October 18, 2007
Help Blackfive Win a Scholarship
Collegescholarship.org has a $10,000 scholarship for bloggers that are also full-time students. There are 20 finalists, and for whatever odd reason, they've decided to let voters decide who should win.
Frankly, I don't know 19 of them and they may very well be nice people, but the 20th I do know, and I think that he deserves your vote. His name is Matthew Burden, but you'd probably more familiar with him if I simply called him Blackfive. So, like, go vote.Posted by: Confederate Yankee at 05:35 PM | Comments (22) | Add Comment | Trackbacks (Suck)
I'm surprised there are only 1,300 or so votes for him so far. I guess people haven't woken up yet.
Posted by: memomachine at October 19, 2007 08:56 AM (3pvQO)
Posted by: SGT Jeff (USAR) at October 19, 2007 10:45 AM (yiMNP)
Posted by: SGT Jeff (USAR) at October 19, 2007 10:47 AM (yiMNP)
Posted by: Suzi at October 19, 2007 04:00 PM (0px9S)
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at October 19, 2007 05:52 PM (HcgFD)
He Taxes Me (And You)
According to The Politico, Deomcratic Congressman Charles Rangel wants to engage in a two-front tax war.
Is it because he's trying to expand his beachhead?Posted by: Confederate Yankee at 11:52 AM | Comments (21) | Add Comment | Trackbacks (Suck)
Posted by: daleyrocks at October 19, 2007 11:03 AM (0pZel)
Iraqi Geezer: 1 Suicide Bomber: 0
Doing the jobs that Americans won't do...
Rebecca Aquilar would presumably not approve.
A 72-year-old man stopped a suspected suicide bomber from detonating himself at a checkpoint in Arab Jabour Oct. 14. The man approached a checkpoint where Mudhehr Fayadh Baresh was standing guard, but did not make it very far. Baresh, a tribal commissioner and member of the Arab Jabour Concerned Citizens program, said he ordered the man to lift his shirt - using training received from Coalition Forces - when he did not recognize him as a local villager. The suspect refused to lift his shirt. Baresh repeated the command again, and the suspect exposed his suicide vest, running toward the checkpoint. Baresh opened fire which caused the vest to detonate, killing the suspect.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at 11:41 AM | Comments (26) | Add Comment | Trackbacks (Suck)
Posted by: iconoclast at October 18, 2007 03:27 PM (wdrwi)
Lt. Col. Kenneth Adgie, commander of the 1st Battalion, 30th Infantry Regiment presented Mudher with a battalion coin for his valor Oct. 16.
Posted by: grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr at October 18, 2007 04:17 PM (gkobM)
Posted by: C-C-G at October 18, 2007 07:08 PM (ufhAS)
Posted by: ExUrbanKevin at October 18, 2007 07:13 PM (ySQlS)
When Journalists Attack
Quite a lot of people are ripping the behavior of Dallas, TX KDFW-TV reporter Rebecca Aquilar right now and deservedly so. The journalist ambushed 70-year-old Army veteran James Walton as he got into his car, and bullied him into tears. She has since been suspended.
Why? Walton is owner of Able Walton Machine & Welding in West Dallas, a salvage business where he lives in an upstairs apartment, that has been robbed no less than 42 times. On September 22, at about 2:00 AM, Walton shot a man who was breaking in through a pried-open window. The man later died. Three weeks later on October 14 at 9:00 AM, Walton shot and killed another thief who had broken in. After each shooting, Dallas police, as a matter of policy, processed each firearm used as evidence for the grand jury, meaning that a victimized Walton had to purchase yet another firearm with which to defend his life and besieged property. It was as he was leaving the store after purchasing this replacement shotgun (a Remington according to the box markings) that Aquilar staged her ambush:Stereotypes become stereotypes because of behavior recreated and witnessed enough times that the behavior witnessed is thought to be a group norm. I've witnessed it firsthand in the aftermath of an armed standoff with hostages. Minutes after the suspect surrendered himself, a television reporter with cameraman in tow came inside the building and started peppering the just-released hostages with questions, jabbing at them and I with a microphone. As news consumers, we've seen other instances of this ambush style of journalism, as other journalists have perfected it in both local and national media. And there are instances where an ambush style of journalism is indeed warranted, such as confronting con artists or corrupt CEOs. But where journalists have failed the moral test is when they lost basic human empathy, and begin treating citizens as suspects, and victims as criminals, as Aguilar does here, without apparent remorse. This was horrific, but only grossly atypical in that the lopsided assault was broadcast in its entirety, and not edited. It seems that what has happened to journalism is that far too many journalists have placed the importance of the story they would like to tell as the foremost thought in their minds, and made both facts and people subservient to that agenda. They've traded their empathy for an angle, and honest journalism for advocacy.
I was struck by reporter Rebecca Aguilar's body-language, literally standing over him in judgment with tailored suit and umbrella. The way she looked down, literally and figuratively, on an old man who had defended his life, entirely legally, and reduced him to tears seems to me to be representative of the worst stereotypes of Old Media.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at 10:12 AM | Comments (43) | Add Comment | Trackbacks (Suck)
Posted by: 1sttofight at October 18, 2007 10:56 AM (09fn4)
A 70 year old is forced to defend his home and his livelihood by killing somebody twice in three weeks. Do we send a reporter to go after a city council who ignores the crime problem? No, of course not, it's gun owner that's to blame here!
I'd like to think this is an infrequent occurrence, but my experience with local news here tells me it's a nationwide problem.
Posted by: ExUrbanKevin at October 18, 2007 10:59 AM (H3hpv)
Let me make a wild guess. The two dead perps were Hispanic.
While one of the dead criminals was Hispanic, I think you're jumping the gun stating that this journalistic assualt may be racially motivated.
As for sending a reporter to talk to Mr. Walton, I'd say that is expected, because the circumstances were indeed newsworthy. It is extraordinary that he was targeted for more than 40 break-ins, it is newsworthy that he was forced to shoot criminals twice, and extraordinary that those shooting happened in such a compressed period of time.
My argument is with how the interview was conducted.
Aquilar would have likely gotten a much better interview if she had thought to bring along a human soul (perhaps she could have borrowed one) so that she could have at least faked empathy for what Mr. Walton has gone through. He would likely have been far more receptive to a reporter that was able to display at least a passing concern for what he has gone through.
Instead, Aquilar tries to make Mr. Walton into a thug, but in so doing, reveals that she is the monster. She's getting hte attention--and the kind of attention--she deserves.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at October 18, 2007 11:15 AM (WwtVa)
Posted by: Skip at October 18, 2007 12:04 PM (KSXNV)
I'm willing to bet Ms. Aquilar wouldn't be as in your face with an Hispanic shooter in the same situation. Her sympathies, I'm sure, lie not with the shooter but with the shooting victims[criminals]. Otherwise her abrasive, in your face, passion wouldn't have distorted her judgment, in my opinion.
Didn't she win an award as the Hispanic community's best journalist or something?
Posted by: Andy B at October 18, 2007 12:28 PM (q1S2A)
Ask any good trial lawyer - different witnesses are to be questioned differently.
Posted by: Mikey NTH at October 18, 2007 01:45 PM (O9Cc8)
He's also a businessman. Why not ask for an interview at his business/residence? Because he probably would tell them to get lost and they would lose the "ambush" impact. Disgraceful.
Posted by: capitano at October 18, 2007 01:49 PM (+NO33)
Posted by: Mr Kufr at October 18, 2007 03:22 PM (TOv/+)
Posted by: dmartin at October 18, 2007 03:47 PM (NspXU)
What profession is the most despised in America?
Lawyer
Politician (or is that redundant)
News Reporter
70 Year Old Store Owner
Posted by: Mekan at October 18, 2007 04:11 PM (hm8tW)
She reads her voice overs & conducts interviews in the "whitest" accent you've ever heard...right up until she signs off. She says "Rebecca" in the same accent (like her last name is going to be Johnson or Smith), then emhasizes..AQ-EEE-LARRRR (roll those "R's" baby).
Good grief.
I'm pretty sure she was the inspiration for Family Guy's "Asian reporter, Trisha Takanawa."
Posted by: Lamontyoubigdummy at October 18, 2007 04:11 PM (ydAF3)
What she said warranted a slap in the mouth and I'm only sorry the man didn't have his woman with him to tell "AQ-EEE-LARRRR" exactly that.
Posted by: Cindi at October 18, 2007 05:03 PM (asVsU)
Posted by: Mikey NTH at October 18, 2007 01:45 PM I'm not sure there is such a thing.
Posted by: Stashiu3 at October 18, 2007 07:09 PM (pf8ao)
It is stunning how TNR has learned nothing. The DVD included commentary by the director and by Chuck Lane, who replaced Michael Kelly as editor. Most of the commentary dealt with how the movie script was pieced together from actual events and transcripts of recorded conversations. Considering how painful it must have been for Lane who confronted and fired Glass, they went to great lengths to detail the sources for everything and to describe amalgams of events and characters.
It doesn't present a very flattering picture of TNR then, and given its history and the lessons that should have been learned, even less flattering today. Interestingly, one of the checks that broke down was that Glass had a romantic relationship with a co-worker who had approval authority over his work and he built similar, non-romantic relationships with other fact checkers.
Remind you of anyone?
Posted by: capitano at October 18, 2007 08:39 PM (+NO33)
Posted by: Purple Avenger at October 19, 2007 08:30 AM (6Yy5p)
Posted by: fretless at October 19, 2007 11:18 AM (twzGk)
WE can voice our opposition to this kind of reporting with them.
(swiped from mypetjawa.mu.nu)
FOX4 News director Maria.Barrs@foxtv.com
FOX4 Vice President and General Manager Kathy.Saunders@foxtv.com
Main Telephone: 214.720.4444
Main e-Mail: kdfw@kdfwfox4.com
Dallas Newsroom: 214.720.3154
Dallas Newsroom Fax: 214.720-3263, 214.720.3333
Posted by: mrclark at October 19, 2007 01:01 PM (DzyqG)
Sorry Rebecca, your award notwithstanding, you're a little too morena to appear on cable.
Posted by: John S. at October 19, 2007 06:09 PM (gq1+F)
To take a cue from Instapundit, maybe it's time for bloggers to start conducting ambush interviews of journalists and their bosses.
Posted by: pst314 at October 19, 2007 07:10 PM (lCxSZ)
Posted by: DJITMOTRoad-STHH at October 19, 2007 09:55 PM (OdPXf)
We'll find out pretty quick that the 1st amendment isn't quite what we think it is ;->
Posted by: Purple Avenger at October 21, 2007 01:22 AM (6Yy5p)
October 17, 2007
Media Laments Lost Opportunities in Iraq
Estes Thompson and Mike Baker of the Associated Press note that America's all volunteer military isn't taking advantage of opportunities the way their predecessors did:
You can almost feel their pain. Update: Wretchard looks into what the "experts" cited in this story got wrong.
American troops killed their own commanders so often during the Vietnam War that the crime earned its own name - "fragging." But since the start of the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, the military has charged only one soldier with killing his commanding officer, a dramatic turnabout that most experts attribute to the all-volunteer military. [snip] Both Roland and Anderson said today's all-volunteer military, compared with soldiers being forced into duty in Vietnam, is the primary reason why fragging attacks are almost nonexistent in Iraq and Afghanistan. The conditions in Iraq are also much less conducive to the crime, Roland said. "There's not as much isolated operation," Roland said. "One of the things about Vietnam was the extremes of small-unit activity, where a squad or platoon would go out on patrol and it was just them and the jungle. They were out of sight of other Americans. "In Iraq, you never know when a helicopter might be going over or a newsman comes along," he said.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at 04:26 PM | Comments (38) | Add Comment | Trackbacks (Suck)
Posted by: Sara at October 17, 2007 04:43 PM (hGL+y)
Not that that would be an entirely bad thing, mind you. But ridiculous in the event.
Cordially...
Posted by: Rick at October 17, 2007 05:16 PM (L/ClK)
Posted by: 1sttofight at October 17, 2007 05:53 PM (09fn4)
Posted by: Scrapiron at October 17, 2007 05:57 PM (AiJXe)
Posted by: SGT Jeff (USAR) at October 17, 2007 06:37 PM (yiMNP)
After what they have printed about the military, if I were in the media and in Iraq, I do not think I would be putting ideas in the minds of troops who have lost buddies in the field. That whole campaign to smear the troops was not very well thought out.
Posted by: capitano at October 17, 2007 07:16 PM (+NO33)
You assume that lefties are capable of intelligent thought. I've seen no evidence of such, and plenty of evidence to the contrary. One capable of intelligent thought would have checked to see if Glocks were used only by the Iraqi police, to cite but one example.
Posted by: C-C-G at October 17, 2007 07:47 PM (ufhAS)
Liberal (adj.) [lib-er-uh / lib-ruhl] 1. a sufferer of grand delusions, usually manifesting on narcissistic personal behavior and nihilistic social outlook or intent, often combined with pathological lying and other deceitful behaviors; 2. one who is exceptionally bad at math and lacks a basic comprehension of probability; 3. an economic parasite.
Posted by: redherkey at October 17, 2007 07:49 PM (kjqFg)
I wonder if there is a term for "killing stupid reporters because they really P!$$ED me off?" I think I'd call it 'Fair and Balanced'.
Posted by: fretless at October 17, 2007 08:09 PM (UGwVK)
Posted by: C-C-G at October 17, 2007 08:32 PM (ufhAS)
The motives involved had less to do with incompetent leaders being removed by seasoned grunts (though such incidents certainly took place), and more to do with racial tension and stoned draftees vs hardnosed lifers. Most of these incidents took place in the rear, not in combat, where shared danger tended to put the drug and racial BS on the backburner.
Anyway, all this "fragging" stuff has been thoroughly documented over the years (see, for example, the official USMC histories of the role of the Marine Corps in the Vietnam War).
In other words, this subject is not a liberal invention. Sheesh!
Posted by: PITA at October 17, 2007 08:37 PM (18+Bi)
"You can almost feel their pain."
Definitely not. They seem to be excreting a large brick, rasp-edged and hard-fired. PITA's doing the same thing, hence its acronym. Soon to be PRB for P**nf*l R*ct*l Bl**d*ng, caused by passing a cheese grater from admitting victory in Iraq.
Tuck's™ are recommended for soothing relief.
Posted by: G. Loater at October 17, 2007 08:47 PM (42wFw)
Didn't say anything about Iraq. Incidentally, I interpreted the article in question as comparing the professionalism of the all-volunteer military in Iraq with the demoralized draftees of the latter days of the Vietnam War.
So, please, no more comments about excreting bricks and cheese graters and such. Weird.
Posted by: PITA at October 17, 2007 09:27 PM (18+Bi)
For those of you too young to remember what it was really like during those years, I suggest that you read up on it, and especially look at the newspapers at the time. The louder the hippies screamed brotherhood and love, the bigger the riots and the hotter our cities burned. We were as close to anarchy in this country as any time in our history. Those in the military were increasingly characterized by an unfriendly press as the enemy. I don't think I was ever angrier than I was when the orders came down that servicemen were no longer allowed to wear their uniforms in public--because of the danger to those who were serving. I come from a military family; that was a bitter pill to swallow.
It took years of dedication for us to rebuild our military into the proud force it is today. Those who want to reinstitute the draft want to wipe those years away and leave us with the mess it was after Viet Nam. Their motivation is just the same as it was back then.
It might help to remember that the military isn't above the problems of the society that produces it.
Posted by: saltydog at October 18, 2007 12:05 AM (uTZSB)
Posted by: daleyrocks at October 18, 2007 12:37 AM (0pZel)
Would you care to provide actual evidence of that claim?
Or even factual backup for a claim of "scores"?
Do you know how many junior officers even SERVED in-country in Viet Nam? Or what percentage of them "hundreds" would be?
Apply some Preperation H for that brick of bull that just dropped out of your mouth.
Posted by: DaveP. at October 18, 2007 06:31 AM (mjjwA)
Documentation? Okay, let's turn to Chapter 4 of AMERICA IN VIETNAM by Guenter Lewy (a very pro-military book, by the way), which cites these numbers from a Congressional Investigation into U.S. Army fraggings in Vietnam: 126 incidents in 1969 (with 37 deaths), 271 incidents in 1970 (with 34 deaths), and 333 incidents in 1971 (with 12 deaths).
These are only U.S. Army fraggings in Vietnam. The U.S. Marine Corps also had its share (almost all were racial in motivation) in 1969-71, as documented in the official USMC histories of the Vietnam War.
Many rear areas were descending into anarchy in Vietnam in 1969-71. Hey, man, these were bad times for the country and the military. Race hatred, drug abuse, generational and cultural splits, ad naseum. One symptom was fragging. It was real. It was not an invention of the Left.
Posted by: PITA at October 18, 2007 08:03 AM (18+Bi)
Posted by: BohicaTwentyTwo at October 18, 2007 08:40 AM (oC8nQ)
Posted by: willis at October 18, 2007 12:36 PM (jyN1i)
"Surge" Drawdown to Begin in December
Robert Burns of the Associated Press notes that the beginning of the end of the "surge" will begin in Iraq in December in Diyala province:
The 3rd Brigade's area of operation will be added to the 4th Stryker Brigade of the 2nd Infantry Division, and will provide something of a test-bed to see if Iraqi security forces really can "step up as we stand down." American forces will still be ready to assist Iraqi police, 1920s (former insurgents) militiamen, and Iraqi Army units in this province that was the scene of a U.S. invasion just months ago. al Qaeda and the Islamic State of Iraq (ISI) had declared Diyala's capital of Baqubah their base, and had pledged a Fallujah-like defense that would extract heavy casualties from invading U.S. forces. Instead, the 1920s turned on their former allies, and helped allied U.S. and Iraqi Army forces in Operation Arrowhead Ripper, an operation that saw more than 200 al Qaeda killed and more than 100 arrested. Baqauba and Diyala have had comparatively low levels of insurgent activity since Arrowhead Ripper completed August 19. Only time will tell if Iraqi security forces (Iraqi Police, Iraqi Army, and 1920s militiamen) will be able to maintain the relative peace in the months ahead, which may be seen as a barometer of how effective "surge" operations have been in dislodging insurgents and terrorists from civilian populations.
Commanders in Iraq have decided to begin the drawdown of U.S. forces in volatile Diyala province, marking a turning point in the U.S. military mission, The Associated Press has learned. Instead of replacing the 3rd Brigade of the 1st Cavalry Division, which is returning to its home base at Fort Hood, Texas, in December, soldiers from another brigade in Salahuddin province next door will expand into Diyala, thereby broadening its area of responsibility, several officials said Tuesday. In this way, the number of Army ground combat brigades in Iraq will fall from 20 to 19. This reflects President Bush's bid to begin reducing the American military force and shifting its role away from fighting the insurgency toward more support functions like training and advising Iraqi security forces.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at 11:24 AM | Comments (25) | Add Comment | Trackbacks (Suck)
Posted by: Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr at October 17, 2007 04:40 PM (gkobM)
Posted by: iconoclast at October 17, 2007 07:06 PM (IAKPF)
Posted by: davidp at October 17, 2007 08:48 PM (ihAc/)
Posted by: C-C-G at October 17, 2007 08:59 PM (ufhAS)
Bush "Surge" Wrecks Portion of Iraqi Economy
Women, children, and minorities not hardest hit.
I say it tongue firmly in cheek. The authors of the McClatchy article, however, seem quite sincere.I'll look forward for McClatchy's future article on the bleak jobs outlook for IED emplacers.
A drop in violence around Iraq has cut burials in the huge Wadi al Salam cemetery here by at least one-third in the past six months, and that's cut the pay of thousands of workers who make their living digging graves, washing corpses or selling burial shrouds. Few people have a better sense of the death rate in Iraq . "I always think of the increasing and decreasing of the dead," said Sameer Shaaban, 23, one of more than 100 workers who specialize in ceremonially washing the corpses. "People want more and more money, and I am one of them, but most of the workers in this field don't talk frankly, because they wish for more coffins, to earn more and more."
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at 07:27 AM | Comments (25) | Add Comment | Trackbacks (Suck)
Posted by: Banjo at October 17, 2007 08:20 AM (1DQ52)
Posted by: Bandit at October 17, 2007 08:29 AM (nX3lF)
Posted by: ajacksonian at October 17, 2007 09:05 AM (oy1lQ)
Posted by: C-C-G at October 17, 2007 09:53 AM (ufhAS)
Posted by: Nathan Tabor at October 18, 2007 11:43 PM (mvnDa)
October 16, 2007
Newton Was a Fascist
Air America's Jon Elliott quickly succumbed to paranoia last night, claiming that his fellow Air America host Randi Rhodes would be out of work because of an attack that he claims was more than a mugging:
Elliott was extremely agitated when he reported on the incident. He opened his show by saying "it is with sadness that tonight I inform you that my Air America colleague Randi Rhodes was assaulted last night while walking her dog near her New York City home." Pointing out that Rhodes was wearing a jogging suit and displayed no purse or jewelry, Elliott speculated that "this does not appear to me to be a standard grab the money and run mugging." "Is this an attempt by the right wing hate machine to silence one of our own," he asked. "Are we threatening them. Are they afraid that we're winning. Are they trying to silence intimidate us."
The problem with this theory, other than Elliott's delusion of relevance, was the fact that Rhodes wasn't mugged, and wasn't assaulted. She fell. Meet gravity, ladies and gentlemen: the newest member of the Vast Right Wing Conspiracy.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at 01:59 PM | Comments (114) | Add Comment | Trackbacks (Suck)
And clearly, the sidewalk was split and cracked due to excessive weathering caused by global warming. All of this wouldn't have happened if Dumbya's Supreme Court stooges hadn't stolen the election from Gore.
Posted by: ExUrbanKevin at October 16, 2007 02:07 PM (gQtiD)
Posted by: km at October 16, 2007 02:09 PM (6N7Ny)
Posted by: Jimmy's Attack Rabbit at October 16, 2007 02:20 PM (tr2VI)
Posted by: mindnumbrobot at October 16, 2007 02:32 PM (d5LvD)
The rest of you, carry on with getting the leftoids spinning. Don't stop until they're at 15,000 RPM and screaming.
Posted by: BlacquesJacquesShellacques at October 16, 2007 02:55 PM (e/R6a)
a)how long it takes talking radio to correct this post and
b) how its all the evil conservatives fault anyway?
Posted by: Ryan Frank at October 16, 2007 02:59 PM (j0mjH)
Posted by: Retread at October 16, 2007 03:00 PM (P/AfD)
Posted by: Dan Irving at October 16, 2007 03:40 PM (zw8QA)
Posted by: Techie at October 16, 2007 04:06 PM (T+8Gr)
Posted by: Banjo at October 16, 2007 05:15 PM (1DQ52)
Posted by: David at October 16, 2007 05:35 PM (F/MNL)
Posted by: sickboy at October 16, 2007 06:17 PM (S4Q5o)
Since he was reporting on his radio show, is there an explanation for how anybody found out about it?
Posted by: VRWC Agent at October 16, 2007 09:52 PM (Z3AmO)
Success in Iraq = defeat.
Taking more money from hard working Americans = the road to prosperity.
Insulting one of our allies (Turkey) = good diplomacy.
Why not fall = mugging?
Posted by: C-C-G at October 16, 2007 09:55 PM (ufhAS)
(I never heard of her before today.)
Posted by: MikeM at October 16, 2007 10:13 PM (nyO8l)
Posted by: Mekan at October 17, 2007 09:09 AM (hm8tW)
Posted by: David Caskey at October 17, 2007 10:17 AM (G5i3t)
#$#%^ you David! I spit coffee out my nose when I read that punchline! Hope I didn't ruin my computer....
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Posted by: Watermanrr at October 17, 2007 07:04 PM (Bow2a)
The Daily Kos diarists haven't allowed the truth behind Rhodes' accident to mitigate their anger. Kos diarist WinSmith, in a remarkably ignorant and intellectually incoherent essay even by Daily Kos standards, defended the progressive rush to judgment:
Who assassinated John Kennedy (D), Robert Kennedy (D) and Martin Luther King? Was it "liberals"? I think not When talk show personalities paint one side of the aisle as a "Fifth Column," as threatening to destroy the country from within, as threatening the very fabric of America, don't be surprised when unhinged listeners take it upon themselves to "do something" about it. So if we jump the gun and assume another unhinged "patriot" fired up by Sean Hannity's hate speech decided to "do something," it's a god damned reasonable assumption.
And they claim to be "reality-based."
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Thanks For the History Lesson
I value the writers' service and their opinions as soldiers who have served in Iraq, but wouldn't this editorial have meant more if the Washington Post had managed to find soldiers to write it who had actually been in in Iraq in the last year?
Only two of the 12 captains had been in Iraq as late as 2006, with the rest all departing in 2005 or before. None of them are currently on active duty. While their opinions are valuable from a historical perspective based upon what they've seen while they served, they hardly seem to be best qualified to be able to comment upon the current situation on the ground in Iraq, as it has changed so radically since the last of them departed. Those officers who are serving in Iraq currently have quite a different opinion. When is the Post going to ask them to pen an editorial?Posted by: Confederate Yankee at 07:25 AM | Comments (185) | Add Comment | Trackbacks (Suck)
When is the Post going to ask them to pen an editorial?
My guess? Just a few minutes after never.
I imagine we'll be seeing more such editorials, from brave and well-meaning former soldiers who nevertheless have not been in Iraq recently enough to see the progress of the last ten to twelve months.
Posted by: Mike at October 16, 2007 08:50 AM (1Yni/)
Posted by: Obvious at October 16, 2007 09:22 AM (r7Vht)
Posted by: Jon at October 16, 2007 09:25 AM (1Nv9S)
Posted by: Frederick at October 16, 2007 09:27 AM (IurQs)
I was last in Iraq about a month ago, and I agree with the point of this post.
The subjects and problems in the linked editorial are real and significant. The contextualized question is, how has the battelspace changed in the last year (significantly) and how much corruption, etc., can Iraq live with and still obtain a good outcome (an open question).
I'll give you a specific example of how things can change in a year. In January, the Iraqi general in charge of the IA in Fallujah was so corrupt that he might have been stealing 50% of payroll and was funneling weapons to militias in Baghdad. At the end of that month, Marines fed a story to the media about him, and he fled command after his theft was outed. He was then replaced by a new commander who proceeded to minimize corruption to acceptable levels and do a great job with security.
If one had left that scene at the end of 2006, not only would security be a different world from what it is today, but so would many of the corruption issues. Thus, it helps to have fresh perspective, especially when it comes to an uptick in local security and all that flows from that.
Posted by: Bill from INDC at October 16, 2007 09:40 AM (yZMsp)
A better question is, did these men sign up for the war just so they could criticize it, a la Beauchamp?
Posted by: Xanthippas at October 16, 2007 09:40 AM (018Z+)
Posted by: Bill from INDC at October 16, 2007 09:41 AM (yZMsp)
Actually, Xanthippas, that's a stupid question unless you have some evidence to support asking it. do you?
Posted by: Pablo at October 16, 2007 09:50 AM (yTndK)
And the last time you were in Iraq was when, exactly?
Wow. I never saw that coming. It never ceases to amaze me that leftists always bravely trot out that old saw, as if it is even slightly germane to the conversation at hand.
It is the Washington Post that makes an appeal to authority based upon the service of these twelve captains in Iraq. It is therefore logical to note that if service in Iraq is the most important criteria (as the WaPo obviously thought in listing their service), then it is only logical that those with the most recent experiences--those there now--would be the best informed and higher authorities based upon their own internal logic. I don't necessarily agree with that line of reasoning as an absolute, but this is their argument, not mine.
Does playing out this line of logic to the rational end invalidate the experiences of these twelve captains, or "smear" them, as the more dishonest members of the blogosphere opine? Not in the least. Their experiences are indeed very valid and valuable, as was their service to our nation, and their service is something we should respect them for.
They are penning an editorial based upon past experiences that are in some instances 3-4 years old, and none of these captains have been in Iraq since 2006. Their past experiences are just that: past experiences.
None of their opinions are wrong or invalid in any way, but they are based upon old experiences, and they are writing about a political, security and social situation that apparently no longer exists as they knew it.
Those soldiers who are currently serving in Iraq after the "awakening" movement has blossomed across the country, particularly within the past few months, are probably in a better position to judge the condition of the mission, the validity of claimed cultural shifts, and the actual security situation on the ground.
If the editors of the Washington Post want an honest assessment of the current situation on the ground, it would seem logical to make the attempt to contact soldiers who are currently serving.
Or are you going to argue against that as well?
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at October 16, 2007 09:54 AM (EPsu8)
Posted by: Scrapiron at October 16, 2007 10:07 AM (d/RyS)
I know you have a wingnut blog to run here, but have some pride, willya? This war has been flogged as a success from jump and the exact opposite has been true every year that goes by. You've bought every line, including this latest one. When will you dead-enders learn you're being strung along and that your perspective on Iraq is an article of faith?
There is no central government in Iraq, we have been reduced to bargaining with the tribes. This may cause a temporary reduction in violence, but to what end? Instead of covering what the stupid Washington Post does(and endlessly accusing a corporate media run by fat cats of "liberal" bias, ha ha ha), why don't you tell your readers the truth about this mighty experiment in democracy?
I dunno. I was in Iraq in 2003 and 2004, I guess my opinion, even though I keep up prodigiously with news from there, is not of any use.
Posted by: Ron at October 16, 2007 10:30 AM (lTEGm)
Six straight months of reducing American casualties, since the peak in May 2007. September was the fifth lowest since the start of the war. October is already much lower than September. Iraqi civilian casualties down dramatically, and since Feb 2006 Iraqi civilians were AQI's biggest target. IED attacks also down dramatically. Is the surge working? Appears that it is.
Will those invested in our defeat in Iraq become more and more strident? Already happening.
Posted by: CoRev at October 16, 2007 10:52 AM (0U8Ob)
As for the "trend" in Iraq the year 2007 will be the highestdeath toll ever.
Posted by: John Ryan at October 16, 2007 10:57 AM (TcoRJ)
What about the hundreds of media accounts noting declining military, civilian, and police casualties, fewer bombings, etc? Have they all been co-opted by the evil BushCo regime as well?
You are entitled to your opinion, Ron, but I think the troops I talk to both officially and off the record, in conjunction with accounts from actual Iraqis and respected journalists who are actually in Iraq, are in a much better position to tell me what is going on now, becuase they are there, now.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at October 16, 2007 10:59 AM (ScOBm)
PS: "Polished my resume" for 28 years in the air force and retired as a colonel after turning down a command job because I could no longer bear working for Rumsfeld/Bush.
Posted by: jeff at October 16, 2007 11:13 AM (Z8kfp)
I got a grand says that is not the case. Are you confident enough in your assertion to back it with green? Any mutually agreeable 3rd party can hold the money.
Posted by: Purple Avenger at October 16, 2007 11:21 AM (6Yy5p)
Posted by: Purple Avenger at October 16, 2007 11:22 AM (6Yy5p)
There are men who have joined the military for ulterior motives, to be be sure, but those are mercifully few. Those serving in our military can come to radically different opinions of whether or not a certain conflict is worth fighting without being dishonest.
Please keep that in mind when you write, folks.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at October 16, 2007 11:28 AM (ScOBm)
Posted by: BohicaTwentyTwo at October 16, 2007 11:29 AM (oC8nQ)
Posted by: jay k. at October 16, 2007 11:48 AM (yu9pS)
Scrapiron, please tell me that was just a typo/thinko on your part.
Posted by: Grumpy Code Monkey at October 16, 2007 12:01 PM (YZab5)
Posted by: daleyrocks at October 16, 2007 12:12 PM (0pZel)
However I do believe that we're going to be in Iraq well beyond 2010. The reconstruction effort, if you can call it that, has been an unmitigated disaster and we have not heard good news on that front at any point during this war. Not ever.
The only thing the surge did was, in small measure, render troop numbers a nudge closer to the strength they should have been from the outset. Too late? Maybe not. I hope for the sake of the Iraqis' lives we've ruined that it isn't. But troop strength alone isn't going to win this "war." And it's going to take several more years even to see if a stable future is on the horizon.
I remain concerned what's going to happen when the surge again draws down, which it must. The vacuum this creates will be very dangerous to the Iraqi people.
There are two beacons of hope in this conflict. One, the Iraqis themselves seem to be in the midst of an awakening, as you point out. Please let that continue.
Two, in a little more than a year the Republicans will be in the minority across the board, which is a very very good thing. They have shown they truly have no idea what they're doing, and Iraq is the most prominent representation of their incompetence. Should the stability situation improve in Iraq, we're going to need the best minds in the country working on this effort. Bush and the GOP have contented themselves with loyal ideologues in their stead.
Posted by: David I at October 16, 2007 12:15 PM (oykvW)
They invoke the tired "chickenhawk" meme for any civilian that dares logical point out the fact that the soldiers in the Post editorial are basing their editorial on personal experiences years old, and when active-duty military personnel speak of progress--and that is the majority tone of soldiers currently in combat units in Iraq--you insinuate that they are not free to speak their minds, and are spouting propaganda, not so discretely insinuating that only those veterans who are agains the war are honest.
There is certainly dishonesty and prejudice, jay k, but it is my opinion that those who "support" their arguments by attempting to smear anyone who disagrees are the ones blocking debate, and while both sides do it to varying degrees, I see more of that coming from those on the left..
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at October 16, 2007 12:26 PM (EPsu8)
Debate the issue intelligently. If you only namecall, then you will find your comments deleted.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at October 16, 2007 12:31 PM (EPsu8)
Posted by: Frederick at October 16, 2007 12:40 PM (IurQs)
And you know that these twelve captains have no contact with troops that are there, now, how exactly?
And don't think we haven't noticed that you didn't offer any objection to the claims of the op-ed, just to the authors.
Posted by: sitnam at October 16, 2007 12:40 PM (ONTnT)
Obviously, you haven't read the Totten or Yon articles. You really should.
Posted by: BohicaTwentyTwo at October 16, 2007 12:45 PM (oC8nQ)
There are, of course, other active-duty, in-country opinions that concur as well.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at October 16, 2007 12:56 PM (EPsu8)
David, this kind of news is not reported in the MSM but it *is* reported. MNF-Iraq.com has a section dedicated to reconstruction efforts. But stuff like 'Increased power generation to 1.3 million homes' and 'Added 540,000 cubic meters per day of water treatment capacity (benefits an estimated 3.1 million Iraqis)' just doesn't sell enough ad space.
http://www.mnf-iraq.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=13428&Itemid=47
Posted by: Dan Irving at October 16, 2007 12:58 PM (zw8QA)
Posted by: sitnam at October 16, 2007 01:03 PM (ONTnT)
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at October 16, 2007 01:10 PM (EPsu8)
Looks like someone missed the TNR, Beauchamp, polish his resume, scandal.
Posted by: Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr at October 16, 2007 01:29 PM (gkobM)
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at October 16, 2007 01:38 PM (EPsu8)
CY - sometimes it's just hard to get people to jump through the intellectual hoops required of logical thought.
CY isn't 'attacking' the officers.
The WaPo is basically saying, "Look, these guys were in Iraq! Their opinion matters."
CY merely took their argument to it's logical conclusion by stating "Look, these guys ARE in Iraq! Their opinion matters more."
He didn't state the officers opinions were invalid. He merely pointed out that reality for these guys was based off past experiences while the reality for the people he sources are based of current experiences. Sure, the officers could be in contact with comrades over in Iraq but that is moot, second-hand experience. Not illegitimate mind you, but since it's not personal it isn't germane to this discussion.
Posted by: Dan Irving at October 16, 2007 01:39 PM (zw8QA)
You are aware, for example, that there is currently more electricity per day in most of Iraq than pre-liberation.
Posted by: Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr at October 16, 2007 01:40 PM (gkobM)
Posted by: he at October 16, 2007 01:48 PM (hBa5w)
Comments from the Department of Redundancy Department. What you said is this:
I think the troops I talk to both officially and off the record, in conjunction with accounts from actual Iraqis and respected journalists who are actually in Iraq, are in a much better position to tell me what is going on now, becuase they are there, now.
The message there is that you know more about what is going on in Iraq than those who were there in 2005 & 2006, despite not being there yourself, because of your contacts in-country now. This only makes sense if you assume that those same captains whose opinion you discount do not have contacts in-country as you do. Either that or you assume that these captains are ignoring all the sunny news they are getting from the enlisted and officers they are in contact with. Of course, if that is in fact your assumption, one wonders what you think their motive would be.
Posted by: sitnam at October 16, 2007 01:52 PM (ONTnT)
http://www.combatreform2.com/johnpaulvann.htm
Posted by: LanceThruster at October 16, 2007 01:54 PM (oviQm)
"Once abandoned streets are now filled with families and budding entrepreneurs who continue to open new small businesses every week. We have made available grants for small businesses in our area and they have become immensely popular as you can imagine. I cannot walk the streets without children asking me for a soccer ball and “chocolate” (meaning any kind of candy) and adults asking for a micro grant application or for the status of the one they already filled out. They use these grants to open new businesses or improve their existing one and it is working well.
Our area now has a men’s fashion store, fish markets, pharmacies, bakeries, and even two new gyms. We recently helped refurbish a once neglected clinic into a first class location for health care. They have a small lab, dentists, a sonogram machine, x-ray machine, and other new equipment. Our medical platoon recently spent several hours with local doctors and nurses treating patients for every day aches and pains with donated medical supplies from a humanitarian organization. I even watched our physician’s assistant pull a watermelon seed out of a young girl’s ear (sound familiar to any one?)."
And this
"Each year, units are given a reenlistment mission inorder to retain good soldiers in the Army. For example, the Squadron had a mission to reenlist two soldiers who are still on their initial enlistment during this fiscal year. Well, we reenlisted forty-two.
While each soldier reenlists for their own personal reasons, I think it is safe to say that these soldiers believe in what they are doing, they see a difference because of their efforts, and they have tremendous NCO leadership. Who wouldn’t want to be a part of that?"
My question is, if the vast majority of the military did not think the war was being won and was winnable why would reenlistment be soo high? I dont get it?
Posted by: Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr at October 16, 2007 02:01 PM (gkobM)
As is your tendency, you are being deceptive in your comparisons.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at October 16, 2007 02:09 PM (EPsu8)
Thugs and assassins
Mission Accomplished
Six More months, then we'll see progress
The oil will pay for itself
Greeted as liberators
etc etc etc etc
Posted by: WasNotWas at October 16, 2007 02:22 PM (DCUPs)
A host of people, military and otherwise, were shouted down before the war when they claimed we would need more troops to complete the job There have been continuous reports that commanders in the field have been clamoring for more and now you put a few more troops in with modest gains and we're on the road to victory?
You know that even more troops would bring more gains, the problem is the American people wouldn't be behind it, especially since it would involve a draft. So, you're pushing a milk toast strategy that will only ensure stalemate until the Democrats are in office.
By the way, I find it hard to believe that you could find a captain back from Iraq who doesn't keep in close contact with his friends there, let alone 12 of them.
Posted by: gsmoove at October 16, 2007 02:23 PM (aYT6A)
Dan, thanks for the link to the wonderful brochure. Those are impressive gains against the destruction of the already-crumbling infrastructure when this group's work was begun IN 2004. They are well short of the targets at this point.
Posted by: David I at October 16, 2007 02:25 PM (oykvW)
It was, the carrier was home after dending the Saddam regime.
Six More months, then we'll see progress
Happened, three elections established a new democratic government
The oil will pay for itself
Well, it might one day but I think you are confused since the war was never about oil
Greeted as liberators
Happened throughout the South and the North (in the vast mojority of Iraq actually).
etc etc etc etc
Care to try again
Posted by: Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr at October 16, 2007 02:26 PM (gkobM)
Right?
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20071016/wl_nm/iraq_shiites_tribes_dc
The war was never about oil? Bwaahahahahahahaaa!
Posted by: WasNotWas at October 16, 2007 02:32 PM (DCUPs)
Well, yeah.
...KALSU, Iraq – The government of Musayyib hosted a celebration of security and economic growth at the city’s police station Oct. 8.
In a move to help reduce sectarian violence in North Babil, leaders from the predominately Shia city of Musayyib came together with sheiks and
representatives of the largely Sunni region of Jurf As Sukhr to share their optimism for the growth and development of the entire area.
With Sunni extremists influence such from the north and west, and rogue Shia militias from the south, the region surrounding Musayyib and Jurf has been a sectarian fault line for years.
With the security celebration in Musayyib, the sectarian tensions are beginning to show real progress.
The chairman of the Musayyib Town Council, Thamir Thaban, and Sheik Fadel Yousif, a representative of the newly formed Jurf As Sukhr government, gave speeches praising the drop in violence and pledged to continue their work together to bring a lasting peace to the region. Thaban is a member of the
Sadrist political movement, while Fadel was once a leader of the Jaish Al Islami.
With these two former enemies coming together, they have created a bond and a possible model for all of Iraq to further reduce the sectarian violence which has plagued the country....
...The war was never about oil?Bwaahahahahahahaaa!...
Ah yes, the impressive intellectualism of the left. "Chomsky said the war was about oil and, since I cant think for myself, it MUST BE TRUE DAMMIT".
Posted by: Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrr at October 16, 2007 02:41 PM (gkobM)
One good story does not make a successful country, you should know that, but it's funny to see war supporters flailing like experimental chimps.
How about the missing billions of dollars? Missing weapons? Tribal leaders consolidating power? Kurdish rebels egging on Turkey?
Oh, but one tiny little town had a good meeting, so I guess the hard work is done.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/iraq
Oh no, in Baghdad no less. b-b-b-but the surger told us the surge worked, yea, no more fighting.
And the screen name, Grrrr, implies lots of deep seeded anger.
Maybe you should have tried harder to get a date in college, then you wouldn't be so bitter now.
Posted by: WasNotWas at October 16, 2007 02:53 PM (DCUPs)
And if our troops weren't chopping so many caiphatemongers in Iraq,*you* wouldn't be so bitter now.
Even-steven, then. A "progressive" ought to be happy.
Cordially...
Posted by: Rick at October 16, 2007 02:58 PM (L/ClK)
Assume two editorials:
One written by 12 captains (now back in the civilian world) who were with II Corps @ Kasserine Pass; second written by 12 captains who were with XV Corps @ Falaise Pocket.
The subject of the editorials: "State of the War as of Falaise Pocket plus one week."
Who's more qualified by experience?
Posted by: BD at October 16, 2007 03:01 PM (ezlAc)
Love to see the anti-war lefties spinning at 15000 rpm. You, I am sure, know that I only cited one of many, many examples of Iraqi leader sitting down and getting it done. It sucks for you because a stable, peacful, democratic Iraq is good for our country and bad for your political masters, but thats the bed you made, now lie in it.
Posted by: Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr at October 16, 2007 03:25 PM (gkobM)
Bawawwaaaaahahahahahaaaaaaa!
I want the drugs you are on, Grrrrr.
Oh, please thrill me with story after story of good news in Iraq. Since there is so much you cannot even keep count, please shower us with links here.
Posted by: WasNotWas at October 16, 2007 03:28 PM (DCUPs)
....A stable peaceful democratic Iraq....
Bawawwaaaaahahahahahaaaaaaa!...
Oh my, another lefty pascifist who thinks a stable, peaceful, democratic Iraq will not be good for the world, no wonder you people brought us 9/11.
Well, I'll leave you with a few links but, since I dont have all day to argue with an E-surgent in his mummys basement, Im afraid you will have to figure out google by yourself if you want more.
From the left leaning, anti-war AP.
...In a major reconciliatory gesture, a leader from Iraq's largest Shiite party paid a rare visit Sunday to the Sunni Anbar province, delivering a message of unity to tribal sheiks who have staged a U.S.-backed revolt against al-Qaida militants....
http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5gFrAeDnwRmhu0qNxNT2aZdFr01TAD8S9A2L00
...Iraq Sees Dramatically Low Death Toll...
http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5gFrAeDnwRmhu0qNxNT2aZdFr01TAD8S9A2L00
And from a lefty British publication
....The tide turns in Basra....
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2007/10/06/nrbasra106.xml
Bummer isnt it?
Posted by: Grrrrrrrrrrrrrr at October 16, 2007 03:48 PM (gkobM)
Posted by: Dan Irving at October 16, 2007 04:00 PM (zw8QA)
Ummm...........aren't soldiers, particularly officers, supposed to keep their political opinions to themselves when they're in the middle of combat? I mean, wouldn't you be criticizing them for that if they were active duty?
Those officers who are serving in Iraq currently have quite a different opinion.
Yet, when you find some who agree with your position, that's ok?
You might want to decide where you stand on this and then stake out that position, rather than constantly shifting for the sake of political convenience.
Posted by: Arlington Acid at October 16, 2007 04:39 PM (4hcww)
Let's all hope for continued improvement over there. Not for our sakes, but for Iraqis' and Middle Eastern residents' sakes alike.
Posted by: David I at October 16, 2007 05:03 PM (oykvW)
The Washington Post
By Jim Golby
Sunday, October 14, 2007; B01
Outside TIKRIT, Iraq
I'm sick of hearing about all the horrible things that happen in Iraq without ever hearing about any of the good ones. That's not because horrible things don't occur here every day; they do. I've witnessed far more death and sadness than I wish anyone ever had to see. And it's not because I believe in some left-wing media conspiracy. If I'm affiliated with a political party at all, I honestly can't remember which one it is.
Rather, I'm sick of hearing about all the horrible things that happen in Iraq because I've been deployed here for more than 24 months since this war began, and I think I have a story to tell that's heroic, maybe even noble. It's not my story. In fact, I'm quite average, and I'm certainly not noble. But I've been blessed to serve with some amazing officers, noncommissioned officers and soldiers who have sacrificed another 15 months away from their families -- and, for once, produced something that I don't think looks all that bad, even in this desolate country.
Not sure how to link properly in these comment sections but here is the link to the piece:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/10/12/AR2007101201888_pf.html
Posted by: Tara at October 16, 2007 05:06 PM (Dqxeq)
The Iraqi Army: "The institutions that oversee them are being reestablished from the top down. And Iraqi leaders are stepping forward....there has been progress in the effort to enable Iraqis to shoulder more of the load for their own security, something they are keen to do." The Iraqi Police: "By early spring, nine academies in Iraq and one in Jordan will be graduating a total of 5,000 police each month from the eight-week course, which stresses patrolling and investigative skills, substantive and procedural legal knowledge, and proper use of force and weaponry, as well as pride in the profession and adherence to the police code of conduct."
Since General Petraeus wrote that oped, the Iraqi Army itself has improved. But we've seen IA "leaders stepping forward" and being fired for it -- if they're competently fighting political allies of the Prime Minister.
The Iraqi Police forces... are a disaster; riddled with sectarian death squad supporters and corruption.
So what exactly has changed that we should now accept the word of the same people who were telling us that things were going great in September 2005?
Posted by: Svejk at October 16, 2007 05:21 PM (XRlI2)
What has changed that we should now accept the word of the same people who were telling us that things were going great in September 2004 ?
Posted by: Svejk at October 16, 2007 05:28 PM (XRlI2)
The Caliphatemongers will surely murder you last, if you do them this favor. Or, permit you to convert. Whatever, infidel.
Cordially...
Posted by: Rick at October 16, 2007 06:19 PM (L/ClK)
The defeatocrats want to believe the ones that were there a year ago, because they paint a gloomy picture.
Realists, on the other hand, accept Iraq as it is now, and accept the reports of those who are currently in-country or have recently (as in less than a month ago) left.
Sort of like asking people who left France prior to the German invasion how things were going in France, as opposed to those who were there after the invasion, ya know.
Posted by: C-C-G at October 16, 2007 08:45 PM (ufhAS)
Where do you get your news about events in Iraq out of curiousity?
Posted by: daleyrocks at October 16, 2007 08:50 PM (0pZel)
Posted by: daleyrocks at October 16, 2007 08:52 PM (0pZel)
http://www.salon.com/news/primary_sources/2007/09/12/times_soldiers/
A follow-up question. Since no doubt you do have an excuse for why the opinions of those 7 should not be heeded, can you imagine any anti-war opinion written by any member of the US military, where you would find the opinion credible and not resort to attacking the messenger?
Posted by: Paul at October 16, 2007 09:54 PM (HCqq7)
"Realists, on the other hand, accept Iraq as it is now, and accept the reports of those who are currently in-country or have recently (as in less than a month ago) left."
So, can you please read this and come back and tell us whether or not you still consider yourself a realist? Or perhaps you'd rather change your definition. One or the other.
http://www.salon.com/news/primary_sources/2007/09/12/times_soldiers/
Posted by: Paul at October 16, 2007 09:56 PM (HCqq7)
As Reagan once said, trust, but verify.
Posted by: C-C-G at October 16, 2007 10:06 PM (ufhAS)
"Paul, given the recent Scott Thomas Beauchamp episode, not to mention Jesse MacBeth, I'd want to see verification of these soldiers' bona fides and independent confirmation (i.e. not in an op-ed piece) of the incidents they report."
I see. So, because you don't like their message, it's best to simply assume that they're lying (and actually, now 2 of them are dead for fighting your war). Case closed. How 'bout those Red Sox?
But I'm wondering, C-C-G, based on what you said about realists listening to soldiers in the field, would you like to modify that statement? Perhaps you meant to say this:
"Realists, on the other hand, accept Iraq as it is now, at least so long as someone is saying that it is now GREAT, and accept the reports of those who are currently in-country or have recently (as in less than a month ago) left, so long as those people are pro-war."
I knew there must be a pat answer to my question. You war supporting dead-enders are good at making sure your echo chamber is, well, echoey.
Posted by: Paul at October 16, 2007 10:10 PM (HCqq7)
Where are the independent sources for the incidents that your seven soldiers report, Paul?
Posted by: C-C-G at October 16, 2007 10:13 PM (ufhAS)
I am curious why the left continues to refer to the right as dead enders when it's ther left has determined that Iraq is a dead end. You are the dead enders in my humble opinion with your constant pessimism and paranoia about what Bush has done to the country. It's a very apt description.
Posted by: daleyrocks at October 16, 2007 10:20 PM (0pZel)
"Where are the independent sources for the incidents that your seven soldiers report, Paul?"
I haven't seen anyone seriously contest the facts of those incidents. I've read about that op-ed and the incidents they report on several right-wing blogs, but not one has contested the substance of their story. If you know some reason why these 7 aren't to be believed (simply the fact that they're critical of the war doesn't count), let's see it.
Posted by: Paul at October 16, 2007 10:21 PM (HCqq7)
Posted by: C-C-G at October 16, 2007 10:23 PM (ufhAS)
"I thought the op-ed was well before September and a good explanation of the point of view expressed therein was that the surge had not yet affected the areas in which the writers were serving at the time."
If that excuse works for you, then enjoy. Of course, there is a big picture beyond military success, that determines the overall success or failure of the mission. But I guess if you narrow your focus down enough, and delude yourself, a vision of success does emerge.
dailyrocks said:
"am curious why the left continues to refer to the right as dead enders when it's ther left has determined that Iraq is a dead end."
Actually, it's a pun on what Cheney said, when describing the Iraqi insurgency as "dead-enders". What a realistic fellow he is! Anyhow, dead-enders have come to mean someone who is fighting a lost cause, and whose worldview has been soundly refuted. In the US, we also call them republicans.
dailyrocks said:
"You are the dead enders in my humble opinion with your constant pessimism and paranoia about what Bush has done to the country."
Ah, I remember a time when Republicans prided themselves on able to take a realistic look at the world, and do what was necessary. Now it's the rose colored glasses. Honestly, if you look at Iraq and think "well, that sure is going well! We're turning a corner! We're on the verge of victory!" then that shows that you have a lot in common with Dick Cheney, but little in common with the other 6 billion of us.
Posted by: Paul at October 16, 2007 10:28 PM (HCqq7)
This brings me back to my earlier question: can you imagine any anti-war opinion written by any member of the US military, where you would find the opinion credible and not resort to attacking the messenger?
Posted by: Paul at October 16, 2007 10:30 PM (HCqq7)
Just wondering, how did you manage to refute the opinions of the 7 active duty soldiers who wrote an op-ed who published an anti-war op-ed in the NY Times in September?
First Paul, the editorial in question wasn't published in September, it was originally published in the NY Times on August 19. Learn to properly cite the primary source. I assure you that it is probably within your capabilities.
As for that editorial, I thought it was very well written, and no doubt accurately reflected the experiences of these soldiers, all serving with the highly-respected 82nd Airborne in Baghdad. What exactly is there to refute? This is what they experienced, and I believe them to be honorable, truthful men.
Perhaps you, like many, would like to forget that comments even more dire were made about al Anbar province just a year prior, and the situational sea-change that has occurred since in no way invalidates the experience of those who served there at the time.
Those soldiers were not attacked, nor were the Captains that published their OpEd today. If you choose to believe otherwise, that is your psychological issue, and not a concern or mine.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at October 16, 2007 10:33 PM (HcgFD)
However, if one allows that a change in strategy or tactics can make a major change in the battlefield, and in a remarkably short time, then perhaps you are intelligent enough to hold a reasonable debate.
Which is it?
Posted by: C-C-G at October 16, 2007 10:33 PM (ufhAS)
Why would I refute what they wrote? Why should I?
I could find 7 people in a city of 150K that thought the city in question was going to hell in a handbasket. Odds are that they wouldn't be lying either.
I could have found 7 soldiers in places such as the Hurtgen Forest in World War II who would have thought what they were doing was hopeless or futile.
That has little to nothing to do with the overall mission or goal.
Posted by: Mark A. Flacy at October 16, 2007 10:34 PM (Ef+b7)
So you're okay with the clusterf**k they describe? That our current policies are often senseless? The notion that the Iraqis want us out and will eventually force our withdrawal? You accept all that and continue to support the war? How?
Perhaps you, like many, would like to forget that comments even more dire were made about al Anbar province just a year prior, and the situational sea-change that has occurred since in no way invalidates the experience of those who served there at the time.
I'm not sure what al Anbar has to do with US military strategy. The turnaround in al Anbar was already beginning well before "the surge" began, and was caused by Iraqi initiative, not as a result of the glorious surge. And in fact, there's reason to believe that al Anbar isn't as lovely as we've been told. Imagine that.
Posted by: Paul at October 16, 2007 10:47 PM (HCqq7)
In September, Iraqi civilian deaths were down 52 percent from August and 77 percent from September 2006, according to the Web site icasualties.org. The Iraqi Health Ministry and the Associated Press reported similar results. U.S. soldiers killed in action numbered 43 -- down 43 percent from August and 64 percent from May, which had the highest monthly figure so far this year. The American combat death total was the lowest since July 2006 and was one of the five lowest monthly counts since the insurgency in Iraq took off in April 2004.
Or are you one who automatically rejects good news from Iraq?
Posted by: C-C-G at October 16, 2007 10:48 PM (ufhAS)
Which is it?
Actually, I'll take Answer C as the correct one: There is no military solution to Iraq, as our military experts agree, and that therefore, all this focus on military gains completely misses the point.
If you can accept that fact, being the opinion of pretty much everyone involved in the mission, then you might be intelligent enough for debate. Let me know.
Posted by: Paul at October 16, 2007 10:49 PM (HCqq7)
The Coalition forces are involved in combating the terrorists, including--but by no means limited to--Al Qaeda. That is the sum total of their mission, unless you support the idea of our military taking over the government of Iraq.
I have seen no military expert with current experience in theatre (i.e. people who have been there during the last month) who says that there is no solution to combating the terrorists in Iraq. If I have missed such, please point them out to me, with links.
Posted by: C-C-G at October 16, 2007 10:56 PM (ufhAS)
Okay, so September's deaths were down from August. And August's deaths? Up from July. Your point being? This month we've Turned The Corner?
When I hear good news from Iraq, you know, a one-off story about something that bucked the general trend and actually went well, I think about all the past pieces of good news that were meant to signify some turning of some proverbial corner. Remember Zarqawi? We killed him and the resistance was expected to dry up completely. Or who can forget those purple fingers? And then there was Bush and the plastic turkey (and the contest on who could tell the difference). Ah, good times, all.
However, the situation has continued to be increasingly dire. Patraeus came on and read the administration-written report that admitted that the surge had failed in its objective. Sure, I could just join you at the Kool Aid trough and discard those objectives in light of newer, easier ones. (Our enormous, top-funded military can beat the crap out of a handful of guys with homemade weapons. Glory be!!) What I'm left to conclude is that the mission was ill-conceived from the start, as has been shown in glaring detail from all the information that has emerged about that decision process, and, as happened with the British, is doomed to -- if not abysmal failure -- then certainly an outcome that couldn't begin to account for the costs. Still, amidst a disaster, good things do occur. That's reality. But excuse me if I don't book my Club Med Baghdad vacation just yet. You go right ahead, though.
Posted by: Paul at October 16, 2007 10:58 PM (HCqq7)
I'm not conflating that at all. You're the one that's doing that. I know that success of the Iraqi democracy represents the goal, and that knocking down "the terrorists" (who just 4 short years ago we used to call "those poor Iraqis") is an interesting side attraction that has little to do with that goal.
Posted by: Paul at October 16, 2007 11:00 PM (HCqq7)
The American combat death total was the lowest since July 2006 and was one of the five lowest monthly counts since the insurgency in Iraq took off in April 2004.
Of course, you will just ignore them again, or dismiss them with a wave of your hand, thus proving that you cannot accept any good news from Iraq.
Posted by: C-C-G at October 16, 2007 11:02 PM (ufhAS)
So please tell me how the armed forces can ever achieve that goal?
Coup, perhaps?
Posted by: C-C-G at October 16, 2007 11:03 PM (ufhAS)
So you're okay with the clusterf**k they describe? That our current policies are often senseless? The notion that the Iraqis want us out and will eventually force our withdrawal? You accept all that and continue to support the war? How?
I'm of course not "okay" with the situation in Iraq. Brave servicemen, policemen, and civilians, American, Iraqi, British, Polish, etc, are being wounded and killed by criminals, terrorists, insurgents, and others that would use violence as a weapon to exert their will. That is why I support the current counterinsurgency operations, as of the options available to us today, here in 2007, the present strategy, while imperfect, are nearly universally accepted as being the best option we have available of minimizing the ability of criminals, insurgents, and terrorists to succeed.
The Iraqi people, overwhelmingly, want us out of Iraq... just not now.
You however, would propose what solution? How would your solution help establish domestic security for Iraqi civilians, build infrastructure , or establish a balance of power in the region?
If you have a better idea than is currently being used that would save lives and help Iraq's future, we're all ears.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at October 16, 2007 11:06 PM (HcgFD)
Posted by: CDB at October 16, 2007 11:27 PM (Zg2Hr)
Confederate Yankee wisely sticks to attacking Paul for being off by one month: "First Paul, the editorial in question wasn't published in September, it was originally published in the NY Times on August 19. Learn to properly cite the primary source. I assure you that it is probably within your capabilities. As for that editorial, I thought it was very well written, and no doubt accurately reflected the experiences of these soldiers, all serving with the highly-respected 82nd Airborne in Baghdad. What exactly is there to refute?"
Well, CY, CCG thinks there's something to refute. He, like Limbaugh, wants to know that the soldiers aren't phony: " I'd want to see verification of these soldiers' bona fides and independent confirmation (i.e. not in an op-ed piece) of the incidents they report."
Mark Flacy piles on: "Why would I refute what they wrote? Why should I? I could find 7 people in a city of 150K that thought the city in question was going to hell in a handbasket. Odds are that they wouldn't be lying either."
Props to CY for being smart enuf to realize there's no refuting the ground truth that the 7 82nd NCOs wrote. Thanks to CCG for wanting the NCOs' "bone fides" and giving me a good yuk. Thanks to Mark Flacy for not being afraid to tell us that the experiences of the 7 NCOs are in no way representative of other soldiers in Iraq. Pretty implausible, but maybe he's in a position to know. Just get back from touring all the provinces in Iraq, Mark?
CY mentions that Iraqi civilian deaths have fallen dramatically from August to September. That's true. And hopeful. Might want to wait a month before you call it a trend, tho.
Of course, that might have something to do with the fact that ethnic cleansing in Baghdad has continued unabated during the surge.
So, in many Baghdad neighborhoods, there's nobody left to kill. They're all dead or fled.
Posted by: Svejk at October 16, 2007 11:44 PM (GgQ4Y)
From the article you linked (with emphasis):
The number of Iraqi civilians killed in July was slightly higher than in February, when the surge began.
And from the Washington Post (again with emphasis>:
In September, Iraqi civilian deaths were down 52 percent from August and 77 percent from September 2006, according to the Web site icasualties.org.
In short, the article you are quoting is using data that is already three months old as of the time of its printing (10 September), and four months old now.
That one doesn't even get a "nice try." It's a pathetic attempt at an absurd spin.
Posted by: C-C-G at October 16, 2007 11:50 PM (ufhAS)
...
If you have a better idea than is currently being used that would save lives and help Iraq's future, we're all ears.
The Iraqi people want us out... so let's give them what they want. Actions speak louder than words. There's a major disconnect between our actions (building multi-billion $ superbases at Balad, Tallil, al-Asad and al-Qayyarah) and our words (saying we'll leave whenever the Iraqi govt tells us to). And we've come straight out and said we we intend to stay as long as we've stayed in S. Korea, as well. the Iraqis have every reason to believe us when we say that.
Instead, we need to state categorically that we intend to leave unless the process of political reconciliation makes real progress. Begin the process of turning those bases over to the Iraqi govt. Until Maliki and his allies actually believe we'll leave if they don't cooperate, we have no lever to get them to engage in serious political compromise with the Sunnis.
Posted by: Svejk at October 17, 2007 12:07 AM (GgQ4Y)
Your data is first-hand, then?
Tell 'ya what, spanky. I'm a 1980 USMA grad. I've got classmates that are in theater, have been in theater, and will probably be going back into the AO.
So if it's a toss-up between believing them and what they tell me or the blathering cr*p that you write, you lose.
Posted by: Mark A. Flacy at October 17, 2007 12:20 AM (Ef+b7)
The point of the article that I was concerned with, as my link noted, was that ethnic cleansing has "continued unabated" in Baghdad during the surge and that many neighborhoods are no longer ethnically mixed because all the ethnic minorities are dead or fled. So naturally enough, fewer deaths were recorded in those neighborhoods in August and September.
Nice attempt to change the subject.
Posted by: Svejk at October 17, 2007 12:24 AM (GgQ4Y)
Yeah, yeah, whatever. I'm a 1988 Ft Benning School for Boys grad. I've got classmates who are in theatre or on their way back to it, too. Whatever. I'm not the guy who was dumb enough to claim to need to see the "bone fides" of 7 82nd ABN infantry NCOs.
Posted by: Svejk at October 17, 2007 12:29 AM (GgQ4Y)
Posted by: daleyrocks at October 17, 2007 01:59 AM (0pZel)
In line with your style today -
I take it you agree with John Kerry's comments that soldier's are dumb.
I take it you agree with Dick Durbin's comments that our soldiers are like concentration camp guards.
I take it you agree with John Kerry that our soldiers are terrorizing women and children in the middle of the night.
I take it like the rest of the democrats, apart from pulling our troops out of Iraq, you have no strategy for dealing with Iran or Iraq after we pull our troops out.
I take it like the rest of the democrats you do not believe pulling out of Iraq will have an adverse impact on people's belief in the credibility of America's international commitments going forward.
I take it like some of the democrats you feel that the possibility of genocude in Iraq, if it should come to pass, id the Iraqi's own damn problem.
I take it you would not be in favor of American intervention in civil war situations such as Darfur or the Balkans in the future.
Just a few observations. No need to answer.
Posted by: daleyrocks at October 17, 2007 02:10 AM (0pZel)
But you didn't even consider that, because you are focused solely on Iraq being a failure, so everything is viewed through that lens.
Thank you, however, for making your "defeat at any costs" bias very obvious.
Posted by: C-C-G at October 17, 2007 09:59 AM (ufhAS)
I take it you agree with Jack Murtha that American soldiers are murdering Iraqi women and children in cold blood on a regular basis.
I take it you agree with the Democratic leadership that Al Qaeda is not present in Iraq.
Posted by: daleyrocks at October 17, 2007 11:25 AM (0pZel)
Posted by: John Ryan at October 17, 2007 11:29 AM (TcoRJ)
Ah, the Townhouse Important Action Alert has been issued.
Boring, as always.
Leftards lie, jihadis die. Ever thus.
Cordially...
Posted by: Rick at October 17, 2007 11:54 AM (L/ClK)
Fro Michael Yons latest post.
"Each year, units are given a reenlistment mission inorder to retain good soldiers in the Army. For example, the Squadron had a mission to reenlist two soldiers who are still on their initial enlistment during this fiscal year. Well, we reenlisted forty-two."
The whole "troops hostage in Iraq" theory smacks of John Francois Kerrys, "if you are stupid you wind up a soldier stuck in Iraq" comment, and we all know how stupid the troops in Iraq made Kerry look after that little gaffe.
Posted by: Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr at October 17, 2007 12:00 PM (gkobM)
Stats, please.
Posted by: Pablo at October 17, 2007 12:34 PM (yTndK)
Sigh. Counting which wars? The ones with a "stop loss" in place or those without?
Posted by: Mark A. Flacy at October 17, 2007 04:49 PM (Ef+b7)
But you didn't even consider that, because you are focused solely on Iraq being a failure, so everything is viewed through that lens.
Thank you, however, for making your "defeat at any costs" bias very obvious.
CCG... are you saying that the ethnic cleansing that was taking place in July was no longer happening in September? Ab-so-effing-lutely. You hit the nail on the head there. Ethnic cleansing is no longer taking place in many neighborhoods because all the religious minorities are dead or fled.
The White House agrees with you:
In Baghdad, the White House official said, the group's "area of operations has been reduced quite a bit for a variety of reasons, some good and some bad." Three years of sectarian fighting have eliminated many mixed Sunni-Shiite neighborhoods. Those areas had been the most fertile and accessible places for AQI, which is composed of extremist Sunnis, to attack Shiite civilians, security forces and government officials. But the death of mixed neighborhoods also has made another Bush administration priority -- promoting political reconciliation -- more difficult.
I'm not focused on Iraq being a failure. I'm focused on it being a FIASCO that's straining our ground forces and their families, bleeding us dry of troops needed elsewhere (remember how Afghanistan used to be a 'mission accompished') and giving AQ's fundamentalist extremists a recruiting tool that just keeps giving them recruits and money.
I'm tired of 5 years of neo-conservative idiocy regarding Iraq. Cheney, the AEI, Kagan, etc... keeping opening cans of STUPID and trying to tell us it's WISDOM.
Posted by: Svejk at October 17, 2007 05:28 PM (GgQ4Y)
....BAGHDAD — One hundred forty-one Paratroopers decided to stay Army in a mass re-enlistment ceremony held on Forward Operating Base Kalsu, Oct. 14.
The Paratroopers from 4th Brigade Combat Team (Airborne), 25th Infantry Division made the decision to continue their service in the Army after being deployed for over a year.
Maj. Gen. Rick Lynch, commanding general of Multi-National Division–Center, made a special trip to FOB Kalsu to lead the oath of enlistment for these paratroopers.
“To re-enlist this many Paratroopers after being deployed for a year is truly amazing,” said Master Sgt. Douglas Goodwin, senior career counselor for the 4th BCT (Abn.), 25th Inf. Div. “It says a lot about the leadership and the patriotism of these Paratroopers.”
After the ceremony, Lynch thanked each Paratrooper individually and posed for pictures.
To this date, the Spartan Brigade has re-enlisted nearly 1,300 Soldiers; approximately 70 percent of them have decided to stay with the brigade for another tour.
“Soldiers are special people and to see these Paratroopers making a commitment to continue serving their country when the operational tempo is so high proves they trust in their leadership,” Goodwin said. “It also shows how much they believe in what they are doing and stand proud as United States Paratroopers ready to defend our country against the ever-growing threat of terrorism.”
(Story by Sgt. Marcus Butler, 4th Brigade Combat Team (Airborne), 25th Infantry Division)
In other developments throughout Iraq:
• An Air Force bomb drop Oct. 15 destroyed a bridge northeast of Baghdad to disrupt weapons smugglers and insurgent movement.
• Airborne Paratroopers from Troop B, 1st Squadron, 40th Cavalry Regiment, 4th Brigade Combat Team (Airborne), 25th Infantry Division detained 12 suspected insurgents during an air mobility raid east of Adwaniya Oct. 14.
...
Yikes, this is bad news for the pascifist losers on the left.
Posted by: Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr at October 17, 2007 06:13 PM (gkobM)
The paragraph IMMEDIATELY FOLLOWING the one you quoted demolishes your argument:
The expanded presence of U.S. troops in combat outposts in many parts of Baghdad has also put pressure on AQI, but a major test of gains against the organization will come when the U.S. military begins to turn security in those areas over to Iraqi forces next year.
So, as I said, the surge was a part of why whatever ethnic cleansing was happening has stopped.
But, as I pointed out, you simply cannot admit any success in Iraq, so you selectively quote and spin, spin, spin. If we could hook you up to a generator we could power Las Vegas with all its lights.
Posted by: C-C-G at October 17, 2007 07:55 PM (ufhAS)
I doubt it.
Face it, you've been spun dizzy by these guys for 5 years and you've gotten so you like the feeling. And while they've been spinning you about Iraq, you didn't notice that victory was slipping away in Afghanistan or that Al Qaeda had established a safe haven in Pakistan or that Al Qaeda was using our presence in Iraq to pump up their recruiting and financing.
The Iraqi Army has improved. The security in situation in parts of Baghdad has calmed... but that's not what matters, as General Petraeus made very clear back in January. For the surge to succeed, the Iraqis need to reach a political settlement. And they haven't made any effort to.
I'll be sure to drop back in in 6 months when we start withdrawing the "surge" and no political progress has been made. Hope you're still around. I enjoy your endless excuses for the neo-conservative dreamer brigade.
Posted by: Svejk at October 18, 2007 12:10 AM (GgQ4Y)
What are our troop levels in Afghanistan relative to the original invasion? Do you want us to follow the Russian model there?
Do you want us to follow Obama's suggestion and bomb or invade Pakistan without permission to pursue Osama?
Political reconciliation efforts have been going on steadily in Iraq for a while. A number of them were noted on this thread yesterday. Try reading, it's fundamental.
Once made, quotes must always be cast in stone. So why would the Democrats who voted for the war in Iraq now be lobbying for withdrawal. If you want to pull old quotes to use as cheap ammo against people I could do that all day. I don't think it's useful. We're looking at today's situation and going forward, while you remain stuck on stupid.
I do love the argument that by killing terrorists and lessening their numbers we are making them stronger. It makes great intuitive sense, to a lefty I guess.
Posted by: daleyrocks at October 18, 2007 12:50 AM (0pZel)
You ignored that question before, probably because you know that the answer will demolish your larger argument. That's why I won't let it go.
By the way, did you know that the Iraqi Parliament has passed more substantive laws than the Democrat-led US Congress in the same time period? Interesting to note, isn't it, that the same people that are harping on the so-called "failure" of the Iraqi government can't even get a budget passed when they are in charge.
Posted by: C-C-G at October 18, 2007 08:55 AM (ufhAS)
In LeftyWorld, people flock to join a losing army in a war.
In LeftyWorld, people also fill the stadiums of sports teams with losing records, like the Tampa Bay Devil Rays (96 losses in the 2007 season).
Of course, LeftyWorld has no connection to the real world, which is why lefties make such absurd statements. Their connection to reality is very tenuous at best.
Posted by: C-C-G at October 18, 2007 09:13 AM (ufhAS)
What the United States can do, as I said before, is reestablish ourselves as a fair judge -- win back the rep for fairness we had back when Clinton intervened in Bosnia. That means we need to publicly repudiate the neo-conservative dreamers who have spun people like you silly for the last 5 years. Kagan, the American Enterprise Institute, Bill Kristol, all the other draft-avoiding chestbeaters who advised invading Iraq with no plan for the occupation except to turn the mess over to Ahmed Chalabi need to be told not bother calling any more. Vice President Cheney needs to resign "for health reasons". Then we'd have some credibility back. Then we need to lay down the law to the Shiite government.
As I put it earlier,
"we've said, we intend to stay as long as we've stayed in S. Korea... we need to state categorically that we intend to leave unless the process of political reconciliation makes real progress. Begin the process of turning those bases over to the Iraqi govt. Until Maliki and his allies actually believe we'll leave if they don't cooperate, we have no lever to get them to engage in serious political compromise with the Sunnis."
General Petraeus says there's no military solution to the mess in Mess-o-potamia. There's only a political one. Petraeus' efforts have tamped down violence in Baghdad -- but they didn't stop the ongoing ethnic cleansing and they haven't budged the Maliki govt or the Shiite militias or the Sunnis to come one jot closer to talking.
And while the surge is going nowhere, Afghanistan has slid further into chaos (remember Afghanistan, the total success of 2002?), AQ has expanded its recruiting and fundraising and our other interests worldwide have suffered.
Posted by: Svejk at October 18, 2007 11:51 AM (GgQ4Y)
Really? Cause the Afghans are a little bit disapointed with the "coalition".
...“The United States took the lead on creating the Afghan national army, which has been a success. The Italians took the justice system, [but] they have not dedicated any resources to it, so still that is a problem. A lot of the time, people are sent to the courts and then they are released, perhaps through corruption,” he said.
“On the police reform, the Germans were supposed to be leading; they have not dedicated much effort and resources,” said Gen. Wardak. “And in the [disarmament, demobilization and reintegration of former Afghan forces] the Japanese did a 50-50 job.”...
Thats the Afghan defense minister talking.
http://www.washingtontimes.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20071018/FOREIGN/110180046/-1/RSS_WORLD
BTW, way to disrepect the coalition of the willing in Iraq. No wonder the world hates US liberals.
Posted by: Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrr at October 18, 2007 04:25 PM (gkobM)
I'm glad to hear you're concerned about the opinion of the rest of the world.
The United States' loss of credibility, respect and ability to bring countries to the bargaining worldwide has everything to do with this administration's "they'll greet us with flowers and parades" incompetence and nothing to do with the people like General Tony Zinni, General John Batiste and General Colin Powell's stating that the 'coalition of the willing' is a sham and that the occupation of Iraq has been a distraction from the war against AQ.
Posted by: Svejk at October 18, 2007 05:20 PM (/nAjC)
Enough on VP Cheney already. Please don't swallow the MSM's version of his life. Do you, personally, know the man? I do. He is a good man. His biggest downfall is he is a politician. I've known him since I was 14 (39 now) when I started seeking an appointment to the USAF academy...never got it unfortunately
For the record: I am a registered Independent living in Wyoming. Yes, a state that only has one tiny little blue spot in it we like to call "The People's Republic of Jackson Hole". I am conservative (with some admitted waffles) both socially and fiscally. I had HUGE problems with the Iraq after-war planning. The war plan, itself, was masterful, period. Most of the issues confronting us today in Iraq stem from giving too much 'freedom' to the Iraqis too soon. If you wish, I will expound upon that statement, but I will wait until you ask. I will not rehash it now since it is water that has long made it to the ocean.
The strategy that is in play today in Iraq seems to be working on the military end. As has been said in essence (not quoting because I refuse to re-read 100+ posts to find them) is the surge HAS cut violence. That was the point to the surge. Lower violence, more security, THEN movement on the political end. Give the surge the time it needs to work. If there is not strong positive movement on the political side within six months, then I MIGHT AGREE with your argument. Make note - "Strong movement" does not mean peace breaks out all over the country. It means the political side has moved significantly forward in purpose and deed. There will be plenty to do for quite a few years more on the political end.
One cannot build a democratic government within 5 years. A 10 year time-span is much more reasonable. Check your history of post WWII Japan and Germany or even US history starting with 1776. Seems to me, our constitution wasn't even adopted until 1787.
Posted by: Mark at October 18, 2007 06:06 PM (4od5C)
You skated allllllll around that, but you still haven't given specifics, just a vague lefty notion about getting back our credibility.
So, say you're the senior adviser to General Petraeus. What specific goals do you advise him to pursue, that he can accomplish with the military might at his command?
Posted by: C-C-G at October 18, 2007 07:18 PM (ufhAS)
You talk about draft avoiders... when did President Clinton serve, Svejk?
Hmmm?
Inquiring minds want to know, Svejk.
Posted by: C-C-G at October 18, 2007 07:22 PM (ufhAS)
You got nothing but rhetoric Svejk. Even the leading Dem presidential candidates admit we need to stay in Iraq.
Posted by: daleyrocks at October 18, 2007 11:25 PM (0pZel)
Until Maliki and his Shiite militia backers believe that we mean what we say, we're their little girls. We've been telling them that they need to pass an oil law and that they need to reach out to the Sunnis and that they need to place Sunnis in significant command postings in the security forces... and they smile and say yes... and then screw us every time.
For the third time, let me repeat that General Petraeus is RIGHT -- there's no military solution to the Iraq civil war. A political solution is necessary and we're not making any headway towards it.
RE: draft avoidance. If Clinton dodged the draft and advocated and misplanned a fiasco of an unnecessary war that's distracted us from accomplishing our real goals and stretched our military to the breaking point (e.g. AQ has established safe havens in Pakistan, Afghanistan has gone from total victory to the brink of defeat) then I'll gladly join you in denouncing him.
The feckless failures who fit that description are Cheney, Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz, Feith, Kristol, Kagan and a host of armchair generals at the American Enterprise Institute and various media outlets.
Clinton contained Saddam for a few billion a year and made Bosnia and Kosovo work. He gets a pass.
Posted by: Svejk at October 18, 2007 11:38 PM (GgQ4Y)
I know Vice President Cheney applied for and got five deferments during the Vietnam war and when asked why he didn't enlist, said, "I had other priorities." I know that his fifth and final deferment came because the then-childless Cheney's had a child precisely nine months and two days after the Selective Service publicly revoked its policy of not drafting childless husbands.
I know way more than I want to about the guy. He needs to resign.
Posted by: Svejk at October 18, 2007 11:54 PM (GgQ4Y)
"I know Cheney told America that invading Iraq was necessary because Iraq had nuclear weapons."
Do you mean was developing them or actually had them? If he said they had them, he probably corrected himself later and you missed it. Media Matters would have ignored the correction.
Hillary Clinton hasn't served and neither have Obama or I believe Edwards. Your point?
Clinton did as good a job containing Saddam as he did North Korea. No credit.
Posted by: daleyrocks at October 19, 2007 02:49 AM (0pZel)
You haven't given a straight answer because you cannot. The military cannot force political progress short of a coup, and you are unable to admit that. Therefore, you keep dancing around the question.
Of greater importance is the fact that you are so mired in your hatred of one or two men that you are willing to let an entire nation of people suffer the brutalities of Al Qaeda rather than permit these gentlemen even one victory. Are the Iraqi people less than human to you, then? Are you so blinded by hatred that you cannot see their suffering at the hands of Al Qaeda, and hear their cries for America to help drive these terrorists away?
I suggest you take some time to examine yourself. A very wise man said many many years ago, "the unexamined life is not worth living." I offer his words as a challenge.
Of course, you won't examine yourself. You will ignore the evidence of Sunni and Shia working together, bringing political change to Iraq from the ground up, rather than from the top down. You'll ignore the fact that while you berate the Iraqi Parliament for lack of action, your own Democrat-led Congress does even less. And you will continue to post your vile, venom-dripping, hate-filled screeds here until CY bans you.
And that will prove beyond a reasonable doubt that you are so far sunk in your hatred that you are past redemption, and worthy only of pity, never respect, like the man who insists he is a poached egg.
I will pray for you.
Posted by: C-C-G at October 19, 2007 09:03 AM (ufhAS)
He also got 3000 Americans killed on 9/11 due to his blundering incompetence. During his 8 year administration AQ grew dramatically and when he had the chance to take out Osama he declined, thanks Bill. Under Bush two new middle east democracies have been born and 60, 000, 000 people have been liberated from tyranny. Fundamental democratic reform of the Middle East is the only long term solution to AQ. Bills feeble and failed pinprick, cover his ass and look tough approach was an unmitigated disaster.
Posted by: Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr at October 19, 2007 10:09 AM (gkobM)
I’ll deal with your red-herring on the VP first and follow with a challenge to get you back to the basis of the post:
You understand my absolute shock that any VP may have “played a huge role in deciding” any given major foreign policy move - /sarc. Well, at least any VP that was worth anything. Couple good examples of those that were/are worthless: Dan Quail and Al Gore.
On Chalabi – Hindsight is a very nice tool to be using. Put yourself into the administration’s shoes AT THE TIME the decisions were made. Chalabi provided information and I ASSUME it was corroborated. The decision to invade wasn’t made only on that info. I agree with you he was a rather poor choice for anything since he was too invested in having the US invade Iraq.
What Cheney told America was exactly what Bill Clinton, John Kerry, and etc told America. In point of fact – he, and all the others, did NOT tell America “Iraq had nuclear weapons”, but that “Iraq was trying to develop nuclear weapons”. The others also included the intelligence agencies of almost all countries including Russia, UK, France, Israel, etc. The US did not invade Iraq ONLY because the potential of WMD’s but a laundry list of 10 distinct items including UN violations, crimes against humanity, and WMD’s. I personally felt the inclusion of the WMD’s in the list was foolish by the administration since these things had a tendency to disappear in Iraq. Example – Hans Blix never found any when he was in charge of the inspections…but Hans had a very hard time getting ‘permission’ from Saddam to inspect at will.
“Greeted with parades” and “The insurgency is in its last throes” – If you remember, when we took Baghdad, the spontaneous celebrations that happened? (then the looting due to ‘too much freedom too soon”) As for the insurgency, if AQI had not blown up the Golden Dome then it WAS winding down. That act sparked the majority of sectarianism. You cannot judge the statements using hindsight. Instead put yourself in the time and place they were made using the information that was available at that time. This is the classic failure of revisionist historians. Perfect information SHOULD lead to perfect decisions, imperfect info and you get what we have today. I don’t carry water for the administration on this…I do think they screwed up a heck of a lot of things with respect to Iraq.
Deferments: I happen to agree with you in principle on this point. He should have served. However, how many people who were eligible did the same thing or left the country. Bill Clinton comes to mind. On the last deferment, I believe you ‘mis-wrote’ – “not drafting childless husbands” – should probably “drafting childless husbands” as having a child destroys your argument.
Why should he resign? What has he done that is illegal? I can think of a host of politicians who should resign, but Dick Cheney isn’t one of them.
Now that this red-herring should be put to bed, why not address the other three paragraphs of my post.
(man…killing red-herrings is a long and windy job
Posted by: Mark at October 19, 2007 10:39 AM (4od5C)
You support the neo-conservatives. It is clear that your heart would find solace in helping the president and vice president and Fred Kagan and Bill Kristol accomplish their goals in Iraq. I will pray that you find the courage to do what is right for yourself.
Daley -- would you care to place a leetle wager on whether the Vice President went on national television and announced that Saddam had nukes? And never corrected himself -- except maybe to the Hicksville Gazette years later?
Daley and Mark -- Chalabi did provide the US with intelligence, much of which was never corroborated. Read up on "Curveball". Nobody except Doug Feith, Don Rumsfeld, Dick Cheney, Bill Kristol and the rest of the starry-eyed Project for a New American Century neo-con crew took him seriously. And yes, the plan to put him and the exiles from the Iraqi National Congress in charge of Iraq didn't work out. Which is why Rumsfeld's well-documented insistence that no post-war planning be done is STILL biting us in the butt.
Mark -- We WERE greeted with enthusiasm in Baghdad. You're right! The majority of the country hated Saddam and was grateful to us for kicking him out.
And since the neo-con idiots refused to listen to General Shinseki or the Army War College's Strategic Studies Institute's report, or the Army's Peacekeeping Institute's report or the State Department's multi-million-$ Future of Iraq report or the detailed Desert Crossing plans made by General Tony Zinni's Central Command, or the suggestions made by all the military professionals with experience in Bosnia and Kosovo... we had less than half as many troops available to maintain security as all those reports experts had advised. We didn't close the borders. We didn't guard Saddam's weapons dumps. We didn't have enough troops to guard anything but the Oil Ministry in Baghdad. And all those reports warned that if we didn't provide post-invasion security, we would quickly lose the support of the population.
While 80% of the Iraqi's were parading their enthusiasm for us, thousands of hard core Saddamists were taking the opening steps to wage guerilla war on us... because Dick Cheney and Don Rumsfeld thought that "parades" = "no resistance".
This administration screwed up the Phase 1V planning so badly that 80% of Iraq went from throwing flowers at us to where they are today. Got that? Iraq went from being the country where we were most loved in the entire world to being the country where we're the most disliked.
Dick Cheney should resign for the good of the president and the country. It's clear to everyone that he's been the most persuasive advocate of the Iraq war and the policies we've pursued in Iraq. If he were to resign it would make it clear that we intended to change our policies... and give us renewed cred when we told Maliki to start working towards compromise or face the consequences.
Posted by: Svejk at October 19, 2007 04:45 PM (GgQ4Y)
Posted by: C-C-G at October 19, 2007 06:47 PM (ufhAS)
I appreciate this latest comment much more than any of your previous. You have stated in this exactly why you believe certain things and not repeated "talking points". Thank you for finally being reasonable enough to speak plainly as opposed to vitriol.
I also thank you for your service. Something I never was able to do in the end though I desperately wanted it. MS ended any of my military ambitions.
The only probelm I have with this current comment is you are rehashing the basic reasons and strategies that led to the current situation in Iraq. Let me disuade your anger at this point: I agree with you about the "post-war aspect" being completely screwed up. I also agree with the not enough troops point. If we would have taken our time to secure villages, towns, cities, and countryside instead of racing to Baghdad we would not have the situation we have had for the last four plus years. I can go on about this for hours if you like
This is the basic issue: the original post CY put up concerns 12 Captains who aren't in Iraq now and weren't there even as recently as 2007. I do not devalue their opinions or experience. I agree with CY that the points they make are valid, however, they are dated due to the circumstances.
The question I believe is relevant with respect to the here and now is: Will the surge of extra troops give the breathing space for the political end to improve? My point is the surge is still ongoing and cannot be judged success or failure until a sufficient amount of time has passed. I repeat from one of my earlier posts, give it time...with enough of a drop in violence, as seen today and hopefully in the coming few months, see if the Maliki gov't is able to at least begin to heal some breaches. If that happens then the surge was effective and successful.
I believe the local end is working nicely right now even if it is more 'marriage of convenience' substance. With enough cooperation from local powers, the national levels are bound to start taking some credit and, therefore, ownership of the improving situation. This could lead to a snowballing effect. Note - I am putting a lot of "ifs" into this...a lot of hope.
Let's come back to this subject in three months, analyze the 'current situation', and then make an intial judgement. Then three months more to make a more substantive judgement.
CCG: Accept prayers from anyone, please. God will...so should you.
A last note on the VP: A VP is supposed to be the strongest advocate of the President and their policies. You say he was on Iraq and I agree. If he was my VP, I would expect nothing less of him. In other words - Job well done, Mr. Cheney.
Again, thank you for your service and for this much more reasonable tone.
Posted by: Mark at October 19, 2007 08:41 PM (P8ylB)
Most, if not all real, substantive political change starts from the "grassroots" level and works its way up, not the other way around. Even the Bolshevik revolution was largely driven by the citizens.
The fact that we see local Sunnis and Shia shaking hands and working together means more to me than all the proclamations from Baghdad or Turtle Bay. It means that the average Abdul-on-the-street is starting to concern himself with the way Iraq is run, and that is a very good sign indeed.
Just because it doesn't make the nightly network news doesn't mean that there is no political progress being made. Every flood is made up of millions of tiny raindrops.
Posted by: C-C-G at October 19, 2007 08:59 PM (ufhAS)
Cheney and Bush are advised by more than one individual for good reason. To hear hindsight heroes wail after the fact "He didn't listen to me" isn't productive when they offer no solutions to improve the current outcome. When the disaffected generals the Democrats trotted out for a while eventually said we needed to stay in Iraq, they magically disappeared from the airwaves.
Staying focused on mistakes or parts of the Iraq campaign that are or were not going well may fuel your anger but I haven't seen any suggestions out of you. Maybe I missed them. Sorry If I did.
Why don't you throw those Cheney quotes out there for everyone to see if you've got them.
Posted by: daleyrocks at October 19, 2007 10:54 PM (0pZel)
Posted by: C-C-G at October 20, 2007 06:42 PM (ysloH)
Second, his emphasis on getting our troops out of FOBs and into the areas they're responsible for securing is paying dividends. His emphasis on the goal of counterinsurgency being to win the support of the civilian population is, too.
Third, the surge did what I think we all understand, created more secure conditions in given zones by putting more American troops into those areas.
Obviously, his tactics would have had greater effect if we'd tried them 3 years ago, when we still had the support of most Iraqis and fewer of them were committed to radical Shiite/Sunni groups.
I wish Petraeus and Ambassador Crocker succeed in pressuring Maliki and the Sunnis and Shiites to compromise. I accept that they have to make public proclamations that don't reflect reality -- optimism is a useful political tool.
But I doubt they'll get that political cooperation and I feel the opportunity costs of staying in Iraq are much greater than simply freeing up the number of troops we have there. Our role in Iraq has been a tremendous recruiting tool for AQ and other radical groups for the last few years. We're perceived as intending to stay in Iraq indefinitely -- and most countries think we're doing so to protect our interests in Iraqi oil. I'm not sure if any of you understand how useful it was to the US to be perceived by the world as a just and fair mediator who didn't have a dog in the fight in the Mid East. For starters, imagine how useful it might be to base US troops or have overflight priveliges in Turmenistan or the other -stans for an attack on Iran's nuclear facilities? We had that, after 9/11. We don't anymore, thanks to our unilateralist, go-it-alone policies.
And imagine how much easier it would be to get the Euros to sign on to stiffer sanctions and threats of war against Iran -- if they didn't have the example of our "Coalition of the Willing"-sanctioned Iraq invasion in front of them.
The Post-Iraq-invasion service-members deserve many times the thanks that any of us who served prior to then deserve. This administration has asked nothing of civilians and everything of the military. The threat of 'stop-loss' has a lot to do with the high reenlistment rate -- motivating many soldiers to voluntarily reup and get the bonus rather than be told to stay anyway for nothing.
CCG -- let it go, bud, let it go.
Vice President Cheney -- it's pretty clear to everybody that he is the "strongest advocate" in the administration. The policies he's advocated for have been unsuccessful. American influence is at it's lowest point in decades. Pres. Bush is less popular than any president since Nixon. Someone needs to fall on their sword.
Posted by: Svejk at October 20, 2007 06:52 PM (3twU/)
Take a gander at the approval ratings for your beloved MoveOn-dominated Congress.
Posted by: C-C-G at October 20, 2007 08:32 PM (ysloH)
It's clear that only progressives have the ability to inderstand these weighty matters. It must be lonely to struggle under the weight of such brilliance.
RRRRRiiiiiiiiiiggggggggggghhhhhhhhhhhhttttttttttt!!!!!!!!...
Posted by: daleyrocks at October 21, 2007 11:03 AM (0pZel)
Which ones and how so, Svejk? Tax cuts. Regime change in Iraq and Afghanistan. Those seem to have worked quite well.
American influence is at it's lowest point in decades.
American influence exists it places it has never existed before. See the former Soviet Bloc, Afghanistan, Iraq, etc... And see also conservatives and supporters of America being elected/re-elected in Australia, Germany, Britain and even France. What you mistake as declining influence is simply increased leftist vitriol. Tell me, who doesn't listen to us that used to a decade ago?
We're perceived as intending to stay in Iraq indefinitely -- and most countries think we're doing so to protect our interests in Iraqi oil.
Well, we're still in Germany for the beer and the schnitzel, so why not? But tell me, which countries are those that think we're in Iraq simply for oil? Can you provide any official statements that say such a thing?
Also, daleyrocks asks a great question that you really ought to respond to:
Why don't you throw those Cheney quotes out there for everyone to see if you've got them.
Posted by: Pablo at October 21, 2007 11:44 AM (yTndK)
How useful? How about little to not at all? We're in Iraq. We're in Afghanistan. We're in the Gulf. We're in Kuwait. We're in Bahrain. And if we decided to send in BUFF's or some such, they can always pit stop in Diego Garcia. What would we gain in Turkmenistan that we don't already have?
We don't anymore, thanks to our unilateralist, go-it-alone policies.
What exactly do you mean by linking that last phrase to an article about others rejecting the notion of an attack on Iran? Exactly what unilateralist, go-it-alone policy does that represent?
Posted by: Pablo at October 21, 2007 11:56 AM (yTndK)
For starters, imagine how useful it might be to base US troops or have overflight priveliges in Turmenistan or the other -stans for an attack on Iran's nuclear facilities?
If forward bases are of such concern to lefties, why did Speaker Pelosi put forward a resolution practically guaranteed to anger our Turkish allies? We have a large airbase in Turkey, a very large portion of the supplies for Iraq go through there, ya know.
Posted by: C-C-G at October 21, 2007 12:03 PM (ysloH)
Posted by: Pablo at October 21, 2007 12:11 PM (yTndK)
Posted by: Pablo at October 21, 2007 12:18 PM (yTndK)
STOP - OR WE'LL BE FORCED TO SAY STOP AGAIN!
Highly effective they were. STOP!. I'd be quaking in my boots if a bunch of bribe taking diplomats I had in my pocket said that to me. Yesiree!
Posted by: daleyrocks at October 21, 2007 01:16 PM (0pZel)
Posted by: C-C-G at October 21, 2007 02:08 PM (ysloH)
Here's what's tieing you up:
A. "[T]he insurgents' mosque-burning and pilgrim-shooting strategy can be seen as moves of desperation."
B. "The insurgency is in its last throes."
C. "We've got a plan to lead to victory."
D. "There is no insurrection in Iraq."
E. "There is no civil war."
F. "Mission accomplished."
G. "Major combat operations in Iraq have ended."
H. "AQI... has suffered a stunning defeat in Iraq over the past six months. It has lost all of its urban strongholds and is engaged in a desperate attempt to reestablish a foothold even in the countryside."
I. "It's just a few dead-enders!"
J. "The latest violence was a desperate attempt by terrorists who are being pushed into a corner by the new security crackdown."
K. "Clearly there is an attempt under way by the terrorists, by Zarqawi and others, to foment civil war. That's been their strategy all along, but my view would be they've reached a stage of desperation from their standpoint"
L. "While we are making important progress, they are going to continue to become more desperate. We have difficult and tough times ahead, but the terrorists and thugs are becoming more desperate because a free and peaceful Iraq is taking hold."
M. "Iraqi leaders are stepping forward... [they] are keen to shoulder more of the load for their own security."
N. "The insurgents' mosque-burning and pilgrim-shooting strategy can be seen as moves of desperation."
O. "It is an act of desperation by an increasingly beleaguered enemy seeking to obstruct the peaceful political and economic development of a democratic Iraq."
P. "Stay the Course!"
Q. "Cut and Run!"
R. "We'll be greeted as liberators!"
S. "We're winning!"
T. "We know he's been absolutely devoted to trying to acquire nuclear weapons, and we believe he has, in fact, reconstituted nuclear weapons."
U. "The British government has learned that Saddam Hussein recently sought significant quantities of uranium from Africa."
V. "We will have struck a major blow right at the heart of the base, if you will, the geographic base of the terrorists who have had us under assault now for many years, but most especially on 9/11."
Admit you've been wrong on all things Iraq! Cut your ropes and quit submitting to administration spinners!
Cheers!
Posted by: Svejk at October 21, 2007 02:49 PM (ls6Pk)
We are winning.
And that fact pisses you off no end, which makes me smile.
Posted by: C-C-G at October 21, 2007 03:01 PM (ysloH)
Cheers, pal.
Posted by: Svejk at October 21, 2007 03:41 PM (ls6Pk)
Pretty good track record, I am glad you agree.
Posted by: C-C-G at October 21, 2007 04:24 PM (ysloH)
Posted by: Pablo at October 21, 2007 04:32 PM (yTndK)
Where are we in Pakistan? By all means, please elucidate.
Posted by: Pablo at October 21, 2007 04:33 PM (yTndK)
Yeah, most of those quotes remain true and accurate, including the oft repeated "16 Words".
Posted by: Pablo at October 21, 2007 04:38 PM (yTndK)
"we're at a point where we clearly have moved from major combat activity to a period of stability and stabilization and reconstruction activities. The bulk of this country today is permissive, it's secure."
Man! Who to believe? You guys and Rumsfeld? Or my lieing eyes?
Thanks CCG! It's starry-eyed neo-conservative dreamers like you and Rummy who've made Iraq, Afghanistan and Pakistan "permissive" and "secure" paradises!
Posted by: Svejk at October 21, 2007 07:41 PM (GgQ4Y)
Posted by: C-C-G at October 21, 2007 08:11 PM (ysloH)
No, I don't suppose it is, and more than Chechnya is.
Do you suppose that anything happens on this big blue marble that isn't directly attributable to the Bush administration? I ask again: Where are we in Pakistan? And while we're at it, how did we get there?
Posted by: Pablo at October 22, 2007 09:25 PM (yTndK)
Of course not.
We all know, if Kim Jong-Il sneezes, it must have been Booooosh and the eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeevil Wepubwicans that caused it, at the behest of the even eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeviler Jooooooooooooos!
Posted by: C-C-G at October 22, 2007 10:10 PM (ysloH)
Posted by: Dave at October 23, 2007 12:28 AM (d/RyS)
Posted by: Dave at October 23, 2007 12:30 AM (d/RyS)
So just let me know what you want, okay?
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at October 23, 2007 02:15 AM (HcgFD)
It may not have been a bomb, but I would say that we can call that a terrorist act.
Posted by: C-C-G at October 23, 2007 08:38 PM (ysloH)
October 15, 2007
It's the Coverup that Kills You, Part 2
At Powerline this morning, Scott Johnson is keeping the screws on the editors of The New Republic in a post entitled It's the Coverup that Kills You, Part 2, in which he continues to hammer editor Franklin Foer and executive editor Peter Scoblic:
Johnson is keying in on what has emerged as the real story involving The New Republic in regards to the Scott Thomas Beauchamp stories. We know, due to expert testimony from civilians in the region and in the United States, from veterans and soldiers, and a formal military investigation, that Beauchamp’s claims were without merit. For all practical intents and purposes, Scott Beauchamp’s role in this story is over. The story of his editors at The New Republic, and why they have chosen to deceive both their critics and their readership, is the story now. To borrow a paraphrase from another time, what did the editors of TNR know, and when did they know it? How will the Washington Post and Newsweek react to being "punk'd" by Franklin Foer? What do their advertisers think about the magazine’s continued refusal to admit their editorial failures, and will they be disgusted enough to consider suspending or closing their accounts? The days and weeks ahead promise to be interesting for the editors of The New Republic.
On August 10, after assuring their readers that they had "not thus far uncovered factual evidence (aside from one key detail) to discount his personal dispatches" (how can a detail be key, but not factual?) the editors asked the Army to allow them, "or any other media outlet, for that matter," to speak with Beauchamp. This statement is particularly galling in retrospect, as we now know that it is TNR -- not the Army -- that has gagged Beauchamp. On September 7 "the editors" asked their author to cancel interviews he had scheduled with the Washington Post and Newsweek. Given their "commitment to the truth," one wonders why they would make such a request. But do they deny that they did? TNR editor Franklin Foer and executive editor Peter Scoblic seem to think that they can keep up this charade indefinitely, but it is only the indifference of the MSM that has let them get away with it for this long. "The editors" closed their August 10 update by saying that they "refused to rush to judgment on our writer or ourselves" -- virtually the only honest statement we've ever gotten from TNR on this matter. But it should not be the last. At some point they'll have to say something on the subject, only then the questions won't be about Beauchamp. They will be about "the editors."
Update: Beauchamp's second story, "Dead of Night" was quickly pegged from the very beginning as evidence of the fact that The New Republic was not making any attempt at all to fact-check Beauchamp's stories, back even before we knew his name was Beauchamp. In "Dead of Night" Beauchamp alleged the Iraqi Police must have committed a murder, because according to him, only Iraqi Police carry Glock pistols. Glock wishes that were so.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at 03:23 PM | Comments (28) | Add Comment | Trackbacks (Suck)
Posted by: DirtCrashr at October 15, 2007 05:58 PM (VNM5w)
Posted by: Capitalist Infidel at October 15, 2007 06:52 PM (Lgw9b)
What you said.
I think this whole sad and sordid affair is over.
The advertisers don't care.
The readers don't care.
The publishers don't care.
The editors don't care.
The only person who should care is "Gracie" who got fired for exposing STB's relationship with TNR and his "fact-checking", editing wife.
No, no one cares.
And the reason no one cares is because there is no sense of shame at TNR.
Which is surprising given Martin Peretz's bona fides and long standing history as an intellectual and professional writer/editor.
Oh well.
The best you can say is that it sucks to be them.
And it sucks to be us.
Sigh.
Just sayin'.
Posted by: MTT at October 15, 2007 07:05 PM (1xjmZ)
Trouble is, in the sequel, it's beginning to look like the editor will be the villian instead of the hero.
Posted by: Jim O'Sullivan at October 15, 2007 08:17 PM (i1Bn0)
Posted by: BigDaddyT at October 15, 2007 08:42 PM (NaYIu)
Just looke her up, look up the stories mentioned about her in the Urban Dictionary. Look up the stuff about her stories by GMontag on Slashdot.
Even easier, just read "Big Shame in a Small World" in the Examiner vs. "How Not to Steal a Cell Phone" in the New York Times". The read the Beauchamp stories.
You will see how it all fits.
Posted by: Anon at October 15, 2007 09:42 PM (otDb3)
But the fact is it's not useless and the truth needs to prevail. Heads need to roll. Keep up the good work my friend. Keep it up!
Posted by: T.Ferg at October 15, 2007 11:33 PM (j64ME)
Posted by: Banjo at October 16, 2007 09:19 AM (1DQ52)
=================
Posted by: kim at October 16, 2007 09:57 AM (5/X5o)
For anyone interested in doing the same, his email address is:
ffoer@tnr.com
Posted by: virtue001 at October 16, 2007 10:09 AM (rJQZO)
Posted by: David Stern at October 16, 2007 10:15 AM (aRi2a)
October 13, 2007
Another Questionable Fake War Story
Via a reader in the comments of the my most recent TNR post, a story about a solider wounded and a squad virtually wiped out in an apparent youth suicide bombing in Iraq in the Cleveland Daily Banner in Cleveland, TN:
The thing is, I can't find any such record of a young suicide bomber causing so many fatalities among U.S. troops in Iraq, or for that matter, even ten U.S. fatalities on Sept. 18 in total. Anti-war casualty clearinghouse icasualties.org has no record of such an attack, or even anything similar. According to U.S. Central Command Casualty Reports, there was one attack on Sept. 18, where 3 soldiers were killed and 3 wounded near Tikrit. There was nothing like a suicide bombing attack that killed ten soldiers and wounded two. A search of Google News also fails to uncover a similar account. Update: The military weighs in:
Christopher H. Bagwell, grandson of Nancy and Richard Hughes of Cleveland, was severely wounded Tuesday, Sept. 18, in Iraq. Bagwell and his squad leader were the only two survivors of a 12-member squad decimated when an Iraqi youth detonated explosives wrapped around his body. A graduate of York Institute and Tennessee Technological University in Cookeville, Bagwell spoke with his grandmother last week. She said the young soldier told her he had just passed the youthful bomber with his squad leader, with his squad following behind handing out candy to children. The Iraqi village was believed to be a friendly zone for the U.S. military. The youngster, believed to be 10 to 12 years old, detonated the explosives as the soldiers were walking by. Ten members of the squad were killed, along with the youngster.Bagwell was severely injured.
10/15 Update: Catherine Caruso of the Fort Lewis PAO responds via email:
Sir, After reviewing available information, we are unable to confirm the
story's legitimacy. Thank you. V/R, BRYON J. MCGARRY, 1Lt, USAF
OIC, JOC Public Affairs
Multi-National Corps - Iraq
4th Brigade, 2nd Infantry Division (Stryker Brigade Combat Team) is a
unit stationed here at Fort Lewis, and is currently deployed to Iraq.
Madigan Army Medical Center is also located on the installation, but I
do not have access to patient names or information and can't release
names of wounded Soldiers due to patient privacy laws- MAMC has their
own public affairs office which may be of more help if you would like to
contact wounded Soldiers who are assigned to the hospital. There was an incident on Sept. 18th in which three Soldiers from the
brigade's 2nd Battalion, 23rd Infantry Regiment, were killed... ...The editor of that paper called here a few minutes ago, and it appears
this may have been the same incident the paper referred to. I could not
answer all of his questions, but it appears he also believes the paper
may have inadvertently published inaccurate information re: the number
of casualties. For my part, I can confirm there was an incident that
date, but don't have details about the incident beyond what was in the
DoD release, nor do I have information about any Soldiers wounded in the
incident. However, 2-23 IN has suffered 10 casualties since their deployment in
April through their most recent loss on Sept. 22 (this includes all
causes- accidents, combat, and medical). It seems likely that this could
be the source of the confusion re: the number of Soldiers involved, if
this is the same incident in which the Soldier referenced in the story
was injured.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at 02:29 AM | Comments (23) | Add Comment | Trackbacks (Suck)
Posted by: Randy at October 13, 2007 02:55 AM (rDU/d)
Posted by: Bill Smith at October 13, 2007 03:30 AM (rmzjl)
The Leftinistra are SO needing a truthful phony soldier story.
Makes my warrior's blood boil.
Posted by: Snooper at October 13, 2007 03:56 AM (3Y48T)
Posted by: Banjo at October 13, 2007 08:32 AM (1DQ52)
http://www.mnf-iraq.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=14096&Itemid=128
Same unit. 3 dead, 3 WIA
Posted by: Chuck Simmins at October 13, 2007 11:09 AM (hASmp)
At the very least this is staggering incompetence by Larry C Bowers of the Cleveland Banner
Posted by: Grrrrrrrrrrrrr at October 13, 2007 11:45 AM (2wI6h)
The article reeks of the desire to "get a scoop" at the expense of the military.
As Blackfive states, this has got to stop.
Posted by: Snooper at October 13, 2007 12:31 PM (3Y48T)
The injured soldier may believe what was reported. He was injured badly enough to be evaced to Germany and may not remember or have been told the results of the attack. And the info passing through Grandma may have gotten a little fuzzy.
Posted by: Chuck Simmins at October 13, 2007 01:35 PM (hASmp)
http://www.the-news-tribune.com/news/local/v-lite/story/170957.html
(delete the - in "the-news-tribune". I had to add to get past a filter.
Posted by: Dusty at October 13, 2007 03:26 PM (1Lzs1)
That's the kind of fact checking Weekly World News used. Maybe BatBoy is reporting from Iraq for this fish wrapper?
Posted by: Purple Avenger at October 13, 2007 03:38 PM (s4ZqU)
Posted by: Andy B at October 13, 2007 03:58 PM (q1S2A)
http://www.thenews tribune.com/news/local/v-lite/story/170957.html
http://blogs.thenews tribune.com/military/2007/10/08/a_change_at_2nd_battalion_23rd_infantry
Posted by: daleyrocks at October 13, 2007 04:38 PM (0pZel)
Chris Bowers doesn't note any ranks, or names for that matter, because he didn't investigate any of the details, Andy. If he had, he would have ran into the brick wall of it not happening as he describes in his second paragraph.
Bowers didn't scoop anyone and I don't believe he planned to. This was first covered on October 4th in the Tacoma News Tribune. It was merely a local interest story and, for the most part, a tribute.
It's just too bad the "how it happened" was totally wrong. Bagwell's grandparents have my prayers, and humble thanks, for their grandson.
Posted by: Dusty at October 13, 2007 04:50 PM (1Lzs1)
This seems to be Same Song, Second Verse for the leftymedia:
* Story shows Bad Things happening in Iraq, run with it without verification.
* Story shows Good Things happening in Iraq, bury it.
Posted by: C-C-G at October 13, 2007 08:53 PM (ufhAS)
The local paper just printed what Grandma said. I've known a couple of soldiers that have been evacced from Iraq thru Landstuhl to Ft Lewis and there recollections of how they got there are somewhat fuzzy....along the lines...'I was in the truck...then I woke up and I was in the hospital at Fort Lewis'.
Posted by: Soldier's Dad at October 14, 2007 05:29 PM (YL5FC)
Posted by: TallDave at October 15, 2007 12:30 AM (r1Ip+)
Posted by: BohicaTwentyTwo at October 15, 2007 08:55 AM (oC8nQ)
Posted by: Purple Avenger at October 15, 2007 09:22 AM (6Yy5p)
Posted by: David at October 15, 2007 10:50 AM (K8BtQ)
Purple, it isn't known how the story's basic details originated and why it was so inaccurate. It may have been the result of an innocent misunderstanding and mixing of facts. As Tacoma's News Tribune reported, 6 members of the 4th Brigade, 2nd Infantry Division died in September; it's major has attended 10 ceremonies honoring 27 under his command.
If Bagwell recounted much of what has happened to him in one call to his grandparents, it could easily be misremembered.
You are allowing the ignorant, superficial and often deceitful respect of the military on the part of many on the Left, including those who inhabit the MSM, to get the best of you. Cynicism and suspicion is not warranted in this case, I think, and your snarky cariacature is, at best, premature and uncalled for at this time.
Posted by: Dusty at October 15, 2007 11:36 AM (GJLeQ)
However, I don't think they should be given an easy pass just because they are a small newspaper or had kind intentions. Bloggers are often held to fact finding standards before publishing a post, so how can we hold a newspaper with a staff of at least 2 to less of a standard?
Posted by: Holly at October 15, 2007 12:13 PM (KMpke)
Posted by: Capitalist Infidel at October 15, 2007 12:20 PM (Lgw9b)
I agree whole-heartedly, moreso if your "negligently" was intended as 'too casual'. It was good that CY brought attention to this and I commend him on it.
[Capitalist Infidel at October 15, 2007 12:20 PM]
Yes, I do wonder about it, CI. Every day, it seems. A fuller answer to that would be too complicated to go into here, so let me just say I try to take every case as it comes, especially so when I don't have a history in which to frame it, like link this new case of the Daily Banner. I did notice their paper had a story yesterday on the some of their local kids just entering the services. They are keeping tabs on their kids and IMHO honoring them by recognizing their decisions, (as I notice now that they have done since before the 9/11, judging by their archives).
So I have formed my opinion on this story, and my opinion of the Daily Banner is separate and much different in this light, which is why I responded to PA's comment when it is likely I wouldn't have had the story been done in the LAT, the NYT, etc.
Posted by: Dusty at October 15, 2007 01:45 PM (GJLeQ)
Posted by: capitano at October 17, 2007 09:05 PM (+NO33)
October 12, 2007
Goracle Honored
And to think, I wasn't even aware that they had a Nobel Prize for deceptive rhetoric.
I'm now selling "smug offsets" via Paypal.Posted by: Confederate Yankee at 06:58 AM | Comments (107) | Add Comment | Trackbacks (Suck)
Posted by: Pug at October 12, 2007 08:55 AM (r5zYa)
Posted by: Frederick at October 12, 2007 08:56 AM (IurQs)
Hey pug, frederick. It's funnier if there is some truth to it. Your doing the equivalent of making a cigar joke about Bush.
Posted by: buzz at October 12, 2007 10:50 AM (PZ/ZS)
No, the award isn't *for* anything anymore. It's debased itself into a credential in the authoritarian mutual-admiration society. It has drawn close to the Lenin Peace Prize, and so it completely discounted.
Cordially...
Posted by: Rick at October 12, 2007 11:44 AM (Ohkx7)
Posted by: leaf at October 12, 2007 11:52 AM (x7n0a)
Posted by: Grey Fox at October 12, 2007 12:12 PM (rfcTY)
Al Gore used junk science and unsupported assertions to peddle fear.
While we know global warming is in fact occurring, that isn't the end of the world. As a matter of pure fact, global warming and cooling are natural parts of long-term life on earth, and has been happening longer than there has been primates, much less the burning of fossil fuels.
The climate has been far colder than it is now, and it has been far warmer. Somehow, species adapted, and life went on.
The Goracle wants to blame people for warming, and indeed they may play a small part, but the earth warms and cools primarily because of the activity of the sun, geologic events, and asteroid impacts, events far beyond our control.
This we know for real science, not flawed climate models and politicals agendas.
As for the Nobel itself, it has been steadily cheapened in past years... Awarding it to terrorists cheapened it, at least among normal people, as does award a peace prize for someone who has done nothing for you know, peace, which has become the new un-standard. That it would be awarded to a man who produced a documentary every bit as factually accurate as Loose Change just put the final nail in the coffin lid.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at October 12, 2007 12:21 PM (0BhZ5)
Posted by: Me at October 12, 2007 12:21 PM (pZtEm)
Boy, sorry to have questioned such genius.
Forget all those climatologists and other respected scientists with their Ph.Ds from prestigous universities who all agree that human activity is a major contributor to global climate change and that it's far from just normal cyclical activity.
From now on, I'm going to trust those with Masters in English and people with Associates in HVAC and accounting who blog for a living!
Well-educated, globally-respected, research-experienced scientists BE GONE!
Posted by: notforsalethanks at October 12, 2007 12:43 PM (MyDKI)
Posted by: Mahon at October 12, 2007 12:44 PM (oFhek)
How about those Burmaese Monks, or Chinese democracy advocates?
I respect the NPP when it goes to someone who actually deserves it. Arafat received it for Chrissakes, not to mention El-Barradi and if we want to go way back, the leader of North Vietnam, Le Duc Tho, who celebrated this achievement by swallowing the South and driving refugees into the sea and the rest into re-education camps.
Posted by: Techie at October 12, 2007 12:53 PM (T+8Gr)
http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/news/article-23416151-details/Judge+attacks+nine+errors+in+Al+Gore's+'alarmist'+climate+change+film/article.do
Posted by: tjmmz01 at October 12, 2007 03:20 PM (dAzoD)
Posted by: Capitalist Infidel at October 12, 2007 03:51 PM (Lgw9b)
Posted by: Capitalist Infidel at October 12, 2007 03:53 PM (Lgw9b)
Posted by: SShiell at October 12, 2007 04:23 PM (8UXyu)
Wish folks would learn to read.
I might also point out that Global Warming is an "enemy" that the Left is saying we must fight as well...Those who live in greenhouses shouldn't throw stones!
Posted by: Grey Fox at October 12, 2007 05:25 PM (rfcTY)
The intense research conducted by the Norwegians included a marathon session during which they consumed massive quantities of regular soda while watching: The Day After Tommorow, Armagedon and Waterworld. The decision was made all the more rivetting as they were not allowed to go to the bathroom until they voted.
Posted by: davod at October 12, 2007 05:36 PM (llh3A)
Posted by: MikeM at October 12, 2007 05:43 PM (nyO8l)
Posted by: Grey Fox at October 12, 2007 06:10 PM (rfcTY)
That may be, but then again, at that time there weren't hundreds of millions of people living in low-lying coastal areas, who would be forced to relocate if the sea levels continue to rise. No one was around to experience the increased hurricane levels.
Species always adapt, that's just a given.
Posted by: Arbotreeist at October 12, 2007 07:56 PM (N8M1W)
Posted by: daleyrocks at October 12, 2007 08:47 PM (0pZel)
Can global climate change in 30 years? And if so, who's to say that in 2030 we won't be worried about global cooling again?
Posted by: C-C-G at October 12, 2007 10:11 PM (ufhAS)
Rumor has it that they are beginning to worry about Global Cooling NOW. That is why a lot of folks are talking about "climate change" instead of "global warming." Fact is, they just don't really know whats happening.
Posted by: Grey Fox at October 12, 2007 11:09 PM (rfcTY)
Posted by: C-C-G at October 12, 2007 11:38 PM (ufhAS)
Right, because heavy snowfall or cooler weather on a particular day in a particular location discounts in any way whatsoever the notion of global warming.
"Arbotreeist, in the 60s and early 70s people were worried about global cooling."
There was a downturn in global temps in that time period but the overall trend over the last 150 years has been that it's getting warmer, and there's little doubt that it will continue in that direction, given the current rate of fossil fuel consumption.
Posted by: Arbotreeist at October 12, 2007 11:58 PM (N8M1W)
That's why they have to use such tactics as placing temperature recording stations next to air conditioner exhausts and over burn barrels.
Posted by: C-C-G at October 13, 2007 12:37 AM (ufhAS)
Posted by: Arbotreeist at October 13, 2007 12:46 AM (N8M1W)
Posted by: Arbotreeist at October 13, 2007 12:53 AM (N8M1W)
Posted by: C-C-G at October 13, 2007 01:01 AM (ufhAS)
Posted by: Arbotreeist at October 13, 2007 01:28 AM (N8M1W)
Thanks for proving that you have no logical or reasonable explanation for the odd placement for those recording stations.
Precisely how did he prove that, CCG? By not answering your question? If somebody decides not to engage with you on your terms and your terms only, that proves that you're right and they're wrong?
Posted by: nunaim at October 13, 2007 08:51 AM (lJF4u)
This word "proof" you use, senor, I do not think it means what you think it means.
Posted by: nunaim at October 13, 2007 08:58 AM (lJF4u)
The Vatican would have loved you two a few hundred years ago when they were insisting the sun revolved around the earth, ya know.
Posted by: C-C-G at October 13, 2007 10:59 AM (ufhAS)
since you're not even willing to consider that placing recording stations over burn barrels might skew the results
Don't put words in my mouth.
Sure, this kind of thing skews the results. There are some who say that merely making the observations skews the results at some quantum level. The question, though, would be how much the results are skewed.
I would submit that the "proof" you have offered up is but an infinitesimal portion of all the weather readings that have been taken around the planet over the course of decades.
Posted by: nunaim at October 13, 2007 11:47 AM (lJF4u)
Iraq war "a nightmare with no end in sight" - No comments at all? Just another liberal Bush-basher who doesn't know what he's talking about? (Gen. Sanches, former commander of coalition forces in Iraq)
Posted by: he at October 13, 2007 01:51 PM (H2NPa)
Unsupported? What about the millions in the scientific community that have been saying what he says already, and are currently applauding him for bringing so much attention to the issue with his well-stated documentary?
Why do you try to mislead, sarcastically, by claiming it's unsupported and "junk science" - when the issues have been in numerous scientific journals across the world? Do you know what "junk science" even means?! I wonder...
It's not "fear." He was promoting awareness on a subject that scientists have been talking about for a long time. And he succeeded. Infact, that is the very reason he got the Peace Prize.
Just because YOU don't think recycling makes sense, or that because the world has been warm before we don't need to worry about the consequences of our uniquely wasteful actions, doesn't mean that's true either.
By the way, for fear tactics.. Look towards the current oil-war and how we got into it, for a quick lesson on "how to instill fear in the public."
Posted by: Jar at October 13, 2007 02:39 PM (ZMXWA)
Majority opinion does not science make.
Posted by: C-C-G at October 13, 2007 02:49 PM (ufhAS)
Take for example Hansen and his cabal who control all the raw temperature data and the algorithms for smoothing them. He also developed a model to describe the historical relationship between carbon dioxide and temperature. His goal was to plot a line which described the best historical fit. He then assumed causation instead of just correlation. How did he design tests of that causation theory holding all other variable constant? Was it even tested? Is it even possible to test?
Posted by: daleyrocks at October 13, 2007 04:54 PM (0pZel)
Posted by: nunaim at October 13, 2007 06:13 PM (lJF4u)
Can you answer the questions or not? I'm not interested in your deflection. The subject is anthropogenic global warming. We've got computer models telling us about various relationships between things and a lot of rabid believers in the computer models. Those believers want us to spend hundreds of billions of dollars and change
our lifestyles? Is all we've got computer models tightly controlled by a small group of people who also control the data or has actual testing of the hypothesis been done, you know, in accordance with the scientific method?
The AGW supporters should be able to answer these questions.
Posted by: daleyrocks at October 13, 2007 06:22 PM (0pZel)
Posted by: C-C-G at October 13, 2007 06:43 PM (ufhAS)
"The climate crisis is not a political issue; it is a moral and spiritual challenge to all of humanity," Gore said in comments e-mailed by his office 44 minutes after the prize was announced at 5 a.m. Eastern time. "It is also our greatest opportunity to lift global consciousness to a higher level."
Spiritual challenge, Gracie? Sounds like he is setting himself up as Pope of the Church of Anthropogenic Global Warming.
And I am sure Pope Gore will give you three a good price on indulgences... er... carbon offsets.
Posted by: C-C-G at October 13, 2007 07:13 PM (ufhAS)
Posted by: daleyrocks at October 13, 2007 07:41 PM (0pZel)
Posted by: daleyrocks at October 13, 2007 08:10 PM (0pZel)
Posted by: C-C-G at October 13, 2007 08:17 PM (ufhAS)
another good question of the models has always been can they be run in reverse? In other words, take current conditions and past data and predict past climate. my understanding is that they cannot be run in reverse, which would be a serious flaw to my mind.
Posted by: iconoclast at October 13, 2007 08:20 PM (9BPe+)
Of course, the fact that there is very little if any data from tests like this kinda gives one the impression that said tests have not been run, perhaps because the pseudo-scientists pushing this know what the results would be.
Posted by: C-C-G at October 13, 2007 08:23 PM (ufhAS)
Since I'm guessing that not many of the people who post here are climateologists--and thus not able to discuss the science with any credibility--let's stick with what we can see with our own eyes and to hell with the computer models.
Pollution is bad. Car exhaust is bad. The crap that spews out of smokestacks is likewise bad. How do we know? It makes you sick if you have to breathe a lot of it.
There are more and more cars and smokestacks all the time. That means that there's more bad stuff going into the air every day, which means more unsafe air advisories in places like LA (unless you think that unsafe air advisories are also a left-wing conspiracy, which opinion would not surprise me in the least).
Trying to stop the process from spiraling out of control is not a bad thing, and "spiraling" is the word I mean to use--population does not undergo linear growth, but speeds up as it takes place. Thus, all the pollution-producing things that people use get used more in the same proportion. More people equals more cars equals more pollution put into the air.
That's the bottom line. That's the deal, shorn of all the crapola of arguments about weather stations set up over blacktop.
Those of you who argue against who argue against climate change are essentially saying, "People cannot pollute the environment to any degree that we need to bother ourselves with it." You are, in essence, pro-pollution, because, after all, that's what the climate change people are trying to curb: pollution.
But you're not really pro-pollution, are you? I'd be stunned if you were. That's why the very existence of this argument is baffling to me. How can anyone seriously argue against preserving--and heck, maybe even improving--the place we live?
Posted by: nunaim at October 13, 2007 09:03 PM (7Cmj1)
Posted by: C-C-G at October 13, 2007 09:35 PM (ufhAS)
This is what the whole thing is about. The arguments are distractions from the main point, which is this: what do we do about our pollution? Or, more to the point, do you even care about our pollution?
Red herring? What a lame response...
Now, if I were doing things the way you generally do them, I would take this opportunity to say, "So, CCG, you do not deny that you are pro-pollution. Therefore, you are." But I won't, because it would be beneath me.
Posted by: nunaim at October 13, 2007 09:45 PM (7Cmj1)
Pollution and global warming are not directly connected. The theory of anthropogenic global warming assumes that carbon dioxide is causing the warming, not pollution, which is mostly solid, not gaseous carbon.
You really have no friggin' idea what you are talking about, and you're making yourself look very very stupid.
Posted by: C-C-G at October 13, 2007 09:52 PM (ufhAS)
In my post I specifically mention carbon-producing sources. Pretending that I didn't doesn't make it so.
So answer my question. You're pro-pollution, aren't you? You like the idea of sending crap into the atmosphere.
Posted by: nunaim at October 13, 2007 10:54 PM (7Cmj1)
Equating solid carbon particles from smoke and pollution with carbon dioxide, which is necessary for life on this planet (plants need it) is such a stupid mistake that it's clear that you haven't the foggiest idea of the science involved.
If you had any cojones you'd admit that you made a mistake, but you don't, so you won't.
Posted by: C-C-G at October 13, 2007 11:02 PM (ufhAS)
Why are you afraid to address the real issue facing us, rather than the phony issue?
I'm tempted to think that it's because with the phony issue, you can spend your days looking for web sites that document the fact that fifteen poorly-placed weather stations might conceivably skew data one-quintillionth of a percentage point.
That stuff's safer for you because, whatever somebody on the other side says, you can always shriek, "Nuh-UH! Junk science! Rammafrazzle global warming conspiracy!" and, I guess, you get off on that.
When it comes right down to the actual root issues, however--issues like "do we want to continue spewing carbon into the air via automobiles and power plants and so on?" you're afraid to engage. You pull out your thesaurus and complain about "red herrings" and "deflections" and base your entire argument on the fact that I used the word "pollution" to refer to atmospheric contamination from carbon sources.
Actually addressing the root issues that drive the whole debate are, I reckon, too difficult and, therefore, too scary for you to do.
Posted by: nunaim at October 13, 2007 11:05 PM (7Cmj1)
Why are you afraid to discuss the basics of global warming? Is it because you know nothing or because you know there's nothing there?
Posted by: daleyrocks at October 13, 2007 11:14 PM (0pZel)
Your entire argument boils down to: pollution is bad, global warming is bad, therefore pollution must cause global warming.
By the same logic, I could say crime is bad, pollution is bad, therefore crime causes pollution.
You make a nonsensical argument and then defend it to the death... you should apply at The New Republic... I hear there's at least one position open.
Posted by: C-C-G at October 13, 2007 11:17 PM (ufhAS)
Both of you think you're getting somewhere, but all it makes you look like is that you've dug deep into your barrel of smarts and come up empty-handed.
Let's strip away all the little things that so easily distract you: why are you a proponent of increasing carbon emissions?
Posted by: nunaim at October 13, 2007 11:18 PM (7Cmj1)
Posted by: C-C-G at October 13, 2007 11:24 PM (ufhAS)
Trying to disqualify people from talking about the subject because they are not climatologists
Nice attempt to twist my words into something that suits your needs. Unfortunately, your baldfaced lie is showing.
My suggestion was that since we aren't (to my knowledge) climate scientists, that we approach the topic in a way that can be discussed fruitfully by non-climate scientists.
Why, daleyrocks, are you in favor of increasing carbon emissions?
Posted by: nunaim at October 13, 2007 11:28 PM (7Cmj1)
Is water pollution part of the global warming discussion now or nunaim's point? How can you leave water pollution out if you are talking about things that are bad for mankind? Has that been factored into the AGW models?
Just more attempts at shape shifting to avoid the basic subject. Notice how he has still avoided answering questions.
Posted by: daleyrocks at October 13, 2007 11:29 PM (0pZel)
You're absurdly insistent that I answer your questions. Remember that? Remember how you demanded again and again that I answer some question that I had already answered?
You won't even pretend to answer my questions. Ever. In the Old Country, we called that "being a yellowbelly."
Posted by: nunaim at October 13, 2007 11:32 PM (7Cmj1)
"Since I'm guessing that not many of the people who post here are climateologists--and thus not able to discuss the science with any credibility--let's stick with what we can see with our own eyes and to hell with the computer models."
To my knowledge he is not a climatologist or a scientist and I do not think he has much credibility on the subject, yet he just won a nobel prize for his work in the area. I figure if he can talk about it I can talk about it. America is the land of opportunity. What are you afraid of here?
Do you need to consult your current talking points again?
Posted by: daleyrocks at October 13, 2007 11:35 PM (0pZel)
I learn from my mistakes; apparently you don't.
Posted by: C-C-G at October 13, 2007 11:36 PM (ufhAS)
Posted by: C-C-G at October 13, 2007 11:41 PM (ufhAS)
Posted by: Purple Avenger at October 14, 2007 02:09 AM (s4ZqU)
Anyway, now I'm scared. CCG informs me on his site that he pretty much knows where I live. That sounds like a veiled threat to me. I'd better beat a hasty retreat before he comes to the city where I work and finds me somehow and puts a burning bag of dog poop on the front doorstep.
The fact remains that those of you who fight so strenuously against the whole climate change thing are, for some mysterious reason, actally for degradation of our environment. I can't imagine why, since you live here, too. If you ever feel like explaining your position (since, after all, it is the very root of the discussion you're having here), I'll be all ears.
Remember: Gore's Nobel is nice for Gore, but it's not the biggest problem we face in this, our life.
Posted by: nunaim at October 14, 2007 09:46 AM (YHa1b)
Mars is warming too, and faster than the Earth.
So tell me, are the Martians driving SUVs?
Did they elect a Republican President?
Did Halliburton open a branch on Mars?
Or could it be, just perhaps, that the warming is being caused by something exterior to both Mars and Terra? Something like, oh, I dunno, THE SUN?
Posted by: C-C-G at October 14, 2007 11:05 AM (ufhAS)
There is no debate, the proof is in, to deny is to sin.
If you disagree with their mahdi AlGore, you're a heathen that hates the earth, and must be sleeping with most of the board of Haliburton.
The whole debate isn't about the earth and it's NATURAL cycles anymore to these gaea worshippers, it's about destroying the way of life of the US through decimation of it's key industries.
The fact that AlGore was awarded a peace prize for a movie about him giving a speech in front of a crappy slideshow, is proof positive that this "award" is a joke now. Arafat?, 'nuff said.
Posted by: Conservative CBU at October 14, 2007 12:19 PM (La7YV)
If you've bothered reading the posts up above, you've seen that I've tried to look past the bread and circuses represented by Gore and get at the root issues that Gore is addressing.
The question repeatedly asked--and just as frequently avoided by daleyrocks and CCG--is why they are in favor of increased carbon emissions.
There are a few possibilities for this:
A. They're against decreasing carbon emissions simply because it's something that Lefties want.
B. They don't believe that carbon emissions exist.
C. They think that it is literally impossible for human-produced carbon emissions to have any negative effect on the planet.
D. They are glad that carbon emissions will have a negative effect.
E. They think that carbon emissions will actually have a positive effect on the planet.
This would be a more productive direction for the conversation than any of these:
A. Prattling on about red herrings and deflections.
B. Snarking about SUVs on the planet Mars.
C. Trying to conduct a highly technical discussion out of our fields of expertise. (I'm assuming, again, that none of us involved in this discussion are climate scientists. If I'm wrong, please set me straight.)
D. Cracking open the old chestnut about how everything that Lefties feel strongly about (but that the Right doesn't) is a liberal "religion."
The whole AGW topic can, in fact, be discussed rationally without descending into the arcane matters of sample size, computer models and data skews. To do so, however, would be to confront the wellsprings of one's beliefs/prejudices/whatever without the security blanket of snark and other evasive maneuvers.
That's too much to ask, apparently.
Posted by: nunaim at October 14, 2007 12:55 PM (YHa1b)
Posted by: nunaim at October 14, 2007 12:56 PM (YHa1b)
It does not.
And you're looking like a 5-year-old who doesn't get his way on the playground.
If that's the image you want to project, fine, but don't expect to be treated as an adult as long as you're acting like that.
A question that does have relevance is why Mars is warming if humans are the cause of all global warming. Why won't you answer that one? Simple, because it demolishes your entire argument.
Posted by: C-C-G at October 14, 2007 01:07 PM (ufhAS)
"The question repeatedly asked--and just as frequently avoided by daleyrocks and CCG--is why they are in favor of increased carbon emissions."
I don't recall saying anything of the sort, I have merely been questioning the AGW jihadis who want us to change our entire way of life and redistribute global income based on what I see as questionable science, data and computer modeling. nunaim has presented nothing to strengthen the pro-AGW argument nor did I expect him to.
Al Gore tellingly refuses to debate the subject just as nunaim has here. Nunaim reverted to an "air pollution makes you sick if you breath enough of it," how can you be in favor of pollution argument, which somehow translates to global warming. Again, I'm not propollution, but I don't like the greenhouse gas effect from biofuels, which he doesn't address, water pollution, other types of pollution, but I am in favor of cost benefit analysis.
If he does indeed want to address AGW, it all goes back to the credibility of what its proponents call their "science", the data and their models, not nunaim's feelings about pollution and the planet.
I know progressives are all about feelings, but its a tough way to rationalize spending hundreds of billions of dollars, redistributing the worlds wealth, and changing the way we live. I'd like to see a little more critical examinination of the hypothesis in this country instead of the censorship we've had by the media and the academy.
Posted by: daleyrocks at October 14, 2007 02:13 PM (0pZel)
You really didn't expect a lefty to play by the same rules he demands we play under, did you?
Posted by: C-C-G at October 14, 2007 03:07 PM (ufhAS)
Posted by: john bryan at October 14, 2007 03:20 PM (v9dwy)
A question that does have relevance is why Mars is warming if humans are the cause of all global warming. Why won't you answer that one? Simple, because it demolishes your entire argument.
Nobody of note is saying that humans are behind all climate change; rather, that they are exacerbating the situation.
Question answered; straw man trampled underfoot; argument still intact.
Posted by: nunaim at October 14, 2007 03:29 PM (YHa1b)
I am in favor of cost benefit analysis
Now we're getting somewhere. The next question would be what you see as the costs and benefits of either curbing emissions or letting them grow.
Posted by: nunaim at October 14, 2007 03:31 PM (YHa1b)
Answer: they can't.
Here's a few more facts about your Dear Leader Algore that you might consider, courtesy Investor's Business Daily:
• He [Gore] conveniently ignores the 98% of Antarctica that has actually cooled in the last 35 years to focus on the 2% that is warming.
• His film "An Inconvenient Truth" depicts Florida going underwater, yet that would take a 13-foot ocean rise; the U.N. forecasts a mean sea-level increase of only 13 inches by the century's end.
• Gore's movie shows a polar bear drowning in search of icebergs; the polar bear population has quintupled in 40 years.
Fascinating, hmmm? Perhaps if you paid attention to the facts instead of the hype, you'd not look like such a fool.
Posted by: C-C-G at October 14, 2007 03:35 PM (ufhAS)
Nunaim keeps bobbing and weaving, the Hamster Dance, never engage. The meathead doesn't understand that you can't get to the point of a cost benefit analysis unless you buy into the premises of the AGW hypothesis, which he refuses to discuss. He's a human mobius strip on this. He can't break out of his loop.
Posted by: daleyrocks at October 14, 2007 04:15 PM (0pZel)
If he does indeed want to address AGW, it all goes back to the credibility of what its proponents call their "science", the data and their models, not nunaim's feelings about pollution and the planet.
That implies to me that you believe either that carbon emissions do nothing to negatively affect the planet, or that the negative effects aren't actually negative. If we are to discard the predictions that you deride, then that's what we're left with. Am I correct?
I'm trying to engage productively here, but we need to agree what we're talking about before we can get anywhere.
Posted by: nunaim at October 14, 2007 04:51 PM (YHa1b)
Please quit with the red herrings. We know you've caught your limit, and want to show them off, but please consider us duly impressed with your red herring skill.
Posted by: C-C-G at October 14, 2007 05:13 PM (ufhAS)
"carbon emissions do nothing to negatively affect the planet, or that the negative effects aren't actually negative"
The thread is about AGW and he is talking about "negative effects," dodging the issue once more. I don't see the words warming or temperature in his latest comment. He's still where he was last night where he tried to side track the thread - because he breathes pollution and pollution makes you sick so it is bad so we have to stop it.
Do you think I can get a Nobel Prize for that logic train too? You need a license to be as stupid and dishonest as nunaim and not institutionalized, don't you?
Posted by: daleyrocks at October 14, 2007 05:14 PM (0pZel)
Posted by: C-C-G at October 15, 2007 08:01 PM (ufhAS)
Posted by: daleyrocks at October 16, 2007 12:24 AM (0pZel)
October 11, 2007
TNR Has Too Many Readers?
An interesting email from "Mahon," who states he is a The New Republic reader... or would be, if they didn't cancel his subscription.
Their advertisers must be thrilled that they are turning people away... don't you think?
Try this on. Although mainstream Republican, I have subscribed to TNR for many years and liked it (more for Jed Perl and the book reviews lately, but never mind.) So I get a bulk email from Marty Peretz asking me to renew, and I "reply" politely castigating them for the Beauchamp matter and suggesting I was unlikely to send them any more money until they came clean. Two weeks later I get a $31.00 check from them apparently refunding the balance of my subscription – which I never asked them to cancel in the first place. In fact, although I think they look like fools over Beauchamp I no doubt would have renewed eventually, and probably still will. They start bugging you six months early anyway, so why not fuss a while? This seems like bizarre behavior for a small magazine. Possible explanations:None of which really computes. You would think they would either ignore me or send back a note saying – something – and hoping I would reconsider, to which I would have been receptive. The whole thing suggests a pervasive lack of adult supervision top to bottom. Mahon
- They are getting so many cancellations they just figured this was another one and dropped it in the hopper.
- They have some new business strategy that calls for only having lefties as subscribers, so I've been purged.
- Someone there is so huffy about this that he/she just said "well, we’ll fix you" regardless of business implications.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at 11:37 PM | Comments (37) | Add Comment | Trackbacks (Suck)
Posted by: C-C-G at October 11, 2007 11:56 PM (ufhAS)
Posted by: iconoclast at October 12, 2007 01:38 AM (TzLpv)
Declamations of sharkiness are doubtless enjoyable, but meanwhile, what's your lead explanation for this anecdote?
Posted by: AMac at October 12, 2007 06:50 AM (eJY8t)
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at October 12, 2007 06:52 AM (HcgFD)
Posted by: Banjo at October 12, 2007 08:25 AM (1DQ52)
Posted by: Frederick at October 12, 2007 08:54 AM (IurQs)
TNR was recognized as "center-left," for much of it's existence, but that changed long ago, as soon as Franklin Foer took over:
The new ownership and redesign completes a period of change at the magazine, which shifted markedly to the political left under its new editor, Franklin Foer, and has sought to shake off its association with the Bush administration's pursuit of the Iraq war.
TNR isn't Mother Jones or The Nation (yet), but there is no doubt in anyone's mind that the magazine took a hard editorial tilt to the political far left as soon as Foer took the reins.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at October 12, 2007 10:45 AM (0BhZ5)
The same rationale might also be used when TNR shops for contributions from potential donors -- demographic studies could show the magazine goes to all the "right" people, so the donors know their money won't be tainted by association with people who think...you know...like them.
Posted by: Brett at October 12, 2007 11:19 AM (4p9AT)
Posted by: Frederick at October 12, 2007 11:28 AM (IurQs)
Posted by: Capitalist Infidel at October 12, 2007 11:51 AM (Lgw9b)
What are the opinions of those blogs on Hillary? She hardly shows up on most left-wing blog polls, I believe, yet she can hardly be called a centrist...
Posted by: Grey Fox at October 12, 2007 12:09 PM (rfcTY)
Posted by: Dusty at October 12, 2007 01:02 PM (1Lzs1)
Indeed. He cut taxes and was for a strong defense. JFK would be right at home in today's GOP.
Posted by: C-C-G at October 12, 2007 09:25 PM (ufhAS)
Please, Kitty Kelley?
Posted by: SteveMG at October 12, 2007 10:10 PM (Ky+CX)
http://www.clevelandbanner.com/NF/omf/daily_banner/news_story.html?rkey=0068707+cr=gdn
Which claimed....
Christopher H. Bagwell, grandson of Nancy and Richard Hughes of Cleveland, was severely wounded Tuesday, Sept. 18, in Iraq.
Bagwell and his squad leader were the only two survivors of a 12-member squad decimated when an Iraqi youth detonated explosives wrapped around his body....
Dose not seem real to me. No such event happened on sept 18 as far as I know and you would think 10 americans killed is a single suicide bombing would have been a huge news story in the MSM. This seems like BS.
Fake news story?
Posted by: dlo at October 13, 2007 12:06 AM (2wI6h)
It takes a really big story before the media will feed on itself - spending anything close to the same amount of time tearing down another news outlet or story as they spent ripping down a citizen or institution like the military.
With some, like the Nogunri story out of the Korean War, the media is so in love with the idea of the original, they keep a myth alive permanently even after key facts and witnesses turn out to be identified clearly as liars.
Posted by: usinkorea at October 13, 2007 01:20 AM (uU43F)
Posted by: DWPittelli at October 13, 2007 07:10 AM (9eCQU)
Posted by: Xanthippas at October 13, 2007 01:52 PM (018Z+)
"Never assume malice when stupidity will suffice"
Of course, were Xanthippas one of the editors both conditions might hold true.
Posted by: iconoclast at October 13, 2007 02:48 PM (9BPe+)
Expelling Hate
Think back to your college days, and imagine this scenario:
You wake up on morning to discover that flyers speaking of hatred towards a minority group are plastered all over campus, and written at the bottom of the flyer is information that frames a group you belong to as the authors. Sadly, this is not a hypothetical situation. What should happen to the group of radicals that attempted to frame a student group with what most rational people would construe as hate speech? The student group targeted has an idea, buased upon commits first posited by the Student Association Executive Vice President. Only time will tell if the university has the integrity to act swiftly and justly in dealing with this slanderous attack.Posted by: Confederate Yankee at 12:17 PM | Comments (35) | Add Comment | Trackbacks (Suck)
Posted by: Larry Sheldon at October 11, 2007 01:48 PM (mg373)
I bet they'll take the first opportunity to express the idea that people need to get along, and then quickly drop the idea of expelling anyone.
IMO if that were me I'd be suing someone for defamation.
Posted by: memomachine at October 11, 2007 02:42 PM (3pvQO)
In Life its Ownself, Dan Jenkins advised: "Always bet the under on wives at the Superbowl."
Good advice for college administrators, too.
Posted by: capitano at October 11, 2007 06:05 PM (+NO33)
An oldie but a goodie.
Posted by: nunaim at October 11, 2007 07:14 PM (22/Qe)
This isn't very much the same, except that it's a dirty trick aimed at looking like someone else was saying something bad. I don't know that Rove was making up really nasty, racist and derogatory smears, and claiming that someone else was saying them.
Also, who's running for office here? Who's the "candidate" being managed? Apparently no one. And who's the "opposition?" Someone who simply has a different point of view, and wants to discuss it?
So what once was a dirty tricks game played by opposing candidates in elections, is now used to smear groups of people you disagree with, in order to avoid any actual discussion of issues, evidently because their position might actually be more rational than you could admit.
And you don't see a difference.
Posted by: notropis at October 11, 2007 09:12 PM (flTrH)
Posted by: C-C-G at October 11, 2007 09:30 PM (ufhAS)
nunaim, it may be easier to believe it's a Rove tactic if you could provide evidence of where you read it.
That's why I used a question mark. I've been trying to locate the story again, without success. Maybe it wasn't Rove; I just can't imagine who else I might have read that kind of story about. There aren't that many political operatives whose strategies get hashed over in public.
If I find the link I'll post it. It was interesting, whoever did it.
Posted by: nunaim at October 11, 2007 11:48 PM (Lzdep)
Posted by: nunaim at October 11, 2007 11:50 PM (Lzdep)
No indignation, faux or otherwise, just an appeal for a bit of logic, and a little less knee-jerk "it's just like Rove did" -- but I know I'm barking up the wrong tree on both counts.
Posted by: notropis at October 11, 2007 11:55 PM (flTrH)
Posted by: C-C-G at October 12, 2007 12:16 AM (ufhAS)
You are even more messed up than I thought.
Posted by: daleyrocks at October 12, 2007 01:26 AM (0pZel)
You are proud they have adopted the tactics of someone you hate?
Slow down there, Tex. This is what we call "projecting."
Posted by: nunaim at October 12, 2007 09:00 AM (CrydK)
"Slow down there, Tex. This is what we call "projecting.""
Sorry cupcake, but you are the one who raised the subject of the Rove tactic above. Try again.
Posted by: daleyrocks at October 12, 2007 12:03 PM (0pZel)
Posted by: C-C-G at October 12, 2007 09:26 PM (ufhAS)
Posted by: daleyrocks at October 12, 2007 11:53 PM (0pZel)
In one case, even his own staff balked when he wanted to start a rumor that one of his opponents enjoyed intimate congress with farm animals.
"You can't say that!" his staffers protested. "It's horrible. And there's no way you can prove it!"
"I know I can't prove it," Johnson replied. "But let's make the sonofabitch _deny_ it!"
Of course, I don't know if LBJ is the right party for your needs...
Posted by: richard mcenroe at October 14, 2007 03:00 PM (AZziM)
Posted by: Purple Avenger at October 15, 2007 10:05 AM (6Yy5p)
It's The Coverup That Kills You
Scott at Powerline weighed in last night on the Beauchamp Controversy with It's the coverup that kills you: A case study.
A taste:As for The New Republic, they are quite aware of the allegations being leveled against them of incompetence and a cover-up, as they are here every day, usually several times a day. You could say they are among my biggest fans...
Why would Beauchamp go silent and TNR along with him? Well, there can really only be one reason: the Army isn't stonewalling, its investigation isn't a whitewash, and Beauchamp's commanding officer isn't a liar. We already knew Beauchamp's stories weren't true, but now we must conclude that Beauchamp has told his editors at TNR that he no longer stands by his tales of petty cruelty and serious misconduct by himself and the men in his unit.

Posted by: Confederate Yankee at 07:14 AM | Comments (26) | Add Comment | Trackbacks (Suck)
Look at the savage attacks on Limbaugh. The attacks on everyone who noticed that this Frost crowd had every chance to get private insurance, instead deciding that those of us who decided that we couldn't raise four kids working part time would pay for their kids.
We are in the fight of our lives and half of us don't know it.
Posted by: Peter at October 11, 2007 11:56 AM (d/RyS)
Price of someone to check your blog: $10.00 per hour.
HAVING TNR checking your blog: Priceless
Posted by: GM Roper at October 11, 2007 12:55 PM (CglRh)
Posted by: Purple Avenger at October 11, 2007 06:11 PM (9VfIu)
Posted by: nunaim at October 11, 2007 07:18 PM (22/Qe)
Posted by: Banjo at October 12, 2007 08:29 AM (1DQ52)
Posted by: nunaim at October 12, 2007 08:58 AM (CrydK)
Yea, just fessing up, squaring the record, and taking your medicine is something a real man would never consider.
Posted by: Purple Avenger at October 12, 2007 11:01 AM (9VfIu)
Posted by: C-C-G at October 12, 2007 10:14 PM (ufhAS)
October 10, 2007
Down In the Swamp
It was amusing to read Ezra Klein's What Has Happened to the Right? this morning, the sites he linked to, and then read Klien's comments section. Clearly, Klein views conservatives--and conservative bloggers and blog readers in particular--as having no moral fiber at all, while implying his own side's moral supremacy.
Klein laments:There is an inherent and flagrant dishonesty in Klein's wailing and gnashing of teeth, for it is not only the right that has those souls who are "sick and twisted and tumorous and ugly." How quickly he forgets that Daily Kos posters planned to do opposition research to hopefully "out" the son of Supreme Court nominee John Roberts... until it was discovered he was four-years old. It is an obscure left-wing blogger that has become the poster-child for cyberstalking. And while Klein intones that it is only a mater of time before a conservative does something horrible, the fact remains that to date, only a left-wing Indymedia journalist has been driven to murder purely to make a political statement. We can go back and forth for hours, arguing cites over which side is "better" than the other, each side certain in their conviction that the other is the embodiment of evil, but that would accomplish nothing. The fact of the matter is that both sides have extremists capable of great barbarity and cruelty, we should all do more to denounce them, and therein lies the rub. Klein is willing to attack "the right," but is mute and blind to those on the left that have equal amount of vitriol as those he criticizes, or worse. Before he claims the moral high ground, perhaps he should make sure that he and his allies aren't also neck-deep in the swamp.
Something has gone wrong on the Right. Become sick and twisted and tumorous and ugly. To visit Michelle Malkin's cave is to see politics at its most savage, its most ferocious, its most rageful. They say they've spent the past week smearing a child and his family because that child was fair game -- he and his family spoke of their experience receiving health care through the State Children's Health Insurance Program. For this, right wingers travel to their home, insinuate that the family is engaged in large-scale fraud, make threatening phone calls to the family, interrogate the neighbors as to the family's character and financial state. This is the politics of hate. Screaming, sobbing, inchoate, hate. It would never, not in a million years, occur to me to drive to the home of a Republican small business owner to see if he "really" needed that tax cut. It would never, not in a million years, occur to me to call his family and demand their personal information. It would never occur to me to interrogate his neighbors. It would never occur to me to his smear his children. The shrieking, atavistic ritual of personal destruction the right roars into every few weeks is something different than politics. It is beyond politics. It was done to Scott Beauchamp, a soldier serving in Iraq. It was done to college students from the University of California, at Santa Cruz. Currently, it is being done to a child and his family. And think of those targets: College students, soldiers, children. It can be done to absolutely anyone. This is not politics. This is, in symbolism and emotion, a violent group ritual. It is savages tearing at the body of a captured enemy. It is the group reminding itself that the Other is always disingenuous, always evil, always lying, always pitiful and pathetic and grotesque. It is a bonding experience -- the collaborative nature of these hateful orgies proves that much -- in which the enemy is exposed as base and vile and then ripped apart by the community. In that way, it sustains itself, each attack preemptively justifying the next vicious assault, justifying the whole hateful edifice on which their politics rest.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at 12:07 PM | Comments (46) | Add Comment | Trackbacks (Suck)
Um, does Klein think it is wrong to expose a complete fraud, just because the guy is liberal?
I guess the new standard is that liberals can never do anything wrong, ever, and if you even suggest they are less than dishonest, even when they clearly are dishonest, you are guilty of 'hate'.
That liberal Koolaid must be delicious.
Posted by: Ken McCracken at October 10, 2007 12:27 PM (6g1gX)
Posted by: David Caskey, MD at October 10, 2007 12:42 PM (G5i3t)
Klein links favorably to Jim Henley, who claims that conservative bloggers wanted to get Jamil Hussein "arrested or killed."
The fact of the matter, of course, is that Jamil Hussein is just a pseudonym, and therefore, can't be killed any more than could be Mark Twain or Lemony Snicket.
The bigger irony?
No less than a half dozen bloggers, including Michelle Malkin, have known the real identity of the man hiding behind the pseudonym since February, and yet, we've purposefully not published that information on our blogs in order to keep him from getting "arrested or killed."
To add further irony, the comment about fragging Scott Beauchamp was created by the liberal blogger Henley linked, not the conservative bloggers he discusses.
Details, details...
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at October 10, 2007 12:43 PM (EPsu8)
Posted by: Tim K at October 10, 2007 02:58 PM (+qxBO)
Lighten up, Francis!
This is all too typical of the left. Michelle simply did some footwork and makes an argument that perhaps the Frost's aren't exactly incapable of providing their own health insurance, which ironically is irrelevant because the Frosts' are already eligible for SCHIP as it stands.
Conservatives are making a reasoned argument against the expansion of an entitlement program, whereas the liberals are decrying character assassination all the while practicing it. Good grief.
Posted by: mindnumbrobot at October 10, 2007 03:50 PM (d5LvD)
Just when I think the left has no capacity left to amaze me with their hypocrisy, they come up with a whole new level.
Posted by: Conservative CBU at October 10, 2007 04:23 PM (La7YV)
Proving that Klein is not a journalist.
Posted by: Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr at October 10, 2007 04:38 PM (gkobM)
Posted by: Banjo at October 10, 2007 09:11 PM (1DQ52)
Posted by: capitano at October 10, 2007 09:47 PM (+NO33)
Therefore, anyone that disagrees with a lefty is prima facie defective in some way--according to them--be it morally, intellectually, or some other form of defect.
Posted by: C-C-G at October 10, 2007 10:09 PM (ufhAS)
Proving that Klein is not a journalist.
Exactly, what if he got the wrong answer; better to follow the golden rule when pushing a story -- "don't ask, don't tell."
Posted by: capitano at October 10, 2007 11:07 PM (+NO33)
"Proving that Klein is not a journalist."
I'm assuming this is meant to highlight Malkin's bonafides as an investigative journalist, considering she went all Philip Marlowe on the Frost family. Yet it seems to me that any journalist worth the title would go after the actual SCHIP program itself, and NOT the family shilling for it.
As it is, the Dems laid a trap and you guys fell for it. You have been goaded into actually criticizing and investigating an American family and for what? To score a political point.
When will you guys realize that ruining people's lives to score political points is not admirable, and it's not conservative either?
Posted by: James at October 11, 2007 06:06 AM (zdpq+)
On the other hand if by all this you mean to lay a liberal guilt trip on us, I think you're peddling your fish in the wrong market.
Since SCHIP already exists, expansion necessarily involves analyzing who qualifies now and who would qualify under the expansion. This can be done hypothetically or by anecdote (as with the Frosts). It's not our fault that the Baltimore Sun reporter is so partisan or naive that he failed to anticipate obvious questions regarding the Frosts.
Ruining peoples' lives? Please. Al Sharpton ruined peoples lives in the Tawana Brawley fiasco; Nifong ruined peoples lives in Durham; asking a few questions of people who have voluntarily thrust themselves in the national spotlight hardly qualifies.
Posted by: capitano at October 11, 2007 07:50 AM (+NO33)
First...I'd like to remind you that the Frost family had already been investigated, not by Malkin, not by the Baltimore Sun, but by the state agency overseeing the SCHIP program...and as we know the Frost family not only qualified for benefits but they have already received them.
If you think that decision was wrong, perhaps it might be more appropriate to direct your wrath towards the administrators of the program rather than the Frost family themselves.
(It also makes Malkin's "investigative reporting" moot, more an exercise in mudslinging than actual newsgathering.)
What has the Frost family done that's wrong? Shilled for the Democrats? Hey...that's unfortunate, but it's not WRONG. Last I checked, that used to be perfectly legitimate.
The Frosts have committed no crime. They have defrauded no one. They have spoken their minds, and though I may disagree, I WILL NOT CONDEMN THEM FOR IT.
Nor will I invade their privacy so I can second-guess all the SCHIP eligibility requirements they have already met.
Nor will I fall into the trap of being so blinded by idealogical hatred that I will stoop so low as to pick a fight with a couple of brain damaged kids or their unfortunate parents.
Yes, the Dems thought the Frost kids would be trump cards making it impossible to argue against SCHIP. But that's not true, and we know it. And so what? Let's not forget, the right is not without their own trump cards... (9-11 anyone?)
Surely if SCHIP was a bad program, it would STILL be a bad program if no one had ever heard the name Graeme Frost, right?
Argue the issue. Forget the sideshow. And don't pretend that Michelle Malkin is, you know, an actual journalist.
Posted by: James at October 11, 2007 10:44 AM (JleE4)
Hey, Al Sharpton is a racist snake who has been demonstrably wrong several times too many. Let's not use him as the standard for our own behavior, huh?
Posted by: James at October 11, 2007 10:48 AM (JleE4)
@ James
Allow me to retort
Since the Frost family *already* is qualified for the SCHIP program under it's older eligibility rules then there's actually no rationale for using the Frost family to argue for the *expansion* of those eligibility rules.
Posted by: memomachine at October 11, 2007 11:22 AM (3pvQO)
Posted by: James at October 11, 2007 12:59 PM (JleE4)
I think most serious people unfamiliar with SCHIP were understandably surprised to find out these folks had kids in private schools, lived in a 3000 s.f. house, and owned commercial properties. So the natural reaction was a.) this program is already too lenient, or b.) this family is under-reporting its income/assets and gaming the system.
Unlike you, since it's Federal money many of us do not share your confidence in Maryland's ability or motivation to fully investigate whether applicants comply with the program's guidelines. In fact, for the past several months President Bush has been pressuring States to conduct outreach to actual uninsured poor kids and to quit doling out SCHIP funds to adults. (Did you know that was going on? I didn't.) So when these facts surface about the Frosts, the next question is did the reporter not care or was he just so invested in pushing propaganda that he purposely glossed over these red flags.
What Michelle Malkin did was visit with one of Frost's neighbors who confirmed that they were "struggling" and her own assessment was that their home was on the low end of the appraisal range. In other words, she argued against the notion that the Frosts were scam artists. So yes, I would call that journalism -- far more informative than the puff piece Baltimore Sun, which raised more questions than it answered.
And I didn't say "Al Sharpton does it too." Read what I said; I was responding to your notion that investigating the Frosts had ruined their lives. Al Sharpton's hyperbole in the Tawanna Brawley case led to arson and death -- that's ruining someone's life. To a similar but lesser extent, Nifong ruined 3 young men's lives. Unless the Frosts are trolling the web or reading the New York Times, they have been barely inconvenienced.
I stand by what I wrote but you're welcome to continue spinning away.
Posted by: capitano at October 11, 2007 04:00 PM (+NO33)
As capitano pointed out, passing journalism 101 would have obligated most reporters to investigate the family to some degree rather than acting as stenographers for the democrats. How exactly did examining public records and driving by a house after the Frost family put themselves in the public eye destroy their lives? Ann Coulter had a great riff on Democrats and their use of Absolute Moral Authority figures in her book last year. Is this along the lines of progressive fantasies about Bush shredding the constitution without being able to point to examples of the victims of the shredding? The hysteria on left seems about the same and when they are discovered trying to slip a fast one by the American public they scream like stuck pigs. I believe the point that the right is making is that with a little more thorough research, better absolute moral authority figures could have been found to support the march toward socialized medicine.
Posted by: daleyrocks at October 11, 2007 05:12 PM (0pZel)
Ummmm, yes.
Posted by: Purple Avenger at October 11, 2007 06:13 PM (9VfIu)
In that thread, Ezra and others repeatedly said that right-wingers had stooped to "smearing" and "attacking" the Frost's 12 year old son. Funny thing though, every time I asked them to produce an actual quote to back that up, I got plenty of insults in return, but they couldn't do it. Not once. No quote. No reference.
Eventually some of them tried to claim that attacking the credibility of the family's finances is the same as attacking the 12 year old son. Can you believe that?
Posted by: John Rohan at October 11, 2007 06:47 PM (9kidZ)
Was it a conservative reporter, perhaps for FoxNews, that first brought the Frosts to the public eye?
Nay, it was a lefty reporter for the Baltimore Sun.
If there is opprobrium for exposing this family to public scrutiny, surely it belongs to those who first did so.
Posted by: C-C-G at October 11, 2007 08:07 PM (ufhAS)
When a family starts receiving threatening emails and phone calls and has strangers stalking around their neighborhood looking at their house and place of employment and digging into their financial records and harrasing their neighbors, it's not called "asking questions," it's called being a total frickin PSYCHOPATH!
If a leftie did this to someone on the right, you people would be LIVID! Absolutely livid.
I'm surprised Malkin wasn't digging through their garbage or installing hidden cameras in their bathroom. It truly seems there is nothing she would NOT do to carry out a character assassination.
Posted by: notforsalethanks at October 12, 2007 11:53 AM (MyDKI)
When a family starts receiving threatening emails and phone calls and has strangers stalking around their neighborhood looking at their house and place of employment and digging into their financial records and harrasing their neighbors, it's not called "asking questions," it's called being a total frickin PSYCHOPATH!
threatening emails - Have they released any of the e-mails? I haven't looked. Who gave out their e-mail addy?
phone calls - Have they released any tapes of threatening calls? I haven't looked. Caller ID should help them track who is harrassing them and law enforcement may be able to help.
stalking around their neighborhood looking at their house - You mean driving by on public property don't you?
digging into their financial records - reviewing public financial records - Fixed that for you.
It's called reporting. Take off your blinders.
Posted by: daleyrocks at October 12, 2007 12:16 PM (0pZel)
Posted by: C-C-G at October 12, 2007 09:27 PM (ufhAS)
Posted by: Brad at October 13, 2007 06:45 PM (f55Vt)
October 09, 2007
The New Republic Re-Interviewed Beauchamp... Over a Month Ago
For reasons as yet unknown, Memeorandum.com dredged up a Josh Marshall entry on Talking Points Memo from August 10 this past Sunday afternoon. Marshall cited a subscribers-only post by the editors of The New Republic released the same day, captured in its entirety by Google's cache.
It bears reading in full.And how true that last line is, especially the part where they admit to not wanting to rush to judgment on themselves. Tomorrow marks the two-month anniversary of this rather deceptive post, which also happens to be the last official word from Franklin Foer, Jason Zengerle, and the other editors and reporters of The New Republic intimately tied to what one media critic has already labeled as one of the top 101 incidents of media dishonesty. It was clearly established that as an administrative action, that Beauchamp's statements were not legally releasable by the Army to the public. In short, to give his statements to the media without his permission would be illegal, something that TNR knew, or should have known, prior to accusing the Army of being deceptive. That said, Beauchamp himself could have released these documents to the public, including the media, as soon as the investigation was over if he so desired back in August. He has not apparently seen fit to do so. Beauchamp was free to speak to the media as early as August 6, four days before The New Republic said that they could still not contact him. On September 10, Pajamas Media published my exclusive interview with Major John Cross, who led the official U.S. Army investigation into the allegations made in "Shock Troops" and found that not a single soldier would corroborate any of Beauchamp's claims. After re-reading the August 10 statement by the editors of The New Republic, I contacted Major Kirk Luedeke, PAO for Forward Operating Base Falcon where Beauchamp is stationed, and asked him several questions in hopes of updating the story thus far. The answers seem to indicate that Franklin Foer, Jason Zengerle and the editors of The New Republic have indeed been pursuing their incestuous relationship with Scott Beauchamp further; they've just refused thus far to publish any of the answers they've obtained, for reasons yet unknown. The interview discussed comments made in the August 10 TNR article cited above, and asked about developments since :
For several weeks now, questions have been raised about Scott Beauchamp's Baghdad Diarist "Shock Troops." While many of these questions have been formulated by people with ideological agendas, we recognize that there are legitimate concerns about journalistic accuracy. We at THE NEW REPUBLIC take these concerns extremely seriously. This is why we have sought to re-report the story, in the process speaking with five soldiers in Beauchamp's company who substantiate the events described in Beauchamp's essay. Indeed, we continue to investigate the anecdotes recounted in the Baghdad Diarist. Unfortunately, our efforts have been severely hampered by the U.S. Army. Although the Army says it has investigated Beauchamp's article and has found it to be false, it has refused our--and others'--requests to share any information or evidence from its investigation. What's more, the Army has rejected our requests to speak to Beauchamp himself, on the grounds that it wants "to protect his privacy." At the same time the military has stonewalled our efforts to get to the truth, it has leaked damaging information about Beauchamp to conservative bloggers. Earlier this week, The Weekly Standard's Michael Goldfarb published a report, based on a single anonymous "military source close to the investigation," entitled "Beauchamp Recants, " claiming that Beauchamp "signed a sworn statement admitting that all three articles he published in the New Republic were exaggerations and falsehoods--fabrications containing only 'a smidgen of truth,' in the words of our source. " Here's what we know: On July 26, Beauchamp told us that he signed several statements under what he described as pressure from the Army. He told us that these statements did not contradict his articles. Moreover, on the same day he signed these statements for the Army, he gave us a statement standing behind his articles, which we published at tnr.com. Goldfarb has written, "It's pretty clear the New Republic is standing by a story that even the author does not stand by. " In fact, it is our understanding that Beauchamp continues to stand by his stories and insists that he has not recanted them. The Army, meanwhile, has refused our requests to see copies of the statements it obtained from Beauchamp--or even to publicly acknowledge that they exist. Scott Beauchamp is currently a 23-year-old soldier in Iraq who, for the past 15 days, has been prevented by the military from communicating with the outside world, aside from three brief and closely monitored phone calls to family members. Our investigation has not thus far uncovered factual evidence (aside from one key detail) to discount his personal dispatches. And we cannot simply dismiss the corroborating accounts of the five soldiers with whom we spoke. (You can read our findings here.) Part of our integrity as journalists includes standing by a writer who has been accused of wrongdoing and who is not able to defend himself. But we also want to reassure our readers that our obligations to our writer would never trump our commitment to the truth. We once again invite the Army to make public Beauchamp's statements and the details of its investigation--and we ask the Army to let us (or any other media outlet, for that matter) speak to Beauchamp. Unless and until these things happen, we cannot fairly assess any of these reports about Beauchamp--and therefore have no reason to change our own assessment of Beauchamp's work. If the truth ends up reflecting poorly on our judgment, we will accept responsibility for that. But we also refuse to rush to judgment on our writer or ourselves.
TNR interviewed Scott Thomas Beauchamp over a month ago. TNR interviewed investigating officer Major John Cross after I interviewed him for Pajamas Media roughly a week later. At this stage of the game, one must wonder how much longer Franklin Foer, Jason Zengerle, and the other TNR editors involved in this farcical investigation can continue to hide the obvious fact that this was a series of stories that has not been corroborated, are partially or entirely fictional in nature, and poorly (or never) fact-checked, probably because of the author's relationship with a TNR staffer that he later married. One must begin to wonder just how ethical Editor-In-Chief Martin Peretz and Executive Editor J. Peter Scoblic are in not reacting to the obvious facts that key elements of the stories written by Scott Beauchamp were not fact checked, and that Franklin Foer and Jason Zengerle are running what appears to be a purposefully deceptive investigation to cover up the lack of fact-checking prior to publication, while apparently lying to readers, experts, critics, and perhaps even their own employers at TNR and CanWest Mediaworks. I'd love to know what Scott Thomas and Major Cross had to say to TNR, but The New Republic seems content to continue to answer questions about their credibility and ethics with silence.
Q: At that time [August 10], the editors of TNR claimed that there were "five soldiers in Beauchamp's company who substantiate the events described in Beauchamp's essay." Have the editors of TNR made any requests to interview soldiers in Beauchamp' s unit, identified of them, or made any attempts to find out about their credibility? A: Other than requesting and receiving interviews with Pvt. Scott Beauchamp and Maj. John Cross in September, TNR has not asked to speak to any additional Soldiers in the 1-18th Infantry Battalion through the 4th brigade public affairs channels. Q: At that time, the editors of TNR claimed that, "the Army says it has investigated Beauchamp's article and has found it to be false, it has refused our--and others'--requests to share any information or evidence from its investigation." At the time those statements were made by TNR's editors on August 10, were they factually accurate? Since that time, have the editors of The New Republic spoken with anyone who would have, "information or evidence from its investigation, " such as Major Cross, the investigating officer I interviewed a month ago on September 10? A: 4th brigade public affairs Soldiers were present for separate interviews conducted between TNR and Pvt. Beauchamp and Maj. Cross. On Aug. 10, the Army was still in the process conducting an investigation into the possible violation of Operational Security by Pvt. Beauchamp, and therefore, he was not at liberty to conduct interviews pending the outcome of the active investigation. He was, however, able to communicate with his family during that time. The interviews with Beauchamp and Maj. Cross occurred in the first two weeks of September, and to my knowledge, are the only ones conducted through official channels between TNR and any member of the Vanguard Battalion.
Q: TNR also claimed that, "the Army has rejected our requests to speak to Beauchamp himself, on the grounds that it wants 'to protect his privacy.'" At the time those statements were made by TNR's editors on August 10, were they factually accurate? To your knowledge, have the editors of The New Republic spoken with Scott Thomas Beauchamp since August 10, and if so, when? Does Scott Beauchamp currently have the capability to speak to The New Republic if he so desires, and release all documentation relating to the investigation if he so desires? A: The statements made by TNR on Aug. 10 about Beauchamp's availability were accurate- given the investigation's status, he was not authorized to conduct interviews with media outlets. However, as soon as the investigation concluded in mid-August, he was free to speak openly if he so desired. He rejected interview requests from Confederate Yankee and the Weekly Standard, but did in fact speak to TNR on the 7th of September, while Maj. John Cross conducted a separate interview with TNR roughly one week later. Pvt. Beauchamp also canceled scheduled interviews with Newsweek and the Washington Post after speaking to TNR.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at 12:11 PM | Comments (61) | Add Comment | Trackbacks (Suck)
Posted by: MTT at October 09, 2007 12:31 PM (1xjmZ)
Posted by: megapotamus at October 09, 2007 12:46 PM (LF+qW)
The Leftists care so much about our troops that they want to bring them home. The best way to accomplish that is to convince the American people that our soldiers are sadistic monsters that we can't in good conscience unleash on an innocent world.
It's sooo thoughtful and caring of the Leftists to want to bring our troops home, especially considering they've never even met a soldier! Leftists are such compassionate people.
Posted by: Iron Soldier at October 09, 2007 12:49 PM (zXLMP)
Posted by: Armed Liberal at October 09, 2007 01:04 PM (raW6T)
*shrug* like I written before. Beauchamp & TNR are going to keep quiet on this until Beauchamp is finally out of the Army then they'll try a full court press on the basis that Beauchamp's BS routine was true, but suppressed under pressure by the Army.
Posted by: memomachine at October 09, 2007 01:50 PM (3pvQO)
Why TNR is dragging this out is beyond me. If it is a dare to call the media out on this then I guess they win the game. The mainstream press shows no interest in this story at all.
Thanks for being the fact-checker on this. It means a great deal to me and many others who cannot trust the MSM anymore - and as we can see with very good reason.
Posted by: David G. at October 09, 2007 01:51 PM (1h7R0)
Posted by: Robbins Mitchell at October 09, 2007 01:57 PM (nWL/0)
Posted by: Dan Irving at October 09, 2007 03:09 PM (zw8QA)
Posted by: Dan Irving at October 09, 2007 03:10 PM (zw8QA)
Until I'm proven guilty,
Deny everything ... deny everything,
I'm being framed,
It's all a set-up,
Deny everything ... deny everything
- Circle Jerks
Posted by: submandave at October 09, 2007 04:27 PM (lLS3Y)
Posted by: Banjo at October 09, 2007 05:58 PM (1DQ52)
Why don't you let this story die a natural death?
'Cause there's nothing natural about this story.
The latest revelation is so shocking but alas, not surprising, that if those with "idelogical agendas" had been the ones to publish and then suppress stories such as these, MSNBC, the NY Times, et al would be all over this story all of the time.
Remember Joseph Charles Wilson IV?
How about Scooter?
The absolute silence about this charade is deafening and almost as intense as the hypocrisy and cognitive dissonance that it creates for those who believe in accountability and integrity of a free press.
Nope.
Not time to move on, Banjo.
Sorry.
Just sayin'.
Posted by: MTT at October 09, 2007 06:31 PM (1xjmZ)
Perhaps you can countenance letting them get away with that, but I--and apparently CY--cannot.
Posted by: C-C-G at October 09, 2007 07:45 PM (ufhAS)
Posted by: iconoclast at October 09, 2007 11:18 PM (1obL1)
Except that now there are blogs.
Come on guys. The 70s are over. 30 years over.
The world has moved on.
Posted by: M. Simon at October 10, 2007 02:25 AM (/DjYe)
Posted by: John Ryan at October 11, 2007 08:00 PM (TcoRJ)
I just looked at Laughing Wolf's post archive at BlackFive and found nothing of the sort there.
Here is what has been posted from Iraq by LW regarding Scott B.: (blockquote isn't previewing right so I will do it this way)
---------
It is true that I am out with the 1/18 and am at the COP where Scott was/is stationed. I haven't seen him, and to be very frank, he has been peripheral to this long before I came over. He was the spark and Paul the catalyst for my coming over here.
Was there a grain of truth around some of Scott's postings? Yes. In talking with various sergeants and others, there were some bones found. Some were apparently cow bones, and what may be/is a gravesite (not mass) was not disturbed once it was found. The people who control/own this area were not aware of any grave here, so the First Sergeant decided just to leave it be in an abundance of caution. There are a number of feral dogs here, and some have been indeed been shot. If an obviously sick dog, foaming at the mouth, is agressive, then it should be shot. So should anything that poses a threat to the troops.
From what I am seeing and otherwise finding out, there are a lot of feral dogs around here and in Iraq in general. It also appears that distemper, rabies, and a number of other diseases are a problem with wild animals including feral dogs, and it is not unusual to see obviously sick animals, and those that have died from various diseases.
Yet, these are largely side issues. There was concern with some that I was coming to do a hatchet job on Scott, but that isn't why I came. I came to report on the reality of day-to-day life here, for Scott has been irrelevant to that story and the larger stories for some time now. As for what happens to him within the Army, what I do know is that he is under a first sergeant who, according to quite a few people, has a reputation for taking problems and making them good.
To be honest, were I to see Scott I would have to thank him, for without what he did, I wouldn't be here. The same is true of Paul, for without his mistaken posting, my challenge to him to come out and report the reality would never have been issued or accepted. Right now, I also have to thank Paul, because by not showing up he has given me some very good exclusives.
---------
Nothing on Laughing Wolf's own personal blog about Beauchamp at all, that I could find.
Please, feel free to prove me wrong by posting a link to the precise BlackFive post where LW makes that statement. If they've removed it (which I doubt), Google should have it in their cache... CY can tell ya all about finding things in Google's cache.
But, I suspect that you're as big a liar as Beauchamp, and will scurry into your dark hole just as he has.
Posted by: C-C-G at October 11, 2007 08:19 PM (ufhAS)
It was a good conversation, and I enjoyed meeting him. I had heard a lot of good things about him as a soldier from the people who know him, and the leaders above him
Posted by: davidp at October 11, 2007 09:16 PM (ihAc/)
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at October 11, 2007 09:21 PM (HcgFD)
Well, that explains why it wasn't where I looked.
I hereby publicly admit my error and beg forgiveness.
Posted by: C-C-G at October 11, 2007 09:33 PM (ufhAS)
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Posted by: Watermanev at October 17, 2007 06:59 AM (Bow2a)
Your Lyin' Eyes
From Mike Yon this morning, via email:
The NEWSDAY report he casts doubt on paints a far different story:
Bob, Basra is not in chaos. In fact, crime and violence are way down and there has not been a British combat death in over a month. The report below is false.
The article continues, of course, but is it worth reading? Who are you going to believe... the reporter with th Washington byline, or the embed on the ground in Iraq?
British pullout in Iraq leaves Basra in chaos
BY TIMOTHY M. PHELPS.timothy.phelps@newsday.com; This story was supplemented with wire reports.
October 9, 2007 WASHINGTON - The British troop pullout from Iraq announced yesterday leaves Basra, Iraq's second largest and most strategically important city, in near total chaos both politically and militarily. It comes at a time when at least four Shia militias are fighting over the city, which is surrounded by most of the nation's tremendous oil reserves and provides Iraq's only gateway to the sea. Equally vital for U.S. strategists, the city also controls the southern portion of the road from Kuwait to Baghdad, along which mostly all U.S. supplies are brought in...
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at 06:40 AM | Comments (62) | Add Comment | Trackbacks (Suck)
Posted by: Rey at October 09, 2007 07:46 AM (4X3wl)
Posted by: Rey at October 09, 2007 07:47 AM (4X3wl)
Posted by: Jarhead68 at October 09, 2007 09:40 AM (XLv2M)
Mike has been in Basra for a couple of weeks now.
If Tim Phelps at Newsday had bothered to speak to Con Conglin at the Telegraph UK, he'd have known this:
"In the past few weeks there has been a tangible improvement in the security there, particularly since British troops vacated their last outpost in Basra's city centre at the end of August. Crime in Basra is down 70 per cent, and rocket and mortar attacks against British forces – which were running at more than 90 a day in the summer – have been reduced almost to zero – as Mr Brown experienced for himself this week."
(The Tide Is Turning In Basra, Oct 6, 2007)
Tim Phelps & Newsday clearly have NO journalistic integrity--- and/or they work as mouthpieces for terrorist organizations. Strangely this story reads too much like most of the crap I read in some of the Arabic media.
Posted by: Tara at October 09, 2007 10:40 AM (Dqxeq)
Posted by: madmatt at October 09, 2007 02:16 PM (J8hqn)
Or is it chaotic like newsday says and the brits did do a poor job? Who is mistaken???
Posted by: jugger at October 09, 2007 02:19 PM (swlHS)
Yon needs some investigation on him!
Posted by: jugger at October 09, 2007 02:23 PM (swlHS)
If security is tangibly improved by leaving, then perhaps the U.S. should follow the Brit's lead and go home.
Posted by: Reluctant Republican at October 09, 2007 02:54 PM (gyNYk)
Posted by: jay k at October 09, 2007 02:55 PM (yu9pS)
Anyone ever bother to think about something called RAMADAN?!
2007 1428 13 September 12 October
Get ready for the uptick in violence to begin...oh....Saturday.
Fools.
Posted by: KC at October 09, 2007 03:18 PM (ZOnuf)
...Maybe you guys are being sarcastic. If so, jokes on me.
http://michaelyon-online.com/
Posted by: Grumpy at October 09, 2007 03:27 PM (keHE7)
Mad Matt and jugger found us out!
Yon's a complete fraud and nobody, including Bruce Willis, has ever heard of him, and he never takes pictures or writes things.
/sarc
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at October 09, 2007 03:27 PM (WwtVa)
Can no one see a bit of cause and effect to this report; invading force pulls out of city and violence drops 70%... guess that instead of attacking the British forces the terrorist are busy packing their bags in preparation to “follow them home.”
It should be abundantly obvious to all that an “eye for an eye” approach in the Middle East is a loser, so why don’t we take a page from Ron Reagan and try a different tact against a seemingly monolithic threat.
Posted by: ibfamous at October 09, 2007 03:38 PM (ihUEC)
Posted by: Reluctant Republican at October 9, 2007 02:54 PM
I think you got it the wrong way round. Security improves, then we leave. Like the US marines have done in al-Anbar following the collapse of the insurgency in that province.
Posted by: Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr at October 09, 2007 03:41 PM (gkobM)
basra and the south are largly dominated by iran.
Didn't Maliki just release a statement saying that Iran was no longer a force in Iraq? Or am I misremembering?
Posted by: nunaim at October 09, 2007 03:44 PM (22/Qe)
Posted by: Brennan at October 09, 2007 04:05 PM (qzcNU)
Pay no attention to the 15 Basra-area women tortured and murdered each month, the Basra police chief is taking care of that...
http://tinyurl.com/2ma3fd
Posted by: Miss Led at October 09, 2007 04:17 PM (Egd50)
if al anbar is such a great story why is it that the administration turned down all offers of cooperation with tribal leaders until recently, when leading up to the patreaus report, they were desperate for signs of success? and why is it that although al anbar actually is an endorsment of the biden plan the administration continues to reject that plan? the biden plan has been kicking around for years...if the white house had adopted it way back then maybe we would be on our way out of iraq. is it because it's a democrat's plan and the white house is more interested in politics than success? or is it because the administration is more interested in staying in iraq indefinitely? or is it because the real goal is iran?
Posted by: jay k. at October 09, 2007 04:29 PM (yu9pS)
Posted by: Capitalist Infidel at October 09, 2007 04:44 PM (Lgw9b)
Posted by: Tincan Sailor at October 09, 2007 07:24 PM (L4HGI)
Posted by: C-C-G at October 09, 2007 07:50 PM (ufhAS)
Hmmmmm according to the piece that MissLed linked...15 women have been killed EVERY month!
Interesting because LA times in a piece titled " Iraqis Divided by Constitutions Treatment of Women" quotes the same General as saying 15 women in the LAST month There is a big difference between the two statements!
By the way --- trust the LA times to create a headline thats misleading --- the issue of concern is ONE Article in the Constitution ---Article 41!
And PS -- the BRITS ARE STILL IN BASRA!! Of the four southern provinces placed under the protection of British forces, three have been handed over to local control, while the fourth, Basra, should be handed over by the end of the year.
“I will lead a campaign to protect the woman’s rights in Basra, where she exposes to different kinds of repression and a new terrorism,” the general told reporters.
Good for him!!! He wants to get rid of gang violence - sounds like he could be the mayor or police chief of any major city in the US or Canada!!
When we turned over parts of southern Iraq to the Iraqi forces --- this is what we wanted them to do!! Govern themselves and provide their own people with security - keep law and order. And they are - so what the hell is every freaking liberal and apparently even some conservatives ragging on about?? In order for us to stand down ...they need to stand up! GOOD FOR THEM FOR DOING SO!!!
No one said peace, security, tranquility, law and order would suddenly materialize, and that all signs of violence would disappear.
Go figure - Basra is having some of the same problems we all face in big city America...GANG VIOLENCE!
We are a democracy that is dealing with violence: Gang violence: Asian gangs, Crips vs Bloods; AND racial violence is still prevalent; AND we have rapes and violent deaths occurring on daily basis, yet only a fool would leave a pithy comment "looks like chaos to me" about America after reading about the many violent killings that snuffed out young lives in the US over the past week...yet won't think twice about making the same comment when it comes to quoting out of context an incident of religious violence in Iraq.
Should we assume that every time someone is killed violently in the US that we have failed as a democracy? That the city, the state,the entire country is in 'chaos'???
It is sad that 15 women were killed by religious gangs in Basra----but something very important is being overlooked!
Hanaa Edwar, heads the Iraqi Amal Assn., a human rights group. Her Association (her human rights group) along with legal scholars are opposing Article 41 in the Iraqi constitution.
Thats awesome! Iraq's fledgling democracy is only four years old -- yet they have women in gov't and womens right activists. America saw neither for many many decades after her constitution was written and ratified!!
This is DEMOCRACY at work in Iraq - debate is going on - and yes sadly,sometimes religious street gangs manage to use violence to secure power for themselves, to usurp existing power and as a form of protest about that which they disagree with! But this time, they have a local army willing to stand up to religious extremism!
The problem of religious violence and extremism is an enduring one throughout the Middle East. It won't disappear tomorrow or in ten years... there are many in Iraq that cannot ignore the fact that religion is part of their existence. And so there is debate about Article 61!
The fact that there IS debate going on in Iraq to resolve a certain Article in the constitution that some women feel may leave all women vulnerable to a extreme religious interpretation of the Koran is exciting and it should resonate as a clear sign that Iraq IS succeeding despite the gang deaths.
And liberals in America especially women should be applauding this rather than insisting on wearing headscarves to meet with Syrian Presidents and braying endlessly about 'failures and quagmires' in Iraq!!
Jay --- We left behind a small force in Germany,Japan and South Korea indefinitely - people objected - yet the benefits to the world have far outweighed whatever fears they may have had.
Posted by: Tara at October 09, 2007 09:27 PM (SfNIo)
That's not what Conglin says. He said:
"In the past few weeks there has been a tangible improvement in the security there, particularly since British troops vacated their last outpost in Basra's city centre at the end of August."
The cause and effect is very clear in that sentence.
So, which way is it? Is Phelps wrong, security being all the better for the Brits backing out, or is Phelps right, Basra being in near chaos? You can only have it one way, people.
Posted by: Reluctant Republican at October 09, 2007 10:05 PM (zZTFX)
Perhaps Yon is the one that is right. His statement, "there has not been a British combat death in over a month" would seem to indicate that there are still British troops there, else his statement would be on a par with saying there have been no people trampled by musk oxen in New York City in the last month.
Of course, that throws your theory that removing troops = peace right out the window, so of course you wouldn't even consider that, would you?
Posted by: C-C-G at October 09, 2007 10:40 PM (ufhAS)
On September 3 the British forces pulled out of their main city base and are now located by the airport. UK fatalities in the province fell from eight in July to five in August to only two in September.
British troops in the province have limited their combat missions to protecting the airport base and its supply lines, protecting international borders, and keeping a force on standby to intervene in case of emergency.
Source: http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/19dd44f8-75af-11dc-b7cb-0000779fd2ac.html
They have withdrawn from the city, and there are significantly fewer combat deaths among the British soldiers. Coincidence? Not likely.
The real question should be: are things better or worse for the Iraqis in Basra? And does that make Phelps right, or wrong?
Posted by: Reluctant Republican at October 10, 2007 12:22 AM (zZTFX)
Face it, it is impossible to say with certainty that the withdrawal of troops led to peace. There are simply too many variables.
Posted by: C-C-G at October 10, 2007 12:27 AM (ufhAS)
Reaching out to tribal leaders has been ongoing since at least the pacification of Falluja in 04. Problem was the Baathists and nationalists were not interested. However, several years of having their arses handed to them by the Marines, plus AQs increasingly dictatorial nature, made them realize they had better accept the Government of Iraq/US offers to come in from the cold
Posted by: Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrr at October 10, 2007 12:36 AM (2wI6h)
Posted by: Karl at October 10, 2007 12:36 AM (WJ2TD)
And if you define "peace" in terms of a lack of coalition troop deaths, then it should be pretty obvious by now that pulling out of country is the only way it could possibly ever be achieved.
Speaking for myself, I don't, and I don't. I can't speak for the other braniacs here.
Posted by: Reluctant Republican at October 10, 2007 12:49 AM (zZTFX)
Posted by: M. Simon at October 10, 2007 02:35 AM (/DjYe)
Do you believe that pulling out would continue that trend, or would it reverse it?
Posted by: C-C-G at October 10, 2007 09:51 AM (ufhAS)
m. simon...traditionally politicians make policy...generals execute that policy.
and lastly grrrr...the us was reaching out to tribal leaders, in this case the shia. now they are reaching out to the sunnis in anbar, who have pushed out all the shia. there is a good deal of question whether they are pushing out aqi, or are simply assimilating them under a different "banner". at any rate we have effectively now funded and armed both sides of the civil war. whether it is actually good news or not, in anbar a soft partition has taken place...which is what biden has been promoting for years. now the white house points to it as a model of success, and out of the other side of their mouths discount the biden-gelb plan. so does the administration not know what is happening? or are simply they playing politics? which is just a nicer version of "are they incompetent or simply bald-faced liars"?
Posted by: jay k. at October 10, 2007 10:11 AM (yu9pS)
Al Queda has two stated goals. One is the elimination of western influence in the muslim world. The other is the formation of a caliphate.
Clearly, leaving Iraq would reduce the violence on the former count. I don't see violence as helpful to their latter goal.
My guess is that when we pull out, AQ does too. That's not to say that Iraq becomes a playground, because the struggle among the various sects will continue. Al Queda, however, is likely to become about as influential in the region as they were before the war, which is of course not at all.
Posted by: Reluctant Republican at October 10, 2007 11:52 AM (gyNYk)
I don't trust the media, these could have been planted by the liberal media...and hollywood actors are not to be trusted they are defeatocrats!! More proof is needed.
Posted by: jugger at October 10, 2007 03:47 PM (swlHS)
====
how can you qoute wikimedia CY?? isn't it the stalwart of liberal misinformation?? I need a link from Conservepedia. This all smells and needs some proof and investigation, someone should call Yon up and ask him about his 'past'.
Posted by: jugger at October 10, 2007 03:50 PM (swlHS)
Posted by: ibfamous at October 10, 2007 05:55 PM (ihUEC)
Posted by: daleyrocks at October 10, 2007 06:27 PM (0pZel)
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at October 10, 2007 07:39 PM (HcgFD)
You might actually try thinking through your own argument before setting fingers to keyboard.
Posted by: C-C-G at October 10, 2007 08:01 PM (ufhAS)
Posted by: C-C-G at October 10, 2007 08:04 PM (ufhAS)
First, there were NEVER many shia in al-Anbar. Second, the US was reaching out to sunnis in Iraq from the time of the liberation of Falluja from al-Qaida. These were SUNNI tribal leaders in Al-Anbar. Only now after major losses in a grinding war of attrition have they agreed to work with the coalition, they have no other option. Even Saddam never controled al-Anbar making this all the more remarkable.
.....there is a good deal of question whether they are pushing out aqi, or are simply assimilating them under a different "banner".....
There is very little doubt that AQ is being driven out by a distinct enemy, the Sunni tribes who should have been there natural allies, it is a major deeat for Osamas organization.
... at any rate we have effectively now funded and armed both sides of the civil war. whether it is actually good news or not, in anbar a soft partition has taken place...which is what biden has been promoting for years.
Again, your are totally wrong, al-Anbar was allways almost 100%. Joe biden and the democrats idiots in congress who want soft partition are profoundly stupid given that the vast majority of Iraqis do not want it (and that now has some significance since they are now in a democracy.
Posted by: Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr at October 11, 2007 12:47 AM (2wI6h)
We are spending several American lives and roughly 2 billion dollars a week, supposedly to bring the gift of self-determination to the Iraqi people. Not that they've figured out to do with this power yet, but it's actually more likely now than ever that Iraq is amenable to joining a caliphate.
The best defense against a caliphate in that region, if you're seriously afraid of such a thing, is a secular strong-arm dictator. We found the last one of those hiding in a spider hole and hung him, remember?
And every time one of our crack security contractors opens unprovoked fire on a crowd of Iraqi innocents? Well that just brings the caliphate another several hundred purple fingers closer to becoming a reality. And as if we should care.
You do understand what a caliphate is, don't you? And of course you are aware that there are countless muslims wishing to return to a caliphate system through peaceful means?
The very idea that we should be expending blood and treasure in an attempt to deny the muslim caliphate is the strangest one yet, even stranger than the logical disconnects I originally came here to complain about.
Posted by: Reluctant Republican at October 11, 2007 12:53 AM (zZTFX)
Riiiight. Strong arm dictators in the middle East have worked out so well for us in the past.
For example, the Saudis whoes un-democratic nation gave us 9/11 (you do remember that dont you) and saddam who gave US the invasion of Kuwait and WMD almost up to and including a nuke. The only long term solution in the middle east is democracy. And for every mistake by Blackwater or UAE based Australian security firms there are dozens of rogue Mehdi civiliann killings that drive a thousand purple fingers away from Iran. This may be why the clerical structure in Najaf recently moved AWAY from the teachings of the Iranian ayatollahs.
Posted by: Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrr at October 11, 2007 01:20 AM (2wI6h)
Turkey has not fallen to the caliphate, and is not ruled by a strong-arm dictator. Therefore, your theory is disproven.
But, I am sure that you can come up with another, equally easily disproven. You're obviously flailing about, trying everything you can think of to proclaim the war in Iraq a failure, even if a few moments' thought would prove your theories nonsense.
By the way, your name is fooling no one. You are not a Republican, reluctant or otherwise.
Posted by: C-C-G at October 11, 2007 08:23 PM (ufhAS)
October 08, 2007
Retard Released From Jail
Don't shoot the messenger for the choice of words, guys...
I would have simply called him "reality-based," whereas his prosecution seemed retarded.Posted by: Confederate Yankee at 07:20 PM | Comments (17) | Add Comment | Trackbacks (Suck)
Jebus - sometimes my home state really makes me cringe.
Posted by: Dan Irving at October 09, 2007 09:17 AM (zw8QA)
Redefining "One"
The U.K. Telegraph, not exactly the voice of reason or accuracy when it comes hand-wringing hype of the possibility of war between the United States and Iran, has an amusingly self-contradictory post today by Tim Shipman that claims that U.S. Secretary of Defense Robert Gates is "The man who stands between US and new war."
The thrust of the headline and the urderlying premise drummed up by the article is that Gates, and Gates alone, is the sole voice of sanity keeping the U.S. from a bombing campaign of Iran. Unfortunately, the second half of the editorial (I hope this isn't supposed to be hard news) seems to exist merely to debunk that underlying premise:The fact that the Army's Chief of Staff Casey, D-CIA Hayden, head of CENTCOM Admiral Fallon, and National Director of Intelligence McConnell have joined Secretary of State Rice and Secretary of Defense Gates in advocating that we try other means prior to war, apparently didn't register with Shipman, even as he wrote their names. A great newspaper, the Independent. They never miss a thing.
Officials say Mr Gates's strategy bore fruit when Admiral William Fallon, the head of US Central Command, charged with devising war plans for Iran, said last month that the "constant drumbeat of war" was not helpful. He was followed by General George Casey, the army's new chief of staff, who requested an audience with the House of Representatives armed services committee to warn that his branch of the military had been stretched so thin by the Iraq war that it was not prepared for yet another conflict. Gen Casey told Congress the army was "out of balance" and added: "The demand for our forces exceeds the sustainable supply. We are consumed with meeting the demands of the current fight, and are unable to provide ready forces as rapidly as necessary for other potential contingencies." Mr Gates has forged an alliance with Mike McConnell, the national director of intelligence, and Michael Hayden, the head of the Central Intelligence Agency, to ensure that Mr Cheney's office is not the dominant conduit of information and planning on Iran to Mr Bush.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at 03:31 PM | Comments (20) | Add Comment | Trackbacks (Suck)
A great newspaper, the Independent. They never miss a thing Huh, I thought it was the conservative Daily Telegraph that we were talking about. You know, the one your Republican brethren have no trouble believing when its the only source for Syrian nuke stories.
Regards, C
PS The Torygraph article actually says "the single person in the US government who has any standing with the White House fighting it." (Emphasis Mine) That isn't quite the statement you've said it is.
Posted by: Cernig at October 08, 2007 05:23 PM (cKwQY)
Amazing. Upon what evidence do you base that claim, please?
Posted by: C-C-G at October 08, 2007 08:37 PM (TBuKI)
Posted by: davod at October 09, 2007 12:38 PM (llh3A)
Posted by: C-C-G at October 09, 2007 07:55 PM (ufhAS)
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