Confederate Yankee
October 13, 2006
Coroner in Lloyd Inquest Fails to Prove His Charge
I'd like to know how this British Assistant Deputy coroner can justify this conclusion:
A coroner ruled on Friday that a British journalist who died in Iraq at the start of the war was unlawfully killed by American forces.
Lloyd, a correspondent with the British TV network ITN , was killed outside Basra in southern Iraq in March 2003.
Oxfordshire Assistant Deputy Coroner Andrew Walker said he'll be writing the director of public prosecutions to seek to bring the perpetrators to justice.
"Terry Lloyd died following a gunshot wound to the head. The evidence this bullet was fired by the Americans is overwhelming," Walker said.
Lebanese interpreter Hussein Osman also was killed in the ITN crew, and cameraman Fred Nerac remains missing. ITN cameraman Daniel Demoustier survived.
Lloyd -- who was aged 50 -- was shot in the back during U.S. and Iraqi crossfire and was apparently shot by U.S. forces when he was taken away in a minibus for treatment.
"There is no doubt that the minibus presented no threat to the American forces. There is no doubt it was an unlawful act of fire upon the minibus," Walker said.
It is tragic when any civilian is killed in combat, but the simple fact that the bullet that killed Mr. Lloyd was fired by an American unit does not establish that:
- that the vehicle was intentionally fired upon;
- that the vehicle could be considered "no threat" if it was targeted.
Assistant Deputy Coroner Walker is attempting to make the claim that Marine tanks were able to identify this as a civilian vehicle, and that despite that, they decided to willfully fire upon it. He does not support his charge.
It is tragic that in this instance that the vehicle in this instance was perhaps a civilian vehicle attempting to provide care for a wounded journalist, but there is no evidence presented by Coroner Walker to the public that supports his charge that the vehicle carrying Lloyd was specifically targeted. Further, Walker does not establish the fact much less that it was knowingly targeted as a noncombatant, non-threat vehicle. For that matter, the inquiry seems to gloss over
previous reports that the "civilian" van was also carrying Iraqi soldiers.
Much more detail about the incident is provided in a
TimesOnline article which gives a general picture of the event, but it hardly provides enough detail to warrant Walker's statement that Terry Lloyd was "unlawfully killed." There is no released evidence supporting that the van was targeted, and sufficient reason to suspect that the fire that killed Lloyd were fired at Iraqi soldiers engaged with U.S. forces at the time.
I feel sorrow for the Lloyd family, but this inquest, at least what has been released thus far, does not support the coroner's conclusion. Terry Lloyd's death was tragic, but nothing released thus far supports a charge of murder.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
10:36 AM
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Posted by: Anonymous for now at October 13, 2006 01:14 PM (RMHg5)
Posted by: monkyboy at October 13, 2006 01:21 PM (unUeA)
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It's not a conviction or anything, the coroner's opinion is just that. It's up to the prosecutors to examine his conclusions before deciding whether or not to bring it to trial.
I agree that there is not enough here yet to support a charge of murder, but I am troubled that apparently the DoD is holding some evidence back. Film of the incident has been edited, including the crucial moment when he received the fatal bullet. And witnesses supplied statements but were not subject to questioning or cross examination.
If the authorities think there is enough to proceed, maybe there is enough as yet unreleased evidence to support the charge that will come out in a full trial.
Posted by: aplomb at October 13, 2006 01:39 PM (Iva5Y)
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A reporter who has an ego so large he would put himself on a battle field and then in a cross fire for a story is sure to die of stupidity. Feel sorry for his family, but be amazed that an educated person could be so stupid. War is hell and people die.
Posted by: Scrapiron at October 13, 2006 08:55 PM (fEnUg)
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October 12, 2006
Questionable Methods, Questionable Results
It seems that the British Lancet has a certain problematic pattern of behavior:
From
ABC News last year:
Indian experts say a new study which found that some 10 million female foetuses may have been aborted in the country in the past 20 years was sensationalist and inaccurate.
The study, published online by British medical journal The Lancet, says the practice of selective abortion is due to a traditional preference for boys in India.
"It is a sensational piece of work. We are very, very concerned about this study," activist Sabu George said, who has been campaigning against the practice of foeticide for more than two decades.
"An unreasonable estimate will undermine the issue," he said.
Exaggerated? An unreasonable estimate in the
Lancet? Shocking.
Worried about the hype generated about "Frankenfood?" If you want to guess where it came from, thank this
New York Times article in 1999:
a prestigious medical journal is publishing a study suggesting that genetically modified food may be harmful, even though the research has been widely criticized by scientists and was found wanting by some of the journal's own referees.
The Lancet, a journal based in England, said had it decided to publish the study in part to spur debate and to avoid being accused of suppressing information on a controversial subject.
The study is also likely to be seized upon by opponents of such food in the United States, where consumers have until recently expressed little concern about the genetically altered corn and soybeans that have swept quietly into their diets.
Charles Margulis of the Washington office of Greenpeace was quoted as saying, "I think it gives it a certain scientific credibility. It's going to increase concern here in the United States." But the decision to publish the study is itself generating debate: some scientists say the Lancet has lowered its standards and subverted the peer review process.
Subverting peer review and lowering its standards of accuracy? Surely, this is not the
Lancet we're talking about.
Speaking of questionable accuracy and low standards, do you remember the 1998 study linking the common childhood MMR (measels,/mumps/rubella)vaccine to autism? It
didn't do too well.
Ten of the original 13 authors of a controversial 1998 medical report which implied a link between autism and the combined MMR vaccine for measles, mumps, and rubella, have retracted the paper's interpretations.
The retraction will be printed in the 6 March issue of The Lancet, which published the original paper. One author could not be reached and two others, Peter Harvey and lead author Andrew Wakefield, refused to join the retraction.
"We wish to make it clear that in this paper no causal link was established between MMR vaccine and autism as the data were insufficient," write the 10 authors in their retraction. "However, the possibility of such a link was raised and consequent events have had major implications for public health."
The original paper, which was based on parental and medical reports of just a dozen children, suggested a "possible relation" between autism, bowel disease, and MMR. The paper added it "did not prove an association".
The
Lancet rushed through a under-sampled study spearheaded by a possibly dishonest scientist. Interesting.
It seems that sometimes a desire to influence or shock public sensibilities seems to get the better of the
Lancet from time to time, as it did when it claimed just prior to the 2004 elections that 8,000-194,000 (but most often trumpeted as 100,000) Iraqi civilians had been killed.
Funny, how the
UN Development Program Iraq Living Conditions Survey using similar cluster survey methodology but on a far greater scale, recorded only 24,000 deaths published five months later with a 95% confidence interval of 18,000 to 29,000.
If you didn't know any better, you might just think their studies were driven by leadership more interested in exerting political influence than presenting valid science.
It's a good thing that
couldn’t be the case.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
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Any similarities between those who attack this study and Ahmadinejad's Holocaust denying are purely coincidental, I'm sure...
Posted by: monkyboy at October 12, 2006 07:49 PM (unUeA)
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It seems that sometimes a desire to influence or shock public sensibilities seems to get the better of the Lancet from time to time, as it did when it claimed just prior to the 2004 elections that 8,000-194,000 (but most often trumpeted as 100,000) Iraqi civilians had been killed.
So some journal articles in the Lancet (as in every journal) have been questioned (as is often the case in science) - and yet you seem to have failed to provide any credible criticism of either the 2004 or the 2006 articles. This is akin to creationists stating that since Piltdown Man was a fraud, evolution is bunk.
Do you have any substantive criticisms of eithe r the 2004 or 2006 study?
Funny, how the UN Development Program Iraq Living Conditions Survey using similar cluster survey methodology but on a far greater scale, recorded only 24,000 deaths published five months later with a 95% confidence interval of 18,000 to 29,000.
Funny that that's what you claim it states, but the link you give doesn't give a working copy of the survey.
Fortunately, there's a copy here.
And, lo, if we take a look on p. 54, we can see that (a) the ILCS talks about a restricted definition of "war-related deaths", whereas the Lancet study talks about "excess deaths", and that the ILCS study states that it has underestimated deaths by not including households where all members were lost.
You also seem to have conveniently forgotten to mention that the ILCS study attempts to provide another estimate of mortality by making the interesting point that 13% of Iraqis report dead fathers as compared to Jordan's figure of 8%. Let's see - 5%, divided by 2 as they're talking about males... Why, that seems remarkably in line with the Lancet's estimate of 2.5% of the population dead due to the invasion and war, doesn't it?
Why is it, do you suppose, that you didn't provide a working link to the report when you failed to quote from it properly?
Posted by: Phoenician in a time of Romans at October 12, 2006 09:40 PM (iYlrE)
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I think that Al-Jazeera isn't showing video of tens of thousands of fresh graves is prima facie evidence they simply don't exist.
Posted by: Purple Avenger at October 12, 2006 10:26 PM (uLMbH)
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CY - Richard Nadler at NRO has a good piece that corresponds with your position.
The Hopkins researchers chose their “base-line” for pre-invasion Iraq carefully: January 2002 through March 2003. They chose a period of time in which Baathist violence against the Kurds was restrained by a U.S.-imposed no-fly zone in the north; a period of time after the extermination of hundreds of thousands of Shia and Marsh Arabs in the south.
Burnham and associates carved out a brief period of enforced peace within a 25-year regime singularly dedicated to war and internal slaughter. They called it a “baseline,” and they compared that baseline against a period of war.
Basically, the bogus baseline gave them a much larger multiplier to use on postwar "data" to shape their data into the antiwar message they are trying to espouse.
I'm with you and Purple Avenger - if the number of civilian deaths were that high, with the press we have today and the Arab press, there is no way that information wouldn't have been on the news 25/8.
The underlying part of this is that we are supposed to believe that coalition (i.e. American) soldiers are more wanton killers of Iraqi civilians than Saddam Hussein ever was.
The lefties arguing for the accuracy of this report are probably still saying, "We're against the war, but we support the troops (lying, muderous, rapist, massacring puppets of Rumsfeld and Bush that they are)....
Scientists aren't God. They are human. When they skew data to support a specific political goal, they cease to be scientists and are not worthy of trust.
What's the phrase? Lies, Damned Lies, and Statistics.
Posted by: SouthernRoots at October 12, 2006 11:09 PM (jHBWL)
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I would define a credible estimate as one that starts from a valid baseline, and can be either repeated, or correlated by another similar method or process.
What, in your vastly informed view, would have been an appropriate baseline for this study? Perhaps the death rates during the 1988 Anfal campaign? Or during the Shi'a massacres of 1991? Would those baselines have satisfied you?
More importantly, I'd like to know -- again, in your vastly informed view -- on what basis you would like to claim that this study cannot be repeated or (and I don't know what you mean by this) "correlated by another similar process or method."
Your sloppy use of the passive voice here makes it sound as if others have tried (and failed) to reproduce the results of this study. If that has indeed happened, you should share your findings with the world. Meantime, though, you embarrass yourself by suggesting that cluster sampling is a "shoddy" framework for arriving at estimate like this one. It's not. Cluster sampling -- as my colleagues who actually do cluster sampling tell me -- is a highly reliable method and is used throughout the field of public health. There are reasonable and informed critiques that can be made about the methodology of any study, including this one.
Your approach -- which is shared by your fantastically well-informed commenters -- is to (a) deliberately misread the actual claims of the study; (b) duplicitously insist that the study is wrong because it contradicts the findings of a non-scientific tally by Iraq Body Count, which counts media reports of deaths directly attributable to the war; (c) yodel incoherently about the lack of press coverage, the lack of "fresh graves," or whatever else proves (by its absence) your suspicions; and now (d) insist that because The Lancet has been criticized before by someone, somewhere, the results of this study are automatically called into question.
It's no wonder that you can't fathom the statistical methods in this study. You can't even make a coherent, logical argument about the most basic facts of the case.
Posted by: d at October 13, 2006 01:23 AM (LHK5X)
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Looking over the data on the Holocaust, it seems the primary source of information comes from the Nazis themselves, not "census records, property deeds, marriage, birth and death records, etc."
Such detailed records aren't currently being kept in Iraq, so sampling would seem to be the best way to get an accurate number.
For those who doubt the Lancet study, I think you should pause and ask yourself why...
Posted by: monkyboy at October 13, 2006 04:03 AM (unUeA)
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What, in your vastly informed view, would have been an appropriate baseline for this study? Perhaps the death rates during the 1988 Anfal campaign? Or during the Shi'a massacres of 1991? Would those baselines have satisfied you?Let me have a go at this. It depends on the question you want answered. The question I personally would like answered is, how does the current death rate in Iraq compare to what would have happened if the invasion hadn't taken place? That's obviously pretty speculative. By adopting the baseline that they did, the study authors assumed that things would have stayed more or less as they were shortly before the invasion. They didn't include periods of genocide against Kurds or Shi'ites because international action had mostly brought an end to them, and there was no reason to believe they would flare up again. This seems like a sensible approach.
However, I personally think that without international intervention, Saddam Hussein's government would most likely have collapsed under its own steam and there would have been a civil war. This could well have produced a situation even worse than we're seeing now. That is the only good argument I've come up with for the invasion of Iraq, but it's not one that you hear used much, probably because of the debacle of Somalia. And because it's so speculative, it's a poor baseline to use in a scientific survey.
The reason I don't like the IBC is not just that it's an underestimate, but that it can also be accused of being an overestimate. Violent death happens in every country. Who knows how many people would have died anyway? You have to subtract the "normal" level of violent death from the IBC numbers to assess how bad the war has been for the local population. But there was no free press under Saddam Hussein, so there's no way to figure out what that baseline level should be.
The value of the Lancet article is that it answers precisely this question. It measures something completely different than the IBC does: excess deaths. It includes deaths from disease, accidents, and crime, not just organised attacks by military units, and it's free from the natural distortion produced by the press. It's therefore a far more useful piece of information for assessing the impact of the war (although the IBC is still valuable data).
It would be wonderful if a second group could replicate the survey and let us know what they find. This is, however, unlikely. Compiling this information is dangerous work; they didn't just mail out surveys, they had to physically turn up to these places. Even doing it once might be considered foolhardy.
Finally, here's an exercise for you, Bob, to demonstrate what the IBC numbers actually represent. You live in North Carolina, do I have that right? Raleigh has a population of 276,093. The death rate in the United States is 8.25 / 1,000 population / year. Therefore, in Raleigh, there should be something like 8.25 / 1000 * 276,093 / 365.25 ~= 6 deaths each day. So your exercise is the following: find the press reports from Thursday for each of those six deaths. Paid obituaries don't count, since they don't count in the IBC. Or, since 6 is a pretty low sample, make it 18 deaths from Tuesday to Thursday if you want. In either case, I bet you can't.
What does that prove? Not every death is reported in the press. Not even a large fraction of deaths are reported in the press. Death is a normal part of life, especially in Iraq, and is therefore usually not important enough to make the news. Any estimate of the number of people dying in a country which uses only press reports as its source will be a massive underestimate.
Posted by: Mat at October 13, 2006 04:40 AM (kVBtr)
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d and Mat - Show me the bodies. We're talking about dead people - lots of dead people. Unlike perceptions and feelings, dead people are something that can be "seen and touched".
Where are the pictures of massive increases in burials? Where are the Arab news stories with the photographic proof?
Did you personally and independantly recreate the findings of the study? Where's your report?
In order for us to beleive this study, one would have to believe that there has been a MASSIVE coverup (so to speak) by the new Iraqi government, the US, UK, Japan, Russia, China, Spain, France, Germany, all the other countries in the coalition, the UN, the Red Cross, US news organizations, International news organizations and news agencies that definately not friendly to the Bush administration.
Who's in charge of this coverup and how have they managed to keep the lid on it for three and a half years?
Prove to me the validity of the study by using it to verify auto deaths in America. Compare the methodology results with the official numbers reported by the government. Use a baseline of pre SUV/post SUV or some delineator of improved safety (airbags).
I have seen way too much of the politicization of science, so I am a skeptic when a "scientific" study produces results extremely higher than anyone else is reporting.
The study is a nice theoretical approach - where are the bodies and mass graves?
Posted by: SouthernRoots at October 13, 2006 09:35 AM (jHBWL)
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Show me the bodies. We're talking about dead people - lots of dead people. Unlike perceptions and feelings, dead people are something that can be "seen and touched".
Where are the pictures of massive increases in burials? Where are the Arab news stories with the photographic proof?You're applying standards that are absurd. No-one has the time or inclination to go around photographing every single dead body in Iraq. Why would you expect that they would? Some incidents, the most spectacular ones, are photographed and reported. But after reporting the thousandth random anonymous murder, no journalist needs a giant conspiracy to tell them not to bother reporting the next one. It's a waste of time.
What about the numbers for Hiroshima and Nagasaki you flung around? Do you think that someone went around photographing every single body after those incidents? Do you think that there was a morgue slapping death certificates on every single one of the 214,000 (a suspiciously round number, if you ask me)? It seems that statistical methods are fine when they back up the point you're making, but unacceptable when they don't.
Posted by: Mat at October 13, 2006 10:49 AM (2yVWt)
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I do apologise, I was sorta expecting a response from Bob. I didn't realise that that was SouthernRoots I was replying to. Please disregard the whole response if you like.
Posted by: Mat at October 13, 2006 10:59 AM (2yVWt)
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In order for us to beleive this study, one would have to believe that there has been a MASSIVE coverup (so to speak) by the new Iraqi government, the US, UK, Japan, Russia, China, Spain, France, Germany, all the other countries in the coalition, the UN, the Red Cross, US news organizations, International news organizations and news agencies that definately not friendly to the Bush administration.
No, all you have to believe in order to take this study seriously is that the mortality rate has nearly quadrupled since March 2003. There are no mass graves because the rise in mortality has been distributed across the country, and because the cases of death cannot be assigned to single factors -- like, say, the Anfal genocide or the November 2004 Fallujah massacre.
As anyone with even a rudimentary understanding of statistics could tell you, the phenomena measured by statistical data is often "invisible" within the context of everyday experience -- that's one of the reasons that statistical studies are useful. Science often produces results that run contrary to the quite un-scientific work of reporting. On the merits of the study itself, there is no compelling reason to dispute the methods or the conclusions.
Posted by: d at October 13, 2006 01:43 PM (LHK5X)
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In Your Hands
Scott Elliott wrote this very impassioned call to action for conservative voters yesterday:
Here we are enduring the ongoing saga of Foleygate, immersed in a steady stream of scandalous revelations about who and when, what and where. After news broke of former GOP Rep. Mark Foley's disgraceful acts, it was only a matter of time before the headlines would begin tolling the death knell for the GOP’s chances in November. "GOP in meltdown" was the headline recently at MSN online. "Bush approval sinks to new low" was another. Phrases like "tipping point" and "nail in the coffin" are being banged out of keyboard after keyboard across the country faster than my 8-year-old can tell you his life story.
And why shouldn't they be? After suffering through a withering summer in which their fortunes seemed to steadily decline into resignation, many Republicans feel the Foley scandal is indeed the coup de resistance for Democrats ravenous to regain the gavel of power on Capitol Hill. The undersea earth has shifted; the tsunami is on its way. And there's nothing we can do to stop the coming tidal wave from crashing down on November 7. There is no force to stand against the swelling political seas. Hey, we had a nice run; it's time to close up shop and accept the inevitable, right?
I can hear Jimmy V. turning in his grave and the editorial board at The New York Times shrieking with delight. Are we really giving up? With so much to lose, so much on the table, with America's very future hanging in the balance, surely we can't be calling it quits. If we learned anything from the last three elections, it is that participation, not polls, pundits or pooh-poohing, makes or breaks an election.
In 2000, ineffective GOP mobilization efforts and disaffected GOP voters afforded Al Gore 500,000 more votes than George W. Bush. In 2002 and 2004, a transformation of miraculous proportions took place in the Republican get-out-the-vote machine. It culminated in the GOP control of both congressional chambers and the re-election of a Republican president who received over 3 million more votes than his opponent and nearly 8 million more than any previous presidential candidate in history.
Scott, by the way, knows a thing or two about elections. His web site, called
Election Projection, was only off of getting the exact electoral vote count correct by
three in the 2004 Presidential race.
Despite all the gloom and doom from the media, his present models are calling the Senate a dead heat and predicting that the Republicans will hold onto the House by five seats, quite a far cry from the slaughter many on the left are merrily predicting.
In fact, the only way it seems that the Republicans could lose the House is if we decide not to vote. So vote already, and if you haven't registered, you need to do so quickly. Here in North Carolina, tomorrow is the last day to register to vote.
A web site geared at getting out voters called
PayAttention.org has all the details about registering and voting in your area. Please register, and use your right to vote.
If you don't, some patchouli-stinking liberal front group
might just do it for you.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
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Here in Connect-I-cut, I have the same two candidates that I had to choose from two years ago; Shays and Farrell, and neither has changed, nor have I. But vote we must, for staying away from the polls on election day sends a message that we as citizens don't care enough to make a statement at all!
Posted by: Tom TB at October 12, 2006 02:20 PM (GIL7z)
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Thank You
I think I responded to everyone who contributed funds to my "blegburst" personally, but I’d like to do so again publicly. I’m both deeply touched and humbled that so many people—almost none of which I’ve every met in person—were kind enough to donate money to help me purchase a replacement for my aging Dell desktop.
I swung by the
TigerDirect outlet store here in Raleigh during lunch and was able to find a
solid, basic laptop that I think will take care of my needs quite nicely. I'll likely pick it up next week when the transfer of funds from PayPal to my bank is complete.
I couldn't have done it without the support of both blog readers and of course, my fellow bloggers, who linked to my bleg.
Bloggers and blog readers are truly wonderful folks.
From the bottom of my cold conservative heart,
thank you.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
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WHAT! A CONSERVATIVE WITH A HEART? GET OUTTA HERE!
LOL,
Marshall Neal,
Baklersfield, CA
Posted by: Marsh at October 12, 2006 01:26 PM (aE9Lg)
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Dirty, Dirty Harry
If current Senate Minority Leader Harry Reid suddenly find himself on the wrong end of a full investigation by the Senate Ethics Committee for a undisclosed land deal that made him quite rich, he'll have no one to blame but himself, and perhaps, the company he keeps:
Reid's avoidance of disclosure hid two aspects of his business relationships. The first was his association with Jay Brown, who has a history of being involved in scandal. The NY Times describes him as "a prominent Las Vegas lawyer," but they never get around to mentioning his involvement in a federal bribery case in Las Vegas. Nor do they mention Brown's work as a lobbyist, as the AP did, nor do they follow up on the AP's report of connections between Brown and organized crime.
The other part Reid wanted to keep secret was the financial ties between himself and Harvey Whittemore. The AP story reported that Reid bought the parcel from "a developer who was benefiting from a government land swap that Reid supported," a perfect description of Whittemore in 1998 when Reid purchased the land. For the next seven years, Reid would work to ease Whittemore's difficulties in developing the Coyote Springs project by forcing the government to swap its right-of-way for less valuable land owned by Whittemore; he tried to get the government to literally give away more of its land to Whittemore, although he would not succeed; and in the end, he pressed federal regulators to lift a endangered-species restriction on Whittemore's Coyote Springs real estate. All of this helped give Whittemore an opportunity to make tens of millions on residential and commercial development in the former test range site.
Personally, I'm not big on covering corruption scandals, but I've been hearing for quite some time that "Dirty Harry" has long held ties with the shadiest of characters, so this wouldn't unduly surprise me. What happens next?
Time will tell.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
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Confirming or Debunking the Lancet Study with One Simple Question
The controversial and disputed Johns Hopkins study published (free reg required) in the Lancet today claims an additional 654,965 deaths as the result of the Iraq War since 2003, 610,000 of those deaths as a result of violence. It also claims they were able to verify that 92% of those 629 claimed killed in their survey had valid death certificates.
Using the research of the John Hopkins study, the Iraqi Ministry of Health should be able to therefore produce roughly 602,568 total death certificates (654,965 x 92%), and 561,200 (610,000 x 92%) of these death certificates should by attributed to violent deaths, if they do in fact collect such information nationally.
If they have far, far less death certificates on file, then the Lancet study will have invalidated itself using it's own methodology, would it not?
I'll also be very interested to find out whether or not Gilbert Burnham of John Hopkins or the editors of the
Lancet made any attempt to check their figures against any available compilations of the number of death certificates issued in Iraq as a check on their research. Iraqi morgues regularly and independently released their own figures until September, when the Iraqi government took over that responsibility, which was after the data in the study was compiled by June of 2006.
Other Estimates
Not surprisingly the study figures--far beyond every other survey done by orders of magnitude--are widely discounted by most, and run contrary to every previous attempt to estimate casualties.
Iraq Body Count, a well-respected site that tracks the number of casualties in Iraq based upon media reports, lists the maximum number of casualties to date at 48,693.
The Brookings Institute
reports (PDF) their estimate, based upon IBC and United Nations Cumulative data until August 31, 2006, to be a slightly higher figure of 62,000 civilian deaths due to violence. Michael E. O'Hanlon of the Brookings Institution said of the Lancet numbers:
"I do not believe the new numbers. I think they're way off," he said.
A June 25, 2006 Los Angeles
Times report comes up with
another set of figures:
The Times attempted to reach a comprehensive figure by obtaining statistics from the Baghdad morgue and the Health Ministry and checking those numbers against a sampling of local health departments for possible undercounts.
The Health Ministry gathers numbers from hospitals in the capital and the outlying provinces. If a victim of violence dies at a hospital or arrives dead, medical officials issue a death certificate. Relatives claim the body directly from the hospital and arrange for a speedy burial in keeping with Muslim beliefs.
If the morgue receives a body — usually those deemed suspicious deaths — officials there issue the death certificate.
Health Ministry officials said that because death certificates are issued and counted separately, the two data sets are not overlapping.
The Baghdad morgue received 30,204 bodies from 2003 through mid-2006, while the Health Ministry said it had documented 18,933 deaths from "military clashes" and "terrorist attacks" from April 5, 2004, to June 1, 2006. Together, the toll reaches 49,137.
Obviously, the Johns Hopkins study figures published in today’s Lancet are far higher than any previous estimates. It will be quite interesting to see if these figures—already dismissed by every world leader and military leader commenting on it so far—can indeed be defended.
As Bryan notes at
Hot Air:
The Lancet study would have us believe that 2.5% of Iraq has been killed by the war in the past three years. It would have us believe that more Iraqis have died as a result of a mid-sized insurgency than Americans died in World War II. Or the Civil War. Or Germans, who died in World War II, fighting against the combined might of the USSR, the British Empire and the United States, at a time when Germany was reduced to conscripting young boys and old men to resist those armies as they approached Berlin.
This study, in other words, is nonsense on stilts.
Of course it is, but it will be most entertaining if we can debunk them using their own informaiton against them.
Update: A word on public health methodology from a medical professional at
Jane Galt:
And sorry, but the defense that it's as soundly designed as can be expected for these kinds of public health surveys is a weak one. Retrospective, interview-based studies like this are poor designs. It may be the standard way of gathering data in the public health field, but that doesn't make it the best methodology, and it certainly doesn't make its statistics sound. For too long the field of public health has relied on these types of shotty shoddy numbers to influence public policy, whether it's the number of people who die from second hand smoke or the number who die from eating the wrong kinds of cooking oils.
The same blog post notes that
Lancet-published studies of the past have been
throughly debunked for shoddy research.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
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1
If they have far, far less death certificates on file, then the Lancet study will have invalidated itself using it's own methodology, would it not?No. Not at all. Iraq is a chaotic country with an ineffective government. There are many little fiefdoms and regions that are effectively independent, with very little coordination with the central government. It would be absolutely astounding if, with Iraq in the state it is now, there was any central government authority with a massive database of every single death certificate that had been issued by every local authority in the country. Only statistical methods, imprecise as they are, can hope to give even a vaguely accurate picture.
Iraq Body Count, a well-respected site that tracks the number of casualties in Iraq based upon media reports, lists the maximum number of casualties to date at 48,693.Can you please, just to ease the mental strain on the rest of us, acknowledge that you understand that the IBC is based on media reports, and not every single death in the country is reported by the media? You get that right? As the IBC themselves say:
Our maximum therefore refers to reported deaths - which can only be a sample of true deaths unless one assumes that every civilian death has been reported. It is likely that many if not most civilian casualties will go unreported by the media. That is the sad nature of war.
Posted by: Mat at October 12, 2006 10:03 AM (kVBtr)
2
Can you please, just to ease the mental strain on the rest of us, acknowledge that you understand that the IBC is based on media reports...
You mean, like in the exact section you quoted?
dee-dee-dee...
And I'm waiting on your explaination of why the Brookings and L.A.Times estiamtes are so off, and yet close to each other, and why every government leader in the free world, including the Iraqis themselves, think this report is utter bunk.
Do you really, honestly think that the earlier estimates were off by more casualties than were compiled in the the U.S Civil War, or those sustained by the German Military in World War II, and the entire world just fault missed it?
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at October 12, 2006 10:19 AM (g5Nba)
3
You mean, like in the exact section you quoted?What came after the ellipsis, dude? It was important, you know. The IBC is an under-estimate.
The Brookings numbers are based on the IBC.
As to what's wrong with the LA Times numbers, it's right there in the link you provided:Many more Iraqis are believed to have been killed but not counted because of serious lapses in recording deaths in the chaotic first year after the invasion, when there was no functioning Iraqi government, and continued spotty reporting nationwide since.
...and why every government leader in the free world, including the Iraqis themselves, think this report is utter bunk.Every leader in the free world? You have a quote from the Prime Minister of Belgium?
The reason why the leaders of Iraq and the USA want to deny these numbers is that they're trying to keep control of a country on the verge of civil war, and bad news just makes this worse. And there's nothing even wrong with that. But they're hardly disinterested commentators.
Do you really, honestly think that the earlier estimates were off by more casualties than were compiled in the the U.S Civil War, or those sustained by the German Military in World War II, and the entire world just fault missed it?I believe that the earlier estimates were dramatic underestimates, mainly because the very people who compiled them claim... that they're dramatic underestimates. To be honest, I'm not entirely convinced that it's 655,000 myself, but this survey has by far the best methodology I've seen so far, so until a better survey comes along, that's what I'm going with.
And I don't know why you keep going on about this "and we just missed it" line. Which news are you watching? Every day we get news about an attack or a discovery of butchered victims. No-one's missing anything, except reliable overall statistics, and that's precisely what the John Hopkins study is supposed to correct.
Posted by: Mat at October 12, 2006 10:50 AM (KvK7c)
4
So Iraq has almost the same rate of population loss as Japan had during WWII? 550 Iraqi dead per day? Give me a break. With the last study these folks did right before the 2004 election, this is beyond questionable methodology. It borders on election tampering.
G. Hamid
Posted by: G. Hamid at October 12, 2006 11:22 AM (Ej1ST)
5
Could someone with more military knowledge than myself provide me with air strike figures from the period of June of 2005 to June of 2006 or tell me where I might be able to get such figures?
What I want to know specifically is how many actual targets were struck during this period?
Posted by: mike at October 12, 2006 01:41 PM (c5sWc)
6
I see Mat has already corrected your misuse of Iraq Body Count. However, keep in mind that there's something else Mat missed.
IBC counts *only* violent, civilian deaths recorded by two English speaking sources.
It doesn't count military actions, terrorist actions, etc., and it only counts those that are dual reported.
If you said "if you could prove to me there were more than 40,000 innocent victims of this war, I'd agree it was wrong" (I can't imagine your actually saying that...), then I could send you to IBC, and you could see that there have certainly been many more than that.
The study tried to chase down all additional deaths, from all causes, regardless of whether or not they were reported.
So, it tried to grab deaths of civilians, military, police, insurgent, terrorist, or unknown, for any cause, and then subtracted the number of deaths we would have expected, had things stayed the way they did in the 14 months pre-invasion.
As for the big numbers of deaths, 833 deaths per day is one 30,000th of the Iraqi population per day. If there were 833 deaths per year, ten people handled each body, and they all took turns, in one year, a mere 1/8th of Iraq would have had to take a turn being one of the ten people on body duty for a single body. Yes, the large number of deaths could be swallowed up, especially when it quickly stopped being "news". Do you see it in the newspaper when someone mugs a person in the bad part of town?
The study, taken over completely different populations, provided greater support for the 2004 report, coming up with similar number, with greater precision. Instead of 8-192k, centered on 98k, we have about 60-160k, centered on 112k. If you study the same phenomenon twice, and get similar results, you're virtually certain to be on the right track. Sure, your methodology could be screwed up, but screwed up so as to skew the results to such a similar estimate?
Face it; you've got strong evidence that the invasion has killed hundreds of thousands of people. Your choice is to try to learn the truth, or to insist you don't like the truth and walk away.
But until you find a *real* problem with the evidence, something more than "Bush thinks it's wrong, and the Iraqi government thinks it's wrong and (some UK officials - I don't know if Blair commented or not) say its wrong!", you're refusing to accept the strongest evidence we have.
Of course Bush would refuse to accept the evidence; he doesn't want to be known as the man whose invasion caused 650,000 deaths. Ditto for the UK, who were in it from the start, in a big way. Iraq doesn't want to admit they can't keep their citizenry safe.
But what are the statisticians who have dug into the guts of the report saying?
One of them - me, though I'm not an expert on experimental design, I can check the numbers and assumptions, and they *do* add up - says that it's solid. Rock solid. It would just about require deliberate fraud to make this report inaccurate. And if you're going to claim deliberate fraud, you ought to have evidence, or, again, you'd be refusing to accept the strongest evidence we have.
Posted by: Longhairedweirdo at October 12, 2006 04:19 PM (cFBux)
7
The Baghdad morgue received 30,204 bodies from 2003 through mid-2006, while the Health Ministry said it had documented 18,933 deaths from "military clashes" and "terrorist attacks" from April 5, 2004, to June 1, 2006. Together, the toll reaches 49,137.
The L.A. Times numbers only take into account the deaths that occured in Baghdad, what about the rest of the country, if 50,000 deaths occured in the capital, a number of 100,000 t0 150,000 is not that far fetched for the rest of the country (Baghdad has 1/6 of the whole Iraqi population, so maybe a number of 300,000 is not that far fetched)
Posted by: Mike Huntley at October 15, 2006 01:40 PM (Db6U5)
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October 11, 2006
Help You, Help Me: The First Blegburst (Bumped)
Update: A huge "thank you" is in order to all my fellow bloggers who linked this post (you know who you are), and to the readers who were kind enough to contribute so generously so far. Thanks to your donations, I am very close to being able to get a replacement PC for this old clunker. I couldn't do this without you, and I'm touched by all your support.
I guess I wasn't paying very close attention, but at some point yesterday I cracked a million visits on ye olde Sitemeter, a good chunk of which came from
this post that took me longer to upload than create.
I think this a milestone of some sort, and so I'll do what bloggers often take this once-in-lifetime opportunity to do: bleg. But not just
any bleg.
What's a bleg?
According to
Samizdata:
Bleg verb. To use one's blog to beg for assistance (usually for information, occasionally for money). One who does so is a 'blegger'. Usually intended as humorous.
Yes,
usually intended as humorous, and I think I would be
quite tickled, neigh,
giddy at the thought of those of you who have visited this humble blog over the past year and eleven months contributing just
one small dime for each visit you've made.
Granted, Sally Struthers claims that for one dime a day that you can "give the gift of hope, the gift of life," to
some small child in Africa, but does that starving urchin plop down in front of a keyboard several times each day to keep
you entertained with wit and insight?
I think not.
Besides, as a social conservative, I'm pretty sure that's pretty much welfare, and how are we going to force them to get off their sickbeds and learn to provide for themselves if we make them reliant on charity? Help them learn self-sufficiency by giving
me your money instead.
For unlike rudimentary every day supplies like "food" and "water" that the impoverished can get
almost anywhere not devoured by famine and pestilence, I have more technical needs that must be satisfied so that I can to continue to bring you
this dreck the high-quality content and occasional tomfoolery you've come to expect here at
Confederate Yankee.
Specifically, I need a new computer.
The Dell Dimension L733R that I've held together since 2001 with spit and bailing wire is coming apart (and getting just a bit groady). And
yes, I blegged for cash for a replacement
almost a year ago, but you know, my
drug problem came first, and the blegged cash went to paying that off. Damn doctors.
And so I implore you to use what you've gained from this
record-breaking Republican Economy to help me ensure your blog-reading enjoyment. Help fund the equipment I need to continue bringing you both insightful conservative commentary, bias against media bias,
and crude, sophomoric PhotoShops.
But wait, there's more!
And I will give something back to the blogging community in kind for your support, a new, powerful and practical concept:
blegburst.
How do I know it's new? It's not
here.
And it’s imminently useful, especially to those of you in the blogging community.
But Bob, How does it work?
I'm
so glad you asked.
Put simply, a blegburst is when you beg for money or some other sort of assistance online,
and other bloggers link your plea. And the coolest thing is this: as blegbursts are brand
page-spanking new, you can participate in the
very first one.
Isn't that exciting?
Wow! What do I need to do to participate?
It's actually quite simple. Simply link this post in one of your own blog posts. It
really is that simple.
Plus, no smelly, starving kids!
It's a win-win situation for all, and I and my new computer thank you for your support.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
11:05 PM
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1
Congratulations, CY!!! Here's to many more!
Posted by: William Teach at October 10, 2006 07:25 PM (doAuV)
2
Congratulations!
This must have been a helluva moment for you. I still remember clearly when I went over 100k (adjusted) on my own humble blog.
And I just went over 100k (unadjusted) and even that felt good.
And you deserve the traffic and assistance, this has been a fantastic site to follow.
Posted by: David Earney at October 11, 2006 01:12 AM (ficDc)
3
How big a computer are you looking for? Google tells me a Dimension L733R is a PIII 733.
I have more than a few "extra" computers hanging around. I just got a P4 yesterday that I probably have nothing to do with.
If you want, I can probably find something and you can spend any cash you make to support your drug problem.
Paul from wizbang... you can figure out the email address.
BTW If you're itching for a new flatscreen, Office Depot has very highy reviewed 19" LCD's for ~100 bucks. I'll give you a link if you want.
Posted by: Paul at October 11, 2006 07:31 AM (Ms5q6)
4
For the record, and FYI, I believe that while the word "bleg" appears to have been formally codified by Samizdata, the original coiner of the term was The Corner's John Derbyshire on NRO.
Posted by: Charlie at October 11, 2006 10:13 AM (fEnUg)
5
FYI- I got an email from someone who said I should reread my comment here because I was not clear. -- They're probably right.
I was offering to cut to chase and just mail you a computer.
It might not be a state of the art gaming machine, but it will take out a PIII I'm sure. ;-)
P
Posted by: Paul at October 11, 2006 11:31 AM (Ms5q6)
6
Paul,
It would be greatly appreciated if that is what you would like to do. I sent an email to the same email addy I've used in the past in communicating with you at wizbang... let me know if you got it.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at October 11, 2006 11:39 AM (g5Nba)
7
Does this mean I can beg for a new computer and Paul will give me one, too?
Posted by: SilverBubble at October 11, 2006 08:51 PM (5GfJ7)
8
I hope you googlewhacked "blegburst." You deserve the immortality.
Posted by: Bleepless at October 11, 2006 09:38 PM (l73nU)
9
$100 for a 19" flatscreen? That is a deal.
Posted by: Jack at October 12, 2006 02:32 PM (S67uf)
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Small Plane Hits NYC Skyscraper
I hope this is just an accident:
The aircraft struck the 20th floor of a building on East 72nd Street, said Fire Department spokeswoman Emily Rahimi. Witnesses said the crash caused a loud noise, and burning and falling debris was seen. Flames were seen shooting out of the windows.
"There's huge pieces of debris falling," said one witness who refused to give her full name. "There's so much falling now, I've got to get away."
The article goes on to say that this is a 50 story building, meaning that 30 stories of the building is above the site of the strike, which would likely make it difficult for people to escape through the elevators. The relatively low strike and small size of the plane might make a rooftop helicopter evacuation plausible, but I just don't have enough details to know.
It is too early to know how bad the fire may be or what the proximate cause was at this point. More as this develops...
Update From Allah's
description, it does indeed sound like an accident and it appears that the NYFD will bring this under control, if they haven't already.
Update: NY Yankee's pitcher
Cory Lidle and an instructor pilot were killed in the crash.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
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Apparently it looks as if Yankee pitcher Cory Lidle was onboard and is feared dead.
Posted by: Nico at October 11, 2006 04:36 PM (059Fh)
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The Greatest Conspiracy Ever
Complete and utter crap.
I'm frankly amazed that the same idiots who brought us the
massively inflated body count study just before the 2004 election cycle would be
stupid enough to try to float their
same lies again, saying that as many as 650,000 Iraqis have died since the war began in 2003, 601,000 from violence.
Proving once again that there are "lies, damn lies, and statistics," this study
overestimates the number of actual deaths by just a mere 600,000 or so, according to the widely-regarded anti-war
Iraq Body Count which puts the
maximum number of Iraqis killed at
less than 50,000.
Even the basic premise of the study is dishonest, taking into account all Iraqi deaths over the past few years—car crashes, cancer, heart attacks, adverse drug reactions; anything will do—and including those non-war-related deaths along with the deaths of insurgents, Iraqi police, Iraqi military, and "legitimate" civilian combat-related deaths.
Now I'm not surprised that someone blatantly dishonest enough to use
sockpuppets to protect his fragile ego is
supporting this dreck, but I expect people with a modicum of common sense to realize, that as
Blue Crab Boulevard notes, that for this study to be close to valid, that an additional 15,500 people are dying
each month than every recognized government and private estimate of deaths has ever supported. That's 400-500 additional deaths
per day than any media outlet on the planet has reported.
Let's use common sense for just a second: if this study was even third of what they claim (which would be almost 217,000 civilian deaths), don't you think that such a catastrophic loss of live would have been noticed by someone? al Jazeera, or al Manar, or maybe slightly larger and well-funded news organizations, such as the Associated Press, Reuters, or United Press International? Of course it would have. It is a mathematical impossibility to have hidden even this number of civilian combat deaths from a war zone so thoroughly saturated with media.
As a former President once said, you can fool all of the people some of the time, all of the people some of the time, but you can't fool all of the people all of the time. It would have taken the greatest cover-up in human history to have been able to have covered up 217,000 civilian deaths as a result of the war, much less the massively inflated body count of 650,000.
As I just left in the comments at Matthew Yglesias'
site:
...Where are the bodies?
The Iraq war is extremely well covered by the international news media and is of specific interest to the Arab media in particular, and yet not a single media outlet in the world will independently claim even ten-percent of what this study suggests. Don’t it set off even the slightest alarm bells when a figure this greatly inflated comes across your radar?
A simple, cursory look at the well-respected anti-war site Iraq Body Count will reflect that the maximum number of civilian deaths is less than 50,000.
I know some are completely blinded by partisanship on both sides of this issue, but common sense has to tell you this study (once again timed for release before an election—how convenient, that) is patently absurd.
To buy these conclusions, you have to swallow the impossibility that Reuters, the Associated Press, UPI, the BBC, the New York Times, the Guardian, Robert Fisk, al Manar, al Jazeera, and every other news conglomeration in Iraq are a willful part of the largest cover-up in human history, hiding three times of the number of those killed in Hiroshima and Nagasaki combined (214,000 according to wikipedia) over the course of three-plus years.
It’s patently absurd.
I know we disagree and disagree strongly over the Iraq war, but even the most rabidly anti-war bloggers should come out strongly against this politically-motivated farce, if for no other reason than to protect your own integrity.
This “study” is a blatant falsehood, and you know it.
So say so.
And yet, odds are neither Yglesias, nor Sock Puppet, nor
Think Progress, nor
Rising Hegemon, nor
attytood, nor any other liberal blog likely have the integrity to challenge the study nor the world's media outlets.
It is quite simple: either all of the world's media organizations are involved with a massive conspiracy with the U.S., British, and Iraqi governments for more than three years to cover up massive civilian losses roughly triple the number of those killed in Hiroshima and Nagasaki
--OR--
This study, like the one issued before it, is another statistical lie.
I'll let you and
Occam figure out which is more likely.
Update: The Iraqis think this study is
bogus as well h/t
HotAir:
THE Iraqi Government described as "exaggerated" an independent US study which estimated that 655,000 Iraqis had died since the 2003 US invasion.
US President George W. Mr Bush had similarly called the report "not credible".
The study estimated that one Iraqi in 40 had died as a result of the conflict by comparing the death rates from the period before the war to the period from March 2003 to June 2006.
"This figure, which in reality has no basis, is exaggerated," said Iraqi government spokesman Ali Debbagh.
"It is a figure which flies in the face of the most obvious truths," he said, calling on research institutions to adopt precise and transparent criteria especially when the research concerns victim tolls.
The study has no basis in reality, and flies in the face of the most obvious truths.
Of course, that's
just the Iraqis saying that, not the report of an anti-war Democrat researcher who has
contributed money to anti-war candidates, so the Iraqis are assuredly wrong.
Update: One of the "Loose Changers" in the comments accidentally helped provide a good self-debunking point contained in the report:
If you'd bother to read the study before denouncing it, you'd find that they were able to produce Death Certificates to verify 90% of the reported deaths in the sampled households.
If that is indeed the case and the study results are validly extrapolated, then the Iraqi government should be able to produce 540,000 death certificates. Even if they can provide death certificates for just half of those that the study authors claim were killed by violence, then government morgues should be able to produce 300,000 death certificates, which
again the media would have picked up very quickly as the media
consistently uses the Iraqi morgues as a source for fatalities for their stories on a
daily basis.
In short, the study provides the evidence—or lack thereof—debunking itself.
Update: Baghdad dentist Omar Fadil
cuts loose:
When the statistics announced by hospitals and military here, or even by the UN, did not satisfy their lust for more deaths, they resorted to mathematics to get a fake number that satisfies their sadistic urges.
When I read the report I can only feel apathy and inhumanity from those who did the count towards the victims and towards our suffering as a whole. I can tell they were so pleased when the equations their twisted minds designed led to those numbers and nothing can convince me that they did their so called research out of compassion or care.
To me their motives are clear, all they want is to prove that our struggle for freedom was the wrong thing to do. And they shamelessly use lies to do this…when they did not find the death they wanted to see on the ground, they faked it on paper! They disgust me…
This fake research is an insult to every man, woman and child who lost their lives.
As they say,
read the whole thing.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
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I read about this and blew it off as the garbage it represents. This is the kind of tripe one would expect from supermarket tabloids, not from institutions sponsored by MIT; then, again, consider the geographical location.
Posted by: Old Soldier at October 11, 2006 11:16 AM (X2tAw)
2
The Iraq Body Count counts specific acts of violence as reported by the press. The maximum they report is achieved simply by adding up all the "up to X people were reported killed in the explosion" figures from all the reports. This is in no way intended to mean the maximum possible additional deaths caused by the war.
This study, as you say, counts all deaths, but, as you noticeably do not say, it subtracts from that the number of deaths that you would expect over that period, extrapolated from the number of deaths that occured during the years before the war.
That is to say, during unstable times, people are poorer. Some poor people turn to crime. Sometimes the crime turns ugly and the victim gets shot. Sometimes the victim is armed and the criminal gets shot. This doesn't get reported in the media, and the only way to pick it up is to look at the statistics.
There's no conspiracy to hide these deaths, it's just that the vast majority of them are too mundane to make the news. We do indeed regularly see spectacular discoveries of 60 mutilated corpses here and 30 bodies there, but you can only get an overall impression with statistics.
Statistics are hard to collate in Iraq at the moment, so of course all these results should be taken with a grain of salt. But please, tell us what methodology you would prefer. Or would you rather just not know?
Posted by: Mat at October 11, 2006 11:38 AM (VkWIA)
3
If you check Iraq body count, they say that they are listing only confirmed deaths, and, IIRC, deaths of *CIVILIANS*. Their "maximum" is not the maximum number of deaths possible... it's the maximum number of confirmed, verifiable deaths of civilians.
But don't believe me. Ask them.
As for how it could be happening, without someone reporting it, someone *did*. And when Lancet suggested 100,000 deaths, I reckon you complained about that, too.
But here's one thing to think about. How many Iraqi soldiers were killed in the initial invasion? How much "collateral damage" do you think was done during the invasion? Massive bombardment, and soldiers going in full force, are going to cause a lot of deaths... and the Pentagon tries to avoid body counts.
Posted by: Longhairedweirdo at October 11, 2006 12:23 PM (z9gCU)
4
Wow, talk about an intellectually dishonest rant, Yankee. You don't bother to read the methodolgy used and just flat dismiss it out of hand because your gut tells you to. Bravo.
Consider this. How many people are dying violently in Baghdad alone these days? 100 a day are the reported figures. _Half_ that number extrapolated for 3 1/2 years is more than the entire Iraq Body Count figure, and that's just for the capital. There's another 90 or so good sized cities and towns, some of which have virtually no Allied forces present and the crazies are running things. You think they're all dutifully reporting any and all deaths to what passes for a government there?
You have an entire country of rather poor people invaded and occupied, their entire infrastructrue shattered, a total power vacuum created, sectarian battles playing out on the streets, basically civil war wherever American and British troops aren't, which is pretty much everywhere. You think that under those circumstances an extra 300-400 people could't disappear quietly into the night, every night?
Posted by: Jared at October 11, 2006 12:28 PM (pzwSt)
5
Good lord, we've been invaded by Truthers.
You think that under those circumstances an extra 300-400 people could't disappear quietly into the night, every night?
Um, no. People have friends and family, both near and far, who would notice these additional people disappearing were it actually occurring, and they would certainly find a very sympathetic media rather quickly if this was occurring. But it isn't, is it?
Beside where are the bodies?
Sunni and Shiite death squads don't bury bodies, they dump them. The bodies of those they torture and kill always turn up within hours or days, and are taken to closely watched central morgues for identification.
According to your theory, there must be some ignored allyway in Baghdad with 600,000 dead people in it that nobody's stumbled across yet.
Folks, I can point you to the common sense answers that if the level of violence alleged was there it wold be widely reported in the media and the bodies would certainly turn up, but all I can do is ask you to use your brains, I can't force you too.
According to this study, we're short almost three times as many people in Iraq as died in both atomic bomb strikes, and yet nobody in Iraq, including the media, seems to know that entire cities worth of people are unaccounted for.
This is bull, and deep down, you know it.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at October 11, 2006 12:47 PM (g5Nba)
6
Beside where are the bodies?Some of them are here:Officials at Baghdad mortuary say they received 1,855 bodies in July, as the capital remains gripped in a wave of violence which has beset it for months.Almost 2000 in one month! That's a plausible count of 50,000 over three years from just one mortuary in Baghdad.
Posted by: Mat at October 11, 2006 12:59 PM (VkWIA)
7
Almost 2000 in one month! That's a plausible count of 50,000 over three years from just one mortuary in Baghdad.
And yet, the outbreak of sectarian violnce is less than a year old, isn't it?
Your still more than a half million bodies short from even your sickest flights of "Loose Change" fancy.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at October 11, 2006 01:05 PM (g5Nba)
8
And yet, the outbreak of sectarian violnce is less than a year old, isn't it?No.
Your still more than a half million bodies short from even your sickest flights of "Loose Change" fancy.
To make this clear, I don't know precisely how many people have died in Iraq because of the war. I'm very, very confident that it's more than shown on the Iraq Body Count, not least because the Iraq Body Count says it's more than shown on the Iraq Body Count. But the Baghdad morgue figures are another clue.
We can argue about what may or may not have happened in Baghdad until judgement day, but it's a complete waste of time. The only way to get a good overall picture is by the analysis of statistics. And the methodology used in this case seems as good as you're likely to get, given the limitations of conducting research in an environment like Iraq. Given the evidence we're seeing, from the media, from the Baghdad morgue, and other hints, a figure of about half a million doesn't seem implausible.
So you do in fact find it implausible. Fine. Can you explain what specifically is wrong with the methodology used here? What specifically would you change to come up with a more accurate figure? Because so far, all you've done is say "come on, it can't be that bad, right?" Which isn't a very convincing argument.
Posted by: Mat at October 11, 2006 01:23 PM (VkWIA)
9
If you'd bother to read the study before denouncing it, you'd find that they were able to produce Death Certificates to verify 90% of the reported deaths in the sampled households.
And to reiterate Jared's point, this is an estimate of EXCESS Mortality. Not occupation casualties. The mortality rate from all causes of death since the invasion are up by an estimated 650,000 from what would have occurred if the same mortality rate from the two years prior to the invasion had been maintained.
In other words, things might not have been so great under Saddam, but they sure as hell haven't gotten any better so far.
Posted by: Ed at October 11, 2006 02:08 PM (yfKhZ)
10
Right. Occam's Razor clearly tells us that the simplest explanation for this study is that a team of researchers devoted years toward the development of reliable and widely-used statistical methods; hundreds of hours of labor to researching and writing an article that applies those methods to a current conflict; surreptitiously grooming peer-reviewers to approve the article for publication . . . all to make the previously-unheard-of observation that the Iraq War has delivered catastrophic consequences to the people of Iraq.
Posted by: d at October 11, 2006 02:22 PM (LHK5X)
11
do you have anything more substantial to say than "i dont believe it so it cannot be so"? no? thank you. even the instapundit, who usually will link to just about anything, didn't link to it.
Posted by: g at October 11, 2006 02:59 PM (nVEt2)
12
So in your world, it is more conceivable that a single academic study led by someone with a distinct and noted anti-war bias—who’s previous nearly identical study was widely panned and never replicated—is telling the capital "T" truth?
You have to believe the outlandish claim that 600,000 people—more than 2% of Iraq's population—was wiped out without anyone in the country at all having any indication that a simply massive genocide was occurring. And it would be a major genocide—twice the side of the Darfur Genocide, and approaching Rwandan Genocide levels—without the world’s media and the Iraqi government alike becoming unaware of such a slaughter right under their noses?
Or are they just part of the grand conspiracy?
You’ve got a screw loose.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at October 11, 2006 03:02 PM (g5Nba)
13
do you have anything more substantial to say than "i dont believe it so it cannot be so"?
You mean other than the governments of the two countries most involved claiming the study flies it the face of reality?
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at October 11, 2006 03:05 PM (g5Nba)
14
Ed:
The whole point is that they extrapolated less than 600 deaths into 600,000. This is ridiculous. Wasn't it Orwell who said that some things are so stupid only an intellectual would believe them? I react to this the same way I react to a holocaust denier: You would have to be an idiot to believe that crap.
In five years of flying tens of thousands of missions over Germany the Allies managed to inflict 590,000 civilian German casualties...and even in that war with millions dead, people noticed the fire bombing of Dresden.
As for whether things have gotten better so far, 80% of the people of Iraq support their PM. That PM was elected to power. Niether he or his government would exist if not for the invasion.
This will be used as propaganda to help create more violence and more bloodshed. How does that help?
Posted by: Terrye at October 11, 2006 03:21 PM (bsvGC)
15
Oh no, the idiots are back again.
Posted by: bri at October 11, 2006 03:55 PM (D6LRh)
16
Right, CY. I can't imagine why a government who vowed to liberate the Iraqi people (and the weak, inept leadership installed by that government) would dispute a study that suggests their efforts coincided with a spike in that nation's mortality rate. It's baffling, really.
As for the matter of "genocide," I don't even know what to tell you, since you clearly haven't fully comprehended what the research is supposed to be suggesting. I do find it instructive, however, that you would throw such words around so carelessly on a blog that strives (or so you claim) for accuracy and clear thought.
Yes, Bri, the idiots are back -- but it seems, actually, that they've been here all along.
Posted by: d at October 11, 2006 04:33 PM (LHK5X)
17
Those elected members in Congress that are connected, in anyway, to this lie should answer to www.PurgeCongress.com.
Posted by: cmunit at October 11, 2006 05:08 PM (1LxXM)
18
I propose a challenge to the most notorious Lancet-apologist of all, Tim Lambert:
Use the study itself to extrapolate the number of death certificates supposedly having been published by the Iraqi government since the invasion.
As you say, this should produce an insanely high number of death certificates, which will not match up with Iraqi records, thus debunking the entire basis for the survey.
Come on, everyone go to Lambert's blog and persuade him into coming up with the number - just so we can watch his head explode at the thought he has been covering for these hacks for 2 years.
Posted by: Seixon at October 11, 2006 07:02 PM (tycOE)
19
This was one pi** pore study by a professor. Asking around a few villages and then multiplying the result. Sounds more like a kindergarden guess. It was fully explained when the said the UK idiot Galloway was involved. Forget it, it's too lame to worry about. By the way the poster that "said" they had death records is as full of it as the professor. I hope your family doesn't let you out on the street alone. You are a danger to yourself. The soldiers job is to make sure the other guy dies, not die to prove a point to some left wing democratic coward in the U.S.
Posted by: Scrapiron at October 11, 2006 07:03 PM (vFS/o)
20
According to the silly report more than 22,000 people have died every single month in Iraq since the invasion. They do not tell us who these people were or where their remains are. They should, they made the claim they should back it up with something other than a survey.
This is absurd on its face. Do I think these men spent years coming up with this for no good reason? No, they came up with it to create propaganda and feed antiAmericanism. If it inspires more hatred and paranoia and gets a few more people killed, that is just icing on the cake I guess.
Posted by: Terrye at October 11, 2006 07:26 PM (HwwKy)
21
d doesn't like it when trolls come to his little unused teacher blog, but he's happy to come out from under the bridge himself, it seems.
Posted by: bri at October 11, 2006 07:45 PM (6gvKb)
22
This was one pi** pore study by a professor. Asking around a few villages and then multiplying the result.
Your knowledge of statistics is astonishing, Scrapiron. And you, too, Terrye:
According to the silly report more than 22,000 people have died every single month in Iraq since the invasion. They do not tell us who these people were or where their remains are.
Because there's really no difference between statistical extrapolations and obituaries -- if we don't have names and burial locations, it must be phoney baloney! [Insert cliched quotation from Mark Twain about lies and statistics here].
Posted by: d at October 11, 2006 07:52 PM (LHK5X)
23
d doesn't like it when trolls come to his little unused teacher blog, but he's happy to come out from under the bridge himself, it seems.
That's actually not my blog you're referring to, bri. Trolls can go wherever they want, as far as I'm concerned.
I happen to come here because I find Confederate Yankee to be an interesting, stimulating source of political debate and wise-crackery. And the comments. I can't get enough of the comments.
Posted by: d at October 11, 2006 07:57 PM (LHK5X)
24
WTF?? This sounded like it was something. Until I followed the link, and found out you guys were arguing about a study that HASN'T EVEN BEEN PUBLISHED YET!
In words of one syllable, shee-it!
Posted by: dzho at October 11, 2006 08:20 PM (jb33V)
25
WTF?? This sounded like it was something. Until I followed the link, and found out you guys were analyzing a study that HASN'T EVEN BEEN PUBLISHED YET!
In words of one syllable, shyee-it!
Posted by: dzho at October 11, 2006 08:21 PM (jb33V)
26
According to the silly report more than 22,000 people have died every single month in Iraq since the invasion. They do not tell us who these people were or where their remains are. They should, they made the claim they should back it up with something other than a survey.
The WHO and the World Bank "estimate" 1.2 million traffic deaths each year. Obviously this "estimate" is also silly, since that number of auto deaths would surely fill the news programmes, that number of wrecked cars would clog any street in any city in the world, and no-one, NO-ONE has yet listed the names of those supposedly killed in cars each year. The WHO and the World Bank get money by raising the spectre of traffic casualties, and both of them are clearly anti-automobile simply for having made such unfounded "estimates".
Right?
Posted by: Phoenician in a time of Romans at October 11, 2006 09:24 PM (iYlrE)
27
I also posted at the other web site (Yiglesias), and I'll repeat part of the post here. Given the difficulty with data collection asserted by one of the authors on CNN this morning (Malaysia time), does the data collected represent a random sample? Is it representative of the Iraqi population as a whole?
If not, the extrapolation is invalid, no matter that the study methodology (stratified sampling) is widely accepted. It is the application of the methodology that is the problem.
I would have not given a point estimate, especially of an extrapolated result.
Posted by: Dale at October 11, 2006 11:03 PM (jNkCV)
28
Well, if you really disagree with this study so passionately I suggest you do the following:
1) Read it.
2) Examine the specific claims that it makes, the data that it relies on, the methodology used to gather that data and the analysis used to reach the conclusions.
3) Look at the degree to which they conform to accepted standards of statistical sampling.
4) Point out any mistakes, shortcomings or faulty reasoning that you find.
If you're really dedicated, go for:
5) Conduct your own study of pre-invasion versus post-invasion iraqi mortality and get it published in a relevant peer-edited journal.
Or I guess you could just whine about it on a blog because it doesn't fit your ideological agenda. It beats having to actually make a well reasoned argument.
Posted by: justaguy at October 12, 2006 12:11 AM (3g0SX)
29
Let's say I took poll, ran an extrapolation, and came out with a conclusion that 80% of Americans are Republicans.
Now, my methodology looks good, i.e. I sampled "randomly" and I even got 92% of the respondees who claimed to be republican to produce a party membership card.
Hmmmmm, something doesn't pass the smell test, better check again. Maybe I should call up the GOP and see how many cards they've issued?
Nah, I'll just publish conveniently close to an election, and then wait for people to figure out where I went wrong. or not.
If 92% could produce a death certificate, but there aren't that many death certificates from the government records, what's the chances that they just happened to poll people who had certificates, but that most don't for some reason?
This survey could be correct - but if I had been the people doing this report, I would have had an independent team review my data and check the death certificate issue.
Also, if they are simply looking at mortality rates pre & post, yeah sure, Grandpa died a year earlier than he would have because medicine wasn't being imported in 2003 as compared to 2002.
But maybe it would have been better to compare the many other years of warfare and before food for oil program was in place, too.
Posted by: Aaron at October 12, 2006 03:09 AM (3kDfM)
30
"Let's say I took poll, ran an extrapolation, and came out with a conclusion that 80% of Americans are Republicans."
It is perfectly possible to conduct a methodologically sound study that produces misleading results due to sampling error. Possible, but not probable. Even if there were no net increase of deaths as a result of the invasion, the study wouldn't be wrong per se. They aren't saying that there have been an increase in deaths of 600k with absolute certainty, they are saying that with 95% certainty the increase in deaths falls between 426,369 and 793,663. There would be, I believe, a 2.5% chance that there are less than 426,369 deaths, and 2.5% that there were more than 793,663.
So a) even if the results wind up being misleading, don't assume that it is due to dishonesty on behalf of the researchers. They did risk their lives going throughout Iraq conducting research on a vital question that I don't see anyone else tracking down. Unless you have specific evidence of dishonesty or sloppyness on their part (which will probably come out when the article is subject to review by actual statiticians), that's just an ad homenum attack on facts that you do not like.
And b) if you doubt the results, or question their accuracy go out and do your own methodologically sound study and get back to us with the evidence that disproves it. Of course, since you have shown that you have a preconcieved notion of what the answer should be you can't really do that (the whole objectivity thing with science) but you get my point...
Posted by: Justaguy at October 12, 2006 06:34 AM (3g0SX)
31
Or better yet. There were 3 shooting deaths in hartford last night, 6 people killed in traffic accidents, 10 people died from heart attack, and 3 more from other disease. That is 22 deaths in one night. Now extrapolate that against the base population of the US. It says that there are thousands and thousands of deaths each day in the US. Especially shootings. But that isn't really the case is it? It is a mathematical illusion. Fluff. Nada.
Posted by: Specter at October 12, 2006 07:31 AM (ybfXM)
32
And...you can knock 70K to 80K off their analysis just by the fact that they could only confirm 90% of the 554 deaths in the sample population.
Posted by: Specter at October 12, 2006 07:36 AM (ybfXM)
33
700 bodies a day - not reported by the media..not likely, especially since the MSM is determined to only publish stories that make Bush look bad.
This 'study' by John Hopkins, was published in England, in a journal that has a poor reputation. (the 2004 attempt to affect the election)
this 'study' was not published in a respected US journal, why. I think the authors knew it would not pass a peer review in the US.
The researchers when down the street, stopped at each home where the family was there and willing to talk. I wonder how many of the deaths were double counted?
this is cheap politics not research.
Posted by: Marvin at October 12, 2006 07:58 AM (57AYn)
34
"I happen to come here because I find Confederate Yankee to be an interesting, stimulating source of political debate and wise-crackery. And the comments. I can't get enough of the comments." d
Or maybe because nobody goes to your, er, sorry, the two other sites I've seen you at. But come on, you gotta admit, you just can't run with the big boys. Stick with bilbo and frodo. They're more your speed.
Posted by: bri at October 12, 2006 11:47 AM (SzXM0)
35
This 'study' by John Hopkins, was published in England, in a journal that has a poor reputation. (the 2004 attempt to affect the election) this 'study' was not published in a respected US journal, why. I think the authors knew it would not pass a peer review in the US.
Uh, actually, Marvin, The Lancet is the most prestigious medical journal on the planet. But don't let that get in the way of your fantasy. Keep dreaming.
Posted by: d at October 12, 2006 01:30 PM (LHK5X)
36
Let's say I took poll, ran an extrapolation, and came out with a conclusion that 80% of Americans are Republicans.
Are you were trained in making such studies, did you used the same techniques that were acceptable in other studies, and did it pass peer-review in the third most prestigious scientific journal in the world?
This 'study' by John Hopkins, was published in England, in a journal that has a poor reputation.
Top 10 Impact Factors, scientific journals (2006):
Nature 51.97
Science 48.78
New Eng. J. Med. 19.84
Cell 15.34
PNAS 14.88
J Biol. Chem. 10.62
JAMA 8.49
Lancet 7.78
Nat Genet. 7.56
Nat Med. 6.53
Posted by: Phoenician in a time of Romans at October 12, 2006 04:12 PM (iYlrE)
37
This study is bogus because I don't like it and especially because it comes from the same group that determined the same thing 2 years ago.
I mean, they must be biased because I didn't like what their 2004 study said!
idiots. read the study first, then (and only if you actually understood it) criticize the methodology, sampling methods, etc...
The data is freely available to anyone who asks for it. I'm sure the expert statisticians among you can find all the problems and provide us with the "real" casualty rates (but you have to subject to peer-review and make your methodology public, as these guys have).
Until anybody does that, they have no basis whatsoever for criticizing this study's results.
Posted by: ME at October 12, 2006 04:18 PM (ZhBBw)
38
The numbers do add up.
"There was a sample of 12,801 individuals in 1,849 households, in 47 geographical locations. That is a big sample, not a small one. The opinion polls from Mori and such which measure political support use a sample size of about 2,000 individuals, and they have a margin of error of +/- 3%." [...]
"That qualitative conclusion is this: things have got worse, and they have got a lot worse, not a little bit worse. Whatever detailed criticisms one might make of the methodology of the study (and I have searched assiduously for the last two years, with the assistance of a lot of partisans of the Iraq war who have tried to pick holes in the study, and not found any), the numbers are too big. If you go out and ask 12,000 people whether a family member has died and get reports of 300 deaths from violence, then that is not consistent with there being only 60,000 deaths from violence in a country of 26 million. It is not even nearly consistent." [...]
"We can ensure that the people responsible for this outrage suffer the consequences of their actions. A particularly disgusting theme of some right-wing American critics of the study as been to impugn it by talking about it being "conveniently" released before the November congressional elections. As if a war that doubled the death rate in Iraq was not the sort of thing that ought to be a political issue. Nobody is doing anything about this disaster, and nobody will do until people start suffering some kind of consequences for their actions [...]"
Posted by: Phoenician in a time of Romans at October 12, 2006 04:35 PM (iYlrE)
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Welcoming my new Co-Blogger, Regan Teresa MacNeil
Um, you might notice that the site is acting a bit, well,
possessed this morning, with the content inexplicably centered, the "Digg It" button missing and the "show comments" link going to Digg instead.
I have no earthly idea why this is happening as I have nott knowingly altered my templates in quite a while. Hopefully we can get this cleared up soon, and I apologize for the
unexpected weirdness.
Update: Of course, now that I post this, everything looks fine. Oh well... Tech genius and dear brother
Phin of
Apothegm Designs cleared up the snafu within mere minutes.
Just a plug for him and his partner Sadie in case any of my fellow bloggers are thinking about a blog design, redesign, or platform change: they really
know their stuff.
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"I have no earthly idea why this is happening as I have nott knowingly altered my templates in quite a while. Hopefully we can get this cleared up soon, and I apologize for the unexpected weirdness."
It also added an extra 't' in not, Spooky.
Posted by: Retired Navy at October 11, 2006 11:01 AM (8kQAc)
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October 10, 2006
Confirmed: Blast ''Non-nuclear''
How do I know?
'cause Michael Yon
told me so.
This of course, means my "Divine Strake"
guestimate of earlier this week was correct.
Yeah, even a blind hog can find an acorn every once in a while...
Update: Mary Katharine Ham and
Allahpundit have more.
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Greatest Political Ad Ever
Go see it.
Allah's
got the other one.
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The Other "Blue Dress Moment"
Things just keep getting worse for Bubba.
It was bad enough that his attempts to censor the recent "Road to 9/11" mini-series backfired and instead exposed his incompetence in dealing with al Qaeda, reminding the world that he allowed an attempted
chemical weapons attack on Manhattan to go unchallenged militarily. Now the ripples of North Korea's nuclear (
or not) blast have shown the 1994
Agreed Framework Clinton allowed Jimmy Carter to lead has led us to our present state of affairs. North Korea, a rogue state that has
always sold every weapons system it has ever developed to the highest bidder is
threatening to fire a nuclear-armed missile. Given their history, we might look at this as both nuclear gamesmanship and a product demonstration.
As time wears on and more failures are revealed, William Jefferson Clinton, the charismatic Man From Hope, is proving to be arguably the least competent foreign policy President of the twentieth century.
It must be said that every president since the early 1970s has failed in one way or another in dealing with terrorism. From Nixon and Ford, down through Carter and Reagan, to George H.W. Bush, Americans suffered through a string of terrorist attacks
nearly unanswered.
Bill Clinton, however, established a new low point of inaction. He froze out his CIA Director, never meeting with him in
two years, leading Woolsey to resign in disgust. Even though a new terror network was emerging to confront America directly, Clinton continued to treat the matter as a law enforcement issue. Clinton steadfastly refused to confront terrorism, as even his own top advisor Dick Morris
noted:
The weekly strategy meetings at the White House throughout 1995 and 1996 featured an escalating drumbeat of advice to President Clinton to take decisive steps to crack down on terrorism. The polls gave these ideas a green light. But Clinton hesitated and failed to act, always finding a reason why some other concern was more important.
Clinton's unstated policy ignoring of the growing threat of al Qaeda emboldened them, leading to a plot that ultimately unfolded on the morning of September 11, 2001. Jumping office workers in Manhattan, a flaming facade in the Pentagon, and a rubble-strewn field in Pennsylvania are the legacy of President Clinton's decision to always find "some other concern" instead of acting against an increasingly bold al Qaeda terrorist network.
But what Clinton didn't accomplish against terrorism while he was in office may eventually pale in comparison to his incompetence in allowing rogue states to develop the technology to manufacture nuclear warheads and the weapons systems to deliver them.
On Clinton's watch, China successfully sold a conversion plant to Iran and the gas need to test the uranium enrichment process. In 1996, as Clinton froze out the CIA Director, Iran was
busily constructing the Arak heavy water plant. Iran began the secret uranium enrichment facility at Natanz
in 2000.
During the same time period, North Korea was secretly expanding it's nuclear weapons research and designing long-range multi-stage missiles, even as the gullible Clinton sent Secretary of State Madeline Albright to fulfill her own historical
blue dress moment.
Bill Clinton left office in 2001, leaving us a world safe for terrorism instead of from it, and with two rogue nations developing nuclear weapons programs. Perhaps we cold have known of all of these programs far earlier, had he and Congressional Democrats not
emasculated with constant calls for intelligence agency budget cuts.
Bill Clinton fundamentally misunderstood the threats posed by rouge nations aspiring to nuclear weapons capability and blinded American intelligence agencies that may have exposed them earlier. He fundamentally understood the causes of and how to confront Islamic terrorism.
Clinton's "do nothing" legacy is echoed today by Democratic Senators and Congressmen that rose through the ranks during his presidency. These Senators and Congressmen—Harry Reid and Nancy Pelosi among them—
still hold desperately to the same flawed misconceptions that led us to a point where are today. We now face not one, but two rouge nations on the cusp of being able to provide terrorist organizations with nuclear warheads.
President Clinton's "blue dress moment" with a White House intern led to the President being exposed as a distracted man with weak moral values who lied under oath.
President Clinton’s other "blue dress moment," —sending Madeline Albright to negotiate for a piece of paper that was never honored—now becomes emblematic of his failures on the nuclear proliferation front as well, and may ultimately be a far more damning part of his legacy of charismatic incompetence.
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http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB82/handshake300.jpg
Pictures are just pictures. Leaders shake hands with all kinds of people - left, right, good, evil. Interesting points made, a few of which I agree with.
I think talk is cheap in Washington. Do something or drop it. If you're into the business of freedom-fighting and saving a nation's people from an oppresive regime that starves and murders it's citizens for some small pathetic personal gain by its leader while threatening other countries, North Korea would be a much easier sell to the American people and the world than Iraq ever was or could be. Not to mention an open admission of WMD proliferation.
If that's not enough to invade a country for regime change and Iraq was/is, we have a problem.
Posted by: H! at October 10, 2006 05:05 PM (FUME3)
2
H!,
In some ways true - Kim Jong Il has got to go. But on the other hand, with Japan and China now incensed over NorK, isn't it better to let them handle it? Especially China who openly rebuked NorK yesterday....Stability in the region is crucial to their economics.
The ME is completely different. State sponsors of terrorism with WMD and no other big boys on the block. People who have vowed to take war to the US and actually have (please don't make me list yet again all of the actual attacks that have happened since the early 1990s) An area crucial to our economics. There is a difference. It is simple.
Posted by: Specter at October 11, 2006 07:39 AM (ybfXM)
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North Korean Seppuku?
Can someone please tell me when the firing of an ICBM armed with a nuclear warhead was not universally recognized as an act of war?
North Korea stepped up its threats aimed at Washington, saying it could fire a nuclear[sic] nuclear-tipped missile unless the United States acts to resolve its standoff with Pyongyang, the Yonhap news agency reported Tuesday from Beijing.
Even if Pyongyang is confirmed to have nuclear weapons, experts say it's unlikely the North has a bomb design small and light enough to be mounted atop a missile. Their long-range missile capability also remains in question, after a test rocket in July apparently fizzled out shortly after takeoff.
"We hope the situation will be resolved before an unfortunate incident of us firing a nuclear missile comes," Yonhap quoted an unidentified North Korean official as saying. "That depends on how the U.S. will act."
The official said the nuclear test was "an expression of our intention to face the United States across the negotiating table," reported Yonhap, which didn't say how or where it contacted the official, or why no name was given.
More after I have a chance to think about what this means...
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experts say it's unlikely the North has a bomb design small and light enough to be mounted atop a missile.
Almost 25 years ago, John Phillips designed such a bomb in a few months as a junior year physics project.
Posted by: Purple Avenger at October 10, 2006 08:59 AM (PNnHh)
Posted by: hdw at October 10, 2006 10:07 AM (nA9AR)
3
Are you saying that the missile that fired and failed was an act of war? Or the threat of firing a missile with a nuclear warhead on it's tip is the same as doing it, thus being an act of war?
Claiming to have the technology and ability to launch "an ICBM armed with a nuclear warhead" and actually doing so are two totally different things. Scary stuff going on nonetheless, but I wouldn't call the latest North Korean test "an act of war."
Posted by: H! at October 10, 2006 10:54 AM (FUME3)
4
H!,
Not sure I get your point. Are you just trying to say you don't like the turn of the phrase, or are you supporting NK's right to fire a nuclear tipped missile if they want?
Many now doubt that NK actually has nuclear capability - yet. And we know that the NoDong II was a failure.
However - just say that they had the technology - a nuke warhead, and a missile big enough to hit US territory. When a launch occurs, it takes a few minutes to determine where the bird is going. In many nuclear scenarios counter-launch has to happen early enough to get your own missiles away. In that type of scenario, would a NK launch constitute an act of war? Yes.
But, a few missiles, a few warheards - it would not seem that NK has enough to devastate the US and we could annihilate them in second strike. I suspect that first NK would try on a neighbor. Then you get into who are the allies of the neighbor and what are their capabilities. Japan, China, SK, etc. Now you open a real can of worms. Would that be an act of war? Yes.
What about a shot into the ocean? I don't think anyone would retaliate, but what concerns do we then need to think about with regards to nuclear contamination spreading through the ocean? That impacts quite a few lives. And yes - I know that the US conducted such tests in the early days - but I think you would agree that everybody knows a lot more about the effects now. Back then a lot was speculation....
Posted by: Specter at October 10, 2006 11:22 AM (ybfXM)
5
Specter,
I'm doing neither. I'm just saying that North Korea didn't fire a nuclear-tipped missile at us, so to say that firing an ICBM with a nuclear warhead on it's tip is an act of war is totally agreeable, but not what actually happened.
The "test" I was referring to was the missile launch, not the recent (and apparently failed) nuke test underground.
I was just trying to figure out if the CY was claiming that North Korea had committed an act of war with it's missle test, or was he just stating that by putting a nuke in there, an act of war WOULD be committed... something even I would support.
Posted by: H! at October 10, 2006 04:40 PM (FUME3)
6
Gotcha, thanks for clarifying. This liberal DEM agrees with that 110%.
Posted by: H! at October 10, 2006 05:12 PM (FUME3)
7
Don't worry, Kim, you fire a missile at the US, and I promise you we'll "act to resove [our] standoff" with you.
Of course, you'll be dead when we're finished.
Posted by: Greg D at October 11, 2006 11:58 AM (8viKe)
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NorK Dork Corked
And Bill Gertz agrees with that initial speculation, just 24 short hours later:
U.S. intelligence agencies say, based on preliminary indications, that North Korea did not produce its first nuclear blast yesterday.
U.S. officials, speaking on the condition of anonymity, said that seismic readings show that the conventional high explosives used to create a chain reaction in a plutonium-based device went off, but that the blast's readings were shy of a typical nuclear detonation.
"We're still evaluating the data, and as more data comes in, we hope to develop a clearer picture," said one official familiar with intelligence reports.
"There was a seismic event that registered about 4 on the Richter scale, but it still isn't clear if it was a nuclear test. You can get that kind of seismic reading from high explosives."
It still remains, of course, to see if this assessment is correct. It could have been a faulty nuke, after all.
As ever, the sleepless Allah is
on the case.
Update: Related thoughts at
AoC.
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Who Do You Trust?
According to USAToday's new poll, the pachyderms are toast:
A Capitol Hill sex scandal has reinforced public doubts about Republican leadership and pushed Democrats to a huge lead in the race for control of Congress four weeks before Election Day, the latest USA TODAY/Gallup Poll shows.
Democrats had a 23-point lead over Republicans in every group of people questioned — likely voters, registered voters and adults — on which party's House candidate would get their vote. That's double the lead Republicans had a month before they seized control of Congress in 1994 and the Democrats' largest advantage among registered voters since 1978.
Nearly three in 10 registered voters said their representative doesn't deserve re-election — the highest level since 1994. President Bush's approval rating was 37% in the new poll, down from 44% in a Sept. 15-17 poll. And for the first time since the question was asked in 2002, Democrats did better than Republicans on who would best handle terrorism, 46%-41%.
"It's hard to see how the climate is going to shift dramatically between now and Election Day," said John Pitney, a former GOP aide on Capitol Hill who now teaches at Claremont-McKenna College in California. He said Iraq remains the biggest problem for Republicans: "People just don't like inconclusive wars."
The plummeting GOP ratings in the poll of 1,007 adults, taken Friday through Sunday, come amid a series of events that have given Democrats ammunition to argue that the country needs a new direction.
Ah, the sounds of wishful thinking.
Now, it may very well come to pass that the Republicans have made enough mistakes to finally lose to a feckless Donkey, but I'll be among those surprised if that is the case. As I said in a previous post, "you can't beat something with nothing."
And what, precisely, do Democrats really have to offer the American voter other than "we aren't Republicans?"
If Democrats gain control of Congress, you can flush any pretense of border security down the drain. It will go from weak, to nonexistant.
As for Iraq, forget it: Speaker Pelosi will push to have the troops "redeployed" to some place useful like Guam, and faster than you can say "Rwanda," you'll see a nation of 26 million ripped completely to shreds. Think Iraq is bad with us there now? See what happens to it if the party of "cut and run" takes over and allows bin Laden his victory.
And allow bin Laden's victory they will. The Democrats have already shown they have no stomach for fighting in Iraq, so how long do you really think it would take for them to concoct a storyline saying that since bin Laden isn't in Afghanistan, than we shouldn't be either? Guam's going to get might crowded.
As for Mr. Kim and the NorKs, we've seen what happens when President Bush tried the preferred Democratic solution of multilateral talks. Expect it to get even worse as Dems push the same failed strategies in dealing with Iran. Oh, and kiss you missile defense goodbye.
Taxes? Going up if Democrats have their way.
Jobs? Going down because taxes are going up.
The current record-high stock market? Gone in the mist.
And don't even get me going on the endless poltically-driven investigations that will completely cripple the government. Think two weeks of Foleygate is bad? Try
two years of the same shrill whine as they try to Get Bush.
But hopefuly, that unpleasantness won't come to pass. Between now and November 7, Foleygate will fade, along with the Democratic chance for victory. The Democrats won't win the House, but lose it by six, as I previously mentioned.
Interestingly enough, Scott Elliott's extremely accurate
Election Projection currently has the Elephants taking the House by five (220-215), so I feel my SWAG has some merit. The Senate is closer and currently a dead heat, but once again, I predict that the election will come down to the all-but-forgotten Security Moms (and Dads) on November 7.
If the Democrats can convince them that by withdrawing from Iraq (and Afghanistan, which you know they will cry for next) is in this nation's best interests, and that allowing Iran to develop nuclear weapons uncontested is a smart strategy, then the Republicans deserve to lose.
I happen to think that the American voter is smarter than pollsters give them credit for. You can't beat something with nothing, even when the media is on your side.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
12:11 AM
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As I see it, bring on more and more of these polls announcing a Republican defeat. I'm quite certain that the only poll that matters is the one beind the curtain where people actually make their mark for someone with a D, an R or in some cases and I or L by their name.
CY, if no one else has done it here since the Foley event broke, let me do it:
I am confident that not only will the Republicans not lose seats in the House or Senate, but we (Republicans) will gain seats in both.
We'll see at election time won't we. I could be wrong, but I don't think I am, and I have no problem putting my name on that.
Bring on the polls showing Repubs behind, each one only brings more and more of us back to the voting booth to make a mark by R.
--Jason
Posted by: Jason Coleman at October 10, 2006 01:04 AM (As32a)
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October 09, 2006
NoDong, Little Action
Even as North Korea came under international condemnation today after boasting that it had tested a nuclear device, there were serious doubts about the strength of the weapon.
We have assessed that the explosion in North Korea was a sub-kiloton explosion,” said the intelligence official, speaking on condition of anonymity because of the sensitivity of the issue. He added, “We don’t know, in fact, whether it was a nuclear explosion.” He spoke as intelligence analysts in Washington were in the early stages of assessing the explosion.
New York Times
Note: PhotoShop Jihad on the NorKs.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
02:30 PM
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Did North Korea Call or Bluff?
I speculated last night that the North Korean nuclear test could possibly be "spoofed" by North Korea detonating a massive conventional explosive instead, just as the United States had planned with an operation called "Divine Strake" that was scheduled to take place in Nevada earlier this year using a massive ammonium nitrate bomb of 770 tons (Divine Strake was postponed, but may be rescheduled for 2007).
Some are stating that the seismic data is showing that the yield is even lower than that planned for Divine Strake, around 550 tons. This can be interpreted a couple of different ways, providing that the actual yield was in the range of 550 tons.
(1) The North Korean nuclear test was a fake. North Korea was hoping to get by on a bluff using a massive conventional explosion, hoping that it would be close enough to make the world think they had detonated the real thing.
(2) The North Korean nuclear test was a dud. Several experts are stating the possibility that the North Koreans detonated a shoddily built nuclear warhead that was more or less a dud, not achieving even a twentieth of the power one should expect from a plutonium warhead detonation.
And then there is the seismic data.
This is the seismic wave of a blast in North Korea that corresponds with the time that North Korea claims to have conducted their test, as currently shown on CNN.com.
I'm no seismic expert by any measure and would never claim to be, but does this data look similar to the seismic data of the confirmed simultaneous Indian nuclear tests of May 11, 1998, and a nearby earthquake that I culled from a
Lawrence Livermore Web page?
The confirmed Indian nuclear tests show a massive initial spike, then much less intense aftershocks tapering off relatively quickly when compared to an earthquake. The north Korean blast seems to have ramped up before spiking and settling back down.
To my untrained eye, it appears that the North Korean test didn't act in the same way that the Indian detonation did, going from normal seismic activity to a massive spike before receding. It appears to have ramped up at first, then spiked, then tapered off.
I don't know if experts can easily determine the difference between a fizzled nuclear blast and a conventional detonation for the simple reason that I don't understand the physics involved. I would think, however, that even a partial nuclear dud would not "ramp up" as the North Korean test did, but just go off with much less of a "pop."
I'll turn this back over to the experts, but for now, the more I see, the more I question just how successful this test was. I don't know if it was a fake or a dud, but it certainly doesn't appear to be what we expected from a competently constructed modern nuclear warhead.
Updates: they are coming fast and furious, so hang on.
Josh Manchester, who I just met in person this past weekend and found to be very impressive, has a
couple of
posts I consider must-reads. Allah has compiled continuing breaking news from the beginning of this story on
Hot Air. Start
here and continue on
here. Glenn Reynolds is of course providing roundups and passing out Instalanches
here and
here. Pajamas Media has an on-going thread
here.
Mary Katherine Ham started off
here last night and continues on
today. No word yet on whether or not she's wearing the
hated orange yet.
Wizbang has a roundup going as does another new friend,
Sister Toldjah.
Expect information overload. I'm sure more is on the way.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
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One thing to keep in mind - a nuclear bomb requires an initial explosion to initiate the nuclear reaction. That may explain the 'ramp up' of seizmic activity. The PRK may have simply not known how to make an efficient nuclear device.
Another thing - there are two types of nuclear weapons: fusion (the Atom Bomb) and fission (Hydrogen Bomb). Only six countries— United States, Russia, United Kingdom, People's Republic of China, France, and possibly India—are known to possess hydrogen bombs.(Re wiki entry on Nuclear Weapons)
We would have to pull up seismic data on both types of bombs to see if the PRK profile fits. It may be that the PRK detonated an atom bomb type device and that it failed.
Your analysis does have some merit though - in order for a nuclear device to be efficient there can be no 'ramp up'. The initial explosion has to a) be shaped to direct all explosive energy to the nuclear core (think soccer ball) and b) immense to facilitate the fission/fusion of the nuclear core.
At least thats how my layman's mind understands things
Posted by: Dan Irving at October 09, 2006 12:14 PM (zw8QA)
2
Actually fusion is Hydrogen, and fission is atomic (uranium/plutonium).
However, the seismic activity seems to indicate that a small explosion happened first, followed by a larger one. As you stated, this would not be indicative of a nuclear blast. Possibly conventional explosives in which there was a delay in detonation. 550 tons (as the NKs are quoting) would certainly not be outside the range of normal explosives.
Posted by: R Moore at October 09, 2006 12:29 PM (9kqk9)
3
Got the two mixed up - thanks for catching.
Posted by: Dan Irving at October 09, 2006 12:34 PM (zw8QA)
4
Dan,
Do you have the time-scale for the x-axis of the 1998 graph? If the total duration of the 1998 plot is on the scale of 20-30 hours, then "zooming in" on section around the spike could produce a result consistent with the CNN graph.
Posted by: Andrew at October 09, 2006 12:54 PM (lcE38)
5
Before passing judgement, I'd want to see a labelled horizontal time scale for the two examples to compare with the CNN sample (which shows the North Korean event lasting at least 5 minutes).
I'm suspicious specifically because 9/11 deniers are quite fond of a seismic plot with overcompressed horizontal resolution which makes the WTC 1 and 2 collapse look like it was initiated by an explosion; in reality, the "spike" they show lasted on the order of 10-20 seconds and comes from the debris hitting the ground.
Posted by: Bill at October 09, 2006 01:01 PM (OMC5s)
6
Yes, without a time scale, these data are practically meaningless.
Posted by: Reid at October 09, 2006 01:18 PM (/PnUh)
7
I think the CNN graph might not show what we're all thinking. I think it's raw data that needs to be analyzed before they make a simpler graph. I say this because if you look at the USGS Live Internet Seismic Server, the graphs there make it look like there are nukes going off all over the planet. Tiksi, Russia, looks like it should be a smouldering ruin. I think that graph needs to be professionally interpreted before we can even guess what it actually means.
Posted by: dorkafork at October 09, 2006 01:30 PM (ksDNy)
8
I believe the seismograph trace you have posted here is not related to the N Korean test but rather a 6.0 mag quake between the Philippines and Taiwan. The time of 10am UTC checks out. As you have mentioned, this trace looks very much like a natural earthquake, and apparently it is.
Link to the USGS Page on this quake:
http://earthquake.usgs.gov/eqcenter/recenteqsww/Quakes/ustqag.php#details
Posted by: GA Dean at October 09, 2006 01:32 PM (TDqzp)
9
Just looking at the plot of the NK event, the "ramp up" looks to have started a full 3-4 minutes before the most severe shocks. I've heard mixed reports that it was an underground detonation. Could it be that the rampup was a large conventional or fizzling nuke that caused a more severe subterrainian collapse?
Posted by: Will at October 09, 2006 01:39 PM (SOx9v)
10
Actually, that seismograph is related to the test. The USGS has a list of recent earthquakes. Number 2 is the NK test, and there's a link to the very same graph, which is being updated.
Looking at it more, I think it is showing up on multiple stations' graphs. The labelling on the vertical axis threw me, I thought it was an hourly graph, and apparently it is not.
Posted by: dorkafork at October 09, 2006 01:41 PM (ksDNy)
11
Not only is it possible to fake an underground nuclear detonation, the United States actually did it on 22 September, 1993 as part of a proliferation detection proof of concept. The source was 1.3-kiloton of chemical explosive 400 meters underground. It produced a 4.1 Richter Earthquake (USGS catalog query may take a moment to load). I'm not a physicist or anything but I wonder what the seismograph comparison between the two looks like.
Posted by: D.B.R. at October 09, 2006 01:44 PM (EPD1h)
12
The USGS page I linked to lists an earthquake in NK and 3 others in the Phillipines. So the smaller spike could be from that earthquake (those earthquakes?).
Posted by: dorkafork at October 09, 2006 01:51 PM (ksDNy)
13
That'd be "them earthquakes" brother.
Posted by: Clem at October 09, 2006 02:05 PM (/PnUh)
14
The seismograph linked above simulates a paper record loaded on a drum. It lists time in hours along the vertical scale and time in minutes along the horizontal scale. The line represents one station (Incheon) over a 24 hour period. As the drum rotates the line advances. Things start looking shakey at ~10:06am if I'm reading it right and the time has been set right.
Posted by: D.B.R. at October 09, 2006 02:09 PM (EPD1h)
15
Some thoughts:
I'm as fascinated by the labels on the x-axis of the displayed seismograph output as by the event data. The pre-printed vertical bars seem to indicate 10 min. intervals. I'm going to assume this is not correct as it would make the "foreshock" trace about 4 min. in duration and the main shock event better than 5 min. - both numbers being absurd in terms of explosion mechanics. 10 millisecond intervals I would believe.
Dan is correct that any kind of fission bomb requires an initiating chemical explosive. Plutonium bombs require what are called "high-brisance" explosives. These are very fast-burning explosives whose detonation wave moves at 5 or more miles per sec. Given that the relevant parts of a plutonium-based weapon core are probably less than a foot across, these explosives do their jobs in microseconds. Then the really big bang happens and that only takes microseconds to go to completion too.
Hence the energy vs. time curve exemplified by the Indian nuke test data shown. On the time scale used by seismographs, the relatively puny energy release of the initiating chemical explosive trigger is swamped by the enormously greater energy release of the main explosion. Both taken together happen too fast for a typical seismograph to show more than one really tall trace covering the interval during which the bomb is actually going off. Everything after that is fracture shocks from the expanding sphere of engery ripping through the native rock and then rebound shocks as the distrurbed strata are hit with reflected portions of the bomb's energy bouncing back toward the origin point or moving at some other refraction/reflection-determined angle in the general vicinity. Nukes are rude and noisy damned things.
The data for the NORK "test" shows a definite precursor event of relatively brief duration that stands out fairly well from the main shock and shows significant decay, in its own right, before the main shock really gets going. The main shock is also rather wide for a nuclear blast (assuming that those vertical bars on the graph really are on 10 msec. centers). Such a distribution of energy seems to me to better fit a large conventional explosion of a comparatively slow, low-brisance compound such as ANFO (ammonium nitrate-fuel oil). ANFO needs to be set off by a small high-brisance charge and then does a relatively leisurely job of exploding itself the rest of the way. ANFO is cheap, safe to handle and is routinely used in multi-ton lots by the mining and construction industries of all nations so the ability of the NORKS to stack up 500+ tons of the stuff in one place is no stretch.
This analysis is far from definitive. The main energy release just might be a fizzled or partially-fizzled plutonium implosion weapon, though the magnitude-vs-time thing for the main shock looks too pokey.
If it was an attempt at a plutonium implosion detonation that failed to entirely work, the interesting question is why the NORKs would risk possible failure when they could - or so we have assumed - just do a comparatively slam-dunk test of a gun-type uranium device with much less likelihood of a glitch. Political point gets made either way, right?
The only answer that seems plausible is that the NORKs are not, in fact, anywhere near as far along with their uranium enrichment program as we have been lead to believe. Uranium bombs are comparatively easy to make, but highly-enriched uranium is not easy to make. Plutonium is easy to make, but the bombs that use it are much tougher to fabricate than those based on uranium.
Assuming an at least partial fizzle result here might well indicate the NORKs haven't really mastered the hard parts of building either kind of fission bomb yet. I gotta figure they would have done a U-235 bomb if they had the stuff to make one - ergo, they don't. Plute, they have, but perhaps they haven't mastered the construction of the necessay "match" to light it.
If true, these circumstances would give us the luxury of more time in hand when dealing with the NORK regime as they would not, in fact, yet constitute an established nuclear threat on even the scale of the immediate post-WW2 U.S. If the now-inevitable sanctions can be put in place fast and hard enough, we and our allies may be able to successfuly implode the NORK regime before the regime can successfully implode its plutonium.
Putting on my tin-foil hat now, it is at least conceivable that the NORKs deliberately fizzled a plutonium bomb in order to fake us into making exactly the analysis I just sketched out. In that case, they must know sanctions are coming. If there is some plan afoot to use already secretly extant uranium bombs in some kind of near-term strike on the U.S. homeland or on U.S. interests elsewhere in the world - or to covertly assist their de facto Iranian allies in doing either or both - the advantage of the misdirection might just outweigh the sanctions consequences in the mind of a not-conventionally-rational Kim and/or Ahmedinejad if the nuclear sucker punch can be delivered soon enough. I think such a plan unlikely unless Kim has already come to the conclusion that his rule is doomed fairly soon even if the U.S. does little or nothing to push it over. In such a case, he might just figure it makes sense to (mixed metaphor alert) "go all in" on a Hail Mary play.
Given the miserable state of the non-technical parts of the U.S. intelligence gathering apparatus these days, I suspect we cannot avail ourselves of the necessary data from within North Korea to accurately discriminate between these possible near-future scenarios. The most important function of an intelligence service is to effectively gauge the actual nature of a threat so that one does not have to entertain genuinely paranoid-seeming hypotheses simply because they do not violate the laws of physics and cannot be definitively ruled out based on objectively verifiable evidence. I have no confidence the CIA, et al, are able to do this where the NORKs are concerned.
Posted by: Dick Eagleson at October 09, 2006 02:24 PM (qxgMP)
16
Dick,
Please consider:
Seismic waves don't all travel at the same speed, but the seismograph records both types (Compressional and Shear) on one needle. The rate of speed is difference between the faster and slower waves is around 8 km/second. In this case this is about a minute difference between arrival times given the approximate distance between the event and the station of 470 km. I would not assume that the horizontal scale records milliseconds.
Posted by: D.B.R at October 09, 2006 03:02 PM (EPD1h)
17
Dan Irving,
The time from explosive detonation to nuclear explosion is at most two or three milliseconds. Seismic recorders can at best discriminate on to 50 to 100 millisecond basis.
On top of that the explosive start is caused by at most 100 lbs of explosive. i.e. lost in the noise level.
Posted by: M. Simon at October 09, 2006 03:20 PM (Axh6f)
18
The event shown on the chart is the M 6.0 that occurred at 10:01:45 UTC, at a depth of 10 km, under the ocean in the Philippine Island Region. The location of the sensor that recorded the event is Inchon, South Korea.
The event in North Korea occurred at 01:35:27 (about 8 hours 25 minutes earlier).
The seismogram does NOT protray the North Korean test.
You can see more information at the following site
http://earthquake.usgs.gov/eqcenter/recenteqsww/Quakes/quakes_all.php
Posted by: Bob hancock at October 09, 2006 03:43 PM (UbYTu)
19
Okay, so now I am confused. The Phillipine Earthquake hit the Incheon station at 10:05:53.33 UTC which fits great. The nKorea event was at 01:35:27 UTC why does that time not show anything? If its not depicted, why not, or am I misreading the chart? The Phillipine earthquake was much, much larger but I find it hard to believe a 4.1 quake wouldn't show up at incheon.
Posted by: D.B.R. at October 09, 2006 04:35 PM (EPD1h)
20
D.B.R.: The vertical timescale shows one line per hour, and the horizontal timescale on the image runs from minute 00 to maybe minute 32 or 33 or so, so it looks like the right half of the plot was cropped -- an event starting at at 01:35 would have been just to the right of the right edge of the image.
Posted by: Bill at October 09, 2006 05:34 PM (OMC5s)
21
Bill: I've been looking at the full plot from the USGS site not the cropped image above. It does not show any visible activity on the full live plot: same for the seismograms from Hawaii and Japan. In another couple of hours the plot will scroll past 01:35:27 UTC 9 Oct so if anyone is interested they should capture it now. I thought that the time on the machine might be off but as Bob Hancock pointed out the big event matches the Phillipine Earthquake.
Posted by: D.B.R. at October 09, 2006 06:48 PM (iI//A)
22
The time on all seismometers is in GMT and as several comments have mentioned the time on the seismogram above is wrong. I looked at data right after it was reported. The expected activity was not there. I don't know what went on, but I am very skeptical of the whole situation.
Posted by: Scott B at October 09, 2006 10:46 PM (60kmd)
23
Scott B: I think the USGS is showing the event in UTC which can be slightly different than GMT but equal at the scale shown on these seismograms (less than a pixel difference). Like you pointed out at your link the explosion does not appear when it should. Very odd, indeed.
Posted by: D.B.R. at October 10, 2006 02:30 AM (EPD1h)
24
As Scott B has pointed out, this particuar seismogram did not detect the NK test explosion, although it does cover the time period of the test. There are likely two reasons. First, this was a small event, as has been reported from various authorities. Secondly, these instruments are "tuned", if you will, to detect different sorts of events. Natural earthquakes, especially the large ones, produce some *very* low-frequency signals, and instruments intended for detecting large quakes at a distance will filter out the high-frequency signal to reduce noise. Other instruments are set to detect higher frequency signals, but there is more noise to handle there. What the USGS is publishing on the web are the traces of instruments designed to detect large quakes worldwide, no doubt on the assumption that this is more interesting to a US and world audience.
The usual rule of thumb is that you measure large quakes at a distance but the small stuff from local instruments. In this case we are trying to detect a small event from a distance, which is difficult, and probably why we are being told it will take some days of analysis to get a solid determination.
About the only thing we can say, based on the publicly available data, is that this was not a big bomb. I remember watching the seismic signals from US tests in the 70's as they arrived (very exciting to have a pre-announced earthquake to measure.) They were very easy to spot.
Posted by: GA Dean at October 10, 2006 12:06 PM (TDqzp)
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North Korea Detonates Nuke, Enters Refractory Period
Developing:
North Korea said Monday it has performed its first-ever nuclear weapons test, which would confirm that the country has a working atomic bomb as it has long claimed.
The country's official Korean Central News Agency said the underground test was performed successfully "with indigenous wisdom and technology 100 percent," and that no radioactive material leaked from that test site.
"It marks a historic event as it greatly encouraged and pleased the (Korean People's Army) and people that have wished to have powerful self-reliant defense capability," KCNA said. "It will contribute to defending the peace and stability on the Korean Peninsula and in the area around it."
I suspect that we'll find out that this was a real test of a small nuclear warhead, but I would not be surprised in the least to find out that this was a large conventional blast like we had planned earlier this year in Nevada in an operation named "
Divine Strake."
Time will tell, but I think North Korea miscalculated. They don' t seem to have any other threats to issue now that they've test-fired both missiles and warheads in the past year. They've essentially fired out with everything they have, and I don't see that they have anything with which to negotiate now.
Bad dictator. Dumb move.
Update: MKH and
Allah are all over this. Back to my sick bed I go...
Update: Josh Manchester has a must-read analysis of the situation in his TCS Daily article, "
Stalking the Hermit."
Update: Captain Ed
ain't buying it. Not yet, anyway.
Update: Pushing their luck: Norks say they might
test another. This could escalate quickly, both diplomatically and perhaps even militarily. Stay tuned...
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
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maybe related
wikipedia sez a 4.0 is comparable to a 1 kiloton blast
Posted by: mooslime at October 09, 2006 02:01 AM (A4xPG)
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October 08, 2006
Carolina FreedomNet Wrap-up
I'm a bit under the weather now and intend to crawl back in bed momentarily, but I wanted to take a second to thank the John Locke Foundation for inviting me to participate on a panel at Carolina Freedomnet 2006.
While I've spent a lot of time with fellow bloggers via email and the occasional phone call, FreedomNet was the first time I actually got to meet some of my fellow bloggers in person, and I can't tell you how nice they all are.
I got in Friday night and caught up with Jon Ham of John Locke, Kay Ham (Jon's wife, Mary Katharine's mom, great lady), Abby Misemer and Missy Nurrenbrock, sisters who came up all the way from Florida for the conference, Kory Swanson of John Locke, and another blogger you
might just have heard of, Scott Johnson of
Powerline. We went dinner in one of the excellent Koury Convention Center restaurants, and I was amazed at just how well informed Abby and Missy were. I think they knew Powerline as well as Scott did, and he was visibly impressed.
After dinner we went back to a suite and I got to meet my fellow panelists,
Sister Toldjah, Lorie Byrd of
Wizbang!, Scott Elliott of
Election Projection, and Josh Manchester of
The Adventures of Chester. It was interesting that these folks, many of whom I've been reading for a long time, were quite a bit like I expected them to be.
Your personality really does come out in your blogging, I guess.
We had a delightful, wide-ranging discussion that was just, well,
cool. I felt right at home. The fashionably late
Ms. Ham joined us after 10:30-ish when her flight got in. We palled around a while, and I think we decided we needed to kidnap
Allah and take him to a NASCAR race to expand his cultural horizons, but we need to work out the details.
This was my first conference panel since college and so I was a little nervous, but I finally managed to drop-off around 2:00 AM.
I awoke the next morning to a call from my brother (phin of
phin's blog, Phineas G of
Agent Bedhead, and half of the
Apothegm Designs blog design masters) saying that he's gotten a wild hair and registered for the conference at 4:15 AM and had driven up and was standing in the lobby. I was touched, to put it mildly, that he took the time out of his insanely busy schedule to make the trip.
I was on the first panel with Lorie Byrd, Sister Toldjah and Sam Heib of
Sam's Notes, who I unfortunately didn't get to spend any time with beforehand, but who was quite intelligent and well-spoken on the panel.
While we were going there was a minor disturbance as a very rude gentleman made a loud and obnoxious exit. I found out later that the scruffy Garrison Keillor look-alike was apparently attempting to drum up traffic for his own blog. Personally, I'd suggest compelling content instead of temper tantrums, but to each his own. I'd tell you more about what we said during our panel discussion, but it all went by in a blur.
Bonus: Bruce of
GayPatriot was sitting in the front row, which was something we found out just before our panel ended. It was neat to get a chance to meet him.
Mary Katharine Ham was the only blogger whose work I was familiar with on the second panel prior to the conference, but that will change quickly. I was very impressed with Josh Manchester and Scott Elliott from talking with them some the night before, listening to them during the panel discussion, and talking with them after the conference was over. As they are all local, I'm going to try to make an effort to keep in touch. Jeff Taylor, who writes for Reason and Hit & Run in addition to the
Meck Deck, was extremely bright as well.
Lunch was good (ever had a blue potato before? I hadn't, but it was good), and the Scot Johnson gave the keynote address, "The 61st Minute: Inside the Eye of Hurricane Dan," which of course was about the "September Surprise" orchestrated by CBS News in which they allowed themselves to be duped into using fake Texas Air National Guard records to support a story they wanted to be true.
I knew the story of Johnson's "
The sixty-first minute" of course, as do almost all bloggers. It is without a doubt the most famous single blog post written so far, one that shredded the reputation of a a news network and their top reporters and producers as willing political partisans. Hearing Scott recount his feelings that morning and throughout the afternoon as experts began to help him build the case against CBS News was riveting, even though I knew the basics of the story before.
In short, Carolina Freedomnet 2006 was an excellent experience all the way around, and I cannot thank the staff of the
John Locke Foundation enough for their hospitality. I can't wait to do it again next year.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
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Now that I've met you and found your blog, I feel like I've just gotten a new Christmas toy - I can't wait to play with it every day. I just hope I don't break it. I can't break your blog, can I?
Seriously, it was great meeting you, and I hope all the FreedomNetters can spend many more good times together in the future.
Posted by: Scott Elliott at October 10, 2006 01:17 AM (7jw2G)
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