Confederate Yankee
October 23, 2006
Of Monsters and Mouse-Guns
The M16/M4 family assault rifles have served the U.S. military for longer than I've been alive, and during that 39-year run, it has always been fielded with a 5.56mm NATO catridge. The success of the.22-caliber centerfire round relies almost totally upon velocity, and the short-barreled M4 carbine issued to many of our troops today means that they are equipped with a weapon and cartridge combination that places their lives at risk.
Nowhere in recent memory was anecdotal evidence more apparent than in Michael Yon's widely read dispatch,
Gates of Fire, where CSM Robert Prosser engaged a terrorist in Mosul at point-blank range after LTC Eric Kurilla was shot in a storefront ambush:
Prosser ran around the corner, passed the two young soldiers who were crouched low, then by me and right to the shop, where he started firing at men inside.
A man came forward, trying to shoot Kurilla with a pistol, apparently realizing his only escape was by fighting his way out, or dying in the process. Kurilla was aiming at the doorway waiting for him to come out. Had Prosser not come at that precise moment, who knows what the outcome might have been.
Prosser shot the man at least four times with his M4 rifle. But the American M4 rifles are weak - after Prosser landed three nearly point blank shots in the man’s abdomen, splattering a testicle with a fourth, the man just staggered back, regrouped and tried to shoot Prosser.
Prosser’s M4 carbine failed to seriously incapacitate the terrorist even after he was shot with four 5.56 NATO rounds at almost contact range. Prosser ended up capturing the terrorist after intense hand-to-hand combat. The terrorist survived his wounds.
This incident, written about fourteen months ago, immediately came to mind when I spoke last week with another soldier that had been based in Mosul and Ramadi during his latest tour. The last insurgent he shot took two 5.56 NATO rounds from an M4 in the chest, and the terrorist didn't go down. It took a third round through the head to kill him.
These are not the only "failure to stop" stories I've heard about regarding the 5.56 NATO round, and as the shorter-barreled M4 variant becomes more common through the military, these stories most assuredly won't be the last. I'd like to see the statistics of those American soldiers killed or wounded by those insurgents and terrorists that had already taken one or more hits to the torso, but I imagine that even if the military did maintain such statistics, they would probably be classified.
We know that the M4 does not have a long-enough barrel (14.5") to generate the velocities needed for 5.56 NATO cartridges designed for peak velocities in the 20" barrel of the M16. We also know that future assault weapons programs like the
XM8 (with an even shorter 12.5" barrel) have been shelved. So does this mean that American soldiers are destined to use under-performing weapons for the time to come?
A handful of weaponsmiths are hoping to develop larger-diameter cartridges that will be able met the needs of American soldiers, among these cartridges being the
6.8 SPC and the
6.5 Grendel.
These cartridges are designed to fit existing 5.56 NATO-compatible weapons systems, meaning that these new and more powerful cartridges could be retrofitted to existing M16s/M4s with a minimum of modifications (new upper receiver, barrel, magazines, etc). That said, with the historically sloth-like speed of the military procurement system, expect our soldiers to be fielding "under-gunned" 5.56 NATO-chambered M4s for a long-time to come.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
02:59 PM
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1
the problem with is that bay law we have to use full meltel jacket ammo witch at close range just gose through a man.At the range in the incadent abouve the soluder should have used his pistol
Posted by: Richard Kammler at October 23, 2006 03:26 PM (EblDJ)
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Good read, good links. I hope this thread doesn't devolve into a, "AK-47s are better than M-16s because this one time, I was playing CounterStrike..."
Posted by: BohicaTwentyTwo at October 23, 2006 03:42 PM (oC8nQ)
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The issue is much less that a short barreled rifle does not allow the round to get to as high a velocity as a longer rifle, and much more that as Richard Kammler pointed out our military uses full metal jacket rounds. A full metal jacket round does not significantly expand when it hits a body which means it will not transfer much of its energy into the body.
RK said that a pistol might have been more effective. Our military carries 9 mm pistols (mostly), as do many police forces here in the USA. While the 9 mm is somewhat larger than the 222 round used in the M4 (0.3" instead of 0.22") it has much less power behind it. Yet many of our police forces find it satisfactory and with the right ammo it gives about 80% one shot stops. That right ammo, however, is hollow-point. This is what anti-gunners love to call "dum-dum" bullets, and our military is not allowed to use such ammo.
Hollow point bullets expand drastically when they hit the body, and transfer most of the energy of the bullet into the body. This is why someone hit by such a round has a small entrance hole but a very large area of damage inside the body. By contrast full metal jacket rounds such as our military uses are much more likely to punch a small hole right through the body, and do little damage to any part of the body not in the direct path of the bullet.
That is the main reason the M4 rounds in the incident you mention failed to stop the terrorist. Unless a lucky shot hit an organ that would cause instant incapacitation, this is what happens when full metal jacket rounds are used.
Most of our police forces have learned this lession, but our military has not yet learned it (or is afraid to face up to the anti-gun crowd for using effective rounds).
Posted by: InformedChristian at October 23, 2006 05:25 PM (oLizW)
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InformedChristian Thank you for clarifying my post for me some times I foget to make all my thoughts into words.
Posted by: Richard Kammler at October 23, 2006 06:53 PM (EblDJ)
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So, here's acomment from the past. I was a marine & initially trained on the 7.62mm M-14, a modernized M1. In Vietnam, with the 20" M-16, we had the same problem. We did everything we could to ditch the M16 & use an M14 if we could.
This issue came up a hundred years ago in the Phillipine Insurrection (against Muslim terrorists, as you may recall). The Krag-Jorgenson rifle & .38 cal revolver lacked stopping power & the Moros did not go down. Enter John Browning; he designed the M1911 .45 cal automatic & the .30 cal MG. The Springfield Arsenal contributed the M1903 .30 cal rifle. Amazing how we must re-learn the same lessons.
By the way, what happened to the M8? That design seems robust & chambered in a 6.8mm or 7mm would be quite a weapon.
Posted by: DaSarge at October 23, 2006 11:07 PM (6wTzX)
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IC,
Military units cannot use hollowpoint or softpoint ammunition due to treaty obligations (1899 Huage Declaration) more than 100 years old, that to my knowledge, have not been breached by any nation's convenional military forces.
DS,
Not sure what stopped the XM8 program, but I would't be surprised if the underperformance of the 5.56 NATO in the short-bareled M4 might have them reconsidering all of their options.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at October 24, 2006 01:22 AM (HcgFD)
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All the standard small arms issued to US troops have inadequate stopping power. The lack of stopping power of the 5.56mm was justified by the claim that the bullet was understabilized and would tumble after impact causing a major wound. Then the gun was redesigned to stablize the bullet. The round is universally banned in the United States for deer hunting as being inadequate to humanely kill game. It is also inadequate as a close range round. Not only is it the standard round for the infantry rifle but also for the squad machine gun, SAW.
The 9mm was supposedly adopted to be compatible with NATO. Many ex-military, myself included, think that it was adopted when the Army's population of females began to grow, particularly in the non-combat arms. It was felt that the 9mm was easier to handle than the reliable action and unquestioned stopping power of the .45 Cal Colt Auto. As an old marine supposedly said, any caliber of pistol will do as long as the first number is 4!
The .40 cal and .45 cal are rapidly taking over the law enforcement market because of their proven stopping power against druggies. I suspect that Jihadists are in the same category of difficulty to stop. The 9mm is only adequate with specialized self defense ammo that the US will not issue for political reasons.
For a time it looked like the 6.8mm would be adopted with the new rifle being evaluated. Not any more. Also, there was an RFP that asked for bids on 450,000 .45 cal pistols. RFP was cancelled.
A small number of M-14's have been issued to sniper teams but that is not the answer. Nor is the M5. It just does not have the power. It can easily be converted to 6.8mm but the Army is not interested in spending the money!
Posted by: BobQne at October 24, 2006 12:51 PM (iZnm5)
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I never understood the humanity of full metal jacket rounds. I suppose people felt that having chunks of thier buddies blown all over them was a negative, a feeling I have for bullets that go through both of us.
Hollow point or soft-tipped rounds won't go through armor as well (or walls, brush, etc). I would think as we fight in more civilian populated areas, we would prefer the gore to the collatoral damage.
I couldn't my hands on any 240B in Iraq. We were a medical unit running our own resupply convoys. We had M2's and M249s. The 240B is a 7.62 round and was referred to as the 'poor man's 50 cal.' The problem I had was the 249 had a reputation that it would not penetrate an engine as a 50 or 240 could. As a result, during an escalation of force, my instructions to troops if a vehicle did not stop were to fire into the round in front of the vehicle, fire into the engine, and then put three rounds 18 inches behind the steering wheel.
This entire escalation takes place in less than 6 seconds and is really borne out of the Geneva Convention. The escalation gives us a chance to determine the status of a non-uniformed individual without lighting up civilians.
What they were discovering (my unit never had to fire into a vehicle so we discovered nothing other than we really wanted 240's)was that in the second phase, the 249 rounds would bounce off the engine and start killing folks in the passenger compartment.
"Where were you hit, son?"
"Somewhere between Geneva and the Hague, sir!"
Posted by: y7 at October 24, 2006 01:15 PM (yYph9)
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The Hague Conventions prohibition on the use of expanding projectiles does not apply in Iraq (or in any action against terrorists) since combat is not occuring between two signatories to the Convention. American forces are serving with the express permission of the lawful government of Iraq, it is an internal state matter and, just like domestic law enforcement here, the US and Iraq forces could legally employ non FMJ rounds.
Posted by: ThomasD at October 24, 2006 04:33 PM (HDgen)
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"The .40 cal and .45 cal are rapidly taking over the law enforcement market because of their proven stopping power against druggies. I suspect that Jihadists are in the same category of difficulty to stop." BobQne
Exactly. In the Phillipine Insurrection, the Moros would not go down despite being repeatedly hit. In the RVN, my first platoon sergeant carried a Thompson. He had more stopping power than all the M-16's in my fire team. More than once I saw an officer drop his M-16 & use his M1911.
We have a great military these days. Why is this such a problem?
Posted by: DaSarge at October 24, 2006 07:22 PM (4aC9r)
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There's another factor not yet mentioned here, even by vets of the current conflict-
The Mk262 round was developed precisely to address the problem with carbines firing the NATO load.
The NATO load, IMO, is the problem. We should just tell NATO to get fucked, and let the morons in Brussels catch up to ourselves and Israel. As also mentioned, we aren't fighting another Geneva signator- so bring on the BTHPs.
Fragmentation is what makes the 5.56 round deadly- velocities needed to fragment an FMJ projectile are not attained from a barrel of less than 20". The Mk262 was developed to provide reliable fragmentation (read: energy transfer) out to 300 yards, which is well beyond the majority of engagements experienced by combat teams in Iraq, from the barrels currently fielded by infantrymen ranging down to 10.5".
The purpose of the 6.5/6.8 rounds currently under development is to provide a platform which could conceivably be adapted to not only anti-personnel, but also certain anti-materiel and sniping purposes without requiring the use of a specialized sniping weapon.
Posted by: Darth Bacon at October 26, 2006 05:03 AM (6b/eF)
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When Narrative is More Important than Reality
Pat Tillman, a former NFL safety with the Arizona Cardinals, quit the NFL in May of 2002 and joined the Army eight months after the September 11, 2001 terrorist attacks. He enlisted along with his brother Kevin Tillman, who gave up his own chance to play professional baseball. Both brothers excelled in the Army and were assigned to the 75th Ranger Regiment, and saw duty in Iraq and Afghanistan. Pat Tillman was killed by "friendly fire" in Afghanistan on April 22, 2004.
I thank the Tillmans for their service in the American military. They both gave up potential fame and fortune to serve our country, something that is increasingly rare among celebrities of this age. They put America first, and their own dreams and ambitions second. I was touched by their personal sacrifice, and felt sorrow when I learned that Pat Tillman had given his life for his nation.
Kevin Tillman has since left the U.S. Military, and on October 19,
published an article remembering his brother and condemning U.S foreign policy towards combating terrorism.
When you read his article you can feel the frustration and anger Kevin Tillman feels, no doubt due to his own experiences as a soldier and as someone who has experienced direct personal loss as result of the War on Terror. That does not excuse him, however, from using his position of what Maureen Dowd called "absolute moral authority" when applying it to Cindy Sheehan, to spread unsupported hyperbole, innuendo, and half-truths.
Tillman repeats common canards of the anti-war left, but his own military service does not make for him an unassailable shield, nor does restating them make these tired conventions any more true. Saddam Hussein's Iraq did,
without any doubt at all, harbor terrorists. We know the most famous of them by name, including Abu Nidal, Abu Abbas, and Abdul Rahman Yasin. They all killed Americans, and they all lived as Saddam's guests. Yasin was the man who built the 1993 World Trade Center bomb
laced with sodium cyanide, the first and so far only attempted chemical weapons attack on American civilians.
Only those on the anti-war left ever (purposefully) misstated that Iraq was involved with the terrorist attacks of September 11, and only the anti-war left ever stated that Saddam's Iraq received uranium from Niger. The Bush Adminstration did not hold those positions. An honest accounting would show that the United States invaded Iraq not because of any involvement with September 11, but because September 11 made us realize how much of a threat Saddam's Iraq could be. Saddam's Iraq were behind previous terror attacks against U. S. targets, and retained the know-how to reconstitute both biological and chemical weapons programs.
Tillman's diatribe is dramatized hyperbole, and some of his commentary is purposefully erroneous and obtuse.
His statement that the suspension of
habeus corpus has even occurred is an
outright falsehood; no foreign soldier in any war in this nation’s history has ever had
habeus corpus rights, and no American civilian is threatened by the Military Commissions Act, which applies only to "alien unlawful enemy combatants"... foreign terrorists.
And yet, Kevin Tillman does provide one unassailable truth in his diatribe, when he stated that, "Somehow a narrative is more important than reality."
His narrative—devoid of concrete facts, long on assertion, hyperbole, and emotional appeal—is just that kind of narrative.
Kevin Tillman purposefully misstates why we went to war in Iraq, even conflating the insurgency and the current sectarian violence as a reason for invasion, and he fundamentally misunderstands—or perhaps avoids—recognizing the essential fact that al Qaeda and terrorist-supporting states such as Syria and Iran have decided to make Iraq the
central front in the War on Terror.
Like it or not, Iraq is where the terrorsits are, partially due to our actions, but also due to the emphasis terrorists and their supporters have poured into winning in Iraq.
This leftist anti-war narrative relies on the misguided belief that if we withdraw from Iraq, that somehow, terrorists would cease trying to attack and kill American civilians. That misguided position of disengagement should have died when we were attacked on September 11, 2001, long before we ever invaded Iraq or Afghanistan.
Islamic terrorists have stated time and again the intention to come after us, no matter what we do, and our past withdrawals have only served to embolden them.
It's too bad Kevin Tillman couldn't work that one over-arching and essential fact into his narrative.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
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Since no less an authority than Maureen Dowd concedes that Kevin Tillman speaks from a platform of "absolute moral authority" that means that she must also concede that every brother, sister, parent and child of a soldier who has given his life in the war on terror also speaks from that same platform. It's not just the leftists that are alloted the moral high ground. Also doesn't liberalism deny that there are any moral absolutes - oh that's right it's only when we're talking about abortion, profiling, etc.
Posted by: Doc at October 23, 2006 01:38 PM (c1Kr9)
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thank goodness that some clear thinking patriot named Roy left this comment under the KT article at "truth"dig.
thanks Roy whoever you are!!!
Comment #32122 by Roy on 10/22 at 10:10 am
I appreciate your service to your country by joining the armed forces with your brother. The handling of your brother’s death was mismanaged, no question about that. However, your nobleness in joining the armed forces came with a commitment on your part, and you don’t have the luxury of picking or choosing your duty assignments. You can personally agree or disagree, but you knew that when you signed on the dotted line, you, like every other soldier, serve at the pleasure of the commander in chief. Did it not cross your mind when you signed on that you were going to end up in the middle east following 9/11? I mean, if you felt so strongly that being sent to Iraq to fight was so wrong, and so illegal, and so immoral, why didn’t you stand on your principles and just walk away and face the consequences?
The pot shots you take at the elected leaders of your own country after the fact is striking, and your choice of verbage speaks to your own personal hatred of your own government. I just wonder if the situation on the ground were different right now if you would be so overly critical and paint our leaders as “criminals.”
Your “paid for” president bashing story published here within this web site discredits you personally, and your otherwise noble service. You have managed to turn yourself into just another left wing bomb thrower with your hypocritcal diatribe by “breaking your silence.” You do a disservice sir to the men and women continuing to serve in our armed forces in the middle east. The difference between you, and the men who served in WW II, is the veteran returning home from Iwo Jima, no matter what his personal inner feelings might have been, would not take money in return for spewing venom about the mission he was tasked with undertaking.
Posted by: DLJ at October 23, 2006 02:47 PM (TQlCO)
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Considering that Abu Nidal was quite probably executed by Iraqi security, and considering also that no one in the American intelligence community has ever asserted that Abdul Yasin was operating on behalf of Iraq (no matter what your rigorous research on Wikipedia and Answers,com might suggest), you're left with the fantastic claim that Leon Klinghoffer's 1985 murder somehow helps to validate this abjectly stupid war.
As for the claim that Iraq was tied to the September 11 attacks, I wish I knew what to tell you here, but you're absolutely off your nut if you think that only the "anti-war left" believed that's what supporters of the war were doing. The Weekly Standard's Stephen Hayes has been screaming incoherently about this very connection for years now (to no avail), more or less parroting claims made by Laurie Mylroie and Douglas Feith (from whom Hayes apparently gets most of his "intelligence" tips).
And finally, as for "withdrawals" -- or "redeployments," which you seem to consider to be the same thing -- how "emboldened" must the terrorists have been when the US shifted critical assets from Afghanistan to Iraq in preparation for this glorious struggle on behalf of Leon Klinghoffer's memory?
Posted by: d at October 23, 2006 08:59 PM (LHK5X)
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To be fair, it's got to be difficult when the battle group he was assigned with was the one providing the 'friendly fire' that killed his brother. FUBAR comes to mind, and understandable that he would project incompentence experienced in the field throughout military command.
Posted by: bains at October 24, 2006 01:11 AM (u78xz)
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I'm confused.
Let me see if I can understand what you're saying. Iran and Syria made America invade Iraq so that it would become the central front in the War on Terror?
But then why did you say last year;
So much for al-Zaraqawi being "the greatest" if he has to kidnap and drug people to carry out suicide attacks. It seems that the seemingly inexhaustible supply of willing suicide bombers that we westerners have come to fear is exhaustible after all. Some might even be willing to think that this validates the Bush/Rumsfeld "flypaper" strategy.
So were the Iranian and Syrians in on the flypaper thing? Is is good or bad that Iraq in a terrorists cause, recruitment and training ground?
Also how did we anti-war liberals get Bush to talk about Niger yellowcake in the SoU speech?
Dick Cheney said:
RUSSERT: The plane on the ground in Iraq used to train non-Iraqi hijackers.
Do you still believe there is no evidence that Iraq was involved in September 11?
CHENEY: Well, what we now have that's developed since you and I last talked, Tim, of course, was that report that's been pretty well confirmed, that he did go to Prague and he did meet with a senior official of the Iraqi intelligence service in Czechoslovakia last April, several months before the attack.
Why do you help cover the lies of liars CY? Do they pay you? Is your ego so fragile that admitting you voted for foolish liars would destroy it? Do you like lies and just want to spread them around?
Or are you just plain stupid and can’t tell the difference?
Posted by: salvage at October 24, 2006 07:22 AM (xWitf)
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Let me see if I can understand what you're saying. Iran and Syria made America invade Iraq so that it would become the central front in the War on Terror?
Nice job of mischaracterizing what I wrote, though hardly untypical. Iran, Syria, and al Qaeda decided that Iraq would be part of a central war after we invaded, seeing material support of terrorists and insurgents as a way to "beat" politically an American military they are too weak to confront directly.
As far the flypaper strategy, you might want to address Abu Musab al-Zarqawi for his take on that, or Ayman al-Zawahiri, who both agree that al Qaeda is getting worn down in Iraq, with many of their most experienced operatives getting killed in combat against American-led forces. On second thought, maybe you should just address that to al Zawahiri. Zarqawi become one of those dead experinced terrorists just a few months ago.
As for Bush's "16 words," he never said that Niger supplied uranium to Iraq, only that it sought uranium. The apolitical Factcheck.org verifies this is accurate.
And so another "reality-based" myth down the toilet. Not that you’ll stop believing in it, of course.
As for the link to the White House transcript that you selectively quite from to attack Cheney, I ask readers to read the larger context of the comments, and see if they come up with the same conclusion you did (my bold):
RUSSERT: Let me turn to Iraq. When you were last on this program, September 16, five days after the attack on our country, I asked you whether there was any evidence that Iraq was involved in the attack and you said no.
Since that time, a couple of articles have appeared which I want to get you to react to. The first: The Czech interior minister said today that an Iraqi intelligence officer met with Mohammed Atta, one of the ringleaders of the September 11 terrorists attacks on the United States, just five months before the synchronized hijackings and mass killings were carried out.
And this from James Woolsey, former CIA director: ``We know that at Salman Pak, in the southern edge of Baghdad, five different eye witnesses--three Iraqi defectors and two American U.N. inspectors--have said, and now there are aerial photographs to show it, a Boeing 707 that was used for training of hijackers, including non-Iraqi hijackers, trained very secretly to take over airplanes with knives.''
And we have photographs. As you can see that little white speck, and there it is.
RUSSERT: The plane on the ground in Iraq used to train non-Iraqi hijackers.
Do you still believe there is no evidence that Iraq was involved in September 11?
CHENEY: Well, what we now have that's developed since you and I last talked, Tim, of course, was that report that's been pretty well confirmed, that he did go to Prague and he did meet with a senior official of the Iraqi intelligence service in Czechoslovakia last April, several months before the attack.
Now, what the purpose of that was, what transpired between them, we simply don't know at this point. But that's clearly an avenue that we want to pursue.
RUSSERT: What we do know is that Iraq is harboring terrorists. This was from Jim Hoagland in The Washington Post that George W. Bush said that Abdul Ramini Yazen (ph), who helped bomb the World Trade Center back in 1993, according to Louis Freeh was hiding in his native Iraq. And we'll show that right there on the screen. That's an exact quote.
If they're harboring terrorist, why not go in and get them?
CHENEY: Well, the evidence is pretty conclusive that the Iraqis have indeed harbored terrorists. That wasn't the question you asked the last time we met. You asked about evidence involved in September 11.
Cheney made it quite clear that he was not ready to make a direct link, only that charges made that day by the Czech interior minister was an interesting development worth pursuing to determine if there is any truth to the allegation.
Salvage then goes on a Franken-esque rant about “lying liars,” which is particularly rich considering his entire argument was based on purposefully mischaracterizing what others said in every single example he provided.
I’ll leave it for others to determine which one of us is lying based upon the preponderance of the evidence.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at October 24, 2006 10:09 AM (g5Nba)
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d
Iraqi forced "probably" killed Abu Nidal?
No *&*( sherlock. What you tiny single neuron mind cant grasp is the question of WHY they would do that. Perhaps he ......knew something?
As far as Yasin- CY DIDNT assert he was acting on behalf of Iraq either. He asserted that Yasin- a terrorist who intended to kill 50,000 Americans by blowing up the WTC- was harbored by Sadaam Husseins regime.
Of course you'll reply that Yasin was "incarcerated" in Iraq all those years.
Yeah, sure he was.
Posted by: TMF at October 24, 2006 10:50 AM (+BgNZ)
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Okay, so Iran, Syria, and al Qaeda decided that Iraq would be part of a central war after you invaded.
So what that means is that the terrorists have adapted their strategy to Bush’s. That they have taken the invasion that was supposed to destroy them and made it work for them. They have more recruits, a cause to rally around and a trial by fire that is sure to create some hardcore and experienced killers.
Are we allowed to point out that means Bush played right into their hands with the invasion? That the invasion of Iraq has done nothing but good for the bad guys? Can I point out that there are more terrorists and attacks now then ever before? Do you know that the situation in Iraq is collapsing even faster into full out civil war, that each month is more violent than the one before? Or is all that part of the master plan?
Oh and here’s the thing, the point you can’t seem to get. Terrorism has no “front”, it never has and never will. Do you really think that terrorist cells around the world are packing their bags for Baghdad? “Well we were going to blow up California but gosh Iraq is just too tempting to pass up!”
This is a rather obvious point that you don’t seem to understand, I wonder why?
As far the flypaper strategy, you might want to address Abu Musab al-Zarqawi for his take on that, or Ayman al-Zawahiri, who both agree that al Qaeda is getting worn down in Iraq, with many of their most experienced operatives getting killed in combat against American-led forces. On second thought, maybe you should just address that to al Zawahiri. Zarqawi become one of those dead experinced terrorists just a few months ago.
Your trust in the alleged writing of a terrorist leader is touching, gosh he’d never lie!
Hmmm no experience operatives yet the Coalition body count is the highest it’s been in nearly a year. Weird… unless… maybe… the terrorists aren’t getting worn down? That maybe they’re learning all kinds of new tricks and tactics?
See when your opinion is at odds with the reality it’s time to look hard at your opinion because it’s hard to argue with a pile of corpses.
As for Bush's "16 words," he never said that Niger supplied uranium to Iraq, only that it sought uranium. The apolitical Factcheck.org verifies this is accurate.
I did not have sex with that woman!
Yes you did! We have stains! DNA you liar!
Well ah oral se… stuff isn’t sex… yeah that’s it.
Dude.
Don’t.
Even.
There are endless examples of the Bush Administration talking incessantly about WMD. The most salient being Rummy saying “WE KNOW WHERE THEY ARE.” What was Powell talking about at the UN? How do you argue with that? You can’t. Stop.
Any mention of any WMD related material and Iraq was meant to make a connection. You want to parse the words in a Clintonesque attempt to make a lie the truth then go crazy. The rest of us know the reality; they ginned up the WMD to sell a war they thought they could win in a cakewalk.
We simply don't know at this point. But that's clearly an avenue that we want to pursue.
We don’t know but we’re going to keep talking about it like it could be true or is true!
I don’t know if Confederate Yankee likes to dress sheep up like nuns and copulate with them in the basement, I just don’t know at this point, this guy in Poland told me so, I’ll investigate and get back to you. In the meantime, just to be on the safe side don’t leave CY alone with any sheep or wimples.
Whenever your kind does this of wide-eyed innocence thing, I have to wonder, are you really his gullible or are you choosing to be this gullible? A child could see through the semantics and the plausible deniability. But you know what? What you can’t deny? That at one point 70% of Americans thought there was a connection, now where the heck did that get that idea I wonder?
Fact: Iraq was invaded for WMD, not other reason is legal or even sane.
Fact: Iraq did not have WMD. At best you could argue that the Bush Admin was grotesquely incompetent and should all be fired at worst they’re liars who should be tried. Either scenario (and those are the only two that fit the facts) means that they deserve no support.
Fact: You continue to stick your fingers in a dyke that is nothing but holes. Iraq was a mistake on every level. There is nothing to defend and as each month crawls by and the pile of bodies gets higher and higher you are going to find yourself even more alone.
Posted by: salvage at October 24, 2006 11:21 AM (xWitf)
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salvage
The increasing pile of bodies is being created by terrorists, not George W. Bush.
Just wanted to re-set your moral equivalence compass back a few notches.
You can make the argument that we shouldnt be standing up to these people- but dont confuse who is actually creating the chaos and death
Posted by: TMF at October 24, 2006 01:26 PM (+BgNZ)
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The increasing pile of bodies is being created by terrorists, not George W. Bush.
Uh huh, that is literally true and beside the point.
Tell me, who created the environment for those terrorists? I don't recall daily multiple bombings when Saddam was running the place. I’ve never heard the term “Al Qeada In Iraq” until America invaded.
So guess what?
The bodies may not be the direct fault of Bush but they are certainly the result of his policies.
Everything that happens in Iraq is now the responsibility of Bush and America. Every attack on civilians and infrastructure is America’s duty to prevent. See no one asked you to invade, y’all went and pulled that stunt on your own (ooops forgot Poland!) so it’s all your responsibility.
It’s like Bush walked into a room full of buckets of gas and started flicking matches around, now that the fire has started his tireless defenders in the face of logic and reason are insisting it’s the gas’ fault for being so darn flammable.
You were warned that this would happen, you laughed it off with an unmatched hubris.
Just wanted to re-set your moral equivalence compass back a few notches.
That actually doesn’t make any sense, a compass measures fixed variables, it cannot be put back any more than it can be put forward. I was making no argument about moral equivalence, I was stating facts; Iraq is in real trouble, people are dying there everyday in horrible and violent ways and it’s all the ultimate responsibility of GW Bush and you.
But if you want to talk moral equivalence, what’s worse? Being murdered by Saddam’s goons or being murdered by one of the many factions in Iraq today?
Posted by: salvage at October 24, 2006 02:14 PM (jQnuN)
11
Yes- you are technically correct that there weren't many terrorist attacks when Sadaam was in power.
Thats because the terrorists were in power.
Posted by: TMF at October 24, 2006 03:14 PM (+BgNZ)
12
Hyuck! That's funny, so when America was selling weapons to Saddam they were arming a terrorist! It's good that you can admit that.
So then I can say that it only bothers you when Iraqis are killed by Saddam, anyone else doesn't bother you?
Posted by: salvage at October 24, 2006 04:52 PM (jQnuN)
13
Before we start piling up too many bodies at W's feet, has anyone stopped to consider how many of his own people Sadaam executed? Yes, I know "That was never given as a reason to go to war", but during WWII the extermination of European Judaism was never given as a reason to defeat Hitler, it was just a happy byproduct of removing a perverse despot. The same can be said of Sadaam
Posted by: doc at October 24, 2006 06:17 PM (c1Kr9)
14
Sigh.
You are correct, CY.
Liberalism is indeed a "persistent vegetative state"
Exhibit A: "Salvage"
Ah the "we armed Saddam" canard.
Yeah, and we allied with the Soviets against the nazis also.
And at the time we "armed" saddam (also a falacy and not historically accurate) there was a little thing called the Islamic Revolution going on next door. It was sort of a priority at the time. And Saddam's mass murdering rampage and subsequent turn to jihadist language and training of his fedayeen (you know, the guys we are pretty much fighting now)didnt get into full swing until the 80s.
But like all liberals, you think in a completely historical vaccum and are incapable of seeing beyond your "getBushIhaterepublicansDemocratswillsavehumanityfromevil" prism.
What sad little people you all are.
Posted by: TMF at October 24, 2006 07:46 PM (cGtRE)
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October 21, 2006
Incompetence in the Media War
Michael Yon reports that in what is widely recognized as a "media war" in Iraq, our leader in the public relations battle is an analogue to Forrest Gump.
I talked last night to three infantrymen who were recently back from service in Ramadi and Mosul, and like the two Air Force flight mechanics just back from daily runs to Baghdad from Kuwait I talked to Wednesday night, they said that what the media has been reporting out of Iraq is
nothing like what they've seen.
It's bad enough that the terrorist want to use the media (and that the media are
quite happy to be used), but when incompetents like LTC Barry Johnson functionally censor reporting, only the terrorists side of the story is told, and that's no way to win a media-driven war.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
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From the reports it seems that LTC Barry Johnson is a boob. I could be wrong, but the indications are that LTC Barry Johnson needs to have his head removed from deep within his anus and allow news coverage of the efforts of the US in the middle east to be reported. Is LTC Barry Johnson an incompetent boob, a tool, or a soldier following orders?
Michael Yon is a voice among many who plainly state their frustration with the information about the war being broadcast in the US; there is a side of the story missing and it is a vital and heroic one. Why hide it, and why make things easy for the a**wipe goat-fu**ing murderous tyrants who rejoice at the oppression of their fellow man? Why not support the mission and allow the accurate reporting of news?
Who's Godd**ned side are these a**holes ON!!??
The stories that filter out about the compassion and effectiveness of the US and allied military in the middle east are very impressive and encouraging. The resistance to allowing that news to be released and the seeming encouragement given to the prancing fools of the domestic resistance is maddening (Yes, those prancing fools. The Cronkites of the new era along with their political counterparts mostly of the donk persuasion).
LTC Barry Johnson needs to understand that we are at war, and LTC Barry Johnson needs to pick a fu**ing side.
There are truckloads of examples of valuable intelligence and warnings of enemy activity going unheeded; The Battle of the Bulge, Tet, Pearl Harbor, etc. etc. I noticed contact information for the office of the Combined Press Information Center. I will contact that office and ask a few questions of my own.
Dan Patterson
Arrogant Infidel
Posted by: Dan Patterson at October 22, 2006 11:44 AM (GWOjN)
2
LTC Johnson's name and problematic attitude have been mentioned often enough in the last few dqys that Karl Rove should by now have his dossier on the desktop.
If the administration cannot remove this example of
military boobiness from the position he is in then they must WANT the news controlled the way it currently is.......
Posted by: Gray One at October 22, 2006 09:14 PM (BKzxT)
3
This summer you said Israel didn't use white phosphorous weapons. How do you explain this article?
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/777549.html
Posted by: Bill Franklin at October 22, 2006 09:42 PM (6S7/1)
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You know? I think Yon is completely honest, but. . . .
well, this article makes him look more than a little arrogant.
Every enlisted, or junior officer thinks they can do better. Mike might be right about the embedd process, but he took that and he went a little to geraldo rivera for my taste.
See, When I was in school (with good teachers, rare) and when I was in the service (with good commanders, rare) whenever I got too big for my britches I was sent to something I didn't understand in anyway whatsoever.
Maybe mikes popularity is feeding his ego? I'm not sure, but "slaughter" of US troops, is VERY unlikely, and he used that term several times.
I liked the article, but I didn't like THAT part of the article, to quote my best friend who was infantry "dude? don't worry about me, worry about the guys on the other side of my gun"
We aren't confidant out of arrogance, our armed forces are confidant cuz, OUR armed forces hit their targets. 1200 rounds fired in FB defense, means 900 downed enemy, and I think I am demonstrating the mean of the average.
Other than that, I agree with mike, we need to not crap on willing reporters.
Posted by: Wickedpinto at October 23, 2006 03:50 AM (QTv8u)
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Bill Franklin,
If I recall correctly, I said that Israel did not use white phosphorus against civilians. That is 100% accurate, as a chemical analysis of tbody tissues of those civilians claimed to have been killed with WP confirmed. They discoloration was attributed to decomposition and smoke, not WP. NO WP was detected at all on the bodies claimed.
The claim made in the Haaretz article that the bodies had "entirely shriveled with black-green skin," is not at all consistent with WP burns. WP burns go straight through the skin, they do not cause bodies to shrivel, and as Lebanese doctors earlier claimed, they don't cause them to shrink, either. Quite frankly, these doctors have lied inteh past, and I suspect they are lying now.
More than likely, these doctors--many of which work in hospitals paid for by Hezbollah--have an agenda.
Eyes open, my friend.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at October 23, 2006 08:19 AM (g5Nba)
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October 20, 2006
More Liberal Outreach Towards Christians
Iowahawk had a fall-down funny spoof of a letter from DNC Chairman to banjo-plucking, cross-burning Christian conservatives earlier this week that encompassed the disdain many far left liberals seem to have for religiously-oriented traditional values voters.
AFP decided today to
join in the fun, with the slight difference being that they were attempting to provide not satire, but news:
The top US general defended the leadership of Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld, saying it is inspired by God.
"He leads in a way that the good Lord tells him is best for our country," said Marine General Peter Pace, chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff.
Rumsfeld is "a man whose patriotism focus, energy, drive, is exceeded by no one else I know ... quite simply, he works harder than anybody else in our building," Pace said at a ceremony at the Southern Command (Southcom) in Miami.
Rumsfeld has faced a storm of criticism and calls for his resignation, largely over his handling of the Iraq war.
As is typical of the left-leaning media, they seem amazed that leaders in these modern times pray for guidance from a power higher than themselves, and thought that detail was so newsworthy as to make it this story's lede. Other elements, such as Rumsfeld's controversial leadership style, and an apparent show of support at this ceremony from the military estalishment are far more newsworthy elements of the day's events to most people, but not so to AFP.
AFP seems to want to portray Rumsfeld's faith in God as an unpleasant aspect of his personality... perhaps another reason he should resign. I can only wonder what AFP must think about the 77% of Americans that also share his Christian faith. "Horror above horrors," they seem to be saying, "
those people
pray to
Jesus."
Indeed.
Of course, I'm only speculating about what AFP appears to mean. I don't have to speculate, however, about the contempt for Christians dripping from the lips of liberal bloggers.
Cernig seems comfortable comparing Christians in the Bush Administration with al Qaeda terrorists:
Both the Bush administration and Al Qaida extremists like to claim God is on their side. One of those claims has to be wrong, and since it is a matter of faith which has no chance of objective proof this side of heaven I wish they would both just shut the f**k up about it.
Agnostic conservative/practicing liberal Andy Sullivan drips contempt in his
Christianism Watch:
Surely the military leadership can be a place where expression of religious faith of one particular variety is restrained. Especially when we are at war with Islamic extremists, and when we must take every care to make sure our millitary [sic] actions aren't perceived abroad as religiously motivated. And surely military decisions should be made on an empirical, pragmatic basis, rather than on messages from Heaven.
The Agonist mockingly suggests that
we should be building shrines to Rumsfeld:
High on Martin Luther's 1517 list of grievances was the concept that itermediaries[sic] between God and Man were necessary; that certain select individuals (a.k.a. "priests") relayed Divine will to the rest of us who were too stupid, spiritually inept or otherwise religiously-challenged. Conversely, the Great Unwashed could pray to saints to relay requests to The Big Guy.
After reading this I wonder if we should be building little shrines on our front lawns to Donald Rumsfeld.
Think Progress was wise enough to keep their contempt under wraps and simply chose to provide the lede, knowing that their commenters would do the damage. Sadly, a Christian Democrat was one of the early commenters, asking
rather reasonably:
Rummy is on another level, and should be rightly criticized from all angles and positions, but at the end of the day, how can any sane person say they don’t listen to god? I mean, each soul engages uniquely with God in contemplating divine mysteries according to its innate ability, and this engagement persists for all eternity, for the mysteries of the godhead are inexhaustible, as is the enthusiastic application of the souls’ intellectual ability.
He was quickly
shouted down...
For all your flowery rhetoric, you are very obtuse.
We all know what the general said -that God is actually telling Rusmfeld what to do, not that he is merely seeking divine guidance.
Do you actually talk to your god?
And
again...
How can any sane person say that god is talking to them?
There is, of course much more, both on the Think Progress thread (including another suggestion that Christians = terrorists) and elsewhere around the blogosphere.
I personally know very few people that are either moderates or conservatives (Democrat or Republican) who feel that a belief in God is a political proposition, and yet so may secular leftists are quick to equate the religious faith of our nation’s leaders as a trait of one political party. From there, they seem to tie their hatred of the Bush Administration to a deep-seated and abiding contempt for Christians. Of course, many of them were likely contemptuous of Christians when Bill Clinton was in the White House as well, they just had fewer outlets (no blogosphere, no mySpace, etc) with which to voice their disgust.
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What sad little lives the Leftards have. They say they are tolerant of everything, yet the mere thought of people following the Christian or Jewish faiths drives them insane. They cannot seem to fathom that people would not only Believe, but talk to their God for guidence, rathern then worshipping at the alter of Abortion On Demand.
Of course, we know part of their insanity towards religion is because W is religious.
Unless the religion in question is Islam, of course, then they get all tolerant.
Posted by: William Teach at October 20, 2006 02:29 PM (IRsCk)
2
Yes, you DO speculate. You do more than speculate, you pretend to know others thoughts and interpret them in ways that play to your own fantasies.
Wake up. This isn't about liberal or conservative, it's about saving our country from fascism, which is where it is currently headed.
Speculation and projection are EXACTLY what you are doing.
Posted by: donna at October 20, 2006 10:49 PM (RsZ4w)
3
donna is unhinged, maybe with BDS?
To quote the commenters:
"Do you actually talk to your god?"
"How can any sane person say that god is actually talking to them?"
Speculation was not what he did, nor what I just did. We showed, with evidence, the "contempt for Christians" that liberals have.
The evidence is overwhelming. We don't need to
"know their thoughts". We know their deeds, their actions, their words. I have quoted directly from their own words.
Posted by: Harry at October 20, 2006 11:24 PM (iqg0k)
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I love to run car crashes where an athiest has 4,000 pounds of cold steel wrapped around them. I've never been around one that didn't ask 'God' to help them. Guess I can start telling them 'God' is on break but I have the Jaws of life in my hands.
Actually the truth is 100% of those trapped and in severe pain always ask 'God' to help them. They forget the left wing democratic atheist beliefs in a hurry.
Posted by: Scrapiron at October 20, 2006 11:42 PM (fEnUg)
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Doesn't it bother anyone here that if the quote is true, and Rumsfeld is running his office according to advice from the Good Lord, that the Good Lord must be a hopeless screw-up?
If you want to say something insulting about God, it is hard to do better than say he is responsible for the level of (in)competence that Bush and Rumsfeld have displayed running this war after talking with him.
Posted by: Counterfactual at October 21, 2006 12:00 AM (dPxga)
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Actually for what has been done in so short a period on such a limited budget with so many constraints and so many oppponents both on and off the battlefield a miracle has been achieved but the angels are wearing camo and doing the 'hard work' the critics don't want them to do.
I do not care about a man's beliefs but about the effectiveness of the actions involved. And given that the US still has a peacetime budget, peacetime sized military, peacetime economy, peacetime damned near everything... what has been done is beyond all expectations that anyone would ever have accredited to the US in years and Administrations previous to this. We are judged by *actions* in this life.
Until the critics offer something *better* and a way to ensure the security of the Nation and fight its enemies more effectively, harping on this SecDef who has done the impossible repeatedly is pure sour grapes. And that makes very poor whine.
Posted by: ajacksonian at October 21, 2006 05:37 AM (VLjJI)
7
ajackson - Unfortunately for you, the Bush Administration made pretty explicit statements about what the Iraq war would cost us and what we would accomplish. Looking at their expectations, it turns out you are right ... the actual result is "beyond all expectations" as you put it, but not in the way you seem to think.
Donald Rumsfeld on the cost of the war - "Well, the Office of Management and Budget, has come up come up with a number that's something under $50 billion for the cost. How much of that would be the U.S. burden, and how much would be other countries, is an open question.”
Current cost is now over $300 billion, and those costs are not going to stop rising soon.
And need I remind of you Dep. Secretary of Defense Wolfowitz's prediction that we would not need hundreds of thousands of occuapation troops nor a long occupation because "There is no history of ethnic strife in Iraq." I think we can all agree that there is now.
I think these quotes establish the utter blindness to reality with which the Bush Administration went into this, but I can give you more if you want. So my question to you is that given how much worse things have gone than the Bush Administration predicted, do you still think it is a miracle how well they have gone? And if you do, then why did the Bush people tell you things would be so much better than this. Were they consciously lyng to you or just hopelessly out of touch with reality?
I do agree with you that the heroic work of our soldiers trying to win a war with a peacetime budget and manpower is worthy of our respect and gratitude. But you very carefully avoid pointing out why we have a peacetime budget and manpower. That is the result of conscious decision of Bush and Rumsfeld again. When Bush went before Congress after 9/11, he could have gotten anything he asked for. Did he ask for more troops and a bigger defense budget? No. So whose fault do you think it is that we don't have them now when we need them?
Shall I now mention what we are finding out about how Rumsfeld even forbad discussion of planning for the occupation in the run-up to the war?
So we are back to my original point. If their discussions with God really did play a part in these horrible predictions and policy choices, then God is a major league screw-up. Personally, I don't think God is nearly as bad as those people trying to associate him with the Bush Administration are making him out to be.
Posted by: Counterfactual at October 21, 2006 10:00 AM (dPxga)
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ajacksonian,I would ask you to read the 10/31/2005 report from the SIGIR (Special Inspector General in Iraq) and then tell me that Mr. Rumsfeld is doing a good job. As the SIGIR points out,the logistical problems that existed in the first Iraqi war were still present.The DoD failed to supply te warfighter with body armor and up armored Humvees.
There was no post war planning.In WWII,post-war planning for the occupation of Japan and germany began in 1942.For Iraq,Jay garner was quoted as saying,we were charged with a March event in February.
God help us all,because Rumsfeld is in charge.
www.sigir.mil
Posted by: TJM at October 21, 2006 10:06 AM (F9hZP)
9
TJM - I started to write a comment reminding you of all the errors that were made during WW II, the point being that war is by its very nature unpredictable and its execution always imperfect. But then I realized that you are not serious - it's probably better for you to go back to your decaf soy latte.
Better yet - post a reply "wicked blowing away this like totally fascist dude" and show it to the slightly overweight drama major you think might be giving you the eye it's sure to impress. Quick, Starbuck's is closing soon!
Posted by: SmokeVanThorn at October 21, 2006 10:43 PM (SgMbd)
10
Current cost is now over $300 billion, and those costs are not going to stop rising soon.
It seems to me the $300B bought, in reality, a lot more than we ever expected. Syria marginalized, Kuwait and Saudi's having elections with women candidates, many arab countries opening up diplomatic/trade relations with Israel, etc.
Anyone who thinks those developments would have happened with Saddam still in power is a damn fool.
Posted by: Purple Avenger at October 22, 2006 02:50 AM (k5pDn)
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Who would pray to a god who kills innocent children? A sadist. An idiot. Or someone who hasn't done much thinking.
Despite coming from a religious family, I've been smart enough to figure out the likelihood of there being a (Christian or other) god is so close to zero, you're better off believing in Santa Claus.
Religion may have been beneficial at times, when a fear of divine retribution prevented people from raping and killing. Now that we know it's all made up, it's time to do the right thing for the sake of it being right, not because you're afraid to do wrong.
Posted by: Anonymous for now at October 22, 2006 05:47 AM (RMHg5)
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Purple Avenger - Don't forget to mention some other things that $300 billion and counting have bought.
1) An army so tied up in Iraq that the North Koreans and Iranians know they really have nothing to fear from us and so were/are free to continue with their nuclear weapons programs full blast. Given all our real enemies that are actually building nuclear bombs, it was quite the feat for Bush to pick out for attacking the one that was not, but he managed. Well done.
2) The best recruiting tool that any violent anti-American could hope for. Tell me, how many Iraqis now fighting against us do you think were anti-American terrorists before our invasion and how many are people perfectly willing to leave us alone if we left them alone, but now that we invaded their country are taking up arms against us? Al-Qaeda's basic propaganda point has always been that America makes up false reasons (like WMDs) to occupy the Arab world. It would be helpful in showing Arabs and Muslims this is not true if Bush would not do it.
3) A decline in America's world standing and body blows to our reputation for being the good guys. Let's see, we send our Secretary of State to the U.N. to give a presentation to justify a war, and now it turns out that everything he said from beginning to end was wrong. I know, Bush and his people do not consciously lie, they just say things that are not true out of incompetence. How comforting. We can also put into the scorecard that we are now an official pro-torture country. And yet despite all this, somehow other countries do not respect us like they used to. Imagine that.
4) Well, these are all bad side effects, but it was worth it to build that working democracy in Iraq. Oh wait, we don't have an effective democracy in Iraq. We have a goverment dependent on Shiite militias that effectively control much of the country on their way to establishing a semi-theocracy that is also a semi-ally of their Shiite friends in Iran. Sounds like money well spent to me.
5) Even if we ignore the decapitated Iraqis found in Baghdad parking lots every day now, there are still the thousands of Americans already dead with more every week.
And all this for a mere $300 billion, rapidly growing to $400 billion, and with no end in sight. As you say, we have "bought a lot more than we ever expected." And by the way, can you list the "many Arab countries opening up diplomatic/trade relations with Isreal"?
Posted by: Counterfactual at October 22, 2006 10:26 AM (dPxga)
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Got a quote on my site that goes somethign like "Dear God, why didn't you help the students at columbine, ..." (it goes on to list about 10-15 other schools where kids were shot) and God says "Dear student, I would have helped, but I'm not allowed in schools anymore"
Remember folks, those who reject God now will be gnashing their teeth in agony and railing against God in iternity. Yeah, their blatant hatred against Christians is hard to take, but Christ did say that we'd be hated- more and more so as the end approaches. It maddens me to see the angry vitriolic rhetoric comming from the left, but I have to stop and remind myself that this earth is as close to heaven as they will ever get & their future eternity will be non stop torment- not that I want that for them, but it will be their choice unfortunately. Black hearts spew black venom.
SacredScoop.com
Posted by: Nazareth at October 22, 2006 12:01 PM (f8md8)
14
Counterfactual - So, you're saying the religious fanatics would turn against their leaders if we stopped fighting back? How did you reach that conclusion?
Posted by: Anonymous for now at October 22, 2006 03:41 PM (RMHg5)
15
Anonymous for now - Ok, you got me. I have no idea from which part of my post you get your belief that I said "religious fanatics would turn against their leaders if we stopped fighting back?" The only parts of my post that even could be miscontrued as saying this are:
1) That I pointed out many people now fighting us in Iraq were not trying to kill Americans before our invasion, but now that we are occupying their country, they are. Thus we have boosted the number of our enemies.
2) That much of Iraq is now controlled by Shiite militia and that is not going to change since the Iraqi government depends on them for support to stay in power, and that many of these militia are imposing Islamic fundamentalism and are friendly to Iran.
You will have to explain a little better what you are talking about if you really want me to give a serious answer to your question.
By the way, interesting phrase you used there in saying we are "fighting back". You do realize that Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11 (It was an Afghanistan operation staffed mostly by Saudis), so our invading Iraq was not "fighting back" against Al-Qaeda and its supporters. The President himself even admits this is true on odd numbered days. In fact, we took resources away from where we actually were fighting back in Afghanistan to instead launch this invasion of a country that had not attacked us. I am old enough to remember when we (the U.S.) sort of had the idea it was wrong to attack other countries that had not attacked us first. I guess you hold to the more modern idea that not only do we get to invade any country we want to just because our President doesn't like it, but we get to say we are "fighting back" when we do so.
Posted by: Counterfactual at October 22, 2006 04:38 PM (dPxga)
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counterfactual- Iraq had nothign to do with hitting us, huh? Wow, have I got news for you- They absolutely did sponser and fund and encourage terrorism against us- a little research will quickly prove that there was a direct link- I've got a huge list of confessed terrorists and intel proving it- I'll be posting it on my site in a few days- meanwhile- newsbusters.org has compiled evidence- here's a short list: http://newsbusters.org/node/7335
Posted by: Nazareth at October 22, 2006 08:20 PM (f8md8)
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I forgot to mention- I've also got a long list of Democrats who vehemently stated that Saddam must go because of the attrocities that he was committing against his fellow citizens- We didn't 'invade just because we wanted to' that is a deceitful thing to accuse the government of- We went into Iraq for several reasons- the most important was to stop one of the worst genocides in history which was reason enough- never mind the fact that Saddam was actively funding attacks against us and other nations- ALL human rights violations and sanction violations which he threw i nthe worlds face for over 12 years- no counter- it wasn't 'just because we wanted to'- far far from it.
Posted by: Nazareth at October 22, 2006 08:26 PM (f8md8)
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Jeez, look at the liberal deflections. As usual, they go to their BDS crap.
Posted by: William Teach at October 22, 2006 08:33 PM (doAuV)
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Guys, if you want to start accusing someone of spreading leftist lies that President Bush invaded Iraq even though it had no connection to 9/11, I think you might want to take a look at this first. From President Bush's press conference on August 21, 2006.
http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2006/08/20060821.html
THE PRESIDENT: "What did Iraq have to do with what?"
Q: "The attack on the World Trade Center?"
THE PRESIDENT: "Nothing, except for it's part of -- and nobody has ever suggested in this administration that Saddam Hussein ordered the attack. Iraq was a -- the lesson of September the 11th is, take threats before they fully materialize, Ken. Nobody has ever suggested that the attacks of September the 11th were ordered by Iraq. I have suggested, however, that resentment and the lack of hope create the breeding grounds for terrorists who are willing to use suiciders to kill to achieve an objective. I have made that case."
Now add the 9/11 commisions finding that there is "no credible evidence" that Saddam Hussein's government in Iraq collaborated with the al Qaeda terrorist network on any attacks on the United States and you get the basis for my statement. Do you want to agree that Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11 or start talking about how the President and 9/11 commission Senators spread leftist lies because they hate America.
I have looked at your list of Iraqi terrorist actions, Nazareth. It is very heavy on vague newspaper articles about Saddam recruiting terrorists who never seem to actually have done anything, at least in the recent past against the United States. Admittedly, I have not had a chance to look in-depth at all of them, but in a quick run through, I could not find one specific terrorist act against the U.S. in the last 10 years they actually accused Saddam of causing. So I ask you, what specific terrorist actions against the U.S. was Saddam responsible for that justify war against Iraq? The Congressional Authorization of force does mention one (and only one), the 1993 assassination plot against Former President Bush. Given that we went to war 10 years after this happened, that seems a bit of a weak reed to lean on.
As far as going into Iraq to stop genocide, I wonder do you also favor going into the Sudan now on a massive military scale, where genocide is taking place on a scale proportionally far surpassing anything that Saddam did?
I agree it was a bit too flip on my part to say we went into Iraq because the President wanted to. We did it for 3 main reasons.
1) Stop Iraq's WMD program. Oopsie, turns out they didn't have one.
2) Show our other enemy nations (Iran especially) that our military could handle them easily. Instead such a large part of our army is now trapped in Iraq for the foreseeable future that the governments of Iran and North Korea know they are safer than ever.
3) Build a model democracy that would be an example the people of other Middle Eastern countries would seize upon and overthrow their own despots to make. Anyone want to argue that people in other countries are clammering for their countries to be made more like current Iraq?
Posted by: Counterfactual at October 22, 2006 11:25 PM (dPxga)
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Counterfactual - Let me explain.
You said: "how many [Iraqis fighting against us] are people perfectly willing to leave us alone if we left them alone".
I figured from this you're suggesting they - the fanatics - would stop killing people, if "we left them alone". Thus, they would refuse to do what their leaders urge them to do - in other words, they would turn against their leaders.
Now one could say that the crazy clerics, too, would quit preaching terror if the Western troops withdrew, but that would make little sense.
Posted by: Anonymous for now at October 23, 2006 11:39 AM (kRkl8)
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Just Another Day in Tehran
Lovely:
Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad on Friday called Israel's leaders a "group of terrorists" and threatened any country that supports the Jewish state.
"You imposed a group of terrorists ... on the region," Ahmadinejad said, addressing the U.S. and its allies. "It is in your own interest to distance yourself from these criminals... This is an ultimatum. Don't complain tomorrow."
"Nations will take revenge," he told a crowd of thousands gathered at a pro-Palestinian rally in the capital Tehran.
Ahmadinejad said Israel no longer had any reason to exist and would soon disappear.
"This regime, thanks to God, has lost the reason for its existence," he said.
"Efforts to stabilize this fake (Israeli) regime, by the grace of God, have completely failed... You should believe that this regime is disappearing," he said.
What Ahmadinejad's thinly-veiled threat failed to mention is that his apocalyptic
Hojjatieh sect quite likely has the intention of "helping" Israel out of existence once Iran has both nuclear warheads and the ability to deliver them.
The implicit threats of this particular exchange, which
CNN provides coverage of in greater depth, are directed at Europe:
Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad has warned Europe that it may pay a heavy price for its support of Israel.
"You should believe that this regime (Israel) cannot last and has no more benefit to you. What benefit have you got in supporting this regime, except the hatred of the nations?" he said in nationally broadcast speech Friday.
"We have advised the Europeans that the Americans are far away, but you are the neighbors of the nations in this region," he said.
"We inform you that the nations are like an ocean that is welling up, and if a storm begins, the dimensions will not stay limited to Palestine, and you may get hurt."
I wonder how much longer the pint-sized Holocaust denier will continue to issue threats against the world community without any measurable response from those countries he has threatened to put in the crosshairs.
Time and again, Ahmadinejad says Iran only wants to continue its nuclear program for peaceful means, only to quickly reissue threats that most understand to be links to implied of attacks by MIRV-equipped ICBMs.
I won't be shocked to find that the world will only recognize the threat that Ahmadinejad's
Hojjatieh sect brings to hundreds of thousand if not millions of lives as they attempt to bring forth the Hidden Imam. I suspect it will only be after Iran's missiles are launched, and by then it will be far too late.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
10:46 AM
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What's Amarah Wit You?
A developing story in Iraq is the seizure of the southern Iraqi city of Amarah today by roughly 800 militiamen of Muqtada al-Sadr's al-Mahdi Army in response to the kidnapping of the teenage brother of the local head of the a-Madhi Army. the kidnapping came on the heels of the assassination of the head of police intelligence in the area, who belonged to another Shiite militia, the Badr Brigade. The Associated Press is among many of the news organizations covering the story.
The takeover of Amarah is just the latest example of intra-sectarian fighting in Iraq that shows that the current U.S. strategy in Iraq is not working. As a recently-back-from-Iraq Phillip Carter
noted yesterday:
During the last two years, the U.S. presence in Iraq has consolidated in massive superfortresses like Anaconda and shut down dozens of smaller bases and outposts across the country. This operational withdrawal was meant to make the U.S. presence more efficient and to reduce the risk of having small units deployed on small bases where they might be vulnerable to insurgent attack; it also forced the Iraqis to become more self-sufficient in securing their own cities. Unfortunately, this has come at a price. When a massive flare-up happens in places like Balad, Tikrit, or Kirkuk, all cities without a permanent U.S. presence, our military must respond from afar, its effectiveness and responsiveness limited by distance.
* * *
This violent weekend proves that America needs to radically change its course in Iraq, while some form of victory still lies within our grasp. First, the U.S. military must reverse its trend of consolidation and redeploy its forces into Iraq's cities. Efficiency and force protection cannot define our military footprint in Iraq; if those are our goals, we may as well bring our troops home today. Instead, we must assume risk by pushing U.S. forces out into small patrol bases in the middle of Iraq's cities where they are able to work closely with Iraqi leaders and own the streets. Counterinsurgency requires engagement. The most effective U.S. efforts thus far in Iraq have been those that followed this maxim, like the 3rd Armored Cavalry Regiment in Tal Afar, which established numerous bases within the city and attacked the insurgency from within with a mix of political, economic, and military action.
I hope that the current situation spurs military leaders in Iraq towards to solution that Carter rightly advocates, starting with a direct confrontation of the 800 al-Mahdi militiamen that have taken over Amarah.
Logistically, it isn't possible for just 800 unsupported militia fighters to establish and maintain the "total control"(as the media so breathlessly puts it) of a city as large as Amarah, which has an estimated population of 340,000 spread across the geographical boundaries formed by the fork of three rivers.
A more detailed satellite map from GlobalSecurity.org can be seen
here.
Based upon map data alone, this would be an
extremely difficult city for a much larger, better equipped and better trained conventional military force to hold, much less a militia. It seems that geography could be used to section off parts of the city, which could then be cleared of militiamen in the following manner.
Conventional military units could be used to set-up checkpoints in blockading positions around the roads leading into Amrah, while small special operations units from the Iraqi military and supported by U.S. intelligence and strike aircraft should be able to locate and observe concentrations of militiamen (untrained forces have a tendency to cluster) and inflict significant casualties with precision weapons. Militiamen patrolling the city in vehicles would seem to be prime targets for hit-and-run ambushes, which could be assembled on the fly with intelligence from overhead U.S. drone aircraft.
There is no need to engage these militia forces in a frontal assault with conventional forces that would lead to significant damage to the civilian infrastructure when precise intelligence, coordinated small arms and the use of smaller precision airborne munitions could achieve the same objectives.
If such a plan is able to be implemented, the militiamen would be forced to surrender, attempt to escape, or die as they move around the city. Once sufficiently weakened, conventional Iraqi Army and Police forces should be able to mop-up any remaining forces and reestablish control.
American and Iraqi military and police forces must rein in militias, reestablish localized bases across Iraq to better provide stability and quick response capabilities, and work to bring economic and political force to bear to make lasting changes on a local level.
I'm not sure if we need "more boots on the ground" to stabilize Iraq, but I am quite certain that we cannot improve the situation by isolating our forces in large bases and letting militias and sectarian gangs run free.
"All politics is local," said someone very wise. So are insurgencies, which cannot be defeated from the PX of a large megabase.
Update: Bill Roggio has related thoughts on dealing with Mahdi Army leader
Muqtada al-Sadr.
Update: The Iraqi Army came in with two companies of soldiers from Basra, and have
retaken the city. The threat of going up against a large conventional Army force was apparently enough for the militiamen.
As a side note, Wikipedia (where I got my population number from) claims Amarah's population as being 340,000 in 2002.
Lexicorient.com places the city's population at 420,000 as of 2005. The AP article from today states that the population is 750,000.
I think we just found the missing people from
the Lancet study.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
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1
Don't you think the best approach to the Iraq problem would be a withdrawl to the port and selected oil fields that are easily defended. Then try to restrict entrance and exit from the country. Finally, allow these idiots to kill each other without trying to restict their efforts.
Posted by: David Caskey at October 20, 2006 11:31 AM (OSKRn)
2
Dear David Caskey, thank you for openly mentioning the real reasons for war on Iraq:
"Don't you think the best approach to the Iraq problem would be a withdrawl to the port and selected oil fields that are easily defended."
WMD, democracy, freedom, ... ha, ha!
"Then ... exit from the country. Finally, allow these idiots to kill each other without trying to restict their efforts." - You are talking of men, women and children whose country YOUR military has invaded (though being warned) and which is in ruins now (even more than it was under the dictator Saddam) due to the ignorance of those who only believe in firepower.
Posted by: Hartmut Heinemann at October 23, 2006 11:51 AM (XPM/2)
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October 19, 2006
Democrats Plot Impeachment
Wonder what the Democrats will do first if they managed to gain control of the House of Representatives?
Wonder no more (h/t:
Ace):
A plan is in place to censure and impeach President Bush and Vice President Cheney. Orchestrated and organized by the radical Left and Congressman John Conyers, Jr., this plan is ready to go should the Democratic Party take control of the House of Representatives in November.
The plan is the ultimate manifestation of left-wing hatred for George W. Bush rooted in the contentious election of 2000. Since failing to defeat Bush in 2004, the Left has focused its efforts on destroying his presidency by assembling a list of charges aimed at impeaching him.
The article is from FrontPageMag.com and therefore normally of dubious veracity, except for the tiny, troubling details that Democrats have already introduced to Congress
H.Res 635 to investigate articles of impeachment,
H.Res. 636 to censure President Bush, and
H.Res. 637 to censure Vice President Cheney.
Democrats are apparently preparing to attempt to impeach their way into the White House while soldiers are deployed overseas in two wars, a nuclear North Korea threatening the world with nuclear weapons, and an Iran desperate trying to obtain nuclear weapons threatens to wipe Israel off the map.
Is everyone motivated to vote now, or do you like our nation's odds under President Pelosi?
Update: For the record, Lorie Byrd
called this back in May.
Her post includes a link to a
Washington Post article where Nancy Pelosi promised a series of investigations if the Democrats took control of the House, and when asked about impeachment as a result of the investigations, she said, "You never know where it leads to."
Leading Democrats--not those "on the fringe" as some liberals would have you believe-- are behind these efforts. Maxine Waters, Jim McDermott, Jerrold Nadler, Lynn Woolsey etc, are just some of the House Democrats that have signed on as co-sponsers to
all three of Charlie Rangel's censure and impeach resolutions cited above.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
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For a bunch of people who are always yammering about how important every vote is the Democrats have no problem doing away with the 2004 election. Oh well, the only elections they support are the ones they win.
Posted by: Terrye at October 19, 2006 03:04 PM (+ctn9)
2
This is the kind of stuff that those on the Right who are going a little wobbly should understand.
Even if they don't like the candidate, their mantra should be "anybody but Democrats."
Posted by: William Teach at October 19, 2006 04:52 PM (TFSHk)
3
on drudge report: http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/story?id=2585531
news head line is "North Korean General: ' War is Inevitable' "
on the first line of the story: "IF President Bush continues to ask North Korea to "kneel," war "will be inevitable," ...North Korean Gen. Ri Chan Bok told "Good Morning America" anchor Diane Sawyer.
The quotation allegedly given by the North Korean General (as seen in the headline), that 'War IS inevitable', is nowhere in the article.
How can the media get away with such a blatant misquotation? I know the media puts their slant and lies about things all the time, but this seems extraordinary.
Posted by: Wells Hamilton at October 19, 2006 07:06 PM (5Cb7I)
4
Sooooooooooo this is what your Democrat Senators and Representatives have been doing for the past few years. Instead of working for the people, they've been planning their equivalent of suing to obtain power. This goes right along with one of their core beliefs of "everybody is a victim." If they lose elections, they are "victims" and, thus, must sue to compensate. Freud would would be able to fill volumes after observing the current state of mind of many of today's Democrats.
Posted by: bws53 at October 19, 2006 07:07 PM (ncxe0)
5
LOL - People, Confederate Yankee himself points out the source here is "dubious". Yes, some of the more enthusiastically anti-Bush Congressional Democrats might like to try impeachement. However the more powerful Democrats remember the voter backlash against the Republicans when they did the frivolous impeachment thing against Clinton in 1998 and will not stick their head in the same noose.
It is true there might be a move to censure the President, but that is actually a pretty reasonable response to a President who says untrue things to manipulate the public into supporting a war against a country that had not attacked us (untrue does not mean he knowingly lied, just that he says things that are not true through honest incompetence).
If Republicans are so hard up for good reasons to vote red this year that they have to seize on this one, I guess Ms. Pelosi can start measuring the windows in the majority leaders's office for her curtains.
Posted by: Counterfactual at October 19, 2006 07:52 PM (dPxga)
6
...and will not stick their head in the same noose.
Appeasment of the moonbats will dictate they try it if they want to keep the far left energized in 08'.
Posted by: Purple Avenger at October 19, 2006 08:38 PM (k5pDn)
7
Purple Avenger - Don't worry about keeping those moonbats energized. As long as Bush is President, they will have more than enough energy to keep them bouncing off the walls. You don't really think that if the Congressional Democrats do not try to impeach President Bush, the moonbats are not going to still work their butts off to defeat the Republicans in 2008? You know they will, and what you know, Pelosi and Reid also know. They can take that energy for granted and play the "responsible stateman" role to set up the Dems for 2008.
The only problem from their point of view is if there are too many moonbat Congressman and Senators to keep under control. Short answer: there are not. And if the Dems do take congress, many of the new people will be from red states and a further moderating influence. I really don't see Ford (TN) or Tester (MT) out there pushing for impeachment.
Posted by: Counterfactual at October 19, 2006 09:07 PM (dPxga)
8
I absolutely love the way that some shmoe comes up with this off-the-wall idea about pending impeachment proceedings and all the wingnuts here run wild with it. "I saw it on them there Internets! It must be true! Them moonbats! What're they gonna think of next to destroy Amurica, Cleroy?"
News flash, dipsticks: you run the whole friggin' government. All three branches. You have for years. How far do you think those House resolutions are going to go with a Republican majority?
Get a brain! Morans!
Posted by: Doc Washboard at October 19, 2006 09:30 PM (a7IIY)
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How far do you think those House resolutions are going to go with a Republican majority?
How much investigation and gyration will about $100,000,000 (+/- $50M) worth of taxpayer money buy? That's about how far I think they'll go.
Posted by: Purple Avenger at October 19, 2006 10:25 PM (k5pDn)
10
Sleepy, Dopey, Sneezy, Doc -
I absolutely love the way that some shmoe comes up with this off-the-wall idea about pending impeachment proceedings and all the wingnuts here run wild with it. "I saw it on them there Internets! It must be true! Them moonbats! What're they gonna think of next to destroy Amurica, Cleroy?"
H.R. 635, H.R. 636, H.R. 637? So, you're admitting that Conyers and his 37 co-sponsors are shmoes? Pelosi will not rule an impeachment out, she says they'll start investigations and see where it leads them. Are you admitting Pelosi is a shmoe too?
There are several impeachbush websites. There is a pac specifically for that purpose. The Nation is calling for impeachment. Democrats.org is calling for impeachment. To name a few. Are you saying they are all schmoes?
News flash, dipsticks: you run the whole friggin' government. All three branches. You have for years.
And the poor little Democrats have absolutely no say in the legislation?
Why don't we have private accounts for Social Security then?
Why are any judicial appointments still on hold then?
Why aren't there tougher immigration laws then?
Why are looney liberals not stifled in speech and jailed in person?
Are you saying that, if Dems take over, there will be a cozy power sharing model where Republicnas will have co-equal say in the legislation that comes forward?
You are appearing to be a bigger dipstick and you're at least a quart low.
Posted by: SouthernRoots at October 19, 2006 11:15 PM (jHBWL)
11
Well, SouthernRoots, yes. All the persons you mentioned are, in fact, shmoes. They're all shmoes in Washington. Why haven't you realized that? Some are just more shmoe-riffic than others.
Anyway, though it wasn't clear in my post, I was referring to the shmoes at FrontPageMag.
As to your points: as you well know, parliamentary rules make it possible for a minority to slow down or block action, but not to make legislation go through. Democrats, therefore, can keep various bad Republican ideas from being enacted, but they wouldn't be able to make impeachment happen as a minority party.
The Democrats aren't going to take back either house in November. Stop the scare tactics. They're pointless.
Finally: you are saying that progressives should be imprisoned simply because you don't like their ideas, and that only parliamentary procedure is keeping that from happening. The inner Nazi revealed at last! Sieg heil, mein herr! The Southern Reich shall rise again!
Why do you hate America?
Posted by: Doc Washboard at October 20, 2006 12:32 AM (a7IIY)
12
Ummm... Some above seem to be suggesting that the Dems have no intention of running a preposterous impeachment schtick.
Here, from the Library of Congress site, are HR 635, HR 636,and HR 637.
Conyers is the sponsor for each and each has a list of cosponsers (19) that represents the Schtormtorpors of the Traveling Moonbat Menagerie.
Posted by: Knucklehead at October 20, 2006 07:01 AM (PWdQX)
13
Sleepy, Dopey, Sneezy, Doc -
I already believed they were schmoes, I was just taken aback that you would admit it.
"but they wouldn't be able to make impeachment happen as a minority party."
That was part of the point of the post. If they weren't the minority party, would they try harder to impeach?
With all the MSM trumpeting of any and all polls showing Dems in the lead, why are you so certain they won't take over? I don't think they will, but then, I'm an optimist.
Finally, I put a line in satrizing the hyperventalation the left has done over the detainee act, the patriot act, and the Republicans being in power, and how your speech has been stifled and your liberties severly restricted. If you weren't able to pick up on that, I do apologize. I'll type slower next time so you can understand.
As for your penchant to leap to Nazi conclusions, well, it would be funny if it weren't so pathetic. Is that how you always end discussions when your feelings are hurt? You need to work on newer, better insult material.
Posted by: SouthernRoots at October 20, 2006 08:52 AM (jHBWL)
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Brown and Yellow: Great on Heidi Klum, Not So Good On Voting
Yeah, I Google-baited the snot out of that one. What of it?
Anyway, it seems that a Vietnamese immigrant running for Congress in California might be behind letters sent to Hispanic voters in Orange County telling them that illegal aliens and immigrants can't vote.
No,
I'm not kidding:
State investigators have linked a Republican campaign to letters sent to thousands of Orange County Hispanics warning them they could go to jail or be deported if they vote next month, a spokesman for the attorney general said.
"We have identified where we believe the mailing list was obtained," said Nathan Barankin, spokesman for Attorney General Bill Lockyer.
He declined to identify the specific Republican campaign Wednesday, citing the ongoing investigation.
The Los Angeles Times and The Orange County Register both reported Thursday that the investigation appeared to be focused on the campaign of Tan D. Nguyen, a Republican who immigrated to the U.S. from Vietnam as a child and is now challenging Democratic Rep. Loretta Sanchez for her seat in Congress. Nguyen's Web site says he opposes illegal immigration.
The letter, written in Spanish, tells recipients: "You are advised that if your residence in this country is illegal or you are an immigrant, voting in a federal election is a crime that could result in jail time."
In fact, immigrants who are naturalized U.S. citizens can vote.
The fact that
he himself is an immigrant seems to have been lost on Mr. Nguyen, though if California is anything at all like North Carolina it is quite possible that illegal aliens could easily cast a ballot.
Were these letters sent out to kindly remind Orange County voters not to break the law, or were they sent out to intimidate voters? I'd guess "yes," which would appear to be just
slightly illegal, hence the Attorney General's involvement.
What Nguyen
should have done was to send out letters printed in Spanish, Screenwriterese, and Ghost to remind people that illegal aliens,
fictional characters, and
the dead can't vote, which would have a far more chilling effect on a wider front of the Democratic base, without having crossed legal lines.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
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Terrorist Public Relations: This is CNN
The most prominent story on CNN.com's home page this morning is the airing of clips from a insurgent group's propaganda video, and the accompanying news story focusing on the use of insurgent snipers targeting American soldiers. CNN obtained the video from the Islamic Army of Iraq through intermediaries. A similar video from the same group has been circulating since November of 2005 (sidenote: I have not recently seen the 2005 video, and cannot verify if any of the scenes from the 2005 release were used in today's CNN story, and so this might be something worth checking).
The video report and the accompanying story are not particularly newsworthy in and of themselves; insurgent sniper attacks and IEDs have been their primary means of combat since the early days of the war, and
sniper attacks have been well-documented.
In any event, the article and video provided by CNN—brace yourselves—doesn't provide anything approaching a honest telling of why insurgent snipers are a "newsworthy" item.
Insurgent snipers in Iraq, as a rule, are armed with Soviet-designed variants of the
Druganov rifle, as can been seen employed by an Iraqi insurgent embedded with the
New York Times here. The use of snipers using such weapons is one of only a handful of tactics that still work for Iraqi insurgents.
Previous tactics used by the insurgency earlier in the war—large-scale ambushes, fighting from entrenched positions—led to brief, intense battles where the training and weaponry of U.S. forces often completely wiped out insurgent units. The insurgency has
never won a sizable engagement against U.S. forces, and has since had to adapt to tactics that give them a batter chance to survive.
This leaves them in a situation with very reduced options, among them being the employment of snipers. The use of snipers is the only tactic they use that can:
- readily be filmed, and;
- does not cause significant civilian casualties as a result (which is bad for propaganda purposes).
The three other methods used by Iraqi insurgents—IEDs, suicide bombings, and mortar attacks—do not meet these criteria.
Even when remotely controlled, IEDs often indiscriminately kill and wound civilians when targeting Iraqi and Coalition forces. Suicide bombings, which typically produce the largest number of overall casualties of any of insurgent tactic, typically kill and injure more civilians that anyone else, as
this story today readily attests (my bold):
In the deadliest attack, police opened fire on a bomber as he drove an explosives-laden fuel truck towards the Tamam police station.
The driver was shot dead, but the fuel ignited and set off the explosives, police said.
Civilians bore the brunt of the attack, as many of the casualties were motorists waiting to buy fuel at a nearby petrol station.
Insurgents also use mortars to attack coalition forces, but the attacks are not easily filmed, and are not often effective (though on the rare occasions they are, they can be
quiet dramatic).
This leaves the filming of sniper attacks as the only real viable option for insurgents wishing to film an attack that won't also inflame the Iraqi population against them. They can selectively target Americans when they shoot video of sniper attacks for propaganda purposes. They even go out of their way to make this point in the CNN story.
"People are around them," warns the spotter, who seems to be operating the video camera. "Want me to find another place?"
"No, no," comes the reply, "give me a moment."
But this "point" of targeting just Americans is laughable; insurgents routinely target Iraqis,
killing 4,000 Iraqi policemen and wounding 8,000 more in the past two years alone.
None of these facts, however, deserves a mention the CNN story that provides the release of insurgent propaganda.
Carefully-edited sniper attacks are all that the insurgency really has going in their favor… except of course, for the dissemination of this propaganda by news outlets like CNN.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
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1
The fools at CNN seem to believe that there is no no wrong, no tyranny, no murder, no oppression, and no villany in the terrorists actions in Iraq. The dramatic footage of a person who wishes an American soldier or Marine dead only because he is an American, is evidence of comfort to the enemy.
CNN doesn't believe there is an enemy.
CNN doesn't believe in patriotism.
CNN is awash in it's own self-importance.
How is the best way to contact the fooltools at CNN to make one's opinion known?
Dan Patterson
Arrogant Infidel
Posted by: Dan Patterson at October 19, 2006 12:19 PM (GWOjN)
2
CNN has not decided which side they are on..
They can't decide if they are for freedom or against freedom.
Posted by: Marvin at October 19, 2006 02:11 PM (57AYn)
3
Can I question the timing? Videos like this one have been circling the internet for quite some time, so why now? Is the 2006 Ramadan offensive going to be another 1968 Tet offensice? Only if the media makes it one, and CNN is trying its hardest.
Posted by: BohicaTwentyTwo at October 19, 2006 02:41 PM (oC8nQ)
4
Can I question the accuracy?
Any yahoo can patch together disparate pieces of film showing islamowhackos firing rifles and American soldier falling. All it takes is the raw film and an editing program. The guy with a gun can be 50 miles away from any armed American when his piece is filmed.
Any analysis of this for fakery? Serious analysis, that is -- not done by CNN dupes.
Posted by: Mark L at October 19, 2006 02:49 PM (ZO0u/)
5
But remember, according to Ted Turner, they have "no business showing the American flag."
"Both sides of the story?" "Unvarnished truth?" Riiiiiiiiiight.
Here's a more apt phrase: "Certain useful idiots in the West."
Posted by: TallDave at October 19, 2006 03:36 PM (oyQH2)
6
Just don't ask them to show people that had to jump out of the towers, all the beheadings of Iraqis by terrorists, or all the terrorist attacks going on around the world right now.
Did they show the shooting in the back of the nun or the killing of Christians by Muslims on a huge scale.
Does anyone know which blogs are doing a blast on CNN? Please post if you do.
Posted by: Ali at October 19, 2006 03:59 PM (hDlfX)
7
Let's take the analysis of the cards as they are dealt...face up.
CNN is now and ALWAYS HAS BEEN...not even thinly-veiled in their leftist leanings against the prosecution of the war against Saddam AND THIS GOES BACK TO Peter A. and Desert Storm...not just the present mission.
CNN has been very thinly-veiled opponents to America and Israel in the defense against Islamorage.
CNN has been complicit in their reporting "by the rules" set forth by the Islamofascist propaganda ministers for more than a decade.
Therefore, it stands to reason that they would continue along this vein and promote EXACTLY what is in their COMMON interests with the enemy and their propaganda ministers.
Showing American soldiers being sniped at...in an orchestrated and cinematographically staged theater....is PRECISELY what BOTH sides want.
Koppel only recites a litany of the dead, Jennings/Rather/Brokaw only hammer relentlessly about the NUMBER of casualties ON OUR SIDE.
They do not have the slightest interest in presenting any success in taking the "attack" TO the terrorists (Jennings...whose mother was a virulent anti-American and her blood coursed through his veins, refused to even use the WORD)...nor do they care to even suggest that we have not been successfully attacked HERE in five years...they simply wish to cast the prosecution of our national defense in the worst possible light.
Showing our own men being shot by snipers...serves their purpose well. It's NOT the propagandists of Islamorage that should flame our passions...it is the bastardization of the public trust by our own media that is the greater sickness.
We have met the enemy...and he is us.
CNN along with their leftist audience believe we DESERVE to die. Well, I guess it's better than wishing our guys dead AND throwing feces at them when they return home. Now they only shovel it at us from behind the camera.
Posted by: cf bleachers at October 19, 2006 04:55 PM (V56h2)
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You know, it's kinda funny - when I read/watch CNN I regularly see bias against the left, not for it. In looking for common ground in this politically divided country, people on both sides can probably agree they aren't happy with the objectivity of the media.
Take for instance, labling these snipers as terrorists. A terrorist attacks a civilian target, for the purpose of influencing political policy. This is an attack on a military target, for a military objective. It is not any different from the kind of work our snipers are doing. Of course, when it's our soldiers who are getting shot at, there's no question that the shooter is an enemy of the US - but thats not the same thing as a terrorist. If it was 20 years ago, and they were Afghans shooting at Soviets, we'd call them freedom fighters, and send them weapons.
>"CNN along with their leftist audience believe we DESERVE to die"
This is just pure nonsense. Anybody who wants to sow division in this country where none exists is actually in the business of aiding the terrorist cause! Come-on Bleachers, we are all on the same side here.
An overwhelming majority of Americans support and appreciate the efforts of our soldiers, who deserve credit for having the discipline to faithfully execute a fundamentally flawed strategy to the best of their ability. I take great pride in both morally and financially supporting one of the greatest fighting forces the world has ever known.
What I don't take pride in is the arrogance and incapability of our civilian leadership, who thru lies and scare tactics has brought us into an unnecessary and ill concieved war; then failed to even wage it effectively. THEY deserve to be held to account for those actions, just as our soldiers deserve leadership who won't brazenly use them as pawns in a self-benefiting geopolitical game.
Some of us have seen this train wreck coming for a long time now, and let me tell you, we take no pleasure in the bitter fruit of seeing our worst fears played out. I sure hope the bastards who brought us to this sorry place have to pay big-time.
Posted by: chris at October 19, 2006 05:38 PM (0AwzE)
9
I'm sorry that you are all assigning some anti-American senitment to this action. You need to understand the news show industry in this country. They are after power (money) and viewers (money). If they can effect a transfer of power in Washington and elsewhere, they will have demonstrated how much power they have which will make them more money. They're not smart enough to be as devious as you are describing.
Posted by: John at October 19, 2006 06:17 PM (AdAPj)
10
1) "I regularly see bias against the left"
2) "A terrorist attacks a civilian target for political purposes, ....we'd call them freedom fighters and send them weapons"
3) "Cmon Bleachers, we are all on the same side"
Ok, Chris. I'll assume a position of neutrality on item 3) above and let's start from stance of being on the same side. (I don't believe that MoveOn and Rush Limbaugh are on the "same side" as each other...nor either of us...so, I won't accept that we ALL are on the same side...but you held out the olive branch and I'm willing to take it)
On Item 1), since I don't have a dog in this fight on the right or left bleachers, I am firmly planted in cf...I will tell you without hesitation or reservation that I see no such thing. The media in today's world comes from a perspective, a position...and what they choose to report and what they choose to ignore and how they frame issues...comes either from the right or the left. CNN is clearly to my eye...coming out of left field. It can't be seriously denied that Peter Arnett and his ilk, Jane Fonda and her husband...have no political agenda...or that it is not reflected in the "shaping" of the "facts" that are often choreographed, setup and played out in theatrical fashion.
If you choose to suggest that Fox News and talk radio do the same thing...from right field...I will support you. But failing to see that which is clearly there to be seen from BOTH sides...is either wishful thinking or slightly myopic, in my opinion. Chris, the first step in each holding the olive branch, is to agree on those matters for which there should be no disagreement from objective observers. The media tilts left at CNN, ABC, NBC, CBS, NYTimes and tilts right on Fox News and talk radio.
If we can't agree on that...our foundation is filled with potholes upon which not much can be built.
2) above is a narrow definition of "terrorist" in today's world. If they fly hijacked civilian planes into Pentagon, then snipe at our soldiers from behind hospital beds...is it the "target" that defines them as "freedom fighters".
This new war isn't against a country that DECLARED war against us, it is against a "like-minded" group...that does not use conventional theaters to engage us. (Or Israel, their favorite whipping boy)
They blow up kids, buses, soldiers, embassies, ships, movie theaters, ...neither DECLARING who they are, nor declaring "war"...but only declaring a general "jihad" against all infidels. It is not from ONE country...fighting for freedom against the tyranny of another...but ideologues fighting for the right to drive Israel into the sea, kill all Jews...convert all Christians and Buddhists and atheists and gays and anyone who does not conform to their conversion and caliphate hunt.
We aren't their "enemy" more than the Russians...we simply stand in their way for world domination. Appeasement of Hitler was an idea...how did that work out when attempted.
They PLANNED to blow up the Pentagon, Capital and World Trade Center...while Bill Clinton was in office...what did he do to make them want to "freedom fight" our World Trade Center?
Chris, we ARE on the same side...but giving them propaganda victories does nothing for OUR side...nothing.
Posted by: cf bleachers at October 19, 2006 06:58 PM (V56h2)
11
Don't support CNN. Dry up their money source. Stop buying any product that is advertized on CNN and encourage others not to.E-mail their sponsors and let them know why you will not buy their products. Ask your cable provider to take CNN off.
Stop supporting terrorist and their supporter.
Support our military. Support America.
1st Cav Mom
Posted by: 1st Cav Mom at October 19, 2006 08:19 PM (vFS/o)
12
CNN is owned by Time Warner.
Advise everyone to sell off Time Warner (TWX) stock.
Break their bottom line and they shall listen to the silent majority! We are tired of this anti-American propaganda. Our military families should not see their sons and daughters die on national television.
Stop debating on the authenticity of the videos. Real or fake, get them off of our airwaves you socialists.
SELL OFF TIME WARNER!!
Posted by: pst off at October 19, 2006 09:35 PM (iIIyn)
13
Ted Turner must have finally made up his mind on who he was for in the War on Terror.
I tried to track you back but it didn't work.
http://fishtacostand.blogspot.com/2006/10/ted-turner-must-have-finally-made-up.html
Posted by: Pangloss at October 19, 2006 10:13 PM (tex8j)
14
Chris,
You have fallen right into CNN's pocket by believing that there is no difference between the TERRORISTS and our SOLDIERS. Just because the Caliphate News Network chose only to show the terrorist in only their most positive environment does not mean that is all the terrorists are doing. These same terrorists are the ones who plant bombs on roadsides where children play and murder family members of those who oppose them. Contrast that with our soldiers who take great risk while being shot at to make sure they do not injure the other civilians these terrorists are hiding behind. Any comparison short of contrast is ignorant at best.
Posted by: Francis Marion at October 20, 2006 07:14 AM (lsaBt)
15
When people like Chris make statements like "then failed to even wage it effectively" (the war), they expose themselves as those who miss the point entirely. I believe that the single most contributing factor to the fact that insurgent activities have been as long lived as they have is the complicity of the US media to report on our enemies actions exactly as our enemies predict. It is stated on this blog and anywhere else you care to look that our enemies in Iraq can't win conventional battles with the US. Those in our media are intelligent enough to know this is true. They are the ones who have reported on this repeatedly. It is also a fact that the vast majority of reporters in the media are democrats, liberals and/or leftists (even at Fox). At least every survey I have ever seen indicates this is fact. I have not seen a survey to support this exactly but I would bet that the vast majority of reporters also objected to the Iraq war from the begining and continue to today. So how can any honest analysis of the media's behavior during this conflict not conclude that the way this war is reported on at best promotes our enemies cause just by constantly reporting on every single death, every signle day and at worst adds to the enemies propoganda their own anit-war sentiment thereby magnifying the effectiveness of the enemies only truly effective weapon against us. Heres the deal Chris. I believe our undertaking in Iraq is truly an honorable one. I hope with every fiber of my being that my great nation succeeds in this endeavor and I am sick and tired of beating around the bush with my feelings. I know in which bleacher our media sits and they are betraying us. Take your olive branch and stuff it.
Posted by: Eric at October 20, 2006 09:58 AM (TIhRv)
16
We might not have the same expectations of the media. I expect them to deliver unbiased accounts of current events. That includes both good and bad news. Seems like alot of people here expect them to play the role of cheerleader for the US government, and to refrain from conveying information that portrays our efforts in a negative light. I think its important for the media to stay out of the propaganda business. Its also necessary for the functioning of democracy that the citizens be well informed.
I should mention, I think it is tasteless and inappropriate for CNN to air footage of people killing our soldiers. Especially in light of their normal aversion to showing the true face of war.
Posted by: Chris at October 20, 2006 12:04 PM (0AwzE)
17
I think the CNN (or is that QPN - Qaida Propaganda Network) journalists [sic] need to be brought up on charges of treason, or at least of providing aid and comfort to the enemy. I'm all for freedom of speech, but providing propoganda airtime to the enemy crosses the line. As Rush so ably pointed out, soldiers getting killed during a war is NOT news. What CNN is doing is pure political propaganda.
Posted by: Chuck at October 20, 2006 02:06 PM (Wq/IN)
18
Chris
If you expect the media to "deliver unbiased accounts of (ALL the facts related to) current events...then you must be SORELY disappointed in CNN.
If the media intentionally leaves out important information for the "citizens to be well informed", then they are INTENTIONALLY misleading us....and you would agree THAT is a bastardization of a public trust.
The Mudville Gazette blog posted the below...if you take this as true, chris...CNN is guilty beyond any reasonable alibi, mendacious beyond excuse, evil beyond comparison...don't you agree?
al Qaeda's "Working Paper for a Media Invasion of America" - the Media Responds
I really didn't expect to see the American media even acknowledge the existence of al Qaeda's "Working Paper for a Media Invasion of America", much less to see them openly embrace it. They've done both. (Live and learn.) It started a couple days ago with Tom Friedman's "Tet" column, and continued yesterday with CNN's first release of a made-to-order video from our enemy in Iraq.
Over at Blackfive, a quote from CNN:
CNN has obtained graphic video from the Islamic Army of Iraq, one of the most active insurgent organizations in Iraq, showing its sniper teams targeting U.S. troops. The Islamist Army says it wants talks with the United States and some Islamist Internet postings call for a P.R. campaign aimed at influencing the American public.
But click over to CNN and you won't find that quote on the web site any more.
But James Taranto captured it too, and in fact he screen captured it - "for posterity". A wise choice, given that CNN's acknowledgement that they are aware that they are airing an enemy propaganda piece has since disappeared.
But this one is still there:
From a distance, possibly hundreds of yards away, a sniper watches for his opportunity to strike as a fellow insurgent operates a camera to capture the video for propaganda purposes.
And the quote about the terrorist "P.R. campaign aimed at influencing the American public" is actually heard in the audio narration of the video report itself.
To catch it, we'll go back to Friedman, who says:
A friend at the Pentagon just sent me a post by the “Global Islamic Media Front” carried by the jihadist Web site Ana al-Muslim on Aug. 11. It begins: “The people of jihad need to carry out a media war that is parallel to the military war and exert all possible efforts to wage it successfully. This is because we can observe the effect that the media have on nations to make them either support or reject an issue.”
...the Web site suggests that jihadists flood e-mail and video of their operations to “chat rooms,” “television channels,” and to “famous U.S. authors who have public e-mail addresses ... such as Friedman, Chomsky, Fukuyama, Huntington and others.”
And here's the real connection between the two stories: both Friedman at the Times and the folks at CNN acknowledge their complete awareness that they are fully participating in an enemy propaganda ploy. Freidman says he has a copy, and the CNN video includes clips of what it implies are the original Arabic web postings of the "media jihad" call.
As Taranto says:
By airing this video, CNN is participating in what it acknowledges is "a P.R. campaign aimed at influencing the American public" in ways favorable to America's enemies. And the network does not even seem to realize what a shocking admission this is.
al-Rawi declares the purpose of this campaign is to "throw fear into the American people's hearts", then...
As an example of the sort of video material the group should provide, the author suggests "Video of attacks on US foot patrols with the caption 'Operation against the sons of the US people whom Bush cast into the fire of war against the Muslims'."
Lastly, the paper points out what the author considers the best locations for providing this material, and suggests dissemination via the world wide web, following efforts to ensure the origin can't be traced.
Of course, two of those suggested locations are TV Networks, and Tom Friedman.
Make no mistake about it, CNN is not dismissing the propaganda plot, nor are they presenting their information as an example of the sort of thing we should be aware of and respond to accordingly. In fact, they offer no description of the working paper beyond an acknowledgement of it's existence, perhaps because CNN's own description of the video and how they received it is all too familiar to anyone who has read the document described above. CNN admits they "passed written questions" through "intermediaries" to the terrorist group, and in response received the footage of sniper attacks on American foot patrols, including a "professionally produced" video interview with the insurgent leader in which he answered CNN's questions and denounced "Bush's war fought with taxpayer's money and the blood of Americans". The CNN narrator went the extra mile in reviewing the high-quality production, and lauded the "attention to US domestic politics and public mood" found in this "direct message to the American people."
But like it or not, Mr and Mrs Average American are involved in a propaganda war, the only battle of the war on terror currently being fought on U.S. soil - and those who choose not to be victims of that battle may wonder what the appropriate response should be. Perhaps just this - bear in mind the stated goal: "to throw fear into the American people's hearts", divide and conquer, weaken resolve, and defeat America. Be aware of the plan to reach that goal, and recognize it for what it is when next you see it in action, as you undoubtedly will. (And while you're at it, spread the word - this won't be on the evening news.)
And that newly bolded text is where I admit a failing - never in my wildest imagination did I anticipate the evening news - or one of the named desired participants - mentioning the enemy's propaganda plan while gleefully participating in it.
I'm afraid to ask if they can sink lower.
Posted by: cf bleachers at October 20, 2006 02:07 PM (V56h2)
19
The fact that CNN aired this, shows their treasonous and seditious behavior as a news organization. There is no excuse whatsoever to show this. This tape should have been handed over to the military for observation. With all that was said and done in this video story, you can't help but think that CNN is on the side of the terrorists. If they are not, they need to clean parts of their house that reek of this treachery and disloyalty to their home country. Imagine the family of a dead US soldier seeing this and wondering if this was their son or daughter? The backlash on this video should be enormous. It should set the record straight that you can be an American, you can be an American Journalist, you can be an American News Channel, you can even be critical of our US Army, one thing you can't do is HELP THE ENEMY WIN THEIR PROPOGANDA WAR.
Posted by: Shawn Fairman at October 20, 2006 02:08 PM (RMUE9)
20
I AM sorely disappointed at the general quality of CNN's reporting. And think that when they do mislead the public (frequently, but not always) they abuse the public trust.
I think its questionable that the airing of this video will help the insurgent propaganda cause. When I see people killing (or trying to kill) our soldiers, it does not make me sympathetic to their cause, it makes me want revenge. If the insurgents (and thier allies at CNN as many allege) wanted to influence the American public, they would show the many innocent civilians who are dying in the fighting or the civil disorder that followed. But coverage of the dirty aspects of the war has been minimal in the American media.
I personally haven't seen this footage, and I won't watch it. CNN shouldn't have shown it, what if the soldier's parents saw it? They should have turned it straight over to military intelligence for review. But saying CNN is evil incarnate, is a bit much.
While on average, reporters probably do lean towards the more liberal side (as any college graduate does, statistically speaking), its important to remember that they answer to the large and powerful companies that employ them.
Posted by: Chris at October 20, 2006 02:52 PM (0AwzE)
21
Boycott CNN and Times Warner
They have gone too far in:
1. Working directly with the enemy
2. Twisting the news to their politics
3. Giving aid to the enemy
4. Being there when Americas were killed
Isn't that Treason?
Posted by: Nathan at October 20, 2006 04:04 PM (OdwrM)
22
Most Americans Identify as Either Conservative or Moderate
Gallup News Service ^ | November 11, 2003 | Frank Newport, PhD
Posted on 11/11/2003 12:36:27 AM PST by RWR8189
Actually, Chris...most college graduates (statistically speaking)don't lean liberal at all. That's a liberal myth. (as is the myth that anyone who doesn't agree with the liberal agenda is "too stupid" to know better).
The largest growing percentage...are people in center field. But since liberals have owned the propaganda game for the last 40 years...they have people brainwashed into believing that they and only they...are the "holders of intellectual superiority". It's a load of horsehockey.
I've enjoyed our chat...now on to other matters.
The American population can be classified into political subgroups in a variety of ways. Partisan identification -- the way in which the public identifies with the major political parties -- is the most common of these. Although the pattern of party identification has changed over time, and indeed varies from month to month in some instances, one short-hand way of approximating where the public stands is to say that roughly a third of the population tends to identify as Democrat, a third as Republican, and a third as independent.
Ideology -- self-identification as liberal, conservative, or moderate -- is the other major way in which the public can be politically segmented. Because Republicans tend to be associated with conservative causes, and Democrats with liberal causes, one might assume that about a third of the population is conservative, a third liberal, and a third in the middle.
That's not the case, however. The American public is significantly more likely to identify as conservative or moderate than as liberal, leaving a situation in which about 4 in 10 Americans call themselves conservative, 4 in 10 call themselves moderates, and only about 2 in 10 call themselves liberal.
There have been some very slight changes in these patterns over the last four years, with Americans a little more likely to be conservative in October and early November of this year, but the basic pattern has remained remarkably stable:
Americans' Ideology
Identification as Conservative, Moderate, or Liberal
Conservative
Moderate
Liberal
%
%
%
2003 Oct/Nov
41
39
19
2002 Oct
38
39
19
2001 Oct
38
40
19
2000 Oct
37
42
20
The data in the table below display the breakdown of ideology within various subgroups of the American population, based on a combined sample of 4,036 interviews conducted in October and early November 2003: Ideology by Demographic Subgroups
Based on Gallup Polls Conducted in October and November 2003
Conservative
Moderate
Liberal
N=
%
%
%
Total
41
39
19
4,036
Men
44
39
16
1,928
Women
39
39
21
2,108
Approve of Bush
55
35
9
2,194
Disapprove of Bush
23
44
32
1,689
East
35
43
22
919
Midwest
44
37
18
933
South
44
38
18
1,293
West
40
39
19
888
Whites
43
38
18
3,175
Blacks
30
47
22
440
White Easterners
36
44
20
764
White Midwesterners
44
38
17
822
White Southerners
49
33
17
989
White Westerners
43
37
20
668
High school diploma or less
42
41
16
1,573
Some college education
45
37
18
1,316
College graduate
39
39
21
557
Postgraduate education
31
41
28
577
Republicans
70
26
4
1,307
Independents
29
47
22
1,521
Democrats
25
43
31
1,193
18- to 29-year-olds
32
40
27
762
30- to 49-year-olds
42
39
19
1,625
50- to 64-year-olds
42
40
18
901
65 years and older
47
40
11
719
18- to 38-years-old
35
39
25
1,216
39- to 57-years-old
40
40
20
1,592
58 years and older
47
39
14
1,226
Men, aged 18 to 49
42
39
18
1,180
Men, aged 50 and older
46
40
13
739
Women, aged 18 to 49
35
39
25
1,209
Women, aged 50 and older
43
40
17
881
Less than $20,000 per year
36
42
21
562
$20,000-$29,999 per year
38
43
19
591
$30,000-$49,999 per year
40
40
19
1,066
$50,000-$74,999 per year
46
38
17
686
$75,000 per year and more
42
37
21
909
White Republicans
64
31
5
1,698
White Democrats
20
44
36
1,282
Black Democrats
27
49
24
238
Several key points arise from a consideration of these data:
There are no subgroups (among those included in this analysis) among whom identification as "liberal" is higher than 36%, suggesting that the liberal "brand" remains distinctly a minority in American culture today. Of particular interest is the fact that only 31% of Democrats say they are "liberal." About one in four Democrats identifies as "conservative," while the remaining 43% identify as moderate. This contrasts with the 70% of Republicans who identify themselves as conservative.
Whites are more likely to identify themselves as conservatives than are blacks, which isn't necessarily surprising. But blacks are not disproportionately liberal. Instead, almost half of blacks identify as moderate, with 30% saying they are conservative and just 22% as liberal.
An interesting pattern develops when we look at the interaction of race and party identification. Black Democrats are actually slightly more conservative than white Democrats are, and decidedly less liberal.
This most probably reflects the fact -- confirmed in previous Gallup Poll research -- that blacks are actually quite conservative on a number of moral issues including homosexual marriage and abortion, despite being quite liberal in their orientation to social issues such as gun control, affirmative action, and welfare. This in turn is almost certainly a result of the high levels of religiosity among blacks in American society, an orientation that pulls blacks away from traditional Democratic views on social issues and puts them closer to the position of white, conservative Republicans.
Americans with postgraduate educations are more likely to identify themselves as liberal than those with lower levels of educational attainment are. In fact, this highly educated group is more liberal than any subgroup looked at in this analysis other than Democrats and those who disapprove of the way George W. Bush is handling his job as president.
There has been a great deal of attention focused on the baby boom generation, the large group of Americans born between 1946 and 1964 (and a group in which the last two presidents have been members). In sheer numbers alone, baby boomers are a significant slice of the demographic pie and thus a potent political force. But the analysis shows that baby boomers are actually ideologically quite similar to the overall adult population in this country. Baby boomers are more conservative than those who are younger, and less conservative than those who are older.
In fact, the interesting distinction in ideology occurs between the youngest group of Americans, those aged 18 to 29, and the oldest, those 65 and older. The former are less likely than average to identify as conservative and more likely to identify as liberal, while the older group is more likely to be conservative and less likely to be liberal.
Men are slightly more conservative and less likely to be liberal than are women. More broadly, 18- to 49-year-old women are less conservative than other age/gender groups in American society today.
Conservatism is slightly higher in the South and Midwest and slightly lower in the East. This pattern is particularly pronounced among whites. Forty-nine percent of white Southerners are conservative, providing a sharp contrast to the significantly lower 36% of white Easterners who are conservative. Easterners tend to be more moderate in their ideological orientation.
There has been much discussion in recent years about the success of talk radio shows and other media programming focused on a more conservative audience. Commentators often ask why liberal media have been much less successful in creating such programs aimed at their constituency. These data help explain this phenomenon. There simply aren't as many liberals as conservatives.
The Democratic Party is going through the throes of selecting its presidential nominee, and some analysts see former Vermont Gov. Howard Dean as one of the front-runners, based in part on his outspoken opposition to U.S. involvement in Iraq -- a decidedly liberal position. At the same time, it has been pointed out that Dean was more moderate in some of his social positions while governor. The data reviewed here, showing that even a significant majority of Democrats identify as conservative or moderate, certainly suggest that Dean (or whoever the Democratic nominee turns out to be) would do well to position themselves more in the middle of the road, and to avoid being typecast as a liberal. Certainly the data suggest that a presidential candidate who appeals to conservative or moderate voters will have a larger constituency than one who is identified as a liberal.
Posted by: cf bleachers at October 20, 2006 04:14 PM (V56h2)
23
I love numbers. You make a persuesive case, CF, I stand corrected. It would have been more accurate for me to say something like "reporters, like any college graduate, have an increased likelyhood of being liberals".
One issue with the study is that people self-identify as liberals, rather than being categorized as such by their positions. This is an issue, because the right has been very effective at making the word a perjorative. Take this blog, for instance - who wants to volunteer themselves to be in a persistant vegetive state? But no poll's methods are perfect, and that seems like reasonable accurate data.
It is interesting to note the differences in political affiliation based on education. People with post-grad degrees are almost twice as likely to call themselves liberal as somebody with a HS diploma. It's also interesting to note that the amount of people that categorize themselves as moderate is about the same at all educational levels (between 37-41%). I suppose the decreasing amount of conservatives as education increases are conservatives becoming moderates, while moderates are becoming liberals.
Nathan: while treason is a pretty serious charge, it almost never gets prosecuted. In the history of the United States there have been fewer than 40 federal prosecutions for treason and even fewer convictions. However, many acts have occurred that are arguably treasonous. Take for instance, Ronald Reagan, negotiating secretly with Iran to delay the release of the hostages until after the 1980 election, and later paying them off with arms funneled thru the contras. Interfereing with an election, negotiating treaties while not being the legitimate government, and actually arming our enemies - pretty serious stuff.
Posted by: Chris at October 20, 2006 05:25 PM (0AwzE)
24
LOL, Chris. I guess my reading on the subject would be...if you want to find an educated man or woman with whom to discuss a subject...who isn't going to know what their answer will be BEFORE they hear the facts...you might want to seek out someone in the middle.
Your best chances of finding an educated person in that scenario...is to find a moderate. Your least likely...is to find a liberal, at least statistically speaking. LOL
And, reporters are more liberal...out of all likelihood statistically...than the representative number of people with college or post graduate degrees capable of performing that job. (as it is with actors, professors and NYTimes, Newsweek, Washington Post writers).
That seems to me to suggest that it is not education that is driving the hiring process in those professions. Nor talent. But rather...adherence to dogma.
If hiring in those professions was statistically fair and balanced...so would go the presentations by a more honest and honorable media. Instead, they "cheat the truth" according to their ingrained bias.
College graduate
39
39
21
Postgraduate education
31
41
28
Posted by: cf bleachers at October 20, 2006 06:04 PM (V56h2)
25
Please explain if you all will what the difference is between CNN airing Al Qaeda propaganda videos of attacks on our troops and the Republican National Committee airing political ads containing Al Qaeda videos of attacks on our troops?
I can't wait to hear the torturted logic on this one.
Posted by: TD Larkin at October 21, 2006 05:03 PM (BXNs8)
26
Good article folks-- I'm just browsing the internet finding blogs on this subject and voicing my opinion that CNN is the scum of the earth and deserves to lose their broadcast liscence over this. Thank you for bringing this despicable topic to the attention of the public to let them know how derranged and vile CNN really is! CNN thinks the fact that some emailers with equally foul ethics agreeing with them gives them liscence to post their garbage on the internet. CNN will justify selling out American soldiers and their families with a gusto that turns the stomach every time!
You can read my rant on the subject at:
Read more at
target="_blank">sacredscoop.com ...
Posted by: Nazareth at October 21, 2006 10:13 PM (f8md8)
27
"Freedom Fighters" put up place and cause and give those things necessary to be seen as legitimate: they put on uniforms, have accountable command structure, have clearly identified law they adhere to and are accountable to, they take prisoners and hold them honorably, and they plant a flag in some place and declare their new way of doing things. Even Castro *did* that. Che Guevara tried and *failed*, terminally. "Freedom Fighters" are offering a NEW NATION and doing things to adhere to the Nation State structure.
All of this grew out of the Peace of Westphalia and is long and centuries defined diplomatic understanding to *have* legitimacy. By putting on no uniform, flying no flag, having no accountability structure, adhering to no law or treaty, defining no place which they are fighting *for* and *protecting* the people under their rule, terrorists are NOT equivalent to National Armed Forces of a Nation State.
In previous centuries these sorts of individuals went under different guises and names, based on what they were doing: outlaws, brigands, pirates, and barbarians. There is zero equivalency between them and National Armed Forces of *any* Nation State. The entry to legitimacy are simple, well understood and relatively easy in concept while extremely difficult in practice. By trying to establish a *real* Nation you put down roots, new government, accountability, and offer protection to those people under your authority. It also means you can be targeted and defeated by National Armed Forces.
Thems the breaks.
No spin is needed on the Republican ad as it shows us an adversary that respects NO law, often not even the one they putatively fight for, and that respects NO Nation and, in point of fact, is aiming to bring down the entire system of Nation States that have developed since Westphalia. They wish to put in place this thing called an Empire by breaking down Nation States in any way they can until they can get them to the smallest possible size they can influence and then take over. That means they are breaking with the agreement amongst Nations that Nations, no matter how vile they are to their own people, are the legitimate Sovereign entity on the global scale.
If you draw equivalence with terrorists seeking Empire and give them aid and comfort you are supporting the destruction of the entire system that has, within its conceptual space, the ability to provide things like liberty and freedom to individuals. No Empire has ever been invented that has that within its conception and ALL have sought ways to *rule* not *govern*.
If you enjoy your rights, as an individual, then you will give high praise to *anyone* that fights this new breed of imperialist looking to destroy Nations and the concept of Nations. You will back them *fully* because defeat in this war recognizes no boundaries because the enemy does not recognize them nor give them legitimacy. Unlike the 'tit for tat' of the Cold War the USSR recognized the validity of Nations and worked with those confines to take over Nations. The current enemy wishes to *dissolve* Nations into chaotic, regional groups that can then be taken over piecemeal and formed into an Empire. An Empire that will not stop until it encompasses the world. That is their stated aim, their stated goal and their activities for the past decades gives rise to exactly that.
If you are worried about partisan 'spin' or wondering 'why they hate us', then perhaps you should be asking yourself: what is it that I find worth dying for? In 1775 that answer was clear to those who founded the United States. Fully 10% of the population as a *whole* died to establish a Nation to give rise to the rights of the individual which are enjoyed within its confines and respected there. Giving *any* equivalency to terrorists is recognizing that you do not WANT Nation States, that Nations offer you *nothing* and that you are ready to be enslaved by the enemy when they come to *your* doorstep because they are *exactly equal* in your mind. That is where that mindset leads to and it is 'Newspeak' at its core.
That is why CNN giving any legitimacy to them and *not* putting it in the context of exactly *what* the goals and aims of the enemy, as they have stated ARE, is repugnant. They are abhorrent as they are giving 'free air time' to an imperial mindset looking to take over the world. And if you do not want to stop them now, during the best fought, best run and *cheapest* war the US has ever run with the greatest impact, then when, exactly, ARE YOU willing to say it is worth fighting? I suggest your doorstep is a bit too close, or mine, or that of the Nation. Unfortunately we have *also* let them in freely and unaccountably. Actively fighting them overseas *now* will prevent their ideology from metastasizing even more by giving firm foundations to individuals, freedom and liberty in lands where it has been oppressed for centuries. It will give rise to legitimate Nations that will take up the fight to remain independent, remain free so that they may have their own government and be held accountable for their actions against other Nations.
It is not a *perfect* system but it has one thing going for it: it works and gives rise to the possiblity of individual freedom. That is why Citizens are tasked to form a 'more perfect Union' because it will *always* have to be worked at and it is hard work to have a Nation worth having.
Their system also works, and is *perfect*: it ends rights for *everyone* equally so that you only get what is given to you. Complaining gets you killed, in this *perfect* system, but then it is *perfect* and respects *no* differences equally. No work required, just obedience.
I find the former honorable and civilized, and the latter dishonorable and barbaric.
You may form your own opinion.
Your life actually does depend upon you making the right choice because of the nature and outlook enemy that targets us.
Posted by: ajacksonian at October 22, 2006 06:15 AM (VLjJI)
28
"Please explain if you all will what the difference is between CNN airing Al Qaeda propaganda videos of attacks on our troops and the Republican National Committee airing political ads containing Al Qaeda videos of attacks on our troops?"
Why, it's simple TD. Liberals will turn away in disgust from the latter and applaud the former.
"I can't wait to hear the torturted logic on this one."
Me neither.
Posted by: cf bleachers at October 22, 2006 09:07 AM (V56h2)
29
Seems simple to me. Bias,notwithstanding, Fox is
kicking CNN's ass. Desperate people do desperate
things. Marvin Kalb went to great lenghts on Fox
yesterday vigiorously defending CNN.
I am sick of "reporters", "journalists"
and "commentators" using the "doing my job"
"peoples right to know", sanctimony to justify their manufactured "news" and sensational show
biz offerings without regard for context, truth,
or negative effects. Do you still beat your wife?
Posted by: larry larkin at October 22, 2006 10:17 AM (5Kkkc)
30
Just like you sick Communist wife Jungle Jane.
Why not follow in your fathers footsteps and help America.
Dave
Posted by: Dave at October 23, 2006 10:42 AM (4dX9k)
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October 18, 2006
Johns Hopkins/Lancet Study Demolished
Via Bryan at Hot Air, the politically-timed Johns Hopkins/Lancet study stating that more than 655,000 Iraqis have died as a result of the Iraq War has had its very suspect methodology thoroughly crushed:
After doing survey research in Iraq for nearly two years, I was surprised to read that a study by a group from Johns Hopkins University claims that 655,000 Iraqis have died as a result of the war. Don't get me wrong, there have been far too many deaths in Iraq by anyone's measure; some of them have been friends of mine. But the Johns Hopkins tally is wildly at odds with any numbers I have seen in that country. Survey results frequently have a margin of error of plus or minus 3% or 5%--not 1200%.
The group--associated with the Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health--employed cluster sampling for in-person interviews, which is the methodology that I and most researchers use in developing countries. Here, in the U.S., opinion surveys often use telephone polls, selecting individuals at random. But for a country lacking in telephone penetration, door-to-door interviews are required: Neighborhoods are selected at random, and then individuals are selected at random in "clusters" within each neighborhood for door-to-door interviews. Without cluster sampling, the expense and time associated with travel would make in-person interviewing virtually impossible.
However, the key to the validity of cluster sampling is to use enough cluster points. In their 2006 report, "Mortality after the 2003 invasion of Iraq: a cross-sectional sample survey," the Johns Hopkins team says it used 47 cluster points for their sample of 1,849 interviews. This is astonishing: I wouldn't survey a junior high school, no less an entire country, using only 47 cluster points.
Neither would anyone else. For its 2004 survey of Iraq, the United Nations Development Program (UNDP) used 2,200 cluster points of 10 interviews each for a total sample of 21,688. True, interviews are expensive and not everyone has the U.N.'s bank account. However, even for a similarly sized sample, that is an extraordinarily small number of cluster points. A 2005 survey conducted by ABC News, Time magazine, the BBC, NHK and Der Spiegel used 135 cluster points with a sample size of 1,711--almost three times that of the Johns Hopkins team for 93% of the sample size.
Since the beginning, Les Roberts, one of the primary authors of the study has mantained that the study is methodologically sound.
Uh, not quite:
Curious about the kind of people who would have the chutzpah to claim to a national audience that this kind of research was methodologically sound, I contacted Johns Hopkins University and was referred to Les Roberts, one of the primary authors of the study. Dr. Roberts defended his 47 cluster points, saying that this was standard. I'm not sure whose standards these are.
Appendix A of the Johns Hopkins survey, for example, cites several other studies of mortality in war zones, and uses the citations to validate the group's use of cluster sampling. One study is by the International Rescue Committee in the Democratic Republic of Congo, which used 750 cluster points. Harvard's School of Public Health, in a 1992 survey of Iraq, used 271 cluster points. Another study in Kosovo cites the use of 50 cluster points, but this was for a population of just 1.6 million, compared to Iraq's 27 million.
When I pointed out these numbers to Dr. Roberts, he said that the appendices were written by a student and should be ignored. Which led me to wonder what other sections of the survey should be ignored.
With so few cluster points, it is highly unlikely the Johns Hopkins survey is representative of the population in Iraq. However, there is a definitive method of establishing if it is. Recording the gender, age, education and other demographic characteristics of the respondents allows a researcher to compare his survey results to a known demographic instrument, such as a census.
Dr. Roberts said that his team's surveyors did not ask demographic questions. I was so surprised to hear this that I emailed him later in the day to ask a second time if his team asked demographic questions and compared the results to the 1997 Iraqi census. Dr. Roberts replied that he had not even looked at the Iraqi census.
And so, while the gender and the age of the deceased were recorded in the 2006 Johns Hopkins study, nobody, according to Dr. Roberts, recorded demographic information for the living survey respondents. This would be the first survey I have looked at in my 15 years of looking that did not ask demographic questions of its respondents. But don't take my word for it--try using Google to find a survey that does not ask demographic questions.
Reviews of the Johns Hopkins/Lancet study casts strong doubts upon the credibility of the methodology used. When compared to other studies, I’d venture to say that the Johns Hopkins study is worthless and irreproducible, perhaps purposefully so. The timing of the report, once again issued in the weeks preceding a national election, casts strong doubts upon the intentions, credibility, and integrity of the researchers.
Then again, their
campaign contributions and
affiliations should have tipped you to their biases long ago.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
11:07 AM
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1
With such wonderful standards, I am doubly glad my son chose a state school over this supposed elite university. (My first happiness in his choice is in not paying over $40K per year.)
Posted by: MikeM at October 18, 2006 11:24 AM (Lz4EE)
2
You have the right to block trolls. Enjoy living in a world where everyone agrees with you.
Anne Johnson
Posted by: pretty girl at October 18, 2006 11:56 AM (BvEoi)
3
Why does the phrase "cluster f*ck" come to mind?
Posted by: Redhand at October 18, 2006 12:12 PM (7G9b2)
4
Gee Anne, doesn't sound like you're too happy living in a world where everyone agrees with you....
Doesn't sound like you're too happy when people disagree with you.
Doesn't sound like you're too happy at all.
Posted by: SouthernRoots at October 18, 2006 12:18 PM (jHBWL)
5
Wow, the author's credentials are certainly unassailable:
Mr. Moore, a political consultant with Gorton Moore International, trained Iraqi researchers for the International Republican Institute from 2003 to 2004 and conducted survey research for the Coalition Forces from 2005 to 2006.
Try again, brownshirts...
Posted by: dave™© at October 18, 2006 12:29 PM (pMgvj)
6
Well, I'm going to back down here. Not because of Steven Moore, who is either manic compulsive or prone to exaggeration if he "wouldn't survey a junior high school, no less an entire country, using only 47 cluster points". But the IBC have released a statement which gives far better arguments than asserting that so many people couldn't have died because it's more than died in the American civil war or other rubbish:One possible way of explaining such a very large number of small-scale unreported assaults is to suppose that many of these are the result of "secret" killings which have resulted from abduction, execution by gunfire, or beheading. But 42% of the 330,000 Lancet-estimated violent deaths in this final 13-month period are ascribed to "explosives/ordnance", car bombs, or air strikes, all of which carry a fairly heavy and hardly 'secret' toll (and will generally create at least 3 times as many wounded).They're right: the IBC might not pick up anonymous murders, but they would indeed pick up car bombs.
Of course, as everyone sensible in this debate (including myself) have done up to now, they continue the grand tradition of qualifying their remarks by saying that they haven't proved that the figures are wrong. The IBC numbers are also inaccurate, and they acknowledge this fact. And I still want to know about excess deaths, and the Lancet survey was the first to make the attempt. Unfortunately, it looks like I'm still waiting to hear a credible answer to my question.
Posted by: Mat at October 18, 2006 12:31 PM (A/DgZ)
7
SouthernRoots' comment prompted me to click Anne's Pretty Girl. It is definitely worth a look.
Posted by: Redhand at October 18, 2006 12:42 PM (7G9b2)
8
Well, the way I linked to to Anne Johnson's site triggered some kind of censorship. I'll simply say that Anne's link is to the gateway to "An Interfaith Sanctuary of EarthReligion." Can't say that I've seen anything quite like it before.
Posted by: Redhand at October 18, 2006 12:51 PM (7G9b2)
9
"Wow, the author's credentials are certainly unassailable...Try again brownshirts..."
Iraq Body Count, often criticized for offering inflated civilian death figures, in their Press Release 16 October 2006 thinks the Lancet study is garbage too.
"In the light of such extreme and improbable implications, a rational alternative conclusion to be considered is that the authors have drawn conclusions from unrepresentative data."
Was this a better try, pinkshirts...?
(What is this "brownshirts" crap? Haven't the Hitler allusions been worked to death?)
http://www.iraqbodycount.org/press/pr14.php
Posted by: Major Mike at October 18, 2006 12:54 PM (OhRzl)
10
Major Mike, no doubt, would also agree with the broader assessment of IBC:
Do the American people need to believe that 600,000 Iraqis have been killed before they can turn to their leaders and say "enough is enough"? The number of certain civilian deaths that has been documented to a basic standard of corroboration by "passive surveillance methods" surely already provides all the necessary evidence to deem this invasion and occupation an utter failure at all levels.
Posted by: d at October 18, 2006 01:28 PM (LHK5X)
11
Either way, while I supported the war, as it turned out, it isn't going to turn out well. It was a 'bridge to far'.
Posted by: HLT at October 18, 2006 02:10 PM (FlyzA)
12
I agree it is sad when innocent people are killed. I think we saved, are saving, and in the future will have saved a lot of innocent lives by fighting in Iraq, and in Afghanistan.
Muslims have killed Muslims and others whether religious or not all over the world in great numbers, regardless of our actions in Iraq. We will stay in Iraq and persevere, and Iraq will be the domino that fell and led to the end of Muslim violence.
Appeasement of violence only leads to uncontrolled violence and greater suffering. Where in recent history has weakness brought lasting peace?
Posted by: Major Mike at October 18, 2006 03:28 PM (OhRzl)
13
It is obvious the Lancet study is propaganda, only a fool would not see it. As for credentials, what are Roberts's credentials? He has made no secret of his bias and if this study is an example of his skill I would say he needs to get in a new line of work. It seems that a lot more people are saying this study is bogus than are supporting it, well except for the hopelessly deranged anyway.
It is interesting how certain people on the left can only be concerned with the deaths of Iraqis if and when they think they can use those deaths for some political purpose. We all know that if Saddam was in power he could have wiede half the population off the map without a peep out of these people.
The numbers are simply outrageous. I think that 50,000 dead Iraqis is bad enough in and of itself. I guess some people think otherwise so they created a few hundred thousand more.
Posted by: Terrye at October 18, 2006 05:28 PM (XS1Do)
14
A few hundred thousand with an margin of error of plus or minus 600,000. Real Science....LOL
Posted by: Specter at October 19, 2006 06:52 AM (ybfXM)
15
Has anyone stopped to think how on the face of it this number is entirely implausible? First, where are the fresh graves? There should be 654,000 individual fresh graves (as opposed to mass graves under Saddam's regime).
Second, the rule of thumb is for every war death there are typically three times the number of wounded. This would mean something like 2 million Iraqis would have flooded hospitals throughout Iraq suffering clear war wounds. Maybe they have, I haven't heard if this is case.
Last. American forces have been in Iraq for a little over 3.5 years. Let's say for the sake of argument (civilians haven't been targetted throughout this entire period so cut me some slack here) that there has been this violence directed at Iraqi civilians for roughly a 1000 days. This would mean there would have to be 655 innocent Iraqi civilians killed EVERY DAY.
If there had been 100 Iraqi civilians killed every day for a thousand days, this would have been splashed as headline news all over the liberal media for those thousand days. This stuff about "secret" killings is just mere sophistry. May as well claim most of the Iraqis are being secretly killed by space aliens for some perverse experiment only known to them.
You liberals know as well as I do, that casualty rates are ALWAYS INFLATED, particularly in Muslim communities who are PR savvy and now aided and abetted by anti-war westerners. And you also know that the average civilian deaths as reported by a media just itching to ratchet up the death rate (even Iraqi hospital records and anectdotal reflections by hospital officials are notoriously unreliable and on the high side) has been somewhere around 25-30 "civilian" deaths a day for the last 18 months. That is roughly around 15,000 deaths. And it is well known that many "civilian casualties" consist of Muslim males in militias or freelancing and are killed by Coaltion forces in gunbattles. Other than the truly innocent women and children caught in between gunfire and IEDs, the radical Muslim male deaths in sectarian violence in Iraq is little different than gangland turf battles here in America ... good riddance.
And there is little doubt the overwhelmingly vast majority of innocent civilian deaths are a result of Muslim on Muslim violence. And blaming this religious sectarian violence on the American presence is like invoking the Great Satan America-made-me-do-it argument - and the devil made me do it argument has never washed with me.
You don't blame doctors for the spread of cancer when they do find cancer and try to treat it.
Posted by: Hankmeister at October 19, 2006 08:32 AM (7lz6g)
16
If we leave it to memory, then all we'll have is the newspaper "of record" in the really long term. How many blogs will come and go who diligently exposed the lies and omissions of the NYT, yet what counts in the long term is where someone goes for "the record", and if you carefully deconstruct the NYT articles, the most biased part is in the headlines and the first paragraph, sometimes continuing on in subsequent paragraphs until the end where they sometimes do a 180 degree turn and admit to economic numbers they denied in the first 80% of the article, saying how bad other things are when most other newspapers just report the economic numbers. This is deliberate because the articles are archived in the NYT by title and first paragraph or first two paragraphs from the article so you can decide whether to "purchase" the past news.
So, going back to memory, since I can't find the article, my computer must have went down before I had a chance to archive the article(s) a couple of years ago... during the previous election two years ago, Lancet, from memory, pulled the same stunt. Don't know if it was the same authors, the same school, but Lancet, from memory, was involved. At that time, again, some time before the election, they came out with a study that was repeated in the left wing blogs ad nauseam, where some 100,000 Iraqi civilians had been killed in the first year, or beginning of the war. The 100,000 number was touted on DailyCows, probably Communist Underground, and many, many more left wing and extremist blogs. And they succeeded in getting the fiction into letters to the editor. Except someone experienced in statistics and surveys took a close look at the survey that was performed, and from what I remember it was performed in the same way as this current one, by interviews and unsubstantiated by other methods with one excuse being the "danger" involved in verifying the numbers mostly collected by Iraqis. But the real kicker was that the person who took a look at the number of 100,000 also took a look at the statistical error probability, error rate, whatever its called in statistics. It turns out the model they used would have made 5,000 just as accurate as 100,000, just as accurate as a much higher number, and all they did was take the high number, or the middle number, and claim that that was the correct number. So in the survey two years ago by Lancet on Iraqi deaths because of the war, it would have been just as accurate according to the statistical methodology they used, for them to claim that 5,000 deaths resulted, as it was for them to claim what they really claimed, that 100,000 deaths resulted.
Again, someone, possibly a professor from another school, took a close look at the numbers, methodology, probability, error rate and everything else you look at to see if the survey stands up, and he found that the survey did not stand up unless 5,000 deaths was included as just as possible and just as precise as the 100,000 deaths figure. But this revelation didn't matter. NYT, the left wing blogs, Reuters, AP, AFP, and letters to the editor all ran with the 100,000 deaths number and no one issued a correction, other than the middle of the road and right wing blogs who picked up on the professor's comments.
Maybe someone can find a link to the two year old Lancet study being debunked. I failed to archive the article, and a later exhaustive google search two years ago failed to find the article again. Someone well versed in searching with google may be able to find the old Lancet study and the article debunking it.
Posted by: Jeau L'expose at October 19, 2006 01:08 PM (5hfWV)
17
As a matter of fact, I'm quite happy indeed. It's all those lazy summer afternoons at the InterFaith Sanctuary, I guess. Does a body good.
Anne Johnson
B.A. The Johns Hopkins University, 1981
Posted by: gorgeous babe at October 19, 2006 03:18 PM (BvEoi)
18
Jl,
I think this article may be referencing the survey of which you were speaking:
THE LANCET STUDY FINDING 100,000 CIVILIAN CASUALTIES: ANOTHER TAKE www.rantingprofs.com/rantingprofs/2004/10/the_lancet_stud.html
It is relative to note that the Iraqi city of Falluja was included in their sample.
Thank you for mentioning this survey. I had forgotten about it. These lancet surveys bring to mind my mom's oft quoted.. "fool me once, shame on you... fool me twice, shame on me... "
Posted by: MOPI at October 19, 2006 06:14 PM (TaAgJ)
19
Oh, so if Johns Hopkins is wrong and the Dear Leader and the PNACers have only helped kill, say, 300,000 people, that's something to be proud of? No wonder your party is about to be cast upon the ash heap of history. See you November 7th!
Posted by: blogenfreude at October 22, 2006 06:05 PM (lCFxJ)
20
Whatever the number of Iraqis slaughtered by Bush and his neo-con warmongers, it is a tragedy unprecedented in the history of our once free and great republic.
Posted by: jose at October 24, 2006 05:55 PM (L4N8t)
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More Cowbell: Dow Tops 12,000 for First Time Under Bush
"It's the economy, Stupid."
Via—where else?—
Fox News:
The Dow Jones industrial average swept past 12,000 for the first time Wednesday, extending its march into record territory as investors signaled their growing optimism about corporate earnings and the economy.
The index of 30 big-name stocks surpassed 12,000 just after trading began, having already set closing records seven times over the past two weeks. It took the Dow 7 1/2 years to make the trip from 11,000, having been pummeled during that time by the dot-com bust, recession and the aftermath of the 2001 terror attacks.
Funny how those "tax cuts for the rich" seem to be stimulating the economy for the entire nation. These are tax cuts that Democrat Charles Rangel said
don't "merit renewal."
Of course, Rangel isn't content to just end the tax cuts that have stimulated the economy to these record-breaking levels;
he wants to raise your taxes.
All of your taxes. Across the board, "no question about it."
Expect all of the tax cuts to end, and for this booming economy to tank,
if Democrats win the House of Representatives on Nov. 7.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
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1
Wow, 30 hand-picked stocks hit where they were 6 years ago, which is actually 20% lower than their previous high due to inflation, and we should cheer?
Last I checked, the NASDAQ is about at 1/3 of its high under Bubba...
Posted by: monkyboy at October 18, 2006 10:21 AM (unUeA)
2
The Democrats under Clinton are the party of fiscal responsibility, while the Republicans under Reagan and Bush II are the party of debt and deficits.
Posted by: Jim Hudson at October 18, 2006 11:04 AM (wTPYp)
3
Monkyboy took my words, but I will be positive and say I am very happy the market is going in a positive direction.
After two side-by-side decades, Democrats clearly prove they handle the issues of budgeting and economy better by far.
I will predict a correction in the fourth quarter, mainly after the elections. Wallstreet does not like change, even if it is for the longterm good. You have to remember that Wallstreet's time horizon is strictly by quarter, which is probably the downfall of our whole country (always short-minded thinking in terms of 3 months, a year at best).
Time for some change.
Posted by: Johnny at October 18, 2006 12:45 PM (jmvhP)
4
Can somebody explain this in english?
It means big corporations are getting rich, right?
Are they the entire nation?
Isn't the nation in debt?
Posted by: dzhemi at October 18, 2006 03:56 PM (jb33V)
5
I don't think Bubba and the Dems have a clue but I don't think big business is a good answer. It is small business health which makes a good economy. If the Dems got behind small business I might give a listen, but raising taxes to support freeloaders doesn't make sense. Sorry Bubba.
Posted by: Greg Hoose at October 18, 2006 05:07 PM (f+JQl)
6
Only about 1500 more points until we're back to where we were before Bush became president (adjusted for inflation).
Posted by: jpe at October 18, 2006 05:10 PM (5ceWd)
7
Last I checked, the NASDAQ is about at 1/3 of its high under Bubba...
Yea, that unrealistic dotcom bubble and subsequent bust was a real good thing.
Posted by: Purple Avenger at October 18, 2006 05:15 PM (k5pDn)
8
Why were the declining economy and rising gas prices both blamed on G.W.B. while in the reverse, no credit is given? Is it that he really may not have had much to do with either one?
Let's just hope that this situation continues for a good long while.
Woody
Posted by: Oran R. Woody at October 18, 2006 07:37 PM (/4LgL)
9
I was wondering why everyone was lying and then up popped jpe, adjusted for inflation. Another case of figures don't lie but liars figure. Do you know anyone that lost their a** under Slick Willie when they discovered that a hundred or so major 'money movers' had two sets of books? (Worldcom showed Billions of dollars on the books and I had more in my checking account than those criminals left in the entire corporation.) I know a few who lost their a**, and they have now got back what they lost and made money. Too most of the elderly who lost their a** to Slick's con weren't able to keep working and build their funds back during an honest stock market, well almost honest. There are still some 'slick' era hangerson that are ripping people off.
Why do the democrats keep lying when every 'honest person' in America knows the economy is roaring and the democrats are lying?
I'm looking forward to a 25% tax increase, 10% unemployment and a stock market crash.
Democrats new motto: We're going to take it away from you for the 'common good'. What a bunch of a**wipes.
Posted by: Scrapiron at October 18, 2006 07:44 PM (vFS/o)
10
"The Democrats under Clinton are the party of fiscal responsibility, while the Republicans under Reagan and Bush II are the party of debt and deficits."
Reagan took down the Commies. Bush is trying to take down Islamofascism. Who did Bubba go down on?
Posted by: some guy at October 19, 2006 11:18 AM (reAci)
11
Woody is right. Plus, if the Dow were at, say, 7800 and not improved much since Fall '01 (when investors panicked for no reason) it would be a non-stop barrage of headlines blaming Bush. Instead, the MSM needs to make up things to blame Bush for. Unemployment in the 00's is lower than it was in the 90's. I saw that consumer prices were down - the article was buried on the last page of the business section of my local paper. I seem to recall that when they rise, it's on page A1 of that same paper; or any paper for that matter.
By the way, when was the last time anyone heard the word "hurricane" in the news? haha. In May and June, that's all we heard. What happened? Maybe we should ask that hurricane and structural engineer expert, Spike Lee.
Posted by: bws53 at October 19, 2006 07:37 PM (ncxe0)
12
If the entire nation is in debt that should be good news because the big, evil, predatory lending practicing, credit card companies will lose and lose big when people start defaulting and filling for personal bankruptcy. This is good for the Democrats because, then, maybe the big credit card companies like Citigroup (I can't name any others because I have no CC debt because I'm smart) will have to lay off people if their profits decline; like they hope will happen to ExxonMobil. The Democratic party's ideal - the cycle of dependency - might pick back up again.
Posted by: bws53 at October 19, 2006 09:40 PM (ncxe0)
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Jon Tester: Funded by Hate
In the wake of the Mike Rogers attempt to "out" a conservative senator (using conveniently anonymous sources, of course) and the overwhelming support the practice of "outing" has among the rabid left wing, Dan Riehl comes out on the offensive against Democratic politicians that seem more than willing to profit from hate:
If you think this is a small matter, I'd argue you're wrong. In total, from swimming in a sea of hate that responded to the death of innocent contractors in Iraq with ">"screw 'em">" prominent Democrat candidates have profited to the tune of $3.5 Million dollars. Below are just a few.
Last I looked, Tester running in Montana had half a million dollars in the bank. Half of those dollars came from a Netroots web now claiming an Idaho Senator is a homosexual three weeks before an election, as if it's anyone's business besides his, even if he were.
Is that the type of Democrat Tester is running as in Montana? Lamont is an empty suit, but he had no trouble filling his pockets with $400k from the very same source. And what of Jim Webb? Does he have a position on Gays in the military? Perhaps it's out.
DNC Chair Howard Dean, Senators Barbara Boxer and Harry Reid, among others, traveled to Nevada to solicit support and lavish praise on the same individual whose blog is now featuring the clearest example of homophobic-laced hate in politics I've ever seen. Even today, they are raising money for a so-called expanded field.
The Democrat Party built this network and that blog. They funded it with advertising, many, including John Kerry, have written copy for it and fueled its rage. And they reaped the fruit of that rage in dollars and in hype.
Both parties have their share of those filled with hate, and I don't think that is in dispute. Nor do I think that a politician or his campaign can thoroughly research all of their small contributors to weed out and refuse contributions from those with extremist ideas. It simply isn't feasible.
But candidates such as Jon Tester, who has apparently received
half of his funding from the extreme left wing of the blogosphere that
overwhelming supports outing as a political tool, shouldn't have that excuse.
National Democratic leaders such as Harry Reid and Barbara Boxer should not be lavishing praise on a blogger that seemed to reveal in the death of American security contractors like
Scott Helvenston, a former Navy SEAL that was among four contractors killed, burned, and mutilated trying to help Eurest Support Services deliver food shipments to American troops.
Some on the right responded to their deaths by
creating scholarship funds. Some on the left responded with an enthusiastic
"screw 'em"":
Every death should be on the front page (2.70 / 40)
Let the people see what war is like. This isn’t an Xbox game. There are real repercussions to Bush’s folly.
That said, I feel nothing over the death of merceneries [sic]. They aren’t in Iraq because of orders, or because they are there trying to help the people make Iraq a better place. They are there to wage war for profit. Screw them.
by kos on Thu Apr 1st, 2004 at 12:08:56 PDT
On the other hand, perhaps Jon Tester is aware of the politics of those that support him. They are, after all, among his largest financial supporters. By taking such large contributions from the Kossacks, perhaps "screw them" is a message Jon Tester, Harry Reid, and Barbara Boxer are willing to stand behind.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
08:22 AM
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And I'm sure you'll also denounce Sean Hannity, who just two nights ago, defended Melanie Morgan and her co-author's claim in their new book that Cindy Sheehan had an affair with Lew Rockwell and is "addicted to online porn." Let's hear some more from Bush supporters about how terrible it is that the "left" is using private sexual behavior for political gain and exposing people who enter the public arena to such terrible, invasive scrutiny.
Posted by: Ed at October 18, 2006 10:22 AM (yfKhZ)
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Hey "Ed", I thought democrats weren't about the exposing the privacy of someone else's sex life. Right? See the point of the post now, smart guy?
Posted by: bri at October 18, 2006 10:42 AM (g2k/W)
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It's simply quite erroneous to make Tester responsible for the words of every one of his supporters and donors. And even if one would hold him to that standard, one would have to hold every candidate to that standard, of all political parties.
So, just don't do it. If you don't like Mike Rodgers , fine. But Tester and Rodgers are not the same people.
Posted by: Jaxebad at October 18, 2006 11:23 PM (wweBR)
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Your tactics have sharp teeth when they come back to bite, don't they?
Don't ask, don't tell, unless you're a democrat looking for advantage.
Posted by: Mike H. at October 19, 2006 11:25 PM (rjroG)
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October 17, 2006
Democratic Blogger "Outs" Senator
Pretty disgusting behavior, but par for the course for Mike Rogers, who seems to get off on this sort of thing. Rogers accuses Idaho Republican Larry Craig, a father of three and a grandfather of nine, of being a closeted homosexual. Craig denies the charge.
I suppose it is possible Craig or other Republicans are closeted gays, but... so what?
I personally find women attractive, but should that be the only defining trait I use to weigh and measure every activity and interest I have? Why should my sexual orientation be the driving force in my life, overriding all other considerations?
Most people I know primarily care about issues of national security, taxes, crime, controlling growth, education, personal finances, and their family's spiritual and physical well-being. They aren't so emotionally stunted that they can only see their entire world through a single narrow prism of sexual preference, trying to somehow relate it it to all things. Average folks don't twist their realities this way. They have multi-faceted lives.
Sadly, Rogers has generated a tremendous amount of support from blog-reading Democrats, as presently a
supermajority of them (70%) support "outing" as a political tool.
I'm rather disgusted by this, and I
am not alone.
Conservatives want to fight terrorists, and Democrats want to fight homosexuals.
Sounds like someone has their priorities really screwed up.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
10:29 PM
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Evidently the democ'rat party has a problem with gays that the republicans don't have. Live and let live is the republican party line while the democ'rats have became as bad as the Loon Kim in North Korea at 'forcing' their thoughts on everyone else. Soon they will be sending people on midnight trips of no return.
Posted by: Scrapiron at October 17, 2006 11:03 PM (fEnUg)
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the loony left wants to fiught homos who are not of the left.
why!?
to the left evrything about one's self is derived from one's membership in certain predefined classes.
if one is gay or black or handicapped or old then one MUST be a dem.
if one is a fundamentalist, then one be a republican or a member of alqaeda.
the left wants people to get admitted to schools and to get jobs based on their memebrshipo in certain classes/their ID.
steele and rice and gay GOP'ers violate this identity politics. that's whay the left considers them fair game.
it is a fundamentally anti-libertarian and anti-individualistic creed. it's why they are fascists at heart: the fasci is a bundle of straws; alone each straw breaks; together they are strong. the left wants to break the indivisual and force them to join the fasci. (just like the jihadists. which is why they are not asthreatened by them. they are both anti-individualist/statist creeds.
the left has always uswed whatewvcer tactics they thought would advance their leftist cause.
in the 1960's they campaigned AGAINST marriage - inorder to destroy this bourgwoise institution. now they campaign for GAY marriage for the same reason.
when privacy suits them they are for it, but when ignoring privact rights suits their ultimate goals then they put it aside - in a flash.
when it comes to roe v wade they argue that the US Consitution is writ in stone; it's "ESTABLISHED LAW", they sya. But when they want to overturn something them they argue that "IT'S A LIVING INSTITUTION."
In other words: they are dangerously FOS.
their only principle is to do whatver they can to destroy industrialism, captialism, and traditional bourgeiose culture. arguably the things which have mst improved the lives of most people in the world since 1840.
they would prefer we all lived in a prison - with healthcare, free eduaction, and unlimited sex.
since the USSR failed and china and india became more captialist and indistrialized - and thus exposed socialism as a totally bankrupt creed which couldn't ever deliver the goods - literally and figuratively - the left has declined and become nothing more that a party of post-modern nihilists and hedonistic libertines.
BTW: i have been a registered dem since 1974 - the fact that the left now controls the party makes me angry and nauseus.
Posted by: reliapundit at October 17, 2006 11:13 PM (yuY4q)
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Scrapiron:
Asserting that "Live and let live is the republican party line" while one discusses homosexuality is an idea of such vast mendacity that it has taken me since yesterday just to walk around its circumference and get back here to post.
Never in my experience have Republicans ever been "live and let live" with respect to homosexuality. Where were they on "don't ask, don't tell?" What about gay marriage? I'm just grabbing two recent topics off the shelf; this isn't an exhaustive list.
Do you really believe what you wrote (which would be terrifying) or are you just writing a whole bunch of whatever in order to make yourself feel good (which would be par for the course)?
To forestall the inevitable "you said/no I didn't" flame war, I'm not addressing the issue of outing gay Republican representatives in any way. I'm only addressing your post.
Posted by: Doc Washboard at October 18, 2006 08:10 AM (fjpNv)
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I can't issues responses for an entire political party and tens of millions of supporters, but I personally support openly gay military service, and I've written about it in the past:
I have always supported the idea that any able-bodied American willing to serve their country should have the opportunity. It is unfair to exclude gays from the armed forces or make them hide who they are, while simultaneously telling them they should be proud of the character the military is supposed to have helped them develop. It was and is an intellectually dishonest position.
American soldiers who have the mettle to handle withering enemy fire can handle the sexuality of their fellow soldiers.
As for gay marriage,"marriage" is a religious and legal issue, not merely a legal issue. I'm all for legally binding contracts allowing gay couples full spousal rights within a legal framework, but by trying to force gay "marriage," you are attempting to infringe upon the religious beleifs of many faiths, and the beliefs of the vast majority of Americans, Democrat and Republican.
As usual, you aren't addressing what I wrote, just how you would like to misconstrue what I wrote to fit within your ideological framework.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at October 18, 2006 08:42 AM (g5Nba)
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Rogers is a gay terrorist.
Posted by: Sensible Mom at October 18, 2006 09:01 AM (yuwue)
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Umm, CY, doc washboard is a troll. That's what they do. He doesn't care what the issue is. He's just here to vomit idiocy.
Posted by: bri at October 18, 2006 09:16 AM (g2k/W)
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Unless you think there's something wrong about being gay, being outed really isn't a bad thing.
Posted by: jpe at October 18, 2006 09:20 AM (5ceWd)
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And I'm sure you'll also denounce Sean Hannity, who just two nights ago, defended Melanie Morgan and her co-author's claim in their new book that Cindy Sheehan had an affair with Lew Rockwell and is "addicted to online porn." Let's hear some more from Bush supporters about how terrible it is that the "left" is using private sexual behavior for political gain and exposing people who enter the public arena to such terrible, invasive scrutiny.
Posted by: Ed at October 18, 2006 10:17 AM (yfKhZ)
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Well, now that I've heard of it, sure. I doubt her "addiction” exists, but even if it did, it would hardly be the nuttiest aspect of her increasingly bizarre life.
Not seeing or listening to Hannity, I didn't know there was a book, and certainly have no intention of reading it. As for any relationship between Sheehan and Rockwell, rumors of such aren't exactly news. I first heard about it months ago, but didn’t think it was worth mentioning. I didn’t—and still don’t—view their personal relationship as worth my time as a political blogger.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at October 18, 2006 11:30 AM (g5Nba)
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You'll also be blasting Ken Blackwell for his smearing of Ted Strickland, right?
It's OK, I'll wait...
Posted by: dave™© at October 18, 2006 12:24 PM (pMgvj)
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Again, if it's no big deal that the senator is gay, why the outrage? Is it just political posturing?
Posted by: jpe at October 18, 2006 12:30 PM (5ceWd)
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Dave,
I've got better things to do today than research and respond to every single petty example you can dig up. I don't know what blackwell said, and frankly don't care. He's outside of my normal range of coverage. Direct that question to someone who cares.
As for jpe's question:
Again, if it's no big deal that the senator is gay, why the outrage? Is it just political posturing?
Again, I could care less about his sexuality, just the disgusting method used to alledge it("outing," and an outing by anonymous sources at that). I'm laso sickened by the overwhelming support of such a disgusting tactic by an supermajority of liberal readers at Daily Kos.
I take it you approve of the tactic?
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at October 18, 2006 12:41 PM (g5Nba)
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the disgusting method used to alledge it
Talk radio?
Posted by: jpe at October 18, 2006 01:21 PM (5ceWd)
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CY:
Unless Scrapiron is your sock puppet, I wasn't responding to you in my post above; it was specifically addressed to Scrapiron. It should not, therefore, be surprising that I didn't address what you wrote.
Bri:
Is this a mutual backpatting society, or is it a discussion board?
Posted by: Doc Washboard at October 18, 2006 01:26 PM (/Wery)
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If you mean, is this a liberal blog where 458 comments complement the poster of every article, then no. Have you missed all the snide comments you and your pals make? In that sense, I guess the discussion board has faltered a bit recently.
Posted by: bre at October 18, 2006 01:56 PM (g2k/W)
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So Dave....did Brian Ross and the rest of MSM carry Blackwell's issue?
I agree with CY though - it is not the issue of whether someone is gay or not. It is the fact that if they wish not to make that public, that is their right. People should be allowed their own personal privacy. What Rogers is doing is trying to get his way through blackmail. And that is plain wrong.
Bri - you are correct - maytag is a troll.
Posted by: Specter at October 18, 2006 02:59 PM (ybfXM)
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It is the fact that if they wish not to make that public, that is their right.
If it's morally neutral, and not "disgusting," what difference does it make who does the outing?
Posted by: jpe at October 18, 2006 05:13 PM (5ceWd)
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If it's morally neutral, and not "disgusting," what difference does it make who does the outing?
Why do an "outing" at all? Who stands to gain from the outing?
Why are the "outings" being done in the form of an attack?
They are being done as part of a liberal plan to suppress and disenfranchise a portion of the voting populace. It is assumed that by suppressing this populace, that liberal politicians will be able to pick up gains and thus get back into power.
These outings are not being done out of love or the for best interests of the people being outed. They are being done out of hate and the pursuit of political power.
Democrats want to scream and holler about voter suppression and disenfranchisement - well this is the clearest example of one of the most pernicious forms of voter suppression: the politics of personal destruction.
Posted by: SouthernRoots at October 18, 2006 05:23 PM (jHBWL)
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Bre (or Bri--whichever):
If you're contemptuous of left-wing blogs where every post is preaching to the choir and nobody has anything contrary to offer, why are you also so contemptuous of the fact that I disagree with much of what appears here?
You're not making much sense.
On the one hand, you attack what you see as a "yes man" attitude in the progressive blogosphere; on the other, you dismiss me as a troll, with my sole objective being to "vomit idiocy."
Which is it? Do you want people to be all in agreement here, or do you want some discussion? Choose; you can't have it both ways.
Even better: respond substantively to my initial idea--specifically, that the Republican party is clearly anti-gay, and that pretending otherwise is rank hypocrisy.
Posted by: Doc Washboard at October 18, 2006 06:09 PM (/Wery)
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Why do an "outing" at all? Who stands to gain from the outing?
For one thing, it forces people that had thought of gay people as "those people" to recognize that gay people are like you and me. Gay people are our friends, our family, our associates.
For another, the closet is a destructive place (Mark Foley being the most recent cautionary example).
Posted by: jpe at October 18, 2006 06:36 PM (7OVrF)
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For one thing, it forces people that had thought of gay people as "those people" to recognize that gay people are like you and me. Gay people are our friends, our family, our associates.
So outing someone that hasn't done it themselves is for the good of society at large and to help the outed from the destructive confines of the closet?
That's just so kind of you to be so thoughtful.
Is this program only for one party, or will we be seeing a group of Democrats benefiting from this form of tough love?
You guys are sick.
Posted by: SouthernRoots at October 18, 2006 06:51 PM (jHBWL)
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Bushitler Signs Pro-Torture Bill, Opens Concentration Camps in Pasadena
President Bush signed important pro-torture legislation into law today according to top liberal blogs, opening the floodgates of totalitarianism and completing America’s rapid descent from a land of unrivaled prosperity and freedom into a police state exactly like Iraq under Saddam Hussein's benevolent rule.
"You know, I just love
wiping my backside with the Constitution," said the President and newly crowned Emperor for Life. "It’s a great day to be alive... as long as you aren’t a hippie, or a terrorist." When approached for comment by the White House Press Corps, White House Spokesman Tony Snow gleefully referred reporters down a dark hallway, where muffled gunshots were later heard.
The House Republican leadership which helped push through the landmark legislation
completing the destruction of America’s civil liberties, left the signing ceremony to join Vice President Cheney. Cheney was rumored to be hunting captured ACLU lawyers on a private game preserve near Lubbock, TX.
California governor Arnold Schwarzenegger celebrated by gassing thousands of marsh hippies south of Bakersfield, and Republican strategist KKKarl Rove set off the opening salvo in a barrage of high explosive artillery shells that leveled Columbia University.
Starbucks around the nation are currently under siege, and free thought has now been assigned a cost of $29.95, payable directly to the Republican National Committee.
Howard Dean, currently cowering under Glenn Greenwald's couch in Brazil, could not be reached for comment.
Update: Rev up the "wah" meter. The Daou Report just liked, ensuring us a long line of whiny hippies telling us precisely why using non-invasive interrogation techniques that cause no lasting damage makes the United States
exactly like China under Mao, or Russia under Stalin, or Cuba under Castro… which is kinda weird, since they tend to like those guys.
Oh, well, we'll have them IP tracked and interred by the end of the day. Isn’t that right "madmatt," or as we will refer to you from now on, "70.230.8.210"?
Do not move from your location near Highway 24 North and Bingham Farms in Franklin, MI. Agents will be there soon.
THE BUSHCO JUNTA NEVER SLEEPS!
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
12:19 PM
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When's the movie coming?
Posted by: Retired Navy at October 17, 2006 12:52 PM (8kQAc)
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Help! I'm being attacked by fascist torturers! They're clawing my ankles!
Oops, no wait, that was my kittens.
Still, I feel oppressed, and that's what matters. Down with fascists (except in Iraq, where it would be wrong to remove them)!
Posted by: TallDave at October 17, 2006 01:02 PM (oyQH2)
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Great - now I have to Windex my screen again, I'm laughing so hard. Nice work!
Posted by: 357 at October 17, 2006 01:28 PM (inXR9)
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As a friend of KKKarl and new Food Nazi for the nation, I hereby banish every brand using the words "health", "lite", or "natural"; all organic vegetables and all reduced-fat versions of everything. Possession of synthetic sweeteners will henceforth be punishable by death.
Women, you have nothing to lose but your anorexia!
Posted by: AskMom at October 17, 2006 01:33 PM (HdkAL)
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Imagine a R-wing blog without snark. No, really !
Posted by: PatD at October 17, 2006 02:51 PM (oi3Od)
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I know you think a lot of this is hyperventilizaion, but the concern for loss of habeus and other liberties is a respect for where the slippery slope leads us. You can shrug this stuff off because you adore and love this president. But imagine the most hideous possible Democratic candidate actually elected. Whoever your big bugbear is. And then gin up a new conflict. Another domestic terrorist blast like OkCity. And imagine these sorts of powers in the hands of someone you simply do not trust (and we simply no longer trust this President to do the right thing). Really. Trust me. This isn't a country you want to be living in. As sweet the fantasy is of rounding up "enemies of the state" and treating them roughly, it simply isn't what the good guys do.
We've lost the moral high ground with much of the world. Here, we are losing it with ourselves. You might shrug and say it is ridiculous, but you really do want hard-line differences between the worst of the behaviours of our side and theirs. I never want to legitimize anything approaching torture. It's just plain wrong. As is the loss of habeus corpus.
Posted by: Peter in Hastings at October 17, 2006 03:07 PM (+plyi)
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Congrats on being pro-torture...maybe you aren't getting enough here in the states and should move to kazakhstan...don't let the door hit you on the way out, but then I know how rethugs like bending over and taking things that way.
Posted by: madmatt at October 17, 2006 03:12 PM (J8hqn)
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You might be sorry when President Clinton arrests Dick Cheney as an enemy combatant and sends him to Syria for rendition.
Posted by: Jim Hudson at October 17, 2006 03:27 PM (u8/Pi)
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The President is perfect. Let me know if the voters buy this in a couple of weeks. I'll keep my fingers crossed for ya!
Posted by: Adam at October 17, 2006 03:45 PM (agTB+)
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Whiny hippies always trot out the fact that we picked up a handful of what turned out to be (after all the facts came in) innocent people and made them disappear without a trace while their families wondered what had happened to them for a few years. We didn't charge them with anything and the only reason we picked them up was because we had a suspicion they might be involved in something shady. We had them tortured and kept in coffin-sized cells for a year or so before we realized we made a huge mistake and finally let them go back to their families.
Stupid hippies. Well sure, innocent people will get picked up and tortured sometimes, but by far the majority of people we pick up and torture and imprison without charges will end up to be guilty. Most of them CONFESS (after torture,sure--but that's legal now) to being guilty of SOMETHING.
I hate wimpy liberals that remind us that one day Hillary will have the powers we have given to Bush, as if that will scare brave Republican warriors like us. I don't care if she sends the CIA after me. They can waterboard me all they want. I won't ever confess to being guilty of anything. Only a wimp would confess under tortute to something they didn't do.
Sure the Founding Fathers fought so All men are created equal would become the Law of the Land, but they never had to fight scary Arabs. All they had to fight was white guys from England. And libs always bring up the fact that Reagan never had to ask for the powers Bush has demanded, even though Reagan had to fight the whole USSR, with all their nukes and their massive army. Well I hate to break it to you hippies, but Reagan wasn't up against the rag-tag band of misfits that now terrorize us.
No offense, but George Washington and Ronald Reagan were wimps compared to Bush. Bush isn't afraid to suspend everything this country was founded on to keep us safe from those scary guys with those spooky bandanas on their heads. I don't know about whiny libs, but those guys scare the crap outta me.
Posted by: armagednoutahere at October 17, 2006 03:49 PM (ZGpMS)
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When you sign up as a Democrat, do they remove your humor bone on the spot or give you a few weeks of laugh withdrawal drugs before scheduling the surgery?
Just wondering.
"SnarkMom"
Posted by: askmom at October 17, 2006 03:52 PM (xlnTi)
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When you sign up as a Democrat, do they remove your humor bone on the spot or give you a few weeks of laugh withdrawal drugs before scheduling the surgery?
Im not a Democrat, personally, I'm one of those crazy independent libertarians. But I have a hard time finding any humor in taking away our freedoms and rights.
And I'm not sure if it's comforting or troubling that Republicans have put so much blind trust into our federal government. Since when was a fair trial or checks and balances such a bad thing?
Posted by: AntiFederalist at October 17, 2006 04:13 PM (YClF7)
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How did those "lefties" get in here? I thought the Patriot Act and Bushs' reelection stifled their speech.
I thought that after they expressed their dissent of his policies that they were all rounded up and put away.
Well, with this new law, any lefty that dares to question Bush will now be labelled as an illegal combatant and then we can clear the streets of them and get our theocracy installed.
I hear that Cheney has ordered NBC to create a new hit tv series about the Bush presidency. He has proclaimed that the show will be called "Right Wing". All rounded up lefties will be forced to watch the pilot, first episode, and all reruns, every night. The only commercials allowed will be Televangilists.
Posted by: SouthernRoots at October 17, 2006 04:20 PM (jHBWL)
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armagednoutahere - when you sign up as a Republican, do they remove your brain and replace it with a testosterone pump? Or is it compensation for some hmm... inadequacies down south....
"Only a wimp would confess under torture to something they didn't do." Torture is USELESS as a way to find out the truth. If I shot your foot with a nail gun and told you to confess to molesting a House page, you would confess after the third nail, hands down. Anybody would do it. You would tell yourself that no one would believe it if they heard it, just to make yourself feel better.... Look at history - the Inquisition, Salem witch trials, police interrogations with a rubber hose. This is a bad idea and another example of the incompetence of the Bush Administration - all style (punish the 'evil Arab') and no substance ("well sure, innocent people will get picked up and tortured sometimes, but by far the majority of people we pick and torture and imprison without charges will end up to be guilty")
Posted by: wimpy lib at October 17, 2006 05:06 PM (BrXg6)
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Hah! Bu-shitler! That's funny! Why the vast majority of comedy writers are left-wing I'll never know... you guys put them to shame!
Seriously, though: Capture and torture brown people all you want. Even put up a fence to keep more of them out. Hell, you can even spend every last cent in the treasury on foreign wars and bankrupt my kids and grandkids futures...
But if you even so much look sideways at my 2nd amendment... Well, sir, I can't be blamed for what happens afterwards. Not an all white male jury across the land would convict me! Har!
Posted by: JT at October 17, 2006 06:46 PM (HJ32c)
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This is fun! It's kind of like the Onion...
Shrillary becomes 1st Female President, Issues decree to castrate all Republicans
Shrillary Clenis took her oath and became the 1st female American President today according to top conservative blogs, opening the floodgates of communism and completing America’s rapid descent from a land of unrivaled prosperity and freedom into a nanny state exactly like China under Mao's benevolent rule.
"You know, We can't wait to take all the guns away from all those red-neck idiots' cold dead hands," said the President and newly crowned "First Gentleman" Bill Clenis. "It’s a great day to be alive... as long as you aren’t a gun nut, or a Christian." When approached for comment by the White House Press Corps, reporters were gleefully given copies of the "Little Red Cookbook" and a chart to figure out their fixed-for-life "wage station".
The House Democratic leadership pledged to help push through landmark legislation that would make capitalism a crime and install Clenis as "Chairman for Life." Also on the legislative dockett is an amnesty program that gives free chocolate and any white man's job to all Mexicans who can make the journey as well as a forced "First Gentleman" intern program that all women between the ages of 16 to 28 will be required to register for.
Vice President Howard Dean was sited celebrating with Osama BinLaden, freshly out of hiding and rumored to have been offered a Cabinet Position. Former Iraqi dictator Saddam Hussein has been given Texas as a "Sorry about the invasion" gift. Hussein, in an attempt at humor, described Houston to be "Hot as Hell, and I would know..."
Churches around the nation are currently under siege, and Christians have now been ordered to pay a "God-fearing" tax of $29.95, payable directly to the Democratic National Committee.
Ronald Reagan has reportedly been dug up and revived only to be used for sodomy by the new all-gay army. Nancy has apparently been forced to watch while wearing a burlap sack.
Posted by: The Chemist at October 17, 2006 07:20 PM (HJ32c)
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...but then I know how rethugs like bending over and taking things that way.
Is that a gay joke matt? Using an accusation of homosexuality to disparage an opponent... What's next, calling them nigger lovers?
Seriously, though: Capture and torture brown people all you want. Even put up a fence to keep more of them out.
How about we free 30 million brown people from a homocidal dictator and give them the fundamental human right to self determination? Oh wait, we already did that. And people like you bitch that they were better off under the dictator. You big lovers of human rights you.
Leftists are so cute when they try and talk like grownups.
Posted by: junyo at October 17, 2006 07:33 PM (MOOlu)
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"Congrats on being pro-torture...maybe you aren't getting enough here in the states and should move to kazakhstan...don't let the door hit you on the way out, but then I know how rethugs like bending over and taking things that way."
oh for christsakes, quit being so melodramatic. Did you even read the bill?
Posted by: John at October 17, 2006 09:21 PM (H50Rv)
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Is there going to be a bag limit on hippies? I need this clarified.
Posted by: Purple Avenger at October 17, 2006 09:54 PM (k5pDn)
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How about we free 30 million brown people from a homocidal dictator and give them the fundamental human right to self determination? Oh wait, we already did that.
whoo-hoo! that's right! mission accomplished! 9/11! but, ah, 30 million? now even the preznit himself doesn't brag like that--oh no. in fact, i hear that even that 655,000 figure is kinda high. we've "freed" at most say 40, 50 thou ... but we'll get there!
and what's this about saddam hatin' homos? news to me ... but hey, see, you can always find somethin' to like about a person, sometimes you just gotta dig a little deeper into the ol' spider hole to smoke it out!
Posted by: literalisp at October 17, 2006 10:05 PM (aivkl)
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Ich erliege dem Willen von Bush.
Posted by: Neo at October 17, 2006 11:12 PM (Yozw9)
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It is just like the Onion, except for the humour.
Posted by: Railroad Stone at October 17, 2006 11:13 PM (51E0l)
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The rightards are so stupid that they do not realize that another administration -- a Democratic one -- may want to use these unfettered powers against them. The GOP won't always be in absolute control.
In the meantime, there are a few countries where these morons would feel at ease, e.g., Uzbekistan, Kazakhstan, etc... They could torture political opponents all day long.
I suggest that, when the Democrats return to power, they waterboard the rightards to make them admit that they are the ennemies of the state.
What goes around, comes around.
Posted by: Devil's Advocate at October 18, 2006 06:02 AM (NvhA8)
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In truth Saddam did kill homosexuals and he had prostitutes beheaded as well. He did it to make the masses think he was as religious as the nutcases next door who regularly hang gays and stone women. From time to time he felt the need to do some PR.
But who cares about that? Too busy worrying about some terrorist listening to loud music to worry about gays and women being killed for public consumption.
Posted by: Terrye at October 18, 2006 06:11 AM (4XoCB)
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The rightards want Dubbya to have dictatorial powers so that he can protect them. The rightards are afraid of their own shadow (that's why they are all chickenhawks). The rightards have big mouths, but they really are snivelling little cowards.
Posted by: Devil's Advocate at October 18, 2006 06:14 AM (NvhA8)
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Devil's Advocate wrote: "The rightards are so stupid that they do not realize that another administration -- a Democratic one -- may want to use these unfettered powers against them."
So... While the Republicans are using these mystical "powers" to fight terrorism, Democrats would use them against Republicans. Thanks for letting us know, you patriot.
Posted by: Anonymous for now at October 18, 2006 08:26 AM (kRkl8)
27
I'm not a member of any political party, but I am a student of history and sociology. In my opinion, the "Global War On Terror" has had an interesting side-effect: it's drawn a stark line between those who are committed to the Constitutional ideals of America and those who are ready to part with those ideals as it becomes expedient.
Our government was designed to have "firewalls" that insulate against infection from within. We were created as a nation of laws, not men, because we were never intended to trust the benevolence of any one leader for our due process. The language of this new bill leaves a very grave power in the hands of one man, or a "tribunal", which he selects. Presidential powers are rarely rescinded and I'm sure this broadening of the executive authority will be no exception. Love the new law or hate it, there can be little doubt that it would have made our founding fathers uneasy.
I wonder how the republican party would've reacted if a democratic president had tried such a power-grab while in office, even if we were fighting terrorism at the time (and we always are, somewhere)? Conversely, I wonder if the democrats would react with such moral outrage in that same hypothetical situation.
Posted by: bsalyers at October 18, 2006 09:04 AM (ZzGAs)
28
You guys do realise that all these lefty posters are the same two knuckleheads, right?
Posted by: bri at October 18, 2006 09:11 AM (g2k/W)
29
To anonymous for now
If you believe that Bush and his gang are not going to use their new powers to go after their political opponents, you are not only stupid, but also gullible and naive.
As for being a patriot, go to Iraq, chickenhawk, instead of hanging around in your basement cowering in fear and soiling your pants everytime you hear the Cretin-in-Chief utter the word "terrorist".
Where is Osama Bin Laden, chickenhawk? Has Commander Codpiece found him "dead or alive" yet?
Posted by: Devil's Advocate at October 18, 2006 09:34 AM (0/BHZ)
30
cf...you and your conservative friends are cowards. pure and simple. you have willingly surrendered the very thing that is worth fighting for...your freedom. you just stood up and waved the white flag. you must be so proud to have undone what tens of thousands have fought for.
Posted by: jay at October 18, 2006 12:01 PM (yu9pS)
31
cf...you and your conservative friends are cowards. pure and simple.
Is that why the military as a whole traditionally tends to vote for conservative candidates, whether they be Democratic or Republican conservatives?
you have willingly surrendered the very thing that is worth fighting for...your freedom.
Would you care to provide specific examples of how freedom has been "surrendered?" Links would be nice, preferably those not belonging to liberal bloggers and newspaper columnists, but to recognized legal authorities.
I'm guessing that you can't.
you just stood up and waved the white flag.
Really? Last I checked we had declared war on Isalmic fascism on two large fronts, and dozens, if not hundreds of smaller ones. Democrats are the ones call for us to "redeploy" out of the very regions where we are capturing and killing the most terrorists. Who advocates running up a white flag?
you must be so proud to have undone what tens of thousands have fought for.
Actually, that would be tens of millions over the course of this nation's history. Again, you miss the mark miserably.
* * *
I've waited for a long time to read a non-hysterical, reasoned explanation of why strong interrogation methods that leave no lasting physical damage should be voided in favor of a "do nothing" approach. I'm still waiting for Democrats to come up with a viable alternative method of gathering intelligence from captured terrorists, and they have offered not one in response.
I'm waiting for Democrats to offer up their own solutions. Sadly, all they seem to be able to do is complain.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at October 18, 2006 12:28 PM (g5Nba)
32
Yeah! Why don't liberals have a sense of humor?! I mean, ignoring the fact that the most gifted, insightful comedians working in America today and their large base of faithful fans are liberals... and the stereotypical snarking found on this blog is really just hateful gradeschool-style bullying.
Posted by: Kevin Allison at October 18, 2006 12:49 PM (PcCCd)
33
I'm still waiting for Democrats to come up with a viable alternative method of gathering intelligence from captured terrorists, and they have offered not one in response.
And I'm still waiting for Republicans to tell me why we needed to get rid of the Bill of Rights and fair trials to combat terrorism.
Posted by: AntiFederalist at October 18, 2006 01:27 PM (YClF7)
34
Yup, here we go; more of those crazy, jive-talking liberal hepcats in their zoot suits!
There's nothing more pathetic and clownish than when Republicans try to tar Democrats with insults like "hippie" that were badly dated 40 years ago.
As to Bush, every defense is yet one more stanza of the identical song: "He's not as bad as Hitler." Though it's foolish to even dream of asking Republicans for the factual basis of their propaganda, I wonder if one of them might someday point to a single instance in which any Democratic politician, journalist, educator, or anyone else has ever said that Bush is as bad as Saddam Hussein. All they've ever really said is that he's a cretinous, lying sack of shit.
But, yes, the Republicans are right; Hitler was even worse.
Posted by: legaleagle at October 18, 2006 01:36 PM (fMQ6j)
35
This has been repeated ad nauseum, but it's worth saying again:
Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both.
- Benjamin Franklin
But hey, what did the Founding Fathers know? They only defeated the world's most powerful empire and established a new and vital form of government that lasted for over 200 years.
Posted by: phranqlin at October 18, 2006 01:40 PM (ZYFlZ)
36
Legaleagle
"But, yes, the Republicans are right; Hitler was even worse."
The murderous cretin and his henchmen have two more years to go. They definitely can outdo themselves.
Posted by: Devil's Advocate at October 18, 2006 01:56 PM (r5/L0)
37
first of all democrats have, and are, offering plenty of solutions. in fact joe biden originally offered up the solution that baker is now doing...gathering the adults and determining a real course of action. meanwhile the white house and their blind loyalists (that would be you cf) are only for staying the course.
check the polls...the military is turning it's back on the gop. (and oh by the way...the guys in the white house, and thus whoever supports them, aren't really conservatives.)
let's start with the right to privacy. and freedom of speech. how about the very concept of justice.
you've given up in afghanistan, the taliban is back...and you aren't so much fighting terrorists in iraq as training them. the fact is you are in the middle of a civil war and it is spinning out of control. only cheney talking to limbaugh says it's going remarkably well.
sorry about the wrong number...i was trying to not make you feel so bad about letting that many dead patriots down (i'm talking about real patriots - not like you).
Posted by: jay at October 18, 2006 01:57 PM (yu9pS)
38
"If this were a dictatorship, it'd be a heck of a lot easier, just so long as I'm the dictator." President Bush, December 18, 2000
The Constitution of the United States, Article 1, Section 9:
"The Privilege of the Writ of Habeas Corpus shall not be suspended, unless when in Cases of Rebellion or Invasion the public Safety may require it."
Posted by: jay at October 18, 2006 02:12 PM (yu9pS)
39
Not surprisingly, liberals even lie when they try to quote historical figures.
phranqlin provided this:
Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both.
- Benjamin Franklin
But that isn't what Ben Franklin wrote, is it?
What Franklin said was this:
Those who would give up essential Liberty to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety."
I guess phranqlin's comments can be said to be "reality-based."
For those of you on the left unable to keep score at home, Franklin was discussing essential liberties given up for temporary safety. The Military Commissions Act only applies to enemy aliens determined to be an "unlawful enemy combatant engaged in hostilities or having supported hostilities against the United States."
By definition, that means that your habeas corpus rights as an American citizen are untouched by the bill the president signed into law.
But don't let facts get in the way of a good hissy fit. It's never stopped sock puppet or any of his many personalities, so why should it stop you?
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at October 18, 2006 02:53 PM (g5Nba)
40
Part of the error I think Democrats make is the constant – and thoroughly understandable – emphasis on Republicans’ ostensible incompetence. To a large degree, I think said incompetence is an illusion. Specifically, while the Republicans are, indeed, mind-numbingly inept at everything they do, there’s nothing inadvertent about it. It is simply part of the Republicans' long-term plan to destroy the foundation of American democracy by undermining the ability of the government to serve any useful function besides diverting the public’s resources to cops and defense contractors. Every bloated, rotting corpse that washes up on the banks of the Mississippi; every 85-year-old Parkinson’s patient that has to make a monthly decision between his medication and air-conditioning; every uninsured asthmatic child that has to wait for three hours to be seen by some overworked quack in a filthy emergency room is a testament to the triumph of Republicanism, a confirmation of the principle that government is futile and corrupt, and that the only assurance of security rests in a servile obedience to Wal-Mart and Halliburton.
Posted by: legaleagle at October 18, 2006 02:56 PM (fMQ6j)
41
the military commisions act does not only apply to alien enemies. it applies to whoever the president and the tribunal he appoints say it applies to. if they say it applies to you...then it applies to you.
i'm sad that you are so scared of the boogeymen, so desperate for temporary safety that you are willing to give up any liberties. coward.
Posted by: jay at October 18, 2006 03:14 PM (yu9pS)
42
Jay, trying reading the actual text instead of making a fool out of yourself by beleiving everythign you hear, okay? Since you obviously cna't read much on your own without being led, I'll even tell you exactly what to read.
Go to HR 6054, page 6 of 80, lines 7-9.
Persons subject to military commissions
"Any alien unlawful enemy combatant is subject to trial by military commission under this chapter."
Note that the Military Commissions Act only applies to someone that is an "alien." That means it does not apply to citizens of the United States. Nor does it apply to legal combatants. Just alien unlawful enemy combatants. Foreign terrorists.
I know it is a novel concept for some, but try reading the actual text of the legislation. This may come as a shock to your delicate systems, but some liberal bloggers and pundits and sock puppets aren't above lying to you about what the MCA says to get you shrieking right along with them.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at October 18, 2006 03:38 PM (g5Nba)
43
Actually, the new legislation would broaden the definition of enemy combatant to include anyone who "has purposely and materially supported hostilities" against America. And to add a further note of confusion, elsewhere in the bill an enemy combatant is defined in circular fashion as anyone so designated by a new Defense Department entity, the Combatant Status Review Tribunal [that is: an enemy combatant can be who the president says is an enemy combatant].
There also remains some question whether it might be permissible under the bill to declare an American citizen an "enemy combatant," thereby stripping him of any access to the courts.
Even if the protections you trumpet are in fact rock solid, they don't cover me because I'm an 'alien'. I am, however, a alien of Australia - a country that has fought beside the US in more wars than even the British. Thanks a bunch for treating me as your human equal under law.
Posted by: Geordie at October 18, 2006 04:13 PM (Sv5JZ)
44
If you can't trust Li'l Georgie (what a perfect nickname for someone so over his head in his position. Of course, he'd be in over his head if his position was 1st Grade Bathroom monitor) with these new powers, who can you trust?
Rove?
Posted by: Robert at October 18, 2006 05:15 PM (VTtVl)
45
"I've waited for a long time to read a non-hysterical, reasoned explanation of why strong interrogation methods that leave no lasting physical damage should be voided in favor of a "do nothing" approach. I'm still waiting for Democrats to come up with a viable alternative method of gathering intelligence from captured terrorists, and they have offered not one in response."
There's so much snarkiness here it's hard to know who's being serious, but it is entertaining to see the kool-aid-drinkers prostrate themselves at the Altar of BushCo no matter how he sodomized their alleged sacred cows. Neal Horsely, anyone?
Despite my inclination to invoke the Hippocratic Oath in response to the false dilemma posed by the host, I will assume this is a sincere question and give a sincere response.
Leaving aside minor things like moral authority, public relations, treaties, and law, torture doesn't generate valuable intelligence. Don't take the word of a whiny liberal, investigate for yourself. I encourage you to look at 20th Century US Military doctrine. According to the U.S. Army, the best intelligence comes from a cooperative source, and subscribing to the Geneva Convention saves American lives.
Shrub's myopic, genital-compensating bluster weakens our political strength with allies, provides proof to our enemies that they indeed are right, and endangers the lives of military and civilian Americans.
Now if you want to play "The meaning of 'IS' is" with regard to "...strong interrogation methods that leave no lasting physical damage ..."-isn't-torture game, I suggest that if patriotic Americans can't tell the difference, then the "evil-doers" shouldn't be expected to think any differently than they do.
p.s. To all the "conservatives" here, if you're having trouble reading long sentences, just say so, and I'll provide a "My Pet Goat" version free of charge.
Posted by: JFrankParnell at October 18, 2006 05:50 PM (Evzn0)
46
phranqlin,
Gee. I wonder if the founding fathers you speak of held prisoners of war during the revolutionary war? Do you think they held "trials" for these prisoners, or were they put in front of "tribunals" and firing squads. Or did they just hold on to them until the war was over? You figure it out. Get over it.
The amazing thing in all of this hypocrisy from the left is that if the Dems did not want this law to pass they could have at least have attempted to bottle it up - as in "filibuster" - someething they chose - repeat CHOSE not to do. They did not even put up a fight. Maybe they were too busy chasing after Foleygate to pay attention to the real issues facing the country.
All the legislature (the ENTIRE legislature that is) is put into law what the SC told them they had to to for handling things the way they were being handled anyways. Get over it. Done deal. Dems were complicit in the process so too bad. Stop bellyaching and write your reps and senators. Tell them you disagree - maybe that is something you should have done when the bill was up for debate. You all sat back and let it happen and now you want to crucify the President for signing it into law. Maybe you need to go back to civics class and learn how our government works.
Posted by: Specter at October 18, 2006 10:20 PM (ybfXM)
47
CY,
Here’s a copy of the law:
http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/getdoc.cgi?dbname=109_cong_bills&docid=f:s3930enr.txt.pdf
This site has a breakdown of the potentially offending components of the law (they even give you a hat-tip for your snarkiness):
http://poljunk.gloriousnoise.com/2006/10/the_military_commissions_act_of_2006_wil.php#more
What bothers me most about this law is that it has the potential to set the stage for radical abuses. The law allows for searches and seizures without warrants; it allows hearsay evidence; it allows for the use of evidence obtained by torture; it allows for practically indefinite detention; and it allows for a suspension of habeas corpus (http://www.lectlaw.com/def/h001.htm).
Let’s assume for the sake of this discussion that nobody in the Bush Administration would ever use this law for purposes other than those purported. This will still be law when Bush is gone. The next administration (or the one after, etc.) might view this as a golden opportunity to stifle political dissent here in America. If fundamental due process is effectively eliminated, then a defendant would have next to no chance of surviving being charged with a crime against the state. The charge itself, for all intents and purposes, would equal a guilty verdict. As for the law only applying to aliens, a constructive application of hearsay, as allowed by this law, could render any American citizen suddenly an alien.
There is also the possibility that provisions in this law might effectively set precedents. If we can suspend habeas corpus in terrorism cases, then why not in murder cases, grand theft auto, or shoplifting? I’m sure there are some overly zealous prosecutors and activist judges who are already imagining the possibilities.
On the one hand, you’re right; without the hassles of traditional due process, terrorists could be dealt with much more efficiently. On the other hand, so could the rest of us. It is a trade that might not work in America’s best interests (but, I suppose it could be a dream come true for a ruling party).
You’ve probably heard this before, but think long and hard about your political arch-nemesis having the powers set forth in this law. Would you trust Hillary to execute the law faithfully? How about Kerry? How about some unforeseen George Soros-backed presidency? - I didn’t think so.
By the way, when the hell did Republicans become so loving and trusting in an omniscient and omnipotent government?
Posted by: JML at October 18, 2006 10:22 PM (YUso/)
48
Specter,
Please do blame the Democrats for all our problems. It's really all Clinton's fault anyway, right?
It is true the Congressional Democrats, apparently suffering from Battered Wife Syndrome, tend to just roll over and take the hits with little more than a whimper, but Democratic Party voters are cleaning house.
What about the GOP? "Run, Foley Run, or you can't become a lobbyist," said the GOP.
All but one Republican voted for granting Shrub those pernicious powers. All but one. The GOP has control of all three branches of our government, and what a mess they've made. Quit playing the blame game and take some responsibility.
The name should be Republican'ts.
Can't balance a budget
Can't find one terrorist
Can't win a war
Can't handle a natural disaster
Can't take responsiblity
Can't live without corruption
Can't keep this country safe
Posted by: JFrankParnell at October 18, 2006 11:22 PM (Evzn0)
49
Never thought I'd see the day when the Republican majority started clamping down on our freedoms. First, Bush and his Administration now have demonstrated and instituted the worst of all liberal traits. The first is their "spend and spend" policies, with no end in sight as our President promises aid to Lebanon, with no respect for the conservative philosophy of reducing our debt, not increasing it. I suggest that "spend and spend" is more liberal than tax and spend. And make no mention of the fact that our government, under this Administration, has created the largest deficit ever and the most debt, ever. For holders of assets, such as myself, this "spend and spend" policy (in pursuit of the "Bush doctrine") will mean that our government issued bonds will be worth less and less, and this will drag our economy down and make us vulnerable to holders of these bonds, such as the Chinese. Putting the war expenses on a credit card further hides the growing debt. Taxes also get pushed down to state and local governments as they struggle to pay for needed programs, let alone pork. The other area in which Bush and his Administration is incontestably "liberal" is in his unfettered growth of government; it cannot be contested that our government is now the biggest it has ever been. This is very liberal, I'm afraid "big government" is now a hallmark of a Republican administration; I never thought I'd see a "spend and spend" and "create Big Government" Republican administration. And "create big government" leads to cutting back more and more on our personal rights, while the Big Government starts telling us what to do and how to do it.
A good friend, a staunch capitalist, recently wrote me: "At heart I am a liberterian. I think Bush is Lyndon Johnson Jr. guns & butter.. The only voices I hear in Congress for more financial responsibility are from a minority of the Republicans, nothing from the Democrats. I do agree power corrupts.
Face it, the Republicans now in power aren't anything like what the Libertarians think they are. They're more like Liberals in terms of "spend and spend", and "create more bigger government". Both happened on Bush's watch. If that isn't contrary to what Libertarians stand for, I don't know what is. These Republicans obliterate personal liberties right and left, from the torturing to the mandating of certain types of testing in education. They also are greedy spenders, spending on everything with an abandonment that makes the old political machines look like pikers. They've driven up the deficit so high, gotten us in debt so deep, it boggles the mind. Libertarians stand for honesty, for financially responsible government, for fairness in letting contracts, for freedom to act. For all these reasons, this Republican group has to be stopped, and the only way they can be, for the short run, is to put in a Democratic majority. Once that's in, we can work to get Libertarians back in a powerful place with the real Conservatives who believe much of the same. You deceive yourself if you think the Republicans will do anything more than exactly what they've been doing.
Posted by: OCPatriot at October 19, 2006 12:55 AM (ffQkd)
50
From Olbermann:
"And if you somehow think habeas corpus has not been suspended for American citizens but only for everybody else, ask yourself this: If you are pulled off the street tomorrow, and they call you an alien or an undocumented immigrant or an “unlawful enemy combatant”—exactly how are you going to convince them to give you a court hearing to prove you are not? Do you think this attorney general is going to help you?"
Posted by: Kevin Allison at October 19, 2006 08:01 AM (PcCCd)
51
Kevin Allison
Olbermann is right on the money. The rightards think that somehow they are immune from the viciousness of the new law.
Let's imagine that one of the rightards is denounced to DHS by someone who has a grudge against him/her. As Olbermann points out, if they are taken off the streets and deemed "dangerous" by the powers that be, good luck getting a hearing. If the powers that be decide that said rightard is a liar, and deem him/her an ennemy combattant (or a legal or illegal immigrant, his/her goose is cooked.
The rightard will be spirited away, denied contact with a lawyer, and won't get a hearing since the courts are now barred from hearing those cases.
Posted by: Devil's Advocate at October 19, 2006 08:45 AM (W0Qi5)
52
Okay, I think I’ve heard everything now. Keith Olbermann is a legal expert now? And you have the unmitigated gall to cite him as such? Gee I wonder what Chris Berman and Stuart Scott think. They are, after all, equally well qualified. His show was factually debunked before it even aired.
Again, please read the actual legislation, a relevant section of which I directly quoted from above. Only aliens—non-American citizens—that are unlawful combatants—not legally-protected classes like civilians and soldiers as covered under Geneva, but those excepted by 3rd Geneva 4.1.2—are subject to the MDA 2006.
It only applies the following, which you apparently need repeated back to you again and again so that it will sink in:
Persons subject to military commissions
"Any alien unlawful enemy combatant is subject to trial by military commission under this chapter."
No American citizen can be made subject to this law. Not One. That is what "alien" means. It cannot be applied to enemy combat soldiers, who are lawful enemy combatants (and who, by the way, have never had habeus corpus rights in any war in American history).
A very exhaustive, thorough explanation in available from John C. Bambaneck and posted here.
Please attempt to educate yourselves with the facts, not the uneducated opinion of a second-rate sportscaster.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at October 19, 2006 09:22 AM (g5Nba)
53
Confederate Yankee,
Perhaps you are correct that a conservative reading of the law agrees with your opinion.
Perhaps people express worry because of two things.
1) Shrub is a liar with a demonstrated disdain for observing limits on his behavior, and a record of narcissistic callousness.
2) Everything, and I do mean *everything*, BushCo has predicted has not only been wrong, it has been the very definition of "opposite". A small sampling of wrongness:
"We'll be greeted as liberators."
"These tax cuts will pay for themselves."
"No one could have predicted this would happen." (you choose, 9-11 or Katrina)
Respectfully, the whole lot have proved they are unworthy of being trusted.
Posted by: JFrankParnell at October 19, 2006 12:08 PM (Evzn0)
54
Thank you. That was the funniest thing I've seen all day.
Posted by: Jeff Melton at October 19, 2006 08:43 PM (Y/KP+)
55
OC Patriot/Devils advocate,
I am just curious do you ever do any research or do you just pull your statements right out of your fourth point of contact?
Please tell me what things you could do before Bush was in office that are now illegal?
Oh and by the way, if you ever read the Geneva Convention, combatents dressed as civilians are considered spies and can be shot either on site or after they are captured and questioned. I have not seen an Al Queda uniform while in Iraq, and I am told that neither the Tali's or Al Queda wear them in Afganistan. So basically, we will have the right to shoot all of those we have captured whenever we feel like they are no longer useful to us. So go ahead and push for their right to be placed under the Geneva conventions protections. I am sure that there will be no shortage of soldiers/marines willing to carry out their sentence. But we wil be nice, we will use a bullet to the head or chest, not a dull knife to the throat.
Posted by: Proud Infidel at October 22, 2006 01:00 PM (ZzAby)
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Gun Season
Woodlots and fields across the United States are filling with hunters of game both large and small throughout the coming weeks as rifle and shotgun seasons start in many jurisdictions around the country, but every year about this time we also see an increase—at least anecdotally—of a number of home invasions as the holiday season approaches. ‘Tis the season to be robbing.
As a result, it seems that as we get closer to the holidays, we see an increase in the number of potential firearms purchasers inquiring about home defense weapons for the first time.
Most potential purchasers turn to the "gun expert" in their family or circle of friends for guidance, who often in turn glean their information from other shooters and from gun magazines. Employees of gun shops are often another resource that people know and trust. Sadly, most of the information provided by all of these experts is—in my not so humble opinion—completely wrong.
Pick up any popular gun magazine in the United States today, and you will be quickly overwhelmed at the plethora of tricked-out tactical carbines based on the M16/AR15 platform, intimidating 12-guage combat shotguns, and highly customized pistols costing thousands of dollars. Odds are that when the conversation comes around to which firearms is best suited for home defense, gun magazine authors and your neighborhoods experts will quickly zero in on a 12-guage pump-action shotgun in one flavor or another, with 00-buckshot often mentioned as the ammunition of choice.
You could make a worse choice—a long-barreled single-shot Sharps rifle in .45/70, or on the other extreme, a cheap .25 semi-automatic pistol—but the ubiquitous 12-guage pump touted by neighborhood amateurs and professional gun writers is often the wrong choice for most homeowners.
I first addressed the point when I wrote a post called
Overcoming The "Viagra Theory" of Home Defense on March 15 in response to an
Instapundit reader looking for advice on a home security shotgun that could be used by her and her husband.
She wrote:
I have a great little .22 Browning rifle for plinking, but my husband and I are looking to purchase a shotgun for home security. Not sure what's the best shotgun to get for this, although I'm leaning towards a pump action for the sound effects, which I'm told can be a good deterrent. Would love to hear recommendations from folks. Also wondering if we can get a shotgun that can also be used for trap or skeet, or are guns just too specialized these days? Looking for cost info too, for new and used. Thanks for your advice!
This is very similar to the questions I got from husband-and-wife customers of mine two weeks ago under a far more stressful situation. They were two young homeowners awoken the previous night when someone attempted to force open the back door of their home. When they came to me the following evening they were still visibly shaken as they explained that they’d talked to an "expert" they knew who suggested a 12-gauge pump shotgun equipped with a extended magazine and filled with 00-buckshot cartridges. They were not the first customers sent to me who had been told to make that specific choice by the "experts" they knew, and they won't be the last. They went home with something else.
Why?
As mentioned previously, gun geeks are a knowledgeable lot, but not all of what they "know" applies to all people in all situations. Most of your gun magazine writers are by definition long-term firearms users, usually with military, law enforcement, and/or hunting backgrounds. The vast majority of these writers became familiar with the idea of a 12-gauge shotgun filled with 00-buckshot because that is the most common gauge and loading issued to military and police shotgun users over the past 100 years. As a result, the conventional wisdom, based upon decades of successful use of this combination in military and police shootings, not to mention millions of successful big-game animals harvested, is that this loading works. It is almost unquestioned.
But are soldiers and police officers the same audience as home defense purchasers, and would they use their firearms in the same way, and in the same kinds of situations? The answer to all of these questions is a resounding "no."
12-gauge shotguns used by the military are primarily used for close-quarters offensive operations, like house-to-house fighting, and in guarding prisoners. Shotguns used by police are generally used to augment handguns in standoff situations or for guarding prisoners. In both instances, the person wielding the shotgun, either soldier or policeman, is likely to be a reasonably fit male with formal weapons training that is interjecting himself into a situation where he desires to control and overwhelm an opponent with superior short-range firepower.
Homeowners defending their lives against home invasion do not share the same goals, training, or in many instances, physical characteristics as those assumed by gun writers and other experts.
Unless the Census Bureau is way off, the majority of the American population is neither young nor male, nor necessarily in the best of health. Once you consider that a significant number of potential home defense customers are small-framed women, men, or youth, or may be aging, or may have other issues that prevent them from easily controlling a full-size 12-gauge shotgun, the absurdity of recommending this firearm to all home defense users becomes readily apparent.
In the example of my customers above, both were on the short and stocky side, and a full-size shotgun of any gauge was simply out of the equation. Neither could easily shoulder the weapon. All too often, gun writers and other experts overlook this basic issue.
In addition to the size of their frames, neither customer had much experience with firearms nor physically very strong, and so expecting them to reasonably control a shotgun with a pistol grip was also a dubious prospect. The fact that they lived in a community with a relatively high population density—small homes back-to-back and side to side-to-side small lots—made overpenetration also a significant issue.
What did I end up recommending?
This, specifically, even though it was not something we currently had in stock at the time.
While sniffed at by the experts, a .410-bore shotgun loaded with birdshot possesses more close-range stopping power than any popular handgun caliber, with far less danger of overpenetration. It is also much easier to operate and shoot accurately in high-stress situations than any handgun (which required well-practiced fine motor skills). The fact that this particular variant came with a laser-sight made it even more appropriate for these specific customers.
Is a .410 pump shotgun the "perfect" home defense weapon? Of course not; no weapon exists that can address the needs of all homes and homeowners. But what the HS 410 and other similar shotguns offer is a better compromise for most users, one that can be employed more successfully by a greater number of people. It is also often found at a far more reasonable price that the four-figure tactical firearms that seem to compose the bulk of the gun media's editorializing these days.
The advice I gave to the two customers I worked with was partially heeded. They were determined to leave the gun counter with
something that night, and as I happened to be out of .410s at that time, they did as good as the could have under their self-imposed deadline.
They went with smaller shotgun than the full-size extended-magazine military-issue 12-gauge recommended by their friend. They selected a youth model 20-gauge with a shorter stock that both of them could handle reasonably well. They also went with light target loads instead of buckshot, which will be just as effective for the 12-15 foot ranges that they would expect, while being far safer in their dense suburban neighborhood.
There is no "one size fits all" solution for home defense. I simply wish more "experts" were willing to admit it.
Update: Just to clarify points made above, the average defensive gun use in home invasion shooting is across a room—generally 3-5 yards. At those ranges, common 12-gauge birdshot loadings penetrate
4.5 inches into ballistic gelatin for #8 shot, and
7.5 inches for #5 shot.
At the same range, 00-buckshot will penetrate
22 inches of ballistic gelatin, or translated into English, it will go through your target with enough velocity left to potentially wound or kill someone on the other side of your target, even if you hit your target with 100% of the pellets fired.
.410 loadings will of course have a smaller mass of shot (11/16 of a ounce at 1100+ fps) than the 12 gauge loading (1 ¼ oz of shot at 1200 fps) and a slightly lower velocity, but as Mossberg noted in it’s own research, that produces more than 800 ft/lbs of force at the home defense ranges mentioned, or about twice that of the venerable 230-grain Federal Hydrashok in.45ACP. and at these 3-5 yard ranges, they are quite capable of a one-shot stop.
If additional shots are necessary, the low-recoil, low-report of a .410 will make follow-up shots considerably easier than would a larger-bore shotgun. Fire a 12-gauge in an enclosed 12x12 box in low-light conditions, and tell me how easy it is to simulate a self-imposed
flash-bang. Your odds of survival go down dramatically if you temporarily give up two of your five senses.
Update: I also realize now that I failed to specify which loading I'd recommend for a .410 shotgun for home defense. I tend to prefer the Winchester
X4134 loading, a 3" shell loaded with 11/16 oz. of #4 shot, the Federal
H413 GameShok with #4 shot, or the Remington Express Extra Long Range #4 shot in the
SP413 loading.
These 3" loadings will in most circumstances at a 3-5 yard range produce a hole 1-3" in diameter penetrating up to 6 inches to the dead center of a human target, and the low-impulse recoil will allow rapid follow-up shots.
Again, no gun is suited for all self-defense scenarios, but for those who will choose to barricade themselves in a predetermined safe room and will have the good sense to stay there until arrive and clear the home, this particular firearm and ammunition choice may be ideal for some.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
10:10 AM
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1
Preach it brother. I have been saying this for a long time now. I usually get into mild arguments with my hunting buddies when this topic comes up. I held a little "contest" with them last year. I put my .410 (no laser site) up against a 9mm, .357 and a 12 gauge. The target was 12 feet away. The target was one of those "weeble wobble" punching bags and was placed around a corner to simulate a house environment. We each came around the corner as fast as we could and fired. The .410 hit the target everytime. It was very east to draw on the target due to the gun's size and it pummeled the target. The handgun shooters missed the first two times they tried it and the 12 gauge grazed the target the first time. My buddies have been eating crow ever since.
Posted by: Squidgrunt at October 17, 2006 11:05 AM (5rzho)
2
I've always been partial to a 9mm but can understand why a smaller shotgun would be at an advantage. I never got to play with one of them though.
Posted by: Retired Navy at October 17, 2006 11:53 AM (8kQAc)
3
It may be true that a 12ga is not right for everyone but my old 1100 (or my 870) swing with ease. I'll keep those close to me reguardless of what "experts" say. Now, my BPS 10ga on the other hand does NOT swing well nor could i imagine touching that off in my house. I think that the report would implode my skull.
Posted by: markm at October 17, 2006 11:54 AM (T93rJ)
4
We're thinking about getting my girlfriend a home defense weapon. She recently moved about an hour away for school, and is living in a city, very close to a high crime area. Two of her classmates were mugged at gunpoint a few weeks ago, cars broken into, etc.. I'm thinking of a small revolver. She has ample shooting experience with sporting clays, can handle my Garand as well as me, and would be a damned good shot with my USP .45 if her hand was bigger. I am soliciting suggestions for a good handgun for a woman whose hands are average sized, and has proven ability to handle high power handguns and long arms.
Posted by: Realist Citizen at October 17, 2006 12:17 PM (fqvpi)
5
Keeping a shotgun loaded with birdshot is a great idea, in case you get attacked by a BIRD. A 410 with birdshot works if it is a really little bird.
Take any shotgun loaded with #7.5 or #8 shot out to the range, shoot some phone books, stacked newspaper or what ever at 15 or 20 foot range. See what kind of penetration you get and you'll quickly understand why they invented buckshot.
Posted by: Karl at October 17, 2006 12:20 PM (iux98)
6
I'm sorry, did you just recommend BIRD SHOT?
Bird shot is for birds. Worrying about overpenetration is, imho, nonsense. Because anything that has enough power to hurt somebody is gonna have "over penetration" issues be it 9mm, 5.56mm, .308, 12 or 20 gauge. While worrying about overpenetration you lofted right into underpenetration.
Bird shot makes nice ugly flesh wounds. If you're using a shotgun (I myself prefer carbines, and pistols are, of course, just a way to get to your longgun), buckshot or slugs. Only. Birdshot is for little birds. A dove =/= a 200 pound guy.
http://www.theboxotruth.com/
Old_Painless from AR15.com made up the above website. It deals with penetration issues.
A .410 with birdshot is barely enough to hunt doves with. A dove is not a guy. A hanging moving "bag" is not a human being. Shit #4 buckshot in most tests barely penetrates flesh enough. God, there's reams and reams of accounts by EMT's of the lack of effectiveness of birdshot. It sure as shit doesn't stop anything but small birds.
Argh.
I'll still take a pencil barrel 14.5 inch AR15 with a Phantom 5C2.
Posted by: Spade at October 17, 2006 12:23 PM (MwlDS)
7
realist citizen
S&W M-640 stainless, double action only, .38 Spl. with 2 inch barrel.
Any Taurus, Ruger or colt of this same size will also do.
Posted by: Barry 03 at October 17, 2006 12:25 PM (fEnUg)
8
Penetration is a major concern of mine for home defense. If you miss, you don't want to hit a person several rooms away (likely a relative or innocent neighbor) and unfortunately most handgun ammo will easily punch through drywall. Birdshot won't be knocking down people on the other side of the house.
Posted by: norm at October 17, 2006 12:25 PM (DI5XC)
9
Take any shotgun loaded with #7.5 or #8 shot out to the range, shoot some phone books, stacked newspaper or what ever at 15 or 20 foot range. See what kind of penetration you get and you'll quickly understand why they invented buckshot.
Thank you, Karl. If my home is ever invaded by a stack of phone books, I'll keep that in mind.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at October 17, 2006 12:25 PM (g5Nba)
10
Not being a part of any of the noted demographics above, I have opted for another inexpensive alternative:
I have a 12 ga Savage pump that I cleaned up the barrel and stock on down to the minimum legal specs.
It doesn't win any Turkey shoots but when kept lightly loaded with a lot of small shot, it is easy to move around and shoot. Nobody in the family has a problem moving it around.
Additionally, I don't have to worry about blowing out or penetrating any walls in my downtown row house.
Posted by: Brian at October 17, 2006 12:26 PM (6CDOn)
11
Probably the best average citizen handgun would be a 4 inch barrel, stainless, S&W M-10 in .38 spl.
The best carbine a Marlin Camp Carbine in 9 mm
The reality is If you shoot someone who robs you with birdshot you are not trying to kill. Killing is frowned on.
Buckshot could be construed as Shooting with Malice. A planned desire to kill or cause great harm, A lawsuit action.
Posted by: Barry 03 at October 17, 2006 12:32 PM (fEnUg)
12
Barry03, are you insane?
Posted by: Spade at October 17, 2006 12:35 PM (MwlDS)
13
Thank you, Karl. If my home is ever invaded by a stack of phone books, I'll keep that in mind.
Laugh all you want CY, but a few years ago a gang of out of work, 1994 Business Directories broke into my apartment.
Luckily for me my .357 went clear through A-M and stopped around "Pilots - Pizza" in the other. I still can't look at the Yellow Pages without shuddering...
Posted by: Robb Allen at October 17, 2006 12:36 PM (9tUNz)
14
I mostly agree, but I have serious reservations on both .410 and on birdshot.
I agree that the 12 gauge (or even 20 gauge) should not necessarily be the general recommendation for the infrequent or non shooter, for all reasons cited. It is necessary to see that they leave with a weapon they can use to successfully defend themselves with.
I'm skeptical on .410: 1/2 oz of shot @ 1100 fps or a 100 grain slug @ 1700 fps yields ballistic power factors that are on par with, but not superior to common handgun rounds. (PF = (projectileWeightInGrains * muzzleVelocityInFPS)/1000)
I'm double skeptical on birdshot for home defense. Even in 12 gauge, birdshot is notorious as "not a stopper", causing ghastly, but shallow wounds at all but near contact ranges. Heck, if Dick Cheney's 78 year old hunting buddy can live through a face full of birdshot at 30 yards....
That being said, (which I acknowledge as being subject to debate) my general recommendation for the new/infrequent/non shooter looking for a home defense weapon is a pistol caliber autoloading carbine. Much easier to master than a handgun, not as problematic as a heavybore shotgun, and usually at least as, if not a bit more effective than a handgun in terms of power.
Posted by: geekWithA.45 at October 17, 2006 12:37 PM (xN5UL)
15
20 ga? Good choice for an inexperienced shooter
Birdshot? Not sure - now if you said #1 or #2...
I think a GOOD self defense load is the 2x4 duplex type load - except perhaps in wintertime in cold climates, where you might want a bit more..
Posted by: kg2v at October 17, 2006 12:37 PM (Kpo6x)
16
Re; Confedarate Yankee and phone book attack.
Thats a funny line, but I'm serious about the total lack of penetration of birdshot beyond point blank range. Forget the phone books. Try a leg of lamb or a ham! Compare the penetration of birdshot to a .22 short, or a CB cap for that matter. I think you'll be suprised.
A 410 with a slug or the stacked ball loads might be viable, but unless your muzzle is within several feet of the assailant, I think birdshot is a bad idea.
Posted by: Karl at October 17, 2006 12:41 PM (iux98)
Posted by: Barry 03 at October 17, 2006 12:45 PM (fEnUg)
18
I like a 20 guage with 3 7s followed by 2 slugs. Chasem then killem if they don't get the idead from the bird shot. I also like a 38 revolver with 2 loads of bird shot followed by 3 hollow points. But then I have shot most of my life.
MPW
Posted by: MPW at October 17, 2006 12:47 PM (g6YMo)
19
I second the "Preach it brother" comment. Bad gun advice is something that has been on my mind a lot lately (guilty myself).
Confederate Yankee is right-on that a lot of information by so-called "experts" is wrong. As one of those long-time gun-magazine-reading chairborne-commandos, I've had to re-evalate a lot of my preconceived notions over the years as I've taken beginners out shooting.
While things like muzzle velocity and muzzle energy are very easy to figure out, more important things like recoil and penetration are not.
I have no idea if a .410 will do the job; either loaded with bird-shot or slugs. I suppose when I have some more time and money, I'll get one and paly with it -- although I've been itching to experiment with 20 gauge (0.63") also.
As far as handguns, I've finally come to appreciate the S&W model 10, although I wish it wasn't so damned expensive, and had a better rear sight.
Let's face it; most people aren't gonig to be doing whatever it is Airborne Delta Team 6 does. Once they buy a firearm for home protection, they may shoot once a year. They don't need the latest AR-15 or M-1911 variant. They need something that they can remember how to use. A simple pump shotgun, pistol caliber carbine, or revolver is more than adequate.
That being said, I'd really like to see a lever-action carbine in .45 ACP (not .45 LC), or a pump-carbine that accepts common handgun magazines.
Posted by: Robert R. at October 17, 2006 12:48 PM (Ulj9x)
20
Being a self-labeled gun expert, I think that you are pretty much right on. I, too, think that there is an overabundance of the 'tactical' moniker which seems to be just a ruse to justify driving up prices. What I would have recommended to the above homeowners would more likely have been a pistol caliber carbine (Marlin camp carbine in .45? maybe a Hi-tech in .40S&W for $250?). Generally speaking, the controls are easy to manipulate, the weapon is easily controlled. Ammunition is cheap and plentiful, and IMHO, a minimal amount of training will produce sufficient ability to be effective. If one is worried about overpenetration, loading the first round with frangible ammo should be adequate. The rest of the ammo can be standard JHP or some variant since frangible ammo may not be the most effective stopper, and if the perp doesn't go down with the first shot, you may need that extra 'oomph' in follow-up shots.
Remember; anybody worth shooting once is worth shooting twice, because ammo is cheap but your life is precious.
I do not think that .410 is too little.Remember; often, .410 and .45 Colt can be shot out of the same revolver, and if you think that a .45 colt ain't enough...well, there I must part ways with you. Generally, I think that you should use whatever caliber you are most comfortable with because then you will practice more, and it is the practice that makes you capable, not the weapon itself. This is why a US Marine out to kill you with a pistol is far more dangerous than some gangbanger with a machine gun.
Posted by: doc Russia at October 17, 2006 12:50 PM (Ia5Q4)
21
Home defense ranges are usually measured in feet, not yards.
At a range of 10 - 15 feet (all the way across a typical room) birdshot is moving fast, has not dispersed, and will hit very hard. Much harder than it will at bird hunting ranges of 20 - 30 yards. It is still essentially a loose slug of lead at that range, and will unload all of its energy into the viscera of the target.
The stopping power of a full load of shot is determined by its total weight and speed; a 1 oz load of 00 buckshot and of birdshot hits just as hard off the same powder load, and at home defense ranges, you're either going to hit with everything or miss with everything.
I think birdshot would make a fine home defense round.
Posted by: R C Dean at October 17, 2006 12:51 PM (ifq/U)
22
C. Y. is right. In any real situation (scared silly housewife
Who, me? Seventeen rounds in my 9 mm in the bedroom, and four rounds of No. 6 shot in my 20 Ga. in the living room. (And no kids in the house.)
Posted by: Texas Jack at October 17, 2006 12:51 PM (vFS/o)
23
A good auto handgun would be the Makarov in either 9 MM Mak or up graded to .380 auto
Why?
It's cheap and easy to use.
Posted by: Barry 03 at October 17, 2006 12:51 PM (fEnUg)
24
I agree that a 12-gauge is too much gun for many people, and I agree with others that the 410 and birdshot is too underpowered. You want your opponent down immediately, and you want him to fear you so much when you aim it at him that you won't have to use it at all.
IMHO the best bet is the .38 revolver for a handgun, because it is easy to operate and can be safely stored for long periods without critical springs getting weak. For a shotgun, I'd get a 20-gauge. My wife learned to use one easily -- first time. My mother used one, and my grandmother used one. It's easy to operate, doesn't over-penetrate, and packs more muzzle energy that a .44 magnum.
Posted by: kevino at October 17, 2006 12:53 PM (zRJlk)
25
I'm in the process of recommending a first firearm for a co-worker, whose only previous experience with firearms are the times I've taken him to the local indoor pistol range.
I'm strongly recommending, for a 1st-time home-defense weapon, a Ruger GP100 with a 4" barrel or SP101 with 3" in .357 Magnum. Reasons?
- Double-action is simple to operate (when in emergency mode at close range, aim and pull the trigger).
- Not prone to jamming or failure.
- No slide or pump to rack to make ready for use.
- Storable loaded and easy for emergency access (yet secure from small hands) in bedside drawer-type safe (as opposed to a loaded shotgun).
- Affodable to practice with (.38 Special), but proven stopping power (with +P HP rounds).
- Short barrel makes it easy to "swing" in close-quarters of a home.
- Short barrel also makes it almost impossible for someone to close in and grab (you'll have a better grasp on it than they do).
That's my $0.02 worth.
Posted by: Blackwing1 at October 17, 2006 12:53 PM (irx8I)
26
"...a .410-bore shotgun loaded with birdshot possesses more close-range stopping power than any popular handgun caliber..."
Sorry if I'm showing my ignorance, but how is stopping power defined? Is it kinetic energy transferred, penetration of a standard surface, or some combination of factors?
Posted by: Iron Chef Oklahoma at October 17, 2006 12:54 PM (MFNRz)
27
Wouldn't birdshot be better in most circumstances? I mean, you're not necessarily trying to spread an attacker's guts on the wall, just incapacitate him. Even in body armor, I have to think that would badly stun someone at close range if it has an equivalent punch to a .44.
Too, even for the most diciplined gun owner there is a nontrivial risk of accident, etc., for which would seem worth minimizing the possible destruction or property and person.
Last, if you kill the guy, there's all kinds of paperwork, and I hate paperwork. Sure, with a bigger gun you could shoot the paperwork too (see Robb and Karl above), but that only leads to even more paperwork, which would eventually build to a mass of processed wood pulp capable of absorbing even a tactical nuclear weapon, and just ask Kim Jong Il how hard it is to acquire those and get them to work properly.
Posted by: TallDave at October 17, 2006 12:55 PM (oyQH2)
28
What the heck are you talking about? BIRSHOT from a .410? You are insane.
You really should not be giving advice this bad to people who come to you looking for answers.
What a chump.
Posted by: What? at October 17, 2006 12:57 PM (wqbdh)
29
Remember
KISS Keep it simple.
Only the hits count a hit with a .410 in birdshot will do more harm than a miss with a .12 Ga slug.
My wife uses the S&W M-640 .38 spl
I use a winchester M-94 in 30/30 Mine is slow to load but her's is always loaded and available.
The .38's load?
148 gr. wadcutter.
Posted by: Barry 03 at October 17, 2006 12:58 PM (fEnUg)
30
CY wrote:
>While sniffed at by the experts, a .410-bore
>shotgun loaded with birdshot possesses more
>close-range stopping power than any popular
>handgun caliber ...
Based on what? Specific birdshot demo pages from the Box O' Truth:
http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot3.htm
http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot14.htm
http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot17.htm
Hey Karl, you must admit Tippi Hedren might beg to differ.
http://hitchcock.tv/mov/birds/images/birds.jpg
/AHM
Posted by: Alan H. Martin at October 17, 2006 01:00 PM (UZsP6)
31
Hmmm.
Include me on the anti-birdshot group.
Unless you're really lucky and manage to blind the target then all you've really done is piss someone off.
As for the overpenetration issues, I'd suggest that's very very secondary. If I'm in a situation where I'm using a firearm defensively then that means that surviving that situation is the primary issue. Not overpenetration.
Posted by: ed at October 17, 2006 01:01 PM (3pvQO)
32
Karl makes a very good point. Is there any data to indicate that birdshot will penetrate deep enough? Doesn't matter how much muzzle energy a projectile has, if the projectile is not getting to vital organs, it is not going to stop the bad guy. I believe the FBI determine minimal penetration to be 12 inches. I am pretty sure that birdshot is not going to meet this requirement, even out of a 10 gauge.
See this study:
http://www.firearmstactical.com/briefs10.htm
A .410 or youth 20 gauge would be a good defense weapon for small people. However, they need to load it with buckshot not birdshot, if they want to be able to stop an intruder, not just wound him and piss him off.
Posted by: Jason H at October 17, 2006 01:04 PM (OSSCz)
33
I would suggest a 20 ga auto loader. In stressful situations it is easy to "short shuck" a pump resulting in a jam that would need to be cleared. If you use a Bennelli, I guarantee you it would never fail to load. The idea the the noise from a pump would scare the bad guy away is folklore, in the worst case it would reveal your position. Birdshot is safer, but not adequate.
Posted by: Dan in Michigan at October 17, 2006 01:05 PM (uSI6F)
34
Well sir I would've said the same thing but instead of a .410 (a good firearm) I would've suggested a 16 gauge with bird shot rounds ONLY because the size of the barrel of a 16 guage 'seems' to grab people's attention faster...
Personally I think the comment by, "What?" is the ranting of a delusional fool...
The person DOES NOT offer any contravening advice at all or explain his/her reasoning for dissing your suggestion... A gun control liberal made this, "chump" comment?
Posted by: juandos at October 17, 2006 01:05 PM (Pci7N)
35
While the bulk of the advice of Confederate Yankee is sound, his specific reccomendation was flawed. Specifically, lightweight birdshot doesn't stop human predators. The risk of overpenetration is wildly overstated unless you are living five or more to a room.
Try it now. Point your finger in any random direction, and then figure the odds that the parabolic arc extending from your digit will intersect another person. The chances of your missed shots hitting an innocent bystander are much less than the chance of an assailant deciding to kill you after you've hurt but failed to stop him.
The Box O'Truth is the best, even if not perfect, source on this topic. http://www.theboxotruth.com/ I used to believe in the birdshot theory, until I saw the tests run: http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot3.htm
Posted by: Patrick S Lasswell at October 17, 2006 01:05 PM (W5JWo)
36
Thank you, What?, for your insightful commentary.
Posted by: A fine scotch at October 17, 2006 01:07 PM (G7B82)
37
I would not for one second trust a .410 loaded with birdshot to stop a man. There are far too many cases of men being shot at close range with birdshot and having nothing more than a nasty and shallow flesh wound. Consider a home invasion in winter when the bad guy is wearing several layers of clothing topped with the leather jacket.
And even with a spreader, at indoor ranges, the shot column is tight. You still HAVE to aim a shotgun.
Is that pump shotgun really that easy to use after the first shot? It's not hard to short stroke a pump gun under stress. I've seen quite a few folks shooting skeet or sporting clays short stroke a pump gun.
Are you going to move through your house with a shouldered long gun? What happens when you have to open a door? What happens when you have to turn a corner in a hallway? You either need to let the barrel preceed you in the hallway or point the gun down. Are you going to use a flashlight? How are you going to hold a flash light and a long gun while opening a door?
As far as penetration is concerned, while the medium is different in a human than it is in drywall, the basic physics are the same. A round must deliver sufficient energy upon impact to damage the bad guy's central nervous system or to create enough hydraulic shock to drop him on the spot. At indoor ranges, you might only get one shot. A round with sufficent energy to do this IS going to penetrate several layers of drywall.
I'll take a revolver, DAO or SA/DA handgun and a nice Surefire light any day of the week.
Suggested reading.
http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot3.htm
http://www.tacticalshotgun.ca/ballistics_shotgun.html
Or just google "shotgun terminal ballistics" and see what you find. The author is in the extreme minority if he thinks a .410 loaded with birdshot is an effective defensive round.
Posted by: Wyatt at October 17, 2006 01:07 PM (kLV/m)
38
Love the .410, that's the gun I learned to hunt with and had no problems dropping grouse or even bagging rabbits with birdshot. Did have to go with #6's for pheasant to get some range. I think CY is absolutely right about the 12ga. I own a 12 pump for duck and goose hunting and I am average build 5'11" I could never imagine my 5'4" wife using the 12, I don't think she could reach the forearm grip to reload......
Posted by: Old Tanker at October 17, 2006 01:08 PM (R1BcM)
39
"Killing is frowned on"
I've been told by three cops that IF you have to shoot someone in your house, make sure they are shot dead. If they are not dead, lawyers enter into the frey and if the guy gets off light, you've now got a real pissed off crook that knows where you live. Are the cops full of shit??. Does it vary by state??. I'm in Michigan.
Posted by: markm at October 17, 2006 01:08 PM (T93rJ)
40
For the uninitiated, you probably made the best recommnedation under the circumstances, to a justifiably and very upset emotional couple.
You would do a better business and better for the public to get them trained, thru gun safety, and have them think thru a home invasion and practice, ALOT.
If you can get the drop on Bad Guys ANY weapon works. (Hit men use 2-3 taps to the head from a .22 pistol).
In a High stress situation, a home invasion, a gunfight, where tunnel vision occurs, IQ drops to 60, unlikely these folk will wake from a deep sleep and be able to use a .410 to save themselves...
unless trained and practised. So the neighbors are safer from overpenetration of the buckshot with small birdshot. So are the bad guys, and I've had over 300 pounders in my house in a home invasion. Birdshot is for ... birdies.
http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot22.htm
However, having a .410 guage, a 20, a 16 and a 12 guage for hunting, none of them are "Fast" on the swing or manueverability IN THE HOUSE. FBI statitics, all their gunfingt last less than 3 seconds with 2.6 shots fired.
Personally, I go for #3 or #1 Buckshot in the 20 guage and the 16 Guage. The Ithaca featherlite is workable for my wife & girls.
But WE PRACTICE, And I don't want wounded home intruders, not after last time. Too messy Too much court action.
Here in peoples reublic of Kaliforniastahn you'll lose your guns for sure if you shoot a home invader, but you'll be alive.
I'll take a jury trial for unlawful death over a jury for injury ANY day.
Posted by: Econ-Scott at October 17, 2006 01:09 PM (50zqE)
41
You picture this, your thinking of some good drugs and you don't want to work hard to get it. so you break into a home and come face to face with Mrs. homemaker all of 5' 2" curlers in her hair and bunny slippers with green goo on her face. You become aware she is holding a shiny silver and black firearm of unknown caliber and type.
Before you can say WTF Bro? your are aware of an explosion and fire while your skin is burning and bleeding.
do you,
1. rush to the li'l woman and overpower her.
2. realize she may have another shot and she can and has hit your a$$ once, turn tail and head to the emergency room.
you pick!
Posted by: Barry 03 at October 17, 2006 01:09 PM (fEnUg)
42
Birdshot will not stop an attacker physically. Psychologically--MAYBE. But when he realizes you just shot him and he's still standing... he's gonna be PO'ed and on an adrenaline high. Bad ju-ju.
Posted by: CJ at October 17, 2006 01:10 PM (C4BYd)
43
Well, most people should get a dog - a nice roti or GS from the pound will get you exercise, and its easy to train it to bark like crazy. A 75lb GS will deter someone from coming in your house, which is a much better option than trying to find your gun, your glasses, a flashlight, and then shooting the s.o.b. who broke in.
GS = full time protection, and most miscreants never come in your house - they pick on someone else. Plus, you get in shape.
Gun = part time protection (only when your home), and the miscreants have to enter your home before it works.
Having said that, if I was worried about penetration (as in hitting my kids in the next room), a 410 at 10 feet will do lots of damage, and a rifle is far easy to hit something with than a pistol.
If penetration is not an issue, then I might gun up to a 16 gauge (more power than a 20, not much more recoil) While I have gone through a couple hundred rounds of 12 in a weekend, many small framed individuals are never going to shoot 12 gauge enough to get comfortable with it. A 410 - heck, I can get my 12 year old to shoot that all day.
Posted by: ddcfamily at October 17, 2006 01:13 PM (RL8g9)
44
The .410 pushes alot of lead, and in close quarters,
it would have significant power. As a former skeet
shooter I know it pushes shot just as fast as a 12 ga..
It's not a bad choice for a non-athletic woman. But,
if we're shopping for a firearm for the uninitiated,
I think the main qualities for that firearm would be
simplicity of action and low recoil. For that reason,
I recommend a revolver with a moderate cartridge.
But, whatever weapon is chosen, if there isn't gun
safety training, and time spent at the target range,
there isn't enough time and effort spent on the project.
Posted by: Muggins at October 17, 2006 01:13 PM (miUm9)
45
Common sense for the common person. It really does boil down to what they can handle and what they are comfortable with. All the gagdetry and sophisticated tech stuff means nothing to many people - they feel as comfortable with a pump 20 as I do with my tuned and worked hot-loaded .357
Posted by: goesh at October 17, 2006 01:14 PM (1w6Ud)
46
For the uninitiated, you probably made the best recommnedation under the circumstances, to a justifiably and very upset emotional couple.
You would do a better business and better for the public to get them trained, thru gun safety, and have them think thru a home invasion and practice, ALOT.
If you can get the drop on Bad Guys ANY weapon works. (Hit men use 2-3 taps to the head from a .22 pistol).
In a High stress situation, a home invasion, a gunfight, where tunnel vision occurs, IQ drops to 50, unlikely these folk will wake from a deep sleep and be able to use a .410 to save themselves...
unless trained and practised. So the neighbors are safer from overpenetration of the buckshot with small birdshot. So are the bad guys, and I've had over 300 pounders in my house in a home invasion. Birdshot is for ... birdies.
http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot22.htm
However, having a .410 guage, a 20, a 16 and a 12 guage for hunting, none of them are "Fast" on the swing or manueverability IN THE HOUSE. FBI statitics, all their gunfights last less than 3 seconds with 2.6 shots fired.
Personally, I go for #3 or #1 Buckshot in the 20 Guage and the 16 Guage. The Ithaca featherlite is workable for my wife & girls, if I'm not home.
But WE PRACTICE, And I don't want wounded home intruders, not after last time. Too messy Too much court action.
Here in peoples reublic of Kaliforniastahn you'll lose your guns for sure if you shoot a home invader, but you'll be alive.
I'll take a jury trial for unlawful death over a jury for injury ANY day.
Posted by: Econ-Scott at October 17, 2006 01:15 PM (50zqE)
47
"Killing is frowned upon".
yes, even in justified self defense the LEO will investigate and you had better be well inside the law, sober and straight or you will be in court.
Here In redneck Ga. where I live you cannot use deadly force to stop the theft or destruction of your private property. you cannot shoot if your attacker turns and runs away.
up until recently deadly force could not be used outside your home/place of business.
The idea is you must be within that personal defense space of 15 to 5 yards even muzzle close shooting otherwise you are not considered in danger.
If the perp is unarmed you might even be arrested for shooting to soon.
best bet?
check your local laws for standards which are there to be able to shoot to kill.
Posted by: Barry 03 at October 17, 2006 01:19 PM (fEnUg)
48
There is also now available a .410 revolver which is even handier.
Posted by: John at October 17, 2006 01:20 PM (AdAPj)
49
I ask two questions back when I am asked about home defense guns. 1) How much are you going to practice? 2) Is this gun you are thinking of buying something you want to take to court and defend using on some poor innocent home invader, Rambo?
Besides, just how big a gun do you want to fire in the house without hearing protection?
Posted by: Max at October 17, 2006 01:21 PM (MQWtU)
50
Realist Citizen: I'd recommend a Glock Model 23 for both a concealed carry handgun and for smaller-handed sig-others. It is a .40 cal compact frame automatic. .40 cal is, imho, a well-mannered round with more knockdown potential than 9mm but without being unmanageable (.357, .45) for smaller adults. I've found the 23's design and size to fit my big-ish hand yet still be small enough to be comfortably shot by my girlfriends; it is also faily thin and conceals easily. The Glock's safety strategy, nearly snagless design, reasonable slide action, and reliability are also beneficial for your case.
Posted by: Scott B at October 17, 2006 01:21 PM (usK3q)
51
ddc family,
I gotta a great big ol' Great Dane that rattles windows when he barks, people don't come within a block, and at 120 lbs he'll knock anyone down.
On the .410, after the first shot with all the noise and pain the majority of burglers are haulin' outta there.....
Posted by: Old Tanker at October 17, 2006 01:24 PM (R1BcM)
52
I think your analysis of the 12-gauge is spot-on CY, and those choosing a shotgun are well served by the advice.
HOWEVER, I'm surprised you overlooked something. A longarm in a close-quarters combat situation might just be more of a hinderance than a handgun.
You can get the best of both worlds by carful selection of ammo. Namely, hangun caliber shotshell rounds. A quality highly reliable double action revolver with the first round being a shotshell followed by a hollowpoint would seem to be to be an excellent way to solve the problem.
You get the spread pattern from the first round and if a second round is necessary to stop the intruder, you have the stopping power of a hollowpoint to follow up with. Go a step further and make the third round another shotshell and you can quickly clear quite a large area.
Consider also rounds like the Glaser safety slug instead of a hollowpoint if you're worried about penetrating walls.
I find it sad that so many overlook the usefulness of handgun caliber shotshells when tackling problems related to home defense.
--Jason
Posted by: Jason Coleman at October 17, 2006 01:27 PM (ZZVHQ)
53
My father was a very experienced shooter and hunter. He kept a loaded .38 special S&W hammerless in the nightstand drawer for my mother to use (she too was a good shot, but small), while he preferred his National Match .45 M1911A1. I prefer my old Browning Hi-Power.
Posted by: CatoRenasci at October 17, 2006 01:27 PM (fSqQn)
54
"...the projectile fired from a gun is a simple means of transmitting energy to the target. This energy is wasted, and becomes a potential hazard to innocent bystanders, if the projectile either misses or passes right through the victim....it is this stopping effect which is essential and any subsequent fatality is an undesirable side effect... All shotguns can be considered effective and messy up to forty or fifty yards..."
-David Penn, Keeper of the Department of Exhibits and Firearms at the Imperial War Museum, London, from "Murder Ink, the Mystery Reader's Companion."
Posted by: Jonathan at October 17, 2006 01:29 PM (/vPgr)
55
Scott B
The Glock as well as other Autos of that type have the added safety around children in that the ammo/Magazine can be seperated from the firearm yet combined when needed.
Posted by: Barry 03 at October 17, 2006 01:29 PM (fEnUg)
56
Other reasons for the dog - its more portable, and you dont have to worry about a conceal carry permit - my girls can walk the dog(s), and they get a wide berth (who really wants to mess with a full size GS and Roti?)
If I could get carry permits for the girls (I can't)and get them to shoot often (only one will), and they were willing to shoot someone the first time (I doubt it), and the bad guys knew that they were armed and profecient (they dont), then a gun is close to a dog.
Posted by: ddcfamily at October 17, 2006 01:32 PM (RL8g9)
57
To all birdshot lovers:
When you get done fretting about over penetration, and too much paperwork, and hurting your assailant too much, do yourself a favor. Take your 410 with the #8 shotshells out to the range. Shoot SOMETHING you can measure penetration in. Now shoot the same something with something you consider inadequate for defence, like a .22 rimfire short. Compare the two.
Why spend so much time wondering about something you can check out for yourself in about five minutes?
Posted by: Karl at October 17, 2006 01:34 PM (iux98)
58
You can discuss what type of firearm is the best for home defense all day long and never get anyone to agree. The fact is, no firearm is suitable unless the user is willing and able to undergo sufficient training to use it properly, under extremely stressful conditions. A firearm is only one option in home defense and usually the last one. How about spending money on PIR lights, proper doors and windows, trellidoors, alarm systems, a dog, etc. Home security should be planned with concentric perimeters, and a firearm is the last choice in that perimeter, and the one that requires the most training and presence of mind to use properly and effectively. Having said that....when the time comes to use that weapon, it needs to be simple and massively effective. A shotgun fits those requirements. 00 buck in 20 or 16 guage is the lowest I would go. You're not shooting outside your house in the front yard, you are fighting in the house, usually within 7 to 15 feet. A revolver meets the simplicity test and in the proper caliber, massive effectiveness, but training requirements are higher. Again, no tool works effectively without proper training that effectively simulates the conditions it will be used in.
Posted by: PAL at October 17, 2006 01:44 PM (iMbTI)
59
With the exception of the birdshot advice, solid, good information.
The Box of Truth (amply linked above) has attacked the "is birdshot enough" legend enough to I think draw decisive answers.
I've still been known to load #4 bird in my 12 gauge for Home Defense - but I've been shooting pump shotguns since I was 10. I've got no problem putting 3 shots in about a second.
Mossberg spent a lot of time and money studying the issue, and they concluded that .410 buck was the best, overall, HD round for everybody. Light recoil, low noise (a 12 gauge indoors will rival a flash-bang), and effective at close range. The downside is the price of .410 buck, precluding most from training with it as extensively as they should.
12 gauge birdshot isn't going to effective enough to be sure. .410 certainly won't.
It may _work_, (insofar as wounding someone/turning them away), but if you shoot at someone, they'd better need killin'. If you absolutely must, go for _heavy_ birdshot.. #4 BBs at least.
But most importantly, whatever you get, it's not a magic wand. You MUST practice with it, and shoot it often enough to be familiar with it.
Posted by: Unix-Jedi at October 17, 2006 01:44 PM (WUN+a)
60
4" of flesh penetration isn't enough.
Man, we need DocGKR in here.
Birdshot is for little birds. Hence the clever name.
Posted by: Spade at October 17, 2006 01:47 PM (MwlDS)
61
The Bird Shot is a really bad idea as a stopper, it just doesn't penetrate enough to do anything except piss off the assailant unless it is a contact wound.
It is also not right that with a shotgun "you can't miss"..If you have shot at targets with a shotgun you know that the pattern at typical home defense ranges (10-15) feet is only a couple of inches in diameter.
To penetrate a human body enough to "stop" a determined, or worse drug crazed attacker you need
any rifle, a moderate to large handgun, or a buckshot filled shotgun. Problem, is that will also penetrate several walls. The solution is
probably some kind of frangible bullets, which can
penetrate to a lethal level while also falling apart so that they cannot further penetrate.
The problem with birdshot is that you have a bunch
of pellets and that the energy is divided among all of those pellets. The end result is that the
individual pellets have less energy, and less penetrating power than a pellet gun...
00Buck has less penetrating power through walls than either lethal pistol or rifle rounds.
Posted by: kevin hall at October 17, 2006 01:48 PM (v93CS)
62
Jason Coleman:
RE: Glaser
I like the idea. But the cost is so prohibitive that they're out of the market for a reasonable round.
Of all the people I know who have Glasers in their carry guns I know _one_ who's actually shot more than 6. Most haven't shot any, due to the~$3/round price. And yes, most are loaded in auto pistols. (I personally don't consider a auto tested for less than 50 rounds of whatever ammo I'm considering, and I prefer 100)
Posted by: Unix-Jedi at October 17, 2006 01:49 PM (WUN+a)
63
Oh if only people were made of ballistic gelatin, they'd be so much easier to control.
In the real world, bad guy "ballistic gelatin" may be wearing a denim jacket with a shirt underneath plus a side of ribs or two beneath the surface.
Bad advice.
Posted by: Marc at October 17, 2006 01:54 PM (9ElEd)
64
As a not very experienced gun person, I appreciate this discussion. Particularly the points about penetration. I never thought about ammo going through the wall and hitting an innocent. Thank God I know it now.
Posted by: Jnorr at October 17, 2006 01:57 PM (HrJal)
65
I live in the country, have a beagle hound outside who has a different bark for anything that disturbs him, a 12 GA. automatic with double ought and a 30/30 lever action, both stay loaded. I pity the fool. However I have walked hundreds of miles carrying that shot gun. Sleepy or not it would be ingrained in me to push the safety and fire the shotgun. Most people unfamilar with a firearm need as simple a weapon as possible to find, handle and fire in a crisis. I would recommend a simple double action revolver 38 Cal. or above that fires simply by pulling the trigger if the chamber in front of the pin is empty because of safety reasons a person in fear of his/her life would pull it again
Posted by: old scratch at October 17, 2006 02:01 PM (HaKln)
66
I agree with those sceptical of birdshot, especially ed. He hits the bullseye, so to speak, with his point that the stopping power concern is a much higher priority than the overpenetration concern.
Posted by: Chris at October 17, 2006 02:08 PM (6mTeW)
67
I'll agree that a 12 gauge is usually just too big and heavy and virtually any handgun or rifle bullet will over penetrate, especially if the perp is missed. However, A .410 is just too small. A 20 gauge with an unrifled 20-inch deer slug barrel and a skeet load (i.e., lots of #8 or #9 shot) is much more sensible. I'm partial to pumps myself, mostly because they can be stored with rounds in the magazine, but not in the chamber.
Posted by: BobH at October 17, 2006 02:09 PM (lV1tZ)
68
Coincidentally, I talked a month ago about this topic with the recently-retired county sheriff where I live. He's a former Marine and former federal law-enforcement officer agent as well.
He said that for most homeowners the .410 is ideal, but he did recommend a heavier load than bird shot (bigger than 7, I guess). I personally don't know whether they even make .410 in, say, #4.
Immediate icapacitation of an intruder (and that's what you want, why else would you shoot him?) requires one of two things: disrupting the central vervous system (i.e., head shot or severing spinal cord, that kind of thing) or massive sanguination. The latter is much less desirable, from the self-defender's point of view, because even a bullet through the heart can give the intruder time to shoot back. It's no more than 10 seconds, but there are cases where someone so shot was able to kill the shooter before losing consciousness and dying himself. Yes, rare, but how many do you want to face?
The important thing to remember, using any firearm for self defense, is that any assailant who needs to be shot once needs to be shot five times. Or six.
I have a 12-ga auto myself for home defense, but then I've got 20-plus years formal training and experience with weapons. For most homeowners a .410 with large shot and multiple-shot capability is an ecxcellent choice.
(Lawsuit? You kidding me? Check your state statutes. In my state the law says that no one attacked has any obligation to retreat and that the right to protect yourself inside your own home is absolute.)
Posted by: LE Guy at October 17, 2006 02:25 PM (Y7HLU)
69
Oh god. I just noticed that now "stopping power" and "force" just appeared in the main post.
Stopping power is a myth. One shot stops are, largely, a myth.
People die or are stopped by massive trauma and blood loss. Birdshot doesn't do that because it typically does not penetrate enough to enter the chest cavity. You should be getting 12+ inches of penetration in gel.
The 12 gauge listing at the bottom of the main post may be twice the ft/lbs of a .45 ACP round, but yet that 230 grain Hydrashok is going to penetrate 13 inches about, causing more trauma. Most of that birdshot you're going to be able to pick out with tweezers.
No penetration = no bloodloss or trauma = no real damage
Posted by: Spade at October 17, 2006 02:43 PM (MwlDS)
70
The author must be reading the wrong "expert writers" on this issue. The NRA is a good source for all these types of issues and doesn't recommend shotguns unless you are among the "call 911 and hide and wait catagory of gun owner". A shotgun or rifle go around corners in your home long before you do and can easily be taken from you by someone in hiding. A pistol (with Glaser or Mag-safe safety slugs to help prevent overpenetration) held close to your body is the way to go, preferably in a medium to large caliber, and practiced with on a reasonable basis for proficiency.
Posted by: Karl Baumgarten at October 17, 2006 02:46 PM (wgvDh)
71
First of all, who's breaking into your house? a marine? Special Forces?
You forget the MAIN description of 99% of criminals: stupid, and cowardly. Otherwise, they wouldn't be breaking into your house to steal your knick-knacks.
1-around 80% of break-in are not "hot", i.e., no one is home. Unless you catch them in the act, you're not gonna even come in contact, and your "home defense" weapon is useless.
2-Remember: stupid and cowardly. I will stake money that anyone who is breaking in, once shot at and hit with a .410 shotty with birdshot, the encounter will be loud enough and hurt enough that the stupid and cowardly criminal will be scared enough to crap his pants, and try to get the hell away very quickly. Home defense scenario over.
Like i said above, unless the criminal is very extraordinary, the noise and pain of getting shot with birdshot will NOT piss them off, but scare the holy hell out of them.
Posted by: JK at October 17, 2006 02:49 PM (V2Pcc)
72
If you shot me with birdshot, it would make me very mad before I killed you. Birdshot is not for shooting people. You had me nodding yes until you came up with that one.
Posted by: Pat in SSF at October 17, 2006 02:49 PM (VTL+M)
73
Perhaps this has been answered in the past or in one of the many comments above, but could someone suggest a good self-defense pistol for a petite 5' 2" 100lb female with small hands? Something with some stopping power but easy and light enough to handle.
Posted by: TCL85 at October 17, 2006 02:54 PM (6bq6l)
74
-You made your recommendation based on facts and knowledge we don't have. I accept it.
-I've been through this a number of times. There is no one answer, no "one size fits all" response. Training is and always has been the key, backed by adequate passive defense mechanisms, e.g., locks, lights, etc.
-It is high time to replicate an article I saw many years ago about bullet and pellet penetration through typical interior stud walls & perhaps extend the testing to common exterior walls: what is the effect of insulation on shot penetration? And, no, I won't accept any government studies.
-The .410 bore is a might scrawny & doesn't give much dispersion. I'd probably only trust birdshot if fired at the face. Buck'n'ball? Slugs? But no handloads... litigation, you know. A flashlight on a .410 pump (or anything) can help but for heavens sake don't trick up the gun to make it look like something out of Star Wars.
-There are commercial "half loads" for 12 and 20 gauge that can provide reasonable alternatives.
-On the one hand, not even crooks want to get shot. Searching for adequate medical care can be difficult. On the other hand, we now have increased drug and gang related violent crime. I'm not sure an Ithaca "Roadblock" would stop a decent sized guy on PCP & we won't go into retaliations.
Posted by: NVSmith at October 17, 2006 02:58 PM (PLWeT)
75
TCL85:
A "Lady Smith" would be not a bad choice.
http://www.womenandguns.com/wfn/ladysmith.html
Yhe S&W website has a hideous URL that I won't subect you to, but there are a number of small frame .38/.357s that would work very well.
My fiancee prefers a Colt Commander 1911 with extra-thin grips.
Posted by: Unix-Jedi at October 17, 2006 02:58 PM (WUN+a)
76
The NRA is a good source for all these types of issues and doesn't recommend shotguns unless you are among the "call 911 and hide and wait catagory of gun owner".
Are we then safe in then assuming you are among the “I’ll stick my head out there and see if it gets blown off” camp?
True, you won’t have to worry about answering a district attorney’s questions (they generally don’t question those wearing toe tags, finding though experience that the vast majority of folks in that category are quite unresponsive), but it is patently unintelligent to go looking for trouble when you don’t know how many intruders there may be, or how they may be armed.
The police, the judicial system, and surviving family members prefer for you to be in "call 911 and hide and wait catagory of gun owner." Police officers are trained and equipped to clear a home suspected of being invaded. Your average civilians isn’t, no matter how many time’s he’s seen Rambo.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at October 17, 2006 02:59 PM (g5Nba)
77
PAL makes some good points but misses a few.
Sure, I could spend massive amounts of money on motion detectors, alarms with monitoring, gates, window films, etc. Oh, and don't forget the cost of fixing those items too, when they break. Dogs, by the way, can cost a crap load of dough too. They eat a lot, dig up expensive bits of your house, and a trip to the vets puts you back the cost of one full firearm.
It's not my responsibility to ensure you cannot break into my house. It's your responsibility to stay out.
Posted by: Robb Allen at October 17, 2006 03:01 PM (9tUNz)
78
My vote is for a snub-nose, double-action-only, .38 Special revolver, mostly because it is idiot-proof and concealable.
Posted by: Trashman at October 17, 2006 03:08 PM (SDGuZ)
79
TLC85:
Handgun recommendations are largely worthless, outside of "this make is good, this one isn't". A person should handle, and if possible fire, a pistol to see which one feels comfortable in their hand.
Example of myself: Glocks are fantastic handguns. Very reliable and easy to use. I don't use one because they all seem to feel very wrong in my hand.
Posted by: Spade at October 17, 2006 03:09 PM (MwlDS)
80
I used to travel and live full time in a motorhome for 14 years. I was disturbed about the different laws regarding handguns in the U.S.
In a motorhome in some counties, a handgun in a traveling motorhome was a concealed weapon, but when you stopped it was your home and allowed.
I spoke to a NM State Police officer and he recommended that I take a shotgun, cut the barrel down so it is legal in the U.S. and Canada, 24 inches at the time and carry OO shot in it.
His idea, when you pointed it at someone, and rifled a shot into the barrel it would look 8" wide and sound like a cannon going off and anything going on would stop.
I carried this shotgun for 14 years. Never had to use it.
Posted by: Bob at October 17, 2006 03:10 PM (6iOQb)
81
I see a lot of disparaging comments made by people who seem to be frequent shooters. A .410 doesn't suit them.
Guys: YOU are not the target audience. The recommendation was for people who don't shoot much, if at all. They are expected not to shoot much in the future.
If they had asked for recommendations on a family car, and you were race car drivers, would you have suggested a Formula 1 race car for grocery shopping and taking the kids to school? Maybe they should step down to a simple V12 Ferrari?
Simplicity of operation and the ability to keep it loaded- if they believe their situation makes that important- are far more important than stopping power. Ask your favorite neighborhood perp: Do you want to get gut shot with a .22? How about a .410?
Remember: The vast majority of confrontations stopped by an armed victim do not involve ANY shots fired. Stopping power is irrelevant in almost all cases because no shot was fired.
Just because WE might be happier- and better off- with our favorite Formula 1 racer does not make such appropriate for non-enthusiasts.
As for over-penetration: After you puncture a perp with a 12 gauge slug which continued thru the wall and paralysed your neighbor, don't try telling the jury that over-penetration doesn't concern you. It is a serious concern for any responsible urban or suburban self-defense shooter. A slug will go thru a perp and a couple windows real easily. It will also go thru a perp and sheetrock walls and your neighbor's kid.
Are you so cool that you don't care? Tell it to the jury.
Posted by: Wudndux at October 17, 2006 03:20 PM (PXJsR)
82
While I wouldn't recommend 7 1/2's or 8’s, bird shot is more than adequate if you use something like fours. I had the experience of seeing what a 16 gauge loaded with size 6 shot would do at twelve feet. It made an inch and a quarter hole through a sheet of 3/4 plywood and penetrated the towels behind it for several inches, ruining them. Anyone who thinks that isn't sufficient needs his head examined. While the 410 would make a somewhat smaller hole, like probably 3/4 of an inch or so, how big of hole is necessary? Also remember that demonstration of the idiot and the bullet proof vest who talked a fellow into shooting him with a 44 mag in front of television cameras. The bullet didn't penetrate, but the idiot in the vest was still dead. My books say a 45 ACP has about 430 foot pounds of muzzle energy, and the 11/16 oz. load in a 410 has around 800 foot pounds. Granted that the energy drops off much quicker with birdshot, but home distances are not very long. The practical effect at close range is that the shot charge acts more like a slug than individual pellets, and three hundred grains of them traveling eleven hundred feet a second should be more than adequate. I would probably select size 4 shot. For what it’s worth, I would also select size 4 in a twelve gauge. The longest distance I could shoot in my house is nineteen feet, with most distances being less.
Posted by: Fritz at October 17, 2006 03:21 PM (3S8Lc)
83
Confederate Yankee,
Of course not, but I don't have a phone in my bedroom and don't own a cell phone. At night, the most likely time my house might get broken into while I'm home, I'm usually in my bedroom. I have fired numerous types of weapons over the years and keep proficient with the ones I own, which doesn't currently include a shotgun. I am not a police officer and don't know how to go about clearing a home of invaders, so I'll wait the criminals out. I won't worry about a district attorney's questions, since him asking them means I survived. Your implication that this is Rambo-like is misplaced.
Posted by: Karl Baumgarten at October 17, 2006 03:23 PM (wgvDh)
84
Are we then safe in then assuming you are among the “I’ll stick my head out there and see if it gets blown off” camp?
Hunkering down in your bedroom and calling the cops beats the hell out of clearing your house regardless of how one is armed.
Unless, of course, if you have children. In which case, at the very least, you need to be able to gather the family into a secure spot and then hunker down and wait for the police.
Again, for me, a handgun is the best choice.
Dogs are still the best...
Posted by: Wyatt at October 17, 2006 03:31 PM (kLV/m)
85
If folks are concerned about killing someone, then don't buy a gun.
One of the rules of guns is that you don't point them at anyone unless you are willing to kill, period.
Posted by: TexasDude at October 17, 2006 03:33 PM (QeGmC)
86
Great debate here! My recommendation re: the .410 is to use that if that's all you have, but ixnay on the birdshot...I'd load it with #4 to 00.
Manufacturers make .410 shotguns for children and people who are no longer challenged breaking clay pigeons with larger gauges. Has anybody ever seen a .410 marketed for defense from anything other than snakes? Probably a good reason for that.
Winchester made a 1300 "Lady Defender" pump in 20 gauge that would be ideal for this scenario...I've greased through many riotgun stages with mine feeling almost no recoil (except for when using slugs); I recommend a similar shotgun over the .410. It doesn't even have to be an 8-shot like the LD; four or five rounds of 20 gauge buckshot in an unplugged pump should be plenty to protect you and yours.
Posted by: Cowboy Blob at October 17, 2006 03:36 PM (xgaID)
87
Hi. New here; probably just a once-through. Since so many people are ragging on birdshot as being too wimpy, I read in a comment thread elsewhere that one gun owner keeps his first round non-lethal in case he makes a mistake, and it made sense to me. What if that "bump in the night" was actually your own teenager sneaking into the house after curfew? Do you really want to kill him or her by mistake with the first shot? Or visa versa, if you come home later than expected, do you want your nervous teenager putting a lethal round into you? In a dark house, it can be hard to tell who that shadowy figure really is.
I'm all for eliminating actual bad guys, but I also realize that in a dark room in my own house, I might screw up and hit a non-invader.
That's all. Nice report, Confederate Yankee.
Posted by: FL Mom at October 17, 2006 03:43 PM (2jkXK)
88
So get a .410 in pump, self-loading or lever action? What length of barrell? Please advise.
Posted by: DFens at October 17, 2006 03:47 PM (Gi7oA)
89
Wudndux,
We're not saying we don't care about overpenetration - just that saving your own life is by far the first priority. Obviously there's a trade-off. I wouldn't choose a .308 for defending myself in my apartment (though I'd use it if it was all I had). However choosing bird shot over buck shot is swinging too far the other direction. If you have to fire a gun to protect your life, it's risky to choose a load that might not do that job.
Posted by: Chris at October 17, 2006 04:03 PM (6mTeW)
90
Many commenters favor some type of birdshot. To each his own, but, is there not a reason such loads are called "birdshot"?
Posted by: bncthor at October 17, 2006 04:10 PM (vFS/o)
91
Is there a difference between, for example, #4 and #12 birdshot?
Posted by: G at October 17, 2006 04:13 PM (Gi7oA)
92
Realist Citizen said: I am soliciting suggestions for a good handgun for a woman whose hands are average sized, and has proven ability to handle high power handguns and long arms.
I hope you're not gone yet. I'd check out Cornered Cat. Google Search for her.
I believe she recommends quite a few good handguns for the ladies on her site. Also, if I remember correctly, she likes the XD-9 subcompact, which I happen to carry daily and absolutely love. My wife can handle it quite well as well.
Good luck!
Posted by: Del Simmons at October 17, 2006 04:29 PM (DRifx)
93
I recently purchased a home defense gun. Here are some of the considerations I used.
I couldn't agree more regarding the 12ga. unless the only person that will shoot the gun in a relatively large male. 12 gauge is a very powerful load. They kick like hell. I'm 5'6" 250lbs. and I dislike shooting them. The only reason I would ever own one would be to hunt ducks.
Pump shotguns: as a teenager I avidly hunted squirrel mostly with a full choked 20ga. pump. In the excitement of shooting at game I would probably short-stroke the gun one out of three to one out of four times, jamming it. I've also hunted with semi-auto shotguns and they jam all the time too. I don't know about you, but for me, any type of weapon I would choose for defensive purposes CAN'T JAM; it must go bang and then be ready to fire another shot after the trigger is pulled every time.
.410s: What a .410 has going for it is that anyone can shoot it. I considered it very seriously mainly because my wife is 4'9". The birdshot angle has been covered well in the comments; the Box O' Truth does not lie! A round that is capable of barely penetrating a single gallon jug of water may not stop a drunken or coked-up or desperate intruder from harming you or your family. If you're in an apartment or some other living situation where over-penetration is a primary concern, go with the biggest bird shot you can find. Otherwise, Winchester makes .410 shells with 3-5 pellets of 00 and 000 buckshot specifically for home defense.
Handguns: they're wonderfully convenient and more difficult to take away from you than a long gun, but as the father of three small children in the house, over-penetration is NOT a trivial concern. Moreover, handguns typically require CONSTANT training to use effectively. To give you an idea, the vast majority of POLICE shootings are handgun shootings which occur at distances of seven yards are less. Even at these close distances, these PROFESSIONALLY TRAINED shooters MISS well over half the time. If I would have gone with a handgun it would have been a double action revolver of significant caliber (.38 or above) loaded with Glaser safety slugs.
Anyway, I finally went with an inexpensive Chinese made 20 gauge double barrel shotgun with exposed hammers. In 20 gauge it's felt recoil is only 55% of that of a 12 gauge.Mechanically and practically it's the epitome of simplicity: 2 barrels, two hammers, two shells and two triggers. With the exposed hammers the gun can be easily cocked, and more importantly it's status can be detected at a glance. The tradeoff is that it's possible for the hammers to get snagged on something such as the sleeves of a bulky bathrobe. Most importantly it can be safely stored loaded with the hammers down. Furthermore it's a "coach gun" model, with barrels 20" long, making it more practical to use inside of a house. If you want to see how important this is, walk around your house from room to room with four foot length of 2x4 or something similar shouldered as if it were a long gun. It's harder than you think.
Remington's SP series of coach guns are well made in Russia and are reasonably priced, but only the 12ga. is available with exposed hammers. Stoeger coach guns are lovely Brazillian made pieces available in .410, 20 and 12 gauge, again without exposed hammers.
I purchased my Chinese made gun here:
www.classicarms.us
It was the only 20ga. coach gun I could find with exposed hammers. They are also available in 12 gauge and .410.
yours/
peter.
Posted by: Peter Jackson at October 17, 2006 04:36 PM (LQEWm)
94
Oops, I forgot, I keep my 20ga. double barrel loaded with #4 Buck.
yours/
peter.
Posted by: Peter Jackson at October 17, 2006 04:46 PM (LQEWm)
95
The last comment by LE Guy is very much on track. Those folks concerned about stopping power do not seem to have put full thought into CK's two most important points:
1) Getting there the fastest with the mostest. The first hit immediately degrades your oppenent's capacity, and CK put a great deal of emphasis, in his contest with his friends, on that the .410 was far more effective in the situation described. With a mere second or two, it is far more important to hit the enemy than anything else. Yes, the stopping power of one shot from the other weapons mentioned are far more powerful, but what about the stopping power of a hit from a lighter shot versus the stopping power of a miss from a heavier one? Even more to the point, what is the stopping power of 2 or 3 .410 hits as opposed to the stopping power zero hits from a more powerful weapon?
2) This is a special situation. Who is the enemy, what is his intention, and what constitutes victory? Last to first: 1) Victory is when the intruder is neutralized without any damage to the defenders. 2) The intent of the intruder is either to a)rob, b) rape or other violence to the inhabitants, or c) both. 3) An intruder is by definition in this situation either a) working for material gain or b) vicious, possibly unbalanced. Both are criminals,with all the stupidity and nastiness that entails.
Will they to be deterred by a succession of hits from a .410? Almost certainly. Remember, once the first hits, you keep shooting. How likely is a person, even in this case, to stop and muse, "I say, while my flesh is being torn to pieces by a rapid succession of shotgun blasts, I can't help but notice that none of my vital organs has yet been penetrated. May as well be shooting spitballs and marshmallows. Even at that, I would excuse myself, as spending the rest of my life as a walking lump of scar tissue is a less than attractive prospect. However, that would expose me to the scornful mockery of my telephone book, an unbearable humiliation. I shall advance crazedly!"
The other commenters have been very eductional and kind to have taken the time to participate, but I think in their expertise and practice causes them to not fully value the competnece of most people in this situation.
Posted by: Joe Y at October 17, 2006 04:48 PM (zPbhS)
96
I quite agree, within the limits of the issue posed -- the person does not have much experience, and hence is going to beaten up by a big 12.
Most gunfights are at VERY close range. I think 5-7 ft. is the outer limit. At 6 ft., a shotgun's pellets are still in mass about 1-2" in diameter. Even birdst is going to do some serious damage. Glazer slugs are, as I recall, birdsht compressed inside a jacket. Lungs aren't 4" under the skin. A 2" hole into the lung cavity is not going to be good for health or fighting ability. Or fighting spirit -- odds are even a determined attacker (which most burglars are not) is going to go down and scream for help. And if the user has been able to practice with it, instead of getting intimidated by recoil, they're more likely to land a hit.
If more penetration is desired, they do make a .410 load with three 00 buck. Once saw a stopping power study (granted, none of those are perfect) indicating that 00 buck was about equal to a 9mm. It trades penetration for transmission of energy, but has plenty penetration to reach the boiler room. The rough equivalent of three 9mms hitting in a 2" circle will probably be rather convincing.
Posted by: Dave Hardy at October 17, 2006 04:58 PM (b7SR8)
97
Everbody has their favorite...here's mine. A 250,000 volt handheld stungun. If the badguy has a gun, I'm already dead. If I get close enough to touch him...zap...he's done. Hit me, choke me, go ahead...he'll be close enough to zap. Never goes thru a wall, but it damn well WILL go thru anything he's wearing. It cold...he has a jacket on...a .410 does nothing. But 250,000 volts will put him down until the police come. And if he starts to get up again...zap...he down again. Anybody can use it, and there's no flash or noise. Women, children or the weak can handle it with ease. And if it's taken during a breakin, it can't be used to rob a bank. But that's just my opinion. thanks...tnv
Posted by: thom at October 17, 2006 05:33 PM (85hVY)
98
Let's see now, from Remington specs,
.45 ACP 230gr jacketed @ 830fps = 351 ft/lbs
.367 Mag 158gr softnose @ 1235fps = 535 ft/lbs
.410 1/2 oz #6 Birdshot @ 1200fps = 699 ft/lbs
I remember when Rich Davis came out with "Second Chance" body armor, and used to shoot himself in the chest with a .357, then jump up off the ground where the pistol had knocked him, and shoot some bowling pins off a table downrange. Even with some shot spread at 8-10 feet the goblin is going to receive a significant blow and since the lead won't blow through, all the energy will be transfered and not expended upon subsequent walls or personages.
It will ruin his whole day.
Posted by: Richard at October 17, 2006 05:41 PM (8u3Sz)
99
Hey guys, I'm new here. Some interesting ideas
and comments. I was lucky and got grow up with
assorted petty criminals. To a man, almost all
or any would crap their pants if you just showed
them the barrel of a 22. Ever fire a 357 inside
a house? Don't do it. All of a sudden you are
blind and deaf. Your ears will ring for quite
some time. A 20 or 410 with a short barrel sounds
like a good idea. At in the house distance the plastic wad would still be holding the shot, no?
I know for a fact my wife can't handle a 12 even
with birdshot. A 410 maybee, don't know, as I don't have one. She can handle a 1911 pretty good
even with her small hands. Would I want to be near her if she had the 45, hell no. I'd hit the
deck. The intruder would get blown to pieces.
I think a SW19 in 38 would be a good size for a
woman as there smaller. The 38 is not to hard to
control and won't blow your eardrums out if you
have to use it.
Above all else. train, train, train.
Learn to use what you have. Don't wait till the
TSHTF. A Thompson would be my idea of a house gun.
K
Posted by: KeithP at October 17, 2006 06:04 PM (F+u+r)
100
I gotta weigh in on this one....
As a current military member and a former repo agent etc. I want a short barrled (18-24in) .410 for home and car defense. Load 'er up with BB shot (steel) and let the bad guys come. In a car? It will shoot through the door and cause a "carjacker" a very bad day. I HAVE seen the results! It wasn't pretty.
In a house? Imagine getting hit by a BB gun at about 1000 FPS in a room. Just use your average sized bedroom--11x12ft. Pump up your pellet gun and let rip at a "phone book" in that range. Will it penetrate 9 inches? NOPE! Who cares? That 3-4 inches it does when compared with a chest cavity is plenty. Bad guy falls down--DEAD! If not dead? Looking for the nearest way to get the heck out a there. Especially if there are more rounds coming!
Posted by: Jamie at October 17, 2006 06:20 PM (XpaXd)
101
I would agree with Ol' Painless over at the Box O' Truth. Birdshot is for birds. If a 12 gauge is too much gun, by all means, use a 20 gauge or a .410, but don't go below #4 shot. Check out B O'T, it's a hoot. Here's a link to the specific article:
http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot3.htm
Posted by: Darrell at October 17, 2006 06:32 PM (bIsKp)
102
I have to add I have almost all of the mentioned weapons in this post.
What is my "bedside" weapon?
A pistol gripped, 18 inch, double barreled .410 with BB shot....
Posted by: Jamie at October 17, 2006 06:36 PM (XpaXd)
103
I have dug out BB's, 22 pellets out of my own
self before. They hurt like hell.
Something else to consider about "bad guys"
Most times their all posture. Not always, but
most times. Given the chance, when having to face
a motivated and armed opponent, they head for
safety. Like in run away and cry to mama. If
your line of work is not to safe, keep weapons
handy. A 6" bowie on the seat next to you. A 1911 in reach. Attitude helps to, as a cool head.
Carry under a bath towel on the seat. Won't draw
looks from anyone. Just looks like a stupid bath
towel. Put a Thomas guide on top and yer good to
go.
A couple on here talked about K9's.
A very good first line of defense. Also a very
good alert system. G.sheps are really good at this. I have two of them. They also make great
family pets. OK, you have to feed/pay them or
they might go on strike. They work 24/7 cheap.
If you take care of them, the vet. bills are
only routine shots and checkups. And they love
you all the time. Even when your in a shitty
mood. Pretty hard to beat that.
Posted by: KeithP at October 17, 2006 06:59 PM (F+u+r)
104
A .410 ga. can be suitable as self defense, BUT
NOT WITH BIRDSHOT !
My very first shooting call many years ag0 ( mid 70's) involved a man shot in the abdomen at about three feet while breaking into an apartment. Only
a screen door was between him and the muzzle.
The gun was loaded with 7 1/2 birdshot. It penetrated the screen, his T shirt, and about
three inches into the abdomen. It did succeed in stopping him- but had it hit a shoulder or other less vital area I am not sure it would have.
He was still setting up and talking when the ambulance took him away.
From later experiments I found that a heavy leather or wool coat would reduce the penetration
by at least half. This is not good, especially if the subject is a bit high already and less then normally sensitive to pain.
A youth model shotgun in 20 gauge is a more reliable stopper, with more choices of ammunition,
and loaded with #4 buck is a good choice for stopping without excessive penetration.
Nothing is ever "perfect" for all situations/ users, etc.
(Someone above asked if there was a difference in
#12 birdshot vs. some other size. Yes! Birdshot
normally runs from #2 to #9 with the larger number being a SMALLER shot pellet, but more of them. #11 or #12 is "dust" shot and useless for much beyond trick indoor shooting . Hope this helps.)(Buck shot runs from #4 -smallest- to
triple ought or 000- largest- and is all larger than any of the "birdshot" loads.)
Posted by: Gray One at October 17, 2006 06:59 PM (vFS/o)
105
I do a little police work, have for many years. When my daughter went off to college she took her 20 gauge (that I gave her for her 16th birthday) and put it under her bed. She knows how and when to use it. For me? G21C with a laser max. A very nice weapon for ME. The choice is, as you say, an individual evaluation/decision.
Nice pots.
Posted by: jeff leflore at October 17, 2006 07:47 PM (WBnTp)
106
Wudndux;
I don't see disparaging comments about the 410.
I see disparaging comments about birdshot. If someone is trying to kill you, under penetration is an orders of magnatude bigger problem than over penetration. Choosing to arm yourself with a gun/load incapable of reaching the vital organs of an assailant at the longest range you might need to fire is a bad idea. That means birdshot is a bad idea. Unless you've been contemplating using a .50 cal. Barrett, or you live in a tent city, pick the gun you like with reasonable power and don't worry about over penetration.
Folks who are obsessing about all the bad things that might happen if they actually confront a home invader should probably forget about a gun and just have a plan to jump out the window and run away.
Posted by: Karl at October 17, 2006 08:20 PM (0WmLX)
107
Quite a stir! The truth is, and MOST important, it is not what you shoot as HOW you shoot. Elephants have been killed with a .22 LR as well as the .700 nitro express. I know which one I'd rather use but one critical hit with a .410 w/#6's is deadly at short ranges.
Also, at the range CY listed (5 to 7 yards), there is little time for the shot to pattern more than a solid mass. Don't forget, as Gen. Hatcher pointed out years ago, there is considerable high pressure gas from the propellant that will penetrate the wound and do as much if not more tissue damage than the #6 shot.
Read Hatcher's writings and practice you aim.
Posted by: Roger .45 at October 17, 2006 08:33 PM (TANEQ)
108
Ah, the usual debate.
The real answer is "Use what you feel comfortable with."
I know a lot of folks don't much care for birdshot, but the BEST home defense weapon is the ONE YOU CAN HIT THINGS WITH.
Touching off a 5oo Magnum won't do much good if you miss every time - or are too scared of the blast to even pull the trigger.
I agree that one should make sure that whatever ammunition one is using is sufficiently lethal, but beyond that, user comfort is more important than ballistic performance.
Posted by: Posse Incitatus at October 17, 2006 08:48 PM (IKKFf)
109
Realist Citizen -
Have a look at the Taurus PT-145 Millenium Pro - it fits my smaller man hands very well, great size for CC and 10+1 of .45 ACP.
Shoots like a dream and has far less "kick" than you'd think from such a small-framed polymer (mine has a SS slide) handgun.
http://www.gunblast.com/Taurus-PT145.htm
Good luck!
Posted by: Wrath at October 17, 2006 08:48 PM (dwMK+)
110
My choice would be an 8mm auto. A shotgun takes to much time to grab, bring to hip (assuming that there is no time to bring it to shoulder) and fire. There is also the question of securing the shotgun and its ammo from the kiddies. An 8mm auto is more easily secured and is quickly loaded by a pre-stocked clip. Like the .410 gauge shotgun, an 8mm has advantages of operational control over its bigger bore brothers. If you are arthritic, try firing off a few 9mm or M1911 rounds from a semi-crouched position (again assuming little time available for a good stance). Your hands may not hurt all that much, but you will probably be off target. If you are elderly or severely arthritic, you might even drop the gun. An 8mm auto has far less recoil while still having good stopping power. Don't even try this with an 8mm or a .32 caliber revolver. The trigger pull will cause the same aim and/or drop hazard as a higher caliber auto. Moreover, the slower rate of fire for a revolver is probably a disadvantage in any close-quarter firefight.
Lastly, a better home defense system is to have not one but two dogs. A German Shepherd, Rottweiler, or Mastiff will make short work of most burglars. However, have a yappy terrier, too. Mine wakes up and barks when strangers (and friends) walk too close to the house. A yappy wire fox will discourage more burglars than your shepherd will ever chomp.
chsw
Posted by: chsw at October 17, 2006 09:22 PM (WdHqZ)
111
Interesting thread, lots of good ideas.
My ideas. I live in the country.
Average Deputy Sheriff response time is 45 minutes.
1. I haven't "invasion proofed" my house, but all doors are always locked.
2. "Many" people out here have guns. Cuts down on "perps" and their "ideas".
3. My first line of defense is my Lab mix "Sally". She is ALWAYS near me.
She sleeps on her rug by my bed, floor-level window open a bit for "sound/smell".
Unfortunately, she sometimes "alerts" on coyotes sniffing around the place.
I'll live with that in return for her "always on duty" service.
4. I keep my cell phone "on" at night. 911 is programmed. "You'all come on out and clean up the mess".
5. Gun choice is not relevant if I'm not awake and alert enough to use it.
6. I keep a 9 mm. Beretta 92 by the bed.
Yes, I know this is a "mouse-gun" caliber,
but I KNOW how to use it, forwards, backwards, sideways, and half-asleep.
And, after the first 16 shots of Rem. Golden Saber hollow-points, the next mag is "handy".
If those can't "do it", I'd guess I'm in REAL BIG trouble. {:^)
Your mileage may vary, but "comfort level" is what counts.
P.S.
As a kid, age 7-14 I used a .410 single-shot for duck hunting.
And, bagged quite a few. This is "tough shooting".
Then I got a Win. 1912 12 gauge pump. Had to let the ducks "get out a ways" to have something to eat.
And, I have seen what .410 "slugs" can do to a garbage dump refrigerator.
They WILL STOP a perp.
My father's Win. Model 1897 12 gauge pump and my great uncle's Rem. Model 37 16 gauge pump are locked in my gun cabinet.
Nice guns, but too unwieldy to use on a "wake-up" call from my dog.
Posted by: Dan_P at October 17, 2006 09:27 PM (eOxCX)
112
could someone suggest a good self-defense pistol for a petite 5' 2" 100lb female with small hands?
I know a lot of people will bitch about this as being a wimpy recommendaiton, but a Walther .32 PP would be light, controllable, and loaded with Silvertips can do the job.
Posted by: Purple Avenger at October 17, 2006 09:52 PM (k5pDn)
113
Re; Confederate Yankee's Updates.
The 410 with #4 shot makes more sense than the #6-#9 I usually think of as birdshot at the ranges specified. I'd just point out that a lot of serious people would consider the "up to" six inches as on the shallow side, especially with the possibility of shoulder bones, breast bones, leather jackets etc. getting in the way. Depending on your home, you may need to shoot beyond the 3-5 yard average as well.
I personally think the concerns about too much penetration are way over blown.
MANY YEARS AGO, I discovered that 12 ga. Fiocchi 00 buck, fired from an 18.5 inch Mossberg 500 at a range of about 2 yards, would not penetrate the genuine plaster wall of my circa 1950 house. I don't know what all is in that wall (other than those 9 pellets and the DAP I used to patch it up), but they didn't come out the other side. I don't remember any "flash bang" effect, but I may have been immunized against it by the "Jack Daniels" effect I was experiencing at the time.
Anyhow, I've enjoyed this thread and appreciate that you don't need an XM-2006-Gazooka with a 90 round mag for a house gun. I just remain skeptical about the birdshot.
Posted by: Karl at October 17, 2006 10:04 PM (0WmLX)
114
"could someone suggest a good self-defense pistol for a petite 5' 2" 100lb female with small hands?"
"I know a lot of people will bitch about this as being a wimpy recommendaiton, but a Walther .32 PP would be light, controllable, and loaded with Silvertips can do the job."
Posted by Purple Avenger at October 17, 2006 09:52 PM
Not a bad suggestion, but how about a .32 Beretta Tomcat ?
I have one, just for fun, not for "real defense".
But, its "tilt barrel" load/unload feature is a real plus for "small hands" (read "weak").
It eliminates the "blowback" spring problem in chambering/unchambering a round. And, makes it very easy to "check" its "status".
And, if you aren't after "total stopping power",
this is certainly a "pocket or purse" pistol.
And, yes, mine has "Silvertips", thank you. {:^)
Posted by: Dan_P at October 17, 2006 10:12 PM (eOxCX)
115
This post is funny as shit - it really brings the crazies out of the woodwork. So I'll put my 2 cents in as well. If someone breaks into my house, then they'll probably break their neck on my kids toys on the floor. If that doesn't work, then I'll flip on the light switch and yell, "what the f*** are you doing in here?!". Lastly, I will have my light 20ga bird gun loaded with bird shot ready.
A more manueverable, low penetrating option would be a .22 long-rifle handgun loaded with alternating solid points (for penetration) and hollow points (for knock down). Now I'm starting to scare myself.
Posted by: Jim at October 17, 2006 10:58 PM (VytgR)
116
There is nothing more scary for a burgular or prowler in the dark than hearing someone jack a shell in the chamber of a 12 Ga pump. I'm partial to a small 20 Ga double barrel for the home, stick it in someone face and watch them change colors. For the vehicle I carry a 9MM semi auto with 3 15 roung clips. May have to assist the police in a shootout some day. Like my 75 YO neighbor said, 'if they break in my house they'd better not let me reach back to scratch my a**'. He keeps a 357 in the side of his recliner between the arm and the cushion. With the liberals nipping at the door for a lot of offices it's more important than ever to be well armed. Terrorists will be in the streets soon.
Posted by: Scrapiron at October 17, 2006 11:12 PM (fEnUg)
117
Is anyone that believes that a 410 with birdshot wouldn't deter a home invader willing to jump in front of my Mossberg? Have you ever seen the fire that comes out of a shotgun barrel at night? If you think that a burgler that is looking down the business end of a 410 that is being fired at him won't be motivated to get the F**k out of your house, you are sadly mistaken. When you start firing he'll be running, guaranteed. I know from experience!
JM
Posted by: JM at October 17, 2006 11:14 PM (GWlTW)
118
That being said, (which I acknowledge as being subject to debate) my general recommendation for the new/infrequent/non shooter looking for a home defense weapon is a pistol caliber autoloading carbine. Much easier to master than a handgun, not as problematic as a heavybore shotgun, and usually at least as, if not a bit more effective than a handgun in terms of power.
Any opinions on the Marlin 1894C for home defense? (and there's a Winchester equivalent though I think it's out of production now). I have two .357s (Rossi and Taurus) and like the idea of one round for everything.
Posted by: Christopher Fotos at October 17, 2006 11:33 PM (hjjkI)
119
JM;
You're probably right on all your points MOST of the time, but playing devil's advocate for the fun of it; How much fire comes out of your 410 at two in the afternoon on a bright sunny day?
Looking down the business end of your 410 might motivate him to run like hell and mess his pants at the same time, but what if it motivates him to shoot you ten or twelve times with the Glock he's got in his hand?
Nothing is guaranteed. Cops run into guys all the time who, even though they are out numbered and out gunned, stand there and blast away until they get killed. One of the reasons the bad guys get killed more often than the cops is because the cops don't carry 410s with birdshot.
Posted by: Karl at October 17, 2006 11:53 PM (0WmLX)
120
If someone breaks into my house, then they'll probably break their neck on my kids toys on the floor.
I heard that. And he better not be barefoot: Legos. OW OW OW OW OW!
If that doesn't work, then I'll flip on the light switch and yell, "what the f*** are you doing in here?!". Lastly, I will have my light 20ga bird gun loaded with bird shot ready.
In my house he's going to get "Run or I'll shoot!"
He'd better run.
yours/
peter.
Posted by: Peter Jackson at October 18, 2006 12:17 AM (LQEWm)
121
Deterrence is well and good, but if deterrence was the end of the conversation we'd all be keeping convincing replicas in our homes rather than actual firearms. We don't do that, because if the deterrent effect fails, the weapon still needs to be capable of handling the situation.
While I sympathize with those who feel that underpenetration is more of a problem than overpenetration, this is another area where the person actually selecting the gun needs to evaluate his own situation. If you're living in a large house, or are well away from your nearest neighbors, it's okay to err a little more on the side of overpenetration. On the other hand, if you live in a thin-walled apartment building, where you may well be surrounded on three sides by noncombatants, it might be wiser to sacrifice some penetration ability in the name of avoiding risk to your neighbors.
Posted by: cwp at October 18, 2006 01:55 AM (Ja3Jt)
122
Interesting read. I was just wondering, what percentage of American burglars are actually armed? Does anybody know? Thanks in advance.
Posted by: Anonymous for now at October 18, 2006 08:44 AM (kRkl8)
123
Birdshot? HAH!
Rifle or revolver, get a BB gun of the same type, practice with that, once a month. Won't help with recoil issues, but if you have a big enough gun, there are no recoil issues.
Shoot a guy once, then wait to see if you need to shoot him again? ONLY IF THERE IS MORE THAN ONE. Otherwise, empty the thing into him, looks better in court, you were feared for your life.
I use a 38 auto, hollow point, two clips of five. But thats for me, anyone else I would say get a revolver. I tell my friends to shoot close, real close, preferably with the gun pointing up into the neck of the intruder, if it gets that far. Don't aim with the gun held out in front of you, until you know that they are far enough away, they will just bat it away if they are close enough. You can't predict what an intruder will do any more than you can predict which way a deer will jump on a road. I hold my gun with my right hand, close in, my left hand is out in front to block, until I can see who is where.
But the main thing is the BB gun, you can use that in an apartment.
Posted by: xiaoding at October 18, 2006 09:01 AM (sQKTc)
124
For a first-time gun owner, planning to use the weapon for self-defence, and with young children in the house, what's your recommended solution for securing the weapon, while maintaining emergency availablity?
Posted by: Eric J at October 18, 2006 09:40 AM (hrQvk)
125
Karl,
Like others have stated, at close range (as in inside a house) the 410 impact is much more concentrated compared with shooting birds in a field. The concentration of pellets is much greater. How well could you aim and shoot a Glock with a face full of bird shot. Take a look at the actual spread pattern of a 410 at close range. If you are on the receiving end it isn't pretty. At longer range such as outdoors you may as well be shooting a high powered bb gun at someone. Even a large caliber weapon may not stop a drug hyped intruder. When I'm out of town my wife relies on our dogs and a portable chemical fire extinguisher by the bed for protection. It may sound silly but it would be very difficult to continue a home intrusion when you have a face / eyes full of chemical agent and two cattle dogs are dragging you around by your ankles. The bottom line is this is home defense, you're not hunting or going to war. If your are an experienced shooter then the larger caliber guns are fine. I have a 12 gauge riot shotgun as well as the 410. But my Mossberg home defense 410 is much easier to handle and use indoors. By the way I've practiced with both in the confined area of an old house about to be demoed. I was a 12 gauge junky till I tried a friends Mossberg. Your milage may vary, but most of the people that get guns for home defense aren't at the range every weekend. And a 12 gauge is alot of shotgun. Pistols take practice and when someone is in a panic with an intruder you want to get the intruder to feel much safer outside your house than inside with you blazing away with a shotgun, regardless of caliber.
JM
Posted by: JM at October 18, 2006 09:49 AM (GWlTW)
126
Great to see so many great ideas being put forward! I agree mostly with Dan_P, simply because his situation closely resembles my own, "Country Living".
First Line of Defense: 3 each 50+ pound outside-only dogs. Knowing these dogs and reading their calls lets me know exactly how to respond to a situation even before I get out of bed.
Second Line of Defense: 1 vicious Rat Terrier inside the home. She has bitten before & will gladly bite again, raising hell the whole time.
Third Line of Defense: I keep a variety of weapons handy, from a .22 and .410 all the way up to a Mossberg M500 with 18.5" barrel & pistol grip for man-sized targets.
As mentioned above, the concussion from this beast is extreme, but I figure I shouldn't need more than 1 shot as the recipient of the blast will be in MUCH worse shape than me being deaf and half-blind.
Posted by: TxMarko at October 18, 2006 02:40 PM (Q/Io0)
127
This is a great discussion. Yipyap dogs are great, and for now, that's all I have (They don't belong to me-I'm a Lab man). I once owned a Lab that had a growl so low that he probably scared himself when he used it. (I think someone actually makes a recording of a sinister growl that you can buy?) To me, a big, noisy dog is the best alert (besides geese). With a big dog with cajones, the dog can sense fear, and the growl or bark they make will tell you whether to arm up or go see your friend that just drove up.
As far as firearms? I'm lucky and single, so I can keep my M9 on my nightstand, and my 12.ga bird gun up in the corner. I ain't worried about 12 gauge birdshot vs. buckshot at 15 ft..
No one has mentioned SureFire or other tactical flashlights: I like those things, and if you've ever had one shined in your face at night, they DO make you turn away. That could be enough by itself, but you do give up your position, so doing so is probably not a good idea unless you have lead to back it up.
Nobody has mentioned the Beretta Storm yet. I think they look cool, I'm not worried about walls and kids and such, and am looking for a reason to purchase one (in .45 or maybe .40, mounted tactical light, laser or maybe holosight)... Since nobody has mentioned this weapon, what would be the disadvanteges vs. a shotgun in a driveway or house?
bullfrog
Posted by: bullfrog at October 18, 2006 04:46 PM (SPIuO)
128
For a first-time gun owner, planning to use the weapon for self-defence, and with young children in the house, what's your recommended solution for securing the weapon, while maintaining emergency availablity?
Small children in the house? Two words: gun safe. Preferably one with an electronic keypad, most of which will deactivate if the wrong combination is entered three times in a row.
Yes they are expensive. My children's safety is worth it. I'm sure yours' is too.
yours/
peter.
Posted by: Peter Jackson at October 18, 2006 04:57 PM (LQEWm)
129
I think it should be said that a few years ago here in Atlanta a young lady (Sarah Tokars)was killed in front of her two young children by two men hired to kill her by her husband (Fred Tokars)
The murder weapon used was a short .410 shotgun similar to a model called the snake charmer, The children Identified the weapon by describing it as a Pirate pistol. They were kidnapped in their driveway and taken to a quiet location. The Sarah was shot when she refused to leave her children in the car. she was shot in her Car's front seat.
The lady was struck at close range in the head by "birdshot" and died instantly.
Let's not blow up too much about macho bull shi'ite "I can take a shot and beat your a$$ afterwards" If you are shot by any gunpowder powered projectiles Bubba, you will be injured, possibly severly and you could even Die.
Unless of course your Rambo or some other hollywood hero.
Posted by: Barry 03 at October 18, 2006 05:32 PM (fEnUg)
130
Bullfrog
I think you'll find the storm is pricey compared to a shotgun. But, it sure is a nice looking weapon. They even have wallpaper so you can drool on your keyboard. I'd love to have an FN FAL but my toy budget isn't lottery driven.
JM
Posted by: JM at October 18, 2006 10:34 PM (GWlTW)
131
JM;
What I and a bunch of others here have been saying is not for or against a particular firearm or chambering, but against using birdshot for self defense.
As I said above, I think a 410 is a viable self defense long gun with the rifled slug or the buckshot.
Most people think penetration is an important consideration in choosing a gun/load for self defense. If you don't, you don't. If you do, check it out for yourself, like I did. At point blank range birdshot acts like a slug and would be devastating. at a mere 15 feet, penetration is very shallow, inferior to 25acp or 22 short fired from a pistol. If you check it out, you'll be suprised how close to the muzzle birdshot ( I was testing #6 from a 16 ga., cylinder bore) fails to penetrate worth squat.
Posted by: Karl at October 18, 2006 11:42 PM (HhuZq)
132
The big thing many of you are ignoring is that there was ZERO training in the example that CY gave - these people were unpracticed, untrained, and probably unsafe as hell. The solution he gave fit THEM. There is *NO* one size fits all solution. You can go on and on about tactical usage, but in the hand of an untrained scared and uncertain civilian, your tactical "expert" solution is just so much horsecrap and unsuable, and woudl either get them or the kids in the next room killed or injured.
Unlike you (or me for that matter), my wife had to defend herself in our home when I was away - shed used #8 shot in a 20ga pump, and it worked (although I do admit to keeping it loaded with 8, and a slug alternating because I had doubts too about the stopign power).
15 foot living room, attacker coming at her in the dark. She was untrained and stupidly told the guy to Freeze (like on TV, agh!) so naturally he wheeled and charged her. Shot was at 7 feet or so per the police reports. And he was dead when he hit the ground. Proud of her - center mass shot, knocked him down and back and stopped his heart; 165 pound male intruder (crack head).
So Karl and others, kiss my wife's ass - she's alive and proof - you go on shooting phone books and shooting BS here.
Ironic thing is we moved out of that neighborhood shortly thereafter, and now our kids are grown out out on their own (one just got back from Afghanistan), so the whole reason for worrying about overpenetration is gone anyways.
But that being said, I do agree that if they are willing to be trained and practice regularly, there are better solutions, and the handgun is optimal in a house. My wife found out the value of a good firearm (after being a bit opposed to them), and I've had no trouble getting her to the range on a monthly basis all these years since, and she & her Glock23 are smooth (Silvertips); she double taps instinctively and gets the second shot grouped well at home defense ranges. In untrained hands and thin walls, a 20ga with #8 is plenty good - and probably the best solution for someone that isnt going to invest the time and effort until after the fact. As for my personal take I believe a pistol in well trained hands beats a shotgun (or any other longarm) with any load on any day inside a dark house. The right answer for CY was to get the coupel a 20ga and #8 and slugs, show them how to laod it, and get a commitment from them to COME BACK and get trained properly - and then sell them a proper handgun.
Posted by: WA at October 19, 2006 09:41 AM (J1K5t)
133
The big thing many of you are ignoring is that there was ZERO training in the example that CY gave - these people were unpracticed, untrained, and probably unsafe as hell. The solution he gave fit THEM. There is *NO* one size fits all solution. You can go on and on about tactical usage, but in the hand of an untrained scared and uncertain civilian, your tactical "expert" solution is just so much horsecrap and unsuable, and woudl either get them or the kids in the next room killed or injured.
Unlike you (or me for that matter), my wife had to defend herself in our home when I was away - shed used #8 shot in a 20ga pump, and it worked (although I do admit to keeping it loaded with 8, and a slug alternating because I had doubts too about the stopign power).
15 foot living room, attacker coming at her in the dark. She was untrained and stupidly told the guy to Freeze (like on TV, agh!) so naturally he wheeled and charged her. Shot was at 7 feet or so per the police reports. And he was dead when he hit the ground. Proud of her - center mass shot, knocked him down and back and stopped his heart; 165 pound male intruder (crack head).
So Karl and others, kiss my wife's ass - she's alive and proof - you go on shooting phone books and shooting BS here.
Ironic thing is we moved out of that neighborhood shortly thereafter, and now our kids are grown out out on their own (one just got back from Afghanistan), so the whole reason for worrying about overpenetration is gone anyways.
But that being said, I do agree that if they are willing to be trained and practice regularly, there are better solutions, and the handgun is optimal in a house. My wife found out the value of a good firearm (after being a bit opposed to them), and I've had no trouble getting her to the range on a monthly basis all these years since, and she & her Glock23 are smooth (Silvertips); she double taps instinctively and gets the second shot grouped well at home defense ranges. In untrained hands and thin walls, a 20ga with #8 is plenty good - and probably the best solution for someone that isnt going to invest the time and effort until after the fact. As for my personal take I believe a pistol in well trained hands beats a shotgun (or any other longarm) with any load on any day inside a dark house. The right answer for CY was to get the coupel a 20ga and #8 and slugs, show them how to laod it, and get a commitment from them to COME BACK and get trained properly - and then sell them a proper handgun.
Posted by: WA at October 19, 2006 09:43 AM (J1K5t)
134
WA
Do you actually read the posts before you respond to them? Do you imagine It takes a lot more "training" to pull the trigger on a 20 ga. loaded with buckshot than a 20 ga. loaded with #8s?
I'm glad your wife prevailed, but anecdotes don't prove much. Lots of people havw defended themselves with claw hammers, pots and pans, sharp sticks etc. As for kissing your wife's ass, I appreciate the invite, but I'm not into that menage a trois stuff.
Posted by: Karl at October 19, 2006 03:22 PM (I7efp)
135
Ok, so I skipped thru some of the posts so I may be reinerating what others have said.
First, I love the idea of a 410, smaller yet quite effective, and my girlfriend would not shy away from practicing with it al all.
Birdshot though, I would have to pass. I have read to many stories of homeowners losing everything to intruders that they only wounded. With our liberal courts protecting the scum more and more, the likelyhood of having to pay out to some a$$hole that broke into your home is getting higher. So why would you want to let them survive the encounter? You may just loose everything your trying to protect.
Has anyone ever heard of Glaser Safety Slugs?
They come in many calibers and most will not penatrate drywall, yet they will do serious damage to a body. Safe, yet curiously deadly.
Posted by: Proud Infidel at October 22, 2006 01:25 PM (ZzAby)
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No. Korea: ''A Declaration of War''
Captain Poofy is starting to sound like a great proponent of regime change, primarily his own:
Blaming the United States for instigating U.N. Security Council sanctions against it, North Korea on Tuesday called the resolution approved over the weekend a "declaration of war."
North Korea's Foreign Ministry said in a statement carried by the official Korean Central News Agency that the country wants "peace but is not afraid of war."
The North "vehemently denounces the resolution, a product of the U.S. hostile policy toward (the North) and totally refutes it," the statement said, according to a report from The Associated Press.
North Korea's statement followed U.S. Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice calling the U.N. resolution a "clear message" that Pyongyang must "make a new set of calculations" about its nuclear endeavors.
"North Korea cannot endanger the world and then expect other nations to conduct business as usual in arms or missile parts," Rice told reporters on Monday. "It cannot destabilize the international system and then expect to exploit elaborate financial networks built for peaceful commerce."
As some have mentioned previously, the nuclear gambit is North Korea's last straw. They have nothing else with which to threaten the world. Their nuclear threats fall short with missiles that won't fly and nuclear weapons that won't detonate, and their massive conventional army is decades obsolete. All the have left is their arms business, and the U.N. blockade is taking that away.
At the current rate of escalation, I would not be all that surprised to find North Korea may very well be considering a disasterous invasion of South Korea if a pending second nuke test fails. They had so little to begin with, that they have almost nothing else to lose.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
06:19 AM
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I think we're missing the real heart of the issue, as stated here, with regards to Uncle Kim's love of Hennessey:
"He is the largest customer over the last 10 years, averaging between $650,000 and $720,000 a year in purchases -- while the average [North] Korean earns only about $900 a year."
Sanctions would probably put a dent in his boozing, unless he's been stockpiling it just in case.
Posted by: paully at October 17, 2006 08:41 AM (gLHFl)
2
You just gotta hope that he doesn't now suffer DTs, flop around, see attacking American troops in his delirium, and push some apocalyptic buttons.
But seriously, I think it's time to tell the ChiComs in NO uncertain terms that America will have to nuclear arm Japan and Taiwan to stave off the articulated clear and present danger. China has thus far been getting a pass when they could have ended ill Kim's madness LONG ago were it not for their favoring all things anti-American.
~(Ä)~
Posted by: Rocketman ~(Ä)~ at October 18, 2006 09:09 AM (NlvMC)
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October 16, 2006
Left-Wing Lawyer to be Sentenced For Aiding Terrorism
Lynne Stewart, the radical liberal lawyer convicted of providing material support for terrorism, faces being sentenced for up to 30 years today. Her defense team's strategy?
She and her allies are pinning their hopes for leniency on a strategy that argues she became so emotionally involved in the sheik's case that she acted irrationally — a strategy that is underpinned by a sealed letter to the court from a psychiatrist.
A psychiatric report submitted to the federal judge in Manhattan who will decide the sentence, John Koeltl, claims that several emotional events in Stewart's life suggest her actions were motivated by "human factors of her client and his situation" and not by politics, according to portions of the psychiatric report.
The psychiatrist, Steven Teich, points to 11 emotional events that he claims prompted her to want to take action on Abdel Rahman's behalf, Stewart's attorneys say. Among the events that make Dr.Teich's list are her experiences seeing Abdel Rahman incarcerated and the 1995 suicide of a drug defendant named Dominick Maldonado, whom Stewart had once represented.
"Ms. Stewart's commitment to the protection of her client, the Sheik, in prison was magnified by emotions from her perceived failure to protect her former client Mr. Maldonado, which had, consequently, resulted in his death by suicide," Mr. Teich wrote.
While the evaluation by Dr. Teich is filed under seal, Stewart's attorneys quote portions of it at length in public legal papers.
Stewart's behavior was "emotionally based and sometimes impulsive" and her mental state while representing Abdel Rahman "immobilized her critical ability to evaluate the potential consequences of her actions," according to the psychiatric report.
In other words, they are claiming that Stewart became a traitor to her country because she let her perceived failures and emotions get the better of her, not because she was inherently or willfully disloyal.
Somehow, that defense sounds familiar... where have I
heard it before?
This "emotionally-based and sometimes impulsive" behavior did not start
in 2000 or in September 11, 2001, in
October of 2001, or
March of 2003. It is instead a inherent structural flaw in a group of people going back decades.
Once upon a time liberals were classic liberals, pulling for individual rights, equal opportunity, freedom, and peace. I didn't agree with the methods they espoused towards realizing their ideals, but I could at least respect their ideals, if not their plans for implementation.
Somewhere, however, liberals began to lose their liberalism and thirst for universal freedoms. As
Dr. Sanity noted, they traded their ideals for ideology, and have now reached a point where:
...every issue supported by the Left, and almost all of the behavior exhibited by the Left is completely antithetical to classical liberal philosophies. There is no longer a commitment to personal liberty or to freedom. The Left is far too busy to promote freedom for the common man or woman, because their time is taken up advocating freedom for tyrants who oppress the common man; terrorists who kill the common man; and religious fanatics who subjugate the common woman.
The intellectuals who once promoted the IDEA of freedom, now are ensnared in an IDEOLOGY that depends for its very existence on the silencing of speech; the suppression of ideas; and the persecution of those who dare to refute its tenets.
Patriotism and love of one’s country is mocked by those who once fought to bring the American Dream to all American citizens; and who once championed those who were prevented from sharing in that Dream. Slowly and inexorably those idealists who once shouted, “we shall overcome,” morphed into a toxic culture promoting a never-ending victimhood that cannot possibly be overcome. Love of American ideals and values was transformed into the most perverse and vile anti-Americanism –where all things originating or “tainted” as American are uniquely bad; and where America became the source of all evil in the world.
This is the worldview that seems to have ensnared Lynne Stewart, and forms the basis for her defense as she is about to be sentenced for aiding and abetting terrorism. "I didn't
mean to become a traitor," seems to be her cry, "my emotions made me do it." It seems beyond her that emotions led her to support those who would take away
everything that she professed to support in a lifetime of liberal activism.
Liberals are not liberal anymore, and have not been for decades.
Many no longer even choose to identify themselves as such, perhaps subconsciously acknowledging that as they brand themselves as "progressives," without even realizing what they are progressing towards; Statism, the destruction of free speech, the crushing of dissent, the willful abandonment of a platform that once declared all should have equal rights to life liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.
Their new platform is something else entirely.
Progressives
don’t want peace; they just don't support our going to war.
They push to surrender in Iraq and Afghanistan—or as the style it, "redeploy"—because they claim that the cost of American lives is too high. The are ashamed to address what occurred when they were able to convince us to withdraw from Somalia and Vietnam. They perhaps saved tens of thousands of American soldier's lives by forcing politically-motivated withdrawals, but at what cost?
Millions died in Southeast Asia as a result of a successful anti-war movement in the United States forcing us to retreat, and the
Murtha-led retreat from Somalia inspired Osama bin Laden to the African embassy bombings, the attack on the USS
Cole, and eventually 9/11/01.
Progressives still claim to support individual freedoms and feminism and equality, but shamefully propose to abandon two fledgling nations struggling to find democracy to Islamists that subjugate people for being of a different ethnic group, or religion, or race, or gender.
How is this surrender to oppression in any way in confluence with the classical concept of liberalism? Put bluntly, it is not.
Liberalism, or at least those who today claim to be liberal and progressive, has become the refuge of back-biting isolationists that long ago gave up any pretense of finding freedom and equality concepts worth fighting for in favor of a morally bankrupt ideology blindly seeking power and relevance at any cost. Once more, those that claim to be liberals urge us to turn our backs on the ideals that made American great.
Justice. Honor. Freedom. Equality.
These noble concepts are snorted at with derision by an American Left today that in no way shares the ideals of those who came before. No one truly interested in human rights and justice and equality could abandon Iraq to insurgent Islamists and elements of al Qaeda advocating sharia law, nor abandoning Afghanistan to a brutal Taliban that subjugates women and murders homosexuals and others who deemed unworthy under brutal and primitive Sharia law. These "liberals" would condemn more than 50 million people to oppression because the price we've paid thus far is too much for their tender sensibilities.
Lynne Stewart braces for sentencing today as one liberal that long ago abandoned her stated principles in favor of an ideology most un-American. Thousands more just like her view her impending incarceration as a travesty of justice, without understanding that it is instead their beliefs that run counter to every ideal this nation holds dear. Ironically, they think they are the voices of freedom and reason.
Freedom is not earned by submission. Cowardice does not buy liberty. Retreat does not win equality.
Somehow, so called liberals lost sight of those basic facts long ago.
Update: I said "cowardice does not buy liberty"... but convicted felon and liberal moneyman George Soros came damn close. Soros
funded a significant portion of Stewart's legal defense.
Stewart was
sentenced today to to a whopping 28
months in prison. Her paralegal Ahmed Sattar got 24
years for conspiracy to kidnap and kill those in a foreign country.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
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Justice. Honor. Freedom. Equality.
These noble concepts are snorted at with derision by an American Left today that in no way shares the ideals of those who came before.
Abu Ghraib. Waterboarding. Stress positions.
Keep preaching to us about the moral superiority of the American Right...
Posted by: Phoenician in a time of Romans at October 16, 2006 04:32 PM (iYlrE)
2
Phoenician,
Waterboarding vs Beheading... you can argue about the wrongs of individuals all you want but in the end you have to choose sides. I think it is a great testament to this nation that our citizens will not stand for relatively minor(considering the historical and international record on torture) mistakes by our side. at the same time, it is mind boggling how people can some how come to the conclusion that these occurrances not only make us equally evil as our enemy, but worthy of losing the war at the cost of millions of innocents here and abroad.
Wars do not end without a victor; regardless of our indiscretions, to deny that we must win this war is at best naive and stupid, at worst it is treasonous and fascistic.
Posted by: K-Det at October 16, 2006 07:08 PM (aaP7C)
3
Still trying to pin the slaughter in Cambodia on America's withdrawl from Vietnam?
Hard to square with the fact that the Vietnemese are the ones who put a stop to the "killing fields."
Posted by: monkyboy at October 16, 2006 07:45 PM (unUeA)
4
Pleeeeaaaassee tell me that wasn't a reference to "waterboards" and "stress positions" as some sort of heinous atrocity. You can do better than that. being waterboarded sucks, but it's probably got long term effects similar to being tickle-tortured for an hour.
when i was at SERE school, some of the guys in the class wanted to see what being water boarded was like, so they resisted past all reason and the instructors obliged them. to a man, and we're talking about marine officers and a SEAL, they said that after being water boarded they told the instructors anything they wanted to hear because it freaked them out.
were they sitting in the fetal position in class? no. having had it done on them, they recognized how effective it was because it's such a powerful tool. is there a risk of death? no. you just think you're going to drown, but you wont. are the terrorists probably pissed off and crying torture because they completely freaked out and spilled the beans? wouldn't surprise me.
Open question: Have any journalists volunteered to be water boarded to see what it's like? It might sound ridiculous but..why not?
Anyway, this woman is claiming to be a slave to her emotional impulses, and her occasional whackjob sessions make her a threat to those around her. She ought to be treated as such, and be placed in a mental institution so that she doesn't accidentally get emotionally involved with terrorists and whatnot. It's for her own safety.
Posted by: paully at October 16, 2006 09:00 PM (yJuX3)
5
Waterboarding vs Beheading...
A difference in degree, rather than kind.
you can argue about the wrongs of individuals all you want but in the end you have to choose sides.
Very good - I choose the side of civilization rather than barbarity. Your country has degenerated to resemble the thing it claims to struggle against.
I take pride in being able to state that my country does not torture people. Any thinking American would be deeply humiliated by the fact that they cannot say the same.
Justice. Honor. Freedom. Equality - remember?
Posted by: Phoenician in a time of Romans at October 16, 2006 10:57 PM (iYlrE)
6
Freedom is not earned by submission
It was for the Confederacy...or at least for the Confederacy's former slaves.
Posted by: Hed at October 16, 2006 11:53 PM (ZS4Cu)
7
Freedom is not earned by submission. Cowardice does not buy liberty.
Does this mean that you believe those Iraqis attempting to kill the American invaders occupying their country are right to do so?
Posted by: Phoenician in a time of Romans at October 17, 2006 12:03 AM (iYlrE)
8
Put your hand on the phone-ah, dial the number, see that your free to be carrying on-ah, when your gone-ah...
Posted by: Pinko Punko at October 17, 2006 12:46 AM (6F6lT)
9
What country are you from? Pamphletpropagandastan? Those little snipings are pretty tired. Why not bring in your experiences from your utopic country, which you mentioned is free of any oppression, and throw around some original ideas?
Posted by: paully at October 17, 2006 01:00 AM (yJuX3)
10
Paully:
Phoenician wanders into blogs spewing all over the place until it finally pisses off the blog owner and gets banned, in which case it finds a new one.
Looks like Confederate Yankee's the next lucky host.
Posted by: Patrick Chester at October 17, 2006 03:21 AM (MKaa5)
11
Go Braveheart Bob!
Ban everyone who disagrees with you. Way to show that Kiwi who's boss of this little house of cards!
Posted by: Lint at October 17, 2006 08:07 AM (lf6+g)
12
you cant spell "banality" without "ban".

Posted by: paully at October 17, 2006 08:29 AM (gLHFl)
13
Hard to square with the fact that the Vietnemese are the ones who put a stop to the "killing fields."
I would suggest you read Chandlers's Brother Number One
Posted by: Purple Avenger at October 17, 2006 10:06 AM (k5pDn)
14
Well, paully, it may have something to do with the fact that we prosecuted Japanese soldiers for waterboarding. War crime in 1945, but really effective interrogation technique now? As a graduate of a SERE course myself, I am constantly amused by the comparison if its use on highly trained troops in a known training environment, with its use on civilian prisoners under our control who have no recourse.
Followed only by the first class cognitive dissonance that you don't have to prove a single one is guilty before you use a war crime to extract information. The irrational rationalization being, I suppose, its not really that big a deal, so if they're innocent, no harm done. It takes a special kind of crazy to fit that in your head, and then advocate having it written into your "law".
Posted by: Officious Pedant at October 17, 2006 12:13 PM (688sS)
15
I want the three minutes of my life back that I spent reading this.
So "liberal" is o.k., but the liberals have forgotten what that means? Yes CY, it is the left that is pushing to destroy free speech and squelch dissent. Damn man, what color is the sky in your world?
Posted by: T.S. Garp at October 17, 2006 03:55 PM (pSZ41)
16
You guys do realize that the Republicans wanted a US withdrawal from Somalia, right?
Statement of Republican Policy on U.S. Armed Forces in Somalia, Adopted April 1, 1993
Posted by: AJB at October 18, 2006 07:36 AM (C8fuN)
17
...every issue supported by the Left, and almost all of the behavior exhibited by the Left is completely antithetical to classical liberal philosophies. There is no longer a commitment to personal liberty or to freedom.
Hm. I support Habeas Corpus. Apparently this makes me a fascist?
Bye bye, Republicans. It has been unpleasant dealing with you.
Posted by: brooksfoe at October 18, 2006 10:27 AM (OVjfO)
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October 15, 2006
Congressional Page Sex Predator Dies
That's the headline he would have gotten had he been a Republican unashamed of having sex with a page just 17 years old.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
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You summed it up, CY. The same standards are 180 degrees different when you are a member of the opposition, according to Nancy Pelosi.
Posted by: Tom TB at October 15, 2006 09:31 AM (GIL7z)
2
"Courage" -- Dan Rather
Posted by: Purple Avenger at October 15, 2006 11:27 AM (uLMbH)
3
Awww, poor little republicans. Never get treated fairly, do ya?
Posted by: EnoughIsTooMuch at October 15, 2006 03:50 PM (ACYOx)
4
IF Dubya had been caught out in public with a hamster up his rectum, I'll bet the headline would be this: "George W. Bush, Forty-Third President of the United States, Arrested In Gay Bar Brawl; Found To Have Hamster Up His Ass."
The World Of If is a wonderful world, indeed.
Posted by: Doc Washboard at October 15, 2006 05:02 PM (I5N7V)
5
Freaky! You and I think alike.... my headline was "Only US Congressman Who Admitted to Statutory Rape Dies Suddenly."
Heh.
Posted by: Bruce (GayPatriot) at October 16, 2006 08:06 AM (lV1tZ)
6
No doubt he should be ashamed, but whether he was a predator is arguable, and he didn't commit statuatory rape, because his victim was over the legal age, which in DC is 16, and in Colorado can be 12.
Instead of labeling people as liberals or republicans, it would be more productive to change the laws. But, I don't see much outrage about men porking barely legal females.
Posted by: dzho at October 16, 2006 12:13 PM (jb33V)
7
Huh huh, dzho said porking! Huh huh.
The emphasis between non statutory rape of a consenting child and sex between fully acknowledged consenting adults being considered the "Legal" part of the "barely LEGAL" age.
A unified age of acknowledged adulthood would be great but it isn't real so a line gets drawn somewhere.
So the rape wasn't statutory. Sex was still had buy a person of influence with what is considered and underage person regardless of their consent.
Wouldn't the world be great if laws that apply to bosses, parents and others in authority dealing with coercing sex from those arguably under their authority didn't apply equally to all and not just (to often) to Democratic political leaders?
Goose, gander.
A Foley by any other name or party is still a Foley.
Treat them accordingly or not at all.
Selective treatment is done for no other reason than ignorance, stupidity, cynical manipulative intent or some combination thereof.
Posted by: Brian at October 16, 2006 03:21 PM (6CDOn)
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October 13, 2006
Guards: I Can't Gitmo Satisfaction
If some of the stories told to Sgt. Heather Cerveny by guards at Guantanamo Bay are true, I hope the offenders are appropriately punished, but parts of Cerveny’s affidavit are simply sad:
During my conversations with these people, one Sailor who called himself Bo (rank and last name unknown) told the group stories involving detainees. Bo was 19 years old and had been working at Guantanamo Bay for almost one year. He was about 5”10” and 180 pounds. He was Caucasian, with blond hair and blue eyes. Bo told the other guards and me about him beating different detainees being help in the prison. One such story Bo told involved him taking a detainee by the head and hitting the detainee’s head into the cell door. Bo said that his actions wee known to others. I asked him if he had been charged with an offense for beating and abusing this detainee. He told me nothing happened to him. He received neither nonjudicial punishment or court-martial. And he never even received formal counseling. He was eventually moved to the maintenance section but this did not occur until some time after the incident where he slammed the detainee’s head into the cell door.
Detainee abuse is a bad thing, but Sgt. Heather’s apparent incredulity that Bo
didn’t even get counseling makes me either want to laugh or cry… I haven’t decided which yet.
It is worth noting that this and all the other admissions came as a lonely, undoubtedly horny sailors were trying to impress a girl in a bar. Pardon me if I hold out hope that his apparent attempt to be “bar tough” is just one more lie to join the hundreds of millions told in a fruitless attempt to impress women.
What Sgt. Heather also seems to consider abuse outside of several claims of hitting detainees, however, is well,
questionable.
I recall speaking with a guard named Steven. Steven was a Caucasian male, about 5”8”, 170 pounds, with brown hair and brown eyes. He stated that he used to work in Camp 5 but he now works in Camp 6. He works on one of the “blocks” as a guard. He told me that even when a detainee is being good, they will take his personal items away. He said that they do this to anger the detainees so that they can punish them when they object or complain. I asked Steven why he treats detainees this way. He said it is because he hates the detainees and that they are bad people. And he stated that he doesn’t like having to take care of them or be nice to them. Steven also added that his “only job was to keep the detainees alive.” I understood this to mean that as long as the detainees were kept alive, he didn’t care what happened to them.
I bet Sgt. Heather is probably a very nice person, kind to old people and animals, and is probably just the girl you’d like to take home to meet dear old Mom and Dad, but would someone please explain to her what holy Hell these people are in prison for?
They are Islamic terrorists who want nothing more than to see Americans dead. These same inmates have a long record of flinging various bodily liquids at guards, assaulting them with homemade weapons, and generally not being nice people. God forbid that Steven
doesn’t like them and occasionally confiscates the personal effects from an inmate that once forced him to remove a uniform covered in , urine, feces, spit, or semen, or who once tried to cut him with a
shiv.
And God forbid, she’s upset that they might not be getting their mail in a timely manner:
I asked Shawn why it often takes 6 months of so for them to get their mail. Shawn replied that there is often a delay because the mailroom personnel have to look through everything and get it translated prior to the mail being forwarded to detainees. I then asked why it would possibly still take six months if the mail matter was printed in English. Shawn said there wouldn’t really be a reason and it was not uncommon for them to withhold the mail of detainees until they, the mailroom clerks, decided to forward the mail.
Prisoner abuse—hitting and punching them without prevarication or just cause—is patently wrong. But Sgt. Heather seems to be under the delusion that Marines and sailors have a duty to be nice and go out of their way to provide prompt, courteous, and friendly service to terrorists, as if Guantanamo Bay was a resort. Someone needs to write this little Marine paralegal a reality check.
Of course,
Brian Ross sees this as a major scandal. I guess Foleygate must not be having the desired effect.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
03:47 PM
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Should the guards have been nice to the innocents who have since been released from Guantanamo?
Posted by: monkyboy at October 13, 2006 04:05 PM (unUeA)
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I watch Fox news frequently and read political blogs just to see how crazy the "other" side is....and often wonder if it were twenty years or thirty years earlier, I'd be seeing journalist defending torcher. How sad we have lowered ourselves.
I find myself watching the morning Fox and Friends, just so I can look up a girl's crotch and watch some pro-wrestling level debate, a cheap thrill if you will.
Would Walter Cronkite be a part of this crap? Not.
Reaching CY....Reaching.......(shaking my head and smiling)
Posted by: Johnny at October 13, 2006 06:23 PM (jmvhP)
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What you have is a young girl looking for attention so she took some bar room bragging and turned it into a story. If things work out she will have a nice two/three year vacation break at the brig in Ks. Lying in sworn statements will get you free transport and everything.
Posted by: Scrapiron at October 13, 2006 08:37 PM (fEnUg)
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What's so sad about the fact that he didn't get counseled? Oh, I forgot, you're a chickenhawk who doesnt know the first thing about soldiering. A counseling statement is the precursor to a punishment. You must be counseled by your superiors prior to a punishment as either a warning or a notification that you are facing an Article 15.
Good belittling of a female sergeant, too. You're an asshole.
Posted by: Ron at October 14, 2006 12:07 AM (BgCsf)
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CY:
When I think of the detainees in Guantanamo, I'm put in mind of those who were held in Abu Ghraib--not because of the torture allegations, although that does cross my mind. I'm thinking of the hundreds of innocents who were let out in mass releases after the Abu Ghraib abuses were publicized. These dudes, apparently, had done nothing; they'd been in the wrong place at the wrong time, or they'd been turned in for a bounty or whatever.
How many of those held in Guantanamo are in the same boat? Even if it is, as the Right calls it, "Club Gitmo," these dudes are being held with no hope of release ever, and it's possible that they are not, in fact, "enemy combatants" or whatever other term the Administration wants to make up to describe them.
Are we to believe the Administration's claim that they are all bad guys? Why? Because of their impeccable track record for honesty and thoroughness in these situations? That brings us full circle back to Abu Ghraib. Some of those guys were bad, but many were merely hapless.
The whole thing bothers me. I want to keep the bad guys behind bars, but I want to see the innocents go home. I'd rather not see anyone tortured, and let's start with the guys we have in custody. It's safe to say that none of them are the proverbial "ticking time bombs."
Posted by: Doc Washboard at October 14, 2006 09:02 AM (6+rMK)
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Enough of the Chicken hawk BS, Ron. Following typical chickenhawk logic then only the 700000 people, the number of soldiers that have gone through RFI, are allowed to have an opinion on Iraq. Its a stupid argument and the reason democrats were stuck with the dud Kerry...he supposedly had 'gotcha' points on Bush's service.
I was a First Sergeant on Abu Ghraib. The detainee population consisted of criminals, terrorists, people that were in the wrong place, people faking it for US medical care, and witnesses. That's right, witnesses. Its Legal under Iraqi law to detain witnesses to keep them from disappearing.
Next, they are called detainees because they haven't been proven guilty yet and are awaiting trial. They had satellite TV, plasma screens, surround sound, plenty of food, and excellent medical care. Tough life.
Had anyone committed those offenses we would have gone straight past counseling statements and to legal punishment. I have a good friend that was a guard at Gitmo and he indicates that nothing like that happened while he was there...not even after a poop throwing incident.
Thats my two cents. If you have never been to Abu or Gitmo, you are not allowed to have an opinion on what happens there, according to Ron.
Posted by: y7 at October 14, 2006 11:06 AM (I1rXq)
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Gitmo has got to be the most watched, talked about, investigated prison in the world. What about the thousands and thousands of people languishing in prisons in places like Yemen, does anyone ever even think about them? Is their fate of no import?
Posted by: Terrye at October 18, 2006 06:18 AM (4XoCB)
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Number Crunched
Thank you, Asymmetrical Information commenter Yancey Ward:
If there have been 650,000 excess deaths, and my understanding is that violence is the predominate cause of this excess, then I wonder about the ratio of wounded to dead. From my reading of history, in war there is about a 3 to 1 or greater ratio of wounded to dead in combat. If we take the study seriously, then we should also have well over 1.5 million wounded. Has anyone checked this out?
According to the Lancet’s
disputed study, 601,027 people—al Qaeda terrorists, insurgents, Iraqi soldiers, police, and true civilians—have been killed violently ("the most common cause being gunfire," says the summary) since the 2003 invasion of Iraq.
We also know that for every combat-related death, there are usually a far greater number of casualties. As
Donald Sensing notes in a 2004 post to his blog, the United States sustained a ratio of wounded to killed of 2.3:1 in World War II, 3.28:1 in Vietnam, and 9.5:1 in the current Iraq war (a
more current Newsday article from last week puts that figure at roughly 8:1).
The numbers look the way they do largely because of the advances made in medical and defensive technologies since the World War II and Vietnam era. U.S. soldiers that sustain wounds today will often survive what would have been killing wounds of 40 to 60 years ago, and they often won't sustain wounds where they might have in prior wars because of advances in vehicle and personnel armor.
Iraqi civilians do not wear body armor and as a rule neither do most insurgents or al Qaeda terrorists (though there are exceptions to that rule as well). Many Iraqi police and Army units do have body armor, as well as some lightly armored vehicles. While it is a simple SWAG, it would probably not be unreasonable to suspect that medical technologies available to the average Iraqi are probably not any worse than what our soldiers faced in World War Two, and may be better and approaching or exceeding Vietnam-era levels in some urban areas.
It is far from valid science (I, at least, admit it), but one might assume that a wounded to killed ratios of all Iraqis probably fits within the 2.3:1 and 3.28:1 figures of these prior wars, and a slightly higher number afforded by modern medical methods used in Iraqi civilian hospitals.
If we can therefore make that assumption (and I'm not entirely sure that we can, but I'm going to in an endeavor to prove a point) that the
Lancet accurately states that 601,027 Iraqis have been killed violently since 2003, then there would logically be a minimum of 1,382,363-1,971,369 Iraqis wounded by violence (using the WWII and Vietnam ratios). If the ratio of wounded surviving is better than that, then there should be in excess of 2 million wounded Iraqis in addition to those killed by violence, or a grand total of 1,983,390-2,572,396 Iraqi civilians that have either killed or wounded since 2003.
The
CIA World Factbook estimates the population of Iraq at 26,783,383 as of July.
Does the Lancet really want to stand behind a study that seems to suggest almost a tenth of Iraq's population has been killed or wounded in the past 3 years, and the world somehow overlooked it?
Funny think, statistics.
Update: In a post titled,
Reality checks: some responses to the latest Lancet estimates, the staff of
IraqBodyCount.org accuses the Lancet of over-inflating the civilian body count in Iraq.
Interestingly enough, IBC asked where the wounded are, how the media could have overlooked such carnage, how the Iraqi government could have participated in such a cover-up, and where the death certificates are.
If those questions sound familiar, it's because you've been reading this blog.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
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So if I read you correctly, you're taking battlefield statistics from two 20th century wars, applying the ratio of wounded to dead soldiers to the latest estimates of overall mortality figures for Iraqis, and concluding yet again that one of the most prestigious medical journals in the world is off its nut -- all because of the inspiring words of a commenter named "Yancey Ward."
These marijuana cigarettes you're smoking -- where can I get some?
Posted by: d at October 13, 2006 04:08 PM (LHK5X)
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d - instead of being snarky, why don't you use your self-proclaimed intellectual superiority and address the subject of the wounded?
If there has been a excess of 650,000 deaths - caused by violence - then isn't it likely that there has been an excess of wounded? If fighting occurs in populated areas, then isn't it reasonable to expect a higher proportion of wounded among the civilian population?
Or are we to surmise that the coalition's plan is to leave no witnesses, therefore most casualties would be deaths, rather than wounded?
Enlighten us.
Posted by: SouthernRoots at October 13, 2006 04:45 PM (jHBWL)
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It keeps getting better with you folks. It's amazing.
First, the proprietor of this blog makes a stream of facially absurd remarks that indicate a basic misunderstanding of statistics, public health research, the academic peer review process, and any number of other related issues; he and his commenters (including you) go out of your way to mis-read the article under consideration, claiming that it argues something that it does not; and then, after it's pointed out over and over again (try here for starters) that criticism of the Lancet study is almost universally ignorant, CY (and now you) derive renewed inspiration from a commenter named "Yancey Ward" and promtly begin howling about a pile of utterly irrelevant, phantasmic statistics about wounded Iraqis.
There's no possible way to enlighten you. It's quite dark in there, I'm afraid to say.
Posted by: d at October 13, 2006 05:37 PM (LHK5X)
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In other words, we have absolutely no right to be astounded and skeptical of a death rate that is significantly higher (10x-13x) than what has been reported over the last 4 years?
We have no right to question the accuracy of the report?
We have no right to question the political motives of the authors of the report?
We have no right to ask for more than a statistical extrapolation as proof of the veracity of the report?
We must bow down and pledge unquestioning obedience to all (the right) scientists for they are pure, infallable, and apolitical?
Well, I am performing my patriotic duty by dissenting with your point of view.
The link you gave said (paraphrased) "Pay no attention the the really big number - it doesn't matter. What matters is that we have scientifically proven, beyond a shadow of any doubt, that Iraq is extremely more worse off since the start of the war than they were before the war started."
Until corroborated by other sources, I will remain skeptical.
Posted by: SouthernRoots at October 13, 2006 07:27 PM (jHBWL)
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I'm still waiting for Al-Jazeera to show the pics of these 600,000 graves. I won't be holding my breath, becasue if AJ can't can't find'em, nobody can.
Posted by: Purple Avenger at October 13, 2006 07:32 PM (uLMbH)
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Another example of a professor sucking more people into some fantasy so he can get attention. Like a spoiled brat they don't care what kind of attention just so it's attention. This bunch is so full of bull a kindergarden student would smell it out.
Posted by: Scrapiron at October 13, 2006 08:40 PM (fEnUg)
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I have not read the study, and really do not intend to. But if more Iraqis died of US activity in a couple of years than Germans during four years of bombing not only factories but "population centers" (Berlin, Hamburg, Dresden and others) would not there be more than one study showing it?
Perhaps the statistical analysis of reported (to the studiers) deaths is good: can the same be said of their sampling methods? For example, asking interviewees to spread the word that they want to hear about deaths by violence, is it not likely that only people who had such deaths to report would then show up on succeeding days? Extrapolating from such a self-selected base would surely be akin to interviewing only people who claim success on the grapefruit diet and extrapolating that it must work...
Posted by: Tequila Jack at October 13, 2006 09:39 PM (oHkbn)
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Tequila Jack: I appreciate your willingness to publicly state your determination to know absolutely nothing about this study.
Scrapiron: You're absolutely right. I have no interest in this question except to draw people into some kind of "fantasy," and I am so desperate for attention that I can only receive it from people who denounce public health research they have publicly announced their refusal to read. Remarkable.
Southern Roots: I don't particularly give a squirt if you "question authority" or not. I'd remind you, though, that intelligent questions will always get you farther in life than the ones you knuckleheads are asking about the Lancet study.
Let me put this whole issue another way. Rather than focus on the estimated figure of 655,000 dead, I'd like someone -- why don't we start with you, Southern Roots? -- to explain to me why we should find it so implausible that the Iraqi mortality rate should rise from 5.5 per capita to 13.3 per capita over the course of three and a half years of warfare and insurgency, sectarian violence, infrastructural corrosion, massive unemployment, and degraded access to medical care throughout much of the country. The 655,000 figure you find so grotesquely overstated is actually derived from that spike in mortality.
I'm keen to hear your theories on this one.
Posted by: d at October 14, 2006 12:02 AM (LHK5X)
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d - We are having a very fine dance here. You are asked questions and you refuse to really answer them except to belittle and then fall back on the "read the report, believe the report, you no nothing of statistical analysis" theme.
In order to have an increase from 5.5 to 13.5, you are required to have over 600,000 more deaths than "normal" in a three year period.
There is no getting around that number. I find it very difficult to believe that it goes unnoticed and unreported.
If the death rate due to violence increases significantly, then there should be a corresponding increase in wounded. You have thus far refused to acknowledge this, let alone discuss it.
I also don't think anyone here has been arguing that there haven't been increase in civilian casualties due to the war, what we are disputing is the magnitude. Do you honestly believe that, if the casualties are as high as the Lancet report claims, that all those groups that detest and hate Bush (and America) are just sitting on their hands and not finding some way to use this information against Bush? How realistic is that?
When actions do not correspond the presumptions of statistical studies, I do get cynical about the theoretical side. And I don't "give a squirt" if that puts your panties in a bunch.
Posted by: SouthernRoots at October 14, 2006 01:07 AM (jHBWL)
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If the death rate due to violence increases significantly, then there should be a corresponding increase in wounded. You have thus far refused to acknowledge this, let alone discuss it.Alright, let's have a go with this.
No-one knows how many people have been wounded in Iraq over the last three years. You don't know, I don't know, The Lancet doesn't know, and George Bush doesn't know. There has never been a comprehensive study of this.
If the Lancet had tried to do the same survey of injuries as they did for deaths, the numbers would be practically useless. With a death, you're either living or dead, true or false, there's no middle ground. It's an easy thing to count because it doesn't rely on someone's interpretation. There's even official certificates. But for injuries, you'd need to send doctors out to assess every wound, which obviously isn't practical. Many of these people don't have access to medical care at all, so if you've got a few thousand doctors spare who are happy to be sent into dangerous territory, they really should be used to make people better, rather than collate statistics.
The comparison to war statistics is, as d says, a non sequitur. I think a lot of you are missing the point here: this number of 655,000 is not measuring war dead. That is, it is not measuring people who died in pitched battles. It is measuring excess deaths due to many causes, including sickness and accidents. It is measuring the number of extra dead people Iraq has as a result of the war, not the number of people killed directly in the war itself. Historically, it's perfectly normal for there to be a big difference between these two numbers.
As to how many people I think were wounded, I can only speculate. I might say that many of the dead bodies that have been turning up show signs of torture. That is, they weren't gunned down in a pitched battle, but abducted, tortured, and killed. If someone wants to do that to you, you either escape, or you're dead. There's no way to get injured. If that effect was statistically significant, it might produce a death/injury ratio higher than pitched battles would. But I should emphasise that that's just speculation: I have no idea what the injury rates should look like.
So we have no idea how many people we should expect to have been injured given 655,000 excess deaths, and we have no idea how many people were in fact injured. You are taking two numbers you know nothing about and concluding that one is less than the other. It's not very convincing.
Posted by: Mat at October 14, 2006 03:34 AM (2yVWt)
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To follow up on Mat's point in the last two paragraphs, I just typed "Iraq" into Google News. The top two headlines were:
Decapitated corpses found in Iraq
8 Females, 2 Teenagers Kidnapped In Iraq
I haven't done a scientific study that shows that the dead-to-wounded ration from decapitation and kidnap-murder is higher than the dead-to-wounded ratio of WWII-style combat, but it seems like a plausible hypothesis. (That is to say, freaking obvious.)
A couple of other points:
would not there be more than one study showing it?
Well, there was another study a couple of years ago. But these studies are very difficult to carry out -- they involve going around Iraq and interviewing families in large numbers, and Iraq is a dangerous place to do it. So no one else has actually attempted this kind of study, as far as I know.
I'm still waiting for Al-Jazeera to show the pics of these 600,000 graves.
There are some interesting articles lately about people fishing bodies out of the Tigris.
Posted by: Matt Weiner at October 14, 2006 08:47 AM (Mnkma)
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Rather than focus on the estimated figure of 655,000 dead...
Yes, lets ignore a patently absurd claim so we can bash others. Yea, that's the ticket.
Sorry jaggoff, the claim is so absurd its not even worth considering in serious company. Save this shit for you truther buddies who might listen.
You don't need to be a rocket scientist to figure this out, you just need to watch rabidly biased sources like Al-Jazzera to know its bogus.
Posted by: Purple Avenger at October 15, 2006 11:31 AM (uLMbH)
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Where did they grow you guys? I think I know what they used for fertilizer.
Posted by: Pinko Punko at October 16, 2006 01:33 PM (6F6lT)
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The staff of Iraq Body Count has now issued a press release accuses the Lancet of over-inflating the civilian body count in Iraq.
See the update to this post.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at October 16, 2006 03:25 PM (g5Nba)
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If there has been a excess of 650,000 deaths - caused by violence - then isn't it likely that there has been an excess of wounded?
Not particularly. Very few people who are kidnapped with the intent of being tortured to death and dumped as an object lesson to others wind up wounded instead of dead. Since deaths from violence would tend to involve victims rather than soldiers, I'd expect a far higher dead-to-wounded ratio.
In other words, we have absolutely no right to be astounded and skeptical of a death rate that is significantly higher (10x-13x) than what has been reported over the last 4 years?
From an interview with one of the authors (to which, strangely enough, this blog won't allow a link):
"We have gone and looked at every recent war we can find, and only in Bosnia did all governmental statistics add up to even one-fifth of the true death toll. And in Bosnia, the rate was 30 or 40 percent, with huge support for surveillance activities from the UN. So it’s normal in times of war that communications systems break down, systems for registering events break down.
And in Saddam’s last year of his reign, only about one-third of all deaths were captured at morgues and hospitals through the official government surveillance network. So, when things were good, if only a third of deaths were captured, what do you think it’s like now?"
You were saying?
Perhaps the statistical analysis of reported (to the studiers) deaths is good: can the same be said of their sampling methods? For example, asking interviewees to spread the word that they want to hear about deaths by violence, is it not likely that only people who had such deaths to report would then show up on succeeding days?
"And then, once we had picked that we were going to visit two or three neighborhoods in a certain governance or province, we would then make a list of all the villages and towns and cities, and again randomly pick one of those to visit, so that big places had a larger chance of being visited than smaller places. And then, finally, when we got down to the village level or to the section of a city, we would pick a house at random, visit it and the other 39 houses closest to it to grab a cluster of 40 houses."
You were saying?
Posted by: Phoenician in a time of Romans at October 16, 2006 04:42 PM (iYlrE)
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Summary
Iraqi Body Count Press Release
October 16, 2006
"In the light of such extreme and improbable implications, a rational alternative conclusion to be considered is that the authors have drawn conclusions from unrepresentative data. In addition, totals of the magnitude generated by this study are unnecessary to brand the invasion and occupation of Iraq a human and strategic tragedy."
http://tinyurl.com/yd5o2j
Posted by: Bluangel at October 16, 2006 08:43 PM (T1cju)
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In the light of such extreme and improbable implications, a rational alternative conclusion to be considered is that the authors have drawn conclusions from unrepresentative data.
Ooops - Appeal to Consequences of a Belief.
One notices that the IBC hasn't said anything about the statistical basis of the study, of which all informed experts have said is fairly robust. One also notes that the authors have addressed some of the points made, noting, for example:
"We have gone and looked at every recent war we can find, and only in Bosnia did all governmental statistics add up to even one-fifth of the true death toll. And in Bosnia, the rate was 30 or 40 percent, with huge support for surveillance activities from the UN. So it’s normal in times of war that communications systems break down, systems for registering events break down."
"And in Saddam’s last year of his reign, only about one-third of all deaths were captured at morgues and hospitals through the official government surveillance network. So, when things were good, if only a third of deaths were captured, what do you think it’s like now?"
So the IBC criticism is not only off focus, it is based on false assumptions.
Try again.
Posted by: Phoenician in a time of Romans at October 16, 2006 11:06 PM (iYlrE)
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of which all informed experts have said is fairly robust.
Where have we heard the "all experts concur" line before?
Donald Berry, chairman of biostatistics at M. D. Anderson Cancer Center in Houston, was even more troubled by the study, which he said had “a tone of accuracy that’s just inappropriate.”
http://medpundit.blogspot.com/2006/10/lancet-strikes-again-i-admit-this.html
According to official reports , over 180,000 internally displaced refugees were reported just between the months of February and June of 2006. Undoubtedly those not registering pushes the number much higher. As I pointed out below, the survey methodology means that these displaced refugees had very little chance of being surveyed. But in addition to that, their migration is sure to skew the analysis of the data.
The authors acknowledge as much in their paper:
"The population data used for cluster selection were at least 2 years old, and if populations subsequently migrated from areas of high mortality to those with low mortality, the sample might have over-represented the high-mortality
areas."
http://notropis.blogspot.com/
"We have gone and looked at every recent war we can find, and only in Bosnia did all governmental statistics add up to even one-fifth of the true death toll. And in Bosnia, the rate was 30 or 40 percent, with huge support for surveillance activities from the UN. So it’s normal in times of war that communications systems break down, systems for registering events break down."
Even with such terrible registration rates for death certificates, isn't it just amazing how the Lancet group was able to get well over 80% of the households to produce a death certificate? This was a key element in their validation of interprolating the numbers out to >650,000.
Seems bogus to me.
Posted by: SouthernRoots at October 16, 2006 11:48 PM (jHBWL)
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To compare deaths-to-wounds ratios in combat with what's going on in Iraq is just pig-ignorant.
Then, to presume at least WWII-quality medical care is to ignore the fact that hospitals currently are serving as *bases* for some of the militias, so a lot of wounded probably aren't even seeking medical help.
Beyond that, sure, it's possible the Lancet study is flawed. But nothing to date proves it, and disinterested public-health professionals find the survey techniques generally unassailable.
As for IraqBodyCount, anyone who knows anything about statistics has known for some time that its own methodology was overwhelmingly likely to have been understating fatalities by anywhere from several multiples to an order of magnitude.
But don't let, you know, facts get in the way of a good story.
Posted by: Lex at October 17, 2006 02:51 PM (FcWi1)
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Where are the death certificates? If they could get them for 501 and of the 546 people they said were killed because of the war, where are the rest?
The methodology is sloppy, they virtually ignore rural areas, and the sample groups are too small and interrelated. Note how few real professionals are prepared to risk their reputations backing this absurd claim. It is like saying the earth is flat, it is ridiculous on its face.
It is political and it shows a cyncial disregard for the suffering of the Iraqi people. They are just cannon fodder for the people who did this report.
I wonder what the numbers would have been had they done a report like this when Saddam was around and used as a sample the Kurds and Shia? There were people in the Kurdish north whose entire villages were destroyed. I wonder how many millions they could have claimed as dead using this methodology? But then again, Saddam would not even have let them talk to people.
Posted by: terrye at October 18, 2006 06:30 AM (4XoCB)
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The Wall Street Journal says that the Lancet is a bogus report.
Specifically that the selection of only 47 clusters to represent 26 million people was bogus.
Also that no demographics were asked of the interviewees so that the samples could be compared with a census or other information.
Posted by: SouthernRoots at October 18, 2006 09:47 AM (jHBWL)
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According to the Lancet’s disputed study, 601,027 people—al Qaeda terrorists, insurgents, Iraqi soldiers, police, and true civilians—have been killed violently ("the most common cause being gunfire," says the summary) since the 2003 invasion of Iraq.
We also know that for every combat-related death, there are usually a far greater number of casualties.
"Violent" death and "combat-related death" are not synonyms.
A large number of targeted murders would yield a large number of bodies, and few wounded.
(By "targeted murder", I mean a murder where the murderer has selected a victim, and decided to kill the victim, attacked, and did not stop until certain that the victim was dead.)
However, if you can prove that there is damn good injury tracking in Iraq - a statement that we have no evidence for - and can show that nowhere near that level of injury has occurred, you might well have found a flaw in the report.
Uh, do you have any proof that the injury tracking in Iraq is so good that it calls the study results into question?
I mean, you haven't presented any; you've just insisted that we surely would have known if there were that many injuries. You're saying that one should trust an unknown system of tracking and reporting injuries, and use that trust to ignore solid research with a sound methodology.
It doesn't sound very sensible to me. My figuring is, if the study is done soundly (and it was), we should be digging to find out if it's true, not looking for self-serving reasons to declare that it's false.
Posted by: Longhairedweirdo at October 18, 2006 02:19 PM (MTypB)
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