Confederate Yankee
November 27, 2006
Is Patriotism Dead?
To listen to John Kerry or Charles Rangel, you would think so. These Democrat veterans—who speak for so many other Democrats, veteran and not—seem to think military service is something that an American citizen engages in only as a last resort measure. Kerry's infamous pre-election "stuck in Iraq" comment (for which he has un-apologized), along with Rangel's new pronouncement that people will only join the military if they don’t have "an option of having a decent career," reflect a liberal mindset that views voluntary military service as something only for those who are nearly destitute, and who have few other options.
It seems to them and many other liberals that joining the military is a last chance option that is a step or two above going homeless, and little more.
Of course, this flies in the face of the facts that those who join the military tend to be
more suburban, educated and affluent than their contemporaries. But neither Charlie nor John nor the rest of their liberal "truther" movement are dissuaded by anything as inconsequential as facts.
Duty. Honor. Country.
Honor. Courage. Commitment.
Upon these and similar principles the U.S. Military Academy at West Point, NY and the U.S. Naval Academy at Annapolis, MD were founded, as were their fellow service academies for the U.S. Air Force and Coast Guard. Men and women seeking to develop these character traits often seek to go to service academies or walk into military local recruiting offices.
Almost all (98%) voluntary enlistees are high school graduates. 92% of officers have bachelor's degrees, and many have advanced degrees. Do liberals honestly think these people joined the military because they didn’t have "an option of having a decent career" otherwise?
Joining the military because of a feeling of patriotism—a love of one’s country and willingness to sacrifice for it—seems to be an increasingly remote concept for those on the left. No, they’d rather do what they do best, and attempt to define those who would serve as another stupid, oppressed childish minority that need to be saved from themselves.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
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Posted by: Frederick at November 27, 2006 01:51 PM (jSBbA)
2
I have some basic questions, please pardon my inability to articulate the leftist positions.
1)They support the troops, but don't support the war;
2)They believe the troops are ignorant, mouth-breathers...who "didn't study hard and get good grades", otherwise...they wouldn't have wound up in Iraq (in a actual place where "soldiering" is being done).
3)They believe that they have no chance at a "good" career...otherwise they would never have joined the military.
4)The poor and oppressed people of color are "doing the fighting" for all of us.
5)We should believe them...because Kerry and Murtha tell us so...
Please reconcile 1-4....with #5?????
Posted by: cfbleachers at November 27, 2006 02:39 PM (V56h2)
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cfbleachers,
Here I'll help you:
1. I know, it's as confusing as claiming Iraq was a central front in The War Against Terror, before we turned it into a front in said war.
2. Wrong. But I'm starting to believe that people who do believe that the Left believes this, "are ignorant, mouth-breathers...who 'didn't study hard and get good grades'."
3. I don't know where you got that one from. It used to be that you'd get good training for a career by joining the military, but because they are so far behind in technology now 'a days (especially in communications and networking, AKO is a prime example), it's a wash.
4. I don't recall anyone specifically saying that.
5. Ah, ...
Posted by: Frederick at November 27, 2006 02:58 PM (jSBbA)
4
I beg to differ.
Just another moonbat conspiracy theorist...
Posted by: Purple Avenger at November 27, 2006 03:06 PM (1WIsD)
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And your words, Purple Avenger, have the weight of...oh, ya, they don't have any weight. Shouldn't you be off googling Ahmadinejad?
Posted by: Frederick at November 27, 2006 03:34 PM (jSBbA)
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"Here I'll help you:"
Thanks, anything that can illuminate the reasons why leftist politicians want to trash our troops would be helpful.
"1. I know, it's as confusing as claiming Iraq was a central front in The War Against Terror, before we turned it into a front in said war."
Forgive me, Frederick...but how does this address the issue?
Secondly, ...are you grieving at the loss of Saddam...or were you simply heavily invested in woodchipper stocks? I mean, I suppose the rape rooms were probably something you wouldn't want to eliminate, but...where is the anguish stemming from?
My take on Iraq is that upon driving Al Qaeda from Afghanistan...they would look for someplace to reset their base. You can't keep them on the run, if they are being state-protected all over again.
Iraq had USED weapons of mass destruction, had ALLIED with terrorists and had intentionally lobbed missiles at a non-combatant. They were firing at our fly-by's. They had INTENTIONS of building nuclear weapons and had ANNOUNCED that they were in favor of eradicating Israel and attacking the US. Again...you are sad to see Saddam go...for what reason?
We can fight the terrorists over there, while keeping them on the run...or fight them here AFTER they have killed more of my countrymen.
Perhaps you didn't have any friends in the World Trade Center who died on 9-11. I did.
"2. Wrong. But I'm starting to believe that people who do believe that the Left believes this, "are ignorant, mouth-breathers...who 'didn't study hard and get good grades'."
I'd be happy to match my resume' against yours...if that's where you are headed. Should we slam them up on the table, Frederick? I think you might want to shirk from this...but you never know.
And again...John Kerry and now Rangel have blurted out what I have heard over and over from the smug and pedantic leftists. The troops are stupid. Hell, Ted Rall ROOTS for their deaths.
Your comrades at Berkeley scoff at them all the time. As do the Kos Kidz. Do you wish for me to avalanche you with examples...or are you willing to concede?
"3. I don't know where you got that one from. It used to be that you'd get good training for a career by joining the military, but because they are so far behind in technology now 'a days (especially in communications and networking, AKO is a prime example), it's a wash."
You don't know where I got that from. Is this a reading problem, a language problem or a comprehension problem, Frederick? Rangel said as much...we are talking about Rangel's statement...try to keep up, Frederick.
4. I don't recall anyone specifically saying that.
"I don't recall...."..."SPECIFICALLY saying that".
As an attorney who has cross-examined thousands of witnesses, Frederick...those two phrases are in the dissembler's Hall of fame.
"5. Ah, ..."
Should I interpret this as sudden revelation, surrender in utter futility, or the climax of your mental masturbation?
Posted by: cfbleachers at November 27, 2006 07:11 PM (V56h2)
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cfbleachers,
Let me be very clear. The Left does not hate the military, or think people who join the military are stupid. If your proof of this stereotype or any other of the others you mentioned revolve around Kerry's remarks earlier this month, or Rangel's Draft Bill, then you are on very poor footing.
...and #5 was close to a, "surrender in utter futility." That being trying to explain anything to the likes of you.
Posted by: Frederick at November 27, 2006 08:07 PM (jSBbA)
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Frederick,
What about the recent comments by Rangel that claim those who join the military only do so because they don't have options?
That does not seem very supportive of the military. It discounts the patriotism that many in the military have, and the fact that they are turning down other opportunities so that they can serve.
Posted by: FrankDC at November 27, 2006 09:06 PM (XHdMl)
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I don't agree with the way Rangel phrased things in the interview with Wallace. He should have been more clear.
But so should CY.
This is how he put it:
"...along with Rangel's new pronouncement that people will only join the military if they don’t have 'an option of having a decent career...'"
This is the direct quote from Hot Air:
If a young fella has an option of having a decent career or joining the army to fight in Iraq, you can bet your life that he would not be in Iraq.
Big difference. If I were to take Cy's at face value I would be pissed at the Congressman. If you look at the full quote from Rangel and the faulty logic that Allahpundit follows it up with, not so much.
Allahpundit suggests, "let the morality of every war be judged by the number of patriots willing to volunteer for it. “Bad” wars will attract few enlistees and end quickly in defeat as we run out of troops; “good” wars, just the opposite. With the Army missing its recruitment target by the widest margin since 1979, in 2005, I think Allahpundit may just get his wish.
Posted by: Frederick at November 27, 2006 10:23 PM (jSBbA)
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Meh. USA Today lied.
http://www.defenselink.mil/releases/2005/nr20051212-5225.html
Posted by: SicSemperTyrannus at November 28, 2006 08:12 AM (8kQAc)
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SicSemperTyrannus,
Just how are the results for one month suposed to refute figure for the whole year?
After falling 6,000 short of its 74,000 goal for FY2005, the Army raised the bar to 80,000 for FY2006. They began the fiscal year last Oct. 1 with only 12% of that goal "banked" in the delayed enlistment program, compared to 25% a year earlier. Further, Congress didn't enact needed new bonus incentives until January, more than three months into the fiscal year. So many - including MOAA - had doubts whether the new goal was attainable.
...
But the Army met the challenge by adding over 1,300 recruiters since 2005 and expanding various criteria to widen the prospect pool. So we congratulate the Army and the other services, all of whom met or exceeded their active duty recruiting goals.
Nevertheless, other numbers offer reasons for legitimate concerns for FY2007 and beyond
Get your facts striaght.
Posted by: Frederick at November 28, 2006 08:42 AM (dbo1X)
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Frederick
When has the left EVER said that we were fighting a "good" war. They've opposed America every step of the way.
You don't seem very well informed, except in reciting each leftist groupthink mantra, like a programmed stepford child.
Do you ever think for yourself on ANY issues...or do you simply regurgitate leftist talking points?
Everyone who doesn't agree with you is a "rightwing" "dumb", "homophobic", "racist",
"greedy" , ...you don't have a clue how to think for yourself any longer, do you? I find that oh, so sad. But you are quite typical of the lemmings created by leftist propaganda.
Truly sad.
Posted by: cfbleachers at November 28, 2006 12:05 PM (V56h2)
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Wrong again cfbleachers,
The whole world, left, right, and otherwise, was united behind the U.S. after 911...you can't have that short of an attention span to have forgotten all the "Lefty" votes towards an autherized use of force.
I'm very well informed, that why when I saw that 'SicSemperTyrannus' was trying to pull that typical Righty bull$h!t saying, "USA Today lied," I called him on it and got the source to back my claim up.
...and when did I call anyone here in this thread dumb, homophobic, or any of the other words you put in my mouth? That's pretty much a consession by you...attributing things to me that I didn't say as a last ditch effort to win an argument. That tactic is pre Nov. 6th thinking.
Posted by: Frederick at November 28, 2006 03:51 PM (dbo1X)
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November 24, 2006
Thanksgiving "Humor"
Allowing this bile to be published on her site tells me a bit about the character of Arianna Huffington.
To be fair, though, I'm fairly sure she'd allow the same comments to be uttered about Joe Lieberman.
That's bipartisanship.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
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1
Would it be bile if someone said that about Murtha?
No, what would happen is you would sanctimoniously say, "It's an ugly truth, but Murtha's demise would be a blessing for the troops. It needed to be said."
How's your perfect war coming along?
http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/11/22/iraq.main/index.html
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20061124/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq
Are you satisfied with our progress?
Posted by: Earl at November 24, 2006 12:54 PM (Y9zdM)
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Would it be bile if someone said that about Murtha?
Who prayed for Murtha's death? I just want him out of congress, not dead.
Posted by: Purple Avenger at November 24, 2006 01:09 PM (wfN0Q)
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Earl ....
Once again, you even outdo the lunacy you have exhibited in past writings. Too much turkey yesterday and all the fatty gravies to clog the arteries and prevent the free flow of blood and oxygen to the brain?
No one I know - surely not CY - has EVER as much as implied that Murtha or anyone else from your far-left campgrounds should be dead just because of political differences.
Are you familiar with psychological projection? It appears that you actually are in favor of what the loon wrote at Huff and Puff ....
The loons from the Left are so predictable ...
Posted by: Retired Spy at November 24, 2006 02:23 PM (Xw2ki)
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Avenger and Spy, two of my favorites! How's the war going boys?
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15873863/
Maybe next week we'll turn the corner, no?
It's cute when you take the high road like that, but you know perfectly well neither of you would make a peep if Malkin or Instapundit or CY or Captain Ed or whoever made a Thanksgiving prayer with a quasi-humorous wish that Murtha died.
Posted by: Earl at November 24, 2006 07:28 PM (yXuTl)
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Earl, you are without a doubt one of the most disgusting trolls that I've ever had the misfortune of witnessing, on here, or any other site.
You actually gloat over the deaths of civilians. Can you even fathom how broken you are to gloat that such horrors have been visited upon another human being? I cannot imagine the inner reserves of spite and abject hatred you harbor in your soul, and I am so thankful that I could never be anything like you.
None of the bloggers you mentioned would wish death on Murtha, or any other Democrat. We simply don't think that that, Earl, and perhaps it shouldn't surprise me that you can't see that.
How sad...
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at November 24, 2006 07:49 PM (HcgFD)
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Oh how awful for the Left - and even more awful for the rest of us. I used to sometimes go look in on the Leftards, but it's just too horrible now. I would no more go to the Huffington Compost again than I would convert to Islam.
Keep writing, Yank, in times like these decent voices are more important than ever.
Kol Tuv
6PO
Posted by: 6PointsOut at November 24, 2006 07:57 PM (Gzg6J)
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Earl is hopelessly lost in the fever swamps.
Posted by: Purple Avenger at November 24, 2006 08:32 PM (wfN0Q)
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I'm not a fan of this kind of rhetoric, but let's get the record straight. Coulter did indeed say that Murtha should be killed, and she suggested that our troops should do it.
Back in June, during an interview on the "Right Wing News" site, Coulter described Murtha as "the reason soldiers invented 'fragging.'"
That's pretty straightforward.
This crap spews from both sides. It's disingenuous to pretend it doesn't.
Posted by: Doc Washboard at November 24, 2006 09:25 PM (20d7j)
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But Doc,
How bout we have a pissing match on this. You can make one quote from June was it? I bet I can find 10 since then from the left.
But it would be just that - a pissing match. I think CY's point about Earl gloating over civilian deaths is even more poignant. Simply because it is true.
Earl - do you live in the US or any of the 40 countries associated with our coalition? If so - it is your war too - little boy. Sad, sad, little boy. Time to up the meds again Earl....
Posted by: Specter at November 24, 2006 10:27 PM (ybfXM)
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Crusty,
Rather than rely on CNN for all your news about Iraq (kinda like depending on LA Times for the news about the airstrike that wasn't, right?) try looking around a little. Here is a good site.
Posted by: Specter at November 24, 2006 10:33 PM (ybfXM)
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Oh - Doc - BTW - Not a whole lot of people are fans of Coulter either. I am sure not. She is way to brash and extreme-right. But you knew that. Arianna is the same - but far left.
Don't worry though - I'm sure the real story will come out - in 24-business hours. LOL
Posted by: Specter at November 24, 2006 10:35 PM (ybfXM)
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CY: "You actually gloat over the deaths of civilians." The delusional paranoia so prevalent in Clown World is doing the talking here. You all wanted this war, remember? Not me. I wish the Iraqis well, but I didn't feel responsible for Saddam. I do feel responsible for thousands of civilian deaths. You all felt that this would be a cakewalk, and that we'd be greeted as liberators, and that we would uncover WMD. I felt this was going to be a disaster, and I intend to remind you of this every time the civil war in Iraq flares up.
Specter: I never look at CNN, just follow links there. I guess they just made that up, huh? That darn MSM!
That you should recommend the Centcom site to me is amusing. I guess the military is the most unbiased news resource on the war out there. Now why didn't I think of that? DO NOT take this as anti-military. My point is just that it's naive to expect unbiased war news from the military.
The jig's up, boys. You Clown World denizens can keep blaming Clinton and Kerry, but here on planet earth W's going to get his comeuppance. He's never learned a trade, accomplished a thing, or taken responsibility for anything in his life, so I'm going to enjoy this one to the hilt.
Posted by: Earl at November 25, 2006 12:34 AM (yXuTl)
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So, if HuffPo had to run on someones maiden name and without any divorce dollars...would it still be there?
The cleverness of spending other people's money with someone elses name is profound.
Posted by: George Dixon at November 25, 2006 08:46 AM (COB3g)
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He's never learned a trade
Can you fly a jet fighter Earl? There's a certain amount of skill involved in that I've been told. Looks complicated and dangerous...more so than flinging feces from a keyboard I would suspect.
Posted by: Purple Avenger at November 25, 2006 12:50 PM (1WIsD)
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Purple - oh baby. Agreed, he got great reviews as a fighter pilot at first, no doubt about it. What you're leaving out is that after the US spent a million on his training, something happened, we don't know what. He skipped a physical, which fighter pilots don't do, got grounded, and never flew again. He transferred to mail detail in Alabama, where no one saw him, and left that early to go the Harvard Business School. So the Air National Guard is yet another story of W failing. That's the story of his life. He's everything I don't like about the Republican party, and none of the good things about it: personal initiative, responsibility and so on. Why you guys wanted him I'll never understand.
Posted by: Earl at November 25, 2006 01:01 PM (yXuTl)
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Earl has some serious BDS to deal with. I suppose a Hamburger University grad like Earl would be jealous of W's Harvard MBA. Flip those burgers Earl! Whateve one thinks of Anne Coulter, she earned her money. Arriana is a cheesey golddigger who married hers. Is Earl a girl? Earl is certainly a squirrel.
Posted by: Mark at November 25, 2006 02:20 PM (isTfo)
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Mark -- your feeble rebuttal speaks volumes my friend. When you don't have any facts, find something that rhymes with the poster's name.
CY'ers in general --
I wonder who said this? Probably some leftist pinko:
"The time for more U.S. troops in Iraq has passed. We do not have more troops to send and, even if we did, they would not bring a resolution to Iraq. Militaries are built to fight and win wars, not bind together failing nations. We are once again learning a very hard lesson in foreign affairs: America cannot impose a democracy on any nation — regardless of our noble purpose.
"We have misunderstood, misread, misplanned and mismanaged our honorable intentions in Iraq with an arrogant self-delusion reminiscent of Vietnam. Honorable intentions are not policies and plans. Iraq belongs to the 25 million Iraqis who live there…. The United States must begin planning for a phased troop withdrawal from Iraq.
Posted by: Earl at November 25, 2006 02:37 PM (yXuTl)
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You didn't answer my question Earl. What are you avoiding? Can you fly a fighter or not?
Posted by: Purple Avenger at November 25, 2006 04:37 PM (1WIsD)
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What an idiot you are, Jack Off Hoyt. Where did you come up with that accusation about CY or anyone else here in favor of slavery?
Did that come up with the rest of the barf you spewed after eating too much turkey and gravy?
Posted by: Retired Spy at November 25, 2006 06:11 PM (Xw2ki)
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Purple -- do you have any idea how much of a clown you are? "You can't fly a fighter jet? Huh? Can you? Huh?" Whether I can fly a jet proves nothing about Bush. I said he got good reviews at first, and that's true. It's also true that he stopped for reasons we aren't privy to and slinked off, just like in the oil business. I don't call that learning a trade, but maybe there in Clown World it qualifies. It almost seems mean to debate with you, you're such a halfwit.
Posted by: Earl at November 25, 2006 06:56 PM (yXuTl)
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Purple Avenger: The runway at Mickey D's is too short for Earl to land. Oh, and don't tell him Bush was senior management, or CEO, in several oil companies.
Posted by: Mark at November 25, 2006 07:51 PM (isTfo)
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Whether I can fly a jet proves nothing about Bush.
I think it would prove you had the "moral authority" to comment if you did. Since you're apparently not a pilot, you would seem unqualified to comment on whatever it takes to become one.
Posted by: Purple Avenger at November 25, 2006 08:34 PM (1WIsD)
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CY:
I guess I missed something. I read over Earl's posts, but I didn't see any gloating over civilian deaths. Did that happen in some other thread?
Posted by: Doc Washboard at November 25, 2006 09:42 PM (QA0cI)
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Earl has to become a real man before he could ever become a pilot as good as Bush, or a business executive or a governor or a President of the United States.
Earl is a failure and projects that failure on others to make himself feel good about himself. In that, too, he has failed miserably.
Posted by: Retired Spy at November 25, 2006 10:46 PM (Xw2ki)
25
To all my brothers and sisters on the right and you fine folks in the middle, why would we want Mr. Murtha dead??? He is so very valuable out there representing the loud mouth left. His impeccable past (joke), his intelligent dribble, his betrayal of our beloved Marine Corp by standing for CUT AND RUN, I bet he will vote yes for a draft even though the originator will vote against his own bill just like before. These types are buffoons to be laughed at, so please don't let them off the hook. Now they need a plan and have govern or be pushed back into the snake hole of history for twelve more years.
Posted by: VerbalVigilante at November 25, 2006 11:23 PM (0Co69)
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Earl... he has an MBA.. He actually flew those planes and was on the list to go to Nam and was not called....His grades at Yale were better than The D student he opposed in 'O4... Oh yeah.. he was also never shot in the tail with a grain of rice from his own ill thrown hand grenade... shall we go on.. time out ... our opponent needs a peanut butter and jelly sandwich to keep his verbal skills up so he won't blow any more jokes and insult the troops whose admiration for the President proves his worth to all who understand what is important.
Posted by: VerbalVigilante at November 25, 2006 11:36 PM (0Co69)
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Retired Spy: "Earl has to become a real man before he could ever become a pilot as good as Bush, or a business executive or a governor or a President of the United States."
So in Clown World, a good pilot can slink off from a Guard obligation and a good business executive can trash two companies. Got it.
His record in politics is consistent with everything else in his life, he's no damn good at much of anything. He wouldn't have gotten into the Guard, or HBS, or executive of two companies or politics were it not for his name. He's utterly mediocre.
"Earl is a failure and projects that failure on others to make himself feel good about himself. In that, too, he has failed miserably."
Clearly you are very wise to know these things. Tell me, when will we turn the corner in Iraq? Next week? Next month? Or wait, you guys haven't dragged out this old chestnut in awhile -- maybe the war is going really, really well, only those rascals in the MSM won't report the good things. Is that it?
Posted by: Earl at November 26, 2006 02:15 AM (yXuTl)
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Doc Washboard: "I read over Earl's posts, but I didn't see any gloating over civilian deaths. Did that happen in some other thread?"
I've never gloated about the death of Iraqis, here or anywhere else.
Posted by: Earl at November 26, 2006 02:26 AM (yXuTl)
29
Purple -- yes or no, does taking a million taxpayer dollars to train as a pilot and then skipping a physical and getting grounded for, what, half your time make you a successful Guard pilot? Simply paying taxes qualifies me to answer that question.
It's touching how the Clown Worlders try to defend W. His grades were better than Kerry's! How about that? You're not a pilot so you're not qualified to judge him! How about that? He was an executive! How about that?
He was a drunk for decades! How about that? He used cocaine and got arrested! How about that? He says he's born again, but he's too good to go to church! How about that? He was a cheerleader in college! How about that?
Clown World would never, ever, ever shut up about it if a Dem candidate didn't go to church. W's just a little bit better than us though, so he doesn't need to. Clinton 'didn't inhale', and we heard about that over and over and over, but W's cocaine was before he was reborn, so we're not even allowed to find out what is the deal.
Clown World doesn't want the most qualified man for the job, Clown World wants some kind of king. That's all it comes down to with W -- his 'moral compass'. That may float your boat in Clown World, but here on earth, accomplishments matter. It's a shame that the Repubs have thrown down this mantle. It was an important contribution to our society. The same goes for fiscal prudence. It's shocking how sheerly wrong Clown World has been about everything for six long years.
But the jig's up now boys. Leahy, Waxman, Reed, Pelosi, and others are going to get some accountability. The Boy King has owned up once already when he fired Rumsfeld, but that's just the beginning.
Posted by: Earl at November 26, 2006 02:41 AM (yXuTl)
30
He was a drunk for decades!...
*cough* Ted Kennedy *cough*
Posted by: Purple Avenger at November 26, 2006 03:42 AM (1WIsD)
31
Notice how Earl is becoming more and more desperate and more and more defensive with the passage of each day?
Yup! Sign of the times. He has no workable solutions for anything. He can only cry and whine and repeat that idiotic expression, "the jig is up." Why not some solutions? That requires intellect and talent and imagination and vision.
On the subject of drunkenness, it appears that Earl remains intoxicated on some drunken binge of his own narcissistic personality disorder that just keeps him marginally above the rim of the tank.
I wonder how soon this Troll of Trolls will sink into oblivion, drowning in the empty fluids of his own self-delusional perceptions of self.
Posted by: Retired Spy at November 26, 2006 08:31 AM (Xw2ki)
32
Furthermore, Earl's narcissism is feeding itself as people actually waste their time communicating with this nut. He is actually believing his own perceptions of his importance - despite daily reminders of his repeated failures in life's journey.
It's a defense mechanism. It works for him as long as he continues to believe his own lies to himself, ignoring reality.
Posted by: Retired Spy at November 26, 2006 08:38 AM (Xw2ki)
33
I think one of the problems here is one of focus. Kerry's name comes up here again and again--VerbalVigilante even calls him "our opponent"--but the fact of the matter is that Kerry isn't anyone's opponent. He's not running for anything. He lost in '04, and here we are a few weeks away from '07. It's time to move on--the Right seems to be fighting the last war. Kerry's not the president of the United States.
Ted Kennedy may very well be a lifelong drunk--I don't know--but he isn't the president.
I may be wrong, but I think that Earl is writing about the character and decisions of the sitting POTUS. In that context, Kerry and Kennedy aren't even worth mentioning.
I don't know Earl at all--he might be a vile monster or a beatific saint--but he's not currently the commander-in-chief of the armed forces. His abilities and his past are not the issue here, and neither are the abilities or past of the other people who post here.
It might be more productive if we were all to keep the focus on the guy who actually has his finger on The Button right now.
Posted by: Doc Washboard at November 26, 2006 09:55 AM (X3KVz)
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OK, Washboard ... How about this?
The original subject was the sick humor expressed by a loser in the pages of the Huffington Post, longing for Vice President Richard Cheney to have a fatal heart attack.
What does that have to do with all the nonsense and vile anti-EVERYONE hatred expressed by Earl?
Stay on task. The fact that Bush has his finger on The Button has nothing at all to do with the HuffPo article.
Posted by: Retired Spy at November 26, 2006 11:20 AM (Xw2ki)
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I guess that you've underscored my point, Retired Spy. Why do you care what Earl says? How does his opinion affect the national debate? Does his wanting Cheney to keel over actually make Cheney keel over?
In short, is Earl worth bothering with?
(No offense intended, Earl, of course.)
Posted by: Doc Washboard at November 26, 2006 11:57 AM (X3KVz)
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So why do YOU also buy into this nonsense? Are you as filled with a mental vacuum as Earl?
Why do you tell us we should keep focus on the guy whose finger is on The Button? The original subject was not Bush at all.
Just trying to get out all that hate at every opportunity? Intellectual bankruptcy? Loss of FOCUS?
Do you or Earl or anyone pointing the accusatory fingers have actual solutions? Then tell the newly anointed Democrat saviors in the House and Senate. They need some new ideas. Haven't seen any there yet - just some in-fighting.
Posted by: Retired Spy at November 26, 2006 12:13 PM (Xw2ki)
37
I'm looking back over what I've written, and I'm not finding any examples of hate that I've posted. It'd be great if you could point them out to me so I can tone down my rhetoric.
Also: I'm not sure what nonsense you think it is I'm buying into.
I thought that the president was more important to the direction of the nation than Earl. Again, maybe I'm wrong.
Posted by: Doc Washboard at November 26, 2006 12:19 PM (X3KVz)
38
Purple --
"He was a drunk for decades!...
*cough* Ted Kennedy *cough*"
My word you are dense. What is that supposed to prove? Kennedy is/was a drunk, therefore it's OK that Bush was too? Sheesh.
Posted by: Earl at November 26, 2006 01:24 PM (yXuTl)
39
Retired Spy --
"Notice how Earl is becoming more and more desperate and more and more defensive with the passage of each day? Yup! Sign of the times."
Oh that's rich. You're one of the elite 1% who thinks that Iraq is improving, and I'm fighting reality.
Here are those rascals at the MSM making things up again:
Will we turn the corner next month, Spy? Is the next six months the crucial period? Or is the jig up?
"He has no workable solutions for anything. He can only cry and whine and repeat that idiotic expression, 'the jig is up.' Why not some solutions? That requires intellect and talent and imagination and vision."
I wish I had a solution. The choices I see are phased withdrawal on our terms, or getting kicked out.
What's your solution? Democracy at the barrel of a gun? Loser.
"On the subject of drunkenness, it appears that Earl remains intoxicated on some drunken binge of his own narcissistic personality disorder that just keeps him marginally above the rim of the tank."
It's cute when you try to be literary. I like your endless, bizarre theories to explain how anyone could disagree with your perfect, necessary war.
"I wonder how soon this Troll of Trolls will sink into oblivion, drowning in the empty fluids of his own self-delusional perceptions of self."
More toney literary conceits! Double A++! This alone is worth sticking around for. Also I seem never to tire of rubbing your face in your incompetent president and disastrous war. It's cool too to watch your reaction to the GOP becoming the white Southerner's party. How do you like that, by the way?
Posted by: Earl at November 26, 2006 01:37 PM (yXuTl)
40
therefore it's OK that Bush was too?
Operative word: "WAS".
Posted by: Purple Avenger at November 26, 2006 01:37 PM (1WIsD)
41
Purple --
Ah, so this is your point:
"What's his accomplishment? That he's no longer an obnoxious drunk?"
--Ronald Reagan Jr.
Got it.
Posted by: Earl at November 26, 2006 01:40 PM (yXuTl)
42
Whoops, lost my 'MSM rascals' link above in my post to Retired Spy. Here it is.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/newspaper/0,,176-2472223,00.html
Posted by: Earl at November 26, 2006 01:45 PM (yXuTl)
43
You, Washboard, seem to be as clueless as Earl. Earl has no importance at all. The president has importance, but his position in world politics has nothing, whatsoever, to do with a Cheney heart attack being wished upon him by a HuffPo hack journalist.
Pay attention, now ... I'll even bold the question so you don't miss it this time.
Do you or Earl or anyone pointing the accusatory fingers have actual solutions? Then tell the newly anointed Democrat saviors in the House and Senate. They need some new ideas. Haven't seen any there yet - just some in-fighting.
As for the loonie one's references to drunkenness, Kennedy is now, and has been for decades, a DRUNK and a womanizer. George W. Bush gave up booze decades ago - long before taking on the responsibilities as Governor of Texas and President of the United States. His Air National Guard duty and leftie rumors surrounding his alleged AWOL status then also have nothing to do with what his responsibilities are now.
So ... once again ... where are YOUR solutions?????
Posted by: Retired Spy at November 26, 2006 01:50 PM (Xw2ki)
44
What, Earl? No intellectually vacuous comebacks?
Go back to your meds and therapy. You are on the cutting edge of oblivion.
Posted by: Retired Spy at November 26, 2006 01:56 PM (Xw2ki)
45
I have more important things to accomplish this afternoon. Unlike the little Trolls from the left, I have a real life.
Go ahead and whine ad nauseam. It's accomplished nothing so far, and it is doubtful it ever will.
Posted by: Retired Spy at November 26, 2006 02:00 PM (Xw2ki)
46
Well, Retired Spy, I don't have solutions to this problem, and I never said I did. Note that I'm not the commander-in-chief; it's not my job to come up with solutions.
Not being able to come up with a solution doesn't preclude being able to see that a problem exists. You don't have to be able to drive to see that the car you're in is about to go off a cliff; you just have to have your eyes open. Just because one is not a doctor doesn't mean that one can't see that a friend is sick.
I understand that you're upset that this shmoe on the Huffington Post has wished Cheney ill. I understand that you want to spend a lot of time writing about it and slapfighting Earl. Don't we have bigger fish to fry, though? In the end, who really cares about this guy? Is obsessing about this guy going to make the world a better place? I'm guessing not.
Let's not sweat the inconsequential stuff. I say the car's going off the cliff; I'm guessing you say it isn't. I see a country full of death and destruction that we brought about by our invasion, and you see something else.
Tell me about what you see. Why do you think that our visions are so divergent? Is Bush really the guy we want at the wheel right now?
Posted by: Doc Washboard at November 26, 2006 02:06 PM (X3KVz)
47
Earl is big on quotes (and saying in 100 words theat which may be said in ten). He squirrels them away for the winter to feed his dementia and as troll-ammo.
I like quotes, too. Let's look at some of our prominent Democreep's positions on Iraq. Earl, let's play the "Who Said It?" game.
http://www.whosaiditiraq.blogspot.com/
Posted by: Mark at November 26, 2006 02:06 PM (isTfo)
48
Spy --
"Do you or Earl or anyone pointing the accusatory fingers have actual solutions? Then tell the newly anointed Democrat saviors in the House and Senate. They need some new ideas. Haven't seen any there yet - just some in-fighting."
I already said, I haven't a clue about what to do in Iraq. W's plan is to "stay the course" -- or has it never been "stay the course"? Anyway he's going to leave it to his successor. So the shoe fits you pretty well too.
"George W. Bush gave up booze decades ago - long before taking on the responsibilities as Governor of Texas and President of the United States. His Air National Guard duty and leftie rumors surrounding his alleged AWOL status then also have nothing to do with what his responsibilities are now."
That is only in Clown World, where 'moral compass' is the primary job qualification. Here on Earth we care about what we call 'experience' and 'qualifications'. We see drunk, drug addict, playboy, arrest record, Christian who doesn't go to church, unskilled, poor servicemen, twice failed executive, and we think, "Bad!" I'd say it's all a matter of opinion, but it's not. You're just wrong.
And, yes, the jig's up, Spy.
Posted by: Earl at November 26, 2006 06:16 PM (yXuTl)
49
"Well, Retired Spy, I don't have solutions to this problem, and I never said I did. Note that I'm not the commander-in-chief; it's not my job to come up with solutions."
Now that is what I do call an inconvenient truth, isn't it? It's not your job to have some ideas? It is not your job to be an involved American? It is only your job to constantly criticize? Is it not your job to choose those who govern. Do you do that without forethought? Just a shot in the dark? Too complex to actually get involved in the process?
I just loved those lame analogies. I really liked the car one and approaching the edge of a cliff. So, if you don't know how to drive you don't even grab for the steering wheel? So, if your friend is sick and you're not a Doctor, you don't at the very least take him/her to the Doctor's office? You just sit on your ass and make observations? What a fine guy you are ....
Posted by: Retired Spy at November 26, 2006 06:22 PM (Xw2ki)
50
Mark -- "He squirrels them away for the winter to feed his dementia and as troll-ammo."
That's actually pretty funny, I tip my hat to you.
The page of quotes you provided is not even a fig leaf. Whether or not some Dems thought military force was a good idea, this war is the fault of W. There's no debate on this point. (Maybe in Clown World your sources show that Clinton started the war, but whatever.) Here on Earth, everybody knows it was W. W conceived it, lied for it, failed to realize it would turn into an occupation, thought it would be a cakewalk, thought we'd be greeted as liberators, thought Saddam had WMD, thought it was a good idea to fire the Iraqi army, etc etc etc. W W W W W. No if's and's or but's.
It's charming how you guys stick up for him -- he's just the little ol' president, and he got lied to by Tenet and Blair, those meanies. But here on Earth, the president is responsible. I thought you repubs were good about personal resposibility, by the way?
The jig's up, Mark.
Posted by: Earl at November 26, 2006 06:25 PM (yXuTl)
51
Please elucidate on those accusations you list again. Where is the documented evidence to support your claims of "drunk, drug addict, playboy, arrest record, Christian who doesn't go to church, unskilled, poor servicemen (SIC), twice failed executive", Earl?
Ya been reading those checkout counter tabloids again?
Posted by: Retired Spy at November 26, 2006 06:29 PM (Xw2ki)
52
Spy -- what church does he go to? Dollars to doughnuts you can't tell me.
You know he was a drunk playboy. That's not even in doubt. He doesn't deny that or cocaine use, he just won't talk about it, and unlike Dems, he doesn't have to answer those questions.
I described his 'service' in the Guard. He skipped a physical and got grounded, switched to mail detail in Alabama where no one saw him, left that early for HBS. That is a poor serviceman.
Go look up a stock quote for 'Arbusto'.
Really, what church does he go to? Has the cat got your tongue?
Posted by: Earl at November 26, 2006 06:38 PM (yXuTl)
53
Sorry, Earl .... You're still a pathetic little wannabe pussy....
Posted by: Retired Spy at November 26, 2006 06:40 PM (Xw2ki)
54
Spy -- what church does he go to Earl? Just google for it. Should only take you a minute or two. You're not going to let a wannabe pussy like me get away with calling the Great Leader of Clown World a hypocrite, are you?
Posted by: Earl at November 26, 2006 06:44 PM (yXuTl)
Posted by: Earl at November 26, 2006 06:49 PM (yXuTl)
56
If you are so damn stupid to believe that a person's choice of religion or the church most frequently attended is a measure of the man or the man's character, you are really grasping for straws.
It looks like your jig is up.
It's time for CY to pull the plug on you, but that's his call.
Posted by: Retired Spy at November 26, 2006 06:49 PM (Xw2ki)
57
Bush is a Methodist. I am a Lutheran who became a Catholic nut now attend a Congregational Church. Who the hell cares?
I used to drink and smoke too. That did not stop me from being successful or from sharing with those less fortunate.
The past has passed, and hopefully we all learn from both successes and failures.
What have you learned, Earl? It looks like you are still pretty low on the learning curve .....
Posted by: Retired Spy at November 26, 2006 06:59 PM (Xw2ki)
58
You're changing the subject. You challenged my assertion that he's a Christian who doesn't go to church. What's the name of the church? Or do you cede the point?
Loser.
Posted by: Earl at November 26, 2006 07:16 PM (yXuTl)
59
Retired Spy, why do you get so frothingly angry at everything? It seems that it's not possible to calmly discuss anything with you--every interaction needs to turn into namecalling and chestbeating.
To extend the car/cliff metaphor: I guess I did try to take the wheel. That's what the midterm elections were about. Millions of Americans all tried to take the wheel out of Bush's hands. Unfortunately, nobody gets to climb into the driver's seat until January 20, 2009, but people can do the bast they can do until then. The plan? Drive away from the cliff. That's why so many Progressives are calling for some form of troop drawdown. The details differ, but the basic idea is to do the opposite of what is not now working.
Posted by: Doc Washboard at November 26, 2006 07:30 PM (X3KVz)
60
That is to say, the "best" they can.
Posted by: Doc Washboard at November 26, 2006 07:33 PM (X3KVz)
61
Huffington:
Allow me to enlarge somewhat O Lord upon this particular thanks. Despite six years of suppurating drivel from his catamites about leadership and inner strength and Christian fortitude and courage under fire: George W Bush is, was and always will be that sneering, leering little creep who came to school in a chauffeur-driven car, yelled racist epithets at the scholarship kids, tripped up the guy on crutches, stuck his paw up the dress of any girl he pleased, had his toadies beat up anyone smart or weak or different, insulted teachers to their faces - and got away with it all, because his Dad had just endowed the new sports stadium.
Earl:
That is only in Clown World, where 'moral compass' is the primary job qualification. Here on Earth we care about what we call 'experience' and 'qualifications'. We see drunk, drug addict, playboy, arrest record, Christian who doesn't go to church, unskilled, poor servicemen, twice failed executive, and we think, "Bad!" I'd say it's all a matter of opinion, but it's not. You're just wrong.
Earl is doing his best to validate the disgust CY expressed about the posting at Huffington - at least, he doesn't sound much different.
Posted by: SouthernRoots at November 26, 2006 07:57 PM (RkTnk)
62
SouthernRoots -- I can't speak for Huffington.
I'll be more impressed if you can prove I'm wrong. I'm sorry that facts are such a downer there in Clown World.
Posted by: Earl at November 26, 2006 08:07 PM (yXuTl)
63
Spy? Where are you friend? Have you found the name of W's church yet? You challenged me on it then said it's not important anyway. You're not a sore loser are you?
You can call me names again. Maybe that will make you feel better. I'm sorry life in Clown World isn't what it used to be, but there's no getting around it -- the jig is up.
Posted by: Earl at November 26, 2006 08:13 PM (yXuTl)
64
Huh? "You challenged my assertion that he's a Christian who doesn't go to church." I don't give a rat's ass if Bush attends church or not. What difference does it make? Is a person less of a Christian or Jew if there is no regular attendance at a church or Synagogue? Your statements get dumber and dumber.
Who the hell are you to judge anything about anyone? You are the one who claimed Bush is/was a "drunk, drug addict, playboy, [had an] arrest record, [is a] Christian who doesn't go to church, unskilled, poor servicemen (SIC), twice failed executive." Using drugs at one time does not make someone an addict. Dating more than one woman does not make a man a playboy. Not attending church regularly does not make a man a heathen.
You, Earl, are a pathetic little fool.
Posted by: Retired Spy at November 26, 2006 08:15 PM (Xw2ki)
65
Spy -- "Where is the documented evidence to support your claims of ... Christian who doesn't go to church ... Earl?" Do you plead liar or idiot?
Now you don't care if it's true or not or not. Classy, very classy! By gum, I envy you Clown Worlders from time to time.
What's Arbusto at now? I bet the market cap is still lofty from W's stewardship. Did W get grounded in the Guard or not? You're okay with the fact that W was a cocaine user? He's talked about drinking problems. Not having much of a job, spending a lot of money, drinking a lot and partying doth make for a playboy, no matter many women he dated. Tell me how I'm wrong.
The jig's up, Spy. Clown World is a ghost of its old self.
Posted by: Earl at November 26, 2006 08:28 PM (yXuTl)
66
Earl - Why try? Your mind is made up and the door is closed. You believe what you think is the truth and are adamantly opposed to any form of reason to the contrary.
Time to dust off the sandals and move on.
Posted by: SouthernRoots at November 26, 2006 08:28 PM (RkTnk)
67
SouthernRoots -- oh but I'm eager for you to change my mind. I'm afraid if what I said above is true then you're, well -- a loser. So why not prove me wrong?
Your side has called me a traitor for six years. I'm just warming up.
Posted by: Earl at November 26, 2006 08:35 PM (yXuTl)
68
I believe it would be best for everyone to ignore this Earl person from here on out.
It appears that it is he who is the fool and loser.
Posted by: Militant Infidel at November 26, 2006 08:38 PM (Xw2ki)
69
Wasn't it the Dixie Chicks who got famous with a song about getting even with a guy named "Earl". Guess they are in the same place EArl is today---nowhere.
Posted by: brian at November 27, 2006 02:49 PM (K/1G6)
70
Militant Falafel
"It appears that it is he who is the fool and loser" I make charge after charge and cite fact after fact and no one, including you, is willing to engage. You just call me names. You will always have a warm fire to return to in Clown World.
brian -- That's real interesting. Now run along home son.
Posted by: Earl at November 27, 2006 05:42 PM (yXuTl)
71
I've just had to delete another obscene comment from this thread.
I'm closing comments on this post, and starting to consider whether I should install a registered commenting system, or if I should simply do away with the headache of adminstering comments at all, as many other blogs have done.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at November 28, 2006 10:22 AM (g5Nba)
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Russia Delivers U.S. Missile Targets To Iran
How thoughtful:
Russia has begun deliveries of the Tor-M1 air defence rocket system to Iran, Russian news agencies quoted military industry sources as saying, in the latest sign of a Russian-US rift over Iran.
"Deliveries of the Tor-M1 have begun. The first systems have already been delivered to Tehran," ITAR-TASS quoted an unnamed, high-ranking source as saying Friday.
The United States has pressed Russia to halt military sales to Iran, which Washington accuses of harbouring secret plans to build a nuclear weapon.
Moscow has consistently defended its weapons trade with Iran. Russian Defense Minister Sergei Ivanov said the contract for 29 rocket systems, signed in December last year, was legitimate because the Tor-M1 has a purely defensive role.
ITAR-TASS reported that the rockets were to be deployed around Iran's nuclear sites, including the still incomplete, Russian-built atomic power station at Bushehr.
Isn't that nice of the Russians to deliver a
short-range missile system designed to take on low to mid-level targets, knowing that we have
long-range anti-radar missiles to counter them?
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
10:01 AM
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Posted by: Purple Avenger at November 24, 2006 08:33 PM (wfN0Q)
2
Lebanese Girl:
http://ikbis.com/beirut%20girl/shot/1300
OK -- THIS is what it's all about. Democracies have to be willing to die, so this person can do this anytime she wants, without interference or persecution. (It's not dirty, it's just FUN, and full of spirit, and hope, and JOY)
ISLAMISTS HATE THIS
Posted by: DemocracyRules at November 24, 2006 10:25 PM (+WNUd)
3
Why don't we buy one or two of these missile systems and reverse engineer the countermeasures for rendering it useless?
Posted by: RayM at November 25, 2006 03:21 PM (4s15j)
4
WE DON'T HAVE TO NUKE anyone, because we are winning the war, and (1) North Korea has no usable weapons; their "fizzle" shot occurred because they only have REACTOR grade plutonium (80% pure or less), which could only be refined to weapons grade at enormous cost. They don't have significant usable uranium, (3) Most Russian nukes are mothballed and have degraded to an unusable state, (4) Iran has no idea what they're doing, and Russia is just taking their money. Iran seems to have hoped to get a North Korea nuke, but now realize that huge, ship-sized nukes that only fizzle are useless.
Posted by: DemocracyRules at November 25, 2006 11:32 PM (+WNUd)
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Gun Day, Bloody Gun Day
Black Friday... what a wonderful day to pull a nine-hour shift behind the gun counter at my local sporting goods store!
Just remember kids, I have the right to refuse service to
anyone, at any time, for any reason, so be
nice. I will not sell any of my merchandise to anyone who appears they may be of a mindset to use to expedite their shopping elsewhere.
Form a line to the right, smile, and have a nice day.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
09:33 AM
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1
Heh. It is said an armed society is a polite society.
Hope you get record sales.
Posted by: Cindi at November 24, 2006 04:03 PM (asVsU)
2
"Shop smart, shop S-Mart."
Posted by: Tennessee Budd at November 27, 2006 04:49 PM (wXSVh)
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November 23, 2006
Happy Thanksgiving
Give thanks to the LORD, for he is good; his love endures forever. Let the redeemed of the LORD say this—those he redeemed from the hand of the foe, those he gathered from the lands, from east and west, from north and south. Some wandered in desert wastelands, finding no way to a city where they could settle. They were hungry and thirsty, and their lives ebbed away. Then they cried out to the LORD in their trouble, and he delivered them from their distress. He led them by a straight way to a city where they could settle. Let them give thanks to the LORD for his unfailing love and his wonderful deeds for men, for he satisfies the thirsty and fills the hungry with good things.
From me and mine, a Happy Thanksgiving to all, especially our
servicemen and women overseas. You are in our prayers.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
09:41 AM
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1
Thanks, you helped make my day!
Posted by: 2cups at November 23, 2006 09:58 AM (Narou)
2
I've enjoyed your blog a lot, so thanks for everything. Have a very happy and blessed Thanksgiving!
God bless!
Posted by: John at November 23, 2006 11:26 AM (tROri)
Posted by: seawitch at November 23, 2006 11:47 AM (RseH7)
4
Happy Thanksgiving to everyone at CY!
Posted by: lady redhawk at November 23, 2006 03:05 PM (jx05q)
5
Thanks for the leadership and insight into this time.
Posted by: NortonPete at November 23, 2006 04:32 PM (fVuwW)
6
Thank you CY and Happy Thanksgiving to you and yours - and all of the readers/commenters here - even the trolls.
Posted by: Specter at November 23, 2006 07:16 PM (ybfXM)
7
And from me and mine to you and yours - a very Happy Thanksgiving! We have much to be thankful for these days.
God bless.
Posted by: Old Soldier at November 23, 2006 07:17 PM (owAN1)
Posted by: Consul-At-Arms at November 24, 2006 02:31 AM (I0cnc)
9
Belated Happy Thanksgiving.
Rick
Posted by: Rick Watson at November 24, 2006 07:04 AM (en6cM)
10
Another belated greeting - from the warmer-than-usual prairies of central Minnesota - to you and yours and to all those brave men and women in the military service to their country.
Happy Thanksgiving and God Bless America!
Jerry Haberer [AKA, Retired Spy]
Posted by: Retired Spy at November 24, 2006 08:32 AM (Xw2ki)
11
Happy thanksgiving! And consider this a manual trackback since your trackback feature is complainin'.
Posted by: directorblue at November 24, 2006 08:49 AM (z1M8l)
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November 22, 2006
Is the BBC Reporting the Right Press Releases?
The BCC published an article today on the Israeli use of cluster munitions during the recent war with Hezbollah in Lebanon:
The Israeli army is to investigate the way cluster bombs were used during the recent conflict with Hezbollah.
The chief of the defence staff has said he prohibited the wide use of the munitions during the conflict.
But human rights observers in southern Lebanon say up to a million "bomblets" were left in the country after the war.
No one will dispute that the aerial bombing conducted during Desert Storm was far more intense than the bombing raids conducted by Israel against Hezbollah forces in Lebanon, and in Desert Storm, the U.S. Air Force dropped
10,035 CBU-87 cluster bombs on military targets. The CBU-87 a 950-pound bomb has 202 submunitions. Doing a little quick math, and we can determine that 10,035 bombs times 202 submunitions per bomb means that a total of 2,027,070 submunitions were dropped during Desert Storm.
But these cluster munitions have a reported dud rate of up to 16%, meaning that in this much larger conflict, 324,332 submunitions would have failed to explode.
Much larger war, many fewer duds. Do you detect an odor yet? Read on.
In the recent war between Hezbollah and Israel, most of not all of the cluster munitions fired were delivered not by aircraft, but by artillery. Human Rights Watch
notes that the Israelis used 155mm artillery to deliver DPICM projectiles. Each 155mm DPICM shell contains 88 submunitions.
To get to a figure of the million unexploded "bomblets" claimed by the BBC, Israel would have had to have fired 7,142,858 155mm DPICM
shells submunitions (1,000,000 dud submunitions is 14% of 7,142,857.143, according to this
handy little tool).
To say that Israel did not have the number of weapons, stockpiles of a minimum of 7,142,858 DPICM
shells submunitions (7,142,858 submunitions is 81,169 shells), or time to deliver them in a conflict less than a month long, would be a gross understatement.
So where did the Beeb get it's figures? I
have a suspicion:
MAG has sent a special team from Iraq into Lebanon to help get rid of the thousands of cluster bombs and other unexploded munitions from the villages and towns in the south of the country.
MAG's technical field manager, Salaam Mohammed Amin, leading the 19 highly-trained Iraqi-Kurd technicians, said: "Our staff cleared more than a million unexploded items in just one year in Iraq. It meant we helped reduce civilian victim rates after the conflict from a devastating high of around 500 per month to nearer three per month today - we hope to help the people of Lebanon in the same way."
It appears that the Beeb may have botched the Mine Advisory Group press release, somehow getting it into their heads that million of rounds of unexploded munitions in Iraq (munitions dispersed over decades of fighting) translated to a million submunitions in Lebanon.
Or at least that is what I
hope happened, because if that isn't the case, that would suggest that the BBC published someone
else's press release without checking the validity—or even the statistical possibility—of what they are reporting.
And the BBC wouldn't do that... would they?
Update:Via
Matthew Sheffield -
Heh.
Update: Updated a screw-up above. A million dud submunitions would be the result of more than 7,142,858
submunitions fired, not
shells. 7,142,858 submunitions is (at 88 submunitions per shell) 81,168 DPICM shells, still averaging an extraordinary rate of fire of 2,459 DPICM shells per day (33 days between 12 July and 14 Sept)
on top of the more conventional ordinance fired inside the narrow swath of Lebanon that Israeli M109 155 mm SP artillery fire can reach, which is just 14.6 miles.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
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1
I'm sure he's reporting the right number...but there's a catch:
They are certainly counting each and every rifle and pistol round left behind and/or scattered from the IDF air strikes hitting Hezzy ammo bunkers. And you could get those kind of numbers if you did count each and every bullet you found...which is technically an unexploded ordinance. More hype to make their mission more "flashy" (if you'll pardon the pun) and the hype makes Israel look bad.
So, were there a million UXO's out there after the IDF left? Sure, you could say that, but unfired small arms rounds aren't bombs unless you're into the whole apples and oranges comparisons (which is something the Arabs are always doing when it relates to Israel).
Posted by: WB at November 22, 2006 05:55 PM (hV3oD)
2
Given your estimate of 16% dud rate of unexploded bomblets, to get 1,000,000 unexploded bomblets you would have needed a starting number of 6.25 million (1 million / 16 x 100). If each shell contains 88 bomblets, you would need a mere 71,022 shells to leave behind a million unexploded bomblets (6,225,000 / 8

.
That would make the actual number of shells less than 1% of your estimate.
Posted by: ff11 at November 22, 2006 10:33 PM (L5nKp)
3
Consider the source. BBC, Associated (With Terrorists) Press, CNN, the U.N., all noted for lying through their teeth.
The U.N. reported a sharp spike in violent deaths in Iraq last month. The Iraqi Health Minister said 'the U.N. is lying' the deaths were 1/4 of the U.N. count. He didn't studder, 'they are lying'. I believe the Iraqi Health Minister since an in-country blogger also says the attacks have been greatly reduced. Remember, Oct was the all out effort by the U.N./Terrorists to influence the American elections. Americans like the people of Spain fell for the propaganda hook, line and sinker. That proves that over 50% of the American voting public doesn't have the guts to protect this country or support freedon anywhere in the world.
Posted by: Scrapiron at November 22, 2006 11:42 PM (YadGF)
4
Does the fact that you have a personal bias against the UN somehow magically correct the math this article was based on? Or are you just trying to deflect attention from the issue at hand?
Posted by: ff11 at November 23, 2006 12:52 AM (L5nKp)
5
Sorry if I got overly aggressive. Your numbers for submunitions sound right. Whether that is a reasonable number or not, I don't know. I know that Hezbollah reportedly fired over 4000 missiles, so I'm not sure if 80,000 shells fired by Israel would be an unrealistic number.
Posted by: ff11 at November 23, 2006 01:22 AM (L5nKp)
6
Regarding MAG, just because that 80 member team has FOUND 100.000 bomblets to date, does not mean that they have already found the majority.
Regarding the Hezbollah rocket delivered cluster munitions, do you have a source for this claim? I seem to recall only hearing about rockets filled with bolts and screws.
Posted by: ff11 at November 23, 2006 01:36 AM (L5nKp)
7
It's not a matter of how many pounds of explosives were used, but what fraction was composed of cluster bombs. We tend not to use cluster bombs in areas that would be likely to affect civilian populations, and were upset enough with Israel for using them to hold up rocket shipments during this conflict.
You seem to be shocked by the rougly 4000 bomblets used by Hezbollah, while you are totally accepting of the 4,000,000 bomblets used by Israel (both figures from the same article), and you don't see a bias in your position?
Posted by: ff11 at November 23, 2006 02:25 AM (L5nKp)
8
The equivalent of 102 shells an hour, 24 hours a day for 33 days, seems a bit much. And lobbing cluster-shells isn't the only purpose for firing artillery, so I'd expect there to be many more than just 80,000 to have been fired if 80,000 were fired at all. That would up the shells per day considerably.
Artillery isn't fired willy-nilly by the IDF the way Hezbollah shoots off their rockets. Targets need to be determined and, with cluster-bombs, the intended targets aren't stationary, so I'd expect that forward spotters or some other surveillance would be required both for acquiring the targets and verifying elimination.
To fire some 80,000 cluster shells seems like a lot of forward work, and rather ineffective at that considering the IDF claims they only killed some 500 Hezbollah fighters, not to mention that a lot of those fighters were killed by means other than artillery shells.
And just to note, the IDF never even hinted at the efforts of the artillery work, neither did the press report much about the devastation visited on southern Lebanon by the IDF raining some 80,000 shells upon it during those 33 days. However, the IDF did make an effort to announce there naval and aerial efforts, which was reported in the press to a considerable extent. That was summarized by the IDF here:
http://www1.idf.il/dover/site/mainpage.asp?clr=1&sl=EN&id=7&docid=56539
CY's skepticism seems fully warranted here and until the 80 member MAG team does find the majority, or even all, for that matter, the BBC ought to stick to reporting what is known, not what they want to presume. Then again, maybe CY is on to something: BBC reporters botch things rather easily.
Posted by: Dusty at November 23, 2006 02:53 AM (GJLeQ)
9
"Actually, you are more than likely wrong here, as well, on multiple levels."
----------------------------
Wrong here, "as well"? Let's not forget that you were the one who was wrong. Regarding MAG, Your guess that the majority of duds have been found seems to be entirely unfounded.
First, over 100,000 bomblets have already been found.
Second, the ones that are found are likely to be in the more populated areas (cities, villages)
Third, we won't know if the supermajority have been found until and unless they stop finding any more.
Posted by: ff11 at November 23, 2006 02:55 AM (L5nKp)
10
The equivalent of 102 shells an hour, 24 hours a day for 33 days, seems a bit much.
-----------------
Assuming they were using one launcher, yes, that would be a bit much. Assuming they were using hundreds, not so much, actually it makes it seem like they were loafing much of the time.
Also note that just because Israel has used the DPICM shells to deliver cluster bombs doesn't mean that they have not used any other means:
Israel has in its arsenal cluster munitions delivered by aircraft, artillery and rockets. Israel is a major producer and exporter of cluster munitions, primarily artillery projectiles and rockets containing M85 DPICM (Dual Purpose Improved Conventional Munition) submunitions. Israeli Military Industries, an Israeli government-owned weapons manufacturer, has reportedly produced more than 60 million M85 DPICM submunitions. Israel also produces at least six different types of air-dropped cluster bombs, and has imported from the United States M26 rockets for its Multiple Launch Rocket Systems.
Posted by: ff11 at November 23, 2006 03:02 AM (L5nKp)
11
BBC ?
Its like getting your facts from a comic book
BBC Mantra
"put out story before getting facts or truth "
1984
Posted by: earth56 at November 23, 2006 03:39 PM (t9vOW)
12
ff11......Hezbolah did not fire "missiles" into Isreal, they fired "Rockets". Theres a huge difference between the two
and do you really think that their warheads were filled with "nuts and bolts"? How do nuts and bolts start fires? Is there any circumstance where you can see Iran shipping expensive rockets but not shipping the inexpensive explosives for the warheads?
get real
Posted by: senorlechero at November 23, 2006 11:51 PM (HbHrK)
13
You tell me, here is the reality:
http://vitalperspective.typepad.com/vital_perspective_clarity/2006/07/human_rights_wa.html
http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2006/7/24/154609.shtml
Do your own search for "Hezbollah rockets filled with", pick a news source you believe.
I'm not claiming that they were not deadly. It was war. But with very rare exceptions, they were NOT cluster weapons. The difference is that cluster weapons keep killing and maiming LONG after the war is over. Ball bearings do not.
Posted by: ff11 at November 25, 2006 11:08 AM (L5nKp)
14
As a former Fire Support Officer with a Paladin BN let me back up Bob here that this report is a turd blossom. No freaking way. I doubt if they even have the number of shells required to leave this many duds. I doubt they even fired that many into urban areas anyway. Israel has a professional military and professional militaries have restrictive measures against firing dual purpose improved conventional munitions into built up areas. Besides the humanitarian issues, it doesn't make sense to use the relatively small blast radius and explosive power of DPICM against fixed facilities. DPICM is good for area denial like a column of armor. If you are firing into an urban area at a building, HE makes more sense. Sounds like somebody is just trying to get free advertising for their business along with the benefit of propaganda.
Posted by: ray robison at November 27, 2006 10:27 PM (4joLu)
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Regarding the Harriet Miers of Defense...
Yet another well-stated reason that Robert Gates should not be Secretary of Defense, from Hugh Hewitt's interview with Victor David Hanson (my bold):
HH: ...Does the President have the ability to wage aggressive war with a pacifist Congress?
VDH: I think he does, but let's be candid, Hugh. The problem right now isn't...it may be the left wing Congress, but he's got another problem, and that is he's bringing in Robert Gates, and he's bringing in the Baker realism, and that doesn't have a good record. That's the people who said don't talk to Yeltsin. Let's stick with Gorbacev. Let's not go to Baghdad. Let the Shia and Kurds die. Let's arm the Islamisists to fight the Soviets in Afghanistan and then leave. It's not a good record. It's short-term expediency at the expense of long-term morality. And it's not in the interest of the United States to do that, to cut a deal with these countries.
To put it bluntly, "realists" like Robert Gates and James Baker did much to create the situation in the Middle East with which we are now faced.
There is a place in the world for Robert Gates, and that place is, and should remain, Texas A&M.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
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A buzzard won't drink from a watering hole surrounded by dead carcasses. Rats won't eat food that has other dead rats around it.
Even buzzards and rats with brains smaller than a marble have more common sense and intelligence than this administration and Congress.
Truly pathetic...
Posted by: WB at November 22, 2006 06:02 PM (hV3oD)
2
That is to say that Bush and Congress keep going back and partaking of the same failed policies by the same failed people.
How utterly pathetic...
Posted by: WB at November 22, 2006 06:03 PM (hV3oD)
3
Rubbish. The decision to not topple Saddam wasn't made in a vaccum; and it was forced on us by Syria, Saudi, Jordan, et al. Ref: The Gulf Conflict, Freedman and Karsh. Holding Gates responsible (who was CIA director at the time, and doesn't even make foreign policy) is just stupid.
Posted by: Dawnfire82 at November 22, 2006 07:29 PM (RvTAf)
4
I have to disagree with VDH on this. We live in a fluid society, people, if they are smart, don't necessarily make decisions based on categories, but on situations. Robert Gates has already come out and stated that the US needs to have dialogue with Iran. BTW, the decision to not go to Baghdad in 1991 is because of the time we were in, our population was not able to deal with this type of a situation.
http://www.cfr.org/publication/7195/
Also, as an Aggie, I will take an optimistic interpretation on your comment about staying at TAMU in that he needs to teach our young brains how to deal effectively with foreign nations. Cheers Pal!
Capt Jason Morris USAF
NATO Geilenkirchen, Germany
Posted by: Jason at November 23, 2006 11:45 AM (8PSZv)
5
It's short-term expediency at the expense of long-term morality.
This is asinine. We shouldn't have a "moral" foreign policy if it'll blow up in our faces. The problem with the realists of the 80s wasn't that they weren't moral, it's that they were insufficiently focused on long-term expediency. Obviously it'd be nice if long-term expediency and morality converged, but if they don't, we should always take the former over the latter.
Posted by: jpe at November 23, 2006 03:35 PM (xT7VL)
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Kneecapping Snakes
Jules Crittenden, Boston Herald city editor and columnist blogs this morning:
It will be interesting after the assassination of Pierre Gemayel in Lebanon ... not to mention last summer's hijacking of the nation by Hezbollah ... not to mention last year's assassination of Rafik Hariri ... not to mention the last 25 years of Syrian and Iranian interference in Lebanon and now in Iraq ... it will be interesting to see if anyone will still counsel talks with Syria and Iran under any terms that do not include a very real threat of force.
The assassination of Pierre Gemayel was the
fifth assassination of an anti-Syrian politician in Lebanon, and was meant to be the sixth--Michel Pharaon, a Greek Catholic member of the ruling coalition and minister for parliamentary affairs--was
meant to be the fifth, but the hit at his office in Lebanon just hours before the Gemayel assassination failed. The goal of targeting Gemayel and Pharon is clear. If both assassinations were successful, less than two-thirds of the 24-member Lebanese cabinet would remain following the now suspicious resignations of six pro-Syrian/pro-Iranian (five Shiite, 1 Christian) ministers last week.
The combination of the Gemayel assassination and the earlier resignations means that the government is effectively frozen, unable to enact any new legislation. If the attempted assassination of Pharaon had been successful, a future assassination attempt against any other minister is successful, or another minister resigns,
Article 69 of the Lebanese constitution stipulates that the government is automatically resigned. It is likely a fair assumption that the assassination attempts on Gemayel (successful) and Pharaon (unsuccessful) were conducted with the express intent of toppling the pro-western Fuad Sinora government, which is then quite likely to be replaced by a pro-Syrian, Hezbollah-controlled regime. It is, as Michael Totten
noted yesterday, nothing less than a coup d'etat in progress.
President Bush
condemned the Gemayel murder as an act of terrorism and accused Syria and Iran of attempting to undermine Lebanon's government, but stopped short of accusing them of Gemayel's murder, presumably because of the current lack of evidence of direct Syrian and/or Iranian involvement.
But, considering the facts that we already know about Iranian and Syrian involvement in supporting terrorism in Lebanon, Iraq, and elsewhere, do we really need any more proof to justify taking action against both nations?
As I've been noting with increased sense of urgency over the past week or so, Syria and Iran must be made accountable in some way for their continued state sponsorship of terrorism. Currently, that support is most precipitous in Lebanon where they are supporting what appears to be a coup attempt, and with their support of terrorists operating directly against U.S. and Iraqi government forces inside Iraq.
Obviously, political pressure would be the preferred manner of dealing with both nations, but thus far, both nations have shown themselves to be adamantly unmoved by U.S. entreaties to stay out of affairs in Lebanon, and Iraq.
Syria and Iran were both warned weeks ago to avoid involving themselves in an attempt to topple the government in Lebanon; Gamayel's murder and the attempt on Pharaon's life were their answer.
Iran and Syria have played a direct role in supporting the terrorist group Hezbollah with
$300 million in cash and their rearming, providing up to 30,000 rockets to levels
even greater than Hezbollah had before the recent conflict they instigated against Israel by kidnapping Israeli soldiers.
In addition to attempting to topple the government of Lebanon, Iran and Syria have been behind efforts to cause instability in Iraq, permitting terrorists to use their borders to infiltrate in with
pre-rigged IEDs that are used to target U.S.
and British servicemen.
According to Bob Woodward's new book,
State of Denial, Iran's elite Revolutionary Guards was urging Hezbollah to train Iraqi insurgents on how to build and use shaped-charge IEDs to target American armored vehicles. Woodward states (via
NRO):
Pages 414-415: "Some evidence indicated that the Iranian-backed terrorist group Hezbollah was training insurgents to build and use the shaped IED's, at the urging of the Iranian Revolutionary Guard Corps. That kind of action was arguably an act of war by Iran against the United States. If we start putting out everything we know about these things, Zelikow felt, the administration might well start a fire it couldn't put out..."
Page 449: "The components and the training for (the IEDs) had more and more clearly been traced to Iran, one of the most troubling turns in the war."
Page 474ß: "The radical Revolutionary Guards Corps had asked Hizbollah, the terrorist organization, to conduct some of the training of Iraqis to use the EFPs, according to U.S. Intelligence. If all this were put out publicly, it might start a fire that no one could put out...Second, if it were true, it meant that Iranians were killing American soldiers — an act of war..."
And from the same
National Review column:
It's not the first time we have had information about Iran's murder of Americans. Louis Freeh tells us that the same thing happened following the Khobar Towers bombing in Saudi Arabia. On page 18 of Freeh's My FBI he reports that Saudi Ambassador Bandar told Freeh "we have the goods," pointing "ineluctably towad Iran." The culprits were the same as in Iraq: Hezbollah, under direction from the Iranian Revolutionary Guards and the Iranian Ministry of Intelligence. And then there was a confession from outgoing Iranian President Hashemi Rafsanjani to Crown Prince Abdullah (at the time, effectively the Saudi king): page 19: "the Khobar attack had been planned and carried out with the knowledge of the Iranian supreme ruler, Ayatollah Khamenei."
As Freeh puts it, "this had been an act of war against the United States of America."
Whether or not the President acknowledges it, a state of war exists between the United States and the governments of Iran and Syria. The question before us now is whether or not we chose to acknowledge this state of war that our adversaries have instigated, and if we will take the steps needed end this state of conflict with a minimal loss of life on all sides.
Any response we make—political, economic or military—may trigger a renewed rocket assault on Israel by Hezbollah, and a dramatic surge in violence against U.S. and Iraqi government forces in Iraq by Shia militias loyal to Iran. This is in addition to direct counterstrikes that the Syrian and Iranian military may have preplanned against U.S. forces and allied nations throughout the Middle East. Such actions would likely include Iranian attempts to target and destroy refineries, oil pumping stations, ports, and pipelines and oil rigs in Kuwait, Saudi Arabia, and other Persian Gulf Nations, in addition to an attempt to close the Straits of Hormuz to shipping, thereby paralyzing many of the world's economies dependent on the free flow of Persian Gulf oil.
Therefore, the best and only option available to the United States and allied nations threatened by Iran and Syria is an overwhelming series of air strikes that will cripple these ability of these two nations to project military power both directly and indirectly, along with the explicit message that further measures taken by Iran and Syria to effect changes through the use of terrorism or through conventional warfare will result in far more debilitating attacks that would wreck the economies of these nations and threaten the very existence of their regimes.
The "biggest sticks" in the Iranian arsenal are two-fold; their ability to influence terrorists in Iraq and in Lebanon, and their purported ability to close the Persian Gulf to shipping via military means. Syria has much more limited capabilities.
Very little can be done to
directly stop Syrian and Iranian contributions to terrorism, but as Syria is something of a client state of Iran, our best opportunity may be to take on the "head of the snake;" where Iran leads, Syria will likely follow, and Iran is in a far more precipitous position than they would have us believe.
As
Global Security notes, Iran's primary means of affecting Persian Gulf Shipping is their smallest and most obsolete branch of service, the Iranian Navy:
Iran's three destroyers are over 50 years old and are not operational. The readiness of the three 25-year-old frigates is almost non-existent, and the two 30-year-old corvettes do not have sophisticated weapons. Ten of 20 missile-equipped fast attack craft have limited operational readiness, and four of them are not seaworthy as of 2001. Only 10 Chinese-made Thodor-class craft are operationally reliable. The four 30-year-old minesweepers are obsolete, lack seaworthiness, and do not have a mine-sweeping capability. Iran has many amphibious and auxiliary ships, but these are superfluous to requirements and are used purely for training personnel. Iran's ten hovercraft are old and used sparingly.
Iran's greatest naval threats are Chinese-made high-speed C-14 and similar missile gunboats, three Russian-designed
Kilo-class submarines, and island and platform-mounted anti-ship missile batteries.
It would take comparatively little effort or tactical risk for American Air Force and Naval aircraft to send the ships, small craft and submarines of the Iranian Navy to the bottom of the Persian Gulf, with Iranian forces on platforms and on small Iranian-controlled islands being slightly more difficult.
The destruction of Iran's nominal Persian Gulf fleet would be a crushing psychological blow to both Iran and Syria, and it would greatly reduce Iran's capability to threaten Persian Gulf shipping, a factor that to date has let Iran support terrorism as the rest of the world has turned a blind eye.
What would possibly keep Iran or their proxies from retaliating is a threat issued concurrent to U.S. air strikes on the Iranian navy:
You've seen what we have done to your navy. How long with your government last if we decide to target your refineries and blockade any ship attempting to deliver refined petroleum products to Iran? Stop supporting terrorism in Iraq and Lebanon, or these further steps will be taken.
One of Iran's dirty little secrets is this: for a nation rich in oil, they are very poor in their ability to convert this oil into usable fuel.
The threat issued would state that if Iran attempts to retaliate, either directly or indirectly to the reduction of their Navy, further air strikes could decimate their very limited refinery capability, while a blockade in the Gulf of Oman of Iran-bound tankers carrying refined fuels would cause Iran to "dry up" within weeks. Iran’s military and their economy would be crippled with comparatively little effort on the part of the United States Navy, which could enforce a blockade well outside the range of Iranian countermeasures.
Iran has already begun a war with the United States and seeks to wage it via proxies in Iraq and Lebanon. It is time that we reduce the threat of Hezbollah and Shiite militias to ourselves and our allies by cutting them off at the knees.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
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Not to forget the failed hit on May Chidiac. Its generally accepted the Syrians did that one too.
Posted by: Purple Avenger at November 22, 2006 04:25 PM (wfN0Q)
2
I've spent more than a year in Iraq since 2003, in several trips as a (retired military) contractor, most recently I left in May of this year.
This is a dumb idea.
It involves both overstating and understating the Iranian threat.
Overstating to justify an attack on a country which cooperated with us in Afghanistan, and has shown a willingness to have some kind of dialogue. Their desire to get a nuclear weapon is rational if you look at the threatening rhetoric the US puts out (Axis of Evil) and see how 2 members of the Axis were treated: powerless Iraq invaded, nuke-armed North Korea left alone. It also overstates Ahmedinajad's power and underestimates the power of deterrence.
Understating to the degree to which the Iranians now permeate the south of Iraq and their influence in the government in Baghdad is very strong. Advisors talk about the outright Iranian domination of some Iraqi ministries, especially the Interior Ministry. Iranian intelligence and special forces advise and equip the Mahdi Army, Badr Corps and other Shia militias. The Iranians have public offices in southern Iraqi cities like Basra. Persian is spoken openly in the south by these Iranian agents hanging about in government offices.
As one Iraqi friend told me "The Iranians have 130,000 American hostages in Iraq now."
However much you bombed Iran, the Iranians and their proxies would make life unbearable for the USA in Iraq, and possibly cause a historic debacle. The USA does not have the reserves to handle the full-scale conflict which could result, and could be humiliated if the Chinese and Russians stepped in.
This is the kind of stupidity that comes from people with no military experience or experience in the region. Morons.
Posted by: observer 5 at November 23, 2006 05:15 PM (A/j9n)
3
The USA does not have the reserves to handle the full-scale conflict which could result
Armies don't run on thin air. What is going to fuel the Iranian forces once the pumps run dry?
Posted by: Purple Avenger at November 24, 2006 01:09 AM (wfN0Q)
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November 21, 2006
What Do Muslims Have in Common With Democrats?
Even death does not stop people from converting:
Shahin of the Tucson Islamic Center said more than 1,200 Muslims died in the World Trade Center catastrophe, and no genuine member of Islam would do such a thing.
So, almost half of those killed in New York on 9/11 were Muslims? Neat trick, since Muslims are just
0.6% of the U.S. population.
Oh, and Omar Shahin, the idiot that uttered this? He was one of the six imams
booted from a flight at Minneapolis-St. Paul International Airport last night.
Praise be to Allah.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
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I do not believe those statistics. If there are over a half million Muslims, exclusive of diplomats, tourists and foreign students, I would be appalled. Even in the local college district, I hardly ever get a chance to sneer at costumed crackpots.
Posted by: Bleepless at November 22, 2006 09:25 PM (f3vh+)
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Crude Messages
As you probably already know by now, the political story of the day is that another Lebanese politician has been assassinated.
Lebanon’s industry minister Pierre Gemayel was driving in Jdeideh when he was boxed in by two cars. the first slammed on its brakes causing Gemayel to crash into it, while the second car pinned Gemayla's vehicle from behind. Gunmen fired a minimum of
14 shots.
Like
Rafik Hariri who was assassinated in a car bombing on February 14, 2005, Pierre Gemayel was anti-Syrian.
Reaction:
Wael Abu Faour, an anti-Syrian lawmaker, told Al-Jazeera, "We directly accuse the Syrian regime of assassinating Gemayel and hold (Syrian) President Bashar Assad responsible for this assassination ... aimed at sending Lebanon into a civil war."
In an interview with CNN, Saad Hariri, Rafik's son and leader of the anti-Syrian parliamentary majority, implicitly blamed Damascus, saying, "We believe the hand of Syria is all over the place." He said Gemayel was "a friend, a brother to all of us" and appeared to break down after saying: "we will bring justice to all those who killed him."
Gemayel's death came hours before a deadline for the U.N. Security Council to approve a letter endorsing an agreement with Lebanon to create a tribunal to prosecute Rafik Hariri's suspected killers.
It is suspected that top officials in the Syrian government, perhaps even Syrian dictator Bashar Assad himself, may be implicated in ordering Hariri's 2005 murder.
While any assassination of an anti-Syrian politician in Lebanon is suspicious, the timing of the Gemayel murder is incredibly explosive, and perhaps that was the intention.
In addition to the implicit warning the assassination sends to those who would endorse the U.N. tribunal, the murder comes
just days before planned Hezbollah protests aimed at toppling the Lebanese government. The government could also be toppled with the death or resignation of one more minister of the Lebanese cabinet. As Michael Totten
notes, "Looks like the coup d'etat is in progress." Indeed,
an attempt was made on the life of Michel Pharaon, the minister of state from parliamentary affairs just hours before Gemayel's murder.
The U.S government had only
recently accused Syria and Iran of plotting to overthrow the Lebanese government, and a U.S. State Department official, Nicholas Burns, stated, "We will give full support to the Saniora government in the days and weeks ahead."
This begs the question: what kind of support does the United States have to offer a Lebanese government on the brink of collapse?
Note: As always, Allahpundit provides the
roundup.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
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Unseasonably Cruel
And thus is the human cost of hatred.
A joint
U.S. Iraqi raid into the Sadr City slums of Muqtada al-Sadr's Mahdi Army led to a firefight between coalition forces and Mahdi Army militiamen. The fighting was intense enough that an air strike was called in on a building from which the militiamen were firing, leading to the deaths of this boy's younger brother and two others, the wounding of 15, and the capture of 7 militiamen,
one of which is believed to have taken part in the kidnapping of a still-missing American soldier.
The Mahdi Army is one of the most active factions in the on-going sectarian violence in Baghdad, responsible for the kidnapping, torture, and murder of hundreds (if not thousands) of Iraqi Sunnis. The militiamen--likely his own relatives considering the fact that Iraqis tend to live in family compounds--attempted to use his home as a bunker. Of course, that doesn't matter to this child. He only knows that his baby brother is dead.
It's easy to sling blame around.
He and the rest of his family will likely grow up hating the United States and the Iraqi government troops that participated in this raid. It is highly unlikely that they will acknowledge their own far greater culpability.
Their neighborhood was raided because coalition forces were acting on intelligence that kidnappers and murderous thugs lived there, and these same thugs--perhaps his own father, brothers, uncles, or cousins--likely kidnapped, tortured and murdered fellow Iraqis, and then were daft enough to try to fight coalition forces from a home with children inside. While U.S. air support pulled the trigger on the munitions that killed his brother, the militiamen in their midst, firing at U.S. and Iraqi forces, caused that trigger to be pulled. They can add their own young relative to their body count. They will not stop for a second to think about the fact that they have likely caused the same trauma in loss in Sunni families just blocks or miles away.
Compounding the loss and magnifying the lessons unlearned are fellow Shiites like legislator Saleh Al-Ukailli.
"I am suspending my membership in parliament since it remains silent about crimes such as this against the Iraqi people," legislator Saleh Al-Ukailli told reporters outside the Imam Ali Hospital. "I will not return to parliament until the occupation troops leave the country."
Al-Ukailli is one of 30 legislators in Iraq's 275-member parliament who follow Muqtada al-Sadr, the anti-American Shiite cleric whose main offices are in Sadr City.
Al-Ukailli could care less about "crimes... against the Iraqi people."
Like far too many Sadr loyalists in the Iraqi government, he seems to harbor no concerns about the crimes his fellow Shia perpetrate, and only professes outrage once they are forced to account for their own depravity. Left to their own devices, such men would continue to turn a blind eye to the slaughter of Sunnis and Kurds, as long as it suits his purpose. I have little doubt that men such as Al-Ukailli turn a blind eye when Sunni children have their fathers and brothers slaughtered. They are democratically elected, but still do not understand democracy, nor freedom, nor compromise.
* * *
And so here in America, over broadband networks in climate-controlled comfort, in a far more stable environment, we still carp over why we went to war, and when we should leave, and whether or not the cost
we are paying as a nation is too high. We see things all too often through our own warped prisms, playing politics as children die.
"We caused this! Out of Iraq NOW!"
This is the cry I hear from many, every day, from both the political left which feels we never should have been there, and from moderates and many of those on the right who now feel our continued presence is a mistake. Our costs--
1.7 lives a day--are too much for our mercilessly civilized post-modern sensibilities.
And yet we know the ugly secret, don't we?
We know that for every tragic loss of an American soldier, sailor, airman or marine in Iraq, Iraqi soldiers, policemen, and civilians pay a far higher price. We know that comparatively, our costs are few.
In a nation under severe internal strife, brave men in Iraq still show up at recruiting stations to become policemen and soldiers. They have nowhere to return to, nowhere to run, and have a simple choice; become a victor, or become a victim. In Ramadi, the capital of the al-Anbar province and long a stronghold of Sunni insurgents and al Qaeda terrorists, the
Sahawa, or the Awakening, has come. Sunni tribesmen formerly allied with the insurgency are
swelling police ranks, capturing and killing foreign terrorists and native-born anti-Iraqi forces alike. In Ramadi, it appears the Iraqis have shed enough blood to appreciate and crave both stability and freedom. It is slow going, but progress is being made day by day.
Will we eventually see that same yearning for stability, freedom, and peace in a far more complex Baghdad? History tells us that all wars eventually end as a matter of will or a matter of eradication. One side must either be utterly destroyed, or its will to fight must be. This is equally true in both conventional and asymmetrical warfare, one of which the U.S. military has won convincingly in Iraq, and the other, which must eventually be won or lost by the Iraqi people themselves.
The purpose of U.S. forces in Iraq
is not to conclusively defeat the various anti-Iraqi factions, but to provide training and material support to Iraqi government forces so that they can win the war. At the same time, we seek to destabilize anti-Iraqi forces and help to provide an environment where political and social change can take root, as we are now seeing in Ramadi and elsewhere.
Our military does not need to "
go big" in Iraq, but it does need to "go long," one of the things the Bush Administration has called correctly. We do not need more troops, but we need to utilize the soldiers we do have to train Iraqi forces and provide support for them as necessary in "the long war" to stamp out the insurgency by breaking the enemy's will to fight over time.
Part of that support will be engaging in raids that will on occasion lead to civilian deaths, especially when these civilians harbor anti-Iraqi forces of various stripes. If we don't mature enough to accept the fact that some innocents die in war, then the abandonment policy favored by some will certainly lead to far more civilian deaths through a far more violent civil war and a potential genocide. You can pay a blood debt of comparatively few lives now by continuing the mission, or set the stage for an even bloodier Iraqi future by withdrawing.
This is a cold, hard fact that few on the left will address or even admit. War is cruel by nature, but to abandon an ally while the conflict rages would be the cruelest atrocity of all.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
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So just now we are figuring out when you occupy a foriegn country for a long period of time that a lot of the people will begin to hate the occupiers? It is a strange thing about the Bush Administration and many of its backers that even though they are nationalistic themselves and would resent (to understate it) large number of troops from a foreign country occupying the U.S. to impose a government on Americans, they can't seem to comprehend that people in other countries might be also resent the presence of large numbers of occupying soldiers from America supporting a government that America prefers.
This is not to say that it is right that large number of Iraqis resent American soldiers or that the new American supported government is not better than the old, just that it is a very predictable part of human nature that this would happen. But despite the fact it was obvious, Bush managed to overlook it, both in deciding to go to war in the first place and then in deciding how difficult it would be to control the country.
Posted by: Counterfactual at November 21, 2006 12:58 PM (dPxga)
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I read some of the Iraqi blogs and I do get a sense that some of the Iraqis resent our being there, but the resentment is directed as much toward themselves for not being able to 'get it together', in other words, because they need us.
And as they do need us, and as it appears more of them are willing to knuckle under and align with the goal of independence, we need to stay.
The next time I hear about how we need to 'redeploy', I'll need to get an answer to the questions of when we're getting out of Bosnia and whatever could be the reason for going to Darfur. These situations seem to mirror Iraq in some respects save the most vital to me: where is our national interest in Bosnia and Darfur, as opposed to Iraq?
Posted by: Cindi at November 21, 2006 02:11 PM (asVsU)
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So just now we are figuring out when you occupy a foriegn country for a long period of time that a lot of the people will begin to hate the occupiers?
A few years is a "long time"?
The Romans got away with it for hundreds of years. Of course their methods of squelching the whiners were somewhat more extreme than ours.
Posted by: Purple Avenger at November 21, 2006 02:33 PM (wfN0Q)
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Funny how the Iraqis show their "resentment" "towards the occupiers", fact-boy.
By slaughtering 10s of thousands of women and children with carbombs, by destroying holy mosques, by assassinating politicians, scientists, intellectuals and dissenting religious figures, by kidnapping, torturing and murdering thousands of police, etc.
Its got nothing to do with the occupation, fact boy.
It never did.
Its about filling the vacuum.
Posted by: TMF at November 21, 2006 02:48 PM (+BgNZ)
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"Abandon an ally"? The Iraqi government won't let us go after Al Sadr's thugs in a serious way and tells us to turn them loose when we apprehend one. Looks to me like our "ally" has abandoned us. As in Korea and Vietnam, we are pulling our military punches for political reasons. If that's what the rest of this war is going to be like, we should leave now. Staying just gets more of our guys killed and only postpones the inevitable bloodbath when we leave.
Posted by: Alan Gunn at November 21, 2006 04:46 PM (aHfbX)
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Oh, here's another fact: "then were daft enough to try to fight coalition forces from a home with children inside." Fighting hidden among a civilian population to discourage response because of civilian deaths is called perfidy. It is defined by the Geneva Conventions as a war crime.
Posted by: SDN at November 21, 2006 11:35 PM (FTci1)
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Final Destination
Deja vu, all over again:
Six passengers were removed from a departing flight Monday at Minneapolis-St. Paul International Airport and were taken for questioning by police, an airport spokesman said.
The passengers were boarding US Airways Flight 300, bound for Phoenix, around 6:30 p.m. when crew members "saw suspicious activity" by the men and called airport police, said the spokesman, Pat Hogan. Police escorted the men off the plane and took them to be questioned, he said.
A passenger initially raised concerns about the group through a note passed to a flight attendant, said Andrea Rader, a spokeswoman for US Airways. Police were called after the men refused requests by the captain and airport security workers to leave the plane.
The crew described the men as Middle Eastern in appearance, Hogan said, though he didn't immediately know where they were from.
This came just days after
Sisayehiticha Dinssa was arrested at Detroit Metropolitan Airport with $79,000 in cash and a computer containing information about nuclear materials and cyanide. He was also traveling to Phoenix.
What might all these suspicious characters be headed for Phoenix?
Old habits die hard.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
01:13 AM
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FYI, when you click-thru on the "Old habits" link, the Arizona Monthly article link appears to have expired (the post, my second ever, is over two years old). Chalk it up to link rot.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at November 21, 2006 10:20 AM (g5Nba)
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That's odd, CY, because I was able to read the link this morning (about 6:30 EST).
Posted by: MikeM at November 21, 2006 01:02 PM (xWG/i)
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Oops, my mistake. I missed that you were talking about the link in the linked post. "Nevermind."
Posted by: MikeM at November 21, 2006 01:06 PM (xWG/i)
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These guys apparently did nothing except engage in their required daily prayer at one of the required daily times.
Posted by: Doc Washboard at November 21, 2006 05:15 PM (4XLP6)
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CY, here's what I found at the link you put up:
"They (the CIA) called [bin Laden] a 'freedom fighter,'" Sahin [one of the imams in question] said. "Then they tell us he is involved in terrorist acts, and they stopped supporting him, and we stopped."
The passenger who turned them in and the security guards who yanked them off the flight didn't do these things because they used to support bin Laden. They did it because the guys were praying. Also, they were looking all Middle Eastern and whatnot.
Posted by: Doc Washboard at November 21, 2006 07:41 PM (4XLP6)
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It's nice to know that there is an airline that takes passenger's concerns seriously. The Imams had to know that their behavior would be troubling to the other passengers.
Either they did it purposefully to frighten people or they just didn't think their strange behavior would cause a stir.
From what I have read at Powerline there is much more to the story than a simple prayer. This makes me think of the old Glenn Campbell song, By the Time I Get to Phoenix We'll Have Jihad.
Posted by: Laura Lee Donoho at November 22, 2006 01:34 AM (X8WNH)
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They're probing defenses.
Posted by: Purple Avenger at November 22, 2006 04:19 AM (wfN0Q)
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Leftist Nut Declares Himself President
Interestingly enough, unemployed Latin American studies professors are a big part of the leftist base in this country, as well.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
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Guy is a poser. I'm the real president of Mexico.
Posted by: Purple Avenger at November 21, 2006 04:44 AM (wfN0Q)
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I bet Algore is wishing he had thought of doing it first. ;-)
Posted by: MikeM at November 21, 2006 01:04 PM (xWG/i)
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November 20, 2006
Charlie Rangel's Botched Joke
The furor and continued non-apology over John Kerry's "stuck in Iraq" comment have just subsided, and now New York Democrat Charles Rangel attempts to leverage an equally insulting draft recommendation in an attempt to raise an anti-war cry, using a call for compulsory service in the U.S. military as a wedge issue:
Rep. Charles B. Rangel (D-N.Y.) has long advocated returning to the draft, but his efforts drew little attention during the 12 years that House Democrats were in the minority. Starting in January, however, he will chair the tax-writing Ways and Means Committee. Yesterday he said "you bet your life" he will renew his drive for a draft.
"I will be introducing that bill as soon as we start the new session," Rangel said on CBS's "Face the Nation." He portrayed the draft, suspended since 1973, as a means of spreading military obligations more equitably and prompting political leaders to think twice before starting wars.
"There's no question in my mind that this president and this administration would never have invaded Iraq, especially on the flimsy evidence that was presented to the Congress, if indeed we had a draft and members of Congress and the administration thought that their kids from their communities would be placed in harm's way," said Rangel, a Korean War veteran. "If we're going to challenge Iran and challenge North Korea and then, as some people have asked, to send more troops to Iraq, we can't do that without a draft."
Lets be very, very clear: Charles Rangel doesn't give a damn about the "equitably" of service in our nation's military, which to date, is over-represented by soldiers who are
more rural, wealthy, and better educated than their peers. He instead
clings to often disproven lies that the military is disproportionately made up of minorities and the poor.
Rangel willingly lies, but lies with a purpose.
What doubtlessly disappoints Mr. Rangel is that though Americans do not support the direction of the War in Iraq (as was evidenced in the recent election), they have refused to engage in the massive protests and demonstrations that were key to the anti-war campaign during the Vietnam era. Rangel's primary goal in his call to reinstate the draft is to gin up protests like those of 30 years ago.
Rangel's tactics are particularly loathsome in that he seeks to use our all-volunteer military as the whipping boy for his anti-war politics. He would attempt to pit draft-age Americans and their family members against those who honorably joined the military of their own volition.
I have nothing but contempt for Rangel's transparent demagoguery. He does not wish to strengthen America's proud all-volunteer military, but instead seeks to lessen its will, against its wishes, and against its needs.
Rangel's call to reinstate the draft is cynical, unwanted, and like Kerry's comments before, a back-handed slap at those who serve our nation of their own free will.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
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Don't question the ability of conscripted soldiers to serve their country in front of Charlie. He was drafted to fight in Korea and, therefore, has ABSOLUTE MORAL AUTHORITY. It scares me to no end that this man will soon hold the purse strings to operational funding for our troops in Iraq and Afganistan. Would someone this cynical and self-serving cut off funding to our troops in battle, just to forward his political agenda? You bet he would.
Posted by: BohicaTwentyTwo at November 20, 2006 01:03 PM (oC8nQ)
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Bend over here it comes again? You mean the mischaracterizations?
Posted by: Fred at November 20, 2006 02:06 PM (jSBbA)
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It's a characteristic of the left everywhere to bend everything to their use and abandon these things when they are of no use to anyone.
This is an attempt to bend the military to their political goals no matter what the damage to the military.
I was in the Army in the mid seventies when the transition was being made to an all volunteer force. This was a Good Thing. We have a much better Army today.
Posted by: Lee at November 20, 2006 03:02 PM (s5nUf)
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Fred, we can hope for the best out of Congress for the next two years, but its the troops on the ground who are really going to get it in the end. (pun intended)
Posted by: BohicaTwentyTwo at November 20, 2006 03:25 PM (oC8nQ)
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"This is an attempt to bend the military to their political goals no matter what the damage to the military."
Funny I thought you were talking about St. McCain there...where are those 20,000 troops going to come from again?
Posted by: Fred at November 20, 2006 04:28 PM (jSBbA)
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Is there an MRI on file somewhere that proves Charlie Rangel has a brain?
There is no doubt in anyone's mind who has served in the Army that included conscripts and the Army of volunteers that the all volunteer force is head and shoulders above in professionalism and lethality. That is not to say that many conscripts were great soldiers, but far too many were not. Let the days of the conscripted Army remain in the past so long as volunteers continue to step forward.
Rangel says he doubts there would be war if "members of Congress and the administration thought their kids from their communities would be placed in harm's way." Did that stop Truman from sending Charlie? Don't the representatives and senators represent the kids from their districts/states whether or not they are kin?
Give me a break, Charlie... I was born at night, but not last night!
Posted by: Old Soldier at November 20, 2006 05:34 PM (owAN1)
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Ok the Democrats are fast on there way to defining Moonbat to everyone in the country.
Last time Rangel tried this he got 2 votes but this time
he'll get 4. And in doing so further fragment the Democratic party.
Ok Dems you won now lets see your hand.
Posted by: NortonPete at November 20, 2006 05:55 PM (fVuwW)
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Wake up 'Fred', the military has more than the 150,000 troops in Iraq. If they don't then you had better bend over for real. Some banana republic will attack and take over the United States.
The Militay is streatched too thin was only a campaign rant by the Anti-American left (aka Democrats), and no where close to the truth. Haven't you figured out yet that you were lied to by the dim's?
Anyone with half a brain (which is more than Rangel) has figured this out in two weeks of watching the 'winners' that someone screwed up big time by electing the unqualified to lead. So far it's been real good for the comedian's, but bad for everyone else.
It's been more than a laugh a day and i'm looking forward to two years of comedy. It does make a person feel good to laugh at the stupidity displayed so far by the dim's.
Posted by: Scrapiron at November 20, 2006 06:25 PM (Eodj2)
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"The Militay[sic] is streatched [sic] too thin was only a campaign rant by the Anti-American left (aka Democrats)"
Posted by: Fred at November 20, 2006 08:00 PM (jSBbA)
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Then explain McCain's Statement.
From where I sit I know the component of the military I serve in is stretched thinner than ever. Me, I'm with Rangle; maybe or maybe not for the same reasons. I just think it's ever able body persons obligation to serve, especially if they want to claim Government benefits like Pell Grants and the like.
If you think this last two weeks has been a disaster for the Democratic Party, you need to go back and examine what happened when the Republicans took over in the mid-90's. They too had a leadership battle in which Newt Gingrich, as Speaker of the House, backed a losing candidate for Majority Leader. As for Rangle bringing up a Bill he knows has no chance of passing, see Republican Flag Burning and Gay Marriage Amendments.
P.S. Commenting has been hell today, CY.
Posted by: Fred at November 20, 2006 08:22 PM (jSBbA)
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Good Job CY. Needed to be said.
Posted by: brando at November 20, 2006 10:21 PM (K+VjK)
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The pinko hate-America-first cabal has penetrated the upper echelons of the military:
Retired General Barry McCaffrey:
“The country is not at war. The United States armed forces and the CIA are at war. So we are asking our military to sustain a level of effort that we have not resourced,” he told Army Times.
“That’s how to break the Army is to keep it deployed above the rate at which it can be sustained,” he said. “There’s no free lunch here. The Army and the Marine Corps and Special Operations Command are too small and badly resourced to carry out this national security strategy.”
Retired General William Odom:
"Our leaders do not act because their reputations are at stake. The public does not force them to act because it is blinded by the president's conjured set of illusions: that we are reducing terrorism by fighting in Iraq, creating democracy there, preventing the spread of nuclear weapons, making Israel more secure, not allowing our fallen soldiers to have died in vain, and others.
"But reality no longer can be avoided. It is beyond U.S. power to prevent sectarian violence in Iraq, the growing influence of Iran throughout the region, the probable spread of Sunni-Shiite strife to neighboring Arab states, the eventual rise to power of the anti-American cleric Muqtada al-Sadr or some other anti-American leader in Baghdad, and the spread of instability beyond Iraq.
"These realities get worse every day that our forces remain in Iraq. They can't be wished away by clever diplomacy or by leaving our forces in Iraq for several more years.
=========================
I for one will shake your hand sincerely when you leave Clown World. It's not so hard as you think.
Posted by: Earl at November 21, 2006 12:43 AM (Y9zdM)
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Brando! We meet again. I have a sort of riddle for you:
If you volunteer to ride in a PT boat while Viet Cong are firing at you, and come home decorated and lauded, you have not acted dishonorably.
If you come to believe that a war is unjust, you owe it to your country to speak out. Further points if history exonerates your belief, eg Viet Nam is a vibrant capitalist state and never imposed a communist threat to anyone, thereby demonstrating that our soldiers did in fact die in vain.
If someone then accuses you of "hating our troops" -- well, what would you call such a person?
Don't give me any "oh he didn't actually go to Cambodia" crap, whatever the minutia, this story is true. Honestly I don't much want Kerry as my president. Nevertheless it is treacherous and supremely unpatriotic to smear his name in this way.
Posted by: Earl at November 21, 2006 12:56 AM (Y9zdM)
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I just think it's ever able body persons obligation to serve, especially if they want to claim Government benefits like Pell Grants and the like.
Or voice an opinion that has "moral authority"?
Two years swabbing latrines will certainly make most potheads military experts ;->
Posted by: Purple Avenger at November 21, 2006 02:42 AM (wfN0Q)
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Posted by Earl at November 21, 2006 12:56 AM
Hmm, riddle huh?
If you come home and call all your compatriots 'Baby Killers' and 'Murderers' saying they were incompetent (not the leaders, the men on the ground).
If years later you say almost the same thing and then say the men and women who fail to get educated go to iraq,
THEN you have acted dishonorably.
His service did not disqualify him, his actions after did.
Posted by: Retired Navy at November 21, 2006 06:13 AM (y67bA)
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I just think it's ever able body persons obligation to serve, especially if they want to claim Government benefits like Pell Grants and the like
Posted by Fred at November 20, 2006 08:22 PM
At what cost Fred? Lets be generous and say 10% of the people graduating every year join the military. What is the budget for the payroll alone?
Now multiply that by a factor of 10. Throw in the cost of buildings and housing, medical, dental, transportation, increased heating, electric, gas, supplies, etc...
Then take a look at how many loosers will be coming in, what it will take to discharge them, bogging down the system and giving a whole lot of people that just weren't cut out for military life a black mark by giving them the 'Big Chicken Dinner' (bad conduct discharge) they would not have otherwise have gotten.
It didn't work then and it won't work now.
Posted by: Retired Navy at November 21, 2006 06:18 AM (BuYeH)
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Retired Navy,
I can see your points, and I respect your opinion. It's kinda funny we're arguing over a bill that's never going to be passed anyways. It be nice if there was some way we could get more young people to serve. Maybe a saner foreign policy would be a start.
Purple Avenger,
Two years swabbing latrines will certainly make most potheads military experts ;->
Actually I'm half way to retirement and the task force I serve on in the Guard deals more with the War on Terrorism in real life than any of the chatterers 'round here. Nice "pothead" zing, be sure to rotate in there pinko/commie/fag/hippie, let us all know how series a thinker you are.
Posted by: Fred at November 21, 2006 07:28 AM (jSBbA)
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Retired Navy:
Can you cite me where he said "baby killers"? Don't give me the 'well known' answer, it's well known only in your echo chamber.
Anyway, be that as it may, actions speak louder than words, and thus his actions were honorable.
It's just ridiculous that you would think Kerry dislikes the troops, and made a joke at their expense recently. You know perfectly well he meant Bush is bogged down in Iraq.
You're delousional.
Posted by: Earl at November 21, 2006 11:37 AM (Y9zdM)
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It's just ridiculous that you would think Kerry dislikes the troops, and made a joke at their expense recently. You know perfectly well he meant Bush is bogged down in Iraq.
Really? Is that why Kerry said in 1972:
They told the stories at times they had personally raped, cut off ears, cut off heads, taped wires from portable telephones to human genitals and turned up the power, cut off limbs, blown up bodies, randomly shot at civilians, razed villages in fashion reminiscent of Genghis Khan, shot cattle and dogs for fun, poisoned food stocks, and generally ravaged the countryside of South Vietnam in addition to the normal ravage of war, and the normal and very particular ravaging which is done by the applied bombing power of this country.
He directly accused U.S. soldiers of being rapists, mutilators, torturers, sadists and murderers (did I miss anything?) based upon the false testimony of men who, in some cases, were never in the military.
More recently, he issues a "I'm sorry you are too stupid to understand what I meant" non-apology, and to add insult to injury, had the unmitigated gall to run on his web site an editorial about the comment that said "Kerry's Remark: Right either way."
Right either way. Yeah. He's real sorry.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at November 21, 2006 12:02 PM (g5Nba)
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deals more with the War on Terrorism in real life than any of the chatterers 'round here.
Sorry I was mundane 70's Carter era Cold War RA Fred. I wasn't aware cold war "doesn't count" anymore in the eyes of the left.
Thanks for the crypto-PC update on our status.
Posted by: Purple Avenger at November 21, 2006 12:22 PM (wfN0Q)
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You're delousional.
Posted by Earl at November 21, 2006 11:37 AM
Ok, I'll agree he didn't say "Baby Killers".
But look at CY's post above.
You are the one who is delusional. He has hated the military since he was in it.
Posted by: Retired Navy at November 21, 2006 01:12 PM (nFSnk)
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CY: those are atrocious acts, and he would be immoral not to cover them up. "Supporting the troops" does not equal allowing crime. I guess you saw different when you were there? Oh sorry, you have soccer injuries and you can't serve.
Oh look at this:
http://www.worldpublicopinion.org/pipa/articles/home_page/275.php?nid=&id=&pnt=275&lb=hmpg1
74% of Shiites and 91% of Sunnis want us to leave Iraq within a year. All we need to do is stay the course and everything will come out right. Right?
How's the weather there in Clown World?
The jig's up CY. You're either going to suck it up and leave Clown World or spend the rest of your life lying to yourself pretending like the pinko Democrats spoiled your perfect war, just like 'Nam.
Say, what was the point of Nam by the way? To prevent communism from spreading like wildfire, was it not?
Posted by: Earl at November 21, 2006 05:07 PM (Y9zdM)
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Bah. I meant immoral TO cover them up.
Posted by: Earl at November 21, 2006 05:08 PM (Y9zdM)
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Say, what was the point of Nam by the way?
At the end it was to prevent the impending slaughter of millions. Alas, the democrats sealed their fate and ~3 million died as a result.
Makes you proud doesn't it Earl. I imagine that 3M figure could easily be topped in Iraq.
Posted by: Purple Avenger at November 22, 2006 12:34 AM (wfN0Q)
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No, the point of VietNam was to prevent the spread of communism throughout Asia. Perhaps you should read Wikipedia or some place about the Gulf on Tonkin. The perpetrators instigated a war they couldn't finish on a bogus pretext. Hey, that sounds familiar doesn't it? But of course, your view is that we just didn't stay in VietNam long enough, the same way you'll feel when we leave Iraq humiliated. In Clown World, everything bad is Carter or Clinton or Kerry or the Democrat's fault, whereas all things good emanate from the GOP. It must be nice to give that brain a nice long vacation...
Posted by: Earl at November 22, 2006 01:55 AM (Y9zdM)
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3,000,000 dead Earl. Their blood is all over democrat hands.
Spin all you want, but the body count was real and directly attributable to a feckless democrat congress in 1975.
Even Carter had to recognize the gruesome result and start admitting the boat people.
Posted by: Purple Avenger at November 22, 2006 02:16 AM (wfN0Q)
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And Earl is proven wrong once again. Take Monty Python's advice from the Holy Grail Earl - Run away! Run Away!
Oh - of course you are speaking of the Domino Theory? Or maybe it was the theory that Viet Nam was a testing ground for both Soviet and American military tactics. Or maybe we were there because the French (who RAN AWAY) asked us for help. Don't rely too much on Wiki Earl - lots of bad stuff there - make sure you corroborate Crusty-the-Earl.
BTW Earl - be sure to go back to the other thread - I tore you a new one again.
Posted by: Specter at November 22, 2006 05:51 PM (ybfXM)
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And Earl - the reason we didn't win in Viet Nam - Could it have anything to do with the fact that MacNamara tied the hands of the troops - would not let them do anything without DC's permission? Got another Crusty-the-Earl theory on that? This is such good entertainment....
Posted by: Specter at November 22, 2006 05:53 PM (ybfXM)
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You boneheads. Both cases: war foisted on false premises, then spins out of control, the leaders propose plan after plan which fall flat, yet until the end you are waving your pompoms and talking about how even though the war is not at all what it was started for, we have to win. Another poll showed that Shia and Sunni alike want us out, and by great margins.
Then because almost everybody believes Nam and Iraq to be disasters, you retreat into your yurts of delusion where the the media et al is feeding disinformation. Nobody believes anymore that we should have stayed in Nam except you fringe elements in Clown World who don't matter much anymore anyway. Similarly, even the architects of Iraq like Perle and Adelman are in CYA mode, and yet you think "oh if only we'd support the troops and make one more bombing sortie we will emerge victorious and the sunni and shias will kiss and form a vibrant democracy".
Really, try stepping out of Clown World. It's not too bad.
Posted by: Earl at November 23, 2006 01:35 AM (Y9zdM)
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What Earl, no facts again? just empty rhetoric based on your POV. Good....Where's the Dems plan man? LOL. You voted 'em in. Good luck with that. They are just like you - lots of talk and no action. Lots of talk and no balls - just like your Crusty-the-Earl. You get shot down every time you post and you keep coming back for more. You sure fit the definition of troll though. LOL.
Posted by: Specter at November 23, 2006 04:49 PM (ybfXM)
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war foisted on false premises
Are you on drugs?
Vietnam went down, Cambodia followed (3M dead total), the Soviet saw its opportunity and moved on Afghanistan, then we went on to have a decade of problems in central America because the Soviet knew it was OK to push harder now and the Americans wouldn't resist too hard.
The domino theory was real. If their economic basis wasn't so screwed propelling the collapse we'd really be in deep do-do right now. We got lucky.
Posted by: Purple Avenger at November 24, 2006 01:16 AM (wfN0Q)
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Advocating Assured Destruction
It appears Jules Crittenden agrees with the general theory I wrote about Friday in Another Direction , where I advocated making Iran and Syria "feel the pain" for being active state sponsors of terrorism. Crittenden writes:
An erroneous assumption has been made by the Iranians and by many in the west that because our ground forces are hyper-extended in Iraq, and Iranian nuke facilities are buried deep, there is nothing the United States can do about an Iranian nuclear program. This is not true. There is no need to invade or occupy Iran. We do not want to do that. We would prefer to see the Iranian people's desire for free elections honored, but that doesn't appear likely any time soon.
What we have to do to influence Iran is explain that if Iran does not begin to cooperate with the international community, we will substantially isolate Iran and destroy its means of supporting terrorism and pursuing nuclear weapons. This can be done incrementally, to give the Iranians an opportunity to reconsider their policy. Our Navy, not hyper-extended in Iraq, can blockade their ports. Our Air Force, also not hyper-extended in Iraq, can begin reducing their terrorist-support infrastructure. Things like oil fields, refineries and roads leading toward Syria and suspected nuclear sites. This can continue ... pretty much as long as the Iranians want it too.
While I didn't specify it, it was primarily U.S. Air Force and Naval air power I had in mind when I advocated the reduction of Iran's naval and marine forces. Single strikes with precision munitions could destroy their few corvettes and frigates (their three destroyers are so useless they aren't worth wasting bombs on), and their remaining fleet, which is composed of patrol boats and number small craft, would be easily destroyed with cluster munitions. Only their small marine outposts near the Straits of Hormuz may require SpecOps insertions, and that is purely speculative. Air power alone may suffice.
The other targets, the oil fields, refineries, roads, and nuclear sites, are clearly air power targets that Iran is nearly defenseless against, even with the purchase of the low-to-medium altitude TOR-1 SAMs from Russia.
I've said it before and I will say it again and again because it bears repeating: terrorism will only be supported by states for as long as they see it as a cost-effective way to achieve their foreign policy goals. When the cost of supporting terrorism becomes too high, the state support of terrorism will cease or be greatly curtailed, making it far more difficult for terrorist groups in Iraq, Lebanon, and Gaza to survive.
Update: I missed this earlier, but even the
L.A. Times is getting on the
bomb Iran bandwagon:
If Tehran establishes dominance in the region, then the battlefield might move to Southeast Asia or Africa or even parts of Europe, as the mullahs would try to extend their sway over other Muslim peoples. In the end, we would no doubt win, but how long this contest might last and what toll it might take are anyone's guess.
The only way to forestall these frightening developments is by the use of force. Not by invading Iran as we did Iraq, but by an air campaign against Tehran's nuclear facilities. We have considerable information about these facilities; by some estimates they comprise about 1,500 targets. If we hit a large fraction of them in a bombing campaign that might last from a few days to a couple of weeks, we would inflict severe damage. This would not end Iran's weapons program, but it would certainly delay it.
What should be the timing of such an attack? If we did it next year, that would give time for U.N. diplomacy to further reveal its bankruptcy yet would come before Iran will have a bomb in hand (and also before our own presidential campaign). In time, if Tehran persisted, we might have to do it again.
Can President Bush take such action after being humiliated in the congressional elections and with the Iraq war having grown so unpopular? Bush has said that history's judgment on his conduct of the war against terror is more important than the polls. If Ahmadinejad gets his finger on a nuclear trigger, everything Bush has done will be rendered hollow. We will be a lot less safe than we were when Bush took office.
Finally, wouldn't such a U.S. air attack on Iran inflame global anti-Americanism? Wouldn't Iran retaliate in Iraq or by terrorism? Yes, probably. That is the price we would pay. But the alternative is worse.
After the Bolshevik takeover of Russia in 1917, a single member of Britain's Cabinet, Winston Churchill, appealed for robust military intervention to crush the new regime. His colleagues weighed the costs — the loss of soldiers, international derision, revenge by Lenin — and rejected the idea.
The costs were avoided, and instead the world was subjected to the greatest man-made calamities ever. Communism itself was to claim perhaps 100 million lives, and it also gave rise to fascism and Nazism, leading to World War II. Ahmadinejad wants to be the new Lenin. Force is the only thing that can stop him.
Are we beginning to detect a theme, folks? Iran will not comply with economic or political pressure, and so the remaining option is military in nature, and that military option is best expresses in an air power war again key Iranian targets.
One thing that these men are leaving out, however, is what may happen as a result of air strikes targeting Iran's nuclear facilities and other infrastructure sites.
Critics of such an attack would point out that as a result, Hezbollah and Hamas would like begin another intense rocket campaign on Israel.
I think this is entirely correct, and entirely beside the point.
Despite all the bluster over Hezbollah's last war with Israel earlier this year, Israel suffered very few casualties. I think the figure was just 157 deaths, most of them soldiers, in Lebanon. In opposition, Hezbollah lost as many
as half of their armed fighters in southern Lebanon, and their infrastructure was wrecked. Hamas and Hezbollah can indeed launch attacks, but the retaliatory strikes from Israel will certainly cause more damage.
More troubling is the thought that an attack on Iran may trigger and Iranian ground invasion of Iraq. Iran has a military of more than 300,000, most of then conscripts, and they have long-range rockets that
may cause significant Iraqi civilian casualties.
That said, any Iranian ground invasion of Iraq would be suicidal for the Iranian troops involved. They have no air cover to speak of, and the invasion would result in a larger scale repeat of 1991's
Highway of Death as they are decimated by U.S. Air Force and U.S. Navy bombers. Such a crushing loss could hurt the mullahcracy, and so even as fanatical as they are, they would most likely not go this route. Iran wages asymmetrical terrorist campaign precisely to avoid the crushing losses their over-hyped military would take on a modern battlefield.
It increasingly appears that our best option for lasting peace in Iraq and the wider Middle East is a conventional air campaign to reduce Iran's asymmetrical warfare capabilities.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
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Posted by: Fred at November 20, 2006 12:25 PM (jSBbA)
2
Still waiting for Fred's alternative approach.
Posted by: Purple Avenger at November 20, 2006 01:24 PM (wfN0Q)
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Wait, are you asking for an argument as to why we shouldn't bomb Iran? War is not the first answer, Purple Avenger, it is the last. It is what happens when all other options have disappeared. Even Raygun recognized this.
If you were waiting for the alternative approach that was asked for the other day, I gave you a reading assignment. I'm not going to condense a book into a sound bite for you lizard brains.
Posted by: Fred at November 20, 2006 01:38 PM (jSBbA)
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Wait, are you asking for an argument as to why we shouldn't bomb Iran? War is not the first answer, Purple Avenger, it is the last. It is what happens when all other options have disappeared. Even Raygun recognized this.
Alternative #1: Bomb Iran.
Alternative #2: "War is not the answer."
#2 is such a clear and well-stated plan for action in dealing with the Iran's nuclear proliferation. Who could possibly disagree with going that route? "War is not the answer." Great answer!
Posted by: MikeZ at November 20, 2006 02:00 PM (c5sWc)
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MikeZ,
Who said "War is not the answer." I didn't. I said war is not the first answer. If we are so worried about nuclear proliferation, then why did we just give the go ahead to India (not a member of the nuclear non-proliferation treaty)?
Posted by: Fred at November 20, 2006 02:14 PM (jSBbA)
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It's not that complicated. There is no desire within the military establishment, the administration or the general population to widen the conflict we find ourselves in. You cannot undue what has been done in Iraq so an attack on Iran is a widening of the conflict.
Posted by: NYNick at November 20, 2006 02:19 PM (vgzEN)
7
You do realize that when the Iranians retaliate in Iraq, they will not conveniently line up on a highway in mass numbers for us to kill them easily don't you? They will infiltrate large numbers of small groups to cooperate with their fellow Shiites in Iraq to take out U.S. patrols while supplying mass quantities of weapons to anti-U.S. Iraqi politicians like Sadr. Since we are barely keeping a lid on the situation in Iraq now, what do you think will happen when the Iranians apply this extra anti-U.S. flame to the pot?
Posted by: Counterfactual at November 20, 2006 04:32 PM (Aat1i)
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They will infiltrate large numbers of small groups
Not if spooky has anything to say about it...
Posted by: Purple Avenger at November 21, 2006 12:27 PM (wfN0Q)
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Who said "War is not the answer." I didn't. I said war is not the first answer. If we are so worried about nuclear proliferation, then why did we just give the go ahead to India (not a member of the nuclear non-proliferation treaty)?
Posted by Fred at November 20, 2006 02:14 PM
If you can't comprehend the difference between India and Iran then really this entire conversations is absurd.
Be that as it may, I'd like to post a question in return. Just when is war a viable answer? Yes, it is not a good first response. But we've gone through years of negotiations, violated agreements, and ignored offers to get to this point.
When was war with Iraq the answer? After all, we had gone through years of cease fire violations, assassinations attempts (by them against our leaders), ignored resolutions, violent repression of Iraqis, blood money paid to Palestinian bombers, on and on and on. And yet, war was not the 'first answer' in Iraq either.
So, given that war should not be the 'first answer', when is it applicable? And the answer 'when Tel Aviv disappears in a mushroom cloud as promised over and over by President Ahmadinejad' is not acceptable on any level.
Posted by: Michael in Colorado at November 21, 2006 05:31 PM (IdAft)
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I've linked to you here: http://consul-at-arms.blogspot.com/2006/11/re-advocating-assured-destruction.html
Posted by: Consul-At-Arms at November 21, 2006 06:10 PM (naelK)
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So, given that war should not be the 'first answer', when is it applicable?
When a democrat president orders it ;->
Posted by: Purple Avenger at November 22, 2006 12:36 AM (wfN0Q)
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November 17, 2006
Another Direction
John Donovan at Argghhh! reposts an email from a Captain in Iraq that understands what it takes to win the war in Iraq (I highly suggest reading the post in its entirety):
Massive firepower brought down on any transgressor is the answer. Sometimes you need to use a sledgehammer to crack a walnut if you want people to pay attention and learn the correct lessons in life. If an IED blows up outside someones house and the homeowners tell you that they don't know anything about, bulldoze the house and salt the ground. After you do that two or three times, Iraqis will shoot the terrorists themselves to protect their homes. I realize that this may not be totally in keeping with some people's concept of "the American way of war", but if we are in it to win it, we need to take all the steps required to totally destroy the terrorists ability to make war on us and turn the population against them. Right now, because of our kid glove approach, there is no threat to the average Iraqi that helps the terrorists or turns a blind eye. We have to make it painful to the point that the Iraqi people say, "These Americans are serious about winning and they won't stop until they have won."
This comment indirectly highlights a current failure of the Bush Administration that I've heard elsewhere; the President has been trying to win in Iraq without committing to really
fighting a war.
Let our soldiers use their massive advantages in firepower, training, and communications to take the fight to the enemy. Quit trying to fight a "nice" war. Such weakness does not result in a victory; to win a war the other side
must realize that they cannot hope to win. It should go without saying, but if the other side doesn't
feel defeated, then it
isn't be defeated. Enable our soldiers to rely on their training and instincts and remove the overly cumbersome rules of engagement that restrict our soldiers to the point they are fighting a defensive war.
Towards that same end, and picking up where I left off in the
previous post, Syria and Iran need to be made to feel the pain for their continued state support of terrorism.
Countries like Iran and Syria support terrorism because the see it as a cost-effective way of projecting foreign policy. We have the capability—economic, political, and military—to make this support extremely counter-productive.
In Syria's case, Assad's regime is particularly vulnerable to economic and political, particularly is Iran is dealt with first.
Iran, with much more strategic importance and a larger and more modern military, is a tough nut to crack, but indeed, one that can be cracked. Orson Scott Card makes a good suggestion when
he mentions taking our Iran's capability to threaten Persian Gulf shipping.
The five ships operating in Iran's Navy—two corvettes and three frigates—are obsolete and barely functional, and are almost only symbolic in value. The 69 patrol craft making up the rest of their fleet stationed at six naval bases are highly vulnerable to air attack. Considering that the Persian Gulf is extremely shallow (averaging a depth of just 50 meters), their few submarines, which only have mine-laying (no torpedo or cruise missile) capability are also little more than targets.
Other Iranian facilities, including naval and marine forces stations at small Iranian-held islands and abandoned oil platforms along international sea lanes, could also be quickly overwhelmed or destroyed.
Break Iran's ability to influence or control the flow of shipping in the Persian Gulf, and you've essentially removed Iran's greatest political bargaining chip outside of their fledgling nuclear program.
Declare to Iran and the world that the destruction of their ersatz fleet was consistent with
Article 51 of the U.N. Charter and in direct response to Iran's supplying the Medhi Army with Iranian-made munitions used to attack U.S forces in Iraq.
Remind Iran that continued support of Shia insurgencies in Iraq would be grounds for further attacks on more vulnerable targets, including Iran's nuclear program.
Iran is far more vulnerable and fragile than it's blustery rhetoric supposes, and it seems time to remind them that the continued support of terrorism does not come without an intolerably high price, and one that we are willing to make them pay.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
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1
CY,
What do you think the Iranians would do if we attacked their facilities? It's not an academic point. The most likely result would be an attack against Israel. Probably along two or even three fronts. They would mobilize Hezzbollah in Lebanon and Syria and could potentially even enlist Egypt to join in. In the end, that may be the best available option, an all out war in the region that definitively settles most of the intractable issues there but it's not something we should consider without also considering the risks. The country would support a war of this kind if it was told the truth about the potential pitfalls.
Posted by: NYNick at November 17, 2006 05:23 PM (vgzEN)
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Last I heard, the Iranians had purchased Kilo class submarines from the Russians.
Since when do those not have torpedo or cruise missile capabilities?
Posted by: SGT Jeff (USAR) at November 17, 2006 05:25 PM (yiMNP)
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The big problem is Europe. They get a HUGE percent of their oil from Iran--and when that flow is cut back (they don't have to stopt the flow completely), that's when the problems begin. The last CRS papers I read, Iran could cut production by almost half and limp through any additional sanctions for at least 8 months--it was estimated that Europe would suffer catastrophic economic failure from such a oil cut in less than three.
As for the subs, he's right, Iran is upgrading and many diesel subs are difficult to find and track when running on batteries (and have the improved screws). If Iran does lay any of those mines, oil spec prices will go through the roof and insurance on the tankers (which few people realize also affects the price of oil).
Even if the government is overthrown (a distinct possibility), the ensuing chaos will hammer the US and Europe for at least six months--quite possibly more--and once again, the same economic problems raise their ugly head.
I agree though, we do need to show a LOT of unhindered force against all of our foes at this point--but I don't think we have the stomach for it and I know Europe doesn't. And even though I could care less what Europe thinks about us, I know our economy will also tank when Europe takes a header off the high dive (though despite all their power-hype, the numbers show that we can survive such a European economic collapse better than the EU itself can). All said, we have painted ourselves into an awful corner that we won't get out of without terrible losses--in more ways than one.
Posted by: WB at November 17, 2006 07:11 PM (7ctfl)
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What do you think the Iranians would do if we attacked their facilities?
What did Saddam do when the Israel leveled Osirak?
Posted by: Purple Avenger at November 17, 2006 10:44 PM (l8HpH)
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Saddam's response? Iraqi scientists Khidir Hamza and Imad Khadduri tell it (from Wikipedia):
"…actually, what Israel [did] is that it got out the immediate danger out of the way. But it created a much larger danger in the longer range. What happened is that Saddam ordered us — we were 400… scientists and technologists running the program. And when they bombed that reactor out, we had also invested $400 million. And the French reactor and the associated plans were from Italy. When they bombed it out we became 7,000 with a $10 billion investment for a secret, much larger underground program to make bomb material by enriching uranium. We dropped the reactor out totally, which was the plutonium for making nuclear weapons, and went directly into enriching uranium… They [Israel] estimated we'd make 7 kg [15 lb] of plutonium a year, which is enough for one bomb. And they get scared and bombed it out. Actually it was much less than this, and it would have taken a much longer time. But the program we built later in secret would make six bombs a year."
Iran would probably react similarly. They would accelerate their nuclear program, decentralize it even further, and take it deeper underground. That, coupled with the myriad of other downsides (unleashing Hezbollah on Israel, ramping up militia attacks on our soldiers in Iraq, etc) make attacking Iran a really unwise idea.
Posted by: Arbotreeist at November 17, 2006 11:56 PM (N8M1W)
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Saddam's response? Iraqi scientists Khidir Hamza and Imad Khadduri tell it...
And what did that response get Saddam?
Its looking like a prison cell, and an invitation to a tall tree with a short rope hanging from it sometime soon.
One Ohio can deal with all of Iran if it ever comes down to it. All it takes is a US president with the stones to know when the gig is up and its time to do it.
Posted by: Purple Avenger at November 18, 2006 04:17 AM (l8HpH)
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"Massive firepower ... is the answer."
- You still haven't got it! (Seems, you ever will) Firepower is the problem, not the solution! In the modern asymmetric wars (not army vs. army, but army vs. insurgents) the defeat of the armies was never caused by the lack of firepower (cf. the French army in Vietnam and Algeria, the US-Army in Vietnam, the British army in Northern Ireland). The more firepower the more support for the insurgents! - Or do you want to terminate the Iraqui population in order to 'liberate' it?
"Sometimes you need to use a sledgehammer to crack a walnut if you want people to pay attention and learn the correct lessons in life. If an IED blows up outside someones house and the homeowners tell you that they don't know anything about, bulldoze the house and salt the ground."
- These people didn't ask you to come to their country! Wouldn't you use IEDs if Iranian tanks roared in the streets of Houston to bring you "freedom"?
Posted by: he at November 18, 2006 11:04 AM (+J+iW)
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Wouldn't you use IEDs if Iranian tanks roared in the streets of Houston to bring you "freedom"?
It would depend on why they were there. Somehow, I suspect it wouldn't be to depose a despised dictator and allow for free elections though.
Posted by: Purple Avenger at November 18, 2006 01:05 PM (l8HpH)
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Excellent suggestions. Good luck finding a US President willing to try any of them.
We don't fight wars like that anymore. we CAN'T. we have lost the political and civic will.
Posted by: Barry at November 18, 2006 06:34 PM (kKjaJ)
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I've linked to you here: http://consul-at-arms.blogspot.com/2006/11/re-another-direction.html
Posted by: Consul-At-Arms at November 18, 2006 06:59 PM (eip9T)
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One Ohio can deal with all of Iran if it ever comes down to it. All it takes is a US president with the stones to know when the gig is up and its time to do it.
Well, I suppose we could fulfill the fantasy of many right wingers and just nuke the entire country, killing millions of people in Iran and neighboring areas. That would sure show 'em.
Posted by: Arbotreeist at November 18, 2006 07:36 PM (N8M1W)
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fulfill the fantasy of many right wingers and just nuke the entire country
I hope it doesn't come to that. I am however willing to entertain the possibility.
So what's your plan should everything else fail? Losing major western cities doesn't seem like a "plan" to me.
Posted by: Purple Avenger at November 18, 2006 08:02 PM (l8HpH)
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Yeah, I kinda hope it doesn't come to that too. All else being equal, I think I'd prefer that we not kill millions of people. God knows the liberal MSM would be yakking on and on about crap like radiation sickness and massive human misery on a biblical scale, and I just don't need waste my beautiful mind listening to that.
Posted by: Arbotreeist at November 18, 2006 08:43 PM (N8M1W)
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Months ago now, some contributor [I'm going on memory here] on NRO's "The Corner" saw what the current slow-motion escalation might ultimately lead to. He said he dared not say the word openly online yet; he called it "the G word." He concluded, "Please, God, let it not come to that."
But I fear it will, because the drastic means necessary to avoid "the G word" are unlikely to be employed even by a Republican U.S. President, certainly not the newly-neutered G.W., let alone any future Democrat. The drastic means required are unlikely to be supported by any future P.M. in the U.K., and would only be supported by the current P.M. in Australia, John Howard, but probably not by any plausible successor.
We could, for example, bomb all of Iran's nuclear sites and half of their oil production facilities, and make the continued existence of the other half of the oil contingent on submission to ruthlessly invasive inspections of any future civilian nuclear facilities.
(For those who fear the economic fallout, consider: That oil will be used as a weapon against us anyway, no matter what. Why not choose our own time to remove Iran's "queen" from the chessboard, instead of waiting for Ahmadinejad and Chavez to prepare their own sudden stoppage? Taking the initiative in this way has psychological advantages as well: Iran has drunk too long from their bottle of "invincibility by petrodollars"; the threat of removing their entire economy from under their feet would be a quick path to sobriety, even at the cost of a recession which, I repeat, would eventually happen at a time of Ahmadinejad's choosing anyway! But I digress.)
Such drastic moves could certainly stop Iran's nuclear production for a long, long time, and degrade their military preparedness. (Both nuclear weapons research and large militaries require MONEY; without oil, Iran has none.) It could potentially result in the overthrow of the mullahs.
But...it isn't going to happen.
Therefore, Iran will get nukes. They will use one in Tel Aviv as soon as it is practical to do so: No reasonable person has any doubt of THAT. It may not be "practical," according to their definition of the word, until they have twenty or more nukes in their arsenal, since they'll probably try to forestall an American response to the destruction of Israel by threatening one or more U.S. cities with terrorist nukes.
But the U.S. will ultimately respond anyway, before or after the destruction of Israel, which (let's face it) the U.S. will simply not allow, even if (just as obviously) Europe would.
So Iran will therefore set off a terrorist nuke, or a bioweapon, or just send agents to hose down shopping malls with AK-47's, to deter U.S. forces abroad by sowing chaos at home.
The U.S. will then be forced to take one of two options: Either escalate gradually, destroying bits of Iran at a time with conventional weapons and eventually nukes, while Iran responds with escalating non-conventional terror attacks, or else go directly to maximum devastation.
To decide between the two options, they'll bring in the games theorists, who'll tell them that it's a choice between (a.) nuclear tit-for-tatting over months until there are tens of millions dead on both sides, or (b.) just going all out immediately, in which case there'll be millions dead only on the Iranian side.
So, finally, the U.S. will go all out. There will be a lot of double-flashes in a short period of time, and a short while thereafter, no living being larger than a housecat will still have a heartbeat in Persia.
Welcome to the twenty-first century, chock full of hope and promise.
Posted by: R.C.Hamrick at November 18, 2006 10:20 PM (De35R)
15
So, finally, the U.S. will go all out. There will be a lot of double-flashes in a short period of time, and a short while thereafter, no living being larger than a housecat will still have a heartbeat in Persia.
Here's another right-winger just champing at the bit for nuclear war with Iran. Right on, bro. Eff those Muslims. Turn it into a parking lot, I say. The hell with civilian casualties. They're all terrorists anyway, when you get right down to it.
Posted by: Arbotreeist at November 18, 2006 10:29 PM (N8M1W)
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The U.S. will then be forced to take one of two options: Either escalate gradually, destroying bits of Iran at a time with conventional weapons...
Actually its much simpler than that when you understand the mechanics of the Iranian economy.
They import ~80% of their gasoline even though they're lousy with crude.
Posted by: Purple Avenger at November 18, 2006 10:55 PM (l8HpH)
17
From what I know about Vietnam (not enough), what got the N. Vietnamese to agree to peace was a massive bombing campaign (rolling thunder 2?) where the pilots were finally given free reign to blow up what was important the the N. Vietnamese.
Of course we lost anyway, because we didn't support the south after we pulled out, but the point is that brutal aggression seems to be the only way to win a war. The only way we've been able to lose wars is by not allowing our soldiers to do so.
Posted by: Kevin at November 19, 2006 09:31 AM (i2YG7)
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This is not what it takes to win in Iraq, I doubt any captain would suggest that it is. If they did, and if you really in turn agree, may I suggest some reading:
Learning to Eat Soup with a Knife: Counterinsurgency Lessons from Malaya and Vietnam
by John A. Nagl, Peter J. Schoomaker
P.S. Sorry to hear you guys just lost Kissinger.
Posted by: Fred at November 19, 2006 12:05 PM (jSBbA)
19
P.S. Sorry to hear you guys just lost Kissinger.
Never had him to begin with, so there's nothing to lose.
Posted by: Purple Avenger at November 19, 2006 01:03 PM (wfN0Q)
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" ' Wouldn't you use IEDs if Iranian tanks roared in the streets of Houston to bring you "freedom"? ' (he)
It would depend on why they were there. Somehow, I suspect it wouldn't be to depose a despised dictator and allow for free elections though." (Purple Avenger )
Of course Saddam was a dictator and is a murderer, but he had been this since 1979. And the US didn't mind him being that when he was attacking Iran and when Rumsfeld shook hands with him.
Posted by: he at November 19, 2006 01:05 PM (3eK2/)
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I believe the Germans tried this on a larger scale at Lidice and Oradour-sur-Glane. It doesn't work. In US history, it also did not work during Sheridan's Valley Campaign during the War Between the States. The good captain, while a valiant warrior and a gentleman, must have slept through military history at The Point or ROTC.
Now, if he had advocated the destruction of public facilities or the temporary suspension of public services (except security)...go for it.
Posted by: Perfesser at November 19, 2006 02:10 PM (qA8c4)
22
And the US didn't mind him being that when he was attacking Iran and when Rumsfeld shook hands with him.
Yea, the Iranians were always the good guys...
Posted by: Purple Avenger at November 19, 2006 03:52 PM (wfN0Q)
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Arbotreeist gets zero out of ten for reading comprehension.
Posted by: R.C.Hamrick at November 19, 2006 05:41 PM (De35R)
24
I disagree with the massive firepower theory. It did not work for the Russians in Afghanistan and it will not work in Iraq. The people of Iraq will not turn against the terrorists and start shooting them when they lay an IED...the reason is that if they shoot them, there are a few hundred more who will avenge their death and kill the family that stopped the IED attack.
I don't think America has lost the political will to fight a war at all. If you look at history we really never had it. WWII and the Civil War were the only two wars that had polarized sides and simplistic objectives. Most of the other wars we have fought (except the Revolution) were nebulous in their goals...Panama Canal, Spanish American War...we even had war protestors for WWII. Bottom line...this is a hard fight with no definite way to win except time and the will to not give up. To give up now would be irresponsible, illogical and would do nothing more than ruin our foreign policy by giving the impression that we don't finish what we start, but view things as disposable....even Iraqi lives.
Posted by: Jason at November 19, 2006 05:50 PM (E64xO)
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RC,
Actually the problem is not comprehension. It is selectively picking things to reply to, taking them out of context, and then adding the universal left talking points to prove his point. There is a formula for it. Double standards and moving the goal posts. Remember, if a lefty can't answer with facts they change the subject, swear, or call names. Simple. Look at Earl...LOL
Posted by: Specter at November 19, 2006 05:53 PM (ybfXM)
26
Jason,
I tend to agree with your analysis. The difficult part becomes how to fight an insurgency. It really becomes a security issue to quell violence. And I think that the smaller, leaner US armed forces, with quick-strike ability, is the way to keep going. Set piece, large formation forces will not work. That is what the Russians tried to employ in Afghanistan. It didn't work. It is what the British tried to apply in our Revolutionary War. It didn't work. You have to apply the correct tactics to the circumstances.
Posted by: Specter at November 19, 2006 06:05 PM (ybfXM)
27
I disagree with the massive firepower theory. It did not work for the Russians in Afghanistan
Perhaps because the Russians never used it in Afghanistan?
It worked pretty well against Japan though.
Posted by: Purple Avenger at November 19, 2006 11:02 PM (wfN0Q)
28
The people of Iraq will not turn against the terrorists and start shooting them when they lay an IED...the reason is that if they shoot them, there are a few hundred more who will avenge their death and kill the family that stopped the IED attack.
Exactly right. We're already past the point of diminishing returns with the level of firepower being used in Iraq. The more force you use, the more you alienate the general population. The insurgents will be the ones reaping the benefits of that, not us.
Posted by: Arbotreeist at November 19, 2006 11:57 PM (N8M1W)
29
The people of Iraq will not turn against the terrorists and start shooting them when they lay an IED...
How do you explain the new position of the tribes in Anbar then?
Posted by: Purple Avenger at November 20, 2006 02:02 AM (wfN0Q)
30
Friends:
The solution is Iraq is a mix of nuanced military, as in target the bombers with the fruit of Intel and citizen tips, diplomacy and internal politics. I understand completely the frustrations of this Captain as I have felt them myself. Combat power will not win the day alone. It must be metered out on exact targets of opportunity. The key is bridge building between Sunni and Shia with the Kurds helping as they can. There has been some steps taken in this direction. Iraqis are a proud people, and they understand TRUST and DEEDS as in the manner of Ronald Reagan's "Trust but Verify." This takes time, but once momentum is built, it will be hard to side track by the enemy. This is nuance in its purest form, and you don't read it in any newspaper. You are hearing it from a participant in the process.
Posted by: Colonel David W. Moon (USMC-R) at November 20, 2006 08:21 AM (Eodj2)
31
The
Isrelis have pursued a policy of razing homes that were proven terrorist facilities. It has not resultd in any Palestinian restraint. Quite the reverse. Any policy that rests on a rational responce by adherents of a death cult is bound to fail.
Posted by: garrett at November 20, 2006 11:17 AM (6Hyks)
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So much ignorance in such a small space.
Posted by: Jadegold at November 20, 2006 07:36 PM (80g9K)
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It has not resultd in any Palestinian restraint.
Other than attacks within Israel being down of course...
Posted by: Purple Avenger at November 22, 2006 04:23 AM (wfN0Q)
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What a Strange Way to Wage a War
Josh Manchester of The Adventures of Chester has a warning posted at >TCS Daily:
Iraq is dangerous. Progress is measured in weeks and inches, not minutes and miles. It is weakly governed when governed at all. But to leave too early will be to compound these seemingly intractable attributes with the most deadly of sins: a failure of willpower. The world will know that when Iraq becomes the next Taliban-like state, or the next Rwanda, that it was only because the United States, the most able, powerful, and wealthy nation in the history of the world, gave up. If that disturbs you, imagine how much it delights our adversaries.
One can only hope that the moderate Democrats that panned Nancy Pelosi's choice of
John Murtha yesterday in favor of Steny Hoyer are listening.
The Pelosi/Rangel/Levin/
Kucinich wing of the Democratic Party has proven to be incredibly short-sighted, still thinking of the Iraq War as a tool to bludgeon President Bush and the Republican Party. They patently ignore the expected increased civilian deaths and possible genocide their short-sighted policy of withdrawal promise for the near-term, and the political damage that a retreat from Iraq would cause to the United States for decades to come.
Quite frankly, I'd opine that they care more about beating Bush than what is best for this nation, or for Iraq.
I challenge liberals, in all good faith, to explain how a near-term withdrawal from Iraq before the nation is stabilized will accomplish:
- Making Iraq safe for Iraqis;
- Anything other than convincing Islamists that terrorism is the best way to effect their will;
- Anything other than making all nations around the world consider the United States to be a fickle, unreliable ally
Please, step up and tell us how abandoning Iraq will be seen as anything other than "open season" to Sunni terrorist and insurgents, and Shiite militias and criminal gangs. Iraq is bad now, so what effect do you think that removing the 140,000 best trained and equipped soldiers in the country will have, other than an marked increase in chaos and bloodshed? For a liberal left that claims to care so much about the plight of people in third world regions, they seem all to willing to sell the Iraqi people down the river to genocide.
Please, tell us why the terrorists that overwhelming
cheered for Democratic victories in the mid-terms should view a withdrawal from Iraq as anything other than a validation of their tactics and assumptions of how to best to conquer the world.
Iran is watching. Syria is watching. Hezbollah and Hamas are watching, as are dozens of other terrorists groups, as well as every nation in the world. What other message could they possibly receive from a U.S. withdrawal from Iraq, other than that a fierce depravity is the best way to ensure they get what they desire?
No, now is not a time to withdraw. It is a time to explain the stakes of this war to the American people, and rededicate this nation to winning the War in Iraq as one part of the overall War on Terror.
There can be no lasting peace through withdrawal.
Update: Via
Instapundit,
Investor's Business Daily has similar thoughts.
Update: via
Hot Air, Democrat Orson Scott Card lays it
out on the line:
The only issue that matters is still the War on Terror. Everybody talks about changing direction in Iraq. I agree. But I doubt they mean the same thing I do.
The only ways to change direction in Iraq are to give up and go home – a militarily stupid and morally indefensible move – or to go to the source of the insurgents' supply and cut it off.
Throughout this election season I have been hoping that President Bush had a bold military move against Iran up his sleeve, and that the only reason he was holding off was that he didn't want it to be perceived as an attempt to influence the election – or because he feared it would influence the election negatively.
Well, the election is over. Will he take the necessary military action to wipe out Iran's capability to disrupt the flow of oil in the Gulf? This would remove any credible threat from Iran (for the moment, at least), making it clear to both Iran and Syria that the way is now open for the US to take whatever action is necessary to stop their support of both terrorism and the subset of terrorism called "the Iraq insurgency."
The way to save the lives of American soldiers and Iraqi civilians in Iraq is to get regime change in Iran and Syria.
Let's hope his fellow Democrats follow his advice.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
11:00 AM
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1
"There can be no lasting peace through withdrawal."
...and there can be no victory through staying the course. So pick yer poison. Continue to inflame hatred towards America that will ripple throughout this century, just as America's intervention on behalf of the Sha of Iran and later for Saddam in the 80's has lead us to where we are now...or withdraw and let them tear themselves apart with intra-faction and ethnic strife.
BTW: Love how that smaller government philosophy is playing out in the Maliki Administration.
Posted by: Fred at November 17, 2006 11:32 AM (dbo1X)
2
CY,
Iraq is a lost cause. We didn't do what we needed to do to be successful and there is little if anything we can do now that will alter the outcome. The current administration did nearly everything wrong, from needlessly antagonizing our traditional allies to sending too few troops to disbanding the Iraqi army to installing the incompetent Paul Bremer. We have reached the tipping point where the best one can hope for is to cut our losses and try and minimize the damage. We have succeeded in making Iran THE key power in the region. I know this may not be what most of you want to hear but it is an accurate assessment of the current situation. We can stay here another decade at a cost of billions of dollars and thousands of lives but we will be lucky if we can maintain the current state of disfuntionality. All the BS about how we can't leave and only victory is acceptable ignores the reality of the situation we are in. I'm sure, in the minds of many of you, when all is said and done this will be someone elses fault. It will be liberals and the MSM who are to blame for the failure of this glorious undertaking. That may give you some comfort but history will not be so kind. We have made a mess of this and those chickens will eventually come home to roost. When they do, we will have the great "Decider" to thank for that.
Posted by: NYNick at November 17, 2006 11:45 AM (vgzEN)
3
We can stay here another decade at a cost of...
We already had a 12 year long perpetual deployment there sitting on Saddam after the first gulf war.
If you think another 10 years are expensive, and they are, a pullout is going to cost much more. Clinton's Somalia pullout cost us the WTC and 2,700 dead. Bin Laden has stated that was his inspiration to attack the Americans in ernest.
What makes you believe we shouldn't take these people at their word about what their inspirations are?
Posted by: Purple Avenger at November 17, 2006 12:02 PM (l8HpH)
4
Purple,
One of the biggest mistakes we've made is to elevate our enemies. We should not be basing our foreign policy on the utterings of UBL or any other terrorist. If we had been smart rather than stupid three years ago, UBL would be dead.
We should not compound our stupidity with more stupidity. You say that 10 more years would be expensive but you don't seem to understand, it's not the cost, it's the outcome. What would be different? Do you honestly think Iran would abandon their support for the Mehdi Army? Do you think the Sunnis can be wiped off the map without a full scale civil war? Exactly how would 10 more years alter the dynamics? This idea that we can win by resolve alone needs to be put to death. Resolve cannot overcome incompetence and hurbris. That's the lesson we will hopefully learn. Also, your assessment of the cause of 9/11 is a bit simplistic. That event was the result of thirty years of failure on the part of several administrations to deal with the issue of terror. It leaves aside the rash of hijackings in the early 80's and late 70's, the hezzbollah bombing of our embassy in Beriut. I could go on.
Posted by: NYNick at November 17, 2006 12:30 PM (vgzEN)
5
Fred said “..and there can be no victory through staying the course.” Whaaaat? So, we should have given up in 1943 because we hadn’t achieved victory in Germany? Or after the battle of the Coral Sea in the Pacific? The north should have given up after Bull Run because victory wasn’t around the corner?
“Staying the course” is the ONLY path to victory. We set on a course to remove Saddam (accomplished) and then set up a functioning democratic government in Iraq (working on it) along with developing a functional infrastructure (working on it). The fact that it’s taking longer than the pundits would like is irrelevant. Personally, I would like to see a more ruthless regime in charge that would crack down on the death squads.
Every day we’re in Iraq is a victory. Brick by bloody brick. Train the police. Train the army. Build up the skills of the new officers and NCOs. This isn’t a mini-series or even a seasonal TV show, it ain’t gonna be over in a week or a month or a year. Unless you’re a Kurd. Look how far they’ve come in 12 years under the aegis of the US (under Operation Northern Watch). If it works in the north of Iraq, it can work in the rest of the country.
But they’ve got to cut off the flow of fifth columnists and supplies from Iran, Jordan and Syria.
Another bonus for us, we’ve got a great cadre of soldiers and marines, trained in the tactics of urban warfare, ready to take up arms once again when the jihadi’s bring their violent ideology to our streets. As long as we’re in Iraq, we’ve got wannabee martyrs lining up to attack the “Great Satan” over there. Pull out, and they’ll go elsewhere (Europe and US). UNLESS we “stay the course” and get the Iraqi’s up to the point where they can take care of themselves. BTW, you can view the ongoing reconstruction of Iraq at www.state.gov/p/nea/rls/rpt/iraqstatus/ (sorry, don't know how to do embedded links) -cp
Posted by: cold pizza at November 17, 2006 12:42 PM (BHnFB)
6
Fred and NYNick
I suggest you read the entire Orson Scott Card piece. The realities of this war, your questions and concerns are addressed quite nicely.
After reading his essay, I have to ask you, do you honestly and intellectually believe there is anything we can do to halt Islamic terrorist attacks against our allies and ourselves?
Posted by: blamin at November 17, 2006 12:50 PM (gF/W/)
7
How much Kool-Aid do you have to drink to find any kind of parallel between WW2 and Iraq? At least enough to stain your lips, and your lips are stained, "cold pizza."
Posted by: Fred at November 17, 2006 12:53 PM (dbo1X)
8
"One of the biggest mistakes we've made is to elevate our enemies."
THE biggest mistake we've made is not killing our enemies - ruthlessly and with the greatest of prejudice. That's the only way to win a war. Anything less is a half-hearted waste of resources and young lives. Unfortunately, we seem to have lost the stomach for defending ourselves. We've become more concerned with not violating the civil rights of unlawful combatants and reducing civilian casualties to zero(an impossible feat when the enemy is an unlawful combatant; indistinguishable from civilians and hiding behind them).
I grieve for my country that we've come to this. Blind rage by a political party against a sitting President so complete that military defeat is seen as a positive outcome...
Posted by: Diogenes at November 17, 2006 12:56 PM (/c6lU)
9
Blamin,
I have no interest in reading what this Orson guy has to say, that little snip is enough for me to realize he can't be taken seriously.
"The way to save the lives of American soldiers and Iraqi civilians in Iraq is to get regime change in Iran and Syria."
Really? Maybe we can enlist superman and his pals at the hall of justice for that mission! It's idiotic to assume we can do what he suggests. We are in deep trouble in Iraq, what do you think the outcome would be in Iran?
Do you own a map? Take a look at where Iran sits. Orson is delusional if he thinks we can occupy the land from the Steppes to the Persian sea. Please, we've tried the fantasy based foreign policy idea once, let's not repeat it. Iran has about 70 million people to Iraq's 25 million. They border not just Afghanistan and Pakistan but the vitally important Caucasus region as well. If you think Iran gave us problems in Iraq, wait until the Russians and Chinese start meddling in your little war. We need to be honest about where we are and move forward from here. But most people, including the "Decider" still don't get it. You cannot go around saying things like we will not accept a nuclear North Korea or a nuclear Iran unless you have some way to stop it from happening.
Posted by: NYNick at November 17, 2006 01:18 PM (vgzEN)
10
Diogenes,
Military defeat is not a positive outcome. And let's not cry the crocidile tears about the poor president. This president is responsible for the position he's in and the position we all are in. He could have spent a little less time demonizing his detractors and concentrating on the policy but he didn't. He was the war president remember? Well, in the end, one reaps what one sows. If he wants to be respected by all, he could have shown respect for all. But the Rove strategy was to play to your base and use wedge issues whenever possible. He's created a party where only the true believers are left and there are simply not enough of you.
Hell, even Richard Perle has left the reservation.
Posted by: NYNick at November 17, 2006 01:28 PM (vgzEN)
11
Fred and NYNick, I asked some fairly simple questions from you and other liberals in this post:
...explain how a near-term withdrawal from Iraq before the nation is stabilized will accomplish:
Making Iraq safe for Iraqis;Anything other than convincing Islamists that terrorism is the best way to effect their will;Anything other than making all nations around the world consider the United States to be a fickle, unreliable ally.
Interestingly enough, you have not addressed any of these three points, leading me to believe that like your Party's leadership, you are unable or unwilling to examine the long-term effects of the "withdrawal" solution that you advocate.
Interestingly enough, liberals seem to think that Iraq is a lost cause, but the overwhelming majority of soldiers who have their lives on the line say just the opposite, that we should continue and perhaps increase our efforts to eradicate terrorists through more aggressive action. Pardon me from disagreeing with you, but I think the soldiers on the ground in Iraq have a much better idea of what it takes to win, and whether or not the war is winnable, than a media holed up in Baghdad hotels, a liberal base blinded by their hatred for all things conservative or military (sorry Fred, I know you're vet, but you chose to lie down with those who generally revile your service), and politicians looking out for their short-term personal gains, not American's long-term best interests.
Again I challenge you: how can an untimely withdrawal from Iraq do anything beneficial for America in the long run? Certainly, it can decrease our short term casualties, but at what cost? Do you really think that allowing a few tens of thousands of Iraqis (or more) to die, along with validating the tactics of terrorism (thereby seriously increasing its tactical and strategic use worldwide), is actually going to create fewer American deaths due to terrorism in the years and decades to come?
Is it worth the loss of trust and credibility the United States will suffer, as the world comes to regard us as a serially unreliable ally? Do you think that if we show we are unreliable, that the Chinese will think twice about attacking Taiwan, or that the terrorist-supporting states will think twice about enabling further attacks against the United States, convinced they can simply wait out any retaliatory strikes?
I'm moved to suspect that your views are entirely motivated by short-term political greed, not long-term thinking about the catastrophic damage that the policies you support pose to the future of this country and the world.
The fact, NYNick, that you refuse to even read a viewpoint that opposes your own, combined with a childishly simplistic misunderstanding that we need to physically occupy Syria and Iran to remove their ability to support terrorism, and your inability to examine the possibility of the damage your choices would cause, simply confirms to me that you do not have the intellectual gravitas to be taken seriously on this subject.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at November 17, 2006 01:57 PM (g5Nba)
12
CY,
It's not me that advocates occupying Iran, it's your friend Orson. He wrote:
"The way to save the lives of American soldiers and Iraqi civilians in Iraq is to get regime change in Iran and Syria."
How exactly does one go about regime change? Because that phrase used to mean invading the country and removing their leadership. Once one does that, one must also occupy it or nothing is accomplished (See Iraq). You assume I have some animus for the military. Why? Is it because you think only conservatives fight? Is the current army made up of only conservatives and their offspring? I have no problem with fighting our enemies but the military cannot bail out a flawed policy. As for the soldiers, I am sure they feel that way. They are trained to fight and to die for one another. Seeing ones comrades shot or blown up has an effect on them. How could they not want to see this through? That however is not how we win or fight wars. The military reports to the civilians, not the other way around. They cannot do the impossible but if you ask them, they will try. They will fight to the last man for a failed policy if ordered to do so. That is their strength. That's also why we hold the civilians in charge responsible. You say my "inability to examine the possibility of the damage your choices would cause..." blah, blah, blah. Well, sometimes there are no good options. And whos fault is that?
Posted by: NYNick at November 17, 2006 02:34 PM (vgzEN)
13
"Explain how a near-term withdrawal from Iraq before the nation is stabilized will accomplish:"
* Making Iraq safe for Iraqis;
It won't, no doubt the civil war will intensify if we leave.
* Anything other than convincing Islamists that terrorism is the best way to effect their will;
Bush has set us up for a painful defeat in an unnecessary war, no doubt about it.
* Anything other than making all nations around the world consider the United States to be a fickle, unreliable ally.
I've got bad news for you, Bush and the neocons have already made us a pariah nation. In 2001 Tehran prayed for the US, but since then Bush trashed the good will expressed from all over the world by mistreating our allies and starting a universally unpopular war over WMD in a country that didn't have them, to avenge 911 in a country that wasn't involved with it, and to defeat Islamic extremism in a secular nation.
Now in your zeal to lash out at the Dems, you are doing the same thing that Bush and Cheney did in 2004: goading the Dems for not having any good ideas about Iraq. Well, there simply aren't any good options, and it's rich to hear this criticism from the people responsible for the quagmire.
You need to outline the objectives, and don't give me "stay the course", tell me what the course is. Perhaps your next bid is, establish a stable government. Bear in mind that it used to be a democracy, but nobody even pretends that's the goal now. We just want to quit watching our soldiers die without sparking off a civil war into which Iran and Turkey might be drawn. What would this stable government look like exactly? The Sunnis and Shias are blowing up eachother's mosques, torturing eachother with power drills, and as a sideline blowing up US humvees. How do you want our soldiers to make these two sides magically trust eachother all of a sudden? What rot. And then there are the Kurds, who will be damned before they accept a Shia or a Sunni leader.
Your boys thought they were done in 2003 and the "there is no history of ethnic strife in Iraq" and that we would be greeted as liberators, and now you lash out at us for being the problem.
No, there aren't any solutions, so I can't in good conscience ask any more soldiers to sacrifice their lives.
Posted by: Earl at November 17, 2006 02:41 PM (x3DGU)
14
Military defeat is not a positive outcome.
On that you are correct - but it appears to be a means to an end for many on the left. It seems that all they care about is embarrassing GWB and retaking power.
And let's not cry the crocidile tears about the poor president.
CY is right - you either won't read or refuse to comprehend the posts of those that disagree with you. GWB will have to defend himself. I'm not happy with his lack of leadership for the past two years myself. Neither do I see any constructive ideas coming from the left - only an endless littany of what's wrong...
Posted by: Diogenes at November 17, 2006 02:48 PM (/c6lU)
15
Diogenes,
We already took back power. That was what the last election was all about.
I read all the posts but I still do not see a solution. What I think we who disagree with you are saying is that your solutions will not work.
Adding more troops has been shot down even by the generals in charge. Even if we did add thousands of troops, what would change? Would Iran quit their support of their Shia brothers?
Would the insurgents suddenly get up and go home? Highly unlikely. If we add more troops we will be right back here having this same argument next year and the year after that. Eliminating Iran and Syria would be nice but I fail to see how that's going to be accomplished. If you know how we can do that, by all means, let's hear it.
Posted by: NYNick at November 17, 2006 03:22 PM (vgzEN)
16
One of the biggest mistakes we've made is to elevate our enemies.
How is taking it at face value when someone says they want to kill you "elevating them"?
If it were a bunch of cross dressing Druid midgits making the threats one could laugh and say they don't have the power or critical mass to carry out their threats.
The Islamists aren't in that category as the WTC wreckage, and other devastation around the world plainly attests to.
So what's YOUR plan? Convince me the democrats can make me safer. I'm willing to listen and be convinced if the argument is good enough.
I haven't heard a single thing of substance from them yet.
Posted by: Purple Avenger at November 17, 2006 03:24 PM (l8HpH)
17
Don't know this Orson Scott Card fellow, but for a Democrat, he seems to have guts.
Posted by: Anonymous for now at November 17, 2006 03:27 PM (RMHg5)
18
NYNick
Mr. Card di dn't advocate occupying Syria and Iran. Do you always make uninformed assumptions?
If you, or those that agree with you, ever actually read his piece, I suspect you’ll be strangely quite on this issue.
Posted by: blamin at November 17, 2006 03:40 PM (gF/W/)
19
Purple Avenger:
"Convince me the democrats can make me safer."
Poor baby's scared. Too bad you can't trade more of your civil liberties in against the 1/1,000,000 chance you'll be killed by a terrorist. Coward.
"I haven't heard a single thing of substance from them yet."
Right, the GOP is the source of all truth and rightness, and the Dems are all idiots and traitors. Why do you bother to read the news?
Posted by: Earl at November 17, 2006 03:51 PM (x3DGU)
20
Blamin,
I read it. It's even more idiotic than I assumed.
"Syria we could topple quite easily, once Iran's ability to threaten shipping in the Gulf was removed. And without Syria as its surrogate in the Arab world, and without any credible threat to the world oil supply, either Iran's military would change the Iranian government, or the Iranian government would have to face the fact that it could no longer act with impunity."
Really? He doesn't quite say how we would "topple" Syria, just that it would be easy.
Then, voila! Iran would be toppled by their military or would cower in a corner and be nice to us. That is what you want me to take seriously?
Posted by: NYNick at November 17, 2006 03:54 PM (vgzEN)
21
Earl said: "Poor baby's scared. Too bad you can't trade more of your civil liberties in against the 1/1,000,000 chance you'll be killed by a terrorist. Coward."
While there's nothing wrong per se in being a "coward", your post is simply outrageous. It's about PRINCIPLE, you stupid little titsucker. I'm assured you'd be scared if you met me - as I can't stand mean people. Welcome to Finland, motherfucker.
Posted by: Anonymous for now at November 17, 2006 03:59 PM (RMHg5)
22
A for N: There's nothing wrong with being a coward? What is about principle? Why should I be scared of you? Who's mean? Finland???
I guess you're insulting me, but really I don't have a clue what you're talking about. Maybe you should take a little more time with your writing.
Posted by: Earl at November 17, 2006 04:18 PM (x3DGU)
23
Blamin,
"Mr. Card di dn't advocate occupying Syria and Iran. Do you always make uninformed assumptions?"
What does "topple" mean? Give me your description? How does one "topple" a sitting government without filling the power vacuum? Thank god there are people in the military who are paid to think about these things. Call it whatever you want but it's going to mean boots on the ground.
This Orson guy also assumes that Bush has some secret plan to confront Iran militarily.
Bush had this to say on the subject in April of this year...
"Bush said his goal is to keep the Iranians from having the capability or the knowledge to have a nuclear weapon.
"I know we're here in Washington (where) prevention means force," Mr. Bush said. "It doesn't mean force necessarily. In this case it means diplomacy."
I guess this plan is so secret not even the president is aware of it. But apparently this Orson guy is a foreign policy genius simply because he's a Democrat and thinks like you do.
You, me, the entire world knows we are not likely to strike Iran anytime in the near future.
In fact, we are much more likely to use Tony Blair for cover and go to Iran, hat in hand and ask them to assist in stabilizing Iraq for us. This is the outcome of a failed policy. We've made our ultimate enemy in the region more powerful by a factor of 10.
Posted by: NYNick at November 17, 2006 04:38 PM (vgzEN)
24
NYNick
OK, I’ll upgrade my charge of you practicing “uninformed assumptions” to “selective thinking”.
Do you think Bush and his generals should openly debate/discuss all scenarios and possible plans, and never, ever use a little misdirection concerning the enemy?
Are you suggesting the hostile leadership of a foreign gov’t can’t be “toppled” without our boots occupying the “vacuum”?
Are you ignoring the fact that Syria is a very weak country whose leaders have a tenuous hold over its people?
Did you ignore the parts in his thesis concerning the will of the people to obey under tyranny?
I’m paraphrasing here, and I can’t remember exactly who said it, but it kind of has a ring of self-evident truth to it. “Those who have always been free will never understand the desire for freedom that burns within the oppressed.”
Posted by: blamin at November 17, 2006 05:35 PM (gF/W/)
25
Blamin,
Are you seriously suggesting that if we removed the Assad Government from power and simply left, that Democracy would spring from the ashes? Is that a plan?
Posted by: NYNick at November 17, 2006 05:45 PM (vgzEN)
26
Earl wrote: "A for N: There's nothing wrong with being a coward? What is about principle? Why should I be scared of you? Who's mean? Finland???"
- Being a coward (= being afraid when few others are / when there's no reason to be) is regrettable, but it's not WRONG. One can't help being a coward, right?
- Opposing terrorists is about principle. I agree that right now (and I stress "right now") there is little chance of you or me becoming a victim of terrorists, but that's not to say we shouldn't fight them.
- You should be scared of me because I stand up for what is right. You, sir, are everything the Western countries should fight against.
- "Who's mean? Finland???" Learn your own language, stupid. You are mean. I can't stand people who belittle others for no reason.
You, an obvious Democrat, probably think the world outside America loves you. That's not the case. You'd be surprised how many people despise you backstabbing idiots. Yes, this is an ad hominem attack, but you for one deserve it.
Posted by: Anonymous for now at November 17, 2006 06:23 PM (RMHg5)
27
NYNick,
Yes you took power...the election was based on "getting out of Iraq". So riddle me this oh intelligent one. Why is it that the latest AP/Ipsos poll (you remember - the pollster that always over-samples dems - and continued in this poll too) says that 57% of Americans believe that the Democrats have NO PLAN for Iraq?
All of your fancy words and empty-rhetoric doesn't mean crap when you have NO PLAN. Add to that the continuous political wrangling - the continuous tossing of your own under the bus by your own - within the Dem party and what do we have? Impending chaos.
Maybe you should concentrate on getting a plan together for uniting your own party domestically before you start mouthing off about how you are going to handle international problems.
Posted by: Specter at November 17, 2006 08:20 PM (ybfXM)
28
Specter,
Read the comments above. Iraq is lost. There is not a magical potion the Democrats can concoct that will save it. You say:
"Maybe you should concentrate on getting a plan together for uniting your own party domestically before you start mouthing off about how you are going to handle international problems."
I would think the plan Pelosi laid out for the first 100 hours would be considered by some to be a plan. Is it your opinion that Democrats should be responsible for solving impossible situations created by Republicans? There are many Republicans that believe just that. The party of responsibility will have to take responsibility for the mess they created in Iraq and beyond. We can do all that is possible but we cannot be expected to do the impossible.
Also, the electorate has seen the results of Republican foreign policy and found it lacking.
Don't look now but your party's expertise on international affairs is in ruins. What does it say when conservatives like William Buckley and Richard Perle are closer to my position than they are to yours? All your side has left is blaming the MSM and liberals and as someone once said, that dog won't hunt anymore.
Posted by: nynick at November 17, 2006 09:28 PM (4SNDL)
29
Anonymous for now:
"Being a coward (= being afraid when few others are / when there's no reason to be) is regrettable, but it's not WRONG. One can't help being a coward, right?"
Being a coward is bad, you can't easily dig your way out of this one. Similarly, people can't help being stupid, but that's still bad.
"Opposing terrorists is about principle. I agree that right now (and I stress 'right now') there is little chance of you or me becoming a victim of terrorists, but that's not to say we shouldn't fight them."
I agree.
"You should be scared of me because I stand up for what is right. You, sir, are everything the Western countries should fight against."
Such melodrama! You stand up against terrorism because it's BAD. How clever and noble! It's cool how you can know so much about me with your super powers.
"'Who's mean? Finland???' Learn your own language, stupid. You are mean. I can't stand people who belittle others for no reason."
I wasn't asking if Finland is mean, I was saying "Who is mean?" and "What on earth do you mean by Finland?" because your initial post was laughably incoherent. How is it that you can belittle me but it's wrong when I belittle others?
"You, an obvious Democrat, probably think the world outside America loves you. That's not the case. You'd be surprised how many people despise you backstabbing idiots. Yes, this is an ad hominem attack, but you for one deserve it."
I'm not a Democrat. I have no illusions about the world loving the US. What you don't seen to understand is that it's George Bush and his fellow Republicans who have alienated many of our former allies over the last few years, not the Democrats.
Posted by: Earl at November 17, 2006 09:29 PM (x3DGU)
30
One more thing Specter,
"All of your fancy words and empty-rhetoric doesn't mean crap..."
Stop, you flatter me....
Posted by: nynick at November 17, 2006 09:33 PM (4SNDL)
31
I see you dodged the question NYNick. Where's your plan? You ran on "fix Iraq". You won on that platform. You can't duck the responsibility now. We are there and no amount of obfuscation on your point will change the reality. So where's the plan bud? Got one yet?
BTW - don't go into party and international stuff. I got one word for ya - CLINTON. As soon as you get the implication of that, check back in. Here's another one - CARTER. LOL. Don't be such a doofus.
Posted by: Specter at November 17, 2006 10:53 PM (ybfXM)
32
And one more thing NYnicky,
Of course I mean other than "cut and run." Because that will cause more humanitarian strife in that country than when CLINTON turned his back and millions died there due to starvation and lack of medical supplies.....Do you really need a history lesson that bad?
Posted by: Specter at November 17, 2006 11:01 PM (ybfXM)
33
Specter: there is not good plan. We have to choose the lesser evil. I like it how you all create the biggest strategic and political screwup in modern memory, then you stand around cackling about how the Dems doesn't know how to clean it up. You're just another lifetime citizen of Clown World.
The paradox you face is that if the Iraq war is so apt, so important to the WOT, so close to victory, then it's not a problem, right? It's all good. But if it's not a problem then how can you goad us about not having a great answer? You can't have it both ways.
Posted by: Earl at November 18, 2006 02:13 AM (x3DGU)
34
Specter: still bitter about Clinton are we? He did, after all, actually know something about governing a country. W on the other hand was a drunk for decades, drug user, poor reservist, twice failed oil exec, not much damn good at anything, never learned any kind of trade, yet the GOP, the party of personal responsiblity, thought he was just the man for President.
What are the odds on his Rushmore bid? I'm guessing he doesn't makes it. What do you say?
http://www.tdaxp.com/images/medium_george_walker_bush_rushmore_sm.jpg
Enjoy your Jimmy Carter moment, friend. I know I am.
Posted by: Earl at November 18, 2006 02:18 AM (x3DGU)
35
Gee Earl - Let's review the facts shall we? Strongest economy in 40 years. Lowest unemployment ever. No MAJOR terror attacks on US since Clinton was sent packing (well - Gore). Horrid, despicable, dictator deposed (according to Clinton's Regime Change Initiative). Blooming democracy in Iraq. Economy in Iraq growing. Yes - utter and complete failure. NOT!
The problem is that you won't quote, or face, facts. Other than what you read in NYT or over at KOS (he's 0-20 now on picks to be elected....what insight!), that is.
You see - you have an unbridled hatred for anything "Bush". It doesn't matter whether it is backed up by fact or not. I love it when you claim that all this is Bush's fault! Imagine, nothing of a terroristic nature happened before Bush right? Nothing like the first attack on the Twin Towers, nothing like the US Cole, nothing like OBL declaring war on the US in 1994, nothing like our failure in Somalia and the subsequent claim of victory by terrorists. According to your logic, all of that must have been Bush's fault because Saint Clinton never screwed up (and I will stay away from the pun inherent there).
The true fact is that all of it is connected. You can't take things as static snapshots in time. Doing so is dishonest. You must look at it as a continuum - where events of the past affect the now and the future. So don't try to change the goal posts by claiming that I'm "bitter" about Clinton. I'm not - I just happen to know the facts and live in the real world. You apparently have a problem with that.
And I brought up Carter - possible the worst president of modern times - because if he had dealt forcefully with Iran back then, we might not be facing some of the problems we are today. See - history - past events affect the future. It can't be ignored. Let me give you an example. Libya and Gadaffi. Notice that when he started to rear his ugly head, the same way that Hussein did, Reagan nearly chopped it off. In fact, after forceful American action, we never really heard from Libya again, did we. Action - planned action - leads to results.
Now the crux. Have errors been made in Iraq? Obviously the answer is yes. Is it a total failure as you and NYNick claim? No. Hussein is gone, new government in place, democracy even if a rough one, army and police being trained, 85% of the country under control (remember that this is a 22 million person country). Is there an insurgency? Yes - and it is bad. But can you honestly say that it will get better if we leave? That is not what we are hearing from Iraq.
And believe it or not, if we leave we may actually be in violation of the UN resolution. What about that? What about the other 40 countries that are a part of our coalition, have troops there, and have lost soldiers in the war? What do we say to them?
Again - as I said before, Dems won on the "get out of Iraq" platform. Most Americans - 57% - say the Dems have no plan. So what are you going to do? Let's hear it. Stop B&Ming and start governing. Oh that's right - there are so many arguments in the Dem leadership right now that they can't focus on anything else. That's OK - you've got about 8 weeks.
Posted by: Specter at November 18, 2006 10:39 AM (ybfXM)
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specter:
"Gee Earl - Let's review the facts shall we?"
Indeed.
"Strongest economy in 40 years."
No. The housing market is terrible. The Dow Jones is not too much higher than it was when Clinton left office. Middle and lower class wage growth has fallen after inflation. National debt has doubled under W. National savings rate has fallen below zero.
"Lowest unemployment ever."
No.
"No MAJOR terror attacks on US since Clinton was sent packing (well - Gore)."
Except for 9/11, a few days after W ignored a CIA memo entitled 'Bin Laden Determined to Strike in the US'.
"Horrid, despicable, dictator deposed"
Yes and civil war as a result. Incidentally the invasion was about WMD, not deposing Saddam.
"Blooming democracy in Iraq. Economy in Iraq growing."
Where do you get this stuff? Yesterday Tony Blair agreed that Iraq "is a disaster".
"The problem is that you won't quote, or face, facts."
I've already given more hard facts than you did.
"You see - you have an unbridled hatred for
anything "Bush". It doesn't matter whether it is backed up by fact or not. I love it when you claim that all this is Bush's fault! Imagine, nothing of a terroristic nature happened before Bush right?"
Iraq is Bush's fault, full stop.
"Nothing like the first attack on the Twin Towers, nothing like the US Cole, nothing like OBL declaring war on the US in 1994, nothing like our failure in Somalia and the subsequent claim of victory by terrorists. According to your logic, all of that must have been Bush's fault because Saint Clinton never screwed up (and I will stay away from the pun inherent there)."
Idiot, I never said any of that.
"The true fact is that all of it is connected. You can't take things as static snapshots in time. Doing so is dishonest. You must look at it as a continuum - where events of the past affect the now and the future. So don't try to change the goal posts by claiming that I'm 'bitter' about Clinton. I'm not - I just happen to know the facts and live in the real world. You apparently have a problem with that."
I have a problem with denizens of Clown World, yes.
"And I brought up Carter - possible the worst president of modern times"
No, that would be W.
" - because if he had dealt forcefully with Iran back then, we might not be facing some of the problems we are today. See - history - past events affect the future. It can't be ignored. Let me give you an example. Libya and Gadaffi. Notice that when he started to rear his ugly head, the same way that Hussein did, Reagan nearly chopped it off. In fact, after forceful American action, we never really heard from Libya again, did we. Action - planned action - leads to results."
9/11 is Carter's fault. Got it.
"Now the crux. Have errors been made in Iraq? Obviously the answer is yes. Is it a total failure as you and NYNick claim? No. Hussein is gone, new government in place, democracy even if a rough one, army and police being trained, 85% of the country under control (remember that this is a 22 million person country). Is there an insurgency? Yes - and it is bad. But can you honestly say that it will get better if we leave? That is not what we are hearing from Iraq."
Again this is flat-out wrong. Iraq is a disaster. Clown Boy in Chief thought he was done in 2003. The war was premised on WMD. W had no plans for an insurgency, he expected to be greeted as a liberator. Iraq is not thriving, it is a hell hole where people are torturing eachother with drills.
"And believe it or not, if we leave we may actually be in violation of the UN resolution. What about that? What about the other 40 countries that are a part of our coalition, have troops there, and have lost soldiers in the war? What do we say to them?"
What UN resolution? God you're a nitwit.
"Again - as I said before, Dems won on the "get out of Iraq" platform. Most Americans - 57% - say the Dems have no plan. So what are you going to do? Let's hear it. Stop B&Ming and start governing. Oh that's right - there are so many arguments in the Dem leadership right now that they can't focus on anything else. That's OK - you've got about 8 weeks."
There aren't any good plans, you guys screwed it up, don't gloat that we don't know a good way to clean up your mess, neither does James Baker or Ed Meese or Cheney or anyone else. It's a disaster, as Blair said. Iraq is anarchy. There's no win to be had, the Shiites and Sunnis and Kurds loathe and distrust eachother, they are all jockying for their own goals and don't care much about making nice with eachother and forming a government.
You are one of the most deluded people I've ever encountered. You are a lifetime member of Clown World. I wonder if you'll ever see the light of day.
Posted by: Earl at November 18, 2006 03:39 PM (x3DGU)
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Well...well...well....
Let's start with this:
No. The housing market is terrible. The Dow Jones is not too much higher than it was when Clinton left office. Middle and lower class wage growth has fallen after inflation. National debt has doubled under W. National savings rate has fallen below zero.
First you pick only two real indicators of economic growth (and the stock market is at best a shaky one). The housing market has taken a downturn in the last 3 months. Before that it was booming. Hmmmm....The point on the stock market is that it is higher. It is higher, so logic follows, that it is better. If you really want to use that as a barometer it says the economy is better. Remember that Clinton left Bush with a recession. We had to get out of that first, then 911, the Katrina.
I also notice that you make no mention of GDP, low inflation, low unemployment, consumer confidence, manufacturing, etc. - in fact, other than housing, you left out every other major measure of the economy. Do a little research next time. BZZZZ....times up and you missed the secret word!
Yes and civil war as a result. Incidentally the invasion was about WMD, not deposing Saddam.
I love this Dem talking point. First off - what civil war? 22 Million people in the country, and what, a few thousand insurgents (or maybe you prefer the term freedom fighter like one of your heroes Mother Sheehan). So let's see, why, that's less than one half of one percent. And that makes a civil war? And you call me a dimwit.
The other point is almost not worth talking about because you are so uninformed that you will never get the point. But let's try, ok? The war was about far more than WMD. Have you ever read the AUMF? You know - the measure passed by of Congress that authorized the war? If not, you should, because there are many, many reasons for the authorization of the war. Find it here. You might actually be surprised that there was more to it than you read in the NYT.
Add to that, Oh Earl of Ignorance, that the Harmony project has been translating documents that show that Iraq had contacts with Al Quaeda, that Iraq had terrorist training camps, that Iraq was constantly trying to hide weapons program information from inspectors, that they even had WORKING PLANS for nuclear weapons. Have you read any of that? If not, you might want to spend a few thousand hours getting caught up with reality at the Combating Terrorism Center.
Where do you get this stuff? Yesterday Tony Blair agreed that Iraq "is a disaster".
I get it from studying Earl. Not just reading Doom and Gloom in the NYT. But what the heck - you made your entire post without one link. I'll up ya - from Squiggler, with references and links:
What your media mavens aren't telling you about Iraq while they harp hour by dreary hour on body counts and blood:
(H/T: Atlas Shrugs)
Did you know that 47 countries' have reestablished their embassies in Iraq?
Did you know that the Iraqi government currently employs 1.2 million Iraqi people?
Did you know that 3100 schools have been renovated, 364 schools are under rehabilitation,
263 new schools are now under construction and 38 new schools have been completed in Iraq?
Did you know that Iraq's higher educational structure consists of 20 Universities, 46 Institutes or colleges and 4 research centers, all currently operating?
Did you know that 25 Iraq students departed for the United States in January 2005 for the re-established Fulbright program?
Did you know that the Iraqi Navy is operational?
They have 5 - 100-foot patrol craft, 34 smaller vessels and a naval infantry regiment.
Did you know that Iraq's Air Force consists of three operational squadrons, which includes 9 reconnaissance and 3 US C-130 transport aircraft (under Iraqi operational control) which operate day and night, and will soon add 16 UH-1 helicopters and 4 Bell Jet Rangers?
Did you know that Iraq has a counter-terrorist unit and a Commando Battalion?
Did you know that the Iraqi Police Service has over 55,000 fully trained and equipped police officers?
Did you know that there are 5 Police Academies in Iraq that produce over 3500 new officers each 8 weeks?
Did you know there are more than 1100 building projects going on in Iraq?
They include 364 schools, 67 public clinics, 15 hospitals, 83 railroad stations, 22 oil facilities, 93 water facilities and 69 electrical facilities. Did you know that 96% of Iraqi children under the age of 5 have received the first 2 series of polio vaccinations?
Did you know that 4.3 million Iraqi children were enrolled in primary school by mid October?
Did you know that there are 1,192,000 cell phone subscribers in Iraq and phone use has gone up 158%?
Did you know that Iraq has an independent media that consists of 75 radio stations, 180 newspapers and 10 television stations?
Did you know that the Baghdad Stock Exchange opened in June of 2004? Did you know that 2 candidates in the Iraqi presidential election had a televised debate recently?
OF COURSE WE DIDN'T KNOW!
Verify it all at the Department of Defense website.
Wow. Actual facts. Did you ever visit the Centcom site for a reality check? Probably not. But of course you know that the NYTraitors don't either. Facts here Earl. Facts that don't support your doom and gloom. Pretty amazing isn't it? This is fun.
Idiot, I never said any of that.
No - you said:
Iraq is Bush's fault, full stop.
Now note Earl, that what I said is that the problems we are facing about TERRORISM are the result of years of not doing anything about it. The situation Iraq was in was due to years of American "diplomacy". Get a clue. I was trying to get you to understand that Iraq was not a problem that simply sprung up in the first 8 months of Bush's term. If you can't even admit that, I feel really bad. But hey - the Dems are led by that brain trust Howlin' Howie. It is noteworthy that when you can't quote fact though that you are good at calling names. LOL.
Except for 9/11, a few days after W ignored a CIA memo entitled 'Bin Laden Determined to Strike in the US'.
Got a link to that memo Earl? But like I said, obviously you believe that 911 just happened. That the pilots were all trained overnight, that the money needed was earned in just a few short weeks, etc. Really? Are you so naive as to believe that the planning did not go back well into the Clinton admin? And are you so blinded by hate that you ignore the fact that if Clinton had taken out OBL on any of the 10 separate occasions he had the chance that maybe it would not have happened? Where do you get this stuff, other that KOS...?
What UN resolution? God you're a nitwit.
Nitwit? Earl...earl...earl. What are we going to do with you. Do you really have any idea what you are saying? Have you heard of Resolution 1546? According to Maliki (I know you might not have heard of him, but he is the Prime Minister of a 22 million person country that is directly effected) there is just such a committment. You can review the interview he did with the BBC on November 7, 2006, here. Be sure to click (you do that with the thing next to your computer called a mouse) on the interview itself. Watch it. You might not look like such an idiot.
I really wish you'd quite trying to dodge the issue of why the dems were elected into power. You were elected based on lies about Iraq and the promise to get out. Now where is the plan? tic...tic...tic...clock's running....
Posted by: Specter at November 19, 2006 12:36 AM (ybfXM)
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It seems that some here are ignorant of the fact that the war with Iraq has been over for a long time and that Iraq is a sovereign country with its own duly and democratically elected government. We are not at war with Iraq anymore. We are continuing with the War on Terror and Iraq is one of many U.S. allies in that venture. Through their choice, al-Qaeda has elected to make Iraq, in particular Baghdad, their central battlefield for now.
For those of you who think that Muslim Extremist are not serious and are not something to be concerned about, take a look HERE but prepare yourself, the photos are gruesome.
This insanity about Bush is just that -- insanity. We are in this entire Middle East mess primarily because of one man and his name is Jimmah Carter. I have no love lost for Clinton and his sleaze, but at least he recognizes the dangers and although he allowed very bad advice from Albright and Berger to influence him so that he treated terrorism as a law enforcement issue instead of a war issue, he at least tried to do something.
As for what you all think you just won. Hehehehehehe -- we'll see. Polls right after the election reflect that upward of 67-70% of the people polled were very concerned that the dems might try to "cut and run" and that is not what they want. I'll try to locate the link.
Posted by: Sara (Squiggler) at November 19, 2006 01:24 AM (FwPlP)
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Earl,
Just for your education, here is the exact quote from Tony Blair that you have been harping - I would guess that you have been just skimming the headlines and not reading the stories. This is from here (emphasis mine).
In an interview Friday on Al-Jazeera's new English-language channel, broadcaster Sir David Frost suggested that the 2003 US-led and British-backed invasion had "so far been pretty much of a disaster."
"It has," Blair replied, before adding quickly: "But you see, what I say to people is why is it difficult in Iraq? It's not difficult because of some accident in planning.
"It's difficult because there's a deliberate strategy... to create a situation in which the will of the majority for peace is displaced by the will of the minority for war."
Note the words "so far" and the qualifying statements made by Blair. If you read the article - actually read it and not just the headlines, you might actually get an education.
Posted by: Specter at November 19, 2006 09:55 AM (ybfXM)
40
Where are your facts Earl? You claimed to have posted more than me...but not one link to a real data source. C'mon...you can do it? NOT!
Posted by: Specter at November 19, 2006 09:57 AM (ybfXM)
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I just read through Specter and Squiggler and here's my ten minute takeaway, that was more than enough.
Bin Laden deteremined to strike in US:
http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/04/10/august6.memo/
You're the last one to hear about this, Clown Boy. It's pretty cool how he did absolutely nothing in response. It was Carter and Clinton's fault.
"If I had known that the U.S. was going to essentially establish an occupation, then I'd say, 'Let's not do it,' " and instead find another way to target Hussein, Perle said. "It was a foolish thing to do." -- Richard Perle
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/11/18/AR2006111801076_2.html
Oh, if it's only the FIRST FOUR YEARS of a cakewalk war that are a disaster, then I guess everything's okay, right?
Sara -- right, Iraq is Carter's fault. You live deep in the heart of Clown World. "the war with Iraq has been over for a long time". Maybe in Clown World, I wouldn't know.
Is it good or bad that Bush has taken on nearly as much national debt as every president before him?
I could go on but you two are too delusional for it to be worthwhile.
Posted by: Earl at November 20, 2006 12:24 AM (x3DGU)
42
Ken 'Cakewalk' Adelman: "There are a lot of lives that are lost," Adelman said in an interview last week. "A country's at stake. A region's at stake. This is a gigantic situation. . . . This didn't have to be managed this bad. It's just awful."
Posted by: Earl at November 20, 2006 01:50 AM (x3DGU)
43
"If you mean by “military victory” an Iraqi government that can be established and whose writ runs across the whole country, that gets the civil war under control and sectarian violence under control in a time period that the political processes of the democracies will support, I don’t believe that is possible.” --Henry Kissinger
Posted by: Earl at November 20, 2006 12:50 PM (x3DGU)
44
General Barry McCaffrey (retired):
“The country is not at war. The United States armed forces and the CIA are at war. So we are asking our military to sustain a level of effort that we have not resourced,” he told Army Times.
“That’s how to break the Army is to keep it deployed above the rate at which it can be sustained,” he said. “There’s no free lunch here. The Army and the Marine Corps and Special Operations Command are too small and badly resourced to carry out this national security strategy.”
General William Odom (retired):
"Our leaders do not act because their reputations are at stake. The public does not force them to act because it is blinded by the president's conjured set of illusions: that we are reducing terrorism by fighting in Iraq, creating democracy there, preventing the spread of nuclear weapons, making Israel more secure, not allowing our fallen soldiers to have died in vain, and others.
"But reality no longer can be avoided. It is beyond U.S. power to prevent sectarian violence in Iraq, the growing influence of Iran throughout the region, the probable spread of Sunni-Shiite strife to neighboring Arab states, the eventual rise to power of the anti-American cleric Muqtada al-Sadr or some other anti-American leader in Baghdad, and the spread of instability beyond Iraq.
These realities get worse every day that our forces remain in Iraq. They can't be wished away by clever diplomacy or by leaving our forces in Iraq for several more years.
Posted by: Earl at November 20, 2006 08:56 PM (Y9zdM)
45
Earl - I asked for a link and I got one. I never said that the memo did not exist. Now, inform us oh Crusty-the-Earl, was all of that intelligence developed just during the first 8 months of the Bush administration? C'mon Earl. Be honest now. Are you really trying to get us to believe that Clinton had no knowledge of OBL's scheming? And you say I am deluded? LOL
I also noticed that you did not respond to ANY of the facts that I posted and ripped a new hole in you (and your theories). Instead you picked one small thing and trumpeted that as if by proving one thing (something I did not dispute BTW), you prove all the other convoluted and misguided things you have said.
Posted by: Specter at November 21, 2006 03:40 PM (ybfXM)
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Specter:
It doesn't matter when the intelligence was devloped, the important point is that W received a dire warning which specifically mentioned airplanes as bombs and he did not a thing, not even cut his vacation short. Yet you blame Clinton, who at least tried to get Bin Laden. It's so typical of you: Clinton's presidency marked singular moments in prosperity and peace, yet you somehow believe he's responsible for something that happened well after he stepped down. Oh, and he created a retro recession too. But this isn't what really gets my goat.
You are definitely deluded. Bush said "Mission Acomplished" about his "cakewalk" in 2003. Yet you believe that this war is normal and right, that we got exactly what we bargained for. They come up with plan after plan and nothing works any better than the last thing, and you blame Clinton and Kerry and Carter. The jig's up Specter, and I'm going to savor your every defeat in the coming months (not our military defeat, rather your political defeat).
Posted by: Earl at November 21, 2006 09:14 PM (Y9zdM)
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General Barry McCaffrey
General Barry "drug czar" McCaffrey?
Posted by: Purple Avenger at November 22, 2006 04:24 AM (wfN0Q)
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Earl,
Again, you dodged all the other issues you claimed to have the facts on and I proved you wrong. Excuse me, but what is delusion except continually moving the goal posts. Dire warning? Let's read the quote together, shall we (this is from your link - emphasis mine)?
The following is a transcript of the August 6, 2001, presidential daily briefing entitled Bin Laden determined to strike in US. Parts of the original document were not made public by the White House for security reasons.
Clandestine, foreign government, and media reports indicate bin Laden since 1997 has wanted to conduct terrorist attacks in the US. Bin Laden implied in U.S. television interviews in 1997 and 1998 that his followers would follow the example of World Trade Center bomber Ramzi Yousef and "bring the fighting to America."
After U.S. missile strikes on his base in Afghanistan in 1998, bin Laden told followers he wanted to retaliate in Washington, according to a -- -- service.
An Egyptian Islamic Jihad (EIJ) operative told - - service at the same time that bin Laden was planning to exploit the operative's access to the U.S. to mount a terrorist strike.
The millennium plotting in Canada in 1999 may have been part of bin Laden's first serious attempt to implement a terrorist strike in the U.S.
Convicted plotter Ahmed Ressam has told the FBI that he conceived the idea to attack Los Angeles International Airport himself, but that in ---, Laden lieutenant Abu Zubaydah encouraged him and helped facilitate the operation. Ressam also said that in 1998 Abu Zubaydah was planning his own U.S. attack.
Ressam says bin Laden was aware of the Los Angeles operation. Although Bin Laden has not succeeded, his attacks against the U.S. Embassies in Kenya and Tanzania in 1998 demonstrate that he prepares operations years in advance and is not deterred by setbacks. Bin Laden associates surveyed our embassies in Nairobi and Dar es Salaam as early as 1993, and some members of the Nairobi cell planning the bombings were arrested and deported in 1997.
Al Qaeda members -- including some who are U.S. citizens -- have resided in or traveled to the U.S. for years, and the group apparently maintains a support structure that could aid attacks.
Two al-Qaeda members found guilty in the conspiracy to bomb our embassies in East Africa were U.S. citizens, and a senior EIJ member lived in California in the mid-1990s.
A clandestine source said in 1998 that a bin Laden cell in New York was recruiting Muslim-American youth for attacks.
We have not been able to corroborate some of the more sensational threat reporting, such as that from a ---- service in 1998 saying that Bin Laden wanted to hijack a U.S. aircraft to gain the release of "Blind Sheikh" Omar Abdel Rahman and other U.S.-held extremists.
Nevertheless, FBI information since that time indicates patterns of suspicious activity in this country consistent with preparations for hijackings or other types of attacks, including recent surveillance of federal buildings in New York.
The FBI is conducting approximately 70 full-field investigations throughout the U.S. that it considers bin Laden-related. CIA and the FBI are investigating a call to our embassy in the UAE in May saying that a group or bin Laden supporters was in the U.S. planning attacks with explosives.
OK Crusty-the-Earl, tell me specifically which sentence said:
W received a dire warning which specifically mentioned airplanes as bombs
See Earl - the problem here is you read a headline, and then decided what the article said without reading it. What the memo actually said was there were general threat indicators, but NO SPECIFIC THREAT - especially of the kind you asserted. BZZZZZ - And the answer was wrong again Earl. Are you ever going to get anything right?
BTW - the emphasis I added showed how much your precious Clinton did to get OBL. Remember, he had 10 chances and wimped out on each one. Get a grip on reality pal.
Posted by: Specter at November 22, 2006 01:53 PM (ybfXM)
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Specter:
You're right, I guess Bush should have stayed on vacation after a PDB entitled "Bin Laden Determined to Strike in US". Okay it mentions hijacking aircraft, not aircraft as bombs, at least in the non-redacted parts. There wasn't a damn thing Clinton could do to prevent 911, except get OBL. But he's not important, remember? That's what Bush said after he skipped out of Iraq to attack a secular nation in a war on Islamic extremism.
How's the weather there in Clown Land today?
Hey, by the way, someday, years from now, when I see the textbooks portray Clinton as a successful president, and W as a humiliation, I'm going to think of you and your impotent Clown Wang and give a little chuckle.
I guess you're looking at a bright future, no?
Posted by: Earl at November 23, 2006 01:47 AM (Y9zdM)
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See Earl - you can't even admit you are wrong. How many PDB's do you think Clinton got that said basically the same thing? Like - maybe once a week? What did he do about each one? So much for your DIRE WARNING. I owned you moron!
Posted by: Specter at November 23, 2006 04:51 PM (ybfXM)
51
Get it? You post empty theory and rhetoric and I come back with fact. You can't back your crap up with fact so you make another empty statement. I shoot it down again with FACTS and then you call me delusional. What a troll. Get a grip!
Posted by: Specter at November 23, 2006 04:53 PM (ybfXM)
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Thank You Sir, May I Have Another?
SS/DD.
So much for Darwin's "survivial of the fittest."
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
09:40 AM
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November 16, 2006
Priceless
Despite my general dislike of CNN, I've got to hand it to them; they really got this perfect, both photo and headline.
Nancy's steaming, Murtha's pouting, and Hoyer's preening. Oh what a
fun Congress this promises to be.
I somehow doubt that any of us outside the Beltway fully understand what kind of damage Nancy Pelosi has done to her credibility within the Democrat ranks over the past few days. She may find a way to earn that trust back, but I suspect it won't come easy.
As
others have noted (h/t
Hot Air), Pelosi's lobbying for Murtha against Hoyer seemed from the outset to be a very petty and personal vendetta that might alienate many of the moderate Democrats that just won power two weeks ago.
With the final vote for Majority Leader coming out 149-86 in Hoyer's favor, we seem to be witnessing a potential fragmentation of the Democratic Party. The liberal leadership which now firmly holds the Speaker's post and seems primed to take over the majority of the key committee assignments is ideologically at odds with an incoming group of Congressional freshman that on average, are far more moderate in their views.
Update: Denial:
And don't shed any tears for Speaker-elect Nancy Pelosi. Even though her guy lost, this was still a big win for her. A victory for taking a stand -- and for her leadership. Because that's what real leaders do, they take stands. They listen to their hearts and follow their gut. If you only jump into the fights you're sure you can win -- notches in the W column that will look good on your political resume -- you're a hack, not someone who can move the party and the country forward. It's not about trying to have a spotless record; it's about knowing which battles are worth fighting, whatever the outcome.
It bodes well for Pelosi that was willing to spend her political capital right off the bat -- especially on the issue that will define her time at the helm. Far too many modern politicians save their political capital until it's lost all its value.
Arianna? Pelosi's already running a deficit.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
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1
With the final vote for Majority Leader coming out 149-86 in Hoyer's favor, we seem to be witnessing a potential fragmentation of the Democratic Party.
Keep dreaming. You're too used to watching partisan hackery and temper tantrums from the Bush admin the last few years - grown adults handle disagreements a little more maturely than just calling the other guys a bunch of terrorist-loving traitors.
Posted by: legion at November 16, 2006 01:50 PM (3eWKF)
2
...grown adults handle disagreements a little more maturely than just calling the other guys a bunch of terrorist-loving traitors.
Ah, but you make the unsupported assumption that politicians act like grown adults. As the picture clearly shows, it is easy to be infantile at any age.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at November 16, 2006 02:14 PM (g5Nba)
3
Just maybe, legion, you are too young to remember what Democrats in power are like. It's been a while.
Nancy just blew a big chunk of political capital for no possible big gain. Dumb.
Posted by: Lee at November 16, 2006 02:33 PM (vGlRh)
4
Oh I'm well aware of how wrong Dems in power can go. But at least now we have the possibility of some actual progress in between the corruption we just dumped and the corruption yet to come...
And I just love how rightys are portraying a pretty straightforward 149-86 referendum on the trustworthiness of Murtha vs Hoyer for #2 guy as some sort of crippling split in the Dem power base, while completely ignoring the 1-vote margin (and associated narrower mandate) the GOP just displayed in putting Trent Freaking Lott in as their own #2 guy. Sheesh.
Posted by: legion at November 16, 2006 02:44 PM (3eWKF)
5
Classic case of a dog finally catching a car after years of chasing them and having no idea what to do next.
Posted by: Alan at November 16, 2006 03:06 PM (A51La)
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Also note the description: From [far] left: Pelosi, ....
Posted by: great unknown at November 16, 2006 03:12 PM (0Co69)
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Legion
And I just love how rightys are portraying a pretty straightforward 149-86 referendum on the trustworthiness of Murtha vs Hoyer for #2 guy as some sort of crippling split in the Dem power base, while completely ignoring the 1-vote margin (and associated narrower mandate) the GOP just displayed in putting Trent Freaking Lott in as their own #2 guy. Sheesh.
House & Senate -- different animals, different agendas
Obviously you've never lived in Chicago, had an alderman walk in the booth with you to show you how the voting machine works, how to flip it for a Straight Dem ticket -- if you want that is --
Then pull the handle for you -- and tell you you're all done.
Tho raised in the Baltimore Dem Machine, That's still Pelosi style, --- She's gonna have some trouble.
Rangle is also advised to remember his powerful predecessor http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dan_Rostenkowski
Who says crime doesn't pay ? Rostenkoski's congressional retirement check is $300,000 per year (including Social Security) FOR LIFE, plus benefits. Back to the Senate -- Same for Tom Daschle and he's a young guy for a retiree .... so it's a long payout ... your tax dollars at work Legion, that's who you are slaving for till every May (annual tax freedom day). They don't prefund retirement payouts it's pay as you go in the U.S. Fed Govt.
In a class society, you're just a serf, He's Landed Gentry.
Legion .... Hmmmm I've heard that name before (Gospel of Mark 5:8-9)
Posted by: Econ-Scott at November 16, 2006 03:35 PM (AIw8T)
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That photo is priceless. I may have it blown up and use it for dart board fodder. One of my regular sent me here, thanks for the laugh!
Posted by: Jenn at November 16, 2006 04:14 PM (QD9ey)
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Econ-Scott,
While I don't doubt anything you said, what does it have to do with this thread?
Posted by: legion at November 16, 2006 05:11 PM (3eWKF)
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She's mad because her friend and favored candidate Murtha lost, Murtha's mad because he lost, Hoyer's happy because he won. What is newsworthy about this, or infantile? Those reactions are entirely normal. How are they supposed to feel? What am I missing here?
Posted by: Earl at November 16, 2006 05:36 PM (x3DGU)
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You know what you're missing, Earl? Macaca.
Posted by: jpe at November 16, 2006 05:50 PM (5ceWd)
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Has there been any speculation that Pelosi's support for Murtha goes beyond "loyalty"? Given Murtha's somewhat shady history, is it possible he has some dirt on Pelosi? It's just seemed odd to me that she continued to support him even though it's been pretty obvious for awhile that he probably did not have the votes. Or maybe she just over-estimated her own influence.
Posted by: Suds46 at November 16, 2006 06:40 PM (yTDDx)
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Once we quit weeping over what these clowns are going to do...it's going to be SUCH FUN to watch them ruin themselves. The Bolshevik Gang that Couldn't Shoot Straight.
The only thing they'll be good at is making conservatives
Posted by: El Jefe Maximo at November 16, 2006 08:08 PM (e7we+)
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the corruption yet to come...
By all indications, this new machine came preloaded with plenty of corruption.
Posted by: Purple Avenger at November 16, 2006 08:22 PM (l8HpH)
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El Jefe: Iraq, Katrina, Mission Accomplished, Osama Been Forgotten, Terry Schiavo, Tom DeLay, Jack Abramoff, Valerie Plame, WMD, Duke Cunningham, Bob Ney, Ted Haggard, George "Macaca" Allen...
You say the Dems are the gang that couldn't shoot straight. Why don't you try leaving Clown World sometime? It's not so bad out here, really, you should try it.
Posted by: Earl at November 16, 2006 09:35 PM (x3DGU)
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Purple Avenger: the current crop of Repubs and their lobbyists are the most corrupt in modern memory: Cunningham, Abramoff, DeLay, Pombo, Ney, Brent Wilkes, Dusty Foggo, Safavian, Scanlon, Pombo, Weldon, etc etc are all in jail, under investigation, or irrefutably bankrupt morally. Rumor has it that Abramoff is still singing, and this list is not complete anyway.
The Dem William Jefferson is a crook. Murtha has some questions to answer, and maybe Harry Reid does also, but these two are very small potatoes compared to what your boys are in prison for. You're seeing what you want to see.
Posted by: Earl at November 16, 2006 09:45 PM (x3DGU)
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This is a huge story. So big that about 85% of the people in the country have no idea it even happened.
Posted by: Pug at November 16, 2006 09:47 PM (P9o6O)
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the current crop of Repubs and their lobbyists are the most corrupt in modern memory
I remember the last democrat congress. It was worse.
Posted by: Purple Avenger at November 16, 2006 10:43 PM (l8HpH)
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churchill was always careful to be magnanimous in victory.
he kept chamberalin in his cabinet after replacing him.
pelosi should have been nicer to steny.
now, instead of a loyal number two, the caucus is split and her power;lessness exposed.
idiot.
and murtha - instread of fighting for the spot with everything he had, he shoulda cut n run. heh.
Posted by: reliapundit at November 16, 2006 10:49 PM (5SrUH)
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Purple Avenger: bull, and that's why you don't even try to back it up. Go on, list the Dems from 90-94 who ended up in jail or resigned in disgrace. There probably were some, but nothing like what we are seeing now.
Like I said, you see what you want to see, even when you can't even prove your beliefs to yourself.
Posted by: Earl at November 16, 2006 10:51 PM (x3DGU)
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reliapundit: a cute little baby Instapundit, heh.
It must be nice to live in a world as simple as yours. Maybe one day you'll grow up and realize that anyone who says "the left|right|GOP|Dems|whatever is the root of all evil" is a moron.
Posted by: Earl at November 16, 2006 11:00 PM (x3DGU)
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World's BEST pout! lol
Posted by: chrys at November 17, 2006 01:44 AM (jIOFZ)
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I'm not sure which network news program I saw this on, might have bee PBS, but they covered quite a bit of this press conference and the whole time Murtha was scowling, pouting and grimacing in the background, he even stalked off early and had to be dragged back for pictures. The newsreader concluded the report with this gem, "Today, the Democrats were all smiles."
Posted by: Mr. Forward at November 17, 2006 02:56 AM (QZahU)
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It bodes well for Pelosi that was willing to spend her political capital right off the bat
Funny how she gets credit for "spending political capital" over this, but the President somehow squandered his when he held a madman in Iraq accountable for his actions.
Posted by: CombatRob at November 17, 2006 08:19 AM (k2Uat)
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Hoyer wins 149-86, Trent Lott wins by one vote, yet the Democrats are the ones divided. This has been another lesson in living with adult dyslexia by the Confederate Yankee.
Posted by: Fred at November 17, 2006 09:42 AM (dbo1X)
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I remember the last democrat congress. It was worse.
I do too, PA, and you're utterly full of crap. That Congress had plenty of crooks in it, but none of them so completely reneged on their job to provide oversight that they let the President slide on so many mistakes, crimes, and screw-ups. It's their job to keep the Pres in check, and even a bad Dem Congress could do that better than this crowd of cretins that's about to get shown the door. In fact, that's _why_ they're getting shown the door.
Oh, and Earl? I'll go ahead and get this out of the way for our more right-leaning commenters: In your list of corrupt Repubs, you listed Pombo twice. That, like, totally negates your entire point!
Posted by: legion at November 17, 2006 10:37 AM (3eWKF)
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ChickenhawkRob: "Funny how she gets credit for 'spending political capital' over this, but the President somehow squandered his when he held a madman in Iraq accountable for his actions."
So you think 3,000 soldiers, billions of dollars on our national credit card, and untold civilian casualties -- with no end in sight -- are worth deposing a tin pot dictator who was a threat to no one. Clown World is full of intrigue.
Posted by: Earl at November 17, 2006 11:36 AM (x3DGU)
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Legion - thanks, they will indeed take what they can get at this stage of the game.
Posted by: Earl at November 17, 2006 11:37 AM (x3DGU)
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I'm new to this site but not new to the world. I don't think it would be a stretch to say we all know there's corruption on both sides of the aisle, but as I was reading all these blogs, I'm thinking: 'These sound like intelligent, informed people. I wonder if they're DOING anything to help improve the 'system' or just flexing their 'knowledge expounding' muscles.' I'm thinking that, with all the intelligence I see here, that someone could come up with an idea for getting this country back to the ideals of our Founding Fathers, and not just talking (or arguing)about how bad it is and which party did what (and got caught). What can we do to change things?
Posted by: mngranny at November 17, 2006 01:15 PM (Jlwx3)
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Not by the Hair of His Chinny-Chin-Chin
Rumors have long swirled that Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad was involved the 444-day Iran hostage crisis, with no less than five hostages coming forward to accuse him publicly of being one of the ringleaders. Other former hostages have said they were uncertain if Ahmadinejad was involved, while others deny his presence.
From time to time the story reemerges with a new twist, and this time that twist was provided by Russian online daily
Kommersant, which ran an English-language article with accompanying pictures that
seem to show a young Ahmadinejad leaning against the wall of the American embassy in Tehran the day it was stormed.
Texas Rainmaker is convinced that the man in the photo is Ahmadinejad, while
Daniel Pipes isn't sure, and
Allah flatly says it isn't the Iranian president.
Who's right?
I decided to see if I could get a professional to weigh in on the controversy, and so I sent a short email to several forensic photographers and biometrics experts asking their opinions, based upon the version of side-by-side comparison photo provided at
Hot Air.
Certified Forensic Photographer
Alexander Jason responded. His verdict?
With the one 1979 photo alone for comparison, it is not possible to make a strong conclusion about that man being the same man in the later photo. However, based upon an analysis of the 1979 photo and other, recent photos of Ahmadinejad, it is my preliminary conclusion that these are NOT the same person.
Some time ago, I was asked by a governmental group to perform an analysis of similar old and new photos. I still had a collection of the recent photos and I used some of them for my analysis.
While there are substantial similarities in the faces and hairlines, it is possible to have such similarities among different people, particularly when they are from a relatively homogenous racial population. The only significant difference I could detect was in the beard grown pattern: Specifically in the area beneath the lower lip. In the older photo, the man appears to have a dense, full beard in that area. In more recent photos of Ahmadinejad, he appears to have relatively sparse beard growth in that area. For that reason, based on the one old photo when compared against more recent photos, it is my opinion that they are two different people.
See the attached image.
Mr. Jason's well-trained eye caught what most of us would have missed. The armed man leaning against the embassy wall in November of 1979 has much more facial hair in the chin area than does Ahmadinejad in the present day photograph. And just in case anyone wants to speculate that Ahmadinejad could have suffered from male pattern chin baldness over time, Mr. Jason has that covered as well.
We may never know who the man with the battle rifle leaning against the U.S. embassy wall in 1979 was, but based upon the photo provided by
Kommersant and Mr. Jason's analysis, that man is
not Mahmoud Ahmadinejad.
* * *
On an unrelated note, Mr. Jason also has an interesting perspective on the
JFK assassination.
Who says those working in forensics can't have a sense of humor?
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
12:02 PM
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1
On the other hand, another notorious picture of hostage takers includes an Amadinejad look-alike with the proper facial-hair pattern:
It depends upon what your definition of "people's friend" is
Posted by: Sissy Willis at November 16, 2006 01:23 PM (FU1id)
2
I mentioned the sparse facial hair either side of center below the lip yesterday at Hot Air as the reason I did not think it was Ahmadinejad. It's not something that changes, to which I can personally attest and, I should add, is why I noticed it rather quickly.
OTOH, I'm now uneasy about concurring with a forensic photographer that holds an opinion of the JKF assassination that clearly amounts to quackery. :-)
Posted by: Dusty at November 16, 2006 02:03 PM (GJLeQ)
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Sissy,
That photo's been debunked.
Good work, CY.
Posted by: John from WuzzaDem at November 16, 2006 03:09 PM (Pt3Le)
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it doesn't matter whether he was a hostage taker or not, he is still scum that the world would be better off without...
Posted by: steve sturm at November 16, 2006 03:55 PM (UDiGL)
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I'm lost. So he hijacked the US Embassy. I'm fond of the U.S but you guys have consistently intefered with Iran for decades now and as far as I can work out, Iraq is the first time Iran has been close enough to fight proper soldiers. Which incidentally is a fight that is commonly held to be a losing battle for the US.
He's a weird character Ahmadinejad though. Typical Phd engineer. Here's some interesting video of him I came across.
http://wcbstv.com/video/?id=91788@wcbs.dayport.com
Posted by: Charles Frith at November 16, 2006 03:57 PM (fuc2r)
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Yes, Charles, you are lost and which also has little, if anything, to do with CY's post.
Posted by: Dusty at November 16, 2006 04:12 PM (GJLeQ)
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CY,
I think you mean Mr. Alexander, not Mr. Jason.
Not that there's anything wrong with that!
Buck Naked
Posted by: George Costanza at November 16, 2006 04:45 PM (D3sAj)
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Uh... If you look at a picture of me from 1979 and compare it to now, you're going to see a whole lot more hair on top of my head than there is now. In my case, the beard still grows as thickly as it did then (although the color of the hair has changed) but who is to say that Male Pattern Baldness can't strike the chin as well as the top of the head?
Posted by: The Monster at November 16, 2006 06:29 PM (tw5mW)
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That guy is too old to be Mahmoud Ahmadinejad. My guess is that is his father.
Posted by: scotty at November 16, 2006 06:51 PM (MO9mZ)
Posted by: Anonymous at November 16, 2006 09:09 PM (qf+tj)
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ahmm...has anyone ever heard of beard trimmers? Some weeks my beard below my lip is full. Some is neatly trimmed. Lets look at his nose. Flat and wide.The bags below his eyes, the large earlobes. Im more inclined to say that its an older sibbling. But not just because of facial hair trim style. Paleeeze.
Posted by: Rey at November 16, 2006 11:29 PM (vV0wU)
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From globalsecurity.org: "When the idea of storming the American embassy in Tehran was raised by the OSU, Ahmadinejad suggested storming the Soviet embassy at the same time!" (Former hostage Colonel David Roeder states: Out of his 51 interrogations, Ahmadinejad personally had conducted one-third of them!)
Posted by: MB at November 17, 2006 06:49 PM (TOHVc)
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