Confederate Yankee
December 06, 2006
Thank You
Confederate Yankee is officially a finalist for the
2006 Weblog Awards, in the category "Best of the Top 251 - 500 Blogs."
CY was also a finalist in this category last year, and we face some vey tough competition again this year.
Nominees in this category include:
Betsy’s Page
Confederate Yankee
Flopping Aces
Jarhead’s Firing Range
Point Five
Regime Change Iran
Sister Toldjah
Texas Rainmaker
The Daily Brief
Star Sailor
Blog readers can begin voting for 450 finalists in 45 categories tomorrow at the
2006 Weblog Awards. Be sure to vote for your favorites, and may the best blogs win!
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
07:08 AM
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1
Good Luck! This is my first final
Ciao! Franc.
Posted by: StarSailor at December 06, 2006 08:52 AM (rhWBH)
2
Congratulations CY. What a set of blogs that made the list. Wow. Good Luck!
Posted by: Specter at December 06, 2006 11:26 AM (ybfXM)
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Go get 'em, CY! Congrats and keep up the great work!
Posted by: cfbleachers at December 06, 2006 01:29 PM (V56h2)
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December 05, 2006
Moderately Uninformed
Writing at the Moderate Voice, Shaun Mullen gets quite a few things—almost everything—wrong, in just four short paragraphs:
Robert Gates got it wrong right out of the, er . . . gate on Tuesday in the opening session of his nomination hearing to replace Donald Rumsfeld as secretary of defense.
Gates declared that Iraq is "one of the central battlefronts" in the war on terrorism, but failed to note why. His omission compounded the biggest of President Bush's Big Lies: The U.S. didn't go to war in Iraq because it was awash with terrorists. It is awash with terrorists because Rumsfeld's horribly botched occupation opened the door to Al Qaeda and others.
Gates did get a couple of big things right: The U.S. is losing the war and the resulting mess may trigger a regional war.
His candor is a refreshing change, but I fear that Robert Gates is too little too late.
First, Gates
never claimed that we were losing in Iraq. As a matter of fact he expressly said we weren't losing (nor winning, implying a stalemate). I invite Mr. Mullen to go back and re-read what actually happened, instead of printing what he apparently wanted to hear.
I'd also point out that prior to the 2003 invasion, several terror groups called Iraq home, that Saddam paid bounties to the families of Palestinian suicide bombers, and that Abu Nidal, Abu Abbas, and Abdul Rahman Yasin, the 1993 WTC bomb builder, all lived in Iraq with Saddam's knowledge and perhaps his blessing. In addition, Iraq's intelligence services were complicit in planning, financing, training, and executing terror attacks internally and regionally. Iraq had quite a stable of terrorists and terrorist-enablers prior to the invasion, and I frankly resent Mr. Mullen's patently dishonest mischaracterization that Iraq wasn't waist-deep in terrorism.
As the Man said, the
stated objective of the invasion was "to disarm Iraq of weapons of mass destruction, to end Saddam Hussein's support for terrorism, and to free the Iraqi people."
Mullen might not like those facts, but he isn't allowed to make up his own history in response.
I will agree that the post-war occupation (the war itself lasted weeks and was a decisive U.S. victory) has been botched horribly, but it wasn't all Rummy and Bush; State and other government agencies have proven to be every bit as much incompetent as the civilian leadership at the Pentagon, even if they aren't as visible.
Mullen also seems to imply that everything going wrong in Iraq happens only as a result of U.S. actions and/or inactions, a patently dishonest rhetorical position that flies directly in the face of reality.
His position—rancid "blame America first" pabulum echoed by far too many "serious" people who should know better—ignores the fact that other regional actors such as Iran, Syria, Saudi Arabia, Jordan, etc all have the capability to influence the situation within Iraq for good, or ill.
Sadly, most Arab nations such as Saudi Arabia, Jordan, and others that could have a positive influence have adopted a mostly "hands off" policy, which had the Iraqi foreign minister
today blaming them for not doing more. The two nations that have been making a concerted effort to affect conditions in Iraq have both been negative, with Syria supporting the Baathist insurgency and Iran supporting Shiite militias. It also ignores the free will of Iraqis, some of which (particularly some of the Sunni tribes in al Anbar) is self-defeating.
Mullen’s next-to-parting shot is ignorant along those same lines, another failure of shortsightedness.
He states a U.S failure could trigger a larger regional war. I've got a news flash for him and you as well; the war between western and Islamist philosophies—the larger regional war, or if left unfinished soon, a probable world war—has been building in its latest incarnation for nearly 30 years. It is merely the latest iteration in a war over a thousand years old, and renewed conflict is a certainty. It will occur, regardless of the proximate trigger.
If we are very
very lucky we will fight this as a regional war instead of a world war, and sooner rather than later. We should fight it before bare democracies in Iraq and Lebanon fall to the influence of Shia Islamists, and preferably before Iran completes and uses nuclear weapons on Israel, wiping out the Gaza Strip and the West Bank in the process, prompting a dying Israel to launch a nuclear counterstrike that will kill tens of millions of Iranians.
Robert Gates has a terminal weakness common to many realists, the inability to realize that the "other" does not think like us, or even necessarily opposite of the way we think. The term for this sort of failure is called mirroring, an it was such disastrous thinking that convinced the Japanese 65 years ago that a strike on the U.S Naval base at Pearl Harbor would knock us out of the war.
The Japanese did not understand the psychology of America then, just as Gates, Baker, and other realists make the mistake of misunderstanding how the apocalyptic
Hojjatieh sect thinks now. The
Hojjatieh sect ruling Iran is a branch of Shia Islam so extreme that Ayatollah Khomeini outlawed it in 1983. These are not rational Cold War Russians, but zealots hoping to expedite the return of their Messiah, and they are sure that they have the Allah-given mandate to bring the Madhi back to earth through nuclear fire.
We will fight this war. The only question is how high the butcher's bill will be, which is in part determined by howe much longer we procrastinate.
Mullen fundamentally misunderstands what the nomination of Robert Gates represents. He isn't "too little, too late." The realist school of foreign policy to which Gates subscribes
created the problem with which we are now confronted.
Robert Gates may be a fine man and great public servant, but unless this leopard has changed his spots considerably, he is precisely the wrong man for the job.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
03:49 PM
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1
If Iran had even low cunning (I have no idea if they do), then they would not launch against Israel until they also had bombs for several European and American cities also. Then they would destroy NY, LA, Chicago, London, Paris, Munich, Copenhagen (gotta hate those cartoon-mongers!), Beijing, Shanghai, Tokyo, Seoul, etc.
So when Israel launches a retaliatory strike that wipes them out, they've already destroyed the Great Satan and the other infidels.
I assume that with sufficient raw material and hundreds of centrifuges spinning, this is just a matter of time.
We can hope that somehow they don't mean it, or somehow they'll fail. But hope is not a plan.
Or we can strike now, while the war can still be fought on their soil, with the death toll contained primarily to the enemy.
Posted by: Bearster at December 05, 2006 05:37 PM (YyTqJ)
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His position—rancid "blame America first" pabulum echoed by far too many "serious" people who should know better
We don't blame America.
Posted by: Sam S at December 05, 2006 10:10 PM (iBgGu)
3
If Iran had even low cunning (I have no idea if they do), then they would not launch against Israel until they also had bombs for several European and American cities also. Then they would destroy NY, LA, Chicago, London, Paris, Munich, Copenhagen (gotta hate those cartoon-mongers!), Beijing, Shanghai, Tokyo, Seoul, etc.
How's that crack-smoking thing working out for you? You do realize that you're just throwing out fear-mongering pipe dreams that will never come to pass in the real world, right?
Posted by: Arbotreeist at December 05, 2006 10:57 PM (N8M1W)
4
Facts are an unknown to the left winger's and no one can break through they're stupidity.
Saddam himself was the leader of a terrorists organization, one that was worse than anything we've ever seen (other than the left wing hero, Hitler). A look at this site should, but won't wake the left up. They will be living in their fantasy world until they die, which may not be too long off.
http://www.9neesan.com/massgraves/
Posted by: Scrapiron at December 05, 2006 11:15 PM (YadGF)
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and no one can break through they're stupidity.
classic...
Posted by: Arbotreeist at December 06, 2006 12:10 AM (N8M1W)
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We don't blame America.
Who are you going to blame when Bush is out of office though? Then it'll be back to blaming America.
Posted by: Purple Avenger at December 06, 2006 02:43 AM (RWCop)
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classic...
Damn net noobs. Don't understand a thing about netiquite and what criticism of spelling in an immediate medium implies.
Posted by: Purple Avenger at December 06, 2006 02:45 AM (RWCop)
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The fact is, there are terrorist cells out there, people that just want to do harm to others for various reasons. My question to the liberals is, if the Democrats pull us out of Iraq in early 07, where is the next battlefield going to be and who will be holding all the cards?
Posted by: Retired Navy at December 06, 2006 06:25 AM (elhVA)
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LOL....and you expect an answer from the left RN? You know better than that. Lot's of rhetoric; empty words and promises (Don't worry Mary Jo, I'll come back for you...), but no action. They still don't have a plan for Iraq - they want Bush to decide....Fine with me.
Posted by: Specter at December 06, 2006 07:46 AM (ybfXM)
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Thinking that the world would be safer with Sadaam Hussein running Iraq is a perfectly valid position.
If you suffer from severe dementia
Posted by: TMF at December 06, 2006 07:55 AM (+BgNZ)
11
Posted by Specter at December 6, 2006 07:46 AM
I know I probably won't get one, but it's actually a semi-serious question. There will be more battle grounds, maybe not the month we pull out, or even within six months but I believe there will be sooner or later. We pull stakes and have to look at our own ground, the cards in our deck are at the low end.
Posted by: Retired Navy at December 06, 2006 08:10 AM (0EcTE)
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Really OT - BUT WORTH LOOKING AT.
Xerox is sponsoring a site named Let's Say Thanks. You can go there and have a card sent to someone in the armed services for free. You don't get to pick who gets the card, but it goes to someone on active duty.
The link is: http://www.letssaythanks.com
We can all get behind this. Pass it on.
Posted by: Specter at December 06, 2006 11:17 AM (ybfXM)
13
Sorry - Live link is Let's Say Thanks
Posted by: Specter at December 06, 2006 11:21 AM (ybfXM)
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Yeah, things are going GREAT in Iraq. NOTHING TO SEE HERE, FOLKS. KEEP MOVING......
Gates, kissinger, Richard Perle, James Baker all say we can't win there-- all those damn leftists, eh?
Posted by: D-Run at December 06, 2006 02:39 PM (KUaaY)
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Scrapiron, on top of being grammatically-challenged, is an idiot.
When you write "the left wing hero, Hitler," you show your ignorance. Hitler was a Fascist; Fascsm is the farthst right one can goon the political specrum; ergo, Hitler was a right-winger. Know your history.
Posted by: chaz at December 06, 2006 02:43 PM (KUaaY)
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From TammyBruce's website comes the following quote:
"In my new book, "The New American Revolution," I explain how fascism can only spring from the Left; it is a framework that starts as an argument to elevate the oppressed, yet its true goal is to indoctrinate first its followers, and then everyone else, into accepting punishment of those who do not conform to the leftist worldview. This control and destruction of dissent is the foundation of fascism. It must be so, as the only way the Left survives is if it is able to condemn and silence its critics."
Posted by: cfbleachers at December 06, 2006 02:59 PM (V56h2)
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Posted by D-Run at December 6, 2006 02:39 PM
that didn't answer my question, it's not rhetorical. Do you see terrorism out in the world, if we stop fighting them in Iraq, where will the attack next? If they attack our soil again, who holds all the cards?
Posted by: Retired Navy at December 06, 2006 03:13 PM (8kQAc)
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60 Billion Minutes
Mark Tapscott of the Washington Examiner weighs in on how the Associated Press can extricate themselves from the Jamil Hussein/burning men story in Iraq. Sound familiar?
What AP appears not to grasp is that the most serious questions about its credibility are already in the minds of millions of people, thanks in part to the bloggers, but also to the few mainstream media organizations that have covered the growing controversy.
What is most puzzling about the AP reaction is its failure to do the one thing that would instantly put the critics in their place - produce Capt. Jamil Hussein. If he is in fact an Iraqi police captain, it is impossible to understand why he cannot be produced and his credentials verified.
"Captain Jamil Hussein" is but one of 14 Iraqi-sounding names of sources quoted by AP that U.S. military officials say cannot be verified as credible sources.
Produce Jamil Hussein.
Brilliant!
By this point, the Associated Press has almost assuredly tried to contact Jamil Hussein to come on camera, in uniform, in his police office to prove that he does in fact exist, thereby shutting down this gathering storm.
Just as assuredly, the present silence from the Associated Press on the matter indicates that they have likely failed to produce their source for over 60 news stories.
To give you an idea of the scale of this apparent fraud, consider the case of veteran freelance photojournalist Adnan Hajj from earlier this year.
Hajj was exposed for tampering with a photo from the 2006 Israeli-Hezbollah conflict, where he added dense smoke to a picture to make an Israeli bombing seem more intense than it actually was. Shortly thereafter, another manipulated photo was uncovered, and other photos came under intense scrutiny. Reuters, who had worked with Hajj for over a decade, responded by disassociating itself from him (effectively firing him) and removing all 920 photos he had for sale.
Hajj was just one reporter, caught manipulating images that most would agree over-dramatized and mis-characterized events, but images that would not have been significant news on their own if they had been real.
The story that brought into question the existence of Jamil Hussein is a much larger scandal in the making.
The allegation that six men were pulled from a Sunni mosque (one of four Sunni mosques the original story claimed were burned and blown up) by Shiite militants and then burned alive is a horrific story on multiple levels, one that media cited as a key example of how brutal sectarian violence in Iraq had come. And yet, there was an in a problem; a lack of evidence that any of the violence claimed actually took place.
Not a single one of the four mosques claimed blown up in the AP story actually were. Only one mosque could be verified to have any fire damage, and the minor damage confirmed by the Iraqi government to one mosque was consistent with unverified Shiite militia accounts that a molotov cocktail had been thrown into the building and quickly extinguished. There is zero evidence that a mosque door was blown open by an RPG as the Associated Press claimed. There is no physical evidence that six men were pulled into the street by militiamen, doused in kerosene, set on fire, and then shot in the head.
There is no physical evidence of burning men, nor bullet-scarred streets where anonymous eyewitnesses claimed the men were shot in the head once they had quit moving. There are no bodies, and no graves. There are only two named sources, one of which has recanted his story. The other named source for the AP story? Iraqi Police Captain Jamil Hussein.
Unlike Adnan Hajj who only manipulated comparatively minor photo elements and who might have gone unnoticed were it not for sharp-eyed bloggers, this AP story was immediately carried and reprinted around the world as fact. We now know that the events described may have been entirely fictionalized as part of an insurgent propaganda campaign, one foisted upon a complacent news organization with very few checks and balances for accuracy on their stringer-based reporting methods.
We also know that Jamil Hussein has consistently been a source for at least 60 news stories over two years, and that Jamil Hussein is just one of many apparently fake sources that has driven Associated Press reporting in Iraq.
This presents us with the unsettling possibility that the Associated Press has no idea how much of the news it has reported out of Iraq since the 2003 invasion is in fact real, and how much they reported was propaganda. The failure of accountability here is potentially of epic proportions.
When producer Mary Mapes and anchor Dan Rather ran faked Texas Air National Guard records on
60 Minutes, it was undoubtedly the largest news media scandal of 2004, and yet, it was an isolated scandal, identified within hours, affecting one network and one show in particular.
This developing Associated Press implosion may go back as far as two years, affecting as many as 60 stories from just this one allegedly fake policeman alone. And Jamil Hussein is just one of more than a dozen potentially fake Iraqi policemen used in news reports the AP disseminates around the world. This does not begin to attempt to account for non-offical sources which the AP will have an even harder time substantiating. Quite literally, almost all AP reporting from Iraq not verified from reporters of other news organizations is now suspect, and with good reason.
Instead of affecting one show on one network watched by 14 million viewers as Rathergate did, "Jamilgate" means the Associated Press may have been delivering news of questionable accuracy to one
billion people a day for two years or more. In this evolving instance of faux journalism, "60 Minutes" is now potentially 60
billion false impressions, or more.
A principled, professional news organization owes its consumers the truth. To date, the Associated Press, as voiced by comments from officers international editor John Daniszewski and executive editor Kathleen Carroll, has refused to address the rampant inconsistencies in the "burning men" story, produce physical evidence proving their allegations, or produce star source Iraqi Police Captain Jamil Hussein. Arrogantly, they attack the messenger (both U.S military and Iraqi government sources and bloggers), and insist we must believe them, even though they give us no compelling reason to do so, and many reasons to doubt them.
They have not proved their claims with facts, nor produced the police captain they have cited as a source on multiple stories over two years.
Their continuing failure to substantiate their story with evidence runs directly counter to these
stated principles:
For more than a century and a half, men and women of The Associated Press have had the privilege of bringing truth to the world. They have gone to great lengths, overcome great obstacles – and, too often, made great and horrific sacrifices – to ensure that the news was reported quickly, accurately and honestly. Our efforts have been rewarded with trust: More people in more places get their news from the AP than from any other source.
In the 21st century, that news is transmitted in more ways than ever before – in print, on the air and on the Web, with words, images, graphics, sounds and video. But always and in all media, we insist on the highest standards of integrity and ethical behavior when we gather and deliver the news.
That means we abhor inaccuracies, carelessness, bias or distortions. It means we will not knowingly introduce false information into material intended for publication or broadcast; nor will we alter photo or image content. Quotations must be accurate, and precise.
It means we always strive to identify all the sources of our information, shielding them with anonymity only when they insist upon it and when they provide vital information – not opinion or speculation; when there is no other way to obtain that information; and when we know the source is knowledgeable and reliable.
The Associated Press is guilty of using a
terminally flawed newsgathering methodology that makes their news organization an easy target for those desiring to insert of propaganda as news. What's worse is that their leadership clearly doesn't care.
The leaders of the Associated Press seem to have little interest in living up to their own stated values and principles, and in doing so, have betrayed that essential trust that they must have to survive.
Noted photojournalism expert, author, and professor David Permutter of the William Allen White School of Journalism & Mass Communications at the University of Kansas
noted during the height of the journalistic controversies of the Israeli-Hezbollah war in Lebanon:
The Israeli-Hezbollah war has left many dead bodies, ruined towns, and wobbling politicians in its wake, but the media historian of the future may also count as one more victim the profession of photojournalism. In twenty years of researching and teaching about the art and trade and doing photo-documentary work, I have never witnessed or heard of such a wave of attacks on the people who take news pictures and on the basic premise that nonfiction news photo- and videography is possible.
I'm not sure, however, if the craft I love is being murdered, committing suicide, or both.
The wounds, in this case, are assuredly self-inflicted.
Update: As if to
underscore that point (via
Instapundit):
In nearly every conversation, the soldiers, Marines and contractors expressed they were upset with the coverage of the war in Iraq in general, and the public perception of the daily situation on the ground. The felt the media was there to sensationalize the news, and several stated some reporters were only interested in “blood and guts.” They freely admitted the obstacles in front of them in Iraq. Most recognized that while we are winning the war on the battlefield, albeit with difficulties in some areas, we are losing the information war. They felt the media had abandoned them.
During each conversation, I was left in the awkward situation of having to explain that while, yes, I am wearing a press badge, I'm not 'one of them.' I used descriptions like 'independent journalist' or 'blogger' in an attempt to separate myself from the pack.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
12:08 PM
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1
Captured documents and questioning of prisoners have all indicated the terrorists were planning to 'use' the media to their advantage. It is now clear that the ASSociated (with terrorists) Press went for the bait full steam ahead. They're only source of news from Iraq in now that which they are fed by the terrorists.
No one can or should ever again depend on the AP for the truth about anything. It is either deliberate lies or laziness, Take your choice but the truth is not in them anymore.
Posted by: Scrapiron at December 05, 2006 01:26 PM (Eodj2)
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Well, it was bound to happen.
McNews has arrived.
Over 1 billion ill served.
Welcome to the new fast food news services. You can order off the combined menu from AP, Reuters, BBC, CNN or the NYTimes. (you can order from ABC, CBS, NBC...but is usually just warmed over news from yesterday)
You can't order any facts or truth...but if you want a whopper or two to go, they are happy to serve them up. You want lies with that?
Half-baked conspiracy theories are a favorite. If you are in a rush, the cutn'run "blue state chicken" can be had usually in the first week in November.
Occasionally, the McFib sandwich is brought back as a regional delicacy.
As a giveaway this week, McNews is offering a poster and small CD of the Captain and Jamil's favorite hits. "Fraud Will Keep Us Together" and the ode to Green Helmet Guy and his repeating staging of phony fauxtography events "Do That to Them One More Time" digitally remixed.
McNews, when you can't get it right, get it fast.
Posted by: cfbleachers at December 05, 2006 02:25 PM (V56h2)
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I blame the stringers, but everyone is responsible. I believe the local reporters have their own personal adgendas and are probably in collusion with the enemy. However, I think you will see that the bureau reporters and editors know what is going on. How many times have you seen severely slanted articles get published, only to have the wording changed minutes later. I am still in shock that yesterday, one of AP's articles by Qais Al-Bashir described Anbar Province as "where many of Iraq's Sunni Arab insurgent groups are based and where many U.S. Marines die in battles with the militants." It was up for about an hour like then, when it was suddenly changed to say that Anbar was "roughly the size of North Carolina." I think that this is an example of an editor trying to tame down a horrifically biased article written by a local Iraqi, sympathetic to the insurgency. Think of the articles that we DON'T see.
Posted by: BohicaTwentyTwo at December 05, 2006 02:41 PM (oC8nQ)
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The responsibility for this fraud lays squarely upon the shoulders of the owners of the media, who are more concerned with profit than truth. They'll print anything that people will buy. And the greater their readership, the more they can charge for ads. Their sole responsibility is to the bottom line. Profit before principle.
Posted by: USAR65 at December 05, 2006 03:49 PM (tcht9)
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USAR65:
While I do not doubt that profit is the greatest concern of media owners, destroying the credibility of their brand through misinformation is not the way. And I suspect that many know this fact (certainly the LA Times is quickly becoming aware of that little nugget of truth).
Like Hollywood's insistence on producing unpopular and unprofitable movies and blacklisting potentially popular--but not politically correct--screenplays, there is more going on here than the simple profit motive.
I don't think that the AP intentionally transmitted terrorist propaganda as much as it embraced that same propaganda (and the mysterious "Captain") uncritically because the terrorist narrative matched the narratives believed and promulgated by AP.
Posted by: iconoclast at December 05, 2006 06:33 PM (Jpc2l)
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I understand the profit before principle motive, I truly do. And some very good people believe that it's all about money.
But, IF that was true...then one would think that at least SOME of the stories coming from the organizations....would be targeting a broader market.
Why is it that ONLY leftist agenda items get placed and ALL the distortions and lies are uncovered with a leftist tilt????
I no longer believe an ounce of the argument that the Ministry of Media is motivated by greed. The NYTimes and the network news broadcasts have been steadily LOSING market share, due to their dogma inspired leftist leanings. (and their vicious mendacity against America and to a lesser extent, Israel)
Motivations of pure profit would suggest that they would tell ANY story, with ANY viewpoint...as long as it brought in dollars.
This is not true at all. In fact, the opposite seems to be the case. They will abandon their shareholders interests to advance the interests of leftist dogma...and they will freely abandon any semblance of journalistic integrity (now, an oxymoron) because they believe the ends justify the means.
Posted by: cfbleachers at December 05, 2006 06:34 PM (V56h2)
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You bring up a good point. Has anybody seen Mary Mapes and Capt. Jamil Hussein in the same room together?
Posted by: GeorgiaBoy at December 05, 2006 07:03 PM (E78xG)
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AP's failure to produce Jamil Hussein indicates they're hunkered down in the bunker hoping this will blow over.
If they could have they would have, to give the despised bloggers a black eye.
Too bad AP is a co-op, if they'd been a publicly traded company I would have shorted their stock when this first broke. Its not going away, and their rep is going to be in tatters when its over because of the denial approach they've chosen.
Posted by: Purple Avenger at December 05, 2006 08:38 PM (p9O/F)
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Excellent work. I excerpted and linked at Right and Wong (Updated and bumped, twice) -- CENTCOM says AP’s "Iraqi police source" isn’t Iraqi police -- Part 10
Posted by: Bill Faith at December 05, 2006 09:35 PM (n7SaI)
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Since the AP is a not for profit coop with oversight provided by 22 (!) members of the board, it is highly unlikely that we will see any sort of retraction. What is the downside of ignoring bloggers and the weak investigation of a few MSM reporters? Limited to none, of course. No stockholders to answer to, just a few concerned publishers out of the 1,500 that own the coop. Who can be readily ignored as well. And with such a huge board, little will be driven from the top down as well.
So ignore the small furor and the executives keep their positions, the board members are not embarrassed, and (most importantly) the narrative remains the same flawed storyline.
OTOH, if the AP were to admit that its stories were false and enemy propaganda and that for the last two years 1,500 newspapers had been publishing those false stories then all sorts of hell would break loose. Executives would get reprimanded and/or fired. Board members charged with oversight would be embarrassed at the least. Owner newspapers would be forced to print retractions that would call into doubt their breathless repetition of the "we are losing, Iraq was a mistake, Bushitler, etc." narrative.
Even worse, from AP's point of view, would be the next natural question once the misreporting from Iraq was admitted. Just how endemic is the methodology at the AP that allowed for enemy propaganda to be published on the front pages of USA's newspapers? Just how deep does the rot go? Do stringers from China? Russia? Venezuela? report uncorroborated stories that are uncritically accepted? And how far back does this rot go?
So without any effective outside pressure (public opinion doesn't really count, since this is truly an inside baseball kind of scandal), I cannot imagine seeing the AP executives actually admitting to this sort of malfeasance.
Posted by: iconoclast at December 06, 2006 11:11 AM (Jpc2l)
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I saw Marvin Kalb (a big lib journalism expert)give a speech at the D.C. Press Club on C-Span last week. During Q+A, Mr. Kalb admonished anyone in the audience who would place internet/blog journalism on the same level as mainstream media journalism. His case in point was the recent AP flap over the "six sunnis on fire" story. He said that he would take the word of the AP over any internet journalist everytime, no questions asked.
I found that to be an interesting position for such an accomplished journalist to take.
Posted by: Brian at December 08, 2006 01:35 PM (5UB/P)
12
In the face of fresh criticism from the New York Post, AP has responded again, huffing and puffing at anyone who would dare question their probity.
It adds up to the same thing as before, with extra vituperation: "How dare you question us, you pajamahadin? We've sent Top Men in to confirm the story! It's a dangerous area, and we're the only ones who've gone there! No one who's gone there questions the story!" (That latter claim, BTW, is completely false.)
What the AP response doesn't do: Produce Jamil Hussein. Provide a single verifiable source for the story. Address the fact that other components of the story have been shown to be completely false (no four mosques involved). Name ANY of the "journalists" whom AP claims later confirmed the story. Provide ANY evidence at all that the alleged incident ever occured, other than additional unnamed and anonymous sources to bolster the Incredible Invisible Jamil Hussein.
Amount of evidence provided by AP to date: Their unsupported word, an invisible and unfindable police captain who cannot even be shown to exist, and a large raft of snotty ad hominem for anyone who questions it. That's it.
Posted by: Tully at December 08, 2006 03:09 PM (kEQ90)
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I do not see the big deal, there is a hell of a lot more violence going on in Iraq that just the burning of 5 or 6 sunnis, how about the dozens that turn up dead everyday with holes drilled with electric drills in the back of their heads ??, the favorite method of Iranian revolutionary guards in the Interior ministry ??, there were more than 3,000 iraquies dead last month in Baghdad alone, what about the rest of the country ???, these people are savages, pure and simple, they are not like us, they do not think like us, they do not act like us, so this bloody iraq mess is a useles and worthless expenditure of money and lives.
my 2 cents
Posted by: jacaver at December 08, 2006 08:22 PM (kHO5i)
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Is it sloppy, unprofessional journalism? Na, they have an agenda to propagate. Making up a few stories to advance one’s world view seems to be acceptable these days in journalism. AP just got caught. Guess is sloppy, unprofessional journalism after all.
Posted by: Jivari at December 09, 2006 02:57 AM (36TV2)
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December 04, 2006
Associated/Depressed
The Associated Press scandal-without-a-catchy-name* continues today, as Tom Zeller Jr, of the NY Times bends over backwards to provide cover for the AP’s abortive attempts to brush aside the continuing criticism of their reporting of an incident where mosques and people reputedly burned during a Shiite rampage in a Sunni enclave in Baghdad.
Taking the opposite tack,
Boston Herald City Editor Jules Crittenden rips into the AP on his
blog, his
column, and on
Fox News.
For those of you who might have forgotten how this got started, it went a little something
like this:
Six burned alive in Iraq
The Associated Press
BAGHDAD, IRAQ -Revenge-seeking militiamen seized six Sunnis as they left Friday prayers and burned them alive with kerosene in a savage new twist to the brutality shaking the Iraqi capital a day after suspected Sunni insurgents killed 215 people in Baghdad's main Shiite district.
Iraqi soldiers at a nearby army post failed to intervene in Friday's assault by suspected members of the Shiite Mahdi Army militia or subsequent attacks that killed at least 19 other Sunnis, including women and children, in the same neighborhood, the volatile Hurriyah district in northwest Baghdad, said police Capt. Jamil Hussein.
Most of the thousands of dead bodies that have been found dumped across Baghdad and other cities in central Iraq in recent months have been of victims who were tortured and then shot to death, according to police. The suspected militia killers often have used electric drills on their captives' bodies before killing them. The bodies are frequently decapitated.
But burning victims alive introduced a new method of brutality that was likely to be reciprocated by the other sect as the Shiites and Sunnis continue killing one another in unprecedented numbers. The gruesome attack, which came despite a curfew in Baghdad, capped a day in which at least 87 people were killed or found dead in sectarian violence across Iraq.
In Hurriyah, the rampaging militiamen also burned and blew up four mosques and torched several homes in the district, Hussein said.
Residents of the troubled district claim the Mahdi Army has begun kidnapping and holding Sunni hostages to use in ritual slaughter at the funerals of Shiite victims of Baghdad's raging sectarian war.
Such claims cannot be verified but speak to the deep fear that grips Baghdad, where retaliation has become a part of daily life.
President Jalal Talabani emerged from lengthy meetings with other Iraqi leaders late Friday and said the defense minister, Abdul-Qader al-Obaidi, indicated that the Hurriyah neighborhood had been quiet throughout the day.
But Imad al-Hasimi, a Sunni elder in Hurriyah, confirmed Hussein's account of the immolations. He told Al-Arabiya television he saw people who were drenched in kerosene and then set afire, burning to death before his eyes.
Two workers at Kazamiyah Hospital also confirmed that bodies from the clashes and immolation had been taken to the morgue at their facility.
They refused to be identified by name, saying they feared retribution.
And the Association of Muslim Scholars, the most influential Sunni organization in Iraq, said even more victims were burned to death in attacks on the four mosques. It claimed a total of 18 people had died in an inferno at the al-Muhaimin mosque.
That is how the story was reported by the Associated Press, and yet, much of what was stated in this article is unsubstantiated. In fact, this may be a story that never was.
We know several things about this original article are categorically false. We know that though the Associated Press article claims four mosques were burnt and blown up, that simply didn’t happen. One mosque had its doorway set on fire which was extinguished, and graffiti was painted on the building. Limited fire damage and spray paint on one mosque is a far, far cry for four mosques being blown up.
We also know that "police Capt. Jamil Hussein," who was the key witness leaning credibility to the AP’s allegations, simply does not exist. The Iraqi interior ministry has confirmed that they have no employees by the name of Jamil Hussein, as a police captain or otherwise… and yet, the fictional Captain Hussein has been a source in no fewer than
61 AP stories.
al-Hasimi (alternately al-Hashimi), the Sunni elder who is credited with witnessing the attack in the original story, now says that he did not.
Even the most key element of the story, that six men had been burned alive, seems to be false.
Nevertheless, the AP circled the wagons and continues to insist the story is real, despite the overwhelming evidence that mosques were not burned and blown up. 18 people did not die "in an inferno" at the al-Muhaimin mosque, for the al-Muhaimin mosque was never destoryed, just as six men were never pulled into the street, doused in kerosene, and set on fire.
This entire series of events is an apparent fiction from which the Associated Press will not back down, and a lie to which the
new York Times seems
unwilling to seriously question.
There are no charred bodies numbering between 6-18, nor four blown-up mosques, nor a police captain named Jamil Hussein who has been cited in 61 media reports. In one of the most graphic images of sectarian violence manufactured in the Iraq war yet, this incident seems quite entirely fabricated out of thin air. No other news organization will back the Associated Press’s account of burning mosques and men. Even Rueters cannot find the artificial police captains or anonymous sources to back such a claim.
If the Associated Press produces evidence that Jamil Hussein exists, or else admits that they were duped as part of a long running insurgent propaganda campaign, we can at least say the Associated Press got the wrong facts via an honest attempt to report the news. They can then go back and see if they can verify if the other 60 stories they wrote consulting the imaginary captain were real, or also part of a work of extended insurgent fiction.
Instead of looking for the truth, however, Kathleen Carroll seems to be rallying the troops around a "fake, but accurate" defense.
That response hasn't worked out too well for Mary Mapes and Dan Rather, and I suspect that it won't work much better for Kathleen Carroll, and the curiously incorporeal captain, Jamil Hussein.
* Not that it matters, but my vote goes for "Imaginary Friendgate."
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
04:32 PM
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1
I know HotAir is using Jamilgate. I prefer comparing the "Capt. Jamil Hussein-Watch" to Groundhog Day. If AP can produce the fictional character and make him see his shadow, we can expect six more months of Anti-American reporting from the MSM. Oh, and on a similar note AP's official description of Anbar Province is the place "where many of Iraq’s Sunni Arab insurgent groups are based and where many U.S. Marines die in battles with the militants." That's accoring to AP Writer QAIS AL-BASHIR.
Posted by: BohicaTwentyTwo at December 04, 2006 05:04 PM (oC8nQ)
2
CY...AP duped trying to report honest facts AFTER USING THE GUY 61 TIMES???? I know you are trying to be generous and reasonable...but, c'mon!
They said they had been IN HIS OFFICE, checked him out AND STAND BEHIND HIM. If he's not a captain and is duping them, they have to more stupid than Sgt Schultz in Hogan's Heroes. That's not being "duped" that being an accomplice in foisting an intentional lie on the American public, CY.
If they had used him once, said that they had never been in his office at the police station,...maybe we could give them a pass. The malignancy is not confined to AP...it is a now a virulent sepsis coursing through the very bloodlines of the old media. They are now quite apparently willing to operate as the propaganda arm of the enemy. Reuters, BBC, CNN, NYTimes have all been caught red-handed undertaking nefarious acts on behalf of enemies of state. ABC, CBS and NBC news are more than happy to work side by side with them.
This is no longer even open for serious debate, no matter how hard they try to obscure the facts of their own complicity. Bloggers have saved America (so far), in my opinion.
I think we owe a debt of gratitude to Glenn, Charles and guys like you. I really do.
But, I'm tired of trying to find some "less offensive" way of saying this: The Ministry of Media...not only supports the enemy...they are the enemies...of truth.
Posted by: cfbleachers at December 04, 2006 06:26 PM (V56h2)
3
One other thing, CY...this Vapor Caper with Captain Invisible would be just a blip on the radar screen (again...since the Ministry of Media refuses to pick up a story when their own leftist agenda is caught in a yet another bald faced lie)...but NBC and Matt Liar RELIED on this to say that there was civil war already breaking out in Iraq.
They not only use lies to promote leftist propaganda...they use lies...to promote BIGGER lies.
The Vapor Caper and Captain Invisible needs to be exposed fully...it is NOT enough to simply let this one die....like all the other have. Quietly. It's time to start making a list and checking it twice.
Posted by: cfbleachers at December 04, 2006 07:03 PM (V56h2)
4
I guess it is a lot easier and safer to sit in a hotel in the green zone with an Iraqi hooker and buy 'war stories' from the terrorists than it is to go out in the field. 61 stories from one terrorists. How many other terrorists are they buying 'war stories' from? That means that everything you have read or heard with an ASSociated (with terrorists) Press byline has a 99 44/100% chance of being a lie. How many years have we been listening to these lies. We know it started in Vietnam and has never let up. Sure makes me happy that I cancelled my subscription to the Media General rag two years ago. Now when the set up their little booth in the mall and offer to give me a free copy and try to get me to subscribe I tell them there is no benefit to the paper once you read the comic strips.
Posted by: Scrapiron at December 05, 2006 12:50 AM (Eodj2)
5
How about this for a title.
Phantom Fire strikes the Invisible Six.
News at 11.
Posted by: Retired Navy at December 05, 2006 06:43 AM (BuYeH)
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Boo Freaking Hoo
I hope that you are sitting down as you read this, because the surprise of what I am about to tell you will make you weak in the knees:
The
NY Times has
published an article with the apparent goal of trying to generate sympathy for a terrorist.
Shocking, I know.
And before you ask, yes, the
Times is quite willing to help his defense team work on a new angle.
Now lawyers for Mr. Padilla, 36, suggest that he is unfit to stand trial. They argue that he has been so damaged by his interrogations and prolonged isolation that he suffers post-traumatic stress disorder and is unable to assist in his own defense. His interrogations, they say, included hooding, stress positions, assaults, threats of imminent execution and the administration of “truth serums.”
Just one problem with that angle:
A Pentagon spokesman, Lt. Col. Todd Vician, said Sunday that the military disputes Mr. Padilla’s accusations of mistreatment. And, in court papers, prosecutors deny “in the strongest terms” the accusations of torture and say that “Padilla’s conditions of confinement were humane and designed to ensure his safety and security.”
“His basic needs were met in a conscientious manner, including Halal (Muslim acceptable) food, clothing, sleep and daily medical assessment and treatment when necessary,” the government stated. “While in the brig, Padilla never reported any abusive treatment to the staff or medical personnel.”
Jose Padilla, the violent gang-banging ex-con Muslim convert from Chicago who attempted to murder and maim his fellow Americans in a dirty bomb attack, is once again painted as the victim by the
New York Times.
Color me unimpressed.
Update: For the record, for my "netroots" visitors...
The 4th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals said that the Executive Branch
does have the legal right to hold Padilla. I'm sorry that your "reality-based" worldview won't accept it, but the courts have already decided that the President
does have the authority to militarily detain:
...a citizen of this country who is closely associated with al Qaeda, an entity with which the United States is at war; who took up arms on behalf of that enemy and against our country in a foreign combat zone of that war; and who thereafter traveled to the United States for the avowed purpose of further prosecuting that war on American soil, against American citizens and targets.
That narrowly defines that the Executive does have the legal, quite Constitutional right to make specific detentions.
That narrow definition should also belay the squawkings of the hyper-emotive, Chicken Little leftists that still insist, against all factual evidence to the contrary, that Bush can through anyone in jail at any time, for any reason, without hope of a trial.
It won't, of course.
Little things like facts and court decisions just get in the way of their essential "truthiness" that President Bush is a big old evil fascist, and that what really matters, facts be damned.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
09:57 AM
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1
Padilla has not been charged with plotting a dirty bomb attack. For almost three years he was held and not charged with anything except allegations made by John Ashcroft in a press conference. After a judge ordered Padilla charged or released, the government did not allege anything about a dirty bomb attack in their indictment.
Padilla is an American citizen. If they prove he's done what you and John Ashcroft allege he should be sent to prison for the rest of his life.
Until they prove it, however, he's presumed innocent. That's the American way, whether guys like you like it or not. You seem to prefer that American citizens no longer have basic contitutioinal rights.
Posted by: Pug at December 04, 2006 10:25 AM (r5zYa)
2
According to the a three-judge panel of the 4th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals, the President does have the right to hold Padilla. You may not like it, but that is the law, as affirmed by the courts.
A dirty bomb plot may have been what attracted attention to Padilla, but that doesn’t necessarily mean that the investigation would or had to lead specifically to those charges. If the collection of evidence led to other charges more easily proven, I can’t blame prosecutors for going for the more-certain conviction.
As for your hyperbole, pug, I find it unimpressive.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at December 04, 2006 11:35 AM (g5Nba)
3
What hyperbole, Yankee? Pug pointed out that Padilla's an American citizen, and that his basic constitutional rights (not to be held indefinitely, without trial) have been ignored by the Bush Administration. It took a court order after three years of this for the Bush Admin. to even start the process mandated by the Constitution of the United States.
It's not hyperbole, it's reality -- the Bush White House believes that its own desires trump the Constitutional rights of American citizens. And this isn't the only case... warrantless wiretapping, anybody? They had a legally-approved method to get a warrant, and they still ignored it. It's not hyperbole if it's happening as described.
Posted by: zadig at December 04, 2006 11:55 AM (xIJcT)
4
I agree with CY! We need to throw out The Constitution when it is inconvenient! In fact, we should sacrifice our rights, our children, our treasure, and our way of life just to defeat the threat posed by these people! After all, the only way we're going to defeat these bloody Islamofascists is if we show them we can be even more tyrannically insane then they are!
Posted by: O'Brien at December 04, 2006 12:03 PM (hW9xi)
5
Yeah, no hyperbole here. Just us tyrannically insane folks with no constitutional rights.
Posted by: BohicaTwentyTwo at December 04, 2006 12:10 PM (oC8nQ)
6
Put him in jail with the general population, identify him as a gang member and which gang. He won't last a week. Another of the terrorists loving dimmi's will shaft him in more ways than one.
Posted by: Scrapiron at December 04, 2006 12:10 PM (YadGF)
7
Um, Scrapiron? Are you really advocating taking an American citizen who has only been charged and not yet convicted of any crime at all, and putting him in jail hoping he'll be killed by another prisoner? In essence, advocating the death penalty for someone not yet found guilty of anything?
I hope you're from another country, scrapiron, because that's not really a position I'd expect a real American to take. In the America where I grew up, we had this little thing called "due process," and we were very proud of the theory of "innocent until proven guilty."
Posted by: zadig at December 04, 2006 12:16 PM (xIJcT)
8
Absolutely, Bohica;
We need to throw US citizens into jail without a trial and without charging them of any crimes and leave them in isolation for as long as we possibly can (it's been 3 years for Padilla)! Of course, that's not what The Constitution says, so we better just ignore it!
Posted by: O'Brien at December 04, 2006 12:19 PM (hW9xi)
9
Learn to read, zadig.
The 4th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals said that the Executive Branch does have the legal right to hold Padilla. I'm sorry that your "reality-based" worldview won't accept it, but the courts have already decided that the President does have the authority to militarily detain:
...a citizen of this country who is closely associated with al Qaeda, an entity with which the United States is at war; who took up arms on behalf of that enemy and against our country in a foreign combat zone of that war; and who thereafter traveled to the United States for the avowed purpose of further prosecuting that war on American soil, against American citizens and targets.
Your concerns that everyone can be tossed in jail at any time for any reason has no basis in anything other than alarmist prattle.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at December 04, 2006 12:28 PM (g5Nba)
10
You guys that are arguing against Padilla being in jail really need to understand how the American Justice System works. OK - let's charge with attempted mass-murder (doesn't really matter if there is evidence or not), slap him with a $10mil bail (or maybe $1 mil for every "potential" victim), and guess what? He sits in jail indefinitely - for years and years - with the general population, unless he asks for protective custody.
Eventually he gets a trial - eventually. But remember, there really is not such thing as a speedy-trial when prosecutors decide there isn't. So all that time passes while a man, not convicted of anything, sits in jail. Go read some case studies. You will find out that I am speaking the truth.
Just because you have rights as an American citizen, doesn't give you a magic "get out of jail free" card. If they want to hold you, they can.
BTW - shackling prisoners for transport from place to place happens every day in our prisons. There is nothing unusual there. Especially in Super-Max prisons. The goggles and noise protection was a bit over the top though. Prisoners are also subjected to periods of solitary confinement all the time. 3 years? Seems like a lot, but then again, in a regular prison it probably would be to protect his life. Even in Protective Custody he would probably be in his cell most of the day. Learn....before you speak.
Posted by: Specter at December 04, 2006 12:39 PM (ybfXM)
11
Again, I agree with CY, even though the Federal Government has shown no evidence of a connection between Mr. Padilla and Al Qaeda. Nor has it shown evidence of any attempt by Mr. Padilla to commit any terrorist acts. It's obvious that we should just take the Government's word on this as no one there ever lies to get what they want!
And that $2 million they're paying to that attorney out in Oregon for defamation; well, that's just a good faith payment. Obviously, the Government wasn't wrong about him. They just only have a single isolation cell where they can throw somebody indefinitely. But they're building new ones as we speak!
Posted by: O'Brien at December 04, 2006 12:42 PM (hW9xi)
12
Nice try, Yankee... the Bush Administration, knowing that on appeal the 4th circuit decision would be thrown out, decided to stop holding Padilla indefinitely rather than face the Supreme Court. See this link for a summary.
From the link:
But last year, in what was widely seen as an attempt to avoid a potentially adverse U.S. Supreme Court ruling on the constitutionality of President Bush's actions, Padilla's case was abruptly transferred back to a regular criminal court, where he was indicted on charges that he was part of a North American “jihad” cell that supported Islamic extremists overseas. The indictment made no mention of any plans to set off a “dirty bomb”;
I can read just fine... I can also see when the Constitution is being pounded by people who swore to uphold it, and lied in the process.
Posted by: zadig at December 04, 2006 12:43 PM (xIJcT)
13
I agree with Specter. No one should expect to get a speedy trial, even though it says so in The Constitution. And the Government should have the right to throw Mr. Padilla in jail for as long as they want without charging him, because that's what the Government did. They didn't charge him for 3 years. They decided to charge him now, adding him as a defendant to the Miami Karate chop Kicking Islamofascists who were maybe contemplating a terrorist act on their day off after they might maybe could have figured out how to use the internets.
And, of course, the Government doesn't make mistakes, even though they designated a California Quakers group as a terrorist organization. You gotta watch out for them their quakers. They might pray you to death.
Posted by: O'Brien at December 04, 2006 12:49 PM (hW9xi)
14
You're kidding me, right? A Michael Isikoff article on MSNBC is your "evidence"?
Isikoff also cited "widely seen" evidence of prisoner abuse including Koran's being flushed, and the resulting outrage on the infamous "Muslim street" led to 15 deaths. The only problem was that the events never took place.
Give me direct evidence of who "widely seen" is, naming names and providing links, and I'll be happy to discuss the issue, just don't provide vague assurances from a liar like Isikoff and expect me to find him credible.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at December 04, 2006 12:57 PM (g5Nba)
15
I agree with CY. There is no evidence that Padilla has been held for 3 years without a trial. It could have been a secret trial where John Ashcroft presided and Attorney General Gonzalez was the prosecutor. Padilla, of course, since he's an insane terrorist, defended himself.
And as for being held in isolation for 3 years; why, wouldn't we all like to take a break from having to deal with the rest of humanity; have time for our thoughts (and only our thoughts as it seems Padilla was allowed no outside reading materials. You never know what kind of bomb he could have made from the pages of Sports Illustrated).
Posted by: O'Brien at December 04, 2006 01:10 PM (hW9xi)
16
Jeez, you're in denial, Yankee. How about a Washington Post article:
In requesting the transfer to Justice Department custody, the government suggested that the 4th Circuit vacate its ruling allowing Padilla to be held as an enemy combatant. But the 4th Circuit yesterday also refused to lift the earlier decision and suggested that the Justice Department request was made to avoid further judicial scrutiny.
The judges said prosecutors had left "an appearance that the government may be attempting to avoid consideration of our decision by the Supreme Court." They said they welcomed Supreme Court intervention because of the "enormous implications" of the Padilla case.
So here's a judge saying that the gov't was ducking a Supreme Court review of the decision, instead of Isikoff. Happy now? Are you ready to admit that the government is thrashing the Constitution within an inch of its life? Or are you happy with your own version of "truthiness"?
Posted by: zadig at December 04, 2006 01:11 PM (xIJcT)
17
Oh, look, here's another link backing me up from the Christian Science Monitor.
The 4th US Circuit Court of appeals in Richmond said that, by seeking to transfer Mr. Padilla to civilian custody after holding him for more than three and a half years without charge as an enemy combatant, the Bush administration appeared to be trying to "manipulate" the system to prevent the higher court from hearing the issue. The opinion, written by Judge Michael Luttig, a conservative jurist who had recently been considered a possible Supreme Court nominee, was considered a setback for the Bush administration.
Posted by: zadig at December 04, 2006 01:13 PM (xIJcT)
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Confederate Yankee:
Your link to the CNN article, published in May of '05, is a clear example of a biased person being disingenuous. A simple Google search will reveal the following (as you no doubt know, but failed to point out, just like a prosecutor who withholds exculpatory evidence):
THE PENTAGON admitted to at least five cases of "mishandling" The Koran in June of '05:
"The U.S. military released new details yesterday about five confirmed cases of U.S. personnel mishandling the Koran at the prison in Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, acknowledging that soldiers and interrogators kicked the Muslim holy book, got copies wet, stood on a Koran during an interrogation and inadvertently sprayed urine on another copy."
Oh, and I expect you to believe that the urine was indeed sprayed "inadvertently", that none of the incidents were intentional, and that these were the only five instances.
Here's the link to the WaPo article:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/06/03/AR2005060301654.html
Tony C.
Posted by: Tony C. at December 04, 2006 01:16 PM (kMC/P)
19
OBrien,
Your lack of knowledge on how the system is showing. Yes - the Constitution, and the state-constitutions all say that there is a right to speedy trial. What you don't get, is that those are words, and they aren't necessarily taken to heart. Should they be? Of course. But, in practice - IOW - in REAL LIFE (as opposed to utopian dreams of people who don't really know how it works - kind of like you) - many, many people sit incarcerated for years and years due to high bond/bail, and prosecutorial foot dragging (or even defense foot dragging).
You will note that most of these same governing bodies have laws that say, in effect, "There will be no ureasonable bond set". But again, in real life, that may not hold true. We may not want it to be that way, but it happens all the time. Accused held for years before trial - in jail. And you know what the sad thing is (I mean besides people who don't know how the system works in real life?)? If those people are found innocent, they NEVER get that time back. NEVER.
Posted by: Specter at December 04, 2006 01:24 PM (ybfXM)
Posted by: Specter at December 04, 2006 01:28 PM (ybfXM)
21
Specter:
It works for me if you cut and paste. Perhaps it is necessary to subscribe to the WaPo, so here's a different account of the same admission:
http://www.editorandpublisher.com/eandp/news/article_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1000946520
Posted by: Tony C. at December 04, 2006 01:34 PM (kMC/P)
22
Tony,
Link is truncated. copy/paste won't work in that situation.
Try using either multiple lines, or html:
[a href="YOUR LINK HERE"]DESCRIPTIVE WORD HERE[/a]
Replace the [ with "".
Posted by: Specter at December 04, 2006 01:38 PM (ybfXM)
23
Ayaaa...replace the [ and ] with the "less than" or "greater than" symbols on the keyboard (keys with the comma and period)
Posted by: Specter at December 04, 2006 01:40 PM (ybfXM)
24
The 4th Circuit justices in your own cite, zadig, said that they welcomed SCOTUS invovlement in the case.
Do you recall what happened when SCOTUS did get involved? I do. The Supreme Court ordered for Padilla to be transferred, which is why he is now in a federal prison in Miami.
On April 3, 2006, SCOTUS declined to hear Padilla's appeal of the 4th Circuit's decision cited above, again, effectively cofirming that the Executive branch does have the power to detail this class of individual just as the 4th said it did previously. You and for that matter I) may not like that the Executive decded to go a different route, but it is quite obvious and SCOTUS-approved that they have the legal right to do so.
Oops.
Tony C, both of your own cites show that inadverdant mishandlings of the Koran by U.S. forces were outnumbered by intentional descecrations of the Koran by detainees 4-to-1. Not once was the false incident cited by Isikoff (a flushed Koran) supported, anywhere.
Newsweek apologized (with a Kerry-esque "non-apology apology"), and the Koran flushing incident, which lead to 15 deaths even though it never occurred, was put to rest.
As an aside, I'm rather disgusted that you are trying to justify allegations of a purposeful false event by using confirmations of accidental and/or very minor despoilments. I'd add that these minor and in all but one instance accidental despoilments pale in comparison to what the terrorists themselves have done.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at December 04, 2006 01:53 PM (g5Nba)
25
Hi Specter,
Thanks for the advice. I'd say that the link is only truncated if your browser window is narrow. But even then, one can double-click on the URL, copy and paste successfully.
Please try that, and if it doesn't work for you I'll resort to the HTML route.
Regards,
Tony C.
Posted by: Tony C. at December 04, 2006 01:54 PM (kMC/P)
26
Tony,
OK...When I open the comments section I get a small window.
But I did find this in the archives:
Pentagon Details Mishandling of Koran
5 Cases Confirmed at Guantanamo Bay
Report of Flushing Found to Be False
[FINAL Edition]
The Washington Post - Washington, D.C.
Author: Josh White and Dan Eggen
Date: Jun 5, 2005
Start Page: A.25
Section: A SECTION
Text Word Count: 926
"Mishandling a Koran at Guantanamo Bay is a rare occurrence," [Jay W. Hood] said in the statement. "Mishandling of a Koran here is never condoned. When one considers the many thousands of times detainees have been moved and cells have been searched since detention operations first began here in January 2002, I think one can only conclude that respect for detainee religious beliefs was embedded in the culture . . . from the start."
The most recent, and perhaps strangest, case of mishandling was documented on March 25, 2005, when a detainee complained to guards that urine came through an air vent in his cell and "splashed on him and his Koran while he laid near the air vent." According to Hood's investigation, the guard responsible reported himself to his superiors and was reassigned to gate duty. The detainee was given a new uniform and Koran.
Hood's investigation also turned up 15 incidents in which detainees mishandled Korans between Nov. 19, 2002, and Feb. 18, 2005. Many of the cases involved detainees ripping up their own Korans, throwing the Koran or its pages out of their cells, or trying to deface a Koran belonging to another detainee.
Now - this is only a preview of the article, and if I wasn't on a deadline on another project I would spend more time. But not - what you questioned originally was CY's statement that the "flushing of the Koran" was found to be false. Note in the Header section of my quote the line that says: Report of Flushing Found to Be False.
So while there may have been some problems (with disciplinary action against the guards to boot), CY's original statement was true - using your own source. Oh well......
Posted by: Specter at December 04, 2006 02:00 PM (ybfXM)
27
Well....my quote was a day later by the same writers at WaPo
Posted by: Specter at December 04, 2006 02:03 PM (ybfXM)
28
What SCOTUS acutally said is
Because this Court answers the jurisdictional question in the negative, it does not reach the question whether the President has authority to detain Padilla militarily.
That is, when CY says that SCOTUS confirmed that the Executive has this authority, he's simply making stuff up.
Note that the pinkos at the Cato Institute conclude that the Hamdi decision means that the President has no such authority.
http://www.cato.org/dailys/08-09-04-2.html
Posted by: Mike Schilling at December 04, 2006 02:07 PM (hhlve)
29
Tony,
Other than the fact that about a year and a half has passed, and there are a tremendous number of new articles on this topic, I have a few questions for you. Did you really read the whole article? 19 alleged incidents in 3 years, and 5 found to have merit. 1,600 Korans handed out in that time. Care to calculate the percentages to see how many incidents there were? (that would be either 1.2% if you take alleged, or .3% if you take admitted) And then would, would you like to speculate on how many of the prisoners there would purposely make false statements to make their guards look bad? I bet it is far larger than 10%.
Posted by: Specter at December 04, 2006 02:11 PM (ybfXM)
30
I wonder how much money we spent on FBI / DOD investigations to find out these statistical aberrations? I bet millions. Wow...such a good use of money....
Posted by: Specter at December 04, 2006 02:16 PM (ybfXM)
31
Obrien,
You are soooo funny - NOT!
But your attempts at satire - note the word attempts - show how shallow you are.
Did you know that most newspapers in MSM panned the judge in Detroit (Diggs) as being one of the worst decisions they had seen. Even people from your side said that. LOL. So much for your logic - oh and the fact that her decision was stayed within days. LOL.
BTW - Diggs is a District Court Judge, not a Circuit Court Judge. You might want to fact check before you look like more of an idyut than you already do. Also - what about her connections to the ACLU, who she ruled in favor of? Don't you think there might have been a conflict of interest there? I mean, she did belong to an organization that made grants to the ACLU.
Posted by: Specter at December 04, 2006 02:23 PM (ybfXM)
32
Whenever I log in here and try to say something on the order of, "Isn't there an American way of doing things that everybody is supposed to be fighting to uphold?" what I get in response is, "Well, Doc, they're foreigners, so we don't have to follow the Constitution in this case."
Padilla isn't a foreigner. He's a U.S. citizen. He may also very well be a bad, bad guy, but even the bad, bad guys get due process if they're citizens.
If he's guilty, then prove it, toss him in the hoosegow and throw away the key.
The Framers knew that abuses like were likely to arise; that's why they included the Bill of Rights. The first ten amendments were added to the Constitution specifically because those dudes knew that, somewhere down the road, someone would say, "We're going to take these rights away from you for your own good."
Posted by: Doc Washboard at December 04, 2006 02:31 PM (/Wery)
33
Mike Shilling, I'm very impressed.
You tried to use a Cato Institute article published in 2004 to say I was wrong about a SCOTUS decision made on 2006 in response to a 4th circuit decision arrived at in 2005.
Neat trick, time travel.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at December 04, 2006 02:32 PM (g5Nba)
34
Yankee, you're really such a lightweight. The 4th circuit ordered that Padilla could be held. Padilla's counsel was going to appeal to the Supreme Court, so the Bush Administration quickly tried to make the problem (and the Supreme Court review) go away by transferring Padilla to the criminal justice system. With me so far?
The 4th Circuit said no, you can't do that. We just ruled you can keep him in your kangaroo court, and now you're trying to take him out? No way. So the Bush Admin went to the Supreme Court for permission to transfer Padilla to the same court system that Padilla's counsel had wanted him in all along, and the Supreme Court reversed the 4th Circuit and said OK, transfer him.
You're comparing two different sets of decisions and trying to pretend that it refutes something. What's still true, and supported by the links I posted, is that the 4th Circuit said Bush could steamroll Padilla's Constitutional rights, and when it looked as if the Supreme Court might get involved (and almost certainly overturn), the Bushies turned tail and ran to the criminal justice system.
Once there, of course, they abandoned all of the original allegations of dirty bombing and such that had justified keeping him without trial for three years, and made up some other crap that has yet to be proven.
And they should be ashamed of abandoning the United States system of justice and treating an American citizen so unjustly.
Posted by: zadig at December 04, 2006 02:36 PM (xIJcT)
35
Doc,
The fact is, that Padilla would probably have been treated the same in the Federal system as in the military system. You are right though, he is a citizen and should have certain rights. But as I pointed out above, those rights are easy to trample anyways - Do I like that? No. But it is a fact of life. Can it be made better? Of course. How? Well - we can start with getting rid of all the case law....well...maybe it can't.
Posted by: Specter at December 04, 2006 02:45 PM (ybfXM)
36
zadig,
no matter and so what. Charge him with whatever, set bond beyond what he can muster, and let him sit. Happens every day in this country.
Posted by: Specter at December 04, 2006 02:46 PM (ybfXM)
37
Specter,
Just because you have rights as an American citizen, doesn't give you a magic "get out of jail free" card. If they want to hold you, they can.
Are you trying to make the argument that holding a prisoner without a court hearing is just what goes on every day?
Of course defendants sit in jail for years awaiting trial if they can't make bail, and no one said anythng about "get of jail free cards", OK? But anyone charged with a crime will appear in open court for arraingment within days of his arrest. The charges against him will be read aloud in court, and there will be charges against him. No one is held for three years before a court orders charges to be filed or the prisoner be released.
If you want to argue that this is what should be done to a "known" terrorist, fine. But don't try to argue that this is just how things work.
Posted by: Pug at December 04, 2006 02:49 PM (r5zYa)
38
"The NY Times has published an article with the apparent goal of trying to generate sympathy for a terrorist."
I don't think that the article was trying to generate sympathy for a terrorist. I think the purpose of the article was to report facts about an extraordinary case. Can you point out any errors or omissions in the article that may skew the reader's point of view in favor of the defendant?
The article did not engender in me any sympathy for Mr. Padilla. If he is guilty he should rot.
The article did, however, make me realize that the executive branch's methods of handling these detainees are jeopardizing our ability to get convictions in these cases. It sounds like the case against him would have been a slam-dunk, and he would already be convicted and incarcerated. Now he may walk due to being "unfit for trial" as a result of our own practices. What harm is there in using our existing judicial system?
Posted by: Joe at December 04, 2006 02:55 PM (Q4dJF)
39
Pug,
That is not quite the point I was trying to make. As a citizen, Padilla should have been charged. But then, after that, his confinement may have been no different than what he was in over 3 years. Just being charged and having an arraignment does not guarantee anything. It is a formal hearing to enter a plea. Probable cause for the arrest should (note the word should) have already been established at the warrant stage (prosecutor presents case to judge and judge signs warrant - or gj - or whatever mechanism is being used). That is how our system works.
But what I keep hearing over this case is that the sense is, if only he had been charged, it would be over. That is utter nonsense. Cases can go on for years and years and the person stays incarcerated - sometimes in confinement.
As far as "known terrorist", well - that is a new world and we are still figuring out how to handle it. A whole new set of underlying law will have to be developed.
Posted by: Specter at December 04, 2006 03:01 PM (ybfXM)
40
Joe,
You said:
The article did, however, make me realize that the executive branch's methods of handling these detainees are jeopardizing our ability to get convictions in these cases.
Maybe it should be modified to "this case", as we are talking about a specific case involving a US citizen. Do not conflate the case to the non-US citizens being held. Different apples.
Posted by: Specter at December 04, 2006 03:04 PM (ybfXM)
41
Specter,
Allow me to conflate more elaborately: If Padilla's lawyers succeed in having him declared unfit for trial, then it will set a precedent for the non-citizen detainees as well -- after all, one's citizenship will not be considered to have material impact on the detainee's mental state as a result of mistreatment.
Posted by: Joe at December 04, 2006 03:19 PM (Q4dJF)
42
Reduced to calling names, zadig? I think we all knew it was simply a matter of time.
We're well aware of the fact that the 4th said Bush had the right to hold Padilla.. I was the one who cited it, remember? I do not, however, recall Judge Luttig calling it a "kangaroo court."
I am also aware of the fact that Justice decided to change tactics and decided to try Padilla in a criminal court, and that Luttug's panel wasn't happy with it... and yet again, I think they managed to somehow avoid saying Padilla's rights were beign "steamrolled"... probably becuase they were the ones that said his rights weren't.
So the 4th wasn't happy with the jursdiction shopping, and SCOTUS backed Justice's transfer request... how exactly did you determine that if the transfer had not been made, that SCOTUS would ""almost certainly" overturn the 4th's decision? Are you and Mike Shilling splitting the cost of calls to Dionne Warwick?
No, you do a pretty good job of reading want you want to read, and ignore the fact that if SCOTUS thought the President was pulling a fast one, they could have simply affirmed the lower court's decision and blocked the transfer. they didn't.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at December 04, 2006 03:21 PM (g5Nba)
43
Joe,
Simple conflation. You are trying to take one case and imply it applies to others which have completely different circumstances. Not intellectually honest at best. US citizens have rights. POWs don't - well - at least not the same level. It's like you are saying that if a 68 year old driver leaves the left turn signal on at all times, then all boat drivers should be held to the same standard. LOL
Posted by: Specter at December 04, 2006 03:57 PM (ybfXM)
44
And Joe,
How does one's mental state have any impact on how they are treated if they are not a US citizen? Circular logic?
Posted by: Specter at December 04, 2006 03:58 PM (ybfXM)
45
Amazing, some of the comments I see. This "poor" guy was convicted of murder before he was even 18 yrs old!!!! Then arrested for pointing a gun at a florida officer.
Do not talk about him as if he is innocent until proven guilty, for this case he might still be awaiting trial, but he has been convicted of far worse already... I agree with CY, boo freakin hooo!!!
Posted by: spree at December 04, 2006 03:58 PM (oKE6z)
46
You do realize SCOTUS refused to hear the Padilla case twice, yes? Both on techincal grounds.
The first, in 2004, was on grounds of jurisdiction. The second, in 2006, was because, Padilla having been moved to the criminal justice system, the question of indefinite detention became moot. Without weighing in on the merits of Padilla's appeal, Justice Anthony Kennedy, joined by Chief Justice John Roberts and Justice John Paul Stevens, wrote there was good reason for the court not to take up the case. Jutice Kennedy wrote:
Padilla is scheduled to be tried on criminal charges. Any consideration of what rights he might be able to assert if he were returned to military custody would be hypothetical.
Neither of these amounts to SCOTUS agreeing that the executive has the right to hold Padilla without charging him.
Posted by: Mike Schilling at December 04, 2006 06:09 PM (hhlve)
47
Specter,
And you're sooooo smart!
NOT!
And don't make fun of CY; it gets testy.
As to your points about Diggs:
1) Government made no case, so Diggs' ruling is based on what info she had. Look it up; our own government doesn't believe in its own court system!
2) So why aren't you complaining about Scalia not recusing himself from his duck hunting buddy's case. (Of course, that's different).
Posted by: O'brien at December 04, 2006 06:40 PM (P0dq1)
48
Obrien,
As usual, your points are irrelevant. You are the one who called Diggs a Circuit Court Judge, right? I see you dodged the conflict of interest issue. Typical. And ignored the fact that people from both sides ridiculed her ruling. Blind. Tried to change the subject. Normal. Sorry - you lose.
Posted by: Specter at December 04, 2006 06:55 PM (ybfXM)
49
So conflict of interest only goes one way. Naturally. But to your point-She is a member of an organization which gives out grants to many other organizations. She doesn't have final say where the grant money goes. Scalia, OTOH, went duck hunting with Cheney and saw no conflict of interest. Like usual, you'll ignore that and say I missed the point. Like usual, you'll be wrong. Just like CY.
Posted by: O'brien at December 04, 2006 06:59 PM (P0dq1)
50
And it's always interesting that you get banned here when you say something that CY doesn't agree with but can't refute. Sensitive, aren't they.
Posted by: O'brien at December 04, 2006 07:01 PM (P0dq1)
51
Specter: he is a citizen and should have certain rights. But as I pointed out above, those rights are easy to trample anyways
You're implying that this makes a Padilla's detention okay, but it doesn't.
Posted by: Sam S at December 04, 2006 07:11 PM (iBgGu)
52
Still didn't answer the question didya? You keep bringing up Scalia. But you don't address Diggs Taylor, except to say that she "doesn't control where the money goes." But you should also remember that your leaders tried to smear Alito by saying that there was a COI issue on a case he had NO say on - no interest as it was between two other parties. You can't have it both ways. Even the appearance of impropriety...remember how Kennedy kept saying that? But I guess it doesn't apply in this case, right? Same old, same old.
But let's look further there Obey - The NYTimes ridiculed Diggs Taylor, as did the WaPo - both very conservative, right?
Try here for a good overview, with links to other places.
Emphasis mine:
More worrisome still are the judge’s breathtaking mistakes in analyzing the Fourth and First Amendments—errors that would earn our first-year law student an “F.” Here’s one of several examples: The judge asserts that the Fourth Amendment, in all cases, “requires prior warrants for any reasonable search, based upon prior-existing probable cause.” She cites no legal authority whatsoever for this colossal misstatement of the law, because none exists. Instead, there are numerous situations where our courts have found no prior warrant is required, so long as a search is “reasonable.” Fatal to her position is the very Supreme Court case she herself cites. This landmark 1972 electronic-surveillance decision, the Keith case, makes clear that, though it establishes a warrant requirement for purely domestic security cases (decidedly not what the TSP is, raising the alarming possibility the judge may think the TSP is a “domestic” program), the Fourth Amendment does not always require a prior warrant for government searches. Rather, the need for warrants depends on a balancing of the government’s legitimate needs, such as protecting us from attack, against other constitutional interests.
Lest there be any doubt as to whether Keith supported Judge Taylor’s view about the warrant requirement for communications with overseas terrorist groups, the Keith court stated that “the instant case requires no judgment on the scope of the President’s surveillance power with respect to the activities of foreign powers, within or without this country.”
While Keith at least left open the question, a post-FISA case, also cited by Judge Taylor herself (In re Falvey), could not have more clearly dispensed with her claimed warrant requirement: “When, therefore, the President has, as his primary purpose, the accumulation of foreign intelligence information, his exercise of Article II power to conduct foreign affairs is not constitutionally hamstrung by the need to obtain prior judicial approval before engaging in wiretapping.”
Apparently Judge Taylor failed to read that portion of the Falvey opinion. She makes similarly striking mistakes on the issues of standing and separation-of-powers. Which brings us to the heart of the problem with the judge’s missive.
Read more about it at the link above. But in a few short paragraphs her ruling is made to look foolish, along with those who took it for granted. Sheesh. And you tell me to look it up. The facts opey are that Diggs Taylor made her ruling without proper evidentiary hearings. Some judge.
Posted by: Specter at December 04, 2006 07:40 PM (ybfXM)
53
Note - in the above post, the three paragraphs after the quote should be included in the quote.
Posted by: Specter at December 04, 2006 07:41 PM (ybfXM)
54
Sam S.,
If you read the whole thread and all of my comments you will note that I said I felt Padilla, as a US citizen, should have been charged.
The section you cherry-picked had to do with the fact that if the government wants to hold on to you - even if you are in the system and charged with a crime - it can. They simply make it impossible for you to get out by setting bail/bond so high that it is impossible to make. This happens every day in our judicial system.
So, stop cherry-picking. Try to follow along with the discussion rather than throwing stones.
Posted by: Specter at December 04, 2006 07:44 PM (ybfXM)
55
Opey,
People get banned here for a reason. If you want to discuss and back up points, then so be it. But if you resort to calling names and swearing because you can't back up your point - well then it is CY's perogative. He does warn people first. Unlike say TruthOut, Larry Johnson, DU, etc. etc. who ban as soon as you post a contrary opinion. You can always host your own blog. It's easy.
Posted by: Specter at December 04, 2006 07:48 PM (ybfXM)
56
If you read the whole thread and all of my comments you will note that I said I felt Padilla, as a US citizen, should have been charged.
I did read the whole thread. You said that suspected mass murderers sit in prison for years awaiting trial anyway.
The section you cherry-picked
I didn't cherry pick it, I judged that statement to be the most concise expression of the view I disagree with.
had to do with the fact that if the government wants to hold on to you - even if you are in the system and charged with a crime - it can. They simply make it impossible for you to get out by setting bail/bond so high that it is impossible to make. This happens every day in our judicial system.
This is different. Padilla sat in jail for three years without being charged. That's different.
So, stop cherry-picking. Try to follow along with the discussion rather than throwing stones.
AFAICT you're saying that it's okay or normal that Padilla sat in jail three years without being charged. I don't see it that way. Disagreeing with you is throwing stones?
Posted by: Sam S at December 04, 2006 11:15 PM (iBgGu)
57
zadig: Have you checked this slime balls criminal record. He comitted his first murder at age 14 and has been a repeat offender (illegal firearms) ever since. His rap sheet reads like a book of nightmares for anyone he comes into contact with. Maybe if he's released he will meet one of your family members and see they have two dollars in their pocket, he will slit their throat to get it. He's that kind of criminal.
And to answer your questions,
Yes I am an American and served 22 years in the military, have over 12 years as a volunteer firefighter, 8 years in EMS (volunteer) and i'm tired of your slimeball dimmi liberals letting terrorists back on the street to kill again.
Yes I advocate putting this slime ball gang member and terrorists in the general population and allowing the other prisoners to have some fun before they slit his throat.
Yes, I think you bleeding heart liberals should be holding his hand when they slit his throat so they only have to take one step to slit your throat. That's one bloody mess I would enjoy cleaning up.
Posted by: Scrapiron at December 05, 2006 01:03 AM (Eodj2)
58
Tony C.: I would like to see the comode that is capable of flushing a Koran. What was it made for, the Jolly Green Giant? No common sense, actually no brains in the entire liberal world. Liberalism is truly a mental illness.
Posted by: Scrapiron at December 05, 2006 01:08 AM (Eodj2)
59
specter,
When did I swear or call anyone a name on this thread? If you look at my posts, not one has a single swear word or name-calling. So why do you have to lie about that?
As I said in an earlier post, and you ignored, Taylor's opinion is based on what evidence she was given and since the Federal Government believed that it could ignore giving evidence in this case, she made her ruling based on only the evidnece given. Whether her ruling is correct or not has no bearing on the point I was trying to make; that you and CY fawn over the 4th Circuit ruling in the Padilla case but whine like babies about Taylor's ruling in the NSA case. Strikes me as hypocritical. But, of course, you can't see that. Just like you can't see the hypocrisy when Scalia goes duck hunting with Cheney before hearing a case involving Cheney.
You're so focused on scoring political points (though you have none worth a damn - is damn considered a swear word, I wonder), that you'll subvert the truth. Too bad honesty doesn't play as large a role in your worldview as just scoring points.
Posted by: O'Brien at December 05, 2006 10:14 AM (UcAfa)
60
Oh, and Specter,
The eliminationist rhetoric is coming from your side. Just look at the lovely thoughts emanating from the mouths of such stalwarts as Scrapiron. None of the so-called liberals on this post has called for the death of any of you.
People who live in Glass houses and all...
Posted by: O'Brien at December 05, 2006 10:20 AM (UcAfa)
61
You see Opie,
You slay me! LOL. I never said that there was nothing inappropriate about Cheney/Scalia. You did, but then throw away the arguments about inappropriate behavior on Diggs Taylor. You are the one trying to have it both ways. Sorry.
Did you read the article I linked? I bet not. I notice you haven't thrown up any proof of your statements. Try it.
Posted by: Specter at December 05, 2006 12:28 PM (ybfXM)
62
Sam S.
Cherry-picked again. I guess you missed the part where I said (it was only the first paragraph of my last post to you - you must have skipped it for some reason):
If you read the whole thread and all of my comments you will note that I said I felt Padilla, as a US citizen, should have been charged.
Now what could that statement mean? I would guess that it means that I don't agree with a US citizen being held like Padilla was. Any person of reasonable intelligence would have picked up on that meaning. Guess where that puts you? LOL
But - You still miss the point. If the government had wanted, they could have arrested Padilla and charged him with however many counts of "conspiracy to commit murder" or some such charge and then set bail so high he would not have gotten out. He could have been sent to a Super-Max and treated basically the same as he was. So, even though I do not agree with how his case (and just that case) was handled, I still claim that he could have been held. All your rhetoric has done nothing to change the fact. Instead you try to find fault with what I said as if I was not speaking the truth somehow. Sorry. I was. Personally, I think that is the way government should have gone, not withstanding what CY published in the Update to this story.
Remember - I am not speaking from the POV of "Wouldn't it be nice if the government acted this way in our utopian thought process?" I am speaking for the POV of "THis is real life, and this is how it works." I may not agree with "how it works" but at least I am grounded enough in reality to recognize it. Unlike some others I could name...
Posted by: Specter at December 05, 2006 12:38 PM (ybfXM)
63
Opie,
When did I swear or call anyone a name on this thread? If you look at my posts, not one has a single swear word or name-calling. So why do you have to lie about that?
I call BS on you. You made the comment that people get banned:
Opie at December 4, 2006 07:01 PM:
And it's always interesting that you get banned here when you say something that CY doesn't agree with but can't refute. Sensitive, aren't they.
All I did was, from the perspective of someone who has been around this site for quite some time, explain why people get banned:
Specter said:
People get banned here for a reason. If you want to discuss and back up points, then so be it. But if you resort to calling names and swearing because you can't back up your point - well then it is CY's perogative. He does warn people first.
OK - so maybe I should have used the word "one" instead of "you". But I really never said you swore and called names, did I?
And you say that CY is sensitive? Holy Crow Batman - talk about paranoia...LOL
Posted by: Specter at December 05, 2006 12:52 PM (ybfXM)
64
You constantly cite the 4th Circuit decision without realizing it undercuts your own argument. Jose Padilla is not "a citizen of this country who is closely associated with al Qaeda" (at least he is not accused of this). Nor is he someone "who took up arms on behalf of that enemy and against our country in a foreign combat zone of that war" he is not accused of that either, and further he was arrested in Chicago. By the 4th Circuit's own definition he should not be held with trial.
Posted by: zenless at December 05, 2006 04:00 PM (bWjAU)
65
You constantly cite the 4th Circuit decision without realizing it undercuts your own argument. Jose Padilla is not "a citizen of this country who is closely associated with al Qaeda" (at least he is not accused of this). Nor is he someone "who took up arms on behalf of that enemy and against our country in a foreign combat zone of that war" he is not accused of that either, and further he was arrested in Chicago. By the 4th Circuit's own definition he should not be held without trial.
Posted by: zenless at December 05, 2006 04:01 PM (bWjAU)
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Iowa Voice Bleg
What exactly are your job options in Iowa... don't they boil down to football and things you can do with corn?
Anyway, Brian at
Iowa Voice just accidentally graduated and is blegging for dollars to help him through until he lands a job. If you enjoy his blog and have a dime or two to spare, consider
helping him out.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
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Ha ha. Just like all jobs in North Carolina involve basketball, textiles, or raising hogs.
Posted by: Wil at December 04, 2006 10:08 AM (O8pjo)
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December 01, 2006
Open Season
Lots of things are flying around today, and trying to contextualize, compartmentalize, and sort through them in a logical manner is proving to be difficult.
I've just read
MSM bias: "Everybody knows ... from the
Alabama Liberation Front (via
Instapundit, which touches on the ficticious story of six men "burned alive" in Baghdad and the AP's refusal to back down from the story, and the dangers of "groupthink" and so-called conventional wisdom. I then read Dr. Sanity's
Systematic Subversion and the Ultimate Triumph of Freedom, which I think was supposed to optomistic about the ultimate triumph of freedom over tyranny, but it's stopping points along the way, highlighting how terrorists support Democratic politics becuase they indeed share some of the same goals (if not for the same reasons), the impression of anomie upon the American people by a mindlessly self-destructive media and the majority of our political leadership, and questions about whether Islam was compatible with freedom, and what the answer to that question meant for the future, left me rather emotionally exhausted.
Toss in my own continuing, pre-existing disgust with a media machine more focused on profit and spreading (and dictating) conventional wisdom than doing it's job, the apparent resurrection of foreign policy realism (the same incompetent, political-party spanning philosophy that did much to create the conditions favorable for the rise of terrorism), the overly war-like actions of Iran and Syria that every nation on the planet seems to see, but chooses to ignore, and you might understand why I'm getting a headache trying to make sense of it all.
But is there any sense to be made?
Kathleen Carroll, Executive Editor of the Associated Press, is going to bat and supporting a story that actually has less credible evidence that the Dan Rather/Mary Mapes fiasco, with anonymous reporters, anonymous witnesses, no physical evidence and one named witness, who it turns out, is not who he claims to be. Carroll even goes to the absurd extreme of saying that since they've used the fictional Captain for numerous stories, that he
must be real.
We've been feeding you stories from someone who doesn't exist for months, and now is too late to complain about it seems to be her defense, and curiously, (or perhaps not), no other news organization wants to tackle this, and for a very telling reason: the methodologically flawed stringer-run, faith-based, virtual reporting exposing the glaring weaknesses of Associated Press news-gathering efforts here
are the norm among news organizations in Iraq. They news gathering techniques used in Iraq are fatally corrupt, easy for enemy propagandists to exploit, and worst of all, it is all but certain that media organizations such as the Associates Press are well aware of these flaws, but have chosen not modify them becuase these reporting methods were yeilding the "common sense" reporting that they desired. Top media management supports inaccurate stories, devoid of facts, because these stories fit their preconceived ideas of what they expect
should be happening, even if the events themselves are false.
It's psychic newscasting, where they forecast what the events should be, and tailor a story to match it. It's a lot of things... but it isn't honest, it isn't credible, and it isn't news, and those who "stand for nothing and fall for anything" aren't confined to an incurious and lazy media.
As Pat Santy's post notes, those Islamic terrorists who seek our deaths, refer to one of poltical parties in
brotherly terms. Leaders of top terrorists groups
openly rooted that same poltical party in the 2006 midterms, just as Osama bin Laden's push for an American withdrawal from the War on Terror in 2004 was so similar to that party's own views, that their candidate
attributes his loss to Osama's tape, a tape which exposed their too similar views.
Vasko Kohlmayer outlines the similarity between the chosen party of terrorists and the Islamofascists themselves quite specifically in
World Defense Review:
Given all that the democrats have done, the affection in which they are held by our foes is neither unjustified nor surprising. They have more than earned it by systematically subverting this country's war effort while simultaneously proffering assistance to those who have pledged to destroy us.
Democrats' devious deeds are too numerous to be fully recounted, but here at least are some of the highlights:
- They have tried to prevent us from listening on terrorists' phone calls
- They have sought to stop us from properly interrogating captured terrorists
- They have tried to stop us from monitoring terrorists' financial transactions
- They have revealed the existence of secret national security programs
- They have opposed vital components of the Patriot Act
- They have sought to confer unmerited legal rights on terrorists
- They have opposed profiling to identify the terrorists in our midst
- They have impugned and demeaned our military
- They have insinuated that the president is a war criminal
- They have forced the resignation of a committed defense secretary
- They have repeatedly tried to de-legitimize our war effort
- They want to quit the battlefield in the midst of war.
While some may quibble over Kolhmayer's choice of wording, these factual acuracy of the postions he represents are all quite true, and heavily documented by the media, the pronoucements of liberal blogs, and the words of Democratic politicians, who
to this very day support policies that seek to weaken America while strenghtening the hand of our enemies, supporting terrorism, even if accidentally.
To add to the Democrats on-going cohesion with our terrorist enemies, we have among us leaders on both sides of the political that ignore the increasingly obvious fact, that for their to be any hope of a stable Middle East, Iran and Syria must be forced out of their state sponshopship of terrorism.
These two terror-supporting states, who
right now attempting to force the Lebanese government to step down peacefull now because they failed in their attempt to murder enough of Fouad Siniora's Cabinet ministers to enforce their coup d'etat at the barrel of a gun. Iran and Syria used Hezbollah earlier this year to instigate a nearly month-long war, that some defense analysts think was ordered by Iran to test Israeli military capabilities.
Iran has also been supplying both
training and
munitions to Sadrists to target American soldiers and destabilize Iraq, as Syria has supplied Sunni insurgents and allowed foreign fighters to inflitrate into al-Anbar province for these same reasons.
And yet, we have politicians and media elites purposefully ignoring the obviously correct course of action of
killing those who target our soldiers for death. Instead, they propose establishing dialogue, as if talking with our moral enemies while they attempt to kill us is somehow an intelligent course of action.
Dr. Sanity seems convinced that in the end, that freedom with prevail. I hope for that outcome as well, but fear that our current moral cowardice in confronting those who boldly and mortally stand against us, will mean that millions more will die in that march for freedom than otherwise would have to perish with direct and decisive actions to end their threat today.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
01:47 PM
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1
I received an email listing (garbage) that you have to believe to be a republican. I saved the email and all of the email addresses it was sent to. Currently making a list of what you have to believe to vote for a dimmie. Post your list in comments and i'll check them every day and add to my list.
Posted by: Scrapiron at December 01, 2006 02:06 PM (Eodj2)
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They have tried to prevent us from listening on terrorists' phone calls
'Without a warrant' is the key part you are leaving out here. We see this as part of the Bill of Rights.
They have sought to stop us from properly interrogating captured terrorists
We are categorically against torture, yes.
They have revealed the existence of secret national security programs
We feel that if a secret program is contrary to the Bill of Rights it should be reveled.
They have opposed vital components of the Patriot Act
Again we see parts of this to contravene the Bill of Rights.
They have forced the resignation of a committed defense secretary
Bush fired Rumsfeld on his own volition, while the Dems were still in the minority.
They have repeatedly tried to de-legitimize our war effort
But we do believe it's illegitimate, as it was sold to us under the auspices of WMD. Now we're supposed to buy into the notion that we should be behind any sacrifice to build a democracy. We don't feel that this is what was asked of us.
They want to quit the battlefield in the midst of war.
We don't understand the exit strategy, so how will we know when it is time to quit?
Posted by: Sam S at December 01, 2006 02:56 PM (iBgGu)
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While some may quibble over Kolhmayer's choice of wording, these factual acuracy of the postions he represents are all quite true,
No. It's more than quibbling, CY - much of those items are flat-out lies. Let's see what I can debunk just off the top of my head:
- They have tried to prevent us from listening on terrorists' phone calls
Flat-out lie. The effort was to force the gov't to obey the law in the process of tapping phone calls. Further, it was never about tapping specifically terrorist phone calls; it was about tapping vast swaths of citizen communications in the vague hopes of stumbling on terrorists.
- They have sought to stop us from properly interrogating captured terrorists
Again, a flat-out lie. The various treaties signed by the US have the full force and equivalence of federal law. The Executive does not get to unilaterally decide who those laws do and do not apply to - it's a topic the populace, or at least their representatives in Congress, MUST be involved in deciding. Attempting to force the Executive to obey the law is NOT disloyalty. Quite the opposite.
- They have tried to stop us from monitoring terrorists' financial transactions
How exactly? Again, by requiring that the US Gov't actually obey US law? His argument is still crap.
- They have revealed the existence of secret national security programs
You mean the ones that were publically discussed by the Bush administration years before the NYT printed the info? How traitorious is it when info is leaked that makes Bush look good?
- They have opposed vital components of the Patriot Act
Which has exactly what to do with the price of RPGs in Baghdad? Kohlmayer's definition of "vital" means exactly squat.
- They have sought to confer unmerited legal rights on terrorists
See above discussion on torture.
- They have opposed profiling to identify the terrorists in our midst
Again, if it's illegal, work to change the law. Nobody gets to simply ignore the law when it's inconvenient.
- They have impugned and demeaned our military
How, exactly? By blaming our failures on the commanders and troops in the field? No, that was a GOP Congressman.
- They have insinuated that the president is a war criminal
I'm no lawyer, but if the shoe fits...
- They have forced the resignation of a committed defense secretary
Flat-out lie. Rummy wrote his own pink slip by running the war effort incompetently. And then Bush flat-out lied about the firing. Not for national security reasons, but just because he was tired of answering the questions.
- They have repeatedly tried to de-legitimize our war effort
Again, if the shoe fits...
- They want to quit the battlefield in the midst of war.
No, they want to fight the war that actually affect US security. Remember Afghanistan? the Taliban? Bin Laden? _Those_ were the people who actually attacked us. Let's try fighting _that_ war.
Posted by: legion at December 01, 2006 03:00 PM (3eWKF)
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- They want to quit the battlefield in the midst of war.
No, they want to fight the war that actually affect US security. Remember Afghanistan? the Taliban? Bin Laden? _Those_ were the people who actually attacked us. Let's try fighting _that_ war.
Exactly. Add that to what I said above.
Posted by: Sam S at December 01, 2006 03:17 PM (iBgGu)
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I was quoting 'legion' above. I screwed up the formatting somehow.
Posted by: Sam S at December 01, 2006 03:19 PM (iBgGu)
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legion - pretty good for off the top of the head. Coupla corrections if I may:
Monitoring financial transactions -
This was a US/European operation and is illegal in Europe, both by ECU and various member government laws. Libruls had nothing to say about it because it did not occur on US soil.
Profiling terrorists in our midst -
Actually, this would simply take the form regulatory relief by either TSA or DHS and acceptance by a increasingly conservative judiciary. Problem with profiling is that there blond blue-eyed folks up to no good - ever take a look at McVeigh? Israel's got it going with behavioural profiling but would make the current security mess at airports a walk in the park - so hand over the massage oil.
Posted by: sami at December 01, 2006 03:27 PM (3qVpU)
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Scrapiron -- do you mean one of these?
http://www.craigslist.org/about/best/nyc/62974620.html
http://www.stallman.org/republicanBeliefs.html
they've been floating around in one form or another for quite awhile.
Posted by: Sam S at December 01, 2006 03:31 PM (iBgGu)
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Funny Sam, I don't remember anywhere in the Bill of Rights where is says that foreign terrorists are covered. Hell, they aren't even covered under the rights of the Geneva Convention as they fail to abide its regulations as well.
Posted by: BohicaTwentyTwo at December 01, 2006 03:33 PM (oC8nQ)
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Bohica -- not sure if you're talking about interrogation or wiretaps. If one party of a conversation is a citizen in the US, and the government taps into that conversation without a warrant, then the citizen's rights have been violated. Why not just require the government to get a warrant? They can get one 72 hours after the fact if necessary. The only reason they don't want to be limited by warrants is because they're eavesdropping without adequate evidence in some cases.
Recall that Nixon used eavesdropping to try to influence an election. In that light don't you think it's bad to allow politician to eavesdrop without warrants?
You might say, well they were only international calls, but we don't know that. Anyway, judicial oversight is a fundamental part of the checks and balances that our forefathers conceived.
Posted by: Sam S at December 01, 2006 03:42 PM (iBgGu)
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We don't understand the exit strategy
What part of victory is confusing you. Perhaps we can help.
Posted by: Purple Avenger at December 01, 2006 03:49 PM (p9O/F)
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In all of the distortions, misrepresentations, and blind speculations used above to "justify" the shared liberal/terrorist positions defined by Kohlmayer, not once do any of those defending these liberal Democratic positions even make the attempt to deny that they share many of the same goals as those who would see America's sons and daughters slaughtered.
Fascinating, but worrisome and quite sad.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at December 01, 2006 03:52 PM (g5Nba)
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CY
I like roasted goat but that doesn't mean I share a world view with every goat eater.
I'm not defending librul positions - I'm speaking for a) Constitutionalism; b) the rule of law; c) honest open and temperate discussion of same.
Wait...Wait - this fax just in from OBL
d) Hot sauce with the goat
Posted by: sami at December 01, 2006 04:02 PM (3qVpU)
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sami, you need to be a bit more informed before you start claiming that you ae speaking for "a) Constitutionalism; b) the rule of law; c) honest open and temperate discussion of same" if you are endorsing those positions held forth above.
There is zero evidence that the NSA program violates, or even comes close to violating, any laws.
All the screeching done over it has been from critics who have no direct knowledge of it at all, and who have wasted their time on idle speculation. Those that have seen the details of how the program operates have not questioned its legality in the slightest, and noted liberal Lanny Davis, just fully briefed on the program, even stated he wished more people could understand how it worked so that they could understand just how safe their privacy was.
As for interrogation, the law Bush signed defining acceptable techniques should have been passed over 70 years ago; until he signed it, when had a dangerous gray area uncovered by law. As for the techniques themselves, they are not torture. They cause stress and discomfort, but leave no damage, and to equate these techniques to torture is to belittle those who have been scarred by the real thing.
Most of the other arguments, as I stated before, are distortions, misrepresentations, and blind speculations, just like these two I chose to single out as examples.
And your "fax" claim above is also bogus. Everyone knows that Osama uses a Mac.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at December 01, 2006 04:22 PM (g5Nba)
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Sam, why does an electronic intercept of a foreign enemy of our country require judicial review just because the number he calls happens to be in the US? As for torture, I believe interrogations should be a little bit tougher than the average police drama, without the lawyer. It shouldn't be a Mel Gibson movie, but it also shouldn't be a trip to the principals office.
Posted by: BohicaTwentyTwo at December 01, 2006 04:28 PM (oC8nQ)
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CY -
And your "fax" claim above is also bogus. Everyone knows that Osama uses a Mac.
BUSTED.
Beg to differ - FISA was established for just this sort of thing. This adminstration has admitted to domestic eefsdropping (such a secret). If NSA listens to domestic calls without a warrant, it's a felony. IMO, the NSA wiretap was placed outside of FISA particularly to push the precedent of a unitary president. I think it is deliberately illegal.
And Lanny Davis is as librul as a tree-stump. He's a neo-con, the same path taken by numerous old-line dims. Do I have to use the Lieberword?
We can argue over the effectiveness of torture (or where stress/discomfort leave off and torture begins but I would have to get my wife involved in that) but it really pulls us off the moral high ground. Doncha feel the least bit uncomfortable with the USofA is one of those who disappears people and engages in physical abuse. I always kinda thought that behaviour belong to banana republics and commie pinko fags.
My concerns with the consitutionality and rule of law really revolve around a concern that we sacrifice the little things in a never ending GWOT because we can pretty much beat the crap out of a terrorist and who cares. Until the terrorist is a lawyer in Oregon or a German citizen in the wrong place at the wrong time or a Canadian citizen itwpatwt or a US citizen who was where he shouldn't been and talked to the wrong people. The next thing you know President Hillary will be hunting both ex-bushie and librul bloggers with apache helicopters.
And don't you think OBL looks like a hot-sauce guy -- with really bad garlic breath?
Posted by: sami at December 01, 2006 04:49 PM (3qVpU)
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The Constitution is not a suicide pact
Posted by: Purple Avenger at December 01, 2006 04:51 PM (p9O/F)
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It all comes down to whether you trust you government or not. If given power, do you think our government will abuse it or not. You see, I think there are evil people in this world, and I think our government should have the power to make them disappear and go away, forever. I ALSO trust our government not to abuse this power to go after political opponents, bloggers, or the kid at school who picked on the President when he was little.
Posted by: BohicaTwentyTwo at December 01, 2006 05:01 PM (oC8nQ)
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"not once do any of those defending these liberal Democratic positions even make the attempt to deny that they share many of the same goals as those who would see America's sons and daughters slaughtered."
I've never heard anyone say they share goals with the terrorists. I see defending the Constitution and Bill of Rights as my highest duties to my country. The terrorists want to convert everyone to Islam or kill them.
Posted by: Sam S at December 01, 2006 05:04 PM (iBgGu)
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CY said: There is zero evidence that the NSA program violates, or even comes close to violating, any laws.
That's how the administration has represented it, but it's not true. One FISA judge stepped down as a protest to the administration's behavior. Anytime you listen in on citizens without a warrant, that is against the Bill of Rights. The administration has various defenses, but it's just that simple. They are breaking the law.
Posted by: Sam S at December 01, 2006 05:09 PM (iBgGu)
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Bohica,
You're aiming the right direction, but I'd offer a little target correction.
It all comes down to whether you trust you government or not. If given power, do you think our government will abuse it or not.
Our gov't is made up of people, and people, in the larger sense, _will_ abuse power. No matter how great a given President is, there's no guarrantee what the _next_ President will be like. We must never fall into the trap of giving him more power than a President ought to have, just because we think he can use it well; that power never goes away. The Romans felt that way about Caesar. They made him Emperor. then they got guys like Nero and Caligula.
Power _will_ be abused. We must never forget that the people in power work for _us_, not the other way around. Mistrust of the gov't - _any_ gov't, not just ours, and not just the current one - is the safest path.
Posted by: legion at December 01, 2006 05:13 PM (3eWKF)
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Purple Avenger said: The Constitution is not a suicide pact
Implicit in what you are saying is that we should bend the Constitution when we feel threatened. I side with what Lincoln famously said in his 1838 Lyceum Address:
At what point then is the approach of danger to be expected? I answer, if it ever reach us, it must spring up amongst us. It cannot come from abroad. If destruction be our lot, we must ourselves be its author and finisher. As a nation of freemen, we must live through all time, or die by suicide.
In other words, our strength emanates from the Constitution, not the other way around.
Posted by: Sam S at December 01, 2006 05:14 PM (iBgGu)
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The Constitution is not a suicide pact
Actually, PA, I'd disagree. The Constitution defines more than just our general system of gov't - it defines our values and our way of life. While there is some allowance for change as our society evolves over time, there are limits. If one destroys the Constitution, does not "America", both as an ideal and as a nation, cease to exist?
To put it another, admittedly hyperbolic, way: if Wall Street got nuked tomorrow, the United States would still stand. If the President dissolved Congress and the courts for restricting Executive authority, the same could not be said.
Posted by: legion at December 01, 2006 05:19 PM (3eWKF)
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Bohica said I ALSO trust our government not to abuse this power to go after political opponents,
But I gave you an example of just that up above -- Nixon tried to use his power to defeat his political rivals.
Also:
"Distrust of government is a tenant of our nation:
It is the responsibility of the patriot to protect his country from its government."
--Thomas Paine
Does that not squarely contradict you?
Posted by: Sam S at December 01, 2006 05:19 PM (iBgGu)
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Geez, Sam - get out of my head!
Posted by: legion at December 01, 2006 05:20 PM (3eWKF)
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legion: I am your long lost Mini-Me.
Posted by: Sam S at December 01, 2006 05:30 PM (iBgGu)
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Bohica22-
>>It all comes down to whether you trust you government or not.
Ok - not. Neither the left nor right.
It is ironic that an idealogy that grew out of distrust of the vision of less government has wrapped itself so thoroughly into big govt. And there's more - you take the old discredited liberal internationlism that gave vietnam, mix in a bit of the acheson arrogance and a speck of nixonian manipulativeness and you have (all together) NeoConservativism.
hurrah
Posted by: sami at December 01, 2006 06:24 PM (BpQGf)
27
Sorry -
distrust of AND the vision of less government
the little things matter
Posted by: sami at December 01, 2006 06:28 PM (BpQGf)
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So are you all saying that if Nixon had the Patriot Act, he would have gotten away with it? Your arguments all seem so slippery slope. No one seems to have a problem with going after terrorists, but what if someday "I" become the terrorist. Granted, its a problem of definition. Foreign terrorists aren't soldiers covered under the Geneva Convention and they aren't US citizens either. But I still think there will be a common sense rule applied that our government will be able to tell the difference between myself and Khalid Sheik Mohammed.
Posted by: BohicaTwentyTwo at December 01, 2006 07:38 PM (XoLor)
29
In all of the distortions, misrepresentations, and blind speculations used above to "justify" the shared liberal/terrorist positions defined by Kohlmayer, not once do any of those defending these liberal Democratic positions even make the attempt to deny that they share many of the same goals as those who would see America's sons and daughters slaughtered.
Later...
There is zero evidence that the NSA program violates, or even comes close to violating, any laws.
1.
Didn't you already outlaw intellectual dishonesty and laziness back whilst decrying the Jesus' Generals Chicken-Hawk post?
2.
Judge Rules Against Wiretaps
NSA Program Called Unconstitutional
By Dan Eggen and Dafna Linzer
Washington Post Staff Writers
Friday, August 18, 2006; Page A01
A federal judge in Detroit ruled yesterday that the National Security Agency's warrantless surveillance program is unconstitutional, delivering the first decision that the Bush administration's effort to monitor communications without court oversight runs afoul of the Bill of Rights and federal law.
Posted by: Frederick at December 01, 2006 10:38 PM (jSBbA)
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If given power, do you think our government will abuse it or not.
This is where the left engages in projection. They assume others would do as they would do...and abuse the power ;->
Posted by: Purple Avenger at December 01, 2006 10:43 PM (p9O/F)
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Purple Avenger: you seem not to understand US history. The Declaration of Independence and the Constitution are all about tyranny, mostly tyranny from our own government.
"The jaws of power are always open to devour, and her arm is always stretched out, if possible, to destroy the freedom of thinking, speaking, and writing."
--John Adams
Posted by: Sam S at December 02, 2006 02:23 AM (iBgGu)
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you seem not to understand US history.
I understand that a liberal democrat president imprisoned a bunch of people in concentration camps during WWII.
I understand that same liberal president engaged in press censorship/coercion the likes of which is unheard of today.
I understand that a certain president named Clinton used the IRS to attack his political enemies.
Posted by: Purple Avenger at December 02, 2006 02:33 AM (p9O/F)
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You can get away with a lot when you're a winner, PA...
Posted by: monkyboy at December 02, 2006 05:35 AM (unUeA)
34
Watching leftist non-lawyers debate national security and the law...is like watching Janet Reno trying to give Jimmy Carter a shave and a haircut.
In the same moment I want to look away in fear and revulsion AND I can't stop watching.
The low level federal "judge" who "ruled" on the issue out of Detroit is a low grade imbecile, whose ruling was labeled a joke by nearly EVERY legal analyst...left, right and center...so reliance on that ruling is either wholly uninformed or intentionally disingenuous.
Secondly, selective listening in on INTERNATIONAL calls for the safety and security of the country in a time of CLEARLY THREATENED ATTACK...is the seminal issue. How can you accomplish it legally? What boundaries and limitations are there under the law?
Let's try to restrict ourselves to these issues...despite the wild-eyed pronouncements that the Consitution will erupt in a miracle/tragedy of self-combustion and be forever relegated to the ash heap of history...and further pronouncements that the action takent IS "illegal"...virtually NOBODY who has reviewed the procedure fully is quite that shattered by its implementation.
The President of the United States did not "break any laws", a new set of facts (terrorist sleeper cells from a group of enemy combatants set up camp and are communicating with each other to try to kill, maim, destroy, subvert, overthrow our country)and while we gracefully try to adhere to the beautiful and saintly principles painstakingly scribed with quill pens, these enemies are pouring in money, killers and plans across our borders by way of space satellite aided technology.
There's a bit of a disconnect here and it's not the fault of the framers...it's simply that they could not have anticipated the need for protection of the Union...from sleeper cells with laptops, cell phones, ATM cards and suitcase nuclear bombs.
If you are a leftist and you want to discuss whether the intelligence review of ANY OR ALL international calls exceeds the boundaries and limitations necessary to protect the country and my countrymen from the existing threat...by all means...go for it.
But at least stop BRIEFLY along the way to recognize that there is a legitimate state interest in protecting the country...and its people.
I realize that many leftists think that Al Qaeda and other murderers are romantic, "minutemen" who are simply giving our innocent citizens exactly what they deserve, ...but unfortunately the people charged with providing a national defense for our country simply don't have the luxury of cooing at and passing love notes to...an enemy who hijacks our commercial jets and slams them into our buildings. Or who announce plans via the internet and communicate via cell phone how to poison our water supply, build nuclear weapons to destroy our cities or blow up ships in our ports. Sorry, they simply can't.
As usual, the leftists put our interests last...and look for ways to crap on the country. Why not? They're Americans in name only. Timeshare Americans really don't care about national security or communal responsibility. It's all about the "freedom of the individual"...to do anything they want, however they want, whenever they want. And if a few thousand terrorists set up a horrific death spectacle here on the home turf...well, too bad.
For those who wish to discuss the issue seriously, the ONLY issue (the Fourth Amendment discussion is frail and not worthy of serious debate) is whether there is a limitation or boundary that can be exercised that would accomplish the goals of national security without compromising them...AND more narrowly pinpoint the likely targets.
NOBODY here is capable of answering that question. You don't have the security clearance to speak intelligently about it. But you can guess. You can come up with some ideas.
Warrants for phone calls or intercepts...on SLEEPER cells is rather oxymoronic, I would think. If the leftists want to seriously debate this and go through the mental gymnastics trying to find a BETTER way to ACCOMPLISH SOMETHING...by all means...have at it.
If they simply want to blow more asshat steam about the President, our intelligence community, the military, Republicans, the Supreme Court, corporations and capitalism, ...or whatever their echo chamber playbook page is open to today...then, I would just as soon go back to the Reno shaves Carter scene, at least that might have a useful ending.
Posted by: cfbleachers at December 02, 2006 08:32 AM (5RM9g)
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For those who wish to discuss the issue seriously,
How can you be taken seriously when you say?
As usual, the leftists put our interests last
Posted by: AkaDad at December 02, 2006 09:54 AM (1RcP8)
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Ak-dad
Because...that's what a leftist is...and does.
The whole point of being a modern day leftist is to be against...to be "anti"..
This is precisely what amazes me about modern leftists...they are so programmed in the echo chamber...it baffles them when someone calls them on the very thing they are set up to accomplish.
On a national security level, on a homeland defense level, on a level related to confronting enemies of state....where do you stand?
Leftists can't answer these questions...because they don't stand ....anywhere...really. They are programmed to only stand against...to be "anti".
It's why a good man like Joe Lieberman got shredded in their buzzsaw of hatred. He is a solid, warm-hearted liberal on social issues, but not a leftist echo chamber member on defense and security of this country.
The reason none of the leftists want to take on serious issues related to national security, confronting our enemies...is because...the leftist playbook simply is devoid of anything to say about it. There is no plan, there are no ideas...it's a vacuum.
Leftists put us last...because they don't like our form of government, they want to replace it with World Populism...a multi-cultural, mushy, feel-good, warmed over Socialism. "Let's all talk and be friends" utopian, egalitarian society of art museums and theater in the park. I mean, it's really rather lovely. Insipid and inter-galactically inane...but cute nonetheless.
Back here in the real world, the inhabitants of this planet have to deal with Islamic thugs who want to kill people who are "infidels" because they don't agree with genocidal maniacs who want to wipe out all the Jews and Christians and Buddhists and Hindus on the planet.
The leftists put us last...because to them...WE stand in the way of their childlike pursuit of nirvana. They want to party like it's 1999. And they don't want to live in the real world post 2001.
Leftists want to overthrow this government...and they really don't care to think about what might replace it. It's chic and trendy to be against America. Funny thing is...they would be the most miserable...among all the misery...if the Islamofascists ever got their way.
It's no use to tell them to be careful what you wish for...because they have no intention of being careful...and they don't wish for anything...only against.
Posted by: cfbleachers at December 02, 2006 10:45 AM (5RM9g)
37
"The Declaration of Independence and the Constitution are all about tyranny, mostly tyranny from our own government."
The Declaration of Independance and the Constitution were created to protect us from the tyranny of King of England. Now we are trying to protect ourselves from the tyranny of those who want the world to be an Islamic Caliphate under Sharia Law. Different enemys require different tactics.
Posted by: BohicaTwentyTwo at December 02, 2006 12:02 PM (XoLor)
38
Being someone who deals with this subject intimately on a daily basis, I have continued to marvel at the ignorance and stupidity being passed off in these "leftist" arguments. CY, you know what I do for a living and you know what I have access to because of my work...the ignorance the liberals here are demonstrating is awe-inspiring. I've always found unabashed pride in one's own delusional ignorance to be something to behold.
Time and again you have people posting here who know nothing about Constitutional Law, nothing about what we are really doing to protect this country, but are just parroting the ill-conceived arguments they have heard repeated by others (and the MSM in many cases). I'm sure more than one of them will claim to be a lawyer (Constitutional Law, perhaps? yeah, right.) and will also claim they are an expert in the legalities of what can and can't be done in the name of national security. Bring it on...that's my personal playground, nancy boys.
I do this for a living and am around it every day--DC politics, the whole smack...including several liberal judges who get their "opinioned" rulings overturned on a regular basis (some of which were used here to justify lefty arguments).
And those who were talking about "getting a search warrent in only 72 hours" and "that's what FISA is there for" are stupid beyond their years. I could write a book (I have already written a report) and the shortcomings of FISA and how a "warrant wait" of even 3 hours would have cost us a HUGE terrorist attack two years ago.
I marvel at the stupidity of these people--people who think their opinion really is worth something...I marvel and shake my head in disgust. Stupid people have always irritated me and people who think they are experts on Homeland Security and the Constitution are not only an irritant, but are dangerous to our security. I think I'll have to stop reading your comments section CY--I'm tired of being subjected to uninformed, self important leftists who can't think for themselves and certainly have no idea what they are talking about. If I want to know what the leftist zombie squad is thinking, all I have to do is turn on the MSM.
No thanks.......I have enough problems trying to protect these people in spite of how hard they make my job each day.
Posted by: WB at December 02, 2006 01:18 PM (JefDc)
39
Bohica said: The Declaration of Independance and the Constitution were created to protect us from the tyranny of King of England.
That's just not true! The Declaration talks about the inalienable rights of man. The Constitution is not at all about England, it is about ensuring that our own government not become tyrnannical. I sincerely encourage you to learn more about this. Read the Bill of Rights, for instance.
Purple said:
I understand that a liberal democrat president imprisoned a bunch of people in concentration camps during WWII.
I understand that same liberal president engaged in press censorship/coercion the likes of which is unheard of today.
I understand that a certain president named Clinton used the IRS to attack his political enemies.
Do you believe that only Democrats are liable to abuse their powers? That's a childish view of the world.
Posted by: Sam S at December 02, 2006 02:04 PM (iBgGu)
40
There are a couple of recent studies that point to the hardwiring of our brains from infancy to be left or right. Very new, but interesting. The studies showed each side the opposite of their stated opinions and both sides reacted negatively if their point of view was not what was shown.
I found it interesting because, these "scientists" seems to be saying that "we" don't have control over what we think. I disagree totally. I started out as a liberal, bleeding heart, in my 20's. Living life and experiences taught me that what I had been fighting for became a sad joke...in my early 40's. The day I read that we, American women, had aborted 30 MILLION babies in about 25 years, left me aghast!
What I know from decades of living is that if humans cannot learn from daily life and personal experience we are doomed. We need to be responsible for our actions without question. All of the Liberal agenda items that have been imposed on us in the past forty years have brought us to low educational levels, horrible drug usage, high AIDS infections, old and new diseases, making others millionairs by reason of race, creed or someone's idea of "hurt" infliction, a blind hating academia, biased media, and, of course, the "new" ugly: Paris Hilton and Britney Spears.
I fear for my grandchildren, greatly.
Posted by: Sue at December 02, 2006 02:07 PM (aZe1d)
41
My apologies WB,for saying "nobody"...obviously, there are a few exceptions to the rule.
I have a Constitutional law background (with dozens of federal court jury trials under my belt), but zero security clearance.
But please don't walk away in frustration...you are EXACTLY what we need. More and better FACTS. Better information. Truth is like kryptonite to leftists...but the rest of us truly appreciate it. And by the way, it doesn't get said often enough, but...thanks for being there.
Sue
Fearing for the next generation is a healthy response and quite normal. Standing up and speaking for them is the answer. When you are 20 (or act like it, like those suffering from arrested development)...you are subject to peer pressure and want the world to be simple and organized.
The world unfortunately has people in it who don't play by the same set of rules. The predatory mind will always seek to find the weakest member of the herd. If you are impressionable and easily swayed...if you refuse to think things out for yourself...you become prey. Prime targets.
This is why I advocate being an "issue-ist". Decide each issue on its own merits. Not because it resounds with or emanates from the left or right...but because after examining it thoroughly what's left IS right.
Posted by: cfbleachers at December 02, 2006 02:52 PM (5RM9g)
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cfbleachers said: Truth is like kryptonite to leftists ... I advocate being an "issue-ist". Decide each issue on its own merits. Not because it resounds with or emanates from the left or right...but because after examining it thoroughly what's left IS right.
What a hypocrite!
Posted by: Sam S at December 02, 2006 04:00 PM (iBgGu)
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I fear for your grandchildren, too, Sue.
I fear they will be working in Chinese-owned sweatshops to pay back all the money Bush has borrowed off them to fight his phony wars...
Posted by: monkyboy at December 02, 2006 04:31 PM (unUeA)
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The leftists put us last...because to them...WE stand in the way of their childlike pursuit of nirvana. They want to party like it's 1999. And they don't want to live in the real world post 2001.
cfbleachers,
Apparently you still want to party like it's November the 6th. The people have spoken, and they've told your kind to STFU. Besides, Cy said there was, "zero evidence that the NSA program violates, or even comes close to violating, any laws." The court ruling while not 100% proving that the program does violate the law--because it is being appealed--does prove there is more than zero evidence.
And those who were talking about "getting a search warrent in only 72 hours" and "that's what FISA is there for" are stupid beyond their years. I could write a book (I have already written a report) and the shortcomings of FISA and how a "warrant wait" of even 3 hours would have cost us a HUGE terrorist attack two years ago.
Wb, I don't see how someone as ignorant as you would have any standing to write a book, FISA says the Government has up to 72 hours after the fact to get a warrant, thereby making you assertion that there is any "warrant wait" involved baldfaced idiocy.
What you are all saying can be boiled down to the same logical fallacy that Bill O'Reilly used when he asked Dave Letterman the loaded question, "Do you want the U.S. to win in Iraq?" No one on the left has ever said that we shouldn't prevent terrorism. In fact we mostly want all the same things you do, except we want to do it within the law.
BTW: Sorry I couldn't have responded sooner, we had our units Christmas Party at Drill today.
Posted by: Frederick at December 02, 2006 06:53 PM (jSBbA)
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You a junior cadet Freddy? LOL Sounds like it - as if your credentials hold up against WB and cf. Have at it.
Posted by: Specter at December 02, 2006 08:58 PM (ybfXM)
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FRED:
I want to thank you for your post--nothing I could have said or done could have proved what I was saying more than your post did.
You're an idiot and I surely hope that was not a CP for a military unit you are a part of--if it is, then John Kerry was certainly talking about you...
I have seen two terrorism cases go south and have read all the reports on them (it was what I was asked to write a white paper about--to demonstrate the problems that were encountered so it didn't happen again).
Both of these cases were lost, one due to a FISA judge not getting the HUGE VOLUME OF PAPERWORK on time (it had to go through channels, just like anything else)...the other, the suspects broke observation and were lost because no one could put everything together for the FISA warrant in this situation because they WERE NOT WHERE THE INFORMATION COULD BE COMPILED IN TIME...That is all that can be said about that.
I know about FISA warrants, FRED. You don't have a clue what you're talking about. But like a typical liberal--you spout off your mouth because you've hear a sound-byte on TV. Good for you, that makes you such an expert that you can call others names and attack their credibility. Well, I can certainly repay the favor in name-calling...but I'll back mine up with fact...You are a complete idiot and a FISA challenged moron. Here's why...
Your complete lack of understanding of FISA and how a FISA warrant must obtained--what those guidelines are for obtaining one--and what the 72 hours after action warrant requires is glaring and reeks of your complete stupidity on the subject.
First, Not EVERY NECESSARY WARRANT PERTAINING TO TERRORISM FALLS UNDER THE EMERGENCY FISA 72 HOUR ALOWANCE you refer to...get your facts straight before you try to sound like an expert, ok? Again, your arrogance proved my point. You have no idea what you are talking about and still you have the gaul to criticize others who are far more knowledgeable than you on the subject.
This is typical of your leftwing, Nancy-boy species.
The FISA fact is, unless you are POSITIVE you can declare the situational need as an "emergency" under the FISA rules, you're screwed if you try to collect the information from a "source".
You will not only lose the rights to the information you collected, but you will lose the ability to USE that information or pass it on to anyone who could use it. In fact, if a possible terrorist action is recorded and the judge didn't sign the FISA warrant in time, you still can't do a thing with what you know...and despite what you lefties like to shout, these guys follow the rules. Too many of our people are fearful of being sued or thrown in jail--which isn't necessarily a bad thing.
So Fred, since you are an expert on FISA--expert enough to sum it up with one sentence and call into question my "qualifications", let me spell some of this out for the other "unenlightened leftwing nuts" who might be out there reading this.
FISA warrant guidelines are a lot more stringent than a regular court is. In fact, those seeking the warrant must be able to prove beyond a reasonable doubt (yes--beyond a reasonable doubt, not just suspect something, like we can sometimes have in normal warrants for police officers from regular judges).
You must have a "...factual basis for issuance of an order under this subchapter to approve such surveillance exists."
Hey Fred, that was real legal language I was using. I was quoting from the actual U.S.C. on that--but I'm sure you already knew this--since you're are so incredibly intelligent...not!
So, what are the guidelines for this factual basis? Maybe Fred can tell everyone. He's an expert on FISA--he knows so much he can criticize those of us who do this for a living...but, since Fred isn't here right now, I'll tell you what those guidelines are. I happen to have a personal copy, but you can also find these guidelines on the Internet(at least the unclassified proceedures)...but first, we have to make sure that no US citzens are going to be mistakenly gathered up in our warrant. Which is reasonable--and it should therefore be easy to demonstrate...or is it...?
50 U.S.C. Section 1805(a)(3)(A):
"...on the basis of the facts submitted by the applicant there is probable cause to believe that—
(A) the target of the electronic surveillance is a foreign power or an agent of a foreign power...
See Fred, more legal stuff. Have you ever READ these FISA codes, Fred? Have you ever been involved with a FISA-based case? Do you even know what a FISA warrant "application" looks like. Have you ever in your life read one? Do you work with DHS and have you ever dealt with matters involving FISA and terrorism warrants?
Have you Mr. Expert Fred? I doubt it. People like you would have their head explode if they ever bothered to read all the facts and reason out an intelligent argument about something.
So, in the hopes that your head will explode, let me give you a little lesson on your so-called FISA 72 hour "application" and what it really means. And Mr. Expert Fred, we HAVE lost warrants due to a SINGLE 3 HOUR WAIT because the paperwork did not move through the system fast enough after the application was submitted.
You see Fred, unlike you, I don't just run off at the mouth without having the facts on hand--like you do.
What you are referring to (the 72 hours clause) is found in the United States Code on FISA. For those who are familiar with legal documents, it is known as:
50 U.S.C. Sec. 1805(f)
Under (a), you will find what has to be filled out and submitted within your 72 hours...the list is long and difficult to compile under the best of circumstance. I have seen FISA warrant requests that took 18 days to complete...18 DAYS. And those are NOT that rare, Fred...
Here's what has to be submitted...and it's not a single file folder--I've seen it thick enough to measure with a ruler.
QUOTED:
It shall include—
(1) the identity of the Federal officer making the application;
(2) the authority conferred on the Attorney General by the President of the United States and the approval of the Attorney General to make the application;
(3) the identity, if known, or a description of the target of the electronic surveillance;
(4) a statement of the facts and circumstances relied upon by the applicant to justify his belief that—
(A) the target of the electronic surveillance is a foreign power or an agent of a foreign power; and
(B) each of the facilities or places at which the electronic surveillance is directed is being used, or is about to be used, by a foreign power or an agent of a foreign power;
(5) a statement of the proposed minimization procedures;
(6) a detailed description of the nature of the information sought and the type of communications or activities to be subjected to the surveillance;
(7) a certification or certifications by the Assistant to the President for National Security Affairs or an executive branch official or officials designated by the President from among those executive officers employed in the area of national security or defense and appointed by the President with the advice and consent of the Senate—
(A) that the certifying official deems the information sought to be foreign intelligence information;
(B) that a significant purpose of the surveillance is to obtain foreign intelligence information;
(C) that such information cannot reasonably be obtained by normal investigative techniques;
(D) that designates the type of foreign intelligence information being sought according to the categories described in section 1801 (e) of this title; and
(E) including a statement of the basis for the certification that—
(i) the information sought is the type of foreign intelligence information designated; and
(ii) such information cannot reasonably be obtained by normal investigative techniques;
(

a statement of the means by which the surveillance will be effected and a statement whether physical entry is required to effect the surveillance;
(9) a statement of the facts concerning all previous applications that have been made to any judge under this subchapter involving any of the persons, facilities, or places specified in the application, and the action taken on each previous application;
(10) a statement of the period of time for which the electronic surveillance is required to be maintained, and if the nature of the intelligence gathering is such that the approval of the use of electronic surveillance under this subchapter should not automatically terminate when the described type of information has first been obtained, a description of facts supporting the belief that additional information of the same type will be obtained thereafter; and
(11) whenever more than one electronic, mechanical or other surveillance device is to be used with respect to a particular proposed electronic surveillance, the coverage of the devices involved and what minimization procedures apply to information acquired by each device.
So Fred, go somewhere else to try and impress people and pretend you're a real man who knows the score. Your efforts here have only served to prove to everyone you're stupid.
Sorry CY, but like I said on the phone...I like intelligent liberals who discuss matters and have open debate with conservatives--they're good, and we balance each other out in the end...but people like Fred and some of the others here are just butt-stupid, and the sad part is they don't even realize it.
Posted by: WB at December 02, 2006 09:28 PM (83VP/)
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You can get away with a lot when you're a winner
Indeed. Give up on integrity and all things become possible.
Posted by: Purple Avenger at December 02, 2006 09:44 PM (p9O/F)
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WB: I read your two posts with interest. I think all mature citizens see a tradeoff between security and privacy, and as such it's interesting to hear the point of view of those on the enforcement side.
The trouble is, you didn't convince me that FISA is a bad thing. You gave an example of where a three hour delay in obtaining a warrant would have resulted in a huge attack. Then you state that the "72 hours after" rule applies only in special cases, like an emergency. What's the problem exactly? The three-hour situation certainly qualified as an emergency, so why not use the 72 hour rule. You say that you all risk losing access to your information if you invoke the 72 hour rule and the situation turns out not to be an emergency. That seems like a fair tradeoff to me. What am I missing?
Second, you say the filing requirements are onerous:
It shall include—
(1) the identity of the Federal officer making the application;
...
(11) whenever more than one electronic, mechanical or other surveillance device is to be used with respect to a particular proposed electronic surveillance, the coverage of the devices involved and what minimization procedures apply to information acquired by each device.
I believe that law enforcement absolutely should answer those questions before eavesdropping on a citizen. Do you not think so?
Third, the background here is the NSA wiretapping program. That judge in Detroit and the FISA judge who quit in protest of it obviously don't think it's constitutional. Are you saying it's constitutional, or not constitutional but necessary, or what?
You'll probably think I'm being snarky here but it's not so. You are not doubt angry about people like me, but I hope you can understand that I see my job as a citizen as protecting the Constitution. We survived WWII without cowering, and I believe we can survive terrorist attacks without cowering too.
Thanks for your consideration.
Posted by: Sam S at December 02, 2006 10:22 PM (iBgGu)
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Sam, I know for a fact that the FISA judge who quit did so without ever being briefed on the NSA program, and that not a single one of the other FISA judges has uttered so much as a word of protest, nor resigned, after they were briefed.
The Detriot judge, Anna Diggs Taylor, issued an opinion that legal experts on both sides feel will be overturned, due in no small part to her opinion was very poorly written and ill-reasoned. The judge shold not have even allowed the case to have been brought; even partisan lefties (including sockpuppet, I think) agree that the plantiffs don't have the standing to bring the case.
A typical reaction to her ruling, from the WaPo:
...the decision yesterday by a federal district court in Detroit, striking down the NSA's program, is neither careful nor scholarly, and it is hard-hitting only in the sense that a bludgeon is hard-hitting. The angry rhetoric of U.S. District Judge Anna Diggs Taylor will no doubt grab headlines. But as a piece of judicial work -- that is, as a guide to what the law requires and how it either restrains or permits the NSA's program -- her opinion will not be helpful...
...her opinion, which as the first court venture into this territory will garner much attention, is unhelpful either in evaluating or in ensuring the program's legality.
And Sam, if you want to invoke WWII, remember that the President, FDR, sent tens of thousands of U.S. citizens to internment (concentration) camps without a trial or the possibility of an appeal for the duration of the war without any evidence whatsoever, executed terrorists after military tribunals without appeal or the false application of Geneva Rights, interpreted his constitutional powers as being far more extensive, and curtailed the freedoms of American citizens far more, than President Bush has ever considered.
Quite frankly, I think FDR would feel President Bush isn't using his Presidential powers enough, and based upon his actions, I'm certain he'd be disgusted by the abject moral cowardness and inability to do what is in the best interests of America by those who now claim to lead his party.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at December 02, 2006 11:23 PM (HcgFD)
50
“You're an idiot and I surely hope that was not a CP for a military unit you are a part of--if it is, then John Kerry was certainly talking about you…”
I’d take that as an insult, if the truth was that Kerry had ever insulted the troops in the instance you’re referring to from right before the election. Seeing as it was directed at Bush and not the troops, I have no reason to be upset.
“Have you ever READ these FISA codes, Fred? Have you ever been involved with a FISA-based case? Do you even know what a FISA warrant "application" looks like. Have you ever in your life read one? Do you work with DHS and have you ever dealt with matters involving FISA and terrorism warrants?”
I work with a Task Force that falls under the DHS, but no, I do not deal with FISA warrants. But in light of your statement, “FISA warrant guidelines are a lot more stringent than a regular court is. In fact, those seeking the warrant must be able to prove beyond a reasonable doubt,” I’m wondering if you’re that familiar yourself. Are you sure you don’t mean, “probable cause?” That is--and I’m sure I don’t have to tell you this because you are far more knowledgeable than me on this--what. 1805(a)(3) describes, “probable cause.”
I seem to remember a bill a while back introduced by former Senator DeWine that wanted to change the standard from “probable cause” to “reasonable suspicion,” a suggestion that was rebuked by Bush’s own DOJ because, “there may be little to gain from the lower standard,” and it would, “potentially put at risk ongoing investigations and prosecutions,” the probability being that Courts would find it unconstitutional**.
Basically what you are saying is the same conclusion that the 911 Commission came to:
"Many agents in the field told us that although there is now less hesitancy in seeking approval for electronic surveillance under the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act, or FISA, the application process nonetheless continues to be long and slow," the commission said. "Requests for such approvals are overwhelming the ability of the system to process them and to conduct the surveillance. The Department of Justice and FBI are attempting to address bottlenecks in the process."
I hope you will be on the phone to your Senator to encourage the Democratic Party to follow through on their campaign pledge to implement all the 911 Commission’s recommendations. We all want to combat terrorism. Once again, however, we must do it within the law.
P.S CY, why did Raygun sign the Civil Liberties Act of 1988?
Posted by: Frederick at December 02, 2006 11:51 PM (jSBbA)
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Sam S:
Actually, I’m not against FISA. I think FISA is a good thing—the problem is most people and the media act like FISA is a “cure-all” for all our terrorism surveillance needs. It’s a good safeguard in most cases, but it has some glaring shortcomings that have needed to be addressed for a long time. FISA can’t be used as a solution for every important situation that involves terrorism eavesdropping. That was why the NSA program was started…and it’s not the only one out there. It’s just the only one the public knows about right now.
The problem with the emergency warrant situation we’ve been discussing is that you have to determine that it is an emergency situation BEFORE you start your eavesdropping and enter into the FISA arena for your warrant.
That’s not as easy to do as you may think—you can put 2 and 2 together in the field to make four, but for those numbers to add up to get a warrant under FISA? That isn’t always so easy or straightforward. If you declare your situation needs an emergency warrant, start your surveillance, and the court says it wasn’t an emergency—you just got your surveillance killed and all of your evidence is lost--forever. I would be willing to go on record in saying that in about 60% to 70% of the cases that need to go to FISA for a warrant (emergency or not), losing the evidence that they obtained would cause the investigators to lose an important contact or some kind of critical piece of information.
If it turns out that your situation is not an emergency, but you thought it was—then you are in deep, deep trouble. A wrong call can be a career killer--Both from a supervisory standpoint, and an evidentiary one. Not only have you lost the warrant, but you also lost any leads or clues you gained from the investigation--so you are just plain screwed. And, if that lead results in a terrorist action, people then get upset that you didn’t act on what you found—even though those same people were the ones who tied your hands in the first place.
It’s a no-win situation--and as I said before, it’s not cut-and-dry trying to determine if something justifies an emergency warrant or not. Hindsight is how the public will judge officials and law enforcement when it comes to those actions, but when you’re on that side of the situation, public opinion and the MSM are uninformed and merciless in their reactions against you. You have to be right 100% of the time. The terrorists only have to be right one time...
Those FISA judges who sit on the bench are not necessarily the best judges or the most qualified. Some are good, some are bad. They are much like any other judge you go to for a warrant—they have pet peeves and things they like or dislike seeing in a warrant request—and unlike the officers going to them for the warrant—those judges are immune to public opinion and outcry. See, that “three hour situation” I was talking about was (with hindsight) very important, but at the time it appeared to be only a possible candidate in its qualifications as an emergency--possible, but not a “shoe-in” for a warrant being awarded.
So, do you risk your case or even your job (and yes, it could be your job if a terrorist strike or transfer of arms succeeds because you lost the warrant to a judge's opinion or didn’t ask for the emergency warrant in the first place)? Evidence was good, but could be considered less credible depending on how a judge looked at it. So, you’re the breadwinner in your family and it’s your call--what do you do?
Not as cut and dry anymore, is it? This is what I mean when I'm talking about the issues. There are many other things to be considered when you are talking surveillance and monitoring terrorism activities. You can’t argue FISA modifications and NSA programs with soundbytes from TV, radio, and a comments section in a Blog. It is highly complex and if you don’t take the time to study it, you really can’t correctly assess what is truly at stake and what really should be done.
On something as important as a suspect surveillance warrant, the variables in each circumstance as to whether or not to call for an emergency warrant vs. not calling for one--those variables defy a pat answer.
Yet knowing that either decision you make can cause you to lose your important lead and allow a terrorist to slip past you--that can and does cause a lot of wasteful and unnecessary “rethinking” and bureaucratic second-guessing during an operation. Do you really want to risk it and lose everything—can you afford not to? Do you want to lose your job because you called it wrong one way or the other? Not every circumstance it this extreme, but many are. As you maybe can see now, these situations are often not so “cut and dry”. The MSM and the public are quick to forget such facts when it comes to the War on Terrorism.
Remember how much the MSM and people have criticized the FBI and other agencies about the pre-911 refusal to seek a warrant for the computer information that field agents wanted to get off of the terrorist’s computer? That’s not quite the same as the FISA/NSA issues we are discussing here, but what I’m getting at is how the public takes way too much for granted and oversimplifies the situation with their 20/20 hindsight. We look back on that situation knowing that these people flew jets into buildings and killed thousands of people, but that was an absolutely unthinkable scenario to those making the warrant decision at that time.
I’m not defending what was done, but I am saying that we tend to gloss over those kind of facts when we “rush to judgment” on such important matters. The AG saw the warrant as a huge mess that he might lose before a judge and he didn’t want the problems that would be associated with such a loss. In the end, we all know that this was a terribly bad decision. However, at that time, it was also a bureaucratic decision. Sadly, within the agencies, it is not much different now—its just that the bar has been lowered a little this time around. And through it all, the ill-informed public and media outcries have made indecisive quagmires out of things that should have been easy decisions to begin with.
As for the eavesdropping requirements, I do agree with you on the need for this kind of accountability in the warrant “application”. But, due to how the terrorists are operating today, there also needs to be a more streamlined way to get those questioned answered—FISA is not there yet and though it is a good system--it’s not near perfect and it needs to be changed to meet the changing tactics of our enemies. NSA was trying to do this, but to no avail--thus the "by-pass". Which is what started the “tiff” between the FISA judges and the NSA.
Terrorists work hard to operate behind the same rights as US Citizens have--so if we are to be successful, something has to give. We have to come up with realistic solutions if we are going to be expected to get the "bad guys" before they get us. It’s not a comfortable thought (nor should it be), but it is a reality we have to face. Either we accept that fact that we are going to get hit once in a while and suffer massive casualties and economically crippling attacks, or we get much more aggressive with our surveillance.
The real world is not a pretty place to live and you can’t have it both ways. It is going to be one or the other--no matter how many times you click your heels together and tell yourself "There's no place like home". Yes, we need to seriously question these issues that affect our freedoms--but at the same time, we need to do it with a full willingness to face the consequences of our questions and decisions. Over the last 20 years, the public has never been willing to do that.
That justice who quit the FISA was no big deal as those involved with FISA know it was more about ego and a judicial power grab, not the Constitution. There are quite a few "inside" comments and stories about that event and why it really happened. It's interesting to see people use that judge's resignation as proof the NSA program was illegal...they have no idea all the factors that went into that resignation...and the Constitution was not top of the list.
Put simply, the NSA project is constitutional if you read it one way, maybe constitutional in a "gray way" if you read it another. However, the cold hard fact about the program is/was what the President said (whether you like him or not):
…If you are an American Citizen and you are talking to known terrorists, we want to know what you are saying…
Add to that statement all the things Abraham Lincoln wrote about personal freedom during times that threatened the country. Read what he said should be done. Read about some of the things he did. It’s a real eye-opener for some people. And yet he fought harder to protect the Constitution than any other President before or since.
Constitutional extremists may find things to nitpick concerning the NSA program, but if you read the papers of our forefathers who wrote the Constitution, the past Supreme Court rulings concerning actions by Presidents from the Civil War through WWII, you will find that seeking out and going after US Citizens who act in a manner that poses a threat to the United States—specifically those communicating with foreign interests which are in open conflict with our country (which is what the NSA wiretaps were going after)...you will find that over the years, the “powers that be” were given sweeping authority to protect the common good and go after those people. The NSA program targets foreigners who are considered and known to be dangerous to the United States. If a US Citizen is talking to them, well, I’m sorry, we really do need to know what is going on there. The NSA program has not weakened us—and in fact has given us a HUGE shield of protection—right up to the point that it was announced to the public.
I am certainly not angry with you, Sam S. or people like you. Your comments to me and questions were quite legitimate and I am happy to discuss them with you...and am happy to hear and consider your thoughts on the matter.
It’s the people like Frederic, who have no idea what they are talking and yet have to resort to name calling and accusations to attempt to prove they are right--those are the people who anger me.
About not cowering in the past, if you mean not giving up our personal freedoms and rights in order to fight WWII...Please research World War II a bit more. Look at a number of the less talked about monitoring programs the government implemented and what our government did on the home front to find spies and citizens working against the war effort (some of the programs during WWII were so far-reaching and invasive on our personal freedoms that they are still classified). Those powers and invasions of privacy (in many, many cases) were far more sweeping in power than the NSA and other agencies have asked for today. Were there abuses? Certainly there were. But here’s what is most important to remember about that. Every time those sweeping powers were granted, we recovered our freedoms and moved on after it was over. It didn’t topple us or cause a Constitutional Crisis as so many have feared would happen.
Pertaining to the protection of the Constitution, technically, it is the government’s job (including all three branches) to protect the Constitution. It is our job to oversee the government that does this protecting. However, it is also our job to give our government the ability to carry out that protective task--even if it means temporarily limiting some freedoms we have for the common good of our country.
If we can’t trust those who are in the government with that protective power, then we must vote them out and vote in those who we can trust to carry out this vitally important task…
That’s why in the past the US has always been such a successfully dynamic and powerful country:
We have always been able to strike that delicate balance with our government….
Thanks for the discussion—I hope this has answered some of the questions you were asking me.
Posted by: WB at December 03, 2006 01:27 AM (yR9hl)
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Frederic,
Yes, I'm aware of the Resonable Doubt/Probable Cause statements...but I was typing "freestyle" and not proofing for that. Most people unfamiliar with this would not notice or care about the nuances of the wording. And all of this can be pretty boring anyway, so I didn't really give it a second thought. Things are different when I have to do these blasted reports, though. Apologies for playing a little "fast and loose" with the terminolgy. Because of what you posted this last time, (DeWine, etc), it certainly makes the terminology being used by me very important.
Curiously enough, your last post shows that the FISA process can be very slow...in fact for the "72 hours warrant" that was mentioned...it is many times not fast enough. Again, I have seen it lost for want of three hours.
Overall, the FISA system is not broken (per se) but it does need to be given a good hard look and that look should be done with recent terrorist practices in mind.
I'm very sorry to have landed on you so hard in my last posts. CY will tell you that I have just heard so much in this line of work and received so many accusations from "professionals and experts" who don't know the drill...you just get tired of it and end up some nights with a very short fuse. Tonight was one of those nights...
Your last post was well done and had some great points...and please accept my apologies for jumping back at you so hard. Also, thanks for your Task Force work under DHS. It's appreciated.
Posted by: WB at December 03, 2006 01:58 AM (0dT+n)
53
WB: thanks so much for taking the time to write that. You probably don't realize how rare that perspective is for many of us, and it gives me an appreciation for the job. I have a couple of remarks.
I have two things to say about "if you are an American Citizen and you are talking to known terrorists, we want to know what you are saying." First, well sure that's as it should be. It's a sore point because the GOP has made a false issue into a bludgeon. I've never met anyone who objected to eavesdropping on 'known terrorists', and if FISA makes that difficult it's broken. The GOP keeps calling us sympathizers, and it's tiresome. Second, at one point someone stated that the surveillance program was constitutional because there were no names associated with the data. That's fatuous, because anyone can reverse lookup phone numbers. The president of Qwest refused to participate because he felt it was unconstitutional. The program smells funny to me, and as I said above I feel it's my highest duty as a citizen to be vigilant for exactly that kind of abuse.
My other point is that most of the anti-terrorism measures I see demonstrate incompetence, and I have to wonder how much is really getting done. I hope it's clear that I mean no disrespect by this. A lot of the safeguards are theater. A good example is when New York introduced a policy where every so many people who enter a subway station are asked to submit their bags for inspection, but it's optional. A child terrorist could figure out that he should refuse to have his bag searched and then walk to the next subway station instead. Showing ID to get on an airplane is silly; ask any teenager about fake ID's. Those Muslim/Christian/martial arts guys in Florida were bozos. The more recent case where a guy supposedly tried to mix a bomb from liquids is dubious according to all the chemists I've heard from, yet you can't bring a bottle of water onto an airplane. Pretend you're a terrorist for half an hour and you can come up with better ways to kill people that are no better safeguarded now than they were ten years ago. On the other hand, pull out a box cutter on an airplane now and you're going to get your ass beat quick, yet look where all our efforts seem to be going. A lot of what I see seems to be along the lines of "show the citizenry that we're on the job," and have the unfortunate side-effect of making us more tractable. You say a huge plot was foiled at one time, but I never heard about that. The two trumpeted cases that I mentioned above don't seem very impressive.
Thank you for the discussion. I really am grateful for your time.
Posted by: Sam S at December 03, 2006 02:32 AM (iBgGu)
54
Sam, nobody cares if someone is banging their neighbors wife, cheating on their taxes, or conspiring to buy a bag of weed from the mailroom boy, or organizing a demonstration to save the freaking whales.
DIA, NSA, CIA, FBI, NRO, ASA, etc THEY DON'T CARE about that stuff and neither does anyone else.
If someone can't trust the people charged with protecting this nation at least that much, then just getting out of bed in the morning and going to work must be a damn terrifying experience for them.
Posted by: Purple Avenger at December 03, 2006 04:55 AM (p9O/F)
55
cfbleachers said: Truth is like kryptonite to leftists ... I advocate being an "issue-ist". Decide each issue on its own merits. Not because it resounds with or emanates from the left or right...but because after examining it thoroughly what's left IS right.
"What a hypocrite!"
LOL...usually people have to know at least where I stand on more than one issue...before labeling me a hypocrite. Apparently, Sam S doesn't like where I stand on THIS issue...since I agree with WB...
"A lot of the safeguards are theater..."
Not a bad point...just not thought completely through...
A lot of TERRORISM...is theater. Terrorism is designed not to defeat a military, but to impose fear in the populace and weaken their will. While most of the hard work that goes on, does so behind the scenes, you still need to combat the effects of terrorism by making a show of force of the GOOD guys.
In addition, terrorists are human (at least partially) and they make mistakes. People trained in law enforcement, who have been doing it for some time...are capable of "reading the street". They can see things that are outside the norm often enough...(not always, of course)...to make it helpful to set up a few "gauntlets" that terrorists would have to walk.
Lastly, I don't know who the "friends" are that are chemists...who don't believe that certain mixed chemicals can cause a sizeable explosion, noxious and deadly fumes, or be combustible with the use of a small lighter or match...apparently they never had a kid's chemistry set or knew my cousin Vincent as a ten year old! LOL
Posted by: cfbleachers at December 03, 2006 10:42 AM (5RM9g)
56
PA,
There are a whole list of arguments that could be made, but this should never be one of them; "trust us" is not a valid point. There's a reason the Constitution has checks and balances, and it's not because the drafters had the attitude that they trusted the people in charge. Please, never call yourself a conservative if this is your argument:
"If someone can't trust the people charged with protecting this nation at least that much, then just getting out of bed in the morning and going to work must be a damn terrifying experience for them."
Posted by: runner at December 03, 2006 12:58 PM (cPZB0)
57
Purple Avenger said: Sam, nobody cares if someone is banging their neighbors wife, cheating on their taxes, or conspiring to buy a bag of weed from the mailroom boy, or organizing a demonstration to save the freaking whales.
DIA, NSA, CIA, FBI, NRO, ASA, etc THEY DON'T CARE about that stuff and neither does anyone else.
If someone can't trust the people charged with protecting this nation at least that much, then just getting out of bed in the morning and going to work must be a damn terrifying experience for them.
That is naive, sure they care. I already gave you the example of Nixon. Politician have a huge incentive to get dirt on their enemies. You can extrapolate from there. There are moral and immoral people in every branch of government. Suppose an immoral person at the NSA has a grudge against some guy for bilking the agent's dad out of $10,000 in a shady real estate deal, or the guy that got his daughter pregnant, or so on and so on. Haven't you heard "power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely"?
When Benjamin Franklin famously said, "A republic if you can keep it," he meant if you, the citizenry, can keep the government in check. The foundation of the US is the unending struggle against tyranny.
Posted by: Sam S at December 03, 2006 01:20 PM (iBgGu)
58
cfbleachers: I just can't see how you can fairly entertain ideas from the left since you believe that truth is alien to the left.
Here is the first link that turned up from my Google search for "airplane bomb mixing liquids chemistry": http://www.theregister.co.uk/2006/08/17/flying_toilet_terror_labs/
maybe it's wrong, but that's exactly what I read from two other sources back at the time.
Posted by: Sam S at December 03, 2006 01:32 PM (iBgGu)
59
Suppose an immoral person at the NSA has a grudge against some guy for bilking the agent's dad out of $10,000 in a shady real estate deal
Then there's no "law" written on paper that can stop them.
Cops aren't supposed to do contract killings, yet some have done so in the past. I knew an oldschool ex-NYPD wireman (now dead) who routinely wiretapped and performed break ins without a warrant for years. If you don't care if the information gathered is admissible or not in court, lack of a warrant isn't much deterrent.
If you think you can somehow legislate moral behavior, you're living in a fantasy world.
Posted by: Purple Avenger at December 03, 2006 05:44 PM (p9O/F)
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Purple Avenger: Then there's no "law" written on paper that can stop them.
Most citizens are law abiding. The rest should be punished. Why the quotation marks around 'law'? I'm confused.
Cops aren't supposed to do contract killings, yet some have done so in the past
What does that prove?
If you think you can somehow legislate moral behavior, you're living in a fantasy world.
I'm just baffled by this post. I don't understand what you are trying to say.
Posted by: Sam S at December 04, 2006 02:10 AM (iBgGu)
61
I don't understand what you are trying to say.
I'm not surprised. I doubt you ever could.
Posted by: Purple Avenger at December 04, 2006 03:43 AM (p9O/F)
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"I just can't see how you can fairly entertain ideas from the left since you believe that truth is alien to the left."
Couple of points SS...I can entertain viewpoints from anywhere. LeftISTS...have a nasty habit these days of not being terribly fond of the facts. LeftIST dogma is no more appetizing to me than rightIST dogma. That doesn't mean that a viewpoint that emanates left or right of center has ZERO merit...it means that people attached to dogma and who manipulate and distort the facts are not particularly credible.
I believe the greatest danger in modern America stems from leftIST dogma. I think the Ministry of Media and all their branches intentionally distort facts and have bastardized our information stream in order to advance a leftIST dogma.
This doesn't mean that anyone who falls left of center can't have a good idea, or that all their viewpoints are wrong or bad. If you read anything I have written, I have made comments about Joe Lieberman, Bill Clinton, Hillary, Jim Baker, Scowcroft...it would be tough to pigeonhole me on a particular issue, to know where I would stand...BEFORE the facts are in.
Not true of people attached to a dogma. Or those who reside in the echo chamber.
I just see (in terms of national defense, homeland security, Saddam Hussein and Iraq) that most of the lies, distortions, manipulation of facts, against America (and Israel)...consistently stem from leftISTS...and their dogma, their Ministry of Media and then parroted by the lemmings in their echo chamber choir. I find that...harmful, seditious, despicable and in need of constant highlighting.
Posted by: cfbleachers at December 04, 2006 10:01 AM (5RM9g)
63
I agree with cfbleachers! All of the lies about Saddam having WMDs, about being greeted as liberators, as having flower petals strewn before us were made by Leftists (whatever that term happens to mean, as I guess most of America is Leftist now).
And, really, why shouldn't we let the Government listen to our conversations. They're so good at finding bad guys (let's not mention Osama). And they're just doing everything they can to protect us. Why, with the amount of government brainpower on this site, it's a wonder we still have a Constitution!
Posted by: O'brien at December 04, 2006 06:51 PM (P0dq1)
64
Purple Avenger: "I don't understand what you are trying to say."
I'm not surprised. I doubt you ever could.
I ask for clarification and you take that as proof of your superiority? You're not worth my time. Your penultimate post was obtuse.
Posted by: Sam S at December 04, 2006 06:54 PM (iBgGu)
65
"All of the lies about Saddam having WMDs"
I don't happen to think that Clinton, Albright, Cohen, Berger, et al...were lying. This is an inane issue. He had them. He used them. He was preparing to make more. Try to keep up.
"...were made by Leftists (whatever that term happens to mean, as I guess most of America is Leftist now)"
Now? Why? The CENTER voted to teach the Republicans a lesson. It didn't MOVE leftward, it voted in a way that moved the country just over 50% for Republicans previously, and just over 50% for Democrats recently. The country is a center....maybe slightly right of center country. Nothing changed that dynamic. You are going to be sorely disappointed if you view it any other way. "Most" Americans aren't any different than they have been...they still don't like the seditious left.
"And, really, why shouldn't we let the Government listen to our conversations."
The issue is whether there is a legitimate state interest in a limited surveillance of international communications. Again, try to keep up.
"They're so good at finding bad guys (let's not mention Osama)."
If we aren't as good as we should be...shouldn't we be doing things to make it easier to find the enemy, rather than harder???? I would think that would be a logical progression to this argument...but, maybe your view of who the enemy is...like most leftists...is America...instead of those who want to destroy her. I can't speak for you...
"And they're just doing everything they can to protect us."
And you think they should do less? We should make it as hard as possible to protect us? Maybe do nothing at all? What do you think would be reasonable to do, to attack our enemies, to stop their evil acts? I've not yet heard ONE CONCRETE IDEA from leftists on this. I think I know why...
"Why, with the amount of government brainpower on this site, it's a wonder we still have a Constitution!"
Again...leftists have this exalted view of how brilliant they are. When examined more closely...they really fall far behind the center in terms of college and post-graduate degrees statistically. In fact, they place third...behind conservatives in terms of numbers of Americans with college or graduate degrees. Centrists place first...by a wide margin.
The Constitution is not in trouble, but the Republic is...if we allow leftists to dominate the information stream with lies and distortions.
So, here are a couple of simple questions:
1)Do you believe there is a legitimate state interest in protecting America and Americans from sleeper cells of Islamic fanatics who want to harm us?
2)Do you believe that surveillance of their communications is a legitimate tool in protecting America and Americans, IF you agree with 1) above?
3)What is/are your concrete suggestion(s) for accomplishing the task of interrupting their cash flow, communications and planning?
Posted by: cfbleachers at December 04, 2006 08:57 PM (5RM9g)
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November 30, 2006
Again, We Are At War With Iran
Like it, or not.
U.S. officials say they have found smoking-gun evidence of Iranian support for terrorists in Iraq: brand-new weapons fresh from Iranian factories. According to a senior defense official, coalition forces have recently seized Iranian-made weapons and munitions that bear manufacturing dates in 2006.
This suggests, say the sources, that the material is going directly from Iranian factories to Shia militias, rather than taking a roundabout path through the black market. "There is no way this could be done without (Iranian) government approval," says a senior official.
What say you now,
James Baker?
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
04:44 PM
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1
Could these be the same officials that leaked the negative al-Maliki memo?
News flash: Unnamed sources can have agendas.
This doesn't prove we are at war with Iran. Did you ever stop to think that Iran might be reacting to America's call for regime change in the country? So might have considered that "us" declaring "war" with them.
If so, it seems to make sense that they would be fighting a proxy war in Iraq.
Oh yeah, if they are doing this, it seems the fact that we've refused to speak to them would only encourage it: if you can't negoiate, it seems you only have one option left-- fight.
So I don't really get at all how this counters James Baker or the presumed Iraq Study Group's findings?
Posted by: Keith at November 30, 2006 05:18 PM (JNOoc)
2
If we could evade all of the previous evidence, we can evade this too.
I just hope we'll get around to admitting we understand the truth before Iran finishes its nuclear bomb.
Posted by: Bearster at November 30, 2006 05:30 PM (YyTqJ)
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Keith:
When we start chanting "Death to Iran" at church every Sunday like the Mullahs have been chanting "Death to America" every Friday since 1979, I might see reasoning in your post. So too when we take their diplomats hostage. We have been in a state of war with Iran for a long time, only we have been the ones acting with restraint and indifference.
Can I ask a personal question: Do you do business with people who tell you they hate you to your face and then accept what they say they will do (for your benefit)at face value? If you answer affirmatively, if he cheats you, are you surprised at his guile?
We should not "talk" to fomentors of hate and discord who pretend to be lovers of peace. To do so legitimizes brutes.
Posted by: wjo at November 30, 2006 05:45 PM (gI0Ku)
Posted by: brando at November 30, 2006 06:33 PM (K+VjK)
5
I'm with Keith -- any country that executes gays, must by definition, be reasonable and amenable to "negotiation".
Preach it Keith, preach it.
Posted by: Purple Avenger at November 30, 2006 07:07 PM (p9O/F)
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Gosh-- you guys do a really good job of engaging my basic argument.
To WJO:
Did America engage with Joseph Stalin, over Soviet leaders and Commnunist Red China, both states that had killed millions of their citizens?
Yes.
Did our nation doing that mean America approved of everything these regimes do (or myself for that matter)?
No.
Two other comments:
1) I really loved the Iranian history WJO. You should really add the Shah of Iran. You remember, that guy we funded who butchered his people and because of which an Islamic revolution happened in the first place.
Oh wait, I forgot-- everything America does is right, and trying to understand where your opponents--however horrible or not--come from is wrong.
It's amazing with a mindset like that our foreign policy could be in trouble today.
2) So what's your alternative? America is already losing Iraq. And because of that America under President Bush has made Iran more powerful, not less.
And oh yeah, if we attack them we can kiss our economic mobility away.
Clearly you all are right, we shouldn't talk to them at all. It has worked so well, and we totally have other options than negotiation.
But I'll give you all the benefit of the doubt and ask you this: what should we do with Iran instead, and is capable of success?
Posted by: Keith at November 30, 2006 07:46 PM (2lHh2)
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Gee, I can't possibly imagine why Iran would be seeking revenge against the Iraqi Sunnis. It's not like Saddam invaded them or something.
Oh, wait.
Posted by: scarshapedstar at November 30, 2006 07:51 PM (glUhi)
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POINTERS AND TIPS FOR IRAN - CANADIAN VIEW
I give you one piece of advice: Do not incite the American people to war. We in Canada know a lot about the US, and how they think, and how they live, much more than the average person in Bam, Iran, or Tyre, Lebanon, knows. You think that you can use hate as a weapon to build an attack against he US, but you know not what you do. The US has over 300 million people, and they are all soldiers. The US built its country by its own hands, and from the beginning, they all accepted that freedom, liberty, and democracy were not negotiable. If by some miracle, an invasion force of Iranians attempted a landing on US soil, every man, woman and child would be there to meet them. They would not relent until it was finished. On United Airlines Flight 93, a random assortment of 40 civilian Americans was suddenly called to arms in a miniature Middle Eastern war. The ex-policewoman air hostess, the environmentalist, the marketing executive, moved against the Islamists as one, and collectively said, "We are not afraid". Americans did not become timorous, or afraid after 9/11, instead they "got busy on yo’ ass". After 9/11, America did not back down, and they will not back down, because the attack incited individual Americans against every Islamist, and every person who supports Islamists, or gives comfort to them. Americans are not the same as the Russians in Afghanistan, or the French in Algeria. To defeat the US, you will have to kill every one of them, and you do not know how to do that.
You clearly do not understand how rich Americans are, how many resources they have at their disposal, how intelligent, perseverant, and creative they are. Their wealth is enormous, with massive amounts of built structure: large houses, soaring office towers, highways, schools, universities, hospitals, and military bases everywhere, spanning a continent. Honestly, if you had even an inkling of what you are up against, you would cease your pointless reverse crusade immediately.
Within the last century, Americans have become extremely interested in war. They think about it, talk about it, plan for, it and rehearse it constantly. They spend huge amounts on their military every year, building installations and weapons, many types of which you have never even heard about. Tens of millions of Americans have served, do serve, and will serve in their military. We Canadians sometimes stand back and look at the Americans bemused, because one seldom even sees any of the Canadian military presence in Canada, whereas the US National Guard units stationed near Buffalo, New York, alone, have sufficient resources at their disposal to kill every Muslim on earth. Of course the Americans are right to prepare for war, because there is always another one coming, and they know that they will probably be the main target. The US even declared a "War on Poverty" in the 1960's, but thankfully they relented before they began bombing the slums.
People who do not understand democracies constantly underestimate them. Hitler and Stalin certainly underestimated democracies. Many of those living in non-democracies think that in the current situation in the US, with huge internal dissent, Democrats shouting misgivings about Iraq, and Republicans pontificating about treachery, and the enemy within, it may seem that the factions will cancel each other out, or with more Democrat influence, the whole tide of war will change. Instead, the US is exposing its power to the world, by thinking out loud, disagreeing publicly, and nit-picking endlessly over details in floods of political television programs. The election is over, and, the war on terror will go on, as all previous US wars have done, irrespective of the party in power. To understand US policy, look carefully at what is not said, because that is where they have reached implicit consensus. Neither side is talking about ending the war on terror -- instead they are bickering about the best way to kill Islamists.
For the Middle East, the scale of this war is enormous, which is clearly evident in the reportage of Al Jazeera, which mainly features events related to the war on terror. In contrast, this war has had no real effect on the US whatsoever. It is completely trivial. The US media talks about the war a lot, but Americans are always very interested in war in general, and there are no interesting sex scandals going on at the moment. If JonBenet Ramsay's murderer were to be found, CNN would focus completely on that, and behave for weeks as if the war on terror did not exist. So far, the war on terror has cost the US roughly 6,000 lives since 9/11, while over that same period, approximately 2,000,000 Americans have died from smoking. In the World War II epoch, spanning 1933-1945, about 70,000,000 people were killed, but only about 500,000 of them were Americans, and the US became stronger because of that war. Islamists hope to obtain nuclear weapons (in fact there really are no other weapons of mass destruction). With some luck, and perseverance, Islamists may be able to detonate a nuclear bomb in Times Square, New York, and kill 1,000,000 people, but that is 0.3% of the US population. The remaining 99.7% of the US population would then do to the Islamists what the US did to Japan. Later, in the years that followed such an event, some Americans would regret having turned several Middle Eastern countries into blowing ash, but there would be a reluctant final consensus that after the Times Square bombing, it had to be done, and they would be right.
In the meantime, the US grows stronger each day. Their economy is doing extremely well, providing levels of health and prosperity that even Ali Baba could not have dreamt about. Coca Cola is finally getting to challenge Pepsi in Afghanistan. As a bonus, the US military gets to interrupt its constant war games to practice and train in a real war in Iraq. These are almost perfect training circumstances, with lots of troop rotations, a very low casualty rate, a real but evanescent enemy, and a kill ratio of much higher than 10 to 1. It is a general's dream, and it's an excellent theatre to test, develop, and refine weapons and tactics, in preparation for Iran, when that battle becomes necessary.
The most powerful method the US has of defeating the Islamists is already in play, and it will ultimately succeed. We Canadians, as the constant neighbours and interlocutors of the Americans, know their secrets. Only 5% of Americans have passports, and their biggest single foreign travel destination is Canada. The Americans’ secret method is that they do not hate very well. They’re terrible at it. They don't teach their children to hate, they constantly forget who their enemies are, and they forgive adversaries, usually before the last bullet has landed. Islamists, and so many people in the Middle East, cling to hate as an addiction, passing it on to their children, cherishing it inside themselves, using it as the centerpiece of their lives. Hate, quite simply, like other addictions, is a waste of time and energy. Americans can't concentrate very long on hate. They lose interest, or forget what the fighting was all about, or follow up their wars with reconstruction plans for their vanquished enemies. From time to time, they get mad at "Krauts", or "Japs", or "Commies", but the next thing you know, the epithets are gone from the language, and things are back to normal, with Americans welcoming their former enemies into their country as immigrants, and marrying them, if possible.
Therefore, my advice to Islamists is to just give up fighting the US and forget about it. Your hate will not even be reciprocated, and you will probably still be welcomed as immigrants during the conflict. In the meantime, remember it's not the Americans fault that your son wants to play with X-Box, or your daughter wants to wear Prada. If you don’t like Coca-Cola, don’t buy it. By flaunting your hate, you expose your jealousy, and humiliate yourselves. At the end of the war on terror, those who hate will be no better off than they were, while the US, by not hating, will be ever brighter, as "the shining city on the hill".
Posted by: DemocracyRules at November 30, 2006 07:53 PM (+WNUd)
9
Keith
Would you like to talk to them about how we can drive Israel into the sea? Or would you rather talk to them about how the Holocaust was a fabrication.
Maybe you would like to talk to them about exporting terrorism around the world and how we might be able to get in on that game a little. It might be fun to know how to blow up schoolbuses filled with schoolchildren.
Just what would be on your agenda to talk with them about?
Because on their agenda is the extermination of the Jewish people from the face of the earth, the conversion of the world to Islam and forcing us to repent for not accepting their world view on homosexuals, free speech, freedom of religion, or...basically any other freedoms that you currently enjoy here.
What happens when talks fail...again...Keith? Should we sit around with them, toast marshmallows and sing Kumbaya?
If they don't want to listen, Keith...you can't have a real good conversation. You may be afraid to ever stand up to a bully...and there's no shame in being scared. But don't you think we ought to at least FEIGN some strength of character before we kneel before them and beg them to like us?
Posted by: cfbleachers at November 30, 2006 08:08 PM (V56h2)
10
This might actually mean something, if we hadn't sold numerous weapons of death to countless despotic regimes around the world, over the years.
It's hard to get upset, if this is actually true, when Iran engages in the same behavior that we consider acceptable for ourselves.
Posted by: AkaDad at November 30, 2006 08:21 PM (1RcP8)
11
There is no doubt Iran is an enemy of the United States. Talking to them or not talking to them is really not very important. They are the ones pulling the strings of the Mehdi Militia and the defacto power in Iraq. They control events in Iraq now. Iraq is lost. We are not going to salvage anything close to victory from this debacle. It's not pretty but we created this mess and now we will have to live with it's consequences. We need to think beyond the next phase. Iran will be the most powerful nation in the region. The Saudis have are way ahead of us on this front. They see the coming wave of Shia domination and they don't like what they see which is why they summoned Dick Cheney for a chit chat last week. They fear an all out Shia vs Sunni war. Unfortunately for us, the Saudis may talk about fighting but they aren't prepared to confront Iran militarily. They will do what they always do. Hunker down, protect their borders, export some mischief and beg the US to prevent them from being decapitated. Iran wins, we lose. Thanks George...
Posted by: nynick at November 30, 2006 09:27 PM (4SNDL)
12
Nice comment, DR...
And thank you for your kind words. It's good to know that there are Canadians who feel this way and don't hate us all. Again, thank you for your well thought and worded comments.
It was appreciated.
Posted by: WB at December 01, 2006 01:13 AM (RU8ql)
13
Did America engage with Joseph Stalin...
We made thousands of atomic weapons and flew them rather close to the Soviet borders on B-36's and B-52's, for decades 7x24x365.
We sent the Nautilus under the polar ice cap as a technology demonstration. We overflew them with U2 and SR-71's with relative impunity.
Yea, we engaged. From a position of strength. Something today's democrats really don't understand at all (as is obvious from your statements)
Posted by: Purple Avenger at December 01, 2006 04:36 AM (p9O/F)
14
When we helped Iran or any country in the past, it was because our Govt at the time weighed the options of which one was better (Yes, better for us and our way of life). When they took control, how they used their power was up to them, a lot of people decried 'Puppet Regimes', but if they lasted, the only lasted a short time before they were left to their own devices. If they choose to use their new power wisely for the betterment of the world in general, they prospered. (Japan, Germany, South Korea etc...). If they chose to become that which the overthrew or worse, It's on them. We had a hand in helping them out of a bad situation to begin with, if they blew it, we can just help the next generation give it a go.
All countries practice forign policy to many extremes. One of the things in our oath to the country when swearing in was to practice 'Freedom and Democracy around the World'. I still believe that, people should be free from fear that their own govt would gas them, have their people rape and torture them, murder them.
Before the Moonbats go off, Diplomacy should always be tried first, but when it doesn't work, we had better be prepared for what comes next not just in words, but actions.
Posted by: Retired Navy at December 01, 2006 07:13 AM (cqZXM)
15
"This might actually mean something, if we hadn't"
If you are a person with an open mind, an open heart and are not one of those who try to figure out a way to besmirch your own country at the slightest provocation....think about this opening clause for a moment...because you are going to hear it over and over and over and over again.
"Well...we MIGHT consider how bad the enemies of (America, Israel, the whole world)...if ONLY...America hadn't/didn't/wasn't....(fill in the blank)"
"Well, I might think that gangraping a busload of Boy Scouts was a bad thing,.... if the leaders of the Boy Scouts hadn't littered by the campfire"
"Well, I might think that shooting down nuns in a church in cold blood was a bad thing...if only the Pope hadn't referenced a Byzantine philosopher"
"Well, I might not trash my own country each and every day of my life...if I was living in one where doing so might get a bullet put in my brain and my family was made to pay for the bullet the state had to expend to silence me"
"sold numerous weapons of death"
Think about this..."sold numerous weapons of death"...so, by this viewpoint ANY country that sells "numerous weapons of death"...or, I suppose...builds, purchases or USES any...would ALSO be unworthy of taking a position against an Iranian leader who advocates genocide of a people based solely on their race, creed or religion.
Solid...very solid argument.
"to countless despotic regimes around the world, over the years."
Over the year...does this include the Ottoman Empire? Holy Roman Empire. Napoleon? Alexander the Great?
Understand, CY...you are completely unable to take a moral position against a genocidal maniac...if "over the years"....your country has been involved in "weapons of death".
Otherwise, ANY moral position on the subject is...well...simply not one worth examining.
"It's hard to get upset, if this is actually true,"
I know...that darn genocide is hard to get upset about. I mean, murdering innocents, blowing up schoolbuses, sending trained murderers out to kill other innocent people...it's just so darn hard to get upset...it's much EASIER to get upset at AMERICA...because, it's so chic to slam/trash/beshit your own country....it feels oh, so...I don't know....trendy....yay!
"when Iran engages in the same behavior that we consider acceptable for ourselves."
Um....just when did America say it had the intention of eradicating the Jews? Or force-converting all infidels to Islam? Or hijack planes, schoolbuses, nuns and priests...and summarily execute the innocent civilians on them.
This is beyond moral equivalency...a weak and blissfully ignorant viewpoint to begin with...it's a copout for those who wish to curry favor and cuddle up to our enemies du jour.
Learn it well, CY...you will see it daily from the Timeshare Americans who pretend to be our countrymen.
Posted by: cfbleachers at December 01, 2006 11:10 AM (V56h2)
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Keith:
When does the staute of limitations run out on condemning America for its relationship with the Shah? Sheesh. The man and his regime are dead. How do we deal with the messianic brutes who replaced him?
As for the lessons in diplomacy, it is a cynics' game best encapsulated by Palmerston's dicta that:"Nations do not have permanent friends; they do have permanent interests." Hence our alliance with Stalin in WWII and our rapprochemont with China in the Cold War.
It is a neverending cause of mirth to me that the idealism of American diplomacy for the last several years, aimed at correcting the failings of the cynical "stability" politics of the Realists, is advocated as being simplistic and naive by those who traditionally vociferously advocate standing with those seeking liberty and condemn America for coddling those who do not. Irony, indeed. But Bush can't both be stupid and correct, can he?
War, at its heart, is an issue of dominance: whose will is greater. What signal is sent in that regard by our "engaging" the brutes of Iran? What does it say to those who oppose this hateful regime in Iran?
I'm afraid it says: you may aid those who kill and maim our soldiers with impunity, kidnap our diplomats, advocate our destruction and we are so weak-kneed we will reward your brazen acts of war. To Iranians it says: bedeck your chains with flowers and call it liberty, for we now aid your oppressors.
Tell me how I am wrong in this analysis.
Posted by: wjo at December 01, 2006 12:29 PM (gI0Ku)
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How do we deal with the messianic brutes who replaced him?
The dreaded Mk 1 block 4 "comfy chairs" have been cracked out of storage and B52's are being generated to deploy them right now as we speak.
Posted by: Purple Avenger at December 01, 2006 04:55 PM (p9O/F)
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Kathleen Carroll, Pretend I'm From Missouri: Show Me Jamil Hussein
In response to the Iraqi Interior Ministry (MOI) confirming today that no man by the name of Jamil Hussein is employed in any capacity by the MOI or the Iraqi Police, the Associated Press has issued it own release.
Read both statements, press conference transcript where the story originated at
Flopping Aces, where Curt has his own thoughts on the matter. I'll wait till you get back.
* * *
Frankly, I'm stunned at the outright arrogance of Kathleen Carroll, Executive Editor of the Associated Press, and statements that she made in her release that—in my opinion—are willful, skillful, and purposeful subterfuge.
Carroll completely glosses over the fact that her news organization originally reported that four mosques had been burned according to their original story, an error for which she does not account for here, not one the Associated Press has ever printed a retraction for.
Carroll stands by the AP's reporting that states that six people were burned alive.
The AP is curiously unable to name five of the six alleged victims, even though they were reportedly killed in their own neighborhood. In this tightly-knit, often-interrelated communal neighborhoods, especially in what the AP itself describes as an "enclave," I find the inability of the AP's reporters to find witnesses who could name those who were reputably killed a most unlikely claim.
Carroll goes on to insist, though not by name, that Captain Jamil Hussein
is too an Iraqi policeman, just not one approved to speak to the media.
That is also a deliberate deception, coming directly on the heels of MOI Brigadier General Abdul Kareem Khalaf Al-Kenani's statement that no Iraqi policemen by that name existed, in
any capacity.
If Kathleen Carroll wants me to believe that the Associated Press knows better than the MOI who MOI employees are, she had better produce a (live) Iraqi Police Captain claiming to be Jamil Hussein to back her story. While she's at it, she can provide evidence that six people were burned alive, starting with their names, their graves, and any proof that these events were something other than an insurgent propaganda. No one else has evidence that these people ever existed or that they were burned alive, other than the two anonymous AP reporters.
The Associated Press is clearly attempting to duck the issue.
I want to see Jamil Hussein.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
03:26 PM
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1
If the AP does produce Capt. Jamil Hussein...what will they win?
Posted by: monkyboy at November 30, 2006 04:28 PM (unUeA)
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Nothing big, just their credibility.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at November 30, 2006 04:31 PM (g5Nba)
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I got a better chance of seeing Elvis in a 7-11 than AP does of producing this guy...
Posted by: Purple Avenger at December 01, 2006 04:38 AM (p9O/F)
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Posted by Purple Avenger at December 1, 2006 04:38 AM
HEY!!! I saw him drinking a slurpee, it was a purple one I think.
Posted by: Retired Navy at December 01, 2006 06:49 AM (BuYeH)
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1 December 2006: 12:45 pm Eastern. The Jamil Hussein watch continues. Still no proof of life provided by AP. I saw one AP article from them today regarding an attack against a Sunni mosque quoting an 'anonymous' officer fearing reprisals. I wonder if that is our guy?
Posted by: BohicaTwentyTwo at December 01, 2006 12:51 PM (oC8nQ)
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cfb, out of respect for the guys at ALF, I'm deleting the copy/paste you did of their post (it violates fair use) and instead, include the link.
cfb said...
Posted at the Alabama Liberation Front...SPECTACULAR piece of writing...a great blog and the following...I only wish I had said this: Outstanding.
this is the post he wanted folks to read.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at December 01, 2006 01:51 PM (g5Nba)
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Sorry, CY...thanks. I gave Bubba full credit in my opening line, not wanting to deny him his due ..but, your way is clearly better.
I believe it's a brilliant article and think everyone should read it.
Posted by: cfbleachers at December 01, 2006 02:37 PM (V56h2)
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A Terminally Flawed Methodology
I've been very fortunate to establish cordial email relationships with what I regard as some of the most "real" reporters of the Iraq war, men who go out and join up with combat units, staying with them, and chronicling their movements. They have been termed "embeds," short for "embedded reporters."
Michael Yon spent nine months with the "Deuce Four" Striker Brigade. Read through his site when you have the time (Get a brief taste
here), and you'll have a much better understanding of the American experience in this war.
Pat Dollard spent seven months, and survived two IED blasts, while embedded with the Marines. He's just finished up a documentary series that promises to be raw, and brutal, and if I don't miss my guess, historically important.
I'm presently reading a review copy of
We Were One by embedded historian Patrick K. O'Donnell, who was with 1st Platoon of Lima Company, 1st Marine Regiment, when they took on the worst of the fighting in Fallujah.
I've recently talked to USAF airmen just back from their fourth and sixth tours, Army soldiers back from their first and second deployments in Mosul and Ramadi, and via Central Command, interviewed two soldiers (MPs) working with the Iraqi police in Baghdad.
Because of all this contact with folks who actually know firsthand what is going on, I know the media is frequently inaccurate. The single word I've commonly heard from those who have been in Iraq as part of the military regarding MSM reporting is "lies."
Find someone on your own who has been to Iraq. As them if the media is reporting the truth. They'll likely tell you the same thing.
Iraq
sucks. All wars suck. But in many respects things are not as bad as the media reports, just as in some cases things are actually worse. Better or worse, the majority of reporting is inaccurate.
The problem with the general manner of Iraq war reporting was summed up quite well by another embed,
Michael Fumento:
Would you trust a Hurricane Katrina report datelined "direct from Detroit"? Or coverage of the World Trade Center attack from Chicago? Why then should we believe a Time Magazine investigation of the Haditha killings that was reported not from Haditha but from Baghdad? Or a Los Angeles Times article on a purported Fallujah-like attack on Ramadi reported by four journalists in Baghdad and one in Washington? Yet we do, essentially because we have no choice. A war in a country the size of California is essentially covered from a single city. Plug the name of Iraqi cities other than Baghdad into Google News and you'll find that time and again the reporters are in Iraq’s capital, nowhere near the scene. Capt. David Gramling, public affairs officer for the unit I'm currently embedded with, puts it nicely: "I think it would be pretty hard to report on Baghdad from out here." Welcome to the not-so-brave new world of Iraq war correspondence.
Vietnam was the first war to give us reporting in virtually real time. Iraq is the first to give us virtual reporting. That doesn’t necessarily make it biased against the war; it does make it biased against the truth.
The overwhelming majority of international journalists "reporting" from Iraq have never ventured out of their hotels in the Green Zone, a small area in Baghdad, and yet try to convince us they are reporting facts from around the entire nation. Based upon what, precisely? They are only reporting what stringers—local Iraqi and other Arab reporters, with sectarian, regional, and in some cases suspected insurgency-related biases—tell them.
These Baghdad reporters have no way of knowing if these stringers are reporting facts or are relaying propaganda, if the witnesses quoted are reliable or coached, or if the photos submitted to them are an accurate visual account of the events discussed in a story.
As Fumento notes elsewhere:
The London Independent's Robert Fisk has written of "hotel journalism," while former Washington Post Bureau Chief Rajiv Chandrasekaran has called it "journalism by remote control." More damningly, Maggie O’Kane of the British newspaper The Guardian said: "We no longer know what is going on, but we are pretending we do." Ultimately, they can’t even cover Baghdad yet they pretend they can cover Ramadi.
In short, we aren't questioning all of AP's stories based upon a single story, we are questioning a broken
methodology that lead to such a story. There exists in the media’s reporting in Iraq no effective editorial checks at the very root level of reporting, to verify that the most basic elements of the story are indeed factual, much less biased.
This is not just about one questionable story, or even one questionable source.
It's about one often-used and
verified questionable source, among many verified questionable sources, including just this
partial list for starters:
Lt. Ali Abbas; police Capt. Mohammed Abdel-Ghani; police Brigadier Sarhat Abdul-Qadir; Mosul police Director Gen. Wathiq al-Hamdani; police Lt. Bilal Ali; Ali al-Obaidi, a medic at Ramadi Hospital; police Maj. Firas Gaiti; police Captain Mohammed Ismail; Brig. Abdul-Karim Khalaf, the Interior Ministry spokesman (a.k.a. Police Brigadier Abd al-Karim Khalaf, Brig. Gen. Abdul-Karim Khalaf, Brig. Abdel-Karim Khalaf); Mohammed Khayon, a Baghdad police lieutenant; police spokesman Mohammed Kheyoun (a.k.a. Police Lieutenant Mohammed Khayoun); Lt. Thaer Mahmoud, head of a police section responsible for releasing daily death tolls; police Lt. Bilal Ali Majid; police Lt. Ali Muhsin; police 1st Lt. Mutaz Salahhidine (a.k.a. Lieutenant Mutaz Salaheddin); Col. Abbas Mohammed Salman; and policeman Haider Satar.
Again, these men are just a
partial list of questionable and potentially false witnesses used to lend an air of credibility to hundreds or thousands of news articles... and these are just from those sources claimed to be within the Iraqi Police and Ministry of Interior.
This is not to mention the dozens or hundreds of other witnesses in thousands of other stories that could have been either influenced in some way, or may be entirely fictitious, and far more difficult to prove false.
The flawed methodology that weakens the essential credibility of the news-gatherig process effects the overwhelming majority of stories printed and broadcast about Iraq each week. This weakness, this inherent and unchecked instability and inability to verify the core facts and actors in the most basic of stories, points out a methodological flaw in the news gathering efforts common to
every major news organization reporting in Iraq.
After what was initially a spirited defense, the Associated Press has gone silent about the supposed existence of Police Capt. Jamil Hussein.
No one else seems to be able to find him.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
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1
It's great that you speak to the men and women of the Armed Forces and they all tell you that The Media lies. Interesting though, that there are no dissenters, because actually there are quite a few. Amazingly, quite a few of those dissenters ran for public office as Democrats just recently. So, you give one half of the story and decide that that's the only side that exists.
You ignore Vets for Truth, you ignore all of those who have said the opposite, you slander the reporters who are in Iraq by saying they all stay in their hotels in the Green Zone (a Michelle Malkin talking point - boy, there's a source of credibility), you ignore all the reporters who are going out and getting the story. But, of course, you know better because some people reinforced what you want to believe.
Lets be specific: do you believe that Micheal Ware is lying when he states that the violence on the ground is extreme? Or Richard Engel? Just to name two.
Do you believe Tammy Duckworth was lying when she said that the situation is untenable? Or Paul Hackett? Are all these people lying because, according to you, your sources say they are and the only accurate sources are your sources.
But returning to the AP. You post a list of verified questionable sources. Again, you use as your source for this information Michelle Malkin. Does this information come from a detached third-party? No; it comes from the private public relations firm hired by the US military to make Iraq look better. Not only that, but Malkin does not point to a single story that these verified questionable sources contributed to but declares that there have been thousands.
At the very top of the article you site, it points out that this is an opinion piece. Maybe you should have read that first before using it as your proof. Shabby reporting, obviously, is not relegated just to the so-called "Liberal Media."
Posted by: George Orwell at November 30, 2006 12:07 PM (AyaAr)
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Talk about being blinded by what you want to see, George.
You accuse me of providing "one half the story," oddly based upon the argument that Democratic veterans ran for Congress, not that the information provided by the media was, in fact accurate.
Your argument, which seems to be based on views of whether or not we are winning the war, is flatly irrelevant; a completely separate issue.
We're talking here about media accuracy, as I clearly stated:
Iraq sucks. All wars suck. But in many respects things are not as bad as the media reports, just as in some cases things are actually worse. Better or worse, the majority of reporting is inaccurate.
I wasn't questioning better or worse, but accurate reporting and a frankly pathetic news-gathering methodology.
Your supporting "evidence" is frankly irrelevant to the argument at hand... though it is highly amusing.
You cite "Vets for Truth," a group that doesn't appear in a quick Google search, unless you are talking about the Swift Boat Veterans for Truth (somehow, I doubt you subscribe to their views), or a group of nutjobs call "Veterans for 911 Truth" (which sounds right up yout alley).
Perhaps you meant someone else?
My comments do not in any way conflict with the comments you attribute (without sourcing) to Ware, Engel, or others.
You forget to mention that the opinions expressed by Duckworth, Hackett, etc are—if you have any intention of being honest—only opinions. At that, these opinions are disagreed with by many of their contemporaries. They are hardly—by any measure—facts.
Also, if your reading comprehension were a bit better, you might understand that while that list of questionable sources was indeed reprinted in a Malkin op-ed, she did not create it.
That list was created by the Iraqi IP/MOI, and released via U.S. Central Command. Are you in a position to tell the Iraqi Interior Ministry that you know more about who their employees and officers are than they do?
The issue with you, George, isn't my post, but your own most willful (or perhaps merely ignorant) misreading of things that simply weren't said.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at November 30, 2006 12:49 PM (g5Nba)
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George, is not an election determined by the majority of the voters; and from the outcome an agenda is established?
Well, the MAJORITY of the returning Soldiers, Sailors, Airmen and Marines say the truth of Iraq is not getting out. Are there those who dispute the majority - yes; but it does not change what the majority say. Whether you or I like it, agree with it, or dispute it; the fact remains that the majority of our returning service people belive the MSM is not accurately reporting on Iraq.
For your reference; I work on an active U.S. Army installation where I am in daily contact with Soldiers who have been to Iraq and Afghanistan several times.
Posted by: Old Soldier at November 30, 2006 12:53 PM (X2tAw)
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We can argue the accuracy of the IP/MOI and CentCom for days on end. Be that as it may, they have their own agendas.
Again, as I have stated a number of times, what is so hard about understanding that you should get your news from more than one source? And how, since you seem to believe reportage is so bad, would you fix the situation?
Your statement that reportage is methodologically flawed makes no sense. How does one collect news in a war zone that's not methodologically flawed? If, for example, you go out every day and speak to Iraqis, you are only providing one sid of the story. If you speak only to the soldiers, again, you are only giving one side of the story. You try to do both, you end up with someone screaming you're only giving one side of the story. That appears to me to be what you are doing on this site. Let's beat up on the AP because they either fabricated a story or they reported a false story. Well, geez, folks, they're in a friggin war zone!
You also don't explain what you mean by accurate. Is it accurate if it agrees with your position? Is it accurate if it agrees with the Administration's position? Your terminally flawed methodology critique isn't one. It's just your opinion that you don't like the way the news is reported.
Reportage is just that; the reporter reports. Sometimes he gets the story wrong, sometimes right. He goes to a place, or someone comes to him, and they tell him a story. He verifies what he can, and then he reports it. Your saying you don't like the reporting doesn't make the reporting any more or less valid. Your complaint is just a way to blame the Media when it reports what you don't want to hear.
The other problem I see is that you're not interested in being as sceptical of what is told to you by the Government (Iraqi or US) or of those that share your same political leanings. Yet when it comes to government (ours, at least), we chose them; we should expect a greater level of integrity from them than from someone whose paid to write a story.
OldSoldier,
Sorry, you're not a reliable source, and after all, that's what this whole discussion is about. I don't know who you are. I'll take your word for it that the soldiers you have spoken to all agree that the Media do not report the war accurately. But that tells me nothing. Do they tink it's worse; do they think things are better? What do they consider inaccurate? This is much the same problem I have with CY's posts. Complain about accuracy in Media but don't tell us what you mean by that.
Posted by: George Orwell at November 30, 2006 01:23 PM (AyaAr)
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You also don't explain what you mean by accurate. Is it accurate if it agrees with your position? Is it accurate if it agrees with the Administration's position?
Posted by George Orwell at November 30, 2006 01:23 PM
This goes to reporting the facts and letting us make up our own minds without spin. The "Police Captian" isn't on the payroll and hasn't been produced. The AP could have verified through the MOI he worked for the police before running the story. That is a basic check that should be done before getting egg on your face. Verify your sources.
Posted by: Retired Navy at November 30, 2006 02:55 PM (0EcTE)
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George, you're pretty nonchalant when it comes to accurate reporting in the media. Me, I like to think that they try their best, but when they do make a mistake, they retract their story. Yesterday, AP defended their story with bluster, calling the allegations ludicrous. Today's attempt is a blatent misdirect. If they would just own up to their mistake, I think they might get a little respect back, but at the moment, it looks like their pride will not allow it.
Posted by: BohicaTwentyTwo at November 30, 2006 02:56 PM (oC8nQ)
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BohicaTwentyTwo, eh?
Obviously an Army Man!!!!!
Posted by: Retired Spy at November 30, 2006 03:08 PM (Xw2ki)
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I, too, would like reporting to be accurate, meaning that as much as can be verified is verified. I think right now, that's what the AP is trying to do. But many have already drawn their conclusions as to whether or not they were or were not accurate (look at CY's phrasing for instance in the original post.)
And, I'm sure the AP doesn't want egg on its face. The question again is why will you give certain institutions the benefit of the doubt no matter what, but when the press does something, certain of us are all over them like white on rice?
Posted by: George Orwell at November 30, 2006 03:09 PM (AyaAr)
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Again, as I have stated a number of times, what is so hard about understanding that you should get your news from more than one source?
That is precisely the issue at hand, George. No other source will back the AP story. Not one.
And how, since you seem to believe reportage is so bad, would you fix the situation?
Pretty simple, George.
No more anonymous stringer-generated reporting. Have reporters writing stories about Iraq actually go to the locations and events they write about. Basic, freshman level journalism, George. Basic fact collection. Report what they can verify, with a minumum of editorializing, guessing or rumor-mongering.
I'm looking at basic flaws in the information gathering process, basing it on experience on "both sides of the ball," formal university training, and rendering thoughts consistent with those that recently had a highly respected journalism professor wonder if, "the craft I love is being murdered, committing suicide, or both." That same professor sure seems to think I know how good reporting works, George.
It may be my opinion that the reporting process is flawed, but it is an educated one, and one that is echoed by Perlmutter and others who train journalists.
I'm not blaming the media for publishing "information I don't want to here" as you ignorantly opine. I'm telling them to do their jobs professionally, something too many seem to have forgotten.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at November 30, 2006 03:15 PM (g5Nba)
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You have a very specific bias going in. And that bias appears to me at least to be that you just don't like the AP because they don't write feel good stories about Iraq. Btw, Fumento, whom I don't particularly care for, states in that piece you use as reference that the AP actually sends reporters out into the field. It's in the last paragraph.
And as I pointed out in the first comment here, there are mainstream reporters going out into the streets to do reporting. And as I have also pointed out, there are veterans who say that the media basically gets it right. So what's you're point? That there are reporters hanging around in the Green Zone phoning it in? Duh!
But please quit acting like this is some form of aberrant behavior. There's an old adage; "80% of the work is done by 20% of the people." The reason it's an old adagee is because it's true. Where do you get the idea that the press corp is somehow any different?
Posted by: George Orwell at November 30, 2006 03:46 PM (AyaAr)
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NYNick,
Trying to change the subject again I see. Like it or not, the tubes were on the banned list. Too bad.
George,
Sorry - but you are a troll. But since you make the claim that the news story published by AP was accurate, let's see the other sources you used to verify that. Just post one credible link. Put up or shut up time.
Posted by: Specter at November 30, 2006 07:45 PM (ybfXM)
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The subject is truth and accuracy is it not? This administration cannot reasonably argue they've been truthful about Iraq. I will withhold judgement on the real or imagined Capt. Hussein until I hear more from the AP about him but they are not backing down from their story which should tell you something. The Iraqi MOI isn't the first place I would turn to for accuracy either.
Also, since you mentioned it, whether or not those tubes were on some sort of banned list isn't the issue because that is not what Condi said. She said those tubes could only be used for nuclear weapons production. Here is what WP reported:
"...all that United Nations weapons inspectors and US Energy Department experts could conclude was that the tubes were for conventional rockets. "Gas centrifuge experts consulted by the US government said repeatedly for more than a year that the aluminum tubes were not suitable or intended for uranium enrichment."
Is truth and accuracy important to you or is it not? You can't hold the AP to a standard you're not willing to apply to the administration. Their untruthfulness comes with a much higher cost than the loss of credibility.
Posted by: nynick at November 30, 2006 08:48 PM (4SNDL)
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Yea...yea...yea...we've all heard it "Bush Lied". And truth be told, he must have been smarter than all the democrats, because they believed him. What a bunch of pansies and dimwits, right?
Posted by: Specter at November 30, 2006 09:52 PM (ybfXM)
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And NY - having been involved in the defense industry - those tubes were way to accurately made for simple rocket tubes. Are you an engineer by chance?
Posted by: Specter at November 30, 2006 09:54 PM (ybfXM)
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BTW Nick,
You should read pages 87 thru 119 of the Report on the U.S. Intelligence Community's Prewar Intelligence Assessments on Iraq (Select Committee on Intelligence: United States Senate). When you read through this you will find that there was a huge argument going on behind the scenes in the IC.
Most agencies - especially the CIA who authored the NIE that the decisions were made on - agreed that the tubes could be used for centrifuges based on the Zippe Gas Centrifuge design. In fact, pre-Gulf War, the Germans were helping Iraq to develop such a centrifuge.
DOE and INR (State Department) both felt that the uses for the tubes were probably other than a nuclear program - most likely for the 81 mm Nasser rocket. DOE and IAEA stated though that a number of factors might lead the IC to believe that the tubes were for nuclear use. Things such as the secrecy of the purchases (front companies, through 3rd party-countries, etc.), the abnormally high price Iraq was willing to pay for each tube, the extremely high tolerances, the anodizing (although there was a lot of argument about that), the fact that the tubes were a high-priority for Hussein himself, and other factors. Only INR said that the tubes were definitely not for nuclear production.
Given the state of the IC at the time (which remember had been gutted by budget cuts), and the predisposition to believe that Iraq was in the process of reconstituting it's nuclear program (you know this - see Clinton and all the other pols that made speeches through the mid to late 80's and right into Bush II), the CIA version of the likelihood won out and was what was included in the NIE.
So again we come to the information that was presented to Bush II and his staff. They saw centrifuge parts. That is what they were told. Do you think that the President goes out and fact checks what his intelligence experts (and we must use that term loosely here) tell him? Or as an executive, does he accept what he is told and then make decisions based on that?
All the hindsight in the world doesn't change the fact of what information was available to begin with. It wasn't a lie, it is what they were told by their experts.
Have you ever read the document? Or the NIE? If not, you should. Then we can have a more informed discussion.
Posted by: Specter at November 30, 2006 10:33 PM (ybfXM)
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”Sorry, you're not a reliable source, and after all, that's what this whole discussion is about. I don't know who you are.”
So, did you follow my link to do any ‘fact checking’ that might bear on who I am? …or was it just easier to write a disclaimer?
”I'll take your word for it that the soldiers you have spoken to all agree that the Media do not report the war accurately. But that tells me nothing. Do they tink it's worse; do they think things are better? What do they consider inaccurate?”
I believe I wrote, ”the majority of returning Soldiers, Sailors, Airmen and marines say the truth of Iraq is not getting out,” which bears upon the accuracy of MSM reporting topic. Whether they think Iraq is better or worse than reported is not relative to this discussion. (However a bit of deductive logic should give you some answers.)
”Let's beat up on the AP because they either fabricated a story or they reported a false story. Well, geez, folks, they're in a friggin war zone!”
Were these ‘reporters’ sent to a “friggin war zone” with absolutely no choice? If they accept a paycheck they owe their employer accurate reporting, not contrived or third-hand hearsay ‘reportage.’
Posted by: Old Soldier at December 01, 2006 07:15 AM (X2tAw)
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”Let's beat up on the AP because they either fabricated a story or they reported a false story. Well, geez, folks, they're in a friggin war zone!”
I'd also like to add, does being in a war zone give liscense to being incorrect in their reporting? I would think it would be the other way around, ensuring the facts are correct.
Posted by: Retired Navy at December 01, 2006 09:19 AM (0EcTE)
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The next person that attempts to drag the acts of either poltical party in America into this post about media reporting practices will be banned.
Shocking as it may be to the way some think, "blame Bush!" is not a valid answer nor a valid excuse for every action on this planet.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at December 01, 2006 09:42 AM (g5Nba)
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George just couldn't let go of his BDS. I wonder how people that doggedly obsessed with seeing every act in the world through the same tiny viewpoint can actually go through life thinking that they are capable of seeing a larger picture. It's not just a variation on the blind man trying to describe an elephant; it's a blind man who touched one part of an elephant and then tries to describe how every other animal or plant on this earth must be in some way related to an elephant.
It's mindblowingly myopic, if you really let yourself think about just how distorting that kind of thought process can be.
Oh, well. Bye, George.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at December 01, 2006 11:09 AM (g5Nba)
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Good riddance. I heard a line recently and I have been waiting for the right time to use it. "If all you have is a hammer, eventually everything starts looking like a nail" I think it suits the BDS addled George Orwell accurately. He can't seem to see any issue without finding a way to tie it back to "the administration." Its like a sick game of Six Degrees of Kevin Bacon.
Posted by: BohicaTwentyTwo at December 01, 2006 01:58 PM (oC8nQ)
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First of all, before we go any further, I think we all need to remember that journalists — like our servicemen and women — are putting their lives on the line to give us the news. I know you think they're a group of namby-pamby college grads that don't go to the places they report on, but remember that this war has been the most deadly war for journalists in American history. In fact, according to the Committee to Protect Journalists, 78 reporters have been killed in Iraq since the start of the war. I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that the majority of these journalists were not killed in their Green Zone hotels.
Unlike the majority of the bloggers from the left and the right who write about the Iraq War from the comfort of their living rooms, reporters in Iraq have put themselves in the middle of the violence and face very real, life-threatening dangers every day. Of course, critique what they do because we all want fair, non-biased journalism, but do so with respect. In particular, don't make blanket statements saying that all the stories coming out of Iraq are "lies." Sure, mistakes have been made by journalists in Iraq, but condemning the whole lot for the mistakes of a few is as offensive as condemning the entire U.S. military when one rouge solider kills innocent civilians.
On another note, I have a connection with a Washington Post writer who spent six weeks in Iraq reporting on the war. When he came back from reporting in Iraq, he said that the situation there had been worse than even the darkest news reports he had read. Oh yeah, he also did a lot of his own reporting.
Posted by: David at December 02, 2006 12:29 AM (rhcj5)
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Back to Iraq
Bill Roggio is heading back to Iraq as an embed, an act I've come to respect as day-in, day-out the most dangerous assignment a journalist can undertake in Iraq.
He's also getting new gear, and incorporated as his own media company.
Check it out.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
09:19 AM
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ISG Weighs In
The recommendations of the Iraqi Study Group have finally gone public... through a leak, of course:
Following an intense assessment of U.S. policies in the war in Iraq, the Iraq Study Group will recommend that a "gradual but meaningful" reduction of U.S. troops begin "relatively early in the New Year," a source familiar with the group's deliberations told CNN.
The language in the report -- which was compiled at the urging of Congress -- is being fine-tuned before it is presented to President Bush next week, but according to the source the work on the findings is basically done.
In the bipartisan panel's view, Bush needs to insist on implementing strict timetables for Iraqi improvements and communicate to Iraqi Prime Minister Nuri al-Maliki that there will be substantial troop reductions beginning in January.
While not providing a specific timetable for withdrawal -- which Bush opposes -- the group suggests major combat units be deployed "over time" to what the source described as "out of the bull's eye."
Cut and crawl.
Nuance, kids. Impose impotence as foreign policy.
It's worked so well so far.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
07:12 AM
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Who cares what the ISG says? Bush has already as much as flatly stated that unless he likes the sound of it, he'll gleefully ignore their recommendations. Unless Congress (or some other conflict) forces a change, our troops will be in Iraq, at the current levels, untel the next presidency. Period. Anyone who thinks otherwise, or believes the ISG has any influence on Bush whatsoever, has been asleep the last 6 years.
Posted by: legion at November 30, 2006 01:42 PM (3eWKF)
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November 29, 2006
Oh Captain, My Captain
The resolution of this evolving story is going to be very interesting, and I think we can all agree that the one bit of evidence that matters is the material proof of the existence of one Iraqi Police Captain.
The Associated Press and U.S. Central Command are gambling, to different extents, their reputations on the existence of IP (Iraqi Police) Captain Jamil Hussein, with the Associated Press being much more at risk.
The AP has relied upon Captain Hussein as a primary source of information on many stories
for months, and the news organization has effectively doubled-down by insisting he exists, and that their reporters have visited him in his office.
Central Command has reported that according to Iraqi Police and Ministry of Interior records, they do not employ a Jamil Hussein as any sort of police officer (much less a captain), nor as a MoI employee in any capacity.
If CentCom is wrong, their reputation will be tarnished, but only as much as relying on bad Iraqi record-keeping can be blamed.
If the Associated Press is wrong, then all the stories (including
this one) that relied upon this expert witness—and potentially the dozens or hundreds of stories that relied upon
16 other IP/MOI "witnesses" that may not be legitimate—could go up in smoke.
The task for the Associated Press here is clear, immediate, and pressing: they must show, and prove beyond a reasonable doubt that their Captain Jamil Hussein is a living, breathing,
legitimate member of the Iraqi Police.
I'd suggest a simple test: have the AP reporters that vouch for Captain Hussein drive with him to the Iraqi Ministry of the Interior, where they can watch officials verify his paperwork and employment status. Central Command, of course, can have representatives on hand to witness the verification of Captain Hussein's credentials.
Captain Jamil Hussein must materialize, and quickly, or the credibility of Associated Press reporting in Iraq will suffer a tremendous blow.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
04:30 PM
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1
Legitamacy is actually spelled legitimacy, but that's what I'd expect from someone with a name spelled monkyboy.
Posted by: pajama momma at November 29, 2006 04:54 PM (+Aq+d)
Posted by: Purple Avenger at November 29, 2006 06:12 PM (p9O/F)
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"The task for the Associated Press here is clear, immediate, and pressing: they must show, and prove beyond a reasonable doubt that their Captain Jamil Hussein is a living, breathing, legitimate member of the Iraqi Police."
Or they just need the body of a male about the right age and claim he was assassinated by the military in revenge for his Speaking Truth to Power.
Posted by: guy at November 29, 2006 06:29 PM (C/3DC)
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So does this mean that there is no fighting and death and civil war and tortured bodies found in the streets of Iraq? Because if there isn't, I want my $300 billion back.
Posted by: tbogg at November 29, 2006 06:40 PM (n+/Jk)
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You never had $300 billion.
Posted by: Lee at November 29, 2006 07:15 PM (DCQ6M)
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If you believe anything that comes from the ASSociated (with terrorists) Press without checking the facts somewhere else you are very foolish. Between Iraq and Lebanon they have proven themselves wrong more than right. That's not good for an organization that is supposed to supply the streight truthful news to thousand of news organizations.
Posted by: Scrapiron at November 29, 2006 07:27 PM (0Co69)
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CY - I'm inclined to agree with you. If these horrific murders happened, show us the proof.
One thing, if the murders are a hoax is there some implied conclusion I'm missing? What does it matter if some muslims slaughtered some other muslims in this one case? Its not like we're not seeing a lot of that these days. Or is the point the non-reliability of a wire service (such a quaint term)?
Serious question and NOT trollbait.
Posted by: sami at November 29, 2006 08:08 PM (je/vI)
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sami, the point is the flawed (and suspected non-existent) system of checks and balances used to create news stories in contested zones of the Middle East.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at November 29, 2006 10:19 PM (HcgFD)
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CY: Excellent point. As I said here (http://junkyardblog.net/archives/week_2006_11_26.html#006256 ) I'm certain this "Captain Jamil Hussein" will be extremely eager to clear up his employment status with the MOI, and the least the AP could do for someone who's been so helpful to them for so long is to make sure he gets his salary and pension straightened out!
Posted by: See-Dubya at November 29, 2006 10:29 PM (W4/LV)
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Serious question and NOT trollbait.
Posted by sami at November 29, 2006 08:08 PM
It's kind of two fold. 1. It puts into question all the stories coming from Iraqi embedded journalests, (not all are wrong mind you, but should be looked at).
2. It could be used as propaganda against our forces over there. If proven un-true and spread out to the general Iraqi public, it could go a long way to helping win back some of the "hearts and minds".
When we have our own press fighting this, makes you question their values.
Posted by: Retired Navy at November 30, 2006 06:53 AM (8kQAc)
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So far, I would say that AP has FAILED to provide the burden of proof that Capt. Hussein is an actual Iraqi policeman. Hell, when Al-Reuters sprang to the defense of Green Helmet Guy, they were able to get a closeup photo and an interview with the guy, who turned out to be a civil defense worker for Lebanon. Of, course all that proved was that he was a civil defense worker who pimped out dead babies for Hezbollah, but at least I know he is a real human being. Whether he has a soul or not is still in question.
Posted by: BohicaTwentyTwo at November 30, 2006 08:26 AM (oC8nQ)
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CY & RetiredNavy -
I appreciate the response.
Any influential agency, whether the press or the govt or schools, should have checks and balances to prevent exactly those problems inherent in your answers. In these examples - With our govt, its a 3-legged stool; With schools, it is (should be) parents; With the press it is us.
A consumer of information has the responsibility of skepticism. Trust but verify - diverse sources being the method I know. In the case of the burning men, NPR and other sources reported that there was no verification that the murders took place, so...
I really appreciated your post, CY, because I really hadn't put it in that light. I thought pretty much the same you did when I heard about this one witness who claims to be a cop - odd. You would think if a guy was doing a richard pryor that we might hear of from multiple credible sources. Your underlying them of the application of checks and balances to the press caused me to examine my own perception of the role of reporters in a war zone (and elsewhere).
RetiredNavy - the use of information published by a free press as propaganda is the risk arising from the 1st amendment. I don't think it would be such a problem if we hadn't screwed up so bad. When we invaded Iraq the embedded press was damn near a recrutment center for the US military. Maybe the pendulum has swung back too far and maybe it hasn't but it still swings both ways.
Regards
t.
Posted by: sami at November 30, 2006 09:08 AM (3qVpU)
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A remarkable example of twisting yourself into a pretzel. AP may be wrong on a story; hence AP is always suspect. By that logic, the Administration is always suspect (but that doesn't seem to be the case here).
If AP is wrong about this one story as you claim, how does that invalidate all their other reporting? Or if the standard is, they were wrong once, they must always be wrong or suspect, will you then apply that same logic to the Administration which has been wrong more than once?
I don't expect a civilized answer. In fact, seeing as how you don't like anyone pointing out simple logical inconsistencies, I expect you'll probably delete this comment and ban me.
Posted by: George Orwell at November 30, 2006 09:43 AM (AyaAr)
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UPDATE:
LGF has a letter from CentCom posted. Here it is:
From: MNC-I PAO Victory Main JOC
[mailto:MNF-IPAOVictoryMainJOC@iraq.centcom.mil]
Sent: Wednesday, November 29, 2006 9:14 AM
To: [deleted]
Cc: MNC-I PAO Victory Main JOC
Subject: RE:
RE: Could you confirm that the letter below was sent by CENTCOM
Classification: UNCLASSIFIED
Sir:
I have just learned from Mr. Costlow, mentioned below, that Brig. Gen. Abdul-Karim Khalaf, the official Ministry of Interior spokesmen, will begin his regularly scheduled press conference at noon tomorrow with a statement that Capt. Jamil Hussein, is not a Baghdad police officer or an MOI employee.
Yesterday, coincidently, the Iraqi Ministry of Interior issued a press release warning of spreading propaganda aimed at broadcasters. The text of this statement follows:
A Statement from the Ministry of Interior
After media became free in Iraq and expressed the will of all without the government interfering, unfortunately, some satellite TV channels began misleading public opinion and disclosing chaos for a particular political agenda, by broadcasting propaganda that harms people and tries to shake the trust in security forces.
Such satellite channels are trying to affect Iraqi unity and claim that information was stated by a security source without mentioning the source. Information sources should be well-known and reliable, and to avoid repeating such unfair actions, MOI warns the media and insists on defending the people’s security and safety. MOI will take all immediate preventive procedures against media that broadcast propaganda, because such media intend to repress the will of Iraqis in fighting terror and crime.
We would like to mention that such procedures we do not consider as chaining true free media, but it is a legal defense for Iraqi security and the safety of our people.
If you have any additional questions, please let us know.
Vr,
LT Dean
Michael B. Dean
Lieutenant, U.S. Navy
MNC-I Joint Operations Center
Public Affairs Officer
michael.dean@iraq.centcom.mil
MNCI-PAO-VictoryMainJOC@iraq.centcom.mil
Multinational Corps - Iraq
Public Affairs Office
Should be an interesting Press Conference.
Posted by: Specter at November 30, 2006 09:49 AM (ybfXM)
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George,
The point is that with Reuters and the proven photoshopping of their photos, and now the AP with the their sources, where are the checks and balances? They have used this particular "source" as proof in quite a few articles. If it turns out that he is not associated with LEA in Iraq, where does that leave AP? If they are not serious enough about their coverage to check simple facts like these, then why should we trust anything they print?
Posted by: Specter at November 30, 2006 09:52 AM (ybfXM)
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George, if you remember, when Reuters found out that at least one picture by Adnan Hajj was fake, they retracted ALL of his pictures. If it turns out that Capt. Hussein is NOT a police officer, then AP should do the right thing and retract ALL stories where he was quoted as a single source. Oh, and your Bush Derangement Syndrome tie-in holds no merit.
Posted by: BohicaTwentyTwo at November 30, 2006 10:00 AM (oC8nQ)
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Posted by George Orwell at November 30, 2006 09:43 AM
A lot of it comes down to credibility. I read more than one news source, compare what I read, and make my own decisions.
If a news source gets one article wrong, admits and corrects it, to me, they get a + in credibility. If they deny, deny, deny and say their reporters are above reproach with "annonomous" informers, it's a - in credibility.
The more a source gets -'s, the more suspect they are.
I didn't say all articles were bad or wrong, but when the credibility starts going south and they don't back up their stories, that tells me it's suspect.
Mistakes are one thing, denial and adament refusals to correct them are another.
Posted by: Retired Navy at November 30, 2006 10:23 AM (elhVA)
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Specter,
Anyone with half-a-brain needs to take anything put out by any major institution with a grain of salt. That goes without saying. If ten stories are attributed to Capt Hussein, and he turns out to be a fraud, that still doesn't discredit all the other stories run by the AP which do not use him as a source. Again, get your news from more than one source. Or is the position here that the Drudge Report is the only viable news service (see story of Bush photoshopped into Burkah).
BTT,
Your saying my analogy doesn't hold water does not make it so. If you hold AP suspect for their reporting because they may or may not have reported a fabricated story, then you must logically hold the Administration suspect for their fabricated stories, i.e. aluminium tubes for Nuclear reactors, Yellow Cake from Niger, the War in Iraq would be over in 6 months, take your pick. There are numerous examples of the Administration fabricating stories. More, I dare say, than the AP.
As for my Bush Derangement Syndrome: Pot meet Kettle.
Posted by: George Orwell at November 30, 2006 10:29 AM (AyaAr)
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RetiredNavy said:
"A lot of it comes down to credibility. I read more than one news source, compare what I read, and make my own decisions."
Yes. As I said in my earlier post - we have the responsibility to be skeptical of anybody or any agency providing information whether it be the press, the government or your aunt mabel. Diversity of source is key.
Posted by: sam at November 30, 2006 10:40 AM (3qVpU)
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it be the press, the government or your aunt mabel. Diversity of source is key.
Posted by sam at November 30, 2006 10:40 AM
True, Everyone has an agenda. Everyone has an opinion as well.
I like these post/coments so I can read good discussions. I jump in now and again but know my opinion is only as valuable as the next person's so largely remain quiet.
Posted by: Retired Navy at November 30, 2006 10:55 AM (0EcTE)
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George, your "civilized answer" awaits.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at November 30, 2006 10:58 AM (g5Nba)
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What is amazing...utterly stunning about the left's race to defend the indefensible...is that it almost always has the fellow traveler of a back-tie with trashing America.
Who are these people? What makes them tick? And also, somewhat staggering...is that they use PHONY AND FALSE AND DISTORTED AND FAKE "news" stories...to back up their positions for defending...phony, false, fake and distorted news stories.
Is there anyone breathing, with at least one firing syapse...that doesn't believe that Joe Wilson has been completely and utterly discredited? This isn't even worthwhile of a good, solid, meaty debate.
How can anyone sit there with a straight face and suggest that the wire services, and ALL the leftist news agencies haven't shown a distinct PATTERN of intentionally (or with callous and reckless disregard for the truth), sending out distorted, phony, fake, misleading, erroneous and slanted information on America and Israel?
It's funny, George Orwell was a Socialist, but not an echo chamber. He wrote passionately about the abuses of Socialism, because he wanted it to be pure and free from the disease of the echo chamber, where "because we are leftists, all that we do is right and all that disagree are wrong".
The modern day leftist adopts only his name, not his principles.
The leftist Ministry of Media is a den of snakes. They hire news distorters and filter out truth through their prism of World Populism and feed it to the chirping little baby birds waiting for their pre-digested, regurgitated echo chamber pablum. And the little baby birds are trained to chirp louder and the cacophony of leftist lies reverberates in the dense, dense forest of their lives.
Posted by: cfbleachers at November 30, 2006 11:03 AM (5RM9g)
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George, let me fix up your analogy for you. The issue is single-source intelligence here. AP is using a single alleged Iraqi Policeman for their stories. If it turns out he is NOT a policeman, then every story based on that single source must be questioned. But no one here is suggesting that every story from the AP is wrong. Now, let's jump back to your beef with Bush. SOME of the intelligence on the runup to the war WAS based on a single source. Some of those single sources, like good old Curveball were discredited. This means that all of the intel based on HIS stories should be questioned. But that certainly does NOT mean that EVERYTHING about Iraq was a lie. Curveball might have been wrong about weapons labs, but he didn't talk about the terrorists training at Salman Pak, or about nuclear scientists with banned materiels buried in their gardens. All of that is true.
Posted by: BohicaTwentyTwo at November 30, 2006 11:26 AM (oC8nQ)
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cfbleachers;
You are insane. Nuff said.
BTT;
Again, there actually was more than one source, the other sources wishing to remain anonymous, if you read the piece and not just the spin. The only source not anonymous is this Capt. Hussein. Again, I'm not arguing he's real or fake (you've already made up your mind about that), I am arguing that one fake source doesn't discredit all AP reporting. Or, if it does, then the same applies to all institutions which have used the same standard (that includes the Administration).
Posted by: George Orwell at November 30, 2006 11:47 AM (AyaAr)
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I am arguing that one fake source doesn't discredit all AP reporting. Or, if it does, then the same applies to all institutions which have used the same standard (that includes the Administration).
Posted by George Orwell at November 30, 2006 11:47 AM
I'll type this slow.
We're not saying that one bad source doesn't discredit other stories, them not recanting or producing proof of the stories makes them suspected fabrications, if they fabcricate some without shame, the rest of their stories should be taken with a grain of salt, doesnt mean they are fabricated, but should be scrutinized.
No one said they are all lies except you.
Posted by: Retired Navy at November 30, 2006 12:23 PM (elhVA)
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George,
You are such a card! LOL. Again - NOBODY here said all of the stories posted by AP are suspect. You said it yourself - take it with a grain of salt.
I do not just rely on Drudge, nor any single news source. You don't know me so you'll have to take my word on that. If you have read my posts you will find that I back up my positions with links to quite a number of different news sources - sometimes even AP (but rarely).
The problem with your post here, and at the other that CY directed you to, is that most major news organizations do stay in the Green Zone. What they do is hire local stringers to go out and get the news and bring it back. Some are good. Others aren't. I like to have at least one other credible source verify.
As far as anonymous sources go, well that's just it isn't it? They are anonymous. We do not know if they are credible, do we? We don't even know if they are real or imaginary.
The way out for AP on this one is simple. Prove that the good Captain is a real police officer. Not hard if he is. But there was too much reporting on this single story by other supposedly reputable news sources that contradicted AP's account. So, for them, it's put up or shut up time.
Posted by: Specter at November 30, 2006 12:31 PM (ybfXM)
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Here's the thing RetiredNavy; You say no one said they are all lies, except you. But that's not what I said. I said, anyone with half-a-brain takes what is fed to him by major institutions with a grain of salt. This gose just as firmly for the Administration, schools, you name it. That also goes for admittedly biased bloggers who make statements about how the AP is inventing stories.
It also goes for this site. Almost everyone here is quick to condemn the AP as having printed a fabricated story, yet there appears to be no condemnation of all the fabricated stories that have been fed to us by, among others, the Administration.
It's quite simple: you want it both ways. You want the Media to report the news as you would like it to be, and you want to be able to blame them for either incompetence, fabrication, or bias when it isn't. It has nothing to do with the AP story being right or wrong, fake or real. It has everything to do controlling the debate so that only your talking points are given any credence. You want to hold the press to a standard you don't even hold your government to. Can we say double-standard?
Posted by: George Orwell at November 30, 2006 12:40 PM (AyaAr)
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I said, anyone with half-a-brain takes what is fed to him by major institutions with a grain of salt.
I agree with this.
It's quite simple: you want it both ways. You want the Media to report the news as you would like it to be....
I don't want it both ways, I just want them to report the facts without spin and let me make up my own mind.
fabricated stories that have been fed to us by, among others, the Administration.
Depends on the story if I agreed with it or not, I don't take them at face value either, but will believe them over a factless news source.
It has nothing to do with the AP story being right or wrong, fake or real.
To me, it does, I like debate, actually enjoy it but I can't stand faked news pawned off as real because it does skew a HUGE percentage of people's conceptions of reality.
Look at the facts, form an opinion, and debate that. I have no problems with that. I don't have any problem with your opinion varying from mine (defended it for 20 years and would do so again gladly, that doesn't make mine right though).
You want to hold the press to a standard you don't even hold your government to. Can we say double-standard?
I hold them to the same standard, all those with some kind of power should be held to that standard, I never said different.
Posted by: Retired Navy at November 30, 2006 12:57 PM (elhVA)
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Well George,
It's getting to the point, since you are so intractable in your statements, that we might just have to pull out the Troll-alert. C'mon - you said:
That also goes for admittedly biased bloggers who make statements about how the AP is inventing stories.
Want me to quote the CNN and Reuters stories on the same incident that made no mention of 6 people burned? And CentCom denies it also. So does the Iraqi government, and the Iraqi LEA. The AP also claimed that 4 mosques had been burned down. Not so. So, is your point here that the AP didn't make this up? Is it that they didn't rely on a source that claimed to be LEA, but probably wasn't? If those aren't your points, then you have to at least admit the story from the AP is quite suspicious, at the very least. If those are your points, well....too bad - you'll take one source (AP) over every other source that reported on the incident. So much for verifying....
Posted by: Specter at November 30, 2006 01:43 PM (ybfXM)
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Specter and RTT
It's of no use. There is a pattern of leftist news organizations distorting and intentionally misleading...if you point it out and say that it's a gross dereliction of duty and dastardly violation of a public trust.
Someone simply wants to bash America won't listen. They will simply rewrite the 7 Commandments with new language...the information stream should be guardians of the truth...except...when the means justifies the leftist ends. And anyone who doesn't follow this newly written commandment doesn't have "half a brain" or is "insane".
Photo shopping photographs, making up phony police sources, staging phony bomb sites, making up phony statistics of losses, inventing ambulance bombings that didn't occur...are all "one time events" that shouldn't be taken en masse...and by the way..."We hate George Bush, we hate George Bush, we hate George Bush...nyah, nyah."
Posted by: cfbleachers at November 30, 2006 02:24 PM (V56h2)
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The whole point of CY's post is to attack the credibility of the AP based upon some possibly fabricated reporting, the argument being that if they did it this time, they will do it again or have already done it in the past, thereby making their credibility suspect and easier to dismiss on any story. You don't have to write those words for the implication to be clear. I don't know how many of you have talked about reading comprehension on this site, but if you cannot see what is implicit in the way CY frames the argument, then you are willfully ignorant and too attached to your biases to debate rationally.
My point in response was and still is, if you argue that credibility is seriously damaged by fabricated stories to the point that you can dismiss future AP stories based upon a possibly fabricated one now, then to be consistent you need to apply the same standard to the Administration.
All responses to my original post have either been an attempt to distract from the original comment or simply to obfuscate.
If you are going to hold the AP to a standard of credibility to which you won't even hold your Government, then there's no further need for discussion since no logical argument will have any effect.
And just as an aside, all you have to do is read any of cfbleachers posts to see what I'm talking about (although I believe many of you might actually agree with him).
Posted by: George Orwell at November 30, 2006 02:50 PM (AyaAr)
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George I can only speak for myself, I never said I would disreguard any future AP stories, but unless they improve their track record, clean up a little, I will consider them suspect.
I consider anything that comes out of ANY politicians mouth suspect until proven correct. My idealogies and beliefs lean towards the right, doesn't mean I'm straight-line all the way.
I took CY's post to mean that the story in question is definately suspect and they should produce proof of the story or recant it, or they will face a serious credibility problem.
I agree with that. Why don't you? (Note, I am not asking about equating it to the current administration, just to their own credibility, that's my question to you).
Posted by: Retired Navy at November 30, 2006 03:03 PM (elhVA)
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George -
"to be consistent you need to apply the same standard to the Administration."
Of course we need to apply standards accuracy in information to this Admin. I also think CY is correct - tell me things that later prove mendacious or ill-founded and I'm a fool to take you at face value next time. These are not two mutually exclusive viewpoints. IMO, from the comments I've seen not many here disagree.
I disagree with cfb that somehow this sensationalism-seeking is some grand leftist conspiracy. Hogwash - this is American capitalism at its best. Same with the broadcast meda and all those talking heads and gossip columns and on and on. They want ratings - they want readership. AP wants a big fat scoop not to make anybody look bad - Christ, we don't need any help with that in Iraq - but to make bucks. The media is neither monolothic nor driven by idealogy - they are that most conservative of animals - corporations and corporations often over-reach in search of profits.
When I see AP pull this crap or Reuters photoshop smoke over Beirut, I see just another war profiteer.
Posted by: sami at November 30, 2006 03:19 PM (3qVpU)
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"My point in response was and still is, if you argue that credibility is seriously damaged by fabricated stories to the point that you can dismiss future AP stories based upon a possibly fabricated one now, then to be consistent you need to apply the same standard to the Administration"
What a load of horse hockey. Why is there a need to tie in the administration on a litany of off the subject leftist talking points...to a discussion of whether the BBC, Reuters, AP, CNN or any other news organization is intentionally distorting facts, dummying up photos, or making up phony "sources" for events that never took place?
This smacks of a "Jimmy started it..."
Why not just stay on task here and discuss the fact that the media has willfully prostituting themselves to advance leftist agendas?
Because it feels awful to discuss that leftists are utilizing the Ministry of Media as a propaganda arm and you simply don't have what it takes to admit it.
The standards are this....we get our news and form our opinions based upon a reliance that the media will be objective and give us facts to make up our minds.
Politicians have a different role. They are advocates for a position. If they lie, we need facts to catch them in those lies. If the people given the public trust to report the facts and truth...to allow us to come to reasoned decisions are liars with an agenda...they are worse than the advocates...whom we expect to try to "sell" us their position.
The media is charged with a public trust. When they bastardize that mandate by projecting a far left agenda and distorting the truth...they are the WORST element, the MOST dangerous.
Get it? If a criminal tries to rob your house, you call a cop. If a cop tries to rob your house...who do you call?
If a politician lies to you, you ask the free press to tell you the truth. If the press lies to you...you have no chance. Get it?
Posted by: cfbleachers at November 30, 2006 03:24 PM (V56h2)
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Retired Navy,
It is agreed: The AP needs to prove its story. Now, let's give them some time to do it.
Posted by: George Orwell at November 30, 2006 04:03 PM (AyaAr)
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This must be a dumb question, but how do we know this guy isn't using an alias?
Posted by: Sam Cohn at November 30, 2006 09:57 PM (iBgGu)
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Treacherous Sands
Got any idea how many times the balance of power has shifted in the Middle East over the past 5000 years, or how many empires have risen, rules, and fallen over the region?
See 5,000 years of history in 90 seconds, courtesy of
Maps of War:
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
08:39 AM
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1
Thanks, CY, for posting that. What a great animation!
Posted by: Anonymous for now at November 29, 2006 10:28 AM (RMHg5)
2
And your point is?
The same kind of animation can be done with Europe, and then we could see how that one goes. As factual information, it's interesting, but says absolutely nothing.
Posted by: George Orwell at November 29, 2006 11:38 AM (B+TME)
3
The point is that lines on the map shift like dunes in the desert but the ancient cities remain. And all indications are that it's gonna stay that way forever. We aren't the first to tell the Shi'ites, Sunnis, and Kurds that there's a new boss in town and they'd better fall in line; I'm damn sure we won't be the last. You can call them savages if it makes you feel better, but keep in mind they're calling us Clueless Conquerors #30. And it may seem outrageous to suggest that people whose martial prowess most famously involved the javelin can still cause headaches in the age of satellite-guided munitions, but there's just something about that place that's never going to work the way we want it to.
Can't we please just get fusion to work and wash our hands of the whole area?
Posted by: scarshapedstar at November 29, 2006 05:59 PM (glUhi)
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They left out the Axis takeover of the 30s and 40s, but otherwise it's a pretty neat display.
Posted by: Tim at November 29, 2006 10:15 PM (WiHUE)
5
Great show and scarshapedstar hit it on the head.
Almost 5,000 years ago an accurate description of Ishmael, the father of the Arabs, was penned in Gen.16:12 "And he shall be a wild ass of a man: his hand shall be against every man, and every man's hand against him; and he shall dwell in the face of all his brethren". Lots of Ishmaels running around those sand dunes today.
Posted by: Nels at November 30, 2006 05:00 PM (o5Ukr)
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Ah, but none of the preceding conquerors have ever glazed those dunes yet.
Posted by: Bob at December 01, 2006 10:30 AM (yYDr5)
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To poster calling himself George Orwell.
First, find a new monica, this make you appear a little bigheaded to say the least.
Second, there doesn't need to be a point. That's the history of the region presented in a very efficient way.
If a particular aspect of history doesn't support a particular point of view is that history invalid, to be ignored or rewritten? Sounds like something your namesake might have written about.
Posted by: drj at December 05, 2006 10:29 AM (Cr5Iu)
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November 28, 2006
One War, Not Yet Fully Engaged
Please tell me that this means he gets it:
President Bush said Tuesday he is not ready to abandon the battlefield in Iraq to sectarian insurgents whose violent attacks on innocent Iraqis are part of a broad goal to overthrow governments and send coalition forces running.
"Extremists are using terror to stop the spread of freedom. Some are Shiite extremists, others are Sunni extremists, but they represent different faces of the same threat. And if they succeed in undermining fragile democracies and drive the forces of freedom out of the region, they will have an open field to pursue their goals," Bush said in a speech at the NATO summit in Riga, Latvia.
Insurgents "seek to convince America and our allies that we cannot defeat them and that our only hope is to withdraw and abandon an entire region to their domination," he said. "If we allow the extremists to do this, then 50 years from now history will look back on our time with unforgiving clarity and demand to know why we did not act."
I can
hope that President Bush means what he says here. It would mean that he does, in fact, still understand the stakes of the larger conflict beyond the borders of Iraq, but what troubles me is his reluctance to publicly admit what he already knows, which is that those most responsible for the continued support and spread of violence in Iraq is not al Qaeda, but Iran and Syria.
As I've mentioned previously,
a state of war exists between the United States and the governments of Iran and Syria, and that the question before us now is whether or not we chose to acknowledge this state of war that our adversaries have instigated, and if we will take the steps needed end this state of conflict with a minimal loss of life on all sides.
Bob Woodward's book,
State of Denial, states that Iran's elite Revolutionary Guards have been urging Hezbollah to train Iraqi insurgents on how to build and use shaped-charge IEDs to target American armored vehicles.
Woodward states (via
NRO):
Pages 414-415: "Some evidence indicated that the Iranian-backed terrorist group Hezbollah was training insurgents to build and use the shaped IED's, at the urging of the Iranian Revolutionary Guard Corps. That kind of action was arguably an act of war by Iran against the United States. If we start putting out everything we know about these things, Zelikow felt, the administration might well start a fire it couldn't put out..."
Page 449: "The components and the training for (the IEDs) had more and more clearly been traced to Iran, one of the most troubling turns in the war."
Page 474ß: "The radical Revolutionary Guards Corps had asked Hizbollah, the terrorist organization, to conduct some of the training of Iraqis to use the EFPs, according to U.S. Intelligence. If all this were put out publicly, it might start a fire that no one could put out...Second, if it were true, it meant that Iranians were killing American soldiers — an act of war..."
This same theme was picked up by today's
New York Times, which
reports:
A senior American intelligence official said Monday that the Iranian-backed group Hezbollah had been training members of the Mahdi Army, the Iraqi Shiite militia led by Moktada al-Sadr.
The official said that 1,000 to 2,000 fighters from the Mahdi Army and other Shiite militias had been trained by Hezbollah in Lebanon. A small number of Hezbollah operatives have also visited Iraq to help with training, the official said.
Iran has facilitated the link between Hezbollah and the Shiite militias in Iraq, the official said. Syrian officials have also cooperated, though there is debate about whether it has the blessing of the senior leaders in Syria.
While they would
never dare to characterize it as such, the
Times article verifies what Woodward and former FBI Director Louis Freeh has already told us: we are at War with Iran.
Iran builds shaped-charge IEDS, delivers those shaped-charge IEDS to terrorists that they have created and/or trained, for use against American soldiers. Iran is quite seriously at war with the United States. Why do we refuse to acknowledge that?
Michael Ledeen
notes (my bold):
Thanks to Cliff, and to Dexter Filkins for getting someone to admit, once again, that Iran and Syria are all over Iraq.
Victor says we should first stabilize Iraq and Afghanistan, but that's skipping a step. It is impossible so long as the mullahs rule in Tehran and Assad commands in Damascus. It is a regional war. If we continue to misunderstand it, if we remain locked in this fundamental error of strategic vision, we will endlessly respond to our enemies' initiatives, playing defense in one place after another. Today in Iraq and Afghanistan, tomorrow in Lebanon, Somalia, Kenya, Ethiopea and Eritrea (that is the mullahs' game plan), then in Israel and Europe, and finally here at home. We do not need intelligence agencies to know this, all we need to do is listen to our enemies, who announce it at the top of their lungs.
There is no escape from this war, and we haven't even begun to wage it. Once we do, we will find that we've got many political and economic weapons, most of them inside our enemies' lands. I entirely agree with Victor that Iran and Syria are fragile, brittle, and anxious. They know their people hate them, and they know that revolution could erupt if we supported it.
Of course, as Victor says, our leaders may be so demoralized that we could just surrender in Iraq and Afghanistan, as the realists and the antisemites desire. But that would only delay the reckoning, and ensure that the war will be far bloodier.
I stated in
Kneecapping Snakes and
other posts that the one sure way to end the state sponsorship of terrorism is to make that sponsorship extremely counterproductive for the nation/states involved. Assad in Syria and the Mullah's in Iran support terrorism in Iraq, Lebanon, Gaza, and elsewhere, because this support is a cost-effective way for them to project their foreign policy goals.
Their goals--the humiliating defeat of the United States in Iraq, the destruction of Israel, their push of nuclear weapons and increasing regional control and influence--are quite clear, but then, so is the remedy to this problem;
if President Bush and allied nations admit to and treat this as a regional war.
If we limit out goals in Iran and Syria to knocking them out of the terror game and don't try to rebuild their societies from the ground up, we can do so relatively easily by crushing the ability of Iran to threaten Persian Gulf shipping and by taking out its refineries. Ironically, Iran is oil-rich, but gas-poor.
Coalition air strikes targeting the Iranian Navy, refineries, and other key targets could bring the mullacracy to it's knees within weeks, without the significant use of U.S. ground forces, and only a (relatively minor) projection of air power. A U.S. Navy blockade of Oman would keep Iran from importing the gasoline it needs to survive.
Syria, minus Iranian support, would be even easier to destabilize.
Take Syria and Iran out of the terror game, and Hezbollah begins to falter in Lebanon, giving Lebanese democracy a chance. Take Syria and Iran out of the terror game, and Israeli citizens wouldn't have to worry about Hezbollah's ability to so quickly rearm and instigate another war.
Take Syria and Iran out of the terror game, and manpower, weaponry, and funding for al Qaeda in Iraq begins to abate, as the growing number of Sunni tribes embracing the
Sahawa movement hunt down and kill foreign fighters. Take Syria and Iran our out of the terror game, and Muqtada al-Sadr, the thug-leader of Shiites in the Baghdad slums, suddenly finds his Medhi Army militia without new munitions, or training, or financial support, and as his capability as a military threat fades, so does his political power.
The greatest "secret" in the War on Terror is that we have the capability of turning the strategic war around on a dime, if only our leaders will lead.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
12:05 PM
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1
So we just drop a few bombs on the mullahs in Tehran and all will be well? They'll fall, Syria will fall, and we won't stir up any anti-American nationalism in either country, or provoke Islamic fundamentalists to overthrow moderate states like Egypt or Jordan?
What are you smoking? I'd sure love to live in your fantasyland, mon.
Tell you what. Go take all your little plastic soldiers and plastic planes and plastic tanks to the sandbox and play "bomb the A-rabs" to your heart's content.
The rest of us live in the real world.
Except maybe Bush, who is still looking for Daddy to bail him out of our last failed trip to neocon dreamland.
Posted by: liberalpercy at November 28, 2006 12:57 PM (CMyz0)
2
You say, "What troubles me is his reluctance to publicly admit that those most responsible for the continued support and spread of violence in Iraq is not al Qaeda, but Iran and Syria."
That's SO funny!
It seems clear that the single person most responsible for the continued support and spread of violence in Iraq is George Bush.
Of course, that fact is in perfect alignment with the additional fact that the single largest individual holder of the T-Bills financing the Iraq War for Profit is George W Bush.
The more debt Bush creates, the more personal profit he rapes from the innocent taxpayers of America.
Posted by: fiskhus jim at November 28, 2006 01:12 PM (V7aQ1)
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bush most certainly does not get it...but the neo-cons who brought you this war get it, and they got it way back in September 2001 when they urged a regime change in iraq even if evidence showed iraq was not associated with 9/11. they knew then that syria and iran would be involved as was the isreal/palestinian conflict. they saw that this would indeed extend beyond iraqs borders and was ultimately to become a region wide conflict. unfortunately these chicken-hawks had their ever-present blinders on, and refused to see the awful places it could lead. now we are stuck with a problem that could have been handled so much better in other ways. but the neo-cons had it all figured out. or so they thought.
do you actually believe the US is in a position to "...rebuild their societies from the ground-up..."? we don't even seem to be able to rebuild afghanistan - a relatively simple task. we have already put the country our children and their children will live in into an awful financial position. we have stretched our military to the breaking point. and you want to rebuild the societies of the middle east? what are you smoking? the blood of 2800 soldiers, and the limbs of tens of thousands of others are on your hands for supporting this war of choice. how many will be enough before you wake up from your delirium?
Posted by: jay k. at November 28, 2006 01:18 PM (yu9pS)
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If syria is such a problem why do we outsource our torturing to them?
Posted by: madmatt at November 28, 2006 01:27 PM (J8hqn)
5
Yes, more war...that makes sense. This administration has prosecuted Iraq so competently. We're swimming in so much success in the Middle East.
Posted by: Joe Public at November 28, 2006 01:31 PM (VJsdM)
6
What patently blows me away is the deliberate short-sightedness of my liberal guests.
They all seem to be under the delusion that if we simply pull out of Iraq, that terrorism will somehow cease to exist.
I’ve got a news flash for you, kids.
9/11 happened before we went into Iraq or Afghanistan, and if we retreat from either country, for any reason, those fighting us there will rightly consider it a victory, and attempt to execute more and more attacks against us.
I understand that you really don’t care about the Sunni genocide that would almost certainly erupt if we leave as you desire. Despite all your talk of respect for multiculturalism, like so much of your character, it is only skin-deep. The defeat for Bush and the neocons you dreamed of is certainly worth a few tens of thousands of Iraqi lives, and the spreading power of a nation that wants to “wipe Israel off the map,” right?
Of course, that might mean the deaths of a few million to tens of millions of more souls in a nuclear exchange, but you could always claim you didn’t see it coming, just as your ideological forefathers did as the made room for Nazism in Germany in the late 30s.
Oh, wait… you don’t have that excuse. You can see it coming, but you are just so focused on your short-sited goal that like Gollum, you can’t seem to grasp the larger effects of your myopic quest for power, or else, you simply don't care.
GET BUSH!
No matter the cost.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at November 28, 2006 01:43 PM (g5Nba)
7
Joe et al.
Try reading something other than the WaPo, NYT and KOS for your news. Yes - there is an insurgency going on in Iraq. Very astute of you to figure that out. Now riddle me this because you are all so bright? How many insurgents are there? C'mon - you can do it. Just a simple number.
BTW - Iraq has been a growing problem for over 20 years - it became more critical after the Iran-Iraq War when Ambassador Maddy Albright gave Hussein the nod to invade Kuwait. So to state that the problems there sprung up overnight is preposterous. Start taking in the big picture - there is lots of blame - on both sides of our political spectrum - to go around. Do you truly believe that at some point we would not have had to go take on Hussein for good? Remember - OBL declared war on us in 1994 due to Clinton's policies and the Clinton administration sponsored the "regime change" policies that eventually sent us there. Like I said - Blame to go around. Can't just ignore that.
Posted by: Specter at November 28, 2006 01:46 PM (ybfXM)
8
"What patently blows me away is the deliberate short-sightedness of my liberal guests.
They all seem to be under the delusion that if we simply pull out of Iraq, that terrorism will somehow cease to exist."
Haha. No, CY. We don't. Iraq was never about terrorism in any realistic sense. Now it is. Your side screwed up. Sorry, those are the facts, ma'am.
Your opinion has been relegated to the lunatic fringe of politics now, and you're simply flailing at this point - to our great amusement.
Here's an interesting article for you:
http://www.nybooks.com/articles/19720
"Remember - OBL declared war on us in 1994 due to Clinton's policies and the Clinton administration sponsored the "regime change" policies that eventually sent us there. Like I said - Blame to go around. Can't just ignore that."
So along that line of reasoning, Reagan et al were justified in CREATING OBL, arming, trainng him, and supplying chemical weapons to Iraq along with helping them coordinate their use against Iran?
Being a neocon means never having to admit you're wrong.
Posted by: KC at November 28, 2006 02:03 PM (idmOY)
9
CY,
You're right, leaving Iraq will not eliminate terrorism. I know of nobody on the left or right that thinks that way. That does not mean that what we are doing in Iraq is at all productive. We all want the US to succeed in the fight against terrorism but Iraq has been a disaster in both judgement and execution. You say we only care about getting Bush. I say, you have blinders on if you cannot at this late date admit that Bush is primarily responsible any failure to succeed in Iraq. He's managed to create the current state of affairs whereby our true enemy, Iran is now the regional power broker. That has negative consequences for everyone in the region including our friends the Saudis, not to mention Israel. What we do from here is where we should center the debate. Taking Syria and Iran "out of the terror game" is not a serious policy proposal. They are winning thanks to the ignorance and bluster of this administration. Nothing in the short term is likely to make them want to stop what they're doing. Iraq is lost. The sooner we incorporate that into our thinking, the better off we'll all be.
Posted by: NYNick at November 28, 2006 02:23 PM (vgzEN)
10
Since I'm not a "neo-con", nor am I on ANY wing...perhaps the leftists here...(who continually bend themselves into pretzels attempting to point a finger at America for the "root causes" of all the evil in the world)...how does one explain that I too believe that the pernicious left is the gravest danger to our country?
I am quite "progressive" on domestic "hot button" issues...so I don't fall neatly into the scads of ad hominem attacks hurled by the leftists...I suppose they can simply lump me in with them and dismiss my disgust at their seditious and destructive slander against my country, my troops, ...since they are devoid of patriotism.
They are, in fact...jingoists for World Populism. They aren't Americans at all...they simply reside here. And their slander, mendacious lies and gregorian chanting of the World Populist Playbook...is tired and becoming a cliche'. Learn to think for yourselves and stop being mindless lemmings and parrots.
I don't like the arch-conservatives, nor do I have much in common with them (although I respect faith based morals, over the leftist principles of convenience)...but, I really, really hate the left. They are far more dangerous and they lie with impunity, protected as they are by their Ministry of Media.
Posted by: cfbleachers at November 28, 2006 02:23 PM (V56h2)
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Never about terrorism?
Someone is running from history. The 1993 WTC bombing was a failed attempt by an Iraqi bomb builder working for al Qaeda to set off a chemical/convential bomb.
The 1993 WTC bombing, financed by al Qaeda's Khalid Shaikh Mohammed, was the first and to date only attempted WMD attack in America by al Qaeda and Iraq-affiliated terrorists.
Ramzi Yousef, a Kuwaiti-born al Qaeda terrorist using an Iraqi passport, concocted a plan to detonate a large ammonium nitrate bomb in the basement-level parking decks of WTC 1. The primary intent was to have the foundation of Tower 1 compromised, toppling it into WTC 2, bringing both buildings down and killing as many as possible of the 50,000 people who worked there.
Abdul Rahman Yasin, the Iraqi bomb builder who retreated to Iraq after the attack and lived under Saddam Hussein's protection and with his financial support until the 2003 invasion (just ignore the explicit al Qaeda-Iraq link), created the massive 1,310 lb bomb.
Yasin's bomb was designed to use both conventional blast mechanisms to attempt to topple the buildings, and create a poisonous cyanide cloud to kill anyone inside Tower 1.
As we know, Yasin's bomb failed in both of its goals.
The World Trade Center Towers still stood despite the al Qaeda attack, and the cyanide, instead of being released as a gas as Yasin had designed, was instead vaporized by the explosion. The first chemical weapons attack by al Qaeda on the United States was a dud.
Of course, Yasin wasn’t alone in the Saddam Hussein Condo for Terrorists.
Saddam's other Baghdad guests were Abu Nidal and Abu Abbas, two of the world's most infamous terrorists before Osama bin Laden came around. As for other terrorists, Zarqawi came into Iraq in late 2001 (years before the U.S invasion) and has stayed there ever since (and now always will), while Saddam financed al Qaeda franchise Abu Sayyaf, and is famous for giving money to Palestinian suicide bombers.
Bush screwed up in Iraq... I don't think this is much in doubt by anyone.
What is idiotic, however, is to think that Iraq had nothing to do with terrorism prior to 2003, and to insist that leaving Iraq now for whoever wants to take it will be benficial for either Iraqis or Americans in the long run.
Once more, its blame Bush/necons/Jews/etc for the critics, without any indication of the horrors their "cut and run" solution will manifest.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at November 28, 2006 02:34 PM (g5Nba)
12
I guess it's time to ask a question, and cfb, it's obvious you didn't read the link I posted earlier:
What are you using as a criterion by which you can tell who here is a "leftist"?
If you ask me, you're the unpatriotic one here - if simply for your fealty in front of an obviously incompetent administration when they obviously failed to plan for any semblance of the war after the war. Ignored calls for more troops, ignored State Department reports designed to smooth the occupation and transition, and just outright dismissed any ideas that went against their rosy predictions of all the dominoes falling just they wanted them to in the ME.
Is it unpatriotic of me to say that at this point, after the after-war has been so badly mismanaged as to render it nearly impossible to achieve anything positive in Iraq (if positive comes, it will be at the Iraqis' hands themselves)?
And now you want us, your shadowy "left" to support you in widening the war to include Iran, which indisputably presented a bigger threat than Saddam ever did, when we can't even manage Iraq and Afghanistan?
I think the patriotic thing to do at this point is to reassess and prosecute the criminals responsible for causing this mess in the first place. Spare me the "blame america first" bullshit too, because if anyone ever invaded this country, they'd have hell to pay if they came up against me.
It's people like you who cannot communicate in any fashion other than jingoism and have principles based only in convenience.
You ought to read this, and i promise it's not written by a "liberal":
http://www.amconmag.com/2006/2006_11_20/cover.html
Posted by: KC at November 28, 2006 02:34 PM (idmOY)
13
Iraq has been a growing problem for over 20 years - it became more critical after the Iran-Iraq War when Ambassador Maddy Albright gave Hussein the nod to invade Kuwait.
Ahem.
April Catherine Glaspie (born April 26, 1942), American diplomat, is best-known for her meeting with Saddam Hussein prior Gulf War of 1991 in which she told the Iraqi dictator that the US official policy was not to get involved in Iraq's dispute with Kuwait.
You guys just have no interest in reality, history, or facts do you?
Posted by: tbogg at November 28, 2006 02:41 PM (n+/Jk)
14
CFBleachers,
Since I'm not a "neo-con", nor am I on ANY wing...perhaps the leftists here...(who continually bend themselves into pretzels attempting to point a finger at America for the "root causes" of all the evil in the world)...how does one explain that I too believe that the pernicious left is the gravest danger to our country?"
A grave danger to the country? Please, let's look at the facts. This country has survived a civil war, two world wars, fires, floods, hurricanes and volcanos but you think that the left, who until this last election, governed nothing on the federal level, is a grave danger?
What's your solution? Maybe you want to have us all killed or loaded on ships headed for some far off land? It's how democracy works and if what some of your fellow citizens say and think is not to your liking, then you should use your intelligence and logic to educate us. If you have some ideas, let's hear them. If you just want tell us all how much you hate people to the left of you politically, thanks. We got it.
Posted by: NYNick at November 28, 2006 02:42 PM (vgzEN)
15
"Abdul Rahman Yasin, the Iraqi bomb builder who retreated to Iraq after the attack and lived under Saddam Hussein's protection and with his financial support until the 2003 invasion (just ignore the explicit al Qaeda-Iraq link), created the massive 1,310 lb bomb."
From the reviled Wikipedia:"On several occasions, Iraq offered to turn Yasin over to the US government in exchange for lifting UN economic sanctions. Tariq Aziz, spokesman of Iraq, claimed that in the 1990's all Iraq wanted in return was a signed statement that Iraq had handed over Yasin. But reportedly the statement presented to the U.S. at the time contained lengthy wording essentially exonerating Iraqi involvement in the 1993 WTC attack. Nevertheless, Kenneth Pollack of the State Department stated that there was no CIA information tying Iraq into the 1993 WTC bombing.
With Yasin reportedly being held as a prisoner in Hussein's Iraq, Leslie Stahl of CBS interviewed him there for a segment on 60 Minutes on May 23, 2002 (see below). Yasin appeared in prison pajamas and handcuffs. It was claimed that Iraq had held Yasin prisoner on the outskirts of Baghdad since 1994. Stahl also interviewed US Attorneys who acknowledged they had agreed to release Yasin to Iraq. (CBS 2002 Briley 2005)"
Illustrating that there's always a little more to the story than the neocons would like you to hear.
Incidentally, in 2003 ALL the prisoners were released by Saddam in anticipation of the invasion.
Abu Nidal? Give us a break on that one too:
Abu Nidal is known to have entered Iraq in 1999 after being expelled from Libya by Gaddafi, who was distancing himself from terrorism in an effort to re-establish diplomatic relations with the U.S. and UK after Lockerbie. The Iraqi government later said Abu Nidal had entered the country using a fake Yemeni passport and was not there with their knowledge, but by 2001, at the latest, he was living there openly, in defiance of the Jordanian government, whose state-security court had sentenced him to death by hanging in absentia in 2001 for his role in the 1994 assassination of a Jordanian diplomat in Beirut.
On August 19, 2002, al-Ayyam, the official newspaper of the Palestinian Authority, reported that Abu Nidal had died three days earlier of multiple gunshot wounds in his home in the wealthy al-Masbah neighborhood of al-Jadriyah, Baghdad, where the villa he lived in was owned by the Mukhabarat, or Iraqi secret service. [16]
Iraq's chief of intelligence, Taher Jalil Habbush, held a press conference on August 21, 2002, at which he handed out photographs of Abu Nidal's bloodied body, along with a medical report purportedly showing he had died after a single bullet had entered his mouth and exited his skull. Habbush said that Iraq's internal security force had arrived at Abu Nidal's house to arrest him on suspicion of conspiring with the Kuwaiti and Saudi governments to bring down Saddam Hussein. Saying he needed a change of clothes, Abu Nidal went into his bedroom and shot himself in the mouth, Habbush said. He died eight hours later in intensive care. [31] He is known to have been suffering from leukemia.
Other sources disagree about the cause of death. Palestinian sources told journalists that Abu Nidal had in fact died of multiple gunshot wounds. Marie Colvin and Sonya Murad, writing in The Sunday Times, say that he was assassinated by a hit squad of 30 men from Office 8, the Iraqi Mukhabarat assassination unit. [16] Jane's reported that Iraqi intelligence had been following him for several months and had found classified documents in his home about a U.S. attack on Iraq. When they arrived to raid his house on August 14 (not August 16, according to Jane's), fighting broke out between Abu Nidal's men and Iraqi intelligence. In the midst of this, Abu Nidal rushed into his bedroom and was killed, though Jane's writes it remains unclear whether he killed himself or was killed by someone else. Jane's sources insist that his body bore several gunshot wounds. Jane's further suggests that Saddam Hussein may have ordered him arrested and killed because he regarded Abu Nidal as a mercenary who would have acted against him in the event of an American invasion, if the money had been right. [32]
Posted by: KC at November 28, 2006 02:51 PM (idmOY)
16
Taking Syria and Iran "out of the terror game" is not a serious policy proposal.
And precisely why not?
Are you referring to the mechanics of such an operation? Such strikes are easy to effect, and given the delapidated state of Iranian naval, air, and air defense forces, quite technically acheivable, getting easier to repeat each time they are necessary.
Or are you referring to the effect that removing the state support of terrorism might have? In this instance you are equally wrong.
Hezbollah is presently a threat to two Middle Eastern democracies precisely because it is funded and supplied by Iran and Syria. Cut that funding, and after the next inevitable Hezbollah/Israeli war, Hezbollah will no longer be able to rearm or buy off the civilian population with cash settlements. Remove Hezbollah's money and munitions flow, and they lose a lot of their influence.
In Iraq, troublemaker al-Sadr is on the ascent because the Iranians are supplying him with money, men, training, and munitions. The Iraqi government is terrorfied to act against him because of Iran's support. Knock out that support, and al-Sadr reverts to being another loud-mouthed street thug without the power to threaten the central government.
More likely, it "isn't serious" because you simply don't like the sound of it, so you would dismiss it out of hand.
But the basic facts remain:
rogue states sponsor terrorism as a tool for "cheap" foreign policymake the cost of support too high by holding them accountable for the cost of that support, and you force these states out of the terrorism game
Libya used to be a major state sponsor of terrorism until operation El Dorado Canyon, and after that they decided it was not in their best interests. We have the capability to carry out far more successful operations against Iran than we did against Libya for many reasons, technical, diplomatic, and geographical.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at November 28, 2006 02:57 PM (g5Nba)
17
As much fun as this is, I have to go run some errands.
Let me quote from the article to which I linked above:
"The unseriousness began not long after 9/11. On Oct. 15, 2001, for example, National Review—still the most powerful brand in conservative opinion, whose pronouncements the movement must either accept or at least refrain from challenging—wrote, in an editorial entitled “At War: Defining Victory”:
The logic of a ‘war on terrorism’ points beyond itself. … The phrase is meant to suggest that our hostility is not confined to those people who can be proved to have materially aided the attacks of September 11. It encompasses all those who mean to do our people harm. … Bombing bin Laden, if we find him, will not end [this war]. Nor will overthrowing the Taliban. Victory requires either changing the regimes of Iraq, Syria, Iran, Libya, and Sudan, or frightening them enough to change their behavior towards us.
“Defining Victory” describes the post-9/11 world in terms that have since become familiar. First, it insists on a war that has no definite enemy and no foreseeable end. Short of one-world despotism or universal brotherhood, the U.S. cannot literally defeat “all those who mean to do our people harm.” To trim the hyperbole, NR goes on to name five examples of potential enemies (plus, in later editorials, Saudi Arabia) but does not explain how the list was generated or whether it is even complete. The reader gathers only that we should threaten or go to war with an unspecified number of troublesome nations."
and
"Second, the editors use the term “war” in a purely figurative sense. At the time of the editorial, the U.S. was not at war with Syria, Sudan, or Iran nor, realistically speaking, with any other nation on the list. No matter how vulnerable or despised, no Muslim nation can be turned into a sacrificial substitute for bin Laden. Nor, no matter how often incanted, can the phrase “at war” be made to describe an actual state of affairs. A rhetorical bludgeon designed to compel assent to certain policies, it begs the question of whether war is advisable in the first place.
Third, “Defining Victory” does not identify a casus belli. Neither Iraq, Syria, Iran, Libya, nor Sudan attacked us on 9/11. Later debate would focus on the legitimacy of preventive war as a defense against future threats. All foreign nations, however, by definition pose hypothetical threats; at some point, those threats become so remote, trivial, or contingent that preventive war cannot be distinguished from an aggressive war of domination. By urging belligerence against nations with no known designs—to say nothing of any capacity—for harming the U.S., “Defining Victory” surely advocated crossing that point."
Hear that? That's the sound of your pet foreign policy pretty much blown out of the water with a few simple sentences.
And for the sake of posterity, here are the links again:
http://www.amconmag.com/2006/2006_11_20/cover.html
http://www.nybooks.com/articles/19720
Posted by: KC at November 28, 2006 02:59 PM (idmOY)
18
jay k.
Not what I said at all. You obviously misread things in order to bolster your opinion.
As I said - the problem in Iraq goes way back. And yes - Reagan did have something to do with it. So did Carter. So get off your high horses and accept the facts that the problem there now DID NOT grow overnight just because Bush took office. I have not seen one of you be able to counter that argument. Instead you want to point fingers and call names and change the goal posts. I said in my previous post that THERE WAS BLAME TO GO AROUND ON BOTH SIDES OF THE POLITICAL SPECTRUM. I did not just blame Clinton. What I said was true. Sorry if you think terrorism started just after Bush took office. Kind of short sighted aren't you?
But now we are downstream from all of the events that got us to this point (get it? it didn't just happen in the last 6 years - prove me wrong - I dare you to try). We are there and that's that. There is an insurgency which may or may not be being fueled by Iran and Syria. That's that. If we withdraw we face not only humiliation, but probably more attacks from terrorists, and a humanitarian crisis in Iraq on a level not seen since "oil-for-food" (who caused that now?).
Now you folks ran on "Fix Iraq" and won. Great. What's your plan? Got any yet? Four weeks and counting until the great "New Direction" comes into power. What's the plan? Why is it that most Americans (57% at last count) feel the dems have NO PLAN? Could there be a reason they feel that way?
At least I am honest enough to admit that all sides have screwed up on this. Most of the leftists here just say "Bush Bush Bush" and that is egregious and intellectually dishonest. So much for liberal ideals, right jay k.?
Posted by: Specter at November 28, 2006 03:08 PM (ybfXM)
19
Specter: Who was President when Saddam was 'given permission' to invade Kuwait? Bush I.
KC: Who put permanent bases in Saudi Arabia that OBL used as an excuse for his jihad? Bush I.
Just a little history for you all. You can try to blame Clinton, but he spent most of his time in office trying to deal with the consequences of the failures of the Reagan/Bush years.
And CY, Nobody expects the terrorists to just go away if we leave Iraq. You are arguing with a straw man. However, if we were not bogged down in Iraq, spending $Billions on Halliburton contracts, phantom WMDs, and getting thousands of our troops killed and wounded, maybe we could spend a little time and effort going after Al Qaeda. You know - the folks that pulled off 9/11 while Bush the dumber was ignoring all the warnings. Remember them - the folks who WERE NOT in Iraq until we invaded.
But - that makes too much sense for it to sink in when you can start more 'easy' wars in Iran and Syria. Why not Libya, Yemen, North Korea and a few other places that might be fun to bomb while we're at it.
Let's see - we don't much like the folks running Cuba and Venzuela either. A few days of bombing will surely bring them down. Some leftist just won election in Ecuador. Bomb him! May as well take out those pesky French while we're at it.
Face it. You are NUTS if you think creating more wars, which will breed more terrorists and more enemies, is any kind of an answer. We're dealing with religious zealots here. When was the last time a bunch of 'true believers' backed down after a few bombs?
I do hope Bush "gets it" that he has failed miserably in Iraq, but I'm afraid he's too stubborn and too egotistical to stop wasting our brave military personel in the crossfire of the mess he created.
The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again, expecting different results. We will be insane as a nation if we let that happen.
Posted by: liberalpercy at November 28, 2006 03:19 PM (CMyz0)
20
CY,
Interesting discussion so I'll remember this site. Like a lot of Americans I really want to see some serious butt kicking after 911 and Saddam was a handy target and a bad guy with WMD to boot. Even after VietNam... Well live and learn.
Your neocon proposal is, of course, absurd. Wars are not won from the air - they require grunts up front. See Persia Gulf I & II, WWII, VietNam. Regimes are not taken out by air strikes unless you wanna go nuclear - see WWII, VietNam, etc.
Think about it - would carpet bombing DC put the American govt out of it? Would London surrender to an onslaught of bombs and cruise missles? Would Paris...well, never mind about Paris.
After Berlin was flattened in 1945, it still cost the Russians 100,000 to finally take out the govt. I hope we've learned from Persia II that the Powell doctrine is not only viable but necessary to prevent a failed state.
So while you barricade the seas to cut Iran off of gasoline, are you gonna bomb russian pipeline and trucks, stop and board russian and arab tankers? Sink them if they don't stop. WTF is the matter with your head?
Posted by: sami at November 28, 2006 03:31 PM (3qVpU)
21
CY,
You wrote:
"More likely, it "isn't serious" because you simply don't like the sound of it, so you would dismiss it out of hand."
Not so. I do not see how it is possible. I'm far from alone. You may think Iran is going to be easy to topple but you are definitely in the minority. We are unlikely to confront Iran militarily and to pretend otherwise is a fools game. We have to think about how we can limit Iranian influence. It will be years before we can be in a position to defeat them militarily. Right now, the Russians are busy building them a nuclear reactor. Do you think Russia would stand around and watch their cash cow disappear? Do you think you can gather enough military strength to occupy Afghanistan, Iran and Iraq all at the same time? Do you think anything short of that will have the desired effect? I don't see how it's possible.
Posted by: NYNick at November 28, 2006 03:37 PM (vgzEN)
22
We cannot attack Iran because that would be an act of war which would rally support around the mullahs and probably provoke an open war between Iran and the United States over Iraq that we would have started and thus would not be supported by the American people. Also, even though we do not import oil from Iran, destroying their refineries will drive oil prices upward (which i am in favor of because it will reduce our dependence on foreign oil) but Bush is deathly afraid of an increase in the price of oil and would not do anything to increase them.
Posted by: Josh at November 28, 2006 03:38 PM (yUgZm)
23
Percy,
I'm arguing exactly the same point as you are here. CY is building straw men with his arguments and knocking them right on down.
And you're completely right when you say that they are looking for an "easy" war that will be carried out by planes and weapons designed and built by Halliburton, NG, LMCO, etc. (yes, I know - Halliburton doesn't build planes - yet)
The war-is-the-answer posters here are making the same mistake by advocating these strikes on Iran and Syria that Bushco made when pushing for war with Iraq. Namely that all the dominoes will fall conveniently into place as they say they will. Nevermind the inconvenient reality of a Middle East already destabilized and ripe for radical Islamification due to the policies of this president, that not too long ago CY and the like were supporting blindly.
Citing lightning raids on Libya which were done in response to specific incidents is just silly, as the situations are completely different.
All of the sudden they're not just (baselessly) blaming Carter and Clinton. You can't tell me that you saw that sentiment here just 6 months ago. Now there's blame to go around "everywhere"! Well, how convenient.
The fact is that both WTC attacks were planned and made possible on the watch of Bush I and Bush II. That the first WTC attack came during Clinton's term is irrelevant.
The Republicans couldn't care less about actually fighting terrorism when there's a Global War on Terrorism to worry about!
Finally, if you think that CY and the others here DON'T want to take NK, Yemen, etc. down in short order, you're kidding yourself. What you have here are adults stuck in the sand box, with everyday waking fantasies of ruling the world. They just happen to live in the only country that they feel is capable of doing it.
Posted by: KC at November 28, 2006 03:43 PM (idmOY)
24
KC,
You weren't here 6 months ago so don't try putting words in my mouth. My attitude has not changed. Maybe you aren't old enough to have been around during all the other crises that have led to this point. Don't be disrespectful.
Posted by: Specter at November 28, 2006 03:50 PM (ybfXM)
25
"You weren't here 6 months ago so don't try putting words in my mouth...."
Yeah Specter, I was. I've commented here longer than 6 months ago under the exact same name - but if you're unwilling to admit that at one point you backed Bush's vision for the Iraq war, praised Reagan (undeservedly) for bringing about the downfall of the Soviet union while ignoring his role in the proliferation of terrorism, and at the same time blamed Clinton and Carter for terrorism as we know it, then that's your problem and not mine.
And you're also just proving the point I made earlier.
Being a neocon means never having to admit you're wrong. How convenient and disingenuous of the "right" to simply assert: "well, here we are - no matter how we got here." After calling anyone who opposed the Iraq war in principle, execution, or both traitors, un-American, a fifth column, and worse.
Believe me, you don't want to get into a "which side calls the other side worse names?" match with me.
I hope you're ready for some Congressional investigations and oversight for a change.
Posted by: KC at November 28, 2006 04:11 PM (idmOY)
26
"A grave danger to the country? Please, let's look at the facts. This country has survived a civil war, two world wars, fires, floods, hurricanes and volcanos but you think that the left, who until this last election, governed nothing on the federal level, is a grave danger?"
I'm not sure I'm following, NYNick...our civil war and two world wars outline your time frame...and the left has not governed anything on a federal level during that time frame????
Forgetting for a moment that surviving two world wars was accomplished with the SUPPORT of most Americans, that fires, floods, volcanoes are GENERALLY not fodder for complaint by the pernicious left (nor were other acts of nature, such as hurricanes...that is, until recently)...this has NOTHING to do with the left's nauseating, incessant, shrieking about how the (here please place one of the following: Government, Right-wing, military, greedy corporations, religious Christians, George Bush personally) is/are to blame for all the ills of the world.
The left have shown themselves to be puerile, obnoxious, inconsistent and incoherent in their never ending litany of complaints about America. (see also, Israel).
Their inexorable march toward World Populism (warmed over European Socialism), fuels this loathing of all things American.
They suffer from arrested adolescence and they are insufferable in their irrational and wild-eyed hatred of "the establishment"...whomever that might be for the moment.
They act like spoiled little brats, think they are much smarter and better informed than everyone else...but the smug and pedantic attitude is unwarranted and their self-proclaimed air of superiority is undeserved.
Facts are inconvenient. Reason is replaced by shrieking. The goal is simply to crap on the home team...and this is somehow "chic". The left needs to grow up. They want a nanny state, because they need a nanny.
I will defend to my last drawn breath, the right for anyone to engage in principled dissent. What I can't stand...is studied sedition disguised as dissent. If you hate the country you live in, if you despise all that she stands for...then stand up and say that you are an enemy of state...don't hide behind the pretense that you are FOR America...just against all that she is and all that she has been and all that she stands for and against.
The seditious left has NEVER been behind America, in ANY conflict. That's because it represents the parent...in a parent-adolescent relationship. And you want your cookies and Coke and cake for breakfast and if you don't get it you are going to hold your breath until you turn blue.
You want intelligence and logic? Show some appreciation for it.
Posted by: cfbleachers at November 28, 2006 04:31 PM (V56h2)
27
Nice strawman links, Larrie, by why should we consider them relevant in the slightest?
By your own links, you admit that bin Laden himself as an individual is irrelevant, a position most of us on the right came to when he went deep into seclusion, and removed himself from anything other than a titular role. To this very day, those might likely to be griping about bin Laden are those lefties that are still under the delusion that if we can kill this one man, that the War on Terror will be over.
You will note that as for Syria, we do have a clearcut by the definition you cite; Qaddafi was scared enough that he has changed his behavior, to the point of disclosing and disposing of a WMD program we knew nothing about. We are currently only fighting in Iraq, while Iran--the driving force behind Shiite militancy affecting three countries, a contributor to the training of Janjaweed militias conducting genocide in Darfur, and the only true ally of Baathist Syria--somehow gets a pass.
No more.
Take out Iran's capability to attack Persian Gulf shipping, and the world's economies can no longer be blackmailed by mad mullahs that oh, by the way, have made perfectly clear their intentions to trigger a regional nuclear war.
Blockade inbound shipments of gasoline and diesel, outside the Persian Gulf in the Gulf of Oman (outside of Iranian reach) and Iran's economy literally sputters to a halt. They either capitulate, or their fragile economy collapses.
As I stated in the original post, and as facts prove, we are at war with Iran, and Iranians are doing their very best to kill American soldiers and our allies. We now need to do what only American's have the technical capability to do, and that is to use the surgical application of force projection to bring a rogue regime to heel by making terrorism literally too expensive a proposition for them to support. If Iran's leaders are forced to choose between supporting Hezbollah and al-Sadr, or watching their own rule collapse under a blockade that crushes their economy, which do you think they will choose?
As for Percy, sad little Percy (I'm sorry he has to go through life named Percy, for that matter), I simply don't think you have enough of a a single oar damp (much less both oars in the water), for me to be able to simplify things enough for you to understand them.
Iraq was a terrorism-supporting state before we invaded, supporting four terrorist groups and four major terrorism figures in addition to the quite real terrorism supported by Saddam's official government branches. Musab al-Zarqawi, now-dead leader of al Qaeda in Iraq, established himself in 2001, two years prior to our invasion. You contention that terrorists were not active in Iraq prior to our invasion is disingenuous, as would be any attempt to say that any one terrorist group is any more important than another anti-American terrorist group. They all want us dead, and we'll have to dead with all of them at some point.
Quite frankly, you are staggeringly ignorant if you think acting as we are not at war with Iran will make the fact that they are killing our soldiers disappear. You're like someone being molested denying that the assaults ever happened, instead of taking steps to stop the assaults.
Sami, you, and I suspect most liberals here completely misunderstand what I've stated are my goals here, perhaps because you haven't read the linked posted. Fair enough; I'll make it simple.
The initial military strikes are to cripple Iran's ability to threaten Persian Gulf Shipping. Considering the state of their fleet. that is relatively easy. Once their offensive capability to attack shipping has removed their ability to blackmail the rest of the world, we simply impose a blockade on any ships attempt to bring refined fuels into Iran, which we could quite easily do. We aren't trying to "win a war from the air." We're simply reducing their ability to threaten civilian shipping but sinking a mostly obsolete Navy. Our "war" would be a blockade, not a war. Against this, Iran has very little in the way of defense.
Josh, Iran's refineries are not for export, but for internal consumption. Destroying them would not affect the price of gas elsewhere one cent, and removing the threat Iran has had dangling over Persian Gulf shipping might even cause prices to drop. Nor do I need to remind you that sending shaped charge IEDs into Iraq to be used against U.S forces is already an act of war, as is their Revolutionary Guards fighting us as part of al-Sadr's militia.
As for You NYNick, you've proven on this and other threads that are simply unable to comprehend what I say, without reformulating them in your head first into something else. You are exceedingly dense, and seem to think all conflicts have to involve a massive occupation to achieve some sort of optimal resolution. What I propose is a naval blockade of fuels to Iran, not an invasion, not an occupation. Please try to address what I say, not what it gets twisted into in the tiny recesses of your mind.
Larrie, you honestly think that somehow the 9/11 plot starred during Bush 41's administration, went on vacation during the Clinton years, and then came back only when a Republicans was re-elected? I'm honest in my partisanship, yours is patently deranged.
This following charge, BTW, is completely false:
Finally, if you think that CY and the others here DON'T want to take NK, Yemen, etc. down in short order, you're kidding yourself.
North Korea is kind of a self-isolating nutcase factory, isn't it? I've never advocated an invasion of the Norks. you're just flatly wrong here. I've also never advocated taking down Yemen (in fact, I've rarely mentioned Yemen at all, for any reason).
The difference between Iran and these Syria and these other nations is simple: Iran is an admitted state sponsor of terrorism, primarily through Hezbollah, which, the NY Times confirms today, is now threatening all three democracies in the Middle East (Israel, Lebanon, Iraq). It really is quite simple: if you force Iran via an economic blockade, to stop sponsoring terrorism, then you've contributed towards creating more a stable democratic situation in each of these nations.
I don't think anyone credible will dispute that Iran is the most powerful engine of state-sponsored terrorism today. Kill the sponsorship through the threat of severe economic violence, ant it could save thousands of lives, which beat the living Hell out of a cut and run redeployment plan favored by liberals that will only contribute to thousands of more deaths in Iraq, Israel, Lebanon, Darfur, and elsewhere, while simply prolonging the war and extending the total number of casualties.
I look to today’s Left, and I see the Faces of Neville Chamberlain and Joseph Kennedy—less anti-Semitic—perhaps, but every bit as much in denial, and every bit as much to blame for any coming genocides borne of appeasement and inaction.
You would negotiate with the wolf to be eaten last; I seek to see him starved.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at November 28, 2006 04:36 PM (g5Nba)
28
The Iraq War is lost.
Over.
Finished.
The only Right(wing) thing to do now is "support the troops" and send more of them to die in the meatgrinder.
Posted by: Robert at November 28, 2006 04:50 PM (VTtVl)
29
libp and KC,
The problem here is that you don't see my whole message. Iran has been in our political and economic eyes and interests since WWII. The Shah - Reza Pahlavi, was installed in power by the US and Great Britain because the Shah's father was pro-Nazi.
It goes further than that. Based on the nationalization of the Iranian oil industry, Truman had plans drawn up to stage a coup against Mossadegh who had become Prime Minister. The plans were sat on until Eisenhower became President. The PM and the Shah were at odds with each other and the PM asked the Shah to step down. He did not and formally dismissed the PM. Mossadegh refused to go and there were riots in the streets, eventually ending with the Shah's forces arresting the PM.
The Shah was the principle power in the ME until islamic fundamentalists started attacking him on his ties to Israel, US, and his stance on women's rights. He was forced to leave the country in 1979. Carter was President and the Iranian Hostage Crisis took over the news. An act of war against the US, with a weak (failed) response from Jimmy.
Now, Kohmeni and Hussein did not like each other. Quickly after the Shah was thrown out of power, the border skirmishes started. Hussein kept saying that he did not want to engage the Iranians in war, but secretly planned to take over a large section of Iran - Khuzestan. He did that, with US support in 1980 (again during the Carter administration). Some speculate that the support by the US was in retaliation for the hostage crisis.
Remember that the US gave arms and support to the Shah, and then to Iraq after the Shah was deposed. The idea was to get even, and to stop the spread of the brand of islamic fundamentalism that Iran supported.
During the Iran-Iraq (1980 - 1988 covering Carter and Reagan administrations) war was one of the first uses of WMD against armed forces and civilians by Iraq - chemical weapons. In fact - March 16, 1988 - the Kurdish town of Halabja was attacked using a mix of mustard gas and nerve agents. Killed - 5,000. Maimed and disfigured - 10,000 more. And the news says that one day last week was the bloodiest day in Iraq ever. What nonsense.
As Iraq grew in stature, so did Hussein's meglomania. Which leads us into Bush I and Clinton administrations. After Iraq invaded Kuwait, we used diplomatic means, which did not work, to force Hussein to leave. Then we used force, which did. But we did not finish the job. That was mostly because nobody knew what to do afterwards - with the continuous history of unease between Shia, Sunni, and Kurd, it was feared that the whole country would disintegrate. It was hoped that if we left Hussein in power, we could eventually turn his own country's opinion against him and he would be overthrown, while still maintaining some political stability within (which he enforced through brutality - killing hundreds of thousands of his own people because they had the temerity to speak out against his regime).
In the Clinton years we tried diplomacy with Hussein - remember all the UN resolutions against Iraq and the way Hussein openly thumbed his nose at the rest of the world? Clinton bombed Iraq in 1988 (December - Operation Desert Fox)for 4 days because of Iraq's failure to comply with UN resolutions and with the stated goal of degrading Hussein's ability to produce WMD.
Maddy Albright said:
I don't think we're pretending we can everything, so this is - I think - we are being very honest about what our ability is. We are lessening, degrading his ability to use this. The weapons of mass destruction are the threat of the future. I think the president explained very clearly to the American people that this is the threat of the 21st century.
And Kissinger, at that time, said:
It doesn't make any significant difference because in six months to a year they will be back to where they are nd we cannot keep repeating these attacks...At the end of the day what will be decisive is what the situation in the Middle East will be tow to three years from now. If Saddam is still there, if he's rearming, if the sanctions are lifted, we will have lost, no matter what spin we put on it.
Remember that on October 31, 1988, Clinton signed the Iraq Liberation Act of 1988, which said "It should be the policy of the United States to support efforts to remove the regime headed by Saddam Hussein from power in Iraq and to promote the emergence of a democratic government to replace that regime."
Then we get to Bush II. He took action. And now, all you can say is that he was responsible for the whole mess. And there is no doubt it is a mess, but maybe not as big as people have been led to believe - I dare you to show me where I said it was not.
My point today, and for many, many months (that is for you KC) is that this situation did not develop overnight. It has grown over the years with many twists and turns in US policy from both sides of the aisle. You tried to give me a history lesson. I just schooled you. Try to pay attention.
Posted by: Specter at November 28, 2006 04:55 PM (ybfXM)
30
CY,
You sir are an idiot if you think that your plan has a remote chance of being implemented. It has even less chance of succeeding. But it's a fools game to argue with you about it. It's not going to happen. By all means, continue with your delusional rants. Wrap yourself in the blood stained cloth of those brave people in our military who have to carry out the stupidity of others. Call yourself a patriot for your unwavering devotion to the cause but when it's all said and done, I will be right and you will be wrong. Just like the last time and the time before that. You advocated invading Iraq and suggested that anyone who disagreed was either a traitor or a moron. I argued that it would make Iran stronger and ultimately more lethal. You said stay the course, Democrats were weak cowards who cannot be trusted to keep us safe. Now, you look for a magical solution to Iraq from these same Democrats, expecting them to somehow fix the mess your side created. And when that expectation isn't met, you will whine about how badly Democrats messed up your plans for world domination. What a sad and lonely existence it must be for you. You sir, have my pity. I wouldn't wish your kind of ignorance on my worst enemy.
Posted by: NYNick at November 28, 2006 05:04 PM (vgzEN)
31
Heh...but I already know your answer to all that. Ignore history, blame Bush for everything, and change the goal posts quickly. Idyuts. Carter and Clinton had nothing to do with today's mess...yeah right. They ALL DID. It's not a snapshot in time - it is time itself - it flows forward.
So, now admitting as I have that both sides are at fault (and remember your side did vote for this war - and don't give me any of that misled crap or I'll have to pull out their floor speeches again). So now how is the "New Direction" going to handle it? Cmon guyz - the onus is on you now - you promised to save all of us. So What's the PLAN? Got one yet?
Posted by: Specter at November 28, 2006 05:06 PM (ybfXM)
32
Nick,
Read my long post above. Then come back and tell me again how "we" created the mess. Don't be such a maroon.
Posted by: Specter at November 28, 2006 05:08 PM (ybfXM)
33
Bleacher,
I think you should get yourself some help. Seriously. You're way to angry. Try and relax. Take a walk in the woods. Breathe the fresh air.
Think about why you're so angry at the left. I bet it has more to do with your failures than you might think...
Posted by: NYNick at November 28, 2006 05:12 PM (vgzEN)
34
specter...
the post you seem to be responding to was censored, so i'll have to respond from memory.
obl declared war on us. yup - not iraq - obl. no conflation please...they were not the same problem until we made them the same. clinton endorsed regime change that sent us there? while clinton did endorse regime change only, bush attacked and occupied iraq. no one else. you seem to be saying bush took the only he had open to him. bush took the way neo-cons told him to and they were flat out wrong.
democrats ran on a platform that bush foreign policy was wrong, incompetent, and congress had failed to provide oversight. bush is still commander in chief...this war was his choice and no election will change that.
since the democrats took over rumsfeld is gone. that's a major step. stay the course is gone. that's a major step. there are alternative courses of action being considered. that's a major step.
bush has had three years to f' this up beyond all recognition...and you want the democrats to fix it over night. thinking like that is what got us here in the first place.
Posted by: jay k. at November 28, 2006 05:16 PM (yu9pS)
35
Specter,
If you read my posts, I do not argue with shared responsibility for the rise of terrorism. I post almost exclusively about the war in Iraq. Iraq was not invaded and occupied by anyone other than this administration.
Posted by: NYNick at November 28, 2006 05:17 PM (vgzEN)
36
hey specter...
maybe the democrats will take a page from the bush playbook and simply post a mission accomplished banner on a carrier in san diego. pelosi would look hot-hot-hot in a top-gun issue jumpsuit.
Posted by: jay k. at November 28, 2006 05:30 PM (yu9pS)
37
Jay k.
Mission Accomplished referred to taking down the Hussein regime. Are you attempting to say that did not happen? History...context...something you seem to have a problem with.
Posted by: Specter at November 28, 2006 05:34 PM (ybfXM)
38
Specter --
"Mission Accomplished referred to taking down the Hussein regime. Are you attempting to say that did not happen? History...context...something you seem to have a problem with."
What a load. They had no idea of what was coming, so they couldn't be referring to it. Anyway W's embarassed by it now:
http://www.museumofhoaxes.com/hoax/weblog/comments/4460/
Why do you suppose they edited the film this way?
Posted by: Earl at November 28, 2006 05:38 PM (yXuTl)
39
Nick at Nite
I'm perfectly calm. I'm not angry...just disgusted. The pernicious left thinks there are no mirrors in their fragile glass houses.
The President, Secretary of State, National Security Advisor, Secretary of Defense ALL said that Iraq was a grave danger, Saddam was a threat to the US, Israel and the world at large, believed that he was capable of exporting death and destruction around the world.
Yet, you say they are all liars, I presume.
By the way, if you want the quotes...I can give them to you.
From...President Clinton, Secretary Albright, Sandy Berger, William Cohen. Do you want them? You said you responded to logic and reason.
Or is it simply not convenient for you and the other lemmings to face facts? After all, you all know your World Populist playbooks by heart.
Do you guys blow a fuse or something if you have to think for yourselves...or do your handlers have extra fuses?
Posted by: cfbleachers at November 28, 2006 05:42 PM (V56h2)
40
I wonder who said this? Another hate America first pinko no doubt:
“‘Stay the course’ is gone. We’re going to try and devise some new strategies, hopefully with the President’s concurrence. Our soldiers, sailors and airmen should not be in there, risking their lives, losing their lives to stop a Civil War.”
--John Warner R Virginia, Chairman Senate Armed Services Committee
Whoops. I'm sure sorry about Clown World. But, as I mentioned before, the jig's up now, boys.
Posted by: Earl at November 28, 2006 05:42 PM (yXuTl)
41
cfbleachers --
"The President, Secretary of State, National Security Advisor, Secretary of Defense ALL said that Iraq was a grave danger, Saddam was a threat to the US, Israel and the world at large, believed that he was capable of exporting death and destruction around the world."
Of course they did you oaf, and nobody in their right mind denies it. The problem is not whether they believed it, the problem is that they were wrong and screwed up horribly. Iraq is busted and nobody knows what to do. It's cute how W blames Tenet and Blair and everybody else, but he's the president, it's his fault.
Posted by: Earl at November 28, 2006 05:51 PM (yXuTl)
42
So...let's see NYNick - no other options were ever tried. Hmmmm.....we just saddled up and attacked. No attempts were made right? Didn't Clinton attack - commit and act of war - against Iraq? Could that be...wait for it...Operation Desert Fox?
I agree that our planning for post-war Iraq was ... very poor. But then again, how many of the Senators that voted for AUMF suggested that at the beginning? Not one. Did anyone plan for Iran to sponsor terrorists into Iraq? Terrorists from Syria? From Lebanon? I suppose in the realm of "What-ifs" it could have been brought up. But really, can you plan for every single contingency? Or do you just state your strategic goals and then adjust tactics as needed? It appears that not enough adjustments were made.
The big question that underlies all of this is when do you get tired of the bully trying to push you around and hit back? It's that simple. For 12 years Hussein ignored everybody else in the world - did what he wanted. 12 years. And he was given many, many diplomatic opportunities to cooperate. When do you actually take action so you don't look like an empty-threat? And once you do, you can't just take it back. You keep going until the teachers pull you apart or somebody is standing over the bloody-nosed opponent. Simple.
BTW jay k.- the Dem platform was not foreign policy - it was we will get us out of Iraq. Don't change the goal posts again.
Leftists et al. - the "Stay the Course" quote has about run out of steam. Give me one link where Bush said that. Just one. Bet ya can't.
Posted by: Specter at November 28, 2006 05:51 PM (ybfXM)
43
Crusty-the-Earl,
Did you ever notice that I am the only one who responds to you. That should tell you a lot little boy.
[IGNOREON target=EARL;&AKA=Crusty-the-Earl]
Posted by: Specter at November 28, 2006 05:56 PM (ybfXM)
44
I will defend to my last drawn breath, the right for anyone to engage in principled dissent. What I can't stand...is studied sedition disguised as dissent. If you hate the country you live in, if you despise all that she stands for...then stand up and say that you are an enemy of state...don't hide behind the pretense that you are FOR America...just against all that she is and all that she has been and all that she stands for and against.
Posted by cfbleachers at November 28, 2006 04:31 PM
That's just nuts, you know that don't you?
Nobody in the United States hates America so much that they want to see it destroyed by outside forces.
However there are very powerful and unprincipled people on the political right in America who have financed a large media propaganda machine to encourage you to think that way.
Sad.
I always thought that America's cold war victory came at a cost. No War is won without a cost. The cost was the mental dimentia of the political right in America from noble principles to dishonest ideology.
http://www.amconmag.com/2006/2006_11_20/cover.html
Posted by: Sceptic at November 28, 2006 05:57 PM (L0dY/)
45
Crusty,
Did you actually read CFBleacher's post? You said:
Of course they did you oaf, and nobody in their right mind denies it. The problem is not whether they believed it, the problem is that they were wrong and screwed up horribly.
But of course you realize that he was talking about:
President Clinton, Secretary Albright, Sandy Berger, William Cohen. Do you want them? You said you responded to logic and reason.
You just claimed that those folks screwed up horribly. Gawwwwd...what a maroon.
Posted by: Specter at November 28, 2006 06:04 PM (ybfXM)
46
Specter -- "Did you ever notice that I am the only one who responds to you. That should tell you a lot little boy."
It tells me that of all the denizens of Clown World you are the most shameless and simple-minded. Is that what you meant?
Seriously, why did the White House edit that video? I'm burning with curiosity to get the Clown World take on this, and who better to give it to me, friend?
Posted by: Earl at November 28, 2006 06:05 PM (yXuTl)
47
Again in Wichita, November 17, Clinton said that what happens in Iraq "matters to you, to your children and to the future, because this is a challenge we must face not just in Iraq but throughout the world. We must not allow the 21st century to go forward under a cloud of fear that terrorists, organized criminals, drug traffickers will terrorize people with chemical and biological weapons the way the nuclear threat hung over the heads of the whole world through the last half of this century. That is what is at issue."
On February 17, President Clinton spoke on the steps of the Pentagon. The president declared that the great danger confronting the U.S. and its allies was the "threat Iraq poses now-a rogue state with weapons of mass destruction, ready to use them or provide them to terrorists, drug traffickers, or organized criminals who travel the world among us unnoticed." Before the Gulf War of 1991, he noted, "Saddam had built up a terrible arsenal, and he had used it. Not once, but many times in a decade-long war with Iran, he used chemical weapons against combatants, against civilians, against a foreign adversary and even against his own people.
"Now, let's imagine the future. What if he fails to comply and we fail to act, or we take some ambiguous third route, which gives him yet more opportunities to develop this program of weapons of mass destruction and continue to press for the release of the sanctions and continue to ignore the solemn commitments that he made? Well, he will conclude that the international community has lost its will. He will then conclude that he can go right on and do more to rebuild an arsenal of devastating destruction. And some day, some way, I guarantee you he'll use the arsenal.
The "record will show that Saddam Hussein has produced weapons of mass destruction," Albright stated, "which he's clearly not collecting for his own personal pleasure, but in order to use." She continued: "Iraq is a long way from [here], but what happens there matters a great deal here. For the risks that the leaders of a rogue state will use nuclear, chemical or biological weapons against us or our allies is the greatest security threat we face."
At Tennessee State on February 19, Albright told the crowd that the world has not "seen, except maybe since Hitler, somebody who is quite as evil as Saddam Hussein." In answering a question, she sketched some of the "worse" case scenarios should Saddam "break out of the box that we kept him in."
One "scenario is that he could in fact somehow use his weapons of mass destruction."
"Another scenario is that he could kind of become the salesman for weapons of mass destruction -- that he could be the place that people come and get more weapons."
One of the lessons of history, Albright continued, is that "if you don't stop a horrific dictator before he gets started too far -- that he can do untold damage." "If the world had been firmer with Hitler earlier," said Albright, "then chances are that we might not have needed to send Americans to Europe during the Second World War."
On May 22, 1998, President Clinton delivered a speech reminiscent of the comments he made on February 17 at the Pentagon.
The president warned Annapolis graduates that our enemies "may deploy compact and relatively cheap weapons of mass destruction - not just nuclear, but also chemical or biological, to use disease as a weapon of war. Sometimes the terrorists and criminals act alone. But increasingly, they are interconnected, and sometimes supported by hostile countries." The U.S. will work to "prevent the spread and use of biological weapons and to protect our people in the event these terrible weapons are ever unleashed by a rogue state or terrorist group or an international criminal organization." This protection will include "creating stockpiles of medicines and vaccines to protect our civilian population against the kind of biological agents our adversaries are most likely to obtain or develop."
On October 31, 1998, Iraq ceased all cooperation with UNSCOM.37 The same day President Clinton signed the Iraq Liberation Act, which declared that "
t should be the policy of the United States to support efforts to remove the regime headed by Saddam Hussein from power in Iraq and to promote the emergence of a democratic government to replace that regime."38 In signing the Act, the President stated that the U.S. "looks forward to a democratically supported regime that would permit us to enter into a dialogue leading to the reintegration of Iraq into normal international life"
On December 8, National Security Advisor Berger delivered an address at Stanford University on U.S. policy on Iraq. He stated:
"As long as Saddam remains in power and in confrontation with the world, the positive evolution we and so many would like to see in the Middle East is less likely to occur. His Iraq remains a source of potential conflict in the region, a source of inspiration for those who equate violence with power and compromise with surrender, a source of uncertainty for those who would like to see a stable region in which to invest.
"Change inside Iraq is necessary not least because it would help free the Middle East from its preoccupation with security and struggle and survival, and make it easier for its people to focus their energies on commerce and cooperation.
"For the last eight years, American policy toward Iraq has been based on the tangible threat Saddam poses to our security. That threat is clear. Saddam's history of aggression, and his recent record of deception and defiance, leave no doubt that he would resume his drive for regional domination if he had the chance. Year after year, in conflict after conflict, Saddam has proven that he seeks weapons, including weapons of mass destruction, in order to use them."
"We will continue to contain the threat Iraq poses to its region and the world. But for all the reasons I have mentioned, President Clinton has said that over the long-term, the best way to address the challenge Iraq poses is 'through a government in Baghdad - a new government - that is committed to represent and respect its people, not repress them; that is committed to peace in the region.' Our policy toward Iraq today is to contain Saddam, but also to oppose him."
On December 16, 1998, President Clinton launched Operation Desert Fox, a four-day missile and bombing attack on Iraq. "I acted quickly because, as my military advisors stressed, the longer we waited, the more time Saddam would have to disburse his forces and protect his arsenal," Clinton explained in his December 19 radio address to the nation. "Our mission is clear: to degrade Saddam's capacity to develop and deliver weapons of mass destruction."43 (It should be noted that on July 27, 2003 President Clinton assessed the effectiveness of Desert Fox. He stated: "When I left office, there was a substantial amount of biological and chemical material unaccounted for. That is, at the end of the first Gulf War, we knew what he had. We knew what was destroyed in all the inspection processes and that was a lot. And then we bombed with the British for four days in 1998. We might have gotten it all; we might have gotten half of it; we might have gotten none of it. But we didn't know." )44
Secretary Albright held a briefing on Desert Fox and was asked how she would respond to those who say that unlike the 1991 Gulf War this campaign "looks like mostly an Anglo-American mission." She answered:
"We are now dealing with a threat, I think, that is probably harder for some to understand because it is a threat of the future, rather than a present threat, or a present act such as a border crossing, a border aggression. And here, as the president described in his statement yesterday, we are concerned about the threat posed by Saddam Hussein's ability to have, develop, deploy weapons of mass destruction and the threat that that poses to the neighbors, to the stability of the Middle East, and therefore, ultimately to ourselves.45
Secretary Cohen replied much the same way to comments made in March of 1998 by Senator Campbell of Colorado, who chided the administration for not keeping the "coalition together" during an Appropriations Committee hearing. Cohen responded:
And that's one of the reasons why you haven't seen the kind of solidarity that we had before; much harder when the case is the threat of weapons of mass destruction versus Saddam Hussein setting off 600 oil wells in the field of Kuwait and seeing that kind of threat, which is real and tangible, as opposed to one which might take place some time in the future, as far as the use of his chemical and biologicals.
Oh, I guess I forgot....only right wing, warmongering, bloodthirsty neo-cons...could have possibly believed that Iraq was a threat worth confronting. They MUST be lying. After all, the leftists tell us so. Let's cut and run...the cowards among us make such great leaders. They look so sexy when they tremble.
Posted by: cfbleachers at November 28, 2006 06:13 PM (V56h2)
48
cf,
Man...the temerity...confronting the left with facts and their own words. Just who do you think you are...you might give them a conniption fit...LOL
Posted by: Specter at November 28, 2006 06:17 PM (ybfXM)
49
Here's a fun new game, kids! Guess who I am!
"I have been hanging out on the internet since the days of telnet and gopher"
Ooooh! Bound to be a mensch if he used Gopher! Too bad telnet is no longer in use.
"
have participated in many forums in Usenet (under various nicks), and have now graduated to the 'blogosphere'."
So experienced! And all grown up!
"I really believe that we, as a world, have lost the ability to communicate and share ideas - especially in a written manner."
Now that is packed with content. Let's think it over. 'Really' adds a lot to the sentence. At first I wondered if he believed it or not. 'Written manner'! Fancy! To think some philistines say 'writing'. It doesn't sound nearly so erudite. How do you communicate and idea that you don't share or vice versa? Very intriguing.
The answer? Our very own Specter! Now you know why his communication and sharing of ideas is so effective -- his secret is his writing manner. Hats off to Specter! Let's all emulate him.
Posted by: Earl at November 28, 2006 06:18 PM (yXuTl)
50
cfbleachers -- no way am I going to read that slab of palaver. The debacle in Iraq is W's fault. End of story.
"They look so sexy when they tremble."
Oh man do you have issues. You're unsavory even by Clown World standards.
Posted by: Earl at November 28, 2006 06:23 PM (yXuTl)
51
15% of the oil flowing out of the Persian Gulf comes from Iran and you think military strikes won't change the price of oil at all? It doesn't matter what the refineries are used for, there will be a ripple effect on the cost of oil, but I was mentioning that as a positive, not a negative, I just don't think the president is willing to expend the political capital necessary to accomplish such a strike.
And currently we are fighting a war by proxy with Iran and do not have the military capapability handle an open war with Iran as well as pacify Afghanistan and Iraq, which was my main point and the one you ignored. Unless you support Rangel in his quixotic effort to bring back the draft, which I think we can all agree is ridiculous.
Posted by: Josh at November 28, 2006 06:26 PM (yUgZm)
52
Specter,
I'm not even going to acknowledge the majority of your purported history lesson of a post, because it is for the most part skewed and guilty of lie by omission. If you want, we'll take up the history of the middle east and the effects of western influence on another thread. Schooled? Please. Who do you think you're talking to?
Let me focus on this:
"Then we get to Bush II. He took action. And now, all you can say is that he was responsible for the whole mess. And there is no doubt it is a mess, but maybe not as big as people have been led to believe ...
Then why did the "adults" take this course of action when the following quote was said by his own Veep, at a time that Iraq DID have WMDs and the intent to use them?
Cheney - "Once you get to Baghdad, it’s not clear what you do with it. It’s not clear what kind of government you put in place of the one that’s currently there now. Is it going to be a Shia regime, a Sunni regime, a Kurdish regime? Or one that tilts toward the Baathists, or one that tilts toward Islamic fundamentalists? How much credibility is that going to have if it’s set up by the American military there? How long does the United States military have to stay there to protect the people that sign on for that government, and what happens once we leave?"
So what changed? Oh, I'm sorry - I forgot. 9/11. How stupid of me. But in order to start a war with Iraq after 9/11 Bush had to forget two things:
1. The inconvenient fact that Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11, and
2. that you just don't practice, unprovoked "preventive" war on nations that, no matter how miniscule the threat (and we're talking sub atomic here), harbor some kind of ill-will toward the U.S - if for no other reason than that the very perception of the world at large will be that the U.S. is playing bully and flailing around blindly after having been attacked. As Kissinger said: "Afghanistan wasn't enough."
And tell me, minus any proof that Saddam was actively supporting terrorism against the U.S. and knowing that he had indeed dismantled his WMD programs well in advance, and with Bush being unwilling to allow the U.N. inspectors to finish their jobs, how exactly is it that Saddam was a threat to the U.S.? If you're going to revert to some sort of argument based on the no fly zones, then in effect you've embraced an economic argument against perpetual containment. Looking at the cost of the current effort, that one's out the window too. Body counts? Again, out the window.
"I agree that our planning for post-war Iraq was ... very poor. But then again, how many of the Senators that voted for AUMF suggested that at the beginning?"
Perhaps it is you who needs a history lesson.
1. The AUMF was based on intelligence presented to a REPUBLICAN Congress by the President and his Staff.
2. Because the UN was not so bought and sold on said phony and/or trumped up evidence, it was the duty of the prosecutors of the war to listen to the advice given to them (in fact, by the State Department ) on the possibilities of stabilizing a post-Saddam Iraq.
You can put your fingers in your ears and scream and shout all you want, but facts are facts. Bush and his staff IGNORED and DENIGRATED advice and advisors telling them anything that they didn't want to hear, and resisted any and all oversight by a REPUBLICAN Congress that couldn't have cared less anyway.
So yes. Bush and those of you who voted for him, defended him, and are now apologizing for him in the form of the blame game are all responsible. The question is, then, Specter, WHERE WERE ALL OF YOU besides being busy defending the war, moaning about the lack of "good news" being reported from Iraq, and turning your attention to the next war when we couldn't even win this one?
Finally, since you're all so concerned with what we're going to do there now (as if anyone should be responsible for cleaning up the mess that the Republicans allowed Bush to create), we've got a few years too, don't we?
In the mean time, why don't you concern yourself with fantasy attack scenarios that accomplish exactly what you think they will because, well...you believe enough that they will.
Ignore that:
1. Thanks to Bush, we're largely out of political capital with the rest of the world - so any possible diplomatic solution is already stunted and handcuffed to plenty of other unsavory and expensive situations - including a far more devastating financial impact on us and our allies than on Iran or any imagined target.
2. The implications of anything other than the perfect scenario involving any real military attacks on Iran and/or Syria range from terrible (the economic devastation resulting from the effects on the world oil market) to the apocalyptic (involvement of Russia and the REAL World War III).
3. That ground troops WILL have to be involved, and we don't have the troops to do it much less continue the other losing battles.
4. That the cabal of idiots at the helm in the White House right now has proven itself time and time again incompetent of waging any effective war, much less a third simultaneous one.
and...
5. That radical Islam and its terrorist offshoots are never going to be defeated by means of bombing Muslim countries and that doing so will only create more disenfranchisement among the people who will be more likely to flee and end up in western nations bringing all the problems they've brought to Europe.
But maybe I'm not the expert in foreign policy and military strategy that you people are.
Posted by: KC at November 28, 2006 06:35 PM (idmOY)
53
That is hilarious, cfb. You can quote Clinton and his staff until the cows come home. They didn't embark on any regime change exercises that I can remember though.
So the PNAC crowd got to them? Who'd been in charge of all the intelligence agencies for the prior 20 years, anyway?
Posted by: KC at November 28, 2006 06:42 PM (idmOY)
54
"Oh, I guess I forgot....only right wing, warmongering, bloodthirsty neo-cons...could have possibly believed that Iraq was a threat worth confronting. They MUST be lying. After all, the leftists tell us so. Let's cut and run...the cowards among us make such great leaders. They look so sexy when they tremble."
Again, the difference lies in the actions. And like I said - PNAC.
But just for the record - are you saying you supported Clinton, and that he should have pursued unilateral regime change in Iraq via military force?
Then you also must believe, contrary to Dick Cheney did at the time, that we should have toppled Saddam during the GWI?
Instead all GHWB did was leave the Kurds hanging out to dry, and be massacred after his administration implicitly (if not overtly - we can't prove it) gave Saddam the green light to invade Kuwait.
Posted by: KC at November 28, 2006 06:47 PM (idmOY)
55
Leaving the Kurds to hang out to dry...was a despicable act.
Yes, I supported Clinton...in every international endeavor. I thought he was a brilliant communicator and a skilled politician. I thought the impeachment hearings were a farce and a blight on the country.
I only wish he had been stronger...he wanted to prosecute each exercise from 30,000 feet...I think...to pander to his base on the left.
Hillary should have learned the lesson (as did a very good man, Joe Lieberman) that you don't stick with your principles against the pernicious anti-establishment left. It will cost you. They will turn on you.
And I don't find it "hilarious" that these quotes came from the President, The Secretary of State, the Secretary of Defense and the National Security Advisor. I find it hilarious that the leftists have nothing of substance in response.
"no way am I going to read that slab of palaver. The debacle in Iraq is W's fault. End of story."
"It is, it is, it is, it is, it is....and if you show me any more facts I'm going to throw myself on the ground and kick and scream and cry and hold my breath until I turn blue. Take it back, take it back, take it back.
It's aw dat bad, bad, bad, man's fawt, an' you won' make me beweeve anyding else!!!!"
LOL. Earl, time for a diaper change. And go stand in the corner and have a time out. LOL
"Oh man do you have issues. You're unsavory even by Clown World standards."
Sucks to be you, huh? You are used to getting softballs tossed to you by the Ministry of Media and getting the choir of World Populists to sing your rote memorized refrains. A little bit tougher when someone hits you with facts from your own side, eh, Little Earl?
That's ok. When you grow up...you may grow out of your peachfuzz thinking and get to sit at the adult table.
Posted by: cfbleachers at November 28, 2006 06:59 PM (V56h2)
56
"Yes, I supported Clinton...in every international endeavor. I thought he was a brilliant communicator and a skilled politician. I thought the impeachment hearings were a farce and a blight on the country."
I agree.
"I only wish he had been stronger...he wanted to prosecute each exercise from 30,000 feet...I think...to pander to his base on the left."
And I think that Clinton, inclusive of all the rhetoric about Iraq, understood that not every war that "needs to be fought" can realistically be fought in the way that it "needs to be fought". Bush certainly didn't.
"I only wish he had been stronger...he wanted to prosecute each exercise from 30,000 feet...I think...to pander to his base on the left."
I think what he did mostly worked in the Balkans. Sorry. Sure didn't lose too many people. And containment in the hopes of implementing regime change (note no specific mention of military force), and when done properly is an infinitely more reasonable solution to Saddam than what's happened.
"And I don't find it "hilarious" that these quotes came from the President, The Secretary of State, the Secretary of Defense and the National Security Advisor. I find it hilarious that the leftists have nothing of substance in response."
And here's where your paranoid, uneducated, fantasmagorical fear of the shadowy "left" rears its ugly head. I offered my response - in several posts, actually. PNAC, whose members largely controlled the intel community in D.C. heavily influenced a lot of people back then. Heck, they should have known - they also were some of the same people SUPPLYING Saddam with the weapons, but a lot of their later "intelligence" ended up being a bunch of b.s. designed to achieve a goal. Clinton and his staff were victims to much of it.
What do those on the "right" or "wingers" have to say about these quotes, 'specially you cfb -
Verbatim quotes from when Clinton was committing troops to Bosnia:
"You can support the troops but not the president."
---Rep Tom Delay (R-TX)
"Well, I just think it's a bad idea. What's going to happen is they're going to be over there for 10, 15, maybe 20 years."
---Joe Scarborough (R-FL)
"Explain to the mothers and fathers of American servicemen that may come home in body bags why their son or daughter have to give up their life?"
---Sean Hannity, Fox News, 4/6/99
"[The] President . . . is once again releasing American military might on a foreign country with an ill-defined objective and no exit strategy. He has yet to tell the Congress how much this operation will cost. And he has not informed our nation's armed forces about how long they will be away from home. These strikes do not make for a sound foreign policy."
---Sen Rick Santorum (R-PA)
"American foreign policy is now one huge big mystery. Simply put, the administration is trying to lead the world with a feel-good foreign policy."
---Rep Tom Delay (R-TX)
"If we are going to commit American troops, we must be certain the y have a clear mission, an achievable goal and an exit strategy."
---Karen Hughes, speaking on behalf of George W Bush
"I had doubts about the bombing campaign from the beginning . . . I didn't think we had done enough in the diplomatic area."
---Senator Trent Lott (R-MS)
"I cannot support a failed foreign policy. History teaches us that it is often easier to make war than peace. This administration is just learning that lesson right now. The President began this mission with very vague objectives and lots of unanswered questions. A month later, these questions are still unanswered. There are no clarified rules of engagement. There is no timetable. There is no legitimate definition of victory. There is no contingency plan for mission creep. There is no clear funding program. There is no agenda to bolster our over-extended military. There is no explanation defining what vital national interests are at stake. There was no strategic plan for war when the President started this thing, and there still is no plan today"
-Rep Tom Delay (R-TX)
"Victory means exit strategy, and it's important for the President to explain to us what the exit strategy is."
-Governor George W Bush (R-TX)
Guess that "leftist base" was Clinton's downfall in your eyes, eh?
Posted by: KC at November 28, 2006 07:16 PM (idmOY)
57
Hey! You folks that can 'plan for exit strategies and the aftermaths of wars' are there any horses running tomorrow?
Track, race and number(s), please.
Lotto numbers for Texas would also be appreciated.
Date and numbers.
Thanks.
Posted by: Eg at November 28, 2006 07:29 PM (ZNAq7)
58
CY said:
>>Sami, you, and I suspect most liberals here completely misunderstand what I've stated are my goals here, perhaps because you haven't read the linked posted. ...I'll make it simple.
Thanks for the response. I don't think my politics would be defined as liberal but nobody wants to use my own preference(druid) so what the hell.
Forget all this noise about who did what to whom and when. Clinton,Reagen,Bushes I & II -- Who gives a flying flip. We are where are we are and the solution and/or disaster will come out of a process subject to comprise and posturing. It doesn't take a liberal to know we're screwed regardless of who we kissed last.
For all the talk about initial bombing taking out the refining capacity and a blockade leading to the Iranian mullahs and govt collapsing - nonsense. First - I addressed a wide spread air war because that is how America does it. I know its your plan but every fantasy has to have internal consistency and what is consistent with the US Air Force is taking out the infrastructure - massive raids by both bombers and fighters.
Second, you did not address the main problem with blockades except to say a blockade is, essentially, easy. Again, nonsense. What happens when a tanker operated by the Emirates or the Russians decides to just keep going. How much of a war do you want?
Finally, would you fall supine before a superstate because you run of gasoline? I mean you, personally. If you have all these ragheads who are so willing to die for Islam or whatever, why do you think they will kiss our ass(just like they did in Iraq) just because their state fails (your best case scenario because we are not nation building here). Would you? Would Bush? Or Cheney? Why would whats-his-name Persian?
You assume we are not facing a foe as tough, as smart or as determined as us.
Eg. I see 7-89-36-1-12 powerball 34
12-2-2006
Posted by: sami at November 28, 2006 08:27 PM (je/vI)
59
I've never read a comment by anyone that can match KC for the dumasses. Maybe he/she will wake up when the WMD (missing from Iraq) bomb goes off in the city/ town where they live. The attack on 9-11 was only to prove they could do it after the 1993 WTC attack failed. The six Islamic idiots removed from an aircraft this week were probing to see if they can still take over aircraft with items already on the plane, like the seatbelt extensions.
The only thing standing between millions of Americans and death is a president that won't bow and scrape to the enemy and their supporters (Arabs, media and dim's) in the U.S. I suspect it won't take long after Jan for restrictions to be placed on the presidents ability to protect the country and one or more massive attacks will soon follow. We won't even have to say 'told you so' those left alive will already know it.
Posted by: Scrapiron at November 28, 2006 09:46 PM (YadGF)
60
See - I told you at in my post what KC and Earl would say. I said:
Heh...but I already know your answer to all that. Ignore history, blame Bush for everything, and change the goal posts quickly. Idyuts. Carter and Clinton had nothing to do with today's mess...yeah right. They ALL DID. It's not a snapshot in time - it is time itself - it flows forward.
And - Ta Da - that's exactly what happened. I must have some of those "Comey-Fitzgerald" Mind Rays to have known that.
So KC - mind specifically pointing out how my history lesson was "skewed"? Guess not, huh. It was right on. The problem is that you can't see beyond "I Hate Bush, So No Matter What Facts Are Presented, I Will Always Say It Was His Fault, No Matter What". I presented facts - present some of your own - and not OPINION, and EMPTY RHETORIC which you seem to specialize in.
And Crusty - I see you could not contend with the fact that I pointed out, yet again, how noodle-brained you are. You called your own party leaders stupid because you didn't bother to read, or actually understand (or maybe it could be that you just plain cannot comprehend), what cf posted. So instead of contending with it with actual facts (which I have asked you for over and over again - and you haven't done), you went to my blog and copied some of my bio and tried to use is in a "I can't say anything so I will attack and call names" manner. Pretty typical for a vacuum-between-the-ears leftist. LOL, Not laughing with you Crusty - but at you. LOL
Posted by: Specter at November 28, 2006 10:15 PM (ybfXM)
61
cfbleachers: "Sucks to be you, huh? You are used to getting softballs tossed to you by the Ministry of Media and getting the choir of World Populists to sing your rote memorized refrains. A little bit tougher when someone hits you with facts from your own side, eh, Little Earl?"
You can hit me with all the facts you want from 'my side'. There in Clown World, Clinton started the war or whatever, but here on Earth it was W. There isn't the slightest iota of doubt about that. It's just his fault, deal with it. He's a disastrous president and the signature item of his presidency is a debacle.
Posted by: Earl at November 28, 2006 10:57 PM (yXuTl)
62
Specter --
"And Crusty - I see you could not contend with the fact that I pointed out, yet again, how noodle-brained you are. You called your own party leaders stupid because you didn't bother to read, or actually understand (or maybe it could be that you just plain cannot comprehend), what cf posted."
It's true, I misunderstood him. If this is the best you can come up with then perhaps you should find a new pursuit.
"So instead of contending with it with actual facts (which I have asked you for over and over again - and you haven't done)"
You have not asked me for something over and over to which I have not replied. You mean, what is my great idea for Iraq? I answered that at least twice -- there aren't any good answers. We have the wolf by the ears. That's my answer, so please shut up about it. Or do you mean some other question? If so, fire away.
Here's my question to you which you have avoided: why did the White House edit that video?
"you went to my blog and copied some of my bio and tried to use is in a 'I can't say anything so I will attack and call names' manner."
That was a 'this person is demonstrably a fool' manner. You bio is vapid. This:
"I really believe that we, as a world, have lost the ability to communicate and share ideas - especially in a written manner."
is laughable. You are a lightweight.
And, best of all, the jig's up in Clown World.
Posted by: Earl at November 28, 2006 11:08 PM (yXuTl)
63
The lesson that should be learned, but probably won't, is that we should'nt be in the business of overthrowing the leaders of Middle Eastern Countries (or any other Country).
Our foreign policies of the past fifty years or so, have had dire repurcussions that we are seeing today. We would never tolerate another Country interfering in our business, but for some strange reason, we think we have the right to interfere in the business of anyone we please.
Until America decides that we can't do what we want, when we want, and how we want, we will be hated and attacked.
Posted by: AkaDad at November 29, 2006 12:50 AM (1RcP8)
64
AkaDad -- all my life I've heard that nation building was the worst of frothy liberalism, and that liberals love spending and big government. I guess I'm the conservative around here.
Jig's up, boys.
Posted by: Earl at November 29, 2006 01:09 AM (yXuTl)
65
"And here's where your paranoid, uneducated, fantasmagorical fear of the shadowy "left" rears its ugly head."
Just a guess...but, again...I'd be happy to match my "uneducated" background against yours...anytime.
I have no "fear" of the "shadowy" left...I think mostly they are puerile mental lightweights who get their information from the Ministry of Media and can't think their way out of a paper bag.
The problem is, cattle are cattle. Lazy, stupid, incapable of original thought.
The left undermines America with their mendacity. The Ministry of Media distorts the truth and the bovine masses simply moo back what they are told and when they are told. There are very few traditional "liberals" remaining. I could at least respect that. What's left...are the mindless lemmings and moo-cows, herded for their useful idiocy by the enemies of state.
You weaken morale of the country, our troops in harm's way and embolden the fanatics who want to kill us. (and have back when Democrats were in office...if you have an ounce of historical integrity, which I doubt)
You slander America, and are faux patriots. Mostly white...you essentially are what the black community would call Uncle Toms. White Uncle Toms are people who bow and scrape for the enemy, trash your own country and countryment in order to curry favor with the enemy. You act as sychophants and supplicants for anyone who stands against America. You do the enemy's bidding.
And for that reason...the pernicious left is the greatest danger in America. You are cowards and weaklings. You won't stand up for America because your handlers will turn on you.
A man of principle (or woman) doesn't stand a chance in your midst. Ask Joe Lieberman. Hillary got a whiff of your stench as well.
You stand for nothing, you believe in nothing. You can only stand against. And what you stand against...is everything America stands for.
You aren't liberal. You aren't progressives. You aren't open minded. You aren't reflective. You are closed-minded, bigoted, unthinking, knee-jerk, mindless lemmings. And you aren't hip or chic or cool by being reflexively against your own country. You are simply despicable.
I offered my response - in several posts, actually. PNAC, whose members largely controlled the intel community in D.C. heavily influenced a lot of people back then. Heck, they should have known - they also were some of the same people SUPPLYING Saddam with the weapons, but a lot of their later "intelligence" ended up being a bunch of b.s. designed to achieve a goal. Clinton and his staff were victims to much of it.
Posted by: cfbleachers at November 29, 2006 01:15 AM (5RM9g)
66
cfbleachers -- reading between the lines of your post, you're pretty much asserting that you dance naked by the light of the full moon. Oh God I had another flashback about you getting aroused at the sight of trembly, fearful people. Let me summarize: "The right is the source of all that is wholesome and good, and the left is rotten and insidious." Such bold views are no doubt a hallmark of intelligence and discrimination.
You Clown Worlders had an impressive run. It's a shame that the jig's up.
Posted by: Earl at November 29, 2006 01:26 AM (yXuTl)
67
cfbleachers,
Who hates america?
The hippies who were 100% right about Iraq, or you--the guy who hates his fellow americans (hippies) who were right about iraq?
Posted by: Robert at November 29, 2006 01:55 AM (exUI1)
68
"I offered my response - in several posts, actually. PNAC, whose members largely controlled the intel community in D.C. heavily influenced a lot of people back then. Heck, they should have known - they also were some of the same people SUPPLYING Saddam with the weapons, but a lot of their later "intelligence" ended up being a bunch of b.s. designed to achieve a goal. Clinton and his staff were victims to much of it."
You left that as the last text in your message. I take it you have no answer.
Look forward to more disingenuous debate on future threads. Thanks.
Posted by: KC at November 29, 2006 02:56 AM (/LiVG)
69
"Just a guess...but, again...I'd be happy to match my "uneducated" background against yours...anytime."
OK, my email is mister.larrie@gmail.com.
AND - let me preface with this: It saddens me to think that Iraq may be lost. I take NO pleasure in failure there. So let's have a real discussion about it. I think about it every day...
Posted by: kc at November 29, 2006 03:08 AM (/LiVG)
70
Right Crusty,
Remember in the other thread when you called me a nitwit when I said that there is a UN mandate for troops in Iraq? Remember that oh mister-I-am-so-smart-and-you-are-a-nitwit? Remember when I posted the fact that there is a mandate, and even referred you to al-Maliki's statement and the UN resolution number? Guess what? According to this source, the al-AP, the UN mandate you say did not exist was renewed yesterday for another year. Imagine that - I had the FACTS and YOU DID NOT. Not even close Crusty.
Remember how those posts went Crusty? You tried, using words with no back-up, to state your proclamation. I used links to reputable (well...in your eyes...MSM) places to prove my point. You came back and stated (again with no proof) that you had given more facts than I did. 'Course that was pure BS. And then you made a lame attempt to link your equally lame statement that Bush was given a "dire warning that terrorists were planning to use planes as bombs" by actually posting a link to an article where what you claimed was never said. Remember how I pointed that out to you? And asked you to show me where in your "factual" link it said what you proclaimed to be fact? And you couldn't. Remember that, Crusty, or do you want me to go get the actual quotes?
Now I know what you will do - you'll come back, call me yet another name, and make another empty assertion that you are right because you are you. Whoopee - your lack of knowledge shows every time you post. You are simply a troll - nothing more - and that is all. You don't want to debate/discuss an issue. All you do is issue proclamations that you are right, no matter what. And we are supposed to bow down to that, even though you have been proved wrong over and over. Get a grip.
You fit the Rules of Disinformation to a tee.
Posted by: Specter at November 29, 2006 07:41 AM (ybfXM)
71
Wooohooo for the Democratic Leadership and the "New Direction" - Hastings is out. After all the head-butting, and internal arguing, Pelosi just lost another battle. What great minds. Just like Howie "AAAAIIIIIIYYYYYEEEEEE" Dean! You should be sooooo proud. And still no plan. tick...tock...tick....tock....
Posted by: Specter at November 29, 2006 07:54 AM (ybfXM)
72
specter...
bush said stay the course something like 58 times. here's just one where it took until the third question before he said it.
http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2003/12/20031215-3.html
do you get the RNC talking points faxed directly to you or do you wait for fox news to give them to you?
Posted by: jay k. at November 29, 2006 09:10 AM (yu9pS)
73
those most responsible for continued spread of violence are not al-Qaeda,but Iran and Syria
Do you have any evidence whatsoever for this allegation, or did you just pull it out of your behind?
It certainly looks to me like neither al-Qaeda, Iran or Syria are most responsible for the violence, i.e., it's the Sunni and Shia militias.
Indeed, if we're looking for proximate cause of sectarian violence in Iraq - look no farther than George W., Dick and Rummy. There was, as far as I can tell, NO unauthorized sectarian violence in Iraq prior to our invasion thereof.
Posted by: bobdevo at November 29, 2006 09:51 AM (+J4wd)
74
Hey how about baning thid f**King clown Earl. He is so full of himself he should choke.
Posted by: chw at November 29, 2006 09:56 AM (DSeW+)
75
"reading between the lines of your post"
Perhaps that is the problem, in between the lines is nothing but empty space, try reading the words, or have your handlers read them to you.
"The right is the source of all that is wholesome and good, and the left is rotten and insidious." Such bold views are no doubt a hallmark of intelligence and discrimination."
Uh...no. The childish, pernicious, smug, pedantic, arrogant, mendacious, closed-minded, bigoted, shout you down, anti-Semitic, anti-Christian, pro-ANY enemy of America (and Israel and the West in general), World Populist, lockstep lemmings OF the left...are the greatest danger to the future of this country...and their voice...the Ministry of Media are among the worst offenders.
The isolationist, xenophobic, throw our allies to the wind, bigoted, anti-Semitic, narrow-minded, OF the RIGHT...are less effective at getting their message out...but are no more desirable...just less dangerous to our future.
"You Clown Worlders had an impressive run. It's a shame that the jig's up."
Do you seriously believe that by the center shifting to teach the Republicans a lesson...that "the jig is up"? Are you that much of a child?
As goes the center, so goes the national vote, son. I'm not impressed with what has become of the left at all. Really, they suck. And you are pretty much their poster boy. Blissfully ignorant, incapable of rational thought, inarticulate and immune to reason. You are a lemming, reading directly from the assigned playbook. Facts are foreign to you, truth is like kryptonite. You basically are a dumb frat boy, playing as if you know something about...well, anything, really. Your knowledge is less than pedestrian. It has no legs.
"Who hates america?
The hippies who were 100% right about Iraq,"
Sorry, this is mindless drivel. The "hippies" weren't 100% right about anything. And they started spouting their "knowledge" about things....BEFORE the facts were in. This is like saying the tarot cards were 100% right about your sister-in-law's pregnancy.
" or you--the guy who hates his fellow americans (hippies) who were right about iraq?"
I hate traitors. I hate liars. I hate people who root against my country and for their enemies. I hate people who root for my troops to die and for enemy troops to kill them. I hate people who distort the truth about my country to curry favor with the latest fad country du jour. I hate people who blame the Jews for being persecuted in Israel. I hate people who blame Christians as a sport. I hate people who slander this country because it makes them feel superior to their neighbors.
The "hippies" weren't right...they were just the same uninformed anti-establishment assholes they were in the 60's who have managed to infiltrate the Ministry of Media and sway easily led and equally uninformed lemmings to parrot their tripe.
Posted by: cfbleachers at November 29, 2006 10:07 AM (5RM9g)
76
Specter --
"Remember in the other thread when you called me a nitwit when I said that there is a UN mandate for troops in Iraq?"
I called you a nitwit because you think that is a good reason to watch our youth die in lost cause, namely forcing democracy at the barrel of a gun. I didn't say the mandate doesn't exist.
"Remember how those posts went Crusty? You tried, using words with no back-up, to state your proclamation."
I remember someone (Purple Avenger?) trying to point out that Iraq was actually Carter's fault or some such. Is that what you are talking about? More of your "plenty of blame to go around" thing? Oh wait, yes I do, partially. I thought the August 16 PDB "Bin Laden Determined to Strike in US" was a big deal and you didn't.
Either way you slice it though, Iraq is Bush's fault, not Carter's, not Clinton's, not John Kerry's. That's just the way it is, Specter. If you want to give me a link or two I'll discuss it, but not lots and lots of them at once, it just takes too long.
And seriously, I've asked you at least twice why the White House doctored that video, a simple question, and you just ignore it. Who's unwilling to answer the charges here?
Posted by: Earl at November 29, 2006 11:39 AM (yXuTl)
77
Hey lucifer f**k yourself your filty traitor hippie
Posted by: chw at November 29, 2006 02:30 PM (DSeW+)
78
Hey lucifer f**k yourself you filty traitor hippie
Posted by: chw at November 29, 2006 02:31 PM (DSeW+)
79
How about we eliminate their capacity to wage war and terrorism with a minimum of *American* lives lost?
Bombing their refineries, navy, and other infrastructure is a good start. Why not continue until they no longer represent a threat to us?
P.S. "Re"building their society is a red herring that we need not pick up.
Posted by: Bearster at November 29, 2006 03:57 PM (YyTqJ)
80
Earl,
As to the "nitwit" thing - here is exactly what you said:
"And believe it or not, if we leave we may actually be in violation of the UN resolution. What about that? What about the other 40 countries that are a part of our coalition, have troops there, and have lost soldiers in the war? What do we say to them?"
What UN resolution? God you're a nitwit.
That is directly from your post. Now you claim:
I didn't say the mandate doesn't exist.
Just how stupid are you? My guess is that you really are Crusty in disguise.
As for your "movie" thing - I though Bush appeared in front of the cameras and the "Mission Accomplished" in uniform - or at least a flight suit of some sort. Am I mistaken in that recollection? Somebody fill remind me. But, Crusty, if my recollection is correct, you have pointed to the wrong video because Bush is in a suit in the one you are asking about.
Posted by: Specter at November 29, 2006 07:20 PM (ybfXM)
81
specter.
I notice in your blogs you like to pick on little facts here and there to try to sound "intellectual".
Was Bush on a suit or not at the carrier? Are you for real?
You want to have a debate let's have it on .
Iraq is the subject... A bit more important than your Bush on a suit or not remark...... Or your U.N. mandate for troops in Iraq... You are talking about the troops that will be living Iraq in 2007, and our troops traped in Iraq... Those troops? - So what if the U.N. had a mandate.... Who ever listens to U.N. "mandates" anyway? You like the Ghotjaa!! game try that one with me see if you can "get me".
So for starters, tell us Mr. smart man.... How do we get out of the mess your fellow Right Wingers got us in ????
Or you like to continue to talk about Bush's wardrobe?
Posted by: gil at November 29, 2006 07:32 PM (LeY6O)
82
gil,
Another troll I see. First off - read the whole thread to get up to speed. Don't skim - read and think (are you capable of that?).
Now - if you read the whole thing, you of course can quote back to me all of the posts dealing with your empty assertion that the mess in Iraq was solely the Right Wing's fault. Care to attempt to back up that statement with facts? Or are you just going to assert that the last 60 years of involvement in the ME had nothing to do with where we are now? Are you going to assert that Clinton signing the Iraq Liberation Act of 1988, which said:
It should be the policy of the United States to support efforts to remove the regime headed by Saddam Hussein from power in Iraq and to promote the emergence of a democratic government to replace that regime.
C'mon Mr. Brains, let's see you dispute any of that with FACTS. So far - all of the trolls come in and make proclamations of their OPINIONS as if they are fact. Show me you are different. I don't think so, but then again.
As to your challenge to my last post, IF (note the BIG IF), you had read the thread, you would know where the argument with Crusty came from. But like I said, it is obvious that you could not be bothered with actually reading....LOL. Another empty headed TROLL.
Posted by: Specter at November 29, 2006 07:39 PM (ybfXM)
83
BTW gil (are you a fish?),
It's not up to me to come up with a plan on Iraq. You voted in such inspired leaders, and it is now in their hands. You voted them in on a "Hate Bush, Get Out OF Iraq" platform, now it is up to them to come up with a plan. So where is it gilly? Got one yet? 4 Weeks and counting to the "New Direction" and according to the last AP/Ipsos poll 57% of Americans (poll oversampled in favor of Dems mind you) say that the Dems have NO PLAN for Iraq. So much for your posturing. You've got the reins - now govern. LOL - that is as soon as your illustrious leaders get over fighting amongst themselves.
Posted by: Specter at November 29, 2006 07:43 PM (ybfXM)
84
gilly,
Learn about how this works too. These are properly "comments" on a blog. These are not "blogs".
Posted by: Specter at November 29, 2006 07:50 PM (ybfXM)
85
I've linked to you here: http://consul-at-arms.blogspot.com/2006/11/re-one-war-not-yet-fully-engaged.html
Posted by: Consul-At-Arms at November 29, 2006 07:53 PM (sveY5)
86
Specter.
I am speechless about your knowledge about the Iraq mess!!
Hey, If you don't want to talk about your "plan" to get us out of the quagmire from hell that the Neo-Cons got America into... I understand... It most be a classified plan.
I'll waith for the usual lick by the New York Times.
Posted by: gil at November 29, 2006 08:04 PM (LeY6O)
87
Specter.
I am speechless about your knowledge on the Iraq War.
Hey, if you don't want to talk about your "plan" to get us out of the quagmire from hell that Bush and his Neo-Cons got us into I understand. Your plan most be classified, and can't talk about it.
I'll just wait for the usual New York Times lick. But my guess is that your plan is to blame the entire fiasco on Clinton and the Democrats.
Good luck.
Posted by: gil at November 29, 2006 08:08 PM (LeY6O)
88
Specter,
I wondered why you decided to call me Crusty. No, I've not posted here under username 'Crusty', and I don't know who that person is.
Gil's right about you. You pick up on details like I misread a post or whatever as a vindication for your Clown World beliefs. I asked you why the White House edited out the Mission Accomplished banner in the Bush speech video, and you spout off about what clothes he was wearing during the speech. I guess you think somebody is smearing him with photoshop? What an oaf. It's plain as day that the White House did it. The question is WHY they did it, and you don't have any good answer.
As for the UN resolution, who cares? We need to do what's right for the US. I know you loathe the UN, so it's lame to quote a resolution in the first place. Here's an idea: go to the parents of dead soldier and quote your resolution to them. They'll clearly explain to you that you are nitwit, since you won't take my word for it.
Posted by: Earl at November 29, 2006 08:37 PM (yXuTl)
89
See Crusty - I told you you would try to shift the goal posts again. And I was right - AGAIN.
I also see you can't answer my question about the clothing - even though I made it clear why. Tell you what master sleuth - find the original video that you claim had the banner wiped and let's compare them side by side. Not a photoshopping problem here. Just google it and find the cached "original" you claim was out there. Burden of proof is on the accuser.
I'll leave it to your udder-intelligence to find out the reference to Crusty-the-Earl.
gilly,
I know all about Iraq. I see you haven't read the thread yet, and I am not about to recreate all that has been said because you are too lazy to read. You know, specifically the posts (comments on a blog)where we talked about what a mess it is - and where I specifically detailed the history of Iran and Iraq going back to WWII, pointing out how each administration; how both sides of our political aisle, contributed to the problem we face today. Prove to me that the whole thing just "sprang up" overnight when Bush took office. C'Mon - you made the accusation - now live up to it. But read all of my "comments" on this "thread" first. You said you wanted to debate - so bring it on. Let's see your proof that the problems over there only started with Bush - I mean something besides your proclamation that it is so.
What I've said all along gilly is that we are not dealing with something that happened as a snap-shot in time. It is a problem that grew over about 60+years based on the twists and turns of American policy over that time. Different administrations went different ways, supported different governments (even dictators) against others, did about-faces on the people we were supporting, and let megalomania flourish in the region. So get off your high horse of proclamation by realizing and understanding the BIG Picture.
And if you had read, I admitted that Bush is the one that went into Iraq, and even though the basic war (you know the toppling of the regime) was over quickly, the WOT was not. And we did not plan properly for that. I've said that numerous times. In fact, I tried to point out in the "historical" comment that what we are facing now is the same problem that we faced - and in fact the reason we decided to pull back in the first Gulf War.
But I also pointed out that at some point you've got to actually act rather than posture. For 12 years, and multiple UN resolutions, Hussein thumbed his nose at us and the rest of the world. From kicking out inspectors to hiding components of his WMD program (You should check out project Harmony), to terrorist camps, to firing on planes in the no-fly zone, and everything in between.
Now - don't use the lame excuse that Bush misled the Dems into believing that Saddam posed a threat, because I can pull tons of quotes from all of those great leaders of yours from BEFORE Bush was President. I can show you where in 1988 Clinton signed the Iraq Liberation Act and where he actually attacked Iraq in December 1988 (Operation Desert Fox) to "denigrate" Hussein's WMD capability. Now - 1988 was long after your side now claims Hussein got rid of all his stuff like a good boy - like 6 years after. So, why did Clinton attack Iraq - actually make an ACT OF WAR against a sovereign nation?
And if you want me to believe that you truly think Bush, the man your side claims is stupid, was able to "mislead" all of your brilliant leaders in 2001 and on, well - I'll just have to laugh some more at you. Think of the logic there - you think Bush is stupid, yet he was able to mislead your leaders - leading to the inevitable conclusion that they are more stupid, by your logic, than Bush is. Go ahead - make that argument, LOL.
KC - you got all that refutation on the historical perspective I presented - you know - the historical facts that you said I skewed? I've been waiting for you to respond. What's that? You can't find a place I "skewed" it? Imagine that.
Posted by: Specter at November 30, 2006 07:13 AM (ybfXM)
90
Well, it seems pointing out that your position is foolish just gets the comment removed. I had a nice long post pointing out many of the disingenuous statements made in the above post and comments, but it has been removed. Good to know that rigorous debate is practiced here.
Posted by: George Orwell at November 30, 2006 10:54 AM (AyaAr)
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WaPo: Selective Reporting on al-Anbar?
I can't say that this morning's Dafna Linzer/Thomas Ricks article Anbar Picture Grows Clearer, and Bleaker in the Washington Post comes as a surprise considering the overall tone of their reporting on the War in Iraq, but this article, based on an update of selectively-released elements of a previous classified report that many feel was taken out of context, seems to run counter to what many others are seeing in the same area of Iraq.
What appears to be the most easily refutable charge brought forth in the WaPo article occurs in the lede:
The U.S. military is no longer able to defeat a bloody insurgency in western Iraq or counter al-Qaeda's rising popularity there, according to newly disclosed details from a classified Marine Corps intelligence report that set off debate in recent months about the military's mission in Anbar province.
This contention, of course, seems directly challenged by the emergence of the
Sahawa, or the Awakening, a movement among the major Sunni tribes of al Anbar
against al Qaeda. Sunni tribes are increasingly leading the fight
against al Qaeda and Sunni insurgents.
Fumento, who is on the ground in Ramadi and is reporting first-hand accounts, is buttressed by others who have or
who are about to have first-hand experience in that province in Iraq.
Linzer and Ricks based their article on selectively-leaked excerpts for a classified Marine report and the words of anonymous "experts" in Washington, D.C.
Michael Fumento
is there, on the ground in al-Anbar's capital of Ramadi, reporting the words of real people, by name, who are actively engaged in operations on the ground.
Given his proximity and many
supporting accounts, I tend to think the Linzer/Ricks article is a fine example of reporters cherry-picking evidence to support a pre-determined outcome.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
09:47 AM
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1
The administration rationalized the war on WMD, said it would be a cakewalk, said we'd be greeted as liberators, thought there was no history of ethnic strife in Iraq, thought the mission was accomplished three years ago, failed to secure arms depots, fired the Iraqi army, failed to prevent the torture of prisoners which was documented for every Iraqi to see. It seems as though they didn't have any plan at all for the occupation.
The media has not portrayed the war too negatively. See http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FWlxxshasvQ
Posted by: Earl at November 28, 2006 01:07 PM (yXuTl)
2
Earl,
You actually still here Mr. Crusty-the-Troll. I though I gave you the link to AUMF which showed all kinds of reasons why we went to war besides WMD. Have you finished your studying little boy, or you just wish to keep the sad story going because you've been told that? Remember I trashed every post you made in the other thread. Don't make me pull out facts again. I could just cut and paste. You on the other hand provided not one fact - not one link that was not shown to be incorrect.
CY - great! Nothing like confronting the loonies with facts. Interesting that you let Earl keep spouting the same old BS.
Posted by: Specter at November 28, 2006 01:34 PM (ybfXM)
3
LOL - Earl - so are you telling us you consider Youtube to be the same as LAT, NYT, Boston Globe, Washington Post, Baltimore Sun, ABC, NBC, CNN, Al-Jezeera, CBS...etc...etc...etc? Grow up little boy.
Posted by: Specter at November 28, 2006 01:36 PM (ybfXM)
4
BTW Earl - What's the plan? I've asked you a dozen times...clock's ticking. Only 4 weeks til your guys take over. No plan yet. Most Americans believe you have no plan....seems correct to me. tick...tock...tick...tock...
Posted by: Specter at November 28, 2006 01:38 PM (ybfXM)
5
You refuted jack, Specter. I was here on Earth during the runup to the war, and I specifically remember WMD WMD WMD WMD WMD. That's all they talked about. Rice warned about a mushroom cloud, Bush said Saddam tried to buy uranium from Niger, Powell said there were mobile weapons labs, Rumsfeld said the WMD's were near Tikrit, I could go on literally for hours in this vein. Sure they made a few remarks about democracy, but it was a drop in the ocean. I can't say what happened in Clown World of course. Nothing I said above is in the least bit controversial here on Earth.
I haven't a clue what you mean about considering 'Youtube to be the same as LAT, NYT, ...' It's just a video respository. You can upload videos there too. But again I guess Clown World has its own set of rules.
Posted by: Earl at November 28, 2006 03:39 PM (yXuTl)
6
Specter, I've said repeatedly I don't have a solution for Iraq because there is no solution. You may as well break a bottle of $1,000 wine and say "What's your idea now? Huh? Huh?" But here's the bigger question: why does there need to be an idea? Are things going well in Iraq or aren't they? If it's the perfect war, well I don't need to provide a solution. If on the other hand if you admit we've created violent chaos, well you should just shut up then. Even in Clown World you can't have that both ways.
Posted by: Earl at November 28, 2006 03:42 PM (yXuTl)
7
Specter -- Clown World is smaller than you think:
“‘Stay the course’ is gone. We’re going to try and devise some new strategies, hopefully with the President’s concurrence. Our soldiers, sailors and airmen should not be in there, risking their lives, losing their lives to stop a Civil War.”
John Warner R Virginia outgoing chairman of the Senate Armed Services Committee.
Posted by: Earl at November 28, 2006 04:52 PM (yXuTl)
8
said it would be a cakewalk
I recall casualty estimates as high as 10,000 being tossed around in the media prior to the invasion.
Posted by: Purple Avenger at November 28, 2006 04:55 PM (1WIsD)
9
Purple --
I'm not privy to what the Clown World media said, but on my planet we had this:
"I believe that demolishing Hussein's military power and liberating Iraq would be a cakewalk"
Ken Adelman, Defense Policy Board
Posted by: Earl at November 28, 2006 05:26 PM (yXuTl)
10
Yea, that part took about 3 weeks and was a cakewalk. What's your point?
Posted by: Purple Avenger at November 28, 2006 10:47 PM (1WIsD)
11
That's ridiculous, Purple. Baghdad was a picnic compared to the "not exactly greeted as liberators" part. You're being an idiot.
Posted by: Earl at November 29, 2006 12:43 AM (yXuTl)
12
"not exactly greeted as liberators"
We were greeted as liberators though.
Posted by: Purple Avenger at November 29, 2006 02:44 PM (p9O/F)
13
WOULD YOU PLEASE BAN THIS IDIOT EARL I AM GETTING TIRED OF HAVING TO SCROLL THRU HIS IDIOCY.
Posted by: chw at November 29, 2006 03:40 PM (DSeW+)
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American Legion Vs. Charles Rangel
Via The Corner:
WASHINGTON Nov. 27 /Standard Newswire/ — The National Commander of The American Legion called on Rep. Charles Rangel (D-N.Y.) to apologize for suggesting that American troops would not choose to fight in Iraq if they had other employment options.
"Our military is the most skilled, best-trained all- volunteer force on the planet," said National Commander Paul A. Morin. "Like that recently espoused by Sen. John Kerry, Congressman Rangel's view of our troops couldn't be further from the truth and is possibly skewed by his political opposition to the war in Iraq."
According to Rangel, "If a young fellow has an option of having a decent career, or joining the Army to fight in Iraq, you can bet your life that he would not be in Iraq. If there's anyone who believes these youngsters want to fight, as the Pentagon and some generals have said, you can just forget about it. No bright young individual wants to fight just because of a bonus and just because of some educational benefits," Rangel said.
Rangel was responding to a question during an interview yesterday on Fox News Sunday about a recent study by the Heritage Foundation which found that those enlisting in the military tend to be better educated than the general public and that military recruiting seems to be more successful in middle- class and wealthy neighborhoods than in poor ones.
According to the study, 97 percent of military enlistees were high school graduates versus 80 percent of Americans in general. The study also concludes that the average reading level of military personnel is a full grade level higher than that of the general population.
"I'm not sure I understand what is unfair about letting adults make their own career choices," Morin said as he visited troops in Korea this week. "Troops serving today have a higher education level than the overall population. Why another member of Congress is insulting our troops' commitment and education level is beyond me."
Morin said the American Legion applauds and appreciates the great sacrifices of those who serve - - many of whom have put civilian careers aside, college on hold or given up high paying jobs to enlist.
More and more troops say it's duty and honor before college fund that motivated them to join. Recruiting numbers have been met this year, but more importantly, servicemembers are reenlisting so retention within the armed forces is great, Morin explained. Not everyone holds the view that we should wait to be attacked again as a nation.
"These brave men and women lay it on the line every day for each and every one of us, for which I am very grateful," Morin said. "Their selfless commitment for the betterment of our world from radical extremists is beyond commendable. It's time for members of Congress to stop insulting our troops.
"While the American Legion shares the congressman's appreciation for education, the troops in Iraq represent the most sophisticated, technologically superior military that the world has ever seen," Morin said. "I call on Congressman Rangel to not only apologize to our troops but to also fight for pay increases and make significant improvements to the current GI Bill — reserves and guard included, as he prepares for a party chairmanship in the 110th Congress."
Odds are that Rangle will either ignore the American Legion (as he has always consistently avoided the facts that those in the military are not overwhelmingly poor inner city minorities, but quite the opposite) or issue a John Kerry-esque "I'm sorry that you aren't smart enough to understand me" non-apology apology.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
08:50 AM
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1
You've got to be kidding. Man, you rightwads are graspiong at straws again.
I suggest rolling a big fattie, get a few beers and start acting like a Real American. Not some nerdy rightwad blogger for Gawds's sake.
Have some self-respect, already.
Posted by: Timm at November 28, 2006 09:12 AM (AgR20)
2
Let me see if I get this: Timm's (liberal?) definition of being a "real American" involves getting drunk and stoned while ignoring a Congressman's lied-based continuing slander of our military.
Gotcha. I'm sure our Founding Fathers would be proud, Timm.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at November 28, 2006 09:41 AM (g5Nba)
3
Oh Timm, that's your solution to everything.
Posted by: BohicaTwentyTwo at November 28, 2006 10:33 AM (oC8nQ)
4
I expect Rangel to repeat Hanoi John's non-apology, apology.
Isn't it great, people have finally figured out that Hanoi John is stupid, he's rated 20th in who people like in a group of 20 politicians. Now they need to do a group of 100 and see if he can get a rating of 100.
Posted by: Scrapiron at November 28, 2006 11:39 AM (0Co69)
Posted by: Frederick at November 28, 2006 12:05 PM (dbo1X)
6
Yo, Timm, cool writing, Dude! What is the past tense of the word "graspiong"?
Posted by: Tom TB at November 28, 2006 12:06 PM (YadGF)
7
Here's the goods. Military Officers Association of America:
Still want to go with Allahpundit's suggestion, "Let the morality of every war be judged by the number of patriots willing to volunteer for it. “Bad” wars will attract few enlistees and end quickly in defeat as we run out of troops..."
Posted by: Frederick at November 28, 2006 12:17 PM (dbo1X)
8
Timm et al.
For you information, my 18 year old son volunteered for service in the Marines. He was ready to go. Unfortunately a case of patella femoral syndrome (bad knees) meant he could not do the running necessary. But guess what? His last year in hight school was honor roll. He comes from a solid, middle class, suburban family. There have been lots of volunteers from our town of 25,000 people. Shows what you don't know, or refuse to admit (which is more likely the case). Go back to your blunts and beers Timmy and let the adults handle things.
Posted by: Specter at November 28, 2006 01:30 PM (ybfXM)
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November 27, 2006
Drugs are Bad...
Apparently, even nominal quantities of over-the-counter cold medications can cause you to see the most interesting things.
I know this, because
this Reuters picture has all the earmarks of a crudely-edited PhotoShop, from the rather odd smudges and apparent artifacts around the heads of the two women on the left when the photo is enlarged, to the rather uncanny resemblance that one person in the picture has to someone I feel I should know.
After
Adnan Hajj, Reuters wouldn't fall for this sort of stuff again, would they?
It’s a good thing I can chalk this up to cough syrup. If not, I might have to start questioning the media’s accuracy.
Update:Jeez. Take a little cough syrup, disappear for a few hours, and the world goes nuts. FWIW, some credible experts have said that the artifacts that I thought may be evidence of photoshopping may have been the result of JPG compression, and that any resemblence to the President was purely coincidental. I can live with that.
What I do have a harder time living with is the foul language of our left wing guests. As a result, comments are closed, and the most offensive comments have been removed.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
04:29 PM
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1
Your trackbacks appear to be busted....fyi.
Posted by: Karol at November 27, 2006 04:51 PM (CERqk)
2
Seems that Drudge picked up on your drug induced haze, and is now wondering that very question - is that Bush behind the burka? Beats me... but you do raise some interesting questions about the odd artifacts in the image.
Posted by: lawhawk at November 27, 2006 05:30 PM (WfoaK)
3
Well spotted.
No doubt the usual excuses from Reuters will be forthcoming. . . .
Posted by: David at November 27, 2006 05:53 PM (pNRtZ)
4
must be cough syrup and methamphetamines.
don't ever post something this stupid again.
Posted by: jummy at November 27, 2006 06:16 PM (Z81HX)
5
Is it possible Drudge actually poached your find without attribution? If so, sorry about those couple million missed visitors. I made certain to point the link in my post to CY, so enjoy those dozen or so hits as consolation.
Posted by: Flip at November 27, 2006 06:17 PM (sLI85)
6
Geeze, this is a far "stretch" even for Drudge. It looks nothing like Bush. I mean, look at the nose and you can tell its not even a "bad" photoshop try. Give me a break.
Posted by: Danny at November 27, 2006 06:40 PM (NebRi)
7
reaching a little on this one... looks like the nose is different to me... blotches appear on other women in pic.
Posted by: bringemon2006 at November 27, 2006 06:40 PM (Q1s81)
8
It's 56K and a JPG. JPGs are lossy, everytime they are aved they degrade. The entire image has JPG artifacts.
Posted by: ohnohedidnt at November 27, 2006 06:41 PM (s7nkh)
9
It is clearly photoshopped, see here:
http://___371.imageshack.us/___371/2920/shoppedtu8.jpg
Posted by: Captain America! at November 27, 2006 06:41 PM (MYM86)
10
Ok, how was that suppose to prove anything Captain America?
Posted by: Jaggzz at November 27, 2006 06:45 PM (3SiSF)
11
I agree. Nose is different, not him, end of story. Everyone starts to look the same after 60. Drudge is a moron waterboy.
Posted by: Mike at November 27, 2006 06:47 PM (kzOju)
12
It has been edited.. Exif data is not in the picture
Posted by: Harold H at November 27, 2006 06:47 PM (kqoIv)
13
It certainly is not Bush - the hands are too fat.
Posted by: Jeremy at November 27, 2006 06:48 PM (NuXI6)
14
Maybe Bush has some relatives that he didn't know about....
I would assume that if someone did want to photoshop in his picture they wouldn't modify the face.
The arch on the nostril is not high enough and the point is not sharp enough. Plus, the eyes have the same vacant slightly cross-eyed stare as woman sitting down.
Posted by: longlost at November 27, 2006 06:50 PM (Fv+2n)
15
Stick it moron Mike...the media are all scum
Posted by: Glenn L at November 27, 2006 06:52 PM (wqlvy)
16
Here we go again with yet another panic attack over alleged "fauxtography". Is this really the best the blogosphere can do? How is this any better or different than the MSM inventing news to pad a slow news cycle. Dan Rather and the bogus National Guard documents was a scandal. But that was also more than two years ago. This stuff is not a scandal. It's just the pathetic site of the great and powerful blogosphere clinging to the fading memory of Rathergate. Iraq is the most disastrous American mistake in 30 years, and we're going to get our panties all up in a bunch over some meaningless Reuters photo shop, which by the way proves exactly what? Priceless.
Posted by: John at November 27, 2006 06:56 PM (qFJ3X)
17
Spot on, my friend...great catch.
Posted by: touchnova at November 27, 2006 06:56 PM (DhN/7)
18
And what would be the point of this in the first place? Anyone?
Posted by: Stevo at November 27, 2006 06:57 PM (LI1g/)
19
Many of "those" women look like Texas men.
Posted by: GerryLincoln at November 27, 2006 06:59 PM (ZKr6a)
20
It's Helen Thomas.....
Posted by: Ron at November 27, 2006 07:01 PM (WCAF3)
21
Defnitely a photoshop job again from Reuters. They are known for this fakery.
Posted by: KarenC at November 27, 2006 07:01 PM (8bBvk)
22
By "Texas men", Gerry really means former male cheerleaders from Connecticut.
Posted by: Athiest at November 27, 2006 07:02 PM (JPL0A)
23
Nice try, Confederate Nazi, but you can't railroad Reuters like you did to Dan Rather. That's obviously not the Shrub, but one of the many Iraqi wwomen who look like either him or Jack Murtha.
Their concept of beauty isn't as superficial as ours, you fascist.
p.s.
Gratz on the Drudge nod.
Posted by: Liberal Larry at November 27, 2006 07:04 PM (uFGQk)
24
How is this even close to a photoshop? Read up on JPEGs and maybe get off the Kool-Aid/cough syrup. Sheesh. Next thing you know, you'll say Cheney is in the coffin... but then again, you right types never pay attention to the dead.
Posted by: Owen at November 27, 2006 07:04 PM (ZkMP1)
25
This woman is unfortunate enough to look like GW.
It is an interesting novelty
oh by the way SAUL. If someone was "Gay Literally" it would mean they are happy and joyful. I think what you mean is "Gay figuratively"
Not to mention the fact that your comment arises questions about your own sexuality.
Posted by: Shanster at November 27, 2006 07:04 PM (DWOhs)
26
Isn't the woman on the bottom Little Edie Beale?
Posted by: Steve at November 27, 2006 07:05 PM (PHRYM)
27
I don't see any evidence of photoshopping. Maybe, just maybe, of the 6 billion or so people in the world, a sliver of one woman's exposed face happens to share similiar characteristics to George Bush's.
Posted by: payne at November 27, 2006 07:06 PM (N2nfy)
28
thats not bush..the news media these day are so silly and confused...the nose is to big...when bush is out of office who they going to heckel nest? a dem? give me a break
Posted by: bruce at November 27, 2006 07:06 PM (U8OLk)
29
Jaggz
http://___371.imageshack.us/___371/2920/shoppedtu8.jpg
Look at the right angles and lighter skin where the Bush features were photoshopped in.
Posted by: Captain America! at November 27, 2006 07:07 PM (MYM86)
30
Gee,more liberals criticizing Drudge and making fun of gays. I thought they were all gay...or at least pro-gay themselves. Oh, that's right; there are "good" gays and "bad" gays. I guess Drudge is the bad kind to liberals and they think it's fine to criticize THAT kind.
As to this actually being Helen Thomas, there is NO muslim woman anywhere who looks as male AND unattractive as Helen Thomas.
Is it Bush? I dunno. But I do know that, speaking of carrying water, there's no media outlet that carries a bigger liberal bucket than Reuters...except for AP...the aforementioned UPI/Helen Thomas...and the New York Times...and every other major metro newspaper...and Time...and Newsweek...and CBS...and NBC...and ABC...and MSNBC...and, of course, CNN and all derivatives thereof ...and, oh forget it...the list is just too long.
Posted by: Eddie at November 27, 2006 07:12 PM (c1Sef)
31
This is really face on Mars kinda stuff. Let's wait until we have them dead to rights on something material. We shouldn't have to wait long.
Posted by: Carl at November 27, 2006 07:13 PM (ObtAw)
Posted by: lazneeks at November 27, 2006 07:14 PM (3JFL7)
33
whats a pedo-cons..your talking way above my head..you must had went to one of those liberal colleges and got brain washed
Posted by: bruce at November 27, 2006 07:17 PM (U8OLk)
34
Reuters excuse this time:
"This is merely an(other) isolated case and we assure everyone that this won't happen again."
I wonder how many hundreds, if not thousands, of anti-American photos are out there that Reuters has also altered.
Posted by: Medium Pimpin at November 27, 2006 07:17 PM (lKyZj)
35
Here is even a more zoomed in and an inverted blow up next to it. The faces pixels are too uniformed in color, and the cut and past job with the touchups is very clear.
http://___361.imageshack.us/___361/2046/shopped2tu8.jpg
Posted by: Captain America! at November 27, 2006 07:20 PM (MYM86)
36
check out the inverted images Yank :
http://www.fromthepen.com/graphics/bushburqa.jpg
I smell fish.
Regards
buck
Posted by: Bucktowndusty at November 27, 2006 07:21 PM (Z4zgV)
37
Why isn't the fabulous "Crooks and Liars" site in your Blogroll?
Posted by: CJ at November 27, 2006 07:24 PM (MHTKi)
38
Captain America, do you even know how to use Photoshop? I do these sorts of photo manipulations all the time. I don't see any clear evidence of Photoshop manipulation.
Posted by: JPV at November 27, 2006 07:25 PM (79Wl+)
39
Those are not burqas (which are blue beekeeper-like veils from Afghanistan which would completely cover the face) but black Iraqi chadors...and that definitely is not a fake-up of Bush.
Dreary and rather ignorant accusations. Save the blogstorm til you have something worthwhile
Posted by: GOPgawker at November 27, 2006 07:30 PM (zYnK6)
40
Bucktowndusty, those bumps on the head are clearly seen without needing to invert the photo. What's the point? You wouldn't need to alter that part of the photo, in order to blend the face in.
And as for the sleeve being changed, I just don't see it, and I can't figure out why the arm would need to be altered anyway. Makes no sense.
Posted by: JPV at November 27, 2006 07:30 PM (79Wl+)
41
As a professional Photoshop expert for over 10 years, I say you are all nuts!
There is no there-there!
Silly rabbits, tricks are for kids! Get a real job. Hanging out in your parent’s basement doing mushrooms just makes you hallucinating losers. Jet a Job!
Posted by: ESP at November 27, 2006 07:33 PM (RQAk4)
42
JPV - you work for Reuters? Sounds like it. If not, I'm sure they can use your skills.
Posted by: Specter at November 27, 2006 07:35 PM (ybfXM)
43
Same comment to you ESP (Gawwwwd....ESP - you also in on those Comey-Fitzpatrick Mind Rays?)
Posted by: Specter at November 27, 2006 07:37 PM (ybfXM)
44
Specter, how on earth would sharing my opinion on the matter, imply that I work for Reuters?
Posted by: JPV at November 27, 2006 07:38 PM (79Wl+)
45
It's Clinton's mother. Or what Chelsea will look like when she is 60.
Posted by: Kramer at November 27, 2006 07:50 PM (GdxLj)
46
I'm a photographer with a background in image
manipulation and a hobby of analyzing
potentially doctored images. The source image of
Bush when overlayed with the face in the AP
photo match point for point both in facial
dimension and in camera angle. If you don't
believe me, use Photoshop to cut out the picture
of Bush's face, paste it over the face in the AP
photo, and adjust the level of transparency
until you can line them up perfectly. Every
human face is different. In addition, the
slightest difference in position of a camera
will makes two shots of the same subject
distinctly different. The level of facial
congruency present when the images are
overlayed strongly suggests that the images are
one and the same. Granted, the quality of the
image does make it a little more difficult to
prove definitively.
Posted by: kryptos at November 27, 2006 07:53 PM (8mk4Y)
47
For the last time, you homophobic closet homosexual cons are all having gay fantasies about having gay sex with Bush because gay sex is all you ever think about. Gay sex gay sex gay sex!
Perverts!
But once you admit you have a problem, you'll be welcomed into the Big Tent not as sexual deviants, but as opressed victims of a narrow-minded, hetrocentric culture obsessed with primitive gender stereotypes!
Then you can have all the gay sex you want.
Posted by: Liberal Larry at November 27, 2006 07:54 PM (uFGQk)
48
Eddie
You can't really be that stupid, can you? Those aren't comments from lefties about Drudge and teh gay. Look a little closer.
Posted by: Thom at November 27, 2006 08:05 PM (3jLID)
49
Where are you? It's time to wash mama's feet!
Posted by: Specter's mom at November 27, 2006 08:16 PM (uPOOA)
50
Ok, I was reeled in at first, but it boils down to this: without the benefit of a reasonably high resolution image, it is virtually impossible to detect retouching artifacts from the jpeg originally provided on Reuters. Having made a decent living as a retoucher and photoshop guru for the last 15 years, I ran the Reuters image through a battery of filters and adjustments to try and draw out any real evidence of tampering, and nothing came up strong enough to outweigh the jpeg artifacts naturally present. That being said - - does it look like GW? Yes. Could it actually be a fake? Yes. But not because there are some blotchy artifacts on this jpeg, and it sorta looks like the prez. There is a uniformity of artifacts evenly distributed throughout the image and it doesn't seem to be concentrated near the face or anywhere else. But let's keep trying! If someone can get their hands on an authentic, higher resolution jpeg of this image, I'd love to check it out.
Posted by: Bryan at November 27, 2006 08:20 PM (LvPw6)
51
By the way, Kryptos, I did the same thing as you - - superimposed the Bush face over the photo. Not even close.
Posted by: Bryan at November 27, 2006 08:29 PM (LvPw6)
52
Dude, wouldn't the MSM want to "Faux"-tograph Bush smiling under that burqa to make him look bad?
Posted by: Sir Oolius at November 27, 2006 09:13 PM (Krl1c)
53
Heh. For anyone out there wondering what the commentary is like at left-wing blogs, because you're curious to see what "the other side" is talking about, now you know.
Posted by: Floyd at November 27, 2006 09:22 PM (tDtI9)
54
"Because liberalism is a persistent vegetative state."
Um..right.
Posted by: pinkobot at November 27, 2006 10:27 PM (jPhXS)
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The Media's Absolute Immoral Authority
It turns out that "Iraqi police sources" that that have provided the Associated Press with so many of their Shia on Sunni violence stories since April are not, in fact Iraqi police, and that at least some of the stories they're reported are more than likely false.
This is hot on the heels of an investigation by Patterico that revealed that the
L.A. Times may have relied on sources that may be (to be charitable)
unreliable.
In both instances, facts and ethically-sound journalistic practices were in very short supply, as "journalists" apparently holed up at the bar in the al Rasheed Hotel breathlessly and uncritically reported what anonymous Iraqi stringers provided to them as news. That this practice of blind reporting is apparently widespread and accepted by the professional media should be very troubling to those who read major news site and make the (apparently erroneous) assumption that the stories being reported are based on objective, verified facts, not the whims of stringers citing sources that do not, in fact, exist.
It is increasingly apparent that the guy
sitting in his living room in his pajamas may know about what is actually going on in Iraq than does his professional counterpart hunkered down in the Green Zone in Baghdad, due in no small part to the fact that the reporters in the Green Zone seem to swallow the uncorroborated reporting of Iraqi stringers of dubious allegiances and influences readily, and uncritically.
The media isn't necessarily
willfully reporting false stories, they are simply too lazy to verify what they are reporting is comprised of actual facts instead of fantasy. They seem to have adopted a worldview that whatever act is the most depraved, must be the most infallible.
Call it "absolute immoral authority."
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
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1
Oh, that's too much, stop...I can't take it. I'm laughing so hard my tummy hurts.
Posted by: Frederick at November 27, 2006 03:48 PM (jSBbA)
2
Laughing? That's just a version of sticking your fingers in your ears and humming real loud.
Posted by: Lee at November 27, 2006 03:59 PM (DCQ6M)
3
As opposed to poking your fingers in your eyes, fawning over Insipidpundit?
Posted by: Fred at November 27, 2006 04:36 PM (CkQe6)
4
Fred, you are just making up shit. You don't have an argument. You don't have anything.
Posted by: Lee at November 27, 2006 05:36 PM (DCQ6M)
Posted by: Frederick at November 27, 2006 10:27 PM (jSBbA)
6
They did this in Vietnam and we're surprised they're doing it again?
Posted by: ThomasJackson at November 28, 2006 01:56 AM (wbGHL)
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On Non-Civilians
The Chicago Tribune carries an article today by Joel Greenberg on the increasing frequency with which Palestinian militants are being shielded from Israeli strikes by the interference of Palestinian non-combatants:
On a rooftop in a crowded neighborhood here, about 30 Palestinian women sat on chairs and mattresses on a recent afternoon, serving as human shields against a possible Israeli air strike on the family home of a prominent Hamas militant.
As an Israeli drone buzzed overhead, the women were defiant.
Our technology is faith in God," said Itaf al-Masri, 47.
The scene was an example of the kind of struggle waged here in recent months between the Israeli military and the Palestinians, a battle between a high-tech army and the simpler arms and tactics of militants and their civilian supporters. The confrontation, halted by a tenuous cease-fire Sunday, was reminiscent of the challenges faced by the U.S. military in Iraq and in the past during the Vietnam War.
Gaza militants fired crude but deadly homemade rockets at Israel and dug tunnels under the border with Egypt to smuggle in arms. In one standoff with Israeli troops, Palestinian women marched to a mosque where militants were holed up and enabled them to escape. The Israelis used sophisticated surveillance technology and aircraft to hunt down rocket squads and kill militant leaders, often also hitting civilians.
Greenberg refuses to ask the question that his article begs, namely, at what point do ideologically-aligned non-combants shielding militants cease occupying the protected status of "civilian?"
In asymmetrical warfare, does the status of civilian always exist for non-militants, or should there be a new classification to account for those somewhere between active militancy and those that are truly non-participatory?
I'd opine that the Palestinian women in the Greenberg story above, by voluntarily interjecting themselves into a projected conflict area as human shields as partisans acting on behalf of Hamas militants, have surrendered their rights to be defined as "civilians." They are ideologically-aligned with terrorist organizations, but that alone does not make them loose their protected status as civilians. Nor does the fact that they are human shields remove their protected status, as human shields can be involuntary.
No, what should remove their status as "civilians" is that they have willfully interjected themselves into a conflict with the express intent of providing immediate tactical support for a terrorist group. Their purposeful decision to run interference for terrorists should not in any way prevent an Israeli military response.
Historically, Muslims have rarely recognized the existence of any civilians (thereby justifying everything from 9/11 to Israeli market bombings to the murder of Indonesian schoolgirls), and the the creation of a "targetable non-militant participant" status would help level the playing field against those dehumanists that preach on-going jihad.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
12:42 PM
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AFAIK, this question was first formally addressed by the United States government in the War Department's General Order No. 100 during the Civil War. It authorized the immediate execution of enemy civilians caught directly aiding the enemy.
Posted by: Tom Holsinger at November 27, 2006 02:26 PM (QMi5+)
2
In the military the terms "Combatants" and "Non-Combatants" are used. It's a bit clearer that way, and based on their behavior.
The MSM likes to call terrorists, insurgents, militiamen, and all manner of folks trying to kill you "civilians", because technically they are not part of a nation's military. Isn't that nice?
Posted by: brando at November 27, 2006 02:51 PM (K+VjK)
3
To piggy back onto Tom's post, we also had 0 problem bombing civilians in WW2 who were supporting the Nazi and Japanese war machines by working in factories, or just paying taxes.
In this direct situation, these civilians are aiding the militants, knowingly. That makes them combatents. They'd be "human shields" if they were unwillingly strapped to that house. As they have made a choice, they are, imo, legal targets.
Posted by: Spade at November 27, 2006 02:52 PM (MwlDS)
4
of course in a war of survival, anyone that aids and abets your enemy is a legitimate target. By allowing these "shields" to defeat them, Israel no longer appears to have the will to survive.
I had hoped that when Iran nukes Israel, Israel would at least do the civilized world a favor and eliminate every major muslim population center and religious center. It appears that that wish is unlikely to be granted.
Posted by: iconoclast at November 27, 2006 02:57 PM (Jpc2l)
5
Black 5 had an interesting commentary regarding the killing of children. It largely applies here, even more so since these people are even less sympathetic than children.
On the virtues of killing children
Posted by: Purple Avenger at November 27, 2006 03:02 PM (1WIsD)
6
There's only one way to stop this, bomb the houses anyway. Sure, these people die, but they are supporting the enemy and they are now "Combatants".
You sit on a roof, you take your chances...
By its very nature, WAR is NOT politically correct. Nor can a war fought by politically correct rules be won. Never.
Posted by: WB at November 27, 2006 03:54 PM (WzMud)
7
Spade & WB,
You left out the ultimate conclusion - when the enemy CONSISTENTLY uses their own civilians as weapons of war, the proper response is to kill them all until they surrender, or the few survivors no longer resist us.
From an old, scrolled off, Strategy Page column of mine:
"When A Democracy Chose Genocide
The United States government decided on June 18, 1945, to commit genocide on Japan with poison gas if its government did not surrender after the nuclear attacks approved in the same June 18 meeting. This was discovered by military historians Norman Polmar and Thomas Allen while researching a book on the end of the war in the Pacific. Their discovery came too late for inclusion in the book, so they published it instead in the Autumn 1997 issue of Military History Quarterly.
Polmar & Allen ran across references to this meeting in their research and put in a Freedom of Information Act request for related documents. Eventually they received, too late for use in their book, a copy of a document labeled "A Study of the Possible Use of Toxic Gas in Operation Olympic." The word "retaliatory" was PENCILED in between the words "possible" and "use".
Apparently there were only five of these documents circulated during World War Two. The document was requested by the Chemical Corps for historical study in 1947. In an attempt to "redact" history, another document was issued to change all the copies to emphasize retaliatory use rather than the reality of the US planning to use it offensively in support of the invasion of Japan.
The plan called for US heavy bombers to drop 56,583 tons of poison gas on Japanese cities in the 15 days before the invasion of Kyushu, then another 23,935 tons every 30 days thereafter. Tactical air support would drop more on troop concentrations.
The targets of the strategic bombing campaign were Japanese civilians in cities. Chemical Corps casualty estimates for this attack plan were five million dead with another five million injured. This was our backup to nuking Japan into surrender. If the A-bombs didn't work, we were going to gas the Japanese people from the air like bugs, and keep doing so until Japanese resistance ended or all the Japanese were dead.
Genocide is defined by treaty as the murder of a large number of people of an identifiable group, generally a nationality or religion, which number comprises an appreciable percentage of the total group. Five million dead is 6.4% of then 78 million people in the Japanese Home Islands, so this proposed gas attack would certainly have qualified as genocide.
What brought the United States government to that decision was the prospective casualties of a prolonged ground conquest of Japan against suicidal resistance, after Japanese Kamikaze attacks and suicidal ground resistance elsewhere had thoroughly dehumanized them to us.
The American people certainly would have supported such tactics at the time, especially as Japanese Imperial General Headquarters issued orders a month later, provided to us courtesy of code-breaking (MAGIC), to murder all Allied prisoners of war, all interned Allied civilians, and all other Allied civilians Japanese forces could catch in occupied China, the Dutch East Indies (now Indonesia), Malaya, etc., starting with the impending British invasion of Malaya in late September 1945. The Imperial Japanese Army was every bit as evil as the Nazi SS, and more lethal. They'd probably have killed at least an additional 50 million people, more than had died in all of World War Two to that point, before Allied armies could eliminate Japanese forces overseas.
The horror would not have stopped there. An estimated ONE THIRD of the Japanese people (25-30 million) would have died of starvation, disease, poison gas and conventional weapons during a prolonged ground conquest of Japan. The Japanese Army planned on locking up the Emperor, seizing power and fighting to the bitter end once the US invasion started. Thank God for the atom bomb - killing 150,000 - 200,000 Japanese at Hiroshima and Nagasaki saved 75-80 million lives. One of whom would have been the writer's father, an infantry lieutenant who survived Okinawa.
So the United States has within living memory made a decision to commit genocide on a whole people as a matter of state policy. We didn't have to do it because the Japanese Emperor knew we'd do it."
Posted by: Tom Holsinger at November 27, 2006 05:29 PM (QMi5+)
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