Confederate Yankee
August 11, 2006
Precarious Road
Michael Yon issues a stark warning about the growing civil war in Iraq. His comments are disturbing, to put it mildly, but I trust his analysis. We have soldiers and commanders on the ground that know how to succeed, and it seems they are not being allowed to complete their mission.
I've made it apparent in the past that I've had my disagreements with the present Administration, and while I've been impressed with the efforts of our soldiers on the ground, the leadership—primarily the political leadership—seems to have misjudged how best to conduct this war time and again, and quite frankly, seems on the verge of blowing it if they haven't already.
I think it is time for Donald Rumsfeld to consider retiring. He presided over two very successful and very different military invasions in Afghanistan and Iraq, winning each handily with minimal loses to men and equipment on both sides. I think it highly unlikely two countries the size of Afghanistan and Iraq can easily be dispatched as well by any other nation, and Rumsfeld ran two excellent invasion campaigns. The performance of our individual soldiers and commanders on the ground have also been phenomenal as well, and I cannot say enough about their professionalism or the degree of restraint and respect for civilian life with which they have fought these on-going wars.
But I do doubt how our political leadership have run the occupations and rebuilding of Iraq and Afghanistan after we established a large degree of control over these nations. Too many mistakes have been made.
The Sunni insurgency and their al Qaeda allies have been dealt crippling blows during the rebuilding of Iraq, but no rational person with any knowledge of history expects them to completely go away for years to come. But during this same time, Kurdish forces in the north have been allowed to engage in raids into Turkey with little or no repercussions, setting a stage where Turkey may invade northern Iraq. Shiite militias in Baghdad and southern Iraq have been allowed to exist and strengthen ties with Iran. The country is on the verge of collapsing into sectarian genocide, and our political leadership doesn't seem to have the stomach to crack down on these groups with the force necessary to literally kill the private sectarian armies that are ripping the country apart.
The Administration isn't wholly to blame for the situation in Iraq—it is after all their country and they are the ones killing each other—but it is responsible for Iraq to the point where some people have come to view private armies instead of a national government is in their best interests, as many Iraqis obviously do. The person most directly responsible for these failures in Iraq are not the soldiers on the ground, but their senior leadership in the Pentagon, and the man sitting at the desk of the Secretary of Defense. It is his job to run the military's wars, and he has allowed Iraq to reach its present state.
Perhaps it isn't entirely Rumsfeld's fault—he does take orders from the President, after all—but he is most directly in charge of a situation growing increasingly out of control, and I think it is time to have a fresh set of eyes look at the problem, and seek a better resolution. We must win in Iraq, and by "we", I mean the coalition
and the Iraqi people. Their lives matter to me. They deserve a chance to live in a society without fear.
We cannot win this war for the Iraqi people by withdrawing. The "nediots" chanting on a Connecticut stage, and mewling around the anti-victory left, refuse to address the genocide that could certainly occur if we heed their calls for a headlong, cowardly retreat. And yet, we cannot win by slowly reacting or failing to act to changing situations. The 25 million people of Iraq deserve the free nation they braved bombs and bullets to vote for, and we owe it to them as much as to ourselves to make sure they succeed.
Our present top level military leadership is failing at that task, and we need fresh eyes on the ball. I thank Donald Rumsfeld for his many years of hard work and dedication to our great nation, but I think it is time for him to pursue other opportunities.
We owe that to our Iraqi allies.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
10:22 AM
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I appreciate Micheal Yon's percspective, but I disagree with both his and your analysis of the SecDef's role. I'm finishing my third year in the building and haven't seen a single case of him countering the guys on the ground (he does ask some very tough questions of his commanders). Do you expect him to have townhall meetings with all the guys in the field on a weekly basis? Tactical operations require a tactical perspective and the SecDef shouldn't be in that business (and isn't). If there are problems at the operational level, those operational commanders need to fix them. I understand the adage of "the buck stops at the top"; so why not take your shot at POTUS. It would be as off the mark as this one is against the SecDef.
So what would you have your "replacement SecDef" do?
Posted by: Sluggo_f16 at August 11, 2006 10:54 AM (VE5vJ)
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CY, I have to agree with Sluggo_f16 in that SecDef is not a commander. He is a political appointee and is bascially a resource man. He should be collecting the requirements his commanders articulate, requesting of and fighting with congress for the necessary resources and them apportioning out what he gets. He is not a commander, he is not a trained tactician, and he is not a trained strategist. He is surrounded by such talents, but he himself is not the war executor. The chain of command has the theater commander answering directly to the CINC, not SecDef. If the thaeter commander answers to SecDef, the chain has been screwed up and Bush needs to fix it. Perhaps it's time to make General Dick Cody the theater commander.
Posted by: Old Soldier at August 11, 2006 12:39 PM (X2tAw)
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There was an article I read on an Iraqi General that got support from the locals in his area, I can't remember his name but maybe if he had a larger role or we could find a couple more like him.
Support from the Iraqi people could be a lot higher. That would go a long way in helping.
Posted by: Retired Navy at August 11, 2006 12:52 PM (nFSnk)
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CY - My first thoughts after reading this was, "OMG, those damn Lamontites have hacked CY's website too!"
Responsibility and accountability, are 2 words with no meaning in this administration. POTUS, Rummsfield, Chenney, Rove, etc. no one is responsible for what is going on over there. Just the "terrorists". Unfortunately, the only way you have been able tell when someone in this administration is being held "accountable" for their job is when they are given a medal.
I agree that fresh eyeballs are needed but we also need a well articulated, thought out, financially scoped (how and who will pay for this) plan, not 3 second media clips. We stand down when they stand up is a nursery rhyme not a plan. Stay the course is a bumpersticker slogan, not a plan. we can't cut and run is simply pointing out another non-solution, not offering one.
Posted by: matt a at August 11, 2006 01:32 PM (GvAmg)
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Why all the blame on Rumsfeld? Hasn't State had a role in the post-war period? What about the CIA?
Posted by: Robert Crawford at August 11, 2006 01:57 PM (n5eDP)
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Given Rumsfeld's strength in successful invasions, perhaps we need him for a couple more.
While the Long War erodes our liberties at home (mainly because our Politically Correct elites won't concentrate our domestic countermeasures against our Islamist enemies), terrorists abroad create instabilities that raise the price of oil and thereby increase terrorist funding. What America needs is a Short War. And a quick victory in a Short War is well within our grasp, since winning the war on terror requires controlling a relatively small amount of territory occupied by a relatively friendly population.
We can seize our enemies' center of gravity by liberating the oppressed Shia Arab majorities in Iran's Khuzestan province and Saudi Arabia's Hasa province. These provinces also happen to be the sources of the oil that funds the mullahs and sheiks who run the Islamist terror programs. They are compact, and their populations have no love lost for the imperialists in Teheran and Riyadh who seized these provinces in the early 20th century.
The oil revenues could then fund an infrastructure for peace in the Middle East, with funds going to roads instead of nukes and engineering schools instead of madrassas. A coalition of the willing -- an Anglosphere+ Alliance with the US-UK-Australia-Canada-NZ-India + Japan + Germany -- could administer the funds, paying for schools and hospitals and highways throughout the region.
The Khomeinists and the Wahabbis would have a choice of resisting our liberation of those provinces and suffering the consequences in Teheran and Riyadh -- think shock and awe -- or submitting to our control of those limited territories and living in peace with their palaces and offshore bank accounts intact (or with whatever their citizens will allow them to escape with after leading their nations into a disastrous confrontation with the West). They'll probably submit, but if they don't, the Army and the Marines could sweep their forces aside, and our Iraqi allies could help restore order among their Shiite cousins.
The same coalition of the willing could form the nucleus of a new United Democracies organization, withdrawing from the United Nations and setting high standards for membership in the new global community. With control of Persian Gulf oil revenues, this community could offer real benefits to nations that meet membership standards. The Islamist threat would fade with the end of Islamist funding, which has never had anything to do with earned wealth and productivity.
Would any politician embrace using our overwhelming power to convert this Long War into a Short War? It smacks of Teddy Roosevelt, who liberated Panama when it was a Colombian province and Colombia wouldn't let the USA build a canal. Teddy didn't believe in limits on governmental power, which was not such a good thing domestically but earned the USA tremendous respect internationally. As we face radical Islam again, it's time to for a leader to arise who would fulfill a promise "Pedicaris alive or Raisuli dead." Donald Rumsfeld, as you rightly note, seems to be the man. If he's been biding his time waiting for the opportunity, we should see that very soon. Both al-Quaida and Hezbollah have given us plenty of reason to go after Saudi and Iranian oil revenues.
Posted by: Mark White at August 11, 2006 04:05 PM (ELhCH)
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GO her
http://www.mnf-iraq.com/
Go her
http://www.defendamerica.mil/
War world 4 Began on sevtember 11. 2001
Posted by: KJW at August 11, 2006 05:28 PM (PRAE3)
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I agree with Sluggo and Old Soldier in a certain light: The most significant problems in Iraq aren't of a military nature nor are amenable to a military solution, so firing Rumsfeld isn't likely to change much. Rumsfeld's errors were in the planning of the war and the management of the initial occupation period were extensive, but his ability to influence events are minor at this point.
As I understand it, the problem is not with Iraqi army but with the disparate Iraqi police units. These Shite units compound the Sunni terrorist problem both by recklessly lashing out at Sunnis and more generally by being in the indirect control of corrupt local chieftains.
Unlike Confederate Yankee, I don't think the question here is whether we (US military) have the stomach to crack down on these renegade police units and de facto militias like Sadr's men. Somehow we have to assist the Iraqi government in co-opting these elements into the political process, to divert their energies into more legitimate channels.
It's not an ideal solution, and will require giving these thugs a dignity they don't otherwise deserve. But in my opinion, if the US army cracks down on the militias it risks being seen by the Shites of Iraq (the majority of Iraqis) as agents of the Sunnis. That is not good.
If we are going to choose sides, we should choose now, and relocate a significant force to Kurdistan while the Sunnis and Shites solve their age-old grievances. This might also solve the question of tension on the Turkish border. It's the best solution I've seen so far.
Posted by: Nate at August 11, 2006 06:06 PM (zoPvQ)
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I must whole heartedly agree with CY. Rummy needs to find a new place to go. He FAILED to capture Osama bin Laden when Bin Laden was most vulnerable while on the run in Afghanistan. He FAILED to maintain control over the populace in Iraq early on in the summer of 2003, before an insurgency could organize. We ARE the world's most powerful nation, the world's ONLY superpower. We HAVE the greatest military in the history of Planet Earth. There IS no room for such FAILURE and incompetence. It's time for Donald to take that fishing trip, and leave the business of war to those better suited.
Posted by: Mike Meyer at August 11, 2006 10:05 PM (VYkB5)
Posted by: guinsPen at August 12, 2006 11:35 AM (IqvU+)
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I can not figure out how babysitting the Iraqis while they have a civil war helps us fight the war on terrorism.
Posted by: ClearwaterConservative at August 12, 2006 02:07 PM (92quE)
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There is no civil war, they're just shooting each other.
Posted by: Mike Meyer at August 12, 2006 03:19 PM (rUHlk)
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It is not time for the SOD to resign. It's time to get the politicians out of the war. Let the SOD and the more than capable military get the job done. It's extremely hard on the military when 45% of the members of congress are betraying them on a daily basis. And they are betraying the members of the military and causing 75% of the deaths that occur in Iraq. If the idiots would shut up for 60 days the war would be over and the troops on the way home. With the lefties help, god help us all, it'll take 50 years and we'll still lose. Cut and Run is the option of cowards (democrats) and cowards only.
Posted by: Scrapiron at August 13, 2006 08:34 PM (Ffvoi)
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It's ALWAYS somebody else's fault, isn't it?
Posted by: Mike Meyer at August 14, 2006 12:28 AM (HCr2q)
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Flipside of the Ghost War
I spoke several days ago about the Ghosts in the Media Machine, and how media coverage of the war between Hezbollah and Israel in Lebanon is heavily slanted in favor of Hezbollah.
Scan the photos coming out of Hezbollah-controlled Lebanon, and you'll see and unending stream of dramatic photos of dead women and children and anguished rescue workers climbing through the remains of bombed-out residential buildings, and you will see heart-rending photos of toys in the rubble. You will see mourning. You will see pain. You will see a civilian infrastructure in tatters.
What you will not see, except in very rare cases, is Hezbollah.
There is a flipside to that coverage as well, coming from the
same photostreams. Photographers chronicling the war from the Israeli side of the conflict also seem to have their own agenda, geared toward the same end.
The photos of Israel's participation in this war are interesting in that they are heavily invested in showing the army component of the Israeli Defense Forces in an odd light.
There is an old maxim that says life in any military is very much a "hurry up and wait" prospect, where soldiers experience an existence that intersperses long periods of boredom with short, intense periods of combat. The photos coming out of Lebanon and northern Israel certainly capture the boredom aspect of military life, to an extent that seems contrived. The
same photostream that has provided the scenes of dead and dying Lebanese civilians and bombed out buildings shows a IDF army on the ground that seems to spend a considerable amount of time marching in an out of Lebanon, or sitting around waiting for something to happen. Time and again, the photos show soldiers that seem equally spent and bored... or worse. Certainly, a large part of the IDF soldier's life in this war is sitting around waiting for something to happen, but what this war is not providing scenes of IDF soldiers engaged in the intense, often close-quarters ground combat that has caused most of the IDF's casualties and many more Hezbollah casualties on the ground.
We do not see photographers following the IDF into action; we have not a single photojournalist comparable to a Michael Yon following IDF soldiers into
close combat. We have no
Kevin Sites embedded with IDF forces as they clear enemy villages (as a side note, while Sites was vilified by many for shooting the footage of a U.S. Marine killing a wounded insurgent in Fallujah, the Marines he was embedded with seem to have no hard feeling, and Sites himself certainly had
no animus towards the Marines). There are no stories telling of the bravery or selflessness that so many soldiers display in their character in the heart of war, no stories of individual courage, though almost certainly these events have transpired.
Instead, the media covering Israel's army seems focused on showing the bored, the wounded, and the dead. Proof is simple enough to find. At the time this post was written, the first 15 pages of the
Yahoo! News photostream showed 57 photos of Israeli soldiers and their families, some of them duplicates.
Eight photos showed Israeli military vehicles driving, nine showed Israeli soldiers walking. 15 pictures showed Israeli soldiers sitting, or otherwise stationary. Four photos showed wounded IDF soldiers being evacuated. Nineteen photos--the most of any category--were focused on the death of Israeli soldiers and the anguish of their families and friends. One photo showed an IDF artillery round being fired.
Only one photo--
a single, solitary photo--showed an IDF soldier in action.
If the IDF itself is not allowing media to accompany soldiers into Lebanon, this perception of a feeble, ineffective army is proof that the IDF itself does not know how to fight a postmodern media war, and the Israelis have only themselves to blame. If, however, the IDF will allow embedded photographers and journalists to accompany their army into Lebanon (and the photo linked above of an IDF soldier advancing in Qlai'a suggests that it does), and the media is refusing to either accompany IDF forces, or else refuses to distribute the stories and images they gather, then we have something else entirely.
An argument can be made that the media photos coming out of Lebanon and Israel of the IDF's ground forces are meant to show an ineffective force that spends most of its time sitting around doing very little when it isn't burying its soldiers. Obviously, "something" is occurring between the sitting and the dying, and the world's media is failing to tell that story.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
08:47 AM
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Maybe it's hard to get dramatic action shots of an army that does most of its killing with 155mm howitzers miles from the front line, F-16s making high-altitude bombing attacks, and unmanned drones piloted from who knows where (but presumably somewhere safe).
Methinks the IDF has developed an aversion to firefights.
Posted by: Dan at August 11, 2006 10:54 AM (VRb5p)
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Ignorant much, Dan?
Read up a bit on the news. The Israelis have been mounting commando raids and taking Hezbollah strongpoints with ground forces.
Posted by: Robert Crawford at August 11, 2006 01:58 PM (n5eDP)
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Dan,
You're right, those cowards, they are nothing like Hezbollah soldiers who personally carry the bombs into the marketpleces to blow the civilians up. And they take great pains in seeing that the hundreds of missles shot daily, hit only military targets.
Idiot.
Posted by: Pat at August 11, 2006 02:24 PM (6oYv5)
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Your ignorance is grandiose
Try reading some books about IDF instead of groaning stupidities
Yes,,I forgot that lefties hate books...
Posted by: DAN FROM EURABIA at August 11, 2006 03:28 PM (aEC+W)
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Ordinary, Average Guys
Noting really wrong with this photo out of Lebanon, but the caption is, well,
slightly misleading:
Palestinians, in the Bedawi refugee camp near the port city of Tripoli in north Lebanon, collect leaflets dropped by Israeli warplanes August 10, 2006. REUTERS/Omar Ibrahim
Just normal, everyday Palestinians. On a stroll with AK-47s assault rifles and military load-bearing equipment (LBE) to carry more rifle magazines and grenades, like they would in say, New York or London.
Reuters: the gift that keeps on giving.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
05:50 AM
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I find it ironic that lefturds support the right of Paelostinians to bear arms, which they use to kill innocent people, contrary to the law of the land in which they live, but do not support our right to bear arms for self-defense as enumerated in the Second Amendment.
Posted by: Improbulus Maximus at August 11, 2006 01:58 PM (v3I+x)
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Put dark sunglasses on the guy in the white hat, and he will look just like AK-47 guy at the burning pile of tires.
Posted by: Cmunk at August 11, 2006 02:15 PM (7teJ9)
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See, those peace-loving Palestinians are simply picking up the litter that the evil Joooooos dropped all over the place. Just one more reason why the left supports them. They care about our planet!
Posted by: wiserbud at August 11, 2006 02:48 PM (AQGeh)
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I'll bet they take those leaflets back to the refugee camp an over in to the town to make sure everybody gets the warning. Huh?
Posted by: B Moe at August 11, 2006 03:27 PM (0tmWI)
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Refugee camp? Wide open field lined with 20-year tree growth and apartment buildings is a refugee camp? Large, wide open field.
AK-47 with stylish top and designer blue jeans, in a 'refugee camp'?
Hair gel, the guy with the AK-47 is using hair gel, styled gel'd curls. In a refugee camp? Styled hair with gel in a refugee camp?
Am I missing something here?
Posted by: Akiva at August 11, 2006 03:47 PM (/+SKl)
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August 10, 2006
Stern, But Stupid
German Confederate Yankee reader Niko translates this response from a letter to the photo editor of Stern magazine, a major German news magazine. The Editor-in-Chief, Andreas Trampe, attacks the reader for questioning Stern about "Green Helmet" (article translation available at EU Referendum), the designated dead baby carrier for Hezbollah in Lebanon since 1996:
Dear Mr ...,
As Editor-in-Chief of Stern's Picturedesk I write this in response to
your harsh letter dating from August 5th, 2006. So what is it that you
don't like about our reporting? What do you find lurid about that
report [i.e. the initial report depicting Green Helmet as "some rescue
worker"]? In the first two pages we show the carnage and victims in
Qana, the next two depict the carnage and victims in Haifa. The
following picture pages are equally balanced, even more so the text
which, obviously, you didn't bother to read. There's no dispute that
the Israeli air raid on that building in Qana did happen, there's also
no dispute that it caused a lot of civilian victims. So what's wrong
about that? What about it appears to be staged? Did Hezbollah dare the
Israelis to conduct the air raid in your opinion? Did Hezbollah
initiate the bomb raid on their own? Did the Palestinian [sic!]
civilian casualties never happen? Where's the faking? We did not
conduct a story about Green Helmet Ali, even less so a lurid one! That
man is featured in just a single picture and a single caption. Even if
that man were indeed to parade dead children intentionally before the
eyes of the world, those children were dead nonetheless, killed in the
raid. And sadly, they won't rise again even when fervent supporters of
Israel's politics pull out red herrings to distract from actual
events.
Your accusations of anti-Semitism on our part, or that we were hoping
for the destruction of Israel, are the biggest bullshit I've heard in
a long time (leaving aside the fact that it's factually wrong).
Israeli victims are to be bemoaned equally, the death of people in
Haifa and Jerusalem is lamentable in the same way. But crude
conspiracy theories seem to be the latest trend. Thanks to upstanding
internet bloggers. They're sitting in Norway, England or Germany, and,
of course, they're much more intelligent, smart and incredulously
independent. They possess knowledge of remote locations and events,
they're capable of classifying complex matters and doing quick
research. There you go, brave new digital world !!!
We, however, prefer to do it the old way, we send journalists and
photographers around the world for large sums of money so that they
can speak on location and directly to the people. For instance, with
Green Helmet Ali, who will answer those allegations put out, and he'll
tell our readers where he's from, what's his name, and what actually
happened on that day in Qana. That, of course, you won't find
originally reported in internet blogs. What you will find, though, is
some super post from some smartass guy about how Green Helmet Ali once
again fooled the whole world because, in actual fact, he's a secret
agent of Hezbollah. I hope you enjoy the reading.
Andreas Trampe
stern Bildredaktion / stern picturedesk
PS What was it again about intelligence and ideology?
Andreas Trampe
Stern-Picturedesk
Am Baumwall 11
20444 Hamburg
Phone: +49-40-3703-4122
Fax: +49-40-3703-5685
Mail: Trampe.Andreas@stern.de
Editor-in-Chief Trampe tells us that the crude analysis and questions brought about by bloggers about the incident in Qana isn't up to the standards of the highly trained, well-paid media on the front lines of the war in Lebanon.
Perhaps Trampe should save his self-righteous indignation, at least until he can explain this video footage (from German TV, no less) of "Green Helmet" directing the body of a child to be pulled from an ambulance, placed on a stretcher, and then paraded in front of the media.
I have no doubt that the fine media reporters and photographers in Lebanon are paid "large sums of money" as the editor states, but you might think that someone being paid so much
might feel the obligation to tell the entire story, at least as long as they are unbiased, as these many Arab Muslim stringers covering a war with Israel certainly are. Of course, I'm just trying to clarify complex matters by doing quick research from another country, so what do I know?
(Note: replaced text link with Youtube video)
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
02:46 PM
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Meanwhile, in the Psychosphere...
As details emerge on today's foiled mass murder plot from members of the Religion of Peace, most people are thankful that the attacks were thwarted and that many of those involved in the plot have either been arrested or are on the run.
Of course, that would be most
normal people.
The Jim Jones wing of the Democratic Party smells a conspiracy.
Although it may not be a "cry wolf" situation, I am skeptical because of the timing.
Granted the timing would have been better for BushCo, Inc. for this to break prior to Holy Joe's spanking in CT, it still fits in the every other year (just before elections) pattern of TERROR!!!! alerts.
Or am too cynical?
Comment by BuzzMon
Yeah, yeah, yeah, even if this is real, the timing is a political event. (9/11 redux.) I'm both skeptical and jaded. Bojinko!
Comment by eCAHNomics
Damn Brits. They weren't supposed to run this op until two weeks before the election!
Comment by Castor Troy
From the latest AP story, he're the key line:
"Officials said the government has been aware of the nature of the threat for several days."
In other words, instead of warning people a few days ago when they would have been out of harm's way, they created maximum inconvenience at a time of maximum danger for maximum effect after setting the whole thing up with tony snow's press conference yesterday.
Comment by angry young man
I guess the 2006 election season has now officially begun
Comment by DeepDarkDiamond
These comments are just a few representative excerpts from one
popular liberal blog, but they mirror the comments made by
many others.
It would seem a sizable portion of the Far Left thinks George Bush and Tony Blair engineered a massive al Qaeda terrorist plot to punish liberals for selecting Ned Lamont in the Connecticut Democratic Primary. What, you haven't heard that one yet? Don't worry.
You will. They did.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
10:40 AM
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That mindset makes no sense to me.
It's too early to make an impact on the Nov election.
It's too late to take away anything from the CT election.
It happened in England, not here so it doesn't reflect on our DHS but thiers. (Good Job Brits by the way, keep up the good work).
How does this exactly help BushCo? (Other than we caught some more bad guys proving there is terrorists out there that is).
Posted by: Retired Navy at August 10, 2006 10:54 AM (lNB+R)
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It must be nice to go from point 'A' to point 'B' and never have your feet touch the ground... but then, again, having to constantly polish that Plexiglas belly button must get awfuly tiring.
Posted by: Old Soldier at August 10, 2006 01:33 PM (X2tAw)
3
This post is in violation of Kevin's Law:
"If you're forced to rely on random blog commenters to make a point about the prevalence of some form or another of disagreeable behavior, you've pretty much made exactly the opposite point."
See this post by Kevin Drum for a fuller explanation:
http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/archives/individual/2006_08/009318.php
Posted by: Nate at August 10, 2006 02:46 PM (UlkGh)
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"Kevin's Law," huh? Did you actually read it, Nate?
...if the best evidence of wackjobism you can find is a few anonymous nutballs commenting on a blog, then the particular brand of wackjobism you're complaining about must not be very widespread after all.
This wasn't a "few anonymous nutballs" when I grabbed these quotes from the Carpetbagger report, it was a prevailing theme, even though the blog proprietor said nothing in his post to prompt them into going this way. They chose to be conspiracy theorists when completely unprompted.
What about John from Americablog? He isn’t an anonymous person in the comments, but a very popular left wing blogger—mainstream for your side.
The corollary to Kevin’s Law is Bob’s Razor, which is simply this:
When the evidence of “whackjobism” isn’t a few anonymous comments, but is instead a widely held belief that largely goes unchallenged within that community, then the most logical assumption is that that belief is widely held by that community.
The long and the short of it is that "Kevin's Law," by its own definition, doesn't apply.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at August 10, 2006 03:13 PM (g5Nba)
5
It would seem a sizable portion of the Far Left thinks George Bush and Tony Blair engineered a massive al Qaeda terrorist plot to punish liberals for selecting Ned Lamont in the Connecticut Democratic Primary.
Sheesh! These people are so self-absorbed, all about them and their issues. I wonder when their leaders will get around to telling them that GWB IS NOT RUNNING again. And I can't wait until they catch up to the press conference from the Brits this morning saying that this terror plot had been under close surveillance for months, including tracking thru financial records
Posted by: Sara (Squiggler) at August 10, 2006 03:47 PM (FwPlP)
6
Whenever something like this happens, the timing is always believed to help Bush. People cast around for some reason why the supposed burst in popularity it gives him came at some critical moment. The critical moment might be something happening legislatively, something happening militarily, something happening electorally, or something that helps our foreign policy PR with a key ally. Whenever the terrorists illustrate their evil, there's always something around that can be waved to show that it benefits Bush.
There is only one conclusion to draw from this. Reality benefits Bush.
Posted by: Assistant Village Idiot at August 10, 2006 07:44 PM (EabgM)
7
Bush and everybody aside, we still have Aug 22-27 to be concerned with, Muslims deal in numerology and that's the night Muhammed got on a strange horse and there was a bright light over Jerusalem when he vaulted into the air and up to heaven. (he was really dead in a 9 year olds arms) but so what, if it is a good day to explode a bomb over Israel, so what.
I'm glad Israel is fighting against it (Islam that is). I heard a submarine or two off of the coast of Iran. Get those virgins ready, there might have to be millions of them.. Think of Allah's costs in make-up and Burkas?
Posted by: Lansing at August 10, 2006 10:32 PM (BJYNn)
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I question the timing. Of the Democrats. Fresh off a primary victory in a solidly blue state where there candidate received a whopping 52% of the vote, the loony left immediately drinks deeply from the my-head-is-in-my-ass Kool-Aid, puts on its Helter-Skelter mask and then proceeds to shriek nonsensically like a spider monkey on crystal meth.
And this is how they think to drum up public support just when things might be breaking their way politically? Apparently Karl Rove's reach is longer than even I had thought.
Posted by: physics geek at August 11, 2006 08:21 AM (KqeHJ)
9
Clearly Rove is falling down on the job. If he was on top of things this plot would have been revealed the day before the primary, not the day after. Obviously an error like this is deserving of a frog-march.
Posted by: Jane at August 11, 2006 08:47 AM (uGLhr)
10
The navel gazers see only connections having to do with their guilt-ridden, America sucks, and highly narcisistic view of the world. I should know, I used to be a far-lefty, someone who put myself way above main-stream politics.
Posted by: Christie at August 11, 2006 11:05 AM (zho4B)
11
Of course the lefties think this was staged to help Bush. Every time Clinton's poll numbers dwindled or Ken Star was preparing news conference, our military would start bombing someone. They don't like it because it is something they think only Democrats should be allowed to do. Like gerrymandering districts.
Posted by: Tom D at August 11, 2006 12:13 PM (lSJnL)
12
If the London incident is a real plot to blow up planes then it should be taken very seriously.
However, discovering a plot to blow up 20 airplanes using unspecified "liquid explosives" in an act that is “suggestive of al Qaeda” and happening a day after the defeat of a pro-war politician is a little too convenient.
Posted by: ClearwaterConservative at August 12, 2006 07:50 AM (92quE)
13
happening a day after the defeat of a pro-war politician is a little too convenient.
Britain, Italy, and Pakistan are all Republican enablers? They conspired with the Bush administration to punish the Dem party for defeating a pro-war politician?
Ok. Got it.
Posted by: SouthernRoots at August 12, 2006 04:22 PM (jHBWL)
14
I don't think anybody claimed that Bush created the plot. The idea was simply that the administration pushed for prematurely revealing the plot for political purposes. Bush has exploited many crises to advance his agenda based on fear and threat.
Posted by: Dale at August 16, 2006 04:08 PM (2aU7t)
15
ConYank
I'm flattered that you used my post. And I fail to see how anything my fellow Carpetbaggers I said hasn't proven true. In fact, the White House has been thrown into an increasingly ugly light.
--The White House encouraged the Brits to move even though the supposed terrorists weren't an imminent threat (no plane tix, no passports) and the Brits felt that sustained surveillance would be valuable.
--The night before the roundup, the Bush Administration and its mouthpieces trumpeted the fact that a vote for Lamont was a vote for Osama.
--None of the people arrested has been charged.
--Many of the restrictions on travellers have been lifted.
--This type of attack was predicted years ago, but nothing was done to prevent it. These suspects have been under surveillance for months and no precautions were put in place.
That Olbermann can show a dozen instances when precisely this type of fear marketing was done to promote the War on Terror (TM), only proves that this is a hoary campaign--and one that is proving increasingly ineffective. Bush remains in the mid-30s, which is probably his political specific gravity.
As to those who don't understand our mindset, you also don't seem to understand that you are Barnum's "some of the people all of the time."
Posted by: angry young man at August 16, 2006 05:53 PM (2yIW/)
16
Let me add this from one of your own, someone who frustrates with his desperate attempts to believe in Bush despite all evidence to the contrary, Andrew Sullivan. It seems that even he no longer has any love for him:
"The British authorities have produced no evidence so far. If the only evidence they have was from torturing someone in Pakistan, then they have nothing that can stand up in anything like a court. I wonder if this story is going to get more interesting. I wonder if Lieberman’s defeat, the resilience of Hezbollah in Lebanon, and the emergence of a Hezbollah-style government in Iraq had any bearing on the decision by Bush and Blair to pre-empt the British police and order this alleged plot disabled. I wish I didn’t find these questions popping into my head. But the alternative is to trust the Bush administration.
"Been there. Done that. Learned my lesson."
Posted by: angry young man at August 16, 2006 07:06 PM (2yIW/)
17
"However, discovering a plot to blow up 20 airplanes using unspecified "liquid explosives" in an act that is “suggestive of al Qaeda” and happening a day after the defeat of a pro-war politician is a little too convenient" (from ClearwaterConservative)
Unfortunately, these guys DO NOT keep written records of their deeds or orders for an investigator to search. They DO NOT file their acts and DO NOT act as we are used to by our own hierarchy. In case of street gangs, do you expect the police to come up with written orders of aggression against a rival gang? Or to produce written evidence on the pipe bombs used to blow the head off the rival gang's leader? The guys we're dealing with are in the same biological species - only worse. Thus, relying on "shared info" can - and WILL, sometimes - produce blunders, misconducts or false allegations regarding an individual.
But, since the terrorists seem to know all too well how to use our system (both legal and civil) against us, what solution do YOU propose to counter the plainjacking (or any other "deed" they might plot)? I can't see a better one - not now, anyway.
Posted by: cottonbud at August 17, 2006 03:57 AM (60u/X)
18
I'm flattered that you used my post. And I fail to see how anything my fellow Carpetbaggers I said hasn't proven true.
Oh really?
I guess the fact that MI5 has this evidence does nothing to quiet the nutroots:
infiltrated the bomb factory itself and found both the liquid explosives and the detonators;had planted bugs in the homes of the terrorists, capturing house of evidence on tapecompiled video, audio, and photo evidence from on-going, 24-hour surrveillance of the suspects
They did everything but get their easily-acquired fake passports and buy tickets, and I think that having explosives and hours of recorded evidence, if true, is quite enough to put them in jail for quite a long time.
And for the record, Andrew Sullivan can claim to be a conservative if he wants (he could claim to be a an Eskimo Pie, but that doesn't make him dessert, just crazy), but a simple reading of his collected works of say, the last six months, reveals a man who is anything but conservative, and increasingly wandering further out into the uncharted wasteland's of Alex Jones fizzled mind.
Feel free to claim him as your own. Few real conservatives will.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at August 17, 2006 10:30 AM (g5Nba)
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Major Terror Plot Foiled
By now, I'm relatively certain you've heard of a immense terror plot that has been foiled in Great Britain, where between 6-10 international flights (some early reports stated as many as 20) from Great Britain to the United States were targeted for attack. The plotters were apparently intent on using liquid explosives disguised as beverages to detonate the flights in mid-air.
United, American, and Continental flights to New York, Washington DC, and California were specificly mentioned as being targeted. As many as 50 suspected terrorists may have been involved in the plot, and it is not clear if all have been captured. Follow media reports and blog reaction to this story at
Pajamas Media and
Hot Air.
Ace has good round up as well.
So, what do we make of this?
First, we're still short of a lot of details. What we can say with a fair degree of certainty is that a group of Muslim terrorists attempted to carry out the mass murder of western civilians on a scale that, if it had been successfully carried out, could have exceeded the carnage of September 11, 2001. The number of casualties would have been determined not only by the number of people onboard the targeted planes, but also where the terrorists decided to detonate the planes. A bomb detonated on a plane over the Atlantic would most likely kill only those on board; a plane detonated shortly after takeoff or landing on a flight path over populated areas could have the potential to take lives on the ground, as did American Airlines
Flight 587 when it crashed into Belle Harbor, Queens, after taking of from JFK International Airport in New York on November 12, 2001.
We also know that this plot is very similar to Khalid Shaikh Mohammed's disrupted al Qaeda plot to bomb 11 planes in the mid 1990s.
More as this develops.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
09:54 AM
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No one should be surprised to learn that the fools at the Democratic Underground are already referring to this as a phony story to gin up support for Blair and Bush.
What a bunch of left-wing kooks!
Posted by: Retired Spy at August 10, 2006 10:03 AM (Xw2ki)
2
Now this means we have one more thing to do in the security line, drink from your water bottle. And you will not be allowed to bring in liquids. So security in ramped up.
Wrong.
Even now with the hysteria that only government can cause, you could bring just about any type of weapon or explosive on a plane. This case is a good example of the fact that you have people trying to find and use all the angles to hurt us. More security will not help, just as it did nothing to stop 9/11. The danger to us is that we a lulled into believing that it is doing something and watching as our rights are systematically stripped away.
The answer. Profiling. That is the number one short term answer to the security issue. The long term solution is to eliminate the ability of the average Muslim to travel, enter the country, or carry on in a normal manner in this or any other country. In short define our war as not against terrorism but against Islam. Our leaders don't seem to get the message. This is racist and hate filled, so maybe I will be offered a seat in the UN.
I can guarantee that if something happens to those I care about, then war will be declared on the Muslim population!!
Posted by: David Caskey at August 10, 2006 11:51 AM (6wTpy)
3
Whoa, David. That is really a scary thought. Just condemn and attack ALL Muslims?
I think I will just stay home or drive my car. I may get caught in the cross fire on an airliner, caught between you and a Muslim.
Posted by: Retired Spy at August 10, 2006 12:43 PM (Xw2ki)
4
They've already pretty much declared it on us.
To the PC croud, yes there probably are some that mean us no harm, but as far as Profiling goes, I agree with David and my mind won't change until something else comes along to show me different.
That also doesn't mean not to watch out for regular loons either.
Posted by: Retired Navy at August 10, 2006 01:02 PM (elhVA)
5
I agree with David and Retired Navy. So when do we invade England and wipe out the largest non-middle eastern population of Muslims? I'm thinking not until after the mid-term elections...
Posted by: matt a at August 11, 2006 08:28 AM (GvAmg)
6
In the us , a group of homeless , unemployed , known mentally ill young black men , were infiltrated by a federal agent;
who suggested a the sears tower in chicago be targeted for destruction as sybmolism against america
these men having no education, money , negligble history of violent crimes, ammunitons guns etc
thought this would be a good idea, and were arrested;
in the febrile american mind this registers as " a foiled terroist plot'
i am not a liberal
Posted by: mzzike at August 12, 2006 06:17 PM (y6n8O)
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August 09, 2006
Lamonticide
As I hoped they would, Democratic primary voters in Connecticut unleashed "nedrenaline" on an unsuspecting American public last night, as the single-issue candidate Ned Lamont beat long-time Democratic Senator Joe Liebermann by four percentage points.
Liberals are of course loving this, one even dropping in a taunting comment in my
last post on the primary race,"Scared to death, aren't you?"
Err, not quite.
The Lamont victory, which may be known in years to come as the "Lamonticide" of the Democratic Party, is precisely what conservatives would have hope for if we were voting (and judging by the number of new voters and voters who switched parties prior ot the election, we may have) in Connecticut last night. Lamont's vicotry speech chant of "troops out now!" with Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton over either shoulder couldn't have been scripted better if it had been written by Ann Coulter and filmed by Rush Limbaugh. It was the perfect re-introduction of a McGovernite Democratic party as it would occur in Karl Rove's dreams.
Shlock waves rippled across the country almost immediately. A
giddy Kos immediately said Senator Joe Lieberman is not a real Democrat, and proclaimed he should to be stripped of his committee appointments.
New York Times editorial this morning
fatally misunderestimated the average American's intelligence as it tried to label the Daily Kos/Code Pink/Cindy Sheehan fringe "moderates," while fellow "moderate" Michael Moore, in all of his bloated myopia,
issued a threat to all Democratic congressmen and senators that they better play by the rules of the radical left, or else.
Ned Lamont's win has galvanized the netroots and encouraged the progressive movement's most partisan fringe to bring forth their most
barbaric yawps.
It is, in short, a
disaster in the making. Moderate voters to retch as the netroot's most vile proponents are thrust on stage. By the time November rolls around and moderate Democrats and independents flee the now-radicalized left that has run roughshod over the exclusionist Democratic Party, the radicals will too late learn that the active ingredient in "nedrenaline" is
syrup of ipecac.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
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Speaking of the two stoogies, why were Jesse and Al there in the first place? Neither of them live in Connecticut. I know why - "we help you now, you help u$ later" If elected, Lamont will help fund some of their causes for their support in the primary. Connecticutians will not only see more money disappear before it reaches their wallets but it will be going out of state as well. If this happens, I'll be laughing my *ss off. I hope Neddy gives all the taxpayers' money to Al and Jesse. LOL.
Posted by: bws at August 09, 2006 08:15 PM (i1im8)
2
I'm sure you're just about to write the same story about Rep Schwarz who lost a primary to his hard-right opponent, right?
Oh, and I'm sure that since this is such a "disaster" for the Democrats, the Republicans should have no trouble holding on to their majorities in both houses come November.
I mean if they lose seats, how, exactly is this a disaster? I await your (cribbed from some of the more intelligent conservative blogs) answers.
Posted by: beedlebaum at August 10, 2006 04:27 PM (vENsJ)
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Ghosts in the Media Machine
Bloggers—and to a much lesser extent some media outlets—have paid considerable attention to specific examples of media manipulation in the war being fought between Hezbollah and the IDF in Lebanon and Israel, but we seem be under-covering the overall framing of the media's coverage, particularly when it comes to the subject matter chosen for coverage.
This comes into sharp relief when contrasted against the coverage we've become used to from the war in Iraq, particularly as it relates to the media coverage allowed and provided by two different insurgencies in Lebanon's Hezbollah and Iraq's predominately Sunni insurgency.
In Iraq, we've become somewhat used to embedded reporters reporting from both sides of the conflict with a fairly wide latitude to operate. Stringers, both print media and photographers, have occasionally embedded within the insurgency, providing coverage from ambushes and sniper's nests alike. The insurgents themselves often seem to be media hungry, filming operations themselves and often releasing the tapes to the media or producing them on DVDs for public consumption in Iraq and throughout the Middle East.
By and large, the vast majority of video reporting allowed and encouraged by the Iraqi insurgency is combat-related. IED ambushes are particularly popular, often released as montages set to Islamist music as propaganda videos. The Iraqi insurgents have often seemed intent on portraying themselves as rebel forces actively waging a war for the people, whether or not the people would always agree.
Hezbollah, however, seems to be fighting a different kind of media war.
Hezbollah has far more control over their battlespace than does the Iraqi insurgency, and has a much tighter rein on the media reporting coming out of Lebanon. Mainstream media outlets have let this be know albeit comparatively quietly, as I mentioned in the comments of Jefferson Morely's
Washington Post blog entry,
The Qana Conspiracy Theory:
Anderson Cooper has already admitted that his crew has been handled by Hezbollah media minders, and CNN's Nic Robertson has openly admitted his coverage on July 18 was stage-managed by Hezbollah from start to finish. Times' Christopher Allbritton has said that Hezbollah has copies of every journalist's passport, and has "hassled many and threatened one" to cover-up what journalists have seen of Hezbollah's rocket launching operations. CBS's Elizabeth Palmer admits to being handled by Hezbollah, and being allowed to only see what Hezbollah wants them to see. They are the voices of a few, expressing the experiences of the many.
Israel Insider chronicled these disturbing examples of media control, but the media at large has been loath to make the level of Hezbollah "minding" over their reporting widely known.
With this control and the apparent complicity of many media stringers both Arab and western, Hezbollah has chosen to fight a completely different kind of media war than they one we have seen in Iraq. A review of the Yahoo! photostreams (compilations of various media photographers' work released throughout the day) coming out of
Iraq and
Lebanon paint two very different pictures. While the Iraqi insurgency often sought to crave media attention (especially when it was more active as an insurgency in 2004 and 2005, as opposed to today's more conflict between Sunni and Shiiite Iraqis), Hezbollah's tightly-controlled media war seeks to portray Hezbollah itself as something of a ghost.
Scan the photos coming out of Hezbollah-controlled Lebanon, and you'll see and unending stream of dramatic photos of dead women and children and anguished rescue workers climbing through the remains of bombed-out residential buildings, and you will see heart-rending photos of toys in the rubble. You will see mourning. You will see pain. You will see a civilian infrastructure in tatters.
What you will not see, except in very rare cases, is Hezbollah.
The "Party of God," well-known for their parades of armed masked men in the past, have vanished into the ether. You will see no Hezbollah fighters brandishing their weapons with bravado. You will see no photos of Hezbollah's rocket launchers or rockets prepared to fire upon Israel's civilian population. You will see no photographs of shattered launchers or weapons caches or even fighting aged men amid the rubble. The media itself quietly reports that anyone who does take such pictures may be killed, though you wouldn't know it from the amount of attention that disturbing detail has received in the press.
Hezbollah is fighting the Victim's War, hiding behind civilians that they set up as targeted pawns by firing rockets from inside Lebanon's villages, cites, and towns, from outside apartment buildings, hospitals and schools in residential neighborhoods.
It is a war of cowards, largely covered by sympathetic Arab Muslim stringers and their Hezbollah minders who determine what can and what cannot be reported; a war in which the "professional" media is all too complicit.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
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CY- your are right on. Keep up the good work. Your blog is now on my daily list. Thanks.
Posted by: Evinx at August 09, 2006 10:48 AM (TK7OU)
2
The fact that your reporting is 'managed' by someone outside the organization is one of the most essential aspects of the actual reporting. A disclaimer should be required just as if your wife was a subject of the story - the reporter has a bias, to stay alive, that impacts the story. That seems like a source of bias just as strong as when writing about one's wife.
Good work on this CY! keep the pressure on. Reporting should be free, and when it can't be everyone seeing the piece should know what made it possible - complicity with terrorists.
Posted by: Sweetie at August 09, 2006 04:57 PM (lXpPq)
3
>> "What you will not see, except in very rare cases, is Hezbollah."
I think you are right.
However, the following may be an exception.
Aljazeera Flying Object downed by Hezbollah missile
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MJsN2eGiOyM&mode=related&search=
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MJsN2eGiOyM
In mid-July, Aljazeera caught on tape something falling out of the sky over Beruit. It seemed to be spontaneous and not staged. The second part of the video clip shows the fallen object on the ground in some brush next to what looks like a service station.
The interesting part is the group of 5 man who appear to be working as a team. They are in the Aljazeera video clip. All are in civilian clothes and are men of fighting age.
Whether or not they are Hezbollah combattants, or supporters, I cannot say with certainty. But take a closer look and tell me what you see.
* * *
1. A bearded man in a dark vest appears next to the downed object which looks like a fuselage (a large pipe-shapped object) with a blast hole in it.
2. Alongside him, a barefooted man in shorts and white undershirt seems to be inspecting the object and acts as if he knows the other men in the group.
3. A balding man, with moustache, also comes down to the object. He makes a call on his cell phone while the other two men move away.
4. A young man carrying a blue vest and a blue helmet appears behind the moustached man. He moves to one side and we can see that he is led by the barefooted man to a place several yards behind the object, and away from the Aljazeera camera. The two stand behind what looks like a fence; they don't appear to be inspecting the object. They look like they moved away to talk.
Meanwhile the Aljazeera camera kept rolling. Then there is a jump cut. The young man reappears and walks past the camera and up some steps toward a vehicle. Close behind the barefooted man follows. The young man passes the man in the dark vest and the moustached man.
5. A man with a small video camera is at the vehicle's driverside. He is smoking a cigarette and talking across the roof of the car.
Beside him, at the passenger door, the young man is quiet but appears to be involved the object of the conversation. The barefooted man has followed them to the vehicle; he moves around the rear to the other side and appears to gesture toward the young man. That seems to have settled the discussion. The video man finishes his cigarette and appears to get into the car. The young man, too. The camera shows that they had been in conference with the moustached man with the cell phone.
My impression is that the barefooted man was "senior" to the young man. It looked to me that he had taken the young man aside to talk about something; then at the car he seemed to give permission, or reassurances, that it was okay for the young man to go with the other men in the car. The young man did not appear to do much talking but expected to go along.
His blue vest and blue helment were UN-blue but I did not see any UN markings.
The vested man and the barefooted man both appeared to be familiar with the fallen object. That is, they seemed to size it up pretty quickly. That's my impression from the body language. Also, in tandem, they seemed to direct the Aljazeera cameraman to the blast hole in the side of the object. They did not seem to be concerned about any danger -- explosives or whatever. The object did not appear to be on fire or hot to the touch.
The moustached man and the video man looked like a pair in that the video man was driving the car that he was getting into. Possibly they were with Aljazeera. Maybe scouts? The first part of the video spotted the object as it fell. But the latter part of the clip was at the site where the object landed.
The vested man seemed to move away and I don't think I saw him in the video clip after his first appearance. The young man and the barefooted man appear like a pair. It is possible that the young man hitched a ride to wherever the moustached man's car was heading; or maybe they agreed to drop him someplace.
It is uncertain, but this video clip seems to show three elements working together.
First, the Aljazeera cameraman put the team on video. Second, the moustached man was accompanied by the video man who looked like the driver of their vehicle. Third, the young man joined them after being instructed by the barefooted man.
Speculation: Could be pretty innocent. The barefooted man called-in the location of the fallen object. The moustached man got to it with his Aljazeera cameraman. His driver carried an additional video camera. The young man may have been an "emergency worker" of some sort. The barefooted man did not look like he was dressed for running around so maybe he got the young man a ride instead of taking the time to get dressed to drive him himself.
On the other hand ...
Posted by: F. Rottles at August 10, 2006 01:31 AM (jcZ2c)
4
Re: UN blue vest and helmet sans markings?
Not all countrys involved with the UN have markings.
Dave
Posted by: Dave at August 10, 2006 06:14 AM (T5XyM)
5
Hezzbollah media control! Aided no doubt by all those Arab-Americans I see shaking hands at the Academy Awards!
Or maybe the Arab-American spy on the submarine?
If there are credible charges to be made, these ain't them.
Posted by: skip at August 10, 2006 07:55 AM (JxU2K)
6
The video shows dark piling clouds of smoke not unlike what would be produced above a burning tire dump or from a source of rubber/oil.
The second part of the video shows the site of the pipe-shaped object with no smoke cloud and only a very small patch of flames. The flames are easy to miss. The nearby vegetation did not look burned or even singed. There are neatly stacked tiles right beside it. If it dropped where the camera filmed it, this object fell pretty harmlessly.
At the end of the video clip, the camera follows the men to their vehicle and the cloud of smoke can be see in the distance.
The pipe-shaped object appears to have fallen a mile or so from the place that caused the dark clouds of smoke.
Posted by: F. Rottles at August 10, 2006 09:10 AM (jcZ2c)
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Last night the same thought struck me. We have seen no pictures titled "Hizballah fighters fire katusha rockets at Israel" or "Hizballah fighters killed by Israeli bombs."
Its all been dead children and crying civilians. The MSM is being used to carry enemy propganda, and they don't care.
Posted by: monkeyboy at August 10, 2006 09:42 AM (w4rJE)
8
Hezzbollah media control
Yeah, Hezbollah does control the media in Southern Lebanon. If you're a reporter and you've got Mohammed Al-Jihadi, the local Hezbollah morale officer standing behind your shoulder holding an AK, the message is pretty clear. We've already seen CNN's reporters intimidated into one-sided coverage; they later even admitted it.
Posted by: Jordan at August 10, 2006 02:58 PM (GKMZm)
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August 08, 2006
Body Shop Bombed?
This is just surreal:
The caption reads:
Lebanese civil defense rescuers, try to remove two blanket-wrapped bodies, found trapped under debris and concrete of the destroyed buildings, attacked late Monday by Israeli airstrike, in the southern Beirut suburb of Chiah, Lebanon, Tuesday Aug. 8, 2006. The raid on the Muslim southern suburb next to a Christian neighborhood killed at least 15 people, police officials said. (AP Photo/Hussein Malla)
The bodies were found
already wrapped in blankets under the debris of the building.
I'm trying to think of rational reasons that Lebanese would keep pre-packaged corpses in their homes, and I'm coming up with
nothing. Nada.
Zip.
One irrational explanation is that some bodies are being saved by Hezbollah to use in photo ops at a later date, and that the Hezbollah Body Shop (for lack of a better term) got hit, and buried those that should already have been buried.
But that's just nuts. Hezbollah would never use corpses to stage a media event.
Ever.
Update: Same photographer, different angle,
similarly-worded caption:
Lebanese civil defense rescuer directs a buldozer as he stands next to a two blanket-wrapped bodies, center, found trapped under the destroyed buildings, which were attacked late Monday in an Israeli airstrike, in the southern Beirut suburb of Chiah, Lebanon, Tuesday Aug. 8, 2006. The raid on the Muslim southern suburb next to a Christian neighborhood killed at least 15 people, police officials said. (AP Photo/Hussein Malla)
And
another.
So either he really does mean to imply the bodies were blanket-wrapped when found, or his preciseness with the English language is right up there with Adnan Hajj's PhotoShop skills.
Further Update It seems Malla was also one of the photographers that took one of the pictures of
Twice-Bombed Lady, and was
hanging out with with fired Reuters stringer Adnan Hajj, he of the
questionable llama picture, among
others.
Update: Dig this.
From Brian Denton, a photographer in Lebanon, at photography forum
LightStalkers:
i have been working in lebanon since all this started, and seeing the behavior of many of the lebanese wire service photographers has been a bit unsettling. while hajj has garnered a lot of attention for his doctoring of images digitally, whether guilty or not, i have been witness to the daily practice of directed shots, one case where a group of wire photogs were choreographing the unearthing of bodies, directing emergency workers here and there, asking them to position bodies just so, even remove bodies that have already been put in graves so that they can photograph them in peoples arms. these photographers have come away with powerful shots, that required no manipulation digitally, but instead, manipulation on a human level, and this itself is a bigger ethical problem.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
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Move your rockets to a specific urban location.
Cart along a couple of corpses.
shoot off rockets to kill Israelis,
and reveal your position.
Run away.
Israeli attacks the recently vacated position,
and look,
we see dead people.
Bad bad Israelis!
Posted by: bains at August 08, 2006 04:08 PM (oemUk)
2
To be fair, it doesn't specify that "blanketwrapped bodies" were found under debris, though that is one explanation. Since we have to assume that the photographer is sympathetic to Hizbollah, though, we must also assume that he wouldn't have included that detail if the caption is meant to be read in the manner in which you read it.
Posted by: DaveS at August 08, 2006 04:19 PM (kC3nL)
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Ooops... that came out wrong. To be fair, it doesn't specify that the bodies were wrapped in blankets at the time that they were found.
Posted by: DaveS at August 08, 2006 04:26 PM (kC3nL)
4
Hmm. The bodies are not wrapped in a way that suggests the victims were sleeping. Well, let's take a look at Hezbollah, shall we?
1) Hezbollah controls press access to the area. No matter when or where -- they control it.
2) Hezbollah has been proven to make up stories before. (Jenin, among others.)
3) The press operates out of fear. That is why so few N. American presses ran the Mohammed cartoons. Remember the Boston Globe's admission on that one? Hezbollah deals in fear. The press goes along.
4) Terror organizations use the media to get across their messages. Bin Laden's tapes, to Iraq beheading videos, and on and on.
5) There is no absolute truth in Islam. Lying is encouraged (takkiya) if it beneftis Muslims in the time of war.
Now, with all this as a backdrop, let's just say that Hezbollah's credibility is extremely low. Anyone who swallows what they've been spoon-feeding the gulliable Western press should be ashamed.
Posted by: InRussetShadows at August 08, 2006 04:56 PM (dYwY/)
5
What makes this more interesting is the fact that the Israelis are leafletting areas before they bomb them to allow civilians to escape....
Would that same information make it easier to know where to stash a few handy corpses?
Nah... that's too paranoid of me. I reject my own suggestion.
Posted by: Lokki at August 08, 2006 05:08 PM (wSBsc)
6
Whatever Israel does, the neocon damage control team rolls in to nibble at the edges of the story's credibility. But there are ALWAYS hole in every narrative, and the notion that the Arabs have invented wartime spin must cause many a glass to clink behind closed doors in Hollywood.
Are we really being asked to believe that the Palestinians have an advantage in the US media? That defies reason by any head count, whether on television. the newspapers or in the movies. I cannot even name a prominent arab-american voice anywhere in the US media.Yet Wolf Blitzer, formerly of AIPAC, is our "honest broker"?" Please!
Posted by: skip at August 08, 2006 05:44 PM (JxU2K)
7
But there are ALWAYS hole in every narrative
If they're fabricates ones there certainly is.
Truth OTOH stands on its own and is irrefutable -- because it is absolute.
Posted by: Purple Avenger at August 08, 2006 06:05 PM (c/xwT)
8
The interesting part is the complete lack of attention on how the Hezzies orchestrate these civilian casualties while focusing their fire purely on Israeli civilians.
Typical MSM/TSM bias, of course, but their ability to focus solely on the Hezzie/Arab propaganda without even the littlest sop to objective reality or the basics of civilized war must require a lot of effort.
And, skippy, bias isn't the same as identity politics. Ya gotta get your memes straight.
Posted by: iconoclast at August 08, 2006 09:52 PM (Jpc2l)
9
Judging from all the photos that came out of the Qana incident, one can safely assume that these bodies were not wrapped in the field, right after being located. If anything, the bodies would have been paraded for at least an hour, making sure that any photographer within a 3-mile radius got a shot.
Posted by: dna at August 09, 2006 12:21 PM (xjpGM)
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My understanding is that Hezbolleh has a special corpse-launching mortar stationed at a central location in each major city in Lebanon. Whenever an Israeli rocket lands, Hezbolleh launches a couple of prepared bodies in a high arc over the city to the recently-hit building. The bodies land, and the force of the impact creates "wounds" consistent with being at ground zero when a missile lands.
I mean, it's the only reasonable possibility.
Posted by: Michael at August 09, 2006 01:24 PM (73MDr)
11
skip wrote:
Whatever Israel does, the neocon damage control team rolls in to nibble at the edges of the story's credibility. But there are ALWAYS hole in every narrative, and the notion that the Arabs have invented wartime spin must cause many a glass to clink behind closed doors in Hollywood.
Admit it -- after the first picture of a child's body in Qana, you broke down, started crying, and went into the fetal position. After that, you accepted anything that your Hizballords said.
Anyway, if you were capable of independed thinking, then you would've come to wonder what's up with White Shirt, and his camera posings. There are plenty of photos out there, but you can see what I'm talking about by looking at the pictures posted on EU Referendum. Notice how White Shirt doesn't display any emotion while in the "basement", and the two red cross guys are carrying out the girl, while later, he can be seen running with the girl and putting on an anguished face. Following that, another guy takes a picture with her.
Just keep babbeling about neo-cons while ignoring facts.
Posted by: dna at August 09, 2006 02:15 PM (xjpGM)
12
Maybe they were saving them for dinner?

Posted by: Dave at August 10, 2006 05:53 AM (T5XyM)
13
You know, instead of trying to manufacture conspiracy theories you might just realise that of course those corpses were only wrapped in blankets after they were found, which is a perfectly natural thing to do. Bog standard procedure during any disaster, natural or IDF caused, is to spare the victims some dignity by wrapping them up before moving.
I can't believe I just spent thirty seconds havint to explain this to you.
Posted by: Martin Wisse at August 10, 2006 05:56 AM (Nggyy)
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Um, one rational explanation is that, um, the caption says that the bodies were found trapped under debris, and also that they were wrapped in blankets, but does not, er, in any way specify that they were already, um, wrapped in blankets when they were found trapped under debris.
Or wait, try it this way. There's a photo that shows a cheeseburger with lettuce and tomato that I made on the grill and ate for lunch:
Confederate Yankee: “I’m trying to think of a rational explanation for how someone could put an object made of beef, lettuce, tomatoes, cheese, and a bun on a grill, yet somehow only the beef shows signs of frying. I’m coming up with nothing. Also, how is it possible to take a picture of a cheeseburger that is already eaten?”
There’s a Claremont fellowship in store for Mr. Yankee, no foolin’.
Posted by: blackshire at August 10, 2006 09:26 AM (nCSsq)
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Wow, you really aren't the brightest byte in blogdom, are you?
You realize that the caption doesn't, in any way, imply that the bodies were FOUND in blankets?
Go back to the drawing board, swiftie. I'm not sure why anyone would aspire to hit the heights of Little Green Footballs, but even with those low standards, you fall short in every way imaginable. Nice job.
Posted by: beedlebaum at August 10, 2006 04:16 PM (vENsJ)
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Um...question.
If they're trying to remove the bodies trapped under the rubble, well...
How do you wrap a body that's trapped *under* rubble? Wouldn't you have to un-trap the body in order to *wrap* it? I mean, *covering* it when found, maybe, sure, but *wrapping* it? If it's partway buried or obscured by debris in such a way that it has to be un-trapped? How do you wrap something like that?
Just sayin'.
Posted by: Bill Reach at August 10, 2006 08:04 PM (CyuEc)
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Um...question.
If they're trying to remove the bodies trapped under the rubble, well...
How do you wrap a body that's trapped *under* rubble? Wouldn't you have to un-trap the body in order to *wrap* it? I mean, *covering* it when found, maybe, sure, but *wrapping* it? If it's partway buried or obscured by debris in such a way that it has to be un-trapped? How do you wrap something like that?
Just sayin'.
Posted by: Bill Reach at August 10, 2006 08:06 PM (CyuEc)
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Couldn't "blanket-wrapped bodies" mean that they wrapped themselves in blankets before they were killed? We can't tell from the photo that they're wrapped completely (i.e., face and everything, as a corpse would be by another). Just that they're wrapped (and clearly appear to have been found that way).
Posted by: Jim at August 13, 2006 01:06 AM (ZUxAa)
19
The raid on the Muslim southern suburb next to a Christian neighborhood
Am I the only one that finds this language incredibly awkward? What difference does it make if the suburb was next to a Christian neighborhood? The caption writer didn't just add this to make it look like the Israelis were targeting Christians too, knowing that most folks just glance at a caption, did he/she?
Posted by: Bozoer Rebbe at August 13, 2006 01:46 AM (3+Uhm)
20
Lets see the few facts we can understand trough this photo...
1) The bodies are fully wrapped (even from below), before being "rescued".
2) There are very few pictures of the moment.
What makes me get to some conclusion (obviously "my" conclusions, you can make yours if you want).
1) "Somebody" is manipulating the media in the area.
2) "Something" slipped from "Somebody"'s censorship.
Posted by: malki at August 13, 2006 05:13 AM (sqXic)
21
Apparently, no one told you about Operation Zionist Scapegoat yet, CY. Sorry about that. Aren't you on Green Helmet's mailing list?
Posted by: Andy at August 13, 2006 04:35 PM (1JunT)
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Left Wing Fascists
Today is the day when Connecticut Democratic primary voters will decide on whether or not Joe Lieberman or Ned Lamont will be their Senate candidate, and to a certain extent, determine the near-term future of the Democratic Party. I'm pulling for Ned Lamont.
Why?
Ned Lamont, a proven liar (yes, anyone who pals around with Jane Hamsher of Firedoglake, let's her film his campaign commercials starring lfty netroots superstar Kos, and
then states, "I don't know anything about the blogs." is a liar, pure and simple) is precisely the kind of extremist that exposes the far left for the opportunistic, back-stabbing lynch mob that they so transparently are. An example of their viciousness comes from none other than Lanny Davis, former special counsel to President Clinton, in the
WSJ OpinionJournal (via
Instapundit):
A friend of mine just returned from Connecticut, where he had spoken on several occasions on behalf of Joe Lieberman. He happens to be a liberal antiwar Democrat, just as I am. He is also a lawyer. He told me that within a day of a Lamont event--where he asked the candidate some critical questions--some of his clients were blitzed with emails attacking him and threatening boycotts of their products if they did not drop him as their attorney. He has actually decided not to return to Connecticut for the primary today; he is fearful for his physical safety.
This is the face of the rabid netroots that I'd like to see exposed to America's apolitical and moderate voters, those swing voters that decide elections. Take the mask off the beast, and show America the rotten, seething, vicious core that the totalitarian Left represents. Show America a radical left wing that shares the political goals of Hamas and Hezbollah in a defeated American military, a left wing that seeks to lynch American soldiers without the benefit of a trial, that seeks to make America subservient, docile, and weak.
This is face of "liberalism" that I want the world to see, it all of its repulsive glory.
So please, Connecticut, vote for Ned Lamont.
It's just what Dr. Rove ordered.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
08:42 AM
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I, too, hope Lamont wins for the very same reasons you lay out. I want the Dems to finally come out of the closet and expose their leftist views, instead of keeping them out of the view of the voters. I want Karl Rove giggling like a school girl because the Dems are tacking so far left right before an election where National Security is the prime consideration of the public.
Posted by: Stormy70 at August 08, 2006 09:05 AM (SXQle)
2
Left out a comma up there, but I can hardly be blamed since the Dems are so horrible. Oops, did I just use the leftist tactic of blaming everything bad on Bush and Republicans?

Posted by: Stormy70 at August 08, 2006 09:07 AM (SXQle)
3
LOL Stormy.
I'm not sure what will happen though. Joe was closing the "poll" gap pretty quickly for the last few days. I think more of the moderates are waking up. We'll see. I still think Joe will win the general election.
Posted by: Specter at August 08, 2006 09:23 AM (ybfXM)
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I hope Lamont wins so Lieberman can run Independant. Moderate Dems, swing voters, and Republicans will vote for him then.
Posted by: Retired Navy at August 08, 2006 09:25 AM (elhVA)
5
I wonder how much Joe's "outing" will effect his loyalty to the party when he is elected in the general election. I suspect he is a little PO'd at the likes of Dean, Pelosi, etc.
Posted by: Specter at August 08, 2006 10:09 AM (ybfXM)
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Man o man it was close. Lamont predicted a landslide and won by less than 4%. He is toast in November.
BTW - one of the leftist nuts hacked into Lieberman's site yesterday and took it down. But - I know - they all play so fair and ethically. Yea - right
Posted by: Specter at August 09, 2006 10:45 AM (ybfXM)
7
Scared to death, aren't you?
Oh, and Specter, Lieberman's site went down because he was only spending a whopping $15.99 a month for his hosting. Deal.
Posted by: blogenfreude at August 09, 2006 11:21 AM (kKMmn)
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blogenfreude,
New here eh? Welcome. Not scared at all - I've said all along Joe will win in the November election. Doesn't that worry you? It should. He's no friend of Demoncrats anymore. But there are lots and lots of Republicans in CT.
Site was still hacked and official investigation ongoing.
Posted by: Specter at August 09, 2006 03:23 PM (ybfXM)
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August 07, 2006
Shaking the Dead
Not a PhotoShop, but quite obviously staged for Reuters cameraman Ali Hashisho's benefit, adding drama to the already dramatic picture of a hand protruding from the rubble. Pay special attention to the section of concrete-reinforcing iron rebar just over the victim's hand.
Another photo from the scene, this time from Mohammed Zaatari of the Associated Press. Notice the iron rebar has been bent out of the way, moved up and to the viewer's left, but that the rescuer's grasp on the victims' hand has been reestablished.
Another photo from Mohammed Zaatari. Perhaps it is merely an illusion due to how this photo was cropped, but it appears as if the rescuer may have moved slightly forward so that his hand is more parallel with the bottom of the photo, and that the rebar appears to have been bent downward to facilitate this pose.
Why would a rescuer move a piece of rebar two or possibly three times, reestablishing contact with the hand of a corpse each time, if not to create a more dramatic photo op for the Reuters and Associated cameramen assembled?
Update: A brilliant catch.
The Passion of the Toys.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
02:34 PM
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1
Linked from Old War Dogs.
Posted by: Bill Faith at August 07, 2006 03:50 PM (n7SaI)
2
FWIW, that ain't like any rebar we use here in the US. The stuff we got here is hardened steel and don't bend so easy. In fact, you'd burn through a few Sawzall blades trying to cut a piece of the stuff. That looks more like a copper water pipe.
Posted by: Purple Avenger at August 07, 2006 04:23 PM (c/xwT)
3
Yankee, your understanding of the photos above shows little understanding of how war zone and disaster photos are taken.
And, you object to a piece of rebar being moved?
Think about his for a second. Having photogprahed numerous disaster scenes myself (including Ground Zero) I can tell you without fail that you are barking up the wrong tree.
Why? Because to get to the victim in the picture, odds are that many peices of cement and rebar and other items were moved.
Is the photo posed? Yes. But, it is a very common pose amongst disaster photographers to convey scale (a childs hand for example to an adult hand) and color differentiation.
You obvioiusly don't understand the real world function of the picture. The first thing that every rescue worker (and some photographers if they are the first to find a victim) do once a body is found, is to grasp the hand to see if it is warm or cold. You know, alive or dead. As fate would have it, usually, it's the hands or the feet that stick out first. And, sometimes you find someone alive and that person is pulled out.
As a documentary photographer, this shot seems fairly common. It's also a cultural image. Touching a dead person is an act of serioius spiritual compassion in many other cultures. It is saying "you have been found, you are being taken care of..."
But, focusing upon the movement of the rebar, as you have, as some indication of overt posing, is just petty. As I said, its probable that many pounds of rubble was moved to get to the hand in the first place.
Do you object to that too?
Posted by: Camera A at August 07, 2006 07:02 PM (Vp1bn)
4
And, all of this is an inteesting discussion, but it soretly forgets one omportant fact:
People are still dying. Israeli's and Lebanonese.
I think Yankee, you object more to the existence of pictures of the dead than to the content and the fact that propaganda points are being scored with the dead.
Reality check. When there are dead bodies in a war, there is nothing you can do to make that pain go down easier. And, there is plenty that others can do to ensure that the dead are not forgotten in the fog of war.
Posted by: Camera A at August 07, 2006 07:09 PM (Vp1bn)
5
Camera A is giving us all a lesson on staging pictures for human consumption. Like a move production with numerous “takes” of the same scene, to get just the right movement, the right dialog, the right nuance, the right shadows and lights, disaster photos must show drama or pathos to get sold. And what Camera A is telling us is that he knows how to get his pictures sold.
As a documentary photographer, this shot seems fairly common. It's also a cultural image. Touching a dead person is an act of serioius [sic] spiritual compassion in many other cultures. It is saying "you have been found, you are being taken care of..."
Viola! That is the message that Camera A is selling. A shot of pathos; a shot of the horrors of war. Because otherwise we would not know that war involved killing and that war is horrible. Good God! (back of the hand to the forehead) I would not have know that except for Camera A’s explanation. What a brilliants, original insight!
By the way Camera A, how many hands have to touch a lifeless corpse before we know the persons’ dead? One, two, three or as many as you can find?
Posted by: Moenyrunner at August 07, 2006 09:15 PM (qUOeH)
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I have a better question.
Why is the child's head wrapped in cloth? Cloth that was apparently wrapped around the head before the body was sullied by the rubble on top of it? Funny things happen to loose textiles in explosions, but based upon other evidences of late, one has to wonder.
I mean, if the left can believe in 9-11 conspiracies, I can believe in a liberal, left- wing biased media that is so willing to concoct an anti-American story that it is capable of anything.
In view of Al Taqyyia, the work of Muslim stringers in the Middle East cannot be trusted.
Posted by: Warren Bonestel at August 07, 2006 10:45 PM (FshOV)
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the whole point is that these images are being manipulated .. and that we must be suspicious of everything we see .. after all these images are coming from a totalitarian society (southern lebanon is under complete Hezbo control.)
Posted by: johnny nubian at August 07, 2006 10:55 PM (eZsDK)
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What is very very disturbing to me, besides the vilence and death on both sides, is the sense that some people think it is 'OK', to stage, fake, manipulate photos from lebanon because they are just showing what is "really" happening??
Posted by: just one voice at August 08, 2006 06:28 AM (X2tAw)
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Is it possible that someone (the guy with the black watch on his left wrist) is holding the iron rebar in his right hand, using it as a tool (crowbar)?
Posted by: PEPPI at August 08, 2006 07:41 AM (W7W7X)
10
Check out the apparently faked pictures at Gateway Pundit - these ones ran in the NYT. LOL.
Posted by: Specter at August 08, 2006 09:18 AM (ybfXM)
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It amazes me that the same hapless Arabs who can't win a war or make the desert bloom have now become the masters, the originators, of media manipulation. But it must be true, because Wolf Blitzer, a former AIPAC exec and DC correspondent for the Jerusalem Post says so. He after all would know.
The Arabs are shaping world opinion with this trickery too, as any number of polls will show ( We know it can't be the Israeli bombing, or course, because we now know that is all photoshop).
The fact that the MSM has been overrun by Jihadists and Hezzbollah sympathizers is never so transparent as when we tune in every year to see those Årab-Americans handing each other awards on Oscar night.
Posted by: skip at August 08, 2006 09:19 AM (JxU2K)
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Question.... Why is the childs head covered?
Answer... Its probably the same poor child that was used in the other staged photos from Quana. You see, they read the blogs also, sooooo they need to adapt to a new tactic. God forbid its the same little girl that was loaded and unloaded in the ambulance.
Posted by: Faithful Patriot at August 08, 2006 11:49 AM (elhVA)
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You guys have just totally completely lost it, haven't you?
Posted by: Pere Ubu at August 08, 2006 12:39 PM (i2Ofv)
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What bother me in this photo, more then the fact of trying to give a handshake to a corpse, is a something that looks like a zombie head in the lower part of the photo. It is best seen on the lowest shot. Taking in to the account that bodies, in this part of the world, usually buried wrapped in a cloth, it looks to me very much like someone digging out a mass grave. Does anyone else have the same filling?
Posted by: huyakin at August 08, 2006 01:41 PM (COdwP)
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Photo's have been staged since the Camera was around. A lot of the photo's you see of the U.S. Civil War were staged and I read accounts of photographers moving the bodies around so they can drape them out of Devil's Den just to get a more graphic picture.
That doesn't make it right, but it's been done for a long time.
The problem I have is with the Overall picture being portrayed. Isreal has every right to defend itself against a TERRORIST orginazition. The Media plays like it's Hezbolla that is the downtrodden. The MENTAL picture is worse then any others, staged photo's add to the false picture created.
Posted by: Retired Navy at August 08, 2006 01:56 PM (elhVA)
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I agree with CameraA, It is not unseemly to prep a photograph for publication provided you do not chnage the factual evidence of that photo. Rueters stringer Hajj went way beyond preparing a photo for publication went he manupulating the image for dramatic effect. It is unfortunate but the ethics of the photographer must be qualified just like the qualifications of writers and of course bloggers.
Posted by: ron at August 08, 2006 03:59 PM (fBcmZ)
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All photos before about 1930 were 'staged' They HAD to be just to GET them on film. It took LONG exposure time, back then.
But the thoughts that this is the SAME child, the hand is the right size, are very chilling... and creepy. BUT, It wouldn't surprise me at all.
Posted by: sometruth at August 08, 2006 05:17 PM (0vHmq)
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It is not unseemly to prep a photograph for publication
I think this statement says more about your headspace than anything else.
Posted by: Purple Avenger at August 08, 2006 06:00 PM (c/xwT)
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skip wrote:
It amazes me that the same hapless Arabs who can't win a war or make the desert bloom have now become the masters, the originators, of media manipulation.
You're absolutely right, after all, making the desert bloom, or winning a war, is just as difficult as manipulating the media, or running Photoshop.
Perhaps they didn't manage to win a war, or make the desert bloom because they are freaking corrupt; then you wonder why the Gaza strip is still a hell hole. After paying for the fancy houses, the Mercedez & BMWs, and vacations, you don't end up with much for the population, do you?
Lay off the weed, and then perhaps you'll be able to remember these videos. I guess the neocons were responsible for al-Durah too.
Posted by: dna at August 09, 2006 08:27 PM (xjpGM)
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Houla Oops
Read about the "horrific massacre" at Houla, Lebanon while you still can:
Lebanon's prime minister said Monday an Israeli airstrike on the southern village of Houla left 40 people dead.
"An hour ago, there was a horrific massacre in the village of Houla in which more than 40 martyrs were victims of deliberate bombing," Fouad Siniora told Arab foreign ministers in Beirut.
A Lebanese law enforcement source told CNN an estimated 60 people were trapped in the rubble of homes in the Houla area.
Six homes were destroyed, and fires engulfed the area, the source said.
The Israel Defense Forces said it is checking the reports on Houla, noting that it has warned residents for the past two weeks to leave.
Siniora choked back tears, wiping his eyes as he spoke, The Associated Press reported. The ministers applauded.
The deaths Prime Minster Siniora claims as the result of an Israeli air strike
haven't materialized to any great extent in the rest of the world's press, an odd circumstance for such a large loss of civilian life. As of now, the only other online mention I can find of the story is from the AP's
Sam Ghattis, and no photos or first-hand reporting seems yet available from the scene. As of now, we have only Siniora's word that these deaths took place.
Looking around the various news sites, it seems that few news organizations are willing to give Siniora's word the benefit of the doubt, indicating perhaps that news organizations snake-bitten by the still unresolved questions about Qana and the
quite thoroughly resolved frauds of Reuters photographer Adnan Hajj, are not willing to give the terrorist-friendly Prime Minister the instant credibility they might have eight days ago.
The trust of the people that the media needs to survive has been severely damaged in their often one-sided and occasionally staged and faked coverage of the war in Lebanon and Israel. The western media has been finally forced into looking at the reliability of their foreign reporters, photographers, and even the public pronouncements of government officials, and they do not seem to like what they see. A propaganda war is only effective if people are willing to swallow the information they are given, and at this point, it seems even the media is gagging on the
taqiyya that seems to flow so freely in Lebanon's fog of war.
It is of course possible that once reporters reach the scene in Houla that the stories will once again begin to flow lamenting the loss of innocent Lebanese because of indiscriminate Israeli bombing, but that moment has not yet come, and even the tearful display from Lebanon's Prime Minister seems not enough to sway a skeptical press.
Hezbollah and their allies still retain the support of Iran and Syria, but seem to be losing, temporarily at least, the support of their nominally reliable propaganda allies in the western media, and that might be the most important division of this war so far.
Update: Siniora has
retracted his claim.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
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CY - Damn fine title. It's NY Post/NY Daily News worthy alright. Catchy, pithy and to the point.
Posted by: lawhawk at August 07, 2006 01:09 PM (T1l1O)
2
Linked from Old War Dogs.
Posted by: Bill Faith at August 07, 2006 01:59 PM (n7SaI)
3
wicked title and great article too!
reg
g
Posted by: g at August 07, 2006 02:05 PM (+EUV1)
4
And, in your last link, another cameo by "Shady" Shadhi Jradi; the relief worker/mortician/ambulance driver/set decorator/death pimp of Tyre.
Man; talk about vaulting onto the world's stage!
Posted by: AlcanSombrero at August 07, 2006 02:20 PM (0xCL0)
5
Who broke this story for Reuters? That's right.. Their favorite Hezbollah Propagandist... Lin Noueihed. Reuters should pull her. Isn't she the one that hijacked the UN?Lebanon ceasefire response?
What a joke this is all becoming.
Posted by: Merkin Muffley at August 07, 2006 03:06 PM (Kr2nu)
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Terror of the Tumbleweeds
Cindy Sheehan has once again resumed her lonely vigil in Crawford, Texas, and I do mean lonely.
Even with a
flattering AFP photo angle that seeks to fill the frame as much as possible, only a handful of protestors can be viewed in frame, with just over a dozen supporters noticable.
Support for the
dictator-loving,
America-loathing anti-war mom seems to have dropped a bit since her September 21, 2005 march that drew
just 29 supporters.
"For What Noble Cause" indeed.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
09:50 AM
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Cindy is nothing more then a publicity whore. She reminds me of Madonna on her mirrored crucifix. Both are 'good' little catholic girls looking for followers in their obsession to be noticed.
Posted by: tekrat at August 07, 2006 11:20 AM (wnFR4)
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Someone needs to put a web cam out there so we can watch Cindy Sheehan 24 hours a day instead of staged press shots - would be about as exciting as this! ;-)
Posted by: Jon at August 07, 2006 11:32 AM (u06kU)
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Can someone tell me were you can get a job like these people have? Or at least how to obtain revenue as they do.
Posted by: David Caskey at August 07, 2006 11:53 AM (6wTpy)
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David,
You need to take up a cause, the further left the better. You need to harp on the President of the United States during a slow news month so you can become famous, then start a blog with a donations button on it. You need to take that cause (no matter how rediculous) on a crusade and show up at places you weren't invited and make a general nuisance of yourself. All of this while shedding crocodile tears and telling those who support you that they are the best and please hit the donation button again.
Isn't her 15 minutes up yet?
Posted by: Retired Navy at August 07, 2006 12:30 PM (elhVA)
5
I just love Saint Cindy posts so I can do this:
Hey Cindy, how's that fast for peace deal working out?
http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c2/Davis1950/HillaryClintonin10Years.jpg
Posted by: beefeater at August 07, 2006 02:55 PM (NQbsj)
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I'm on a 'no tofu' fast right now until Hezbollah lays down their arms and leaves Lebanon. Will anyone join me?
Heck, I think I'm going to go on a 'no-tofu' fast for the rest of my life in fact.
Posted by: Kevin at August 07, 2006 03:38 PM (++0ve)
7
You think I could put Mother Sheehan in BlacFace and sell it to the NYT?
Posted by: Specter at August 08, 2006 09:21 AM (ybfXM)
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Patriot Act Used to Charge CIA Contractor
Via WRAL-TV:
In the weeks after the Abu Ghraib prison scandal stunned Iraq, a story emerged from Afghanistan about a CIA contractor named David Passaro, a former Special Forces medic accused of beating an Afghan detainee so severely that he later died.
More than three years later, after several soldiers working at Abu Ghraib have been sentenced to prison, Passaro will finally stand trial when jury selection begins Monday -- in a civilian court in his home state of North Carolina. He is the first, and so far only, civilian to be charged with mistreating a detainee during the U.S. wars in Iraq and Afghanistan.
To bring charges against Passaro, who as a civilian isn't subject to military justice, prosecutors turned to the USA Patriot Act, arguing the law passed after the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks allows the government to charge U.S. nationals with crimes committed on land or facilities designated for use by the U.S. government.
When U.S. District Court Judge Terrence Boyle agreed last year, prosecutors received a license to enforce the nation's criminal laws in "any foxhole a soldier builds," said Duke University law professor Scott Silliman.
"Until 2005, Passaro ... was unreachable in federal courts," said Silliman, who runs Duke's Center on Law, Ethics and National Security. "What we're seeing is Congress moving to ensure there is criminal accountability for civilians accompanying the forces."
Silliman said the law represents a dramatic expansion of the reach of federal prosecutors, whose jurisdiction most experts believed was limited to places like embassies and consulates, and not locations like the remote U.S. base in Afghanistan where detainee Abdul Wali turned himself in to U.S. forces.
"What the Patriot Act said was that part of Afghanistan is now part of our ... jurisdiction," Silliman said. "The charge of assault is as if it had occurred in Raleigh. All you have to show it's an assault."
Waiting for the left side of the blogosphere to condemn this expansion of federal power against a U.S. citizen? Don't hold your breath.
While the Glenn/Ellison/Wilson/Ellers side of the blogosphere (and that's just in one house in Brazil) is quick to condemn the Patriot Act for just about any other application of it's power, I strongly suspect that when it comes to this case, Lefties will fall silent. An ACLU challenge would be most unexpected.
Why?
The answer should be obvious. Liberals seem only concerned about the "Good Americans," i.e.
them, that might have their rights infringed upon by what they see as an abusive Patriot Act. Men such as Passaro, as emissaries of Bush Administration foreign policy, aren't seen to have those same rights. They are, in effect, "Bad Americans."
I happen to be thankful that the Patriot Act gives the government a legal option to seek redress for crimes committed by U.S. civilians, and hope that Passaro gets a fair trial in the courts to resolve his guilt or innocence.
No man should be above the law, regardless of politics. In this instance, the Patriot Act provides that law.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
08:26 AM
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I agree, he should be held to account for the charges. If guilty, put him in jail.
Posted by: Retired Navy at August 07, 2006 08:43 AM (JSetw)
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I Question the Timing
From Amnesty International:
The results of the IDF investigation state that the IDF "operated according to information that the building was not inhabited by civilians". Yet survivors of the attack interviewed by Amnesty International researchers in Qana shortly after the bombing, stated that they had been in the building for some two weeks and that their presence must have been known to Israeli forces whose surveillance drones frequently flew over the village.
So according to Amenesty International, the extended family hit in the Qana air strike did not move into the building until
after the war started. What father
purposefully moves their family into a combatant neighborhood in an active war zone? Certainly not someone who wants to keep them alive.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
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This guy is undoubtedly a moderate muslim.
Muslims are shitty neighbors. Everywhere there are Muslims, there is religion justified murder. From honor killings in the UK and Europe to pregnant suburbanites in Seattle...MURDER. Speaking of honor killings, if a father has no compunction about slitting his own daughter's throat or offering her up for stoning, what would he feel comfortable doing to my daughter?
I am sick of the 'moderate muslim' myth. We need to get used to the idea...just as Isreal has...that this IS a war of civilizations.
Here is an idea for all to contemplate since I keep reading dumb stuff like "I'm sure that the Isrealis did something and I have exactly zero proof of it but I just know that jews are richer and more prosperous than me that justifies Hezbollah bombing Isreal for the last six years after getting exactly what they said they wanted which was really not what they wanted since, you know, there are still Jews around."
The muslim apologists like to talk about how Isreal and the US get what they deserve as revenge for some past injustice. That is 'eye for and eye' speech. So lets talk 'eye for an eye'...Isreal has much more effective weaponry, right? I think Isreal should just start trading targets with Hez. If Hez hits an Isreali hotel with a rocket, Isreal hits a Lebanese one with a rocket. Eye for an eye. How could anyone gripe about that? Oh thats right, the media does everyday. The only key difference of course is that Isreal tries to keep munitions off of civilian targets. And if you disagree, think about why the slaughter of civilians isn't as bad as it could be.
I personally am sick of all the political correctness surrounding Muslims and the much vaunted "moderate" ones that no one ever seems to see. "You can't hold them all accountible for such and such attack since its only a few that are really doing it...nevermind the celebrations that the moderate's hold after a REALLY GOOD ONE!" Maybe we don't see the moderate ones because we haven't killed enough of the crazy ones yet.
And I am not a semite or an anti-semite. What I am is 100% anti-islam and thats just my tendancy for self-preservation kicking in.
Everyone keeps talking about showing restraint to keep from radicalizing the young muslims. Be careful, you fools. Or you will radicalize US! Actually, its too late for me. And since I am a painfully average guy...I see more data points popping up around me everyday.
Posted by: y7 at August 07, 2006 10:10 AM (yYph9)
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Is Lebanon Faked?
This lady is a fraud, as is this jet's "bombs", this burning koran, this ambulance and llama—yes, I said llama—and this bombed city. In each and every one of these events, the professional media's photographers either failed to capture true events, or were complicit in faking events. In the so-called "media war," the media has clearly chosen sides.
Against that backdrop, the Hezbollah staging and media complicity in the Qana air strike of last weekend seems well within the realm of possibility.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
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I linked from
Old War Dogs >> Reutergate 4.
Posted by: Bill Faith at August 07, 2006 04:05 AM (n7SaI)
2
The more people look...the more p-shopping they find. Incredible. Where's TBogg on this?
Posted by: Specter at August 07, 2006 10:57 AM (ybfXM)
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August 04, 2006
Shadi Business?
When I saw Dan Reihl's post noting that refrigerated trucks came from Tyre before the media arrived after daybreak, I thought that the trucks were suspicious.
Now
IsrealInsider (h/t
A.J. Strata) is reporting that the Lebanese rescue worker known by many simply as "Green Helmet" that appeared in so many of photos brandishing a dead toddler by the neck, is a man named Abu Shadi.
In the days leading up to the Israeli attack on Qana, Abu Shadi, a mortician for the hospital in Tyre, had been driving refrigerated trucks
packed with dead bodies.
Could it be another man named Abu Shadi? Perhaps. Another Shadi with a certified-by-the-media truckload of corpses? Not very likely.
The odd and unanswerable continue to add up in Qana.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
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How dare you question the honor and integrity of Hezbollah!
To even suggest that a pro-genocide terrorist organization with a history of using civilians as human shields would falsify forensic evidence is beyond the pale.
Posted by: John at August 04, 2006 08:26 AM (3A7bb)
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Yeah, like I'm real surprised by this. And they get insulted when you call them liars and cheats.
Go figure.
And the Lebanese are surprised and shocked that all of this is happening? I'm sorry, but this is what happens when you shelter terrorists and allow them to operate in your midst. It's bad that this has to happen, but certainly should not come as a surprise to anyone.
I sincerely hope Israel is able to wipe this disgusting group of terrorists off the face of the earth. Life in this world will be a LOT safer without them around.
Posted by: WB at August 04, 2006 01:36 PM (5tFaZ)
3
Oh yeah, that one guy who exaggerated or even faked some of the death and destruction over there is really gonna make the whole crisis between Israel & Lebanon get so much worse. But hey, as long as the Israelis can only blow up enough people in Lebanon, the odds are they'll get some, or a lot, of the bad guys, so it's definitely worth it, even if it means killing lots of innocent people at the same time... oh, I forgot, you think that EVERYONE in Lebanon is guilty of either being a Hezbo, or conspiring to help them, and therefore, they ALL deserve to die.
It's simply amazing how you people think the answer to everything is just "kill 'em all, let God sort 'em out later." One guy on here even said "all that matters is that we kill more of them than they kill of us." Yeah, that military strategy worked really well in the trench warfare of World War I, so why not repeat it here too?
Posted by: aja10024 at August 04, 2006 04:31 PM (wZLWV)
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No, it just means that if they are going to hide behind the civilians like cowards, and the civilians don't get out of the way, they are compliant and deserve what they get.
Posted by: MrJacobsen at August 04, 2006 06:13 PM (pPRHO)
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Is that why news commentator, author and uber-conservative Pat Buchanan (who is no opponent of using force ansd/or war toi solve problems) says that Israelis are fighting this war the wrong way and that it has ruined the good name of Irael AND the US throughout the Middle East and the rest of the world?
Posted by: aja10024 at August 04, 2006 08:21 PM (wZLWV)
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aja - http://daledamos.blogspot.com/2006/08/123-israeli-children-killed-by.html
Posted by: SouthernRoots at August 04, 2006 09:16 PM (jHBWL)
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To Arabs, lies and deception are an integral part of everyday life, not merely of war. Why would anyone expect anything different? Read T.E. Lawrence and be amazed at how nothing has changed in 100 years (or longer).
Posted by: Bullfrog619 at August 04, 2006 10:14 PM (SSCSG)
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Aja is another of those morons who ignore the use of human shields by these muslim terrorists in Lebanon. "How awful. innocents were killed!" while studiously ignoring that the fanatic party of god manipulated just those civilian deaths.
Also, by allowing an armed extension of Syria&Iran to conduct war against Israel from its soil means that Lebanon was complicit in an act of war against Israel. So until Lebanon surrenders (or ejects the Iranian terrorists), then war will continue. And, in war between nations, there are few/no innocents.
But that assumes that Aja is something more than a terrorist apologist. More likely, Aja is just another hate Israel lefty who could care less about the actual ethics of what is going on in the ME and will spout any nastiness to denigrate Israel's legitimate right to exist and defend itself.
Posted by: iconoclast at August 04, 2006 11:51 PM (Jpc2l)
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Southernroots: thanks for the web site link. I know all too well about the killings and death that you cite in that link. But the million dollar question is: why do you think that I don't find it 100% wrong and totally repulsive that the Hezbo's or PLO or anyone else kills innocent civilians, and that killing children is especially heinous, by anyone?
I don't deny that those atrocities happened, and I never said anything here that said those acts were justified in any way. All I said was that I disagreed with Israel using these tactics at this time, or ever. You seem to need to boil down a complex major military conflict into a simplistic, easy-to-define situation involving a "good side" and a bad side" wherein if you consider yourself to be on the "good side" it justifies committing the same atrocities as the "bad" side does.
I have typically always defended Israel's rights as a sovereign nation, especially in the larger political context of self-preservation and their right to defend themselves, and appreciate their alliance and good relations with the US. But where is the logic or justification for them being permitted to do anything to anybody, anywhere... or do you believe that two wrongs really DO make a right -- just as long as you are the one committing the second wrong...?
Posted by: aja10024 at August 05, 2006 03:34 AM (wZLWV)
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iconoclast: it's interesting, and deliciously ironic, that you bring up T.E. Lawrence, since he made his mark on the world partly, or mainly, by working closely with an Arab coalition of fighting forces, helping them implement a military strategy of attrition that was unheard of at the time, but which perfectly suited the particular needs of indigenous peoples who rebel against a much larger established force and/or an occupying colonial power.
His strategy was revolutionary (no pun intended, it had never been employed in that way, or with such success, in warfare ever before), because instead of the modern, mechanized trench warfare that was so prevalent (and destructive) in WWI, his innovative strategy permitted a smaller, weaker force to sap the resources -- and therefore the will to continue fighting -- of a Great Power that could not otherwise have been defeated in face-to-face battle in the field.
His military and political writings have been known to have stimulated the thinking of revolutionary strategists throughout the century since that time, including Mao Zedong, the campaigns of Vo Nguyen Giap, and the theories of Che Guevara -- and possibly the Hezbo's and PLO....? It is a typical paradox of his colorful career that Lawrence, the hero of British imperialism, should have become an inspirer of the Third World’s revolt against the imperial West, both then and today.
And speaking of lies, the Arabs -- who Lawrence supported, trained and helped unite into a cohesive political and military force -- were certainly not the ONLY ones at that time that may have utilized lies, more lies, and damn lies to mislead critics, fool adversaries, and promote or justify their actions on the world stage during a time of war. The British did their best to play all sides against each other in the Middle East, both during and after WWI, in their attempts to maintain control of that region. Didja ever wonder why most of the countries there today still have bad feelings about the West, and any attempts at what look like colonial invasion, occupation and domination...?
Posted by: aja10024 at August 05, 2006 04:34 AM (wZLWV)
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Bullfrog619 -- I totally apologize for mixing up your historically relevant comment about T. E. Lawrence with the hysterically irrelevant comment by iconoclast. I would have no logical or practical reason to reply to that posting, with its sweeping generalizations (i.e. "just another hate Israel lefty"), personal attacks ("who could care less about the actual ethics of what is going on") and the kind of pointless school-yard name-calling ("another of those morons") that is often used by people who have very few facts to offer, but have lots of angry opinions to vent.
Posted by: aja10024 at August 05, 2006 04:51 AM (wZLWV)
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"who is no opponent of using force ansd/or war to solve problems"
You do know that Buchanan wrote a book arguing we shouldn't have entered World War *Two*, right?
Posted by: Knemon at August 05, 2006 09:38 AM (myKow)
13
Of the dead he's seen, Mr. Shadi says, "maybe 3 per cent" were men. The rest were women and children. "They're not targeting fighters."
So he's saying that indiscriminate missile attacks on civilians hit 97% women and children.
And the media swallows it uncritically.
Posted by: lyle at August 05, 2006 09:42 AM (lN6Mt)
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aja,
What I find interesting about your comments is that you seem to think that Israel is specifically targeting civilians. Not the case. They don't need prceision guided weapons to do that - just plain dumb iron bombs and carpet bombing. Heck, with that they'd kill 100 X the number of civilians that have already been killed. You know - stupid munitions - kind of like the hundreds - even thousands - of rockets and mortars the Hezzies have launched indiscriminately at Israel. It's a sense of perspective.....
Posted by: Specter at August 05, 2006 10:02 AM (ybfXM)
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Imperial West???
Showing your true colors for a brief moment, aja.
The conflict in the ME is no longer guerrilla warfare. It is now a battle between states. Hezbollah is an Iranian/Syrian militia that operates out of Lebanon with the permission (and support) of the Lebanese government. The fiction that it is a stateless organization is just another fraud. That this state-supported militia chooses to use civilians as human shields and their inevitable (though overstated and often fraudulent) deaths as propaganda.
But since the alternative is genocide, world "opinion" is irrelevant to the Israelis. Israelis leaders would be criminally negligent if deaths of human shields and collateral civilian death weighed at all against the years of agression, terror, murder, and acts of war instigated by these three states (Lebanon, Syria, and Iran). Which is exactly how we expect our leaders to behave as well.
So take your anger against the imperial west tripe and stuff it. That meme is so completely discredited that even mouthing it reveals a reactionary and thoughtless worldview.
Posted by: iconoclast at August 05, 2006 12:47 PM (Jpc2l)
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where is nassaralla ?
in every braodcasted tape of his I see curtains.
it is said in israel that he is in syria.
I tend to believe it, why is the press no asking this ?
Posted by: guy moran at August 05, 2006 01:45 PM (Col3X)
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The Jerusalem Post says Qana may have been totally staged.
It is also a story about bloggers.
Bloggers get results
You got a mention
Posted by: M. Simon at August 05, 2006 02:08 PM (vk2SY)
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aja10024 wrote:
Pat Buchanan
Em, yes, so what solution do you and this journalist have to offer?
or do you believe that two wrongs really DO make a right
Ah, yes, resorting to the abstract; amazing how some people can keep on talking and talking about issues without saying anything, and usually wrap up with a "think about the children" remark.
Furtheremore, they never touch the relevant details, such as why are we in this situation to begin with. It all started when Hizballah crossed the border and murdered and kidnapped some soldiers, and then to top it off, they fired some rockets. All this happened even though Israel withdrew to the internation border according to UN decision 1559(?).
So whats Hizballah's excuse? The usual - (1) Palestinian suffering, and (2) Lebanse prisoners. For the first excuse, all I can say is that they should've minded their own business, and the fact that they are Shia, and the Palestinians are Sunni, doesn't really support this claim (especially given what's happening in Iraq between the two groups).
Now for excuse #2 -- it is an excuse, primarily due to how it is presented: that the people held by Israel are in fact Innocent civilians; well, I suggest you read about Samir Kuntar, an individual who for some reason become very popular in Lebanon, and a symbol for the prisonners. If that's their symbol, and represents the rest, then they might as well be kept in jails.
Hizballah appolgists argue that Israel's response is unproportional, execessive, and that all that it should've done was to negotiate an exchange. At this point one must recognize the hypocrasy of these appologists -- Israel, after being attacked, has only the diplomatic option, yet they make no such expectations from Hizballah, and completely ignore the fact the they initiated the hostilities -- as if they could not have approached Israel diplomatically, and make a case for the release of whatever prisonners.
Posted by: dna at August 05, 2006 11:40 PM (xjpGM)
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where is nassaralla ?
I dare say that he is somewhere exotic, enjoying his 72 virgins, without having to becoming a martyr. I'm sure he can afford it, since he most likely has a swiss bank account as bloatted as Araft used to have back in the goold old days.
Posted by: dna at August 05, 2006 11:51 PM (xjpGM)
20
It is interesting to compare civilan causualties caused by NATO in Kosovo and Israel in Lebanon.
Human rights noted both but in the case of NATO it was just a side note; in case of Israel - a major outcry of War Crimes
Posted by: Greg at August 06, 2006 10:44 AM (5sCbj)
21
Here is the link to Kosovo numbers
http://www.hrw.org/press/2000/02/nato207.htm
Posted by: Greg at August 06, 2006 10:45 AM (5sCbj)
22
Reuters news agency admitted on Sunday that it had digitally altered a photograph of an Israeli attack on Lebanon on Saturday, showing more smoke than was actually present.
The photograph, as initially published, showed an aerial view of Beirut after an IAF attack, with two large pillars of smoke rising over the city. The caption read: Smoke billows from burning buildings destroyed during an overnight Israeli air raid on Beirut's suburbs.
The agency has since withdrawn the photograph, issued an apology and released the unaltered picture. Its public relations department said the photographer had been suspended until the investigation was completed.
Reuters was notified of the alteration by American bloggers who noticed repeating patterns within the smoke plumes, indicating that part of the image was duplicated several times.
The scene was photographed by Adnan Hajj, who had also photographed the aftermath of the Israeli attack on Kana last week, in which the Lebanese initially claimed 58 fatalities, but could later only confirm 28.
Posted by: hillel at August 06, 2006 12:10 PM (azgnI)
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ahh....Al-Reuters at it again. No need for Al-Jezeera with Al-Reuters around.
Al-Reuters-uncovering the truth with lies, or something like that.
Posted by: iconoclast at August 06, 2006 05:33 PM (HmslM)
24
And the blogger at LittleGreenFootballs - Johnson is it? - got a death threat from someone who used Reuter's IP. In return, Reuters says a person has been suspended over the incident.
Posted by: Specter at August 06, 2006 10:18 PM (ybfXM)
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"But where is the logic or justification for them being permitted to do anything to anybody, anywhere... or do you believe that two wrongs really DO make a right -- just as long as you are the one committing the second wrong...?" Aja...
Anybody, anywhere...? I can't believe you really said that. Jews are the ones killing people in Bali, East Timor, New York City, Madrid, London, etc etc? Oh, thats right, they are just trying to kill the people on their borders that are trying to kill them and that have stated emphatically that they won't stop until all the Jews are pushed into the sea? That is your definition of anybody, anywhere?
My definition is: Bali, East Timor, New York City, Madrid, London, etc etc. Oh and Seattle! All we have to do to achieve peace is become Muslim ourselves...but wait, should I become a Sunni or shiite? I wonder which is safer? Maybe neither. Maybe, just maybe, no one can be 100% safe around Muslims. Hmm?
Posted by: y7 at August 07, 2006 10:39 AM (yYph9)
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August 02, 2006
Schwinns of War
And the questions surrounding the air strike at Qana keep coming.
This photo was first noted as a possible staged photo by
A.J. Strata on July 31st.
This photo came one day later on August 1st.
Most people viewing this photo, noticing the shattered toy perched precariously on shattered slabs, are even more convinced it was placed there by human hands, most logically the photographer's.
Is staging photos a conspiracy? Not necessarily, thought it is unethical for a news photographer, especially when the photographer is posting on a polarizing subject.
Speaking of ethics, did you click the link to the picture Strata suggested might be staged? Did you happen to notice who the photographer was?
His name is Nicolas Asfouri, one of the same photographers who was acused of staging photos of the body recovery after the Israeli air strike in Qana earlier that very day.
Update: Ace takes this, and
writes it better.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
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"Most people viewing this photo, noticing the shattered toy perched precariously on shattered slabs, are even more convinced it was placed there by human hands, most logically the photographer's."
What did you do, take a survey? How do you know what most people think? And you assume most people are convinced ab initio that it was placed there by human hands (probably the photographer's) and then become even more convinced when they notice the slabs?
I must be in the minority, looks like random rubble to me. Maybe the bike is on top because it blew down from a higher story than the slabs.
No, on second thought, it must be a conspiracy. Enough of these toddler bike photos and the terrorists will surely win. One look at that photo and most people are even more convinced, as you say. Let's take our own perceptions and conspiracy theories and attribute them to most everyone else. It is truly comforting.
Posted by: aplomb at August 02, 2006 03:34 PM (778mn)
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Good catch Yankee! I had not made the connection. This photo (my other classic staged photo from that post) is by Kevin Frayer - husband of a CNN news exec who I believe also claims no staging. Will check further
http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/060731/481/b85891ea617d4765a40b20d951c37238
Cheers, AJStrata
Posted by: AJStrata at August 02, 2006 03:42 PM (67DAA)
3
BTW you have seen the EU referendum's analysis of some video footage haven't you?
http://eureferendum.blogspot.com/2006/08/stretcher-alley.html
Posted by: Francis at August 02, 2006 04:26 PM (aiAZs)
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CY - They are clearly staged photos.
Perhaps the photographer of photo #2 can explain why everything in the vicinity is complete, unrecognizable rubble, and yet the bike remains remarkably intact, albeit a little dusty.
And then perhaps the photographer of photo #1 can explain how the bike is remarkably untouched, in fact not even touched by any debris or dust.
One look at these photos and I can discern that they are not what they allegedly depict. However, we must consider the fact that the IAF is remarkably precise in their targeting. Perhaps they sighted the bikes and aimed slightly to the - left.
Posted by: Enlightened at August 02, 2006 05:08 PM (iB7ZQ)
5
CY - Take a look at the youtube video on Powerline -
It shows Hezbollah terrorists/innocent civilians firing missiles from innocent civilian homes. Of course the conspiracy theorists will avow that these are not "missiles" coming from a "house" fired at "Israel." They are just "fireworks" coming from a "house" fired at "thin air".
So when Israel strikes back, and destroys the "house" and just about EVERYTHING in it, we are to believe that the "bikes" in pictures #1 and #2 above - survived pretty much intact, and the poor "civilians" that just got annihilated for shooting off "fireworks" were - innocent!
Posted by: Enlightened at August 02, 2006 06:04 PM (iB7ZQ)
Posted by: Granddaddy Long Legs at August 02, 2006 06:20 PM (alXDI)
7
AJ, Frayer's wife is ME Bureau Chief for CTV, not CNN.
Posted by: clarice at August 03, 2006 12:16 AM (QKUux)
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Just to verify, take a look at the pictures, this is NOT the same bicycle you are looking at. It has not same shape, colour, wheels. I'm either pro or con of Isreal or Libanon, but please stick to the facts.
Posted by: Karin at August 03, 2006 03:30 AM (4IQnr)
9
Karin,
I think most folks knew that, but thanks for clarifying it for those who weren't paying attention.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at August 03, 2006 06:10 AM (psJM2)
10
It shows Hezbollah terrorists/innocent civilians firing missiles from innocent civilian homes. Of course the conspiracy theorists will avow that these are not "missiles" coming from a "house" fired at "Israel." They are just "fireworks" coming from a "house" fired at "thin air".
It was obviously a "wedding party"!
Posted by: LagunaDave at August 03, 2006 08:21 AM (4CpEr)
11
I work for a newspaper in the photo department and this is not uncommon in the past. They don't stage as much as they used to but I used to work with a photographer who kept a teddy bear in his car to toss into the center of a burned out home or building. True story.
Keep in mind that the photographers need to show the Hezbollah as the oppressed. Otherwise, they will get kicked out and not allowed to follow them around. Prime example? CNN being lead around by a Hez spokesman, shown only the areas they want them to see.
Posted by: Pixelflash at August 03, 2006 02:37 PM (O+1/6)
12
I could fake better pictures in my garage.
Posted by: Tom TB at August 03, 2006 04:10 PM (y6n8O)
13
You missed some of the worst photographs. This one is extremely distressing, and probably not safe for work. I think the man's name in the photo is Bernard.
Posted by: Kevin at August 04, 2006 08:39 AM (++0ve)
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Karin,
Not sure exactly what your point is. However, I was thinking the same thing: that the two trikes ARE different. Not only that, but are those fingerprints on the wheel of the bottom photo? Looks like it was placed there to me.
That being said, I don't think that's the point of this story. The point is that hezbollah is amazingly adept at manipulating and staging almost anything they want to sway world opinion against not only Israel but anything Western.
Posted by: MBV at August 04, 2006 09:58 AM (Odhi4)
15
I left a comment here:
The Jerusalem Post says Qana may have been totally staged.
It is also a story about bloggers.
Bloggers get results
My bit included a link to here so it served as a blogger track back.
Also you got a mention in the JP article.
Did I offend you?
Posted by: M. Simon at August 05, 2006 03:05 PM (vk2SY)
16
Uh Oh. Me bad.
I got cross threaded.
My bit is still in the other thread.
Apologies.
Posted by: M. Simon at August 05, 2006 03:08 PM (vk2SY)
17
http://www.kohm.org/archive/21july2006.php
another bike. Of course, those fragile bunny ears somehow managed to not get hit by falling concrete. Who took the picture, I wonder

wait for it now....
Posted by: just me at August 07, 2006 09:05 PM (RV6nX)
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Cold-Blooded Libel
America's most disgusting Ex-Marine is sued for libel over his allegations that Marines in Haditha "killed innocent civilians in cold blood."
Attorneys for Frank D. Wuterich, 26, argue in court papers that Murtha tarnished the Marine's reputation by telling news organizations in May that the Marine unit cracked after a roadside bomb killed one of its members and that the troops "killed innocent civilians in cold blood." Murtha also said repeatedly that the incident was covered up.
Murtha argued that the questionable deaths of 24 civilians were indicative of the difficulties and overpowering stress that U.S. troops are facing. The congressman, a former Marine, has been a leading advocate for withdrawing U.S. forces from Iraq.
In the court filing, obtained by The Washington Post, the lawyers say that Murtha made the comments after being briefed by Defense Department officials who "deliberately provided him with inaccurate and false information." Neal A. Puckett and Mark S. Zaid, suing for libel and invasion of privacy, also wrote that Murtha made the comments outside of his official scope as a congressman.
[snip]
This case is not about money; it's about clearing Frank Wuterich's name, and part of that is to identify where these leaks are coming from," Zaid said in an interview. "Congressman Murtha has created this atmosphere that has already concluded guilt. He's created this environment that really smells, and he's the only one who has done that."
It is work noting that Murtha's claim of a cover-up has already
conclusively debunked.
h/t AllahPundit at
Hot Air, who has more.
Update:
I question the timing:
Evidence collected on the deaths of 24 Iraqis in Haditha supports accusations that U.S. Marines deliberately shot the civilians, including unarmed women and children, a Pentagon official said Wednesday.
Agents of the Naval Criminal Investigative Service have completed their initial work on the incident last November, but may be asked to probe further as Marine Corps and Navy prosecutors review the evidence and determine whether to recommend criminal charges, according to two Pentagon officials who discussed the matter on condition of anonymity.
The decision on whether to press criminal charges against four Marines ultimately will be made by the commander of the accused Marines' parent unit, the 1st Marine Expeditionary Force at Camp Pendleton, Calif. That currently is Lt. Gen. John Sattler, but he is scheduled to move to a Pentagon assignment soon; his successor will be Lt. Gen. James Mattis.
My initial reaction to this is, "Where's the news?"
We've known since this story broke that the Marines killed these civilians. That fact has never been in doubt at all, so to breathlessly say that the evidence supports what you already know is, well,
grandstanding.
Nothing has changed.
It seems quite suspicious that the AP chose to break this non-story on the same day that it was announced that the three Marines decided to sue Murtha for libel.
Perhaps the goal of the AP isn't as much grandstanding as it is trying to deflect attention from their "Democratic Hawk" of record.
8/3 Update: I speculated above that the sudden and unexpected AP account above might have been to distract attention from the lawsuits against Murtha. This morning,
Time magazine seems to support that line of reasoning,
directly contradicting the AP claims (my bold):
DOD officials tell TIME that Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld recently set up a Pentagon task force, which meets once a week, to track Haditha and prepare for the eventual release of the investigations' results. But a Pentagon source familiar with the criminal investigation says that contrary to the suggestions of some media reports Wednesday, there have been no conclusions that the Marines deliberately killed unarmed civilians. This source also says that the bodies of those killed at Haditha have not been exhumed, which makes proving murder 'very challenging.'
That seems to take the air out of the sails for certain liberal bloggers and their fans, who seem all too eager to see these Marines in front of a firing squad, trial be damned. As I said back in May as this story was
developing:
Someone who truly supports the troops, even if they do not support the war, would want this incident fully investigated to uncover the truth. They would want to know the facts.
They would want to know if the Marines fired out of blind rage at the loss of their friends, and they would be equally interested in finding out if the Marines assaulted that location because someone inside fired upon them, as they claimed. Was it a slaughter of innocents, or were insurgents firing from within civilian homes? Were those that triggered the IED among the dead? We do not yet know, and some are already passing judgment.
We all want the truth of the matter in this incident, and if the Marines did murder Iraqi civilians, they should be tried in a court of law and then sentenced for their crimes if convicted.
Instead, many liberals seem willing to skip the trial in favor of simply lynching those accused, based upon sometimes faulty and always incomplete media reports.
Our Marines, and the Iraqi people, deserve better than that.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
08:48 AM
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1
Nice job, dumbass. Tbogg took you to school this morning: http://tbogg.blogspot.com/2006/08/well.html
Posted by: Sam Shelbyton at August 02, 2006 09:22 AM (62NkU)
2
Linked from
Old War Dogs >> Marine Names Murtha in Defamation Suit (Updated, bumped)
Posted by: Bill Fait at August 02, 2006 09:25 AM (n7SaI)
3
Sam, How dare you question the narrow minded focus and incompetence of CY. Facts are for fools.
Posted by: Zack Darr at August 02, 2006 09:39 AM (50Fca)
4
Oh well....
Aug 2, 9:46 AM (ET)
By ROBERT BURNS
WASHINGTON (AP) - Evidence collected on the deaths of 24 Iraqis in Haditha supports accusations that U.S. Marines deliberately shot the civilians, including unarmed women and children, a Pentgon official said Wednesday.
Agents of the Naval Criminal Investigative Service have completed their initial work on the incident last November, but may be asked to probe further as Marine Corps and Navy prosecutors review the evidence and determine whether to recommend criminal charges, according to two Pentagon officials who discussed the matter on condition of anonymity.
Posted by: Stefan at August 02, 2006 09:46 AM (Wr6tG)
5
Liberal bloggers and their fans are so amusing. As I left in a comment at tbogg:
Uh, Short Bus,
From the time this story broke to the public, there was never any doubt that the Marines had killed these people. The question was whether or not the killing were criminal (i.e. outside the rules of engagement). That still has not been decided by the investigators to date, and no Marines have been charged with a crime.
One again, you raise a non-issue and act like it is a profound statement.
When a lefty blogger gets the basic facts right, that will be news.
His sputtering response was even more amusing.
That his blog-hopping commentors aren't any more intelligent shold be expected, I suppose.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at August 02, 2006 09:58 AM (g5Nba)
6
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060802/ap_on_go_ca_st_pe/haditha_investigation_3
Seems odd that the lawyers sueing Murtha are saying that defense dept officials deliberately provided him with inaccurate and false info, so Murtha is to blame for libel. Wouldn't he had to know it was inaccurate and false for him to be guilty of libel? How would he know that if he was being briefed by people supposedly giving him accurate info? Kinda like the GWB Iraq defense, "I was given faulty intelligence". It will be interesting to see if the courts will touch "statements made outside the scope of a congressman".
Posted by: matt a at August 02, 2006 10:07 AM (E+3yy)
7
Confederate Yankee,
I'm still waiting on you to give an answer to tbogg's "sputtering response". How could shooting unarmed women and children be considered within the ROE?
I'm all ears.
Posted by: Mike at August 02, 2006 10:12 AM (t2/Yc)
8
Wow. That sure was a "sputtering" response. So are you going to explain to us bloghoppers (as opposed, presumably, to your devoted fans, who might be referred to as "circlejerkers") how killing women and kids is now within the rules of engagement?
I'm guessing not, but I'd love you to try. God knows the world isn't already so full of BS that we can't do with a little more.
Posted by: SouthernBoy at August 02, 2006 10:14 AM (ocYhB)
9
Guy, even the Pentagon is taking the line that the Marines shot the women/kids on purpose. At least read the news and see what the military has to say before running with your story. It just makes you look like you lack common sense.
Posted by: Redneck Junkie at August 02, 2006 10:22 AM (SUzUk)
10
When the women and children are shooting, when they are hidden behind obstructions near the ones doing the firing and are caught in 'incendental' cross fire, when they are in their homes while a gun battle is going on in their street and they decide to peek out a window.
There are many scenarios that need to be investigated to see if the "Innocent until PROVEN guilty" Marines are at no fault, partial fault, or full fault for the deaths.
Posted by: Retired Navy at August 02, 2006 10:25 AM (elhVA)
11
Well, I guess that Marine should sue the DoD for providing those facts.
He also may want to sue the JAG officers who bring any criminal charges against the guys who killed those women and children.
Posted by: Geek, Esq. at August 02, 2006 10:31 AM (iBcDZ)
12
Oh my gawd you can't be this obtuse.
It wasn't the AP that chose to break this non-story (and it is in fact a story Sparky) it was the Pentagon.
Who hate Marines and America and want the Islamafacists to win no doubt.
You keep questioning timing and we'll stick to questioning your intelligence and sanity.
Posted by: salvage at August 02, 2006 10:46 AM (xWitf)
13
Retired Navy,
If the Pentagon says the women and children were "unarmed" then how could they have been shooting at the Marines? Also, if the women and children were caught in a crossfire, how is that "deliberate" as the Pentagon says?
As to the bigger question: How is Marines deliberately killing unarmed women and children not cold-blooded murder? If that's not it, then the word has no meaning any longer.
Posted by: Samurai Sam at August 02, 2006 10:54 AM (HrtLF)
14
I was answering Southernboy's question of how.
As to the the facts of Haditha, I stand by innocent until proven guilty. That civilians were killed I have no doubt. That some Marines killed them is probable. The question is HOW it actually happened.
I very much Doubt it was an Execution like Murtha stated (Hence the Libel suit).
They could have been used as shields, crossfire, stray fire etc. The point is, WE don't have the intelligence, that was sent to the JAG office and they are reviewing it to see when and IF charges are to be filed.
To sit at they keyboard and proclaim "GUILTY" doesn't let our justice system play out. Our system isn't perfect, but from what I have seen (I've been around the world, literally) it's the best around.
Now, if any are found guilty, let justice serve and send them to jail. Until then INNOCENT.
Posted by: Retired Navy at August 02, 2006 11:09 AM (nFSnk)
15
How could shooting unarmed women and children be considered within the ROE?
There are more scenarios than I can dream up to be sure, but lets take a look at one that has happened dozens of times that has been well documented.
Troops manning a checkpoint on a road notice that a vehicle is approaching their position at a high rate of speed. Despite warnings (the exact kind may vary), the vehicle continues to close at a high rate of speed. The soldiers, according to their rules of engagement, open fire on the vehicle.
Sometimes, they kill a suicide bomber. Sometimes they kill the enemy. Other times, they kill civilians. In the later instance, troops followed their rules of engagement, but committed no criminal acts.
Let's look at another one.
A military convoy is ambushed. Soldiers in the convoy return fire. A vehicle in the convoy fires into a building where they see muzzle flashes just seconds before.
Civilians are killed. The soldiers were responding well within the rules of engagement, and civilians died. Again, not a crime.
Let's try some more.
Another convoy is ambushed with an IED. Some in the convoy are injured or killed in the initial blast, which is immediately followed by small arms fire from surrounding buildings. The convoy fires back, and engages in foot pursuit of the enemy, firing as they run, clearing buildings. Civilians could have been killed, but weren’t
Yet another convoy is ambushed with an IED. Some in the convoy are injured or killed in the initial blast, which is immediately followed by small arms fire from surrounding buildings. The convoy fires back, and engages in foot pursuit of the enemy, firing as they run, clearing buildings. 24 civilians are killed.
The last two incidents sounds very similar, don't they? The former describes the convoy attack that nearly killed ABC News co-anchor Bob Woodruff and cameraman Doug Vogt. The later describes the Haditha incident as reported by the Marines in Haditha.
The Marines in the Haditha incident may be guilty of crimes, they may not, but to date they have not even been charged. To ignorantly assume that the killing of civilians is automatically outside the rules of engagement and a is a crime shows just how detached some of you are from the reality of war.
Yes, civilian deaths are always a tragedy, but that does not automatically make them a crime.
( moe or less cross-posted to Tbogg, for both of you who care)
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at August 02, 2006 11:12 AM (g5Nba)
16
Murtha doesn't have to "know" his statements were false in order for them to be defamatory. A reckless disregard for their truthfullness/accuracy can suffice.
Posted by: PrivatePigg at August 02, 2006 11:30 AM (gv1ih)
17
What part of "that U.S. Marines deliberately shot the civilians" is giving you the stupids?
If all your scenarios applied here the Pentagon wouldn't be pursing the case would they?
Those Marines deliberately murdered civilians, of that there is little doubt, now we need to know why.
Posted by: salvage at August 02, 2006 11:30 AM (xWitf)
18
salvage, in the scenarios I outlined above, the Marines deliberately shot civlians as well. But there is a huge difference between shooting civlians and premeditated murder (or for that matter, a crime), which is what I'm trying to pound through your wee little mind.
Nice of you to pass judgement prior to them even being charged, though.
Should we just skip the trial and execute them?
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at August 02, 2006 11:36 AM (g5Nba)
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CY,
I notice you forgot the "deliberately" in that last comment. Oversight, I guess.
Posted by: david at August 02, 2006 11:53 AM (jmjB6)
20
Should we just skip the trial and execute them?
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at August 2, 2006 11:36 AM
Sounds like that's what happened in Haditha. Can you not see the convoluted nature of your arguments?
Posted by: alabamaslim at August 02, 2006 12:25 PM (AwzjN)
21
For those of you who have never cleared a room in a building(which is what was going on in this case under orders by the way) You throw in a grenade and then continue in firing to clear the room. These Marines did what they were trained and told to do.
I feel bad that civilians died but if you dont align yourself with the enemy in the first place they wouldnt have had to clear your building.
Posted by: 81 at August 02, 2006 12:26 PM (y67bA)
22
Yes David, they "deliberately" shot them. Are you happy now?
Of course, the question I perhaps should have brought up earlier is that if these Marines are so bloodthirsty murderers as all of my liberal commentors seem to suggest, then why haven't they already be charged?
*crickets*
For all my military readers, just remember:
They support the troops.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at August 02, 2006 12:34 PM (g5Nba)
23
If you can't understand deliberately shooting civilians in self-defence or a combat situation and just shooting them then you can't be helped.
It has been confirmed that they killed unarmed civilians and then tried to cover it up by claiming that insurgents had done it. Hardly the actions of innocent men, had it been an understandable scenario like you describe they would have called the medics and their leaders and said “We’ve got civilians caught in the crossfire.” and that would have been that. Civilians get killed by American soldiers in Iraq all the time but they aren’t the subject of criminal investigations by the Pentagon, what does that tell you about this situation?
I do not believe that Marines are in the habit of killing civilians like this. Did they snap? Were they ordered to? Is there some piece of the puzzle we’re missing? Are they a unit were all the dregs and psychos were put together creating a time bomb? (that’s what I think happened with the animals that plotted and executed a child rape and murder.) I have no idea what the full story is and that’s what I hoping the trial will bring to light.
If there is one.
You can bet that the Bush Administration will do all they can to prevent one, as is their way.
And CY, do I really need to go through your archives to find examples of you or approving links to those rendering judgement without trial?
Posted by: salvage at August 02, 2006 12:36 PM (xWitf)
24
Actually the Marines did inform there squad and platoon leaders that they civilians down. If they had just went shot them up and walked away how would we know about it now?
Posted by: 81 at August 02, 2006 01:01 PM (Mv/2X)
25
If you can't understand deliberately shooting civilians in self-defence or a combat situation and just shooting them then you can't be helped.
Oh, that's right. They just wandered into a neighborhood, and for no reason whatsoever, they started slaughtering people.
There wasn't an IED explosion that killed one of their fellow Marines. The Marines weren't fighting running gunbattles all across Haditha that day. Tapes of the Marine radio network did not catch apparent sounds of hostile gunfire, and others did not see suspected insurgents running from the area. It was just a leisurely afternoon stroll/massacre. No reason at all try to celar buildings like they've been trained, as a previous commetor with actual military service notes.
As always, the liberal's primary interest in this matter is trying to find another way to discredit a president that, though presumably a dumb fake Texas hick, outsmarts them at nearly every turn. Screw the presumption of innocence if BusHilter can be even slightly tarnished in some odd way.
As for your final comment, salvage, I make judgements all the time, about all sorts of things, but I do try to give soldiers in a warzone the presumption of innocenceat least until they are charged, even when the media-presneted evidence is strongly slanted against them.
As an American that actually appreciates those that put their lives on the line for me, I figure I owe them that much.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at August 02, 2006 01:08 PM (g5Nba)
26
PP - "reckless disregard for their truthfullness/accuracy", seems like that would be a high threshhold to prove given the source of his information. Its not like he over heard something in the mens room and repeated it as fact. He was briefed by deceptive Pentagon individuals according to the lawsuit. I guess congressmen should now assume every brief they receive is suspect unless independently verified.
I agree with CY. Deliberate does not mean a criminal act. People are killed deliberately all the times. SWAT snipers taking out a hostage taker or cops shooting criminals with drawn weapons pointed at them or others. The criminality of the act depends on WHY. If the Marines thought they were getting fire from the buildings where the civs were, its tragic but probably no charges. If they were in some sort of "war-rage" then probably there will be charges.
Posted by: matt a at August 02, 2006 01:17 PM (E+3yy)
27
"As an American that actually appreciates those that put their lives on the line for me, I figure I owe them that much."
When in doubt, wrap yourself in a flag and claim righteous indignation -- preferably with a healthy dose of moralizing self-importance.
Posted by: Lint at August 02, 2006 01:25 PM (1SuKf)
28
Face it CY, you're losing this battle just like we're losing the war. You should get a volume discount on white flags.
Posted by: tbogg at August 02, 2006 01:36 PM (n+/Jk)
29
Lint,
What is wrong with letting the trial come to the truth? I agree with CY, we DO owe them that much. That doesn't mean let them go if they are guilty of a crime but it does mean let those that have the facts (not just news stories) present that at a trial and let a jury decide. Your remark was totally uncalled for.
You don't like what is said, present your facts, even an opinion, not a slur.
Posted by: Retired Navy at August 02, 2006 01:51 PM (JSetw)
30
Unlike the circling jackals, I’ll wait for the OFFICIAL report before condemning these Marines. An IED was detonated near them, they were shot at, they shot back, and civilians were killed. Was it within the ROE? Was it, as Murtha claims, “cold-blooded murder”? That’s what the investigation is for. The AP story today only confirmed that the Marines shot the civilians, but it still doesn’t answer the above questions. It also states that no bodies were to be exhumed, so a large part of forensic evidence will not be available for the defense of these Marines.
Those of you pounding CY seem to be of this mindset in regards to our troops:
They told stories that at times they had personally raped, cut off ears, cut off heads, taped wires from portable telephones to human genitals and turned up the power, cut off limbs, blown up bodies, randomly shot at civilians, razed villages in fashion reminiscent of Ghengis Khan, shot cattle and dogs for fun, poisoned food stocks, and generally ravaged the countryside of South Vietnam in addition to the normal ravage of war and the normal and very particular ravaging which is done by the applied bombing power of this country. -- John Kerry, testifying before the Senate Committee on Foreign Relations, April 22, 1971
When I consider the job our troops have, I start with the highest respect for what they do. When someone makes claims against them, I will wait for the investigation to complete before I pass judgment – as CY and Retired Navy point out, we owe them that much because they earned it. If the investigation shows that they are at fault, they should be tried and punished accordingly.
Why are you in such a hurry to convict these Marines?
Posted by: SouthernRoots at August 02, 2006 02:08 PM (jHBWL)
31
CY, is apologizing for this administration not getting more and more difficult every day? Why are you working so hard? Quit fighting it, come into the light. You sound exhausted. It's much easier over here, where the facts can be reported as is and still support your arguments. Think about all the time you'll save to spend with your loved ones when you can skip the microsopic parsing and history re-writing phases of making your points. You can be happier, sleep better and help your fellow man all at the same time. Imagine, no more justifying killing innocent women and children. Sounds good, doesn't it. You can do it, man.
Posted by: David at August 02, 2006 02:14 PM (jmjB6)
32
CY: "I question the timing."
"...a pentagon official said Wednesday."
Damn objectively pro-terrorist pentagon officials.
Posted by: David at August 02, 2006 02:18 PM (jmjB6)
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Southern Roots:"The AP story today only confirmed that the Marines shot the civilians, but it still doesn’t answer the above questions."
I believe the word you were looking for is "deliberately". It must be a slippery sucker because you guys keep leaving it out whenever you reference that story.
Posted by: David at August 02, 2006 02:23 PM (jmjB6)
34
matt a:"I agree with CY. Deliberate does not mean a criminal act. People are killed deliberately all the times. SWAT snipers taking out a hostage taker or cops shooting criminals with drawn weapons pointed at them or others. The criminality of the act depends on WHY. If the Marines thought they were getting fire from the buildings where the civs were, its tragic but probably no charges. If they were in some sort of "war-rage" then probably there will be charges.
Dude, I do not think that story means what you think it means.
Posted by: David at August 02, 2006 02:32 PM (jmjB6)
35
Why do facts hate America?
Posted by: Sam Shelbyton at August 02, 2006 02:35 PM (62NkU)
36
No one is in a hurry to convict these Marines. No one is suggesting that a full investigation be bypassed and, if the evidence warrants, a fair trial be held.
All Tbogg did was point out that CY made a fool out of himself by accusing Murtha of "Cold Blooded Libel" for suggesting the killings were esentially murder, when on the same day an article comes down, based on statements from a Pentagon official made today, that evidence supports a continued investigation into the possibility that it was essentially murder.
None of us knows the truth of it, though the DoD knows more than us -- the same DoD which fed Murtha information (which the libel case alleges is "inaccurate and false") supporting the charge of wrongdoing, and which today confirms evidence exists which supports a continued investigation. To the same extent that it is wrong to state without further investigation and trial that the accused troops are guilty, it is wrong to call Murtha libelous.
One serious question to CY and his supporters: Why bend over backwards to try to establish through conjecture and hypotheticals the innocence of these accused troops, beyond the "innocent until proven guilty" standard for all accused? The war in Iraq is now well into the "hearts and minds" phase, where quelling the insurgency requires a lot of support from the Iraqi people. The quickest way to thwart that is for US troops to indescriminately kill innocents, mistreat disarmed prisoners, etc.
Thus, any actions by individual troops that are seen as excessive violence is counterproductive to our mission, and can lead to anger against US troops generally, thus fueling the insurgency. Simply put, individual troops who kill or mistreat civilians or disarmed combatants may breed more insurgents and get other troops killed down the line.
Therefore, a wait and see stance concerning these particular charges is fair. Perhaps Murta went over the line in proclaiming them cold blooded killers before the investigation is complete. But can't you see why he would be concerned, why we all should be concerned, about this type of behavior? Why are you rushing to figure out ways to exculpate these accused troops, when, if true, their actions have very negative results on our mission in Iraq?
Posted by: aplomb at August 02, 2006 02:37 PM (778mn)
37
David - You've made that accusation a couple of times and it is stupid and misleading.
I would trust that when our troops are responding to an attack they deliberately pull the trigger. I would also trust that they deliberately point their weapons in the direction of the attack.
The question is, were the civilian deaths an unfortunate result of return fire (response to an attack), or did the Marines actually go in and intentially commit cold-blooded murder?
I'll wait for the OFFICIAL report. What's you hurry?
Posted by: SouthernRoots at August 02, 2006 02:38 PM (jHBWL)
38
Southern Roots, do you think that pentagon spokesman is simply saying they've confirmed the bullets in the victims came from marines' rifles? If so, I believe you've misread the piece.
And, by the way, what's with the "stupid" stuff. Are you a dick?
Posted by: David at August 02, 2006 02:53 PM (jmjB6)
39
David, I'm no more of a dick than you are. In the case of our soldiers, I'll stand with "trust, but verify". We'll see.
In the last few years of reading AP and other media outlets, I have been forced into a case of "Be skeptical, but verify", especially when "anonymous sources" are used.
The word "deliberately" was used in restating the accuations made against the Marines. It is not clear to me that the Pentagon made that statement or if the AP wrote their own interpretation of what they were told. The AP story also made it clear that, "[investigators] may be asked to probe further as Marine Corps and Navy prosecutors review the evidence and determine whether to recommend criminal charges"
Which means, I'll wait for the OFFICIAL report.
Posted by: SouthernRoots at August 02, 2006 03:35 PM (jHBWL)
40
I swear to god when I read "America's most disgusting ex-Marine" an image of Ollie North leapt immediately to mind.
Posted by: Gus at August 02, 2006 04:17 PM (Z4/3q)
41
We should let them have a trial before passing judgement.
And if someone comes out and passes a guilty judgement guilt before the trial, sue them because, you know, the individuals involved are really innocent.
Which we know before the trial.
CY, earlier you asked if we should just skip the trial and execute them. Would you like to just skip the trial and give them all medals?
Posted by: Holy_Roller at August 02, 2006 04:52 PM (Fmgb8)
42
Actually, HR, I gave my answer back in May:
Someone who truly supports the troops, even if they do not support the war, would want this incident fully investigated to uncover the truth. They would want to know the facts.
They would want to know if the Marines fired out of blind rage at the loss of their friends, and they would be equally interested in finding out if the Marines assaulted that location because someone inside fired upon them, as they claimed. Was it a slaughter of innocents, or were insurgents firing from within civilian homes? Were those that triggered the IED among the dead? We do not yet know, and some are already passing judgment.
Of course, I'm asking for facts, while you're side is going for a firing squad before charges are even filed.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at August 02, 2006 04:58 PM (psJM2)
43
And to think...people call RWers like this extremist and nutsy. What can they be thinking?
Posted by: Liberal, Not Paranoid at August 02, 2006 05:35 PM (Ov+qi)
44
And to think...people call RWers like this extremist and nutsy. What can they be thinking?
Posted by: Liberal, Not Paranoid at August 02, 2006 05:35 PM (Ov+qi)
45
Wow CY, Tbogg's just torn you asunder over this one, hasn't he? lol...
Posted by: Jody at August 02, 2006 08:01 PM (nN6FY)
46
Confederate Yankee,
Besides being completely wrong about the "debunked" part of Murtha's representations, you have somehow managed to miss the signifigance of the Pentagon issuing the statement concurrent to the frivilous lawsuit against Murtha. If you have a suspicious mind and it appears that you do, there are no such things as a coincidence. Why would the Pentagon essentially validate Murtha's statements the day that a lawsuit questioning those statements was filed? The answer is simple and should be understood by you and the other "military readers" here: the Pentagon had provided "covering fire" for Murtha. Now why would the Pentagon provide "this fire"? The answer is again obvious, the Pentagon other than the most senior political leadership knows that the adventure in Iraq is a failure and has known for over two years. Murtha is just the messenger, and you cant handle that truth.
Posted by: skeeenah at August 02, 2006 10:55 PM (z4VSR)
47
Are you any more dead if shot by a terrorist male than a terrorists female? As for children, there are no children above the age of three in the Islamic world. They have them brainwashed and ready to kill anyone and everyone by that age. Forget how they abuse the women and children in the name of some phony god. It seems to me that they do everything to the women, children and helpless that every lefties swears to be against, but the lefties keep supporting the terrorists. Anyone got an answer to, Why? Murtha doesn't need to be sued, he needs to be dragged out and shot, legally or illegally, just so he's shot. Use Hanoi John and Turbin Durbin as backstops for the bullets. That's my plan as soon as the lefties start the civil war they always hype.
Posted by: Scrapiron at August 03, 2006 12:40 AM (wZLWV)
48
To those on the left, please read carefully to what we are saying.
Let the TRIAL uncover the facts, if found guilty, let the law deal with them. That is NOT looking for an easy out, that is looking for JUSTICE.
As you can tell by my Retired Navy label, I served. I can say without a doubt that most of us that served want Justice done. We don't want any bad apples giving the military a bad apperance, we try to deal with them accordingly and quickly. They are trying to get to the TRUTH behind Haditha and we say let them before judgement is passed on the Marines that aren't even charged yet.
Murtha opened his mouth and STATED OFFICIALLY that they were "COLD BLOODED KILLERS". That is Libel since there wasne't even a trial and no charges yet. It is twice as bad coming from a politician, it was just grandstanding and used for political points.
Iraq has been freed from a dictator that sold the U.N. food and supplies to line his own pockets, Illegally sold oil to those countrys mostly opposed to the invasion, put people in jail for any reason he could think of, gassed villages, had his sons use people like animals, target practice, torture, rape rooms, etc... the list goes on.
Now those prisons aren't there, people can actually say what they want without fear of secret police or neighbors turning you in, power and clean water, kids going to schools, including girls (imagine that), free elections several times (These had a better turn out than the ones WE have).
There is still violence, there are still hold-outs and terrorists (many from Syria), but the overall has been a HUGE gain.
How are we losing?
If we pull out it would make the Killing fields of Viet-Nam and Cambodia look like a day at the park. So, should we pull out?
Posted by: Retired Navy at August 03, 2006 05:24 AM (lNB+R)
49
Retired Navy - I agree that the Marines should get a trial and be held accountable. That being said, it does seem like the tail wagging the dog with this lawsuit against Murtha. Make the potential defendants look good attacking an anti-war ex-marine congressmen infront of his potential jury pool (i.e. his millitary peers). BTW, what does it mean to "OFFICIALLY STATE" as opposed to unofficially state? Does anyone know if he said this "On the Record" (on the congress floor)? If I remember right, he gave an interview and stated his opinion based on briefings given to him. If that's libel then everytime someone is stopped on the street by a tv crew and asked their opinion of the President could be held to the same regard.
As far as Iraq goes, while the water and power situation is improved, lets not ignore the fact that we are the ones that bombed their water and electricity plants that put them into that position in the first place. Fixing what we broke seems a disingenuous approach towards convincing everyone the Iraqi people are better off than before. Sadam's prisons have been replaced by our prisons holding suspected terrorists, no secret police arresting people have been replaced by religious militias kidnapping and executing dozens of people at a time. I'd argure that huge gains have come with a lot of real chaos...
When people say we are losing the Iraq war, I think most are talking about the "the minds and soul" phase in which we try to create an ally out of Iraq and we are not handling that well. Sending kids (and girls) to school is all well and good but if they are learning what the Saudi kids are learning, we are just teaching the next generation to hate us as well...
I don't think pull out is the answer, but "stay the course" isn't a plan either but more of a hope things will turn around. Where is a laid out plan on how to stabalize Iraq? It seems to be more of an adhoc lets-see-how-today-goes approach. The administration is fond of saying, the commanders on the ground will make the decisions which is fine for millitary situations but it also comes across as deflecting responsibility for the chaos currently there.
Posted by: matt a at August 03, 2006 07:58 AM (E+3yy)
50
Matt,
I was in error, his actual words to the News conference were "killed innocent civilians in cold blood,". That is an official statement he made to the press. He could have just said that it appeared they were killed by the Marines and an investigation was started as was reported to him.
It's the "in cold blood" part that irritates me. Maybe it's not libel and I can see your point on that part that its the tail wagging the dog.
I still don't like his statement and believe it was grandstanding on his part to gain some political points at the expense of the Marines. Let them have their trial.
As to Iraq, look up some clips from before the war, conditions Now are vastly better than they were then. I wasn't comparing now to when we invaded, I was comparing it to before the war.
As far as a comprehensive plan goes, I would like to see something for the rebuilding but no dates as to pulling out troops, that part is rediculous. Stay the course isn't a stratgy, but the DEMS 'cut and run' is even worse.
I know there are more plans out there that we aren't privy to but some of them should be shown to us.
As to what the Iraqi kids are learning, that is all the more reason to keep plugging away at a Democracy there, so there will be an option to learn other than Programmed Brainwashing.
Posted by: Retired Navy at August 03, 2006 08:20 AM (y67bA)
51
Retired Navy,
By your logic, I would be libeling OJ Simpson if I called him a killer, because the courts cleared him as innocent. Yes. The courts have the final say in our society when it comes to meting out punishments. But we are all entitled to our opinions, including Murtha, who is probably basing it on some pretty damning evidence.
As for Iraq, I'm sure it is more ideologically pleasing for democracy lovers such as yourself, what with the purple fingers and all. But for people trying to get by in Iraq, I'm pretty sure life is worse. Saddam killed a lot of people, but not at the rate we're seeing (something like 100 dead turning up a day, right?). Also, Saddam was secular. Women could actually walk about and work under his rule. Now, the country is effectively under siege from the fundamentalists. Women might have the freedom to vote, but not to walk around on their own without fear. Even worse, the country is practically in the opening movements of all-out civil war. Tyranny is terrible. Anarchy is worse.
By the way, Saddam was, if anything, even more of an S.O.B. back in the 80s when he was shaking hands with Donald Rumsfeld. Back then, we didn't have such a problem with gassed villages and rape rooms. Even today, we deal with plenty of horrible dictators (including that charmer in Uzbeckistan, Karimov, who is fond of boiling people alive). We can't claim the moral high ground in taking out Saddam when it is clear that we had no problem with his tyrannizing ways until he stopped becoming our S.O.B.
Posted by: Battlepanda at August 03, 2006 08:48 AM (tOWhS)
52
Retired - I agree that Murtha was grandstanding but I think that is a given for any politician (Remember Frist diagnosing Terry Shiavo's condition from a video tape?).
Conditions in Iraq - Still somewhat disingenuous to say look at before the war (I assume you are talking about the second war, not Desert Storm). We bombed/rocketed Baghdad mercilessly for months before we took back Kuwait and then Iraq was under economic sanctions prohibiting them from doing much for almost a decade. Yeah, Sadam started it and got punched in the nose but the US has been responsible for the destruction of much of the Iraqi infrastructure. We like to forget that but I'm sure there are plenty of Iraqi's that remember the living conditions (water and power wise) from before Desert Storm.
I would like to see comprehensive plans too. I believe we are in there for at least 10 more years. Wouldn't it be nice if there was a plan laying out year 1 - build roads, year 2 build sewers, etc. Instead we get lets "toss a ton of money at willing contractors and get taken to the cleaners" approach. I agree that setting dates for troop removal is stupid given there isn't a comprehensive rebuilding plan that would eleviate the need to have them there.
Kids and learning - Democracy doesn't prevent brainwashing, however, it can institutionalize it (i.e. see the great debate about creatism vs evolution going on in our democracy now).
Posted by: matt a at August 03, 2006 09:33 AM (E+3yy)
53
NOTE: This post has just been updated. It seems the AP's account has been directly contradicted.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at August 03, 2006 09:40 AM (g5Nba)
54
Iraq was messed up before GW I, Iran-Iraq war in the 80's, many coups in the 40's, 60's, an 70's kept the area unstable and but Saddam in charge.
He brutalized the people to keep them down so they wouldn't get power the way he did, gassed a whole village because they opposed him and killed an unknown number of his own citizens.
U.N imposed sanctions along with a no-fly zone that he violated numerous times along with getting missle radar lock on our planed patroling it,(I was there for some of them), the U.N. did nothing about it. Emboldened, he decided to increase his economic power by invading Kuwait(Lining his own pockets by selling the food he got for the Oil for Food program mandated by the U.N. coupled with the now knowd illegal sales to France and Russia lined his pockets well, but he wanted more)
During the invasion he believed he had the right to take what he wanted and the U.N. wouldn't do anything about it. We did and were made to stop at the border. We did bomb Bagdad but it was already a mess still from the Iran-Iraq war.
They haven't been stable since before the 1900's, we didn't make it worse, we are trying to make it better.
Posted by: Retired Navy at August 03, 2006 11:18 AM (elhVA)
55
Now I'm laughing all the more. Geez...let the facts come out and let's see what happens.
But for those of you who bashed CY by taking an AP story at it's word - how naive are you? The AP has been shown to blow thing out of proportion over and over again during the last two years. Now we have Time (who is usually very liberal) saying that NO CONCLUSIONS HAVE BEEN MADE. Don't you feel a little silly now? I know - we're not lauging with you - we are laughing at you!!!
BTW - Battlepanda - if OJ wanted to take the time to, he could sue you. Very easily. And he could stand on his non-conviction (right or wrong) and probably win, unless you have a few million sitting around to defend yourself.
But Murtha, in his capacity as a Congressperson (one running for reelection by the way), made unsubstantiated statements about people which could have harmed their careers, reputation, etc. He is a good target for a law suit. And once he is deposed, and they find out who gave him the information, I would expect follow-on suits against the others involved. Remember - we can say things about public figures and have some immunity. The opposite is not true, because they hold so much power.
Posted by: Specter at August 03, 2006 11:33 AM (ybfXM)
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Gee...what happened to Tbogg's army? They seem to have disappeared....
Posted by: Specter at August 03, 2006 11:52 AM (ybfXM)
57
Specter, David also hasn't come back as yet. He spent a lot of time pointing out the AP story using the word "deliberately" and how we supposedly glossed over it. We counseled patience against the lynch mob and today Time contradicts AP (Anonymous Propaganda).
The Marines are innocent until proven guilty. We have to wait for the OFFICIAL report, something I am will to do, unlike TBogg, David, et. al.
Posted by: SouthernRoots at August 03, 2006 03:10 PM (jHBWL)
58
You got it right Southern - It is embarassing to quote an article and then have it blow up in your face. Personally - any time an article talks about unnamed sources I am suspicious to begin with. Add that to the fact it came from AP and...well you know what I mean.
Posted by: Specter at August 03, 2006 05:02 PM (ybfXM)
59
the really telling part is the law suit. this is almost certainly an act one would take when they are cleared of a crime, like richard jewel or dr hatfill suing the media and the gov when they were cleared. turn out the light HuffPo, the party's over, these guys are gonna walk, for the most part, maybe something low level like bad conduct, but not murder
Posted by: ray robison at August 03, 2006 07:39 PM (4joLu)
60
Only on a right wing blog is this:
It is work noting that Murtha's claim of a cover-up has already conclusively debunked.
followed by this:
We all want the truth of the matter in this incident, and if the Marines did murder Iraqi civilians, they should be tried in a court of law and then sentenced for their crimes if convicted.
Instead, many liberals seem willing to skip the trial in favor of simply lynching those accused, based upon sometimes faulty and always incomplete media reports.
Our Marines, and the Iraqi people, deserthisve better than that.
yeild to claims of like this by the posters:
The Marines are innocent until proven guilty. We have to wait for the OFFICIAL report, something I am will to do, unlike TBogg, David, et. al.
xxxxx
For those keeping score at home, Confederate Yankee has stated that Murtha's claim was "completely debunked," but concludes in an update that somehow vindicates his original premise of complete debunkment that we should await the trial before reaching any conclusions or statements. While most would probably just think that logic makes absolutely no sense and is perhaps a bit hair brained and desperate, the true beauty of this scene is the willingness of CY's fellow travellers to abscond from reality and assert the critics of CY have already made up THEIR minds about the issue at hand. If you can manage to take a step back, that is really funnty.
Posted by: skeeenah at August 03, 2006 10:43 PM (z4VSR)
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Ah, the liberal issue of reading comprehension and subject matter ignorance raises its ugly head once more in something that calls itself "skeeenah."
Murtha's claim that there was a high-level coverup was in fact a separate investigation from the physical shooting investigation, and it has already concluded, definitively, that Murtha was dead wrong when he tried to say their was a high level cover-up.
The actual Haditha shootings is another matter still under investigation.
Two separate issues, genius.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at August 03, 2006 11:07 PM (psJM2)
62
CY,
Let's not go confusing this witch hunt with a bunch of facts. There's an election coming up you know.
What I don't understand is why the left's whole worldview is wrapped up in atrocities being commited by American troops. Terrorists can commit the most dispicable crimes imaginable and they couldn't care less, but the smallest hint of U.S. troop involvement and they come out of the woodwork to accuse anyone of not gathering rope of a coverup. When that falls apart they go back to their cubbyholes and wait for the next unsubstantiated rumer by the AP or Reuters. I can't imagine being so overcome by hatred of whoever I considered my political foes that I would actually wish for our own troops to commit terrible crimes in the desperate hope that some of that scandal would rub off on my opponents. How pathetic.
Posted by: Wilbur at August 04, 2006 09:53 AM (1EvXm)
63
HUH?
First Sentence in the post:
Cold-Blooded Libel
America's most disgusting Ex-Marine is sued for libel over his allegations that Marines in Haditha "killed innocent civilians in cold blood."
Next sentence ascribed to the blogger:
It is work noting that Murtha's claim of a cover-up has already conclusively debunked.
Clearly the intention was not to link your claim of conclusive debunkment to the first sentence. And these two "points", clearly concur with your third update:
We all want the truth of the matter in this incident, and if the Marines did murder Iraqi civilians, they should be tried in a court of law and then sentenced for their crimes if convicted.
Instead, many liberals seem willing to skip the trial in favor of simply lynching those accused, based upon sometimes faulty and always incomplete media reports.
LOL!
You reference an article that "completely debunked" Murtha's reporting of the civilian deaths in support of your first premise and then you and your surrogates claim the other side did exactly what you did!! Now That is pure genius, stars and bars boy.
Posted by: skeeenah at August 04, 2006 07:03 PM (z4VSR)
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Let me see if I understand this, Skeeenah: CY suggests waiting for a trial, before pronouncing guilt or innocence...
...and the trial was waiting on exhumation, so bodies could be examined to help in verifying guilt.
Or innocence.
But the antagonistic Shi'ah Muslim community, after giving aid and shelter to the terrorists attacking the Marines, and being informed of the consequences of a thorough forensic examination of the dead involved, REFUSED exhumation, right?
So there will probably be no trial because there's not enough evidence (without exhuming the bodies) to even merit going to trial, therefore the Pentagon is telling the special committee to stand down because as things stand now, it makes "proving murder 'very challenging.'"
So we now have no way of 'proving' the civilians were shot by terrorists on their way through, just ahead of the Marines, do we?
So the Marines, who should have been 'innocent until proven guilty', have Murtha's OFFICIAL pronouncement to deal with, don't they?
Is it making sense now, skeeeeeenah?
And in addition to the war we're winning in Iraq and Afghanistan, NOW there's suddenly a war somewhere that we're LOSING? Wow, how fast the changes come...
(CY: Concur Yr Analysis. Stay mindful, and keep up the good work.)
Posted by: Karridine at August 05, 2006 07:27 AM (Z6GIx)
65
So we now have no way of 'proving' the civilians were shot by terrorists on their way through, just ahead of the Marines, do we?
So the Marines, who should have been 'innocent until proven guilty', have Murtha's OFFICIAL pronouncement to deal with, don't they?
Is it making sense now, skeeeeeenah?
xxxxxxxx
lol
#1) "Terrorists" set up the marines in Haditha? Call Rush or Savage or whichever liar, you listen to on Monday, and let them know that, kay? Maybe that little gem of misinformation, can start percolating through the RW noise machine? Who knows maybe Rush will hire you as a writer? Then again this is a website that questions whether Qana happened, isnt it?
#2) LOL! What is Murtha OFFICIALLY IN CHARGE OF -other than himself? He like you has an opinion in this matter. He -unlike you is wired into the Pentagon and has been for the past thirty years and has been obviously working at the direction and behest of a certain element of the Pentagon since his calls to end the debacle in Iraq.
Again and only because I am a liberal and want to help the less fortunate, the original thrust of this post was to 1) discredit Murtha and 2) support/cover for the "accused" troops. Only after the fact and much derision did the Confederate Yankee find his high ground in the third update to his original post. His first post consisted of an 1)ad hominem attack on Murtha 2) a reference to a law suit that will be thrown out in two minutes and 3) a statement to further discredit Murtha. That was it -nothing else. No "lets wait for the JAG and military investigators to figure this out. " In the shennanigans that followed, CY disputed the information that contradicted him, refuted the information that contradicted him, and at long last came to his holy "wait and see" highground -all the while he was able to call a decorated Marine disgusting and virtually a liar. That doesnt seem to be taking a "wait and see" attitude does it? It seems like he already has his chips in the pot, but then again so do you.
Get it yet?
Posted by: skeeenah at August 06, 2006 11:35 AM (z4VSR)
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skeeenah - "-all the while he was able to call a decorated Marine disgusting and virtually a liar.
These Marines have said that they followed the ROE. The have said that they did NOT MURDER the civilians. The investigation and/or trial will bring out the truth.
Your "decorated Marine" called these decorated combat Marines cold blooded murderers - in effect calling them disgusting and liars - before any facts were absolutely proven.
Your rants don't change any of that.
Posted by: SouthernRoots at August 06, 2006 12:37 PM (jHBWL)
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IDF Investigating Qana Because of Blog Reports
From the Jerusalem Post:
The IDF is looking into allegations raised over the past few days by several pro-Israel, Jewish and conservative Weblogs that Hizbullah may have staged aspects of the Kana tragedy on Sunday, in which some 60 Lebanese bodies were removed from a building that collapsed seven hours after being hit in an Israel Air Force strike.
The dead were mainly children, women and elderly people.
The International Committee of the Red Cross Mission in Israel said Tuesday that it would inform its Swiss headquarters about the allegations and seek to clarify the questions raised.
Israel has acknowledged hitting the building, and said 150 Katyushas had been fired from the village in the previous 20 days, with Hizbullah hiding rocket launchers in civilian buildings there. Israel said it did not know civilians were inside the building and expressed sorrow over the tragedy.
The IDF is investigating questions raised by
Confederate Yankee,
EU Referendum, and other blogs and web sites.
The questions include:
- When did the building collapse, and what caused the collapse?
- Were the photos taken of the victims staged?
- Why do the bodies of the victims not show the crushing injuries one would expect in a building collapse?
- Why weren't journalists allowed near the building?
- Why is their such a discrepancy in the initial casualty figures cited to the world (55-60) and the number of bodes recovered by the Lebanese Red Cross (2
? - Who is the man known as “Green Helmet” who was in so many of these pictures, and why was he in other, similar photos dating back to 1996?
The International Committee of the Red Cross is currently preparing a report based upon data collected by the Lebanese Red Cross.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
08:27 AM
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1
FYI, Jonah Goldberg provides a link to your blog in his article today on NRO.
Posted by: Matt at August 02, 2006 08:43 AM (3bFaP)
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at August 02, 2006 08:50 AM (g5Nba)
3
Who is the green helmet guy? via An Unsealed Room:
His name is Abdel Qader. He claims that they couldn't reach the building before 8 am because of the conditions of the road and the danger of being hit by the Israeli airforce. His voice is girly and his clothes look impeccably clean!
There's a video of him on youtube now (aljazeera interview)
Posted by: Kevin at August 02, 2006 10:36 AM (++0ve)
4
Good video, clearly shows it was a photo-op.
In comparison, I remember footage from suicide bombing in Israel, where everybody would be rushing to clear the area, the paramedics in the area would be rushing to help the injured, and would yell to everybody to get the f*ck out of the way.
Here -- although different from a suicide bombing -- they aren't even trying to find survivors; the death of the civilians seems to be a forgone conclusion.
Posted by: dna at August 02, 2006 11:02 AM (tJzld)
Posted by: Retired Spy at August 02, 2006 12:55 PM (Xw2ki)
6
Yep. CY is on the job -- worldwide investigative journalism from the back of an El Camino in North Carolina. Thank God for bum-leg Bob.
Posted by: Lint at August 02, 2006 01:28 PM (1SuKf)
7
Why is this dust covered baby's pacifier completely clean?
http://www.eureferendum.com/admin/media/green%20helmet%20004.jpeg
Posted by: Dave at August 02, 2006 01:34 PM (ptid4)
8
"In comparison, I remember footage from suicide bombing in Israel, where everybody would be rushing to clear the area, the paramedics in the area would be rushing to help the injured, and would yell to everybody to get the f*ck out of the way."
there are LOTS of photos at this gallery:
http://www.ghaliboun.net/gallery/thumbnails.php?album=22
i dont think you guys are aware of that URL yet.
Posted by: archduke at August 02, 2006 03:31 PM (PAyi1)
9
Here's one of the weirder images - from that gallery
http://www.ghaliboun.net/gallery/displayimage.php?album=22&pos=98
anyone else think it slightly strange that a cameraman is allowed INTO the collapsed building and allowed to get in the way of the "rescue" effort?
Who is "Mr Cameraman" ?
Posted by: archduke at August 02, 2006 03:40 PM (PAyi1)
10
archduke wrote:
anyone else think it slightly strange that a cameraman is allowed INTO the collapsed building and allowed to get in the way of the "rescue" effort?
You're right: the press-crew seems to be intrinsic to the rescue effort, as if it couldn't go forward if they weren't there.
Also, what about this one? I thought the building collapsed.
Posted by: dna at August 02, 2006 06:18 PM (tJzld)
11
Here are the answers you seek:
When did the building collapse?
At 1am, as _all_ the eyewitnesses reported from the start:
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/744332.html
http://www.canada.com/nationalpost/news/story.html?id=101b250b-92be-4dae-9bd9-be7b62b02192
http://kavkazcenter.com/eng/content/2006/08/01/5159.shtml
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/5228224.stm
http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Story/0,,1833884,00.html?gusrc=rss&feed=1
and what caused the collapse?
Er - the IAF dropped a bomb on it? Just a guess. But the IDF admits dropping the bomb, and the people in the village say it landed on them. I'm sure the conspiracy theorists can come up with something much more complicated though, if it suits their prejudices.
Were the photos taken of the victims staged?
This is no evidence of this - though a lot of people seem to want it to be true.
Why do the bodies of the victims not show the crushing injuries one would expect in a building collapse?
Because the basement they were in was _not_ crushed - this is clear in all the pictures of the site. They died from the blast or from being buried under earth and rubble. They were certainly injured though, killed in fact, a lot of them. According to this report by a journalist who witnessed the rescue:
"They came across the smallest corpses last, many intact but with lungs crushed by the blast wave of the bombing."
http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Story/0,,1833884,00.html?gusrc=rss&feed=1
Why weren’t journalists allowed near the building?
They were - that's how come there are hundreds of newswire photos of it all over the net. Doh!
Why is their such a discrepancy in the initial casualty figures cited to the world (55-60) and the number of bodes recovered by the Lebanese Red Cross (2

?
28 bodies recovered, 13 still missing = 42. Full report, with the names and ages of those identified so far, is at:
http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/HRW/c934b8a94f226d3ab6461928c606cb65.htm
The initial reports were based on the number of people known to have been in the basement (63) less the number of known survivors at the time (9). The initial figure of 'over 60' was given to journalists by the Lebanese police.
Who is the man known as “Green Helmet” who was in so many of these pictures, and why was he in other, similar photos dating back to 1996?
He is a Lebanese civil defence worker named Jradi, from Tyre, and it is his job to help at these kinds of incidents in the Tyre area. He was interviewed many times on the day. Try this Google news search
http://news.google.co.uk/news?q=jradi&btnG=Search+News
Posted by: billy at August 02, 2006 07:35 PM (lY0Zo)
12
Were the photos taken of the victims staged?
This is no evidence of this - though a lot of people seem to want it to be true
Depends on how you interpret "staged". Were the rescue workers posing with the bodies so that the cameramen could get the best shots? Absolutely - but this is just propaganda, not a crime.
Were the deaths faked somehow? No evidence to support that.
The initial reports were based on the number of people known to have been in the basement (63) less the number of known survivors at the time (9). The initial figure of 'over 60' was given to journalists by the Lebanese police.
In other words, they have reversed the regular way of reporting fatalities to increase the propaganda value. Rather than saying "26 killed, 28 unaccounted for", or something similar, they assume that anyone not known to be alive is in fact dead. Get the high number out fast, because it's going on page one and the correction will be on page C-27. Again, though, just propaganda, not a crime.
Posted by: Pixy Misa at August 02, 2006 09:26 PM (FRalS)
13
I see that LGF is making the point on the inverted reporting too.
Posted by: Pixy Misa at August 02, 2006 10:42 PM (FRalS)
14
>In other words, they have reversed the regular way of reporting fatalities to increase the propaganda value.
Do you remember the reported fatalities on 9/11 ? There were initially 60,000 people inside WTC. Several hours after the planes went in, news programmes talked about 6,000 people dead. This number went down and down the following days to about half.
Posted by: daniel at August 06, 2006 03:39 AM (yh5S4)
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