Confederate Yankee
February 13, 2007
Iran Implicated
06-13-2007 Update: This Daily Telegraph story now appears to be all but completely fabricated. Burning the Smoking Gun.
This is the Steyr HS50, a single-shot bolt-action rifle of the shell-holder type, chambered in .50 BMG. You can get one if you pass a NICS background check and have $5,599.99 to spare (or you can get it on sale for
$3,999.99), plus another $1,000 or more for one of the handful of scopes than can withstand the recoil of such a rifle, and of course, the cash needed for the custom-made .50 BMG cartridges these rifles digest (military-grade 50 BMG ammo, designed for machine guns, is not designed for the long-range accuracy these precision rifles demand).
Field & Stream had a
nice write up about the growing number of American shooters who use rifles of this caliber and design for long-range marksmanship competitions and hunting.
Today's article in the U.K.
Telegraph is far more disturbing. It seems that Iran purchased 800 of the Steyr HS50 rifles pictured above in 2006, and to date, more than 100 have been captured in Iraq.
Say hello to the
smoking gun.
Austrian sniper rifles that were exported to Iran have been discovered in the hands of Iraqi terrorists, The Daily Telegraph has learned.
More than 100 of the.50 calibre weapons, capable of penetrating body armour, have been discovered by American troops during raids.
The guns were part of a shipment of 800 rifles that the Austrian company, Steyr-Mannlicher, exported legally to Iran last year.
The sale was condemned in Washington and London because officials were worried that the weapons would be used by insurgents against British and American troops.
Within 45 days of the first HS50 Steyr Mannlicher rifles arriving in Iran, an American officer in an armoured vehicle was shot dead by an Iraqi insurgent using the weapon.
Over the last six months American forces have found small caches of the £10,000 rifles but in the last 24 hours a raid in Baghdad brought the total to more than 100, US defence sources reported.
It will be very difficult for Iran's apologists on the American far left to call these captured rifles "
spurious" evidence or "
groundless assertions and half-truths." The fact that 12% of the rifles purchased by Iran have been captured in Iraq sure sounds like evidence as strong as "
videotape of the Ayatollah Khamenei himself attaching tailfins to one of these things and putting it in a box labeled "Baghdad -- ASAP."
No doubt Huffington Post contributer
Cenk Uygur will soon be breathlessly telling us that since he's never heard of the country of Iran,
this can't be true.
No, there is no way that the apologist left can blame this on the "Bush regime." Iran's government officially purchased these long-range rifles, and within 45 days of their delivery, one of these rifles was used to kill an American soldier in Iraq.
As Ed Morrissey
stated this morning:
Pardon the pun, but this is literally the smoking gun. We can trace these weapons from its manufacturer directly to the Iranian government. The quantity in which they have been found in insurgent bases precludes any explanation that a few just got mislaid; they obviously have been transferred from an Iranian state organization to the terrorists in Iraq. It's the clearest evidence of Iranian involvement in attacks on Americans. The involvement of the mullahcracy is undeniable, and it is a direct retort to those who keep claiming that Iran has no stake in Iraqi instability.
The question of course, is what we can and should do in response to not only Iran's shipping these rifles into Iraq, but the heavier weapons, such as Iranian-manufactured 81mm mortar ammunition and Iranian-manufactured Explosively-formed projectiles (EFPs) that have been used by insurgents to kill more than 170 coalition soldiers.
Glenn Reynolds of Instapundit offers
suggestions:
We should be responding quietly, killing radical mullahs and iranian atomic scientists, supporting the simmering insurgencies within Iran, putting the mullahs' expat business interests out of business, etc. Basically, stepping on the Iranians' toes hard enough to make them reconsider their not-so-covert war against us in Iraq.
Hugh Hewitt, upon reading Reynolds' post,
comments:
If we know that Iran is killing American soldiers, if we don't punish that action is some way, the killing will not only continue, it will increase.
Hewitt's comment is as dead-on accurate as one of the .50 BMG bullets Iran is putting in the hands of anti-Iraqi forces. Unless the Iranian government is made to feel the pain of supplying arms, money, training, and personnel to fight America soldiers and the Iraqi government, then they will continue with their attacks.
Reynolds is also correct in his suggested approach of what I'd consider a "soft war" campaign of destabilizing the mullahcracy in Iran.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
12:39 PM
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1
The idea that Iran was buying this weapon for police is a complete farce. This IS a smoking gun. With the NorKs finally moving towards closing down their nuke program, Iran needs to realize they are all alone now.
Posted by: BohicaTwentyTwo at February 13, 2007 01:04 PM (oC8nQ)
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Agreed. I mean, we know Bush has signed the order that Iranians in Iraq are fair game, but this is about as much of a casus belli as it gets.
While the "soft war" idea has merit, a large part of the problem we have with taking real action is the insistence of the left that Iran is this nice happy country that just happens to be next door to Iraq. This quite literally is the smoking gun that we need to be bringing before the UN, the court of public opinion, and most importantly the Arab states.
Our military and political response to this needs to be very loud, very public, and very clear. The soft war idea is good and should be done, it absolutely needs to be accompanied by an unmistakable deadline backed up with those carrier groups and air assets we have in the region, and the will to use them until Iran abandons any pretense of nuclear or even any conventional warfare plans in the Middle East.
Posted by: Jared at February 13, 2007 02:08 PM (1Hmzb)
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I don't think there's much argument on the left that Iran is doing some stuff to support Shia rebels in Iraq. But surely they don't support the Sunnis? And most serious left commentators are not against some 'black ops' in Iran. But black ops don't require massive propaganda pushes; they are done TR style, quietly with a big stick.
The current press seems more intended to get involved in a wider conflict, and blame any problems in Iraq on somebody else (like Iran), rather than our own incompetent to non-existent nationbuilding strategies.
Posted by: mac at February 13, 2007 02:14 PM (ycwNp)
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"But surely they don't support the Sunnis?"
One of the Iranian weapons recently 'found' in Iraq is the Misgah-1, a Iranian knockoff of a Chinese shoulder launched SAM. The ones recently bragging about shooting down US helicopters? Al Qaeda in Iraq. The real question is, how will the Iraqi Shiites react when they find out that Iran has been supplying the same people who blow up their marketplaces.
Posted by: BohicaTwentyTwo at February 13, 2007 02:44 PM (oC8nQ)
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While I too think retaliation is certainly called for, I wrote that Iran certainly wouldn't have assumed that we wouldn't get our hands on these rifles, nor that we wouldn't be able to trace their ownership. I figure Iran is counting on Bush doing nothing... and, unfortunately, I figure they're going to be proven right.
Posted by: steve sturm at February 13, 2007 03:10 PM (XBWtm)
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I'm sure the Shia already know if Iran had been supplying the Sunni.
Posted by: jpe at February 13, 2007 03:11 PM (IJOPR)
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Actually, on further thought, it's pretty good news, and Iran did us an inadvertent favor. Iran bought 800 rifles, and the US has already captured more than 10% in a few months. It's a lot like a medical experiment--put a (toxic) radioactive tracer in the body and see how fast it gets excreted.
If we assume the casualty rate in the resistance as a whole matches, then the US is decimating the resistance on average 3 times a year.
That's pretty good results. Now, I don't know how good that metric is, but it's perhaps the most convincing one of winning: the enemy's attrition rate is unsustainably high.
Of course, we have a very high attrition rate as well: soldiers can quit the army after 3 years, and the financial cost is mindboggling... I don't know what kind of cost is reasonable in a non-existential war like Iraq, but at some point you need to cut losses. I'd say: take a vote in Iraq, if a 2/3 majority want us to leave, then do so, and in very short order.
I am against this "strategically curious" war, and have been from the start. I thought Afghanistan was the right place to focus because they were, after all, the enemy that actually attacked us.
Posted by: mac at February 13, 2007 06:51 PM (RSa67)
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Is there any evidence at all that the Iranians are supplying arms to the Sunnis in Iraq? You know, the bad guys who are actively working to kill our guys, as opposed to Shia who are supposed be our friends? It really wouldn't make much sense that that is happening, since the Sunnis in Anbar and north of Baghdad are locked in a death struggle with Iraqi Shiites, which enjoy the open support of Tehran. Far more likely that the Sunnis are getting subsidized by the Saudis. One more point, if the US launches attacks on Iran, what do you think the probability would be that the Shiites in Iraq would turn on us? Pretty high, seems to me. And in that case, we'd be fighting both Sunnis & Shia in Iraq, and all of the Shia in Iran.
Posted by: Pinson at February 13, 2007 08:43 PM (cFfro)
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Excellent research, Bob. I added an excerpt and link at Iranian weapons killing Americans in Iraq -- Update 4.
Posted by: Bill Faith at February 13, 2007 08:52 PM (n7SaI)
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I thought Afghanistan was the right place to focus
Afghanistan doesn't sit smack in the geographic center of terrorist central though. Focusing on Afghanistan would be like Nimitz focusing on the Aleutians while the Japanese ran rough shod all over the prime real estate.
Posted by: Purple Avenger at February 13, 2007 09:49 PM (HDpFt)
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Jeez, where's all the trolls on this thread? Do I have to do everything for you?
You freaking kill crazed wingnut Bushbots. This is clearly just another fake intel setup designed to justify another illegal war for oil! The whole thing is fake, fake, fake! Iran has no nuclear weapons aspirations at all. Israel is the real problem in the middle east! The Iranians are just a bunch of kite flying multicultural pacifists who mean us no harm.
Posted by: Purple Avenger at February 14, 2007 06:26 AM (HDpFt)
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Haliburton!!!! Bush lied!!! No WMD!!!
Come on guys, pick up the pace here...
Posted by: Purple Avenger at February 14, 2007 06:29 AM (HDpFt)
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A couple hundred rifles find their way into Iraq from Iran. Yep, sure sounds like a casus belli to me... pffft. You guys are just phoning it in now, aren't you?
Posted by: Arbotreeist at February 14, 2007 09:06 AM (N8M1W)
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There, you feel better Purple? You now have your Iranian apologist post to go nuts on.
OT: What's up with that bus getting blown up in Iran? Coverage is minimal.
Posted by: BohicaTwentyTwo at February 14, 2007 09:40 AM (oC8nQ)
Posted by: helen at June 08, 2009 04:20 AM (h/rBV)
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Edwards' Bigoted Blogger Resigns
Just when it mattered least, Amanda Marcotte resigned from the John Edwards campaign:
I was hired by the Edwards campaign for the skills and talents I bring to the table, and my willingness to work hard for what’s right. Unfortunately, Bill Donohue and his calvacade [sic] of right wing shills don’t respect that a mere woman like me could be hired for my skills, and pretended that John Edwards had to be held accountable for some of my personal, non-mainstream views on religious influence on politics (I’m anti-theocracy, for those who were keeping track). Bill Donohue—anti-Semite, right wing lackey whose entire job is to create non-controversies in order to derail liberal politics—has been running a scorched earth campaign to get me fired for my personal beliefs and my writings on this blog.
In fact, he’s made no bones about the fact that his intent is to “silence” me, as if he—a perfect stranger—should have a right to curtail my freedom of speech. Why? Because I’m a woman? Because I’m pro-choice? Because I’m not religious? All of the above, it seems.
As ever, Marcotte just doesn't get it.
Bill Donohue may have been the catalyst bringing her anti-Christian, anti-Catholic bigotry to a national audience, but Amanda Marcotte was targeted because she was and is an unrepentant bigot, and for no other reason. Period.
Marcotte attempts to shift the blame to Bill Donohue, a bigot in his own right (his views on Judaism turn the stomach), but the reality is that Marcotte and Donohue are flip sides of the same vile coin.
Despite her protests, Marcotte's free speech was never curtailed. It was in fact her exercise of her free speech--her own bigoted words spread far and deep across her person blog over an extended period of time--that was responsible for the controversy surrounding her hiring. What Marcotte did not understand then, and either does not understand, or refuses to acknowledge now, is that free speech is not freedom from responsibility for those opinions you chose to exercise. Marcotte apparently thinks that "free speech" means she has the "right" to denigrate and offend others without those others having the ability to exercise those same free speech rights in protest. She wants freedom to be a critic without having that same critical eye cast in her direction. It is a double standard that she seeks, and nothing less.
Marcotte's resignation post also admits what many of us thought about her earlier apology. It was insincere; a blatant and calculated lie meant to excise her from criticism. She stated in her
apology that:
My writings on my personal blog Pandagon on the issue of religion are generally satirical in nature and always intended strictly as a criticism of public policies and politics. My intention is never to offend anyone for his or her personal beliefs, and I am sorry if anyone was personally offended by writings meant only as criticisms of public politics. Freedom of religion and freedom of expression are central rights, and the sum of my personal writings is a testament to this fact.
Her statement
now?
The main good news is that I don’t have a conflict of interest issue anymore that was preventing me from defending myself against these baseless accusations. So it’s on.
Marcotte now admits that she only issued her apology on the Edwards blog in a cynical attempt to keep her job. She knew her comments on her personal blog were never "satirical in nature and always intended strictly as a criticism of public policies and politics." Now that she is free of the Edwards campaign, she fully intends to revert back to form. "It's on."
The problem for Amanda Marcotte isn't that the criticisms of her writings were baseless. The problem for Amanda Marcotte is that the criticisms exposed precisely who she is.
It remains now to be seen if Marcotte joins the Ku Klux Klan. Not for the bigotry, you understand.
She just seems to love the idea of a burning cross.
Update: More reaction from
Ace,
Bryan,
Glenn,
Joe,
Jeff, and
Michelle.
A good cross-section of blog reactions at
Memeorandum.com.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
09:07 AM
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It would almost be funny if it wasn't a preview of how 2007 will be the year the left is going to savage itself over the nutroots and end up all but dead politically. Nobody's going to want to touch the nutroots after this week, and the Dems' triangulation on which group it needs more (largely Catholic religious Dems or the Screaming Nutroot Faithful) will only serve to alienate both groups.
Religious Democrats, particularly in New England, may start looking hard at Mitt Romney. The nutroots however will suddenly find that nobody cares about them anymore. See if any major Dem candidates show up at Yearly Kos in 2007. My guess is after this week they won't even be able to book Al Sharpton.
Howard Dean, Ned Lamont, and now John Edwards are all but politically finished due to the nutroots albatross hanging on their necks. And as the nutroots get even more shrill and start demanding more attention, the Dems will be forced to tune out their own base for "electability".
It's funny how poli sci texts will look back on the internet a few years from now and talk about how it destroyed the Democrat Party.
Posted by: Jared at February 13, 2007 09:40 AM (1Hmzb)
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Is she really a bigot? I admit I haven't been following the matter, so this is a genuine question. I'm aware of some scathing anti-religious remarks she made, and presumably since she feels that way she is therefore in principle against people that promote religion. To me that seems principled, not bigoted, but like I said I don't know the whole picture.
I'm not sure I've ever read her blog, but from her reputation I'm sure she's a liberal Democrat or Green or what have you. KKK members are basically all conservative, Republican protestants right? I doubt very much she or the KKK would have any interest in each other. Anyway the KKK is racially focused, and if she is a racist I'm sure she keeps it to herself, or she'd be ostracized by the PC element in her group.
Posted by: Lex Steele at February 13, 2007 12:14 PM (irNSl)
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"KKK members are basically all conservative, Republican protestants right?"
Well, except for Senator Robert Byrd (D-WV).
Posted by: BohicaTwentyTwo at February 13, 2007 12:38 PM (oC8nQ)
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Bohica -- yes he was decades ago, and he now says it will forever be a stain on his character. I'm not knocking the Republican party; there are odious groups largely composed of Democrats too. I don't believe what I said about the KKK is controversial. Do you have a disagreement you'd like to discuss, or are you just sniping?
Posted by: Lex Steele at February 13, 2007 01:06 PM (irNSl)
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Lex, you are trying to associate the Ultra Right/Far Right/Crazy Right with the Republican Party and that is just not true. That's the difference between the Democrats and the Republicans. The GoP disassociates itself from the radicals on the right, while the Democrats EMBRACES the radical left, which is EXACTLY what Edwards was doing by hiring whatshername.
Posted by: BohicaTwentyTwo at February 13, 2007 01:40 PM (oC8nQ)
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Bohica -- no, you are reading way too much into what I said. Do you agree that the Pendagon (sp?) woman probably votes Democrat? Do you believe that most KKK members vote Republican? Do you agree that this makes it unlikely that Pedagon Woman would join the KKK? That's all I'm saying. If you disagree, that's fine, but don't pretend I'm saying something that I'm not.
Posted by: Lex Steele at February 13, 2007 02:47 PM (irNSl)
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Lex,
Based upon her copious body of work, I think it is fair to state that Marcotte is indeed a bigot. If you have doubts on the matter, I suppose you can look up some of her statements and start playing the substitution game, plugging in different groups in as the objects of derision of Marcotte's posts, and then see if the same language applied to different groups would rise to your standard of what constitutes bigotry.
I think I'd also disagree with your characterization of Klan members as being "all conservative, Republican protestants." Don't get me wrong, in that I'm certain there are conservative Republican Klansmen, but I doubt they are the majority. Historically, the Klan has been the refuge of conservative Democrats, mostly in the south, but also in the northeast, where Republicans are generally scarce in any capacity. I don't have any empirical data to back this assertion (it may exist, but I'm too lazy to look), but anecedotal evidence suggests that conservative "yellow dog" Dems in the south and northeast are a more likely recruiting ground for the Klan than any other demographic.
Perhaps it is ironic, but Marcotte's obvious bigotry against Catholics accurately captures the mentality that enabled the Klan to take off in the northeast, where their major malfunction was a specific hatred of immigrants in general and Catholic immigrants in particular.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at February 13, 2007 03:09 PM (g5Nba)
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Well, dislike of Catholics is bigotry all right. I'm convinced.
I didn't say ALL Klansmen are conservative Republicans, I said basically all. Sure, in the seventies the great majority of white Southerners were Dems, so during that period most Klansmen would be Dems. All those guys call themselves Republicans now. I'd bet more than 95% of 2004 Klan votes were Bush over Kerry. Democrat racism IMO is mostly in the form of entitlements, the soft bigotry of low expectations, whereas the violent kind of racism is more closely associated with the Republicans (or people that now vote Republican). That's just the way it is.
Posted by: Lex Steele at February 13, 2007 03:56 PM (irNSl)
9
Bigotry: [The] stubborn and complete intolerance of any creed, belief, or opinion that differs from one's own.
That seems to rather accurately define Amanda Marcotte's body of work regarding "godbags," Lex. You are, of course, to disagree with that assessment, but I feel that the majority of people would disagree with your assessment that she may be "principled" once they have read some of her more colorful work. "Principled" in this case being defined as "based on or manifesting objectively defined standards of rightness or morality." Somehow, a foul-mouthed person contemplating the abortion of Jesus doesn't quite strike me as being a view any rational person can accept as being particularly righteous or moral, especially considering it was apparently one of many of her comments uttered with the express goal of issuing forth the contempt and dare I say it, bigotry she so obviously holds near and dear to her heart against Christians.
As for your "all/basically all" semantics game, you're free to hold that opinion. I can tell you that history, past and present, indicates that you are more than likley incorrect on your assumptions. While it is hardly indicative of a representive cross section, recent Louisiana voting patterns show something quite different that what you theorize:
A new study by two political scientists suggests that racial bias was likely a key factor in the defeat of Indian American Bobby Jindal in the 2003 Louisiana governor’s race.
Unexpected support from the so-called "David Duke vote" was decisive in Democratic Gov. Kathleen Blanco’s victory, detailed statistical analysis by two government professors at Hamilton College in Clinton, N.Y., suggests.
White voters who had backed former Ku Klux Klan leader David Duke in 1991, and who normally vote Republican, turned away from Jindal in the 2003 race, according to the analysis by Richard Skinner and Philip A. Klinkner. "Duke voters," particularly in norah [sic] Louisiana, were enough to provide the new governor her margin, Skinner and Klinkner suggest.
They conclude:
Most notably, the authors demonstrate that where Duke did well in 1991, so did Blanco in 2003 — far better, in fact, than Landrieu in 2002.
The openly racist ex-Klansman Duke gained a majority of the vote in 26 Louisiana parishes; Blanco averaged 10 percentage points better than Landrieu in these parishes. And in nine parishes where Duke got over 55 percent of the vote, Blanco averaged 17 percentage points better than the U.S. Senator.
Most conclusive, according to Parent, is the two political scientists' examination of results from a far smaller unit than the parish — the precinct. And here again, in the north Louisiana precincts examined by the authors, where Duke had gotten more than 60 percent of the vote in 1991, Blanco averaged 13 percentage points better than Landrieu.
"Race still matters," said Klinkner. "And it's race, it's not just Democrats vs. Republicans."
That said, I'd hardly be surprised if you find a way to re-manufacturer the Republicans=Klansman meme you seem to be attached to, evidence to the contrary be damned.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at February 13, 2007 04:34 PM (g5Nba)
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About the bigotry thing, I'm confused. I said I'm convinced. You seem to want to pick a fight?
As for your "all/basically all semantics game": it's not a semantic game, you misquoted me. I know that blacks vote predominantly Democratic, and most everything I've seen indicates that white protestants that hate blacks vote Republican. I didn't say "Republicans=Klansman". You're being a jerk to imply that I did, and it reflects poorly on you that you act reflexively when you perceive that your party is being attacked, especially when it isn't. Thank you for your time.
Posted by: Lex Steele at February 13, 2007 05:41 PM (irNSl)
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Is she really a bigot?
Just nuts.
Posted by: Purple Avenger at February 13, 2007 09:51 PM (HDpFt)
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This woman must be delusional. She thinks she can write material that is HIGHLY insensitive & hurtful to a substantial portion of the population & there would be no repercussions???!!!! She became too comfortable & confident with her "amen corner"..........a VERY narrow slice of society. So, YES!!!, there is freedom of speech but there is also freedom of action from those offended by bigotry. She had to learn the hard way. She was wrong & got spanked & I couldn't be happier. -----I'm voting for Edwards +& have never voted Republican in my life.
Posted by: aquinasb at February 13, 2007 10:21 PM (CTBfz)
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February 12, 2007
Name That Weapon
Michael Yon has a question for his readers: What the heck is this?
As the Drudge link seems to have fried Yon's server momentarily, here's the low-resolution version he emailed me this morning as he was trying to ID it.
Photo property of Michael Yon. Swiped pending permission.
Funky, isn't it?
It looks fearsome, but don't plan on buying one: this
homemade weapon was pulled from a captured ammunition cache in Iraq.
What is it? Here is what I told Mike this morning when he asked for my opinion:
I want to start by saying that without being able to get other angles and actually take the thing apart, what follows is purely unadulterated speculation, and perhaps laughably wrong.
That out of the way, I think my original, joking assessment calling this a potato gun might not be too far off.
This appears to have a crudely manufactuered wood front grip and stock, and the size of the holes in both to me suggest that they might have used nuts, bolts and washers to put this thing together... we're not talking a weapon designed by experts, or a weapon designed to handle much in the way of pressure. The welded together scope mount is probably not "true," and if you tried to adjust it, it would probably pull you off target. Based on what I can see, I'd suggest the scope is mostly for show, not performance.
The plunger-type trigger to me suggests a friction ignitor, once again suggesting a potato gun, as does the larger of the two tubes, which suggests a combusion chamber leading to the smaller front tube, which is the barrel.
With nothing else to go on, I really think it is a tater gun, though perhaps one with serious intentions.
If you've got a tube of sufficient strength to handle a decent amont of propellant without detonating, I'd guess it could be used as a crude launcher, perhaps being used to toss molotov cocktails a little further or with a little more velocity or accuracy. If it wasn't found in a cache, I'd think it was a complete joke.
Feel free to drop your guesses of what it might be used for in the comments.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
04:22 PM
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The scope is very odd since it don't appear that it would have a lot of range.
A weapon of desperation?
Perhaps some of the billions going to terrorist has been stopped.
Blessings
Posted by: patty at February 12, 2007 05:35 PM (1165q)
2
As a former DoD employee and a Gunner's Mate, I can say that is nothing more than PVC pipe with a wood stock attached. I'd be amazed if it shot anything other than tennis balls or potatos.
Posted by: grego at February 12, 2007 06:01 PM (S4Q5o)
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Wouldn't it be funny if some militia paid a million bucks for a crate of those, assuming they were getting state-of-the-art MANPADs?
Posted by: See-Dubya at February 12, 2007 06:06 PM (tLQE2)
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See Dubya,
Shhhh.
We're shipping another ship-load next week.
Keep your silence and we'll cut you in for some of the profit.
Posted by: Stealthy Persimmon at February 12, 2007 06:19 PM (41Dd+)
Posted by: Rich at February 12, 2007 06:24 PM (EblDJ)
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looks like an rpg lancher the scope probable dose not have glass in it and is just a crued site tube
Posted by: Rich at February 12, 2007 06:26 PM (EblDJ)
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how about a potato gun but you wrap hand granade in a towel and shoot it
Posted by: Rich at February 12, 2007 06:30 PM (EblDJ)
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Could it just be a surrogate weapon for training? Often in pictures of Palestinian "police" training, they are using wooden guns, I suppose to simulate moving with a weapon. (I suppose all the real AK-47s are loaned out to 8-year-olds.)
Posted by: Eric J at February 12, 2007 06:59 PM (5PRM2)
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Is it a training gun for a anti tank rocket? Or a suicide EFP Gun?
Posted by: kubob at February 12, 2007 09:11 PM (Np8df)
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This is a commonly-used sex toy in the Middle East, but it would not be appropriate to explain how it is used on a family blog. Use your imagination. The camo gives it a perky appearance.
Posted by: bird dog at February 12, 2007 09:14 PM (86QII)
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Question: I have seen photos in Afghanistan of troops (local) using pink AK-47s....any reason for that?
Posted by: Aaron at February 12, 2007 09:17 PM (U3yk5)
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Think this is a notional missile launcher designed to fire notional missiles into notional Palestinian ambulances?
Posted by: ray robison at February 12, 2007 10:48 PM (7bFG1)
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Odd that. I'd bet it's an aerosol powered grenade launcher(it's a taterade launcher!!!). Seriously, shooting potato's seems silly BUT, i'd bet there are some unexploded grenades floating around. It's plausible I suppose.
Posted by: markm at February 13, 2007 06:40 AM (hVOTO)
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Damn Iraqi rednecks and their potato guns.
Posted by: BohicaTwentyTwo at February 13, 2007 08:59 AM (oC8nQ)
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My first thought is that it's an M-79 40mm grenade launcher - with a custom stock (homemade?).
Not sure why it would have a scope, though. The M-79, and the M203 (it's successor) are indirect fire weapons.
Picture of M-79 here - http://world.guns.ru/grenade/m79-2.jpg
Posted by: justsomeguy at February 13, 2007 09:32 AM (1dOG4)
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Back in the late 70's and early 80's when I was in northern Pakistan / southern Afghanistan on vacation I saw some homemade stuff a lot like this. It's probably a lash up RPG launcher and most likely functions exactly as well as the military version, they're dead simple. Early on the Muj fought with ancient Enfield rifles and homemade stuff till they could get their hands on the stuff they took from dead Soviets and Afghan military.
Posted by: Buzzy at February 13, 2007 09:50 AM (CXz7T)
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I see this story has hit the MSM. It's on the front of FOX News at the moment.
Posted by: markm at February 16, 2007 12:08 PM (hVOTO)
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None So Blind
"There are none so blind as those who will not see."
--Various
Some of the deep thoughts of HuffPuffer Cenk Uygur, regarding the
Iran weapons presentation released over the weekend:
Then the officials made the highly dubious claim that 170 US troops have been killed by these so-called Iranian weapons. Really? They CSI'ed the scene of all the troop deaths and found forensic evidence linking these weapons to exactly 170 deaths. I call bulls**t [edited].
During the demonstration they talked at length about these cylindrical pipes that shoot molten hot balls of copper through the armor of US vehicles. In all of the gruesome stories of our men and women dying in Iraq, I have never heard of this weapon before or any deaths being attributed to it.
Defensetech.org wrote about them being used by insurgents in Iraq on
Aug 3, 2005. Other news organizations have written dozens of articles about them as well.
Perhaps Uygur has never heard of these weapons, but they're
hardly new:
Explosively formed projectiles (EFP) have been used to defeat armored vehicles for more than 30 years.
What does the UK Telegraph have to say about EFPs?
Quite a bit in this June 25, 2006 article alone:
The first picture of an Iraqi insurgent mine, believed to have been responsible for the deaths of 17 British soldiers, has been obtained by The Sunday Telegraph.
The device, which has been used by insurgents throughout Iraq since May last year, fires an armour-piercing "explosively formed projectile" or EFP, also known as a shaped charge, directly into an armoured vehicle, inflicting death or terrible injuries on troops inside.
The weapon can penetrate the armour of British and American tanks and armoured personnel carriers and completely destroy armoured Land Rovers, which are used by the majority of British troops on operations in Iraq.
The device, described as an "off-route mine", was seized by British troops in Iraq earlier this year and brought back to Britain where it underwent detailed examination by scientists at Fort Halstead, the Government's forensic explosive laboratory in Kent.
The Ministry of Defence has attempted to play down the effectiveness of the weapons, suggesting that they are "crude" or "improvised" explosive devices which have killed British troops more out of luck than judgement.
However, this newspaper understands that Government scientists have established that the mines are precision-made weapons which have been turned on a lathe by craftsmen trained in the manufacture of munitions.
But where could the insurgency be getting such weapons?
British military sources believe the devices have been developed in Iran and smuggled across the border into Iraq where they are supplied to Iranian-backed anti-coalition insurgents.
The weapon first emerged on the Iraqi battlefield in May last year and since then it has been used more than 20 times to kill 17 British servicemen. The last two soldiers to be killed by the device were Lieut Tom Mildinhall, 27, and L/Cpl Paul Farrelly, 28, both members of the 1st Queen's Dragoon Guards, who were killed on May 28 in a district north-west of Basra.
The devices, which are impossible to detect, can be easily camouflaged and triggered using infra-red technology, remote control or by a command wire.
Earlier this year, The Sunday Telegraph revealed how a multi-charged roadside bomb, developed by Hizbollah in Lebanon, was also being used against British and American soldiers by Iraqi insurgents.
Essentially, Cenk Uygur's argument appears to be that since he hasn't heard of such things, that they don't exist. I imagine that by that lofty standard, much of the world doesn't exist for him.
But he isn't done yet:
Guess who's supposed be bringing in the EFPs? Why Iran, of course. Really? Can these brilliant, anonymous defense analysts tell us who fire these EFPs and for what purpose?
They gave a lot of generic blame to the Mahdi Army because that is who we are going to attack next in Iraq. But are they saying the Mahdi Army is now engaging in combat against US troops? Because that would be news to everybody. Right now, it is believed that they are fighting - and often times brutally killing - Sunnis. But I haven't read anything about the Mahdi Army attacking coalition forces. Can this explosive new charge be proven in anyway? Have there been any of their fighters captured in the battlefield?
So many charges, so little evidence.
That the Madhi Army has engaged U.S troops is only new to you, Cenk. The rest of the educated world calls it "history."
The eight-day
Battle of Najaf in August of 2004 featured 2,000 U.S Marines and 1,800 Iraqi Army soldiers against roughly 2,000 members of Muqtada al Sadr's Madhi Army. 159 militiamen and 261 were captured in this one battle alone.
Perhaps Cenk might be able to understand this information in a format more he might find
more approachable. I'm sorry, but they don't have it yet on Playstation.
Najaf, was, of course, just one of many battles coalition forces fought against the Madhi Army
between 2004 and October of 2006, and smaller scale, skirmish-level fights against the Shia milita have never ceased.
It's funny how much of the world you can miss when you are determined not to see it.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
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The "EFP" was used in WWII (see panzerfaust and bazooka).
The oilfield has been using these "shaped charges" for oilwell perforating since the early sixties.
Posted by: Bobn at February 12, 2007 04:54 PM (2di10)
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As a general statement, liberals have no clue about weaponry.
Posted by: Purple Avenger at February 12, 2007 04:58 PM (HDpFt)
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I don't have your background, or that of some of your commenters, but I see things like the one pictured above and I keep remembering the crude, but effective nasties that British intelligence developed and shipped all over Europe in WWII...kept simple and crude so Papa Francois or Daddy Lech could turn out copies in whatever crude machine shops the various resistance movements shooting at Germans could come up with. Stands to reason our Iranian friends would work in a similar manner in Iraq.
Posted by: El Jefe Maximo at February 12, 2007 05:33 PM (twzF4)
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Interestingly enough, "Future Weapons" had a very similar-looking device a couple of weeks ago. A short plastic tube with a conical copper plate; stuff the tube with plastic explosives and detonate it. Their demo had a 1" steel plate 20' from the device and it punched a fist-sized hole in the plate.
Posted by: Robert Crawford at February 12, 2007 08:55 PM (bH9q3)
5
You know what's curious is that Sunnis have been conducting most of the attacks on our troops, yet the Iranians are Shia. The Saudis have warned that they will arm the Sunnis if we leave them out to dry.
Posted by: Lex Steele at February 12, 2007 10:53 PM (irNSl)
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Dollard Updates
From time to time I've written about Pat Dollard, the former Hollywood agent turned outspoken Iraqi War documentary filmmaker and IED magnet. He has a new site design up, and it is quite improved over his old site. Check it out.
While you're there, make sure you drink in the
Youtube video he found, where a Iraqi cleric thanks America for invading Iraq and daring to try to fix an Arab culture that has been broken for 1,400 years (his words). He compares the existing Arab culture to slavery repeatedly, and says that our attempt to give Iraq a democracy is the best thing that has ever happened in the region.
Don't look for CNN, ABC, CBS, or AP to share this video.
Pat was recently on Greg Gutfeld's new show on Fox News called
Red-Eye. An excerpt of the interview was on
Hot Air over the weekend, talking about media coverage of the war and the "bravery" of George Clooney.
The full 14 minute, 4 second segment was on
Google Video, but doesn't presently appear to be working. Hopefully it will be up and running later today.
Pat's war documentary
Young Americans will hopefully soon be released as a series soon, once he landsa distributor. He tells me hes just watched the two-hour pilot episode and knows what edits he would like to make, and should hopefully have it complete soon.
If you want a taste, he has five video clips posted
here.
CONTENT WARNING: The Marines in this video drop F-bombs like they were trying out to be John Edwards campaign bloggers, and his choice of music is hardcore punk liberally sprinkled with the same kind of language. As you might also expect, some combat footage is also not for the sqeamish. You might want to save this until you get home, and the kids are off to bed. If you want one words to describe the footage Dollard collected in Iraq, "raw" describes it best.
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Thanks for this, I was inspried when I was done to read all over the site and sent a donation when I was done. What a brave bunch of men!
Posted by: Michael at February 12, 2007 04:57 PM (i8nuF)
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Missing in Action
According to a source in Baghdad, the dozens of checkpoints manned by Madhi Army militamen in the Shia areas are now missing in western Baghdad as of Monday, and the militamen themselves are absent from public view. The western media should be able to confirm this fairly soon.
In the meantime, the U.S. has locked down the
Rusafa district in preparation of sweeps in eastern Baghdad. These operations have been confirmed as part of the much-discussed surge:
American commanders described the operation Sunday in the Rusafa district as an early taste of large-scale sweeps expected in eastern Baghdad to take back some measure of control from militias. Troops from the 3rd Stryker Brigade Combat Team were fired on by insurgents with automatic rifles, and they detained 10 Iraqis while searching for a car-bomb manufacturing site in the area, a violent sectarian fault line between a Shiite enclave and the insurgent-ridden Sunni neighborhood of Fadhil.
The operations in eastern Baghdad are to be a centerpiece of the so-called surge of 21,000 troops that many here view as a last-ditch effort to save the country from all-out civil war.
Eastern Baghdad "is a focal point for us right now," said Brigadier General John Campbell, deputy commander of coalition troops in Baghdad. American- led forces say they have conducted 3,400 patrols and detained 140 suspects in the past week.
Not surprisingly, Jon Kerry has
attacked the surge, even though it has already commenced and American forces are already in combat.
Shocking, I know.
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Trackbacked by The Thunder Run - Web Reconnaissance for 02/12/2007
A short recon of what’s out there that might draw your attention.
Posted by: David M at February 12, 2007 11:27 AM (kNjJk)
2
Kerry is the Energizer Bunny of treason.
Posted by: Purple Avenger at February 12, 2007 11:41 AM (HDpFt)
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February 09, 2007
Dear John
As a fellow North Carolinian (well, you're close enough), I'll be perfectly up front about this: you never had a chance at getting my vote. I still remember you channeling a five-year-old cerebral palsy patient as a personal injury attorney using junk science, long before North Carolina newspapers nicknamed you "Senator Gone" for missing 43-percent of Senate votes after suspending your first Presidential run.
And yes, I still remember how you took advantage of a tax loophole to avoid paying more than a half million dollars in Medicare taxes by forming a subchapter S corporation. Did you know there are
books out there about that now? Impressive legal work, to be sure... but I'm not sure those folks in that other America--those without a 28,200 square feet mansion and a
million-dollar home on a private Island--feel about that. That $591,000 you cleverly steered away from Medicare and back into your own pocket, seems, well,
deceptive for someone claiming to run as a populist.
That said, there are quite few folks living in your adopted home state that voted for you in your Senatorial bid in 1998, and voted for you again when you teamed up to run for President with John Kerry in 2004. Quite a few of those folks--I'd guestimate roughly 400-500 or so--go to my church in Cary.
Something tells me they might not be so enthusiastic about your candidacy this time around.
Fair of foul, people--and particularly those people under the intense spotlight of a foundering Presidential campaign--are judged by the company they keep. Now, it has been well known for quite a while that Elizabeth Edwards is well known in the left wing blogosphere, but let's face facts: most Americans simply don't read blogs. Still the potential for danger was
always there:
There are two ways to view Mrs. Edwards' posting on blogs. Some will wonder how wise it is for Edwards to enter this swamp. Every blogger has a sane/insane ratio for political posts ... we come to accept it from our peers. But when an aspiring First Lady says something pointed, it's not just typical Internet chatter, it's potentially big news. Elizabeth Edwards is extremely smart and a terrific writer ... but it's an incredible high-wire act for someone so prominent to attempt.
To date, your lovely wife has avoided "stepping in it" as the saying goes, but you haven't done too well with your newest forays into the blogosphere, managing to hire for yourself a couple of bloggers whose "sane/insane ratio" has now become national news.
Part of me admires you for sticking to your guns and keeping Amanda Marcotte and Melissia McEwan on staff despite their obvious and long-standing hatred of Christians--Marcotte alone has referred to Christians derisively
at least 114 times, as "godbags"--but I don't think too many of my fellow North Carolina Christians are going to recognize your political courage, in which you bravely responded to radical left-wing astrology site's
IMPORTANT ACTION ALERTS by doing exactly as they wanted.
Most of these folks could care less about Marcotte's thoughts about what would have happened if
the Virgin Mary had aborted Jesus as an independent blogger, but they
are concerned, because you don't seem to much care about the image that gives your campaign. Some might just get the sneaking suspicion that you might feel the same way.
Now, I know you're simply pandering to the left wing base to give yourself some fleeting hope of being able to parley your campaign into the Number Two slot behind Hillary! or Barack Obama, but that's because I'm a political blogger myself. But I'm not everybody, and you never had a chance at my vote.
That said, the family usually sitting several rows ahead of me Sunday mornings has a cracked and peeling Kerry/Edwards sticker on their minivan, which should put you in contention for their vote, but what do you think they felt when they opened the print edition of the Charlotte
Observer, the Raleigh
News & Observer, or my hometown Greenville
Daily Reflector this morning, to find stories like
this? It doesn't bode well, John.
In Greenville, where someone with similar degrees of tolerance for "godbags" and the "Christofascist base" decided to
burn two churches and
vandalize a third only weeks ago, I don't think you'll win any new fans, either.
I wish you the best of luck with your choices and your campaign.
Lord knows, you're going to need it.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
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It's his choice, I for one, am interested in how this will pan out.
Posted by: Retired Navy at February 09, 2007 01:33 PM (Mv/2X)
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CY, time to face a few facts. Like it or not, a Dem is going to be president in 2009, almost certainly. Dems already have Congress, that means two years of investigations and fallout. So they're likely to consolidate their hold.
So everything you do to knock down Edwards - over blogger hires, of all issues - is working for President Hillary.
Posted by: Jake Ketcher at February 09, 2007 02:32 PM (SQ9Fj)
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is working for President Hillary.
I'd take Hillary over Edwards in a heartbeat.
Posted by: Purple Avenger at February 09, 2007 02:41 PM (HDpFt)
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As they say, be careful what you wish for. You're likely to get it.
Posted by: Jake Ketcher at February 09, 2007 04:37 PM (SQ9Fj)
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CY, I too believe we will have a Dem administration in 08. that admin will then be tested by Al Qaeda. If found wanting, which I expect, it may well be the last Dem admin we have for a long time.
As per John's blogging mistresses, he made a calculated decision not to lose more of the radical feminist/left. I personally feel it was a mistake. They are not a large enough block, they don't vote as a block, and, they are already turning on him and his mistresses.
Posted by: CoRev at February 09, 2007 04:38 PM (Hr52v)
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So everything you do to knock down Edwards - over blogger hires, of all issues - is working for President Hillary.
I've got a news flash for you, since you haven't figured this out yet: barring a major meltdown, the nomination is Hillary's for the taking. The Democratic primaries boil down to little more than deciding her running mate among a stable of inexperienced lightweights.
If he's realistic, Edwards will realize he is doing nothing more than running for the Veep nomination against Obama. I think that is precisely why he's latched on to the netroots; he can't win the Presidential nomination, but he's doing his damnedest to placate the netroots, who he obviously sees as the one shot he's got to place. The risk he takes is that by embracing the netroots, that moderate Dems--quite possibly people like the Christian Democrats he's offending by his choice of bloggers--might just bury his already slim chances.
And yeah, I agree with your assessment that we'll have a Democratic President, come '09 barring the entry of a "clean" darkhorse. All the current Republican candidates suck, and I don't mind being quoted on that. None of them excite me.
Personally, I'd like to see Fred Thompson join the race. I don't know a thing about him other than that he is a conservative and an actor, but his acting abilities can presumably at least make him look presidential, something no other Republican candidate thus far seems able to beg, borrow, or steal.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at February 09, 2007 04:50 PM (g5Nba)
7
Fred Thompson - that's an interesting pick. He's on no-one's radar, and he'd get a lot of face recognition from people who don't even know he was a Senator.
Posted by: Jake Ketcher at February 09, 2007 04:53 PM (SQ9Fj)
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As they say, be careful what you wish for.
I want to see Hillary running in the general. She'll lose.
Posted by: Purple Avenger at February 09, 2007 06:20 PM (HDpFt)
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Thompson with Joe Lieberman or Zell Miller as his running mate. I'd WORK for that ticket.
Posted by: SDN at February 09, 2007 10:16 PM (DcLUr)
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Mark my words, it's going to be Gore in 2008. He's holding back to avoid these early kerfluffles and to engage his rivals in whatever terms the media (mainstream and blogosphere) cast them, but he'll jump in by late spring to make sure he has enough time to raise money.
Posted by: Aplomb at February 09, 2007 11:51 PM (Iva5Y)
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If Hillary were nominated, I'd vote for one former New York city mayor before I'd vote for her.
Posted by: Frederick at February 10, 2007 12:38 AM (m7NeX)
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If Hillary were nominated, I'd vote for one former New York city mayor before I'd vote for her.
Exactly.
Posted by: Purple Avenger at February 10, 2007 04:30 AM (HDpFt)
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I'm not so sure that the American people will elect a Democrat president. I think the past few years of having one party hold two branches of government is "not a good idea" - after all, isn't that what Democrats kept telling us.
BTW I had Thompson in my dark horse column.
Posted by: Maggie at February 10, 2007 09:22 AM (K8rep)
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"Junk science" seems to be the word du jour for the righties, applied even when it doesn't seem to fit. I read the linked article twice and didn't see anything about "junk science" in it.
Posted by: Doc Washboard at February 10, 2007 06:05 PM (T8N6a)
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Barack Obama announced today that he will be a candidate for President. He compared himself to Abraham Lincoln. Shucks, I knew Abraham Lincoln, Mr. Obama. Abraham Lincoln was a friend of mine. Mr. Obama? You are no Abraham Lincoln!
Posted by: Retired Spy at February 10, 2007 11:47 PM (Xw2ki)
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Jeez, kick a guy when he's down? Hahaha. Fact is, the huckster Silky Pony is now dead meat. Better to be dead, though, than eaten alive by Hillary.
Posted by: bird dog at February 11, 2007 10:28 AM (86QII)
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I can understand how some Christians could be offended by "godbags". I personally refer to them as "Christianites", or "American Taliban". First, I am a Christian, but I do not force my religious views on others through political or other means. I try to live as an example for others to follow, not as a terroist who chooses to use force to rape Americans of there freedom, and ostricize them for thinking differently. Mary did not want an abortion, so no coathanger was needed, and Jesus lived. Jesus did not attack people who disagree, Mohammed did. Jesus did not force people to live His way, Mohammed did. These Godbags are the Christians who choose to use force to convert all to their idologies, just like the Taliban, and every other radical
Muslim cult. These words are synonomous:
Godbags/
Christianites/
American Taliban/
Republicans/
Posted by: michael oconnell at February 11, 2007 08:26 PM (zuclv)
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Rudy Giuliani and Arnold Schwarzenegger are both Republicans; are they therefore godbag christianite American Taliban too? And when is the last time born again Bible thumping Christians flew airplanes into office buildings? Most conservative Christians do not advocate abrogation of the Constitution in favor of the Bible; they prefe the Constitution that protects their freedom of worship. Frankly O'Connell I think your equation is simplistic. Perhaps it is a failure of diction: you don't understand the meaning of synonomous. Either that or you're an ass and I'd rather give you the benefit of the doubt.
Posted by: Zhombre at February 11, 2007 10:28 PM (zavax)
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the Christians who choose to use force to convert all to their idologies
Could you provide a single example of someone who was converted by force?
Posted by: Purple Avenger at February 11, 2007 10:35 PM (HDpFt)
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If the criticism came from another source and not William Donahue, perhaps Edwards would've fired the bloggers. However, if Edwards caved to him, he'd have lost the entire left blogosphere.
Posted by: Shawn at February 12, 2007 12:44 PM (VxC95)
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A Gathering of Eagles
Via Bill Faith of Small Town Veteran, A Veterans group calling themselves "A Gathering of Eagles" will be on hand to protect the Vietnam Veterans' Memorial in Washington, D.C. on March 17, against anti-war protesters they feel might intend to deface the monument dedicated to the more than 58,000 Americans who lost their lives fighting the Vietnam War. Anti-war protestors recently defaced the steps of the U.S Capitol with anti-war slogans.
From the "Gathering of Eagles"
Web page:
"We'll be there to act as a countervailing force against the Cindy Sheehan-Jane Fonda march from the Vietnam Memorial to the Pentagon," retired Navy Capt. Larry Bailey said. "We will protect the Vietnam Memorial. If they try to deface it, there will be some violence, I guarantee you."
Bailey and thousands of his fellow Vietnam vets are worried that the anti-war protesters will damage the wall, just as they spray-painted the steps of the Capitol at their last march.
The wall is sacred to the men and women who fought in that war.
"It is our contact with our dead brothers -- those who lost their lives in the cause of their country," Bailey said.
And so it is that Washington will see a Gathering of Eagles - Americans determined to stand up against leftist propagandists who denigrate U.S. troops and the mission for which they sometimes sacrifice their lives.
Retired Col. Harry Riley organized the Gathering of Eagles. Organizers hope thousands will show up in Washington from as far away as Hawaii, and they won't only be Vietnam veterans. Families, friends and veterans of other wars, including Iraq, and soldiers still on active duty, will be there to defend the Wall.
It is shameful that this overwatch even needs to occur, but as the recent incident at the Capitol indicates, some anti-war protesters—and please note that we're only talking about a small minority of those protestors, I hope—feel there is something to gain by such seething displays of unbridled contempt for this country.
That said, looking at the participants in this march, I think that the "Gathering of Eagles" has every reason to feel concerned.
The leftist Web site MarchonPentagon.org describes the anti-war demonstrators this way: "The March on the Pentagon has already attracted more than 1,500 endorsers, including prominent individuals and national and grassroots organizations. Students on college campuses and in high schools will be attending in large numbers. There will be a large turnout from the Muslim and Arab American community, which is organizing throughout the country."
The movement is well-financed. Its sponsor list is lengthy and contains highly recognizable names, as well as those of Fonda and Sheehan:
- Former U.S. Attorney General Ramsey Clark (who offered his services to defend Saddam Hussein)
- Ultra-liberal Congresswoman Maxine Waters
- Former Congresswoman Cynthia McKinney
- Ron Kovic, Vietnam veteran and author of "Born on the 4th of July"
- Mahdi Bray, executive director, Muslim American Society Freedom Foundation
- Waleed Bader, vice chair of the National Council of Arab Americans and former president of Arab Muslim American Federation
- Medea Benjamin, co-founder, CODEPINK and Global Exchange
- Free Palestine Alliance
- Muslim American Society Freedom Foundation
- Islamic Political Party of America
- FMLN (Farabundo Marti National Liberation Front)
- Islamic-National Congress
- Gay Liberation Network
- Muslim Student Association
- Jibril Hough, chairman, Islamic Political Party of America
It may be worth noting that for a march apparently organized by leftists, the overwhelming majority of sponsoring groups have a radical Islamic focus.
The Muslim American Society Freedom Foundation is one of the groups that threatened a "
Sheikdown" of U.S Airways after the removal of six imams from a Minneapolis- to-Phoenix flight in which the imams performed what one airline pilot stated was "
a terrorist probe in the airline industry."
A 2004
Chicago Tribune article states that the MSA is the American face of the Muslim Brotherhood, a group that seeks to impose radical Islamist
sharia law as the government of the United States. The terrorist group Hamas is also a wing of the Brotherhood, and the Brotherhood was financially supported by none other than Ayatollah Khomeini. Khomeini's movement is also responsible for kidnapping American embassy personnel for 444 days from 1979-81.
Osama Bin Laden was influence by professors closely alligned with the Brotherhood, and his current cavemate, Ayman al-Zawahiri
joined the group at age 14 before "graduating" to found al Qaeda with bin Laden.
Mahdi Bray, current leader of that group and a supporter of the Hamas and Hezbollah terrorist groups according to
JihadWatch, protested on behalf of both Ahmad Abu-Ali (charged with plotting to kill President Bush), and Abdurrahman Alamoudi, a man convicted in a plot to assassinate Crown Prince Abdullah of Saudi Arabia.
Waleed Bader, vice chair of the National Council of Arab Americans and former president of Arab Muslim American Federation, previous protested against the "occupation of Iraq and Palestine." The National Council of Arab Americans called the creation of the state of Israel as the "
Palestinian Catastrophe (Nakba) of 1948" just this past July.
The Free Palestine Alliance has attempted to stifle the business of Caterpillar Corporation (the bulldozer folks), saying that they want "to expose Caterpillar’s complicity in Israel’s war crimes." This "complicity" is apparently the IDF practice of using Caterpillar bulldozers to destroy tunnels used to smuggle firearms and explosives to terrorist groups in Gaza, which are then used to target Israeli civilians.
The Farabundo Marti National Liberation Front, better known as FMLN, is a communist organization from El Salvador formed in 1970 which fought a civil war against that country's government in the 1980s, and was once identified as a
Marxist-Leninist terrorist organization before putting down their arms to become a purely political party.
The Muslim Student Association, with multiple chapters at universities around the country, has been investigated for funding terrorism
multiple times. A Speaker from the group was once quoted by Robert Spenser as saying, "The only relationship you should have with America is to topple it." The MSA has
invited neo-Nazis to speak at forums sponsored by the group.
These primarily Islamist groups are among the vanguard of those sponsoring the anti-war march scheduled in the nation's capitol for March 17. Based upon this roll call of Islamists, terror supporters, and neo-Nazi admirers playing a leading roll in the anti-war march, I'd say that the Gathering of Eagles has every reason to be concerned for the sanctity of the powerful monument known simply as
The Wall.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
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I just put a reminder up in my calender I will be there with my 18 year old just as we were there to counter-protest the anti-war idiots. I look forward to standing with true hero's and against Islamic cowards.
Posted by: Rightmom at February 09, 2007 10:28 AM (0lpqx)
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What "Caterpillar’s complicity in Israel’s war crimes" refers to is the practice of the IDF of using armored Cat bulldozers to destroy the houses of the families of suicide bombers. Since large extended families are the norm in Palestine, this form of collective punishment generally results in dozens being made homeless in revenge for the actions of one person. It's also illegal under international law and the Geneva Convention (not that that's ever bothered the IDF anyway). It also results in deaths, as when American activist Rachel Corrie was killed by one such vehicle trying to defend a Palestinian family. PS The charming folk at Little Green Footballs jokingly refer to this brave American as Saint Pancake.
Posted by: Mack at February 09, 2007 11:15 AM (VRb5p)
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You post is somewhat correct. You just need to cross out "a Palestinian family" and replace with "weapons smuggling tunnels."
Posted by: BohicaTwentyTwo at February 09, 2007 11:28 AM (oC8nQ)
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So you think Rachel Corrie died defending a "weapons smuggling tunnel"? I suppose you believe in the mythical Iraqi "weapons of mass destruction" as well? Dream on.
Posted by: Mack at February 09, 2007 11:36 AM (VRb5p)
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Corrie was trying to defend a Palestinian family? They must have been very slow. As bulldozers typicall move slower than a old guy in a walker, pardon me if I don't buy your explanation.
The way I hear it, the IDF was destorying a weapons smuggling tunnel, and if my memory serves me correctly, that particular tunnel terminated in a Palestinian home.
As for the group Corrie was a part of, the International Solidarity Movement (ISM), they have some rather interesting views.
Here's a telling picture of Corrie's fellow "peace activists" in the ISM holding AK-47s and posing with terrorists from the al Aksa Martyrs Brigades.
Nice friends you've got there, Mack.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at February 09, 2007 11:37 AM (g5Nba)
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Readers can (try to) make up their own minds on the circumstances of Rachel Corrie's death by looking at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rachel_Corrie. My point remains that using bulldozers to destroy the homes of Palestinian families, often making several generations of a family homeless, (and this practice is well documented) is a sure way to create new terrorists. As that great military genius Donald Rumsfeld once mused, "Are we killing terrorists faster than we're creating them?" (or something along those lines). At the rate the Israelis are going, they'll have to kill ALL the Palestinian people to arrive at a final solution.
Posted by: Mack at February 09, 2007 12:14 PM (VRb5p)
7
you think Rachel Corrie died defending a "weapons smuggling tunnel"?
She died cuz she was a retard who had no understanding of the basic physics of F=MA
Posted by: Purple Avenger at February 09, 2007 01:41 PM (HDpFt)
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CY - no peace protester will deface the Vietnam Vet memorial. It would be terrible publicity. And most of them think of it as a symbol of the waste and loss of Vietnam; they think it's an anti-war monument.
You may get a few of the extreme-extreme-right trying that as provocation and to blame the protesters, but even that I can't imagine.
It's just not realistic to think that the memorial is in any danger.
Posted by: Jake Ketcher at February 09, 2007 02:39 PM (SQ9Fj)
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CY - no peace protester will deface the Vietnam Vet memorial. It would be terrible publicity.
You presume rational thought. This is not necessarily the case.
Posted by: Purple Avenger at February 09, 2007 02:43 PM (HDpFt)
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It would be terrible publicity? You mean like spitting on Iraq veterans? That type of bad publicity. You underestimate their hatred. Read through CY's post again. Look at some of the groups there and think again.
Posted by: BohicaTwentyTwo at February 09, 2007 03:03 PM (oC8nQ)
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Purple - agreed, it would take a criminal lunatic.
But I think, and most would agree, that realistic threat assessment is of primary importance to security planning. And it's just not realistic to think peace marchers pose a threat of defacement the Vietnam Vet memorial.
Peace marchers are predisposed to pacifism - and that's the whole problem that many conservatives have with them.
Posted by: Jake Ketcher at February 09, 2007 04:48 PM (SQ9Fj)
12
Peace marchers are predisposed to pacifism
Not really. Had they not been throwing rocks and crap (a very pacifist thing I'll admit) at the guardsmen at Kent State, some of them would never have been laying on the ground dead.
Posted by: Purple Avenger at February 09, 2007 06:24 PM (HDpFt)
13
Peace marchers are predisposed to pacifism - and that's the whole problem that many conservatives have with them.
Wonder why the Park Service is putting up a snow fence to keep the protesters away from the memorial and staffing up...?? Maybe they know something you don't know? ANSWER is not a "Peace" Organization...Peace is merely a bludgeon they use to attack our government.
Rachel Corrie was a terrorist that got exactly what was coming to her.
Posted by: Pierre at February 10, 2007 11:15 AM (xKF2E)
14
Years ago I went to a "pro gun" rally at the state house in Tallahassee. No fences were needed.
I planned to stick around to help with the "cleanup"...but the funny thing was, no cleanup was needed. There was no trash on the ground and not even the flower beds around the state house lawn had been trampled. One of the state police who was there said to me it was the most courteous and well behaved crowd he'd ever seen demonstrate there. The property was left exactly as we'd found it.
Ever since that day, I figure you can tell a lot about a group of people by how they respect (or disrespect as the case may be) the common public property.
Posted by: Purple Avenger at February 10, 2007 02:26 PM (HDpFt)
15
Peace marchers are predisposed to pacifism - and that's the whole problem that many conservatives have with them.
Not that I've seen. They tend to be rude, crude, threatening and unable to explain why they believe what they do.
There are some that do not agree with the war who are not the above, however, in several years, I have *yet* to meet a polite, well-mannered peace marcher who will even try to use logic or reason.
Posted by: Foxfier at February 11, 2007 02:02 AM (OtIqW)
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February 08, 2007
Oh, Jeez...
It's a race to the bottom, kids.
Bill Donohue, president of the conservative-leaning Catholic League and the first to call on the Democratic presidential candidate to fire the bloggers, told FOXNews.com that he is not satisfied with Edwards' decision to scold — but not can — the staffers.
By not firing Andrea Marcotte and Melissa McEwan, Donohue said, Edwards is promoting anti-Catholicism. He said the 2008 Democratic contender's actions should be viewed in the same way it would be seen if Edwards had not fired a staffer who had used the 'n'-word.
"He's nothing more than David Duke with a blow-dried haircut," Donohue said of Edwards.
Considering the apparent shall we say,
shared appreciation of the Jewish faith that Donahue and Duke seem to have in common, I think he better find a less self-immolating comparison.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
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1
You're equating the Catholic League with David Duke, the holocaust denier last seen at a conference in Tehran?
CY, that's just plain out of line. Edwards' bloggers were blasted for criticizing Catholics...this makes it seem you're angling for a job on Edwards' campaign.
Posted by: Jake Ketcher at February 08, 2007 10:28 PM (SQ9Fj)
2
Jake, I was pretty clear. The letters D-O-N-A-H-U-E aren't pronounced "Catholic League" by most folks. Perhaps you need a speech coach, or perhaps an art teacher to help build your strawman a little better next time.
Bill Donahue is rather clear on how he feels about Jews, and it is no great stretch to see a comparison between these two men in that regard.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at February 08, 2007 11:42 PM (HcgFD)
3
Jake, Donahue is not the Catholic League. That said, I did look him up in Wikipedia ('cause CY didn't give any detail) and there was reference to him denigrating bigwigs in Hollywood, saying (paraphrasing now) that these secular Jews were ruining America via Hollywood. That's uncalled for.
And I agree with CY that Donahue comparing Edwards to David Duke is wrong. Worse that wrong, it's crass, stupid, tone deaf, inaccurate and, last but not least, impolite. I expect more from my fellow RC'ers especially those who want to represent me or my faith and he should be called on the carpet for it.
But CY, it seems to me, your reference to Donahue being like DD is way, way off. Tit-for-tat never helps.
Posted by: Dusty at February 08, 2007 11:56 PM (GJLeQ)
4
Thanks for the link, CY. Ya gotta love Donahue sticking his foot in his own mouth with this, don't ya.
"... Frankly, Michael Moore represents a cult movie. Mel Gibson represents the mainstream of America."
Nothing like that example to make you want to stick to praising a person's acts and swearing off altogether praising the person.
Posted by: Dusty at February 09, 2007 12:03 AM (1Lzs1)
5
if only the left would criticize one of their "own" the way the right criticizes their "own" - e.g. CY vs. Bill Donohue...
Anybody on the left taken Amanda to task yet?
Posted by: bains at February 09, 2007 12:34 AM (L5o+I)
6
Donahue does seem like a moonbat.
Posted by: Purple Avenger at February 09, 2007 01:59 AM (HDpFt)
7
What is it with the rebubs or such thinkers.
These vile biotches are exactly the kind of reps someone like Edwards needs, they carry his flag, boast his accomplishments, all tainted with well go read them and it's rather obvious.
BTW, he fired them and rehired them the same day. Seems the further left bloggers could not stand that Edwards could stand for anything. Being an attorney and all, he has not real standards right?
Oh well, they had some wonderful convos, and who knows the trollops may learn something, Johnny may also learn something.
Then again he may be using this as nothing but bait to pave the road to his new diggs, err for Hillarious!
Stay tuned...
Posted by: TC at February 09, 2007 04:24 AM (dcL7N)
8
Who are you talking about? D-O-N-O-H-U-E or D-O-N-A-H-U-E? One was a liberal talk show host, the other the head of the Catholic League.
Posted by: Jake Ketcher at February 09, 2007 02:34 PM (SQ9Fj)
9
Who are you talking about?
The one in the news recently? They are both nuts though.
Posted by: Purple Avenger at February 09, 2007 02:45 PM (HDpFt)
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"Is Anna Nicole Smith still dead, Wolf?"
The sensitivity of Jack Cafferty on display in CNN's The Situation Room, moments ago.
Classy guy, that Cafferty.
Update: Allahpundit has
the video.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
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1
I'm pretty sure stem cells can bring her back.
Posted by: Purple Avenger at February 08, 2007 07:33 PM (HDpFt)
2
^^^ classic comment. ^^^
Posted by: David at February 08, 2007 09:14 PM (tGHYV)
3
I wonder what attorney will get to "have the newborn raised? What fees he will charge for such services,cuz I'll bet getting to fark her wuz not really enough payment for him!
I wish Vegas would come out with some odds on such.
Oh and we also have a past photographer making claims of fatherhood as well!
This is going to get real interesting!
Posted by: TC at February 09, 2007 04:27 AM (dcL7N)
4
Cafferty's comment may have been crass, but it reflects a valid frustration about the overblown coverage of all things Anna Nicole Smith. If she had been a 36-year old librarian, rather than a 26-year old "dancer" when she married Marshall, she would have been a mere blip on our cultural radar.
Posted by: MikeM at February 09, 2007 08:12 AM (vpavG)
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...you careless AP hacks.
When, exactly, did you become the poster child for polite discourse?
Posted by: Dave at February 09, 2007 02:20 PM (iupKO)
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Cafferty's comment may have been crass
Don't confuse mindlessness with crass.
Posted by: Purple Avenger at February 09, 2007 02:46 PM (HDpFt)
7
NEWSFLASH! As of this afternoon, she's still dead Jack.
Posted by: Purple Avenger at February 09, 2007 02:47 PM (HDpFt)
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Swiftboating Redefined
It appears that the Marcotte/McEwan/Edwards blog controversy has entered a second day with little letup in the comments coming from both the right and the left.
For those of you just coming around to this story, the John Edwards campaign hired a pair of comically stereotypical feminist bloggers (on who's advice, no one will say), Amanda Marcotte of
Pandagon and Melissa McEwan of
Shakespeare's Sister, respectively. Once hired, some conservative and libertarian bloggers began bringing to light some of the previous posts written by these bloggers (focusing on Marcotte in particular), many of which are offensive to those outside of the insular world of far-left political blogging. A right-wing bigot by the name of Bill Donahue began calling for their heads for comments written by these two that he said were anti-Catholic, these comments hit the
New York Times, and the brouhaha went mainstream.
By late yesterday afternoon, word leaked out that Marcotte and McEwan had been fired by the Edwards campaign...
or not.
There have been a lot of pixels slung around on both sides in the blogosphere over this one, but I've been particularly fascinated at the response thus far from the liberal blogs trying to close ranks around Marcotte and McEwan.
Some are attempting to the "
right-wing character assassination machine" for the issue being raised. Others are declaring a "
rightwing Swiftboat-style attack" on the two bloggers. Another claims that the "
smear train" has been fired up.
My, how the goalposts have changed.
According to Wikipedia, character assassination can be
defined as:
Character assassination is an intentional attempt to influence the portrayal or reputation of a particular person, whether living or a historical personage, in such a way as to cause others to develop an extremely negative, unethical or unappealing perception of him or her. By its nature, it involves deliberate exaggeration or manipulation of facts to present an untrue picture of the targeted person...
In practice, character assassination usually consists of the spreading of rumors and deliberate misinformation on topics relating to one's morals, integrity, and reputation.
Also according to Wikipedia, "swiftboating" can be
defined as:
Swiftboating is American political jargon for an ad hominem attack against a public figure coordinated by an independent or pseudo-independent group, usually resulting in a benefit to an established political force.
This form of attack is controversial, easily repeatable, and difficult to verify or disprove because it is generally based on personal feelings or recollections...
"Smear train" and other assertions made on the left to describe this conflagration are not so easy to define, so let's focus on whether or not the allegations of "character assassination" and swiftboating" really apply to this case.
Character assassination requires "deliberate exaggeration or manipulation of facts to present an untrue picture of the targeted person," and "usually consists of the spreading of rumors and deliberate misinformation on topics relating to one's morals, integrity, and reputation."
That is
clearly not in evidence in this instance; Marcotte has been hoisted on her proverbial petard for her own controversial words, not for the words of others. The only possible claim of manipulation that can be made is that some critics have chosen to publish shorter excerpts of her commentary for the sake of brevity. Her comments, however have not been taken out of context, and a reader disturbed by her excerpted comments will be no less offended if they read the entire post in its entirety. In some instances, the full posts only serves to make Marcott'e comments more appalling to those offended by the excerpts. These comments made by Marcotte reflect her own, true feelings, as written by her own hand. A review of her comments resulted not in character assassination, but character definition. Charges of character assassination are completely false.
What about the charge of "swiftboating?"
The charges against Marcotte and McEwan are neither "difficult to verify or disprove." We have permalinks to what Marcotte haven't erased, and the rest is captured in the Google cache. The greatest damage done, clearly has been from a spotlight being cast on their own freely-given words. These words are, however, clearly based upon their own personal feelings, so one could presumably make the argument that they "swiftboated" themselves.
Other liberal bloggers have complained that Marcotte and McEwan have complained that the rantings on their personal blogs does not indicate in any way how they may perform as part of the Edwards campaign. It is of course true, but that was not the argument they were making when they
pilloried Ben Domenech for the plagiarism he commited prior to joining the Washington
Post as a blogger.
As a matter of fact, Media Matter's own
David Brock stated:
...with each hour bringing new evidence of Domenech's racially charged rhetoric and homophobic bigotry, the time has come for the Post to end its ill-conceived relationship with Domenech. Examples of Domenech's views include:
- In a February 7 post on RedState, Domenech wrote that he believed people should be "pissed" that President Bush attended "the funeral of a Communist" -- referring to the funeral for Coretta Scott King. As you know, labeling the King family "communists" was a favorite tool of the racists who opposed them.
In another RedState post, Domenech compared "the Judiciary" unfavorably to the Ku Klux Klan. - In still another RedState comment, Domenech posted without comment an article stating that "[i]t just happens that killing black babies has the happy result of reducing crime" and that "[w]hite racists have reason to be grateful for what is sometimes still called the civil rights leadership" because black leaders "are overwhelmingly in support" of abortion rights.
- In yet another, Domenech wrote that conservative blogger/journalist Andrew Sullivan, who is gay, "needs a woman to give him some stability."
Domenech has also been caught at least once apparently fabricating a quote. A June 20, 2002, Spinsanity.org entry demonstrated that Domenech made up a quote he attributed to Tim Russert in order to defend President Bush.
In a post on RedState.com, Domenech once agreed with a commenter who called Washington Post columnist Dan Froomkin "an embarrassment to the saner heads at the paper."
It is time for "saner heads" to prevail. Will The Washington Post honor its history as one of America's most respected news organizations -- or will it stand with Ben Domenech, tacitly endorsing his assault on Coretta Scott King, his offensive suggestion that a gay man "needs a woman," and his fabrication of a quote?
America is watching.
David Brock seemed very concerned about the rhetoric and bigotry of Domenech, even moreso than his plagiarism, if his letter can be believed. He and his fellow liberals were quite against what they construed as hate speech then.
Funny how Brock and other liberals don't seem to have a problem with the incendiary rhetoric and the readily apparent bigotry of two of their own,
now.
Update: Edwards is
not firing Marcotte and McEwan.
I lack the words to fully express just how devilishly amusing this is to me.
Luckily, Jeff G. captures the essence of this debacle
perfectly:
But lost on these Marcotte supporters—who are cheering on the power of the “netroots” to cow a politician into keeping on an ugly and hateful liability—is that Edwards just showed up Marcotte and McEwan as frauds and posturing blowhards, writers who have been pulling the wool over their audiences’ eyes by posting vicious “arguments” they never truly believed. To use the loaded language of establishment feminism—he publicly castrated them—and in so doing, he made fools out of their audiences, to boot.
Further, in doing so, he has shown himself to be nothing more than a calculating political opportunist of the worst sort—one who believes the voting public so daft they might actually buy a statement like the one he just released.
As I wrote yesterday, I don’t care one way or the other, personally, about whether or not Marcotte and McEwan are allowed to keep their josb. That’s Edwards’ call. And from a blogging perspective, I suppose Edwards’ decision is good news.
But let’s not confuse the effect with the rationale—which is both risible and insulting. Because were it really never Marcotte’s intent to malign anyone’s faith, she probably wouldn’t have dedicated so many hate-filled blog posts to, you know—maligning anyone’s faith.
Of course it was her intent. Just as it was McEwan’s intent. And worst of all, Edwards knows it. That he has pretended to take the two at their word, in an ostentatious gesture of “trust,” is precisley the kind of staged treacle that makes people doubt the sincerity of politicians; and that both Marcotte and McEwan have assured their own personal Patriarch that they’ll behave, now that he’s promoted them to the grownups’ table, is, to put it bluntly, one of the most pathetic public surrenderings of personal integrity I’ve ever seen.
Seriously. We should feel bad for them.
That is, were we to actually believe they meant any of it. Because how this plays out for the netroots is this way: either they are cheering on an ideological sellout, or they are knowingly and happily embracing an opportunistic liar. So. Congrats to them. Once again, they’ve covered themselves in white hot sticky glory!
There is more, of course, so be sure to read the whole thing.
My take away on this is that Marcotte, McEwan, and Edwards will say or do
anything it takes to attempt to preserve their limited relevance. Once the primary season is over, Marcotte's and McEwan's futile efforts will be forgotten, but their willingness to prostitute their principles for a furtive brush with greatness will last far, far longer.
At least Edwards will still have nice hair.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
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1
Did the women steal from anyone?
It's not snark, I'm really curious. Any writer -- and I expect lots of bloggers as well -- get quite upset at the thought of someone stealing their work, which is what Domenech did.
As I understand it, the problem with the two women, as perceived by the right wingers, is that they are uncivil in some of their postings on their personal blogs.
I do not see comparing them to Domenech as a fair comparison.
Posted by: zhak at February 08, 2007 11:16 AM (Ckhbg)
2
Keep setting up those strawmen, zhak; they are so easy to knock down.
It must have been difficult skipping over the thrust of David Brock's arguments, which placed more emphasis on what he felt was Domenech's rhetoric and bigotry, but you found a way to do it. Congratulations.
No, I don't think that anyone has accused Marcotte or McEwan of plagiarism, nor should they. They should instead focus on their rhetoric of bigotry, which is quite abundant: bashing Christians, Catholics, God, angels, men, Southerners, people who chose to reproduce, and so on and so forth.
Don't get me wrong--both Marcotte and McEwan are serially non-civil, but that label can be overwhelmingly applied to most left wing blogs, who somehow seem to feel, like back in fourth grade, the ablity to usher forth profanities is the "in" thing to do. They apparently think it is "edgy," while most find it to be the mark of someone lacking in vocabulary and intellectual dexterity.
No, the reasons Marcotte/McEwan/Edwards are under fire is that these two bloggers regularly engage in what their targets quickly and accurately identify as a kind of hate speech. It isn't criminally actionable hate speech by any means, but if you can't feel the venom, contempt, and raw hatred with which they've targeted these and other subjects, then you suffer a catastrophic lack of perspective.
It is also inarguable that the displayed rhetorical bigotry of Marcotte--McEwan, I've frankly not much read--is far beyond any "rhetoric" or "bigotry" ever published by Domenech, and by that standard, the comparison is beyond fair to Marcotte, and perhaps instead a comparison unfair to Domenech.
If that is the case, I should perhaps apologize to the plagiarist.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at February 08, 2007 11:43 AM (g5Nba)
3
Yes, you should absolutely apologize to Domenech, because incivility is so much more objectionable than outright theft.
One might argue that repeatedly questioning the loyalty and patriotism of those with whom you have political disagreements is not the strongest demonstration of civil discourse. But as long as no foul language is used, the mask of polite interaction can be maintained, I suppose.
The use of vulgarities is often a manifestation of the outrage that comes from being the continual target of lies and slanders, or from having what one might once have believed unassailable rights inexorably whittled away by an administration that puts political expediency ahead of all other considerations. Sometimes a sputtered obscenity is all that can issue forth in the face of the utter contempt for human compassion displayed by those on the right with increasing frequency these days.
In any case, making the argument that publishing a few curse words or angry thoughts is somehow more repugnant that deliberately stealing the ideas of others and claiming them as your own shows a level of moral confusion that should be very disturbing to your readers, if not to yourself.
Posted by: Singularity at February 08, 2007 12:41 PM (RDZGl)
4
Make sure you get that last one, folks: plagiarism is worse than hate speech, and when issued from people Singularity admires, hate speech is just "a few curse words or angry thoughts."
Further, I'd add that Marcotte's problems don't arise from "being the continual target of lies and slanders." Frankly, most of her problems come from being quoted accurately.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at February 08, 2007 12:57 PM (g5Nba)
5
I try to not spend much time filling empty vessels or cure terminal myopia...but leftists look at fresh road apples and smell roses.
These two leftist verbal cesspools are virulently hateful, spasmodically sinister, write as if they have Socialist Tourette's...and one of the flailing apologies that comes back...is...IT'S BUSH'S FAULT!
No. It. Isn't.
The impaired vision and even more impaired reasoning of the bulge and spittle corps...propagandizing for the World Populist playbook's blather...PREDATES George W. Bush, by several decades.
This inanity may have increased in volume...the mendacious mate with the obnoxious to produce megaphone streetcorner preachers and shouters with keyboards...but the inane "message" hasn't changed in 40 years.
What's ironic and somewhat farcical...is that in all their high froth and curselather...they are nearly to a tee...the tantrum throwing poster children for EVERYTHING they SAY...they stand against. Too wound up to recognize it...too shallow to self-reflect on it, too self-absorbed to correct it.
Posted by: cfbleachers at February 08, 2007 01:55 PM (V56h2)
6
Edwards is not firing Marcotte and McEwan.
The man knows quality when he sees it.
Posted by: Purple Avenger at February 08, 2007 03:26 PM (HDpFt)
7
Amanda never attempted to erase her archives either singularly or as a plural.
Hinting that she did and doing it in garbled English - now that's classic swiftboating.
You go, Gomer
Posted by: DeWayne at February 08, 2007 09:36 PM (kq+Ol)
8
Although Jeff G. is correct that the reconcilation is a "staged treacle", he and you) are wrong to think that Marcotte and McEwan have surrendered their personal integrity. For them and their comrades, it is simply another instance of the ends justifying the means; lying to further their ideological goals is just another weapon in their arsenal.
Andy
Posted by: Andy at February 08, 2007 10:37 PM (9P4ZK)
9
Dewayne, what fantasy world to you live in? Marcotte clearly wiped her Duke post, completely replacing the disputed text of that post with something else.
You, sir, are a liar.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at February 08, 2007 11:13 PM (HcgFD)
10
Don't confuse him with the facts, he's on a roll.
Posted by: Purple Avenger at February 09, 2007 02:07 AM (HDpFt)
11
Dude, did any of you bother to READ what those folks wrote? And you're calling the BLOGHOST uncivil?
What the hey?
Frankly, I don't find making up a quote "worse" than going out specifically to lie and insult someone's religion-- both of them are childish, wrong, and generally done for bad reasons. Frankly, both are a form of lying, for that matter.
It's one thing to disagree and argue with someone on something as important as religion; it's another to rephrase the conception of Jesus as a porno and then go further into stupidity.
Posted by: Foxfier at February 09, 2007 11:36 AM (tHC5n)
12
Actually, CY, bringing up Ben Domenech is pretty much the essence of the strawman argument. Media Matters documented his rhetoric (as they do, incessantly), but he was fired for his plagarism. Pretty hard to separate one from the other, donchya think?
Marcotte is vulgar, and clearly a poor choice for any political campaign. I think tarring McEwan with the same brush is patently unfair, her major crime appears to be using profanity. As Eric Cartman once said, "What's the big deal? It doesn't hurt anybody. **** ****ity **** **** ****".
And thanks for bringing Jeff G to comment, he made a nice point, and all without any unnecessary ****slapping.
Posted by: Crusty Dem at February 09, 2007 02:14 PM (+VhgQ)
13
What everybody seems to be losing track of in all of this tabloid hoopla, is what kind of Man Who Would Be President would A) choose people like this for his staff in the first place and B) stand by them after they are exposed for what they are?
This man would be making monumental decisions for us all.
Posted by: Bane at February 09, 2007 05:37 PM (emyIX)
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February 07, 2007
His Name Was Scott
If you are going to write about the contractors killed by a mob in Fallujah, at least do them the honor of getting their names correct, you careless AP hacks:
The deaths of the four, all former members of the military, brought to U.S. television some of its most gruesome images of the Iraq war. A frenzied mob of insurgents ambushed a supply convoy the guards were escorting through Fallujah on March 31, 2004. The men were attacked, their bodies mutilated; two of the corpses were strung from a bridge.
At the hearing, Kathryn Helvenston-Wettengel, mother of Stephen Helvenston, read a statement on behalf of the families. She stopped several times to collect herself as she recounted the emotional day.
His name was
Scott Helvenston.
He was a fitness instructor, a celebrity trainer, Navy SEAL, and most importantly, a father. I don't expect AP to go into those details of his life, but I do expect them to pay enough attention to at least get his name right.
Update: I stand corrected. Via email from Eddy Twyford, Scott Helvenston's best friend:
His full name is Stephen Scotten Helvenston but as you know he was always called Scott.
The reporter simply chose to use Helvenston's lesser known given name, instead of his preferred nickname. I apologize to the Associated Press for calling them "careless hacks."
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
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From what I can gather, his first name was Stephen.
Middle name Scott.
Posted by: Aubrey at February 07, 2007 09:02 PM (q9WqX)
2
When you pass, we'll be sure to add Hysterical to your name. I know you're pissed all to hell that you haven't got anything on the AP and you reaaaaally want them to be guilty of something, but this won't fly either.
http://www.sealtraining.com/
Posted by: Lesley at February 08, 2007 02:18 AM (EEAAb)
3
Ignore the crude comments - but if you want to retrieve credibility from this, you need to retract and apologize unreservedly.
If you don't you will have discredited yourself entirely.
Posted by: Jake Ketcher at February 08, 2007 02:28 AM (SQ9Fj)
4
"His name was Scott"
I always knew you were a spacemonkey.
Posted by: bargal20 at February 08, 2007 02:34 AM (ftOjb)
5
Hmm, His given name was Stephen, he went by Scott.
All this argument over semantics?
CY, the post is technically incorrect (unless I read many wrong articles on him).
Crude Comment Guys - people make mistakes, you can let them know without showing your true colors, your crudeness shows more about your character then CY's.
Posted by: Retired Navy at February 08, 2007 06:16 AM (JYeBJ)
6
Oh come on, give us a little wiggle room on the snark.
So calling AP reporters who were rights careless hacks, and being snarky about their "mistake" is cool, but a little snark back to CY is out of line?
You dish out the condescension, you gotta eat the leftovers when it goes wrong.
Posted by: jonrog1 at February 08, 2007 06:33 AM (WvYe3)
7
"Crude Comment Guys - people make mistakes, you can let them know without showing your true colors, your crudeness shows more about your character then CY's."
Um, sure. And this would this be the same CY that, as one can clearly see above, called the AP reporters who wrote the original article "careless hacks," a particularly nasty insult to lob at a journalist, methinks... especially journalists CY clearly knows nothing about, save that they are guilty of being employed by current right-wing whipping boy Associated Press.
Character? Yeah, tell me about it.
Posted by: lard lad at February 08, 2007 06:35 AM (60dt6)
8
Retired Navy,
"People make mistakes"? "You can let them know without showing your true colors"?
Hmm...did Confederate Spanker take your advice or did he come rushing out in a cloud of cheeto dust, accusing AP reporters of dishonoring dead celebrity trainers, and of being hacks? Was he desperately trying to salvage even a smidgeon of his testicles after AP chewed them up and spat them back at him during the Jamal Hussein "conspiracy"?
The difference between we "crude" commenters and Confederate Wanker is we're commenting on actual defamation by him against AP, while he was fighting imaginary killer spiders.
Posted by: bargal20 at February 08, 2007 06:35 AM (ftOjb)
9
You know, I would have thought that a real retired Navy man would have been a little more tolerant of vigorous language. The Navy isn't exactly known for its habits of gentle speech.
Posted by: ajay at February 08, 2007 06:47 AM (FsJX9)
10
Heh...Neal's comment has vanished. How funny.
Maybe it's vanished because he didn't read his own source correctly:
" Paid Notice: Deaths
HELVENSTON, STEPHEN SCOTTEN
HELVENSTON -- Stephen Scotten, 38, died in Iraq on Wednesday, March 31, 2004. Born in Ocala, FL, he was preceded in death by his father Harry Stephen Helvenston, grandparents Donald Root Scotten and Mary Lu McLeod, and grandparents, Harry and L'Ouida Helvenston and Everett Wettengel. Residing in San Diego, California for the past 15 years he is survived by his mother Katy Helvenston - Wettengel of Leesburg, FL, a brother Jason Helvenston with fiance Jennifer Preiss of Orlando, FL, a son Kyle Jacob, a daughter Kelsey Erin and their mother Patricia Irby of San Diego, CA. He is also survived by Sybil Cross, Sheryl Lybbert, Donald Scotten, Mary Clare Scotten, and Paul Scotten..."
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9B02E1D81238F93AA35757C0A9629C8B63
Posted by: bargal20 at February 08, 2007 07:14 AM (ftOjb)
11
"I apologize to the Associated Press for calling them "careless hacks." The reporter simply chose to use Helvenston's lesser known given name, instead of his preferred nickname."
What? Are you serious? The reporter chose to do what a reporter is supposed to do when reporting on a death. He used the dead guy's real name! Do you expect your local giveaway newspaper to report the death of "Confederate Yankee" when they find you dead of an AP-induced conniption fit?
Posted by: bargal20 at February 08, 2007 07:20 AM (ftOjb)
12
All I can say to you is:
Doink!!!
Posted by: joeyess at February 08, 2007 08:43 AM (HT8+b)
13
Update: I stand corrected. Via email from Eddy Twyford, Scott Helvenston's best friend:
You should be used to this postition by now.
Wouldn't you like to sit down once in awhile?
We would appreciate it if you would "stand down".
jesus KEEEEEEEErist!!!
Posted by: joeyess at February 08, 2007 08:48 AM (HT8+b)
14
And why exactly is my comment gone?
Posted by: owlbear1 at February 08, 2007 10:50 AM (eJAhd)
15
And why exactly is my comment gone?
I must have gotten a little trigger happy deleting the "reasoned discourse" that a Tbogg link usually brings.
Your request to post an apology was within my posting guidelines, and I apologize to you, as well.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at February 08, 2007 10:59 AM (g5Nba)
16
I apologize for laughing.
Posted by: Lettuce at February 08, 2007 11:43 AM (zW3O4)
17
I realise it's not easy for any of us on either side of the political spectrum these days, but it's always worth a five minute search on Google before assuming the worst about The Other Side. At the very least, it keeps us from giving the other guys more ammunition for the "Look at those guys! What idiots!" posts.
Posted by: KevinJ at February 08, 2007 11:52 AM (NJH5U)
18
Confederate Yankee:
I am curious.
Do you roast it with gravy?
Saute it with onions and mushrooms?
Grill it and have it on a sandwich with mustard?
How do you prefer to prepare your crow?
Do you use one of the methods above, or another method?
Given the amount you have had to eat over the past few years (and even months), I imagine that you you must now be an expert in its preparation.
Peace,
Monkey Faced Liberal
Posted by: Monkey Faced Liberal at February 08, 2007 12:19 PM (ZUkHf)
19
If you don't you will have discredited yourself entirely.
well, I'd say it's WAY too late for that. This whole 'Associated with Terrorists Press' crap got old the minute he started harping on it.
Get over yourself. You found one picture that was photoshopped, and now you think you can discredit any media company that doesn't toe your sycophantic, bush-licking line.
Posted by: prozacula at February 08, 2007 12:33 PM (H6qKz)
20
CY, you did that with a lot of class. I'm impressed. Self discipline and restraint are the only true kinds. Well done.
Posted by: brando at February 08, 2007 12:36 PM (uZ35s)
21
Eating crow is admirable, but the real question is, will this may you stop and do a little fact checking the next you feel like going off on a tirade against your favorite windmills? My guess is probably not, but with humans I suppose there is always hope (you ARE human, aren't you?)
Posted by: The Frito Pundito at February 08, 2007 01:10 PM (bWjAU)
22
This was a perfect example of the kind of things we see coming out of the Right-wing blogosphere every day....outrage and fury over situations that don't exist. Someone out there will create a firestorm over the Pelosi's big plane (that she never asked for), an Iraqi policeman who is said to be a figment of AP's imagination (until the Iraqis say, "yes, he's one of ours"), outrage over the language used by Edward's bloggers (yet they smile when Bush or Cheney use "salty" curses) or any number of the endless fabrications and non-stories that Freepers hyper-ventilate over on a daily basis. You need to take a look at the patterns that you've developed as each new hysteria (that turns out to be yet another false alarm) contributes to the advanced decay of Right-wing credibility. The next time you're tempted to post another tirade filled with your outrage, take a deep breath and ask yourself if you're making the same mistakes again and again and again. You'll thank me when it turns out to be just another Malkin/LGF hoax...just because they make themselves look ridiculous doesn't mean you're required to join them.
Posted by: Arlington Acid at February 08, 2007 03:13 PM (F3Leu)
23
If you don't you will have discredited yourself entirely.
That train left long ago.
Posted by: Randy Paul at February 08, 2007 03:35 PM (mOoxv)
24
For the record, Acid, AP released a triumphant statement on January 4th saying that MOI's Brig. Abdul-Karim Khalaf said that "Jamil Hussein" was an Iraqi police officer.
On January 11, I received word from Bill Costlow of the Civilian Police Assistance Training Team (CPATT), who works directly with Brig. Abdul-Karim Khalaf's office at the Iraqi Ministry of the Interior.
He informed me that according to official MOI personal records, the man AP calls "Jamil Hussein" is actually Jamil Gulaim Innad XX-XXXXXXX.
He further confirmed that BG Abdul-Kareem Khalaf has spoken with members of the AP in Baghdad and has confirmation that he (XX-XXXXXXX) is the AP's source.
Can you follow what I just said? Let me repeat it for you:
MOI released the real identity of Jamil Hussein, and it is Jamil Gulaim Innad XX-XXXXXXX;, andMOI got the Associated Press to admit this fact to BG Abdul-Kareem Khalaf.
I emailed Steven R. Hurst within moments after getting this email from Costlow (still on January 11) and asked the following:
Mr. Hurst,
I refuse to publish his second middle or last name, but I hear that Jamil Hussein is actually Jamil Gulaim Innad XX-XXXXXXX, and that AP has been using Jamil Hussein as a pseudonym to protect him. Is that correct?
Hurst must have panicked. I had confirmation that Jamil Hussein wasn't Jamil Hussein, and not only did I have that, I had his real name (in the email, I published his full name).
Very quickly--within 90 minutes--I got a denial (on her second attempt, the first bounced back, she said) by none other than Linda Wagner herself, AP's Media Relations and Public Relations Director, with a denial.
So to recap:
Iraqi personnel records confirm that Jamil Hussein is actually Jamil Gulaim Innad XX-XXXXXXX.Iraqi BG Abdul-Kareem Khalaf confirmed with AP that AP's Jamil Hussein is actually Jamil Gulaim Innad XX-XXXXXXX.Steven R. Hurst and Linda Wagner of AP panicked and issued a hasty denial, something they assuredly wouldn't do unless I had the right name. Otherwise, they simply would have deleted the email, as they have so many of my follow-up questions that they still don't want to answer.
To this very day, AP denies that "Jamil Hussein" is Jamil Gulaim Innad XX-XXXXXXX. They have no choice. If they acknowledge that fact, or are forced to acknowledge that fact, then there will be very good reason to ask for resignations from Executive Editor Kathleen Carroll, Linda Wagner, and a half-dozen AP reporters.
Of course, this is a side issue to my major concern, which is getting the AP to issue a few simple corrections to the Hurriyah reporting. You know, little things like:
admitting that though they published accounts saying 24 people died in the attacks, that there is zero physical evidence to support those allegations, and strong photographic evidence contradicting these claims.admitting they greatly exaggerated the amount of damage done to the mosques in Hurriyah. AP claimed that four specific mosques were "burned and blew up." One was burned and blown up, one was burned, one suffered weapons damage without any evidence of fire (the very mosque where AP reported 18 people had died in an "inferno.") and the last suffered no more than a broken window, as stated in the most recent account by AP.
It's not physically hard to issue a correction. I did it.
I guess it is another thing entirely when you've back yourself into a corner based on compounding layers of lies.
I think a week or two back I promised a Jamilgate wrap-up, and I'm still working on it. Once it finally comes out, it should be quite interesting.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at February 08, 2007 04:07 PM (g5Nba)
25
KevinJ made a wise recommendation at 11:52AM -- And I give CY credit for issuing a CORRECTION and APOLOGY dramatically faster than those he criticized.
Posted by: Larry Faren at February 08, 2007 09:56 PM (bnMWQ)
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Stephen? Scott?
Contractor? Mercenary?
Tomato? Tomahto?
Posted by: DocAmazing at February 09, 2007 01:41 AM (fgLkq)
27
So to recap:
1. Hey, everybody, look over there!
Posted by: Dave at February 09, 2007 09:18 AM (iupKO)
28
Actually Dave, it was your fellow underpants gnome Acid who raised the subject. I was merely correcting him.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at February 09, 2007 10:25 AM (g5Nba)
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Hatergate
The blogger dust-up over John Edwards choice of campaign bloggers has hit the mainstream media, as at least one radio station in Raleigh has pounced upon the foul language and anti-Catholic rants of Amanda Marcotte and Melissa McEwan, of liberal blogs Pandagon and Shakespeare's Sister, respectively.
John M. Broder of the
NY Times is on the case
as well:
Two bloggers hired by John Edwards to reach out to liberals in the online world have landed his presidential campaign in hot water for doing what bloggers do — expressing their opinions in provocative and often crude language.
The Catholic League, a conservative religious group, is demanding that Mr. Edwards dismiss the two, Amanda Marcotte of the Pandagon blog site and Melissa McEwan, who writes on her blog, Shakespeare’s Sister, for expressing anti-Catholic opinions.
Mr. Edwards, a former North Carolina senator, is among the leading Democratic presidential candidates.
That last sentence is sure to elicit a giggle here in North Carolina, where Edwards is widely reviled by many. But I digress.
Why are these two bloggers under fire? In Marcotte's case specifically, it is for her stupifyingly ignorant and inflammatory remarks about the lacrosse rape case in particular, along with a general predisposition towards profanity-laced, intolerant rants on various subjects. For McEwan, it seems directed at her profanity-laced intolerant rants in general.
The
Times article again, talking about Marcotte:
The two women brought to the Edwards campaign long cyber trails in the incendiary language of the blogosphere. Other campaigns are likely to face similar controversies as they try to court voters using the latest techniques of online communication.
Ms. Marcotte wrote in December that the Roman Catholic Church's opposition to the use of contraception forced women "to bear more tithing Catholics." In another posting last year, she used vulgar language to describe the church doctrine of the Immaculate Conception.
She has also written sarcastically about the news media coverage of the three Duke lacrosse players accused of sexual assault, saying: "Can't a few white boys sexually assault a black woman anymore without people getting all wound up about it? So unfair."
Of course, the
Times has chosen to present only her cleanest language: much of what Marcotte typically writes cannot be aired among civil and polite people. Her actual comment about the Immaculate Conception was
this (h/t
Patterico):
Q: What if Mary had taken Plan B after the Lord filled her with his hot, white, sticky Holy Spirit?
A: You’d have to justify your misogyny with another ancient mythology.
Nice. McEwan, as I noted earlier, is cut from much the same cloth:
Ms. McEwan referred in her blog to President Bush's "wingnut Christofascist base" and repeatedly used profanity in demanding that religious conservatives stop meddling with women's reproductive and sexual rights. Multiple postings use explicit and inflammatory language on a variety of issues.
I don't think you need to see any direct quotes from her blog to get the point.
Depending on their differing perspectives, bloggers on the right and left are approaching the story quite differently.
Michelle Malkin has thus far "vented" on Marcotte not
once, but
twice. Hanging Marcotte with her own words is not only sport, it's easy sport, and Michelle is by no means the only blogger on the right taking issue with Edward's blogger; libertarians and conservatives alike have pounded her in a decidedly non-procreative way.
Liberal bloggers seem to be approaching this story as a tempest in a teapot. In general, they seem to be taking the position that a compliant media is doing the will of the conservative and libertarian blogosphere ("
swiftboating", a term the left uses to disparage those who dare look at someone's track record of past performance), that the profanity issued forth on Pandagon, Shakespeare's Sister, and other liberal blogs is the main issue and really,
no big deal; it isn't like those
christofascist fringe right fundamentalists that consider women
brood animals would vote for Edwards anyway.
In my completely humble opinion, they just don't get it.
Boiled down to its purest form, national politics is a popularity contest where something less than have of the population is going to dislike a candidate for simply belonging to particular party, while something less than the other half is going to accept the candidate for the same reason. Whether that candidate goes to Washington or end up in the Old Politician's Home depends largely on attracting the significant minority in the middle who have either not made up their minds, have an open mind, or can be persuaded to change their minds to support a certain candidate.
William Donahue and the Catholic League are bomb-throwers in their own right, as several of the liberal bloggers commenting on this story rightly observe, but that is also completely irrelevant. Bill Donahue is not trying to win anyone's nomination to be a candidate for President. John Edwards is, and he hired a pair of bloggers that are "easy pickings."
Is it fair to judge Marcotte and McEwan for their past comments? Shouldn't people instead just focus on their current work for the Edwards campaign? Oh, it would be nice in an ideal world if our track records weren't used to judge our future performances, but out here in the real world, where people hire you based upon the premise that past performance indicates your future successes (or failures), that simply isn't the case.
The Edwards campaign should have been cognizant of the liabilities of hiring these two particular bloggers, as they are indeed perfect examples of a very popular subset of liberal bloggers that have produced a body of work that will offend many of those potential voters who have not made up their minds, have an open mind, or can be persuaded to change their minds to vote for Edwards in the Democratic primaries. That the "wingnut Christofascist base"—liberal code for Republican conservatives—are not going to be voting in the Democratic primaries is completely irrelevant.
Democrats, many of whom are conservatives, and a majority of which are Christians and "breeders",
are going to be choosing the Democratic Presidential candidates. Most of them don't read blogs, but many do read the newspapers, and they are likely to be offended that Edwards hired a pair of bloggers that mock their core values with the strongest possible language.
The kind of derisive language Marcotte, McEwan and her fellow travelers is widely accepted in their reality-based online community, but it is shocking enough to the supermajority of Americans that have never read a liberal blog, that even an ABC News blog questioned whether or not Marcotte's comments qualify as
hate speech, and whether or not hiring Marcotte and McEwan means Edwards condones such speech. Fair or not, many people formerly in that potential pool of Edwards voters are going to make the judgement that Marcotte's and McEwan's comments are condoned by Edwards because he hired them. At least some of those people are now probably lost to the Edwards campaign, as judged by comments like these at the ABC blog:
Hate speech is hate speech, whether from a democrat or a republican. You learn a lot about a person by watching the people they associate with. Marcotte's comments say something about her, and a lot about Edwards.
Posted by: Leonard | Feb 6, 2007 7:34:32 PM
* * *
Of course she has a right to say this juvenile stuff, but the question is, does it show good judgement on the part of the Edwards campaign to hire someone like this?
Believe me, I'm hoping he keeps these bloggers on the payroll. This can and be used against him now and further into the campaign.
Posted by: Brian | Feb 7, 2007 10:50:28 AM
* * *
...Look, I am not easily offended. I love South Park, don't have any problem with their irreverent Jesus parody (and I am a Christian). But this person's description of the immaculate conception is just WAY over the line. There is irreverent and then there is crude disrespect.
Does she have the right to write it? Of course, this is the internet. Will I be contributing to Edwards' campaign, as I did in '04? No way. Not if this is the type of person he chooses to surround himself with.
Posted by: Ron C | Feb 7, 2007 11:36:40 AM
At best, a campaign blog can moderately help a candidate. At worst, it can be a debilitating side issue detracting from overall message discipline, and making people focus on rhetorical garbage and hatred that the candidate (rightly or wrongly) seems to condone.
Edwards made a bad choice in hiring McEwan and Marcotte, and is now reaping a media firestorm for not properly vetting his potential blogging staff. There are certainly articulate, thoughtful bloggers bloggers on the left far better qualified to hold these positions. Dave Johnson, I think, at
Seeing the Forest may fit the bill for this kind of position, and I'm sure there is at least one other liberal blogger out there capable of holding a position without harboring such hate in their hearts.
Let me know when they find 'em.
Update: Godbags successful in crushing those speaking truth to power.
Truth be told, I'm kind of sad to see this happen. The Edwards campaign obviously didn't vet these two before offering them jobs. Firing them because of the the campaign's sloppiness in vetting their employees seems somewhat unfair. I'm not sure if McEwan has much lost over this, but Marcotte apparently moved across the country for this, and this will end up costing her real money.
Anyone know where she can find a good lawyer?
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
12:28 PM
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1
You can take the measure of someone by the company they keep.
Posted by: Purple Avenger at February 07, 2007 02:27 PM (4vmN2)
2
Their reputation on the blogs wouldn't be an issue if they were hired for something like assistant schedule keeper. But they were hired for their writing abilities, for the skills they have as bloggers, so their reputations as bloggers is going to be very pertinant.
That's the way the world works.
Posted by: Mikey NTH at February 07, 2007 03:36 PM (O9Cc8)
3
and this will end up costing her real money.
Too bad. "Free speech" does not mean free from consequences. That's a hard lesson for some people to learn.
Posted by: Purple Avenger at February 07, 2007 04:43 PM (4vmN2)
4
Purple Avenger, thanks you beat me to it. Lesson learned by adults: THERE ARE CONSEQUENCES TO YOUR ACTIONS AND WORDS! if you haven't yet learned that lesson you are either immature or extremely lucky. Regardless, learning this lesson can be painful. Later in life the pain can be extreme.
She can pay her own way.
Posted by: CoRev at February 07, 2007 08:40 PM (Hr52v)
5
Doncha think that just maybe she got some major severance money? Moved across the country? I'm betting you can safely call it an all-expense-paid luxury class vacation and a huge payday (not counting future talkshow honoraria and free publicity) in exchange for an interview or two.
Will Edwards at some point have to disclose what if anything his campaigned paid Marcotte and the other one? Is there a separate category for "hush money"? Or what kind of non-disclosure statements might she have signed ahead of time?
Posted by: Police Commissioner Hakim Hussein at February 07, 2007 09:06 PM (muz9j)
6
Man, I have been taking a dumpster dive around the leftosphere, and they should look up Mark Twain's saying about that river in Egypt. They really just do not get, or, do not want to get, what the issue is about. We on the right would not approve of some rightosphere blogger who wrote like those at pendagon, and would rightly call out the candidate who hired them.
With the leftards, it is a badge of honor to write like that.
Posted by: William Teach at February 07, 2007 09:23 PM (doAuV)
7
Ditto, CY. Donohue is a bomb thrower alright. Something tells me he would have no problem throwing a bomb in a black church, or a gay night club for that matter.
"Catholic League president Bill Donohue said lesbians were 'something I'd expect to see in an asylum, frankly' when he spoke to Justice Sunday, a gathering of far-right evangelical Christian activists."
Nothing but racists and homophobes. Nothing but.
Posted by: mkultra at February 07, 2007 11:41 PM (cIrLp)
8
The KKK were the church burners. There's still one in the senate I'm told.
Posted by: Purple Avenger at February 08, 2007 12:00 AM (4vmN2)
9
Hey Bob, when you say "libertarians and conservatives alike have pounded her in a decidedly non-procreative way," are you saying that Marcotte has been gang-sodomized by your crew? Why, I declare, how rude, sir! Such tawdry language!
I expect a full post deriding McCain's choice of a blogger. Oh, wait...no, I don't.
Posted by: Taste the Cheesesteak at February 08, 2007 12:15 AM (gLO/X)
10
Donohue thinks it would be best to lock lesbians up in asylums.
Who cares? That ain't gonna happen. If he wants to bark at the moon, that's OK by me.
Posted by: Purple Avenger at February 08, 2007 02:50 AM (4vmN2)
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Hardball?
Jules Crittenden has a post up this morning called Hardball, Anyone?, in which he posits that the Iranian diplomat kidnapped in Baghdad may be an example of the U.S playing hardball by snatching a "diplomat" that is actually an Iranian intelligence agent fomenting sectarian violence.
Plausible? Certainly, and an interesting theory. The Iranians, of course, are alleging exactly that. But quite frankly it doesn't sound like our
modus operandi.
We've captured Iranian operatives before--we're currently holding five right now--and our soldiers were in U.S. uniforms when they made their raids on a fixed location.
This diplomat--and I doubt very much he was a diplomat--was snatched from his car in a very crude ambush, where tow cars blocked his path, engaged his guards in a brief firefight, snatched him, and sped away. Four suspects in one car were captured by Iraqi police, only to be apparently
set free by Iraqi government officials the next day.
Could this be a simple kidnapping? That government officials allegedly ordered the release of four of the suspects suggests that it was not. This looks like an Iraqi operation, or at least an operation executed by Iraqis.
The question seems to be whether or not this an unsanctioned action by a rogue element of the Iraqi government, a directed clandestine action by the Iraqi government, or if this was an Iraqi operation on behalf of the United States. Quite frankly, we don't know, but the last seems the least plausible. When we want to arrest Iranian "diplomats," we simply do it, out in the open, as we did with the five already in custody. Why risk someone else screwing it up?
I suspect this is an Iraqi operation, one designed to send a message about Iran's meddling in Iraqi affairs. The only question in my mind is whether this operation was cleared from Nori- al-Maliki's office, or whether this action was autonomously conducted by other elements of the Iraqi government.
Either way, I'm sure the message sent to Tehran was received loud and clear. It only remains to be seen if the diplomat ever turns back up, and what the Iranian response may be.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
09:33 AM
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February 06, 2007
It's Official... Sorta
Live from Baghdad, the surge is officially on... depending on who you are listening to.
"Official" or not, American and Iraqi soldiers began operating yesterday, and are conducting raids tonight. To date, we have elements of the Iraqi Army 1st, 3rd, 5th, 7th and 9th Divisions operating in the Baghdad battlespace with Interior Ministry commandos and various American units, including a Brigade Combat Team of the 82nd Airborne and elements the U.S 2nd Division.
Allah's
updating like crazy. Stay tuned...
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
07:27 PM
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Coming Clean
Isn't it cathartic? (h/t Instapundit)
On Friday night's edition of Inside Washington airing locally on Washington PBS station WETA, the first topic was whether the media's been unfair to President Bush, given his abysmal approval ratings. NPR reporter Nina Totenberg said Bush received a "free ride" for years, so now the worm has turned and the coverage is fierce. Then the host turned to Newsweek's Evan Thomas, who was frank in his assessment of the media's role:
Gordon Peterson: "What do you think, Evan? Are the mainstream media bashing the president unfairly?"
Evan Thomas: "Well, our job is to bash the president, that's what we do almost --"
Peterson: "But unfairly?"
Thomas: "Mmmm -- I think when he rebuffed, I think when he just kissed off the Iraq Study Group, the Baker-Hamilton Commission, there was a sense then that he was decoupling himself from public opinion and Congress and the mainstream media, going his own way. At that moment he lost whatever support he had."
The message in that is very simple: the president must never "decouple" himself from the "mainstream media," because they are the key players in maintaining public opinion.
Honesty is such a lonely word.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
09:09 AM
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1
I voted for Bush, and considering who he was running against would do so again. But that being said, I think him to be one of the worst presidents we have had. He certainly has gone a long way to dividing the Republican party.
Start with the war on terror. What is that anyway? That is like declaring war on the atomic bomb. He should have taken the public energy generated by 911 and channeled it to a war on a definite, inclusive front. Lets say Arab, Muslims. That way he would not have to restrict our freedom (you can't get on a plane without breaking multiple constitutional rules). We would then have a common enemy. But this would have required isolating a group of people and for some reason our politicos can not do that.
Then immigration, enought said, he has done nothing.
The only good thing is the economy. But a president can only control this in a negative sense and has no power to generate a better economic situation. FDR caused much of the depression, but people do not understand that.
So basically Bush sucks, but so do all our politicians.
Posted by: David Caskey at February 06, 2007 09:34 AM (nwWaR)
2
I think that President Bush is absolutely horrible at communicating his message. He is an atrocious orator, doesn't ad lib well, his communication skills are close to nil.
And I still think he is 1000 times more honorable than the Ministry of Media and their leftist lemmings.
I think there is absolutely no honor in the profession of journalism at virtually EVERY major media outlet in this country. I believe they are beneath contempt.
I believe they lie, cheat, intentionally mislead, tell half-truths...when there is ANY truth at all to their stories, distort, hide facts, wilfully and maliciously attack anyone who doesn't buy into their warmed over World Populist movement, make idols out of leftist brutes, and denigrate, debase and destroy morale for our military.
I believe they are Americans in property rights only...and in their hearts they routinely root for our enemies.
There is nothing "progressive" about them...they are among the worst offenders for being closed minded, openly biased against certain races, colors, religions and creeds as well as jingoistic and dogmatic.
I believe they are among the worst offenders in lack of support for free speech, rushing to judgment against certain alleged criminal charges, and especially against certain individual and corporate defendants.
In fact, I believe they are nearly OPPOSITE of the faux "mask" they wear...and in what they daily dress themselves up as and hold themselves out as...they are more nearly in behavior and thought...the exact REPLICA...of the villains they paint.
Do they treat EVERY Republican, conservative...non-leftist...unfairly?
Is this a rhetorical question?
Of course they do. That's their modus operandi. Unfair is what they do. Dishonest is what they are. Dishonorable is who they are. Despicable is what they have become.
Posted by: cfbleachers at February 06, 2007 03:32 PM (V56h2)
3
I just deleted the overwhelming majority of comments on this post for being way off-topic.
Folks, don't feed the trolls. Trolls, if you must post at all, post comments relative to the subject at hand, or you will have your comments deleted and your IP banned without warning.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at February 06, 2007 09:25 PM (HcgFD)
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February 05, 2007
Rudi's In
So it seems like "America's Mayor," Rudy Giuliani, is one step closer to running for President:
In a sign that he's serious about running for the White House, the two-term mayor was filing a so-called "statement of candidacy" with the Federal Election Commission. In the process, he was eliminating the phrase "testing the waters" from earlier paperwork establishing his exploratory committee, said an official close to Giuliani's campaign.
AP is all over it at
Hot Air.
A lot of folks seem thrilled that Guiliani's throwing his hat in the ring, but I'm not one of them. His 9/11 leadership was extraordinary (compare his inspired performance to Ray Nagin's quivering collapse after Hurricane Katrina for juxtaposition), but his personal failures and his overtly liberal positions on a whole raft of issues leave me cold.
The only thing that Rudy brings to the table over our current President is his ability to
articulately explain why he won't enforce or borders while increasing the bloat of the federal government.
Factor in his pro-gun control views, and Guiliani's a Republican candidate not worth having... one of many.
Drafting Fred is starting to look like a better idea all the time.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
04:02 PM
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Glad to hear you say it; Rudy's a no-go for me as well as I'd like to see more of Fred.
Do you get the feeling the choice for Republican nominee is being made by the media, the pundits and the political class, everybody but the majority of the people themselves? Everything I read is a choice between Rudy, McCain or Romney with a smidge of Newt thrown in and I say no to every one.
Posted by: Cindi at February 05, 2007 04:52 PM (asVsU)
2
Hmmmm. I wonder if there is a reason that pretty much anyone in either party that the MSM pays attention to is a social liberal?
Posted by: Jeff at February 05, 2007 05:13 PM (yiMNP)
3
I'm thrilled to see Fred Thompson get some mention on a "major" blog. I was getting pretty discouraged with dropping links in comments on FR and all the blogs I visit and seeing no momentum.
Posted by: TBinSTL at February 05, 2007 07:40 PM (MSiPb)
4
While preferring Romney, if the choice is Rudy vs. all other Dems (perhaps excepting Richardson) it's a no-brainer. As long as the next President gets it right on the existential threats of jihadism, I'm willing to accept domestic policy deficiencies.
I'd rather be alive tomorrow to correct our mistakes of today rather than being dead tomorrow because of our mistakes today.
Posted by: bains at February 05, 2007 08:12 PM (L5o+I)
5
I absolutely agree with Bains. Feel free to support whoever you want in the primaries but I can't fathom a conservative that would refuse to vote and thereby let a Democrat win the White House.
I don't like McCain at all, but I'd vote for him in a heartbeat rather than see Hillary or Edwards as Commander-in-Chief.
Posted by: DRJ at February 05, 2007 08:47 PM (ko/9i)
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The latest in a bunch of losers to throw their hat in the ring, the real question is whether Rudy Tooti Guili will get enough early attention to qualify to pick the pocket so American taxpayers for a piece of the Federal Election Commission matching funds to help his campaign limp along to its inevitable collapse. Once his record on gun control, abortion, and gay rights is publicized enough, Rudy is toast.
Posted by: olddawg at February 06, 2007 09:40 PM (vWsI5)
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So olddawg, you'd rather see Hillary over Rudi as our next President? After all, Hillary is sooo much better than Rudi on gun control. ...dripping sarcasm.
Build the funeral pyre, it's time to finally sacrifice good, we've delusions of perfect.
Posted by: bains at February 07, 2007 09:10 PM (L5o+I)
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Surge
It has apparently. begun, and the rash of terrorist attacks over the past week, including the suicide truck bombing Saturday of a Baghdad marketplace frequented by both Sunni and Shia makes it appear, at least on the surface, that the terrorists were either attempting to get their last licks in before the expected crackdown before melting away, or the were planning to stay and fight. Of course, with different groups making different decisions (some reports indicate the Shia militias may go dormant; past experience tends to show that diehard al Qaeda elements prefer to seek their martyrdom), the attacks may have no more "meaning" than they typically do.
CNN reports on what appears to be the start of the much-debated "surge."
U.S. and Iraqi forces on Monday were preparing to launch a major security crackdown in Baghdad to curb sectarian bloodshed as a wave of bombings pushed the country's death toll to more than 1,000 in seven days.
Even as the security plan was being finalized, fresh violence continued to escalate the carnage with fresh explosions across the Iraq capital claiming more lives.
The city was still reeling from a massive suicide truck bomb on Saturday that detonated in a bustling market place, killing nearly 130 people in one of the worst attacks in the city since the U.S.-led invasion of 2003.
The United Nations says almost 17,000 people have died from fighting in the last year in Baghdad.
There was no official timeline for the launch of the new security plan, but U.S. Colonel Douglass Heckman, the senior adviser to the 9th Iraqi Army Division, said it was expected to begin shortly after a transition of military control in the city.
"Officially the Baghdad Operational Command takes over tomorrow, so the expectation is that the plan will be implemented soon thereafter, very soon thereafter," he said, according to The Associated Press.
Two Iraqi newspapers have reported the operation, the third attempt since May 2006 to pacify the capital, would begin Monday.
Heckman said thousands of U.S. and Iraqi reinforcements already were in place for the neighborhood-by-neighborhood sweep to clamp off the violence by Sunni insurgents and Shiite militia, AP said.
Greyhawk has a round-up at
Mudville Gazette that suggests the surge is starting today, and that a Brigade Combat Team of the 82nd Airborne is already deployed in Baghdad as part of the first wave of the surge.
Back in the States, our feckless Senators, led by the craven John Warner, (R-Va.), and Carl Levin, (D-Mich.), are now set to attempt to debate their gutless non-binding opposition to the surge. This is especially disgusting when you take into account that these senators already know (or should know) that U.S. and Iraqi units are already engaging.
What moral cowardice it takes to debate a "non-binding resolution" which has no responsibility associated with it. What moral turpitude to attempt to undercut a battle already being joined.
I don't expect much from our Senators, but I do expect them to have enough courage to either issue forth law, or shut up. A non-binding resolution is the mark of a political coward; it means nothing, stands for nothing, and merely serves to provide them "wiggle-room" in either direction depending on the outcome of the battle.
Michael Yon, currently in Iraq spoke about the surge on yesterday's
The Glenn and Helen Show. He said it will be like "unlike anything we've seen before."
Watch, and we will see. At this point, with so much of the public against the war, the future of our involvement in Iraq depends on the outcome.
Update: I just confirmation from a source in Baghdad. The "surge" started today, and is underway.
Update: I just called MNSTC-I PAO LTC Kevin Buckingham to get official word on the surge, and "the offical word" is that Iraqi Prime Minister Nuri al-Maliki will release the official word of when the surge starts.
We do know that Iraqi forces already establishing checkpoints
throughout five districts, and we know it was Iraqi soldiers (with U.S. forces in support) that
killed Khadhim al-Hamadani, a top al-Sadr official in the Medhi Army, in a raid last night.
Readers should keep in mind that the official, announced start and end dates of military operations are not always the same as the actual start and end dates.
According to
al Sabaah, battalions of the Iraqi 3rd, 5th and 7th Divisions, along with Interior Minsitry commando units, are currently being deployed.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
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Trackbacked by The Thunder Run - Web Reconnaissance for 02/05/2007
A short recon of what’s out there that might draw your attention.
Posted by: David M at February 05, 2007 11:10 AM (kNjJk)
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Warner and Levin can rot in hell. Two seditious pieces of crap!!!!!!!!!!!!
Posted by: Ed Stanowicz at February 05, 2007 11:47 AM (WYry2)
3
Kill them all and let Allah sort them out.
Posted by: olddawg at February 06, 2007 09:42 PM (vWsI5)
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Measuring Bias
Ace of Spades found an interesting article at Slate over the weekend about a series of online bias tests called the Implicit Association Test, or IAT, with the most popular one being the race IAT, to judges your biases (prejudices) based upon timed responses to paired words and images.
It works like this:
In the test's most popular version, the Race IAT, subjects are shown a computer screen and asked to match positive words (love, wonderful, peace) or negative words (evil, horrible, failure) with faces of African-Americans or whites. Their responses are timed. If you tend to associate African-Americans with "bad" concepts, it will take you longer to group black faces with "good" concepts because you perceive them as incompatible. If you're consistently quicker at connecting positive words with whites and slower at connecting positive words with blacks—or quicker at connecting negative words with blacks and slower at connecting negative words with whites—you have an implicit bias for white faces over those of African-Americans. In other words, the time it takes you to pair the faces and words yields an empirical measure of your attitudes. (Click here for a more detailed description of the test.)
The elegance of Banaji's test is that it doesn't let you lie. What's being measured is merely the speed of each response. You might hate the idea of having a bias against African-Americans, but if it takes you significantly longer to group black faces with good concepts, there's no way you can hide it. You can't pretend to connect words and images faster any more than a sprinter can pretend to run faster. And you won't significantly change your score if you deliberately try to slow down your white = good and black = bad pairings.
Banaji, now a social psychologist at Harvard, has found that 88 percent of the white subjects who take her test show some bias against blacks. The majority of all subjects also test anti-gay, anti-elderly, and anti-Arab Muslim. Many people also exhibit bias against their own group: About half of blacks test anti-black; 36 percent of Arab Muslims test anti-Arab Muslim; and 38 percent of gays show an automatic preference for heterosexuals.
Sounds interesting, no? A test that won't let you lie, even to yourself. I'd like to see how
CY readers fare on this, so if you have the time (about 10-15 minutes), take the test at
this link (follow the link on this page to the "Race IAT."
Then post your age, race, and state where you grew up, along with your results in the comments. I've already taken it, and I'll post a screen capture of my results page tonight.
Also tell me if your results surprised you, or if they were about what you thought they would be.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
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Age=48
Race=white
State=OH
Results:
Your data suggest a strong automatic preference for European American compared to African American.
I wasn't surprised at all.
Posted by: buckeyefan at February 05, 2007 09:46 AM (bVKWW)
2
Age = 40
Race = white
State = Michigan
Little to no automatic preference between African American or European American.
Posted by: Mikey NTH at February 05, 2007 10:13 AM (O9Cc8)
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Age=51
Race=White
State=Virginia
Results:
Your data suggest a strong automatic preference for European American compared to African American.
Results about what I expected, considering I'm a redneck cracker honky.
Posted by: SicSemperTyrannus at February 05, 2007 10:13 AM (nFSnk)
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Age = 66
State = Washington
Race = white
Little to no automatic preference between African American or European American.
I did have some suspicions about the devisors of the test itself. Portraying concepts as simply "good" or "bad" - and then running the same exercise on photos of strangers - seems a damn crude measurement of whatever they're after.
And considering that just about every social science department in the country is dominated by the groupthink that votes for racial preferences and lives by the religion of PC - which could largely be described as the political movement to disestablish or villainize the white male (formerly known as WASPS, before the PC purveyors wised up, separated out the women, and used murkier terminology to cultivate their funding Foundations) - one would think that said devisors would be happy to come up with an oh-so-neutral test that 'proved' that them honkies is racists after all.
Posted by: Insufficiently Sensitive at February 05, 2007 11:08 AM (0ZR4z)
5
Age = 44
Race = white
State = Illinois
Little to no automatic preference between African American or European American.
And I'm a hard-headed conservative.
Posted by: Steve at February 05, 2007 02:11 PM (orluU)
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Age = 50
Race = White
State = NY
Little to no automatic preference between African American or European American.
-----
I think I noted strong conservative but I might have checked moderate c. I was disappointed there wasn't a libertarian option.
Took the religion test, too, but first and came up with the same classification. Too bad they don't have several of that category. I would have liked to have done a Shinto v the world one.
Hey, I see I am not the oldest fogy to frequent here ... hmm, maybe it's time for me to take the young v old test to see which group they consider me in.
Posted by: Dusty at February 05, 2007 04:42 PM (GJLeQ)
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Isufficiently Sensitive, somehow I think they might smoke your computer after you finish the Sociologist IAT, or the Psychologist IAT. Which, I suppose, is why they don't include those in the choices.
Posted by: Dusty at February 05, 2007 04:48 PM (GJLeQ)
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Nothing. I do not associate anything with people, only with their actions. This tests is stupid. Almost everyone wants to associate with their own kind, and that does not, necessarily, show bias.
Posted by: Len at February 05, 2007 05:41 PM (Hm7dh)
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This test, its uses, and its hidden surprises were discussed in detail in the book Blink by Malcolm Gladwell. Len's dismissal of the idea is not surprising, but he misses the whole point of the thing.
Posted by: Doc Washboard at February 06, 2007 09:08 AM (6tV2n)
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Come on Doc, tell us the surprises. Don't make me go read.
Hey, CY, where's your results, you baiting hack of a blogger?! Skip the screen cap, just type the info.
Posted by: Dusty at February 06, 2007 10:29 AM (GJLeQ)
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Darn, did you post the results there before I wrote the last comment?
Posted by: Dusty at February 06, 2007 11:32 AM (GJLeQ)
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Darn, did you post the results there before I wrote the last comment?
About 8:45 AM.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at February 06, 2007 12:06 PM (g5Nba)
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My bad. I apologize though I'll also note that I didn't notice the "Read More ..." that was created by your adding the results to your post. I was looking for an update to the number of comments.
Not to nit pick, but I think your "part of the 12-percent of whites that have no bias against blacks" should be "29%". It seems to me even the "Little" in "Little to no automatic preference between African American or European American" could swing either way but is not measureable to a standard level of confidence to note which direction.
BTW, since I don't comment often, I ought to note here that I think you're doing a heck of a job here, CY.
Posted by: Dusty at February 06, 2007 03:05 PM (GJLeQ)
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It seems to me it could have as much to do with an individuals language patterns and words you are accustomed to using or not. Timing delays could be related to comprehension.
Posted by: lonetown at February 07, 2007 07:04 AM (KdCoY)
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Got ya, CY. A random coincidence of 12%'s between the two, helped by the fact you were in the 12%.
But the oddity, and the high percentage in the Slate article did cause me to look into it further. In their FAQ #9 they had this:
"Moreover, if the IAT result represented an ingroup preference exclusively, then Black Americans should show for their group the same level of automatic preference. We know that that is not the case. 50% of Black Americans show automatic Black preference, but the remaining half show an automatic White preference. We conclude from such data that the IAT preference is some combination of an automatic preference for one’s own, moderated by what one’s learns is regarded to be “good” in the larger culture."
It surprised me to see it reported as a 50-50 breakdown. It seems to me, this would mean the IAT Project harbors results that do not allow for the "Little or no" category. I wonder why that is and have asked them.
Posted by: Dusty at February 07, 2007 03:19 PM (GJLeQ)
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February 02, 2007
Global Warming: The Un-Science of Fear
Long before al Gore invented the Internet, way back in 1989-90, I was an undergraduate taking a series of geology classes, and I liked them well enough that I gave serious thought to making that branch of science my vocation.
Times and majors changed, but I can still recall the long view of the earth's climate over the course of history, and so when I hear politicians like Barbara Boxer
declare "The scientific debate is over," on global warming, then I know that I am hearing the words of someone scientifically incurious, politically reactionary, and/or hopelessly gullible.
The debate isn't over. For what it is worth, most of the "debate" is simply invalid. Junk science. Hype.
Humankind has very little or nothing to do with climate change, a fact that that a
group of idiots assembled in Paris can't quite seem to grasp.
Let me say it very slowly: Global warming is real, but mankind has little or nothing to do with it, and it is a transitory state.
Here's a little
reality check for Al Gore:
Approximately 99.72% of the "greenhouse effect" is due to natural causes -- mostly water vapor and traces of other gases, which we can do nothing at all about. Eliminating human activity altogether would have little impact on climate change.
The simple fact of the matter is that global warming began 18,000 years ago as we started leaving the Pleistocene Ice Age. We are currently on the tail end of a 20,000-year interglacial period, and do you know what that means?
If millions of years of history can be our guide—and it should—
we are within a few hundred years of entering a new ice age.
Global warming advocates attempt to say that global warming can be tied to an increase of greenhouse gases they tie to the Industrial Revolution. They're confusing proximation with causation. Just because things occur at the same time doesn't mean they are related... unless, of course, you
really want to believe that on this day in 1971, a groundhog seeing his shadow somehow helped the success of Idi Amin's coup in Uganda. Good luck with that.
No, the Industrial Revolution coincided with global warming, but it didn't cause it. It was merely part of a cycle already millions of years older than mankind itself.
Baby Step:

Big Picture:

(both charts from
here, which will decode them for you quite nicely.)
The "science" you see from proponents of the idea that humans are behind global warming are guilty of finding precisely what they were looking for, not of promoting responsible science.
What causes global warming? Read the link above, but if your eyes start to glaze over, Jules Crittenden's take
isn't far off:
Re Earth. It gets hot. It gets cold. This is what Earth does. No one knows why. Even the scientists who say its getting hot because of human activity, when pressed, have to admit it might be only heating up at a greater rate because of human activity, but even then, no one can really say for sure.
It's hotter now than it's been since the time of Jesus. What that means is, 2,000 years ago, the Earth was as hot as it is now. I'm blaming Iron Age farming practices and smelting for that New Testament uptick. Or maybe it was the righteous fire and burning passion of the age … have to go back and have another look at the ice cores. Might find some particles of faith.
By the 14th century, it was wicked cold. And I do mean wicked. Like, medieval cold. Even all those witch burnings had no effect. But not as cold as it was 10,000 years ago. We're really only just starting to warm up from that. We have a long way to go before it is as warm as it was 66 million years ago, you know, Everglades in Montana warm.
All the time in between, I'm fuzzy on the temps. But I'm going to take a wild guess. Warm, cold, warm, cold, warm, cold. You have a water view? Look out. It might come through your window. Never know. Things happen.
You would think that the
Global Warming Evangelicals would have a handle on the way-cool existentialism of this, considering some are actually poets instead of scientists, but perhaps we overestimate how good they are at being poets, as well.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
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Back when I was a wee lad, I learned that my birthplace, Long Island, NY, was created when the glaciers receded at the end of the Ice Age. Somehow, since then, I haven't been worried much about global warming.
Posted by: BohicaTwentyTwo at February 02, 2007 04:24 PM (oC8nQ)
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Oh and what I said MUST be true because Wiki says so.
Posted by: BohicaTwentyTwo at February 02, 2007 04:42 PM (oC8nQ)
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What did cause the extreme warming 20,000 years ago?
When humans are deemed to be primarily responsible and the Sun is not given credit for the current warming trend, I see the "science" as political activism and "junk" science.
The "agreement" (Kyoto) to lower greenhouse gasses by allowing huge increases by some countries, countered by huge decreases by other countries seems to me to say that the current levels are fine - the only bad thing about them is who gets to make the emissions. Again, "junk" science.
What caused the warming that brought us so far out of the last ice age? Until it can be proven that it was primarily due to human activity, I will believe that the trend is caused more by nature than by man.
Posted by: SouthernRoots at February 02, 2007 04:55 PM (EsOdX)
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I guess that Pathfinder, Spirit & Opportunity are responsible for global warming... on Mars.
http://www.heartland.org/Article.cfm?artId=17977
Posted by: Jeff at February 02, 2007 06:01 PM (yiMNP)
5
What would you accept as proof that it is actually occurring? Is there any set of facts/evidence/studies which would convince you? Or do you simply believe that human caused global warming is not possible?
Posted by: anonymous at February 02, 2007 06:03 PM (lWy70)
6
What would you accept as proof that it is actually occurring?
Ummm, he's not disputing that its occurring you freaking retard. He's disputing what is causing it.
What caused the ice age 20,000 years ago to end? I'm fairly certain it wasn't all the SUV's the cavemen were tooling around in.
Posted by: Purple Avenger at February 02, 2007 06:25 PM (4vmN2)
7
Ummm, he's not disputing that its occurring you freaking retard. He's disputing what is causing it.
Why the namecalling? I see that I constructed my sentences poorly there. I was talking about 'human-caused' warming as I stated in the last sentence. I should have said it that way in the first sentence, also.
I just want to know what it would take to convince a skeptic? It seems that there is no amount of science that would convince them.
Posted by: anonymous at February 02, 2007 06:55 PM (lWy70)
8
"what it would take to convince a skeptic?"
How about a significant increase, say 10 degrees, not .10 or 1.0, in decadal average global temperatures since 1900? Otherwise, all we're seeing is natural variability.
The work that has been done with proxy records before 1850 is divination, not science, and certainly not acceptable or credible in the math or statistics professions.
Yes, it's getting warmer, it's natural, something to do with that burning ball of gas that lights up the sky every day. Yes, humans are generating carbon dioxide in several different ways. But for those who missed 5th grade science class, plant matter absorbs carbon dioxide.
It's not a closed system, several variables are involved. Proximation is not causation!
Posted by: Junk Science Skeptic at February 02, 2007 09:09 PM (Fnr44)
9
I just want to know what it would take to convince a skeptic? It seems that there is no amount of science that would convince them.
Hey, if people want to propose it as a theory and test it in the real world, no problem. But I think if you are going to ask some countries to act against the economic welfare of its citizens while others get a pass, the proof would have to be at least clear and convincing, not merely "sounds good to me."
When I was in school, the same "experts" were predicting imminent global cooling and catastrophic overpopulation, so you can put me in the skeptic column if all we have are "expert opinions."
Posted by: capitano at February 02, 2007 09:27 PM (+NO33)
10
You may want to consider reading a science book or going down to the science department at your local university and asking members of the faculty for their opinions. Being educated helps when you want to comment on a process as complex as thermodynamics within the earth's atmosphere.
Your statistic that you quote in reference to Al Gore, is completely erroneous. Global warming potential does not factor in water vapor since it is a reflex to the warming and not a forcing upon it. It is the anthropogenic greenhouses gases that allow for more water vapor in the atmosphere. If you simply added water vapor, it would return to its equilibrium.
And yes, while 100% certainty on this issue, and indeed the majority of science, is rarely attained, human activity has been demonstrated to be the likeliest explanation to the sharp modern increase in average global temperature.
Posted by: What? at February 02, 2007 10:11 PM (dIO5O)
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It seems that there is no amount of science that would convince them.
Models are NOT "science", they are speculation based on incomplete data of poorly understood phenomenon.
Cosmic epicycles were a model. They were wrong.
Mars, Pluto etc are all warming too. Some dramatically more than earth. Pluto is up like 15 or 20 degrees recently.
The mars polar ice caps are vanishing.
And you want me to believe that whatever is causing THAT stuff, is NOT having any major effects on earth?
Right.
Posted by: Purple Avenger at February 02, 2007 11:41 PM (4vmN2)
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Let me expand on what my skepticism is based upon. I'm an engineer with an advanced degree - I'm not a moron.
I'm also INTIMATELY familiar with the IEEE 754 floating point standard and ALL its intricacies. Rounding, chop, precision control, denormalization, all that gory technical stuff that can cause results to vary.
I've also worked on the guts of the floating point libraries and display formatting code for a major compiler vendor(Borland) so I'm also intimately familiar with how floating point results get formatted - and how print formatted results can vary from actual data.
Want to convince me? Show me the source for the models and let me convince myself that they are doing what they claim and not making some silent error that gets propagated through all the results because floating point exceptions were masked(the default behavior on almost all compilers), or chop mode was used when a rounding mode should have been used, etc etc.
Programs are full of bugs. I have no reason to believe these models would be any different.
Scientists are not hardware geeks intimately familiar with the guts of floating point implementations. They use that stuff like a kitchen appliance most of the time and just trust that the tool's results are correct. Engineers know better - we know that stuff has its limitations.
Posted by: Purple Avenger at February 02, 2007 11:58 PM (4vmN2)
13
That's good stuff, Purple Avenger. You know about floating point calculations and feel that for some reason that somehow imparts expertise in a field you know nothing about. Classic enginerdery.
Posted by: Moops at February 03, 2007 01:42 AM (oaVEv)
14
Long before al Gore invented the Internet, way back in 1989-90
Cool, using a gibe that's long since been debunked, and misunderstanding it to boot, unless you think that 1989-1990 was "long before" the High Performance Computing and Communication Act of 1991.
Posted by: Mike at February 03, 2007 02:04 AM (BSCnr)
15
"Models are NOT "science""
Actually, all scientific accounts are models of natural processes. If you don't understand that, we have a problem.
Let's take an example: the Ptolemic model you speak of was supplanted by a more accurate (but still incomplete) Copernican *model*. Our current accounts of the operations of the solar system, including orbits, are also composed of models.
Posted by: Daniel Nexon at February 03, 2007 07:59 AM (QU4xQ)
16
You may want to consider reading a science book or going down to the science department at your local university and asking members of the faculty for their opinions. Being educated helps when you want to comment on a process as complex as thermodynamics within the earth's atmosphere.
...
And yes, while 100% certainty on this issue, and indeed the majority of science, is rarely attained, human activity has been demonstrated to be the likeliest explanation to the sharp modern increase in average global temperature.
Some of us scientists are educated enough to realize the difference between a correlation and a cause-effect relationship. Data of such a small change over 150 years says very, very little about what causes global warming, especially when you consider the much, much longer history of the world. While it is possible humans are making matters worse, there is no evidence we are anywhere near the major factor in the current warming.
Someone asked what it takes to convince a skeptic. If you are asking about a skeptical scientist, it takes evidence. On the other hand, if you just want them to shut up, I think he ever popular totalitarian tactics (e.g., the current media blitz and the demonization of anyone who disagrees with the party line) holds promise for possible short term success. Historically it has worked for short periods of time.
Posted by: anonymous scientist at February 03, 2007 09:43 AM (O8pjo)
17
Actually, all scientific accounts are models of natural processes.
There's a difference between a model and the science that makes it a valid scientific model. Just because I can make a model of something does not mean I have done any science. As you say, "If you don't understand that, we have a problem."
Posted by: anonymous scientist at February 03, 2007 09:46 AM (O8pjo)
18
That's good stuff, Purple Avenger. You know about floating point calculations and feel that for some reason that somehow imparts expertise in a field you know nothing about. Classic enginerdery.
Purple avenger claims expertise in computer models. While I think his credentials are not the most impressive, they are at least relevant to the rest of his post.
Posted by: anonymous scientist at February 03, 2007 09:49 AM (O8pjo)
19
Monte Hieb and Harrison Hieb.
Who the hell are these guys that created the website you cite as expertise, and what is their credibility? I mean, you're basing your claims on global warming on a site that depends on some random website hosting starting at $14/month. Seriously?
Posted by: ariadne at February 03, 2007 09:56 AM (AmSUy)
20
Here was my question: What would you accept as proof that it is actually occurring? Is there any set of facts/evidence/studies which would convince you?
So far here are the responses which at least sorta kinda answer the question:
How about a significant increase, say 10 degrees, not .10 or 1.0, in decadal average global temperatures since 1900? Otherwise, all we're seeing is natural variability.
How did you decide on 10 degrees as the threshold of significance? It seems to me that it there were a 10 degree increase it would be already be a global catastrophe. I believe the difference between today and an ice age is like 5 degrees C, as seen here: http://vathena.arc.nasa.gov/curric/land/global/tchga1.gif
Want to convince me? Show me the source for the models and let me convince myself that they are doing what they claim and not making some silent error that gets propagated through all the results because floating point exceptions were masked(the default behavior on almost all compilers), or chop mode was used when a rounding mode should have been used, etc etc.
Great! Get yourself some scientific journals and get reading. With your expertise you may help to sharpen the quality of climate science. Let us know what you find.
But I have a question. If the models are routinely flawed by a masked floating point exceptions, would they all err in the same direction? It seems to me that such errors would be more or less random and would cause some models to overstate warming and others to understate it, but it seems that most models agree. Also, I would expect that the people who run the world's largest supercomputers (which are used to calculate the climate models) would also be intimately familiar with floating point exceptions, etc.
Posted by: anonymous at February 03, 2007 10:05 AM (lWy70)
21
Someone asked what it takes to convince a skeptic. If you are asking about a skeptical scientist, it takes evidence.
What evidence do you want? That's what I'm trying to find out.
Posted by: anonymous at February 03, 2007 10:09 AM (lWy70)
22
I think what skeptics of global warming are saying is tha modeling, while useful, should not be the primary support of a theory as it overwhelmingly is in global warming hysteria, especially as the data being used to make these models has not been scientifically proven to be relevant.
Perhaps I am guilty of showing my biases towards the branch of science I understand best, but the geological record certainly seems to point to global warming and cooling to be very natural, and even roughly predictable in both time and duration. Cycles of global warming and cooling have been occurring for hundreds of millions of years...when humans weren't around.
Now the same alarmists that 20 years ago were shrieking about humans causing global cooling using junk science to feed research grants, have now reversed themselves 180-degrees to say oops, we got it completely wrong--the opposite in fact--but we're going to use similar methods to reach opposite conclusions, so trust us this time, okay?
Sorry.
We've heard this con before.
As for the web site linked to above, I've got a simple channels for the Global Warming Evangelicals: don't gripe about who put up the site, or how much it costs to host, find valid evidence to show where specific claims made there are scientifically invalid. I'll be very impressed if you can do it.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at February 03, 2007 10:13 AM (HcgFD)
23
But I have a question. If the models are routinely flawed by a masked floating point exceptions, would they all err in the same direction? It seems to me that such errors would be more or less random and would cause some models to overstate warming and others to understate it, but it seems that most models agree.
Or do all the models that disagree get thrown out as "invalid data"? I have no proof that this is the case, but it has happened before in various scientific research, and since human nature hasn't changed, it can happen again. Particularly with all the money that is involved.
Posted by: MikeM at February 03, 2007 10:51 AM (vpavG)
24
Or do all the models that disagree get thrown out as "invalid data"?
So you agree that the errors would be random, but then say they must be throwing away 'invalid data'? In that case you are saying that maybe half of all such modelling data is thrown out because the scientists call it invalid?
Even if that was true, the studies would state clearly that they had discarded certain data and the justification for that action. Otherwise, it would be scientific fraud.
I have no proof that this is the case, but it has happened before in various scientific research,
Care to link to some examples for me?
Posted by: anonymous at February 03, 2007 11:50 AM (lWy70)
25
You know about floating point calculations and feel that for some reason that somehow imparts expertise in a field you know nothing about.
Unless those models are made of clay and string, how the calculations are performed is kinda relevant.
I've never written a significant program that didn't have some sort of bug(s) in it somewhere.
Show me the code. That they keep these supposed models largely secret is very telling. Either the code is so wretchedly designed and full of bugs they'd be embarrassed showing it, or its so obviously rigged they'd be accused of fraud if they did.
Which is it?
Posted by: Purple Avenger at February 03, 2007 12:18 PM (4vmN2)
26
Actually, all scientific accounts are models of natural processes. If you don't understand that, we have a problem.
Oh, I understand this very well. What you're really saying is that this whole affair is essentially "faith based". You have faith that these models are the last, final, definitive, be all end all - and you're willing to have to world spend TRILLIONS of dollars based on that "faith".
Suppose they turn out to be 100% dead wrong like epicycles were? There will be no mulligans here. You can't un-spend trillions of bucks spent on a snipe hunt. What then? Does the rest of the world get to pelt you with rotten fruit? Seize all your assets as compensation? A piper will be paid if all this is badly wrong.
Why not get it right? Drop the faith crap.
Posted by: Purple Avenger at February 03, 2007 12:27 PM (4vmN2)
27
Here's one.
http://www.gfdl.noaa.gov/~fms/
You can download the code and everything. Go check it out and tell us how the evil liberals are using rounding errors to take away your SUV.
Posted by: Moops at February 03, 2007 01:01 PM (rnVsg)
28
Show me the code. That they keep these supposed models largely secret is very telling.
I found these with a quick google for 'climate modelling source code'. There are many other examples.
Download 4x3 Atmosphere-Ocean Model Code and Input Files
http://aom.giss.nasa.gov/code4x3.html
Los Alamos Climate Ocean and Sea Ice Modeling “POP” (parallel oceans program)
Website here: http://climate.lanl.gov/Models/POP/
Download here: http://climate.lanl.gov/Models/POP/POP_2.0.1.tar.Z
FMS (flexible modeling system)
http://www.gfdl.noaa.gov/~fms/
GDFL source code respository:
https://fms.gfdl.noaa.gov/
Posted by: anonymous at February 03, 2007 01:03 PM (lWy70)
29
I don't own an SUV. I drive a VW diesel that get over 50mpg
Posted by: Purple Avenger at February 03, 2007 01:07 PM (4vmN2)
30
The following software packages are limited access. You may request access, but this does not guarantee approval. In order to request access, you must be register and be logged in.
Heh, very "open" process they got there. What are they hiding?
Posted by: Purple Avenger at February 03, 2007 01:17 PM (4vmN2)
31
I have now had my fill of a$$holes who think they understand science.
I've had my fill of jackasses who think computers always deliver the results people expect from them.
Had I not spent a significant part of my career working around all sorts of hardware and software errata I might have believed it too.
Posted by: Purple Avenger at February 03, 2007 01:20 PM (4vmN2)
32
I'm not a computer code geek but I use computational fluid dynamics and finite element stress analysis pretty regular.
These engineering tools have come a long way but at best, it's an approximate solution to give insight, not exact answers. All these models spit out results based on user-input boundary conditions and simplifying assumptions. That's a big key - how accurate is the user-input. The other big key is the accuracy of the math behind the model.
Trying to model the whole freaking planet is incredibly complex. It's fantasy, in my opinion, to expect results that predict a tiny temp rise over 100 yrs. to be accurate. But fantasy is all the politicians require to push an agenda and gain power. That's all this is about. It's not about science.
Posted by: Lewis at February 03, 2007 02:07 PM (GPDvZ)
33
Someone asked what it takes to convince a skeptic. If you are asking about a skeptical scientist, it takes evidence.
What evidence do you want? That's what I'm trying to find out.
Posted by anonymous at February 3, 2007 10:09 AM
Clearly explain to me what caused the global warming that ended the last ice age. Then clearly explain to me why the current warming trend doesn't have the same cause and how humans are the significant cause of this warming trend.
Scientists tell us that the area I live in was once under a couple thousand feet of ice. They tell us that many of the lakes we have were carved by the glaciers when they retreated.
That was one heck of a warming trend and I am pretty sure that humans had zero contribution to it. In the current trend, why is increased radiation from the sun not the most significant factor?
What do our observation posts outside the atmosphere tell us about increased solar radiation?
Also, during the days of dinosaurs, weren't the CO2 levels higher than today? Weren't worldwide temperatures higher than today? Why would a return to some of those conditions be "catastrophic"?
This whole global warming "debate" is like constant Hollywood disaster movie trailers. Why the hype? Is "disaster hype" a component of the scientific method? Is speculation reported as fact a component of the scientific method? Are the computer models used for global warming the same ones that incorrectly predicted 2006's hurricane season? Are they similar to the ones that we use to predict our local weather two weeks in advance so accurately?
Is the scientific method a process that requires stifling of contradictory ideas?
Posted by: SouthernRoots at February 03, 2007 02:41 PM (EsOdX)
34
I just pulled down the POP_2.0.1 program and scoped it out.
All Fortran-90, which is OK, but as I suspected, there is no attempt whatsoever to do any rounding/chop control/compensation on results to limit rounding errors between passes of the sim. The thing takes compiler defaults for all floating point settings which can allow rounding errors to grow unchecked.
Is this significant? I don't know. It is however a fundamental design flaw in the sim that could cause results to drift as the sim generations progress.
Posted by: Purple Avenger at February 03, 2007 02:55 PM (4vmN2)
35
I had this argument not too long ago. A survey of the scientific literature over the last couple of years found 900+ papers supporting man-made global warming and zero against. The typical reply is that they academics are biased or what have you. Out of the scientists that wrote these papers there have to be some mavericks who are honest with themselves with the evidence. You all are supporting a case that is completely unfounded in the scientific literature.
I've worked on compilers (.NET) and other aspects of computers. I don't see how that gives me the slightest insight into global warming.
Posted by: Ted Nixon at February 03, 2007 03:56 PM (oGZ1x)
36
Clearly explain to me what caused the global warming that ended the last ice age. Then clearly explain to me why the current warming trend doesn't have the same cause and how humans are the significant cause of this warming trend.
...
That was one heck of a warming trend and I am pretty sure that humans had zero contribution to it. In the current trend, why is increased radiation from the sun not the most significant factor?
If you read the science, there are plenty of explanations about this. Your remarks suggest that you have never done any reading on this.
Initially, it is nice to see that people are finally accepting that global warming is occurring, and focusing on the secondary issue of the extent to which human activity is causing it, and what might be done about it.
To return to your questions, here is a link to a good article summarizing the science as to a lot of these questions. First note that ice age epochs (like the last two million years of ice ebbing and flowing many times) are believed to be rare in earth history. No one knows for sure why we are currently in such an era. The last one is believed to be 300,000,000 years ago. One guess (and that is all it is) is an increase in galactic dust and gas that partially diminshes the amount of solar radiation that earth receives -- the solar system is passing through a greater density in recent times. This would explain the randomness of ice age epochs separated by long periods without them.
Second, the variations over the last million years are believed to be primarily explained by the Milankovitch theory -- variations in earth's climate induced by subtle variations in its orbit (and the differing impact of these changes in sunlight between northern hemisphere and southern hemisphere due to skewed distributions of landmasses in the two hemispheres). That ended the last ice age. That same cycle says that we should be headed into an era of greater cooling -- the current warm trend runs against the evidence of known natural causes in climate fluctuations in recent times.
Sun radiation has been carefully measured for enough time to eliminate it as a likely cause -- read the articles. It is believed to vary over time and have some role in climate change, but this is uncertain. Some attribute the little ice age to a variation in sun output, but this is still just speculation (but based on an observed oddity of sunspots basically disappearing for a long time). No really knows why there was a cold snap for few hundred years -- some say that the cold is actually more of the norm, and what has to be explained is the warming trends on each end of the little ice age. No one can define "normal."
The science that links CO2 to a likely increase in global temperatures is pretty straight forward. And CO2 is higher now than at any time for the last 120,000, with a very rapid increase over the last 200 years. Coincidentally, there is a spike in temperatures in the same time period.
There is no other observed natural phenomena that explains the temperature spike as readily as the CO2 spike, and there is no non-human phenomena that explains the CO2 spike. Scientists therefore draw the conclusion that human activity is the best explanantion for ongoing global warming.
You can deny it, but science does not support your position. It does not absolutely prove that it is human caused, but there is no competing theory with much credibility.
And yes, scientists believe that CO2 concentrations were much much higher in the time of dinosaurs (like 3 or 4 times higher) and the climate much warmer. Which may explain why dinosaur remains are found in strata believed to be in polar regions. And why most of the present day Mississippi Valley region of the North American continent was under water -- yes, North Dakota had beach front property.
Posted by: dmbeaster at February 03, 2007 04:12 PM (DFrYP)
37
So, skeptics, what is your hypothesis for explaining the undisputed fact that the entire field of professional climatologists, with virtually no exceptions, either supports the IPCC or finnds it too cautious? Are they ALL a) anticapitalist Luddites trying to destroy the economy, or b) just trying to hustle up more grant money (they could get a lot more from Exxon-Mobil, by the way)?
Gimme a break!
Posted by: Invigilator at February 03, 2007 04:44 PM (/tUod)
38
"How about a significant increase, say 10 degrees, not .10 or 1.0, in decadal average global temperatures since 1900? Otherwise, all we're seeing is natural variability."
"How did you decide on 10 degrees as the threshold of significance? It seems to me that it there were a 10 degree increase it would be already be a global catastrophe."
While I'd like to say it was a random choice, sort of like the warmists using tree rings from only one tree on the entire planet as their data source for a few years of their "historical" temperature record, but no, there actually was some thought behind the choice.
The temperature records prior to 1970 simply aren't accurate to within one degree. And terrestrial measurements since then aren't much better.
By virtually all accounts, all we've seen since industrialization is one degree per century, well within the proven range of natural variability. Also, given the accuracy of the source data, one degree means nothing.
So, while the change attributed to industrialization may not need to be an entire order of magnitude (10 degrees vs. 1 degree) higher, it absolutely must stand out above the uncertainty of the data, and also must stand out above natural variability to support the claim that industrialization is even partly responsible for current temperature levels.
Several debunkings of the "hockey stick" have shown that recent changes are neither sudden nor dramatic, nor unprecedented.
Lacking any evidence that even suggests past causation, all the warmists are left with are their models.
In real life, the best of these models can't make an accurate forecast to within 5 degrees, for a localized region, over a period of maybe 72 hours.
So what would cause a reasonable person to believe these models can accurately predict average global temperature to within 2-3 degrees for 100 years into the future?
Posted by: Junk Science Skeptic at February 03, 2007 05:14 PM (Fnr44)
39
b) just trying to hustle up more grant money.
No warming = no grants = no food. Sounds like the ultimate motivation to me. "Professional" climatologists gotta eat, don't they?
P.S. I hereby dispute the claim that all climatologists support the IPCC. So much for undisputed.
Please supply a complete list of all of the world's climatologists along with their sworn support of the IPCC if you're claiming that as a fact.
Posted by: Junk Science Skeptic at February 03, 2007 05:26 PM (Fnr44)
40
It doesn't take a computer / math geek to figure out that without the proper floating point calculations the whole thing will be wrong. Especially when we're talking fractions of a percent be significant.
For those you are having trouble grasping what Purple is saying here's a very simplified example.
Lets say they're only rounding out two decimal places. If the degree shift calculation requires several steps then there's potential for significant number shifting:
.0145 = .015 when rounded: 100 * .015 = 1.50.
.013444445 = .014 when rounded * 100 = 1.40.
Added together = 2.90.
Whereas with no rounding:
.0145 * 100 = 1.45
.013444445 * 100 = 1.3444445
Added together = 2.7944445
Which gives you a variance of: 3.6398%
When you're looking at a scientific approach that type of variance is huge. Which is why the floating point computation is extremely important. Which from what I gather is what Purple was saying.
The sample size, as anyone whose taken a entry level statistics class could tell you, is way too small if they're only going back 100 or even 1,000 years. Again an example for those who can't see it.
Lets say they pull the last 100 years and compute a temperature increase of 1 degree or a 1% increase. But when we look back at 101 - 110 years ago it was 1.1 Degrees cooler than normal. This would cancel out the 1 degree / percent increase, thereby negating the theory.
What C.Y. s explaining in his post is that geographical evidence shows that over time the earth has gone through many increases and decreases of average temperature, without the influence of man.
In closing I'd like to ask the global warming and environmental experts where my record breaking Hurricane season was last year? The oceans were almost boiling and the increased temperature was going to cause storms that would wipe out the east coast.
Now if you'll excuse me it's kind of chilly out side, I'm going to go burn some dead dinosaurs in my SUV with hopes that I'll raise the temperature a bit.
Posted by: phin at February 03, 2007 05:56 PM (C+FWT)
41
Not all scientists agree with the human induced global warming via carbon emmisions "theory". And again I emphasize the extreme difficulty in developing an accurate mathematical model of the earth's climate. There's a hugh number of complex input variables and many, many simplifying assumptions that must be made. Scientists aren't near as smart as some think they are.
Then there's the practical side. We generate power and travel swiftly because of carbon emmissions. It's the foundation of our modern society. Who's going to volunteer first to give up the good life in order to keep sea level from rising a few inches in 100 years? I sure as hell ain't interested.
So we turn back to nukes for electricity. Does anybody remember 3-mile island? What about rad-waste storage? That has to be isolated for 100,000 years. What about decommisioning the nukes? They turn into high-level radioactive concrete tombs after about 50 years.
What do we do about freight hauling? You wouldn't be eating much or getting much of anything if it wasn't for all those trucks hauling goods.
The worst part about all the hype is that even those scientists that believe in carbon-induced global warming know that we can't fix it, no matter how much carbon reduction we achieve. So what's the point, on a practical level? It's only about political power and money for politicians and scientists that toe the official propaganda line.
We're all fixin to get screwed unless common sense prevails.
Posted by: Lewis at February 03, 2007 06:08 PM (GPDvZ)
42
You're all a bunch of waco no-nothings. It was Fred Flintstone's car that caused the last Ice Age to end.
Yabba Dabba Do!!!!!!!!
Posted by: Bill Smith at February 03, 2007 06:47 PM (EA4GY)
43
I've worked on compilers (.NET) and other aspects of computers. I don't see how that gives me the slightest insight into global warming.
That's not what I'm discussing and you damned well know it, particularly if you've ever doen anything with floating point. Incorrectly applied tools or poorly designed algorithms can give bad results.
Address that one example I looked at genius, the POP_2.0.1 program and its complete lack of any attempts at doing rounding control.
There's a damned good reason why Borland put _control87() and _status87() functions in Turbo C RTL. They ain't there to take up space, they're there so people could do SERIOUS math with the product and control the results and behavior of the math unit very precisely, putting compensations in exactly where they were needed to keep the math valid.
Anything that lacks this sort of fine control is not a serious tool for serious numerical calculation.
I don't need to know shit about the science of global warming to know if the tools are adequate or being applied correctly.
You say you've worked on .NET guts - excellent! Anders is at Microsoft now - go ask him about what I'm talking about. He wrote a big chunk of the Borland x87 emulator and is intimately familiar with the guts of floating point stuff himself.
If this shit doesn't matter, then a lot of people have been doing a lot of work over the past 27 years for nothing, and the IEEE 754 spec includes a lot of worthless features.
Posted by: Purple Avenger at February 03, 2007 08:37 PM (4vmN2)
44
"I don't need to know shit about the science of global warming to know if the tools are adequate or being applied correctly."
Jackass.
You don't know shit about numerical computation. You would have done well to take some lessons from Tanj. He's another one who knows the limitations of what floating point can and can't do, and how you can go badly wrong applying it naively.
I looked at the POP code. Its simply not doing what one expects to see in a serious numerical modeling application with iterative generations. I'm sorry you have a problem handling that "inconvenient truth", but I'm not going to lose any sleep over your technical ignorance of the guts of the tools either.
Posted by: Purple Avenger at February 03, 2007 10:13 PM (4vmN2)
45
PA -- "You would have done well to take some lessons from Tanj"
Dollars to donuts he's not a man-made global warming skeptic.
It's ludicrous that you think your experience with floating point numbers gives you a leg up on people that have actually, you know, studied the climate.
Hey who deleted my last post??
Posted by: Ted Nixon at February 03, 2007 11:12 PM (oGZ1x)
46
It's ludicrous that you think your experience with floating point numbers gives you a leg up on people that have actually, you know, studied the climate.
I presume no such thing.
I do presume to know what the limitations of the tools those people are using is though, because I am one of the tool builders who created some of that stuff.
I also know enough about what serious numerical computations look like to know when source code is flat out missing some of the operations I expect to see. I also took enough Operations Research to know that omitting seemingly insignificant factor can have a major impact on results.
Rounding control, denormalization and loss of precision exceptions exist for damn good reasons Ted. We don't build that crap into floating point units and the ability to control it into compilers for nothing.
Apparently you believe decades of design work and tools development on implementing these features was wasted right? That's fine. You can have your opinion about that.
If you believe these models are valid as they exists, then lets spend a few billion dollars more producing the proof of correctness before we spend trillions wrecking economies around the world.
The public is owed these correctness proofs when such vast sums are about to be spent.
Posted by: Purple Avenger at February 03, 2007 11:51 PM (4vmN2)
47
PA: So you don't know more about the climate than the professionals, but you know more about their *models* than they do. Twice you've asserted that you aren't saying that you know better than the pros, but actually that is precisely what you are saying.
News flash: all computer savvy people know that computer numbers are imprecise.
What's poignant about your argument is that many people believe in man-made gw just based on the charts that show co2 and average temperature skyrocketing in tandem. It's a compelling argument and involves no floats at all.
Your expertise with floating point numbers is just that. Your position would be derided by any competent climatologist, and rightfully so.
Posted by: Ted Nixon at February 04, 2007 02:05 AM (oGZ1x)
48
What I dread most is how global warming is going to be used as a moral baseball bat by liberals. Every time the weather is weird it's going to be blamed on global warming caused mostly by us ugly and selfish Americans. Of course, it's the conservative repubulicans and big business faults. If only we would have followed the lead of liberal dems. They are the saviors. Watching Gore beat his chest will be especially vomit-inducing.
The knee jerk moralizing led by Europe is already happening. Boxer has said the debate is over (what an idiot). Global warming is now an official religion (not science) of the left and cannot be questioned. Pathetic.
Posted by: Lewis at February 04, 2007 09:10 AM (KB1HA)
49
all computer savvy people know that computer numbers are imprecise.
Well duh!
What the vast majority of "computer savvy" people do NOT understand is the nature of that imprecision or how the tools provide mechanisms for compensating for it's cumulative distortive effects.
I guess the person who wrote POP isn't "computer savy" because there's nothing in it that attempts to compensate for this "imprecission" you admit exists.
Why should we trust models programmed by people who aren't computer savvy?
You've proved my point.
Posted by: Purple Avenger at February 04, 2007 12:07 PM (4vmN2)
50
Who melted the glaciers 10,000 years ago Ted?
Posted by: Purple Avenger at February 04, 2007 12:09 PM (4vmN2)
51
George W. Bush, of course. :-)
Posted by: Good Lt at February 04, 2007 01:27 PM (D0TMh)
52
PA: "What the vast majority of 'computer savvy' people do NOT understand is the nature of that imprecision or how the tools provide mechanisms for compensating for it's cumulative distortive effects."
You know more about climate models than the PhD's who built them. Will you say it a fourth time as a special favor to me? Keep digging! Here, I'll spruce it up for you:
"My understanding of floating point implementations gives me unique insight into global warming. The PhD's who designed these models did not in fact consider that floating points are imprecise and -- here's the kicker -- that this imprecision is *cumulative*."
Please, please, don't hoard this trove of knowledge! Write it up and submit it for inclusion in a conference! Your name will be in lights. Maybe Harvard will name a building in your honor.
POP routinely fails me. I see now that what's happening is that it's trying to divide the bits and bytes from my emails into fractional portions, thus occasionally I'll see a 'b' imprecisely downloaded to my computer as a 'c' or what have you.
"Who melted the glaciers 10,000 years ago Ted?"
The glaciers melted 10,000 years ago, before mankind produced substantial CO2, therefore global warming is not caused by man. It's beyond my modest powers to add any ridicule here.
Posted by: Ted Nixon at February 04, 2007 03:07 PM (irNSl)
53
T. Nixon, et. al.: if indeed you are searching for climatologists who do not agree with the hysterical posturing of Al Gore, may I refer you to the following?
Article entitled: "Sixty scientists call on Harper to revisit the science of global warming" (Financial Post, 2006)
"...It was only 30 years ago that many of today's global-warming alarmists were telling us that the world was in the midst of a global-cooling catastrophe. But the science continued to evolve, and still does, even though so many choose to ignore it when it does not fit with predetermined political agendas.
We hope that you will examine our proposal carefully and we stand willing and able to furnish you with more information on this crucially important topic."
Dr. Ian D. Clark, professor, isotope hydrogeology and paleoclimatology, Dept. of Earth Sciences, University of Ottawa
Dr. Tad Murty, former senior research scientist, Dept. of Fisheries and Oceans, former director of Australia's National Tidal Facility and professor of earth sciences, Flinders University, Adelaide; currently adjunct professor, Departments of Civil Engineering and Earth Sciences, University of Ottawa
Dr. R. Timothy Patterson, professor, Dept. of Earth Sciences (paleoclimatology), Carleton University, Ottawa
Dr. Fred Michel, director, Institute of Environmental Science and associate professor, Dept. of Earth Sciences, Carleton University, Ottawa
Dr. Madhav Khandekar, former research scientist, Environment Canada. Member of editorial board of Climate Research and Natural Hazards
Dr. Paul Copper, FRSC, professor emeritus, Dept. of Earth Sciences, Laurentian University, Sudbury, Ont.
Dr. Ross McKitrick, associate professor, Dept. of Economics, University of Guelph, Ont.
Dr. Tim Ball, former professor of climatology, University of Winnipeg; environmental consultant
Dr. Andreas Prokocon, adjunct professor of earth sciences, University of Ottawa; consultant in statistics and geology
Mr. David Nowell, M.Sc. (Meteorology), fellow of the Royal Meteorological Society, Canadian member and past chairman of the NATO Meteorological Group, Ottawa
Dr. Christopher Essex, professor of applied mathematics and associate director of the Program in Theoretical Physics, University of Western Ontario, London, Ont.
Dr. Gordon E. Swaters, professor of applied mathematics, Dept. of Mathematical Sciences, and member, Geophysical Fluid Dynamics Research Group, University of Alberta
Dr. L. Graham Smith, associate professor, Dept. of Geography, University of Western Ontario, London, Ont.
Dr. G. Cornelis van Kooten, professor and Canada Research Chair in environmental studies and climate change, Dept. of Economics, University of Victoria
Dr. Petr Chylek, adjunct professor, Dept. of Physics and Atmospheric Science, Dalhousie University, Halifax
Dr./Cdr. M. R. Morgan, FRMS, climate consultant, former meteorology advisor to the World Meteorological Organization. Previously research scientist in climatology at University of Exeter, U.K.
Dr. Keith D. Hage, climate consultant and professor emeritus of Meteorology, University of Alberta
Dr. David E. Wojick, P.Eng., energy consultant, Star Tannery, Va., and Sioux Lookout, Ont.
Rob Scagel, M.Sc., forest microclimate specialist, principal consultant, Pacific Phytometric Consultants, Surrey, B.C.
Dr. Douglas Leahey, meteorologist and air-quality consultant, Calgary
Paavo Siitam, M.Sc., agronomist, chemist, Cobourg, Ont.
Dr. Chris de Freitas, climate scientist, associate professor, The University of Auckland, N.Z.
Dr. Richard S. Lindzen, Alfred P. Sloan professor of meteorology, Dept. of Earth, Atmospheric and Planetary Sciences, Massachusetts Institute of Technology
Dr. Freeman J. Dyson, emeritus professor of physics, Institute for Advanced Studies, Princeton, N.J.
Mr. George Taylor, Dept. of Meteorology, Oregon State University; Oregon State climatologist; past president, American Association of State Climatologists
Dr. Ian Plimer, professor of geology, School of Earth and Environmental Sciences, University of Adelaide; emeritus professor of earth sciences, University of Melbourne, Australia
Dr. R.M. Carter, professor, Marine Geophysical Laboratory, James Cook University, Townsville, Australia
Mr. William Kininmonth, Australasian Climate Research, former Head National Climate Centre, Australian Bureau of Meteorology; former Australian delegate to World Meteorological Organization Commission for Climatology, Scientific and Technical Review
Dr. Hendrik Tennekes, former director of research, Royal Netherlands Meteorological Institute
Dr. Gerrit J. van der Lingen, geologist/paleoclimatologist, Climate Change Consultant, Geoscience Research and Investigations, New Zealand
Dr. Patrick J. Michaels, professor of environmental sciences, University of Virginia
Dr. Nils-Axel Morner, emeritus professor of paleogeophysics & geodynamics, Stockholm University, Stockholm, Sweden
Dr. Gary D. Sharp, Center for Climate/Ocean Resources Study, Salinas, Calif.
Dr. Roy W. Spencer, principal research scientist, Earth System Science Center, The University of Alabama, Huntsville
Dr. Al Pekarek, associate professor of geology, Earth and Atmospheric Sciences Dept., St. Cloud State University, St. Cloud, Minn.
Dr. Marcel Leroux, professor emeritus of climatology, University of Lyon, France; former director of Laboratory of Climatology, Risks and Environment, CNRS
Dr. Paul Reiter, professor, Institut Pasteur, Unit of Insects and Infectious Diseases, Paris, France. Expert reviewer, IPCC Working group II, chapter 8 (human health)
Dr. Zbigniew Jaworowski, physicist and chairman, Scientific Council of Central Laboratory for Radiological Protection, Warsaw, Poland
Dr. Sonja Boehmer-Christiansen, reader, Dept. of Geography, University of Hull, U.K.; editor, Energy & Environment
Dr. Hans H.J. Labohm, former advisor to the executive board, Clingendael Institute (The Netherlands Institute of International Relations) and an economist who has focused on climate change
Dr. Lee C. Gerhard, senior scientist emeritus, University of Kansas, past director and state geologist, Kansas Geological Survey
Dr. Asmunn Moene, past head of the Forecasting Centre, Meteorological Institute, Norway
Dr. August H. Auer, past professor of atmospheric science, University of Wyoming; previously chief meteorologist, Meteorological Service (MetService) of New Zealand
Dr. Vincent Gray, expert reviewer for the IPCC and author of The Greenhouse Delusion: A Critique of 'Climate Change 2001,' Wellington, N.Z.
Dr. Howard Hayden, emeritus professor of physics, University of Connecticut
Dr Benny Peiser, professor of social anthropology, Faculty of Science, Liverpool John Moores University, U.K.
Dr. Jack Barrett, chemist and spectroscopist, formerly with Imperial College London, U.K.
Dr. William J.R. Alexander, professor emeritus, Dept. of Civil and Biosystems Engineering, University of Pretoria, South Africa. Member, United Nations Scientific and Technical Committee on Natural Disasters, 1994-2000
Dr. S. Fred Singer, professor emeritus of environmental sciences, University of Virginia; former director, U.S. Weather Satellite Service
Dr. Harry N.A. Priem, emeritus professor of planetary geology and isotope geophysics, Utrecht University; former director of the Netherlands Institute for Isotope Geosciences; past president of the Royal Netherlands Geological & Mining Society
Dr. Robert H. Essenhigh, E.G. Bailey professor of energy conversion, Dept. of Mechanical Engineering, The Ohio State University
Dr. Sallie Baliunas, astrophysicist and climate researcher, Boston, Mass.
Douglas Hoyt, senior scientist at Raytheon (retired) and co-author of the book The Role of the Sun in Climate Change; previously with NCAR, NOAA, and the World Radiation Center, Davos, Switzerland
Dipl.-Ing. Peter Dietze, independent energy advisor and scientific climate and carbon modeller, official IPCC reviewer, Bavaria, Germany
Dr. Boris Winterhalter, senior marine researcher (retired), Geological Survey of Finland, former professor in marine geology, University of Helsinki, Finland
Dr. Wibjorn Karlen, emeritus professor, Dept. of Physical Geography and Quaternary Geology, Stockholm University, Sweden
Dr. Hugh W. Ellsaesser, physicist/meteorologist, previously with the Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory, Calif.; atmospheric consultant.
Dr. Art Robinson, founder, Oregon Institute of Science and Medicine, Cave Junction, Ore.
Dr. Arthur Rorsch, emeritus professor of molecular genetics, Leiden University, The Netherlands; past board member, Netherlands organization for applied research (TNO) in environmental, food and public health
Dr. Alister McFarquhar, Downing College, Cambridge, U.K.; international economist
Dr. Richard S. Courtney, climate and atmospheric science consultant, IPCC expert reviewer, U.K.
Posted by: Doug Ross at February 04, 2007 03:54 PM (z1M8l)
54
What I dread most is how global warming is going to be used as a moral baseball bat by liberals. Every time the weather is weird it's going to be blamed on global warming caused mostly by us ugly and selfish Americans.
Ya, those sicko's. That be like saying 911 or Hurricane Katrina was brought on by the actions and personal choices of Americans...and who would be crazy enough to say that? Certainly no one on the Right.
Posted by: Frederick at February 04, 2007 04:29 PM (m7NeX)
55
By the way, when I publish a paper I submit to journals that I believe I have a chance of getting published. Sometimes it might be a funky little publication, like the Proceedings of Supercomputing 98. If I am a skeptic of human caused global warming I am going to publish in journals that do not have a policy on the subject, like Phys. Rev. E. SO if I survey those journals that have a policy I can write assinine things like 900 believe it and none are against it. Interestingly enough they must not have surveyed Nature, who are supporters of human caused warming but are willing to publish contrarian papers.
Posted by: David at February 04, 2007 05:31 PM (Yu+t1)
56
Debunking all this nonsense isn't worth my time. Let us just mention one of Confederate Yankee's obvious inaccuracies for the time being:
If millions of years of history can be our guide—and it should— we are within a few hundred years of entering a new ice age.
What utter rubbish. Anyone familiar with the history of ice ages knows that they don't come and go like a perfectly set watch. Saying that something occurs an "average" of every-so-often is different from saying when that something will occur the next time around. There is no evidence we are "within few hundred years" from the next ice age.
According to cited sources in Wikipedia:
The Earth is in an interglacial period now, the last retreat ending about 10,000 years ago. There appears to be a conventional wisdom that "the typical interglacial period lasts ~12,000 years" but this is hard to substantiate from the evidence of ice core records. For example, an article in Nature[3] argues that the current interglacial might be most analogous to a previous interglacial that lasted 28,000 years.
Based on predicted changes in orbital forcing, in the absence of human influence, the current interglacial may be expected to last 50,000 years: see Milankovitch cycles. However anthropogenic forcing from increased "greenhouse gases" probably outweighs orbital forcing and the prediction for the next few hundred years is for temperature rises: see global warming
Posted by: mike at February 04, 2007 09:18 PM (GLMrI)
57
David -- "If I am a skeptic of human caused global warming I am going to publish in journals that do not have a policy on the subject, like Phys. Rev. E. SO if I survey those journals that have a policy I can write assinine [sic] things like 900 believe it and none are against it."
Ah, so scientific journal policies are the culprit. These journals have formed a cabal to mislead the world. Probably the communists have infiltrated this facet of our society too. The spineless climatologists won't speak out to save us from our communist fate.
I don't know what it is about the psychology of your side, but you discount evidence. Me, I see an eminently undistinguished man and figure he won't make a good president. You all valued his 'moral compass' for six years until even you all won't claim him anymore.
We see co2 levels and temperature spike in tandem, and figure that it's probably not a good idea to ignore this. You all are convinced that The Lord is looking out for our well being, or that communists are hijacking a natural phenomenon to tear down our capitalist system or whatever. It's wearying to share a nation with your kind.
Doug Ross -- watch this space. I'll find 60 professors who think the moon is made out of cheese. Won't that be an impressive display?
Posted by: Ted Nixon at February 04, 2007 09:49 PM (irNSl)
58
PA: Your position is that the overwhelming number of climatologists are wrong because they don't understand floating point numbers like you do, and therefore you do not fall into the same trap that all of them do. You are right about gw, they are completely wrong. So you are in fact saying that you understand global warming better than they do. They are misguided due to their poor grasp of floating point numbers. You know gw to be unrelated to man, whereas they do not. They are deluded whereas you stand alone in a world of truth.
Can you pretend like you don't understand this and restate your position a sixth time? Please?
Posted by: Ted Nixon at February 05, 2007 12:41 AM (irNSl)
59
Your position is that the overwhelming number of climatologists are wrong...
Nope.
Again you misrepresent my position entirely. Are you retarded or just being willfully ignorant because of political bias? I have no political bias here. My only bias is towards correct code that can be proven to produce accurate results.
Look at the POP model, as a programmer (you are a programmer right?), then come back and tell us all we should trust its results. Why do you resist performing this little exercise? Are you afraid of what you may find within?
If you don't have a good grasp of numerical computing and the details of how it can go wrong that's no crime either. 99% of the programmers on this planet aren't equipped to understand what I'm talking about either.
Posted by: Purple Avenger at February 05, 2007 01:39 AM (4vmN2)
60
1. An "overwhelming number" of the warmists purporting to be climate scientists have no such training.
2. The warmist minority in the science profession are almost all working with the same faulty proxy data, hence their "consensus."
3. Once you get past the basic physics and organic chemistry involved in climatic observations, about 90% of the anthropogenic warming question is math and statistics, so the rational person is going to trust the math, statistics and numerical computing experts, not the "climatologists."
Posted by: Junk Science Skeptic at February 05, 2007 02:58 AM (Fnr44)
61
I don't know a damn thing about the intricacies of computer models. I do know that some scientists have repeatedly said that all this overwrought hand wringing about what will happen in the next hundred years, is based on a hypothesis that went LOOKING for a connection...and voila!...they found one.
(I guess I would trust all these climatologists a bit more on what will happen 100 years from now, if they could accurately tell me what will happen...TOMORROW ...a little better)
Posted by: cfbleachers at February 05, 2007 03:03 AM (5RM9g)
62
Is it possible to have a little civility here? Maybe a good healthy debate. Most agree that the temperatures have increased in the last 100-150 years, although not greatly. The cause of that increase is still being debated throughout the scientific community, in spite of some consensus claims. Yes, both carbon dioxide and sunspots increased over that time (as best as we can measure). Now, if the suns output decreases in the near future, and the temperatures decrease, then we have a better cauase and effect relationship. We must also factor El Nino/La Nino effects and ocean decadal oscillations out of the equation. A short-term (10-30 year)temperature decrease based on oceanic changes should be expected. Which of these, or other, factors have the greatest climate influence may become apparent in the coming years.
Posted by: Dan at February 05, 2007 12:02 PM (U8gb+)
63
Is it possible to have a little civility here?
No. That is not possible without technical honesty integrity.
Posted by: Purple Avenger at February 05, 2007 12:23 PM (4vmN2)
64
Some clown, I think, Ted Nixon, wrote that 900 pro-man made GW papers were written, but 0 against man-made GW. Sir, you are a moron of the highest order.
Here's a link to a book written by the chief climatologist of the US.
http://www.amazon.com/Unstoppable-Global-Warming-Every-Years/dp/0742551172
Posted by: i say... at February 05, 2007 12:28 PM (RH22N)
65
Timothy Ball has a solid scientific pedigree:
...I was the first Canadian Ph.D. in Climatology and I have an extensive background in climatology, especially the reconstruction of past climates and the impact of climate change on human history and the human condition. ...I have a Ph.D, (Doctor of Science) from the University of London, England and that for 32 years I was a Professor of Climatology at the University of Winnipeg.
Waht does he say about Global Warming?
Believe it or not, Global Warming is not due to human contribution of Carbon Dioxide (CO2). This in fact is the greatest deception in the history of science. We are wasting time, energy and trillions of dollars while creating unnecessary fear and consternation over an issue with no scientific justification
Doesn't sound like "the debate is over" to me.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at February 05, 2007 01:03 PM (g5Nba)
66
Hmmm... seems Purple Avenger was on to something questioning those models:
U.N. scientists have relied heavily on computer models to predict future climate change, and these crystal balls are notoriously inaccurate. According to the models, for instance, global temperatures were supposed to have risen in recent years. Yet according to the U.S. National Climate Data Center, the world in 2006 was only 0.03 degrees Celsius warmer than it was in 2001--in the range of measurement error and thus not statistically significant.
The models also predicted that sea levels would rise much faster than they actually have. The models didn't predict the significant cooling the oceans have undergone since 2003--which is the opposite of what you'd expect with global warming. Cooler oceans have also put a damper on claims that global warming is the cause of more frequent or intense hurricanes. The models also failed to predict falling concentrations of methane in the atmosphere, another surprise.
Somebody alluded to it earlier, but it is worth noting again: are the same people building the global warming models the same people who built the models telling us this past hurricane season would be the most active ever?
'cause you know, they blew that, too.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at February 05, 2007 03:04 PM (g5Nba)
67
I'm arguing low level implementation details - which are very important to have a correct model. My argument presumes structurally sound and complete models that simply need to be tuned to give accurate results.
If the overall model itself structurally incomplete or based on false assumptions, then the low level implementation details won't matter at all ;->
Posted by: Purple Avenger at February 05, 2007 03:20 PM (4vmN2)
68
Ted, don't be a doofus if you can all help your self. Many journals have opinions on various subjects, and I have no problem with that, as long as on average every voice is heard. You are not going to see an article on ID in Nature, because the peer readers don't believe in it. Similarly if you have a journal whose readers have a vested interest in a theory they will rarely if ever let an article get in the journal that is contrary. I have been a peer reader and as such I know I have biases, but that is just how it works. If we have space for 18 articles and get 50 submitted, the 18 we publish will be the ones the peer readers were interested in. Many of them I wouldn't care what was said as long as it was supported, well argued , and comports with the editorial needs of the journal (end notes, etc). If you are a climate change contrarian you will publish with AAS, ASP, AIP, etc as you will at least get a hearing.
Posted by: David at February 05, 2007 04:05 PM (2ZfRZ)
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