Confederate Yankee
February 21, 2007
Back to the Board
Last Thursday, I provided Associated Press Media Relations Director Linda Wagner with confirmation that a January 4 Steven R. Hurst article appears to be 180-degrees from the truth. To date, neither Wagner nor any other AP contact has deemed to provide any sort of response. Frankly, I didn't expect one. The Hurst article was a CYA piece written to provide cover for shoddy Associated Press reporting, and it is not in their personal interests to admit that they've been caught apparently fabricating that story from the ground up.
I've thus resorted to contacting several members of the AP Board of Directors with the following letter sent out just moments ago, hoping that they will display the integrity that neither AP reporters nor senior management seem to have any interest in maintaining.
If they decline to investigate this extended "Jayson Blair" moment, then their integrity and credibility as a news organization, to put it mildly, is shot.
Here is a copy of the letter, with links added for context and HTML formatting added:
Julie Inskeep
Publisher
The Journal Gazette
Fort Wayne, Indiana
jinskeep@jg.net
David Lord
President
Pioneer Newspapers, Inc.
Seattle, Washington
dlord@pioneernewspapers.com
R. John Mitchell
Publisher
Rutland Herald
Rutland, Vermont
john.mitchell@rutlandherald.com
Jon Rust
Publisher
Southeast Missourian
Co-president, Rust Communications
Cape Girardeau, Missouri
jrust@semissourian.com
William Dean Singleton
Vice Chairman and CEO
MediaNews Group Inc.
Denver, Colorado
deansingleton@medianewsgroup.com
Jay R. Smith
President
Cox Newspapers, Inc.
Atlanta, Georgia
Jay.Smith@coxinc.com
Dear Publisher Inskeep, President Lord, Publisher Mitchell, Publisher Rust, CEO Singleton, and President Smith:
I write to you today as members of the Board of Directors for the Associated Press. I have uncovered conclusive evidence that The January 4, 2007 article by Associated Press reporter Steven R. Hurst titled "Iraq threatens arrest of police captain who spoke to media" is highly deceptive to the point I think that most reasonable people would consider it an outright lie.
The post is currently online here:
http://www.ap.org/FOI/foi_010407a.html
In that post, Hurst states:
"The Interior Ministry acknowledged Thursday that an Iraqi police officer whose existence had been denied by the Iraqis and the U.S. military is in fact an active member of the force, and said he now faces arrest for speaking to the media.
"Ministry spokesman Brig. Abdul-Karim Khalaf, who had previously denied there was any such police employee as Capt. Jamil Hussein, said in an interview that Hussein is an officer assigned to the Khadra police station, as had been reported by The Associated Press.
"The captain, whose full name is Jamil Gholaiem Hussein, was one of the sources for an AP story in late November about the burning and shooting of six people during a sectarian attack at a Sunni mosque.
"The U.S. military and the Iraqi Interior Ministry raised the doubts about Hussein in questioning the veracity of the AP's initial reporting on the incident, and the Iraqi ministry suggested that many news organization were giving a distorted, exaggerated picture of the conflict in Iraq. Some Internet bloggers spread and amplified these doubts, accusing the AP of having made up Hussein's identity in order to disseminate false news about the war.
"Khalaf offered no explanation Thursday for why the ministry had initially denied Hussein's existence, other than to state that its first search of records failed to turn up his full name. He also declined to say how long the ministry had known of its error and why it had made no attempt in the past six weeks to correct the public record."
People who read the report are led to believe that Iraqi Interior Ministry spokesman Brigadier General Abdul-Karim Khalaf confirmed that AP's source is named Jamil Gholaiem Hussein. BG Abdul-Karim Khalaf did no such thing.
In fact, on January 11, LT. Michael Dean, LT, US Navy assigned to Multi-National Corps-Iraq Public Affairs forwarded to me and several other bloggers the following an email from Bill Costlow, a civilian liaison with the Civilian Police Assistance Training Team (CPATT) working with the Iraqi Interior Ministry in Baghdad. The email said, in part (my bold):
"Seems like every time I talk to somebody about this guy, his name changes. His personnel record says his name is: Jamil Gulaim Innad XX XXXXXXX [name redacted for blog publication -ed.].
Spokesman BG Abdul-Kareem has spoken with members of the AP in Baghdad
and has confirmation that he is their source."
Note the last line in that paragraph. BG Abdul-Karim Khalaf did not confirm that the AP source was named Jamil Hussein. Quite to the contrary, AP reporters confirmed that the AP source was not Jamil Hussein, but was instead a man named Jamil Gulaim Innad XX XXXXXXX. To put it quite bluntly, Hurst's article is a categorical and blatant lie.
I followed up on this email, and got the following direct quote from BG Abdul-Karim Khalaf, forwarded to me by Bill Costlow, the Civilian Police Assistance Training Team (CPATT) liaison to the Iraqi Interior Ministry, on February 15:
"We couldn't identify CPT Jamil right away because the AP used the wrong name: we couldn't find a "CPT Jamil Hussein" — but later, when we saw the name "Jamil Gulaim Hussein", it became obvious that they were talking about CPT Jamil Gulaim Innad XX XXXXXXX" as the only 'Jamil Gulaim' assigned there (ever) and whose assignment records show he previously worked in Yarmouk, as also reported by the AP. Since the issue for us is the release of false news into the media, we're satisfied that the AP is no longer quoting a questionable source."
The General flatly states that Jamil Hussein is not Jamil Hussein as AP still contends, but is instead, CPT Jamil Gulaim Innad XX XXXXXXX.
Multiple levels of Associated Press employees, from stringers in the field in Iraq all the way up to Executive Editor Kathleen Carroll, International Editor Daniszewski, and Media Relations Director Linda Wagner, may have been knowingly perpetuating this pseudonym, and in essence, participating in a long-running fabrication.
They have apparently been deceiving Associated Press readers worldwide for over a month, and perhaps for as long as two years, if they knew his actual identity from the beginning.
AP Media Relations Director Linda Wagner was provided Brigadier General Abdul-Karim Khalaf’s direct quote for comment on the morning of February 15, but has declined to respond this far.
I have in my possession Brigadier General Abdul-Karim Khalaf's phone number for a direct confirmation of these charges, and I will gladly provide you with that number.
The Associated Press lied about the identity of Jamil Hussein, and still persists in maintaining this fabrication.
As readers and consumers of news provided by the Associated Press, we deserve a full retraction of the deceptive January 4 Steven R. Hurst article, an investigation of how long this willful deception has been on-going, and a formal apology. It is past time for the Associated Press to live up to these words in "The Associated Press Statement of News Values and Principles:"
"In the 21st century, that news is transmitted in more ways than ever before – in print, on the air and on the Web, with words, images, graphics, sounds and video. But always and in all media, we insist on the highest standards of integrity and ethical behavior when we gather and deliver the news.
"That means we abhor inaccuracies, carelessness, bias or distortions. It means we will not knowingly introduce false information into material intended for publication or broadcast; nor will we alter photo or image content. Quotations must be accurate, and precise.
"It means we always strive to identify all the sources of our information, shielding them with anonymity only when they insist upon it and when they provide vital information – not opinion or speculation; when there is no other way to obtain that information; and when we know the source is knowledgeable and reliable.
"It means we don't plagiarize.
"It means we avoid behavior or activities that create a conflict of interest and compromise our ability to report the news fairly and accurately, uninfluenced by any person or action.
"It means we don't misidentify or misrepresent ourselves to get a story. When we seek an interview, we identify ourselves as AP journalists.
"It means we don’t pay newsmakers for interviews, to take their photographs or to film or record them.
"It means we must be fair. Whenever we portray someone in a negative light, we must make a real effort to obtain a response from that person. When mistakes are made, they must be corrected – fully, quickly and ungrudgingly.
"And ultimately, it means it is the responsibility of every one of us to ensure that these standards are upheld. Any time a question is raised about any aspect of our work, it should be taken seriously."
A serious question has been raised regarding the apparent fabrication of a self-serving Associated Press claim, one that the management of the Associated Press seems to have no inclination to correct.
As members of the Board of Directors for the Associated Press, you have the responsibility to fully investigate this matter. If you decline to do so, your stated values and principles will be revealed for merely empty, self-serving words.
Respectfully,
Bob Owens
Confederate Yankee Blog
http://confederateyankee.mu.nu/
Regular readers many note that I've approached these members of the Associated Press Board of Directors
in the past to address problems with the AP's Hurriyah reporting, where the AP still maintains that 24 people died in mosque attacks on November 24, 2006, even though no bodies have ever been recovered, and despite the fact that
photographic evidence shows conclusively that an "inferno" at one mosque where AP wrote that 18 people died, frankly, never burned at all.
I therefore have very little confidence that even the clear lies printed about what Brig. Abdul-Karim Khalaf actually said will be addressed by the AP Board of Directors, though I welcome you to use the email addresses provided above to let your dissatisfaction with the quality of the AP's reporting on this matter be known.
The Associated Press published an apparent bald-faced lied on January 4, and has made no noticeable effort to atone for that most egregious of journalistic sins.
BG Abdul-Karim Khalaf never said AP's source was Jamil Hussein. Instead, AP reporters confirmed to him that their sources name was Jamil Gulaim Innad XX XXXXXXX. The story Hurst published was in direct opposition to what BG Abdul-Karim Khalaf says occurred.
The Associated Press apparently fabricated a cover-up. The only question is just how high up that cover-up goes.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
10:02 AM
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1
AP has contracted with Rosemary Woods to engineer this ;->
Posted by: Purple Avenger at February 21, 2007 02:20 PM (HDpFt)
2
Have you noticed that your site doesn't get listed under news.g?ogle.com searches for "Jamil Hussein" anymore? It used to. Now it doesn't.
Posted by: x at February 21, 2007 03:47 PM (j1KbG)
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x,
that wasn't a metric I was tracking, but I went to Google News to check out what you said, typed in "Jamil Hussein, " and stuff I wrote accounts for 3 of the top 4 links right now. One is a newsbusters post of mine, and the others show as Jawa Report links, but they go directly to my site.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at February 21, 2007 04:06 PM (g5Nba)
4
Neither offense nor snark intended here, but isn't it possible that you're not getting a reply to your letter because it a) is very, very lengthy and b) comes from a blogger (as opposed to an established journalist)?
Posted by: Doc Washboard at February 21, 2007 04:14 PM (/Wery)
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Doc, that is a valid question as it relates to the AP Board members, and I suspect that some them probably have an executive assistant to screen their emails.
That said, the subject matter discussed also went to AP Media Relations Director Linda Wagner, the same woman who virtually tripped over herself to issue a hasty denial when I asked Steven Hurst to confirm Jamil's real name weeks ago. She and other senior AP managers likely knew Jamil's real last name before Hurst's article went to print on Janaury 4th, and if that speculation is correct, it would make them a party to fraud... not real good for their job security.
I know Wagner reads at least some of my emails, as she had responded to me directly several times. It's when I've noted little things, like the exaggerations or false accounts, that she decides to clam up.
The AP got caught lying, and hopes that by merely waiting it out, they can get through it without too much damage.
Who knows? They might even be right.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at February 21, 2007 04:34 PM (g5Nba)
6
Bob, isn't it possible that the reason you get no response is because the AP's reaction is "Ugh, there's that guy who told us that JH didn't exist and he did. So, um, why should we waste our time listening to his reckless ass?" And why would they be wrong?
You're not exactly the epitome of reliability, fella.
Posted by: ts at February 21, 2007 04:35 PM (ILyRW)
7
ts, you might want to try re-reading this post again.
Jamil Hussein doesn't exist. He never did, as Brigadier General Abdul-Karim Khalaf confirmed.
AP's source is another name entirely, and what's more, AP knows I have the right name, which is why they're clamming up now, instead of issuing heated denials as they have in the past.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at February 21, 2007 04:42 PM (g5Nba)
8
Keep after 'em, Bob. I excerpted and linked from Part 50 of my Jamilgate series.
Posted by: Bill Faith at February 21, 2007 04:54 PM (n7SaI)
9
CY,
you've done excellent work and presented the situation well in your letters.
agape,
robb
Posted by: wuzrobbd at February 21, 2007 05:34 PM (YiRYY)
10
Yeah, your stories still show up at other sites (for now? ; -). I just meant the confederateyankee site. Your Feb. 15th confederateyankee entry on Jamil Hussein was the top hit at google news for a couple days, then it disappeared. Wonder if maybe someone at google decided that confederateyankee no longer \\\"qualifies\\\" as news.
Posted by: x at February 21, 2007 08:16 PM (iONp3)
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February 20, 2007
Nuts
After Tom Elia tipped me to the story of a liberal stalker attacking a couple of Republican roommates after tracking them down from a Republican web site, I decided to take a commenter's advice and attempt to see if there was any sort of commentary about the arrest on the Democratic Underground.
Nice folks.
I didn't run across any reference to stalker boy, but I did run across a lovely comment related to Prince Harry, the British heir and Army officer intent on deploying to Iraq with the rest of his unit.
What does the DUer smell?
CONSPIRACY!
This has probably been suggested before
But it occurs to me that this would give bush* a very good way of getting the british public more on-side in the 'war on terrorism'.
"PRINCE HARRY KILLED BY AL-QAEDA TERRORISTS" would be a lovely headline for bush*.
What surprises me the most about this comment? They made it all the way down to the sixth comment before implicating the President in a conspiracy to murder the Prince.
They must finally be starting to warm up to him.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
08:06 PM
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The moonbats are starting to get aggressive. Could get ugly.
Posted by: Purple Avenger at February 20, 2007 10:04 PM (HDpFt)
2
I'll see DU's ridiculous conspiracy theory and raise them one:
You're telling me that three grown-ass men got thumped by one moonbat? You're telling me that between the three of them there weren't at least 17 semi-automatic weapons? Three republicans who, of course, refused to enlist??
I smell a conspiracy! A conspiracy to try to paint republican party members as a buncha sissyboys!! Who's with me?!?
Posted by: paully at February 20, 2007 11:07 PM (75YCX)
3
It's like a moonbat dogfight here.
You guys pick one comment from DU and apply it to the whole left-wing. THIS coming from a website suggesting that a maltese cross has been subliminated behind Dick Cheney's head by the so-called MSM to suggest a war of civilizations -- or something.
The words "jump the shark" come to mind, but I'm just a lowly troll...
Posted by: Pennypacker at February 21, 2007 12:53 AM (acgYa)
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Penny.... Grow up. The DU is quite full of idiots, as you might find if you...oh... went and looked?
Posted by: Foxfier at February 22, 2007 03:32 AM (tHC5n)
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*reads story* *snickers* Gee, he was upset that they weren't putting their all into it by enlisting.....
Gee.... Could he maybe be a moonbat Democrat?
Posted by: Foxfier at February 22, 2007 03:34 AM (tHC5n)
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Because One Jimmy Carter Isn't Enough
It appears that Amanda Marcotte and Melissa McEwan were right for the Edwards campaign after all:
There are other emerging fissures, as well. The aggressively photogenic John Edwards was cruising along, detailing his litany of liberal causes last week until, during question time, he invoked the "I" word — Israel. Perhaps the greatest short-term threat to world peace, Edwards remarked, was the possibility that Israel would bomb Iran's nuclear facilities. As a chill descended on the gathering, the Edwards event was brought to a polite close.
Catholics offended?
check.
Christians offended?
check.
Jews offended?
check.
Johnny Haircut's had a pretty busy month.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
03:58 PM
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Atleast Jimmy Carter has the possibility of dementia to blame, Edwards only has stupidity to blame.
It's a long way to the elections, think of all the blunders he'll make before then.
Posted by: Retread at February 20, 2007 04:51 PM (mtsTe)
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Hahaha! Silky Pony is too sexy for Israel.
Posted by: DirtCrashr at February 20, 2007 04:54 PM (VNM5w)
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Perhaps Edwards is broadening his support, uniting the Holocaust deniers and others of the ultra-left with the ultra-right aryan and Christian Identity vote.
Posted by: ER at February 20, 2007 06:17 PM (2ED/Z)
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Er, dude, Catholics are Christians
Posted by: taustin at February 20, 2007 06:44 PM (XTmzr)
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Catholics are Christians, but not all Christians are Catholics. That's the beauty of Edwards: he's reaching out to offend as many major religious groups as possible... well, except the one that would threaten to kill him for it.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at February 20, 2007 06:56 PM (HcgFD)
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Edwards is a non-candidate. All he's doing is wasting money.
Posted by: Purple Avenger at February 20, 2007 10:05 PM (HDpFt)
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It's amazing.
The best part about this is they just don't understand what should be obvious to any twelve-year old.
Over at Salon Gary Kamiya is openly wondering what the nutroots are going to do after Bush is gone, which I think is a damn good question. If they are irrelevant NOW, wait until after the Dems lose again in 08, but at least somebody's asking. They need Bush, and without him, the nutroots vanish.
Firedoglake of course is attacking him for it.
"Lord god, this is the stuff that chaps my ass. Go on home, kids! Gary says we're outmoded. We've done everything we can do here. Now it's time to shut up so that people like David ******* Broder will take the Left seriously. Apparently, Kamiya sees us as some kind of liability for the Party."
Attention nutroots: You are not only a liability to the party but pretty much the entire political discourse process in this country, as well as the security of the US in a post 9/11 world.
Howard Dean, Ned Lamont, John Edwards...Feel free to ruin more Dem candidates however.
Posted by: Jared at February 21, 2007 08:58 AM (4xUWs)
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Fire the Puppy-Blending Murdering Fascists!
Fresh off of his masterful exercise in self-deception declaring that Iranian nuclear scientists and apocalyptic Hojjatieh sect members cannot be targeted for precision killings, and by default, therefore must be killed by a conventional heavy bombing campaign that will kill dozensof real civilians, University of Colorado law professor Paul Campos has determined that it is also unethical to hunt dear with precision firearms, and suggested a more appropriate response.

Run Bambi, run!
Far more serious debunkings of Campos' legally illiterate screed are available
here,
here, and less directly,
here.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
03:27 PM
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And just what does Glenn Reynolds have to do with this picture (is he in the chopper)?
Posted by: David at February 20, 2007 07:19 PM (aZ7dF)
2
I'm pretty sure longbows are legal during archery season, Apache Longbows - perhaps not.
Posted by: ThomasD at February 22, 2007 04:01 PM (HDgen)
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Armageddon-it-on
Am I alone in thinking that the only real apparent benefit of United Nations involvement in this project is the threat that if Apophisians don't find a way to change course away from Earth, that they might be subject to rape?
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
12:51 PM
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2036? Not my problem, I'll be dead by then.
Posted by: 1sttofight at February 20, 2007 01:30 PM (Fuqtj)
2
Use a spaceship's gravity to change the course of the asteroid? That's either a very big ship, or a mighty small correction. It'd be easier to strap a handful of engines to it and steer it where you want it.
As for U.N. involvement, I'd rather leave it to NASA, so that the funds actually go to the goal, or, better yet, private investors who want to mine the rock for whatever ores it might have. (I actually now some young men who have that as their long-term business goal.)
Posted by: MikeM at February 20, 2007 03:23 PM (BTGpC)
3
It would be appropriate to send the UN up there to negotiate peace-talks with a rock. With just enough fuel for a one-way trip.
Posted by: DirtCrashr at February 20, 2007 04:56 PM (VNM5w)
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Desperate Insurgents Detonate Chemical Bomb
A chemical tanker carrying chlorine gas and equipped with a bomb killed 5-6 Iraqi civilians and injured over 100 when detonated outside a restaurant in the Iraqi town of Taji:
A tanker carrying chlorine gas exploded Tuesday morning outside a restaurant in the Iraqi town of Taji, killing at least six people, an Interior Ministry official said. At least 105 other people were either injured by the blast or poisoned by the fumes.
The official said a bomb on board the tanker caused the explosion.
Baghdad Security plan spokesman Gen. Qassim Atta had different casualty figures, telling state-run al-Iraqiya TV that five people died in the blast and 148 were poisoned by the gas.
Taji is located about 12 miles (20 km) north of Baghdad.
Somewhat ironically, Taji was home to a Saddam-era airfield and Iraqi Republican Guard base that had a large complex used to
manufacture chemical weapons. UNSCOM found 6,000 canisters at the base that would have been filled with chemical weapons for 122mm rockets. In 1998, UNSCOM weapons inspectors found that the Iraqis had
loaded VX nerve agent into missile warheads prior to the 1990-91 Gulf War for apparent use against the coalition, but these weapons were never used.
The use of a chemical bomb in Iraq is a new escalation for the Sunni insurgency, and one that may indicate a certain level of desperation for those who would use a weapon that comes with such a stigma. Based upon the nature of the weapon, it's location, and its target (a civilian restaurant) is reasonable to make the assumption that the remnants of what used to be al Qaeda in Iraq, which has folded along with other collapsing Sunni insurgent groups into an organization known as the Islamic State of Iraq, is behind the bombing.
The group was created last year as coalition forces continued to decimate various elements of the Sunni insurgency, and the survivors decided to
come together "to unify their efforts and coordinate attacks" in a futile effort to establish a Sunni caliphate within Iraq under Sharia law.
Last August, al Qaeda in Iraq "oveplayed its hand" when it murdered Sheik Khalid of the Albu Ali Jassim tribe, and in response, Sunni tribes have been
actively hunting and killing insurgents in a movement of Sunni tribes known as "the Awakening."
Since then, al Qaeda and its increasingly fewer affiliate Islamists has more often been the hunted than the hunter, and the use of a chemical bomb today hints at the level of desperation they have now reached.
While the western media is almost certain to interpret the attack as an increase in the level of violence to counter the "surge" of American and Iraqi troops and implementation of the
the Petraeus plan designed to crush the remaining al Qaeda strongholds, it is doubtful they will recognize, much less publicize, the level of desperation that the Sunni Islamists militants in Iraq have reached to use a weapon that can only diminish their collapsing support.
al Qaeda in Iraq
is dying, and there is a noticeable feeling that momentum is shifting no only in Iraq,
but at home, to finish this war with victory (h/t
Instapundit).
The Sunni Islamists in Iraq are becoming ever more desperate. The war in Iraq is far from over, but there seems little chance that these elements of the insurgency, increasing turned upon by the very Sunni tribes that once made up their base of support, will survive as any sort of cohesive force.
Update: Hot Air reminds us that this was not the first attempt to detonate a chemical bomb, just the first successful attempt.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
11:55 AM
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I am actually suprised that the terrorists didn't save this one to go after a US base. They must have been pressured to 'use it or lose it' to waste it on slaughtering Shiites. Chemical weapons are so risky. A wrong wind and the gas cloud could have wound up in a Sunni neighborhood. This will not play well on the "Arab Street" for Al Qaeda.
Posted by: BohicaTwentyTwo at February 20, 2007 12:40 PM (oC8nQ)
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February 19, 2007
More Fauxtography
You would think that after the downfall of Adnan Hajj that the professional media would have developed a sharper eye for noticing crudely PhotoShopped photographs, but even though Charles Johnson and others debunked a crude Iranian PhotoShop purporting to show U.S. munitions being used to subvert the government of Iran over the weekend, it didn't keep the ever-gullible L.A. Times from running the photo today.
Bloggers did a good job showing the PhotoShopping faults that
Times photo editors should have quickly and rather easily caught, but simply doing a Google image search should have quickly proven the rifle ammunition claim questionable.
The ammunition box in the Iranian PhotoShop shows the front of a box of ammunition with the words "CAL. 7.62x39mm 123 GR. BALL" and the distinctive Winchester USA brand logo on the right side of the box. Here is the photo with the ammunition box isolated as it appeared on LGF:
Here's the thing: The Winchester USA brand ammunition I'm familiar with (I sell it in multiple calibers) doesn't look anything like the box on the photo. Typically, when ammunition is stacked, the top of the box is obscured, and so most ammunition manufacturers, including Winchester, put the caliber of the bullets on the end of the box, as seen here in a picture of showing the common packaging of a box of Winchester USA brand 7.62x39mm ammunition.
Is it reasonable for the photo editors of national news organizations to do some rudimentary checking to make sure pictures they publish aren't crudely PhotoShopped propaganda? You would think so, as that would seem to cut to the heart of their job responsibilities these days where image manipulation is now available to the masses.
It seems reasonable that if a news organization is going to run a picture of a certain building that they might want to take steps to make sure that is the building pictured, and so it seems reasonable that if they are going to run pictures from a foreign regime purporting to contain U.S. bullets and munitions, that they would do some basic fact checking to see if the bullets are in the correct packaging, and perhaps they should check to see if the grenades in the photo
aren't Russian.
It isn't rocket science to check pictures for fauxtography, but it apparently eludes the best minds that the
L.A. Times has to offer.
Update: Apparently,
I'm not alone in keying in on the ammunition packaging.
Outside the Wire has links to pictures showing the differences between military and civilian ammunition packaging.
As you might suspect, they aren't that subtle.
Update: YNET is now running with the story, and a reader states in the comments that the ammunition boxes shown in the Iranian story appears to be Winchester USA commericial (civilian) ammunition boxes from approximately 20 years ago.
Some smoking gun.
Update: Reader Don Jordan send along a couple of pictures of some 7.62x39mm Winchester USA ammunition he owns dating to 1994.
He thinks he saw box design used in the Iranian photo being sold around San Diego about 11-12 years ago. He also has a friend with an extensive collection of older 7.62x39mm Winchester USA ammunition who might be able to get a better handle on the date this particular civilian ammunition box design was in use.
Update: It looks like we can pin down the date of manufacture to circa 1993.
That spring, says reader Robert Miller, is when he got this Winchester USA 9mm ammunition that shows packaging indistinguishable from that used in the Iranian photo (
nice background, Robert). The Iranians are claiming we're supplying their insurgency with economy civilian practice ammunition made about 14 years ago.
I'm less than impressed.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
03:03 PM
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Thanks for the REAL photo of what a Winchester ammunition box looks like. However, isn't is possible that the Iranian photo is of an older box, much older. Check out how the stars go all around the USA on the real box, but only go in a semi circle on the fake one. Why photoshop an emblem that is almost accurate?
Posted by: BohicaTwentyTwo at February 19, 2007 03:29 PM (oC8nQ)
2
Yes, it is possible that the Iranian PhotoShop did use an older Winchester box, but I find that unlikely for several reasons.
The first is that Iran is attempting to state that the United States is currently shipping ammunition into Iran, which would probably indicate current packaging over older ammunition.
The second is that the shape of the box would seem to indicate commercial packaging, not military packaging.
The long rectangular boxes used for commercial ammunition packages two rows of 10 rounds each on plastic clips. This is bulky, and is not what I expect in more typical military packaging, where space is at a premium. Most 7.62x39 military grade ammunition that I've comes across comes in far more compact packaging, without the plastic clips (and the intervening air space) that adds so much bulk. Representative packaging for military 7.62x39 ammo in 20 round packages is about the thickness of two packs of cigarettes back-to-back, which then tpyically comes in larger sealed metal "sardine cans" to protect the ammunition from moisture.
Further, is it very doubtful that the U.S. would use ammunition so readily traced to American ammunition manufacturing companies, when it is far easier and far less expensive to purchase bulk lots of surplus 7.62x39mm ammunition for the region itself, or simply divert some of the ammunition use by the Iraqi military of police.
Nothing in the Iranian claim makes the least bit of sense, and the ammo packaging is just part of the story.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at February 19, 2007 03:52 PM (g5Nba)
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Hey Confederate Yankee.
LGF reader MeanMrMustard posted this picture.
http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a375/jazzbass4/Penn/DSCN0387.jpg
He says this style box is 20 years old.
Posted by: Geepers at February 19, 2007 04:31 PM (lTHQs)
4
Very crude Photoshop. Notice in the original image here:
http://littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/pictures/20070219IranFauxtographyLAT.jpg
You can see the octagonal tiles on the ground. In the PS'd one, the tiles are partially cloned out, but partially still there.
For instance, you have the group of 7 canisters above the cartridge box in the original photo (which appears to be an old, old box of winchester NON MILITARY ammo) you can tell that the tiles have been munged out of existence, and the AK mags have been cloned out, the AK rifles in the upper LH corner have been cloned out, and replaced with more canisters.
Posted by: Buddy at February 19, 2007 04:47 PM (aGQVo)
5
P.S. Those two photos are NOT exactly the same photo, though, and it does appear there is a US manufactured box of 7.62 ammo (civilian, not milspec) in there. The grenades are russian, though, and the second photo is QUITE OBVIOUSLY photoshopped.
Posted by: Buddy at February 19, 2007 04:53 PM (aGQVo)
6
P.S. Those two photos are NOT exactly the same photo, though (view angle is different), and it does appear there is a US manufactured box of 7.62 ammo (civilian box, not military) in there. It does appear to be two shots of the same 'layout' of equiment. The ammo is widely available, repackaged, old milsurplus, for instance here:
http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=366288
The grenades are russian, though, and the second photo is QUITE OBVIOUSLY photoshopped.
Posted by: Buddy at February 19, 2007 05:01 PM (aGQVo)
7
A 20 year old box of commercially available civilian ammunition is hardly evidence. This is, of course, as opposed to months old military grade RPG rounds and SAM missiles.
Posted by: BohicaTwentyTwo at February 19, 2007 05:08 PM (oC8nQ)
8
Look - if the LA-Times hadn't run that picture - we wouldn't have the smoking gun on the Fars picture - once you have seen the LA-Times picture and the Fars picture you can see that the little "oddities" - like the remaining part of the stock and the strap, which always looked a bit odd - fit in perfectly when you see the LA-Times picture ..
Like I say - I love free speech - it lets me see the enemy real close up ..
Posted by: drk at February 19, 2007 05:15 PM (Q/029)
9
RE: More Fauxtography
The picture is blurry but the silver cannisters appear to be a VOG 25 40mm round for the AK47 under barrel grenade launhcer GP-25 and GP 30. I have seen plenty of these up close (pictures attached).
Sorry, I do not know how to forward the photos which came from friend now in Afghan.
Posted by: Harry at February 19, 2007 05:27 PM (YIa5h)
10
Friends,
The rational and logical reasoning here, on THIS site, is designed to appeal to rational and logical souls...
The propaganda picture from Iran can be debunked, but the main targets for that (Muslim ignorati and American/EUnuch supporters of Islamo-fascism) cannot follow these debunkings, either because the Islamists are kept in a state of ignorance by their clergy, OR because they are already emotionally committed to the pretext that 'America CAUSES terror'...
Nevertheless, GOOD WORK.
"The Best-Beloved of all things in My sight is Justice." The Glory of God
Posted by: Karridine at February 19, 2007 07:56 PM (MkrWp)
11
Grenades?
http://www.arsenal-bg.com/defense_police/40mm_round_high_explosive_fragmentation_RHEF.htm
Posted by: PETN Sandwich at February 19, 2007 07:58 PM (BqzGm)
12
The hand grenades featured in this "photo" are Soviet F-1 Fragmentations grenades. Not of US origin.
Posted by: AICGOD at February 20, 2007 09:53 AM (97WpV)
13
Trackbacked by The Thunder Run - Web Reconnaissance for 02/20/2007
A short recon of what’s out there that might draw your attention.
Posted by: David M at February 20, 2007 04:08 PM (6+obf)
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Onward Christian Soldiers
The Jawa Report notes the canonization of "Saint Harry" today (h/t Hot Air) and provides examples of other, less flattering photo compositions of conservatives that made it on the front pages of media sites over the past few years.
With that as a guide, I must wonder:
does this count as another example of biased photo composition?
The blurred object in the background bears a resemblence to the Maltese Cross carried into battle by Christian warriors
since the first Crusade.
Now, the media would never use a creative photo angle or strategic photo composition imply that Vice President Cheney is carrying on a crusade against Islam, would it?
Heavens, no.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
01:09 PM
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1
Well, buddy, now you're just being crazy.
Posted by: Doc Washboard at February 19, 2007 01:53 PM (UotcL)
2
Would that be his crusade against the Chinese Islamofascists or the North Korean variety? I only ask because this is the text that accompanies the picture:
US Vice President Dick Cheney gives a speech in Washington, DC, on 14 February. Cheney was heading to Japan and Australia, where he will discuss their roles in Iraq and Afghanistan and common challenges like China's rise and North Korea's nuclear programs.
Anyway, Bush himself declared the GWOT to be a "crusade." We're not backing away from that now, are we? If we do, the terrorists win. Surge the course!
Posted by: Doc Washboard at February 19, 2007 02:01 PM (UotcL)
3
Well, buddy, now you're just being crazy.
So you see no pattern here:
http://www.sweetness-light.com/archive/what-media-bias-the-democrat-halo-effect
Posted by: lb at February 19, 2007 02:27 PM (dhT/J)
4
If anything, the image in the Cheney picture counts as more of a golden shine than anything else--who the hell would think about a Maltese cross, anyway, except for someone looking to read something sinister into everything they see? As a matter of fact, it is more likely conservative bias: the shot is clearly set up to portray golden goodness coming out of his mouth.
Sure, photojournalists compose shots for maximum effectiveness; many may compose their shots to send a message. That doesn't mean that all photos mean something evil.
If politicians know that they're going to be photographed, why stand in front of a sign that says "rat?" Or "retire?"
In re: Rove: Wasn't there a spate of stories recently speculating about his leaving his current job? In that context, framing the shot with an "EXIT" sign would be just an extension of the storyline--an illustration of what the story is about.
Posted by: Doc Washboard at February 19, 2007 03:00 PM (UotcL)
5
"conservative bias?" Give me some of whatever you've been smoking please, Doc. On the other hand, sometimes a blurred background image is just a blurred background image--and I think it would be giving our journofacist friends too much credit to assume they would even recognize any association between a Maltese cross and the crusades. After all, for them, history started when the US got involved in Vietnam.
Posted by: Poopstain at February 19, 2007 08:59 PM (Gvo/q)
6
I get all teary-eyed when I see conservatives learning -- and practicing! -- these new-fangled post-modernist concepts like "media literacy" in which you search for the implicit bias in the framing of a picture.
I thought I would only be able to talk with a bunch of marxist-feminist college professors about this kind of stuff, but here are dyed-in-the-wool reactionaries willing to do the same. I'm looking forward to when we can have a Wednesday night discussion of Foucault!
Posted by: Pennypacker at February 19, 2007 11:52 PM (acgYa)
7
Pennypacker: What the Fouc you talkin' ault?
Posted by: TheManTheMyth at February 20, 2007 10:00 AM (Gvo/q)
8
Pennypacker: What the Fouc you talkin' ault
Okay, that's pretty funny.
Posted by: Pennypacker at February 21, 2007 12:21 AM (acgYa)
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Surge Impact in Baghdad
A source in Iraq has forwarded me a copy of the DynCorp CIVPOL Intel Report from Feb 15-16, which shows the kind of impact that the "surge" in Baghdad is having on the various Sunni insurgency and Shia militia elements operating there.
DynCorp is a United States-based private military contractor which helps train police in both Iraq and Afghanistan, in addition to providing teams of military contractors in other theaters. According to Wikipedia, DynCorp
also assisted recovery efforts in Louisiana and neighboring areas after Hurricane Katrina.
From the summary:
There was a total of 24 incidents reported during this period, which was the lowest total recorded in over a year. The low total can be linked not only to the new security plan but the torrential rain during the evening of the 15th which severely hampered the emplacement of IEDs. Several reports through open media sources state that insurgents continued to attempt to disrupt the new security plan with the use of IDF, IEDs and VBIEDs and they had little, if any, effect to slow the US-Iraqi program.
During the review period, US and Iraqi forces pushed deeper into Sunni militant strongholds in Baghdad, where cars rigged with explosives greeted their advance. In the Doura District two parked cars wired with explosives were triggered as a joint US-Iraqi patrol rolled past. The convoy was unharmed, but the blast killed at least four civilians and wounded 15. The explosions did little to disrupt the security sweep attempting to weaken militia groups' ability to fight US-allied forces (as well as each other). Most of the latest resistance has come from Sunni factions, which perceive their Saddam Hussein-era influence slipping away as the majority Shiites extend their political force and bolster ties to Iran. The Pentagon hopes its current campaign of arrests and arms seizures will convince average Iraqis that militiamen are losing ground.
A leader of the main Sunni bloc in parliament, Adnan al-Dulaimi, claimed the US-led sweeps have "started to attack" mostly Sunni areas. "It should concentrate on those who are perpetrating the violence and terrorist acts in all districts," he said; an apparent reference to the Shiite militia stronghold of Sadr City.
Throughout the capital, US and Iraqi soldiers set up dozens of roadway checkpoints and conducted top-to-bottom searches of vehicles and motorbikes. Generally the public’s sentiment is that they are willing to put up with delays so long as the security sweep shows some results after bombings that have killed hundreds of civilians this year.
The US military said that five suspected militants had been detained and numerous pistols, rifles, AK-47s and small arms munitions seized during searches of more than 3,000 structures since an operation began Tuesday in mainly Shiite northeastern Baghdad. It also said clearing operations were continuing in the predominantly Sunni northern neighborhood of Adhamiyah.
According to ministry officials, The number of Iraqi civilians killed in Baghdad's sectarian violence fell drastically during the review period, crediting the joint US-Iraqi security operation that began in force just days ago. Iraqi army Brig. Gen. Qassim Moussawi, a spokesman for the Baghdad commander, said only 10 bodies had been reported by the morgue in the capital, compared to an average of 40 to 50 per day.
Two charts in the report show the overall decreasing level of violence in Baghdad over the timeframes of 01-02 Feb through 15-16 Feb, and 09-10 Feb through 15-16 Feb respectively.
The abbreviations in the chart above are for improvised explosive devices (IEDs), rocket-propelled grenades (RPGs), small arms fire (SAF), indirect fire (IDF - typically meaning mortars), and COMP which, quite frankly, has me stumped.
The report also mentions a tantalizing vehicle heist believed orchestrated by the Madhi Army, which may hint that another attack on coalition forces like the Karbala incident thought to have been carried out by
Iranian Quds Force commandos that saw U.S. soldiers
kidnapped and killed in a sophisticated raid, may be on the horizon:
DynCopr Armored vehicles stolen by Madhi Army-Bumper numbers A223 (Black Suburban) and A 60 (Green Chevy Suburban). Vehicles stolen while enroute from FOB Warhorse-May possibly be used in attck [sic] similar to Karbala or as VBIEDs.
Obviously, this report does not address
the most recent attacks 30 miles north of Baghad, which occurred after this report was released, nor the smattering of attacks inside Baghad itself over the weekend.
Jules Crittenden notes how the media seems to be hoping and waiting for a Tet Offensive type attack:
This raises a question I’ve been wondering about. We’ve seen surge results, and we’ve seen the brief peace broken. No surprise here. Obviously it is to the benefit of the enemy to paint the surge as a failure, and well with the enemy’s capability to keep launching attacks. They can continue launching sporadic attacks as they are able, and the Surrender Camp will seize on them as signs of failure.
An attack like this on a base is an attention grabber, but it doesn’t sound like it involved a human wave assault, and for an alert and well-defended base, probably never threatened to amount to more than deadly harassment. Awaiting more details on that.
Is the enemy capable of anything like Tet-like offensive? I highly doubt it. No unified command and control; little cooperation among groups; nothing close to the necessary number of troops; and the U.S. is putting heavy pressure on all the leadership … al-Qaeda, Baathists, Mahdi Army, Iranians … everyone’s on the run. If anything, a campaign of coordinated frontal assaults would be a great opportunity to break the enemy … just as it did in Tet. The threat is political.
It is worth noting that the
Tet Offensive Crittenden references was a crushing military defeat for the North Vietnamese and their Viet Cong allies, that saw the Viet Cong in particular decimated and operationally crippled, and that it was
the American media helped turn the route (an estimated 45,000 VC and NVA were killed, versus just 4,324 KIA for allied forces, roughly 2,800 of them South Vietnamese) into a propaganda victory for the North Vietnamese.
Despite more attacks by Sunni and Shia terrorists and Congressional Democrats led by
John "Okinawa" Murtha, there is every indication that the Baghdad "surge" is having an impact at reducing the overall level of violence in Iraq's capital.
Let's just hope that we can see marked improvements that even the press can't deny before Democrats can organize a successful surrender.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
11:54 AM
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1
My educated guess is that COMP is for COMPLEX meaning more than one of the single types of attacks.
Posted by: BohicaTwentyTwo at February 19, 2007 12:21 PM (oC8nQ)
2
Good analogy to the Tet-O... although it's a little scary given our current MSM situation.
Posted by: David at February 19, 2007 12:31 PM (tGHYV)
3
there is every indication that the Baghdad "surge" is having an impact at reducing the overall level of violence in Iraq's capital.
Isn't two week's data a little meaningless? There's going to be a lull every time we change tactics. The advantage the insurgents possess is that they can observe the new situation and react accordingly, on their own terms.
Posted by: Pennypacker at February 19, 2007 11:33 PM (acgYa)
4
Isn't two week's data a little meaningless?
No more meaningless than say one or two bombs, or some faux-bodies burned.
Posted by: Purple Avenger at February 20, 2007 01:22 AM (HDpFt)
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No more meaningless than say one or two bombs, or some faux-bodies burned.
Huh?
Look, a single news report (if that's what you're talking about) doesn't purport to be an analysis. CY's post does pretend to be an analysis of a trend. But the data of a week or two isn't terribly interesting for you or for me.
Posted by: Pennypacker at February 21, 2007 01:02 AM (acgYa)
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CY On the Air
I'll be on KSFO 560 With Lee Rodgers & Melanie Morgan this morning, talking about the recent development in the AP's Jamil Hussein scandal, where Iraqi Interior Ministry spokesman Brigadier General Abdul-Karim Khalaf revealed that the Associated Press lied when they said he confirmed the identity of Jamil Hussein.
It turns out that AP reporters instead confirmed to General Abdul-Karim Khalaf that "Jamil Hussein" was just a pseudonym, and that the Associated Press has been lying to it's audience for weeks now, if not months.
Should make for some interesting radio.
You can listen via online streaming at 6:35 PST/9:25 EST at
KSFO 560 via the "listen now" link.
Update: 6:35 PST/9:35 EST has come and gone, so it appears I've probably been bumped. That's talk radio for you. If I end up going on the air at another time, I'll let you know.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
07:20 AM
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February 16, 2007
Democratic Change In Direction
"The bipartisan resolution today may be nonbinding, but it will send a strong message to the president: we here in Congress are committed and supporting our troops,” Pelosi said. “The passage of this legislation will signal change in direction in Iraq that will end the fighting and bring our troops home safely and soon.”
Meanwhile, U.S. and Iraqi troops faced
little resistance as they continued on security sweeps, as the number of violent deaths in Baghdad plummeted from 40-50 a day to 10.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
03:17 PM
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1
When I read of this vote I started to think, 'I'm ashamed of my country', but the government isn't the country. They're two very different things and I'm NOT ashamed of my country, I am ashamed of the Congress. Not because some of them don't support the war in Iraq but for their manner of expressing it.
Posted by: Retread at February 16, 2007 04:25 PM (mtsTe)
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With friends like Congress, who needs enemas?
Linked.
Posted by: Murdoc at February 16, 2007 04:41 PM (Naf9R)
3
The war was presented as taking down Saddam, and that happened obviously. No one in the administration talked about winning the peace, and evidently they didn't even plan for it. That part has been an unqualified fiasco. They expected a cakewalk, and Bush announced that he was done in 2003. You can come back and say he meant this that or the other, but you cannot deny, the mission is NOT accomplished. The death toll of our troops is holding steady. You say the press is concealing the good news, but there's certainly no shortage of bad news.
The administration has proved itself inept in so many ways. Lots of you all agree with this. So how can you also trust them to oversee this war? They've already made some tremendous mistakes, like disbanding the army. What better way to ensure that there are plenty of armed, angry young men roaming around? You all probably think we are acting too circumspectly in our execution of the war, but this runs contrary to established counterinsurgency operations.
Here on Pat Buchanan's website http://buchanan.org/blog/?p=669 you can read a whole series of questions by the French of all people which could not be more prescient about the war. My side feels betrayed and humiliated, and ready to wage the war on terror -- not to play peacemaker in a civil war.
As I quoted in another thread: "A Military Times poll released in December revealed that only 35 percent of military members approved of the president's handling of the war - despite the fact that 46 percent of them are self-identified Republicans (down from 60 percent in previous Military Times polls) while just 16 percent are Democrats. According to a recent Zogby survey of troops serving in Iraq, 72 percent want American forces home within a year." How can you accuse us of not supporting the troops? They increasingly see this as a mistake and no longer understand for what they are laying down their lives.
So I think you ought to be blaming Bush and his administration, not us. Bush got every single thing from congress for the first four years of the war. Most of the country is having second thoughts about the war, not just Congress. The first rule when you dig yourself into a hole is, stop digging.
Posted by: Lex Steele at February 16, 2007 06:22 PM (UCYgm)
4
but you cannot deny, the mission is NOT accomplished.
We still have troops in Germany and Japan. Is WWII not over yet?
Posted by: Purple Avenger at February 16, 2007 07:12 PM (HDpFt)
5
I agree that WWII is over, but I'm confused about your implication. I guess you mean that Saddam's fall marked the accomplishment of Bush's mission. I don't think that's what he meant. Even if it was, the mission was not worth accomplishing. Our troops are dying as frequently as ever, we're spending money as quickly as ever, and it's all we can do to hold the civil war at bay. Polls show that the great majority of Iraqis want us to leave. Our troops want to leave. Iraqis are dying and fleeing at a frightening clip. The chance of democracy taking root there is nil, and thus there will be no particular time at which we will have won. The mission was accomplished only in terms of a meaninglessly restricted definition of the mission.
Posted by: Lex Steele at February 16, 2007 08:34 PM (UCYgm)
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I guess you mean that Saddam's fall marked the accomplishment of Bush's mission.
Yea, I guess you did guess...and guessed wrongly.
Want to try again?
Posted by: Purple Avenger at February 16, 2007 10:20 PM (HDpFt)
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We still have troops in Germany and Japan. Is WWII not over yet?
You're so right. How can we forget about the daily stream of casualties coming out of war-torn... Frankfurt?
Posted by: Arbotreeist at February 16, 2007 10:29 PM (N8M1W)
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These fools. As I read about whats happening in The Middle East(hate MSM read all over)I see the powder keg that area is.Pull out could(99% sure)be the match to ignite it. Iran for one is a toothloss dog all snarl and no bite. They are at the stages of bankruptcy because they dont have the Tech. to get the oil out of the ground nor repair what well they have.The major lenders dont trust them and arent loaning to them.Since Iran went for the Saudi`s resolution for Palestine Syria is P.O. at them. The Sunni/Shiite split will blow the lid off Iraq and turn the whole Middle East into a brutal dog eat dog last man standing struggle. I dont agree with Pres. Bush`s handling of Iraq but Its working in ways the MSM wont tell us.And I want 1st choice at the Dems who voted for this crap because I have 40 acres to till and will need a few good mules when the oil dries up!!!
Posted by: Mike at February 16, 2007 10:41 PM (ag9hj)
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Without intending to be flippant, no, I don't wish to make further guesses about what your original post means.
Posted by: Lex Steele at February 16, 2007 11:12 PM (UCYgm)
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I am embarrassed by Congress. I truly hate the left for this and will never forget what I call the treason that occurred today by not allowing more troops to support our interests and those soldiers that are both fighting there and have fallen there. Who wants to fight for a country that is hell on retreat? Move over France, there's a new Congress in town.
Never forget "the betrayal of 2-16-07" in 2008.
Posted by: Jim at February 16, 2007 11:36 PM (KjJps)
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How can we forget about the daily stream of casualties
Why are they still there? BTW, there are casualties every year in Europe.
Posted by: Purple Avenger at February 16, 2007 11:48 PM (HDpFt)
12
Why are they still there?
Legacy of the Cold War. The Germans prefer us there. Russia is still something of a threat. Lots of reasons to explain that one.
BTW, there are casualties every year in Europe.
Such sophistry. There aren't casualties in Europe from IEDs, snipers, or suicide bombers. Nor were there any significant numbers after the war ended, despite the utter bullshit analogies mouthed by Condi and Dumbsfeld comparing the Iraq insurgency to the Nazi "Werewolf" myth.
Posted by: Pennypacker at February 17, 2007 01:46 AM (acgYa)
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There aren't casualties in Europe from IEDs, snipers, or suicide bombers.
None the less our soldiers die there in statistically measurable numbers every year.
Posted by: Purple Avenger at February 17, 2007 12:51 PM (HDpFt)
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None the less our soldiers die there in statistically measurable numbers every year.
They die in statistically measurable numbers in the US, too. Therefore Bagdad is no less dangerous than being stationed at Ft. Lewis. Great respect you show for the men and women fighting your war of choice.
Posted by: Pennypacker at February 17, 2007 10:48 PM (acgYa)
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"None the less our soldiers die [in Europe] in statistically measurable numbers every year."
I'm more confused than ever. What on earth is that supposed to prove?
Posted by: Lex Steele at February 17, 2007 11:03 PM (UCYgm)
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The American people no longer support the war in Iraq. In view of that how long should we make our soldiers and marines stay and die there?
Posted by: jOHN RYAN at February 17, 2007 11:58 PM (TcoRJ)
17
"The American people no longer support the war in Iraq. In view of that how long should we make our soldiers and marines stay and die there?"
How about until there are no jihadis left to kill.
Posted by: moon6 at February 18, 2007 12:17 AM (qmM4O)
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How about until there are no jihadis left to kill.
If you really believe we're in a fight to eradicate every jihadi in the ME and presumably beyond, then surely you are in favor of:
* Pre-1945 taxes on the wealthy to fund the effort.
* Reinstating the draft in order to garrison Iraq (and, increasingly, Afghanistan) with an adequate occupation force, ie, proportional to Iraq to the allied forces which subdued resistance in 1945 Germany.
* Nationalizing the defense industry to produce adequate war materiel.
C'mon, put on your big girl panties and get behind this.
Posted by: Pennypacker at February 18, 2007 12:52 AM (acgYa)
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Therefore Bagdad is no less dangerous than being stationed at Ft. Lewis.
Your words, not mine.
Posted by: Purple Avenger at February 18, 2007 02:55 AM (HDpFt)
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Purple Avenger --
"Therefore Bagdad is no less dangerous than being stationed at Ft. Lewis."
"Your words, not mine."
Even if this were true, it doesn't prove anything -- we are as a nation responsible for the deaths of soldiers in Iraq. We aren't responsible for the accidental deaths of troops who are not in combat.
Pennypacker -- come on man, the less gov't taxes the rich, the stronger the economy. Trust the Republicans, they're the party of fiscal responsibility. Paris Hilton should receive her inheritance tax free while you and I hand over a third or our income.
Posted by: Lex Steele at February 18, 2007 09:06 AM (UCYgm)
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Lex,
Your last post shows your obvious lack of knowledge of who pays the most in taxes in our country. Turns out that the top 5% of income earners pay 50% of the taxes in this country. See here - date from Government Sources.But hey - who said you know anything beyond BDS.
As to the assertions that American Troops are dying in as big of numbers as the beginning - well, there have been ups and downs. But the trend is down. How do you explain that?
As to the "end of major military" actions, well, that was a phase also. Remember that tactical objectives change. Stop looking at things as a "point in time", but rather as a "continuum". Remember these problems we face in the middle east DID NOT START WITH BUSH II! You can look back at least as far as Carter and see the problems building. Have we made mistakes along the way? Of course - on both sides of the aisle. Major mistakes. But simply having BDS does not make your solutions correct. Sorry.
Posted by: Specter at February 18, 2007 12:07 PM (ybfXM)
22
If you really believe we're in a fight to eradicate every jihadi in the ME and presumably beyond, then surely you are in favor of:
* Pre-1945 taxes on the wealthy to fund the effort.
* Reinstating the draft in order to garrison Iraq (and, increasingly, Afghanistan) with an adequate occupation force, ie, proportional to Iraq to the allied forces which subdued resistance in 1945 Germany.
* Nationalizing the defense industry to produce adequate war materiel.
C'mon, put on your big girl panties and get behind this.
Well, yes, we are in that fight, and we didn't start it.
If we need to raise taxes, then yes we should do so, although everyone should share the burden, not just the wealthy.
I actually think reinstituting the draft would send the right signal to our enemies (that we are serious) but the military leaders don't want one, they are very happy with their volunteer force, so I defer to their judgment.
Nationalizing industries is preposterous. I think it is adequately proven by history that communism doesn't work.
Regarding your panties remark, I have not been rude, please do not insult me again.
Posted by: moon6 at February 18, 2007 12:57 PM (qmM4O)
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Specter:
"Your last post shows your obvious lack of knowledge of who pays the most in taxes in our country. Turns out that the top 5% of income earners pay 50% of the taxes in this country."
Warren Buffet has said on a number of occasions that he pays a lower tax rate than the people who work in his office. It also seems wrong to me that Paris Hilton will receive millions of dollars at a very low tax rate, whereas I pay tax on all the income I receive. Your figures don't even address that, much less disprove it. You're welcome to disagree with me, but you're not even addressing my argument.
"As to the assertions that American Troops are dying in as big of numbers as the beginning - well, there have been ups and downs. But the trend is down. How do you explain that?"
The figures bear me out, and prove that you are at best ill informed: http://icasualties.org/oif/
"As to the 'end of major military' actions, well, that was a phase also. Remember that tactical objectives change. Stop looking at things as a 'point in time', but rather as a 'continuum'...."
What a load. Just a like a defense lawyer without a compelling defense, you are trying to muddy the waters. This is not complicated. Bush has all our military might pinned down in a nation that had no capacity to harm us and no ties to Al Qaeda or 911. There is zero possible upside for the US, yet we are losing our finest and 8 billion dollars per month. Read Pat Buchanan or William Odom or Brent Scowcroft or Anthony Zinni or etc etc. You are the one who is deranged in your unwavering support for this slow motion disaster.
Posted by: Lex Steele at February 18, 2007 02:16 PM (UCYgm)
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I actually think reinstituting the draft would send the right signal to our enemies
I think it would encourage them -- they know how to defeat conscript armies.
Posted by: Purple Avenger at February 18, 2007 03:23 PM (HDpFt)
25
Lex,
Jut like all BDS'ers you refuse to recognize history. So I'll go along with you for satire's sake. Yep - everything is Bush's fault. Everything. Katrina, levees, Iraq, Iran, Israel, Lebanon, strongest economy in 40 years, Foley, Jefferson, Chappaquidick, Reid's wonderful real estate deals, Hillary's future trading, the Iranian take over of our embassy, Operation Desert Fox, the Iraq Liberation Bill, everything. And the ME east problems all started the day that he took office. Yep. Real compelling evidence ya got there. Guffaw....
As for being misinformed about casualty rates and the trend lines, I think you should go back and study your data. There are two distinct phases - the liberation war and then the insurgency. And even though the last few months have been hard, the trend line has either stayed flat, or slightly declined during the insurgency phase. Losses were much lower during actual combat/war operations. Try mapping from the time the insurgency started ramping up. But since it involves historical fact, I assume that you will ignore it also.
Now - would you mind stating for the record where you came up with the "fact" that all of our military might is pinned down in Iraq? Give some evidence of that Lex. Bet you can't - other than wive's tales propagating through the 'sphere.
Bet you vote for Hillary....
Posted by: Specter at February 18, 2007 04:46 PM (ybfXM)
26
I think it would encourage them -- they know how to defeat conscript armies.
Interesting thought. Do you mean the Soviets and how they got run out of Afghanistan? I would like to think that even a conscript U.S. force would perform better than that.
I remember at that time Soviet troops posted to outlying bases had a real chance of starving to death.
Or what did you mean?
Posted by: moon6 at February 18, 2007 04:49 PM (qmM4O)
27
Specter:
Here's what you said: "As to the assertions that American Troops are dying in as big of numbers as the beginning - well, there have been ups and downs. But the trend is down. How do you explain that?"
This is flatly, plainly, demonstrably wrong. The trend is not down in any sense: The past six months have each shown coalition death rates above the average of the war as a whole (2.73 per day).
At first you could at least claim you were ignorant; now you're demonstrating that you are not intelligent as well.
Posted by: Lex Steele at February 18, 2007 05:07 PM (UCYgm)
28
I made two mistakes in my last post: the last 5.5 months have shown above average casualty rates, not 6 months; also, the average deaths per day is 2.37, not 2.73.
Posted by: Lex Steele at February 18, 2007 05:15 PM (UCYgm)
29
Lex,
Do you know how to plot a trend line? Try it. You might find yourself educated. What a dipstick. You don't even have to use the the least squares method. BTW - the insurgency hasn't just been over the last 5.5 months. Try like two + years. Give it a shot - you might actually learn something outside of BDS.
I notice you didn't post any links to the rest of your BS. Why is that I wonder?
Posted by: Specter at February 18, 2007 08:12 PM (ybfXM)
30
Specter: Below is the data so everyone can appreciate your analysis. In your last three posts you demonstrated ignorance, then a lack of intelligence, and finally clownhood. We await your next move with keen interest. I'm guessing you won't be able to top yourself yet again, but I'm hopeful. Why don't you use the least squares method?
Period Avg Deaths Days
============================
2-2007 3.06 18
1-2007 2.77 31
12-2006 3.71 31
11-2006 2.57 30
10-2006 3.55 31
9-2006 2.57 30
8-2006 2.13 31
7-2006 1.48 31
6-2006 2.1 30
5-2006 2.55 31
4-2006 2.73 30
3-2006 1.06 31
2-2006 2.07 28
1-2006 2.06 31
12-2005 2.19 31
11-2005 2.87 30
10-2005 3.19 31
9-2005 1.73 30
8-2005 2.74 31
7-2005 1.87 31
6-2005 2.77 30
5-2005 2.84 31
4-2005 1.73 30
3-2005 1.26 31
2-2005 2.14 28
1-2005 4.1 31
12-2004 2.45 31
11-2004 4.7 30
10-2004 2.16 31
9-2004 2.9 30
8-2004 2.42 31
7-2004 1.87 31
6-2004 1.67 30
5-2004 2.71 31
4-2004 4.67 30
3-2004 1.68 31
2-2004 0.79 29
1-2004 1.68 31
12-2003 1.55 31
11-2003 3.67 30
10-2003 1.52 31
9-2003 1.1 30
8-2003 1.39 31
7-2003 1.58 31
6-2003 1.2 30
5-2003 1.32 31
4-2003 2.67 30
3-2003 7.67 12
--------------------------
Total 2.37 1432
Posted by: Lex Steele at February 18, 2007 10:02 PM (UCYgm)
31
Being somewhat faceteous, it might be safer for our troops to stay in Iraq than to be returned home.
According to data at disastercenter,com, between 2003 and 2005, pick any group of US states whose population adds up to Iraq's and our non-terrorist, non-war, peaceful cities kill more Americans than we are losing in combat.
(All not counting 2006 numbers)
Washington D.C. - 642 murders
New York State - 2697 murders
New Jersey - 1215 murders
(3464 murders)
or
Michigan - 1871 murders
New York - 2697 murders
(4568 murders)
or
California - 7302 murders
(California is larger than Iraq, so if we scale it down proportionately, we come up with 5673 murders.)
My point is, as tragic as the losses we have suffered in Iraq are, just living in this country doesn't seem to be a guarantee to save any more lives. On the national news, we hear about every single soldier that dies. It would be only fair if the national news also report every single murder that occurs in our country - just to keep all of this in perspective.
ANY time we send our troops into harm's way, we should have NO OTHER objective than victory.
Regardless of who sends the troops into harm's way, once they are there, we should have NO OTHER objective than victory.
The Democrats have shown that they apparently have more important things to worry about than actually supporting our troops - in every way - while they are in harm's way.
There is no excuse. The country deserves better, the troops especially deserve better.
Posted by: SouthernRoots at February 18, 2007 10:06 PM (EsOdX)
32
It's not our responsibility when soldiers who die in accidents here at home, but it is when they lay down their lives in combat.
The majority of Iraqis, US citizens, and US soldiers in Iraq want us to leave. No matter how many more troops die there ain't gonna be democracy in Iraq -- so they can't win. You're not supporting the troops, you're getting them killed for a neocon dream.
Posted by: Lex Steele at February 18, 2007 10:27 PM (UCYgm)
33
Lex,
Gee - thanks for actually cutting and pasting date you linked to earlier. Now plot it. I dare you. I did. Try taking it from two years plus back when the insurgency began to gain strength. You will find that the trend line is down, or flat, depending on where you begin. Try it. Don't criticize me when you obviously have not done the mathematical analysis.
First off - you can't use Feb, 07 data because it is not a full month. So using the 5 months previous is an average of 3.03 per day. But if you go back 12 months, the average drops to 2.44. If you go back 24 months, the average is 2.36. Seriously - go back and plot a trend line from where you consider the beginning of the insurgency and see what you come up with. You might be surprised.
You report that for the last 5.5 months, the deaths have been up. I did not even question that - Of course that covers the time frame of our national elections and you will note that Al Quaeda, Iran, and other terrorist sponsors congratulated the US for electing the Dims. Do you think that maybe, just maybe, that the terrorists (what you would term "freedom fighters") planned that to have a propaganda effect on the US? Look at the months the upsurge began. Don't just parrot information at me. Study it and analyze it. Are you even capable of that? Since you have just spewed the data back at me, I would guess that you are not. Here's a hint. Use MS Excel - it will plot the TREND LINE for you. Simple.
Where are those links to all of your other BS? Haven't seen them yet.
Posted by: Specter at February 18, 2007 10:40 PM (ybfXM)
34
Lex,
Where is your proof that the majority of soldiers in Iraq want us to leave? Point to a specific. I know for a fact that you can't. It is simple conflation on your part.
I will grant that most Americans do not like the war in Iraq, but most do believe it is a top priority. But why is it that in the AP/IPSOS poll from November 17, 2007 (which is the last time the question was asked - I can give you a link, but it is subscribers only)showed that 56% of Americans believed that the Dims have NO PLAN for Iraq. None. Nada. It wasn't LEAVE Iraq. It was CHANGE DIRECTION. See - you keep posting wives tales (IOW - DU and KOS talking points) without any FACTS to back you up. Get a grip.
Posted by: Specter at February 18, 2007 10:48 PM (ybfXM)
35
OOPs...that was November 14, 2006 not 2007.
Posted by: Specter at February 18, 2007 10:48 PM (ybfXM)
36
BTW Lex - believe it or not, there is a Democracy in Iraq. They had elections and even have a Constitution. Imagine that. There already is a Democracy when you said:
there ain't gonna be democracy in Iraq
Wow. You were wrong. How could that happen?
Is it a stable Democracy? No. Is it moving that way? Yes. Will it be difficult? Yes. But let me ask you this oh intelligent one. How long after the American Revolution did we take to establish our current form of government? Do you know?
BTW - You were just smacked down oh great wonder (and I mean I really do wonder) of intelligence.
Posted by: Specter at February 18, 2007 10:53 PM (ybfXM)
37
Specter: "So using the 5 months previous is an average of 3.03 per day. But if you go back 12 months, the average drops to 2.44. If you go back 24 months, the average is 2.36."
By god you pulled it off. You continue to amaze, and my hat is off. Unfortunately I don't have a title better than 'clown', but you are certainly owed it. You just demonstrated that the trailing five months were more deadly on average than the trailing twelve months, and similarly that the trailing 12 months were more deadly on average that the trailing 24 months. I'm sorry you can't understand this, you'll just have to take my word when I say that this is not a declining death toll. Keep your eyes on the prize: "As to the assertions that American Troops are dying in as big of numbers as the beginning - well, there have been ups and downs. But the trend is down."
Incidentally Excel trendlines do not qualify as 'mathematical analysis'. Try out the various types of trend lines that Excel can make. You can play a trend line like a guitar string.
I'm dying to see your next installment. Please, please, break out the least squares method! I've got a good feeling about this one.
Posted by: Lex Steele at February 18, 2007 11:33 PM (UCYgm)
38
Lex,
I actually have a degree in mathematics and physics, and design mathematics curricula. Can you say the same? You still ignore the fact that the TREND is down, or at worst flat. Have you mapped it yet? Bet not. And I notice you didn't answer any of my questions as to why we would see such an increase of activity over the last few months. Is that because you have no answers? I suspect so. I suspect that you have not thought beyond the bounds of your BDS to attempt to understand the real world. So be it.
But you keep attempting to conflate 5 months with the entire length of the insurgency. That is dishonest. Sorry - but it is clearly the symptom of someone affected by BDS. The insurgency did not start 5.5 months ago. Get a grip. The fact is that the numbers you post prove my point (even excepting the fact that you left out the raw data and used only the averages). I simply tried to point out that you are using a statistically invalid sample to prove your point about the deaths due to the insurgency. I could do the same thing by using the 5.5 lowest casualty months and show that you are wrong. But that would be dishonest like you are being. Remember when I told you that you should look at a continuum in time rather than a snap shot? Same principle applies here.
Where are all those links to proof of all the other BS you posted? We are all waiting anxiously for them. But I'm not holding my breath because I know you have nothing to back any of it up. Nothing. Nada. Empty Wind Bag.
Posted by: Specter at February 18, 2007 11:54 PM (ybfXM)
39
That was a bit of a let down. You're more fun when you do 'mathematical analysis'. However in all fairness I had no right to expect you to hit the high notes time and time again. You wish to believe that an increase in average deaths per day constitutes a downward trend and I respect your decision.
You won't do your least squares method if I ask nicely will you?
Posted by: Lex Steele at February 19, 2007 12:11 AM (UCYgm)
40
BTW Lex,
Here is the data from a week old poll done by Investor Business Daily. I am not sure how the demographics of the poll were done - IOW if it was oversampled one way or another (as is done regularly by AP, IPSOS, CNN, Newsweak, etc - who all oversample Dims). You can read the article here.
How important is a U.S. victory in Iraq?
Very important 42%
Somewhat important 24%
Not very important 17%
Not at all important 13%
Not sure 5%
Refused 1%
Important By Party
Democrats 53%
Republicans 85%
Independent/other 63%
How hopeful are you that we will succeed?
Very hopeful 35%
Somewhat hopeful 23%
Not very hopeful 21%
Not at all hopeful 19%
Not sure 2%
Refused 1%
Hopeful by Party
Democrats 43%
Republicans 80%
Independent/other 53%
Seems to knock a big hole in your earlier arguments, doesn't it? I mean 66% of Americans believe that victory in Iraq is important. How does that comport with your assertion that the majority of Americans want to pull out? It doesn't. It more accurately reflects my statement that most Americans want us to change direction, not simply leave (remember I asked you to back up your statement and you didn't?).
Imagine that. And not only that, but 58% of Americans are hopeful that we will succeed in Iraq. Wow. Smacked down again.....
Posted by: Specter at February 19, 2007 12:24 AM (ybfXM)
41
Lex,
Do the math. Are you able? Take the data you posted (or more aptly the actual monthly data) and create a trend line analysis on it. Whatever method you choose for the line. Then come back and tell me the trend is up. But back that up with your starting month and the reason you picked that month. Remember that it should roughly coincide with the beginning of the upsurge in the insurgency in Iraq. Be honest now. Other than one link you posted I have shown that you aren't - at least so far. But come on - do some analysis and then come back.
Posted by: Specter at February 19, 2007 12:27 AM (ybfXM)
42
Gawwwd I love using FACTS on Dimwits. They can't find FACTS of their own to rebut my data, but they continue to say, "I'm right because I say I am." Kinda like Lex. LOL
Posted by: Specter at February 19, 2007 12:31 AM (ybfXM)
43
You did the math for me, Specter: the last five months were deadlier on average than the previous twelve, and the previous twelve more deadly on average than the previous 24 months. You told me this yourself. To you that's a decrease, to me it's an increase. We'll have to agree to disagree.
I can't help that you find it 'dishonest' when I quote you, or that you believe I have cherry picked certain periods to prove my point. I mentioned 5.5 months simply because that is how long it has been since we had a month of below-average fatalities.
It is drivel when you say that certain events have temporarily skewed the trend. We are talking about reality in all its complexity, not your Excel Trend Line version of it.
Posted by: Lex Steele at February 19, 2007 12:53 AM (UCYgm)
44
Lex,
You truly do not know math do you. What I posted was that the average for 5 months was 3.03. For 12 months (which included the 5 months) it was 2.44. For 24 months (including the 5 months and the 12 months) it was 2.3. That is not trend. I just shows that the number of average deaths overall is lower than what you claim.
Truly - I know why you won't do the trend line analysis. It is because you know I am right. You're too afraid to be proved wrong. So be it. What a maroon....
Posted by: Specter at February 19, 2007 01:07 PM (ybfXM)
45
Lex,
BTW - still waiting for all those links to the other crap you spewed forth. When do we get to see all of that?
Posted by: Specter at February 19, 2007 01:09 PM (ybfXM)
46
Sorry, I'm not going to oblige you by changing the subject, though I understand why you want to. Your 'mathematical analysis' is a seemingly bottomless cup of joy.
Posted by: Lex Steele at February 19, 2007 01:38 PM (tzgpS)
47
"What I posted was that the average for 5 months was 3.03. For 12 months (which included the 5 months) it was 2.44. For 24 months (including the 5 months and the 12 months) it was 2.3."
Bang! Just when I was sure the tap had run dry.
Just out of curiosity, I wonder what is your answer to the following conundrum. Since you 'design math curricula' I'll phrase it as a word problem:
During the last two years, Ms. Smith received an average of one apple per day. During the last year, Ms. Smith received an average of two apples per day. During the last six months, Ms. Smith received an average of 3 apples per day. Question: is the number of apples that Ms. Smith receives:
a) trending UPWARDS
b) trending DOWNWARDS
c) do not have adequate information to answer the question
At first I thought you would answer b), but now I'm thinking you are leaning towards c). So which is it?
Posted by: Lex Steele at February 19, 2007 02:20 PM (tzgpS)
48
Ah but Lex, you are missing the point. Let me see if I can be any more blunt about it. You picked 5 months of the insurgency to show that over that time frame the death rate has been increasing. Fine. But you still have not admitted that the insurgency did not start 5 months ago. It started over two years ago. All I am saying, and have said, is that you must take all of the other months into account when you claim that things are trending one way or another. IOW - your sample is statistically invalid. Why are you afraid to plot the data?
BTW - Not trying to change the subject JugHead. Simply continuing to ask for proof of all the things YOU BROUGHT UP AS PROOF OF YOUR POSITION. You are the one who posted all of the BS. I simply asked that you back it up. And it has been a part of every post to you since I started. You are trying to make it sound like out of the blue I just came up with that. Very, very dishonest JugHead. But what do I expect from BDSers. Nothing more than that. You are obviously as afraid of trying to prove all of your other assertions as you are of plotting the data.
Posted by: Specter at February 19, 2007 04:34 PM (ybfXM)
49
"But you still have not admitted that the insurgency did not start 5 months ago."
Of course it didn't, but I never said anything like that. The only reason I mentioned 5.5 months is that's how long it's been since we had a below-average month of fatalities.
Is it a), b) or c)? Surely that's an easy question for a man with advanced degrees in math and physics.
Posted by: Lex Steele at February 19, 2007 04:59 PM (tzgpS)
50
Also, you demonstrated yourself that average fatalities have been on the increase over two years, or half the duration of the war. Surely you don't represent that as a downturn?
Posted by: Lex Steele at February 19, 2007 05:03 PM (tzgpS)
51
Lex said:
Pennypacker -- come on man, the less gov't taxes the rich, the stronger the economy. Trust the Republicans, they're the party of fiscal responsibility. Paris Hilton should receive her inheritance tax free while you and I hand over a third or our income.
I replied with:
our last post shows your obvious lack of knowledge of who pays the most in taxes in our country. Turns out that the top 5% of income earners pay 50% of the taxes in this country. See here - date from Government Sources.But hey - who said you know anything beyond BDS.
Specific proof that Lex could only counter with some other inane comment about Paris Hilton. Such strength in that argument.
Lex then said:
Bush has all our military might pinned down in a nation that had no capacity to harm us and no ties to Al Qaeda or 911.
This is a typical BDS talking point straight from KOS and DU. So I asked in the very next post:
Now - would you mind stating for the record where you came up with the "fact" that all of our military might is pinned down in Iraq? Give some evidence of that Lex. Bet you can't - other than wive's tales propagating through the 'sphere.
But Lex, as usual for a BDSer, ignored the question. JugHead stuck to his guns though. Even though he ignored all challenges to his other random rantings he came back with the average death per day for the entire engagement in Iraq (not broken into phases like I asked), and the rate for the last 5.5 months.
So I asked this:
BTW - the insurgency hasn't just been over the last 5.5 months. Try like two + years. Give it a shot - you might actually learn something outside of BDS.
I notice you didn't post any links to the rest of your BS. Why is that I wonder?
Note the talking points. 1. Why aren't you using all the data, and 2) where's the proof of your other misstatements.
Not to be outdone (as if that wasn't hard to do), Lex cut and pasted the data he had already linked to on the death rates. However, since he is obviously not up to the challenge of plotting the data he took the BDSer route of calling names:
In your last three posts you demonstrated ignorance, then a lack of intelligence, and finally clownhood.
CY - Wasn 't there another troll here a while back that called everybody clowns? It wasn't that long ago.
At any rate, JugHead decided to show us his intelligence level with this post:
The majority of Iraqis, US citizens, and US soldiers in Iraq want us to leave. No matter how many more troops die there ain't gonna be democracy in Iraq -- so they can't win.
In response to the above I asked:
Where are those links to all of your other BS? Haven't seen them yet.
And getting more specific I asked:
Where is your proof that the majority of soldiers in Iraq want us to leave? Point to a specific. I know for a fact that you can't.
In that post I pointed out that most Americans do not like the war, but did not vote to LEAVE Iraq, but to change direction. I also pointed to an AP/IPSOS poll that showed that 56% of Americans feel the Dims have NO PLAN for Iraq. Next I pointed this out:
BTW Lex - believe it or not, there is a Democracy in Iraq. They had elections and even have a Constitution. Imagine that. There already is a Democracy when you said:
there ain't gonna be democracy in Iraq
Wow. You were wrong. How could that happen?
But Lex didn't bother to back up any of his statements. He kept staying with just 5.5 months of death rates in Iraq and kept trying to call me incompetent because I use all the data instead of the cherry-picking he relies on. I even told him I had no problem seeing that the data from the last few months is up (tend from 2.8 to 3.2). I thought maybe he would understand that I admitted that. But no, he keeps gnawing on it like a dog on a pig's ear. I kept pointing out to him that the 5 months is a statistically invalid sample.
Next, in response to JugHead's blatant misstatement that most US citizens want us to leave Iraq (another BDS talking point) I linked to and posted data from a recent poll. It showed that 66% of Americans believe that victory in Iraq is important, and that 58% are hopeful for a victory. Real data that directly refuted JugHead's previous posts. But did he take up the challenge? No. Still gnawing on that ear.
Then I asked again for Lexxy to back up his statements:
BTW - still waiting for all those links to the other crap you spewed forth. When do we get to see all of that?
But rather than try, JugHead decided to suggest that I was trying to change the subject. How sad isn't it? I've only been asking him to back up the statement he made, and it seems he can't. Rather impotent for a forum dweller.
Posted by: Specter at February 19, 2007 05:10 PM (ybfXM)
Posted by: Lex Steele at February 19, 2007 05:12 PM (tzgpS)
53
No Lex,
With the averages I demonstrated that if you take all of the data into question, the death rate is not over 3. It is not a trend analysis. Simple averages. But have you plotted the data yet. I would suggest as a starting point the month we captured Saddam. Try it. See what happens.
Posted by: Specter at February 19, 2007 05:13 PM (ybfXM)
54
You're unwilling to answer a simple arithmetic question, yet I'm 'impotent' for not providing you with links. If you argue about your own arithmetic, there's no hope for you to read links with an unbiased mind. You're not so much fun any more with the "Mr. Indignant" bit. See you around, and thanks for the good times.
Posted by: Lex Steele at February 19, 2007 05:17 PM (tzgpS)
55
Lex,
Try reading this. It fits you to a tee.
I did the math Jughead. You didn't. I also asked you to back up your statements. You have just admitted you can't. Sorry to see you go...NOT! Troll!
Posted by: Specter at February 19, 2007 05:23 PM (ybfXM)
56
a, b, or c? That IS your math, so why not answer the question?
"With the averages I demonstrated that if you take all of the data into question, the death rate is not over 3." Sure, that's what you meant.
Fascinating web page you linked to. I think I understand: Republicans are all truth and light, Democrats are evil and stupid. Such a bold philosophy!
I didn't admit anything of the kind. Anyway, why should I pollute such a beautiful thread?
Don't worry, I'm not going.
a, b, or c? Which is it?
Posted by: Lex Steele at February 19, 2007 05:33 PM (/RSUi)
57
Rules of Disinformation Lex. That is what you use. Plot the data Lex. Answer the questions Lex. C'mon - for someone who thinks they have such high intelligence you should be able to come up with one link that proves one of your rambling points. Just one? It's put up or shut up time Jughead.
Posted by: Specter at February 19, 2007 05:40 PM (ybfXM)
58
So fascinating, this discussion (Zzzzzzzzzzzz).
I'm still waiting for Specter or Moon6 or anyone to explain, using their characteristic mathematical vigor, how 2-3 soldier deaths per day is typical for forces in Europe or, say, North Carolina. In fact, in honor of our host, feel free to take Ft Bragg and its ~30K population as our statistical model and adjust accordingly. Go to town.
Posted by: Pennypacker at February 19, 2007 11:18 PM (acgYa)
59
For anyone who still cares, I graphed the averages by month (plotting the death totals by month doesn't make sense, as the lengths of months differ). It's interesting to see the timeline as compared to world events.
The trend over the last year is unmistakably up, as Specter inadvertently demonstrated with his average calculations. A child who looked at the graph of the last year would know that it's trending up, and that's a quarter of the war.
Posted by: Lex Steele at February 20, 2007 12:25 AM (/RSUi)
60
Go to the beginning of the insurgency dipstick. Try it. You got almost halfway there.
penny - the biggest post is the number of people killed in civil unrest (ie. murders) here in the US. It is far larger than the deaths of US soldiers in Iraq.
Where's all you other evidence for your other assertions Lex? C'mon oh brilliant one. You can do it. Just one.
Posted by: Specter at February 20, 2007 10:30 AM (ybfXM)
61
Even better....Here is an article dated April 26, 2006. It states (emphasis mine):
A man believed to be al-Qaida's leader in Iraq, Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, yesterday showed his face publicly for the first time since the insurgency began three years ago.
C'mon Lex...you are part way there. Take your numbers and put them back 3 years ago and take a trend. Then come back and apologize. All I said all along was that you need to take the issue as a whole, not a snapshot in time. You attempt to ridicule me for using proper analysis techniques. Get a grip.
Posted by: Specter at February 20, 2007 10:37 AM (ybfXM)
62
OOPs...forgot to add my standard request for the data backing all of your other random BDS/KOS assertions. Where are they Lex? I'm not changing the subject - just asking for you to back up all your other BS. Got anything at all? Put up or shut up.....
Posted by: Specter at February 20, 2007 10:39 AM (ybfXM)
63
Even more...Remember I suggested you start plotting from the time Hussein was captured. According to CNN the date was about 12/15/2003. Try plotting from there oh intelligent JugHead. You might be surprised.
Posted by: Specter at February 20, 2007 10:51 AM (ybfXM)
64
See JugHead - actual proof of my assertions. Unlike a lot of your unbacked drivel. Links and all....Wow. Imagine being able to use facts (and I know you can only imagine it since you seem unable to actually do it) to prove a point. Incredible. It must seem like another world to a BDSer like you.
Posted by: Specter at February 20, 2007 10:53 AM (ybfXM)
65
Specter: the insults of the people who don't understand arithmetic are especially hurtful.
The pronounced uptick over the last year is a trend to me. In all fairness, maybe I need to walk a mile in your big floppy shoes and round red nose before I can understand where you're coming from.
Posted by: Lex Steele at February 20, 2007 12:59 PM (/RSUi)
66
penny - the biggest post is the number of people killed in civil unrest (ie. murders) here in the US. It is far larger than the deaths of US soldiers in Iraq.
This response is almost incomprehensible.
Look, the statistical base for the whole US is 300 million people. Sure, the absolute number of violent deaths per day is, yeah, a lot bigger for that population than the number of violent deaths among US soldiers (140K) in Iraq.
Be honest -- you have to take the average per day violent death of an American base in the US or Europe. I'll just sit back here waiting for your results, listening to the tumbleweeds rolling by.
Posted by: Pennypacker at February 21, 2007 12:34 AM (acgYa)
67
Pennypacker: are you sure you want to go into the statistics stuff? Your interlocutor said I was wrong about the US death toll in Iraq increasing, and to prove his point he said:
"So using the 5 months previous is an average of 3.03 per day. But if you go back 12 months, the average drops to 2.44. If you go back 24 months, the average is 2.36."
Either he doesn't understand the implication of this, or won't admit it, I'm not sure which. Instead he says I'm being dishonest to quote him, and that I have Bush Derangement Syndrome.
Speaking of BDS, Richard Mellon Scaife -- the guy who spent two million dollars of his own money investigating every facet of Bill Clinton's history -- is so disgusted with Bush that he's decided Clinton was not such a bad president. A Republican president who makes Scaife miss Clinton is an astonishment indeed.
Posted by: Lex Steele at February 21, 2007 01:05 AM (/RSUi)
68
Pennypacker: are you sure you want to go into the statistics stuff?
No, I'm not. Last time I asked for an even comparison, they conflated it to "the number of all deaths in the US is greater than..." We should pity them, these are the straws they cling to.
Posted by: Pennypacker at February 21, 2007 01:37 AM (acgYa)
69
Re "these are the straws they cling to": here's as good a nutshell version of the pro-war argument as you're likely to find:
http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/archives/individual/2007_02/010765.php
Posted by: Lex Steele at February 21, 2007 02:13 AM (/RSUi)
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A Bad Place to Regroup
One doesn't have to be von Clausewitz to figure out that when folks start shooting at you, taking cover behind something that will stop bullets and shrapnel is probably in your best interests.
Taking cover
within a concave bucket of a front-end loader that could deflect incoming fire into your body, though... probably not the best idea.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
03:03 PM
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I'd say that depends entirely on where the fire is coming from...
Posted by: SGT Jeff (USAR) at February 16, 2007 03:27 PM (yiMNP)
2
Well, if the fire was coming from an arc anywhere near the photographer's position, he is completely exposed, and rounds hitting the bucket could deflect into his body. If he is expecting fire or an assault from behind him, from the direction his fellow soldiers seem to be looking, then he is absolutely out of position to be of any use at all, as he can neither see nor fight.
Of course, a photo is just a split second of time, and it is quite possible that this photographer snapped the picture as this soldier was moving from another position.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at February 16, 2007 03:38 PM (g5Nba)
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From the positioning of the other soldiers, it would appear that he was in the right location for taking fire.
Also, after enlarging the picture, I noted that the soldier in the "loader" actually appears to be clearing a jammed weapon or reloading. The right side of the weapon clearly has his attention. Note the position of his head relative to the weapon. I would say the fire is coming from the left side of the photo, somewhere between the buildings--in relation to the two soldiers by the rear tire. The one on the outside is looking towards the direction of the fire, while the other has his had on his shoulder and is looking to their right (either at other units or perhaps making sure there is no threat in that direction.
Personally, that's my take on the photo. I seriously doubt that the photographer has his side or back to the fire. I believe the source of any fire is behind the front-end loader (from the photographer's perspective).
Posted by: WB at February 16, 2007 06:41 PM (0SlsT)
4
if the fire was coming from an arc anywhere near the photographer's position, he is completely exposed
...and the photog is taking rounds in the back and head.
Posted by: Purple Avenger at February 16, 2007 10:23 PM (HDpFt)
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What everyone else said. The fire is coming from the direction the two kneeling soldiers are facing (probably someone firing from between the trucks in the background or some other hidey-hole out of the range of the camera), and it looks like the person in the bucket is frantically working to re-load or unjam a weapon. Also once he's done doing whatever it is he's doing, he would be in good position to provide cover for the two kneeling who are exposed.
On another topic, it would suck to operate that end loader with all the armor. I'ts hard enough to see what you're doing when the cab is mostly glass.
Posted by: anonymous at February 17, 2007 09:22 AM (lWy70)
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I Hate You; Why Don't You Like Me?
For whatever reason, Salon.com picked up Amanda Marcotte's latest blameshifting attempt at dodging responsibility for her long track record of anti-Christian bigotry.
Marcotte is as tedious, suspicious, angrily self-righteous, and blissfully unaware of her own culpability as we've come to expect. Following her same tired script, she blames the "patriarchy" and the "right wing smear machine" for her downfall.
Frankly, I'd skip the article itself and read the other
blog reaction to the article. Marcotte can't quite seem to grasp that she came under fire as a result of her own bitter words, taken in context.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
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Dan Gerstein's article
(http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0207/2787.html)
over at Politico magazine sums this up perfectly:
"Throughout the course of the controversy, the left’s bigger digital diatribers never stopped to address the substance of what the Edwards bloggers actually wrote before joining the campaign. Had the bloggers done so, they might have found the postings were widely deemed by Democrats and Republicans alike as bigoted and patently offensive to many Christians, not just devout Catholics or evangelicals.
Nor did they ever stop to think how hollow and hypocritical it sounded for the same people who ravaged George Allen, for his “macaca” moment in last year’s Virginia Senate campaign to cry “free speech” when confronted with a far more nasty, vulgar, and hurtful display of prejudice from two of their own."
Just on their political record alone, the triangulatin' Dems ought to have figured out by now that the nutroots exist to drag the party into oblivion, and as long as candidates keep attributing anything other than sheer horror to the notion that they are being backed by the Kossacks, they can't touch the White House.
Notice that even with his mid 30's approval rating as a lame duck, Bush is still setting both the domestic and foreign policy agendas at every turn and the Dems are reduced to meaningless non-binding non-attacks.
So far all the nutroots have managed to do is destroy the political careers of Howard Dean, Ned Lamont, and now John Edwards. Shouldn't that be enough for both the bloggers AND the Dems to figure out that they are clearly doing something horrendously wrong?
Posted by: Jared at February 17, 2007 10:25 AM (4xUWs)
2
Shouldn't that be enough for both the bloggers AND the Dems to figure out that they are clearly doing something horrendously wrong?
You'll rarely go wrong betting on tone-deaf stupidity from democrats.
Posted by: Purple Avenger at February 17, 2007 09:48 PM (HDpFt)
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February 15, 2007
Iraqi General Disputes AP Claim on Jamil Hussein
Note: This is a background article to the exclusive posted today at Pajamas Media.
From the very beginning of the controversy surrounding the Associated Press' coverage of a series of Shia militia attacks on Sunni homes and mosques in the Hurriyah neighborhood of Baghdad on November 24, 2006, Iraqi government officials, Multi-National Corps-Iraq, and bloggers have questioned the identity of one of the primary Associated Press sources for the accounts, an Iraqi Police Captain called Jamil Hussein.
The controversy erupted after the Public Affairs Office of Multi-National Corps-Iraq
disputed claims made in the Associated Press articles, which claimed that four Sunni mosques in Hurriyah were "burned and blew up," and that 24 people had been killed in the attacks.
According an
AP article released on November 24:
Revenge-seeking Shi'ite militiamen grabbed six Sunnis as they left Friday worship services, doused them with kerosene and burned them alive near an Iraqi army post. The soldiers did not intervene, police Capt. Jamil Hussein said.
A follow-up Associated Press article printed on November 25
stated:
Iraqi soldiers at a nearby army post failed to intervene in Friday's assault by suspected members of the Shiite Mahdi Army militia or subsequent attacks that killed at least 19 other Sunnis, including women and children, in the same neighborhood, the volatile Hurriyah district in northwest Baghdad, said police Capt. Jamil Hussein.
In the same article, a second source, a Sunni elder named Imad al-Hasimi:
...confirmed Hussein's account of the immolations. He told Al-Arabiya television he saw people who were drenched in kerosene and then set afire, burning to death before his eyes.
When approached by investigators from the Iraqi Defense Ministry, al-Hasimi recanted his claim that six worshippers were pulled from the Mustafa mosque in Hurriyah, which an AP report by Steven R. Hurst confirmed in a November
28 article. Hurst seemed to imply that as Hasimi was pressured into recanting his testimony in a January 4th article where he stated that he recanted only after Defense Ministry investigators "paid him a visit," a loaded phrase often used in Hollywood accounts of mafia goons strong-arming the witnesses of crimes into silence.
AP later claimed that several anonymous sources in Hurriyah confirmed the claimed immolation attack to AP reporters, but these accounts could not be verified by any other news organization's reporters, including Baghdad correspondent Edward Wong of the
New York Times:
When we first heard of the event on Nov. 24, through the A.P. story and a man named Imad al-Hashemi talking about it on television, we had our Iraqi reporters make calls to people in the Hurriya neighborhood. Because of the curfew that day, everything had to be done by phone. We reached several people who told us about the mosque attacks, but said they had heard nothing of Sunni worshippers being burned alive. Any big news event travels quickly by word of mouth through Baghdad, aided by the enormous proliferation of cell phones here. Such an incident would have been so abominable that a great many of the residents in Hurriya, as well as in other Sunni Arab districts, would have been in an uproar over it. Hard-line Sunni Arab organizations such as the Muslim Scholars Association or the Iraqi Islamic Party would almost certainly have appeared on television that day or the next to denounce this specific incident. Iraqi clerics and politicians are not shy about doing this. Yet, as far as I know, there was no widespread talk of the incident.
The
Washington Post also spoke with two local imams, who
denied the immolations took place.
On November 30, The Public Affairs Office, via email, dropped the bombshell that the Iraqi Interior Ministry had
no record of a police officer by the name of Jamil Hussein.
Iraqi Brigadier General Abdul-Karim Khalaf later confirmed that statement in a press conference, which brought the following response from Associated Press International Editor John Daniszewski
later that same day:
The Associated Press denounces unfounded attacks on its story about six Sunni worshipers burned to death outside their mosque on Friday, November 24. The attempt to question the existence of the known police officer who spoke to the AP is frankly ludicrous and hints at a certain level of desperation to dispute or suppress the facts of the incident in question.
AP reporters who have been working in Iraq throughout the conflict learned of the mosque incident through witnesses and neighborhood residents and corroborated it with a named police spokesmen and also through hospital and morgue workers.
We have conducted a thorough review of the sourcing and reporting involved and plan to move a more detailed report about the entire incident soon, with greater detail provided by multiple eye witnesses. Several of those witnesses spoke to AP on the condition that their names would not be used because they fear reprisals.
The police captain cited in our story has long been known to the AP reporters and has been interviewed in his office and by telephone on several occasions during the past two years.
He is an officer at the police station in Yarmouk, with a record of reliability and truthfulness. His full name is Jamil Gholaiem Hussein.
The AP stands by its story.
AP Executive Editor Kathleen Carroll then
piled on, oddly:
We are satisfied with our reporting on this incident. If Iraqi and U.S. military spokesmen choose to disregard AP's on-the-ground reporting, that is certainly their choice to make, but it is a puzzling one given the facts.
AP journalists have repeatedly been to the Hurriyah neighborhood, a small Sunni enclave within a larger Shiia area of Baghdad. Residents there have told us in detail about the attack on the mosque and that six people were burned alive during it. Images taken later that day and again this week show a burned mosque and graffiti that says "blood wanted," similar to that found on the homes of Iraqis driven out of neighborhoods where they are a minority. We have also spoken repeatedly to a police captain who is known to AP and has been a reliable source of accurate information in the past and he has confirmed the attack.
By contrast, the U.S. military and Iraqi government spokesmen attack our reporting because that captain's name is not on their list of authorized spokespeople. Their implication that we may have given money to the captain is false. The AP does not pay for information. Period.
Further, the Iraqi spokesman said today that reporting on such atrocities "shows that the security situation is worse than it really is." He is speaking from a capital city where dozens of bodies are discovered every day showing signs of terrible torture. Where people are gunned down in their cars, dragged from their homes or blown apart in public places every single day.
At the end of the day, we have AP journalists with reporting and images from the actual neighborhood versus official spokesmen saying the story cannot be true because it is damaging and because one of the sources is not on a list of people approved to talk to the press. Good reporting relies on more than government-approved sources.
We stand behind our reporting.
Executive Editor Carroll's comments seem to say, "how dare they question us, the Associated Press."
Carroll followed up on December 8, 2006, strongly implying that forces in the Interior Ministry may be participating in a cover-up of the attacks because of sectarian influences, and implied that questioning the Associated Press accounts of the Hurriyah accounts, and Jamil Hussein's identity by bloggers, the Iraqi government, and Multi-National Corps- Iraq amounted to a witch hunt:
Some of AP's critics question the existence of police Capt. Jamil Hussein, who was one (but not the only) source to tell us about the burning.
These critics cite a U.S. military officer and an Iraqi official who first said Hussein is not an authorized spokesman and later said he is not on their list of Interior Ministry employees. It’s worth noting that such lists are relatively recent creations of the fledgling Iraqi government.
By contrast, Hussein is well known to AP. We first met him, in uniform, in a police station, some two years ago. We have talked with him a number of times since then and he has been a reliable source of accurate information on a variety of events in Baghdad.
No one – not a single person – raised questions about Hussein’s accuracy or his very existence in all that time. Those questions were raised only after he was quoted by name describing a terrible attack in a neighborhood that U.S. and Iraqi forces have struggled to make safe.
That neighborhood, Hurriyah, is a particularly violent section of Baghdad. Once a Sunni enclave, it now is dominated by gunmen loyal to anti-American Shiite cleric Muqtada al-Sadr. Many people there talked to us about the attack, but clammed up when they realized they might be quoted publicly. They felt understandably nervous about bringing their accusations up in an area patrolled by a Shiite-led police force that they suspect is allied with the very militia accused in these killings...
As careful followers of the Iraq story know well, various militias have been accused of operating within the Interior Ministry, which controls the police and has long worked to suppress news of death-squad activity in its ranks. (This is the same ministry that questioned Capt. Hussein’s existence and last week announced plans to take legal action against journalists who report news that creates the impression that security in Iraq is bad, “when the facts are totally different.”)
The Iraqi journalists who work for the AP are smart, dedicated and incredibly courageous to go into the streets every day, talking to their countrymen and trying to capture a portrait of their home in a historic and tumultuous period.
The work is dangerous: two people who work for AP have been killed since this war began in 2003. Many others have been hurt, some badly.
Several of AP's Iraqi journalists were victimized by Saddam Hussein’s regime and bear scars of his torture or the loss of relatives killed by his goons. Those journalists have no interest in furthering the chaos that makes daily life in Iraq so perilous. They want what any of us want: To be able to live and work without fear and raise their children in peace and safety.
Questioning their integrity and work ethic is simply offensive.
It's awfully easy to take pot shots from the safety of a computer keyboard thousands of miles from the chaos of Baghdad.
The Iraq war is one of hundreds of conflicts that AP journalists have covered in the past 160 years. Our only goal is to provide fair, impartial coverage of important human events as they unfold. We check our facts and check again.
That is what we have done in the case of the Hurriyah attack. And that is why we stand by our story.
On January 4, 2007, AP reporter Steven R. Hurst
announced the Iraqi Ministry Brigadier General Abdul-Kareem Khalaf had acknowledged that "Jamil Hussein" was indeed who the Associated Press said he was the entire time:
The Interior Ministry acknowledged Thursday that an Iraqi police officer whose existence had been denied by the Iraqis and the U.S. military is in fact an active member of the force, and said he now faces arrest for speaking to the media.
Ministry spokesman Brig. Abdul-Karim Khalaf, who had previously denied there was any such police employee as Capt. Jamil Hussein, said in an interview that Hussein is an officer assigned to the Khadra police station, as had been reported by The Associated Press.
The captain, whose full name is Jamil Gholaiem Hussein, was one of the sources for an AP story in late November about the burning and shooting of six people during a sectarian attack at a Sunni mosque.
The U.S. military and the Iraqi Interior Ministry raised the doubts about Hussein in questioning the veracity of the AP's initial reporting on the incident, and the Iraqi ministry suggested that many news organization were giving a distorted, exaggerated picture of the conflict in Iraq. Some Internet bloggers spread and amplified these doubts, accusing the AP of having made up Hussein's identity in order to disseminate false news about the war.
On January 11, 2007, LT. Michael Dean, LT, US Navy assigned to Multi-National Corps-Iraq Public affairs forwarded to me and several other bloggers the following an email from Bill Costlow, a civilian liaison with the Civilian Police Assistance Training Team (CPATT) working with the Iraqi Interior Ministry in Baghdad. The email said, in part (my bold):
Seems like every time I talk to somebody about this guy, his name
changes. His personnel record says his name is: Jamil Gulaim Innad
XX-XXXXXXX [name redacted- ed].
Spokesman BG Abdul-Kareem has spoken with members of the AP in Baghdad
and has confirmation that he is their source.
"BG Abdul-Kareem" was later confirmed in direct follow-up emails to Bill Costlow of CPATT as being the exact same Interior Ministry spokesman, Iraqi Brigadier General Abdul-Karim Khalaf, cited by the January 4 Hurst article... but telling a quite different story about the identity of Jamil Hussein.
According to Brigadier General Abdul-Karim Khalaf, not only was "Jamil Hussein" actually
Jamil Gulaim Innad XX-XXXXXXX,
the AP itself confirmed this identity, and then apparently decided to print an apparently fictitious account saying that Jamil Hussein was Jamil Hussein.
I personally contacted Associated Press reporter Steven R. Hurst via email on January 11 to confirm Hussein's true identity with him, and instead, within 90 minutes, received the following email reply from Linda M. Wagner, Director of Media Relations and Public Affairs for the Associated Press,
which read in part:
Steve Hurst passed your e-mail inquiry along to me. AP stands by the story below, which provides the full name of the source whose existence was acknowledged to AP by Iraq's Interior Ministry spokesman Brig. Abdul-Karim Khalaf in an interview on Thursday, January 4. I have bolded the relevant passages for ease of finding them in the text.
I've since conducted follow-ups with CPATT liason to the Iraqi Interior Ministry, Bill Costlow, and he provided me this morning with the direct quote of Brigadier General Abdul-Karim Khalaf as noted in the
Pajamas Media Exclusive.
A direct copy of Brigadier General Abdul-Karim Khalaf's quote was forwarded to Linda Wagner of the Associated Press this morning, asking her if the Associated Press still stood behind Hurst's January 4th article, now that that article has been contradicted by their own source.
Thus far Wagner has declined to respond. If she so desires, she can contact me for Brigadier General Abdul-Karim Khalaf's phone number for confirmation of this quote.
I think he is expecting her call.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
03:00 PM
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Excellent work, Bob. I excerpted and linked the PJM piece and linked your blog post from Part 49 of my Jamilgate series.
Posted by: Bill Faith at February 15, 2007 07:15 PM (n7SaI)
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February 14, 2007
How to Fail at Suicide Bombing
According to Liveleak.com, this VBIED suicide bomber survived an attack on American forces in Baghdad... briefly.
He wasn't the
only one who failed (content warning for language).
Funny how the failed suicide bombings and foiled IED attacks rarely get reported in the media, isn't it?
Bonus: Some pre-release footage from Pat Dollard's documentary,
Young Americans.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
06:38 PM
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>>Funny how the failed suicide bombings and foiled IED attacks rarely get reported in the media, isn't it?
Actually it's not funny (strange) at all. It is (and always has been) deliberate American policy not to count insurgent attacks that don't result in death or serious injury to American troops. By doing this they hoped to minimize the scale of the insurgency in the public mind. A rather futile policy in my opinion.
Posted by: Mack at February 15, 2007 10:32 AM (VRb5p)
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It is (and always has been) deliberate American policy not to count insurgent attacks that don't result in death or serious injury to American troops.
What? Centcom doesn't report them? I think a cite is required for that statement.
Tob
Posted by: Toby928 at February 15, 2007 11:12 AM (ATbKm)
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I've had someone tell me to my face that there are no terrorists in Iraq.
Posted by: brando at February 15, 2007 01:16 PM (uZ35s)
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Copperheads Decide on How to Define Screw 'Em
Lacking the moral courage to simply vote against the war in Iraq, House Democrats are instead working with anti-war groups--no doubt including the collection of Islamists and Marxists profiled here--to impose limitations that would reduce the number of U.S troops available for duty, putting American soldiers at risk as they plot their strategy for defeat:
The House strategy is being crafted quietly, even as the chamber is immersed this week in an emotional, albeit mostly symbolic, debate over a resolution expressing opposition to Bush's plan to "surge" 21,500 more troops into Iraq.
Murtha, the powerful chairman of the defense subcommittee of the House Appropriations Committee, will seek to attach a provision to an upcoming $93 billion supplemental spending bill for Iraq and Afghanistan. It would restrict the deployment of troops to Iraq unless they meet certain levels adequate manpower, equipment and training to succeed in combat. That's a standard Murtha believes few of the units Bush intends to use for the surge would be able to meet.
In addition, Murtha, acting with the backing of the House Democratic leadership, will seek to limit the time and number of deployments by soldiers, Marines and National Guard units to Iraq, making it tougher for Pentagon officials to find the troops to replace units that are scheduled to rotate out of the country. Additional funding restrictions are also being considered by Murtha, such as prohibiting the creation of U.S. military bases inside Iraq, dismantling the notorious Abu Ghraib prison and closing the American detention facility in Guantanamo Bay, Cuba.
"There's a D-Day coming in here, and it's going to start with the supplemental and finish with the '08 [defense] budget," said Rep. Neil Abercrombie, D-Hawaii, who chairs the Air and Land Forces subcommittee of the House Armed Services Committee.
Frankly, I'm not sure how we should respond when members of our own political class proudly declare that they are admitting to planning a "D-Day"
against our own military.

Gaius, who has a son currently deployed in Iraq,
is not happy:
They frankly do not care how much damage they do to the United States in their blind lust for political power, do they? They frankly don't care that they will, in effect, tie the hands of the military commanders with this strategy.
No, they don't, because in their eyes, victory is not an option.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
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"It would restrict the deployment of troops to Iraq unless they meet certain levels adequate manpower, equipment and training to succeed in combat."
Wow, that's about the most deceitful thing I have ever heard of. Masking cowardice as caring for soldiers while keeping needed reinforcements from Iraq. These people are evil pure and simple.
Question: Does Congress have the right to dictate to the Pentagon the definition of a fully manned, fully trained or properly equipped unit?
Posted by: BohicaTwentyTwo at February 15, 2007 11:43 AM (oC8nQ)
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"A Military Times poll released in December revealed that only 35 percent of military members approved of the president's handling of the war - despite the fact that 46 percent of them are self-identified Republicans (down from 60 percent in previous Military Times polls) while just 16 percent are Democrats. According to a recent Zogby survey of troops serving in Iraq, 72 percent want American forces home within a year."
How do you figure you are supporting the troops and we are not?
Posted by: Lex Steele at February 15, 2007 03:43 PM (irNSl)
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I would guess that a lot of the military members that don't approve of the president's handling of the war are unhappy because they want the gloves to come off. It still counts as disapproval, but probably not the same kind of disapproval you had in mind.
And if a majority want everybody home, maybe they want the job to get done.
Posted by: moon6 at February 15, 2007 06:38 PM (qmM4O)
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moon6 -- thanks so much for your civility. Why do you think 72% want American forces home within a year then?
Posted by: Lex Steele at February 15, 2007 06:58 PM (irNSl)
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Probably because they've become convinced that the Democrats and other leftists are going to betray them again, and want to get out before this betrayal results on too many troops killed.
Posted by: Michael Lonie at February 15, 2007 07:38 PM (W0KX/)
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Michael, thank you too for your civility.
Consider this: the Dems had basically no influence in the war until last November. Bush got everything he asked for from Congress. However the war has gone nothing at all like his administration predicted. Most Dems were for the war, but over time we've had more and more concerns and just aren't seeing any signs of success. It seems like our position now is worse that when we deposed Saddam.
Posted by: Lex Steele at February 15, 2007 08:43 PM (irNSl)
7
"Why do you think 72% want American forces home within a year then?"
Well, I'm not sure exactly how that question was phrased or what the context was. I think if you ask someone over there "Would you like everyone to be home in a year?", of course the answer is going to be "yes". That doesn't mean they don't want to finish the job, and it doesn't mean they aren't willing to stay longer to finish the job.
Posted by: moon6 at February 16, 2007 12:07 AM (qmM4O)
8
Lex
Thank you for your civility and courtesy, first of all. Reasoned differences will benefit us all.
While I tend to agree that the pacification of Iraq has not gone well (and the administration should bear full responsibility for that), I do believe that the preferred tactic of the Dems (retreat/cut and run) will result in a truly worse situation by any measure you would care to use.
And I think that the use of the verb "seems" is very appropriate. I am really uncertain about all reporting out of Iraq. After seeing past victories turned into defeats (Tet, Fallujah), who can really believe the general press?
Posted by: iconoclast at February 16, 2007 12:29 AM (/8/KJ)
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Duke's Incredible Disappearing Rape Case
No, this has nothing to do with the collapsing case brought by a stripper against members of the Duke lacrosse team, but instead, a newly alleged rape of a white Duke student by a black male during a party in the fraternity house of Phi Beta Sigma, an African-American fraternity at Duke.
If you haven't heard of it, it may be because the same media, university administrators and Duke faculty that pre-judged the lacrosse players guilty seem to have be purposefully silent, and perhaps for
all the wrong reasons.
While I can hope that those who attacked the Lacrosse team have simply learned a lesson on prejudging a case in which the details are far from known, the fact that local media purposefully sanitized accounts of the alleged crime to remove the race of the attacker leads me to beleive we may simply be witnessing a shameful double standard.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
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If they'd covered this rape case, they'd have to cut time out of the every-persistant, every-facinating Anna Nicole's Death story.
Please don't go crying "Conspiracy" when the media doesn't overinflate an event. Especially when they've done such a good job of proving themselves as shills for a completely different right-wing cause - "See: OMG! Scary Iran!".
If you're going to smear the MSM, have the good decency to smear them for things they actually do wrong.
Posted by: Zifnab at February 14, 2007 12:04 PM (Usaah)
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Oh please! When the local newspaper and television outlets remove the one identifier, in this case BLACK from the description of the suspect that the alleged victim describes, but we find that the exact same wording from the police report that includes the world BLACK is printed and reported outside the local area, what would you call that?
Not a mistake? Unintentional? Everyone else calls it being a shill to polical correctness gone wrong. That's the real world.
Posted by: Nancy at February 14, 2007 12:14 PM (hUUL7)
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Yes, white women have historically been so unfairly persecuted by the police and the press. What a world we live in.
I know when I open the newspaper, if I don't see Black Man Rapes White Woman I usually just junk it.
Honestly, I don't read the newspaper anyway, what with all that evil liberal propoganda. Just good, clean, unbiased blogs.
Posted by: Zifnab at February 14, 2007 12:20 PM (Usaah)
4
Bob-
Can you email me? I've lost your email address!!
Thanks,
Bruce
Posted by: Bruce (GayPatriot) at February 14, 2007 12:59 PM (gRPPk)
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Psy-Ops?
Reports issued last night saying that the man dubbed "Mullah Atari" for his video game addictions, Shiite cleric Muqtada al-Sadr, may have fled from Iraq to Tehran, are being disputed:
The chief U.S. military spokesman in Iraq said Wednesday that Muqtada al-Sadr has left the country and is believed to be in Iran, despite denials from the radical Shiite cleric's supporters. Maj. Gen. William Caldwell declined to comment on the reasons al-Sadr had left the country or give more details.
"We will acknowledge that he is not in the country and all indications are in fact that he is in Iran," Caldwell told reporters in Baghdad.
Lawmakers and officials linked to al-Sadr have denied that he had left the country, with one saying the cleric had met with government officials late Tuesday in the Shiite holy city of Najaf.
An Iraqi government official said al-Sadr was in Najaf as recently as Tuesday night, when he received delegates from several government departments. The official, who is familiar with one of those meetings, spoke on condition of anonymity because he has no authority to disclose information on his department's activities.
Lawmaker Nassar al-Rubaie, the head of Sadrist bloc in parliament, also insisted al-Sadr had not left the country.
"The news is not accurate because Muqtada al-Sadr is still in Iraq and he did not visit any country," al-Rubaie told The Associated Press.
The charge, accurate or not, could have the following ramifications.
- If he has already fled, his credibility drops. It will be very difficult for him to retain any political credibility or inspire his followers while hiding in another country, and he might never be able to regain his prestige.
- If still in Iraq, it makes it far more difficult for al-Sadr to leave. If Al-Sadr is still in Iraq as alleged by his followers, political pressure from his own supporters will make it far more difficult for him to actually flee without suffering severe penalties, perhaps dissolving his credibility entirely among both his political allies and his militant followers
- Locking him in to staying makes his capture or death more likely. Despite the near-hysterical shrieking of the fringe left, the Bush Administration has made it abundantly clear that they would prefer to no engage Iran in a war, so if al-Sadr made it to Tehran, he would be far out of U.S. reach. As long as he is in Iraq—perhaps kept there by a fear of becoming marginalized if he fled—then he will be much easier to target, should coalition forces decide that he needs to be taken down.
Whether this is a psychological operation or not is nearly irrelevant at this point. Al-Sadr is now on the defensive, which is precisely where the coalition prefers him to be.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
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We're turning a corner! Break out the $20 million in pre-ordered party hats! One more Freidman till victory!
Posted by: Zifnab at February 14, 2007 12:06 PM (Usaah)
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This reminds me of a scene from the movie "Under Fire". Ed Harris plays a mercenary, then in Chad. The Cubans are providing pilots for one side, while the CIA is helping the other side. The CIA guys drop leaflets, which offer a ranch house in Florida for the Cuban pilots. Nick Nolte plays a reporter who scoffs. Ed Harris says that the CIA guys are the smartest guys in the world. He says the Cuban pilots are grounded out of fear that they'd fly the planes over to the CIA in order to get into the US. So, the CIA psy-ops shuts down the best pilots of the enemy.
If Muqtie hasn't left, this is a great psy ops gag. Ha, ha, smartest guys in the world.
Posted by: Jabba the Tutt at February 17, 2007 09:59 AM (hroEl)
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February 13, 2007
A Shred More Class
Melissa McEwan of Shakespeare's Sister has followed Amanda Marcotte in resigning from the John Edwards Presidential train wreck:
I understand that there will be progressive bloggers who feel I am making the wrong decision, and I offer my sincerest apologies to them. One of the hardest parts of this decision was feeling as though I'm letting down my peers, who have been so supportive.
There will be some who clamor to claim victory for my resignation, but I caution them that in doing so, they are tacitly accepting responsibility for those who have deluged my blog and my inbox with vitriol and veiled threats. It is not right-wing bloggers, nor people like Bill Donohue or Bill O'Reilly, who prompted nor deserve credit for my resignation, no matter how much they want it, but individuals who used public criticisms of me as an excuse to unleash frightening ugliness, the likes of which anyone with a modicum of respect for responsible discourse would denounce without hesitation.
This is a win for no one.
I don't think I've read enough of her blog to know much about McEwan, but I can say this: she exhibited more class and dignity than Marcotte, even as I find it somewhat ironic that someone who calls my fellow Christians "christofascists" accuses others of unleashing "frightening ugliness, the likes of which anyone with a modicum of respect for responsible discourse would denounce without hesitation."
They did denounce the frightening ugliness, Melissa. You should know.
You wrote much of it yourself.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
07:33 PM
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1
Listen, you shouldn't lump Melissa in with Amanda Marcotte. I'm a liberal, and even I can't stand Marcotte's venom-filled writings. McEwan is a completely different type of blogger, and it's not really surprising that she exhibited more class than Amanda.
Posted by: dom at February 13, 2007 08:32 PM (xSn34)
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Maybe she should read some of Michelle Malkin's mail.
I hear she gets some orc-level ugliness there.
Posted by: Mikey NTH at February 13, 2007 08:51 PM (HX/8J)
3
"she exhibited more class and dignity than Marcotte"
Not hard to do.
Posted by: Jim C. at February 13, 2007 10:04 PM (74BGX)
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McEwan by herself might have made it but after all the attention the Marcotte thing brought in I think it was clear her days were numbered too. I excerpted and linked at Twisted Sister #2 Resigns.
Posted by: Bill Faith at February 13, 2007 10:10 PM (n7SaI)
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I have read many conservative blog sites and have never read crude and ugly stuff as on these liberal sites. Perhaps there are sites I am unaware of, but the ones associated with Michelle Malkin deal with facts and opinions, but not bigoted ugly crude sacreligious language like I have seen on the sites like the girls who just resigned. If anyone conservative posted stuff like that, I would denounce them, too. As would Michelle Malkin.
Posted by: Cindy Anderson at February 13, 2007 10:34 PM (NF0Xt)
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On that last post, I should not speak for Michelle Malkin, but I feel safe in predicting that she would probably denounce a conservative blogger that posted ugly stuff like the two Edward bloggers who resigned.
Posted by: Cindy Anderson at February 13, 2007 10:40 PM (NF0Xt)
7
Oddly enough, there is not the tiniest bit of opprobrium directed toward the Jew-hating rape apologist Bill Donohue. When is anyone on the right going to have the decency and integrity to denounce and ostracize him? Are you going to cut him loose, or is there no principle you are unwilling to jettison in the pursuit of partisan gain?
Posted by: Tom Hilton at February 13, 2007 11:39 PM (3wl8w)
8
Tom, your ignorance, and basic laziness is not my problem.
Earlier today I said:
Marcotte attempts to shift the blame to Bill Donohue, a bigot in his own right (his views on Judaism turn the stomach), but the reality is that Marcotte and Donohue are flip sides of the same vile coin.
I dedicated a post to Donohue alone, which stated in part:
Considering the apparent shall we say, shared appreciation of the Jewish faith that Donahue and [former Klansman David] Duke seem to have in common, I think he better find a less self-immolating comparison.
Here I simply called Donohue a "right-wing bigot." Here I called him and the Catholic League he represents "bomb-throwers."
If you're going to make stupid comments, don't drop them in the comments section of the very blog that proves you conclusively wrong.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at February 13, 2007 11:55 PM (HcgFD)
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Okay, fair enough; all I caught was this post, not the preceeding one. I stand corrected. Even though you buy into the completely dishonest pseudo-outrage of vermin like Donohue, good for you for denouncing Donohue himself.
Posted by: Tom Hilton at February 14, 2007 12:02 AM (3wl8w)
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Tom said " are you going to cut him (Bill Donahue - is that Phil's brother?)loose, or is there no principle you are unwilling to jettison in the persuit of partisan gain? _ (that's a double negative but never mind - I get your point)
I can't speak for everyone on the right but I never heard of Phil Donahue's brother until this Amanda thing came up. Do we have a club with membership cards and a rollcall for the rightwing? If so nobody sent me the list.
Don't have a card either.
I can't possibly denounce every self avowed member of the Republican party for every comment they have made. I won't apologize for them either. I will say I am not in favor of demonizing anybody for their religion, including muslims. The way I figure it even if Islam killed a hundred thousand a year every year since Mohammad, the pile still wouldn't stack up to the millions killed by athiesm.
SO God bless and I hope if you are a Muslim you survive until after the reformation.
Posted by: papertiger at February 14, 2007 12:02 AM (jnEb9)
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"I don't think I've read enough of her blog to know much about McEwan, but I can say this: she exhibited more class and dignity than Marcotte, even as I find it somewhat ironic that someone who calls my fellow Christians "christofascists" accuses others of unleashing "frightening ugliness, the likes of which anyone with a modicum of respect for responsible discourse would denounce without hesitation." "
Does the term "christo-fascists" bother you because you identify yourself with Christianity, since you are Christian and many of your friends are Christians? Or does the term bother you because, in and of itself it is "frighteningly ugly"?
Because with all due respect, Bob, it just rings a little bit hollow, when people who don't hesitate to insult the religious faith of two billion Muslims with the term "Islamofascists" get so incredibly bent out of shape when the shoe is on the other foot.
Posted by: Kathy at February 14, 2007 12:31 AM (wWPI1)
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"On that last post, I should not speak for Michelle Malkin, but I feel safe in predicting that she would probably denounce a conservative blogger that posted ugly stuff like the two Edward bloggers who resigned."
You mean like Allahpundit who works for her?
You don't get around much do you Cindy?
Posted by: tbogg at February 14, 2007 01:02 AM (d7Sqx)
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The term "Islamo-fascists" refers to a subset of Muslims who wish to reestablish the Caliphate by force and who wish to impose Sharia law on everyone. As used by Marcotte, et al, the term "Christo-fascists" generally referred to Christians in general. If Marcotte said that there were some Christians who acted like fascists, that would be different -- extreme, but different. But, if you read the body of her work, she just hates Christians with a deep and abiding passion. Hate, hate, hate.
Cheap trick linking to your own bizarre site under the Allahpundit name. But, the ends justify the means for the Left. Anything is acceptable to advance the agenda.
Posted by: Watergate at February 14, 2007 01:19 AM (BC1Xw)
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I only linked to my blog (not like I want your type to infest it) because CY's spam filter wouldn't let me link to Allah's archives. Having said that, you quite nimbly avoided what Allahpundit had to say about Catholics. Therefore I will assume that you agree with him.
And I liked you parsing of "Islamo-fascists" being a subset, while "Christo-fascists" is the whole enchilada, so to speak. Maybe when Jesus doesn't talk to you tonight, you'll have that to keep you warm.
Posted by: tbogg at February 14, 2007 01:37 AM (d7Sqx)
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Therefore I will assume that you agree with him.
Snark really is lost on you people isn't it? If that's the best example you have, its way WAY lame dood.
Posted by: Purple Avenger at February 14, 2007 01:56 AM (HDpFt)
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Sorry, tbogg, that dog won't hunt.
Let's have a tale of the tape, shall we?
Allah: posted snarky, foul-mouthed essays on a blog that was entirely satirical
Amanda: posted snarky, foul-mouthed essays on a blog which had (evidently) both satirical and non-satirical elements, within which it was difficult to tell the difference (if there even was one)
Allah: abandoned said website for months before resurfacing with a completely nonsatirical (though occasionally snarky) blog, then leaving that blog to co-host a website with another blogger
Amanda: abandoned said website immediately to take a job blogging for someone who was campaigning to be the President of the United States
Allah: within the last, oh, couple of months or so, has not written anything blatantly inflammatory or hateful (as evidenced by the fact that someone had to dig back nearly 3½ years to find anything, and that was weak)
Amanda: has routinely written posts which are blatantly inflammatory and hateful, up until and following the time when she was employed by a Presidential aspirant.
Sorry, tbogg. This runs a little deeper than your silly little claims of a double standard. When you guys get standards in the first place, we can talk about double standards.
Posted by: marchand chronicles at February 14, 2007 02:43 AM (/l8fq)
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'Kay, the comment garbled up my post.
Allah's old site, which I attempted to link to, is linkmecca.blogspot.com.
Posted by: mc at February 14, 2007 02:49 AM (/l8fq)
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Right. I'm sure Edwards would have been very comfortable introducing Amanda to say...the queen of England.
Posted by: Purple Avenger at February 14, 2007 06:22 AM (HDpFt)
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Thanks for reminding me, tbogg, that the term "independent thought" is still non-existent on the left. My goodness, all you people think exactly alike and take the same marching orders. Izzat why you need the gov't for your every whim?
Posted by: RW at February 14, 2007 07:04 AM (vnNjd)
20
It is untrue that Shakespeare's Sister ever used the term "Christofascist" to refer to Christians in general. People may not like the term regardless. Fine. But it was never applied to all Christians. If people would actually read her blog, rather than just assume that whatever was written about her is true, they might actually know this.
Posted by: LS at February 14, 2007 08:05 AM (n4O5C)
21
LS,
Is that similar to someone saying "I didn't mean that n*$$er referred to all blacks"? Mind you (and I speak as a Christian) that I'm not trying to innoculate fundamentalists from criticism, especially those who seek to foment a burgeoning theocracy (all 12 of them, or as Andrew Sullivan would say "all 30 million of them"), just pointing out that the phrase is sorta, kinda, all-encompassing on the surface. However, if there's a legitimate definition, that would make things a lot clearer.
Kinda like how the left accepts that Limbaugh's "femanazi" only refers to the ultra-feminist leadership & not a good chunk of the female population as a whole, right?
Posted by: RW at February 14, 2007 08:31 AM (nr2qO)
22
McEwan's blog, Shakespeare's Sister, is pretty much your standard mediocre leftygrrl snark fare, which is to say it's still head and shoulders above Marcotte's drivel. You're not missing anything.
Having said that, Edwards blew this event in every conceivable way. He should never have hired either of them, even as a "technical advisor" (as McEwan says she was) every word she's ever posted on her blog becomes the official Edwards Campaign Platform by simple implication.
Edwards, taking the standard Democrat triangulation way out so he could have his bloggers and his credibility at the same time, now is left with nothing. Every single step of his involvement with this has been marred by taking the worst possible choice, then double backing on it, then double backing on it again.
The last week or so has proved that Edwards is nothing more than a shifty Clintonian trial lawyer that lacks any and all charisma and political savvy.
He's done.
Posted by: Jared at February 14, 2007 10:34 AM (1Hmzb)
23
"Allah: abandoned said website for months before resurfacing with a completely nonsatirical (though occasionally snarky) blog, then leaving that blog to co-host a website with another blogger"
Claiming satire: the last refuge of the busted.
Hey look, if Malkin wants to employ someone who thinks that Catholics are CHUD's I have no problem with that and it in no way influences my opinion of her.
I'm fair that way.
Posted by: tbogg at February 14, 2007 11:37 AM (d7Sqx)
24
That drivle works only amongst the idiotic kossack-phere, tbogg. Granted, it goes over like buttah there (they're lemmings, so it goes to reason) but nowhere else.
No.
Where.
Else.
You're taking pisses into a hurricane. Find a new rap, preferrably an original one.
Posted by: RW at February 14, 2007 12:16 PM (vnNjd)
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Spin Job
Ask not to whom the AP lies: it lies to thee.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
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