Confederate Yankee
April 17, 2007
Brian Ross' Gun Idiocy Rides Again
I've already slapped around Ross and ABC News for refusing to retract an entry on "The Blotter" that was remarkably fact-free, but Ross seems determined to further showcase his ignorance in yet another post today, attempted to tell us that one of the guns used was a 22 millimeter handgun.
Cho Seung-Hui bought his first gun, a 9 mm handgun, on March 13 and his second weapon, a 22 mm handgun, within the last week, law enforcement officials tell ABCNews.com.
Well, that would certainly explain why the casualty figures were so high. 20, 25 and 30 millimeter
cannons are used as armament on helicopters, fighter aircraft and armored vehicles. Of course, no handgun could fire such a massive shell, outside of a Hollywood fantasy.
***
It is also worth noting that the ABC News picture associated with this blog entry is inaccurate as well.
It shows a picture of the Virginia Tech shooter as well as a
Walther PPK or PPK/S in .380 ACP; a firearm and cartridge not used in the shooting.
The firearms used were a 9mm Glock 19 and a Walther P22 in .22 caliber.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
11:42 AM
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1
so what's your point, you inbred hillbilly?
Posted by: mike at April 17, 2007 12:55 PM (NeFIG)
2
How about, "Guns don't kill people. Mike's stupidity kills people?"
Posted by: anon. at April 17, 2007 01:02 PM (EB0PF)
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That the main stream media is more concerned with ratings and ad revenue than reporting stories accurately you pseudo-intellectual yankee.
Cheers!
Trey
Posted by: Trey at April 17, 2007 01:03 PM (CTvMj)
4
"Fake but accurate" - a level we should all attain, eh?
Posted by: Jeff at April 17, 2007 01:05 PM (yiMNP)
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Hey Mike?
His point might be that with every keystroke Brian Ross makes he tells another falsehood, or misrepresents the information he's given because he's completely ignorant of the topic about which he's bloviating.
Or perhaps the point in CY's post is that given the impimatur of ABC News, Ross looks more like an imbecile than any inbred hillbilly you could name.
CY is (I think) attempting to get you to note that Ross is actually expecting you to believe that a .22 caliber handgun firing a bullet which is 0.22" in diameter, is the same as a 22 mm weapon, which would fire a 22 mm [0.866"] diameter bullet, roughly four times as large.
Largest diameter handgun bullet I know of is a 0.50 caliber. At least, that's the largest I ever fired, at a range, and it damn near broke my wrist from the recoil.
Posted by: Boomer at April 17, 2007 02:56 PM (m6e9t)
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That was a racist remark Mike. I think we should have you banned from the internet. Quick - someone call Jesse...well...maybe not....
Posted by: Specter at April 17, 2007 03:45 PM (ybfXM)
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Too bad it wasn't a PPK/s. Dang things are notoriously picky about ammo and misfeeds are common.
Posted by: Dave in Texas at April 17, 2007 04:36 PM (pzen5)
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I want one of them 22mm guns, oh and a Apache Helicopter.
Posted by: David at April 17, 2007 05:52 PM (e2PMD)
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I linked from Virginia Tech: The Day After.
Posted by: Bill Faith at April 17, 2007 08:26 PM (n7SaI)
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don't you just love how liberals like mike name call. Rather than say anything intelligent or come back with a valid point, they just spew utter ignorance. Brian Ross is really no different. He would rather continue putting out false information to fit his agenda and get new gun laws passed rather than tell the truth. I have already stopped watching the MSM because I cannot stomach it anymore.
Thanks for keeping us informed. Keep it up.
Posted by: carol at April 17, 2007 10:36 PM (g1/X7)
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Virginia Tech Shooter, Weapons Identified
Allahpundit has the story on the shooter, who has been identified as Seung Hui Cho (CNN calls him Cho Seung Hui), a Korean national, a permanent resident of the United States and a Virginia Tech student.
I'm cross-referencing this to Curt at Flopping Aces, who noted in
an update a post to a firearms message board, where a gun shop employee
claims (site currently down) he sold Cho the firearms used in the shooting:
"Well, I'm screwed. They found a receipt in the gunman's pocket indicating that he bought the gun from me in March. ATF is at my shop right now. See you later, I'm on my way to the shop right now."
[...]"Call BS all you like, but I just spent the last several hours with 3 ATF agents. I saw the shooter's picture. I know his name and home address. I also know that he used a Glock 19 and a Walther P-22. The serial number was ground off the Glock. Why would he do that and still keep the receipt in his pocket from when he bought the gun? ATF told me that they are going to keep this low-key and not report this to the tv news. However, they cautioned that it will leak out eventually, and that I should be ready to deal with CNN, FOX, etc. My 32 camera surveillance system recorded the event 35 days ago. This is a digital system that only keeps the video for 35 days. We got lucky. By the way, the paperwork for Mr. Cho was perfect, thank God."
I'm as disgusted as you probably are with the poster's focus on himself among all the real carnage around him, but that fact remains that he named "Mr. Cho" more than 12 hours before officials, so I think his claim that he sold these firearms to Cho is probably legitimate.
The firearms used in the shooting appear to be a Glock 19 (left, above), a 9mm pistol very popular with police agencies in many countries including the United States, and a Walther P22 (right, above), a .22 caliber pistol that is primarily used as a practice or target pistol. The Glock is typically sold with two standard 15-round factory magazines, a capacity fairly standard among comparable sized 9mm pistols. The P22 is typically sold with a pair of ten-round magazines.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
09:11 AM
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1
I think the argument that needs to be made is that the anti-gun attitude and laws actually made the victims more vulnerable. If but one person had possession of a fire arm they could have stopped the killer.
I was in a similar situation in the early 70's. At that time people carried more than they do now. The fact that the population was armed and willing to use force contained the shooting incident.
So instead on more legislation, we need less.
Posted by: David Caskey at April 17, 2007 09:15 AM (G5i3t)
2
I'm sure you've already seen this, but I thought it interesting how foreign press responded to the VA Tech shootings -before- it was discovered that the student was from South Korea.
""The ... slaughter forces American society to once again examine itself, its violence, the obsession with guns of part of its population, the troubles of its youth, subjected to the double tyranny of abundance and competition," it wrote."
Irony. A foreign student goes on a shooting spree on a gun free campus.
"The Leftist Il Manifesto newspaper said the shooting was "as American as apple pie.""
Weird, I never saw any apple pie when I was in Korea.
The amount of hits he got with handguns (and his age) tells me that he probably did his 2 years compulsory military service in Korea.
Posted by: paully at April 17, 2007 09:32 AM (gCPlj)
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ps: Both sources are correct in naming him (Seung Hui Cho vs Cho Seung Hui), as in Korea the family name appears before the given name.
pps: I was equally disgusted by the student(s) who was(were) quoted as saying "I hope no one I know was hurt." I've seen that on a few websites.
Posted by: paully at April 17, 2007 10:01 AM (gCPlj)
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Paully. I doubt that he would have received extensive handgun training as a conscript. They mentioned that he was a 23 year old senior. That leaves little leeway between graduating high school and going to college.
Posted by: BohicaTwentyTwo at April 17, 2007 10:11 AM (oC8nQ)
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a few things I find odd:
He would take the time to remove the ser numbers, yet not remove the receipt from his wallet from a purchase made in March?
That the crime lab would have been able to locate the gun shop that sold the weapon so fast?
Posted by: weaponeer at April 17, 2007 11:06 AM (75T7G)
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he was 23 years old, and came to the US in 1992.
an 8 year old conscript???
Posted by: weaponeer at April 17, 2007 11:10 AM (75T7G)
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It doesn’t surprise me that they may have found the receipt in his jacket.
According to the post, he made the purchase in March. If he’s anything like most of us – and I use this term lightly - he probably simple left the receipt in his pocket. Over the last few days it’s been unseasonable cold in VA, so he probably just got up and put on a warmer jacket which still had a receipt in the pocket from March.
Posted by: Mark at April 17, 2007 01:05 PM (zKa2J)
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Does ABC News or Brian Ross Have Any Integrity at All?
A day after posting a blog entry replete with falsehoods, and despite more than dozens of comments pointing out the factual inaccuracies of the story, Brian Ross and Dana Hughes of the ABC News blog "The Blotter" have yet to issue a retraction.
Does ABC News have an obligation to report facts, or is peddling a political agenda buttressed by lies their preferred stock in trade?
As I noted
yesterday, the ABC News blog did not get so much as a single fact in their blog entry correct.
The Ross entry states that high-capacity magazines "became widely available for sale when Congress failed to renew a law that banned assault weapons." This is a patently false statement, containing no truth at all.
High-capacity magazines have been around for more than half a century, and the sale of high-capacity magazines was not impacted
whatsoever by the 1994 Crime Bill. These magazines were freely and commercially available, both in retail stores and online, without interruption, for the 10-year life of the ban, the decades preceding it, and afterward.
Ross implies that high-capacity magazines are now for sale on Web sites as a result of the ban expiring. Again, this is a deceptive, inaccurate statement.
The fact of the matter is that high-capacity magazines were always available for purchase (as noted above) both online, and in retail stores, without interruption.
I stated yesterday:
This Blotter entry by Ross and Hughes is a study in bias, wrapped around ignorance, justified by fear.
I'll now add to this that it is now quite possible that Ross' entry is a study in willful media deception as well. The Blotter's own
moderated comments section contains dozens of posts warning ABC News that the information contained in the post was incorrect.
Brian Ross and Dana Hughes can't even get their facts right about the 94 AW law nor can ABC fabricate a legit connection between high capacity magazine availability and this crime.
Just the usual liberal bias against gun ownership.
Posted by: sssss | Apr 16, 2007 3:07:54 PM
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For the record, the federal law that lapsed didn't have any effect on the sale of high-cap magazines. Sales of existing magazines with capacities over ten rounds was entirely legal after the 1994 Act. What was prohibited was the manufacture of new magazines.
Posted by: Jeffersonian | Apr 16, 2007 3:09:34 PM
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The magazines (not clips) were available during the ban on them, as anything that had been manufactured prior to the ban was grandfathered in. The "ban" banned nothing and was democratic showmanship at it's worse.
You can't ban firearms in the US, they are a constitutionally protected right. Again, the shooter is at fault, not the tool he used.
Posted by: Brian Heck | Apr 16, 2007 3:25:08 PM
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Lets stick to facts for a side story. This article implies that the person guilty of this used large capacity clips and assault style weapons. all unknown @ this time. As an earlier post stated - lots of small capacity magazines can sould like one large capacity. The Magazine size limit was no clips 10 or over could be manufactured for sale in the US. this didn't stop the existing quantity to be resold.
As to the description of spraying requires large capacity clips. Two handguns with 9 round clips would sound like 18 rounds going off rapidly. If the person was truely Spraying fire into classrooms then Large capacity clips were the least infraction. Automatic weapons as seen in hollywood flicks spraying fire downrange were banned in 1934 for private ownership. either the person had a license for the weapon (unlikely)or modified (in violation of the law) the weapon to fire automaticly.
Again I ask to stick to facts and not jump to conclusions about what may have exasperated the situation to promote a political agenda.
Posted by: glenn | Apr 16, 2007 3:26:18 PM
This is just a sampling of comments left in the moderated comments thread accompanying the Ross blog entry.
Every single one of these comments went past an ABC News employee. This ABC News employee either decided not to investigate the multiple inaccuracies noted by readers, or passed the information on to Ross, who also declined to address the multiple falsehoods contained in his post. In either event, Ross and ABC News have had ample time to correct a blog entry devoid of facts, and they have declined to do so.
This is media malpractice and what many would consider willful deception.
Facts and truth do not apparently matter to ABC News.
Pushing a political agenda is clearly their goal, even if that agenda must be supported by abject falsehoods.
Update: It is also worth noting that one of the
weapons used did not have a high-capacity magazine by
any definition, and the other is typically used with a standard 15-round non-extended magazine that is moe or less an industry norm for pistols of its size.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
08:23 AM
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1
Holy cow! ABC News caught in a lie? I'm spiralling, spiralling!
Posted by: Dan Collins at April 17, 2007 08:36 AM (Ouds1)
2
ABC still hasn't come clean on its reporting linking the Anthrax terrorist attacks on American soil to Saddam Hussein. Some people still think the 9/11 hijackers were Iraqi citizens. Expect the falsehoods from which myths are made to become the facts. It'll take years of dedicated work sorting out the spin, lies, half-truths, propaganda, etc that spews forth daily from our government, media sources and instant pundits. ... Hang it up.
Posted by: Jethro at April 17, 2007 09:23 AM (LBpxw)
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The Browning High Power was patented in 1927. It held 14 rounds 80 years ago. It is still being manufactured.
Posted by: Rick at April 17, 2007 09:44 AM (yweiJ)
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High-capacity magazines have been around for more than half a century, and the sale of high-capacity magazines was not impacted whatsoever by the 1994 Crime Bill.
Not entirely true- they became quite a bit more expensive once they stopped making new ones for the civilian market, by a factor of about 3x.
Posted by: rosignol at April 17, 2007 09:57 AM (ofA/v)
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guns don't kill people. Only those with student visas who can buy guns and carry them into school buildings...how does a guy, not a citizen, buy a gun in the short time in this country and with at best a student visa (hey, can a terrorist student from Pakistan do this too?)...
The silly posting every once in a while about some guy whos uses his legal gun to stop a theief hardly deals with what is going on in our country. I don't want to ban guns but I do want to see better controls put in place...
Now, if you buy a car, it is registered, insured and checked yearly for you to drive it (license renewaql), but guns???
You can dump on this or that media outlet but there are now some 30 plus kids dead. And you can say that not much really happens at our American schools: only Texas, Columbine, and now here...how many will it take before you note a problem ?
meanwhile, here http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory?id=3047369 where guns are owned and carried so all will be safe, we get this in res-ponse and at a college campus!
Posted by: joseph hill at April 17, 2007 10:00 AM (8ETZO)
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Not entirely true- they became quite a bit more expensive once they stopped making new ones for the civilian market, by a factor of about 3x.
It depends on the magazine. While prices did increase for some magazines (and yes some magazines did triple in cost), others remained virtually unchanged, or even went down slightly because of the glut of magazines on the market.
During the entire ban you could routinely find 30-round 7.62x39 magazines for $10-$15, and 30-round 5.56/.223 AR-type magazines for $15-$20.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at April 17, 2007 10:06 AM (9y6qg)
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It is not true that automatic weapons were banned from private ownership in 1934. That law put a $200 transfer tax on the sale of such weapons. Later, another law limited private ownership to the existing transferable stock of such weapons, and that's where it stands today. Automatic weapons are outlawed for private ownership in some states, as a matter of state law. In states where they are legal, purchase requires an FBI background check with fingerprints and sign-off by local law enforcement. The transfer tax remains at $200.
Posted by: Byron at April 17, 2007 10:09 AM (QDeFg)
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Re: licensing drivers: how many people die in the US each year in traffic accidents? How many are drunk (despite laws prohibiting drinking and driving)? How many people are hurt because of willfull reckless driving, or by people deliberately attempting to harm others (I've seen this more than 10 times)?
So, let's ban automobiles.
Cars are a lot more dangerous in the hands of young people than guns are...
Posted by: anon at April 17, 2007 10:21 AM (sbsxG)
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Josh there are rather significant controls in place concerning the purchase of firearms, many states (e.g. NJ and CA) impose elaborate impediments to personal ownership.
I'd also point out that mass shootings are fortunately very very rare. Most have occurred during the contemporary era of gun control.
Lastly car registration and drivers' licensing schemes tend to confirm the futility of regulation. You'll notice that mortalities related to vehicle accidents are almost entirely independent of driver and ownership regulations.
Posted by: Max at April 17, 2007 10:22 AM (7nVHV)
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I'm in agreement with African American blogger, Villager, who said, "AP reports that the 32 people massacred in this episode is the “deadliest shooting rampage in modern U.S. history”. MSNBC reports that this is the “deadliest mass shooting in U.S. history.” I imagine you can look at the first paragraph in most of the reporting being done in your local area and find the same verbiage being used to describe the carnage in Blacksberg, VA."
I wish that AP, MSNBC and other news outlets would be intellectually accurate and honest. The “deadliest mass shooting” or “deadliest shooting rampage” in our nation’s history occurred on June 1, 1921 in the Greenwood neighborhood of Tulsa, Oklahoma. The Tulsa Race Riot, also known as the 1921 Race Riot, the Tulsa Race War, or the Greenwood Riot, was a large-scale civil disorder. During the 16 hours of rioting, over 800 people were admitted to local hospitals with injuries, an estimated 10,000 were left homeless, 35 city blocks composed of 1,256 residences were destroyed by fire, and $1.8 million (nearly $17 million after adjustment for inflation) in property damage. Our glorious Black Wall Street was destroyed in the carnage of that day.
39 people were officially reported killed, although most experts agree that the actual number of Black citizens killed during the riot to be around 300. You can read about it yourself here, here, or here.
This isn’t an effort to compare horrendous situations. Rather, it is part of the continuing effort in the Electronic Village and elsewhere to ensure that OURstory isn’t ignored or forgotten as others write his-story. National columnist Jim Clingman recently wrote about his experience with eight of the survivors of the Black Wall Street murders.
While we mourn for those murdered this week in Virginia, we ask you not allow the Tulsa Race War murders to be swept under the rug of distorted, revised, and repressed history. We must never forget, and we must not allow others to forget either.
Posted by: African American Opion at April 17, 2007 10:25 AM (jogPC)
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In response to Mr. Joseph Hill's post: You don't need permission from state or federal government to buy a car, and you don't need a license to operate that car on private property. And, in any event, cars aren't a protected constitutional right. Your analogy falls flat.
Posted by: Basil Duke at April 17, 2007 10:25 AM (EH38Q)
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Mr. Hill's comment is a study in anti-gun ignorance. Three data points do not a trend make. Let's see, in a nation of 300,000,000 people with an estimated 250,000,000 guns in the hands of 75,000,000 gun owners, a single gunman killed 35+ people at a college that BANNED GUNS ON CAMPUS. So obviously the problem here is gun ownership. Oh those students would be alive today if only there were more pointless feelgood gun laws on the books. The fact that if 1 student in 100 had been armed for self defense, the whole equation would have changed is just swept under the rug.
Mr. Hill mentions Columbine, Texas, and now Virginia Tech and then asks the obvious question...how many will it take before you note a problem? Of course blinded by his bias he presumes the answer is more gun control, he misses the one cogent fact linking all three of these incidents: in each case possession of a firearm was banned on the campus in question. Staff and Faculty were not allowed to have guns for self defense at any one of these sites - only the security staff were. Each instance here is a microcosm of what the consequences of the anti-gunner's utopian fantasy. "Just disarm the sheep" they cry, "and the wolf will have no reason to attack, and if he does, the shepherd will protect us."
It is the willful ignorance and bias of individuals like Mr. Hill that is truly dangerous. Because of people like him, Virginia Tech banned guns, and because of people like him there was no one on campus but local security to protect the students. When they failed the police were called, well now that worked out well didn't it? Guns were banned on campus and by relying on feel good legislation, campus security, and local police to protect the students we now have over 30 people dead. So of course the answer is to do more of the same, only faster and harder. Sadly, in their effort to shield their eyes from the reality of life, people like Mr. Hill are blind to the blood on their own hands.
Posted by: Robert Modean at April 17, 2007 10:44 AM (5nw/O)
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I read one comment comparing guns to cars, what with registrations, inspections, etc... To my knowledge, driving a car (possessing a drivers licence) is a privelege, not a right. Gun ownership, however, is a CONSTITUTIONALLY PROTECTED RIGHT. Big difference.
Posted by: Mike at April 17, 2007 10:47 AM (nBE5A)
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Wouldn't the fact the high-capacity magazines were always widely available, even during the assault weapons ban, actually buttress the case in favor of MORE restrictions? I think the falsehood actually hurts the bias that you are alleging.
Posted by: TruthSeeker at April 17, 2007 11:13 AM (8jv8g)
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Any body see this?
From Allah at Hot Air...
Now the ChiTrib has updated to add: “Cho also died with the words ‘Ismail Ax’ in red ink on the inside of one of his arms.”
Did a little research on the name Hui -doesn't seem to mean much in Korea however in China Hui is a name associated with a large portion of the country's muslims....
Any one have any insight on "Ismail Ax"?
Posted by: Dhimmi Shelter at April 17, 2007 11:55 AM (N/UDU)
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Guns vs cars.
There is no way those can be compared. Cars are made for transportation. Guns are made for hurting people. And don't say they are made for protection, its an lethal object, which only protective ability is fear.
The problem from the start on, is the fact that gun ownership is protected by the constitution, and hence very hard to get rid of. This "right" have created an abundance of weapons in America, for both law-abiding people and villains. Had there been enforced strict restrictions, registration and such, I do not believe that gun armed robberies would be have these high rate. Robberies with a but higher potential threat to cause injury and fatalities.
Posted by: Aaberg at April 17, 2007 12:00 PM (ls3Ze)
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Hey, Aaberg - don't you find it interesting that the guns that are "made to hurt people" kill THOUSANDS fewer people than the cars "made for transportation"?
Guess we better ban cars, eh?
Posted by: Tex Lovera at April 17, 2007 12:17 PM (sssqG)
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A spokesman for Virginia Tech, Larry Hincker, crowed what a victory it was for the Virginia state legislature to defeat a bill which would allow those students and university employees to carry on campus: "I'm sure the university community is appreciative of the General Assembly's actions because this will help parents, students, faculty and visitors feel safe on our campus."
(http://www.roanoke.com/news/roanoke/wb/wb/xp-5065
Yeah, that worked out really well, Lar.
Also, here's and interesting comparison based directly on news accounts between the Killeen, Texas Luby's restaurant massacre of 24 people (before conceal carry was legal in Texas) and two weeks later at a Shoney's restaurant where a licensed gun owner severely wounded and killed two thugs who were beginning to herd 20 people into a walk-in freezer. No innocents were killed.
Of course your average liberal, to escape the inescapble conclusion, would claim this is an apples and oranges comparison since one episode took place at a Luby's restaurant and the other one took place at a Shoney's restaurant - different franchises!
The comparison can be found here:
http://www.keepandbeararms.com/information/XcIBViewItem.asp?ID=1446
Posted by: Hankmeister at April 17, 2007 01:47 PM (1Y1ew)
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"Does ABC News or Brian Ross Have Any Integrity at All?"
No.
Posted by: thebronze at April 17, 2007 02:50 PM (cqr3P)
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This all begs the question: If gun control doesn't stop criminals from getting guns, why should a law against concealed firearms stop anyone from carrying a concealed firearm? If it's concealed, who is going to know? If you have to use it, it's self-defense and no jury will convict you.
Posted by: TruthSeeker at April 17, 2007 03:07 PM (ca1kN)
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Thanks for writing this piece. I mentioned Ross' article in a post today because it went up right in the middle of the massacre, and as I think I rightly pointed out, it was nothing more than using this mass murder to push his own agenda. I also contend that the article itself was pre-written, just waiting for a day such as yesterday to put it up.
And no, ABC, Ross & Co. have no decency, let alone credentials as journalists.
Posted by: Michael Linn Jones at April 17, 2007 03:30 PM (EG68i)
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"If it's concealed, who is going to know? If you have to use it, it's self-defense and no jury will convict you."
Hogwash. Here in MA they'll convict you - not for shooting the bad guy, but for illegal possession.
The anti-gun types are relying on the fact that pro-gun types are strong on law and order. They'll obey the laws, even the stupid ones. Hence the tactic of piling on more and more gun regulations - criminals will ignore them, but they're not the targets of the regulations. And hence the counter-tactic of insisting that we have enough firearms laws, start enforcing the ones we already have. They were never intended to be enforced - not against real criminals, at least.
Posted by: tom swift at April 17, 2007 03:31 PM (OrcrR)
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Truthseeker:
"If it's concealed, who is going to know? If you have to use it, it's self-defense and no jury will convict you."
The point is, the people who obtain concealed carry permits are overwhelmingly law abiding citizens. We comply with the law. We follow the rules. And we are no danger to our fellow citizens. We don't want to break the law regardless of whether we are in danger of being caught.
Posted by: colburn at April 17, 2007 04:05 PM (E3YOM)
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"Hogwash. Here in MA they'll convict you - not for shooting the bad guy, but for illegal possession."
That comment comes from a mind that doesn't understand the difference between doing what's right or doing the right thing.
Posted by: Dave Hein at April 17, 2007 07:42 PM (c8ABA)
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I linked from Virginia Tech: The Day After.
Posted by: Bill Faith at April 17, 2007 08:34 PM (n7SaI)
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Ross is a tick turd. Last night, Primetime ran a piece by Ross on the gun laws of Virginia. Its purpose was to show how easy it is to buy a gun in tha state. The whole thing was a hit piece. He tried as hard as he could to make the gun store owner sound like a criminal. He even started by saying something about how four police had linked four guns sold at the store back to murders. Since he knew that everything was 100% legal, Ross had to manipulate sound bites to paint a different picture. The best effort was a quote from the owner that he had done everything by the book. The way it was inserted into the story, it came across as the dealer being defensive despite not having anything to be defensive about. he At one point, he even said that it took "less time than it takes to get a hairut" to buy a gun.
ABC should be embarassed by Ross' reporting.
Posted by: Steve L. at April 18, 2007 07:15 AM (hpZf2)
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Mr. Hill:
Apparently the shooter, while not a citizen, was a legal resident and had lived in America for some time. The purchanse that has been traced was completely legal. Further, as others have noted, to use Texas, Columbine and VA Tech as your only data points for analyzing the effects of gun violence is incomplete. For example, why not also include the recent Salt Lack City mall incident. If you do so, you will find two glaring differences between SLC and Columbine/VA Tech: 1. fewer deaths (5 in SLC vs. 17/32), and 2. the presence of a licensed, trained citizen carrying a personal firearm that was able to engage and stop the shooter as soon as possible.
The fantasy of snapping one's fingers and making all guns in America simultaneously vanish into thin air is not just a bad idea but impractical in the extreme. It is impossible to stop a determined actor from killing. The most effective way consistently demonstrated to limit the severity of the event is to reduce the time the killer has, and getting ordnance on target does this every time.
AAO: I doubt many would argue the Tulsa Race Riot or Rosewood incident weren't tragic, but I think the unstated assumption of the "deadiest" moniker is that is the deadliest by an individual or small group (e.g. Columbine) as a single event.
Posted by: submandave at April 18, 2007 11:16 AM (UdYT0)
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Dear Aaberg:
Several flaws in your liberal viewpoint argument:
1) If strict gun controls had been the norm in our Constitution, then the only difference in our society would be that the criminals (who will never respect the laws of the land) would know that if they had a gun, there would be no one on the streets, or in a private home, capable of defending themselves. Therefore, less fear for the criminals, and likely even higher robbery/other gun violence on their part.
2) The liberal argument when the cars vs. guns issue is brought up, that cars are for transportation, and guns are to hurt and kill, holds no water. In the hands of responsible and law-abiding citizens, the primary purpose for a gun IS self-defense, and to protect one's self and family against predators with no respect for life.
3) A car in the hands of an irresponsible driver is a 3000lb. lethal weapon, capable of far greater death and destruction than a typical handgun. The relationship between a car and a responsible vs. irresponsible driver, is exactly the same as that of a gun in the hands of a responsible vs. irresponsible citizen. Therefore, if you make the argument that guns should be banned or strictly controlled, then you would by default be making that same argument against cars.
I suggest you go by and rethink your logic in your argument before objectively forming an opinion!
Posted by: Dave at April 23, 2007 09:04 AM (sD2KZ)
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Sorry I missed this dust up. Ross shot his mouth off in UK yesterday, interviewing Scottish anti-gun nuts who can't understand why we won't ban all hand guns like they have. You and your commenters have hit many of the major points.
There is an inverse statistical relationship between gun ownership and violent crime. The more private citizens who own and carry guns, the lower the incidence of murders, voluntary manslaughters, assaults and forceable rapes.
Compare Washington DC, where hand guns are banned to Kennesaw GA where gun ownership is required. One crime rate going up; one crime rate coming down!
99.8% of all firearms and 99.6% of all handguns are never used in a crime.
Since 1991, the US has added 70,000,000 privately owned firearms and right-to-carry states have increased from 17 to 37. There are more guns, more gun owners, more owners carrying, and more people living in areas where people are carrying weapons. What about violent crime? It is down by 35%.
Va Tech is a gun free zone. If someone in Blacksburg had had a weapon and shot Cho when he pulled out his guns, those kids and their profs might be alive today. The administration at Virginia Tech is in some legal trouble for insisting on the campus ban even after an armed fugitive was loose on campus last fall. A fine job the university did protecting its campus.
If I were a college student, I would carry a concealed weapon regardless of the school's policy.
Funerals are more expensive that Glocks.
Posted by: arch at April 24, 2007 04:27 PM (n6Q1C)
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April 16, 2007
The Blotter: Never Let Tragedy or Stupidity Get in the Way of Your Political Agenda
Brian Ross and Dana Hughes prove just how little they know about firearms, laws related to them, and the effects of both with their knee-jerk response to today's Virginia Tech shootings, where they attempt to place the blame not on the shooter, but on high-capacity magazines:
High capacity ammo clips became widely available for sale when Congress failed to renew a law that banned assault weapons.
Web sites now advertise overnight UPS delivery of the clips, which carry up to 40 rounds for both semi-automatic rifles and handguns.
"High capacity magazines read extreme firepower and gusto. Stock Up!" is the headline of one of many gun shop Web sites.
Virginia law enforcement officials have not identified the weapon used in the shootings today at Virginia Tech, but gun experts say the number of shots fired indicate, at the very least, that the gunman had large quantities of ammunition.
"When you have a weapon that can shoot off 20, 30 rounds very quickly, you're going to have a lot more injuries," said Peter Hamm of the Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence.
"It's not one or two shots at a time when you're putting 20 bullets, spraying them into a classroom or into a dorm room," Hamm said.
This blog entry is so ignorant and factually incorrect on so many levels that ABC News should immediately print a correction or a retraction, and require Ross and Hughes to go to a basic firearms safety class before ever being allowed to write about the subject again.
They state:
High capacity ammo clips became widely available for sale when Congress failed to renew a law that banned assault weapons.
This is absolutely and totally false.
First, "clips," literally thin strips of metal designed to hold cartridges for ease in loading, were never addressed in the Violent Crime Control and Law Enforcement Act of 1994.
For that matter, the law never banned existing high magazines either, "magazines" being the word that Ross and Hughes needed, but were too technically ignorant to use.
As a matter of practical fact, if Hughes and Ross had bothered to speak with any experts at all, they would have discovered that high-capacity magazines were never in short supply prior to 1994, and the commercial sale of high-capacity magazines was never slowed, much less stopped, during the ten years the ban was in effect from 1994-2004.
The commercial sale of high capacity magazines was legal during the ban, and the supply of pre-existing magazines was so plentiful that prices for many magazines never increased. In some instances, prices actually
dropped.
Web sites now advertise overnight UPS delivery of the clips, which carry up to 40 rounds for both semi-automatic rifles and handguns.
Again, Ross and Hughes are lazy and factually incorrect.
Large commercial sporting good stores sold high capacity magazines
during the entire life of the ban, because the ban never affected the sale of existing magazines, and there were warehouses full of them. Nor are we limited to 40-round magazines (not clips, which are something else entirely). If you want a
100-round magazine, you can have it shipped the very next day. You always could.
"High capacity magazines read extreme firepower and gusto. Stock Up!" is the headline of one of many gun shop Web sites.
Horrible grammar, perhaps, but at least they know the difference between a magazine and a clip. Online and commercial retail stores, again, have never been affected by the ban in any measurable way, nor have been consumers.
Virginia law enforcement officials have not identified the weapon used in the shootings today at Virginia Tech, but gun experts say the number of shots fired indicate, at the very least, that the gunman had large quantities of ammunition.
There are tens of million of people in this nation with "large quantities of ammunition." Does that mean we're all criminals in the minds of these ABC reporters? Probably.
The fact of the matter is that high-capacity magazines were never difficult to get, and that even standard capacity magazines would have made very little difference in today's tragic shooting. For anyone with even a rudimentary familiarity with their firearm, changing a magazine takes less than three seconds. Those who practice can make a magazine change in less than that. Whether a shooter has two 15-round magazines or three 10-round magazines, the outcome would likely be very much the same.
Once again, Ross and Hughes spray rhetorical blanks, and hit nothing.
But they aren't quite done yet: now they need an expert opinion to provide the illusion of competence and objectivity.
Send in the clown.
"When you have a weapon that can shoot off 20, 30 rounds very quickly, you're going to have a lot more injuries," said Peter Hamm of the Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence.
"It's not one or two shots at a time when you're putting 20 bullets, spraying them into a classroom or into a dorm room," Hamm said.
I sholdn't have to point out the fact that their "expert" is from the anti-gun Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence, a viciously anti-gun group, who is as light on the facts and as high on rhetoric as is Ross and Hughes. Note how Hamm purposefully uses the word "spray" to create an image of machine gun fire, even though machine guns are strictly regulated, and no one is even suggesting one was used in Blacksburg. I’d also note the obvious and undisputed fact that a weapon with a high-capacity magazine does not fire any faster than one with a regular magazine.
This Blotter entry by Ross and Hughes is a study in bias, wrapped around ignorance, justified by fear.
I don't think that is how ABC News should run their newsroom, but then, that is their decision to make.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
03:23 PM
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1
It's amazing how little people know about firearms.
I know a lot of crime writers who know almost nothing about the firearms they write about. Of course, that doesn't include the ones who are cops or ex-military.
Posted by: David Terrenoire at April 16, 2007 03:59 PM (kxecL)
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They've got a script and they're sticking to it
The liberals, like Ross, who are in control of the MSM will do somersaults to blame anyone but the person responsible for such a horrible massacre
No different from their reporting of the daily massacres of similar nature that occur in Iraq.
SEen from the prism of politics, these horrific acts are blamed on the "occupation", just as this killers hateful acts will be blamed on the gun lobby.
Sometimes, people are just evil, and they commit evil acts.
Posted by: TMF at April 16, 2007 04:29 PM (cGtRE)
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I don't know if ABC delays comments on the Blotter, but they are modded with a heavy hand. It seems they're no longer taking comments on the clips article.
Posted by: mark l. at April 16, 2007 04:30 PM (e82bf)
Posted by: anon at April 16, 2007 06:56 PM (2Ntgd)
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Why is it the Left always blames the tool rather than the responsible individual? All those dead students might be alive today if the college hadn't made them sitting ducks by making the campus a gun free zone. In Britain gun related crime has exploded despite disarming the law abidding with predictable results.
Posted by: Thomas Jackson at April 16, 2007 11:44 PM (YXXuO)
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Great Post. I was going to write a very similar post myself because I noticed the exact same thing, but you said it perfectly, so I'll just link to you.
I was watching TV tonight and the reporter kept calling the sale of firearms a "loophole", and it wasn't an editorial. Just regular news.
Posted by: brando at April 17, 2007 12:56 AM (uZ35s)
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I tried to leave a comment several hours ago pointing out some of their technical errors but they apparently only post attaboy comments. I excerpted and linked your post at Virginia Tech: The Day After
Posted by: Bill Faith at April 17, 2007 04:11 AM (n7SaI)
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Ban all guns!!! Then ban Knives, boxcutters, screwdrivers, sticks, rocks, bows, arrows, spears, Paper (paper cuts), automobiles, dogs, cats, UFO's (they do illegal operations ya know), glass, hard plastic, nails, nail guns, staple guns, well... anything with GUN in it,
Then we can wrap pillows around all the semi-sharp edges and block out 237 of our 240 channels and sit around the fire (virtual of course) singing camp songs.
OR........
Hold the crooks and idiots responsible for their actions.
Posted by: Retired Navy at April 17, 2007 05:11 AM (0EcTE)
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Addressing only the "clip" vs. "magazine" issue here.
I'm a member of the technically illiterate masses. I've heard both terms over the years. It seems to me that they have always been used interchangeably, "clip" being the slightly hipper form.
Isn't it possible that the authors knew what part of the weapon they were talking about, but used a word that, while technically inaccurate, had become common usage among those who are not gun enthusiasts?
Posted by: Doc Washboard at April 17, 2007 08:20 AM (beaHJ)
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Navy:
While I certainly agree with you that we must hold the crooks and idiots responsible for their actions in regard to gun deaths, there is a certain amount of "closing the barn door after the horse has escaped" to that approach.
I can't speak for everyone who favors gun control, but I think that the big idea there is that it would be better to get the weapon out of the hand of the crook and the idiot before the killing happens, rather than be satisfied with punishing the wrongdoer after someone has already been killed.
Posted by: Doc Washboard at April 17, 2007 08:27 AM (beaHJ)
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Doc,
I hear ya. I kow a lot of people who have a great deal of expertise in firearms. One is Fred Rea of Florida. He's the absolute best. Another friend, former DEA agent and current hardcore cop, goes to Fred for the finer points of firearms and if it's good enough for him, it's good enough for me.
I also own an M1, the classic clip-fed weapon (clang) and a GI .45, a classic magazine-fed handgun. I know the difference between the two but you're right, clip has been used so often by so many that they've become synonymous. It's like calling my .45 an automatic when, to be accurate, it's a semi-automatic.
We pedants will continue to correct people and there's not much anyone can do about that. My excuse is I'm old and not about to change.
But the larger issue here, even though I was the first to post on this thread, is that we've stepped away from the real tragedy of this shooting to focus on nomenclature and picking another partisan fight.
I for one want to step back, take a deep breath, and let the human side of this human tragedy sink in and, at least for a day, not argue petty points of difference.
That's just me, but I thought it needed to be said.
Posted by: David Terrenoire at April 17, 2007 08:39 AM (kxecL)
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Trackbacked by The Thunder Run - Web Reconnaissance for 04/17/2007
A short recon of what’s out there that might draw your attention.
Posted by: David M at April 17, 2007 09:34 AM (kNjJk)
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What bothered me most yesterday -- besides the obvious lack of preparation for crisis management by the overpaid VPI administration, is that no one is talking about the defeat in the state General Assembly in August 2006 of a bill which would have permitted adult students and professors to do what is permitted in the rest of the Old Dominion: to lawfully carry concealed, registered weapons.
If one professor or one grad student had been armed there would have been a lot less carnage.
Read a grad student's op ed piece at Gates of Vienna. I precede his essay with a snarky response to it by the Roanoke Times -- it was more effective to run them "backwards" after the fact. His supercilious attitude stands out better that way.
I wonder if the Roanoke Times will run a second piece by the grad student *now*...
Here's the beginning of his essay from 2006:
"On Aug. 21 at about 9:20 a.m., my graduate-level class was evacuated from the Squires Student Center. We were interrupted in class and not informed of anything other than the following words: “You need to get out of the building.”
Upon exiting the classroom, we were met at the doors leading outside by two armor-clad policemen with fully automatic weapons, plus their side arms. Once outside, there were several more officers with either fully automatic rifles and pump shotguns, and policemen running down the street, pistols drawn.
It was at this time that I realized that I had no viable means of protecting myself.
Please realize that I am licensed to carry a concealed handgun in the commonwealth of Virginia, and do so on a regular basis. However, because I am a Virginia Tech student, I am prohibited from carrying at school..."
http://gatesofvienna.blogspot.com/2007/04/ringing-down-days-va-tech-students.html
Posted by: dymphna at April 17, 2007 09:59 AM (UbHn6)
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oops-- my reference isn't clear...my bad, didn't hit "review" button.
By "his" snarky attitude, I meant the guy at the Roanoke Times, not the student.
Like UVa, Roanoke is a Blue Blob in a red state.
Posted by: dymphna at April 17, 2007 10:03 AM (UbHn6)
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Hi,
Great blog!
I like the office view!
If you have time, please submit the view to my new blog: www.viewfromoffice.com and in return I’ll include a link to your blog!
Thanks!
Posted by: piyawan at April 18, 2007 02:54 AM (0+V6E)
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Regarding high capacity magazines not being banned:
http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/F?c103:1:./temp/~c103BbFdci:e650830:
Posted by: mark at April 18, 2007 07:47 AM (1eh9z)
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Multiple Shootings at Virginia Tech
At least one shooter eyewitnesses identified as an "Asian" male wearing military load-bearing equipment has shot between 7-17 students and faculty members at Virginia Tech in Blacksburg, Virginia.
One fatality has been confirmed, and one shooter is in custody as the campus remains on a lockdown while police search for a second gunman. The first shootings took place in a dormitory, and a second rounds of gunfire erupted in an engineering classroom building at the opposite end of campus hours later. The campus has been shutdown and students are locked down as police scour the campus for a possible second shooter.
Collegiate Times, the Va. Tech student newspaper, is stating that there are 22 fatalities, including one shooter. The web site also states that three men were arrested and escorted from the engineering building.
I'm not sure how accurate these accounts are, and cannot find a corroborating source to support these claimed fatalities. I would therefore recommend this being regarded as rumor for now. If true, however, this may be the deadliest collegiate shooting in modern history.
Update High number of fatalities
confirmed, via AP.
Update:
The following is an educated guess, and may be incorrect: Based upon the high number of fatalities among those shot, and the high number of victims overall, and the description of the shooter as wearing some sort of load-bearing vest, I'm going to make an educated guess and suggest that the shooter was likely armed with a 7.62x39mm semi-automatic rifle, probably patterned on the AK-47.
There are a couple of reasons why I feel this is probably the type of weapon used.
- The description a shooter "wearing a vest covered in clips." The witness seems to be describing load-bearing equipment, typically made for either 5.56 NATO or 7.62x39 magazines, the two most standard assault rifle calibers. The typical standard magazine for each weapon is typically 30 rounds.
- Of the two calibers, the 7.62x39 is a far more lethal bullet across a wider range of conditions than the 5.56 NATO or slightly less powerful .223 Remington variant that can be fired from the same weapon. People shot with 5.56 NATO rounds often survive after even being hit with multiple shots. The high number of fatalities suggests a more lethal caliber and/or cartridge.
- The rifles patterned after AK-series are typically far less expensive (often less than $500) than those patterned on the AR15/M16 platform (often more than $900-1,000), and are also often more plentiful for sale.
Obviously, our prayers go out to those Virginia Tech faculty, students, staff, and family members affected by this tragedy.
Update: I'd like to make one last statement about this after reading Allah's
latest update, noting that a bill to allow students to carry handguns was recently quashed in the Virginia General Assembly.
When I was a T.A. in graduate school at East Carolina University in the mid-1990s, I knew several graduate and undergraduate students that illegally carried concealed weapons on a fairly regular basis. Contrary to what you might suspect, most of these students were female liberal arts majors. One of my students in the class that I taught brought a Browning .380 to class every day. I felt safe knowing my fellow students were armed. I also felt better when the left the building at night that they could protect themselves and others from any predators that may have been about.
Would the number of students shot at Virginia Tech today have been lower if student there were allowed to take a training class, get a permit, and carry a concealed weapon on campus? There is of course not way to be sure. I do think it is obvious that an armed student or faculty member could have at least made taking their lives a far more difficult.
I'd urge a far more somber Virginia General Assembly, and the General Assembly of other states, to consider letting student who have satisfied their state requirements to carry concealed weapons also carry those weapons on campus. The lives saved may belong to someone dear to them.
Update: 32 killed, 28 wounded.
NBC is citing two anonymous law enforcement officials as saying that a pair of 9mm handguns were used in the rampage. This does not seem to match up with eariler reports of the shooter wearing what sounded like military load-bearing equipment, and if accurate, means my earlier educated guess was based upon inaccurate assumptions, as I noted it could be.
A clearer picture separating the fact from rumor will begin to emerge over the coming days.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
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I work with a guy who still has close contacts at Tech. he says his friends told him the shooter caught his girlfriend in bed w/ an RA(?). then went out, got a gun and came back.
Honestly, this makes no sense, and it's second hand (from someone who's talked to students).
very sad, however.
Posted by: Lee at April 16, 2007 12:00 PM (z1P7a)
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Something doesn't smell right about that many dead by a shooter with a 9mm. Something bigger and someone who doesn't know guns thinks anything that shape is automatically a 9mm? I linked at http://www.smalltownveteran.net/bills_bites/2007/04/at_least_32_dea.html
Posted by: Bill Faith at April 16, 2007 01:35 PM (n7SaI)
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I'll wait until the facts are in on this one. I think few people would be able to know the difference between a 9 mm and .40 by just looking at it.
Posted by: BohicaTwentyTwo at April 16, 2007 01:50 PM (oC8nQ)
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initial reports say the killer was an asian man
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18134671/
Posted by: Ami at April 16, 2007 02:05 PM (OWDoH)
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Wow, ami, that's very worrisome. Please keep us posted. Did they mention his party affiliation?
Posted by: Vance Maverick at April 16, 2007 02:57 PM (+UW68)
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Latest information I have is two weapons. A 9mm and a .22 cal handgun and wearing a vest filled with ammunition/clips for the weapons.
Posted by: crosspatch at April 16, 2007 03:04 PM (pxZRL)
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Glad you got your priorities straight. First, baselessly speculate on what kind of sexy firearms were used in the shooting. Then after that you can offer condolences to the family.
Don't forget to throw in your own personal political statements on gun laws in after the fact too, that way the sympathetic statement gets about 2% of the content.
Posted by: verplanck colvin at April 16, 2007 04:06 PM (TmSaI)
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The tone of this post is fine.
Posted by: jpe at April 16, 2007 05:26 PM (/0hb2)
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verplanck,
Um....
It is obvious from the tone and content of your post that you have your politics...errr...."priorities" straight.
I guess you can not tell the difference from people stating that the speculation as to what was used is inaccurate and "sexy firearm" sarcastic shinola.
Of course we all know that if this were some Islamofascist splodeydope or Gaia worshipping ecoterrorist with a bomb you would be praising and making excuses for his/her/its actions. You would probably be speculating as to whether they packed it with nails or ball berings.
Posted by: Ennis at April 16, 2007 06:34 PM (wmHnL)
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Ami, what is your point?
Posted by: Sarah at April 16, 2007 06:39 PM (zpJBl)
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Ennis,
Or I could do what I did today, mourn for the loss of life.
Posted by: verplanck colvin at April 16, 2007 06:40 PM (TmSaI)
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"Of course we all know that if this were some Islamofascist splodeydope or Gaia worshipping ecoterrorist with a bomb you would be praising and making excuses for his/her/its actions. You would probably be speculating as to whether they packed it with nails or ball berings."
Equating liberals with terrorists or terrorist sympathizers is like comparing conservatives with fascists or Nazis. Both comparisons are inflammatory and irresponsible.
Sorry to go off topic, but even as a moderate, I found this a little hard to swallow.
Posted by: Come on at April 16, 2007 07:22 PM (6Frw1)
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"Equating liberals with terrorists or terrorist sympathizers is like comparing conservatives with fascists or Nazis. Both comparisons are inflammatory and irresponsible.
Sorry to go off topic, but even as a moderate, I found this a little hard to swallow."
Accuracy is often the most jagged of pills.
Posted by: JD at April 16, 2007 07:56 PM (Hbrqi)
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Yeah, continue slinging partisan insults. See where it gets you.
Posted by: come on at April 16, 2007 10:57 PM (fR1tJ)
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Accuracy is often the most jagged of pills.
That doesn't even make any sense.
Posted by: Xanthippas at April 17, 2007 12:18 AM (yH6kI)
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CNN was interviewing a doctor from one of the local hospitals this morning. He said all the victims had multiple gunshot wounds. It sounds like this guys primary goal was to end life. You don't need a high caliber weapon if you are going to double tap anyone you shoot. One eyewitness also said she saw the shooter reload, quickly dropping out one magazine and slamming the other one in like he trained for a quick reload. Police train for quick reloads, but its more likely that this guy watched a lot of movies and practiced this a lot.
Posted by: BohicaTwentyTwo at April 17, 2007 07:23 AM (oC8nQ)
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The problem is not all the guns we own, the problem is the media culture that glamorizes and glorifies shooting people with guns. We need to change that dynamic if we want to lower the rate of gun violence in this country.
Watching less TV would be a good start...
Posted by: swamp thing at April 18, 2007 12:26 AM (wwkbh)
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April 13, 2007
AOL Poll Results Thus Far: Can Rosie
It's not looking good for a certain 9/11 Truther.
As of 1:06 PM (EDT), 82% of 6,873 people casting votes in the
America Online poll agree that Rosie O' Donnell should be fired.
The link for the Drudge Report probably isn't helping Rosie fans, but I doubt it is swinging things too much.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
12:16 PM
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1
"No, controversial is different than racist"
Yes, but she makes and has made racially insensitive comments as well. Does "ching chang chung" ring a bell?
Posted by: Hogarth at April 13, 2007 12:30 PM (F1thZ)
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Sure, "controversial" is different than "racist", but it is also different from "lying" and "supporting the enemy". When Rosie lies about the perpetrators of 9/11 and says on her show that the government of Iran is telling the truth and the British government is lying, that is not controversial. That is lying, and deliberately spreading the propaganda of a nation that is in a proxy war against us. When the real truth comes out, Rosie is proved to be a liar and and a modern Tokyo Rose. Not controversial.
Posted by: David in New York at April 13, 2007 12:48 PM (457me)
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What happened to Tokyo Rose after WWII?
Posted by: Rich at April 13, 2007 12:49 PM (9XOaQ)
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Looking at those pictures, I think Rosie should donate some subcutanious fat to Imus! A direct lipo pipeline from one fathead to a cadaverous shrunken head.
Does anyone have that "If They Mated" morphing software? What would the spawn of Rosie and Imus look like? Strangley, I think they would balance-out!
Posted by: edhesq at April 13, 2007 12:51 PM (BKX7n)
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It's time to purge the airwaves of "Truthers".
Posted by: anil petra at April 13, 2007 12:52 PM (dLZyb)
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The second question is more worriesome; the idea that the witchunt will continue is winning by a similar margin.
Posted by: TC@LeatherPenguin at April 13, 2007 01:15 PM (roWez)
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Polls never ever ask questions the way I think they should. I couldn't answer that one. It's sort of like answering "have you stopped beating your wife."
Should Rosie be fired? Heck yeah.
Does it have anything to do with Imus? Heck no.
Yet answering that Rosie should be fired is more or less agreeing that Imus should have been fired *now* for *this*.
If he should have been fired *now* for *this* then probably he should have been fired a very very long time ago.
Rosie isn't being rude and obnoxious, or racist, or anything else. From the sounds of it she's spewing the Truther lies that are not *opinion* but concern matters of fact. She's not getting into insult at this point but slander.
Posted by: Synova at April 13, 2007 01:17 PM (8HO37)
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Tokyo Rose? Interesting story there...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tokyo_Rose
"the influential gossip columnist and radio host Walter Winchell lobbied against her. She was brought to the U.S., where she was charged and subsequently convicted of treason."
Mind you, this is after:
"After the war, she was investigated and released when the FBI and the U.S. Army's Counter Intelligence Corps found no evidence against her."
So basically you can blame the press for her conviction for treason (witnesses lied as well). She was pardoned by President Ford in 1977.
Posted by: Jeff at April 13, 2007 01:30 PM (yiMNP)
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As of 1:30 PM CDT, there are now 13,756 votes with 81% siding with firing her.
I think she should be fired for saying stupid stuff like fire doesn't melt steel. Hasn't she, or anyone in her audience that cheered her on the view, ever heard of a steel mill, know anyone from Pittsburg, or even seen Terminator 2.
Posted by: Leland at April 13, 2007 01:33 PM (yDsrH)
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Turn the lights on! It's time to let everyone know what everyone says. I suggest Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton be first in the tumbril.
Posted by: cris at April 13, 2007 02:17 PM (GE7hs)
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notice the push bias in the question: "...as Delay wants."
Posted by: mike d at April 13, 2007 02:24 PM (uXlmD)
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Polls never give me the options I want.
While what Rosie has said is appallingly stupid, I still don't think she should be fired. But not because "controversial is different than racist". I think she should be retained because she draws such attention to her stupid blabber. By arguing against Rosie's very public idiocy, hopefully the debunking of at least some of the pervasive conspiracy theories will become more well-known.
I say let the fool have her podium to spew from - so everyone can see and hear just how foolish her ideas are.
Posted by: Amelia at April 13, 2007 02:32 PM (s4lME)
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Rosie is the fat version of Al Sharpton.
Posted by: Marie V at April 13, 2007 02:42 PM (po1ua)
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the dundewrdhead ab oive me in the comments is venomous...Al used to be heavy. Is fat the next F word? Rosie may be consipracy nut then so too are a lot of Americans. I don't see sponsors willing to withdraw their money. Heyt. You don't likeher, don't
watch. Imus insulted gays, blacks, disabled, Am indians, and Jews....all on record. And Rosie?
Posted by: joseph hill at April 13, 2007 02:48 PM (8ETZO)
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What the hell does Tom Delay have to do with how I see things. I think the question on the poll stinks. I don't want to be in the same boat with *Tom or Rosie* either of them. I'll fish with Don Imus any day! I think he has a good heart!
Posted by: Randy at April 13, 2007 02:50 PM (7ppVp)
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Rosie should be fired out of a cannon, into the sun.
Posted by: damaged justice at April 13, 2007 03:21 PM (7JQXZ)
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Too much prejudice here--Rosie is just a cruel, vile, dishonest person; is that any reason to dislike her?
Posted by: buddly larsen at April 13, 2007 03:34 PM (lCS93)
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Rosie did make racist comments but against asians a politically weak group.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A0HtTReGt08
Posted by: McAristotle at April 14, 2007 08:47 AM (V4Baq)
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She's definitely a Truther based on recent remarks. She should be in a cage being poked with sharp sticks by rabid baboons.
Posted by: Purple Avenger at April 14, 2007 09:59 AM (UWdQL)
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Fire Rosie? Maybe we should wait until next week...when she starts saying that eeevil neo-cons make their matzoh with the blood of liberal children. /sarcasm
Posted by: pst314 at April 14, 2007 11:16 AM (lCxSZ)
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Ithink probably the best thing for supporteres of Imus is to try and make the story about others. Rap singers are also bad and Rosie too.
I used to try that defense with my mom, everybody else does it, but it never worked.
Posted by: John Ryan at April 14, 2007 04:12 PM (TcoRJ)
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John,
It is not defending Imus. He said something stupid and apologized for it. Quite honestly the Rutgers players should have gotten on camera and given him the finger. That would have made things even.
The question here is what you do with others who say things like Imus did. Rosie, Jesse, Al, heck I even heard racist jokes on Jay Leno last night. Shouldn't the thought police be after all these people too?
Posted by: Specter at April 14, 2007 08:22 PM (ybfXM)
Posted by: MyFriendOtis at April 14, 2007 08:53 PM (bq6Sz)
24
There are many MSM faux journalists/circus clowns that are more offensive and dishonest and should be fired before a second rate politically incorrect comedian like Rosie. A short list would include Hannity, O'Rielly, Beck, Limbaugh, Coulter, Cheney, and the entire Bush administration. People who live in glass houses shouldn't start rock throwing contests.
Posted by: ec1009 at April 15, 2007 09:51 AM (xcGis)
25
Rosie should be fired out of a cannon, into the sun.
CY, whenever a Lefty says something like that about Coulter or Malkin or someone of that ilk, you and your Righty posters are quick to say something on the order of, "A-ha! 'Progressives' show their true colors! Notice how they advocate violence against those they disagree with. The Right never stoops to that level."
I know it's your blog and all, but wrong in one direction is wrong in the other as well, and you've always struck me as one of the most evenhanded of the Righty bloggers. Do you condone this? Also: how about the sharp sticks and the rabid baboons? That shite could hurt!
Posted by: Doc Washboard at April 15, 2007 02:16 PM (sps4Z)
26
The left are the ones who follow through Doc.
Hey, did you hear that Afghanistan just joined the club of countries to sport commie era mass graves?
I figure that finally puts'em on the map. You ain't nobody until you got your own leftist generated mass grave(s) to brag about.
Posted by: Purple Avenger at April 15, 2007 05:47 PM (UWdQL)
27
Doc,
Well - maybe CY used a little more of a metaphor than you like for "firing". But seriously, do you support the racist and "off-color" remarks that come out of the mouths of Rosie, Jesse, Al, Al Franken, Bill Maher, David Letterman, etc. Or is it OK if they say stuff like that? I mean I really need to understand the frame of thought here - and since you seem to rationally discuss most things (as opposed to say Lex Steele), maybe you can give me an answer.
And if they are saying things that are "wrong", do we all get together to censor them? Or do you really thin free speech is something we should all have.
Looking forward to your answer.
Posted by: Specter at April 15, 2007 07:16 PM (ybfXM)
28
The left are the ones who follow through Doc.
The only conceivable interpretation of this comment is that you're saying Malkin, Coulter and Rove et al have, in fact, all been killed by angry Lefties.
Have you ever noticed that you never, ever make a scrap of sense, Avenger? Rational discussion is impossible after you've followed your scorched-earth policy against sanity.
Posted by: Doc Washboard at April 15, 2007 07:33 PM (sps4Z)
29
Specter:
Free speech is free speech. Imus seems like a dumbass, but I've never heard his show, so I'm not qualified to make a judgment. I think that what he said was reprehensible, but one of the cool things about living in America is that we get to say reprehensible things if we want to. Nobody has to listen.
The firing is tricky. On the one hand, the organization we work for gets to set a standard for dress, speech and so on. If we don't like it, we can work somewhere else. On the other hand, controlling speech through hiring and firing seems to go against the whole "free speech" thing. Both sides have a point, as is so often the case.
The rock-bottom test would be whether Imus gets to stand on the street corner and spout his stuff to anyone who'll listen. If he does, then we're in business. If he were to be officially stopped from doing this, we'd have a problem.
Both Rosie and Imus can bite me, as far as I'm concerned, but I don't have to agree with them to know that they have a right to say whatever the hell they want.
Posted by: Doc Washboard at April 15, 2007 07:45 PM (sps4Z)
30
Doc,
But see - you support the firing of Imus. But for some reason you can't seem to pass judgment on others who spout the same kind of hatred. Why is that? I don't understand why you support such a double standard. Can you explain that to me?
Posted by: Specter at April 15, 2007 08:48 PM (ybfXM)
31
Well, Specter, what I actually said was, "On the other hand, controlling speech through hiring and firing seems to go against the whole "free speech" thing. Both sides have a point, as is so often the case." What I meant by that was, essentially, that both sides have a point. It's difficult to construe that as "support[ing] the firing of Imus."
I also wrote that "I don't have to agree with them to know that they have a right to say whatever the hell they want" and "Nobody has to listen."
Further, you write that I "can't seem to pass judgment on others who spout the same kind of hatred." I don't know what others you're talking about. I haven't come down on one side or the other with respect to the issue of bloviating celebrities here or in any other blog, as far as I can remember.
You have a pre-fab narrative that you want to impose on what I said, and it won't work. You and I are, I think, in agreement on this issue. You'll need to fight with someone else.
Posted by: Doc Washboard at April 15, 2007 09:08 PM (sps4Z)
32
Doc,
Not pre-fab. I specifically asked you about your opinions of Rosie, Jesse, Al Sharpton, Al Franken, Bill Maher, David Letterman, and others. Why are you not passing judgment on them?
Posted by: Specter at April 15, 2007 09:41 PM (ybfXM)
33
And yes...overall Doc I do think we are in agreement...just so you know.
Posted by: Specter at April 15, 2007 09:42 PM (ybfXM)
34
To be honest, I don't know what some of the people you mention have done.
My situation is this: I don't get any TV channels where I live, and I only get the local public radio station, which mainly plays Celtic music and other cacaraca. I'm the wrong guy to ask about all this stuff. I know who the people are, but, for example, I've never seen Bill Maher on TV.
I know Al Franken only from his SNL work; I've never read one of his books or heard his radio show.
I was totally unaware that Letterman had done anything untoward, but, again, I'm out of the loop.
Rosie O'Donnell wore out her welcome pretty fast with her talk show, and I've never seen her on whatever show she's on now.
Sharpton seems like kind of a bozo, and Jackson appears to have outlived his political usefulness to the Left.
The fact of the matter, though, is that they all get to spout whatever they want to spout, and I don't have to listen to it. Same thing with Imus. I don't think he should have been fired for what he did. Certainly I would have, but my case is different.
Free speech is the order of the day, as far as I'm concerned. For example, anti-abortion protesters can say what they want, but as soon as they block the path of women going into the clinic, all bets are off. Anti-war protesters can make their point all they want, but as soon as they deface public or private property, all bets are off. Remember: I believe in free speech, not free whatever-the-hell-anyone-wants-to-do.
Posted by: Doc Washboard at April 15, 2007 10:04 PM (sps4Z)
35
CY, whenever a Lefty says something like that about Coulter or Malkin or someone of that ilk, you and your Righty posters are quick to say something on the order of, "A-ha! 'Progressives' show their true colors! Notice how they advocate violence against those they disagree with. The Right never stoops to that level."
I know it's your blog and all, but wrong in one direction is wrong in the other as well, and you've always struck me as one of the most evenhanded of the Righty bloggers. Do you condone this? Also: how about the sharp sticks and the rabid baboons? That shite could hurt!
Nonserious threats--those so comical that no one can take them seriously as a threat--aren't really threats, are they?
Obviously I don't agree with such commentary, and nor do most folks, but I don't think firing Rosie into the sun out of a cannon is anything other than someone venting.
And if they ever do load that cannon, I have no problem with Coulter also being a passenger.
Just so you know. ;-)
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at April 16, 2007 07:08 AM (9y6qg)
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Continuing to Cry Defeat
I must thank blog aggregator Memeorandum this morning for providing this link about the latest Charles Krauthammer column, which in turn, led to a Melanie Phillips blog entry highlighting key points of a Fouad Ajami editorial, Iraq in the Balance.
Among the subjects the Ajami essay touches upon are the long history of Sunni and Shia animosity, the failure of salvation for the Sunni insurgency, and the distrust of Iranian-backed Shia militias as Iraq enters what Ajami calls the "final, decisive phase":
There is a growing Shia unease with the Mahdi Army--and with the venality and incompetence of the Sadrists represented in the cabinet--and an increasing faith that the government and its instruments of order are the surer bet. The crackdown on the Mahdi Army that the new American commander, Gen. David Petraeus, has launched has the backing of the ruling Shia coalition. Iraqi police and army units have taken to the field against elements of the Mahdi army. In recent days, in the southern city of Diwaniyya, American and Iraqi forces have together battled the forces of Moqtada al-Sadr. To the extent that the Shia now see Iraq as their own country, their tolerance for mayhem and chaos has receded. Sadr may damn the American occupiers, but ordinary Shia men and women know that the liberty that came their way had been a gift of the Americans.
The young men of little education--earnest displaced villagers with the ways of the countryside showing through their features and dialect and shiny suits--who guarded me through Baghdad, spoke of old terrors, and of the joy and dignity of this new order. Children and nephews and younger brothers of men lost to the terror of the Baath, they are done with the old servitude. They behold the Americans keeping the peace of their troubled land with undisguised gratitude. It hasn't been always brilliant, this campaign waged in Iraq. But its mistakes can never smother its honor, and no apology for it is due the Arab autocrats who had averted their gaze from Iraq's long night of terror under the Baath.
...
One can never reconcile the beneficiaries of illegitimate, abnormal power to the end of their dominion. But this current re-alignment in Iraq carries with it a gift for the possible redemption of modern Islam among the Arabs. Hitherto Sunni Islam had taken its hegemony for granted and extremist strands within it have shown a refusal to accept "the other." Conversely, Shia history has been distorted by weakness and exclusion and by a concomitant abdication of responsibility.
A Shia-led state in Baghdad--with a strong Kurdish presence in it and a big niche for the Sunnis--can go a long way toward changing the region's terrible habits and expectations of authority and command. The Sunnis would still be hegemonic in the Arab councils of power beyond Iraq, but their monopoly would yield to the pluralism and complexity of that region.
"Watch your adjectives" is the admonition given American officers by Gen. Petraeus. In Baghdad, Americans and Iraqis alike know that this big endeavor has entered its final, decisive phase. Iraq has surprised and disappointed us before, but as they and we watch our adjectives there can be discerned the shape of a new country, a rough balance of forces commensurate with the demography of the place and with the outcome of a war that its erstwhile Sunni rulers had launched and lost. We made this history and should now make our peace with it.
Without any shred of a doubt, we are in the final, decisive phase of this war.
The "surge" of American troops into Iraq only half-begun as part of Commanding General David Petraeus' counter-insurgency doctrine will be the final major push of American forces into the Iraq theater. With the success of the surge, the stabilization of Iraq means that American forces should be able to start drawing down in victory. If the surge does not work, the American public will be able to elect a President in 2008 that will bring our troops home in defeat. Either way, the surge represents America's endgame, for better or worse.
Based upon the success of French Lt. Col. David Galula's counter-insurgency efforts in Algeria, General Petraeus literally wrote the book on American counter-insurgency,
Army Field Manual FM3-24 (PDF).
The Baghdad security plan, expanding to other parts of Iraq, comes at a time when al Qaeda has lost support in its former base of al Anbar province, where Sunni tribes once loyal to al Qaeda have turned against it. Within the past months, Sunni tribesmen that have recently joined the Iraqi police and military by the hundreds and thousands have fought pitched battles that al Qaeda has invariably lost, and the Sunni supporters of al Qaeda in Iraq are continuing to fracture, as noted as recently
as yesterday.
As Krauthammer states in his recent
op-ed with a nod to Ajami:
Fouad Ajami, just returned from his seventh trip to Iraq, is similarly guardedly optimistic and explains the change this way: Fundamentally, the Sunnis have lost the battle of Baghdad. They initiated it with an indiscriminate terror campaign they assumed would cow the Shiites, whom they view with contempt as congenitally quiescent, lower-class former subjects. They learned otherwise after the Samarra bombing in February 2006 kindled Shiite fury -- a savage militia campaign of kidnapping, indiscriminate murder and ethnic cleansing that has made Baghdad a largely Shiite city.
Petraeus is trying now to complete the defeat of the Sunni insurgents in Baghdad -- without the barbarism of the Shiite militias, whom his forces are simultaneously pursuing and suppressing.
Meanwhile, John Wixted points out that the media-declared "civil war" in Iraq is
not a civil war:
Again, these Sunni insurgent groups are unhappy (not happy) with al Qaeda for indiscriminately slaughtering Shiite civilians in Iraq. How does that fit into the "civil war" schema? Answer: it doesn't. Think about the Tal Afar bombing again, the one that you thought was just part of the cycle of violence in a escalating civil war between Shiite militias and Sunni insurgents. There is just one tiny little problem with that superficial analysis: the major Sunni insurgent groups are extremely displeased with bombings like that. That being the case, you should now be able to appreciate the fact that, contrary to the standard analysis, the Tal Afar bombing (like many similar bombings) was not carried out by Sunni insurgents in their civil war against Shiites. Instead, those bombings represent al Qaeda in action. They are, in effect, counterattacks in our war on terror, not retaliatory strikes in a civil war.
The Sunni insurgents have come to realize that al Qaeda is not helping them in their fight against American troops. Instead, al Qaeda is trying to provoke a civil war, which benefits al Qaeda alone. That is, al Qaeda is trying to get Muqtada al Sadr's Mahdi Army to once again start executing Sunnis in Baghdad. That's why the Sunni insurgents are not happy. They have no interest in a civil war because it does not benefit them in any way. They want al Qaeda to help fight the Americans, and that's what al Qaeda was doing for a while. It's what George Bush wanted al Qaeda to do as well (at least I suspect as much). But al Qaeda came up with a fiendish alternative plan, and it has been amazingly effective up until now. Predictably, in response to al Qaeda's repeated atrocities against Shiite civilians, most Americans and all Democratic politicians think they are watching a civil war unfold in Iraq and have become demoralized as a result (just as al Qaeda knew they would -- it's always that way with the weak-willed America).
[snip]
All of this should also serve to update your thinking about Muqtada al Sadr's Mahdi Army, which, contrary to what you might believe, was killing Sunnis in Baghdad in an effort to stop those atrocities being carried out by al Qaeda against Shiite civilians. But now the Mahdi Army is cooperating with the troop surge, so those executions have come way down. Perhaps Muqtada realized that he was just playing into al Qaeda's hands (and the truth is, he was).
Unfortunately, last month, al Qaeda successfully slaughtered many hundreds of Shiites, and that increase in violence offset the decrease in violence by the Mahdi Army, so overall civilian casualties in Iraq remained essentially unchanged. However, the fact that the Sunni insurgency is beginning to resist al Qaeda, and the fact that they have even implored Osama bin Laden to call off attacks against civilians by al Qaeda in Iraq could be highly significant. If the Mahdi Army continues to cooperate (and all signs suggest that they will despite the Tal Afar bombing) and if al Qaeda can be induced to stop slaughtering civilians, then the troop surge will be seen as a resounding success because civilian casualties will come way down.
In short, Sunni tribes former aligned with al Qaeda are turning against them and joining the Iraqi military and police forces by the thousands. At the same time, Shia militias are staying their hands (for the most part), while the more militant offshoots of the Madhi Army are being either rounded up or
shot down as are their Sunni opposites.
All in all, there is a picture beginning to emerge that shows the more radical and divisive elements of both the Sunni and Shia sects are slowly but steadily being whittled away. Sunnis and Shias formerly loyal to al Qaeda or al Sadr quietly melt away, inform on their former allies, or actively join forces with the Coalition and Iraqi government. These extremists that now only exist to cause terror in a fractured nation tiring of war, are losing.
Aligned against these growing signs of progress, we once again encounter our ever-present enemy...
Democrats:
A memo from a top House Democrat says party leaders must not yield to White House pressure on Iraq and should cast President Bush as increasingly detached from public opinion.
Bush has said he will not negotiate with Democrats on legislation that would finance the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan through September if it sets an end date for the Iraq war. Holding only a narrow majority in Congress, Democrats do not have enough votes to override the president's veto.
In a memo to party leaders, Rep. Rahm Emanuel says that as long as Democrats continue to ratchet up the pressure on Bush, the president loses ground.
Like many Democrats, Emanuel shows that in his eyes, the real enemy in the War on Terror (a name, I'd add, Democrats are cravenly
trying to change) is American President George W. Bush, not al Qaeda terrorists or Shia militiamen.
The gathering signs of progress in Iraq means that the window of opportunity to claim a "victory" for Democrats—a headlong retreat and possible genocide that could result from a too quick withdrawal before Iraq is stabilized, which they would then attempt to pin on Bush—is closing.
If signs of progress continue to cautiously crop up in Iraq, the media-determined and Democrat-supported narrative of defeat may slowly begin to fall away, which is the worst possible situation for Democrats.
Should the surge continue to prove effective and Iraqis continue towards a path towards a reconciliation and a fair division of assets among the sects, it is not hard to see that public opinion will begin to turn against the liberal Democrat leadership, who have done all that is within their power to lose the war. Nobody likes someone who cheers against the home team, especially if the home team(s) rallies to win.
Only time will tell if the "rally" in Iraq is successful, but that is a chance Democrat leaders such as Emanuel, Reid, and Pelosi aren't will to take, and why they endeavor to lose Iraq by forfeit.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
12:02 PM
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1
CY:"The gathering signs of progress in Iraq ..."
... "Bomb Attack on Iraq's Parliament Building ... a stunning assault in the heart of the heavily fortified, U.S.-protected Green Zone" (Foxnews, Thursday, April 12, 2007 )
"A homicide truck bomb exploded on a major bridge in Baghdad early Thursday, collapsing the steel structure and sending cars toppling into the Tigris River below ..." (Foxnews, Thursday, April 12, 2007 )
A further example for the MSM-conspiracy against the US-strategy in Iraq?
Posted by: he at April 13, 2007 01:19 PM (qQGvX)
2
How many attacks in 4 years have there been inside the green zone?
1? 2? They got lucky, and only took one life. By objective strategic standards, no big deal.
Tragic, yes. A sign of a burgeoning, rampaging insurgency? No. A sign that the US has failed, and has no chance of acheiving its objectives in Iraq? No.
Unless thats what your hoping for.
Posted by: TMF at April 13, 2007 02:01 PM (+BgNZ)
3
A couple of other indicators worth mention:
First is the narrowing of focus by al Qaida in Iraq. Initially they focused on the MNF but that failed to gain the support of many Iraqis as the elections demonstrated. So they turned their attention to the Shiia. The idea being to intimidate the Shiites into turning their backs on the MNF in order to make the violence stop. This didn't work either as there was a severe backlash against the Sunnis for it. This resulted in calls from Sunnis for AQI to stop attacking civilians. That resulted in AQI narrowing their focus even further to "wayward" Sunnis. Again, they were going to intimidate the Sunnis into line in order to make the violence stop. But the Sunnis discovered they had an ally in the MNF and Iraq government. So instead of getting the Sunnis in line, they effectively pushed the Sunnis into the arms of the Iraqi government. So where at first it was a Muslim insurgency against "infidel" occupiers (broad focus), it then became Sunnis against Shiites (narrower focus), and has now become radical Sunnis against more moderate Sunnis (yet narrower focus) and the result is a splitting off from AQI of many of the groups ("franchises")under its umbrella.
The second development is to notice that al Qaida has now restarted operations in areas outside Iraq. We saw operations in Morocco and Algeria this week. That signals that al Qaida isn't sending their best and brightest to Iraq anymore. A year or so ago, the people who would be performing terrorist operations in those countries would have been sent to Iraq. Now they are staying home to fight.
I am seeing nothing but positive indications for us and dire indications for al Qaida.
Posted by: crosspatch at April 13, 2007 03:15 PM (y2kMG)
4
Holy Toledo! A surprisingly positive article out of CNN!
http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/meast/04/12/btsc.phillips.baghdad/index.html
Posted by: crosspatch at April 13, 2007 03:40 PM (y2kMG)
5
"Aligned against these growing signs of progress, we once again encounter our ever-present enemy... Democrats...."
I'll bet you any amount of money you can round up that you will be repeating this divel one Friedman Unit from today. The real enemy is Repbulicans. They are delusional. They hate America.
Posted by: TraitorHater at April 13, 2007 09:00 PM (N3gnV)
6
Remind me again which side of the aisle was comparing our troops to Nazis, TH. We're just handing you the rope until the country allows us to hang you with it. Aux la lanternes!
Posted by: SDN at April 13, 2007 10:12 PM (CNYKS)
7
I'll bet you any amount of money you can round up
Petraeus is going to ensure the dems will be out of power again in 08' and rendered ineffective as enemies anymore.
Posted by: Purple Avenger at April 14, 2007 06:59 AM (UWdQL)
8
Just wanted to comment on the "green zone" attack. My FIRST thought was that the U.S. Capitol is a fairly secure place yet there was an attack there. What does that say about our country? That's it's a complete failure and it's time to get out?
All it shows is that a determined person or group can, eventually, breach any security.
Posted by: DoorHold at April 14, 2007 10:59 AM (WD3Yg)
9
Purple avenger is definitely existing in his own seperate reality.
Things are not going well in Iraq the American people know that, the policies of Bush have been all failures. A liberal (why is liberal only good over there) democracy flowering in Iraq ???
Posted by: John Ryan at April 14, 2007 04:18 PM (TcoRJ)
10
When the Imus affair can basically knock the Iraq off the headlines for a week, you know that things are getting better. The MSM will do anything it can to hide this fact.
Posted by: southdakotaboy at April 14, 2007 07:46 PM (WrPG5)
11
A liberal (why is liberal only good over there) democracy flowering in Iraq?
How long did it take to fight the revolution and ratify the US constitution again John?
Seems to me the Iraqis are WAY ahead of schedule. Of course your kind would have had Washington surrender rather than tough out the winter at Valley Forge. Your kind don't do difficult.
Posted by: Purple Avenger at April 14, 2007 07:46 PM (UWdQL)
12
"A gunman in a wheelchair opened fire on a crowded street in San Francisco's Tenderloin district early Saturday, killing a woman and wounding four other people, police said."
Yet another example that socialism in San Francisco is a failure....heh
Posted by: ray robison at April 15, 2007 09:37 AM (aW8TG)
13
"Without any shred of a doubt, we are in the final, decisive phase of this war."
Without any shred of doubt, this prediction will come back to haunt you in a year when the war in Iraq is once again damaging Republican election campaigns.
I don't see how you infer from the excerpts you posted that "the more radical and divisive elements of both the Sunni and Shia sects are slowly but steadily being whittled away" or that Sunni tribes are joining Iraq's police and military forces "by the thousands."
According to the Washington Post:
"Insurgent leaders, in interviews in person or by telephone, offered different explanations for their split. Many said their link to the al-Qaeda groups was tainting their image as a nationalist resistance force. Others said they no longer wanted to be tools of the foreign fighters who lead al-Qaeda. Their war, they insist, is against only the U.S. forces, to pressure them to depart Iraq."
"We do not want to kill the Sunni people nor displace the innocent Shia, and what the al-Qaeda organization is doing is contradictory to Islam," said Abu Marwan, a religious leader of the Mujaheddin Army in Baqubah, northeast of Baghdad. "We will strike whoever violates the boundaries of God, whether al-Qaeda or the Americans." (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/04/13/AR2007041300294_pf.html)
This suggests that a split between insurgents and al-Qaida has more to do with shutting foreigners out of the insurgency and improving its effectiveness than a fundamental shift to support for the American forces. At any rate, it is not clear how the surge has promoted this.
You may also want to read this article in the Guardian: http://commentisfree.guardian.co.uk/marc_lynch/2007/04/insurgents_against_alqaeda.html
Ironically, as Lynch argues, this split might make it easier for the US to withdraw (by uniting Iraqi factions) even as it makes it more dangerous for us to stay.
There is no evidence to suggest that Iraq would become any more chaotic upon a US withdrawal than it already is, and some to suggest that it might acutally improve once our provocative presence is ended. Anyway, this thing won't be solved by sending more 19-year-old Americans to Iraq and further eroding the sovereignty of the Iraqi state. As a prominent American said:
"Any student of history recognises there is no military solution to a problem like that in Iraq. A political resolution of various differences ... of various senses that people do not have a stake in the successes of Iraq ... is crucial."
The speaker? General Petraeus.
Posted by: R. Stanton Scott at April 15, 2007 04:00 PM (0sTNI)
14
"There is no evidence to suggest that Iraq would become any more chaotic upon a US withdrawal than it already is, and some to suggest that it might acutally improve once our provocative presence is ended."
Posted by R. Stanton Scott at April 15, 2007 04:00 PM
Congratulations! You just parroted John kerry nearly word for word in his argument to pull US troops from Vietnam which caused a full scale regional destabilization that killed MILLIONS! Nice....
Posted by: ray robison at April 15, 2007 06:29 PM (aW8TG)
15
ray,
I've looked high and low for information on a bloodbath in S. Vietname after 1975 and have yet to find it. Certainly, you can fold in the Khmer Rouge killings into that number to get to millions dead, but that's a specious argument at best and dishonest at worst.
Here's what I did find: Jacqueline Desbarats and Karl D. Jackson set out to prove that a bloodbath in South Vietnam did occur, in spite of media reports to the contrary. By conservative estimate they said that 65,000 people had been killed from 1975 to 1982.
Their work was refuted by Gareth Porter and James Roberts in 1988 in their article, “Creating a Bloodbath by Statistical Manipulation,” in Pacific Affairs.
In an essay published in 1990, Desbarats claimed “possibly more than 100,000 Vietnamese people” had been executed but didn't answer any of the problems brought up by Porter and Roberts’s critique of her methodology.
So, even if you read and believe the scholars who claim a bloodbath did occur, their numbers have never been more than 100,000+. Tragic yes, but still nowhere near your millions.
You can claim that our withdrawal from Vietnam caused the rise of Pol Pot and the subsequent mass murder, but I could make an equally persuasive case that Nixon's incursion into Cambodia is what destabilized that country, and both of our arguments would be irrelevant to what we have at hand in Iraq.
As always, I'm prepared to be educated. I don't know everything (even though my wife will tell you I think I do), and I invite links to credible sources for your numbers.
Posted by: David Terrenoire at April 16, 2007 12:09 PM (kxecL)
16
DT, the rise of the khmer rouge was a direct result of the power vacuum left when the US retreated
Here's more on the subject
http://www.411mania.com/politics/columns/47625
"During this period of Nixon's phased redeployment, the Khmer Rouge Communists took over the government of Cambodia leading to the extermination of roughly 25% of that countries population, or two million people. This horrendous slaughter on the order of magnitude of the Jewish holocaust might have been avoided if Nixon had not signaled American intentions to wash our hands of the region. And that wasn't even in Vietnam.
After Nixon withdrew all ground forces from Vietnam, the North Vietnamese broke their peace agreements (surprise, surprise) and took over Southern Vietnam that we had abandoned. Of course the Communist atrocities continued there and hundreds of thousands died. It was then that the North Vietnamese implemented the infamous "re-education" camps where the primary focus was to torture civilians into compliance.
Khmer Rouge forces invaded Vietnam, Vietnamese forces invaded Cambodia. The Chinese who supported Vietnam invaded Vietnam in retaliation for the invasion of Cambodia which was in retaliation for the Khmer Rouge invasion of Vietnam. How many more hundreds of thousands of people died because we decided the cost was too high and the war was immoral?"
There are people who still deny the jewish holocaust. I dont care if communist sympathizers deny the mass murder committed by the NV in SV. And yes, destabilization of neighboring countries that kills millions is a part of the equation an honest thinker must face. But feel free to ignore it.
Posted by: Ray Robison at April 16, 2007 12:57 PM (CdK5b)
17
I am constantly fascinated by those who find the killing of thousands of innocent people horrible and tragic--until the United States starts doing the killing.
"Destabilization that killed millions" in Southeast Asia resulted not from our withdrawal from Viet Nam, but from our presence there. This included, as Mr. Terrenoire points out, our incursion into Cambodia, as well as bombing civilian population centers, mining harbors to interdict trade, destruction of rural villages and agricultural capacity, execution of women and children, and support for an unpopular authoritarian government in South Viet Nam, itself as odious as the Communists we sought to "protect" them from.
Indeed, had we permitted the French colonial mission there to fail, instead of adopting it as our own, Ho Chi Minh may actually have established a government based on our own Declaration of Independence and Constitution--as was his stated goal during the 50s. As President Bush himself points out, we can know the intent of our enemies by listening to their own words.
But as Mr. Terrenoire also points out, Southeast Asian history has little to do with what we face today in Iraq (exept insofar as that experience shaped our civilian and military institutional biases). Southeast Asia was about colonialism and how local populations used communist rhetoric and assistance to end occupation of their land by Western powers.
Our invasion of Iraq today is arguably a resurgent colonialism--great powers safeguarding natural resources necessary for their industrial productivity. But to the extent it really is about fighting terrorism, it happened because our government decided that criminal terrorist gangs could be destroyed by attacking associated states, and then associating states with the gangs. This does not surprise international relations theorists, who expect states to see problems in terms of the behavior of other states.
But it is unlikely to solve the real problem and stop the commission of the crime of terrorism. Internationally or domestically, crime will always exist, and the best solutions are to be found first in addressing the conditions that foster it and then developing the institutional structures needed to capture and punish those who continue to live outside the law.
Indeed, we only legitimize groups like al-Q'aida by declaring war on them and elevating them to the status of an organization that can effectively challenge a powerful state. This also leads us to apply a type of force to the problem that is least effective. Instead of permitting bin Laden the glory of standing up to the US, we should be shaming and demonizing him as a common killer of women and children.
The best way for the US to spread democracy and American values in the world is to develop organizational infrastructures that institutionalize small-l liberalism: open trade, individual rights, capitalism, and participatory, transparent government. This is most easily accomplished by talking to people, not shooting them.
Posted by: R. Stanton Scott at April 16, 2007 01:40 PM (8tSrK)
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And yes, destabilization of neighboring countries that kills millions is a part of the equation an honest thinker must face. But feel free to ignore it.
Ray,
On the contrary, I wasn't ignoring it, I just don't buy the simplistic causality that our withdrawal caused the killing fields. And any article that contains a line like this:
But if you are a liberal who would not deign to be caught caring about American security or influence in the world (other than to point out how immoral that is), how about the humanistic component? How about the utter devastation left in South East Asia?
This loses all credibility. First, I'm a liberal and will happily display my security bona fides any time anywhere. No, this article is partisan BS, authored by a guy named Ray Robinson, and as you quote heavily from your own article to defend your own positions I feel obligated to point out that no where do you prove your point. You makes the assertion that the withdrawal caused the killing fields, but assertions are like opinions and we all know about those.
And I asked for a link to a number of South Vietnamese killed in what you claim was the resultant bloodbath. The only number I could find was 100K, and that from someone wanting to prove your theory, against all evidence to the contrary, that a bloodbath did occur.
I'm well aware of the re-education camps. I make no case for Hanoi or the takeover just as I would have a hard time defending the South Vietnamese regime. You and I can debate that war, and I'd be happy to engage over drinks, believe me, but I doubt if here it would produce anything more than long-winded, pointless posts.
But I did find this line in your article interesting:
So what was the cost of "phased redeployment" versus a strategy of victory? Well for one the US military was demoralized for decades.
Again, this is a complicated issue, but I can assure you that people in the military were seriously demoralized by 1970, years before our withdrawal. I know. I was one of them and I was RA.
So, I'm not trying to whitewash the tragedy that followed South Vietnam's fall, but what you've opened up here is a far more complicated argument. Finding a direct link from the withdrawal to the subsequent wars in SE Asia is simplistic and ignores a millennium of regional history.
To use this as reason to remain in Iraq is, I believe, a rather thin attempt to put this fiasco into a moral light and it sounds a bit desperate now, just as it sounded in 1971 when Nixon tried it.
Posted by: David Terrenoire at April 16, 2007 01:45 PM (kxecL)
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Screening Outside the Wire
The Washington State University Young Republicans screened Outside the Wire by JD Johannes, a former Marine, who joined the Marinesbecause:
... JD Johannes did not study hard or take his secondary education seriously, because he came from a rural, midwestern town, and because he had no other opportunities, Johannes was easily conned into joining the Marines by a high-pressure salesman in Dress Blues.
Just like U.S. Senator John Kerry said, JD Johannes got stuck in Iraq.
A synopsis of the screening is recounted on
palousitics, including some barbed comments at Democrats who tried to upstage both the movie and the Iraq war veterans that were to address the audience and take questions after the film.
The young democrats expressed vivid interest in expressing opinions and produce questions to us, the WSU College Republicans. Dan Ryder and I articulated to the young democrats that no such exchange would take place in any shape or form. I was unequivocal in expressing that this documentary should leave you to derive your own opinions of the troops/war and that the WSU College Republicans did not feel qualified in hosting questions. After all, we did not serve in Iraq.
The young democrats "staged" a walkout upon hearing our truthful and legitimate response. This was a display upon epic proportions of the infantile demeanor of such a group that preaches the freedom of expression, ideas, opinions, etc. Their actions were pusillanimous in nature and a flat out slap in the face to the attendees, our organization, our great country and more acutely speaking, the Veterans of our brave service men and women present. They are a sickening disgrace. A classic display of uncouth trash.
The quote of the day, however, goes to one of the Iraq War veterans during a Q&A session after the screening to a question that was never asked.
One question that never came up was "can you support the troops if you don’t support the war?" After the question and answer session ended a Vet replied, "Absolutely not, how can you support someone if you don't support what he or she is doing?"
I've wondered about that same question myself, and have yet to hear what I would consider a reasonable answer.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
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1
Can you support the troops, but not support the war? I think you can.
Supporting the troops, I believe, means respecting them as individuals; that is, respecting their patriotism, courage, and willingness to serve in harm's way. Most of us don't have that kind of grit, and those who do deserve our respect and admiration.... and our support.
On the other hand, supporting the war means supporting a relatively small handful of politicians who make policy. Those politicians have to earn that support by being wise, prudent, and correct in their decisions. I don't believe they are allowed to hide behind the troops in harm's way, and demand that our support for those troops must translate as support for the policies of Washington.
Let's be frank: everything I've read about Iraq tells me that this country has fielded an incredibly professional military organizations (guts, brains, high morale), just as everything I've read tells me that President Bush is a walking, talking disaster as a war leader.
So, yeah, I feel like I support the troops (I know that I respect them greatly), but, at the same time, I believe they were put into harm's way and asked to do the impossible by an unread man of limited integrity and ability.
It's a dilemma.
But it's not a dilemma unique to this situation. I'm certain that conservatives supported our troops in Vietnam even as they hated the no-win, hand-tied-behind-the-back war policies of LBJ. Win the war, or get out, seemed to be the conservative mantra back in those days. Could we argue that they were hurting troop morale and emboldening the enemy?
Oh, and I'm reminded of those conservatives shouting at Bush I to go all the way to Baghdad during Operation Desert Storm. I'm sure they supported the troops, even as they decried the policies those troops were enacting.
Posted by: i'mjustsayin' at April 13, 2007 11:20 AM (5ymET)
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CY:
I've wondered about that same question myself, and have yet to hear what I would consider a reasonable answer.
The Iraqis want us to leave. 72% of soldiers think we should leave within a year.
"Support the troops" is a catchphrase you employ to stifle debate. It's the best you've got because the facts overwhelmingly paint you as dead enders.
You echoed disinformation recently about the recent Najaf rally. See here.
Posted by: Lex Steele at April 13, 2007 11:33 AM (0bhUe)
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So what's the only solution in both Vietnam and Iraq (both times) from the Left? Cut and run. Don't finish the job.
And what were the results. Genocide in Cambodia and Vietnam. Genocide of the Marsh Arabs in 91. Any bets that the third cut and run will result differently?
What's that definition of insanity again? something about doing the same things and expecting different results?
Posted by: SDN at April 13, 2007 10:25 PM (CNYKS)
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These comments are legitimate arguments, albeit that they are from the perspective of losing or that we could never have won. Look, the glass is half empty while it is half full. Only time will tell. I only know that from all the soldiers I have heard from (and that is many, as well as the families of soldiers currently serving and of those who have made the ultimate sacrifice), aside from the few that the mainstream propaganda news outlets parade out there every time they find one, this war is no loss at all. All of a sudden, everyone is a general and can determine how long it takes for people to go from oppression from a murderous regime to being able to participate in their own government. I am with the coalition, the Iraqis and their future. I do not wish that we never went there and that Saddam was still in power. There may be some Iraqis that resent or hate us, and there can be many reasons for that, but we have free Americans right here that hate this country and everything about it. We have Americans right here that hope for our defeat and root for our enemies. We have an entire political party and its supporting mainstream media that undermines our national Security, our country, our President, every day. Of course, there are many here that do not see the cause for our military success in Iraq and for the Iraqi people. These are the same people that did not and/or would not, or don't and/or wouldn't care either way about the ethnic cleansing that took place in Viet Nam and would take place in Iraq if we just picked up and walked away. They would rather support the failure of a political adversary (the President, the Republican party, an alternative ideology) than the future of a free people. And they call themselves "liberals" or, better yet, "progressives".
Posted by: DJ at April 13, 2007 11:24 PM (n17DP)
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Part of the problem about devise tactics is that they work best only when you are in the majority. Now that only 33% support Bush when you say all Democrats are supporters of terror it only serves to encourage the jihadists. "Yeah I read that 70% of the Americans are supporting us" NOT!!!
Posted by: John Ryan at April 14, 2007 04:23 PM (TcoRJ)
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Regarding Vietnam, please bear in mind that the U.S. poured billions of dollars and tens of thousands of American lives into propping up the regime in Saigon. Unfortunately, for all that support, Saigon remained corrupt, and, worse, ineffecient, and its army, by and large, lacked the skill and ferocity of the VC and NVA.
In other words, we only Cut and Run when we realized that Saigon had squandered everything provided by the U.S. Also please consider that the highly-effective U.S. military had wreaked tremendous damage in South Vietnam, and accumulated huge body counts of VC and NVA. In the end, none of that mattered.
What happened in South Vietnam after the U.S. withdrew was bad enough, but it was far less bloody than Washington had predicted, and certainly did not rise to the level of genocide, as claimed above. Yes, there was genocide in Cambodia.... but how exactly was the U.S. supposed to stop the Khmer Rouge? Endless war in Southeast Asia? To what end? And how would such an endless war benifit the United States?
There's a lot of bad guys and bad places in the Third World. Why not endless war throughout the Third World? The U.S. cannot afford to be the world's policeman, and does not have the stomach for the job, anyway.
I'm rambling......
Posted by: i'mjustsayin' at April 15, 2007 04:47 PM (5ymET)
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i'mjustsayin' said: "What happened in South Vietnam after the U.S. withdrew was bad enough, but it was far less bloody than Washington had predicted, and certainly did not rise to the level of genocide..."
So how bloody did Washington predict it would be if roughly 2.5 million South Vietnamese slaughtered didn't reach the level [of genocide]? According to your way of thinking the United States should never have destroyed the Nazis either.
And when you say, "The U.S. cannot afford to be the world's policeman, and does not have the stomach for the job, anyway." All I can say is speak for yourself. You obviously don't have the stomach for it.
"The tree of Liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."
-- Thomas Jefferson
Posted by: DJ at April 15, 2007 10:41 PM (n17DP)
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They would rather support the failure of a political adversary (the President, the Republican party, an alternative ideology) than the future of a free people. And they call themselves "liberals" or, better yet, "progressives".
I consider myself a liberal, but I'm not sure it means the same thing as you think it means.
Peope I know who think this war is a futile effort include military, retired military, active intelligence, former federal law enforcement and a whole bunch of average citizens just like you and me. Not a one of them hope or want Bush to fail. Predicting failure and then pointing out when your worst predictions come true is not a thing that gives me comfort.
As for not supporting the future of a free people, that's something the people themselves have to choose. It's not a gift we can pass along and then suddenly animosities that go back to the fifth century will vanish like a fart in a sea breeze. That's not going to happen.
I've stated in other threads the disaster I predict it will be if we pull out, but I've also said that I think this surge is far too little and far too late.
If we were serious about fighting this war, and this is just me, I'd put another 400K troops in there, create safe training places for the Iraqi military and police, draft a boatload of young American men and raise taxes to pay for it.
But that's not going to happen. And that means we're not serious about fighting this war. So if we're not serious, how can you ask your brother to pay with his limbs or even his life?
Vietnam? The VC and NVA weren't going anywhere and they'd demonstrated by kicking Japanese butt and French butt that they were willing to do whatever was necessary for as long as it took. The American people, for good reason, weren't willing.
My father was a staunch supporter of that war until he had two sons in uniform. He'd lost his brother and countless friends in one war, a good war, a war worth his sacrifice, and he would have and did send his boys off to serve. But when the reality of that homebound box hit home, he started asking why. It didn't make him a cut and run American. It didn't take away his patriotism and sacrifice. It made him question why and the answer he got was not one he wanted to hear, not worth his potential loss.
No American, left or right, wants our president to fail. Because if he does, it means we sacrifice our fathers, brothers and sons for a mistake.
I'm a liberal, but I take a back seat to no one when I say I love this country.
But I mistrust this government. And that's a whole different thing.
Posted by: David Terrenoire at April 15, 2007 10:54 PM (tk0b2)
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DJ, the 2.5 million victims you cite were murdered by the Khmer Rouge. You are conflating, for obvious reasons, the genocide in Cambodia with what happened in South Vietnam after the communists prevailed in 1975.
Oh, your crack about who has the stomach for endless war and who doesn't was a bit ridiculous. So, again: how many years and how many lives should the U.S. have invested in an optional war like the one we fought in Vietnam?
Incidentally, David Terrenoire is the best thing about this website.
Posted by: i'mjustsayin' at April 16, 2007 01:03 AM (5ymET)
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Not Quite Innocent
Terry Moran is sure to be creamed for this contrarian opinion, but I tend to think he's right:
So as we rightly cover the vindication of these young men and focus on the genuine ordeal they have endured, let us also remember a few other things:
They were part of a team that collected $800 to purchase the time of two strippers.
Their team specifically requested at least one white stripper.
During the incident, racial epithets were hurled at the strippers.
Colin Finnerty was charged with assault in Washington, DC, in 2005.
The "Duke Three" are without a doubt innocent of the crimes of rape and kidnapping levied by a mentally-disturbed stripper and a dishonest district attorney, but they are not
innocents. There is a huge distinction between being innocent of a crime, and some of the comments made during the defense lawyer's press conference that painted these three young men as almost being ripe for canonization.
They are part of a group that deserves criticism for their actions. These three young men are not criminals, but nor should they or their teammates be made into heroes. We should be able to redress the travesty of justice committed against them without making them into idols or figureheads of purity, when they clearly are not.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
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Hmmmm.... Not so sure I agree. While it's true they are not pictures of purity, there aren't many young men in college who are. Moran's piece comes across as snarky and seems to try and justify the treatment they received because they're white and privileged. Podhoretz does a good job of taking apart the Moran post at The Corner, here:
http://corner.nationalreview.com/post/?q=ZTEzMGY2YmVkNzJkOWE4OGExNWUxMzgxZmRiMjIyMjk=
Posted by: mindnumbrobot at April 13, 2007 11:30 AM (d5LvD)
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Main point to entire story is not students’ behavior. Definitely they are not heroes, idols or saints. They did not choose get into a spot light and never claimed sainthood. Main point of the story is that our legal system is corrupt from street cop and up. Unless there is no price to pay for those who falsely accuse and even worse covered and/or fabricate evidence we are all in a grave danger. I have been there. I know. I wish no one would have to learn that “the students way”.
Posted by: Martimon at April 13, 2007 11:36 AM (hjX2J)
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Whoa, wait just a minute. There's no evidence that these three guys hired the strippers, or that they were in any way involved in name-calling or whatever else led up to the false accusations. In fact, there's solid evidence that at least one of them (Seligmann) and perhaps another (Finnerty) left the party before the strippers got down to business. It's certainly reasonable to assume, based on those actions, that they did not want any part of the strip show, thought it was inappropriate and took steps to remove themselves from the situation. That's behavior we should be applauding, not, as Moran does, ignore it and continue to smear these guys as sleaze bags.
To leap from being at a college party to being charged with forcible rape and sodomy--and kidnapping!--isn't just unfair, it's insane! These guys did NOTHING illegal (since there's no evidence that I'm aware of that they were drinking alcohol, even if it was at the party). Even if one of these three was guilty of underage drinking, to say that this action makes it okay to in essence say that they got what they deserved is grotesque.
Posted by: Martian Man at April 13, 2007 11:42 AM (8VScv)
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I'm missing something ... What, exactly, does their prior behavior have to do with the case against them? They could be misogynist racists of the worst kind and that would have WHAT to do with being dragged through the courts on demonstrably false charges?
Posted by: DoorHold at April 13, 2007 12:02 PM (Ca5qr)
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Perhaps I should clarify that I'm not agreeing with all of Moran's blog entry (I most certainly don't). I just agree with the sentiment that they are innocent, but not innocents.
As I listened to the lawyer's press conference (local radio here) after the case was dropped, the lawyers swung the pendulum too far in the other direction, attempting to paint the lacrosse players as near saints.
I don't think these guys are bad kids (well, Finnerty in questionable), but absolutely normal college kids.
Trying to portray them as wronged saints or superbly moral young men as the lawyers laid it on thick during their press conference is just as stupid as trying to pin on them a crime they didn't commit.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at April 13, 2007 12:37 PM (9y6qg)
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As pointed out above, two of the defendants cleared out as soon as they had a chance. It's been known about Reade Seligman for a while. Colin Finnerty's just spoken for the first time on his whereabouts that night
http://www.newsday.com/news/printedition/longisland/ny-liduke135169193apr13,0,5792628.story?coll=ny-linews-print
Dave Evans lived in the house.
As far as Colin Finnerty's DC incident, the judge set aside the verdict some time ago saying, in effect, "What the hell was I thinking?"
The lacrosse team made a dumb decision one night. They let the two liars into the house. Young people can make dumb mistakes from time to time. Any parent knows this. They've been telling the truth ever since.
Compare this to the long-term behavior of the so-called adults
1) A 27-yo woman lies about rape and continues to lie for a year and is lying about it to this day. She could have stopped any time.
2) The DA, a sworn officer of the court, uses this lie to exploit a racial divide for his own personal gain. He knew it was a lie and could have stopped any time. Any one of his ADAs or the DPD could have blown the whistle on the lie at any time. They were silent and are still silent.
3) Half the voting citizens of Durham buy into the lie even after it was clear the DA was trying to railroad three men. They had plenty of time and information to consider their vote.
4) A university faculty that rushed to start an on-campus cultural war using the lie as an exemplar aided and abetted by a (best you can say about him) passive university president. They are still unwilling to take responsibility for their acting on the lie. In fact, most of them continue to act as if the lie is true. "Fake but true".
5) A press, with a very few notable exceptions, that so bought into the lie that they promoted the lie as the truth. What happened to a skeptical treatment of the claims of the government?
Compared to the cold, calculating, craven, cowardly and malicious people who used one dumb mistake for their own self gain, the members of the lacrosse team ARE innocents. But after the behavior of the supposedly responsible people around them they are innocents no more.
With all that, anyone continuing to jump up and down on the remains of last year's lacrosse team has climbed into the same sinking ship with Nifong and the rest. The sharks are circling. Enjoy your swim.
Posted by: Locomotive Breath at April 13, 2007 01:45 PM (W7Snj)
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Locomotive Breath, perhaps you need to realize that the "with us or or against" construct you're advocating is precisely the flip-side of the same overheated, illogical rush to judgement of those you claim to revile.
As I said in the main post, in the comment directly above yours, and now this one, these young men made some mistakes. Trying to portray them as wronged saints or superbly moral young (as theri lawyers have done) men is a lie as well. They're just normal college guys.
Period.
Trying to say that those of us who aren't lining up to sing their praises as being in the same league as the strippers, Nifong, the press, and the "Gang of 88" is disingenuous, and more than a little craven.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at April 13, 2007 02:11 PM (9y6qg)
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Confederate Yankee, I think that you've gotten yourself off on the wrong track. You say you wanted simply to say that Reade, Dave and Collin were "just normal college guys" instead of saints. Why didn't you simply say that if that was your intent? I watched the entire news conference of both Roy Cooper and later that of the attorneys of the three young Duke students who were exonerated. I recall not one statement implying that the three were saints or angels. I do recall statements that they were decent, hard working and yes normal young men. And that's about as good as it gets. Do you know any saints or angels? I don't. You took a gratuitous shot at their characters? What would make you want to do such a thing. I think that your words have said more about YOUR character than about the character of these three young men.
Posted by: Whippersnapper at April 13, 2007 02:33 PM (7igc6)
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Just wow.
I said they were "just normal college guys," said that they should not be made into heroes, and said that we should "be able to redress the travesty of justice committed against them without making them into idols or figureheads of purity."
To you, saying such obvious truths is "gratuitous shot at their characters"?
I hope you've got a good grip on that saddle; I'd hate for you to fall off such a high horse.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at April 13, 2007 02:40 PM (9y6qg)
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"Locomotive Breath, perhaps you need to realize that the "with us or or against" construct you're advocating is precisely the flip-side of the same overheated, illogical rush to judgement of those you claim to revile."
Not so. In contrast to a year ago, the facts are now known and the balance can be weighed in its proper perspective.
The lacrosse team immediately admitted what they did do and have apologized for it profusely for over a year. They also told the truth about what they did NOT do and were called liers and far worse.
Ever had your photo on the cover of Newsweek with the word RAPE next to it?
Ever had a "wanted poster" spread all over your campus and had people hunt you down and harass you on a daily basis and call you a liar?
Ever had anyone stand outside your house banging pots and holding a banner that says "Castrate"?
Ever had a portion of the faculty of your school calling you a bigot and liar and leading the witch hunt?
Ever had the administration of your school stand by and do nothing while that was going on and meanwhile the President launches into long soliloquies about the seriousness of the crime with which you're charged?
Ever had the administration, initially, at least, tell the New Black Panther Party that they believe in free speech so an on campus march would be just fine? (The admin finally came to their senses and halted the NBPP at the edge of campus.)
Ever been ordered to flee your dorm room during finals week in fear for your life because the NBPP was coming to town promising justice?
Ever had a member of the NBPP shout "Dead man walking" to you in a court of law and had the judge blithely ignore it?
Ever had to put your life on hold for 13 months because someone told an obvious lie about you?
Ever had to spend $3,000,000 to keep from going to jail for 20-30 years?
There's much more. Want me to go on?
In short, whatever their faults and mistakes, they've put PAID, PAID and PAID again to any debt they might have.
On the day of their complete and historic exoneration (yes historic - ever heard an AG say "completely innocent" before?), for anyone to even BRING UP their many-times acknowledged and paid-off mistakes is a small-minded and petty attempt to tarnish a completely one-sided vindication and does, in fact, put them in the same boat with the people who tried to railroad them because that's EXACTLY what those people are saying. There is no nuance or moral equivalency today.
Posted by: Locomotive Breath at April 13, 2007 03:05 PM (W7Snj)
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Confederate Yankee, have you read Terry Moran's article in its entirety? I'm assuming you have since you stated that you "tend to think he's right". By saying that you've laid your blessing on the thinking that he has espoused. And I believe that he's grounding much of his apparent belief in the intrinsic badness of "priviledged white males". You may think that's a wonderful bandwaggon to jump on, but I don't and I don't respect any one who jumps on such beliefs. I guess you're feeling your way toward the mainstream media. Well, I'm off to get on my high horse and ride away.
Posted by: Whippersnapper at April 13, 2007 03:20 PM (6yHgW)
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So what you are saying, LB, is that the horrors they have been exposed to for things they didn't do, completely exonerates them for any of the things that they did do.
Gotta go.
John McCain was tortured in a Vietnamese prison camp, so I own him an apology for opposing his campaign finance reform bill.
/sarcasm.
Just like those you say you are not emulating, you're attempting to whip up an emotional response, and you give in to that emotional response on your own, whipping yourself into an indignant lather, convinced above all that those who disagree with you in any way are the scum of the earth.
I have made the profoundly profane statement that these young men should not be canonized or made into idols. I furthered the blasphemy by stating they were "absolutely normal college kids."
Wow.
What harsh, unforgivable language I used.
Perhaps I should be beheaded with a lacrosse stick, and my skull nailed to the front door of Duke Chapel as a warning to others who dare not bow to the feet of three otherwise ordinary men.
Ever had your photo on the cover of Newsweek with the word RAPE next to it?
No. the closest I ever got was the opinion section of the Washington Post beside Charles Krauthammer.
The words next to my headshot? Not Rape.
Toodles. Gotta write that letter asking forgiveness from St. John of Arizona.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at April 13, 2007 03:37 PM (9y6qg)
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I think the offending graph in his piece wsd where he compared the Duke lax players as with the Rutgers team and said their lives won't be so bad now that they've been exonerated.
It smacked of haughty left-wing elitism:
As students of Duke University or other elite institutions, these young men will get on with their privileged lives. There is a very large cushion under them--the one that softens the blows of life for most of those who go to Duke or similar places, and have connections through family, friends and school to all kinds of prospects for success. They are very differently situated in life from, say, the young women of the Rutgers University women's basketball team.
http://newsbusters.org/node/12002
Posted by: Ken Shepherd at April 13, 2007 04:25 PM (Kvgcl)
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Confederate Yankee: Perhaps I should be beheaded with a lacrosse stick, and my skull nailed to the front door of Duke Chapel"
No you just need a good kick up the backside.
These kids have suffered for well over a year now and any gracious person would allow them their day in the sun.
It takes a vicious small-minded fool to throw trivial and irrelevant allegations at them.
The racists in this saga have uniformly been on the side attacking the boys.
Posted by: Blue at April 14, 2007 04:06 AM (90v6c)
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Confederate Yankee,
I think we all realize these college kids are just that. Certainly they are no saints, and you have subsequently made clear in the comments you agree with this point.
I just think your initial post did not do an effective job of conveying that. At all.
Further, I suppose I see you point, and find it has some merit. But -- and don't attack me, this is just my very subjective personal opinion -- your focus is a bit off. I know that bloggers need to "differentiate" themselves, especially if they want to post on topics de jure that other bloggers are posting on. But, in trying to do so, I think you've missed the forest for the trees.
You come off as a sympathizer with all those who play the victim and the rest of those towing the line of the liberal mindset. I have read some of your other posts when they are linked on Memeorandum. This is fairly sub-par by standards you have previously displayed.
Not your best work. Hope your skin is thick enough to take some constructive criticism.
Posted by: mjs1_23 at April 14, 2007 05:33 AM (h/fR0)
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I must say this has given me a whole new opinion of you and believe me, it's not favorable. Whether they're innocent or not has nothing to do with the fact that their life has been hell this past year. They've been falsely accused and declared guilty of a heinous crime and both you and Moran are guilty of reverse bigotry.
Posted by: CajunKate at April 14, 2007 01:00 PM (ox+7Q)
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Well of course if they were mysongist racists than there would be a higher likelyhood of guilt. Mysoginst racts are more likely to do the things that they were accused of doing.
Posted by: John Ryan at April 14, 2007 04:25 PM (TcoRJ)
18
and the Black Panthers called them white devils and threatened their lives, please do not get into moral equivalence, those strippers mocked those boy with comments such as "small di**ed crackers, you get what you give and just because you get angry and give it back does not mean you go to jail for 30 years, give me a break.
Posted by: Rightmom at April 16, 2007 10:08 AM (0lpqx)
19
I'd expect a comment like this from the Duke administration not from someone with any insight. Exactly what is the crime of these men that caused them to have their reputations destroyed and have to spend hundreds of thousands of dollars in legal fees? How much more noble they seem than the prosecutor, the accuser and the Duke staff, along with the MSM that judged them guilty based on their race.
They fought against incredible odds. They didn't give in. That goes along way with me. In contrast we have those who painted them as tainted corrupt people. I know who I'd pick. Its easy if you think.
Posted by: Thomas Jackson at April 16, 2007 11:54 PM (YXXuO)
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Black Panther Calls Malkin a Prostitute
Ah, leftists in action.
On the show she apparently creamed him, according to
Don Surber:
You could almost feel the delight in her as she knew she had him. She stuck to her guns while he sputtered and locked into the name-calling mode. He is so stuck in the '60s (although he is far too young to have lived much then) that he could not understand that women really are the equal of men and that they can think for themselves — and mature into the same conservatives that educated men become.
Malkin's response to Malik Shabazz's name-calling is
here.
It's rather sad in this day and age that women and minorities, especially women who
are minorities, are treated so horribly if they have political opinions that stray from what some people think that their skin color
should believe.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
09:15 AM
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Who cares about the Black Panthers? Do you honestly believe they represent mainstream liberalism? If I debate someone from the Aryan Brotherhood can I score some big points for liberals?
Posted by: Lex Steele at April 13, 2007 11:41 AM (0bhUe)
2
...And myleaky shabby is a prostitute for islam,which has enslaved and brutalized his race FAR WORSE,than Whitey ever has,and for over 1,000 longer;the amount of time Whitey "enslaved" blacks,is a drop in the ocean,compared to islam's enslavement and brutalization.
Posted by: kelly at April 13, 2007 12:15 PM (vd4Fg)
3
"the brown, female mouthpiece for racist drivel." = doesn't know her place on Retief's plantation.
Just no point to debating the Left. Aux les lanternes!
Posted by: SDN at April 13, 2007 10:20 PM (CNYKS)
4
"Who cares about the Black Panthers? Do you honestly believe they represent mainstream liberalism?"
Even today, many leftists defend the Black Panther Party.
Posted by: pst314 at April 14, 2007 01:32 PM (lCxSZ)
5
Obviously the Black Panthers do represent mainstream Left thinking. Why is it that no Leftists denounce them or their allies Jessie and Al?
The only thing that differentiates them from the Left is they are more candid in their canards.
Posted by: Thomas Jackson at April 16, 2007 11:59 PM (YXXuO)
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April 12, 2007
Because Unfair Charges are Wrong
One day after normally cautious North Carolina Attorney General Roy Cooper blasted the handling of the Duke Lacrosse rape case and took the extraordinary step of declaring the charged players innocent of all counts, disgraced Durham District Attorney Mike Nifong has issued a trite semi-apology:
Durham District Attorney Mike Nifong acknowledged today that three former Duke University lacrosse players were "wrongfully accused" of sexual assault.
Nifong released a statement one day after N.C. Attorney General Roy Cooper dismissed the charges against the lacrosse players and declared them "innocent" and the victims of an "unchecked" prosecutor who rushed to judgment.
"It is and has always been the goal of our criminal justice system to see that the guilty are punished and that the innocent are set free," Nifong wrote. "No system based on human judgment can ever work perfectly.
"Those of us who work within that system can only make the best judgments we can," Nifong continued. "To the extent that I made judgments that utimately [sic] proved to be incorrect, I apologize to the three suspects that were wrongly accused. ... It is my sincere desire that the actions of Attorney General Cooper will serve to remedy any remaining injury that has resulted from these cases."
But Nifong disputed Cooper's assessment of him as a "rogue" prosecutor.
"The fact that I instead chose to seek that review should in and of itself call into question the characterizations of this prosecution as 'rogue' and 'unchecked,'" he wrote.
Shorter Mike Nifong: "I'll accept that charges shouldn't have been brought, but don't call me a "rogue" just because I conspired to hide evidence that would have exonerated the accused and used a mentally-disturbed girl's inconsistent stories as a battering ram to bludgeon my way into an elected office I promised to the governor
himself I would not run for.
"Why, it is horrible to stigmatize someone with an inaccurate description.
'Cause that would, you know,
be wrong."
Nifong faces a hearing at the North Carolina State Bar's Disciplinary Hearing Committee tomorrow afternoon at 4:00 PM, which will determine if he will be stripped of his law license.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
03:37 PM
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The closest Nifong should ever be allowed to a courtroom in the future is as part of the night cleanup crew.
Posted by: Purple Avenger at April 12, 2007 04:19 PM (UWdQL)
2
Sorry Purple - I hate to disagree but I think he should be allowed back into a courtroom...as a defendent. Didn't this yahoo do some justice obstuctin'?
Posted by: sami at April 12, 2007 05:12 PM (lj7cz)
3
William "cold cash" Jefferson !!!
Never indicted but tried in the press don't we ALL feel badly for having pre-judged him also ?
Posted by: John Ryan at April 14, 2007 04:27 PM (TcoRJ)
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Ten Fred Thompson Facts
From U.S News & World Report:
- Fred Thompson has two speeds: Walk and Kill.
- Fred Thompson once shot down a German fighter plane with his finger, by yelling, "Bang!"
- Fred Thompson has counted to infinity. Twice.
- Fred Thompson is the only man to ever defeat a brick wall in a game of tennis.
- The opening scene of the movie "Saving Private Ryan" is loosely based on games of dodge ball Fred Thompson played in second grade.
- When Fred Thompson goes to donate blood, he declines the syringe, and instead requests a hand gun and a bucket.
- Fred Thompson’s house has no doors, only walls that he walks through.
- When taking the SAT, write "Fred Thompson" for every answer. You will score a 1600.
- The show Survivor had the original premise of putting people on an island with Fred Thompson. There were no survivors and the pilot episode tape has been burned.
- Fred Thompson ordered a Big Mac at Burger King, and got one.
At least I
think that is from
U.S News & World Report.
I hired
Katie Couric's producer as my fact checker, and now I'm not so sure.
* *
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
12:51 PM
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LOL... a welcome break from the Chuck Norris Facts(tm).
Posted by: Jeff at April 12, 2007 01:15 PM (yiMNP)
2
You sure that you're not getting Fred confused with Jack Bauer?
Posted by: lawhawk at April 12, 2007 02:20 PM (a8MXW)
3
Yeah, I want to be Jack Bauer because everywhere I go there would be a satellite I could use to see what is around me and there would NEVER be a cloud between me and that satellite.
Posted by: crosspatch at April 12, 2007 03:23 PM (y2kMG)
4
This article, and those items, #1 through 10, has been plagerizied by the Katie Couric Crew! It should read Nancy "Grandma" Pelosi in lieu of Fred Thompson!! At least that's what Charles Gibson over at ABC probably thinks. Upon discovery of this blatant reversal of facts it is believed Gibson exclaimed..."Well I'll be a nappy-headed hoe!"
Al Sharton wasn't notified of this alleged incident, apparently he was too busy for comment, as he was "handlin bidness" looking for more D sized batteries for his bullhorn. Ex- D.A. Nifong refused comment, but with head in hands, mumbled something about not touchin another hoe with a 10 foot pole (not sure if this was a reference to people of Polish descent). That's all for now. Hey! Who put the chopped ham in my Koran?!
Posted by: jihadgene at April 12, 2007 10:40 PM (FTAjp)
5
Here are some others on Fred.
1 His current wife is younger than his oldest daughter would be (if she hadn't died from a drug overdose)
2 He was the one that coined the phrase that killed Nixon's presidency "what did the President know and when did he know it"
3 Most of his adult life was spent as a lobyist for big corporations
4 He doesn't look as good or as well in real life as he does on TV
5 How can someone who strongly supports the Cuban embargo always be smoking those Cuban cigars ?
Posted by: John Ryan at April 14, 2007 04:32 PM (TcoRJ)
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Meanwhile, in the Other War...
I think the casualty figures are probably inflated, but the overall impact is still worth noting:
President Gen. Pervez Musharraf said Thursday that tribesmen have killed about 300 foreign militants during a weekslong offensive near the Afghan border and acknowledged for first time that they received military support.
The fighting that began last month in South Waziristan has targeted mainly Uzbek militants with links to al-Qaida who have sheltered in the tribal region since escaping the U.S.-led invasion of Afghanistan in late 2001.
"The people of South Waziristan now have risen against the foreigners. They have killed about 300 of them, and they got support from the Pakistan army. They asked for support," Musharraf said in a speech at a military conference in Islamabad.
This amounts to a stronger enemy force killing off a weaker enemy force, and not something that I'd necessarily say is worth celebrating. However, if enough Taliban tribesmen and al Qaeda-linked militants kill each other, it might bleed their enthusiasm to take their jihad to NATO forces in Afghanistan for the time being.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
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Oh yeah things are going just GREAT there also
Posted by: John Ryan at April 14, 2007 04:33 PM (TcoRJ)
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Smoking Kills
Mike Yon reports from within a British Army assault on al Sadr-alligned Shia militia forces, a fight that saw 26-27 militiamen killed and 4,000 rounds of ammunition expended.
The British forces suffered no wounded, at least until after the battle was
well over....
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
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Everyday in that neighborhood about 100 guys turn 21. Population 3,000,000 1/2 male do the math.
Posted by: John Ryan at April 14, 2007 04:36 PM (TcoRJ)
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April 11, 2007
Duke Players Innocent / Media Outs Accuser
Read Ace for the analysis of Attorney General Roy Cooper's press conference stating the Duke Lacrosse players were innocent of all legal charges brought against them.
The Raleigh
News and Observer, perhaps upset that the public furor, class warfare and racial acrimony they helped stir up turned out to be false, reacted by
"outing" the accuser.
Her identity was an
open secret for months on the Internet, but the decision to publish the name of someone that might be less than stable in the community where she lives seems punitive in nature, and perhaps more than a little dangerous.
Update: The
N&O explains why they outed her.
Fox piles on. Hard.
Most other media outlets display a little bit of class.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
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1
I haven't commented on this anywhere, not even my own blog, even though I live in Durham.
I was embarrassed for our town for a lot of reasons, not the least for attracting the attention of idiots like Rita Cosby and Nancy Grace.
But it had everything needed to become the distraction du jour - race, sex, poor vs. rich, townie vs. university kids. That Nifong pushed it so hard to curry favor with our politically-powerful black community didn't help.
Now these rich kids are probably going to sue the city and I can't say I blame them. The trouble is, it'll come out of my pocket.
I hate to see innocent people wrongfully accused (one of the reasons I'm a liberal) and these lacrosse kids didn't deserve what they got, but they were no angels. The entire team was out of control and the coach deserved to lose his job. It wasn't unusual for the team to take over one of the sports bars downtown, get roaring drunk, puke on the tables and then stiff the waitress with no tip or, sometimes, an unpaid check.
Because they were Duke athletes, they got a free pass. So there was no sympathy for them in this case, but it was, in the end, an injustice.
As with so many things in life, there are no good guys in this story.
Posted by: David Terrenoire at April 11, 2007 03:09 PM (kxecL)
2
David,
While I understand what you are saying, that is really arguing apples and oranges. That the locals (bar owners, police, etc) allow the star athletes to get away with acting like idiots is not even remotely the same thing as someone taking the power of the state to persecute innocent people, all for political gain.
Your town deserves to have a huge civil judgment against it and for the victims (the lacrosse players). Maybe that will help wake the powerful black community up. Anyone with one iota of sense would have realized that Nifong was pandering and it was clear pretty early on that the lacrosse players were innocent.
Where was your town then? Maybe if some people in your town had the conscience to step forward way back when and do something about Nifong and deal with this case, the town would not get what is coming to it.
Simply saying bahh, everyone is a bad guy is moral relativism at its worse, and is why I am NOT a liberal. There were good guys and bad guys here. The good guys were the innocent lacrosse players. The bad guys were Nifong, your town's police department, other prosecutors in your town's DA office, your town's electorate, and the college teachers and administration.
Sorry, but maybe you should think a little harder before trying to claim these guys got what they deserve b/c they acted like drunk college kids. Your town, and the liberal class/race victim mentality is about to reap what it has been sowing for all these years in your town. It is a reckoning that is going to come to more and more towns in the future as well, as people abrogate personal responsibility for the greater meta-narrative of class and race victimology, and the vast majority of Americans get sick enough of it to lash back.
As to whether the accuser should have her identity published - I say yes. And, I don't care that she may be mentally unbalanced. Maybe she, or her therapist, or someone in her family should have thought of that before they allowed her to try and ruin innocent people's lives. Maybe liberals should re-think their position on not allowing us to involuntarily commit the mentally ill. If we could have put her in a mental institution, where she allegedly claims to belong, maybe this would not have happened.
Posted by: Great Banana at April 11, 2007 03:42 PM (JFj6P)
3
To try and explain my point above a little more,
In almost every civil rights false arrest, malicious prosecution, excessive force claim that I deal with (I defend municipalities in such cases), the plaintiff is usually someone with a fairly lengthy records, people who have a lot of contact with the police.
Then, in some incident, they may have a case as to false arrest, or excessive force.
Should we as a society say - bahhh, they are all bad guys here and not allow the plaintiff's civil suit to go forward b/c of his previous record? Should the police be allowed to use excessive force on people b/c they were bad in past incidents?
that's just one example of the kind of reasoning displayed in the "no good guys here" type of argument in order to try and wallpaper the reason this case got to where it is today.
Posted by: Great Banana at April 11, 2007 03:48 PM (JFj6P)
4
Great Banana,
There were plenty of people in this town who did exactly what you suggested.
And pleasedon't read into what I wrote that I think the lacrosse players were wrongly accused. Look back and you'll see I used the word "injustice." I don't use that word carelessly.
No, these kids were out of control but they didn't deserve what they got. When I said there are no good guys in this case, I stand by that. They didn't deserve what they got, but they deserved some discipline before.
The coach deserved to lose his job. The kids should have been kicked out of school for their behavior. They should not have been prosecuted.
I hope that's clear enough. Again, read what I originally wrote, not what you think I wrote.
Posted by: David Terrenoire at April 11, 2007 04:00 PM (kxecL)
5
And please don't read into what I wrote that I think the lacrosse players were wrongly accused.
That should read, ...that I don't think the players were wrongfully accused.
They were.
Just wanted to clean up that typo.
And Great Banana, we agree on everything except that "no good guys" statement. Those kids were punks and someone should have kicked their butts (like their parents) a long time ago. They are not good guys, but that doesn't make them rapists.
Posted by: David Terrenoire at April 11, 2007 04:08 PM (kxecL)
6
It wasn't unusual for the team to take over one of the sports bars downtown, get roaring drunk, puke on the tables and then stiff the waitress with no tip or, sometimes, an unpaid check.
IOW - they behaved like college students.
Posted by: Purple Avenger at April 11, 2007 04:38 PM (yHGOW)
7
>>>I hate to see innocent people wrongfully accused (one of the reasons I'm a liberal)>>
You have got to be kidding me. Funniest thing I've read in weeks. Oh, man, this from a guy who has pics on his blog of Karl Rove being led off to prison. Gosh, David, see please tell me all the crimes that Rove has committed. Or are you just wrongfully accusing someone you disagree with, and maybe that's the reason you're a liberal, hmm?
Posted by: a commenter at April 11, 2007 06:59 PM (RtCfp)
8
a commenter,
There are things in the world called jokes, even jokes with an edge, and then there's the real world.
And there are things that are against the law and then there's behavior that, while not illegal, is certainly disgraceful.
I know the difference.
Posted by: David Terrenoire at April 11, 2007 11:12 PM (tk0b2)
9
Posted by David Terrenoire at April 11, 2007 11:12 PM
I understand where you are coming from. I do disagree on one small point. The players should be held accountable for their own actions, that the police and townspeople chose not to allowed them to believe their actions were accepted. Since the town implicitly allowed them there "steam blowing", the fault lies with the town, not the players. The town had no control. Put the blame where it belongs so you that live there can stop this from happening again. Make the officials do their jobs, not turn away.
Posted by: Retired Navy at April 12, 2007 05:20 AM (BuYeH)
10
If leaving small/no tips is a crime, we'd have to indict the whole country of Canada. Canadians during tourist season in FL are notorious no tippers.
Posted by: Purple Avenger at April 12, 2007 10:05 AM (yHGOW)
11
David T.
You are moralizing (in fact you may be racist using the criteria applied to Imus). You are trying the players based on your concept of how people should act. They did not break the law by drinking and getting sick. They did not deserve to be brought before the law and condemed in the manner that occured.
The faculty at Duke used your brand of moralizing to condeme these men based on very little evidence available to them and thus made their lives even more miserable.
I have been to Durham. I found the town to be extremely racist. But it was black on white, not the other way. In that environment it is easy to understand how this tragedy occured.
I certainly hope that the town is bankrupt by this action and that the same occurs to Duke and the "88".
Posted by: David Caskey,MD at April 12, 2007 12:07 PM (G5i3t)
12
David Caskey MD,
Apparently they hand out MDs to people who have little reading comprehension.
Sweet Jebus. Here. In short sentences. In few syllables:
The boys did not deserve what happened to them.
The boys were undisciplined punks.
The boys have every right to sue.
Now, if anyone can find "moralizing" whatever that means (and if it means calling bad behavior bad then paint me guilty), or "moral relativism" in those three sentences, it's because you have pulled it out of your own bigoted backside.
And Doc, if you can't stand a little rough and tumble, Durham is not the town for you. Try Cary. It's boring, it's bland, it's beige, and I think it's just your speed.
Posted by: David Terrenoire at April 12, 2007 12:45 PM (tk0b2)
13
David T.
Perhaps I can read a bit better than you can express yourself. In one part of your comments you indicate that you are so sorry for these people, but then in another you bring up their priviledged behavior. To a reader or listener this negative counters the positive statement and implies that you really like that something bad happened to the boys. I am not the only one on this blog that got the message.
The personal attack is true to what I have seen of liberals.
As to being able to "take it". You obviously missed the point. The people of Durham (for what ever reason) are prejudiced against whites. It takes only about 5 minutes in a public setting to get this message. Thus any white will not get fair treatment at their hands and their actions are the result of their hate. Notice that whites are not allowed this priveldge.
Posted by: David Caskey,MD at April 12, 2007 01:39 PM (G5i3t)
14
Here's the Coleman report which was issued in the aftermath of the party last spring. I encourage Confederate Yankee readers to have a look. You will soon realize that characterizing the lacrosse team as "undisciplined punks" is a gross overstatement. Yes they liked to party, but you don't achieve near national champion status with a 10 year 100% graduation rate by being undisciplined.
http://www.dukenews.duke.edu/mmedia/features/lacrosse_incident/lacrossereport.html
The underlying problem is that Duke about 10 years ago made an effort to push alcohol off campus. We (I'm an alum) used to have our keggers on campus where we could be loud and rowdy and not bother the locals. Everybody was happy except for the neo-prohibitionists. So now the law of unintended consequences takes over and we have unconstructive interactions between students and locals.
Posted by: Locomotive Breath at April 12, 2007 01:52 PM (W7Snj)
15
I meant to add...
"the decision to publish the name of someone that might be less than stable in the community where she lives seems punitive in nature"
An unstable woman who maintains for a year multiple rape stories that are untrue and causes the mess she has needs to be identified so the rest of us can stay the hell away from her. If that's punitive it's far less than the 30 year incarceration that she deserves for trying to get these three guys sent to jail for the same 30 years and is a small enough price to pay.
Posted by: Locomotive Breath at April 12, 2007 01:59 PM (W7Snj)
16
Well...I'm not sure whether here ID should have been published. But I will say this - the young men's names were published, and they were dragged through hell - and who ended up being the victims? Newspapers in general do not publish the names of the "victim" of a sex crime. But as it turns out, this woman was not a victim. The guys were. So what is fair? My own POV is that no names are published until the proceedings are done. There are way to many false allegations happening in this country.
BTW David T. - As I understand it, not all of the three boys were "rich kids". Maybe you are unaware of how much it costs to defend yourself in court nowadays. Figure loosely about $100K per year before trial, and another $100K at trial. Realism hurts, doesn't it?
Posted by: Specter at April 13, 2007 08:48 AM (ybfXM)
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Fisking Fisk
The man who has been wrong so often that he became a verb, is at it again:
Faced with an ever-more ruthless insurgency in Baghdad - despite President George Bush's "surge" in troops - US forces in the city are now planning a massive and highly controversial counter-insurgency operation that will seal off vast areas of the city, enclosing whole neighbourhoods with barricades and allowing only Iraqis with newly issued ID cards to enter.
The campaign of "gated communities" - whose genesis was in the Vietnam War - will involve up to 30 of the city's 89 official districts and will be the most ambitious counter-insurgency programme yet mounted by the US in Iraq.
The system has been used - and has spectacularly failed - in the past, and its inauguration in Iraq is as much a sign of American desperation at the country's continued descent into civil conflict as it is of US determination to "win" the war against an Iraqi insurgency that has cost the lives of more than 3,200 American troops. The system of "gating" areas under foreign occupation failed during the French war against FLN insurgents in Algeria and again during the American war in Vietnam. Israel has employed similar practices during its occupation of Palestinian territory - again, with little success.
Mr. Fisk claims that the style of counterinsurgency to be used in Baghdad had its "genesis" in the Vietnam War. This is especially troubling, considering that in the
very next paragraph, Fisk brings up the French war in Algeria as another example.
The seminal work of counter-insurgency,
Counterinsurgency Warfare: Theory and Practice was written in 1964 by French Lt. Col David Galula, eight years
after he first implemented them in 1956 in Greater Kabylia, east of Algiers.
The United States did not bring ground troops into Vietnam until the first detachment of 3,500 Marines was dispatched on March 8, 1965,
nearly a decade after Galula began modern counter-insurgency tactics in Algeria.
I'm quite curious: does Robert Fisk conduct his research using "alternative history" books as a guide?
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
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You could interpret this phrase:
"The campaign of 'gated communities' - whose genesis was in the Vietnam War..."
as referring to the American military's adoption of the technique - sloppy writing instead of a mistake - as he gets the chronology correct later in the quoted piece here:
"The system of 'gating' areas under foreign occupation failed during the French war ... in Algeria and again during the American war in Vietnam."
I'm not so interested in whether Fisk got his chronology wrong as I am whether he's right about the 'gating' idea. I assume he's talking about strategic hamlets in Vietnam and, in that case, they were a monumental failure mostly because we moved people away from their homes which went against deeply engrained cultural norms.
That seems to be a whole different kettle of nuoc mom than what we're proposing in Iraq.
If that's what he's referring to then Fisk is indeed wrong, but for much more significant reasons than merely getting his history bolloxed.
Posted by: David Terrenoire at April 11, 2007 01:43 PM (kxecL)
2
Fisk is an idiot. nuf said.
Posted by: 1sttofight at April 11, 2007 01:53 PM (+gb4I)
3
Thanks, Bob.
And I promise, no more nuoc mom.
But like other things in this world, once you get used to the smell, it's really quite tasty.
Sorry. I couldn't resist.
Posted by: David Terrenoire at April 11, 2007 02:28 PM (kxecL)
4
"Faced with an ever-more ruthless insurgency in Baghdad"
Interesting choice of words. "Ruthless" is subjective. It can't be measured. There could be fewer attacks or less casualties but the attackers could be more "ruthless". It also can't be argued against because how does one go about proving that people are more or less "ruthless" than before?
Fisk is entertaining if not particularly informative.
Posted by: crosspatch at April 11, 2007 09:54 PM (y2kMG)
5
I guess not being ruthless means you're a murderer who doesn't just drop bodies on any old street corner. You have a concern for the environment and don't litter.
Posted by: Purple Avenger at April 12, 2007 05:40 AM (yHGOW)
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Is the Associated Press At it Again?
You'll likely remember that the Associated Press uncritically published an Association of Muslim Scholars claim on November 25, 2006 that 18 Sunni worshipers were killed in an "inferno" at the Al Muhaimin mosque in the Hurriyah neighborhood of Baghdad:
And the Association of Muslim Scholars, the most influential Sunni organization in Iraq, said even more victims were burned to death in attacks on the four mosques. It claimed a total of 18 people had died in an inferno at the al-Muhaimin mosque.
The claim has never been substantiated.
To the contrary, the Iraqi military forces reported
no evidence of a fire having ever occurred inside the mosque, a conclusion also supported in U.S. military accounts. A
photo of the interior of the mosque taken the very next day proves there was no "inferno."
The Associated Press has never issued a retraction or a correction for this clearly fabricated claim.
But why throw away a perfectly good source, just because they've been caught fabricating stories?
Today, the Associated Press once again used the Association of Muslim Scholars as a
quite dubious source:
The Muslim Scholars Association, a Sunni group, issued a statement quoting witnesses as saying Tuesday's battle began after Iraqi troops entered a mosque and executed two young men in front of other worshippers. Ground forces used tear gas on civilians, it said.
"The association condemns this horrible crime carried out by occupiers and the government," the statement said.
But the witness in Fadhil said the two men were executed in an outdoor vegetable market, not in the mosque. The Iraqi military was not immediately available to comment on the claim.
Why does the Associated Press continue to use an organization with an obvious political agenda, ties to al Qaeda, and a documented history of providing false information as a source?
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
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Why? I will tell you why because it supports the story they want to run, nothing more, nothing less.
Posted by: Rightmom at April 11, 2007 12:01 PM (0lpqx)
2
... because the Iraqi military was not available to comment on the "claim," perhaps? Odd though that the AP readily uses sources like the MSA but has no one available within the military to confirm or deny their stories before they go to print.
Posted by: DoorHold at April 11, 2007 02:06 PM (QTJvw)
3
That's a rhetorical question, right? Heh.
Posted by: Bleepless at April 12, 2007 10:02 PM (0+yKR)
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Pelosi Diplomacy: Legitimizing Terrorism
When Democrat Presidential candidates Clinton, Obama and Edwards dropped out of the Congressional Black Caucus Institute debate that was going to be co-sponsored by Fox News, many liberals crowed over the decision. It is their contention that Fox News is an "illegitimate" news source (or a "propaganda machine," or not even a news outlet at all. Someone should tell Nielsen), and that if these candidates had answered the questions provided by the CBCI in a televised debate on Fox News, it would "legitimize" the network.
Their central argument seems to be that if these Democrat candidates appeared on Fox, that their very presence would legitimize the news network.
Using that same logic, what then, should they make of
this?
House Speaker Nancy Pelosi and Rep. Tom Lantos, D-San Mateo, just back from a trip to Syria that sparked sharp criticism from Republicans and the Bush administration, suggested Tuesday that they may be interested in taking another diplomatic trip - to open a dialogue with Iran.
The Democratic speaker from San Francisco and Lantos, chairman of the House Foreign Affairs Committee, were asked at a press conference in San Francisco Tuesday whether on the heels of their recent trip to the Middle East they would be interested in extending their diplomacy in the troubled region with a visit to Iran.
"Speaking just for myself, I would be ready to get on a plane tomorrow morning, because however objectionable, unfair and inaccurate many of (Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad's) statements are, it is important that we have a dialogue with him,'' Lantos said. "Speaking for myself, I'm ready to go -- and knowing the speaker, I think that she might be.''
Pelosi did not dispute that statement, and noted that Lantos -- a Hungarian-born survivor of the Holocaust -- brought "great experience, knowledge and judgment" to the recent bipartisan congressional delegation trip to Israel, the Palestinian territories, Lebanon and Saudi Arabia in addition to Syria.
Pelosi has already been hammered for
undermining U.S. foreign policy and possibly
committing a felony when she visited Syrian President Bashir Assad, leader of a Baathist dictatorship that serves as a conduit for weapons bound for terror groups Hezbollah and Hamas, and is a regime that is implicated in the assassination of Lebanon's former prime minister.
Not content with
botching her last and possibly illegal attempt to create her own foreign policy separate from that of the official position of the United States, Pelosi seems open to the idea of visiting Iran, a brutal mullacracy that provides munitions and training to terrorist groups, whose officials will be
indicted for murder, a regime that has
conclusively shipped a significant quantity of weapons into Iraq that have killed American soldiers.
Apparently, the double standard is this:
Liberals are solidly behind the idea of boycotting a news network to avoid giving them legitimacy, but they are in favor of defying their own government's foreign policy to lend legitimacy to
yet another terrorist state that has sponsored attacks on our allies and are actively engaged in trying to kill U.S. soldiers.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
09:03 AM
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1
Correct me if I'm wrong. Current policy is NOT to negotiate with terrorist entities in the event of a hostage situation? If so I encourage her to go.
Posted by: Boss429 at April 11, 2007 09:31 AM (a+Mxg)
2
For the record, I'm a liberal and I think all those candidates should go on Fox. Otherwise they're just gutless punks, much like a certain Commander in Chief and his manufactured town meetings.
I also think we should talk to our enemies, just as the Iraq Study Group suggested. Otherwise you have the Paris Hilton/Nicole Richie foreign policy that is working out so well for this administration.
More to the point, this is all last week's outrage. We've moved on to Don Imus' gaffe - this morning on MSNBC and Anna Nicole's baby's daddy - this morning on Fox. I don't know what was on CNN but I'm going to guess it was something equally vacuous.
Posted by: David Terrenoire at April 11, 2007 09:36 AM (kxecL)
3
The reason Dems shouldn't go on FOX is not because it might legitamize FOX as a news organization (they're politicians, not miracle workers), it's because it's a waste of their time.
If they wanted to go into a hostile environment, they could just go to Iraq.
BTW, nice job on that Iraq War. Now the whole world knows if you mess with America, we'll send our military over to lose a war to your teenagers.
Posted by: Robert at April 11, 2007 12:35 PM (VTtVl)
4
If Ms Pelosi did indeed commit a felony stop carping about it and CHARGE her. Apparently Mr Bush did not have any prior knowledge of her trip or did he?
Personally I would love to see the results of a Logan Act charge against the House speaker, so go ahead we dare you do it.
As to a dialog, with our enemies we know only wusses like the Brits talk first and shoot later or not at all.
Fox nooz is as any good Republic will tell the word of God spoken though Bill O'Reilly and God really does want to see Iran enveloped by a mushroom cloud ask Bill himself, the voices tell him it is so
Posted by: patx77 at April 11, 2007 12:57 PM (2kVOV)
5
first off...fox is not a news network by any definition.
second...you right wingers sure are torqued off that the adults are actually interested in pursueing an effective foreign policy. i know... big changes can be scary. karl has y'all so scared to death of the middle-eastern boogeymen that you can't even think straight.
Posted by: jay k. at April 11, 2007 01:16 PM (yu9pS)
6
Are you saying that Bashir Assad isn't the legitimate ruler of Syria?
Or are you saying that because Syria has a foreign policy that isn't in line with our own, Bashir Assad shouldn't be "legitimized"?
Either way, your thinking is convoluted and illogical.
Posted by: ME at April 11, 2007 01:24 PM (HsdZl)
7
Yeah, charge Pelosi with a felony...right after you charge the Republican congressmen who went BEFORE, DURING and AFTER Pelosi's trip.
But apparently, the double standard is this: Conservatives are solidly behind the idea of hypocritically attacking any Dem they can, but they are in favor of letting Bush ruin the worldwide goodwill we had from 9/11, forgetting that he still hasn't captured Bin Laden, and sitting idly by while he loses a war for us.
Nice work!
Posted by: MattM at April 11, 2007 01:46 PM (NZ/aJ)
8
NOTE: As if you couldn't tell by the off-topic, disjointed, and otherwise "reality-based" comments dropped by the last few commentors, this post was linked by Salon.com.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at April 11, 2007 02:06 PM (9y6qg)
9
NOTE: You can put all the quotation remarks around the words "reality-based" you want, but it doesn't change the fact that it is the Bush administration and it's zombie cheerleaders like yourself that are living in la-la land.
Posted by: Super90 at April 11, 2007 02:26 PM (j8Wg4)
10
Christ. It's a virtual moron convention around here.
"...sitting idly by while he loses a war for us."
As opposed to cheering on a loss like moral cretins like you. Do you losers realize that we're going to face intractable foreign enemies long after Bush is out of office. Do you really believe that nation states don't act on their own volition without provocation from the US? Are you that invested in hating Bush that you really think all of the world's and our problems will magically float away once he's gone. Are you that imbecilic? Do you really think it's a winning political strategy to coddle our enemies? What part of "death to America" is so hard for you retards to understand?
Posted by: kelly at April 11, 2007 03:12 PM (5pSKg)
11
First off, Leatherfac Pelosi's visit isn't what was illegal, it was her trying to implement her own foreign policy over that of a standing presidnent (who has ultimate authority on foreign policy that made it illegal...and Jay K...you're a moron...I'd like to see what definition your talking about that defines Fox News as NOT a news organization (wikapedia doesn't count here) I'm sure by whatever definition you're "definging" fox news would also define other news sources (NPR, CNN NBC) as not news sources. MattM...you're another moron...the visit itself...although fround upon...is not the reason for the potential felony. You're just another glaring example of how emotionally driven liberal thinking is. I mean really, what else can you say about politicians who don't have enough courage to stand up to a news organization but are willing to suck the nuts of murderous dictators. It also says alot of what they think of certain Americans. So...I guess "all animals are equal bus some are more equal than others" can apply here.
Posted by: marco at April 11, 2007 03:27 PM (ZmIE8)
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Kelly, I'd love you to show me where I said I was "cheering on a loss" or where I said our problems will "magically float away". Maybe you could point me to where I wrote that "a winning political strategy is to coddle our enemies"?
No really. I'll wait.
No? Can't find where I said that? Maybe you were just too busy calling me childish names and making up fantasies about what I said.
Maybe when you're through, you can explain to me how it's a winning strategy to keep killing more and more of our soldiers without ever changing strategy despite Iraq's continuing downward spiral.
Maybe you can explain how it's a winning political strategy to get thousands upon thousands of Iraqis (who were supposed to greet us as liberators, remember?) to flood the streets and demand we stop occupying their country?
Perhaps you can help me understand how ignoring almost every single recommendation of the Iraq Study Group is a smart move.
No really. I'll wait.
Can't do that either? Then I guess name calling and lying is all you have left. Which fits - because that's all your dumb-ass president has left, too.
Posted by: MattM at April 11, 2007 04:08 PM (NZ/aJ)
13
"I mean really, what else can you say about politicians who don't have enough courage to stand up to a news organization but are willing to suck the nuts of murderous dictators."
Marco, you're absolutely right. I can't believe Bush wouldn't conduct a single televised Town Hall meeting without handpicking his audience, and now has the nerve to talk with Kim Jong Il, and use rendition to deliver foreign captives who haven't been convicted of anything to be tortured in other countries with murderous dictators!
The hypocracy is stunning.
Posted by: MattM at April 11, 2007 04:14 PM (NZ/aJ)
14
Salon, huh? Dang, dude, the last time that happened to me it took days to sweep out the troll-sh!t.
I excerpted and linked at 2007.04.08 Islamism Delenda Est // Dem Perfidy Roundup
NOTE: 9/12 is my reality.
Posted by: Bill Faith at April 11, 2007 04:15 PM (n7SaI)
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Well, gee, Matt, noting the bile you disgorge over Bush and jumping to unproven (at the least) claims that whatever the strategy we're doing in Iraq, it's not working, I'd say you're pretty well invested in your hatred of all things Bush.
Your concern with our soldiers is touching though. Why don't you let them finish the job? Do you read any milblogs? Do you know anyone in the military?
You think it's that hard to get five thousand idle Iraqis to join up for an anti-American march?
Your gullibility isn't as touching.
The Iraqi Study Group? Did you read it? Did you find any reference to...winning? Me neither. Why not call it by its real name: the Iraqi Surrender Group.
As for your sneering back at me, I will admit my comment was a bit intemperate with name-calling. FTR, it wasn't directed at you personally beyond lifting your quote. And further FTR, I'll criticize any pol who thinks she can rewrite the Constitution.
Posted by: kelly at April 11, 2007 04:47 PM (5a01y)
16
In a couple of years, a new president is going to have to begin the process of repairing the damage that Bush has done to America's reputation and national power, rebuilding the wounded military and mending fences with a variety of countries. Pelosi is just getting a head start on this project by establishing lines of communications to the people that we'll eventually have to do business with. In any case, her meetings with Assad and other were utterly unremarkable granted the practice of legislators over the last several decades. State department officials accompanied her at every meeting, and the whole thing had been vetted in advance.
Smearing Pelosi is probably good business from a cynical point of view, though these days you have to be pretty much a mindless tool to still find the umpteenth rendition of the swift-boat tactic credible. Ah, but you'll tell me that there is no shortage of mindless tools to exploit; and, of course, you're right.
Posted by: Jim Harrison at April 11, 2007 04:57 PM (YecKR)
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Kelly,
Conservatives couldn't give 2 shi*s about our soldiers.
It's all about their vanity. "If we leave Iraq we'll look weak", is their mantra.
The soldiers are a prop for conservatives.
They don't want our enemies to know we're weak. Instead they want our enemies to know we're stupid.
BTW, the War is over. We lost. Denial will get us nowhere (other than more dead US soldiers--which, as we know, is no big deal to Conservatives).
Posted by: Robert at April 11, 2007 04:57 PM (VTtVl)
18
Let them finish WHAT job? Would that be trying to find WMDs? Maybe toppling Saddam? Oh wait, it's to bring Democracy to Iraq. What's that you say? All that stuff is done? Crap, what do we do now?
Kelly, the question is, which Milblogs do you read?
Maybe you should try:
Veterans against Iraq War: http://www.vaiw.org/vet/index.php
or maybe this:
http://www.traveling-soldier.org/9.06.majority.php
How about:
http://www.ivaw.org/
Or maybe this site:
www.appealforredress.org
Posted by: MattM at April 11, 2007 05:20 PM (NZ/aJ)
19
Robert,
How old are you, twelve? The left loathes the military and aren't too shy about it. cf William Jefferson Clinton. Guess what? If the war is lost, it won't be just one political party in the US to reap the consequences. Just a friendly tip.
Jim,
Tell me how many countries were involved with Oil For Food? Huh? Who was prez during that time? Mindless ignorance of facts doesn't forward your case.
Posted by: kelly at April 11, 2007 05:23 PM (5a01y)
20
You folks won't be happy until we're paying the Jizya. It's WW3, clowns, and no amount of denial and appeasing by you Quislings is going to change that fact. They've got us by the balls, all right: a martyr cult enabled by the propagandists of our own Fifth Column. The hell with you, you totalitarian America-haters. Wittingly or not, you and vile and villainous Pelosi and Lantos are trying to get us killed -- or at least offer us all up as hostages. You wield your ever-shifting standards (of feminism, greenism, communism, multiculturalism) like an upraised cudgel. You are not anyone's betters. You have abandoned all moral authority in favor of a sliding moral scale. You befoul the memories of those who have died, have been maimed or grievously scarred in this crusade (for, like it or not, that's what it is, my dhimmi fellow travelers). You afflict this country and are merely trying to assuage your own blinkered consciences until you pass into (you'd better hope) your atheistic oblivion. You are, to put it mildly, verminous.
Posted by: Alex at April 11, 2007 05:26 PM (kenTX)
21
Well, Matt, tell me, what would be your plan for Iraq? You seem to have all the answers.
Posted by: kelly at April 11, 2007 05:27 PM (5a01y)
22
Come on.
a) Please show one thing that Pelosi said or did which contracted the White House in *any way*.
b) Please show one thing that Pelosi said or did which the White House wasn't told BY PELOSI she would do before she left.
c) Please show how Pelosi's visit is substantively different than Republican congressmen's visit before, during and after her own.
If you can't show these, then please move on.
Posted by: jim at April 11, 2007 05:35 PM (QAh+h)
23
Kelly, my plan for Iraq?
How about something different from the last 4 years?
And I'm not being coy. Bush f***ed it up in the beginning by not sending enough troops and then disbanding the Iraqi army. And now we're at a point where even sending another 100,000 troops wouldn't make any difference - other than to up our military body count.
So why not try a deadline and see if the Iraqi government finally holds up its end of the deal?
Or try diplomacy with neighboring countries.
Or break the country up into three parts for the Sunnis, the Shiites and the Kurds.
There's no shortage of smart people with potential ideas. The problem is, good old commander in chief is too stubborn to even listen to any of them, let alone try them.
Posted by: MattM at April 11, 2007 05:45 PM (NZ/aJ)
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Ahem...in above post, I meant to type "contradicted the White House in *any way*".
Posted by: jim at April 11, 2007 05:48 PM (QAh+h)
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So she told the White House that she was going to set her own foreign policy? From http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=D8OB9KC80&show_article=1
Our message was President Bush’s message,” Pelosi said in a phone interview with The Associated Press from Portugal, where she stopped briefly en route back to the United States.
...
It became clear to President Assad that even though we have our differences in the United States, there is no division between the president and the Congress and the Democrats on the message we wanted him to receive."
She told the white house that her message was the same one President Bush would have delivered would he have gone to Syria? Is that what you're saying Jim? I just told you how it was different moron! That you have an ostrich atitude is not my fault. Even the WaPo thinks Pelosi was an idiot. http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/04/04/AR2007040402306_pf.html. Not enough? What about the statement she made pretty much claiming that Isreal was ready to resume peace talks...yeah that was also not true. She was is and will always be a power hungry leather face. So JHimmie, move along kid nothing but reality, which doesn't interest you, here.
Posted by: Marco at April 11, 2007 05:51 PM (ZmIE8)
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Because "stay the course" has been working sooooo well for Bush, huh Marco? I mean, "stay the course" has made Iraq so safe that McCain can walk through a market in Baghdad without body armor.
Yeah...that's all sarcasm.
Posted by: MattM at April 11, 2007 06:00 PM (NZ/aJ)
27
Matt M, so your plan will be "something different"? Brilliant! What a great plan! Why didn't you say anything before you military strategy maverick!? (Note: this is sarcasm).
Posted by: marco at April 11, 2007 06:02 PM (ZmIE8)
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Marco: see my above comment.
Posted by: MattM at April 11, 2007 06:09 PM (NZ/aJ)
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Marco: of my 3 points, you only appear to respond to the first -
"a) Please show one thing that Pelosi said or did which contracted the White House in *any way*."
Your response is: "http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/04/04/AR2007040402306_pf.html. ...What about the statement she made pretty much claiming that Isreal was ready to resume peace talks...yeah that was also not true."
Here are some facts for you.
http://www.speaker.gov/blog/?p=215
"Speaker Pelosi accurately relayed a message given to her by Israeli Prime Minister Olmert to Syrian President Assad.
The tough and serious message the Speaker relayed was that, in order for Israel to engage in talks with Syria, the Syrian government must eliminate its links with extremist elements, including Hamas and Hezbollah.
Furthermore, the Speaker told Assad that his government must also take steps to block militants seeking to cross the Syrian border into Iraq and that it must cease its ongoing efforts to destabilize Lebanon and to block the international community’s expressed desire for an international tribunal to investigate the assassination of former Lebanese premier Rafik Hariri....
The Post’s editorial misinterprets a statement issued by the Israeli Prime Minister’s Office...The Speaker neither said nor implied that this message was a change in Israel’s position.
Most troubling, the editorial contradicts the ****Post’s own reporting**** [emphasis mine]...From the Post’s reporting by Elizabeth Williamson today: “Foreign policy experts generally agree that Pelosi’s dealings with Middle East leaders have not strayed far, if at all, from those typical for a congressional trip.”
"...In fact, as The New York Times reported, ****Pelosi herself stated that she supports the President’s policy goals in Syria**** [emphasis mine]."
Posted by: jim at April 11, 2007 06:38 PM (QAh+h)
30
I find it amusing how well the ignorance and immaturity is spread throughout the internet. It does show that some of the trolls are atleast exposed to truth. Those of you who think what Pelosi did was ok and legal must have skipped 8th Grade, never taken a course in U.S. Government or Polical Science. Your knowledge of the constitution is extemely limited. It is interesting how the lefts limited intellect reflects on blogs. The stupidity expressed here is just like that express at atleast one other blog. Only the names have changes, or have they?
Posted by: Zelsdorf Ragshaft III at April 11, 2007 06:58 PM (Jfbhw)
31
So if what Pelosi did was illegal, then CHARGE HER WITH A CRIME.
Come on. Please. Pretty please. I'm begging you to do it. Seriously. Otherwise, shut up.
Posted by: MattM at April 11, 2007 07:15 PM (TqZrA)
32
I counted at least five already debunked lies in this post. Ya'll need to talk Drudge and Hindraker to at least make an attempt to respin things that have already been unspun.
Fox is not a legitimate news source. It is a blatantly dishonest right wing propaganda organ. Comparing a sanctioned (and in the current leadership vacuum necessary) diplomatic visit with enabling home grown fascism is just silly.
Posted by: John Gillnitz at April 11, 2007 07:20 PM (jhc0N)
33
I'm still waiting for any of the right-wingers here to explain why Pelosi's visit was illegal, but the visit by Issa and other Republicans was not.
Posted by: WilliamH at April 11, 2007 08:16 PM (np4rB)
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William, one was authorized by the State Dept one wasn't.
Matt, we would love to charge her, but she has our Justice Dept all in a tizzy over 8 Attorneys.
Maybe they will use it for payback?
Have either of you read any of the links in the above article? Because you really do sound silly.
Posted by: JoeH at April 11, 2007 08:57 PM (VrTMT)
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I did read the story. I've also read several other articles that state that officials from the State Department were with her during the course of the entire trip and attended every meeting she had.
The bizarro world logic on display regarding this entire "incident" is getting tiresome. Several Republican politicos meet with the same people and nothing is said; Pelosi meets with them and she's a traitor.
Posted by: WilliamH at April 11, 2007 09:24 PM (np4rB)
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There is no REAL support for either Bush or the debacle in Iraq. West Point grads are NOT staying in the Army, they are leaving at the first opportunity in higher numbers than at any time in the last 35 years. The Army National Guard now accpts people who score as low as 16th percentile in the AFQT.
Posted by: John Ryan at April 12, 2007 01:52 PM (TcoRJ)
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Well I should also say that only in 34 states will the Army National guard accept people in the 16th percentile. I am not sure but here is my guess: in those 34 states more than 1/2 are "red states". I would like to see an accurate figure on this even if it proves my guess incorrect
Posted by: John Ryan at April 14, 2007 03:32 PM (TcoRJ)
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April 10, 2007
tbogg: Imus wannabe
"Nappy-headed ho's" had been overused, so he went with the next best thing.
Sure, tbogg's a
hypocritical racist, but making a racist attack on a conservative black woman is perfectly acceptable behavior for liberals.
Anticipate other liberal bloggers coming to his defense by sundown.
Update: tbogg's comments echo those of Doonesbury cartoonist Garry Trudeau from April 7, 2004, which prompted
this response:
Recently, Trudeau’s political observations ran a red light in referring to the nation’s National Security Advisor, Dr. Condoleezza Rice, a black woman, as "brown sugar." Frankly, the political satire in the April 7, 2004 Doonesbury escapes me and most women I know, black or white, liberal or conservative, Democrat or Republican. It draws on centuries of deep-rooted, wicked and indefensible portrayals of black women. In doing so, it is decidedly unfunny. The only purpose served by this cartoon strip is that it proved one sad fact: despite the contentions of many, in 21st century America, race and gender still matter.
[snip]
The fact is that black women at the apex of power have struggled long and hard for respect. The struggle still continues. This is why in this context, references to black women as brown sugar are not funny. It reminds us of the historical exploitation of black women in America. It reminds us that there are those who believe that no matter how accomplished we may become, no matter how educated we are, and no matter how many books we read, black women should remain in "their place," figuratively or literally. This place is one that is out of public view.
tbogg joins a long list of liberals that feel it is their right to use racial slurs against
black conservatives.
Some of these past racial attacks on Secretary Rice included Garry Trudeau's "Doonesbury" comic strip having President Bush refer to her as "Brown Sugar," Ted Rall's cartoon suggesting she was a "house nigga" needing "racial re-education" and Jeff Danziger depicting her a the slave "Prissy" from the movie "Gone With the Wind." Additionally, former entertainer Harry Belafonte referred to Secretary Rice as a "house slave" and "sell-out," while NAACP chairman Julian Bond called her a "shield" used by the Bush Administration to deflect racial criticism.
And lest we forget, liberal Steve Gilliard's
Sambo smear against another black conservative, Michael Steele.
Tolerance. It's a liberal value.
Except when they don't feel like it.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
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1
Liberals know how to bring the hate in a really professional manner.
Posted by: Purple Avenger at April 10, 2007 04:39 PM (yHGOW)
2
Shouldn't that be 'whateveh'?
I'm done caring about who says what about whom. Really. It's gossip. We've got far more important things to mull over.
Posted by: Cindi at April 11, 2007 12:51 AM (asVsU)
3
Um, "brown sugar" = "nappy head hos"? Really?
Seems like a bit of a reach to me...
Posted by: Kodos423 at April 11, 2007 04:11 AM (U3VUB)
4
Anticipate other liberal bloggers coming to his defense by sundown.
Why? It's not like he's being attacked by anyone who really matters.
Posted by: Realist at April 11, 2007 06:43 AM (0wTC3)
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Kodos423, "brown sugar" is a racist sexual reference. If you don't believe me, look up the lyrics to the Rolling Stones song "Brown Sugar".
Posted by: MikeM at April 11, 2007 07:42 AM (myTC8)
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How exactly does "Brown Sugar" equate to "nappy-headed hos"?
Hey, at least you're not just pointing out this insignificant statement by a blogger to score some cheap points.
BTW, I think the fact that he capitalized "Brown Sugar" is an obvious reference to the Stones song and its ilk. I suppose you find Mick and Keith "intolerant" too.
Another BTW, "Confederate" is a term which "draws on centuries of deep-rooted, wicked and indefensible portrayals of black women" too.
Hackneyed and obtuse - must be a republican.
Posted by: jlo at April 11, 2007 07:49 AM (yfw+T)
7
I see the Defender Corps has arrived!
I like the logic - since ours is "small 'r' racist stereotyping, and we think yours is "big 'R' racist, we get a pass.
To use the reductio in absurdum filter... oh, never mind, people usually don't get the 'absurdum' part when applied to their POV.
Posted by: John of Argghhh! at April 11, 2007 08:59 AM (HgYAW)
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Trackbacked by The Thunder Run - Web Reconnaissance for 04/11/2007
A short recon of what’s out there that might draw your attention.
Posted by: David M at April 11, 2007 09:39 AM (6+obf)
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Really? The satire in Doonesbury escapes you? It's not that complicated. Perhaps Family Circus is more your speed. Don't even begin to take on Tbogg. He is way out of your league.
EL
Posted by: dre at April 11, 2007 09:39 AM (iD7Q5)
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Dre - satire makes it all okay, then. Oddly, I don't often see that defense as being deemed acceptable when it's the right being satirical.
You personally (whatever your political persuasion) may not suffer that peculiar myopia, but it's at the heart of the Bob's point.
Posted by: John of Argghhh! at April 11, 2007 10:16 AM (HgYAW)
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Actually, dre is right John. You're not in remotely the same league as racist, sexist bloggers.
Curious that anybody is.
Posted by: lex at April 11, 2007 11:22 AM (/A3c5)
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"I see the Defender Corps has arrived!
I like the logic - since ours is "small 'r' racist stereotyping, and we think yours is "big 'R' racist, we get a pass.
To use the reductio in absurdum filter... oh, never mind, people usually don't get the 'absurdum' part when applied to their POV.
Posted by: John of Argghhh! at April 11, 2007 08:59 AM"
---------------------------------------------
John: I'll see your fallacy in logic charge and raise you one more:
STRAW MAN
Description: It is a fallacy to misrepresent someone else's position for the purposes of more easily attacking it, then to knock down that misrepresented position, and then to conclude that the original position has been demolished. It is a fallacy because it fails to deal with the actual arguments that one has made.
I never said that CY is a racist because he uses "confederate" in his blog handle, but instead sought to point out the weak position of someone who argues that another blogger they don't like is a racist because he called a black woman "brown sugar" when he happily employs an online identifier that is (at least in this country) explicitly associated with the cause of maintaining slavery by both law and custom.
Now, I'm just pointing out the inconsistency there, not actually accusing CY of being racist or having a sub-consicous racist intent in choosing to use the term confederate. I don't regularly read this blog, much less know anything about its author, so I would never dare to spread such scurrilous charges without a lot more evidence.
I am a regular reader of Tbogg though and find his insights often biting and hilarious. Why he chose to refer to Ms. Rice as "Brown Sugar" is beyond me, but I would guess the twin pop icons of the Rolling Stones and Doonesbury are the likely antecedents. Does that make what he did right? I would posit the more pressing question is: "was it wrong"? It certainly doesn't make him racist without anymore evidence.
Lastly, your plea to except the cases of satire from knee-jerk cries of "racism", "sexism", etc. is right and should be obvious (but sadly is not to many), which is exactly my point in distinguishing Tbogg (who is making a political point) from the likes of that mean-spirited hag Imus (who made his statement rashly and insensitively with no intent to do anything other than hurt someone).
However, what example of right-wing satire do you specifically refer to? I don't remeber any right-wingers attempting to satirize something that left-wingers attacked as being racist in intent when the opposite was clear to any objective viewer.
I'm sure someone as astute about logical fallacies as yourself wouldn't be introducing a classic red herring in your response to Dre.
Posted by: jlo at April 11, 2007 01:10 PM (yfw+T)
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Why he chose to refer to Ms. Rice as "Brown Sugar" is beyond me
What does Occam's Razor suggest? He's simply a racist.
Posted by: Purple Avenger at April 11, 2007 04:41 PM (yHGOW)
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jlo: maybe you can kid yourself, but do not try and kid everyone else, tbogg's caption is clearly racist (negative comment based on color of skin); you can continue to defend tbogg, but read over caption and ask yourself, is this how I would want to be portrayed if that were me (caption is based on color of skin rather than merits of acccomplishment); the answer is NO, whether you will admit it or not.
Posted by: Bored at Work at April 12, 2007 07:22 PM (zu8Ks)
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And I am loving the idea that Imus insulting a female basketball team was "satire". What exactly was he satirising?
Posted by: Dr Zen at April 13, 2007 05:12 AM (OWLWF)
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Why he chose to refer to Ms. Rice as "Brown Sugar" is beyond me
What does Occam's Razor suggest? He's simply a racist.
Posted by: Purple Avenger at April 11, 2007 04:41 PM
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Purple - Occam's Razor could also suggest that you're simply a disingenuous authoritarian who loves to declare someone a racist upon the most paper-thin evidence, particularly when you disagree with his political stance. I'm sure if Imus was Rush, you would be on the other side arguing against "pc culture" run amok.
Maybe not, but Occam's Razor analysis does concern itself with nuance, does it?
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jlo: maybe you can kid yourself, but do not try and kid everyone else, tbogg's caption is clearly racist (negative comment based on color of skin); you can continue to defend tbogg, but read over caption and ask yourself, is this how I would want to be portrayed if that were me (caption is based on color of skin rather than merits of acccomplishment); the answer is NO, whether you will admit it or not.
Posted by: Bored at Work at April 12, 2007 07:22 PM
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Bored - Is this site always so supercilious? How is it "clearly racist" to point out that someone is black? By that standard, anyone who remarks that Barack is a "black candidate" running for Prez in '08 is a racist? And clearly, by your standard, Rush Limbaugh's comments about Donovan McNabb were "clearly racist" as he was basing his criticisms of the media on his perception that McNabb's celebrity was based almost exclusively upon his skin color. Race is a social construct we are forced to live with until our society does a lot more growing up. Until then, toughen up or stay home.
As to the "caption" you refer to, it's a snippet from a larger post about Wolfowitz's possible corruption problems at the World Bank. So, yes the issue is the "merits of her accomplishments", the quality of which reasonable men can differ about.
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And I am loving the idea that Imus insulting a female basketball team was "satire". What exactly was he satirising?
Posted by: Dr Zen at April 13, 2007 05:12 AM
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Dr - I don't know if you were directly responding to my comment, but if so - I have to wonder if you somehow missed the part where I said this:
"which is exactly my point in distinguishing Tbogg (who is making a political point) from the likes of that mean-spirited hag Imus (who made his statement rashly and insensitively with no intent to do anything other than hurt someone)."
Where I come from, when someone makes the point of "distinguishing" two elements under examination, he or she is not equating the two.
A powerful undercurrent of good satire is anger, which can be expressed in terms that others who don't share that anger find bewildering and offensive. What Tbogg was attempting to do was satirize the atmosphere of corruption that clouds the current administration. On the other hand, Imus was just be an old white asshole with no substantive point at all.
You can disagree with Tbogg, but calling him a racist for what is an ambiguous (at best) statement is just a cheap diversion from meeting his political points head-on.
Posted by: jlo at April 13, 2007 09:20 AM (yfw+T)
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jlo:
Is asking you to read something over and think about it actually haughty or treating you or subject matter with disdain, I do not buy it. Try this, forget context and who said what (your original point was comparing caption to Imus comments), or switch them; are you saying that if Imus used some expression equating Rutgers team or certain members as "brown sugar", that would be acceptable to you? It may not have caused the same hue and cry, but is it really acceptable?
In any event, learn to read, or read it again, caption does not point out C. Rice is "black" it labels her "Brown Sugar" (if you refuse to concede that connotative meaning of "Brown Sugar" is racist and replete with negative racial overtones (and the SOLE reason that tbogg used that expression) - it makes it pretty hard to take you seriously). With that in mind, I am not sure who or what you were actually responding to in first paragraph addressed to me.
One final note, I do note beleive that caption has anything to do with rest of tbogg entry (I beleive that first paragraph relates to Wolfowitz and current ethics problems and second paragraph refers to C. Rice and G. Bush), consequently, label says nothing or portrays nothing or is not even remotely about, C. Rice's "accomplishments".
Posted by: Bored at Work at April 13, 2007 03:03 PM (zu8Ks)
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Some of the News That's Fit to Print
Gateway Pundit correctly nails the leading regional and world media outlets for vastly over-exaggerating the actual number of protestors making noise on behalf of Tehran resident Mookie al Sadr in an anti-U.S. protest over the weekend.
A sampling of the media's inaccurate mis-reporting:
- The Associated Press: "Tens of thousands of Shiites..."
- New York Times: "Tens of thousands of protesters loyal to Moktada al-Sadr..."
- Reuters: "Tens of thousands of people waving Iraqi flags..."
- Gulf Daily News: "Hundreds of thousands of chanting Iraqi Shi'ites burned and stamped..."
- Guardian (UK): "Hundreds of thousands of supporters of the radical Shia cleric Moqtada al-Sadr..."
And now, a reality break.
As Bugs Bunny says, "That's all, folks."
Even Duke University football games get better turn-out than the
5,000-7,000 shown in the image above.
I'd be very interested to discover which organizations actually had reporters in Najaf for the protests, if those reporters were bureau reporters or local stringers, and where they came up with their figures. Thinking I'd actually get a response to any of these questions from these news organizations is, of course, absurd. The media doesn't like the idea of accountability.
I'll update this with more detail if information becomes available.
Update: Crap! I screwed up. the photo above was
clearly captioned as being from Baghdad in the MNF-I article , and I did the "assume" thing, and thought that Gateway Pundit captioned the photo correctly (he didn't), and got it completely wrong.
SSG Craig Zentkovich said via email that he shot this picture from the top of the Sheraton hotel in 2005. You have my apologies.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
02:38 PM
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1
"Even Duke University football games get better turnout..."
That's cold, Bob. Cold.
Posted by: David Terrenoire at April 10, 2007 02:59 PM (kxecL)
2
Wow Lex,
The major news outlets never, ever slant something do they? Time for a reality break - take off that tin foil hat and COUNT THE NUMBERS. So I guess we can now rule out any of these groups (and ABC, NBC, and CBS who all reported the same thing) from hosting debates. What's left? The Cartoon Channel?
Posted by: Specter at April 10, 2007 04:45 PM (ybfXM)
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The real story is it was JUST a protest.
Posted by: Purple Avenger at April 10, 2007 06:54 PM (yHGOW)
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It's kind of funny that you knock the MSM for not fully reporting their stories, when you don't bother to report yours. If you read on in the NYT, there was a 'graph with this little tidbit:
"Estimates of the crowd’s size varied wildly. A police commander in Najaf, Brig. Gen. Abdul Karim al-Mayahi, said there were at least half a million people. Colonel Garver said that military reports had estimates of 5,000 to 7,000. Residents and other Iraqi officials said there were tens of thousands, and television images of the rally seemed to support their estimates."
You see, when you actually report stories (as opposed to, say, sitting at home blogging on your computer in the United States), sometimes there's conflicting information. So you highlight that in your article.
There are some other issues you fail to address:
1) When was the photo taken? If that was a photo from early in the day, then couldn’t it be possible that more people came later in the day?
2) How many Iraqis came and left during the day? While there only may be 5,000-7,000 Iraqi protesters in the photo, it’s entirely possible that protesters came and went throughout the day, raising the numbers to the indicated level.
3) What about those side streets that are conveniently cut off in the photo? Were there more protesters down those streets? If you look at the photos featured in the NY Times article, it seems that the protest extended down the side streets.
Sorry if I’m being nitpicky here, but it really bothers me when bloggers make specious claims about war correspondents’ journalism. Just like the troops, our journalists are risking their lives in Iraq. And as someone who knows both troops and journalists working in Iraqi, it kind of pisses me off when people half-thought-out claims about their integrity.
Posted by: I read the whole Thing! at April 10, 2007 07:21 PM (RQlSa)
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the duke LACROSSE team gets bigger crowds.
when you add the 30 million dem lefties rooting for al sadr and assad, then the crowd is really rather big.
Posted by: reliapundit at April 10, 2007 08:45 PM (xz4sV)
6
I read the whole Thing,
Who are you trying to kid. The journalists of which you speak do not go out and report. They sit in a bar in the Green Zone and hire local stringers to go out and gather the news. What a joke.
Posted by: Specter at April 10, 2007 08:50 PM (ybfXM)
7
Specter,
This was all fun and games until you posted that. There have been 62 (last count) journalists killed covering this war. These people go out every day in neighborhoods you wouldn't fly over just so you can sit on your backside and make snarky remarks.
That's just shameful. Christiane Amanpour has bigger huevos than anyone you've ever known, met, or had lunch with.
Posted by: David Terrenoire at April 10, 2007 09:33 PM (tk0b2)
8
And what percentage of that 62 was red-on-red? Inquiring minds want to know. Or are they still considered journalists if they give up their cell phone to trigger the IED?
And as for Christiane, no, don't theenk so, Lucy.
Posted by: SDN at April 10, 2007 09:48 PM (5dXHo)
9
According to the Committee to Protect Journalists, over 99 journalists have been killed while reporting in Iraq. Of the 99 killed 78 were from Iraq and 3 were from other Arab countries. Even if you look at it from the extremely cynical (and incorrect) viewpoint that all of the Iraqi and Arab journalists were insurgents, that still leaves you with 18 western journalists killed while reporting in Iraq.
But I'm sure they just, you know, died from drinking too much in a bar in the Green Zone.
Seriously, I had a friend go over to Iraq as a war correspondent. It was extremely scary. You can trivialize his work (His name is Amit Palay and he worked for WaPo in Iraq for 6 months during mid-2006. You can check out his work on Lexis Nexis, and maybe in the free archives if they go back that far), but I personally think that's sick — especially when it's coming from stay-at-home bloggers. It’s kind of akin to trivializing the work of the U.S. soldiers, although they obviously face a much more direct and daily risk. I don't mean to be rude, but this is personal.
Posted by: I read the whole Thing! at April 11, 2007 12:11 AM (RQlSa)
10
And as for Christiane, no, don't theenk so, Lucy.
Wow, SDN, that's hilarious. Do you take this act on the road?
Or, I should ask, does your mom let you take this act on the road?
Posted by: David Terrenoire at April 11, 2007 06:07 AM (tk0b2)
11
Well, a few more of these mistakes and you will qualify for MSM status.
No, wait. You have to make the mistake and cover it up, not apologize for it, to qualify for MSM status. You have a long way to go.
Posted by: old_dawg at April 11, 2007 08:32 AM (7nc0l)
12
Where's your comment Lex. You dared someone to show you where the big guys bend/lie about there stories. Here it is. Why are you so silent?
Posted by: Specter at April 11, 2007 09:47 AM (ybfXM)
13
Good for you I read the whole Thing. Now tell us, of the 18 western journalists who died, how many were in the original push into Iraq, embedded with the troops? That will pare your numbers down a lot. Now - like I said in my original post, most of our western MSM hires local stringers to go out and gather the news. The information posted here actually shows that. OK - you had a friend that went there, and maybe that friend was different than most reposts (So is Michael Yon BTW), but surely you aren't trying to tell me that all of the hundreds of western journalists "on the ground" in Iraq are out in the streets gathering news every day? Are you serious?
Posted by: Specter at April 11, 2007 09:51 AM (ybfXM)
14
Specter,
Nobody says that all journalists are intrepid reporters out in the country covering stories. However, you painted with a very large brush.
Tell this to Bob Woodruff.
Every day there are reporters risking their lives to get the story in what is, by all accounts, an incredibly dangerous place, especially if you're an American.
To question whether they're putting themselves in enough danger, especially from the comfort of your toasty home, is like questioning whether a combat vet really shed enough blood to earn a Purple Heart.
Oh, wait, the GOP has already done that.
Posted by: David Terrenoire at April 11, 2007 10:26 AM (kxecL)
15
Specter's a bit of a chump minimizing death. Thank you for your words David and RTWT.
Temple
Posted by: Temple Stark at April 11, 2007 10:47 PM (mqk12)
16
Specter,
You don't show much class by taunting me in threads that I'm not involved in. I read these comments for the first time just now.
Now that I have -- oh dear.
Posted by: Lex Steele at April 12, 2007 12:37 AM (0bhUe)
17
Specter,
Where's your comment Lex. You dared someone to show you where the big guys bend/lie about there stories. Here it is. Why are you so silent?
The media bend the truth all right, but to sell ads and to suck up to various people. It's childish to think they support jihad. You want a scapegoat because your perfect war is a disaster.
How rich that it is actually your fellow dead enders who are bending the truth.
Posted by: Lex Steele at April 12, 2007 10:05 AM (0bhUe)
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