Confederate Yankee
April 10, 2007
Democrat Iraq War Grandstanding Angers Veterans' Groups
Both the Veterans of Foreign Wars (VFW) and American Legion have issued statements hammering a Democrat Congress that continues to play games with Iraq War funding.
From the
VFW:
"The funding package contained artificial troop withdrawal deadlines that would ultimately break the morale of our troops in the field and directly jeopardize their safety," said Lisicki, who ascends to national commander in August and was here today to host a meeting of future leaders from the VFW’s 54 departments.
"I am calling on all the members of the United States Senate and House of Representatives to, for now, reserve further debate and provide the funds needed by our troops to prosecute the Global War on Terror," he said, noting that Iraq was clearly the centerpiece of that war on terrorism, and that the House and the Senate funding packages were also loaded with extraneous spending not related to the war on terrorism.
"This isn’t a Democrat or Republican issue. It's about American men and women tasked with fighting a war, and who are now being told their effort and sacrifice doesn't matter because a date on the calendar will send them home whether they've finished the job or not," he said.
Lisicki, Vietnam veteran from Carteret, N.J., said that when Congress reconvenes, they need to approve funding for war-related requirements only, and debate the other issues in separate legislation.
"We ask Congress to never cut or withhold funding for troops deployed or being deployed to a war zone," he said. "They must ensure that those who are sent to war have the best equipment and our strongest support. Give them the tools necessary to complete the mission you sent them on, and do it without further delay."
From the
American Legion:
"This is an attempt to implement a congressional strategy by imposing timelines for the withdrawal of military personnel from combat zones through a "slow bleed" process by eventually reducing military funding," Morin said. "Rather than the President's and General Petraeus's reinforcement policy that is making progress in securing Baghdad."
The American Legion is supportive of many of the other provisions contained in the U.S. Troop Readiness, Veterans' Health, and Iraq Accountability Act, but we strongly believe the President's initial request is not the vehicle for these provisions, especially the specific language that sets congressional deadlines and mandatory troops movements. The other emergency funding recommendations to the FY 2007 budget should be openly addressed in a subsequent appropriations package in a timely manner.
"The men and women of the armed forces in the theater of operation are dependent on this emergency funding to sustain and achieve their military missions," Morin explained. "Members of Congress should not be armchair generals."
"Recognizing our history as a Nation, The American Legion supports the Commander in Chief, the commanders on the front lines, and the men and women serving in harms' way," Morin said. "We entrust Congress to do the right thing in supporting our military men and women who are fighting to protect our values and way of life.
Thank God there was no mandated timetable after the Battle of the Bulge or Iwo Jima. Thank God, there was no mandated withdrawal or imposed exit strategy at Valley Forge or our Country would have lost the American Revolution."
In addition to these veterans groups, Army Chief of Staff Gen. Peter J. Schoomaker, Chief of Naval Operations Adm. Michael G. Mullen, Air Force Chief of Staff Gen. T. Michael Moseley and Marine Commandant Gen. James T. Conway have also
issued a letter imploring the Democrat Congress to quit playing games with the funding of our soldiers:
"Without approval of the supplemental funds in April, the armed services will be forced to take increasingly disruptive measures in order to sustain combat operations," the four general and flag officers wrote in their letter. "The impacts on readiness and quality of life could be profound. We will have to implement spending restrictions and reprogram billions of dollars."
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
11:18 AM
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When I came home in '71, the VFW and American Legion were openly hostile to the vets of my generation. Perhaps that's changed, but my animosity towards them has not.
To hear they've taken a right wing stand is about as surprising as hearing that Rosie O'Donnell is fat.
Posted by: David Terrenoire at April 10, 2007 12:11 PM (kxecL)
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It's only playing games if you don't mean it. Congress really seems to mean for the fighting to end and for troops to come home. It's only the Right that sees that stand as a game. The very idea that someone might want something other than what the Administration wants is, apparently, a foreign one to the president and his advisors.
Posted by: Doc Washboard at April 10, 2007 01:11 PM (nrafD)
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Doc, you really think the fighting stops when we come home?
Posted by: JoeH at April 11, 2007 09:54 PM (VrTMT)
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Wholesale killing of Americans will stop, yes.
Posted by: Doc Washboard at April 11, 2007 11:23 PM (+Rao3)
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The Stories They Don't Tell
As is typically the case for many media organizations in Iraq, CNN this morning chose a lede for their Iraq coverage focusing on the day's body count:
In two separate incidents, bombers in Iraq targeted a college district in Baghdad and a police recruiting center in Diyala province killing at least 15 people on Tuesday, local authorities told CNN.
Meanwhile, coalition forces pounded insurgent targets across Iraq on Tuesday, the military said. They launched raids in Anbar, in the west of the country, and Baghdad and continued their Operation Black Eagle push that began last week against Shiite militias in the southern city of Diwaniya.
That effort so far has killed 14 people and wounded 61 others, among them Shiite militia members, an Interior Ministry official told CNN.
This is hardly surprising. Body counts provide concrete numbers, even if those numbers don't tell the entire story of a war that they and other media outlets determined long ago was already lost. Sadly, this reliance on body counts tells only a fraction of the story of the events taking place in Iraq.
Five paragraphs into the story, we get a hint as to another part of the story of the Iraq War, one that they chose not to cover in detail.
Dressed in a black abaya -- a traditional Muslim robe, usually black in color, covering the body from head to toe -- the woman detonated her explosives belt in a crowd of about 200 police recruits, police and hospital officials told the Associated Press.
The police recruiting center targeted by this suicide bomber in Muqdadiya is located in the Diyala province, where insurgents have fled from security operations in Baghdad.
Iraqi police typically suffer far greater casualties than either Iraqi or American military units, and yet two hundred Iraqis were lined up to join.
Joining the Iraqi police is the most dangerous occupation in Iraq, with the IP suffering greater casualties day in and day out than either the American or Iraqi militaries. Iraqis who join the police not only take immense personal risks; their families are often targeted for retaliation by terrorists as well. It is far safer to remain civilian and avoid these risks... and yet they join, not just in Diyala, but in Ramadi, Karbala, Baghdad, and Fallujah.
Why do they join?
The answers will certainly vary from recruit to recruit, from province to province and from city to village, but the fact remains that they continue to join the most dangerous job in Iraq in large numbers.
It would be nice for CNN, the Associated Press, and other news outlets to spend some time asking these recruits why they take such risks not only with their own lives, but with the lives of their families.
Are they militiamen looking to infiltrate the police? Are they simply tired of the random violence that threatens their families and hoping to stop it? Are they merely looking for work, any work, no matter how dangerous that work may be? Do they actually think that joining the police might help bring stability to their war-torn cities and towns?
We do not know.
It is far easier for the media to ask the simple questions of who died where, and provide copy about orchestrated protests, or produce photos of suffering and death. "If it bleeds, it leads," has been, and continues to be, the mantra of a news media interested in covering only the obvious and superficial sotires of the day.
The deeper, inner struggles, the
jihad of ordinary Iraqis who purposefully take extraordinary risks, goes unremarked upon... and still they come by tens and hundreds, from across Iraq. They join the police and don uniforms, knowing that doing so makes them certain targets.
I'd like to know why, but no one seems interested in telling their stories.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
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Unfortunately, this is common across the board. Most news outlets cover events, not ideas. Why? Because it's easier and cheaper.
That's why we need to read books.
Posted by: David Terrenoire at April 10, 2007 10:18 AM (kxecL)
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Our Would-Be Fearless Democratic Leaders Run Away From... A Television Network?
It seems that two more Democrats have fled the unspeakable horrors of a debate on Fox News.
I'm not sure that re-establishing that they will "bravely run away" at the first sign of a differing thought is the message they will want to keep reinforcing, is it?
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
12:11 AM
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It's the right thing to do. Fox isn't a legitimate news source. The make things up and bend the truth repeatedly and intentionally. Look at these screen captures from Fox. They are lies.
Obama and Edwards would validate Fox by participating in the debate.
Posted by: Lex Steele at April 10, 2007 01:07 AM (0bhUe)
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In order... he was aquitted of lying to the FBI; he was found guilty on 4 of 5 counts, but no crime was ever proven because we still don't know if the female's status was secret; how is the phrase "hunting accident controversy; how is VP... feeling?" a lie? A question, by definition, is not a lie; it's a non-scientific poll, where's your proof of lying; and again; another question; Iraq less violent than DC was a study based on the entire country vs DC-- and it is more peaceful, although Bagdad is less peaceful than DC; another question; ooooh, a mistype, I'm so worried; a statement by a fellow; and two more questions.
You really need to figure out what "lie" means.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/lie
Posted by: Foxfier at April 10, 2007 01:17 AM (J7GMo)
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Foxfier:
You really need to figure out what "lie" means.
Hardly. You need to re-read the page you own linked to:
2. something intended or serving to convey a false impression;
Foxfier: he was aquitted of lying to the FBI; he was found guilty on 4 of 5 counts
That's trying to convey a false impression all right. The big news was not that Libby was found "not guilty" of one crime, but that he was found guilty of four.
but no crime was ever proven because we still don't know if the female's status was secret
Libby was convicted of perjury actually. Anyway, Plame was covert all right. Henry Waxman vetted some questions with the director of the CIA in preparation for a congressional hearing, and he accepted the statement that she was covert.
how is the phrase "hunting accident controversy; how is VP... feeling?" a lie?
It promotes a false sense that Cheney's feelings are the important thing, not the fact that he shot someone or the health of the victim.
A question, by definition, is not a lie
Wrong, see the definition of 'lie' to which you linked but didn't read or couldn't understand.
"Civil War in Iraq: Made up by the Media?" is an attempt to convey a false impression, so yes it is a lie, at least how I was raised.
I notice that you didn't address the fact that Fox called Mark Foley a Democrat. Do you consider that a lie or not?
You tried to refute an artificially narrow version of my argument, namely that Fox didn't strictly speaking lie. You failed even to do that.
Posted by: Lex Steele at April 10, 2007 02:01 AM (0bhUe)
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Fox isn't a legitimate news source.
Does this mean a democrat president would pull the press credentials for Fox in the Whitehouse press pool?
Posted by: Purple Avenger at April 10, 2007 05:25 AM (XFDY6)
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Either the candidates don't want to answer tough questions on camera or they don't want to answer tough questions on a network with such a large viewing audience.
For being such a crummy network they sure kick butt in the ratings...odd that.
Posted by: markm at April 10, 2007 06:35 AM (hVOTO)
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Lex, I've heard you and countless other liberals claim that Fox News isn't a "legitimate" news source, but merely repeating that canard in your echo chamber doesn't make it true. By what objective measure do you make that claim?
Certainly, screen captures taken out of context do not show truth, as I can produce similar captures from any news outlet that shows bias or inaccurate reporting equaling or surpassing that of those chosen. What your carefully chosen link shows is simply a cherry-picked selection of images, sans context, that shows what you desire to be "true enough" to support your contention.
The simple fact of the matter is that Fox News is a legitimate news source by any objective measure, and one that the Groseclose/Milyo study, A Measure of Media Bias found to be one of the most objective in their news reporting.
Unlike CNN, Fox News has never covered up torture for more than a decade to maintain a field office inside a brutal dictatorship, nor have they run terrorist propaganda as news. Unlike CBS, they have never tried to peddle fake documents in a failed attempt to influence an election. Unlike the Associated Press, they have never used faked sources (Jamil Gulaim Innad XX XXXXXXX, aka "Jamil Hussein." Heard from him since we "outed" him? didn't think so.), nor bluntly lied about a general said to support their case as did Steven R. Hurst's January article that was directly disputed by the General himself. I can go on and on, if you so desire, but I don't think you will.
Obama, Hillary, and Edwards don't validate Fox News; their huge viewership does that. What they did validate is that the screaming radicals of the far left end of the Democratic party scares them far more does than does the Congressional Black Caucus Institute (Democrats all), the group actually holding the debate on Fox.
Why do Democrats hate black people, Lex? I jest, of course.
No, what pulling out of the Congressional Black Caucus Institute/Fox News debate shows is that these Democrat presidential candidates aren't concerned over bias or "legitimacy" that a debate would bring to a very legitimate (and very successful) news source, but instead, betrays a pandering fear of nutroots radicals.
It shows that they are easily cowed by their fringe supporters, and provides us with a glimpse into their mettle. Candidates who are so easily influenced and bullied by a such a sizable minority of their constituency stand little chance of developing a spine once elected. What Edwards, Obama, and Clinton have shown is that they are easily influenced followers, and not leaders.
We need leaders in this country, regardless of political party, and the three Democratic front-runners are showing they are incapable of leadership, a fact only born out by their undistinguished voting records as senators. I thought and still think the other Democrats running have no chance of winning, but at least they do occasionally show signs of character, values, and leadership, even if I disagree with those values and where they would lead.
Hillary, Obama, and Edwards have only shown they will pander to any group that they think will provide them with a temporary advantage. That isn't leadership, and the moderates who typically decide Presidential elections will notice the craven triangulation toward the radical base, and hopefully they will remember it when the successful candidate angles for the middle after winning the primary, leaving a shrieking, wailing wall of netroots,quivering in rage at being "betrayed."
They shouldn't be surprised, nor upset (though they will be). They'll only be getting precisely what they ordered.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at April 10, 2007 07:48 AM (9y6qg)
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Nice rebuttal CY. Much better than what I was thinkin'.
Posted by: Specter at April 10, 2007 10:03 AM (ybfXM)
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Bob,
I agree with everything you said except that Fox News ratings are anything but huge. It's number one in cable news, but miniscule compared to the networks.
Ratings for everyone are slipping, even Fox News, but even Bill O'Reilly, Fox's rating champ, still draws only about 2.5 million viewers compared to networks' 20 million. And when you look at the demographics, all broadcast news skews heavily to people over 54. Not exactly prime ad markets.
Aside from that, I agree the candidates should man up and show up.
Posted by: David Terrenoire at April 10, 2007 10:31 AM (kxecL)
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CY:
By what objective measure do you make that claim?
See here for one such study: "Those who primarily watch Fox News are significantly more likely to have misperceptions, while those who primarily listen to NPR or watch PBS are significantly less likely."
Certainly, screen captures taken out of context do not show truth,
Pshaw. There is no context in which Libby's "not guilty" or Mark Foley is a Democrat or etc.
as I can produce similar captures from any news outlet that shows bias or inaccurate reporting equaling or surpassing that of those chosen.
First, you admitted that Fox is biased. Second, I don't believe you can produce such captures. Go ahead and do it then. Don't bring up the doctored photos of Lebanon. That was a the work on one photographer.
What your carefully chosen link shows is simply a cherry-picked selection of images, sans context
Again, these are intentional lies no matter the context. How is it cherry picking to assemble a pack of lies?
one that the Groseclose/Milyo study, A Measure of Media Bias found to be one of the most objective in their news reporting.
I looked this over, and it seems to cover just one show on Fox, a 24 hour network.
CNN ... covered up torture for more than a decade to maintain a field office inside a brutal dictatorship
That's terrible if it's true. I won't defend CNN.
Nor have [CNN] run terrorist propaganda as news.
Baloney. Give me one example. CNN Time Warner is a huge corporation who has every interest to support the powers that be in the US, and zero reasons to embrace jihad.
Unlike CBS, they have never tried to peddle fake documents in a failed attempt to influence an election.
That was embarassing. I don't care for CBS much either. However, like the AP doctored photos, this is an error clearly traceable to one man, not the entire network.
I followed you link regarding Jamil Hussein. It's Pajamas Media quoting... you. What more need be said?
Obama, Hillary, and Edwards don't validate Fox News;
Sure they would if they appeared on it.
their huge viewership does that.
Not really. Nearly half of the people in the US don't believe in evolution, but that doesn't make it false.
what pulling out of the ... debate shows is that these Democrat presidential candidates aren't concerned over bias or "legitimacy"... but instead betrays a pandering fear of nutroots radicals.
You called Fox viewers nutroots radicals. And why would they be scared? 50% of US citizens identify as Dems now, as opposed to 35% that identify as Repubs. Are they afraid of pro-abortion, incestuous Giuliani? Straight Talk McCain? Waffles Romney? Come on.
It shows that they are easily cowed by their fringe supporters, and provides us with a glimpse into their mettle. Candidates who are so easily influenced and bullied by a such a sizable minority of their constituency stand little chance of developing a spine once elected. What Edwards, Obama, and Clinton have shown is that they are easily influenced followers, and not leaders.
What drivel.
Appearing on a news network endorses that network. You're just pretending like you don't understand this.
Posted by: Lex Steele at April 10, 2007 11:08 AM (0bhUe)
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David T: This is a network which called Mark Foley a Democrat after he was determined to be a sex predator. It announced "Libby found not guilty." Do you deny that the Dem nominees would validate Fox by debating on it? Why not have the debate on a more neutral network? I don't understand your reasoning.
Posted by: Lex Steele at April 10, 2007 11:32 AM (0bhUe)
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Lex,
They should show up for much the same reasons I come here.
1. It's an opportunity to address issues with people you wouldn't reach otherwise.
2. Unless Fox is given edit control, each candidate's words will be theirs, in their entirety.
3. We shouldn't pick and choose what is safe, like Dick Cheney who is reduced to going on Limbaugh's show because he knows he'll get pitched softballs.
4. These candidatews want to be president of all Americans, even those who think Fox News is real news.
5. This makes the candidates look weak and petty, like Bush did with his cleansed town hall meetings. It wasn't right for our CINC to look so cowardly, and it's not right for any future CINC to appear the same.
Posted by: David Terrenoire at April 10, 2007 12:00 PM (kxecL)
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He can't handle being in front of a reporter but still wants the job as president?
That certainly fills me with confidence.
Posted by: Mikey NTH at April 10, 2007 12:36 PM (O9Cc8)
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Lex, I'm somewhat depressed but not surprised by your avoidance of reality.
The PIPA-sponsored link you cite is a press release of a push poll that addresses three specific questions asked in 2003. This study was so biased itself that PIPA was forced to issue the following statement:
"The findings were not meant to and cannot be used as a basis for making broad judgments about the general accuracy of the reporting of various networks or the general accuracy of the beliefs of those who get their news from those networks. Only a substantially more comprehensive study could undertake such broad research questions."
Ouch.
Libby's "not Guilty and Foley's "Democrat" labeling lasted precisely how long, Lex? Minutes on both counts. These are mistakes, not biases. You don't see me hammering other networks for similar mistakes in this thread, because all of them have made them. If you want them however, you can look at the CNN video where they flashed an "X" over VP Cheney's face, which later led to a CNN staffer being fired. These are mistakes, not biases. Of course, if you want biases, we've got that covered as well. And don't forget excuse-making for terrorists.
You don't believe other networks are guilty of biased reporting?
The November 2006 Hurriyah massacre-that-wasn't is a prime example. AP claimed that 4 mosques were "burned and blew up," yet one of their own reporters (Sally Busbee) stated the only damage at one of these mosques was a broken window, and another, where AP claimed 18 people died in an "inferno", was never burned at all. We have pictures taken during a worship service from inside that mosque the next day showing no fire damage at all.
Of the 24 people AP claimed died, they have been unable to produce a single body, or relative claiming that someone died, and the Washington Post and NY Times both provided conflicting accounts. That you would rather believe the AP's clearly bogus account of events that day and the validity of the source AP called Jamil Hussein is your issue, not mine. I obtained a direct quote from the general himself stating AP made up the facts Steven R. Hurst attributed to him. I'm sorry I have to quote myself on this, but I did take the lead in this story, and AP, to this very day, refuses to address the General's statement. They did completely change their policies on how they use sources after I embarrassed them. I'll take that as an admission of guilt, and you will never hear from Jamil Hussein again as a result.
And Lex, if you think the doctored of photos of Lebanon can be attributed to one photographer, you're simply daft.
Adnan Hajj faked two photos, but literally dozens of staged photos were also detected, from the BBC placing a boy's life at risk to pose him beside a live bomb, to photographers exploiting the wounded, Hezbollah members directing the media in multiple takes of the dead, moving debris to stage other photos with the dead, moving objects to create scenes to photograph. These are just some of the "fauxtography" examples I came across; the number of faked or staged photos runs literally into the dozens, and no less than CNN pretty boy Anderson Cooper admitted to how carefully stage-managed the war Hezbollah allowed them to show really was.
And yes, CNN's own Eason Jordan admitted that they covered up Saddam's savagery from 1990-2003 to maintain a news bureau in Baghdad. That didn’t get him fired. Twice claiming that the U.S. military was targeting journalists—another un-supported, biased pronouncement—eventually led to him being pressured out of his job (as a side note, I get along with Eason rather well in our email correspondence, and hope he has learned from the past).
And Lex, CNN did run an insurgent propaganda video as a news story. I'd add that the insurgents delivered the propaganda video to CNN via Michael Ware. Perhaps you've heard of him.
By the way, I see that as two links to CNN reporters serving up propaganda as news, if you, like most rational people, find the link above to Jamie McIntyre's attempt to save face for the technical weapons incompetence of terrorist leader Zarqawi is propaganda. At least these guys weren't captured with al Qaeda terrorists with bomb residue on their hands like AP's Pulitzer-prize winner, Bilal Hussein. He’s still in an Iraqi jail, where he belongs.
You're also dishonest when you try to pin Rathergate on Rather alone. Mary Mapes was behind it and was also fired, and as for Rather himself, he still maintains the lie to be "absolutely true."
Nor did I call Fox viewers "nutroots radicals." I don' t know if you simply have comprehension problems or if you are just being dishonest, but I was clearing stating that Obama/Edwards/Clinton were afraid of upsetting the "nutroots," which everyone in the political blogosphere knows are far left liberals they are pandering to by dropping out of the debate. I was not referring to Fox viewers, at all.
50% of Americans may call themselves Democrats, but only 15%-20% of the electorate identify as liberals.
Appearing on a news network does not endorse that network... frankly, that is just stupid. That is a very new invention of liberals seeking to constrain "acceptable" behavior. Well, it isn’t that new. Stalin would certainly approve.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at April 10, 2007 01:23 PM (9y6qg)
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The PIPA-sponsored link you cite is a press release of a push poll that addresses three specific questions asked in 2003. This study was so biased itself that PIPA was forced to issue the following statement...
The Wikipedia page you linked admits to controversy. If PIPA ever had this disclaimer on their website, it's not there now. Anyway, it's just disclaimer. The numbers speak for themselves: Fox viewers are indeed more likely to believe things that are wrong about Iraq.
Libby's "not Guilty and Foley's "Democrat" labeling lasted precisely how long, Lex? Minutes on both counts. These are mistakes, not biases.
I say you're making that up. Show me the retractions. This would be incompetence if it were accidental.
You don't believe other networks are guilty of biased reporting?
I didn't say that. However, lots of what you see as bias is actually mainstream. For instance in another thread you just complained that it's biased to disclose body counts. Most of us regard that as crucial.
I did take the lead in this [Jamil Hussein] story
That's one way to describe it anyway.
The examples of photo bias you submitted are not pro-terrorist bias, they are biased towards generating buzz. That's bad, but not pro-jihad.
The CNN video you linked to in no way promotes terrorism. There is no way anyone is going to watch that and sympathize with the jihadists. You're being paranoid. It's important to see the other side in a debate. Presenting the other side is not evidence of terrorist sympathies.
Of the 24 people AP claimed died...
Look, even if AP intentionally exaggerated the body count, you shouldn't infer that the AP is pro-terrorist. They're just trying to make a buck. Why on earth would any sane person in the US be pro-jihadist, much less a huge corporation. Jihadists want to kill or convert us. You are on a nonstop witch hunt for liberalism and terrorist sympathizers.
Okay, Mary Mapes and Dan Rather. What, now it's a conspiracy?
Appearing on a news network does not endorse that network... frankly, that is just stupid.
Sure it does. If Bush granted an interview to Alternet, it would legitimize Alternet. There's nothing debatable about this.
Find me one Stalin fan.
Posted by: Lex Steele at April 10, 2007 02:46 PM (0bhUe)
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2. something intended or serving to convey a false impression;
Which means that you must prove that they give a faulse impression. Or you are the liar.
Posted by: Foxfier at April 10, 2007 02:59 PM (J7GMo)
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Foxfier: Fox called Republican sex predator Mark Foley a Democrat. Does that give a faulse impression or not?
Posted by: Lex Steele at April 10, 2007 09:12 PM (0bhUe)
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Given the fact that Democrats re-elect confessed sex offenders like Gerry Studds, I'd say not.
Posted by: SDN at April 10, 2007 09:55 PM (5dXHo)
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Whoot, a mistype. Like I said and you ignored-- twice now? I am *so* worried about the morality of that.
That reminds me, perjury is the willful giving of false testimony under oath or affirmation, before a competent tribunal, upon a point material to a legal inquiry.
No crime proven-- and the very existance of the crime removed from consideration-- and you've got a straw house.
By your definition, there aren't any legit news outlets, as they've all had mistypes.
Posted by: Foxfier at April 10, 2007 10:46 PM (J7GMo)
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Seeing as you're obcessed with it.... a few moments of google brought me this:
http://www.cjrdaily.org/politics/theres_no_conspiracy_behind_an.php
Hey! The screen said D, the actual SPEACH said Republican. Mebbie you should have the sound on for those screen shots....
Or is Fox News ritually unclean?
Posted by: Foxfier at April 10, 2007 10:52 PM (J7GMo)
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April 09, 2007
Imus: An Appropriate Response
Radio talk show host Don Imus got himself in a world of trouble for referring to female basketball players at Rutgers University as "nappy headed ho's" last week, a comment still being discussed today, in the New York Times, on the Imus show itself, and elsewhere.
Predictably, there are those calling for Imus to be fired for the comments, and perhaps their argument would have some merit in a perfect world, but ours is not a perfect world. Should Imus get fired for this incident, a bidding war for his services would likely soon erupt, and Imus might very well profit from his transgressions, not learn from them.
There is another option, however, that would hit Imus on a more personal level, and would potentially remind him that the words he chooses to use in the future may have repercussions.
The City of New York, where Imus works and maintains a residence, issues "may issue" concealed carry licenses, allowing the police to determine who is allowed to have a concealed handgun. This is according the
Sullivan Act, and in practice, it means that very, very few permits are issued.
Don Imus has a well-known history of alcohol and cocaine abuse in his past, and while he claims to have been clean for many years, his substance abuse history is certainly enough reason to deny him a permit even in "shall issue" areas. It is clearly his fame, and fame alone, that has afforded him the privilege to carry a gun in New York City.
It only seems fitting that his infamy caused him to be stripped of this privilege as well.
There is very little reason to think that Don Imus has any greater need to carry a concealed weapon in New York than anyone else, and there are some very good reasons that should have precluded him from ever getting a permit at all. By stripping Imus of his privilege and the false sense of security that comes with it, it might serve to remind Imus that he is not a law unto himself, and it may remind him in the future that the words he chooses to use may place him in harm's way.
If carrying a gun can give some people a false sense of invulnerability, then stripping someone that has (undeservedly) had that privilege may serve to bring them down to earth. Let him face the world without a Glock to lend bravado to his racism, misogyny, and homophobia. I think a disarmed Imus would prove to be a defanged one as well, and one less inclined to attack others with such reckless abandon.
Update: Double-secret probation?
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
05:10 PM
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Huh? Are you saying government ought to bestow certain privileges on people based on whether they toe the company line? And are you suggesting Imus said what he did because he has a permit to carry a gun?
Posted by: steve sturm at April 09, 2007 05:34 PM (XBWtm)
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I think what CY's saying is that maybe Imus would mind his Ps and Qs a bit more if he weren't walking around strapped, which he really ought not be doing anyway, because he's got a history of substance abuse.
Is not condoning bigotry a "company line"?
I guess I agree with CY on this one but I don't agree with CY on this one. I'd like to see jackasses like this off the air, but it's not up to the government to censure Imus, it's up to the listeners. People will support him if they will, which is where the problem lies -- not with the government. And while it makes me uncomfortable to know that people like this are carrying a gun, I don't think it's the gun that is giving him the false sense of security to say stuff like this, it's probably a poor upbringing.
Posted by: paully at April 09, 2007 05:48 PM (75YCX)
3
yeah, not condoning bigotry is toeing the company line, inasmuch as the government is bestowing favors to people based on whether they think the way government wants them to. put another way, if it isn't up to the government to censure Imus, then why is it okay for the government to deny him a gun permit based on what he said?
Posted by: steve sturm at April 09, 2007 06:46 PM (XBWtm)
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Am I saying I believe we should deny Imus the privilege of having his CCW based upon what he said?
Yeah, I guess that is what I said, isn't it?
I guess I'm guilty of sending a bad message here (perhaps in fairness I should be censored), but as Imus shouldn't have a CCW to begin with based upon his substance abuse history, I was thinking it was a prefect way of righting two wrongs with one long-deserved solution.
My personal thoughts on CCW are in favor of "shall issue" permits, but even in most "shall issue" states, Imus would not be allowed to have a CCW based upon past alcohol and drug use.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at April 09, 2007 07:18 PM (HcgFD)
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I guess the same rules apply to you too CY -- if people don't like what you have to say, they don't have to be a part of your audience -- something I'm sure you're well aware of.
For what it's worth, I kind've agree that [substance abuse aside] giving a guy like Imus a CCW is asking for trouble. Being able to draw down legally on someone who was threatening him based on his hateful rhetoric would boost his ratings, and he knows it. That seems like a pretty dangerous game.
Posted by: paully at April 09, 2007 07:58 PM (75YCX)
6
Trackbacked by The Thunder Run - Web Reconnaissance for 04/10/2007
A short recon of what’s out there that might draw your attention.
Posted by: David M at April 10, 2007 09:09 AM (6+obf)
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What Imus said is something that is say and celebrate in hundred of rap and pop song. He did nothing wrong. The suspension was a cop out from corporate hq who fear "black" boycott. I think they give black too much credit and power. But Imus is under they employment so he have to take the lump. But from a personal viewpoint, the call a ho for a ho.
Posted by: Anh at April 10, 2007 09:43 AM (ScKRZ)
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I am sorry. Perhaps something is wrong with me but for the life of me I can not understand what Imus did wrong. If you listen to the dialog of the event, the phrase he used is meant to be funny and in no way is racist. I would not have said this but would define Imus' use of the term or any other as that is his job. He is supposed to be funny. Sometimes he isn't and sometimes he is. But the nature of his dialog is such that to restrict him is to lessen his ability to talk in a manner that is supposed to be relaxed and entertaining. What needs to happen is that blacks need to mature. Simply because someone says something a bit off does not make them racist or hateful. The women on this basketball team are not "ladies". As Imus was trying to say, they look tough, play tough and dirty. I have watched particularly back teams play basketball and it is not anything like whites playing. It is mean and they usually try to inflict injury. These girls were likewise tatooed and not very pleasant to observe. As to working to get through college. That is a joke. We all know that players get priviledge and are often passed along in their education.
I would think that what you need to look at is why is Imus being singled out for this type of treatment. Who is to gain. I would vote that Hillary is behind the push as he is an out spoken critic of that witch.
Posted by: David Caskey at April 10, 2007 10:07 AM (G5i3t)
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Black players play to hurt and whites don't? what? Ever heard of kevin Mchale? You guys should really read your comments before posting. Those girls are not "nappy headed ho's" , and they do not qualify as public figures either. A nice slander suit might shut his fat mouth.
Posted by: luther at April 10, 2007 10:22 AM (uV3yK)
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Hmmm, interesting approach. A lot of pinheads have falsely defended the KKK-Man with a First Amendment argument. Yours is the first Second Amendment argument--one would not feel so emboldened to speak one's mind, were one not able to defend one's self with deadly force.
Quite a provocative statement. If nothing else, having an issue of Imus' CCW made publicly would add to the stigma of his inability to reign in his sophomoric hijinks.
Posted by: Jimmm at April 10, 2007 10:23 AM (Rywie)
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Bob,
This is clever and entertaining, and I suspect somewhat tongue-in-cheek. But I don't know if Imus was ever convicted or if he's just outed himself. If he has not been convicted then taking away his concealed-carry would be the worst kind of gun control.
And yes, I am a strong 2nd Amendment liberal.
Hoo-uh.
Posted by: David Terrenoire at April 10, 2007 12:06 PM (kxecL)
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David,
Imus has admitted past additions to alcohol and drugs, and this would seem to come within a lawyer's argument of keeping him from even purchasing a firearm (see ATF form 4473, question 12 e.), if you buy the argument of "once an addict, always an addict." Knowing his history, I would refuse to sell him a firearm,and would have every legal right to deny such a sale.
CCW goes beyond the scope of the 2nd amendment, and states have the right to more stringently enforce who can carry upon their person a concealed weapon. I strongly doubt that a former drug addict and alcoholic would be permitted a CCW in even most "shall issue" states, and were it not for his celebrity status, he would assuredly not have the right to carry in NYC, with it's draconian "may issue" history.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at April 10, 2007 01:39 PM (9y6qg)
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...this would seem to come within a lawyer's argument of keeping him from even purchasing a firearm (see ATF form 4473, question 12 e.)
I wasn't aware of that, Bob. Thanks. You learn something new every day.
But I was only half serious, as I imagine you were with this post.
Posted by: David Terrenoire at April 10, 2007 01:44 PM (kxecL)
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And Bob,
I hope you take this as a compliment. I've bookmarked this page because I'm truly enjoying your posts. I hope you don't think my comments are anything but sincere even when I disagree.
Posted by: David Terrenoire at April 10, 2007 01:49 PM (kxecL)
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I might be slightly more than half-serious, but only because I take gun safety very seriously. I'm very leary of giving admitted addicts firearms, whether they claim to be sober now, or not...
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at April 10, 2007 02:02 PM (9y6qg)
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he could just hire a body guard, or he already does..
a good test is whether he would say it to thier faces
Posted by: judson at April 10, 2007 02:26 PM (msNKe)
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Did someone just spill a can of stupidity???
A man said something that many found offensive while their children were paying to hear rap artists(??)to say similar or worse.
As the stupidity washes over you, you decide the appropriate response is for the government to step in and revoke a CCW permit. God, what if he didn't have one; could we get his drivers license??
Hey, electric companies are public utilities we could have his electricity cut off. Maybe the housing authority could throw him out.
By the way, I don't like what your saying so what are you going to pay. Maybe "we the Government" should take away your freedom.
Oh rats, stupid constitution says you can say what you want and so can the other side. Rotten deal. Its better when you can back up your argument with the coercion of law.
Posted by: RFYoung at April 10, 2007 03:11 PM (WqZCc)
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I have watched particularly back teams play basketball and it is not anything like whites playing. It is mean and they usually try to inflict injury.
That's some pretty potent stupid right there. My days of playing pick up basketball in NYC playgrounds are over but when I showed up to play I needed to foul all the time to be competitive with the black guys. I was made to understood that this made me typical for a white guy. You get respect by having skills and nobody wants to be know as a hacker.
Back to the point of the post though, I'd be all for disarming Imus and all other recovering alcoholics and drug addicts out there but does this mean Bush doesn't get to pack heat when he leaves office?
Posted by: Lawnguylander at April 10, 2007 04:59 PM (00ME/)
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Hmmmm, I wonder what other American celebrity has a past history of alcohol and cocaine abuse that goes terminally unmentionned on this site? Ah yes, right, I remember, it's Shrub, the dimwit president of the united states of 'merica.
Posted by: Jacques at April 11, 2007 12:42 PM (Hrf+D)
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Hey Caskey, you sniveling twit, I had one of the Rutgers players in class. She was an excellent student. I don't coddle athletes. I have not time for that b.s.
And if you cannot understand why what he said was racist and, particularly, sexist, well, you've only proved the point...
Posted by: truthout at April 12, 2007 01:52 AM (io8dG)
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get over it a mistake is just that. what about duke team u dont even her the acuser name they spend long time in jail, ther blameing prosucter double stand ill say;
Posted by: bill at April 12, 2007 10:45 AM (A5s0y)
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This is something that all must know in a time that racial tensions occur. You have no one to blame but yourself, when making comments about something you know absolutely nothing about. All the years that black people have existed and manage to survive all the atrocities that have fallen on us based on the color of our skin. I leave you with this:
Imus be happy to be nappy, but I have never been nor will ever be anybodies ho. Now Imus be in the crappy after talking about who's nappy.
Posted by: Bernice at April 12, 2007 05:25 PM (XVL2z)
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The Agony of Queen Elizabeth
Poor Elizabeth Edwards.
I'm quite certain that I, like Mrs. Edwards, wouldn't feel comfortable living with a neighbor who is quick to
pull a firearm on trespassers. That is just one of many reasons why I wouldn't live anywhere near a contemporary of hers,
Paul Hackett.
But the questionable (and perhaps illegal) use of a firearm by Edward's neighbor seems to be only part of her gripe against him.
Edwards seems far more concerned that Monty Johnson, a "rabid, rabid Republican," refuses to clean up his "slummy" property just to spite her lavish 28,000 square-foot mansion.
How terribly
gauche of him.
It seems that it is Queen Elizabeth's opinion that nearby property owners have a duty to suitably improve the aesthetic appeal of the neighborhood now that she has graced them with her presence. That Johnson claims to be a working man with a limited income to spend on property improvements doesn’t seem a worthwhile excuse.
Perhaps the lack of proper deference by their neighbors is the reason that the other home for the Edwards family is a million-dollar beach house on
private island, a gated community that won't allow blue collar riff raff like Monty Johnson to spoil the ocean views.
John and Elizabeth Edwards talk about two Americas. It's too bad they don't have enough room for working class people in either one of them.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
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Betcha Monty listens to Fox News too.
Posted by: Zhombre at April 09, 2007 02:26 PM (v72Rn)
2
If the workers were on his property, it is probably legal for him to be carrying a gun when confronting them. Maybe not the wisest move, and certainly not what I'd do if they were properly uniformed and identifiable, but probably completely legal.
Posted by: old_daawg at April 09, 2007 02:44 PM (7nc0l)
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If Johnson's property was like that when the Edwards bought thier's, they have no room to complain.
Posted by: MikeM at April 09, 2007 04:47 PM (myTC8)
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Absolutely great, Bob.
Sounds to me the Edwards moved-in and trashed a perfectly good neighborhood - it does happen, I've done it. Monty Johnson must be one pissed-off neighbor.
Posted by: Eg at April 09, 2007 04:54 PM (6+A8I)
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I own a gun and I'm trained to use it. But I have to say that if I moved into a neighborhood with small children and found out my neighbor was confronting workers with a gun, I'd be a little wary of the dude, too. Maybe not as nancy as Ms. Edwards, but still.
As for Paul Hackett, what he did may be against the law, but I doubt if there's a jury in southwestern Ohio that would convict him. The men he held for the police rammed a truck into his [expletive] fence. Hackett is a public figure and has made enemies because of his politics so he couldn't be sure what sort of whack jobs were at the gate. He was defending his family according to this story. I say good for him.
Personally, I prefer a Remington 870, but that's a quibble.
Posted by: David Terrenoire at April 10, 2007 12:49 PM (kxecL)
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"If the workers were on his property, it is probably legal for him to be carrying a gun when confronting them. Maybe not the wisest move, and certainly not what I'd do if they were properly uniformed and identifiable, but probably completely legal."
Properly uniformed surveyors? Hmmm, I've been a surveyor for 26 yrs. and I've never worn a uniform. If they were decent folk, Queen Liz and 'The Hairdo' would have sought out their neighbor and exchanged phone numbers when they started building. Then they could have given him a call to let him know that a crew might need to access his property. THEN, the crew should have knocked on his door and let him know they were there. Common courtesy. Meeting tresspassing strangers on a rural property with a gun is normal and prudent.
Posted by: Tim H at April 11, 2007 07:21 PM (39hgF)
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April 07, 2007
What's Next, Reid and bin Laden?
From the murderous dictators of terrorist-sponsoring regimes to Islamist leaders themselves:
A top U.S. Democratic congressman met a leader of Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak's most powerful rival, the outlawed Muslim Brotherhood, U.S. officials and the Islamist group said Saturday.
Visiting House Majority Leader Steny Hoyer met with the head of the Muslim Brotherhood's parliamentary bloc, Mohammed Saad el-Katatni, twice on Thursday -- once at the parliament building and then at the home of the U.S. ambassador to Egypt, said Brotherhood spokesman Hamdi Hassan.
Most of you are probably not that familiar with el-Katatni, who believes in restoring the caliphate and instituting fundementalist sharia law, but you are certainly more familiar with another Muslim Brotherhood alumnus named
Ayman al-Zawahiri, Osama bin Laden's cavemate.
Nice folks the Democrat leadership is spending time with these days.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
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and then at the home of the U.S. ambassador to Egypt
Another question is why the US ambassador to Egypt feels he needs to entertain Muslim Brotherhood honchos at the embassy and precisely how that sort of thing "fits" into our foreign policy.
Posted by: Purple Avenger at April 08, 2007 07:04 AM (22lCG)
2
Trackbacked by The Thunder Run - Web Reconnaissance for 04/09/2007
A short recon of what’s out there that might draw your attention.
Posted by: David M at April 09, 2007 09:54 AM (kNjJk)
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Edwards Turns Tail and Runs... Again
How exceedingly brave:
Democratic presidential candidate John Edwards on Friday pulled out of a second debate co-hosted by Fox News Channel, saying the cable network has a conservative slant.
The Edwards campaign said it will not attend the September 23 debate in Detroit hosted by Fox News and the Congressional Black Caucus Institute, but officials added that Edwards is "looking forward" to a different debate hosted by the institute and CNN in South Carolina in January 2008.
"We believe there's just no reason for Democrats to give Fox a platform to advance the right-wing agenda while pretending they're objective," said Jonathan Prince, Edwards' deputy campaign manager.
Thank you, "Senator Gone," for once again showing us your true colors.
It's quite telling when a man who seeks to hold the most powerful political job on this planet is afraid to show up at a debate because the "political slant" of the television network hosting the event is too intimidating.
Not surprisingly, many nations on this planet are even more intimidating than television networks. A candidate that cannot handle a few hours in a television studio is obviously incapable of guiding us through any crisis more dire than a shortage of hair care products.
I thank Edwards for showing this nation his inabilty to handle even such minor issues so early in his candidacy.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
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Edwards is boycotting Fox. Our side recognizes it as a propaganda wing of the Bush administration.
Look at these Fox headlines for instance. Mark Foley is a Democrat? Scooter Libby found "Not Guilty"? "'Civil War' in Iraq Made up by Media?" It's an embarrassment.
Posted by: Lex Steele at April 07, 2007 08:13 PM (xRKGN)
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Whoops, my link didn't work above.
Posted by: Lex Steele at April 07, 2007 08:14 PM (xRKGN)
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I fail to understand how an outlet's "slant" can change what the candidate says. And if they are avoiding going on fox because people might learn which channel fox is on ... then they must be stupid. Checking the latest ratings, about twice as many know where Fox is than know where CNN is.
Posted by: crosspatch at April 07, 2007 08:42 PM (y2kMG)
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THEY WANT TO TALK TO BASHAR ASSAD BUT NOT BRIT HUME!
Posted by: reliapundit at April 07, 2007 09:50 PM (H6Lch)
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I like Edwards, but I think you're right.
You need to go into the lion's den, not detour around it.
This just smacks of posturing and cowardice.
Man up, Senator, and beard the devil where he lives.
Posted by: David Terrenoire at April 07, 2007 10:01 PM (tk0b2)
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Bah. Why lend credence to propagandists?
Posted by: Lex Steele at April 07, 2007 10:22 PM (xRKGN)
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Edwards is boycotting Fox. Our side recognizes it as a propaganda wing of the Bush administration.
Curious that you cozy up to all the propaganda organs of various terrorist operations though isn't it?
I presume there's some sort of rationalization for this.
Posted by: Purple Avenger at April 07, 2007 11:14 PM (22lCG)
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"Our side recognizes it as a propaganda wing of the Bush administration."
Fox has an anti-jihadist slant. Your side is certianly against that. CNN is a propaganda outlet for terrorists. Maybe not as much as Al-jazeera, but it does have a pro-jihad slant.
Our side? That's pretty clear.
Posted by: brando at April 07, 2007 11:24 PM (uZ35s)
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Lex, you have got to be kidding me that the rest of the MSM e.g. Washington Post is not a propagandist machine for the Left. As someone who is a registered DEm and has read the Post for 25 years it became painfully real to me post Iraq Invasion. They continually post from the AP, and rarely send their own reporters into the country. The difference from say Fox News, is that you agree with the message. Pull out of Iraq, despite the consequences and without a long term strategy. Do you actually believe AQ is not there? Who else is manufacturing chlorine gas and releasing it into their own neighborhoods, the Baathists? Hmmmm, methinks you drink the other coolaid waaayyyyy too much and do not actually investigate both sides of the argument for the truth that lies between the Left and Right.
Posted by: Therapist1 at April 08, 2007 03:03 PM (Hr52v)
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brando: CNN is a propaganda outlet for terrorists. Maybe not as much as Al-jazeera, but it does have a pro-jihad slant.
To be blunt, that's stupid. What possible motive does CNN Time Warner have to support jihad? Is Time Warner a shell company for communists and jihadists? Or is it just another big company looking to make a buck? You are a reactionary.
Therapist1: The Post and the Times absolutely pushed for this mistaken war. David Obey (D-Wisconsin) said it well:
"Let me submit to you the problem we have today is not that we didn’t listen enough to people like the Washington Post. It’s that we listened too much. They endorsed going to war in the first place. They helped drive the drumbeat that drove almost 2/3 of the people in this chamber to vote for that misguided, ill-advised war. So I make no apology. If the moral sensibilities of some people on this floor, or the editorial writers of The Washington Post are offended because they don’t like the specific language contained in our benchmarks or in our timelines. What matters in the end is not what the specific language is. What matters is whether or not we produce a product today that puts pressure on this Administration and sends a message to Iraq, to the Iraqi politicians that we’re going to end the permanent long-term dead end babysitting service."
Posted by: Lex Steele at April 08, 2007 05:39 PM (xRKGN)
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"What possible motive does CNN Time Warner have to support jihad?"
Ah yes, the mantra of the villain. I didn't say there was a rational reason for it. There's no rational reason for child molesters. Or a rational reason for a jihadist to murder 15 people in a hospital in Mahmudiyah today. Some people are just flat out bad. That's not "our side". It shouldn't be CNN's or Al-Jazeera's or BBC's side either. But it is.
"What matters in the end is not what the specific language is."
The specifics do matter. CNN is often a cheerleader for terrorists. I listen to exactly what they say, with the understanding that they are competent adults. I don't know why they do it, but they do it a lot. They are also a bunch of smart people, therefore it's intentional. I wouldn’t think that a pro-terrorist slant would break down along party lines, but it often does.
Posted by: brando at April 08, 2007 08:09 PM (uZ35s)
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brando,
I'm interested in this. You say that some American media interests are pro-terrorist? These are the same media interests selling ad time to GM, Exxon and Boeing? Why would they do that? Do you really believe that every person working for CNN in Atlanta wants America to be attacked again? Really? That makes no sense.
I'm willing to listen, however, but I need help. CNN and MSNBC and the Washington Post and NY Times and LA Times post transcripts. Google is great at finding things. If you can find any transcript from any of them that you can even remotely interpret as pro-terrorist, I'll buy you a drink, give money to the GOP, and will never watch read or listen to whatever organization it is who has done this ever again.
That's a promise.
This country runs on money, brando, and the media listens to the people with money and in this country, the people with money aren't pro-terrorist. If you honestly believe Rick Kaplan has a liberal bent, then you need to pay closer attention to what's happening here.
Posted by: David Terrenoire at April 08, 2007 09:43 PM (tk0b2)
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brando: I agree that some people are bad, but huge conglomerates are much less colorful than people.
It's naive to say that Fox is anti-jihad and CNN is pro-jihad. Fox will say whatever the RNC wants it to say. CNN has some collection of masters as well, none of whom have the least in common with jihadists.
People like you fancy yourselves as rugged individualists. You have a shotgun, a rifle and a pickup truck, and so on. This is ironic because you are easily manipulated. The politicians and talking heads wave gay marriage or a terrorist or Terry Schiavo in your face and you believe whatever they want. Osama's not important? Okay! Saddam was the greatest threat to world peace? Right! We should lower taxes to increase tax revenue? No doubt! Kerry and Max Cleland served ignobly in Vietnam? Absolutely!
Meanwhile the people pulling your strings actually think you are a fool. Here's reality for you. Kissy kissy!
Posted by: Lex Steele at April 08, 2007 10:12 PM (xRKGN)
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"The politicians and talking heads wave gay marriage or a terrorist or Terry Schiavo in your face and you believe whatever they want."
That's objectively false.
Lex Steele is an integrity violator.
Posted by: brando at April 08, 2007 11:29 PM (uZ35s)
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brando,
I'm not completely sure about what you mean by 'integrity violator', but I suppose you said more than you meant to.
Most liberals are motivated by ordinary things, perhaps that it's wrong for children not to receive adequate health care in the richest country in the world, or it's wrong that middle-class wages have stagnated for 30 years while the super-wealthy have made bank at a stupefying rate.
I've never met a soul who wanted to abolish Christmas, nor one who wishes anything but the best to our soldiers in Iraq and Afghanistan, nor one who supports the jihadists in the least.
Now consider the last six years. Congress and the administration were so very united. You couldn't ask for a more establishment group of Republicans. The president is the son of a Republican president who was VP under Reagan. Every old hand available has served: Cheney, Rumsfeld, Poindexter, Eliot Abrahms, etc. Newt Gingrich and even Kissinger jumped in once or twice. This was the Republican dream team.
The Republicans should have been careful about what they wished for. Your leaders dislike government, and thus they don't govern well.
People like me want to scream when we hear you all complain that the MSM has an anti-American bias. The MSM is almost entirely owned by huge rapacious corporations which have less ideology than a squash.
Our constitution is all about the fight against tyranny. As Lincoln said, "At what point then is the approach of danger to be expected? I answer, if it ever reach us, it must spring up amongst us. It cannot come from abroad. If destruction be our lot, we must ourselves be its author and finisher."
So, who is the patriot? The one cowed by terrorists? The one determined to project US military might? Or the one who carps about injustice at home?
Posted by: Lex Steele at April 09, 2007 01:14 AM (xRKGN)
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What possible motive does CNN Time Warner have to support jihad?
Bushitler is against jihad, so they feel compelled to go soft on it like the democrats.
Its like this:
POSITION LeftPosition(POSITION BushPosition)
{
return !BushPosition;
}
Posted by: Purple Avenger at April 09, 2007 05:33 AM (XFDY6)
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Purple, that's not even worthy of contempt, it's just pitiful. You are a Pez dispenser of anemic snipe.
Posted by: Lex Steele at April 09, 2007 11:17 AM (xRKGN)
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Elizabeth Edwards: Scared of "Rabid, Rabid Republican" Neighbor
Edwards_2008
By MIKE BAKER
Associated Press Writer
Posted: Apr. 8 4:36 p.m.
Updated: Today at 12:03 a.m.
RALEIGH, N.C. — Elizabeth Edwards says she is scared of the "rabid, rabid Republican" who owns property across the street from her Orange County home - and she doesn't want her kids going near the gun-toting neighbor.
Edwards, the wife of Democratic presidential candidate John Edwards, particularly recalls the time neighbor Monty Johnson brought out a gun while chasing workers investigating a right of way off his property. The Edwards family has yet to meet Johnson in person.
"I wouldn't be nice to him anyway," Edwards said in an interview. "I don't want my kids anywhere near some guy who when he doesn't like somebody, the first thing he does is pull a gun out. It scares the business out of me."
http://www.wral.com/news/state/story/1264744/
Posted by: Locomotive Breath at April 09, 2007 01:21 PM (W7Snj)
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The servey was wrong, anyways.
The most widely used definition of "weapons of mass destruction" in official U.S. documents is "nuclear, chemical, and biological weapons."
http://www.nti.org/f_wmd411/f1a1.html
Remember that sarin gas? The nerve gas? How about that cholorine bomb just the other day?
Unless they keep redefining WMD until it means nukes only....
Posted by: Foxfier at April 10, 2007 03:09 PM (J7GMo)
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Brando-- is that like being a troll?
Posted by: Foxfier at April 10, 2007 03:11 PM (J7GMo)
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It’s more sinister than that.
Posted by: brando at April 11, 2007 11:05 AM (uZ35s)
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April 06, 2007
Speaker of the Big House
Logan Act, anyone?
House Speaker Nancy Pelosi may well have committed a felony in traveling to Damascus this week, against the wishes of the president, to communicate on foreign-policy issues with Syrian President Bashar Assad. The administration isn't going to want to touch this political hot potato, nor should it become a partisan issue. Maybe special counsel Patrick Fitzgerald, whose aggressive prosecution of Lewis Libby establishes his independence from White House influence, should be called back.
The Logan Act makes it a felony and provides for a prison sentence of up to three years for any American, "without authority of the United States," to communicate with a foreign government in an effort to influence that government's behavior on any "disputes or controversies with the United States." Some background on this statute helps to understand why Ms. Pelosi may be in serious trouble.
President John Adams requested the statute after a Pennsylvania pacifist named George Logan traveled to France in 1798 to assure the French government that the American people favored peace in the undeclared "Quasi War" being fought on the high seas between the two countries. In proposing the law, Rep. Roger Griswold of Connecticut explained that the object was, as recorded in the Annals of Congress, "to punish a crime which goes to the destruction of the executive power of the government. He meant that description of crime which arises from an interference of individual citizens in the negotiations of our executive with foreign governments."
The debate on this bill ran nearly 150 pages in the Annals. On Jan. 16, 1799, Rep. Isaac Parker of Massachusetts explained, "the people of the United States have given to the executive department the power to negotiate with foreign governments, and to carry on all foreign relations, and that it is therefore an usurpation of that power for an individual to undertake to correspond with any foreign power on any dispute between the two governments, or for any state government, or any other department of the general government, to do it."
Nominating Patrick Fitzgerald to pursue this investigation is not, of course, within the
WSJ's power, but it is an excellent suggestion all the same.
The author Robert F. Turner notes that it is quite possible that Pelosi's actions violate not just federal law (and a felony at that), but may have violated her oath of office as well.
Interestingly enough, President Bush tried to keep Pelosi from making this mistake. It's a shame she didn't have enough sense to listen.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
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Wouldn't it be interesting if, instead of watching President Bush get impeached, the nutroots had to stand by and watch Rep. Pelosi get convicted?
Posted by: Jeff at April 06, 2007 03:44 PM (yiMNP)
2
As you quoted the statute says, "without authority of the United States." One could very well argue that the Speaker of the House is an authority, as she was elected to represent her constituency.
"House Speaker Newt Gingrich traveled to China in March of 1997 and threatened military action in the event of an attack on Taiwan."
You were up in arms in '97, too, right? Or do you only get upset when it's a Speaker that you don't like?
Posted by: Lex Steele at April 06, 2007 04:10 PM (xRKGN)
3
Funny how the whole picture is not taken into account in this story. No mention of Rep. Darrel Issa (R-CA) or other GOP delegates meeting with Syrian leaders right before and after Pelosi's visit.
Posted by: Jeff K at April 06, 2007 04:29 PM (j9+K8)
4
If they didn't say they were on a solo diplomacy mission in direct conflict with the leader of their country, it doesn't matter if they were around.
Posted by: Foxfier at April 06, 2007 05:07 PM (J7GMo)
5
It's interesting to speculate, but you and I both know there have never been any prosecutions under the Logan Act, not even when Denny Hastert went to Colombia and told them they could deal directly with Congress instead of going through the Executive branch.
And Jeff K has a point. If it's wrong for Pelosi to meet with Assad, it's wrong for the GOP reps, too.
And I find it funny all this hand-wringing and shock, I tell you, shock, at Pelosi wearing a head scarf.
Christian politicians wear yarmulkes in temples, Jewish women cover their heads at the Vatican, atheists remove their hats in Baptist churches. It's a sign of respect, not capitulation, as some would have us believe.
Posted by: David Terrenoire at April 06, 2007 05:21 PM (tk0b2)
6
Interestingly enough, President Bush tried to keep Pelosi from making this mistake. It's a shame she didn't have enough sense to listen.
Bush has been so wrong so often that smart people listen to him and do the opposite.
Posted by: David Terrenoire at April 06, 2007 05:40 PM (tk0b2)
7
AHHHH! The Stupid! It Burns!
Posted by: George Orwell at April 06, 2007 06:20 PM (Ohwji)
8
Newt Gingrich traveled to China in March of 1997 and threatened military action in the event of an attack on Taiwan
I'm not sure that simply restating existing US policy means much.
Posted by: Purple Avenger at April 06, 2007 06:23 PM (22lCG)
9
AHHHH! The Stupid! It Burns!
Oh, now, George, I think Bob is having fun here. No need to call him stupid.
And if it keeps burning, especially when you urinate, you might want to have that checked.
Just sayin.'
As for Purple Avenger, it appears that Pelosi was restating administration policy so I guess you're on board with her trip. Glad to see it.
Posted by: David Terrenoire at April 06, 2007 06:31 PM (tk0b2)
10
Last time I checked, Pelosi was still an elected United States official.
Posted by: jpe at April 06, 2007 06:41 PM (eotrn)
11
You guys are missing the point: if the Democrats do it, whatever "it" is, it's wrong. If the Republicans do it, it can be effortlessly rationalized. Get with the wingnut program!
Posted by: Doc Washboard at April 06, 2007 08:26 PM (c3WzW)
12
The question:
How many more balls does Nancy have than GW?
The answer: zero.
If you get my drift, boys.
Posted by: Bourbon Straight at April 06, 2007 08:59 PM (yQsK0)
13
Washboard: I think you're oversimplifying. There are actually three rules:
1) whatever the Democrats do is wrong
2) the lower the tax, the higher the revenue
3) it's Bill Clinton's fault
Posted by: Lex Steele at April 06, 2007 09:16 PM (xRKGN)
14
Bourbon,
I wonder if Pelosi is afraid of horses, too.
No, probably not. It's only the cowboy.
Posted by: David Terrenoire at April 06, 2007 09:19 PM (tk0b2)
15
it appears that Pelosi was restating administration policy
If that truly is all it was, then fine. All she did was waste taxpayer dollars on a shopping junket.
Posted by: Purple Avenger at April 07, 2007 06:08 AM (22lCG)
16
First, I betcha Jimmy Carter keeps a low profile until this goes away.
Second, "YOU DID IT TOO!" Is not a defense.
Posted by: DoorHold at April 07, 2007 10:28 AM (nnweY)
17
DoorHold:
"You did it too!" is not being used as a defense. The fact that Republicans were in Syria--as well as Pelosi--needs to be dealt with before an honest discussion on the issue can transpire. Either it's wrong to go to Syria (in which case, Right Blogistan needs to call for the trial and execution of Issa et al, too; if, on the other hand, it's okay for Republicans to go to Syria, then it's okay for Pelosi, too.
The burden here is on the Right. The Left isn't saying anyone has committed treason. The Right, conversely, has suggested that Pelosi is a traitor, while Righty partisans who did the same thing are blameless. This double standard needs to be reconciled.
Posted by: Doc Washboard at April 07, 2007 12:28 PM (5pYzS)
18
The Left isn't saying anyone has committed treason.
That's because treason is considered the highest form of patriotism by the left these days.
Posted by: Purple Avenger at April 07, 2007 02:01 PM (22lCG)
19
Wow, Avenger: your track record of saying absolutely nothing of value remains unblemished.
Why don't you ever actually engage on the issues? Your every contribution is a nonsequitur talking point or an attempt at a pity one-liner (which attempts always fail, by the way).
Try bringing something of substance to the conversation.
Posted by: Doc Washboard at April 07, 2007 03:27 PM (5pYzS)
20
"Pithy," I meant to write.
Posted by: Doc Washboard at April 07, 2007 03:29 PM (5pYzS)
Posted by: Lex Steele at April 07, 2007 03:45 PM (xRKGN)
22
Gingrich, while in Israel, announced that an undivided Jerusalem would always be its capital. This was a direct contradiction of US policy (which was that the status of Jeruslaem remained an issue to be negotiated).
Posted by: Mike Schilling at April 07, 2007 06:07 PM (vdlhR)
23
Are we to believe that Ehud Olmert chose Pelosi and Company to become messengers for Israel? Including a four-month Congressman with connections to CAIR?
I seriously doubt it. This is why they leave dimplomacy up to the adults in the State Department:
WASHINGTON (AP) -- Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert told a visiting group of U.S. lawmakers to relay to Syria that Israel had no intention of attacking it, according to one of the participants on the trip, Rep. Keith Ellison, D-Minn.
"He very clearly said he was worried that Syria might misinterpret some things that were happening in Israel, and he didn't want to end up in an accidental war with them," Ellison, the first Muslim member of Congress, said in a telephone interview Saturday. "So he told us to tell them that he was not planning to attack them."
Ellison said Olmert was concerned that if Syria believed that Israel was planning an attack, the Syrians would make preparations to defend against one, and then a conflict could be provoked if something unexpected happened at the border.
The Israeli embassy in Washington had no immediate comment on Ellison's account. There was no answer at the Syrian embassy on Saturday.
Posted by: Adirondack Patriot at April 07, 2007 08:02 PM (BaISv)
24
""You did it too!" is not being used as a defense. ... The Right ... has suggested that Pelosi is a traitor, while Righty partisans who did the same thing are blameless. This double standard needs to be reconciled."
Okay, it's not being used as a "defense" by you. A way to deflect attention from the current issue maybe? Rather than deal with the current issue you bring up another. And you are correct that double standards need to be reconciled. For example, I never understood why Democrats get away with stuff Republicans are roasted for (and I mean, like, go to jail for). It would be nice to see the problem of double standards reconciled (not gonna happen, but it would be nice).
Posted by: DoorHold at April 08, 2007 01:06 PM (EEywy)
25
DoorHold: the Repubs controlled the executive and congress for six years. Do you have any idea how pitiful it is that you should whine about how disadvantaged you are?
Posted by: Lex Steele at April 08, 2007 05:41 PM (xRKGN)
26
Seriously, DoorHold: why didn't the Right move on Democratic corruption when they held what amounted to all three branches at the Federal level?
I'm not saying that Democrats are blameless, but come on--who was making the decisions for the past six years, and why were they making the wrong ones? Which Republican heads will roll for this?
Also: what issue am I avoiding? I'll address it, if I haven't already.
Posted by: Doc Washboard at April 08, 2007 08:56 PM (UyN5f)
27
Um, maybe you're avoiding the issue at hand? The one brought up in this blog? This post? Maybe because I only read through this once a day I'm missing some point OTHER than that "everyone does it too how about that?"
I'm not surprised that, being an essentially conservative Republican, I tend to clearly see and be appalled by corruption and traitorous acts by liberal Democrats, why would anyone else be surprised?
Are there ANY politicial groups that are innocent? Is it even possible to obtain or wield power without corruption?
Is it possible to answer the question at hand: Did Pelosi violate Federal law and her oath of office? Not "compared to this-or-that situation," not "but this-or-that happened in the past," just, "did she or didn't she?"
An additional issue is, if she did, why, in this case as in dozens of others, will nothing be done? It doesn't matter who's in charge (or who used to be), why is nothing ever done?
Sorry if I'm being "pitiful" again.

Posted by: DoorHold at April 09, 2007 01:02 PM (GlW85)
28
Honestly, DoorHold, I don't know if Pelosi violated the law. I'm not a lawyer. In my layman's view, it doesn't seem like she did, because she's a duly elected representative of the United States government, and government folk get to do stuff like this. For the same reason, I don't think anything needs to be done to the Republican reps who went over to Syria, either.
They're not negotiating treaties. It's talk.
Again, I'm not a lawyer, nor do I play one on TV.
Posted by: Doc Washboard at April 09, 2007 01:54 PM (tvsbt)
29
"... government folk get to do stuff like this ..."
That pretty much finishes this discussion!

Posted by: DoorHold at April 10, 2007 12:36 PM (X3uuh)
30
Come on, what do you want me to say? I'm not a Constitutional lawyer, yet you asked me for a legal opinion on the issue. I don't see a problem with any representatives, Democratic or Republican, visiting Syria. Wouldn't this be the vaunted "backchannels" we always hear about?
These guys get to do things that you and I don't get to do; one of them is visiting foreign countries and speaking to the leaders therein.
Posted by: Doc Washboard at April 10, 2007 05:23 PM (nrafD)
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New DOD Report Indicates No Ties Between Saddam and al Qaeda; New e-Book Indicates Just the Opposite
I QUESTION THE TIMING!
The Washington
Post has an article posted this morning by R. Jeffery Smith that seems to put to rest allegations that Saddam Hussein's government was directly in contact with al Qaeda before the 2003 invasion of Iraq.
Interestingly, the release of this report came on the same day that Vice President Dick Cheney repeated allegations of
cooperation:
The report's release came on the same day that Vice President Cheney, appearing on Rush Limbaugh's radio program, repeated his allegation that al-Qaeda was operating inside Iraq "before we ever launched" the war, under the direction of Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, the terrorist killed last June.
"This is al-Qaeda operating in Iraq," Cheney told Limbaugh's listeners about Zarqawi, whom he said had "led the charge for Iraq." Cheney cited the alleged history to illustrate his argument that withdrawing U.S. forces from Iraq would "play right into the hands of al-Qaeda."
Folks, unless the Veep has information I don't (which is quite possible), he is possibly conflating two things here.
There is no doubt
whatsoever that Zarqawi was a terrorist operating in Iraq by late 2001, and that he was well established prior to the 2003 invasion. There is also no doubt at all that he shared the same radical Sunni Islamist philosophy as al Qaeda. What does not seem to be supported by the report is Zarqawi's direct contact with al Qaeda prior to the 2003 invasion.
But one thing the report does apparently reinforce is that Saddam Hussein did have ties to other terror groups, which Smith glosses over (my bold):
Instead, the report said, the CIA had concluded in June 2002 that there were few substantiated contacts between al-Qaeda operatives and Iraqi officials and had said that it lacked evidence of a long-term relationship like the ones Iraq had forged with other terrorist groups.
But is the DOD report accurate?
As we well know, millions of documents were captured after the fall of the Iraqi government, and the overwhelming majority of those documents have yet to be translated, thanks to the rise of the insurgency in Iraq. U.S. intelligence assets have always been extremely thin in regards to Arab translators, and those translators we do have are being used--and rightfully so--in active intelligence operations, not the historical review of documents from a regime that no longer exists. It is simply a matter of priorities.
But while U.S. military assets are correctly focused on current intelligence exploitation, a former member of the Iraq Study Group and his co-authors has gone though the documentation released by DOD, and has come to a vastly different series of conclusions, published in a new e-book,
Both In One Trench: Saddam's Support to the Global Jihad Movement and International Terrorism.
I have a review copy of the book and I'm just starting on it, but if Robinson, Dunaway and al-Hadir are correct, then there may be reason to doubt the accuracy of the DOD report, not because DOD is being deceptive in any way, but simply because they are working from limited data that results from their assets being needed elsewhere.
Some of the bombshell conclusions published in the book are stunning:
The Saddam regime supported Islamic terrorists the same as it supported other ‘secular’ terrorists. The key to understanding this issue is the logical distinction between working with Islamic extremists to achieve mutual objectives outside of Iraq versus having them exist uncontrolled inside Iraq. Saddam’s regime was “open for business” to leaders from al-Qaeda, Egyptian Islamic Jihad, the Taliban, Hamas, Afghani warlords and other Islamic extremist organizations.
2. Documents provide strong evidence that Saddam was the instigator and ultimate mastermind behind the Battle of Mogadishu in 1993. They also provide evidence to suspect that Saddam was complicit in the Millennium Plot as executed by al Qaeda against the United States. Furthermore, documents reveal what may be foreknowledge by Saddam of the American anthrax attack that occurred within days of 9/11.
3. Saddam was in material breach of UN resolutions. The authorization from Congress for the use of force in Iraq was based largely on the failure of the Saddam regime to comply with its obligations under agreement to the UN. This fact is salient; the Saddam regime was in a state of noncompliance. WMD, while a significant part of the argument before the war, was never the sole justification despite cynical attempts by historical revisionists to portray it as the only justification provided by the Bush Administration.
4. Saddam corrupted mightily. He used pacifists, leftists, and even environmentalists to spread his propaganda. His intelligence agencies claimed to have sources all over the world in sensitive organizations, including the UN and the American media.
5. There are indications of activities in Iraq that we cannot make full determination on at this time, but which raise interesting questions. While we cannot make conclusions, we will pass the relevant information to the reader who may draw his or her own conclusions. For instance, a report by a respected journalist about a claim of an Iraqi underground nuclear test that happened in the late 1980’s appears to have sparked concern within the Saddam regime. The internal memorandum shows active steps to conceal evidence related to the story.
6. For the sake of history we make the startling revelation that during President Bush’s 2006 State of the Union Address, a spy for Saddam Hussein sat with the First Lady, Laura Bush. It should be noted that it was practically impossible to know this, and at the time the man was a leader of the Afghan reform movement that supported the overthrow of the Taliban.
Does the evidence support the allegations made by the authors? If so, does the documentation captured in Iraq provide the documentary evidence to justify the Iraq War?
At 200+ pages, this book promises to be an interesting read. If the conclusions made are supported, it may just be the most important book released since the beginning of the War On Terror.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
12:10 PM
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1
Just to be perfectly clear on this, you're saying that some blogger knows better than the DoD whether Saddam cooperated with Al Qaeda. If you like I'll find you a blogger who thinks the moon is made of cheese. Will that then be true as well?
Is your reasoning that the DoD is compromised by liberal bias?
Posted by: Lex Steele at April 06, 2007 04:16 PM (xRKGN)
2
Ray Robison isn't just some blogger -- he is the smartest man alive (after Christopher Hitchens).
Read his blog.
P.S. Liberals are hiding Saddam's weapons of mass destruction.
Posted by: smb1971 at April 06, 2007 04:46 PM (7rmIH)
3
P.S. Liberals are hiding Saddam's weapons of mass destruction.
Why, I think I have some WMDs in my pants! How did that get in there?
Posted by: David Terrenoire at April 06, 2007 05:27 PM (tk0b2)
4
BTW I am not sure why the author of this blog "questions the timing" of the release of this report or finds it interesting this happened on the day Cheney refutes its contents.
You could assume the VP gets told about DoD releases like this. Particularly when the intended audience is him. He being the one person on the planet who didn't understand the first 5 times this assessment was made public.
Posted by: Kilo at April 06, 2007 05:48 PM (aOeXm)
5
FFS, If you google the man's name you have to search all the way down to result #6 to find out he's a conspiracy theorist.
No doubt there'll be a reason the self-policing blogosphere always bitching about MSM errors keeps their "hey check out Loose Change" post up.
Gullible idiots. If nothing else they're 100% reliable in terms of opting for denial over any other option.
Posted by: Kilo at April 06, 2007 05:58 PM (aOeXm)
6
You could assume the VP gets told about DoD releases like this.
Of course you have evidence this happens right?
To presume any one agency of the government talks with any other in any reliable manner is a very bold assumption indeed.
Posted by: Purple Avenger at April 06, 2007 06:27 PM (22lCG)
7
Kilo --
You could assume the VP gets told about DoD releases like this.
Cheney doesn't roll in that fashion. He transcends the reality based community with bold leadership and iron resolve. He is a crimefighter, or more accurately an evil-doer fighter. His 'Robin' has sterling instincts, an infallible moral compass, and a legendary gut which more than make up for his lack of brains and experience. Together they will drive evil back into the spider hole from whence it came.
"We can be sure that some pundits will acclaim [Bush's] speech as bold and brilliant; they would do that if he read from 'The Very Hungry Caterpillar.'"
--Paul Krugman
Posted by: Lex Steele at April 06, 2007 06:44 PM (xRKGN)
8
To presume any one agency of the government talks with any other in any reliable manner is a very bold assumption indeed.
Purple (can I call you by your first name?) I've written for two Federal agencies recently and I can tell you from personal experience that this administration is very hands-on. If the DOD was publishing this report today, you can bet your last nickel that Cheney knew what was in it last week.
Trust me. These guys are seriously into control.
Posted by: David Terrenoire at April 06, 2007 06:52 PM (tk0b2)
9
They're all into control.
That's what government is.
I don't know why people assume Democrats aren't into "control." They're kneecapping our troops in the field in a desperate attempt to maintain it.
Posted by: Good Lt at April 06, 2007 11:57 PM (yMbfY)
10
Hey, what happened to that massive project where hundreds of wingnuts were all carefully going over all those Saddam documents that proved that he was Bin Laden's BFF?
Posted by: sam at April 07, 2007 05:59 AM (G6WeB)
11
Corrected link for: Conspiracy Theorist
That was a reference to Ray Robison who, while missing an 'n' and posessing no skills as either a translator or intelligence analyst, has produced a book which would have required at least one of those skill sets to be taken seriously.
Much like my ill-fated translation of the Dead Sea Scrolls, hampered somewhat by my only speaking english and not being a biblical scholar. 200 pages though.
The link above refers to this timeline:
March 2003...
- US prepares to invade Iraq.
- US airdrops psyops leaflets for Iraqi population.
- Saddam decides a good way to have civilians distrust US and not pick these up and read them is to start rumours the leaflets are laced with anthrax and pretend they are by collecting them in chemical suits.
- General of the Joint Chiefs of staff cites these actions as a reason the psyops are viewed as effective by Saddam.
March 2006...
- In the Iraqi intel dump Ray finds a reference to these leaflets the US was dropping and the rumour about them containing anthrax, promoted by Iraqis.
- With 3 years of knowledge that no anthrax-laced pamphlets were dropped, Ray interprets this as meaning Saddam did have these leaflets poisoned and airdropped by the Iraqi air force.
- Ray claims that's what has been discovered in newly translated documents, the benign subject of which was MSM news 3 years earlier and online ever since.
- The mention of use of anthrax (which wasn't used) in a document (not written by the Iraqis) is cited as proof Iraqis had anthrax.
April 2007...
- Someone is yet unclear as to whether Ray Robison's fantastic discoveries in translated Iraqi intel documents, without employing skill in translation or intel analysis, will be credible or worth reading.
ps. Please take care in quoting this post as inclusion of certain words may prove that you too are in posession of, or have launched attacks with, biological agents.
Posted by: Kilo at April 07, 2007 06:45 AM (aOeXm)
12
Kilo, your link goes to a google search. Provide the specific direct link for your allegation, becuase when I clicked on your first link, it went to a site called the Liberal Avenger (a less than credible source, to put it mildly), and the only link it had on that page went to a Fox News article written by Robinson, which, on a quick review (and perhaps I missed it), does not support your anthrax allegation.
As for Robinson's qualifications, he is a Sr. Military Operations Research Analyst with a background including over ten years of military service as an officer and enlisted soldier including the Gulf War and Kosovo operations, and is a graduate of the Combined Arms and Services Staff School.
He worked as a contractor for DIA with the Iraqi Survey Group, supervising linguists and cataloguing documents as they were captured in Iraq.
Please, enlighten us as to how a senior research analyst with service in military intelligence who worked for the Defense Intelligence Agency as a contracting supervisor to a team of translators/linguists cataloging and classifying these captured documents is not qualified to write this book. I'm all ears.
As for Robison no speaking Arabic, well, duh; he never claimed he did. You notice he has two co-authors, one of which is a Arab translator going by the name of Sammi al-Hadir.
Sam, that "massive wingnut project" was pulled when the ever conservative New York Times cried about Iraqi nuclear weapons information being among the released documents. The Times article is now behind a $$$ firewall, but I posted on it here on Nov 03, 2006.
Intrestingly enough the Times may not have ever known of this information had Robinson not contacted a former member of the IAEA about a related document in that release of DOD two weeks prior.
Realizing that the document dump did indeed contain potentially classified and dangerous information, the web site was shut down.
By the time the site was shut down, Robinson, Dunaway and al-Hadir (the authors of this book), had already downloaded a significant amount of the documentation.
This book is the culmination of that very same research project the Times was responsible for shutting down over nuclear fears.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at April 07, 2007 10:36 AM (HcgFD)
13
They're all into control.
That's what government is.
No. This crew is seriuously into controlling everything. That's why they've installed political officers, much like the old Soviet system, in every bureau and branch of the federal government. I work with these people and all the old hands say they've never seen anything like this. Never.
And the Democrats knee-capping our troops? You mean like sending them to war without up-armor, too few troops, no police training, no exit strategy, no plans for the insurgency and managed by a bunch of loyalist cronies with no experience in building a nation's bureaucratic infrastructure? You mean knee-capping like that?
No, I didn't think so. Here, have another glass of Kool Aid.
Posted by: David Terrenoire at April 07, 2007 10:40 AM (tk0b2)
14
I don't think the DOD is made up of liberal bias. I just don't think this report was really designed to look at all the data that might show links between Hussein and al Qaeda, it was more to analyze the process by Feith's office of making the case for links.
On the overall topic I am 100% sure, having studied this topic for four years and writing about it some at www.regimeofterror.com, that Saddam's regime had covert links to al Qaeda. There's been HUNDREDS of ex Saddamists found as al Qaeda leaders and fighters since 2002 and plenty of members of both sides, in custody and at large who have admitted links. I'll take this volume of evidence over what Saddam told his captors.
This doesn't mean all members of both groups had a secret pact to always cooperate but there were certainly instances in which their paths crossed and their interests overlapped.
Posted by: Mark Eichenlaub at April 07, 2007 11:22 AM (W4zkU)
15
Confederate Yankee wrote: ...enlighten us as to how a senior research analyst with service in military intelligence who worked for the Defense Intelligence Agency as a contracting supervisor to a team of translators/linguists cataloging and classifying these captured documents is not qualified to write this book.
James Robison is not qualified to interpret data of this kind, which is why he played no part in analyzing these documents in Qatar. He is, however, perfectly entitled to write a book - so long as he sticks to a subject he knows something about, like projectiles.
Confederate Yankee wrote: Intrestingly enough the Times may not have ever known of this information had Robinson not contacted a former member of the IAEA about a related document in that release of DOD two weeks prior.
Many people kept a watchful eye on the Operation Iraqi Freedom document portal. Neither James Robison nor Joseph Shahda played any part in the chain of events that led to its closure, despite both of them separately suggesting that they did.
Posted by: smb1971 at April 07, 2007 06:21 PM (7rmIH)
16
Mr Eichenlaub, your research isn't worth poo. Former Saddamists and Jihadists joining together, you say? Yes, probably. According to President Bush, Iraq is now the central front of the 'war on terror'. This particular strand of backward logic is summarised in three words: Affirming the consequent. Different groups have come together as a result of military action, not the other way around. Next you will be informing us that open umbrellas cause rain!
Posted by: smb1971 at April 07, 2007 06:55 PM (7rmIH)
17
Kilo, your link goes to a google search. Provide the specific direct link for your allegation, becuase when I clicked on your first link, it went to a site called the Liberal Avenger...
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at April 7, 2007 10:36 AM
Who's blog is banned from being directly linked here.
The google search term was the name of that blog and the exact title of one of its posts. I can't imagine it was too obscure what I was linking to.
...Liberal Avenger (a less than credible source, to put it mildly)
I wasn't pointing you to Liberal Avenger as the source. I was pointing you to Ray. How do you rate Ray on Ray-related matters ?
There's a post there that mentions Ray had made these ridiculous claims on that blog and many responses from Ray, none disputing this fact.Whether the blog was Liberal Avenger or Dan Reihl the only writing in question are Ray's own posts.
and the only link it had on that page went to a Fox News article written by Robinson, which, on a quick review (and perhaps I missed it), does not support your anthrax allegation.
The anthrax allegation isn't mine. It's Ray's. And yes you did miss some links, the "2003" and "2006" section headings in my post are links to the references in question.
As for Robinson's qualifications, he is...
... exactly what I said he was in terms of the only 2 qualifications that would matter.
Please, enlighten us as to how a senior research analyst with service in military intelligence who worked for the Defense Intelligence Agency as a contracting supervisor to a team of translators/linguists cataloging and classifying these captured documents is not qualified to write this book. I'm all ears.
I did enlighten you already. I pointed out that he has no qualifications as a translator or an intelligence analyst while writing analusis of intelligence in a foreign language, as he has been doing on his blog for some time.
You should probably note that I did actually take his word for it before writing that, but we can argue about it if you like.
As for Robison no speaking Arabic, well, duh; he never claimed he did.
And indeed you never claimed in your previous paragraph that
his translating experience which didn't involve being able to translate Arabic was in any way contradicting what I wrote.
You notice he has two co-authors, one of which is a Arab translator going by the name of Sammi al-Hadir.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at April 7, 2007 10:36 AM
Yes I did notice that. I didn't spot though where Sammi was revealed to be a rabid anti-conspiracy-theorist though, if the suggestion is that he would be offsetting Ray's failings.
I was after all suggesting that the man has a record of making ricidulous claims and flat-out-wrong interpretations of intelligence, which often involve hysterical conspiracy theories.
You should be able to understand though that his own inability to translate arabic, and therefore to verify advice he receives about translations, has added to how ridiculous these X-files-like cliams have been in the past.
In fact I do believe even the single example I citied involved the same Sammi providing an incorrect translation which led to Ray -- with no option but to rely on a single incorrect translation -- basing his analysis on information which didn't exist.
I'm actually quite certain you can read Ray explaining that himself on one of those two links I provided. So you know, the boat ain't looking any leakier now that Sammi is involved now is it ?
I'm going to assume you appreciate the significance that you've introduced this guy's name here, I've googled his name, selected one Iraq-al Qaeda claim he's made and on that one issue he's peddled a ridiculous, baseless claim based on information that was debunked 4 years ago the second it was known and in part because his translator screwed up the translation.
Gee I wonder if someone looked into him for longer than 15 minutes and on more than one "intelligence discovery" claim he has made whether his credibility would look better or worse.
Actually no I don't. Neither does anyone else reading this.
Posted by: Kilo at April 10, 2007 08:46 AM (aOeXm)
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I Think They Have Pills For This
When Editor and Publisher first pimped Joe Klein's article yesterday, I thought it might be a serious indictment of a flawed Presidency.
Uh, no.
Klein's article reads like a comment thread on the Democratic Underground, over the top to the point of making Klein look roughly as credible as Rosie O'Donnell, if with a slightly better grasp of the English language. It is an exercise is excessive hyperbole, is poorly sourced, and highly speculative.
The Iraq War was solely predicated upon Saddam Hussein trying to killed George H.W. Bush? The 2000 election was "stolen?" Please.
I expect that from the same forthing fringe that insists "9/11 was an inside job," but I expect better from both
Time and Klein.
All this rant firmly establishes is that Joe Klein has a deep, seething hatred for President Bush, and that he not above trashing his own credibility to display it.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
09:31 AM
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1
I agree this piece by Klein is almost childish in its simplicity.
I think George W. Bush is a man who was completely unprepared, emotionally and intellectually, for the job of president, but PNAC and its architects are more to blame for the disaster in Iraq than Saddam's attempt to kill Bush 41.
And as Petraeus literally wrote the book on counterinsurgency, I still hope he can pull this off. I have my doubts, but the consequences of failure are too grim to contemplate.
But Klein's bottom line? Arrogant, incompetent and cynical? Yeah, I agree with that. Boy, do I agree with that.
Posted by: David Terrenoire at April 06, 2007 11:01 AM (kxecL)
2
"but PNAC and its architects are more to blame for the disaster in Iraq than Saddam's attempt to kill Bush 41."
Yeah, or the Iraq Liberation Act on 1998,
you know signed into law by that big NeoCon B
Bill Clinton:
The Iraq Liberation Act
October 31, 1998
STATEMENT BY THE PRESIDENT
THE WHITE HOUSE
Office of the Press Secretary
For Immediate Release
October 31, 1998
STATEMENT BY THE PRESIDENT
Today I am signing into law H.R. 4655, the "Iraq Liberation Act of 1998." This Act makes clear that it is the sense of the Congress that the United States should support those elements of the Iraqi opposition that advocate a very different future for Iraq than the bitter reality of internal repression and external aggression that the current regime in Baghdad now offers.
Let me be clear on what the U.S. objectives are: The United States wants Iraq to rejoin the family of nations as a freedom-loving and law-abiding member. This is in our interest and that of our allies within the region.
The United States favors an Iraq that offers its people freedom at home. I categorically reject arguments that this is unattainable due to Iraq's history or its ethnic or sectarian make-up. Iraqis deserve and desire freedom like everyone else. The United States looks forward to a democratically supported regime that would permit us to enter into a dialogue leading to the reintegration of Iraq into normal international life.
My Administration has pursued, and will continue to pursue, these objectives through active application of all relevant United Nations Security Council resolutions. The evidence is overwhelming that such changes will not happen under the current Iraq leadership.
In the meantime, while the United States continues to look to the Security Council's efforts to keep the current regime's behavior in check, we look forward to new leadership in Iraq that has the support of the Iraqi people. The United States is providing support to opposition groups from all sectors of the Iraqi community that could lead to a popularly supported government.
On October 21, 1998, I signed into law the Omnibus Consolidated and Emergency Supplemental Appropriations Act, 1999, which made $8 million available for assistance to the Iraqi democratic opposition. This assistance is intended to help the democratic opposition unify, work together more effectively, and articulate the aspirations of the Iraqi people for a pluralistic, participa--tory political system that will include all of Iraq's diverse ethnic and religious groups. As required by the Emergency Supplemental Appropriations Act for FY 1998 (Public Law 105-174), the Department of State submitted a report to the Congress on plans to establish a program to support the democratic opposition. My Administration, as required by that statute, has also begun to implement a program to compile information regarding allegations of genocide, crimes against humanity, and war crimes by Iraq's current leaders as a step towards bringing to justice those directly responsible for such acts.
The Iraq Liberation Act of 1998 provides additional, discretionary authorities under which my Administration can act to further the objectives I outlined above. There are, of course, other important elements of U.S. policy. These include the maintenance of U.N. Security Council support efforts to eliminate Iraq's weapons and missile programs and economic sanctions that continue to deny the regime the means to reconstitute those threats to international peace and security. United States support for the Iraqi opposition will be carried out consistent with those policy objectives as well. Similarly, U.S. support must be attuned to what the opposition can effectively make use of as it develops over time. With those observations, I sign H.R. 4655 into law.
WILLIAM J. CLINTON
THE WHITE HOUSE,
October 31, 1998.
Posted by: Some Guy at April 06, 2007 11:07 AM (JEpRn)
3
Oh, you can always tell you're reading nonsense
when someone accuses a politician of...
gasp*** partisanship. But in Bush's case HYPERpartisanship. OOh, you mean like No Child Left Behind with Kennedy.
Arrogance: Whine, whine, no one will listen to me!
Cynicism: Islamic radicals make war on the west, yet it's somehow Bush's fault? Talk about cynicism.
Posted by: Some Guy at April 06, 2007 11:10 AM (JEpRn)
4
Noticed the same thing myself. You obviously have a higher tolerance for nonsense than I do. I never made it past the fourth paragraph which begins:
General David Petraeus has repeatedly said, "A military solution to Iraq is not possible." Translation: This thing fails unless there is a political deal among the Shi'ites, Sunnis and Kurds. There is no such deal on the horizon, largely because of the President's aversion to talking to people he doesn't like.
Even ignoring his obtuseness in not understanding part of the solution to the political process is the military's responsibility for providing a secure environment, Joe slides off into la-la land with his "it's all Bush's fault because he doesn't like them."
The man has become a joke and the fact that Time finds such tripe fit for print does not reflect well upon them.
Posted by: mindnumbrobot at April 06, 2007 11:12 AM (d5LvD)
5
Guys like Klein are not journalists. They are DNC hacks employed as journalists. Oh, and I'm a journalist, though I cover completely different stuff, never politics, thankfully. I would be embarrassed to write something like this. I would.
This article comes across as a fifth grader's attempt to understand the world. The charges of incompetence are the most childish. Gosh, Joe Klein, I'm sure if you were president, it would be a world of rainbows and puppies.
No mention of the great economy. Yes, it is great. Look at the numbers. No mention that the M.E. has 2, TWOOOOOO, budding democracies whereas 7 years ago it had 0 Budding Democracies.
Yet, somehow Bush is incompetent, but Time can't keep its readership from falling off.
What a joke.
Posted by: Some Guy at April 06, 2007 11:28 AM (JEpRn)
6
Some Guy,
I'm not sure what your point is by quoting The Iraq Liberation Act except that Clinton was smarter about how to contain and overthrow Saddam than Bush or his advisors, the architects of PNAC (none of whom ever saw a day in uniform).
Clinton had contained Saddam and, as the evidence shows, contained Saddam's WMD programs as well. Was it perfect? No. These things are always messy, as we see by the Oil for Food program. But, overall, Saddam was contained and we were in a far better place then than we are now.
No, it was George W. Bush who decided to send our troops into war and why Cheney, a man who in 1991 rightly said that an occupation of Iraq would be a disaster changed his mind ten years later, is beyond me.
If you really want to look at someone who dropped the ball, look back at Bush 41. After driving Sddam from Kuwait, he encouraged the Shia in the south to rise up and overthrow the Baathists and when they did, Bush let Saddam use his helicopters in order to put down the revolt and did nothing to stop him. Those mass graves they talk about on Fox? Most of them were dead Shia who trusted George HW Bush.
But if you really think Clinton had a better grasp of this situation than George Bush, I'm with you there, partner.
Posted by: David Terrenoire at April 06, 2007 11:40 AM (kxecL)
7
>>These things are always messy, as we see by the Oil for Food program.
Yeah, whatever, dude. Get a clue: We only discovered stuff like this AFTER THE INVASION. Saddam was not contained. No one had a clue as to what he was up to.
No, the point of the ILA of 98 is to show that both Clinton and Bush thought he was A THREAT THAT NEEDED TO BE REPLACED. After 9-11, Bush decided on Military Action.
But let's just cut to the chase: how would the world be better off with Saddam still in power?
Posted by: Some Guy at April 06, 2007 11:50 AM (JEpRn)
8
Some Guy: Islamic radicals make war on the west, yet it's somehow Bush's fault? Talk about cynicism.
Oh come on. No one's debating that. We're upset because Bush has us mired in Iraq, which turned out to be toothless. Joe Wilson and Scott Ritter and Dominique du Villepin were absolutely correct before the war, and you and Bush were absolutely wrong. CY's argument these days is that "we broke it, we've got to fix it", and I admit there's some merit in that, but it's a new front in the battle against jihad, one that Bush actually enabled. The previous jihadist elements are essentially untouched.
Most of the 9/11 hijackers came from Saudi Arabia, Pakistan really has been selling nuke components, Iran really is pursuing nukes, North Korea probably has nukes. The Pentagon just disclosed that relations between Al Qaeda and Iraq were limited. Bush admitted that there is no evidence that Saddam was behind 9/11. Beyond the painful fiasco that is his signature issue, his other scandals are piling up so deep that we have trouble keeping track of them. Yet here you are, whining that we're being unfair to Bush.
Posted by: Lex Steele at April 06, 2007 11:53 AM (xRKGN)
9
Uh, no, Some Guy. We knew that the Oil for Food program was flawed before the invasion. Go read your history. We also knew the sanctions were flawed. Some of us, and I'm one of them, applauded Bush when he got the weapons inspectors back into Iraq.
But the difference, and this was my major point, was that Clinton did have Saddam contained, as we found out and, as much as he thought we would be better off without Saddam, he didn't go to war. Bush did. He ignored the advice of many people and threw us into a meat grinder that doesn't seem to have a good end.
But, as yu say, let's cut to the chase. How would the world be better with Saddam still in power?
1. We would not have lost 3000+ KIA.
2. We would not have tens of thousands WIA.
3. We would not be spending, what is the number now, $4 billion a month? (Remember, Wolfowitz, one of the PNAC geniuses, said this war wouldn't cost us a dime. Not one dime. I don't know about you, Some Guy, but I bounced a few checks in my day, but never for a couple trillion dollars. That is a big bag of wrong there.)
4. We might have actually succeeded in Afghanistan by now.
5. We wouldn't have created a major training ground for terrorists.
6. We wouldn't have handed Iran a major victory in expanding their influence in the Mideast.
All those are the fruits of Bush's poisoned tree. Was Saddam a great guy? No. But going to war to oust him, especially the way Bush went about it, has made us less safe, not more safe.
Posted by: David Terrenoire at April 06, 2007 12:01 PM (kxecL)
10
Some Guy,
Just a bit of rhetorical advice. When you respond to someone with
"Yeah, whatever, dude. Get a clue."
it makes you sound less than intellectually acute and thereby undercuts the seriousness of your argument.
Just a suggestion.
Posted by: David Terrenoire at April 06, 2007 12:07 PM (kxecL)
11
DT: are you telling me that you know EXACTLY how things would have turned out in the World had Saddam been let to remain in power? We had no idea what was going on in his regime. Why take the chance?
Yeah, that's right, we're less safe because a major supporter of terrorism sleeps with the fishes and there's 2 fledgling democracies in the ME. Yet, we're less safe.
So why hasn't the US been attacked if we're less safe?
Iraq is a breeding ground for al-qaeda now? Good! They're all in one place. They think it's the central front, our Military is there trying to kill them, and this is bad why?
I don't care who is president. Karl Marx could have been in office on 9/11 and I would have supported the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq.
You guys don't like Bush so you don't like the wars. Grow up.
Posted by: Some Guy at April 06, 2007 12:26 PM (Pt20J)
12
Folks, I have strick posting rules against profanity, and just deleted several posts a ton of it.
Either learn to communicate your ideas without profanity (and preferably, without personal attacks), or run the risk of being banned.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at April 06, 2007 12:27 PM (HcgFD)
13
Some Guy,
You say you're a journalist? I'm going to go out on limb here and say it's not for Highlights.
I'll tell you what. If you can, without looking, tell me why George HW Bush called Joe Wilson a hero, then I'll concede that you do actually read history books.
As it is, with your profanity, ad hominem attacks and all caps screeching, all you're proving is that you're a jerk.
But we knew that.
Posted by: David Terrenoire at April 06, 2007 12:30 PM (kxecL)
14
>>Bush admitted that there is no evidence that Saddam was behind 9/11. Beyond the painful fiasco that is his signature issue, his other scandals are piling up so deep that we have trouble keeping track of them.>>
Name some scandals. In fact, just one No, not made up ones like Joe Wilson and Val Plame or judges getting fired. But real scandals that involve actual legal wrongdoing. Scooter Libby and..... that it? That all you got. A clue: A SCANDAL IS NOT WHEN THE PREZ DOES SOMETHING YOU DISAGREE WITH. Got it?
Posted by: Some Guy at April 06, 2007 12:32 PM (Pt20J)
15
And I'll make another guess here, Some Guy. As much as you say you support the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, I'm willing to put money on the fact that the closest you've been to a uniform is a Burger King paper hat.
That's just a guess. I could be wrong.
And your vocabulary and command of the language indicates you may just be in the right age group to volunteer.
Posted by: David Terrenoire at April 06, 2007 12:35 PM (kxecL)
16
Yeah, Highlights. Good reference. Remember reading that at my dentist's office when I was a kid.
>>If you can, without looking, tell me why George HW Bush called Joe Wilson a hero, then I'll concede that you do actually read history books.
What does that have to do with Wilson lying all over the NY Times?
Posted by: Some Guy at April 06, 2007 12:37 PM (Pt20J)
17
>>>I'm willing to put money on the fact that the closest you've been to a uniform is a Burger King paper hat.
That's just a guess. I could be wrong.>>
Ah, the chickenh**k argument. So I guess, DT, I can't go to the doctor's office because I don't have a medical degree? May I call the police even though I've never been a cop?
My command of the language: Wow, aren't we so smug? So do you sit around sipping tea and munching on crumpets reading Jane Austen while pining for the pre-Bush days when the world was just one big rainbow? Yeah, thought so.
Posted by: Some Guy at April 06, 2007 12:40 PM (Pt20J)
18
CY: Often read the blog. Rarely comment. I'm in a "mood" today. Sorry for the cursing, but these lefties...they drive me freakin' crazy, man!
Posted by: Some Guy at April 06, 2007 12:47 PM (Pt20J)
19
Some Guy.
Call me old fashioned, but I was raised with the sense of obligation and duty that said you serve your country.
When I run into a young man who says he supports the Iraq war, especially as vehemently as you do, and yet he lets others do his fighting, I find that has a tinge of the blowhard and more than a bit of cowardice to it. So yes, the chickenh**k argument. It has nothing to do with going to the doc without a medical degree or calling the police even though you're not a cop.
It does mean sending other young men to fight in your place. I find that dishonorable. Apparently you don't. As Twain said, a difference of opinion is what makes a horse race.
And no, can't say I've ever had a crumpet or read Jane Austen. But I have eaten snake in the Darien Province and was shortlisted to write Tommy Franks' memoirs (I didn't get the contract, but it was a compliment to be considered). And I'm also invited every year (the only enlisted man to land this invitation) to shoot competitively at Fort Butner with graduates of the service academies.
Those guys don't care much for chickenh**ks, either.
As for the question about Joe Wilson, if you knew anything about Ambassador Wilson you'd also know what he did during the first Gulf War, that's what makes my question relevant.
Posted by: David Terrenoire at April 06, 2007 12:58 PM (kxecL)
20
Great, so Wilson was a regular old Geo. Washington back in 1991. So what? Doesn't change recent events, does it?
Posted by: Some Guy at April 06, 2007 01:02 PM (Pt20J)
21
Great, so Wilson was a regular old Geo. Washington back in 1991. So what? Doesn't change recent events, does it?
Here's a guy who went nose to nose with Saddam, made the dictator back down and freed people Saddam had taken hostage. A guy whose family has spent serving this country, sometimes at great peril, and all you can say is "What have you done for me lately?"
A real American, that's what you are.
Posted by: David Terrenoire at April 06, 2007 01:10 PM (kxecL)
22
David:
Please keep up with the facts. The facts are that before the war Wilson said that Sadaam had WMD. During his Senate testimony he said that Iraq had been seeking stuff from Niger. He kept the lies for the press and the campaign.
Posted by: davod at April 06, 2007 02:01 PM (951r6)
23
davod,
I never said otherwise. I just hate when idiots rip a man who has served his country honorably and with courage (his critics would say grandstanding and I can believe that).
That Wilson testified to WMD before the war, well, I can believe that because that's what the intelligence was telling us, wasn't it? I haven't seen his testimony on the Niger yellowcake and would appreciate a link if you can provide one. It's not that I don't trust you, it's that I'd like to read the testimony myself. But I'm surprised as it goes against what he says he found when he went to Niger and what intelligence identified as a forged doc at the time. And the CIA did ask the administration to remove the yellowcake claim from a speech in December, a month before the SOTU speech, and they did. Why would they do that if Wilson said there was truth to the Niger story? And then, if he had testified, why would he say otherwise in the Times? Wouldn't he know that the transcript (see, kids, this is why transcripts are so important) would prove he'd said something else under oath?
It's not that I don't believe you, davod, it's just that this doesn't pass the smell test to me.
I read a lot, but I can't read everything so if you can, help me out here.
Posted by: David Terrenoire at April 06, 2007 02:17 PM (kxecL)
24
davod,
I've done an admittedly quick search for "Wilson testimony WMD" and "Wilson testimony Niger yellowcake" and could find nothing that backs up what you say are facts.
I'm not saying the transcripts, or even news stories, aren't there, I'm just saying that if he did indeed testify that Iraq had pursued yellowcake from Niger, that would have been a big story and I simply can't find anything to back it up.
Help me out here.
Posted by: David Terrenoire at April 06, 2007 02:41 PM (kxecL)
25
Oh, I did find one thing that I should correct in my own comment:
Apparently, George Tenet signed off on the yellowcake claim in the NIE of October 1st, but on October 7 asked the administration to remove the claim from a speech. I don't know what happened in those seven days, but it was enough for the admin to drop the claim from October's speech but not January's SOTU address.
And I did find that Colin Powell, in his presentation to the UN, refused to use the yellowcake story, calling it BS, if I recall correctly.
But that has no bearing on Wilson's testimony, so I wait for a link to the transcript.
Posted by: David Terrenoire at April 06, 2007 02:48 PM (kxecL)
26
But, overall, Saddam was contained and we were in a far better place then than we are now.
That would be decade+ long deployments with no end in sight correct?
How many decades of sitting on Saddam were you willing to accept?
Posted by: Purple Avenger at April 06, 2007 04:06 PM (22lCG)
27
Purple Avenger:
How many decades of sitting on Saddam were you willing to accept?
For 3,500 troops and $500 billion? When North Korea, Iran, and Pakistan are actively building or selling nukes? When the Iraq civil war was suppressed? When Saddam wasn't a threat to his neighbors, much less the US? When Osama is loose in Afghanistan? When the Taliban is hanging on in Afghanistan?
Yes, most of us would have been willing to sit on Saddam for awhile yet.
Posted by: Lex Steele at April 06, 2007 04:29 PM (xRKGN)
28
What Lex said.
And now that we're there, I have to ask how long should we stay? Another two years, three, ten? And at what cost? No one has told us this, just given lip service to victory, which seems to change day to day.
And before you succumb to the lefty stereotype that I'm some Kum By Ya peacenik, understand that I think the consequences of withdrawal are disastrous. I'm all for a surge, but I want to see a surge of 200K men, not 20. If this war is so vital, and I believe it is, I want to see young men like Some Guy drafted and sent to relieve those soldiers and Marines who are on their third and fourth tour. I want to see taxes raised in order to pay for the war rather than borrowing from China. I want to see the US committed to victory, not just hoping it'll all work out if Bush just talks tough.
That's why I'm angry. Once we decided to go, Rumsfeld, Cheney, Bush, Perle, Wolfowitz, Kristol and others decided they knew more than our military - they ran Shinseki out, ignored the Powell doctrine, disregarded DOD plans for the occupation and put all their hope in Rumsfeld's transformation which meant fast, with few troops, and on the cheap. No sacrifices asked of the American people, oh no.
Now, because of their hubris, we're stuck with no good out.
You ask if we would have been willing to contain Saddam for another decade. From where we are now, containment looks like a cakewalk.
Posted by: David Terrenoire at April 06, 2007 04:46 PM (tk0b2)
29
Yes, most of us would have been willing to sit on Saddam for awhile yet.
Nice dodge that doesn't answer my question. Precisely how many additional decades would "awhile" be?
One? Three? Five? Pick a number and defend it.
Posted by: Purple Avenger at April 06, 2007 06:30 PM (22lCG)
30
Purple,
You're asking a hypothetical question that has no meaning as to where we are today.
What you should really ask is this: "If the administration had told the American people that this war would take five or ten years, cost a few trillion dollars and thousands of KIA, would the American people have opted for war rather than containment?"
I think we both know the answer.
For me to pick a number and defend is, excuse me for saying this, just stupid. But if you asked me if I'd choose a diplomatic solution, backed by military, over all-out combat for an indefinite length of time, I would choose the former. I think most sane people would.
Of course, your mileage may vary.
Posted by: David Terrenoire at April 06, 2007 06:40 PM (tk0b2)
31
Lex, you can make statements like this today: "When Saddam wasn't a threat to his neighbors, much less the US?" because we have gone in and confirmed.
Before going in to Iraq it the main question of the day. Did Iraq have WMD? Biologicals? Nukes? We still have not confirmed where the anthrax originated.
As I remember, the big fear of the day was, will Sadam give any of his weapons to the Jihadis? Any group? Al Qaeda? And, will they use them against us and/or any other western country?
Revisionist history, Lex.
Posted by: CoRev at April 06, 2007 07:34 PM (Hr52v)
32
CoRev,
As I remember, the inspectors were in Iraq (thanks to Bush, credit where it's due) and finding bupkis.
As we look back at it, they were right, but Bush didn't want to wait. He warned the inspectors to leave and then went to war. So it's not so much revisionist history as it is selective. Lex chooses to believe what we knew versus what we suspected.
But we're talking actual war here CoRev, not a video game or cap guns in the woods. In my world, war is a last resort, not something you choose because you suspect someone is doing something. You have to have proof.
Think about it. If I suspect my neighbor is trying to kill me, in spite of all the other neighbors telling me it's not so, then I burn my neighbor's house down, I don't think the police will be sympathetic to my explanation that sure we know he wasn't trying to kill me now, but that's all revisionist history.
I think they'd lock me up.
Posted by: David Terrenoire at April 06, 2007 08:02 PM (tk0b2)
33
CoRev:
There wasn't any compelling evidence of WMD or of operational ties between Saddam and Al Qaeda. Riddle me this: why did Bush and his crew start talking about Iraq all of a sudden in 2002? You can't name a shred of evidence that inspired this, because there is none. The Niger uranium hoax and the testimony of a known lunatic called 'Screwball' were the backbone of their case, and both were light as air. The testimony of Saddam's son-in-law, Hussein Kamel, who was not crazy, flatly denied WMD, so they ignored it.
The facts were being fixed around policy.
As David T. pointed out, Bush also yanked the inspectors in the midst of indepth investigations. Why?
Posted by: Lex Steele at April 06, 2007 09:05 PM (xRKGN)
34
Purple:
Nice dodge that doesn't answer my question. Precisely how many additional decades would "awhile" be? One? Three? Five? Pick a number and defend it.
Initially until Saddam passed away or was deposed, and longer if need be. Sitting on him was effortless compared to what we're doing now. You know my defense, it is the reasons I already gave you.
But I think you were too clever by half. Tell me, how long do you think it would have been worth sitting on Saddam, in lieu of the situation we have now? Pick a number and defend it.
Posted by: Lex Steele at April 06, 2007 09:30 PM (xRKGN)
35
David, don't presume to know my background. When you say: "But we're talking actual war here CoRev, not a video game or cap guns in the woods. In my world, war is a last resort, not something you choose because you suspect someone is doing something. You have to have proof." What part of the 9/11 attack are we forgetting? How long should we wait for the next one while sitting on Saddam?
Lex, we knew nothing then. We know it today ONLY because we sent to Iraq. There would have been doubts even today, if nothing would have been done to Iraq.
Rant and rave all you want, but we are there. That is history. Everything else is personal conjecture. Mine too!
Make serious suggestions for improving the current situation, today. Anything less is just carping AND revisionist history.
Posted by: CoRev at April 07, 2007 07:00 AM (Hr52v)
36
CoRev,
I wasn't making any assumptions about you or your background. I was stating my position and mine alone.
If you'll look up at my comments, you'll see what I would propose. A few hundred thousand more soldiers, an across-the-board draft, and taxes raised to pay for this fiasco.
But since we don't seem to have the political huevos to do that, I don't see the purpose of staying the course and chewing up more fine young men and women.
And I don't see it as carping or revisionist history to suggest we hold those who led us into this mess accountable. This was a disaster from the get-go, and looking back at the mistakes that were made should, politics aside, make you deeply angry. If you think I'm casting this discussion as one of Democrats and Republicans, you've missed my point entirely.
And please don't bring 9/11 into a talk about Iraq. That's cheap emotionalism and irrelevant to the war. You know that and I know that. And I believe Bush knew that, too.
To think otherwise is to be played for a chump.
Posted by: David Terrenoire at April 07, 2007 10:50 AM (tk0b2)
37
CoRev: Lex, we knew nothing then. We know it today ONLY because we sent to Iraq. There would have been doubts even today, if nothing would have been done to Iraq.
The invasion was the right plan because "we knew nothing then?" That is the worst defense I've ever heard. We were learning plenty from the inspections, at very little cost. We are currently uncertain about the WMD programs of several nations. Should we invade all of them?
Posted by: Lex Steele at April 07, 2007 01:07 PM (xRKGN)
38
Want me to name two? Can you guess which two would be
Posted by: CoRev at April 07, 2007 02:09 PM (Hr52v)
39
Pushed the wrong key!
Want me to name two? Can you guess which two they would be?
Your grasp pf history is astonishing. Ignoring the impact of 9/11 in planning and thinking is amazing revisionism.
What we were learning from the inspectors was a little suspect. We gave Saddam more credit than he deserved, but going back and pointing to bits and pieces of evidence after the fact, priceless.
You are dealing in logical fallacies, (i.e. Ø Composition: because the attributes of the parts of a whole have a certain property, it is argued that the whole has that property.) Cherry picking points to make a false conclusion that the whole was in error. Ignoring the impact of 9/11 in planning, and thinking of 01-03, naive or deliberate subversion of history.
Lex, your better than that.
Posted by: CoRev at April 07, 2007 02:38 PM (Hr52v)
40
CoRev: Do I want you to name two of what? I don't understand.
Your grasp pf history is astonishing. Ignoring the impact of 9/11 in planning and thinking is amazing revisionism.
The DoD just released a document stating that there was no operational relationship between Iraq and Al Qaeda, which as you know was responsible for 911. So how do you figure 911 warranted the Iraq invasion?
What we were learning from the inspectors was a little suspect.
The initial WMD investigation results were dead on. There were no WMD. At any rate, you are justifying 3,500 soldiers and $500 billion. "A little suspect" is an insult to the soldiers who gave their lives in Iraq.
We gave Saddam more credit than he deserved, but going back and pointing to bits and pieces of evidence after the fact, priceless.
Who gave Saddam credit for what? It's hard to understand some of your writing. I'll be happy to reply if you can clarify. What bits and pieces of evidence did I give, and what did I leave out?
You are dealing in logical fallacies, (i.e. Ø Composition: because the attributes of the parts of a whole have a certain property, it is argued that the whole has that property.) Cherry picking points to make a false conclusion that the whole was in error.
What whole and parts do you mean? What am I cherry picking?
Ignoring the impact of 9/11 in planning, and thinking of 01-03, naive or deliberate subversion of history.
I addressed this above. Saddam had nothing to do with 911, so 911 does not validate the Iraq invasion.
911 makes the Iraq misadventure worse, because when we should have been getting Osama we created a new front in the war on terrorism in the what was the only secular state in the region. Now we have to worry about it becoming another fanatical state.
Posted by: Lex Steele at April 07, 2007 03:43 PM (xRKGN)
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Lex, reading is fundamental. I said: "Ignoring the impact of 9/11 in planning, and thinking of 01-03, naive or deliberate subversion of history."
So let me clarify. 9/11 is an event. Ignoring the impacts of that event, 9/11, in the thinking and planning leading up to our attack on Iraq is either naive or a deliberate subversion of history.
No where, at any time did I say 9/11 was linked to Iraqi actions or that Iraq was responsible for 9/11.
Posted by: CoRev at April 07, 2007 04:49 PM (Hr52v)
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CoRev:
Lex, reading is fundamental
As is writing.
Ignoring the impacts of that event, 9/11, in the thinking and planning leading up to our attack on Iraq is either naive or a deliberate subversion of history.
No where, at any time did I say 9/11 was linked to Iraqi actions or that Iraq was responsible for 9/11.
911 made the Iraq invasion appropriate, even though Iraq was uninvolved with 911? What kind of reasoning is that?
Iraq was largely unassociated with jihad, at least before we invaded. Saudi Arabia contributed most of the 9/11 hijackers, and the wife of the Saudi ambassador was caught writing checks to a person involved in 911. Pakistan has been selling nuclear bomb components. Iran is developing nukes. The only involvement of Iraq with terrorism to my knowledge is Saddam contributing money to the families of Palestinian suicide bombers.
How do you figure Iraq was an important front in the war on fanatical Islam?
Posted by: Lex Steele at April 07, 2007 06:06 PM (xRKGN)
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CoRev,
I don't forget 9/11. If I'd been younger I would have reenlisted. As it was, I volunteered to clean up the Towers just as I had helped clean up after Hurricane Floyd flooded the eastern part of our state. The only reason I didn't go was because Guiliani asked us not to come. I still wish I had gone. I needed to do something.
I told my wife, "I want to kick some raghead ass."
But I was acting out of anger and outrage. Working from anger is stupid and leads you to do stupid things. Good foreign policy, especially committing a nation to war, is not something you should do in anger, but in the cold light of day, when you have the facts and you know there is no alternative.
So while 9/11 might have made us look hard at Iraq, all the intel at the time told us they weren't involved. I appreciate your anger because I share it, but using 9/11 to justify going into this war only illuminates this administration's petulance and criminal disregard for the people who serve in uniform.
Posted by: David Terrenoire at April 07, 2007 06:25 PM (tk0b2)
44
Lex, your reality is not mine. Where did I say this? "911 made the Iraq invasion appropriate...", What I did say was 9/11 had an impact on thinking and planning. That's a long way from what you wrote.
David, did I say where I was on 9/11? I really don't remember because I have been on several of these threads the past few days. Just know it was REAL close to one of the sites. Regardless, you are reading motives into me and the administration that are not supported by anything I have seen. You may be xferring your own anger onto others.
I am not sure of what your motives are other than ranting about the administration. For what purpose. Goes for you also, Lex.
Posted by: CoRev at April 07, 2007 08:09 PM (Hr52v)
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CoRev,
I'm going to answer you honestly because I think you deserve it.
What's my agenda? Well, I have several.
1. To show up on an admittedly conservative site and demonstrate that not all liberals are Rosie O'Donnell moonbats. Far from it.
2. To inspire people to look at the facts and to hold this administration accountable for what I believe are monstrous crimes and misdemeanors. What you call ranting, I think of as a call for justice.
3. To have an honest exchange and debate. I don't know everything and, frankly, it hones my own argument to be challenged by people from another perspective.
4. It's shameful, I admit, but I enjoy kicking punks like Some Guy to the curb. But that is a minor reason for my soending time here. Very minor.
As for you, I wonder why you keep taking things I say personally. Did I question where you were on 9/11? No, and frankly, I don't care. Even the French on 9/12 expressed solidarity with the US.
No, I was responding to reaction to 9/11 with our decision to go to war with Iraq. I was saying that forming foreign policy based on anger was a mistake. I told my personal story to demonstrate that I was as angry as anyone.
This isn't a contest of who cares more. This is hashing out what is right and what is wrong, how you see things and how I see things. I think those who continue to apologize for this admin's SNAFU's are carrying water for people who don't deserve it.
Why you constantly see my posts as somehow questioning your past, your present or your future bona fides is a mystery. Step back a bit and take a breath. This isn't personal.
But, if you want to get personal, you've made cryptic comments about your backgropund and your physical closeness to the Towers. I have no reason to question those things nor have I. Quite honestly, I don't care. But I have to say, it's easy to posture under a pseudonym. You know my name. you can Google me and verify the basic facts. I can't say the same for you. Not that you're under any obligation, but if you keep being coy about your background, it does make that part of the discussion.
It's you who keeps injecting your personal story into this dialogue, not me.
Posted by: David Terrenoire at April 07, 2007 09:56 PM (tk0b2)
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David said: "...I think those who continue to apologize for this admin's SNAFU's..." Where in my discussion have I apologized for this admin's snafus?
David, how am I to interpret: "But we're talking actual war here CoRev, not a video game or cap guns in the woods." Is it personal? Is my name associated in a snide remark? Is it a snide remark?
And I am being coy by using a pseudonym? So be it. I am coy.
Posted by: CoRev at April 08, 2007 06:42 AM (Hr52v)
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CoRev:
"...I think those who continue to apologize for this admin's SNAFU's..." Where in my discussion have I apologized for this admin's snafus?
Wow, and my family has on its crest "The Movie Is About Me" but your finding a personal assault in every other sentence takes home the trophy for blind egocentrism. This is not all about you, CoRev, as much as you'd like to frame this as a personal attack, it's not. I don't know you, I don't care where you've been, what you've done, if you have two legs or four, I just don't care. I care about this issue. If your background gives you a certain insight into the subject, by all means, that's relevant, but you haven't offered up anything but cryptic chatter and some sort of aggrieved victimhood.
But we're talking actual war here CoRev, not a video game or cap guns in the woods...
That's the quote. Now, if I'd said, "We're talking a serious dinner here, CoRev, not just cupcakes and ice cream" would I be criticizing your culinary skills? No.
If I'd said, "This is a real marathon, CoRev, not just a jog around the park" would that be a slam on your lack of exercise? Not a bit.
If I'd said, "This is serious country music, CoRev, not a formulaic piece of overproduced Nashville crap" is that a critique of your tastes in music? No, it's not.
"But we're talking actual war here CoRev, not a video game or cap guns in the woods" was meant to convey the seriousness of what we've done. If you're so sensitive that you see that as somehow a reflection on you, a person I don't know a thing about (except being amazingly self-absorbed), then I suggest your problems don't lie in what I've written, but in what you think you've read. To paraphrase Big Bill, our trouble lies not in our stars, CoRev, but in ourselves.
And I don't mind you being coy. But if you have relevant experience, bring it up. Just hinting at your background tells us nothing except that, well, you're being coy. Not very interesting or relevant, is it?
Posted by: David Terrenoire at April 08, 2007 09:01 AM (tk0b2)
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David, interesting gambit this personal thing. What happens when we stop feeding you?
Posted by: CoRev at April 08, 2007 12:45 PM (Hr52v)
49
CoRev: Where did I say this? "911 made the Iraq invasion appropriate...", What I did say was 9/11 had an impact on thinking and planning. That's a long way from what you wrote.
I don't understand what your justification for the war is then. If you tell me what it is, I'll be happy to respond.
Posted by: Lex Steele at April 08, 2007 05:59 PM (xRKGN)
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Lex, buddy, you still don't get it. I don't have to justify the war to you. I didn't cause it. I wasn't part of the decision process, and neither were you. I can't nor won't take responsibility for it.
I'm outta here!
Posted by: CoRev at April 08, 2007 09:39 PM (Hr52v)
51
And the beat goes on.Its Dubya's fault,naw slick
willie caused it.Folks only history will judge
if it was worth it or not.Basicly Iraq was a line
in the sand,do it there not here.85% of Americans
don't have a clue that we are fighting for our
way of life as we know it and for the Western
world.Check out the inroads Islam has made in all
western countries,go on check it out.And then
remember the words of Ayman al Zawahiri" Convert
to Islam or die" words to remember..Iraq,we have
been held to screwed ROE and political correct-
ness you, don't fight that way!!And you can't fight with a JAG officer watching your every move.
We need to win no if's or buts period...
Posted by: Jack Sparrow at April 08, 2007 10:59 PM (L4HGI)
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Nice Story. Now Comes the SAPI Truth
Via Instapundit, I ran into this article on Gizmodo, where they claim an Apple Ipod saved the life of a soldier by slowing a bullet that hit him in the chest:
He was on patrol in Iraq when he met an armed insurgent carrying an AK-47. Both opened fire, and the bullet heading toward Kevin hit his chest right where his iPod was, which was enough to slow down the bullet to not pierce entirely through the body armor.
It's a great story, and one that is great word-of-mouth marketing for Apple. Too bad it probably isn't true.
Our soldiers wear Interceptor body armor manufactured by a company called
Point Blank. Interceptor armor used by our troops in Iraq is composed of an outer tactical vest (OTV) that will stop 9mm bullets, and small arms protective inserts (SAPI) plates made of boron carbide ceramic and backed with bullet-resistant liner that cover the chest, back and sides. These SAPI plates are designed to stop three 7.62 bullets.
An Ipod? Not so much.
If the soldier was shot in a head-on confrontation as the story seems to describe, the SAPI plate on his chest is responsible for saving his life, not a piece of fruity electronic equipment.
Update: Is this story merely an urban legend? I just got a response back from JOC PAO (Joint Operations, Public Affairs in Iraq) suggesting that may be the case:
Hi Bob,
We got another query in on this story yesterday, and have sent it out to
3rd IDs units to see if this guy exists. We have not yet heard anything
back.
I suspect this is one of life's Urban Myths....
However if we get an answer back from the division I'll forward it on to
you!
Regards
Tracy Peyman
Lt Cdr RN
JOC PAO OIC
MNC-I
Something tells me this is likely going to end up on Snopes as a hoax.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
08:40 AM
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While I agree it was probably the Interceptor BA that saved his life, if the bullet was going fast enough to trash through the IPOD like that, the IPOD probably did save him from injury.
Posted by: SGT Jeff (USAR) at April 06, 2007 10:58 AM (yiMNP)
2
I disagree,
The ipod is soft plastic (thin) and backed by very thin aluminum. Looking at the picture shows that the bullet went through the upper corner, missing the harder internal parts. While I agree that it slowed the bullet some, The vest probably would have absorbed that much more impact without problem.
Of course we'll never know for sure will we.
Posted by: Retired Navy at April 06, 2007 11:14 AM (0EcTE)
3
It's also very reminiscent of the story that the late James Doohan of "Star Trek" fame told of being saved on D-Day when he was a Canadian soldier, by a metal cigarette case he was carrying, which stopped the bullet. If this new story is indeed a hoax, I wonder if Scotty was indeed the inspiration.
Posted by: Ed Driscoll at April 06, 2007 01:25 PM (W0Vxv)
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An iPod couldn't stop a .25 Who are these people kidding?
Posted by: Purple Avenger at April 06, 2007 06:33 PM (22lCG)
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Heh. CNN contacted me about this, wanting my opinion.
If it's true, it's a great *story* regardless of the absolute truths in the issue of what saved who's life.
If it's faked, well, shame on 'em.
But that iPod didn't bleed off enough energy to make a significant difference in the penetrative ability of a standard military ball round, especially at the asserted ranges.
That said - if it happened as described, the soldier may well believe it, or see it as SGT Jeff does.
I do think, based on my email, that there's a lot of electrons being expended on the subject.
Want to get better protection than that iPod? I'll suggest one of these. At least the plate there is hardened steel, imbued by a higher power. 8^)
Posted by: John of Argghhh! at April 07, 2007 09:51 AM (9FPYz)
6
Who knows how fast the bullet was moving when it hit? From far enough away, the kinetic energy could have been so reduced that even a matchbook might have substantially slowed it further.
I'm put it in the 'possible, but there's a lot of missing info' category.
Posted by: John at April 07, 2007 04:33 PM (T84VL)
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April 05, 2007
Under Siege in Idahoistan
Quagmire!
For years, ATV-riding, gun-toting sport shooters have flouted gun laws in part of Idaho's high desert by taking pot shots at ground squirrels and other animals.
Now, officials say, they're also setting their sights on National Guard tanks that train in the area.
Rifles and pistols have been banned in a 68,000-acre area of the Snake River Birds of Prey National Conservation Area since 1996.
But the federal Bureau of Land Management is considering expanding the gun-restricted area by 41,000 acres to try to limit shootings at Idaho Army National Guard troops who report slugs bouncing off their tanks on a regular basis.
"There's a segment of the shooting community that will shoot at anything that moves," said John Sullivan, the area's manager.
Faced with inadequate manpower and renegades that won’t respect the rule of law, we must abandon Idaho.
Thee is no word as of yet on whether or not Speaker of the
Knessett Nancy Pelosi and Congressman John Murtha have been able to come up with a suitable plan to redeploy the Idaho National Guard.
Pelosi is said to be considering retreating to neighboring Oregon, but is concerned over recent "
friendly fire" incidents.
Because of this, Murtha is said to be exploring the option of stationing the Idaho National Guard in Montreal, where a quick reaction force could respond in just one day and 13 hours (at highway driving speeds) to any emergency in Boise.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
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I've been saying for years that Idaho is just like Vietnam! Only with potatoes instead of rice paddys. Anyway people from Idaho (Idahois? Idahoians? Idahoites? Idahoers?) are too savage for democracy. I say, NO BLOOD FOR RUSSETTS!
Posted by: BohicaTwentyTwo at April 05, 2007 11:21 AM (oC8nQ)
2
Why I don't think it's a political agenda I can't say (I don't have any particular feelings toward Montel one way or the other), but it appears to me he just knows "conflict" sells. It's inappropriate, especially for a veteran, to ambush military guests but then, that's daytime TV for ya: Schlock. Lowest common denominator entertainment, not news.
Posted by: DoorHold at April 05, 2007 12:09 PM (+k9lE)
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Why don't we just let the National Guard shoot back? I'm pretty sure a couple of rounds of 20-mm or similar would result in the only evidence that they ATV shooters were ever there being the puddles of urine and the smoking trails the other way.
Posted by: SGT Jeff (USAR) at April 05, 2007 12:26 PM (yiMNP)
4
I take your point, CY, but the difference lies in the fact that Idaho is ours and fixing it is our responsibility.
Note, though, the lack of success even here in one of our own states. How the hell can we fix Iraq if we can't even fix Idaho?
Posted by: Doc Washboard at April 05, 2007 02:57 PM (YbI6D)
5
I'm with Sgt. Jeff. Just redefine the ROE and I guarantee those trigger-happy Idahoans would stop taking pot shots at those tanks.
And what kind of idiot shoots at a tank? Let the NG cull the herd.
Posted by: David Terrenoire at April 05, 2007 03:34 PM (kxecL)
Posted by: Zhombre at April 05, 2007 09:00 PM (v72Rn)
7
Ground squirrels? They're not ground squirrels, they're Whistle Pigs. Damn media can't even get that right.
Posted by: Tim at April 06, 2007 08:00 AM (WiHUE)
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What the hell are ATV riders doing in a NG training area? Sounds like a good way to get squished, if you ask me.
Posted by: Raging_Dave at April 10, 2007 02:14 PM (zQsFa)
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Montel Williams: At it Again
As a rule, I couldn't care less about daytime television, but the agenda-driven jihad of talk show host Montel Williams continues, once more attempting to use military veterans and their families as political props.
On March 12, I commented on Montel's
ambush of military families, that saw some family members leave in tears before the taping was over, and at least one escorted out by security.
This morning, a reader tipped me to
this article, discussing the experiences of Keli Frasier, a 24-year-old who served 11 months in Iraq and came home with symptoms later diagnosed as post traumatic stress disorder (PTSD).
This is the part of the article that caught my emailer's eye:
For Frasier, the sharpest memories are of moments that never made the air from the show taped in New York.
When she told Williams she was treated well by the Department of Veterans Affairs, he seemed to lose interest and moved quickly to another segment, she said.
During a commercial break, though, he gestured to her and commented, “This soldier’s not going to complain,” Frasier said.
She was whisked away to the airport and never spoke again to Williams, she said.
This is at least the second time Williams has attempted to use military veterans and their families as political pawns, a move especially despicable, considering that Williams himself is a veteran and knows—or should know—what these servicemen and their families are experiencing.
As now demonstrated twice in less than a month, Williams has chosen to obscure any anecdotal evidence that conflicts with his political views, by simply editing them out of the show.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
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There has to be more to this than just ratings. Is Williams a Muslim?
Posted by: davod at April 05, 2007 09:22 AM (951r6)
2
No, davod, scum like Montel have been around for a very long time.
Posted by: pst314 at April 05, 2007 12:09 PM (OA547)
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pst314 is right! "Scum like Montel have been around for a very long time"...look how old Carter and Jack Murtha are. Montel was a Navy Officer. He musta served on a swift-boat with John Kerry.
Posted by: JihadGene at April 05, 2007 12:42 PM (FTAjp)
4
Montel was a Navy officer (Crypie I believe) at my Command up near Baltimore. He started a program for families in Baltimore and made his bones that way. He got a lot of press and left the Navy and parlayed this press into where he is now. I met someone who knew him when he was at the Command who told me the story. He strikes me as a guy who forgot his roots.
Posted by: Navyone at April 07, 2007 05:10 PM (gRaOX)
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April 04, 2007
Return to Sender
Okay, I'll admit it... Nancy "International Woman of Diplomacy" Pelosi is much more entertaining than Denny whats-his-name ever was. Hastert was relatively quiet, and didn't give anyone much of a reason to talk about him as he did his job.
Nancy? A veritable
comedy of errors:
Pelosi, who met in Damascus with Syrian President Bashar Assad over the objections of US President George W. Bush, said she brought a message to Assad from Olmert saying that Israel was ready for peace talks.
"We were very pleased with the reassurances we received from the president [Assad] that he was ready to resume the peace process. He was ready to engage in negotiations for peace with Israel," Pelosi said after meeting Assad.
She said the meeting with the Syrian leader "enabled us to communicate a message from Prime Minister Olmert that Israel was ready to engage in peace talks as well."
According to officials in the Prime Minister's Office, however, this was not what transpired during her meeting with Olmert.
The officials said Olmert had told Pelosi that he thought her trip to Damascus was a mistake, and that when she asked - nevertheless - whether he had a message for Assad, Olmert said Syria should first stop supporting terrorism and "act like a normal country," and only then would Israel be willing to hold discussions.
The first part of that message, the officials said, was lost in what was reported from Damascus on Wednesday.
Madame Speaker ignored the advice of two heads of state in order to meet with a terrorist-supporting dictator, and once she met with said dictator, she delivered a message so inaccurate to was necessary to publicly correct her.
Pelosi has botched her unwanted and unwelcome attempt at international diplomacy, but she did manage to at least get Israel and Syria to agree on one thing... her incompetence.
Update: In an editorial this morning, the
Washington Post blasts
Nancy Pelosi's foolish shuttle diplomacy:
...Ms. Pelosi not only misrepresented Israel's position but was virtually alone in failing to discern that Mr. Assad's words were mere propaganda.
... Mr. Bush said that thanks to the speaker's freelancing Mr. Assad was getting mixed messages from the United States. Ms. Pelosi responded by pointing out that Republican congressmen had visited Syria without drawing presidential censure. That's true enough -- but those other congressmen didn't try to introduce a new U.S. diplomatic initiative in the Middle East. "We came in friendship, hope, and determined that the road to Damascus is a road to peace," Ms. Pelosi grandly declared.
Never mind that that statement is ludicrous: As any diplomat with knowledge of the region could have told Ms. Pelosi, Mr. Assad is a corrupt thug whose overriding priority at the moment is not peace with Israel but heading off U.N. charges that he orchestrated the murder of former Lebanese prime minister Rafiq al-Hariri. The really striking development here is the attempt by a Democratic congressional leader to substitute her own foreign policy for that of a sitting Republican president. Two weeks ago Ms. Pelosi rammed legislation through the House of Representatives that would strip Mr. Bush of his authority as commander in chief to manage troop movements in Iraq. Now she is attempting to introduce a new Middle East policy that directly conflicts with that of the president. We have found much to criticize in Mr. Bush's military strategy and regional diplomacy. But Ms. Pelosi's attempt to establish a shadow presidency is not only counterproductive, it is foolish.
Ed Morrissey also steps away from his normally measured tones at
Captains Quarters and
fires a broadside at Pelosi and the Democrats:
The Democrats, led by Pelosi, have tried to undermine Bush for years. Now that they have the majority in Congress, they can give full vent to their schemes. The efforts of the past couple of months show that the Democrats want to turn the Constitution upside down, strip the executive branch of its power, and make Congress the supreme power in the American system.
Well, sorry, but that's the British system. Perhaps Pelosi would be more comfortable there or in Canada, but here in the US, the elected President has all of the Constitutional authority to conduct foreign policy and command the military. That remains true even when Congress dislikes the policies in both areas.
For those doubting whether or not the
Post editorial and Morrissey's blog entry are accurate in criticising Pelosi and her fellow Democrats for attempting to usurp powers not rightfully theirs, I have a little document I'd like to direct you to, called the Constitution of the United States, specificially,
Article II, Section 2, which enumerate the powers of the Presidency:
Section 2. The President shall be commander in chief of the Army and Navy of the United States, and of the militia of the several states, when called into the actual service of the United States; he may require the opinion, in writing, of the principal officer in each of the executive departments, upon any subject relating to the duties of their respective offices, and he shall have power to grant reprieves and pardons for offenses against the United States, except in cases of impeachment.
He shall have power, by and with the advice and consent of the Senate, to make treaties, provided two thirds of the Senators present concur; and he shall nominate, and by and with the advice and consent of the Senate, shall appoint ambassadors, other public ministers and consuls, judges of the Supreme Court, and all other officers of the United States, whose appointments are not herein otherwise provided for, and which shall be established by law: but the Congress may by law vest the appointment of such inferior officers, as they think proper, in the President alone, in the courts of law, or in the heads of departments.
The President shall have power to fill up all vacancies that may happen during the recess of the Senate, by granting commissions which shall expire at the end of their next session.
The two selections I placed in bold above show that the President,
and only the President, has the authority to command the armed forces and appoint ambassadors to conduct U.S. foreign policy.
Article I, Section 8 defines the scope of the powers of the Congress. The current Democratic Congress, as both Morrissey and the Post note, are attempting to stretch to (and perhaps past) the breaking point the powers afforded them by the Constitution of the United States.
Where this will lead is anyone's guess.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
11:16 PM
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But good thing she wore her hijab like a good lil dhimmi girl....what a disgrace!
Posted by: Angel at April 04, 2007 11:34 PM (fbQNy)
2
Let's see, we have the Speaker of the House, in person, attend a meeting and then report what transpired.
On the other hand, we have unnamed officials report something different about a meeting they did not attend.
Hmm, which one has more credibility? It's a stumper.
And a supporter of George Bush calling anyone else incompetent is pure comedy gold.
Posted by: David Terrenoire at April 05, 2007 09:02 AM (kxecL)
3
David, I think you missed something. The Prime Minister of Isreal said she was off in her dealings. He was there when Pelosi talked to him.
She was in the wrong AND misquoted what was said in Isreal.
Posted by: Retired Navy at April 05, 2007 09:22 AM (JSetw)
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David, I think an offical release by the Isreali Prime Minister is hardly unnamed.
I await your brilliant response.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at April 05, 2007 09:45 AM (9y6qg)
5
Republicans sure didn't mind this kind of stuff when they were doing it:
"…a congressional delegation led by Rep. Dennis Hastert (R-IL) which met with Colombian military officials, promising to “remove conditions on assistance” and complaining about “leftist-dominated” U.S. congresses of years past that “used human rights as an excuse to aid the left in other countries.” Hastert said he would to correct this situation and expedite aid to countries allied in the war on drugs and also encouraged Colombian military officials to “bypass the U.S. executive branch and communicate directly with Congress.”
http://thinkprogress.org/2007/04/04/hastert-colombia/
Posted by: TR at April 05, 2007 10:20 AM (8xzG0)
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A very interesting link, TR, and if accurate (I've caught Think Progress in some whoppers in the past), then Hastert, too, deserves severe condemnation for his role in meddling in foreign.
I would have said so at the time, but as this blog would not be created for another seven years, that proved to be a bit difficult.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at April 05, 2007 10:51 AM (9y6qg)
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Have we caught the Democrat Revolution at its beginnings? They've always placed power over duty, haven't they? They've tried and failed to get rid of Bush and Cheney. They've tried and failed to force Bush or Cheney to "obey" them. So, just go over their heads and take over! There won't be any consequences (for several reasons), so here we are, with a SOTH conducting foreign policy against the wishes of the President and attempting to manage the Armed Forces against the wishes of the Commander In Chief (among other things). One thing they'll need to do to guarantee a successful revolution is to disarm the general population, but they can't do that, right?
Posted by: DoorHold at April 05, 2007 12:22 PM (+k9lE)
8
The two selections I placed in bold above show that the President, and only the President, has the authority to command the armed forces and appoint ambassadors to conduct U.S. foreign policy.
Pelosi wasn't trying to command the armed forces or to appoint an ambassador. There are no constitutional limitations on any citizen, including politicians, from meeting with any foreign power (though this could possibly break some law). Your constitutional argument doesn't hold water.
Posted by: Lex Steele at April 05, 2007 12:50 PM (xRKGN)
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Confederate Yankee,
My brilliant response is this: If you look at your original post, your sources were unnamed.
That was my point.
You've clarified that, and I accept that the PM of Israel says he was misquoted or his position was misstated by Pelosi.
However, the PM of Israel was not in the meeting between Pelosi and Assad, so he can only go by what Pelosi is reported to have said. As anyone who has ever been interviewed knows, even reporters who want the best for you almost always get something wrong. Keep that in mind no matter who you read.
I'm not making a case for Pelosi or this visit. Frankly, I don't know enough about what went on to form an opinion. What I am doing is making a case for more critical thinking on everyone's part.
I'm skeptical of unnamed sources and you should be too. Right or left. Just as I'm skeptical of comments from people who don't have the courage to attach their real names to their opinions. You'll notice I use mine.
How was that? Brilliant enough?
Posted by: David Terrenoire at April 05, 2007 01:12 PM (kxecL)
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Both the House and Senate bills to withdraw troops by a certain deadline infringe mightily upon the Commander-in-Cheif's powers, and my reading of the Constitution is that this directly infringes up his roles as CiC. Congress has the constitutional authority to stop funding the war, of course; but it does not have the authority to tell the President when to withdraw them.
Also, quit trying to misrepresent my argument.
I never stated that there was a constitutional limitation on merely meeting with a foreign government. You are being disingenuous, and intellectually dishonest. there is a clearlimitation on the constitutional authority Pelosi has to make foreign policy (i.e., she has none at all), and she clearly attempted to do just that, as noted by the author of the Post editorial above, who even provided a specific example:
"We came in friendship, hope, and determined that the road to Damascus is a road to peace."
The Executive branch, and the Executive Branch alone, has the Constitutional authority to make foreign policy. She has far exceeded the scope of her powers.
In addition to exceeding her authority, Pelosi has also clearly violated the Logan Act:
Any citizen of the United States, wherever he may be, who, without authority of the United States, directly or indirectly commences or carries on any correspondence or intercourse with any foreign government or any officer or agent thereof, with intent to influence the measures or conduct of any foreign government or of any officer or agent thereof, in relation to any disputes or controversies with the United States, or to defeat the measures of the United States, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than three years, or both.
This section shall not abridge the right of a citizen to apply, himself or his agent, to any foreign government or the agents thereof for redress of any injury which he may have sustained from such government or any of its agents or subjects.
But don't worry Lex: while Pelosi seems just as guilty as she can be, Bush lacks the stones to have DoJ prosecute Pelosi or anyone else who has violated this law.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at April 05, 2007 01:28 PM (9y6qg)
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My brilliant response is this: If you look at your original post, your sources were unnamed.
That was my point.
No, it wasn't unnamed. It was clear as day right there in the excerpt:
According to officials in the Prime Minister's Office, however, this was not what transpired during her meeting with Olmert.
Alternatively, you could have clicked the link, and perhaps noticed the headline, "PMO denies peace message to Assad." PMO refers to the Israeli Prime Minister's Office.
Is anyone else having a problem with this? Nope, just you, David.
But the part of your response that gives me the giggles is this one:
However, the PM of Israel was not in the meeting between Pelosi and Assad, so he can only go by what Pelosi is reported to have said. As anyone who has ever been interviewed knows, even reporters who want the best for you almost always get something wrong. Keep that in mind no matter who you read.
Are you seriously trying to imply that perhaps Olmert is at fault in some way, because he wasn't in the meeting to hear what Pelosi said?
Olmert knows what he told her (including that her visit to Assad was a mistake, I might add), and then Pelosi is cited by multiple media outlets in direct quotes saying something else, and it is Olmert's fault? I hardly think so.
And David, you closing cumment just cut through my heart:
I'm skeptical of unnamed sources and you should be too. Right or left. Just as I'm skeptical of comments from people who don't have the courage to attach their real names to their opinions. You'll notice I use mine.
Was that a personal attack David? Okay, I confess.
You got me. I can hardly go out in public.
I'm terrified someone might find out my real name. I can't let people know who I am. Wouldn't want that to happen. I'm far too scared to put my own name on my opinions.
It's far better than I remain anonymous.
Yeah, David, your responses are brilliant enough.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at April 05, 2007 02:10 PM (9y6qg)
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I have to admit, you have the art of sarcasm down. I've tried to hold mine in check, but I recognize a master when I see it.
However, your reading skills are not what they could be. "Officials in the Prime Minister's office..." Do these officials have a name? I imagine they do, but yet they are unnamed, making them unnamed sources. CY, this is fairly simple concept. If a quote is attributed then the source is given a name. If the quote is not attributed, then there are no names given. That makes them unnamed sources. Like a high White House official. We know they work in the administration, just as we know your sources work in the PM's office. However, they are not named. Go back and read your post again. Nary a name to be named. Not one. And, not to beat a dead horse, but none of the people, including Omert, was at the meeting between Assad and Pelosi.
Whew. Seems simple enough to me.
As for you being unnamed, I actually wasn't referring to you but to your commenters. You, however, seem to think that it was a personal attack. Believe me, CY, if I had meant you I would have said you.
Perhaps you're a bit sensitive to criticism.
Posted by: David Terrenoire at April 05, 2007 02:23 PM (kxecL)
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Confederate Yankee,
note: Bob has been gracious enough to allow me to repost this earlier comment, one he cut because I used profanity. I sincerely apologize if I violated this blog's standards of decorum as that was never my intent. Here, edited, is my earlier comment:
You've made me curious enough to look a few things up, just to keep things honest.
Several news stories report the PM's statement as a clarification of their intent with Syria, not a refutation of what Pelosi said was stated in the meeting. Here's a quote from one report:
"Members of the delegation said that among the issues they took up in Damascus was the case of the three Israeli soldiers being held by the Lebanese militant group Hezbollah — which is supported by Iran — and the Palestinian group Hamas.
In addition to Mr. Lantos, the delegation includes Representatives Henry A. Waxman of California, Louise M. Slaughter of New York, Nick J. Rahall II of West Virginia and Keith Ellison of Minnesota, all Democrats, as well as David L. Hobson, Republican of Ohio."
So, people who were actually in the room with Assad and Pelosi say that Israel's concerns were raised. Again, people named who were at the meeting vs. unnamed sources who were not at the meeting. Which is more credible?
I also looked up the Logan Act and you're right, the administration won't prosecute, even though by my reading of the law they probably could. But the Bush people aren't alone. No one has been prosecuted in the history of the Logan Act. There seemed to be one indictment, in 1803, but no prosecution.
Again, I'm not making a case for Pelosi, but for critical thinking. I'd like to know what you think Pelosi did exactly that convinces you she tried to usurp the exec's foreign policy perogatives, because the quote you chose doesn't rise to a standard of evidence to me. But I'm not a lawyer and I could be wrong.
As for Congress attempting to take over the CINC's war powers, the resolution they attached to the funding bill was non-binding. And my guess is they know their constitutional limitations better than you or I.
Do I think it was a good idea? No. I think it was political posturing, but I don't think it was unconstitutional.
Now, unwarranted wiretaps, the elimination of habeas corpus and Bush's refusal to testify without Dick Cheney at his elbow are.
OK, maybe that last one isn't unconstitutional, but it certainly is chicken[salad].
Posted by: David Terrenoire at April 05, 2007 02:34 PM (kxecL)
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CY,
Originally you said, the President, and only the President, has the authority to command the armed forces and appoint ambassadors to conduct U.S. foreign policy.
As I pointed out, this doesn't cover meeting with foreign powers. I was not at all dishonest in my quotation or interpretation of it.
Both the House and Senate bills to withdraw troops by a certain deadline infringe mightily upon the Commander-in-Cheif's powers,
I'm genuinely confused. When did this come up?
Congress has the constitutional authority to stop funding the war, of course; but it does not have the authority to tell the President when to withdraw them.
That's not an important distinction.
The constitution doesn't define 'foreign policy', and in fact it comprises lots of gray area. That's why I replaced it with 'meet with foreign governments'.
Find me the passage of the constitution that restricts foreign policy to the president. The authority to appoint ambassadors and commanding the military are related, but much more limited.
I'm not knowledgeable about the Logan Law, but as Pelosi is a representative for the US, so the "without the authority of the United States" clause would seemingly exonerate her. Logan seems to be aimed at meddling private citizens.
Posted by: Lex Steele at April 05, 2007 06:32 PM (xRKGN)
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Bush met with the terrorist al Hakim in the WHITEHOUSE - and the wingnuts said absolutely nothing.
Pelosi meets with the head of state of Syria - as do many Republican congressional reps, and the wingnut get even more nutty.
Weird.
Posted by: mkultra at April 05, 2007 06:39 PM (ASUDI)
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Worse yet, Bush sends American troops to die in order to prop up a government that is infested with Shia militias, and minions of Sadr. We train Shia police officers who, in turn, kill innocent Iraqi simply based on their ethnicity and religious identity.
The hypocrisy is mind blowing.
Posted by: mkultra at April 05, 2007 06:45 PM (ASUDI)
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mkultra: or how about this: Bush wants to bomb Iran, so he accuses the Iranians of arming Iraqi insurgents. Except, the Iraqis who are killing our soldiers are largely Sunni, and Iran is Shia. Whoops.
Or, how about baseball fan Bush saying he's too busy to throw out the first pitch on opening day for the second year in a row. I wonder if he's scared of getting booed? I'm guessing he's going to be busy next year too.
Posted by: Lex Steele at April 06, 2007 12:35 AM (xRKGN)
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SecDef Gates Confronts Reid Surrender Plan
Democrat Harry Reid has already stated his opinion that the Iraqi War is "is not worth another drop of American blood," making me wonder just how much Iraqi blood may spill from Iraqi if his plan for defeat is implemented.
According to Secretary of Defense Robert Gates,
quite a lot:
U.S. Defense Secretary Robert Gates on Wednesday warned that limiting troops' activities in Iraq and withdrawing from Baghdad could lead to "ethnic cleansing" in the capital and elsewhere in the country.
Gates' comment followed a proposal from Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid to end most spending on the Iraq war in 2008, limiting it to targeted operations against al Qaeda, training for Iraqi troops and U.S. force protection.
"One real possibility is if we abandon some of these areas and withdraw into the countryside or whatever to do these targeted missions that you could have a fairly significant ethnic cleansing inside Baghdad and in Iraq more broadly," Gates said.
"What we do know is if Baghdad is in flames and the whole city is engulfed in violence, the prospects for a political solution are almost nonexistent," he said on the Laura Ingraham syndicated radio program.
Gates is saying that the Democrat plan will most likely lead to genocide, a conclusion
others have reached as well.
The preferred Democrat solution of a mindless retreat all but
promises an escalation according to
New York Times Baghdad bureau chief John Burns, that could result in "levels of suffering and of casualties amongst Iraqis that potentially could dwarf the ones we've seen to this point."
For all their rhetoric, those who claim to be anti-war certainly seem driven to create violence and bloodshed virtually without limits.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
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Gates is saying that the Democrat plan will most likely lead to genocide
...as did the democratic congresses plan for the final exit of Vietnam by cutting off funding.
The left is never satisfied until body counts reach 7 figures.
Posted by: Purple Avenger at April 04, 2007 04:42 PM (22lCG)
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Why do you keep saying stuff like that, Purple Avenger? You've sung the same song before in other threads, and it's as empty of meaning now as it was all those other times.
What is your proof? Where have you seen anything at all where a bunch of Lefties say something on the order of, "I won't be happy until the body count reaches seven figures"? Post the link, if you have it. Be sure it's not just some lone asshat commenting on a blog--it has to be something that reveals that this is the true feeling of the Left as a group, because I'm a Lefty, and I didn't get the memo you're referring to.
Posted by: Doc Washboard at April 04, 2007 06:29 PM (a2v8j)
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Second of all: why should anyone believe a single word the government says about the Iraq war? There has been too much bushwah in the past for me to be able to take anything they say seriously: Saddam/September 11; WMDs; we'll be greeted as liberators; the insurgency is in its last throes; nothing was going on at Abu Ghraib; the insurgency is still in its last throes; nothing wrong happened at Haditha; we didn't know anything about Building 18.
Et cetera.
The law of averages suggests that something that the Administration says about the war must be true, but I can't separate the truth from the spin, and I don't think many other people can, either.
Why take this latest pronouncement at face value? Because you want it to be true?
Posted by: Doc Washboard at April 04, 2007 06:42 PM (a2v8j)
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Finally: if not next year, when do we pull out? I have never, ever, ever had anyone on the Right (and, baby, I've tried to get you guys to come clean on it) explain precisely what conditions need to be met to end our involvement in Iraq. "When Iraqi security forces can stand up, we can stand down" is not an answer.
How'd we know that World War II was over? When the bad guys surrendered. That's clearly not an option here, so what will we be looking for?
This looks like one of those times that the Democrats have a plan and the Republicans have nothing, unless you call "keep sending troops over to get killed forever and ever" a plan.
So how about it, PA? Lay out the Big Purple Avenger Plan To End Involvement In Iraq. What criteria need to be met for the U.S. to leave?
Bonus points if you can do it without namecalling or other ad hominem attacks.
Posted by: Doc Washboard at April 04, 2007 06:51 PM (a2v8j)
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Doc, you've heard it numerous times. We still have bases in Japan and Germany, granted they aren't violent like Iraq but they were created to keep the regions stable following WWII. Same with our presence in Korea. Our presence in Iraq is needed to help to stabilize, then maintain stability until such a time we are no longer required.
"Second of all: why should anyone believe a single word the government says about the Iraq war? There has been too much bushwah in the past for me to be able to take anything they say seriously: Saddam/September 11; WMDs; we'll be greeted as liberators; the insurgency is in its last throes; nothing was going on at Abu Ghraib; the insurgency is still in its last throes; nothing wrong happened at Haditha; we didn't know anything about Building 18."
Saddam was evil...
Sep 11th did happen and it was from terrorists...
We were greeted as liberators, most regular Iraqi want us to remain there until they are stable (I talk to those that are there/just return as I deal with them all the time. The ones actually going out into Iraq, not hiding in the green zone writing stories they never witnessed)....
Insurgency in it's last throes... I don't believe this one either but do believe we are making progress...
Here's info on bldg 18
http://www.snopes.com/politics/soapbox/kallerson.asp
Posted by: Retired Navy at April 05, 2007 05:59 AM (0EcTE)
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Navy, Saddam was not behind September 11. No matter how many times you and Cheney juxtapose the two concepts, it will not make it true.
Mentioning German and Korean bases is an attempt by you to avoid the issue, unless you're suggesting that we have bases in Germany to keep genocide from taking place.
When WWII was over, it was over. Sure, we have bases in Germany--it's geopolitically expedient. We're not facing insurgents there. VE and VJ days meant that soldiers started coming home.
How do we know that it's time for soldiers to come home from Iraq? What measurable criteria tell us that the war is over?
Posted by: Doc Washboard at April 05, 2007 08:39 AM (YbI6D)
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I avoided no issue, The Troops are where they are needed, the job is not done, they should remain there until the job at hand is done (stabilizing Iraq).
We didn't know how long WWII would last and were prepared to keep the troops doing their job until it was done.
Posted by: Retired Navy at April 05, 2007 09:31 AM (nFSnk)
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Sure you have. You've avoided the only issue that counts in the "surrender/stay the course" debate: precisely what does "stabilizing Iraq" look like? Put salt on its tail. Define your terms. You don't do it because you can't do it. The pro-war faction can only speak in generalities: "stabilizing Iraq"; "stay the course"; "when they stand up we stand down." You can't answer in terms of target death rates or control of insurgents crossing borders or anything else because you know that we can't even control our own violent crime/death rates; we can't even control our own borders.
You are saying that we are going to stay in Iraq forever, and, therefore, that you are willing to accept an infinite number of American deaths in the process.
I wish to high heaven that someone on the Right would address this issue in realistic terms, rather than platitudes.
Posted by: Doc Washboard at April 05, 2007 11:04 AM (YbI6D)
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Just because you don't like the answer doesn't mean it wasn't answered. How about specifics like this.
No more car bombs...
No more Suicide bombers...
No more Murder squads...
No more individuals hiring their own armies to cause problems...
Police/Military trained/large enough to handle it on their own should isolated occurances happen once we scale down...
That would stabilize Iraq enough to reduce our forces to a couple of bases.
Posted by: Retired Navy at April 05, 2007 12:14 PM (8Ms63)
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Congratulations, Navy: you're the first person ever to actually answer the question!
The next question, then, is whether what you propose is actually feasible. Do you think that there will ever, ever ever be a time when there are no suicide bombers or car bombs in the middle east? They crop up even in countries that aren't at war. It seems to me that if those are your criteria for success, then you may be setting us up for never achieving our goals.
Posted by: Doc Washboard at April 05, 2007 02:54 PM (YbI6D)
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Terroristic fundamentalism is a state of mind. It can be overcome but it takes a lot of work. To give up and stick your head in the sand thinking it can't/won't get worse or happen here is being obtuse. It has happened here, it will happen again, and it is up to us (meaning all freedom loving people in the world) to root it out and put an end to it. Appeasment never works, you just get more demands and your freedoms get whittled away.
My question to you is don't you see the problem of terrorism, if you do, what do YOU think we should do about it?
Posted by: Retired Navy at April 06, 2007 05:23 AM (a/5fw)
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And yes, I see it as an attainable goal. It will constitute hard work, determination, and better decisions from our leadership. It will also take getting the people where terrorism is bred to get behind us in support (that is probably the biggest hurdle but has the best chance for gain).
Posted by: Retired Navy at April 06, 2007 05:26 AM (a/5fw)
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Navy:
What should we do about terrorism? I'm glad you asked.
If the "we're fighting them over there so we don't have to fight them over here" line of thinking were correct, then we'd be able to zip through lines at the airport and illegal domestic surveillance would not be needed. Alas, they can fight us both over there and over here at the same time; just ask the folks who died in London and Madrid.
If I were The Decider, I'd stop fighting over there and begin fighting over here. Think how many container ships could be searched by redeployed troops. They're not getting searched now--it has been all over the news. Think about how much speedier the lines at airports would be if we had redeployed troops assisting with the security checks. Think how much safer we'd be if we had redeployed troops guarding our infrastructure, like refineries and reservoirs. No, it's not glamorous, but it's our homeland, and aren't we trying to keep it secure?
Then, still in the role of The Decider, I'd decide to only use our troops in situations where OUR NATIONAL SECURITY was at stake, either immediately, or in the foreseeable future. Iraq was not such a case. Note that the Right is now reduced to saying, "If we leave Iraq, there will be a genocide. THINK OF THE CHILDREN!!!!!
That is not a matter of our national security. Yes, at one point Saddam moved aggressively beyond the borders of Iraq, and a coalition stepped in and smacked him on the nose. After that time, there were no extraterritorial incursions, no WMDs, no nothing that made Iraq a matter of our national security. We should have stayed out.
If I were The Decider, that's what I'd do.
Posted by: Doc Washboard at April 06, 2007 09:14 AM (c3WzW)
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While I understand what you are saying, I don't agree with any of it, except remotely.
We have to be on the lookout for terrorism here as well as there and anywhere else it rears it's ugly head.
Having the military do domestic safeguarding runs afoul of the posse comitatus act and the Insurrection Act unless it's handled very delicately.
OUR National Security is now tied to the WORLDS Security. (You can nit-pick that all you want but the world is blending more and more as one, for good or bad).
You say the right says to think of the children, isn't that what the left goes on about Darfur?
Posted by: Retired Navy at April 06, 2007 11:29 AM (8kQAc)
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War Song
While the rest of the world seems focused on Iranian promises to free 15 British sailors kidnapped 1.5 miles inside Iraqi waters, former pro-Taliban tribesmen are pushing forward with what they say is a final offensive to crush foreign al Qaeda fighters in Pakistan's South Waziristan tribal region.
The fighting against entrenched Uzbek, Chechen and Arab positions
is intense:
Tribesmen stormed a bunker manned by foreign militants early on Wednesday and killed 11 Uzbeks and captured another 14, residents said, citing the tribal forces.
"Soon after morning prayers there was a heavy sound of war drums and tribesmen were seen leaving in different directions amid shouts of 'Allahu Akhbar' (God is Greatest) and 'Victory, victory, victory'," Malik Sangeen Khan, a resident of the region's main town of Wana, said.
"Since this morning there have been massive sounds of rockets and gunfire. It is louder even than the Pakistani military operations here in 2004."
It seems rather pathetic that the Musharraf government is claiming these battles vindicate his 2006 peace accord, a deal which effectively ceded Waziristan to Taliban and al Qaeda forces after Pakistan's Army suffered heavy losses in the area in 2004-2006.
I don't think anyone could have easily predicted this red-on-red conflict between former allies, but as long as Taliban and al Qaeda loyalists continue to kill each other instead of staging incursions into Afghanistan, very few people outside of Waziristan are likely to complain.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
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You may not like it but there is some logic to what Mushariff did. The tribesmen, while they are obliged by tradition to give to refuge, hate foreigners. By leaving them to their own governance the only foreigners are the terrorists and their allies.
The fighting has started and in some areas the terrorists are winning. In other areas they are not. What you may well get is some tribes asking the Pakistanis back in to help them.
I view the open revolt of some in Pakistan, and calls by terrorists to overthrow the Pakistani government, as an opportunity not a setback. It could well mean that the leadership located in the tribal areas do not think they are secure.
Sure, this is frought with perils, but what does Musharif have to lose. He is a dead man to many already.
Posted by: davod at April 05, 2007 09:37 AM (951r6)
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More Democrat Maturity
As if the lynching threats issued against Karl Rove this morning weren't enough proof of liberal immaturity, Democrats running the House Armed Services Committee have determined how they can easily end the Global War on Terror... by simply excising the phrase:
The House Armed Services Committee is banishing the global war on terror from the 2008 defense budget.
This is not because the war has been won, lost or even called off, but because the committee’s Democratic leadership doesn’t like the phrase.
A memo for the committee staff, circulated March 27, says the 2008 bill and its accompanying explanatory report that will set defense policy should be specific about military operations and “avoid using colloquialisms.”
The political reasoning behind this Democrat initiative is clear: by limiting the description to reference specific operations, Democrats can attempt to ignore the essential nature of the wider war against terrorism sponsored by both Sunni and Shia Islamists.
This is simply another example of Democrats attempting to "wish away" the reality that this conflict is not confined to specific fronts or to a specific enemy, but rather, an entrenched set of ideologies that will take far longer to dismantle.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
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Typical Democratic inversion. The War on Terror becomes Terrified of War.
Posted by: Tom Powell at April 04, 2007 11:28 AM (D6VsC)
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And as usual, the faithful will go along with or be fooled by the newspeak. Sad.
Posted by: DoorHold at April 04, 2007 11:33 AM (h0/wa)
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So now it's The Happy Rainbow Picnic Huggy-Wugs Against US Imperialism.
Posted by: Bleepless at April 05, 2007 01:46 PM (wmdhe)
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I'd love to see the faces of the committee members if the people submitting the report merely did a search-and-replace of "War on Terror" with "War on Islamic Terrorists."
That would certainly be be avoiding a "colloquialism" by being more specific, wouldn't it? I doubt it would serve their purposes, though.
Posted by: wheels at April 05, 2007 02:39 PM (WUs5a)
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A Thousand Words of Subservience
As noted by blogger Paul Geary at
The New Editor last night (h/t
Instapundit), Nancy Pelosi is raising hackles for deciding to cover her head while visiting (
against the President's advice) the capital city of Damascus, Syria, to meet with Syrian dictator Bashar Assad.
Up to 90% of the foreign suicide bombers in Iraq filter through Syria. Assad himself
threatened former Lebanese Prime Minister Rafiq Hariri just months before Hariri was assassinated, and Syria's government—perhaps Assad himself—is suspected of having a hand in the murder.
Bush was correct in noting that Pelosi's trip only encourages a well-known state sponsor of terror. Republicans Joe Pitts (PA), Frank Wolf (VA) and Robert Aderholt (AL) also held meetings this past week with Assad that should be condemned, as have Senators John Kerry (D-MA), Bill Nelson (D-FL) Chris Dodd (D-CT), and Arlen Specter (R-PA) over the past few months.
All of these Congressmen and Senators should be rebuked for their actions, which lend credibility to a murderous regime, and I do mean
all of them, Democrat and Republican. They do not represent, nor can they negotiate, the foreign policy of the United States.
But Pelosi, just a
pretzel and a
Big Mac away from the Presidency, and the highest ranking member of Congress as Speaker of the House, deserves special scrutiny for her actions.
While all of these trips were inadvisable, Pelosi's position lends credibility to a state that sponsors several major terrorist groups, terrorists that have killed hundreds of American servicemen, and who have killed hundreds of our allies. Pelosi's defiant trip is a thumb to the eye of U.S. foreign policy, one that sets a horrible precedent.
I am unaware of any Speaker of the House in this nation's history that has visited an antagonistic power while our military was engaged in combat. It is the equivalent of Speaker Sam Rayburn visiting China in the late summer of 1950 during the Korean War.
Make no mistake: Pelosi's trip undercuts our servicemen that are currently fighting against terrorists in Iraq that come through Syria with a wink and a nod. This trip is a propaganda coup that will be used by Syria, the terrorists they sponsor, and Islamists worldwide.
Notes Geary:
This picture disgusts me. What message is Nancy Pelosi trying to send? Are women equal to men, or not? Why is modesty foisted only upon women? That's the inconvenient truth for conservative Muslims, and for liberal Americans trying desperately (and unsuccessfully) to reconcile the desire for understanding between cultures, and those cultures' starkly illiberal practices.
While her term as Speaker is only months old, the image above may very well become the defining visual image associated with Pelosi’s Speakership: the most powerful woman in American politics donning a scarf in deference to Islamic practice, knowing full well the symbolism that act carried.
Pelosi donned the head covering while visiting the Ommayad Mosque in Damascus, a move that will be correctly interpreted by Muslims around the world as a nod to the subservience of women as noted in the Koran, in
Surah an-Nur ayah 31:
'Wa qul li al-mu'minat yaghdudna min absarihinna wa yahfathna furujahunna wa laa yubdina zenatahunna illa maa thahara min haa wal-yadribna bi khumurihinna ala juyubihinna; wa laa yubdina zenatahunna illa li bu'ulatihinna aw aba'ihinna aw aba'i bu'ulatihinna aw abna'ihinna aw abna'i bu'ulatihinna aw ikhwanihinna aw bani ikhwanihinna aw bani akhawatihinna aw nisa'ihinna aw maa malakat aymanuhunna aw at-tabi'ina ghayri ulu'l-irbat min ar-rijal aw at-tifl allathina lam yathharu ala awrat an-nisa wa laa yadribna bi arjulihinna li yu'lama maa yukhfina min zenatahinna. Wa tubu ilaAllahi jami'an, ayyuha al-mu'minun la'allakum tuflihun'
And say to the faithful women to lower their gazes, and to guard their private parts, and not to display their beauty except what is apparent of it, and to extend their headcoverings (khimars) to cover their bosoms (jaybs), and not to display their beauty except to their husbands, or their fathers, or their husband's fathers, or their sons, or their husband's sons, or their brothers, or their brothers' sons, or their sisters' sons, or their womenfolk, or what their right hands rule (slaves), or the followers from the men who do not feel sexual desire, or the small children to whom the nakedness of women is not apparent, and not to strike their feet (on the ground) so as to make known what they hide of their adornments. And turn in repentance to Allah together, O you the faithful, in order that you are successful.
Her scarf will be interpreted as a hijab or khimar, which indeed its purpose in her visit to Ommayad. The symbolism of the photo was easy to predict in advance, and easily avoidable by simply changing her itinerary. Instead, Nancy Peolosi disgraced herself, her position, the Congress and the United States, and certainly not least of all, women who seek equality around the world.
Get used to seeing this image. It will dog Pelosi until the end of her days in office.
Update: Even more pathetic than I thought. Pelosi couldn't even deliver a simple message correctly.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
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"Republicans Joe Pitts (PA), Frank Wolf (VA) and Robert Aderholt (AL) also held meetings this past week with Assad that should be condemned"
They 'should be condemned', but you condemn only Pelosi.
"Pelosi, just a pretzel and a Big Mac away from the Presidency, and the highest ranking member of Congress as Speaker of the House, deserves special scrutiny for her actions."
This is a rationalization to attack someone you personally dislike.
"While all of these trips were inadvisable, Pelosi's position lends credibility to a state that sponsors several major terrorist groups, terrorists that have killed hundreds of American servicemen, and who have killed hundreds of our allies."
The Repub senators who visited Assad last week did not lend credibility to terrorists?
"Pelosi's defiant trip is a thumb to the eye of U.S. foreign policy, one that sets a horrible precedent."
The Repub senators is not a thumb in the eye?
"Make no mistake: Pelosi's trip undercuts our servicemen that are currently fighting against terrorists in Iraq that come through Syria with a wink and a nod. This trip is a propaganda coup that will be used by Syria, the terrorists they sponsor, and Islamists worldwide."
The Repub senators who visited do not undercut our servicemen? Their visits are not propaganda coups?
This is a despicable double=standard, CY. The Repub senators 'should be condemned', yet you don't do it, but you happily point out that Pelosi is nearly a traitor for making the same visit that they did.
Posted by: Lex Steele at April 04, 2007 10:35 AM (xRKGN)
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Lex, are you feeling well?
I only ask because that is, by far, the most pathetic strawman argument I've ever seen laid out by you.
I think any child would clearly understand my inference that when I stated they should be condemned, I am condemning them. I'm also saying that other people should condemn them as well. I lay that blame among Senators and Congressmen of both parties equally; what part of "and I do mean all of them, Democrat and Republican" are you having trouble grasping?
I clearly made the case as to why Pelosi's visit--one that you chose to characterize as the actions of someone who is "nearly a traitor"--is especially offensive not because of who she is, but because of what she is;, the Speaker of the House of Representatives, and third in the line of succession to the Presidency.
It is because of her position and the influence that the position of Speaker wields and represents that her actions justify more scrutinty and scorn thank rank and file congressmen, and it is because of her position that her visit is receiving far more media attention worldwide than even the visit of former Presidential hopeful John Kerry.
Congressmen and senators of both parties were all cited as deserving condemnation for visiting Syria. I focused on the Speaker of the House because of her place in our system of government, and the extra scrutiny and influence that position of power holds. There is no double standard here, at all.
There is only a person who is apparently unfit for the office she occupies.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at April 04, 2007 11:11 AM (9y6qg)
3
Isn't the intent to symbolize the Democratic's surrender to Islamic rule?
I get that she believes she's only showing respect, but someone in her position SHOULD also understand the far reaching symbolism of her capitulation.
That she either doesn't understand, doesn't care or decides to display in defiance of all common sense says ... well, it says what we've been saying about her and her ilk all along.
Posted by: DoorHold at April 04, 2007 11:44 AM (h0/wa)
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"I think any child would clearly understand my inference that when I stated they should be condemned, I am condemning them."
Balderdash. 'They should be condemned' is a passive, advisory sentence. You could have just as easily said 'I condemn them', but that would have been a distraction. Your choice of words belies your agenda. You mentioned the Repub senators to protect against charges of bias.
"It is because of her position that her visit is receiving far more media attention worldwide..."
The media attention is due to a stink raised by people who loathe dovish San Francisco liberals. If Hastert had visited Syria there would be nary a peep from the media. There's no particular significance to her secondary position to succeed Bush.
Here are a couple of questions for you.
1) Pelosi delivered a letter from Olmert to Assad. Is Olmert lending credibility to terrorists as well?
2) Did you rebuke Rice for meeting with the Iranians? Did she lend credibility to the terrorists?
In case you wonder, I read your blog for an alternative point of view. This post was disappointing. It is cheerleading, not analysis.
Posted by: Lex Steele at April 04, 2007 12:03 PM (xRKGN)
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Isn't the intent to symbolize the Democratic's surrender to Islamic rule?
No, that was Laura Bush's intent when she wore a headscarf in mosque (and in front of the Pope, since many Catholics abide the same principle of modesty).
Posted by: jpe at April 04, 2007 12:07 PM (+rmhC)
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What happened to my last comment, CY? I had thought you were above deleting comments solely because you disagree with them.
Posted by: Lex Steele at April 04, 2007 01:12 PM (xRKGN)
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CY didn't delete anything, and I apologize for accusing him of it.
It seems as though my reading skills have declined with age.
Posted by: Lex Steele at April 04, 2007 01:13 PM (xRKGN)
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So Lex, you are suddenly claiming the ability to see into my thoughts, and decide what I meant to say even better than I... I hope you enjoy the delusions while they last. But since you are a little slow and unclear (and even admit a decline in your reading skills), I'll make it as plain as I can for you: I condemn them all. Again.
To answer your other irrelevant strawmen one by one:
If Hastert has visited Syria, he would not have done so against the wishes of the Executive branch, which is the only part of our government entitled to make foreign policy. However, this is a moot point, as neither Hastert nor any other Speaker of the House in U.S. history has had the unmitigated gall to visit a belligerent state in an attempt to forge their own diplomacy, which of course, she has no constitutional power to do, anyway.
Olmert is not a member of the U.S. government, and as the head of a neighboring state, has both the duty and obligation to pursue foreign relations, especially as Syria seems convinced that a war is about to break out.
It is Secretary of State Rice's job to carry out U.S. foreign policy and meet with foreign governments (side note: this might be your dumbest strawman yet).
Likewise, JPE, unless you are aware of facts to the contrary, Laura Bush is not a recognized government official, nor did she visit a country that actively supports some of the largest terrorist organizations in the world, specifically against the wishes of POTUS, thereby providing them with a propaganda victory. I'm also fairly certain we've never been at the war with the Vatican, either, so that comment you cribbed from the braintrust at Mahablog is irrelevant, as well.
SecState Rice, which you somehow forgot to mention, has also worn a hijab in meeting with Muslim allies in mosques, but has not made the unconscionable calculation of making herself propaganda fodder on behalf of belligerent nations as did Pelosi, a move even Lex states is close to treasonous.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at April 04, 2007 01:44 PM (9y6qg)
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CY:
When Rice meets with Iran, it's ok. When Pelosi meets with Syria it legitimizes the terrorists.
When Rice or Laura Bush wears a hijab, it's ok. When Pelosi wears a hijab, she's making herself propaganda fodder for belligerent nations and demonstrating the women are second class citizens.
If Hastert had visited Syria it would have been ok, because he's on Bush's team. When Pelosi does so it demonstrates unmitigated gall. It's ostensibly condemnable, though in practice barely noteworthy, when rank and file Republican congressmen visit Syria.
I don't believe that Pelosi's visit 'was close to treasonous'. I used the word 'traitorous', but I did so only to characterize your argument.
I don't recall the Constitution stating that the Executive is the only branch entitled to make foreign policy. Congress regularly passes laws that determine foreign policy.
Posted by: Lex Steele at April 04, 2007 03:22 PM (xRKGN)
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Likewise, JPE, unless you are aware of facts to the contrary, Laura Bush is not a recognized government official
Ah, so wearing a scarf is only a wrong if you're a government official. Sorry, it's tough to keep your arbitrary, ad hoc rules straight.
OK, so what if Bush had put slippers on in a mosque? Sign of the apocalypse? If I found the picture, would it constitute deference that symbolizes something or other?
Or will you invent some new rule about how it's only wrong on Tuesdays for people from California?
Posted by: jpe at April 04, 2007 06:53 PM (/0hb2)
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And please note that Condi Rice similarly donned the hijab in mosques while acting in her official capacity.
But, it wasn't a Tuesday in April and she's not from California, so I suppose it was hunky-dory.
Posted by: jpe at April 04, 2007 06:55 PM (/0hb2)
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Sorry, I missed your mention of Rice. So....let's put all this together. It's wrong to wear a hijab if one is....what? Being diplomatic? We all know that your real position is that it's wrong while not supporting the Great Leader, but I'd prefer to see you eke some sort of universalizable principle that we can apply when there's a Democrat in office.
Posted by: jpe at April 04, 2007 06:58 PM (/0hb2)
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(Sorry to post in a row like this)
As I reread, there's absolutely nothing in your original post that provides you the means to distinguish between Rice and Pelosi. You simply state that the mere act of wearing hijab is capitulation to the misogyny of Islam - there's simply no way to distinguish the cases without admitting error. In fact, you don't even try to distinguish them; rather, you give reasons for why Pelosi's immoral conduct is worse than Rice's bad conduct.
Posted by: jpe at April 04, 2007 07:06 PM (/0hb2)
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jpe - There are two essential differences between Rice and Pelosi.
First, Rice has not set herself up as a champion of womens' rights. She did not make speeches about how thrilled she was to be the first black female Secretary of State and how her experience as a woman made her valuable in her office.
Second, Rice wasn't there visiting as a friend of Iran. Her visit was in opposition to Iran's murderous and repugnant regime.
Pelosi, on the other hand, can't shut up about how she is a shining example of a powerful woman. She's in Syria as a friend of Assad/. Her actions are rightly seen as being in agreement with him, insofar as she is there specifically because she agrees with him.
Aside those points, you seem to be saying that it's okay for Pelosi to capitulate to Islam because Rice, you believe, did it, too. To that I can only say, sheesh.
Posted by: Jimmie at April 04, 2007 11:40 PM (/KwQ+)
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Those nitpicking with CY's wording and chiding him for inconsistency are sounding foolish, in my opinion.
Pelosi's confusing overtures run counter to the intentions and messages of both Israel (they've clarified THEIR intentions and reinforced their conditions much differently than those attributed to them by Madame Speaker) and the US --- where the executive branch conducts foreign policy, for better or worse.
Pelosi obviously disagrees with US foreign policies. She should debate those differences in the proper chambers and channels and with the appropriate people. NO ONE, much less the ranking person in a branch of the US legislature should add confusion to an already complex and sensitive subject area.
I'm sorry, but Nancy Pelosi is just out of her league and outside the lines. She upsets the efforts of others to do THEIR jobs and adds to tensions. No amount of partisan bloviating and spinning can change that.
And yes, others (Republicans included) reaching out to Syria with their own agendas are out of line, too. But Pelosi's grandstanding takes the cake because of her standing. One might even take what she says seriously.
Posted by: Terry Ott at April 04, 2007 11:44 PM (F6I7v)
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Those nitpicking with CY's wording and chiding him for inconsistency are sounding foolish, in my opinion.
Pelosi's confusing overtures run counter to the intentions and messages of both Israel (they've clarified THEIR intentions and reinforced their conditions much differently than those attributed to them by Madame Speaker) and the US --- where the executive branch conducts foreign policy, for better or worse.
Pelosi obviously disagrees with US foreign policies. She should debate those differences in the proper chambers and channels and with the appropriate people. NO ONE, much less the ranking person in a branch of the US legislature should add confusion to an already complex and sensitive subject area.
I'm sorry, but Nancy Pelosi is just out of her league and outside the lines. She upsets the efforts of others to do THEIR jobs and adds to tensions. No amount of partisan bloviating and spinning can change that.
Diplomacy requires insight and sensitivity and some skills she lacks. That's just the way it is.
And yes, others (Republicans included) reaching out to Syria with their own agendas are out of line, too. But Pelosi's grandstanding takes the cake because of her standing. One might even take what she says seriously.
Posted by: Terry Ott at April 04, 2007 11:45 PM (F6I7v)
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More IOKIYAR, CY:
In 1997 ... a congressional delegation led by Rep. Dennis Hastert (R-IL) which met with Colombian military officials, promising to "remove conditions on assistance" and complaining about "leftist-dominated" U.S. congresses of years past that "used human rights as an excuse to aid the left in other countries." Hastert said he would to correct this situation and expedite aid to countries allied in the war on drugs and also encouraged Colombian military officials to "bypass the U.S. executive branch and communicate directly with Congress."
Hastert encourages the Colombian military to bypass the exec branch? Where were you when this was happening?
Posted by: anon at April 05, 2007 12:53 AM (EWvGY)
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Childish
Protesting political figures is acceptable behavior.
Pelting them is
not:
White House Advisor Karl Rove was the target of a protest on the American University campus Tuesday night, NBC 4 reported.
Rove was on the campus to talk to the College Republicans, but when he got outside more than a dozen students began throwing things at him and at his car, an American University spokesperson said.
I'm rather disappointed by the antics of these children, who followed up this part of their tantrum by lying down in front of Rove's car until security bodily removed them. No one was arrested in the incident. It is uncertain if any might have been given a "time-out" by campus police.
Update: I'm closing the comments on this thread, as liberals coming in from
Salon's Blog Report have made several comments wishing far worse treatment to the body of Karl Rove (roasting on a spit in one example; prayers that he would be lynched in two others. And yes, I have screen caps and IP addresses).
I've got better things to do with my morning than watch liberals issue empty frothing threats that justify the contempt so many people have for them.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
12:18 AM
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They are probably in school under Govt. Grants.
Posted by: Retired Navy at April 04, 2007 08:01 AM (a/5fw)
2
Rove is double plus ungood.
Posted by: BohicaTwentyTwo at April 04, 2007 08:59 AM (oC8nQ)
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April 03, 2007
No Global War on Terror Here
An Iraqi Sunni insurgent group calling itself the "Arrows of Righteousness" holding two German hostages has given the German government 10 more days to withdrawn their soldiers from Afghanistan.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
02:36 PM
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"... Germany was safe before it joined the United States in this devilish coalition against so-called terrorism ..."
So-called terrorism. Like the kind where you are taken hostage, brain-washed into believing there has never been a terrorist incident in Germany, paraded on video for all the world to see, forced to plead for your life, presumably before you are horrifically murdered in front of the cameras?
Posted by: DoorHold at April 04, 2007 11:56 AM (h0/wa)
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