Confederate Yankee
April 25, 2007
Run for Your Lives! The High Caps Are Loose!
Embarrassingly close to home:
Memphis police were looking Monday night for the thieves who stole seven weapons from a North Carolina SWAT team van parked in South Memphis.
Members of the SWAT team based in Raleigh, N.C., were eating at Interstate Bar-B-Que, 2265 S. Third, about 3:30 p.m. Monday when they realized their van had been broken into, said Lt. Jerry Gwyn of Memphis felony response.
The weapons stolen from my local SWAT team
were:
3- Sig Sauer Model 551, .223 caliber, Fully Automatic Assault Rifles, in black
nylon cases (with several hundred rounds of ammunition)
2 - Remington Model 870, pump action 12 gauge shotguns
1 - Sig Sauer Model 229, .357 caliber semi-auto handgun
1 - Sig Sauer Model 226, .357 caliber semi-auto handgun
One of the SIG assault rifles--a real one, not the semi-automatic rifles the media has falsely labeled as assault rifles--
has been recovered after apparently being purchased along with some ammunition by one of the fine, upstanding citizens of Memphis.
The media has really dropped the ball on the most alarming aspect of this case, the flow of 30-round magazines onto American streets. The SIG 551, like most .223/5.56x45mm duty rifles,
uses 30-round magazines.
Where are the magazines? Why aren't they being reported on?
Clearly, the American public can't handle the thought of such magazines being released, and the media is participating in a willful cover-up to minimize the hysteria that would surely sweep the nation if it was found that such high capacity magazines were allowed to run free.
Sure, the police
say they are looking for the criminals holding two outstanding machine guns, a pair of shotguns, and a pair of pistols, but we know that the magazines are the
real threat.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
09:15 AM
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While I get the tone, I did want to comment on the crime itself. What a great idea! Steal weapons from the police. How many morons will read that story and cook up similar crimes?
Hope I'm long gone when private ownership of firearms is eventually banned, but at least I can RIP knowing exactly where criminals will obtain their firearms: From the only ones left armed; the police, military, politicians, judges, et al.
Posted by: DoorHold at April 26, 2007 11:27 AM (TPaww)
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April 24, 2007
White Flag Harry Reid: We're Losing This War, and the Troops are Liars
"Senator Lost" Harry Reid, has unilaterally declared that the Iraq War is lost. Uh, Senator... how would you know and other top Democrats know, when you continue to skip briefings?
What's curious is that congressional Democrats don't seem much interested in what's actually happening in Iraq. The commander in Iraq, Gen. David Petraeus, returns to Washington this week, but last week Pelosi's office said "scheduling conflicts" prevented him from briefing House members. Two days later, the members-only meeting was scheduled, but the episode brings to mind the fact that Pelosi and other top House Democrats skipped a Pentagon videoconference with Petraeus on March 8.
Reid even labeled General David Petraeus
a liar:
BASH: You talked several times about General Petraeus. You know that he is here in town. He was at the White House today, sitting with the president in the Oval Office and the president said that he wants to make it clear that Washington should not be telling him, General Petraeus, a commander on the ground in Iraq, what to do, particularly, the president was talking about Democrats in Congress.
He also said that General Petraeus is going to come to the Hill and make it clear to you that there is progress going on in Iraq, that the so-called surge is working. Will you believe him when he says that?
REID: No, I don't believe him, because it's not happening. All you have to do is look at the facts.
Look at the facts, Harry? You refuse to address the facts.
Here are a few comments for "Senator Lost" from men on the ground.
From a letter to
Op-for:
We are winning over here in Al Anbar province. I don't know about Baghdad, but Ramadi was considered THE hotspot in Al Anbar, the worse province, and it has been very quiet. The city is calm, the kids are playing in the streets, the local shops are open, the power is on at night, and daily commerce is the norm rather than the exception. There have been no complex attacks since March. That is HUGE progress. This quiet time is allowing the Iraqi Army and Iraqi Police to establish themselves in the eyes of the people. The Iraqi people also want IA's and IP's in their areas. The Sunni Sheiks are behind us and giving us full support. This means that almost all Sunnis in Al Anbar are now committed to supporting the US and Iraqi forces. It also means that almost all insurgents left out here are AQ. FYI, the surge is just beginning. Gen Petraeus' strategy is just getting started and we're seeing huge gains here.
However, you don't see Harry Reid talking about this. When I saw what he said, it really pissed me off. That guy does not know what is going on over here because he hasn't bothered to come and find out. The truth on the ground in Al Anbar is not politically convenient for him, so he completely ignored it.
I suppose Reid considers this soldier a liar as well.
What does he think about Sgt. Turkovich, from his
own state of Nevada?
"We're not losing this war."
That's how a Las Vegas Army Reserve sergeant and Iraq war veteran who is heading out again for Operation Iraqi Freedom reacted Friday to Nevada Sen. Harry Reid's assessment that the war in Iraq is "lost."
"I don't believe the war is lost," Sgt. George Turkovich, 24, said as he stood with other soldiers near a shipping container that had been packed for their deployment to Kuwait.
The soldiers leave today for a six-week training stint at Camp Atterbury, Ind., before heading overseas to run a camp in support of the war effort. It is uncertain if their yearlong tour will take them to Iraq.
"Unfortunately, politics has taken a huge role in this war affecting our rules of engagement," said Turkovich, a 2001 Palo Verde High School graduate. "This is a guerrilla war that we're fighting, and they're going to tie our hands.
"So it does make it a lot harder for us to fight the enemy, but we're not losing this war," he said.
Turkovich's commander, Lt. Col. Steven Cox:
"I find it exceedingly difficult to believe that the American people would leave their military dangling in the wind the way the good senator is doing," Cox said.
"Defeatism ... from our elected officials does not serve us well in the field," he said. "They embolden the enemy, and they actually leave them with the feeling that they can defeat us and win this.
"All they have to do is wait us out because the American resolve is waning," he said.
Cox said he's "not sure the senator accurately echoes the people he represents. ... I believe his tactics are more of shock in trying to sway public opinion. He may have spoken out of turn."
Obviously, these brave soldiers are liars, right Senator Reid?
But we're not done just yet.
Marine Corporal Tyler Rock, currently in Ramadi, was a
bit more direct in his criticism:
yeah and i got a qoute for that douche harry reid. these families need us here. obviously he has never been in iraq. or at least the area worth seeing. the parts where insurgency is rampant and the buildings are blown to pieces. we need to stay here and help rebuild. if iraq didnt want us here then why do we have IP's voluntering everyday to rebuild their cities. and working directly with us too. same with the IA's. it sucks that iraqi's have more patriotism for a country that has turned to complete shit more than the people in america who drink starbucks everyday. we could leave this place and say we are sorry to the terrorists. and then we could wait for 3,000 more american civilians to die before we say "hey thats not nice" again. and the sad thing is after we WIN this war. people like him will say he was there for us the whole time.
1st Lt, Matthew McGirr, another Ramadi Marine, agrees and offers a blistering response
of his own:
We are reaching a tipping point in this fight. We have finally learned this culture. We have finally begun to commit the necessary forces. We have truly learned to fight a counter-insurgency. Very real gains are being made despite claims from our Congress that we have already lost. A counter-insurgency battle is not one of quickly attained and easily recognizeable benchmarks. It is not won in a year or four. It takes time, resolve, and a willingness to use what we have learned from past mistakes and expectations. From firsthand experience I can tell you, this "Surge" is working. We need to continue to support these people and give them a fighting chance at creating a nation on their own terms.
To echo the sentiments of my fellow Marine in 1/6, the reality of what is happening on the ground in places like Ramadi is not being reported to the American public. The pundits and politicians on both sides do not fully grasp the conditions on the ground here. They are arrogantly and irresponsibly using this war and the troops who fight in it for political gain and election currency. They manipulate the truth or do not care enough to seek it out. At least I know where I stand with the citizens of Ar Ramadi.
"At least I know where I stand with the citizens of Ar Ramadi."
Ouch. Do Democrat leaders support the troops?
The troops sure don't seem to think so, and they're more than likely right.
Update: Blackfive has an excellent post on how counter-insurgency works called
COIN: The Gravity Well. It's a must-read.
Allah now has the
Reid video up at HotAir, which
turns one today.
Update: JD Johannes reports that indeed, "the war may be over and we just don't realize it" in parts of al Anbar.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
12:06 PM
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Democrat Senate seats are Harry Reid's pieces of silver.
Posted by: arch at April 24, 2007 03:36 PM (n6Q1C)
2
Man, I cant stand Harry Reid. How can he claim he knows what going on in Iraq while skipping meetings the good General. He's saying the war is lost becuase it will get him some more seats in the next election. He's got the poll numbers to prove it and they are very exciting from what I hear.
yeah and i got a qoute for that douche harry reid. these families need us here. obviously he has never been in iraq. or at least the area worth seeing. the parts where insurgency is rampant and the buildings are blown to pieces. we need to stay here and help rebuild. if iraq didnt want us here then why do we have IP's voluntering everyday to rebuild their cities. and working directly with us too. same with the IA's. it sucks that iraqi's have more patriotism for a country that has turned to complete shit more than the people in america who drink starbucks everyday. we could leave this place and say we are sorry to the terrorists. and then we could wait for 3,000 more american civilians to die before we say "hey thats not nice" again. and the sad thing is after we WIN this war. people like him will say he was there for us the whole time
Theres a good soldier doing his duty and telling it without politics, but with PATRIOTISM. Maybe the American people should listen to him and others like him instead of Anti-war Liberals. Its like asking France to plan a Fourth of July parade.
Posted by: Justin at April 24, 2007 04:05 PM (NiTuu)
3
I think we should insist that turn tail harry is hounded from the Senate. He is obviously a liar and a coward. He is truely the leader of the Democrats.
Posted by: Zelsdorf Ragshaft III at April 24, 2007 05:34 PM (VGAdU)
4
In 2005 we were also hearing that we were "winning" and that things were "getting better." Can you blame normal people for believing the facts, as opposed to the statements of people like Krauthammer who have been consistently wrong on national security? Or Petraeus, a good soldier whose job it is to carry out Bush's stupid plan? (That's nothing against Petraeus; as a general, he has to carry out Bush's plan, and should. But it also means that he cannot and should not tell the whole truth: even if he knows we cannot "win," it's not for him to say so.)
The truth is that American "progress" in Iraq is irrelevant: it's an Iraqi civil war and the only thing that really matters is inter-Iraqi violence. (Al-Qaeda, Iran, etc are minor factors by comparison.) This means that America cannot "win" unless America takes sides in the Iraqi civil war.
So people who are serious about America's national security, like Harry Reid, want to do what's in America's interest: find a way out of Iraq. Bush hates America and wants more Americans to die (and waste more American taxpayer money) to avoid admitting that we cannot "win" in Iraq.
So do you stand with America's interests like Reid, or do you stand with Bush, who wants us to do what is not in our interests (stay in Iraq forever)? Apparently you folks love Bush more than you love America. Sad that you want to sell out our national security interests for the sake of Bush's ego....
Posted by: M.A. at April 24, 2007 06:21 PM (JGJFa)
5
What's sad is those who are claiming progress in Ramadi don't seem to realize that the insurgents have picked up on the fact that the surge is building in that area, and consequently have moved on to areas like Diyala and areas around Mosul.
Same goes for those who are reporting progress in Baghdad. Sectarian violence, one component of the violence, is down (there's been a big uptick in car bombings though), but does that mean it's been neutralized? No, it's because Sadr has commanded his followers to lay low for the time being. Those militia members are still out there, they've still got guns, and their bloodlust for Sunnis is not going away.
In other words...whack-a-mole, anyone?
Posted by: Arbotreeist at April 24, 2007 06:47 PM (N8M1W)
6
Shorter M.A.:
"I don't understand a thing about the complexities this war, that "the plan" is Petraeus', not Bush's, and I don't care that Iraqi soldiers, journalists, and civilians, and American ground troops (not just generals) are all reporting seeing signs of progress.
"What I do understand is that Harry Reid says the war is lost and that General Petraeus must be a liar if things aren't as dismal as I want them to be."
I think that about sums it up.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at April 24, 2007 06:59 PM (HcgFD)
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"The plan is Petraeus', not Bush's
Ah, Confederate Yankee doesn't understand the concept of civilian control of the military.
Whether Petraeus agrees with the specifics of the current plan, it was not his decision to escalate the war, nor his decision to declare that we will stay forever; that's Bush's job to make those decisions. Any person in charge in Iraq would and should carry out Bush's plan of escalating the war and staying forever.
And of course, the same reports of "progress" are heard every year, nay, every month; as witness the article linked above. They are always wrong. Apparently you're like Charlie Brown, Bush is Lucy, and the football is the idea that we are "winning" in Iraq.
Again, those who are serious about America's national security interests want to get out of Iraq; you hate America and love Bush, so you want America to stay in Iraq forever. Sad, really.
Posted by: M.A. at April 24, 2007 07:50 PM (mQOE3)
8
Ah, so even though Petraeus literally wrote the manual on counter-insurgency, Bush gets credit for it? I see we're dealing with a true intellectual giant here, ready to ignore any fact and gloss over any inconsistency in his own argument to keep pushing "Bush lied, people died."
I'm still waiting for such smart people as M.A. to explain how abandoning Iraq is in this nation's long-term national security interests. They're kinda like the underpants gnome auxilliary of the Cindy Sheehan Glee Club.
They're quite sure that losing the war is somehow in our country's long-term best interests, but they're never able to explain how or why losing is good for either Iraqis or non-liberal Americans.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at April 24, 2007 08:50 PM (HcgFD)
9
MA,
Again, those who are serious about America's national security interests want to get out of Iraq; you hate America and love Bush, so you want America to stay in Iraq forever. Sad, really.
Is good national security giving Iraq away to the jihadists and telling them we dont have the stomach to finish something WE started. By WE I mean the Dems and the Republicans. I can bust out about 30 quotes of Harry Reid, Billary, Pelosi and many many other Dems DEMANDING we go into Iraq, starting in 98 so dont tell me it was because big bad Bush bullied them into it.
Saying conservatives, including Bush, hate america is truely crazy. If you really believe what you said, then I truely pitty you.
The troops say they are seeing progress. The Iraqi people are saying they are seeing progress. I think the scariest thing to every Liberal in this country right now, is victory. And you know it.
Posted by: Justin at April 24, 2007 09:02 PM (NiTuu)
10
"What I do understand is that Harry Reid says the war is lost and that General Petraeus must be a liar if things aren't as dismal as I want them to be."
I agree he definetly hit the nail on the head with that one. Thats why the Dems refuse to hear Petraeus's report. Once they hear exact details of how progress is being made they would have to lie about it, and then they would be busted. Why are they scared of the facts?
Posted by: Justin at April 24, 2007 09:06 PM (NiTuu)
11
Ah, so even though Petraeus literally wrote the manual on counter-insurgency, Bush gets credit for it?
Petraeus's counter-insurgency tactics are just that: tactics. That's up to him. But the actual plan -- in this case, escalating the war and insisting that we stay in Iraq forever -- is up to the civilian leadership.
The point is that this is more of Bush's usual cowardly tactics of pretending that attacks on him are attacks on Da Troopz. Stop pretending that Bush's plan is validated because a General whose job it is to carry out the plan is, well, doing his job. It is Petraeus's job to pretend that Bush's plan is working, just as it would be his job to pretend that Jimmy Carter or Clinton's stupid plans were working, if they were in charge.
I'm still waiting for such smart people as M.A. to explain how abandoning Iraq is in this nation's long-term national security interests.
All I need to explain is that staying in Iraq forever is not in our long-term national security interests.
The longer we stay in Iraq, the worse things will be when we finally leave. Look at Vietnam: because we stayed too long, Pol Pot was able to take over Cambodia. That doesn't mean that Pol Pot was our fault, but it does mean that people who claim we pulled out too early are wrong; a bloodbath happened in part because we pulled out too late.
By insisting that we stay in Iraq, you are not only going to get more Americans killed, you guarantee a worse bloodbath when we finally do leave.
Iraq will not be wonderful and happy no matter when we leave; that simply proves it was a bad idea to invade Iraq, topple an anti-Islamist dictator, and set up an Iranian client state. But since we cannot "win" in Iraq, and since the longer we stay the worse things will be when we leave, it follows that anyone who doesn't hate America must want to leave as soon as practically possible, while those who hate America (like Bush) want to prolong the occupation and guarantee a worse bloodbath.
Posted by: M.A. at April 24, 2007 09:55 PM (Mo9oz)
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DEMOCRATS HAVE A VERY GOOD REASON FOR OPPOSING THE WAR! With the communist scare gone, Socialism is now safe, just call it ‘Progressivism’.
“Liberalism (Websters): noun 1 : the quality or state of being liberal 2 a often capitalized : a movement in modern Protestantism emphasizing intellectual liberty and the spiritual and ethical content of Christianity b : a theory in economics emphasizing individual freedom from restraint and usually based on free--competition, the self-regulating market, and the gold standard c : a political philosophy based on belief in progress, the essential goodness of the human race, and the autonomy of the individual and standing for the protection of political and civil liberties d capitalized : the principles and policies of a Liberal party.”
George Bush Jr., Cheney, McCain, Gingrich, etc., constantly talk about these topics.
“Socialism (Websters): noun 1 : any of various economic and political theories advocating collective or governmental ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods 2 a : a system of society or group living in which there is no private property b : a system or condition of society in which the means of production are owned and controlled by the state 3 : a stage of society in Marxist theory transitional between capitalism and communism and distinguished by unequal distribution of goods and pay according to work done.”
Pelosi, Reid, Obama, Kerry, Edwards, Kennedy, etc. constantly want expanding government controls, economic leveling, controls on capitalism and competition, and top-down political structures where citizens are not trusted to govern themselves. The Democrat manifesto quietly chips away at the foundations of liberal democracy ‘progressively’, as socialists have been doing in Europe, Canada, and elsewhere for decades.
Socialism’s scope is global, they want global economic controls, global environmental controls, global government, and no wars between nations because they do not believe in nations. They want to stop all American wars, since these would be victories for Republican liberal democracy, not socialism. The Democrats support Islamists and apologize for them because both groups want to defeat Republican liberal democracy. An American defeat in Iraq would be a victory for Socialism, just as Vietnam was. To Democrats and their fellow-traveling main-stream media, anti-war posturing is not treasonous, because they are not loyal to America. Like most socialists, they loathe modern liberal democracy, and especially George Bush’s use of it, because it is their main competitor.
Posted by: DemocracyRules at April 24, 2007 10:08 PM (L/SIz)
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Make no mistake: militarily, this war is lost. You don't have to take my word for it, just ask General Petreaus himself: "There is no military solution to a problem like that in Iraq, to the insurgency of Iraq."
http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/meast/03/08/iraq.petraeus/index.html
We are wasting our military capability in Iraq, and a few anecdotes and emotional emails from troops in the field don't change this reality. Sure, they believe they are succeeding, and in their small part of the sandbox they probably are. But you can't post these today and just ignore the eleven soldiers who won't be sending any more emails because they died today in Muqdadiyah and Anbar. Or the fact that it has now taken us longer to subdue these insurgents than it took us to defeat the Nazis. This is not because our soldiers are incompetent, or even because Democrats don't support them. It is because "There is no military solution to a problem like that in Iraq, to the insurgency of Iraq." Thus spake the expert.
Withdrawing from Iraq makes the US more secure in at least three ways. First, it frees our military forces for action in Afghanistan, where the people who started this entire thing still hide and plan their next attack. We took our eye off the ball.
Second, it gives us back a strategic reserve. Should we need military forces to respond to threats from China or North Korea, we have nothing. This is folly, and our enemies know this.
Finally, it would make it easier for us to recover our respect as a world leader and work with other countries on problems like nuclear proliferation and financing of terrorist organizations.
You can argue that we don't need to worry about any of this--that all of our problems will be solved if we can just kill all the right Iraqis. Or maybe plant democracy there (at least until these newly empowered voters elect a government that adopts Sharia law and really begins to support our enemies).
But someone has to pay for it, and someone has to fight. What I'm getting sick of is not Democrats telling us the truth about our situation in Iraq. It's people like you using quotes from soldiers in the field--many who have spent two of the last three years dealing with this--to attack political opponents when you can't be bothered to join up and fight this war for our way of life yourself.
All of you who think we can solve the terrorism problem with military force need to get used to the idea that we will need a much larger military force to do so. I've been there, and I can tell you that what we have is almost broken. Just ask the Generals: http://www.washingtonpost (dot)com/wp-dyn/articles/A51687-2005Jan5.html
http://www.pbs (dot) org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/pentagon/themes/broken.html
http://www.antiwar (dot) com/pat/?articleid=10193
(URLs edited to pass through spam filter)
Saying the war is lost or the Army is broken may or may not embolden the enemy--but actually losing the war and breaking the Army certainly will. But instead of calling your representatives and asking them to raise your taxes to buy uparmored Hummers, body armor, and medical care for wounded troops you demand more money in your own wallets. And instead of enlisting yourselves, you rely on some 19-year-old corporal to make your political points for you.
If you were half the man you think you are, CY, you would call your local recruiter today. The number in Raliegh is 919 - 873-0797.
Posted by: R. Stanton Scott at April 24, 2007 10:19 PM (XNovw)
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Can someone define victory in Iraq? Seriously. For awhile you all were talking about how certain you are that we will leave behind a vibrant Democracy. I haven't heard that much lately. It seems like now you all think quelling the violence is the goal. Is that true? Just curious.
"Be glad of the good news: America is mired in the swamps of the Tigris and Euphrates. Bush is, through Iraq and its oil, easy prey. Here is he now, thank God, in an embarrassing situation and here is America today being ruined before the eyes of the whole world."
--Osama bin Laden, video message broadcast October 18, 2003
A looney, bloodthirsty zealot is saner than many of my fellow Americans. Nice job, boys. I take some satisfaction in the fact that the nation has turned its back on your president and your war, but not much. Mostly I'm depressed.
I understand why you keep smearing Reid and Pelosi. That's all you've got. You're bankrupt.
Posted by: Lex Steele at April 24, 2007 11:51 PM (40R2V)
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So do you stand with America's interests like Reid, or do you stand with Bush
Neither. I stand with the guys on the spot who know of what they speak.
Posted by: Purple Avenger at April 25, 2007 05:47 AM (DvLHg)
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Petraeus's counter-insurgency tactics are just that: tactics. That's up to him. But the actual plan -- in this case, escalating the war and insisting that we stay in Iraq forever -- is up to the civilian leadership.
Thank you for once again showing your ignorance of the difference between strategy and tactics, which is just one of many reasons I find liberal attempts to explain why the war is lost from a position of ignorance to be so amusing. Paetraeus crafted both the strategy and the tactics, based upon successful the successful pioneering work of French Lt. Col. David Galula. These tactics were highly successful in the area under his control battling the insurgency in Algeria, and were used successfully by the British in the Malaysian Emergency.
All President Bush can be given credit for is turning the war over to someone whom knows what he is doing, and taking his recommendations.
All I need to explain is that staying in Iraq forever is not in our long-term national security interests.
The longer we stay in Iraq, the worse things will be when we finally leave. Look at Vietnam: because we stayed too long, Pol Pot was able to take over Cambodia. That doesn't mean that Pol Pot was our fault, but it does mean that people who claim we pulled out too early are wrong; a bloodbath happened in part because we pulled out too late.
By insisting that we stay in Iraq, you are not only going to get more Americans killed, you guarantee a worse bloodbath when we finally do leave.
Do you have any credible links you can cite to back up your assertions? Somehow, I suspect not.
I'd like of you to find someone in a position of power that says we want to stay in Iraq "forever." I suspect that is an outright lie on your part.
Nor do I think you will be able to find any legitimate expert who will agree with your unsupported assertion that things must be worse when we finally leave. In fact, most experts tell us that if we do withdraw precipitously as liberals desire, that Iraq is far more likely to fail, and fall sway to outside influences from Saudi Arabia and Iran. There is a consensus developing, and this is a consensus of both military experts and long-term journalists in the area that understand the regional politics, that Iraq could develop into a proxy battleground between the Saudis and Iran, and that there is a risk that a liberal-abandoned Iraq could develop into regional war. With Saudi Arabia on one side of the Persian Gulf and Iran on the other in a shooting war, the Persian Gulf would be shut down. This would destroy the economies of emerging nations that rely upon Middle Eastern oil, and would plunge this nation into a recession, not to mention providing a fertile crescent for terrorist groups to train and develop in a failed state in Iraq. Please, explain to me how any of this is in our nation's best interests. The simple fact of the matter is that it isn't.
Iraq will not be wonderful and happy no matter when we leave; that simply proves it was a bad idea to invade Iraq, topple an anti-Islamist dictator, and set up an Iranian client state. But since we cannot "win" in Iraq, and since the longer we stay the worse things will be when we leave, it follows that anyone who doesn't hate America must want to leave as soon as practically possible, while those who hate America (like Bush) want to prolong the occupation and guarantee a worse bloodbath.
All dogma, no bite.
Iraqi Sunnis that once supported the insurgency have turned against it, and are now joining the IA and IP faster than they can be trained. They are setting up their own checkpoints, and capturing or killing insurgents. Al Anbar tribes formerly aligned with the insurgency are joining the political process, and have openly stated that they view America as their best chance.
I'd invite you to read up on how counterinsurgency operations very similar to the one in Iraq have in fact worked, and why they can succeed in Iraq. You won't of course, because failure has become your new religion.
Make no mistake: militarily, this war is lost. You don't have to take my word for it, just ask General Petreaus himself: "There is no military solution to a problem like that in Iraq, to the insurgency of Iraq."
What a masterful job of selectively quoting the good General.
If you've done any reading on COIN, or listened to Petraeus' full comments on the subject, you'd be forced to acknowledge that what he was actually saying is that there cannot be purely a military solution, not that the military isn't part of the solution. The larger battlefield, of course, is political, cultural, and economic in nature, and Petraeus is making sure to engage on those levels as well, though that aspect goes woefully underreported in the media. The biggest and most important part to "draining the swamp" is to provide potential insurgents with better options than fighting. Read the "gravity well" link in the post above for a good description of the analogy.
But you can't post these today and just ignore the eleven soldiers who won't be sending any more emails because they died today in Muqdadiyah and Anbar. Or the fact that it has now taken us longer to subdue these insurgents than it took us to defeat the Nazis. This is not because our soldiers are incompetent, or even because Democrats don't support them. It is because "There is no military solution to a problem like that in Iraq, to the insurgency of Iraq." Thus spake the expert.
Milking selective quotes of all they are worth, in order to avoid reality. Nice.
Perhaps a bit of history is in order. The Germans were a very rigid military society, and therefore, once we beat them on the conventional battlefield, they were effectively finished. The various insurgent groups, Sunni and Shia, are decentralized guerilla movements. History tells us that it take a good 10-20 years to completely quash such movements. We won't have to be there the entire time of course, in the numbers in which we are presently engaged. Based upon past implementations of COIN and the new willingness of Sunni al Anbar tribes to join the political process, we may be able to start substantially drawing down our forces within the next few years. History shows that while it is time and resource intensive, most insurgencies fail.
Withdrawing from Iraq makes the US more secure in at least three ways. First, it frees our military forces for action in Afghanistan, where the people who started this entire thing still hide and plan their next attack. We took our eye off the ball.
Second, it gives us back a strategic reserve. Should we need military forces to respond to threats from China or North Korea, we have nothing. This is folly, and our enemies know this.
Finally, it would make it easier for us to recover our respect as a world leader and work with other countries on problems like nuclear proliferation and financing of terrorist organizations.
Pipe-dreams, every one.
As noted earlier in this response, a too-quick withdrawal from Iraq to a far more unstable Middle East, and therefore threatens not just our economy, but that of the emerging oil-starved world. This makes us all less stable, not more stable. Second, you seem to lack a grasp of the differences between the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. Afghanistan is an entirely different kind of war, far lower in intensity, and projected to last far longer than Iraq.
If you haven't been keeping up--and obviously, you haven't--those who attacked us on 9/11 are not thought to be in Afghanistan, but across the border in the tribal regions of Afghanistan, and they aren't fairing all that well. Within the past few weeks there have been intense red-on-red conflicts there, with elements of the Pakistani tribal Taliban overrunning al-Qaeda-aligned terrorist groups.
As for threats from North Korea and China, you seem to forget that the two branches of our military most likely to respond to aggressive acts from either of those countries, the USAF and Navy, are hardly tied down. To say we have "nothing" is frankly inaccurate, and deceptive, and perhaps purposefully so.
And do you honestly think that if we are defeated that we will gain respect? Upon what sort of daft reasoning is that thought based? Please, show me the countries that fled the battlefield and were more respected as a result of deciding to fail.
Nuclear proliferation and the combating the financing of terrorist organizations are not military battles, but diplomatic ones. It is a pity you would attempt to conflate such different things for such nefarious purposes.
But someone has to pay for it, and someone has to fight. What I'm getting sick of is not Democrats telling us the truth about our situation in Iraq. It's people like you using quotes from soldiers in the field--many who have spent two of the last three years dealing with this--to attack political opponents when you can't be bothered to join up and fight this war for our way of life yourself.
Oh, the dreaded "chickenhawk" argument.
Yawn. How original.
If you were half the man you think you are, CY, you would call your local recruiter today. The number in Raliegh is 919-873-0797.
Somehow, I doubt I'll have any better luck with them than I did with the Marines on 9/12, or the NY National Guard in January of 2004.
But thanks for hiding behind personal attacks. It shows just how weak you and your arguments, really are.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at April 25, 2007 08:44 AM (9y6qg)
17
I've read the comments and would like to add my two cents. I wrote an article on my blog called "US Government, the war in Iraq, and Public Opinion". It is too long for the comments section but reflects what many Americans that love this country believe.
http://www.dipnomad.blogspot.com/
Posted by: DipNomad at April 25, 2007 08:58 AM (B+qrE)
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Safer here than there? A Marine son of a Christian friend was killed in a car accident here in Maine after coming home from his third voluntary trip to Fallujah! His brother(there are10 home-schooled kids in the family) signed up and will head to Iraq in May. Army infantry.
God Bless them all. We pray for them daily and I get really mad to think these traitors are using this war and the troops safety for political reasons. Mind you it is all about abortion and sexual immorality and Supreme Court nominations.
Posted by: Norton Webber at April 25, 2007 09:00 AM (tUKBw)
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http://jcrue.wordpress.com/recall-reid/
Semper Fi.
Posted by: jcrue at April 25, 2007 09:13 AM (ZDQoM)
20
Trackbacked by The Thunder Run - Web Reconnaissance for 04/25/2007
A short recon of what’s out there that might draw your attention.
Posted by: David M at April 25, 2007 09:45 AM (jb28t)
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"History tells us that it take a good 10-20 years to completely quash such movements."
Name one that was "quashed," even after 20 years. Algeria? Viet Nam?
You may want to try the whole enlisting thing again. Standards are lower now because the challenge of conducting sustained operations using a volunteer military force is straining our forces. I don't see a rebuttal of that argument. Or you could see if Blacwater will take you--they could use your weapons expertise, they pay well, and you would be "supporting the troops." At any rate, if you really believe in this war, and you don't mind risking your life to help fight it, you will find a way.
And besides claiming that our Air Force and Navy could handle other crises without ground forces, you do not substantially answer my point that this operation is causing a serious deterioration of the quality of our military forces. There can be little doubt that it gives potential enemies the perception--probably correct--that our capabilities are strained and tied down. The bottom line is that our military establishment generally must be much larger if we wish to sustain operations on this scale while maintaining a robust, deterrent military force.
And speaking of Afghanistan, take a look at this:
http://www.hinduonnet.com/thehindu/thscrip/print.pl?file=20070323000905700.htm&date=fl2405/&prd=fline&
We are losing there because we took our eye off the ball--several times. That one warlord attacked another says no more about what is really going on there than what a corporal says about a small portion of the sandbox.
You can accuse me of quoting selectively (though you managed to quote only soldiers who agree with staying in Iraq--see http://www.militarycity.com/polls/2006_main.php, and http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/02/22/60minutes/main2505412.shtml).
You can yawn when I call you a chickenhawk. But I don't see any links you more complete quotes from General Petraeus, nor any substantial rebuttal of my argument. I don't see your call for a draft, or for higher taxes to pay for the war you favor so.
We are not losing this war because our troops aren't brave enough or can't do their jobs. Brave men and women fight and die every day doing the best they can with what they have. We are losing because the incompetent boobs running the show from the White House didn't have the brains to properly prepare, act strategically, or shift tactics when necessary. We sent too few troops, equipped them poorly, and managed the reconstruction according to ideology, without regard to the people who live there.
Largely this was because the Administration, and the Republican Congress, could not bring themselves to truthfully inform Americans about the true nature of the war we would be fighting. Instead of getting the entire nation behind this, calling for sacrifice (another percent of taxes from the super rich, for example), and listening to experts from all perspectives, Bush decided to deride experts like Shinseki and ask us to all go shopping.
People like you believe that there is no need for you to actually fight--or at least pay for the war you support. It is enough to put a yellow ribbon on your car, attack Democrats who want to change a policy that is clearly not optimum, and say you want to "win" and that you "support the troops."
You won't win this thing by talking about it. I believe that if you believe in a cause, you should take action to support it besides flapping your gums.
Posted by: R. Stanton Scott at April 25, 2007 10:01 AM (XNovw)
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"Retired Marine Gen. John Sheehan summed up the military's skepticism in explaining why he turned down White House feelers to become 'war czar' for Iraq and Afghanistan: 'The very fundamental issue is, they don't know where the hell they're going.'
--David Ignatius
Shinseki, Odom, Sheehan, Zinni, and Schwarzkopf are all prominent retired generals who regard the Iraq war as a mistake.
Posted by: Lex Steele at April 25, 2007 10:50 AM (40R2V)
23
"History tells us that it take a good 10-20 years to completely quash such movements."
Name one that was "quashed," even after 20 years. Algeria? Viet Nam?
The Malayan Emergency, where the British won in 12 years. The Spanish Civil War, where Franco defeated Republican Spanish rebels in three years. The Second Boer War, which lasted three years. None of the examples is completely analagous to what we are facing in Iraq, but no war is completely like another, and in all three circumstances, insurgencies were defeated.
As for Algeria and Vietnam, Galula's doctrine (which formed a basis for that of Petraeus and others around the world) was highly successful where implemented, but left-wing politicians in France forced other actions, which led to a final French defeat. Sound familar? Likewise, the Viet Cong were destroyed as a viable insurgency during the Tet Offensive, but American liberal politicians forced us out of that war, as well.
As for your continued, rather craven "chickenhawk" squawking, there is little I can do in the military with surgically (partially) repaired knees. I've tried repeatedly, even attempting to convince the NYNG recruiter that the unit I was attempting to join was mounted, and therefore my knee problems shouldn't prohibit me from joining, but they saw it differently, much to my dismay. As for Blackwater, based here in NC, they hire only those with applicable military backgrounds.
All that said, I am doing some work for the military using the skillset I do have, though I will not discuss it here. I'm doing as much as I can in my limited capacity, while you're doing as much as you can to lose, including attacking those who want to win.
You can accuse me of quoting selectively (though you managed to quote only soldiers who agree with staying in Iraq...
But I don't see any links you more complete quotes from General Petraeus, nor any substantial rebuttal of my argument.
Here is a more accurate description of Petraeus' remarks:
Gen Petraeus said improving the situation in Iraq required more than armed force.
"There is no military solution to a problem like that in Iraq, to the insurgency of Iraq," he said.
Military action is necessary to help improve security... but it is not sufficient. There needs to be a political aspect."
He said some groups "who have felt the new Iraq did not have a place for them" would have to be engaged in talks.
Just as I said previously and accurately, there are multiple aspects of this conflict, and the military does play a role, just not the only role. As is readily apparent, you are guilty as charged of selectively quoting the General, stripping his words of context. I think your credibility is now at something of a low ebb.
I'll also warn you that I grow tired of your personal attacks. Debate the issues with facts, or find another venue.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at April 25, 2007 11:07 AM (9y6qg)
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Now, now, CY - let's not confuse the issue with facts!
Posted by: Dan Irving at April 25, 2007 11:25 AM (zw8QA)
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Fact: Despite localized success stories, the war in Iraq is being lost as a military matter. Security is insufficient to promote reconstruction. American soldiers are dying every day. Insurgent groups have turned on al-Q'aida, but they are beginning to form a united front against the US. Iraqi forces have not been effectively trained, and in fact may be riddled with insurgents who take their training and weapons to use or sell for use against us. The Iraqi Parliament rarely meets, and when it does it cannot agree on organizing principles (federalism, sharing of oil revenue) for a stable government. Insurgent groups can operate more or less at will in most parts of the country, and the "surge," at least at the tempo and size it operates today, can at best secure portions of the state. It is difficult to figure out how anyone can define this as anything but "losing."
Fact: More and more serving and retired officers and soldiers believe that the war was either not a good idea in the beginning, is being lost now, or both. They believe this is because of the general incompetence of the civilian leadedrship. General Sheehan, when asked to become a "war czar" (itself distinguishable in what way from a "Secretary of Defense," or "Commander in Chief") said no because he believes the current administration has no idea what the heck it is trying to do. To Mr. Steele's list of generals who now believe that the war is being lost and a change of direction is needed you can add Colin Powell, Wesley Clark, Greg Newbold, John Batiste, George Trainor, Paul Eaton (with whom I served in Bosnia) and others.
Fact: The war is also being lost diplomatically. We transformed a neighboring state, Iran, which sought accomodation with us after 9-11 by helping us stabilize Afghanistan into an enemy state with a client on its southwestern border. We have alienated traditional allies, or at least their populations by sending innocent people to concentration camps and using torture to extract information from those who have none. Most of the world today considers the US a more dangerous threat than terrorism because of our apparent willingness to trump up charges against states and leaders we don't like and then bomb their populations more or less indiscriminately.
Fact: The war is costing billions of dollars every day, and we are risking our economic security by borrowing the money to pay for it because the wealthy in this country are happy to profit from a stable, well-defended state but do not wish to pay for it. Instead of calling for sacrifice in the form of a draft or higher taxes or even some sort of voluntary program to help wounded soldiers, our government told us that we could fight a war while going about our business as usual--we could pass the sacrifice along to a small group of soldiers and their families.
Fact: Our military forces are strained, and experts say they are at the breaking point because of the volunteer forces--with personnel recruited in competition with the rest of the economy--easily supports a peacetime or cold war military, but cannot supply the manpower to sustain operations long term. We have a back-door draft through "stop-loss" programs, and our forces at any rate must be expanded to provide the personnel and material resources to keep the op-tempo in Iraq while ensuring we can deal with other threats as they arise. Still, many of the people who support the war cannot be bothered to fight for their country because they are too busy accumulating wealth, and they make themselves feel better by putting yellow ribbons on their cars.
I find your concern over personal attacks from me--for perhaps incorrectly suggesting cowardice on your part--interesting given that you don't seem to mind name calling on your own part ("Senator Lost," "White Flag Harry Reid") or by your other commenters ("douche," "turn tail Harry," "liar and a coward"). Personal attacks appear to pass ethical muster when aimed at your political opponents.
Sorry if I hurt your feelings--my apologies if I misjudged your willingness to serve--even if you have no such contrition for the personal slurs aimed in the other direction. But you set the tone for the discussion in your original post, and if you think this is inappropriate you should look in the mirror for the problem. Or you can just make those who disagree with you go away--it is, in the end, your website, and you can ban inconvenient facts and uncomfortable challenges from it. But you can't change the facts--or the reality that many of the people with the most expertise in the field agree with my version--by quoting a few grunts from the sandbox or getting rid of me.
Posted by: R. Stanton Scott at April 25, 2007 01:45 PM (mZkfj)
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Fact: Despite localized success stories, the war in Iraq is being lost as a military matter.
Not a fact at all, and approaching delusional.
Security is insufficient to promote reconstruction.
Depending on the part of the country you're in. The Kurdish provinces to the north have booming economies, and Iraq's Taleb Tabtabai is about to go digital in efforts to keep up with the increasing number of applications by foreigners who want to invest in Iraqi companies. Obvious, reconstruction is happening, if not at the pace most of us would like.
Insurgent groups have turned on al-Q'aida, but they are beginning to form a united front against the US.
Patently false. The insurgent groups are being picked to pieces by the Sunni tribes that once supported them, and the survivors are coming together as their individual cells and groups are rolled up, or rolled over. We're seeing just that in al Anbar, Diyala, and in Kirkuk, where Baathist dead-enders are boxed in and are lashing out against anyone and everyone is a desperate bid to keep from being overwhelmed. It's far more accurate to call it a survivor's support group than a united front.
Insurgent groups can operate more or less at will in most parts of the country, and the "surge," at least at the tempo and size it operates today, can at best secure portions of the state.
I'd love to see you cite evidence or where insurgent groups can operate "at will" anywhere in Iraq, much less your preposterous claim that they operate at will in "most parts" of the country. Please, show me where Insurgents openly parade down city streets and control entire towns as they once did. Not in Kirkuk. Not in Fallujah. Not in Ramadi. Not in Baghdad. Not in Basra. In all of these places, they are the hunted, not the hunters.
As for the goals of U.S. forces, out goal is not to secure the entire state, and that simple fact of the matter is that not all of the state is insecure. Of 18 provinces, we have little or nothing to do in seven of them (3 Kurdish, four Arab) where the locals manage their own affairs. Some are suggesting that perhaps three more provinces may be turned over to local Iraqi control by late 2008, a number that is not unreasonable. When Iraqi forces control 10 of 18 provinces--more than half--will you still declare this a lost war?
Somehow, I'm quite sure that you will.
As for what will happen if we should follow liberal suggestions and turn tail and run from Iraq, Peshmerga General Mam Rostam reflects on how that will affect the region:
"If America pulls out of Iraq, they will fail in Afghanistan," Mam Rostam said.
Hardly anyone in Congress seems to consider that the Taliban insurgency in Afghanistan might become much more severe if similar tactics are proven effective in Iraq.
"And they will fail with Iran," he continued. "They will fail everywhere with all Eastern countries. The war between America and the terrorists will move from Iraq and Afghanistan to America itself. Do you think America will do that? The terrorists gather their agents in Afghanistan and Iraq and fight the Americans here. If you pull back, the terrorists will follow you there. They will try, at least. Then Iran will be the power in the Middle East. Iran is the biggest supporter of terrorism. They support Hezbollah, Hamas, Islamic Jihad, and Ansar Al Islam. You know what Iran will do with those elements if America goes away."
Of course, he's only been fighting in Iraq almost his entire life.
Harry Reid will probably consider him a liar, too.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at April 25, 2007 02:35 PM (9y6qg)
27
A little more reality for our "reality-based" commenters, showing precisely what General Petraeus actually said:
Q (Through interpreter.) ... You said that the host country can determine who are the reconcilable groups. But everybody should be under the supremacy of law, and all military activities should be cancelled. So how are these people going to be part of the solution?
GEN. PETRAEUS: ... With respect, again, to the — you know, the idea of the reconcilables and the irreconcilables, this is something in which the Iraqi government obviously has the lead. It is something that they have sought to — in some cases, to reach out. And I think, again, that any student of history recognizes that there is no military solution to a problem like that in Iraq, to the insurgency of Iraq. Military action is necessary to help improve security, for all the reasons that I stated in my remarks, but it is not sufficient.
A political resolution of various differences, of this legislation, of various senses that people do not have a stake in the success of the new Iraq, and so forth, that is crucial. That is what will determine in the long run the success of this effort. And again, that clearly has to include talking with and eventually reconciling differences with some of those who have felt that the new Iraq did not have a place for them, whereas I think, again, Prime Minister Maliki clearly believes that it does, and I think that his actions will demonstrate that, along with the other ministers...
Saying that the war cannot be won solely militarily, but instead requires a combination of military and political action, is a far cry from the purposeful misstatements made by those who would (unsuccessfully) seek to trick us into believing that Petraeus thinks we are fighting a lost war.
Of course, this also points out something else quite obvious: Harry Reid, who considers our troops, their generals, and their all CiC liars, is a liar himself.
Shocking, I know.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at April 25, 2007 03:26 PM (9y6qg)
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You Libs keep saying "we need a change in direction" to win this war. Isn't Patraeus and the surge a change in direction? Thinking pulling out is a good "change in direction" that will surely change things for the better is wrong. And those generals you named above, when exactly did they make those comments? A year ago? Maybe two years ago? Throwing the Iraqi people to the dogs is a horrible idea.
Posted by: Justin at April 25, 2007 03:42 PM (NiTuu)
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I suspect that those American soldiers mentioned here and elsewhere are starting to draw some conclusions themselves about which side in this country meets the definition of "domestic enemies" mentioned in their oaths. M.A, R.Stanton Scott, and Lex Steele might want to think about that.
Posted by: SDN at April 25, 2007 06:35 PM (TIw0n)
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SDN: It sounds like you are accusing a a twenty year veteran and former combat soldier of treachery against his country. Am I a "domestic enemy" because I think that our civilian leadership is incompetent and the war against our enemies is going poorly? Because I exercise my right--the one I personally defended--to disagree with my elected officials? Do you really want to go there?
If they decide to do something about those of us who think the war should end, they will have work to do policing their own ranks: 42% disapprove of the conduct of the war and half think it can no longer be won (http://www.militarycity.com/polls/2006_main.php).
Many of these people are former colleagues and personal friends of mine. We've shared beers and MREs and subzero nights downrange. I taught some of them marksmanship and helped them muscle a tank tread back onto a sprocket. I'm not worried.
We could go back and forth forever trading quotes from soldiers in the field, generals, and Pershmergas without changing any minds. At least we learn something--you folks have pointed me to sources of information about which I was ignorant. For me they need some vetting, but I don't dismiss them out of hand.
Or at least I did. You people don't seem to have the capacity to consider opposing viewpoints without name calling ("delusional," "douche," "liar," "coward," "domestic enemies"). Anyone who suggests that after four years a different strategy might be called for is a traitor or worse (and by the way: the surge is not a new strategy--we may have pushed down on the gas pedal a bit, but we're still on the same road, and even if it is paved with good intentions, it still leads you-know-where).
The policy problem, in a nutshell, is that 67 months after the attacks on the World Trade Center the leader of those who planned and executed the attack is still at large, despite President Bush's promise to bring him to justice. His organization, in the larger sense, is stronger than ever as our policies promote resentment against the US and recruitment to his cause. Our military forces are largely tied down in Iraq, and even if they are successful there will still have to face enemies in Afghanistan and potentially China and North Korea. The volunteer Army is largely broken, with many troops getting out and others wishing they could, held back only by stop loss. Our military leadership and our soldiers have done everything we have asked them and more, but the civilian leadership that makes policy has screwed it up every step of the way. Now we have most of our effective combat units in Iraq while our enemies recruit new forces and improve their political and military positions everywhere else. Beyond what General Sheehan calls "shorthand" talk about establishing a democratic Iraq, our government can't even tell us what success there means.
The solution you prefer is to just keep doing what we are doing. As a soldier, I know that sometimes you have to back off because what you are doing just isn't working. Sometimes we had to do the right thing--even while everyone called us names--and tell the boss that he's screwed up. In the Army we call this moral courage, and I'll stack mine up against anyone's.
Posted by: R. Stanton Scott at April 25, 2007 09:15 PM (XNovw)
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RSS, moral courage does make you right. It just makes you sure of your own views. OK, don't denigrate others' views. They're not truths. History will show us truths, probably after we are both gone.
Posted by: CoRev at April 25, 2007 10:30 PM (0U8Ob)
32
CoRev: No, moral courage does not validate views. And you may be right that the real facts on the ground--who is right about the course of this war--will only come out over time as history is written.
But a sense of moral courage does require that I stand up for what I believe the correct policy to be, based on information about what is taking place in Iraq every day, even when if causes people like CY and SDN to say or imply that I don't support my former colleagues or that I don't love my country.
Harry Reid is doing what he thinks is right, and so are you guys. That should command respect, but in this venue it does not. I am not the writer here who denigrates others' views--I denigrated actions (or inaction--more below). I do not believe you guys have the facts straight, and therefore disagree with you about the course of the war and what a better policy would look like. But read the original post and the thread it inspired, and make an honest evaluation about the source and targets of the aspersions cast here.
Reid no more thinks the soldiers quoted in the original post are lying than I think CY is. He may think they are misinformed, or convinced based on what they see that the war goes better than it does--as I think Mr. Owens is. But he never called them liars--CY implied that he thinks they are in an effort to "denigrate" his views.
It is true that I have little truck for people who think we are in a fight for our lives but can't be bothered to contribute to the cause in ways that risk themselves or their wealth--and I don't mind saying so. Some Americans do this, and criticizing their actions--and hypocrisy--is fair. (Take a look in the mirror. You know who you are). Note, however, that after hearing evidence against my inference that CY is one of them I agreed that I got it wrong.
CY, and many of the commenters here, have little truck for people who disagree with our current government's war policy, and they don't mind saying so. Fair enough. But the first tactic used here was a personal attack on a political opponent based on name-calling and implying that he holds views he probably does not. And after hearing evidence that at a minimum suggests that the question of the progress on the war is more complicated than what individual soldiers see on the ground--and that valid evidence exists for both points of view--no one here wants to admit that maybe opponents of the war are not traitors. We are American citizens who dissent from current policy and have mustered the moral courage to say so.
I don't personally think you do yourselves any favors by carrying on a conversation about the war that favors insulting political opponents over careful consideration of facts on both sides. But it is, again, Mr. Owens' web site to operate as he pleases. Perhaps the goal is to increase traffic, and over-the-top discourse will probably do this. If the goal, however, is to contribute to a reasoned policy debate, this sort of rhetoric is less useful.
Do what you can afford.
Posted by: R. Stanton Scott at April 26, 2007 08:30 AM (XNovw)
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It isn't possible to be a military hero and a traitor? Tell that to Benedict Arnold. Welcome to an unfortunately not select club.
Posted by: SDN at April 26, 2007 10:41 PM (CNYKS)
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Not As It Appears
Redstate is currently running a post by "streiff" called AP is Popular with the Troops that claims to show an American soldier on patrol in Iraq "flipping off" the Associated Press photographer, Maya Alleruzzo.
Blackfive provides a link to the original caption that IDs the soldier as:
Staff Sgt Patrick Lockett 25, of Huntsville Alabama of Alpha Troop, 3rd Squadron, 1st Cavalry Regiment, 3rd Infantry Division patrols in Al Kargoulia, 25 miles (40 kilometers) east of Baghdad, Iraq, Fri., April 20, 2007. The 3rd Brigade of the 3rd Infantry Division is back in Iraq for the third time since rolling into Baghdad in 2003. (AP Photo/Maya Alleruzzo)
On first blush, it appears to be exactly what RedState and Blackfive describe. But sometimes, even pictures can tell less than the whole story.
I got an email from
Michael Yon this morning that including the following:
Bob,
You are the man for this. Maya Alleruzzo, currently a photographer for AP, is getting flack. I know Maya and she is very pro troop…
I would email to Redstate directly but their email address is on my laptop (somewhere else). I think it's just a mistake because the people at Redstate have their hearts in the right place. Maya is out here in the worst parts of Iraq and she's a treasure -- though I know her association with AP puts her into harm's way.
I'm trying to run down Staff Sgt Lockett, who would be the ultimate authority on what was occurring in this picture. If I get a response, I'll be sure to post it. In the meantime, I trust Yon, who seems to know Alleruzzo, and the work of Alleruzzo herself. In addition to taking photos for the Associated Press, Alleruzzo occasionally writes.
Does this author of
this article strike you as the kind of person our soldiers would flip off? How about
this one, detailing the courage of a paralyzed Iraqi officer?
I don't think so. This sounds like the kind of photographer/journalist that soldiers would love to have around.
Of course, a closer look at the image may tell the story on its own.
I've cropped and enlarged the photo, and done some extremely high-tech phalanges modeling. Count the fingers, folks.
Unless Staff Sgt. Lockett is related to the Six-Fingered Man from
The Princess Bride, the photo itself seems to provide the debunking. The bones extending from the wrist (crude gray lines) through the pinky finger define the outside shape of Lockett's glove and the hand it contains, and from there it is a simple matter to merely count the remaining knuckle impressions (shown with white dots) on the glove itself to account for the ring, middle, and index fingers.
It is the index finger you see alongside the M4 receiver, with the other three fingers (middle finger included) curled around the pistol grip of the carbine.
It seems a blogosphere retraction is in order.
Update: I'm
very disappointed with Redstate at the moment. I sent them an email alerting them to the apparent fact that their claims were false, and to date, they've refused to issue a correction.
Apparently, they're either not monitoring their email, or are possessed by their own brand of "truthiness."
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
08:36 AM
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1
It looks like he has what ever finger he desires on the safety. Some put an index, others the middle. Big deal.
Posted by: David Caskey at April 24, 2007 08:48 AM (G5i3t)
2
much ado about nothing....
Posted by: jon at April 24, 2007 08:51 AM (5/OOn)
3
The safety's actually on the other side, and is flipped with the thumb.
One of the safety rules is to keep your finger straight and off the trigger, as seen in the pic. When you're rolling with a condition 1 weapon, that's how your finger always is.
Good catch CY, and nice high-tech phalange modeling. Did you do that in a CSI lab?

Posted by: paully at April 24, 2007 08:58 AM (/7U2B)
4
And you felt you needed to call the other blogs on it why? I suspect you think you are doing the right thing however it didn't advance anything and alot of us enjoyed the thought of the soldier flipping off the AP as they and Al Reuters have photoshopped so much and been so critical of our military men and women, so thanks for taking away the illusion.
Posted by: Rightmom at April 24, 2007 09:07 AM (0lpqx)
5
I think it was a two-fold purpose:
a) To protect and recognize journalists who are on our side
b) To show the left that a widely read rightwing blog isn't afraid to call bullshit and will strive to maintain integrity, even if something happens to agree with what lots of us would really like to see
Posted by: paully at April 24, 2007 09:33 AM (/7U2B)
6
And you felt you needed to call the other blogs on it why? I suspect you think you are doing the right thing however it didn't advance anything and alot of us enjoyed the thought of the soldier flipping off the AP as they and Al Reuters have photoshopped so much and been so critical of our military men and women, so thanks for taking away the illusion.
I can't actually beleive you feel this way.
I am doing the right thing by reporting the facts, no matter where those facts lead us.
This AP photographer was not being flipped off. If you read the two links to articles she has written, she seems to have a deep respect for both American troops and our coalition allies, and the sacrifices they have made. We don't have enough honest journalists out there, and I'll do my damndest to defend the good ones against obviously wrong attacks.
Publishing this post "advances" the truth, the very thing we hammer the media the most to provide. Instead, you advocate nothing less than the flip side of trutherism. Your basic message is "Screw the facts. This is what I want to believe." This is warped, wrong, and dishonorable.
I will not apologize for attempting to publish the truth and correct inaccurate information, no matter who issues it.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at April 24, 2007 09:46 AM (9y6qg)
7
Nice job CY. I bet we would never see a post like this at DU, FDL or KOS.
Posted by: Specter at April 24, 2007 10:05 AM (ybfXM)
8
Posts like this are what make me respect this blog, even though we're on opposite sides of the political aisle.
And Pally is right. My weapons instructor would have smaked me upside the head if I ever placed my finger on the trigger unless I was ready to fire.
Hoo-uh, Bob, for keeping things straight.
On a side note, if I was on my third tour, I would be tempted to give someone the finger, but the photographer would be way down on the list.
Posted by: David Terrenoire at April 24, 2007 10:53 AM (kxecL)
9
I think he is flipping the bird but he is doing it to keep his photo out of the press and thus himself and family more secure, a common tactic. He probably doesn't know or care who the photog is or works for. Just a thought
Posted by: Ray Robison at April 24, 2007 01:45 PM (z62e3)
10
alot of us enjoyed the thought of the soldier flipping off the AP as they and Al Reuters have photoshopped so much and been so critical of our military men and women, so thanks for taking away the illusion.
Please tell me that Rightmom is a parody. I know people deceive themselves in order to remain happy, but very few will actually admit it. From there it's a short trip to the padded room...
Posted by: scarshapedstar at April 24, 2007 03:24 PM (glUhi)
11
Well....it was fun while it lasted. Until I saw the photo enlarged I figured that he was doing what all of us thought he was doing! Michael Yon's email put everything into it's proper perspective regarding Maya Alleruzzo.
Posted by: lib_NOT at April 24, 2007 04:05 PM (WKFlK)
12
Good catch CY. Keep up the truth instead of the "truth".
Posted by: Justin at April 24, 2007 04:10 PM (NiTuu)
13
Rightmom couldn't be more WRONG.
Keeping the media honest is a noble cause, and one that bloggers on both sides of the political spectrum, embraced with zeal, and as such it is imperative that we keep our own backyard clean.
Not sure if this came from Mike or Bob - but it is spot on:
“If we’re going to hammer the media for corrections and retractions when they blow a story, we should do the same with ourselves,”
Bob - you did the right thing, and I hope Matt and Redstate step up like you did.
Rightmom --- shame on you!
Posted by: Huntress at April 24, 2007 04:16 PM (Dqxeq)
14
I know it's been a bunch of years but the M16s I carried had the safety/selector switch on the left side of the receiver (as does the civilian version I own)...or have the years fogged my memory? He would appear to be right handed and the 101 patch from a previous tour is on his right shoulder so the picture hasn't been "flipped" (is that even possible with digital cameras and printing these days?).
Side note - what are those red "tubes" on his right chest. Look like shotgun shells to me but ...?
Posted by: Piper 17 at April 24, 2007 06:52 PM (fCKeb)
15
Rightmom, if CY is right, I completely agree with you. My son is in Charlie troop of that Squadron, and I sent him the picture and article from "Blackfive".
I read CY every day and agree with most of his thoughts. But, I am like you, what is the purpose or victory in finger f**king my dreams. It is a harmless gesture that for all intents and purposes brings a cheer to those with blood in this game.
Defiance is only one ingredient that makes up the spirit of the American fighting man. I believe that this soldier is letting everyone at home know that all is well and under control. I sleep better knowing that troopers like him are there.
I don't buy what CY is selling.
Posted by: DickB at April 25, 2007 01:45 AM (MQjIE)
16
I've sent this link to Snopes.com. They are great at tracking down this sort of thing, and seem to play right down the line, politically.
Posted by: Ian at April 25, 2007 01:17 PM (RVKqG)
17
Kudos for your correction, and shame on Redstate! Having read those articles by the AP reporter/photog in question, I cannot imagine that rightmom could have such a cavalier attitude about getting the record straight! Good for you, CY.
Advice to rightmom, go read those articles, then tell CY you're sorry.
Posted by: DagneyT at April 25, 2007 04:26 PM (AAEEI)
18
Well I tried with both hands and when the bird
comes up you still have part of the index
showing...When you use the index they all fold
to the inside from middle to little and can't
be seen...
Posted by: Tincan Sailor at April 25, 2007 05:36 PM (L4HGI)
19
Good job. Thanks for posting the truth.
Posted by: sj at April 25, 2007 10:32 PM (vvodJ)
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April 23, 2007
Facing Wolves
This is perhaps one of the most disturbing aspects of the Virginia Tech massacre I've read thus far (my bold).
Police are still searching for a motive. Cho, the 23-year-old English major who was described as reclusive and extremely shy, left behind a package of videos and letters railing against privilege and wealth, but did not say how he chose his victims...
Those victims apparently did not fight back against Cho's ambush. Massello said he did not recall any injuries suggesting a struggle. Many victims had defensive wounds, indicating they tried to shield themselves from Cho's gunfire, he said.
Massello said Cho hit many of his victims several times.
The media's portrayal of the Virginia Tech massacre has been abysmal and highly inaccurate during the course of the past week. Because of their well-documented shortcomings, I've wanted to avoided commenting on certain aspects of the events of April 16 in Norris Hall at Virginia Tech, where Cho Seung-Hui shot to death 30 of his victims, and wounded 29 more.
During this time period, primarily local media accounts have started to create a patchwork of stories that are helping us piece together an image of how individual students reacted during this tragedy, one that has disturbed several people I've spoken with, both online and in person.
No one could have easily predicted that a student such as Cho would have gone on a murderous rampage, and no one knows how they would respond to an event such as this unless they're faced with a similar situation themselves.
It is because of this that I was concerned when I read John Derbyshire's NRO Blog entry
The Spirit of Self Defense, posted just one day after the massacre, when so few facts were known.
He wrote:
As NRO's designated chickenhawk, let me be the one to ask: Where was the spirit of self-defense here? Setting aside the ludicrous campus ban on licensed conceals, why didn't anyone rush the guy? It's not like this was Rambo, hosing the place down with automatic weapons. He had two handguns for goodness' sake—one of them reportedly a .22.
At the very least, count the shots and jump him reloading or changing hands. Better yet, just jump him. Handguns aren't very accurate, even at close range. I shoot mine all the time at the range, and I still can't hit squat. I doubt this guy was any better than I am. And even if hit, a .22 needs to find something important to do real damage—your chances aren't bad.
Yes, yes, I know it's easy to say these things: but didn't the heroes of Flight 93 teach us anything? As the cliche goes—and like most cliches. It's true—none of us knows what he'd do in a dire situation like that. I hope, however, that if I thought I was going to die anyway, I'd at least take a run at the guy.
I think we can all agree that people react to high stress unexpected situations differently, and that how we response is influenced by our previous training and experiences. I don't think it is reasonable to expect that anyone in the situation at Norris Hall would have any previous training or experience to handle the situation of a heavily-armed student shooting up a classroom building, though oddly enough, there was a student,
Regina Rohde, enrolled at Virgina Tech that was not at Norris Hall who survived the Columbine High School massacre. Even that experience would not have prepared anyone to "take a run at the guy" as Derbyshire suggested. Something else in a person's background or make-up would have to make them act in such a counterintuitive way as to attempt to attack someone with a firearm. I'll note that counterintuitive is not necessarily the same as wrong.
Arguably, it should make us re-examine the basic, emotional "fight or flight" response. Wikipedia describes the reaction to acute stress
thusly:
The fight-or-flight response, also called the acute stress response, was first described by Walter Cannon in 1927. His theory states that animals react to threats with a general discharge of the sympathetic nervous system, priming the animal for fighting or fleeing. This response was later recognized as the first stage of a general adaptation syndrome that regulates stress responses among vertebrates and other organisms.
About.com provides a
more useful definition:
This is the body’s response to perceived threat or danger. During this reaction, certain hormones like adrenalin and cortisol are released, speeding the heart rate, slowing digestion, shunting blood flow to major muscle groups, and changing various other autonomic nervous functions, giving the body a burst of energy and strength. Originally named for its ability to enable us to physically fight or run away when faced with danger, it’s now activated in situations where neither response is appropriate, like in traffic or during a stressful day at work.
While the massacre itself was shocking enough, the anecdotal evidence pieced together showing that many students (rightly) fled, and that at least some of those who couldn't escape simply let themselves be shot (including at least one student who curled into a ball and allowed Cho to shoot him). The corner's comments shows that he found no evidence suggesting wounds consistent with someone attempting to defend themselves when their lives were in mortal jeopardy. This is shocking in its own right.
Obviously, many of the 59 students, faculty and staff shot by Cho had a very limited chance to react, and there were students in those classrooms who were not shot at all only as a matter of chance. Why is it, though, that when the fight or flight response engaged as it undoubtedly was in Norris Hall, that it appears not a single soul did as Derbyshire asked, "take a run at the guy"?
This isn't a question of bravery by any measure, and I don't want anyone to misconstrue it as such. I am honestly curious as to why the "fight" part of the "fight or flight" response apparently never kicked in to any one of the students, faculty, and staff members who could not escape.
When a man is in the process of gunning down your classmates in a ruthless manner and obviously has the same intention of doing the same to you, you are presented with a very short list of options:
- do nothing or attempt to hide (a passive response)
- attempt to block the gunman from entering the classroom (an active response)
- attempt to attack the gunman, if only to save your own life (an active response)
want to take on of the above options, but succumb to shock (a blocked response)
That is far from being any sort of a clinical response and may not be accurate. It is simply a layman's understanding of how someone may react in the very crudest terms to a horrible situation.
In this circumstance, the flight response is by far the best option, and for those who were able to escape before Cho started shooting in their classrooms, it paid off. But I'm not concerned with the actions of those who were able to escape, but with the actions of those who were unable to escape. What of those who were left?
While we do know that some students were successful in barricading doors and prevented Cho from entering (and that one professor and at least one student died attempting to barricade doors). Once Cho was able to enter classrooms, however, not a single person attempted to attack him according to the coroner, even though that might have been their best option for survival. I speak of this not to condemn, but only in an effort to understand
why.
Mark Steyn made an admirable attempt to understand why in
A Culture of Passivity. I'm not sure I agree with it, but the following bears reflecting upon:
it’s deeply damaging to portray fit fully formed adults as children who need to be protected. We should be raising them to understand that there will be moments in life when you need to protect yourself — and, in a “horrible” world, there may come moments when you have to choose between protecting yourself or others. It is a poor reflection on us that, in those first critical seconds where one has to make a decision, only an elderly Holocaust survivor, Professor Librescu, understood instinctively the obligation to act.
At the time Steyn wrote his article, not all of the facts were known. We now know that another student died trying to prevent Cho from entering his classroom and was gunned down, just as we know that several other students kept pressing against the door, even as Cho fired through. These brave men all saved lives attempting to preventing a wolf from entering among the sheep. These men are what you would recognize from Bill Whittle's seminal essay
Tribes as sheepdogs. Whittle borrowed this description from Lt. Col. Dave Grossman's seminar
The Bulletproof Mind as Whittle was writing about the survivors of Hurricane Katrina.
Whittle cited Grossman as stating:
One Vietnam veteran, an old retired colonel, once said this to me: "Most of the people in our society are sheep. They are kind, gentle, productive creatures who can only hurt one another by accident."
This is true. Remember, the murder rate is six per 100,000 per year, and the aggravated assault rate is four per 1,000 per year. What this means is that the vast majority of Americans are not inclined to hurt one another.
Some estimates say that two million Americans are victims of violent crimes every year, a tragic, staggering number, perhaps an all-time record rate of violent crime. But there are almost 300 million total Americans, which means that the odds of being a victim of violent crime is considerably less than one in a hundred on any given year. Furthermore, since many violent crimes are committed by repeat offenders, the actual number of violent citizens is considerably less than two million.
Thus there is a paradox, and we must grasp both ends of the situation: We may well be in the most violent times in history, but violence is still remarkably rare. This is because most citizens are kind, decent people who are not capable of hurting each other, except by accident or under extreme provocation. They are sheep.
I mean nothing negative by calling them sheep. To me it is like the pretty, blue robin's egg. Inside it is soft and gooey but someday it will grow into something wonderful. But the egg cannot survive without its hard blue shell. Police officers, soldiers and other warriors are like that shell, and someday the civilization they protect will grow into something wonderful. For now, though, they need warriors to protect them from the predators.
"Then there are the wolves," the old war veteran said, "and the wolves feed on the sheep without mercy." Do you believe there are wolves out there who will feed on the flock without mercy? You better believe it. There are evil men in this world and they are capable of evil deeds. The moment you forget that or pretend it is not so, you become a sheep. There is no safety in denial.
"Then there are sheepdogs," he went on, "and I'm a sheepdog. I live to protect the flock and confront the wolf." Or, as a sign in one California law enforcement agency put it, "We intimidate those who intimidate others."
If you have no capacity for violence then you are a healthy productive citizen: a sheep. If you have a capacity for violence and no empathy for your fellow citizens, then you have defined an aggressive sociopath--a wolf. But what if you have a capacity for violence, and a deep love for your fellow citizens? Then you are a sheepdog, a warrior, someone who is walking the hero's path. Someone who can walk into the heart of darkness, into the universal human phobia, and walk out unscathed.
He continues:
Let me expand on this old soldier's excellent model of the sheep, wolves, and sheepdogs. We know that the sheep live in denial; that is what makes them sheep. They do not want to believe that there is evil in the world. They can accept the fact that fires can happen, which is why they want fire extinguishers, fire sprinklers, fire alarms and fire exits throughout their kids' schools. But many of them are outraged at the idea of putting an armed police officer in their kid's school. Our children are dozens of times more likely to be killed, and thousands of times more likely to be seriously injured, by school violence than by school fires, but the sheep's only response to the possibility of violence is denial. The idea of someone coming to kill or harm their children is just too hard, so they choose the path of denial.
The sheep generally do not like the sheepdog. He looks a lot like the wolf. He has fangs and the capacity for violence. The difference, though, is that the sheepdog must not, cannot and will not ever harm the sheep. Any sheepdog that intentionally harms the lowliest little lamb will be punished and removed. The world cannot work any other way, at least not in a representative democracy or a republic such as ours.
Still, the sheepdog disturbs the sheep. He is a constant reminder that there are wolves in the land. They would prefer that he didn't tell them where to go, or give them traffic tickets, or stand at the ready in our airports in camouflage fatigues holding an M-16. The sheep would much rather have the sheepdog cash in his fangs, spray paint himself white, and go, "Baa." Until the wolf shows up. Then the entire flock tries desperately to hide behind one lonely sheepdog. As Kipling said in his poem about "Tommy" the British soldier:
While it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that,
an' "Tommy, fall be'ind,"
But it's "Please to walk in front, sir,"
when there's trouble in the wind,
There's trouble in the wind, my boys,
there's trouble in the wind,
O it's "Please to walk in front, sir,"
when there's trouble in the wind.
Understand that there is nothing morally superior about being a sheepdog; it is just what you choose to be. Also understand that a sheepdog is a funny critter: He is always sniffing around out on the perimeter, checking the breeze, barking at things that go bump in the night, and yearning for a righteous battle. That is, the young sheepdogs yearn for a righteous battle. The old sheepdogs are a little older and wiser, but they move to the sound of the guns when needed right along with the young ones.
Whittle continues on his own:
Here is the Grey philosophy I try to live by:
Sometimes, Bad Things Happen. Some things are beyond my control, beyond the control of the smartest and best people we have, even beyond the awesome, subtle and unlimited control of the simpering, sub-human village idiot from Texas.
Hurricanes come. They have come for all of human history, and more are coming. Barbarians also come to steal or destroy what they cannot make themselves, and they, like human tempests, have swept a path of destruction through civilization since before history was written on clay tablets on the banks of the Euphrates.
I am not a wolf. I have never harmed a person in my life. But I am not a sheep, either. I know these forces are out there, and wishing it were not so will not only not make them go away – it will rob me of my chance to kick their ass when they show up.
And further:
It takes courage to fight oncoming storms. Courage.
Courage isn’t free. It is taught, taught by certain tribes who have been around enough and seen enough incoming storms to know what one looks like.
Tribes is an excellent essay, though perhaps imperfect to apply to the students, faculty and staff trapped inside Norris Hall last Monday. That said, I am forced to wonder why not one of those 59 people shot, nor those who were not shot, did not make an attempt to defend at least themselves, if not others. The "extreme provocation" that Grossman noted can make even sheep attack was certainly present in Norris Hall a week ago today, and yet, not one apparently acted upon it.
Have we become as a culture so adverse to the idea of conflict that we will willing surrender our lives and the lives of others to avoid fighting back?
I am trapped, and think perhaps, that we all are.
Have we become so enamored with the idea of conflict avoidance and conflict resolution at all costs, that we have forgotten that at some points, conflict is the only correct response? Do we not need to teach courage, or at least self-preservation, as well?
I can offer no answers. I don't even know if I'm asking the right questions.
I do think, however, that as a society, somebody should find the right questions to ask, and do all we can to get those answers.
If not, we give our futures to the wolves to decide.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
12:53 PM
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1
Excellent analysis, Bob. I added an excerpt and link to my "VTech+7: Did we learn anything?" roundup.
I especially appreciated the Sheepdogs references. The group site I run, "Old War Dogs," was very nearly named "Old Sheepdogs," owing to the Grossman and Whittle pieces; we decided after extended debate that policemen and firemen are "sheepdogs" but not "war dogs" and titled the site appropriately.
I think it's worth noting again that one person in Norris Hall, Mr. Kevin Granata, was a military veteran who ran toward the shooting in a vain attempt to protect his students. Of course since the VTech administrators in their infinite wisdom had declared the campus "gun free" all that got him was killed. I hope they're proud of themselves
Posted by: Bill Faith at April 23, 2007 02:40 PM (n7SaI)
2
Lesson: If you are going to go, better go attacking than running. The fact that many of the victims had 3 shots in them suggests that others had some time to react. We can't blame them but we can learn from them. We don't know enough yet, but you have to wonder if we are training our young people to be good victims.
Posted by: Marquis de Gallifet at April 23, 2007 04:28 PM (f8Ii8)
3
It's an interesting discussion, and one fraught with emotional pitfalls. Why do some people fight back and others don't?
Why did the three passengers rise up to fight Colin Ferguson after shooting up the LIRR commuter train in a move that launched Carolyn Maloney's congressional career in memory of her late husband?
Why did no one rush Cho?
Lack of opportunity? That's a possibility and I've got to believe that some of the survivors are probably wondering whether they could have done more.
Posted by: lawhawk at April 23, 2007 05:18 PM (i4gO8)
4
These are questions that many of us ask, and many of us are afraid will be misinterpreted. I do not have all the facts, but I believe this happened in a relatively short period of time. It was unexpected and happened in a 'safe' zone. Cho was apparently a good shot and had a secondary weapon for protection during reload of his primary. This would allow little oppertunity for a rush. It takes training to rush an firing position when there is no protection from fire. Trained soldiers, prepared for intense battle, froze on the beaches during D-day.
The students were in classrooms. The classrooms offered the students a false sense of protection. The classrooms also offered Cho an element of surprise as no one knew where he was exacdtly or which room he was moving to.
With all that being said, students have the will to fight drilled out of them. We as a society are taught to be pasive and to let others (governtment, police) do the fighting for us. We are a passive-aggresive nation.
Posted by: Mekan at April 23, 2007 05:52 PM (a8Oey)
5
1. If there is nowhere to run and a shooter with an overwhelming supply of ammunition, you have nothing to lose by fighting back.
2. There were two cases where steps were taken against the attacker but they were not direct attacks on him. The first is the case of the old professor. He managed to block entry to the classroom and lost his own life in the process but not a single one of his students lost theirs. He saved the entire class. In the second instance, two boys managed to wedge lab tables against the classroom door barring entry. The killer shot through the door but nobody was injured. The entire class escaped unharmed.
We need to train our kids to react in that situation and fight back when there is no other escape. The attack can begin with thrown objects ... books, lab gear, backpacks, anything to cause the shooter to be unable to take aim while the other converge on the shooter, knock him over and proceed to stomp and kick his face, ribs, and in particular the hand holding the weapon. He isn't going to be pulling any triggers with broken hands and fingers. Even if he does manage to squeeze off a few rounds, they will be unaimed. Wounds will likely be in the feet and legs whereupon a victim can then land hard on their knees on the chest and arms of the shooter.
Seriously, we should teach techniques that don't take a lot of skill. The idea being that yes, some might get hurt or even killed but if you don't act, they could ALL be killed.
Posted by: crosspatch at April 23, 2007 07:01 PM (y2kMG)
6
I am a small man. I take after my mother. And yet it was she, not my father (an infantry Lt. Col.) whole told me how to handle a situation like this; attack, attack, attack, and when you think you're done, attack some more.
We have destroyed our own survival instincts somehow. Europe, from whence most of us are derived, is a prime example. And it IS creeping here.
I know that many ran, and I don't blame them. That no one, cornered and dying, fought, though, is beyond me.
Posted by: Herr Morgenholz at April 23, 2007 08:32 PM (K/lgF)
7
Of course since the VTech administrators in their infinite wisdom had declared the campus "gun free" all that got him was killed. I hope they're proud of themselves.
Again: who the heck ever heard of a college campus that wasn't gun-free? This was all dealt with in another thread; this isn't the time to pile on these guys about that issue. Others, maybe, but not this one. This mock surprise that weapons weren't allowed on campus limits the credibility of other, actual, complaints that could be made.
Posted by: Doc Washboard at April 23, 2007 09:04 PM (/4BK4)
8
I heard Grossman speak once. He has his act together.
Posted by: brando at April 23, 2007 10:25 PM (uZ35s)
9
I find it amazing that the head of the university was proud of the fact that even his police force was gun free. He does not seem to realise that at some stage someone has to be in a position to protect the university population.
Posted by: davod at April 24, 2007 02:47 AM (8l/EC)
10
First, they weren't kids, they were young men and women, same age as those serving in Iraq.
Second, they probably had no training. Even in boot camp a lot of Americans think we tear down and brainwash recruits (I was an RDC so I drilled them), that wasn't true. We tried to instill in them Discipline, Honor, Courage and Commitment by playing on Teamwork with winners AND losers. Schools now don't really do that. Everybody is a winner no matter how hard or little you try. I don't know if that had any effect on our youth but without the bitter taste of defeat, how do you learn to strive harder? Take risks? Learn new ways to win?
Cho seems to have lost his whole life in his mind, tired of being a loser, he wanted others to share his pain.
The U.S. has been leaning towards a "Put your head in the sand" mentality. Terrorists won't quit but congressmen want to. Criminals don't do the time they deserve because it would be too harsh. Motor vehicles kill more than the Iraq war did but they won't hire new traffic police or enact stiffer laws/punishments because it 'Inconviences' too many people. (I was only doing 8 over, why did you pull me over?) It's politically incorrect to repeat exact quotes in the news when it comes to Race related items, even though it's a Quote because it may offend someone else.
The more sensitivity and political correctness go up, the more the U.S. toughness and resolve go down, inversely proportional.
Posted by: Retired Navy at April 24, 2007 05:12 AM (y67bA)
11
"Why did the three passengers rise up to fight Colin Ferguson after shooting up the LIRR commuter train in a move that launched Carolyn Maloney's congressional career in memory of her late husband?"
Most Americans intenionally try to stay oblivous to what is going on around them, hoping that if anything goes wrong, it will be somebody's elses problems. New Yorkers are different. New Yorkers keep a situational awareness around them, knowing that if they let their guard down, bad things might happen. When an average person is walking down the street, that's all he is doing. When a New Yorker walks down the street, he is keeping 360 degrees of awareness and constantly risk assessing what is going on. Which street should I go down, the dark alley with no people, or the brightly lit one with lots of pedestrians and the occasional police foot patrol? Most people don't have to make that decision every moment of every day of their life, but New Yorkers are different.
"I'm a New Yorker, fear's my life."
-Rent
Posted by: BohicaTwentyTwo at April 24, 2007 07:40 AM (oC8nQ)
12
Enxcellent point Retired Navy. I believe that it all stems from an over-feminization of the American male. When a boy acts like a boy, shove Ritalin down his throat. I also believe this has alot to do with the leftward turn this country has taken recently.
Posted by: Justin at April 24, 2007 08:04 AM (NiTuu)
13
I have surfed the web looking at the various comments on this situation. I find it fascinating to see the ignorance of guns, lack of ability to understand basic personal defense, and the very passive attitude of our society. It likely stems from the fact that our society is very compartmentalized. Maybe even to say that after 50 years of effort we are still segregated. The reason for the analogy is that the average white person, if he stays in his given area of town, is not going to see crime or violence. This markedly reduces the reaction time and anticipation of evil events.
On the other hand, in the black community especially, violence is rampant. If you substract black crime from stats, our crime rate is less than that of Europe. In most cities, blacks do no mingle with whites. I of course am not talking about the 10 to 20% of blacks that have similar employment or housing as their white counterparts, but the vast majority that are out of sight and out of mind of the white culture.
This produces a lingering subculture of violence. That has a potential to enter into the lives of those who are not inclined in that direction and thus are sheep. In this case it was not a black but someone that was psycho and drawn to the culture of violence depected in films and elsewhere to empower him. He then acted out his fantasy as a final suicide wish to what he saw as glory.
So what is the point of this diatride? We think we are in a nonviolent sector of our society, but the spectrum of violence can enter into our lives at any moment. We should prepare ourselves for this and teach our children how to handle it. I received my education in my local church in the 60's and applied the learned techniques when I lived in New Orleans (one of the most dangerous places on earth). I teach my children to expect this violence and be ready for it as it will enter their lives at some point. I tell them they are living in a false world in their schools and home as this is not the way the majority of the world lives.
Nothing could have stopped this man from acting out his fantasy. But the government provided the opportunity for it to be worse than it had to be. Limiting guns to law abiding citizens only invites terror to enter their lives at some point. People leave me alone as they know or suspect that I keep weapons and avoid encounters that might precipitate their use. In the 60's most people had a gun at college. This reduced violence, it did not accelerate it.
In our society we must address the culture of violence in the black community. This would go a long way to helping instead of outlawing video games and restricting guns to the average person.
If a college is gun free, then the administration should be responsible for any act of violence. In this case they should accept the fact they helped to cause the deaths of these young people.
Mental illness needs to be addressed. Currently we ignor it. In the 50's and 60's this man would have been in an institution. But due to the isolation of our thinkers and planners from real life, we have done away with those instruments that protect the average individual.
Finally, cops stink and are vastly over rated. In situaions like this that I have witnessed, they caused as much injury and death to the innocent as the mad man. That they did not do so this time is a miracle. They certainly did nothing to stop him. I don't know what the answer is to this situation other than to take off the blinders and say these people really don't know how to handle security. They are certainly good at roughing up and degrading the innocent as they did at VT.
Posted by: David Caskey at April 24, 2007 09:30 AM (G5i3t)
14
Obviously Cho planned out his attack most carefully over a lengthy period of time. Note that he bought at least one of the guns last month. During this planning I'm sure he came to the realization that those most likely to fight back would be the men in each class. Hence, you quickly enter a classroom and shoot the men first.
It doesn't matter whether you kill them outright or simply disable them. They are put out of commission for the time being. Later, finish them off. Some victims were shot three times.
I've heard it said by some that a wound from a .22 cal. is not so bad. Tell that to the 3,000 pound bulls that .22 cal. shorts killed in the packing house where I used to inspect meat. One bull, one shot. Admittedly, well aimed at the base of the skull by a shooter above and slightly behind the bull. But, still ... It always amazed me that such a tiny pellet could bring down such a powerful animal.
Posted by: jim at April 24, 2007 01:06 PM (SJrZP)
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RIP: Congresswoman Juanita Millender-McDonald
Our thoughts and prayers go out this morning to the family, friends, and collegues of California Congresswoman Juanita Millender-McDonald, who lost her battle with cancer yesterday.
WaPo has the story.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
08:01 AM
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What we have witnessed here is the result of years of "Zero Tolerance" in our schools. School employees at all levels continually instruct (brainwash)our children that they are not allowed to defend themselves under any circumstance. When attacked they are to act like sheep. They should find an adult; run to the office; don't strike back because violence never solved anything. My son served a two day suspension in high school for putting a hurting on a bully who probably did not expect to meet resistance in the form of a beating. The principal originally wanted him to serve a five day suspension because of "zero tolerance". However, after pointing out a few legal facts to him, and pointing out that I will not allow my son to take a beating for some socialist pipe dream, it became a two day suspension. How sad, but when I was a kid the bully would have been the only one in trouble. By the way, the bully never bothered my son again and he served a five day suspension.
Posted by: RetSgt at April 23, 2007 01:27 PM (psL7l)
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Is a Mandatory Waiting Period a Good Idea?
From falsely reporting (ansd still refusing to correct) a claim that the expiration of the 1994 Crime Bill permitted the sale of high capacity and extended magazines, to claims that he purchased a pistol and ammunition online to citing incompetent experts, the "professional" media has consistantly made inaccurate, unsupported, and erroneous claims about the firearms, magazines, ammunition and firearms laws surrounding the Virginia Tech massacre committed one week ago today.
Should we perhaps consider a mandatory waiting period on the media's reporting of gun crimes... or would we best be served by making them pass a basic background and competence check before allowing them to write?
The pen is mightier than the sword, after all, so it is reasonable to make sure that those who use them are capable of using them responsibly.
Update: How about this for a new bumper sticker: "
Michael Isikoff's keyboard has killed more people than Ted Kennedy's car, or my guns."
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
07:51 AM
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I have purchessed a few guns in California when
I lived there,Ruger super Blackhawk 44 mag,
Rem 870 12 ga mag,Sako 7mm rem mag,Ruger 10/22
Browning 22 Auto Pistol to name a few.All under
the Mandatory 14 day waiting period.The fact I had to wait 14 days was no big deal. I tried to
pick up the 10/22 the night before the 14th day
it was a no go.The dealer said come back in the morning,if thats not good enough you can have your money back...
Posted by: Jack Sparrow at April 23, 2007 09:20 AM (L4HGI)
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I just added a link to my "VTech+7: Did we learn anything?" roundup. Maybe what we really need is licenses for reporters, to be issued only after they pass a basic intelligence test.
Posted by: Bill Faith at April 23, 2007 02:45 PM (n7SaI)
3
Posted by Bill Faith at April 23, 2007 02:45 PM
If the ones there had to do it first, there wouldn't be many left. Even if it was held at a 6th grade level.
Posted by: Retired Navy at April 24, 2007 05:15 AM (y67bA)
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"... Should we perhaps consider a mandatory waiting period on the media's reporting of gun crimes... or would we best be served by making them pass a basic background and competence check before allowing them to write? ..."
Those ARE two "reasonable" and "sensible" requirements that many suggest for firearm ownership, so I don't see how they could possibly object.
(Though I suspect the "competence check" requirement is already met by journalism schooling and hiring protocols ... Not very successfully, but met nonetheless.)
Posted by: DoorHold at April 24, 2007 10:54 AM (yc7wV)
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I think there should be a mandatory waiting period on pistol purchases 9mm and under.
"Are you sure you want that? We have some nice 1911 .45s back in the safe, and a special on .44 Magnum wheelguns."
Posted by: cirby at April 24, 2007 11:27 AM (ZMgaW)
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I'm just a Midwestern Farm boy, but I now live in Kahleefornia, I bought two long guns last month to hunt and take the girls target shooting.
You know, They have the serial numbers and my information now not just in the Federal Database but in the State of California Department of Justice Transactional database controlled by a state populated ongoing with some of the most irresponsible self serving politicians this side of Paris, Beijing, Moscow and San Francisco.
They know exactly what every gun owner has and where to come and get them when they're ready.
Posted by: Econ-Scott at April 24, 2007 02:28 PM (jFHb3)
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Two excellent, responsible, moderate, and, heavens knows, sensible suggestions for preventing the sort of poisonous, irresponsible reporting that causes violences and fascist repression.
But why stop with these?
1) Sensible news control measures should be applied to all major stories, not just to stories involving gun crime. For example, had such restrictions been in place at the time of the Pearl Harbor incident, and no news about the incident could have been reported for 48 hours, December 7 would still have been a day that would live in infamy, we would still have ended up being at war with Japan, and the casualty report would have been a lot more accurate.
2) Reporters should be required to keep locks on their computers when they're not in use if children -- anyone under the age of, oh say 35 for these purposes -- are present. We all know what happens when over-testoseroned, not to mention over-estongenated, juveniles get anywhere near a keyboard. Mandatory locks would prevent such tragedies.
3) There should also be a sharp limit on the number of news stories a reporter is allowed to write each month -- say one. Reporters are always whining about how overworked they are and how the constant press of deadlines causes them to make mistakes. Much of the erroneous reporting about Virginia Tech would not have occurred if reporters were not rushing stories into print at the rate of three or four a day -- day after day after day. Besides, it would create jobs for about 30 times as many ink-stained scribblers as there are now. The need for this measure should be self-evident.
4) And, needless to say, we should ban "assault computers," which have as much power as a 1990 mainframe computer and can allow deranged psychopath in a newsroom with a website to start a riot, a witchhunt, a jihad, or a revolution, to way nothing to stalking innocent people for fun and profit. Such machines have no legitimate use in journalism. They are only useful for someone playing games.
Posted by: pauldanish at April 24, 2007 03:03 PM (/Ic/p)
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April 20, 2007
An Axis of Embarrassment: Saddam's WMD Bunkers Found?
Via Lucianne, just another crazed conspiracy theorist:
Mr Gaubatz verbally told the Iraq Study Group (ISG) of his findings, and asked them to come with heavy equipment to breach the concrete of the bunkers and uncover their sealed contents. But to his consternation, the ISG told him they didn’t have the manpower or equipment to do it and that it would be 'unsafe' to try.
'The problem was that the ISG were concentrating their efforts in looking for WMD in northern Iraq and this was in the south,' says Mr Gaubatz. 'They were just swept up by reports of WMD in so many different locations. But we told them that if they didn't excavate these sites, others would.'
That, he says, is precisely what happened. He subsequently learnt from Iraqi, CIA and British intelligence that the WMD buried in the four sites were excavated by Iraqis and Syrians, with help from the Russians, and moved to Syria. The location in Syria of this material, he says, is also known to these intelligence agencies. The worst-case scenario has now come about. Saddam’s nuclear, biological and chemical material is in the hands of a rogue terrorist state — and one with close links to Iran.
When Mr Gaubatz returned to the US, he tried to bring all this to light. Two congressmen, Peter Hoekstra, chairman of the House Intelligence Committee, and Curt Weldon, were keen to follow up his account. To his horror, however, when they tried to access his classified intelligence reports, they were told that all 60 of them — which, in the routine way, he had sent in 2003 to the computer clearing-house at a US airbase in Saudi Arabia — had mysteriously gone missing. These written reports had never even been seen by the ISG.
One theory is that they were inadvertently destroyed when the computer's database was accidentally erased in the subsequent US evacuation of the airbase. Mr Gaubatz, however, suspects dirty work at the crossroads. It is unlikely, he says, that no copies were made of his intelligence. And he says that all attempts by Messrs Hoekstra and Weldon to extract information from the Defence Department and CIA have been relentlessly stonewalled.
In 2005, the CIA held a belated inquiry into the disappearance of this intelligence. Only then did its agents visit the sites — to report that they had indeed been looted.
Hoekstra, the CIA, and now this nut Gaubatz... who is he, anyway?
The problem the US authorities have is that they can't dismiss Mr Gaubatz as a rogue agent — because they have repeatedly decorated him for his work in the field. In 2003, he received awards for his 'courage and resolve in saving lives and being critical for information flow'. In 2001, he was decorated for being the 'lead agent in a classified investigation, arguably the most sensitive counter-intelligence investigation currently in the entire Department of Defence' and because his 'reports were such high quality, many were published in the Air Force's daily threat product for senior USAF leaders or re-transmitted at the national level to all security agencies in US government'.
What a loon. No credibility at all.
And he poses an interesting delimma, if correct:
The Republicans won't touch this because it would reveal the incompetence of the Bush administration in failing to neutralise the danger of Iraqi WMD. The Democrats won't touch it because it would show President Bush was right to invade Iraq in the first place. It is an axis of embarrassment.
Quite true.
Should this Gaubatz guy, ISG and DIA supervisor
Ray Robinson and other decorated "nutters" be correct, then Dubya is shown to be even more incompetent than both Democrats and Republicans have ever dared fear, and yet, Democrats couldn't call him on it, because they would have to admit he was right to topple Saddam in the first place, and they might have to back up that fact by confronting Syria... probably with "important action alerts."
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
01:54 PM
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I don't understand the comments between the quotations. If you are genuinely trying to make fun of the proposition that Saddam had WMDs and moved them to Syria in the run up to the invasion, you are very badly mistaken. Iraqi Air Force General Georges Sada has said precisely that. Translated Saddam government documents indicate the same. Also, Saddam did have and used one form of WMD, nerve gas, against the Kurds, killing thousands, and Saddam intended to get more WMDs once he was clear of U.N. supervision, which he was attempting to do through the Oil-For-Food scandal. But for the left wing's constant carping that WMDs were not found, everyone would be assuming, as they should, that Saddam had WMDs and secreted them somewhere before the invasion. Syria is the most likely choice.
Posted by: Phil Byler at April 20, 2007 06:55 PM (qthJd)
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Phil Byler,
But for the left wing's constant carping that WMDs were not found
It's "carping" when one complains about the government spending 3,500 soldiers and half a trillion dollars on lies? You are a rare breed.
Posted by: Lex Steele at April 20, 2007 11:58 PM (/yN81)
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A liar talking about lies?
Awesome.
Posted by: brando at April 21, 2007 12:59 AM (uZ35s)
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brando:
Do you intend to substantiate that, or was it cowardly sniping?
Posted by: Lex Steele at April 21, 2007 01:27 AM (/yN81)
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Confederate Yankee, I would concede that you're right on many accounts about the Second Amendment, and that during the 18th century, such a right did ensure the citizens' "capability to take [the US] back by force from a corrupt government, overthrowing it if necessary."
However, the United States Military, if at some point turned against its own citizens, would hardly find challenges while possessing infantry fighting vehicles, Apache helicopters, biological weapons, or nuclear weapons. The US military (currently operating on $419.3 Bil.) would overwhelm such a militia, easily. This was not the case back when the Second Amendment was being considered. How does this play within your argument and does this pose an interesting question to not only the topic stated but to the dangers of an overwhelming military budget more generally?
Posted by: Joel at April 21, 2007 03:33 AM (Zz+O+)
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My apologies, the comment I gave above was intended for the, "Temporary Safety" post.
Posted by: Joel at April 21, 2007 03:37 AM (Zz+O+)
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"It's "carping" when one complains about the government spending 3,500 soldiers and half a trillion dollars on lies? You are a rare breed."
Lies that the majority of Democrats voted for? Lies that the majority of world leaders and intelligence agencies believed in?
Anyhow, there were many other reasons to depose Saddam, as laid out in the 2003 SOTU. I know lefties have an issue reading anything that might teach them something other then their narrow dogmatic view as put out by MoveOn and Kos, but give it a try, Lefties.
Posted by: William Teach at April 21, 2007 06:30 AM (doAuV)
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The US military (currently operating on $419.3 Bil.) would overwhelm such a militia, easily.
There are more weapons available to the general populace than firearms/explosives. 5 minutes of thought might suggest a few to you...presuming you have enough neurons firing to be capable of thought.
Posted by: Purple Avenger at April 21, 2007 09:42 AM (kr/gV)
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William Teach:
The
Dem congressmen voting for it doesn't make it right. Anyway, the reason they did vote for it was that they were scared by this administration's repeated lies. Look at the Downing Street Memo. Look at how they promoted the Niger forgeries, and attacked Joe Wilson for doubting the Niger connection. Look at the other main source of intelligence your boys used, a known lunatic named Screwball. Look at how the inspectors found nothing but Bush pulled them anyway.
there were many other reasons to depose Saddam, as laid out in the 2003 SOTU.
If you think this war was a good idea you're raving. Retired General McPeak just said we couldn't win now if we had a million soldiers.
You're most likely going to go to your grave thinking that the Dems ruined your perfect war, when Bush received every single thing he requested for years. Iraq is steadily more of a mess and you dead enders complain that the Dems are spoiling it. What a a whining loser you are.
Posted by: Lex Steele at April 21, 2007 09:52 AM (/yN81)
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Do you think the war could be won if half of the enemy were screaming "We need to pull out now!!" or "The jihad isn't worth fighting!!" or maybe "Impeach Osama Bin Laden!!".
I think all you Libs are whining pussies
You are all class.
It's your side that's whining. "You're not supporting the troops! You're not supporting the troops!" The troops want to come home. A Zogby polled showed that "just one in five troops want to heed Bush call to stay 'as long as they are needed'. SecDef Gates just told Maliki that the "clock is ticking". You and Bush are dead enders. Nobody else wants an open ended commitment. Our troops are trained for combat, not policing.
The Iraqis want us to leave, our troops want to leave. You've got nothing except your irrational love of military force. You're an anchor to your country and a loser.
Posted by: Lex Steele at April 21, 2007 01:27 PM (/yN81)
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The Iraqis want us to leave
Which of course the Anbar sheiks just formed a party that has as one of its goals to "to promote a better image of American-led forces "to the Iraqis here."
Posted by: Purple Avenger at April 21, 2007 03:27 PM (kr/gV)
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Cmon Lex, we know you guys are the whiners, you just dont want to admit it. Nobody wants an open ended commitment. If the war truely was lost, then Id say bring them home. Do you think the troops in WW2 wanted to stay on a shitty piece of rock for a year and watch all their buddies die? I dont think so. Im pretty sure no soldier likes war. My friends who are in Iraq think they should stay, until they win, or things go to complete shit. Do they like being there? Hell no!
Id like you to answwer my question I asked previously.
Do you think the war could be won if half the enemy were screaming "We need to pull out now!!" or "The jihad isn't worth fighting!!" or maybe "Impeach Osama Bin Laden!!"?
I mean seriously I just want know what you think. My opinion is that when people scream like that, it makes you look weak to the enemy. And, more impotantly, it scares away potential allies. Please explain to me that im wrong.
Posted by: Justin at April 21, 2007 04:42 PM (NiTuu)
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HAH! I just saw a Dem in congress call a handgun a Weapon of Mass Distruction. Aparently invading Iraq was justified.
Posted by: Justin at April 21, 2007 05:08 PM (NiTuu)
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Maybe that explains trips by top Democrats to Syria.
Posted by: crosspatch at April 21, 2007 06:58 PM (b2S+L)
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Dem congressmen voting for it doesn't make it right. Anyway, the reason they did vote for it was that they were scared by this administration's repeated lies.
What a joke. So LEx, are you really trying to tell us that all the speeches by the dems during the Clinton administration were due to lies from the Bush administration? Are you trying to tell us that Operation Desert Fox was a Bush administration operation? Do you really want us to believe that the problems with the Jihadis started when Bush took office? What are you smoking dude?
BTW - What's even funnier about the statement/sentiment I quoted at the top is this. You keep calling Bush stupid/incompetent. But by your reasoning, he was smart enough to outwit the Dimmie Brain Trust. That means, by your own admission, Bush is smarter than all of the DemoNcrats that voted for AUMF. Wow. Pretty stupid!
But - that's from someone like you Lex, that thinks that Hillary, and Howie "AAAAIIIIIYEEEEE" Dean are actually smart. The Dimmie brain trust at work. LOL.
Posted by: Specter at April 21, 2007 10:01 PM (ybfXM)
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Nobody wants an open ended commitment
Wrong. Bush has said this time and time again.
Im pretty sure no soldier likes war.
First of all, that's just wrong. Some men acquire a taste for killing other men, as Ernest Hemingway said.
If the troops want to come home, which you seem to allow, then how can we be supporting them by keeping them there for some indeterminate period?
Do you think the war could be won if half the enemy were screaming "We need to pull out now!!" or "The jihad isn't worth fighting!!" or maybe "Impeach Osama Bin Laden!!"?
You're conflating the war against jihad with the war in Iraq. Iraq was a secular nation under Saddam and had little to do with jihad. Al Qaeda is a Sunni group, whereas Iraq is mostly Shia. Bin Laden is a pious Sunni, whereas Saddam was a plain despot. As a result they naturally distrusted each other.
So what do you mean the war against jihad that we should be fighting, or the war against Iraq?
Posted by: Lex Steele at April 21, 2007 10:05 PM (/yN81)
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They are the same thing Idyut. What - you think the jihadists have a specific country they hang out in? Learn a little from history.
Posted by: Specter at April 21, 2007 10:10 PM (ybfXM)
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Lex, your telling me there are no jihadists in Iraq? I know that doesnt fit your views but cmon man, open your eyes. You still didn't answer my question. I guess your answer must not fit too well with your insistance that Liberal whining has nothing to do with hurting our boys over there.
Posted by: Justin at April 21, 2007 11:04 PM (NiTuu)
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Dem congressmen voting for it doesn't make it right. Anyway, the reason they did vote for it was that they were scared by this administration's repeated lies.
Cmon Lex, lets go back a few years and see what a few of your buddies were saying:
"I come to this debate, Mr. Speaker, as one at the end of 10 years in office on the Permanent Select Committee on Intelligence, where stopping the proliferation of weapons of mass destruction was one of my top priorities. I applaud the President on focusing on this issue and on taking the lead to disarm Saddam Hussein. ... Others have talked about this threat that is posed by Saddam Hussein. Yes, he has chemical weapons, he has biological weapons, he is trying to get nuclear weapons."
Congresswoman Nancy Pelosi
"In the next century, the community of nations may see more and more the very kind of threat Iraq poses now -- a rogue state with weapons of mass destruction ready to use them or provide them to terrorists, drug traffickers or organized criminals who travel the world among us unnoticed.
If we fail to respond today, Saddam and all those who would follow in his footsteps will be emboldened tomorrow by the knowledge that they can act with impunity, even in the face of a clear message from the United Nations Security Council and clear evidence of a weapons of mass destruction program."
President Bill Clinton 1998
Wow clear evidence, and even before Bush was elected! Holy crap he was "scaring" Dems even before he got elected. Now thats amazing.
"People can quarrel with whether we should have more troops in Afghanistan or internationalize Iraq or whatever, but it is incontestable that on the day I left office, there were unaccounted for stocks of biological and chemical weapons."
Clinton again 2003
"We stopped the fighting [in 1991] on an agreement that Iraq would take steps to assure the world that it would not engage in further aggression and that it would destroy its weapons of mass destruction. It has refused to take those steps. That refusal constitutes a breach of the armistice which renders it void and justifies resumption of the armed conflict."
No way that was said by Harry Reid 2002
Man, kinda looks to me that this was a justified war. Looks like the Dems are criminalizing Bush for doing what they though was right. Got anything to add Lexy boy?
Posted by: Justin at April 21, 2007 11:13 PM (NiTuu)
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My last post pretty much affirms that Libs are pussies.
Oh I got a few more too
"Without question, we need to disarm Saddam Hussein. He is a brutal, murderous dictator, leading an oppressive regime. We all know the litany of his offenses. He presents a particularly grievous threat because he is so consistently prone to miscalculation. He miscalculated an eight-year war with Iran. He miscalculated the invasion of Kuwait. He miscalculated America's response to that act of naked aggression. He miscalculated the result of setting oil rigs on fire. He miscalculated the impact of sending scuds into Israel and trying to assassinate an American President. He miscalculated his own military strength. He miscalculated the Arab world's response to his misconduct. And now he is miscalculating America's response to his continued deceit and his consistent grasp for weapons of mass destruction. That is why the world, through the United Nations Security Council, has spoken with one voice, demanding that Iraq disclose its weapons programs and disarm.
So the threat of Saddam Hussein with weapons of mass destruction is real, but it is not new. It has been with us since the end of the Persian Gulf War.
In U.N. Security Council Resolution 1441, the United Nations has now affirmed that Saddam Hussein must disarm or face the most serious consequences. Let me make it clear that the burden is resoundingly on Saddam Hussein to live up to the ceasefire agreement he signed and make clear to the world how he disposed of weapons he previously admitted to possessing."
John Kerry
"Imagine the consequences if Saddam fails to comply and we fail to act. Saddam will be emboldened, believing the international community has lost its will. He will rebuild his arsenal of weapons of mass destruction. And some day, some way, I am certain, he will use that arsenal again, as he has ten times since 1983."
Sandy Berger 1998
"No one has done what Saddam Hussein has done, or is thinking of doing. He is producing weapons of mass destruction, and he is qualitatively and quantitatively different from other dictators."
Mad Albright 1998
What did Saddamn do with those weapons between Clinton and Bush? He threw them away? Sarindar maybe?
Posted by: Justin at April 21, 2007 11:20 PM (NiTuu)
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Harry Reid's comment put every Iraqi and American death in Iraq squarely on his and the Dem's sodiers.
Someone somewhere will start tallying his toll and display it publicly.
Posted by: CoRev at April 22, 2007 08:26 AM (0U8Ob)
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Sorry, should have been shoulders!
Posted by: CoRev at April 22, 2007 08:28 AM (0U8Ob)
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Specter:
So LEx, are you really trying to tell us that all the speeches by the dems during the Clinton administration were due to lies from the Bush administration? Are you trying to tell us that Operation Desert Fox was a Bush administration operation? Do you really want us to believe that the problems with the Jihadis started when Bush took office?
I'm not saying any of those things.
BTW - What's even funnier about the statement/sentiment I quoted at the top is this. You keep calling Bush stupid/incompetent. But by your reasoning, he was smart enough to outwit the Dimmie Brain Trust. That means, by your own admission, Bush is smarter than all of the DemoNcrats that voted for AUMF. Wow. Pretty stupid!
I won't defend the Dems in congress. They screwed up when they voted for war. However I don't agree that Bush outsmarted them. He rode roughshod over them is more like it.
Posted by: Lex Steele at April 22, 2007 10:28 AM (/yN81)
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Specter:
They are the same thing Idyut. What - you think the jihadists have a specific country they hang out in?
I understand averages and use them correctly, so if I'm an idiot then you have a most severe handicap.
Iraq wasn't anywhere near the top of the list for jihad when we invaded. 11 of the 19 911 hijackers were Saudis. There are definitely jihad training camps in Pakistan and Afghanistan. Iraq was a secular nation under Saddam. Sure there are jihadists there now, only because our troops are sitting ducks for them.
Be glad of the good news: America is mired in the swamps of the Tigris and Euphrates. Bush is, through Iraq and its oil, easy prey. Here is he now, thank God, in an embarassing situation and here is America today being ruined before the eyes of the whole world.
--Osama bin Laden, video message broadcast October 18, 2003
Nice job, guys. Iraq is such a ringing success that you want to attack Iran now too.
Posted by: Lex Steele at April 22, 2007 02:02 PM (/yN81)
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Justin,
Lex, your telling me there are no jihadists in Iraq?
Sure there are now.
You still didn't answer my question.
Your question doesn't make any sense as I pointed out. You are grossly uninformed about the situation in Iraq.
Liberal whining has nothing to do with hurting our boys over there.
Our boys want to come home. 77% of those polled say they want to come home within a year. Your idea of supporting them is making them stay. Look at Walter Reid. Look at the new deployment time of 15 months instead of 12. You're not supporting the troops, you're getting them killed on a babysitting mission that you're too proud to admit is an abject failure. You're the whiner, "support the troops, support the troops." Why don't you go help out, yellowbelly? Or maybe you're part of the 101st Fighting Keyboarders? Coward.
Posted by: Lex Steele at April 22, 2007 02:08 PM (/yN81)
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Justin,
"Yes, he has chemical weapons, he has biological weapons, he is trying to get nuclear weapons."
I already told you that I take exception to the Dem congressmen voting to authorize the Iraq war. Can't you understand that? I'm not a partisan Democrat, I'm a registered independent. So I agree that some of the quotes you gave indict the Dems. The war was still wrong.
How did she get those opinions though? It's because Bush lied and lied and lied. Everybody knows it now except you dead enders.
Posted by: Lex Steele at April 22, 2007 02:13 PM (/yN81)
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Lex and David (I know he's not active on this thread) are both always quoting in a historical context. Why don't you come up with some alternatives strategies? Let us view and discuss your critical thinking.
You are always whining about what has happened. let's talk about your goals and their possible/probably impacts. Oh, don't forget to start talking about the poor chilruns in Darfur. We just must protect dem poor chilruns over there.
Posted by: CoRev at April 22, 2007 02:53 PM (0U8Ob)
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Oh, don't forget to start talking about the poor chilruns in Darfur. We just must protect dem poor chilruns over there.
You're a real prince, aren't you?
You're whining that we keep pointing out what a complete failure this administration has been.
Posted by: Lex Steele at April 22, 2007 03:26 PM (40R2V)
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Bush lied, about what? You really need to get yourself another storyline. You are boring.
Posted by: davod at April 22, 2007 03:53 PM (8l/EC)
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So much for the critical thinking. Try again, next thread. You are a bust on this one. Come to think of it, you have consistently been a bust. Same message every day/thread. Davod is correct, you are boring.
Posted by: CoRev at April 22, 2007 03:57 PM (0U8Ob)
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Osama bin Laden, video message broadcast October 18, 2003
Lord HawHaw and Tokyo Rose said similar things. I'm guessing you'd have been on their side too.
Posted by: Purple Avenger at April 22, 2007 05:26 PM (kr/gV)
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Davod, CoRev, Purple Avenger:
If you had any arguments you wouldn't need to resort to insulting me, so I consider the debate over.
How does it feel to watch your countrymen die in your perfect war? You're brave all right when someone else is doing the fighting. Your are yellow bellies and cowards.
Read here about your new hero Gaubatz.
Posted by: Lex Steele at April 22, 2007 07:33 PM (40R2V)
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Steele, how can you deny history? It is said there are not so stupid as those who will not learn. From what I read of your posts, you belong in that catagory. Demonstrate where Bush runs roughshod over anything except our enemies. Notice during the Clinton administration and their dealing with terrorism as a policing problem, how many times we were struck, both here and abroad. Now reflect if you can, on the Bush adminsitration. Notice any difference? Probably not. Finding bunkers locked does not mean they were filled at the time of the invasion. Trucks took those itmes to Syria. They will reappear when Syria loses the next war to Israel.
Posted by: Zelsdorf Ragshaft III at April 22, 2007 07:49 PM (VGAdU)
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But Lex Idyut,
You said:
Dem congressmen voting for it doesn't make it right. Anyway, the reason they did vote for it was that they were scared by this administration's repeated lies.
Don't try to backpedal now. You said it. So, my question, which you did not answer, was completely logical. How do you explain all of the Dimmies speeches about Hussein before Bush took office? How do you explain the Clinton admin attack - Operation Desert Storm? That was all before Bush could have "lied" (your inept words) to the Dimmies. Right? So how do you explain that before they voted for the war - in fact for years before - the Dimmie Brain Trust believed that Hussein had WMD? You can't and you know it. But you see, rather than analyze things from a realistic point of view, you want to keep your Dimmie Spectacles on and blame everything on Bush. Sorry that you have no brain other than what you've been fed from KOS and DU.
Posted by: Specter at April 22, 2007 08:26 PM (ybfXM)
35
Lex, you have been thoroughly busted. The critical thinking comment was meant as a challenge to see if you had anything other the Dimmie talking points. You did not!
Posted by: CoRev at April 22, 2007 09:47 PM (0U8Ob)
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Zelsdorf: Demonstrate where Bush runs roughshod over anything except our enemies.
You're ill informed. During Bush's first term he bulldozed whatever he wanted past the Democrats. There's no debating this.
Specter: You said: "Dem congressmen voting for it doesn't make it right. Anyway, the reason they did vote for it was that they were scared by this administration's repeated lies." Don't try to backpedal now.
It is oh so tedious speaking with you, that's why I usually ignore you. I agree with the statement 100%, and at no point did I backpedal from it.
How do you explain all of the Dimmies speeches about Hussein before Bush took office?
That's easy. Saddam was a source of instability in the region and a ruthless dictator. He clearly pursued WMD before the first gulf war. So what's your point?
How do you explain the Clinton admin attack - Operation Desert Storm?
First, Operation Desert Storm was initiated by Bush 41. It was due to Saddam invading Kuwait, not terrorism. I could go on and on. You may be the biggest clown I have ever run across. You can't understand simple arithmetic. I don't have any more time for you.
Posted by: Lex Steele at April 22, 2007 11:42 PM (40R2V)
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CoRev: lots of substance in that last post. Why don't you make fun of the Somalians some more? Your mean, small minded, ugly little man act is amusing to us educated folks.
Time to enlist, fellas. The surge can't miss, am I right? Go give it that extra little push.
Posted by: Lex Steele at April 22, 2007 11:50 PM (40R2V)
38
Lex, You admit there are jihadists in Iraq. Ignoring all the BS that led up to this war, do you think we should just let them have Iraq? Happy birthday Osama! Merry Ramadan Ahmadinijad! A country of your own, filled with oil.
Don't you think it alot of lives could have been saved if we took out Hitler in the 30's? Yes. Saddamn Hussein was a modern day Hitler. We took him out. Now we are trying to build a country from scratch. We did in Japan. It wasnt easy. Now Japan is one of the greatest economic powers in the entire world. You want to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory. We are VERY close to stabilizing Iraq. The civil war is winding down as the jihad from the terrorists is gearing up. People who wanted to kill us a year ago are realizing there better off with America than Osama. The jihadists kill women and children. We don't. Give the surge a chance and quit your friggin WHINING. We will know if it is working by the fall. When the terrorists bomb something the Dems scream "its not working". Dont you think they are going to try and fight back?
The Libs are pussies because they want a war where nobody dies. Thats insane. We have to fight these jihadists or we have to praise allah. Take your pick.
Oh and my question was simple. If the terrorists talked like you Liberals did, wouldn't you think they were weak and could easily be defeated if we only killed a few of them in a brutal way?
Liberals are a key part of the Al-Qeada strategy. Give them a bloody nose and they run for the hills.
Posted by: Justin at April 23, 2007 09:43 AM (hJmIk)
39
Justin:
You admit there are jihadists in Iraq.
There are now that people like you have our troops stuck there as sitting ducks. In 2000 Iraq wasn't a threat to anyone.
Ignoring all the BS that led up to this war, do you think we should just let them have Iraq? Happy birthday Osama! Merry Ramadan Ahmadinijad! A country of your own, filled with oil.
Look, Osama wasn't in Iraq, had nothing to do with 911, and had no operational ties with Saddam. Ahmadinijad is in Iran. What does invading Iraq have to do with either of them?
Don't you think it alot of lives could have been saved if we took out Hitler in the 30's? Yes. Saddamn Hussein was a modern day Hitler. We took him out.
Hitler was a genocidal maniac who lead an advanced industrial economy. Saddam was neither of those things. He was basically harmless in 2001.
Now we are trying to build a country from scratch. We did in Japan.
Not true. We retained most of Japan's laws and their parliament. An Iraqi govt will have to be made of whole cloth.
We are VERY close to stabilizing Iraq. The civil war is winding down as the jihad from the terrorists is gearing up. People who wanted to kill us a year ago are realizing there better off with America than Osama.
It is not stabilizing at all. There are more and more car bombs. US casualties are still heavy. You are dreaming.
The jihadists kill women and children. We don't.
What bull. Remember the tons of bombs we dropped?
Give the surge a chance and quit your friggin WHINING.
We've walked into Osama's trap as per my quotation above, and you say I'm whining. We've sacrificed 3,500 troops and half a trillion dollars for nothing and I'm whining. Bush is determined to continue the war without any timetable so he can say it's the next guy's fault and I'm whining.
We will know if it is working by the fall.
Come the fall you will need to break out your big shoes and round red nose. You will look into the mirror one morning and face a clown and a loser. Oh, and a coward. Why aren't you doing your part?
The Libs are pussies because they want a war where nobody dies.
No, we want a war that has some bearing on Osama and 911. Nice mouth, by the way. I'm sure your mother is proud of you.
Let us know which branch of the military you decided on. I'm guessing the 101st Fighting Keyboarders will suit you best, coward.
Posted by: Lex Steele at April 23, 2007 11:22 AM (40R2V)
40
You know Lex, every time I see "101st Fighting Keyboarders" cited by one of you anti-war liberals, I smile. I attended the 1st annual MilBlog conference where this was discussed, and am proud to see it has had its intended effect.
You still have brought nothing of value to this discussion. Provide us an insight to your way out. With honor. Without losing to al Qaeda.
Posted by: CoRev at April 23, 2007 12:06 PM (0U8Ob)
41
Your cowardice makes you smile? That's novel. Most of us would have the decency to be ashamed.
The way out of Iraq is simply logistics. No, we will not leave with honor, but it will be worse the longer we put it off. The sooner we leave the more resource we will have left to engage them productively, instead of occupying a country where we are not welcome and our troops are sitting ducks.
Read William Odom's interview with Hugh Hewitt. He describes the predicament more eloquently than I can.
Posted by: Lex Steele at April 23, 2007 02:27 PM (40R2V)
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Lex, now you are calling me a coward? And, Iraq is a predicament?
Let me ask you another question. How do YOU support the troops? I can list mine. Can you?
And to the cowardice point, I am too old to serve, and already have. Have you?
You have been challenged to propose some action that does not leave us without honor, and you say we cannot. Not Dhimmie talking points to pass on in this area? I'm absolutely shocked to know that..
Posted by: CoRev at April 23, 2007 03:55 PM (0U8Ob)
43
Folks, I've already deleted several comments from folks for profanity and personal attacks. Please engage the topic, not each other's character.
Those that can't play by house rules will be invited to play elsewhere.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at April 23, 2007 07:53 PM (HcgFD)
44
Confederate Yankee: my older son is a U.S. Army First Lieutenant (with Ranger tab) serving as a platoon leader in Iraq; and the problem is that it takes profanity to deal with the left wing nitwits such as Lex Steele who don't have a clue.
Posted by: Phil Byler at April 23, 2007 09:08 PM (qthJd)
45
Lex, now you are calling me a coward?
Yes.
And, Iraq is a predicament?
Obviously. Bush said Mission Accomplished in 2003, yet here we are.
How do YOU support the troops?
77% said they want to come home within a year. I support them. You don't.
You have been challenged to propose some action that does not leave us without honor, and you say we cannot.
As I said, we're going to leave sooner or later. Your side is the one compromising this country's honor. It was the wrong war. Though toppling Saddam was relatively easy, and our troops have performed excellently, we cannot impose the rule of law with military night alone.
Look at all the failed plans. This is from the guy who runs IntelDump. You all quoted him enthusiastically when he was delivering the positive news. Now he seems all but certain that the war is lost.
Posted by: Lex Steele at April 23, 2007 09:30 PM (40R2V)
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Phil Byler:
my older son is a U.S. Army First Lieutenant (with Ranger tab) serving as a platoon leader in Iraq; and the problem is that it takes profanity to deal with the left wing nitwits such as Lex Steele who don't have a clue.
The Iraqis, the US citizens, and the US troops all favor withdrawal. Who is it that doesn't have a clue? That's why you're reduced to profanity, because the facts aren't on your side. Your need to help bring your son home. You have faith against reason in a doomed mission. Look at the article I quoted in my last comment. There are fewer and fewer people who believe this is a war that can be won.
I sincerely with the best of luck to your son.
Posted by: Lex Steele at April 23, 2007 09:39 PM (40R2V)
47
Lex, well Duhhhh, they were all supposed to return home in a year or less when your poll was taken. So what answer would you expect?
I still wish someone would ask these very simple poll questions of the Iraqis: Do you want us to leave? When?
I also wish we could ask a similar simple question of Americans: Do you want us to lose the war in Iraq?
Answers to these questions will stop most discussions.
Posted by: CoRev at April 23, 2007 09:57 PM (0U8Ob)
48
Sorry about the profanity CY. Wont happen again. I lost it a little when this guy calls me a coward. He doesnt know me.
Posted by: Justin at April 23, 2007 10:31 PM (NiTuu)
49
CoRev: you don't follow the news very closely. I found the examples below with about three minutes of googling. There are many more such examples if you care to look yourself.
Many or most Iraqis think it's okay to attack US forces in their country. Think about that before you tell me I'm not supporting the troops.
- Nearly half of Iraqis approve of attacks on US-led forces
- 70% of Iraqis favor setting a timeline for the withdrawal of US forces.
- Support for attacks against US-led forces has increased sharply to 61 percent (27% strongly, 34% somewhat). This represents a 14-point increase from January 2006, when only 47 percent of Iraqis supported attacks.
- Two-thirds now oppose the presence of U.S. and coalition forces in Iraq, 14 points higher than in February 2004. Nearly six in 10 disapprove of how the United States has operated in Iraq since the war, and most of them disapprove strongly. And nearly half of Iraqis would like to see U.S. forces leave soon.
Posted by: Lex Steele at April 23, 2007 11:39 PM (40R2V)
50
Lex, well Duhhhh, they were all supposed to return home in a year or less when your poll was taken.
That is so weak it made me wince. No doubt you have some rationale for why you did so poorly in school, but the actual reason is real simple.
Do you think the soldiers feel supported now that deployments are extended to 15 months? I'm guessing yes.
Posted by: Lex Steele at April 23, 2007 11:54 PM (40R2V)
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Do you think the soldiers feel supported now that deployments are extended to 15 months? I'm guessing yes.
Posted by Lex Steele at April 23, 2007 11:54 PM
Speaking from experience, it's not the length of the deployment that makes you feel supported, it's giving Kudos where and when they belong (there has been a hell of a lot more good in Iraq then the news even comes close to mentioning.).
Posted by: Retired Navy at April 24, 2007 05:20 AM (lNB+R)
52
Lex, your research still has not answered my three simple questions. No context, no build up, no spinning, just a simple poll. Let's see the results and then discussions will be ended.
And, most politicians behinds would be covered.
Posted by: CoRev at April 24, 2007 07:30 AM (0U8Ob)
53
Lex go read this email from a soldier in Iraq
http://64.13.251.37/2007/04/23/marine-corporal-from-a-bunker-in-ramadi-i-got-a-message-for-that-douche-harry-reid
BTW if you ask a soldier if he wants to go home he will say yes. If you ask them if they think all soldiers should quit and go home they will say no. Your stat is based on a loaded question.
Posted by: Justin at April 24, 2007 07:33 AM (NiTuu)
54
There are fewer and fewer people who believe this is a war that can be won.
Yeah more and more people who dont know what they are talking about. And they get there info from the Liberal propaganda machine chugging along in this country. Why doesnt the media report ONE SINGLE good thing about Iraq? Because it doesnt fit the "Democrat in '08" philosophy. '06 wasnt good enough. The Libs and Mr. Soros want it all no matter how much distortion of the truth it takes.
Posted by: Justin at April 24, 2007 07:39 AM (NiTuu)
55
Lex, well Duhhhh, they were all supposed to return home in a year or less when your poll was taken.
That is so weak it made me wince. No doubt you have some rationale for why you did so poorly in school, but the actual reason is real simple.
Do you think the soldiers feel supported now that deployments are extended to 15 months? I'm guessing yes.
Lex, support is when you say
"Good job guys." or "We're behind you 100%" or "We belive in what your dying for."
not when you say
"You lost the war" "The war is unwinnable", "We have no confidence in you", "We dont believe your generals know what they are doing. We (congress) are more qualified for that job."
I dont know how you guys can think that is supporting the troops.
Posted by: Justin at April 24, 2007 07:46 AM (NiTuu)
56
CoRev: your research still has not answered my three simple questions... I still wish someone would ask these very simple poll questions of the Iraqis: Do you want us to leave? When?
I replied with snippets from various polls on the internet. I bolded some parts that you missed:
- Nearly half of Iraqis approve of attacks on US-led forces
- 70% of Iraqis favor setting a timeline for the withdrawal of US forces.
- Support for attacks against US-led forces has increased sharply to 61 percent (27% strongly, 34% somewhat). This represents a 14-point increase from January 2006, when only 47 percent of Iraqis supported attacks.
- Two-thirds now oppose the presence of U.S. and coalition forces in Iraq, 14 points higher than in February 2004. Nearly six in 10 disapprove of how the United States has operated in Iraq since the war, and most of them disapprove strongly. And nearly half of Iraqis would like to see U.S. forces leave soon.
Do you understand now? Perhaps you can have a friend draw pictures for you.
I also wish we could ask a similar simple question of Americans: Do you want us to lose the war in Iraq?
That's a loaded question obviously. Of course neither I nor anyone else I know wants us to lose the war. Rather, we don't know how to define a victory any better than what we've achieved, so it's unfair to ask our troops to remain.
The conservative Republican truism used to be, you can't force democracy at the barrel of a gun. Japan and Germany were way different. If many or most Iraqis think it's okay to attack our troops, then we aren't going to promote a democracy there. The battle for hearts and minds has been lost.
Posted by: Lex Steele at April 24, 2007 10:21 AM (40R2V)
57
Justin: go read this letter.
BTW if you ask a soldier if he wants to go home he will say yes. If you ask them if they think all soldiers should quit and go home they will say no. Your stat is based on a loaded question.
It's at best tortured reasoning to say that you are supporting the troops by keeping them there if they want to come home.
Posted by: Lex Steele at April 24, 2007 10:24 AM (40R2V)
58
Justin:
Why doesnt the media report ONE SINGLE good thing about Iraq?
We have walked right into Osama's trap. Iraq and Israel were the only countries in the region not involved in jihad, so Osama is delighted to see us bogged down there. What good news do you want to hear? How many of our troops haven't been killed yet? As I quoted above, many or most of the Iraqis think it's OK to attack our troops. You live in a fun house.
Be glad of the good news: America is mired in the swamps of the Tigris and Euphrates. Bush is, through Iraq and its oil, easy prey. Here is he now, thank God, in an embarassing situation and here is America today being ruined before the eyes of the whole world.
--Osama bin Laden, video message broadcast October 18, 2003
Posted by: Lex Steele at April 24, 2007 10:30 AM (40R2V)
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Justin:
Lex, support is when you say "Good job guys." or "We're behind you 100%"
I said above they've performed excellently, and that's what I believe. I am behind them 100%. I want them to be fighting a war that they can win or not at all, not dying for a failed president's vanity. They're in a war for hearts and minds where most of the Iraqis think it's okay to attack our troops and want us to leave. What a fiasco.
The troops want to leave, too. I'm supporting them, you are condemning them. One poll showed "Only 1 in 5 troops want an open commitment."
or "We belive in what your dying for." not when you say "You lost the war" "The war is unwinnable", "We have no confidence in you", "We dont believe your generals know what they are doing. We (congress) are more qualified for that job."
The war is not winnable, so it's cowardly to lie and say it is. The soldiers did not a thing wrong, it was Bush, Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz, Feith, Cheney, et al, and people like you who keep wanting to double down instead of preserving the resources we have left.
Posted by: Lex Steele at April 24, 2007 10:38 AM (40R2V)
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To Lex Steele: If you will check my comments, I have not actually used profanity; and no, I am not reduced to profanity because the facts are on my side. Sorry, Lex Steele, but it is you who really do not have a clue. The assertions you make are not true. What you say reflects that what you htink you know ios based on what you read, but you lack experience. You are just citing this biased poll and that piece of "reporting" in the mainstream media to weave together your argument for cutting and running from Iraq and accepting the radical Islamist defeat of the democratically elected Iraqi government that operates under a democratically elected written Constitution. You are not thinking ahead in terms of what that will mean in Iraq and in what is a war with the radical Islamists. You are a defeatist, but the troops, including my older son, are not. Your assertion that the troops want to leave Iraq is just laughably wrong. If you ask a single soldier in World War II or in Iraq, if he would like to go home, the answer is likely to be yes; but that answer did not mean that the soldiers did not want to defeat Hitler or Tojo in World War II and does not mean that the soldiers do not want to defeat al Qaeda and local allied insurgents in Iraq.
Posted by: Phil Byler at April 24, 2007 01:44 PM (qthJd)
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Phil,
Again, your son has my best wishes, and I appreciate his service.
However I'll go to my grave believing that we cannot foist democracy onto a populace that thinks it's okay to attack our troops and wants them to leave. I'm not even sure if Democracy's the goal anymore. Bush's goal is clearly to let the next guy clean up.
Posted by: Lex Steele at April 24, 2007 11:37 PM (40R2V)
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It never ceases to amaze me how little self-avowed liberals are so purposefully ignorant about their own Constitution:
Our famous Constitution, about which many of us are generally so proud, enshrines -- along with the right to freedom of speech, press, religion and assembly -- the right to own guns. That's an apples and oranges list if there ever was one.
Not all of us are so proud and triumphant about the gun-guarantee clause. The right to free speech, press, religion and assembly and so on seem to be working well, but the gun part, not so much.
The dolt who wrote this, Tom Plate, is not surprisingly the former editor of the Los Angeles
Times.
He is hardly alone.
Another journalist, Walter Shapiro of
Salon stated the following earlier this week:
Fifteen unambiguous words are all that would be required to quell the American-as-apple-pie cycle of gun violence that has now tearfully enshrined Virginia Tech in the record book of mass murder. Here are the 15 words that would deliver a mortal wound to our bang-bang culture of death: "The second article of amendment to the Constitution of the United States is hereby repealed."
[snip]
Looking at the Bill of Rights with more than two centuries' hindsight, it is simply irrational that firearms have a protected position on par with freedom of speech and religion. Were Americans -- liberal or conservative -- writing a Constitution completely from scratch today, they probably would agree that something akin to "freedom to drive" was more far important than the "right to bear arms." The rights of state militias (which many liberal legal theorists argue is the essence of the Second Amendment) are as much a throwback to an 18th century mind-set as restrictions on quartering soldiers in private homes during peacetime (the little-remembered Third Amendment).
Alexander Hamilton, were he still alive today, may have chosen to respond to these craven abdications of responsibility by reiterating the following:
To model our political system upon speculations of lasting tranquility, is to calculate on the weaker springs of the human character.
What Hamilton means, and both to Plate and Shaprio are too dim, too pampered, and yes, too cowardly to let cross their minds, is the fact that no system of government is perfect, including our own Republic. It is the very nature of government to attempt to consolidate power, usurping for itself the rights and powers afforded to other branches and levels of governments on some occasions, and always,
always from the people themselves.
It is because of the creeping pervasiveness and the promised tyranny of government (the same tyranny liberals constantly accuse the Executive of trying to implement on every other issue facing this nation, but noticeably fall silent on here) that arms must always be held by the people, for the people, as Noah Webster observed in "An Examination of the Leading Principles of the Federal Constitution."
Before a standing army can rule, the people must be disarmed; as they are in almost every kingdom in Europe. The supreme power in America cannot enforce unjust laws by the sword; because the whole body of the people are armed, and constitute a force superior to any band of regular troops that can be, on any pretence, raised in the United States. A military force, at the command of Congress, can execute no laws, but such as the people perceive to be just and constitutional; for they will possess the power, and jealousy will instantly inspire the inclination, to resist the execution of a law which appears to them unjust and oppressive.
The Second Amendment was never about hunting, or sportsmanship. The Second Amendment was, and still is, the singular Amendment guaranteeing all others. To dismantle the Second, as John Adams noted in "A Defence of the Constitutions of the United States,":
...is to demolish every constitution, and lay the laws prostrate, so that liberty can be enjoyed by no man; it is a dissolution of the government.
As goes the Second Amendment, so does the United States of America itself. Without a "well regulated militia"--"regulated" meaning practiced and competent with arms, the "militia" recognized as all people of military age and capability--the United States falls.
Noted Patrick Henry:
Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect every one who approaches that jewel. Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but downright force. Whenever you give up that force, you are ruined.
The Second Amendment of the Constitution was never about self defense from criminals. To the Founders, that right was inherent, provided by the Creator above. The purpose of the Second Amendment was to enshrine in this nation the capability to take this nation back by force from a corrupt government, overthrowing it if necessary.
So wrote Supreme Court Associate Justice Joseph Story in "Commentaries on the Constitution of the United States":
The next amendment is: 'A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.'
"The importance of this article will scarcely be doubted by any persons, who have duly reflected upon the subject. The militia is the natural defence of a free country against sudden foreign invasions, domestic insurrections, and domestic usurpations of power by rulers...
The right of the citizens to keep and bear arms has justly been considered, as the palladium of the liberties of a republic; since it offers a strong moral check against the usurpation and arbitrary power of rulers; and will generally, even if these are successful in the first instance, enable the people to resist and triumph over them.(1) And yet, though this truth would seem so clear, and the importance of a well regulated militia would seem so undeniable, it cannot be disguised, that among the American people there is a growing indifference to any system of militia discipline, and a strong disposition, from a sense of its burdens, to be rid.
It is no accident that Justice Story chose to use the word "palladium" to describe the critical importance of the Second Amendment, which is
defined as:
- A safeguard, especially one viewed as a guarantee of the integrity of social institutions: the Bill of Rights, palladium of American civil liberties.
- A sacred object that was believed to have the power to preserve a city or state possessing it.
The Second Amendment is our palladium, that sacred object that preserves our Republic as a nation of men instead of a nation of laws slaved to tyrants.
Story accurately pegs Plate, Shapiro, and others that do not wish to be yoked with the responsibility of protecting themselves, or their nation. It is a burden too heavy for them to carry, a responsibility they wish to be rid of. To a man, their ilk ignores the lessons history would teach, and call for the power and responsibility to be handed to the very state that would ensnare them.
They are sheep: fearful, bleating, unwilling to deal with the weighted cost of freedom. They would trade all their freedoms for the temporary illusion of safety.
I think we know how the Founder might have responded to that sentiment.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
12:49 PM
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1
Thanks, Bob, for this great piece, and doing all that research. I think I would have liked Patrick Henry.
I would just like to add that gun grabbers are always claiming that this militia clause means that guns were to be locked up in an armory.
When you encounter this argument, ask the person what a Minute Man was. A Minute Man was a citizen who could transform himself into a soldier in a minute's time by taking his military capable musket from its rack in his home, and stepping out his front door to joing his similarly armed neighbors marching down the road.
Also, since the citizens of the new country did NOT give up their guns to the government to be locked up in armories, ask WHY the new citizens immediately started, and continued to VIOLATE the very Constitution they had just finished ratifying -- if locked up guns in government hands is what the 2nd means?
It is no accident that the First Amendment with its several rights rests upon the Second which contains just one right.
Posted by: Bill Smith at April 20, 2007 01:21 PM (nMNv7)
2
Discussions about the second amendment seem unusual in that they always go back directly to the language of the original document, rather than to the case law and interpretations that have arisen since then.
In this spirit, then, if the ideas of the "well-regulated militia" and the right of gun ownership are so closely linked, could it not be argued that universal enrollment in the militia is implied, just as some suggest that universal gun ownership is implied?
Could we not look at the second amendment as saying that everyone needs to be on active reserve in the military? As Uncle Ben says in Spider-Man, "With great power comes great responsibility."
Posted by: Doc Washboard at April 20, 2007 03:04 PM (nrafD)
3
Doc, we are. What do you think your Selective Service Card is?
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at April 20, 2007 03:07 PM (9y6qg)
4
Beyond even a constitutional argument lies the nature of rights. Do we have "natural" or, as stated in the Declaration of Independence, "unalienable" Rights or do our rights flow from the government.
It is doubtful any one would support the latter proposition. Thus, it is fair to say we have "unalienable Rights", including rights to "Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness"
If one has an "unalienable" right to Life, i would posit that you have also the right to protect that right, with force if necessary.
If i was to make an argument that private ownership of firearms was not constitutional, i would rely on the 2nd Amendment and that portion of the Constitution that permits Congress to
"To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining, the militia, and for governing such part of them as may be employed in the service of the United States, reserving to the states respectively, the appointment of the officers, and the authority of training the militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress;"
My argument would be that Congress has the authority to arm the militia and thus the right to store such arms in a central armory or even decide on the kinds of arms, if any, the milita were to use.
This argument has problems, notably that the Constitution was amended to include the Second Amendment and that suggests that whatever Congress felt about their power to arm militias, the arms were to remain in the possession of the citizens.
Posted by: Rich at April 20, 2007 04:25 PM (lF2Kk)
5
could it not be argued that universal enrollment in the militia is implied
Not implied at all. Explicit. Take a look at 10 USC 311 and how federal law defines "militia".
Kinda shoots down the national guard rationalizations eh?
Posted by: Purple Avenger at April 20, 2007 06:45 PM (kr/gV)
6
What people have to realize is that not a single person in Virginia was killed by a gun. They were killed by a madman.
Every, single safeguard for the students failed. The killer was known to be a dangerous psycho. Yet no one did anything about it. The background checks to purchase the guns proved to be a joke like everyone knows, the kids could not protect themselves, the cops were totally ineffective at all times, only threatening the innocent and exposing them to danger from friendly fire.
Now people want more regulation. For those of you who feel you do not need a gun, come down to Shreveport with me on a Saturday night and we will walk some of the local streets together. Of cocurse I will be armed.
Posted by: David Caskey at April 20, 2007 07:13 PM (r9Q7T)
7
My argument would be that Congress has the authority to arm the militia
"Shall" and "may" are quite different terms. Which one do you advocate?
Posted by: Purple Avenger at April 20, 2007 09:13 PM (kr/gV)
8
Confederate Yankee, I would concede that you're right on many accounts about the Second Amendment, and that during the 18th century, such a right did ensure the citizens' "capability to take [the US] back by force from a corrupt government, overthrowing it if necessary."
However, the United States Military, if at some point turned against its own citizens, would hardly find challenges while possessing infantry fighting vehicles, Apache helicopters, biological weapons, or nuclear weapons. The US military (currently operating on $419.3 Bil.) would overwhelm such a militia, easily. This was not the case back when the Second Amendment was being considered. How does this play within your argument and does this pose an interesting question to not only the topic stated but to the dangers of an overwhelming military budget more generally?
Posted by: Joel at April 21, 2007 03:34 AM (Zz+O+)
9
would hardly find challenges
Other than power outages, logistics shortages, etc. Irate truckers and infrastructure operators can cause a lot of problems.
Life is tough when those food deliveries get hijacked by the resistance, the trucks "breakdown", etc.
Rather amazing the British were ever defeated in the revolution. They had all the modern technology of the day, well trained troops, etc.
But wait - they couldn't have been defeated according to you.
Posted by: Purple Avenger at April 21, 2007 03:32 PM (kr/gV)
10
Let's assume for the sake of discussion that guns are here to stay.
Why the hell are so many people being shot to death in the U.S.? How do we solve the problem? Firearms training? It seems like that would only teach a potential shooter how to kill more efficiently. In the same way, bartender training wouldn't teach someone to drink responsibly; it would only teach them to prepare better-tasting booze.
Assuming the widespread distribution of weapons, the problem seems insoluble. Insights from all sides would be appreciated. This whole thing is bumming me out.
Posted by: Doc Washboard at April 21, 2007 06:55 PM (JeAx4)
11
So CS, you're saying we need guns for a future insurgency?
Just kidding. I know what you're saying. This argument is very intriguing.
Posted by: dmarek at April 21, 2007 08:03 PM (rhcj5)
12
Doc, the first thing you need to do is look at WHO those "so many people being shot to death in the U.S." really are. The Brady Campaign is not the place to look at that. For example, they make a huge deal about how many "children" are supposedly shot to death in the US. Their definition of child ends at age 20, 2 years past the US government's.
Then when you start looking inside those numbers, you find that the majority are between 15 and 20 year old gang-bangers. These are not the ones who will bother getting a CHL, mostly because their records would prevent them from legally buying a gun in the first place.
What we are talking about is training and arming the law-abiding to resist the criminals who will have guns anyway. A fine example is the state of Florida, which implemented shall-issue permitting. 2 years later, exactly one of those new permit holders had been arrested for a crime involving a gun.
Posted by: SDN at April 22, 2007 07:54 PM (TIw0n)
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Joe Biden: The Virginia Tech Massacre is the GOP's Fault
I kid you not:
Speaking at Al Sharpton's National Action Network event in New York, Biden said President Bush, Newt Gingrich and Karl Rove are responsible for what he called "the politics of polarization."
Biden said Republicans have created an environment that brings bad things to the United States.
"I would argue, since 1994 with the Gingrich revolution, just take a look at Iraq, Venezuela, Katrina, what's gone down at Virginia Tech, Darfur, Imus. Take a look. This didn't happen accidentally, all these things," he said.
I'm surprised Biden didn't find time to work in bird flu, the Sumatra-Andaman earthquake and tsunami, some 9/11 "truth," and John Edward's $400 haircut in there as well. Perhaps he's saving those for a rainy day.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
11:36 AM
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1
I'm blaming it on global warming. Everything bad these days is the fault of global warming.
Posted by: Purple Avenger at April 20, 2007 10:53 PM (kr/gV)
2
Well, name ONE bad thing that happened before Bush, Gingrich and Rove were in power. Can't, can you? Thousands of years of human development went by without a hitch until then. Damn Republicans and their politics of polarization!
Posted by: DoorHold at April 21, 2007 10:59 AM (VbPGQ)
3
Well obviously the answer to VA Tech massacre is to repeal the tax cuts for the wealthiest 1-percenters and to impeach Dick Cheney.
(Aren't those the democrat plans to solve everything?)
Posted by: muckdog at April 22, 2007 11:55 PM (s/Vux)
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Va Tech Massacre Updates: An Incompetent Retired ATF Agent; and a Dishonest Lede from CBS
Allahpundit has been burning the midnight oil at Hot Air, and has some shocking updates on the Virginia Tech massacre perpetrated by a deranged student, Cho Seung-Hui.
First, NBC is
now claiming that Cho had a staggering number of magazines, including extended 33-round magazines:
Virginia State Police say they're nearly done with their on-scene investigation at Virginia Tech. But inside the classroom building, investigators say they found a surprising number of handgun magazines, or clips — 17. Some, officials say, were high-capacity magazines that hold 33 rounds. That means, investigators say, that Cho may have fired at least 200 times during his killing spree on Monday.
As AP notes, this contradicts a
WaPo story I cited yesterday, which said:
Cho reloaded several times, using 15-round magazines for the Glock and 10-round magazines for the Walther, investigators said...
I wouldn't be surprised to see that Cho had multiple magazines, but 17 is a huge number of full magazines to carry. If 15 of those were standard 15 round Glock 19 magazines, that would give him 225 rounds, plus 20 in the 2 10-round P22 factory magazines for a total of 245 rounds. If some of those Glock magazines were the extended 31 and 33-round magazines as NBC now claims, he could easily have been carrying in excess of 300 rounds, and that doesn't include any loose or boxed ammunition he may have had.
I'll try to run this down, and see which investigators are getting this story right.
Before I go on, however, I'm going to take issue with retired ATF agent Joseph Vince, who NBC quotes in their article:
In the photos Cho sent to NBC, he showed some of his ammunition — hollow-point rounds, purchased, officials say, in the weeks before the shootings. Law enforcement officials say hollow-points are generally considered more lethal.
Joseph Vince, a retired ATF agent, agrees.
"It's not something that you would need for home protection, because what you are trying to do is eliminate an immediate threat," Vince says. "The idea of killing is what this ammunition portrays to me."
Vince is unequivocally
wrong in this instance, and I don't see how he could be misquoted.
Hollowpoint and frangible ammunition is
precisely the kind of ammunition you would want for home defense and personal protection.
Vince seems to be implying that FMJ ball, soft-nosed, wadcutter, semi-wadcutter or round-nosed lead bullets would be a more favorable choice for home defense than hollowpoints or frangible ammunition, and that is not only wrong, but ignorant and I'd go as far as to say it is stupid.
FMJ ball, soft-nosed (jacketed bullets with an exposed lead tip), wadcutter, semi-wadcutter or round-nosed lead bullets are solid bullets that do not typically change shape much when encountering human-sized targets or most building materials. As a result, if someone has to fire one of these bullets at a person, only one of two things can happen:
- The shooter hits his target and the bullet over-penetrates, goes through his target, and runs the risk of going through building materials and other people with enough velocity to kill or wound someone else. Depending on the caliber, these bullets can hit a human and retain enough energy to completely pass through with enough force to go through several more sheetrock walls and still retain enough energy to kill someone else. Because these bullets typically go through a target while still retaining a great amount of energy, they are by definition not translating that energy into stopping power, and cause less damage to the primary target than would hollowpoint or frangible ammunition, which tend to expend more or all of their energy into the target, translating to more stopping power on directly comparable shots.
- The shooter misses his target, and the bullet goes through multiple layers of building materials. FMJ ball, soft-nosed (jacketed bullets with an exposed lead tip), wadcutter, semi-wadcutter or round-nosed lead bullets will typically retain their shape and energy far better than hollowpoint or frangible ammunition, and will therefore penetrate far more layers of building materials. Many solid centerfire pistol bullets will penetrate more than a dozen layers of sheetrock if they don't encounter something with more mass (a 2x stud, other materials, or a human body).
I recall at least one instance where a home owner in a home invasion scenario fired a FMJ bullet (.45 ACP 230-grain FMJ, I think) that missed his target, exited his home, completely went through another home entirely, and finally lodged in the far bedroom wall of a
third home, above a sleeping girl's head. Had she been sitting up, she could have been seriously injured or killed.
Hollowpoints that function as designed open into a mushroom shape, and offer far more surface area for friction to affect once they start encountering other objects. They will not penetrate as far as the various solid bullet designs in identical circumstances as a result. If they hit their human target, the hollowpoint bullet transfers mote energy into a target, and stands greater likelihood of incapacitating the assailant when compared to identical shot placement from any of the solid bullet designs. Likewise, those hollowpoints that completely penetrate the human target will be more likely to stop faster than solid designed when encountering building materials, also because of the wider surface area.
In
most (not all) home defense scenarios, frangible ammunition, while far more expensive than either the hollowpoint or solid ammunition designs, is the best option. When a homeowner confronts an assailant and is forced to fire directly at his target with no intervening material separating them, the frangible bullet fragments inside the target, transferring most or all of it's ammunition to its target on a hit. Tests on French alpine goats in the Strasbourg (sp?) tests confirmed that frangible bullet designs are superior to all other bullets designs in incapacitating a human-sized target, with various hollowpoint designs coming in behind, and solid designs behind hollowpoints in terms of effectiveness.
Joseph Vince, retired AFT agent or not, is horribly, horribly wrong here.
Allahpundit
goes on to note that if Virginia had forwarded Choo's mental health evaluation to the federal government, Cho should have never been able to buy the Glock:
The magistrate ruled in 2005 that Cho presented “an imminent danger to self or others as a result of mental illness, or is so seriously mentally ill as to be substantially unable to care for self and is incapable of volunteering or unwilling to volunteer for treatment.” He should have been in the FBI’s NICS system, but apparently states don’t always provide mental-health records as fully as they might or should.
If this
CBS News story is correct, then Cho bought his Walther P22 online. Horrors!
Oh wait. He didn't. Media ignorance and misrepresentation once again rears its ugly head:
On this same day, the gun was shipped to JND Pawnbrokers in Blacksburg, Va., where Cho picked up the gun two days later. The federally licensed store then did a background check.
First, the sequence of events in paragraph is backwards. Cho could only pick up the gun
after the NICS check, and that is what occurred. CBS News ignorance, or purposeful design?
You make the call.
The actual sequence of events run in direct opposition to what the article claims in the lede:
On Feb. 2, Cho Seung-Hui bought a Walther .22 caliber pistol from the online retail store www.thegunsource.com. It was the first and only time he ever used this particular Web site.
Without a Federal Firearms License (FFL), Cho
could not directly by a gun through mail order or online, as the lede improperly states. It isn't until the final paragraph that we learn Cho
did not buy the gun from the online site.
Instead, he chose the model he wanted and had it shipped to a business with a FFL, where he then went through the normal purchase process, as you would in any retail firearms purchase.
This tragedy at Virginia Tech is horrible, but the reporting of it thus far is showing us either the professional media is a bunch of bumbling incompetents, or are agenda-driven deceivers.
I'm not sure which possibility frightens me the most.
Update: Ace
calls foul. Actually, he calls a word I won't use on a family-friendly blog, but you get the picture.
Go read it.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
10:21 AM
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1
How much does 300 rounds of that ammo and clips weigh? I would think quite a bit. Yet this gup is walking all over campus with the stuff.
I think the MSM and liberals need to answer how this occured with all the restrictions in place that they desire. Of course they don't want guns at all, but look what happen in Australia when that occured.
Posted by: David Caskey at April 20, 2007 10:39 AM (G5i3t)
2
bunch of bumbling incompetents, or are agenda-driven deceivers
All of the above.
Posted by: Purple Avenger at April 20, 2007 10:45 AM (0FEBg)
3
At least now I understand what a co-worker was blathering on about, "Illegal this and illegal that." I had heard not one word about his purchases being illegal so I didn't have anything usefull to say in response. If she got her "dis-information" from the press it all makes sense now.
Pity his psych records weren't forwarded ("pity" is such an inadequate word for this).
Posted by: DoorHold at April 20, 2007 10:58 AM (BzJd6)
4
Well, he had to lie about the mental illness adjudication on the 4473's, so that was his first felony before he ever owned a gun.
Posted by: Purple Avenger at April 20, 2007 11:23 AM (0FEBg)
5
Well, US Army troops routinely carry at least 210 rounds - one 30rd mag in the rifle, six in the pouches.
Perhaps more if they want to. They may also still be slightly underloading the 30rd mags to avoid jams.
IIRC, each mag is about a pound or two loaded.
Posted by: SGT Jeff (USAR) at April 20, 2007 12:14 PM (yiMNP)
6
"Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity, but don't rule out malice. " -- Robert A. Heinlein (also claimed by some others). There's definitely a lot of something going around these days.
I excerpted and linked at VTech+4: Where to from here?
Posted by: Bill Faith at April 20, 2007 12:16 PM (n7SaI)
7
Cho probably DID buy the gun online. He paid the online store for the gun and paid to ship the gun to the FLL near him. He was almost certainly charged a fee by the local FFL to process the paperwork.
It's a technicality, I know, but since you're fussing at the media for getting it wrong, you might want to check with a local gun dealer and find out exactly how they handle such purchases.
Posted by: LibbyLA at April 20, 2007 01:21 PM (W/lOe)
8
It's a technicality, I know, but since you're fussing at the media for getting it wrong, you might want to check with a local gun dealer and find out exactly how they handle such purchases.
Libby, I am a "gun dealer."
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at April 20, 2007 01:49 PM (9y6qg)
9
I wonder if rather than 17 magazines, he had some number of 17 round magazines.
Posted by: Rich at April 20, 2007 02:43 PM (om6ls)
10
"It's not something that you would need for home protection, because what you are trying to do is eliminate an immediate threat," Vince says. "The idea of killing is what this ammunition portrays to me."
I agree. Therefore, police officers should no longer carried their preferred round, the Federal Hydroshock. It's a menace to the public. Just ask that old black widow lady in Atlanta.
Posted by: HerrMorgenholz at April 20, 2007 02:44 PM (5aa4z)
11
When the M-16 came out years ago, it was decided by the military for humanitarian (Geneva Convention??) reasons that jacketed bullets should be used, not hollow-points. This was because the jacketed bullets did considerably less damage and would typically wound people, removing them from action as well as the people it took to get them off the field of fire for medical treatment. Hollow points are designed to kill-Period.
Posted by: Robert at April 20, 2007 03:46 PM (/In4Y)
12
Robert said:
This was because the jacketed bullets did considerably less damage... Hollow points are designed to kill-Period.
We're talking handgun rounds here, they're not going fast enough to create what's called hydrostatic shock, like a rifle bullet going at near 2,000 ft/sec.
Unless you're shooting stuff designated as Less Lethal - bean bag shotgun, etc. - it's all designed with killing in mind. Within the USA, if you're shooting at somebody, the Goblin must generally be threatening grave bodily harm or death before you open fire. That means anytime you shoot at somebody, you must be justified in killing them - PERIOD. And you need to be able to prove that to a court.
Posted by: James Griffin at April 20, 2007 04:27 PM (fyNPJ)
13
By the way, by my scale 300 rounds of 9mm Federal HST +P 124grain hollow point, in original boxes weighs just about 8.72 pounds. Not a great deal. Weight of magazines - non 33 round - is about 3 or 4 ounces each.
Posted by: James Griffin at April 20, 2007 04:40 PM (fyNPJ)
14
These are the kinds of stories you get from agenda-driven people who don't know squat about guns.
Very much like the man-made global warming stories written by C-average non-science students.
Sheesh.
Posted by: cbe at April 20, 2007 04:44 PM (j9AiS)
15
Ummm, that's cube, not cbe.
:-)
Posted by: cube at April 20, 2007 04:45 PM (j9AiS)
16
Robert,
You are an incorrect.
The ban in international land warfare of “Hollow Points” has nothing to do with the advent of the "M16" (Armalite) series of rifles. The ban on Dum-Dum bullets has been in place for land warfare since the Hague Convention of 1899. In fact the current use of FMJ/AP ammunition is hotly debated as possibly both unnecessary and bad practice amongst combat veterans of the late war. Of course a lot of that talk is from speculation, hyperbole and Soldiers who don’t shoot well or have unrealistic expectations of a hit/kill ratio from *any* round. Further, the “DC Sniper” did a pretty freakin good job of killing people with usually one round fired from an Armalite clone.
Do some homework before you spout, Wiki and Google are free:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dum-dum
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5.56_x_45_mm_NATO
http://www.strategypage.com/militaryforums/29-1220.aspx
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beltway_sniper_attacks
Posted by: Moriarti tha Kaffir at April 21, 2007 09:44 AM (YGEpn)
17
Hollowpoint bullets are not all automatically banned from combat. The US military is currently using a 77-grain hollowpoint in 5.56x45 in Iraq and Afghanistan that is Geneva compliant.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at April 21, 2007 11:26 AM (HcgFD)
18
actually, the ban on hollow points, etc., is still in full effect.
though it is true that the mk262 77 grain ammo does have a "hollow tip", that hollow is a result of the bullet manufacturing process. i.e., since the hollow is not intended to cause greater damage, we've authorized ourselves to use it in combat.
Posted by: jk at April 22, 2007 12:02 PM (oOT6G)
19
I too am a retired ATF Special Agent and Joe Vince was my ASAC (Assistant Special Agent in Charge) in Chicago. You are correct on two counts: Joe don't know beans about firearms, and never did, and your assessment of bullet/projectile types is correct.
Posted by: Zebra 54 at April 23, 2007 12:47 PM (G7wJO)
20
Looks like Vince is a ringer. Check this out:
"Well, a quick Google search of the retired ATF agent's name provided the answer in Wikipedia:
"The American Hunters and Shooters Association (AHSA) is an association of hunters and shooters in the United States that was founded in 2005. As an advocacy group it presents itself as a force of moderation and "common sense" in the debate over gun politics in the United States. Its critics say it is a front organization whose real goal is to eliminate the rights of gun owners by driving a wedge into the gun rights movement.
"Leadership
The leaders of the AHSA are:
[snip]
"* Joseph J. Vince, Jr., a member of the Board of Directors is the former chief of the BATF's crime guns analysis branch. Currently, he is a principal of Crime Gun Solutions. [Handgun Control Inc] has hired Crime Gun Solutions in order to support numerous gun control laws, to support HCI's lawsuits against firearm dealers and he was a signer on a letter submitted to Congress opposing the Protection of Lawful Commerce in Arms Act."
http://rovianconspiracy.blogspot.com/2007/04/msnbc-fails-to-identify-expert-in-va.html
Posted by: Poshboy at April 23, 2007 10:12 PM (GCpcA)
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April 19, 2007
Hammering Ross
I'm not the only one noting the anti-gun dishonesty of Brian Ross and ABC News.
The Washington
Times rips into them in "Inside Politics," calling the deceptive Ross and Dana Hughes blog entry a
Media Misfire.
I'd add that they quote impeccable sources.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
07:36 PM
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1
Nice to see you making the news, CY.
Posted by: Dusty at April 20, 2007 11:08 AM (GJLeQ)
2
LOL. Do you think Ross will get the message or were the words to big for him? I mean magazines v. clips, etc....
Posted by: Specter at April 20, 2007 03:19 PM (ybfXM)
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The Lyrical McCain
Ah, how interesting...
Another man — wondering if an attack on Iran is in the works — wanted to know when America is going to "send an air mail message to Tehran."
McCain began his answer by changing the words to a popular Beach Boys song.
"Bomb bomb bomb, bomb bomb Iran," he sang to the tune of Barbara Ann. "Iran is dedicated to the destruction of Israel. That alone should concern us but now they are trying for nuclear capabilities. I totally support the President when he says we will not allow Iran to destroy Israel."
He stopped short of answering the actual question and did not say if he supports an invasion of Iran.
I haven't been this amused by a sung answer to a political question since I spoofed Phil Collins in 2005 in a story about a famous Cuban boy with the headline,
It's No Fun, Being an Illegal Elian.
Now if would just launch into a redition of "Another one bites the dust" in reference to McCain-Feingold, I might just forgive him.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
10:38 AM
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I have forgiven John McCain. My older son is a U.S. Army First Lieutenant serving in Iraq, and I greatly appreciate John McCain's stout and at times eloquent defense of our nation's efforts in the Iraq War.
Posted by: Phil Byler at April 19, 2007 01:48 PM (qthJd)
2
I respectfully suggest to conservatives to "forgive" John McCain. People should read his recent speech at VMI. John McCain, the son and grandson of U.S. Navy Admirals, is the most knowledgeable person in the presidential field in military, national defense and war on terror issues. He was right in his criticisms of the post-invasion strategy in Iraq and is right now in strongly supporting General Petraeus.
John McCain is also pro-life; his books on courage and chracter are gems; he is a fiscal conservative; and he has taken the pledge to the Federalist Society to nominate traditional jurists such as John Roberts and Sam Alito to the U.S. Supreme Court. For the issues facing the nation ahead, John McCain's strengths are great, and he can defeat Hillary or Obama. The policies that Hillary or Obama will follow will be left wing and will lead to terrible results that will make Jimmy Carter look good in comparison.
Posted by: Phil Byler at April 19, 2007 01:58 PM (qthJd)
3
I have a lot of problems with McCain but at least his son has enlisted in the Marines, which is highly unusual for any leader of either party.
It matters if you have skin in the game.
Posted by: David Terrenoire at April 19, 2007 01:59 PM (kxecL)
4
"Bomb Iran" was the title of a novelty tune that was got some airplay back in 1979-80, when Iran committed its' first act of war against the United States.
Posted by: Mike James at April 19, 2007 03:38 PM (EKk77)
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A Proposal for Collegiate Concealed Carry
One of my liberal regulars made the following observation in this post, which got me thinking if there was a "right way" to implement the carrying of concealed weapons at colleges and universities:
The thing that surprises me about the news coverage is the idea that this can be blamed on the fact that this campus was a "no firearm" zone. I didn't know that there was a "fully armed" option when it came to college campuses.
Let's all cast our minds back to college, shall we? I'm willing to bet that every one of us was, to some degree or another, a horse's ass back then. Do we want fully-armed horse's asses on our college campuses? It seems like a bad idea to me.
The idea that more weapons on campus would solve this problem is counterintuitive. This guy was on campus, and he had a weapon, and he killed 33 people.
"Fully armed" college campuses are of course a horrible idea for the very reasons implied above, which are primarily a lack of maturity and the abundant flow of alcohol and other recreational drugs. It would be a recipe for further increasing recipients of the
Darwin Awards, and that is something we are certainly against.
What is reasonable, however, is giving students, faculty, and staff who meet certain rigorous standards the ability to bring handguns on campus for the defense of themselves and others in extraordinary life-threatening circumstances.
Here is my proposal.
The minimum age to purchase a handgun is 21 years old in most states. By definition, this would limit concealed carry to mostly juniors, seniors and graduate students, non-traditional (older) underclassmen, faculty, and staff.
Limit concealed carry to students housed off-campus, and to faculty and staff members. Firearms would not be allowed in the dormitories. This is both a practical and legal consideration. In-dorm firearms could not be secured properly and uniformly, and should not be allowed.
Those students, faculty and staff must prove that they have secure storage for their firearms in their off-campus dwellings.
They must register the firearm they wish to carry on campus with the university police, and qualify with that firearm to show proficiency and safety at least once per calendar year. These requirements are already served by the current CCW licensing process in some states, and actually exceed the CCW licensing of others, who may only require a one-time qualifying performance. It is also comparable to the qualifying guidelines of most police departments.
In addition to these state guidelines, those faculty, staff and off-campus students who qualify under state CCW guidelines should also take a university-prescribed course detailing any additional campus restrictions, and then require them to pass a written test showing these understand both state CCW laws and campus restrictions.
Universities should adopt guidelines for acceptable firearms and ammunition for those who wish to carry on campus, using the following as a general outline:
- All university-approved CCW firearms shall be of modern design and sound mechanical shape, as shall holsters and spare magazine carriers;
- All firearms shall be of standard self-defense calibers, and these calibers are designated as follows: .380 ACP, .38 Special, 9mm Parabellum, .357 SIG, 40 S&W, .44 Special, and .45 ACP or comparable cartridges;
- All firearms using lower-powered cartridges (below .380 ACP) shall not be allowed;
- All firearms using higher-power cartridges (.357, .41, 44 Magnums, and above) shall not be allowed;
- All firearms using bottlenecked ammunition ( exception: .357 SIG) shall not be allowed;
- Only commercially-loaded frangible ammunition shall be allowed.
- Pistol magazines shall be of "standard length" (not exceeding the butt of the firearm but more than 1 inch, including any "bump" pads). The number of magazines would be restricted to one in the firearm and one spare magazine in an approved spare magazine carrier.
The guidelines above are very practical in nature. Certain calibers are simply better than others for CCW purposes, and the calibers cited above encompass the overwhelming majority of those in which defensive handguns are chambered. The frangible ammunition mandate may be new to some that are more familiar with full metal-jacketed (FMJ) and hollowpoint ammunition, and so may need to be explained.
Frangible ammunition is designed to fragment or disintegrate upon or shortly after contact. This significantly reduces the dangers associated with overpenetration, by transferring most or all of the projectile's energy into the target as the bullet fragments. While typically being more lethal to the target, frangible ammunition is not as likely to penetrate structural components (walls, floors, doors).
Glaser and
MagSafe are two of the most common examples.
As for carrying and storage guidelines, all students would be required to carry their firearms and magazines on their persons at all times while on campus (not in a desk, satchel, purse, or bookbag), and all faculty and staff would be expected to follow these same guidelines, with the additional provision that firearms can be kept in individual locked offices in university-approved, bolted-down gun storage safes for faculty and staff.
The requirements and restrictions outlines above are only a rough roadmap of reasonable outlines for a campus concealed carry program.
A similarly-implemented plan would create an atmosphere where the faculty, staff, and students can be confident that those who are allowed to carry concealed weapons on campus are perhaps better trained than their CCW-licensed counterparts in the rest of society, and are arguably as well trained as some municipal police officers.
Your thoughts?
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
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Point 2 and point 5 are contradictory.
357 sig is a bottlenecked cartridge.
But point 5 seems rather silly anyway, bottlenecked cartridges feed more reliably so why ban reliablity?
Posted by: Liberrocky at April 19, 2007 09:58 AM (HR16A)
2
You've addressed most concerns I have but one. If you are on any psychiatric meds of any kind, have any psychiatric needs of any kind, or have been counseled at any time in the past for any related "illness" then no CCW for you.
Still, having said that, there are still those out there that could pass the rigors you stated and still should not be able to carry. Similarly, there are many people who have obtained a drivers license (though not nearly as scrutinized)and shouldn't be anywhere near a car.
Owning weapons is a unique thing. I own many, most or all of my friends own multiple weapons yet there are only a SMALL handful of them I go into the field with. They don't meet "my" standards. It's also sucks to think that 99.8% of people meeting the criteria above could have taken that VaTech creep out if.....
Posted by: markm at April 19, 2007 10:07 AM (hVOTO)
3
Also, if you have had any anger management needs (spousal abuse, road rage incidents, etc.)...no CCW for you. I'm sure there are more.
Posted by: markm at April 19, 2007 10:09 AM (hVOTO)
4
Good point on the .357 SIG, which I've now added an exemption for.
The reasons to ban bottlenecked catridges are twofold:
Most bottlenecked cartridges are rifle caliber cartridges not suitable for self-defense;most pistol-caliber bottlenecked cartridges are plagued with relatively low stopping power coupled with excessive penetration.
The .357 SIG is a notable exception, as it is essentially a 9mm in a necked-down 40 S&W case to attain higher velocities.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at April 19, 2007 10:14 AM (9y6qg)
5
Why are you putting so many restrictions on gun ownership and carry? Sound like a closet liberal to me. As I recall, the 2nd amendment doesn't allow for ANY of the myriad restrictions you call for, so -by definition- you are wrong. No restrictions on any carry, any where!!!
Posted by: Brent at April 19, 2007 11:31 AM (VBB8E)
6
wow...censored...you really don't like opposing views do you?
i actually am a big supporter of the 2nd. what with a government that illegally wiretaps its citizens, opens there mail, tracks their activities, subverts the constitution and treaties, tortures innocents, and politicizes the justice system...the 2nd may be all that saves this once great nation.
Posted by: jay k. at April 19, 2007 11:40 AM (yu9pS)
7
Why don't we just arm an uniformed youth militia to patrol university campuses and weed out any undesirables before they get the chance to do something like this. Guys like this couldn't have been hard to spot - being obsessed with guns and violence, clearly should've been a sign he was mentally unhinged. Anyways, he looks a bit foreign and dresses in military style clothes.
Posted by: Rarian at April 19, 2007 11:45 AM (WaNq/)
8
... That is the very definition of an enemy combatent. He should have been locked up permanently without trial. What's wrong with this country?
btw, I love your tag-line. the doctrine of liberalism is religiously followed by conservatives like the Bush administration while they drool over stacks of money. so there's a certain amount of irony that you've hit on, which i think is great.
As for me, I'm more of a radical libertarian - no government interference and no restrictions on me!
Posted by: Rarian at April 19, 2007 11:57 AM (WaNq/)
9
There are such people already...its called CAMPUS SECURITY...maybe if they spent less on football they would have more cops.
Posted by: madmatt at April 19, 2007 11:59 AM (J8hqn)
10
Better yet...all students are fitted with either magnetic boots (like in the prison in the movie Face Off), or electronic collars which either emit high frequency disabling sound, or stunning shocks (picture dog shock-collar and taser combined). When trouble is reported, everyone in an entire area/building/class can be either locked down or knocked out. Simple.
I think I'd rather accept that sh&t happens, that there are risks in life, and hope that my number isn't up. As tragic as VT was, the odds of anything like this happening to a single person are probably worse than getting hit by a meteor from space.
Posted by: Specter at April 19, 2007 12:03 PM (ybfXM)
11
"The sky is falling. The sky is falling." Quick - let's all panic......
Posted by: Specter at April 19, 2007 12:04 PM (ybfXM)
12
Not being a firearms guy, I'm not understanding why you'd restrict the caliber of the weapon. If you want to be able to kill people to protect yourself, don't you want to be able to go ahead and kill 'em good and dead?
Someone please explain in non-technical terms.
Posted by: Doc Washboard at April 19, 2007 01:05 PM (nrafD)
13
Doc
Larger, high powered rounds tend to poke a nice inlet hole and large outlet hole and keep on going. (not safe in a crowded situation). Smaller, less powerful rounds tend to stay inside the target minimizing the danger to bystanders.
Posted by: markm at April 19, 2007 01:17 PM (hVOTO)
14
Not being a firearms guy, I'm not understanding why you'd restrict the caliber of the weapon. If you want to be able to kill people to protect yourself, don't you want to be able to go ahead and kill 'em good and dead?
Someone please explain in non-technical terms.
I'll make it very simple: the smaller caliber cartridges aren't much good, the larger ones will go clear the bad guy with enough force to kill those behind them. The bottlenecked cartridges typically offer the worst of both worlds, having underwhelming stopping power and a bad record of overpenetration.
The calibers of cartridges I advocated for have a long record (more than 50 years of proven performance for all but two of them, the .40 S&W and the .357 SIG, both newer rounds very popular with police) of being able to do the job properly.
The choice of frangible ammunition wasn't accidental either. While it offers much less chance of overpenetrating, frangibles such as Magsafes and Glasers are also by far the most lethal rounds made in situations where direct shots are dictated, like most justifiable self defense shootings.
Yes, it seems contradictory that frangibles can be the safest and deadliest bullets at the same time, but it is the truth of the matter.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at April 19, 2007 01:28 PM (9y6qg)
15
Brent, the second ammendment states clearly that the reason for the right to bare arms is the requirement for a well regulated militia. Anybody wishing to own any firearm should be required to prove reasonable proficiency with it at the very least. Also that requirement might reasonable be construed to cover the requirement for particular calibers and ammunition types.
But the point is moot. Yankees proposal applied to college campuses, not the general public and were reasonable. There are strict guidlines about who gets to carry in a courthose, too. I hope you're not proposing that anyone can carry any weapon anywhere. The 2nd ammendment just doesn't provide that right.
Posted by: iaintbacchus at April 19, 2007 01:43 PM (mYHGQ)
16
Why not .22s or like smaller calibers? You want the weapons being carried, don;t you? A .22 in a purse or pocket is better than a .45 at home. And plenty of people have been killed with .22s. They are also easier to hit with and since the ammo is so much cheaper, more practice --> more accuracy is possible. The lower recoil of a .22 or .25 (for that centerfire reliability) is also desirable for female weapons bearers. Speaking of expense, IIRC, Glasers cost the earth, and are not available to all comers.
As for bottlenecked rounds, I suppose you are worried about a flood of Mausers and Tokarevs? Yeah, those Broomhandle Mausers have no place in combat.
As for larger calibers, while they might be impractical for concealed carry, why would they be more dangerous with frangible ammo? The intimidation factor of a magnum pistol might also serve to defuse the situation.
As for the safety and consistency of weapons storage in dorms, where else could it be more easily regularized? Have gun safes like the safes in hotel rooms.
One thing that would be useful at schools like VT would be some more attention to emergency communications. VT uses the ROLM phone campus-wide. Nothing would be easier than to program them with alert codes, whether for "Pick up now for this recorded emergency message" or "GET OUT NOW!!!!!"
Perhaps the campus need not have been evacuated after the shooting, but I see no reason not to flood the Drillfield area with rapid-response teams, extra patrols, and floorwalkers in the dorms and classrooms. While I am not against student or prof carry (esp. during regular class hours, when there SHOULD be less drunkenness, and when most of these sorts of shootings seem to happen), I am not sure it is the only answer.
Posted by: nichevo at April 19, 2007 02:50 PM (Xq6yl)
17
You guys are sounding like liberals.
No, seriously... for years, liberals have been trying to establish guidelines not unlike the ones you describe above. We've been fought at every step of the way. Why the sudden 180?
Posted by: Josh Yelon at April 19, 2007 03:31 PM (S0W+J)
18
josh...
haven't you been paying attention...conservatives have become liberals. conservative tenants have been abandoned. republicans are now everything they used to despise. and the dems are the adults in the room. welcome to bush-world.
Posted by: jay k. at April 19, 2007 03:58 PM (yu9pS)
19
the reason for the right to bare arms is the requirement for a well regulated militia.
Yeah! No one is going to take away my right to short sleeves!
Sorry...
Posted by: dicentra at April 19, 2007 04:03 PM (JPs/+)
20
If you want to be able to kill people to protect yourself...
Its not about killing them. Its about getting them to stop doing what they were doing. If they happen to survive, I'm OK with that.
Posted by: Purple Avenger at April 19, 2007 04:04 PM (0FEBg)
21
I just excerpted and linked at Virginia Tech: The Day After The Day After The Day After. I think you're definitely on the right track looking for a compromise. The 18 year old Freshman I was in 1968 knew how to shoot but had no business at all having a firearm anywhere near the campus. The 26 year old Junior I was in 1976 was an entirely different person; he even had a pretty little ribbon from Uncle Sam for proving he could shoot straight. [Aside: Check out Dafydd's comments on unofficial militias here.] I think it would have made perfectly good sense for that 26 year old Junior, and a lot of others who'd been through similar experiences, to have the legal right to carry a concealed weapon any time, any where. You're also quite correct that firearms have no place in the dorm, for the reasons you state. The only place I'll quibble with you is over the minimum caliber required for licensing. Gotta go with nichevo's take on that; a P-22 in the hip pocket is better than a Glock at home. Tell me I'm wrong and I'll take your word for it but I think even the most concealable .380 on the market is still significantly harder to conceal than some pretty decent .22s.
Posted by: Bill Faith at April 19, 2007 05:06 PM (n7SaI)
22
I agree with Specter. Life is full of risks. Mankind has eliminated or greatly reduced trhe big risks in life. We have a plentiful and cheap food supply, and antibiotics and vaccines have vanquished many infectious diseases that uses to kill us by the thousands or even millions. Now we are trying to mitigate incredibly small risks and that is folly. We will never live in a risk free world. As for the hand gun at college debate, even if one is allowed to carry a handgun to class, who is going to want to lug all that weight around every day on the chance that sometime in the next 30 yrs, a shooter might appear somewhere on some college campus?
Posted by: feeblemind at April 19, 2007 05:51 PM (UVpu+)
23
I disagree with your ban on FMJ and other non-frangible ammo. If an assailant wears body armor, some FMJ ammo will take him out. Most will at least knock him down, enabling a better chance at a head or gut shot. Frangible ammo usually will not even knock down a body armor-clad assailant.
chsw
PS: According to Basharee Murtadd, Cho is being praised as a Muslim in several Arab websites.
Posted by: chsw at April 19, 2007 08:30 PM (WdHqZ)
24
Anyone who thinks that permitting students to carry weapons would have reduced the loss of life at Virginia Tech is a pathetic fool.
Think about the situation. You are sitting in a classroom and hear gunfire. You are armed, so you decide to go after the guy (or maybe you just prepare to defend the room you are in, but some hotshots who play too many video games will get all Rambo and try too be a hero).
Several other armed students enter the hallways in search of the gunman as well. None of these students have combat or police training and they have no way to coordinate efforts. As you turn a corner, you see a figure step from a classroom with a gun, and you open fire--killing your best friend (who shot straighter at the range, but not as quickly). Now several armed people are roaming the halls, trying to save the day, shooting each other out of fear, shock, or mistaken identity. It is simply stupid to think that a bunch of 21 year olds with no training could manage this sort of situation after passing a written test and poking some holes in cardboard.
A few days at a range once a year does not qualify people to conduct operations best left to soldiers and police officers. Adding a bunch of well-armed but untrained kids to a situation like this is a recipe for more tragedy, not less.
You clearly know a lot about calibers and muzzle velocities and such, but you know nothing about how weapons are used in the real world--or you at least have no clue how this would look in real life if a bunch of wannabe Rambos tried to stop a homicidal maniac.
Guns of any kind in the hands of amateurs is not a solution, it's a problem, but you have bought so deeply into the "he-man gun owner's club" that you overlook how this stuff works in real life. For every successful use of a handgun to foil a crime, dozens of children or spouses are accidentally shot by people who had no business owning a gun.
Think about it--this deranged young man, with demonstrable psychiatric problems, simply walked into a store with a credit card and bought a dangerous weapon. What part of fucked up and stupid don't you understand?
Posted by: R. Stanton Scott at April 19, 2007 09:31 PM (XNovw)
25
As guidelines for the schools only? I find these alright.
Specter:
I think I'd rather accept that sh&t happens, that there are risks in life, and hope that my number isn't up. As tragic as VT was, the odds of anything like this happening to a single person are probably worse than getting hit by a meteor from space.
As of about five years ago, there had been a single case of a human being hit by an asteroid. It was a little old lady, and she got a bruise.
Now, you ARE probably more likely to die in a plane crash than by a school shooting, or be the accidental victim of some loonie with a car. (Be the loonie drunk, deranged, high or a selection.)
Posted by: Foxfier at April 19, 2007 10:17 PM (zAx3d)
26
There is already a clear, established and verifiable method of deciding who can carry in campus. Its called a CHL or CCW. I had to receive 8 hours of classroom training, prove my proficiency in a range and submit to a background check before getting mine. Anything else is horse puckey. The mere thought that you would have the rigth to dictate what caliber ammunition I can carry in my legally carried firearm is specious. Registering the firearm with campus police only ensures that campus police can either reject my application or enact prohibitive fees.
r. stanton, you are an idiot. You have been watching too many movies. The armed citizens would either barricade and defend themselves in the classroom with their classmates or cover their retreat. Running into a hail of bullets would be no ones choice. The scenario would be the gunman walks into the classroom looking for victims and is greeted with lead. If necessary, students could be briefed on a plan of action in case of "deranged loner". Similar to fire drills. Everyone, barricade yourselves an those who are armed defend the rest.
Posted by: Rey at April 19, 2007 10:26 PM (KgGgV)
27
Foxfier,
Maybe the analogy was too specific, but you obviously understood the point. There is no way that we can "protect" ourselves from every possible, but statistically not-probable, event that might occur. It isn't possible if you want to live a life that has contact with other humans (contact other than across the ether...).
Posted by: Specter at April 19, 2007 11:40 PM (ybfXM)
28
CY, you sure have a lot of trollers on here that I doubt even read your post.
I noticed the "provide all students with weapons" argument voiced by liberals too, and they might get their way again.
I understand what you're saying about a middle ground.
I've repeatedly read the liberal argument that we must either ban all weapons, or the federal govt must provide all people with weapons. What a goofy idea.
That's like saying that if you're against banning all airplanes in America, then the federal government must buy everyone their own personal airplane.
The valid question isn't "should we allow firearms?", but rather "should we ban them, and how and why, and to what extent?"
Posted by: brando at April 20, 2007 12:44 AM (uZ35s)
29
Via Allahpundit's latest, this snippet from the WaPo:Kevin Granata had heard the commotion in his third-floor office and ran downstairs. He was a military veteran, very protective of his students. He was gunned down trying to confront the shooter.
I hope the people responsible for the fact he wasn't armed are extremely proud of the way they kept the VT student body safe.
Posted by: Bill Faith at April 20, 2007 12:49 AM (n7SaI)
30
Just get over it. Guns at a school or in the workplace have no place. Ain't never going to happen no way no how.
You have the right to have a safe and secure workplace or learning environment. To that end all security personnel should carry firearms and be fully trained in their use.
Posted by: J at April 20, 2007 06:12 AM (puiMc)
31
Or we could just follow Oregons example and allow CCW anywhere but courthouses. It's been that way for almost 15 years with no incidents on campus or anywhere. Proving once again that only careful law abiding citizens bother with CCW. Oregon only requires a pistol safety course - no range qualification.
Posted by: Airhog at April 20, 2007 08:27 AM (+g0g3)
32
J:
You're the one who needs to "just get over it."
The one place where schools are safe is in Israel, where the teachers and parents are armed and there aren't any attacks on the students. As for the workplace, I would guess that almost all workplaces in America - flyover America - have armed employees present. Perhaps openly or perhaps on a "don't ask, don't tell" basis, but present all the same.
And there are no attacks there, either. Only in the big liberal cities, where they know the population has been disarmed, do criminals range freely. Only in Post Offices and schools where law makes the victims powerless do we have shootings every month.
In places where citizens can and do carry, there are fewer shootings.....and lunatics like Cho are able to kill only one or two before they meet with the justice they deserve.
Concealed carry by responsible citizens is the path back to a safe and peaceful America, and the overwhelming majority of us know that.
Get over it.
Posted by: askmom at April 20, 2007 08:40 AM (Hfh0I)
33
I've been hearing about "background checks" my whole life, but I don't know what they encompass. Could someone please tell me what a firearm background check actually checks? Does it weed out insane people?
Posted by: Doc Washboard at April 20, 2007 08:40 AM (RdA1N)
34
Why not .22s or like smaller calibers? You want the weapons being carried, don;t you? A .22 in a purse or pocket is better than a .45 at home. And plenty of people have been killed with .22s. They are also easier to hit with and since the ammo is so much cheaper, more practice --> more accuracy is possible. The lower recoil of a .22 or .25 (for that centerfire reliability) is also desirable for female weapons bearers. Speaking of expense, IIRC, Glasers cost the earth, and are not available to all comers.
As for bottlenecked rounds, I suppose you are worried about a flood of Mausers and Tokarevs? Yeah, those Broomhandle Mausers have no place in combat.
.22s have weak stopping power, and there are literally dozens of pistol designs chambered for .380, 9mm, .40 S&W, .357 SIG and even .45ACP that are as small as .22 pistols. .25s often just really piss people off, and are typically chambered for "junk" guns. Anyone who recommends a .25 for defense should not be taken seriously.
As for bottleneck rounds, I'm not thinking much about ancient 7.65 rounds, but the most modern rounds, the 4.6mm and 5.7mm rounds designed for PDWs (personal defense weapons) that are also chambered for pistols, or will be. All of these rounds have questionable stopping power, as they tend to penetrate straight through a target with minimal damage without expending their energy, and keep right on going.
As for larger calibers, while they might be impractical for concealed carry, why would they be more dangerous with frangible ammo? The intimidation factor of a magnum pistol might also serve to defuse the situation.
Magnum pistols are typically too large for CCW, and have excessive muzzle blast and noise. Sure, they could work, but it's an academic argument, not a practical one.
Gotta go with nichevo's take on that; a P-22 in the hip pocket is better than a Glock at home. Tell me I'm wrong and I'll take your word for it but I think even the most concealable .380 on the market is still significantly harder to conceal than some pretty decent .22s.
Okay... You're wrong. ;-)
There are dozens of handguns designed for CCW as small or smaller and as light or lighter than the P22 or other .22 pistols. Kahr, Kel-Tec, Glock, Smith & Wesson, Springfield Armory and dozens of other manufacturers offer firearms in much more effective calibers.
I disagree with your ban on FMJ and other non-frangible ammo. If an assailant wears body armor, some FMJ ammo will take him out. Most will at least knock him down, enabling a better chance at a head or gut shot. Frangible ammo usually will not even knock down a body armor-clad assailant.
It depends on the threat level the body armor is designed for, but most modern vests of level IIIA will stop all conventional FMJ. You'll not pentrate most of it with FMJ, or hollowpoints, or frangibles. FMJ also posed a far greater risk to anyone on the other side of your target, whether the shooter is wearing body armor or not, and the stopping power is pathetic when compared to frangibles on a "clean" hit. See if you can Google up the Strassbourg (sp?) incapacitation tests. FMJ has no business in a high-density environment.
If you'd like to test your "knockdown" theory against frangibles, be my guest, but as the typically offer several hundred FPS more velocity in the trade off for bullet weight, and can typically be brought back on target faster for follow-up shots, I fail to see how they are any less effective. As ever, shot placement counts, and on a clean hit, the frangibles are proven more effective, and on a miss or a mishit, they less dangerous to others as they are going to fragment instead of bouncing around as a solid, lethal mass.
R. Stanton Scott, you don't know jack. Sorry.
In situations like this, the CCW carrier wouldn't go looking for a fight, he'd let the fight come to him. He knows that the shooter will have to come through the door, and he simple needs to be ready to fire once he confirms his target. You don't go looking for a fight, and people who are conscientious enough to carry firearms know this. Thans for providing the "movie" response, as wrong as Hollywood typically is.
Just get over it. Guns at a school or in the workplace have no place. Ain't never going to happen no way no how.
You have the right to have a safe and secure workplace or learning environment. To that end all security personnel should carry firearms and be fully trained in their use.
J, you don't know many police officers or CCW holders, do you? I've got many friends in uniformed PD in two states including SWAT officers, and I know several CCW carriers as well.
Your typical police officer is just familiar enough with his weapon to pass qualifying, and often, many only practice shortly in advance of that. The rest of the year, they often do not practice. Every CCW holder I've personally known goes to the range at least once a month, and takes the responsibility of carrying and shooting a weapon far more seriously than do my friends in the PD (with the exception of the SWAT officer, which you would hope would be true).
All the CCW carriers I know have far superior trigger discipline and are better shots than every police officer and sheriff I know in two states. Again, the SWAT officer is the exception. His discipline and accuracy is on par or slightly better than the abilities of the CCW carriers I know.
Quite frankly, you are less likely to be shot by a CCW carrier than a cop, and this is a statistical fact. Police officers are responders, showing up to a situation and having to adapt. Your typical CCW carrier who has to deploy his weapon is usually in the situation from the beginning, and knows who the threat is from the beginning. Who is a greater threat, the person who knows who the threat is, or the person arriving at the situation late?
Guns are used an estimated 2 million times a year in personal defense, most times without a shot ever having to be fired. Personal firearms have saved lives or stopped crimes at work and school when cops have not yet had the time to respond. This is a fact.
The average CCW carrier has a better understanding of the threat situation and better weapons discipline than your average police officer.
You can enjoy your ignorance of the facts and live in denial if you would like, but you are far safer with a CCW carrier around you.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at April 20, 2007 08:56 AM (9y6qg)
35
I agree with rey. If you have done what the state requires for a concealed carry permit that should be all the restriction that need be applied.
Doc Washboard, in my post I had assumed that someone in VA neglected to enter this nutjob's "temporary detention order" into the NICS database.
A post by Mrs Dutoit explained that since the courts use this technique to government fund shrinkage for the suicidal, that to qualify to be put in the database, the box marked "dangerous to others" must be checked off. I don't know where that came from, but it would lead me to think we need to get that procedure changed. From what I've heard the standard divorce lawyer trick of filing for a restraining order will get you in that database immediately.
Posted by: RRRoark at April 20, 2007 09:02 AM (iJo4X)
36
I've been hearing about "background checks" my whole life, but I don't know what they encompass. Could someone please tell me what a firearm background check actually checks? Does it weed out insane people?
It depends.
Federal NICS checks,as I understand them, check for flags such as criminal records, dishonorable discharges from the military, and mental health issues, and perhpas other issues. State background checks vary, but some require all of the above, and require pistol purchasers a higher level of scrutiny, and may ask for non-family character references as well.
It appears that Cho should have been disqualified, but Virginia did not apparently report his mental issues to the Feds.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at April 20, 2007 09:08 AM (9y6qg)
37
This is an excellent idea.
As part of your January registration, you indicate you are a licensed CHL Holder, you indicate you wish to carry on campus for the year, you pay the fee. The fee coves the cost of instruction plus the rental of the range.
The week before classes start, they hold a class for candidates ( students, employees, professors ) at a range near school. They cover the dos and donts and any other relevant material then test the class. They check out your weapon. You get to meet campus security. They cover procedures on emergencies. Describe any ROEs. When your school ID is issued, they put CHL on it.
You then have the right to carry on campus for the year.
Someone can come up with ROE ( Rules of Engagement ) and train the students on this to help prevent Blue on Blue in a meeting engagement. Since by definition only those in the class know them, this will prevent unlawful shooters from mimicking them. They can also cover evacuation procedures.
Same goes for School Districts. Parents who are CHLs go to a similar class sponsored by the School District.
Or, add a School Carry class to CHL and add another day of instruction that is run by the state.
Better yet:
All ROTC Cadets who are Seniors WILL get a CHL and WILL carry on campus. Make it part of their uniform.
I am not sure about the ammunition requirement. But it may be a good idea. To deal with this, I would have two sets of magazines - with my first round always being the school type, then just do an adminstrative load ( swap mags while in holster) when I entered campus.
Posted by: red river at April 20, 2007 09:29 AM (s6AOg)
38
I learned to shoot a shotgun at age 11, a rifle at the YMCA range, shot at an outdoor range at a summer camp the next year, and attended a high-school with an indoor range. I've been a shooter for 41 of my 52 years, and there hasn't been much of a change with firearms and ammunition. No one I ever knew shot-up a school or workplace, so how can guns be the problem? It was far easier then to buy guns and ammo!
Posted by: Tom TB at April 20, 2007 09:31 AM (2nDll)
39
Does it weed out insane people?
Supposedly yes, if they've been adjudicated mentally ill. Or at least that what the existing gun control laws call for.
Why not examine 27 CFR and educate yourself on this stuff? It might be an eye opener what is already (theoretically) in place.
Posted by: Purple Avenger at April 20, 2007 09:32 AM (0FEBg)
40
I don't know what "27 CFR" means. Point me in the right direction and I'll look at it.
Posted by: Doc Washboard at April 20, 2007 10:09 AM (nrafD)
41
Sweet Jesus. As always, the answer is more guns. Don't you find it odd that other industrialized nations are safer with fewer guns? Or that you've voluntarily surrendered your civil liberties to our idiot president rather than the black-helicopter UN one-world government we needed to arm ourselves against?
It's truly amazing that your answer to finding yourself in a hole is to keep digging.
I know, I know. We need to enforce the laws we already have, and give more guns to the good guys. Seems to working really well so far.
Posted by: OMG at April 20, 2007 11:20 AM (bX+hl)
42
Iaintbacchus, you need to do a tad more research on how the term militia is defined in the US Code Section 10. It basically breaks down into two parts, the organized and unorganized militia. The unorganized militia is every able-bodied citizen over the age of 18 who has not been convicted of a felony. PS: able bodied also covers "not in need of a mental hospital." Cho would have been right out.
Posted by: SDN at April 20, 2007 11:26 AM (CNYKS)
43
Good points, except trying to detail what types of magazines and ammunition is allowed. Once again it comes down to whether you trust the person or not, not the equipment.
The point about not allowing firearms in the dorms makes a lot of sense.
I attended college as a recently discharged army sergeant and lived off campus. I've never understood why college students are infantilized. It must be by people who were themselves immature when they were students.
Posted by: Mike S. at April 20, 2007 11:32 AM (tAo4S)
44
Doc Washboard,
27 CFR Part 178
Posted by: RRRoark at April 20, 2007 11:46 AM (iJo4X)
45
Not everyone has the temperament or firearms training to carry a weapon. Most don't. Just because you feel that it would be too dangerous for you to carry a weapon please do not project your inadequacies onto me. I've never been arrested, never been in a fight since puberty and I shoot at least once a month. I've never had a drug or alcohol problem. I shoot as well, if not better, than most law enforcement officers and I try my best to avoid trouble. I live responsibly. Why shouldn't someone like myself be allowed to protect ourselves, and you, if we feel competent in doing so.
Some of us feel that its our families, our communities and our society that we are responsible to protect. We are willing to take on the additional potential liability to do so. The alternative is a "it's not my job" mentality that leads to a lack in citizen ownership of the society. If you're o.k. with that fine, just don't expect me to buy into it.
Posted by: Mike S. at April 20, 2007 11:56 AM (tAo4S)
46
In-dorm firearms could not be secured properly and uniformly, and should not be allowed.
And thus, another kill-zone is created. Why NOT arm the RA's and such? At the very least, with Tasers.
Posted by: Bane at April 20, 2007 12:06 PM (emyIX)
47
CFR = code of federal regulations
Those are pointers to federal fire arms laws.
Posted by: Mike S. at April 20, 2007 12:07 PM (tAo4S)
48
While I like the idea of striking some kind of compromise between the lunacy of "gun-free" zones and the Gunfight at the OK Corral, I do think that this approach has one weak point. By giving the universities the power over who may or may not carryon campus, hey could establish a system that effectively was impossible to qualify under with the intent being to discourage people from carrying while appearing to endorse that right. Any additional qualifications for on-campus carry should be established by the state and apply equally to all colleges. In that way, you can ensure that only those people who are truly qualified are allowed to carry while making sure that no school arbitrarily abridges its students' rights.
Posted by: Steve L. at April 20, 2007 12:23 PM (hpZf2)
49
I think the overriding sentiment of those opposed to more guns is that the problem they're largely addressing is guns already circulating. We need guns because we have guns. As this proposal shows, escalation is the end result, meaning more guns in circulation, and the increased need to arm oneself against them.
The fallacy of the argument is demonstrated by the relative violence of American society compared to that of other industrialized nations.
Now, whether or not it's feasible to remove guns from circulation is certainly open to debate.
But those who support gun control are simply pointing out the obvious. The more guns, the more gun violence. They're not unpatriotic or passive victims. They're simply seeing the situation for what it is.
As I say, gun control might simply be barring the door too late. But it doesn't mean that the motives are erroneous, or that the analysis is faulty.
We are supposed to be the the most free nation, yet we're the only industrialized nation agonizing over this particular problem, leaving us to make statements about protecting our families and others via firearms, a stance more appropriate to Baghdad than the shining beacon on the hill.
Posted by: OMG at April 20, 2007 12:24 PM (bX+hl)
50
In other words, the only reason a proposal like this makes any sense to anyone here is because we allowed guns to get out of control in the first place.
This fundamental truth is something that those who oppose gun control need to face squarely.
Posted by: OMG at April 20, 2007 12:29 PM (bX+hl)
51
Large cities do not lack guns; in fact, many of them are awash in firearms because of the illegal drug trade and street gangs. Gun control is promoted by police and politicians in these cities because they are trying to reduce the number of weapons on the streets. They also use buyback programs and the like to reduce the number of guns.
It's also worth pointing out that according to the FBI's Uniform Crime Victimization survey, the liberal and degenerate Northeast had lower rates of violent crime and property crime in 2005 than the rest of the country. (See http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/05cius/data/table_03.html)
I don't know if there is a correlation between concealed carry and overall crime because I have not crunched the statistics, though. Anyone care to give it a try?
Posted by: Phranqlin at April 20, 2007 12:37 PM (WLhBy)
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And let us not forget that it was, by definition, liberals in the first place who framed our political philosophy and took up arms against the crown. And it was those liberal big cities who gave us many of the leading lights of our revolution. And it is liberals today who have most loudly decried the erosion of civil liberties in the name of security occurring today, civil liberties, such as habeus corpus, that our founding fathers were willing to die for.
To say that liberalism equals a persistent vegetative state is to be ignorant of history. It's cute, but it's inaccurate.
Remember, Jesus was a liberal, too.
Posted by: OMG at April 20, 2007 12:37 PM (bX+hl)
53
It's good to see a conservative at least making an attempt at rational discourse. I have long marveled at how other bloggers were able to insist with a straight face that armed students would have been able to stop this shooter by engaging in some sort of Chuck Norris-style shootout, while dismissing the fact that college students would be much more likely to shoot each other in some drunken frat party fight.
But I'm not sure how your restrictions on gun ownership among students are anything but arbitrary. Restricting guns to over-21 students would be about as effective as restricting alcohol to over-21 students has been. If some students have guns, it's just as good as all students having guns. Besides, many schools are 100% residential.
A more reasonable proposal (though one I'm still not sure I'd agree with) is to limit gun ownership to faculty (and perhaps require training). This means there'd be one armed person in every room. Maybe the prof in the first room would have been taken out before being able to do anything, but other faculty on the floor would have heard the gunshots and rushed to their aid.
Posted by: Alex at April 20, 2007 01:26 PM (mntO6)
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Alex,
I'm sorry but the argument really isn't about arming college students, it is about disarming adults that have gone through the process of obtaining permission to carry a concealed weapon nearly anywhere else, and demanding that they too, must be defenseless despite their efforts.
I went to college in the '60s and while we needed some growing up time also, I think that the colleges today are run by the most narcissistic and libertine of my generation and because of that, the behaviour of the students is worse than ever. Perhaps with the exclusion of the service academies and the state military colleges.
Posted by: RRRoark at April 20, 2007 01:40 PM (iJo4X)
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Alex,
Speaking as a former college professor, I think I've known more students I would trust with a firearm than professors. I'm sure there are more students with military training.
Some individuals will feel they can be disciplined enough to take on the responsibility of carrying a weapon. While many college students can't many can. Why should you make the decision on who can or cannot accept the responsibility?
Posted by: Mike S. at April 20, 2007 01:43 PM (tAo4S)
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OMG,
Ever fired a gun? Ever had any training in firing a weapon? Thought not. Fact is you are afraid of them. So be it. There are others that are not. So be it. Individual choice.
And your statement that other industrial nations with less guns have less gun-violence. Welll....Duh... But what about other types of violence? Have your correlated the other weapons that are available and how often they are used? Bet not.
Posted by: Specter at April 20, 2007 03:35 PM (ybfXM)
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Well, your idea is a little more restrictive than I'd prefer, but we can talk about it like reasonable gentlemen. But what I _really_ want to know is...
...what you got against God's own caliber (.45LC), son? ;-)
Okay, I see you said "comparable cartridge," and I don't know offhand what contortions one would have to go through to carry a Single Action Army (no durn derringers, thanks) concealed, but by gum, .45LC needs to be mentioned specifically. :-D
Posted by: Oldsmoblogger at April 20, 2007 04:12 PM (arEOF)
58
CY, obviously a real man-stopping caliber would be better. Nonetheless, I repeat that a weapon which is actually carried, which is shootable, and which is practiced with, has more valuable than a 1911, an M4, or a .50 BMG left at home.
Yes, you can get (for a pretty price!) a Kahr K9 or a scandium S&W five-shot, and they will fit in a pocket or purse *almost* as well as a .25 Beretta, a baby Browning or a Seecamp .32. Though they inevitably weigh more, esp. with ammo.
However, consider shootability. Not only is the ammo considerably more expensive, leading to less practice (especially with your mandatory Glasers at, what, $1/round?), but the weapon itself is a bucking bronco. Try firing some hot .38 +P+ (or whatever Glasers are loaded to) out of that fourteen-ounce snubby.
Muzzle blast anyone? Noise? Not to mention recoil? How do you think controlled pairs will work with that for a freshman girl or a 120-lb boy who got it for a commencement or going-away present and, with all good intent, has fired with it perhaps a dozen qualifying rounds, or none?
A .22 or a .25 will indeed kill a man. It won't do so in all circumstances, but will in some. It will certainly hurt. If you don't agree, please allow me to shoot you with one. I don't insist upon a head shot - but at ten feet in a classroom, I would feel better about that with a .22 I've shot off a box of Vipers with every weekend on the range, than with a .38 or a nine or a .45 that makes me flinch every time I pull the trigger.
(I like the .45 just fine, thanks, but everyone with a right and an incentive to carry is not like me.)
Obviously the .25 has little to recommend it over a .22 - except centerfire reliability. Bond, of course, was a fictional character. You might as well go with a .32 at least, at that point. However, anything I can hit with will at least help.
In Europe (yeah, yeah) they don't sneeze at the smaller calibers. Even in this country, the .32 used to be the police load till the Drug War kicked up stories about "cocaine-crazed Negroes" who didn't stop when "asked," hence the advent of the .38.
Some people sneer at the .38 or 9mm as with the Philippines experience when they decided on a .45 after the juramentados failed to lay down and die. Some people refuse to die when shot with .45s, for that matter. And body armor is a real threat, whether in the form of a Cho vest stuffed with magazines that will deflect a round, or Russian Kevlar worn by Chechen Beslan types.
Let's take your worst case scenario - Cho is shot with a .22 and does not drop dead right there. Fine, so instead of shooting everybody, he...shoots them twice? At least he may soon drop from blood loss, instead of going on till he runs out of ammunition. Or he may come to his senses.
Also, as a fellow like you knows, most of those 2 million defensive gun uses succeed without the need to fire a shot. The mere menace of the pointed weapon often suffices. Not everybody - killers no less than students - will keep coming in the face of a muzzle of whatever size.
In short...the perfect is the enemy of the good. If you were in the school and some scared kid passed you a .22 or a Raven .25, would you turn it down? I doubt it.
If you want to ban magnum calibers, FMJ, PDW rounds, there is some point to that (though I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for kids to bring 4.7 to class), but a nice .44 Magnum, say a Bulldog loaded with .44 Specials, or a .357 Mag loaded with .38s, is a popular choice.
I agree on no FMJs, personally, but what of a GI with no choice? Or a new weapon that needs a throat job and until then won't feed hollowpoints (or Glasers) reliably? Shot selection is key as always. (And at VT, at least, the walls are concrete and would do a fair job of holding in strays.)
Me? Probably a 1911 in .45 or 10mm Auto (is that OK?), worn in the small of my back (we are sitting at desks after all). IF I decided to have two or three pounds of iron on my belt that day - whereas the .22 would be more automatic (pardon the pun) to always have on hand.
Or one of those lovely Kahrs. But I can hit with a 1911 in .45. If you can't, the hell with you? I say no. Let some 98-pound cheerleader show us what she's got. It might be a nice surprise. If nothing else, it might scare the shooter off or disorient him so some linebacker in the next row can do his thing with bare hands or a desk.
BTW, one of Cho's weapons was a .22. Why bother, in his case? Why not a pair of wundernines?
Posted by: nichevo at April 20, 2007 04:15 PM (Xq6yl)
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Specter, you're a little off the mark. I grew up in London, England, and Oklahoma. I learned to shoot a .22 when I was a kid, and had a 30.06 on the bedroom wall when I was in high school. I know how to shoot and clean a gun, and have plugged my share of rattlesnakes, water mocassins. Shot a rabid possum in the front yard one night, too. Whoop de doo. I'm not at all scared of guns. Bought my boy a pellet gun this last Christmas, and when he shows me he can be responsible with that, I'll get him a .22.
I've also lived somewhere where guns are rather uncommon.
My basic point of view is that rifles and shotguns have a purpose: Whether it's hunting, taking care of varmints, or whatever.
To me, handguns have one true purpose: Killing people. Now obviously you can target shoot and I'm sure hunt with a handgun. But like an automatic weapon, it's really only intended for one thing by design. Any other argument is disingenuous.
What I'm commenting on more than anything (and the discussion here is rational if a bit surreal) is that fact gun violence happens because we have guns. And guns enable a lot more wackos and chickenshits to kill people than knives, brass knuckles, or 2x4s do.
So, everyone here says the rational thing is to arm oneself in response. I'm saying the more rational position is to take the handguns away. Talking past the problem because there's something holy about all firearms is why we find ourselves here debating how we can arm more citizens instead of how to get rid of the guns.
And it's fine if people admire different weapons, and so forth. Fine if they collect, and whatever. Me, I'm more into military history and aircraft. But to each their own. I don't think liking guns makes a person a nut.
A lot more is at work with Chos of the world than just having access to guns.
But guns are powerful killing tools. And the more you have in circulation, the more they're going to be used. It's that simple. And so, I say fewer is better. It's not a stretch.
Posted by: OMG at April 20, 2007 06:21 PM (bX+hl)
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OMG, I can adapt any Coast Guard approved flare gun to fire any pistol cartridge ever made. The way to stop the murderering Chos is to arm the good guys, plain and simple.
Posted by: Tom TB at April 20, 2007 07:13 PM (2nDll)
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27 CFR - Code of Federal Regulations, Title 27
Of special interest is 479.105 and how the media constantly distort what is and isn't a machine gun and inevitably fail to mention that production of new machine guns was halted in 1986.
Posted by: Purple Avenger at April 20, 2007 11:01 PM (kr/gV)
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CY: "R. Stanton Scott, you don't know jack. Sorry."
You know, it's a bit hard to know how to respond to this, because it's really pretty insulting. You seem to believe that because you spent time on a firing range and you can recite a bunch of specifications about guns and magazines you think you know more about how real people react in real crisis situations with firearms than a twenty year combat soldier.
Probably not. At any rate, if you really believe this, you must not have much faith in the Army that trained me. I don't know everything, but my profession is preparing people of college age to deal with these situations. I think I have a clue.
Sure, some armed students would wait for the fight to come to them, but many would not. Many would probably be as off-center as our VT gunman, and would acquire concealed carry permits and handguns in the express hope that something like this would happen, so they could be a hero.
This is a fact of life. Someone--especially young someones--would do something stupid. Without proper training, they would go off half-cocked, and if you think no one would try to be Rambo--that every one of the young students you think should be armed would behave as if they had years of police or military training, you are not really thinking. They would make the situation worse, guaranteed.
I am not a knee-jerk gun control nut. Like OMG, I understand that they have their place. You can't just call me a liberal and say that I have no clue what I am talking about just because I disagree with you. It's pretty silly to think that a few days at a range and a safety class qualifies people to conduct police or military operations. It literally takes years to properly train a police officer or a soldier. Average citizens may be able to defend their homes from intruders with handguns, though I would suggest that this is only possible if the intruder himself is untrained and nervous. But they cannot conduct clearing operations in what amounts to a combat situation without training and coordination of efforts, and they will not have the presence of mind to know that they are incapable of doing so.
Arming these students would simply not stop a gunman like this VT nutjob. I would likely just mean more people would be killed by a bunch of untrained yahoos running through the halls of a classroom building playing Rambo. This does not mean we should ban guns. But it means that the solution is not to arm everyone.
I spent twenty freakin' years slogging through the mud defending you while you were playing he-man by learning a lot about handguns and shooting them on weekends. You think I don't know jack?
I know Jack. We deployed together. And we're both calling BS.
Posted by: R. Stanton Scott at April 21, 2007 07:47 AM (qyR+z)
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please read the second amendment to the US Constitution
Posted by: mark derkin at April 21, 2007 05:55 PM (UgjxF)
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You mean the part where it says "well regulated?"
Posted by: R. Stanton Scott at April 21, 2007 10:47 PM (+dt3a)
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Way too complicated. Why not just remove the prohibition on concealed carry, but not the prohibition on keeping firearms in dorm rooms? That would handle almost all your requirements, just by virtue of already-existing state and federal laws: nobody who's under 21, nobody who can't pass a background check, and (in most states) nobody who can't pass a course and range test. What's with micro-managing all the fine details--especially when liberalized concealed carry hasn't turned out to be a problem anywhere it's been instituted?
Posted by: Kirk Parker at April 21, 2007 10:55 PM (95Q6L)
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April 18, 2007
Return Address: Ishmael
On MSNBC:
NBC News President Steve Capus said the network received the package in Wednesday morning's mail delivery and immediately turned the material over to FBI agents in New York. The FBI is assisting Virginia State Police in the investigation.
The package included a long, "rambling, manifesto-like statement embedded with a series of photographs," Capus said. The material is "hard-to-follow ... disturbing, very disturbing — very angry, profanity-laced," he said.
It does not include any images of the shootings Monday, but it does include "vague references," including “things like 'This didn’t have to happen,'" Capus said in an interview late Wednesday afternoon.
One of the photos.
It shows Cho with the murder weapons, the Glock 19 in his right hand, the Walther P22 in his left.
And in a
related article:
Among the materials are 23 QuickTime video files showing Cho talking directly to the camera, Capus said. He does not name anyone specifically, but he talks at length about religion and his hatred of the wealthy.
I'm watching the coverage on
NBC Nightly News with Brian Williams as they discuss the case. The return address was "Ishmael," as written on Cho's arm. Cho's comments spoke of himself in the past tense.
I'm not sure what to say about this at this point.
Update: Ace
glibly notes, "It really would have been a good idea to lock the campus down after the first shootings, eh?"
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
05:37 PM
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1
Well, now we can figure it probably wasn't a bulletproof vest he was wearing. Looks more like the ones I saw in Banana Republic in the late '80s.
Posted by: Jeff at April 18, 2007 06:16 PM (yiMNP)
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Not that there's any need at this point, but there's ocular confirmation that an extended mag isn't sticking out of that Glock.
Posted by: See-Dubya at April 18, 2007 06:17 PM (xuifx)
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Look carefully at the return address on that envelope. He wrote A. Ishmael, not Ismail
Posted by: crosspatch at April 18, 2007 09:19 PM (y2kMG)
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Question: Accdording to Islamic tradition, was Ibrahim asked by god to sacrifice his son like Abraham?
Posted by: BohicaTwentyTwo at April 19, 2007 08:02 AM (oC8nQ)
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Bohica,
islam's Ibrahim and the Abraham you speak of are one in the same.
Posted by: Greg at April 19, 2007 03:08 PM (S4Q5o)
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Despite Dishonest Media Hype, Va. Tech Shooter Used Standard Capacity Magazines In Shooting Spree
Thanks to Ace and Allah, I was led to a Washington Post article that explains that the shooter at Virginia Tech used standard capacity magazines during his rampage:
The Glock was used in two shootings, first in a dormitory and then in Norris Hall more than 2 1/2 hours later, officials said. A surveillance tape, which has now been watched by federal agents, shows Cho buying the Glock, sources said. Both guns are semiautomatic, which means that one round is fired for every finger pull.
Cho reloaded several times, using 15-round magazines for the Glock and 10-round magazines for the Walther, investigators said, adding that he had the cryptic words "Ismale Ax" tattooed on one arm. Although there are many theories, sources said, no one knows what it means.
As I stated
yesterday, the magazines used in the Virginia Tech massacre were of standard capacity. Let me take this opportunity to do what the media has failed to do, and explain the difference between standard capacity magazines, magazines manufactured during the crime bill, and extended magazines as the terms relate to pistols.
Standard Capacity Magazines
Standard capacity magazines are those magazines designed by the manufacturer to fit within the magazine well in the butt (handgrip) of a pistol. The capacity varies from pistol to pistol, depending on how the firearm was designed. Most modern 9mm pistols are designed to house between 13-17 cartridges in each magazine without noticeably protruding from the bottom of the pistol.
This is a picture of a Glock 19 with a standard capacity magazine of 15 rounds, as designed by the manufacturer.
"Crime Bill" Magazines
A provision of the 1994 "Crime Bill" was the so-called "assault weapon" ban, and part of the ban placed a limit of ten cartridges on any magazine manufactured after the law took effect (it did not ban the ownership, sale, or purchase of then of thousands if not hundreds of thousands of standard capacity and extended capacity magazines manufactured prior to the law's implementation). Under this law, any magazine with more than ten rounds was declared a "high capacity" magazine, even though the overwhelming majority of these magazines were actually standard-sized magazines as designed by firearms designers. "High capacity" was and is purely a political designation, not a practical one.
Typically, the exact same magazine body were used in pre-ban, ban, and post-ban magazines, with internal block limiting the number of cartridges that could be loaded into magazines produced during the ban period (It was also relatively simple to remove the block from many magazines and return them to their standard capacity with a simple replacement of parts if one wanted to, but with so many pre-ban magazines for sale, few saw the need).
This is a picture of a Glock 19 with a AW-ban capacity magazine of 10 rounds.
Actually, it's the exact same picture, but as the ban and standard magazines still used the same magazine body, you wouldn't be able to tell the difference in the pistol's profile anyway.
Extended Magazines
As they relate to pistols, extended magazines are those magazines that extend perceptibly beyond the butt (handgrip) of the pistol. Extended magazines do not always mean high capacity magazines. Ten-round magazines for 1911-style .45ACP pistols were quite legal to manufacture between 1994-2004, but they still extended quite a bit beyond the pistol's natural butt.
This is a picture of a Glock 18 (the Glock 19's larger, machine pistol cousin) with an extended 33-round magazine that would fit the Glock 19.
Brian Ross of the "Blotter", ABC News, and Keith
Olbercavemann were factually wrong is when they stated or implied that the 1994 law in any way restricted the sale, purchase, or ownership of
any of the above magazines.
The law simply did not do what they claimed, and tens of thousands--perhaps hundreds thousands of such magazines--were bought and sold via retail purchase in stores, catalogs, and online during the 1994-2004 period. All the 1994 law did was ban the
manufacture of magazines greater than ten rounds during that time period, which ultimately was a trivial matter. While the cost of some standard and extended magazines did rise considerably during the ban, they were never in short supply because so many magazines were already on the market.
Others and I have also noted that the size of the magazine also has very little to do with the carnage at Virginia Tech on Monday. It takes most shooters between 1-3 seconds to change an empty magazine for a full magazine, and there was no indication that Cho was rushed, especially as he had a second gun, presumably with a full magazine already loaded, at hand.
There are some forces in the media that are using this tragedy in Blacksburg to try to push a political agenda, and they are will to twist the truth or even lie to you in order to push it.
It's a sad, sick fact, but that is the media we have.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
03:52 PM
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1
I gave up keeping records of all the inaccuracies that the MSM reports regarding firearms. Somehow, my guns don't make noise, alter magazine capacity, or kill anyone when I go to sleep.
Posted by: Tom TB at April 18, 2007 05:14 PM (2nDll)
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Well, something went wrong. Whatever the magazine capacity was, this guy wound up killing a lot of people with a firearm.
The thing that surprises me about the news coverage is the idea that this can be blamed on the fact that this campus was a "no firearm" zone. I didn't know that there was a "fully armed" option when it came to college campuses.
Let's all cast our minds back to college, shall we? I'm willing to bet that every one of us was, to some degree or another, a horse's ass back then. Do we want fully-armed horse's asses on our college campuses? It seems like a bad idea to me.
The idea that more weapons on campus would solve this problem is counterintuitive. This guy was on campus, and he had a weapon, and he killed 33 people.
Posted by: Doc Washboard at April 18, 2007 05:30 PM (nrafD)
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"I didn't know that there was a "fully armed" option when it came to college campuses."
Here in Utah it is legal, if it is not a private school. Nobody has been shot at the University of Utah, yet it is legal for people with a concealed carry permit to have one there.
Posted by: BobG at April 18, 2007 05:59 PM (UMWra)
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As always, nice job keeping the fact straight.
I like the idea of an armed populace, but I agree with Doc on this one. Were people at my university cruising around with guns in their bags? I certainly hope not. When I was working in Afghanistan, we weren't allowed to be anywhere near guns when we were drinking booze. I thought this was a really good idea.
The problem I have with relaxed gun laws is that it assumes everyone is responsible enough [or in a responsible state of mind] to carry one, which is just as naive as assuming a criminal won't violate a gun-free zone.
Posted by: paully at April 18, 2007 06:03 PM (75YCX)
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The idea that more weapons on campus would solve this problem is counterintuitive
So were the notions that the earth is round and revolves around the sun.
Posted by: Purple Avenger at April 18, 2007 07:20 PM (0FEBg)
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I see your point, Avenger, but don't see it as the clinching argument that someone else might.
Of all the guys who we know had firearms on the VT campus the other day, 100% wound up using those firearms to go on a killing spree.
Yes, the data set is small, but still...
College kids have their heads up their asses. They get angry for no reason. They get too drunk. They make bad decisions that they regret for years to come. I'm speaking from experience here.
The fact that they're not supposed to carry firearms around with them undoubedly keeps a lot of them from doing so, and if you're not carrying a weapon, you can't use it to kill anyone. Giving wet-behind-the-ears asshats (again: speaking from experience) permission to carry a gun would, it would seem, lead only to more deaths.
Posted by: Doc Washboard at April 18, 2007 08:30 PM (yfcWb)
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OK, Doc. I'll take your bait.
What about staff and graduate students? And. . .
How does attendance at an institution of higher learning abrogate the 2nd Amendment?
Posted by: MCPO Airdale at April 18, 2007 09:17 PM (ZKng9)
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I'd rather that nobody on campus be carrying weapons except sworn peace officers. I know that this definitely goes against the grain of 99.99999% of CY readers, but I'm unrepentant on this point.
Posted by: Doc Washboard at April 18, 2007 10:16 PM (yfcWb)
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But Doc,
Passing more laws against guns is counterintuitive also. Picture it this way - A local town here passed an ordinance banning guns in public buildings. This law was passed in response to one of the shootings at a business place in the last few years - can't remember which one. Do you really think that someone who has decided to go into one of those buildings - someone who has decided to commit murder - is going to worry about a town ordinance against taking the gun into the building?
No. The are only two options here. One is to get on with life and accept that there are risks involved. The other is to never, ever leave your home. Of course there will be modifications necessary. The first is to make sure that your home is completely secure - bomb/bullet/radiation/biologic/chemical proof - including doors and windows. Have a Phalanx System and a Patriot battery on the roof in case someone decides to launch a missile at you. Order all your supplies by internet and monitor all deliveries. Never, ever open your door to anybody at any time. All supplies must be scanned with detection equipment to make sure they are safe. Simple, right?
I'd prefer to accept that there are risks.
Posted by: Specter at April 18, 2007 10:27 PM (ybfXM)
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Doc, if you want to be a victim that's your choice. Guess what? you don't get to make that choice for me. Currently, I don't carry in public. Once I've gone through the training required for a CHL here in TX, and I'm working on that right now, I will be.
Posted by: SDN at April 19, 2007 12:13 AM (TIw0n)
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I'm sure ABC will fess up to lying about that about the same time as AP marches Jamail in front of a camera. I excerpted and linked at Virginia Tech: The Day After The Day After The Day After.
Posted by: Bill Faith at April 19, 2007 03:34 AM (n7SaI)
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The fact that they're not supposed to carry firearms around with them undoubedly keeps a lot of them from doing so
Why is it that somehow gun control laws are viewed as a magic (yet always unproven, and oft failed) panacea by liberals, but drug control laws aren't?
Posted by: Purple Avenger at April 19, 2007 05:40 AM (0FEBg)
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To some extent, I see Doc Washboard's point about the overall level of maturity and sound judgement existing in the mindset of a majority of 17 to 23 year old college students. However, I would suggest that if RA's (that's Resident Advisors) in dorms, graduate students, and instructors above the age of 21 who get the neccessary training and background checks required to obtain a concealed carry permit were allowed carry on campus, the mere possibility of meeting armed resistance may discourage someone like Cho from carrying out mass carnage. The certainty that no one could respond in force enabled the body count to reach 32.
Posted by: SicSemperTyrannus at April 19, 2007 07:46 AM (Mv/2X)
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Good info. I learned something. I bought a Ruger P89 9mm semi-automatic back in 1998. It came with 10 round capacity magazines. It didn't have a block, but the plastic bottom of the mag was larger, making less room for rounds. There was no way to modify it to make room for 15 rounds. It never really bothered me, but its nice to know that I could get the 15 round mags, if I wanted, for now.
Posted by: BohicaTwentyTwo at April 19, 2007 08:06 AM (oC8nQ)
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Specter, I can't speak for all liberals, but I can try to relate what I posted to what you replied.
It's true that people are going to do drugs, just as people carry weapons, whether or not it's against the law. My point--and I tried to be careful to phrase it this way--was that the deterrent of possible punishment would keep some folks from carrying, just as I know for a solid fact that drug laws keep some folks from using. Some's better than none.
I definitely see what you're saying, but my feeling is that we need to get what we can get, even if it's not everything we want.
Posted by: Doc Washboard at April 19, 2007 08:23 AM (rPCQM)
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Oops, sorry; that last post was supposed to go to Purple Avenger.
Posted by: Doc Washboard at April 19, 2007 08:26 AM (rPCQM)
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"Of all the guys who we know had firearms on the VT campus the other day, 100% wound up using those firearms to go on a killing spree."
Small point, but I thought the campus police were armed (but then, that information came from the MSM so, there you go).
Chicago's Mayer Daley invoked the tragedy to call, yet again, for bans on "assault weapons" and 50 caliber firearms. Daley, the weapons used in that tragedy were neither automatic nor 50 caliber. But thanks for showing us you don't really care about doing anything useful as long as you get to ban more firearms.
Posted by: DoorHold at April 19, 2007 12:19 PM (o/kpn)
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Funny how everyone just assumes college students aren't old enough to carry weapons yet if they are over 18 they are legally allowed to own them. Somehow these immature people can vote, drive a car (the deadliest weapon in the world), and enter into binding contracts. These same 18 year olds can don a uniform and fight for our country with guns but somehow when they are out of uniform they can't be trusted. What is really the issue here?
For all of you who say that you don't trust me to make the right choice when I carry a gun, welcome to a free society. Yup, that is right, a free society is a dangerous society. Bad things can happen when you give people choice and that is why we have laws to punish them. You are trying to pre-judge people to make yourself "feel" safe. In the end, it is only a rosy feeling you get not real saftey.
You want me to be disarmed because you don't trust me. Maybe you trust me but not "that other guy", whatever that means. HE looks like a punk rocker, maybe his hair is too long, perhaps he drives too fast, whatever the excuse is it is BS. Perhaps the real issue is that you don't trust yourself. You can't see yourself carrying a gun and making the right choices and therefore you try to pigeon hole others into your narrow-minded view of what is right.
Sorry guys, I'm not going to be executed because you are scared of what might happen when a citizen legally carries a firearm. If you really believe what you are saying then you wouldn't drive a car on public streets. You are far more likely to be killed there because of someone's incompetence than by me or the many other Americans who legally carry a weapon. Trust has absolutely nothing to do with restricting my right to self-defense. You want to be executed in a gun-free zone, fine, don't presume to choose how I die.
Bad things can happen when men are presented with freedom. That is the cost we all have to bear. You are willing to trade your freedom for a security blanket that was made by the same guys who made the Emperor's new clothes. Just like at VT, they might have felt safe with their no-gun zone, but in the end they weren't. I'll take the risk and the freedom to live like an honest man any day of the week and twice on Sunday.
Posted by: Deavis at April 19, 2007 01:03 PM (GvPR/)
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Striking the Balance
SWAT teams wearing body armor and carrying machine guns stormed an administrative building at Virginia Tech this morning:
Virginia Tech students still on edge after the deadliest shooting in modern U.S. history got another scare Wednesday morning as police in SWAT gear with weapons drawn swarmed Burruss Hall, which houses the president's office.
The threat of suspicious activity turned out to be unfounded, said Virginia State Police spokeswoman Corinne Geller said, and the building was reopened. But students were rattled.
"They were just screaming, 'Get off the sidewalks,'" said Terryn Wingler-Petty, a junior from Wisconsin. "They seemed very confused about what was going on. They were just trying to get people organized."
One officer was seen escorting a crying young woman out of Burruss Hall, telling her, "It's OK. It's OK."
To the best of my knowledge, Cho Seung-Hui killed himself with a bullet to the head on Monday morning after killing 32 innocent people and wounding many more, and he is still dead. Based upon thousands of years of human experience with one notable exception some 2,000 years ago, he is forecast to remain deceased.
So why is Virginia Tech still blanketed with heavily-armed and understandably tense police officers, many of which are dealing themselves with the aftershocks of trauma from the largest mass shooting by an individual in U.S. history, just two days ago?
Part of the reason is to provide the public perception that something is being done and that the tragic massacre of two days ago will not be repeated on this ravaged, grief-stricken campus, a campus already awash in disbelief, shock, and fear. The officers are meant to provide psychological security as much as they are to provide physical security.
But as this morning's frightening false alarm showed, sometimes an overwhelming police presence in the wake of a traumatic event can instead lead to situation that increases or extends fears.
Today, Virginia Tech may very well be the safest college campus in the United States, but the massive display of force by police comes with its own costs.
Heavily-armed and no doubt highly-stressed first responders chasing ghosts and rumors are adding trauma to still fragile students like the young woman noted in the story above.
While a heightened police presence is still warranted to deal with the inevitable false alarms and to help provide a feeling of security, it is two days too late for the need of heavy body armor, and no current reason for police to walk around campus with tactical carbines. The time for such things has passed. On this day and in days forward, badges and "Smokie the Bear" covers should be enough. Enough, but not too much.
There is a balance, an equilibrium, an illusion of normalcy that must be regained for healing to begin.
Hopefully the officials at Virginia Tech will be able to find this equilibrium sooner, rather than later.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
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See also: "horse" "barn door" "instructions for closing."
Posted by: Jeff at April 18, 2007 11:29 AM (yiMNP)
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It's all about making people "feel safe", rather than actually BE safe. Clearly it went a little off the rails, since armed men in black don't make me feel safe no matter whether they have badges or not.
Posted by: Security Theater at April 18, 2007 11:33 AM (YqhCb)
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Giving Dumb a Chance
On the off chance that the ABC News staff of "The Blotter" is just ignorant of their subject matter and not nakedly pursuing a political agenda, I sent the following comment to their latest blog entry on the Virginia Tech shooting, in efforts to clear up a previous post that was patently false.
I'm still waiting for a retraction of the completely false story posted to the Blotter, "Lapse of Federal Law Allows Sale of Large Ammo Clips."
Ross and Hughes falsely stated that "High capacity ammo clips became widely available for sale when Congress failed to renew a law that banned assault weapons."
The AW Ban provision of the 1994 Crime Bill in no way restricted the sale, purchase, or ownership of magazines of more than ten rounds during the 1994-2004 period, and only restricted the sale of high-capacity magazines manufactured after this date. Tens of thousands, if not hundreds of thousands of high-capacity magazines were bought and sold during the 1994-2004 time period in retail stores, via catalog sales, or online, and all sales and purchases were completely legal.
Nor were Ross and Hughes correct when they said, "Web sites now advertise overnight UPS delivery of the clips, which carry up to 40 rounds for both semi-automatic rifles, including 9mm pistols, and handguns."
These magazines were always available for legal purchase online (or anywhere else) since the World Wide Web was created. Their false implication that sales only began after 2004 is laughable, and completely false.
The blog entry was not only incorrect, it was deceptive, and showed a basic ignorance of the AW Ban and magazine provisions of the 1994 "Crime Bill."
ABC News and "The Blotter" owe their readership an apology and a retraction for this blatantly incorrect and perhaps purposefully fraudulent blog posting.
The media is allowed to occasionally make mistakes, but responsible journalists admit and correct their mistakes. It only remains to be seen if Brian Ross, The Blotter, and ABC News are responsible journalists.
NOTE: This comment has been cross-posted as part of a blog entry at http://confederateyankee.mu.nu/
I somewhat doubt that Brian Ross and ABC News has the integrity to issue a retraction of their inaccurate and agenda-driven post, but at least I'll be able to show that I made the attempt to have them correct the record.
Update: I fought the dumb, and the dumb won. My comment was deleted by ABC News employees moderating "The Blotter." Obviously, pursuing a political agenda is far more important to ABC News than is actually reporting facts.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
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Looks like you got deleted.
Posted by: Buddy at April 18, 2007 11:00 AM (aGQVo)
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Well said and pure fact. Of course MSNBC would delete it. Their agenda is not news or facts because liberals own them. Their website and station is a joke. How can people believe the lies they spew? Keep up the good work. Love your blog and articles!
Posted by: Trisha at April 18, 2007 12:45 PM (LFtoQ)
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CY,
Someone by the name of "blah" re-posted your comment . It's visible now.
Posted by: CTD at April 18, 2007 01:31 PM (RurGt)
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I went through the comments and I see your comment posted at 2:05pm April 18. If it was deleted it's back now, as of 4:21pm April 18 Eastern time.
Posted by: Rod at April 18, 2007 03:20 PM (ScvHp)
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Rod, you saw the same comment posted to the other thread. You'll also note others complaining that their comments explaining that Ross was wrong had been deleted as well.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at April 18, 2007 03:54 PM (9y6qg)
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Is this something the FCC might be interested in? Maybe we can have their license threatened. Posting lies and deleting comments that exposed them, although on a website instead of the air could be going against the terms of their license.
Posted by: ScottG at April 18, 2007 06:21 PM (WbPvA)
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If deception were an FCC violation, CBS would be off the air. Good luck, ScottG.
Posted by: w3 at April 18, 2007 07:19 PM (9TtwK)
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At some point we crazy gut nut mchalliburtonchimpybushitlerrethug...slap,slap...sorry, got off track.
We need to explain to the leftoid idiots that there will never be effective gun control for two reasons. 1. original sin. 2. Machinists.
My dad has little of the first but could make a gun from metal blocks and a few fairly primitive tools. He vas trained as a metalsmith in ze third Reich. He could make an m-16 from the block of a 53 chrysler, some files and a black and decker drill.
Ever see documentaries with Pakistani gunsmiths making ak-47 knockoffs from scratch with a hand forge?
And by 'explain' I meant hit them with bricks until they cry uncle and claim to understand. They will not of course ever really understand.
Posted by: Fred Z at April 18, 2007 09:57 PM (Pg/wX)
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Confederate Yankee meet Brian Ross. The Blotter blatantly lied about the Mark Foley story and I called them on it. Happy to see you taking them to task for their outright lying.
Posted by: Wild Bill at April 19, 2007 10:36 AM (Mydv6)
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I hate to break it to you, but anything that was contrary to the point that they were trying to push got deleted. Also, I think that you'll find that ABC News had an agenda going in. On the first night's coverage, they had a piece on high capacity magazines and possessoin of assault rifles which was done by a Mr. Jake Tapper. For those who don't know, Mr. Tapper started his career as an intern and later as an employee of Handgun Control Inc., currently doing business as The Brady Campaign. I posted a complaint with ABC News but as expected, I never recieved a reply from them.
In the end, the gungrabbers aren't interested either in balanced reportage or honest discourse. I did take some comfort however in noting that the pro-gun posts outweighed the antigun posts by roughly four to one.
In a real sense, rather than dealing with the actual problem, which is that police protection in the real world is a fraudulent concept, ABC prefered to help restart the Cold Civil War that we all suffered under from 1988 to 2000. And in any war, including this one, the first casualty will always be the truth.
In the end, I think that in addition to defending the Second Amendment we need to attack far more often, the thinly disguised advocacy which is frequently substituted for the truth, coming from the untruthfully named, Main Stream Media. We aren't going to win this as long as they can lie and not get called on it. The same shock that was delivered when Dan Rather was caught during the Swiftboat Incident needs to be repeated, both early and often.
Posted by: Michael Shirley at April 19, 2007 10:44 AM (DV59A)
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So Simple, Even a Journalist Can Do It
I've roundly criticized ABC's Brian Ross for his blatant falsehoods regarding the "assault weapons" ban provision of the 1994 Crime Bill, but it appears that not only has ABC News refused to retract these false claims, it appears that the lie is spreading among other members of the ignorati.
Enter one of the least, shall we say, "mentally agile" disciples of this profession at MSNBC.
Allahpundit Ian has the video of Olbermann parroting of Ross' falsehoods.
At least one of the weapons used by the shooter is believed, as we said, to be in nine millimeter semi-automatic pistol, which would be like this one, with a clip designed to hold more than 10 shots. Clips like those were banned under the Assault Weapons Law of 1994, but Congress and President Bush allowed that law to expire more than two years ago.
I'll try this once more, making it so easy that even journalists can understand it.
High-capacity magazines were never outlawed. They were never illegal to own, buy or sell, person-to-person, in retail stores, catalogs, or online.
Part of the Violent Crime Control and Law Enforcement Act of 1994 was the so-called Federal Assault Weapons Ban, which was a ban on certain cosmetic features found on some firearms. It was, in fact, nothing more than "scary-looking gun" law.
Banned "assault rifles" were easily made legal again by manufacturers who merely had to remove the offensive accessories, such as flash hiders, pistol grip-style stocks, or bayonets lugs, none of which affected the rate of fire, accuracy or velocity of the firearms in question. Older firearms arbitrarily (and inaccurately) deemed assault weapons by the ban that were already in the market were grandfathered in, and the new "post-ban" assault weapons sold quite well during the length of the so-called ban.
Another provision of the ban was a ban on the
manufacture of "large capacity ammunition feeding devices," which the law defined, again arbitrarily, as those rifle and pistol magazines that hold in excess of then rounds of ammunition.
Where Ross, ABC New, Olbermann and others are dead wrong is when they attempt to imply that the ban on the manufacture of new magazines of more than ten rounds was a ban on all high-capacity magazines. This is patently false.
There are literally hundreds of thousands, if not millions of firearms in America primarily designed to use magazines of more than ten rounds. Most of these firearms were sold by the manufacturer with at least two magazines, and there was and is a robust industry for magazines for these firearms. By the time the "large capacity ammunition feeding devices" stipulation of the 1994 AW Ban provision was implemented into law, there were literally millions of such magazines in America, and hundreds of thousands more available for retail and commercial sale.
The AW Ban did not make owning nor selling such magazines illegal. As a result, magazines of more than ten rounds were available for uninterrupted sale during the entire ten-year life of the AW ban. It was never illegal to own, sell, or buy such magazines. All the ban actually did was to spur interest in purchasing such magazines, and manufacturers literally had to work overtime to meet anticipated demand prior to the implementation of the law.
As a result of supply and demand, once the "ban" (which it never was in any meaningful way) went into effect, some magazines increased significantly in cost, and some were even in relatively short supply, but they were always available in retail stores, catalogs and online, and they were always legal to own, buy, or sell.
I'm growing increasingly tired of journalists such as Brain Ross, ABC News, and Keith Olbermann spouting falsehoods, when they have obviously been too lazy--or perhaps just to agenda-driven--to simply read the law itself, or even point a web browser in the direction of Google.
These so-called journalists have forfeited their credibility by refusing to address the truth, and instead, decided to foist upon an unsuspecting public, blatant falsehoods to further a political agenda.
We've come to expect our media to be biased. We shouldn't have to deal with them blatantly, recklessly, and repeatedly lying to further their private policy beliefs.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
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I can't believe these guys get away with blatenly lying to further their political agenda. It sickens me. Also I guarantee that most people are too dumb to know the truth so they now have one more reason to hate Bush, because the tragedy in VA was clearly his fault. Insane and ridiculous.
Posted by: Justin at April 18, 2007 08:59 AM (NiTuu)
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Under the old law, the Glock Cho bought would have been limited w/r/t the number of rounds it could hold. He could not have bought a brand new Glock with a high capacity magazine. So if that's the only point, it may not be fair to call it a lie. Is it imprecise reporting? Yes. A blatant lie? eh. That may go a little too far.
Having said that, even under the old law, there's nothing that would have prohibited Cho from buying 10, 15, 20 or even 50 10-round clips. When he's shooting unarmed people trapped in classrooms, I'm not sure that the body count would have differed at all.
Of course, even if the old law was still in effect, he could have bought a used gun manufactured before the "ban" which is the point you're making. He could have also bought a bunch of the old clips, I guess. Not sure if the old clips fit into the "postban" guns. But I agree that the whole story is silly. Just not sure it's worth it to go ballistic and call them liars. It takes effort to build a lie. I think they're just dumb and not thinking things through.
Posted by: Jimmy Page at April 18, 2007 12:18 PM (5HveT)
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Jimmy, your comments are incorrect.
Any Glock 19 purchased at any point in history (before, during, or after the ban) would not be limited in the number of bullets it could contain, and as many guns stores typically carry pre-ban spare magazines for Glocks and other popular pistols, he could have purchased the 15-round magazine the pistol was designed to operate with on the spot if it did not already come with them.
The magazine wells on Glocks were never modified to force them to take different (lower capacity)magazines. From the first Glock 19 off the assembly line to ones produced today, they can all use the same magazines.
And it is magazines, not clips. Clips are narrow strips of sheet metal (typically spring steel) used to load magazines. Clips go into magazines, magazines go into firearms. The two are not the same thing nor are they interchangable, no matter how many times the media screws that up, as well. Each has a distinct purpose.
I'm quite comfortable calling them liars when they are, in fact, spreading complete falsehoods, and manually deleting comments pointing out these falsehoods and pushing for a retraction.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at April 18, 2007 12:42 PM (9y6qg)
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Actually, President Bush cannot be blamed for letting the ban expire. He clearly said, multiple times, that he was going to sign the bill when it made it to his desk. It never got out of Congress.
It's one of the many, many things that he can legitimately be criticized about.
Posted by: Carter at April 18, 2007 01:13 PM (AfORa)
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The Democrat 5th Column will milk this until some Conservative commentator steps and calls them a liar. At that time they will call for the resignation of the columnist for being uncivil, rather than calling for the ouster of the liars in the MainBlame Media.
Meanwhile, the murderer, Chokes on Wee, will become the poster boy for gun control.
Since he claims "the rich" made him do it, maybe we should ban Hollywood millionaires.
Posted by: TJ's Anti-contrarian Blog at April 18, 2007 06:49 PM (Luhuc)
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Jimmy, Clips hold. Magazines have springs to present the cartridges for loading.
Posted by: Phillep at April 18, 2007 09:53 PM (+cSvZ)
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April 17, 2007
Iranian Weapons Intercepted On the Way To the Taliban
Well, it looks like the mullacracy is willing to supply just about any insurgency, doesn't it?
U.S. forces recently intercepted Iranian-made weapons intended for Taliban fighters in Afghanistan, the Pentagon's top general said Tuesday, suggesting wider Iranian war involvement in the region.
It appeared to be the first publicly disclosed instance of Iranian arms entering Afghanistan, although it was not immediately clear whether the weapons came directly from Iran or were shipped through a third party.
Gen. Peter Pace, chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, said that unlike in Iraq, where U.S. officials say they are certain that arms are being supplied to insurgents by Iran's secretive Quds Force, the Iranian link in Afghanistan is murky.
"It is not as clear in Afghanistan which Iranian entity is responsible, but we have intercepted weapons in Afghanistan headed for the Taliban that were made in Iran," Pace told a group of reporters over breakfast.
He said the weapons, including mortars and C-4 plastic explosives, were intercepted in Kandahar province in southern Afghanistan within the past month. He did not describe the quantity of intercepted materials or say whether it was the first time American forces had found Iranian-made arms in that country.
If accurate, this seems to throw cold water on claims that Iran wouldn't support Sunni groups as willingly as they would Shiite militias.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
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this seems to throw cold water on claims that Iran wouldn't support Sunni groups as willingly as they would Shiite militias.
It's hard to believe that Iran would support Iraqi Sunnis at least, given that Iraqi Sunni are terrorizing Iraqi Shia.
On another note, we've discussed Fox news vs. other MSM recently. Here's another study that I just happened upon. Again Fox scores badly in it.
Posted by: Lex Steele at April 17, 2007 04:20 PM (/yN81)
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Bomb, bomb, bomb
bomb, bomb Iran
Bomb Iran
Iran. I bombed. Iran.
Posted by: Ali Blabba at April 17, 2007 05:15 PM (Cy7OH)
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Lex, on the Fox news poll. At least it said that "there were more Democrats in the least aware group". See most Dems are oblivious to whats really going on. They just care about how major events make them "feel". Don't forget, never let facts get in the way, as long as you feel good. People need to realize that sometimes we have to do things that make us feel like crap. Yes its true some people have to sacrifice their lives, but the democrats wont sacrifice a good feeling.
Posted by: Justin at April 17, 2007 06:58 PM (NiTuu)
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"It's hard to believe that Iran would support Iraqi Sunnis at least, given that Iraqi Sunni are terrorizing Iraqi Shia."
Exactly. Doesn't pass the smell test. Shiites giving military aid to Sunnis, and the Taliban at that? Extremely dubious.
Posted by: Arbotreeist at April 17, 2007 07:30 PM (N8M1W)
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Step 1: Form fake Muslim insurgent group with stated aim of overthrowing U.S.
Step 2: Accept weapons from Iran.
Step 3: Redistribute weapons to U.S. military forces.
Step 4: Throw massive kegger with money saved on military expenditures.
Posted by: Doc Washboard at April 17, 2007 07:56 PM (31DQQ)
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Lex, what about this sentence?
Fox topped only network morning show viewers.
Do you happen to know if there are more people watching FoxNews or the network morning shows?
Posted by: MikeM at April 17, 2007 08:03 PM (myTC8)
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Justin,
Lex, on the Fox news poll. At least it said that "there were more Democrats in the least aware group". See most Dems are oblivious to whats really going on.
You carefully neglected this part of the quotation: "Democrats and Republicans were about equally represented in the most knowledgeable group," so you were dishonest. Further, you did not address the weak showing of Fox, so effectively you ceded that point. Finally, such broad generalizations are idiotic.
Posted by: Lex Steele at April 17, 2007 11:49 PM (/yN81)
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MikeM: Do you happen to know if there are more people watching FoxNews or the network morning shows?
No, not a clue. You might try the Nielsen website.
Posted by: Lex Steele at April 17, 2007 11:50 PM (/yN81)
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Bob, are you aware that last week it was reported that Iran was supplying Sunnis in Iraq with weapons? I see some commenters find it hard to believe that Iran is supplying weapons to Sunnis in Afghanistan. Perhaps you could show them the link from NPR.
Posted by: Will at April 18, 2007 01:19 AM (SMg1M)
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Will, that NPR page reports on the administration's accusations. That's a world of difference from the NPR asserting that the accusations are true.
Posted by: Lex Steele at April 18, 2007 10:16 AM (/yN81)
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Lex, I think Liberals and conservatives have a different perception of Iran and its dubious intentions. Liberals don't see the true sinister goals of Iran. They think that Iran is only interested in defending themselves and Shiites worldwide, hence they look at the Bush administration's approach to Iran as agressive and as one that is provoking the mullahs. Hence, they also can't believe that Iran is aiding the sunni insurgents. But of course the truth of the matter is the Iranian agenda is alot more sinister than Liberals realize. Conservatives realize that Iran will do anything to make sure Democracy doesn't succeed in Afghanistan, Iraq or anywhere else in the world. The Iranian's wish to spread their brand of Islamic fundamentalism worldwide. And the more powerful and better equipped they become, the more aggressive they'll become in furthering their agenda. As a side point, keep in mind that the sunni Syrian government works with Hezbollah Shiites to further their own agenda. Strange, but true. Without fully understanding the Iranian government's ultimate goals, Liberals will never believe that Iran would aid sunni insurgents. For this same reason Liberals believe it is possible to negotiate with Iran about the situation in Iraq. The way they see it - and they say so themselves - Iran doesn't want to see a destabilized situation in Iran, for that would pose a danger to themselves. Accordingly, they believe it is possible to negotiate with Iran. But the this is an egregious misconception. Iran will do whatever it takes to make sure Democracy doesn't set foot inside Iraq and Afghanistan, whether its arming shiite or sunni insurgents. I think this explains the difference of opinion between conservatives and Liberals regarding Iraq. A time will probably come when all of us realize this fact, but hopefully it won't be too late by then.
Posted by: Will at April 18, 2007 02:05 PM (SMg1M)
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Damn Occam, Full Speed Ahead
It is becoming abundantly clear that Brian Ross isn't the only member of ABC News that has the intention of using the Virginia Tech massacre to push an anti-gun political agenda, with extended magazines being mentioned again, even though there has been no corroboration that they played any factor at all:
It is unknown at this time if his guns had standard or extended clips, which, depending on the weapon, can fire as many as 30 shots before the gun has to be reloaded.
Actually, we
do know for a fact that one of the weapons used, a Walther P22 that was his most recent purchase is only available with a ten-round magazine. Extended magazines for this pistol do not exist.
Extended magazines for Glocks (designed with the selective-fire
Glock 18 machine pistol in mind, a weapon practically unavailable to American shooters) are capable of being used in Glock 19s do exist, but they are rather rare to encounter, and are typically found only online or through catalog order. They are rarely carried in most gun stores.
The reason is quite simple; Glocks are typically purchased for sport (target) shooting and personal defense by both civilians and police departments. When a Glock is fed an extended 31-round or even less common 33-round magazine, the weight of the extra 16-18 rounds dramatically changes the balance and weight of the pistol to make it butt-heavy, making it a bit more difficult to shoot, and the extra length and weight make it all but impossible to carry in any practical manner.
There is also no indication at all that he purchased his weapons, ammunition and accessories from anywhere other than the Roanoke gun shop where he purchased both pistols roughly a month apart, but as first voiced in Brian Ross' patently false "Blotter" blog entry yesterday and carried forth in this news article, the "deciders" at ABC News seem to have decided that they are going to hammer the extended magazine angle of this story, whether or not such magazines were even used.
"Truthy" used to be the standard for satire-based news shows. God help us now that it is ABC's new apparent standard for news.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
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Man I can't believe these nuts are already trying to tear down the second amendment only a week after tearing down the first. The far-left is completely out of control.
Posted by: Justin at April 17, 2007 06:45 PM (NiTuu)
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I suspect by "extended" these doofs may be referring to pre/post-ban mags with the ten round limit removed. So in other words, the standard 16-round clip is "extended" v. the ten round clip, even though it's exactly the same size.
Posted by: See-dubya at April 17, 2007 06:51 PM (KnvsM)
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PS It is also unknown at this time whether the shooter used a high-capacity nuclear bazooka firing depleted-uranium pitchforks. Stay tuned to ABC, we'll keep you advised.
Posted by: See-Dubya at April 17, 2007 06:56 PM (KnvsM)
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Why can't you wingers understand it's OK to lie as long as it's for the common good? We're going to get those big bad loud smelly scary guns off the street one way or another, then next week we're repealing the THIRD Amendment. -- Bryan
I exerpted and linked at Virginia Tech: The Day After
Posted by: Bill Faith at April 17, 2007 08:32 PM (n7SaI)
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Does NBC use armed guards to defend its facilities and employees? Does Michael Eisner and Disney use armed guards? Do these large corporations use armed bodyguards for their top executives like Rosie O'Donnell does?
Tell you what, you guys disarm yourselves, if you think guns are useless. I'll keep mine in any case.
Posted by: Jabba the Tutt at April 18, 2007 06:18 PM (YSEXV)
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