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Saturday Morning Politics Thread: Medicaid Expansion [Y-not]

Good morning, horde! Today we'll examine the field of prospective 2016 GOP candidates for their positions on Medicaid expansion, in particular as it relates to Obamacare.

First, a little background:

Title XIX of the Social Security Act is a federal and state entitlement program that pays for medical assistance for certain individuals and families with low incomes and resources. This program, known as Medicaid, became law in 1965 as a cooperative venture jointly funded by the federal and state governments (including the District of Columbia and the territories) to assist states in furnishing medical assistance to eligible needy persons. Medicaid is the largest source of funding for medical and health-related services for America's poorest people.

Within broad national guidelines established by federal statutes, regulations, and policies, each state establishes its own eligibility standards; determines the type, amount, duration, and scope of services; sets the rate of payment for services; and administers its own program. Medicaid policies for eligibility, services, and payment are complex and vary considerably, even among states of similar size or geographic proximity. Thus, a person who is eligible for Medicaid in one state may not be eligible in another state, and the services provided by one state may differ considerably in amount, duration, or scope from services provided in a similar or neighboring state. In addition, state legislatures may change Medicaid eligibility, services, and/or reimbursement at any time.

Follow the link to read about the alphabet soup of subsequent programs, including CHIP, CHIPRA, PPACA, and HCERA under which Medicaid has expanded over the years. Then go down a fifth of ValuRite and wander back.

Under Obamacare, states have been induced to expand Medicaid coverage. From the ACA website:

The Affordable Care Act provides states with additional federal funding to expand their Medicaid programs to cover adults under 65 with income up to 133% of the federal poverty level. (Because of the way this is calculated, it's effectively 138% of the federal poverty level.) Children (18 and under) are eligible up to that income level or higher in all states.

This means that in states that have expanded Medicaid, free or low-cost health coverage is available to people with incomes below a certain level regardless of disability, family status, financial resources, and other factors that are usually taken into account in Medicaid eligibility decisions.

These policies are expensive. From the CBO:

Federal spending would increase to 26 percent of GDP by 2039 under the assumptions of the extended baseline, CBO projects, compared with 21 percent in 2013 and an average of 20.5 percent over the past 40 years. That increase reflects the following projected paths for various types of federal spending if current laws remained generally unchanged (see the figure below):

Federal spending for Social Security and the government's major health care programs -- Medicare, Medicaid, the Children's Health Insurance Program, and subsidies for health insurance purchased through the exchanges created under the Affordable Care Act -- would rise sharply, to a total of 14 percent of GDP by 2039, twice the 7 percent average seen over the past 40 years. That boost in spending is expected to occur because of the aging of the population, growth in per capita spending on health care, and an expansion of federal health care programs.

Follow the link to read more. Then, down another fifth of ValuRite, blow chow behind the dumpster, and stagger back.

The National Council of State Legislatures provides a good summary of how Medicaid expansion impacts states:

Provisions of the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act (PPACA) expanded Medicaid to all Americans under age 65 whose family income is at or below 133 percent of federal poverty guidelines ($14,484 for an individual and $29,726 for a family of four in 2011) by Jan. 1, 2014. As passed by Congress, states failing to participate in this expansion would risk losing their entire federal Medicaid allotment.

The Medicaid expansion provision of the law led to challenges that rose to the Supreme Court where, on June 28, 2012, the court ruled that Congress may not make a state's entire existing Medicaid funds contingent upon the state's compliance with the PPACA Medicaid expansion. In practice, this ruling makes the Medicaid expansion a voluntary action by states.

The Court's decision sparked many questions from state policymakers. In a series of letters, the Department of Health and Human Services (HHS) has begun to clarify its interpretation of the ruling. In the initial letter on July 10, HHS Secretary Kathleen Sebelius addressed the decision and the next steps. Furthermore, responding to a letter from the Republican Governors Association (RGA) requesting additional guidance from the Obama administration, Marilyn Tavenner, the acting administrator of the Centers for Medicare and Medicaid Services, clarified in a letter that no deadlines had been set for states to make a decision concerning the expansion of their Medicaid programs.

Given this new choice, states are weighing the costs and savings associated with expanding Medicaid to cover most people under the age of 65 with incomes at or below 133 percent of the federal poverty guidelines. Even with the federal government paying for a significant portion of the cost of coverage for the newly eligible -- 100 percent in 2014 through 2016, decreasing to 90 percent in 2020 and thereafter -- fiscal uncertainties remain.

You can follow this link for a current (as of February 12th) map showing where the states stand in terms of Medicaid expansion. I like their map, but it doesn't reproduce very well, so here's another based on the same data:

Medicaidmap.jpg

State of the States: Blue=expanding coverage with Medicaid; Purple: expanding coverage with an alternate plan; Dark grey=considering expansion; Light grey=not expanding coverage at this time. Wisconsin, Texas, Louisiana, and South Carolina are not expanding Medicaid. New Mexico is. And Indiana is planning to expand using its own plan (more about that later).

Because I'm a giver, I donned my HazMat suit (and grabbed my trusty spray bottle of vinegar) and went over to some Liberal sites to see what their arguments were in favor of Medicaid expansion.

Here's ThinkProgress "The One Argument For Medicaid Expansion That Even Republicans Have To Agree With" from last Fall:

As a growing number of conservative states expand their Medicaid programs under the requirements of the Affordable Care Act, a new analysis finds that the states still holding out on expansion will pay out $152 billion to provide insurance for low income Americans in other states with incomes up to 138 percent of the federal poverty line.

Taxpayers in five of the biggest non-expansion states -- Texas, Florida, North Carolina, Georgia and Virginia -- will have to fork over close to $88 billion through federal taxes to benefit others. Under the law, the federal government picks up the entire cost of expansion through 2016 and up to 90 percent thereafter. As a result, federal dollars will pay for more than 95 percent of the total cost of the Medicaid expansion over the next ten years (from 2015 to 2024).

CrabbyKitty.JPG

Your hostess after reading "Progressive" web sites. (Crabby.)

Here are some bullet points from A Toolkit for State Advocates developed by the Center on Budget and Policy Priorities:

* Rural America Will Benefit from Medicaid Expansion
* Expanding Medicaid Will Benefit Both Low-Income Women and Their Babies
* If Low-Income Adults Are To Gain Health Coverage, States Must Expand Medicaid
* Half of Uninsured Veterans Would Gain Health Coverage Through Medicaid
* Medicaid Will Improve Outcomes, Lower Costs for People with HIV
* Medicaid Expansion Could Cut Native Americans' Uninsurance Rate by Half

Each bullet point links with a "fact sheet" purporting to back their claims. There are many more, this was just a sampling.

Of course, there are many arguments being made against Medicaid expansion. Here's a brief round up:

One of the biggest myths pushed in statehouses across the country is that Obamacare's Medicaid expansion will be an engine of economic growth. The Obama administration promises that more than 350,000 jobs would be created nationwide in 2015 if all states opted into Obamacare expansion.

But the truth is that expanding Medicaid to able-bodied adults will discourage work, create massive new welfare cliffs and ultimately shrink the economy, not grow it. A new report by the Foundation for Government Accountability outlines how Obamacare expansion could affect the labor force.

Obamacare's perverse design discourages work by creating a massive new welfare cliff for able-bodied adults. In states that expand Medicaid under Obamacare, single adults moving above 138 percent FPL would face premiums, deductibles, copays, coinsurance and other out-of-pocket costs nearly $2,000 higher (on average) than those they were subject to under Medicaid.

The massive new welfare cliff created by Obamacare's Medicaid expansion is sure to discourage employment. Research shows that expanding Medicaid to this new population will discourage work, depress earnings, reduce labor-force participation and hurt the economy.

**UPDATE: I accidentally neglected to provide the link for this article in Forbes.**

(By the way, if you are on Twitter I recommend that you follow Josh Archambault @josharchambault for dogged coverage of Medicaid expansion.)

Here's a short excerpt from Heritage:

Medicaid is a problem for patients -- and it's also a major problem for states that are struggling financially. As Heritage's Nina Owcharenko explains:

Today, Medicaid consumes over 23 percent of state budgets, surpassing education as the largest state budget item. As Medicaid spending continues to rise, other important state priorities such as education, emergency services, transportation, and criminal justice are squeezed.

In fact, 40 out of the 50 states are projected to see higher costs -- not savings -- from expanding Medicaid.

Finally, in this piece that appeared in The Federalist last Fall, the author outlines the political ramifications to Republicans who back some form of Medicaid expansion. I'm afraid that Governors John Kasich (whom some seem to think is a 2016 prospect) and Mike Pence took it on the chin. Here's what he had to say about the Indiana governor's strategy:

His proposed Medicaid expansion would build on the current Healthy Indiana Plan, which funds health savings accounts for certain Medicaid enrollees, and create "HIP 2.0" -- essentially the same program but extended to the expansion population, with more benefits and larger taxpayer-funded HSA contributions for those who deposit a nominal amount of their own funds each month. Pence has touted his "consumer-driven" proposal as a conservative way to expand Medicaid in the belief that such a thing is possible. A close examination of his plan shows that it is not. In fact, a close examination of all the Republican expansion plans to date reveals that truly conservative Medicaid reforms are incompatible with Medicaid rules as promulgated by the Center for Medicare and Medicaid Services.

(Coincidentally, yesterday's AoSHQ Podcast included discussion of Medicaid expansion, so feel free to check that out if you want even more info about the subject.)

So, with that background, here's where our seven Republican primary prospects stand:

GOV. SCOTT WALKER, WISCONSIN
Although his state is experiencing budget challenges prompting the governor to defer $100 million in debt payments and Walker is under pressure from his state's Democrats to take $345 million in Federal funds for Medicaid expansion, Wisconsin is not expanding Medicaid at this time.

FMR. GOV. RICK PERRY, TEXAS
Governor Perry announced back in 2012 that his state would not expand Medicaid. Texas' new Governor is under pressure to expand Medicaid under a scheme called "The Texas Way."

GOV. BOBBY JINDAL, LOUISIANA
Bobby Jindal opposes Medicaid expansion. (More recently, Jindal has engaged in a lively debate with Ramesh Ponnuru over a "conservative alternative to Obamacare." It's a bit outside the scope of this post, but you might find it interesting.)

GOV. NIKKI HALEY, SOUTH CAROLINA
South Carolina is not expanding Medicaid. Here's a recent article from a former advisor to Haley who stands by that decision for South Carolina, but who says that Medicaid expansion might be the right answer in some states.

GOV. SUSANA MARTINEZ, NEW MEXICO
Governor Martinez, who has had a Democrat legislature for most of her term in office, announced in 2013 that New Mexico would expand Medicaid. Interestingly, CATO still gave her the second highest "fiscal responsibility" score out of the governors we're reviewing in depth.

GOV. MIKE PENCE, INDIANA
Governor Pence has been working for some time in coming up with a compromise with the Obama administration that would allow Indiana to implement its own Medicaid-style expansion. This Slate article from January provides an overview:

The Obama administration has been so eager to close this coverage gap among the neediest Americans that it has cut deals with several states -- notably Arkansas, Iowa, Michigan, and Pennsylvania -- to allow them to expand Medicaid in ways that differ from the traditional program. But the concessions it made to Pence and Indiana go far beyond what it has agreed to previously. The expansion will cover 350,000 people in Indiana, which previously had very stringent eligibility levels -- adults qualified only if they had young children and were virtually indigent, making less than a quarter of the poverty level. But under the plan, Hoosiers above the poverty level will have to pay a monthly premium of 2 percent of their income -- as much as $25 a month for a single childless adult -- for coverage. Those under the poverty level won't have to pay the premium to get basic coverage, but they won't qualify for dental and vision benefits unless they do pay the premium. The rule will effectively create a waiting period before people get coverage, as the state determines whether they're paying their premiums and what level of coverage they qualify for. And, in a first for Medicaid, Indiana will lock out people earning above the poverty level from their coverage for six months if they fail to pay their monthly premiums.

Hoosiers on Medicaid will also need to make copayments -- including, in an another first for Medicaid, paying $25 for an emergency room visit if they've previously made what are deemed to be needless visits to the emergency room.

You can read more about Indiana's deal here.

Needless to say, Pence has drawn criticism from conservatives for this deal.

SEN. TED CRUZ, TEXAS
Ted Cruz is well-known in both Lefty and GOPe circles as an evil hobbit who wants people to die without health care coverage. As evidence of how evil he is, he introduced the Health Care Choice Act. How radical is this hobbit's plan? Well...

Cruz and a number of Senate cosponsors have filed a bill called the Health Care Choice Act of 2015. The bill intends to set into statute a much-discussed idea by conservative health care reformers to allow people to buy health insurance across state lines. It also repeals the portion of Obamacare law that mandates that individuals must buy health insurance on pain of ever increasing fines.

Cruz's bill represents a different approach to health care reform than that of the Obama administration. Whereas Obamacare relies on sanctions and penalties,
"Cruzcare" relies on the free market to expand choice and bring down costs. The idea of a national market for health insurance that creates risk pools is not a new one. But Cruz is the first to make a concrete proposal to make it happen.

I'm sure you all join me in denouncing this awful junior Senator who has the gall to actually make a concrete proposal.

/s

See you next week!


Candidate Backgrounders:

Walker, Perry, Jindal here
Paul, Rubio, Cruz here
Kasich, Haley, Martinez here
Pence here
Gowdy, Sessions, Carson, Lee here
Huntsman, Bush, Christie here
Romney, Ryan, Huckabee, Palin here

Quick Reference Guide: The composition (by majority party) of the state legislatures that each of the six governors we've been tracking have enjoyed during their terms. In Ted Cruz's case, I'm showing the party split for Congress. Note: I've collapsed Perry's first seven years as governor into two columns to make the chart more legible. When he assumed office, Texas had a "purple" legislature.

CorrectedPartyControlTable.jpg

Previous "issues" threads:

Labor Policies, Part I and Part II
Taxes
Economy Jobs and Wages
Energy here and here
Common Core
"Fiscal Scorecards" for each candidate (Mike Pence's is here)

Posted by: Open Blogger at 09:00 AM




Comments

(Jump to bottom of comments)

1 I've become rather negative.

Zombie Reagan or bust.

Posted by: Ricardo Kill at March 07, 2015 09:04 AM (vvS6Q)

2 Did I kill the thread?

Posted by: Ricardo Kill at March 07, 2015 09:07 AM (vvS6Q)

3 Thanks Y-not.

These threads have a tremendous amount of detail, which equates to an awful lot of background work on your part.

I mean, not on the order of an Ace movie review.


But close.

Posted by: Village Idiot's Apprentice at March 07, 2015 09:08 AM (2Ri9w)

4 Thanks, ViA.

Posted by: Y-not at March 07, 2015 09:10 AM (9BRsg)

5 Take a look at this Cato piece on why expansion is bad. Best "anti" explanation I have seen.

http://tinyurl.com/mkcqxlh



Posted by: Ha at March 07, 2015 09:10 AM (AIrMy)

6 Still not sure about Martinez. Good on some things, squishy on others.

Posted by: Ricardo Kill at March 07, 2015 09:10 AM (vvS6Q)

7 Y-not, why is crossing state lines to purchase insurance verboten but not from the overarching State?

Posted by: All Hail Eris at March 07, 2015 09:12 AM (KH1sk)

8 Of course, making a bigger honey pot just traps more flies.

Posted by: Zap Rowsdower at March 07, 2015 09:12 AM (MMC8r)

9 Still not sure about Martinez. Good on some things, squishy on others.
---

Yeah, same here.

I consider he to be a good backup. She's very hamstrung by her legislature and the economics (and demographics) of her state. She doesn't strike me as a fire-breathing liberal Republican. She seems more like a "pragmatic" one.

So not top tier for me, but I think I'd prefer her over Carly Fiorina if the goal is to find some "lady parts" to put on the ticket.

I find this talk of Fiorina as being somehow a legitimate option really offensive.

Posted by: Y-not at March 07, 2015 09:13 AM (9BRsg)

10 scorecards are fine. but what really matters are the intangibles of leadership, vision, charisma, the abilty to persuade and inspire, and such. the hard to quantifiables.

Posted by: THEgoatexchange at March 07, 2015 09:14 AM (d2HKR)

11 Y-not, why is crossing state lines to purchase insurance verboten but not from the overarching State?
---

It cuts out Big Daddy Federal?

I dunno. I only know that Ted Cruz must be stopped at all costs! /sarc

Posted by: Y-not at March 07, 2015 09:14 AM (9BRsg)

12 Walker is still holding firm. The budget issues will be resolved, if those, such as the University system, use the tools he's giving them. It worked in the public schools and will work for them. Regarding Medicaid expansion, yes you will have insurance coverage but good luck finding a decent doctor to care for you. My doctors office has a sign as you walk in saying check your coverage as they don't take all plans. In fact, few plans. But I get seen in minutes if needed.

Posted by: Mr. Natural at March 07, 2015 09:17 AM (/pOl7)

13 Great work, Y-not. Medicaid is a huge budget-buster for the states, as you observed, and the Medicaid expansion is a Faustian bargain.

Posted by: Insomniac at March 07, 2015 09:17 AM (mx5oN)

14 "So not top tier for me, but I think I'd prefer her over Carly Fiorina if
the goal is to find some "lady parts" to put on the ticket."


Oh God yes. Were I a New Mexican, my second most favoritest state, I'm happy as Hell with Martinez all considered.

Fiorina? God help us.

Posted by: Ricardo Kill at March 07, 2015 09:18 AM (vvS6Q)

15 wow, is this really Saturday?

Posted by: Vic at March 07, 2015 09:19 AM (wlDny)

16 scorecards are fine. but what really matters are the intangibles of leadership, vision, charisma, the abilty to persuade and inspire, and such. the hard to quantifiables
---

Yeah, it's clear that any of these groups' "scorecards" can be gamed. I think they're a helpful guide, but not something upon which to rely.

I feel the same way about candidates' speeches. Talk is cheap.

That's why I've been forcing myself to go through the actual records of accomplishments.

That said, I've had a request to assemble the results of what we've gone through thus far into some sort of table to make it easier to track. I'm trying to figure out how to do that w/o injecting (too much of) my own bias into it. I don't know how to "score" their achievements completely objectively.

On the other hand, so many conservative bloggers and publications are completely all in for certain candidates (Walker *cough,cough*), so maybe I shouldn't sweat it. If you support a certain candidate you know which bloggers and writers to read to see 24/7 positive coverage of him.

Posted by: Y-not at March 07, 2015 09:20 AM (9BRsg)

17 Isn't Fiorina's biggest life achievement running Hewlett-Packard into the ground?

Posted by: Insomniac at March 07, 2015 09:20 AM (mx5oN)

18 Even if ObamaCare lowered healthcare premiums, we'd still be paying through taxes to pay for Medicaid-- this is just cost-shifting through the government.

Posted by: Zap Rowsdower at March 07, 2015 09:21 AM (MMC8r)

19 Ted Cruz is well-known in both Lefty and GOPe circles as an evil hobbit who wants people to die without health care coverage.
____________________________

What is the point of having health care "coverage" if the coverage doesn't allow you to see a doctor, or at least, not a competent doctor.

Several large studies have shown that people who have Medicaid "coverage" are actually worse off, in terms of the actual medical care they receive, than people who have no insurance coverage at all. Most doctors won't accept new Medicaid patients (due to the ludicrously low gov't reimbursement rates), so Medicaid patients end up with bottom-of-the-barrel doctors who typically operate patient mills (seeing hundreds of patients a day, and never spending more than a minute or two with any one patient).

If Cruz really wants people to die without coverage, maybe it's because he has seen all the studies that show that you're better off dying without coverage than dying while having Medicaid coverage. In fact, having Medicaid coverage means you're more likely to die than if you have no coverage at all. So really by opposing expanded Medicaid, Cruz is just trying to help poor people live longer!

Posted by: TrivialPursuer at March 07, 2015 09:21 AM (lmdHn)

20 Title XIX of the Social Security Act is a federal and state entitlement
program that pays for medical assistance for certain individuals and
families with low incomes and resources.



IOW just another welfare program for people who did not pay into it.



Posted by: Vic at March 07, 2015 09:21 AM (wlDny)

21 "Isn't Fiorina's biggest life achievement running Hewlett-Packard into the ground?"


Far as I know. But, she somehow got rich in the process.


Why can't I find these jobs???

Posted by: Ricardo Kill at March 07, 2015 09:22 AM (vvS6Q)

22 Under the law, the federal government picks up the entire cost of expansion through 2016 and up to 90 percent thereafter. As a result, federal dollars will pay for more than 95 percent of the total cost of the Medicaid expansion over the next ten years (from 2015 to 2024).

Oh, it's the government's money?

Posted by: Zap Rowsdower at March 07, 2015 09:23 AM (MMC8r)

23 21 "Isn't Fiorina's biggest life achievement running Hewlett-Packard into the ground?"


Far as I know. But, she somehow got rich in the process.


Why can't I find these jobs???
Posted by: Ricardo Kill at March 07, 2015 09:22 AM (vvS6Q)

No shit. Seems to be the pattern. Get the CEO position, make millions, f*ck up royally, get shitcanned, receive a massive golden parachute.

Posted by: Insomniac at March 07, 2015 09:23 AM (mx5oN)

24 hey but it is old farts from the 50s and 60s who are bankrupting SS.

Posted by: Vic at March 07, 2015 09:23 AM (wlDny)

25 @ 17


Yes, and I'll thank you not to impugn the nice lady's signature accomplishment.

Hard work, destroying a corporation under the auspices of helping.

Posted by: irongrampa at March 07, 2015 09:24 AM (jeCnD)

26 "What is the point of having health care "coverage" if the coverage
doesn't allow you to see a doctor, or at least, not a competent doctor.
"



Political. Cover.





Posted by: Ricardo Kill at March 07, 2015 09:24 AM (vvS6Q)

27 26 "What is the point of having health care "coverage" if the coverage
doesn't allow you to see a doctor, or at least, not a competent doctor.
"



Political. Cover.





Posted by: Ricardo Kill at March 07, 2015 09:24 AM (vvS6Q)

Winner winner, chicken dinner!

Posted by: Insomniac at March 07, 2015 09:25 AM (mx5oN)

28 Uh-oh.



Looks we killed the thread again.

Posted by: Ricardo Kill at March 07, 2015 09:31 AM (vvS6Q)

29 >>Looks we killed the thread again.

Maybe I should have broken it into two parts over two weeks. It's pretty long.


Since we're the only ones here, what do you want covered next, Ricardo?

Posted by: Y-not at March 07, 2015 09:33 AM (9BRsg)

30 Let's say I accept the premise that people having access to healthcare (not actual treatment, mind you--Medicare doesn't give that, only access) is good, then what benefit is it to me?

Why do I benefit because someone else has Medicare?

You tell me that my dollars--extracted from the limited amount of time I have on this Earth--must be forcibly taken from me to help others.
Should I not get at least some benefit in return?

But: I don't.

Either you bring the men with guns to force me pay for more and ever more Medicare.

Or you bring the men with guns to force me to pay for more and ever more indigent care at the local hospital.

No matter what--I am forced to pay.

So: Where is my benefit?
Not going to jail?
Not losing my land, my livelihood?

How come I don't get a say in what is good for me?

But the poor get a hundred million voices browbeating me, and a hundred million more directing the full force and weight of government to say what is good for them.

Posted by: RoyalOil at March 07, 2015 09:33 AM (ZvKdv)

31 CLEAR!!


*ZZap*

Posted by: Village Idiot's Apprentice at March 07, 2015 09:33 AM (2Ri9w)

32 This post is missing the DOOM logo.

Posted by: rickl at March 07, 2015 09:34 AM (sdi6R)

33 OT: Cops shot and killed a black male teenager in Madison, WI last night. Assuming it will hit the news sooner rather than later.

Posted by: Popcorn at March 07, 2015 09:34 AM (NnN0z)

34
I just learned of this Soros funded umbrella group for social justice warriors:

Society for
Total
Extinction of
Non-Conforming
Humans

Gotta forward this info to The Blaze, stat.

Posted by: Ed Anger at March 07, 2015 09:35 AM (RcpcZ)

35 Oh, Y, you are doing perfectly fine. Don't change a thing. I'm still reading and thinking and soaking it in.


Lay. It. On.

Posted by: Ricardo Kill at March 07, 2015 09:35 AM (vvS6Q)

36 23
Seems to be the pattern. Get the CEO position, make millions, f*ck up royally, get shitcanned, receive a massive golden parachute.

Posted by: Insomniac at March 07, 2015 09:23 AM (mx5oN)



Therefore, she's a natural for high political office.

Posted by: rickl at March 07, 2015 09:36 AM (sdi6R)

37 Oops. Make that:

Society for
Total
Extinction of
Non
Conforming
Humans

Sorry, my bad.


Posted by: Ed Anger at March 07, 2015 09:36 AM (RcpcZ)

38 Medicaid funding = Three card Monty

Posted by: Muldoon, a solid man at March 07, 2015 09:37 AM (NeFrd)

39 One of the biggest myths pushed in statehouses across the country is
that Obamacare's Medicaid expansion will be an engine of economic
growth.



Broken window fallacy times 10. How can anyone, even dumb ass Democrats claim that giving free shit to people who don't pay for it at the cost of the people that do work will benefit the economy.

Posted by: Vic at March 07, 2015 09:37 AM (wlDny)

40 "OT: Cops shot and killed a black male teenager in Madison, WI last night. Assuming it will hit the news sooner rather than later."

Althouse has it

http://tinyurl.com/p9acosa

Posted by: Village Idiot's Apprentice at March 07, 2015 09:38 AM (2Ri9w)

41 "OT: Cops shot and killed a black male teenager in Madison, WI last night."


Were the cops racists?

Posted by: Ricardo Kill at March 07, 2015 09:38 AM (vvS6Q)

42 It's called socialism. Income transfers to those who vote for The One.


It's all free! The Fed's pay. So it's not like real money.



You give shit away, people will take it.



Our maid, who was my wife's mother's maid, retired at 70. She just worked to actually get out of the house.



She's never had any health issues. So now, since a friend of her's had her hip replaced, she decided at 75 she needs a new hip.



Why not it's FREE. This shit is going to bankrupt the country.

Posted by: Nip Sip at March 07, 2015 09:41 AM (0FSuD)

43 I'm all for "free" catastrophic care for all.

However, it needs to be coupled with guidelines that clearly exclude the government spending hundreds of thousands of dollars trying to extend the life of someone 86 years old to 86.2 years.

People need to accept the premise that at some point, they will be given the care and medication to die quietly and comfortably at home or in a hospice instead of in an intensive care unit with 12 different people probing them daily.

This is where 50% of the healthcare dollars are going.

Posted by: jwest at March 07, 2015 09:41 AM (9ZZd+)

44 "How come I don't get a say in what is good for me?"


It is funny, R.O., in Europe social welfare programs are often called "schemes."

To them that is a descripter of a planned program. To Americans, it means an underhanded plot to defraud.


Funny.

Posted by: Ricardo Kill at March 07, 2015 09:41 AM (vvS6Q)

45 I find this talk of Fiorina as being somehow a legitimate option really offensive.

Posted by: Y-not at March 07, 2015 09:13 AM (9BRsg)

Well, she has accomplished more than Hillary Clinton!

Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo at March 07, 2015 09:41 AM (Zu3d9)

46 Looks we killed the thread again. Posted by: Ricardo Kill at March 07, 2015 09:31 AM

Not, you, but the subject matter.

Health care stuff -- like certain other issues -- gets everyone into their hard-and-fast modes. On one side, it's: "Free health care for all!!11!!" and on the other, "let the lazy slugs die!!11!!"

Those who fit somewhere in the ideological middle -- between, say, Ayn Rand and Lyndon Johnson -- are shouted down by the ideologues and don't wanna play.

My own feeling is that some form of subsidized health insurance is necessary, but the crooks in government just can't keep their sticky fingers out and bog the whole mess down with unenforceable rules and hoops for providers to jump through that drive the costs way, way up.

So far as I've seen, no candidate supports the idea of making this -- or any other government program -- efficient and businesslike, with the intent to make it work for those who need it at the lowest possible cost. Which means cutting bureaucracy to the bone and allowing every possible private-sector-based element to work efficiently.

Of course I would rather see everyone get free health care than subsidize Choom Boy's high-rollin' lifestyle and endless pork projects, but that's just me.

The first candidate who appears to even begin to express that view will get my attention.

Posted by: MrScribbler at March 07, 2015 09:42 AM (P8YHq)

47
Last hour of Levin's show last night has highlights (and lowlights) of the oral arguments of King v Burwell.

Worth a listen.

Posted by: J.J. Sefton at March 07, 2015 09:43 AM (CMkNk)

48 jwest, are you Barack Obama?

Posted by: Ricardo Kill at March 07, 2015 09:43 AM (vvS6Q)

49 That SC legislature should be R/D because most of the "Republican" are converted Democrats who switched parties when they found they could not be elected as a Democrat unless they were in a black majority district.

Posted by: Vic at March 07, 2015 09:45 AM (wlDny)

50 My position is actually the conservative position.

It frees those with the means to do whatever they want and spend as much as they have on their own healthcare. It limits what a government will do and how much that government will confiscate from its citizens.

Unless you want totally "everyone for themselves" society, what I propose is conservative.

Posted by: jwest at March 07, 2015 09:47 AM (9ZZd+)

51 MrScribbler
You might find the Jindal v Ponuru (sp?) debate interesting. I can't decide who's right. Leaning Jindal.
Also, Cruz has at least put a real legislative plan down on paper.

Posted by: Y-not on her phone at March 07, 2015 09:47 AM (9BRsg)

52 Yeah, Vic, I think Louisiana's is similar.

Posted by: Y-not on her phone at March 07, 2015 09:48 AM (9BRsg)

53 So CBD made bail. When's your arraignment?

Posted by: Y-not on her phone at March 07, 2015 09:49 AM (9BRsg)

54 50 Unless you want totally "everyone for themselves" society, what I propose is conservative.
Posted by: jwest at March 07, 2015 09:47 AM (9ZZd+)


The system that the Founders created is a system that requires the LEAST amount of government to ensure the functioning of the civil society SHORT OF ANARCHY.

No on wants the latter. We all crave as much freedom as we can have for life liberty and pursuit of happiness but within a moral context.

Capisce?

Posted by: J.J. Sefton at March 07, 2015 09:51 AM (CMkNk)

55 First, did not read, skimmed.
Second Ctrl-F "pay for", ok, federal money.
Raise the debt limit.

Madison...police shoot...under new law cops can't talk to reporter, can't investigate the shooting? Ok, who does, FBI?

Why does Madison need a police department, let Holder's FBI do it. Disband all local Pd, look at the money we could save. Put it on medicaid.

Let Darwin sort it out.

Meanwhile, I have to go dismantle the sump pump before the snow starts melting.

Posted by: Luster Bogguns at March 07, 2015 09:52 AM (KKMQQ)

56 "However, it needs to be coupled with guidelines"



Who's guidelines? Where? How? When? Why?


I'm 86 but healthy, non-smoker, clear of mind, not overweight, and, still contributing to society. Blue pill?


But the 66'er recovering alcoholic who's been on government assistance for 20 years get the royal treatment?

Posted by: Ricardo Kill at March 07, 2015 09:52 AM (vvS6Q)

57 Impressive thread, Y. It's on the quality of reference material. Somebody should save the balance of them, catalog, and make them available on a complete basis at primary time.

I like the idea of a master diagram.

Posted by: knob at March 07, 2015 09:52 AM (mQUCm)

58 "So CBD made bail."

Little early to jump to conclusions.
He may still be on the lam from the law.

Posted by: Village Idiot's Apprentice at March 07, 2015 09:52 AM (2Ri9w)

59 I am so tired. Waiting for scam artist furnace repair guy. Paycheck once again is late. Dog has prob cancer. Sick of the constant crap

Posted by: Baldy at March 07, 2015 09:52 AM (sEXjW)

60 You might find the Jindal v Ponuru (sp?) debate interesting. I can't decide who's right. Leaning Jindal.
Also, Cruz has at least put a real legislative plan down on paper.

Posted by: Y-not on her phone at March 07, 2015 09:47 AM


Yeah, Cruz seems to have his feet more firmly planted on the ground than most. But I think it's going to take a real axe-wielder to chop away at the real heart of the costs of anything the government involves itself in, which is the bureaucracy it builds to "supervise" private-sector providers of goods and services. Essentially, that doubles the cost even before the wallet-fattening activities of elected officials are factored in.

Not a Jindal fan -- I think he's overrated -- but he's got more on the ball than Ponnuru, anyway.

Posted by: MrScribbler at March 07, 2015 09:53 AM (P8YHq)

61 Posted by: Y-not on her phone at March 07, 2015 09:49 AM (9BRsg)

It was a pleasant evening. Met several new Morons, including three in their 20s!

I bailed at about 9:30.....the train schedule was not conducive to getting back at a reasonable hour.

But we have a couple each year, so I'll see these folks again.

Finding a good venue is really the only issue. Last night's had turned into a loud mosh-pit by the time I left. I think the remaining Morons adjourned to a quieter joint.

Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo at March 07, 2015 09:55 AM (Zu3d9)

62
Sorry I missed the fun. Next time!

Posted by: J.J. Sefton at March 07, 2015 09:56 AM (CMkNk)

63 "Waiting for scam artist furnace repair guy."


Sorry, Baldy. Shame you can't find someone worth a shit. Doesn't sound that hard.

Posted by: Ricardo Kill at March 07, 2015 09:56 AM (vvS6Q)

64 People need to accept the premise that at some
point, they will be given the care and medication to die quietly and
comfortably at home or in a hospice instead of in an intensive care unit
with 12 different people probing them daily.



This is where 50% of the healthcare dollars are going.

Posted by: jwest at March 07, 2015 09:41 AM (9ZZd+)



YAY Death Panels!

Posted by: Washington Nearsider, Keeper of the Guards, returned from 1080 exile at March 07, 2015 09:56 AM (2L0WZ)

65 If I wasn't at all concerned with electability, I'd run a Jindal / Cruz or Jindal / Walker ticket. Jindal is the brain and admin experience, Walker is the admin experience, Cruz is the charismatic fire-breather.

However, we live in the real world, so I doubt any ticket with Cruz on it will have appeal past the fever swamps of the right (here). Pity.

Posted by: pep at March 07, 2015 09:57 AM (4nR9/)

66 I just finished reading the whole thing. Great post Y-not and looks like a lot of work. Thanks Y-not.

Posted by: Vic at March 07, 2015 09:57 AM (wlDny)

67 Capisce?

Posted by: J.J. Sefton at March 07, 2015 09:51 AM (CMkNk)

The "Social Safety Net" that pseudo-conservatives like jwest crave is a poor reflection of the only functioning one....private industry, churches and other private organizations.


Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo at March 07, 2015 09:58 AM (Zu3d9)

68 Sorry about your dog, baldy!

Posted by: Y-not on her phone at March 07, 2015 09:58 AM (9BRsg)

69 "Sorry I missed the fun. Next time!"


JJ, you skipped the MoMe? Sounds like you're out of the Shriners.

Posted by: Ricardo Kill at March 07, 2015 09:59 AM (vvS6Q)

70 Thanks for the nice education, Y-Not, and for the work you did. It's good to see serious content on a weekend morning.

Posted by: Michael the Hobbit at March 07, 2015 09:59 AM (0RdKg)

71 I like Cruz the best on ideology. But I don't see him making a serious run this time.

I wouldn't mind having him in early debates to frame some issues.

Posted by: Y-not on her phone at March 07, 2015 10:00 AM (9BRsg)

72 The guidelines will be established by a Death Panel similar to what Oregon put together for their healthcare. It's based on what works and what is just throwing money away.

In your case, it wouldn't matter what the government guidelines are. You could buy whatever procedures and care you want with your own money. Get yourself a new hip, heart and pair of lungs while your on the table. No one will stop you.

Just write the check.

As a civilized society, we've collectively come to the point where we've decided that it's unacceptable to leave diseased and injured people in the streets to beg for care. We all pay taxes and a portion goes to keep the dying from underfoot in the public streets. My proposal recognizes that, but also recognizes that we can't use every bit of technology to extend the life of every citizen one extra day.

As someone who doesn't want Death Panels, you must be ready to confiscate every dollar from every citizen to pay for your benevolence. Not me.

Posted by: jwest at March 07, 2015 10:02 AM (9ZZd+)

73 Free goodies for everyone!

This next election pivots on who's better at Hispandering.

Posted by: Fritz at March 07, 2015 10:02 AM (UzPAd)

74 41
"OT: Cops shot and killed a black male teenager in Madison, WI last night."
Were the cops racists?


**cough**

Posted by: Pope defecating in the woods at March 07, 2015 10:02 AM (4nR9/)

75 Y-not - This is a real piece of work. My sincere thanks for tying all of this together.

Posted by: Mike hammer, etc., etc. at March 07, 2015 10:03 AM (l1zOH)

76 65 Posted by: pep at March 07, 2015 09:57 AM (4nR9/)


Electability is a myth promulgated by the RNCe to push liberal R's. Look at all the elections since RR.

Posted by: Vic at March 07, 2015 10:04 AM (wlDny)

77 I just realized that I forgot to provide a link. Post updated.

Posted by: Y-not at March 07, 2015 10:05 AM (9BRsg)

78 However, it needs to be coupled with guidelines that clearly exclude the
government spending hundreds of thousands of dollars trying to extend
the life of someone 86 years old to 86.2 years.



People need to accept the premise that at some point, they will be
given the care and medication to die quietly and comfortably at home or
in a hospice instead of in an intensive care unit with 12 different
people probing them daily.



This is where 50% of the healthcare dollars are going.


Your point is reasonable, but a political minefield. If Paul Ryan can be accused of throwing Grandma off a cliff, what do you think the Dems would do with your proposal?

It's impossible to have an adult discussion about it, and so it won't be discussed.

Posted by: pep at March 07, 2015 10:05 AM (4nR9/)

79 >>Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo at March 07, 2015 09:55 AM

Did you persuade Mrs CBD to leave NYC and join the morons?

Posted by: Y-not at March 07, 2015 10:06 AM (9BRsg)

80 I don't even know what to say. As soon as medical care became a budget issue it all went to shit.

Posted by: Ricardo Kill at March 07, 2015 10:07 AM (vvS6Q)

81 This next election pivots on who's better at Hispandering.
Posted by: Fritz at March 07, 2015 10:02 AM
--

But I thought that the "we must win the Latino vote" thing was thoroughly debunked after 2012.

Posted by: Y-not at March 07, 2015 10:08 AM (9BRsg)

82 The rapid expansion in healthcare costs is the real issue.

Yes, as we become wealthier we consume more healthcare. But that is balanced by more wealth!

Technological advances in healthcare supposedly drive costs, but that is not true in any other system. Your current TV is far better and does many more things than your TV from 1973, and it is much cheaper! Telecommunications, transportation, etc. All have had huge leaps in technology without the explosion in costs that healthcare has suffered.

The cause is obvious....government regulations that mandate, almost literally, every move a physician makes.

Unbelievable reporting and paperwork requirements that demand dedicated staff for what used to be simple bills.

Government control of the cost structure: causing huge dislocations in what should be market-driven.

Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo at March 07, 2015 10:08 AM (Zu3d9)

83 It's impossible to have an adult discussion about it, and so it won't be discussed.

Posted by: pep at March 07, 2015 10:05 AM (4nR9/)


I agree it's hard to get people to even think about it.

We have people on our side thinking that charities and the church would take care of the poor's healthcare if the government didn't.

They're thinking of a time when the average man lived to about 58 and the biggest expense in a hospital was providing a bed for a night.

Everyone wants to have a big heart with my money.

Posted by: jwest at March 07, 2015 10:09 AM (9ZZd+)

84 2037: White minority groups protest harsh treatment, demand civil rights.

Posted by: Boehner'sTearDucts at March 07, 2015 10:09 AM (Gcu5R)

85 86 vs 86.2

like the argument i don't want to have about when a fetus crosses over to being a baby whilst in utero

maybe it's the same as how liberals argue it. "if the fetus can survive outside the womb" etc which is a dodge of course.

but "can the old guy live outside of the nursing home" seems to be where it's going

Posted by: Bigby's Knuckle Sandwich at March 07, 2015 10:11 AM (Cq0oW)

86 81 But I thought that the "we must win the Latino vote" thing was thoroughly debunked after 2012.

Posted by: Y-not at March 07, 2015 10:08 AM (9BRsg)

The RNCe is still pushing it hard. Cheap labor for their cronies.

Posted by: Vic at March 07, 2015 10:11 AM (wlDny)

87 76
65 Posted by: pep at March 07, 2015 09:57 AM (4nR9/)


Electability is a myth promulgated by the RNCe to push liberal R's. Look at all the elections since RR.


Posted by: Vic


They try, sure, but electability is real and it does matter. I'm not a liberal, but I supported Romney, and have no regrets about that decision. He was better than the other candidates we had that year. The RNC wasn't mad about McCain, but he won the nom, to everyone's dismay. The GOPe wants Jeb or Rubio this year, but I don't think either one will get the nom, because too many people actively reject them.

Bottom line: conservatives need to run better campaigns and lay out clear ideas without alienating voters unnecessarily. It can be done.

Posted by: pep at March 07, 2015 10:12 AM (4nR9/)

88 Unbelievable reporting and paperwork requirements that demand dedicated staff for what used to be simple bills.
--------------

Yeah. My doc just called it quits. Leaves me in a lurch after 20 years, but I understand why he is throwing in the towel.

Posted by: Mike hammer, etc., etc. at March 07, 2015 10:12 AM (l1zOH)

89 Statistics on charitable giving:

www.nptrust.org/philanthropic-resources/charitable-giving-statistics/

Posted by: Y-not at March 07, 2015 10:12 AM (9BRsg)

90 I believe Vic protests to much. The democrats have not run SC for 30 years, so anyone in the legislature is not a converted democrat. They may sometimes act like democrats, but none of them ever were one.

Posted by: Nip Sip at March 07, 2015 10:12 AM (0FSuD)

91 This entire conversation is wrong.

Expansion, yes or no?

Jeebus.

Get rid of it.

Posted by: eman at March 07, 2015 10:13 AM (MQEz6)

92 82 Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo at March 07, 2015 10:08 AM (Zu3d9)


Healthcare costs are being driven by lawfare.

Posted by: Vic at March 07, 2015 10:13 AM (wlDny)

93 OT: Are you master of your domain?

http://tinyurl.com/m7z7hlq

Posted by: The Great White Snark at March 07, 2015 10:13 AM (LImiJ)

94 They're thinking of a time when the average man lived to about 58 and the biggest expense in a hospital was providing a bed for a night.
--------------------

And the bill for that was $50.00

Posted by: Mike hammer, etc., etc. at March 07, 2015 10:14 AM (l1zOH)

95 Thank you Y-Not. A plethora of work in a concise format.

Posted by: HugoStiglitz at March 07, 2015 10:15 AM (Moh0M)

96 "The cause is obvious....government regulations that mandate, almost literally, every move a physician makes. "


Don't think that everyone in healthcare is an angel.

Doctors, hospitals and labs all love the extraordinary attempts to "help" those who are in their last few months of life. There isn't a test or procedure that can't be justified by some means and the outcome doesn't matter.

Rack up the charges and don't worry about malpractice, because it would next to impossible to prove. This is where the new Jaguar is coming from.

Posted by: jwest at March 07, 2015 10:15 AM (9ZZd+)

97 HugoStiglitz at March 07, 2015 10:15 AM (Moh0M)

But for a couple of letters, you'd have the perfect hash! :-)

Posted by: Y-not at March 07, 2015 10:15 AM (9BRsg)

98 Your horse shit PC crap in the WSJ. Women running the world would be great. Odd this guy is ghey? Might be fire walled




http://tinyurl.com/oqkjvwu

Posted by: Nip Sip at March 07, 2015 10:16 AM (0FSuD)

99 God, this thread is getting depressing, but I'm longing for the days of Doc' Adams.


Posted by: Ricardo Kill at March 07, 2015 10:16 AM (vvS6Q)

100 Government run health care. I couldn't use strong enough words to convey how bad it would be.
*VA care. Remember that scandle.
*This is new to me: http://www.thedailysheeple.com/the-starfield-revelation-medically-caused-death-in-america_032015
* Many times it has come out where the govt used citizens as test subjects with their knowledge or consent.

Posted by: OSTB at March 07, 2015 10:16 AM (ShdUd)

101 Posted by: pep at March 07, 2015 10:12 AM (4nR9/)


I throw the bullshit flag on that.

Posted by: Vic at March 07, 2015 10:16 AM (wlDny)

102 Healthcare costs are being driven by lawfare.

Posted by: Vic at March 07, 2015 10:13 AM (wlDny)

That is one driver of costs, but certainly not the only one or the biggest one.

Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo at March 07, 2015 10:16 AM (Zu3d9)

103 One major thing that I haven't seen mentioned is that what Medicare pays providers is so low that they loose money on each patient. That doesn't even take into account that, as a group, they tend to be the most labor intensive patients that consume more staff time and resources in a practice.

Posted by: Aviator at March 07, 2015 10:16 AM (sQzB6)

104 Healthcare is a collection of products and services and government should stay out of it.

Collectivization got us in this mess and more of it sure is not the thing to chose.

Posted by: eman at March 07, 2015 10:17 AM (MQEz6)

105 @93
Dude, my daughters also use my account. Now that's on my browsing history.

Posted by: pep at March 07, 2015 10:17 AM (4nR9/)

106 90
I believe Vic protests to much. The democrats have not run SC for 30
years, so anyone in the legislature is not a converted democrat. They
may sometimes act like democrats, but none of them ever were one.


Posted by: Nip Sip at March 07, 2015 10:12 AM (0FSuD)

It has not been 30 years since that mass conversion.

Posted by: Vic at March 07, 2015 10:17 AM (wlDny)

107 If you all will excuse me, I have to leave early for work to allow extra time for stepping over all the dead and dying in the parking lot at the hospital...


...Oh, wait, my bad, just a bunch of straw men.

Posted by: Muldoon, a solid man at March 07, 2015 10:17 AM (NeFrd)

108 That SC legislature should be R/D because most of the "Republican" are converted Democrats who switched parties when they found they could not be elected as a Democrat unless they were in a black majority district.

I'm trying to figure out the Rs in the Pennsy legislature then.

because they are so very, very Crony and so very, very Liberal. and they're "lifelong" republicans for generations.

I think it's just - they are now members of the Sainted Class. party?!?!? yeah they're in The Party.

we're not.

oh and by the by, the reason states like PA love increasing Medicaid fundage (which is what, I still hold, the ENTIRE POINT of the ACA was) is not just "the poor" but really the jobs.

our state is mostly govt jobs - edu, healthcare, and direct government. The patient pool is a pretext for creating bunches more admin HC jobs, and other related things. growing the Party's special class of "workers."

Posted by: BlackOrchidPhotobomb at March 07, 2015 10:18 AM (mJUSR)

109 "OT: Cops shot and killed a black male teenager in Madison, WI last night.

"Young black male acting a bit crazy." "Attacked a Burrito Drive
delivery
person, then attacked a couple in their house, and was rolling
around on the
ground." "attacked a cop."

Yes, the cops were racist. I see white people doing this all he time and they NEVER get shot by the police..

Posted by: George Orwell de Leon at March 07, 2015 10:19 AM (1BQGO)

110 One major thing that I haven't seen mentioned is that what Medicare pays providers is so low that they lose money on each patient.


****


That's okay, Aviator, you know we're going to make up for it in volume!

Posted by: Muldoon, a solid man at March 07, 2015 10:19 AM (NeFrd)

111 Healthcare costs are being driven by lawfare.
Posted by: Vic
--------------------

To no small extent, but compensation of workers and facility costs (equipment, instruments, etc) have soared out of all proportion to inflation.

It's analogous to higher ed costs. Isolate the payer from the payee, and, surprise!, the payee learns that they can pad up their compensation.

Posted by: Mike hammer, etc., etc. at March 07, 2015 10:19 AM (l1zOH)

112 102 That is one driver of costs, but certainly not the only one or the biggest one.


Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo at March 07, 2015 10:16 AM (Zu3d9)


I say it is the biggest driver of cost increases. In both direct costs from BS civil suits and indirect costs for all those unnecessary "don't sue me" tests that are run.

Posted by: Vic at March 07, 2015 10:20 AM (wlDny)

113 Regarding the 138% of poverty level qualification, with 16k/year for a
single person, you can live in freaking San Diego on $1350 per month -
not well, but that's in San Diego. Ohio for instance is a different
story. 16k per year is less than a minimum wage job's take-home - you
won't be paying income taxes (and keep EITC in mind), and most
importantly, there's a synergy with all of these benefits that savvy
ACORN types can employ to turn your 16k into a lot more "real" money in
terms of purchasing power - food stamps, rent subsidies, etc... Even if
you just lower your rent and get food stamps, all of a sudden you're
eating steak, you have a car with gas and insurance, full cable and a
flat screen, and a bunch of other things that poor people everywhere
outside the welfare slough that is the West

This is what we mean
by "middle class welfare." If you have money left over after paying
for rent, your car, full utilities including cable/broadband and your
Obamaphone, good food, and free healthcare, in what sense are you "poor"
? You can't save anything, but the Nanny State doesn't want you to
anyway. They like you being a dependent cog in the "public-private
partnership" that is our oligarchy.

At the very least, welfare
should require you to work full time hours doing freaking something, if
only counting paper clips or digging holes then filling them back up.
That puts some level of sweat equity into the equation - a "moral
hazard" for dependency. It promotes the psychological and spiritual
health of the recipient - if you don't work, you don't eat. And make
even workfare short term - build in disincentives to longer-term
dependency (e.g. making people relocate to cheaper areas to work
crappier jobs with longer hours). Nothing coerced here - you're welcome
to leave the system at any time, if you don't want the restrictions,
don't ask for the money.

Also, in my "social safety net," net
dependents (those who take more than they put in, public money wise)
wouldn't be able to vote. Once again, if you would rather vote, you're
welcome to support yourself as you should anyway and not take the
money. And it would put a kill switch on the "democracy collapses when a
majority realizes it can vote away other people's money" problem that
the West is dying from right now.

Posted by: SocietyIs2Blame at March 07, 2015 10:20 AM (QKIQb)

114 So is Muldoon one of those amputation-lovin' doctors we've heard so much about?!

Posted by: Y-not at March 07, 2015 10:20 AM (9BRsg)

115 Posted by: The Great White Snark at March 07, 2015 10:13 AM (LImiJ)
---
Congratulations on your new audiobook, Snark!

Sounds like a 12-step program. "Taking personal inventory" is what gets you in trouble in the first place!

Posted by: All Hail Eris at March 07, 2015 10:20 AM (KH1sk)

116 "Don't think that everyone in healthcare is an angel. "


I don't think anyone does. That's why you go for a second or third or fourth opinion. The market, you see. Something not afforded by the government option which say's "Shut up and sit down."

Shitty doctor. Bad decisions? Government healthcare. Choice has little in the matter.

Posted by: Ricardo Kill at March 07, 2015 10:20 AM (vvS6Q)

117 My mother is primary caretaker for my grandmother who is in good health but has lost her memory to Alzheimers.

Before this year the city/state sent a nurse once a week. Now suddenly it's that nurse, plus a dr visit to the house weekly, plus a "hospice" nurse three times a week.

They don't really help all that much except it's nice to have people visit (really more of an added stress).

Yay PPACA!

Posted by: BlackOrchidPhotobomb at March 07, 2015 10:21 AM (mJUSR)

118 What is the point of having health care "coverage"
if the coverage doesn't allow you to see a doctor, or at least, not a
competent doctor.

Posted by: TrivialPursuer at March 07, 2015 09:21 AM (lmdHn)
**********************

Hear, hear! Why is the debate all about health insurance instead of about health care?

Posted by: LCMS Rulz! at March 07, 2015 10:21 AM (TqyFL)

119 >>That's okay, Aviator, you know we're going to make up for it in volume!

Posted by: Muldoon, a solid man

I actually heard a dumb fu*k stand up at a meeting and say that one day.

Posted by: Aviator at March 07, 2015 10:21 AM (sQzB6)

120 Nothing coerced here - you're welcome

to leave the system at any time, if you don't want the restrictions,

don't ask for the money.


But, but, but.....what about their dignity?

Posted by: pep at March 07, 2015 10:21 AM (4nR9/)

121 "...poor people everywhere
outside the welfare slough that is the West would love to have."

Thanks for ganking my formatting, Firefox. I denounce myself for the content.

Posted by: SocietyIs2Blame at March 07, 2015 10:22 AM (QKIQb)

122
Vic says:

Healthcare costs are being driven by lawfare.

Back when I was building my first real nest egg I stupidly took every test the doc ordered for me.

$14,000 later I found out that I had high cholesterol. And an empty bank account.

A little later I also found out that the doc was notorious for over testing in order to prevent malpractice suits. She married a former podiatrist who lost his license to malpractice (and also screwed up my sister's foot). That podiatrist is now a lawyer - it looks like he learned his lesson well.

Posted by: Ed Anger at March 07, 2015 10:22 AM (RcpcZ)

123 The Market is what is needed.

Everything else is bullshit used to grab power and money.

Posted by: eman at March 07, 2015 10:22 AM (MQEz6)

124 82
Technological advances in healthcare supposedly drive costs, but that is not true in any other system. Your current TV is far better and does many more things than your TV from 1973, and it is much cheaper! Telecommunications, transportation, etc. All have had huge leaps in technology without the explosion in costs that healthcare has suffered.

Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo at March 07, 2015 10:08 AM (Zu3d9)



Note also the warnings that FCC regulation of the internet will have the effect of stifling innovation.

jwest has a point. I don't know whether his figure of 50% is correct, but a whopping huge portion of healthcare spending occurs in the last year of a person's life. Hell, maybe even the last six months. Heroic measures and expensive new drugs are employed in an effort to stave off the inevitable, and only result in a few more months of life for a person who is desperately sick and suffering.

Ultimately, there are only two ways to lower healthcare costs: Free market competition or government rationing, aka death panels.

Obviously (to me at least), the free market is the way to go. Not only will competition lower costs, but it will have the added benefit of spurring innovation, which actually will prolong life for more and more people.

I don't know how to go about untangling the labyrinth of regulation that has grown up around the heath care industry since the 1940s, though.

Posted by: rickl at March 07, 2015 10:22 AM (sdi6R)

125 107 If you all will excuse me, I have to leave early for work to allow extra time for stepping over all the dead and dying in the parking lot at the hospital...


...Oh, wait, my bad, just a bunch of straw men.
Posted by: Muldoon, a solid man at March 07, 2015 10:17 AM (NeFrd)

Make sure to lop off some feet and tonsils on the way in. I hear there's a bounty on those.

Posted by: Insomniac at March 07, 2015 10:23 AM (mx5oN)

126 It has not been 30 years since that mass conversion.


Posted by: Vic at March 07, 2015 10:17 AM (wlDny)

Carol Campbell started the conversion in 1987. OK, not quite 30 years.
Still, name a House or Senate member that was a democrat before he became a Republican. I am not aware of any that were elected as democrats.

Posted by: Nip Sip at March 07, 2015 10:23 AM (0FSuD)

127 I say it is the biggest driver of cost increases.

Posted by: Vic at March 07, 2015 10:20 AM (wlDny)

I say it isn't.

Cost increases are primarily regulation-driven.

Freely stated...freely denied.


Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo at March 07, 2015 10:24 AM (Zu3d9)

128 I actually heard a dumb fu*k stand up at a meeting and say that one day.


Posted by: Aviator at March 07, 2015 10:21 AM (sQzB6)


****

Let me guess, mid level hospital administrator type? Or CFO?

Posted by: Muldoon, a solid man at March 07, 2015 10:24 AM (NeFrd)

129 >>>...Oh, wait, my bad, just a bunch of straw men.


hear you can make bank on lopping off some feet

Posted by: Bigby's Knuckle Sandwich at March 07, 2015 10:24 AM (Cq0oW)

130 Getting the government involved simply ensures that price will rise and the market will become unbalanced.

More even most, people would be able to afford the cost of medical care (note, not insurance) if the government did absolutely nothing.

Posted by: Zap Rowsdower at March 07, 2015 10:25 AM (MMC8r)

131 Insomniac- I responded to your comment about the lady who "dies" 36 times a year. Back in the dead thread.

Posted by: Muldoon, a solid man at March 07, 2015 10:26 AM (NeFrd)

132 130
Getting the government involved simply ensures that price will rise and the market will become unbalanced.


That's not true.


**cough**

Posted by: Universities at March 07, 2015 10:26 AM (4nR9/)

133 Got ripped off by my grifter family and the grifters in DC. Just tiring.

Posted by: Baldy at March 07, 2015 10:27 AM (sEXjW)

134 Posted by: Zap Rowsdower at March 07, 2015 10:25 AM (MMC8r)

The reality of a market-driven pricing structure is that it rations healthcare, only it does it fairly by allowing everyone to participate in the decisions.

Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo at March 07, 2015 10:29 AM (Zu3d9)

135 jwest is the Granny Slayer.

He wants all to gather together and pay to help sick and injured young productive or potentially productive folks, and then gather together to snuff expensively sick old and useless folks.

Socialism does this with everything it touches.

Collectivization leads to high costs and lack of production which leads to shortages which leads to rationing which leads to the stuff of nightmares.

Posted by: eman at March 07, 2015 10:31 AM (MQEz6)

136 Is your dog's cancer treatable, baldy?

Posted by: Y-not at March 07, 2015 10:31 AM (9BRsg)

137 no wait i bet muldoon chose some loser specialty like cardiology and missed out on the sweet amputation payola

Posted by: Bigby's Knuckle Sandwich at March 07, 2015 10:31 AM (Cq0oW)

138 The Market is what is needed.

Everything else is bullshit used to grab power and money.

Posted by: eman
------------------------------

It is wonderfully efficient.

Posted by: Mike hammer, etc., etc. at March 07, 2015 10:31 AM (vPh3W)

139 Pretty much everyone here - hell, everyone in the nation - agrees that providing health insurance to the indigent is a government function.

Why?

Hospitals have priced indigent care into their pricing models; physicians have similarly done so; and both parties get tax write-offs for charitable services. Why is health insurance, why is health care, a government function at all?

Posted by: I lurk, therefore I amn't at March 07, 2015 10:32 AM (TqyFL)

140 I'm pretty sure that everything would be much better if we paid politicians more.
/s

Posted by: Y-not at March 07, 2015 10:32 AM (9BRsg)

141 >>jwest has a point. I don't know whether his figure of 50% is correct,
but a whopping huge portion of healthcare spending occurs in the last
year of a person's life. Hell, maybe even the last six months. Heroic
measures and expensive new drugs are employed in an effort to stave off
the inevitable, and only result in a few more months of life for a
person who is desperately sick and suffering.




I deal with critically ill patients all the time. I have found that most families are pretty rational about when to cease extraordinary measures. The worse are the multiple generation government program dependent families that simply can't imagine a problem that someone else can't fix for them. I've seen these families insist that brain dead patients be left on the ventilator until the next welfare check arrives. I've also seen physicians be accused of racism because they don't do "something" to "save" an unsalvageable dying person.

Posted by: Aviator at March 07, 2015 10:33 AM (sQzB6)

142 Collectivization leads to high costs and lack of production which leads to shortages which leads to rationing which leads to the stuff of nightmares.
Posted by: eman
---------------------------

Nonsense

Posted by: Venezuela at March 07, 2015 10:33 AM (vPh3W)

143
"Ultimately, there are only two ways to lower healthcare costs: Free market competition or government rationing, aka death panels."

Posted by: rickl at March 07, 2015 10:22 AM (sdi6R)


What I propose is that the government establish what they cover and how much they will pay, then everything else is up to the individual.

In exchange for giving the liberals "free" universal catastrophic coverage, I want all non-catastrophic paid directly from the customer to the provider out of a dedicated Individual Health Care Account, using a credit card type system.

The cards will track the procedure that is being paid for and the amount, then the results would be available on the internet based on zip codes.

So, if you need a boil removed from your ass or a stent for your heart, you look up the procedure on Google within a 100 (or whatever) radius from your home and see what the doctors charge.

Pick the one you want, cheap or expensive, it comes out of your personal account. If it's a catastrophic procedure that's covered, the government will reimburse your account the amount it has determined. You decide if you want to make up the difference between the low priced doctor and the high priced one.

Posted by: jwest at March 07, 2015 10:33 AM (9ZZd+)

144 Posted by: Muldoon, a solid man at March 07, 2015 10:26 AM (NeFrd)

OK, read your comment. Is it that they're overstating what's actually happening to this lady?

Posted by: Insomniac at March 07, 2015 10:33 AM (mx5oN)

145 Medicaid is a fucking disaster. I've been in Pharma/devices for 18 years and I've seen first hand what a shitshow it has become.

Posted by: Timon at March 07, 2015 10:34 AM (Qu8sF)

146 While we're on the topic, I would point out that the trope about "buying insurance across state lines" is not necessarily the fix-all that the GOP would like to believe. If there were an active thriving private market for individual insurance perhaps, but in the current regulatory environment there is little to no incentive for small insurance companies to even try to enter the market. Traditionally state insurance boards have determined what qualifies as an adequate insurance plan, many states have huge numbers of mandated coverages and also mandate coverage despite pre-existing conditions and community rating price structures, leaving very few companies doing business in those states (Hawaii and Vermont jump to mind off the top of my head, IIANM).

Opening up insurance sales across state lines would, I suspect, open up the entire market place to more federal regulatory oversight (see PPACA) --> growing the federal power, shrinking states' rights even more.

Posted by: Muldoon, a solid man at March 07, 2015 10:35 AM (NeFrd)

147 140 I'm pretty sure that everything would be much better if we paid politicians more.
/s


Posted by: Y-not at March 07, 2015 10:32 AM (9BRsg)


That's a far smarter statement than apparently you will ever know.

Posted by: jwest at March 07, 2015 10:35 AM (9ZZd+)

148 Ynot you are a saint to go to the trouble of providing this info. Thank you!!!!

Posted by: phxazgrl at March 07, 2015 10:35 AM (pbzJ5)

149 Hospitals have priced indigent care into their pricing models; physicians have similarly done so; and both parties get tax write-offs for charitable services. Why is health insurance, why is health care, a government function at all?
Posted by: I lurk,
-----------------------------

Power seeking politicians? Just a guess.

Posted by: Mike hammer, etc., etc. at March 07, 2015 10:35 AM (vPh3W)

150 Because they want your money. You will pay, and pay, and pay. Yet you will be denied, denied, denied.
Whey you object you will be carted off to a FEMA camp and all you assets will be taken in civil forfeiture.

Posted by: OSTB at March 07, 2015 10:35 AM (ShdUd)

151 The purpose of Medicaid is to buy votes.

Posted by: eman at March 07, 2015 10:35 AM (MQEz6)

152 The "lawfare" portion of healthcare costs is significant, but no way is it the majority driver. I'd point at the broken pricing mechanism, third-party payors and massive bureaucracy first.

The other thing to consider about "lawfare" is that doctors, hospitals and other providers do need to be accountable when they screw up or worse yet willfully screw people over. Every reform you can suggest will have a flip side that screws over a class of people who won't be made whole for those wrongs and it will create a legal immunity, threshold or other "blind spot" that bad operators can exploit to their advantage. Our legal system is a lot like democracy - it's the worst thing except for all the alternatives. It's full of bullshit and needs a lot of reform, but measure twice, cut once when you're reforming. I'd suggest that rather than denying people their day in court or capping what plaintiffs can get money-wise (which creates a "you're better off backing over the patient and killing him than leaving him alive" style dilemma), we look at making liability more predictable, reducing the costs of lawsuits themselves (not the payouts to patients but the thousands paid to experts and lawyers including myself), and doing payouts over the lifetime of the patient rather than as lump sums (something CA already does - our reforms are 40 years old and mostly bad, but periodic payouts that terminate on the patient's death are a workable idea that's part of that).

Posted by: SocietyIs2Blame at March 07, 2015 10:35 AM (QKIQb)

153
I didnt read the piece but if youre referring to th crock of shit where people "die" and then came back to lfe, I concur.

"I died on the operating table for 2 minutes."

No, you farking didn't!

Posted by: please dont squeeze the soothie at March 07, 2015 10:36 AM (Gx7Uw)

154 "Hear, hear! Why is the debate all about health insurance instead of about health care?"

It's
not just health care. It should be about good health. In most cases
this has to do with living a healthy lifestyle. No drugs, eat and drink
in moderation and exercise. People should do these things on their own
without govt. guidelines, nutrition labels, food pyramids and the rest
of the govt health-medical advice complex. Everybody knows what they
should be doing but make excuses. Do those things above and you reduce
your chances of major medical problems by huge amounts and the need to
go to the doctor and insurance to pay for it all. So many people have
it upside down and think health insurance =healthcare = good health. They are sadly mistaken.

And yes I understand people are born with problems or develop them
despite healthy lifestyle. Those are the people that need
insurance/health plans/govt assistance.

Posted by: George Orwell de Leon at March 07, 2015 10:36 AM (1BQGO)

155 147
140 I'm pretty sure that everything would be much better if we paid politicians more.

/s





Posted by: Y-not at March 07, 2015 10:32 AM (9BRsg)

State Reps in NY make over a $100K. In NC? $16K. Who has more corruption?



Guess. I take NY for a $1000, Alex

Posted by: Nip Sip at March 07, 2015 10:37 AM (0FSuD)

156 >>Hospitals have priced indigent care into their
pricing models; physicians have similarly done so; and both parties get
tax write-offs for charitable services.


Posted by: I lurk, therefore I amn't


That is simply not the way it works. If the government had not distorted the market it would.

Posted by: Aviator at March 07, 2015 10:37 AM (sQzB6)

157 That's a far smarter statement than apparently you will ever know.
Posted by: jwest at March 07, 2015 10:35 AM
---

Oh, I'm well-aware of your views about underpaid politicians.

Posted by: Y-not at March 07, 2015 10:38 AM (9BRsg)

158 OK, read your comment. Is it that they're overstating what's actually happening to this lady?

Posted by: Insomniac at March 07, 2015 10:33 AM (mx5oN)


*****


Yes. You'll notice there is absolutely no input into the story from an actual medical provider. This is all self-reported crap from this patient. This type of symptom is what I deal with every day. There are so many discrepancies in that story that it was, to me, laughable. If her heart were truly stopping, I would not be laughing at her plight.

Posted by: Muldoon, a solid man at March 07, 2015 10:38 AM (NeFrd)

159 Opening up insurance sales across state lines would,
I suspect, open up the entire market place to more federal regulatory
oversight (see PPACA) --> growing the federal power, shrinking
states' rights even more.

Posted by: Muldoon, a solid man at March 07, 2015 10:35 AM (NeFrd)

Gee, thanks. That hadn't occurred to me.

I think I'm going to slit my wrists.

Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo at March 07, 2015 10:39 AM (Zu3d9)

160 The other thing to consider about "lawfare" is that doctors, hospitals
and other providers do need to be accountable when they screw up or
worse yet willfully screw people over. Every reform you can suggest will
have a flip side that screws over a class of people who won't be made
whole for those wrongs and it will create a legal immunity, threshold or
other "blind spot" that bad operators can exploit to their advantage.
Our legal system is a lot like democracy - it's the worst thing except
for all the alternatives.



The States that have placed caps on civil suit payouts have not had a problem with that and their healthcare costs have seen lower increases than others . . . up until Obamacare was passed.

Posted by: Vic at March 07, 2015 10:39 AM (wlDny)

161 I'm pretty sure that everything would be much better if we paid politicians more.

-
And let them steal more.

Posted by: The Great White Snark at March 07, 2015 10:40 AM (LImiJ)

162 BTW, folks, in case you didn't realize it, jwest is Jim Moran:

http://tinyurl.com/kwv97st

Posted by: Y-not at March 07, 2015 10:40 AM (9BRsg)

163 That's a far smarter statement than apparently you will ever know.

Posted by: jwest at March 07, 2015 10:35 AM (9ZZd+)

You are far more pompous and far stupider than you will ever know.

Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo at March 07, 2015 10:41 AM (Zu3d9)

164 My discussions about health care usually start with "I caught it from the toilet seat".

Posted by: Ed Anger at March 07, 2015 10:41 AM (RcpcZ)

165 "I find this talk of Fiorina as being somehow a legitimate option really offensive."

I thought she fell flat at FedSoc last November, but others insist she can give a good speech. Haven't seen it yet though.

Posted by: Knemon at March 07, 2015 10:41 AM (JlNQG)

166 Tis a Hydra with many heads all intent upon entangling and controlling.

Posted by: Anna Puma at March 07, 2015 10:41 AM (644qL)

167 >>BTW, folks, in case you didn't realize it, jwest is Jim Moran:


Thanks.
I thought he was just a random asshat politician.

Posted by: Aviator at March 07, 2015 10:41 AM (sQzB6)

168 Biggest joke. "Federal dollars". It all unravels with those two words. now mo' coffee.

morning.

Posted by: Badda Bing at March 07, 2015 10:42 AM (JgQLj)

169 If there were an active thriving private market for individual insurance perhaps, but in the current regulatory environment there is little to no incentive for small insurance companies to even try to enter the market. Traditionally state insurance boards have determined what qualifies as an adequate insurance plan, many states have huge numbers of mandated coverages and also mandate coverage despite pre-existing conditions and community rating price structures, leaving very few companies doing business in those states (Hawaii and Vermont jump to mind off the top of my head, IIANM).

This is not entirely true. There's at least one company that has expanded, recently, as an alternative to Obamacare, into, IIRC, 35 states. Plus, if all of the traditional major carriers lost their pee pee kaka (PPACA) risk corridor subsidies, they'd dust off the plans they were selling 2 years ago and rehire the underwriting department right quick.

Posted by: Weirddave at March 07, 2015 10:43 AM (NVmJr)

170 "Oh, I'm well-aware of your views about underpaid politicians."


If we could just make them millionaire overlords the country would be fantastic.

Posted by: Ricardo Kill at March 07, 2015 10:43 AM (vvS6Q)

171 "They're thinking of a time when the average man lived to about 58 and
the biggest expense in a hospital was providing a bed for a night."

But surely the technological and other resources available to private/charitable institutions have advanced at least as much as those available to the public safety net?

Posted by: Knemon at March 07, 2015 10:43 AM (JlNQG)

172 I thought she fell flat at FedSoc last November, but others insist she can give a good speech. Haven't seen it yet though.
--

I read that she did well at CPAC. OTOH, the cheerleading squads are in full swing and she is clearly the Lady Parts Candidate of Choice for the corporatists in the GOP, so who knows. I didn't watch it.

Maybe we can do a roundup of CPAC speeches next week.

Posted by: Y-not at March 07, 2015 10:43 AM (9BRsg)

173 Posted by: Y-not at March 07, 2015 10:31 AM (9BRsg) - Waiting for biopsy. Vet was pretty sure it was cancer, implied it is pretty advanced. My mom owns the dog and will probably not pay for treatment. I have no $$$ Dog is 10+ years old, so I would not want her to suffer.

Posted by: Baldy at March 07, 2015 10:44 AM (sEXjW)

174 no wait i bet muldoon chose some loser specialty like cardiology and missed out on the sweet amputation payola

****


In the new economy (TM) you can bet that I'll be a loppin' and amputatin' to beat the band. Chickens on the barrelhead my friend. Payment up front.

Posted by: Muldoon, a solid man at March 07, 2015 10:44 AM (NeFrd)

175 Posted by: Muldoon, a solid man at March 07, 2015 10:38 AM (NeFrd)

Gotcha. Thanks for the insight on that.

Posted by: Insomniac at March 07, 2015 10:45 AM (mx5oN)

176 Every dollar you pay in pays for your healthcare.

It also pays for people who don't pay in at all, or barely do.

It pays for people doing all the compliance paperwork for the government and for insurance billing. It pays for all the same people on the receiving end in the insurance industry.

It pays lawyers, settlements, awards, and additional insurance for malpractice and on every drug, device, procedure, and person involved in delivery.

The cost of 'healthcare' is a fraction of the cost that we're really paying-- that of the Healthcare Industry and all the surrounding ones.

Posted by: Zap Rowsdower at March 07, 2015 10:45 AM (MMC8r)

177 Waiting for biopsy. Vet was pretty sure it was cancer, implied it is pretty advanced.
---

Well, I'm really sorry for you and your mom. Maybe you'll get lucky and it will wind up being a lipoma.

It sounds like you've been having a bad run of luck. 'Hope things improve for you!

Posted by: Y-not at March 07, 2015 10:46 AM (9BRsg)

178 I see jwurst is still casting swine before pearls.

Posted by: Anna Puma at March 07, 2015 10:46 AM (644qL)

179 "In the new economy (TM) you can bet that I'll be a loppin' and
amputatin' to beat the band. Chickens on the barrelhead my friend.
Payment up front."


Please don't cut off my leg. Ya know, just for the Hell of it.

Posted by: Ricardo Kill at March 07, 2015 10:46 AM (vvS6Q)

180 Women cost more than men....about 1/3 more in total healthcare costs.

about 60% of total healthcare costs are spent after age 65.

Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo at March 07, 2015 10:46 AM (Zu3d9)

181 On the candidates, in my ever-growing list of potential deal-breakers, anyone who plays ball with DC on medical subsidies is off the list. If someone lacks the fi-con common sense to know that those checks are like Mafia money, they don't have the mindset I want for a politician. Good job Walker, Jindal, Perry and Cruz, and probably Haley. I have other things I'm skeptical on with each one, but every one of these candidates is less worse than the others for the most part on those as well - not surprising in that I'm trying to litmus test them for overall conservative sensibilities and consistency.

Posted by: SocietyIs2Blame at March 07, 2015 10:46 AM (QKIQb)

182 Oh forgot. Y-Not very nicely done. Thank you much for all your hard work. It gives me ammo when talking to lib relatives (which I try not to do) and hopefully gives me a few sentences to deliver before I give up and say "you're just an idiot". coffee.

Posted by: Badda Bing at March 07, 2015 10:47 AM (JgQLj)

183 No such thing as "Federal Dollars" That is money that take from us by force and use as they please.
I heard a politician tell the truth once. Really. and it was N.P. Stop laughing. She said "We don't care what the people want."

Posted by: OSTB at March 07, 2015 10:47 AM (ShdUd)

184 Plus, if all of the traditional major carriers lost their pee pee kaka

Posted by: Weirddave at March 07, 2015 10:43 AM (NVmJr)


****

That's a mighty big IF you're sporting there son!


Kidding aside, you are right, I think, that if there's a buck to be made that insurance companies will find a way to make it. My main point was that "selling insurance across state lines" has become something of a talking point for the GOP and there are just so many other pieces to that puzzle that are not likely to fall into place.

Posted by: Muldoon, a solid man at March 07, 2015 10:48 AM (NeFrd)

185 Payment up front.

Posted by: Muldoon, a solid man at March 07, 2015 10:44 AM (NeFrd)

Spent 15 minutes with my cardiologist yesterday. Great guy, well trained, immensely entertaining.

His reimbursement from my very good insurance?

$54.17

And people wonder why we have a projected shortage of MDs?

Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo at March 07, 2015 10:49 AM (Zu3d9)

186 161 "I'm pretty sure that everything would be much better if we paid politicians more. "


Imagine you are a congressman or senator.

Imagine that you are going to make 175K a year whether you are there or not, whether you spend the public's money prudently or not, whether you say yes to every stupid program that makes some group happy or not.

Now, imagine that you are offered 500K a year, along with a 500K bonus if you and your fellow congressmen deliver a balanced budget less than 20% of GDP on time.

Do you think you might put in a few extra hours looking for ineffective programs to dump? Are there some interest groups that might not get their program funded because there just isn't enough money? Do you think the other side will be more willing to work with you to find areas of the budget that can be reduced?

Saving hundreds of billions for a few billion in a pay package.

That's what being a conservative is all about.

Posted by: jwest at March 07, 2015 10:49 AM (9ZZd+)

187 "We don't care what the people want."


The people? Screw 'em. The governing class has to taken care of. Assuaged. Comforted.

Posted by: Ricardo Kill at March 07, 2015 10:50 AM (vvS6Q)

188 Muldoon, you're right, "across state lines" is good, and would be helpful, but it's a starting point, not an endpoint. My assumption is that this is in the context of replacing PPACA, which would kill the rent seekers' rent.

Posted by: Weirddave at March 07, 2015 10:50 AM (NVmJr)

189 >>My main point was that "selling insurance across
state lines" has become something of a talking point for the GOP ....

Posted by: Muldoon, a solid man

I think that line has become simplistic shorthand for "allow the free market to function to at least some degree". Well I hope that anyway.

Posted by: Aviator at March 07, 2015 10:51 AM (sQzB6)

190 No such thing as "Federal Dollars" That is money that take from us by force and use as they please.

Bingo. This is something that annoys me about the Medicaid expansion debate. There isn't some magical supply of extra "federal" money. It's money that was confiscated at gunpoint from the States' citizens, and then dribbled back with not strings but chains attached.

Posted by: Insomniac at March 07, 2015 10:51 AM (mx5oN)

191 I think I'm going to slit my wrists.


Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo at March 07, 2015 10:39 AM (Zu3d9)


****


That's covered under Medicaid.

Posted by: Muldoon, a solid man at March 07, 2015 10:51 AM (NeFrd)

192 OT: Remember the video where Jason shows the dragon's teeth and skeleton warriors come up from the ground? This is kind of the same except different.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=1AvM6-EE2Ww

Posted by: The Great White Snark at March 07, 2015 10:51 AM (LImiJ)

193 "Hear, hear! Why is the debate all about health insurance instead of about health care?"
-----------------------

I agree with that..., but not in the sense that you pursue.

The problem is not health insurance, it is about the skyrocketing of healthcare costs. I would maintain, again, it is because the consumers of healthcare services have been insulated from the costs.

It all began with employer-provided insurance.

Posted by: Mike hammer, etc., etc. at March 07, 2015 10:51 AM (vPh3W)

194 So for the purpose of discussion.
What would happen if power was totally transferred to the political Left.
Complete rubber stamping by the Right.
You want it?
You got it Boss. Here ya go.
Healthcare
Minimum wage
Mandated government Unions
Right to death
Unrestricted abortion access, up to the 11th trimester

And so on.
Project the state of the nation in five years.
Ten years.

Posted by: Village Idiot's Apprentice at March 07, 2015 10:52 AM (2Ri9w)

195 "The States that have placed caps on civil suit payouts have not had a
problem with that and their healthcare costs have seen lower increases
than others . . . up until Obamacare was passed."

CA caps payouts for "general" (non-wage/medical expense, pain and suffering) damages at 250k. If a doc lops off the wrong arm in your amputation, you get 250k for that. You won't have non-general damages to a significant amount - you're just a no-armed otherwise healthy guy. If he lops the other limbs off, same story - you only get 250k. If you have any lifelong painful condition that can't be effectively treated, but is just something you "live with," same story.

So how is that not a "problem" ? It's "not a problem" if you're not the guy left with no arms, but he's not real happy.

Posted by: SocietyIs2Blame at March 07, 2015 10:53 AM (QKIQb)

196 Please make the stupid stop.

I come here for not stupid and yet it seeps through.

Posted by: Ricardo Kill at March 07, 2015 10:53 AM (vvS6Q)

197 Posted by: jwest at March 07, 2015 10:49 AM (9ZZd+)

That's some really good shit you must be smoking.

Posted by: Insomniac at March 07, 2015 10:53 AM (mx5oN)

198 I think I'm going to slit my wrists.


Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo at March 07, 2015 10:39 AM (Zu3d9)


****


That's covered under Medicaid.


*****


Oh wait a second, we double checked, this falls under the Death Panel...claim rejected!

Posted by: Muldoon, a solid man at March 07, 2015 10:53 AM (NeFrd)

199 >>That's covered under Medicaid.

Posted by: Muldoon, a solid man

But not very well.

Posted by: Aviator at March 07, 2015 10:53 AM (sQzB6)

200 I think I'm going to slit my wrists.

Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo
----------------------

I have it good authority that you received a hug from Gingy. That should stave off any such thoughts for at least year. Savor the moment.

Posted by: Mike hammer, etc., etc. at March 07, 2015 10:53 AM (vPh3W)

201 * makes note in CBD's permanent file *

Posted by: Mike hammer, etc., etc. at March 07, 2015 10:55 AM (vPh3W)

202 191 I think I'm going to slit my wrists.


Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo at March 07, 2015 10:39 AM (Zu3d9)


****


That's covered under Medicaid.
Posted by: Muldoon, a solid man at March 07, 2015 10:51 AM (NeFrd)

Fee for service only, not Medicaid HMO. Plus I think there's a nominal copay for the razor blade.

Posted by: Insomniac at March 07, 2015 10:55 AM (mx5oN)

203 180 about 60% of total healthcare costs are spent after age 65.


Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo at March 07, 2015 10:46 AM (Zu3d9)


In my case it was at 51. I didn't even have a regular doctor until I had my heart attack at 51. Now I have 5. And I am on first name basis at the drug store.

My wife is on first name basis with every doctor in a 50 mile radius.

Posted by: Vic at March 07, 2015 10:55 AM (wlDny)

204 "So for the purpose of discussion.

What would happen if power was totally transferred to the political Left.

Complete rubber stamping by the Right.

You want it?

You got it Boss. Here ya go.

Healthcare

Minimum wage

Mandated government Unions

Right to death

Unrestricted abortion access, up to the 11th trimester
"



Damn straight.

Posted by: Johnny "Cheeto" Boner at March 07, 2015 10:55 AM (vvS6Q)

205 Y-not, Fiorina does perform one service: any criticism of Clinton's supposed accomplishments is automatically seen as sexist, and her ladybits shield her somewhat from that. She will of course be called a traitor to her sex by the libs, but I think Carly's thunderpunching of Hillary's globetrotting and laughable attempts to corral Putin were met with applause because other politicians really haven't been going after Hillary (this is pre-email fracas).

Posted by: All Hail Eris at March 07, 2015 10:56 AM (KH1sk)

206 "The States that have placed caps on civil suit payouts have not had a

problem with that and their healthcare costs have seen lower increases

than others . . . up until Obamacare was passed."

If you capped all awards at ten thousand dollars, we'd save a whole lot more money. My point is that you're asking the victims to pay a helluva hidden tax/subsidy to keep health costs down, not that caps don't reduce costs.

Posted by: SocietyIs2Blame at March 07, 2015 10:56 AM (QKIQb)

207 Nood

Posted by: Vic at March 07, 2015 10:56 AM (wlDny)

208 Damn, I miss the threads where I don't know anything about the topic at hand and can just make wisecracks.


later gators!

Posted by: Muldoon, a solid man at March 07, 2015 10:56 AM (NeFrd)

209 The people? Screw 'em. The governing class has to taken care of. Assuaged. Comforted.

-
A guy called into Bill Bennett a few days ago. He was a DHS employee and firmly believed there needed to be a clean bill because otherwise he might be laid off. Yeah, the purpose of government is to make sure things are sweet for government employees.

Posted by: The Great White Snark at March 07, 2015 10:57 AM (LImiJ)

210 154
It's not just health care. It should be about good health. In most cases this has to do with living a healthy lifestyle. No drugs, eat and drink in moderation and exercise. People should do these things on their own without govt. guidelines, nutrition labels, food pyramids and the rest of the govt health-medical advice complex.

Posted by: George Orwell de Leon at March 07, 2015 10:36 AM (1BQGO)



Not only that, but it's becoming increasingly apparent that much of the government's nutritional advice over the last 40 years is not only wrong, it's had catastrophic effects on people's health.

Posted by: rickl at March 07, 2015 10:57 AM (sdi6R)

211 Damn straight.

Posted by: Johnny
------------------------

I just posted a *very* pointed letter to my Rep regarding you. CC'd it to my two Senators also.

Posted by: Mike hammer, etc., etc. at March 07, 2015 10:57 AM (vPh3W)

212 Not only that, but it's becoming increasingly apparent that much of the government's nutritional advice over the last 40 years is not only wrong, it's had catastrophic effects on people's health.
Posted by: rickl
----------------------

Too much cheese?

Posted by: Mike hammer, etc., etc. at March 07, 2015 10:58 AM (vPh3W)

213 Clearly, the more government intrudes on the free market, the more distorted that market becomes. So it seems likely that the goal of government towards "health care" is to make the system unworkable, and unfixable.

The solution is, of course, absolute government control or health care, from cradle to grave. With all the restrictions on personal behavior that comes with collective responsibility.

We're just going through that "transition phase" the president said would need to happen between a private market and single payer. All of this is designed to fail, and be expensive while it does so. The better to get the masses clamoring for Moar Reform!

It was enough trying to process this post. I can't imagine how much time and effort goes into trying to comply with the mounds of regs for those inside the industry.

Posted by: OneEyedJack at March 07, 2015 10:58 AM (XmOA9)

214
His reimbursement from my very good insurance?

$54.17


But the top-line price was probably something like $489.72.

Then the 'discounts' kick in, down and down, until the actual payment is the $54.17.

It's a shell game. There's no honest pricing in the system, which just obscures real costs and makes it all seem too expensive for you to do out of pocket, thus protecting the Big Industry.

Meanwhile, instead of paying the insurance company big money every month to cling to the policy, you could have paid the $54 right to the doctor, in cash, and saved subsidizing all the other layers of the Industry.

Posted by: Zap Rowsdower at March 07, 2015 10:59 AM (MMC8r)

215 212 Not only that, but it's becoming increasingly apparent that much of the government's nutritional advice over the last 40 years is not only wrong, it's had catastrophic effects on people's health.
Posted by: rickl
----------------------

Too much cheese?
Posted by: Mike hammer, etc., etc. at March 07, 2015 10:58 AM (vPh3W)

Too much government cheese.

Posted by: Insomniac at March 07, 2015 10:59 AM (mx5oN)

216 My wife is on first name basis with every doctor in a 50 mile radius.

Posted by: Vic at March 07, 2015 10:55 AM (wlDny)

But the point is that healthcare is obviously needed more as we age. This is both intuitive and backed up by data.

The stupidity (or at least one) of jwest's argument is that when we need it most, we will have it rationed.

Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo at March 07, 2015 10:59 AM (Zu3d9)

217 >>My point is that you're asking the victims to pay a
helluva hidden tax/subsidy to keep health costs down, not that caps
don't reduce costs.


Posted by: SocietyIs2Blame

Actually, the real loser is the plaintiff's bar. There are ways to compensate patients who are truly harmed that exclude huge payouts to lawyers. Oddly, the plaintiff attorneys have fought any such reforms.

Posted by: Aviator at March 07, 2015 11:00 AM (sQzB6)

218 204
Try not looking on the bright side. At least go from the good parts to the average parts. Won't get better than that.

Posted by: OSTB at March 07, 2015 11:00 AM (ShdUd)

219 Oddly, the plaintiff attorneys have fought any such reforms.
Posted by: Aviator
---------------------

* scratches head *

Why, it's mystifying.

Posted by: Mike hammer, etc., etc. at March 07, 2015 11:01 AM (vPh3W)

220 217 >>My point is that you're asking the victims to pay a
helluva hidden tax/subsidy to keep health costs down, not that caps
don't reduce costs.


Posted by: SocietyIs2Blame

Actually, the real loser is the plaintiff's bar. There are ways to compensate patients who are truly harmed that exclude huge payouts to lawyers. Oddly, the plaintiff attorneys have fought any such reforms.
Posted by: Aviator at March 07, 2015 11:00 AM (sQzB6)

The contingency fees for PI lawyers are peanuts though compared to the class action guys.

Posted by: Insomniac at March 07, 2015 11:01 AM (mx5oN)

221 about 60% of total healthcare costs are spent after age 65.


Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo at March 07, 2015 10:46 AM (Zu3d9)

I think it is more than that. I know, now that I am on Medicare and everything is FREE, I find myself visiting the dr a lot more.

Seriously. They love a Medicare guy. We're doomed.

Posted by: Nip Sip at March 07, 2015 11:02 AM (0FSuD)

222 >>The contingency fees for PI lawyers are peanuts though compared to the class action guys.

Posted by: Insomniac


Hey, I got a check for $8 off one of those things. Reading the fine print stuff that came with it the lawyers got a bit under 300 million.

Posted by: Aviator at March 07, 2015 11:04 AM (sQzB6)

223
The contingency fees for PI lawyers are peanuts though compared to the class action guys.


Who make out like bandits compared to their plaintiffs.

Posted by: Zap Rowsdower at March 07, 2015 11:04 AM (MMC8r)

224 Oddly, the plaintiff attorneys have fought any such reforms.
Posted by: Aviator
-----------------

What are you trying to say?
Are you implying that we are conscienceless scum?

Posted by: John Edwards at March 07, 2015 11:04 AM (vPh3W)

225 The stupidity (or at least one) of jwest's argument is that when we need it most, we will have it rationed.

Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo at March 07, 2015 10:59 AM (Zu3d9)


What you continually fail to understand is that in my plan, nothing is rationed if you have money.

You want unlimited tests, procedures, drugs and care? Save your fucking money. If not, you get what the government has decided is the most effective and cost efficient.

No one under my plan is denied anything if they can pay for it. Apparently, you plan to be a sponge on society, so this worries you.

You should be worried.

Posted by: jwest at March 07, 2015 11:04 AM (9ZZd+)

226 "Actually, the real loser is the plaintiff's bar. There are ways to
compensate patients who are truly harmed that exclude huge payouts to
lawyers. Oddly, the plaintiff attorneys have fought any such reforms."

I said above I'd target reform at the costs of the system, including the legal fees (including my own).

That said, what "ways to compensate that exclude huge payouts to lawyers" are you talking about?

Arbitration - we do that already. Periodic payouts that terminate on patient's death - already do that.

The specifics are where this gets tricky.

Some of us in the profession actually put a lot of thought into how to reform it, but every good idea usually has a big downside that explains why it hasn't been implemented. It's not all about perverse incentives and greed - although most reforms that the institutional plaintiff's bar supports are usually are money-grabs, like the changes that were just rejected by voters on initiative here in CA.

Posted by: SocietyIs2Blame at March 07, 2015 11:05 AM (QKIQb)

227 Somebody's being more dickish than usual today.

Posted by: Insomniac at March 07, 2015 11:08 AM (mx5oN)

228 "The contingency fees for PI lawyers are peanuts though compared to the class action guys."

THIS.

Class action suits have the same "social leveling cost" for victims as caps impose on them. Lawyers get huge payouts, victims get forced into a ratcheted one-size-fits all compensation scheme that benefits those on the ground floor much like a pyramid scheme. They drive up costs on an institutional level, kill RD, and a host of other problems. There are situations where they are appropriate, but medical malpractice is almost never one of them.

Most class stuff in medical is attacking device manufacturers on product liability, so medical malpractice reform won't even touch those cases. I'd suggest class action reform as another good alternative to merely capping awards or giving doctors broad immunities.

Posted by: SocietyIs2Blame at March 07, 2015 11:11 AM (QKIQb)

229 I'd suggest class action reform as another good alternative to merely capping awards or giving doctors broad immunities.
Posted by: SocietyIs2Blame
----------------

Echoing an earlier poster, I receive, on average, two class-action solicitations a year. The payout to the average class member is not enough to pay for lunch. The payout to the lawyers? Millions upon millions.

Posted by: John Edwards at March 07, 2015 11:16 AM (vPh3W)

230 Finding a good venue is really the only issue. Last night's had turned into a loud mosh-pit by the time I left. I think the remaining Morons adjourned to a quieter joint.


Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo at March 07, 2015 09:55 AM (Zu3d9)


I can assure you, as witness to 100's of real mosh pits, that was no mosh pit. The yuppie/hipsters there would have died in a real mosh pit. lol

Posted by: Berserker-Dragonheads Division at March 07, 2015 11:17 AM (FMbng)

231 "There are ways to
compensate patients who are truly harmed that exclude huge payouts to
lawyers."

It's a matter of proportion. If you don't give the attorney a financial incentive, the patient won't have an attorney. Attorneys often advance costs of 50k+ in these cases. How much money would you need to stand to make before you'd decide to put down 50k of your own on a proposition that usually has less than 50% chance to pay off?

The vast majority of med mal cases don't pay off for lawyers - defense lawyers brag that they win 80%+ of the trials, and most cases that settle don't do so for even half their verdict value. One reason payouts are high is that the lawyer has to recoup costs for the 3/4 cases that don't net him significant cash. If you're successful over time, you can cherry pick cases and get a better average rate of net return, but that's at the back end of a 30 year career unless you're quite lucky to start.

Like I said, some of us think about this stuff a lot, but the realities of the system don't offer a lot of easy solutions that can be explained away by "lawyers are bad and greedy." Most are, don't get me wrong, but it's not the bumper sticker situation where "99% of lawyers make the rest of us look bad."

Posted by: SocietyIs2Blame at March 07, 2015 11:18 AM (QKIQb)

232 Most class stuff in medical is attacking device
manufacturers on product liability, so medical malpractice reform won't
even touch those cases. I'd suggest class action reform as another good
alternative to merely capping awards or giving doctors broad immunities.


Posted by: SocietyIs2Blame at March 07, 2015 11:11 AM (QKIQb)


The easiest thing to do would be to limit lawyers to a maximum of 10% of the money awarded. They do this for a lot of other industries so why not lawyers.

Answer: lawyers make the laws.

Posted by: Vic at March 07, 2015 11:18 AM (wlDny)

233 143
What I propose is that the government establish what they cover and how much they will pay, then everything else is up to the individual.

In exchange for giving the liberals "free" universal catastrophic coverage, I want all non-catastrophic paid directly from the customer to the provider out of a dedicated Individual Health Care Account, using a credit card type system.

Posted by: jwest at March 07, 2015 10:33 AM (9ZZd+)



I wouldn't even go that far. I don't think the government should guarantee anything. Indigent people should rely on private charity. That worked fine in the past before the government got involved. Some doctors voluntarily provided discounted or even pro bono care for those who couldn't afford it.

One of the regulations that needs to be done away with is EMTALA, which was passed in the 1980s and says that hospitals cannot turn anybody away due to inability to pay. That has led to the spectacle of illegals clogging up emergency rooms for a case of the sniffles. The cost of their care has to be paid by someone.

To illustrate how absurd this is, suppose I went to the supermarket and told them I didn't have any money but wanted some food anyway. They would tell me to get lost. But if health care is a "right", then so is food.

Posted by: rickl at March 07, 2015 11:19 AM (sdi6R)

234 This whole health insurance debates are not going to be settled until we actually define what we're dealing with. We are not, for the most part, dealing with health insurance. We're dealing with mandated buyer's clubs. Which buyer's club do you want to join? And, by the way, you must choose one under penalty of law.

It stopped being insurance long ago; calling it 'insurance' is just to make it sound important. Compelling us to own 'health insurance' makes it sound critical. Compelling us to join a buyer's club would pretty much get a WTF reaction.

Posted by: I lurk, therefore I amn't at March 07, 2015 11:23 AM (TqyFL)

235 Were the cops racists?
Posted by: Ricardo Kill at March 07, 2015 09:38 AM (vvS6Q)


Duh.

Posted by: jwpaine at March 07, 2015 11:26 AM (a3NCX)

236 Posted by: Berserker-Dragonheads Division at March 07, 2015 11:17 AM (FMbng)

Yeah.....you are correct.

I am a survivor of a few real ones: Dead Kennedys...X.....

Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo at March 07, 2015 11:27 AM (Zu3d9)

237 "The easiest thing to do would be to limit lawyers to a maximum of 10% of
the money awarded. They do this for a lot of other industries so why
not lawyers."

See 231,

And yes, "They" do this for a lot of other industries. It's called Socialism. I thought we were against that around here. Who are you to tell me how much I can earn?

I'm willing to have a discussion about what I SHOULD charge in a fairly priced market, but just because you have a case of the red-ass for my profession doesn't give you the right to cap my earnings, nor frankly should you be so eager to "spread the wealth around" from my injured clients to doctors who harm them.

You could save money by capping anyone's earnings - why not tell the guys who own Ralph's to lower your food prices? What's the difference other than you don't like lawyers?

We all give and get to some extent, but you're wantonly crossing the line into coercion and price controls. That's toeing the line of the civilized bounds of discussion, at least from the right-wing perspective.


Posted by: SocietyIs2Blame at March 07, 2015 11:27 AM (QKIQb)

238 237 And yes, "They" do this for a lot of other industries. It's called
Socialism. I thought we were against that around here. Who are you to
tell me how much I can earn?
-----------------------------------------------



But it is A-OK for lawyers in the legislature to make it easy to sue anyone for anything.

Posted by: Vic at March 07, 2015 11:29 AM (wlDny)

239 "The easiest thing to do would be to limit lawyers to a maximum of 10% of

the money awarded"

A 10% cap would mean that unless your case was worth over 100k, you wouldn't get a lawyer, period.

If our system was changed (which is a reform I can support on free market grounds) - greatly simplified, with the requirements for expert testimony eliminated or loosened in many cases (once again, I'm not capping their fees, I'm just saying they don't have a captive market by requiring every plaintiff to use them), you could have people represent themselves. We could do with a vast amount of simplifying the law in general. That way I, too, would not have a captive market (people wouldn't have to hire me to prosecute a lawsuit with any chance of success) but I and my clients are still free to contract for fees as we wish. That's market-friendly legal reform, or at least a step in that direction.

What you're advocating is zero-sum, class warfare socialism - we all hate lawyers, so lets vote their money away. How is that different from Occupy Wall Street vs. the 1% ?


Posted by: SocietyIs2Blame at March 07, 2015 11:36 AM (QKIQb)

240 "But it is A-OK for lawyers in the legislature to make it easy to sue anyone for anything."

It's not. I'm all for third parties, Article V and otherwise firing those shitweasels, but all lawyers are not politicians, and you're moving the goalposts to some extent by shifting to that argument.

We're talking about capping fees and awards, and that's Socialism and Class Warfare 101.

Posted by: SocietyIs2Blame at March 07, 2015 11:38 AM (QKIQb)

241 Legislators also regulate every other industry - and pick winners and losers therein. Is that a stalking horse for you to price control them as well? You're specially pleading against lawyers because you don't like them. I get it, and I'm not all that hacked off about it - we've given people just cause for irrational animus. I'm just trying to make it clear that that's what you're doing

Posted by: SocietyIs2Blame at March 07, 2015 11:41 AM (QKIQb)

242 "A good start."

"Outta what?"

"Professional courtesy."

"Yeah, and I just graduated from law school, but you don't see me fucking the guy in line ahead of me!"

Posted by: Jokes, Lawyer, Punch Lines Only at March 07, 2015 11:41 AM (a3NCX)

243 Medicaid expansion is a band-aid to a self-inflicted injury caused by the affordable care act's outlawing of affordable catastrophic health insurance plans that low income people were once able to buy. Today, the lowest cost bronze plans are 2-3 times more expensive than the outlawed plans but the outlawed plans provided tangible benefits for the lower income groups. As a result of the affordable care act, the states not expanding medicaid have created a new problem of the lowest incomes having zero access to health insurance when they had access before. This is the dilemma for governors: as long as ACA outlaws affordable health insurance plans for poor, medicaid expansion is the only option available to provide healthcare access to the poor. Medicaid expansion is the admission of a serious flaw in the original ACA plan.

Posted by: dedomeno at March 07, 2015 11:47 AM (+D/2U)

244 One more thought then I g2g -

Lawyers aren't a classic private industry because we're tied to the system at the hip - I recognize that we're "quasi-governmental" but we're private in the most fundamental sense - those of us in private practice can't coerce anyone. Politicians can - and yes, they're most often lawyers, but until you put them in office, they're not "weaponized" lawyers. So lumping those of us who can't set our own ground rules in with them is neither logical or just.

Re: 242 - What's black and brown and looks good on a lawyer?

A Doberman.

Posted by: SocietyIs2Blame at March 07, 2015 11:47 AM (QKIQb)

245 "Medicaid expansion is a band-aid to a self-inflicted injury caused by
the affordable care act's outlawing of affordable catastrophic health
insurance plans that low income people were once able to buy."

Agreed - and those plans were already too expensive due to state mandates and other over-regulation.

Posted by: SocietyIs2Blame at March 07, 2015 11:49 AM (QKIQb)

246 Hospitals and Physicians payments are fixed. They are based on RBRVU's. They could charge a million dollars they are only going to receive what the contract with the payer for the CPT code is. Every payer pays something different based on their formula taken from the RBRVU's. When cost go up for hospitals and physicians there is no way to increase the charges to make up the difference. There isn't any market application in healthcare. As far as lawsuits they are extremely costly. Even though the doctor pays the malpractice carrier all the time he is preparing for his defense and sitting in court he isn't making money, and he can't take care of his patients. And people with brains are always looking for excuses not to serve on juries. Medicaid is a disaster and expanding it isn't the answer.

Posted by: tj at March 07, 2015 12:25 PM (FBjP7)

247 Re: rationing/death panels and the Oregon Health Plan experiment.

The OHP instituted a priority system for Medicaid coverage in a HMO system. Diagnoses were ranked by a committee, and the money available paid for services "above the line". Example, most cancer treatment was covered but terminal cancer was not. Patients were 'free' to pay out of pocket. Docs made a bonus if overall costs were kept down(and the reverse).

It worked for about a year.

The plan needed multiple approvals from Darth Federal who soon began to alter the deal. Soon the OHP ranking system was in ruins, costs spiraled, and the plan collapsed leaving behind the shell we have today.

The same Federal medicrats run the ACA and will dominate the IPAB. They will undermine any real reform, as there must be a Crisis to magnify their power.



Posted by: Hal Dall at March 07, 2015 12:45 PM (SmmpK)

248 "It should be about good health. In most cases
this has to do with living a healthy lifestyle. No drugs, eat and drink
in moderation and exercise."

this is pure bullshits. Retinoblastoma (which causes blindness and it is invalidating) has nothing to do with 'lifestyle' or drinking or exercising. Same with multiple sclerosis, the majority of neurological diseases and the majority of cancer types.

I can point out all the chronic problems within my circle of friends and none of them has anything to do with exercise, food or lifestyle.

And about lifestyle, dream on. The only real correlation is the homos lifestyle and STDs. See how telling them to change their lifestyle will work out in the real world.

Posted by: fromabroad at March 07, 2015 12:57 PM (rnV3B)

249 Don't expand or 'fix' Medicaid -- instead offer a marketplace/tax cut option for Medicaid.

Let clinics deduct the difference between regular fees and unreimbursed charity (Medicaid/Ocaid) care from their income. Also, allow folks to pay out of their pocket above and beyond what Medicaid pays.

Clinics everywhere, many of whom provide little to no Medicaid, will quickly develop sliding scale plans suited to their community and open their doors to folks of all sorts with long term stable health care options free from Medicaid (and Medicare and VA) red tape.

Reality check -- in many cases Medicaid/Ocaid pays less than the MW to clinics for Medicaid. Example -- $1.38 for an adult dental xray in WA that normally costs $20-$40. Ocaid is paying less than MW to health care workers and clinics. So folks on Ocaid aren't finding clinics willing to see them. Ocaid is a train wreck that's only going to get worse as budget deficits expand.

Fixing the problem doesn't include expanding Medicaid. It involves offering clinics a tax deduction (tax cut) for any charity care they provide. As such, there's a built in check and balance against fraud -- one has to have real income from real paying patients to make it work. Another reality check -- most folks think that doctors and nurses get a tax deduction for any charity (Medicaid) care they provide, just like they get when they drop off food to a food bank, or Apple gives software to schools... Wrong... Health care providers don't get any deductions for charity care. However, they do face malpractice challenges, plus have to deal with never ending piles of red tape, and risk audits and all sorts of ha$$les and/or jail time if they forget to dot an 'i' or cross a 't' when filing requests for payment for services rendered. It's like who really wants to go there? Meanwhile, carriers get paid in full for processing Medicaid/Ocaid claim, marketers get full buck$ for all the ad's on radio, TV, and more, burrOcrats get full paychecks.

How do you think things would work out if teachers were paid less than 10% of their regular wages for each Medicaid kid in their class room? Or union workers building schools and roads in medicaid areas got paid 10% of normal wages?

Bottomline, this sort of Ocare BS of underpaying for Medicaid services rendered isn't going to last long... There's not enough money to pay full wages, so fixing Medicaid really isn't a viable option. Offering tax deductions (a tax cut) would quickly fix most, if not, all the Medicaid problems. It would also make a clear, common sense point understandable by most everyone that Doctors and Nurses provide health care, not politicians, nor burrOcrats, nor insurance carriers...

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