The Last Largest Naval Battle In History

Leyte Gulf, the Philippines.. Oct 23-26 1944, 71 years ago.

They had no chance. The Japanese were out shipped and out gunned.. 300 ships to 67. 8 carriers to 1. The battleship numbers were close, 12 to 8 but by this time in the war battleships had been relegated to floating artillery for landings.

There were 3,000 American casualties. There were 12,500 Japanese killed.

This was the last major surface fleet fight in history. This fight effectively neutralized the IJN's ability to logistically support their forces in the field.

They didn't stand a prayer.

They were this desperate.

leyte.jpg

God rest those lost in the fight.

Posted by: Dave In Texas at 08:13 PM




Comments

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1 Yamamoto, when the ships sank.

Posted by: Dr Varno at October 23, 2015 08:17 PM (GdFQh)

2 And the moral of the story don't f with someone bigger than you.

Posted by: Skip at October 23, 2015 08:18 PM (Ken0l)

3
Dave, thanks. The most interesting and heroic and least known naval battle of modern times, methinks.

OK, standard mention of a great book on these events: Last Stand of the Tin Can Sailors by Hornfischer. (according to commenter Yip, the author - in Texas - is friendly and open to contact from readers)

Was just putting together an Amazon order on the AOSHQ store, wondering if other morons can recommend the Toll trilogy on the Pacific War (1 and 2 are out now)?

Posted by: rhomboid at October 23, 2015 08:20 PM (QDnY+)

4 Very humbling to stare at that photo.

"I had a long day at work and the commute home sucked."

Posted by: fluffy at October 23, 2015 08:21 PM (2iV3X)

5 They didn't stand a prayer.

Thanks to the Johnston, Roberts and Taffy 3.

Posted by: Grump928(C) muses at October 23, 2015 08:21 PM (rwI+c)

6
Actually, Skip, the most amazing part of this whole battle was the Battle Off Samar, where in fact a vastly over-matched American force did still-unbelievable things to fend off the Japanese and protect the landing beaches on Leyte (the Japanese target).

So more of a real-life story of David-Goliath than the moral you describe. At least for that part of the battle.

Interviewed (for the Lib of Congress vets' project) the junior radar tech from the USS West Virginia a few years ago. His ship was the first to spot the Japanese column in the Surigao Strait, and open fire (at night). He was asleep (off watch) but was woken just in time to run to the radar shack along an exposed gangway and get knocked down by the blast from the big guns firing the first volley.

Posted by: rhomboid at October 23, 2015 08:24 PM (QDnY+)

7 At Navy-Marine Corps Memorial Stadium in Annapolis the walls that separate the stands from the field list the major Navy and Marine Corps battles. Leyte Gulf is one of them.

Posted by: Vendette at October 23, 2015 08:25 PM (vPyLy)

8
FYI for travelling morons there are two monuments to this battle in San Diego. The main/newer one is right next to the USS Midway carrier museum - monument to Taffy 3 mostly.

Up at Rosecrans Nat. Cemetery on Pt Loma (which should be a must-do for every visitor, yet few know about it), there are monuments to individual ships and air wings involved in the battle.

Posted by: rhomboid at October 23, 2015 08:27 PM (QDnY+)

9 And these are the battles commemorated on the outside:


http://www.usna.com/page.aspx?pid=778

Posted by: Vendette at October 23, 2015 08:30 PM (vPyLy)

10 Thank you for the photo.

Posted by: m at October 23, 2015 08:32 PM (tElZn)

11 1 Beirut

http://thisainthell.us/blog/?p=62396


Posted by: 32 Years Ago Today at October 23, 2015 08:06 PM (zyIlW)

Thanks... I'm glad someone else remembered it today....

At this time, 32 years ago, I was carrying stretchers...

It tends to leave a mark on you...

Posted by: BB Wolf at October 23, 2015 08:32 PM (qh617)

12
And yes, today is also the somber anniversary of the Beirut USMC barracks attack. In some ways the match that lit the "weak horse/strong horse" saga in the MidEast culminating in 9/11 - though that dynamic is universal and constant in human affairs, obviously.

Somebody (cough, cough, Mossad) got the architect of that (and many other) attacks just a few years ago, in Syria,Iran's client and proxy.Iran - under the current regime the most vile, determined, and implacable enemy of the US.

Somewhere I read that the House Dems (spit) yesterday had a reception celebrating the surrender to Iran and the discarding of sanctions. Nice timing. Behold the country you all *actually* live in.

Posted by: rhomboid at October 23, 2015 08:33 PM (QDnY+)

13 "Last Stand" is excellent; may I recommend Ian Toll's two histories (of a trilogy, one more to come out), "Pacific Crucible", and "Conquering Tide"; he makes the point that the US servicemen that fought in the period 1944-1945 were almost fighting an entirely different war than the guys fighting 1942-1943. In '42-43, US was fighting for survival, on a shoe string, with a paucity of munitions, and prewar plane designs. Hanging on by our fingernails, until Midway (and Guadalcanal)

'44-45, however, we had better planes, ships, tanks, you name it, than the Japanese; and what seemed like an endless supply of all of it. Plus a lot of gutsy guys willing to dish it out. And, finally, nukes to show the Japanese they weren't the sons of the gods they had been told they were.

'Neptune's Inferno' by Hornfischer is also excellent.

Posted by: Sort-of-Mad Max at October 23, 2015 08:33 PM (DLu2s)

14 {{{{BBWolf}}}}

Posted by: Vendette at October 23, 2015 08:35 PM (vPyLy)

15 There are two good books about a portion of this battle. The Last of the Tin Can Sailors by Hornfischer. This the story of the impossible, if expensive, victory of Taffy 3 over the biggest battleship in the world, the Yamato. Sea of Thunder by Evan Thomas: This tells the story of four men, two Americans and two Japanese, whose paths cross at Leyte Gulf.

Posted by: The Great White Snark at October 23, 2015 08:37 PM (Nwg0u)

16 The striking thing about Hornfischer's books is that he pulls no punches on exactly how much of a meatgrinder a modern naval battle is to the people that go through it. Really puts in terms that bring it home. Not for the faint of heart.

As my dad the Seabee put it, "The great thing about the Navy is that they feed you well, and you don't have to sleep in a muddy hole in the ground; so you're doing OK before you get blown up and drowned."

Dad had a way with words.

Posted by: Sort-of-Mad Max at October 23, 2015 08:38 PM (DLu2s)

17 "God rest those lost in the fight."

No thanks.

God rest the American sailors and naval aviators.

As for the Japs...they're burning in Hell.

Posted by: Rykehaven at October 23, 2015 08:40 PM (ukAh4)

18 As for the Japs...they're burning in Hell.


Posted by: Rykehaven at October 23, 2015 08:40 PM (ukAh4)

Yup

Posted by: Velvet Ambition at October 23, 2015 08:43 PM (QPdNE)

19
Sort-of-Mad, you answered my (apparently unread!) question up-thread (re Toll books).

Yes, Neptune's Inferno, also by Hornfischer, is great. It brings home what Sort-of-Mad says above about the USN being out-matched in the first years after Pearl Harbor.

One advantage the US *did* have was radar, but it was so new not everyone understood how to use/exploit it (esp. in night engagements where it was a big advantage). One of the most memorable passages in Neptune's Inferno is when a column of US cruisers (forget which battle, one of those off Cape Engano up north) spots a Japanese column on radar, and maintains silence/darkness while closing to within point-blank range of the unaware Japanese. A young sailor on the flagship bridge, reacting to the tension, finally asks the commander "sir, what are we going to do, board them??".

Posted by: rhomboid at October 23, 2015 08:44 PM (QDnY+)

20 The Tin Can sailors in that battle had to be the bravest men on earth. They were attacking battleships with 15 and 16 inch main batteries, cruisers with 11 inch main batteries, and all they had were main batteries with 5 inch guns and torpedoes. The Japanese admiral in charge of his fleet felt that this was just a faint to draw him in closer to the carriers so that fleet air could destroy him. He turned around and fled the battle field.

Posted by: Old Blue at October 23, 2015 08:46 PM (9iR5/)

21 Piss off, Joe.

Posted by: Grump928(C) at October 23, 2015 08:48 PM (rwI+c)

22
Sort-of-Mad, ditto on that. People really should read Neptune's Inferno for many reasons, but the thing I came away with was just what you emphasized: the brutality and intensity of surface warfare with modern gunnery.

And those slug-fests around Guadalcanal were like the basement battles in Stalingrad - unbelievable close-quarter brawls. Last of their kind in naval history.

Posted by: rhomboid at October 23, 2015 08:49 PM (QDnY+)

23
Can't believe WWII was seven decades ago.

Like Toby said, WWII was to me as a kid as Viet Nam is to kids today. Or something like that.

Posted by: Soothsayer, with arms akimbo at October 23, 2015 08:50 PM (MGV6a)

24 22 "God rest those lost in the fight."
No thanks.
God rest the American sailors and naval aviators.
As for the Japs...they're burning in Hell.
Posted by: Rykehaven at October 23, 2015 08:40 PM (ukAh4)


I was on Hancock (CVA-19), which participated in Leyte during Vietnam ('68 - '72) in a fighter squadron (VF-24) as a plane captain and an AQ after I made E-5.

On liberty in Japan one time in an obscure part of Yokosuka, some older Jap guy saw me and my friends insignia (winged theodolytes) and with the biggest grin on his face made zooming sounds and motioned us to a small bar.

We drank beer with the natives for about 3 hours. Couldn't understand a word they said (nor them us, we suspected), but they all seemed to be WWII Navy vets from the other side bearing no grudges at all.

It was a fun time.

Posted by: jwb7605 at October 23, 2015 08:50 PM (DofIg)

25 Posted by: rhomboid at October 23, 2015 08:49 PM (QDnY+)
----------
Also known as the Slot, and Iron Bottom Sound, due to the number of ships and planes lost in the area during the Battle of Guadalcanal.

Posted by: Old Blue at October 23, 2015 08:51 PM (9iR5/)

26 Bb Wolf

Posted by: chemjeff - go royals at October 23, 2015 08:52 PM (5p18q)

27 Anyone read the book "Unbroken"?

I had no idea the Japanese were that evil. Makes the Nazis look like gentlemen.

I could completely understand the Greatest Generation hating the Japanese during that era.

Posted by: Kal at October 23, 2015 08:53 PM (A3kYV)

28 g'early evenin', 'rons

Posted by: AltonJackson at October 23, 2015 08:54 PM (rTlN9)

29 Husband and I were talking during dinner tonight, about our son and those who have served/are serving now.

The less than 1% in the nation.

I asked him what he thought the result would be if we had to have a national draft of all the Special Snowflakes who populate this country now. And I'm of course, speaking of Special Snowflake Princesses, too, because we're told they are every bit as brave and strong as our bravest, strongest boys.

We both concluded that we'd be doomed. Two thirds wouldn't pass the most basic physical requirements. The other third would be crying for mommy and daddy to save them.

Posted by: Jane D'oh at October 23, 2015 08:54 PM (FsuaD)

30 Sooth, I was born closer to the end of WWII, than I was to the start of Vietnam. WWII ended just a little over 70 years ago. And to kids today, both are ancient history.

Posted by: Old Blue at October 23, 2015 08:54 PM (9iR5/)

31 Never can contemplate any of the great naval battles of the Pacific war without a sense of awe.

Posted by: sock_rat_eez at October 23, 2015 08:55 PM (go6ud)

32 WWII was to me as a kid as Viet Nam is to kids today.

My Little League coach had been a Marine on Iwo Jima. And he was still a youngish man then.

Posted by: Grump928(C) at October 23, 2015 08:55 PM (rwI+c)

33 Anyone read the book "Unbroken"?
--------
Just finished it a couple of weeks ago. Saw the movie just before I found the book. I don't know how Zamporini and the rest survived.

Posted by: Old Blue at October 23, 2015 08:56 PM (9iR5/)

34 38
Anyone read the book "Unbroken"?



Yes. My lib, idiot MiL famously told our Marine son, as he was on his way to his first sea base, Okinawa, "Just remember. The Japanese are much more polite and civilized than Americans."

She refuses to read "Unbroken." Because lies or something.

Posted by: Jane D'oh at October 23, 2015 08:56 PM (FsuaD)

35 I know my WWII history well and what I mean while it could be from seeing it years down the road but even in the darkest days of Guadalcanal the battle may have been in jeopardy the war was not.

Posted by: Skip at October 23, 2015 08:56 PM (Ken0l)

36 "We both concluded that we'd be doomed. Two thirds wouldn't pass the most basic physical requirements. The other third would be crying for mommy and daddy to save them."

Shove 'em into the front lines anyway, and cue up Nelson Muntz.

Posted by: sock_rat_eez at October 23, 2015 08:58 PM (go6ud)

37 If a song equivalent to "Sink the Bismarck" could be recorded today I bet it wouldn't.

Posted by: Vendette at October 23, 2015 08:58 PM (vPyLy)

38 I've often wondered how different the prosecution of the war would have been had the US lost the battle of Midway. The Pacific fleet would have been pulled back to the West Coast, abandoning Hawaii. The end result would have eventually been the same, just a couple of years later.

Posted by: Old Blue at October 23, 2015 08:59 PM (9iR5/)

39 Posted by: Jane D'oh at October 23, 2015 08:56 PM (FsuaD)




I hope Son of D'oh is doing well.

Posted by: Vendette at October 23, 2015 08:59 PM (vPyLy)

40 On liberty in Japan one time in an obscure part of Yokosuka, some older Jap guy saw me and my friends insignia (winged theodolytes) and with the biggest grin on his face made zooming sounds and motioned us to a small bar.

Did you buy him a big white mushroom?

Posted by: Bertram Cabot Jr. at October 23, 2015 09:00 PM (FkBIv)

41
I first learned how cruel the Japs were from that movie with Benjamin Bratt...The Great Raid, so I wasn't surprised by the time I'd heard of Unbroken.

Plus, from watching kung fu movies, I learned that the Japanese were extremely cruel to the Chinese; to this day there are still hard feelings between them.

Posted by: Soothsayer, with arms akimbo at October 23, 2015 09:00 PM (MGV6a)

42 14
1 Beirut



http://thisainthell.us/blog/?p=62396





Posted by: 32 Years Ago Today at October 23, 2015 08:06 PM (zyIlW)



Thanks... I'm glad someone else remembered it today....



At this time, 32 years ago, I was carrying stretchers...



It tends to leave a mark on you...



Posted by: BB Wolf at October 23, 2015 08:32 PM (qh617)



{{{hug}}} Husband and son and I visited the memorial near Camp LeJeune as boy was getting out.

I'm pretty sure all the Marines transiting in and out of Lejeune make it a point to go there. And the Vietnam memorial there is also not to be missed.

Posted by: Jane D'oh at October 23, 2015 09:00 PM (FsuaD)

43 The Nimtz Museum in Fredricksburg, TX, is very highly recommended.

Give it a full day. It is a campus of two parts, and you'll want to take in each in turn, on either side of a delicious lunch.

No matter your state of mind when you arrive, you will leave, duly humbled, in awe, and overwhelmed with reverence and respect.



Jim
Sunk New Dawn
Galveston, TX

Posted by: Jim at October 23, 2015 09:00 PM (McRlu)

44
Jane, not to contend that today's Special Snowflake cohort is any better than you say, but thanks to the Depression etc. the manpower pool for WWII conscription had lots of problems. Forget the number (of course), but the % rejected for service was very high. Different country, of course.

My father's "war stories" (he never left the states) I remember best were about the camp in NJ where there was a cholera outbreak - many of the KP guys hadn't learned to wash their hands before cooking. And he recalled seeing Appalachian kids getting chewed out when things turned cold - they resisted using boots, as they'd never worn shoes before. Different country.

Posted by: rhomboid at October 23, 2015 09:01 PM (QDnY+)

45 Vendette, from what I can gather, Son of D'oh is doing very well, but is giving Mom D'oh a lot of gray hairs. He's acting like a man. A very good man with very large...well, you know.

Posted by: Old Blue at October 23, 2015 09:02 PM (9iR5/)

46 I see the administration's use of the military as a social experiment distressing and is all just as I've wrote two many times in the last week a purposely designed weakening of it.

Posted by: Skip at October 23, 2015 09:02 PM (Ken0l)

47
What's amazing is how tame the Japs became and how quickly it occurred.

I mean, they did a 180 degree turn in, what, a week??
By the 1950' the Japs weren't just downright docile, they were plum silly with the Godzilla stuff. Today they are the world's children.

Posted by: Soothsayer, with arms akimbo at October 23, 2015 09:03 PM (MGV6a)

48 Aaaand migraine becomes nauseous:

CONFUSION: Pentagon Chief says Iraq raid not combat, then says 'this is combat'...

Posted by: weft cut-loop at October 23, 2015 09:03 PM (JmGFJ)

49 Anyone read the book "Unbroken"?



I had no idea the Japanese were that evil. Makes the Nazis look like gentlemen.



I could completely understand the Greatest Generation hating the Japanese during that era.

Posted by: Kal at October 23, 2015 08:53 PM (A3kYV)


The Japanese were absolutely remorseless to everyone. Combatants and civilians alike

Posted by: TheQuietMan at October 23, 2015 09:03 PM (DiZBp)

50 Incredible. It's tough for my pathetic, squishy mind to comprehend such a naval battle.

Posted by: Obsidian Owl at October 23, 2015 09:03 PM (9C95h)

51 56
Vendette, from what I can gather, Son of D'oh is doing very well, but is
giving Mom D'oh a lot of gray hairs. He's acting like a man. A very
good man with very large...well, you know.


Posted by: Old Blue at October 23, 2015 09:02 PM (9iR5/)


He's killing me. Literally. He needs to stop with the pulling his gun on armed thugs routine. Ugh. Dammit.

Posted by: Jane D'oh at October 23, 2015 09:03 PM (FsuaD)

52 Unit 731.

Yeah, the atom bomb wasn't even close to being payback for that shit.

Posted by: Snoodling World Champion 1997 at October 23, 2015 09:04 PM (k9qR4)

53 He's killing me. Literally. He needs to stop with the pulling his gun on armed thugs routine. Ugh. Dammit.




Posted by: Jane D'oh at October 23, 2015 09:03 PM (FsuaD)


{{{{{Jane}}}}}

Posted by: Vendette at October 23, 2015 09:04 PM (vPyLy)

54 What's amazing is how tame the Japs became and how quickly it occurred.
--------
The Emperor ordered them to "bear the unbearable". He was literally the voice of God.

Posted by: Old Blue at October 23, 2015 09:04 PM (9iR5/)

55
When I was a kid, all the "old" people around were WWII-era. All of them. So even though WWII was decades before I was born, it was still tangentially part of my life. Same for all of you.

Today, as Old Blue says, it's ancient history.

Posted by: Soothsayer, with arms akimbo at October 23, 2015 09:05 PM (MGV6a)

56 Jane, prayers for his safety, and your sanity.

He needs to stop with the pulling his gun on armed thugs routine. Ugh. Dammit.


On the plus side, he has better fire control.

Posted by: Old Blue at October 23, 2015 09:06 PM (9iR5/)

57 Sweetest old guy at our church. He's small in stature, but straight in spine and fit and trim.

Has a long, fine scar from the corner of one eye down his cheek.

He explained to our son that he lost 20 lbs. at Parris Island and never gained one back, and survived the battle of Okinawa, during hand-to-hand combat.

He's beginning to get weaker, and we will miss him terribly, and all those like him.

Posted by: Jane D'oh at October 23, 2015 09:08 PM (FsuaD)

58 "bare the unbareable"


Here ya go....!

Posted by: Lena D's Fupa at October 23, 2015 09:08 PM (BO/km)

59
I'm just gonna say it:

A couple of nuclear bombs dropped on them was exactly the prescription the Japanese needed.

Today, the Middle East Scuzlims, all of them, need to be nuclified too.

Posted by: Soothsayer, with arms akimbo at October 23, 2015 09:08 PM (MGV6a)

60 he makes the point that the US servicemen that fought in the period 1944-1945 were almost fighting an entirely different war than the guys fighting 1942-1943.

A couple years ago I read the autobiography of Saki, Japan's leading ace to survive the war, and in his own way he notes the same thing: Fighting against the USAAF in New Guinea was basically a turkey shoot for the Japanese - the US pilots stood no chance in their P-39 Aircobras against a Zero, and Saki was mostly impressed by their bravery in meeting the Japanese in vastly unequal combat without flinching time and time again. When he was transferred into the central Pacific (in the Marianas, I believe) he met US Navy planes that could outfly a Zero, and was eventually shot when he mistook a Avenger torpedo bomber for a fighter and flew straight into the rear gun. He survived. minus an eye, and eventually re-entered combat at the end of the war, in which he was completely outclassed in terms of numbers and machines and only survived because he, pretty uniquely among the Japanese by then, had considerably more experience than the American pilots.

Posted by: Grey Fox at October 23, 2015 09:09 PM (bZ7mE)

61 I was given a book as a present called "Halsey's Typhoon". He sailed his fleet into a major typhoon after the Battle of Leyte Gulf, with much loss of life, mostly in destroyers. Pretty good read. I think the book Caine Mutiny was partially based on that typhoon.

Posted by: Old Blue at October 23, 2015 09:09 PM (9iR5/)

62 55
Jane, not to contend that today's Special Snowflake cohort is any better than you say, but thanks to the Depression etc. the manpower pool for WWII conscription had lots of problems. Forget the number (of course), but the % rejected for service was very high. Different country, of course.
....
Posted by: rhomboid at October 23, 2015 09:01 PM (QDnY+)


My dad (born in 1906) got drafted in 1942 at the tender age of 35. He'd been a cowboy.
He ended up driving a jeep for Patton and participated in the Battle Of The Bulge, came home alive and then got married and had kids.

Kids today are totally ignorant of how many able bodied men were conscripted -- even my generation (I joined the Navy to beat my draft notification in 196.

Posted by: jwb7605 at October 23, 2015 09:09 PM (DofIg)

63
On the plus side, he has better fire control.



Posted by: Old Blue at October 23, 2015 09:06 PM (9iR5/)


Well, there's that. He walks his dog at night. All sorts of "mischief" going on in his 'hood. I just pray some yute doesn't get "lucky" with a sideways gansta shot. Well, I just won't go there.

Posted by: Jane D'oh at October 23, 2015 09:10 PM (FsuaD)

64
Nuking Tehran today would change the hearts and minds of about a billion Muslims right quick.

Posted by: Soothsayer, with arms akimbo at October 23, 2015 09:10 PM (MGV6a)

65 Aaaand migraine becomes nauseous:

CONFUSION: Pentagon Chief says Iraq raid not combat, then says 'this is combat'...



Posted by: weft cut-loop at October 23, 2015 09:03 PM (JmGFJ)


I'm surprised the apologies didn't go out over the non-combat combat

Posted by: TheQuietMan at October 23, 2015 09:11 PM (DiZBp)

66 My late, lamented next door neighbor used to brag that he had the world's shortest combat record with the Marines; jumped out of a Higgins boat at Saipan right into a Japanese mortar round, and spent 3 months in stateside hospitals.

Set off every metal detector he ever went through. And proud to be a Marine until he died.

Posted by: Sort-of-Mad Max at October 23, 2015 09:11 PM (DLu2s)

67 {delurk}
haven't read Unbroken ... but read General Wainwrights Story at least 40 years ago. The Bataan March was gawdawful, and the treatment of prisoners was worse than barbaric. Far worse than even the Nazi SS .... but not as bad as the stone age savages in the mid-east!

Posted by: WingNut at October 23, 2015 09:11 PM (Obcou)

68 Cleanup on aisle 17 please: troll droppings from some shitweasel taking a jab at Reagan.

Posted by: salfter at October 23, 2015 09:11 PM (R8EhJ)

69 Nuking Tehran today would change the hearts and minds of about a billion Muslims right quick.
--------
I don't know about the "faithful". They're all about being martyred. Kamikaze's had nothing on these guys. Same mindset though.

Posted by: Old Blue at October 23, 2015 09:12 PM (9iR5/)

70 Nuking Tehran today would change the hearts and minds of about a billion Muslims right quick.

Posted by: Soothsayer, with arms akimbo at October 23, 2015 09:10 PM (MGV6a)


The commie queer in the White House would gladly launch a nuke. Against Tel Aviv.

Posted by: TheQuietMan at October 23, 2015 09:13 PM (DiZBp)

71 How does everyone like my non-response to the barracks bombing?
Posted by: Ron Reagan at October 23, 2015 08:34 PM (i9uqJ)

Fucking Troll, I'll tell you I had the same response. Throw my hands in the air and say , Fuck it we're outa here, y'all can go to hell. And Lebanon did; went right to hell.

Let the whole fucking middle east burn in hell fire. How is that for a non response you fucking troll.

Posted by: Hayfield Volkovski at October 23, 2015 09:13 PM (ohIm3)

72 Cleanup on aisle 17 please: troll droppings from some shitweasel taking a jab at Reagan.

Well, with the Cubs out of the playoffs Corky and the kidz at the 'home' have a lot of time on their hands, and window-licking season is still about a month away.......

Posted by: Sort-of-Mad Max at October 23, 2015 09:14 PM (DLu2s)

73 It's pretty sad that we now have more admirals in the Navy than we have ships.

Heckuva job, Barry.

And as horrible as things are for the military under Sir Golfsalot, just imagine CiC Hillary.

Posted by: Jane D'oh at October 23, 2015 09:14 PM (FsuaD)

74
Actually Tokyo, Osaka, and Kobe were more than enough for the Japanese people. They weren't stupid. When high school girls were told to begin training with bamboo staves, and the war news kept reporting "victories" closer and closer to the home islands, and the (relatively few) surviving/wounded vets came home and talked - everybody knew the game was up. Long before Hiroshima.

And of course the people in charge - the military - were not phased in the least by Hiroshima (as, really they shouldn't have been). Small city, minor industrial importance. Whether 10 raids using small napalm bombs or one nuke, same result from a practical point of view. Strategy to make things painful for America, in order to get a better deal than Potsdam, was incredibly brutal, but far from crazy.

In the meeting of the "big six" on August 9 in which the emperor told them to end it, the report of the military was that hey had counter-measures for attacks like Hiroshima - no need to change strategy.

That's why relief was the main reaction among most Japanese at the surrender. Oddly, just like in the US.

Posted by: rhomboid at October 23, 2015 09:14 PM (QDnY+)

75 Speaking of Japanese War Crimes, I recommend Sword of the Samurai by Lord Russell of Liverpool

Posted by: Tmitsss at October 23, 2015 09:15 PM (L0IIq)

76 My best friend in high school, his father was a fighter pilot at Clark Field at the start of WWII. He was captured, endured the Bataan Death March, and was shipped to Japan as a POW to work in the coal mines. Sober, he was a really nice guy. Funny and smart. When he took to drinking, he suffered from terrible demons. After reading "Unbroken" I think I have a better handle on what he suffered.

Posted by: Old Blue at October 23, 2015 09:16 PM (9iR5/)

77 Oooof! Lost my train of thought. Was going to comment on the numbers of ships in that battle. It's difficult to comprehend the numbers from WWII because today we fight battles with one or two aircraft dropping or two bombs and call it a day.

Back in the big one. WWII, tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands of men and women went to war. Now we send a thousand and call it a big deal.

Posted by: Hayfield Volkovski at October 23, 2015 09:17 PM (ohIm3)

78 The Japanese were absolutely remorseless to everyone. Combatants and civilians alike

One essay on Zen Buddhism I have read online argues that Zen Buddhism is essentially amoral, since it teaches that it is detachment from one's actions which is ultimately important, not the actual actions themselves., and connects that with the treatment of civilians and captives in WWII.

Kind of an interesting argument, I thought.

Posted by: Grey Fox at October 23, 2015 09:18 PM (bZ7mE)

79 Well, they fooled Halsey.

Posted by: eman at October 23, 2015 09:18 PM (MQEz6)

80 Posted by: rhomboid at October 23, 2015 09:14 PM (QDnY+)

I think the efforts in Afghanistan and Iraq (nation building) were a look-back to Japan and Germany as models of what to do.

"Last war" syndrome.
No way would it or could it ever work the same.

Posted by: jwb7605 at October 23, 2015 09:18 PM (DofIg)

81 Heard on Fox this afternoon that there's a group (I didn't catch who...I was distracted) that's going to the Pacific to look for the remains of our troops who are buried on islands there in unmarked graves.

God bless them.


Posted by: Jane D'oh at October 23, 2015 09:19 PM (FsuaD)

82 88
The Japanese were absolutely remorseless to everyone. Combatants and civilians alike
-------
They were also being subjected to a bastardized, nationalized version of Bushido.

Posted by: Old Blue at October 23, 2015 09:20 PM (9iR5/)

83 aww Jane!

Posted by: Lea at October 23, 2015 09:20 PM (vmMMi)

84 34
We drank beer with the natives for about 3 hours. Couldn't understand a word they said (nor them us, we suspected), but they all seemed to be WWII Navy vets from the other side bearing no grudges at all.

It was a fun time.
Posted by: jwb7605 at October 23, 2015 08:50 PM (DofIg)



At the risk of sounding maudlin, I like stories like that. I like that we became allies with the Japanese and Germans after WWII.

As we see every day at this site, today many Americans have an interest in Japanese culture (like anime, etc.), and likewise modern Japan has been influenced by American culture (baseball is popular there).

I've heard that Americans who visit Vietnam today are treated well.

And look at how we are constantly ribbing each other about the War of Northern Aggression or the War of Southern Hospitality, or whatever you want to call it.

Time eventually heals wounds. While the people who actually fought in the wars often hold grudges against their former adversaries, and understandably so, later generations often let bygones be bygones and feel a certain connection with historical enemies.

Posted by: rickl at October 23, 2015 09:20 PM (sdi6R)

85 A couple of nuclear bombs dropped on them was exactly the prescription the Japanese needed.

Today, the Middle East Scuzlims, all of them, need to be nuclified too.
Posted by: Soothsayer,

+1 on that

Also, I honestly don't know why we didn't use them in Korea and/or Vietnam. I genuinely believe far more people died because we didn't.

How many millions died when the Communists took over?

Posted by: Kal at October 23, 2015 09:21 PM (A3kYV)

86 My father-in-law was a radioman on the White Plains. I was able to marry the love of my life because the Japanese fires an armor piercing shell at a jeep carrier.

Posted by: Royce at October 23, 2015 09:22 PM (ivW+N)

87 Small Boys attack.

Posted by: Boss Moss at October 23, 2015 09:22 PM (STkZU)

88
And look at how we are constantly ribbing each other about the War
of Northern Aggression or the War of Southern Hospitality, or whatever
you want to call it.



Bless your heart. *southern drawl*




Posted by: Jane D'oh at October 23, 2015 09:23 PM (FsuaD)

89 the japanese ate our men.....that is something i can't get out of my head.....

Posted by: phoenixgirl, i was born a rebel at October 23, 2015 09:23 PM (0O7c5)

90 "I think the efforts in Afghanistan and Iraq (nation building) were a look-back to Japan and Germany as models of what to do."

I could work. But not with approach W took. Imagine trying to put Germany back together with the nazis in charge after May of 45.

The islamic world need to be de islamified for civilization to take root.

Posted by: Tim in Illinois Old, Uniproved and TRUMP! for Emporer 2016 at October 23, 2015 09:23 PM (kLrYQ)

91 Also, I honestly don't know why we didn't use them in Korea
----------
The Soviets had already tested nuclear weapons. Truman didn't want the war spreading to Europe. The Allies would have lost that one.

Posted by: Old Blue at October 23, 2015 09:23 PM (9iR5/)

92 I think the efforts in Afghanistan and Iraq (nation building) were a look-back to Japan and Germany as models of what to do.


Yeah, except we forgot the whole "beat the ever living piss out of them until they squeal for mercy" and then the whole "occupy their country for the next 60 years" thing too. Strange how the terminology doesn't quite translate into "Useless Faggot".

Posted by: Snoodling World Champion 1997 at October 23, 2015 09:24 PM (k9qR4)

93
When a dog turns rabid, you dispatch it.

Same with people.

What the "palestinians" are doing today with these stabbings and knife attacks....they are maniacs...rabid animals that need to be killed. Period.

Posted by: Soothsayer, with arms akimbo at October 23, 2015 09:25 PM (MGV6a)

94 Ted Cruz on CSpan.

I don't get the un/non-personable narrative on him.

Seems so sincere.

Posted by: Golfman at October 23, 2015 09:25 PM (48QDY)

95 rickl @ 85

I've been fascinated with Japanese culture, geography, cuisine, etc since a young kid in the '70's. Don't know how/where it started, but maybe from an early read of WWII books?
Maybe from the stamps Grampa would send me from his penpals, more likey. I still have my extensive Japanese stamp collection to this day. Beautiful artwork on those things.

Posted by: Chi at October 23, 2015 09:27 PM (MRbZD)

96 The Japanese used captured Marines for live bayonet practice.

If you haven't already, read "With the Old Breed." Chilling.

Posted by: Jane D'oh at October 23, 2015 09:27 PM (FsuaD)

97 Virginia state assembly elections are in two weeks. Tonight local DC TV in the hour before prime time had four commercials attacking one of the R state senate candidates in the outer 'burbs, sponsored by Bloombergs "Everytown for Gun Safety" and authorized by the Dem candidate. It's expensive and scattershot advertising- fewer than 5% of the viewers are in the district. I think it has less to do with this particular campaign than with testing for next year.
It makes me want to give $$$ to the R.

Posted by: Jim in Virginia at October 23, 2015 09:27 PM (sud5V)

98 "The Japanese used captured Marines for live bayonet practice."

Life magazine had pictures of that. I saw them as a kid.

Posted by: Hayfield Volkovski at October 23, 2015 09:28 PM (ohIm3)

99 Yeah, except we forgot the whole "beat the ever living piss out of them until they squeal for mercy" and then the whole "occupy their country for the next 60 years" thing too. Strange how the terminology doesn't quite translate into "Useless Faggot".
Posted by: Snoodling World Champion 1997 at October 23, 2015 09:24 PM (k9qR4)


Exactly.
Nation Building works if, and only if, the defeated side welcomes the winning side.
That requires an enormous amount of "collateral damage".

Posted by: jwb7605 at October 23, 2015 09:28 PM (DofIg)

100 Ted Cruz on CSpan.



I don't get the un/non-personable narrative on him.



Seems so sincere.

Posted by: Golfman at October 23, 2015 09:25 PM (48QDY)


I was watching some of that too. I really like what he had to say

Posted by: TheQuietMan at October 23, 2015 09:28 PM (DiZBp)

101 jwb7605 @ 81 - Big difference between those nation building efforts. In late 1945 Germany and Japan knew they were defeated because we waged total war. Nowadays, we half ass it trying to kinder and gentler and get more people killed. W. T. Sherman had something to say about that.

Rhomboid - Halsey ran his fleet through TWO typhoons. New a master chief who survived that as a junior enlisted.

Posted by: Butch at October 23, 2015 09:28 PM (hXu8T)

102 It makes me want to give $$$ to the R.

Posted by: Jim in Virginia at October 23, 2015 09:27 PM (sud5V)
=======================

Oh no no no. No don't do that.


Posted by: grammie winger, watching the fig tree at October 23, 2015 09:29 PM (dFi94)

103 98.

I sincerely hope Democrats make gun control a major issue.

They're not even pretending anymore to give a veneer of deference to the 2A, they're now openly talking confiscation.

Posted by: Kal at October 23, 2015 09:29 PM (A3kYV)

104 97
The Japanese used captured Marines for live bayonet practice.
---------
Read up on the Rape of Nanking some time. Even the Germans were appalled. It's no wonder that there is no love lost between Japan and China.

Posted by: Old Blue at October 23, 2015 09:29 PM (9iR5/)

105 War only ends when the losing side has lost the will to fight.

Now think back to the anti war protests of the sixties.

Posted by: Hayfield Volkovski at October 23, 2015 09:31 PM (ohIm3)

106 One of the saddest scenes in the series "The Pacific" is a poor Okinawan woman holding a baby, crying to the Marines to take her baby. They don't understand what shes doing. And then she and the baby blow up. Early forced suicide bomber.

Posted by: Jane D'oh at October 23, 2015 09:31 PM (FsuaD)

107 Thank you, Dave in Texas. Keep up this kind of good work.

Posted by: mindful webworker - occasionally at October 23, 2015 09:31 PM (ACs58)

108 104 98.
I sincerely hope Democrats make gun control a major issue.
They're not even pretending anymore to give a veneer of deference to the 2A, they're now openly talking confiscation.
Posted by: Kal at October 23, 2015 09:29 PM (A3kYV)


Maybe they're hoping for a demonstration of successful nation-building.
Probably not with the outcome they're thinking, though.

Posted by: jwb7605 at October 23, 2015 09:32 PM (DofIg)

109 Herman Wouk wrote of the battle in War and Remembrance:

The vision of Sprague's three destroyers -- the Johnston, the Hoel, and the Hermann -- charging out of the smoke and the rain straight toward Kurita's battleships and cruisers, can endure as a picture of the way Americans fight when they don't have superiority. Out school-children should know about that incident, and our enemies should ponder it.

Posted by: Radeaminit at October 23, 2015 09:32 PM (QolCq)

110 Read up on the Rape of Nanking some time. Even the Germans were appalled. It's no wonder that there is no love lost between Japan and China.

I think that the Germans were actively supplying the Nationalist Chinese with arms and training prior to signing an alliance with Japan. Which makes the only two countries to actively aid China during the Second Sino-Japanese War the United States and Nazi Germany.

Posted by: Grey Fox at October 23, 2015 09:32 PM (bZ7mE)

111 Exactly.

Nation Building works if, and only if, the defeated side welcomes the winning side.

That requires an enormous amount of "collateral damage".

Posted by: jwb7605 at October 23, 2015 09:28 PM (DofIg)


The Germans also had a history and civilization to revert to after the Nazis. The religion of peace has the same old shit today as they have for hundreds of years. All they know is the assbackwards ways they have

Posted by: TheQuietMan at October 23, 2015 09:32 PM (DiZBp)

112 Yep, the Battle off Samar, where Ziggy Sprague turned in one of history's great command performances, and the heroics pulled by the men under his command were a match.

Posted by: Mentor of Arisia at October 23, 2015 09:33 PM (ybzJi)

113
Heh:

New York Times
No Apology For Hiroshima
April 8, 1995



DALLAS, April 7 -- President Clinton said today that the United States owed Japan no apology for dropping atomic bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki at the end of World War II, and that President Harry S. Truman had made the right decision to use the bombs.

The President's comments came in response to a question at the annual convention of the American Society of Newspaper Editors here. Asked whether an apology was owed, Mr. Clinton replied "no," adding that President Truman had made the right decision "based on the facts he had before him."

Posted by: Soothsayer, with arms akimbo at October 23, 2015 09:34 PM (MGV6a)

114
Twenty years ago...

wow.

Posted by: Soothsayer, with arms akimbo at October 23, 2015 09:34 PM (MGV6a)

115 Heard Cruz on Wilkow I love what he has to say

Posted by: Skip at October 23, 2015 09:34 PM (Ken0l)

116 Read up on what Mao was doing during that war. Mainly staying away from the battle and letting the Nationalists take all the casualties. Then Mao's forces took out the weakened Nationalists.

And what's her name admires Mao.

Posted by: Hayfield Volkovski at October 23, 2015 09:35 PM (ohIm3)

117 The Germans also had a history and civilization to revert to after the Nazis. The religion of peace has the same old shit today as they have for hundreds of years. All they know is the assbackwards ways they have
Posted by: TheQuietMan

_____________

As long as Islam is in the picture, they're going to be that way forever.

My foreign policy prescription for anything involving the Middle East is to not get involved or if we're attacked, destroy everything and leave.

But zero nation building.

Posted by: Kal at October 23, 2015 09:35 PM (A3kYV)

118 @110, Winds of War/War and Remembrance are my favorite novels after Lord of the Rings.

Posted by: Mentor of Arisia at October 23, 2015 09:35 PM (ybzJi)

119 "Damn it, boys. They're getting away."

Posted by: Stringer Davis at October 23, 2015 09:37 PM (xq1UY)

120 In other news, Clock Boy discovers that his father is an idiot.


Posted by: Grampa Jimbo at October 23, 2015 09:37 PM (1ijHg)

121 My late dad was in Tokyo right after the war (AF pilot) and bought a pet monkey off the street.

While he was out, the monkey ate all his cigs and pooped everywhere, so he gave it back to the guy he bought it from.

In defense of my dad, he wasn't much older than my son. I could almost see our son doing the same thing. Minus the cigs.

Posted by: Jane D'oh at October 23, 2015 09:38 PM (FsuaD)

122 I was just about to mention Nanking. I mean, I realize The Holocaust, but I can't think of an instance where the Nazis took a major city and just started killing, in brutal ways, nearly everyone, all just for fun and sport.

I believe there were Germans there who actually rescued some people.

And I don't think the Koreans are too fond of Japan either.

Posted by: Vertov at October 23, 2015 09:38 PM (rRr9n)

123
Going to maintain my perpetual silence on "nation building" as it's (mis)understood and used, esp. WRT Iraq/A-stan. Actual substance of topic is irrelevant now, as the US is not a serious country and shouldn't be trusted with the livesof its own young, much less foreigners, to do anything even marginally difficult, here or abroad.

Actually "unserious" doesn't beging to capture it. Look at the sickening, surreal display just yesterday (Benghazi hearing). Don't have words for it.

And full appreciation for the brutality of war-time Japanese military conduct requires no silliness about German war-time conduct. It was, generally, unspeakable and indefensible. No nuance worth mining in that odd discussion.

Posted by: rhomboid at October 23, 2015 09:38 PM (QDnY+)

124
I hate fucking monkeys. And you can see why.

Posted by: Soothsayer, with arms akimbo at October 23, 2015 09:39 PM (MGV6a)

125 104: I sincerely hope Democrats make gun control a major issue.

Ask them if they support the Australian example of gun control, as HRC suggested. If they answer in the affirmative, call them out as supporting confiscation.

I hope the Dems talk gun control until polling shows them losing votes of middle class African American males in suburban Maryland, Florida, North Carolina and Pennsylvania. Then it will be too late. The NRA ads next fall will be epic.

Posted by: Jim in Virginia at October 23, 2015 09:39 PM (sud5V)

126 125


I hate fucking monkeys. And you can see why.

Posted by: Soothsayer, with arms akimbo at October 23, 2015 09:39 PM (MGV6a)


Obligatory, "Then stop fucking them."

Posted by: Jane D'oh at October 23, 2015 09:40 PM (FsuaD)

127 Read up on what Mao was doing during that war.
Mainly staying away from the battle and letting the Nationalists take
all the casualties. Then Mao's forces took out the weakened
Nationalists.



And what's her name admires Mao.





Posted by: Hayfield Volkovski at October 23, 2015 09:35 PM (ohIm3)


Commie scum are all the same. They'll gladly watch the destruction of their own country if it gives them political gains

Posted by: TheQuietMan at October 23, 2015 09:40 PM (DiZBp)

128 I hate f*cking monkeys. And you can see why.
Posted by: Soothsayer, with arms akimbo at October 23, 2015 09:39 PM (MGV6a)


So maybe you should stop.

Posted by: BurtTC at October 23, 2015 09:41 PM (Dj0WE)

129 126.

I really believe that if guns been an issue in 2012, Obama would have lost.

That's paydirt for getting the Reagan Democrat coalition back together.

Posted by: Kal at October 23, 2015 09:42 PM (A3kYV)

130 Sorry guys. Jesus visited the Jap souls in Hell. Those that believed were saved.

Same for everyone.

Posted by: Grampa Jimbo at October 23, 2015 09:42 PM (1ijHg)

131 Speaking of going right to hell, remember back when the bleeding heart liberals were demanding that Bush the HW do something for the starving children in Somalia? And when the USA sent in Food, the warlords took the humanitarian aid for themselves? So the bleeding heart liberals demanded that HW send in the Marines?

Well, he did. Then along comes clinton and one helicopter gets shot down, and he pulls all the US forces out. You don't ever hear any criticism from the liberals about Clinton's non response. Clinton abandon those poor starving children, and not a peep from the bleeding heart liberals who were demanding the US do something for the children.

Fucking double standards.

Posted by: Hayfield Volkovski at October 23, 2015 09:43 PM (ohIm3)

132 128
Read up on what Mao was doing during that war.

Mainly staying away from the battle and letting the Nationalists take

all the casualties. Then Mao's forces took out the weakened

Nationalists.





And what's her name admires Mao.









Posted by: Hayfield Volkovski at October 23, 2015 09:35 PM (ohIm3)




That would be that Dunn woman briefly in the Obama administration, the woman with the lizard tongue. I remember...Anita Dunn. Yes, she spoke enthusiastically to a group about her admiration of Mao.

Posted by: Jane D'oh at October 23, 2015 09:43 PM (FsuaD)

133 Sorry guys. Jesus visited the Jap souls in Hell. Those that believed were saved.

Same for everyone.
Posted by: Grampa Jimbo at October 23, 2015 09:42 PM (1ijHg)


A hard concept for some to accept, so I don't tend to say it. But yeah, that is, I believe, the way it works.

Posted by: BurtTC at October 23, 2015 09:44 PM (Dj0WE)

134 Look at the sickening, surreal display just yesterday (Benghazi hearing). Don't have words for it.

The Media has words for it. They say "You go, GIRL!"

Posted by: Bertram Cabot Jr. at October 23, 2015 09:44 PM (FkBIv)

135 "Which makes the only two countries to actively aid
China during the Second Sino-Japanese War the United States and Nazi
Germany.

Posted by: Grey Fox at October 23, 2015 09:32 PM (bZ7mE)

No really. The Nationalist did receive some equipment from the Soviet Union. 88 T-26 light tanks among it.

Posted by: Tim in Illinois Old, Uniproved and TRUMP! for Emporer 2016 at October 23, 2015 09:44 PM (kLrYQ)

136 101 Ted Cruz on CSpan.

Daughter in her first year at UVa (two years ago) took a Poli Sci course from Larry Sabato. Guest speaker one day was Senator Ted Cruz. Daughter had just bought me a birthday card, she asked him to sign it. "Rock on for liberty!"

Best present ever.

Posted by: Jim in Virginia at October 23, 2015 09:45 PM (sud5V)

137 Daughter in her first year at UVa (two years ago)
took a Poli Sci course from Larry Sabato. Guest speaker one day was
Senator Ted Cruz. Daughter had just bought me a birthday card, she
asked him to sign it. "Rock on for liberty!"



Best present ever.

Posted by: Jim in Virginia at October 23, 2015 09:45 PM (sud5V)


Very cool!

Posted by: Jane D'oh at October 23, 2015 09:46 PM (FsuaD)

138 I am going to be the cranky one, again, about Last Stand of the Tin Can Sailors.

First off, much of what Hornfischer recounts can be found in two of Edwin P. Hoyt's books - The Men of the Gambier Bay and The Battle of Leyte Gulf. The only original scholarship in the book is the story of sailors aboard Sammy B. Roberts and the other two cans that went down.

I still have massive issues with Hornfischer injecting his personal opinions into the book, when he speculates it was because Halsey went chasing after Ozawa's sacrificial carriers Zuikaku, Zuiho, Chitose, and Chiyoda that were sunk by Halsey's carrier planes, Halsey only got one ship named after him while Spurance had a class of destroyers named for him. Or when he uses a fictional character from Herman Woulk's The Winds of War to comment on the combat.

Contrary to Hornfischer, USS Gambier Gay was not the first carrier to fall victim to enemy gunfire. HMS Glory has that dubious distinction during the British retreat from Norway. With her deck fouled by RAF Hurricanes that had landed aboard in a great feat of airmanship since the fighters lacked arresting gear, HMS Glory was overtaken by two Kreigsmarine warships and was sunk by 11in naval gunfire from a pocket battleship. In 1940.

Posted by: Anna Puma at October 23, 2015 09:47 PM (4aTyy)

139
#110, that's one of the fascinating thing about the Battle Off Samar - may have been in Hornfischer's book, probably - the last time a major American conventional force fought against a vastly superior foe.

Have to re-read it, it's been a while, but I think it's after the Samuel B. Roberts finally breaks apart and sinks, after its furious fatal charge on Kurita's big-gun ships, that the officers on one/or more of the Japanese ships descend and man the rail while rendering a salute to warriors they regarded as true samurai in spirit.

Stringer, you quoting that great line from someone on one of the jeep carriers? I believe there was another quote, as Kurita's battle line came into view, and was closing on the fleeing carriers - "we've got them right where we want them!". Also funny was the reaction of sailors at first seeing the huge geysers of colored water where rounds were hitting around them (different color for different ships, to aid in spotting) - they didn't know what they were.

Posted by: rhomboid at October 23, 2015 09:48 PM (QDnY+)

140 The only real positive contributions that Mao's forces in China gave to the Allied war effort was saving airmen from capture by the Japanese and radioing to LeMay's 20th Air Force weather reports for the B-29s.

Posted by: Anna Puma at October 23, 2015 09:50 PM (4aTyy)

141 Read up on the Rape of Nanking some time. Even the Germans were appalled.
Even some Nazis were appalled. John Rabe for his part saved 200,000 Chinese

Posted by: boulder terlit hobo at October 23, 2015 09:50 PM (aLXXe)

142 The USS Johnston was one of three destroyers ordered to charge the Japanese battleships and cruisers at Leyte Gulf to buy time for a small force of escort carriers to evade the main Japanese battle fleet.

At the ship's commissioning, the new captain, Cmdr. Ernest Evans told his new crew: "This is going to be a fighting ship. I intend to go in harm's way, and anyone who doesn't want to go along had better get off right now."

None did.

Evans was as good as his word. Before charging the Japanese battleships and cruisers, he told his crew: "This will be a fight against overwhelming odds from which survival cannot be expected. We will do what damage we can." The Johnston eventually succumbed to a barrage of 14 inch shells.

For his actions at the Battle of Leyte Gulf, Cmdr. Ernest Evans was posthumously awarded the Medal of Honor.

Posted by: Radeaminit at October 23, 2015 09:51 PM (QolCq)

143 No really. The Nationalist did receive some equipment from the Soviet Union. 88 T-26 light tanks among it.

Didn't know that. Nazi Germany, Soviet Russia, and the United States, all helping the Nationalist Chinese. Still an odd grouping.

Posted by: Grey Fox at October 23, 2015 09:52 PM (bZ7mE)

144 Strange how the terminology doesn't quite translate into "Useless Faggot".

I read in the NME that the Useless Faggots are the guys who kicked Milo Yiannopoulos out of their band

Posted by: boulder terlit hobo at October 23, 2015 09:52 PM (aLXXe)

145 Oldendorf's fleet at Surigao Strait was almost the entire WWI battleship row from Pearl Harbor, a couple of them salvaged off the bottom. It was the last time anyone "crossed the T." Had his cruisers not run short of AP, there would have been no IJN survivors at all. And so the old Navy had its revenge, at last.

Posted by: Stringer Davis at October 23, 2015 09:53 PM (xq1UY)

146 Barrack Obama: Useless Faggot.

Posted by: Grampa Jimbo at October 23, 2015 09:53 PM (1ijHg)

147 Greetings:

I recently read John Costello's "The Pacific War 1941-1945" and all I can say is that I sure hope that our Navy's officer corps(e) is putting time in studying what went on in the southwest Pacific as the Han Chicoms continue on their Middle Kingdom 2.0 way.

Posted by: 11B40 at October 23, 2015 09:54 PM (abx5/)

148 Sorry guys. Jesus visited the Jap souls in Hell. Those that believed were saved.

Same for everyone.

Posted by: Grampa Jimbo at October 23, 2015 09:42 PM (1ijHg)


No problem with that per se except that the harrowing of hell is a myth concocted by the roman catholics. I mean, I have no problem with Christ saving those who have died in ther sins, since that is his domain, but you have to remember:

39 And one of the malefactors which were hanged railed on him, saying, If thou be Christ, save thyself and us.

40 But the other answering rebuked him, saying, Dost not thou fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation?

41 And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss.

42 And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.

43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise.

Posted by: Snoodling World Champion 1997 at October 23, 2015 09:54 PM (k9qR4)

149
Well Anna it's not being cranky, it's valuable addition, as always. Read Hoyt's Leyte Gulf book, will have to get the other one.

The thing with Halsey I don't recall, but surely it's a minor side issue?

I think Hornfischer did a good job bringing the highlights of an amazing true story to life for most readers. I would make no other claim. And as I noted way back up yonder at the start of the thread, according to commenter Yip, Hornfischer is friendly and open to contact/discussion with readers.

In no position to certify everything in Neptune's Inferno, either, but think it is worth reading for most people. Both for the perilous situation the US Navy found itself in at the time, and the way it brings home the shocking brutality and intensity of those surface battles.

Posted by: rhomboid at October 23, 2015 09:55 PM (QDnY+)

150 the japanese ate our men.....that is something i can't get out of my head.....

-
If the wind had been blowing the other way, they may well have eaten Bush 41. He was shot down bombing the island of Chichi Jima but was blown out to sea. Eight other airmen blown into the island were killed and eaten by the Japanese.

Posted by: The Great White Snark at October 23, 2015 09:55 PM (Nwg0u)

151 If the wind had been blowing the other way, they may well have eaten Bush 41
I'm open to the theory that someone ate Jeb, and that the guy running for office is the turd they dropped on their way out

Posted by: boulder terlit hobo at October 23, 2015 09:57 PM (aLXXe)

152 Do not confuse Nazis with German culture. German culture was highly Christian and dignified. During WW1, Britain, France and the U.S. demonized it. Yeah, the planned bank robbery of France was really stupid, barbaric and wrong. But, if you want to know when Christianity died in Europe, it was when France and Britain and the U.S. killed it during WW1.


Posted by: Grampa Jimbo at October 23, 2015 09:58 PM (1ijHg)

153 Bush 41 vomited on some Japs.

Posted by: Boss Moss at October 23, 2015 09:58 PM (STkZU)

154 Ah, now we have the anti-catholic portion of our eve.

#goodtimes

Posted by: weft cut-loop at October 23, 2015 09:58 PM (JmGFJ)

155 Remember when Barry was running in '08 and he told us one of his uncles liberated Auschwitz? Good times.

Posted by: Jane D'oh at October 23, 2015 09:58 PM (FsuaD)

156 I'm open to the theory that someone ate Jeb, and that the guy running for office is the turd they dropped on their way out

Posted by: boulder terlit hobo at October 23, 2015 09:57 PM (aLXXe)


How many Courics does Jeb! weigh in at?

Posted by: Josef K. at October 23, 2015 09:59 PM (RcpcZ)

157 Stringer, see my comment way up-thread? I interviewed one of the radar techs from the West Virginia, which first spotted and fired on the Japanese column in Surigao Strait.

Posted by: rhomboid at October 23, 2015 09:59 PM (QDnY+)

158 >>>That would be that Dunn woman briefly in the Obama
administration, the woman with the lizard tongue. I remember...Anita
Dunn. Yes, she spoke enthusiastically to a group about her admiration of
Mao.


Posted by: Jane D'oh at October 23, 2015 09:43 PM (FsuaD)<<<

To be honest, there's probably not many in this administration that aren't admires of Mao. I mean we even had Mao ornaments on the Christmas Tree.

Posted by: Beary and Mooch at October 23, 2015 09:59 PM (lqmAz)

159 I didn't know about Japs eating US soldiers?

As to nation building, we should do some here at home, after utterly destroying the biggest enemies of our country - the Left.

Posted by: @votermom at October 23, 2015 09:59 PM (cbfNE)

160 There's another legend, that as Johnson put on speed toward the heavy cruisers, Evans summoned his bugler, turned on the PA, and had him play the cavalry charge.

Posted by: Stringer Davis at October 23, 2015 10:00 PM (xq1UY)

161 Yeah, I may be a heretic. But so are you.

I choose to believe in a God that loves us.


Posted by: Grampa Jimbo at October 23, 2015 10:00 PM (1ijHg)

162 I'm open to the theory that someone ate Jeb, and that the guy running for office is the turd they dropped on their way out
Posted by: boulder terlit hobo
--------------------

I have no idea what you're talking about!

Posted by: Chris Christie at October 23, 2015 10:01 PM (MRbZD)

163 161
There's another legend, that as Johnson put on speed toward the heavy cruisers, Evans summoned his bugler, turned on the PA, and had him play the cavalry charge.


Posted by: Stringer Davis at October 23, 2015 10:00 PM (xq1UY)


That is so damned cool. Imagine if our troops could have done that in Afghanistan and Iraq.
Oh, who the hell am I fooling. Under the insane ROE they can't even fire at the enemy until they're fired upon first.

Posted by: Jane D'oh at October 23, 2015 10:02 PM (FsuaD)

164 Wasn't Auschwitz liberated by the Soviets?

Posted by: Boss Moss at October 23, 2015 10:03 PM (STkZU)

165 OT, but WWll related, does anyone know anything about this new, I guess, mini-series called " The Man in the High Castle"? Feature film production values, available on Amazon (I don't understand that business model.) Premise is, set in 1962, Germany and Japan won WWll.

Posted by: Vertov at October 23, 2015 10:03 PM (rRr9n)

166 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tanks_in_China

Reference for the T-26,s

Posted by: Tim in Illinois Old, Uniproved and TRUMP! for Emporer 2016 at October 23, 2015 10:04 PM (kLrYQ)

167 F'n japs.

Posted by: Weasel at October 23, 2015 10:04 PM (GBHgW)

168 I'm sorry. It's USS Johnston.

Posted by: Stringer Davis at October 23, 2015 10:04 PM (xq1UY)

169 Sorry guys. Jesus visited the Jap souls in Hell. Those that believed were saved.

Same for everyone.

Posted by: Grampa Jimbo

___________

I'm no theologian, but that's an awfully strange interpretation of how things go down.

I've never heard of somebody getting a 2nd chance that's already in Hell.

Posted by: Kal at October 23, 2015 10:05 PM (A3kYV)

170 Barrack had a Soviet Uncle?

Posted by: Boss Moss at October 23, 2015 10:05 PM (STkZU)

171 165
Wasn't Auschwitz liberated by the Soviets?


Posted by: Boss Moss at October 23, 2015 10:03 PM (STkZU)


Yes. Yes, it was. Thus, Barry is either lying, or one of his imaginary uncles was a Russian soldier.

Posted by: Jane D'oh at October 23, 2015 10:05 PM (FsuaD)

172
Speaking of Chichi Jima, I read the book about it by the Flags of Our Fathers author (Bradley) years back. The first 60 or so pages have to be the most incongruous, tortured (heh), weird bit of failed moral equivalence "prepping" ever committed to paper.

Stuff about treatment of non-native Native Americans, incidents in the Philippines involving the US, etc. Really weird, making the reader wonder "what's this shit about in a book on WWII?". All of it to soften the revulsion at Japanese mistreatment of POWs on that island, apparently. Even though that mistreatment (followed by cannibalism) was hardly worse than is documented throughout the war and the Pacific and Asian theaters.

My wild speculation (as I started to skim past the nonsense) was that Bradley must have received intolerable social pressures for his big book, and this was some half-assed penance to his peer group. Like I said, wild speculation. But the "WTF?" factor was quite dramatic there.

Posted by: rhomboid at October 23, 2015 10:06 PM (QDnY+)

173 OT, but WWll related, does anyone know anything about this new, I guess, mini-series called " The Man in the High Castle"? Feature film production values, available on Amazon (I don't understand that business model.) Premise is, set in 1962, Germany and Japan won WWll.

Posted by: Vertov


Haven't seen it but it's loosely based on a Kurt Vonnegut piece.

I still find it wholly unrealistic that the Japanese had the manpower to occupy any part of the US mainland while maintaining their colonies in Asia.

Posted by: weft cut-loop at October 23, 2015 10:06 PM (JmGFJ)

174 You die.

Saint Peter meets you and says "I have good news and bad news."

You say "OK, what's the good news?"

Saint Peter says "God is real."

You say "What's the bad news?"

Saint Peter replies "Boy, is She pissed!"


Posted by: Grampa Jimbo at October 23, 2015 10:07 PM (1ijHg)

175 Japanese People don't have souls.

Posted by: Boss Moss at October 23, 2015 10:07 PM (STkZU)

176 And now we've entered the ridic portion of the eve...

Posted by: weft cut-loop at October 23, 2015 10:09 PM (JmGFJ)

177 Well horde, got my biopsy results back today. I'm a happy camper. Stage 1, very treatable with Sprycel. White count was already way down.

Posted by: CSMBigBird at October 23, 2015 10:10 PM (xInes)

178 Rhomboid, he got carried away with his rhetoric in Last Stand Another of his pronouncements was to say the Battle of Leyte Gulf covered the largest expanse of ocean and then comments on the Battle of Midway without missing a beat or noting that at Midway the Japanese had forces from the Aleutians to Australia attacking.

As for forgiveness towards one's captors and enemies, the ones who put three of your friends against posts and shot them on trumped up war crime charges. I offer Jacob DeShazer. One of the eight Doolittle Raiders the Japanese captured. After his death, his wife and daughter published a book called Return of the Raider about his Christian missionary work in Japan after WWII.

http://annapuna.blogspot.com/2008/03/good-shepherd.html

Posted by: Anna Puma at October 23, 2015 10:10 PM (4aTyy)

179 Kal, Read yourself some Richard John Neuhaus.

There is a great quote about every theologian believes in universal salvation but only an idiot would preach it.




Posted by: Grampa Jimbo at October 23, 2015 10:10 PM (1ijHg)

180 Man in A High Castle was written by Phllip K Dick, not By Vonnegut.
I am curious about the series.

Posted by: @votermom at October 23, 2015 10:11 PM (cbfNE)

181 @164 Imagine if our troops could have done that in Afghanistan

But they did, Jane. The first incursion into Afghanistan was a cavalry charge.
By the Air Force.
They had to borrow saddles. All ours had been surplused.

Posted by: Stringer Davis at October 23, 2015 10:11 PM (xq1UY)

182 I looked up Sprycel, 30 days supply starts at $11,011.50. Glad I have insurance.

Posted by: CSMBigBird at October 23, 2015 10:11 PM (xInes)

183 Posted by: CSMBigBird at October 23, 2015 10:10 PM

Witness the power of a fully-operational Moron Horde (tm).

Seriously, congrats. Keep on trucking.

Posted by: weft cut-loop at October 23, 2015 10:11 PM (JmGFJ)

184 I think that the Germans were actively supplying the
Nationalist Chinese with arms and training prior to signing an alliance
with Japan. Which makes the only two countries to actively aid China
during the Second Sino-Japanese War the United States and Nazi Germany.

Posted by: Grey Fox at October 23, 2015 09:32 PM (bZ7mE)

Would not be surprised: Japs and Germans were on opposite sides in WWI, Germany lost all there coconut islands to Japan in the end.

Posted by: Burnt Toast at October 23, 2015 10:12 PM (NaeCR)

185
Congrats, CSM!

Posted by: rhomboid at October 23, 2015 10:12 PM (QDnY+)

186 Congratulations CSMBigBird

Posted by: chemjeff - go royals at October 23, 2015 10:12 PM (uZNvH)

187 Philip K. Dick: Pop a pill and go to Mars.


Posted by: Grampa Jimbo at October 23, 2015 10:13 PM (1ijHg)

188 Took Mrs CSM out to dinner. Told her I would never bitch about her pressing me to go to the pecker checkers ever again.

Posted by: CSMBigBird at October 23, 2015 10:13 PM (xInes)

189 Herman Wouk wrote of the battle in War and Remembrance:

-
He also used the battle as a metaphor for human fallibility and the limits of technology. The sea was filled cutting edge weapons and intelligence gathering equipment yet Halsey made a human error that almost led to disaster.

Posted by: The Great White Snark at October 23, 2015 10:13 PM (Nwg0u)

190 As astonishing as the details of this battle are, there were other pacific battles similar in size and scope.

Coral Sea, Midway, Leyte Gulf, Marianas turkey shoot.

And while this was going on, we had an equal military force in Europe.

Back before there was a Dungeons and Dragons tabletop game, there was a WWII air war in Europe. It came with maps, and cardboard tokens.

The allied player would send stacks of tokens to the target, and the German player would have stacks of fighters defending, and you rolled the dice to see how it came out. Incredibly tedious bookkeeping.

Posted by: Hayfield Volkovski at October 23, 2015 10:13 PM (ohIm3)

191 165 Wasn't Auschwitz liberated by the Soviets?


Yes.

Posted by: Puddleglum at October 23, 2015 10:14 PM (PCCjR)

192 congrats & prayers CSMBigBird!
What sort of C is it?

Posted by: @votermom at October 23, 2015 10:14 PM (cbfNE)

193 Well horde, got my biopsy results back today. I'm a
happy camper. Stage 1, very treatable with Sprycel. White count was
already way down.

Posted by: CSMBigBird at October 23, 2015 10:10 PM (xInes)
========================

That's wonderful news! I'm so happy for you !

Posted by: grammie winger, watching the fig tree at October 23, 2015 10:14 PM (dFi94)

194 Great news, CSM. Celebratory shots are on me.

Posted by: Chi at October 23, 2015 10:15 PM (MRbZD)

195 Chronic Melyoma Leukemia.

Posted by: CSMBigBird at October 23, 2015 10:15 PM (xInes)

196 Man in A High Castle was written by Phllip K Dick, not By Vonnegut.
I am curious about the series.

Posted by: @votermom


Ah, you're right. I get my mentally ill sci-fi writers mixed up.

Posted by: weft cut-loop at October 23, 2015 10:15 PM (JmGFJ)

197 174 OT, but WWll related, does anyone know anything about this new, I guess, mini-series called " The Man in the High Castle"? Feature film production values, available on Amazon (I don't understand that business model.) Premise is, set in 1962, Germany and Japan won WWll.

Posted by: Vertov

Haven't seen it but it's loosely based on a Kurt Vonnegut piece.

I still find it wholly unrealistic that the Japanese had the manpower to occupy any part of the US mainland while maintaining their colonies in Asia.


Posted by: weft cut-loop


Oh, I hear what you're saying. Also - evidently, I've just seen trailers - the Germans get the bomb first, and I'm under the impression that they were never as close as we thought they might be. Plus, how does Germany pull off an amphibious landing from across the Atlantic?

What seems to be more - interesting - is imagining a fascist occupation. There's a scene between a truck driver and an American/Nazi cop that is about as chilling/sickening as anything I've seen in a long time. And it's done so - casually.

Posted by: Vertov at October 23, 2015 10:15 PM (rRr9n)

198 Took Mrs CSM out to dinner. Told her I would never bitch about her pressing me to go to the pecker checkers ever again.

Posted by: CSMBigBird at October 23, 2015 10:13 PM (xInes)
====================================

Smart man. I hope she ordered the most expensive thing on the menu

Posted by: grammie winger, watching the fig tree at October 23, 2015 10:15 PM (dFi94)

199 Kal, Read yourself some Richard John Neuhaus.

There is a great quote about every theologian believes in universal salvation but only an idiot would preach it.




Posted by: Grampa Jimbo

_____________

I'm not going to get too deep in the weeds on this, but the idea that everyone that's sent to Hell gets to then go to Heaven is absurd. Only crackpots advocate that.

Salvation is open to everyone, but only in life, not death.

Posted by: Kal at October 23, 2015 10:16 PM (A3kYV)

200 Guess I get plastered this weekend, no drinking after I start Tuesday

Posted by: CSMBigBird at October 23, 2015 10:16 PM (xInes)

201 166 OT, but WWll related, does anyone know anything about this new, I guess, mini-series called " The Man in the High Castle"? Feature film production values, available on Amazon (I don't understand that business model.) Premise is, set in 1962, Germany and Japan won WWll.
Posted by: Vertov



Its based on a Philip K Dick book. I watched the series premier and liked it. The book is excellent.

Posted by: Puddleglum at October 23, 2015 10:16 PM (PCCjR)

202 *pats CSM on the back, hands beer *

Posted by: Mike Hammer, etc., etc. at October 23, 2015 10:16 PM (9mTYi)

203 Definitely not Vonnegut. I've read all that. Never heard of the other guy.

Posted by: Boss Moss at October 23, 2015 10:16 PM (STkZU)

204 PKD was a better writer than Vonnegut, imo.

Grim but thought provoking.

Vonnegut is too showy.

Posted by: @votermom at October 23, 2015 10:17 PM (cbfNE)

205 Man in A High Castle was written by Phllip K Dick, not By Vonnegut.
I am curious about the series.

Posted by: @votermom at October 23, 2015 10:11 PM (cbfNE)


Hrm, maybe you're thinking of "The Grasshopper Lies Heavy". Quite a story, if you can find it.

Posted by: Snoodling World Champion 1997 at October 23, 2015 10:17 PM (k9qR4)

206 178
Well horde, got my biopsy results back today. I'm a happy camper. Stage
1, very treatable with Sprycel. White count was already way down.

Posted by: CSMBigBird at October 23, 2015 10:10 PM (xInes)


Congrats! *pours some of husband's "good hooch* thru USB port*

Posted by: Jane D'oh at October 23, 2015 10:17 PM (FsuaD)

207 Vertov, you mean when the fine white flakes start drifting to the ground like snow. Yeah and the cop casually mentions it must be the insane asylum burning the bodies. Positively chilling.

Posted by: Anna Puma at October 23, 2015 10:17 PM (4aTyy)

208 The allied player would send stacks of tokens to the
target, and the German player would have stacks of fighters defending,
and you rolled the dice to see how it came out. Incredibly tedious
bookkeeping.

Posted by: Hayfield Volkovski at October 23, 2015 10:13 PM (ohIm3)


Not "Axis and Allies", eh?

Posted by: Stateless Infidel at October 23, 2015 10:18 PM (AC0lD)

209
Yeah, Japan occupying parts of the US is stretching the bounds of even "alternative" history.

Then again, the perfect produce in perfectly stacked piles, and the fresh soba noodles ...... hmmmm.

(well, we got that anyway, several Japanese grocery chains in CA)

Posted by: rhomboid at October 23, 2015 10:18 PM (QDnY+)

210 Congrats, CSM.

Posted by: Ricardo Kill at October 23, 2015 10:18 PM (ZEX26)

211 Speaking of Chichi Jima, I read the book about it by the Flags of Our Fathers author (Bradley) years back. The first 60 or so pages have to be the most incongruous, tortured (heh), weird bit of failed moral equivalence "prepping" ever committed to paper.

-
Quite true.

Posted by: The Great White Snark at October 23, 2015 10:18 PM (Nwg0u)

212 174:Haven't seen it but it's loosely based on a Kurt Vonnegut piece.


Nope, Philip K Dick.

Posted by: Puddleglum at October 23, 2015 10:19 PM (PCCjR)

213 201
Guess I get plastered this weekend, no drinking after I start Tuesday

Posted by: CSMBigBird at October 23, 2015 10:16 PM (xInes)


Enjoy and congratulations on the rest of your life...

Posted by: Stateless Infidel at October 23, 2015 10:19 PM (AC0lD)

214 The whiner pajama-boys today have NO idea or understanding of the courage and sacrifices made by guys in their teens and early twenties during the times of conflict.

Posted by: Mike Hammer, etc., etc. at October 23, 2015 10:19 PM (9mTYi)

215 Over Chichi Jima?

Posted by: Boss Moss at October 23, 2015 10:19 PM (STkZU)

216 A very large Thank You for your thoughts and prayers. I feel relieved. I still got grand baby spoiling to do.

Posted by: CSMBigBird at October 23, 2015 10:20 PM (xInes)

217 "Fucking Troll, I'll tell you I had the same
response. Throw my hands in the air and say , Fuck it we're outa here,
y'all can go to hell. And Lebanon did; went right to hell.



Let the whole fucking middle east burn in hell fire. How is that for a non response you fucking troll.

Posted by: Hayfield Volkovsk"

Well, we didn't exactly leave immediately. We were there for a little over a year afterwards. I know cause I was there for several of those months.

Posted by: Michigan's Punter at October 23, 2015 10:20 PM (Wo9OY)

218 After Obama's uncle liberated Auschwitz, he single-handedly took out Hitler. In the bunker. With his Swiss Army knife. Then he blew the bunker up.

Posted by: Jane D'oh at October 23, 2015 10:20 PM (FsuaD)

219
Guess I get plastered this weekend, no drinking after I start Tuesday

Posted by: CSMBigBird at October 23, 2015 10:16 PM (xInes)
=========================
Those bone marrow biopsies are the worst, though. I hope they put you under. I've had two where they didn't. I almost slugged the oncologist.
I'm so very happy that this is a treatable thing. I hope you are feeling well and that your treatments are over before you know it.


Posted by: grammie winger, watching the fig tree at October 23, 2015 10:20 PM (dFi94)

220 Damn sock!

Posted by: AshevilleRobert at October 23, 2015 10:20 PM (Wo9OY)

221 Wasn't Auschwitz liberated by the Soviets?

-
Them and Obama's uncle.

Posted by: The Great White Snark at October 23, 2015 10:21 PM (Nwg0u)

222 Mike Hammer, the young men who saw combat were from a harder world. These were the kids who survived the Depression and many went into the Navy because of it. Some even experienced the Dust Bowl.

Posted by: Anna Puma at October 23, 2015 10:21 PM (4aTyy)

223 I was just about to mention Nanking. I mean, I
realize The Holocaust, but I can't think of an instance where the Nazis
took a major city and just started killing, in brutal ways, nearly
everyone, all just for fun and sport.



Posted by: Vertov at October 23, 2015 09:38 PM (rRr9n)

In response to US's return, Japs went all out in Manila, killed about 100,000... The US killed pretty much all the Japs left after that with about a 50:1 kill ratio.

Posted by: Burnt Toast at October 23, 2015 10:21 PM (NaeCR)

224
So did they wait too long to do this series, seeing as how the gap between normal life and Axis-occupied has, uh, narrowed in some ways of late? (I keed, I keed ....)

Well the critical question about this series - does it cost anything?

Accidental member of Am. Prime, to end in December, I should know, but .....

Posted by: rhomboid at October 23, 2015 10:22 PM (QDnY+)

225 I don't remember much of the book "Man in a High Castle" but I think the premise was the Germans didn't have to invade the US once they had ICBMs with nukes.

Especially with defeated US forces in Europe, the US surrendered. The Germans just sent over people who made the decisions while the Americans carried out the orders of the German officers.

And if I remember it correctly, the Germans didn't control all of the US, just the east coast.

It was a long time ago, and I didn't really enjoy the book.

Posted by: Hayfield Volkovski at October 23, 2015 10:22 PM (ohIm3)

226 Is this the game you are talking about?

http://preview.tinyurl.com/npguslq

Posted by: Tim in Illinois Old, Uniproved and TRUMP! for Emporer 2016 at October 23, 2015 10:23 PM (kLrYQ)

227 If you haven't acutally read "The Man in the High Castle" by PKD, you won't get "The Grasshopper Lie Heavy" joke. Silly Vonneugut fans. What a waste of time.

Posted by: Snoodling World Champion 1997 at October 23, 2015 10:23 PM (k9qR4)

228 One of the interesting things about Lyete Gulf, was that some of the US battleships that participated were previously "sunk"at Pearl Harbor, refloated, refitted, and put back in business.

Posted by: AshevilleRobert at October 23, 2015 10:23 PM (Wo9OY)

229 Oh, I hear what you're saying. Also - evidently, I've just seen trailers - the Germans get the bomb first, and I'm under the impression that they were never as close as we thought they might be. Plus, how does Germany pull off an amphibious landing from across the Atlantic?

Posted by: Vertov


I think the German occupation was slightly, if only slightly more plausible.

Again, haven't read the source material (obviously), but if the Germans hadn't decided that the Slavs and eastern europeans were untermenschen, plenty of recruits for the taking. And, yeah, don't invade Russia in the winter.

Posted by: weft cut-loop at October 23, 2015 10:24 PM (JmGFJ)

230 215
The whiner pajama-boys today have NO idea or understanding of the
courage and sacrifices made by guys in their teens and early twenties
during the times of conflict.





Posted by: Mike Hammer, etc., etc. at October 23, 2015 10:19 PM (9mTYi)


Husband and I discussed this very thing tonight. If we had a draft today, we'd be doomed. The families of these Snowflakes would be filing lawsuits and the Snowflakes wouldn't be able to pass the most basic physical tests.

A different world. And Obama and his treating the military like One Big Social Experiment hasn't helped. It's driving out our best and brightest.

Wait until Hillary! is CiC.

Posted by: Jane D'oh at October 23, 2015 10:24 PM (FsuaD)

231 Kal, "All things are possible with God."

You may be right.

Every Sunday, during the Mass (Yeah you guessed Catholic right) there is a prayer for "those that died in your friendship."

What is the point of praying for the saved? If God isn't faithful to the ones that love Him, huh?

I pray for the unfaithful departed. I bet that if Jesus presented himself to my wife's aunt, who was a sweet and loving person while also being an atheist, in Hell, she would go "OK, I was wrong. You are Lord."

Posted by: Grampa Jimbo at October 23, 2015 10:24 PM (1ijHg)

232 Tinyurl had a join Hillary and take on the NRA ad.

Posted by: Boss Moss at October 23, 2015 10:24 PM (STkZU)

233 In WWII Paris and Manila were declared open cities and peacefully surrendered to the Germans and Japanese. When the Allies retook both cities, the Germans and Japanese fought almost house to house in both. Thereby inflicting great damage.

Odd aeronautical footnote. IIRC the J8M-1 Raiden in the NASM collection was found abandoned on a boulevard in Manila.

Posted by: Anna Puma at October 23, 2015 10:25 PM (4aTyy)

234 chemjeff - did you poop out on me or are you just generally drunk?




KC 2-1, bottom of the 7th

Posted by: grammie winger, watching the fig tree at October 23, 2015 10:25 PM (dFi94)

235 Michigan's Punter at October 23, 2015 10:20 PM

Have to apologize for losing my temper. It was a sore spot with me. I quit paying much attention after the truck bomb.

Posted by: Hayfield Volkovski at October 23, 2015 10:25 PM (ohIm3)

236 208 Vertov, you mean when the fine white flakes start drifting to the ground like snow. Yeah and the cop casually mentions it must be the insane asylum burning the bodies. Positively chilling.


Posted by: Anna Puma


Exactly. And in the scene the cop is such a good guy. He stops to see what's wrong, helps the guy change a flat tire. Then gives him a sandwich his wife made for him. And then, in the most casual way you can imagine, says, yeah, they're burning the insane and the cripples.

Like I said, I've only seen a few trailers, but my first thought was they should show this in high schools.

I've taught film in a university, and I've shown "Night and Fog" (holocaust) to really smart kids. They had no idea.

Posted by: Vertov at October 23, 2015 10:26 PM (rRr9n)

237 Too bad our nation has proven totally unworthy of this and other victories. Men thinking of going into the military or are currently in the military should know that if they die it will almost certainly be in vain. You are less than a pawn to the administration. Atlas shrugging need not simply involve the creative people but also the brave. Let Pajama boy die for this Frankenstein monster of a republic.

Posted by: Naes at October 23, 2015 10:26 PM (Ypc8j)

238
Anna I mentioned earlier in response to Jane's comments on today's generation that, physically, the WWII conscript pool had a lot of problems, a very high rejection rate. Depression. Different country.

Posted by: rhomboid at October 23, 2015 10:26 PM (QDnY+)

239 "Guess I get plastered this weekend, no drinking after I start Tuesday"


Do it. Piss off the wife, the neighbors, in laws, screw it.

Posted by: Ricardo Kill at October 23, 2015 10:27 PM (ZEX26)

240 Mike Hammer, the young men who saw combat were from a harder world. These were the kids who survived the Depression and many went into the Navy because of it. Some even experienced the Dust Bowl.

-
Yeah, well, did they suffer from microaggressions?

Posted by: The Great White Snark at October 23, 2015 10:27 PM (Nwg0u)

241 Well I guess I best get back to writing fiction. Got a U-boat trying to sneak up on the passenger ship carrying Sister Mary Claire and Sister Miriam, need to finish that.

Posted by: Anna Puma at October 23, 2015 10:29 PM (4aTyy)

242 241
Mike Hammer, the young men who saw combat were from a harder world.
These were the kids who survived the Depression and many went into the
Navy because of it. Some even experienced the Dust Bowl.



-

Yeah, well, did they suffer from microaggressions?

Posted by: The Great White Snark at October 23, 2015 10:27 PM (Nwg0u)


Lol. Would the term "trigger warning" in a time of war be a microaggression? I'm confused.

Posted by: Jane D'oh at October 23, 2015 10:29 PM (FsuaD)

243 Great. A troll doth appear.

Posted by: Jane D'oh at October 23, 2015 10:30 PM (FsuaD)

244 Yeah he was on the dead end of the last thread too. I think he's a twelve year old from Canada.

Posted by: grammie winger, watching the fig tree at October 23, 2015 10:30 PM (dFi94)

245 Oh, a Canadian troll. How quaint.

Posted by: Jane D'oh at October 23, 2015 10:31 PM (FsuaD)

246 KC 2-1, bottom of the 7th
Posted by: grammie winger, watching the fig tree at October 23, 2015 10:25 PM (dFi94)


I'm lurking . . . just doesn't feel right to me to post about baseball on this thread tho (go Royals!). Waiting for ONT.

Posted by: filbert at October 23, 2015 10:31 PM (/j9PE)

247 @229 Yes, and @7, Rhomboid interviewed a sailor who was on one of them.

Try to imagine the ignominy of being defeated by a fleet you'd sunk once already.

Posted by: Stringer Davis at October 23, 2015 10:32 PM (xq1UY)

248 Yeah he was on the dead end of the last thread too. I think he's a twelve year old from Canada.

Posted by: grammie winger, watching the fig tree at October 23, 2015 10:30 PM (dFi94)


Got to be a Trudeau groupie.

Posted by: Alberta Oil Peon at October 23, 2015 10:32 PM (0yhH4)

249 Where the f is my ONT? Maet, Cdr M - go ahead and hate Ace but don't take it out on me.

Posted by: Jeff E at October 23, 2015 10:32 PM (aAmrC)

250 Ray-ray The Ill loves us so much he insists on laying a big fat wet one where'err he goes.

Posted by: weft cut-loop at October 23, 2015 10:33 PM (JmGFJ)

251 just doesn't feel right to me to post about baseball on this thread tho
==================================




You're right filbert. I apologize.


Posted by: grammie winger, watching the fig tree at October 23, 2015 10:33 PM (dFi94)

252 What the heck is happening on Blue Bloods? An SJW is faking death threats against herself and everyone isn't validating her feelings. I thought this was network TV, but they missed The Narrative completely.

Posted by: Punching up at October 23, 2015 10:33 PM (NnnZy)

253 I'm waiting for the christening of the garbage scow, Michelle Obama.

Posted by: Jane D'oh at October 23, 2015 10:33 PM (FsuaD)

254 Tim in Illinois Old, Uniproved and TRUMP! for Emporer 2016 at October 23, 2015 10:23 PM

Didn't see your question.

That one is at least similar. The one I remember, cardboard punch out tokens were mostly gray with black lettering. There were extensive rules.

Posted by: Hayfield Volkovski at October 23, 2015 10:34 PM (ohIm3)

255 "the young men who saw combat were from a harder world.
These were the kids who survived the Depression and many went into the
Navy because of it. Some even experienced the Dust Bowl.
"


Lots of farm boys from the South and Plains and Midwest. They were out driving horse teams and tractors and reapers. No real alternative. A lot went to Cali' as Oakies.

Posted by: Ricardo Kill at October 23, 2015 10:35 PM (ZEX26)

256 I remember hearing that in one of Obama's stupid books (Dreams of my Father)? he talked about his Marxist "daddy" having a U.S. flag-draped coffin in Africa.

He had to have been high, or was/is mentally deranged.

Posted by: Jane D'oh at October 23, 2015 10:36 PM (FsuaD)

257 "'m waiting for the christening of the garbage scow, Michelle Obama."


Who's skedded to bust the box of Thunderbird?

Posted by: Ricardo Kill at October 23, 2015 10:37 PM (ZEX26)

258 253: Well, Tom Sellek is a conservative (by Hollywood standards anyway).

Posted by: Puddleglum at October 23, 2015 10:37 PM (PCCjR)

259 IT'S A TRAP!!!!!

Posted by: Admiral Ackbar at October 23, 2015 10:37 PM (STkZU)

260 @255

This Maybe?

Avalon Hill's Luftwaffe.

http://preview.tinyurl.com/ou98apv

Posted by: Tim in Illinois Old, Uniproved and TRUMP! for Emporer 2016 at October 23, 2015 10:37 PM (kLrYQ)

261 What a coincidence; Trolls suck rats!

Posted by: weft cut-loop at October 23, 2015 10:37 PM (JmGFJ)

262 grammie nah I'm here, just watching the game

Royals score again!

Posted by: chemjeff - go royals at October 23, 2015 10:38 PM (uZNvH)

263 An Uncle got me and my brother expensive Avalon Hill games once. The Napoleon one.

Posted by: Admiral Ackbar at October 23, 2015 10:39 PM (STkZU)

264 Another troll?

Posted by: Ricardo Kill at October 23, 2015 10:39 PM (ZEX26)

265 U.S.S. Barack Obama

http://tinyurl.com/obampdx

U.S.S. Michelle Obama


http://tinyurl.com/oma75bq

Posted by: chemjeff - go royals at October 23, 2015 10:40 PM (uZNvH)

266 Dang it.

Posted by: Boss Moss at October 23, 2015 10:40 PM (STkZU)

267 You're right filbert. I apologize.


Posted by: grammie winger, watching the fig tree at October 23, 2015 10:33 PM (dFi94)


Of course, given the WW2 vets I've known (like my father-in-law who spent a year and a half in a Luftwaffe POW camp), they'd just as likely chew me out for getting all reverential of them as they would to appreciate the reverence.

It really was a better generation than some which came after.

Posted by: filbert at October 23, 2015 10:40 PM (/j9PE)

268 Memphis and Temple are undefeated. Truly the end times. Memphis if pretty good. Watching the Memphis/Tulsa game. Lots of scoring. 49-35 on ESPN and its still the third quarter.

Posted by: Puddleglum at October 23, 2015 10:40 PM (PCCjR)

269 266
U.S.S. Barack Obama

http://tinyurl.com/obampdx

U.S.S. Michelle Obama


http://tinyurl.com/oma75bq

Posted by: chemjeff - go royals at October 23, 2015 10:40 PM (uZNvH)


PERFECT

Posted by: Jane D'oh at October 23, 2015 10:42 PM (FsuaD)

270 ESPN has found there new shiny gay football player to over hype. They are going to do some over wrought piece on him tomorrow during Gameday. I'll be asleep.

Posted by: Puddleglum at October 23, 2015 10:42 PM (PCCjR)

271 Great naval battles with powerful fleets are a thing of the past.

Posted by: cm9000 at October 23, 2015 10:43 PM (2TUVm)

272 Walmart has been buying back their stock for years. This year it lost one third of it's value.

Posted by: Boss Moss at October 23, 2015 10:44 PM (STkZU)

273 We have a bouncing baby ONT.

Posted by: filbert at October 23, 2015 10:45 PM (/j9PE)

274 ONT is open for business

Posted by: AshevilleRobert at October 23, 2015 10:45 PM (Wo9OY)

275 ESPN has found there new shiny gay football player to over hype. They are going to do some over wrought piece on him tomorrow during Gameday. I'll be asleep.

Posted by: Puddleglum at October 23, 2015 10:42 PM (PCCjR)


Block that kick! Block that kick!

Posted by: Just the punchline at October 23, 2015 10:45 PM (0yhH4)

276 Bring out your dead.

Posted by: Boss Moss at October 23, 2015 10:45 PM (STkZU)

277 Been watching a show on NatGeo about another possible pic of Billy the Kid. I think it's real. Strange photo but things really line up.

Looks like him and some of his crew.

Posted by: Ricardo Kill at October 23, 2015 10:46 PM (ZEX26)

278 oh you're kidding me

Posted by: chemjeff - go royals at October 23, 2015 10:46 PM (uZNvH)

279 241 "Yeah, well, did they suffer from microaggressions?"

Nothing micro about their aggression I'd say.

Posted by: rabidfox at October 23, 2015 10:46 PM (EW9tX)

280 Tim in Illinois Old,

I'm thinking it was an Avalon Hill game, but I'm thinking it was air war over europe. But it's really a faint remembrance. I just remember the table top with the stacks of tokens and the rule book.

Posted by: Hayfield Volkovski at October 23, 2015 10:46 PM (ohIm3)

281 Just gonna drop this little nugget here.
**TRIGGER WARNING**
May induce vapors among the hyper-sensitive:

The first American General to become a casualty in the attack on Germany in 1943 was Brigadier General Nathan Bedford Forrest III. He was the great-grandson of Lieutenant General Nathan Bedford Forrest (Confederate States of America), and was carrying on the military tradition of his namesake, when the lead heavy bomber he was in went down off the coast of Germany. For some time, hope remained that he had survived, as members of the bomber squadron saw parachutes, and so he was listed as missing in action. A year later, the General was declared legally dead. Of the nine crewmen who were able to parachute out of the plane, all but one died in the water, and it was discovered that the general's body had been washed ashore at Bug, Reugen Island, Germany. German records show that he was first buried on September 28, 1943, at Wiek, Germany.

Six years later, the general was reburied in Section 11 of Arlington National Cemetery. He was 38 years old at the time of his death and one of the youngest generals in the Army.

General Forrest III graduated from West Point in 1928. Commissioned a Second Lieutenant in the Cavalry, he later transferred to the Air Force in 1929. He made a Brigadier General at 37 -- four years younger than his famous great-grandfather.

Posted by: Mike Hammer, etc., etc. at October 23, 2015 10:46 PM (9mTYi)

282 Looks like him and some of his crew.
Posted by: Ricardo Kill
---------------

Playing croquet.
Just my luck.

Posted by: Billy the Kid at October 23, 2015 10:48 PM (9mTYi)

283 ESPN has found there new shiny gay football player
to over hype. They are going to do some over wrought piece on him
tomorrow during Gameday. I'll be asleep.

Posted by: Puddleglum at October 23, 2015 10:42 PM (PCCjR)



ESPN is the MSNBC of sports. And it sucks just as bad

Posted by: TheQuietMan at October 23, 2015 10:48 PM (DiZBp)

284 Jeb up! Come on get down with the spicness!

You bigot, Jeb up! Come on get down with the spicness!

You racist, Jeb up! Come on get down with the spicness!

Open up the gates, and let them flow into me!

Posted by: YebSturbed at October 23, 2015 10:48 PM (WQHz4)

285 I know this book, Ryan. Your conclusions were all wrong. Halsey acted stupidly.

Marco Ramius, Captain, Red October.

Posted by: JB1000 at October 23, 2015 10:48 PM (ZPPN5)

286 In his book,"The Great Divorce" C.S. Lewis writes of Jesus appearing to every soul in Hell. Some accept Him. Some are so blind and willful they choose Hell rather than Him.

So the idea that people have a chance to redeem themselves after death isn't something Grandpa Jimbo just dreamt up. Lewis was not a Catholic.

Posted by: Donna &&&&&V.( brandishing ampersands) at October 23, 2015 11:01 PM (P8951)

287 37
"We both concluded that we'd be doomed. Two thirds wouldn't pass the
most basic physical requirements. The other third would be crying for
mommy and daddy to save them."



Shove 'em into the front lines anyway, and cue up Nelson Muntz.

No, cue up the opening to "Enemies at the Gates."

Posted by: Richard McEnroe at October 23, 2015 11:21 PM (Kucy5)

288 Halsey was a jackass and should have been cashiered immediately after Leyte. If the Japanese had run the Surigao Straits like they could have done we'd be talking about the 71st anniversary of one of the most catastrophic defeats in US naval history. Like Pearl Harbor-sized.

Posted by: David Gillies at October 24, 2015 12:46 AM (tjHrt)

289 Never corner a rat.

Posted by: ALH at October 24, 2015 02:52 AM (Z56vq)

290 Japs had big fuel problems by the time of this fight.

Posted by: torabora at October 24, 2015 04:01 AM (7X6gP)

291 My uncle spent his whole Naval career in the Pacific. He told me a story about how the U.S. Navy was shooting down Japanese reconnaissance planes as far back as 1939. When they recovered the pilot from the sea he said they had one of two choices... go to the mainland prison or stay on board ship translating Jap communications. He said all stayed on board.

Posted by: roger martin at October 24, 2015 08:08 AM (HR/Ze)

292 @291.. nice.

Posted by: Yip at October 24, 2015 10:15 AM (e7T6D)

293 The Nips made a pretty good fight of it.

Consider the ordeals of Taffy 3 and the destroyers.

And Halsey wasn't the kind of guy who was going to ignore a chance to take out the last Nip carriers.

Something Spruance had been criticized for not doing in the Marianas.

I've always thought the Annapolis types (Ernie King among them) never forgave him for working so well with MacArthur in the Solomons - New guinea campaign.

Posted by: formwiz at October 24, 2015 11:02 AM (3rwvI)

294 May God rest the decent Americans lost in the fight anyway.

Posted by: NUECES at October 24, 2015 12:05 PM (avlDR)

295 And if Halsey had not left the back door unguarded while he went off to chase his trophies; there would be even less loss of life for the U.S.

Posted by: mildy citrusy at October 24, 2015 03:24 PM (4dhg7)

296 It's also the anniversary of the Charge of the Light Brigade and the battle at Agincourt (Henry V's famous "Band of Brothers" speech from the eponymous Shakespeare play): http://vaviper.blogspot.com/2010/10/today-in-history-agincourt-charge-of.html

Posted by: debby at October 24, 2015 04:55 PM (2yJID)

297 However, the photo is of the USS Columbia (CL-56) being hit on January
6, 1945. It survived.

Posted by: PersonFromPorlock at October 24, 2015 09:06 PM (U4QC6)

298 Evans was as good as his word. Before charging the Japanese battleships and cruisers, he told his crew: "This will be a fight against overwhelming odds from which survival cannot be expected. We will do what damage we can."

That was Copeland on the Sammy B, not Evans.

Posted by: Tyrconnell at October 24, 2015 10:21 PM (jeKFO)

299 As for the Japs...they're burning in Hell.



Posted by: Rykehaven at October 23, 2015 08:40 PM (ukAh4)


Actually there are some Japanese laid to rest at Ft. Sam Nat'l Cemetery, Texas. They were POWs who died while in detention in Karnes City. The US Army interred them, raised tombstones over their graves, and notified their families after hostilities concluded.

That's the kind of people we are.

Posted by: furious at October 25, 2015 01:14 AM (8lw4l)

300 If you're ever in the UK, please do visit this: http://www.madingleyamericancemetery.info/

Posted by: Patrick Carroll at October 25, 2015 08:53 AM (hoUpO)

301 The Americans used civilians for live human experiments with nuclear weapons and burned children alive. Chilling.

Easily some of the most heinous and cowardly war crimes of all time.

Posted by: Gurns at October 28, 2015 02:22 AM (EhCLZ)

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