Confederate Yankee
June 27, 2006
NYT Announces Formation of Shadow Government
Heh:
In a move experts said was expected for months, New York Times executive editor Bill Keller today announced the formation of a shadow government for the US, effective immediately.
"The power that we have taken is not something to be taken lightly," said Keller. "The responsibility of it weighs most heavily on us and is among the most agonizing decisions I've faced as an editor."
Times' publisher "Pinch" Sulzberger was named shadow President, but was said to be disappointed that he wasn't named shadow Prime Minister.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
07:49 AM
| Comments (4)
| Add Comment
| Trackbacks (Suck)
1
From perusing other threads, it is clear most folks here at CY see the expansion of presidential authority and secrecy regarding national security as essential to fighting terrorists.
An honest question: are you in any way concerned about how the precedent of enlarged presidential authority and secrecy will give cover to future presidents using such powers improperly?
For instance, what is to keep a president Hillary from citing the need to combat homegrown terrorism as justification for increasing surveilance of gun ownership, perhaps even going so far as to detain without trial certain questionable individuals with many guns and anti-Hillary political views? What she decides to detain pro-life activists under flimsy evidence? What if she uses information from tapped phone calls and financial transactions to to smear political opponents? Bush has perhaps given her the cover to do all this in secrecy.
I'm not saying any of this will happen, or is likely to. But these kinds of things have happened many times in American history, and they can happen again.
Posted by: Nate at June 27, 2006 12:24 PM (UlkGh)
2
Guess no one is worried about Hillary. Her move to the center appears to have paid off.
Posted by: Nate at June 28, 2006 12:02 AM (UlkGh)
Hide Comments
| Add Comment
June 26, 2006
Punking Rosemary's Brother's Baby
Normally I'd leave gossip sheets such as the New York Post's infamous Page Six alone, but as this particular edition features pro-military filmmaker tearing anti-war pretty war George Clooney it was hard to resist:
June 26, 2006 -- GEORGE Clooney may be Steven Soderbergh's muse, but the director's ex-agent sure doesn't seem to be a fan of the outspoken Oscar winner.
Pat Dollard was Soderbergh's 10- percenter until he ditched his lucrative Tinseltown career to make a pro-war documentary about U.S. Marines fighting insurgents in Iraq. Last year, his Humvee convoy was blown up in Ramadi, killing two Marines and sending Dollard to the hospital with a concussion and shrapnel wounds.
So it's understandable that Dollard might have been annoyed when Clooney chastised Democrats last year for not having the guts to condemn the war. While Dollard was careful not to name names, he told Page Six that he went into "a black rage" while in Iraq after reading a certain movie star's pompous pronouncements online.
"I read something on the Internet in which someone was patting himself on the back for having the courage to oppose the war," Dollard recalled. In an obvious reference to Clooney, who owns a villa in Italy, he said, "They actually equate bravery with speaking out against the president because [losing fans] might cost them one less servant at their Italian villa . . . It put me into a black rage and made me sick to my stomach."
Squeamish viewers of Dollard's "Young Americans" will likewise be reaching for their Tums. "It's the most graphic real-war documentary ever made," Dollard says. "It has the spirit and experience of the grunts, absolutely unfettered. I never had an officer standing over my shoulder supervising what I was doing. But I also have the president of Iraq, the prime minister, the generals - so it's not just a grunt's-eye view."
Dollard says his enthusiasm for the war has left some of his former showbiz colleagues cold. "Being a Republican in Hollywood today is not much different than being a communist in Hollywood in the 1950s," he said. "I'm not trying to overstate the case, but the reality is there is a blacklist in Hollywood. It's very McCarthy-like. It just shows the hypocrisy of the left."
And what does left-leaning Soderbergh think of "Young Americans"? "He loved the footage," Dollard says. "He's seen a lot of it, and he has given me some advice."
Dollard says he's in talks with HBO and Showtime about airing "Young Americans" but may end up releasing it as a DVD. "Given the sort of grass-roots support and cult status that it's been getting, it's going to come out somehow," he said. The trailer can be viewed on patdollard.com.
As many of you know, I found out about Pat Dollard several weeks ago and I've been promoting "Young Americans" as new trailers come online. I think—based upon the trailers I've seen so far—that the project may develop into the definitive documentary about the U.S. Marines in the Iraq War.
As alluded to above, Dollard is a Hollywood rebel for making this documentary. He isn't being backed by any major producers or studios. Everything he filmed was paid for out of his own funds, which are now running short. If you want to support the completion of "Young Americans" and show the rest of America what our Marines are
really doing, instead of listing to George Clooney opine from his lakeside Italian villa, simply go to
Pat's Web site and drop a couple of bucks (say, a ten-spot?) via the Paypal link.
You can help produce a movie, and you don't have to be a millionaire.
Consider it as film-making via an
Army of Davids.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
04:34 PM
| Comments (0)
| Add Comment
| Trackbacks (Suck)
Prosecute Them
I just sent the following email to comments@whitehouse.gov,
Dear Mr. President,
I strongly urge you to listen to the request from NY Rep. Peter King, and instruct the Justice Department to investigate and prosecute editor Bill Keller, and reporters Eric Lichtblau,and James Risen of the New York Times under Title 18 > Part I > Chapter 37 > § 793. Gathering, transmitting or losing defense information, and any other applicable crimes.
I also ask that you request that the Justice Department seek out the identities of those who have leaked the existence of this program to the NY Times, and prosecute them as well.
I recognize that this is an extraordinary request, but we all recognize that we live in extraordinary times. A major newspaper has deemed itself the ultimate gatekeeper of national security information, and it then disclosed information about a specific program, hence destroying it's effectiveness.
Investigating and aggressively prosecuting these crimes will hopefully reign in those who seek to profit from disclosing classified information, and it will hopefully spare the lives of Americans such disclosures put in jeopardy.
Thank you respectfully and sincerely,
Bob Owens
Confederate Yankee Blog
http://confederateyankee.mu.nu
If you, too feel that the
New York Times went over the line, I'd suggest sending along an email of your own.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
12:10 PM
| Comments (17)
| Add Comment
| Trackbacks (Suck)
1
I love reading your blog. As a wife of an Active Duty soldier, it seems all too much the truth is swept under the rug as to what is REALLY going on, and all too often these days our men and women in uniform are being used as a scapegoat for deeper problems at hand. I support our troops and those like yourself who do not sit quietly in the shadows and allow the Liberal media (or drive by media as stated by Rush Limbaugh) to be the only source of information available. God bless and I hope you can enjoy this link i received, as I believe THIS is what American's need to see but are being denied.
http://objflicks.com/GladiatorAmericanStyle.htm
Sincerely,
Lindsey A Gile
wife to SPC Brandon Gile
US PARATROOPER
USAJFKSWCS
Posted by: lindsey gile at June 26, 2006 01:48 PM (cvf6P)
2
I don't know if this will have an impact, but consider that an effort be made to obtain a list of those who adverstise on the Times and boycott them. This would likely hurt more than anything.
Posted by: David Caskey at June 26, 2006 01:49 PM (6wTpy)
3
I have written the President, as well as my other elected officials. The continuing exposure of classified material puts America in jeopardy. Yet the government as yet to act.
I fear if we continue to ignore the law concerning the release of claasified material, the framework in which that law is applied will become moot. I don't want my grandchildren under islamic law or the bhurka. It is plain that the Times would prefer it.
Posted by: MCPO Airdale at June 26, 2006 01:54 PM (3nKvy)
4
I generally don't like to stereotype (I leave that to the conservatives. Oops!) but this is typical wag-the-dog rhetoric. I hate to revoke your poetic license, CY, but every day since the birth of the US has been extraordinary times. I don't recall any era of US called the "ordinary times". There will always be an enemy of the US wanting to "destroy" everything we hold dear and we will always live in extraordinary times. The rhetoric is historical. pre-911 thinking? What about pre-civil war thinking? pre-pearl harbor thinking? pre-industrial revolution thinking? Pre-US Cuban Missile crisis thinking? The list can go on. The problem for conservatives is that general public is finding out that the conservative solution to the problem isn't working. The program has been in existence for almost 5 years and we just got zarcowi (mis-spelled on purpose) thru Iraqi intel and we still can't find Osama or his direct reports.
So let's attack the free press. Its the only branch of the republic the conservatives don't control (the 4th estate). Its blatantly obvious that this administration feels no compulsion to inform Congress of what it is doing or adhere to laws that the Congress passes. Congress has long given up the right to oversight which is its express responsibility so it becomes the press's obligation to make sure that what the executive branch does doesn't go over the line. So polls out say most of the public is fine with wire tapping. Good. But of course, the public is also fine with knowing what their govt is doing.
The problem with the argument of "fill-in-the-blank" endangers the US is that it assumes not saying anything makes us any safer. You don't think the bad guys don't know that we are monitoring every signal/transaction in and out of the middle east? I mean its not to hard to put 2+2 together when terrorist A calls from a safe hole in Afgan/Iraq and 3 minutes later he is eating a 500 lb bomb or that after hitting a couple of ATMs, that terrorist B is wondering why he can't withdraw money from his phony accounts.
Its almost like you want to believe that we live in some pseudo-James Bond plot where if the bad guys had been tipped off by the London Times that 007's watch was also a laser beam, they would have taken that away and Sean Connery (my fav) would still be locked away in some dungeon.
The only people that aren't aware of what the US govt is doing, is the citizens of the US.
Posted by: matt a at June 26, 2006 03:06 PM (IHMpz)
5
matt a - Your lack of insight is only outweighed by your verbosity.
Freedom of the press does not include the right to put American lives in danger. The power of the Executive is not derives soley through Congressional approval. It derives from the Constitution. Having said that, the current program under discussion was briefed and nobody in that congress has objected.
As for your assertion that conservatives create crisis in order to gain power. . . it's laughable.
Posted by: MCPO Airdale at June 26, 2006 05:39 PM (3nKvy)
6
All of Matt a's rhetoric aside, I sent a note to the President's office too.
It is not a matter of attacking the so-called free press. It is a matter of keeping the free press from freely divulging national secrets that harm this nation's ability to deal directly and forcefully with terrorism, terrorists and their financing.
Having spent more than 36 years protecting America's most secret of secrets, I think I know just a wee bit more than the likes of Matt A.
Posted by: Retired Spy at June 26, 2006 05:39 PM (Xw2ki)
7
Shouldn't the other newspapers like the WSJ, LA Times, and other publications also be prosecuted.
Didn't the WSJ break the story?
Posted by: downeastbeach at June 26, 2006 05:47 PM (JKQGb)
8
Prosecute the media for letting me know what my government does in my name?
No thanks.
Posted by: Robert at June 26, 2006 05:56 PM (SWXS5)
9
So I guess it would be ok for them to publish the identity of a CIA operative who acts in your name?
Oh wait. That's a crime too.
What about nuclear secrets? Also a crime? Who'd have guessed?
If you really see things in such simple terms... well, such words aren't usually considered polite.
Posted by: Dawnfire82 at June 26, 2006 10:14 PM (RvTAf)
10
The WSJ didn't "break" the story. They were the second wave after the NYT broke it. It was already out of the bag at that point.
Posted by: Purple Avenger at June 27, 2006 04:28 AM (M0Kdm)
11
MCPO - No one has the right to put Americans in danger. Not even the President("bring it on!" -- to the terrorists). The sad part is you definitely in to at least the third cup of the conservative kool-aid philosophy. NYT isn't putting us in danger, its the terrorists out there that are putting us in danger. NYT doesn't want to kill anyone. But GWB with God, Congress and the Supreme Court on his side can't seem to find them so lets divert the public's attention by focusing in on the messenger of their inneptness...
As far as conservatives needing a crisis to gain power, where did these slogans come from? "War on Drugs", "War on Marriage", "War on Christmas", "War on Values", "War on terror". If you can't find a real crisis to leverage(911, Desert Storm, War in Iraq/Afgan), invent one. When did we declare "Mission Accomplished" on the War on Drugs??? Oh yeah, that's right...How many times has Cheney/Bush invoked 911 in order to justify the War in Iraq?
Retired - Unless we've been introduced formally, don't presume you know a wee bit about anything. I've worked the majority of my life in classified environments. There are probably many reasons why we haven't caught the bad guys yet but it isn't because the NYT publishes these operations, its because the terrorists are smarter than most give them credit for. They know where and when the orbits of satellites are, how to get around electronic monitoring, and financial transaction tracking. They've been doing it for decades.
Have you ever thought that maybe this is another "spin the media" from the govt? These programs have been in existence for years and no leaks about them until AFTER the second election? Seems if someone had a beef with this and wanted to leak it, it would have happened long before this. We can't find these guys using these programs, so it gets leaked to the press in hopes that the bad guys will learn about it and change their methods so they do become visable to us? Maybe I've missed it but other than some "off-the-record" statements and the usual election year chest thumping from some "elect GWB for Pope" US Congressmen, have you notice that while Bush/Cheney both denounced the article, neither stated that the need for an investigation into how it got leaked...hmmm...
Posted by: matt a at June 27, 2006 07:34 AM (IHMpz)
12
Matt,
Trying to follow you. If there is a crisis and war is declared, that means you are battling the crisis. We will continue to battle drugs and addictions forever.
The President doesn't have the right to put us in danger, he has the responsibility to try to keep us safe. He is attempting to do that with the (Actual) War in Iraq.
If you worked in Classified information, (I have) you should know that leaking it has consequences. Usually bad ones. It was wrong to leak it, it was wrong to print it. Freedom of the press carries responsibilities to the public. This tool is no longer valuable to combat terrorist activities. There have been too many leaks during this war on terror. This is just the latest one and main stream america is getting upset (finally). They may think things are being watched, now they have confirmation and can switch tactics. Simple question, why should we let the likes of the Liberal News broadcast all the ways we are trying to track terrorists? It helps only the terrorists and hurts our efforts.
Posted by: Retired Navy at June 27, 2006 08:42 AM (elhVA)
13
Navy - The key word is "if". Declaring a crisis and there actually being one are two different things. Having our politicians grandstanding every 2 years about some "threat" to our nation is what main stream american is finally getting tired of. I forgot War on illegal immigration in my last post. Boy that went somewhere...
Actually, we all have a responsibility to keep US safe. I contend the president isn't interested in keeping us safe, otherwise we would have found Bin Laden by now and dismantled Al-queda. He needs a bad guy to make everyone afraid and keep the current "crisis" alive. What? Can't get social security reform passed when you control all of congress...uh...Duck, Zarcowi sighting! For all the moaning and groaning they do about the media's attention to the car bombings in Iraq, the adminstration doesn't want them actually showing any progress or the calls to bring the troops home would be that much louder. How do you think the nightly car bomb footage shows up on your TV? The military escorts them to and from every attack because it too dangerous for news crews to go out by themselves...
Yes, having worked in a classified env, I know the penalties for unauthorized disclosure. However, those penalties apply to the individual(s) that disclosed the information, not NYT. As soon as it became "public" knowledge (i.e. to those not cleared to know it), the Karl Rove defense becomes available (I disclosed classified info but wasn't the first one to spill the beans). But with this administration, depending on the govt for defining what is classified and what is not is a joke. Things that have been de-classified for years are now re-classified (US archives) and of course, any time he likes, the president can decide to disclose under-cover identities when ever he likes (which ought to make all of our under covers feel warm and fuzzy unless your spouse says something to annoy the pres).
I contend that these tools weren't that valuable to begine with (these tools have been available for years and even pre-911, FBI/CIA could go to FISA and get anything they wanted) and it was intentionally leaked to the press. From the spin group put together to rationalize the Iraq war (WHIG) to the whole Plume affair, we know that this administration has no problem leaking information to the press and then spinning it to their advantage. Frankly, I'm wondering if the NYT editors aren't feeling a bit stupid in realizing they got played. The administration has got them in a catch-22, if NYT responses by naming the leakers to show this was an orchestrated leak, they in effect blow their creditability forever with future leaks. If they don't expose the leakers, they in effect give the administration the platform to rally against the "liberal/communist/terror-loving/red-hating" media...
Posted by: matt a at June 27, 2006 10:17 AM (IHMpz)
14
Matt,
I just reviewed the Non-disclosure agreement and applicable U.S. Codes.
The one that gave up the information origionally is at fault but the Times was in violation of Title 18 United States Code Sections 793, 794, and 798 at least. They obtained the information and was told it was classified and not to print it, they did anyway and that constitutes a violation of National Security.
Plame wasn't OUTCONUS and wasn't for over 5 years, she doesn't fall into the statute anyway.
As far as a crisis is concerned, "IF" is a judgement call. I see a problem with all those things you mentioned and more. If the govt wants to call a war against them and it helps every day citizens combat the problems that plague our society, I'm all for it. The problem isn't in what it's called, the problem is when people don't recognize there is a problem.
Any advantage that gives us any edge over someone trying to do us harm is valuable. Each system was helping us to gather information on terror cells around the world and actually stopped some. They have also been using them for years (even under Clinton). The problem is with the Bush-haters that are trying to poke holes in the dam. The idiots don't realize they are on the wrong side of the dam and there is a lot of water coming.
As far as spin goes, well, thats politics and it's spun everywhere. I prefer to use the cautious method. I believe in keeping America safe first, Allies second, then the rest of the world.
There are bad guys out there no matter how you slice it, Trying to lump the President in with them is idiotic.
Posted by: Retired Navy at June 27, 2006 11:36 AM (elhVA)
15
Navy,
You're assuming NYT signed a non-disclosure form and signed THAT particular non-disclosure form (I've signed dozens at different times never the same one twice). Even if all of that, the Rove defense still can come into play (we didn't "KNOW" it was classified). But even if all that is true, great! Where is the Bush/Cheney/WH team public outcry to prosecute NYT???? They are the executive branch. They execute the laws.
As far as Plame goes, it was the President's decision to declassify her, so by default everyone involved saw her as still "classified. even so, if it was that cut and dry, there wouldn't have been as much "cloak and dagger" BS with Rove, Cheney, and his chief of staff playing the press off each other. If she wasn't "leaked" why wouldn't the president or VP come out and say, she wasn't classified anymore. End of story.
Crisis - I see problems with alot of things in the US that declaring war on won't solve. The stop light by my house stays left green way longer in one direction than the other side, but I don't declare war on stop lights. The govt did not declare war on terror but on those responsible for 911 and for Iraq. War on terror is a political slogan used as a rationale for an agenda. Like War on Marriage.
I haven't seen any evidence that any of these programs stopped anything. Of course, if they have been going on for decades, then their record isn't very good considering the number of attacks that succeeded (embassy bombing, USS Cole, the 1st WTC attack, 911, London subway attack, Spainish trains, etc). Would the govt admit that they hadn't or simply classify the results?
I didn't lump the president in with the bad guys. Bad guys want to do us harm, blow things up and generally cause bad things to happen. I never said GWB wanted to do any of those things. Its just not in GWB's best interest to catch the bad guys. What would have happened if Osama was caught 2 weeks after 911? To Kerry's point, why did we pull back from capturing Osama and rely on local warlords to do it? Would we still have gone to war with Iraq if Osama had been captured? What if 911 never happened? Do you think Bush with his failed SS reform, Medicare fiasco, illegal immigration, Hariet Myers, sky rocketing deficits, soaring gas prices, record ear-marks, etc gets re-elected? 2004 election was all about National security because Osama was still out there. If he wasn't, Bush would have joined his Daddy as a one-hit wonder...
Posted by: matt a at June 27, 2006 02:39 PM (IHMpz)
16
"If I had to choose between government without newspapers, and newspapers without government, I wouldn't hesitate to choose the latter."
Thomas Jefferson
"The man who reads nothing at all is better educated than the man who reads nothing but newspapers."
Thomas Jefferson
Posted by: TJ at June 27, 2006 08:06 PM (WSrIx)
17
Matt,
Title 18 doesn't have to be signed, just aware of classified information, you can be in violation of it, they are.
Again, Plame wasn't out of the country, wasn't for over 5 years and didn't fall under the statute.
I never said YOU lumped the President in with the bad guys, but a lot on the Left do.
They found cells in Saudia Arabia, Afganistan, England, France, U.S. all using the tactics mentioned. I agree that during the Clinton years (When he slashed, slashed, slashed the national defense budget) things went bad, I see Bush as trying to change that track record. At least he's doing something. I don't agree with everything like you are alluding to, I don't agree with Harriet Miers, illegal immigration and agree something should be done with Medicare. I think his SS plan would have worked well if the Democrats didn't set up to block it. (TSP is a great investment), He has nothing to do with gas prices, that's supply and demand and private organizations (gas companies).
Posted by: Retired Navy at June 28, 2006 05:20 AM (JSetw)
Hide Comments
| Add Comment
Another Blind Keller
New York Times editor Bill Keller has offered up a vapid dodge for his once great newspaper's repeated disclosures of anti-terror programs, blaming the messengers for how poorly his message was received:
I don't always have time to answer my mail as fully as etiquette demands, but our story about the government's surveillance of international banking records has generated some questions and concerns that I take very seriously. As the editor responsible for the difficult decision to publish that story, I'd like to offer a personal response.
Some of the incoming mail quotes the angry words of conservative bloggers and TV or radio pundits who say that drawing attention to the government's anti-terror measures is unpatriotic and dangerous. (I could ask, if that's the case, why they are drawing so much attention to the story themselves by yelling about it on the airwaves and the Internet.) Some comes from readers who have considered the story in question and wonder whether publishing such material is wise. And some comes from readers who are grateful for the information and think it is valuable to have a public debate about the lengths to which our government has gone in combatting [sic] the threat of terror.
You will note there is no link to Keller's excuse. My tiny contribution to their readership (and hence advertising revenue) is infinitesimal, but even that was too much. I will not link the
NY Times again.
In any event, the Keller obfuscation satisfied very few people, including President Bush who lambasted the Times
just a few moments ago:
"For people to leak that program and for a newspaper to publish it does great harm to the United States of America," Bush said. He said the disclosure of the program "makes it harder to win this war on terror."
[snip]
"Congress was briefed, and what we did was fully authorized under the law," Bush said, talking with reporters in the Roosevelt Room after meeting with groups that support U.S. troops in Iraq.
"We're at war with a bunch of people who want to hurt the United States of America," the president said. "What we were doing was the right thing."
Bill Keller is blind to this fact. "Right" doesn't matter, and it often seems, "right" is the enemy. Getting the President—hurting Bush, bringing down this Administration—seems to be the primary focus of the
New York Times under Bill Keller's leadership.
The offending
Times article publicized and hence destroyed an effective and legal way of tracking and disrupting those who finance Islamic terrorism, solely so that it could stick a thumb in the eye of George Bush.
Bill Keller has visions of a Bush Administration hobbled, embarrassed, and ineffective. What his newspaper's disclosures do to tip off terrorists and enable their success at the possible cost of American lives doesn't apparent enter into this blind man's view.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
11:38 AM
| Comments (1)
| Add Comment
| Trackbacks (Suck)
1
Keller assumes that the First Amendment was written solely to empower him and the NYT. The underlying theme throughout our constitution is power not specifically delineated to one of the branches of the government is retained by the people. The First Amendment states, “Congress shall make no law… abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press…” The constraint is placed upon Congress in that they cannot make laws abridging the freedom of the people to publish. I don’t recall any transference of that right to the NYT and Mr. Keller. The last I knew, the NYT is not freely elected by the people so as to be a representative of the people. I believe the NYT is beholding to its owners – the stockholders who comprise only a very small segment of the people.
As evidenced by the consistent actions of Mr. Keller and the NYT, the liberal elite intelligentsia believe it is their mission to replace the GOP administration with a socialist minded administration more in line with their vision for America. The disclosure of classified material and programs is only a means by which to effect the desired outcome. Most troubling is the lack of a resolve upon the administration’s part to prosecute those that unnecessarily jeopardize our soldier’s lives and our lives at home. If we are going to prosecute this war, we must be willing to prosecute those who would willingly enable the enemy.
Posted by: Old Soldier at June 26, 2006 12:57 PM (X2tAw)
Hide Comments
| Add Comment
Crash
That crashing sound you hear is shatering of the liberal myth that Saddam Hussein's Iraq didn't have ties to the Taliban and al Qaeda. Of course it did, and the documented ties are getting stronger:
Newly declassified documents captured by U.S. forces indicate that Saddam Hussein's inner circle not only actively reached out to the Taliban rulers of Afghanistan and terror-based jihadists in the region, but also hosted discussions with a known Al Qaeda operative about creating jihad training "centers," possibly in Baghdad.
Hussein had been host to
Abu Abbas,
Abu Nidal, and
Abdul Rahman Yasin, and so adding more terrorists to the Baghdad social scene would make perfect sense.
If nothing else, Saddam was consistent in his ties with the "movers and shakers" of Islamic terrorism.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
06:43 AM
| Comments (37)
| Add Comment
| Trackbacks (Suck)
1
The horse has been dead for years, yet you still beat it. No serious observer can claim Saddam was cozy with quaeda, or even an imminent threat for that matter, and no reports of meetings with solitary actors tangentially related to al Qaeda will change that. Zarquawi's training camp was out of Saddam's sphere of influence, and Bush actually held off bombing it pre-2003 so as not to blow up a key piece of Saddam-linked-to-quaeda pretext (it's true, look it up!). Iraq was not a legitimate target in the GWOT, and makes the GWOT look like a ruse to justify military action taken for entirely different purposes. Then again, what Bush says must be true... leaders would never obfuscate their true intentions or propagandize with lies, right? We must analyze the GWOT by accepting everything bush says as truth. Then and only then will we really understand what's going on! Laughable.
Posted by: ME at June 26, 2006 12:31 PM (veqnU)
2
You are an uneducated dolt, desperately grasping at non-extant straws to save your already dead hide.
Wake up and smell the rigor mortis.
Posted by: WhoCares at June 26, 2006 12:36 PM (Wo8Wk)
3
ah yes the magic "documents" that were so valuable to us intelligence that they gave them to fox to review!!!!!
Posted by: madmatt at June 26, 2006 12:39 PM (J8hqn)
4
I can tell by the disjointed thoughts of the previous posts that Peter Daou's readers has arrived once again to trumpet what they "know" instead of taking the extraordinary step of reading the referenced material. The "Cliff's Notes" mentality really shines through with the comments that have come through so far. Not a single fact rebutted, not so much as a single bit of analysis intelligently argued against.
Instead, we get cut and paste generic arguments (no specifics, of course, because details can be challenged)) that haven’t been updated since the war started, and the requisite name calling that shows the true spirit of the “superior” liberal mindset.
How about a change of pace, gentlemen and gentlewomen? Why not try discussing the actual evidence presented in this post?
You could argue that the high level meetings between members of Saddam’s government and members of the Taliban leadership for “diplomatic and intelligence based cooperation” were done by freelancers, and did not constitute official or even back-channel communications between two known state sponsors of terrorism.
You could presumably argue that Gulbuddin Hekmatyar didn’t really have the authorization to speak for the Taliban when he asked Saddam’s government specifically for a “center” in Baghdad or Tajikistan, and you could argue (without any support,.mind you) that this al Qaeda associate was talking about a center of a different sort—a Planned Parenthood center in Sadr City, perhaps?
You could even argue that Fazlr Rahman Khalil’s visit to Iraq as a known Taliban/al Qaeda associate who signed bin Laden’s 1998 fatwa against the United States was unsanctioned, or try to present evidence it didn’thappen because Khalil was somewhere else.
ANY of these approaches would be welcome, because they question facts and analysis of those facts.
Do you think that arguing the facts is possible, or is name-calling and unsupported platitudes based upon what you “know” the best you have to offer?
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at June 26, 2006 01:28 PM (g5Nba)
5
get over it. we have lost 2500 soldiers, spent 300 billion dollars, and killed 50,000 innocent iraqis all in order to overthrow a third rate dictator that posed absolutely no threat to us. AND YOU STILL THINK IT WAS A GOOD IDEA. wanna buy a bridge? do you belong to any cults besides the bush cult?
Posted by: j. at June 26, 2006 02:20 PM (yu9pS)
6
There's no point in "arguing the facts" unless and until we can be sure they ARE facts. If the Administration had any real confidence in this information, they would have to be utterly insane or politically suicidal not to have officially publicized it long ago. They do not seem to be either; I conclude that they don't have confidence in this information.
However, they may be cynical enough (because they are pols, not because they are this particular Administration) to milk it all the same by giving those who are willing to believe the chance to latch on it and publicize it on their own. Think about it.
Posted by: gbbalto at June 26, 2006 02:46 PM (/KYC8)
7
I'll cut to the chase: even IF these documents bear a passing resemblance to reality, and even IF the worst of the implications were accurate - there is still FAR LESS connecting Iraq to the Taliban and Al Qaeda than there is Saudia Arabia, Jordan, Egypt, and others.
'Reaching out' to Al Qaeda and the Taliban, to hold meetings about possibly maybe one day working together in the future, simply does not equal the donations of millions in support, resources, passports, money laundering, and other services provided by OTHER Middle Eastern governments to Al Qaeda. Things which have been done by powerful men in nations such as Saudi Arabia, Jordan, Egypt, Pakistan and others. And things which are documented, *undisputed* fact.
I remind you that NOT ONE of the hijackers was Iraqi, and that 3/4's of them were from Saudia Arabia. UBL himself is Saudi, and worked with the Taliban. Zarqawi was Jordanian.
And yet we invaded a country with a safely contained emasculated dictator, and *brought* Al Qaeda there, increasing their recruiting in the process.
This is not a success.
Posted by: jim at June 26, 2006 03:09 PM (pjusE)
8
Here we go again....Everytime the cheney administration is caught destroying another constitutional item, a new "document" (or something) purporting to prove the administrations claims surfaces. Are you folks really that blind to the manipulation of your thoughts and feelings? I mean, come on. Please use your own brain for a change. It just might surprise you to know that all the folks you are supporting don't give a damn about you, your family, your country, or your future. They don't care about you at all. I know alot of you have invested so much emotion and time in these peop-le, but please stop. I have tried many times to understand why (and how) people would want to be so lied to, and the only reason I can think of is that you are so frightened. I really thought the "right wing" was a strong and confident bunch of Americans. I am now admitting that I was wrong. Those folks are scared out of their minds. What are you afraid of? If it is osama been forgotten, you are mistaken. Even the cheny administration doesn't think about him at all. Why should you? What are we getting for our $300 million dolars a day? And lastly please answer one simple question for me: what civil right would you folks NOT allow to be taken away? Their looking at our medical records, phone and internet, bank and credit, library records, spying on the Quakers, etc...Please answer. What would it take for you folks to finally say "enough". Please remind me again why being a patsy to the administration is patriotic?
Posted by: Tom at June 26, 2006 03:34 PM (2/n6+)
9
Jim said, "not one of the hijackers were Iraqi"
Brilliant Jim, and not one of the pilots dropping bombs on pearl harbor were German. Tripartite pact anyone? The enemy of my enemy is my friend anyone? Come on now libs, it is much better to admit you are wrong than to show yourselves completely ignorant of history...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tripartite_Pact
Posted by: Ray Robison at June 26, 2006 04:51 PM (CdK5b)
10
The BIG LIE has been the lefts' strategy from the beginning of Bushes first administration. Remember that the recession started under Bush? And the economy is poor? Then we have ALLLLLL the GWOT and Iraq War lies. No WMD! No relationship with Iraq and al Qaeda! We're losing in Iraq! We have caused al Qaeda to expand. We brought al Qaeda to Iraq! And, may I add the often unsaid, but "known" fact, it is allllll our fault.
But, facts do seem to get into the way. These documents are slowly uncovering the lies. WMD found! More and more opeational contacts uncovered between the two parties that never "operational" relationships! Fewer and ever fewer strctly US only ops and increasing Iraqi only ops in the Iraqi war on terror. We can't be losing because that was the goal from early on! I think if we could poll/count heads of al Qaeda we would find that their leadership has been dramatically reduced. Ask ole al Zar!
The Big Lie that drives me up the wall is "The Iraqi want us to out! Usually with the implication NOW! But when we ask the Iraqis the same question with NOW! appended the answer is NO!!!!!!
Silly season is starting. The Dems have manuevered so that they can take credit for the inevitable redeployment/withdrawal. The rabid red eyed beasts that they consider their base will actually believe the tranparent strategy. Just as they have converted the "Big Lies" to their belief structure. As someone once told me: It is very hard to change someone's beliefs. Slowly my beasties you will see the light. Slowly!
Posted by: CoRev at June 26, 2006 04:55 PM (Hr52v)
11
Hurray Hurray Hurray!!!!
The Right Was Right!!!!
Saddam was an Evil Evildoer of Evil Evil for Evil EvilDoers of Evil Evil.
Now let's have that victory parade for the Dear Leader and come home before anyone else gets hurt. OK, Righties?
Posted by: george at June 26, 2006 08:46 PM (HDBFT)
12
Hussein was also host to Rumsfeld when the U.S. was providing Hussein with weapons and money to support Iraq's war with Iran.
Watch the video from the NSA archives:
http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB82/
Stop beating a dead horse. You have no credibility.
Posted by: Devil's Advocate at June 27, 2006 06:03 AM (Zd60f)
13
Saddam Hussein is on trial for murder. Rumsfeld can travel as he pleases. It must suck to be a loser.
Posted by: Tom TB at June 27, 2006 07:16 AM (Ffvoi)
14
Wow, who let the loonies out? Hey boys and girls, you are absolutely clueless. The Bush lied and there are no WMD's mantra. You folks need to get over it. Here are the facts. 1) Saddam funneled money to Palistinian Terrorist. 2) Saddam played host to a number of world terrorist. 3) Saddam sent hitmen to kill George H. W. Bush. 4)Saddam stalled lied and manipulated the World Body for years. 5) Saddam continued to shoot at coalition aircraft patrolling the no fly zones after Gulf War One. Now when they find munitions with sarin and mustard gas the first thing out of the loonies pie holes are. "well its old, nothing to worry about". Did you guy's forget about Syria? Bashir and Saddam had ties to each other. Syria is hosting a bunch of Saddam bathist party members. He had ample time to move his chemical and nuclear programs to Syria. And furthermore why should the Gov't come out and say they found weapons. It doesn't make any difference to you folks it will be spun into a lie and a conspiracy. You guys keep touting the 300million a day. Does any of you know that it takes appoximately 200million a day just in salary and benefits that our troops recieve. Thats even if there at home. They still get paid and they still cost the gov't money. Personnaly I would rather spend the money on them than some B.S. welfare program for people that don't even appreciate what they have nor would get off of their lazy A$$ and get a job.
Posted by: Faithful Patriot at June 27, 2006 07:24 AM (lNB+R)
15
Conservative management of government has now officially been proven to be a disaster, for everyone but the elites that is.
Grasping at straws with which to drink the kool-aid is pathetic.
I trust you are not a billionaire. If I am correct you had better wake up and start holding the Bush Crime Family accountable. Shrub has no intention of EVER leaving Iraq. Don't bother talking troop levels and withdrawals. Remember the PNAC, and the fourteen PERMENANT bases we're building there. Everything the Crime Family says and does is smoke and mirrors. They plan to keep us all distracted for another three-and-a-half years, and steal '06 and '08 like they did 2000 and '04, so they can keep troops there forever.
He plans to give Iraq's oil to Exxon-Mobil, cell phone monopoly to Verizon, etc. He thinks that will be his legacy and make up for all the dead.
Posted by: tommo at June 27, 2006 09:54 AM (kmaBF)
16
Hey, Ray. Brilliant. Except that the connection between Germany and Japan was already fact, on the basis of signed treaties.
To make a more accurate comparison using WWII examples, invading Iraq because of 9/11 would be like invading Easter Island because of Pearl Harbor. That is, if you are really interested in defeating the enemy who attacked you, both invasions are *pointless distractions*.
I bet you could even find some Japanese soldiers stayed at Easter Island at one point. It's in the same region of the world, the Pacific. There's just one problem - it isn't where the enemy was stationed when you attacked.
The rest of your response skips all my other points, because each of them destroy this article's argument.
Posted by: jim at June 27, 2006 09:58 AM (tLCEb)
17
Jim said "Hey, Ray. Brilliant. Except that the connection between Germany and Japan was already fact, on the basis of signed treaties."
And that is exactly what this document proves, a treaty for diplomatic, intelligence, and security cooperation. Did you read it? I mean, you can take a horse to water but you can't make him drink. If you chose not to read it, then how about not wasting everbody's time with un/misinformed commentary that shows no capacity for research or critical thinking. I mean you could just go on over to the MTV blog and say "bush lied" or "vote or die" and that would be just as effective as trying to argue that this document does not show collaboration.
Stop embarassing yourself, the grown ups are trying to speak now.
Posted by: Ray Robison at June 27, 2006 10:09 AM (CdK5b)
18
Pssst! I have some documents that show Saddam tried to buy uranium from some place in Africa! They came from the notebook of some guy names...ummm...Muhammad. Thats it. Muhammad. And they were translated by a guy named...errr...Ali! So obviously they are real.
Snark aside the US had better diplomatic relations with the Taliban then Saddam. We were paying them off to not grow opium. I wonder how much H an enterprising PFC can hide in the hold of a C-130?
Posted by: John Gillnitz at June 27, 2006 10:56 AM (eHLUP)
19
I wonder how much H an enterprising PFC can hide in the hold of a C-130?
About half as a Kennedy can hide booze in a rum runner, or twice as much as William JEfferson can hide in his freezer. Why do you ask?
Posted by: anon at June 27, 2006 11:06 AM (g5Nba)
20
Man, those Kennedy and Clinton jokes just never get stale!
No wonder pseudoconservatives are losing the comedy war.
Posted by: shingles at June 27, 2006 11:34 AM (hMENh)
21
Dumbass: "I can tell by the disjointed thoughts of the previous posts that Peter Daou's readers has arrived once again to trumpet what they "know" instead of taking the extraordinary step of reading the referenced material. "
CNN Article: Old news. Thanks anyway. Doesn't prove jack.
Navy Article: Abu Nidal: Location/Area of Operation
Al-Banna relocated to Iraq in December 1998, where the group maintained a presence until Operation Iraqi Freedom, but its current status in country is unknown. Known members have an operational presence in Lebanon, including in several Palestinian refugee camps. Authorities shut down the ANO’s operations in Libya and Egypt in 1999. The group has demonstrated the ability to operate over a wide area, including the Middle East, Asia, and Europe. However, financial problems and internal disorganization have greatly reduced the group’s activities and its ability to maintain cohesive terrorist capability.
External Aid
The ANO received considerable support, including safe haven, training, logistical assistance, and financial aid from Iraq, Libya, and Syria (until 1987), in addition to close support for selected operations.
Yeah, we've known about them forever too. But there's one important caveat to using them as EX POST FACTO rationale for those whose Kool Aid wasn't strong enough. I'll tell ya at the end of my post.
USA Today in 2003 on Yasin:
"The Bush administration is using the evidence to strengthen its disputed prewar assertion that Iraq had ties to terrorists, including the al-Qaeda group responsible for the Sept. 11 attack. But President Bush, in contrast with comments Sunday by Vice President Cheney, said Wednesday, "We've had no evidence that Saddam Hussein was involved."
Now, what's that about Al FRIGGIN' QAEDA? WHAT? OHHHHHHH...
N O T H I N G ! ! !
CY, exactly what are you trying to accomplish with your links from 2003? Pretend you don't love the hits that Daou generates. If only you didn't have to lie to get them...
Posted by: KC at June 27, 2006 11:49 AM (Efww0)
22
The Iraqi insurgents are not terrorists.
The War On Terror is a fake.
Remember, we are killing the Iraqis to set them free, free of their bodies, that is.
So our multi-national corporations can take over their economy and we can build permanent bases there.
Posted by: tommo at June 27, 2006 12:05 PM (kmaBF)
23
"About half as a Kennedy can hide booze in a rum runner, or twice as much as William JEfferson can hide in his freezer. Why do you ask?"
Yeah, liberal. Take that!
It's also about 1/4 of the number of oxycontin/viagra/vicodin/etc. that Rush can cram between his man-tits.
Oh, and it looks like he's not done yet.
Busted AGAIN!!!
Incidentally, look where he was with his viagra:
From a 2001 Wired.com article:
the Dominican Republic is one of the biggest sex tourism destinations in the world, thanks in part to Internet sites that extol the country as a "single man's paradise."
...
Among banner ads for Viagra, members can shuffle through pictures of dull-eyed prostitutes engaged in flagrante delicto with the members/amateur pornographers.
You neocons are such hypocrites, that it's just too easy.
Posted by: KC at June 27, 2006 12:25 PM (Efww0)
24
This is pathetic. You guys sound like little kids arguing on the playground. All of you.
You guys don't deserve to have policy debates.
Posted by: My dad has a bigger gun than your dad's gun at June 27, 2006 01:37 PM (J4anS)
25
Still holding on tight to that lie and trying to breath some more life into it eh?
Everything the conservatives have said would happen in Iraq has turned out to be wrong. Everything liberals said turned out to be right. The conservative movement is morally bankrupt. Even your theories on tax cuts equaling smaller government have been proven wrong by the Cato institute. You are a group of people who say one thing and do another, whose principles are determined by whatever wins elections. the conservative movement is a joke. For years you have railed on anti poverty programs that amounted to almost a billion dollars a year (heritage foundation) yet your pathetic incompetent government spent 1.5 billion on Public Relations in the same year.
And the conservative movement is full of cowards. Cowards who are willing to trumpet the military but not sign up, who are perfectly all right risking the lives of innocent iraqis in the "fight for freedom" as long as they do not have to risk a single thing themselves. Fight them over there not here? Thats the call of cowards afraid to risk their own for what counts. The recruitment age is now 42. Go put your blood where your mouth is. I am not afraid of Al Q and never have been. The conservative movement however is frightened of their own shadow. the elephant afraid of the mouse.
Posted by: Alexande at June 27, 2006 02:05 PM (n3clO)
26
Ray, what did you read?
This is what I read. Quoted directly from the article at the top:
"Newly declassified documents captured by U.S. forces indicate that Saddam Hussein's inner circle not only actively reached out to the Taliban rulers of Afghanistan and terror-based jihadists in the region, but also hosted discussions with a known Al Qaeda operative about creating jihad training "centers," possibly in Baghdad."
So, IF these documents are correct, some people who worked for Saddam invited some guy who worked for Al Qaeda to talk about possibly having training centers in Iraq at some time in the future.
- How is that a signed treaty?
- How does that even prove a treaty ever existed?
- How is that even an operational connection of any sort?
- How does that show that Saddam and Al Qaeda every actually did anything?
Answer: it does not, in any way, show that any of these things actually existed.
You might as well say that Rumsfeld and Saddam worked together to gas the Kurds, because they met twice. That would be just as ridiculous.
Ray, please look at the quote, and look at what you made it mean.
The difference between the two, is the difference between what is, and what you want to believe.
Posted by: jim x at June 27, 2006 04:05 PM (pjusE)
27
"This is pathetic. You guys sound like little kids arguing on the playground. All of you.
You guys don't deserve to have policy debates."
You want policy debate? You came to the wrong place, buddy...er...Dad.
Posted by: KC at June 27, 2006 04:46 PM (Efww0)
28
You might as well say that Rumsfeld and Saddam worked together to gas the Kurds, because they met twice. That would be just as ridiculous.
Right. It wouldn't be riduculous, however to say that Rumsfeld and Saddam worked together to gas the Iranians.
Posted by: KC at June 27, 2006 04:49 PM (Efww0)
29
Uh huh, right. So where is the evidence for any kind of active collaboration between Saddam and al Qaeda? After all, if merely hosting a representative make you part of their team, then Saddam was on Rumsfield's team. Yes, Saddam seems to have been trying to stay on good terms with al Qaeda: "Yeah, guys, we'll have to do something together sometime soon. I'll call you. Buh-bye." Then again, that's probably good diplomacy in dealing with fanatics who are prone to send in stooges with explosive vests if they decide that you are a Bad Muslim.
Posted by: trrll at June 27, 2006 05:43 PM (zGwRo)
30
KC - sure. That was probably exactly what they meant to discuss. That's why the US was Saddam's ally for most of the 80's and up to the first Gulf War - he was the enemy of our enemy Iran.
We sold him tons of weapons, propped him up financially. And when I say 'we', I of course mean the Reagan-Bush administrations. With many of the same players, including Rumsfeld and Cheney.
This inconvenient history somehow gets lost by conservatives in the Iraq debate. I wonder why?
Posted by: jim x at June 27, 2006 07:48 PM (pjusE)
31
jim x said "Ray, please look at the quote, and look at what you made it mean.
The difference between the two, is the difference between what is, and what you want to believe."
is now a good time to tell you I may know what the quote means better then you do? I mean, I am the author after all....
the very fact that you did not know I am the author is a good indication you really have no idea what you are talking about...
now put your head on your desk and play the quiet game.....lol
BUT ANYWAY
-How is that a signed treaty?
- How does that even prove a treaty ever existed?
- How is that even an operational connection of any sort?
- How does that show that Saddam and Al Qaeda every actually did anything?
It is a verbal treaty as evidenced by the fact that both the father of the taliban and the IIS director agreed to cooperation on dimplomatic, security, and intelligence fronts.
The bosses agreed to it, that makes it a fact.
Again, they both said they would work together on diplomatic, intelligence, and security matters. How is that not operational?
How does that prove they really did anything? I am sure that both parties had something better to do than to sit around and make agreements for no particular reason. I mean, we have three terrorist leaders meeting with the highest ranking people in the Saddam regime. Doesn't that tell you something?
Of course, you couldn't figure out who you were talking to anyway. Guess drawing those dots isn't a particular talent of yours, LOL
Posted by: Ray Robison at June 28, 2006 02:03 PM (CdK5b)
32
is now a good time to tell you I may know what the quote means better then you do? I mean, I am the author after all....
You are not the author of the quote, are you?
The evidence you don't know what it means, is proven below.
It is a verbal treaty as evidenced by the fact that both the father of the taliban and the IIS director agreed to cooperation on dimplomatic, security, and intelligence fronts.
The quote doesn't say that. AT ALL.
The quote says they would have a meeting to discuss it. Period.
You really do need to go back and read it again. You being the author of the article, makes this misinterpretation into what you want to believe, even worse.
The bosses agreed to it, that makes it a fact.
Got a signed document? No.
Got a taped agreement? No.
Got a credible witness? No.
Got any evidence after this that they worked together? No.
If you have no evidence, then it is not a fact. Period.
Again, they both said they would work together on diplomatic, intelligence, and security matters. How is that not operational?
That is not what they said. Do I have to quote the quote for you again? The quote, if true and accurate, only says they discussed meeting to discuss it.
If someone schedules an interview to hire me, does that mean I got the job? I can tell you, no. So. What leads you to be so certain a discussion DEFINITELY means an agreement, with no other evidence?
Of course, you couldn't figure out who you were talking to anyway.
No. I assumed the writer of an article would have a clearer understanding of a quote that he was building his case on. My bad.
Guess drawing those dots isn't a particular talent of yours, LOL
No, I don't draw dots and then connect them. I at least try to find dots that are already there. In other words, I try to make decisions about the world depend on evidence. When they aren't clear, and what is clear is that there is no pressing danger, I don't send in soldiers to die.
Nor do I draw dots afterwards, in a desperate push to prove a bad idea was a good one.
Posted by: jim x at June 28, 2006 04:53 PM (pjusE)
33
jim x said "You are not the author of the quote, are you?"
I will try to make this as simple as I can.
Yes, I am. Look at the name on this comment.
"Ray Robison"
Look at the name of the author of the fox news article that this post is about.
"Ray Robison"
For the reasoning impaired:
I am the author of the quote, I wrote the article, I am the author of the Saddam Dossier,
I did the original research,
I read every word of the translations
Maulana Falzur Rahman and the vice president of Iraq both said "we will enter into a secret intelligence relationship."
doesn't get much clearer than that.
if you choose not to understand that, well you can take a horse to water....
Posted by: ray robison at June 28, 2006 06:39 PM (4joLu)
34
a little help then?
the VP of Iraq "For the future we think that we will arrange relations between us, as an intelligence service, and them in a secret way to establish the strong base of this relation."
Fazlur Rahman: "Concerning the relations between the Taliban and Iraq I was informed that they are going to start those relations in a secret manner and they are waiting for the answer and I will inform them that you will answer them through the embassy"
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,200820,00.html
Posted by: ray robison at June 28, 2006 06:51 PM (4joLu)
35
Well then, thank you for clarifying that, and for for finally providing some sourcing.
Now, quoting from Fox's own analysis of this information, at the bottom of that URL which you provided:
Due to the information provided in this notebook, we see a possible secret, intelligence based, operational relationship between the Taliban and the Saddam regime
Emphasis mine. Intelligence-based, with the Taliban. Which, while being a vile government, was not itself in any way an international terror organization. The US itself maintained relations with the Taliban up until just after 9/11.
...We also have an annotation that indicates Pakistani Fazlur Rahman Khalil, a known bin Laden associate, Al Qaeda terrorist and a 1998 fatwa co-signatory, also was traveling to Iraq in 1999.
This annotation is about meeting with a member of Al Qaeda. The note, and the analysis, says nothing further about any operational connection of any sort between Saddam's government and Al Qaeda.
So, "for the reasoning impaired":
- The Iraq agreements you mention were proposed with the Taliban.
- The Taliban does not equal Al Qaeda.
Right? Is that simple and direct enough?
The Taliban was/is a government, or at least a group of warlords, in a specific geographical area. NOT an international terror group, and most specifically not Al Qaeda, which was run by the Saudi UBL and was almost entirely Saudi funded.
- In the info you cite, there is STILL no operational connection between Iraq and Al Qaeda.
Got some other actual connections to cite, that don't offer this false conflation of the Taliban with Al Qaeda?
Posted by: jim x at June 29, 2006 01:43 PM (pjusE)
36
jim x said "Well then, thank you for clarifying that, and for for finally providing some sourcing."
jim, this post which Bob has created on his web site is about the source article, the one quoted here, the quote that you argued with me about. you may have realized if you went to the link "getting stronger". Trying to say I had not sourced my statement is completely stupid. Cease and desist from embarrassing yourself any further as I dont think my sides can take the laughter any more. Really, my sides literally hurt from somebody explaining to the author of a quote what the quote really meant. But at least you have been wonderful fodder for the visitors on my website whom I have linked over to this article so that they may have a good laugh as well. thank you for that.
"Emphasis mine. Intelligence-based, with the Taliban. Which, while being a vile government, was not itself in any way an international terror organization. The US itself maintained relations with the Taliban up until just after 9/11."
rrrriiiiiggggghhhhhtttttttt, I guess that is why we went into afghanistan to destroy the taliban. You do realize we fought a war in afghanistan with the taliban, don't you?
"the US maintained a relationship with the taliban" FYI, threatening to kick some ones ass for several years is not a "relationship". Clinton was shooting missiles at them for crying out loud. Shooting missiles at someone does not mean you have a relationship. our dealings with the taliban was to make them kick out bin laden so we could get him. Christ, the guy even says so in the translation that they are at war with the US, how do you get we had a relationship with them up until 9/11? this was 1999 for crying out loud! they would not. therfore, they were harboring bin laden. therefor they were working with al-qaeda. it's all very technical you see.
"This annotation is about meeting with a member of Al Qaeda. The note, and the analysis, says nothing further about any operational connection of any sort between Saddam's government and Al Qaeda."
read part 3 where khalil (the al qaeda terrorist and signatory of the 1998 bin laden fatwa against the US) meets with the IIS director and pledges the support of 120 million people to Saddam. that kind of sounds like Saddam and a major al-qaeda terrorist leader working together, doesn't it?
" The Iraq agreements you mention were proposed with the Taliban.
- The Taliban does not equal Al Qaeda"
jim, the taliban was not the same thing as al-qaeda, nobody said it was, it only hosted, protected, recruited for, provided operation support for 9/11 and fought a war against the US to protect al qaeda. that means that anybody supporting the taliban, was also supporting al-qaeda. and if that is not enough, there are 2 al-qaeda leaders meeting with and making agreements with the IIS.
"The Taliban was/is a government, or at least a group of warlords, in a specific geographical area. NOT an international terror group, and most specifically not Al Qaeda, which was run by the Saudi UBL and was almost entirely Saudi funded."
oh good lord what is wrong with you? if your neighbor has a guy living with him and that guy tells you neighbor he is going to steal your stuff and he needs a place to hide and your neighbor then provides him with the tools to break into your house and then hides him, isnt your neighbor just as guilty? did he not also steal from you? why is this so hard for you to understand. the taliban provided direct support to al qaeda in the form of training, funds, and safehaven so that al-qaeda could attack us on 9/11. To not accept this is to state that the war agianst the taliban was wrong. Are you willing to state that publicly? there is no way around this jim, either the taliban was helping al-qaeda or not. either we were right to destroy them in afghanistan or not. and if it was right, then they were our enemy and Saddam was supporting them.
"In the info you cite, there is STILL no operational connection between Iraq and Al Qaeda.
Got some other actual connections to cite, that don't offer this false conflation of the Taliban with Al Qaeda?"
yes, again in part three, Hekmatyar, also meet with saddam and asked for support with terror training camps. hematyar just recently identified himself as an al-qaeda member.
so know we have 2 al-qaeda leaders and a taliban leader (remember jim, we fought them in afghanistan and they supported al-qaeda in the 9/11 attacks) all meeting with saddam and making diplomatic, intelligence, and security agreements.
I cant explain it any simpler than that. your refusal to understand the obvious from this point on is your problem and anybody who reads this will now know you are just denying an inconvenient truth.
Posted by: Ray Robison at June 29, 2006 03:31 PM (CdK5b)
37
jim, this post which Bob has created on his web site is about the source article, the one quoted here, the quote that you argued with me about. you may have realized if you went to the link "getting stronger". Trying to say I had not sourced my statement is completely stupid.
Whatever. The information you based your argument on, was not on this page. It is not my responsibility to argue about anything except what is on this page. Once it's brought here, I'm happy to discuss it. But I am not going to go reading things not directly in this article, to argue against this article. Sorry if that inconveniences you.
I could now insult you back for not being clearer about this in the first place, and we can push this around all day. I won't.
"Intelligence-based, with the Taliban. Which, while being a vile government, was not itself in any way an international terror organization. The US itself maintained relations with the Taliban up until just after 9/11."
rrrriiiiiggggghhhhhtttttttt, I guess that is why we went into afghanistan to destroy the taliban.
Hey Mr. Reading Comprehension - note the date I mentioned. "Just after 9/11". I think you realize that we invaded Afghanistan *after* 9/11, right?
The US met with the Taliban many times between 1997 and 2001 -
http://www.alternet.org/story/12525/
"From 1997 to as late as August 2001, the U.S. government continued to negotiate with the Taliban, trying to find a stabilizing factor that would allow American oil ventures to proceed with this project without interference."
therfore, they were harboring bin laden. therefor they were working with al-qaeda. it's all very technical you see.
Uh-huh. So 3 degrees of separation means that Iraq helped Al Qaeda pay for and plot 9/11. Only 1 degree further and I'm sure Kevin Bacon was involved.
read part 3 where khalil (the al qaeda terrorist and signatory of the 1998 bin laden fatwa against the US) meets with the IIS director and pledges the support of 120 million people to Saddam. that kind of sounds like Saddam and a major al-qaeda terrorist leader working together, doesn't it?
No, it does not. Once again, Mr. Reading Comprehension, that sounds like them DISCUSSING it. Because that's what they're doing - talking.
Once again, if I go on a job interview, does that mean I definitely work for the company? No.
jim, the taliban was not the same thing as al-qaeda, nobody said it was.
OK then! So stop using indications of agreement between Saddam and the Taliban, as *certain eveidence* of agreements between Saddam and Al Qaeda.
it only hosted, protected, recruited for, provided operation support for 9/11 and fought a war against the US to protect al qaeda.
Saudi Arabia also hosted, protected, recruited for, provided operation support for 9/11, and additionally FUNDED Al Qaeda. Saudi Arbia only didn't go to war because they didn't have to - we didn't so much as put an ounce of pressure on them.
Ditto Jordan (Zarqawi's home), Syria (sponsors Hamas, among other groups), and Pakistan (where most think UBL is now).
that means that anybody supporting the taliban, was also supporting al-qaeda.
OK. But, Saudia Arabia supported the Taliban, AND Al Qaeda. And Bin Laden is a member of the Saudi royal family. And 3/4 of the hijackers were Saudi.
Therefore we invaded...Iraq.
and if that is not enough, there are 2 al-qaeda leaders meeting with and making agreements with the IIS.
They're not making agreements. They're at most DISCUSSING making agreements.
I'm not going to fight my way through your document. I'm taking you at your word with your translation - but you have to provide a higher level of proof than "they talked about possibly working together in the future".
if your neighbor has a guy living with him and that guy tells you neighbor he is going to steal your stuff and he needs a place to hide and your neighbor then provides him with the tools to break into your house and then hides him, isnt your neighbor just as guilty? did he not also steal from you?
I supported the invasion of Aghanistan. They harbored UBL - not Iraq. They are the harboring neighbor, in your metaphor.
So, let's say that after I take care of the neighbor who harbored the thief, I had a choice of two other neighbors to go after. One shared info with the neighbor who harbored the thief(Iraq). The other shared info, money, resources with the neighbor who harbored - and ALSO did this directly for the thief AND CONTINUED to do so for the thief's whole crew (Saudi Arabia), up to the present day.
By your own metaphor, which one should I go after?
To not accept this is to state that the war agianst the taliban was wrong. Are you willing to state that publicly?
Hello - I support the invasion of Afghanistan. We are talking about the justification for invading and occupying IRAQ.
And I repeat: Saudi Arabia provided more support for the Taliban, AND provided direct support for UBL and Al Qaeda, AND this is more heavily documented.
...they were our enemy and Saddam was supporting them.
And, once again I repeat: Saudi Arabia, as well as Jordan, Egypt, Pakistan, Iran and Dubai all supporting the Taliban MORE, and most also supported Al Qaeda DIRECTLY. And this trail is more established and documented, as well.
yes, again in part three, Hekmatyar, also meet with saddam and asked for support with terror training camps. hematyar just recently identified himself as an al-qaeda member.
...all meeting with saddam and making diplomatic, intelligence, and security agreements.
No, sigh, once again, discussing something does not prove agreement. Any more than going on a job interview means you got the job.
Let me sum up:
1. I support the invasion of Afghanistan. We are discussing if the invasion of Iraq was justified.
2. You are stating that:
a) Iraq agreed to share intelligence and some operations with the Taliban.
b) there was some meetings, which produced some discussion about possibly working together in the future, between members of Iraq's gov't and members of Al Qaeda
c) this justifies the invasion of Iraq
3. I am pointing out that:
a) Iraq working with the Taliban does not prove that Iraq helped Al Qaeda plan terrorist attacks
b) even if it did prove that, there are several other Middle Eastern nations which provided far more financial and political support for the Taliban, including Saudi Arabia foremost - and thus would be by this standardmore guilty
b) taken at their worst, Iraq's possible connections to Al Qaeda are dwarfed by Saudi Arabia, which DIRECTLY financed and supported UBL and Al Qaeda, and provided him with personnel, resources and cover - which according to the evidence Iraq did NOT.
OK?
And to just say it again - evidence of hypothetical discussion is NOT evidence of action.
I don't know how to be any clearer.
In this light, your final statement is as clear a case of projection as I expect to ever see:
your refusal to understand the obvious from this point on is your problem and anybody who reads this will now know you are just denying an inconvenient truth.
Posted by: jim x at June 29, 2006 05:30 PM (pjusE)
Hide Comments
| Add Comment
June 23, 2006
Killing Times
Hi Eric! Hi James!
Once again, I see you've taken it upon yourselves to disclose national security secrets (I refuse to link to the article, thus putting advertising dollars in your pockets), and your good buddy
Bill was more than happy to let it fly, even though the program you compromised:
- was legal
- had congressional oversight
- had built-in protections against abuse
- was effective at catching terrorists
Does that just about just about cover it? Maybe. Maybe not.
I tend to agree with
quite a few others who think you have gone far too far, once again.
At first, I caught myself nodding my head when
Patterico said:
I am biting down on my rage right now. I'll resist the temptation to say Ann Coulter was right about where Timothy McVeigh should have gone with his truck bomb. I'll say only this: it's becoming increasingly clear to me that the people at the New York Times are not just biased media folks whose antics can be laughed off. They are actually dangerous.
And they
are dangerous, but I think Patrick is wrong to even imply a truck bomb should be used against the
New York Times. Even when paraphrasing someone else as a dark form of humor, that is a horrible thought. Someone radicalized enough could get it into his head to try to build such a bomb, and were he successful in detonating it, many innocent people in nearby buildings could be killed or injured.
Besides, the editorial staff, hidden behind the impenetrable wall of
Times Select, would walk away untouched.
Nor do I advocate the much more precise use of small arms, in case some of you were thinking that route. There should be a chilling of the
New York Times staff to run stories such as these, but cooling staffers to room temperature isn't the way to do it. Monetary damage is all they seem to understand.
Can you file lawsuits as private citizens on behalf of national security against the
Times?Can their sources be indicted for exposing classified information, and how do we bring about pressure to bear on the government to pursue such charges?
I'd like to see the terrorist protectionist
NY Times broken as a business, and I'm open to suggestions.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
10:27 AM
| Comments (30)
| Add Comment
| Trackbacks (Suck)
1
CY, we make a thousand Jayson Blairs bloom! If we leak enough fake information to their reporters, even Al-Qaeda will cancel their subscription!
Posted by: Tom TB at June 23, 2006 11:28 AM (Ffvoi)
2
There is some talk about forming a class action suit against the NYT for endangering rerular Americans. What do you think?
Posted by: Specter at June 23, 2006 12:28 PM (ybfXM)
3
Specter
You should get everyone you know to file a class action suit against the NYT cos. I bet you and both of your friends could take them down. Their market cap this morning was 3.5Bn.
Are you going to also file a suit against Forbes, WSJ and Fox News? Or is it just the NYT you want to take down.
Also, is it OK to use trial lawyers when its the NYT on the other end? Or are trial lawyers only bad when Republicans are being sued?
Posted by: Lint at June 23, 2006 01:20 PM (ovkHy)
4
Lint, trial lawyers are a pain because of frivolous lawsuits against corporations that drive up the price of products that people actual need, such as medical services. In the case of the NYT, it is a victimless crime.
Posted by: ray robison at June 23, 2006 02:14 PM (4joLu)
5
Oh I see. But the New York Times Co (NYSE: NYT) is a publicly traded company. A lawsuit against the NYT company would drive up the price of a product that people want.
Posted by: Lint at June 23, 2006 02:55 PM (ovkHy)
6
Lint, you made a funny. A product that people actually want and would actually pay more money for.
Posted by: NLC at June 23, 2006 05:11 PM (2Vvcp)
7
Lint, I'm in your corner on this one; The NYT is invaluable when training new puppies... all those pages for one low price... it's a bargain. But then, you would expect competition from the Wash Post to drive the price down. Sometimes it's hard to figure out the puppy papers market.
Posted by: Old Soldier at June 23, 2006 05:36 PM (owAN1)
8
Why are you guys letting the Wall Street Journal off the hook? They had the story front page today also.
Posted by: Nate at June 23, 2006 06:55 PM (UlkGh)
9
Lint, whether or not suing the NYT is a good idea, I think most of us understand the frustration behind making the suggestion. The NYT is undermining the national security without justification. Also, the NYT is increasingly a product that people do not want. I am one of many who has cancelled his subscription due to that paper's insanely biased reporting and absurd editorial positions.
Nate, the WSJ should not be let off the hook, particularly since the WSJ reporting can be quite at odds with what is that paper's very good editorial pages.
A legitimate question is raised whether there is legal liability on the part of the NYT and any other paper for the kind of reporting the CY post concerns. I am a lawyer who has done First Amendment litigation, and I do not accept the NYT's position that what it has been doing is protected by the First Amendment.
Posted by: Phil Byler at June 23, 2006 09:54 PM (/kIDl)
10
Seen the NYT's stock price lately? They're doing a bang up job of "breaking themselves as a business" without any outside help.
Poor Pinch S. will be forced into a Yugo and living under a bridge in a cardboard box if the trend continues.
Posted by: Purple Avenger at June 24, 2006 11:15 AM (M0Kdm)
11
PA - Pinch is working for a Soviet comeback. That way, he'll be treated like a People's Champion. Probably get one of those big Russian limos and give up his evil corporate Lincoln.
Posted by: MCPO Airdale at June 24, 2006 11:50 AM (3nKvy)
12
Lint (good name - like what comes out of belly buttons...lol),
You are right. It may not be worth suing them seeing as their stock and circulation are declining sooooo fast. Maybe you should buy an extra subscription to help them out. Sorry that you can't even debate the substance of the issue of leaks - but hey - that's what NYT readers devolve into.
Posted by: Specter at June 24, 2006 03:27 PM (ybfXM)
13
I think Patrick is wrong to even imply a truck bomb should be used against the New York Times ... many innocent people in nearby buildings could be killed or injured.
I don't believe you are a terrorist sympathizer or a hypocrite, so why say things like this?
Coulter can get away with it because everyone knows she's a sideshow.
Posted by: Cyrus McElderry at June 24, 2006 03:38 PM (gvayH)
14
...so why say things like this?
As an expression of (that most favorite liberal sentiment) "outrage"...as in we're "outraged" that the NYT is a treasonous pack of terrorist aiding weasles.
Posted by: Purple Avenger at June 24, 2006 03:46 PM (M0Kdm)
15
By coincidence I think I just ran across the article that you are so upset about. You mean the "Cheney Assails Press on Report on Bank Data" one, right?
I'm a citizen and feel very strongly about government abuse of power, so I'm glad the Times reported this. How on earth does this revelation help the terrorists? The govt could already do this sort of thing with a warrant.
There is too much room for abuse of the democratic process with such practices. Suppose say, Hillary gets elected, and realizes that she can listen in on any call, including calls to and from the GOP headquarters, or can monitor financial transactions concerning her adversaries. I sure as hell don't want to see this happen. It's a risk we have to take to protect the Union.
Which brings up an awkward point -- if we suspect that such and such is a terrorist, why not GET A WARRANT? It's the same as the phone tapping controversy. FISA basically never turns down warrant requests, even 72 hours after the fact.
Whatever evidence comes up from this can't be used in court, so we'll never be able to charge anyone we catch. The courts will throw out illegally obtained evidence. Thus we have to keep criminals locked up in Gitmo, whereas we should be convicting them.
Cheney is a bold liar. A year ago he said the insurgency was in it's last throes, and just the other day he lied and said he was taken out of context. He also just said that there are over 250,000,000 fully trained, independent Iraqi troops, which is total hooey.
Posted by: Cyrus McElderry at June 24, 2006 03:53 PM (gvayH)
16
PA -- of course he's outraged, but you're missing the point, Either he wants the Times to be blown up, or he doesn't. In the first case he's a terrorist sympathizer, in the second he said something he doesn't believe.
Explain to me how outrage fits in here.
Posted by: Cyrus McElderry at June 24, 2006 03:56 PM (gvayH)
17
I meant "250,000 troops" up above, not "250,000,000 troops."
Posted by: Cyrus McElderry at June 24, 2006 03:57 PM (gvayH)
18
Cyrus,
You should read the article. It states there was nothing illegal done, that congress was briefed, and that the program was within the law. There was not outraged "whistleblower" who felt the government was overstepping its' bounds. So maybe you could rationalize and explain this:
I'm a citizen and feel very strongly about government abuse of power, so I'm glad the Times reported this. How on earth does this revelation help the terrorists? The govt could already do this sort of thing with a warrant.
Oh...wait...I know. It is because you think that if the NYT reports it, then it must have been illegal. You really should read and study before opening your mouth.
What the Times actually did was to reveal a national security secret that in their own article they say was not illegal. They just did it because they wanted to. And that is what you think of as good journalism? Maybe you should become a regular over at TruthNot. They like your brand of irrational non-logic.
Posted by: Specter at June 24, 2006 04:18 PM (ybfXM)
19
OH...BTW...the program is apparently covered under the Patriot Act.
Posted by: Specter at June 24, 2006 04:19 PM (ybfXM)
20
Specter -- You should read the article. It states there was nothing illegal done, that congress was briefed, and that the program was within the law.
It sounds like you didn't read the article. Several people provide differing viewpoints. For instance Arlen Specter is quoted as saying he "was concerned about the legal authority for the operation."
You really should read and study before opening your mouth.
That's rich.
Posted by: Cyrus McElderry at June 24, 2006 04:36 PM (gvayH)
21
Cyrus - Good try. Give me a specific link Cyrus - and I mean one that specifically claims that something illegal has been done. Here are the articles I read:
http://www. washingtonpost .com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/06/23/AR2006062300919.html
http://www. washingtonpost. com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/06/23/AR2006062300754.html, which included this excerpt:
The program to examine banking transactions is run out of the Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) and overseen by the U.S. Treasury Department. The records examined mostly involve wire transfers and other methods of moving money overseas or into and out of the United States.
http://www. washingtonpost .com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/06/23/AR2006062300167.html, including this (emphasis mine):
...has used the agency's powers of administrative subpoena to compel an international banking consortium to open its records. The Brussels-based cooperative, known as the Society for Worldwide Interbank Financial Telecommunication, or SWIFT, links about 7,800 banks and brokerages and handles billions of transactions a year.
~snip~
The program is "on rock-solid legal ground," Levey said, and is based on the IEEPA, which he said "specifically gives us the authority to conduct this type of investigation if there is an emergency declared by the president."
~snip~
In addition, the administration informed major central banks, including the Federal Reserve and the European Central Bank, of the program. "They were all briefed so they could exercise appropriate oversight," Levey said. "We have kept it confidential but made sure the appropriate people knew about it," including members of Congress involved in intelligence matters, he said.
~snip~
In a statement, SWIFT said it "responded to compulsory subpoenas for limited sets of data from the Office of Foreign Assets Control of the United States Department of the Treasury. Our fundamental principle has been to preserve the confidentiality of our users' data while complying with the lawful obligations in countries where we operate. Striking that balance has guided SWIFT through this process with the United States Department of the Treasury."
Arlen Specter? The darling of the NYT/WaPo. Listen - he was wrong on everything else he called hearings for - why would you think he's right on this? Again - try reading before you open that big trap.
Posted by: Specter at June 24, 2006 10:09 PM (ybfXM)
22
Specter -- About the NYT article you said this: You should read the article. It states there was nothing illegal done.
That's simply not true! It quotes Cheney as saying it's legal, the paper doesn't assert that it's legal. Of course he's going to say that. There are several dissenting views in the article, including the Arlen Specter one. But no, you say that one doesn't count, even though he's much more impartial than Cheney.
I read the first link you posted from the WaPo, and that was enough. Again there are about three dissenting views, in addition to the quotations that you reproduced. And again, it's Stuart Levey's opinion that this is legal, and of course he's going to say that given his position, it's not proof as you believe.
try reading before you open that big trap
I remembered someone saying something particularly stupid on this forum, and on a hunch I Googled for it, Sure enough:
"Sorry - you are wildly uniformed. Depends on which program you are talking about though. If you are talking TSP - yes."
--Specter
http://confederateyankee.mu.nu/archives/179743.php
I wouldn't have brought this up were it not for your ill manners.
Posted by: Cyrus McElderry at June 24, 2006 10:58 PM (gvayH)
23
OK Cyrus - I see that you did not take my challenge. Again. Instead you dodged the issue, just like any good disinformationalist when confronted by data.
I asked you to find any article that clearly asserts that something illegal was done - not just innuendo based on nothing simply because it is a Bush project.
The problem Cyrus is that you are so quick to call everything the Bush administration does illegal. Everything, whether or not someone actually claims it or not! I was serious that you should hang at KOS or TO! You and your interpreting skills would be very welcome there.
I have read many articles on this and nobody has outright said it is illegal. Not one. So let's go back to the article that started the whole thing - Lichtblau and Risen's NYT article (emphasis mine - and note that the emphasized portions talk about the various aspects of legality):
The Bush administration has made no secret of its campaign to disrupt terrorist financing, and President Bush, Treasury officials and others have spoken publicly about those efforts. Administration officials, however, asked The New York Times not to publish this article, saying that disclosure of the Swift program could jeopardize its effectiveness. They also enlisted several current and former officials, both Democrat and Republican, to vouch for its value.
~snip~
"We know the terrorists pay attention to our strategy to fight them, and now have another piece of the puzzle of how we are fighting them. We also know they adapt their methods, which increases the challenge to our intelligence and law enforcement officials."
~snip~
While the banking program is a closely held secret, administration officials have held classified briefings for some members of Congress and the Sept. 11 commission, the officials said. More lawmakers were briefed in recent weeks, after the administration learned The Times was making inquiries for this article.
~snip~
Similar subpoenas for the Western Union data allowed the F.B.I. to trace wire transfers, mainly outside the United States, and to help Israel disrupt about a half-dozen possible terrorist plots there by unraveling the financing, an official said.
~snip~
In 1976, the Supreme Court ruled that Americans had no constitutional right to privacy for their records held by banks or other financial institutions. In response, Congress passed the Right to Financial Privacy Act two years later, restricting government access to Americans' banking records. In considering the Swift program, some government lawyers were particularly concerned about whether the law prohibited officials from gaining access to records without a warrant or subpoena based on some level of suspicion about each target.
~snip~
For many years, law enforcement officials have relied on grand-jury subpoenas or court-approved warrants for such financial data. Since 9/11, the F.B.I. has turned more frequently to an administrative subpoena, known as a national security letter, to demand such records.
~snip~
Indeed, the cooperative's executives voiced early concerns about legal and corporate liability, officials said, and the Treasury Department's Office of Foreign Asset Control began issuing broad subpoenas for the cooperative's records related to terrorism. One official said the subpoenas were intended to give Swift some legal protection.
~snip~
Underlying the government's legal analysis was the International Emergency Economic Powers Act, which Mr. Bush invoked after the 9/11 attacks. The law gives the president what legal experts say is broad authority to "investigate, regulate or prohibit" foreign transactions in responding to "an unusual and extraordinary threat."
~snip~
Several former officials said they had lingering concerns about the legal underpinnings of the Swift operation. The program "arguably complies with the letter of the law, if not the spirit," one official said.
So again I ask - other than in your own mind - where did someone say that what was done was illegal? Remember I made that challenge in response to your post:
I'm a citizen and feel very strongly about government abuse of power, so I'm glad the Times reported this.
So - where is the reported abuse of you as a citizen? Care to point it out? Let's see...subpoena's were used, Congress informed, all gathered information audited - including the reasons to go after the information, etc. etc. Just specifically Cyrus - How were you abused by this?
You are very good at dodging the issue though Cyrus. So answer my questions. Simple enough. Don't try to wiggle out of what you said by saying "I read the first link you posted from the WaPo, and that was enough." Remember what I asked:
Cyrus - Good try. Give me a specific link Cyrus - and I mean one that specifically claims that something illegal has been done.
As to you bringing up what I said on this forum months ago - get over it. No criminal action from anyone in either the TSP or the data-mining operation. Interesting huh? I was right about that and you were not. So much for calling my post "stupid".
Oh - BTW - We should all thank the NYT though - Bush's numbers are going up again. Some day they may get it through their minds that most rational americans (the majority) support the President in his efforts to track down terrorists. LOL.
Posted by: Specter at June 25, 2006 10:53 AM (ybfXM)
24
dang...forgot a tag again.
Posted by: Specter at June 25, 2006 10:55 AM (ybfXM)
25
I have read many articles on this and nobody has outright said it is illegal. Not one. Then tell me, why do people regard this as news? That's not a rhetorical question.
Specter, you're making a strange argument here. The articles that you quoted present opinions from both side of the SWIFT monitoring debate. Now you're saying, no one happened to use the word 'illegal'. That's fatuous. We're just learning of the existence of the program, so it's not obvious whether the program is illegal or not. The whole point of these articles is that this secret program exists, and some people think it's an illegal abuse of power, and needs to be investigated.
Most important, I don't know that it was illegal! Maybe it is legal, I don't know enough to say. What I said was, "illegally obtained evidence gets thrown out of court," which is true. We need to find out ASAP if the SWIFT thing is legal. Again, the articles you quoted question this.
I'll clarify the point of my post: I'm glad the Times is reporting on the monitoring. I don't favor blindly trusting the government like extreme liberals do, I don't trust them at all, regardless of affiliation. That is the clear lesson I learned from the Founding Fathers and the Constitution; tyranny is the most dangerous enemy.
It's ridiculous to think that terrorists have been moving money with impunity, of course it's already occurred to them that they could be caught this way. Monitoring can for sure be done legally with a warrant, after all.
Posted by: Cyrus McElderry at June 25, 2006 12:12 PM (zz6Dj)
26
Cyrus,
Didn't answer again right? Thought not. How is is hurting you as a citizen. C'mon - be specific. You are the one who said it.
It's ridiculous to think that terrorists have been moving money with impunity, of course it's already occurred to them that they could be caught this way. Monitoring can for sure be done legally with a warrant, after all.
And yet again you make a veiled comment that if something isn't done by warrant then it is illegal. Subpoena's are legal documents Cyrus and are used to track down data on a regular basis.
Posted by: Specter at June 25, 2006 12:41 PM (ybfXM)
27
Specter,
How is is hurting you as a citizen. C'mon - be specific. You are the one who said it.
What I said is, I'm a citizen and feel very strongly about government abuse of power, so I'm glad the Times reported this. You're putting words in my mouth. If you mean, why am I concerned about government abuse of power, refere to what I said above: I don't favor blindly trusting the government like extreme liberals do, I don't trust them at all, regardless of affiliation. That is the clear lesson I learned from the Founding Fathers and the Constitution; tyranny is the most dangerous enemy.
Your arguments have been 1) no opponent used the word 'illegal'; 2) I have not been harmed as a citizen; 3) the quotations in your referenced articles prove that it was legal. None of these is worth debating in any detail.
And it's not the fist time. Again, you once said "Sorry - you are wildly uniformed. Depends on which program you are talking about though. If you are talking TSP - yes." In a context of where OF COURSE I was talkng about the TSP. You effectively said that I'm wildy uninformed, but correct. Your arguments have plenty of heat but not much coherence. I won't spend any more time debating you.
Posted by: Cyrus McElderry at June 25, 2006 02:35 PM (zz6Dj)
28
Good....I win. Take your ball and go home.
You are the one who said (all right implied through a direct statement) that somehow the government was abusing its power in this. And since you made the statement in the light of "I am a citizen" the natural way to interpret it is the government has been abusing it's power against citizens. I haven't seen it in any article besides the obligatory references to "officials that can't be named".
You followed that with the statement that you are glad the NYT told everyone about this legal, supervised program that has shown results in tracking down terrorists. So why? Why do you think this is an abuse of power. Why do you think that it adversely affects citizens? Why do you think it is OK for the NYT to publish national secrets?
Extreme liberals trust the government? Who?
I guess I will have to spend the effort to look up where you got the quote. How much do you want to bet that you took it out of context?
Posted by: Specter at June 25, 2006 05:21 PM (ybfXM)
29
You know...I was looking at my portfolio earlier today, thinking of some good stocks to purchase that are at 52 week lows. Then I did some stuff around the house (I won't bore you). Time passes, and here I am reading political blogs. Here I am reading CY, among others, about terrorists, bombs, threats, etc. Then I go back a few hours in my mind when I was thinking about stocks and my financial future and saying to myself..."aren't we all tired of talking about stupid bombs and terrorists that are so hyped in the so called liberal media and these ridiculous blogs? Why can't we go back to the 90's and think about social ideas, financial ideas, and real progress? The only thing people had to complain about was Clinton getting a blowjob, mainly the conservative hators, people who couldn't get laid in a women's prison with a fist full of pardons!" Go back and remember that everyday middleclass people were becoming millionaires via small business and the stock market. Now...we are trying to pay for our gasoline and the dow teeters back and fourth at 10 to 11 thousand for the past decade. In the past years...how backwards we have journeyed. It is such a waste of time and progress. Some people will never evolve. They will only think about guns and blowing up stuff, and how the boogie man is going to get us. Meanwhile, Bush and Cheney are building their business infastructure in Iraq at taxpayer expense, and continue to stablize the region to maintain their existing business partners, mainly Saudi Arabia. What a waste.
Posted by: Johnny at June 26, 2006 12:01 AM (Vtwo9)
30
So the gist of this is that there is a lot of oppinion that this may or may not be legal depending on whom is quoted. Of course, no one would have been quoted if this topic was given some light.
It'll be interesting to watch how conservatives will do 180's on all this executive power extensions if/when a non-republican gets in office.
Posted by: matt a at June 26, 2006 03:24 PM (IHMpz)
Hide Comments
| Add Comment
Netroots Meltdown?
The Netroots movement will fail because it's a myth based upon a lie sitting upon a foundation of fragmented political thought.
Gee Dan,
tell us what you really think.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
09:05 AM
| Comments (1)
| Add Comment
| Trackbacks (Suck)
June 22, 2006
Democratic Underground: Miami Terror Raid Keeps the Black Man Down
The Democratic Underground is all over the Miami terror arrests, quickly discerning the real reason for the raid:
This raid sounds like b.s. and voter intimidation to me
This is more of J.E.B.'s campaign to keep black people in Florida from voting. Bet on it.
The Democratic Underground: Because sometimes, you feel like a nut.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
08:42 PM
| Comments (30)
| Add Comment
| Trackbacks (Suck)
Posted by: Jim Hoft at June 22, 2006 09:04 PM (o2uob)
2
Good find. I linked to it!
Posted by: Jay at June 22, 2006 09:11 PM (4YGmN)
3
"Feel like a nut?" Man... they make my balls ache.
Posted by: Acidman at June 22, 2006 09:24 PM (1NV83)
4
It's the jihad stupid!
The local blacks in the nieghborhood being interviewed by CNN are talking about how wierd the behavior of the Miami 7. Most muslims aren't black. Remember Johnny Walker Lindh? Islam is a religion, more accurately, a cult.
Posted by: kevin at June 22, 2006 09:45 PM (FlgkN)
5
Is the DU so racist that its thinks that Muslims of colour cannot contribute to the Jahid against the western materialist Christians and Jews
Posted by: PaulV at June 22, 2006 09:58 PM (y6n8O)
6
The DU has it all wrong. Karl Rove planted those guys to distract attention from the searing debate in Congress on John Kerry's proposal on Iraq. Everybody knows that Kerry actually won the election, and now that Kerry is overwhelming getting the country to go against the war, which he was against from the absolute beginning, Bush is trying to steal headlines from him. Kerry's plan was about to be voted on and passed and Karl Rove planted WMDs in Iraq. When that didn't get traction, he then called in anonymous tip to have these guys busted. C'mon, Miami? How long did it take Rove to have those patsys brought in from Gitmo? An hour and a half?
Everyone knows that 90% of the country agrees with the brilliant Democrat plan of redeployment, and Rove is desperate. Bush is losing, and Rove can't save him, no matter how many innocent Muslims he tries to scapegoat.
Posted by: Brian at June 22, 2006 10:30 PM (zAQ9h)
7
Brian nailed it - the conspiracy against the Democrats is deep and wide - and notwithstanding that 90% or better - I'm thinking at least 110% - of America, including the caribou in ANWR - oppose the ChimpyBushCheneyHalliburtonHitler endless war machine - we don't stand a chance until someone starts telling truth to power.
Like Michael Moore. But, you know, slimmer. And without food stuck in his teeth. And with clean, combed hair.
But not John Kerry. He's to thin. And his teeth look fake. And his hair is too clean and combed.
Someone else. Maybe Mother what's her name?
Posted by: Tim at June 22, 2006 10:42 PM (VrD3d)
8
you guys ought to be locked up at gitmo for "writing while stupid". what a bunch of conspiracy nuts; i'm ashamed to share the same country with you!
Posted by: scooter at June 22, 2006 11:06 PM (SrL1m)
9
Hey...I'm a Democrat and I could care less. Oklahoma City bombing wasn't the "Jihad stupid". Them were Conservative white boys who liked Jesus.
Posted by: Trevor at June 22, 2006 11:07 PM (QqVLv)
10
Sheetcan! Sheetcan! That's her name Shee can' do it nobody can.
Posted by: Richard at June 22, 2006 11:08 PM (WCcZ3)
11
trevor, we're generalizing a little bit, aren't we? somehow, i don't see mcvey and what's-his-name being all that religious. deluded, irrational, and generally psychotic, maybe, but not religious...
Posted by: scooter at June 22, 2006 11:10 PM (SrL1m)
12
McVeigh was a self-professed agnostic who accepted last rites from a preist while strapped to a gurney immediately before his execution.
He was probably as dismissive of real Christians as much as you are, Trevor.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at June 22, 2006 11:31 PM (0fZB6)
13
McVeigh had more of his philosophy in line with the Aryan Nation and the Neo-Nazis than with the Christian Right, Trevor.
That puts him firmly on YOUR side, especially as far as your shared opinions on Iraq and President Bush.
Posted by: DaveP. at June 22, 2006 11:39 PM (xiXrT)
14
Come one guys and gals, you can't blame the DU's because 95% of the US is out of touch with "mainstream America"...
;-)
Posted by: Faith+1 at June 23, 2006 05:33 AM (N2nlb)
15
You know I have travaled this country from east to west north to south and a good part of the world.I can only say that the nuts at KOS and DU do not come out in public much. They must inhabit the wood work like cockrochs and just come out when the lights are off. What idiots. cvey was a democrat.
Posted by: Jack Hamilton at June 23, 2006 06:38 AM (hdbKo)
16
Scooter,
Thanks for your liberal insight.Now allow me
to enlighten you.Brian and Tim were using an
ancient writing style called sarcasm.You are
the idiot.
Posted by: Ritchie Skrongpal at June 23, 2006 07:09 AM (kLgZd)
17
And the point of posting one comment from that site and applying it to everyone was...what?
Posted by: g at June 23, 2006 07:25 AM (ZDZQ0)
18
You can see then on parade any sunny afternoon in downtown Burlington VT. It is very entertaining.
Posted by: moptop at June 23, 2006 08:01 AM (oPLPa)
19
I wouldn't worry too much about the democratic underground and what they think. They are only 10 or 11 thousand, and when you realize that the same poster may sign up with different names, probably even less. I actually think the forum is a plot by Rove and other Republicans to push the Democratic party off into the left wing fringes and to turn off the conservative Dems who they hope will swing to the Republican party.
What both parties do not realize is that by pandering to the extemists in their own parties, they are alienating most people from political debate and from participating in our political process. A government that does not represent the country will lead to our downfall.
About the bust of the terrorist group, we should give the FBI credit where they are due. This isn't about politics. The FBI is suppose to be unpolitical and functioning no matter how bad our president is. I hope the media plays this up big time so that the rest of the world sees we are just not as weak as they think. This is a time to be tough and for every American to be proud. It is also a time to be honest and realize that both immigrants and muslims may be here for the wrong reasons. It isn't racism...it's profiling. Let the FBI do what they do best, and force the politicians to run our government better or find another job.
Posted by: Momintn at June 23, 2006 08:51 AM (fMJUx)
20
I can't believe how stupid you all are. Some of the things you say are amazingly stupid. Mind bogling.
Posted by: dude at June 23, 2006 09:24 AM (b96e6)
21
dude;
As stupd as you misspelling "boggling"?
Posted by: droast at June 23, 2006 10:16 AM (1Q9iV)
22
Anyone who has frequented that pathetic site should not be surprised at what those laughable dingbats spew..
It truly is the laughing stock of the web!
Posted by: Ann at June 23, 2006 10:52 AM (N9kTt)
23
Droast,
Even stupider. In fact, as stupid as you misspelling stupid!
Posted by: noggin at June 23, 2006 11:01 AM (PjXTN)
24
I'd be surprised if the DUmmies actually had more than 1-2,000 DUmbAsses at that site! I see MANY of the clueless there touting their 90,000 PLUS strong numbers, as shown on their registrations!
HEY IDIOTS... Those are "REGISTRATIONS"!!!
If they'd show "BANNINGS", I'm SURE you'd see 89,000! I've been banned NUMEROUS TIMES and I know MANY others that have been also.
Check out the DUmmie FUnnies at Freerepublic to get some GOOD insight on the way their wilted minds work!
Posted by: frank at June 23, 2006 11:23 AM (euY8f)
25
The attack of the Hadji Homeys! LOL Homey doan play dat! Me I blame it all on the influx of 7/11s owned by Habeebs in the hood as when they go to pick up some 40's and Kools they are indoctrinated! Da man be out fo jack ya'all up!
Posted by: mrdick at June 23, 2006 02:05 PM (uvxQa)
26
Jack Hamilton- Great post, I have never met in the flesh a single moonbat, seen hundreds on TV and read the many posts but heard one with my own ears right in front of me , no. I have tried to catch up with a few while driving because of thier moonbat bumper stickers, just to see a real flesh and blood moonbat a little like when I take my boys to the zoo.
Posted by: Lisa at June 23, 2006 03:47 PM (Z212r)
27
um, yeah, Lisa. Get out of your trailer park and go to a city. Try NYC, Chicago, SF, Boston, LA, Seattle, Portland, Atlanta, Miami
Plenty of, er, "moonbats" in every urban metro area in the United States.
Posted by: Lint at June 23, 2006 04:35 PM (ovkHy)
28
Actually Trevor, you are way off call McVeigh a Christian. He was a self proclaimed agnostic.
In an article by United Kingdom’s “The Guardian” about McVeigh’s execution, we find this reference:
“In his letter, McVeigh said he was an agnostic but that he would "improvise, adapt and overcome", if it turned out there was an afterlife. "If I'm going to hell," he wrote, "I'm gonna have a lot of company." His body is to be cremated and his ashes scattered in a secret location.”
He also said he was an agnostic to Lou Michel during a cyber interview with CNN. Lou Michel spent hours interviewing McVeigh in writing a book titled, “American Terrorist: Timothy McVeigh and the Oklahoma City Bombing”.
Lou Michel: McVeigh is agnostic. He doesn't believe in God, but he won't rule out the possibility. I asked him, ‘What if there is a heaven and hell?’
He said that once he crosses over the line from life to death, if there is something on the other side, he will -- and this is using his military jargon – ‘adapt, improvise, and overcome.’ Death to him is all part of the adventure.”
Posted by: Xpyder at June 23, 2006 08:08 PM (nT2T8)
29
Mr. McVeigh made and received a few hundred phone calls to/from the Philippines before he blew up the Murah Building. The Reno Justice Department (you remember them, the ones that repeatedly used military force against their own citizens with deadly effect, killing women and children) did everything they could to not investigate any complication in Mr. McVeigh's crime and he might hold the modern record for an American felon for least elapsed time between arrest and execution.
Posted by: Dan Roll at June 23, 2006 09:22 PM (jiktV)
30
Hey, Oliver Willis thinks they're just a "cult" rather than a bunch of terrorists. I believe him!
Cults are something democrats KNOW how to deal with. Get Janet "torch" Reno and her Zippo and your cult problems just vanish.
At least I think Willis was suggesting we exterminate them using the Clintonian approach by declaring them a cult wasn't he?
Posted by: Purple Avenger at June 24, 2006 11:19 AM (M0Kdm)
Hide Comments
| Add Comment
Sears Tower Targeted For Terror
ABC News has the details:
ABC News has learned that federal agents, including the FBI, are launching a series of raids tonight targeting a suspected terror cell based in Miami.
According to sources familiar with the investigation, the group allegedly planned to bomb the FBI building in Miami and the Sears Tower in Chicago.
The group has been under surveillance for some time and was infilitrated by a government informant who allegedly led them to believe he was an Islamic radical. The suspects are described as African Americans and at least one man of Caribbean descent.
I guess that NSA "domestic spying" program works pretty good, doesn't it? (Yes, I know it sounds like a classic infiltration operation, but still.) At least one was an illegal alien.
This operation is on-going, expect more details to follow.
As always,
Allah is on top of it. It's almost like he has something to do with Islamic terrorism...
Update: moved D.U. quote to it's
own thread.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
07:41 PM
| Comments (1)
| Add Comment
| Trackbacks (Suck)
1
In a series of books, and a rather unpopular, but popular RP game, called ShadowRun, there is a description of the world.
It's a post appocolyptic world, created by terrorism and neglect, and the Chicago Loop, is no longer known as "the loop" since, in 2013, there was a seperatist terrorist action against the Sears Tower, that led to a flood, and an uncontrollable fire ravaging the downtown area of chicago.
No longer was "the loop" called "the loop" in this world of stories, and gameplay, rather, it was nicknamed "the noose."
If the sears tower were to TILT over, to the east? it would destroy most of the major buildings in the down town area, and it might initiation a domino destruction of a GREAT many buildings in the downtown area.
The Sears Tower, isn't a fraction the demonstration construction might that the Twin Towers were. The only thing in Chicago that is comparable is Hancock.
BLAH BLAH BLAH
If the little dicked cowards of Islam wanted to do real damage? They would have hit Chicago, that is why this is a MAJOR threat.
Posted by: Wickedpinto at June 22, 2006 11:48 PM (QTv8u)
Hide Comments
| Add Comment
Talking Moore
Via InstaPundit, we hear thoughts about a man we don't hear too much of these days, Michael Moore:
With all the uproar over what rating the movie "Facing the Giants" will get, surely Moore would be offering some thoughts?
After all, when "Fahrenheit 9/11" was given an R rating, Moore told teenagers to disregard authority: "I encourage all teenagers to come see my movie, by any means necessary. If you need me to sneak you in, let me know." Moore said, "There is nothing in the film in terms of violence that we didn't see on TV every night at the dinner hour during the Vietnam War."
Speaking of Michael Moore and wars and small screen violence, a frontline Iraqi interpreter named "Hoss" at Pat Dollard's
has a few words (Quicktime, NSFW) for Mr. Moore in his latest
Young Americans teaser. I didn't catch all of it, but I think he compared him to poison ivy.
At least, I
think he called him a "little itch." I might be missing something in translation.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
05:29 PM
| Comments (19)
| Add Comment
| Trackbacks (Suck)
1
Not able to pull your trailers, but Moore is obviously a target for right wingers. Yes, Moore gets carried away oftentimes, but his prior movie has unfortunately proven to contain more truth than many would care to admit. I use the word "unfortunately" because as much as I am disliking the current administration, I do hope for the best possible outcome given the mess our current leadership has put us in...I think Jack Cafferty said it best when he stated..."North Korea and Iran are building nuclear weapons, and we are in Iraq". We jump to Iraq, but now we must use diplomatic caution with somebody who undisputedly has an nuke! Face the cold hard truth. We are in Iraq for the oil, nothing but. If Somalia had oil, we'd be over there so fast helping poor people, you couldn't blink. What a mess. Before everyone attacks. I watch Fox news more than I do CNN. Not too long before the Reps get a correction in November. As Bill O'Reilly (The Factor is my favorite) said it...If Reps don't fix our influx of immigrants, that will be their Waterloo, the final straw for abandoned "true" conservatives. Though prices of services are low because of their work, our healthcare and other social services are skyrocketing. Amazing how all we hear is talk about security, but any Tom, Dick, and Harry (should I say Pedro, who could pass as a Muslim extremist) can cross our boarder. Oh...except prescription drugs. That would be unsafe to get drugs from Canada. Corporate America and the American Medical Association own our current congress and administration. What a joke, and the conservative middle class keeps falling for the same song and dance every time. Keep your eyes out for polarizing legislation in the fall, like gay marriage. It's coming! See where it gets you. Nowhere.
Posted by: Johnny at June 22, 2006 06:09 PM (Vtwo9)
2
Your tinfoil hat is too tight. It is cutting off the flow of blood to your brain.
Posted by: David Gillies at June 22, 2006 06:20 PM (RC1AQ)
3
Johnny,
Jack Cafferty says nothing "best."
You need to take some quality Brawny Academy time. Think of it not so much as 'reeducation' camp but as doubleplus good right learning time
http://www.brawnyacademy.com/index.html
Posted by: BumperStickerist at June 22, 2006 06:26 PM (PcDvW)
4
As I suspected...nothing with any substance...a lot of manly man anti-liberal BS.
Posted by: Johnny at June 22, 2006 06:37 PM (Vtwo9)
5
Folks let's keep the comments PG, please.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at June 22, 2006 07:24 PM (0fZB6)
6
But Johnny, you have to win elections to make laws. Slight problem there for the past 12 years, and it look like you'll blow this next opportunity in typical fashion.
Posted by: murtha abscam okinawa at June 22, 2006 07:39 PM (Olu/e)
7
OK, Johnny, we'll invade North Korea and Iran next. Happy now?
Posted by: Anon E. Mouse at June 22, 2006 07:46 PM (d3avk)
8
Liberal: "conspiracy theories and sophistry, repeating talking points without intellectual examination."
Conservative: mockery
Liberal, with haughty tone: "As I suspected...nothing with any substance."
Yeah. Go play the game somewhere else.
Posted by: Christopher Taylor at June 22, 2006 07:48 PM (Pwzb0)
9
"If Somalia had oil, we'd be over there so fast helping poor people, you couldn't blink."
There are substantial oil deposits in Darfur, so according to your theory, we should have gotten there "so fast you couldn't blink".
Why aren't we?
Posted by: Robert Crawford at June 22, 2006 08:50 PM (bH9q3)
10
Why aren't we?
Good question.
Posted by: Pixy Misa at June 22, 2006 09:08 PM (FRalS)
11
Uh, because Murtha talked Clinton into pulling out in '93?
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at June 22, 2006 09:12 PM (0fZB6)
12
Wait a minute... If we're robbing all of Iraq's oil, why did I just pay 2.69 a gallon 15 minutes ago? Where is all this ill-gotten oil being stored? Rove's ass? That is the biggest straw man bullsh*t argument against the war yet, but that wont stop the Democrats from banging that drum all the way to yet another defeat.
Posted by: The Drizzle at June 22, 2006 09:18 PM (jstHd)
13
Why aren't we in Somalia?
CY beat me to it. We WERE in Somalia. But the left considered the warlords not the real enemy, Somalia not a threat to us and decided to get out before we lost anyone else "for no good reason."
Bin Laden spicifically mentiond our retreat there as a reason he thought 911 would suceed.
Posted by: monkeyboy at June 23, 2006 05:52 AM (8Ms63)
14
I highly recommend the documentary "Michael Moore Hates America" by Michael Wilson. There is a segment with Sgt.Peter Damon, who lost both his arms in Iraq, talking about how Moore used NBC footage of him in the VA hospital in "Fahrenheit 9/11" without his consent. Sgt.Damon has since filed a lawsuit against Michael Moore.
Posted by: Tom TB at June 23, 2006 08:22 AM (y6n8O)
15
We were in Somalia. Murtha demanded we leave.
Posted by: drjohn at June 23, 2006 10:00 AM (Bglwi)
16
Michael Moore Hates America is a very good movie. I do wish the title were different so that some of my liberal friends would be open to seeing it --- maybe a title like Chickenhawk 2017 ---. This documentary exposes Moore and his style of documenting "facts."
Posted by: Greg at June 23, 2006 11:45 AM (zaFvd)
17
Johnny,
Yeah, the damn conservative middle class can be so easily bought off with a phone in the pocket, broadband internet, and 100 channel cable TV (and Hi-Def). They're being bought off by 'the man' and they don't even know it.
On the other hand, maybe you (and Bruce Springsteen) think you're a character in the Grapes of Wrath. In the 30s the poor worried about their next meal. In the 'oughts' the poor have obesity problems. You want to help the poor then help elect law and order mayors for the cities. Because that's where our lives diverge the most - order and security.
Sweetie
Posted by: Sweetie at June 23, 2006 02:42 PM (CGv6G)
18
Venezuela is a pain, and they have oil. Why aren't we there?
We have troops in South Korea, which helps contain NoKo.
We have troops in Iraq and Afghanistan, which helps (a little) with the whackjobs in Iran.
Before 9/11, we didn't have troops in Iraq or Afghanistan.
In war, as in real estate; location, location, location.
Posted by: sulla at June 23, 2006 04:16 PM (tNTd5)
Hide Comments
| Add Comment
In My Mind, I'm Gone To Carolina
I'm against using the entire state, but we could certainly slip them into Chapel Hill without anyone noticing.
*
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
01:04 PM
| Comments (2)
| Add Comment
| Trackbacks (Suck)
1
Don't we still send all our criminals to Georgia?
Posted by: The man at June 22, 2006 01:59 PM (EDlAL)
2
Yes you do. But we've run out and are back to using paper targets. Please send some more.
Posted by: GeorgiaBoy at June 23, 2006 09:50 AM (Uw66l)
Hide Comments
| Add Comment
The Santorum Code
We've now had roughly 15 hours since Senator Rick Santorum and Rep. Pete Hoestra announced in a hastily-called news conference that a newly declassified portion of a report from the National Ground Intelligence Center (NGIC) confirmed that approximately 500 chemical weapons have been recovered in Iraq since 2003.
Since that time, the major media outlets have greeted this story with a virtual
news blackout, leaving this story to the blogosphere to analyze.
Predictably, reaction to this story seems to fall along party lines. Many conservative bloggers covering the story see this as an absolute vindication of the Bush Administration, and are ecstatic. Quite a few others are more cautious, hoping to see more in the way of details released from the still-classified NGIC report from which the summary was culled.
On the other side of the political spectrum, many liberal blogs seemed almost rudderless in the hours after the story broke, almost as if they were waiting for guidance from either the silent media or equally quiet top-flight liberal blogs. Since then, they have mostly seemed to fallen in line behind Dafna Linzer of the
Washington Post, who is taking the position, "
nothing to see here/this doesn't count."
So what do we really have, and what do we really know?
We know for a fact that under Saddam Hussein, Iraqi began cultivating the development of chemical weapons in 1971. An article from the United Nations News Centre
tells us further (h/t
Flopping Aces:
Iraq first started exploring chemical weapons in 1971, and reviews developments through the establishment of a “large-scale chemical weapons programme” in 1981. The capacity expanded from there to the point that “according to Iraq, the use of chemical weapons achieved its major purpose and made a significant impact on the outcome of the Iran-Iraq war.”
According to declarations made by Iraq, in the period from 1981 to 1991 the chemical weapon programme produced approximately 3,850 tons of the chemical warfare agents mustard, tabun, sarin and VX, the report states.
Of the total of some 3,850 tons of chemical warfare agents produced, approximately 3,300 tons of agents were weaponized in different types of aerial bombs, artillery munitions and missile warheads.
In the period from 1981 to 1991, Iraq weaponized some 130,000 chemical munitions in total. Of these, over 101,000 munitions were used in combat, according to Iraq, in the period from 1981 to 1988.
Iraq declared that some 28,500 chemical munitions remained unused as of January 1991; about 5,500 filled munitions were destroyed by coalition forces during the war in 1991, while another 500 filled munitions were declared destroyed unilaterally by Iraq. “These last two figures were partially verified by United Nations inspectors,” the report states.
The bulk of the destruction of some 22,000 filled munitions occurred under the supervision of the UN inspectors in accordance with Security Council resolution 687 (1991) – the "ceasefire resolution" which ended the war – in the period from 1991 to 1994. During the collection of chemical weapons for destruction after the 1991 war, Iraq stated that it was not able to locate some 500 chemical munitions.
Iraq claimed it had 28,500 chemical weapons in 1991, and about 5,500 were destroyed in the 1991 Gulf War bringing the total to 23,000. Iraq then claims to have destroyed 500 munitions on their own and 22,000 weapons were destroyed under the supervision of U.N. weapons inspectors. This leaves us with roughly 500 chemical weapons that Iraq was unable to locate.
Are these same 500 chemical weapons that Iraq was unable to account for the same 500 chemical weapons that Santorum and Hoekstra revealed that U.S. forces have captured, and the same 500 that Dafna Linzer claims were buried in the desert near the Iran-Iraq border during their 1980-88 war?
If it can be verified that these are the missing 500 munitions from Saddam's declaration to the United Nations, then the accounting of Saddam's known weapons of mass destruction should be very close to complete. There should be no more significant caches of chemical weapons found in Iraq. It took 15 years and a war, but his chemical weapons have apparently all been accounted for and no significant quantities of thes munitions seem to have fallen into the hands of the various terrorist groups that Saddam cultivated in Iraq and elsewhere in the Middle East.
This news in and of itself would seem to be a significant victory.
But this is not how this story has been presented by Rick Santorum and Pete Hoekstra. They make the presentation that the 500 weapons found by U.S forces since the invasion of Iraq by Coalition forces justify the WMD rationale, one of several reasons and by far the one most publicized used to justify this conflict.
I wish that this did justify that rationale, but it does not.
Our rationale was based on the thought that Saddam was continuing to develop and experiment with weapons of mass destruction, and that he continued to have the capability to build chemical and biological weapons. Saddam, indeed, led the world to believe that he still had this capability, and it wasn't until after the war that we discovered that he may have been bluffing all along. We have found no more modern (post 1991) chemical weapons in Iraq. We have found no smoking gun showing concrete proof of more recent development, and it is quite possible we never may.
It does, however, seem to close the book on the WMDs known to have existed in Iraq as of January 1991, as declared by the government of Saddam Hussein. The 500 munitions Saddam's Army could not locate seem to have been recovered by the U.S military. While small quantities of these weapons may still turn up, no significant caches should remain to be discovered.
That fact alone, that we recovered these approximately 500 "lost" munitions, is reason enough to celebrate, but it neither proves nor disproves the existence of a post-1991 weapons program.
If any significant future caches are found, however, then the game will indeed be afoot, and both the media and doubters in the blogosphere will be out of valid excuses.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
11:30 AM
| Comments (16)
| Add Comment
| Trackbacks (Suck)
1
What's this? A reasonable post at CY? The 4 horsemen must be on their way.
Posted by: jpe at June 22, 2006 11:29 AM (5ceWd)
Posted by: The Heretik at June 22, 2006 11:33 AM (mLyjh)
3
I don't remember the issue to have been about post 1991 weapons. Everyone seems to rewrite history. I remember the issue and it was give us the weapons, let us look for them or ELSE.
ELSE happened. Without 911 we probably had the time and resources to play around another ten or more years.
With 911 we had to face an active and agressive enemy and it would have been imprudent to leave a mad dog at our backs.
As it turned out we got to fight the enemy in the mad dogs own junk yard and our yard staid quite nice.
Posted by: RFYoung at June 22, 2006 12:58 PM (WqZCc)
4
I guess we will have to wait for the testimony that only time can produce...
Posted by: Old Soldier at June 22, 2006 01:28 PM (X2tAw)
5
I'd agree with jpe, although I'll attempt to be less sarcastic. Congratulations for making a good analysis. You made exactly the point that seems to be missing from most right-wing blogs.
As to the numbers; well, when I read the memo itself, it says "Since 2003 Coalition forces have recovered approximately 500 weapons munitions which contain degraded mustard or sarin nerve agent." My reading of that is that it's talking about things that have been found in dribs and drabs, and therefore *not* the ones Santorum is talking about, which came in a big lump. So we're already at 1000 shells that have been found.
I think your analysis is far too precise; you're ignoring the various "approximately"s in your sources. More importantly, I don't have as much faith in the Ba'athist bureaucracy as you do; I'd imagine that there was a continous "loss" of weapons as they got siphoned off by corrupt middle-ranking officers making shady deals without telling their superiors, and fiddling the books to cover their tracks.
I'm sure there are thousands more chemical weapons in Iraq, but this isn't relevant to the justification for going to war. The war was against Saddam Hussein, not Iraq, and Saddam Hussein didn't have access to the "lost" weapons. As long as he didn't build any more, I think we could have felt safe from him.
Of course, having thousands of loose chemical weapons is a bad thing, and worth cleaning up. Indeed, there are various reasons for invading the place, some of them even reasonable. The key point that pisses people off is that those weren't the reasons that were given. The reason that was given was bogus. That really shouldn't be forgiven.
Posted by: Mat at June 22, 2006 01:40 PM (SfpLY)
6
Well, from your conclusions, you seem to have tasted the poison kool-aid also. There are lots of other reasons for having gone into Iraq. It is just no one remembers them. Too much McDonalds.
The Hobo
Posted by: Robohobo at June 22, 2006 02:00 PM (jDjP3)
7
I think the Duelfer Reports that Hussein was, in fact, attempting to reconstitute his WMD programs, and that he was further along than even we realized. That was one of the primary issues, not that he had completely reconstituted them. I'd have to go back and re-read the report, and look again at our claims leading up to the war, but I don't believe anyone actually claimed the programs were active. Am I missing something?
Posted by: NukemHill at June 22, 2006 03:16 PM (lHcjX)
8
What NukemHill said. At first, after Duelfer, it was all programs and no stockpiles, now it's all stockpiles and no programs.
Maybe it's just the champagne I've been guzzling, but you and Patterico and Allahpundit are looking a little hard to please...
Posted by: See-Dubya at June 22, 2006 03:37 PM (Fqfkz)
9
Being the forthright and totally standup guy Saddam is, we would of course be complete fools to not take Saddam's pre-91 accounting as anything but the gospel.
Want to buy any land in FL? Its kind of submerged real estate at the moment, but I can cut you a real good deal on it.
Posted by: Purple Avenger at June 22, 2006 04:55 PM (M0Kdm)
10
I've re-read the joint resolution. In retrospect, some of the language is a little vague, so there's plenty of wiggle room for all sides in this little debate. I'm leaving town before dawn tomorrow morning, but if I get a chance, I'm going to blog a little on this myself.
Language games can be sooooo much fun....
Posted by: NukemHill at June 22, 2006 04:59 PM (lHcjX)
11
"coalition forces have recovered approximately 500 weapons munitions which contain degraded mustard or sarin nerve agent."
You're gloating because we've sacrificed 2,500 of our finest over 500 expired chemical munitions.
Maybe the MSM doesn't think this is a big deal.
Now is that time when you pretend like we were marching democracy all along.
Posted by: Cyrus McElderry at June 22, 2006 05:19 PM (DixoE)
12
Excellent summary, missing only one important point; the ISG report stated, quite specifically, that Saddam had the capability to restart his WMD program on almost a moment's notice. It suggests that he could have gotten Amthrax production up and going within a week, and been producing large quantities within a month...our 'fears' of Saddam were quite justified, as France and German were agitating to have the sanctions lifted, and once they were lifted, Saddam would have been free to reconstitute his army and WMD development.
Posted by: Steve at June 22, 2006 06:28 PM (Xq0Cz)
13
I haven't followed the WMD story exclusively, so bear with me -
As late as 2000 - we have this gentleman (link) that says:
"The young engineer is quoted as saying Iraqi leader Saddam Hussein will never give up his dream of being the first Arab leader to have the atomic bomb"
I Al-googled his name - and only this same article comes up - so was this man ever heard from again? Or was he discredited? Last name is Zweir-
http://www.fas.org/news/iraq/2000/12/iraq-001224.htm
Posted by: Enlightened at June 22, 2006 09:57 PM (iB7ZQ)
14
Here's another (long and technical read)link that indicates Iraq's desire to produce a nuclear weapon. Interestingly enough, the author was a whistle-blower against scientists and intelligistas that chose to look the other way.
What I'm getting at in these links is the mind-set that everyone thought Saddam was just a blowhard loon that didn't need to be taken out.
IMO, on the contrary - these links prove his maniacal desire to have WMD.
This article covers all the way to 2001 - and we are to believe Saddam was HARMLESS?
"In July 1991, shortly after the Gulf War, news from Iraq confirmed what I had concluded twelve years earlier: That Iraq had decided to use the calutron electromagnetic isotope separation (EMIS) process to produce highly enriched uranium, i.e., the very same process that was actually used to produce the uranium-235 that was fissioned in the atomic bomb that exploded over Hiroshima in August 1945."
http://nuclearweaponarchive.org/Iraq/Calutron.html
Posted by: Enlightened at June 22, 2006 10:26 PM (iB7ZQ)
15
Geez Cyrus....You have any more sour grapes you want to air now that you were proved wrong...again?
Do you have any clue as to how much damage a couple of gallons of sarin could do if stuck in a bottle with say something as simple as an M-80 attached to it? Do you know how many innocent people that would kill? That's why they are called Weapons of MASS Destruction. Get a clue.
Posted by: Specter at June 23, 2006 12:39 PM (ybfXM)
Hide Comments
| Add Comment
WMD Media Blackout
To put it mildly, this bears discussion:
The United States has found 500 chemical weapons in Iraq since 2003, and more weapons of mass destruction are likely to be uncovered, two Republican lawmakers said Wednesday.
"We have found weapons of mass destruction in Iraq, chemical weapons," Sen. Rick Santorum, R-Pa., said in a quickly called press conference late Wednesday afternoon.
Reading from a declassified portion of a report by the National Ground Intelligence Center, a Defense Department intelligence unit, Santorum said: "Since 2003, coalition forces have recovered approximately 500 weapons munitions which contain degraded mustard or sarin nerve agent. Despite many efforts to locate and destroy Iraq's pre-Gulf War chemical munitions, filled and unfilled pre-Gulf War chemical munitions are assessed to still exist."
Or at least, one
might think this would bear discussion, whether Santorum and Hoekstra are right or wrong.
If correct, their claims of found chemical weapons—mustard gas or sarin, filled or unfilled, degraded or in perfect condition—would seemingly vindicate the Bush Administration and bury a key canard of leftist opposition to the war, that soldiers and civilians have "died for a lie."
Likewise, it would be worth it for the media/anti-war/Democratic Party camps to begin questioning the story, on the chance that Santorum and Hoekstra have buried themselves with inaccurate information.
Everyone should be talking about this… so why aren't they?
While Fox News runs a story about the Santorum/Hoestra release, CNN, MSNBC, CBS, ABC, the Los Angeles
Times, the New York
Times, and the Boston
Globe have taken the code of
omertà as of midnight, though the Washington
Post, to its slim credit, squeaked out a
page A10 mention essentially claiming that
these WMDs didn't count, even though they provide exactly zero support for their claims.
With the exception of Fox News, the WMD story and the underlying newly declassified
six paragraph summary (PDF) seems to be the subject of a major news blackout.
Is this silence the sound of fear?
7:00 AM Update: According to a Google News search for WMDs, all the news organizations cited above still refuse to discuss this news.
Shocking.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
12:32 AM
| Comments (12)
| Add Comment
| Trackbacks (Suck)
1
So confusing... You've been telling us for 3 years now that the presence of WMD was never the point. Now it is?
Posted by: The Liberal Avenger at June 22, 2006 12:31 PM (ulU1a)
2
Did you even bother to read the post before commenting. This is a post about the media coverage--actually the lock of media coverage--of what should be a front-page story.
Anyone with even a room temperature IQ should have been able to discern that as the main theme of this post.
I guess for you, it really was "so confusing," just as you state...
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at June 22, 2006 12:44 PM (g5Nba)
3
Of course he didn't read it - it contains "facts" - something that liberals are deathly afraid of...
Posted by: Zone3 at June 22, 2006 12:53 PM (L/qA6)
4
Well I agree with you. It is odd that this hasn't received more play in the news.
Perhaps it's because Rick Santorum is such a tool.
Posted by: The Liberal Avenger at June 22, 2006 12:55 PM (ulU1a)
5
Bainbridge:
http://www.professorbainbridge.com/2006/06/500_wmd_shells_.html
Posted by: The Liberal Avenger at June 22, 2006 12:56 PM (ulU1a)
6
Don't you get it, they had their REALLY BIG story today ... the Duke case. They trash a minority woman, defend the drunken jocks of Duke as "boys will be boys," all the while claiming that our guys looking at a Muslim woman constitutes torture (remember Kerry's "terrorizing women and children in the middle of the night" claim. Ooooooh, such torture.
Posted by: Sara (Squiggler) at June 22, 2006 01:08 PM (1mQHF)
7
Well, this makes it all worthwhile. Wait, no it doesn't!
Remember this fun from 2004? http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,120137,00.html
This is old news brought to the forefront by a desperate Senator trying to keep his seat.
Posted by: Shelby Tse at June 22, 2006 02:07 PM (rCAIM)
8
Maybe this will clear it up for you:
From the Fox News report:
' a senior Defense Department official pointed out that the chemical weapons were not in useable conditions.
This does not reflect a capacity that was built up after 1991," the official said, adding the munitions "are not the WMDs this country and the rest of the world believed Iraq had, and not the WMDs for which this country went to war."'
Posted by: Blah at June 22, 2006 04:22 PM (jFIp4)
9
Mustard gas and several of the binary nerve agents such as those in shells could easly be reused. I wonder why the pentagon is lying about this. Infact mustard gas from WW1 was still messing people up in Ypres France in the 90's.
Posted by: lip at June 22, 2006 05:27 PM (EJHD4)
10
The only way certain people will believe their eyes is when gobs of people die in a massive gas attack in some fast food resturant and it becomes all so real, while people run for their lives and turn rush hour into a riot, then the people will demand that we nuke Saudi Arabia or demand Osama bin Laden surrender or we go back to cold war status with the Russians.
It all began with Reagan saying 'Tear Down this wall " to Gorbachev.
Heh heh..
Liberals, why I won't ever vote Democrat again.
Posted by: GOPLad at June 22, 2006 07:52 PM (NkWuA)
11
the chemical weapons were not in useable conditions
Yea, binaries are like that -- gotta mix'em first...and that only happens in flight.
They weren't being shot out of cannon, ergo they weren't "usable". Perfect tautological moonbat logic.
Posted by: Purple Avenger at June 24, 2006 04:04 PM (M0Kdm)
12
I honestly believe that our media should be OBLIGATED to report honestly and fairly. I feel that the finding of these weapons were just swept under the carpet by the US media which proves BIAS and that we cannot TRUST anything that they report. God pray for us... we need the freedom of speech but we need to know the truth and facts if we can't trust our media to do this... what is to become of us... will our government begin having to control the media like other communist and dictatorship countries?
Posted by: LP at July 06, 2006 09:26 AM (JDV0e)
Hide Comments
| Add Comment
June 21, 2006
Jeep Jihadi to Plead Guilty
Via the News & Observer:
The man accused of driving a rented SUV onto the UNC campus in March and striking nine people told a judge he plans to plead guilty to the charges against him.
Mohammed Taheri-Azar entered the courtroom this morning to ask that he be allowed to represent himself. A judge had ordered the public defender's office to work with him while it was determined whether he was competent.
But after being told he would have to submit to a psychiatric evaluation in order to do that, the 23-year-old said he would rather keep his court-appointed lawyer.
Taheri-Azar told Superior Court Judge Carl Fox he had met a few times with the psychiatrist and psychologist and "they don't appear to be very good psychologists and psychiatrists in my oinion[sic]."
Taheri-Azar has said in letters and in a 911 call that he wanted to kill people to avenge Muslim deaths around the world when he drove a rented SUV through The Pit, the main gathering spot on the UNC-Chapel Hill campus, March 3.
Do you think UNC-Chapel Hill will finally admit this was a homegrown Islamic terrorist attack?
Me neither.
Update: I've been told that it isn't unusual for Carolina graduates to refuse psychological evaluations, so perhaps we shouldn't read too much into that part of the story.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
12:26 PM
| Comments (5)
| Add Comment
| Trackbacks (Suck)
1
If UNC students hadn't once talked about how bad Osama was, this young "freedom fighter" wouldn't have felt the need to run down other UNC students.
USA OUT OF UNC! NO BLOOD FOR EDUCATION!
Idiots!
Posted by: MCPO Airdale at June 21, 2006 12:44 PM (3nKvy)
2
Why do we grant visas to people who openly hate our way of life?
Posted by: Tom TB at June 21, 2006 01:11 PM (y6n8O)
3
Why do we grant visas to people who openly hate our way of life?
Because the State Department is reponsible for granting visas, and State hates our way of life, too.
Posted by: Robert Crawford at June 21, 2006 01:38 PM (1j9aH)
4
A look at how much the left lamented the 'murder' of Zarqawi alone tells all.
This tell us all we need to know.
Posted by: Toog at June 21, 2006 03:18 PM (IJedl)
5
A muslim retard in a see of retards!
Posted by: John Travolta at June 21, 2006 05:49 PM (Vtwo9)
Hide Comments
| Add Comment
Higher Ground
When I came across this comment by Markos "Kos" Moulitsas via LGF, I was momentarily speechless:
There's a reason the Geneva Conventions exist. We've lost the moral high ground. What a fucking waste of a war.
Note I said, "momentarily."
You would think that Kos, as an Army veteran and a graduate of the Boston University School of Law, might have the inkling that what he states above is incorrect.
After all, the Geneva Convention was written to protect soldiers, militiamen, and civilians, not terrorists. As a matter of specific fact, groups such as terrorists seem specifically exempted from
Geneva's protections [my bold]:
- Articles 1 and 2 cover which parties are bound by GCIII
- Article 2 specifies when the parties are bound by GCIII
- That any armed conflict between two or more "High Contracting Parties" is covered by GCIII;
- That it applies to occupations of a "High Contracting Party";
- That the relationship between the "High Contracting Parties" and a non-signatory, the party will remain bound until the non-signatory no longer acts under the strictures of the convention. "...Although one of the Powers in conflict may not be a party to the present Convention, the Powers who are parties thereto shall remain bound by it in their mutual relations. They shall furthermore be bound by the Convention in relation to the said Power, if the latter accepts and applies the provisions thereof."
- Article 3 covers internal armed conflict (not of an international character) and it provides similar protections for combatants as those described in the rest of this document for a prisoner of war. That Persons taking no active part in the hostilities, including POWs; shall in all circumstances be treated humanely. It also lays out some basic rules for the treatment of all people combatants and non-combatants alike. Article 3 also states that parties to the internal conflict should endeavour to bring into force, by means of special agreements, all or part of the other provisions of GCIII.
- Article 4 covers all conflicts not covered by Article 3 which are all conflicts of an international character. It defines prisoners of war to include:
- 4.1.1 Members of the armed forces of a Party to the conflict and members of militias of such armed forces
- 4.1.2 Members of other militias and members of other volunteer corps, including those of organized resistance movements, provided that they fulfill all of the following conditions:
- that of being commanded by a person responsible for his subordinates;
- that of having a fixed distinctive sign recognizable at a distance (there are limited exceptions to this among countries who observe the 1977 Protocol I);
- that of carrying arms openly;
- that of conducting their operations in accordance with the laws and customs of war.
- 4.1.3 Members of regular armed forces who profess allegiance to a government or an authority not recognized by the Detaining Power.
- 4.1.4 Civilians who have non-combat support roles with the military and who carry a vaild identity card issued by the military they support.
- 4.1.5 Merchant marine and the crews of civil aircraft of the Parties to the conflict, who do not benefit by more favourable treatment under any other provisions of international law.
- 4.1.6 Inhabitants of a non-occupied territory, who on the approach of the enemy spontaneously take up arms to resist the invading forces, without having had time to form themselves into regular armed units, provided they carry arms openly and respect the laws and customs of war.
- 4.3 makes explicit that Article 33 takes precedence for the treatment of medical personnel of the enemy and chaplains of the enemy.
At
no point in the section above are terrorists granted protection by the Geneva Convention. Article 4.1.2 stipulates that groups to be granted Geneva rights as "militias or other volunteer corps" must fulfill "
all of the following conditions."
- that of being commanded by a person responsible for his subordinates;
- that of having a fixed distinctive sign recognizable at a distance (there are limited exceptions to this among countries who observe the 1977 Protocol I);
- that of carrying arms openly;
- that of conducting their operations in accordance with the laws and customs of war.
Islamic terrorists, under the guise of al Qaeda or the insurgent Mujahedeen Shura Council, have never, at any point in the war, fulfilled these required four conditions, and very rarely meet even one. By definition, they are therefore exempted from Geneva's protections, and can be—quite legally—shot on sight.
As Jonah Goldberg
notes:
We've all seen countless WWII movies about how soldiers out of uniform can be shot as spies under the Geneva Convention. Well, all of al Qaeda's soldiers are spies. And they most emphatically do not provide their prisoners with ping-pong tables and dormitories. They cut off their heads and put the pictures on the Internet and TV. The same goes for Osama's allies and fellow travelers in Iraq.
The liberal punditocracy seems to think it's an obvious fact that the Geneva Convention should apply to the war on terrorism, even though the plain text of the Geneva Convention applies as much to the war on terror as it does to the battle between the Federation and the Klingon Empire.
By hiding among civilians, torturing and beheading captives, and acting like, well,
terrorists, these people have,
by their own actions, exempted themselves from Geneva's protections.
Kos states and apparently believes "we have lost the moral high ground" to the kind of barbarians who torture, mutilate, and kill their captives. This is the same Kos that said of American contractors killed, mutilate, burned and then hung from a bridge in Fallujah, "
screw them."
It seems to me that Markos Moulitsas is the last person to be lecturing others about ground clearly so far above his reach.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
11:11 AM
| Comments (5)
| Add Comment
| Trackbacks (Suck)
1
In 1944, during the battle of the bulge, German soldiers dressed in U.S. uniforms and driving captured jeeps tried to get past check points. All who were caught were executed immediately, same as soldiers in civilian dress. No Amnesty International, no Gitmo.
Posted by: Tom TB at June 21, 2006 01:38 PM (y6n8O)
2
"We've all seen countless WWII movies..."
No, I think that might be the problem.
I don't think most people have seen these movies. I don't think most people have even a movie-superficial understanding of WWII history, much less a true historical perspective. Only the vaguest sketch is taught in public schools.
Alright, I admit it, I haven't even seen many WWII movies, unless you count the Pearl Harbor movie with Ben Afflick.
Posted by: Amber at June 21, 2006 09:12 PM (WYkdt)
3
The UN issued a report in February titled "Situation of detainees at Guantánamo Bay."
Report located here:
http://www.globalsecurity.org/security/library/report/2006/guantanamo-detainees-report_un_060216.htm
The press covered the report and it's calls for the US to close Gitmo. What the press seems to have missed was this important note by the Chairperson of the working group that made the report:
"The Chairperson of the Working Group and the Special Rapporteur note that, while United States Armed Forces continue to be engaged in combat operations in Afghanistan as well as in other countries, they are not currently engaged in an international armed conflict between two Parties to the Third (POWs) and Fourth (civilians) Geneva Conventions. (B. 24 of the report)
In other words, the Geneva Conventions do not apply to these criminals, even if they meet all conditions of the Convention.
Posted by: Fred Fry at June 22, 2006 10:10 AM (JXdhy)
4
Everyone should watch Sargeant York (Gary Cooper) and Patton (George C. Scott). There are many more, but these two films say more about who we are and what we stand for when war becomes necessary than most. The war journal of Alvin York is available on line, as well--a remarkable, edifying read.
Posted by: AyUaxe at June 22, 2006 10:38 AM (Pp2XL)
5
My blogging partner, Old soldier, linked to you on his latest post because he admired it. You have hit the nail on the head here, especially with the comment that "it seems to me that Markos Maulitsas is the lasts person to be lecturing others about ground clearly so far above his reach." Exactly!
Posted by: Gayle at June 22, 2006 09:26 PM (dkZlV)
Hide Comments
| Add Comment
Murtha's Haditha Cover-Up Story Exposed As A Lie
At least one part of Congressman John Murtha's Haditha story has now been conclusively debunked.
Murtha had maintained that the incident that culminated in the deaths of up to 24 Iraqi civilians at the hands of Marines after a fatal convoy ambush
had been covered up:
Mr Murtha, himself a former Marine, charged that US military authorities had paid compensation to the families of the victims, indicating they had assumed responsibility for the deaths. "They paid people $1,500 to $2,500. This doesn't happen unless it comes at the highest authority," Mr Murtha told CNN.
Asked if he meant victims' compensation, Mr Murtha said: "Yes. And that doesn't happen ... if it's an explosive device."
Mr Murtha repeated his accusation that the Marines had sought to cover up the killings."This is what worries me. We're fighting a war about America's ideals and democracy's ideas and something like this happens, they try to cover it up," he said. "It is as bad as Abu Ghraib, if not worse."
An independent Army General who investigated the charges of a cover-up has completed his report, and
concludes otherwise:
The general charged with investigating whether Marines tried to cover up the killing of 24 civilians in Haditha has completed his report, finding that Marine officers failed to ask the right questions, an official close to the investigation said Friday.
Nothing in the report points to a "knowing cover-up" of the facts by the officers supervising the Marines involved in the November incident, the official said. Rather, he said, officers from the company level through the staff of the 2nd Marine Expeditionary Force in Baghdad failed to demand "a thorough explanation" of what happened in Haditha.
I imagine many netroots liberals reading this account published in the
L.A. Times will immediately dismiss the report as a whitewash, saying that though an
Army General investigated a
Marine incident, it is still a military cover-up.
But never fear. They
still support the troops.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
09:30 AM
| Comments (6)
| Add Comment
| Trackbacks (Suck)
1
Go to the local papers in Murtha's district (PA-12) and you will see none of this. The liberal editors ensure that anything that embaraasses "Fat Jack" is neither seen nor heard by the sheeple that vote for him.
Posted by: MCPO Airdale at June 21, 2006 10:04 AM (3nKvy)
2
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060621/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq Saddams 3rd LAWYER KILLED!!!
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060621/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq_abduction_3 85 Iraqis kidnapped from work!!!
We just about have a peaceful stable democracy with respect for the rule of law!!!! Well maybe next decade....after we spend another $15000 per Iraqi!!!!
Hero Jack
Posted by: Murtha at June 21, 2006 11:15 AM (vrOoK)
3
I'm not a Murtha fan, nor do I claim the Marines are guilty of anything, but the Army general's report doesn't prove there wasn't a coverup on the part of the Marines.
A coverup can consist of steps taken to hide evidence, but it can also consist of failing to take action, the result of which results in the evidence remaining hidden from view. It doesn't stretch the imagination to think that quite often (in the military, as well as in general) questions aren't asked because the questioner doesn't really want to hear a truthful answer... and because the questioner doesn't want to put the person(s) being questioned in a position where they lie.
Posted by: steve sturm at June 21, 2006 11:44 AM (bZSI1)
4
grantman - If people like you had their way, we would have lost WWII after the fall of the Phillipines and Singapore.
Posted by: MCPO Airdale at June 21, 2006 12:47 PM (3nKvy)
5
Mcpo Airdale,
If people like you had your way we would STILL be bogged down in Viet Nam and bankrupt as a nation. After 4 years we were not losing in the Phillipines. Dec 7 1941 Dec 7 1945...The war was over we had won!!!! After 4 years in this war under this leadership, we have created enemies faster than we have killed them.
If everything in your world translates to WW2 (doubtful analogy to today)I'll bite. I would stop complaining for a year if: ANYONE IN THIS ADMIN HAD THE COURAGE OF DDE, who in the run up to d-day famously wrote two letters 1.IF IT suceeded congratulating everbody blah blah 2. IF IT FAILED...he was resigning his command immediatly!!! Even the biggest admin backer must admit that there has been plenty of underacheivment and miscalculation but yet accountiblity!!! ....just "medals of freedom" for the people who screwed up the worst. Who pays the price ...just the taxpayers and the troops.
Posted by: grantman at June 21, 2006 09:46 PM (QRIdq)
6
Grantman - Write me back when you become one of, "the troops". 2003 -2006 isn't 4 years in my universe but, then again, I don't know where you live.
The main problem in concluding this conflict are the restrictive ROE imposed on the troops (that's Rules of Engagement grantman). Additionally, martial law should be declared within the Sunni Triangle with "shoot to kill" orders after curfew. Those are just my suggestions but, Yeah, nobody asked me.
Posted by: MCPO Airdale at June 22, 2006 04:20 PM (3nKvy)
Hide Comments
| Add Comment
Flags
Some have more meaning than others.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
08:12 AM
| Comments (1)
| Add Comment
| Trackbacks (Suck)
June 20, 2006
False Equivalation
Will all the liberals out there equivalating how Americans treat captured terrorists with how terrorists treat those unlucky souls they capture, please take the time to remind me when that last time was American soldiers did anything like this:
The bodies of two U.S. soldiers found in Iraq Monday night were mutilated and booby-trapped, military sources said Tuesday.
Pfc. Kristian Menchaca and Pfc. Thomas L. Tucker went missing after a Friday attack on a traffic control checkpoint in Yusufiya, 12 miles (20 km) south of Baghdad.
The sources said the two men had suffered severe trauma.
The bodies also had been desecrated, and a visual identification was impossible -- part of the reason DNA testing was being conducted to verify their identities, the sources said.
A tip from Iraqi civilians led officials to the bodies, military sources told CNN. The discovery was made about 7:30 p.m. Monday.
Not only were the bodies booby-trapped, but homemade bombs also lined the road leading to the victims, an apparent effort to complicate recovery efforts and target recovery teams, the sources said.
It took troops 12 hours to clear the area of roadside bombs. One of the bombs exploded, but there were no injuries.
The terrorists captured two of our men, and what steps did they take?
The did not take them to a tropical island where captives are so well fed that
almost all gain weight. Nor were they forced to put womens underwear on their heads, and they did not have fake blood thrown at them, or pull other fraternity/reality TV-grade tricks.
But I don't here liberals complaining about the actions of the terrorists, and how uncomfortable it must be for those captured by terrorists to be mauled with a power drill, or scorched with acetylene torches, or castrated, or beheaded, or hung, dangling from meat hooks while still alive, or raped with found objects.
No, the left can bear to shed no real, heart-felt words of sympathy, and they drop crocodile tears as they quickly use this occasion to bash both the Adminstration and the troops.
If we treat terrorists like anything other than privileged dinner guests it is torture by their sophomoric definition, and it's the President's fault. If terrorists, in turn, perform unspeakable acts of barbarity on our soldiers, it's still the President's fault.
Nothing is ever the fault of the terrorists, and the United States is never, ever in the right.
Do I question their patriotism?
No.
Where they stand is abundantly clear.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
03:11 PM
| Comments (29)
| Add Comment
| Trackbacks (Suck)
1
You consider being held in Guantanamo as being on a tropical island? Technically you're right, Cuba is a tropical island. The prisoner's can't enjoy it though, as they are locked up. Nice try though.
You are also right that the terrorists who killed the soldiers are ultimately the ones at fault.
But you are wrong in accusing all liberals of not being sympathetic to the soldiers. Why? Because you are using what is called a "strawman". A mythical liberal figure that you invented, and has no bearing on what real liberal people believe.
Depending on where you live, maybe you should actually try to meet some real people who have left of center beliefs, even if they aren't radical leftists. You may be surprised in their mainstream beliefs.
Jaxebast
Jaxebast
Posted by: Jaxebad at June 20, 2006 03:24 PM (qudJu)
2
Of course people, I use that word loosely, are locked up at GITMO. Where were our soldiers locked up and tortured at, probably some rat whole of a place. I am sure they did not enjoy any kind of a special meal, I am sure they were not given a Holy Bible and allowed to pray if they wanted before they were tortured and killed. I have been very upset about this today and I do not care what we have to do to get the job done just do it. I guess Al Quaida will prosecute and shackle these guys that did this because of the Geneva convention. And our liberal left Kennedy gets upset about underwear and a dog. How long will it take him to get these pictures of our Heroes and stand before the American people and wave his hand and shout that this should not be done. I reckon when hell freezes over. I am sick of the media and I am sick of liberals. Just turn our troops loose, they can handle the job.
Posted by: Kay at June 20, 2006 05:46 PM (y6n8O)
3
Jaxebast - Tell it to Murtha, Reid, Kennedy, Durbin and Kerry. These are the leaders of your left of center party.
They call American soldiers terrorists, say that, ". . .the torture chambers of Abu Ghrab is under new, American management", that American Marines are "cold-blodded murderers" and that American interrogation was akin to Nazis. They lie and their acolytes on the left eat it like cake.
The left rationalizes real torture and beheadings by repeating the lies of YOUR leaders.
Posted by: MCPO Airdale at June 20, 2006 05:49 PM (3nKvy)
4
And the "left" PC crowd wants a moral, ethical US military to engage the enemy with no colateral damage, and they want the Geneva Accords Articles of War extended to these sub-humans. I say it is time the military takes the stick out of their eye (the one placed there by the PC "left"), sticks that stick up the PC "left's" a$$ and moves out smartly treating the enemy with the same regard they have shown our men.
Posted by: Old Soldier at June 20, 2006 07:43 PM (owAN1)
5
Old Soldier: Are you aware that in advocating a "gloves off" approach to dealing with terrorists you are endorsing a military strategy last seen in the abject failure that was the French experience in Algiers? The French employed an extensive torture policy against members of Algeria's National Liberation Front, and it totally backfired, turning the entire civiliain population against them. That's why the Pentagon screened the film The Battle of Algiers in 2003, with a flyer that said:
"How to win a battle against terrorism and lose the war of ideas. Children shoot soldiers at point-blank range. Women plant bombs in cafes. Soon the entire Arab population builds to a mad fervor. Sound familiar? The French have a plan. It succeeds tactically, but fails strategically. To understand why, come to a rare showing of this film." (See the Wikipedia entry for Battle of Algiers)
Google the name Paul Aussaresses, the French general in charge of intelligence during the Algerian war, and you will see that in a 60 Minutes interview in 2000 he still defends torture as a tactic is warfare, and recommends torturing Al-Queda. Do you really want the American military to follow not just a French military strategy, but a French military strategy that failed?
Posted by: Nate at June 20, 2006 08:07 PM (UlkGh)
6
MCPO,
Care to attribute those accusations? Or do you just have personal vendettas against all of these senators?
For that matter, what do you think of Joe Lieberman, who also (despite popular misconceptions) has a very liberal voting record?
Posted by: Jaxebad at June 20, 2006 08:52 PM (qudJu)
7
OS:
I assume you consider George Washington part of the "PC Left", from his quotation "Treat them with humanity, and let them have no reason to complain of our copying the brutal example of the British army in their treatment of our unfortunate brethren." Interestingly enough, his advice paid off, as many of the said soldiers (from Germany) ended up becoming American citizens after the War.
If that's PC Leftism, I'm proud to be part of that tradition.
Posted by: Jaxebad at June 20, 2006 09:05 PM (qudJu)
8
Why on God's green earth does the torture of two American boys remind you of "the left"? Can you not make your own decisions, as opposed to reacting to everything you consider "the left"?
I've never in my life known anyone who hated America or who approves of the death of American armed servicemen. I don't deny that such people exist, but they are freaks.
You all are enchanted by a bogeyman that O'Reilly, Coulter and Limbaugh describe to you. You are tilting at windmills.
You say you want to let our servicemen "finish the job". What do you mean? Get more aggressive? How can you be so naive as to think that when our servicemen kill cousins and brothers and husbands that their survivors will not be inclined to turn against us?
Wolfowitz said "There is no history of ethnic strife in Iraq". Bush said "Mission accomplished" in 2003. The war was predicated on WMD which didn't exist, and now you all are happy to pretend that spreading democracy was the goal all along.
It's clear that a lot of you just want revenge. Personally, I'd like the Iraqis to have a democracy, but to be honest it's not that high a priority. I'd like the innumerable dictatorships in Africa to be democracies too, but as a conservative I don't believe in nation building. Do you?
Another thing, if you disbelieve the MSM, then how about the Iraqi Prime Minister? Here's what he has to say, and it's awful: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/opinions/graphics/iraqdocs_061606.pdf.
Please, tell me what is the good news that the MSM is hiding from us.
I mourn for those boys. Did they die trying to root out terrorists? Then we will have failed them, because as I said the more Iraqis we kill, the more angry survivors we create. Did they die trying to set up a democracy in Iraq? In that case we failed them too. Civil strife has been heating up in that country for years, and it's coming to a boil. The Shia and Sunnis are killing eachother in Mosques, with drills, in assassinations every day. What chance is there for these people to trust eachother and form a government?
I mourn for America too, because we failed those boys. We sent them to die far away from home, for a lie, in a conflict that has no goal.
Posted by: Cyrus McElderry at June 21, 2006 12:47 AM (DixoE)
9
Who kicked over the rock and let all the hippies out?
Posted by: bob at June 21, 2006 02:52 AM (YTjdv)
10
Cyrus,
I can't speak for everyone but here is how I see it. The most vocal opponents of the war are on the "Left" and they get almost all of the air time in the news. The center sees mostly what the 'Left' media wants them to see. Fox is quoted as a right news station, that's the only one so the majority of news is anti-war, anti-Bush, and almost anti-American in nature. I am tired of the negative portrayal of America. These news channels are watched world wide and it has affected greatly how the world views us.
By their own documents, we are WINNING the ground war, but losing the PR war. Why?
We win every major engagement and almost every minor engagement, but people think we are losing. Why?
We have one of the lowest loss record of any war but people think it's comparable to Viet-Nam. Why?
We have politicians screaming to cut and run, pull out now, but when put to a vote it is trounced. Why?
Answer, all for the Press. Press has a lot of control over public opinion.
War is a terrible thing, young men and women dying is horrible. Setting up a stable democracy in that region will be invaluable as far as history is concerned. Is the price worth it?
Is freedom? When the little girls are allowed to get their diplomas, graduate and get a job without the requirement of a man, they may believe so.
Is Democracy? When the people can go to the poles and vote, actually voting in a candidate without thugs and guns pointed at them, they may believe so.
A more stable world? Democracy will spread in that region once rooted. Dictatorships are one voice telling the country what is good for them, Democracy is the voice of the people. Which is better?
We had help in our Revolutionary war, we helped others in WW1, WWII, Korea, and Viet Nam.
Don't the Iraqi deserve a chance at freedom? Shouldn't they have our help?
Posted by: Retired Navy at June 21, 2006 05:37 AM (elhVA)
11
Nate, do not be so presumptuous as to interpolate what I advocate. Your comment is predicated upon a false supposition.
Jaxebad, assume all you want, but do not put words into my mouth or presume anything on my behalf.
Cyrus, ”Why on God's green earth does the torture of two American boys remind you of "the left"?” Perhaps it is because Kennedy stated that Saddam’s torture chambers have new owners – the US military; Durbin likened the Guantanamo guards to Nazis; Kerry accuses the military of midnight terrorism of women and children; Murtha levels accusations of cold blooded murder. Who defines Iraq as “we’re losing”? Who defines Iraq as a “quagmire”? Who advocates for immediate withdrawal? Who labels radical Islamic terrorists as “freedom fighters”? Answer those questions and you answer your own question.
So there is no misunderstanding, interpolation, supposition or assumptions, I shall be as clear as I know how. I do not advocate torture – for the most part it is counterproductive. I do not advocate revenge – it is predicated upon anger, and anger will get you killed on the battlefield.
What I do advocate is letting the military be the orchestrators of operations; let them exploit the weaknesses of our self-declared enemy. We should not cater to our enemy in any shape fashion of form – like providing Qur’ans, prayer mats and religiously correct meals to prisoners of war. For crying out loud, we will avoid attacking and damaging a mosque when we know terrorists are using them. If they wish to disregard their own holy places, why should we extend that courtesy to them? It becomes an advantage for the terrorists.
When I state, “Move out smartly treating the enemy with the same regard they have shown our men,” I mean to remove the PC handcuffs from our commanders. Let them prosecute this war as a war, not a game of chess. We have the finest, best trained and equipped force to ever be fielded by America. Our military has never doctrinally been anything less than moral and ethical on and off the battlefield. For anyone to even imply such is absurd. Those who have not served yet sit in the comfort of their living room and Monday morning quarterback our military are dispicable.
Posted by: Old Soldier at June 21, 2006 06:56 AM (X2tAw)
12
"Why on God's green earth does the torture of two American boys remind you of "the left"?"
One more reason...
Left Thoughts
Posted by: Old Soldier at June 21, 2006 07:15 AM (X2tAw)
13
Cyrus and Jaxebad,
While I believe that there are centrist democrats, the party has been taken over by leftists, and rabid ones at that. They portray every move of our country as evil; every move of Bush as a lie; and blame Bush for everything.
My suggestion to you if you do not like being grouped in with such ilk, GET CONTROL OF YOUR OWN PARTY. Quite rolling around in your own rhetoric and do something other than complain that you are all being tarred and feathered with a broad brush. Move your party back to the center and maybe, just maybe, people will see what many of you stand for. Right now all we hear is the SOROS and VIPS pushed agendas of the far left, and that is not doing you any good whatsoever.
BTW - as to Lieberman. Check this out.
Posted by: Specter at June 21, 2006 07:50 AM (ybfXM)
14
When are the people on the LEFT going to realize that you cannot be PC with a group of people that don't even know the meaning of humane. Also why does the left think there were no weapons of mass destruction? I know of and have seen photos of chemical labs and weapons caches that have the ability to produce poision gas. They had plenty of time to move and hide there weapons and weapons programs. Syria has Saddam's weapons, they were the only country that Saddam trusted. Why do you think that even today there are bathist undercover death squads operating out of Syria abducting and killing Iraqi's in Jordan. They are trying to silence anyone that can tie the regime to the weapons. Cyrus, this is a just war, Saddam had ties to AQ, he was funding suicide bombers in Palistine, was helping fund Hamas. Use your common sense, think about it for a second. Helping Hamas blow up innocent Israeli's that would take the attention away from him. He was using the Palistinians as guinea pigs to further his own agenda. Those folks that are committing all these atrocities in Iraq most are not Iraqi's. Instead of condemming this war, try helping. I am at a loss for words. How can the Far Left (that controls the Dem. party.) fathom that if we leave Iraq and retreat into our borders that all the killings and beheadings will stop. We need to fight to WIN. I am in total agreement with O.S. & R.N. We have the finest Military in the world and its people on the Left and the Drive-By Media that is getting our boys killed. If you can't say anything good, don't say anything at all. They help fuel the insurgency with there Anti-American and Anti-war rhetoric. The Demorcratic party has No vision, No plan and No spine. They just want to be in control.... At any cost.
Posted by: Faithful Patriot at June 21, 2006 09:32 AM (elhVA)
15
Old Soldier: Considering the original CY post was about the barbaric torture of two American soldiers, and your reponse was that it's time the military "moves out smartly treating the enemy with the same regard they have shown our men", it isn't "interpolation" or "false supposition" to assume you are advocating torture. It's the logical inference that flows from your comment and its context, and if that wasn't what you intended to say you should have been more precise in your language.
You say: "Let them prosecute this war as a war, not a game of chess."
This is a legitimate view, but not one that is especially compelling at this point in time. The other day I saw two former Marine generals interviewed about Iraq, and when both were asked point-blank: "What should we be doing militarily different right now?" they both answered the same: "Nothing- moving forward requires a political solution at this point in time." When in a discussion of military tactics you address only the military component of this war, and neglect the political elements (and potential political fall-out of things like bombings Mosques), you come off as uninformed that the battlefield has changed.
"We have the finest, best trained and equipped force to ever be fielded by America."
Agreed.
"Our military has never doctrinally been anything less than moral and ethical on and off the battlefield. For anyone to even imply such is absurd."
Wrong. I'll get you evidence if you want. The new doctrine established by Rumsfeld, Cheney, etc. clearly takes the gloves off and allows for things like waterboarding and other clear torture. This isn't the fault of our troops, it is the fault of an executive branch subverting the traditional military doctrine that has worked since George Washington.
"For anyone to even imply such is absurd. Those who have not served yet sit in the comfort of their living room and Monday morning quarterback our military are dispicable."
Why do you vets here come out with your service as a trump card in any debate? What does that have to do with anything? And are we to infer that those who don't serve in the military have no right to voice their opinion on military matters? What next: those who haven't played baseball can't criticize the local manager? Those who haven't been a news reporter in Iraq can't criticize the coverage about Iraq? I don't think you want to go there.
Posted by: Nate at June 21, 2006 10:24 AM (UlkGh)
16
We should treat people better.....we are americans!!!!
Posted by: centrist at June 21, 2006 10:24 AM (vrOoK)
17
Nate, it's because Monday Morning Quarterbacks like yourself that have never worn the uniform nor would put it on if your life depended on it who make statements such as the one you posted "Why do you vets here come out with your service as a trump card in any debate?" Because we have "been there done that". Vets are the subject matter experts unless you served you can only bloviate and potificate. You made a comparison to sports, this is not a game. I served my counrty and still serve her today. I and like the rest of my fellow Veterans are proud of our service and we respect our brethren. You know the ones that came before us who died and continue to die for the likes of you who question our Honor, Beliefs and our Patriotism. Murtha and Kerry put their own political ambitions ahead of what was right and just. The left always wants to invoke Vietnam. You forget or choose not to recognize the fact that the left were the ones who would not recognize the Vets when they came home, spit on them and called them "Baby Killers." One of those was Kerry, he was a traitor. He had no right to speak for the Vets nor the right to testify to the so called atrocities that he supposedly witnessed. He wrote himself up for the Three Purple Hearts, used the system to get back to the states to start his political career. Why does he not sign the form 180 releasing his record? Because it will show his B.S. record. Murtha was in the rear with the gear. Freedom Isn't Free. I can only wish liberals would realize that.
Posted by: Faithful Patriot at June 21, 2006 11:10 AM (elhVA)
18
Nate,
I don't use my service as a trump card. I only speak of my experience, that I use as a trump card. I don't talk ground war tactics because I didn't live that. I do know that bad press is a let down for the folks in uniform, I lived that. I know for a fact that when I was in a different country and some politician or other spouted crap out of the corner of his mouth about that country, or our country's dealings with them, that it made things really tense for us there, I lived that.
My service was just that, my service. My knowledge, take or leave it, is from what I lived.
Posted by: Retired Navy at June 21, 2006 11:19 AM (elhVA)
19
FYI,
GrantMan/Murtha/Centrist has just had his IP banned for "sock-puppeting."
For those of you not familiar with the term, sock-puppeting is the practice of duplicitously posting under multiple screen names. LA Times columnist/blogger Michael Hiltzik recently lost his blog (though not his column) for the same practice, which is roughly defined as "using pseudonyms to bolster his own opinions and belittle those of his detractors."
I do not mind people using anonymous identities or pseudonyms as most posters here do, but I do not condone and will strongly lash out against those who abuse the capability to build strawmen posters who support their views.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at June 21, 2006 11:33 AM (g5Nba)
20
Specter,
Here's the thing.
I don't think the Democratic Party has been taken over by "rabid leftists". Harry Reid sure isn't one. Seeing as how the party is actively recruiting centrists like Bob Casey for the Senate, and is supporting Lieberman in his primary bid, I think it's quite clear that the party is not moving leftwards at this time.
So when conservative blogggers think that Reid, Kerry, Rahm Emanuel, et al. are part of the "rabid left", and keep confusing the DNC and the DLC, it's due to the fact that they are oblivious to the nature of the Democratic Party. If they had someone like Dennis Kucinich in mind, that may be more accurate (though I wouldn't call him "rabid", as that's just a crass insult, he is definitely classified as "hard left"). Of course, he isn't a party leader.
As this relates to the war in Iraq, the result is that there is still quite a bit of disagreement in the party. I'm still hesistant towards the idea of immediate redeployment, but it is at least an alternative idea, as opposed to the vague "stay the course" maxim. And it sure as heck is more supportive of the troops than the idea of pardoning their killers, which some GOP Senators are in favor of.
Posted by: Jaxebad at June 21, 2006 11:53 AM (qudJu)
21
Jaxebad,
Let's see...Kerry has posted at KOS. I guess he doesn't embrace the left. Howard Dean is the leader of the DNC. He doesn't embrace the far left either I suppose - as calm and rational as he always is. Murtha calls for withdrawal...and gets banged for it. Murtha hangs with Code Pink - the group who sent money to the Iraqi "freedom fighters" and protest the war in sight of Bethesda. Left. Reid demonizes republicans for abramoff even though he took $68K. Jefferson gets caught with $90K "cold cash" in his possession, but doesn't take the high road of stepping down. Kerry calls for withdrawal by the end of the year and gets shot down. All far left postitions. Sorry...take back your own party.
Posted by: Specter at June 21, 2006 12:45 PM (ybfXM)
22
I don't think voicing dissent about the war or our military's conduct of the war undermines the morale of the troops. It was perfectly appropriate for Bush to criticize our deployment of troops in the Balkans, and it is appropriate for those who see fit to criticize the deployment of troops in Iraq. The places where it isn't cool to express discontent the concerning the military or a war are places I don't want to live. (China, North Korea, Iran)
Military service can bring much-needed context to a discussion, but it in no way substitutes for sound reasoning. My dad, step-dad, several uncles, and both grandfathers served in the military, and not once in the many discussions over the years about wars past and present did any one of them present their service as something that gave their view more weight than those family members who didn't serve.
Specifically regarding my dad, there were two things that really bothered him when he was out in the field in Vietnam:
1) That back home most people seemed to go about their ordinary lives as though a war wasn't even going on.
2) That the particular military strategy he was involved in of walking out in the jungle waiting to draw enemy fire so they could radio the planes where to bomb- SUCKED!
Both of these things bothered him more than people criticizing the war, and you could even say that the protesters understood these issues better than anyone else.
Posted by: Nate at June 21, 2006 01:42 PM (UlkGh)
23
Nate, why don’t you stop while you are behind? Even after I submit a clarifying comment you still argue supposition based upon assumption no less. Not a healthy position from which to debate.
As for the running of the war, I defer to the commanders on the ground. They have the current pulse and plan ops accordingly. My comment about taking the gloves off is stimulated by returning officers who continue to complain about unrealistic constrains precipitated by the PC crowd back home, not by the indigenous political environment in Iraq.
”Wrong. I'll get you evidence if you want. The new doctrine established by Rumsfeld, Cheney, etc. clearly takes the gloves off and allows for things like waterboarding and other clear torture.”
Get off your damned moral soap box before you fall and hurt yourself. Privates Tucker and Menchaca suffered torture. Was that okay, because the terrorists never fought under the command of Washington? Do you place “waterboarding” in the same category as the torture administered by the radical Islamic terrorists?
”Why do you vets here come out with your service as a trump card in any debate? What does that have to do with anything?” Obviously, it means nothing to you. Spend 31 years walking in my shoes and then come back and ask that question.
Posted by: Old Soldier at June 21, 2006 02:07 PM (X2tAw)
24
Well Nate,
My nephew and my brother in law just returned from Iraq, they both told me that the negative press and the constant brow-beating that is happening to the military is a big morale let-down to the troops over there. They also said that it does in fact make the terrorists more bold. They are now playing to the press, not to win.
That's this war, not those in the past I am talking about.
Here is an interesting column you may like (or not)
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/06/18/AR2006061800900.html
No matter what we do as a nation, we will not be liked by all.
Shouldn't we stick to gether as a nation though? There are bad guys out there and they don't like us.
Posted by: Retired Navy at June 21, 2006 02:09 PM (y67bA)
25
”I don't think voicing dissent about the war or our military's conduct of the war undermines the morale of the troops.”
Wrong. Ask Faithful Patriot.
”Military service can bring much-needed context to a discussion, but it in no way substitutes for sound reasoning.”
When the subject is the military it is the voice of reason.
”My dad, step-dad, several uncles, and both grandfathers served in the military…”
Thank them for their service and remember it is their service, not yours. You’ve gained no ground.
Great, you’ve got your father’s thoughts on Vietnam; would you like mine? I’ll offer this much, one of my takes on the Vietnam War is that the protesters didn’t understand jack. They carelessly and needlessly threw away the meaning of 55,000 soldiers’ deaths. I also didn’t appreciate my uniform being spat upon and being called a baby killed. You’ve got a lot to learn, but with a closed mind you’ll miss out.
Posted by: Old Soldier at June 21, 2006 02:19 PM (X2tAw)
26
Old Soldier, I don't think he will ever get it. Unfortunately, there are too many like him in this day and age.
Posted by: Retired Navy at June 21, 2006 05:58 PM (uPytR)
27
Okay, let's pull back for a moment.
Retired Navy: I don't doubt that it's tough to be a soldier over there right now, and that it would be preferable to have a united country at one's back. But life doesn't work out perfectly, and I think that it is better to have a divided country debating it's way towards a strategy that will work rather than have a country united behind a failed strategy.
Old Soldier:
I wasn't citing my family members' military service to bolster my own association with the military. I was showing that it's possible to have these kinds of discussions without using the "I served, so don't question me!" line of argument. I'm sorry you those particular protesters treated you that way, and I'm sure if I expereinced what you went through I might be as angry as you.
I wish I could speak about the war withoug doing so in such personal terms, but that's often a major factor how I shape my views about war, and it certainly seems so for those here who have served.
Yes, I didn't serve, and it increasingly looks like I never will. So I'll give you three people in my family who did serve, and how they influence my views.
a) My dad. Drafted for Vietnam. Hit by grenade in last month of his tour. The man in front of him died that day. Still has shrapnel all over his body. Very liberal. Voted for Nader in 2000. Supported Afghanistan war, not Iraq war.
b) My 2nd Cousin. Underwater explosives specialist in Navy in Vietnam. Saw comrades die. Very strong Republican and Bush supporter, but in general low-key about it. Willing to debate the current Iraq war, which he very much supports, with all the younger people in our family, who are generally more liberal, and do so in a friendly manner.
c) My Uncle. Used connections to get into CA national guard during Vietnam. Huge Republican and Bush supporter, very vocal about it. Tells his small children that Kerry hates America and is a coward, and they go around spouting this others. Always going on about supporting the troops.
It seems to me everyone is this comment section should be united in respecting (a) and (b) while seeing (c) as something of a joke. Yet you guys often come off as supporting (b) and (c), and seeing (a) as something anti-American. The genuine Americans are (a) and (b) as far as I'm concerned, and (c) is the ugly American.
Am I wrong? I don't understand why, as much as you may disagree with Kerry or Murtha, you denigrate them when they are attacked by people like Cheney and Bush who did not put in the time to earn respect on military affairs.
Posted by: Nate at June 21, 2006 06:00 PM (UlkGh)
28
Nate, I do not want to pursue this conversation on CY's site. Click here and post a comment using your real email address and I will contact you; that is if you desire to continue to converse.
Posted by: Old Soldier at June 21, 2006 09:08 PM (owAN1)
29
Jax, no matter how the left spins it by calling for a re-deployment. It is Cut and Run. Where are they going to re-deploy anyway? Like I stated above. When the Left has a Vision, a Plan, and a Spine then you can talk all you want. Until that time its all re-hash. Regurgitated tripe from the left, if you remember how tough they were with the North Koreans appease the little pot bellied pig and what did it get us? Or negotiate our way out of the Iran hostage situation. Negotiation is great while your not languishing in a Islamic extremist gulag. Good media coverage though. Clintons admin. got all those Army Rangers killed in Mogadishu, couldn't use AC130 gunship’s "To much Media". I don't blame a democrat, I blame your leadership. The left does not have any leaders, they have hand wringer and manipulators. Look at Hillary how far she has moved to the right. All to get elected. Its not what she believes, its about your vote. Have you noticed that they have abandoned the "Culture of corruption" mantra. They are just as bad as the right. Wipe the sleep from your eyes and smell the coffee. It’s all about regaining power and telling you what to do and how to do it. CONTROL, YIKES!!!! It makes no difference if we leave the Middle East to their own demise they are going to hate us anyway because we are the Great Satan. Oh, BTW Harry Reid is idiot along with Pelosi. If they get much farther to the left they will need a boat to get back. As Specter stated you guys need to take control of your party. Stop letting these so called concerned citizens lead you around by the collective noses.
Posted by: Faithful Patriot at June 26, 2006 06:35 AM (nFSnk)
Hide Comments
| Add Comment
Funding "Young Americans"
Pat Dollard, former Hollywood agent turned Iraq War documentary filmmaker needs your help:
I gave it all up, my life and my income, to serve my country in the War in Terror, with the one weapon a 42 year old civilian like me could use: a camera. I'm bleeding my life savings dry, and we all need your help with finishing funds for the project. I may soon have to go back to Ramadi to cover a potential large operation in the city ala Fallujah. It's a risk, as usual, that I'm willing to take. Any donation you can make towards "Young Americans" will be greatly appreciated, and more importantly, will have a huge impact on America
by helping to balance out the non-stop BS liberal message we are all drowning in. All contributors, if requested, will be named in the end title sequence with a shared Associate Producer credit. Please rally around the project, the Marines, and America.
At my request Pat set up a Paypal account (via the link above), which will allow you to help contribute to the completion of this project. Please consider doing so. Every dollar helps Pat get one step closer to finishing a
real reality series that will show America the war in Iraq as fought by the Marines that the mainstream media would never dare show you.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
10:55 AM
| Comments (1)
| Add Comment
| Trackbacks (Suck)
1
Go to the pentegon for funding!!!!!! They have had fake news stories planted all over the world....i'm sure they would fund something like this.
After 4 years and spending $15000 per Iraqi (and counting) they fact that we should have to work to show "the good news" is a joke.
If you think the US media is bad....follow events in the media of the nations "we are liberating"
Posted by: centrist at June 21, 2006 10:16 AM (vrOoK)
Hide Comments
| Add Comment
Bodies of Missing Soldiers Apparently Found
Sadly, I think this is what we expected:
A high-ranking official with the Iraqi Defense Ministry told CNN on Tuesday that the bodies of two missing U.S. soldiers were found Saturday south of Baghdad.
No more details were immediately available.
"Two bodies have been found," Maj. William Wilhoite, spokesman for Multi-National Forces-Iraq, told CNN.
"We haven't made any confirmation if they're the two U.S. soldiers we're looking for."
He said he did not know whether the bodies showed signs of torture. "I haven't heard anything through our official channels," he said.
"Obviously, before we made any announcement, if it was our soldiers, we'd have to make notification to the families," Wilhoite said.
Pfc. Kristian Menchaca, 23, of Houston, Texas, and Pfc. Thomas L. Tucker, 25, of Madras, Oregon, went missing Friday after an attack on a traffic checkpoint near the town of Yusufiya, 12 miles (20 km) south of Baghdad.
The
Washington Post reports that the two men
had been tortured:
Two U.S. soldiers missing since an attack on a checkpoint last week have been found dead near a power plant in Yusifiyah, south of Baghdad, according to an Iraqi defense official.
Maj. Gen. Abdul Aziz Muhammed-Jassim, head of operations at the Iraqi Ministry of Defense, said the soldiers had been "barbarically" killed and that there were traces of torture on their bodies.
As I
predicted yesterday, the media quickly found their
anti-war, anti-Bush soundbite:
The news is going to be heartbreaking for my family," Menchaca's uncle, Ken MacKenzie, told NBC's "Today" show.
He said the United States should have paid a ransom for the two soldiers from money seized from Saddam Hussein.
"I think the U.S. was too slow to react to this," MacKenzie said. "Because the U.S. did not have a plan in place, my nephew has paid with his life."
MacKenzie is entitled to grieve, but he cannot blame this on anyone other than the terrorists.
Today Show host Matt Lauer even
called him on it.
Once his nephew surrendered he was a dead man, and there was nothing, no "plan" or bribe that would have changed this outcome.
The terrorists of the Mujahedeen Shura Council probably think they have scored a victory, and indeed, in the short-term, they have. They can claim that after three years of war, they finally captured and killed a grand total of three U.S. soldiers. Accounts of the capture and killing of U.S. soldiers will receive a great amount of press worldwide. Arab media will likely present the deaths as a thinly veiled triumph, and the western media will use it as an opportunity to once again call for disengagement, as will many Democrats.
But these killings will not be received favorably by the U.S. military in Iraq, which will likely step up operations to hunt down and destroy terror and insurgent cells operating in this part of Iraq. Though official orders will not be given, perhaps U.S. forces will not be so inclined to take prisoners after this incident. Insurgents and their al Qaeda allies set the tone of giving U.S. forces no quarter when they took prisoners.
They made a huge mistake.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
10:16 AM
| Comments (7)
| Add Comment
| Trackbacks (Suck)
1
There are some very pissed off screaming eagles ready to place the Ace of Spades in the appropriate place on any terrorist they obtain.
Posted by: bman at June 20, 2006 09:39 AM (sHmkd)
2
I think the media has been both better and worse than you suggest. At NewsBusters the transcript of the MacKenzie interview shows Matt Lauer (?!) stood up for good sense and shot down MacKenzie's suggestions.
However, the Post article you link to cannot help but bring up the murder charges brought against 3 soliers yesterday, and even works in the Italian indictment for the killing the intelligence agent that tried to rush a U.S. checkpoint.
Posted by: McKreck at June 20, 2006 11:10 AM (0Uc5D)
3
What's funny is that we're winning this war despite what the media would like to portray.
Great post.
Aloha,
Jeff
Posted by: jeff at June 20, 2006 11:54 AM (eKJDe)
4
When will the left understand that we are not fighting soldiers in Iraq, we are fighting 7th century animals.
American policy is NOT responsible for what happened to these young American warriors. Islamists have been torturing and beheading prisoners since the inception of their "religion".
Posted by: MCPO Airdale at June 20, 2006 11:57 AM (3nKvy)
5
Okay, someone on the left step forward and proclaim that we should still extend the articles of the Geneva Accords to these sub-humans. They tortured and killed two soldiers rather than take them as POWs. This had absolutely nothing to do with Abu Ghrab, Gitmo, Afghanistan, Haditha, Fallujah or any other infraction the left would like to throw up. It is centuries old behavior that is perpetuated by religious tennant and dogma. These people would just a quickly do the same thing to any of the useful idiots on the left that should fall prey to them. Wake up and smell the coffee before you smell the urine in your pants!
Posted by: Old Soldier at June 20, 2006 12:27 PM (X2tAw)
6
I want to know something. In Abu Ghrab, Gitmo, Haditha and other places, even the hint of infraction brings out detailed investigation.
I've never heard *ANYBODY* from al Qaeda or Mujahedeen Shura Council bring any of their "soldiers" up on Geneva charges. Gee, with suicide bombers killing civilians, beheadings and general crap that has been done by them, you know their leaders don't give a damn about the Geneva Convention and rules of war.
This is the difference between us and them. We believe in righting wrongs, even if it has been done by one of us. We believe in instilling justice by the rule of law and protection of the weak from the strong.
For the barbarians who caused the deaths of the servicemen, may hell be too good for you.
Posted by: Dave at June 20, 2006 03:08 PM (ptid4)
7
I'm about to start the book by Lieutenant Pantano who was prosecuted for murder by the Marines for shooting two men he suspected of being terrorists, at a checkpoint. Maybe the REMF JAG officer who prosecuted him should pay attention to this story. These kids got ambushed at a checkpint.
Posted by: Mike K at June 20, 2006 04:30 PM (xznvL)
Hide Comments
| Add Comment
<< Page 198 >>
Processing 0.04, elapsed 0.9289 seconds.
36 queries taking 0.9039 seconds, 245 records returned.
Page size 250 kb.
Powered by Minx 0.8 beta.