Confederate Yankee
August 28, 2006
Israel Deploys Top Secret "Fast Rust" Missiles
Reuters claims this armored car was hit by two missiles from an Israeli helicopter.
As you can see, Isreal's new missiles are quite different than the standard Hellfire and TOW ATGMs of the past, both of which, designed for tanks, would have minced an armored car such as this one. Ths armored car is said to have been hit not once, but
twice by missiles, and the only apparent damage is a hole that seems to be surrounded by rust. Corrosion, or explosion?
I think it is fairly obvious that if the Israelis did fire two missiles at this armor car, that the car did not take a direct hit. Tanks can't survive the ATGMs Israel uses on their helicopters, and armored cars have much thinner armor than tanks. It would have cut through one side, detonated, and left a shattered, burning hulk. There was no explosion, and even a dud would have completely punched through the vehicle, exiting the other side with a noticable hole. The photo below shows no such penetration on the opposite side.
Powerline has more. I'd consider the possibility of a near miss causing some damage, but this vehicle was not directly hit by any known missile, and I don't know of any weapons system that would cause a vehicle to apparently rust by the next morning.
To put it mildly, I view the Reuters claims of an successful pair of Israeli missile strikes on this vehicle as highly unlikely.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
06:29 AM
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1
Oh for God's sake, the windows aren't even shattered.
They aren't even trying any more.
Posted by: monkeyboy at August 28, 2006 08:29 AM (w4rJE)
2
"highly unlikely" is a good way to state it. Understatement is fun.
Posted by: brando at August 28, 2006 08:36 AM (K+VjK)
3
Pretty cheesy "armored" truck. The damage looks like something done with a can opener. Maybe a near-miss from a case of UN-provided relief supplies.
Posted by: old_dawg at August 28, 2006 10:28 AM (mvlLy)
4
Is it possible that the vehicle was entirely rusted out, only to be painted over by Reuters hastily (w/o removing the rust), so that when it got hit, the blast simply ripped off the paint, exposing the pre-existing rust?
Posted by: Bret at August 28, 2006 11:17 AM (JHRJI)
5
If this is the damage that two anti-armor guided missiles do, then I'd say Israeli weaponry is not even as useful as the Hezbolla rockets.
Love the quick-rust chemical they add though. Those Jooz, what evil will they think of next?
Posted by: Mark at August 28, 2006 11:45 AM (+45yf)
6
What's amazing is they're puling this crap even after all the negative exposure they've received recently. And it's such lame crap. What are they thinking? And do you think they ever actually manage to do a good job faking the news? Imagine what they could accomplish with a little effort.
Posted by: Mark at August 28, 2006 12:00 PM (+45yf)
7
Two missle hits and this is the level of destruction? No one killed? After two explosive missle hits, the white paint is still white...
Who makes these vehicles and when can we rearm our troops in Iraq with them?
We would be invincible.
Posted by: SouthernRoots at August 28, 2006 01:02 PM (jHBWL)
8
Another reutered incident!
(I linked to your post but I don't know how to do trackbacks)
Posted by: Helmer Fudge at August 28, 2006 04:16 PM (bW9IA)
9
I wish Adnan Hajj was still around to help clear this matter up.
Posted by: jay at August 28, 2006 07:00 PM (UUITu)
10
Rust is commonly seen where explosives or high-velocity debris has made contact with steel. The phenomeon is known as heat oxidation. Look at any welding job, vehicle burned in a wildfire, or detonation of military ordnance, and oxidation is readily evident.
The nature of the hole in the roof of the Reuters vehicles is inconsistent with penetration by shrapnel. There would be more than one hole, a larger one surrounded by many smaller ones. This single hole, its shape and the initial gray color of the damage area are more consistent with a vehicle struck by a large piece of masonry striking the top of the vehicle at high velocity, possibly dislodged by a rocket blast. It is clear that the vehicle, itself, was not struck by missiles or rockets (there is an important distinction between the two).
I implore all bloggers who keep making an issue of rust in this case and that of the Qana ambulances to refrain from speculation. The media is thoroughly clueless about anything military, particularly weaponry. They will mix the terms rocket and missile without any inkling of the important distinctions, and they will claim that something "hit" a vehicle or other target when it actually just got close or was nearby. It is not necessarily dishobesty, but often inexcusable ignorance. Their credibility is gone. Please don't let the bloggers wind up in the same situation by wild speculation.
I do not like to use the term "expert" because it is overused and presumptuous but, for purpose of establishing credentials, I can be considered a subject matter expert on ordnance. delivery systems, military vehicles and weapons effects.
Credentials: 6 years USAF Armament Systems Technician
6 years USAF imagery interpretation with heavy BDA of targets
1 year Army Battlefield Intel Analyst
13 years Open-Source Intelligence (OSINT) analysis
Ronald Lewis
MILITARY/OSINT ANALYST
Posted by: RONALD LEWIS at August 31, 2006 12:28 PM (xGZ+b)
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August 27, 2006
Before and After
A bit of three years after-the-fact editing in a 2003 Greg Mitchell editorial at Editor & Publisher got quite a bit of attention in the blogosphere yesterday.
For those you now just coming to this story, Mitchell wrote a May, 20, 2003 article in which he admitted to faking a news story as a young reporter.
Jon Ham tipped me off to the existence of the article, which led me to write
this post opining that perhaps Mitchell wrote his sympathetic and spirited defenses of photojournalists accused of staging photographs precisely because he, too, had an admitted history as a fraudulent journalist.
My post, complete with a link to Mitchell's 2003 editorial, went "live" early Friday afternoon, complete with quotes pulled from Mitchell's article.
Many blogs linked the story quickly starting at 1:56 PM, and by 4:00 PM, no fewer than five other blogs had copied sections of text, including the opening paragraph. By 5:00 PM, in the course of an hour, the long-dormant story reappeared, rewritten to emphasize Mitchell's youth and inexperience.
As Mary Katharine Ham
noted:
This is just so phenomenally stupid. CY rounded up all the blogs that excerpted the original article, and he has the link to the original article from the Wayback Machine. It's all there, for everyone to see. All of the incredible dishonesty. If it was pathetic to fake a story about tourists at Niagara, it's downright embarrassing to alter the confession after a couple people bring attention to it.
Stephen Spriuell, writing at National Review Online's
Media Blog, says this represents journalistic malpractice, and if true, calls Mitchell's professional ethics into question.
And so as the work week begins again tomorrow, I suspect we're going to learn some lessons not only about Mitchell, but about the company Mitchell works for,
VNU Business Media, and it's President and CEO, Michael Marchesano. Marchesano's site states that, "VNU Business Media takes pride in being one of the most prestigious and respected business information companies in the world."
I have no reason to doubt that, and at this point on a Sunday morning, would be quite surprised if Mr. Marchesano even knew about the potential damage to his company's reputation committed by "someone" trying to mitigate the damage to the reputation of someone who is already a self-admitted fraud.
VNU Business Media claims "45 market-leading trade magazines, 17 directories, 70 events and conferences, 65 trade shows and 165 eMedia products." We will learn tomorrow how willing they are to defend their credibility, and how transparently they choose to respond to what is a flagrant and well-documented cases of dishonesty by someone on their editorial staff. This case is easily proven by an internal audit showing precisely who updated the May 20, 2003 article between 4:00PM and 5:00 PM (Eastern) this past Friday afternoon.
The actual investigation should take less than an hour, but how VNU Business Media,
Editor & Publisher, and Greg Mitchell choose to respond may affect them all for a long time to come.
Update: It might not be VNU Business Media that looks into Mitchell's apparent transgressions, but VNU eMedia, who can be contacted
here. If you choose to write VNU, please
respectfully ask for a review of the changes to the article, and explain who you think it warrants a review.
Update: Dan Riehl establishes that Mitchell seems to have lied about other elements of this story as well.
Riehl argues Mitchell was neither nineteen, nor an intern, but 21-year-old professional journalist when he committed his first journalistic fraud. It seems Greg Mitchell has a pattern of behavior that should call his entire body of work into question.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
10:40 AM
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1
I'm betting E&P "responds" with silence. They are that smug.
Posted by: Purple Avenger at August 27, 2006 05:27 PM (+u+9/)
2
Linked from Old War Dogs.
Posted by: Bill Faith at August 27, 2006 07:24 PM (n7SaI)
3
So someone in the MSM gets caught making things up.
And this is news ?
Posted by: Actual at August 27, 2006 07:41 PM (jSipq)
4
hi....
Read Hamm's piece. Excellent research on your part. Idiocy like this is rarely reported in the main-stream, however, for obvious reasons.
Buuuuuuuuut....if only to get the word out, we should take a lesson from the Left.....
Somebody out there can probably show personal duress from said false stories. They should sue the hell out of said media, and we as conservatives should back them.
Until that happens, we will never show just how biased, and in some cases traitorous the main stream really is.
paul
Posted by: paul at August 28, 2006 03:35 AM (OaZ/u)
5
So let me get this straight, CY and others are up in arms about an editorial written 3 years ago that had 8 words added to it (nothing removed) about something that happened to the editor 27 years before that.
Where can I get in line for the mandatory efigy burning and storming of the E&P building?
Posted by: matt a at August 28, 2006 10:04 AM (GvAmg)
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August 26, 2006
The More Things Change...
Acting on a tip yesterday from Jon Ham, I wrote this post, ripping into Editor & Publisher editor Greg Mitchell for his guilty history of staging the news.
The story was quickly picked up in the blogosphere, including NRO's
Media Blog,
Instapundit, and
Ace of Spades HQ.
The "meat" of the story was Greg Mitchell's
2003 admission that he had faked a minor news story in his past, and this "re-broke" after Mitchell had just written a pair of columns blasting bloggers for questioning the apparent staging and faking of news stories by the media in the recent Israeli-Hezbollah war. The article read:
Since the press seems to be in full-disclosure mode these days, I want to finally come clean. Back when I worked for the Niagara Falls (N.Y.) Gazette (now the Niagara Gazette), our city editor asked me to find out what tourists thought about an amazing local event: Engineers had literally "turned off" the famous cataracts, diverting water so they could shore up the crumbling rock face. Were visitors disappointed to find a trickle rather than a roar? Or thrilled about witnessing this once-in-a-lifetime stunt?
I never found out. Oh, I went down to the falls, all right, but when I got there, I discovered that I just could not wander up to strangers (even dorky ones wearing funny hats and knee socks) and ask them for their personal opinions, however innocuous. It was a puffball assignment, but that wasn't why I rebelled. I just could not bring myself to do it.
So I sat on a park bench and scribbled out a few fake notes and then went back to the office and wrote my fake story, no doubt quoting someone like Jane Smith from Seattle, honeymooning with her husband Oscar, saying something like, "Gosh, I never knew there was so much rock under there!"
Of course, I got away with it.
That was
exactly the text of
this article when I, Mary Katharine Ham of
Townhall.com, Jeff Goldstein of
Protein Wisdom, Charles Johnson of
Little Green Footballs, Mike of
Cold Fury, and
Suitably Flip cited the text of the article this afternoon.
And yet now, things have mysteriously changed within the article.
As cited by the six blogs listed in the proceeding paragraph, the opening lines of the article began:
Since the press seems to be in full-disclosure mode these days, I want to finally come clean. Back when I worked for the Niagara Falls (N.Y.) Gazette (now the Niagara Gazette), our city editor asked me to find out what tourists thought about an amazing local event: Engineers had literally “turned off” the famous cataracts, diverting water so they could shore up the crumbling rock face. Were visitors disappointed to find a trickle rather than a roar? Or thrilled about witnessing this once-in-a-lifetime stunt?
By 5:01 PM Eastern time, someone pasting at
CY under the name Barfly, in a comment defending Mitchell, noted:
"Back when I was 19 and worked for the Niagara Falls (N.Y.) Gazette (now the Niagara Gazette) as a summer intern[ . . .]"
I think its hilarious how you take Greg to task - and do it in such a dishonest way! Why did you omit the part about his being an intern at the time? Did it interfere with your narrative?. . .
And Barfly was correct:
the narrative had changed. It had changed to this:
Since the press seems to be in full-disclosure mode these days, I want to finally come clean. Back in 1967, when I was 19 and worked for the Niagara Falls (N.Y.) Gazette (now the Niagara Gazette) as a summer intern, our city editor asked me to find out what tourists thought about an amazing local event: Engineers had literally "turned off" the famous cataracts, diverting water so they could shore up the crumbling rock face. Were visitors disappointed to find a trickle rather than a roar? Or thrilled about witnessing this once-in-a-lifetime stunt?
Not sure what changed? Let's show the newly added words in bold just to make it a bit more obvious:
Since the press seems to be in full-disclosure mode these days, I want to finally come clean. Back in 1967, when I was 19 and worked for the Niagara Falls (N.Y.) Gazette (now the Niagara Gazette) as a summer intern, our city editor asked me to find out what tourists thought about an amazing local event: Engineers had literally "turned off" the famous cataracts, diverting water so they could shore up the crumbling rock face. Were visitors disappointed to find a trickle rather than a roar? Or thrilled about witnessing this once-in-a-lifetime stunt?
Someone substantially altered the text of the mediainfo.com story,
after six different bloggers cited the article. If you type in the URL of http://www.mediainfo.com/ and press "enter" so that you could investigate who mediainfo.com belongs to, wondering how they could change such an old story so quickly, the URL will resolve to
adweek.com.
Adweek is owned by
VNU Business Media, the same company that runs media web sites
BrandWeek,
MediaWeek and--you guessed it--
Editor & Publisher, where Greg Mitchell is the editor on the hotseat.
It is readily apparent that someone at
Editor and Publisher has been manipulating the news a lot more recently than 1967, and if I was a corporate officer at
VNU Business Media, I think I'd start my Monday morning by asking who has access rights to post and repost stories, and I'd make a thorough investigation of the server logs to see who uploaded the changes to that article Friday afternoon, sometime between 2:30 PM and 5:01 PM. I'd ask, because that someone is torpedoing my company's credibility.
When they talk to "that person," I hope they remind him that 1967 is long past, but character flaws are forever.
Update:
Ed Driscoll notes that the
original, unaltered article exists on the Internet Archive Wayback Machine.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
01:19 AM
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1
Well, this is something of a bombshell. Obviously it suggests the intellectual dishonesty Greg Mitchell engaged in as a “19-year-old intern” (or staff reporter or whatever) is still very much apart of his journalistic persona.
What’s especially ironic is that E&P presents itself as being the conscious and “watchdog” of the journalistic trade or “profession.” Yet here’s an apparent example of E&P going into archival materials and making changes – without notifying readers. If true, it’s going to be fascinating to see how this plays out.
Incidentally, when E&P was covering the Sago Mine disaster in West Virginia, I noticed an online discussion (I don’t remember where) between journalists about how the wording in E&P’s hard-hitting stories criticizing the media’s coverage had mysteriously changed during the day. And these changes, to be sure, apparently went beyond typos, misspellings, and that sort of thing. E&P allegedly tweaked substantive parts of its articles -- just like it’s apparently done with archival material -- rather than notifying readers of clarifications or corrections.
To be sure, I don’t know if my anecdote involving E&P’s mine coverage is accurate. But it certainly is consistent with what’s being described in respect to the mysterious changes in Mitchell’s retrospective piece.
Finally, as I noted in an earlier comment, even if Mitchell was only an intern, it’s highly probable he had enough journalism experience and training to know that what he was doing was wrong.
There’s a final irony here. Like many senior editors in the MSM, Mitchell came of age during the Watergate and Vietnam War eras. That’s when the word “cover-up,” among other things, became part of the journalistic lexicon. And those engaging in cover-ups of any kind -- according to the journalistic culture that sprang from that era -- were given no quarter. Now that E&P is engaging in an apparent cover-up, let’s see how much slack Mitchell’s MSM pals give him.
Posted by: dpaulin at August 26, 2006 02:47 AM (AN+Gn)
2
It takes forever to load, but as of the time of this post, the original version of Mitchell's article is still in The Internet Archive Wayback Machine.
Posted by: Ed Driscoll at August 26, 2006 03:07 AM (thF07)
3
Someone substantially altered the text of the mediainfo.com story, after six different bloggers cited the article. If you type in the URL of http://www.mediainfo.com/ and press "enter" so that you could investigate who mediainfo.com belongs to, wondering how they could change such an old story so quickly, the URL will resolve to adweek.com.
It is readily apparent that someone at Editor and Publisher has been manipulating the news a lot more recently than 1967, and if I was a corporate officer at VNU Business Media, I think I'd start my Monday morning by asking who has access rights to post and repost stories, and I'd make a thorough investigation of the server logs to see who uploaded the changes to that article Friday afternoon, sometime between 2:30 PM and 5:01 PM. I’d ask, because that someone is torpedoing my company’s credibility.
When they talk to "that person," I hope they remind him that 1967 is long past, but character flaws are forever."
Posted by Confederate Yankee at August 26, 2006 01:19 AM | TrackBack
So you have no proof of this "change", correct? And we're supposed to just trust that you wingers aren't covering for each other?
Here's an alternate theory: one blogger (perhaps "Jon Ham") altered the text for partisan reasons, and sent it out, and you guys ran with it. When I pointed out the discrepancy, you went into CYA mode. Since I caught the change, and not you, I could just as easily ascribe this "change" to you, as you did to someone at E&P as you have no proof. The alternative is to take you guys at your word, without proof. This stinks like a "family" cover-up, and I don't mean Greg Sargent and E&P.
Why would he include the info, after leaving it out? What purpose would it serve?
But you, your motives are crystal, buddy.
Posted by: Barfly at August 26, 2006 03:16 AM (LaWWK)
4
Barfly,
The original is still archived and online.
Posted by: Ed Driscoll at August 26, 2006 03:26 AM (thF07)
5
Mayhap it's time for Greg Mitchell to be exiled to the Island of Misfit Journalists along with Mary Mapes, Dan Rather, Jayson Blair, and a good chunk of Reuters' photo stringers.
There's a certain principle in law enforcement that says for evey time someone is caught doing something wrong, there were probably ten times they were not caught. Character matters quite a lot in a business based so much on trust.
Posted by: TallDave at August 26, 2006 07:11 AM (H8Wgl)
6
Barfly,
My hacking skills aren't what you imagine. I would have no idea how to get into E&P's server to change wording in a column.
I remembered that column from four years ago because it enraged me so at the time. I wrote a letter contemporaneously to Romenesko's blog about it, but no one seemed to think this was a big deal. But that's because at the time I worked for the MSM and when writing to Romenesko I was talking to the MSM, and E&P circulated only to the MSM. Talk about a closed circuit!
As for the word changes, I don't see the point. Mitchell made clear in the original (fifth graf) that he was a 19-year-old intern and I referenced that in my letter. Putting it in the lede ex post facto doesn't change much.
Anyway, this whole episode has been an instructive lesson in how the new media has changed everything.
Posted by: Jon Ham at August 26, 2006 08:04 AM (oaai4)
7
Mike Wallace can learn a thing or two from Greg Mitchell.
Posted by: jay at August 26, 2006 08:20 AM (tG/yU)
8
"And we're supposed to just trust that you wingers aren't covering for each other?"
Barfly: it looks like you owe them an apology. Will one be forthcoming? I doubt it.
Posted by: Charlie the Hammer at August 26, 2006 09:01 AM (F427A)
9
With the original article clearly stored in the Internet Archives, "Barfly" and Mr. Mitchell will have to back up from the "smear campaign" claims and try something else. Attacking the bloggers as Wing Nuts is no doubt one plan, which they've already started. Hard to see that that will work when anyone with a spare minute can confirm this for themselves. E&P can only pray that a bigger story will surface that will distract their critics.
But bigger than the challenge to E&P will be the challenge for the New York Times. Mr. Mitchell has been a "long time contributor" for the paper of record. I wonder what similar "skills" he's applied there? Anyone care to look?
Posted by: Regret at August 26, 2006 09:13 AM (4Rdaz)
Posted by: Patterico at August 26, 2006 09:16 AM (nzgAx)
11
It's not the crime, it's the coverup. Except in this case it's the crime too.
Posted by: Barfy at August 26, 2006 09:17 AM (9dLdW)
12
Coverup ?
Who does he think you are? The Edgartown police investigating an automobile accident on Chappaquiddick Island?
Posted by: Actual at August 26, 2006 09:32 AM (jSipq)
13
That wasn't much of an apology, Barfly.
Posted by: Laddy at August 26, 2006 09:39 AM (4/q5L)
14
Barfly:
Come on, don't apologize, dig deeper! Obviously, those right-wing ideologues at the WaybackMachine are in on the act. Google's cache--and everybody else who will have looked at the prior-to-change version is part of the conspiracy, too! Call Oliver Stone!
Posted by: A. Rickey at August 26, 2006 09:52 AM (BWWt2)
15
What's new? Making up stories is part of lazy journalism practiced since Guttenburg. Its now getting more notice because of the blogging community which has become like a uncontrollable thruth serum. Of course, 3 martini journalists don't like it - why should they.
Posted by: Jack Lillywhite at August 26, 2006 09:52 AM (y0YKw)
16
Laddy, if you look closely, 'Barfy' is not 'Barfly'. They even indicate different email addresses.
I think the best we can hope for is that 'Barfly' will STFU, having no sane response that can be fit into the Derangement Syndrome worldview.
Posted by: The Monster at August 26, 2006 09:52 AM (tw5mW)
17
Hmmn, he was there in 1967 reporting about the Falls being turned off? I thought the Corp of Engineers did that in 1969 not 1967.
Posted by: Uncle_Walther at August 26, 2006 09:58 AM (u0+aA)
18
That doesn't sound like an apology to John Ham to me, Barfly.
Posted by: w3 at August 26, 2006 10:04 AM (DRifx)
19
This little fracas is getting to be par for the course with Editor and Publisher. The magazine is as much about left-wing editorializing and activism as it is about media criticism.
See here:
http://blogs.rocky
mountainnews.com/denver/temple/archives/2006/08/why_editor_publ.html
And here:
http://www.inopinion.com/features/?itemid=951
And here:
http://www.inopinion.com/features/index.php?itemid=805
Posted by: David Mastio at August 26, 2006 10:13 AM (ac6h5)
20
I've always wondered how the barking moonbats could support the conspiracy theories they come up with. Now ... evidence that at least one of them is a drunk and has pickled his brain.
It begins to come together.
Posted by: NahnCee at August 26, 2006 10:15 AM (p1fbb)
21
1967... 1969... what's the difference?
Uncle looks to be correct: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Niagra_Falls
Posted by: w3 at August 26, 2006 10:19 AM (DRifx)
22
Barfly,
In your original comment, you thought that C.Y. had misquoted the E&P article by Mitchell, right?
Then in this thread, you wrote (8/26/06 3:16am) that a right-wing blogger might have altered the text of Mitchell's E&P article to create this kerfluffle. You mean that Jon Ham or somebody hacked E&P's site and made the text alterations illicitly and without Mitchell's or E&P's knowledge, right?
Jon Ham noted the obvious (8:04am), that it's a bit of a stretch to hang the subtle changes in the article on uberhacking feats by bloggers unaffiliated with E&P.
Then you recently commented (9:17am)
It's not the crime, it's the coverup. Except in this case it's the crime too.
I'm confused. What do you now see as the crime, and what do you think the coverup is?
Posted by: AMac at August 26, 2006 10:19 AM (GWP+/)
23
Wow, I’ve heard of rewriting history, but that is a literal rewrite.
I would think that in the long run, the MSM would be grateful to bloggers, for helping them with their fact checking. It’s not like bloggers want to destroy all news agencies, but rather for them to tighten up the screws. When you’re caught, you have to repent and move on. You don’t get to counter accuse. I guess that’s the new definition of good journalism.
Posted by: brando at August 26, 2006 10:20 AM (K+VjK)
24
Okay, am i the only person who doesn't really care. Okay, so he added that he was 19 and an intern. He added a little mitigating info. so what? At worst, he should have noted the minor change, but so long as it is true, i don't see how its a big ethical lapse to add it in.
The real headline is he has done this himself.
Posted by: A.W. of Freespeech.com at August 26, 2006 10:22 AM (ajx3n)
25
Except, A.W., it looks like he was lying about being 19 if the falls were actually turned off in 1969 as Wikipedia indicates.
What we appear to have hear is an interesting story...
Posted by: Jason Blair at August 26, 2006 10:30 AM (retis)
26
off coarse, Eye mint "here". Stupdi tiepos.
Posted by: Jason Blair at August 26, 2006 10:32 AM (retis)
27
The Falls were shut off in 1969, not 1967. Was this just a typo at E&P or another clumsy lie? When was Greg Mitchell born? Was he a 19 year old intern in 1969, when he fabricated the Falls story?
Posted by: Lewis at August 26, 2006 10:33 AM (hfEuj)
28
The Monster wrote (9:52am):
if you look closely, 'Barfy' is not 'Barfly'. They even indicate different email addresses.
Sorry, Barfly, my bad at 10:19am--missed that.
I still hope you do share your current thinking on how the changes at E&P came to pass.
Posted by: AMac at August 26, 2006 10:34 AM (GWP+/)
29
A classic case of digging deeper, and an extraordinary irony. Mitchell presented the tale as a learning experience: he was only 19, an intern. As he wrote it, he must have thought how safely distant that lapse was, his position at the helm of E&P proof of how far he'd come. Who could doubt he had learned right from wrong? Changing the article, assuming Mitchell did it, suggests he would have profitted from a few more lessons in ethics, particularly given parallels with the recent photo scandals.
That old E&P article is a historical artifact, a piece of evidence, that an honest journalist would have to deal with as is. However, as in the case of the corrupt photojournalists, the evidence (text/image) that's available didn't tell quite the right story, so it had to be altered.
The change is modest, as Jon Ham points out above. It does not change the facts of the story, only the effect of the story on the reader. But it does change the fact of the story itself, and it does reveal a distrust of the reader great enough to rationalize dishonesty.
How common is this attitude among journalists? How often do well-meaning journalists rationalize dishonesty in the name of "truth"? Truth of this sort is unmoored from facts and essentially a literary effect.
Posted by: clazy at August 26, 2006 10:38 AM (BJOWr)
30
What do you now see as the crime
I've submitted this case to the Kos jury for deliberation.
The charge: Criticism of an apparent leftwing moonbat who admits to "making shit up" as a journalist.
The defense: incoherant rambling and nonsense.
Verdict: Innocent by reason of being a fellow traveler ;->
Posted by: Purple Avenger at August 26, 2006 10:39 AM (+u+9/)
Posted by: spacemonkey at August 26, 2006 10:42 AM (qSKHX)
32
Well... Wikipedia seems pretty certain that it was June, 1969 that the falls were turned off to work on the rock faces, not 1967.
So the question is, was Mitchell 21, not 19, when he fabricated those quotes? Anybody got access to Mitchell's DOB?
Posted by: MrJimm at August 26, 2006 10:43 AM (K4jYa)
33
that was supposed to be a mathematical 'not equal' sign.
Posted by: spacemonkey at August 26, 2006 10:44 AM (qSKHX)
34
They should have put a note saying the article had been updated. So that's a little sneaky.
However--the issue itself is a non-issue. Yeah, he made a minor mistake 40 years ago!~ And he is admitting it in the article because it's relevant.
And yet the "character" death squads get called out. Absurd. How is dialogue to exist with such over-the-top over-reaction--please. Without sin, throw the first stone and all that. Come on. Cripes.
Posted by: lee kane at August 26, 2006 10:48 AM (T3vq4)
35
Btw, how old was Domenech when he plagiarized?
And what happened to him?
Posted by: Patterico at August 26, 2006 10:58 AM (nzgAx)
36
Lee.
A mistake is when you grab the wrong coffee cup. "Mistake" has no component of will in it. Mitchell didn't make a mistake. He lied on purpose. And he did it for a reason, to make it easy on himself.
Posted by: Richard Aubrey at August 26, 2006 10:59 AM (rAMA0)
37
Umm, lee -
rewriting the article three years after the fact is not a good journalistic practice.
Adding an 'Update' would be okay.
Updated: This article has generated some recent interest, I'd like to make it more clear that the example I give is from when I was 19 years old, working as an intern. Greg Mitchell
------------------
Original text.
------------------
Posted by: BumperStickerist at August 26, 2006 11:03 AM (PcDvW)
38
Lee Kane,
For a business engaged in reporting facts, a "little sneaky" is like "a little bit pregnant".
Posted by: Chants at August 26, 2006 11:03 AM (PvJWa)
39
Looks like Mitchell was indeed 21 at the time, based on a 2003 article listing his age as 55.
http://suitablyflip.blogs.com/suitably_flip/2006/08/recovering_fabu.html
Posted by: Flip at August 26, 2006 11:11 AM (OmwM3)
40
Will Editor & Publisher finally change their name to Fabricator & Airbrusher? The MSM deserves a worthies cataloger of its demise than this.
Posted by: hehster at August 26, 2006 11:26 AM (S7FHT)
41
No updated response from Barfly yet....
If this were a 1337 h4x0r website, they'd have a word for what happened to Barfly...
PWNED!!11!!
Hey Spacemonkey, I kind of like Barfy.
Posted by: Lubbert Das at August 26, 2006 11:35 AM (jz18l)
42
Just a thought: Have you checked barfly's IP address?
-- Erik
Posted by: Erik at August 26, 2006 11:37 AM (H2vXM)
43
This is just another example of the fifth column in America exposing itself.
Posted by: Tood at August 26, 2006 11:52 AM (QRBhQ)
44
A.W.,
I guess it's just you.
The post-publication edits are not, as you pointed out, noted. The piece is simply edited as if it were written that way in 2003. Was the piece edited as recently as August 2006? If so, why?
You seem to believe the details are simply mitigating, but Barfly brings forward the accusation that it was Jon Ham who edited the piece to make Greg Mitchell look back. I would present to you that it was someone working on behalf of Greg Mitchel to make Jon Ham look unethical in the face of Ham's disgust at what Mitchell calls trivial and common fabrication.
Think about it.
Posted by: w3 at August 26, 2006 11:52 AM (DRifx)
45
I must immediately retract my accusation. Looking at the edit history at the Wayback Machine it seems as if the story was edited between November 5, 2003 and January 17, 2004. So it does indeed look as if the details are mitigating even if they are not accurate.
Posted by: w3 at August 26, 2006 11:56 AM (DRifx)
46
Faking the news is nothing new.
In one of his memoirs, Henry Louis Mencken relates that as a cub reporter covering the waterfront for the Sunpapers in Baltimore, he and the other cub reporters for the other 5 dailies in the city decided the weather was too nasty to work, and so they spent the day in a tavern, eating & drinking. To cover themselves, they made up a story which they all turned in to their editors.
The next day, Mencken's editor confronted him: Nice work, he said, this time at least you spelled the names right.
Now if any researcher happened upon that story in the archives of the Sunpapers, and confirmed that all of the daily newspapers in the city had the identical story, he would be certain that the events recounted actually occurred.
But it was all made up.
Making up the news is an old story.
Getting caught by the blogosphere is what's new.
Posted by: Gandalin at August 26, 2006 11:57 AM (ltFM+)
47
Barfly has cut 'n run.
Posted by: Garth Farkley at August 26, 2006 12:02 PM (2y863)
48
AW of Freespeech's comment is not unfair, and it would be tempting to go with it. If they had been true (see, conservatives understand stuff like the subjunctive too, y'know) the additions, though clearly intended to offer youth and inexperience as excuses, would have been fairly minor.
But they're not just nothing. They actually illuminate his original comments interestingly, suggesting a person of low social courage who has an inordinate fear of looking foolish. Which ties in pretty strongly with the criticism of MSM figures as "all on the same page," "living in a bubble," "drawn from the same political class," etc.
So by giving us less information, then having to backtrack and grudgingly give more to cover their asses, they end up by revealing more about themselves than they ever intended.
Posted by: Assistant Village Idiot at August 26, 2006 12:03 PM (1w197)
49
BTW, here's confirmation of the 1969 date from a non-Wikipedia source. (courtesy LGF)
Posted by: Abu Al-Poopypants at August 26, 2006 12:14 PM (QB67L)
50
And here's the edit history according to the archive: http://web.archive.org/web/*/http://www.mediainfo.com/editorandpublisher/headlines/article_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1891030
You have to click on each edit to determine when the excuses, er I mean details, were added.
CY, where did you find the May-November 2003 version of the story or is it your assertion that the story on mediainfo.com to which you linked was the source for your blockquote?
Can you clarify?
Posted by: w3 at August 26, 2006 12:17 PM (DRifx)
51
The version on the WayBack machine does explicitly state that Mitchell was a 19-year-old summer intern:
Still, I felt bad about it for years and (obviously) have never forgotten it. On the other hand, I was, at the time, just 19, it was a summer internship, and I'd only been on the job about a month.
One of the many alarming things about the Jayson Blair scandal is that he never grew up, and no one at The New York Times ever seemed to notice. My ethical breach at 19 in Niagara Falls was bad enough. One expects a bit more from a 27-year-old with years of experience in New York.
Posted by: Lindsay Beyerstein at August 26, 2006 12:43 PM (endTl)
52
Checking the Wayback Machine more closely, not only was the article substantively editted, but the audit trail for changes was faked, as well.
The article was in 2003. There are 3 change entries listed in 2003, and their web address gives a matching datestamp. For example, the change listed as "Nov 05, 2003" has a "20031105072113" embedded in the archive URL. The 2003 updates do not have the bit about being a 19 year old intern.
There are 2 changes listed in 2004. They both have the 19 year old intern bit. However, the url shows the updates occuring in 2006. For example, the change linked on Wayback as "Jan 17, 2004" has embedded "20060826173129". Assuming those are Greenwich timestamps (5 hours ahead of the US east coast), it means the update was added earlier today.
Here's the Wayback change history url for the article in question
http://web.archive.org/web/*/http://www.mediainfo.com/editorandpublisher/headlines/article_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1891030
It shows 5 changes, purporting that 3 were in 2003 and 2 in 2004. Each change link goes to a url of the form http://web.archive.org/web/ TIMESTAMP ARTICLESPECIFIC
The 3 2003 changes have url parts that agree with the date. None of these have the 19 year old intern bit. The 2 changes purporting to be from 2004 have timestamps in with 20060826 in them. The 2 changes are seconds apart and both have the 19 year old intern claim.
It wouldn't shock me if the change history gets altered again. For posterity, the current link for the first version with the 19 year old intern claim purports to be "Jan 19, 2004" but the link goes to the url "http://web.archive.org/web/20060826175353/http://www.mediainfo.com/eandp/news/article_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1891030"
Posted by: Lewis at August 26, 2006 12:57 PM (hfEuj)
53
Lewis, I cannot confirm your claims. The URLs I get are now:
http://web.archive.org/web/20040117221659/http://www.mediainfo.com/editorandpublisher/headlines/article_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1891030
and
http://web.archive.org/web/20041128205109/http://www.mediainfo.com/editorandpublisher/headlines/article_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1891030
As you can see, there is no 2006 timestamp there.
Posted by: w3 at August 26, 2006 01:09 PM (DRifx)
54
I see. When I click on the links to the 2004 versions it resolves to a URL that is formatted as Lewis claims.
When I click on the links to the 2003 versions they resolve to URLs that are formatted as though the date stamp is 2003.
Maybe this time stamp does not indicate what you think it is? I don't know. Curiouser and curiouser.
Posted by: w3 at August 26, 2006 01:20 PM (DRifx)
55
E&P used to be nothing but a classified ad vehicle for journalism jobs. Nobody ever paid attention to its editorial content before Mitchell came on board.
He made it a vehicle for a sort of preserved-in-amber 1960s ethos, dressed in 21st century clothes.
Strangest thing about this story: Why would a 19-year-old whose internship revealed to him that he could not approach strangers then continue on as a newspaperman?
I was a 19-year-old intern a few years earlier than Mitchell, and if I'd found I was that shy about approaching strangers, I would have found another career.
Posted by: Harry Eagar at August 26, 2006 01:24 PM (byoh1)
56
We're forgetting what is most important in all of this:
WAR IS PEACE
FREEDOM IS SLAVERY
IGNORANCE IS STRENGTH
Not to mention Ted Turner's Ministry of Truth self-censorship of decades of cartoons to eliminate what is not politically correct today (i.e. smoking in Tom and Jerry)
Posted by: Symes at August 26, 2006 01:44 PM (EXkFi)
57
Lindsay, the article has also been edited without notation. Do you agree?
I'm guessing that Greg has heard the story of the annual competition at the Prevaricator's Club. The reigning champ tells a tale of having been the only person ever to go UP Niagra Falls in a barrel. The challeneger, in a winning bid, simply says: "I know you did. I saw you do it."
E&P: You lie, we swear to it.
Posted by: Pablo at August 26, 2006 01:55 PM (EErm0)
58
The original at TWM does have the references to him being a 19 year old intern in the fifth and sixth paragraphs -- just not the first one. And the asterisks on the Way Back Machine search page don't necessarily indicate changes in the text. Updating the page could be something like a change in formatting (which does occur here). But today's date in the URL of an update that was supposedly made back in 2004 is disturbing. That's pretty good evidence of a deliberate attempt to mislead people -- why, I can't imagine, since moving information already found later in the article up to the lede doesn't accomplish much. And pretty stupid not to have forged the change all the way back to the beginning. Unless he couldn't.
Posted by: LB at August 26, 2006 02:05 PM (r/50u)
59
The date in the Wayback URL is the date of the last crawl. So unfortunately, Wayback did not actually crawl or archive any versions of the story in 2004. We cannot know for a fact what those stories looked like in 2004 according to wayback.
How did I end up on the live version of a site? or I clicked on X date, but now I am on Y date, how is that possible?
Posted by: w3 at August 26, 2006 02:12 PM (DRifx)
60
Yes, the E&P article was edited without notation. Looks fishy to me, and utterly pointless. Why bother covertly rewriting a lede when the relevant information was already in the article?
Posted by: Lindsay Beyerstein at August 26, 2006 02:15 PM (endTl)
61
Exactly the right question, Lindsay. I think the answer lies in disrespect for your (or his, as it were) readers and your profession. He's just so much more clever than the rest of us.
Posted by: Pablo at August 26, 2006 02:24 PM (EErm0)
62
I believe CY took his blockquote from the link that I sent him yesterday. That version on the MediaInfo site did NOT have the 19-year-old intern info in the lede as of yesterday. It was as I remembered it from May 2003 when I posted my letter on the Poynter site. I don't think there's any question that it got changed yesterday afternoon or late last night.
Posted by: Jon Ham at August 26, 2006 02:30 PM (oaai4)
63
w3, upon further checking, I see the links purporting to be for changes in 2004 behave differently. The 2003 links give a timestamp in 2003 in the url. The links purporting to be in 2004 give an embedded timestamp that appears to be the Greenwich time of when the link was clicked. So, if you click the link twice, 2 minutes apart, you'll get different links, with timestamps 2 minutes apart and representative of the Greenwich time of when you click the links.
Note that the old links persist, at least for a few hours. The first link, which I noted in my post above, still works. I find it hard to believe they save directories for every time someone clicks a link for years.
I've checked other urls with changes in 2004. All of them give timestamps in the url which agree with the purported change date on the Wayback page. I've tried this for pages with multiple stories (e.g. instapundit.com) and single articles in other publications with 2004 changes.
So, Confederate Yankee quoted what he thought to be the story. The story was changed, with an audit log that claimed the change which added the 19 year old intern claim were in 2004. However, Wayback recovery of "intern" links doesn't use Wayback's mechanism for retrieving archives. Wayback uses a uniform mechanism for the 2003 archives and the archives in 2004 for every other article or page I've checked. It's just the change for this article adding the "intern" claim, purported to be in 2004, that doesn't act like an archive. When Confederate Yankee first linked the story, he didn't go searching for an old copy. I don't think he got an old copy. I think the version without the "intern" claim was the version of record as recently as yesterday.
It's odd someone would make 2 changes, separated by months in 2004, that got the date of Niagara closing wrong by 2 years. Especially if the biographical info linked earlier in the comments is correct, i.e. that Mitchell was 19 in 1967 when he interned but was 21 when he actually faked the story.
We know Mitchell faked the original Niagara story because he admitted it. We know the update on his article about his fakery is factually incorrect (since Niagara wasn't shut down in 1967 but in 1969). We have an old interview that puts Mitchell's age at 19 in 1967 and 21 in 1969, when he actually faked the article. We have an audit trail for the addition of the "19 year old intern" claim that does not behave like other articles on Wayback or even like the earlier change logs for that article.
This looks like deliberate fakery, not when Mitchell was 19 or 21 or even a factually incorrect mea culpa added in 2004. It looks like a fake planted this month. I'd appreciated it if those more familiar with Wayback can doublecheck me. Perhaps there is a special nonarchive archive that behaves in this manner for a special class of articles and only in a special date range. At this point, that's not the way to bet.
Posted by: Lewis at August 26, 2006 02:51 PM (hfEuj)
64
Well -- E&P has rewritten things before. In 2005 (I think ..looking for the email) they had an article in which President Bush "refused" to leave the school class he was at after being informed of the attacks. I wrote questioning the use of the word "refused." (I told them that English was only my first language, so maybe I could be wrong as to its meaning.) Interestingly they re-wrote that sentence in the online article.
I want to know how come they are the journalism-editor gurus when they don't know how to use language accurately? Anyway -- they have done rewrites of posted articles with no mea culpas. The question is why is it so important to rewrite this one when, as some others have pointed out, the age and intern info was already in there. I suppose one could say that young shy (??) journalists are allowed to make stuff up.
"Everybody" does. :-(
Posted by: JAL at August 26, 2006 03:07 PM (/XUEA)
65
I agree with you, Lewis. The only point I want to make clear is that when Wayback lacks an actual copy of a page they indicate has changed on a particular date, it will redirect to either the lastest copy they have or a live version of the page. It seems as though the 2004 versions were not archived by Wayback but marked as changed in some way. The links to the 2004 pages seem to redirect to what is there now.
I don't think Wayback ever archived the pages from 2004, only 2003.
Posted by: w3 at August 26, 2006 03:14 PM (DRifx)
66
w3 writes "I don't think Wayback ever archived the pages from 2004, only 2003."
I'd state it more strongly. Wayback was given an indication that updates were made in 2004, but it isn't true. The updates were made this month, after Confederate Yankee posted the article of record. Confederate Yankee posted and linked to the article of record August 25, 2006. At that time (yesterday), it did not contain the "19 year old intern" claim. The 2004 change dates are fakes. The reason Wayback performs differently here than on other articles is because there has been an incomplete attempt to corrupt the audit trail. I strongly suspect the attempt to corrupt the audit trail happened this month and was deliberate.
I don't know enough about how Wayback works to say how they did it. It's probably something simple like setting a change date of record field that, if left blank, picks up when a web crawl notices the change. If such a thing is event driven (eg an RSS feed of changes) an automatic method will record it changing on the day the change was posted, unless specified otherwise.
Posted by: Lewis at August 26, 2006 03:45 PM (hfEuj)
67
Good catch, Confederate Yankee! You've got another scalp.
No surprise that people who defend Hizballah propaganda manipulating the news out of Lebanon would turn out to be filthy liars themselves. Cleaning up the reporting out of Lebanon should never have been a partisan issue to begin with, but for whatever reason the Left has made it one.....
Posted by: LoafingOaf at August 26, 2006 03:51 PM (vFS/o)
68
Apparently to Mitchell and people like him truth and honor are flexible. Mistakes made as a youth just minor mistakes...inconsequntial. And the idea seems to carry on. Why bother with a few cheats and liars in the press?
When I was 19 I was carrying an M-16 and at 21 commanding an infantry platoon. Honor and truthfulness were not inconsequential; they had real consequences and cheats and liars could not be tolerated.
In today's world the media has a huge impact on public opinion, and in a democracy that translates to what our leaders do. Cheats and liars cannot be tolerated; the stakes are just too high. Yet Mitchell can't even see this and the reason is quite clear. Personal moral failure.
Posted by: Quilly Mammoth at August 26, 2006 03:57 PM (MtuFC)
69
Have you checked barfly's IP address?
I'll bet one of Ace's juiceboxs it is somewhere in Brazil ;->
Posted by: Purple Avenger at August 26, 2006 03:59 PM (+u+9/)
70
Barfly musta' passed out in his/her beer!
Posted by: Liberal Loather at August 26, 2006 04:05 PM (SQuIW)
71
OK so you're insane, right?
Posted by: jason at August 26, 2006 04:39 PM (PGGTb)
72
Wait! I got it!
That date - 1967 - was seared...seared in his memory!
Just think - if it indeed happened in 1969 (verified by at least two independent sources, judging by the above comments), then he must have been 21 - much, much closer in age to when he got his first "real" job in journalism.
Posted by: MrJimm at August 26, 2006 05:31 PM (K4jYa)
73
I put up the definitive proof of the timestamp issue just now at LGF, simply because I'm more familiar with what I can get away with, formatting-wise.
Bottom line is that the two '2004' edits were crawled in REVERSE ORDER of how they purport to having been made.
Posted by: The Monster at August 26, 2006 06:36 PM (tw5mW)
74
JAL, E&P and its staff are not gurus of publishing. It was a job-hunting service -- a money-making one for a long time, although the Internet has pretty much eclipsed it now. My boss dropped his subscription at least 8 years ago.
Mitchell got to be editor of a moribund publication and started punching out Tom Haydenish editorials. Except for Jim Romenesko, who will link to anything, nobody in newspapering pays any attention.
In that sense, this is a tropical low -- not even a tempest -- in a very small teapot.
I have enjoyed the dismantling of Mitchell not because he is an important spokesman for my profession. He is not even an unimportant spokesman for my profession. He is a nobody. I have enjoyed it because I think his editorials are a disgrace (and I've told him so) and I enjoy watching incompetents get theirs.
Posted by: Harry Eagar at August 26, 2006 07:16 PM (PXKeq)
75
This is such a non-story, is this a joke? Are there not real stories out there, talk about trying to invent a contreversy. I have seen LGF and Michelle Malkin change content without indications before.
Posted by: RealityCheck at August 26, 2006 09:38 PM (j2vGP)
76
Garth Farkley:
Remember, it isn't cut and run, it "redeployed over the horizon."
Posted by: clark at August 26, 2006 11:39 PM (VmpAc)
77
"And we're supposed to just trust that you wingers aren't covering for each other?"
-- Barfly
Lord Rove hacked the passwords to the Google cache.
Posted by: Laika's Last Woof at August 27, 2006 03:30 AM (XAylz)
78
From June 12, 1969 to November 25, 1969 he only found a weekend to visit the dry falls? Couldn’t find any friends who had been there and talk to them? By July it was a major attraction…
Just lazy, I guess.
I mean, really, 19 or 21 he could have interviewed a few of his buddies at a bar and seen if they had seen the falls. That is *also* tourism. And what is even worse is that with just a bit of background he could have made a puff piece into something a bit less puffy. But that would require *dedication* to being a journalist, adhering to journalistic ethics and going after *more* than the story.
The Perlmutter piece by E&P was bad. And I wrote to them on that before this debacle here. Excuse me if I do not think much of them and *their* dedication to the public.
Posted by: ajacksonian at August 27, 2006 06:34 AM (4rGOl)
79
RealityCheck: "I have seen LGF and Michelle Malkin change content without indications before."
When? What content? Both sites use updates prodigiously. Please advise.
Posted by: Pablo at August 27, 2006 07:34 AM (EErm0)
80
things must be pretty desperate in wingnutland when this is all you guys have to talk about. "ooh, mitchell was 21, not 19, when he faked a quote -- yet another liberal media conspiracy revealed."
get a grip, people. your president (he's definitely not mine) has sent this country swirling down the toilet. two-thirds of America agrees with me. and all you can do use flimsy prextexts to attack his critics. it's sad and pathetic.
Posted by: dt at August 27, 2006 08:31 AM (g/Qrs)
81
Someone calling themselves "RealityCheck" giving assertions as proof. Our schools really do not teach the appreciation of irony enough.
Funny, but when I see non-stories I don't even bother to waste my time to comment. If there's nothing to see, just move along.
Posted by: w3 at August 27, 2006 08:48 AM (DRifx)
82
I think what you have to give Mitchell credit for is the fact that somehow in 1967 he knew the falls were going to be shut down in 1969. Either that or he completely fabricated a story in 1967....LOL. BTW - I am being facetious.
dt - great name - stand for delerium tremons? Are you Barfly in disguise? At any rate - Bush's ratings have been back over 40% for some time now so your two-thirds comment is off track. Care to revise? It seems to me that you and yours spend an awful lot of time piping the same tune about a President that can't run again....LOL. What a waste of time on your part. Got anything else?
Posted by: Specter at August 27, 2006 09:21 AM (ybfXM)
83
Maybe I am not understanding all of this correctly-
Is it the contention of Mr. Mitchell, E&P, Barfly, el al, that aside from the cover-up issue (not really an issue, is it?) that Mr. Mitchell can be forgiven the fact that he manufactured a story out of the ether because he was a 19 year old intern?
I worked for a local paper starting as a senior in high school and the first and most important lesson that was CONSTANTLY hammered into me was being accurate and honest in my reporting. I was told that without the ability to report accurately and with some honest attempt at impartiality, there would be no support from the public, and rightly so.
It doesn't matter if Mr. Mitchell was 19, 39, or 49, the fact that he admitted falsifing a story IS the news. (Yet another cardinal sin-becoming the news rather than reporting it)
In the absense of any genuine remorse and apology, I cannot help but believe that the general public would have little reason to trust anything that Mr. Mitchell, and by association, the organization that publishes him, prints.
Posted by: Richard at August 28, 2006 01:53 PM (12umn)
84
[When they talk to "that person," I hope they remind him that 1967 is long past, but character flaws are forever.]
Kind of like a president being a cocaine user and alcoholic in the '70's.
Just saying.
Posted by: TimWB at August 28, 2006 03:46 PM (n6rxJ)
85
Oh Timmy,
But it is YOU folks who constantly tell us that being addicted to such substances is a DISEASE, not a character flaw.
ADMITTING to having such habits, and successfully kicking them demonstrates great character. And, Timmy, please note that announcing that you've kicked your habit as you step into your limo at Betty Ford is not equivalent to having actually done so.
So, Timmy, you are a typical lib driven only by your NEED to bash Bush. You utterly fail to see that using this particular line of "reasoning" hoists you on your own patoot:
Bush drank, and Mitchell lied way back when.
Mitchell is still lying. Badly.
Posted by: BillSmith at August 28, 2006 05:11 PM (3kalG)
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August 25, 2006
E&P Editor Has First Hand Experience with Staging News
Greg Mitchell, the editor of the influential news trade publication Editor and Publisher has recently raised a spirited defense against questions and allegations that news may have been staged in some instances in the recent Israeli/Hezbollah war in Lebanon, may sound particularly defensive because of his own guilty history of staging news:
Since the press seems to be in full-disclosure mode these days, I want to finally come clean. Back when I worked for the Niagara Falls (N.Y.) Gazette (now the Niagara Gazette), our city editor asked me to find out what tourists thought about an amazing local event: Engineers had literally "turned off" the famous cataracts, diverting water so they could shore up the crumbling rock face. Were visitors disappointed to find a trickle rather than a roar? Or thrilled about witnessing this once-in-a-lifetime stunt?
I never found out. Oh, I went down to the falls, all right, but when I got there, I discovered that I just could not wander up to strangers (even dorky ones wearing funny hats and knee socks) and ask them for their personal opinions, however innocuous. It was a puffball assignment, but that wasn't why I rebelled. I just could not bring myself to do it.
So I sat on a park bench and scribbled out a few fake notes and then went back to the office and wrote my fake story, no doubt quoting someone like Jane Smith from Seattle, honeymooning with her husband Oscar, saying something like, "Gosh, I never knew there was so much rock under there!"
Of course, I got away with it.
Somehow, Greg, I don't think that you did. (h/t
Jon Ham)
Update: Mary Katharine Ham
has more.
Major update: More Fakery?
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
01:41 PM
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1
Sounds like maybe he was loathe to associate with "dorky" strangers. Elitism at an early age, perhaps?
Posted by: Mark Tapscott at August 25, 2006 02:33 PM (kJDEh)
2
A sad example of a man with a self-esteem problem. He needed someone to say, "Really, you can just talk to them, Greg, they won't bite or judge you (well, as anything worse than a "reporter".)" Poor guy.
Posted by: Gabriel Malor at August 25, 2006 02:44 PM (KsQ11)
3
I don't see how anyone could work as a reporter without being able to go up to strangers and ask them questions. Reporters do this all the time. Most people are delighted to give their opinions, especially on something that's not controversial. (They may not have anything interesting to say, but they're happy to say it.) He must have worked very briefly as a reporter and then switched to copy editing.
Posted by: Joanne Jacobs at August 25, 2006 02:46 PM (7Oz0F)
4
Journalism is easy. Basket weaving is hard.
Posted by: yhandlarz at August 25, 2006 03:22 PM (AizGd)
5
"Reporters do this all the time."
Not so much as one might hope, obviously.
Posted by: eric at August 25, 2006 03:24 PM (KR6o5)
6
Of course! Whenever somebody presents a case offering facts and reality to refute your desperate delusions, your only recourse is to attack the messenger. It's got to be challenging for you folks to keep your faith-based reality intact while the real world is constantly reminding you how very, very wrong you are. No wonder you're all so angry and petty. You're sick. Very sick.
Posted by: Lordy Lou at August 25, 2006 03:35 PM (oC1oV)
7
Can someone tell me what Lordy Lou is babbling about? It doesn't appear to be anything related to reporters or journalism, but I'll be damned if I can figure out what it is.
Posted by: Pat at August 25, 2006 03:48 PM (c6S8U)
8
Boy, you guys just don't understand how icky tourists are. They're not cool like journalists at all. They wear funny clothes and they talk funny. They're also not nearly as smart as journalists.
Besides, everyone knows that what few thoughts those gross, icky, obtuse tourists have are so simplistic that reproducing them accurately doesn't absolutely require that you find out what they are by talking (let alone listening) to them.
As for lordy lou, I figure she/he is a journo grad student. She/he is at about that point where they've removed all the critical faculties and have downloaded the crapola generator into the brain but not yet given it the direction rules.
Posted by: JorgXMcKie at August 25, 2006 03:56 PM (OIFDa)
9
Gag. A journalist thinking that he/she is superior to anyone. Gimme a break. The dorkiest geek has dreamed more logic than came from any modern "journalist". The name brings to mind the fact that there used to be janitors (a quite honerable profession)...who are now "sanitary engineers". There used to be reporters (even then, a less than honorable profession) who are now "journalists". To those of us in science, these folks were the D students...who now dream of Pulitzers...a prize virtually as worthless as the Nobel Peace Prize.
Posted by: Da Coyote at August 25, 2006 04:29 PM (9kYWY)
10
OK, spelled honor incorrectly. Sue me!!
Posted by: Da Coyote at August 25, 2006 04:30 PM (9kYWY)
11
Lordy Lou, try not to project so excessively.
Posted by: Jim C. at August 25, 2006 04:34 PM (bb3wC)
12
"So I sat on a park bench and scribbled out a few fake notes and then went back to the office and wrote my fake story, . . ."
In my humble opinion (OK, I've NEVER been humble),
I don't know what the hell "Lordy Lou" is smoking.
Or injecting.
But, Greg is SICK.
Sick to write that fake stuff.
Twice as sick to admit it to the world.
Greg, why don't you just admit you just get off
masturbating all over your printed page
for the edification of us "lesser types" ?
I could accept THAT. {:^)
Posted by: Dan Pursel at August 25, 2006 04:43 PM (eOxCX)
13
Heh, thanks. You didn't have to do that. I was just giving Dad a hard time. But thank you. I hear we'll be seeing each other at the blog conference?
Posted by: Mary Katharine at August 25, 2006 04:50 PM (uuQ+w)
14
"Back when I was 19 and worked for the Niagara Falls (N.Y.) Gazette (now the Niagara Gazette) as a summer intern[ . . .]"
I think its hilarious how you take Greg to task - and do it in such a dishonest way! Why did you omit the part about his being an intern at the time? Did it interfere with your narrative? Sorry. and your readers are as dumb as you: NONE bothered to actually read the article did they? You started on the rum and cokes a little early . . .
Posted by: barfly at August 25, 2006 05:01 PM (LaWWK)
15
Your "mistake" was definitely Coulter-esqe.
Posted by: Barfly at August 25, 2006 05:04 PM (LaWWK)
16
Mary Katharine, I look forward to seeing you there.
It should be a lot of fun.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at August 25, 2006 05:09 PM (BTdrY)
17
It makes no difference if he was an intern when he did this. That's like saying a medical intern is not at fault because he didn't sew a patient back up because he didn't want to.
Posted by: PattyAnn at August 25, 2006 05:12 PM (tDAyS)
18
There's a line in Heinlein's "Rolling Stones" that says "A man who won't design sewers isn't an engineer, he's just a man who knows engineering." Mr. Mitchell just knows journalism.
Posted by: PersonFromPorlock at August 25, 2006 05:21 PM (xU4AB)
19
I too worked for Gannett in scenic upstate New York "in the day". I too was an intern. I too was given icky assignments.
In most cases, I *did* them, figuring it was a necessary part of paying one's dues in the business. In one case I told the editor it was a story idea that was literally insulting to both its subjects and the readers, and told him I wouldn't do it, at the risk of losing my job.
Oh well, those were the good old days...
Posted by: Bucky Dent at August 25, 2006 06:25 PM (sB9Sl)
20
I have read the whole story by Mr. Mitchell, I have a Journalism degree and once upon a time made my living at it. (Based on some comments here this apparently marks me as a low grade idiot, but I toss in my two-cents anyway.)
I appreciate Mr. Mitchell coming clean. What I do not understand is why he was compelled to fake a story rather than do some interviews. Was he too shy? He writes that it was not because it was a “puffball” piece. I clearly recall my first class in news writing in which the professor stated that there were three primary rules, accuracy, accuracy and accuracy. (Maybe J-school was different in the 70’s?) After I had become a working reporter I was assigned an interview I didn’t want to do. I was certainly in no position to be picky about what I covered, but I could not bring myself to do the assignment. I finally went back to the editor and told him I wasn’t even going to try to do the interview. He was not happy, but he assigned the story to someone else. What was the assignment? Interview the family of a local resident who had just been killed in a plane crash. I have never seen any news value in assaulting the bereaved and I rebelled. On the other hand getting people’s reaction to learning that Niagara Falls was missing would be a pretty good story.
Posted by: Rick at August 25, 2006 06:56 PM (Kwn4z)
21
Leaving out the part about him being a 19-year-old intern is flat-out wrong and earns you every bit of scorn you seem to want to heap on Greg -- and you should know better!
That said, what Greg did was certainly wrong. Having worked in all sorts of media for 30+ years, my suspicion is that he was scared of talking to people he didn't know in a scenario he wasn't comfortable in. (Second possibility: He was too lazy, but that sounds implausible). I was an intern once and remember being scared/nervous most of the time I was at the radio station (blessings to the staffer I finally wound up with, who took time to work with me instead of treating me as an annoyance. I wouldn't be surprised if he was every bit as scared as I was.
Posted by: DonK at August 25, 2006 08:47 PM (AjlLX)
22
You also left out the part about him wearing matching socks. That shows he's got real standards, man.
Posted by: Tia at August 25, 2006 09:03 PM (qiocq)
23
Don't waste your time on Barfly or Lordy Lou. They are both clearly morons. It's like trying to teach a hog to read a wristwatch: It only wastes your time and annoys the hog.
Posted by: snakeeater at August 26, 2006 12:00 AM (vOBjc)
24
Greg Mitchell may have been only a 19-year-old intern when committing the act of journalistic dishonesty he described. However, it’s likely that he possessed some journalism experience and training – perhaps in high school or as a college freshman (assuming he was heading into his sophomore year).
Assuming that's the case, Mitchell should have understood he was betraying his employer and readers. To be sure, he would have had more room to excuse himself he if had zero journalism experience. But I suspect this was not the case; otherwise, his editor probably would not have trusted him with this story after one month on the job.
So why did Mitchell do it? I suspect it went beyond what he suggested was his painful shyness. In Mitchell’s account, I sensed an attitude of superiority to those around him -- including his employer who, it seems, he may have felt had insulted him with a "puffball assignment."
Faced with doing a ridiculous story and confident in his superiority -- Mitchell thus felt no compunction to overcome his shyness and do what was required of him. Reporters and people in many jobs, incidentally, do this all the time in order to fulfill their responsibilities. Their character and sense of responsibility enables them to do this.
Interestingly, Mitchell felt confident that he could get away with being dishonest because he was “quoting" out-of-staters; therefore, nobody was going to complain about the bogus quotes and names. Coincidentally, this lack of accountability goes hand in hand with foreign reporting and photojournalism: Both rely heavily on stringers and freelancers (perhaps with not much more experience than Mitchell). They can easily make stuff up. Nobody will complain.
Finally, the “puffball” story Mitchell derides actually could have turned out to be quite interesting in the hands of an able reporter. But as a 19-year-old, Mitchell apparently felt he was headed for bigger and better things -- far beyond interviewing "dorky" tourists.
Posted by: dpaulin at August 26, 2006 01:32 AM (AN+Gn)
25
Don't waste your time on Barfly or Lordy Lou. They are both clearly morons. It's like trying to teach a hog to read a wristwatch: It only wastes your time and annoys the hog.
To the contrary, I owe Barfly in particular a huge debt of gratitude. You see, the text he cited from the current version of the E&P article has been tampered with today, after I wrote this article.
I didn't omit the part about Mitchell being an intern, becuase it wasn't simply wasn't there until after this blog entry was written.
Details here.
Thanks, barfly. I couldn't have done it without you.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at August 26, 2006 01:39 AM (BTdrY)
26
So the Mitchell "excuse" (as it were) for the fake Niagra piece is that he was just "young and stupid"?
OK, I can buy that - but now he's not young anymore, so why is he still so stupid ;->
Posted by: Purple Avenger at August 26, 2006 04:26 AM (+u+9/)
27
Nice job, barfly! What say you, DonK?
Posted by: Pablo at August 26, 2006 01:13 PM (EErm0)
28
The crucial changes to the article occurred on January 17, 2004 when the website format underwent a change.
The original article doesn't mention that he was a intern.
http://www.zoominfo.com/people/Mitchell_Greg_743122.aspx
On Feb 4, 2002 he was promoted and his age was 54.
From Wikipedia: Niagara falls was dammed in June 1969 to remove the Talus under the falls (and the temporary dam was dynamited in November).
2002 - 1969 = 33 .. So in February Greg was at least 21. In June he was 21 or 22 and out of college - which means this was his first job and not a "summer internship"
1. He consistently lied about how old he was.
2. He consistently lied about when the story happened.
3. The "summer internship" was likely a lie which is why there are two years+ of time displacement in the story.
In Greg's defense this is likely to be the result of cognitive dissonance (you rewrite your memories so they make a better read).
However it indicates that he really isn't honest with himself, and by extention, with us.
His stealth editing of the piece to emphasize his "innocence" without correcting the obvious factual errors on which the presumption of "innocence" is based, is simply reinforces the fact that he isn't honest and all of his articles should be read very critically.
Posted by: JustTheFacts at August 26, 2006 01:29 PM (kHxBu)
29
"Barfly" is merely the latest victim of the "Progressive" experience" make a big "Aha!!!" deal, only to see it crumble to "Oops."
Mary Mapes can tell Barfly all about it, if she's recovered from her denial.
Cordially...
Posted by: Rick at August 26, 2006 02:07 PM (t5P1h)
30
Rick, I suspect you are a nice man.
And, I don't want to pick a fight.
But, you said
"Mary Mapes can tell Barfly all about it, if she's recovered from her denial."
I'm sorry, but Mary Mapes "recovering from her denial" is just about as likely as Saddam saying,
"Please forgive me. Upon considerable reflection over past events, I realize I was really not a very nice man in several areas."
A Zebra just CAN NOT change its . . .
Posted by: Dan Pursel at August 26, 2006 02:50 PM (eOxCX)
31
In 1952 or 53, I was assigned by The Buffalo [Evening] News to interview visitors to Niagara Falls on their reaction to viewing the collapsed rockpile of the abutting Scholkopf Generator plant earlier in the week. It was a Sunday and the crowd was large and impressed. I enjoyed talking to them and their comments. Whether it was a fitting assignment for recent grad school product, or not, was beside the point. There were a lot of names, local and tourist, which meant, to me, a lot of people buying the paper the next day to read about themselves. Names make news, remember? The story was played on the front or split page, as I member.
Posted by: al popiel at August 27, 2006 08:57 PM (VtLd7)
32
According to Wikipedia, the major “shut down” of Niagara Falls (the American side) occurred in 1969, not 1967. I don’t know how long Mr. Mitchell worked as an intern at the Niagara Falls Gazette, or how many years he spent as a 19 year-old, but he may want to verify he is remembering his facts correctly.
Fair warning: there has been much work done on the Falls and this has probably included any number of at least partial water diversions. Mr. Mitchell may be referring to some other event.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Niagara_Falls#Preservation_efforts
"In addition to the effects of diversion of water to the power stations, erosion control efforts have included underwater weirs to redirect the most damaging currents, and actual mechanical strengthening of the top of the Falls. The most dramatic such work was performed in 1969. In June of that year, the Niagara River was completely diverted away from the American Falls for several months through the building of a temporary rock and earth dam (clearly visible in the photo at right), effectively shutting off the American Falls.5"
Posted by: Agim Zabeli at August 28, 2006 12:26 PM (QYQVO)
33
No one here is addressing the issues raised by Greg Mitchell in his article. Your perspective must be bankrupt when you can no longer address the issues and choose instead to attack the messenger to undermine the power of the article. I wonder how many of you have actually read it? It seems your intellectual curiousity is about as ambitious and rigid as our Supreme Leader's. You all seem quite willing to abandon reality for your own version of it. Your paranoid delusions about this issue are on par with those who think the Earth is flat, the moon landing was staged, the Holocaust never happened, and 9/11 was a Jewish plot. In other words- you're all wacky. Your selective morality disgusts me. It is the quintessence of hypocrisy. The fact is Israel has killed about 1600 innocent civilians in Lebanon. You can choose to pretend this never happened but it doesn't change the fact that it did.
Posted by: Lordy Lou at August 28, 2006 04:09 PM (oC1oV)
34
just trolling thru, read the comment by Lordy Lou and can't stop myself from commenting.
Lou... put the koolaid down before you drown in it. It appears you're just another apologist for the Hezbo. Try to answer this without making my brain bleed, what should Israel have done? Sit by patiently while rockets were fired into residential areas, until Hezbo ran out of rockets or Lebanese civilians to hide behind. Pray tell Lou, how DO YOU protect yourself if the enemy hides among the populace?? Wouldn't the death toll have been a little more disproportinal had not the Iraelis cared about the innocents, whereas Hezbo obviously did not. I know, now your brain is bleeding.
Posted by: wonkanator at August 29, 2006 11:55 AM (oBHYb)
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Cluster Bomb Inquiry?
According to the New York Times, the United States has initiated an investigation into the use of cluster bombs in South Lebanon during the recent Israeli War against Hezbollah terrorists:
The State Department is investigating whether Israel's use of American-made cluster bombs in southern Lebanon violated secret agreements with the United States that restrict when it can employ such weapons, two officials said.
The investigation by the department's Office of Defense Trade Controls began this week, after reports that three types of American cluster munitions, anti-personnel weapons that spray bomblets over a wide area, have been found in many areas of southern Lebanon and were responsible for civilian casualties.
For those of you that might not be familiar with the concept of cluster munitions, they different than more traditional explosives in that instead of relying on one large explosive projectile or multiple large explosive projectiles to destroy a target, they deploy a shell or bomb containing many smaller grenade-like bombs (submunitions) over a wider area, saturating a larger area with one cluster munition, theoretically decreasing the number of large explosives needed to take out an area target, such as a troop concentration, or in this instance most likely in the Israeli campaign against Hezbollah, rocket-launching sites. It may be simpler to compare it to the difference between using a rifle and a shotgun.
The recognized downside of cluster munitions are two-fold:
- cluster munitions are designed as area weapons, and are not capable of a pin-point strike to their wide dispersal
- the submunitions in traditional cluster bombs have a failure rate of between 2%-4% according to my subject matter expert, John Donovan. this means that between 2% and 4% of the submunitions fail to explode, essentially "mining" the area struck with unexploded ordinance
This does not mean cluster bombs are "bad" any more than any other physical object can be "good" or "bad," but knowing the characteristics of such weapons prescribes how they should be used.
It is generally accepted conventional wisdom that cluster munitions are acceptable area munitions against area targets such as troop and enemy vehicle or supply concentrations and certain kinds of entrenched positions. They are recognized as being dangerous to use in areas where civilians may fall victim to the immediate widespread blast pattern, or may return to encounter unexploded submunitions before engineering units can dispose of them. It is also not advisable to use cluster munitions in areas where you expect that your own troops may advance, as these same submunitions could cause casualties to friendly troops.
It is worth noting that no munition of any design is "dud-proof," but cluster munitions are more prone to fail to detonate simply because they require a larger number of separate charges to work, and some more modern cluster submunitions are designed to self destruct to reduce risk to civilian and soldier alike.
Back to the
Times article:
The inquiry is likely to focus on whether Israel properly informed the United States about its use of the weapons and whether targets were strictly military. So far, the State Department is relying on reports from United Nations personnel and nongovernmental organizations in southern Lebanon, the officials said.
David Siegel, a spokesman for the Israeli Embassy, said, “We have not been informed about any such inquiry, and when we are we would be happy to respond.”
Officials were granted anonymity to discuss the investigation because it involves sensitive diplomatic issues and agreements that have been kept secret for years.
The agreements that govern Israel's use of American cluster munitions go back to the 1970's, when the first sales of the weapons occurred, but the details of them have never been publicly confirmed. The first one was signed in 1976 and later reaffirmed in 1978 after an Israeli incursion into Lebanon. News accounts over the years have said that they require that the munitions be used only against organized Arab armies and clearly defined military targets under conditions similar to the Arab-Israeli wars of 1967 and 1973.
A Congressional investigation after Israel's 1982 invasion of Lebanon found that Israel had used the weapons against civilian areas in violation of the agreements. In response, the Reagan administration imposed a six-year ban on further sales of cluster weapons to Israel.
Israeli officials acknowledged soon after their offensive began last month that they were using cluster munitions against rocket sites and other military targets. While Hezbollah positions were frequently hidden in civilian areas, Israeli officials said their intention was to use cluster bombs in open terrain.
The question seems to be precisely what the language of any such agreement would be, especially in how the agreement describes what constitutes "clearly defined military targets."
I'm merely pontificating here, but I suspect that if such an inquiry is underway, Israel will likely make the argument that a mobile missile launching platform constitutes a "clearly-defined military target." One could easily make a strong case that a mobile Katyusha rocket launcher away from a civilian concentration is a legitimate target, as shown in the this example from
camera.org:
This example of a short-range Qassam rocket firing site from
weaponssurvey.com apparently located in an orchard would also seem to be a valid target:
And at least some of the cluster munitions used by Israel in Lebanon seem to have been targeted at rural areas, as is the case of
this unexploded M-42 submunition found in a banana grove near (but not in) the village of El Maalliye. If this banana grove was away from homes and the banana grove was being used as a site to launch rockets against Israel, the Israelis can likely make a case that the use of cluster munitions in this instance is acceptable.
This however, is much more difficult to justify. The munition is undoubtedly a cluster munition, and the site is said to be just 100 meters from the main Lebanese hospital in Tibnin. John Donovan
identified this exact submunition as an M-42.
The
Times article states further:
But a report released Wednesday by the United Nations Mine Action Coordination Center, which has personnel in Lebanon searching for unexploded ordnance, said it had found unexploded bomblets, including hundreds of American types, in 249 locations south of the Litani River.
The report said American munitions found included 559 M-42's, an anti-personnel bomblet used in 105-millimeter artillery shells; 663 M-77's, a submunition found in M-26 rockets; and 5 BLU-63's, a bomblet found in the CBU-26 cluster bomb. Also found were 608 M-85's, an Israeli-made submunition.
What the
Times article does not state is precisely where 1,835 were found.
If the majority of these submunitions were found to be in locations consistent with what the agreement shows to be viable military targets, then Israel should be cleared fairly simply. If however, a substantial number of submunitions were recovered from villages and cities, then Israel's use of cluster munitions may have a legitimate basis to be called into question.
It is important to note, however, that at this time only United Nations personnel and nongovernmental organizations (perhaps Hezbollah itself) have raised these allegations.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
10:47 AM
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1
It is also possible that an Improved Conventional Munition such as the M483 155mm projectile could have been used. The M483 also uses the M77 submunition. Check out this link for more detailed info: http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/munitions/dpicm.htm
Posted by: Wiskey-88 at August 25, 2006 11:28 AM (pz11M)
2
The sad thing is, that no matter whether or not it is proved that these were "valid military" targets, nobody will ever know - at least not the people who follow MSM. That's because they will never, ever report that Israel had the right to use these weapons.
Posted by: Specter at August 25, 2006 12:25 PM (ybfXM)
3
FYI: The article is accompanied by a map which shows where the cluster bomb evidence has been found.....some of which is north of the Latani.
Posted by: Donna at August 25, 2006 01:11 PM (yU1kU)
4
I am less concerned about the munitions Israel employed in countering the incessant onslaught of Hezbollah attacks than I am about the NYT YET AGAIN divulging US secrets. Is there no stopping the irresponsible reporting/behavior of the NYT short of using cluster munitions on them?
Posted by: Old Soldier at August 25, 2006 01:39 PM (X2tAw)
5
One "human factors" issue not mentioned is that unexploded cluster munitions can be picked up and placed in another location without the bomblet ever exploding. Given the fauxtography going on in Lebanon, this wouldn't surprise me one bit.
Of course one must be careful in handling the buggers. One of my field engineers experienced one detonating after it was picked up by a companion in the first Gulf War and placed under his car seat. Alan got away with long term ringing in his ears, while the driver (who had picked it up) was killed.
Posted by: sammy small at August 25, 2006 03:39 PM (nyxv/)
6
“This does not mean cluster bombs are “bad” any more than any other physical object can be “good” or “bad,” but knowing the characteristics of such weapons prescribes how they should be used.”
These weapons, which Israel has been dropping in civilian areas of Lebanon are bad objects. Man-made objects are created with intent, and the intent in this case is to kill or wound as many people as possible. This is a cowardly weapon, the type that is well suited to imperial wars, where the consideration of protecting soldiers outweighs any thought of preventing injury to civilians.
That Israel would use this kind of “shotgun” weapon in civilian areas shows how little regard it has for innocent life. And to justify it by saying Hezbollah is using civilians as “human shields” suggests even that civilians are being directly targeted. Shouldn’t a “rifle” approach be used instead of “shotgun” if you truly care about the civilian population?
And how ironic that you are trying to avenge suicide bombings which use shrapnel by killing other innocent civilians with shrapnel bombs.
Oh yes, these are bad objects and the blood is partially on our hands.
Posted by: Onray at August 25, 2006 11:43 PM (3J9mN)
7
Do you think the Islamist and the DisUnited Nations will lie about where they find the cluster bombs? They will lie 100% and the gullible public will eat it up. I read today where they displayed one of the 'cluster' bombs which was accurately identified (not by the lying Islamist or PC news crowd) later as a battery.
How many more lies will he antique MSM have to tell, and get caught, before even the left wingers will admit that all they read and hear from the antique media types is 99% lies and 1% hype? Not enough lies can be broadcast or printed, as long as it fits their anti-American, anti-Israel rants.
Posted by: Scrapiron at August 25, 2006 11:56 PM (fEnUg)
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August 24, 2006
Family Business
My brother, to put it mildly is warped.
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Zombie News
Zombie's debunking of the Red Cross ambulance hoax hit primetime news, and as always, Allah has the video.
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Hezbollah's White Phosphorus Lies: Part 2, the Conclusive Debunking
Remember less than a month ago when I wrote this?
It was only a matter of time before Hezbollah and their gullible dupes in the media began applying the Terrorist Propaganda Cook Book to the present war in Lebanon, accusing Israel forces of using chemical and other "illegal weapons" against civilians.
The Sydney Morning Herald was all too willing to print these suspiciously vague allegations:
Killed by Israeli air raids, the Lebanese dead are charred in a way local doctors, who have lived through years of civil war and Israeli occupation, say they have not seen before.
Bachir Cham, a Belgian-Lebanese doctor at the Southern Medical Centre in Sidon, received eight bodies after an Israeli air raid on nearby Rmeili which he said exhibited such wounds.
He has taken 24 samples from the bodies to test what killed them. He believes it is a chemical.
Cham said the bodies of some victims were "black as shoes, so they are definitely using chemical weapons. They are all black but their hair and skin is intact so they are not really burnt. It is something else."
"If you burnt someone with petrol their hair would burn and their skin would burn down to the bone. The Israelis are 100 per cent using chemical weapons."
I stated that:
The arguments are recycled, the evidence contrived; there is no credible evidence that chemical or white phosphorus weapons are being used to target Lebanese civilians, and it is telling that the media are all too willing to be led down this same path of lies again.
It turns out that I was right (thanks to
LGF for finding the video). The debunkings of the
Greg Mitchell's of the world are coming so fast I can hardly keep up with them...
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White phosphorous in contact with human skin burns all the way through and keeps burning until the phosphorous is consumed. The obvious sign is big, gaping, burning holes, not what was described.
Posted by: olddawg at August 24, 2006 08:32 PM (Si1mC)
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All Your Fakes Are Belong To Us
Bad Jawa. Great Video.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
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Self-Inflicted Wounds
First published as a weekly in 1884 as The Journalist, Editor & Publisher (E&P) is a monthly journal covering the North American newspaper industry.
Since 2002, Greg Mitchell has been the Editor of
E&P, and he writes both an online and print column. While I've never read the print version, I have occasionally read Mitchell's online
Pressing Issues column, and have actually written about what he has had to say twice in the past.
Click. Print. Bang. was a reaction to the mind of Mitchell, as in his column he advocated that the media should attempt to
actively undermine (subscriber-only) the current U.S. President:
No matter which party they generally favor or political stripes they wear, newspapers and other media outlets need to confront the fact that America faces a crisis almost without equal in recent decades.
Our president, in a time of war, terrorism and nuclear intrigue, will likely remain in office for another 33 months, with crushingly low approval ratings that are still inching lower. Facing a similar problem, voters had a chance to quickly toss Jimmy Carter out of office, and did so. With a similar lengthy period left on his White House lease, Richard Nixon quit, facing impeachment. Neither outcome is at hand this time.
Lacking an impeachable offense and disappointed that Bush was reelected to a second term, Mitchell made the following alarmist cry to the journalistic community:
The alarm should be bi-partisan. Many Republicans fear their president's image as a bumbler will hurt their party for years. The rest may fret about the almost certain paralysis within the administration, or a reversal of certain favorite policies. A Gallup poll this week revealed that 44% of Republicans want some or all troops brought home from Iraq. Do they really believe that their president will do that any time soon, if ever?
Democrats, meanwhile, cross their fingers that Bush doesn't do something really stupid -- i.e. nuke Iran -- while they try to win control of at least one house in Congress by doing nothing yet somehow earning (they hope) the anti-Bush vote.
Meanwhile, a severely weakened president retains, and has shown he is willing to use, all of his commander-in-chief authority, and then some.
Mitchell's tone is both decidedly shrill and purposefully ominous, as he advocates his solution (while saying he doesn't) for what he seems to regard as the Bush problem.
I don't have a solution myself now, although all pleas for serious probes, journalistic or official, of the many alleged White House misdeeds should be heeded. But my point here is simply to start the discussion, and urge that the media, first, recognize that the crisis—or, if you want to say, impending crisis -- exists, and begin to explore the ways to confront it.
Not content with the news being reported by the media about the administration, Mitchell was publicly pushing for a confrontational antagonistic policy to be used to try to undermine the White House; a smear campaign to "start the discussion." He pushes, in no uncertain terms, to use the media to dig up scandals, building doubts and fears (his warning that people should, "cross their fingers that Bush doesn't do something really stupid -- i.e. nuke Iran" is a clear indication of his mindset).
What he hopes to accomplish by building distrust and fear of the White House in an influential media is open to interpretation, but based upon his earlier comments that Bush seemed neither likely to be impeached nor voted out, Mitchell seems to hope that with enough fear-mongering, someone sufficiently alarmed by the kind of coverage he hopes to gin up might find another way to remove Bush from office.
Not just hostile to the President, however, Mitchell has gone out of his way to
condemn Israel's response to Hezbollah's rain of rockets on Israeli civilian targets, while dismissing Hezbollah's attempts at mass murder:
The word “rockets” makes Hezbollah's terror weapon of choice seem very space age, but they are in fact crude, unguided and with limited range – nothing like the U.S. prime grade weapons on the Israeli side. The vast majority of them land in the water or an empty field or explode in the air.
Mitchell again made his opinion on who was more at fault in the recent Hezbollah-triggered war in
this column, and as you might expect, Mitchell placed the blame for Lebanese deaths squarely upon Israel and the White House, refusing to even mention Hezbollah's role in the column except to say that Israel created it.
Given his obvious biases, it should have been no surprise when Mitchell released
this first part of a two-part column yesterday, attacking those bloggers who questioned the manipulation and staging of photos from some photojournalists in the recent war, primarily fought in Lebanon. His defense should have been expected, as every example of staged or manipulated stories and photographs attacked Israel, and the exposure of this journalistic fraud undermined the anti-Israeli view Mitchell has clearly decided to advocate.
Allahpundit at
Hot Air rightfully
took Mitchell's column to task, pointing out that clear examples of journalistic fraud did in fact occur, and catches Mitchell misrepresenting the comments made by Bryan Denton, a U.S. photojournalist witness to the sight of some staging performed by Lebanese wire service photographers.
Allah also notes that while Mitchell blasts bloggers and the suspicions and allegations they've made of staged photos, he pointedly refuses to discuss the fact that a German television station captured live video showing
just such staging as it occurred in Qana. One can only imagine how much effort Mitchell took to avoid this
well-documented proof that one of the most influential stories of the Hezbollah-Israeli war, the so-called Red Cross ambulance attack, was, in fact, almost certainly a complete fraud.
All of this sets up today's editorial from Mitchell,
In Defense of War Photographers: Part II, in which Mitchell continues:
In a column here on Tuesday, I mounted a defense of the overwhelming number of press photographers in the Middle East who bravely, under horrid conditions, in recent weeks have sent back graphic and revealing pictures from the war zones, only to be smeared, as a group, by rightwing bloggers aiming, as always, to discredit the media as a whole.
Which is not to say that this is much ado about nothing. Obviously, Adnan Hajj, the Reuters photographer who doctored at least two images, deserved to be dismissed. A handful of other pictures snapped by others warrant investigation. In a few cases, caption information was wrong or misleading, and required correction. In addition, the controversy has sparked an overdue discussion -- some of it here at E&P -- on the credibility of all photography in the Photoshop age and the wide use of local stringers abroad in a time of cutbacks in supervision.
But, in general, the serious charges and wacky conspiracy theories against the photographers, and their news organizations, are largely unfounded, and politically driven, while at times raising valid questions, such as what represents "staging."
Were press photographers smeared, as Mitchell states, as a group?
I have heard no one doubting that news photographers have put their lives on the line to capture stories, and even when what they capture on film isn't always popular or what we want to hear in the past, we've debated it
without clearly taking sides based upon ideology.
I can state for my part that I questioned the overall story the media was presenting from Qana based upon seeming inconsistencies between the stories and the photographic evidence. These questions raised by myself and others helped get an investigation launched—thought Mitchell doubtlessly disproves of it, as it is not the kind of investigation that serves the interests Mitchell's observed bias.
This success in rooting out some apparent fraud led to bloggers to look more closely at the other media information coming out of Lebanon for more, where other suspicious photos and stories emerged.
Did rightwing bloggers attempt to smear the entire media, as Mitchell alleges, or were they targeting specific questionable stories, specific questionable photographs, and photographers exhibiting a suspicious pattern of behavior?
The answer, quite obvious to those that actually read the blog posts and the commentary they generated, is that bloggers investigating specific instances uncovered general problems with how the media gathered news and verified the accuracy of the information, a fact that Mitchell begrudgingly admits. I'd like to know which "wacky conspiracy theories" Mitchell was referring to, as the Qana staging episode and the Red Cross ambulance stories most thought implausible when first proposed by bloggers, turned out to be absolutely correct.
In a significant number of the more widely disseminated blog posts asking questions and making accusations about suspicious media accounts, the suspicions of bloggers turned out to be quite well-founded. Contrary to Mitchell's suggestions, quite a few—more than a handful—of the more widely regarded questions raised by bloggers were exposed apparent staging or fraud--a remarkable achievement by people thousands of miles away from the story, doing the fact-checking and analysis that the media should have been doing, but much to their embarrassment, often did not.
Mitchell, apparently then unable to go much further on his own, decides to simply turn to the Lightstalkers photography forum, and quote heavily from media photographers denying that manipulation and staging took place. And while the much-respected Tim Fadek can say all he wants that the scene in Qana wasn't staged, and other photographers choose to take his observations as fact, when I see with my own eyes on YouTube that
it was indeed directed by none other than Mr. Green Helmet himself, I have every right to doubt the veracity of Mr. Fadek and other photographers that denied Qana was staged, along with the media organizations that try to act that such compelling evidence of malfeasance does not exist.
I suspect that Mitchell's next groundbreaking column will expose that according to interviews with inmates at San Quentin, 99% are actually innocent.
This E&P editorial chooses to dodge the real issues of the media's vetting of the accuracy of the stories and photographs that they chose to print coming out of Lebanon and other venues, just as they dodged how so many pictures and events ever had reason to be questioned in the first place.
Greg Mitchell, Editor of
Editor & Publisher shows himself to be a prime example of exactly what bloggers fear most in the media; a newscrafter, not a newsman, with a quite specific and heavily partisan agenda. He seems terrified that if the public actually looked too closely at how the sometimes tainted product of the news business is manufactured, they might discover it has fewer quality checks than a
disposable diaper, and sadly, sometimes ends up smelling much the same.
David Perlmutter wrote of the problems with photojournalism
last week:
I'm not sure, however, if the craft I love is being murdered, committing suicide, or both.
A simple glance at such industry leaders as Greg Mitchell suggests that not only are the wounds are indeed self-inflicted, but that some newscrafters can't keep their fingers from jerking the trigger.
Update: Allah reacts as well.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
01:59 PM
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1
An excellent takedown of Greg Mitchell. I've taken issue with his advocacy journalism in the past, and have learned not to take anything he says too seriously. My question is, do other journalists really think he's the best person to run the industry's premier trade publication? I personally can't see how anyone can deny his full blown case of BDS, especially after he wrote that ridiculous piece titled, "Will Press Put Out Fire on Iran?"
Posted by: Granddaddy Long Legs at August 24, 2006 02:49 PM (q73o1)
2
"...if the public actually looked too closely at how the sometimes tainted product of the news business is manufactured, they might discover it has fewer quality checks than a disposable diaper..."
...and is a lot harder to change.
Posted by: Jim Treacher at August 24, 2006 03:19 PM (28pwE)
3
And while the much-respected Tim Fadek
And while the formerly much-respected Tim Fadek... ;->
Posted by: Purple Avenger at August 24, 2006 03:49 PM (c/xwT)
4
Yes, there's no doubting that E&P's Greg Mitchell gets wackier by the day. Obviously he appeals to his audience: Bush-hating newspapermen who predominate in newspaper journalism.
Some in the MSM, on the other hand, may be catching onto Mitchell -- something that was underscored a few weeks ago when a prominent newspaper editor in Colorado pronounced him "irrelevant." This column, I sensed, struck a nerver in some MSM quarters; perhaps Mitchell's days are in fact numbered.
It's sad that Mitchell fails to realize that's he's living in another era -- an issue I also blogged about in: "Iran's Got Nukes! What me worry?"
Ultimately, Mitchell symbolizes all that is wrong with agenda-driven senior editors and journalists in the MSM who came of age during Watergate and the Vietnam War. I wonder if Mitchell still pecks away at an old-fashioned typewriter.
Posted by: David Paulin at August 24, 2006 09:38 PM (GIL7z)
5
Wow. I did my own analysis of his opinion piece at my blog. I had no idea he was the friggin' editor of the O&E. I'm honestly shocked that someone so devoid of the ability to make a rational arguement could be in charge.
Posted by: EdBanky at August 25, 2006 12:41 PM (ye7jq)
6
I think what we're facing here is the difference between guilt- and shame/face-based honor values. What we used to call Western Civilization used to have as a fundamental principle that the individual's motives and actions were inherently honorable or dishonorable, in the all-seeing-eye of God, if not of man. One who commits dishonorable acts feels guilt about them.
A shame-based concept of honor, as we have seen in Japan, the Islamic world, and closer to home in wackademia or ghetto culture, the act itself is not dishonorable so much as is the revelation of the act.
A Muslim woman who complains that she has been raped is bringing dishonor on the male members of her family, whose manhood is challenged because should have protected her from being raped. In order to save face, they must therefore disbelieve the charge of rape, and decide that she was a willing participant in the act, which then justifies killing her to restore the family honor.
When Bill Cosby or Juan Williams (As Saul became Paul, he sounds like he needs a new name to represent his recent conversion!) discuss shortcomings within the black community, they have brought dishonor on that community, and must be punished. Actual criminals have more respect than 'snitches'.
When Jeff Goldstein eviscerates 'higher education', daring to show us rubes the tools being used to indoctrinate our children, he becomes the target of blinding rage, descending from garden-variety moonbattery into the black hole of cyberstalking.
When the Dextrosphere shows outright fakery such as done by Hajj, or the lesser manipulations such as Flat Fatima's serial homelessness, the Passion of the Toys, or the sundry Hezbowood productions of Green Helmet, the damage to the honor of the MSM is not seen as caused by their wrongful acts, but of our daring to mention them.
"A small child said 'Mommy, why is the man with the crown naked?'. Fortunately, he was immediately killed by Imperial Security agents, and the matter was soon forgotten. Damn fine threads, Your Majesty!"
Posted by: The Monster at August 25, 2006 11:35 PM (tw5mW)
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August 23, 2006
Bitter Much?
CNN's web team doesn't appear to be a big fan of Joe Lieberman. While the actual article carries the headline, "Lieberman secures spot on November ballot," the Web team decided this was a fitting link:
This would presumably be the same "fine folks" that brought us
this gem in July:
Top-notch. Professional.
Pithy.
This is CNN.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
11:27 AM
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Well, did you actually read that bit about Bush?
"He loves to cuss, gets a jolly when a mountain biker wipes out trying to keep up with him, and now we're learning that the first frat boy loves flatulence jokes. A top insider let that slip when explaining why President Bush is paranoid around women, always worried about his behavior. But he's still a funny, earthy guy who, for example, can't get enough of fart jokes. He's also known to cut a few for laughs, especially when greeting new young aides, but forget about getting people to gas about that."
Now that's top-notch and professional...
Posted by: legion at August 23, 2006 01:40 PM (3eWKF)
2
All valid points, legion.
I just wish Bush would just quietly get sucked off by interns in secret.
Top-notch and professional...
Posted by: Hoodlumman at August 23, 2006 02:27 PM (FAZ6l)
3
Whats unprofessional about that? I just came from a meeting with a vendor where I was letting loose with pickled cabbage powered stink bombs the entire time. It's an effective negotiating tool in a closed room. She would have given me the parts for free if I had kept her in there any longer. As it was she escaped with just some mild discomfort and I got a decent price. I thought about eating chili and eggs for breakfast to really drive my point home but now I'm glad I didn't.
the above is all b/s but man i love a good fart joke.
Posted by: chad at August 23, 2006 02:28 PM (lNQg8)
4
Shorter Confederate Yankee:
"Sore Loserman? Nope, doesn't ring a bell."
Posted by: Doug at August 23, 2006 03:24 PM (jd34Q)
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"The most trusted name in"...ummm, ahh, infomercials. Yea, infomercials!
Posted by: Purple Avenger at August 23, 2006 05:19 PM (c/xwT)
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They have major problems with their headlines. In CNN World, Bushitler is the Primary Loser, but the article is about Lieberman?
Posted by: pbrown at August 23, 2006 06:46 PM (7b6pT)
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Bushitler is the Primary Loser, but the article is about Lieberman?
As Ace would say -- "layers".
Posted by: Purple Avenger at August 23, 2006 07:41 PM (c/xwT)
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They also aren't fans of Homes, northwest passengers, mt lions, pythons and Paramount.
oh my...
slow news day, I guess...
Posted by: matt a at August 24, 2006 08:15 AM (GvAmg)
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Why do you watche CNN anyway?? I gave up years ago.
As to Bush, he was a DKE in school as I recall. That is normal behavior for that fraternity.
Posted by: David Caskey at August 24, 2006 11:15 AM (6wTpy)
10
that headline is a very fair headline, because Lieberman's placement on the ballot is remarkable only because he lost his primary campaign. Otherwise it is not newsworthy. Name the last person to lose a primary and run in that general.
Posted by: terrapinbeach at August 28, 2006 01:34 PM (JKQGb)
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Carolina FreedomNet 2006
The John Locke Foundation will be hosting a half-day blogger conference, Carolina FreedomNet 2006, open to all on Saturday, October 7 in Greensboro, North Carolina, from 8:00 AM-2:00 PM.
I've been invited to be on the 8:45 AM-10:15 AM
Local vs. Global: What Should Be Your Blog's Focus? panel with Lorie Byrd of
Wizbang, Sam Hieb of
Sam's Notes, and
Sister Toldjah.
A second panel of will attempt to answer the question of
How Has The Blogging Phenomenon Affected Politics and Political Discourse?, and will feature
Townhall.com's Mary Katharine Ham, Jeff Taylor of
The Meck Deck, Scott Elliott of
Election Projection and Josh Manchester of
The Adventures of Chester.
Scott Johnson of
Powerline will be giving the keynote speech, titled
The 61st Minute: Inside the Eye of Hurricane Dan.
If interested in attending, you can register for
Carolina FreedomNet 2006 here.
I hope to see you there.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
10:57 AM
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Would love to be there, considering some of my most favorite bloggers will be speaking. Unfortunately I live on the other side of the world.
Any chance of some sort of live link-up?
In any case best wishes and hope it goes well.
Posted by: The Polarizer at August 23, 2006 11:27 AM (mfkDG)
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"Backdoor Draft?" Marines Respond
Marines on the Inactive Ready Reserve (IRR) are being recalled to active duty consistent with the commitment they signed up for, and some of the predictably clueless are claiming that this constitutes a "backdoor draft," when it is of course nothing of the sort.
Two very irritated Marine bloggers, Paul and Brando of
Brandodojo ripped into these folks
last night.
From Paul in the comments of that post:
People like to call this a "back door draft" because they're idiots and are intentionally using misleading rhetoric to bring up emotions from the Vietnam war, which is the last time a draft was used. They use "backdoor" as if the government is using some sneaky loophole, but this also isn't true. All a servicemember has to do is open up their SRB and look at their contract and read what it says. It's not even in "fine print." It's right there. In my case it says, plain as day, 5 years active, 3 years IRR.
Back to my main point: The offensive part of the "backdoor draft" bullshit is that it's used by two groups of people: 1) People who have never served 2) People who have served and refuse to be accountable for their signature.
I don't have a problem with people being pissed about it -- they're leaving their new lives or whatever and going to a shithole country where they might blow up -- everyone I know was pissed but they still went. That's what matters.
In no uncertain terms, this is something that every Marine signs up for, and is clearly part of their commitment. Implying this is sneaky or underhanded behavior and not a standard part of a Marine's service commitment is simply dishonest.
* * *
Interestingly enough, liberal
Ron Chusid cites the CNN article linked above and then states:
If actions such as this continue the trend towards decreased voluntary recruits, this could be yet another way in which George Bush is underming [sic] our long term national security.
But if you follow Mr. Chusid's
link, you will find it is obsolete, being over a year old, and concerning only part of the year at that. I last wrote about military recruiting a
little over a month ago, and it shows Ron's "truthiness" deserves to be called into question:
Military recruiting for June once again met or exceeded goals across all four branches (h/t Paul at Adventurepan:
- Marines: 105%
- Army: 102%
- Air Force:101%
- Navy: 100%
You'll note that the Marine Corps and Army, responsible for fielding most of the forces on the ground in Iraq and Afghanistan, have exceeded their goals by the largest margins, despite having higher target numbers than the other branches. They achieved this in the face of a mainstream media attempting to portray the military as rapists, racists, and murderers based up the alleged actions of a handful of men.
Since October 1, all four branches have met or exceed their goals:
- Army: 104%
- Marines: 101%
- Air Force: 101%
- Navy: 100%
Reserve forces recruiting has not been as even, but interesting enough, the Reserve and Guard forces most likely to be called upon for ground combat overseas (Army National Guard, Army Reserves, Marine Corps Reserves) have been the most successful in recruiting.
One could argue that this also represents only part of the year, but it is the most current data; far more relevant than statistics over a year old that were not reflective of the overall year's total.
About.com's
U.S. Military Recruiting Statistics page confirms that recruiting for 2006 (so far)
and 2005 were either met or exceeded for both years by all active duty branches. Funny how Mr. Chusid was unable to find those figures, isn't it?
Chusid cherry-picked a story concerning several months in 2005, ignoring the overall 2005 and 2006 recruiting data that undermines his chosen storyline. Honesty is apparently not high on the list of
Liberal Values.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
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A "shithole country"? Two U.S. Marines called Iraq a "shithole country"?
I don't understand. I thought Iraq was supposed to be a democracy now, a free country whose people have hope for the first time in their lives and are free to live however they want to live.
How can a country like that be called a "shithole country"? And what if Iraqis were to read that U.S. Marines are calling their country a "shithole country"? Wouldn't that increase anti-American feeling in the Middle East? Are these Marines trying to sabotage the U.S. mission in Iraq?
Posted by: Kathy at August 23, 2006 05:14 PM (GdRpd)
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I think I had maybe 7 years on the inactive reserve...but that was well over 20 years ago and I can't remember anymore ;->
Carter was prez around that time...I remember that much ;->
Posted by: Purple Avenger at August 23, 2006 05:22 PM (c/xwT)
3
Kathy--
Stop being silly. You seem pretty enamoured with the place -- spend a week in Iraq (or Afghanistan), witness the poverty, the corruption, and the lack of sanitation, and tell me I'm wrong.
Uh oh, some Iraqis might read Confederate Yankee and be outraged? An outraged Iraqi -- that'd be new. I understand it's pretty hard to get those guys excited and violent, so I hope I didn't overstep my bounds.
And FYI: Yes, we are both (former) Marines. One of the many honors that comes with claiming the title "Marine" is the privledge of being on the edge of history, seeing these places first hand, and having a hand in changing things. The only edge you'll ever be on is your seat, hoping US troops get killed so some cretin with a bad comb-over can win the next election.
Any Marine who's been over there will tell you the country is a shithole, but at least they're doing something to change it.
Posted by: paully at August 23, 2006 05:41 PM (yJuX3)
4
Ha ha ha!
Kathy = pwnt
Just shut up.
Idiot.
Posted by: Jinxy at August 23, 2006 05:54 PM (Gxzfi)
5
Gosh, Paul. I don't understand why you are angry at me. I know from reading conservative blogs that conservatives are very concerned about the harm to our troops that can be done when Americans say things or express opinions that could increase anti-American feeling among Iraqis (and others in the Middle East). For example, Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo. These things make Muslims think we don't respect them, and then they get more anti-American. So I was just surprised that you guys would call Iraq a "shithole" when, number one, you know that could increase anti-American feeling, and number two, you know it's not true that Iraq is a shithole! Iraq was a shithole under Saddam! Now it's been liberated and democracy is on the march and things are getting better all the time. And Iraqis love Americans so far, so let's not make them think we don't like them.
Make sense?
Posted by: Kathy at August 23, 2006 06:38 PM (GdRpd)
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Kathy,
Your line of typical liberal speutum isn't even engaging or interesting.
It's just dull and inarticulate pure sarcasm that reveals a deeper truth about you which is that you obviously don't know jackshit about what the world is like outside the narrow confines of your no doubt cat-filled, lonely city apartment.
Get outside once and a while and maybe you'll see what the rest of the world is actually like, instead of wrapping yourself in the comfortable sweater of your own smug sense of superiority and self-righteousness.
Then maybe you won't spout off again as you just did and reveal your complete and utter ignorance of the greater world at large.
I weep for your future students.
Posted by: Jinxy at August 23, 2006 07:02 PM (B+qrE)
7
Kathy... It's really hard for me to tell whether you're joking or not, or whether your comments are being made tongue-in-cheek. If you're being serious, all I can say is that I envy your naivety, and wish I could spend a few weeks in your Candyland world, frolicking in butterscotch waterfalls.
Let's talk about "shithole". I worked in Afghanistan for 7 months. I think Afghans are stand-up people. I liked them a lot. Karzai's a dapper dude and know's what's going on. Kabul's insane, but it's relatively safe....but I would still consider Afghanistan a shithole. There is filth, garbage, and feces everywhere, poverty, the traffic is insane, etc.. When I say "shithole" I'm not referring to the political situation -- not everything is political with me -- I'm referring to the general state of cleanliness. It's similar to when my mother would tell me my room looked like a "shithole." She was referring to its general state of cleanliness, not the political regime under which my room was being ruled.
I'm not sure how to respond to you because of statements like "...Iraqis love Americans so far, so let's not make them think we don't like them. Make sense?" No, it doesn't make sense. Some like us, some don't. Would you feel safe as an American walking down the street in a major Iraqi city in broad daylight? Until you can answer "yes," you might want to rethink your assessment on Iraqi attitudes towards Americans.
Posted by: paully at August 23, 2006 07:14 PM (yJuX3)
8
Paul's mom told him his room was a "shithole"?
Bwahahaha.
Oh, too much.
Posted by: Jinxy at August 23, 2006 07:42 PM (B+qrE)
9
When I say "shithole" I'm not referring to the political situation
Most people would agree Juarez and Tijuana are "shitholes".
The Arbor Hill neighborhood in Albany NY is a "shithole".
Posted by: Purple Avenger at August 23, 2006 07:45 PM (c/xwT)
10
"...you obviously don't know jackshit about what the world is like outside the narrow confines of your no doubt cat-filled, lonely city apartment."
Wow, Jinxy. Nail right on the head. Yet another reason why I enjoy talking to conservatives so much. You guys are so perceptive.
"Get outside once and a while and maybe you'll see what the rest of the world is actually like, instead of wrapping yourself in the comfortable sweater of your own smug sense of superiority and self-righteousness."
Well, I don't know about the getting out part, because I haven't left my lonely city apartment in 10 years. That said, though, I have to tell you I *love* that metaphor: I think I'll use it with my students this fall.
"Let's talk about "shithole". I worked in Afghanistan for 7 months. I think Afghans are stand-up people. I liked them a lot. Karzai's a dapper dude and know's what's going on. Kabul's insane, but it's relatively safe....but I would still consider Afghanistan a shithole. There is filth, garbage, and feces everywhere, poverty, the traffic is insane, etc.. When I say "shithole" I'm not referring to the political situation -- not everything is political with me -- I'm referring to the general state of cleanliness. It's similar to when my mother would tell me my room looked like a "shithole." She was referring to its general state of cleanliness, not the political regime under which my room was being ruled."
Okay, how would you characterize the political situation? I have read and heard so much here in the U.S. about how much better life is for Afghans now. The women have been liberated; they can wear Western clothes, go to school, hold jobs, walk by themselves, marry whoever they like. I've read that Afghanistan is a democracy now.
From what you've said above, it doesn't sound like this is true.
"I'm not sure how to respond to you because of statements like "...Iraqis love Americans so far, so let's not make them think we don't like them. Make sense?" No, it doesn't make sense. Some like us, some don't."
Well, from everything I read on the conservative blogs (and they are the ones who generally support the U.S. being in Afghanistan and Iraq, so that's why I specify them), the vast majority of Iraqis are happy that Americans are in Iraq, and they don't want us to leave. I mean eventually, yes, but the vast majority want us to stay as long as the U.S. government thinks it's necessary to stay. They're not in any burning rush for Americans to leave, iow.
So when you say that some Iraqis like Americans and some don't, that doesn't sound like "the vast majority like Americans." Which is it?
"Would you feel safe as an American walking down the street in a major Iraqi city in broad daylight? Until you can answer "yes," you might want to rethink your assessment on Iraqi attitudes towards Americans."
To your first question, no, definitely not. But I question my own sense that I would not feel safe in Iraq as an American, because I read so much about how the violence there is greatly exaggerated, and that Iraqis can move around freely without fear, go where they want, do what they want. I read that Iraq is a free country now, that it's a democracy, that Iraqis are finally free. That doesn't sound like a dangerous place. It sounds like a good place to be. Plus, if the vast majority of Iraqis are happy Americans are there, doesn't that mean I *SHOULD* feel safe there?
And to your second question, I have a return question: Why do I read on so many conservative blogs that most Iraqis are happy U.S. troops are there, and that it's no more dangerous there than in your average big city in the U.S.?
Posted by: Kathy at August 23, 2006 07:54 PM (GdRpd)
11
The single biggest factor in any country are the actual people living there, and by that standard, Iraq is a shithole.
About a year ago, I was reading comparisons of post war Germany or Japan, and juxtaposing them with postwar Iraq. The conclusions the writer made was that the important variable that made Iraq construction weak, and Germany/Japan construction strong, was the effort of the US. Not the actual people living there.
Comparing the 2 most industrious and productive peoples in recent history with Iraqis, and then pretending to be confused about the difference is disingenuous.
I know that there are those of you out there that are screaming "Racist!" out there. I didn't say that the cause of the difference was genetic, and I don't even feel that way. What I'm saying is that there are cultural differences between Iraqis, and Japanese, and one of those differences is productivity.
Back to the topic of the draft. The draft is a very bad thing. Please don't misuse the word, or it loses all of its bite. Heinlein had the coolest quote about it.
"I also think there are prices too high to pay to save the United States. Conscription is one of them. Conscription is slavery, and I don't think that any people or nation has a right to save itself at the price of slavery for anyone, no matter what name it is called. We have had the draft for twenty years now; I think this is shameful. If a country can't save itself through the volunteer service of its own free people, then I say: Let the damned thing go down the drain!" -RAH 1961
Posted by: brando at August 23, 2006 08:18 PM (K+VjK)
12
Are you citing right-wing blogs in the hopes of finding some sort of solidarity with me? Or are you going to try and "trick" me into agreeing with me so you can launch some sneaky counter-attack, punctuated with a triumphant "AHHA!!"? It's not going to work, because I'm not as conservative as you think, and I'm not the type to agree with someone just because they're "conservative" or whatever. Hell, I think this blog is great, but I don't necessarily agree with everything he says. Furthermore, if the left can skew numbers to mean what they want them to mean, so can the right. I'm not going to rally in the streets based on what some "pundit" is bleating about. I won't base my opinions off of political blogs* -- most are far leaning and have an agenda. I'd much rather base my opinions off of what I've seen and people of integrity and credibility who have been over there. Your buddy Eugene Debs might agree -- being a citizen of the world gives one an opportunity to meet such people.
The political situation in Afghanistan is better, and I have no idea how you would arrive at the assumption, based on what I wrote, that women can't go to school or that Afghanistan is not a democracy. Just because you make a country a democracy doesn't mean that public sanitation and equality rights will magically those of the USA in 2006. Expecting as much is unreasonable, naive, and ethnocentric. I'm not going to get into it any deeper than that because that's not the topic at hand, and at risk of sounding condescending, the socio-political situation there is too complicated to explain in simple terms that you can relate to or understand. I'd hate to give you information to misuse posted by a "Marine on a Conservative Blog".
* - ...this isn't exactly true -- I have formed the opinion (from blogs) that most people have no idea what they're talking about and have absolutely no concept or idea of what anyone is like outside of the USA.
ps: jinxy, my mom also used to say that it "looked like a hurricane went through my room". clearly she is a racist.
Posted by: paully at August 23, 2006 08:56 PM (yJuX3)
13
Kathy, although I think that you are asking questions from a liberal viewpoint, (i.e. rejoice when Americans are killed) I'll do my best to answer one of your questions as though you are honestly asking it. Maybe someone else will read it too. Here's your question.
"Why do I read on so many conservative blogs that most Iraqis are happy U.S. troops are there, and that it's no more dangerous there than in your average big city in the U.S.?"
I don't know about the blogs, but I can tell you what I perceived in Iraq. Iraqis want us there, but they want us to absolutely rule them. They want us to take care of everything, and make Iraq into a little America, while they are safe to sit back and complain. The concept of civic duty or paying taxes would be completely lost on them. I equate it to the mind set that happens to lifetime prison inmates. You get 3 squares a day, a bed, a roof over your head, and you never have to lift a finger. Even if you are in a relatively safe prison, you're still in prison. I think you made the equivalent of freedom and safety, when I doubt that they're even correlated. I'd rather be shoved out the door, and have to find a meal and a place to sleep, than be a slave. So you're question is complicated. Do Iraqis like us? Well, yes, but only because they like power, and we are the most powerful faction right now. And a temporary faction. Can't blame 'em for being fickle. If I were in their shoes, I'd probably hedge my bets too.
You asked about what the correct or incorrect things are to do, when it comes to inspiring terrorists. This comes from direct observation with dealing with arabs. Most people that have been to the middle east will tell you the same thing.
Weakness. Draws. Aggression.
As for the danger level, yeah it's dangerous, but it's not exactly like we were unarmed. However if we're viewing a people or place from a distance it's easy and convenient to view it as homogeneous, when it’s actually really fragmented. Iraq is a country with 25 million people. That's a lot of folks of all different types, and a lot of areas with very different danger levels.
Chicagoland has only about 6 million people or so. Would you feel safe walking at night in Chicago? It would make a big difference if I was talking about Evanston or Gary.
The short version is that the North (kurds) is pretty productive, and the extreme south (shia), is clipping along like a normal country. It's just where there is a fault line of different sorts. They want to butcher each other, and we're throwing a monkey wrench in their plans. I think that splitting it up into 3 countries would be a great idea, but that's up to the Iraqis.
I hope that helps a little, and I didn't just muddy the waters more.
Posted by: brando at August 23, 2006 09:03 PM (K+VjK)
14
"You're" is actually "your" Dangit.
Posted by: brando at August 23, 2006 09:08 PM (K+VjK)
15
Recruiting goals, 2003-2006, for the army: 73,800; 77,000; 62,385; 60,150. The other services see similar reduction in goals. It's obviously good they're able to recruit, but one wonders just how meaningful this metric is.
Posted by: jpe at August 23, 2006 09:53 PM (Tk5Zz)
16
Brando,
Re your comments about the industriousness and productivity of the Iraqi people compared to those in Germany and Japan, and that explaining why postwar reconstruction worked so much better in the case of the latter two countries:
It might also have helped that, in the case of Germany and Japan, (1) those two countries were crushed, completely and utterly defeated, with no insurgency or guerrilla resistance taking money and troops to put down; (2) the United States had planned the reconstruction of postwar Germany and Japan for years before it took place, (3) that millions of dollars were spent on the reconstruction, and (4) that there were considerably more than 140,000 U.S. troops in Europe and the Pacific theater in 1945.
You might have picked up that I disagree with your assessment of the Iraqi people as being unproductive, inefficient, and lazy. I don't think you can use such words to describe people who built the kind of infrastructure Iraq had before 1991. Iraqi engineers are (or were; there aren't many left now, since they tended to be more affluent and mostly have left the country) second to none in the world. I don't think it's fair (to put it very, very mildly) to look at the condition of a people after the 1991 Gulf War (in which Iraqi infrastructure was destroyed) and after this latest U.S. invasion and war and occupation and insurgency and sectarian violence, which has now lasted longer than the entire U.S. involvement in WWII, and make the judgment, from your perspective as a member of the military that invaded Iraq, that Iraqis are inferior in terms of productivity, industriousness, and efficiency. I could say more, but I'll stop, since I've probably enraged you enough for ten replies. Sorry about that, but your comments enraged me.
Posted by: Kathy at August 23, 2006 10:40 PM (GdRpd)
17
Here is my reply to Paul's latest:
No, Paul, I am not citing right-wing blogs to trick you with a sneaky counterattack. I was genuinely flabbergasted to find you describing conditions in Iraq as being exactly the opposite of how conservative bloggers describe it (and since Bob linked to you and Brando seemingly because he approved of and agreed with your military point of view, I did assume you feel comfortable with the political leanings of this blog). Even more than this, though, I was astonished to find YOU describing conditions in Afghanistan and Iraq to ME in a manner that I have been attacked for using myself.
To untangle that sentence a bit: I have been attacked on conservative blogs for writing that conditions in Iraq are terrible (and in Afghanistan, but I haven't written on Afghanistan as much). The same things you said, Paul. I have called Iraq a hellhole (I believe that has approximately the same thing as "shithole") and been called un-American, a traitor, a left-wing moonbat, and other assorted appellations. Now here I find out that Iraq most certainly is a shithole -- and from a U.S. marine, no less.
You might understand why I was a bit confused.
Also, I did not assume that you thought Afghan women could not go to school, etc. I was telling you that YOUR description of Afghanistan as a shithole contradicted what I had heard from conservative bloggers about Afghan women being liberated from oppression, and being able to do all the things Western women can do.
Basically, *I* think that conservatives are very, very conflicted in the way they characterize Afghanistan and Iraq. When reacting to people who oppose the war and believe that conditions there are horrendous, they say that everything is much, much better and so much progress is being made and the people who live there are happy and free and strong and making great strides to protecting themselves. When talking to each other, or when not aware that you may be talking to -- gasp! a liberal -- there is a very different tenor to the talk: Iraq is a shithole, Iraqis are welfare queens, can't do anything for themselves, want us to stay and be Big Daddy, etc.
Posted by: Kathy at August 23, 2006 10:59 PM (GdRpd)
18
"...as a member of the military that invaded Iraq..."
This statement tells me exactly where she's coming from.
Now, clean up your room, Paully.
Posted by: Jinxy at August 23, 2006 11:09 PM (B+qrE)
19
Shame on you. Using Liberal and Honest in the same sentence.
Posted by: Scrapiron at August 23, 2006 11:48 PM (tt0Pe)
20
Kathy, I'm not attacking you, but you've been misinformed. Please don't be angry. I'm not your enemy. I sure hope you don't see US Marines as your enemy. I'm simply stating my first person experiences. I hope they hold more weight than Michael Moore rants.
I was in Mahmudiyah (15 miles south of Baghdad), so I'll only speak to what I know. Maybe the rest of the country was rock solid. There's a reason I don't like to use the world "re-construction". I don't think that Mahumdiyah ever had a working sewage treatment facility. They dumped buckets of feces and urine directly into the streets. People literally lived in mud huts. To say that Iraq was not just a 1st world country, but on par with Japan, Germany, or the US is not only untrue, but laughably untrue. I saw no indication that pre 1991 Iraqi was a 1st world country, and certainly no indication that it's engineers were "second to none". We took over a power plant on the Euphrates river, which I think was build and run by Soviets because all the books in the library were in Russian. Don't believe me? I even have one. Not Iraqi technicians. Russian. I worked with Iraqis on a nearly daily basis for 7 months, and I can assure you that they are indeed unproductive, inefficient, and lazy. It’s really hard to exaggerate. I could put together a stronger fighting force with an American Jr. High football team. Please understand that this is a general theme. They do have their all-stars, just like any population. I feel a little bit bad about making fun of them, because some of them were my boys. I actually liked some of them, and wrote my own little post about it.
Again, I'm not attacking you. I'm saying that the picture that's been painted for you is untrue. I don’t see CY as a “conservative” blog, although I suppose it is. I get a kick out of him because he’s so completely anti-terrorism.
Anyway, don't worry about enraging me. I sort of dig it when liberals say really insane anti-military stuff. It makes me mad a little, but it gives me stuff to repeat. Tell me the real deal.
Posted by: brando at August 23, 2006 11:50 PM (K+VjK)
21
Would you feel safe as an American walking down the street in a major Iraqi city in broad daylight?
I don't feel safe walking down the street in major American cities in broad daylight.
Posted by: Purple Avenger at August 24, 2006 04:40 AM (c/xwT)
22
Brando,
The tone of your response to me is respectful and even charming, and I appreciate that.
I don't want to say to you that your own experience holds no weight with me, and I won't. Of course, your experience is your experience, and it's valid.
Third, about Iraqi technicians being unproductive, inefficient, and lazy, and not being capable of building bridges, tunnels, highways, power plants, etc.: Your conclusions contradict the memories and knowledge of others, who are Iraqi. There are many such, but one in particular whose writing I know very well is Riverbend at Baghdad Burning. She is an Iraqi computer programmer (former computer programmer; she can't work at her profession in Iraq anymore) who writes a blog of the above name. She was living in Baghdad with her family when the U.S. invaded. She experienced everything that happened there. And, with specific regard to Iraqi engineering talents, she wrote one particular blog post about that very subject, taking issue with this idea Americans have that Iraqis can't do anything for themselves and have to have Halliburton come in and rebuild their infrastructure for them. Who do you think built all the bridges, roads, buildings, tunnels, sewage treatment plants, telecommunications facilities, power plants, etc., that were in Iraq before the Gulf War?
Your observations and impressions are the result of your experiences in Iraq NOW. They are not informed or given texture or context by a deeper understanding of Iraq's history BEFORE you were there.
Consider also the possibility that the Iraqi men who "work for you" (you are their boss, right?) are "lazy, unproductive, and inefficient" because they have no motivation to be otherwise. Would you be motivated to work your butt off, be productive, industrious, and efficient, if the work you were doing was at the order and instruction of a foreign occupying army? No disrespect intended to your service, Brando, but facts are facts. This is what the U.S. military IS in Iraq, and it's certainly how it's perceived by Iraqis. Maybe the Iraqis you know would be motivated to work harder and strut their stuff if they felt that they were autonomous, independent, free human beings working to rebuild their own country, rather than working to do the projects the U.S. decides they are going to do.
I realize that this sentiment is generally regarded by war supporters as being "anti-military," but it isn't. I just am used to putting myself in the other person's position, when I'm inclined to judge them harshly. And I know I would not like to be supervised and ordered around by Iraqi military officers in my own country. I take it as a given that Iraqis feel similarly about being ordered around by Americans in *their* country.
Finally, Brando, you write this: "I feel a little bad about making fun of them, because some of them were my boys."
Brando, "your BOYS"? I have to tell you, your use of the word "boys" to describe grown men is not only offensive but highly revealing of the way you view them. Do you call your fellow Marines who serve under you "your BOYS," or do you call them "your MEN"? Do commanding officers in Iraq generally call the U.S. troops under them their "boys" or their "men"? Do officers say "the boys in my unit"?
I want to say one more thing. You tell me "the picture that's been painted for me" is wrong. Brando, *no picture has been painted for me.* I am a grown woman, an educated woman, an intelligent woman, and a reasonably well-informed woman. I read voraciously, of my own free will, and nobody tells me what to read. I don't read Michael Moore, btw. I don't read MoveOn, or DU. I read widely, from all different kinds of print material -- books, articles, blogs, newspapers, journals, magazines, etc. -- and from many different perspectives. I don't have your direct experience, but that does not mean I am misinformed.
Respectfully,
Kathy
I don't doubt that you've seen what you describe having seen; but it seems to me that you are drawing larger conclusions from what you've seen that are not informed by a larger context, and that are not necessarily true.
First, your remarks about Muhmadiyah. You say you don't think they ever had a working sewage treatment plant. You say they dump buckets of feces and urine directly into the streets. This does not surprise me at all. Are you aware that, in the 1991 Gulf War, the U.S. bombed and destroyed almost all, if not all, of Iraq's infrastructure? I mentioned this before, but I repeat it because I wonder if you know what that implies. There were any number of articles and reports (many by firsthand witnesses) written at the time about sewage running raw in the streets because sewage treatment plants had been destroyed. Water purification facilities were also destroyed. This is not what public health conditions were like in Iraq before the Persian Gulf War.
Furthermore, Iraq was never able to rebuild the infrastructure satisfactorily because of the sanctions, which went on for 12 years.
So to look at the sewage treatment facility in Muhmadiyah now, and conclude that it was never a working facility, based on what you see now, is to view conditions totally out of context. You say that you see no indication from conditions now that Iraq was ever a first world country or that its engineers were second to none, but how can you even begin to make that judgment when you do not know what Iraq was like pre-1991? It was not a first world country, true, but neither was it the cesspool it is now.
Re the power plant on the Euphrates: Obviously I believe you about the books in the library all being in Russian, and I don't know why that was, but as far as I know the Soviets were never in Iraq and did not build any power plants there. And regardless, you cannot draw sweeping conclusions about all of Iraq's pre-1991 infrastructure based on one facility.
Second, I did not at any time say that Iraq was a "first world country" of the kind that Germany and Japan were. I said that your using the example of the success of postwar reconstruction in Germany and Japan to support your argument that the German people and the Japanese people were and are more industrious and productive and efficient than the Iraqi people is incorrect, and misleading, because the United States planned Europe's reconstruction for literally YEARS, and devoted money and resources to that reconstruction that were not even dreamed of in the case of Iraq. To that, I might add that Germany and Japan were real, legitimate nations with centuries of history before WWII. Iraq has *never* been a real, legitimate nation. It was cobbled together from the remains of the old Ottoman Empire by Britain after WWI. Iraq has always been a Western colonial creation. Comparing Iraq to Germany and Japan is both unfair and misleading.
Posted by: Kathy at August 24, 2006 06:36 AM (GdRpd)
23
The order in my post somehow got completely garbled. It's all there, but it's out of order. I'm going to fix it and repost.
Kathy
Posted by: Kathy at August 24, 2006 06:38 AM (GdRpd)
24
Brando,
The tone of your response to me is respectful and even charming, and I appreciate that.
I don't want to say to you that your own experience holds no weight with me, and I won't. Of course, your experience is your experience, and it's valid.
I don't doubt that you've seen what you describe having seen; but it seems to me that you are drawing larger conclusions from what you've seen that are not informed by a larger context, and that are not necessarily true.
First, your remarks about Muhmadiyah. You say you don't think they ever had a working sewage treatment plant. You say they dump buckets of feces and urine directly into the streets. This does not surprise me at all. Are you aware that, in the 1991 Gulf War, the U.S. bombed and destroyed almost all, if not all, of Iraq's infrastructure? I mentioned this before, but I repeat it because I wonder if you know what that implies. There were any number of articles and reports (many by firsthand witnesses) written at the time about sewage running raw in the streets because sewage treatment plants had been destroyed. Water purification facilities were also destroyed. This is not what public health conditions were like in Iraq before the Persian Gulf War.
Furthermore, Iraq was never able to rebuild the infrastructure satisfactorily because of the sanctions, which went on for 12 years.
So to look at the sewage treatment facility in Muhmadiyah now, and conclude that it was never a working facility, based on what you see now, is to view conditions totally out of context. You say that you see no indication from conditions now that Iraq was ever a first world country or that its engineers were second to none, but how can you even begin to make that judgment when you do not know what Iraq was like pre-1991? It was not a first world country, true, but neither was it the cesspool it is now.
Re the power plant on the Euphrates: Obviously I believe you about the books in the library all being in Russian, and I don't know why that was, but as far as I know the Soviets were never in Iraq and did not build any power plants there. And regardless, you cannot draw sweeping conclusions about all of Iraq's pre-1991 infrastructure based on one facility.
Second, I did not at any time say that Iraq was a "first world country" of the kind that Germany and Japan were. I said that your using the example of the success of postwar reconstruction in Germany and Japan to support your argument that the German people and the Japanese people were and are more industrious and productive and efficient than the Iraqi people is incorrect, and misleading, because the United States planned Europe's reconstruction for literally YEARS, and devoted money and resources to that reconstruction that were not even dreamed of in the case of Iraq. To that, I might add that Germany and Japan were real, legitimate nations with centuries of history before WWII. Iraq has *never* been a real, legitimate nation. It was cobbled together from the remains of the old Ottoman Empire by Britain after WWI. Iraq has always been a Western colonial creation. Comparing Iraq to Germany and Japan is both unfair and misleading.
Third, about Iraqi technicians being unproductive, inefficient, and lazy, and not being capable of building bridges, tunnels, highways, power plants, etc.: Your conclusions contradict the memories and knowledge of others, who are Iraqi. There are many such, but one in particular whose writing I know very well is Riverbend at Baghdad Burning. She is an Iraqi computer programmer (former computer programmer; she can't work at her profession in Iraq anymore) who writes a blog of the above name. She was living in Baghdad with her family when the U.S. invaded. She experienced everything that happened there. And, with specific regard to Iraqi engineering talents, she wrote one particular blog post about that very subject, taking issue with this idea Americans have that Iraqis can't do anything for themselves and have to have Halliburton come in and rebuild their infrastructure for them. Who do you think built all the bridges, roads, buildings, tunnels, sewage treatment plants, telecommunications facilities, power plants, etc., that were in Iraq before the Gulf War?
Your observations and impressions are the result of your experiences in Iraq NOW. They are not informed or given texture or context by a deeper understanding of Iraq's history BEFORE you were there.
Consider also the possibility that the Iraqi men who "work for you" (you are their boss, right?) are "lazy, unproductive, and inefficient" because they have no motivation to be otherwise. Would you be motivated to work your butt off, be productive, industrious, and efficient, if the work you were doing was at the order and instruction of a foreign occupying army? No disrespect intended to your service, Brando, but facts are facts. This is what the U.S. military IS in Iraq, and it's certainly how it's perceived by Iraqis. Maybe the Iraqis you know would be motivated to work harder and strut their stuff if they felt that they were autonomous, independent, free human beings working to rebuild their own country, rather than working to do the projects the U.S. decides they are going to do.
I realize that this sentiment is generally regarded by war supporters as being "anti-military," but it isn't. I just am used to putting myself in the other person's position, when I'm inclined to judge them harshly. And I know I would not like to be supervised and ordered around by Iraqi military officers in my own country. I take it as a given that Iraqis feel similarly about being ordered around by Americans in *their* country.
Finally, Brando, you write this: "I feel a little bad about making fun of them, because some of them were my boys."
Brando, "your BOYS"? I have to tell you, your use of the word "boys" to describe grown men is not only offensive but highly revealing of the way you view them. Do you call your fellow Marines who serve under you "your BOYS," or do you call them "your MEN"? Do commanding officers in Iraq generally call the U.S. troops under them their "boys" or their "men"? Do officers say "the boys in my unit"?
I want to say one more thing. You tell me "the picture that's been painted for me" is wrong. Brando, *no picture has been painted for me.* I am a grown woman, an educated woman, an intelligent woman, and a reasonably well-informed woman. I read voraciously, of my own free will, and nobody tells me what to read. I don't read Michael Moore, btw. I don't read MoveOn, or DU. I read widely, from all different kinds of print material -- books, articles, blogs, newspapers, journals, magazines, etc. -- and from many different perspectives. I don't have your direct experience, but that does not mean I am misinformed.
Respectfully,
Kathy
Posted by: Kathy at August 24, 2006 06:42 AM (GdRpd)
25
Kathy--
Referring to someone as your "boy" is a term of endearment used among today's youth. Didn't you say you were a teacher? You should spend more time listening to them. Right now everyone who read how offended you got at brando's use of the term is laughing at you, probably like your students do when you no doubt sprew equally ridiculous garbage in class.
"Consider also the possibility that the Iraqi men who "work for you" (you are their boss, right?) are "lazy, unproductive, and inefficient" because they have no motivation to be otherwise."
You mean like having a part in creating a good place for you and your family and future generations to live? How about showing the "occupying army" that they can handle things by themselves? Maybe you should re-read your paragraph for a verbatim answer as to why Iraqis should be motivated?
You really showed your ass on that last post, so I'm gonna quit this thread because I'm a bit flabbergasted right now. It hurts me that you are educating our future. Peace n chicken grease. (hopefully you find that offensive somehow too)
ps. riverbend is a nutjob
Posted by: paully at August 24, 2006 10:02 AM (dhl+a)
26
"(hopefully you find that offensive somehow too)"
Not at all; I always consider the source before getting offended.
Regards,
Kathy
Posted by: Kathy at August 24, 2006 10:15 AM (GdRpd)
27
"You really showed your ass on that last post..."
And you showed your true colors; it was amazing to see the mask drop.
"(hopefully you find that offensive somehow too)"
Not at all; I always consider the source before getting offended.
Regards,
Kathy
Posted by: Kathy at August 24, 2006 10:16 AM (GdRpd)
28
As I have seen southern Iraq first hand ( I flew with a Naval Squadron over southern Iraq doing multiple missions) I will say that the Marines assesment of Iraq is dead on it is a shithole, there is sewage all over, the rivers have dead animal carcauses in them, there is garbage all over the place.
Also while some Iraqis do want us there, there are many who dont I dont propose to know why but I have been shot at by all tpyes from young to very old so to say they all want us there is wrong to. I am neither far left or far right I am middle of the road I see points from both sides and as the Marines said it is easier when you have seen the outside world firsthand. This is just my two cents worth think of it what you will.
Posted by: 81 at August 24, 2006 10:49 AM (lNB+R)
29
One last note each and everyone one of us who have served were told and know that while you may be enlisted from four to five years active service you are a part of the IRR for a period of a total of eight years. (That does include your active time) So if you served for five years they have the right and obligation if need be to recall you at anytime for the next three years. Its in black and white and all of us are told about it!
Posted by: 81 at August 24, 2006 10:53 AM (JSetw)
30
Kathy,
You are obviously well read and well informed. It's the accuracy of your info that I have to question.
"Who do you think built the roads, bridges..."
I happen to be an engineer. I have both studied and personally seen modern, middle-eastern construction and engineering. Nobody is doubting the ability of an Iraqi to get an education if they so desire, but Iraqi's did not build their modern country. Their American and Western European educated engineers did the planning, and the construction was done on the backs of "guest workers" from other Arabic and Persian countries that had the misfortune of not being parked on top of a sea of oil.
You say that you are just "... trying to put myself in the other person's position" but I think you only manage to succeed in highlighting your cultural "American-style" ignorance. How the holy hell could you ever imagine what their position is. Did somebody blog it? Are you reading this in the safety and comfort of your air conditioned McMansion? Please tell me that you are not so naive as to base your obviously passionate beliefs on something you read? If this is true, I know a few Japanese with some very informative bits of info on their Greater Co-Prosperity Sphere.
You harpooned Mr. Brando for his comments on his time spent at the sunny, fun-filled, Muhmadiyah crap cleaning plant. Since you feel that he can't see past his nose, or the year 1991, I challenge you to tell me who built that plant? Was it the undereducated, wellfare state populace of Iraqis that were used to their nuevo riche government handing them modern day conviences, or maybe a Russian government that was scared shitless by the thought of a muslim uprising because they were busy bombing the shit out of one of their neighbors?
Kathy, you are dealing with a group of people that have experienced a culture that is so foreign to our Western way of living as to be almost unimaginable. You are attempting to tell these people that their experiences aren't valid because of their preconceived notions about a foreign culture that you yourself have only read about. On top of this, you allowed yourself to get suckered into a name calling contest. Honestly now.
Posted by: Joe at August 25, 2006 03:10 PM (1I80M)
Posted by: john smith at August 25, 2006 06:46 PM (byFw2)
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F-16s Escort NW Flight to Amsterdam
Could be something, could be nothing:
A Northwest Airlines flight bound for India was escorted back to Amsterdam's Schiphol Airport by F-16 fighter jets on Wednesday.
The plane was turned around after "a couple of passengers displayed behavior of concern," according to Northwest Airlines.
"Northwest is cooperating with the appropriate government officials," the company said in a statement.
The DC-10 plane, bound for Mumbai, was carrying 149 passengers, Northwest said. Flight number 42 has been canceled and will be rescheduled for Thursday.
The airport spokeswoman said the pilot had requested to return to Amsterdam and after the plane landed, there were some arrests.
She would not specify if those arrested were passengers.
Sources told Dutch journalist Marijn Tebbens that the disturbance was the result of some unruly passengers. The plane landed safely at 11:39 a.m. (5:39 a.m. ET), the sources said.
This sounds supicious, but at this point we have very little concrete information to go on. I'm am curious about odd sentence from the airport spokeswoman, "She would not specify if those arrested were passengers."
Who else would it be, an errant dogwalker?
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
07:50 AM
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"Who else would it be, an errant dogwalker?"
Flight crew?
Posted by: Jimmy at August 23, 2006 01:09 PM (+aO9k)
2
The sentence doesn't actually say that those arrested were on the plane, only that after the plane landed, there were some arrests.
They could have arrested ground crew or others at the terminal as well...
Posted by: matt a at August 24, 2006 10:23 AM (GvAmg)
3
Time for an update.
--
Early on in the flight, the Northwest Airlines crew decided to turn around and head back to Amsterdam, where the men were then taken into custody.
A statement from the prosecutor's office now says the phones were examined, and they hadn't been manipulated. Authorities also found that there were no explosives on the plane.
The statement says "no evidence could be brought forward that these men were about to commit an act of violence."
--
Might want to put that on front page, a few folks around here seem, uh, RIDICULOUSLY paranoid about brown people. Pointing out another false alarm might help return a few of them to rational thought.
Posted by: wah at August 24, 2006 02:30 PM (/Mtjv)
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August 22, 2006
Shared Scitless
Proof once again that liberals dispise few things more than a live voter's right to choose:
Critics of Sen. Joseph I. Lieberman's independent run to keep his job attacked on two fronts Monday, with one group asking an elections official to throw him out of the Democratic Party and a former rival calling on state officials to keep his name off the November ballot.
Staffers for the senator from Connecticut, who lost the Aug. 8 Democratic primary to Greenwich businessman Ned Lamont, called both efforts dirty politics. The senator filed as an independent candidate a day after the loss, running under the new Connecticut for Lieberman Party.
A group whose members describe themselves as peace activists asked Sharon Ferrucci, Democratic registrar of voters in New Haven, to remove Lieberman from the party, arguing that he cannot be a Democrat while running under another party's banner.
[snip]
John Orman, a Democrat who gave up a challenge to Lieberman last year, argued in complaints filed with the state Monday that the senator should be kept off the Nov. 7 ballot.
Orman, a Fairfield University professor of political science, accused Lieberman of creating "a fake political party" and added: "He's doing anything he can to get his name on the ballot."
Joe Lieberman, who has a solid liberal voting record going back to when he was first elected to the Senate in 1989, who was nominated as the Vice Presidential candidate for the Democratic party in 2000, isn't "Democrat enough" for the Peace Democrats (otherwise known as
Copperheads as they struggled against Abraham Lincoln in the 1860s, calling him
Abraham Africanus as modern liberals call the current Republican President the
Chimperor without any registration of the implicit racial overtones spanning three centuries, but I digress). If Lieberman's resume is the standard which we discard Democratic candidates, Republicans would run nearly unopposed.
Connecticut's liberals are playing a dangerous game, trying an overt attempt to throw out the seasoned incumbent frontrunner, forcefully limiting the choices of the voter, based upon the most inane of arguments and the most brazenly partisan of reasons.
I wrote just two weeks ago that I
hoped Ned Lamont would win the primary, and when he won, I was thrilled that the Democratic Party would be committing
Lamonticide. But I had no idea that the self-administered poison would so quickly take effect.
Connecticut Liberals are trying every trick in the book to keep Connecticut voters from have Joe Lieberman on the ballot.
It appears they aren't "Pro-Choice" after all.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
03:10 PM
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That is an amazingly fast self destruction sequence. If they could move that fast when they wanted to do something constructive they'd be unstoppable. That's not going to happen.
Posted by: hdw at August 22, 2006 03:28 PM (nA9AR)
2
I think they will have to force Joe to vote with Republicans a few times to really prove to themselves he's not a Democrat.
Posted by: lonetown at August 22, 2006 03:32 PM (6q//N)
3
Hey, he's got enough signatures to get on the ballot, only right to let him run. If he's started a new party, well that's EXACTLY what this country NEEDS. The other two parties have virtually married each other and are one with each other. Don't change the fact though, he's A CONNECTICUT YANKEE IN KING GEORGE'S COURT
Posted by: Mike Meyer at August 22, 2006 08:02 PM (/0FMj)
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CY:
First, Lieberman lost the Democratic primary. It is, therefore, entirely reasonable that Democrats want him to stop running as a Democrat.
Second, the very idea that calling Bush the Chimperor is a racial slur is mindboggling in its foolishness. Next, I guess that you'll tell me that the proverbial "one hundred chimpanzees with typewriters" is a coded attack on Black writers? Curious George is a secret symbol of a colonized African population? That "The Chimps From C.H.U.M.P." was actually Klan propaganda?
Finally, since when do Confederates of any stripe have such touching concern for poor, downtrodden minorities? Only when they reckon they can make a point with it, is my guess...
Posted by: Doc Washboard at August 22, 2006 09:38 PM (tkLOh)
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#1 - Joe is NOT running as a Democrat. He is running as an independent.
#2 - The Constitution places only three requirements for someone to be elected President a) natural born citizen; b) age 35 or older; c) been a resident for 14 years. To be elected, you must be able to get on a ballot.
There is no requirement in the Constitution to belong to a political party, so as far as I can see, he should have the opportunity to run for that office.
Of course, if the Dems succeed and kck him off the ballot, wouldn't it be delightful if he won on a write-in?
Finally, isn't ironic? Here they are spending all there efforts trying to kick Joe OFF the ballot, yet at the same time, they are spending quite a bit of effort forcing Tom Delay to stay ON the ballot.
Dems - more fun than a barrel of monkeys (can I say that?).
Posted by: SouthernRoots at August 22, 2006 10:25 PM (jHBWL)
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So...when a primary is held and the loser ignores it, that's giving the voters a choice?
Your post makes absolutely no sense at all.
Posted by: ScaredyPat at August 23, 2006 01:30 PM (nM0Mp)
7
Lieberman is not a Democrat. He ran in the Democratic primary and lost. Now he's running as the sole member of the Connecticut for Lieberman party. He should rightly not be listed on the Connecticut voter ballot as a Democrat.
However, Orman is wrong to say that Lieberman shouldn't be on the ballot period. Joementum has every right to defend his seat as a member of another party.
It's nice to see so many conservatives lining up to defend a "liberal Democrat" like Joe Lieberman. It's almost as if they suspect something about Joe...
By the way, primary elections are supposed to be partisan. That's the whole point of having them.
Posted by: Samurai Sam at August 23, 2006 02:07 PM (HrtLF)
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"...modern liberals call the current Republican President the Chimperor without any registration of the implicit racial overtones spanning three centuries"
I'm fairly certain President Bush is a white man.
Posted by: david at August 23, 2006 02:21 PM (jmjB6)
9
So...when a primary is held and the loser ignores it, that's giving the voters a choice?
Your post makes absolutely no sense at all.
It makes no sense at all does it? well, pardon your ignorance, but Lieberman is not running as a Democrat, is he? I believe Ned Lamont is on the ballot as the Democrat candidate, and Lieberman is running as an independent.
Sharon Ferrucci essentially argues that Leiberman has to change his political views to run as an independent, a preposterous position without any legal merit at all. John Orman seeks to create new rules for what is and what isn't a political party as he finds it politically convenient.
The simple fact of the matter is that Joe Lieberman fits all of the legal criteria to run for the seat he presently holds, and the same people in the so-called "big tent" party who stabbed him in the back even though he votes with them 90% of the time are terrified, he's going to crush Ned Lamont, their single issue poster child of the "Peace Democrat" (Copperhead) Left.
And while I'm on the subject of the Copperhead Left, I see the deep thinkers at Sadly No! have rejoined us again, unable to understand how referring to a white Republican as an primate has dark roots in their political past.
Says Sadly:
No, he really said that. He really invoked some kind of bizarre personal racial association with chimpanzees to defend George W. Bush, wealthy white Yale and Harvard graduate, privileged from birth, son of a president and grandson of a senator. Chimpanzees. Good Lord. Like, they’re supposed to be naturally reminiscent of black people?
Not surprisingly, the reading comprehension of Sadly is sadly lacking. I said:
Joe Lieberman, who has a solid liberal voting record going back to when he was first elected to the Senate in 1989, who was nominated as the Vice Presidential candidate for the Democratic party in 2000, isn't "Democrat enough" for the Peace Democrats (otherwise known as Copperheads as they struggled against Abraham Lincoln in the 1860s, calling him Abraham Africanus as modern liberals call the current Republican President the Chimperor without any registration of the implicit racial overtones spanning three centuries, but I digress).
This is not too hard to understand for most folks; I simply was pointing out the parallels between the Peace Democrats of the 1860s and 2006. If you clicked the link provided in that section in the post itself, you would see this description of the 1860s Copperhead Agenda:
Copperheads nominally favored the Union but they strongly opposed the war, for which they blamed abolitionists, and they demanded immediate peace and resisted the draft laws. They wanted Lincoln and the Republicans ousted from power, seeing the president as a tyrant who was destroying American republican values with his despotic and arbitrary actions.
Some Copperheads tried to persuade Union soldiers to desert. They talked of helping Confederate prisoners of war seize their camps and escape. They sometimes met with Confederate agents and took their money. The Confederacy encouraged their activities whenever possible, and at one point Confederate agents controlled portions of the Democratic party in states such as Connecticut.
While some details have changed, it sounds strikingly familiar.
Let’s check out the similarities:
Anti-war? Check.calls for an immediate peace (i.e. a surrender)? Check. Saw the current Republican President as a tyrant, acting as a despot? Check.Encourage soldiers to desert? Check. (And if you doubt that, look at those supporting Ehren Watada, among others)Tried, or at least talked about helping enemies prisoners of war escape? Check. (Gitmo ring a bell?)Controlled portions of the Democratic Party in such states as Connecticut? Dead on.
And right beside that nice little paragraph of startlingly consistent behavior, is an 1864 pamphlet showing how some other things have remained the same. The pamphlet is an attack on a sitting Republican wartime president, comparing him to a primate or blacks, or both with the title Abraham Africanus I. To what end?
Again, we go back to the copperhead reference on wikipedia:
A typical editor was Edward G. Roddy, owner of the Uniontown, Pennsylvania, Genius of Liberty. He was an intensely partisan Democrat who saw blacks as an inferior race and Abraham Lincoln as a despot and dunce.
Tying blacks to monkeys as fellow "inferior" or subhuman species has been going on for hundreds of years in cultures around the world.
"Peace Democrats" have a historical tendency to find white Republican wartime Presidents from rural states to be dunces and tyrants, comparing them to monkeys, along with their many other shared traits, and we are to believe that the one thing they have changed is that monkey references are now suddenly non-racial in the inferiority they imply?
As this iteration of the "Peace Democrats" features Jane "Blackface" Hamsher and a whole bevy of Democrats who turn a blind eye or even participate in race-based attacks against black conservatives, I'd find that highly unlikely, and only slightly better concealed.
I now fully expect the brain trust of Sadly No! to go on one of the typical liberal, "How dare someone with 'Confederate' in his blog name question us," whines, but sadly, whining is about all they excel at.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at August 23, 2006 03:04 PM (g5Nba)
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Don't you all see? Calling Bush the Chimperor is exactly the same as referring to Lincoln as Abraham Africanus because, much like Lincoln, Bush has also been a staunch advocate of minority rights. When the lefties call him that, they're just trying to imply that he's pandering to the black vote. Isn't it obvious? It has nothing to do with his appearance, it's just racism, racism I say!
Or, alternatively, CY could just be talking out his ass. Yeah, on second thought, that's probably it.
Posted by: Larv at August 23, 2006 03:15 PM (6YCw9)
11
Well, congrats, CY, you're now ready for that five-mile run, what with all the intense stretching you just did. Democrats compare Bush to a monkey; people compared Lincoln to a monkey in 1861; people who compared Lincoln to a monkey in 1861 were also racists; therefore Democrats are also racists . . . Are you sure you don't want to include a connection to Kevin Bacon in there?
Meanwhile, not so much as a peep about George Allen, you know, actually calling a brown-skinned person a monkey.
Posted by: Doug at August 23, 2006 03:23 PM (jd34Q)
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It makes no sense at all does it? well, pardon your ignorance, but Lieberman is not running as a Democrat, is he? I believe Ned Lamont is on the ballot as the Democrat candidate, and Lieberman is running as an independent.
Sharon Ferrucci essentially argues that Leiberman has to change his political views to run as an independent, a preposterous position without any legal merit at all.
Speaking of reading comprehension, Sharon Ferrucci isn't the one asking for Lieberman's party affiliation to be changed, she's the one deciding on the request. And to the best of my knowledge, the question is whether the ballot should list his party affiliation as D, or as I. Given that he lost the Democratic primary, this seems a no-brainer, otherwise there's little point in holding a primary. The AP article wasn't very clear on that point, so it's possible I'm wrong, but that's my understanding of the controversy.
Posted by: Larv at August 23, 2006 03:25 PM (6YCw9)
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'Stabbed in the back'?
Get real, he lost a primary, the only thing funny about that is you people claiming that it's anti-choice to oppose his arrogance.
Posted by: ScaredyPat at August 23, 2006 03:40 PM (nM0Mp)
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Would you like to tell me where my comment went? I wanted to think you weren't childish enough to start deleting comments, but I suppose I thought wrong.
Posted by: dgbellak at August 23, 2006 03:55 PM (YodPA)
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Weren't they refering Lincoln to Scipio Africanus, the Roman General who defeated Hannibal at Carthage in North Africa?
As far as Georgie, I thought it was the EARS.
Posted by: Mike Meyer at August 23, 2006 05:25 PM (a1Ep5)
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And right beside that nice little paragraph of startlingly consistent behavior, is an 1864 pamphlet showing how some other things have remained the same. The pamphlet is an attack on a sitting Republican wartime president, comparing him to a primate or blacks, or both with the title Abraham Africanus I.
CY posits an interesting theory, but visiting the venerable (in Internet time) website SmirkingChimp.com, one finds right at the top of the page, this notice:
106,870,251 page views since 27 December 2000
... which puts the origins of the "Bush as chimp" insult nearly a full year (at least) before Bush was a "wartime president".
Furthermore, while the wiki article points to pamphlets, tracts and other public statements by the Copperheads that are indeed full of overt racism (characterised by the 'Abraham Africanus' jibe), nowhere does CY plausibly show* that users of the 'chimperor' insult are similarly motivated by racism against blacks. If he feels up to the research, CY might start on SmirkingChimp.com itself to find solid evidence of the "racial overtones" he claims are present in such insults.
I suspect he won't try, and if he did, he wouldn't find any ... because all of this has been a long way of saying CY is completely full of shit.
*Jane Hamsher's error in allowing a silly attempt at irony to be posted on her blog, and vague, undocumented "race-based attacks against black conservatives" to which Democrats supposedly "turn a blind eye" are hardly plausible comparisons to the dedicated public racism of the Copperheads.
In fact, the most overt prejudices on display in American politics today are against Arabs and Muslims, and those disgusting displays are almost entirely the province of the Right.
Posted by: Demogenes Aristophanes at August 23, 2006 05:28 PM (TSh37)
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Not Even Phoning It In
Rusty and Allah are all over this example of just how lazy Hezbollah has become in their efforts to provide fake news. The official Hezbollah web site (with an appropriate Iranian URL) is showing a picture of a ship being ripped apart in an explosion. Hezbollah claims that the ship was an Israeli ship hit by a Hezbollah missile.
Here is the picture as shown on Hezbollah's site:
And Hezbollah
did hit an Israel ship, the INS
Hanit, a
Saar 5 class missile boat, most likely with an Iranian-made C-701 "Kosar" type missile, on July 14, 2006.
This is the INS
Hanit (photo credit:
Sweetness & Light):
Note the damage (most noticeably the scorch marks) near the waterline directly under the
Hanit's helicopter hanger, roughly three-quarters of the way to the stern. Note also that while the ship was reported to have serious internal damage and four Israeli sailors died in the attack, the ship is largely intact, the keel unbroken, and the ship otherwise, from this view, externally undamaged, where the ship in the Hezbollah photo to has literally been broken by the blast, the aft half of the ship behind the explosion several degrees out of alignment with the fore.
The two ships, as
noticed by Andrew Bolt of the Australian
Herald-Sun, are not nearly the same.
HMAS
Torrens, a decommissioned Australian destroyer escort, was purposefully
sunk in a torpedo test on June 14, 1999. If you look at first picture in the second row on
this page, it becomes quite likely that Hezbollah stole the image from this wikipedia entry, cropped it, and then enlarged it to get their end result.
A ship built in the mid 1960s and decommissioned in 1971 is
not going to be mistaken for a modern vessel launched in 1994.
Of course, seeing is believing.
The INS
Hanit (picture mirrored 180 degrees from above for comparative purposes):
HMAS
Torrens, just prior to the torpedo test:
Not even close. You would expect that a recently unemployed Adnan Hajj would have been make it at least this close:
These days, Hezbollah isn't even phoning it in.
Update: Blue Crab Boulevard uncovers
more Hezbollah pictures.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
11:37 AM
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1
They chose that particular picture of the HMAS Torrens because that's the only one where the bow numbers aren't visible.
Posted by: Jim at August 22, 2006 07:26 PM (2cwjl)
2
I thought I read somewhere the Israeli ship was hit at night?
Posted by: Purple Avenger at August 22, 2006 07:28 PM (c/xwT)
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Indeed, the INS Hanit was attacked during the Sabbath Supper. The sailors who were supposed to be on duty were in the mess hall with everybody and ALL anti-missile, early warning and defense systems were shut down (because the ship's captain belived an attack was impossible).
Know the fool is facing the court martial he deserves.
Regards, F. Sgt. Alex
Posted by: First Sergeant Alex at August 22, 2006 07:39 PM (ri/u4)
4
Whoa there, Wilbur! You digitally manipulated the image. Anything, then, you may have to say about the picture is clearly a lie!
Why do you hate America? Why do you denigrate our troops?
Et cetera, ad infinitum.
Posted by: Doc Washboard at August 22, 2006 09:41 PM (tkLOh)
5
It's not such a big deal that they're lying, because that is sort of par for the course. What I find insulting is that they're lying so badly. If someone's going to lie to me, at least they should put forth some effort. Great post, btw.
Posted by: brando at August 23, 2006 04:39 PM (K+VjK)
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Well, when your only strategic weapon is bullshit, you gotta pile it on...thick.
Posted by: Purple Avenger at August 23, 2006 05:24 PM (c/xwT)
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Iran Assaults Oil Rig, Captures Crew
I hope that the Left will condemn this obvious war for oil:
A Romanian oil rig off the coast of Iran came under fire from an Iranian warship and was later occupied by Iranian troops, a company spokesman said.
The Iranians first fired into the air and then fired at the Orizont rig, said GSP spokesman Radu Petrescu. Half an hour later, troops from the ship boarded and occupied the rig and the company lost contact with the 26 crew members shortly afterward.
Petrescu said he had no information about any injuries or deaths. The Orizont rig has been moored near the Kish island in the Persian Gulf since October 2005, he told the Associated Press.
Eugen Chira, the political consul at the Romanian Embassy in Tehran confirmed the incident, but provided few details.
"Some forces opened fire. That an incident has happened is true. We have no details or the reason yet," he said.
If this is the first stage of an attempt to shut down the Persian Gulf, the Iranian's picked an odd place to start, as Kish is to the northwest of the Straits of Hormuz.
More as this develops.
Update: This is still something of a "non-story," that I'm not seeing widely reported, for whatever reason. I'm not sure if it is a lack of information, or a determination by the news Powers That Be that this is a minor story. More info comes from Bloomberg, indicating that this might be a
business/teritorial dispute:
Iran attacked and seized control of a Romanian oil rig working in its Persian Gulf waters this morning one week after the Iranian government accused the European drilling company of ``hijacking'' another rig.
An Iranian naval vessel fired on the rig owned by Romania's Grup Servicii Petroliere (GSP) in the Salman field and took control of its radio room at about 7:00 a.m. local time, Lulu Tabanesku, Grup's representative in the United Arab Emirates said in a phone interview from Dubai today.
[snip]
Iran urged the United Arab Emirates last week to help it return another oil rig owned and operated by the Romanian company in the same waters close to the Straits of Hormuz, through which 20 percent of the world's daily oil supply moves on tankers.
Grup said it recovered its rig last week because of a contractual dispute with its Iranian client, Oriental Oil Kish.
Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad suspended Oriental Oil's activities in 2005 on alleged corruption activity and ties to Halliburton Co. of the U.S. The U.A.E.-registered drilling company had signed a preliminary contract with Halliburton after winning an estimated $310 million contract to develop phases 9 and 10 of Iran's offshore South Pars gas reservoir.
Mircea Geoana, the head of the Social Democratic Party, the main opposition party in Romania, called on the government to ``undertake all diplomatic measures necessary'' to persuade the Iranians to release the rig.
He also called on President Traian Basescu in a news conference broadcast on Realitatea television to invite all political party heads to the presidential palace to "discuss what Romania's reaction will be to this provocation."
You just
knew Halliburton would get dragged into this, didn't you? I suspect that it is just a matter of time before the accusations start to fly that this is a set-up by the Bush Administration to use as a justification to go to war.
Andy Sullivan, your newest conspiracy theory awaits...
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
06:11 AM
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I'm curious about the double standard here. If the U.S. can forbid companies from working with other countries, why is it forbidden for other countries to do the same thing?
Also, it would seem that Halliburton dragged themselves into this mess. Finally, you may want to highlight some of Halliburton's other deals with Iran, you know, if you into that whole intellectual honesty thing.
Posted by: Wah at August 22, 2006 11:04 AM (/Mtjv)
2
so in "Wah world," a warship purposefully firing into a structure that they know to be populated entirely by civilians is the exact same thing as a diplomatic resolution to a multinational business/trade issue.
Funny, I always thought folks like yourself were against wars for oil.
I guess that only applies when you can find an excuse to paint America as the bad guy, huh?
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at August 22, 2006 12:28 PM (g5Nba)
3
Wah,
I'm curious about the double standard here. If the U.S. can forbid companies from working with other countries, why is it forbidden for other countries to do the same thing?
This is relevant to Iran's pirate action against Romanian GSP how exactly?
Also, it would seem that Halliburton dragged themselves into this mess.
But we're talking about GSP here not Halliburton; the only reason Halliburton is even mentioned is because both it and GSP share the same Iranian client Oriental Oil.
Finally, you may want to highlight some of Halliburton's other deals with Iran, you know, if you into that whole intellectual honesty thing.
So, because Halliburton is shoehorned into the original story by very tenuous means, it nonetheless becomes the sole story for you - and CY should aid and abet the MSM in its efforts at sidetracking by piling on random dirt about Halliburton.
Does any of this have some bearing on the story about Iran and GSP or were you just hoping for more dirt on Halliburton?
If any of these GSP riggers come to harm at the hands of the Iranian navy, will you just cover your ears and chant "Halliburton! Halliburton! Halliburton!"
Posted by: Scott at August 22, 2006 02:43 PM (f8958)
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Con Yank
so in "Wah world," a warship purposefully firing into a structure that they know to be populated entirely by civilians is the exact same thing as a diplomatic resolution to a multinational business/trade issue.
How did you pull that out of what I said?
(which was...If the U.S. can forbid companies from working with other countries, why is it forbidden for other countries to do the same thing?)
Besides, all Iran has to do is say they suspected terrorists might be involved and that clears them of any wrongdoing (if I am to understand your position on the 1,300 civilians killed in Lebanon correctly).
From what I can tell, Iran said Company A can no longer work here, as they are a front for VP Cheney's company (and were defrauding the gov't...heh..it's almost like a pattern). Company A was doing work for Company B. Company B decided that assets used by Company A should be seized...and had already done so with another rig. Iran, said "No, I don't think so."
Hence, it's not much of a war for oil (which you rightly, congrats, have assumed that I think is wrong. Why do you think killing people to take their stuff is o.k.?).
I guess that only applies when you can find an excuse to paint America as the bad guy, huh?
Oh lordy, lordy, the strawmen are out in force today. Remember folks, anybody who disagrees with anyone on a right-wing blog HATES AMERICA.
They hate America so much, they even hate watching America make horrid mistakes.
--
Scott
This is relevant to Iran's pirate action against Romanian GSP how exactly?
Interesting, where did you get your pirate information from? What about the other rig? The point being that there are many questions remaining on this story. Especially regarding the "hijacking".
But of course, anyone asking questions about why Halliburton is being paid by Iran obviously HATES AMERICA.
If any of these GSP riggers come to harm at the hands of the Iranian navy, will you just cover your ears and chant "Halliburton! Halliburton! Halliburton!"
Ohh looky, looky, another wonderful strawman, wandering away. If any of those GSP riggers come to harm, my hope would be that those who did so are brought to justice for it.
But glad to see you have absolutely no idea what I think. Guess I'll have to share more.
And may I ask you as well...why do you think it's o.k. to kill people and take their oil? (for the U.S. I mean, it's obivously wrong for Iran to do. Duh, even AMERICA HATERS can see that...)
Posted by: wah at August 22, 2006 07:01 PM (/Mtjv)
5
wah spelled backwards is haw - as in Lord Haw-Haw?
Lord Haw-Haw
Posted by: SouthernRoots at August 22, 2006 10:32 PM (jHBWL)
6
Wooho, Godwin.
I win.
Have a nice day.
Posted by: wah at August 23, 2006 12:21 PM (/Mtjv)
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August 21, 2006
BBC Risks Lebanese Boy for Photo Op with Unexploded Bomb
It is horrific that they would risk a child's life by forcing him so close to an unexploded but still very much "live" bomb.
It is even worse that
they admit it (my bold) (h/t
LGF):
When Um Ali Mihdi returned to her home in the southern Lebanese city of Bint Jbeil two days ago, she found a 1,000lb (450kg) Israeli bomb lying unexploded in her living room.
The shell is huge, bigger than the young boy pushed forward to stand reluctantly next to it while we get our cameras out and record the scene for posterity.
The bomb came through the roof of the single-storey house and half-embedded itself into the floor, just missing the TV.
"Reluctantly" is correct. The Lebanese boy, wearing a blue tank top and jeans that hang on his thin frame, is visably leaning away from the unexploded ordinance, hands in pockets. That someone pushed him forward to be in such a picture, and that the BCC was willing to capitalize on this obvious bit of propaganda staging, going so far to admit it openly, is reprehensible.
This is an admittedly staged photo by an ostensibly professional and once-respected news organization. Martin Asser and any other BBC staff complicit in this event should be fired, without question.
Much to my disgust, the
suicide of photojournalism continues at an every more dizzying pace.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
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Watch this video: He who lives by the bomb, dies by the bomb. (Click the video to start it.) : http://www.strategypage.com/gallery/articles/military_photos_2006810232251.asp
Posted by: Nostradamus at August 21, 2006 02:54 PM (TPJLE)
2
Here in the States such behavior would warrant charges of Risk of Injury to a Minor, Reckless Endangerment, etc. All felonies.
Posted by: Specter at August 21, 2006 03:24 PM (ybfXM)
3
The fin assembly appears to have detached (you can see a grove where it would clamp on, so what is that short pipe like looking thing sticking out the back?
I don't know of any Mk83 fin assemblies that would leave that there once they've gone away.
I don't think that's a real Mk83.
Posted by: Purple Avenger at August 21, 2006 03:51 PM (c/xwT)
4
Funny how you can suddenly muster up some outrage for the children of Lebanon when it's the dreaded Liberal Media putting their lives in danger, isn't it?
So, why is that missile even in their living room? Maybe there was a dead Hezbollah terrorist lying just out of shot.
Posted by: Flying Rodent at August 21, 2006 04:48 PM (mm7AG)
5
So, why is that missile even in their living room?
Perhaps it was dragged there.
Tob
Posted by: Toby928 at August 21, 2006 05:13 PM (ATbKm)
6
Toby928:
Maybe they used a hammer to knock the fins off, for effect. I'm sure someone here can PROVE it's a movie prop over here 10,000 miles away. Aparently there are a lot of ordinance experts on the net. As we all know nobody REALLY got bombed, nobody REALLY got killed, no little kids REALLY blown away. It's ALL just camera tricks.
Posted by: Mike Meyer at August 21, 2006 06:00 PM (HH7vy)
7
I'm not an Air Force guy but the bomb looks like it's where it has fallen originally. And it looks unexploded.
I guess the US sould keep a better quality control on the bombs the manifacture.
Regards, F. Sgt. Alex
Posted by: Fisrt Sergeant Alex at August 21, 2006 06:34 PM (r4IwI)
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rodent
maybe your wrath should be directed at those who started this war--Lebanon and Hezbollah. Or is that a little too straightforward for you?
Posted by: iconoclast at August 21, 2006 06:58 PM (Jpc2l)
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I'm not an Air Force guy but the bomb looks like it's where it has fallen originally.
Really? I would have thought that even 500lb duds would have made sufficent shockwaves to clear the room completely, but I'm no expert either.
Tob
Posted by: Toby928 at August 21, 2006 08:58 PM (ATbKm)
10
Yeah, you're absolutely right, Tob, you're NO expert.
Posted by: Mike Meyer at August 21, 2006 11:03 PM (AqWK6)
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I would have thought that even 500lb duds would have made sufficent shockwaves to clear the room completely
I've seen 180lb of *sand bags* make a pretty big crater going in from 1000' during prototype parachute tests where the chute in question didn't open...and this thing, claimed to be a "1000lb bomb" (which makes it a Mk83) is just sitting on some rubble?
Dubious. Very dubious.
Posted by: Purple Avenger at August 22, 2006 04:56 AM (c/xwT)
12
Real or staged (Looks real enough to me), the whole point is pushing the kid near it to take a picture. THAT, Mike and Rodent, is what is wrong with this picture.
Innocent people die in war, have since wars began, Lebonan doesn't like it, they can kick Hezbolla out since they started it. Isreal has every right to defend itself. Do you deny that?
Posted by: Retired Navy at August 22, 2006 05:21 AM (elhVA)
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After checking out with a munitions expert from Combat Engeneering we reached a conclusion that it might be an unexploded 203mm artilary round (that would explain the form, the fact is has no fins and the little "pipe-like" looking thing - the connection to the ignition capsule).
But if it's indeed a 203mm artilary shell then the building is iether 10 stories tall and this is the last, or it was dragged ito position.
But nothing can be said for sure.
Regards, F. Sgt. Alex
Posted by: First Sergeant Alex at August 22, 2006 05:25 AM (MRCRR)
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Tob, you're NO expert.
Its the capitalized NO that give it undisputed truthiness.
Tob
Posted by: Toby928 at August 22, 2006 09:30 AM (ATbKm)
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Wow, I hadn't realized how ridiculous this 'staged photo' ruckus had become.
Too bad the bomb couldn't have exploded when the kid was at home, eh?
I mean, is that the undertext here? Are you folks really that far out of touch, that you give more grief to somebody who took a photo of a boy next to a bomb in his house rather than to the people that shot it there?
I mean, wow, just wow.
Posted by: Wah at August 22, 2006 11:11 AM (/Mtjv)
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Wah, you seem to be the one out of touch.
We are not saying too bad, we are saying that it was wrong to put the kid in danger to "Pose near the bomb" just for a stupid picture. Is that so hard to believe?
As far as who shot it there, read my earlier post, Hezbolla started it and in my opinion Isreal has every right to defend itself.
Putting the kid near the bomb for a publicity picture was dumb, dumb, dumb.
Posted by: Retired Navy at August 22, 2006 11:26 AM (JSetw)
17
It could be the kids livingroom, his TV.(Tob, note that I CAPITALIZED tv)
Retired Navy:
Yes, Israel has the right to defend itself, that doesn't mean the photos are lies, doesn't mean the wrong people don't get killed or the "right" ones do. Just means somebody IS gonna die, that's all. My opinion, only the luckest fucking moron in the world is going to drag a piece of unexploded ordinance anywhere and live.
Posted by: Mike Meyer at August 22, 2006 11:48 AM (qRu2m)
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Retired Navy,
First I am very much in touch, but we'll get to that later.
Your statement...We are not saying too bad, we are saying that it was wrong to put the kid in danger to "Pose near the bomb" just for a stupid picture.
And I'm saying that shooting a bomb into the kids house is putting him in quite a bit more danger than documenting the fact that a bomb was put into his house.
Is that so hard to believe?
Yes, it's very hard to believe. Why do you think I put so many "wow"s in my post about these rationalizations?
As to your "they started it" defense. I think that's a crap excuse for killing 1,300 civilians. My take on 'who started it' goes back at least six months for this latest thing*, and quite frankly, it's a moot point here.
The point I'm trying to make is that you folks have so wrapped yourself up in rationalizations, that you are now saying it is worse to take a picture of bomb in some kid's house than it is to shoot said bomb into said house.
That's ridiculous.
*The way I saw it unfolding... Hamas was democratically elected, they continued their rhetoric and homemade rocket attacks on Israeli settlements. Right about the time they were going to fold into the PLO (which has already explicitly recognized Israel's right to exist), a Palestinian family was blown to pieces on a beach. Then the first Israeli soldier was kidnapped in response, then the tanks rolled back into Gaza in response, and THEN Hezbollah did their raid in response...then Israel carried out an already planned military excursion to destroy Lebanon's infrastructure and to try to terrorize the Lebanese people into submission. Sorry, but chasing away nearly 1,000,000 civilians from their homes by destroying entire neighborhoods can only be called "terrorism"...at least by sane people.
Also, and I hate to point this out, but doesn't Lebanon also have the right to defend itself? Isn't that why Hezbollah has gotten so popular there lately? Isn't that why they exist? i.e. as a response to the nearly 20 year Isreali occupation.
Posted by: wah at August 22, 2006 11:58 AM (/Mtjv)
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then the tanks rolled back into Gaza in response, and THEN Hezbollah did their raid in response
Gaza is not a part of Hezbollah territory so that's BS on stilts. Regardless, in war people die, good people, bad people, innocent and guilty. The answer is to avoid war and if unavoidable, for the right side to win as quickly as possible.
Its one thing to be a pacifist but why you feel the need to tongue Hezzies' hole is beyond my understanding.
Tob
Posted by: Toby928 at August 22, 2006 12:48 PM (ATbKm)
20
It would never cross your mind whya 1,000-lb. bomb was sitting in that particular living room, as opposed to one of millions of other dwellings and businesses in Lebanon untouched by Israeli bombs, would it?
No, it is much easier to pretend that the Israeli's were purposefully targeting Lebanese civilians. It is much easer than facing the well-documented physical evidence, including video footage of Hezbollah terrroists firing from residential areas, and then hiding their launchers in apartment building parking garages and the garages of individual homes.
You seem to have created a fantasy world for yourself where Hezbollah didn't fire more than 4,000 rockets at Israeli civilians, where Hezbollah didn't hide behind women and children, and where Isreal purposefully targeted little boys instead of terrorists. That simply is not reality, but what you would pick and choose from it.
The simple fact of the matter is that it is worse to knowingly force a child to pose with a large and armed explosive device than it is to drop that explosive device a suspected terrorist position. That is reality.
When your counterbattery radar, ground or airborne recon pinpoints a missile launch site, you kill it, as they are trying to kill your people. That is war.
None of us wishes harm on a child. But we live in the real world, where terrorists hide behind boys such as this, their sisters, and their mothers. You would excuse the terrorists for firing from behind a wall of noncombatant shields, and disallow Israel the right to defend itself. This is also an absurd position, enabling Hezbollah the right to fire on Israeli civilians without fear of reprisal. Of course, that might be perfectly acceptable in your world view.
I suspect that is the case.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at August 22, 2006 01:11 PM (g5Nba)
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Tob
Its one thing to be a pacifist but why you feel the need to tongue Hezzies' hole
It's obvious you aren't worth replying to. So I won't.
Confederate Yankee
True to your nick, your perspective is both dichotomous and hypocritical.
...as opposed to one of millions of other dwellings and businesses in Lebanon untouched by Israeli bombs, would it?
So your argument here as to why the BBC is "reprehensible" and "horrific" is because they found one of the houses that wasn't, but probably should have been destroyed by bombs, and took a photo of a kid next to the bomb that should have made this one of thousands of civilan structures destroyed as a response for the abduction of two soldiers? Also, you seem to think that no one should complain about civilian bombings in Lebanon because Israel didn't destroy the entire country.
No, it is much easier to pretend that the Israeli's were purposefully targeting Lebanese civilians.
Who is pretending? There are reports coming out that such is EXACTLY what Israel did."The Israeli military seems to consider anyone left in the area a combatant who is fair game for attack," Human Rights Executive Director Kenneth Roth said in a statement.
(The Qana attack) is the latest product of an indiscriminate bombing campaign that the Israel Defence Forces have waged in Lebanon", the statement said.
"Indiscriminate bombing in Lebanon (is) a war crime", read the statement's headline.Sorry, that's not quite right. They are accused (after analysis of the data) of "indiscriminate bombing", instead of your strawman of "purposefully targeting civilians". Although, in reality, they equate to the same thing.
Officer A: There's the target, but, umm, there are civilians there.
Officer B: Fire!
.. is pretty close to ...
Officer A: There's the target.
Officer B: Fire!
Now, of course all that changes depending on who's shooting, which is why I'm calling you a hypocrite.You seem to have created a fantasy world for yourself where Hezbollah didn't fire more than 4,000 rockets at Israeli civilians, where Hezbollah didn't hide behind women and children, and where Isreal purposefully targeted little boys instead of terrorists. I see, so...despite killing more Israeli military personnel than civilians, Hezbollah was "firing rockets at Israeli civilians". And despite killing *VASTLY* more civilians than Hezbollah did, Israel still manged to kill *VASTLY* more civilians, AS A RATIO.
Your logic circuits are wired badly. When one looks at the data, it appears that (if part of the "good fight" in a war is to focus fire on military, rather than civilian infrastructure and personnel) Hezbollah fought a much more morally sound compaign. Which is horrific, as what has been designated a terrorist organization was fighting a cleaner war than an ally.
To reiterate:
Hezbollah kill ratio of civilans to military : 44 / 118 (over 2 to 1)
Israel kill ratio of civilians to military : ~1200 / ~200 (over 1 to 6..in the wrong direction).
Now, as to your simple fact.
The simple fact of the matter is that it is worse to knowingly force a child to pose with a large and armed explosive device than it is to drop that explosive device [on] a suspected terrorist position. That is reality.
You see that bolded part? That's the root of your hypocrisy. You accept the general claim that all of Lebanon is a "suspected terrorist position". Since it was all of Lebanon that got targeted, and Israel only targets terrorists, you obviously believe that all of Lebanon is fair game. And fair in a WAR game, means, well, as you mentioned all bets are off (so to speak).
Then you go off into even more ridiculous territory, where it's perfectly fine for Israel to fire on civilans, err terrorist suspects, in self-defense and then you look the other way when Israel carries out what would be considered terrorist acts had they been done by any other country, like...say, Iran. (try this...read that Human Rights Watch report, replace every mention of "Israel" with "Iran" and then tell me they aren't acting like terrorists. And don't miss this one, as well, just so you realize they are calling bullshit on ALL the bullshit.)
Also, you claim that Israel has a divine right to defend itself by bombing civilians areas, but neither Lebanon, nor the people who live there, has a similar divine right.
That's why you are a hypocrite.
Sorry to take so many words to explain the reasoning of your dichotomous view of the world. I know it will fall on deaf ears, but it's still worth a try every now and again.
Finally, your "suicide" links points out that it is things like saying that taking a picture of a kid next to a bomb is worse than dropping said bomb on said kid is what is "murdering" photojournalism. Did you even read the article?
Posted by: wah at August 22, 2006 03:57 PM (/Mtjv)
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Its one thing to be a pacifist but why you feel the need to tongue Hezzies' hole
It's obvious you aren't worth replying to. So I won't.
Can't is more the truth. Look here, you have a conflict between two groups, one, a democracy with full civil rights for its citizens of both genders, religions, sexual orientations, and nation of origin, a nation whose military wears uniforms, carries their weapons openly, and has a clear chain of command. vs A revanchist militia, shielding itself behind civilians while, as a policy, lauching unguided missles into civilian areas. You choose to side with the later, with the limp argument that because Hezbollah lacks the accuracy and the throw weight to kill thousands of jewish civilians this should rebound to their credit. Do you actually have any doubt, that if Hezbollah had missles with 100 times the explosive power they wouldn't be randomly shooting those? Ass, fool, thrice curse ninny. Do you really believe that there would even be a conflict, and hence civilian suffering, in Lebanon if Hezbollah left Israel alone. Israel left southern Lebanon because the cost of occupation was too high for them. I doubt they have any cravings to return.
As I said above, war is a hard hard thing and conflict breed hard and callous men, even in the IDF but there is simply no comparison between these parties as to their intent, aims, and official policies. For you to side with the punkass agressors here shows a level of masochism that would doom the West if it were commonplace.
You're not a humanitarian or anti-war, you're just on the other side.
Tob
Posted by: Toby928 at August 22, 2006 05:26 PM (ATbKm)
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Tob928
Good to see your folks let you back on the computer. Rest assured, once you get past puberty, you will actually be able to express an opinion on international politics without spitting. It doesn't mean you will, but you'll have the ability if you chose to use it.
The only coherent thought you have posted is near the end there. I'll address that.
Israel left southern Lebanon because the cost of occupation was too high for them.
They also took a few thousand prisoners during that 18-year occupation you kinda glossed over. Then there were the massacres.
Hence, there is an obvious reason (those thousands of prisoners taken during the occupation) for the resistance group that made the cost of occupation "too high" to continue it's self-defense attacks (yea, I'm using the...seemingly...popular rationale here that any offensive action is actually pre-emptive self-defense).
I doubt they have any cravings to return.
Obviously. Why else would they reduce the place to rubble?
And yes, I've little doubt that if Lebanon had been allowed to grow its democracy, and was given $5,000,000,000 worth of arms each year by some outside power, they would have done to Israel exactly what was done to them. And we'd be condemning them for their disproportionate response against a budding one-state democracy that let all the people who lived there vote, instead of huddling them onto reservations.
BTW, color-blindness is a disease, but there is some therapy. Given time and lots of patience and hard work, someday, maybe far in the future, but someday, you'll be able to see there are other colors than black and white.
Good luck with the puberty stuff, I know it's rough.
Posted by: wah at August 22, 2006 06:18 PM (/Mtjv)
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Nothing, zip, nada, vapor. I don't know how to categorize your fact free response. Rather than telling me why the Lebanese might wish to harm Jews, I was hoping that you would make a stab at telling me why you feel compelled to take the side of what is, for all intents and purposes, a mercenary army in the hire of Syria and Iran. I suspect its your judenhass but a little confirmation would be good.
As I'm probably old enough to be your grandfather, I should cut you some slack puppy, but I find that I'm less tolerant as I age. I have nothing but contempt for you and your kind. Able to bear the trappings of a civilized man but underneath, pure barbarian.
Tob
Posted by: Toby928 at August 22, 2006 06:31 PM (ATbKm)
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disproportionate response
Proportionate responses just encourage more of the same ad nauseam. "Disproportionate responses", wanton violence totally off the scale, settles disputes with finality (eg. Hiroshima/Nagasaki).
You don't see the Japanese getting uppity anymore and raping Nanking or anything unpleasant like that anymore do you?
Q.E.D. Disproportionate response is a good thing.
Proportionate response is a tool for mushbrained fools looking to engage in the next 100 years war.
Posted by: Purple Avenger at August 22, 2006 07:37 PM (c/xwT)
26
Can anyone logically explain how a "bomb" can be dropped from a plane and end up laying on top of the floor? Even if it were a dud, it would have penetrated the floor and buried itself deeply underground. Besides, it appears to NOT be an aircraft delivered bomb...at least one I've ever seen. *5 year Air Force Vet
Posted by: Doug Rodrigues at August 22, 2006 11:30 PM (7qRZk)
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Ole Tob
Rather than telling me why the Lebanese might wish to harm Jews [like those thousands of prisoners taken during an occupation and those, ya know, slaughters], I was hoping that you would make a stab at telling me why you feel compelled to take the side of what is, for all intents and purposes, a mercenary army in the hire of Syria and Iran.
I'm curious, what are all of your intents and purposes? Because from that perspective (the mercenary army one) guess who's mercenary army Israel is? And you know whose perspective that is?
You see this huge global affair, all tied to together, some vast conspiracy by the brown people to destroy the slightly less brown people.
I see people fighting for their lives. On both sides. What I see that you and the terrorists whose perspective you have adopted can't see is an end to this mess. A new generation that is ready to be one. To get along, and build a world together. In peace.
You can't see that because you probably won't live to see it. Sorry about that. But it's there. It's a long way off, now, at least another generation...thanks to the disastrous policies of those who are actually CALLING for a 100 year war. Yep, them damn neocons. The American Century of War (peace).
But we'll get over that blight, soon enough.
I'm sorry that all you see is global conspiracies, and off-white people gathering on your lawn.
If you get out of this echo chamber, and explore the interwebs a bit, talk to the kids, see what they see.
See what they don't see.
See how well we get along, across borders, cultures, religions, etc. You might be surprised to realize that we are all one people on this little rock, and you ... [string of expletives deleted]..assholes keep mongering for more war.
Keep excusing the uncexcusable, keep calling for the unimaginable (Purple Avenger, save some time, just post "glass parking lot" next time and I'll understand your [genocidal] philosophy precisely and with much less typing on your part), and keep glorying death.
You call me a barbarain. You old fool. Wake up.
The world has moved on.
/...and go judenhass yourself.
Posted by: wah at August 22, 2006 11:40 PM (IfLXD)
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it appears to NOT be an aircraft delivered bomb...at least one I've ever seen.
it's a 203mm artillery shell from what I understand*. They showed 'em firing a lot on CNN, but never really showed what it looks like when they land...at least not in real time.
/*could be wrong...about ths.
Posted by: wah at August 22, 2006 11:42 PM (IfLXD)
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Wah, I have been across borders. I have talked to the people in other countries around the globe. I have been there and see a lot of good people. I also, however, see a lot of 'bad' people. There truely are those out there that just don't like the 'west' or our ideas and oppose them at every turn, the worst being terrorism. It won't change in a generation because they keep recruiting as much as they can.
You may see it on the internet but on the planet, it just isn't there like you believe. How do you change a violent mindset when the people you are trying to get to understand democracy just don't believe you, don't want it (want to keep control), and because of beliefs/religion, believe you should either be subjucated or dead?
Posted by: Retired Navy at August 23, 2006 05:35 AM (y67bA)
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Another vacuous and impotent post, serving only to hightlight your prefidious toadying to barbarism, Wah. Now you express a faux pox on both your houses moral preening that would have earned you a mere Feh! from me before but its too late. You've chosen your swamp to stand in, and any grasping for the high ground shows that you lack even the fortitude of your heinous allies.
I was born in the aftermath of one existential civilization war, lived to see another through to victory, and now find my nation involved in a third. Each time the West has had to suffer with your kind, twisted creatures so filled with loathing for themselves and their own culture that they would seek common cause with the vilest of thugs. An enemy without pity or conscience. Killers who kill grandmothers and their grandchildren with blind rocket fire, as a policy, and call it a victory. Shield themselves with noncombatants and when the innocent are inevitably killed, parade their sad corpses as a PR coup. Groups truly worth of the contempt of civilized men, deserving of the appellation Hosti Humani Generis and destined for a dogs's death.
Yankee runs a classy joint here and decorum prevents me from using the appropriate language to express my disgust with you and your kind of "progressive" bootlicker and your dreams of a judenfrei world. However, AOSHQ is auditioning for a new resident troll and this Friday, we will be commemorating The Wreck of the Hesperus. You can be the star attraction.
I appologies to the Yankee for my screed and have had my say. I can only plead that I lack the patience to suffer pretentious fools and lackeys anymore.
Tob
Posted by: Toby928 at August 23, 2006 09:04 AM (ATbKm)
31
Retired Navy
There truely are those out there that just don't like the 'west' or our ideas and oppose them at every turn, the worst being terrorism. It won't change in a generation because they keep recruiting as much as they can.
And there truly are people here calling for genocidal acts of mass destruction. And the teorrorists have been given a HUGE BOON in recruiting because we are following the neocon plan for 100 years of war and remaking the ME in our image. We have done exactly what OBL said we would do. As such, we've given their framing MASS amounts of evidence to support it.
The reaction there is much the same as that of people here worried about the oxymoronic phrase "islamo-fascism". People see an outside threat, and support those they think are best equipped to fight it. This is why radical Islam doesn't fear elections, it wins them. And why radical militarism won the last major election here.
How do you change a violent mindset when the people you are trying to get to understand democracy just don't believe you, don't want it (want to keep control), and because of beliefs/religion, believe you should either be subjucated or dead?
It's not "democracy" we want to export. That, they understand just fine. What we really want to export is "liberalism" (which you folks hate, I know...kinda ironic, eh?). And by "liberalism" I mean in the classic sense of equal rights for women and minorities. The rule of law, balance of power, peaceful transition of power, etc. All the things that people who hate liberals hate.
Only the fundies (much like the ones here) want to convert or kill everyone. The strategy should have been to avoid ultra-violent means, as that only radicalizes a people and causes they to gravitate towards to same violent types ind defense. The strategy should have been to build, not destroy.
We had a great opportunity to do this in Afghanistan. To rebuild a country that was destroyed fighting commies. Instead, the energy interests realized we now could whip up the fear to support an occupation of Iraq...and we've all seen how wonderful that tangent has worked out.
The general strategy should have been to marginalize the radicals, not lionize them and make their power seem great. To build real, and physical, and lasting solutions to the problems we all face (transportation, education, health care), rather than trying to Shock and Awe a population into submission.
But the neocon strategy was used, and now we've got another generation of people, sitting at home, staring at Western bombs in their living rooms....wondering...who is going to protect me from those savages...
Tob
You're drooling again. Wipe that up.
Posted by: wah at August 23, 2006 01:51 PM (/Mtjv)
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You're drooling again. Wipe that up.
In a battle of wits, you are truly unarmed.
Tob
Posted by: Toby928 at August 23, 2006 03:16 PM (ATbKm)
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They may understand Democracy just fine, but Liberalism is not just understood by them, but is being used as a weapon against us. They play the news, liberal politics, and bleeding heart strategy every chance they get.
Afganistan is still being rebuilt, it doesn't happen over night.
The 'Neocon' Stragegy may need work, but what ideas came from the lib side? Other than patting them on the head and giving them everything they want?
I don't relish the idea of killing anyone but if it comes down to our (U.S.) way of life and our very lives itself, or them, I choose us.
Iraq has been unstable since, ever. We didn't make it that way. There have been overthrown dictators there since the turn of the century. Saddam was just the last one (and hopefully the last) in a long line.
Wars between Democratic nations don't really happen. Look at history and find one that happened between two Democratic nations. When they become Democratic over there it will be a boon to the world.
Posted by: Retired Navy at August 24, 2006 05:51 AM (lNB+R)
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What Wah is trying to say is, that WE as the west need to understand the loving, tolerant, peacful ways of Islam and to open our arms and except it as the one true religion. To be led like sheep and be assimilated into that most wonderous of religions and live in paradise. Where you have no rights or freedoms, could almost certainly be killed for having pemarital sex, sliting you own son or daughters throats because they wanted to marry someone of their own choosing. Be beaten by the religious police for not praying when your are called to prayer or they saw your ankle underneath your burka. Woman have absolutly no rights and are forbidden to be educated. BTW it is a death sentence to own a Christian Bible. So let me tell you something you ignominious POS I have no tolerance left in me for your version of nirvana. I have no desire to lay down with the wolves. Their goal is total world domination not to just be excepted and left alone, but to rule the planet under one religion. No freedom of choice, No elected officials, No Freedom of speech BTW you seem to enjoy. How ignorant are you of the world and its history? We cannot let them have it their way. History is repeating itself. This is slow global domination, no different than Hitler or Stalin, Isreal no matter how you look at it through your severe dementia is fighting for its existence. Its a tiny country surrounded by wolves. Those same wolves that let their innocents be killed by placing them in harms way. Then praise a lunatic like Nassrallah, as a hero. You know why? Because somebody makes damn sure they say the right thing or else. Fear like it or not gets results. Remember "Oil for Food" that did alot of good, Sadaam bought weapons. YOU need to understand the ME culture not I. I understand it, you would much rather have them at your feet than your throat. Your bloviating and spinning the facts will not hold up in the court of world opinion. Iraq will be a democratic country someday, like Retired Navy stated your are not going to change a mindset overnight. If Iran and Syria would stop supporting the insurgency and propping up the likes of Al Sadr and Nassrallah this would be over.
Posted by: Faithful Patriot at August 24, 2006 07:03 AM (elhVA)
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wah -
"Only the fundies (much like the ones here) want to convert or kill everyone"
Did I miss something or is this not the expressed goal of Hezbollah when it comes to the Jews or us for that matter
Your thoughts are that they Israel should try
"To build real, and physical, and lasting solutions to the problems we all face (transportation, education, health care)"
Would Hezbollah accept a single cent towards this goal from Israel? How can Israel be expected to build educational facilities in a country that allows terrorists to lob rockets into their country.
Let me guess, if we just apologies to al-Qaeda and build them some roads and schools they will like us again and not want to convert the entire world to Islam, and destroy al infidels as is dictated to them by their interpretation of the Koran?
Posted by: Web at August 24, 2006 10:11 AM (3como)
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Forcing God's Hand
This just in from CNN:
Iran's supreme leader Ayatollah Ali Khamenei said Monday that Tehran will continue to pursue nuclear technology, state television reported.
Khamenei's declaration came on the eve of Iran's self-imposed August 22 deadline to respond to a Western incentives package for it to roll back its nuclear program. The United Nations has given Tehran until the end of August to suspend uranium enrichment.
The supreme leader's remarks also came the day after Iran's armed forces tested surface-to-surface missiles Sunday in the second stage of war games near its border with Iraq. (Full story)
"The Islamic Republic of Iran has made its own decision and in the nuclear case, God willing, with patience and power, will continue its path," Khamenei was quoted as saying by the broadcast.
He accused the United States of pressuring Iran despite Tehran's assertions that it was not seeking to develop nuclear weapons, as the United States and several of its allies have contended.
"Arrogant powers and the U.S. are putting their utmost pressure on Iran while knowing Iran is not pursuing nuclear weapons," he said.
Iran on Sunday said it will offer a "multifaceted response" to the incentives proposal.
For those who have been following
these rumors for the past few weeks, the promise of a "multifaceted response" is an ominous, if uncertain, portent:
This year, Aug. 22 corresponds, in the Islamic calendar, to the 27th day of the month of Rajab of the year 1427. This, by tradition, is the night when many Muslims commemorate the night flight of the prophet Muhammad on the winged horse Buraq, first to "the farthest mosque," usually identified with Jerusalem, and then to heaven and back (c.f., Koran XVII.1). This might well be deemed an appropriate date for the apocalyptic ending of Israel and if necessary of the world. It is far from certain that Mr. Ahmadinejad plans any such cataclysmic events precisely for Aug. 22. But it would be wise to bear the possibility in mind.
Iranian President Ahmadinejad and the
Hojjatieh movement of the ruling mullahcracy in Iran are so radical that they were banned in 1983 by Ayatollah Khomeini, and it is this sect of Shiite Islam that seek to force the return of the 12th Shiite Imam, Muhammad ibn Hasan. Followers of the three major world religions all believe that the world will one day face an End Times scenario, but only this sect feeling that forcing the hand of God is
within their grasp:
...rooted in the Shiite ideology of martyrdom and violence, the Hojjatieh sect adds messianic and apocalyptic elements to an already volatile theology. They believe that chaos and bloodshed must precede the return of the 12th Imam, called the Mahdi. But unlike the biblical apocalypse, where the return of Jesus is preceded by waves of divinely decreed natural disasters, the summoning of the Mahdi through chaos and violence is wholly in the realm of human action. The Hojjatieh faith puts inordinate stress on the human ability to direct divinely appointed events. By creating the apocalyptic chaos, the Hojjatiehs believe it is entirely in the power of believers to affect the Mahdi's reappearance, the institution of Islamic government worldwide, and the destruction of all competing faiths.
Because of the belief of the
Hojjatieh that they can, with human hands, bring about Apocalypse, the significance of tomorrow's date sets up in their eyes a divine opportunity that the rest of the world would be wise to treat with all due seriousness.
Considering the magnitude of the threat, I would be quite unamazed if the long-range F-15I "Ra'am" and F-16I "Soufa" and other aircraft of the Israeli Air Force were not now sitting in their hangers fully-fueled under heavy guard, wings heavy with the weight of the most terrible weapons known to man, as
Dolphin-class submarines and their American counterparts patrol the Persian Gulf and Mediterranean with their own cataclysmic payloads.
It is fully consistent with the
Hojjatieh sect's philosophy to try to "
wipe Israel off the map" in hopes of triggering the expected result, and fully within Israel's sovereign rights to respond with all due mortal force to a nation seeking its annihilation. The
Hojjatieh seek an end to their world to bring forth Muhammad ibn Hasan, and that they may be able to burn Israel to the ground in the process of bringing forth their Hidden Imam only makes the attraction of Apocalypse stronger.
Do the
Hojjatieh seek to end the world on their terms? If is is indeed their plan, I pray that they now reconsider.
The three major religions that arose in the Middle East and propagated around this world all believe in a Creator, One that created All. If these major world religions are correct, then God alone is all powerful, and only God alone can chose the time and place of the beginning and the end, the Alpha and the Omega. By attempting to force God's hand, to attempt to control the End Times, the
Hojjatieh are creating a great sin on a scale never before imagined, spanning across all nations, all believers, and faiths. The
Hojjatieh seem primed to seek to create the greatest blasphemy of all.
As a Christian believer in a just and powerful God, I feel certain that while millions if not tens of millions could die if the Ahmadinejad and the other
Hojjatieh have their way, that their deaths and the deaths of their unsuspecting victims (growing
more unsuspecting every day) will only bring an end to lives, not a beginning of paradise.
Man cannot force or control the hand of God. A Pharaoh once tried, and the firstborn of all of Egypt died as a result. If Ahmadinejad's attempt to play God is realized, then the firstborn of the Middle East will only be a fraction of the overall toll.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
09:22 AM
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1
>Man cannot force or control the hand of God.
So what does praying for stuff do?
Posted by: salvage at August 21, 2006 10:11 AM (xWitf)
2
It doesn't force the hand of God. A prayer is a request, or a plea for help and guidance.
Posted by: Retired Navy at August 21, 2006 10:46 AM (elhVA)
3
Nothing new here...move along.
Khamenei and the Iranian's are definately on-a-roll, Supreme Leader Calls for Muslim Unity against US and while they feel they've the momentum, they almost certainly won't allow it let to lessen - not an iota.
Tomorrow? Eh...a dud. Beyond that? Hazarding a guess, if Iraq, Afghanistan, Lebanon...who all knows where else...can be made worse, they'll go-up in flames and the Iranian's will blame everything on the Great Satan's presence. Case-in-point - one they've been bombing into the Iraqi's.
For our part, we'd better not sit back in our saddle and underestimate their intent; when these SOB's threaten, they'll make good on that threat - something we somehow repeatedly forget.
Posted by: Eg at August 21, 2006 11:23 AM (mw+rq)
4
Wow, finally someone someone has the courageous humility remind us scheming humans of the big picture. Biblically, the Hebrew scriptures have long said "..I am God and there is no one like Me, declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times things which have not been done, saying, 'My purpose will be established, And I will accomplish all My good pleasure.'" To Islam which says they believe in the Torah but that they were corrupted, the verse I quoted is from Isaiah 46:9-10, which was found within a complete Isaiah Dead Sea Scroll, nearly identical to the more recent. Great point "Retired Navy" about prayer, seems unfathomable the relationship between sovereign control of a Creator outside a created time dimension and yet the many commands to pray, somehow human prayer must be enetered into His way of fulfilling prophecy--Daniel chapter 9, praying from Jewish exile, illustrates this clearly if you're interested. Jeremiah also was told "Then you will call upon Me and come and pray to Me, and I will listen to you." I know secular people don't like to hear about religious themes, but some of us truly believe prayer is part of the battle, something humans can do.
Posted by: ER at August 21, 2006 11:45 AM (CBdqs)
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As scary and unbalanced as the mullahcracy are, I found this statement very interesting (provided it was translated accurately):
"Arrogant powers and the U.S. are putting their utmost pressure on Iran while knowing Iran is not pursuing nuclear weapons," he said.
Why? Simply because the US was not included in the "arrogant powers". Now maybe we were excluded from this group because we are considered "worse than arrogant." Quite probably. But it also could be that Khamenei is trying to take a slightly different stance toward us than in the past. Intriguing possibility.
Nevertheless - should they be crazy enough to try to take out Israel or other allies, they would bring "glass parking lot" retribution upon themselves. Unfortunately - as we know from news events leaking out of Iran - there are an awful lot of people there who do not agree with the government. And they would suffer as well.
Posted by: Specter at August 21, 2006 11:53 AM (ybfXM)
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Forcing the Hand of God? One would have the belief that God is on your side and would need your help in his decision process. And the other is the belief that what ever you do is ok with the Almighty, which includes, but not limited to the mass killing of innocent people. It is really scary to think that a country, any country would welcome the end of all things. This is totally different from the cold war. Guaranteed Mutual Destruction, when you were afraid of total destruction and these nutjob's look forward to it.
Posted by: Faithful Patriot at August 21, 2006 12:17 PM (elhVA)
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I don't place the Arabian pagan moon god allah on the same plane as God. Allah may be on the same plane as Baal but certainly not God. Mohammad claimed a vision delivered by Gabriel. I am more inclined to believe Mohammad was visited by Beelzebub.
I have no doubt that a religion that embraces death more than life would be arrogant enough to believe their human events could force the hand of their god. Fortunately, their god is not in control. The end times will occur in Gods time, not allah’s.
A smile crosses my lips everytime I think about Zarqawi et al, standing before God wondering what went wrong…
Posted by: Old Soldier at August 21, 2006 12:46 PM (X2tAw)
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>A prayer is a request or a plea for help and guidance.
Okay, so can a prayer change your god's mind?
Posted by: salvage at August 21, 2006 01:29 PM (xWitf)
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salvage, to most people a prayer to God is communication. I have no idea what a prayer to god is...
Posted by: Old Soldier at August 21, 2006 01:32 PM (X2tAw)
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So it's a communication... 'kay so the prayerer doesn't expect any reaction one way or the other? So if you pray to your god (or God, whatever you want to call it) you're not asking it to do anything?
Posted by: salvage at August 21, 2006 03:29 PM (jQnuN)
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Obtuse....everybody understand what I'm sayin?
Posted by: Specter at August 21, 2006 03:47 PM (ybfXM)
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I'm not being obtuse, can you or can you not change your god (or God)'s mind about something?
It's a simple question that no one seems to want to answer.
Posted by: salvage at August 21, 2006 05:13 PM (jQnuN)
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The pocket Catholic dictionary defines prayer as: The voluntary response to the awareness of God's presence. This response may be an acknowledgment of God's greatness and of a person's total dependence on him (adoration), or gratitude for his benefits to oneself and others (thanksgiving), or sorrow for sins committed and begging for mercy (expiation), or asking for graces needed (petition), or affection for God, who is all good (love).
salvage is asking about petition: asking for graces needed. Asking petition of God is not to change His mind. God wishes to bless his children. Matthew 7 : 7 - 11 indicates to me that blessings are available to those who ask. One of God's many roles is teacher. A truly humble prayer given freely and in deference to God will teach the petitioner a great deal. God will decide how to answer or not answer your prayer.
Posted by: Bob at August 21, 2006 06:02 PM (9eDDd)
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Can a prayer change God's mind?
Consider this: we pray, not because we need to convince God of our wants or needs (He knows them already), but because he wants us to ask. Why? To help us learn and grow and exhibit our faith in Him, not to mention develop humility. Prayer is God's gift to us, not ours to him.
In the same vein, can we turn God's mind toward ours? No, the purpose of prayer is to turn ours to God's. A wise man once said, if God is the creator of all things, the only thing that is truly ours to give is our will. But he won't take it, we must ofter it willingly. I believe it was Abraham Lincoln who said, it is not so important to know if God is on our side, as it is to know if we are on His!
Food for thought.
Posted by: Todd at August 21, 2006 06:11 PM (QKtQX)
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Hi and good night (evening, morining, afternoon or whatever you got there) to everyone.
To CY:
Do you expect any less of us (IDF) from what you've written (of course after the Lebanon disaster you might expect our command to prepare an airborne infantry raid agaist flying ballistic missiles)?
We are as ready as we can be, and more. Not only on the offense but on the defense too (since Mutual Assured Distruction is not a deterrent in this case, Weapons of Doom wouldn't scare the Iranians from launching their attack).
As for the defense - F16I "Sufa" (storm) could be used to take out incoming bombers, F15I "Ra'am" (thunder) carrying vacum bombs or GBU's would be used to preemptively take out missle launchers and missile silos. Also, one mustn't forget the "Hetz" (arrow) MK3, the best anti-balistic missile that exists today. As far as my knowlage goes, several batteries of those have been secretly and silently deployed in IAF bases throughout Israel.
And one more defensive/offensive thing - "The Jericho Sanction". It's a part of Israel's nuclear doctrine. It goes something like this: should Israel be threatened by nuclear weapons, Israel holds to herself the right to a PREEMPTIVE nuclear strike against the would-be enemy in order to eliminate their nuclear potential. Of course this will be used as a last resort, but as things go we might come even to that.
Also I wouldn't rule out a ground commando raid against launching sites under preparation for launch (though I do belive our command lacks the balls to order such a thing and I'd be quite surprised if my team [or any other SF team for that metter] will be called to prepare for such action any time soon).
But I guess we'l soon find out what will happen.
To salvage:
As far as I've been schooled in religion, both in Christianity and Jewdaism God is outside the golbal-mortal scheme of things. He is allmighty, all knowing, He stands before all time and after all time - meaning he's out of the loop of time we all liv in. He watches the world like an open book - only He can see it from the begining to the end at once. So in such a case He already knows what you asked for in your prayer (as much as He knows the fate of every single atom in your being from the beginning to the end) and decided whether to grant it to you or not even before the world was created (or after the world was destroyed) - since time is of no object to Him. SO if you go by this belief - one cannot tip God's hand by a prayer or any other action since God, being an all-knowing entity set out of time, has already decided on the metter of that individual's fate and should that individual be granted devine aid or not.
Regards F. Sgt. Alex
Posted by: Fisrt Sergeant Alex at August 21, 2006 06:17 PM (r4IwI)
Posted by: Mike Meyer at August 21, 2006 11:18 PM (AqWK6)
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F. Sgt. Alex
Okay so everything has been predetermined so what's the point? Since God knows the alpha and omega of the everything our choices are meaningless because they are not our choices are they? They’re a script written before we were born that we cannot (by your ideas) deviate from.
Seems rather meaningless to me, for a god to create a universe full of stuff that has already happened as far as he’s concerned.
But thanks for the answer.
Posted by: salvage at August 22, 2006 07:11 AM (xWitf)
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salvage,
For what it is worth, at the crux of all of this is that humanity (and many other works) seem to be instilled with the ability and will to make choices. God or whatever label you personally affix to that which is omnipotent and responsible for all is assumed to know your tendencies much as a parent can watch the wheels going around in their kids head as they work towards a conclusion and subsequent action.
When you make a choice that runs against the grain of the desired grand schema, the same displeasure you would feel as your kid beat his sister and set the house on fire is assumed to be present on a massive scale. The kids are subsequently dealt with, hopefully lessons are learned but you still have a bruised sister standing amongst burnt up Barbies and a lingering displeasure remains in memories for some time to come.
So while outcomes are likely known by God, the decisions that bring them about appear to be largely ours so that we can hopefully learn that which is necessary to arrive at the proper conclusions pleasing to God.
I have no doubt that this explanation makes a thorough hash of many faiths but perhaps the above may help answer some of your questions.
I have to ask this; are you on paTroll using the time honored technique recognized by parents from all points - "But why?...."
And if so Why?
Posted by: Brian at August 22, 2006 08:25 AM (6CDOn)
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But back to your first question salvage, what is prayer for?
Go ask your parent.
See?
Posted by: Brian at August 22, 2006 08:29 AM (6CDOn)
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While others have made some excellent points, I'd like to offer up my own answer to salvage. While I may be wrong in what I infer from his comments, he seems to confuse prayer with begging or demanding things from God.
He asks:
So what does praying for stuff do?
Okay, so can a prayer change your god's mind?
So it's a communication... 'kay so the prayerer doesn't expect any reaction one way or the other? So if you pray to your god (or God, whatever you want to call it) you're not asking it to do anything?
I'm not being obtuse, can you or can you not change your god (or God)'s mind about something?
It's a simple question that no one seems to want to answer.
Okay so everything has been predetermined so what's the point? Since God knows the alpha and omega of the everything our choices are meaningless because they are not our choices are they? They’re a script written before we were born that we cannot (by your ideas) deviate from.
Seems rather meaningless to me, for a god to create a universe full of stuff that has already happened as far as he’s concerned.
But thanks for the answer.
According to my faith (and we are not all of the same faith, I don't think, so your mileage may vary), God knew us and loved us (warts and all) before we were ever born, and will love us no matter what. What God wants from us more than anything is an individual relationship with each and every one of us, one-on one. That's pretty heady stuff once you get your mind around it. He cares very much about you, salvage, believes in you, and wants to have a relationship with you.
But you know something else?
God granted each of us free will.
He will not force you to accept him, and will not force you to pursue him. He wants to have a relationship with you, but he won't make up your mind for you. He'll simply welcome you with open arms when and if you do decided you want to seek him.
I'm personally quite convinced that he isn't too keen on religion itself, as the process and formalities and rules imposed by people get in the way of the individual relationship. Religion screws a lot of things up (simply pick up a history book), leading to all sorts of manmade problems that get blamed on God. We really screw things up quiet a bit. Because of this, for a lot of years, I got away from God because I confused the relationship I wanted with religion I was a part of. Once I learned to push the rules and the process set down by man for a direct relationship, I felt a much stronger connection. God doesn't want to talk down to you. I believe he is your creator, savior and friend.
So to answer your questions more directly from my point of view, "what does prayer do?"
Prayer exists as an "always on" communication channel between me and God (and I speak of the Trinity of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit when I say God here). I don't have to be in church, or kneeling with my hands clasped to talk to God. It isn't about a position of a tone or specific subjects. I talk to him much as I would anyone I love or am friends with. I speak to him in reverence and passion, with want, wonder, laughter and even anger at times, about all sorts of things. Nothing is off limits. How can it be, when he's omnipotent?
Another thing about God is the many hats he wears. It goes with the omnipotence thing, but often people get bogged down in the thought that God should be addressed solely as a King, and (the King of Kings), and there is a time and a place for that, but He is also known as the wonderful Counselor.
Prayer to God isn't about asking for things to happen or not happen. If that is all you use prayer for, in my opinion, you're missing the point. Prayer is a back and forth between you and the best friend you will ever have, the One who loves you more than any human on this planet possibility could. What does prayer do? It soothes the soul, helps you find answers, and provides guidance and inner peace.
Salvage then asked if prayer change God's mind. The short answer? I doubt it. The simple fact is that God I believe in is omnipotent, which means he knows all, and therefore, how could our puny human minds come up with an angle he hasn't thought of? We may not like what our lives bring us, but to steal a bit from Garth Brooks, "just because he doesn't answer doesn't mean he don't care. some of God's greatest gifts are unanswered prayers."
Salvage then asks.. and I think he's being quite honest when he asks:
So it's a communication... 'kay so the prayerer doesn't expect any reaction one way or the other? So if you pray to your god (or God, whatever you want to call it) you're not asking it to do anything?
Of course we expect a reaction. Not quite the answer you were probably expecting, but when I talk with God, most times I get a response, and quite frequently sooner rather than later, but it is always was worth the wait. The immediate reaction one might get is personal. Not "private" personal, but it effects each one of us differently, it is individualized. The problem is that we've spent so much of our lives pushing away from God, that we tend to have a hard time listening to what he is trying to tell us. Learning to talk to God is like learning a new language. It isn't always easy to pick up, but it is worth the effort, and once you understand it, you won't easily forget it.
And ask for what I discuss during my prayers, certainly, I do ask for things. I ask for guidance, and pray to help others frequently, but asking for stuff isn't all there is to prayer. AS Bob notes above there are all kinds of prayers, and I think most of mine are thanking God for various blessings, and asking for forgiveness (which he always grants) when I've screwed something up, which being a normal flawed human, I do quite often. I'm in love with and in awe of God, of how much he cares for us, for me and you as individuals. That the Almighty truly cares for each of us is a lot to get your head around, but once you start to get that--in my case at least--I'm constantly humbled that a being so powerful could care so much about my lil’ old soul. It's heady stuff.
I'm not being obtuse, can you or can you not change your god (or God)'s mind about something?
It's a simple question that no one seems to want to answer.
Todd nailed the answer:
Consider this: we pray, not because we need to convince God of our wants or needs (He knows them already), but because he wants us to ask. Why? To help us learn and grow and exhibit our faith in Him, not to mention develop humility. Prayer is God's gift to us, not ours to him.
In the same vein, can we turn God's mind toward ours? No, the purpose of prayer is to turn ours to God's. A wise man once said, if God is the creator of all things, the only thing that is truly ours to give is our will. But he won't take it, we must offer it willingly. I believe it was Abraham Lincoln who said, it is not so important to know if God is on our side, as it is to know if we are on His!
Salvage then asks:
Okay so everything has been predetermined so what's the point? Since God knows the alpha and omega of the everything our choices are meaningless because they are not our choices are they? They’re a script written before we were born that we cannot (by your ideas) deviate from.
Seems rather meaningless to me, for a god to create a universe full of stuff that has already happened as far as he’s concerned.
I disagree with my esteemed Israeli friend when he says God is "outside the global/mortal scheme of things." Not that that is incorrect because God certainly has the long view, but He's also close enough to touch, and even inside you once you invite him in to your life. He's a constant companion, with you always.
And while God knows how your life begins and ends, he does not preordain your path. Again, he granted us free will to make our own decisions. It is because of this free will that Bad Things as well as good things can happen, because people were freed by God to make their own way and follow their own paths. It is the journey that you take that matters. Life is a "choose your own adventure" story with the greatest Author of all there for guidance on how to write it, if you only ask for his help.
Salvage, if you really want questions to your questions I can offer up a wonderful book recommendation to get you started on your way. There is a book called Dinner with a Perfect Stranger that is a very quick read, and should only take you a couple of hours. I just got done with the sequel to that book last night in about an hour, but I read faster than most. I sincerely hope you find the answers you are looking for.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at August 22, 2006 09:56 AM (g5Nba)
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>So while outcomes are likely known by God,
Likely? How can there be an uncertainty factor with an omnipotent being?
>I have to ask this; are you on paTroll using the time honored technique recognized by parents from all points - "But why?...."
And if so Why?
Because I’m trying to understand, the more and more I learn about religions the less and less sense it makes. I’m trying to see what you see to better understand the mentality behind it. I’ll be honest, I mock the heck out of it because it strikes me as terribly silly but at the same time I’m genuinely curious as to the whys.
See to me if there really was a god there would be no questions, how can a perfect being that created something like a universe leave behind any confusion? That’s why I cannot accept the Judaeo-Christian beliefs; the Bible is a whole raft of contradictions and inconsistencies. I find it hard to believe the same hand that made something as clever as an eyeball or a humming bird would express itself in such a clumsy and convoluted manner. The Bible is such a hodgepodge that it could only come from the maelstrom that is the human mind.
For instance the whole thing about Job has always bugged me, even when I was a kid. Why would God need to prove anything to the Devil? Wouldn’t God already know the outcome of any test of his creation? Why would he care what his evil opponent thought about anything? Putting someone through misery just to prove a point to a rival? Doesn’t that strike anyone else as being terribly human and very far from divine?
Anyway, the whole “forcing the hand of god” thing reminded me of one of the questions I have, that is can your god’s mind be changed?
And if the answer is no than I wonder what people pray to their gods for when they make a specific request as from what I understand religious people are prone to do.
If the answer is yes than that calls into question the whole omnipotent thing.
I’ve stopped talking to my parents about religion, it never goes well.
Thanks for you answers tho!
Posted by: salvage at August 22, 2006 10:07 AM (xWitf)
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To correct a misunderstanding....
I didn't mean that our path in life is predetermined, simply God, being omnipotent, allmighty and set out of the loop which we call time knows everything that has been, is and will be, forever. But still - our destiny is ours to forge it and unfold a new chapter of our lives every day as we advance through time making our choices for the good or for the bad. The fact that God knows it all doesn't make it any less real for us mortals. We have our will and we make our fate by our own hands, the prayer is one of the aspects of this will, but our needs, problems and struggles are known to him already. That was my point.
And to CY - I did say that God stands out of our 4 dimetional universe, but I do agree with you that he is close to us, clother then anything else in the world ever could be. The two things don't contredict each other.
And one more thing - there IS wrong and right in a religion and in our relationship with God.
Religion is just a set of man-made rules to solidify that relationship. But ANY such relationship must be based on the rules of common sense (like that killing is wrong, children should be protected, anyone has the right to belive in what they want and etc.).
One a religion strays too far from this common sense it can't be treated as legitimate by sane people with healthy common sense. That means that religions that contredict those basic rules of common sense (like religions that allow pedofilia, call for murder of unbelivers and etc.) should be BANNED. Not only because they endanger innocents, but also because they are an affront to God and all that He stands for.
Regards, F. Sgt. Alex
Posted by: First Sergeant Alex at August 22, 2006 08:15 PM (ri/u4)
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Do the Hojjatieh seek to end the world on their terms? If is is indeed their plan, I pray that they now reconsider.
It worked! Oh, thank you, just and powerful God! We are spared!
Posted by: bad attitude at August 23, 2006 01:52 AM (4K53w)
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Good morning. Well salvage, much of what you have said could have come out of my mouth along the way.
The uncertainty of the world and your understanding does not spring from a lack of God's omnipotence but rather from the lack of ours. That fact really is pretty self evident if you give it some thought. Having spent a few years working away at it, I'll share a few aspects of where my faith has lead me:
You see, as we delve farther into real world knowledge, yet more mysteries unfold. Cosmologists have a running joke. As scientists climb the mountain of knowledge and approach the summit, they are stunned to find a handful of holy men at the top. When asked how they could possibly understand the origins of the universe the holy men respond; "Simple, we have faith".
We are finite vessels. It would be the mother of all blivets (ten pounds of crap, meet mister five pound bag) to fit the knowledge of the universe within us so faith is like that box drawn on the blackboard in the middle of the equation that simply says "and here the miracle occurs".
The real mystery is within the box but since that is to big to get your head around, we'll argue about the wording. Of real concern to many should be what is in the black box but our limitations shift the focus to the syntax of the writing on it. And oh by the way, even when we marginally agree on what the writing should say, what font to use, etc, we'll still write it down wrong amongst ourselves.
As for the confusion, well your children don't/won't learn without being confused and making mistakes and since we're grown up children....
So relax. Continue to ask questions and try to avoid a great deal of frustration - yours and others. This advice springs from someone wound so tightly he makes springs scream but hey, it's a goal. You aren't going to get it all and that which you think you have a handle on is going to be in conflict with what others think. Sometimes that conflict is going to lead to heads rolling.
At that point your questions should probably be whose?
Hope that helps to address some of the issues that underlie the specifics you have mentioned.
Posted by: Brian at August 23, 2006 06:39 AM (6CDOn)
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Goodbye, Joe
Via CNN:
Photographer Joe Rosenthal, who won a Pulitzer Prize for his immortal image of six World War II servicemen raising an American flag over battle-scarred Iwo Jima, died Sunday. He was 94.
Rosenthal died of natural causes at an assisted living facility in the San Francisco suburb of Novato, said his daughter, Anne Rosenthal.
"He was a good and honest man, he had real integrity," Anne Rosenthal said.
His photo, taken for The Associated Press on Feb. 23, 1945, became the model for the Iwo Jima Memorial near Arlington National Cemetery in Virginia. The memorial, dedicated in 1954 and known officially as the Marine Corps War Memorial, commemorates the Marines who died taking the Pacific island in World War II.
Update: The insipid nature of the anti-war left rears its misshapen head once more, as the malecontents at
Sadly No! and their friends at Salon.com's
Daou Report see my mention of Joe Rosenthal's passing as a chance to attack both myself and for some odd reason, Rosenthal. To using the passing of an iconic American photographer to attack a relatively obscure blogger betrays a pettiness I personally find repulsive and a bit unsettling, but sadly, par for the course. My response to
Sadly No! in the comments of that site are as follows:
So the great “Sadly No!” catch of hypocrisy is what, exactly?
Some have postulated over the years that Joe Rosenthal somehow staged the second flag raising on Iwo Jima, yet not one human soul have ever been able to provide the first shred of proof that the allegations they raised were true, as even your own cited sources concur.
This is in stark contrast to copious evidence that some (I never said nor implied all, as you scurrilously and inaccurately charge) media photographers in Lebanon staged photos, and individual photos by several others were left suspect. No less an authority on photojournalism than David Perlmutter, a man who quite literally “wrote the book” on photojournalism, has come out strongly condemning the actions of these photographers and the media organizations that they represent in Editor & Publisher.
I've only played a small role in exposing some of the photojournalist fraud coming from Lebanon, but I am proud of the work I've done, as is Perlmutter, and at least one major combat photojournalist (a Pulitzer nominee, I may add) who has stated to me privately in e-mail that he is impressed with my ability to catch some of the things I've noticed in staged and biased photojournalism coming from Lebanon.
That you would try to make a comparison between the unproven and mostly discredited charges against Rosenthal that even your own sources cannot support, and the very real and proven charges that have been levied against some Lebanese war photographers, shows a sloppiness in thinking here that quite frankly, I've come to expect.
Not surprisingly, none of the commentors there has a substantive rebuttal.
Update 2:
Via email, from David D. Perlmutter, by permission:
The overwhelming evidence, including the testimony of everyone present at the flag-raisings--both of them--was that the photograph that has become the famous icon was NOT staged. In brief, what happened was that Rosenthal took a series of still pictures of both flag-raisings. At the same time, a movie cameraman recorded the full event. The second flag-raising occurred because the first flag was too small to be seen by Marines and other military personnel throughout the island and at sea. Joe Rosenthal did not ask anyone to raise a flag, did not pose anyone raising a flag, and the second flag would have been raised in same way even if there had been no photographers present. In other words, it was 100 percent NOT a staged photo. The complication occurred because at that time photographers rarely developed their own film in the field. Rosenthal put the role in a can and sent it off for developing. Subsequently, the picture of the second flag-raising, the shot that we now recognize as the great icon, became a sensation. Rosenthal, caught up in the battle, knew nothing about his own success. Weeks later, when told that one of his photographs had become celebrated, he assumed that the questioner referred to another photograph in which the military personnel posed around the flag and talked about it as one he helped set up. Unfortunately, even though the error was corrected very quickly, it has become a data virus in the history of photojournalism. I will add that it is also a very hurtful error, both to the men who raised the flag--some of whom were killed in the battle in the days to follow--and to a sensitive and decent photojournalist. As an added note, as any working Photog can tell you, the photo violates some basic schoolbook rules of photojournalism, so, for example, he would have gotten more faces in “staged” image.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
06:10 AM
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Posted by: Redhand at August 21, 2006 07:26 AM (7G9b2)
2
How, exactly, did you get that Redhand? Too much friction?
The war in the Pacific was not staged. Millions of lives lost in WWII to protect your sorry @$$ were not staged.
Posted by: Retired Spy at August 21, 2006 08:50 AM (Xw2ki)
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Spy - Redhand was referring to the contemporary allegations that Rosenthal had posed the picture. He didn't. There is separate film footage showing that the event wasn't posed.
Posted by: SouthernRoots at August 21, 2006 09:17 AM (jHBWL)
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I don't know how many times I've seen that photo fo some of our finest, and it still gets to me every time...I must be getting old.
Posted by: BobG at August 21, 2006 10:11 AM (qbnTd)
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Need more coffee; I seem to be breaking out in typos...
Posted by: BobG at August 21, 2006 10:11 AM (qbnTd)
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Reading "Flags of Our Fathers" by James Bradley should clear up any confusion over Rosenthal's photograph. It also tells a sad, but good story.
Posted by: SouthernRoots at August 21, 2006 02:51 PM (jHBWL)
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and, as this usually comes up in these discussions, the 'Moment of Death' picture taken by Capa during the Spanish Civil War was not staged either.
There was some 70's era discussion that the photo had to be staged based on a bunch of assumptions that didn't pan out. National Geographic (I think) ran a five page series in that documented case that the photo was legit.
The guys at SadlyNo!: Lively intellects unburdened by facts, experience, or reality.
Posted by: BumperStickerist at August 21, 2006 04:02 PM (PcDvW)
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To be fair, the SadlyNo crowd say that their point was not that the Iwo Jima photo was staged, but that this was an example of a spurious allegation that, once made, has a tendency to stick around - even years later.
Perhaps that is true, but the rumours about Rosenthal were based on a misunderstanding and no other evidence. The speculation about staged photos in Lebanon is based on significant evidence that, while open to interpretation, is perfectly open to inquiry. I, for one, am more than convinced of widespread manipulation.
To my mind the SadlyNo post is unreasonably belittling the evidence concerning the modern scandal, but I think it is unfair to accuse them of intentionally maligning Rosenthal.
Posted by: Trapdoc at August 21, 2006 06:15 PM (m5+1x)
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