Confederate Yankee
August 14, 2007
Liar's Parade
Why do the Scott Thomas Beauchamp stories published in The New Republic matter?
Beauchamp's stories—"War Bonds," "Dead of Night", and "Shock Troops"—contained material either suspect, exaggerated, or in several proven instances, completely fabricated.
It is suspect that the soldiers in "
War Bonds" would stop their vehicles in a "dark brown river of sewage" to change a tire; both Humvees and Strykers feature run-flat tires and automatic tire inflation systems that allow the vehicles to continue on for miles after experiencing a puncture.
Beauchamp's libel of the Iraqi Police as murderers in "
Dark of Night" is based upon not one, but two completely false claims. The first is that Glock pistols can be identified by a unique "square-backed" 9mm pistol cartridge. This is utterly preposterous. There are
no "square-backed" pistol cartridges chambered by commercial weapons manufacturers. The 9mm NATO (AKA, 9mm Luger, 9mm Parabellum) cartridge chambered and fired by Glock pistols is common in military, police and civilian handguns, carbines, and submachine guns worldwide, they do not use unique identifying ammunition.
The second claim is that
only the Iraqi police carry Glock pistols. A
simple Google search easily disproves that claim. Glocks are common among all military, police, militia, insurgent, and civilian populations. In "Dark of Night," Beauchamp based his libel upon two easily demonstrated falsehoods.
In Beauchamp's final article, "Shock Troops," he provides us with three distinct tall tales that a U.S. military investigation has concluded were categorically false.
It was this third account, "Shock Troops," that matters most to active duty soldiers, veterans, and their families. In three separate accounts, Beauchamp tells stories of large groups of soldiers that allowed, encouraged, or participated in barbaric behavior, and in so doing, Beauchamp assaulted the honor and integrity of not just a rogue soldier or even a small unit, but his entire company and every soldier in every other company Forward Operating Base Falcon.
This mass libel offends or should offend everyone who supports our soldiers, even those who are against the war. Several weeks ago when Beauchamp was still nominally shielded by his pseudonym,
I suggested that a member of Iraq Veterans Against the War who was based at FOB Falcon from Nov. 2005 to Nov. 2006 named
Richard Peters might be in a position to tell us if he has heard or of witnessed these or similar stories while at the base.
After reading Beauchamp's "Shock Troops," and hearing of the various debunkings of Beauchamp's claims, IVAW member Peters responded via email:
Ok, yes it does seem to be "case closed" on this Scott Thomas fellow. People like him really get under my skin. The trouble with the antiwar movement is one of image, when losers like him spread elaborate lies it only weakens that image and the message is lost.
Whether you support the continuation of the conflict in Iraq, or if you favor a withdrawal as do Mr. Peters and the IVAW and other critics of the war, is frankly irrelevant to the discussion. Beauchamp's stories matter because they were fabrications created in the hopes of furthering the career of an arrogant, untalented writer, at the expense of the reputations of his fellow soldiers.
As a result of a military investigation into the allegations made in "Shock Troops,"
all of Beauchamp's claims were determined to be false, and Beauchamp himself faces administrative punishment for his serial fiction.
But Beauchamp's attempted collective character assassination is only part of the story, and at this point, isn't even the most offensive part of the tale.
Since this series of stories was first brought to the attention of milbloggers by
Michael Goldfarb of
The Weekly Standard, the editors of
The New Republic have continued to defend Beauchamp's stories, and have gone to disconcerting lengths to do so.
Perhaps most disturbing is that on July 26,
TNR editors flatly lied to its readers, when they stated:
Although the article was rigorously edited and fact-checked before it was published, we have decided to go back and, to the extent possible, re-report every detail. This process takes considerable time, as the primary subjects are on another continent, with intermittent access to phones and email. Thus far we've found nothing to disprove the facts in the article; we will release the full results of our search when it is completed.
Let me make this very clear:
none of Beauchamp's three stories bears any evidence of fact-checking or rigorous editing.
The editors did not ask why vehicles with automatic tire inflation systems and run-flat tires designed to run for miles even after being punctured had to stop in waist-deep rivers of raw sewage in "War Bonds."
The editors did not catch the blatant "square-backed" cartridge claim, nor did they show enough diligence to even run a rudimentary Google search to check Beauchamp's claim that would have sent up immediate red flags when their correspondent alleged murder based upon a flagrant untruth that "the only people who use Glocks are the Iraqi police" in "Dead of Night."
In "Shock Troops," an act of depravity—verbally assaulting a female contractor for severe facial burns—at a combat base that the author blamed on the psychological trauma of combat was quickly exposed as not having occurred at the base in question at all. This bit of undone fact-checking exposed,
TNR's editors shifted the story to Camp Arifjan, Kuwait, never admitting the fact that that the shift in time and place means that the story was utterly false: one cannot be traumatized, hardened, or emotionally deadened by the horrors of combat in the Iraq War before having actually gone there.
TNR senior editor Jason Zengerle
admitted that he received information from the U.S. Army PAO in Kuwait that "a couple of soldiers did say that [they] heard rumors about the incident, but nothing based on fact. More like an urban legand [sic]."
The editors of
TNR has decided not to share this or similar conflicting information with their readers.
Nor have they shared the fact that
named contractors at Camp Arifjan, named U.S. Army officers, and literally dozens of soldiers have disputed ever seeing a contractor at Camp Arifjan or anywhere else who has matched this description.
The New Republic's anonymous soldiers and fact-checking apparatus have not produced the name of a contractor, the specific date or even a likely date range for the incident, and fall back on insisting that that anonymous soldiers that they claim corroborate the burned contractor assault, and that we must take their word for it, despite all the documented claims from named military and civilian sources to the contrary.
Another claim made by Beauchamp and "fact checked" by
TNR's legion of diligent staffers was the discovery of children's bodies under layers of garbage, and the subsequent wearing of part of a child's rotting skull by one soldier for an extended period of time.
The editors of
The New Republic would deceive their readers, and pretend that the acknowledgement that a children's cemetery was uncovered and relocated during the creation of a combat outpost proved Beauchamp's claim that a soldier wore rotting human body parts during the day and into the night to the amusement of fellow soldiers, and without a single dissenting voice or reprimand from an NCO. It does nothing of the sort, and merely shows that Beauchamp likely took a rather mundane event—the discovery and relocation of a cemetery—and wove fiction around it to create an atrocity tacitly supported and even laughed at by his fellow soldiers.
Beauchamp's third claim, of a murderous rogue Bradley IFV driver, has been refuted by the U.S. military, Bradley drivers, commanders, crewmen, and soldiers, the crewmen of similar tracked vehicles such as the M113, virtually without contradiction, with the one notable exception coming, once again, from anonymous TNR sources.
One of their anonymous sources was actually discovered and re-questioned openly about the Bradley's capability to be used as described in "Shock Troops."
Despite TNR's claim that he supported the Bradley's ability to operate as described, Doug Coffey, Bradley manufacturer BAE Systems spokesman, actually
tore TNR's claims apart when presented with
all of Beauchamp's claims, in context.
It makes one wonder just how much "in the dark"
The New Republic kept their other experts in order to create the illusion of an investigation that supported their initial claims.
The New Republic posted the results of an "investigation" that hides the names, positions, companies, and qualifications of their experts, and when one of their experts was tracked down,
he told a quite different story. It becomes readily apparent that
TNR, never "rigorously edited and fact-checked" Beauchamp's articles before publication. They still haven't.
Nor have they responded to valid criticisms...
...even though we know they have following such criticisms closely, and have been, daily.
What Franklin Foer and other editors of
The New Republic have done is establish a pattern of deception, obfuscation, and blame-shifting. They continue to attempt to deceive their journalistic peers, their readers, and as their critics.
TNR even purposefully hid the fact that one of their staff members is married to Beauchamp, and fired the temporary employee that disclosed this fact.
The New Republic seems convinced that despite the ever-growing collection of evidence that shows a clear breach of journalistic ethics, that if they simply find a way to "fool all of the people, all of the time," that they just might be able to save their credibility and their readership. Editor-in-Chief Marty Peretz does not seem willing to comment or act upon Franklin Foer's "rather" blatantly dishonest whitewash of an investigation, and Foer's obviously deceptive comments that the stories were fact-checked before publication.
As of yet,
CanWest MediaWorks, the company that bought full interest in
The New Republic in early 2007, has refused to act to salvage the credibility of their newest magazine.
One must wonder if they will wait to act until the magazine's already tarnished reputation is irreversibly damaged, or if that time is already passed.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
12:23 AM
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1
They supported the Iraq invasion, so yeah, their credibility is pretty much shot.
Posted by: Righteous Bubba at August 14, 2007 12:31 PM (bDKyJ)
2
"...despite the ever-growing collection of evidence that shows a clear breach of journalistic ethics..."
I strenuously object to that characterization of TNR's Beauchamp articles. The 60 Minutes forgeries, the Jason Blair episode, Janet Cooke's "Jimmy's World", NBC Dateline's faking fires from GM truck crashes, Walter Duranty's Pulitzer Prize winning fabrications about the USSR in the 1930's, etc. clearly demonstrate that exaggeration, half-truths and outright fabrication are solidly in the mainstream of journalist practice and ethics.
The only thing unusual about this set of articles in TNR is that they got caught this time.
Posted by: Tom the Barbarian at August 14, 2007 12:35 PM (bLLYE)
3
mmm. smell that Obsession. it's so manly.
Posted by: cleek at August 14, 2007 12:50 PM (+dx2l)
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Excellent work - thank you.
Posted by: CK MacLeod at August 14, 2007 12:57 PM (dvksz)
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Obsession, cleek? Yeah on this subject, pretty much.
It rather irritates me that a self-professed liberal joins the Army with the sole purpose of building his anti-war "street cred" as a writer, practices his atrocity fiction while still in Germany, and libels and slanders his entire unit with fictional accounts after he is in-theater.
Then to top it off, instead of the magazine doing the honorable thing and admitting they got snookered because they wanted to believe that the spouse of an employee wouldn't lie to them (an error in judgment that I think just about any of us would have forgiven them for), TNR's editors get "truthy." Instead of coming clean and admitting they got burned by a major league jerk, they concerned themselves with creating a plausible cover-up for their own editorial short-comings that turned out to be not very plausible at all.
Worse, the "but we support the troops" crowd uses this episode as an excuse to attack the military. So many will believe the atrocity claims concocted by STB unquestioningly, un-sourced, and unsupported, but when named U.S. Army officers, civilian contractors, military experts and even anti-war soldiers debunk the claims and/or declare Beauchamp a fabricating loser, you instead immediately align yourself with those who have every incentive to support TNR's continuing lie to maintain their jobs.
Why are you, cleek, and your brethren on the left so obsessed with denying TNR's and Beauchamp's culpability? If this issue really isn't worth commenting on, why do liberal blogs like Sadly No keep attacking the magazine's critics? If the articles savaging TNR are not accurate, why aren’t the find minds at top liberal blogs writing eloquent, fact-based defenses of TNR and its editorial staff?
Those, I think, are far more interesting questions.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at August 14, 2007 01:28 PM (WwtVa)
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Come to think of it, there was one thing you left out, CY: Not only have the TNR editors obfuscated and lied, they've also seen fit to lash out at critics, in particular THE WEEKLY STANDARD and unnamed "conservative blogs," accusing them and others of being "reckless" and of having engaged in "smears." Foer even had the effrontery to demand apologies last week on the basis of one of the "editors"'s typically deceptive and empty "statements." This behavior is of a piece with the sickening character assassination aimed by TNR's defenders at individuals like Matt Sanchez.
What drives and continues to drive this discussion as much as anything else is the relentless and resolute refusal of TNR and its allies to engage their critics on a mature and thoughtful level, and instead to lie, mis-characterize, and, when all else including the incessant repetition of long-since debunked claims fails, to self-righteously demand that we shift attention to any other subject.
When TNR's editors, as they promised in their last major statement on this subject, accept responsibility on the basis of an honest accounting, this discussion may finally reach closure. In the meantime, their magazine will remain synonymous with bias, incompetence, unethical journalism, and intellectual dishonesty.
Posted by: CK MacLeod at August 14, 2007 02:05 PM (dvksz)
7
Why are you, cleek, and your brethren on the left so obsessed with denying TNR's and Beauchamp's culpability?
feel free to link to as many instances of my "denying TNR's and Beauchamp's culpability" as you can find.
If this issue really isn't worth commenting on, why do liberal blogs like Sadly No keep attacking the magazine's critics?
because it's funny to watch you guys run around like little Wikipedia Browns, tirelessly sleuthing out the arcana in a case that is utterly meaningless. Beauchamp's story changes nothing about this war, not one single thing. nothing hinges on it, nothing is affected by it. but you guys are obsessed with this, determined as you seem to be, to be the guy who brings down the next Dan Rather. except now all you've got is a little wanna-be freelance writer for a political magazine. yay! so, you're inflating this into some grand symbol of all that is Left, as usual.
and, sadly for your crusade, nobody besides the residents of your echo chamber cares about this, because it is, in fact, a non-story. if Beauchamp's lying, then the only story is that he's lying; it changes nothing because, contrary to your grand extrapolations to the entirety of The Left, nobody outside TNR is basing anything on his story being true. besides hilarious, it's predictable; i mean, be honest, when was the last time you passed on an opportunity to try to make an issue into a denunciation of The Left ?
if he's not lying, his story is still nothing. you can read that kind of thing anywhere: war is hell, soldiers aren't polite? wow. pumped-up 24 year old guys in general are crude? wow. people in stressful situations sometimes make jokes around their peers that would be jaw-droppingly inappropriate anywhere else? wow. and the so-called "atrocities" he describes are simply petty, when compared to the things we actually know about (Abu-G, rape, murder, theft, loss of $6,000,000,000, 3000+ American lives, tens of thousands of Iraqi lives, millions displaced, etc.). his little tales of minor misbehavior don't even register.
it's the perfect right-wing blog swarm: full of sound and fury, signifying nothing.
why aren’t the find minds at top liberal blogs writing eloquent, fact-based defenses of TNR and its editorial staff?
why aren't liberal blogs defending the war-supporting TNR ? yeah, good question. you might as well ask why they failed to support Lieberman.
Posted by: cleek at August 14, 2007 02:17 PM (+dx2l)
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Jeeze,
For someone who doesn't care about this "non" story, you seem to spend an inordinate amount of time pounding the keys; and on the blogs, cleek=Geek.
Posted by: Jack C at August 14, 2007 02:26 PM (Z10aw)
9
For someone who doesn't care about this "non" story, you seem to spend an inordinate amount of time pounding the keys; and on the blogs,
i don't care about the story. i'm right there with the entire rest of the blogosphere laughing at CY and Ace as they desperately try to make something of this.
but CY asked a question, so he got an answer.
cleek=Geek
and proud of it, too.
Posted by: cleek at August 14, 2007 02:29 PM (+dx2l)
10
Cleek,
Thanks for the response..... But you are a liar.
You do care about this story. It is evidenced(sp?)
by your mere presence & posting. If it's such a non-story, why do you have so much emotional investment in it that you feel compelled to go on at length (posting) about it?
Posted by: Jack C at August 14, 2007 02:35 PM (Z10aw)
11
why do you have so much emotional investment in it that you feel compelled to go on at length (posting) about it?
emotional investment? i guess you could say i'm invested in this for the laffs. TNR or Beauchamp? who cares. f' em both. but watching wingnuts self-reference themselves into a frenzy? that's pure comedy gold.
Posted by: cleek at August 14, 2007 02:43 PM (+dx2l)
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So, cleek, were you equally amused by the left's Jeff Gannon wankfest a couple of years ago?
Posted by: Rob Crawford at August 14, 2007 02:50 PM (XXG7B)
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Sir,
Your comments are NOT indictitive of laughter or bemusement on your part. I say again .... You are either a liar, or a troll, but more than likely both. CY and others have taken this up as a matter of honor, honor for the truth, and honor for the 99.5% of our service members who are antithetical to the STB's out there. I find no humor there sir; and if you do...you should be ashamed.
Posted by: Jack C at August 14, 2007 02:53 PM (Z10aw)
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Jack, we've been through this with the cleeks of the world many times. For some reason (perhaps mental illness, or is it just flat out hypocrisy and dishonesty?), they feel compelled to attack other people for being interested in this story.
When I visit, say, movie poster collectors' message boards, they're not besieged by trolls attacking the assembled collectors for wasting time discussing movie posters. In the political realm, by contrast, they are hundreds of would-be discussion commissars who are under the impression that it's up to them to dictate what other people find to be interesting and meaningful. For their own part, they show themselves from square one to be incapable of and uninterested in polite discussion.
When dealing with such people, what could possibly be the point of re-stating all of the reasons, from concern for the reputation to the army to concern for journalistic standards and ethics to sheer intellectual curiosity? They don't want to investigate these matters in depth. If they did, they would by now already have seen this same issue discussed at length in several other places. They seem to take pleasure in the notion that someone cares about their uninformed and narrow-minded censure - just another trivial megalomania that crops up on internet message boards.
Posted by: CK MacLeod at August 14, 2007 02:58 PM (dvksz)
15
because it's funny to watch you guys run around like little Wikipedia Browns, tirelessly sleuthing out the arcana in a case that is utterly meaningless.
Oh, I'm sure you find it to be meaningless, cleek (though not meaningless enough to, you know, quit talking about it), but others obviously disagree.
Hundreds of angry soldiers have commented in various posts on this site, in emails, and on military blogs and message boards around the Internet. They obviously don't agree. They don't seem to find being libeled as those engaging in or allowing atrocities as "meaningless." They are, in the case of men posted at FOB Falcon, often quite personally offended.
Beauchamp's story changes nothing about this war, not one single thing. nothing hinges on it, nothing is affected by it.
Yep. What’s another empty slur against these baby-killers? Sure al Jazeera loves stuff like this when published in western media because it makes excellent propaganda to be used in terrorist recruiting, but no one is affected. Right?
And I’d also point out that quite a few people beyond this little "echo chamber" care about this story. USA Today, the NY Times, Newsweek and the Washington Post have all commented on this story, and I know for a fact that their are journalists who are delving ever deeper into this story.
Beauchamp's goose is pretty much cooked, butTNR's issues are only starting to get interesting. That a magazine continues to support false stories, attacks their critics instead do addressing their arguments, and composes a whitewash of an investigation is quite relevant and compelling.
If TNR can get away with running false stories, lying about their fact-checking and their investigation, and suffer no consequences, then there is little to keep any other news organization from even more blatantly fabricating stories. That might not matter to you now, but when they are able to get away with fraud on an issue that you care about, I suspect you’ll change your tune rather quickly.
And I’d once again note, since liberals seem to be ducking this fact, that TNR was a war supporter when Peter Beinart was editor, but that was well over a year ago. When Foer took over the job, his first editorial claimed that he was going to make TNR "more liberal."
As he has run anti-soldier fantasy as fact, and then attempted to justify it by deception, I'd say he's succeeded.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at August 14, 2007 03:00 PM (WwtVa)
16
If this issue really isn't worth commenting on, why do liberal blogs like Sadly No keep attacking the magazine's critics?
Honestly? Stories like that of the Beauchamp affair speak to larger issues in the media and in politics. It isn't Beauchamp we're interested in, or Beauchamp's critics, but the recurring narratives that you find throughout postwar conservatism.
For instance, the way the right-blogosphere resembles the Goldwater movement in its purity and idealism, and how that plays easily into more problematic traits. I mean pace Hofstadter, specifically, although each of us has a different reading list.
That's really the underlying hook. It doesn't come out in every post, but every now and then one of us will do a little thesis statement.
Posted by: Sadly, No! Customer Services at August 14, 2007 03:06 PM (mQCDC)
17
So, cleek, were you equally amused by the left's Jeff Gannon wankfest a couple of years ago?
no, i was more amused by the fact that a gay hooker, who inappropriately used the Marine Corps as part of his on-line marketing, was allowed access to the White House press briefing. you'd think those seats would be a little hard to come by, and that it would take more than 8" uncut to get one. right? but, i suppose being a full-throated Bush supporter in this war against evil Leftism has its perks. so, good for him, i guess. a man's gotta make a living.
Your comments are NOT indictitive of laughter or bemusement on your part
of course they are. and i'm sorry if you're not picking up on that. but while i was writing it, i decided that if i slathered on any more mocking sarcasm people wouldn't be able to understand what i was trying to say... oh wait.
You are either a liar, or a troll, but more than likely both
calling someone a liar can be pretty serious business, so i'm a little wary of throwing that one around, m'self. sometimes, when i think someone is lying, i take a few deep breaths and try to see if maybe i'm just misunderstanding what they're actually saying. it saves embarrassment.
Posted by: cleek at August 14, 2007 03:15 PM (+dx2l)
18
CY,
Sorry, I don't normally resort to ad hom attackson blogs; but occasionally....
Geek... no apology to you.
Posted by: Jack C at August 14, 2007 03:25 PM (Z10aw)
19
Hi everyone. I'm a newcomer to this story, so bear with me.
I honestly don't see how anything set forth above actually debunks or proves false anything in the TNR stories. All of what you call evidence seems like speculation based on cursory google searches and the like.
I feel like judgment ought to be reserved until the military makes a public report of the situation. Until then, it just seems like there are too many unknowns to make the kinds of definitive claims you are making here.
I admit that TNR's track record is not great. But they are under new management, so I don't think the current people should be tarnished with the errors of TNR's past.
Posted by: MRG at August 14, 2007 03:30 PM (qfNFY)
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Don't worry, Jack. I deleted your comment.
I'd advise all sides to refrain from personal attacks.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at August 14, 2007 03:31 PM (WwtVa)
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"of course they are. and i'm sorry if you're not picking up on that. but while i was writing it, i decided that if i slathered on any more mocking sarcasm people wouldn't be able to understand what i was trying to say... oh wait."
Well, it would help us if you added a "LOL" or a " :-) / ;-0 ") to your comments. Then we would know you're using sarcasm in your posts here. LOL!
Posted by: Innocent Bystander at August 14, 2007 03:37 PM (+JNxq)
22
Hey, what happened to my comment? Did I break protocol here? There was no ad hom or profanity or BDS in what I said. OK, the Jamil Hussein/Scott Beauchamp link was a little over the top....but I'm dead serious about Beauchamp's connection to the Iranian Savak. Could be a Pullitizer Prize in fleshing that story out, CY!
Posted by: Innocent Bystander at August 14, 2007 03:43 PM (+JNxq)
23
I would respectfully remind Cleek that sarcasm is, in fact, lying, by use of context and connotation.
"Your comments are NOT indictitive of laughter or bemusement on your part
of course they are. and i'm sorry if you're not picking up on that. but while i was writing it, i decided that if i slathered on any more mocking sarcasm people wouldn't be able to understand what i was trying to say... oh wait.
You are either a liar, or a troll, but more than likely both
calling someone a liar can be pretty serious business, so i'm a little wary of throwing that one around, m'self. sometimes, when i think someone is lying, i take a few deep breaths and try to see if maybe i'm just misunderstanding what they're actually saying. it saves embarrassment.
Sir, I read your statements and perfectly understood the intended "sarcasm". It does not alter my statements.
You continue,....... so you have some emotional investment in this thread, whether you care to admit it or not.
Posted by: Jack C at August 14, 2007 03:47 PM (Z10aw)
24
Oh, I'm sure you find it to be meaningless, cleek (though not meaningless enough to, you know, quit talking about it),
pshaw. i can talk about meaningless things all day!
Hundreds of angry soldiers have commented in various posts on this site, in emails, and on military blogs and message boards around the Internet. They obviously don't agree.
ok, fair enough.
but i still think you're trying to inflate this issue for partisan gain. at least, that's what it looks like to me.
Yep. What’s another empty slur against these baby-killers? Sure al Jazeera loves stuff like this when published in western media because it makes excellent propaganda to be used in terrorist recruiting, but no one is affected. Right?
again, you're completely mixing scales (ex. Beauchamp v Abu-G). and, no Beauchamp doesn't help, but the fire's already raging; throwing Beauchamp's little magazine articles on it isn't going to make things any hotter than they already are. do you think there are many fence-sitters out there, this far into this war?
that's my point - it's not the kind of story that's going to change anyone's mind, on any side of it (neither pro or against at home, nor on any side in the conflict itself), about the war.
And I’d also point out that quite a few people beyond this little "echo chamber" care about this story. USA Today, the NY Times, Newsweek and the Washington Post have all commented on this story...
most the MSM coverage i've seen/heard has been pretty thin, and mostly focused on the blogs' reaction to it, not to the story itself or how it proves that The Left hates America - the angle you (and Ace and the rest) seem to be trying to push. get the military to investigate if Beauchamp was lying? fine. but you're out on a limb with that stuff. it's making you look silly.
ah, what am i saying! please, keep it up!
If TNR can get away with running false stories...then there is little to keep any other news organization from even more blatantly fabricating stories. That might not matter to you now, but when they are able to get away with fraud on an issue that you care about, I suspect you’ll change your tune rather quickly.
oh come now. maybe you don't read many leftie blogs, but there's no shortage of them railing against shoddy reporting. don't even begin to presume you guys have some kind of monopoly on media criticism, or valid points to make about what they deliver.
And I’d once again note, since liberals seem to be ducking this fact, that TNR was a war supporter when Peter Beinart was editor, but that was well over a year ago...
maybe it's just hard to erase the taint of being a cheerleader for such a fiasco. and then there's Peretz...
Posted by: cleek at August 14, 2007 03:54 PM (+dx2l)
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Jack C-
Can you point out where Cleek is lying about his opinion? By your standards, he may well be a troll, but I don't see any factual statement he/she made that would warrant such a hateful label. Now, if Cleek had used trumped up and fabricated facts to invade and devastate a country, maybe he'd deserved the liar label...but let's try to have some civil discourse here on a subject that appears to be relatively meaningless when compared to the big picture, OK?
Posted by: Innocent Bystander at August 14, 2007 04:00 PM (+JNxq)
26
I would respectfully remind Cleek that sarcasm is, in fact, lying, by use of context and connotation.
for the edification of all, here's the definition of "sarcasm":
sar·casm (sär'kăz'əm) pronunciation
n.
1. A cutting, often ironic remark intended to wound.
2. A form of wit that is marked by the use of sarcastic language and is intended to make its victim the butt of contempt or ridicule.
3. The use of sarcasm. See synonyms at wit1.
nope. nothing about "lying". maybe you're using a different dictionary ? (see, that was sarcasm, too. kindly note that it doesn't contain a lie of any kind. (more sarcasm. this is fun! (that last one wasn't sarcasm - it really is fun!)))
Posted by: cleek at August 14, 2007 04:01 PM (+dx2l)
27
Like many other works of fiction written by uncreative hacks, ex-PFC Beauchamps stories rely on stock characters and stereotypes. His portrayal of himself and his friends is as offensive to me as I suppose African Americans would be offended by certain stereotypes that they are often portrayed as.
Posted by: BohicaTwentyTwo at August 14, 2007 04:02 PM (oC8nQ)
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Hm. I can't hang out here for long, but another thing apropos Beauchamp and TNR:
It's a point of context that we've made fun of TNR repeatedly over the years. Our loyalty to them as an institution is approximately zero, and unless I've missed something, none of us has expressed much of an affinity with Beauchamp.
I think the general feeling, both with us and generally on the left, is that the Beauchamp stories are quite likely embellished here and there, but that any importance such a thing would otherwise have is shaded out by this rage that's erupted at TNR, from the Weekly Standard and via the right-blogs.
Because TNR is universally regarded as a neocon magazine, sale or no sale, and they still have a strong pro-war editorial policy. The ideological lineup here doesn't make much sense -- especially since The Nation was simultaneously publishing a whole special issue on troops' negative experiences in the war.
There's a certain aspect of they-eat-their-own that's particularly striking, and unexplainable.
Posted by: Sadly, No! Customer Services at August 14, 2007 04:04 PM (mQCDC)
29
"TNR is universally regarded as a neocon magazine"
Evidently not universally, unless you are referring to the particular, insular universe you live in.
Posted by: notropis at August 14, 2007 04:12 PM (DLx0Z)
30
Because TNR is universally regarded as a neocon magazine, sale or no sale, and they still have a strong pro-war editorial policy.
Um, yeah. Sure they do. Not.
Posted by: Pablo at August 14, 2007 04:15 PM (yTndK)
31
cleek, your life must be poor indeed, if provoking a long chain of comment-response on this "meaningless" thread and issue is something you have so very much time for.
We're the ones laughing, cleek ;-)
Posted by: tjmmz01 at August 14, 2007 04:16 PM (dAzoD)
32
cleek, your life must be poor indeed,
tjmzkzzz1@!, i appreciate your concern. but rest assured, my life is fine.
We're the ones laughing, cleek
then we're all laughing: i'm laughing at you, you're laughing at me. it all works out.
Posted by: cleek at August 14, 2007 04:24 PM (+dx2l)
33
Bystander,
Cleek said he didn't care about this; and he did so at length. I indcated that anyone who went to such lengths to say that they didn't care about this "non-story" in this obscure "echo chamber",
must actually care, or have some emotional investment in the story due to the continual postings. Hence, LIAR.
For someone who doesn't care about this "non" story, you seem to spend an inordinate amount of time pounding the keys; and on the blogs,
i don't care about the story. i'm right there with the entire rest of the blogosphere laughing at CY and Ace as they desperately try to make something of this.
but CY asked a question, so he got an answer.
Posted by cleek at August 14, 2007 02:29 PM
Posted by: Jack C at August 14, 2007 04:27 PM (Z10aw)
34
ok guys. i'm done.
i've had a fine chat with you all, this afternoon. nobody's minds were changed, and nothing was accomplished - another day on the blogs. but it's time to go home and see the wife and cats.
so, :cheers:
[buy yourself a pint]
Posted by: cleek at August 14, 2007 04:27 PM (+dx2l)
35
Actually TNR is universally regarded as a far left wing fanatical kook magazine.
Posted by: Capitalist Infidel at August 14, 2007 04:27 PM (Lgw9b)
36
cleek, you were at work? What job weren't you doing? And while you obviously don't mind "talk[ing] about meaningless things all day," what's your employer's opinion? Personally, I can only talk about meaningless things all day when I'm on my own time (like now.)
Posted by: notropis at August 14, 2007 04:33 PM (DLx0Z)
37
Oh hi, Pablo. Have you come to offer trivial objections in order to position yourself as the winner of the discussion?
This guy Marty Peretz. Iran hawk, Likudnik. Editor-in-chief of TNR.
I know you'd like to challenge small specifics of what I said in order to achieve a victory in arguing on the Internet. But as I said earlier, it's not very interesting arguing with you because of the ratio of actual arguments to cheap Bwahahas.
Thank you. You're welcome.
Posted by: Sadly, No! Customer Services at August 14, 2007 04:34 PM (mQCDC)
38
for the edification of all,
"Yeah, right" can be sarcasm. It is also a lie.
Put all the spin on it that ya want. Feel free to cherry pick definitions.
How 'bout "STB is such a great writer!" or TNR has THE BEST fact checkers!"
Posted by: Jack C at August 14, 2007 04:35 PM (Z10aw)
39
Actually TNR is universally regarded as a far left wing fanatical kook magazine.
You mean like when Peretz endorsed Bush in '04?
Posted by: Sadly, No! Customer Services at August 14, 2007 04:48 PM (mQCDC)
40
How TNR is seen "universally" is purely a matter of opinion, though I can't see a magazine whose most notorious recent article prior to "Shock Troops" was Jonathan Chait's "Why I Hate George Bush" as dependably "neocon." More to the point, as alluded to by others, Foer and much of the rest of the TNR cast have openly sought to distance themselves from previous editor Beinart's specific positions and from TNR's historically more hawkish stance - a move made explicit in Foer's open alignment of the magazine with "more liberal" positions within the Democratic Party.
Regardless of where you place TNR on the ideological spectrum, however, the particular case does point to a larger syndrome of overcompensation on the part of former war-supporters. In the past, around the same time Al Gore was known as a DLC centrist who thought Bush 41 stopped too soon during the Gulf War, he was also TNR's favorite son. Gore's swing to the left preceded TNR's, but the Beauchamp stories reflect the same patterns visible elsewhere in the media where older centrists and centrist organizations have sought to ingratiate themselves with younger and more dynamic forces on the left. Some of the most unhinged and irresponsible statements on Iraq have come precisely from establishment voices that formerly supported either Bush's specific policies or pre-Bush hawkish stances: In addition to Gore, names that immediately come to mind are NEW YORK TIMES Editor Bill Keller and Andrew Sullivan, though in the political realm we could look instead to people like Harry Reid & John Edwards. In that sense, publication and support for Beauchamp is just one case history in the study of a peculiar left-center disease.
As for Peretz, to my knowledge he hasn't spoken on STB yet. He may be compensating in a different way. Being out of step with the views of TNR staffers may make him hesitant to intervene, but I still believe he is standing by Foer in the same way that Foer has stood by Beauchamp - conditionally, until certain partly behind-the-scenes processes hinted at in the last TNR editors statement have run their course.
Posted by: CK MacLeod at August 14, 2007 06:08 PM (dvksz)
41
So glad you brought up the CanWest connection because that is an interesting part of all of this. Their purchase of TNR cannot be overlooked as a contributing factor in this. CanWest itself is implicated with the Conrad Black trial, of course, and it is his holding company that went over to CanWest under the auspices of the Asper family that has its own political outlook on things. Now that holding group of Mr. Black is associated with Hollinger Investments through the cooperative agreement to buy the J-Post...and who is involved with Hollinger?
In one of those lovely twists of fate two people that you would never, in your life, think of having anything close to TNR show up: Richard Perle and Henry Kissinger! There you go, two of the biggest movers and shakers in foreign policy involved with the very company that purchased TNR. Why, it would almost make you suspicious of what happened there...
Let a thousand conspiracy theories bloom!
Mind you, my position on TNR's lack of ethics and no one holding them accountable remains the same, either way. If you can't even figure out what a war crime *is* when you report one, then you really shouldn't be getting into a high dudgeon about things going on in a war: if you can't tell the difference between such activities, then you really have no place complaining about them and when you exploit a war crime for your circulation you should be expecting a prosecution. Apparently we are too refined to ever enforce laws these days... on anything.
Posted by: ajacksonian at August 14, 2007 06:12 PM (oy1lQ)
42
Jack C, your insistence on calling cleek a liar is absurd. Your expectation that each and every word he writes be taken absolutely literally is, first of of all, characteristic of a young child, and, second, unrealistic in the snark-and-sarcasm-filled world of the Internet.
Anyway: how about this one by you?
Put all the spin on it that ya want. Feel free to cherry pick definitions.
Now, anybody who has been reading the posts in this thread know that you don't actually feel that way. If you actually felt that it was okay for cleek to put whatever spin he wants on the story or his reaction to it, you wouldn't have engaged so strenuously by calling him a liar for what he said. You don't actually want him to "feel free" to cherrypick definitions. Therefore: a lie.
By your own standards, Jack C, you're a liar.
Posted by: nunaim at August 14, 2007 06:19 PM (4cnvN)
43
Oh hi, Pablo. Have you come to offer trivial objections in order to position yourself as the winner of the discussion?
No, sweetie, I came to offer a TNR editorial that shatters the illusion you're trying to foist of TNR being "universally regarded as a neocon magazine". Mainly because you're full of crap.
Was there another question, Retardo?
Posted by: Pablo at August 14, 2007 06:50 PM (yTndK)
44
TNR is a neocon magazine?
BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
Pardon me while I wipe my beverage off my laptop screen.
I just took a gander at the front page of their website.
On it were stories that included:
The Failed Architect
Exploiting 9/11 brought Karl Rove's dream of GOP domination within his grasp. Then he overreached.
by John B. Judis
The Overhyping of David Petraeus
by Andrew J. Bacevich
Should Attacking Al Qaeda In Pakistan Be Off Limits?
by Dennis Ross
That last one is Obama's big proposal... is Obama a neocon now?
Once again, SNCS, you are arguing against something for which ample evidence is readily available.
Posted by: C-C-G at August 14, 2007 07:05 PM (eUgIf)
45
It does little good to feed the trolls.
Really.
TNR chose a committed idealogue and wannabe writer who was married to a TNR staffer and published his so-called "diaries" for the express purpose of showing the damage that combat does to men and by implication show that the war in Iraq is somehow "wrong."
These facts alone should give lie to the notion that TNR is a "neocon" enterprise.
And let's be honest, the term "neocon" in this or virtually any other context (made the more obvious by the descriptive "Likudnik") is virtual proof of moonbattery and not-so-tacit anti-Semitism.
What is interesting about this whole sordid mess is the silence of Matin Peretz.
Peretz is a brilliant man and someone with a lifetime of experience in all things political.
The answer lies perhaps in his allowing the young and not-so-experienced Foer work his way through the mess he made.
For now, anyway.
It would be surprising, to say the least, for Peretz to come out in favor of the way Foer created and handled this disaster, no matter what the moonbats and trolls say.
My guess is that there will be a formal and painful comeuppance for Frank Foer and that will be that.
Just sayin'.
And don't feed the trolls.
Just sayin', again.
Posted by: MTT at August 14, 2007 07:06 PM (g/2/8)
46
This has been almost as fun and as high brow as an infestation of the minions of J.C. Christian, another gathering place of the intellectual elite on the left. Perhaps instead of boring themselves with a story they profess no interest in, the representatives of Sadly, No! could concentrate on forcing another progressive blogger to resign and join Jesus' General in that select circle of liberal achievement.
That was entertainment (and erudition)!
Posted by: daleyrocks at August 14, 2007 07:27 PM (0pZel)
47
So by cleek's logic, Stephen Glass's lies didn't mean anything because they didn't have any effect on the software industry.
Posted by: Jim Treacher at August 14, 2007 09:04 PM (0jtcT)
48
This is just a suggestion, but, please stop.
Posted by: marc page at August 14, 2007 09:10 PM (uG7zp)
49
How TNR is seen "universally" is purely a matter of opinion, though I can't see a magazine whose most notorious recent article prior to "Shock Troops" was Jonathan Chait's "Why I Hate George Bush" as dependably "neocon." More to the point, as alluded to by others, Foer and much of the rest of the TNR cast have openly sought to distance themselves from previous editor Beinart's specific positions and from TNR's historically more hawkish stance - a move made explicit in Foer's open alignment of the magazine with "more liberal" positions within the Democratic Party.
This is true, but I think the meaning of the term 'neocon' depends largely on where you stand.
TNR has held a strange position since the late '70s as the voice of a functionally imaginary constituency of right-wing liberals -- a creation of a certain very small policy elite in Washington that isn't represented by any sort of popular movement.
Sometimes it's been aligned almost perfectly with Republican interests, while other times it strays pretty widely. But the constants have been a sympathy for wonky center-left social policies (where possible), and a near-Podhoretzian neoconservatism on foreign affairs, specifically Mideastern, especially having to do with Israel.
Foer's editorship has seen a shift against Iraq and other Mideast interventionism, but it's matched by a similar shift within neoconservatism in that the big neocon question on the war is no longer how to spread the gains in Iraq throughout the wider Mideast, or how to win, but how to survive as a doctrine with Iraq as a sort of constant negative advertisement.
Posted by: Sadly, No! Customer Services at August 14, 2007 10:02 PM (mQCDC)
50
And let's be honest, the term "neocon" in this or virtually any other context (made the more obvious by the descriptive "Likudnik") is virtual proof of moonbattery and not-so-tacit anti-Semitism.
Well there's a blast from the past. I haven't heard that particular disgusting smear in a few years.
I guess the 'other contexts' include when neocons call themselves neocons. Or is it like that other n-word you always hear in rap music?
Posted by: Sadly, No! Customer Services at August 14, 2007 10:19 PM (mQCDC)
51
SNCS, I am sure you can provide quotes of prominent commentators and political figures (not minor bloggers like my humble self) calling themselves neocons within the last couple of years.
Please do so now.
Posted by: C-C-G at August 14, 2007 10:24 PM (eUgIf)
52
Shorter everybody:
LIAR!
Anti-Semite
Rewriting history
LIE-berals
Clinton/Lewinsky
Smearing the troops
Where's my XBox? Come on, where's my XBox?
Moonbat
Hmmm
Scott Thomas Beau-CHUMP
Posted by: nunaim at August 14, 2007 10:24 PM (4cnvN)
53
SNCS, I am sure you can provide quotes of prominent commentators and political figures (not minor bloggers like my humble self) calling themselves neocons within the last couple of years.
Please do so now.
You mean like leave out this person and instead cite sources such as this one?
Now you can go look for instances of the anti-Semitism smear. Hint: Comedian Julia Gorin in the WSJ editorial section.
Posted by: Sadly, No! Customer Services at August 14, 2007 10:33 PM (mQCDC)
54
SNCS, you are hilarious.
I specifically tell you not to bother including minor bloggers, and what do you go and find? A minor blogger! And, you point to an old site that hasn't been updated since March! Do you even read the links you post?
As for your book, it's so popular that it's rated as the 279,514th highest seller in books! Wow, watch out Harry Potter!
Thank you, however, for demonstrating your ignorance far better than I ever could.
Posted by: C-C-G at August 14, 2007 10:59 PM (eUgIf)
55
It's amazing how non-interested the folks over at the Sadly, No! laugh factory are in this story. They just can't help themselves.
Either that, or they are taking a break from splitting atoms, with their minds.
Posted by: daleyrocks at August 14, 2007 11:02 PM (0pZel)
56
Thank you for your impolite comment!
So perhaps you'd prefer her newer site with the Pajamas Media banner on it.
And if the AEI's Mr. Stelzer isn't selling well enough for you, perhaps you'd prefer Mark Gerson.
Now's your cue to descend into semantic quibbling attempting to claim that 'neoconservative' is totally different from 'neocon.'
Please show your work, link appropriately, etc.
Posted by: Sadly, No! Customer Services at August 14, 2007 11:09 PM (mQCDC)
57
Maybe they ran out of cheetos.
Posted by: daleyrocks at August 14, 2007 11:09 PM (0pZel)
58
It's amazing how non-interested the folks over at the Sadly, No! laugh factory are in this story. They just can't help themselves.
Well, you know, sometimes we like to come out and match skillz with the top minds on the Internet.
Posted by: Sadly, No! Customer Services at August 14, 2007 11:14 PM (mQCDC)
59
Sorry, SNCS, I don't follow your cues.
Your Gerson "link" doesn't work, by the way. You really should link appropriately, you know.
And, out of 83 blogs on the Pajamas Media network, you found one out of the two that mention "neocon." That makes, what, about 2% of the blogs on Pajamas Media? Amazing, it's a neocon groundswell!
Every time I think you can't get more absurd in your ranting, you surprise me.
Posted by: C-C-G at August 14, 2007 11:17 PM (eUgIf)
60
Welp, if I'm forgetting to close blockquote tags, now's a good time to say adieu.
As always, feel free to make blustery and self-congratulatory comments after I'm gone about how I'm really dumb and you were totally winning the argument, et alia.
Posted by: Sadly, No! Customer Services at August 14, 2007 11:22 PM (mQCDC)
61
As always, feel free to make blustery and self-congratulatory comments after I'm gone about how I'm really dumb and you were totally winning the argument, et alia.
You mean like you're going to do on DU, rather than admit that you're skulking off with your tail between your legs?
Posted by: C-C-G at August 14, 2007 11:25 PM (eUgIf)
62
"Well, you know, sometimes we like to come out and match skillz with the top minds on the Internet."
Gavin - Why aren't you there then, or singing with your gospel hair band, rather than showing your ass here. After all, on your home blog, you claim there are only mindless neocons and such here. Why waste your precious crazy ninja blogging skillz.
Posted by: daleyrocks at August 14, 2007 11:29 PM (0pZel)
63
Oh, here's the Gerson link that you couldn't find on your own, despite Gerson being a very influential figure.
Thanks for digging up nothing of your own, providing no evidence of anything, and being rude. That's why I come here -- for the ambiance.
Posted by: Sadly, No! Customer Services at August 14, 2007 11:31 PM (mQCDC)
64
Wow, that Gerson book is another one off the Amazon hit parade! It's 934,639th in sales! That would even knock the Bible off the all-time best-seller list!
What next, something by Pat Robertson?
Posted by: C-C-G at August 14, 2007 11:36 PM (eUgIf)
65
I would like to thank you, SNCS, for helping to prove that neocons are not nearly the powerful force the anti-Semites on the left would like us to believe they are.
Whether you yourself are an anti-Semite or just a mindless follower, I leave to the readers to determine for themselves.
Posted by: C-C-G at August 14, 2007 11:41 PM (eUgIf)
66
Damn C-C-G, that Gerson ranking you just posted just knocked Glenn Greenwald's newest book down another notch. That guy can't catch a break, even with all his family, friends and commenters buying copies.
Posted by: daleyrocks at August 14, 2007 11:43 PM (0pZel)
67
Yeah, Daley, those neocons really can sell books, can't they?
Posted by: C-C-G at August 14, 2007 11:44 PM (eUgIf)
68
Wow, that Gerson book is another one off the Amazon hit parade! It's 934,639th in sales!
It's also blue. Only non-blue books count.
Posted by: Sadly, No! Customer Services at August 14, 2007 11:48 PM (mQCDC)
69
Yeah, Daley, those neocons really can sell books, can't they?
Irvin Kristol, author of Neoconservatism, can't sell a book. He is a big nobody.
Tan books don't count. Anybody knows that.
Posted by: Sadly, No! Customer Services at August 14, 2007 11:55 PM (mQCDC)
70
Do you even know who any of these people are?
You have no idea of your own intellectual history, do you? You just read blogs.
Posted by: Sadly, No! Customer Services at August 14, 2007 11:58 PM (mQCDC)
71
From Irwin Setzler's introduction to the all time bestseller, The Neocon Reader, :
The war in Iraq is the culmination of a neoconservative takeover of America, if much of the European and some of the American media are to be believed. Thanks to a small cabal of intellectuals 'conservative ideologues... scornful of... idealistic multilateralism' according to the Economist - America has abandoned its traditional foreign policy and become an unilateralist, imperialist hegemon, or hyperpower, given to preemptive strikes against any nation that it decides threatens its security.
...
It is the goal of this collection of essays to replace heat with light, and separate the truths underlying some of the fears of neoconservatisom and neocons from the fantasies."
Man, if I didn't know better, I'd think Setzler was Paul freaking Wolfowitz! This is some of that award winning satire, right SNCS?
Posted by: Pablo at August 15, 2007 12:01 AM (yTndK)
72
SNCS, I have never claimed to be a neocon. I am a Reaganite Conservative.
And I know all about the history of the Reagan Revolution, because I lived through it.
In short, you just made a fool of yourself again. It's getting to be a habit for you, isn't it?
Posted by: C-C-G at August 15, 2007 12:07 AM (eUgIf)
73
I can't believe you goofballs. Irwin Setzler was an AEI scholar, and this is a foundational anthology with all your favorite stuff in it. And you don't even have any idea what it is.
Oh, and right: The Beatles were a flop, man. Not a single one of their albums is on the current Billboard charts.
I swear to God, this bugs me more than anything else I've seen today. Have you read Fukuyama's 'End of History?' If not, can you possibly understand the impact of 9/11 on conservatism? Have you heard of Francis Fukuyama?
I'm frickin' staring at you with my mouth hanging open. No joke.
Posted by: Sadly, No! Customer Services at August 15, 2007 12:10 AM (mQCDC)
74
Please show your work, link appropriately, etc.
Copyright 1995 Reed Business Information, Inc.
Cutting edge Gerson, sadly out of print. I was so hoping to find the part here he refers to himself as a Neocon.
Posted by: Pablo at August 15, 2007 12:11 AM (yTndK)
75
Irwin Setzler was an AEI scholar...
And Larry Johnson was a CIA agent, but let's get back to talking about TNR swirling the drain.
Posted by: Pablo at August 15, 2007 12:14 AM (yTndK)
76
SNCS, this may shock you, but there are lots of conservative think-tanks and associations. AEI is but one of many, and hardly the largest or most powerful.
You may want to look beyond your boogey-men of AEI and check out places like The Heritage Foundation, The Foundation for the Defense of Democracies, and The Club for Growth, just to name three.
Why all the rancor against AEI, by the way?
Posted by: C-C-G at August 15, 2007 12:17 AM (eUgIf)
77
The neocon issue aside, and the "significance" issue regarding the Beauchamp affair aside, it seems clear to me that a major political journal publishing articles that are blatantly false is behavior that ought to be roundly condemned by all, regardless of ideology. Really, the only ones who would have anything to lose from such a statement would be those who want to believe that the war is a tarnished, morally compromised effort. So which is it? Is Beauchamp a liar and a weasel or are our troops barbaric thugs? Time for the Left to put its money where its collective mouth is...
Posted by: Nathan Tabor at August 15, 2007 12:17 AM (P5t6X)
78
And I know all about the history of the Reagan Revolution, because I lived through it.
So you must know about the Goldwater movement then. Maybe you'd like to explain how Norman Podhoretz emulated the Goldwater movement in Commentary's conversion to interventionist anti-Communism, founding what we now call 'neoconservatism' while exerting great influence on Reagan's foreign policy.
Except no, maybe you wouldn't, because you only 'lived through the Reagan era,' e.g., you don't actually know anything about it.
Posted by: Sadly, No! Customer Services at August 15, 2007 12:20 AM (mQCDC)
79
Oh good grief, now it's Nathan Tabor.
This is like a weird dream.
So Nathan, did you ever disclose the Hunter job? The Giuliani folks were pissed.
Posted by: Sadly, No! Customer Services at August 15, 2007 12:22 AM (mQCDC)
80
A magazine changed its editorial stance, SNCS?!?
You don't say!
Posted by: Pablo at August 15, 2007 12:22 AM (yTndK)
81
A magazine changed its editorial stance, SNCS?!?
You don't say!
Oh wonderful, you've never heard of Commentary. Norman Podhoretz? John Podhortz's dad? Is it ringing any bells?
Posted by: Sadly, No! Customer Services at August 15, 2007 12:24 AM (mQCDC)
82
Peter Beinart? Franklin Foer? Anything?
Posted by: Pablo at August 15, 2007 12:25 AM (yTndK)
83
If you knew half of what you think you know, SNCS, you'd know that the Goldwater wing and the Reagan wing of the GOP have been bitter rivals since the days of those two men.
This was most recently demonstrated when the modern version of the Goldwater wing, led by President Bush, tried to push through immigration "reform," which was loaded with things for big business owners who like hiring illegals because they work cheap. The modern Reaganites pushed back, tho, and won the battle.
Surely you remember the scathing words from the President for the opponents (of which I am a minor member... see my blog for proof) of the bill.
In short, you're trying to make a portion of the party emblematic of the whole, and you've chosen the portion that is waning, as evidenced by the abysmal sales of the books you mentioned earlier.
And that, neighbor, is why you keep losing these arguments and have to shift the argument to a different point so often. Because your fundamental premise is flawed, yet you refuse to even attempt to comprehend that.
Posted by: C-C-G at August 15, 2007 12:26 AM (eUgIf)
84
One would think that an Award Winning Satire Blogger would recognize sarcasm pretty quickly.
One would think....
Posted by: Pablo at August 15, 2007 12:27 AM (yTndK)
85
SNCS, this may shock you, but there are lots of conservative think-tanks and associations. AEI is but one of many, and hardly the largest or most powerful.
I can't believe you think you're informing me.
Why don't you give me a brief precis of the history of conservative foundations? Or here's a simpler question: Why did Heritage spin off Townhall.com? That's a one-sentence answer right there.
Posted by: Sadly, No! Customer Services at August 15, 2007 12:31 AM (mQCDC)
86
SNCS is still here? I thought it said it was leaving.
For an unimportant, boring story that is a non-issue, it's like a magnet for that dude. You would think a super important intellectual giant of a lefty blogger would have more important things to do with his time than to hang out here. His dozen or so loyal commenters are waiting with such fawning praise back on his home blog it's almost like group fellatio. He's declared victory hasn't he?
I guess I'm supposed to feel already snarked into oblivion or whatever lameass shit he was trying to do. He also wants to tell me what my favorite conservative ideas are. Right. I've felt worse after reading a New York Times editorial and they write and reason better. My teenagers are better.
What's that 1970s expression, you know, from before those guys were born?
Don't go away mad, just go away.
Posted by: daleyrocks at August 15, 2007 12:37 AM (0pZel)
87
This was most recently demonstrated when the modern version of the Goldwater wing, led by President Bush...
Well there's one I've never heard before.
So how is it that the Bush administration is constituted around an admixture of former Nixon and Reagan people? Was Nixon part of the Goldwater wing, or is there a continuity between Nixon and Reagan? Wouldn't you agree that McCain is the inheritor of the Goldwater populist tradition?
You keep saying you're winning all these arguments, but your points are wrong.
But of course you can say you're winning. I'll even let you win if you want.
Posted by: Sadly, No! Customer Services at August 15, 2007 12:40 AM (mQCDC)
88
Just call him a Neocon and let some spittle fly, SNCS. That always works.
Posted by: Pablo at August 15, 2007 12:42 AM (yTndK)
89
One would think that an Award Winning Satire Blogger would recognize sarcasm pretty quickly.
Honestly, my meter got stuck after you said Setzler was a parodist. That's the Setzler book you're talking about! It's full of all those famous essays that everyone always quotes, but that aren't on the Internet.
Woo, not selling so hot. It must be a big flop.
Posted by: Sadly, No! Customer Services at August 15, 2007 12:46 AM (mQCDC)
90
Honestly, my meter got stuck after you said Setzler was a parodist.
Thing is, I didn't say Setzler was a parodist. You see, in response to this comment:
SNCS, I am sure you can provide quotes of prominent commentators and political figures (not minor bloggers like my humble self) calling themselves neocons within the last couple of years.
...you offered the Setzler book, and I offered a quote from his introduction to the book that shows that not only doesn't he consider himself a neocon, he doesn't seem to care much for them.
No parody, just rebuttal directly from the source you linked. Get it? Heh.
Posted by: Pablo at August 15, 2007 12:56 AM (yTndK)
91
Halp us SNCS!
Tell us what to think!!1!!111!!!1!!
Posted by: daleyrocks at August 15, 2007 01:00 AM (0pZel)
92
Well, it's 'Stelzer' in any case. You need to finish the intro to see where he's going. It's a 'some say x, but here's y' construction.
Posted by: Sadly, No! Customer Services at August 15, 2007 01:01 AM (mQCDC)
93
Us stoopid rethuglitards don't unnerstand those big words you is using.
Dude, if you're going to be a conservative, it's not shameful to pick up the freaking major works in the field to see what you're actually talking about.
It's a matter of some irony that a lefty comedy-blogger is here telling you this.
I forgive you everything. It's all been surreal to me since Tabor showed up.
God, I need to go to bed. Welp, later.
Posted by: Sadly, No! Customer Services at August 15, 2007 01:07 AM (mQCDC)
94
Us stoopid rethuglitards don't unnerstand those big words you is using.
Dude, if you're going to be a conservative, it's not shameful to pick up the freaking major works in the field to see what you're actually talking about.
It's a matter of some irony that a lefty comedy-blogger is here telling you this.
I forgive you everything. It's all been surreal to me since Tabor showed up.
God, I need to go to bed. Welp, later.
Posted by: Sadly, No! Customer Services at August 15, 2007 01:09 AM (mQCDC)
95
You need to finish the intro to see where he's going.
Oh please. Tell us where he wends his way into approval of what he sees as:
...a small cabal of intellectuals 'conservative ideologues... scornful of... idealistic multilateralism' according to the Economist - America has abandoned its traditional foreign policy and become an unilateralist, imperialist hegemon, or hyperpower, given to preemptive strikes against any nation that it decides threatens its security.
Quote him, please.
Posted by: Pablo at August 15, 2007 01:31 AM (yTndK)
96
Thank you SNCS!
I knew you'd tell what to do.
I'll get right on it.
Do you know anything about birthin' babies by any chance?
Posted by: daleyrocks at August 15, 2007 01:58 AM (0pZel)
97
Hey, who's up for a little fauxtography this morning? BlackFive's got a nice round up.
Posted by: BohicaTwentyTwo at August 15, 2007 08:14 AM (oC8nQ)
98
I see SNCS is still at history revision.
Just one point, then I must dash off to work (you know what work is, righ, SNCS?)
Anyone who thinks that the Reagan White House was made up only of Reaganites is delusional, and has no real grasp of politics. Reagan let George H. W. Bush work in the White House, and he once called Reaganomics "voodoo economics."
Now, tell me that the elder Bush was a committed Reaganite conservative, and your descent into idiocy will be complete.
Or, you can come up with another non sequitur and try yet again to spin neocons into a great evil conspiracy... which in itself shows where you stand politically.
Posted by: C-C-G at August 15, 2007 09:16 AM (eUgIf)
99
Shorter SNCS: I can name books!
I demand that you read them.
The power of SNCS compels you.
The power of SNCS compels you.
The power of SNCS compels you.
Posted by: daleyrocks at August 15, 2007 09:50 AM (0pZel)
100
Hmmmm.
Just what is Beauchamp's job in Iraq anyways?
Is he a grunt? A Bradley driver? Stryker crewman? Or is he a fobbit?
Posted by: memomachine at August 15, 2007 11:24 AM (3pvQO)
Posted by: Worn-Out Catchphrase at August 15, 2007 11:28 AM (n74mI)
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August 13, 2007
More Easily Debunked Beauchamp Fiction: It Never Ends (Update: Joke?)
Had it not been hidden behind the subscriber firewall, I would have found this example of The New Republic's unwillingness to fact check Scott Beauchamp long ago.
It is already widely know that in Beauchamp's second dispatch, "Dead of Night,"
TNR editors did not take the
common-sense step of fact-checking the article submitted, allowing Beauchamp to claim he saw "square-backed" pistol cartridges when such a cartridge does not exist. They also allowed him to claim that Iraqi policemen must have committed a murder, because they did not bother to do so much as the basic Google search that would have revealed that Glock pistols are very common throughout Iraq.
Yesterday evening I finally read of all "Dark of Night," and discovered this gem of a claim at the end.
As we slowly started moving back toward the Humvee, we could hear the dogs filling in the space behind us. I turned around and saw their green eyes flashing in the deep shadow where we'd left the body. Part of me thought we should have shot the dogs or done something to keep them from eating the body, but what good would it have done? We only would have been exposing ourselves to danger longer than we needed to.
Back in the Humvee, Hernandez started talking to me without looking in my direction. "Man, I've never seen anything like that before," he said.
"What? A guy killed by a cop?" I asked.
"No, man, zombie dogs. That shit was wild," he said, laughing.
Something inside of me fought for expression and then died. He was right. What else was there to do now but laugh?
"I took his driver's license," I said.
"You did?" questioned Hernandez.
"Yeah. It said he was an organ donor."
We chuckled in the dark for a moment, and then looked out the window into the night. We didn't talk again until we were back at our base.
Was anyone else the least bit surprised by Beauchamp's assertion that he stole the dead man's license, that he could read the Arabic on it, and that the deceased in an Islamic country was an organ donor?
It didn't seem to raise suspicions among
TNR's editors, but it is obvious that nothing did with this post or his following fiction in "Shock Troops."
I contacted Bill Costlow, a former member of CPATT (Civilian Police Assistance Training Teams) now working in the D.C. Metro area, and he confirmed that Iraqi driver licenses are written in Arabic. He also confirmed that:
Muslims have some pretty strict requirements on the treatment of bodies — mostly geared towards respect for the dead and privacy for the families — autopsies are very difficult to get permission for because it's viewed as desecration and this has been an issue in a number of investigations.
From Baghdad, Hassan Elsaadaoui, a CPATT liaison with the Iraqi Interior Ministry concurs:
I think in the Iraqi or Muslim tradition they don't accept this practice of donating organs. Maybe in the future, it will be possible. There is no indication now on the back side of Iraqi driver's license. Also our medical system and doctors are not ready for this type procedure, because of the situation. They do not have the equipment and many of the very good doctors are now outside the country.
So I agree with Bill's notes that he sent to you.
Organ donation is not unheard of in Iraq, and indeed, there is a small black market where the destitute will sell a kidney for several thousand dollars, but this practice seems confined to
living donors.
There is apparently no such thing as an official Iraqi organ donor program, much less one run through the government and noted on drivers licenses, when such donations of organs of the deceased are viewed as desecrating the dead.
It took me a grand total of two emails to get confirmation that this claim, like so many others written by Beuachamp, and published by
The New Republic, was rooted firmly in fiction.
Beauchamp made up another one, and once more, Franklin Foer and the editors of
The New Republic are proven to be dishonest when they claim that Beauchamp's stories were fact checked before publication.
Update: Is Beauchamp merely making a joke above? I admittedly didn't read it that way, but it very well could be the case.
The first experience most of us had with Beauchamp was with his last article first, and his allegation that he verbally assaulted a burn victim. It doesn't seem much of a stretch from abuser of the burned to robber of the dead, so I took his comments at face value as a real claim.
I suppose that it is just an indication of just how little credibility
TNR and Beauchamp have that it isn't easy to tell his joking fake claims from his sincere fake claims.
Update: Ace seems quite unimpressed by Beauchamp's joke, and seems to think it should have been viewed as a red flag by
TNR editors.
I think the angle here is not that he was outright fabricating, so much as he was employing literary devices in his stories-- playing a role in order to establish himself as a literary character for his coming novel, a hardass, seen-it-all veteran dripping with BAMFism...
Despite the fact that, you know, while his service in Iraq is no doubt dangerous, he's hardly seen much in the way of combat or actual danger. He's seen the possibility of danger, but, alas for his book proposal, not so much the real sort.
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1
I think that was a punchline, not a statement of fact...
Posted by: Joe Marier at August 13, 2007 12:36 PM (MwlDS)
Posted by: Mikey NTH at August 13, 2007 12:41 PM (O9Cc8)
3
Me again, back with just another tidbit of info: During my first tour in '04 in Baghdad, one of my projects was rebuilding a warehouse for use as the CRSP/CIF on Camp Victory. One of my jobs was to collect a draft of LN (Local National) Workers who were doing the refurb. This entailed going to ECP 1 (entry control point one) also known as "The Hajji Gate" and getting temporary passes for all of my workers. In order to do this, they had to provide me with a picture ID, that I would then exchange for a "Red Badge" (temporary LN work badge).
Normally this would be a simple thing, but seeing that the Iraqi Governmental infrastructure had broken down, and that it had NEVER been that good to begin with, the IDs that the average Iraqi had was pathetic to say the least. No ID cards were the same, the 'civil ID' was a cheaply laminated card with a poor black and white photo that usually appeared to be either years out of date, or could have been any "Joe Hajji" as the picture quality was so bad. The concept of a drivers licence pretty much was nonexistant, never mind that ALL the IDs were in arabic, and I had a hell of a time even telling one ID from another, and who owned which one. Hell... the Iraqis themselves often had arguements over whos ID was whos. No Joke! Yet again, another bogus claim by DoucheChump and his never ending heaping pile type one each, Bull flavored.
Posted by: Big Country at August 13, 2007 01:06 PM (q7b5Y)
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In regards to the organ donor comment, I think Beauchamp is only guilty of not being clear that he was making a joke.
Posted by: Rich at August 13, 2007 01:07 PM (o0lUL)
5
The funny thing is, I could imagine that it was a joke.
BUT
That's not how it's written, is it? Not "It says he's an organ donor," I joked.
More to the point: Is the idea that he stole the guy's license also a joke?
If we accept the idea that he was joking, how far can we take that? Perhaps all of Beauchamp's columns are humor, and intended as such?
I mean, c'mon, everybody knows there ain't no such thing as square-backed rounds, right?
And I never meant for the Bradley story to be believed!
And how big an a**hole would I have to be to have actually insulted a woman who'd been burned by an IED?
Yes, this might have been a joke. Or part of it. Or none of it was.
The point is, Beauchamp never makes it clear, and TNR presented it as fact. (I suppose those layers and layers of editors and fact-checkers must've slipped up in this one case.)
Posted by: Lurking Observer at August 13, 2007 01:23 PM (/ZD7V)
6
Yep, gotta agree with the others - dumb joke, not a lie, though the story itself remains suspect.
Posted by: CK MacLeod at August 13, 2007 01:30 PM (dvksz)
7
Hmmm.
Sorry folks but these stories aren't written as dark war humor. These stories aren't posited as fiction by TNR. TNR has promoted these stories as being first hand accounts *by a soldier in Iraq*.
This isn't Dave Barry or Lileks here.
This is intended to be non-fiction and must, absolutely MUST, be treated in that manner. We might all think it's so completely idiotic that it should be fiction. But it's not presented as such either by Beauchamp or TNR.
And we must take both of them at their word that this is not supposed to be fiction.
Posted by: memomachine at August 13, 2007 01:47 PM (3pvQO)
8
Alas, poor Thomas, I knew him Jamil. A man of infinite jest.
Posted by: BohicaTwentyTwo at August 13, 2007 01:53 PM (oC8nQ)
9
Is Beauchamp merely making a joke above? I admittedly didn't read it that way, but it very well could be the case.
The first experience most of us had with Beauchamp was with his last article first, and his allegation that he verbally assaulted a burn victim. It doesn't seem much of a stretch from abuser of the burned to robber of the dead, so I took his comments at face value as a real claim.
Odd, that. With just about anyone else, I think I would have immediately take it as a joke, but with Beauchamp's statements so full of holes all the way around, it seeemed logical to question every word coming out of his mouth.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at August 13, 2007 01:54 PM (WwtVa)
10
Question. Has anybody try to contact "Hernandez" to see if he saw the mysterious "Square-backed" bullets and the doggies having lunch?
I haven't chatted with a PAO, so I wasn't sure if they'd confirm if there was even a Hernandez in STB's platoon...
Posted by: scott thomas at August 13, 2007 01:58 PM (CQcil)
11
On a more serious note, didn't you guys read my bio? I mean, I can speak 3,00 different languages and 12,000 different dialects. Man, you I hate dealing with knuckleheads who don't understand my genisss.
Posted by: scott thomas at August 13, 2007 02:00 PM (CQcil)
12
The joke part would be the comments between the soldiers - the implicit claim isn't that Iraqis have driver's licenses with organ donor info, but merely that US soldiers, knowing that in fact Iraqis don't carry DLs with donor notices, might make a joke on that very basis.
On second thought, it does in fact appear obvious that Iraqis wouldn't have an organ donor system in place, but the joke isn't very well framed, so readers unfamiliar with the environment could be excused for getting the intent wrong. It's actually almost funny. Almost.
I agree it's confusing, and, given the rest of STB's performance, it's hard to know for sure what he believes and, differently, what he expects us to believe, but this particular point isn't one of the better ones raised against his work, in my opinion.
Posted by: CK MacLeod at August 13, 2007 02:12 PM (dvksz)
13
What about, "We chuckled in the dark..." is hard to understand that it was a sarcastic comment meant as a joke?
Get a life, will ya? You're getting a little obsessed with this aren't you?
Posted by: Other Ed at August 13, 2007 02:29 PM (yfKhZ)
14
What's it to you, Ed? Your point adds nothing to the discussion. Why don't you run off to ESPN and criticize commenters there for discussing the latest NBA trade rumors?
Posted by: CK MacLeod at August 13, 2007 03:02 PM (dvksz)
15
Hmmmmm.
@ CK MacLeod
"I agree it's confusing, and, given the rest of STB's performance, it's hard to know for sure what he believes and, differently, what he expects us to believe, but this particular point isn't one of the better ones raised against his work, in my opinion."
Sure if you read that last bit in complete isolation that might come off as a joke. The old "I stole this driver's license off a corpse and it was an organ donor card" bit. Not funny, but it could be construed as a joke.
But not when read as a part of the overall article. At no point does the author attempt to show that this is at all humor. Additionally I'll point out again that TNR has not, does not and doesn't appear that it will portray any of this as battlefield humorous fiction.
Instead these articles have been portrayed **AS NON-FICTION**. So quite frankly I don't see how you could possibly slice off this tidbit and call it a joke. Sure it's idiotic, but that's par for Beauchamp's writing.
Seriously. How do you get past the fact that at no time has TNR ever represented any portion of any article written by Beauchamp, even when it might have been advantageous to do so, as *fiction*?
Even the incident with the IED woman, relocated as it were to Kuwait, was still represented as if it was non-fiction.
So if you really want to press this point then you're the one who is going to have to offer some compelling arguments.
Posted by: memomachine at August 13, 2007 03:10 PM (3pvQO)
16
I'll try again, memomachine, especially since I'm confident that you and I are overall on the same side here. (Of course, I might have to withdraw from the discussion if the Other Ed finally publishes his comprehensive list of permissible topics, and this one turns out not to be on it.)
All the references to organ donors and licenses occur as within the quoted dialogue. If one soldier was quoted as saying, "I think aliens from the planet Xenon left those bodies there," we wouldn't impute to Beauchamp the statement that Xenonians were in Iraq. Furthermore, the exchange is framed with references to laughter.
Even the burned woman legend is supposed to be darkly funny. In fact, I think it's fair to say that the emphasis in all of these stories is dark humor with a political subtext - that's what makes it such effective war porn for liberals. It's a popular ironic element in war stories going back to Herodotus at least (and I acknowledge that that's going back pretty far).
We could carry this discussion into the theory of humor and of the grotesque, but that would be to divert from the main problem, which is that, though TNR and/or Beauchamp could early on have acknowledged that these ugly stories were autobiographical fiction. They could have even gone further and apologized for their adolescent approach to serious subjects.
Instead, they repeatedly doubled down, insisting that the stories were accurate and verifiable down to the details - something that anyone with any meaningful experience of the world and with literary efforts of this type had to laugh off. They reacted like a teenager caught doing something naughty, refusing to admit it, and adding to his humiliation by sticking to his story - just reading the articles while changing his pants, NOT looking at the pictures and getting aroused.
Maybe they just didn't want to confess that they liked their war porn precisely because it defamed the US Army and everyone who supported the war. It's hard to say. I'm not sure that the cover-up really is worse than the "crime" in this case, but it has served to draw attention to and deepen it - which all along has been the incompetence, immaturity, and bad faith of TNR's editors.
Posted by: CK MacLeod at August 13, 2007 03:37 PM (dvksz)
17
Overwritten made-up crap.
Zombie dogs has quite a google track:
http://www.google.com/search?q=%22zombie%20dogs%22
Posted by: vanderleun at August 13, 2007 04:20 PM (ULUsu)
18
Had it not been hidden behind the subscriber firewall, I would have found this example of The New Republic's unwillingness to fact check Scott Beauchamp long ago.
Yes, because everyone knows that TNR uses it's subscriber firewall to hide articles from prying eyes.
Not like one can actually go out and buy a copy of TNR at your local 7-11.
Those bastids.
Posted by: Mongo the Destroyer at August 13, 2007 04:27 PM (tfP5Z)
19
There was nothing to do but laugh. INSERT STUFF HERE. We chuckled in the dark for a moment
Yeah, why would anyone think that the stuff in the middle was a joke? Sometime liberals are so dumb you wonder how they remember to breathe.
Posted by: Mike at August 13, 2007 05:00 PM (GDvg8)
20
Hmmmmmmmmmmmmm.
memomachine may very well be onto something there. Similarly, we must treat as ABSOLUTELY SINCERE Beauchamp's assertion that he loves "chicks that have been intimate—with IEDs. It really turns me on—melted skin, missing limbs, plastic noses . . . .” He LITERALLY means that disfigured women turn him on. Isn't that sick?
And when, in the story, he said, “In fact, I was thinking of getting some girls together and doing a photo shoot. Maybe for a calendar? ‘IED Babes.’ We could have them pose in thongs and bikinis on top of the hoods of their blown-up vehicles," he meant it. He MEANT it. Beauchamp was not relating a classless, sick joke that he once made at the expense of another human being; he LITERALLY MEANS that he's going to try to make a calendar of disfigured women. How do we know that he means it literally? Because this is NON-FICTION. It's TRUE. And in real life, people don't make jokes.
Or if they do, memomachine doesn't understand them.
Hey: if I don't buy a copy of that calendar, does it mean that I hate the troops?
Posted by: nunaim at August 13, 2007 05:34 PM (+eeSm)
21
And thus, nunaim starts the rewriting of history.
The whole calendar thing was a joke.
In fact, even the story about laughing at a scarred woman was a joke.
The whole series was simply a conceptual, post-modern stab at humor, which only right-wing nutters would take seriously.
And, thus, history is rewritten.
Posted by: Lurking Observer at August 13, 2007 06:12 PM (/ZD7V)
22
No, Observer, you fool. I'm not trying to spin the whole series of articles as a joke. I'm saying that within these stories Beauchamp shows himself making inappropriate jokes about people who are dead or disfigured or whatever--that, in fact, was his point: that he had become so crass as to joke about such matters.
memomachine (hmmmm) didn't seem to understand that--and I guess you didn't either.
Sorry to deflate your "rewriting history" meme.
Posted by: nunaim at August 13, 2007 06:57 PM (CanSB)
23
I think the point here is that it was BOTH, A DUMB JOKE AND A LIE.
The basic fact is these events never occurred to begin with, so while someone even Beauchamp might have told sucgh a joke at some point, these particular events COULD not have happened.
You simply can't find a single shell casing in a dark street with dogs fighting over a corpse for who knows how long.
Then he ties the casing to the Iraqi Police by it being square and IP are the only ones with guns - those are both lies.
Then to top the night off, what happened to the trip to the Iraq police station????
The whole thing was a badly made up story with a dumb joke thrown in like the end of a Chevy Chase movie.
You can tell it didn't happen or the guy is a total dufus because it is an American cultural reference completely out of place in the Middle East.
So, BOTH are truem, the story never happened and the joke certainly didn't happen in this context. It was probably some smart saregeant that he heard the joke from and made it his own.
Posted by: Poppy at August 13, 2007 07:02 PM (dJFjD)
24
that, in fact, was his point: that he had become so crass as to joke about such matters.
Actually, nunaim, even TNR admits that the burned face story happened in Kuwait, before Beauchamp ever got to Iraq.
Therefore, he didn't "become" crass, he already WAS crass before getting to Iraq.
Now, the argument could be made that it was Army Basic Training that did that to him, but that is most emphatically NOT the argument that TNR was making... they were trying to make the argument that it was being in Iraq that did that.
Thus, once again, you are rewriting history. And we won't let you. So go back to DU where they specialize in that sort of bovine fecal matter.
Posted by: C-C-G at August 13, 2007 07:21 PM (eUgIf)
25
Why don't you morons give it a rest! It should be obvious to everyone that Beauchamp is merely a bit immature, but has good intentions. I would certainly have been happy to serve with someone of his caliber when I was in the service.
Posted by: John Cole at August 13, 2007 07:29 PM (DMnkh)
26
"I would certainly have been happy to serve with someone of his caliber when I was in the service."
Who wouldn't happily serve with a 9mm squarebacked guy like Beauchamp? (the Sicilians would call him a pezzonovante, or bigshot, before they mirthlessly laughed and laughed)
Posted by: mrobvious at August 13, 2007 07:38 PM (8Y/fG)
27
t should be obvious to everyone that Beauchamp is merely a bit immature, but has good intentions. I would certainly have been happy to serve with someone of his caliber when I was in the service.
I did serve with some people who, as you termed it, were a bit immature. And I wasn't happy to have done so.
In fact, later in my career, I helped to get rid of some people of Beauchamps (lack of) caliber.
He's a buddy f'er. He cares about Scott Beauchamp and his dialog and advancing his frame of reference and his personal ambitions with no regard for his fellow soldiers nor the US Army.
What I suspect is you were someone just like Beauchamp.
Posted by: John in CA at August 13, 2007 07:44 PM (PQVEt)
28
I think you are missing the point. We're well beyond the point where the veracity of Beauchamp's stories make a bit of difference. What a trivial issue to bother over. Rather sad, really.
Posted by: david at August 13, 2007 08:18 PM (DHJuY)
29
CCG, I want to believe that you are not as breathtakingly stupid as you are pretending to be.
As would be clear to anyone whose IQ is larger than their waistline, I'm not even talking about the freakin' veracity of the guy's stories any more.
Let me rephrase the situation for you as I would tell it to a little kid.
The Big Bad Scott Beauchamp made up a story about an army man. The made-up man in the story was named Scott Beauchamp, too. Isn't that silly? The name of the guy who wrote the story is Scott Beauchamp, and he was writing about a made-up character named Scott Beauchamp. Weird!
Anyway, to show how mean and nasty and icky-rude-rude he was, the made-up Scott Beauchamp--the character in the story-- said some mean things. The made-up Scott Beauchamp was trying to make jokes, but they were mean jokes, and they made a lady sad. Isn't it mean to make jokes about somebody and make them sad?
Why would the author make that story up? Good question. I guess that he was trying to make you think that army men are bad, and he did that by showing an army man making a mean joke about somebody.
I hope that clears things up, CCG. And you can take your whole "rewriting history" thing, fold it until it's all corners, and insert it rectally.
Try to use your brain, you fool.
Posted by: nunaim at August 13, 2007 08:35 PM (CanSB)
30
"Had it not been hidden behind the subscriber firewall, I would have found this example of The New Republic's unwillingness to fact check Scott Beauchamp long ago."
Good gracious, you mean you hadn't actually *read* the Beauchamp material until now?
Because it was 'hidden' in the subscribers-only section?
I'm having trouble believing this.
Posted by: Sadly, No! Customer Services at August 13, 2007 09:09 PM (mQCDC)
31
So, the fact that Beauchamp was writing a non-fiction column and the fact that, as nunaim puts it, he made up his story about an army man is irrelevant.
I guess this is how history is rewritten. By denying that anything was rewritten.
George Orwell would be quite familiar with that, of course.
Posted by: Lurking Observer at August 13, 2007 09:49 PM (JV3MD)
32
nunaim, I would try explaining this to someone of your intellectual capacity, but that would preclude being able to read, therefore I won't bother talking down to you.
Simply put, TNR is not, as you seem to want us to believe it is, a journal of fiction as is, say, Asimov's Science Fiction. It purports to be a journal of fact, similar to, for instance, National Review.
Therefore, the burden was, and is, upon the editors of TNR to indicate clearly if and when an article is fictional--which, by the way, includes satire. They did not.
Therefore, being that they were published in a journal that purports to be a journal of fact, and not fiction, is is wholly reasonable for the average reader to conclude that they are not reading fiction.
So, you can have your crow baked or fried.
Baked: TNR knew the stories were fictional and did not include a notice to the reader of such.
Fried: TNR believed the stories to be factual and published them as such, and now they and their defenders (such as you, nunaim), are now desperately spinning this any which way you can in order to save your precious reputations.
Which shall it be?
Posted by: C-C-G at August 13, 2007 09:56 PM (eUgIf)
33
Therefore, being that they were published in a journal that purports to be a journal of fact, and not fiction, is is wholly reasonable for the average reader to conclude that they are not reading fiction.
So, you can have your crow baked or fried.
So wait. Let me catch up here. You guys have managed to establish that one incident took place in Kuwait, not Iraq. Therefore, and for that reason, the articles are 'fiction.'
Posted by: Sadly, No! Customer Services at August 13, 2007 10:05 PM (mQCDC)
34
No, SNCS, the Army has established that none of the incidents recorded have ever taken place, based on sworn testimony from the soldiers who were supposedly there, backed up with the threat of court-martial if they perjured themselves.
We have Army officers going on record with their names and ranks saying that these incidents never happened.
Who does TNR have that is willing to stand up with their name and rank to say that they did, besides Beauchamp?
Posted by: C-C-G at August 13, 2007 10:08 PM (eUgIf)
35
Of more importance, Sadly (how apt), TNR and Beauchamp have not been able to produce any legitimate sources to confirm any of his allegations.
Whereas the Army has not been able to produce any evidence of the veracity of the Beauchamp's stories, and moreover, Beauchamp himself has submitted statements to the Army that he made it up.
You can say all you want that he was coerced, under duress, whatever. Bottom line is this - TNR and Beauchamp haven't presented any evidence to prove his story - except for Beauchamp's own scurrilous charges.
Posted by: John in CA at August 13, 2007 10:13 PM (PQVEt)
36
No, SNCS, the Army has established that none of the incidents recorded have ever taken place, based on sworn testimony from the soldiers who were supposedly there, backed up with the threat of court-martial if they perjured themselves.
Where is this sworn testimony? And why is the Army denying that Beauchamp recanted?
Posted by: Sadly, No! Customer Services at August 13, 2007 10:23 PM (mQCDC)
37
SNCS, where has the Army denied that Beauchamp recanted? I want a verifiable link, and not to some wacky lefty site like Kos or DU.
Posted by: C-C-G at August 13, 2007 10:25 PM (eUgIf)
38
And now we see Phase II of the rewriting of history:
Repeatedly ask the same question over and over.
Never mind that CY and his commenters have torn the Bradley stories apart.
Never mind that CY and his commenters have torn the square-backed casings apart.
Never mind that CY, his commenters, and the Army have not only shown the story about the female contractor would have occurred at a different time and place than Beauchamp claimed, but no one can identify this woman. Not from mess hall records, not from eyewitness confirmation.
Yet, SNCS claims "except for putting it in the wrong place, everything else is true." And, like digitus (if they're not digitus themselves), they'll go through the whole kabuki over again, through a 200+ comment thread.
And, when thoroughly picked apart, SNCS or digitus or nunaim will come back, perhaps in another guise, in another thread, and yet again question "How was Beauchamp lying?"
Until, like the Rosenbergs' innocence, or Truman's Hiroshima perfidy, or the Holocuast deniers' claims about the gas chambers, their "questions" and the historical reality sit side-by-side.
Posted by: Lurking Observer at August 13, 2007 10:30 PM (JV3MD)
39
Lurking Observer, excellent. You've nailed it.
Even as hundreds of refutations of Beauchamp's fantasies roll in, the Beauchamp supporters and apologists can't come up with one bit of evidence to prove that he's not a liar. All they have is the words he wrote in some fantasy articles and TNR's assertions that they fact checked his story.
Posted by: John in CA at August 13, 2007 10:36 PM (PQVEt)
40
SNCS, where has the Army denied that Beauchamp recanted? I want a verifiable link, and not to some wacky lefty site like Kos or DU.
Um, if you've been following the story at all, you ought to have seen in the Weekly Standard followed this sourced one at TNR:
When we called Army spokesman Major Steven F. Lamb and asked about an anonymously sourced allegation that Beauchamp had recanted his articles in a sworn statement, he told us, “I have no knowledge of that.” He added, “If someone is speaking anonymously [to The Weekly Standard], they are on their own.”
Posted by: Sadly, No! Customer Services at August 13, 2007 10:36 PM (mQCDC)
41
That is, the anonymous claim in the Weekly Standard was followed by the sourced one in TNR.
Posted by: Sadly, No! Customer Services at August 13, 2007 10:38 PM (mQCDC)
42
Okay, I have to admit, I hadn't expected Phase III to kick in quite so quickly.
Simply making s*** up.
As though none of the exchanges here and elsewhere have occurred, which details that Lamb's comment about "no knowledge," is not knowing about any claim of a recantation, but (Lamb) knowing:
1. That the Army investigation showed that Beauchamp lied; and
2. That Beauchamp had signed a statement
now we have SNCS and their ilk claiming that Lamb is actually accepting that Beauchamp has recanted.
The kind of tortured reading that's required, of course, to arrive at this is just like the use of ellipses to claim "no imminent threat" is the same as "imminent threat," or that WTC-7 was deliberately demolished.
But what does that matter?
The TROOF must be served!
Posted by: Lurking Observer at August 13, 2007 10:40 PM (JV3MD)
43
Okay, so one (1) Army officer has no knowledge of Beauchamp's statement and that means it doesn't exist?
Puh-leeeeeeeeze. Get a good argument or go back to DU.
Posted by: C-C-G at August 13, 2007 10:42 PM (eUgIf)
44
No, C-C-G, it's not that way at all.
Lamb is saying that he has no knowledge of a recantation.
In other words, there is a report that Beauchamp has personally recanted his stuff. Somebody asks the Army PAO (Lamb) what this recantation is about.
And Lamb says he knows nothing of a recantation.
Which SN!CS and company then jump on as proof that the Army does know of the recantation.
Like I said, just making s*** up.
Posted by: Lurking Observer at August 13, 2007 10:48 PM (JV3MD)
45
OK, you guys have me totally convinced.
Has anyone debunked the assertion that zombie dogs have green eyes? I am pretty sure they have red ones. Is there someone who could email an expert and debunk this outrageous lie?
Posted by: g at August 13, 2007 10:49 PM (DyW+U)
46
Dogs have green eyes?
Occasionally. Its one of the least frequent colors though. There are astronomical odds against a whole group having them.
Posted by: Purple Avenger at August 13, 2007 10:50 PM (mImtA)
47
And now we see Phase II of the rewriting of history:
Repeatedly ask the same question over and over.
Never mind that CY and his commenters have torn the Bradley stories apart.
According to TNR's explanation, the method is to swing the Bradley's tail out briefly, at which point the dog runs into the vehicle's path. I haven't seen anyone debunk the explanation they actually gave.
Never mind that CY and his commenters have torn the square-backed casings apart.
You might be aware that the Glock 17 and 19 are remarkable among handguns in that they leave a square impression in a casing.
Never mind that CY, his commenters, and the Army have not only shown the story about the female contractor would have occurred at a different time and place than Beauchamp claimed, but no one can identify this woman. Not from mess hall records, not from eyewitness confirmation.
I guess this part is still developing, then.
Yet, SNCS claims "except for putting it in the wrong place, everything else is true." And, like digitus (if they're not digitus themselves), they'll go through the whole kabuki over again, through a 200+ comment thread.
I didn't claim any such thing, as anyone can clearly by scrolling up the page.
So this Digitus has an award-winning lefty satire blog, for instance being the 2006 Weblog Award winner in the humor category? If so, he or she might be us!
(We work hard for the money, so hard for you honey, so you better treat us right!)
[...]
Until, like the Rosenbergs' innocence, or Truman's Hiroshima perfidy, or the Holocuast deniers' claims about the gas chambers, their "questions" and the historical reality sit side-by-side.
You forgot Alger Hiss?
Posted by: Sadly, No! Customer Services at August 13, 2007 10:53 PM (mQCDC)
48
I note that SNCS didn't even bother to respond to the fact that he is conflating one officer's statement that he doesn't have knowledge of a document to mean that the document doesn't exist.
Probably realizes that he dug himself a good deep hole there, so he'll move on to the next spot to dig a hole at. -LOL-
Posted by: C-C-G at August 13, 2007 10:56 PM (eUgIf)
49
Okay, so one (1) Army officer has no knowledge of Beauchamp's statement and that means it doesn't exist?
Puh-leeeeeeeeze. Get a good argument or go back to DU.
Major Steven F. Lamb is the deputy Public Affairs Officer for Multi National Division-Baghdad.
The Weekly Standard's source is "a military source close to the investigation."
You didn't even Google, did you?
Posted by: Sadly, No! Customer Services at August 13, 2007 10:58 PM (mQCDC)
50
SNCS, you glossed over an important word: DEPUTY.
He is not the PAO himself.
And, given that much of the investigation was conducted in Kuwait, Baghdad may not have been aware of parts of the investigation.
It may also have been that he hadn't read the briefing on that particular document yet.
In short, Major Lamb's statement that he, personally, has no knowledge of the document does NOT equate to evidence of the non-existence of the document.
Quit digging that hole before you end up in China, okay?
Posted by: C-C-G at August 13, 2007 11:07 PM (eUgIf)
51
Talking about not reading.
Bradley drivers, Army tracked vehicle drivers, and the BAe public affairs guy are all here at CY talking about whether TNR's version of the Bradley story could occur.
Oh, and not just the part about the dog, ranging from Bradley's sliding to whether tracks would leave dogs cut in half, but still smiling, but also the parts about knocking over curbs, and taking out corners of buildings, but SN!CS claims "it's not been addressed."
Similarly, SN!CS takes it upon himself to modify the story (square-backed casings, NOT square impressions) to suit him/themselves.
Of course, that Glocks are not solely in the hands of the Iraqi police (the whole point of the square-backed casing story---Beauchamp saw the square-backed casings, and knew not only that they were Glock rounds but only the Iraqi police used Glocks) is again wholly ignored by SN!CS.
But, when you're supporting the TROOF!, warping the argument to suit your point, rewriting what Beauchamp actually wrote, it's all good, man.
It's all good.
Posted by: Lurking Observer at August 13, 2007 11:10 PM (JV3MD)
52
In short, Major Lamb's statement that he, personally, has no knowledge of the document does NOT equate to evidence of the non-existence of the document.
I see what you're saying. If Maj. Lamb says something that contradicts what the Weekly Standard's anonymous source says, he must not know what he's talking about.
But when Maj. Lamb says the following, it's undeniable:
An investigation has been completed and the allegations made by Pvt. Beauchamp were found to be false. His platoon and company were interviewed and no one could substantiate the claims.
In other words, all you need to do is throw out the notion of logical consistency, and you can have things whatever way you want.
Posted by: Sadly, No! Customer Services at August 13, 2007 11:18 PM (mQCDC)
53
But, hey, SN!CS was the 2006 WEBLOG AWARD WINNER IN THE HUMOR CATEGORY!!!!
[Cue slow clap.]
So, is this you trying out new material?
'Cuz if it is, you might wanna work a bit harder for that money.
(Your reputation follows you wherever you go)
Posted by: Lurking Observer at August 13, 2007 11:21 PM (JV3MD)
54
SNCS, give me your address. I wanna send you a quarter so you can buy a friggin' clue.
One officer not knowing about a document does not mean the document does not exist.
Can you get that through your durned skull, please?
By the way, since you are accepting Major Lamb's words as gospel, can we now conclude that Beauchamp is a liar and a fraud?
Posted by: C-C-G at August 13, 2007 11:23 PM (eUgIf)
55
Talking about not reading.
Bradley drivers, Army tracked vehicle drivers, and the BAe public affairs guy are all here at CY talking about whether TNR's version of the Bradley story could occur.
Did the public affairs guy comment on TNR's explanation? Go check and see.
Oh, and not just the part about the dog, ranging from Bradley's sliding to whether tracks would leave dogs cut in half, but still smiling, but also the parts about knocking over curbs, and taking out corners of buildings, but SN!CS claims "it's not been addressed."
I believe his answer was in the realm of 'it seems unlikely that they'd do that, because they'd get in trouble.'
Similarly, SN!CS takes it upon himself to modify the story (square-backed casings, NOT square impressions) to suit him/themselves.
I think it's a rather conclusive explanation, don't you? Much better than the zany notion that Pvt. Beauchamp is somehow unaware that casings are circular and not square.
Of course, that Glocks are not solely in the hands of the Iraqi police (the whole point of the square-backed casing story---Beauchamp saw the square-backed casings, and knew not only that they were Glock rounds but only the Iraqi police used Glocks) is again wholly ignored by SN!CS.
I don't know who uses Glocks in Baghdad. Notice though that you're making a special pleading that Beauchamp couldn't know for sure where the Glock round came from, and therefore might have been wrong. Not exactly a 'debunking.'
But, when you're supporting the TROOF!, warping the argument to suit your point, rewriting what Beauchamp actually wrote, it's all good, man.
It's all good.
Did you read what Beauchamp actually wrote, or have you just read quotes of it here and there?
Posted by: Sadly, No! Customer Services at August 13, 2007 11:28 PM (mQCDC)
56
SNCS, give me your address. I wanna send you a quarter so you can buy a friggin' clue.
One officer not knowing about a document does not mean the document does not exist.
Right, 'one officer' being an official spokesman for Multi National Division-Baghdad.
Okay, so in that case, there might be a document that says Beauchamp is a child sex predator. How can we know there isn't?!?!?!
I like how you keep telling me to get a clue and stop digging a hole. The 'Beauchamp recanted' story is 100% unsourced and was specifically denied by the same official MND-B spokesman you guys are quoting elsewhere.
Do you see a problem with that?
Posted by: Sadly, No! Customer Services at August 13, 2007 11:37 PM (mQCDC)
57
This whole thing has given me such a bad case of tired-head. TNR is standing by the stories but wont release the names of soldiers who might be war criminals? And just what was TNR's stance when Abu Ghraib broke? I'm sure coverup was printed somewhere even though the military was investigating well before the press was aware of the situation. And by accusing the Army of pressuring Beauchamp to recant aren't they accusing the military of a coverup? Why would the military want Beauchamp to recant unless they knew it was true? Otherwise just the truth would be fine and they would proceed from there. My god, this is making the hair on my arms hurt!! Make it all stop someone!
Posted by: chas at August 13, 2007 11:39 PM (oNBzF)
58
WHAT logical inconsistency.
The Army conducts an investigation. Lamb is informed of that investigation, and issues a statement.
Other people claim that Beauchamp has signed an official statement that he is recanting his claims.
Unless that statement was part of the investigation, why would Lamb necessarily know anything about this? Lamb's own comment, and that of the investigation, is that they checked w/ Beauchamp's fellow soldiers, and they denied any knowledge of the incidents.
Did Beauchamp sign such a statement? An anonymous source tell the Weekly Standard "yes," TNR claims that an anonymous source told them "no." Lamb's point is not contradictory, if such a statement was not part of the investigation.
More to the point, if Lamb himself is not aware of such a document, does that mean that the document does not exist?
As for the rest:
Hey, if what Beauchamp MEANT to write was square-indentation, maybe he meant to write Kuwait, instead of Iraq! And BEFORE going to Iraq, not AFTER going to Iraq.
Maybe he meant to say that they hadn't cut dogs in half, or slammed into buildings, or he had a TC who enjoyed being knocked about.
Maybe he meant to say lots of things. And SN!CS knows it all, thanks to that special clairvoyance granted to the writers of an AWARD-WINNING humor/satire blog.
Sure thing.
G'night SN!CS.
(C'mon baby, dance that dance, come on baby, dance that dance.)
Posted by: Lurking Observer at August 13, 2007 11:39 PM (JV3MD)
59
SNCS, the one officer is the DEPUTY Public Information Officer.
Do you have any comprehension of what the term "DEPUTY" means?
It means that there is someone above him. Someone that might know more than him. Someone that is the true official spokesman for that division.
Now do you get it?
Posted by: C-C-G at August 13, 2007 11:41 PM (eUgIf)
60
In Iraq the normal and common form of ID is called a "Ginsea". It is a laminated, greenish photo ID, which invariably is fake. Driver's licenses are almost unheard of. This story is BS, like all the rest of Beauchamp's idiocy.
Posted by: h at August 13, 2007 11:45 PM (cnphj)
61
Oh wow, take a look at what else Major Lamb has said
An Army investigation into the Baghdad Diarist, a soldier in Iraq who wrote anonymous columns for The New Republic, has concluded that the sometimes shockingly cruel reports were false.
“We are not going into the details of the investigation,” Maj. Steven F. Lamb, deputy public affairs officer in Baghdad, wrote in an e-mail message. “The allegations are false, his platoon and company were interviewed, and no one could substantiate the claims he made."
from this article
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/08/08/washington/08diarist.html?ei=5124&en=33f5f5d8678c992a&ex=1344225600&adxnnl=1&partner=permalink&exprod=permalink&adxnnlx=1186581767-NqjRAZ3XpB7hxmlnQ2MYGg
Posted by: chas at August 13, 2007 11:54 PM (oNBzF)
62
SNCS, the one officer is the DEPUTY Public Information Officer.
Do you have any comprehension of what the term "DEPUTY" means?
Why yes. If you've ever done any reporting, you'll be quite familiar with these 'deputy' entities. Frequently, their job is to be official spokesmen -- i.e., to talk to people like journalists.
If you're implying that there's an unknown higher-up who would know more about this case, you must have done some basic research. I.e., who is he?
Posted by: Sadly, No! Customer Services at August 14, 2007 12:00 AM (mQCDC)
63
Did Beauchamp sign such a statement? An anonymous source tell the Weekly Standard "yes," TNR claims that an anonymous source told them "no." Lamb's point is not contradictory, if such a statement was not part of the investigation.
The Weekly Standard cited an anonymous 'military source close to the investigation.'
TNR cited a named Army spokesman.
If the statement was 'not part of the investigation,' then why is the Weekly Standard citing a source close to the investigation?
You didn't go read the Weekly Standard piece, did you?
Posted by: Sadly, No! Customer Services at August 14, 2007 12:13 AM (mQCDC)
64
Did the public affairs guy comment on TNR's explanation? Go check and see.
No, he commented on STB's tales. Said they were found to be crapola, IIRC.
TNR cited a named Army spokesman.
Who said he has no knowledge of the document in question, and then allowed that someone else who does might have commented on it and that this would not be Army policy. You're assuming that the PAO would have intimate knowledge of every facet of the investigation, and that just isn't the case.
But did you notice that when TNR quoted Lamb, they left out the "stories are all a bunch of hooey" part? You know, the part you quoted up above there. Any idea why they decided not to relate that part of the story?
Posted by: Pablo at August 14, 2007 01:30 AM (yTndK)
65
The 'Beauchamp recanted' story is 100% unsourced and was specifically denied by the same official MND-B spokesman you guys are quoting elsewhere.
Someone apparently cannot read. "I have no knowledge of X" does not equal "There is no X".
Posted by: Pablo at August 14, 2007 01:35 AM (yTndK)
66
I think Sadly No must be stupid.
Posted by: DaveW at August 14, 2007 06:40 AM (gL75I)
67
Yes. He also seems to think that "anonymously sourced" is the same thing as "100% unsourced". Which is pretty damned funny given TNR's "corroboration" of the Beauchamp tales.
Posted by: Pablo at August 14, 2007 07:13 AM (yTndK)
68
Someone apparently cannot read. "I have no knowledge of X" does not equal "There is no X".
Fair enough then. There might be a document unknown to the spokesman, but known to the Weekly Standard's anonymous source.
Meanwhile, TNR's explanation isn't credible because it relies on anonymous sources.
Are you failing to see the problems with this reasoning?
But did you notice that when TNR quoted Lamb, they left out the "stories are all a bunch of hooey" part? You know, the part you quoted up above there. Any idea why they decided not to relate that part of the story?
Okay, TNR's brief, single-paragraph followup statement could've included some phrase like 'despite official denials.'
This proves exactly what, now?
Posted by: Sadly, No! Customer Services at August 14, 2007 07:27 AM (mQCDC)
69
He also seems to think that "anonymously sourced" is the same thing as "100% unsourced". Which is pretty damned funny given TNR's "corroboration" of the Beauchamp tales.
Yes, bad phrasing on my part. I apologize.
So let's move on. You were about to explain how TNR's anonymous sourcing means that you can't believe anything they say, whereas the Weekly Standard's anonymous sourcing is perfectly understandable.
Unless you want call me stupid or quibble over diction, evading the issue entirely. I'd totally understand if that were the case.
Posted by: Sadly, No! Customer Services at August 14, 2007 07:48 AM (mQCDC)
70
There might be a document unknown to the spokesman, but known to the Weekly Standard's anonymous source.
Yes, exactly.
Meanwhile, TNR's explanation isn't credible because it relies on anonymous sources.
No, TNR's explanation isn't credible because it flies in the face of overwhelming evidence, and their sources, when independently verified, say different things than what TNR tells us they said. See all of the members of Beauchamp's company, and Doug Coffey. Also, see Beauchamp himself. You'll recall that the Army says they interviewed his platoon and company and "no one could substantiate the claims." That set includes Beauchamp. And once you get yourself wrapped around that, consider why TNR didn't name any of their experts, like Mr. Coffey.
Okay, TNR's brief, single-paragraph followup statement could've included some phrase like 'despite official denials.'
No, that is not an official denial. That is the result of the Army investigation that TNR told us they would report it:
But, late last week, the Army began its own investigation, short-circuiting our efforts. Beauchamp had his cell-phone and computer taken away and is currently unable to speak to even his family. His fellow soldiers no longer feel comfortable communicating with reporters. If further substantive information comes to light, TNR will, of course, share it with you.
So, the Army completes it's investigation, issues a statement of its findings, TNR fails to mention it at all, and you think a "despite offficial denials" qualifier would cover it? You don't think that's substantive information that ought to fall under their promise to report? Alllllrighty then. What do you think of the fact they they didn't offer even the vague qualifier?
You were about to explain how TNR's anonymous sourcing means that you can't believe anything they say, whereas the Weekly Standard's anonymous sourcing is perfectly understandable.
I'll type this slowly. TNR's sources have either been refuted or have contradicted what TNR says they said. WS's source is simply an anonymous source. Not gospel, mind you, though WS might see it that way given that the source isn't anonymous to them. It could be true, it could be false. But Goldfarb has been upfront with all of his sources except that one. TNR has been quoting people anonymously for no journalistic reason whatsoever and has been leaving pertinent information out of its reportage. If anyone gets the benefit of the doubt here, it isn't TNR.
If all you've read about this was from WS, then you'd know exactly what TNR's positions and arguments are. If all you've read was from TNR, you'd be missing about 3/4 of the available information. Why do you suppose that is?
Posted by: Pablo at August 14, 2007 08:29 AM (yTndK)
71
Okay, I'll type this slowly too. Apropos unnamed sources, when you say "all of the members of Beauchamp's company," can you provide a single name or quote? Is there a single word attributed to any of the unknown number of people that the Army says were interviewed?
Moreover, can you provide any detail at all of this investigation besides a single terse quote by Maj. Lamb? Where are 'the findings' that you say were issued?
Can you explain this assumption that Coffey was the only source at that company who talked to TNR, and explain why he wasn't asked to comment on TNR's extremely clear and concise explanation of the Bradley anecdote -- but was instead asked about some wacky theory that someone else made up?
While we're at it, there's one ironclad reason for journalists not to name their sources. You know what it is, right?
And yes, if you follow the Weekly Standard, you get a better sense of the controversy over the Beauchamp articles. See, on the one hand you have TNR, which published articles that the Weekly Standard is whooping up a controversy over, while on the other hand, you have the Weekly Standard, which is whooping up a controversy over those articles. Not exactly a comparable pair of goalposts there, is it? Should TNR be leading the pack in finding new accusations to hurl against itself?
At a certain point you have to sit down with yourself and be like, "Wait a minute, what are we doing here? This is another of those Jamil Hussein deals, isn't it? We're in danger of losing our way."
Posted by: Sadly, No! Customer Services at August 14, 2007 09:43 AM (mQCDC)
72
Well, maybe the soldier could have been able to read "organ donor" on the ID, but probably not likely. Most soldiers have basic Arabic only.
Story sounds like crap, anyway.
Posted by: the_velociraptor at August 14, 2007 10:18 AM (tGf35)
73
At a certain point you have to sit down with yourself and be like, "Wait a minute, what are we doing here?
Since Sadly, No! is a lefty humor blog, why is there any point in taking them seriously, especially when they reason in circles. Just because they are fond of masturbating in public doesn't mean others have to join in.
I salute everyone's efforts nonetheless.
Of course, they claim their inquiries are serious, wouldn't you in their place. Heh!
Posted by: daleyrocks at August 14, 2007 10:18 AM (0pZel)
74
Dear Sadly, No! Customer Services,
Your defense of my honor is greatly appreciated. I've tried to express my gratitude, but with my limited interweb access and censorship I can't go into too many details.
You sir(s) are the real American heroes.
Posted by: scott thomas at August 14, 2007 10:19 AM (CQcil)
75
Dear Sadly, No! Customer Services,
I really hate to be a bother, but as one of the ReichWing's persecuted, you probably understand my plight. They're trying to destroy my moral by forcing me to endure days upon days locked in the barracks.
Worst of all, my XBox got busted in the "investigation". Could you hook a brother in arms up? I know they're expensive, so maybe you could lead a little fund-raiser or something?
Thanks a ton!
Posted by: scott thomas at August 14, 2007 10:23 AM (CQcil)
76
Is there a single word attributed to any of the unknown number of people that the Army says were interviewed?
The Army isn't doing journalism, and they cannot, BY LAW, release the details of an investigation unless they're bringing charges. You want a single name? Scott Beauchamp.
Moreover, can you provide any detail at all of this investigation besides a single terse quote by Maj. Lamb? Where are 'the findings' that you say were issued?
What part of "We talked to everyone and no one could substantiate the claims" do you need fleshed out? You were just ready to wave the Army's findings away with "despite official denials" but you want a freaking novel to explain "We can't confirm any of it with anyone."? Furthermore, Lamb is not the only person to say this. Peruse the front page of this blog and you will find no less than 4 other named Army sources saying the stories are false. Do your homework. Boylan, Sams, Russo, Luedeke. Google it.
Can you explain this assumption that Coffey was the only source at that company who talked to TNR, and explain why he wasn't asked to comment on TNR's extremely clear and concise explanation of the Bradley anecdote -- but was instead asked about some wacky theory that someone else made up?
I assume you're referring to "Shock Troops" because that's what Bob showed him and asked him to comment on. Heh. What leads you to believe that there's another source at BAE Systems? You know, one who believes that TNR's "extremely clear and concise" explanation is actually plausible? Coffey doesn't. If there was, TNR ought to name them, don't you think? Can you explain your assumption that there's another source?
And yes, if you follow the Weekly Standard, you get a better sense of the controversy over the Beauchamp articles. See, on the one hand you have TNR, which published articles that the Weekly Standard is whooping up a controversy over, while on the other hand, you have the Weekly Standard, which is whooping up a controversy over those articles. Not exactly a comparable pair of goalposts there, is it?
I assume you've heard of The New York Times, The Washington Post, ABC, The Columbia School of Journalism and a kajillion milblogs and other blogs. You have, haven't you? WS broke the story, but they're not alone in debunking it. Bob has done as much reporting here as anyone else has.
Should TNR be leading the pack in finding new accusations to hurl against itself?
They should be leading the pack in determining the veracity of the story and getting to the truth, unless they want to be regarded as a partisan ideological rag, given that it is their credibility on the line. But they're not doing that at all. Corrections/retractions are perfectly acceptable in journalism, and should be considered a mark of honest reporting. It's their honor being questioned. If I were them, I'd be debunking the claims against me in great detail. They're not even close to that.
You still haven't addressed TNR's failure to report the Army's findings other than to wonder whether those findings have really been issued. Why is that? And while you're contemplating that, you can also think about why we didn't hear from TNR about the Camp Buhering PAO's statement that even in Kuwait, melty-face lady is "an urban legend, a myth" didn't make it into TNR report, despite Jason Zengerle being fully aware of it, having been in contact with her.
Posted by: Pablo at August 14, 2007 10:31 AM (yTndK)
77
daleyrocks,
Since Sadly, No! is a lefty humor blog, why is there any point in taking them seriously, especially when they reason in circles.
Same reason kids used to play with tops. It's fun watching them spin out of control. :-P
Posted by: Pablo at August 14, 2007 10:34 AM (yTndK)
78
Pablo - It must have been a slow news day over there yesterday or something, with Rove resigning and all.
Posted by: daleyrocks at August 14, 2007 10:39 AM (0pZel)
79
I question the timing!
Posted by: Pablo at August 14, 2007 11:10 AM (yTndK)
80
The entire Bradley incident is based on a segment on "YouTube". I'm surprised that this has not been picked up. Type in "Stalingrad" and go to the movie clip (auf Deutsch ). A T 34 cuts a soldier in half- with the torso "sitting up" exactly as in the article! This would have been impossible, but Private Joker didn't realize this.He substituted a dog for the soldier -not too many soldaten in Iraq. I believe tha.t most of the stories are lifted from "Full Metal Jacket"
Posted by: LCDR at August 14, 2007 11:11 AM (VsZGU)
81
Peruse the front page of this blog and you will find no less than 4 other named Army sources saying the stories are false. Do your homework. Boylan, Sams, Russo, Luedeke. Google it.
I'm familiar.
So when Lamb says he has no knowledge of something, that doesn't mean it isn't true. But when these other military sources say they have no knowledge, have not been able to confirm, etc., it does mean it isn't true.
See, I'm not going to be able to explain this to you, but 'reasoning' requires that you apply the same standards to both sides of a question. Otherwise what you're doing is called 'rationalizing.'
'Rationalizing' is when you decide what you're going to believe, and then go looking around for things to support it.
You know, whenever I engage a claim here, it magically changes into some completely different claim. For instance, you asked why you get more detail on the Beauchamp controversy from the Weekly Standard than from TNR. And I gave a reason, and now you're all like:
I assume you've heard of The New York Times, The Washington Post, ABC, The Columbia School of Journalism and a kajillion milblogs and other blogs. You have, haven't you? WS broke the story, but they're not alone in debunking it.
That's what I mean by goalposts shifting. You just find any argument that contradicts the last thing I said, whether or not in makes any sense in context.
The beautiful thing is that you finish it off with projection, saying that I can't read, haven't done my homework, am irrational, am determined to spin things, and so forth.
So let's return to the central issue here.
What part of "We talked to everyone and no one could substantiate the claims" do you need fleshed out?
The part where you apply a very strict standard of evidence to TNR, and another very different standard of evidence to that terse official denial by the Army.
On the one hand, the standard is 'every statement must be proven, or else it is false.' On the other hand, the standard is 'anything they say is assumed to be true.'
That's not reasoning, bub.
Posted by: Sadly, No! Customer Services at August 14, 2007 11:32 AM (mQCDC)
82
OK. We admit it. We've got absolutely nothing on this Beauchamp story. We're a bunch of gibbering gibbon ankle biters making strawman arguments that don't even pass the blush test.
Can you please give our Customer Service folks a break. They're just over here to annoy the crap out of you nutters because they are bored.
Posted by: Sadly, No! Brain Surgeons at August 14, 2007 11:39 AM (0pZel)
83
Is Beauchamp merely making a joke above? I admittedly didn't read it that way, but it very well could be the case.
And so we come to the point where the conservative/right-wing blogger makes a grudging and partial admission that he/she "might" have been mistaken about his/her all-too-quickly assumed opinion that was turned into a lengthy screed that proves to be embarrassingly long and wrong.
Is there a term for this? Given the frequency with which it happens on this end of the blogosphere, there really ought to be.
Posted by: Xanthippas at August 14, 2007 11:44 AM (9YWvw)
84
I'm familiar.
Then why are you asking if there's more than a terse quote from Lamb when you already know the answer to the question? Stick to jerking yourself off. I'm all set.
So when Lamb says he has no knowledge of something, that doesn't mean it isn't true. But when these other military sources say they have no knowledge, have not been able to confirm, etc., it does mean it isn't true.
Lamb didn't conduct the investigation. Lamb didn't interview the company. Now, if the lead investigator said he had no knowledge of such a statement, that would be dispositive. Lamb's statement is not. But of course, you already know that too.
'Rationalizing' is when you decide what you're going to believe, and then go looking around for things to support it.
And if you're going to do it, you ought to find some things that support what you want to believe instead of just wondering whether they might exist and using your wild ass guesses as evidence.
You just find any argument that contradicts the last thing I said, whether or not in makes any sense in context.
It doesn't make any sense. Your premise, which is that this is simply WS vs. TNR, one hand vs. the other, is wrong. This blog you're reading is proof of that, which you're studiously ignoring. So, what you said makes no sense, in context or out.
The beautiful thing is that you finish it off with projection, saying that I can't read, haven't done my homework, am irrational, am determined to spin things, and so forth.
Let's go back to the first statement quoted at the top of this post. I stand by my assessment, which you characterize accurately aside from the projection element.
The part where you apply a very strict standard of evidence to TNR, and another very different standard of evidence to that terse official denial by the Army.
No, not at all. The Army's statement is subject to scrutiny and can be easily debunked by finding anyone in the unit who will credibly contradict it. Unfortuantely for TNR, it seems that there is no one to toss them such a lifeline. They can't even seem to get in touch with corroborating Pvt Vandalay, scion of Vandalay Industries.
The Army, BY LAW (Did you notice this time where I said BY LAW?) cannot divulge the details of their investigation barring charges, but it seems there would be very few of them anyway. They haven't gathered evidence as much as they've looked for it and found that it doesn't exist, and that's what they've said about the matter. There's really not much more for them to say, even if they could. Now, there are people in a position to know who can talk about the investigation, and Scott Beauchamp is one of them.
On the one hand, the standard is 'every statement must be proven, or else it is false.' On the other hand, the standard is 'anything they say is assumed to be true.'
Again, your premise is wrong. TNR's and Beauchamps claims are false because they've been disproven. The standard is reasonable doubt and there is miniscule reasonable doubt that STB is a fabulist who sold TNR fiction as fact, and that TNR is desperately trying to conceal the fact that they got suckered because they wanted to believe....and went looking around for things to support that.
Posted by: Pablo at August 14, 2007 11:59 AM (yTndK)
85
HELLLOOOOOO, Sadly, No! Customer Services, HELLLLLLOOOOOOO?????
Dude, where's my XBox? Come on guys, I know you're busy, but I'm SOOOOOOOOOO bored.
Posted by: scott thomas at August 14, 2007 12:07 PM (CQcil)
86
And so we come to the point where the conservative/right-wing blogger makes a grudging and partial admission that he/she "might" have been mistaken about his/her all-too-quickly assumed opinion that was turned into a lengthy screed that proves to be embarrassingly long and wrong.
Is there a term for this? Given the frequency with which it happens on this end of the blogosphere, there really ought to be.
Yes, it's called "honesty", which is closely related to integrity. It comes from introspection, a willingness to consider new things and old things from new perspectives, and the desire to be factual. It's no wonder you're so unfamiliar with it.
Posted by: Pablo at August 14, 2007 12:09 PM (yTndK)
87
Pablo, each episode in this exchange is like entering a whole new reality in which you've switched things around, 'debunked' things that nobody ever said, and redesigned your criteria for evidence.
For the record, I think Beauchamp is a chump and that he probably embellished his stories.
I also think your arguments are classic Internet chatter, designed to confound more than enlighten, and to create occasions to declare victory instead of actually proving anything.
By which I mean that maybe 10% of what you say about Beauchamp and TNR is worth thinking about, while the rest is like watching a monkey scratch his nuts.
Sorry to be impolite and all, but this isn't some fascinating new spectacle. It's boring, and you may now proceed to the "HAHA LOL Teh suxxor iz fl33ing in teh f@ce of my sup3r1or r34son1ng sk1||z" selection of today's entertainment.
Posted by: Sadly, No! Customer Services at August 14, 2007 12:59 PM (mQCDC)
88
Yes, it's called "honesty", which is closely related to integrity. It comes from introspection, a willingness to consider new things and old things from new perspectives, and the desire to be factual. It's no wonder you're so unfamiliar with it.
Well, I suppose a quasi-admission of the possibility of wrongness counts for "honesty" here, so I'll give you that. But the rest...no, those qualities would actually prevent someone from launching into an anti-Beauchamp tiraded prompted by their dogged belief that everything the guy says must-and-can-only-be a lie, while missing the fact that the statement he made could easily be taken for a joke.
And anyway, if my questioning someone else's willingness to leap into a deep crevice of assumption to make a political point makes me unfamiliar with the "desire to be factual", then I'll take that as a compliment.
Posted by: Xanthippas at August 14, 2007 01:00 PM (9YWvw)
89
And anyway, if my questioning someone else's willingness to leap into a deep crevice of assumption to make a political point makes me unfamiliar with the "desire to be factual", then I'll take that as a compliment.
It's probably the lack of consistency that's your failing. But, hey praise on. Church is in session and I'd hate to get in the way of your delivered troof!
Posted by: Pablo at August 14, 2007 01:05 PM (yTndK)
90
Man, now I'm totally confused. If this is so friggin' boring, why does Sadly, No! Customers Services keep reappearing with John Kerry pretzel logic arguments that nobody sane would advance. Last night, this morning, etc., etc.
Not a very believable position that. After all, he could just polish his light bulbs or comb the hair on his palms, instead.
Posted by: daleyrocks at August 14, 2007 01:37 PM (0pZel)
91
It's probably the lack of consistency that's your failing.
I'm not sure what that post has to do with anything I've said here.
Posted by: Xanthippas at August 14, 2007 03:35 PM (9YWvw)
92
Well, start with "A FRAUD!!!1!eleven!!11!" and the delve into the details.
You remember details, don't you? Like the ones that have demolished the Diarist?
Maybe you can wash that down with a bit of Der Speigel.
Posted by: Pablo at August 14, 2007 03:46 PM (yTndK)
93
Pablo,
Try to be less clever, and more direct, in your writing. I'm still not sure what your point is. I don't see how an article in "Der Spiegel" about Iraq refutes the fact that the Pollack/O'Hanlon tour was a fraud (as recounted by Glenn Greenwald) or my original point that there ought to be a name for the silly "takebacks" that are all-too common on the right-wing blogosphere.
Posted by: Xanthippas at August 14, 2007 03:56 PM (9YWvw)
94
It's the fact that you think it's a fraud because Gleen(s) Greenwald tells you it is, based on what other people have had to say about O'Hanlon and Pollack and their failure to shout them down to his satisfaction.
Der Spiegel simply supports their FRAUD!!eleven!!111, with a detailed, balanced, optomistic report, very different from what they were printing a year ago.
Frankly, when you get your talking points from Socky McEllersburg, you've become a waste of time to talk to.
Posted by: Pablo at August 14, 2007 04:02 PM (yTndK)
95
It's the fact that you think it's a fraud because Gleen(s) Greenwald tells you it is, based on what other people have had to say about O'Hanlon and Pollack and their failure to shout them down to his satisfaction.
No, he quite clearly states what went into their visit to Iraq and how they were shown a very limited view of the country, how the two were portrayed as "war critics" when they are anything but, and how they've been consistently wrong in the past about the future in Iraq. Unlike here, he doesn't do it by spinning ambiguous fact; he gives you O'Hanlon's own answers to his questions, which are damning enough.
And I read the Der Spiegal report, which was "optimistic" only in the sense that the writer states that there is yet some hope for Iraq. It is detailed yes, but there's very little discussion of the intractable divisions that beset the Iraqi government. The surge was designed to facilitate some kind of political solution, and yet the Iraqi government and society remain as fractured as ever. As has always been the case, peace and stability in Iraq cannot be enforced militarily, something that worshippers of American military might on the right just can't seem to comprehend.
I'll note again that none of this has anything to do with my original point. But if you want to have a debate on the merits of the surge in Iraq then that's fine, since that only makes clear that 2,000 long word blog posts on "the Diarist" provide absolutely no useful commentary on Iraq at all.
Posted by: Xanthippas at August 14, 2007 04:16 PM (9YWvw)
96
Pablo,
with all due respect, you are making rather a fool of yourself here, and I don't really think SNCS was putting a full effort in. I would advise dropping the Beauchamp thing, at then end of the day its a nothing story that has allready run its course,
Posted by: thecaptian at August 14, 2007 11:14 PM (j1KB/)
97
thecaptain, if that were the case, you wouldn't be here babbling. Thanks for the advice, now cram it.
Posted by: Pablo at August 14, 2007 11:41 PM (yTndK)
98
Ah, Pablo. Now I know where you're getting this connection between O'Hanlon/Pollack and Beauchamp; you've been reading George Packer!
While Packer does have a point, he seems to misunderstand the difference between revealing how Pollack and O'Hanlon came to their conclusions, and fact-checking Beauchamp's claims (only to accept the Army's word on the matter seemingly without question.) And so do you apparently. While O'Hanlon and Pollack were making a disingenous and incomplete argument in favor of our continued presence in Iraq, an argument that deserved critique, Beauchamp was writing about his own personal experiences, as soldiers tend to do in war. Also, Greenwald's case is persuasive, where as the right's case against Beauchamp is not.
Posted by: Xanthippas at August 15, 2007 03:30 PM (9YWvw)
99
Uh, no. I'm not making a connection between the two stories, I'm making a connection between the reaction that you're ridiculing and the one you're swallowing like a scoop of ice cream.
You'll believe what you want to believe and disbelieve what you don't and the truth doesn't mean a frigging thing to you.
Posted by: Pablo at August 15, 2007 05:10 PM (yTndK)
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Rove to Rove
Gee, now who is going to transmit orders to our implants now?
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
06:04 AM
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1
Rumor has it he's going to spend his time debunking anthropogenic global warming. Al Gore is buying a supply of Depends right about now. Heh!
Posted by: daleyrocks at August 13, 2007 08:36 AM (0pZel)
2
Yeah, now he can get in all the BIG BUCKS, ($10,000) that Newsweek is worried about.
Posted by: Tom at August 13, 2007 11:25 AM (z/R8a)
3
You have it completely backwards. Now he has more time to send us transmissions. ;-)
Posted by: MikeM at August 13, 2007 05:41 PM (nyO8l)
4
Well, I get mine transmitted direct from a top-secret chamber beneath Denver International Airport.
Posted by: pst314 at August 13, 2007 09:12 PM (lCxSZ)
5
Go to "YouTube" "Stalingrad" for clip from a movie of the same name. Private Joker watched this between watching "Full Metal Jacket" scenes on the Internet. I'm surprised that nobody has picked this up.The scene is a man, not a dog but the same result. It would also have been impossible!
Posted by: LCDR at August 14, 2007 09:14 AM (VsZGU)
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August 11, 2007
The Right to Remain Silent
It appears that Bill Roggio and I were working parallel paths in running down--or perhaps over--the claims made in The New Republic's latest Scott Beauchamp defense, which consists of failing to take responsibility for their repeated editorial failings, and attempting to blame-shift all their ills on to the Army:
...we continue to investigate the anecdotes recounted in the Baghdad Diarist. Unfortunately, our efforts have been severely hampered by the U.S. Army. Although the Army says it has investigated Beauchamp's article and has found it to be false, it has refused our--and others'--requests to share any information or evidence from its investigation. What's more, the Army has rejected our requests to speak to Beauchamp himself, on the grounds that it wants "to protect his privacy."
But that isn't exactly the truth, is it? The Army has a legal obligation not to release the investigation's findings, with confidentiality being Beauchamp's right. Funny, how
TNR decided not to publish that little detail.
As for who Beauchamp communicates with and why,
Roggio reports:
I recently emailed Col. Steve Boylan asking for whatever information he could provide regarding the status of the investigation of Scott Thomas Beauchamp. Here is his response:
His commands investigation is complete. At this time, there is no formal what we call Uniform Code of Military Justice (UCMJ) actions being taken. However, there are other Administrative actions or what we call Non-Judicial Punishment that can be taken if the command deems appropriate. These are again administrative in nature and as such are not releasable to the public by law.
We are not stonewalling anyone. There are official statements that are out there are on the record from several of us and nothing has changed.
We are not preventing him from speaking to TNR or anyone. He has full access to the Morale Welfare and Recreation phones that all the other members of the unit are free to use. It is my understanding that he has been informed of the requests to speak to various members of the media, both traditional and non-traditional and has declined. That is his right.
We will not nor can we force a Soldier to talk to the media or his family or anyone really for that matter in these types of issues.
We fully understand the issues on this. What everyone must understand is that we will not breach the rights of the Soldier and this is where this is at this point.
I contacted Major Steven Lamb this afternoon to once more ask about about Beauchamp's ability to communicate. You may remember that
five days ago he had stated that:
...the PAO system is only responding to specific inquiries, and little more is expected to be released unless PV-2 Beauchamp decides to discuss the matter further, which he is free to do.
I wanted to check in, to see if that was still the case.
It is:
All Soldiers have access to make morale calls however Beauchamp is not
conducting interviews right now in order to protect his privacy and
rights.
It would appear that Beauchamp has the ability to make calls, but no desire to speak any further with the media at this time, including
The New Republic.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
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1
its just a flesh wound.
...
alright, we'll call it a draw.
For reference watch this youTube clip.
Posted by: scott thomas at August 11, 2007 10:16 PM (YgMQV)
2
In other words, Beauchamp can tell all, but won't.
Only the Army is prohibited from telling all.
I see a future as a Democratic Senator for Beauchamp.
Posted by: GeorgeH at August 11, 2007 10:17 PM (Jkcjv)
3
If he hadn't sworn about his conduct under oath, I'm sure Bochie would be seeking the same kind of privacy that Broadway Joe Wilson and Vanity Flame sought.
TNR has absolutely no reason to be disingenuous at this point. Expecting the stories to be true at this point is about as likely as expecting monkeys to fly out of Foer's ass. Foer seems like a pretty demented character, though, so I would not put that out of the realm of possibilities and liberals kepp claiming colorful and wide ranging sex practices, so you never know. The same sex practices are automatically wrong if engaged in by conservatives, however.
Stop lying TNR.
Posted by: daleyrocks at August 12, 2007 12:38 AM (s468t)
4
Wanna bet TNR burns Beauchamp to save its own skin?
Posted by: Joanne at August 12, 2007 03:16 AM (PWld0)
5
TNR is so dense and ignorant about how the military works they still don't get it.
A formal investigation occurred on the charges Beauchamp levied in his articles. Beauchamp fully recanted and noone else in his unit came forward and said they did occur.
Therefore the Army had no Judicially punishable crimes to investigate/prosecute.
Now they have given back to the unit to work as a Non-Judicial punishment (Article 15) so Beauchamps commander is deciding what to do with him.
Perhaps TNR should fire Foer and higher someone who's at least spent a hitch in the military.
Posted by: Poppy at August 12, 2007 06:48 AM (dJFjD)
6
"Wanna bet TNR burns Beauchamp to save its own skin?
Posted by: Joanne at August 12, 2007 03:16 AM "
I think they already are....they've changed the way they view his truthermusings to "anecdotes". I see that as throwing him underthebus. Its a slow slide while trying to maintain their pride.
Posted by: mrclark at August 12, 2007 08:00 AM (I7ZiZ)
7
This is pretty much the end for TNR. Either they clean it up now or they start to be obviously - and literally - stupid.
There's no more denying. Every single significant thing they've said has been established as false.
Either Beauchamp is lying to TNR about his access to phones or TNR is lying to its readers. My guess is he told his wife they wouldn't let him use the phone, she told TNR, and of course they accepted that without verifying it because, sigh, it reflects poorly on the US military. Sound familiar?
Either Beauchump can use the phone or he can't. The Army says he can and has been able to do so but is refusing interviews. Does anyone think at this point the Army would lie about that? As high profile as this has become?
Because if you think that I have a bridge for sale.
Posted by: DaveW at August 12, 2007 09:05 AM (gL75I)
8
So, SBT can talk to anyone he wants to, but will not talk to TNR.
How about his wife? Is he talking to her, and if so, why would TNR claim he's incommunicado? They've got her right there in the office. They should ask her and then they should tell us.
Or, they should just give it up and start firing people with Foer the first out the door.
Posted by: Pablo at August 12, 2007 09:25 AM (yTndK)
9
If you compare the quote from TNR in HotAir's take-down of their latest defense with the version of it currently on TNR's web page, you'll note the ironic fact that they had to correct Beauchamp's age from 24 to 23. So, in their description of how carefully they've fact-checked everything, they couldn't even get their own source's age correct....
TNR now:
http://www.tnr.com/doc.mhtml?i=w070806&s=editorial081007
TNR then (as I'm sure directly copied-and-pasted by Bryan):
http://hotair.com/archives/2007/08/10/breaking-tnr-returns-serve-re-beauchamp/
Posted by: notropis at August 12, 2007 10:40 AM (DLx0Z)
10
TNR as an institution may have realized early on in this whole fiasco that they'd blown it. Since then, they've been flailing around and stalling for time, balancing their reputation before their subscribers and defenders versus their reputation before the world. They couldn't be seen as going down without a fight merely because people with "ideological agendas" were "smearing" them with "reckless" charges.
People who haven't been paying close attention, who are center-left or left politically, and who don't really want to see a venerable magazine like TNR take another hit, have consistently found excuses for Foer and the rest. Yet we're approaching the last act, which was always destined to be associated with STB's confession. He could have recanted very publically, and could still. Refraining from answering TNR's calls serves a similar purpose: It gives TNR the freedom to cut him loose. Once Foer has cut STB loose, TNR is free to cut Foer loose. It could all happen at once in a single statement from Foer, as hinted at in TNR's last statement, after all of the obfuscations and bad faith pronouncements that have drawn all the attention.
Posted by: CK MacLeod at August 12, 2007 11:04 AM (dvksz)
11
Notropis: 'note the ironic fact that they had to correct Beauchamp's age from 24 to 23. So, in their description of how carefully they've fact-checked everything, they couldn't even get their own source's age correct""
How dare you sir, Beauchamp is in a war and as we all know who actually served, you do not age during wartime. I am sure TNR simply fact checked that and found that time stops in combat and thus, he is still 23. I am tired of these chickenhawks thinking they have some clue about time in a war for heavens sake!
Posted by: Poppy at August 12, 2007 11:52 AM (dJFjD)
12
I think TNR already provided us their defense.
Quote: ""publishing a first-person essay from a war zone requires a measure of faith in the writer.""
FAITH: Belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence.
See, we didn't need, and didn't have, proof or evidence, we had FAITH.
Next will come the ...we 'lost FAITH' in our writer...
Posted by: Poppy at August 12, 2007 11:57 AM (dJFjD)
13
Hmm. One one hand, we have TNR, which has asserted that the Army is preventing Pvt. Beauchamp from speaking with them, because if he did, why, he'd confirm everything that TNR believes to be true and further, would confirm the Army's continuing repression of the truthy--er, truth--of the Army's continuing, er, repression, which is the sole factor preventing TNR from conducting the complete and unbiased reporting of the truthiness--er, truth--for which it has earned such a well-deserved reputation. True, for the Army to do as TNR wishes would violate the law and Beauchamp's privacy, but what's important here? The rule of law and the protection of an individual soldier or journalistic truthiness?
On the other hand, we have a private who has repeatedly shot himself in the foot. Could it be that he doesn't want to keep shooting himself in the foot, for his sake and that of his wife and family, even though the Army refuses to away his rifle and ammunition and refuses to shoot him itself? Not terribly truthy, that, but probably the most likely explanation.
Posted by: Mike at August 12, 2007 01:02 PM (ZQ/66)
14
I am sure Private Beauchamp is spending his time thoroughly documenting the facts behind his claims. Names, dates, places, pictures. You chickenhawks sure will be sorry.
Posted by: FFoer at August 12, 2007 01:59 PM (dJFjD)
15
Of course, what TNR is really saying is that they're pissed that the Army won't violate Beauchamp's rights.
Of course, if the Army did violate Beauchamp's right to privacy, you know how thick the holier-than-thou sanctimony coming out of TNR and the left in general would be.
I daresay the Army is doing the right thing this time by standing behind the law. Makes TNR look like a bunch of whiners... which doesn't really take a lot of effort, since that's what they are.
Posted by: C-C-G at August 12, 2007 08:10 PM (eUgIf)
16
Are these people just gonna deny deny at the expense of all credibility? It's only going to get worse for them if they keep this up.
Show some transparency TNR, maybe even bring a panel to look at your story or something. And to think I was really about to get a subscription to that magazine...
Posted by: Mark E. at August 12, 2007 11:12 PM (W4zkU)
17
UCMJ 101. If his command deciedes to give ex-PFC Beauchamp non judicial punishment for his actions (Article 15):
A. He has the right to request a Court Martial in lieu of an Article 15. Remember the first episode of Band of Brothers (the boring one) where Ross from Friends tries to bust Winters for some BS and he requests a Court Martial. The down side of doing this is that Court Martial punishments are more severe.
B. He has the right to request an open public hearing, where anyone can attend. This is only a request and his command can deny him an open hearing.
As a side note, a command can also DENY a soldier's request for a closed hearing and keep it open. This is tricky because an open hearing could be considered public humiliation, a mitigating factor.
Posted by: BohicaTwentyTwo at August 13, 2007 07:54 AM (oC8nQ)
18
How can Rove quit before he sees this plot to fruition? Bastard.
Posted by: daleyrocks at August 13, 2007 08:30 AM (0pZel)
19
What do you people mean by "TNR is going to throw STB under the bus?" As I see it, it's the other way around. STB told TNR that he stands by his stories and then turns around and recants to the Army. Now he won't talk to TNR at all after they staked their fortunes on his story being true.
It is Scott Thomas Beauchamp who threw TNR under the bus, not the other way around.
Posted by: T.Ferg at August 13, 2007 09:13 AM (2YVh7)
20
Are these people just gonna deny deny at the expense of all credibility?
Sure. It works for AP and Reuters, it will work for them.
Posted by: Purple Avenger at August 13, 2007 09:46 AM (mImtA)
21
Hmmmm.
1. If TNR wishes to have any hope at all of retaining some shred of credibility then TNR is going to have to name the various soldiers who supposedly "corroborated" Beauchamp's various stories.
So far TNR has made it an explicit rule to not identify anyone who has supposedly either corroborated Beauchamp or provided expert opinion, that supposedly corroborated Beauchamp.
2. Since the US military isn't impeding TNR's access to Beauchamp, which I really could see anyways once the investigation is over, then all TNR has to do is get Beauchamp to sign a physical document that states that everything he wrote is true and to post an image of that document, with signature, on the web.
That is the clearest refutation of any possible recantation by Beauchamp that's been rumored.
3. No I don't think that TNR is going to be able to pull this off. I think TNR has gotten in way over it's head and that this stuff won't die down and go away by the time TNR comes back from it's vacation.
So I think the next thing that needs to be discussed by the blogs is just what kind of punishment would be right for this kind of infraction?
Posted by: memomachine at August 13, 2007 02:00 PM (3pvQO)
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August 09, 2007
When Hidden Experts Are Found
Exactly one week ago today on August 2nd, the editors of the magazine The New Republic posted A Statement on Scott Thomas Beauchamp, in which they claimed:
All of Beauchamp's essays were fact-checked before publication. We checked the plausibility of details with experts, contacted a corroborating witness, and pressed the author for further details. But publishing a first-person essay from a war zone requires a measure of faith in the writer. Given what we knew of Beauchamp, personally and professionally, we credited his report. After questions were raised about the veracity of his essay, TNR extensively re-reported Beauchamp's account.
In this process, TNR contacted dozens of people. Editors and staffers spoke numerous times with Beauchamp. We also spoke with current and former soldiers, forensic experts, and other journalists who have covered the war extensively. And we sought assistance from Army Public Affairs officers. Most important, we spoke with five other members of Beauchamp's company, and all corroborated Beauchamp's anecdotes, which they witnessed or, in the case of one solider, heard about contemporaneously. (All of the soldiers we interviewed who had first-hand knowledge of the episodes requested anonymity.)
What is most interesting about the
The New Republic's statement is that while they state they spoke to "dozens of people" in fact-checking their stories, they refused to cite the names of their experts, or explain their qualifications—those qualities that make them experts.
The reasoning behind that purposeful obfuscation is becoming ever more clear with each passing day.
In addition to avoiding the statements made by Army PAOs that Beauchamp's claims were "false" in their totality, and that one claim in particular was the stuff of "urban myth or legend," it appears that one of the experts cited by
The New Republic's editors was not fully appraised of what
TNR was trying to justify in one claim in particular.
The New Republic stated:
The last section of the Diarist described soldiers using Bradley Fighting Vehicles to kill dogs. On this topic, one soldier who witnessed the incident described by Beauchamp, wrote in an e-mail: "How you do this (I've seen it done more than once) is, when you approach the dog in question, suddenly lurch the Bradley on the opposite side of the road the dog is on. The rear-end of the vehicle will then swing TOWARD the animal, scaring it into running out into the road. If it works, the dog is running into the center of the road as the driver swings his yoke back around the other way, and the dog becomes a chalk outline." TNR contacted the manufacturer of the Bradley Fighting Vehicle System, where a spokesman confirmed that the vehicle is as maneuverable as Beauchamp described. Instructors who train soldiers to drive Bradleys told us the same thing. And a veteran war correspondent described the tendency of stray Iraqi dogs to flock toward noisy military convoys.
Once again, no sources were named. That
TNR would not reveal who these sources are who was a decision many interpreted as an attempt by
TNR to keep others from interviewing these same experts. In the paragraph above, TNR mentions that they spoke to a spokesman of the company of manufacturers the Bradley.
Guess what? I did, too.
Doug Coffey is the Head of Communications, Land & Armaments, for BAE Systems, the Bradley IFV's manufacturer that
TNR wouldn't name.
He was indeed contacted by a TNR staffer, but that the questions asked by the researcher were couched in generalities.
Bob, I received your earlier email and wanted to talk to some others about the specific questions you asked. To answer your last question first, yes, I did talk to a young researcher with TNR who only asked general questions about "whether a Bradley could drive through a wall" and "if it was possible for a dog to get caught in the tracks" and general questions about vehicle specifications.
In short, the
TNR researcher did not provide the text of "Shock Troops" for Mr. Coffery to review, and only asked the vaguest possible questions. It seems rather obvious that this was not an attempt to actually verify Beauchamp's claims, but was instead designed to help
The New Republic manufacturer a whitewash of an investigation.
Feeling that a little context was in order, I provided Mr. Coffey with Beauchamp's text from "Shock Troops" related to his company's Bradley IFV:
I know another private who really only enjoyed driving Bradley Fighting Vehicles because it gave him the opportunity to run things over. He took out curbs, concrete barriers, corners of buildings, stands in the market, and his favorite target: dogs. Occasionally, the brave ones would chase the Bradleys, barking at them like they bark at trash trucks in America—providing him with the perfect opportunity to suddenly swerve and catch a leg or a tail in the vehicle's tracks. He kept a tally of his kills in a little green notebook that sat on the dashboard of the driver's hatch.
One particular day, he killed three dogs. He slowed the Bradley down to lure the first kill in, and, as the diesel engine grew quieter, the dog walked close enough for him to jerk the machine hard to the right and snag its leg under the tracks. The leg caught, and he dragged the dog for a little while, until it disengaged and lay twitching in the road. A roar of laughter broke out over the radio. Another notch for the book. The second kill was a straight shot: A dog that was lying in the street and bathing in the sun didn't have enough time to get up and run away from the speeding Bradley. Its front half was completely severed from its rear, which was twitching wildly, and its head was still raised and smiling at the sun as if nothing had happened at all. I didn't see the third kill, but I heard about it over the radio. Everyone was laughing, nearly rolling with laughter. I approached the private after the mission and asked him about it.
"So, you killed a few dogs today," I said skeptically.
"Hell yeah, I did. It's like hunting in Iraq!" he said, shaking with laughter.
"Did you run over dogs before the war, back in Indiana?" I asked him.
"No," he replied, and looked at me curiously. Almost as if the question itself was in poor taste.
Along with the context the
TNR researcher didn't provide, I'd asked a set of questions, including these:
Would a Bradley driver who "took out curbs, concrete barriers, corners of buildings, stands in the market," run a significant risk of damaging the vehicle's track systems? Would such actions also possibly damage the vehicle's armor? Could it have an adverse affect on other crucial vehicle components? Please elaborate as much as possible.
I'd also like to ask you about the claims made by the author as he describes the process of killing three dogs using the tracks of the Bradley IFV. I recognize this is more speculative in nature, but would ask that you comment about the possibility that a Bradley's driver could "jerk the machine hard to the right and snag its leg under the tracks. The leg caught, and he dragged the dog for a little while, until it disengaged and lay twitching in the road."
I don't pretend to be the most mechanically-minded person, but I think that a tracked vehicle such as a Bradley turning "hard to the right" would have a right tread that is either stationary, or nearly so. Is this a correct statement?
If this is a true statement, then it seems the possibility of any animal being run over by a stationary or near stationary track is quite slim. Would you agree with that assessment?
What is the likelihood that a Bradley's track system would "drag a dog for a little while?
Mr. Coffey's response:
I can't pretend to know what may or may not have happened in Iraq but the impression the writer leaves is that a "driver" can go on joy rides with a 35 ton vehicle at will. The vehicle has a crew and a commander of the vehicle who is in charge. In order for the scenario described to have taken place, there would have to have been collaboration by the entire crew.
The driver's vision, even if sitting in an open hatch is severely restricted along the sides. He sits forward on the left side of the vehicle. His vision is significantly impaired along the right side of the vehicle which makes the account to "suddenly swerve to the right" and actually catch an animal suspect. If you were to attempt the same feat in your car, it would be very difficult and you have the benefit of side mirrors.
Anyone familiar with tracked vehicles knows that turning sharply requires the road wheels on the side of the turn to either stop or reverse as the road wheels on the opposite side accelerates. What may not be obvious is that the track once on the ground, doesn't move. The road wheels roll across it but the track itself is stationary until it is pushed forward by the road wheels.
The width of the track makes it highly unlikely that running over a dog would leave two intact parts. One half of the dog would have to be completely crushed.
It also seems suspicious that a driver could go on repeated joy rides or purposefully run into things. Less a risk to the track though that is certainly possible but there is sensitive equipment on the top of the vehicle, antennas, sights, TOW missile launcher, commander and if it was a newer vehicle, the commander's independent viewer, not to mention the main gun. Strange things are known to happen in a combat environment but I can't imagine that the vehicle commander or the unit commander would tolerate repeated misuse of the vehicle, especially any action that could damage its ability to engage.
In other words, BAE System's Head of Communications over the division than manufactures the Bradley IFV was never specifically asked to comment on the claims made in "Shock Troops" by
TNR's legion of fact-checkers.
When he saw the claims made in "Shock Troops," he stated, by citing the physical properties of his company's vehicle, that it is highly unlikely, if not impossible, for the Bradley story told in "Shock Troops" to have been correct.
Once more, we have to question the accuracy and the integrity of
The New Republic's editors, who ran an investigation apparently designed to provide merely cover instead of facts.
Update: I'll be on
Hugh Hewitt's radio show tonight with Dean Barnett after Mark Steyn around 6:20-ish to talk about this, unless I get bumped or something.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
11:34 AM
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1
CY:
Damn you for actually asking fact specific questions. Don't you know that all Conservatives are supposed to be mind-numbed automatons set in motion by Karl Rove codetalk who are strangers to logic and reasoning? Only Liberals are the fearless truthseekers smart enough to question a story. By this action, you are spoiling their romantic narrative and their heroic self image.
What's next, demanding kids actually be able to read and do math in public schools?
Posted by: wjo at August 09, 2007 11:51 AM (2/2Kk)
2
That's going to leave a Bradley-sized mark on half of TNR's face. You know, something that could be covered with a piece of skull.
Posted by: negentropy at August 09, 2007 12:09 PM (27KAF)
3
Great job, CY! That's the kind of "corroboration" I imagined TNR was doing.
Posted by: huxley at August 09, 2007 12:14 PM (8q2Fl)
4
As a former bulldozer operator, I find that the story of the Bradley driver full of holes. As the BAE guy said, to turn a tracked vehicle like the Bradley, one must lock one track or another — depending on the direction of the turn being made ie left track locked to make a right turn and vise versa. From what I understand, it takes more than one person to operate this vehicle and no one in their right mind will participate in a junior high stunt, not if he does not want to risk a court-martial and a possible prison term. I am wondering if Dan Rather and Mary Mapes are on the editorial staff as consultants?
Posted by: stan25 at August 09, 2007 12:16 PM (N1Gru)
5
I worked in the publishing industry for years. I'm not an apologist for TNR--truly I'm not--but in the fact-checker's defense, it is not any publication's policy to hand an entire article over to someone else to verify. It is a fact-checker's job to take the relevant portions of the article and make sure that they are true.
This sounds to me like one of two things: Either the fact-checker was given specific areas to check by his/her editor, or the fact-checker simply isn't that good. If the former, then yes, it's a whitewash. But it's also possible that TNR's fact-checkers really suck. Jonathan Chait's surprise that the Atlantic Monthly actually fact-checks every quote in a story leads me to lean towards the latter. But my gut tells me it's the former.
Posted by: Meryl Yourish at August 09, 2007 12:19 PM (TJeqP)
6
Having also worked in publishing for years, I can say that while we wouldn't provide the complete text of a story, we definetly would provide the relevent section for context, etc. In the case where the question was with something that we're unfamiliar with (such as driving a Bradley) or it's a potentially hot issue/story, we'd be doubly sure. I concurr with Yourish that either the fact-checker was well below standard or TNR was trying to make it look like the did their work when they did not.
Posted by: Neal5x5 at August 09, 2007 12:32 PM (Wxii7)
7
Well researched, well written. Well done.
Posted by: Don at August 09, 2007 12:34 PM (vRDcN)
8
It sounds like Beauchamp is saying they drifted the Bradley into the dog. I'm sure you've seen a car let its back end slide out on a turn before, can a treaded vehicle do that?
Could it do it on dirt roads? It sounds like a no, but I don't really know. Just a thought, I used to run over pedestrians with cars that way in Grand Theft Auto, I'd floor it, then throw the handbrake and turn sharp on a RWD car and run over people with the back end.
Posted by: doubleplusundead at August 09, 2007 12:38 PM (b2h28)
9
I was refering to CY not TNR
Posted by: Don at August 09, 2007 12:40 PM (vRDcN)
Posted by: Warden at August 09, 2007 12:52 PM (rZ5uY)
11
Did you get the name of the reporter who called him?
Posted by: Warden at August 09, 2007 01:00 PM (rZ5uY)
12
Did you get the name of the reporter who called him?
It wasn't his wife (it was a "he"), but that is all I found out.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at August 09, 2007 01:03 PM (0BhZ5)
13
Excellent fact checking, really shows how little effort TNR put into 'fact checking'.
Posted by: shank at August 09, 2007 01:14 PM (+H1yK)
14
I've never driven a Bradley, but I was a qualified driver on the M113 (older, smaller. lighter than the Bradley - see links below). For me, this whole story stunk from the start. While the movement of the vehicle seemed vaguely possible in theory, there's no way it could have happened in practice, certainly not repeatedly. And dogs are generally too wily - those vehicles are LOUD.
Doubleplus - we could skid/drift the M113s on very slippery, wet paved roads, but it was pretty scary and not recommended. Skidding on dirt roads just didn't happen. The Bradly is even heavier than the M113.
M113:
http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/m113.htm
M2 Bradley
http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/m2.htm
Posted by: holdfast at August 09, 2007 01:16 PM (Gzb30)
15
Thank you for keeping this story going. If you let this die easy, we will continue to see Winter Soldier slander stories hit the news again and again.
Without the support of the American public, the sacrifices of our soldiers will be meaningless.
Posted by: adolfo_velasquez at August 09, 2007 01:20 PM (MKDPx)
16
I kinda feel sorry for the fact checker. I'm sure he was trying his best, but really couldn't ask the right questions probably due to the fact that he probably didn't know a single thing about the military or military equipment.
He asked, "if it was possible for a dog to get caught in the tracks" but the real question he should have asked was "if it was possible for a dog to get caught in the tracks and be dragged for some distance." You asked the right question, so if you are ever looking for a job, think about becomming a fact checker for a left wing rag with a penchant for fabrication.
Posted by: BohicaTwentyTwo at August 09, 2007 01:21 PM (oC8nQ)
17
Posted by: doubleplusundead at August 9, 2007 12:38 PM
To answer your question. You can't really make any sudden movement of a tracked vehicle, especially an IFV (Infantry Fighting Vehicle), without slinging everything and everyone inside of it around. It is not something that is appreciated by the occupants in the rear. It can also lead to damage or destruction of the vehicle. The last thing you want is be stuck with a disabled vehicle in the middle of somewhere that would open you up for attack. And if that occurred because of childish behavior the person doing it would have more to worry about then possibly being held responsible for the damages to the vehicle. When it is a matter of life and death, not the video game type either, peoples attitudes tend to sour real quick when somebody engages in activities that places others at risk.
You want to mess around with your own life fine, buy a crotch rocket and head down the autobahn at 200 MPH but leave me out of it.
Posted by: Just A Grunt at August 09, 2007 01:25 PM (KbC+n)
18
Is it possible that the "squadmates" who supposedly corroborated Beauchamp's lies for TNR did so by email, and were in fact sock puppets of Beauchamp himself?
Posted by: Korla Pundit at August 09, 2007 01:26 PM (FHlAi)
19
Hmmm.
@ doubleplusundead
APCs, even wheeled APCs, aren't all that maneuverable. Cars are designed to be maneuverable, nimble and quick. APCs are designed to protect their passengers and win fights.
I've never driven a tracked vehicle before but I have driven wheeled APCs quite often. You can put them into a slide, where the rear end slides out from behind and rotates the vehicle, but it's extremely dangerous to do so. In part because you the driver has just lost control over a multi-ton vehicle. If you're on a crowded street or road then it's likely you're going to hammer someone's personal car into junk or run over a pedestrian. If you're in combat then you've just made your vehicle and it's passengers a nice big fat target.
In either case it's a very bad idea.
Another big problem is that cars have a relatively low center of gravity. Armored vehicles, because of the missions they are designed for, need to have high road clearance and carry a lot of stuff. The Bradley is around 14' tall. You start trying to slide that vehicle and you'll have a very good chance of flipping it, and that's a deadly proposition.
Honestly even if a Bradley could slide you'd have to be completely out of your mind to even try it. And if you survived trying to slide the Bradley, your vehicle commander would probably stake you to the front of it and drive it himself back to base.
Posted by: memomachine at August 09, 2007 01:31 PM (3pvQO)
20
Cool, I was just throwing that out there, because that's the only thing I could think of reading Beauchamp's description. I always read it as Beauchamp saying they drifted the Bradley. I could totally see him ripping that concept from GTA, given how most of his stories sound like crappy rips from movies and books anyway.
Posted by: doubleplusundead at August 09, 2007 01:41 PM (b2h28)
21
Doubleplusungood's comments about GTA are important: this is the way you drive in a video game, not how you drive in real life. You can screw around somewhat like this in an empty field or a vast wet/snow covered parking lot, but it's not what you do driving down the road, even if you're a hormone addled teenager.
I've been in more than a few spins in high-school (only one wreck), and they were really, really not fun. It's not something that you intentionally do as you're driving, but it is fun to do when you're in a deserted area. I still love to swing the rear end around on heavy snow days when the streets are empty, but you can only do this in real life under a very limited set of circumstances. Those of us who survive highschool driving realise that spins and flips in cars are only fun to WATCH, not live through!
STB needs to have his GTA III: San Andreas privileges revoked, along with access to his laptop. Great to see some real fact checking going on!
Posted by: Hey at August 09, 2007 01:44 PM (WtzFf)
22
Korla,
I smell a sock-puppet, too. The emailer is not your average grunt but a writer or aspiring writer. The email is full of red flags. For example:'The driver swings his yoke... and the dog becomes a chalk outline.'
I'm not calling it proof. I'm saying that if Franklin Foer had an iota of real-world experience, that email would have worried him rather than satisfied him.
Posted by: lyle at August 09, 2007 01:57 PM (TM67q)
23
First, anyone who has ever ended up topside down in a car (it wasn't my fault, honest) and survives can tell you that you never, ever really want to do that again, and you in all probability get serious about not doing anything that might cause it. It is not, I repeat, not, fun.
Second, my experience over the past almost 20 years with journalism majors (lots of them take poli sci courses -- the easy ones) leads me to believe that most of them are just pig-ignorant of a great deal of the real world and real world physics. I'm surprised some of them can figure out how to put gas in their car let alone drive it well enough to qualify as adequate (but then I'm in Michigan). The j-majors (and especially grad school j-majors) apparently, on average, couldn't hang a picture without doing serious damage to walls, the picture, and various thumbs and fingers. They are severely deficient in understanding the physical world around them.
Thus, I am willing to believe that the 'fact checker' from TNR was just an ignorant j-major working down the food chain at TNR. Unfortunately, the odds of this person improving are pretty much nil.
Posted by: JorgXMcKie at August 09, 2007 02:02 PM (OIFDa)
24
Really, that's the best part of GTA: driving and sliding around on the sidewalks/citizens...
Posted by: Mr. Bingley at August 09, 2007 02:04 PM (jii9y)
25
I'm sure you've seen a car let its back end slide out on a turn before, can a treaded vehicle do that?
If you watch the opening minutes of "The Day the Earth Stood Still" you'll see a tracked vehicle do exactly that. But, as "holdfast" described, it's on a hard, wet surface. I'm sure he's right that it's virtually impossible to do it on a soft surace. The tracks would dig in and, rather than slide, you'd just flip.
Posted by: Tedd McHenry at August 09, 2007 02:08 PM (DAdMn)
26
You try to do that with an APC or IFV repeatedly and you WILL throw a track, sooner or later. In the middle of Indian country. Sounds like my idea of fun...
Posted by: richard mcenroe at August 09, 2007 02:08 PM (hXDBW)
27
Having driven an Abrams MBT and Bradleys, I can tell you that it's not possible to drive a tracked vehicle in the manner described. Driving buttoned up means you can't see squat. You rely on your vehicle commander a LOT. There's no way in hell you're going to swerve right and hit a dog. Bradleys and M1's are friggin loud... no dog is going to lay still and get killed.
Bottom line, Beauchump is a liar. And the TNR are turds. Turds for publishing that crap. Turds for not verifying that crap. And now they are Turds for covering up their negligence.
Someone ought to get canned.
Posted by: Cro at August 09, 2007 02:11 PM (6FGjB)
28
From what I understand, it takes more than one person to operate this vehicle and no one in their right mind will participate in a junior high stunt, not if he does not want to risk a court-martial and a possible prison term.
Just like no soldiers in their right minds would drag a crippled innocent man out of his bed, march him a half mile, and the shoot him in the head four times and leave his body in a shallow grave.
Or invade a house and rape a fourteen year-old Iraqi girl and then burn her body to hide the evidence.
But kill a dog with a Bradley? Never.
Posted by: tbogg at August 09, 2007 02:19 PM (n+/Jk)
29
tbogg makes a play for the 'soldiers have done bad things before, so all allegations of bad things against troops, no matter how outlandish and no matter how impossible or improbable, must be considered to be absolutely the truth' angle.
Let's watch and see if it works...
Posted by: Enigmaticore at August 09, 2007 02:25 PM (pjusE)
30
tbogg,
There's a difference between "could" and "would," really, look it up.
Even if the soldier in the story would have run over dogs in a Bradley, the fact is, he couldn't. It's not possible to do what STB claims.
Look up red herring while your at it.
Posted by: Old at August 09, 2007 02:28 PM (JQwWt)
31
IFV's can slide but not in the manner described. You have to accelerate to full speed and pivot turn. The slide is short-lived. I have seen it done and been an IFV that has performed the manuever. We did it on the way to a range. The following conditions are a must. NO dismount vehicle occupants. No equipment inside. Gravel on a paved road (generally at an intersection). No other traffic or vehicles. And ABSOLUTELY no roadside obstructions. A curb, stump, or any other rigid obstruction would snap/break a road wheel or track or both.
To be blunt - there is no way in Heaven or on Earth to perform the manuever in the manner described. The vehicles are LOUD. Really loud. Dogs are not going to wait around or be lured near the vehicles.
As the manufacturer rep explained, the driver cannot see beyond the midline front of the vehicle. His position is front-left and low.
So much is factually wrong with the story that it is laughable.
Posted by: SSG Collins at August 09, 2007 02:30 PM (yJoBH)
32
stan25 said: "left track locked to make a right turn and vise versa."
it seemeth to me that to turn right in a tracked vehicle, the RIGHT track must either stop, slow down(compared to the left) or reverse.
NO?
Posted by: quasimodo at August 09, 2007 02:32 PM (SGrjU)
33
"...slinging everything and everyone inside..."
The inside of a Bradley (or any AFV) is a hard metal wall with stuff bolted to it -- radio cases, racks for supplies and equipment, etc. It's very unforgiving, not at all like the padded interior of a car. The one time I rode in a Bradley, I took a modest slosh as the driver crossed a culvert at low speed, banged my shin on a metal box of some sort, and got a bone bruise that took weeks to heal. In addition to the hazards in the vehicle itself, you have other people inside with loaded rifles and kevlar helmets, so having someone fall on you is a huge hazard.
So beyond whether it's physically possible to do this once, there's the question of whether it's socially possible to do it repeatedly. If I'd had any notion that the driver took that dip deliberately, he would have wound up hurting more than I did. Much more.
Posted by: Texpatriate at August 09, 2007 02:37 PM (PGzrn)
34
This may be completely off the mark, but doubleplusundead's thought that maybe Beauchamp had picked up the idea for the move from GTA finally focused something that's been nagging in my head since the first time I read that story about the Bradley.
A guy in a vehicle, tear-assing across the countryside, having fun killing whatever gets in his way. I kept thinking that I'd seen it before somewhere, and I couldn't figure out where.
Get it off the ground and put it in the air. In the movie Full Metal Jacket, Pvt. Joker is being transported by helicopter to a combat zone. There's a doorgunner having a grand old time machine-gunning water buffalo on the ground, much to Joker's horror.
Sounds like the same type of guy, same attitude, same personality.
Could this scene be Beauchamp's inspiration?
Posted by: Rick at August 09, 2007 02:42 PM (Ku8DX)
35
The left clings to its lies. It cannot let them go. It clings to the lie that John Kerry was a true war hero who was "smeared," when the facts show he schemed to get back to the safety of a state-side desk job. It clings to the lie that Cheney and Rove conspired to punish the Wilsons for telling the truth about Iraq and Niger, when the facts show that the outing of Valerie Plame came from an opponent of the Iraq war (Richard Armitage) and that Joe Wilson lied about what his so-called investigation revealed, and even lied about how he was chosen for it. And now, it will cling to this lie. Desperately. It will keep telling this lie (that the Iraq war has "dehumanized" the brave soldiers who are fighting it) until it becomes the acknowledged substitute for the truth.
Keep plugging away with the facts. Don't let this myth live along with the Kerry and Wilson myths.
Posted by: Jim O'Sullivan at August 09, 2007 02:44 PM (6+o02)
36
From my own experience with tracked vehicles I would judge that "pvt" Beauchamp has been in such a protected position that he has never actually seen a tracked vehicle in operation, but he certainly should get an A+ for imagination.
Posted by: Bill Brown at August 09, 2007 02:56 PM (eDH8U)
37
Hey, can't you guys give tbogg the benefit of the the doubt? The way I understand it he'd signed enlistment papers to fight the just and true war on terror in Afghanistan, under Jesus General's command no less, but too many other liberals had gotten there before him. It was only his sense of pride and honor that kept him from joining up to fight the illegal war in Iraq. True story, I heard if from one of the guys in line with him.
Posted by: scott thomas at August 09, 2007 02:57 PM (CQcil)
38
But back to the story at hand.
I might have gotten a couple of the details mixed up. I've tried to better clarify things here. I'd log in and post at TNR, but can't get in for some reason.
I sure hope Frank isn't too mad at me.
Posted by: scott thomas at August 09, 2007 02:59 PM (CQcil)
39
Let's make sure that wikipedia stays fixed. I just added a paragraph at the bottom to reflect the contents of this post.
Posted by: DaveS at August 09, 2007 03:04 PM (1R6cr)
40
"maybe Beauchamp had picked up the idea for the move from GTA"
Yes, and he also picked up the "square backed Glock rounds" from CSI.
You know, I am certain that at some point, some soldier hit a dog with their Bradley. I wouldn't even put it beneath a sick soldier to keep count of how many times it happened. Its just that there's no physical way for it to happen the way ex-PFC Beauchamp dscribed it.
Oh and another thing, how do you get "a roar of laughter" over a radio? Think about it...
Posted by: BohicaTwentyTwo at August 09, 2007 03:14 PM (oC8nQ)
41
Trivia puzzling me: Aren't dogs, like pigs, unclean to Muslims? How many of them are running around as Bradley targets in Iraq anyway?
Posted by: mister1111 at August 09, 2007 03:52 PM (4Y7Z/)
42
Oh fer' christ sakes TBogg you idiot, are you 3 years old? Please don't hurt yourself as you strain to turn Beauchamp's wimsy into your version of "reality".
Posted by: MisterPundit at August 09, 2007 03:52 PM (Rlz4c)
43
tbogg has a point. We can tell Beauchamp is lying because TNR has had lying reporters in the past...see how easy that was...no actual intellectual argument on the facts is required.
The whole real pint tbogg is that YES, sometimes bad people join the Army, beauchamp and the rapist you speak of prove that. TNRs attempted point was that the Army makes rapists and dog killers out of perfectly normal people.
Posted by: Poppy at August 09, 2007 04:22 PM (dJFjD)
44
Either the fact-checker was given specific areas to check by his/her editor, or the fact-checker simply isn't that good. If the former, then yes, it's a whitewash.
The former theory -- that the fact-checker deliberately tailored his questions in order to elicit the least-unfavorable responses from the "corroborating expert" -- is, to my mind, given credence by the fact that it took TNR a full week to figure out that the Burned Woman had been in Kuwait, not at Falcon FOB in Iraq.
It would appear that in the course of their rigorous "re-reporting," TNR had never put to Beauchamp such simple, straightforward, fact-checking questions as: "Are you certain that you saw the Burned Woman in the 'chow hall' of Falcon FOB, and not at another location?"
Posted by: Throbert McGee at August 09, 2007 04:55 PM (rv3/E)
45
Jim O'Sullivan: Keep plugging away with the facts. Don't let this myth live along with the Kerry and Wilson myths.
Hell, I still run into people, on-line and off, misrepresenting Bush's 16 words during the SOTU as being based on that forged nigerian document.
Anyone care for a serving of plastic turkey? How many YEARS did it take to finally kill off that left-wing shibboleth?
Posted by: Mike L at August 09, 2007 04:57 PM (6xL4n)
46
"This sounds to me like one of two things: Either the fact-checker was given specific areas to check by his/her editor, or the fact-checker simply isn't that good. "
I think it goes beyond that - unlike, say, financial or sports reporting, a lot of people who are writing about the war don't actually seem to know much, if anything, about the military. Even if they want to be accurate (which is debatable), they are highly susceptible to others manipulating them.
I see similar things among my professors, as well; people who are so sure that they are educated and enlightened, that they don't know they're totally ignorant because they don't really believe they could be.
In the case of many journalists, we seem to be looking at a congruence of bias, laziness, and incompetence.
Posted by: Tim in PA at August 09, 2007 05:09 PM (XP0Ie)
47
Meryl says: ""I worked in the publishing industry for years. I'm not an apologist for TNR--truly I'm not--but in the fact-checker's defense, it is not any publication's policy to hand an entire article over to someone else to verify. ""
That's might be true if the article hasn't been published yet. BUT, we are talking about an article that had already been published weeks earlier.
There certainly wasn't any reason at that point to not send the guy the article so he knew what he was commenting on and what TNR was trying to defend.
Posted by: Poppy at August 09, 2007 05:09 PM (dJFjD)
48
Forget the Bradley specs for a sec. How does a Private, the lowest rank in the Army, do what he pleases with a multi-million dollar piece of equiptment which puts everyone in the convoy at risk(slowing down, IED's, that sort of thing), and have every higher ranking soldier "laughing, nearly rolling with laughter"? I served in the Army. I've been in trouble a few trivial matteers. I can't imagine anyone in a position of responsibilty not recommending this private for courtmartial.
Posted by: Marty at August 09, 2007 05:39 PM (ys0Eo)
49
I POSTED THIS ON SOME OTHER SITES AS SOON AS THE SCOTT THOMAS STORY STARTED TO BECOME A CONTROVERSY. THE STORY ABOUT THE DOG IS MADE UP. ALTHOUGH I'VE NEVER DRIVEN A BRADLEY I USED TO BE A TANK CREWMAN SO I KNOW A LITTLE ABOUT HOW TRACKED VEHICLES WORK. THE PART OF THE TRACK IN CONTACT WITH THE GROUND WILL BARELY MOVE IN RELATION TO THE GROUND UNLESS YOU ARE DOING A NEUTRAL STEER (WITH THE VEHICLE AT A HALT TURNING THE VEHICLE ON ITS AXIS WITH THE TRACKS SLIDING ACROSS THE GROUND IN OPPOSITE DIRECTIONS) OR A TURN AT VERY LOW SPEED. EVEN IF YOU COULD STEER A BRADLEY ACCURATELY AND QUICKLY ENOUGH TO RUN OVER A DOG RUNNING NEXT TO THE VEHICLE AND SOMEHOW GET JUST THE DOG'S LEG CAUGHT BY THE TRACK WITHOUT CRUSHING THE WHOLE DOG THERE IS VIRTUALLY NO WAY YOU COULD DRAG A DOG DOWN THE ROAD WITH THE VEHICLE. THE DOGS LEG WOULD MOST LIKELY BE CAUGHT BETWEEN THE TRACK AND THE ROAD OR THE ROAD-WHEEL AND THE TRACK AND WOULD BE PULVERIZED/AMPUTATED. IF IT WASNT FULLY AMPUTATED OR SOMEHOW GOT LODGED BETWEEN TRACK PADS (VERY UNLIKELY, THE SPACE IS TOO SMALL) THE DOG WOULDNT BE DRAGGED BUT WOULD BE PINNED IN PLACE BY THE PART OF THE TRACK IN CONTACT WITH THE ROAD (WHICH DOES NOT MOVE IN RELATION TO THE ROAD) UNTIL THE TRACK REACHED THE REAR OF THE VEHICLE AT WHICH TIME IF THE LEG WAS STILL STUCK TO THE TRACK THE ANIMAL WOULD BE FLUNG INTO THE AIR AS THE TRACK WENT AROUND THE IDLER WHEEL. IF THE LEG SOMEHOW REMAINED ATTACHED TO THE TRACK AFTER THAT (EXTREMELY UNLIKELY) IT WOULD IMMEDIATELY BE AMPUTATED BY THE TRACK SKIRT THAT COVERS THE UPPER PART OF THE TRACK AND BEGINS IMMEDIATELY IN FRONT OF THE IDLER. THE ONLY WAY A BRADLEY COULD DRAG A DOG ALONG THE ROAD WOULD BE FOR IT TO GET SOMEHOW CAUGHT ON THE TRACK SKIRT. THE DOG WOULD HAVE TO BE FAIRLY LARGE AS THE BOTTOM OF THE SKIRT IS PROBABLY 2 FEET FROM THE GROUND. THIS IS UNLIKELY AS THERE IS NOT MUCH THAT PROTRUDES FROM THE SKIRT THAT COULD CATCH AN ANIMAL FOR OBVIOUS REASONS AS ANY PROTRUDING FIXTURE WOULD BE LIKELY TO GET CAUGHT ON TREES AND OTHER STUFF THE VEHICLE WAS DRIVING THROUGH AND EITHER COLLECT DEBRIS ON THE SIDE OF THE VEHICLE OR THE FIXTURES WOULD BE TORN FROM THE VEHICLE.
Posted by: CHRIS at August 09, 2007 06:01 PM (hmVa5)
50
tbogg,
Get a grip. The reason that many called BS on Scotty Von Munchausen's tales is not because all soldiers are angels. My team certainly weren't.
But Scotty's stories -- like those of many who have later been proven to be BS artists -- demonstrate mistakes in the small details. Little things -- like physics -- add together and tell me he wasn't there, or it didn't happen that way, or both. And if it didn't happen as described, and it's inflammatory, it's reasonable to infer that it didn't happen at all.
When you mess up one story, it's not a big deal. But when each of your stories has significant holes in it, it's a con. It's Baron Von Munchausen.
As I posted elsewhere, if someone in Iraq emailed me that, despite being counseled several times, PFC Snarglepuss kept going to the dump with a captured AK47 and shooting dogs, I'd have little reason to doubt it. Because there's nothing difficult to believe about it:
a. bored GI's are dangerous
b. if there's no rats to shoot (anyone else have 'rat hunting' stories to tell ? Trade ya!), dogs will do fine in many third-world countries. Many countries do NOT share our ASPCA feelings for Lassie.
c. 7.62 x 39 mm ammo is probably not inventoried. Note that Snarglepuss is NOT consuming nor abusing US military equipment (which does happen, but is punished when identified).
d. Not sure that there's anything in the UCMJ to prevent it. If the locals don't care, why should Uncle Sam ?
e. Unless you go at the same time each day, it does not appear to be stupid tactically -- i.e. it won't get you killed. (never been to Iraq, maybe it is stupid, but it doesn't strike me that way at first glance)
But that's not what Scotty wrote about. He wrote of doing odd things, in an exceedingly unlikely manner, repeatedly.
The Brad didn't just squash a dog (a very possible event, especially one sick or already dead), the driver swerved to hit it. It probably didn't occur to Scotty that 24-ton vehicles don't do donuts really well. It probably didn't occur to Scotty that if anyone inside the Brad got nailed by an unsecured .50 cal ammo can, the Brad would come back in with the now-former-driver fastened to its glacis with 100-mile-an-hour tape. (In peacetime, everything inside a Brad is probably squared away, but I suspect that's rare in theater) It probably didn't occur to Scotty that a dog corpse might make a dandy IED, and that the idea of running one over would not only be cruel (he might not care), it could prove to be tactically stupid. And if so, that would be unforgivable. I may not care if you squash Lassie, but getting my *ss blown up cranks me right off.
In summary, Scotty wrote an event that -- in Iraq -- was not credible in the manner described. It does read like a story of squashing a sick dog, as told by GI 1 to GI 2. GI 2 then adds "smashing down the stalls," and passes it on to GI 3. GI 3 adds another fantasy event, and passes it on as well. GI 4, who's never even seen a Bradley up on the honk, adds in the "swerve" and recounts it to Scotty, who writes it up and passes it on as something he saw himself.
(My friend Curtis used to work in the 9th SRW with SR-71 aircraft. He used to truly enjoy the fantastic stories told by folks not in the 9th about the birds and what the purportedly could do. He said "If half of the stories were true, Lockheed would have freaking anti-gravity by now.")
Similarly, the "chow-hall" incident is embellished beyond reasonableness. A young, stupid, uncaring *sshole might mutter under his breath. But Scotty says they couldn't tell if she was military and that someone still mouthed off loud enough to be heard. And was uncaring.
Setting aside the (large) problems with "couldn't tell if she was military," even young enlisted know better than to gratuitously and openly insult someone who might outrank you. Or who might be friends with someone who might outrank you. Maybe even by A Lot. Or to mouth off openly in the sometimes-PC environment of a DFAC. It's not merely the cruelty of the act, it's contra-survival for a young enlisted. Even if she was not military, and didn't know an O-6 to take her complaint to, Lt. Inyourbusiness (sitting at the next table) might take offense and decide to make an example of you. However crude you might want to be, you learn long before your first deployment to watch your mouth around strangers. Or you get an LOR or two and then you learn.
None of this may matter to the reader (or editor) that implicitly believes their stereotypes of the "ugly brutes" in the military, so I won't continue at length. But I will leave with one thought.
In the truly-stellar movie "Ronin," there is a character named Spence, played by Sean Bean. He is a "bad-*ss wannabe" who is telling tall tales, claiming to have served with the 22nd Regiment (the British SAS). Robert Di Nero plays Sam, who is also not who exactly he says he is, but has certainly seen the elephant. As Spence is blustering his idea (that will get everyone killed), Sam has had enough. He confronts Spence, and asks one question: "What color is the boathouse at Herefordshire ?"
Spence tries to bluff beyond it, but Sam hammmers at it over and over, verbally pounding on him until Spence finally is forced to admit he was never SAS -- he made it all up. (I think Spence was military, just not SAS.)
But the best line comes just after. I believe it was Vincent (Jean Reno) who then asks Sam "What color is the boathouse at Herefordshire ?"
Sam's answer is "How the **** should I know ?" He never knew, but he could smell BS when little things didn't add up.
It's not always the big things that trip wannabes up. I could ask someone one question: "how many points did you start with in training ?" and know immediately if they had the T-shirt.
Posted by: 1charlie2 at August 09, 2007 06:25 PM (pDkg5)
51
So, does all this mean we get a sequel to the excellent (from a sceptics point of view) film "Shattered Glass"?
Posted by: glenn at August 09, 2007 06:44 PM (iuBPg)
52
So, does all this mean we get a sequel to the excellent (from a sceptics point of view) film "Shattered Glass"?
The Shattered Glass 2: Doubting Thomas fake-DVD PhotoShop has already been done.
And I second the endorsement of Shattered Glass, by the way -- coincidentally, I'd watched it for the first time less than a week before the "Scott Thomas" controversy broke, and if anything, the movie made me initially more sympathetic to TNR's editors.
Posted by: Throbert McGee at August 09, 2007 07:07 PM (rv3/E)
53
I'm a former Cavalry officer. I commanded a Bradley platoon. The dog-killing, as described, is completely impossible. First of all, the driver's vision is restricted, and you can't see immediately in front of you, and nothing to the sides. You rely on your commander for that, who sits up higher. Even his view is limited, which is why it's so dangerous for civilian kids to get too close when begging for candy.
And the vehicle rides on its tracks. This may sound confusing to someone unfamiliar with tracked vehicles, but the tracks don't move. You don't catch anything under your tracks. You throw your track forward, and then drive over it on your road wheels. Sounds confusing, but obvious once you've seen it.
And if you did lay track on top of a dog, you'd leave nothing but a bloody patch on the ground, not a severed half. The vehicle is way too heavy for a dog.
So you can't see a dog to hit it. And you can't roll over it, because the tracks don't move. And there wouldn't be much left if you did. Try this in your car -- black out the side windows, eliminate all mirrors, and don't use your brakes. How many dogs can you hit?
This story is pure anti-military slander.
That said, the Bradley is a hell of a lot of fun to drive.
Posted by: John Shephard at August 09, 2007 08:17 PM (PIYeL)
54
I propose the Tbogg Rule: If an accusation is possible, that proves it happened; if an accusation is impossible, well, you're a wingnut.
Posted by: Jim Treacher at August 09, 2007 08:33 PM (0jtcT)
55
Is this a Bradley?
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=550_1179995477&p=1
I still think Beauchamp is full of it regardless of any wet pavement shenanigans by these guys.
And a doffing of the hat to Throbert, good luck out there.
Posted by: Bob in Houston at August 09, 2007 09:19 PM (23bmr)
56
Those that would are probably dead now because the dumb ones die first.
Barry,
Sometimes it doesn't matter how smart you are. I knew a couple of pretty smart guys who didn't make it back. Just sayin'
Posted by: Stashiu3 at August 09, 2007 09:25 PM (3oP4o)
57
Where could a private, such as Beauchamp, sit in a Bradley so that he could even SEE a dog get severed? Is that even possible?
Posted by: Holmes at August 09, 2007 09:25 PM (1jhTo)
58
The Bradley has less than 10 PSI ground preasure. Unless there was some object on the ground, it would make a puppy pancake. It would not cut the dog in half.
Every one here who has driven track vehicles of any type know that what Scott claims is pure BS. Its nearly impossible to get them to slide due to the low preasure. You have just too much area on the ground. Couple that with the high center of gravity, and you have a recipe for disaster. Generally when a track flips, two people die, the driver and the T-C.
Some one mentioned 100mph tape to the glasis plate. I've heard of bad drivers getting taped to a tent pole stuck in a .50 mount, and of Tankers sticking a POS in the travel lock and firing up the smoke generator (on an M-60 series).
Posted by: Jeremy at August 09, 2007 10:02 PM (dFShz)
59
mister1111,
There are a surprising number of feral dogs that just roam around Baghdad - I cannot comment on all of Iraq because I was only around the capital. I also wonder why if they are so unclean, they just don't eliminate them. My overall feeling is that they are probably like rats in our urban areas and they just cant find them fast enough to get them all. I can say though that I never saw one being treated fondly by a local.
Posted by: TJ at August 09, 2007 11:05 PM (WXgSS)
60
I held every position on a Bradley over my 6 years in the Army. I started as a dismount, moved to driver, then gunner and spent my last 2.5 years as a BC. A driver can't see his tracks. For the most part he can't see the ground from his left and right front tracks out to about 4 feet on either side and he can't see anything behind his hatch which is about 4/5 the length of the vehicle.
Even if a driver ran over a dog, no one on the vehicle would ever know it unless the BC turned around and looked behind the vehicle and saw the remains laying in the road. If my driver ever started jerking the vehicle all over the road or ran into buildings or curbs I'd personally kick his ass. The vehicle has such a rough ride, especially at slow speeds, I wouldn't stand for the my driver making it even more jerky.
It didn't happen. Funny how TNR refuses to just call the guy a liar and get it over with.
Posted by: K. Anderson at August 09, 2007 11:06 PM (bs0dv)
61
Poppy, it really doesn't matter that the article has been published. Standard industry policy is that a fact-checker does not hand over the text of an article. S/he checks the facts of the article.
Or not, as the case may be.
Posted by: Meryl Yourish at August 09, 2007 11:29 PM (TJeqP)
62
Wow. Good retorts people. It makes me want to wait for more TNR lies to watch you guys rip em apart again. Keep up the good work.
Posted by: Jon Brooks at August 09, 2007 11:44 PM (IU/8f)
63
Wow!
Thanks CY, and to those with all the first hand details about how the Bradley actually operates. I knew nothing of how they did until I read this thread and I was wondering, thank you.
Also wouldn't others in the Bradley object to this wanton slaughter of these dogs? I would think that IF someone tried this once he/she would be smacked by his peers. Not too many people will tolerate cruelty to animals, no matter what.
What I do know a little about is feral dogs from living in Greece for a short time. Very quickly I noticed how 'street' 'car' and 'people' smart these dogs (and cats) become. Rarely did I see one killed on the roads. And we traveled many roads and were there for several months. I fed every..., well almost everyone I came across, cats too.
In regards to the tails being caught in the track, well... even the most pampered pet will move their tail with even a light touch, these feral animals are even more cautious and wary. With all the information I read above the dog would have had to have his butt perpendicular to the track to get it's tail stuck in it, no? I can see them running and being aggressive or excited and on occasion being run over or struck by a part of the vehicle perhaps, but to get themselves caught up butt first and by the tail from a maneuver of a heavy machine like a Bradley, just doesn't make sense at all IMHO.
(No problem on the posting delays, I despise spammers as well.)
Posted by: ldd at August 10, 2007 12:02 AM (60TUG)
64
i think everything about this story falls apart with the aparent victim. the dog..... what dog would ever be drawn to a loud vehicle...especially stray dogs..you cant even get close to them.
totally ridiculous.
Posted by: thedogg at August 10, 2007 01:01 AM (S5Xod)
65
Hey Charles, just what part of this post are we relying on Matt Sanchez?
It appears you and TNR fear Matt Sanchez. As soon as he got to FOB Falcon, BAM! TNR moves the melted women into Kuwait.
And if gay/semi-gay people are not to be believed by the left, I certainly didn't hear that in the
gay/Lesbian/trangender debate.
Posted by: Poppy at August 10, 2007 06:20 AM (dJFjD)
66
poppy, I deleted Charles' pathetic strawman. Sanchez is doing good work, but it is separate from this, and irrelevant.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at August 10, 2007 06:27 AM (HcgFD)
67
Rick
Get it off the ground and put it in the air. In the movie Full Metal Jacket, Pvt. Joker is being transported by helicopter to a combat zone. There's a doorgunner having a grand old time machine-gunning water buffalo on the ground, much to Joker's horror.
Sounds like the same type of guy, same attitude, same personality.
Could this scene be Beauchamp's inspiration?
The door gunner in that scene is gunning down women and children in a a rice paddy - and utters a memorable line while Rafter Man gags;
Joker: How do you shoot women .. children?
Gunner: Easy - you just don't lead 'em as much. Ha ha!
Maybe. You'd think the pilot would ask his crew chief what-in-the-hell he's shooting at ...
I don't recall that scene from the book - but in the book there is a scene where a tank - an M48? - runs over a water buffalo and a child. The TC is irked at the driver, explains to the protagonist that grandpa is upset at the water bull and wants reparations and isn't so upset about the child.
I like the movie just fine, loved the book because it was by former Marine Gus Hasford and it's a well written novel. But it's not a memoir - it's more in the realm of fantasy.
Posted by: Brian at August 10, 2007 06:44 AM (m6cIv)
68
Liberals are big into the SO WHAT about TNR and Beauchamp, because they don't want you to think about what it really says about TNR.
When I first read Beauchamps first article I could tell it didn't ring true, it was to pat a story. Then reading all three I knew the guy was lying, then reading his blog I figured why he was lying.
Yet, through all those months the editors and reporters at TNR were gullible, ignorant or stupid enough to print what he wrote. They were punked by a young, ignorant college drop out, writer wanna-be.
If they can be so badly misled by one of their own, what does it say about their intelligence, their thoughfulnes about foriegn policies like Iraq?
Do they want their subscribers to know their staff was that ignorant, do people want to pay for such incompetence each month? And how many other things got past them? How bad was their judgement, their editing, their research on other subjects?
Should they be advertising, come to TNR, we make up stories that will fit your world view and make you feel superior (Fact checking optional).
Posted by: Poppy at August 10, 2007 07:17 AM (dJFjD)
69
I believe TNR is rightly frightened by memory of the Literery Digest, a magazine that called the 1936 election so bad [they relied on a telephone poll back when democrats were less likely to have phones] it went under.
Posted by: Walter E. Wallis at August 10, 2007 07:28 AM (eExw5)
70
"poppy, I deleted Charles' pathetic strawman. Sanchez is doing good work, but it is separate from this, and irrelevant."
Charles is obsessed with Sanchez, and has certainly drawn the conclusion that by deleting his comment, you are too. If fact, it means you're in lust with him, as well as complicit in his vast conspiracy.
Charles is quite insane. Pay him no mind unless insanity interests you.
Posted by: Pablo at August 10, 2007 07:38 AM (yTndK)
71
Let me go into a little more detail about the radio problem. First off, almost all radios (including modern military CINCGARS) allow only ONE radio to broadcast at a time. If two people try to talk at the same time, one person gets stepped on. Point two, I am not entirely sure, but I believe the radios in the Bradley go through the headset mics in the CVC helmets. Point three, to my knowledge there aren't radios in the back of the Bradleys.
So, according to ex-PFC Beauchamp's story, he heard "a roar of laughter" over the radio and then later heard "everyone laughing." Really? How is that considering only one person can be heard talking on a radio at one time? I guess maybe if the K9 killing Bradley was being followed by a Humvee and the radio used a hand mic. Then you might pick up two or three people inside the Humvee laughing. Otherwise, its impossible to get multiple people broadcasting on a radio at the same time. The other question is, what position was ex-PFC Beauchamp in. If he is a crewman in the back of a Bradley, either he can't see anything at all, or he doesn't have a radio.
Posted by: BohicaTwentyTwo at August 10, 2007 08:11 AM (oC8nQ)
72
Compliments to 1Charlie2 for providing the reality of life in theater for soldiers. The typical soldier is a professional working among a team of professionals. Slackers and joyriders are quickly taught to get their act together else they put their team at risk.
Boredom is a real issue yet no NCO or Officer is going to accept damage to equipment that they depend on for their lives. Shooting dogs, maybe. Wasting fuel, damaging the country, damaging equipment - if real then there's a number of Officers and NCOs that would be held accountable, not just the joyriding PFC.
Fact checkers should be asking the Army PAO, who will go on the record, if the events in this story are violations of the Uniform Code of Military Justice (UCMJ). Willfully damaging equipment by running into corners of buildings is clearly a violation. There are too many professionals in the line to allow this when the threat is real and troops are injured or killed every day. A second question to ask the PAO is what action does the Army plan to take against Beauchamp for fabricating this story and violating regulations if not the UCMJ.
Posted by: Wolf at August 10, 2007 09:17 AM (UjbiU)
73
What I wonder about is the quoute:
"How you do this (I've seen it done more than once) is, when you approach the dog in question, suddenly lurch the Bradley on the opposite side of the road the dog is on."
How did he see this? And more than once?
This was supposedly done out on the streets, so how did he witness it?
Posted by: Erik at August 10, 2007 09:30 AM (FK908)
74
As a former commander of USAF (yeah, Air Force) ground combat troops assigned to a heavy Corps and one who's seen/watched Bradleys up close, Beauchamp's BS just made me laugh. Doing what he described with a Brad is like running a European Formula One race course through downtown Paris in a full-sized garbage truck at top speed. Not bloody likely, mate.
Alas, millions of people swallowed it whole (at least for awhile) because their collective military experience is miniscule...a fact that makes public opinion in times of war even more vulnerable to the kind of information warfare TNR practices.
But I'll tell you what really chaps my britches--we are spending a lot of energy and time refuting this miscreant's drivel AND we are discussing the limitations of a combat vehicle in an open forum to do so. Not only are we trying to defend the nation's fighting men and women against slander, but also having to do it while increasing the potential risk to our troops.
As a former attack pilot, I don't like anyone discussing ANYTHING about my jet that may increase the likelihood of me getting killed because someone on the other side pieced together a system vulnerability via an open forum.
Let's be clear...Beauchamp and TNR may have done even more damage than they had intended.
And this strikes home for me even more today. Today, the 24 year-old son of a friend, killed in Afghanistan last Tuesday, is being buried at Arlington. He was a hero whose reputation cannot be sullied by the likes of Thomas Scott Beauchamp or Franklin Foer, no matter how hard they try.
Posted by: Instapilot at August 10, 2007 09:51 AM (6vrO/)
75
Hmmmm.
@ 1charlie2
It's amazing how many people there are who were in the SAS, Special Forces, Rangers and Marine Recon.
I experienced something like this when I was a serving Marine grunt. Our unit got a new Major coming in from a Fleet unit who was supposedly "Recon". All the talk was that the guy was a badass who'd hammer us into being more shipshape than the 35% s**tbirds/45% don't-give-a-f**k/20% hardcore that we really were.
Come the first day of morning PT that this new "Recon" Major was going to lead he has us dress in green t-shirts, camo trousers and boots for the run. He gets out in front of the formation and does this "I'm a badass" spiel.
Then we go for the basic, routine and pretty ordinary 3 mile in July where the temp is 85 degrees and the humidity is somewhere north of 100%. The pace started *off* nice and quick but that lasted all of about 5 minutes. Once we got out of the barracks area the pace started to slow down a great deal until it was barely crawling.
Finally the whole formation stopped ...... because the "Recon" Major crapped out and couldn't go any farther. So far we'd done about 1/3 of a mile! Heck even the s**tbirds weren't even sweating.
After that you can pretty much guess what happened. All the Marines in the formation found out the Major had crapped out after only 1/3rd of a mile, we all started laughing our butts off and rolling on the ground, the Captain and other officers and NCOs got a bit pissed off and made us do recruit-training style exercises off the road and in the brush.
*shrug* we were still laughing while we did them.
Never ceases to amaze me that so few people can stand on up and admit: "I carried a rifle and that's about it".
Posted by: memomachine at August 10, 2007 10:31 AM (3pvQO)
76
Hmmmm.
@ 1charlie2
Oh I forgot. Evidently the Major had been in a Recon unit. But was in the administrative section and had absolutely nothing to do with actual operations.
Or PT for that matter.
Posted by: memomachine at August 10, 2007 10:33 AM (3pvQO)
77
The real hoot here is TNR's own statement of their original, pre-publication fact-checking:
"We checked the plausibility of details with experts, contacted a corroborating witness, and pressed the author for further details."
That's one, repeat ONE, corroborating witness...plus, I guess, "experts" who agreed, "Yeah, that could happen."
And what's with this? "Given what we knew of Beauchamp, personally and professionally, we credited his report."
"Personally"? So they knew him well? Had met him face-to-face? When?
"Professionally"? They were relying on his credentials and reputation? Such as?
Posted by: John at August 10, 2007 11:04 AM (GnvC/)
78
i think everything about this story falls apart with the aparent victim. the dog..... what dog would ever be drawn to a loud vehicle...especially stray dogs..you cant even get close to them.
totally ridiculous.
On planet wingnut dogs never chase cars!
I like this fantasy world you all live in. Is there a way for me to experience it short of a lobotomy?
Posted by: Sarcastro at August 10, 2007 11:05 AM (Yg0rt)
79
Putting the best light on this,our "soldier/writer" heard "war stories"(not based on fact) and decided to embellish them. TNR,having no military experience and against the war, bought the tall tail,hook,line and sinker.
Posted by: Stu at August 10, 2007 11:29 AM (L/5m3)
80
Has anyone verified the existence of the "melted" woman anywhere? Someone like that would be memorable, surely someone could say "Yes, I've seen a woman who was disfigured like that".
Posted by: LarryD at August 10, 2007 12:15 PM (0cpwi)
81
Beachamp Radio Procedure:
"Charlie-one-one, this is charlie-one-two: Ha-ha, over"
Sarcast0 - "car" does not equal 25 tone armoured vehicle with tracks clanking, roadwheels screeching (I bet dogs hate that) and a really load diesel engine roaring. Given the noise that an AFV puts out, I would think all the dogs would run the other way.
Posted by: holdfast at August 10, 2007 01:02 PM (Gzb30)
82
Sarcastro:
You're kidding, right, in a "fake but accurate" kinda way?
I mean, you're not actually equating your local well-fed, car-chasing family dog with a feral animal trying to feed itself from scraps in the streets? In a place where the local drivers look on dogs as we would look at rats?
Use the grey stuff between your ears and actually think before you type.
Posted by: Doc at August 10, 2007 01:57 PM (fGGUu)
83
People,
My name is Ali. I am the dog in question that was supposedly hit by the Bradley Fighting Vehicle. Very frankly the BFV didn't hit me but I did piss on it a lot.
Then Fifi, my bitch said that I could sue the US military for a one million dinars if I was hit. I mean what can I say. Have you seen the living condition here in Iraq?
We needed a patsy --er PFC and we saw this Beauchamp guy and heck I moaned and whined till he finally got the message and decided to write the story.
I am really ticked that he got all of the press notice and I got zip. So here I am stuck in Iraq with Fifi and no money, no food.
Any of you guys, just send me some Iams, or Alpo or anything. Its just scraps here.
Thanks in advance,
Ali
Posted by: subrot0 at August 10, 2007 02:41 PM (AeOZo)
84
And, uh, for the record, just exactly who are your sources for the Beauchamp story being untrue?
Posted by: digitusmedius at August 10, 2007 03:26 PM (cVH/O)
85
Hmmmm.
Here's something new:
TNR
This is pretty odd:
"Indeed, we continue to investigate the anecdotes recounted in the Baghdad Diarist. Unfortunately, our efforts have been severely hampered by the U.S. Army. Although the Army says it has investigated Beauchamp's article and has found it to be false, it has refused our--and others'--requests to share any information or evidence from its investigation. What's more, the Army has rejected our requests to speak to Beauchamp himself, on the grounds that it wants "to protect his privacy.""
Ummmm. Are they saying that the Army is holding Beauchamp incommunicado? Or is it that Beauchamp doesn't want anything to do with TNR and the Army is refusing to make Beauchamp talk to TNR?
You can read it either way.
Still. This is another example of long on prose, low on detail.
Posted by: memomachine at August 10, 2007 03:45 PM (3pvQO)
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You mean the Army wouldn't want Beauchamp to confirm to TNR that his story was false? And that would be because the Army doesn't want the falseness of the story confirmed by Beauchamp? So we have unnamed sources alleged to exist by the Weakly Standard claiming that the story is false but no one in the Army willing to come forward, be named, and confirm this. Now THAT's solid reporting, isn't it?
Posted by: digitusmedius at August 10, 2007 04:00 PM (cVH/O)
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digitusmedius - The same guys who can prove that aliens are not visiting our planet.
Posted by: Bugs at August 10, 2007 04:06 PM (blNMI)
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So we have unnamed sources alleged to exist by the Weakly Standard claiming that the story is false but no one in the Army willing to come forward, be named, and confirm this. Now THAT's solid reporting, isn't it?
What kind of crack are you on?
Col. Steven Boylan, LTC James Crider, Major Steven Lamb, Major Renee D. Russo, Major Kirk Luedeke, SSG Hartley... the question seems more to be, who in the U.S. Army hasn't said that Beauchamp's stories were false, a myth or urban legend?
And, uh, for the record, just exactly who are your sources for the Beauchamp story being untrue?
You mean in addition to those above?
How about William "Big Country" Coughlin, a contractor at the base in Kuwait where the burned woman story was supposed to have happened, who flatly denies she exists? How about Doug Coffey, TNR's own expert, who was cited above?
Nice try... actually, it wasn't even that.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at August 10, 2007 04:22 PM (HcgFD)
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Lamb is on record for saying he didn't know anything about the story being proven false and doesn't know who told the Weakly Standard that it was. As to the others: I'd love to see what they've actually said.
Posted by: digitusmedius at August 10, 2007 04:33 PM (cVH/O)
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Oh, and when the Weakly Substandard is reduced to arguing whether a 35 ton vehicle is capable of splitting a dog in two after it runs over it, you have reached the very definition of grasping at straw.
Posted by: digitusm at August 10, 2007 04:37 PM (cVH/O)
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digitusmedius:
I'll be your source for disproving the dog story. As I said in a previous post, there is no way a driver could even see the dog he claims to have run over with quite a bit of finesse. I spent 6 years holding every position on the Bradley from dismount to driver to gunner to Bradley Commander. It can't be done. It simply never happened. What more do you need to know? I'll be glad to explain it further as so many others have done here. If he lied about the dog story and the DFAC melted face story why do you think he told the truth about anything else?
Posted by: K. Anderson at August 10, 2007 04:43 PM (bs0dv)
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K. Anderson:
With all due respect, I don't think you're an unbiased source. I accept that that's your opinion, but just your opinion. And why should the source who says the Kuwait story is false be any more believeable than the original diarist. By the way, the diarist never claimed to have witnessed all of these events personally, did he? Was he not sometimes relating a variety of stories told to him? It may be that a lot of people around him made up stuff but that's doesn't mean the diarist is lying.
Posted by: digitusmedius at August 10, 2007 05:26 PM (cVH/O)
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digitusmedius,
Lamb is on record for saying he didn't know anything about the story being proven false and doesn't know who told the Weakly Standard that it was.
Wrong. He said he didn't know anything about Beauchamp's statement. But he also said:
“We are not going into the details of the investigation,” Maj. Steven F. Lamb, deputy public affairs officer in Baghdad, wrote in an e-mail message. “The allegations are false, his platoon and company were interviewed, and no one could substantiate the claims he made.”
Which finds him confirming, on the record, that the claims are false and have been proven so.
Do you still believe in square backed rounds and Glocks being exclusive to the Iraqi Police?
Posted by: Pablo at August 10, 2007 05:27 PM (yTndK)
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By the way, the diarist never claimed to have witnessed all of these events personally, did he? Was he not sometimes relating a variety of stories told to him?
No, he claimed to be a witness or participant in all of the stories. The only exception was that of the THIRD dog being run over by a joyriding BFV driver, which he heard about on the radio with everyone laughing about it.
Posted by: Pablo at August 10, 2007 05:30 PM (yTndK)
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Pablo, Where did that quote from Lamb come from because that was decidedly NOT what he told TNR when they contacted him 2 days ago. And where did this idea that the TNR was anti-war come from. TNR supported the invasion of Iraq 100%. It is only in the last year that the mag. has come to the conclusion, as have 70% of the country, that it was a bad, bad idea.
Posted by: digitusmedius at August 10, 2007 05:49 PM (cVH/O)
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Read the link. It's the New York Times.
Posted by: Pablo at August 10, 2007 05:52 PM (yTndK)
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The army claims that the Beauchamp diaries are false but won't disclose on what basis their investigation came to this conclusion. This is shades of Jessica Lynch, Abu Ghraib and Pat Tillman all over again.
Posted by: digitusmedius at August 10, 2007 05:54 PM (cVH/O)
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Oh, and as for TNR, read this from June 2004 and tell us again how pro-war TNR has been. And let's also not fail to note that TNR has taken a hard left under Franklin Foer, where Peter Beinart was more of a moderate.
And then pardon me if I don't trust your fact checking.
Posted by: Pablo at August 10, 2007 05:56 PM (yTndK)
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The army claims that the Beauchamp diaries are false but won't disclose on what basis their investigation came to this conclusion.
Nonsense. Read Lamb's statement (and Boylan's and a host of others) again.
“The allegations are false, his platoon and company were interviewed, and no one could substantiate the claims he made.”
There's your basis.
Posted by: Pablo at August 10, 2007 05:59 PM (yTndK)
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BTW, there's this from TNR's latest statement:
Here’s what we know: On July 26, Beauchamp told us that he signed several statements under what he described as pressure from the Army.
Shouldn’t everyone who has been pursuing this story now be asking the Army for comment on this new allegation?
Posted by: Karl at August 10, 2007 06:01 PM (U21jd)
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digitsumedia:
First off, I'm sure you don't recognize the irony when you demand to know where Lamb's comment came from.
It was TNR that made the assertions that what Beauchamp was writing is true. Therefore, it is incumbent upon TNR to show that the stories are true.
Second, in referring to Jessica Lynch, you do realize that it was the Army that was saying, "Whoa! Let's find out what happened."? And that it was the media (based on "unnamed sources") that was hyping the heck out of it, yes?
Third, in referring to Abu Ghraib, exactly what are you claiming? That the Army lied about it? Or that the Army was investigating Abu Ghraib already when the story was broken?
Finally, what exactly would it take to convince YOU that Beauchamp was lying? That a Bradley cannot do what he claimed to have been part of; that there are no shell casings that match his description; that there is no apparent record of a woman matching his description at the location he gave; most of all, that he himself lied about both the time and place of the incident involving the woman (Iraq after the war began, versus Kuwait before the war began).All of this seems to have been pretty well established.
What are you looking for, exactly?
Tell me, are you someone who also believes that the Texas Air National Guard commander used a type-setting machine to type memos to himself in a font that matches Microsoft Word's default setting?
Posted by: Lurking Observer at August 10, 2007 06:01 PM (RqdQ+)
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BTW, the Jessica Lynch fabulism was the WaPo's story, not the Army's, and it was the Army that reported Abu Ghraib. In Tillman's case, while the truth was manhandled, it came out in relatively short order and those responsible for the manhandling have paid for it.
Posted by: Pablo at August 10, 2007 06:02 PM (yTndK)
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What are you looking for, exactly?
A reason, any reason, to believe.
Here’s what we know: On July 26, Beauchamp told us that he signed several statements under what he described as pressure from the Army.
Let's look at the next line:
He told us that these statements did not contradict his articles.
So, they're saying that he was pressured by the Army to sign statements that don't contradict his articles.
I call bullsh*t.
Posted by: Pablo at August 10, 2007 06:08 PM (yTndK)
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L.O.
Let's see. The army hasn't released anything about its inestigation but you seem to have all the information. That's pretty odd. I'm glad you brought up the TANG story because everyone who knew Bush and his commander confirmed the basic validity of the CBS story.
Posted by: digitusmedius at August 10, 2007 06:08 PM (cVH/O)
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Pablo,
Then I'd think you want to demand that the Army make its investigation public. I sure would like to see it.
Posted by: digitusmedius at August 10, 2007 06:09 PM (cVH/O)
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The army hasn't released anything about its inestigation but you seem to have all the information.
What part of "his platoon and company were interviewed, and no one could substantiate the claims he made." do you not understand?
Posted by: Pablo at August 10, 2007 06:10 PM (yTndK)
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Pablo: where'd the WaPo get it's Lynch story? Are you saying they completely invented it (when, in fact, it was fed to them by military PAOs--the same breed falling all over themselves to attack the Beauchamp account; they have as much credibility as "the insurgents are in their last throes" Cheney). The army sat on the Abu Ghraib story until an Israeli newspaper broke it shortly before the photos saved by one of the soldiers there got distributed. And we STILL have not gotten the truth about Tillman.
Posted by: digitusmedius at August 10, 2007 06:13 PM (cVH/O)
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It's people who believe the army PAOs, like the ones who fed the Lynch story to the press and told us there was nothing to see at Abu Ghraib and that Pat Tillman died while taking out a bunch o' Taliban, that really need to wake up to how the military goes into defensive mode when it tries to hide something embarrassing.
Posted by: digitusmedius at August 10, 2007 06:16 PM (cVH/O)
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I also find it more than funny that the kinds of things that Beauchamp reported as happening are exactly the kinds of things right wingers love to fantasize about our soldiers doing. If his story had been picked up by, say, Free Republic, you people attacking him now would be hootin' and hollerin' your approval.
Posted by: digitusmedius at August 10, 2007 06:19 PM (cVH/O)
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Then I'd think you want to demand that the Army make its investigation public.
The Army isn't claiming any wrongdoing. TNR is. The burden of proof is on them. What you're asking for is that someone put his platoon/company mates on the record. The Army isn't going to do it because of privacy concerns. But I'd like to see someone do it, and the Army, we have been told has talked to all of them and has found no one to confirm the stories.
What more do you need to know from the Army? Time for TNR to get their sources on the record.
Posted by: Pablo at August 10, 2007 06:20 PM (yTndK)
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Someone isn't listening.
Posted by: Pablo at August 10, 2007 06:21 PM (yTndK)
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I also find it more than funny that the kinds of things that Beauchamp reported as happening are exactly the kinds of things right wingers love to fantasize about our soldiers doing.
So you're an expert on right winger fantasies? Time to cash in your chips, moonbat. You've got to know when to hold 'em, know when to fold 'em, know when to walk away and know when to run.
Posted by: Pablo at August 10, 2007 06:26 PM (yTndK)
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Pablo,
Already to the personal name calling? How very third grade of you. It does tell us something about your argument, though. It's flimsy and cracking up.
Posted by: digitusmedius at August 10, 2007 06:30 PM (cVH/O)
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Did I say it was the tracks that cut the dog in half. Umm, my bad, I meant to say that the gunner opened fire on it and 1,000 well placed 50 caliber bullets sawed him in half.
I'd just really like to put this dog stuff behind me so I can get back to writing about things that really happened. Like us having to wade through streets of raw sewage and terrorists cutting our interpreters / informants tongues out while an entire battalion watched.
digitusmedius, don't let the haters get you down. WE KNOW THE "TRUTH". Those darned Army "PAOs" are all conspiring to cover up the actions that General Betrayus sanctions on a daily basis.
Posted by: scott thomas at August 10, 2007 06:33 PM (CQcil)
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You're moonbat fantasies are a waste of my time, buddy. And I've destroyed every "fact" you've tried to put forward here.
You're out of your league. Now run along.
Posted by: Pablo at August 10, 2007 06:34 PM (yTndK)
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By the way digitusmedius, could you ship a Playstation or XBox over? They snatched mine during the investigation and won't give it back. At least contact my mom and have her call my CO.
Thanks!
Posted by: scott thomas at August 10, 2007 06:36 PM (CQcil)
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I think Tbogg and Sarcastro hit on something that might open our eyes a bit. I remember hearing about Gharib and thinking "I'll never believe that unless I see pictures." Dang if they didn't have pictures. I'm sure we all come at this from a pre-set viewpoint. My pre-set viewpoint is that military folks are typically professionals doing beneficial things for humanity. They're the people I want taking care of my kids and the folks I trust with guns. There is the occasional nutcase, but that is an outlyer (sp?), not a norm.
Zillions of folks have described why any military person would look on Beauchamp's story with scepticism. TNR's folks weren't military, so they got what they felt was objective backup for the story. I have no military experience at all (unless I can count dating GI's in college), but reading the stories Beauchamp wrote, I think anyone with sense could discount them. The rotting flesh story should send alarm into any thinking person's head. My challenge to you folks who still think he was telling a truth the military wishes to hide is: take a chicken and put it in a bag in your backyard for a week or two, then bring it into your house. Tell me how long you would be willing to live this way. OK, now what if it was in your car with you? No one but an idiot would believe some kid was wearing a skull with rotting flesh for a day with other human beings. One insane person might be able to live with that chicken in their car for a while, but you're expecting me to believe that nutball was traveling with other folks who just tolerated this? That is unbelievable. There is only one reason an editor or fact checker would let something like this go to press: because their pre-set viewpoint is that military folks are stinky people who do weird inhumane things for giggles and grins. I suspect their pre-set viewpoint combined with a liberal arts education that has left them over educated and under knowledged leads them to say stuff like: we talked to a forensic specialist that told us it is indeed possible for someone to do this. The same viewpoint prevented them from asking the next obvious question: would anyone do that? The forensic person would clearly answer: only if they have no sense of smell.
To me, this isn't a matter of what side of the aisle you are on, but what your viewpoint is. I like mine better than yours, but I guess that goes unsaid.
Posted by: Carolynp at August 10, 2007 06:39 PM (5lcHQ)
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Big d, really I hate to be a pest and don't want to impose on you too much. But could you perhaps get this bit of information out to the network.
If they don't get the antidote to us soon I fear we'll have a nation full of killers coming home. And worst of all, when we take the whitehouse back from these Rethugs the monsters they've created will reek havoc under our watch.
Posted by: scott thomas at August 10, 2007 06:41 PM (CQcil)
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While Pablo continues with his tantrum, I thought I'd take this opportunity to say one thing that I'll bet the farm on. That is this: if it is shown without a reasonable doubt that the Beauchamp diaries were fiction, TNR will own up to it. On the other hand, if Beauchamp was telling the truth, the Weakly Substandard will never admit that it mounted an attack based on nothing but innuendo and fabrication and neither will any of its enablers on this website.
Posted by: digitusmedius at August 10, 2007 07:56 PM (Yp8Xe)
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Like Carolynp says, the closest she ever got to combat was fighting off GIs on a date...and it shows by what she wrote above.
Posted by: digitusmedius at August 10, 2007 08:05 PM (Yp8Xe)
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digitusmedius,
When I tell you the dog story isn't possible it isn't an opinion, it is fact. I've spent more time in a Bradley than you probably have in your own car so I think I know what I'm talking about. Exactly how much time have you spent in a Bradley?
Scott Thomas, if that is your real name, exactly how man .50cals (Ma Deuce) are on a Bradley?
Posted by: K. Anderson at August 10, 2007 08:05 PM (bs0dv)
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digitus, you've not sustained a single point here, nor have you successfully rebutted one offered by anyone else here. You're standing behind TNR for requiring a standard of proof, complete transparency, that the Army cannot meet and that TNR itself refuses to meet despite the fact that it can.
It is not simply a "right wing fantasy" as noted in your name calling tantrum, but it is the titans of the MSM calling TNR to the carpet. The NYT, WaPo, and AP as well as numerous journalistic ethicists have condemned their behavior here.
The Weekly Standard has named and directly quoted all of it's sources but one. The WS has also reported every position that TNR has taken. TNR has done none of this. They've dodged and obfuscated. They've failed to report things that we know they were aware of.
There's only one reason for you to be supporting TNR here in the face of overwhelming evidence that they've been duped, or lied to us, or both: Ideology.
Have the courage to admit that.
Posted by: Pablo at August 10, 2007 08:05 PM (yTndK)
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K. Anderson, that's a faux Beauchamp. Click his link, it's pretty funny stuff. And besides, I'm not sure the real Beauchamp would be able to answer you.
Posted by: Pablo at August 10, 2007 08:08 PM (yTndK)
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K Anderson,
Most of them don't have any .50cals, but Xzibbit pimped my ride and put one on each corner. So I've got four.
Its a sweet ride, the neon green and black make it stand out from the crowd too.
Posted by: scott thomas at August 10, 2007 08:17 PM (CQcil)
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digitusmedius, why hath thou forsaken me.
I thought we had a bond.
I'll be in my bunk, waiting, wearing just a smile.
Posted by: scott thomas at August 10, 2007 08:23 PM (CQcil)
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Pablo continues to labor under the mistaken idea that his side on this has presented anything like proof to support his attacks. What do they have? A bunch of unsubstantiated statements by military flak catchers and PR types and the promise from the Army that it will not reveal anything from its investigation. In other words, nothing but pure, unadulterated b.s.
Posted by: digitusmedius at August 10, 2007 09:05 PM (Yp8Xe)
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You haven't even read the post you're commenting on, have you, digitus?
Run along, child.
Posted by: Pablo at August 10, 2007 09:09 PM (yTndK)
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Pablo,
You can't really expect digi to read can you?
Really, just what the hell would a person working in the media relations area of their company know about their products? I mean they're only answering questions about them on a daily basis.
Do you think Bill Gates knows a damned thing about DOS or Windows? I think not!!11eleven!!111
Posted by: scott thomas at August 10, 2007 09:16 PM (CQcil)
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Pablo,
This isn't a criminal trial, where the jury needs to unanimously reach a verdict based on the "beyond a reasonable doubt" standard. Fortunately. digitusmedious is, I think, sincere, and providing a useful function here. By a "reasonable person" or "preponderance of the evidence" standard, each of C.Y.'s posts on the Beauchamp/TNR scandal has been at least a base hit. A few, like this one, are home runs.
But as we see here, facts, logic, evidence, experience, testimony, and reasonableness cannot persuade a person who is convinced of the truth of a different narrative. There are an infinite number of "Aha! But what if ..." objections that can be raised to anything.
The more people know about the details of the case, the more they will be taken aback by the quality of the arguments being marshalled against you.
Posted by: AMac at August 10, 2007 09:42 PM (Jj04x)
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Sadly, digitus doesn't seem to be capable of even raising "Aha!" arguments, AMac. I look at this:
In other words, nothing but pure, unadulterated b.s.
...and I see a blinkered, shrieking moonbat with whom further discourse is utterly pointless. This is the kind of guy who will insist to this day that the Rather/TANG documents were real.
It's a pity, but not a problem we're going to resolve.
Posted by: Pablo at August 10, 2007 09:54 PM (yTndK)
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Noble efforts, digitusmedius, but you're dealing with the 26%ers. The Beauchamp articles *cannot* be true because they say so--hell, there's probably a bunch of people on this board who still think Jamil Hussein doesn't exist, or that that AP photographer was secretly trying to kill Dick Cheney by photographing a birdhouse--despite the fact that the Secret Service approved the photos.
What's really curious to me is that the Weekly Standard statement that Beauchamp had recanted didn't go up until *after* TNR made public that Beauchamp was unable to communicate with the outside world… so that he couldn't respond to the allegations. That, plus the fact that the Weekly Standard is on record as insisting multiple times that Saddam Hussein has ties to Al-Qaeda--not based on any facts, mind you, but based on the idea that Mohammed Atta *could* have been in the Czech Republic for three days (he could have been anywhere--Saudia Arabia, the U.K., Antarctica… there's no evidence to place him in Prague)--means the Standard has lost all credibility with me.
And of course, no one here is talking about the possibility of statements being coerced by the army.
A prediction: couple of years down the line (say, 2009), after they get out of the army, a couple of Beauchamp's fellow soldiers will come forward to confirm all the stories (acknowledging that one happened in Kuwait). And everyone on this board will either ignore it or find some reason not to believe them, either.
Money quotes: "when the facts show that the outing of Valerie Plame came from an opponent of the Iraq war (Richard Armitage)"
Er. The outing of Valerie Plame came from three people--Armitage, who, being a decent human being, regrets it--and Libby (who called up several journalists, including Judith Miller and Matt Cooper--forget about that, did you, Mr. O'Sullivan?--and Karl Rove. I'm always amazed at wingers' attempts to deny this simple fact.
Carolynp: "I remember hearing about Ghraib and thinking "I'll never believe that unless I see pictures." Dang if they didn't have pictures. I'm sure we all come at this from a pre-set viewpoint."
Carolynp, have you learned nothing from that experience? We may all have pre-set mentalities, but your mentality resulted in your *denying reality.* Would the Abu Ghraib have been any less true without pictures?
Some day, right-wingers are going to realize that denying reality is not a viable way to keep a political party afloat, and we can start having conversations based in reality. I look forward to that day. Until then, well, the wingers will continue to live in the wonderful world of denial.
Posted by: JacksonR at August 10, 2007 10:03 PM (1FGGk)
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JacksonR, have you ever served in the US military? I think not. You have several people on this board with experience in the military who are telling you that what Beauchamp said isn't physically possible. IT COULD NOT HAVE HAPPENED THE WAY HE SAID IT DID. I know. You would have a better chance of convincing me that sky is green and water isn't wet.
Why do you left wingers keep bringing up Abu Ghraib? It was a non story. A bunch of moronic West Virginians made some terrorists put underwear on their head. Boo Freaking Hoo. Who cares? They were disciplined and are serving their time. Why don't you guys show the same kind of outrage for the cowardly muslim bastards who use a dull machete to saw the head off a conscious and innocent American? Or kidnap a reporter and behead him? Or kidnap innocent Koreans who are trying to help people and execute them? Why don't you aim your anger at the bad guys instead of the brave men and women of the US military who are defending our nation against these animals so they don't do this kind of horrendous behavior in the streets of the US?
What in God's name is wrong with you anti-military, America hating, leftwing communist bastards? I'm just glad that people like me are willing to give up our own safety and comfort to keep this country safe and I don't undersand why we have to put up with your whining and sypathizing witht he enemy when you should be kissing our bloody and blistered feet that you are able to live in freedom. You guys disgust me.
Posted by: K. Anderson at August 10, 2007 10:30 PM (bs0dv)
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the Weekly Standard is on record as insisting multiple times that Saddam Hussein has ties to Al-Qaeda--not based on any facts, mind you, but based on the idea that Mohammed Atta *could* have been in the Czech Republic for three days (he could have been anywhere--Saudia Arabia, the U.K., Antarctica… there's no evidence to place him in Prague)
Google search "Atta Prague al-Ani".
"[Stanislav Gross, the Minister of Interior of the Czech Republic,] explained that Atta had been in the Czech Republic at least twice: on June 2, 2000 and in early April 2001." From Edward Jay Epstein's timeline.
G'night.
Posted by: AMac at August 10, 2007 10:48 PM (Jj04x)
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Ahh, the last refuge of of the right wing know-nothings: "you hate the military, you hate the military." Good, God, do you 25%ers really think it's that easy...what am I saying, of course you do. Everything has to be reduced to something that fits on a bumper sticker for you people to grasp. Are you so naive as to believe that there aren't people in the military who will lie to protect their asses? You people who say you've served in the military must know that it's not like the people in it stop being human and suddenly don't have all the human weaknesses and failings that everyone else does. Go ahead, keep trying to hide behind that "they hate the military" gauze barrier that is so delicately trying to mask the fact that you can't stand it when you've been wrong time, after time, after time. By God, it's your support of George Bush that has nearly destroyed our military. Oh, but you'll never let yourselves see that. It'll always be someone else's fault. Those damn liberals are always to blame even when it's your hand in the broken cookie jar, right? When will you ever grow up and take responsibility for your lies and your foolishness?
Posted by: digitusmedius at August 10, 2007 10:49 PM (Yp8Xe)
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digitusmedius,
Give me just 1 LIE that GWB told. Just 1. I'd love to hear it.
Posted by: K. Anderson at August 10, 2007 10:51 PM (bs0dv)
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I only just saw the unbelieveable (and I mean that in all senses of the word) post from something called AMac in which we find this gem:
"facts, logic, evidence, experience, testimony"
Can someone really delude themselves so entirely as to transform a total stonewall by the military into "facts, logic, evidence, experience, testimony." I'll go on record as saying that I have no idea whether Scott, or Thomas, or Beauchamp, or whatever the hell his name is, was accurately telling a story about real events or not. But nothing that the Weakly Substandard, the Army flakcatchers or this website has come up with puts even the slightest dent into the TNR story. It's like you think yelling "it's a lie, it's a lie" at the top of your thin, high pitched, whiny voices for as long as you can draw breath somehow makes it so. It's so absolutely puerile, it'd be funny if it weren't so damn sad.
Posted by: digitusmedius at August 10, 2007 10:58 PM (Yp8Xe)
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"we're fighting the same folks in Iraq who attacked us on 9/11"--how's that K. Anderson. Now, it's your turn: Give me one "truth" George Bush has ever said.
Posted by: digitusmedius at August 10, 2007 11:00 PM (Yp8Xe)
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We ARE fighting the same people in Iraq, you idiot. Islamic fundementalism is a world wide problem but it is concentrated in the middle-east. These people we are fighting are the EXACT same people, have you heard of Al-Queda in Iraq. This is so easy.
NEXT!
Posted by: K. Anderson at August 10, 2007 11:02 PM (bs0dv)
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Can someone tell me: when did it become patriotic to send our military into a quagmire and let it get stuck in someone else's civil war and get run into the ground? The right wingers told us we had to do that in Vietnam. And they were wrong. Now they tell us we have to do it in Iraq. And, they're wrong again. How many times do we have to learn this lesson?
Posted by: digitusmedius at August 10, 2007 11:04 PM (Yp8Xe)
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digitusmedius said:
"It's like you think yelling "it's a lie, it's a lie" at the top of your thin, high pitched, whiny voices for as long as you can draw breath somehow makes it so. It's so absolutely puerile, it'd be funny if it weren't so damn sad."
You have just summed up the left wing Bush Derangement Syndrome in that one thought. Funny how projection works, you see your own flaws in others. AMAZING!
Posted by: K. Anderson at August 10, 2007 11:05 PM (bs0dv)
141
So, K. Anderson believes the myth that George Bush is perpetuating every time he lies about the enemy in Iraq. It is not now, nor was it ever the same people who attacked us on 9/11. Those people are still at large and living safely in Western Pakistan, thanks to George Bush's complete incompetence and mendacity. You will not find one person who really knows about Al Qaida and what calls itself Al Qaida in Iraq who think they're even remotely connected other than by their own rhetoric and the Bush administration's lie machine. It's sort of telling how those two groups seem to match up these days.
Posted by: digitusmedius at August 10, 2007 11:08 PM (Yp8Xe)
142
digitusmedius,
Fist of all, Iraq is neither a quagmire, nor is it a civil war and the only ones getting "run into the ground" are those screaming allah akbar and wearing dirty rags on their heads.
Second, when did LBJ (Mr New Society) become a right winger?
I believe if you read your history it was a Republican with the initials RMN that got us out of the quagmire the Democrats created in Vietnam. And if you dig a little deeper in your history books, it was another Democrat that got us into Korea, where we still have troops enforcing the ceasfire along the 38th parallel.
Learn your history, son.
Posted by: K. Anderson at August 10, 2007 11:10 PM (bs0dv)
143
I guess Pablo has retired to put his aching head to rest. He (I'm assuming "he") is so typical of most if not all right wing apologists for the Bush regime and the right wing lie Wurlitzer. Challenged to actually put up real facts instead of their stock-in-trade innuendo and inventions, they immediately start with the name-calling and then sulk off like some 8 year old who can't have his way. Sleep well, Pablo. You'll need it.
Posted by: digitusmedius at August 10, 2007 11:13 PM (Yp8Xe)
144
So I guess you also believe that the Germans we fought in the sahara desert were different from the ones we fought in France and totally seperate from the ones the Russians fought on the Eastern front.
You really are a piece of work.
Muslim extremists are all part of the global jihad movement. They are all part of the group that is trying to destroy western civilization and you are complicit in that destruction if you can't even admit that the people we are fighting in Iraq are the EXACT same breed who attacked us on 9/11. Evil is evil.
Posted by: K. Anderson at August 10, 2007 11:13 PM (bs0dv)
145
K.A. I have to grudgingly give you credit on one thing. You have managed to insulate and inoculate yourself completely from anything remotely connected to the truth and reality of Iraq and George Bush disastrous rule. That is quite an accomplishment. If denial was a science you'd be a PhD.
Posted by: digitusmedius at August 10, 2007 11:15 PM (Yp8Xe)
146
I've got an idea.
Let's find some abandoned field somewhere, get some used Bradleys, some stuffed toys in the shape of dogs, and let the lefties who say it's possible prove it.
We can call it Beauchamp-land. Charge a few bucks admission (with a refund if they actually do what Beauchamp claimed), and we'd be rolling in the dough.
We can donate the proceeds to the GOP.
Posted by: C-C-G at August 10, 2007 11:17 PM (eUgIf)
147
"Wurlitzer"
Ah, the lame prose of Ollie Willis gets a revival.
He, too, is "making a difference" in this world, I guess. Along with G.I. Scott.
Cordially...
Posted by: Rick at August 10, 2007 11:18 PM (Ohkx7)
148
I've got to get up early in the morning so I just want to say this: I appreciate the freedom that CY has permitted in this comment section. I've been to other right wing fora and bbss and I was kicked off long before now for putting the pressure on the right wing posters. So much for their tolerance of dissent. But, it seems that CY is not afraid to have us go toe to toe, and let the chips fall. That's part of the American way. Or at least that's what I've always believed.
Posted by: digitusmedius at August 10, 2007 11:19 PM (Yp8Xe)
149
digitusmedius,
Once again, I've shot down all of your rhetoric with facts so now you have to resort to name calling. Typical. You people are so transparent.
Thank God your ilk isn't running the country. If you were we'd all be praying in Arabic 5 times a day and wiping our asses with our left hand after using the hole in the ground.
Posted by: K. Anderson at August 10, 2007 11:20 PM (bs0dv)
150
C-C-G,
Naw...first, they should prove their chops (in the best Charles Johnson TANG mem font-matching style) by changing a Bradley's flat tire in a waist-deep river of poo.
Not too difficult for some folks here, as it seems to be their natural habitat. But mighty knowledgable about military and world affairs, and hallucinogens, one must say.
Cordially...
Posted by: Rick at August 10, 2007 11:23 PM (Ohkx7)
151
Digitus, you seem to fail to realize that the only reason CY lets your ilk stay around here is because you are such good evidence of the intellectual vacuity of the modern left.
You absolutely refuse to believe facts from those who have actually driven the Bradley, as well as facts from the people who know more about the Bradley than any others--the manufacturers!
You're a poster child for the half-witted, brainwashed lefty, and for that, you deserve to stay here and show everyone what sort of people are running the Democrat party now.
Posted by: C-C-G at August 10, 2007 11:26 PM (eUgIf)
152
I can't believe I read the whole thing...
Lemmeseenow: in this corner, people experienced with track vehicles, people with military service and therefore intimate knowledge of the constraints on individuals in the military in situations ranging from combat to mess hall, people willing to identify themselves and go on record with statements. In THAT corner, people who apparently believe that (for instance) Statement A about a Bradley's capabilities, made by a Bradley operator, and Statement B about a Bradley's capabilities, made by somebody who's never seen a Bradley up close but can "visualize" the scenario, constitute equivalent opinions.
Wowee. Hence the Reality-Based Community. I do give digitusmedia full marks for single-mindedness, though.
Posted by: Jamie at August 11, 2007 01:11 AM (BFmCI)
153
To Confederate Yankee: Fabulous work in your contact with the Bradley manufacturer and reporting of it!
To those commenters with first-hand military experience who've continued to add specific factual information from which those of us without military experience can try to make up our minds: Thank you!
To those of you tempted to continue arguing with the likes of tbogg and digitusmedius: Please, please, please stop feeding the trolls. One constant hallmark of trolls is that they want to change the subject. They would always much rather argue in this post's comments about something like, say, Dubya's TANG service or Abu Ghraib than the physical characteristics and maneuver physics of a Bradley. If you must debate the trolls, please try to limit your arguments with them closely to the subject matter of this post, and resist their efforts to change the subject. Otherwise, you help them spread their smokescreen and make no mistake, that's their only real reason for posting here (i.e., it's part of the definition of being a "troll" rather than a legitimate commenter with opposing views).
Posted by: Beldar at August 11, 2007 02:26 AM (9EiFn)
154
You guys are funny. Why are all rightwing clowns pathetic? I think that since you all are arguing about the maneuver ability of the bradley, why don't you talk about the temperment of dogs? How can you guys forget that? Why do you assume all dogs will just run out of the way when something like a bradley comes their way? Listening to the chickenhawk, 101st keyboarders here makes me laugh. You guys are truly pathetic
Posted by: gb at August 11, 2007 05:34 AM (T5bXD)
155
You absolutely refuse to believe facts from those who have actually driven the Bradley, as well as facts from the people who know more about the Bradley than any others--the manufacturers!
Better yet, he refuses to acknowledge that this information has even been presented while commenting on a post that is built around it.
Liberalism is a mental disorder. digitusmedius has a severe case. He's terminal.
Posted by: Pablo at August 11, 2007 06:27 AM (yTndK)
156
digitusmedius, You claim to be looking for some facts, well here are a few:
Bill Clintons terrorism czar who Bill Clinton himself praised as the most knowledgeable man on terrorism wrote a memo to National Secutiy Advisor Berger long before Bush got to Washington. In it Clarke stated that if we put pressure on Osama Bin laden in Afghanistan he will 'BOOGIE TO BAGHDAD'
Perhaps you can explain why Clintons top terrorism advisor believed Bin Laden had such ties to Iraq that is where he would head if he felt threatened?
------------------------------------------------
Perhaps you can explain why Bill Clinton on August 24, 1998, four days after the he launched cruise-missile strikes against al Qaeda targets in Afghanistan and Sudan (Osama bin Laden's headquarters from 1992-96), including the al Shifa plant. The missile strikes came 13 days after bombings at U.S. embassies in Kenya and Tanzania killed 257 people--including 12 Americans--and injured nearly 5,000. Clinton administration officials said that the attacks were in part retaliatory and in part preemptive. U.S. intelligence agencies had picked up "chatter" among bin Laden's deputies indicating that more attacks against American interests were imminent.
The U.S. had been suspicious for months, partly because of Osama bin Laden's financial ties, but also because of strong connections to Iraq. Sources say the U.S. had intercepted phone calls from the plant to a man in Iraq who runs that country's chemical weapons program.
Was Clinton just making that whole thing up??
---------------------------------------------
Now let's look at your man Joe Wilson, who in liberal parlance blew the lid off of Bushs cover up of WMD.
Have you read any of Joe Wilsons OP-ED after his trip to Niger, but before the Iraq liberation?
Let me help you out, Joe Wilson claimed in his articles not only that Iraq had WMD, but that he would also use them against us if he felt threatened. That's Joe Wilson talking, no friend of George Bush.
February 6, 2003: Joe Wilson wrote an editorial for the Los Angeles Times, A ‘Big Cat’ With Nothing to Lose, in which he claimed we should not attack Saddam Hussein because he will use his weapons of mass destruction on our troops and give them to terrorists.
There is now no incentive for Hussein to comply with the inspectors or to refrain from using weapons of mass destruction to defend himself if the United States comes after him.
And he will use them; we should be under no illusion about that.
THERE'S JUST A COUPLE OF FACTS FOR YOU TO DIGEST, CLINTONS LEAD TERRORIST EXPERT, BILL CLINTON ADMINSTRATION AND JOE WILSON ALL AGREED WITH GEORGE W. BUSH, AND NOT WITH YOU.
Posted by: Poppy at August 11, 2007 06:37 AM (dJFjD)
157
Heh.
Lighten up, CC. You keep this up, your head is gonna explode.
Posted by: Pablo at August 11, 2007 08:00 AM (yTndK)
158
Digismedia: ""where'd the WaPo get it's Lynch story? Are you saying they completely invented it (when, in fact, it was fed to them by military PAOs--""
Its pretty obvious you have no facts at hand and you apparently haven't even read the TNR articles.
How do we know the story was false, because TNR and beauchamp admitted it was false...duh!
And you may actually want to read the Wapo follow-up of their Lynch exclusive. THERE INFORMATION DID NOT COME FROM THE ARMY, OR ARMY PAOs. Their story came from intelligence officials in DC who were reading intelligence dispatches of Iraqi reports -NOT AMERICAN ARMY REPORTS. In fact it was the army that was trying to knock down the story.
Apparently you are another Beauchamp, Glass character who likes to write a nice sounding post but don't bother to see if you have a single fact straight.
By the way, like Beauchamp, do you also believe that Glocks have square bullet casings and that people fry their heads in ovens to committ suicide??
Posted by: Poppy at August 11, 2007 08:54 AM (dJFjD)
159
...why don't you talk about the temperment of dogs? How can you guys forget that? Why do you assume all dogs will just run out of the way when something like a bradley comes their way?
Thanks, gb, for proving that you haven't been paying attention.
The propensity for feral dogs (and Muslims do not keep dogs as pets for the same reason they do not raise pigs) to avoid large, noisy machines has been commented on several times here.
You also proved you've never been within earshot of a Bradley, or for that matter any military vehicle with tracks, such as an APC or tank.
They are big. And they are very very noisy. Thinking that they're as quiet as your Lexus is a big mistake, gb.
You have also shown that you don't bother to research what you are talking about before you put fingers to keyboard. There are multiple websites out there (and each word there is a separate link) that go into the specifications of the Bradley and even have pictures... some with people in close proximity so you can eyeball how big it is; though specifications are also readily available, so there is no excuse for not knowing that it is 10 feet, 6 inches tall and weighs approximately 50,000 lbs--that's 25 tons or approximately as much as four elephants. Logic would suggest that something that large and heavy would be somewhat more noisy than your average SUV.
In short, gb, all you've done is prove that you're a troll. You can go away now.
Posted by: C-C-G at August 11, 2007 09:22 AM (eUgIf)
160
Thanks for your concern, Poppy, but this is actually enjoyable for me. I like showing lefties how wrong they are about how the world works. It's stress release for me.
Posted by: C-C-G at August 11, 2007 09:24 AM (eUgIf)
161
You really know that right wingers are down to throwing air punches when they drag out their long, frayed, threadbare list of Lies They Keep Telling About Clinton. Clinton didn't bog us down in an Iraq quagmire. Clinton didn't call off the hunt for OBL in Astan to start a stupid war in Iraq. Clinton didn't fall asleep getting his portrait painted while terrorists put the finishing touches on their 9/11 plan. Clinton didn't grind our military into the dirt with this terrible military and foreign policy disaster called Iraq. These are all the lovely work of Geoge W. Bush and no matter how fond of your lies about Clinton you are, nothing changes that fact.
Posted by: digitusmedius at August 11, 2007 10:07 AM (Yp8Xe)
162
And, not to put too fine a point on it, not one of you has yet posted a single fact that refutes Beauchamps account. You've all made up a lot of fantasies about how none of it could be true but the only place their considered 'factual' is inside your imaginations.
Posted by: digitusmedius at August 11, 2007 10:10 AM (Yp8Xe)
163
"they're" for "their"
Posted by: digitusmedius at August 11, 2007 10:11 AM (Yp8Xe)
164
digitus, not to be argumentative since you're hooking me up with a playstation and all, but you're a tad bit mistaken with this statement:And, not to put too fine a point on it, not one of you has yet posted a single fact that refutes Beauchamps account. You've all made up a lot of fantasies about how none of it could be true but the only place their considered 'factual' is inside your imaginations.
The for instance here. The square-backed cartridges fired from the Glocks that only Iraqis use.
Things wrong with the statement that are backed by fact.
1) Civilian Contractors, British Military Members and US Military Members also carry Glock Sidearms.
2) There's no such thing as a "square backed" cartridge.
So theres one, unless, you know, you can show us a square backed bullet.
Sorry for shattering the one illusion. Keep the faith, stay strong, and don't forget to send me that damned XBox!
Posted by: scott thomas at August 11, 2007 10:22 AM (YgMQV)
Posted by: digitusmedius at August 11, 2007 10:24 AM (Yp8Xe)
166
Gee, I'd love to take your opinion for it, "S.T.", but the track record for right wing veracity doesn't warrant it.
Posted by: digitusmedius at August 11, 2007 10:25 AM (Yp8Xe)
167
Next up, the dog being sliced in half by the tracks of the Bradly. Have you ever seen a Bradley? I'll wait while you click the link. Back? Good. You'll notice the width of the tracks is pretty wide, roughly 24 inches.
A dog that was lying in the street and bathing in the sun didn't have enough time to get up and run away from the speeding Bradley. Its front half was completely severed from its rear, which was twitching wildly, and its head was still raised and smiling at the sun as if nothing had happened at all. Lets say the dog in that was "sliced in half" was a large breed, maybe a Rotty or something. Even if the Bradly track hits dead center it isn't going to slice. Have you ever tried to cut a steak with a 2X4? You're arguing against the laws of physics. How something 24 inces wide is going to slice something at most 60 inches wide in half and leave one part twitching and one part undsturbed is beyond the realm of reason.
Now, maybe you can use your brilliant wit here to explain how you're going to cut something in half with a blunt object. But I image I'll hear another diversion since your rapier type wit slices like a hammer. And dude where's my XBox????
Posted by: scott thomas at August 11, 2007 10:33 AM (YgMQV)
168
Not really sure where my "opion" came in to play on the square-backed cartridge. If you can provide pictorial proof, I'll buy in to it.
Really, don't you think you could pull something like that from the Glock web site? I've searched all over and haven't found a single square cartridge.
But you know, that's probably me being simple minded ReichWinger, but with your superior intellect you can definitely find us a picture on the intertubes...
Posted by: scott thomas at August 11, 2007 10:37 AM (YgMQV)
169
So, because you haven't found it on the web, the only possible conclusion you could think of was that it doesn't exist. That's pretty shoddy reasoning but I realize that's the right wing standard.
Posted by: digitusmedius at August 11, 2007 10:39 AM (Yp8Xe)
170
Digitus, it's been shown by the manufacturers of the Bradley that the vehicle cannot do what Beauchamp claimed.
There's your "single fact that refutes Beauchamp's account."
Ignore it if you wish, but if you keep claiming that we haven't said it, well, that makes you a liar.
Posted by: C-C-G at August 11, 2007 10:41 AM (eUgIf)
171
Hey, "S.T.", why do you assume that the dog was cut into two perfectly intact halves. Beauchamp never says that. It's only a simple minded idea which shows us the limits on your ability to reason. You could use a course in logical thinking.
Posted by: digitusmedius at August 11, 2007 10:43 AM (Yp8Xe)
172
On another topic, how widespread and popular is this idea written about yesterday by a Philadelphia columnist (who has since become a darling of the right wing media like Gallgher, Drudge and Gibson, so far):
"Is there any doubt they are planning to hit us again? If it is to be, then let it be. It will take another attack on the homeland [to] quell the chattering of chipmunks and to restore America's righteous rage and singular purpose to prevail."
How many of you actually hope that a lot more Americans get killed so you can try to play it to your political advantage? And what kind of sick idea of patriotism is that?
Posted by: digitusmedius at August 11, 2007 10:44 AM (Yp8Xe)
173
digitus, really, theres a reason you can't find it on the web.
Really, don't you think that Glock would have some mention about one of their firearms firing "square-backed" cartridges? Especially since it would deviate from the centuries old standard of round cartridges?
They'd be the first, world innovators, and yet, you're implying that either: a) They've kept it under wraps so only the Iraqis would have them or b) The ReichWing is so far stretching that it could keep a Global company from displaying one of its products.
Now, back to the slicing like a hammer...
Posted by: scott thomas at August 11, 2007 10:45 AM (YgMQV)
174
for CCG, with love:
The manufacturer's rep clearly admits he doesn't know what happened when he opens the quote above with "I can't pretend to know what may or may not have happened in Iraq." Then he goes on to pure speculation.
And that's the basis of all the right wing's attack on the diaries: pure speculation.
Posted by: digitusmedius at August 11, 2007 10:48 AM (Yp8Xe)
175
digitus,
First, quit trying to change the topic and explain the physics of the track slicing a dog in half. A simple youTube video of you slicing a steak with a 2X4 or a Hammer would suffice.
Second, do you really, in your twisted mind, think that people here would hope for the death of their friends and neighbors to keep a democrat out of office?
I'll be the first here to say that if Hillary taking office will ensure noone ever dies from another terrorist attack she has my vote.
But with Obama saying that he'll never use a nuke...well, lets just say I like to leave an option or two on the table and Mutually Assured Destruction has its perks.
Posted by: scott thomas at August 11, 2007 10:50 AM (YgMQV)
176
digitusmedius,
Make the baseless accusation that anyone here hopes for the death of their fellow Americans again I'll ban your silly ass. CY is tolerant of a lot of things, but that isn't one of them and since he's away and I have the keys I will step up.
Now, back to your civilized liberal denials please.
Posted by: phin at August 11, 2007 10:54 AM (YgMQV)
177
Even more incredible, an Austrian company sells their products, with "square backs", *only* to the Iraqis, and not to anyone else in the world, and they obviously use some kind of dna-coding in them so that *only* Iraqis can use them. And the "square backed" ammunition is *only* manufactured for the Iraqis.
With such a small production line, custom made for that small market segment, you kind of wonder how expensive they are to buy and use, and why the Iraqis dont just get a cheaper alternative, where ammunition is easier and cheaper to find.
(Oh, and just to be safe: /irony )
Posted by: Erik at August 11, 2007 10:54 AM (FK908)
178
Nice cherry picking, Digitus. Try these on for size.
In order for the scenario described to have taken place, there would have to have been collaboration by the entire crew.
The driver's vision, even if sitting in an open hatch is severely restricted along the sides. He sits forward on the left side of the vehicle. His vision is significantly impaired along the right side of the vehicle which makes the account to "suddenly swerve to the right" and actually catch an animal suspect. If you were to attempt the same feat in your car, it would be very difficult and you have the benefit of side mirrors.
The width of the track makes it highly unlikely that running over a dog would leave two intact parts. One half of the dog would have to be completely crushed.
As it is logically impossible to prove a negative, the burden of proof is now back on you, Digitus. Prove that it can be done without pointing us back to Beauchamp. Be sure to have your witnesses and/or experts sign with their name and rank, as many of those who say that it cannot be done have signed.
I anticipate that, instead, you'll continue to spin, however. Which proves my point for me very nicely, that you can't prove it can be done simply because it cannot be done.
Posted by: C-C-G at August 11, 2007 10:57 AM (eUgIf)
179
digitus,
If you're concerned that I'm pulling my "laws of physics" from the ReichWing media guide, maybe you could enlist the help of some friends with an understanding of applied sciences to help explain it to us.
Posted by: scott thomas at August 11, 2007 10:58 AM (YgMQV)
180
CCG
So in Coffey's opinion, never having seen how the Bradleys are used in Iraq by a 20-22 y.o. hotshot driver (who's been doing this now for, what, a year?) that it's "highly unlikely." Funny, how Coffey's story seemed to change depending on who was interviewing him. And why, like you buddy ST do you continue to assume that the dog was alleged to have been sliced neatly in two as with a scalpel when that was never what was claimed? But keep swatting at those gnats anyway. It's fun to watch.
Posted by: digitusmedius at August 11, 2007 11:05 AM (Yp8Xe)
181
ST, I'd love to talk physics with you. Exactly what "law of physics" are you referring to?
Posted by: digitusmedius at August 11, 2007 11:06 AM (Yp8Xe)
182
Digitus, prove that it can be done.
Enough spin. Time to put up or shut up.
Posted by: C-C-G at August 11, 2007 11:07 AM (eUgIf)
183
By the way, Digitus, you did know that vehicle manufacturers do extensive testing before shipping the units, right? I can't imagine that a Bradley that wound not do something at the test facility in the US (and BAE does have locations in desert areas of the USA) would suddenly gain the ability to do that thing in Iraq.
And the test drivers are generally professional drivers who can make a vehicle do things that even a young "hotshot" driver would never even attempt. The concept of a young driver being able to outdo a professional with years of experience is right out of Hollywood, and has nothing to do with reality. (You did know that movies don't accurately reflect reality, right? Guys in blue tights can't fly, for one.)
Posted by: C-C-G at August 11, 2007 11:13 AM (eUgIf)
184
Never claimed it was a scalpel like cut. I do however claim it would be damned near impossible to cut something as soft as flesh in half with a blunt object 24 inches wide.
Back to the first question. Where's your proof that the only Glocks in Iraq are being used by Iraqis? That should be the simplest of tasks.
Posted by: scott thomas at August 11, 2007 11:14 AM (YgMQV)
185
ST: I've got as much proof that they exist as you've got they don't. IOW, exactly none. Let's look at the bigger picture again, although I know you'd like to bog this whole discussion down into what's normal behavior for feral Iraqi dogs and what's impossible for a skilled Bradley driver to do. Can you tell us why the Army, having claimed that Beauchamp's story is false, and further claiming that he actually signed statements admitting that (which is just the opposite of what he told TNR before he was put incommunicado by the Army) won't release those statements or let Beauchamp talk to anyone? I mean, really, if he's admitting lying about this, wouldn't they want the whole world to see the proof?
Posted by: digitusmedius at August 11, 2007 11:21 AM (Yp8Xe)
186
I can't help but notice that no one has answered my question about the right wing hope for another big terrorist kill here in order to bolster Bush's sagging status and enable his renewed shredding of the constitution.
Posted by: digitusmedius at August 11, 2007 11:22 AM (Yp8Xe)
187
Scott Thomas:
If it'd help, I'd be happy to provide some chicken wire and cinder blocks. They were so very helpful in proving the fallacy of the government's version of what happened to the WTC, after all.
digitus:
Your mode of argumentation is clearly "if it COULD (under any circumstances) happen, then we are in no position to judge whether it DID happen."
That may score you points in high school debate ("Are you suggesting that this could NEVER happen? Hmmmmm?"). It may also persuade the Truther community about what happened on 9-11. ("Are you saying it's not POSSIBLE that the planes were remotely flown by Bush/Cheney/Rove into the WTC and the Pentagon?")
But in the real world, the issues are not only could it happen, but could it happen in the way it was described ?
In the case of square-jacketed Glock rounds, while it is POSSIBLE that there are such rounds, Occam's Razor (limit your assumptions) and the fact that NO ONE has ever seen such rounds (we're talking a lot of folks w/ lots of experience w/ guns and ammo) should make you skeptical. That the only person who has not only seen them, but would then RECOGNIZE THEM AS GLOCK ROUNDS is Beauchamp should raise even more questions.
Similarly, is it possible that a Bradley Fighting Vehicle could fly through the air, survive a 16 story drop, and continue to function? Insofar as the statistical probability is not zero, the answer must be yes.
But could such a vehicle, as part of a larger organization, do so with any regularity, while loaded with personnel onboard? And not be noticed, or draw down the wrath of not only the track commander, but also the unit commander (not to mention the fellow troops)?
That is the problem w/ the Bradley story, even leaving aside the physical issues Coffey, K. Anderson, and others have identified: How do you maneuver a vehicle that is supposed to be stable, across a surface that is NOT slippery, not once, but several times, in order to hit something that you cannot see at the time of the maneuver?
Like the Truther material, you are compounding assumption upon assumption, and your fall-back is "Well, you can't say it couldn't happen this way." At some point, there are so many assumptions that must hang together (and remembering that this isn't once, but several times) that the actual answer is that "No, it is so vanishingly small that it did not happen this way."
Posted by: Lurking Observer at August 11, 2007 11:22 AM (jsXUj)
188
CCG--prove that it can't be done. Enough b.s.
Posted by: digitusmedius at August 11, 2007 11:23 AM (Yp8Xe)
189
digitus will no longer be with us.
I warned him once, that was enough.
Posted by: phin at August 11, 2007 11:26 AM (YgMQV)
190
ST: how can your statement "no one has ever seen" a square back cartridge be a "fact?" Have you personally talked to everyone who's looked at the backs of all cartridges ever produced to be able to claim that? Your criteria for what you decide is a fact is as loose and worthless as what you decide is "proof" (which in your case is when you've made up your mind based on your opinions regardless of whatever facts may or may not have been discovered).
Posted by: digitusmedius at August 11, 2007 11:27 AM (Yp8Xe)
191
I can't help but notice that no one has answered my question about the right wing hope for another big terrorist kill here in order to bolster Bush's sagging status and enable his renewed shredding of the constitution.
Posted by: digitusmedius at August 11, 2007 11:22 AM
Good Lord, you must be blind.
digitusmedius,
Make the baseless accusation that anyone here hopes for the death of their fellow Americans again I'll ban your silly ass. CY is tolerant of a lot of things, but that isn't one of them and since he's away and I have the keys I will step up.
Now, back to your civilized liberal denials please.
Posted by: phin at August 11, 2007 10:54 AM
I guess that means you'll be going bye-bye now, Digitus, thus relieving you of the onus of proving that it can be done... or so you think.
However, I invite you to post your proof that Beauchamp's described maneuver could be done at my blog. Be warned, tho, I have the same tolerance for lefties that DU and DailyKos have for conservatives.
Posted by: C-C-G at August 11, 2007 11:27 AM (eUgIf)
192
digitus, if you'd like to plead your case, feel free to send me an e-mail.
Posted by: phin at August 11, 2007 11:30 AM (YgMQV)
193
He'll just sock puppet under another name, Phin.
Posted by: C-C-G at August 11, 2007 11:31 AM (eUgIf)
194
Since digitus seemed to share his perspective w/ several other folks (tbogg, sinestro), on the issue of square-backed rounds, it's hardly hypothetical.
Glock, as a manufacturer, has catalogs of its products. It's a business, remember?
So, either Glock makes these things for sale, in which case it's in their catalogs, or:
1. They're super-secret rounds;
2. They're one-offs.
3. They don't make such things.
This then rapidly resolves itself. If they make them and they're for sale, it'd be a simple matter to put a copy of the URL up.
If they're super-secret rounds or one-offs, then it becomes an interesting question of exactly how they could be secret, yet Beauchamp would know they were Glock rounds? (Of course, much would be resolved by showing a photo of such a casing.)
Or, of course, they don't exist at all.
And the burden of proof is with those who make the accusation. This is Beauchamp's story---the burden of proof is on him and his supporters.
Posted by: Lurking Observer at August 11, 2007 11:37 AM (jsXUj)
195
Of course, on the issue of the rounds, even if such rounds DID exist (per digitus, since it's possible it must be true), there's one other little question:
Are such square-backed rounds supplied only to the Iraqi police?
B/c that was the heart of his contention. He found square-backed rounds, knew they were Glock rounds, and more to the point, knew that only the Iraqi police were issued Glocks.
Posted by: Lurking Observer at August 11, 2007 11:40 AM (jsXUj)
196
But, Phin, he obviously thinks that conservatives are too dumb to know how to do that.
I am gonna keep an eye on my own humble blog's comments section, tho, just in case he decides to troll there.
And you know that he's now over at DU whining about the "intolerant right" because you banned him. Of course, he'll leave out the part about you warning him and his blatant comment that almost seemed designed to invite banning.
And the DUmmies won't bother to check here, either.
Ah, well, such is life.
Posted by: C-C-G at August 11, 2007 11:41 AM (eUgIf)
197
But, but, but, Lurking Observer, you can't prove that Glock provides only the Iraqi police with Square Backed rounds and that noone else hasn't stolen the a gun and the rounds and that STB isn't an international super seekrit ninja sent by Rove to expose the Iraqi Police as murderous Pig-Dogs, so it must be TRUEEEEEEEEEE!
/end digi type screed since he can't make it.
Posted by: scott thomas at August 11, 2007 11:43 AM (YgMQV)
198
Gee, I'd love to take your opinion for it, "S.T.", but the track record for right wing veracity doesn't warrant it.
IOW, everything you say is lies because I say you're all liars! Except for that Maj Lamb who was totally credible until I realized what he actually said! Lying Army liar! Pvt (E-1) Beauchamp is trooth!
Why are you here, digitus? It certainly isn't to learn or to educate.
Posted by: Pablo at August 11, 2007 11:44 AM (yTndK)
199
Scott, you forgot the black helicopters. -LOL-
Posted by: C-C-G at August 11, 2007 11:45 AM (eUgIf)
200
I should never have underestimated the right wing "pussy factor." Of course, CY had to ban/block me to this comment section. It's a lie, of course, that I was warned. What would he warn me to stop doing: beating the verbal crap out of him and all you other right wing running cowards? Thank God you're out on the fringe of America and humanity and really only amount to a bunch of screeching rodents heard in the distance. You're safe now. You can continue your lying to each other safe in the knowledge that big mean liberals won't come around to call you on your bullshit. I hope "Phin" can scrub out all my comments so you won't have nightmares when mommy tucks you in at night. Have fun jerking each other off.
Posted by: digitusmedius at August 11, 2007 12:00 PM (7FgWm)
201
It's a lie, of course, that I was warned.
Truth is a lie. Obvious is impossible. Black is white. Penn is Teller.
Posted by: phin at August 11, 2007 10:54 AM
Who you gonna believe? Digitus or your lying eyes?
Posted by: Pablo at August 11, 2007 12:04 PM (yTndK)
202
Since you're back, digitus, you can prove that what Beauchamp claimed a Bradley did is actually do-able.
And you know that it's impossible to prove a negative, so don't try spinning it around to me.
Posted by: C-C-G at August 11, 2007 12:05 PM (eUgIf)
203
You guys know what really sucks, I bet digi's not going to ship me that XBox now.
RE: The Black Helicopters.
Posted by: scott thomas at August 11, 2007 12:06 PM (YgMQV)
204
digitus, thanks for providing me with the abusive language I need to contact Comcast and have your service revoked.
Your comments won't be removed, they'll be preserved, that way Comcast can check them out and see, without a doubt, that you've violated their Terms of Service and have been using abusive language on a site that isn't yours. You were warned, then banned and now you're using a proxy and still using abusive language.
g'nite now...
Posted by: phin at August 11, 2007 12:13 PM (YgMQV)
205
Gotta give Digitus credit, his denial of reality really is astounding.
Posted by: C-C-G at August 11, 2007 12:25 PM (eUgIf)
206
Not only do I have extensive experience with carrying side arms while in uniform. I also have years of experience reloading my own amunition.
Anyone who knows anything about firearms should know a couple of things.
1. The barrell of a gun is round and has rifling which consists of lans and grooves which twist through the barrell like threads on a screw. These twists impart spin to the bullet, stabalizing it in flight and making it more accurate. This means that the projectile, the bullet, has to be round so it could fit tightly in the barrell and take the spin from the rifling. Also, if the bullet wasn't round, it wouldn't fit tightly in the barrell, sealing it and capturing the expanding gasses as they travel down the barrell accelerating the bullet and expelling it from the gun at a high rate of speed.
2. Pressure is what makes a gun work. The pressure of the expanding gasses as they explode push the bullet out of the barrell of the gun. The most efficient and strongest pressure vessel is ROUND so that it distributes the pressure evenly across the surface of the vessel. If it has square corners, those are weak points and if they didn't rupture they would still not be as efficient as a round vessel.
So, what does this tell us. We know bullets are round, so why would the base of the casings be square? Making the bases square would be an unnecessary and impractical step in the manufacturing process, not to mention it would greatly increase the cost of production. While I have seen glasses and vases that are round at the top and square at the bottom, it simply isn't practical to do the same thing in brass for a bullet. Aesthetics are not important in ammuniction production.
We also know that a square cartridge would not be practical from a physics standpoint as it simply would not function well at containing the pressure of exploding gas in a cartridge.
I believe anyone who knows anything about the above would readily admit that the square backed casings simply do not exist.
Posted by: K. Anderson at August 11, 2007 12:33 PM (bs0dv)
207
As far as digitus' insinuation that we right thinking conservatives who dearly love America (as opposed to democrats and leftists) would want another attack on our country, it is simply ludicrous.
We on the right want nothing more than to prevent any future attacks. That's why we are all for fighting muslim extremists on their own soil rather than our own.
Democrats are praying for another attack so they can blame it on Bush and say "See, he isn't protecting our country".
As with ALL of his arguments, they are really projections of his own views onto others.
Posted by: K. Anderson at August 11, 2007 12:37 PM (bs0dv)
208
My brother has been in the firearms manufacturing bussiness fo more than 25 years. He is a Design Engineer. I was the small arms instructor for my NG unit. I know whats going on in the firearms industry. For once and all; THERE....IS....NO....SUCH....THING....AS....A....SQUARE-BACKED....GLOCK....PISTOL....ROUND!!!!
PERIOD. END OF SENTENCE.
Posted by: Jack Coonan at August 11, 2007 01:15 PM (bAzyC)
209
I was MOS 11H for 4 years in the Army, with service in Desert Storm, and served with the 1st ID, 101st ABN, and 1st Cav. I've driven M113 APC's, and served in Bradley units.
The Bradley dog death dealer story is full of crap. Let's dissect it line by line. My comments will be in brackets.
I know another private
(by the way, why is Beaucamp a Private? I take that to mean he's and E-2, as no self-respecting PFC would call himself a Private. Why hasn't this clown been promoted above a mosquito wing? Or was he, and then got busted down. You should reach E-3 within 6 months of joining up.)
who really only enjoyed driving Bradley Fighting Vehicles because it gave him the opportunity to run things over. He took out curbs,
(how do you take out a curb? A curb is two inches high. What are you running over?)
concrete barriers
(if you hit a barrier with a Bradley, you're going to smash your BC (Bradley Commander and gunner, both of who outrank you, into the front of the turret. Not a wise move on the part of the driver)
corners of buildings,
(now the Bradley is more powerful than a wrecking ball, taking out corners of buildings. What is he hitting them with? The track? That's ludicrous. You'd throw that track right off the sprocket, then be stuck until an M88 came by to drag you back to base. Again, not something that your BC is going to let you do more than once before you get AR15'end, and removed from the driver's seat.)
stands in the market
(even better, now a 30-35 ton depending on the amount of armor bolted on, vehicle is running through stands in a market, like a car chase scene in the movies where someone ends up driving down the sidewalk, knocking hot dog stands down left and right. You don't drive a Bradley alone, you have an E4/E5 gunner, and an E5/E6/E7 BC. Does anyone think that they're going to let some buck private smash through a crowed market with their vehicle? Sort of bad for their next NCO ER.
and his favorite target: dogs.
Occasionally, the brave ones would chase the Bradleys, barking at them like they bark at trash trucks in America—providing him with the perfect opportunity to suddenly swerve and catch a leg or a tail in the vehicle's tracks.
He kept a tally of his kills in a little green notebook that sat on the dashboard of the driver's hatch.
(I've never driven a Bradley, so to the 11M's, is there a dashboard in an M2? You don't have on on the M113 series. If not, it's a dead giveaway this story is a crock.)
One particular day, he killed three dogs. He slowed the Bradley down to lure the first kill in, and, as the diesel engine grew quieter, the dog walked close enough for him to jerk the machine hard to the right and snag its leg under the tracks. The leg caught, and he dragged the dog for a little while, until it disengaged and lay twitching in the road.
(OK. Now Beaucamp shows that he's not an 11M (Bradley infantryman). You can't catch something in the track, since as others have pointed out, the track doesn't move once on the ground. It's planted on the ground when it's run over by the first road wheel, then stays put while the vehicle moves over it. You could run it over, but that's not what he's saying. He said the Private caught it, and dragged it down the road. You can't drag something down the road in a tracked vehicle unless it's caught in the top tracks, which are what (help me 11M's - 2 feet off the ground). Also, how would anyone know if it was in the road afterwards? Was the turret spun around 180 and the BC acting as a spotter to record what happened?)
A roar of laughter broke out over the radio.
(As someone said, the radio isn't a party line. Did they take turns keying the mike to record their laughter?)
Another notch for the book. The second kill was a straight shot: A dog that was lying in the street and bathing in the sun didn't have enough time to get up and run away from the speeding Bradley.
(Bradleys are a Klingon Warship with a cloaking device, and a sound silencer. They go 30-40 MPH, and are loud as hell. I find it hard to believe a dog can't get up and move 2 feet to get out of the way).
Its front half was completely severed from its rear, which was twitching wildly, and its head was still raised and smiling at the sun as if nothing had happened at all.
(A total fabrication. The tracks of a Bradley are so wide that unless the dog was the Hound of the Baskervilles, you wound'nt have much left on either side. You're not going to server it either, just crush it flat, as many Iraqis were during the 3rd night of the ground war in Desert Storm when we turned a Republican Guard unit into a speed bump.)
In sum, the dog running over story is total crap. I'm sure some fool has run over a dog in Iraq. But the stories recounted by Beaucamp are embellished fabrications. Just like the rest of his writings.
We've all know guys like this in the Army. Monday morning you'd ask them what they did over the weekend, and they'll tell you some wild story about going out to the club, picking up some hot chic, going back to her place, doing her down in the ground, all night long. Then you'd ask someone else about it, and he'd say no, they all went to some dump bar (like the Red Carpet Inn), shot pool till 11, then went back to the barracks and ordered a pizza. Just a bag of crap.
Posted by: I Kress at August 11, 2007 01:25 PM (oiCPM)
210
I don't understand why you guys who believe the Beauchamp story are so closed minded.
And Digitus: Typical liberal backwards thinking and assumptions about women. Who says I was fighting off the GI's and they weren't fighting me off?
Posted by: Carolynp at August 11, 2007 01:28 PM (5lcHQ)
211
Re: Glocks: It's been pointed out (by CY among others, IIRC) that Beauchamp probably meant to claim that the Glock's firing pin leaves a square imprint on the back of the (round) 9mm ammunition casing. This part of this claim would then go:
-- At the "crime scene", I found 9mm casings on the ground.
-- The casings had the distinct square indentations left by Glock firing pins.
-- Only Iraqi Police carry Glocks (9mm, with square firing pins).
-- Therefore, reader, you should deduce that the murder must have been committed by the I.P.
Suppose this patrol wasn't experienced by Beauchamp himself, but was a story he heard from a friend--or a friend of a friend, etc. Suppose further that Beauchamp doesn't know much about handguns, beyond the training he got and his experiences in Germany and Iraq. It seems easy to imagine that the casings-at-a-murder-scene story could be garbled up, and end up as the fake-but-accurate first-person account that was presented in the Diarist piece.
This version doesn't reflect well on Beauchamp's credibility or on TNR's skepticism or fact-checking, but it doesn't seem to stretch Occam's razor. Any thoughts from readers who know Glocks (I don't)?
Posted by: AMac at August 11, 2007 01:48 PM (Jj04x)
212
Well, seeings I'm on the record already, why not add to the mix a bit of reality for ole' Digi-Troll. Tell you what there homeboy: You fly into KWI (Kuwait International) and I'll pick you up, and I'll ride you out to Arifjan and then I'll let you see a Bradley up close and personal, and even let you climb in and see EXACTLY what people here are talking about.
Posted by: Big Country at August 11, 2007 02:02 PM (q7b5Y)
213
BC, he'd be scared to set foot on a military base. He clearly thinks that all service members are a step or two below Neanderthal.
Posted by: C-C-G at August 11, 2007 02:04 PM (eUgIf)
214
http://glockmeister.com/catalog/product_info.php/cPath/10_18/products_id/258
Above is a link to picture of a Glock firing pin.
NOT SQUARE TIPPED.
Posted by: Jack Coonan at August 11, 2007 02:06 PM (bAzyC)
215
Better pics- close up
http://glockmeister.com/fpupgrad.shtml
Posted by: Jack Coonan at August 11, 2007 02:24 PM (bAzyC)
216
"""And, not to put too fine a point on it, not one of you has yet posted a single fact that refutes Beauchamps account. You've all made up a lot of fantasies about how none of it could be true but the only place their considered 'factual' is inside your imaginations.
Posted by: digitusmedius"""
Pretty said that you simply cannot recognize a fact when you are shown it.
Simple FACTS:
1. There was not melted face women at FOB Falcon
2. Beauchamp couldn't have verbally attacked her due to the strain of war because he hadn't even been in a war.
3. Drivers of Bradleys can't see within 14 feet of the right side of the Bradley track.
4. The are no such thing as square shell casings.
5. Alot of people have Glocks in Iraq besides the Iraqi Police.
Its no wonder Bill Clinton and his liberal buddies managed to convince everyone for 8 years that Iraq was a huge threat and had WMD. That's why they engaged in a 8 year genocide of the Iraqi poeple in bed with Saddam Hussein. Clinton and the left killed far more Iraqis then Bush could ever dream of. Of course Clinton on went after the innocent Iraqis, the women, the children, at least Bush has gone after the terrorists.
Posted by: Poppy at August 11, 2007 02:34 PM (dJFjD)
217
Looks like digitusmedius is more of a digitusanalus
Posted by: Poppy at August 11, 2007 02:40 PM (dJFjD)
218
Thanks for the fact-check, Jack Coonan. My theory (1:48pm) was nice for the 18 minutes it lasted.
Hey, let me know if you want a recommendaton for this line of work. I know this magazine...
Posted by: AMac at August 11, 2007 02:41 PM (Jj04x)
219
I was just at my favorite neighborhood gun store and counted no fewer than 37 Glocks in the display case of which about 1/2 used the 9mm parabellum round (the NATO standard).
If little ole me can walk out my front door and in the space of about 20 minutes can find enough Glocks to arm an entire infantry platoon, what makes you guys think that on the most active battleground in the world I couldn't find 20 Glocks per square mile?
Yeah, only the IP carry Glocks...what a crock.
Posted by: K. Anderson at August 11, 2007 03:01 PM (bs0dv)
220
Thanks for the fact-check, Jack Coonan. My theory (1:48pm) was nice for the 18 minutes it lasted.
Hey, let me know if you want a recommendaton for this line of work. I know this magazine...
Posted by AMac at August 11, 2007 02:41 PM
Heh, Thanks! But I don't think that they'll be in business long enough for me to even get a resume updated. But relying on what they're (TNR) willing to believe..... I bet that I could come up with a resume that'd be "killah" (sic). But, alas I've my own company to run. Maybe you heard of it. It's called HOO-AHHS. www.hooahhs.com
Posted by: Jack Coonan at August 11, 2007 03:04 PM (bAzyC)
221
Wow. Just. Wow.
I haven't seen anybody cling so tenaciously to a delusional state outside of a clinical setting before. digitusmedius, seek help. Now. Your life will be much fuller and richer once you embrace the real world.
For instance, there is no such thing as a "square back cartridge." For reasons that K. Anderson explained nicely, there is absolutely no impetus to produce such a novelty. Yes, I can build one: but I ain't gonna because it's a waste of time and material for a reduction in performance.
Now, there is such a thing as a programmable bullet that you could use to kill someone standing around a corner, or hiding in a foxhole or even crouched behind a wall. But it doesn't work by changing its flight path. It works by exploding at the programmed range set by the operator and striking the target with shrapnel. And it doesn't come in 9 mm, but 25 and 40 mm (although the 40 is called a grenade rather than a bullet).
Lurking Observer, in response to 'middlefinger' you stated:
Similarly, is it possible that a Bradley Fighting Vehicle could fly through the air, survive a 16 story drop, and continue to function? Insofar as the statistical probability is not zero, the answer must be yes.
For future reference, just because a "statistical probability is not zero," does NOT mean that there is a possibility of somethng occurring. The "vanishingly small" point (where the possibility of something happening really does vanish) has a real number associated with it. That number is 1x10^±14, and was proven by a pair of mathematicians at Johns Hopkins Applied Physics Lab several years ago. (I didn't see the proof, and likely wouldn't understand it if I did. I'm sure it was published outside the Lab as well, but I don't know where~I just saw the announcement in the little glossy monthly that circulates inside the Lab to keep people informed of Lab news.)
Anyway, grab yourself a mechanical engineer and calculate the stresses involved in a Bradley falling 16 stories and you'll find that the vehicle will suffer catastrophic deformation. The possibility that it could continue to function is "vanishingly small," or outside the mathematical limit of 1x10^±14 that applies in this universe.
It's always good to see Beldar out and about the Interweb thingy, but I'm gonna disagree with his characterization of ditzymediocrity as a troll. Trolls are generally competent to care for themselves and know that the crap they spout is false, they're usually just trying to get a rise out of somebody. But this one, this one needs to be under medical supervision...he's a danger to himself and possibly others.
Posted by: EW1(SG) at August 11, 2007 10:45 PM (YcNsA)
222
Wow - I just got finished reading through the entire comments thread for this post. That was one helluva half-hour - and time I will never get back. Thank goodness for people like digitus! The more he (I am guessing he is a he - he could be a she - or a he-she or a she-he - you get the idea...) writes, the more proof we have of the pure insansity of those on the far left - and the danger of putting the left into power in '08. I am truly worried about what happens should Clinton/Obama/Edwards gets elected - we could be in for some deep stuff.
There were some great posts in there, but one really caught my eye. Poppy made a point about how many people were killed during Clinton's reign in Iraq. I had truly not thought about this before - but that is one heckuva point. I will bet that more "innocent" Iraqis were killed during the eight years Clinton was in office than during the entire Iraq war so far. Not to mention - one of the reasons why we are so hated by the rest of the world now (as those on the left love to say) is that we took away a huge funding source for some European countries when we shut down the Food for Oil scam.
I would love to see this point come up during the campaign next year - maybe even during a debate. Great point Poppy!
Posted by: Reptevye at August 12, 2007 12:51 PM (7NCmS)
223
I just wanted to point out one other thing, below is a link to a picture of a Bradley operating in Iraq.
http://www.gregspotts.com/photos/uncategorized/bradley300cropped.jpg
Please notice the crew and dismounts have tied their rucksacks on the outside of the hull. Our mythical driver is not going to be driving through walls, curbs or stalls because that would get the equipment, rucksacks and sponson boxes (the two boxes at the back of the Bradley ripped off) The ruck is where most people carried personal items. In mine there was always an extra roll of Skoal. If my driver knocked my ruck of the Brad to go through some stall or the side of a building and he is not doing to save the life of one of the dismounts he would wish that he was dead. That doesn't even cover what the BC or his Platoon leader would do to him if he knocked the TOW launcher or some mission critical equipment off the Bradley.
One other thought, no one has mentioned what the Iraqi's would do if some Mech Company ran wild through their town on a daily basis. The insurgents would make sure that this was splashed on every TV in the world. The owners of the houses and stalls would be coming in and asking for compensation for their house. You can't tell me that the Civic Action teams in these towns paying out these claims would keep silent? Yeah, right. Some LTC or full bird would ignore this, for what reason? So some private can have fun with a Bradley? I don't think so. These were the same people that made us call Chaplin moral officers so we would offend the locals and they are going to let all of that be ruined by some wild Mech Infantry company or worse one rouge private. HA!
Posted by: GREG at August 12, 2007 07:25 PM (dntel)
224
EW1(SG):
Thanks for the reference to "vanishingly small." I'll have to look that one up.
Sadly, if you read the thread regarding the (presumably) bad joke by Beauchamp, you'll see the latest defenders' arguments.
It would seem that the statistical meaning of "vanishingly small" is lost in the renewed argument "You can't say it can't happen, therefore, how do you know it didn't?"
Posted by: Lurking Observer at August 13, 2007 11:50 PM (JV3MD)
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Right Idea, Wrong Iranian Rocket
Fox News is running a story this morning that shows still photos from a captured insurgent video.
The story claims:
Dramatic video produced by Iraqi insurgents and captured in a raid earlier this week by U.S. troops clearly shows a battery of sophisticated Iranian-made rocket launchers firing on American positions east of Baghdad, Pentagon officials said Wednesday.
The video, captured during a raid on Monday by the 3rd Squadron, 1st Cavalry Regiment in northeast Nahrawan, shows insurgents setting up and carrying out an attack on Sunday, as well as an attack on July 11 that killed one soldier and wounded 15 others, officials said. The raid last month appeared to involve 34 launchers firing 107 mm Iranian-made rockets.
Not so fast there, Sparky.
This is one of the photos run in the Fox story:
Please note the size and shape of the rocket. Fox was smart in hedging its bets that (emphasis mine), "The raid last month
appeared to involve 34 launchers firing 107 mm Iranian-made rockets."
These aren't 107mm rockets.
These are:
I first published these two photos of captured Iranian rockets captured outside Forward Operating Base Hammer
on July 15.
You'll note that the crude launchers seem very similar in construction, but that the Iranian rockets in the Fox News story are far larger, and are of a different shape, than the verified 107mm rockets captured at FOB Hammer.
Iran seems to be shipping Iraqi insurgents some of their more deadly 230mm rocket variants.
I wonder if the insurgents ordered them via credit card from Iran's
www.terror.com.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
09:09 AM
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1
Well Fox could have mentioned the difference, but aren't they correct that 107mm were used last month and the new set are being used in the more recent attack?
Posted by: abw at August 09, 2007 11:27 AM (u9ka3)
2
Looks very like a Chinese design type 82 130mm rocket.
shown at sinodefence.com
The type 82 is 32kg (70 pounds) which would explain why they carry them with two people.
Most countries' rockets are much longer - at least 2 meters
Posted by: davidp at August 10, 2007 01:19 AM (ihAc/)
3
Depend on Fox News to get things wrong.
To me, they looked jury-rigged, but the cone doesn't look like it. I don't think Iran would have been involved, but then again they could have just painted over any markings. Unlikely, though.
Posted by: the_velociraptor at August 14, 2007 10:20 AM (tGf35)
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August 08, 2007
Ho-Hum: Yet Another False Media-Reported Massacre In Iraq
On Sunday, Reuters reported that the scene of a large massacre had been discovered near Baquba:
BAGHDAD, Aug 5 (Reuters) - Iraqi police said on Sunday they had found 60 decomposed bodies dumped in thick grass in Baquba, north of Baghdad.
There was no indication of how the 60 people had been killed, police said. Baquba is the capital of volatile Diyala province, where thousands of extra U.S. and Iraqi soldiers have been sent to stem growing violence.
Why did the police have such a hard time providing an indication of how the 60 people had been killed? Probably because there were no bodies to examine.
Via email from Major Rob Parke, U.S. Army:
Bob,
This story is false. We have had coalition soldiers looking for the last two days at the locations that IPs reported these bodies. We've asked all the locals in the area and they have no idea what we are talking about. We've gone to areas that might be close, gone to suspicious locations, all turned up nothing.
Most of the news stories all say the report stated decomposing bodies which would indicate if it was true, it happened before we arrived. Considering we discovered an Al Qaeda Jail, courthouse, and torture house in western Baqubah, it wouldn't surprise me if there were 60 bodies buried out there somewhere. Bottom line is we have done some extensive looking and found nothing.
This is the second large-scale massacre reported in major wire services in less than six weeks that seem utterly without merit; both Reuters and the Associated Press were duped by insurgents posing as police officers who claimed 20 beheaded bodies were discovered near Um Al-Abeed on June 28.
That was also false.
As I noted at the time:
..reporting in Iraq is very dangerous work, and insurgent groups and terrorists do target journalists for assassination.
But it is equally true that insurgent groups and terrorists also use the media to plant false stories, and that media organizations consistently fail to find credible, independent sources to verify alleged atrocities and attacks before presenting an alleged story as fact.
Further, it appears that some news organizations, through a combination of questionable news-gathering techniques, insufficient editorial practices and indifferent -perhaps intractable- management, are more susceptible to running false and fabricated stories than others, with the Associated Press and Reuters being among the worst offenders.
Throughout the Iraq War, and with seemingly increasing frequency over the past year, these media outlets have become increasingly reliant upon anonymous sources and questionable sources hiding behind pseudonyms to deliver "news" with no apparent basis in fact.
In some of these instances, these wire services have been forced to retract days later, as they have with the false Um al-Abeed beheading story. Sadly, the international and national news outlets that often carry the initial claims as "page one" material fail to do so with the refutations, leaving most media consumers with the impression that the original account was accurate.
Remarkably, these news organizations continue to employ the same reporters and editors that have published multiple erroneous or highly suspect claims, or who have consistently cited discredited or disreputable sources.
Further, these wire services continue to employ newsgathering techniques that rely upon anonymous sources with little or no direct involvement with the story being reported, and often publish these claims as absolute fact, without any indication they are publishing what is often, at best, hearsay.
The MNF-I refutation of the Um al-Abeed decapitation story states that the claim was "completely false and fabricated by unknown sources."
That isn't exactly true. Both Reuters and the Associated Press presumably know precisely who their sources were for this story, as they know who their sources were for other discredited stories.
They just as they certainly know, or should know, which of their indigenous reporters—"stringers," in industry parlance—have been providing these suspect or discredited stories, and which editors have allowed these stories to press based upon the flimsiest of evidence, which often does not meet the service's own stated reportorial standards.
To date, these wire services have consistently failed to visibly enforce standards of reporting, and in some instances, have promoted employees involved in using questionable sources and printing false claims. Once promoted, these same employees only further degrade editorial standards, leading to the public's increasing distrust of these news organizations.
Wire services are only as valuable as the amount of trust readers can invest in their reporting.
With now two debunked massacres and the continued slow-roasting of
The New Republic for their
refusal to deal honestly with the Scott Thomas Beauchamp articles in the last weeks alone, we're forced to realize that the
Weekly World News is not
closing their doors on August 27 because mock journalism is unpopular, but instead because larger news organizations crowded them out of the market.
(h/t to Michael Yon, who alerted me that he smelled a rat in this story all the way from his current location in Indonesia).
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
01:28 PM
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1
Funny how the MSM is perfectly willing to run with fake massacres/mass graves but completely ignore real ones like Yon documented.
Funny, as in maddening, not ha ha.
Posted by: Dick at August 08, 2007 02:46 PM (Qrjpn)
2
Why trust Army sources that are actually there? We need to get someone like Scott Thomas Beauchamp to find the graves!!
New Republic--The new Al-Reuters!
Posted by: fourpointer at August 08, 2007 02:48 PM (u1zYs)
3
The media is always content to show the "worst of the worst" whenever and however they can. The sad reality is that the majority of the newspaper reporters and journalists and 'sensationalist media' to include "GungaDan" Rather and Geraldo "On Sacred Ground" Rivera (who I had the distinct pleasure of giving a nastypaw to.... another story for another time) are more than likely going to make up any BS they can without leaving the safety of and comfort of their digs in the Green Zone or MNF-I HQ (Victory/Liberty) and actually get 'ass in the grass' with the boonie troops. The reality is they sit in their air conditioned bunkered rooms and make up all the crap they can as they go along... they especially LOVE being able to 'harsh on' the military, for the fact that their own personal cowardice is glaring in the light of true bravery.
They truly are the bottom feeders of the planet, and some day soon there will be a price to be paid... after all... this is the "Columbine Generation" thats fighting this war... and the majority of the soldiers I've met personally in the past 4 years have said they'd have no problem wasting a reporter if given half a chance... is it any wonder that this war has had so many press casualties?
Its probably why "GungaDan" never had the sac to go to the front line in this war... he knew his life wasn't worth a plugged nickel.
Posted by: Big Country at August 08, 2007 03:04 PM (q7b5Y)
4
It's almost as if the MSM wants us to lose...
Posted by: Exurban Jon at August 08, 2007 04:01 PM (N0doa)
5
Every time I see a report of large counts of dead bodies reported by the police and hospitals, I wonder whether or not we possibly get a DOUBLE count.
Posted by: Buford at August 08, 2007 04:16 PM (MjLi3)
6
It's not that the MSM is anti war it's just that they're on the other side.
Posted by: Capitalist Infidel at August 08, 2007 04:34 PM (Lgw9b)
7
The beauty about it is that by the time the M$M realize that they've shot themselves in the foot, their cred will be gone. It'll be too late and they'll have to rebuild from the ground up if they can. People won't remember what it is that gives them a bad feeling about the media, they'll just have a bad feeling.
Posted by: Mike H. at August 08, 2007 06:30 PM (h7fLw)
8
Funny as in how Major Rob Parke, U.S. Army has the time to email a partisan blogger but doesn't have time to tell Reuters that the report was incorrect?
If he's a PAO he's doing a pretty piss poor job.
Posted by: Ed at August 08, 2007 06:44 PM (bqeC3)
9
Ed, he no doubt realizes that asking for a correction from Reuters would be like asking you for ten good heartfelt words about George W. Bush.
He's being efficient and improvising. That makes him a very good soldier.
Posted by: Jimmie at August 08, 2007 06:46 PM (HEQXI)
10
Dear Exurban Jon,
"It's almost as if the MSM wants us to lose..."
There's no "almost" to it. The MSM does want us to lose...and that's why we must, and shall, win.
Once this is all over, and we're victorious, I imagine this little chat will go on in Pinch Sulzberger's office:
"You have to answer for Al Qaeda, Pinch. Sit down. Get him a drink. Bin Laden is gone. So are Zarqawi, Zawahiri, Al-Sadr, the Iranians, CAIR, and the entire Saudi royal family. Today we've settled all family business. Now who approached you? Bin Laden or Zawahiri? Good, that's what we thought. Your punishment won't be death: it'll be worse than that--you'll be irrelevant. You're finished, through, out of the nation's business. There's a car outside which will take you to the airport. Just don't tell me you're innocent. It insults our intelligence and makes us very angry...
Posted by: MarkJ at August 08, 2007 06:46 PM (ZFVlP)
11
I missed the part in the story where Reuters either contacted the Major (or anyone in the army) to confirm or deny their story or where the Major (or Reuters for matter) said the Major didn't try to clear up the story. If Ed could point that out for me, that would be great.
Posted by: buzz at August 08, 2007 08:24 PM (rQuaK)
12
Ed
You fool tool.
The story was on the wire and the military had to go look at the facts which took a while.
Even if he told the newsies and got a retraction the idea was already in the wild and accepted wisdom and a correction probably wouldn't even register.
Posted by: YardBird at August 08, 2007 08:26 PM (1aM/I)
13
Even if the wire guys corrected or retracted their stories the end user editors would chunk it because they would not put up a headline basically saying hey subscribers we told you trash a few days ago with the same amount of placement or space the original story got.
Posted by: YardBird at August 08, 2007 08:31 PM (1aM/I)
14
Ed said: Funny as in how Major Rob Parke, U.S. Army has the time to email a partisan blogger but doesn't have time to tell Reuters that the report was incorrect?
If he's a PAO he's doing a pretty piss poor job.
Funny as in how Reuters reporters/editors are too lazy to pick up the phone or send an email to the PAO in the area to seek confirmation and/or additional details for the story before they publish fiction.
Seems some newspaper folk are doing a piss poor job.
Posted by: Dogwood at August 08, 2007 08:34 PM (5QQqt)
15
I understand exagerating stories, or even believing a stringer's story, to get a story to my boss. But eventually, I am an American, ( or a westerner) and I have a conscience. And I would at least start checking my stories, so as not to lie to my own country.
Posted by: plainslow at August 08, 2007 08:34 PM (A5i2e)
16
But you see, plainslow, many reporters consider themselves "citizens of the world."
Posted by: Jeff Medcalf at August 08, 2007 09:11 PM (7Q2cA)
17
Jimmie,
Perfect comeback to the dope. I only wish I had thought of it first.
Posted by: Brian at August 08, 2007 09:19 PM (57eZX)
18
"Funny as in how Major Rob Parke, U.S. Army has the time to email a partisan blogger but doesn't have time to tell Reuters that the report was incorrect?"
Ed: Parke responded to a query from an outside inquirer. That's part of his job. You have no way of knowing whether he attempted to contact Reuters to correct their report. Since you are an interested party, I suggest you write to him and ask. You can share his reply with us; I'm sure it will be interesting.
Posted by: Brown Line at August 08, 2007 09:34 PM (5sFXV)
19
It doesn't come down to a political byass but a 24 hour news cycle to be filled.
Posted by: Adam the Great at August 08, 2007 10:34 PM (mJwtk)
20
They're not on the other side. They're way beyond the other side.
They're seriously mentally ill.
And it maybe is even worse than that, being as how it appears to be an absolute willful mental illness.
That's gotta be incurable.
Posted by: organshoes at August 08, 2007 10:50 PM (eUao7)
21
I fail to see why the military should waste any time protecting "journalists" like these. Let their natural allies, al Qaeda, take care of them.
Posted by: Ken Hahn at August 08, 2007 11:10 PM (uT2/F)
22
Their insanity stems from their reaction to last November's elections. After the Dems took back congress, the anti-war crowd leapt beyond "hoping" and convinced themselves the war HAD BEEN LOST. They didn't reckon on a new counterinsurgency strategy. Now they're desperate to RE-lose it.
I've always had a hard time understanding people like that. But watching this war, I've come to realize that they seem to honestly believe "if there were no armies, there'd be no wars". Yeah, and beggars would ride.
Posted by: JeanneB at August 08, 2007 11:13 PM (U0iMs)
23
Maybe it would save time if we just started keeping track of the reports by the mainstream media that aren't full of crap?
Posted by: Rickbert at August 09, 2007 01:30 AM (xn5Au)
24
I think they will have to exaggerate the counts more and more to get attention.
Twenty to sixty. Next will be 200.
Posted by: M. Simon at August 09, 2007 02:35 AM (aciBF)
25
The eager acceptance of such horrible fictions by the formerly mainstream media (fMSM)isn't hard to figure: for the last couple of years, bad news from Iraq has been easy to find. The biggest challenge the fMSM faced was finding new antiwar metaphors and cliches, as the old ones were used to death.
Now, suddenly, the tide has turned. The fMSM is desperate - it needs its fix of bad news for America in Iraq. So it readily and unquestioningly accepts the fictions which fit the predetermined profile, no matter how slanderous of American military personnel they may be.
The results of the favored leftist strategy of retreat and defeat are well known, having been writ in broad bloody strokes across Vietnam, Laos, and Cambodia shortly after American troops departed. Unlike Macbeth, the blood on their hands doesn't bother them a bit.
Posted by: Jim Addison at August 09, 2007 02:49 AM (uqc7t)
26
If I'm an Iraqi I'd keep my head down. Enough of this crap will give AQI ideas. This is beginning to look like an "if wishing could make it so" kind of approach by the MSM. A 'Directorial' approach if you will. Who knows, perhaps by take 4 or 5 the AQI bastards will get the message and as any good character actor would, learn to 'live' the part. I can hear it now: "All right everybody and !ACTION!" "Pan over the bodies slowly" "CUT, CUT" "O.K. where are the bodies?" "Look Al you just don't get it." "I need those bodies for this scene" "That's right. I need a really gruesome scene here to get the feel that I want for this meme. So come on guys get with the program" "We need more bodies. All right everybody, !PLACES! and !ACTION!" Signboard: "Massacre in Iraq, Take 6"
Who knows, maybe if the hired Oliver Stone?
Posted by: John Fingr at August 09, 2007 04:48 AM (01DlV)
27
Its pathetic how invested the Democrats, the media, and the jihadis are in a bringing about a US defeat in IRaq.
Posted by: TMF at August 09, 2007 07:09 AM (+BgNZ)
28
JeanneB, I agree. The Anti-war crowd thinks our military creates an enemy, so in their pipe dream, if we didn't have armed forces, there wouldn't be people killing us. I think the lefty crowd might kill some Al Qaeda operatives, they might die from laughter!
Posted by: Tom TB at August 09, 2007 07:20 AM (M7kiy)
29
Mike H: "The beauty about it is that by the time the M$M realize that they've shot themselves in the foot, their cred will be gone. It'll be too late and they'll have to rebuild from the ground up if they can. People won't remember what it is that gives them a bad feeling about the media, they'll just have a bad feeling."
I share the sentiment, but that's not actually something to be happy about. Most people don't and won't trust blogs for their news either. Remember that some 80% of the US population still doesn't use the internet regularly. They'll be left with no news that they trust. Rumors and prejudice will take over and public opinion will go from being distantly related to reality to being completely divorced from it. Like in the Middle East.
Posted by: Stacy at August 09, 2007 07:21 AM (N8+Yj)
30
When I was a kid, I watched professional wrestling on TV. That it was fake was obvious to me even at that early an age. One particularly enjoyable event in every match was to say the villain hold the ringrope (an illegal move) while pummeling the good guy. The crowd would go crazy yelling at the ref while the ref looked everwhere but at the foul. No one in the crowd seemed to understand why the ref couldn't see the foul. I would yell into the TV, "its because he's in on it you idiots."
Time has changed nothing. AP and Al-Reuters keep falling for the same planted stories by the terrorists while we yell foul from the audience. Folks, get your head in the game. There is no unseen foul. This is not incurable bad editing and inexplicable lazy reporting. They are in on it you idiots!
Posted by: willis at August 09, 2007 10:42 AM (jyN1i)
31
but doesn't have time to tell Reuters that the report was incorrect?
Of course you can show he never did right?
Its a pretty sad commentary when the military, in addition to all their other responsibilities, is now responsible for enforcing factual content on the media...because apparently the media is prone to just "making shit up" and they can't be trusted to tell the truth.
Posted by: Purple Avenger at August 09, 2007 11:00 AM (RfG2Y)
32
Two quick points. I side with you, Mike H, but the fact remains (unfortunately): The only folks who have a bad feeling are those who know why. You and I. The remainder are either complacent, don't care or refuse to face the fact by way of interference with the success we enjoy. How long will people (we) be fooled into thinking it will correct itself or just go away? It's back in our laps (yours and mine). Make someone understand. Keep up the good work. To Exurban Jon: ... and they are not the only one. Dig out the old John Stormer books and re-read them. You will see that 'None Dare Call it Treason' and that 'The Death of a Nation' is pending if we don't lose the couch potato attitude. There is a single power behind and under it all. Rots a ruck. Don't we still owe N. Korea for the USS Pueblo? How did we ever let that one go so (this) far?
ps I refer to 'we' as one because it's about time this Nation stands as a single individual and begins to shepard the herd rather than be one of. Someone needs to start dropping the us and them (and it won't be them). We may not succeed together, but we will fall together.
Posted by: wwjpalmer at August 09, 2007 11:13 AM (md9t5)
33
As long as I hit on books, let me just refer an oldie I personally think EVERY AMERICAN should read. If ever there were a parallel ...
"Peace is Where the Tempests Blow"
Bravo Valentine Kataev, who in 1937 pointed out the potential path of America. The best way to avoid something is to know how it works.
Posted by: wwjimpreviouswwjpalmer at August 09, 2007 11:30 AM (md9t5)
34
I sent a copy of the response to the folks at iCasualties, they generally do pull casualty counts from false stories, but this one is still there today. I suspect it will remain in their count until Reuters or whoever made the initial report issues a correction. But, to be fair, that site doesn't claim to be accurate, they simply tally media reports and so are easy tools of people wishing to issue false reports in order to get counts up to influence public opinion.
Posted by: crosspatch at August 09, 2007 11:37 AM (y2kMG)
35
The power plays on both sides of the line. It corrupts the ones it can't convince.
Posted by: wwjim at August 09, 2007 11:41 AM (md9t5)
36
Honestly, don't know who to trust on this one. Haven't heard of it, and Reuters didn't directly accuse anyone of starting the "massacre". Then again, the Army's told some lies, but so has the media.
In this case, seems that Reuters is wrong.
Posted by: the_velociraptor at August 14, 2007 10:24 AM (tGf35)
37
this has been compared to my lai and it got me to wondering if we have not been told the truth about my lai. the press hated the vietnam war and loved showing the u.s. as the bad guys. does anyone know if what the press reported on my lai was only partally true or even an out right lie.
Posted by: stunhaha7878 at August 14, 2007 06:30 PM (qppR1)
38
AP gets most of its stringer reports from a guy called "Khalil", who seems to be on very good terms with the insurgents. He's generated numerous discredited reports, but when Yon challenged his bona fides with AP, they gave him a song and dance which boiled down to saying they didn't have much choice because they had no other sources. No change being contemplated.
Yon had his correspondence with them posted at one point, but I can't locate it now.
Posted by: Brian H at August 16, 2007 03:19 PM (c/wMt)
39
I, personally, have been to Iraq (Jan 2007), and have interviewed dozens of soldiers, marines, and airmen. I was also amazed that I was the ONLY American photographer at the 15 Jan 2007 press conference of Gen. Casey and the Iraq Ambassador, describing the "troop surge" and new "rules of engagement", which would allow U.S. troops to operate without restrictions anywhere within Baghdad, specifically within Sadr City. (Perhaps the main stream media only reports what it wants to report!)
I am also an admirer of Michael Yon and Bill
Roggio reports because they mirror what the troops told me. If I am allowed to, I plan to return to Iraq in either Dec 2007 or Mar 2008 to continue to report the "truth" as compared to the biased picture the main stream media "gatekeepers" choose to publish.
When I returned home, I submitted dozens of stories detailing Iranian and Syrian nationals involvement in attacks on our troops. However, no one would publish those stories because they were "too controversial" at that time. "Amazingly", these issues are NOW being reported by the MSM in August of 2007!
Andrew Kean, (author of "The Cult of the Amateur") , in a June 6, 2007 C-SPAN interview, dismisses the bloggers/independent journalists as working for little or no pay, in part because they have no "editor" to restrict or censor them: In fact, I think his main "problem" with "Web 2.0" is that the citizen journalists work for little or nothing, thereby threatening "pro" journalists livelihood. I feel that if the main stream media refuses to publish the FACTS from direct interviews of the people involved, regardless of the "lack of credentials: a degree, or paying their dues by working as an apprentice to a main stream media reporter", then intelligent people need to seek sources of information on the Web or from bloggers to get the facts. (I personally think that most high profile journalists are too scared to visit Iraq to interview the troops or Iraqi citizens to find out what is REALLY happening!)
As informed citizens know, there are many important stories that the main stream media chooses not to report, for whatever reasons. I appreciate the efforts of established, reputable bloggers (reporters) to give us the truth that the main stream media either refuses or ignores in its reporting.
Posted by: Greg Janney at August 19, 2007 12:33 AM (EfDG8)
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Deceiver
In the New York Times this morning:
In an e-mail message, Mr. Foer said, "Thus far, we've been provided no evidence that contradicts our original statement, despite directly asking the military for any such evidence it might have," adding, "We hope the military will share what it has learned so that we can resolve this discrepancy."
And in the
Washington Post:
But New Republic Editor Franklin Foer is standing his ground. "We've talked to military personnel directly involved in the events that Scott Thomas Beauchamp described, and they corroborated his account," Foer said. The magazine granted anonymity to the other soldiers it cited.
And also at
WaPo:
Foer said the New Republic had asked Maj. Steven Lamb, an Army spokesman, about the allegation that Beauchamp had recanted his articles in a sworn statement, and that Lamb had replied: "I have no knowledge of that." Before going incommunicado, Beauchamp "told us that he signed a statement that did not contradict his writings for the New Republic," Foer said.
"Thus far," he added, "we've been provided no evidence that contradicts our original statement, despite directly asking the military for any such evidence it might have."
In both newspapers, Foer issued the statement that "we've been provided no evidence that contradicts our original statement, despite directly asking the military for any such evidence it might have."
That, gentle readers, is a deception.
TNR senior editor Jason Zengerle has admitted to receiving an email from U.S. Army PAO Renee D. Russo that as far as the "burned woman" claim in "Shock Troops" goes, that:
"a couple of soldiers did say that [they] heard rumors about the incident, but nothing based on fact. More like an urban legand [sic]."
This was published at
National Review Online's The Corner in an email from Zengerle to John Podhoretz.
I'd note further that Zengerle claims here that he got this information only
after the editors at
The New Republic posted their August 2 goal-post moving claim that Beauchamp changed both the date and location of the alleged verbal abuse (From FOB Falcon after Beauchamp had been scarred by the horrors of war, to Camp Beuhring, Kuwait, before he ever entered combat).
No one at
TNR seems willing to address the obvious fact that for one to blame his callousness on being psychologically traumatized by the horrors of combat,
it is necessary to first be in combat.
By shifting this critical goalpost, Beauchamp is admitting that not only had he not "seen the elephant," he hadn't even been to the zoo.
And probably much to Foer's chagrin, it isn't just the military that is disputing this claim.
Last night I posted an email from a contractor at Camp Arijan, Kuwait, where Beauchamp seems to have been suffering from "pre-traumatic stress disorder."
William "Big Country" Coughlin has been at Camp Arijan since February, and
flatly denies that such a woman exists:
I've been in the Middle East since March of 2004. I started contracting with CACI and have worked for KBR as well. I have had one six month break 'in service' from October of 2006 to February of 2007. (I had to let the kids remember who Dad was and who was paying the bills!) I was in Baghdad at Camp Victory for 22 months, and I have been here on Arifjan since February of this year, and NEVER have I seen ANY female contractor with ANY sort of wounds described by PV2 Beauchamp. I work EXTENSIVELY with ALL aspects of personnel here on Arifjan and can say without a doubt that he's full of it.
Also, for the record, in my experience, ANY and ALL contractors who are wounded in any way, shape or form are usually evacuated posthaste due to the liability issues involved with the companies that hired them. KBR and CACI both had in place strict rules regarding hostile action and evacuation of ANYONE who might have been wounded or otherwise "injured in line of duty" so as to cover themselves legally in case of potential lawsuits and otherwise.
The idea that a female contractor with a 'half melted face' beggars belief...
Let's look at the facts as we now know them:
- "Scott Thomas" published three separate stories in The New Republic.
- "Scott Thomas" made two claims in his second article, "Dead of Night," that were flatly false:
- That he saw a spent "square-backed" pistol cartridge. As a firearms "expert" who deals with literally dozens of different kinds of pistol, rifle, and shotgun ammunition on a near-daily basis, I flatly deny that such a thing exists. Please feel free to quote me on that.
- Beauchamp claims that the "square-backed" cartridge was proof that the Iraqi Police were involved in the shooting, because "The only shell casings that look like that belong to Glocks. And the only people who use Glocks are the Iraqi police." Someone should tell that to the New York Times, military press releases, video-sharing web sites and other media outlets that would have shown that Glocks are very common in Iraq.
- Glocks are quite likely the most ubiquitous handgun in Iraq, carried officially or unofficially by those on all sides, and those on no side at all.
- A simple Google search would have disproved both of these claims made in "Dead of Night" within seconds or minutes.
- This strongly suggests that The New Republic did not even make a cursory attempt to fact-check "Dead of Night" before publication.
- Beauchamp's stories has been flatly denied by named U.S. Army PAO's Col. Steven Boylan (PAO to General Petraeus), LTC Andy Sams, Major Steven Lamb, Major Renee D. Russo, and Major Kirk Luedeke.
- Beauchamp's First Sergeant Hatley also flatly refuted the claims.
- Contractor William "Big Country" Coughlin has been at Camp Arijan since February, and flatly denies seeing such a woman.
- TNR senior editor Jason Zengerle admits to have received email from PAO Russo stating that this story was regarded as an urban legend or myth, but refuses to publish this contradictory account.
- TNR has not named a single witness, of any type. This included not only the soldiers they granted anonymity, but the civilian personnel they said they spoke with at the company who manufactures the Bradley IFV (BAE Systems), who are presumably not subject to a military gag order. TNR would not even disclose the name of the manufacturer, much less who their experts were, or precisely what they said.
- TNR has failed to cite or name the forensic experts they spoke with, reveal the questions they asked, or reveal their expert's responses.
- TNR has failed to cite or name the current or former solders they spoke with, what their qualifications were, reveal the questions they asked, or reveal their expert's responses.
- TNR has failed to cite or name the journalists they spoke with, explain why they are more qualified than TNR's own crack staff, reveal the questions they asked, or their expert's responses.
- TNR has utterly failed to address the obvious fact errors in "Dark of Night" that seems to prove their lack of fact-checking prior to the publication of that article.
- TNR has purposefully and willfully deceived their readers when they claimed "all of Beauchamp's essays were fact-checked before publication," as the various Glocks-in-Iraq-related links above abundantly prove beyond any shadow of a doubt.
- TNR did not present conflicting accounts from Major Luedeke or Major Lamb denying Beauchamp's claims as "urban legends of myths" and as "false".
Someone please explain to me why we should have any faith at all in what Franklin Foer, Jason Zengerle, and the other editors and reporters at
The New Republic claim. They've proven they have not fact-checked articles they claim to have fact-checked prior to publication, they have not proved a single named credible source to support their charges, and they refuse to admit that their time-shifting, country-hopping "burned woman" claims have completely undermined the premise of the entire article.
I cannot think of a single reason that we should trust them, when all they seem to be trying to do is muddy the waters
just enough that they might possibly escape with their careers intact.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
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1
Due to the wordings of the TNR defense positions it is unclear how many anonymous sources they have. Many claims are one soldier etc. They could be one person with multiple incidents.
Questions
How many unique sources do they have and how many confirmed each item they defended.
How many were confirming the "burned woman" story until it got moved to another country.
Posted by: YardBird at August 08, 2007 10:10 AM (1aM/I)
2
When one beats a dead horse one simply looks foolish, and people walk by, shaking their heads.
But, beating a live python to nake it go away is a really bad idea. It just gets more determined, and gathers more facts, more dates, more names, more mistatements of fact, more people willing to be quoted by name, with more witnesses coming out of the jungle to jump on the python's back, as more and, more spectators gather to watch in fascination as the giant snake squeezes, and squeezes, as the helpless prey makes fewer, and fewer, and less, and less intelligable noises.
Posted by: Bill Smith at August 08, 2007 11:14 AM (DvkLe)
3
It's one thing to become "political roadkill", but it's another to be run over by your own vehicle.
Posted by: Neo at August 08, 2007 11:34 AM (Yozw9)
4
Trackbacked by The Thunder Run - Web Reconnaissance for 08/08/2007
A short recon of what’s out there that might draw your attention, updated throughout the day...so check back often.
Posted by: David M at August 08, 2007 12:06 PM (gIAM9)
5
If you are confused about all the back-and-forth on the Beauchump story, we've created a helpful primer: http://exurbanleague.com/2007/08/08/beauchump-status.aspx
Posted by: Exurban Jon at August 08, 2007 01:17 PM (N0doa)
6
The only reason I can think for TNR to fall for Beauchamp's garbage and be so sloppy with their fact checking is that, well, they wanted to believe it true.
Sad. I used to have a lot of respect for that magazine, even when I disagreed with it. Now it's just another birdcage liner.
Posted by: Anthony Ragan at August 08, 2007 05:22 PM (mT12M)
7
It does make one wonder if anyone is in charge at TNR. If they had just said, "Oops, our bad," early in this mess, it would have been embarrassing but over without too much damage.
Instead we get this Nixonian stonewalling where not only is Beauchamp caught lying, but Foer and Zengerle as well. It's clear that they are going to fight to the bitter end, as though the burden of proof is on others.
I guess you could say this approach worked for CBS. Mapes was fired and Rather forced to retire early, but no one in CBS ever admitted outright that CBS had publicized a story based on fake documents.
There needs to be consequences for this sort of malfeasance. That's another reason--in addition to the honor of our soldiers fighting of course--that it's important to keep pressing on TNR.
Posted by: huxley at August 08, 2007 08:08 PM (8q2Fl)
8
:Shrug: I didn't subscribe to TNR before 'Scott Thomas', and I see no reason to subscribe to it now. Money talks, 'Thomas' walks.
Posted by: Clioman at August 09, 2007 05:46 AM (CNAh+)
9
I'm curious.
Just how was TNR collecting these corroborators?
Please tell me they DIDN'T have Beauchamp working as their OMBUDSMAN on this story to do the after action fact checking....
Posted by: mrclark at August 09, 2007 09:28 AM (RTegJ)
10
Just how was TNR collecting these corroborators?
Presuming they exist at all (which is suspect), they had to have been recommended by STB. Who else would have been in a position to know who could vouch for his bullshit story?
Posted by: Purple Avenger at August 09, 2007 11:03 AM (RfG2Y)
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August 07, 2007
Another Camp Arifjan Account
An email just in from a long-term contractor at Camp Arifjan, Kuwait, where Scott Beauchamp says he verbally abused a female contractor, and the New Republic refuses to admit that they've been "Glassed" yet again:
I've been in the Middle East since March of 2004. I started contracting with CACI and have worked for KBR as well. I have had one six month break 'in service' from October of 2006 to February of 2007. (I had to let the kids remember who Dad was and who was paying the bills!) I was in Baghdad at Camp Victory for 22 months, and I have been here on Arifjan since February of this year, and NEVER have I seen ANY female contractor with ANY sort of wounds described by PV2 Beauchamp. I work EXTENSIVELY with ALL aspects of personnel here on Arifjan and can say without a doubt that he's full of it.
Also, for the record, in my experience, ANY and ALL contractors who are wounded in any way, shape or form are usually evacuated posthaste due to the liability issues involved with the companies that hired them. KBR and CACI both had in place strict rules regarding hostile action and evacuation of ANYONE who might have been wounded or otherwise "injured in line of duty" so as to cover themselves legally in case of potential lawsuits and otherwise.
The idea that a female contractor with a 'half melted face' beggars belief. If in fact there was such an unfortunate individual around, they would have been evacuated as soon as humanly possible. Hope this helps!
Best Regards
William "Big Country" Coughlin
We've had several weeks for
the New Republic to provide something,
anything, in the way of actual proof. They have failed, and stories such as this of William Coughlin add to an ever-expanding list of those who dispute their claims.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
07:10 PM
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1
I don't think the woman was supposed to be freshly wounded - just with a very damaged face, healed but deformed.
On the other hand, relocating the story to a transit base while seeing her for weeks (is that the story - I'm working from memory) drops the plausibility to very low.
Posted by: davidp at August 07, 2007 07:22 PM (00J+R)
2
davidp
I think the point "Big Country" conveyed is, any contractor wounded is shipped out of Iraq post haste or ASAP. IOW, don't stay stay to heal even - as soon as they are stable enough to transport the companies get them out of there.
Posted by: Topsecretk9 at August 07, 2007 07:32 PM (0rJrY)
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Bottom line -- Beauchump lied, TNR's credibility died.
Posted by: Bill M at August 07, 2007 08:08 PM (z/wdv)
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I think the final stage in this "Decline & Fall of the 4th Estate" episode will probably be another rationally deluded effort to confuse the standard for proof. Similar to Mapes and Rather's intentional blurring of standards for objective proof.
For instance, it is rationally reasonable to conclude one has "no proof of fraud" vs. one having "proof of no fraud." Mapes and many on the left intentionally flip the proof construct so as to further delude the confused souls who comprise their political constituency. Mapes continues to demand the standard that their bogus documents be proved absolutely false, which is akin to requiring total proof of no cancer: it can't be done without a sample of the entire population of data (meaning testing every cell in your body at the expense of your life to establish the proof). That pseudo-intellectuals on the left fall into unfortunate traps is a real statement regarding their apparent conceptual disability.
Regardless of their efforts, critical thinkers probably want to regard those that actually read publications like TNR (for serious, concurring opinion) as individuals unsafe for any real responsibility.
Posted by: redherkey at August 07, 2007 09:11 PM (kjqFg)
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Speaking of Mary Mapes... is she working at TNR now?
Posted by: C-C-G at August 07, 2007 10:04 PM (8QZAZ)
6
What do you know! The right side of the blogosphere
is covering the backs of the troops from the enemy within.
Posted by: Hugh Beaumont at August 07, 2007 10:46 PM (6ZhrA)
7
a little poem commemorating The "Scoop" Bochamp story
El Reeve's Tale
http://cruxy.com/info/10921
enjoy
and good work, folks
Posted by: Jed Marlin at August 07, 2007 11:31 PM (zb3ob)
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I have been in Iraq since Nov-04 - I have worked all over the country. What Mr Coughlin said is exactly correct.
In my almost three years in country (and my longest time away was three weeks) I have never ever seen anyone with anything that resembles what Beauchamp describes.
Let me go one step further: We live in a man's world and it is very, very unlikely that a non military female was put into a position where there could be a likelihood of such a horrific attack which would leave her deformed. I have never seen a female truck driver, PSD or remote site security personnel.
Three years in Iraq and this story does not pass my smell test.
Posted by: h at August 08, 2007 01:18 AM (cnphj)
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"The right side of the blogosphere is covering the backs of the troops from the enemy within."
good god, you sound like a nazi! "The dirty Joos at home stabbed our troops in zee back while they were in zee field fighting for the Vaterland!" and all that...
Posted by: j at August 08, 2007 01:19 AM (Qj9lw)
Posted by: Tom C at August 08, 2007 01:51 AM (Wd/cV)
11
The NYT and WaPo are running stories on this today -- with the expected cognitive loopholes.
http://moralauthority.wordpress.com/2007/08/08/in-the-full-light-of-day-blindness-still-prevails/
Thanks for all of your work covering this.
Posted by: mesablue at August 08, 2007 04:23 AM (KCOdQ)
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I've read that BRAD THOR, a writer of fiction, has a story where a woman's face is deformed by an IED.
Perhaps, Beauchamp (pronounced Buttchump), was reading Thor's work while he was stationed in Kuwait? Or, he's read it in IRAK, but told TNR the "incident" occurred in Kuwait; since no one can corroborate it?
This is like a Chinese Puzzle I remember playing with when I was a kid. It's made of woven fiber. You stick a finger from one hand into the hole. And, then you stick a finger from your other hand in, on the opposite side. Every time you PULL to get your fingers out, however, the tube tightens up.
Posted by: Carol Herman at August 08, 2007 05:55 AM (KWhzz)
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Suddenly Shrinking Sources
The editors of The New Republic seem to be sticking to their story... just quite a bit less of it:
We've talked to military personnel directly involved in the events that Scott Thomas Beauchamp described, and they corroborated his account as detailed in our statement. When we called Army spokesman Major Steven F. Lamb and asked about an anonymously sourced allegation that Beauchamp had recanted his articles in a sworn statement, he told us, "I have no knowledge of that." He added, "If someone is speaking anonymously [to The Weekly Standard], they are on their own." When we pressed Lamb for details on the Army investigation, he told us, "We don't go into the details of how we conduct our investigations."
Just five days ago,
TNR editors claimed
far more support for Beauchamp's stories, stating that they spoke to all sorts of experts—none that they would cite by name or position, but they assured us they were experts all the same—in addition to the soldiers they interviewed, and of course, Beauchamp.
They seem to have dropped their experts, Beauchamp, and claims of fact-checking before publication, all of which were murky at best, and
deceitful at worst.
Now, they seem to hang their ever-less-descriptive claims on an unknown number of "military personnel."
Showing poor-form,
TNR editors seem to be laying the framework to claim that they could have proven their contentions, gosh-darn it, if that mean old military would just let them dig into the military investigation,
Beauchamp's personnel records be damned.
Is there a moral to this story? Perhaps.
If you're going to stick to your guns, make sure they don't fire
square-backed bullets.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
02:32 PM
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1
Bob-
Great work on this story. FYI... one of my commenters says that TNR has pulled "Shock Troops" from the web.
Just wanted you to know.
-Bruce
Posted by: Bruce (GayPatriot) at August 07, 2007 02:42 PM (TttZL)
2
Excellent work on this whole story Bob, from the time TNR first published their garbage right on up to today. I added a link to this post to my
2007.08.07 Long War // Dhimm Perfidy Roundup.
Posted by: Bill Faith at August 07, 2007 03:12 PM (n7SaI)
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I really don't understand what all the fuss is about here. So if Beauchamp did in fact fabricate these stories and they were printed in the pro-war TNR, this proves exactly what? Some kind of media conspiracy to undermine the war effort? Why would a publication that actively supports the war subvert its own editorial stance? Maybe sometimes a soldier with a dark and overactive imagination, and a loose grip on journalistic ethics is simply a a soldier with a dark and overactive imagination, and a loose grip on journalistic ethics.
Posted by: pinson at August 07, 2007 03:18 PM (lPHmi)
4
"When we called Army spokesman Major Steven F. Lamb and asked about an anonymously sourced allegation that Beauchamp had recanted his articles in a sworn statement, he told us, 'I have no knowledge of that.'" -- TNR, The Plank; 08.07.07 @ 2:32 PM
Did TNR also happen to ask about the named source who said:
"An investigation has been completed and the allegations made by PVT Beauchamp were found to be false. His platoon and company were interviewed and no one could substantiate the claims."
?????
According to The Weekly Standard, the Major Steven F. Lamb they spoke to said that. I think he might have provided those details on the Army investigation, if TNR had asked!
Posted by: Dusty at August 07, 2007 03:21 PM (1Lzs1)
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Anyone know where we can still get complete copies of the Shock Troop stories w/o subscriptions? Or is that a no-no?
It could be that TNR is choosing to use older quotes in an attempt to purposefully not have to respond to breaking developments that... er... break their story.
Posted by: NeoconNews.com at August 07, 2007 03:24 PM (/urC1)
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Pinson:
I guess you haven't read TNR for about 3 years. They're not pro-war. In fact, they've got a subscription crisis on their hands precisely because they *used* to be pro-war and have always been pro-Democrat, but the Democratic party has cast aside its hawks (Zell Miller, Joe Lieberman).
So TNR's base was always unstable, given that the Iraq war was from the beginning associated with the Bush administration, and basically disintegrated.
Consider that Jon Chait was the leading hawk at TNR, and also the editor who confessed to "loathing" GWB.
Hence your question is based on a false premise.
Posted by: DJ at August 07, 2007 03:24 PM (cRz3c)
7
[Bruce (GayPatriot) at August 7, 2007 02:42 PM]
It appears it is unaccessible via their site search engine, but it is still there, if, for instance, you go to The Plank announcement and click on the link. (I wasn't able to find it by search as late as an hour ago, but could access it via the link at The Plank.)
They have again released it from behind their subscriber wall, too.
Posted by: Dusty at August 07, 2007 03:26 PM (1Lzs1)
8
pinson, The New Republic was "pro-war" under it's previous editor, Peter Beiart. Stating that it has been "pro-war" under Foer's leadership is simply dishonest.
The problem here isn't just that Beauchamp has a problem with journalistic ethics (Was was not, and now probably never will be a journalist); evidence abounds that the current editors at TNR did not fact check the articles prior to publication, and that TNR editors did not reveal at least two claims that refuted their storyline that are well known.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at August 07, 2007 03:28 PM (0BhZ5)
9
[NeoconNews.com at August 7, 2007 03:24 PM]
It's here:
http://www.tnr.com/doc.mhtml?i=20070723&s=diarist072307
Posted by: Dusty at August 07, 2007 03:55 PM (1Lzs1)
10
Pinson,
I don't care if TNR is pro-war, anti-war, or maintains absolute neutrality. I care about whether or not I can be reasonably certain that the information they publish is accurate, and that they will promptly correct any small errors that slip past the editors. If they didn't bother to do basic fact checking on this story, should I expect them to do basic fact checking on a story about education reform, healthcare reform, immigration, campaign finance reform, or anything else? Probably not.
Posted by: JeanE at August 07, 2007 04:21 PM (3bSWI)
11
If I am reading this right, TNR is saying that their critics have 'no corroborating' evidence to back up their claims.
That was the problem that everyone else in their sane mind had when they first ran their 'hitler diaries'.
Posted by: paul at August 07, 2007 04:25 PM (YQWyY)
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So now the characteristic response from the left is that the right has made too much of the Beauchamp scandal.
(1) I doubt that nearly as much fuss would have been made had TNR and the left not gone into total stonewall/counterattack mode, acceding ground only inch by inch and only when forced.
(2) I'm against journalists making vicious material up and well-known publishers publishing it without accountability, no matter what side they are on.
These points should be obvious and commonsensical but TNR and the left just seem blind.
Posted by: huxley at August 07, 2007 04:39 PM (8q2Fl)
13
What none of you seem to understand is that the left feels that since they "mean well", they are above the normal moral guidelines the rest of us have to follow, and for which they crucify us if we transgress.
Remember, it's only hypocrisy if you actually feel bound by the rules. If you instead feel you deserve your own special set of rules, that's not hypocrisy. That is pure delusion.
Posted by: sherlock at August 07, 2007 05:06 PM (G9/8V)
14
Man, those 'military personnel' get around, don't they?
Posted by: NeoconNews.com at August 07, 2007 05:06 PM (/urC1)
15
TNR seems to be saying (or maybe just implying) that their anonymous sources are better than The Weekly Standard's anonymous sources. I used to say things like this too, when I was about 5 or 6. Given that both sets of sources are anonymous, how are mere citizens supposed to figure this out? I am getting tired of anonymous sources. I would like a new kind of journalism for a change. Like, you know, having someone knowledgeable and experienced in Iraq who can track these things down by going directly to the non-anonymous source and then telling us what he learns. But what do I know? I don't understand the journalism business; I work for a living.
Posted by: Mike at August 07, 2007 07:23 PM (8nfdO)
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Well, if you're gonna fire your guns, first, don't form a circle.
Guns are only effective if you know how to take aim. And, then you also know something about "recoil."
What TNR didn't know, however, before this began, is that the Net could overpower them. And, send this story OUT over the airwaves, in ways they just don't have available "in house."
while, at the same time, SHATTERED GLASS has opened.
It's as if, for TNR, this is their summer of the "two-fer."
They did it because they thought they'd bring inflence down on the Pulitzer Prize Committee.
Posted by: Carol Herman at August 07, 2007 09:50 PM (KWhzz)
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Part of the problem is that Pvt Beauchamp has received "administrative punishment" (presumably under UCMJ article 15). Adminstrative punishment is not a court martial which, like a civilian trial, is public. Had the Army proceeded with a court martial, then specific charges, each with specifications, would be part of the public record. At least, everyone would know exactly what parts of Beauchamp's stories are refuted. As it is, the adminstrative action will be part of Beauchamp's personnel record, and will be accessible only through a SF-180 request in the future (which means we'll never know what Beauchamp recanted on). TNR will continue to stand by their version of events, because it will be impossible to conclusively refute it, short of Pvt Beauchamp taking it upon himself to make a full public disclosure.
Posted by: Paulie Goombah at August 08, 2007 05:59 AM (RwZxT)
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Doc? Doc?
Crickets....
Posted by: y7 at August 08, 2007 06:27 AM (Cixed)
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It Didn't Have To Be This Way
Michael Goldfarb at The Weekly Standard reports that according to an anonymous source close to the investigation, PV-2 Scott Thomas Beauchamp has recanted:
THE WEEKLY STANDARD has learned from a military source close to the investigation that Pvt. Scott Thomas Beauchamp--author of the much-disputed "Shock Troops" article in the New Republic's July 23 issue as well as two previous "Baghdad Diarist" columns--signed a sworn statement admitting that all three articles he published in the New Republic were exaggerations and falsehoods--fabrications containing only "a smidgen of truth," in the words of our source.
Separately, we received this statement from Major Steven F. Lamb, the deputy Public Affairs Officer for Multi National Division-Baghdad:
An investigation has been completed and the allegations made by PVT Beauchamp were found to be false. His platoon and company were interviewed and no one could substantiate the claims.
According to the military source, Beauchamp's recantation was volunteered on the first day of the military's investigation. So as Beauchamp was in Iraq signing an affidavit denying the truth of his stories, the New Republic was publishing a statement from him on its website on July 26, in which Beauchamp said, "I'm willing to stand by the entirety of my articles for the New Republic using my real name."
The military sources I contacted will neither confirm nor deny Goldfarb's report, citing Beauchamp's right to privacy and on-going administrative actions.
I think that in light of everything else we know about this unfolding scandal, however, that the statement is quite plausibly correct.
Sadly, if the editors of
The New Republic had actually fact-checked Beauchamp's claims prior to "Shock Troops," obvious fact errors in his second post, "Dead of Night," should have alerted them to the fact that Beauchamp was not a reliable or accurate source of information.
It didn't have to be this way
In "Dead of Night," Beauchamp wrote a paragraph that contained two factual inaccuracies that should have been quite easy to discern with even a minimal attempt at fact checking, fact checking that it is obvious that
The New Republic did not engage in.
Beauchamp wrote:
Someone reached down and picked a shell casing up off the ground. It was 9mm with a square back. Everything suddenly became clear. The only shell casings that look like that belong to Glocks. And the only people who use Glocks are the Iraqi police.
Anyone with even minimal familiarity with firearms--and by "minimal," I mean anyone who has paid the least bit of attention to firearms in news stories, television programs, or movies--
should know that there is no such thing as a "9mm with a square back."
All modern cartridges in common use are tubular cases with a round base, or in Beauchamp's parlance, "back."
Here is an excellent photo of the base of a spent 9mm cartridge casing as captured by
PAXcam:
Note that this is a fired case manufactured by CCI, and in the middle is the primer. In the center of the primer, lending to a "bull’s-eye" visual effect, is an indentation made by a standard firing pin. It is round in shape, due to the fact that most pistols in common use have rounded firing pins.
Taken in the context of the paragraph, it could be reasonably be concluded that what Beauchamp probably
meant to say was that the indentation made on the primer was square or rectangular in shape, leading him to believe that the indentation was made by the squared striker used by Glock pistols. As a matter of fact, this is what I stated when I first addressed this "red flag" article on
July 20.
Oddly enough, though, he returns to state "The only shell casings that look like that belong to Glocks." He is once again talking about
the case itself, and not the mark on the primer.
In retrospect, as such shell casings do not exist as a clear matter of fact (and this is beyond dispute), I don't think it unreasonable to conclude that Scott Thomas Beauchamp never saw such a shell casing, and that this entire paragraph was fabricated based upon stories he probably heard from other soldiers, and then was inaccurately retold in this tale.
I could reasonably forgive
The New Republic for missing this factual untruth, as it may simply be that they had no one on staff to vet this article that has even a passing familiarity with firearms.
The second factual error, however, was exceedingly easy to fact check, and would have exposed Beauchamp as being a fact-challenged writer well in advance of the publication of "Shock Troops."
This is the statement that should have sent the red flag:
And the only people who use Glocks are the Iraqi police.
The obvious implication of this statement is that Scott Thomas Beauchamp was specifically implicating the Iraqi police in a shooting.
Such a implication
demands at least a cursory attempt at fact-checking the claim that only the Iraqi police carry Glock pistols, and the easiest way to do that is to simply Google the words "Glock" and "Iraq."
If
TNR's editors had taken even that
minimal fact-checking step, they would have discovered articles from the
New York Times,
military press releases,
video-sharing web sites and
other media outlets that would have shown that Glocks are
very common in Iraq. Glocks are quite likely the most ubiquitous handgun in Iraq, carried officially or unofficially by those on all sides, and those on no side at all.
The New Republic utterly failed to fact-check an inflammatory charge made by Beauchamp that implicated the Iraqi police as the only group that could have fired that cartridge.
In one paragraph in his second article, Beauchamp
should have been exposed as a questionable writer, whose articles needed to be thoroughly vetted before publication. Franklin Foer's editorial staff utterly failed to fact-check "Dead of Night." Had they caught these errors, it is possible that "Shock Troops" would have faced more scrutiny that it obviously did, and the article that now has caused such a firestorm, and may yet cost Foer and other
TNR editors their jobs, may have never gone to publication.
Even after "Shock Troops" was published, it wasn't too late
After "Shock Troops" went to press and Michael Goldfarb called the account into question in "
Fact or Fiction?, various bloggers and military officers starting to pick the story apart.
Franklin Foer should have admitted
at that time that they were relying on the word of a soldier well-known to them, and that they did not see a need to fact-check the stories prior to publication as a result.
Instead, Foer announced that
TNR would
conduct an investigation, and that conversations with soldiers have done nothing to undermine--and much to corroborate--the author's descriptions." Foer was conveniently and self-servingly ignoring structural problems with the story, apparently convinced that fervent testimony has more use than facts.
Just four days later,
TNR made the rather
outlandish claim that "the article was rigorously edited and fact-checked before it was published," which is a blatant untruth.
As a matter of fact, it was obvious that fact-checking had not been completed prior to
TNR's August 2 publication of the results of their investigation, as senior editor Jason Zingerle
admitted yesterday at
The Corner, when he stated that he did not receive word back from Kuwait-based PAO Major Renee D. Russo prior to publication of their self-styled vindication, and perhaps more damning, did not deem fit to print her statement that Beauchamp's story was a "likely urban legend or myth" once he had it.
Where do we go from here?
PV-2 Scott Thomas Beauchamp is probably finished as a writer, and possibly finished as a soldier. At this point, if he has the common sense to keep his mouth shut, his role in this sad drama, at least in the public eye, should be over.
We in the blogosphere will move on at some point in the near future; as a matter of fact, so many of those who have defended Beauchamp and
TNR on ideological grounds alone already have.
Others--myself included--will likely follow the incident for a while longer.
The New Republic's ordeal, however, is only just beginning.
TNR's owners, Canwest MediaWorks International and the
TNR's editor-in-chief Martin Peretz have some tough decisions to make in the days ahead.
It seems obvious that
TNR did
not fact-check Beauchamp's stories before they were originally published, which is not by itself an unpardonable sin. What is far harder to justify is the decision of the editors to try to insist that they fact-checked Beauchamp's articles when they clearly did not. That, in my opinion, amounts to a lie.
Franklin Foer and other editors at
The New Republic apparently tried to fool their readers with a combination of what they said and what they decided not to say, and abusing your readership in such a manner is one way to assure that an already shrinking readership will continue to collapse.
If
The New Republic is to survive this latest scandal, it appears that that excising a significant portion of their editorial staff is the only real option.
Sadly, it the editors had only been forthright and admitted their mistakes early on, their futures at
The New Republic--and perhaps even the future of the magazine itself--would not now be in doubt.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
11:07 AM
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Franklin Foer did his best to follow in the footsteps of Dan Rather at CBS, except that his sights were set a bit lower than CBS's blatant attempt to reverse the re-election of George Bush by publishing unverified lies about National Guard service.
In fact, it's breathtaking that Foer was so dumb as to follow that example, given that Rather lost his cushy job through his overreaching. Yes, CBS and the rest of the MSM did their best to give Rather a soft landing, and maybe Foer expects similar support from high places. But, he's busted big-time. It's all too obvious he never intended to check facts, when his 'source' was such an ideal fit with the antimilitary prejudices of the illuminati. And, it's even more breathtaking that he was so dumb as to think that he'd get away with his journalistic malpractice when he insisted oh so loudly that he'd confirmed and checked Scott Thomas's stories over and over again.
If that's the example of an 'intellectual' in action, give me GI Joe comics any time.
Posted by: Insufficiently Sensitive at August 07, 2007 11:30 AM (0ZR4z)
2
I've never fired a Glock. However, I have worked with all manner of weapons chambered for the 9mm Parabellum/Luger cartridge and done my own reloading, never seen a fireing pin that didn't leave a round dimple in the primer.
Posted by: Tom TB at August 07, 2007 11:43 AM (AD5Bl)
3
I've been over here in the Middle East as a contractor for 3 and a half years... 22 months of it in Baghdad.... I had a Glock 27 that was my 'daily carry'... does that mean that I'm possibly guilty of having shot that particular person that Beu-CHUMP wrote about? The Glock I had I picked up thru my 'fixer' for $400 US Dollars... The running price is more about $800 and up nowadays, but then again, it was only $200 for a full stocked AK or $300 for AKS folder... Just goes to show what a load of crap the whole set of articles was/are/were... I for one got $50 that sez chumpstain will be sent home MIGHTY fast if only to prevent a fratricide by his fellow outraged soldiers.
Posted by: Big Country at August 07, 2007 11:58 AM (q7b5Y)
4
Here a nice picture of a .357 round fired from a Glock 33 next to a .40 Baretta 96.
Posted by: BohicaTwentyTwo at August 07, 2007 12:10 PM (oC8nQ)
5
File Beauchamp under "MSM lies" along with the APs "Jamil Hussein/blown up mosques/burned Sunnis fiasco" and their ongoing "our insurgent stringers report at least X civilians killed in a bomb attack fiasco(s)".
Posted by: MikeE at August 07, 2007 12:10 PM (gkobM)
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Of course, when it’s all said and done, he’ll be lifted up by the Left as a hero who “spoke truth to power” — how long until he’s a regular contributor at the Huffing-and-puffing Post?
Posted by: Robbie at August 07, 2007 12:28 PM (y6NVR)
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Thanks, BohicaTwentyTwo; I learn something every day!
Posted by: Tom TB at August 07, 2007 01:44 PM (AD5Bl)
8
Interestingly, you refer to Beauchamp as a PV2, but Major Lamb refers to him as "PVT Beauchamp."
This implies, to me, that perhaps he's already received an Article 15 [perhaps for failure to follow orders, WRT his OPSEC violation] and been reduced in grade. Odd how a college grad isn't at least an E-4, or even an E-4(p).
Posted by: Russ at August 07, 2007 01:45 PM (9X0tX)
9
TNR will survive regardless of what they do. They don't have to fire Franklin Foer. The base of their readership is made up of the kooks who will inevitably think Beauchamp recanted under duress or buy into the "fake but accurate" line.
So, no, TNR doesn't have to fire anybody. The people they are accountable to, their truther type subscribers, won't demand it.
Posted by: T.Ferg at August 07, 2007 02:25 PM (2YVh7)
Posted by: patriot at August 07, 2007 02:31 PM (kEYbh)
11
"Whoops" is right. They come back with less than before, and we're supposed to take that seriously?
They're down to stating that a group of soldiers that have apparently refuted what TNR says they said as their support. That's not very good for them.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at August 07, 2007 02:39 PM (0BhZ5)
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Russ, I haven't been looking lately, but early on there was nothing that even implied that Beauchamp had completed a college degree. He did apparently attend the University of Missouri (which, if I remember right, has/had a well-regarded J-school [assuming you think that's a big deal]), but there was no evidence that he ever graduated. I am picturing him as one of those drop-outs with delusions of adequacy.
Posted by: JorgXMcKie at August 07, 2007 04:25 PM (OIFDa)
13
JorgXMcKie, you're correct; I wrote in error.
I've been led to believe that he had enough college, though, to warrant promotion to E-4 in fairly short order. I had more than 2 years of college when I enlisted (long long ago) and was thus promoted to E-4 one year after I enlisted (even before I had made it out of language school, before I'd even been to AIT); I assumed that Beauchamp was on the same sort of program.
I'll stand by the initial point I made, though, about the difference between PV2 and PVT, assuming MAJ Lamb wrote correctly. However, I should note that it is usual for both grades to be referred to simply as "Private" without distinguishing between the two.
Posted by: Russ at August 07, 2007 05:02 PM (9X0tX)
14
In corroboration about the Glock firing pin shape: See http://www.topglock.com/images/SD14.JPG (apologies for the bare URL).
You can see that the firing pin "business end" is not a round-ended full cone, which is the shape of a typical firing pin, and which would leave a circular dent. It's more like a round-tipped cone with large chunks missing from each side. So it will make a roughly rectangular dent in a primer.
[Sidebar for those who are curious: The tips of properly-formed firing pins are always rounded because you don't want something sharp penetrating the primer.]
It's barely possible that the "square back" malarkey is a result of the active listening / groupthink of the reporter(s) or their editor(s). But either way, it's one of those damning dubious details.
Glocks have a lot of malarkey associated with them.
Posted by: Nortius Maximus at August 07, 2007 05:25 PM (aZQnb)
15
I'm not saying this is how it went down but I am imagining a situation where Beauchamp is some 'tag along, wanna-be chump and the guys who are really in the field are telling stories (tall tales) about some of their exploits.
They see that he is hanging on their words so they embellish or just make things up and then laugh at his gullibility behind his back. They are telling him 'fish stories' and he is buying it hook, line and sinker.
Or maybe I the only one who had dumb-a$$ associates who would believe everything they were told.
Posted by: Anon at August 07, 2007 06:23 PM (CJTLg)
16
Anon, you're not the only one.
I, personally, never served (disability prevents it), but a former co-worker and Air Force vet tells the story of sending new recruits to the supply depot for 10 gallons of propwash and 50 yards of flightline.
The guys in supply would play along, asking the recruit if he wanted red or blue flightline.
That sort of stuff appears rampant in the Armed Forces.
Either that or my co-worker thought I was gullible enough to fall for it.
Posted by: C-C-G at August 07, 2007 08:38 PM (8QZAZ)
17
FWIW, I don't believe a "9mm with a square back" rises to the level of "factual inaccuracy."
There are, after all, no square bullets anywhere (except perhaps in the work-shop of some failed inventor). It's reasonable then to assume that he meant "a 9mm casing with a square detent on the back."
As to the second gaffe, though, regarding Glocks and the Iraqi police, well, I reckon that one's a super-sized Factual Inaccuracy.
Posted by: Frogwhistle at August 07, 2007 10:41 PM (vRwEO)
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August 06, 2007
Further Confirmation: No Burned Woman Here
Adding to the debunking of The New Republic's new claim that "burned contractor" story took place in Kuwait before PV-2 Scott Thomas Beauchamp deployed into a combat zone, U.S. Army Public Affairs Chief PAO for US ARCENT Kuwait LTC Andy Sams replies to an emailed inquiry about the claim:
Mr. Owens,
We have absolutely no record of this. MAJ Russo contacted Buerhing and our Area Support Group and they do not have anything either.
Sincerely,
LTC Andy Sams
This follows an
earlier refutation from Kuwait-based U.S. Army PAO Renee D. Russo at Camp Arifjan, and the discovery of the fact that Jason Zengerle, Senior Editor of
The New Republic knew in advance (
update: this claim was unsupported. See correction
here) of the publication of
TNR's own investigation, which conveniently refused to address the fact that the U.S. Army has been unable to find any record of a burned female contractor at bases in Iraq or Kuwait, and considers the story "a urban legend or myth."
U.S. Army Col. Steven Bolyan, Public Affairs Officer for U.S. Army Commanding General in Iraq David Petraeus, responded to an inquiry of mine on August 3, and
stated that:
An investigation of the allegations were conducted by the command and found to be false. In fact, members of Thomas' platoon and
company were all interviewed and no one could substantiate his claims.
Further email exchanges with U.S. Army PAO Major Steven Lamb with Multi National Division-Baghdad states that any administrative punishment handed down to PV-2 Beauchamp is a personnel matter, and therefore, will not be discussed publicly. Access to the findings of the Army investigation of Beauchamp's claims, where all soldiers in his platoon and company were interviewed and could not substantiate his claims, has not yet been determined.
As Col. Boylan has released the
findings conclusions of the Army investigation of this matter to this blogger and the information is in the public domain, the Army is not planning a press release discussing the findings at this time. Instead, Major Lamb states that the PAO system is only responding to specific inquiries, and little more is expected to be released unless PV-2 Beauchamp decides to discuss the matter further, which he is free to do.
Commenters on this and other blogs have speculated that since PV-2 Beauchamp is receiving only administrative and not criminal punishment under the Uniform Code of Military Justice (UCMJ) for the allegations he made in
The New Republic, that he has likely refuted his allegations when interviewed during the course of the Army investigation. I'd caution that this is idle speculation, and we have no evidence to support this theory.
The New Republic, which
published a defense of the stories they published from Beauchamp that excluded contradictory statements from Major Russo and which failed to provide any documentation to support their claims that the Beauchamp stories were fact-checked before publication, and which failed to identify the experts that they say confirmed the plausibility of the claims by either name, organization, or qualifications, has taken a pre-scheduled vacation and is not apparently available for comment, even though the credibility of the editorial staff and the magazine's veracity are now in question.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
08:00 AM
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1
The New Republic staff would love to respond. After all, their jobs and the future of the magazine are at stake. But darn it all, they have this vacation thing they've already committed themselves to. Otherwise they'd be issuing names, dates, and clarifications like gangbusters.
Posted by: lyle at August 06, 2007 08:24 AM (UIhw7)
2
With TNR on vacation, there are no new follow-ups on the Beauchamp affair. For the record, I left the following as Comment 375 (!) at the thread at "The Plank" that is attached to the 8/2/07 A Statement on Scott Thomas Beauchamp.
Blogger Confederate Yankee has contacted Public Affairs Officers and reprinted their responses to his inquiries about the "corroborated woman" in the chow hall.
No complaints of chow-hall taunting were filed.
To this point, nobody has come forward with recollections that a woman with a half-burned face was at Camp Behring in Kuwait during the time that Beauchamp was there.
TNR Editor Jason Zengerle corresponded with one of the PAOs prior to 8/2/07, and was thus aware of these developments, though this absence of evidence went unmentioned in its Statement.
Pre-publication fact checking didn't detect that Beauchamp had transposed the chow hall incident from pre-deployment Kuwait to FOB Falcon.
Post-publication fact checking didn't disclose that the PAO contacted by TNR could not verify the existence of a burned woman at Camp Behring.
At this point, the chow-hall taunting incident has the status of an urban legend.
Urban legends shouldn't appear in the pages of TNR as rigorously-checked facts. They shouldn't be backed up by the magazine's staff during a post-publication controversy.
It is, of course, possible that new witnesses will step forward and point to a factual basis for Beauchamp's story. That would not excuse TNR's conduct to this point.
Surely subscribers of the right wing, the center, and the left wing have a shared interest in urging The New Republic to transparently describe its vetting procedures, and then to follow them? Surely the spectacle of "doubling down" on Urban Legends is not deserving of readers' support?
Confederate Yankee's Aug. 5 post is here:
http://tinyurl.com/38dghd
The Aug. 6 post is here:
http://tinyurl.com/2tfjlg
Posted by: AMac at August 06, 2007 09:31 AM (9jxMs)
3
Hmmmm.
@ CY
Not to add to your workload but would it be possible to find out the mailing address for the soldiers in Alpha Company of the 1/18?
Why? Because I really feel for these people. I expect most of them got caught completely by surprise and had no idea about any of this nonsense. They're in a combat zone trying to do a difficult and dangerous job and on top of all that they've got this silly nonsense to deal with. Something I'm certain they really don't need at this point.
So I'd like to send'em a care package and a note saying how sorry I am that they've been pushed into this.
Posted by: memomachine at August 06, 2007 09:35 AM (3pvQO)
4
Occam's Razor
He just made it all up.
Posted by: Bill Smith at August 06, 2007 09:42 AM (DvkLe)
5
LIAR!!!
He lied about the disfigured woman to DISCREDIT his unit
there IS NO disfigured woman!!!
Posted by: Karl at August 06, 2007 10:00 AM (XJwNv)
6
You know what? I really don't think that Beauchamp is credible. And his own admission that something that he said happened in Iraq (and, impliedly, as a result of fighting in Iraq) happened in Kuwait is enough to sink the whole thing. However, I think that people need to be careful about what they consider "proof" that he lied. What does it mean to say that there's "no record of this"? That no one reported such an incident? That there's no record of a burned woman? Why would there be? I think we should find out precisely what the army did to check and what it was checking. Otherwise, it becomes a lot easier for people to ignore the already-existing and very powerful reasons not to believe Beauchamp, and focus on claims that the army didn't properly investigate.
Posted by: zara at August 06, 2007 10:01 AM (ccaCa)
7
I'm sorry, I wasn't paying attention. When did Beauchamp become a PV2 (E-2)? I was under the impression he was a PFC (E-3). Was he previously a PFC and recently reduced in rank? He's been in since 2003 or 2004 right? With all of his college credits, he should have started out at at least a PFC. IIRC, if you have a BA/BS and you enlist, you can start out as a SPC (E-4). We all knew he was having some problems, but to be in the Army for that long and still be a PV2 most likely means he is familiar with Article 15s.
Posted by: BohicaTwentyTwo at August 06, 2007 10:05 AM (oC8nQ)
8
Hmmm.
@ BohicaTwentyTwo
Evidently if you look at his writing, including his MySpace page and blog, he's posted that he was a PFC (PV3) in Germany but in Kuwait/Iraq he was a Private (PV2).
And that was *before* this recent incident which will probably result in his becoming a Private (PV1). So yes I'm pretty sure he's very familiar with Article-15s.
But then again I've had a couple myself when I was in so I can't point any fingers on that score.
Posted by: memomachine at August 06, 2007 10:08 AM (3pvQO)
9
I routinely get confused about the country I'm in. Why just last week I ordered a magazine subscription and gave a Zimbabwe address by mistake. It can happen to anyone.
Posted by: Purple Avenger at August 06, 2007 10:46 AM (0d45V)
10
Hmmmm. Has anyone ever seen Franklin Foer and Stephen Glass in the same place at the same time...?
A couple other things worth noting:
1. Beauchump posted atrocity stories to his blog (including one where an NCO orders the murder of an Iraqi civilian) before ever leaving Germany. Those stories have the same little details meant to lend verisimilitude, but they're clearly nothing but "wannabee Hemingway" at work.
2. Beauchump's wife/fiancee/squeeze/whatever Ellie Reeve at TNR seems to have been the conduit that brought him to Fraudulent Franklin's attention. When she was hired by TNR, she had written at least two stories in which Beauchump figured. Is it normal to write about your own, er, bunkmates in the third person? It wasn't when I was a reporter, but given the examples of Elspeth Reeve and Mirthala Salinas, maybe that's changed in "eee-light journ'ism p'toons."
We're all familiar with the old definition of a war story (a fairy tale with an alternate beginning to "once upon a time..."). If you've served, then you know how rumours get bigger and bigger (many a commander has been entertained to hear what the troops are saying about their "Old Man"). I suspect that Beauchump's own life wasn't interesting enough, so he sauced up all the rumours going around and fed the dish to the gullible editors at TNR, all of whom would be horrified out of their panties at the thought of actually, you know, serving in a military service or anything.
As a private in a mech infantry unit, Beauchump's everyday routine would be: doing preventive maintenance in the motor pool on grimy Brad tracks, wheel bearings and whatnot; doing repetitive training (that a bright kid might think beneath him); and doing support details (which everybody hates). As a narcissistic kid with a sense of entitlement the size of a building, it's no surprise that he has been a discipline problem. Like the kid trying to pull a stunt on mom and dad, Beauchump probably faces his sergeants with the idea they've never seen a Wile E. Coyote Super Genius like him before -- and gets about the same results as Wile E. did.
Oh, No.
Posted by: Kevin R.C. 'Hognose' O'Brien at August 06, 2007 11:17 AM (LkeNv)
11
We have seen Franklin Foer and Stephen Glass in the same place at the same time. But we've never seen Glass with Beauchamp.
I'm surprised the tall tales from his pre-deployment blog haven't gotten more play. It shows all the marks of a narcissistic/borderline personality - from witnessing serious crimes that never happened to making up a girlfriend (the picture of him with the attractive blond - she's actually a very conservative German blogger, they were at a blogger's get-together and never met otherwise).
Personally, I suspect that many of his stories may have had a bit of truth in them. Fabulists often start with something small and real, and embellish until it suits their purpose. There's some evidence that his unit did accidentally dig up an unmarked cemetery of children, it's likely that one those men held a child's skull (and if they're anything like the soldiers I know, said a silent prayer.) It's almost certain that somewhere in country an American vehicle killed a dog. But those stories wouldn't have been published and wouldn't have have advanced his or his bunkie's careers.
The only good news for Beauchamp is that he's still young. If he really decides he needs help, he can change. 10 or 15 years from now his personality will be set. He'll be a 2 bit, petty con man, in bankruptcy and alone, wondering where his fabulous life went.
Posted by: Richard Riley at August 06, 2007 12:12 PM (jTT87)
12
I'm still waiting to see if anything else comes out of The New Republic. If the military investigation is really completed, shouldn't there be a flurry of keyboards over at the left-leaning publication? I thought they had reliable confirmation beforehand? Surely they wouldn't be irresponsibly publishing accusations that seem to be designed to hurt the war effort...
Posted by: NeoconNews.com at August 06, 2007 01:02 PM (/urC1)
13
Found the woman: Contractor Irish McGalla, horribly disfigured by wounds inflicted during Bush's Abominable Expedition
Posted by: CK MacLeod at August 06, 2007 02:06 PM (dvksz)
14
According to TNR, Beauchamp says "We were really poking fun at her; it was just me and Scott, the day that I made that comment. We were pretty loud. She was sitting at the table behind me. We were at the end of the table. I believe that there were a few people a few feet to the right."
Who is Scott? What's his last name? According to Beauchamp story, Scott didn't do anything significantly wrong - he couldn't eat while looking at a disfigured woman, so he was going to leave quietly. It was Beauchamp that mocked her. (and since he was a PV2 and didn't know if she was military or civilian, he was likely mocking someone of superior rank).
Does "Scott" verify the story?
Posted by: Bombast at August 06, 2007 04:24 PM (iXWYc)
15
Zara,
You must never have been in the Armed Forces. There is a record of every human being in the Army. Where they are every day. It's called a morning report. Every morning every human being is accounted for. Of course, every veteran has a story of some manipulation by a friend to account for someone who was late getting back from a weekend pass.
Women are a rare enough commodity in a war zone. Do you think those young men don't know the face of every female at their little hall. Think of it as a large restaurant that can serve fifty people at one time. You eat three meals there every day, for 365 days. These men not only know every woman by sight, they may even know every woman personally. Someone actually works with these women. They do not interact much differently than civilians. Granted they are somewhat higher in intelligence, than their civilian counterparts. They also tend to be more polite, since there is a high expectation of courtesy. "Hi Tom. This is Mary she works over in the motor pool. She's only been here two weeks. etc. etc. etc."
These men can not only tell you the color and length of every young woman's hair. He probably has a mental picture of her rank, height, weight and feminine charms or lack there of. They are also very aware of every combat injury. Simple courtesy, as in civilian life, would demand little or no recognition of injuries. They would not dare be rude to any injured party, it would bring the wrath of the entire unit upon them. They would in effect be a pariah for the rest of their stay.
It is very easy for a unit to check on who was using the chow hall. Every meal has to be accounted for. A company commander could tell the company clerk to go through the files of last May, and give him a list of every female soldier in the unit, who was serving at that time. Then, pull up the names of all civilian personnel authorized to eat "my men's food." Find all female names on that list. Then go to their job site and see if any of the women are still here, look at their faces and see if they have any disfigurement of the face. Then go over to the women's barracks and ask the NCO in Charge if she remembers any of the unknowns names. Then ask all of our platoon leaders, if they recognize any unknown names, and was that party injured. If you still have unaccounted names, ask the squad leaders if they recognize the names. Of course since the MOS (military occupational specialty) is listed it would give a humongous hint, of where to start looking. For a Chaplain's Assistant you would check with the Chaplain's office, etc. Next, give me a summary of this, by the end of this working day.
If there were a name that no one remembered, all they would have to do is check her serial number to see where she is stationed now. A call to her company commander could answer the disfigurement question easily. If you wanted to see if plastic surgery was done because everyone looks unscathed, you could, with permission of higher ups look at every woman's medical records to see if she was ever wounded and had plastic surgery of the face. There will also be a record of whether any of these women received a purple heart.
I imagine that there are even fewer women contractors in the arena. There is not a chance that the contractors, who used the mess hall wouldn't remember a woman who had been disfigured in the face. Think about it, would you remember?
I had to track down my military records, from Vietnam. I managed to find a guy I served with who had a copy of a morning report with my name on it. It had the name of every soldier at the Forward Command Post. It had our names serial number, MOS, and where we were, such as R&R, sick call, temporary assignment, etc. Picture a bald mountain top with artillery, and some guy with a cigarette hanging out of his mouth, in a tiny tent, with the monsoon rains beating down on it, pecking away at a typewriter recording this information. You're nuts if you think the Army can't figure this one out.
Believe me, this this guy has dishonored every member of these units. Do you think these officers want to have this in their records. He is a liar and will be exposed, or he is both a lout in relationship to his female comrade, and a participant in a potential war crime...desecration of graves.
Marty
Posted by: marvin Sinclair at August 06, 2007 04:32 PM (572VM)
16
Marty hit the nail on the head. Women, ugly or not, warrant an insane amount of attention in the desert. When I was in Afghanistan there was a woman working for the FBI on Bagram. Everyone just called her 'gun girl' because she walked around with a sidearm. She was overweight and not good looking at all, but that didn't matter -- anything besides a soldier they saw every day was something worth talking about and her legend grew for no particular reason at all. If there were a woman (or a dude for that matter) walking around with a melted face, I think everyone would have heard about it. I suspect there was (like the PAO officer said) an urban legend about it, which he latched on to. Kind've like the urban legend in the USMC about the dude who's watching a porn and it turns out to be his wife.
Mr Hognose also hit it on the head. When I first heard about this guy I knew the type -- everyone who has served does -- some guy who is too enlightened to do what everyone else is doing and loves to cite rules and regulations when convenient to him while thumbing his nose at any he feels are beneath him. He's a classic shitbird who would probably like nothing more than to be admin sep'd for a pattern of stupid (read "enlightened" and "free thinking" by the left, who will immediately employ him) behavior.
Posted by: paully at August 06, 2007 05:32 PM (jiuMy)
17
Zara,
Any woman who was that badly burned would probably need constant medical attention even after her recovery. The hospital there would need to provide her meds and check ups. There should be no way NOT to find such a person. In this case, I can say Beauchamp probaly heard a story of a guy who heard it from a dude who actually saw somebody do that, no kiddin man, and he made it his own. I expect most of his stories are like that.
Posted by: David J. at August 06, 2007 05:40 PM (XQMBl)
18
This follows an earlier refutation from Kuwait-based U.S. Army PAO Renee D. Russo at Camp Arifjan, and the discovery of the fact that Jason Zengerle, Senior Editor of The New Republic knew in advance of the publication of TNR's own investigation, which conveniently refused to address the fact that the U.S. Army has been unable to find any record of a burned female contractor at bases in Iraq or Kuwait, and considers the story "a urban legend or myth."
This isn't very clear. What was discovered about Jason Zengerle?
Posted by: Serenity Now at August 06, 2007 06:20 PM (UQtmm)
19
It seems likely that the most effective way to address Beauchamp's transgressions was through Art. 15 NJP. In spite of the fact that his tales received distribution in a national publication, it wouldn't be in the Army's interests or in PVT Beauchamp's for this to continue with an Art. 32 and a Summary or Special CM.
Posted by: ts at August 06, 2007 06:26 PM (xBr+X)
20
Major Lamb states that the PAO system is only responding to specific inquiries, and little more is expected to be released unless PV-2 Beauchamp decides to discuss the matter further, which he is free to do.
Sounds pretty much like he confessed to making crap up.
Posted by: Topsecretk9 at August 06, 2007 07:18 PM (0rJrY)
21
Zingerle is telling Podhoretz at The Corner that he didn't receive Russo's email until after they had published the editorial and that the email was different from what Russo told CY.
Posted by: Laddy at August 06, 2007 07:23 PM (SpX+n)
22
Also Confederate Yankee?
unless PV-2 Beauchamp decides to discuss the matter further, which he is free to do.
Implies that he is and has been able to discuss the matter. Is there any way to find out how long he was stripped of communication (or if he really ever was?)?
It is my understanding they do talk to every possible witness first before the subject, so if he was asked to refrain communication 2 or 3 days(?) until they talked with him and made a final judgment and determined no crimes were committed (which pretty much means he lied and/or exaggerated and confessed to such) - sounds like he is in no real rush to "discuss" the matter and for quite a while...
Posted by: Topsecretk9 at August 06, 2007 07:30 PM (0rJrY)
23
that the email was different from what Russo told CY.
ever so slightly semantically different.
Posted by: Topsecretk9 at August 06, 2007 07:32 PM (0rJrY)
24
Hasn't TNR's defense been nothing but semantics thus far? Thet haven't produced one shred of objective evidence in support that I can see, which is why they have absolutely no credibility AFAIC.
Posted by: Laddy at August 06, 2007 07:35 PM (SpX+n)
Posted by: Topsecretk9 at August 06, 2007 07:43 PM (0rJrY)
26
You have to check this out, Johathan Chait of TNR and Ross Douthat of that Atlantic Monthly discussing the Beauchamp affair.
bloggingheads.tv
Posted by: Cameron at August 06, 2007 07:53 PM (c8RAF)
27
Its a shame, his daddy probably never told him lying was wrong.
So now, he lies to get attention.
Simple, yet sad
Posted by: TMF at August 06, 2007 08:44 PM (+Ac3z)
28
BRAD THOR, in his fiction, wrote about a woman whose face was badly burned by an IED.
Incident can't be moved to Kuwait. It's something BeauCHUMP picked up when he read BRAD THOR's book.
Jolly, as this discovery sounds, it's a no-no even in journalism skools. To pick the works of others, without attribution.
From start to finish, the Internet has uncovered this POS BeauCHUMP. I remember reading, early on, at JOM (Just One Minute), someone saying they had reviewed military pay records, and "Scott Thomas" was not PFC. Wasn't FIRST CLASS. But had been DEMOTED. The infraction causing the pay grade demotion occurred before this article was even sent to TNR.
As to Elsbeth, who is both the head-fact-checker at TNR, and the wife of BeauCHAMP, if I had to guess? Even though TNR is closed for a 3-week hiatus vacation; she'll be fired. When she gets back. Just like Mary Mapes. The "suits" will blame her. And, spit venom at her.
While never actually coming out, in print, to apologize for the fake and innacurate reporting.
Posted by: Carol Herman at August 06, 2007 09:10 PM (KWhzz)
29
UPDATE,
Beauchamp admits story is BS
http://www.weeklystandard.com/weblogs/TWSFP/2007/08/beauchamp_recants.asp
Posted by: Mark at August 06, 2007 09:40 PM (FXWES)
30
Another summer in DC, another fairbanksing at TNR. It is getting as sure as the humidity on the Mall.
Could be wrong, but I am guessing Miss Fairbanks did some of the editing of these fables.
Posted by: Guy Montag at August 06, 2007 10:42 PM (otDb3)
31
"I remember reading, early on, at JOM (Just One Minute), someone saying they had reviewed military pay records, and "Scott Thomas" was not PFC. Wasn't FIRST CLASS. But had been DEMOTED."
So, he was demoted, but was never a PFC? Its possible that he was a SPECIALIST, but then received a FIELD GRADE ARTICLE 15. You can get busted two ranks in a field grade. Mind you, Field Grade Article 15s are done at the battalion level or higher so he would have had to have screwed up big time to get a hit like that. Not that I am suprised.
And I was getting all fired up on starting to call him ex-PFC Beauchamp.
Posted by: BohicaTwentyTwo at August 07, 2007 06:48 AM (oC8nQ)
32
Let’s remember that the new Managing Editor of TNR, Franklin Foer, is the degenerate spawn of one of the farthest left “historians” on the fake-history bash-the-USA academicide front. Papa Foer has won many historical prizes for consistently unmaksing the evils in America, especially during the Reconstruction, and still presides at Columbia U., where “left” means “centrist” and “centrists” don’t exist.
Evil Poppa begets evil son who enables evil chronicler. Just connect the dots. No fault on the left, as Mark Rudd told me decades ago when I was a deluded SDS volunteer. He smoked my dope & left me with the advice, "Dare to cheat, dare to win." Could be Columbia U's motto! At least when CSJ hands out Pulitzers!
Posted by: daveinboca at August 07, 2007 08:01 AM (muPb3)
33
Let’s remember that the new Managing Editor of TNR, Franklin Foer, is the degenerate spawn of one of the farthest left “historians” on the fake-history bash-the-USA academicide front. Papa Foer has won many historical prizes for consistently unmaksing the evils in America, especially during the Reconstruction, and still presides at Columbia U., where “left” means “centrist” and “centrists” don’t exist.
Evil Poppa begets evil son who enables evil chronicler. Just connect the dots. No fault on the left, as Mark Rudd told me decades ago when I was a deluded SDS volunteer. He smoked my dope & left me with the advice, "Dare to cheat, dare to win." Could be Columbia U's motto! At least when CSJ hands out Pulitzers!
Posted by: daveinboca at August 07, 2007 08:01 AM (muPb3)
34
there IS NO disfigured woman!!!
OBVIOUSLY a fabrication.
A disfigured person in a war zone? How could THAT possibly happen?
Posted by: Pere Ubu at August 07, 2007 08:58 AM (ljEJx)
35
It's Official: He's through
http://www.weeklystandard.com/weblogs/TWSFP/2007/08/beauchamp_recants.asp
Posted by: Big Country at August 07, 2007 09:59 AM (q7b5Y)
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August 05, 2007
TNR: Not Quite All the News that's Fit to Print
***Major Correction Below***
A funny thing happened on the way to
The New Republic's verification/justification/re-investigation of the series of stories published in
TNR by one Scott Thomas Beauchamp.
The editors of
The New Republic declared:
... After questions were raised about the veracity of his essay, TNR extensively re-reported Beauchamp's account.
In this process, TNR contacted dozens of people. Editors and staffers spoke numerous times with Beauchamp. We also spoke with current and former soldiers, forensic experts, and other journalists who have covered the war extensively. And we sought assistance from Army Public Affairs officers...
It's quite interesting that in publishing the
findings of an investigation in which the magazine's very reputation hangs in the balance, that
The New Republic somehow forgot to cite the names and positions of the experts who corroborate their magazine's printed claims. Typically, the providing of such information is viewed as lending credibility to the organization attempting to defend itself.
Fortunately for
The New Republic, I was able to find one of their experts, and the conversation I had with her was enlightening, to say the least.
As noted above, among the experts that
TNR relied on were Army Public Affairs Officers, or PAOs.
Among the reasons
The New Republic contacted Army PAOs was an attempt to verify this claim:
Beauchamp's essay consisted of three discrete anecdotes. In the first, Beauchamp recounted how he and a fellow soldier mocked a disfigured woman seated near them in a dining hall. Three soldiers with whom TNR has spoken have said they repeatedly saw the same facially disfigured woman. One was the soldier specifically mentioned in the Diarist. He told us: "We were really poking fun at her; it was just me and Scott, the day that I made that comment. We were pretty loud. She was sitting at the table behind me. We were at the end of the table. I believe that there were a few people a few feet to the right."
The recollections of these three soldiers differ from Beauchamp's on one significant detail (the only fact in the piece that we have determined to be inaccurate): They say the conversation occurred at Camp Buehring, in Kuwait, prior to the unit's arrival in Iraq. When presented with this important discrepancy, Beauchamp acknowledged his error. We sincerely regret this mistake.
The New Republic posted the results of their investigation, including the passages cited above, late on the afternoon of August 2nd.
On August 3rd, I contacted Major Renee D. Russo, Third Army/USARCENT PAO at Camp Arifjan, Kuwait, in an attempt to fact-check the new claim that the verbally assault on a female burn victim occurred at Camp Buehring, Kuwait, and not at Forward Operating Base Falcon in Iraq as he had claimed after his series of articles published by
The New Republic was first disputed.
In a response posted on August 3rd,
Major Russo stated:
Mr. Owens,
We have received other media queries on the alleged incident, but have
not been able to find anyone to back it up. There is not a police
report or complaint filed on this incident during that timeframe. Right now it is considered to be a Urban Legend or Myth.
I am still researching the incident and will have to get back with you
later with any new developments.
This statement was viewed by many as quite problematic for the credibility of
The New Republic and Beauchamp; not only had they been put in a position where they felt compelled to retract a key element that established the tone of narrative in "Shock Troops"--and one that fatally undermined Beauchamp's premise that the horrors of combat had caused him psychological trauma, as he had not yet been to war--it also cast serious doubts on the claimed event having occurred at Camp Buehring as well, or perhaps at all.
After publishing the information above, that the Beauchamp story is "considered to be an urban legend or myth," I asked Major Russo if she had been contacted by Franklin Foer or any other reporter or editor from the New Republic attempting to verify their new Camp Buehring claim.
It seemed odd to me that with their magazine's reputation on the line, they would go to press without attempting to verify the story of Beauchamp's location shifting.
It so happens that Jason Zengerle, Senior Editor of
The New Republic did contact Major Russo. What did Major Russo tell Editor Zengerle?
According to Major Russo:
I released the same information that I gave you. The process and answers are the same when dealing with media queries.
In other words, the Army PAO contacted by
The New Republic was told by the PAO that the claim could not be verified, and that the burn victim story was regarded as an "urban legend or myth"... and
The New Republic ran their story without disclosing this apparent contradiction.
Apparently,
The New Republic decided for their readers and critics that they did not need to know that the military considered Beauchamp's claim an urban legend.
It makes one wonder if any of their other un-credited, unnamed people relayed a similar tale, only to have that news covered-up by the editors of
The New Republic.
Update/Correction: Though he has not attempted to refute these claims directly with me, Jason Zegerle, senior editor at
The New Republic, is disputing them via John Podhoretz at
The Corner:
Zengerle has emailed me to say he actually received an communique about this from Maj. Renee Russo (yes, that's her real name), an Army public-affairs officer, the day after the Note was published rather than before. He also points out that Russo's email to him differs from other statements by Russo in that she told him "a couple of soldiers did say that [they] heard rumors about the incident, but nothing based on fact. More like an urban legand [sic]."
The public-affairs officer told Bob Owens of Confederate Yankee that "we have received other media queries on the alleged incident, but have not been able to find anyone to back it up. There is not a police report or complaint filed on this incident during that timeframe. Right now it is considered to be a Urban Legend or Myth." She did not mention the "couple of soldiers" who "did say that [they] heard rumors about the incident," but the repetition of the "urban legend" term kind of implies that.
Is Zengerle's claim that he didn't receive word from Russo until
after the August 2
TNR investigation accurate?
I don't know that for a fact, and didn't know that for a fact when I published, and so I owe Jason Zengerle an apology.
It doesn't much matter if what he says is factually true; what matters is that I made an
assumption that in my mind was obvious. It was, in retrospect, guided by what I thought was probably true based upon the way the magazine has and continues to act, instead of what I could support with the facts.
I apologize to Jason Zengerle, and I apologize to my readers for making that unsupported assumption.
That said... why did
TNRdecide
once again to publish before their fact-checking had been complete?
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
06:44 AM
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1
Ouch! That'll leave another mark.
But don't forget, Beauchamp exists, Bob. They got that part right. You can't deny that. 1!one!11!!
Posted by: daleyrocks at August 05, 2007 08:11 AM (0pZel)
2
Hmmmm.
I think it's clear now that TNR will have to release the names of those people contacted so that the independent verification process can continue.
Posted by: memomachine at August 05, 2007 09:15 AM (0aIoB)
3
Sometimes you step in some stinky stuff and no matter how much you scrape and scrape, it just will not come off.
Posted by: 1sttofight at August 05, 2007 09:55 AM (N0PbM)
4
I'll point out that there is a character like the one mentioned -- a woman disfigured by an IED, written about by Brad Thor.
However, she appears in a FICTIONAL thriller... Perhaps Beauchamp is a Brad Thor fan?
http://www.scifan.com/writers/tt/ThorBrad.asp
Posted by: thanos at August 05, 2007 11:37 AM (gHDgB)
5
I heard it was the Easter Bunny that was the first to make fun of the disfigured woman. Batman and Robin then joined in on the insults.
Posted by: El Guapo at August 05, 2007 11:42 AM (mylCw)
6
Next announcement from TNR: "The character of Scott B. is a composite of many people who were made up to say made up stuff to provide an insight which will satisfy democrats about Iraq."
Posted by: graham p at August 05, 2007 11:47 AM (uwi2e)
7
Nice research, Thanos....

Posted by: Ma Sands at August 05, 2007 11:54 AM (BCf3W)
8
CY,
A followup question. TNR and later you contacted Maj. Russo, the PAO at Camp Arifjan in Kuwait. TNR now claims that the "corroborated woman" [sic] has been placed by a witness at Camp Buehring in Kuwait, and that Beauchamp has conceded that he and a pal (a number of pals?) did the taunting there, before being deployed to FOB Falcon in Baghdad.
Does Russo serve as the PAO for Camp Behring as well as for Camp Arifjan? Or is there another PAO for Camp Behring who should be available for comment?
Second question: is the timeline of Beachamp's arrival in Kuwait and departure to Iraq known well enough to provide "not earlier than" and "not later than" dates for the chow hall incident?
Posted by: AMac at August 05, 2007 12:12 PM (9jxMs)
9
How long will it be before TNR comes out with the old cover: "Names and places were changed to protect the innocent"?
The only thing correct at the TNR is their name... they want to replace the old republic with a new one they learned about from their leftists teachers (indoctrinators) back when they happened to show up for the sit-in at college.
Posted by: ThinkPeople at August 05, 2007 12:23 PM (iSn6Y)
10
Did it ever occur to you guys that 5 soldiers just may have told the Army that they didn't know about the events because none of them were worth getting in trouble over? Can you at least admit that this hypothesis is in the realm of the possible?
Posted by: The Voice of Reason at August 05, 2007 12:41 PM (K1Emm)
11
Beachamp's has now been fully identified as John Stoltz of Daily Kos whose job description is to make US soldiers out to be barbarian unAmerican aliens! Alas, the citizenry refuses to be bullied into accepting their lies and misinformation campaigns. Long live the US Military who spend their lives (all too often, literally) defending our freedoms--even the freedom to be fools and charlatens such as John Stoltz and Thomas Beachchamp.
Posted by: marlowe anderson at August 05, 2007 12:52 PM (81PLI)
12
"Did it ever occur to you guys that 5 soldiers just may have told the Army that they didn't know about the events because none of them were worth getting in trouble over?"
Isn't that reversing the burden of proof? TNR was challenged, as to the credibility of an author, and has now admitted that the circumstances of the most important allegation were factually incorrect - Kuwait before seeing combat, not Iraq after seeing combat.
No evidence to support that it happened in Kuwait, either, has been produced, and your hypothesis is that "5 soldiers" would commit a crime by lying to an investigative officer because none of the events "were worth getting in trouble over?"
Sorry, but it doesn't pass the laugh test.
Posted by: Bruce Rheinstein at August 05, 2007 12:59 PM (r9vMZ)
13
Sure Voice, but isn't it more reasonable that Scott is a lieing sack of dog poo?
Posted by: David at August 05, 2007 01:01 PM (qzwdJ)
14
No evidence to support that it happened in Kuwait, either, has been produced, and your hypothesis is that "5 soldiers" would commit a crime by lying to an investigative officer because none of the events "were worth getting in trouble over?"
An investigative officer? I thought it was a PAO asking the questions.
Posted by: The Voice of Reason at August 05, 2007 01:09 PM (K1Emm)
15
Hmmmm.
@ The Voice of Reason
"An investigative officer? I thought it was a PAO asking the questions."
1. Try to keep up. The PAO is in Kuwait, the soldiers are in Iraq. The official investigation is in Iraq, where the soldiers are. The "researching" is being done in Kuwait by the PAO because the official investigation wasn't extended to Kuwait.
And to forestall some additional silly comment about this the most probable reason why the US Army isn't investigation this latest allegation by Beauchamp is because we don't have any direct evidence that **Beauchamp** did in fact change his story so it occurs in Kuwait. So far only TNR's editor Foer has made that allegation. For all we know Foer has falsely claimed that Beauchamp agrees that the incident with the disfigured woman happened in Kuwait.
Why? Because changing his story like this, particularly if he *didn't tell the investigators first*, could cause the US Army to re-open it's investigation only this time in Kuwait.
Plus Beauchamp would be in even more trouble.
2. If you're thinking 5 soldiers lied to US Army investigators, in an incident that has come to the direct attention of General Petraeus, because they think it's no big deal, then you are absolutely wrong.
The conduct described can, and would, earn an Article-15 of the UCMJ. But that's just administrative punishment. Restriction to base, loss of specific privileges, reduction in rank and loss of pay are the punishments meted out for an Article-15.
Lying to investigators is a whole new set of issues that can lead directly to military prison.
I can guarantee you that no soldier in his right mind will risk being slammed with a court martial in order to avoid an Article-15.
Posted by: memomachine at August 05, 2007 01:33 PM (0aIoB)
16
Voice, you apparently missed the part where an official investigation was conducted at FOB Falcon, and that no one in the company nor in Beauchamp's platoon corroborated Beauchamp's allegations.
Posted by: SWLiP at August 05, 2007 01:36 PM (WfQGW)
17
The PAO doesn't ask questions of privates. They put out the information obtained by whoever investigated... in this case the commander or 15-6 officer. Besides, the whole point of the article was to show the dehumanization of troops after exposure to the horrors of war. Beauchamp hadn't been to Iraq yet. The fact that the rest of his tall tales are also false is beside the point. His premise is a lie, unless you too subscribe to the "fake, but accurate" school of journalism.
Posted by: Stashiu3 at August 05, 2007 02:06 PM (3oP4o)
18
Either Beauchamp is telling the truth, in which case he should be punished and discharged as soon as possible, or he's telling lies, in which case he'll make a fine TNR journalist with a lucrative side-gig 'discoursing' at Lefty gatherings.
Posted by: Clioman at August 05, 2007 02:12 PM (CNAh+)
19
"Voice of Reason"? Not so much.
Voice of Rationalization, more like.
Posted by: Ian Hamet at August 05, 2007 02:14 PM (hBNGD)
20
I prefer "Voice of Desperation."
Posted by: Fatmouse at August 05, 2007 03:06 PM (jUAFq)
21
The burden of showing the stories true should be TNRs. They are not doing a very good job of that.
At this point, I don't believe anything TNR says because their timeline is bad.
1) Beauchamp’s story is published
2) Criticism comes in
3) TNR "investigates" and "fact checks"
4) TNR continues to support the story as told
5) Criticism still comes in
6) TNR "investigates some more
7) TNR declares only one error found, one story was from Kuwait
If they fact checked at step 3, they would have found the location error the first time. Yet they supported the whole story as having been double checked. Their double check would have involved talking to the people in the unit in Iraq, not Kuwait. They would have known immediately. Once the first rechecking of the story was done, the story can't change locations because they re-verified it at the location listed in the story.
So Foer is lying about the location, his fact checking or both. I tend to think both and that the stories told were made up in the first place. Their purpose in printing the article doesn't match the new story very well. They have boxed themselves in, with no way out.
Jeff
Posted by: Jeff at August 05, 2007 03:17 PM (dsW+/)
22
I read a comment on some blog early on in this imbroglio that I thought was the best anecdotal refutation of the DFAC incident so far. The poster mentioned that Beauchamp and his buddy had no clue who they were insulting and could have potentially been insulting an officer or a contractor with access to influential officers. Seems to me most soldiers at that point would be worldly wise enough to not go shooting off their mouths without knowing if the person had rank to make them pay for those insults.
Posted by: Chas at August 05, 2007 03:22 PM (oNBzF)
23
Was Brad Thor the origin of the disfigured woman or Oliver Stone?
Posted by: capitano at August 05, 2007 03:23 PM (+NO33)
24
Up above, Thanos wrote that Brad Thor writes fiction; and in his fiction he has a woman who is disfigured by an IED.
In all likelihood BeauCHUMP took this fiction; and wove it into the story he SOLD TO The New Republic. TNR still claims the story they printed is accurate. And, then they closed shop for 3-weeks, and toodled off for vacation.
There's currently a movie out there, SHATTERED GLASS. If you've seen it; or even if you've just seen the trailer; you know it's about TNR, and their other LYING reporter. With the line in it; that the only truth in the article Stephen Glass authored was that "Nevada is a state in America."
Whoopie, for getting that one right. In a sea of lies.
As to John Stolz and Wesley Clark, lending their names to the current Kos Kids attempts to insult our soldiers; AGAIN, I SMELL BACKFIRE. Smells as good as napalm in the morning.
And, because of the Net we're protected. This stuff happens fast! I wouldn't touch a TNR magazine. Don't look for them. Don't buy them. Don't open them if I'm in a doctor's office waiting for an appointment, because I bring my own books.
HOWEVER, this BeauCHUMP story broke a a few of the blogs I read every day. Very early on, at (JUST ONE MINUTE: JOM) I learned that someone had gone over BeauCHUMP's pay records, and discovered that he had been demoted BEFOREHAND from Private First Class, to 2nd class.)
In a sense, because of the wonderful research that you get from the many people who come aboard the Net and comment, even Franklin Foer at TNR can learn something, he'd never learn with his own fact-checkers.
And, BeauCHUMP is married, and is supposed to marry Elsbeth, again, in October. So, the NET WINS. Hands down. While all you can be sure of is that to Franklin Foer that article from BeauCHUMP is just an expense.
Posted by: Carol Herman at August 05, 2007 04:18 PM (KWhzz)
25
chas,
You might think that, but anyone can make stupid decisions before considering the consequences. I did it as a private and learned why it was dumb. What makes me disbelieve it is that supposedly nobody took issue with the idiots. Even in a busy DFAC, someone running out in tears would be noticed and if, as Beauchamp claimed, she had been around a while, one of the officers or NCO's would have taken care of those morons.
Posted by: Stashiu3 at August 05, 2007 04:18 PM (3oP4o)
26
Stashiu3, you can't take care of "fictional reporting." It was passed off as the real deal.
Now, all you've got is a story full of holes.
While TNR "vacations."
Posted by: Carol Herman at August 05, 2007 04:22 PM (KWhzz)
27
Did it ever occur to you guys that 5 soldiers just may have told the Army that they didn't know about the events because none of them were worth getting in trouble over? Can you at least admit that this hypothesis is in the realm of the possible?
shorter voice of reason: can't you guys toss TNR a bone?
Posted by: R30C at August 05, 2007 04:40 PM (3+0jc)
28
I prefer "Voice of Desperation."
Nah, the whiff of desperation is coming entirely from the right here.
This is the best you guys can come up with to prove the insidious plot by the so-called Liberal MSM to tarnish the reputation of our fighting forces and destroy America?
Regardless of whether or not this guy lied -- and right now the evidence makes it all just he said/she said -- we're still talking about whether a woman got ridiculed and some dogs got ran over. On the scale of the monumental catastrophe that is Iraq, I just can't see how it matters whether Beauchamp's allegations are true or not. Yet here you guys are, clinging to this story as if it were as important as...I don't know, pick ANY story coming out of Iraq.
Posted by: The Voice of Reason at August 05, 2007 06:11 PM (K1Emm)
29
On the scale of the monumental catastrophe that is Iraq, I just can't see how it matters whether Beauchamp's allegations are true or not.
Why did it matter that Stephen Glass made up a software company? Why was he fired for it? Why was a movie made about it? Did his little indiscretion mean the software industry doesn't have problems?
Posted by: Jim Treacher at August 05, 2007 06:26 PM (0jtcT)
30
Why did it matter that Stephen Glass made up a software company? Why was he fired for it? Why was a movie made about it? Did his little indiscretion mean the software industry doesn't have problems?
Imagine going to the trouble of making up events in Iraq that you could sell as a story. Wouldn't you try for something a little more incendiary than running over dogs? I mean, there are plenty of real incidences there that beat this, hands down.
Posted by: The Voice of Reason at August 05, 2007 07:11 PM (K1Emm)
31
Well if this "incidence" isnt true maybe the "plenty of real incidences there that beat this, hands down." arent either. How many anti-war vets spewing stories of atrocities have to be proven liars before the left will believe that the military isnt a pack of homicidial maniacs? when did the left abandon the truth and decide a narrative supporting what they want to be true would suffice?
Posted by: chas at August 05, 2007 08:01 PM (oNBzF)
32
"Regardless of whether or not this guy lied -- and right now the evidence makes it all just he said/she said -- we're still talking about whether a woman got ridiculed and some dogs got ran over.
Then why do you feel the need to keep commenting. The truth is that he tried to smear the military with a bunch of lies. It's not he said/she said any more than anyone else who is guilty saying, "I didn't do it!" Beauchamp's story has been completely refuted by the Army, physical laws of nature, and his own stupidity. Allegations of war crimes (and desecration of human remains is certainly one he wrote about) are serious business and deserve more than administrative punishment. Unfortunately, I'm not his commander and unable to make that call.
Your defense, as pitiful as it is, of his ass-hattery is the only desperation I see going on. Continuing to minimize and rationalize this just makes you look stupid. Give it up.
Posted by: Stashiu3 at August 05, 2007 08:10 PM (3oP4o)
33
Beauchamp's next missive from the battlefield would have featured this notorious incident:
"And then, when we drove the Bradley back to the FOB ... caught on the door handle was a bloody, dangling hook!"
Posted by: Mike G in Corvallis at August 05, 2007 08:19 PM (uZ0g+)
34
Voice of Reason:
The "why this is important" reason is that Beauchamp's narrative, if believed, would show a unit out of control. The narrative is not just that he is less than a gentleman, but that all his pards are also depraved and acting in a sick fashion, all with the tacit--- if not acknowledged--- consent of their chain of command.
That is why so many military folks opining here think it is slandering shinola. A bad soldier can and does exist (there will always be a&^holes among us), but a bad command is a different story. I'm sure Beauchamp's Captain and Lieutenant are less than happy with his sorry butt right now because what he wrote is a direct reflection on their leadership.
Posted by: wjo at August 05, 2007 10:06 PM (cP6Lq)
35
Imagine going to the trouble of making up events in Iraq that you could sell as a story. Wouldn't you try for something a little more incendiary than running over dogs?
I would pick something incendiary enough to impress the editor, but not incendiary enough to attract widespread attention from people who could pick holes in my story. Back luck, Beauchamp.
Posted by: Jim Treacher at August 05, 2007 11:00 PM (0jtcT)
36
Imagine going to the trouble of making up events in Iraq that you could sell as a story. Wouldn't you try for something a little more incendiary than running over dogs?
Trouble is, Voice, that Beauchamp himself wrote on his blog that he intended to write a book about his experiences when he got out of the Army. He seemed to think that his service would give him Absolute Moral Authority, not unlike Mother Sheehan's. Alas for Scottie, he turned out to be a screwup and recognized as such by his superiors, who busted him in rank at least once. Apparently he seldom (if ever) went out on patrol, and instead was assigned to motor pool or ditch-digging detail, so his actual combat experiences were nonexistent. And if he wrote about the horrors of combat in his book, any claims could be refuted immediately.
So instead he wrote about an incident in a "chow hall" (hey, everyone has to eat), and about an incident during a cemetary exhumation and reburial (that supposedly happened to someone else), and about the driver of a BFV (again, someone else). And about how this damned obscene war dehumanizes us all ... even before we reach the war zone.
Or as Tom Lehrer put it ...
With the hell of war he's come to grips,
Policing up the filter tips!
It makes a fellow proud to be a soldier!
Posted by: Mike G in Corvallis at August 06, 2007 12:08 AM (uZ0g+)
37
Excuse me, but it's irrevelant if people don't say the truth to avoid Article 15s, because their actions will cause ripple effects through the unit and through the base itself.
Sergeant sees idiot walking around with Iraqi baby skull under his helmet, bitches him out for causing a sanitation nightmare and being an ***hole. Goes into the mess, and bitches about it with the other sergeants; the story goes around.
Scuttlebutt goes around the BFV community at the FOB about the psycho driver who likes to run over things, causing thrown tracks, and to avoid him like the plague.
Posted by: Ryan Crierie at August 06, 2007 06:19 AM (qgEHt)
38
I mean, there are plenty of real incidences there that beat this, hands down.
Thing is - they get reported and there are real consequences for the malefactors. Like the guy who raped the girl and killed the whole family to cover it up. He just got sentenced to like 100 years in case you didn't notice.
Posted by: Purple Avenger at August 06, 2007 08:06 AM (0d45V)
39
Wait... Bob, you're telling us that an Army PAO says he can't confirm information potentially embarrassing to the Army?
Well, that seals the deal for me. As a reporter, I've never known any publicists/public affairs people to ever lie or be less than absolutely forthcoming with the truth. Nope, never ever.
Posted by: Alex at August 06, 2007 08:09 AM (2EgQ8)
40
There is a very simple explanation as to why TNR got a different story than what the Army got. Statements and answered questions in a 15-6 investigation are written down and then signed by the soldier, going on record as official statements. If the answers or statements prove to be fabrications, this is tantamount to perjury, and are a violation of Article 107 of the UCMJ. The maximum punishment for making False Official Statements is dishonorable discharge, forfeiture of all pay and allowances, and confinement for 5 years.
Posted by: BohicaTwentyTwo at August 06, 2007 08:10 AM (oC8nQ)
41
Wait... Alex, you're a reporter? So what's your position on TNR clearly not vetting their story before publication? I mean, why would they have to confirm, then re-confirm, and re-confirm again if they had performed due diligence the first time? Also, have you ever built anything with chicken-wire to see if you could melt it?
You've definitely re-confirmed my opinion of reporters. Pondscum rates higher.
Posted by: Stashiu3 at August 06, 2007 09:18 AM (3oP4o)
42
I'd trust a public relations officer before I'd trust a far left wing ideological hack of a reporter like Alex.
Posted by: Capitalist Infidel at August 06, 2007 10:03 AM (Lgw9b)
43
Hmmmm.
@ Alex
"As a reporter, I've never known any publicists/public affairs people to ever lie or be less than absolutely forthcoming with the truth."
Except that a PAO is a commissioned *officer* in the US military and is held to a specific code of conduct. Violating that code of conduct, such as lying to the public/reporters, can result in dismissal, reduction in rank and host of other punishments.
At the very least it would end that officer's career in a bad way because the US military has a universal "up or out" policy. If you don't get promoted after, I believe, 2 promotion boards then you're "encouraged" to resign your commission. After the third one they dismiss you.
And something like this on a personnel jacket wouldn't be an advantage.
Posted by: memomachine at August 06, 2007 10:05 AM (3pvQO)
44
voice of reason,
Regardless of whether or not this guy lied -- and right now the evidence makes it all just he said/she said -- we're still talking about whether a woman got ridiculed and some dogs got ran over.
No, we're talking about whether The New Republic is printing agitprop. Beauchamp is less than meaningless. TNR is the most egregious actor here, and the problem is that they'd print such a fabulist without doing due diligence.
Alex,
Well, that seals the deal for me. As a reporter, I've never known any publicists/public affairs people to ever lie or be less than absolutely forthcoming with the truth. Nope, never ever.
And how about TNR? What's your experience with their history of veracity?
Posted by: Pablo at August 06, 2007 11:24 AM (yTndK)
45
Alex,
If you've ever been lied to by a PAO, please report it to the military and they'll take immediate action. If not, please retract your snide statement.
You seem to think that the military world (i.e. publicists vs. PAOs) works the same as the civilian world; THAT is the fatal flaw of most reporters view of the military.
Posted by: JFH at August 06, 2007 11:43 AM (c+Pwv)
46
Clearly TNR screwed the pooch. It should have been child's play to corroborate Beauchamp's BS.
The actions as related by Beauchamp would have had dozens, perhaps, hundreds of eye witnesses--some potentially hostile to the US. If it was common practice for the crazy BFV driver to ram into buildings, wouldn't there be Iraqi eye witnesses?
Posted by: Old Dad at August 06, 2007 12:33 PM (JQwWt)
47
JFH
"most reporters?" How about ALL liberals?
Posted by: Capitalist Infidel at August 06, 2007 12:35 PM (Lgw9b)
48
One thing that amzes me, and that I've not seen raised before, is that IF Beauchamp and his buddies had been insulting a burned woman in a mess hall/rec hall, I'd have expected a number of other soldier to have dragged them "out back" and "explained" to them that such conduct was not tolerated.
Posted by: Ralph at August 06, 2007 09:19 PM (DbToW)
49
CY,
Your Update/Correction/Apology to Jason Zengerle is noted. It is proper to take Zengerle at his word that he didn't hear back from the PAO in time to include that information in the 8/2/07 Statement that the TNR posted on their website.
Here is the final sentence of that Statement:
If further substantive information comes to light, TNR will, of course, share it with you.
I see no further Statement, or any Update or Correction to that one.
Once its mighty Presses have started inking the newsprint, it's hard for a biweekly magazine to alter content.
I thought most Web publishing software now included workarounds to address that problem.
Posted by: AMac at August 07, 2007 08:15 AM (9jxMs)
50
So, where's Voice of Reason? Where's Alex-the-reporter, telling us why it's all lies by the PAO?
I'm sure, if they show up, it'll be a song-and-dance about why Beauchamp lying doesn't change the underlying reality.
You know, "fake, but accurate."
Or, to borrow from Evan Thomas, editor at Newsweek: The narrative was true. It's just the facts that were off.
Posted by: Lurking Observer at August 07, 2007 01:01 PM (/ZD7V)
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August 03, 2007
It's Official: Beauchamp's Claims Debunked by Army Internal Investigation
Col. Steven Boylan, Public Affairs Officer for U.S. Army Commanding General in Iraq David Petraeus, just emailed me the following in response to my request to confirm an earlier report that the U.S. Army's investigation into the claims made by PV-2 Scott Thomas Beauchamp made in The New Republic had been completed.
He states:
To your question: Were there any truth to what was being said by
Thomas?
Answer: An investigation of the allegations were conducted by the
command and found to be false. In fact, members of Thomas' platoon and
company were all interviewed and no one could substantiate his claims.
As to what will happen to him?
Answer: As there is no evidence of criminal conduct, he is subject to
Administrative punishment as determined by his chain of command. Under
the various rules and regulations, administrative actions are not
releasable to the public by the military on what does or does not
happen.
Let's look at that once more: "members of Thomas' platoon and company were all interviewed and no one could substantiate his claims."
Presumably thorough, in-person interviews of
all of Alpha Company, 1/18 Infantry, Second Brigade Combat Team, First Infantry Division, and Beauchamp's platoon within Alpha Company by military investigators, and
not one of those soldiers could confirm Beauchamp's stories as told in
The New Republic.
Note that the investigation didn't just stop by stating that the claims were uncorroborated; Col. Boylan states categorically that Beauchamp's allegations were
false. Not a lot of wiggle room there.
It appears that the proverbial ball is now in
The New Republic's court. It will be interesting to see what their next move will be.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
11:30 PM
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1
The spin will be that this is obviously a cover-up. You can't trust the Army to actually investigate itself. Now that they've had time to get to the other platoon members, they will have intimidated them in to silence.
When Beauchamp gets out, he'll fall in to the arms of a sympathetic left that will still find his lying narrative too compelling to let go of.
He'll stand up at next year's Kos convention to huge "truth to power" applause while wearing reamnants of the uniform he's tried to dirty.
Posted by: iamnot at August 04, 2007 12:03 AM (WuvmZ)
2
Excellent work, Bob. I added an excerpt and link to my 2007.08.04 Long War // Dhimm Perfidy Roundup.
Posted by: Bill Faith at August 04, 2007 12:20 AM (n7SaI)
3
TNR, The New Republic, went on vacation for 3 weeks.
I'm sure when they come back, at the end of August, with their "next" issue; they'll consider this matter "closed.
I doubt they'll try to beat the army's way of investigating this crap of lies.
TNR also has to contend with Shattered Glass; the movie. And, you can see a trailer for this one. Where they were caught publishing a liar's lies. INSIDE THE "NEWS ROOM" indeed.
For a bunch of elites who make their livings from the MSM, you'd think they'd have learned something from Dan Rather's "fake but accurate" rendition of "it's not the truth, but if you're mentally ill, you can believe it."
Posted by: Carol Herman at August 04, 2007 12:23 AM (KWhzz)
4
Expect the Left to use the Tillman argument to try and discredit the Army's claims regarding Beauchamp.
Posted by: Kaitain at August 04, 2007 12:25 AM (4ep6C)
5
Well, that's important news, but it still leaves a lot of questions unanswered.
Most importantly, what did Beauchamp himself have to say? I would have imagined he was questioned, and whether under oath or not (it being the military I imagine there is an implied sanction for not answering truthfully) he either repeated his claims or he recanted them.
If he repeated them under official questioning, it seems to me he would be making a number of serious charges that fellow servicemembers violated the UCMJ, and that if he made false accusations in an official investigation, he would be criminally liable himself perjury or disobeying an order to give a truthful account, or whatever. Also of great interest is what evidence, if any, Beauchamp offered to support his accusations.
If he recanted his allegations, there is no hint of such so far.
What is described sounds like only half of the investigation I would have expected.
Posted by: LagunaDave at August 04, 2007 12:34 AM (PkttR)
6
S. C. R. E. W. what the left comes up with to spin out their little circle jerk of lies - no progressive fretted over fall out of their retarded frenzy over the Ben blogger at Washington Post!
Screw them - they lost. Most are on record blindly (not reading reports) and reflectively supporting TNR and defaulting to their typical homophobic "we hate gay position" when we have no argument -- so SCEEWWEEWWW the ever living daylights of them - eat crow, big fat beefy ugly chicken size rats with wings.
Posted by: Cruz at August 04, 2007 01:00 AM (mZEoF)
7
Not too important how the LLLibs spin it. The Army has witnesses willing to sign their names, under oath, to affidavits after investigation.
TNR has NOTHING OF THE SORT, even after publishing claims to have 'corroborated' every aspect, including forensics.
TNR = No Names to corroborate
US ARMY = Dozens of names, dates, affidavits...
Posted by: Karridine at August 04, 2007 01:07 AM (Xl4L3)
8
Wait just a dang minute! Scott Thomas Beauchamp exists and he's a U.S. soldier stationed in Iraq. Matt Sanchez is a former gay porn star who has been investigated for fraud.
What does the above have to do with the crap that TNR supposedly fact checked and then published as the truth and then rechecked and admitted only a "minor" error with on Thursday? Absolutely nothing. Beauchamp lied. TNR fell for it. Lefty supporters of the meme can stop desperately grasping at straws to protect the narrative.
Thank you for your persistance Bob.
Posted by: daleyrocks at August 04, 2007 01:31 AM (0pZel)
9
I think TNR knew the outcome of the Army's investigation before they wrote their latest CYA. They released it when they did to beat the Army to the punch and ensured it was vague enough to provide rhetorical wiggle room. I'm sure Franky Foer, et al., plan to treat Beauchump as yesterday's news three weeks hence.
Sorry Foer, but we don't forget so easily.
Posted by: Exurban Jon at August 04, 2007 01:56 AM (3GwKL)
10
HOOAH!
This DAV never bought the ***@&^@**@^&% anyway.
I DID read where the Leftinistra Moonbats in the Moonbat Belfries have stated that "Naturally, they protect their own".
I see a double negative and the usual double standard there. You?
Wouldn't protecting their own from the Big Bad Generals and the Upper Echelon require CONFIRMATION from his fellow soldiers?
Morons.
Posted by: Snooper at August 04, 2007 05:04 AM (NUKxz)
11
Although this has been alot of fun to joke and make fun about TNRs stupidity. This is also a very seriou issue. Some nut keeps claiming Beauchamp was a soldier, and he clearly wasn't.
Ohh sure, he joined the army, trained, went to Iraq, but he was never a real soldier, he was a writer that wanted a free ride to a war zone to have credibility when he wrote his great novel.
He never believed the oath he took, he never took any of it to heart.
The real investigation TNR should conduct is who did Beauchamp and his idiot buddies get killed.
If you actually believe his stories, then clearly he put other troops in danger repeatedly. There's very good reason for order and discipline in the military, its because everyone else depends on you, even with their lives.
Now I am not saying that Beauchamp actually killed anyone, but we have no way of knowing what events occurred due to his activities. For instance:
Did the women Beauchamp claimed he verbal abused and assaulted go back to work? Was she on duty when necessary or did she spend the afternoon crying with a friend? Did her duties get done, did someone else have to make up the slack. Was she integral to a mission, was she needed to provide support to guys in the field? There are a hundred other things that could have gone wrong due to Beauchamps claimed actions, including soldiers getting killed.
And in the Bradley story, did some Iraqi store owner see the Bradley barrelling down his street running into things and generally being a complete as-hole. Did that Iraqi later hear a conversation of guys in his shop planning to plant an IED on a convoy route. Or did he know his cousin had signed up to attack a checkpoint in a few days. He doesn't much like the Americans being there but he will tolerate it as long as progress is being made. DOES HE DECIDE NOT TO CALL IN A TIP TO THE IRAGI POLICE, OR THE FOB. How many Americans die in that IED blast, or that attack because Beauchamp didn't set his idiot buddy straight on how you act in someone elses house.
Maybe it didn't happen, but if these idiots continued this stuff for their full tour, somebody would have been killed or injured, someone else's back wasn't being watched, someones support would be delayed, someone wasn't paying attention and a sniper got a drop, or an ambush was successful.
Beauchamp was never a real soldier, he was more interested in writing stories then having his head in the game, and he allowed others around him to also fail their comrades. Those people get others killed, but Foer and his gang would never understand that. They think its a big gotcha game.
Perhaps Mr. Foer would like to escort a fallen soldiers casket home to his family and he could regale them in how great it was to have the guy that was supposed to be watching his back, instead taking notes or acting out in order to get a story published.
You notice the first thing Foer did when he had a perceived problem in his troop (leaker reported diarist was married to someone at TNR), he got rid of them to maintain good order and discipline within TNR. To bad he didn't give the Army the same choice, he knowingly had them keep someone who wasn't doing his duty to the best of his ability, so he could get some juicy stories.
They all make me sick.
Posted by: Poppy at August 04, 2007 07:54 AM (dJFjD)
12
Another comment that always gets me is the, 'How dare you question my actions, honor, truthfulness, etc., I was in the war, etc'
John Kerry is famous for this excuse, and Beauchamp appears to have been giving him a run for the title.
But in the real world, soldiers never use this excuse, they know their actions will be questioned and they are prepared to defend them
or to step up and admit they screwed up and will do better next time.
You never see a soldier go before his Squad leader, Commander etc. and say, "How dare you question me".
As soon as they do that, you know its a liberal whiner with an excuse.
Posted by: Poppy at August 04, 2007 08:13 AM (dJFjD)
13
Beauchamp lied TNR died
Posted by: Capitalist Infidel at August 04, 2007 09:05 AM (Lgw9b)
14
I am just sick to death of these fools and their agenda. There needs to be consequences for both Beauchamp and TNR.
Why are they allowed to disseminate lies and go unpunished?
Thank God for the blogs.
Posted by: dianainsa at August 04, 2007 10:36 AM (t7XCC)
15
The Army also initially said Jessica Lynch went down fighting and Pat Tillman died due to enemy fire, so I think it's a little early to be claiming vindication.
Posted by: N.C. at August 04, 2007 10:53 AM (okirY)
16
There's a little something in the latest from TNR (https://ssl.tnr.com/p/docsub.mhtml?i=20070723&s=diarist072307) that I haven't seen any other blog pick up yet, and BLACKFIVE and company might handle it best.
TNR: “On the phone, this soldier later told us that he had witnessed another soldier wearing the skull fragment just as Beauchamp recounted…”
Just as Beauchamp recounted in ‘Shock Troops’ was as follows:
“One private, infamous as a joker and troublemaker, found the top part of a human skull…”
To my admittedly decades old experience, based on time in service and training requirements, few soldiers in our army are shipped anywhere overseas, be it to Germany or Iraq, before attaining to the rank of at least PFC (Private First Class). Almost a year ago, on his own blog, Beauchamp stated his rank was that of PFC (http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2007/07/pvt_beauchamp_in_big_trouble_e.html), and not the lower rank he is now, Private. That indicates a probable loss of rank, or, some kind of, er, ‘trouble’ he got into, noted by quite a few. I would seriously expect that there would be very few privates in Beauchamp’s unit, Alpha Company, 1/18 Infantry, Second Brigade Combat Team, First Infantry Division. That Beauchamp himself described the man who desecrated the dead child’s remains as both a private and someone who was ‘infamous as a joker and troublemaker’ leads me to ask, especially the folks at TNR….infamous in the sense that he would also mock a woman disfigured by an IED - for laughs, and a troublemaker as in – he was busted in rank? Did the soldier TNR spoke with on the phone who told TNR ‘that he had witnessed another soldier wearing the skull fragment’ indicate that the soldier doing so was Beauchamp, or was the identity of that soldier even asked about?
We now have it supposedly confirmed, with the admission by Beuachamp, that he mocked a disfigured woman while in Kuwait, well before he was 'dehumanized' by war. I have little trouble imagining that someone who would claim he did so to a disfigured woman could be the same kind of a--wipe that would enjoy some fun with the remains of a dead child.
Posted by: Denis Keohane at August 04, 2007 11:08 AM (XKRTZ)
17
n.c. - yes, you're correct about Lynch and Tillman. Doesn't mean the Army IS "covering up" here. And all we have to substantiate Beauchamp's claims are "annonymous" sources. And, of course his wife.
And it still leaves open the question that IF what he said is true, why did he violate his oath and not report these things?
BTW, I served (combat infantry)in Vietnam and saw LOTS of terrible things, but never saw anyone get away with it. Not once.
Posted by: realwest at August 04, 2007 11:10 AM (6vywl)
18
Oops...
...the age and onslaught of decreptitude thing...
Got to Confederate Yankee via a link at BLACKFIVE, and posted the previous comment thinking I was still at that site! Apologies to CY!
Posted by: Denis Keohane at August 04, 2007 11:12 AM (XKRTZ)
19
I think the key question to ask here is who's interests are at stake. Obviously, TNR wants to maintain their legitimacy (what they have left of it), so they're going to claim that this is a cover-up and that other soldiers confirmed Beauchamp's story. That's a no brainer.
On the other hand, the Army also has a vested interest in claiming that Beauchamp's story is false. If it was true, it would just help to make an already unpopular war look worse in the eyes of civilians. So the Army will deny the claims. This too, is a no brainer.
The point is, don't jump to conclusions. I'm not defending TNR, I just think all of this should be taken with a healthy dose of skepticism. After all, skepticism is what brought attention to this issue in the first place.
Posted by: keram at August 04, 2007 11:14 AM (GEJUM)
20
Its march 1, 2006 and a Marine just back from Iraq made a few posts at Democratic Underground. He had been a DU member before going to Iraq and initially was treated as a returning hero. Unfortunately he didnt validate the notion that US troops routinely committed atrocitiesagree with the hive mind of Democratic Underground.
He was repeatedly asked to corroborate reports of American troop atrocities and corruption and he said no, the reports were false. The general attitude to him changed abruptly and he was banned. Is it really any wonder so many on the left are perceived as such vile scum?
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x546932#546959
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=user_profiles&u_id=154844
At the time I was reading that thread as it happened. It was sickening to see how they turned on him, ostensibly one of their own, just because he wouldnt tell them what they wanted to hear. I was a member of a conservative political discussion forum at the time and we got a message to him asking him to stop by. He did and he was treated respectfully and repeatedly thanked for his service to our country. The difference in the way he was treated, even by people that generally disagreed with his Democrat ideas, was striking.
Heres an interesting take on it at the DUmmie Funnies the day after.
http://dummiefunnies.blogspot.com/2006/03/dummie-funnies-03-02-06-i-just-got.html
The right side of the aisle is obviously not as pure as the driven snow. But I think we do a much better job of keeping our own house in order than the Democrats do.
The Democratic leadership refuses to even consider distancing itself, let alone disagreeing, with such extreme leftist sites like Democratic Underground and Daily Kos. And as long as they continue to pander to such places, and the blogosphere continues to expose the stench of those places to everyday moderate Americans, the Democrats will make themselves less and less relevant.
Posted by: Rico at August 04, 2007 11:15 AM (Axsbs)
21
N.C. and realwest - I hate to burst your bubble, but the media jumped the gun and created the Jessica Lynch myth, not the military. Do some homework.
Posted by: daleyrocks at August 04, 2007 11:29 AM (0pZel)
22
Let's get some official statement, then comment.
Posted by: TCO at August 04, 2007 11:34 AM (1UMjQ)
Posted by: Matt Sanchez at August 04, 2007 11:41 AM (ms3nF)
24
The Army also initially said Jessica Lynch went down fighting and Pat Tillman died due to enemy fire, so I think it's a little early to be claiming vindication.
Concerning Jessica Lynch, this is a lie. No official source from the Army ever claimed any such thing about Lynch. The original report was leaked to the media from an anonymous, unofficial source (sort of like Beauchamp), and the Army refused to award Lynch the medals the Democratic senators from West Virginia were demanding she get, until their investigation was complete. It was the Army who ultimately revealed the truth about Lynch's capture.
As for Tillman, again, the Army command eventually uncovered and revealed the truth after someone lower on the totem pole made a false report (sort of like Beauchamp). And those responsible for the false report were eventually held to account (sort of like Beauchamp, I hope).
Posted by: LagunaDave at August 04, 2007 12:00 PM (PkttR)
25
Re: Jessica Lynch.
Her "heroism" occured initially in only one place, in an anonymous-sourced Page One article in the Washington Post, by Dana Priest.
Either Priest made up the story, or she actually had a source who made up the story, but she has preserved the anonymity of the "source" that "burned" her, indicating to me that there probably never was a source. The Post is the fondest of "anonymous" sources of all major papers, and you could do worse than assuming that an anonymous source is really the reporter talking, as in the way "experts say" usually means "my opinion is, but I haven't the nerve to assert it without this fig leaf of cover."
This incident, where TNR editor Stephen Glass uncritically accepted Beauchump's "there I was, no $#!+" tales as true, is typical of the confirmation biases in the journosphere. Journalists are human and like to see their biases (which they may not even recognise as biases) confirmed as much as any other human.
Where Glass messed up is when he doubled down on Beauchump, and told several different and self-contradictory stories about his "fact-checking," which probably never happened until Michael Goldfarb called him out on it.
We all watched Glass stumble, and mumble, and look like a fool. The one thing Glass acted decisively on was in firing a staffer who leaked the fact that Beauchump was Mrs Elspeth Reeve, a fact Glass was trying desperately to keep secret.
(That, by the way, also exposes Reeve as a typical practitioner of TNR-style journalism, in at least two stories predating her stint at TNR where she quotes Beauchump as man-in-the-street or man-in-the-event in the story, without mentioning that, oh by the way, he's banging her, and they went to the event together).
Oh, did I say Glass? I meant Franklin Foer. My bad. Understandable error, though, innit?
And journalists wonder why they're the least popular profession.
Posted by: Kevin R.C. 'Hognose' O'Brien at August 04, 2007 12:04 PM (LkeNv)
26
iamnot is right on the mark. Not only will he believe his lies, but he could be a future congressional representative from Massachusetts
Posted by: sako3006 at August 04, 2007 12:25 PM (XpEQ7)
27
There's a scene in The Simpsons Movie where Fat Tony ,the Mob boss, plans to dump a body in a lake, but police catches him. Fat Tony says he'll just have to take his 'hedge trimmings' elsewhere.
Lou tells Chief Wiggum he thinks it was a dead body Tony was holding.
Wiggum says "I thought so too, until he said they were hedge trimmings".
You, citizen journalists on the far right, are like Chief Wiggum.
Posted by: lulzy at August 04, 2007 01:16 PM (1pIQs)
28
Betraying their ignorance of military matters, morons on the left are baffled over how an investigation involving a platoon could be completed so quickly when it took so long to complete inquiries into Abu Ghraib and Haditha.
D'oh! It's obvious the entire platoon was waterboarded and intimidated into slanting their testimony against rigorously fact-checked TNR and Beauchamp who had no motivation to lie.
No common sense in these lefties at all. I think the fatalities and injuries reported in Beauchamp's pieces slowed the process down and increaded the number of witnesses to be interviewed. Otherwise it would have been over sooner.
Mental giants they are not.
Posted by: daleyrocks at August 04, 2007 01:16 PM (0pZel)
29
lulzy
And Beauchamp is Tony! (you know, the criminal liar)
Posted by: TMF at August 04, 2007 01:18 PM (2MS1q)
30
If I ever commit a crime that warranted harsh punishment, I hope everyone takes me at my word when I deny wrongdoing.
Posted by: lulzy at August 04, 2007 01:18 PM (1pIQs)
31
I like to see - just one - apology from a Loon who not only bought into, but spread, this pack of lies.
I'd also like to see gas at thirty-seven cents a gallon.
Posted by: Gerry Shuller at August 04, 2007 01:20 PM (/MHIt)
32
Lets see, unconditionally believing a PROVEN and ADMITTED liar/narcissist/scam artist (like BeauCHUMP)= reasonable
Believing the US Military (who has repeatedly and publically owned up to any misdeeds of its members after thorough investigations)= your a bunch of suckers
LOL Lulzy, good one
Posted by: TMF at August 04, 2007 01:24 PM (2MS1q)
33
"after thorough investigations"
Precisely. I'm not prematurely ejaculating over a set of interviews with people who may or may not have something to hide. I'm waiting for thorough investigations.
Thank you my dear.
"How does the defendant plead?"
"Not guilty your honor."
"Well that's good enough for me. Let's go home."
Posted by: lulzy at August 04, 2007 01:45 PM (1pIQs)
34
remember when tnr published that pack of lies regarding pat tillman's death by enemy fire? damn you, msm!
KEvron
Posted by: KEvron at August 04, 2007 02:15 PM (sSSem)
35
More transparent than the media.
Posted by: Purple Avenger at August 04, 2007 02:40 PM (0d45V)
36
Oh I see, this clown gets caught with his pants down, and the anti-troop left wants to divert everyones attention to other scandals.
guess 2 wrongs make a right, huh leftists
I always knew you were good little Stalinists
Liar=Hero
Posted by: TMF at August 04, 2007 02:41 PM (2MS1q)
37
Id say the abu ghraib, tillman, haditha and other investigations have been pretty damn transparent, yes.
Hell of alot more transparent than TNRs buffoonish "fact checking"
"Yes, hes married to one of our people. Thats enough for us. Hes reliable"
"BUt what about the fact that he wasnt even in Iraq when these incidences occurred, and hadnt even heard a shot fired?"
"Does not Compute...."
LOL
Posted by: TMF at August 04, 2007 02:46 PM (2MS1q)
38
The left and the media still have the Cronkheit Krankheit (ger., = sickness, disease).
Posted by: Brian H at August 04, 2007 03:23 PM (n836S)
39
BTW, TNF;
you just stomped on one of my pet peeve sorespots. Incidence means frequency; it's a statistics term. "The incidence of drunk driving rises during long weekends."
Incident means event, occurrence; incidents are several of them. "There were some incidents of drunk driving last weekend."
Posted by: Brian H at August 04, 2007 03:27 PM (n836S)
40
I think we can find a spare limb for him in the same tree as Pelosi, Reid, and Murtha,
Posted by: the_right_reverend at August 04, 2007 05:30 PM (NbjxG)
41
Don't tell me, let me guess. TNR will report that after even more exhaustive re-re-re-reporting and the discovery of more anonymous, but unimpeachable sources, they stand by Beauchamp's stories and their publishing of same because even though the Army "claims" they're false, it is the fascist Army who is pressuring the troops to lie about what really happened. They might even find an anonymous source or two to expose the Army's coverup!
After all, it is exposure to the Army and war that warps sensitive, tortured souls like Beauchamp and forces them to commit atrocities. Goodness, the corrosive power is so great that even coming within a country of a war zone has the same effect! And of course, the Army can't have Beauchamp's obviously true stories being corroborated because that would expose the Army for the corrupt imperialist stooges, whose only purpose is to enrich Bush's oil buddies and to oppress brown people, they are.
TNR will see no need, apart from a niggling, insignificant detail here and there (you know, like being hundreds of miles and months off), not to believe Beauchamp, and will essentially say, "we believe it, you can't prove it didn't happen, and you're all right wing lunatic liars anyway, so there! Nyah! Nyah!"
Posted by: Mike at August 04, 2007 07:07 PM (yGPvp)
42
Hmmmm.
@ CY
Let's have a writing contest. The person who writes a claptrap "no-crap-I-was-there" story in the writing style of Beauchamp gets a round of applause from everyone else.
Posted by: memomachine at August 04, 2007 08:28 PM (0aIoB)
43
TNR fell into the Left's Kultursmog where facts completely at variance with perceptions and dogma are absolutely discounted.
For instance, the actual tyrants in Cuba and Venezuela are given kid glove treatment because they are instituting revolutionary socialism and resisting the imperial hegemon. However, in this country the duly elected President and Vice-President are pilloried and slandered as fascist dictators.
This Beauchamp incident highlights exactly how hidebound the Left is to its "reality". So much so, that actual reality that our guys still wear the white hats and are not brutal automatons is too much. Rigorous fact-checking doesn't mean squat if you don't question your own bias of the narrative itself.
Posted by: wjo at August 04, 2007 08:42 PM (cP6Lq)
44
It's official - 100% of soldiers polled said 'No, I don't want an Article 15!'
http://www.balloon-juice.com/?p=8505
http://hotair.com/archives/2007/08/04/army-spokesman-investigation-shows-beauchamps-allegations-are-false/
Posted by: Barry at August 04, 2007 08:42 PM (hRXQQ)
45
Strange we don't see the defenders from other threads in here.
Barry, what you have here is the prisoner's dilemma. Everyone interviewed had to sign a sworn statement. Lying on sworn statement is another article. If the entire platoon is interviewed, that would mean each of 50 people have to be committed to lying in an official statement, breaking more laws, and trusting everyone to do the same. It may be possible, but it isn't very probable.
I have been through mass interviews like this before.
Posted by: y7 at August 04, 2007 10:03 PM (Cixed)
46
It is obvious that Pvt. Beauchamp is suffering from a previously undiscovered disease of war. He has PTSD, Pre Traumatic Stress Disorder. Unlike previous war where you actually had to see combat to get it, like WW1's Shell Shock and WW2's Combat Exhaustion, Viet Nam's Post Traumatic Stress Disorder, this war is so awful a sterling soul like poor PVT Beauchamp can turn into a monster before ever hearing an unexpected loud noise.
We should thank TNR for bringing this horrible disease to our attention.
Posted by: Peter at August 04, 2007 10:29 PM (dXZhb)
47
On the money y7. I conducted an AR-15 investigation once. "Raise your right hand" etc. Mr. Premature Ejaculation lulzy needs to get some medication to help himself with that problem and not try to apply it where he has monumental ignorance. The Army legal system is a command system and the results of an official investigation, even down to the unit level are valid and legal.
BTW, I saw a posting of the beachaump character's 1SG comments. You could read behind the lines that Beauchamp is a DIRTBALL.
Posted by: gm at August 04, 2007 11:24 PM (x3Y0C)
48
Hey, Barry,
Of course, what Johnny "of course they can’t corroborate it" Cole overlooks is that by his logic, TNR CAN’T EITHER!!!!!!!!
Which pretty much leaves us where we have always been: those with a predisposition to hate and slander the troops will believe any wild story; those without it.... won’t.
Copperheads.
Posted by: SDN at August 05, 2007 12:24 AM (d/wQ5)
49
""The Army also initially said Jessica Lynch went down fighting and Pat Tillman died due to enemy fire, so I think it's a little early to be claiming vindication.
posted by N.C. at August 4, 2007 10:53 AM"""
Not on point. The army never claimed these things and besides, the Army never said Jessica Lynch was shot with Square bullets or that Pat Tillman was killed in Greece, or Alaska.
Beauchamp can't even get his stories in the right country.
Posted by: Poppy at August 05, 2007 07:15 AM (dJFjD)
50
Here's the actually truth about jessica Lynch, since NC doesn't see fit to fact check, kind of like beauchamp and TNR.
""Initial news reports, including those in The Washington Post, which cited unnamed U.S. officials with access to intelligence reports, described Lynch emptying her M-16 into Iraqi soldiers. The intelligence reports from intercepts and Iraqi informants said that Lynch fought fiercely, was stabbed and shot multiple times, and that she killed several of her assailants. ""
""The Post's initial coverage attracted widespread criticism because many of the sources were unnamed and because the accounts were soon contradicted by other military officials.""
It was the Army that was knocking down the story and the press that was running with it.
Posted by: Poppy at August 05, 2007 07:21 AM (dJFjD)
51
Hmmmm.
Ok. How many times does this idiot nonsense about Jessica Lynch and Pat Tillman have to keep coming up?
Frankly that's one of the things I find really irritating about liberals. They generally don't know anything and proudly wear their ignorance like a badge.
Posted by: memomachine at August 05, 2007 09:21 AM (0aIoB)
52
TNR == "Truth? No Relation!"
Posted by: Rob Crawford at August 05, 2007 01:11 PM (bH9q3)
53
Stephen Glass in ACUs! Hah! Of course, Glass went on to Georgetown Law School and is probably making a fortune now in a profession where lying is expected of you. I see such a bright future for Beauchamp....
Posted by: Michael Fumento at August 05, 2007 06:55 PM (uZVcT)
54
memomachine - those stories and ones like them will keep coming up because they work. There are enough people that will latch onto the story but not look too hard for the disproof, to make it worthwhile for progressives to use these for political purposes. Once a story is swallowed, people have an incentive not to have to vomit it back up.
Posted by: Assistant Village Idiot at August 05, 2007 07:20 PM (YQFD4)
55
Hmmm.
@ Assistant Village Idiot
Yeah. Personally were I Bush I'd form a Presidential Commission to investigate bad reporting from Iraq and Afghanistan.
Force these reporters and their editors to stand up in front of the Commission, and the tv cameras, and testify under oath why they reported rumors as fact and why they bungled the reporting so badly.
Posted by: memomachine at August 06, 2007 10:00 AM (3pvQO)
56
ADMINED OUT!?!?!?!?!
Write that Effer back and say at least a special, anyone familiar can come up with count after count against him under the UCMJ, and he rates AT least a special and a BCD.
I was summaried based on innuendo (and two relatively minor, and resoundingly stupid (on my part) actions)during PEACETIME!
This guy buy acts and words has insulted all branches of the uniformed services, and this is a major PR coup. USE IT, and hit the guy as he should be hit, he defamed everyone who ever wore the uniform and it looks like he might get off with an NJP and a friggen ADMIN!?!?!?
AN OTH still rotates to an honorable after the completion of his 4 years of IRR!
NO FRIGGEN WAY! this guy rates that, hammer him, hammer him hard. If 6 guys can be CM'd and BCD'd out for not taking a friggen vaccine, you can bet your ass this guy rates worse.
Posted by: Wickedpinto at August 06, 2007 09:39 PM (QTv8u)
57
I have to disagree with the vast majority here. I have 17 years in the Army, OIF IV veteran, and I can tell you this crap does happen. The Army also desimates information to it's advantage (e.g. Lynch, Tillman, etc.). There is a VERY strong possibility there is a partial truth to what this kid claimed. I saw much, much, worse than this kid claimed in a few paragraphs to TNR. The bottom line is that when you enter a war on a false premise, you are likely to morally bankrupt and destructive Soldiers in the lime light. People aren't stupid, Soldiers aren't stupid - ethics and morals can quickly deteriorate - especially at the lower levels.
Leadership in the Army is based on those fundementals of 'TOP - DOWN'. This kid is at the bottom, if you want someone to blame don't blame TNR for reporting it or this kid for writing it - Blame Dubya and Uncle Dick for getting us in to it.
Posted by: September at August 07, 2007 11:48 PM (pelsA)
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Breaking: Kuwait-Based Army PAO Calls Beauchamp/New Republic Claim an "Urban Legend or Myth"
I've been silent on the New Republic's latest attempt to explain their editorial dereliction of editorial duties in the Scott Thomas Beauchamp collection of stories know as "Shock Troops" when those latest explanations surfaced yesterday, but that doesn't mean I've been disinterested.
Instead, I've been trying to run down some of the claims
TNR has made by contacting experts for on-the-record discussions of Beauchamp's allegations... a level of transparency that Franklin Foer and
The New Republic doesn't seem to want to provide.
One of the revisions to the Beauchamp story was the new claim that Beauchamp's verbal assault of a badly-burned female contractor for wounds he claimed were caused by an IED happened not in Forward Operating Base (FOB) Falcon in Iraq after Beauchamp's psyche had been scarred by the horrors of war, but instead occurred in Camp Buehring, Kuwait,
before Alpha Company, 1/18 Infantry, Second Brigade Combat Team, First Infantry Division had even deployed into combat.
This, of course, completely undermines the narrative Beauchamp was seeking to establish, and that Franklin Foer claimed to have fact-checked.
But beyond those tiny inaccuracies--you know, that the incident happened in the wrong country, and
before he experienced the horrors of war, and not after--we are left to ask the obvious question: did Foer put any effort into checking to see if this new claim was any more accurate than Beauchamp's previous one?
I did.
This morning, I contact Major Renee D. Russo, Third Army USARCENT PAO in Kuwait, to ask her if she knew of "a female civilian contractor at Camp Buehring with severe facial burns, and if so, when" she was there.
Here is her emailed response, in full.
Mr. Owens,
We have received other media queries on the alleged incident, but have
not been able to find anyone to back it up. There is not a police
report or complaint filed on this incident during that timeframe. Right now it is considered to be a Urban Legend or Myth.
I am still researching the incident and will have to get back with you
later with any new developments.
As it stands now, the U.S. Army in Kuwait, like the U.S. Army in Iraq, is casting strong doubts on the veracity of Beauchamp's claims, stating that to the best they can determine at this time, the female contractor Beauchamp claims to have abused is either part of an "urban legend or myth."
I've also attempting to get verification form a total of five PAOs in Kuwait to see if they have any record of Franklin Foer or any other reporter or editor from
The New Republic attempting to contact them prior to publishing the revised Camp Buehring claim to see if TNR made a good faith effort to verify that a contractor matching this woman's description was based in U.S. military bases in Kuwait.
Update: Both
Bryan at
Hot Air and
Ace link to a post by Matt Sanchez
from FOB Falcon, claiming that the military investigation into Beauchamp's stories was completed August 1, and that his claims have been:
"...refuted by members of his platoon and proven to be false."
That quote comes from Sergeant First Class Robert Timmons, the acting public affairs official of the 4th IBCT, 1st ID.
I'll post any documentation as it becomes available.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
09:40 AM
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1
First off, I hate what Beauchamp has written, for the reasons if why and what. His actions have smeared the whole of the military by painting them with a broad brush. His words were was further used by TNR as a tool for their own agenda I sincerely hope that he gets his due.
"...has concluded that the allegation made by..." Which allegation was determined to be false? I know of 4 or 5 horrendous ones. What of the others? The burned soldier reference seems to have been in Kuwait instead of the FOB. Is that what rendered it false? Don't get me wrong, I want him to be held accountable for his words/actions. If he did these things he should be held to account, if he lied he should as well.
I am interested in truth. I hate parsing of words. The notation in the column above would lead a casual reader to believe that all of his allegations have been proven false. We are led to believe they never happened, and that Beauchamp is a complete liar. But in truth, it only says one is false.
Just a thought.
My bad if indeed all have been proven false. In fact,I hope for that case. I just read the "plural/singular issue" post at Matt Sanchez' blog and it makes sense. Can this be clarified?
Just so that no one misunderstands me. I am a supporter of the military, this war and the war on the islamofascists. It is those animals that we are fighting in Iraq and around the world. I believe that he Beauchamp enlisted to,(in his own words paraphrased from his blog) get "cred" as a soldier to become a writer. A despicable reason to join the armed services - to later push yourself up, by discrediting them.
Posted by: Artista at August 03, 2007 10:48 AM (HN19C)
2
Hmmmm.
Ok I have even *less* faith in this "fact-checking" than before. If there are soldiers who are saying this Beauchamp crap is true then they need to step on up and identify themselves.
This anonymous crap is not acceptable at any level. And considering the US Army is investigating this any idea that being anonymous at this point has any value is ridiculous.
TNR has zero credibility to rely on anonymous sources *or* anonymous "experts" or "witnesses".
Posted by: memomachine at August 03, 2007 11:07 AM (3pvQO)
3
Well, I'd like a slightly different question answered about the disfigured woman story. Beauchamp says in his story that the woman's injuries came from an IED attack. There is nothing in his story which gives us any indication of how he came to "know" that this is where her injuries came from. Is his story that somebody told him that was where her injuries were from? Is his story that he simply assumed that was where her injuries were from?
Maybe it's not significant, but Maj. Russo's reply establishes that there is no complaint from a victim that approximately matches Beauchamp's story. It doesn't address the question of whether there is/was a female on the base with facial burn scarring. Because I expect the next "minor correction" to the story is that the woman contractor was burned decades ago in some accident completely unrelated to the war, and that Beauchamp and buddy ridiculed her in private.
Posted by: cathyf at August 03, 2007 11:08 AM (R3XcU)
4
What a disgrace to that uniform he is.
Good work on the PAO contacts.
Posted by: 21 Bravo at August 03, 2007 11:26 AM (/ticI)
5
When can we start calling for mass firings at TNR?!?!?!
Posted by: T.Ferg at August 03, 2007 11:30 AM (2YVh7)
6
Okay, so now people who wear the new helmet say there is no way to get another skull while one's own skull is still attatched. Someone could check that fairly easily, we lnow how thick skull bone is, someone with one of the new helmets can soften some plastic, shape it into a "skullcap" and put it, and the helmet on. With pictures.
We know that this alleged woman is, according to Beauchamp, still serving. Aside from him not knowing if she is military or contracter, I guess at this one base in the entire world they cut off those little tags saying "US Army", "US Air Force", etc, one of the whole points of the story is that no one said anything to stop it.
My service was of a different generation but I cannot imagine a "crowded dining facility" with not one person over the rank of E-4. Had I tried that trick back in 1964 as an E-2 I would STILL be dragging those cut down 55 gallon drums out of the latrines , pouring diesel fuel in and lighting it and stirring with a stick.
His own words call the lie.
Posted by: Peter at August 03, 2007 11:31 AM (M7kiy)
7
I was stationed in Kuwait in 2004. To my knowledge, the only base that had contractors running security gates and checkpoints was Camp Arifjan. Other posts like Camp Doha, Spearhead(SPOD), Liberty(KNB), and Buehring all had MPs or National Guard units running security. Those are the only security contractors that would typically wear a uniform of some sort. Unless she was a mechanic and was wearing coveralls, only the security guards wore uniforms, and yes they were tan, but not recognizable.
But, you see, this too is part of the left wing Iraq narrative. Its the Shadow Army story. Thousands upon thousands of paid, murdering, mercs from outfits like Blackwater and Triple Canopy. There's so many of them, we can't even recognize their uniforms.
In truth, there are thousands of contractors in Iraq, and most of them are in logistics, not security. Hell, most of the 'contractors' are TCNs who do work in the Chow Halls and suck out the porta potties.
Posted by: BohicaTwentyTwo at August 03, 2007 12:59 PM (/N9ci)
8
Mr. Beauchamp is like the Jihadists trying to get to heaven, his heaven is working for a slanderous rag like "The New Republic." After the smears and laughter that they have received by their peers for printing the lies of Mr. Beauchamp, his chance of working for the magazine is nil. Another John Kerry trying to ride to fame on the backs of heros.
Posted by: ron nord at August 03, 2007 01:02 PM (etV0S)
9
When can we start calling for mass firings at TNR?!?!?!
Posted by: T.Ferg at August 3, 2007 11:30 AM
They already fired a source for a milblogger on the story.
I would think that STB's wife needs to get her resume up to date as the next most likely target.
As far as the rest, downsizing will take care of that till the offices are empty.
Posted by: YardBird at August 03, 2007 01:33 PM (1aM/I)
10
Hmmm.
Something really bothers me about this explanation on how to run over dogs with a Bradley.
1. I've never driven a Bradley but I did drive a lot of armored cars during my time in the USMC and quite frankly I cannot understand this explanation about how to kill dogs with a Bradley. It doesn't make any sense to me at all and that's because in order for this explanation to work it requires the Bradly, a *tracked* vehicle, to **slide** on the pavement. If you're driving down a road and turn left, then you're going *left* so the rear end isn't going to menace anybody or anything because you're now heading away from it. The only way you could menace anybody is if you were turned left but sliding forward so that the rear end could possibly clip someone. But it's not that easy to make a tracked vehicle slide because they're very heavy.
Frankly it sounds like someone taking their experience driving a *car* and trying to pass that off as their personal experience driving an APC. Either that or Foer is lying out of his ass.
Plus the hard right necessary to run over a dog, supposedly now in the road, would require an extreme maneuver that's extremely dangerous in an APC because they have a fairly high center of gravity and would likely roll over. Particularly the Bradley because it's about 11' to 14' high, depending on the position of the TOW launcher. On top of that you have the situation
So let's say there's a dog on the right hand side of the road that I want to run over. I drive up and maintain speed, which has to be low or else the violent maneuvers will roll the APC. Then I turn left 30 degrees and ... what? The Bradley slides forward? At low speed?
Then assuming the dog has moved onto some portion of the road then I'd have to swing back to the right at least 30 degrees or more. Excuse me but if the Bradley slid forward because I turned a hard left then wouldn't the Bradley slid forward if I turn a hard right? And since time has elapsed since I first turned hard left *and* because I need to regain traction in order to actually turn hard right again doesn't that mean that I'm now *no longer on the right hand side of the road but have instead traveled to the left hand side and traveled forward as well*?
I'm trying to be charitable about this but this is nonsense. Putting aside concerns about rolling the vehicle, which is frankly extremely dangerous when dealing with armored vehicles, there is also the negative impact on the turret gunner providing security and the passengers who are being thrown around along with the necessary gear like ammo.
Now perhaps I could do this with a wheeled APC because I have made them slide a little bit when going around corners but that's *not* something that drivers want to do because it means that you have temporarily lost control over your vehicle.
And if someone's got a RPG pointed at you when you're screwing around like this then you're pretty much dead. So I'm still not buying it.
I'm going to see if I can find out the email address of the civilian contractors working on the Reflex program of rebuilding Bradleys and ask them. These guys have to test drive every vehicle that leaves their depot so they all have thousands of hours of driving time in all conditions. So if anybody knows, it's them.
Posted by: memomachine at August 03, 2007 01:47 PM (3pvQO)
11
If there are soldiers who are saying this Beauchamp crap is true then they need to step on up and identify themselves.
And collect a grand from me if they do. Not even a nibble on my offer so far...and its been out there for going on two weeks.
Posted by: Purple Avenger at August 03, 2007 02:09 PM (0d45V)
12
Sanchez updated to say "all" allegations were disproven.
Posted by: laddy at August 03, 2007 02:36 PM (SpX+n)
13
Look, I drove a BFV for 2 years while in the army, and I have logged over 3,000 hours driving time. I do not care what some anonymous contractor confirmed for TNR; it is a load of B**L S**T! The driver's blind spot to the right side of the BFV is absolutely ominous; consequently, this forces any maneuver to the right beyond a gradual turn to be aided by the TC's guidance. Furthermore, the ability to slide the rear of a "speeding BFV" to the right and then jerk it back to the left would be difficult to do; even with pivot steer and a wet surface, it would be exceedingly difficult to complete the maneuver without throwing track or jeopardizing the integrity of the vehicle. It becomes even more ludicrous to claim that this type of maneuvering took place in the much dryer climate of Iraq were the potential to throw track is greater than on a wet hardball. Just a little advice on how to take the TNR's explanation for the BFV-dog anecdote.
Posted by: Lousy-ana-Texan at August 03, 2007 04:38 PM (E14Rc)
14
Bob,
Thanks for doing the legwork on this and making the necessary phone calls. It's not right that this story got to this point without those calls being made.
Posted by: Mark Eichenlaub at August 03, 2007 06:21 PM (W4zkU)
15
Lousy - I used to drive M-113s, but have never driven a Bradley. Question: Can a Bradley pivot-turn in place? I suppose this would have the effect of swinging the rear of the vehicle around if it was absolutely rotating without moving forward or back. You would then have to reverse the turn, to hit the dog, driving into you blind spot. This action would likely result in the TC doing a "Superman", no?
Posted by: holdfast at August 03, 2007 07:58 PM (Gzb30)
16
holdfast: Even that maneuver doesn't take into accout the dog. Because it won't just stand there waiting to be hit. The closest I can come to B's description is that a dog came running out of an alley and got hit by mistake.
Posted by: Rhoda at August 03, 2007 10:20 PM (wt4ak)
17
Hmm...
Where are Doc, gil in this thread? Curious.
Posted by: y7 at August 04, 2007 12:43 AM (Cixed)
18
I too drove 113's in the military, and occasionally now, I run tracked equipment such as 277 cat loaders. I cannot see how someone would be able to execute what beauchump describes. I can believe someone who wacks walls curbs etc for sport. guys like that are easy to spot too because the squad riding in backgives them an intro to the blanket party to express their love of the fun ride.
Posted by: Jeremy at August 04, 2007 04:14 PM (V1oVR)
19
This guy is sooooooooooo full of CRAP! I'm currently ON Arifjan and I've been to Beuring and all point in between. Beauchamp has managed to do only a few things with this fairy tale telling:
1) Make the Army look bad and soldiers in general, esp. since the moonbats out there are going to claim NO MATTER WHAT that he's telling the truth... (just like that scumbag Jessie Dirksing or whatever the hell his name was telling all them fantasy crap) and
2) Painted a VERY large bullseye on his back. I'd say that his fellow Soldiers in 1/18 aren't going to be very helpful if he's ever in a tight spot.... Live rounds and traitorous lying douchebags don't stand a chance in a free fire zone. My guess is that the chain of command will have him out of Theater for his own safety faster than he can make up more BS... which when you think about it, might have been his intent all along...
Posted by: Logistics-R-Us at August 04, 2007 08:34 PM (q7b5Y)
20
Rene Russo is in the army? I guess that acting gig isn't working out for her.
Posted by: Christopher Taylor at August 05, 2007 10:46 PM (wmgz8)
21
Hmmmm.
@ Lousy-ana-Texan
"Just a little advice on how to take the TNR's explanation for the BFV-dog anecdote."
Absolutely agreed.
I put in a lot of hours driving APCs in the Marines, usually LAVs and Dragoons, and couldn't imagine doing the maneuver as described. And those were wheeled APCs let alone a tracked one.
And yes any such maneuver would toss any passengers around very painfully and make the topside machinegunner really pissed off. APCs can be dangerous to drive or ride even when not doing wild maneuvers. I've seen APCs flip over backwards because they were trying to drive up too steep an incline or because the ground was far too saturated with water. I've seen APCs flip over in an aerial corkscrew, throwing out the topside machinegunner, before pancaking on the asphalt.
Taking unnecessary risks to try and run over a dog, and being allowed to do so by the vehicle commander and troops riding passenger, just boggles the mind.
And that's if there's any hope of validity in this nonsensical allegation, which I don't believe there is.
Posted by: memomachine at August 06, 2007 09:58 AM (3pvQO)
22
Not true; not very believable; not unique to war (that there are jerks in any organization); not informative; not supportive of the military; not enlightening. So what was the purpose for publishing these stories? Oh yeah; it's agenda,stupid.
Posted by: mbabbitt at August 08, 2007 10:02 AM (p/jtE)
23
The facts are that anyone, military or civilian, that had been injured / burned that badly would not have been allowed to remain in country, they would have been transported to the US or possibly Europe as soon as they could be stabilized. There are several reasons for this, primarily because the medical faculities are far more advanced, also you do not want to expose you combat troops to this type of sitituation, sad to say but it affects morale.I learned long ago that soldiers seldom make good authors, It is just not something that we are trained to do.
Posted by: Will at August 08, 2007 06:27 PM (rCC5A)
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August 02, 2007
Vacation destination: Iraq / FOB Falcon
During discussions and posting covering the Scott Thomas Beauchamp diaries Milblogger Laughing Wolf, posting at Blackfive, issued a challenge to Columbia Journalism Review's Paul McLeary.
Since there are some profound and troubling issues that remain, let me make an offer. This fat ol' crip is willing to take a leave of absence, or quit my day job if necessary, to take a trip to embed with the troops. As part of that journey, let's you and I go visit the unit in question, and let the people there tell you the problem with the message. Let's visit a few other milbloggers while we are at it, maybe a few other bloggers period, and see if they can help. I'm willing to put it all on the line right now, especially if the money could be raised to cover the process via PMI, and to ensure I still had a lair to which to return. How about it, are you and CJR willing to put your money where your mouth is? I'm willing to put my body and what meager funds I have on the line for this. How about you?
[emphasis mine]
Just four days after issuing the challenge Laughing Wolf has his response.
Its game on.
A few days ago, I issued a challenge to Paul McLeary and CJR, and Paul has accepted that challenge. As he notes here and in the e-mail exchanges, he stepped in it, which is something with which I think we can all empathize. Our discussions have been interesting, thoughtful, and fruitful.
The result is that we are working together with PMI to go to Iraq and FOB Falcon. Our mutual goal is to go see the reality on the ground, find out what the troops think on the issue of Bleu Beau, blogs, blogging, and a number of other subjects.
In addition to what is done with Paul, I am looking to embed with a Marine unit while there after our time at FOB Falcon.
We do not yet know how much, if any, support will come from CJR. Therefore, we are looking for funding, and I am looking for your help to send me to Iraq. More than that, I see this as an opportunity to try and make it easier for the next trip by getting some additional resources to PMI.
As
he said, Laughing Wolf's vacation to the Middle East isn't going to be a cheap trip. LW is going about it the right way in that he's not only trying to fund his trip, but by building up the resources / equipment available to
PMI he's hoping to make it easier for other bloggers to embed.
So please, give what you can.
Donations though PMI (tax deductible) can be
made here. Just be sure to note they are
For LW Embed.
Donations to help offset his personal costs, really it isn't going to be cheap, can also be made on
Laughing Wolf's personal site (on the right sidebar, both paypal and amazon).
On a personal note, I'm honored to count LW as one of the few friends I've made through blogging and can't adequately put into words how proud I am of him.
Posted by: phin at
08:56 PM
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Wrong City, Wrong Province: No Problem
The police station was in Hibhib.
Hibhib is not Baghdad. Baquba (or Baqouba) , the next-closest large city, is also is not Baghdad. Both are in Diyala Province, more than 30 miles north-northeast of Baghdad.
So how, precisely, is this a Baghdad police station?
Those multiple layers of fact checkers strike again...
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
02:21 PM
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1
Hibhib is 30 miles from the center of Baghdad. At least they got the "homicide bomber" part right.
Posted by: Bill Smith at August 02, 2007 02:39 PM (DvkLe)
2
But they got the information from Jamil Hussein, so it must be right.
Posted by: Don Surber at August 02, 2007 03:25 PM (YkgNr)
3
Go blogs! MSM has nothing on us! Except for satellite uplinks and helicopter coverage... But besides that, blogs rule!
Posted by: Yishai at August 02, 2007 03:52 PM (a2XWG)
4
Um . . . you're aware that headline would have been written by Fox News and not the Associated Press, right?
You may have proved something here, but it's not what you intended....
Posted by: rusty t. at August 02, 2007 03:54 PM (qDnDT)
5
The AP and Foxnews.com are left biased cesspools.
Posted by: ME at August 02, 2007 04:05 PM (gkobM)
6
What, you mean you can't see Hibhib from the Al Rashid Hotel?
Posted by: Dusty at August 02, 2007 05:49 PM (GJLeQ)
7
Hey, if you think that's bad, Scott Thomas Beauchamp got the whole country wrong!
Posted by: Pablo at August 03, 2007 02:04 AM (yTndK)
8
I doubt if Blowchimp gets the spelling of his own name right more than once every ten tries or so ...
Posted by: Brian H at August 03, 2007 07:50 AM (n836S)
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The Profit of Jihad
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
10:39 AM
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1
If he's not dead, he definitely needs some extra fiber in his diet.
Posted by: Purple Avenger at August 02, 2007 01:49 PM (0d45V)
2
May he quickly receive his just reward.
Posted by: T.Ferg at August 02, 2007 01:50 PM (2YVh7)
3
Another one bites the dust. I wonder if this al Qaeda emir is also another one of Saddam's former henchmen, as so many others have shown to be...
http://regimeofterror.com/archives/2007/07/hundreds_of_loyalists_and_bene/
Posted by: Mark Eichenlaub at August 02, 2007 08:04 PM (W4zkU)
4
I heard Barak Obama,single-handedly ,"took him out" in Pakistan.
Posted by: JihadGene at August 02, 2007 08:23 PM (l8Hl5)
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August 01, 2007
Prayers for Minneapolis
As you are no doubt well aware of by now, the I35W bridge spanning the Mississippi River in Minneapolis collapsed during rush our this evening.
Dozens of vehicles have fallen into the river or the ground below; others have been crushed by the falling span. As I write this, authorities are stating that they can confirm seven people have died, that more than 30 are injured, and that 20 people or more are thought to be missing.
My heart goes out to those who have loved ones involved in this disaster, and I ask those readers who are religious to please consider saying prayers for those involved in this disaster, their families, the first responders, and attending medical personnel.
Update: James Lileks is
continuing to update the story.
Worth noting are the stories of the heroism of ordinary people amid the disaster, as many people nearby and on the bridge rushed to aid others.
From Lileks at 10:21 PM:
I’m listening to a story on the news about a man who survived the fall – then ran to help the kids on the bus. I’d guess the fellow never considered what he might do in such a situation. Never thought about it much. Who would? But then you find yourself on a bridge that’s crashed down into the Mississippi, and you’re struggling with the seat belt buckle. It works , but your hands feel thick. You’re alive – which doesn’t seem that odd, really, you’ve always been alive, so this is just different, but you have strange thoughts about insurance and a mad swirl of panic and there’s blood in your hair but you can stand – and then you see a school bus. So you go to the bus. Of course you go the bus.
Most of us would. It’s a remarkable instinct that wells up and kicks in, and it’s something you never expected to experience. As someone said about humans: We’re at our best when things are worst.
Would you have run to the bus? I'll answer for you: yes.
And from what I'm hearing, many did exactly that.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
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Poorly-Formed Ideas
Democrat Presidential candidate Barack Obama seems to have, as my father might put it, "engaged his mouth before putting his mind in gear."
Democratic presidential candidate Barack Obama said Wednesday that he would possibly send troops into Pakistan to hunt down terrorists, an attempt to show strength when his chief rival has described his foreign policy skills as naive.
The Illinois senator warned Pakistani President Gen. Pervez Musharraf that he must do more to shut down terrorist operations in his country and evict foreign fighters under an Obama presidency, or Pakistan will risk a U.S. troop invasion and losing hundreds of millions of dollars in U.S. military aid.
"Let me make this clear," Obama said in a speech prepared for delivery at the Woodrow Wilson International Center for Scholars. "There are terrorists holed up in those mountains who murdered 3,000 Americans. They are plotting to strike again. It was a terrible mistake to fail to act when we had a chance to take out an al-Qaida leadership meeting in 2005. If we have actionable intelligence about high-value terrorist targets and President Musharraf won't act, we will."
CNN provides us with
this:
According to excerpts from the speech released by his campaign, Obama, D-Illinois, will say: "When I am President, we will wage the war that has to be won, with a comprehensive strategy with five elements: getting out of Iraq and on the right battlefield in Afghanistan and Pakistan; developing the capabilities and partnerships we need to take out the terrorists and the world's most deadly weapons; engaging the world to dry up support for terror and extremism; restoring our values; and securing a more resilient homeland."
Let us presume for the sake of argument that Obama is elected President, and as Commander in Chief, feels he has no choice but to invade Pakistan.
In his mind, what constitutes an "invasion?"
Does Mr. Obama mean periodic cross-border air raids by UAVs, attack aircraft, and special forces soldiers when intelligence assets identify specific targets, or does he mean what most of us would take way from these articles, which is a larger, full-spectrum invasion by land, air, and perhaps even naval forces?
What part of Pakistan would he invade?
Would he invade only the Taliban-controlled tribal areas of North and South Warizistan where we have seen most of the terrorist-related activities, or would he advocate a wider invasion of the Islamic nuclear state?
If a President Obama felt that an invasion of Pakistan was warranted, would he take preemptive steps to dismantle or destroy the Pakistani nuclear arsenal to prevent these munitions from possibly being used against American forces? He seems to suggest this when he states "we need to take out the terrorists and the world's most deadly weapons."
Does he realize that if he take such a step he would be attacking official Pakistani military bases and likely kill Pakistani soldiers, airmen, and other personnel that
are not terrorists, forcing Pakistan directly into war with the United States?
Should efforts to destroy the Pakistani nuclear arsenal fall short of success, what are his contingencies? How would he keep any surviving Pakistani nuclear weapons from being used against invading U.S. soldiers. Does Obama realize that he would be responsible no only for any U.S. military losses, but for thousands of more lives in the region affected by the blast and its residual fallout effects?
This stance also brings up other issues.
If he truly believes that risking an assault on a nuclear state to suppress terrorism if diplomacy doesn't work is a viable option, why doesn't he join Senator Leiberman in saying that we must use all of our resources, including military force, against Iran, an aspiring nuclear country with a clear track record of the state sponsorship of terrorism throughout the region? Put bluntly, how could his policies be said to have any consistency if he advocates invading one state (Pakistan) for allowing terrorism, while failing to address another state (Iran) for directly supporting it throughout the region?
And how does he square his stated approaches to Iran and Pakistan with his advocating a withdrawal from Iraq, where we are already engaged with Islamic extremists who wish to create precisely the same kind of state that he says he would invade?
For quite some time--and due in no small part to the apparent lack of other strong primary candidates--I'd been rather confident that the 2008 Democrat Presidential ticket would be some combination of Hillary and Obama.
This frankly daft mash-up of contradictory foreign policy positions seems to indicate that the freshman senator from Illinois simply isn't ready for higher office, and very well may give John Edwards a fighting chance of getting on the ticket... then again,
maybe not.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
10:29 AM
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1
Now that's a chickenhawk statement if I ever heard one!
Posted by: DirtCrashr at August 01, 2007 10:47 AM (VNM5w)
2
Obama never used the word invade. He simply said he would have let the targeted operation go forward that Bush aborted.
Posted by: You Need to Read at August 01, 2007 10:47 AM (Kgj5a)
3
First, there is a world of difference between a targeted strike and an invasion. Second, you really are being uncreative and knee-jerk in your response. This is obviously an implicit attack on the Clintons, as the Clintons refused to take out Osama by missile when they had him in their crosshairs because Sandy Berger suspected they lacked proper authorization. Playing up the invasion spin just misses the point.
Posted by: Clintons flubbed too at August 01, 2007 10:57 AM (Kgj5a)
4
Obama would flee Iraq and invade Pakistan. What a fool. Americans should learn lessons from their military failures in Iraq and Afghanistan.
Posted by: Aamir Ali at August 01, 2007 11:30 AM (HXWqi)
5
You Need To Read, I'm not one for fully trusting anything the AP reports, but, that aside, they do have something from Obama in quotes:
"... It was a terrible mistake to fail to act when we had a chance to take out an al-Qaida leadership meeting in 2005. If we have actionable intelligence about high-value terrorist targets and President Musharraf won't act, we will."
Obama may have implied what you say he said, but he certainly didn't say what you assert he did. Now maybe you have a transcript; please provide it, then.
As for your assertion that Obama never used the word "invade", CY used the word "invasion" which AP also uses in a summary of a specific portion of his speech:
"The Illinois senator warned Pakistani President Gen. Pervez Musharraf that he must do more to shut down terrorist operations in his country and evict foreign fighters under an Obama presidency, or Pakistan will risk a U.S. troop invasion and losing hundreds of millions of dollars in U.S. military aid."
You need to read again and again until you see it.
As I said, the AP is notorious for getting things wrong, so I did check Obama's Campaign website. Guess what? He didn't actually say what I excerpted from the AP story. Not even close.
So, CY is right in questioning Obama about this if the AP is right. AP might be still be right if it was in the excerpts that Obama provided to AP before the speech, and AP publishing it should be necessary. I'd suggest reading the actual transcript of his speech (or watching the video) but that doesn't guarantee that it is not in what was provided to AP, so again the AP should release the press release they received.
Posted by: Dusty at August 01, 2007 11:42 AM (GJLeQ)
6
Its pretty clear to me AP is trying to tank Obama...which is unnecessary actually, since he's fully capable of tanking himself without their "help"
Posted by: Purple Avenger at August 01, 2007 12:22 PM (0d45V)
7
With the caveat that what Obama sent AP might still have been reported accurately by AP, I would tend to agree with you Purple. There hundreds of examples where AP could just report what was said by someone. They prefer, instead, to flavor it with how the reporter "heard" it.
That AP is pretty much a population that tends to "hear" things the same thing every time, all the time, I have great doubts that AP is accurate in reporting on anything at all that doesn't have quotes around it and still quite skeptical of any that do.
Posted by: Dusty at August 01, 2007 01:15 PM (GJLeQ)
8
More grist for the mill:
In a strikingly bold speech about terrorism scheduled for this morning, Democratic presidential candidate Illinois Sen. Barack Obama will call not only for a withdrawal of U.S. troops from Iraq, but a redeployment of troops into Afghanistan and even Pakistan — with or without the permission of Pakistan President Pervez Musharraf.
The last I checked, the redeployment of troops to a foreign nation, without the blessing of that nation's government, is an invasion.
Reuters, NDTV (India), Guardian (U.K) and other outlets around the globe also recognize this basic bit of fact, that when you send your soldiers into another nation uninvited, it is an invasion.
Quite frankly, whether he used the word invasion is irrelevant.
He either meant he would invade--as the world's media seems to have interpreted his if they "...won't act, we will" comment--or he's incompetent in discussing foreign policy, perhaps proving Hillary correct (and yes, it pains me to utter that phrase).
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at August 01, 2007 02:31 PM (0BhZ5)
9
"The last I checked, the redeployment of troops to a foreign nation, without the blessing of that nation's government, is an invasion."
LOL. So true.
Posted by: Dusty at August 01, 2007 03:40 PM (GJLeQ)
10
Of course, if we bombed the 2005 "leadership meeting" (like we did in 2006, with poor results) and killed a bunch of civilians w/no leadership, Obama would be complaining about how we are creating more terrorists and we need diplomacy and a smarter war on terror and bla bla lie bla lie fraud bla
Posted by: TMF at August 01, 2007 04:42 PM (+BgNZ)
11
Since he was a supporter of the Webb Amendment which would require all those troops being pulled out of Iraq to stay home for an extended period of time I think it is a fair question to ask where he would get the forces for the invasion.
Posted by: Merv Benson at August 01, 2007 04:45 PM (Cvhrl)
12
Since when has any recent conservative been so concerned about technically invading a foreign country with a real plan?
Posted by: John Bryan at August 01, 2007 08:00 PM (yGOyP)
13
Obama desperately needs to look at a topographical map of Afghanistan. He's sounding like a fool. All those armor units we have in Iraq are just targets in Afghanistan.
Posted by: Purple Avenger at August 01, 2007 09:00 PM (0d45V)
14
This is good news for all the 'hawks' on the left that keep on saying we're fighting the wrong war in Iraq. I guess they will all enlist after Obama gets elected, pulls the troops out of Iraq and puts them all in Afghanistan and Pakistan. Unless, of course, they are chicken.
Posted by: BohicaTwentyTwo at August 02, 2007 02:04 AM (oC8nQ)
15
Hmmm.
@ Jon Bryan
"Since when has any recent conservative been so concerned about technically invading a foreign country with a real plan?"
That was a **real plan**?
Let's review it shall we?
1. If good intel on presence of AQ leaders
2. Then send in troops.
That's a **real plan**?
I'd suggest that perhaps, just perhaps, your personal threshold for the phrase "real plan" needs to be raised just a tad.
Posted by: memomachine at August 02, 2007 09:36 AM (3pvQO)
16
Hmmmm.
@
"Obama desperately needs to look at a topographical map of Afghanistan."
In more ways than one.
Afghanistan is completely landlocked and supplying forces there is a serious issue. And that's considering that the number of forces involved is much smaller than in Iraq.
From Beans to Bullets, Joint Forces
Command Keeps Supplies Moving
The problem with the use of troops in Afghanistan has always been a logistical one. Which is why we used small units of Special Forces combined with local warlords and rebels to overthrow the Taliban. People like to scream about Tora Bora but the reality is that deploying 20,000 American soldiers into the highland mountain regions of Afghanistan would entail tens of thousands, or hundreds of thousands, of tons of supplies. And all of which would have to have been transported and delivered entirely by air transport because in many cases there aren't any roads. And this same dynamic will make operations very difficult in the western part of Pakistan. And that's assuming the Paks won't mind our incursions.
The biggest strength of the modern American military has been it's training, morale and firepower, with an accent on the firepower. But that firepower comes at a significant cost in logistics because it requires enormous amounts of munitions and ammunition all of which will require transportation. And Afghanistan, particularly eastern Afghanistan/western Pakistan, is literally the ass-end of the world where transporting even so much as a candy bar is a time-consuming, expensive and laborious process.
Perhaps Obama could get away with specifically targeted raids by Special Forces, which quite frankly is probably happening now, but any significant number of troops inserted into western Pakistan is going to entail a huge logistical load that will be very vulnerable.
I think the last thing anybody wants is an American version of Paulus's 6th Army at Stalingrad or the French at Dien Bien Phu.
Posted by: memomachine at August 02, 2007 09:54 AM (3pvQO)
17
Memomachine:
The other funny thing is where the logistical chain that supplies the US and NATO forces in Afghanistan passes through.
Given the declining relations with Russia (undoubtedly Bush's fault), that makes the 'stans a lot less reliable. I'd guess that we're not running supplies through Iran anytime soon.
So, who has transport connections into Afghanistan?
Any bets on how safe they'll be, once airstrikes, SOF and cruise missiles are going off all over the country?
And if you're outta logistics, you're outta Schlitz.
Brilliant!
Posted by: Lurking Observer at August 02, 2007 11:23 AM (/ZD7V)
18
Obamas a dill hole.
Pull out of Iraq and hand the place over to Al Qaida, genius. Pull out and give the Baathists a chance to regain control and atart making WMD again, genius. Pull out of Iraq and give nuclear armed, pro terrorist, anti American armed Iran a chance to take over, genius.
The sharp tools of the left seem to think that peasants in the mountains of South Afghanistan are the only targets in the GWOT when it was Saudi Sunnis who learned to fly planes in the US who did 9/11.
Posted by: ME at August 02, 2007 11:28 AM (gkobM)
19
Hmmmm.
@ Lurking Observer
*shrug* logistics has always been the Achilles Heel of military operations in that area. If it were easy then those warlords would be so much buzzard bait long ago.
The biggest problem is providing rear-echelon security for the logistical troops. In Iraq the logistical trains are generally kept as short as possible. But in major offensive operations in eastern Afghanistan those chains are going to be pretty long and routed through some desolate terrain. Perfect for raiders.
It's really how the Afghans/Pushtuns have beaten armies in the past. Allow enemy forces to penetrate deeply into the mountainous terrain so the supply chain lengthens to the breaking point and then break that chain. After that they basically wait until the now defensive enemy runs out of ammunition and then they go in for the kill.
Could we do it? Yeah. But it would be extremely ugly, very expensive and is as close to bear-baiting as such things come. Frankly if you're going to do it then you might as well ally with India and then go all out and conquer Pakistan completely.
Don't get me wrong I'm not talking about American invading and conquering Pakistan, I'd leave that to the Army of India. But if you're going to piss off a nuclear power, particularly a nuclear Islamic power, then you aren't going to get any brownie points for going only half-way.
Posted by: memomachine at August 02, 2007 02:38 PM (3pvQO)
20
Senator Obama’s voting record on military issues can be found at: http://votesmart.org/voting_category.php?can_id=9490&type=category&category=47&go.x=7&go.y=8
Senator Obama’s ratings from special interest groups on military issues can be found at: http://votesmart.org/issue_rating_category.php?can_id=9490
Project Vote Smart produces the National Political Awareness Test (NPAT), which essentially asks each candidate “Are you willing to tell citizens your positions on the issues you will most likely face on their behalf?” You can find Senator Obama’s responses to the NPAT at: http://votesmart.org/npat.php?can_id=9490
For more information on Senator Obama’s position on military issues please visit http://www.vote-smart.org or call our hotline at 1-888-VOTE-SMART.
Posted by: Project Vote Smart at August 02, 2007 04:56 PM (Z+KDc)
21
I've been a big advocate of expanding our heavy airlift capacity for quite a while. It has been inadequate for quite a while now. Its also a dual use capability that can be shifted to civilian relief purposes when its not needed.
Posted by: Purple Avenger at August 02, 2007 07:10 PM (0d45V)
22
"I've been a big advocate of expanding our heavy airlift capacity for quite a while."
C-17s are great aircrafts, but there's a reason we're still flying the C-5. If you're flying from Langley AFB to Kuwait via Rota, Spain, I highly recommend flying on plane with a rear facing passenger deck that's older than 95% of the people flying in it. Of course, you truly will not appreciate the rear facing seats unless the auto pilot deciedes to cut out somewhere over the Atlantic, like ours did. Sigh, good times.
Posted by: BohicaTwentyTwo at August 02, 2007 10:00 PM (oC8nQ)
23
I'm not even thinking C5/C17 -- I'm thinking Bill Northrup had the right answer 70 years ago. The structural and aerodynamic advantages of the flying wing are compelling for heavy lift application.
Posted by: Purple Avenger at August 03, 2007 11:31 PM (0d45V)
24
Sadly Obama has no mind to engage.
Posted by: David at August 05, 2007 04:25 AM (Z3gBf)
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