Confederate Yankee
December 02, 2008
Sovereignty Is Not a Shield
Memeorandum is tracking the buzz on a Rabert Kagan op-ed in the Washington Post, where Kagan offers the idea of—more or less—repossessing the parts of Pakistan where terrorist groups operate and placing them under some sort of international control. The proximate cause of his screed is the multi-day assault carried out by terrorists against civilian targets in Mumbai, India that places nuclear-armed neighbors India and Pakistan on a potential course for war.
He's considered an intellectual for this.
Rather than simply begging the Indians to show restraint, a better option could be to internationalize the response. Have the international community declare that parts of Pakistan have become ungovernable and a menace to international security. Establish an international force to work with the Pakistanis to root out terrorist camps in Kashmir as well as in the tribal areas. This would have the advantage of preventing a direct military confrontation between India and Pakistan. It might also save face for the Pakistani government, since the international community would be helping the central government reestablish its authority in areas where it has lost it. But whether or not Islamabad is happy, don't the international community and the United States, at the end of the day, have some obligation to demonstrate to the Indian people that we take attacks on them as seriously as we take attacks on ourselves?
Would such an action violate Pakistan's sovereignty? Yes, but nations should not be able to claim sovereign rights when they cannot control territory from which terrorist attacks are launched. If there is such a thing as a "responsibility to protect," which justifies international intervention to prevent humanitarian catastrophe either caused or allowed by a nation's government, there must also be a responsibility to protect one's neighbors from attacks from one's own territory, even when the attacks are carried out by "non-state actors."
In Pakistan's case, the continuing complicity of the military and intelligence services with terrorist groups pretty much shreds any claim to sovereign protection. The Bush administration has tried for years to work with both the military and the civilian government, providing billions of dollars in aid and advanced weaponry. But as my Carnegie Endowment colleague Ashley Tellis has noted, the strategy hasn't shown much success. After Mumbai, it has to be judged a failure. Until now, the military and intelligence services have remained more interested in wielding influence in Afghanistan through the Taliban and fighting India in Kashmir through terrorist groups than in cracking down. Perhaps they need a further incentive -- such as the prospect of seeing parts of their country placed in an international receivership.
I agree completely with Kagan on the key point: nation-states that cannot control their territory and have effectively ceded control of large portions to terrorist groups or other "non-state actors" also cede their claims of sovereignty. If a nation-state is attacked from within terrorist-controlled territory, they have the moral right—and I would argue, prime responsibility to their citizens—to respond with crushing military force.
But his solution—"seeing parts of their country placed in an international receivership"—must surely be a joke, or the harried keystrokes of a malformed column that was expelled in grotesque stillborn form.
If the international community were serious about contributing to helping settle territories controlled by terrorists, then Afghanistan would be a nation awash in foreign soldiers on peacekeeping duties and aid workers lavishing the bounty of developed nations on the backwards and downtrodden. Of course, that has not occurred. America's military fights with a largely symbolic handful of allies, most cursed with a lack of support from their home nations and hampered by rules of engagement that preclude them of being any practical use. Aid workers are few and far between in Afghanistan and constantly at risk; infrastructure improvements that would help change ancient incubators of extremism are few and far between. Kagan's idea was debunked by years of international apathy before it was ever written.
Being an intellectual, of course, Kagan feels compelled to re-offer this vinegared vintage yet again, hoping that someone will swallow it.
The simple, pragmatic fact of the matter is that no nation wants the responsibilities of another nation's struggles, but they do have every natural right to defend themselves from attack.
What Kagan cannot bring himself to write is that his beloved international community is disinterested in raising up those fractured territories. As a result of their apathy, they condemn these territories and states to be led by rogue actors, and for those within those areas to suffer reprisals. Some will deserve to die. Some will be innocents. Such is the nature of war.
Pakistan has failed to stop non-state actors from using their territory for international terrorism against their neighbors, and has morally forfeited any claims of sovereignty over the rogue regions of their nation. Indian military forces have every moral right to engage terror bases located in eastern Pakistan, as Afghani forces and coalition allies have even moral right to engage terrorist training camps and bases in the west.
This of course, will not assuage those who claim to represent "peace." Though militant Islam has been constantly at war since 632AD, these idealists, unable to understand other cultures do not think as they do, think negotiating is an answer. The militants, quite rightly, view forcing negotiations upon a far stronger power as evidence that their militancy works.
Among the polite and demure, there simply isn't understanding that sometimes, force can only be met with an overwhelming and punishing response. History shows us that terrorism stops when terrorist groups are crushed, are fractured, or are victorious. All three of those conclusions are dictated by violence.
The question is
how much more innocent blood civilized societies will see run in their streets before the inevitable and overwhelming violent response that is required is finally deemed necessary.
Update: Ed Morrissey notes another reason to ignore Kagan's suggestion, primarily, how it would be
used against Israel.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
12:04 PM
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These cats will not be belled merely by invoking 'the international community' any more than Italy was belled by the League of Nations.
If you want it done, you got to do it.
Posted by: Mikey NTH at December 02, 2008 02:34 PM (O9Cc8)
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In answer to your question, "how much more innocent blood civilized societies will see run in their streets before the inevitable and overwhelming violent response that is required is finally deemed necessary?"
I think that your question, and a very good question at that, will be answered within the next 10-20 years. As evidenced by events in Europe over the last 3 years or so and, of course, 911 here on our own soil, the problem is no longer just "over there somewhere".
By most folks' definition of the word I am a moderately liberal Democrat and make no apologies for it. Having said that I can tell you that I truly believe that there is no such thing as negotiating our way through the problem of radical Islamic fundamentalism. Islam is being hijacked by the radicals in the same way that Christianity was in centuries past (and still attempting to be hijacked to this day by some people who call themselves Christians, even in our own country).
The only way to stop the radical elements of Islam is to crush them completely. One of the major problems that the Western Mind has is wrapping our heads around the reality that this is what happens when radical religion has too much influence on the affairs of government. In many Islamic nations religion and government are one and the same. And, in many of those nations that's how a majority of the people prefer it. In fact, some of those nations are our alleged "allies".
Christians and Muslims have been fighting each other for nearly 1400 years now. I'm a Christian. Knowing that Christianity has been perverted in many cases over the Centuries,(if we use the Bible as our standard of what it means to be a Christian, and that IS all that we have), I decided to read the Koran to see what it had to say.
I found nothing at all in that book that would make any reasonable person who believed it to be the word of God (which I certainly don't believe to be so) think that its teachings justify the actions and goals of Islamic radicals. They have simply perverted its teachings. Period.
It's going to be very ugly when the West finally deals with this problem in an effective way. The rules that modern societies play by are going to be out the window.
Can it be stopped? I think so. Do we have the stomach for it? I think only when we have no other choice will we finally deal with it, as surely we must.
God help us all! It ain't going to be pretty.
Posted by: Dude at December 02, 2008 04:29 PM (byA+E)
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Wow. This was a darn good post. Straight to the point and just flat out persuasive. Not a lot of wasted motion. At first I thought I was going to disagree, but I couldn't find anything to grab onto. Nicely done.
Posted by: brando at December 02, 2008 10:30 PM (gNIlp)
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I've been to Kashmir, and honestly I have no idea why this piece of land has caused so much fighting. If I were either Pakistan or India, I'd be begging the other side to claim it.
Posted by: Voice of Reason at December 03, 2008 03:46 AM (aIY/T)
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What exactly is 'international receivership'? I know what happens when you put a business into receivership and it is never good and the result is usually the end of the business.
The U.N. is going to lop off part of Pakistan and what, make it its own country and this will resolve the millenia old religious clashes.
And how come he is now raising the spectre of the obligation of the U.S. and the international community (apparently the U.S. is not part of it). The last time the U.S. followed this line of thinking (among others used), we invaded Iraq, which freed millions of people from an oppressive regime, but has generated strong backlash in this country and from the international community.
But this time, it would be ok, because Kagan says so. In the end, still invading a foreign country, regardless of the pretty language you use. And what are the objectives, what are the ROE?
Does anyone think the Pakistani's would accept this meekly? And they have nukes.
What is it with these intellectuals? Did he trade in his ability to reason for his degree?
Posted by: Penfold at December 03, 2008 01:37 PM (lF2Kk)
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except for the international component this is basically a recapitulation of the Bush doctrine. You harbor terrorists and your sovereignity is forfeit for whatever actions are required to kill said terrorists.
Posted by: RC at December 03, 2008 01:42 PM (wCqxr)
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He's asking for a Somalia Redux.
Only the totally insane will expect a better result.
Posted by: Neo at December 04, 2008 12:08 AM (Yozw9)
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Not satisfied with Bush's blatant violation of international law by declaring the right to "preventive war," a clear violation of the UN Charter and a policy that even Henry Kissinger said was not permissible for other nations (for obvious reasons,) Confederate Yankee wants to take it up another notch and nullify any nation's sovereignty that he deems to be not handling its terrorists to his satisfaction. The President wouldn't even have to declare another nation a threat before starting another war, he could just say they aren't being tough enough on terrorists and BAM! Permission to bomb! Don't even have to make up a story about being threatened. That's efficient.
Of course, unlike Kissinger, Yankee doesn't see how he's suggesting gutting international law and the US becoming an outlaw state. Doesn't bother you, does it, because you're scared to death of the terrorists getting you.
Do you not understand that after WWII the nations of the world realized that violating another nation's sovereignty was impermissible? And so they agreed no one is permitted to do it own their own initiative.
Do you understand? Have you no respect for the rule of law? Because the Constitution of the United States- its about the rule of law.
Irony! In the same breath, you complain about the UN! You do realize that only the Security Council can compel any country to do anything, and that the US has the veto, which it has used more than any other nation on the planet. I'm sure you don't acknowledge any connection between the veto and nothing getting done.
Posted by: smellthecoffee at December 06, 2008 11:15 PM (qMP3U)
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Makers of Crap Sandwich Now Pitching It With 10-Percent More Corn
The big three automakers are back in Washington, trying to convince Congress to give them your hard-earned money so they can keep afloat businesses based upon a business model of first-rate pay for employees churning out second-rate cars:
Detroit's automakers, making a second bid for $25 billion in government funding, are presenting Congress with plans Tuesday to restructure their ailing companies and provide assurances that the bailout will help them survive and thrive.
General Motors Corp., Ford Motor Co., and Chrysler LLC would refinance their companies' debt, cut executive pay, seek concessions from workers and find other ways of reviving their staggering companies.
U.S. automakers are struggling to stay afloat heading into 2009 under the weight of an economic meltdown, the worst auto sales in decades and a tight credit market. General Motors, Ford and Chrysler went through nearly $18 billion in cash reserves during the last quarter, and GM and Chrysler have said they could collapse in weeks.
Top executives from the Big Three failed last month to convince a skeptical Congress that they were worthy of $25 billion in loans. House Speaker Nancy Pelosi and Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid ordered them to outline major changes, including the elimination of lavish executive pay packages and assurances that taxpayers would be reimbursed for the loans.
All three companies are filing separate plans. Congressional hearings are planned for Thursday and Friday.
Let. Them. Fail.
We bailed out banks that gave credit to illegal aliens (Thanks Citibank!) and mortgages to morons that couldn't pay the minimums on their credit cards, and now babies are coming out of the womb owing money because Congress doesn't have the spine to tell these banks the honest truth that
they deserve to fail for bad decision-making fueled by greed.
Likewise, the Big Three deserve to fail for their unsustainable business models of first-tier pay and benefits for often second-tier products. Let them file for bankruptcy, and hopefully learn a lesson in the process. If not, the lines of companies that feel they are "vital" and "too important to fail" will continue to grow.
Let. Them. Fail.
Call your Congressman. Call Your Senator. They'll keep taking your money until you scream, so tell them enough is enough
now.
It's the only way to make these leeches stop.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
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Move to China, dump the unions, concentrate on designing and building better cars. Be successful.
Posted by: bill-tb at December 02, 2008 08:48 AM (7evkT)
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I couldn't agree more. In fact, bankruptcy and subsequent restructuring may very well be the ONLY way to save the Big Three. Bankruptcy doesn't necessarily mean that they'll go out of business. I think it's their only chance of surviving.
Look at the business models of the foreign auto manufactures who have plants here in America. We don't see them running to the government for handouts to survive. Furthermore, their employees seem to be well paid and quite content with their wage and benefit packages.
My brother, a 63 year old, very conservative attorney who usually votes Republican, said the other day that when the government bails out the financial and auto industries we are effectively socializing their debt but not socializing their profits. I think that he hit the nail on the head.
Dude
Posted by: Dude at December 02, 2008 09:41 AM (byA+E)
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This is just what Chapter 11 is for. Bailing out the automakers won't "save" them, it will only throw good money after bad. Restructuring is what they need in order to regain market, not a taxpayer funded reward for incompetence.
Posted by: Steve Skubinna at December 02, 2008 11:14 AM (Vcyz0)
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There is a critical difference between the banks and the auto makers.
The auto makers made their own bed and deserve to lie in it.
The banks were forced by Clinton, the CRA, HUD, Fannie, Freddie, and other government entities to make affirmative action loans and of course other opportunists rode in on the coattails of the "underserved" minorities.
The bank's problems are directly tracable to Bill Clinton, Janey Reno, Andrew Cumo, Barney Frank, Chris Dodd, Maxine Waters, Jamie Gorelik and the Democrats in general.
Posted by: RFYoung at December 02, 2008 11:42 AM (WqZCc)
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For aa company, bankruptcy is not the end of the world. It gives them a chance to get their act together.
PG&E went bankrupt and we still had lights and heat.
The unions took them to the cleaners and have been doing it for years. No company can do well with the amount of money being poured into retirement and health care funds.
Posted by: Dammit at December 02, 2008 12:14 PM (VLaYf)
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White it is true that much of the responsibility of the current financial mess in our country can be rightly blamed on Democrats, it is also true that the blame is equally shared by both major political parties in America. This is not a Democrat vs. Republican issue. Politicians and business people of all political stripes benefited from this "bubble" until it burst.
Furthermore, the "under served" minorities that people often mention as the major cause of the current mess are a only a drop in the bucket compared to the higher income people who also bought homes, condos and vacation homes that they couldn't afford. The banks loved it!
This ain't the first time that this has happened and likely won't be the last. It's a cycle that can be traced back to the Federal Reserve Act of December 23, 1923. This is a bi-partisan scam perpetuated against the American people by a few wealthy banking families in the US and Western Europe. The succession of "bailouts" that have occurred since the Fed was created is the payoff. The recipients of the bailouts are really the ones feeding at the public trough, exactly as planned.
Pitting Democrats and Republicans against each other is simply a diversion technique. Until the American people wake up and realize who the REAL culprit is in these ongoing government bailouts, and demand changing the fundamentals of the system, it will be business as usual regardless of which major party is in office.
Posted by: Dude at December 02, 2008 03:25 PM (byA+E)
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"We bailed out banks that gave credit to illegal aliens (Thanks Citibank!) and mortgages to morons that couldn't pay the minimums on their credit cards, and now babies are coming out of the womb owing money because Congress doesn't have the spine to tell these banks the honest truth that they deserve to fail for bad decision-making fueled by greed."
R.F. Young is right. But why is allways the taxpayer who gets to pay for Congress's mistakes while those who made the mistakes, such as Frank and Dodd, still control the purse strings.
Posted by: davod at December 03, 2008 06:21 AM (GUZAT)
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"But why is allways the taxpayer who gets to pay for Congress's mistakes while those who made the mistakes, such as Frank and Dodd, still control the purse strings."
Ooh! Oooh! I know! I know!
Because the taxpayers as a group are too dim to vote the scoundrels out of office and into jail, and in the final analysis -- in a republic -- the people get the type of government they deserve.
I voted against my incumbent Representative this year because he fell into the Dodd/Frank mold. He was even the same party as I am. Did you?
Posted by: Mark L at December 03, 2008 08:47 AM (bWB5j)
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Part of the problem is a semantic one. This is not an auto company bailout; it is a UAW bailout. The reason why they refuse to consider BK is that they know any BK judge would force renegotiation of the union contracts and pension and health programs. When you are drowning, you don't add life jackets, you cut loose the anchor chained to your leg.
Posted by: MIke K at December 03, 2008 09:49 AM (qyndN)
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"Part of the problem is a semantic one. This is not an auto company bailout; it is a UAW bailout. The reason why they refuse to consider BK is that they know any BK judge would force renegotiation of the union contracts and pension and health programs. When you are drowning, you don't add life jackets, you cut loose the anchor chained to your leg."
The problem that I see with this assertion is that it would be to the auto companies' benefit to have a bankruptcy judge force the renegotiation of the union contracts and pension and health programs.
That being the case, why would the auto companies management be asking for a bailout in order to keep in place the current UAW contract with its strangling provisions, work rules, healthcare costs, etc? Seems to me that from a management perspective that they would welcome an opportunity to be rid of burden of the current contracts.
There has to be more to it than that.
Posted by: Dude at December 03, 2008 11:33 AM (byA+E)
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The politics of the bailout were deconstructed a bit for us here in Ga courtesy of Chambliss and Martin. At the end, Martin was running an ad that ties Chambliss to the "Wall Street Bailout" which is the $700b original bailout which of course he DID vote for and in the same ad lambastes him for not supporting Barry's "Stimulus Package" which is ANOTHER bailout. Left out of any of this is that Barry also voted for the bailout. Was that wrong? Such a notion is never even entertained as the Martin people seem confident it is so unknown as to be irrelevant. But the result, a 14% blowout without Barry generating Dem turnout tells the tale. These people who gave Barry his margin are basically apolitical. They know nothing of what Obama or McCain or Bush do or say. They know nothing of the offices in play and quite nearly nothing of the people involved. This ignorance is a luxury, perhaps the second luxury of national wealth after a longer life. It is a luxury they can no longer (or not much longer) afford and that is good for the country at large. Look at your most obnoxious Obamoid acquaintances. They are genuinely and sincerely shocked that Barack has yet to cure all evils with his gentle words. And that boob isn't even in office yet. It is Reality Therapy and in the end it is the only cure. Hurts like hell though.
As for the relative culpability of the parties, it is true that the Republicans failed to reign in the Democrats. It is untrue to say they did not attempt to do so. Any hint of oversight at Fannie and Freddie (which legislation and lesser acts were proposed by Bush and McCain at different times and by a few other big names) was denounced as a racist assault by Dodd/Frank and their media fellow travelers. I can blame Reps for spending excesses and responsibility may plausibly reside with them for some securities problems but the mortgage disaster is 100% the fault of Democrats (many of whom made VAST fortunes from same) and stereotypical Dem policies. As such there is no prospect for improvement here and serious room for yet greater depradations unless Barry actually is the Messiah. Hope for that.
Posted by: megapotamus at December 03, 2008 03:24 PM (LF+qW)
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Dude, probably because a bankruptcy judge would also slash the CEOs salaries and bonuses; if they get a bailout, they can still get their dinero.
Mind you, I am not in any way advocating government regulation of CEO pay... just providing a possible reason that the Big 3 CEOs are willing to beg for a handout rather than go through bankruptcy.
Posted by: ConservativeWanderer (formerly C-C-G) at December 03, 2008 08:48 PM (Banpw)
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Are you suggesting that no Republicans made vast sums of money with the so called "troubled assets" in the mortgage industry? If so, that is absurd. I personally know several housing developers (Republicans) who did very well with the housing bubble over the past few years. None of their projects were Fannie nor Freddie. None of their clients were under served minorities. All of their buyers were upper and upper middle income people who simply bought more house or condo than they could afford. Furthermore, the banks and mortgage companies were happy to lend them the money. Everyone who could rode that train until it crashed, Pubs and Dems alike.
No surprise about the election results in Georgia yesterday. Georgia is like my state, Tennessee, in regards to national politics. As many Republican policy wonks have recently stated, their party is going to have to reinvent itself in order to regain the confidence of the national electorate. By pandering to the extreme right wing of their party the Republicans have marginalized themselves into a regional party. The recent election has changed the landscape and the formula for victory that Republicans have depended on since 1968.
My goodness, just look at NC and VA! The solid South ain't so solid anymore. NC in particular comes to mind. The Senate seat currently held by Elizabeth Dole will be occupied by a Democrat come January. Keep in mind that that seat is the one formerly held by the darling of extreme right wingers for decades, Rep. Senator Jesse Helms.
Though there may be some folks who think of President Elect Barack Obama as a Messiah, I personally don't know any Democrats who regard him in that light. In fact, the only people that I've heard refer to him as such have been disappointed Republicans. He is however, a very bright man. He didn't win the election by being a "boob". He's a very practical man.
President Obama will be intelligent enough to know that he must govern from the center, or a bit left of center, to achieve even SOME of his stated goals. In fact, some of his recent appointments prove my point.
As Senator McCain so truthfully said to a lady who called President Elect Obama a terrorist on the campaign trail....."No Mam, you don't have to be afraid of Senator Obama as President."
I would agree with you that many citizens of BOTH parties are ignorant when it comes to American Civics. The electorate has been dumbed down. I attribute much of that to the likes of Rush Limbaugh, Sean Hannity, Bill O'Reilly, Michael Savage, Ann Coulter and others of their ilk. Nevertheless, enough voters rejected the right wing propaganda machine and elected Obama with roughly 53% of the votes cast. To quote Sen. McCain again: The American people have spoken and they have spoken clearly.
To me, one of the most interesting statistics of this election is that 52% of the people who are in the income bracket whose taxes would be raised 3% by President Elect Obama's proposal during the campaign, voted for him. Having said that, I agree with the several pundits who now speculate that he isn't likely to push for that tax increase anytime soon.
As for the bailouts, I don't know how that will play out. I imagine that whatever happens would happen regardless of which party were in power. History shows us that there's no reason to believe otherwise.
Posted by: Dude at December 03, 2008 09:13 PM (byA+E)
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Jeez! You don't understand that the Auto company mess is democrat driven too? It was the Dems that put all the restrictions and taxes and demands on the auto companys that formed the money crunch for them. Competing auto companies from overseas don't have our taxes, nor our medical insurance programs, nor contribute to our economy anywhere near our companies do. The companies that have smll plants here don't buy tooling and parts here, or even machinery. They import it all....and they don't pay taxes on the real estate and content like our companies do.
That's OK though....let the auto companies go ahead and move their headquarters overseas and shut their plants here and move all their operations overseas too......then you'll see the shit hit the fan. There WILL be a depression then. Auto related industry is at least 10% of the GNP....and you want to throw it away....I can't think of anything more idiotic, except Obama in the White House...and you idiots already did that. Well, screw ya! Do it and live with it. I'm doing my "John Galt" thing, as of now.
Posted by: Tonto (USA) at December 03, 2008 10:34 PM (Qv1xF)
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Chapter 11 baby! Read about it. It's somewhere between chapter 10 and chapter 13. Bottom line: Big 3 would dissolve their contracts with the unions and start fresh. But the dems CAN'T let THAT happen. Them's their buddies.
http://rightklik.blogspot.com/
Posted by: Jason at December 03, 2008 11:24 PM (sQ3gH)
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"Chapter 11 baby! Read about it. It's somewhere between chapter 10 and chapter 13. Bottom line: Big 3 would dissolve their contracts with the unions and start fresh. But the dems CAN'T let THAT happen. Them's their buddies."
This problem is MUCH more complex than THAT. For one thing, the Big 3 won't have the authority to dissolve their contracts, even in Chapter 11. That's up to the bankruptcy judge.
I have a feeling that this bailout IS going to happen, in one form or another. As I've said before, it wouldn't matter which political party is in power.
Pitting Dems against Pubs is simply a diversion by BOTH parties. In fact, if history is any indication at all you'll see the two parties make compromises to make sure that the American Auto Manufacturers don't go bust. Of course, the ONLY way for this to be successful is for the UAW to be forced to make major concessions, too.
Posted by: Dude at December 04, 2008 10:09 AM (byA+E)
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Well, Dude, if both parties really are in an eeeeeeeeeeeeevil conspiwacy to do something nefarious, you'd best start looking for a cave somewhere in the woods where you can hide from the Black Helicopters, shouldn't you?
Posted by: ConservativeWanderer (formerly C-C-G) at December 04, 2008 05:44 PM (Banpw)
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You know, CW? I'm not really sure if Dude is due that level of Snark. Granted he compared so many different fruits in his long screed above that I thought I was getting in line for a nice refreshing fruit salad, but he doesn't appear to me to be worried about those helicopters either.
How about it, Dude? Would you care to try to explain how this I personally know several housing developers (Republicans) who did very well with the housing bubble over the past few years. None of their projects were Fannie nor Freddie. equates to Dodd/Frank (Democrat politicians) making loads on the situation? Do "...several housing developers (Republicans)..." = Democrat politicians?
For my two cents on any government bailout scenario for any 'business sector' - I am against it. I told my Rep and Sens to NOT vote for the "700B bailout of Wall Street" because I happen to believe in free market corrections. Chapter 11 is the only real answer to the US auto industry right now. They will come out of it leaner and potentially profitable.
Posted by: PhyCon (formerly Mark) at December 04, 2008 06:15 PM (4od5C)
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I still can't get over the ridiculousness that the leftist illuminati is even ENTERTAINED the idea of following this through. Our country will not fail due to a few poorly run companies not having money
Posted by: ew at December 05, 2008 03:30 PM (8z7qO)
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If you are going to trash an American industry that has lasted a century, you owe it to the rest of us to read this:
http://www.levelfieldinstitute.org/
The import companies wisely located in states with foundering economies thereby wrangling hundreds of millions in the form of incentives and tax breaks. They also looked for depressed employment numbers (read wages) so the money offered was just a little above the median. The imports have their homeboys health covered by their national networks and ALL of the profit they make here gets sent home, much as the illegal workers do.
The gap in quality is now narrow enough to call it closed. In 2006 Toyota recalled more cars than it built. GM's Fairfax Assembly plant won the Bronze award from J.D. Power in productivity for 2008 against ALL the North American facilities D3 and carpetbaggers combined. They build the award winning Chevy Malibu and the award winning Saturn Aura in standard and hybrid configurations.
4 million people looking for work now. People are screaming for Government to do something. Now add job losses to the tune of 3 million more from the auto industry. Do you see the formula for insurrection?
This whole flap about the economy can be traced directly back to the Carter/Clinton years with the Community Reinvestment Act. Add to that Obama's ACORN and remember George W. Bush tried 12 TIMES to throttle back the lending industry without agreement from Chris Dodd or Barney Frank.
If these subprime buyers had been held at bay, the housing prices would have held not have had the wild runup to 2006 levels. Much of the economy's growth over 5 years was due to borrowed money being spent on consumer goods. I would take a flat economy any day over what we see now.
Thanks to the bundling of bad loans, speculators ran the markets thru the roof, much like commodities speculators did with crude oil this year.
The D3 is guilty of building vehicles that the public would buy. They just forgot to count on $4.00 oil.
The Chevy Volt is the bright spot. Estimated battery power range is 40 miles. Then a 1.0 turbocharged E-85 capable engine fires up and powers the vehicle thru the electrics and charges the battery with unused current.
Range: 400 miles
So there. Keep the jobs in America.
Posted by: H8 foreigners and their influence at December 07, 2008 01:23 AM (16Mwg)
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December 01, 2008
Future Stupid Weapons
Embrace the absurdity of the chainsaw bayonet.
Via the
Firearms Blog.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
08:02 AM
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Gears of War in real life. Pumpkins do make poor substitutes for Locust though.
Posted by: Tristan Phillips at December 01, 2008 09:36 AM (0tV1H)
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Looks like someone has been playing too much Warhammer 40K.
I like how he proudly struts back towards the camera. "I totally eviserated those chaos cultists!"
Posted by: brando at December 01, 2008 09:46 AM (qzOby)
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I want one before the Obamessiah gun/chainsaw ban comes into effect.
Posted by: Federale at December 01, 2008 12:05 PM (9Ocfc)
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He should be careful of his toes.
Posted by: brando at December 01, 2008 12:43 PM (qzOby)
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I only wish I'd thought of it.
Posted by: Mike Gray at December 01, 2008 01:07 PM (kZVsz)
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He's got nothing on the Rocket Propelled Chainsaw.
Posted by: Alpheus at December 01, 2008 03:22 PM (rkV8b)
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Darwin award in 3...2...1...
Posted by: Vercingetorix at December 01, 2008 04:13 PM (N8eC4)
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Well, I wonder why anyone would fail to listen to THAT reasoned argument...
Posted by: Vercingetorix at December 01, 2008 10:40 PM (iTDJo)
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If it were not true, I would not be laughing so hard....thanks for sharing that!
Posted by: Left Coast Conservative at December 01, 2008 11:01 PM (05ff4)
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November 30, 2008
NY Times Scurrying To Give Obama Victory Credit For Their Shared Defeat In Iraq
Barack Obama and his Democratic allies have famously done everything in their power to try to lose the Iraqi War while President Bush is in office, but now that everyone with any understanding of the conflict knows that the war is effectively won, Democrats are trying to steal credit for the victory they fought so hard against:
In the last year, though, the U.S. troop surge and the backlash from moderate Iraqi Sunnis against Al Qaeda and Iraqi Shiites against pro-Iranian extremists have brought a new measure of stability to Iraq. There is now, for the first time, a chance — still only a chance — that a reasonably stable democratizing government, though no doubt corrupt in places, can take root in the Iraqi political space.
That is the Iraq that Obama is inheriting. It is an Iraq where we have to begin drawing down our troops — because the occupation has gone on too long and because we have now committed to do so by treaty — but it is also an Iraq that has the potential to eventually tilt the Arab-Muslim world in a different direction.
I’m sure that Obama, whatever he said during the campaign, will play this smart. He has to avoid giving Iraqi leaders the feeling that Bush did — that he’ll wait forever for them to sort out their politics — while also not suggesting that he is leaving tomorrow, so they all start stockpiling weapons.
If he can pull this off, and help that decent Iraq take root, Obama and the Democrats could not only end the Iraq war but salvage something positive from it. Nothing would do more to enhance the Democratic Party’s national security credentials than that.
If
he can pull this of?
Let's be very clear, so that even a historical revisionist like Friedman can understand it.
House and Senate Democrats, including President Elect Barack Obama, did everything in their power to lose the Iraq War, and deserve no credit for any success.
How many times in the past two years have Nancy Pelosi and Harry Reid and their cohorts attempted to defund our troops and force them into defeat? Forty times? Fifty? Frankly, I lost count somewhere in the mid-forties.
Now Friedman and his fellow defeatists on the left who long derided those of us who wanted to secure victory as "28-percenters," "warmongers" and "murderers" want to try to rewrite history. The
Times and their fellow travelers long to rewrite their moral cowardice as a virtue, and give themselves a victory by declaration.
That will not be their legacy.
This will.

Friedman should remember this. His newspaper attempted to subsidize defeat, cutting MoveOn.Org a 61% discount to attack our top general during the surge.

A Times photographer took this picture of a Madhi Army militiaman sniping at U.S. soldiers in July of 2006. Impartially, of course.
Democrats including Barack Obama can salvage
nothing from Iraq. They were clearly and proudly on the other side, and the resulting allied victory was a defeat for them as it was for al Qaeda, the insurgency, and Iran.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
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1
While I agree the Dems deserve no credit (except, perhaps, for not screwing up what is handed them) I'm afraid you're wrong that they won't be able to pull off the revisionism. The country will fall for it hook, line & sinker.
Posted by: Deuce Geary at November 30, 2008 01:38 PM (Q285d)
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what's the nyt readership, right now?
less than a million?
I figure 90% of those readers already believe Iraq is going in the loss column, which may provide for 'convincing' less than 100k that Obama won in Iraq.
money quote?
"He has to avoid giving Iraqi leaders the feeling that Bush did — that he’ll wait forever for them to sort out their politics"
hasn't a three year deal for withdrawal already been reached? I guess friedman is just one of the 299 million americans who doesn't read the nyt.
Posted by: mark l. at November 30, 2008 02:23 PM (YQWyY)
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I hereby vow to bitch-slap the first person that tells me to my face that Obama or any Democrat did anything positive for Iraq, and I invite others to do the same.
Posted by: sherlock at November 30, 2008 02:33 PM (8V5Ut)
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"There is now, for the first time, a chance — still only a chance — that a reasonably stable democratizing government, though no doubt corrupt in places, can take root in the Iraqi political space."
heads-obama wins, tails-bush loses.
Posted by: mark l. at November 30, 2008 02:36 PM (YQWyY)
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"Hook, slime, and stinker," you mean, Deuce Geary?
--
http://booksinq.blogspot.com
Posted by: Judith Fitzgerald at November 30, 2008 02:42 PM (5KdgY)
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I wish the Bush Administration would use the Iraqi Status of Forces Agreement recently passed by their legislature to declare the war a US-Iraqi victory.
Sherlock:
Senator Joe Lieberman was the only one, but I guess he's now an independent.
Posted by: arch at November 30, 2008 02:48 PM (gPMC3)
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It is too early for anyone in either party to take credit for "winning the Iraq War".
I do not believe that this war has been won or lost or can ever be won or lost in the definition of a "military victory". This is not the gauge that can be used. It is political and cultural peace that will come or fail to come to Iraq.
I still say we made a mistake going in. Saddam kept order and it is not our calling in the world to get involved militarily to decide on who runs a country. That's what revolutions and change from within are about. Many countries have done just fine without our military intervention, including most of the entire former Soviet eastern block!
The real definition of success or failure of the Iraq war will be when we finally withdraw and the Iraqis come to an internal peace within all the factions. I do not believe that this will happen anytime in the near term!
We will also not "win" a military victory in Afghanistan.
I will tell you one thing: You and I will not live long enough to see a president of this country launch a pre-emptive war again! They will continue to strike hostiles, but you will not see an Iraq again!
Posted by: Ernest Salomon at November 30, 2008 02:56 PM (4gHqM)
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Ernest --
"Saddam kept order and it is not our calling in the world to get involved militarily to decide on who runs a country."
Absolute horse crap. He did not keep order, that's a direct lie. He was an evil murderer. We're not talking about screwing with an election. We're talking about feeding people feet first into chipper-shredders, having movies made of people's tongues being cut out, gassing entire villages of men, women and children and much more.
You side with that?
Posted by: Oligonicella at November 30, 2008 03:07 PM (Sm8K5)
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Not be able to pull it off ? Ha ! They're still taking credit for a couple of balanced budgets in the '90's under Clinton. Back then, House Republicans dragged Bill kicking and screaming through 7 budget attempts resulting in the federal government shutting down. Remember, America ? The one Republicans got blamed for ? Remember ? Newt Gingrich ? Book Deal ? To this day, polls show Americans trusting Democrats more than Republicans on economic policies. Sorry to the author, but Democrats will end up taking credit for all good that happens in this country and Republicans will always take the blame for all that is bad. It's just sad that Republicans aren't bright enough to point these facts out during critical elections.....
Posted by: DaveinPhoenix at November 30, 2008 03:21 PM (r2rWp)
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Bush won the war. Can Obama win the peace?
Posted by: Loyola at November 30, 2008 03:22 PM (PxQsG)
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I don't read it that way, perhaps because Thomas Friedman was a hawk on Iraq from the outset. He thought that the execution of the occupation was terrible, but lots of people thought that including McCain. But Friedman was down with the whole regime change, establish-a-democratic-Arab-center thing. He defended Bush in the NY Times, which took balls.
What I read here is a plea to the DEMOCRATS (the people who read the &%$# paper) to not turn the victory into defeat just because it was Bush's idea.
As far as the Democrats claiming a win in Iraq, they tried much the same thing with the Cold War (Reagan had left office, just happened, etc) and it didn't work. This is just internal Democrat argument, and the rest of us should ignore it.
Posted by: Kevin at November 30, 2008 03:25 PM (roJck)
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I agree with Deuce. After all most of the idiots in the country voted for someone they didn't know and still don't know anything about. They will believe anything, especially if it reflects badly on Bush. Incidentally, I won't live to see it, but decades from now, legitiment historians will catagorize Bush as one of the great presidents.
Posted by: PABill at November 30, 2008 03:57 PM (emgKi)
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Obama doesn't need to "pull off" anything. He needs to DO NOTHING and allow the plans in place to execute as planned.
The public may be stupid, and have a relatively short memory, but they're not going to swallow revisionism over this one. Returning vets won't allow that to happen.
Posted by: PA at November 30, 2008 03:59 PM (CwzFE)
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Sadly, revisionism WILL work.
It was worked in VietNam. Even though I am a conservative, there are things about VietNam that I did not know until 2006 (age 32), which I found out by going pretty far out of my way to research :
1) Most US casualties in VietNam occurred by 1968. From 1969 onwards, US casualties were very low.
2) The US withdrew from VietNam in 1973. So while Saigon fell in 1975, that was 2 years AFTER the US left. So the South Viets lost VietNam, not the Americans.
3) China invaded VietNam in 1979, and LOST about 40,000 troops in 2 months. Very few people even remember this short and bloody war.
4) Of course, no one mentions that VietNam today is a peaceful country with a booming, capitalist economy (though still not a democracy). So in the long run, didn't we 'win' in our goal of having free markets replace Communism?
So even the most pro-US people think we 'lost' in VietNam. We didn't. The South Vietnamese lost it 2 years after we withdrew, and 7 years after the most intense fighting by US troops finished.
This is extremely effective revisionism, and will be done again.
Posted by: GK at November 30, 2008 04:03 PM (QRBhQ)
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Barry is despicable human trash
Posted by: whosebone at November 30, 2008 04:05 PM (4gHqM)
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Much like the dem politicians in the sixties didn't turn against the Vietnam war until Nixon won.
Kerry anyone?
Posted by: Jay Golan at November 30, 2008 04:05 PM (2OwGa)
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"..but decades from now, legitiment historians will catagorize Bush as one of the great presidents."
It won't take that long. 10 years from now, he will ge considered 'good'. But not great. He was not as great as Reagan, but he WAS the second-best President of the last 45 years.
Posted by: GK at November 30, 2008 04:08 PM (QRBhQ)
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I suspect that Confederate Yankee is being unreasonable:
If Obama screws up the follow-up, you'll blame him.
If Obama doesn't screw up the follow-up, you'll say he doesn't deserve any credit.
Do I guess correctly, CY?
I don't believe you can have it both ways: If he can't earn any credit, in your eyes, for good follow-through, then he can't accrue any blame for bad follow-through.
So does that you're prepared to accept any negative consequences as being due solely to GWB's "excellent planning"?
Somehow, I doubt it.
Posted by: Neal J. King at November 30, 2008 04:25 PM (WPnYQ)
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You are incorrect Neal. The only way Obummer can get any credit is if he doesn't screw it up. And then he only gets credit for not screwing it up. If the deal goes south, he gets all the credit for that, since that is what he wanted and campaigned for all along anyway. So you see Obummer doesn't get to have it both ways.
Posted by: Phil at November 30, 2008 04:42 PM (A0Xk3)
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Neal, what, specifically, does Obama deserve any credit for?
He's fought tooth and nail against the very victory we have successfully brought to Iraq, so why does that entitle him to even the smallest sliver of credit?
Please seek professional help for your Obama Worship Syndrome immediately, before you put up an altar to The One in your living room.
Posted by: ConservativeWanderer (formerly C-C-G) at November 30, 2008 04:46 PM (Banpw)
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Revisionism will be the easy part. After all, they control a vast majority of the media and education systems. Within a generation, young adults will be lauding Barack Obama for his gallant victory in Iraq. The rest of us will be saying, "wait a second..." and will then be branded as a bunch of racist good 'ole boys.
He's already being written into history books and that's just the first step.
Posted by: Mike Gray at November 30, 2008 04:48 PM (fBnZs)
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Neil J. King you are correct: if Obama screws up the path laid out for him, he will deserve every bit of scorn that historians will pile upon him for incompetence, and every bit of fire in Hell for American and Iraqi lives unnecessarily lost because of his ineptitude. Likewise, Obama will deserve no credit if he managed not to screw up the hard gains won despite his fevered opposition.
Barack Obama deserves no credit for any success in Iraq and can never claim victory, as he was a strident enemy of success. That is what happens when you choose to back your foreign enemies against your allies and your own nation. Even though his has yet to be sworn in, he is a failed President by virtue of his opposition to the success of the United States.
As for Bush, yes; he bought and paid for the success or failure of the war when he decided to engage in an invasion, and like in every war this nation has ever fought, the political and military leadership had made some horrible decisions along the way.
The fact remains that after a modern blitzkrieg that overthrew one of the world's largest militaries in weeks, a vicious insurgency, rampant terrorism in a conflict that al Qaeda declared their central front, a near civil war, and years of occupation before a made-from-scratch military and police took over security for the bulk of the country and the first Arab democracy in history, and we still have suffered fewer casualties in this war, insurgency, occupation, and nation-building than we suffered in individual battles in past wars.
Tell me, Mr. King: Are you ready to give our political and military leadership credit for that stunning bit of success? Somehow, I think not.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at November 30, 2008 05:12 PM (HcgFD)
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Actually, Mike, revisionism might not be that easy. The MoveOnMedia are smack dab in the middle of shredding what was left of their credibility by coming out with their "oh, by the way, we forgot to tell you this about Obama during the election" stories.
Even the average voter--excepting the brainless dolts who really drunk the kool-aid--can figure out that the media was completely in the tank for Obama from that coverage. What the MoveOnMedia are probably trying to do now is prove that they're no longer in the tank, but what they're really doing is highlighting how far they'd been in before.
Therefore, any credit coming from the MoveOnMedia for Obama's "victory" in a war he really wanted us to lose is gonna be seen by your average voter as one more attempt to glorify The One--which it is--and thus won't really be believed. The MoveOnMedia will have completed their transformation into Baghdad Bob. "I triple guarantee you, there are no American soldiers in Baghdad." They've already got the "Bush is a war criminal" part of the Baghdad Bob spiel down pat, after all.
Posted by: ConservativeWanderer (formerly C-C-G) at November 30, 2008 05:15 PM (Banpw)
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GK, as you say it was in 1975 when the North Vietnamese Army won the war. However, the U.S. democratic congress, cutting off their supplies, forced the South Vietnamese to fail. They were doing very well indeed until then.
Posted by: tjbbpgob at November 30, 2008 05:25 PM (I4yBD)
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Obama is like the guy who puts up a layup after someone else brings the ball downcourt, then passes off to him under the basket. Obama gets the credit but Bush did most of the work. And it will be played that way - i.e., that Bush managed to keep from losing the ball but Obama put the points up & deserves the credit. Which is nonsense, of course, but there it is.
There's no way that Bush is a great or even very good president. He's pretty average, but got the one big decision he had to make right. He's like Truman dropping the bomb. Years from now, a lot of people will believe that invading Iraq was the wrong decision, more will believe otherwise, but there will always be an argument about it.
Posted by: punditius at November 30, 2008 05:34 PM (dwYT1)
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Since someone up-thread mentioned the withdrawal agreement, let me point out one important part...
The deal could still be rejected by the Iraqi people in a referendum scheduled for July 30, a key Sunni demand to get their agreement, but by then U.S. troops will no longer be a visible presence in urban areas.
Query for lefties (like, I suspect, Mr. King): if the Iraqi people do indeed request that US troops remain, will you lefties continue to demand their withdrawal, thus advocating that we break our agreement with the sovereign government and people of Iraq?
Posted by: ConservativeWanderer (formerly C-C-G) at November 30, 2008 05:34 PM (Banpw)
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The accelerating irrelevance of the NYT makes this a moot point; as they say, if a tree falls in the forest and no one is there to hear it, does it really make a sound? God bless our troops, and the citizens of this nation that had the backbone to stand up and support them and their mission!
Posted by: James at November 30, 2008 06:00 PM (rsyWa)
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So the NYSlimes tries to play the CYA game as the doors close. If not for the Slimes and the worse Slimes in the democrat party the war would not have been a war. It would have been over when Hussein was killed and the troops would have been home long ago. The TS data leaked to the slimes from congress and other assistance the democrats provided to the terrorists are responsible for 90%+ of the American deaths in Iraq. Even the terrorists will admit they kept hanging on in hope the democrats could force the American military to abandon the fight. It didn't happen so I classify the entire democrat party right up there with the worst traitors in American history. Maybe a few attacks like the one in India will wake up the American citizens to the lies of the democrats, and how they set the U.S. up for destruction. All to satisfy their ego and gain 'political' power which will disappear with the likes of Hussein O in power. He's not going to trust the traitors long.
Posted by: Scrapiron at November 30, 2008 06:16 PM (GAf+S)
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well, look at the bright side. If the Democrats and the MSM (but I repeat myself) really believe that the credit will go to Bush and Republicans for winning the wars (2 or three, depending on how you count) of Iraq, then they will sabotage Iraq. That way, the ultimate failure can be blamed on Republicans. It worked in Vietnam.
Never misunderstand that, to a Democrat, a Republican is more of an enemy than any communist/dictator/jihadi. The spiritual descendants of Tories and Copperheads, Democrats actively work against our country for political power and personal gain.
Posted by: iconoclast at November 30, 2008 06:58 PM (2s01C)
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It was worked in VietNam.
Iraq != Vietnam.
Media circa 1973 != media circa 2009. The public today perceives Iraq as having turned. The media in 1973 never acknowledged the win in Vietnam, nor did the public perceive one which paved the way for congressional betrayal of South Vietnam a couple of years later.
These situations are completely different. The attitude of the veterans involved is different.
Posted by: PA at November 30, 2008 07:35 PM (CwzFE)
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Like Richard Nixon declaring "Peace with Honor" in Viet Nam, and Bush's first declaration of "Mission Accomplished" all one needs do is declare a victory in Iraq and poof, its true. Right?
You guys are so unable to see your own self-delusion. You Tinkerbells don't have the guts to face the truth- the President is a fool, and using warfare to create a stable democracy in Iraq is a fool's mission. But no, be brave, act like anyone who disagrees is a coward, and keep blowing hot air.
Here's a point of view you never consider: Why not ask the Iraqi people what they want, since you are all fired up about democracy. No? Could that be because polls show they want us out, soon?
You do realize that don't you?
Not the kind of democracy you had in mind, is it?
Let the backpedaling on democracy begin....
Posted by: smellthecoffee at November 30, 2008 08:21 PM (qMP3U)
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i am malaysian.
and i knew and have many american friends in our town church;-christian young missionaries and ouples missionaries.
When asked about 2nd world war,vietnam war, korean war, irag, balkan war; some shows indeference, but oldr couples always has something to say and seems to know something.
or maybe, they just pretending and do not want to talk about it.
we, especially the malaysian or asian christian for that matter, felt very indebted and grateful for the thousands upon thousands of american who die for us and around the world for the defence of freedom and human dignity.american govment actions for theri involvement migth be political reciprocation, thats theri buisness, but for us, american who die figthing in all this war were angels and our saviors. tell me if any asian countries who are willing to sent her people to die defending good values? Surprisingly, most american are blind to this fact; instead they condemn the deed of their leaders and soldiers who suffered and die for others. all they know is their own selfish personal greeds and views. today, american fell victim to their enemies who wants america to stand idle and save its own skin;- good for certain reasons, but definitely not for america's global prestige and iglobal influence and respect as a world power. it will be a weak world power.
Obama can talk well but american will be disappointed for hoping too much. Clinton's global influence and respect is the weakest american admnistrtion.-of course the enemies lauded this peaceful administration and clinton fell for it, and american too. look, what happen after that, now. this is when all the muslim terrorist sees and percieve america to be weak and they became very bold and planning. maybe clinton knew something but do not act on it - to save himself? now Obama is revsiting it?
american administration hypocrisy is ith saudi arabia. Obama or whoever can never defaet muslim terrorist if the do not have the guts to deal with the main global sponsor or maybe america is oil addict. their economic machinaries are oil addict.
Any american president should ask himself what good he want from the world and what good can america give to the world and humanity and then stay the course, at all cost.
In God we trust. america is God,s intsrument for his purposes, porvided the american people are aware of thier chosen nation and people; a great nations among all nations; and its people act accordingly. sound prophetic? watch carefully waht unfold to america nad the world.
Posted by: mike at November 30, 2008 08:58 PM (dFYg7)
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The article by the so called confederate yankee is biased.He failed to mention the Anbar Awakening,or that many of the fighter were paid off to stop the insurgency.What will happen when we stop giving them money?Or they are force to share the oil revenue?The surge was only temporary.Only a removal of our troops will bring stability to Iraq.
Posted by: Kala Nation at November 30, 2008 08:58 PM (3wXOn)
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The Iraq war has been a failure since it's beginning. There is NO WAY to EVER win that war. The sooner US troops are home, the better.
Posted by: Bob at November 30, 2008 09:04 PM (xk4bd)
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Okay, I'm going to try my best to be impartial here. I do not claim any party. But let's be serious here. How can you legitimately feel that Bush has won in Iraq? You shouldn't get any credit for fixing a situation when you are the one who precipitated into a mess. Saddam was a very bad person, did lots of evil things and needed to be removed but that was not the motivation that Bush used to enter Iraq. He sold it to the American public as a way of countering the spread of weapons of mass destruction from reaching us here and reverted to Saddam was evil when the weapons didn't materialize. If he said it was about regime change from the start, majority of the American public would never stand for it. Even then it was improperly planned, the surge that is now moderately successful was what should have been done when the Iraq War started. At this point, failure in Iraq is not an option but it will never be any sort of victory for Bush/Republicans, basically it will be cleaning the mess that was made on the way to Iraq. All the Democrats/Obama need to do is not to mess up any gains that have been made in the last couple of years in Iraq.
Posted by: What$the$hell at November 30, 2008 09:13 PM (bdjjB)
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Well, there was a recent post from a GI (Big Country) about how American forces nowadays hardly even hear shots fired in Iraq nowadays - let alone suffer casualties. So that works for me. Of course, smellthecoffee knows better than someone who's actually IN theatre - right?
I love how smellthecoffee and his/her/its friends keep hoping against hope that their heroes can pull off a fourth-quarter upset. Such a shame that smellthecoffee's buddy in the striped pants - and his fellow "minutemen" - failed. Although with 0bama at the helm, maybe there is still "hope" for him.
Posted by: Nine-of-Diamonds at November 30, 2008 09:14 PM (NlHwZ)
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I stumbled across this site while reading the news. Wow, what a nice feeling to be in the presence of such a group of intellectual giants!
As for future historians regarding Bush as America's greatest president, now that will take some REAL revisionism to pull off.
Get over it folks. We'll have a new president on January 20th. I thank God that he's a Democrat! Anyone with a lick of common sense should be able to discern that another 4 years of Republican leadership ain't what our great nation needs. Fortunately, 52% of us refused to be scared into voting for politics as usual. God Bless America!
Best Wishes to All,
A southern white liberal
Posted by: Dude at November 30, 2008 09:21 PM (byA+E)
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"I do not claim any party."
Uh-huh. Please note the lie about Bush not citing Saddam's inhumanity as a reason to remove him from power. This is a common tactic amongst Left Wing activists:
1) Claim (falsely) that only one reason was be cited for going to war - generally WMD's.
2) Claim that because that reason was "invalid", the war lacks justification.
Straight from the hard-left handbook.
But of course, this character has no partisan allegiances. Riiight.
Posted by: Nine-of-Diamonds at November 30, 2008 09:21 PM (NlHwZ)
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"Best Wishes to All,
A southern white liberal"
Y'all needs to get over your obsession with race, my friend. So you're a blanco nino who was guilt-tripped into voting for Teleprompter Negro-Jesus. Big whoop. Congratulations, assuming your white-ness and southern-ness are genuine - want a cookie?
Posted by: Nine-of-Diamonds at November 30, 2008 09:26 PM (NlHwZ)
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What does victory in Iraq look like again? Even I, a heretofore steadfast supporter of our military effort to bring peace and democracy to Iraq, am beginning to feel like setting a date to get out of there isn’t such a bad idea. While we argue stateside over the possibility of giving another $25-50 billion in bailout money to GM, the Iraqi government is throwing away $13 billion of our money through “fraud, embezzlement, theft and waste by Iraqi government officials.” And that’s just the money that they have LOST.
The Dems have been indefensibly weak on this issue throughout our entire tenure in Iraq. There's no question about that. But the definition of victory in this war is becoming less and less clear to me, and it may be possible for the Libs to steal credit for it from us in the court of public opinion because none of us knows what it looks like in a war like this.
Posted by: Jane at November 30, 2008 09:29 PM (7tKbG)
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"Y'all needs to get over your obsession with race, my friend. So you're a blanco nino who was guilt-tripped into voting for Teleprompter Negro-Jesus. Big whoop. Congratulations, assuming your white-ness and southern-ness are genuine - want a cookie?"
Actually, neither race nor guilt had anything to do with my decision to vote for President Elect Barack Obama. Rather, I used my brain, common sense and reasoning. However, I don't expect you to understand that. That's OK, I understand.
Thanks for the Congratulations and the offer for a cookie. I think I'll pass on the cookie. I'm afraid that your baking skills might be on the same level as your reasoning skills. If that's the case, I have a feeling it wouldn't be a very tasty cookie. Thanks anyway!
Posted by: Dude at November 30, 2008 09:44 PM (byA+E)
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Nine of Diamonds,even if I was a "left wing activist" refute my claim with evidence instead of name-calling. I was right there paying attention to it on television as well as print media when within a couple of months of the Iraq War, the focus became not on WMDS but instead that Saddam needed to be removed. As for justification, Saddam has always been a prick so if the reason is not WMDs, then why go to war now? The reason does need to be valid my dear bloodthirsty warmonger who cares nothing about the thousands of innocents that have died because we are supposedly helping them gain a better country because otherwise we run into a situation where you start a war and justify it later. Really ass backwards under most people with sense. Hell what's preventing any country from doing that to us except for our military might? As for regime change being a proper justification, did the thousands of dead Iraqis ask you or I for this regime change? They suffered under Saddam but a lot of them will probably be ungrateful for this "free of charge regime change"
that we gave them because of the massive loss of lives, injuries and the uncertainty of life that has come with this Iraq War. Yes my dear warmonger, the reason needs to be valid.
Posted by: What$the$hell at November 30, 2008 09:46 PM (bdjjB)
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Hey "smellthecoffee" what else have you been drinking (or smoking besides coffee, read the latest news, they want us to stay another 3 years.
Posted by: Bill Newman at November 30, 2008 09:53 PM (MTjZC)
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Hey GK, I know you weren't even born yet when the Viet Nam War occurred, so you can be excused for not experiencing it, but your research is breathtakingly wrong.
Look up the Pentagon Papers- the Defense Department's own documents leaked to the public in which our government acknowledged that the war was being lost at the same time that it was claiming success publicly. Johnson didn't run for a second term because of Viet Nam. In 1974 Congress cut off funding to the South Vietnamese government to fight the North, and you blame the South Vietnamese government.
And most astonishingly, Viet Nam is not now a capitalist country, it is communist, and its economy has grown rapidly. They have had some free market reforms, but not capitalism.
Posted by: smellthecoffee at November 30, 2008 09:58 PM (qMP3U)
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What$the$hell ........The name calling is a classic technique used by the right wing wackozoids. It's called "The Straw Man Argument". When they are unable to engage in reasoned discourse, they simply call you names. Or, rather than responding in a logical manner, they might just say.....oh, that's stupid! It's much easier on them and doesn't make their heads hurt so much.
Posted by: Dude at November 30, 2008 10:00 PM (byA+E)
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Well Dude,their heads are probably safe because there has not been a lot of logic been used in regards to the Iraq War
Posted by: What$the$hell at November 30, 2008 10:06 PM (bdjjB)
47
I see the lefty trolls have invaded again.
People like them are why I use all he anti-troll features on my own blog.

Posted by: ConservativeWanderer (formerly C-C-G) at November 30, 2008 10:14 PM (Banpw)
48
Military victory in Iraq clearly implies it's potential opposite, defeat. If one believes that victory is obtainable then one must also acknowledge the possibility of defeat. Further, given the latter, one must also admit that defeat necessitates or is defined by surrender. who would our military surrender to?
From another perspective, can anyone name a military leader who says a military victory is a possibility?
Posted by: jeff at November 30, 2008 10:17 PM (zIQWN)
49
Hey Newman, are you reading the same news I am? Wasn't it Bush who said he would not name any timetables, and now he has agreed to have no troops in their cities by next summer, and out by 2011? Do you not recognize a complete capitulation by Bush when you see one? Oh I forgot, Bush has declared a victory, so its a victory....He says it, Fox News repeats it, you believe it. We won. Now lets go home.....
Withdrawal means leaving. Victory means winning.
We were told to leave. Officially. In writing.
And even the agreement could be cancelled by the Iraqis, by democratic vote.
You believe in democracy so you support their right to kick us out, right?
You do recall that it was George Bush who said prior to the invasion "the single question is, will Saddam disarm...". It had absolutely nothing to do with bringing democracy there. And you do recall that democracy did not become the mission until after the WMD were shown by Bush's own guy David Kaye to not exist.
How can you be such suckers for a liar?
Oh, and by the way, polls have consistently shown that the Iraqi people want us out much faster than 3 years. I guess 3 years was just the quickest withdrawal they could get us to agree to.
Wake up to reality.
Posted by: smellthecoffee at November 30, 2008 10:21 PM (qMP3U)
50
Hey, Nine-of-diamonds, read this:
"The world needs him to answer a single question: Has the Iraqi regime fully and unconditionally disarmed, as required by Resolution 1441, or has it not? "
George W. Bush
March 6, 2003 press conference
Posted by: smellthecoffee at November 30, 2008 10:32 PM (qMP3U)
51
The country is dumbed down enough to vote for a chicago thug politics politician who has done NOTHING! So why would they be smart enough to figure out that jesus himself had no hand in helping to defeat Hitler Hussein. jesus would not even visit our wounded soldiers.
obama has given NOTHING to this Country except to cut it down.
Posted by: mary at November 30, 2008 10:35 PM (rTzLX)
Posted by: Dude at November 30, 2008 10:47 PM (byA+E)
53
Heh. Kinda fun to poke them Magic Negro-worshippers with a stick. See the spittle fly.
Anyway, I'm not as optimistic as you are, Jim. It does not look like the economy will right itself the way it has in the past. Word has it that that there may be a crisis with consumer credit card debt next - not good news. I also have a sneaking suspicion that more industries are going to demand bailouts as the economic slowdown gathers steam. There is going to be no way for 0bama to implement his grandiose schemes AND bail out everyone who comes begging to Uncle Sam AND finance it all with a shrinking tax base. Unless he's fixing to run up the printing presses, and thanks to his inexperience he may just be stupid enough to do that. It's going to be pretty amusing when the 0bama-drones find out that inflation has wiped out the value of the "tax credits" Bracky's supposed to give them - assuming that the lying jackass even follows through on his promise.
Take note of how the price of oil has been spiking every time a short-lived market rally takes place. We can assume that even if there is a slight recovery then increased prices for fuel will be back. This means less discretionary spending for consumers, more trouble for the (dying) car industry, higher transportation costs for shippers, and increased prices for finished products. Don't worry, though - Teleprompter Jesus will sprinkle his fairy dust and make it all better.
Also take note of the kinds of stories the media has been running in the wake of 0bama's victory. Sentimental garbage about 0bama's new puppy. More fixation on Sarah Palin. Panic over "white supremacist plots" to kill their idol. They realize that there's no way he can solve the problems he's faced with, so they are running interference with insubstantial trash that nevertheless benefits him politically. If there was a real prospect he'd bring about economic recovery, then that's what they'd be focused on. Instead of a comprehensive economic vision, we are witnessing an effort to perpetuate the pre-election 0bama personality cult.
Even in the best of times we can't afford to appoint an Affirmative-Action nonentity as president. Having someone like 0bama in the office at this point in time is a recipe for disaster.
Posted by: Nine-of-Diamonds at November 30, 2008 10:48 PM (NlHwZ)
54
I think what most of you are forgetting is that the Iraq invasion was pretty unneccessary. Saddam was a bad man, but he was our bad man. We put him there to begin with to take care of the Iran AKA Muslim problem, then when he did that we called him a war criminal and harbinger of nuclear holocaust.
There were no weapons, there was no mushroom cloud, and any half-bright "republican" or whatever you people call yoursleves could see that from the get go. There was an Iraq agenda in place before Bush was elected (see PNAC), period. Don't ask me why... Daddy Drama.
What I can't wrap my head around is that people are perfectly willing to be lied to about these things and send their kids off to die, then blame the Democrats for all their troubles. Explain this to me.
In the end we are no closer to defeating anything in the mideast, not terror, not anything. We have become them. We torture, we kill children, we hold people without trial and spy on one another. We have sunk too many recources into other countries while ours crumbles, and for what?
Give different leadership a fighting chance, and if it fails then you have some licence to gab.
And for those of you who say Bush will be remebered as one of the best presidents of the last 50 yrs, remember, Iraq wasn't his only fuck up. Katrina, the economy, the justice dept, 911, Valerie Plame, etc etc. I could go on forever. Bad, Bad President.
Posted by: Keil at November 30, 2008 10:52 PM (uIOO4)
55
"government by and for the people"?
Dream on you "useful idiots".
You turd liberals have done nothing but destroy this Country.
Loser Erik showed his true colors." tens of thousands of civilians"
You moron . The death toll in Chicago is higher than Iraq.
Instead of repeating what some lib turd website tells you to say why don't you read something of truth and merit.
Try National Review. But bring a dictionary. You probably won't understand most of the words.They have more than four letters.
Tell sonny boy what the articles are about because I know he won't understand.
Posted by: mary at November 30, 2008 10:55 PM (rTzLX)
56
There's a policy against swearing here - ramble all you want but watch your mouth. And spare us the sobbing about free speech - instead, start your own blog where you can be as profane as you want.
Another thing - I hope Bob is monitoring IP's to make sure the lefties aren't using multiple handles (as usual). I've seen Lefties so desperate to comment that they've used six of them to try & evade bans.
Posted by: Nine-of-Diamonds at November 30, 2008 10:59 PM (NlHwZ)
57
Mary...
Do we really need a dictionary to define turd?
Maybe you need a thesaurus. It's not a dinosaur.
Posted by: Keil at November 30, 2008 11:01 PM (uIOO4)
58
"Even in the best of times we can't afford to appoint an Affirmative-Action nonentity as president."
Thinking back to the election of 2000, your statement is kinda like the pot calling the kettle black! In this recent election, however, the president wasn't appointed. He was elected. No question about it.
If you were the chief potentate in charge, what would be YOUR "comprehensive economic vision" to get our country out of the current mess that we're in? I can hardly wait to hear about your plan. I'll tune back in tomorrow morning.
Posted by: Dude at November 30, 2008 11:06 PM (byA+E)
59
Mary...
Also, we have killed hundreds of thousands of Iraqi civilians, but Fox won't tell you that. Neither will the National Review. You people need to get a handle on your ideology and learn the facts. They are there for you. They will set you free. They will keep you warm at night.
Posted by: Keil at November 30, 2008 11:20 PM (uIOO4)
60
Regarding death tolls i think that the Chicago soundbite originated during the campaign from one of those Republican shills posing as journalists or pundits. To repeat such a statement as some sort of refutation/justification or accusation is strange. The invasion of Iraq based on false pretense has resulted in the deaths of innocents and American soldiers but that is somehow OK bc in one recent month there were more killing in Chicago than Iraq and obama is from Chicago therefore Bush was right and Iraq is OK so shut up??
Why would anyone be so flippant about murder anywhere, no less using it to justify same?
Posted by: jeff at November 30, 2008 11:33 PM (zIQWN)
61
Keil is correct in broad terms. Since we invaded Iraq the estimates of non-combatant deaths run from over 100,000 to over 1,000,000. Hardly something to be swept under the rug.
Posted by: jeff at November 30, 2008 11:37 PM (zIQWN)
62
Jeff...
I think they all stopped listening.
Posted by: Keil at November 30, 2008 11:40 PM (uIOO4)
63
Jeff...
I think they stopped listening. And I have been spammed.
Posted by: keil at November 30, 2008 11:42 PM (uIOO4)
64
"The name calling is a classic technique used by the right wing wackozoids. It's called "The Straw Man Argument". When they are unable to engage in reasoned discourse, they simply call you names."
I think you are confusing us with one of your Kollege Leftist pals: those whose political ideology is gleaned from a bumper sticker, and whose substance is limited to trite phrases: "Bush Lied..." "No Blood for Oil" "Change that we can...". Etc.
Hey little college boy, run along back to class now . When you have some life experience under your belt, when you actually stop referring to yourself as "dude" and no longer use the phrase "peace out") and have something substantive and factual to contribute, feel free to return. Until then, aren't you late for a bong hit, or a kegger or something?
Posted by: Keith Robertson at November 30, 2008 11:42 PM (IkfIN)
65
Wow Keith...
Pretty substantive.
Posted by: Keil at November 30, 2008 11:44 PM (uIOO4)
66
Ya know Mary or Kell, or Mary-Kell Hope and Change,
Just because you repeat a figure like a mantra (e.g., Hope and Change, Change we can believe in, etc) doesn't make it fact. What is the source of these "hundreds of thousands of civilian casualties" that WE WE caused? Moveon? DU? Kos?
Fact: The cause of the overwhelming majority of civilian casualties are bombs set off by insurgents.
Pesky things, facts.
Posted by: Keith at November 30, 2008 11:47 PM (IkfIN)
67
As for the NYT, every morning I awake in the hopes to read that its HQ has vanished in a small mushroom cloud...
Posted by: Keith at November 30, 2008 11:48 PM (IkfIN)
68
"Thinking back to the election of 2000, your statement is kinda like the pot calling the kettle black! In this recent election, however, the president wasn't appointed"
Hey Dude, I hate to tell ya, but Bush won the 2000 election. I'm sure you don't remember it--you were what---10? After all the recounts, including those by the seditious NYT---hardly conservative hacks, it was shown BY ALL that Bush won Florida. Sorry.
Pesky things, facts.
Posted by: keith at November 30, 2008 11:52 PM (IkfIN)
69
"Straw Man Argument" LOLOL. I just re-read your post. You don't even know what the term means, LOL
Posted by: Keith at November 30, 2008 11:54 PM (IkfIN)
70
Just came back ( I do have a life and work to do ) to remind you that you are not smarter than National Review or Fox and as usual you morons are clueless.
Sorry "dudes" but your facts on how many civilians killed are as ridiculous as the rest of your statements.
Run along to your communist websites and tell them all with pride how you "told" us conservatives.
You sad pathetic bunch of pussies.
Posted by: mary at November 30, 2008 11:56 PM (rTzLX)
71
Keith...
You mean a mantra like: smoke 'em out, stay the course, country first, ongoing investigation? Mantra's of that nature? The ironies of your argument kid of back mine.
The insurgents were an entity of our own making. Can you honestly argue that we have made Iraq a better place than we found it?
Do you think NY deserves another mushroom cloud? You should explain yourself.
Posted by: Keil at November 30, 2008 11:57 PM (uIOO4)
72
Hey Mary...
What are the civilian casulaty figures then???
Hip us commy pussies to your breadth of knowledge.
PS: I am smarter than Fox. I don't read the Review. Then again I don't read Guns and Ammo either.
Posted by: Keil at December 01, 2008 12:00 AM (uIOO4)
73
Keith...
In 2000 the Fla recount was inconclusive. The Supreme Court decided the presidency (see Bush V. Gore). I don't want to tell you guys anything, and there is nothing wrong with an honest dialogue.
Posted by: Keil at December 01, 2008 12:05 AM (uIOO4)
74
It's pretty sad about the kind of public discourse we have on these sites. I liken it to driving a car. You would flip me off in traffic as long as there's some space between us, but if we were in line somewhere together that wouldn't be the case.
We all live in this country together, and while we all want what's best we resort to pettiness. Why is that? I may be your next-door neighbor, how do you know?
My point is that we need to stop all the name calling and have an honest argument about the truths and what we face now and in the future, lest we be deemed to repeat our bloody history.
Posted by: Keil at December 01, 2008 12:12 AM (uIOO4)
75
I will tell you one thing: You and I will not live long enough to see a president of this country launch a pre-emptive war again! They will continue to strike hostiles, but you will not see an Iraq again!
Posted by Ernest Salomon at November 30, 2008 02:56 PM
Odd are we'll see it in the next four years. Eight years, max.
Posted by: George Bruce at December 01, 2008 12:12 AM (xkWCH)
76
I think that the more accurate statement about Fox news and it's related politainment is not that one is smarter than Fox but that one is smarter than those who watch Fox believing that it is a credible source of objective journalism and presents things in a fair and balanced manner. the very fact that the phrase is used at all by anyone claiming to be a journalist raises questions. Why should any serious journalist or journalistic enterprise be at all concerned with being fair and balanced? They are supposed to be objective and dispassionate, which is very often unfair and unbalanced.
Posted by: jeff at December 01, 2008 12:19 AM (zIQWN)
77
Kell,
I DO agree with your last post.
Posted by: keith at December 01, 2008 12:21 AM (IkfIN)
78
If ya'll on The Left would only examine other news outlets with the same level of body-cavity-search and mountain-top standards to which you hold Fox News, alas....
The reason you hate it is because it DARE challenge the paradigm, the stranglehold that The Left has on most of the media. It's the same reason ya'll hate talk radio.
Further, if Fox News and talk radio were ineffective, you would be ignoring it...
Posted by: keith at December 01, 2008 12:27 AM (IkfIN)
79
"Many countries have done just fine without our military intervention, including most of the entire former Soviet eastern block!"
Wow. Just WOW. Soviet pols, generals, admirals and others all have come out and trumpeted in the 90s how our military spent theirs into the ground. They willingly point out that their military was a hollow shell of what they were presenting to the world, and our guys knew it, and their guys knew that our guys knew it. It's been gone over with a fine-toothed comb already by historians.
The threat of our military, and the perceived willingness to use it by Reagan and then Bush, simply took down the Soviet Empire, including allowing its east-European satellites to go their way. Period.
Ask someone from eastern Europe. I don't know that many such people...a grand total of three. One Romanian and two Poles. All three, when speaking of politics and history, take for granted that the US military took down the Soviets AND that this was a wonderful thing that should be celebrated by the entire world.
I don't know if it should be celebrated by the entire world, but I certainly celebrate it, and apparently so do a lot of people in eastern Europe.
And if you look in places other than the alphabet networks, you see story after story of Iraqis who are close to worshipful of American soldiers and culture.
All that said, I think maybe it's time for the US to retire the world stage a bit and work on our own problems for a bit. Not isolationism really, but just a recognition that our efforts aren't appreciated much by a lot of people, including some incredibly ungrateful Americans. It won't take long before someone starts begging us to help them again.
And then, if it's anybody but France, maybe we could consider helping. But I think we should get the request in writing and have it triple-notarized before consideration.
Posted by: Agoraphobic Plumber at December 01, 2008 12:31 AM (x3vvv)
80
IraqBodyCount,Org places the number of documented civilian death due to violence since the 2003 invasion at less than 100,000. In fact, they cite a range of 89,544-97,762.
These estimates, based upon media accounts, are probably high.
We have good reason to suspect this this because sources sympathetic to the insurgency have been documented inflating body counts, and in several documented cases, completely falsified the existence of massacres that never took place. A dozen faked deaths in a massacre here, 20 there, 40 dug up bodies counting as a new massacre there, and we're talking real numbers.
Jeff, do you really want to talk about numbers outside liberal talking points? Here's one for you: 1,000,000. That's the number of estimated Iranian casualties caused by Saddam's invasion and war from 1980-88. Add another 350,000 for Iraqi casualties in that conflict. Several years later, he got another 35,000 Iraqis killed invading Kuwait. But of course, you don't want to discuss that more than 1.3 million dead as the result of his military aggression, so let's look at the numbers you'd rather discuss, of "civilian" deaths.
Saddam was killing 15,000-20,000 Iraqis a year during "peacetime" over the course of his regime. For those of you that are a bit slow on the uptake, that means the number of Iraqi civilians killed by Saddam's regime and our invasion and occupation until this point are a wash, BUT, Saddam is rotting in a grave, as are his sons, and they will never kill any of their fellow citizens again. As conditions continue to normalize and terror attacks and criminal activity continues to decrease, there will be a net gain every year of thousands of people that will remain alive because the bloody regime of Saddam Hussein and his even more sadistic sons are no more.
You want numbers, Jeff, so there they are. Try not to flippantly dismiss the civilian lives saved by invading Iraq.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at December 01, 2008 12:39 AM (HcgFD)
81
Do you think NY deserves another mushroom cloud? You should explain yourself.
You have to love the appeasers, hiding away hoping and praying that their submission will preserve their miserable little lives.
Maybe you should explain how our conversion of Iraq into a early democracy threatens NY. Will Iraq attack us? No? Then who will attack us for displacing Saddam and, through many years of struggle, instituting a reasonable republic in Iraq. Who would that enrage?
Yeah, I know. Better to shake in fear than actually do something.
Posted by: iconoclast at December 01, 2008 12:43 AM (T+mOB)
82
"Can you honestly argue that we have made Iraq a better place than we found it?"
>>>In the long-term? Yes
Read my palm, then. The fact is that there is still more death in that country than there was before we occupied it.
"Do you think NY deserves another mushroom cloud? You should explain yourself."
>>I didn't know it had a first one. And yes, given the lengths to which the NYT undermines this country, I WOULD like to see it vanish in a puff of smoke & flame.
A bomb is a bomb regardless of the shape of cloud it makes. I guess nuance is lost on you.
"What are the civilian casulaty figures then???"
>>>Dunno, what does Daily Kos/DU/Moveon say? That's scripture, after all, right?
Most reputable news orgs. say that the civilian casualty count exceeds 100,000. AP, Reuters, BBC. Sorry, I don't read Kos.
"Hip us commy pussies to your breadth of knowledge."
>>>You said it not me.
Response to another poster. Apparently you feel the same.
"PS: I am smarter than Fox.."
>>>Ah yes, the unbridled arrogance: a signature trait of The Left (aka The Enlightened Ones)
I am above the BS Fox spouts. Also above the BS MSNBC spouts, but I prefer it.
"In 2000 the Fla recount was inconclusive."
>>>B.S. You apparently don't remember your history either. Innumerable recounts were conducted by many entities, including many "news" entities (all desperately hoping to find an Algore victory), and ALL concluded the same thing: Bush Won. Sorry.
Innumerable recounts were stopped by Supreme Court, heavy with conservative loyalists.
" The Supreme Court decided the presidency (see Bush V. Gore)."
>>>B.S. It stopped a SELECTIVE recount of democrat-rich counties.
Stopped LEGAL recount efforts at the behest of Katherine Harris and Tom DeLay.
"A lie told often enough becomes truth” ---Vladimir Lenin
Nice Lennin Quote. Are you trying to use communism against me???
In the end it's all sour grapes. Enjoy your servitude to the prolatariate.
Keil
Posted by: keith at December 1, 2008 12:18 AM
Posted by: Keil at December 01, 2008 12:47 AM (uIOO4)
83
Wow, you people are truly frightening!
First of all, Obama can’t be blamed for ANYTHING that happens in Iraq because it is not his mess. Bush got us here, and he’ll get all the blame, and deservedly so. There will be no praise for victory, because this is not the kind of battle that can actually be “won.” But just for the fun of it, let’s look at the reasons for the war and see if Bush has “won” any of them.
1) WMDs: This was reason number one for the invasion, but there weren’t any. We’ve been there over 5 years and haven’t found ANYTHING. Reason number one: LOST.
2) Ties to 9/11: How much money or support has been proven to have come from Iraq for the 9/11 hijackings? How much support has ever been proven for Hussein even supporting bin Laden? The real evidence has always suggested Hussein to have NO affiliation with al-Qaeda. How many hijackers came from Iraq? 0. How many came from Saudi Arabia, and yet they’ve never been the enemy. How much sense does that make? Reason number two: LOST.
3) To secure freedom for the Iraqi people: Well, they are calling it Operation: Iraqi Freedom now, but only after reasons number one and two were declared busts. The people certainly had a lot to fear in Iraq under Hussein, but the number of people who have died as a result of the war is astronomical compared to the number killed by Hussein. And how are the living conditions there now? We had the oil infrastructure back up and running within DAYS of the initial invasion, but there are still many parts of Iraq that are still without electricity or water as a result of the war and now every citizen has to fear for their lives just going to the grocery store. Reason number three: LOST.
4) The war on terror: Let’s face it people, there was no al-Qaeda in Iraq before the war. NONE WHAT-SO-EVER! But somehow now this is the central front on the war on terror? Only because we invited them in! So where reasons one through three were just crap lies, number four has actually backfired. It has caused the very thing it was supposedly meant to stop. Reason number four: LOST.
Posted by: I can see Russia from here at December 01, 2008 12:48 AM (QiWa2)
84
In explaining my "mushroom cloud" comment: given the lengths to which the seditious, traitorous NYT will go to undermine the security and people of this country, why yes, I DO believe that I would like to see it go up in a puff of smoke & flame.
Posted by: Keith at December 01, 2008 12:51 AM (IkfIN)
85
Iconoclast...
Iraq never threatened us. Saddam was a US tool. F--- appeasment. I want those 911 folks to pay too. The truth is that 19 of those 20+ highjackers were Saudi. Why don't we go after Saudi Arabia? Maybe it's because of the political and financial ties that the Bush's have to those people. Use your brain, man.
Posted by: keil at December 01, 2008 12:55 AM (uIOO4)
86
Sheesh, another one...
Great job of regurgitating the talking points comrade. Did you copy & paste them straight from Kos? I like all the
I am not going to dignify responding to the others, but incase you had not heard, here is some Iraqi yellowcake:
Google: "Iraqi yellowcake and Canada"
As for the rest, it is suggested by many that some of it escaped to Iran & Syria.
Let's assume for a minute, however, that there wasn't any. Well, 1) The UN, the UK, Israel, the IAEA and everyone else believed he had it too. So it ain't just Bush, and he didn't lie. If you wish to state that we were all misled, you MAY have a point.
2) If Saddam didn't have any WMDs, why did he keep acting like he did? Hmmm??? He was acting guilty. Hence #1 above.
But you know these things already, you just deny them because it doesn't fit the template.
Posted by: keith at December 01, 2008 12:59 AM (IkfIN)
87
Confederate:
You scare me.
So you're saying that because Saddam Hussein was a murderous dictator, the United States was justified in invading his country on false pretenses, killing thousands and indirectly leading to the deaths of many more thousands by unleashing sectarian violence (which had been suppressed under Saddam)?
Then explain to me why the United States, under Reagan, Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld and others, supported Saddam for decades? I guess they didn't know he was killing thousands of his countrymen each year. More likely they didn't care.
If the standard for invasion is going to be that we will dispatch our military to take out any brutal dictator, then we can pretty much brace ourselves for constant wars of aggression across the globe for the next half-century. There's your solution, if you want it.
What you war lovers fail to grasp is that there's more than one way to deal with a suspected criminal than lynching. In our country we call it justice, due process. If the United States were to back the International Criminal Court, we could move toward a global society that solves problems -- especially military aggression -- through cooperative legal means instead of weapons. I'll take the force of law over the law of force anytime.
Ask anyone who's fought in one -- war is a bad thing. If we had a general military draft, by which a much wider slice of society was put at risk of fighting in numbskull adventures like this one -- then more people would complain.
Posted by: egcn at December 01, 2008 12:59 AM (hnIi6)
88
Mod,
Can we toss this russia bum? Another Kos infiltrator.
Posted by: Keith at December 01, 2008 01:02 AM (IkfIN)
89
Keith: I made a yellow cake the other day and covered it with chocolate frosting. It was quite delicious. But while we’re googling stuff, try “Downing Street Memo.”
Posted by: I can see Russia from here at December 01, 2008 01:05 AM (QiWa2)
90
Hey "Dude" where do you get 52%? There are over 350 million of "us" the last time I checked. I realize you weren't scared into voting for politics as usual. You were celebrating it with gusto! With those gilded hog rings in your noses, you proudly walked up the shoot to the feeding floor. And like all other domesticated animals, you will enjoy the fattening process "provided" by your "benefactors" oblivious to your upcoming demise. It's to bad that the rest of us have to pay for your feeding frenzy and be slaughtered along with you. Your ignorance is bliss - bless your willfully ignorant hearts!
Posted by: Dave at December 01, 2008 01:06 AM (8JHLb)
91
Keith, can you argue any of my points? I know your type's reaction to a valid argument is to kill the messenger. BTW, never been over to Kos, but thanks for that assumption
Posted by: I can see Russia from here at December 01, 2008 01:07 AM (QiWa2)
92
Keith...
My favorite of yours is the talking points, over and over again, while you directly spout talking points. Yellow cake???
Even folks in the Bush admin vehemently deny any Iraq/yellowcake connection. You live in the past, hoss.
You do, however, have a point with intelligence. I mean, you would if it weren't a lock that intelligence was fixed around an agenda. Condi Rice knows this, so does Colin Powell. Ask them for Christ's sake. What about the Downing Street Memo? Oh yeah, ongoing investigation.
Talking Point: Saddam sent his WMD's to Syria. Ha HA HA HA. Are you Sean Hannity?
Posted by: Keil at December 01, 2008 01:09 AM (uIOO4)
93
There were only about a billion people around the world who opposed the Iraq invasion. Probably only a few hundred million didn't find the WMD evidence compelling. We call these people "rational."
There's a very good reason Saddam occasionally acted like he had WMDs: to frighten his enemies! He might have been a brutal dictator, but he wasn't an idiot. What's better than having a nuclear arsenal? Pretending you have one and having your enemies believe it! Much cheaper.
The IAEA did not believe Saddam had WMDs. They were part of the inspections. The sensible policy espoused by MoveOn before the invasion was "Let the inspections work." If that had been allowed to happen, none of this would have been necessary. As I said at the time, if you think the inspectors are being fooled, demand that 10,000 more be added. It would be a lot cheaper than a war and occupation. I was right. Millions of us were. Bush was wrong. As the Downing Street memo confirmed, the intelligence was was being fixed to the pre-determined conclusion Bush wanted to justify his cowboy diplomacy.
"As for the rest, it is suggested by many that some of it escaped to Iran & Syria."
I love this one. Suggested by whom? And where is it? How many more years should we wait for you to find it? In the meantime, you'll simply choose to believe it's there somewhere, right?
Posted by: egcn at December 01, 2008 01:11 AM (hnIi6)
94
Oh and Keith, you all WERE mislead. But I'll forgive that as America was still angry/confused/bitter because of 9/11. I saw right through the crap but some good people fell for it.
Posted by: I can see Russia from here at December 01, 2008 01:12 AM (QiWa2)
95
To Confederate Yankee,
Sir/Madam,
Are you claiming that Iraq was and is about body count? Did we invade Iraq to save Iraqis from their murderous dictator? He killed more than we might have killed so it is all good?
i should not have let myself get engaged in such a frivolous debate about numbers but the comments on the subject were so sophomoric and inflammatory that i couldn't help but speak up.
that being said, the fact of the matter is this, we invaded Iraq on false pretense. call it lies, manipulation, withholding key intelligence or whatever, but it is incontrovertible that bush and his team manipulated congress and the public into invading. The cost in life and money and respect cannot be justified in anyway, no less saying we are responsible for fewer deaths than Saddam.
Posted by: jeff at December 01, 2008 01:12 AM (zIQWN)
96
"From another perspective, can anyone name a military leader who says a military victory is a possibility?"
General Petraeus. In fact, as he notes in his letter to the troops this past September, he was saying that way back in February 2007. Shocking, right?
http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2008/09/15/world/20080915petraeus-letter.pdf
I don't know whether what he's talking about fits your definition of "military victory", but I'll take it.
Keil:
Are you seriously equating "an insurgency in a country the US invaded kills 100,000" with "the US kills 100,000 in the country it invaded"? And you're using this as a reason to, what, get out of Iraq? But of course, for someone willing to blame Bush for "Katrina, the economy, the justice dept, 911, Valerie Plame, etc etc. I could go on forever," I can see why it makes sense to you that America should bear the brunt of the blame for deaths caused by insurgents.
Al Qaeda and the insurgents aren't going to magically decide to give up on Iraq if we leave. Iraq is not going to magically accelerate its progression towards stability if we tell its government we're getting out.
You also bring up the question of whether or not Iraq is a better place now than it was before the war. I see that as a diversionary question. With perhaps hundreds of thousands of civilians killed by insurgents, Iraq is not better off than it was before. But what country is better off during, or after, a war than before it? Maybe relatively minor police actions like the intervention in Bosnia in the '90s resulted in an improved situation, but that simply doesn't hold up for anything bigger, and it has no bearing on whether or not a war should have been fought, or should continue to be fought. Why even ask the question?
Posted by: Math_Mage at December 01, 2008 01:15 AM (NHJeJ)
97
"You scare me."
>>I don't doubt he does, girly man.
"...violence (which had been suppressed under Saddam)?"
>>But which was replaced with another kind of violence. Don't make him out to be Gandhi, ok?
"Then explain to me why the United States, under Reagan, Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld and others, supported Saddam for decades?"
>>Funny, you forgot one in there. His was the embarassment of 1992 to 2000
"What you war lovers fail to grasp is that there's more than one way to deal with a suspected criminal than lynching. In our country we call it justice, due process. If the United States were to back the International Criminal Court, we could move toward a global society that solves problems -- especially military aggression -- through cooperative legal means instead of weapons. I'll take the force of law over the law of force anytime."
1) having the historical perspective, grasp of human nature and testicular fortitude to recognize that not everyone wants to "play nice", and that some require a good a**-kicking does not make one a war-lover, you peacenik.
2) As for the rest of your drivel, exactly WHO is going to enforce that international law, hmm? Sans enforcement it is a paper tigers. Grow up, will ya?! A justice system without the method to ENFORCE the laws results in....well, the UN.
"Ask anyone who's fought in one -- war is a bad thing."
>>Who argues that? BUt sometimes bad things are necessary. That's life.
"If we had a general military draft, by which a much wider slice of society was put at risk of fighting in numbskull adventures like this one -- then more people would complain."
>>>That is perhaps the most ignorant statement I've ever read. Congratulations. You are obviously ignorant and oblivious to who exactly constitutes our military. LIke Kerry, Obama, and the other elites, you view the military servicefolks as uneducated chattle. Having taught science on military bases for years, I can state with absolute certainty that that is an inconvenient lie.
Thank you for revealing your ignorance to all. You represent your cause well.
Yet another college kid?
Posted by: keith at December 01, 2008 01:16 AM (IkfIN)
98
"Oh and Keith, you all WERE mislead. But I'll forgive that as America was still angry/confused/bitter because of 9/11. I saw right through the crap but some good people fell for it."
Oh wow! I didn't realize we were in the midst of such a towering intellect!!
Posted by: Keith at December 01, 2008 01:18 AM (IkfIN)
99
"Oh and Keith, you all WERE mislead. But I'll forgive that as America was still angry/confused/bitter because of 9/11. I saw right through the crap but some good people fell for it."
Oh wow! I didn't realize we were in the midst of such a towering intellect!!
Posted by: keith at December 01, 2008 01:19 AM (IkfIN)
100
I'm going to turn it back on you, Comrade Russia. Instead of refuting your points, I'm going to ask you to provide references. Give me proof of your talking points, please.
eg, as for your "billion people around the globe" quote, are you serious? Since when does a poll equte to fact or truth? Maria Carey sells millions of CDs, but that doesn't make her talented.
Posted by: keith Robertson at December 01, 2008 01:29 AM (IkfIN)
101
reading all of ur notes, did u know that the v
Vietnam war was started on a lie as was the Iraq war. are both of those presidential policies or us policies. dont take my word for it read.if ur old enough to understand the Iraq war .u will know it was illegal... Russia attacked Georgia... why would a country attack another country without cause...without their leader threatening them ?? i cant understand that , can you? folks .. any irony in that,,,, ??
elections are over , support our president instead of calling him names.. let him get into office and see what he does then vote him out if u don't like him. get over the election. get out of grade school stop calling names.
Posted by: ed at December 01, 2008 01:31 AM (vFAWo)
102
Math...
I tell Ya what (Palin Lovers)
There is no insurgency without an Occupation. When you argue that the insurgency killed people and not the US invasion, as much as you want to call it a "coalition" invation you are absolutely off your nut. Maybe Bush wanted to create a vacuum into which extremists were drawn, but that was not the argument put forth by Bush.
The fact that al Qaeda is in Iraq is a testament to the bungling nature of Bush.
We were LIED into that war. It was a war of choice. Iraq had NOTHING to do with 911. There was no Yellow cake. There were no WMD. When you say that there were you are worse than liars, you are ignorant, and that is why Obama won.
Obama is a great speaker, but he won not only because of what he had to say, but because of the utter and incontrivertable failures of George W. Bush's foriegn policy and Reagan's economic policy. Tell me where it is that I am mistaken.
Posted by: Keil at December 01, 2008 01:34 AM (uIOO4)
103
It may surprise many of you, but in retrospect I am not the biggest fan of the Iraq invasion. I am of Afghanistan, however.
Whether or not it was well-founded or not, the reasons for the Iraq invasion are "in the past". Since ya'll on The Left love to dismiss anything that occurred more than 10 minutes ago as "the past" with statements such as "how can we move forward?" and "let's not dwell..." etc, then you should appreciate that.
So, whether you like it or not, we're there. How do we make the best of a hairy situation? Or aren't you interested in that? Do you just wish to dwell on "the past"? If you on The Left weren't so hell-bend on us LOSING the Iraq conflict, you could just offer a few constructive solutions.
Posted by: keith Robertson at December 01, 2008 01:35 AM (IkfIN)
104
So the answer is, "War, war and more war! War when a country attacks us (which has never happened on actual U.S. soil; Hawaii wasn't a state at the time of the Pearl Harbor attacks, and 9/11 was not an attack by a country)! War when a country might possibly attack us! Support our troops, no matter what they're sent to do!" Hey, no one wants a war, but bad things are necessary.
The problem with that non-reasoning is this war (an unprovoked invasion and occupation in this case) was, by no means, by no one's account and in no conceivable way necessary. It was popular among people with short attention spans and a tendency to think there's an easy answer to solve a problem of violence, and that is, "Apply more violence!"
Calling me names is not exactly refuting my points, good sir. Sleep well.
Posted by: egcn at December 01, 2008 01:36 AM (hnIi6)
105
Keith...
"Say it ain';t so Joe! There ya go again talkin about the past. John McCain and I want to take us into the future..."
-Sarah Palin
Posted by: Keil at December 01, 2008 01:40 AM (uIOO4)
106
You want a solution? When Bush raises the victory banner on the deck of that aircraft carier, we withdraw troops and get the blank out of there. Declare victory. The media wouldv'e bought it, no?
Posted by: Keil at December 01, 2008 01:43 AM (uIOO4)
107
While hearing more from the Saddam wasn't so bad/Bush lied, people died/war for oil/Downing Street Memo/fire can't melt steel crowd is always entertaining, I'm off to bed, and closing comments as a result.
And in closing: Keil, only complete fools buy the historical revisionism of the meaning of the "mission accomplished" banner. It didn't celebrate the end of the war, but the accomplishments of the crew of the carrier the USS Abraham Lincoln (CVN-72), which was a completing a 10-month deployment, the longest carrier deployment since the Vietnam era.
I guess that is what we should expect from the "community-based reality."
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at December 01, 2008 01:43 AM (HcgFD)
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November 29, 2008
Mumbai Attacks Finally Over, It's Time to Examine Our Own Weaknesses
My friend Jose at Barcepundit has been diligently following the latest on the Mumbai terrorist attacks, which now finally seem to to be winding down. The last terrorists appear to have been killed, and the process of putting out fires and recovering any remaining explosives should start winding down in the next 12-24 hours.
Read it all, as there are some major surprises, including claims that same of the attackers were British, and that a concurrent strike at Mumbai's airport was only thwarted by a missed turn.
I'd also strongly suggest reading
Bill Roggio's analysis of the attacks at
Long War Journal.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
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Weaknesses, yes. It is interesting that most foreign lands are essentially one large gun-free zone. America is, in that vital respect, possessed of a significant advantage. Terrorists planning attacks would surely--if they have any real understanding of America--choose soft targets, gun-free zones such as theaters, malls, schools, hospitals, and a variety of other such "sacred" areas throughout the nation (Illinois, New York, California and Wisconsin immediately come to mind).
We are weak in that Islam, far from being a religion of peace, is a religion that, in its holy text (the Koran), not only commands the conquest of the world for Islam, but outlines the specific procedures to be followed in that conquest. That most Muslims around the world do not attempt to carry out these essential tenants of their faith speaks well of their individual decency and humanity, but does not deny the essential nature of their faith.
What does this have to do with terrorism? Muslim terrorists need no direct connection to a central terrorist authority. Their very faith encourages individual jihad such that Americans have already experienced individuals trying to act out this aspect of their religion on the innocent (remember the Muslim who charged through a crowded college campus in a SUV?). Bin Laden need not direct terrorist attacks in America, there are thousands of Muslims in this nation who might well decide to carry out such attacks on their own, and as was obvious in India, a few fanatics with common small arms can wreak substantial havoc.
Our national traditions of arms might well make a response to such madmen more rapid and final, but that will be cold comfort to those killed in Gun-Free zones, relying on the protection offered by small metal signs and the good feelings and positive message they send.
We remain less vulnerable than other nations, but not nearly strong enough. The background of Mr. Obama and his choice for Attorney General do not give assurance of strength in anti-terror policy. If true to form, they would disarm all honest Americans and return America to the wonders of pre-9-11 thinking where terrorists would be waiting in courtrooms behind drunk drivers, shoplifters and other petty criminals for arraignment in courtrooms across the country:
"$300.00 and costs for shoplifting. Next case Baliff?"
"Salim Handani vs the state. Charge is 87 counts of murder, and a bunch of lesser includeds. They're on the charge sheet your honor."
"Thanks Baliff. Mr. Handani, how do you plead to the charges of..."
"Death to America, death to..."
And so it might go.
Posted by: Mike at November 30, 2008 09:45 PM (ouRPc)
2
The seeming reluctance of armed police, first on the scene, to respond effectively to the terror attack is interesting, and something that we should think about as we analyze our own readiness for a similar type of attack in the U.S.
I argue here that at other times in history we were fairly prepared for unpleasant surprises like what occurred in Mumbai, using the historical example of the James-Younger raid on Northfield Minnesota. Cheers.
Posted by: Bob W. at December 01, 2008 03:07 PM (PaV2r)
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November 28, 2008
Greatest Thanksgiving Parade Stunt Ever?
I think so.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
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I give up. What's the big deal there?
Posted by: emdfl at November 28, 2008 08:58 PM (5A34k)
2
I had to look it up 'cause I didn't get it either.
Seems to be a gamer/internet prank of sending a mislabled link to a friend. Upon opening the link, you will be treated to a clip of his '80's video, instead of whatever you thought. So....here you thought you were getting the cartoon, and it turned into a "RickRoll"
Posted by: vin at November 29, 2008 05:52 AM (4GWtm)
3
My college-aged son started laughing and I asked why and he told me it was the biggest rick-roll ever. Fortunately he had explained rick-rolling to me before. The only way anyone can top what Cartoon Network did is to have a rick-roll during Obama's Inauguration speech.
Posted by: MikeM at November 29, 2008 09:00 AM (KTOU7)
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Disrupt the Obama Nation?
ROTFL!
Posted by: vin at November 29, 2008 11:33 AM (4GWtm)
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Yes, the best stunt ever!
I was gonna forward the video to friends and family ... But I think I'm the only one that knows WHY it's funny.

Posted by: DoorHold at November 30, 2008 12:47 PM (cKMGI)
6
I had no idea what a RickRoll was either until I read an explanation here. Rick has a really good attitude about it.
Posted by: Kim Priestap at November 30, 2008 11:39 PM (Nuy9n)
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November 27, 2008
Giving Thanks...
...for their sacrifices and service.
And if you'd like to give thanks to a milbogger deployed
far away from home in a combat zone, you can do so
here.
Happy Thanksgiving, everyone.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
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And a happy Thanksgiving to you and yours. It's been a lovely day here in NC, hasn't it?
Posted by: Robert at November 27, 2008 04:51 PM (LjV4b)
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November 26, 2008
Multiple Terror Attacks Ongoing in Mumbai
The Times of India is reporting multiple terror attacks that have taken place in Mumbai, India this evening. The terrorists appear to be targeting sites popular with Westerners, including luxury hotels, a restaurant, and a train station. Some outlets are claiming that the terrorists were asking specifically where the British and Americans were.
As always, early casualty reports vary wildly and should be taken with a healthy degree of skepticism. That said, the latest figures cited are 80 killed and 250+ wounded, with as many as 40 taken hostage.
The attacks seem crude as far as the weapons and tactics used, with small teams—apparently pairs—using hand grenades and fully-automatic AK-47s, along with at least one significant backpack bomb or similar device that detonated in a taxi, ripping it in half.
As I'm watching this, Fox New television is displaying a still photo of what appears to be security camera footage of a young, clean-shaven man wearing a black tee shirt carrying a folding stock AK with two 30-round magazines taped together to facilitate quick reloading, carrying a blue backpack slung over his shoulder.
The head of India's anti-terrorism squad, Hemant Karkare, is among those killed; it is unclear if he was a target, an unfortunate bystander, or responding to the attacks.
More as this develops.
Update: IBNLive claims that fighting is still on-going at 3 hotels, and that there are seven Westerners among 15 hostages. The attacks apparently began between 10:15-10:30 PM.
A report in Canada's
National Post says the group claiming responsibility is the Islamic Security Force-Indian Mujahedeen. They also claimed responsibility for a serial of bombs in Assam that claimed almost 80 lives.
Update: Based upon what we're seeing filter through various media outlets thus far, the sites selected and the coordination of the attacks suggests a well-planned and researched attack, using a minimum number of terrorists per target, using common and relatively inexpensive military small arms.
They seem to be getting maximum effect in terms of disrupting Mumbai and creating carnage and chaos at the outlay of what seems to be less than two dozen total terrorists and the small arms they carried. I have no idea who the Islamic Security Force-Indian Mujahedeen are, but this strike appears to be the work of professionals with military and intelligence skills.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
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Looks to me that they had to choose soft targets outside of the AO of the American military. It's just too dangerous for them to take on Americans, that gets them killed too quickly. They also have to target civilians, because they know tourists will be unarmed. Shows their basic cowardly nature and stupidity. They probably haven't figured out that they're dead meat already.....just still walking around.
Posted by: Tonto (USA) at November 26, 2008 07:14 PM (Qv1xF)
2
i smell the ISI in all this..... if so, the only thing that will save Pakistan is the fact that they're upwind of India, and that might not matter if the Indians get mad enough.
Posted by: redc1c4 at November 26, 2008 07:17 PM (vLw7K)
3
We have, no doubt, been good, but also lucky in preventing similar attacks in America. A large part of our good fortune is certainly the fact that we've killed thousands of those who would otherwise be hot to trot to kill Americans in America in Iraq and various other foreign hell-holes.
And yes, when--not if--they attack vulnerable places in America, we might be able to stop them a bit earlier than the citizens and authorities in other countries, but no one should have any doubt about what a couple of committed terrorists with automatic weapons and a few hand grenades or other explosives can accomplish in a very short time if they choose their killing grounds wisely. The casualty count in such incidents can easily run into the hundreds.
We should also have no doubt that he who currently occupies the ephemeral Office of the President Elect, when such terrorist atrocities occur, will do his best to respond forcefully, by trying to take firearms out of the hands of honest, capable Americans, and demanding that they show restraint.
Posted by: Mike at November 26, 2008 09:09 PM (ouRPc)
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Your capacity to make the suffering of others All About You is pretty stunning, Mike.
Thoughts and prayers go out to the victims, their families, and the people of India tonight.
Posted by: blucas! at November 26, 2008 09:44 PM (QbhZE)
5
We'll see plenty of leftist apologists for the next couple of days.
Meanwhile, have a great holiday!
Posted by: Americaneocon at November 27, 2008 01:28 AM (7iSwk)
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Thanks to our Political Correctness an open immigration laws there is no telling how many of these peaceful types are within our mist. They work with us , shop with us and when we least expect it they will kill us.
Posted by: Fearless at November 27, 2008 08:49 AM (gm4SH)
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From original post: "The attacks seem crude as far as the weapons and tactics used,"
From the update: "the sites selected and the coordination of the attacks suggests a well-planned and researched attack, using a minimum number of terrorists per target, using common and relatively inexpensive military small arms."
I agree with the second, not with the first. "Simple" and "crude" are not synonymous.
Posted by: wolfwalker at November 27, 2008 08:50 AM (EZ23m)
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If this does have the fingerprints of the ISI over it, what will India do? Heck, what can India do? Go to war with Pakistan, a nuclear power?
India appears to take these repeated attacks by Muslims without lashing out at either their home base in Pakistan or their various home bases in India at mosques/Muslim community. But attacks like this, designed to strike at the economic base of India by frightening foreigners from visiting/doing business there, might change things.
It will be very revealing to see how the Indians deal with the consequences of this vicious and cruel attack.
Posted by: iconoclast at November 27, 2008 12:30 PM (JP1UC)
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Reports from 1030CST lean toward Paki involvement; Indian navy intercepted the delivery-ship on its retreat from Bombay.
Israelis, Americans, British citizens seem to be the objective(s).
Posted by: dad29 at November 27, 2008 12:51 PM (TZ6Xl)
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I certainly hope that we don't torture any survivors. That would be horrible.
Posted by: David at November 28, 2008 03:11 PM (ZgM5r)
11
Radio reports indicate they had inside help, knew the layout better even than some of the hotel workers (and which backdoor was open), and stashed weapons and ammo in advance. That's Beslan style stuff.
Posted by: DirtCrashr at November 28, 2008 07:31 PM (VNM5w)
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"The attacks seem crude as far as the weapons and tactics used..."
This seems accurate to me. The Op planners could be reasonably sure that few or none of these terrorists would survive the operation. You don't send your best men into certain death, you send motivated cannon fodder. The planning and target selection might have been done by thoughtful individuals but the execution of the attack would have been kept very simple, and indeed it was.
This operation is flashy because of the coordinated hits on multiple targets but it is not difficult. The orders to the terrorists would have been very simple, enter building X at such a time, move to your designated position and kill anyone you see. This is the kind of instruction someone with basic weapons skills can carry out. There is no evidence that we have seen yet of highly skilled personnel actually taking part in the wet work.
Posted by: Phil S at November 29, 2008 12:00 PM (Lh/Dp)
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Sad as this is, it serves as a brutal reminder that with Obama in charge, things will not change globally. Terrorism will continue and he has to address that. Let's see what happens and in the meantime, be safe!
Posted by: Left Coast Conservative at December 01, 2008 11:08 PM (05ff4)
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Dead-Tree Media Op-Ed Writer In Favor of Newspaper Bailout
Via Hot Air's headlines comes Kathleen Parker's self-serving idea:
Actively pursuing information through print media and participating in high-level conversations -- even, potentially, blogging -- makes one smarter.
The ISI insists that higher-education reforms aimed at civic literacy are urgently needed. Who could argue otherwise? But historian Rick Shenkman, author of "Just How Stupid Are We?" thinks reform needs to start in high school. His strategy is both poetic (to certain ears) and pragmatic: Require students to read newspapers, and give college freshman weekly quizzes on current events.
Did he say newspapers?! Shenkman even suggests government subsidies for newspaper subscriptions, as well as federal tuition subsidies for students who perform well on civics tests. They could be paid from a special fund created by, say, a "Too Many Stupid Voters Act."
Not only would citizens be smarter, but also newspapers might be saved. Announcements of newsroom cuts, which ultimately hurt quality, have become routine. Just this week, USA Today announced the elimination of about 20 positions, while the Newark Star-Ledger, as it cuts its news staff by 40 percent, lost almost its entire editorial board in a single day.
In his book, Shenkman, founder of George Mason University's History News Network, is tough on everyday Americans. Why, he asks, do we value polls when clearly The People don't know enough to make a reasoned judgment?
Of course, what Parker fails to mention is that The People don't know enough to make a reasoned judgement largely as a result of these same newspapers taking roles as advocates for one political theology instead of acting as unbiased journalists. The public, while underinformed but not nearly as ignorant as today's newroom and editorial board advocacy organizations would like, recognize the naked cheerleading and overt bias of the MSM, and
quit buying their product.
Parker, Shenkman, and others with a stake in todays dying media want to legislate a market for a substandard product. Too bad for them, the People aren't as uneducated as they would like.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
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If you want a bailout, you gots to get in line.
Posted by: AIGGMFORDCHRYSLER at November 26, 2008 10:41 AM (PD1tk)
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A government bailout would make them wards of the government and no longer a free press, a violation of the consitiution. Let em die a slow death.
Posted by: Scrapiron at November 26, 2008 11:49 AM (GAf+S)
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http://www.americancivicliteracy.org/resources/quiz.aspx
The quiz wasn't that tough. I took it cold in 15 minutes and missed three questions - one on Row v Wade, another on the Gettysburg address and one on taxation.
I cannot believe that people casting votes would average 49%. No wonder Obama was elected.
Posted by: arch at November 26, 2008 12:27 PM (VumsQ)
4
I work in health insurance, if The One does get Obamacare approved, will I get a bailout?
Posted by: ConservativeWanderer (formerly C-C-G) at November 26, 2008 06:07 PM (Jqe+A)
5
Scrap - I favor a quick death for them myself.
Posted by: emdfl at November 26, 2008 06:52 PM (a9iVL)
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Starbucks profits are down; I'm waiting for the $6B to prop up the ailing luxury coffee vendor. The country can't afford a disruption of its pricey caffeine supplies or a mob of unemployed disgruntled urban baristas.
Posted by: Zhombre at November 26, 2008 07:10 PM (WfSvm)
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It's only a matter of time before the grateful Obama administration cranks up its rhetoric generator to write an impassioned plea for some form of 'grants' to ensure the survival of the papers that enabled his big political win.
His only executive experience to date has been right along these lines. Through his pal Bill Ayers, he was made chairman of the Chicago Annenberg Challenge, and from that chair Obama doled out almost $150,000,000 in grants. Those funds were supposed to improve the academic performance of Chicago schoolkids, according to the Annenberg Foundation. They didn't - again according to said Foundation - but the records show that many recipients were more like political 'community organizations', and no doubt benefited the sort of machine-building politics that Obama liked to practice in Chicago.
Imagine the machine-building politics that a few billions of taxpayer dollars could create in the hands of the New York Times. The MSM has already paid its dues to the President-elect, now it's time for the rewards.
Posted by: Micropotamus at November 26, 2008 10:40 PM (fuC1N)
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For the past 18 months, I have been selling NYT short. It started at $28 and monday it was below $6. That was the bottom.
Rupert Murdoch has been poaching the life blood - high end advertisements - for the WSJ. About 75% of their revenue comes from ads and the rest from subscriptions. The Ochs & Sulsburger families are dipping into their piggy banks to keep Pinch employed.
Soon, Rupert will make them an offer they can't refuse.
Posted by: arch at November 27, 2008 07:42 AM (gPMC3)
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Of course I think that kids should become smarter, to learn more about current events, etc. The MSM does dominate these things, though, so by choosing which avenues they get their information, you're putting your own bias on it.
Posted by: ew at November 27, 2008 11:32 AM (8z7qO)
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ew:
According to the Intercollegiate Studies Institute (ISI) who conducted the survey, "Television - Including TV News - Dumbs America Down"
http://www.americancivicliteracy.org/2008/major_findings_finding4.html
Political discussions, such as those we have here, are of great value. In addition, ISI is very critical of our educational institutions.
Posted by: arch at November 28, 2008 09:12 AM (gPMC3)
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"Parker, Shenkman, and others with a stake in todays dying media want to legislate a market for a substandard product."
Aside from the fact that that's what ALL the bailouts are about (propping up dismal failures), I imagine this would result in piles of unread newspapers in schoolrooms across the nation.
Lack of knowledge isn't about a lack of access TO knowledge. This idea is destined to fail.
I don't know if this would work, but why not try reporting the news and leaving opinions to the opinion pages? One local paper tries its best to do this (though by using AP et al it often fails). It's the ONLY paper increasing its circulation. Hello? Anybody paying attention?
Posted by: DoorHold at November 30, 2008 01:08 PM (cKMGI)
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November 25, 2008
Somehow, This Benefits Mitt Romney
Drudge is citing a Russian analyst's prediction of the decline and collapse of the United States into regional mini-states:
A leading Russian political analyst has said the economic turmoil in the United States has confirmed his long-held view that the country is heading for collapse, and will divide into separate parts.
Professor Igor Panarin said in an interview with the respected daily IZVESTIA published on Monday: "The dollar is not secured by anything. The country's foreign debt has grown like an avalanche, even though in the early 1980s there was no debt. By 1998, when I first made my prediction, it had exceeded $2 trillion. Now it is more than 11 trillion. This is a pyramid that can only collapse."
The paper said Panarin's dire predictions for the U.S. economy, initially made at an international conference in Australia 10 years ago at a time when the economy appeared strong, have been given more credence by this year's events.
When asked when the U.S. economy would collapse, Panarin said: "It is already collapsing. Due to the financial crisis, three of the largest and oldest five banks on Wall Street have already ceased to exist, and two are barely surviving. Their losses are the biggest in history. Now what we will see is a change in the regulatory system on a global financial scale: America will no longer be the world's financial regulator."
When asked who would replace the U.S. in regulating world markets, he said: "Two countries could assume this role: China, with its vast reserves, and Russia, which could play the role of a regulator in Eurasia."
Asked why he expected the U.S. to break up into separate parts, he said: "A whole range of reasons. Firstly, the financial problems in the U.S. will get worse. Millions of citizens there have lost their savings. Prices and unemployment are on the rise. General Motors and Ford are on the verge of collapse, and this means that whole cities will be left without work. Governors are already insistently demanding money from the federal center. Dissatisfaction is growing, and at the moment it is only being held back by the elections and the hope that Obama can work miracles. But by spring, it will be clear that there are no miracles."
He also cited the "vulnerable political setup", "lack of unified national laws", and "divisions among the elite, which have become clear in these crisis conditions."
He predicted that the U.S. will break up into six parts - the Pacific coast, with its growing Chinese population; the South, with its Hispanics; Texas, where independence movements are on the rise; the Atlantic coast, with its distinct and separate mentality; five of the poorer central states with their large Native American populations; and the northern states, where the influence from Canada is strong.
He even suggested that "we could claim Alaska - it was only granted on lease, after all." Panarin, 60, is a professor at the Diplomatic Academy of the Russian Ministry of Foreign Affairs, and has authored several books on information warfare.
Developing...
Somehow, I think Panarin's speciality of information warfare is more on display here than his grasp of American laws or global economics. If we go down as he fantasizes, Russia and China, with growing but far less impressive economies, would experience a collapse harder even than our own with far fewer capabilities to rebound due to their stifling economic systems. Oops.
The bright side, of course, as I alluded to in the headline is that this does mean Mitt Romney is once again poised to take advantage of this in his Presidential bid, this time apparently as a Presidential candidate of the United Northern States and/or the Eastern United States, depending on how the boundaries are drawn. Doesn't that double his odds?
That said, I must add that historically, the lower Atlantic States and the northern Atlantic states haven't shared that " distinct and separate mentality" as often as Comrade Pararin seems to think. As I recall, something of a dustup occurred in the 1860s as a result.
OH... and as far as the northern states.... are even Canadians really strongly influenced by Canada?
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
04:19 PM
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This comes around every generation.
I've still got a copy of "The Nine Nations of North America" around here somewhere from The early eighties.
Posted by: georgeh at November 25, 2008 04:47 PM (1tw+N)
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We actually are a collection of different nations. That is what our Southern forefathers tried to tell the idiotic Yankees. Only this time I have to agree with the Russian. We are in an economic crisis that is only mirrored by the financial panic of the 1800's. Our country is broke and debt bound. Our politicians have assured their rise to class and race warfare and prejudices. In short, we are ripe for division. My thoughts on this are that it can't happen soon enough.
Posted by: David Caskey at November 25, 2008 06:09 PM (ZgM5r)
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"and the northern states, where the influence from Canada is strong"
clueless. simply clueless.
Posted by: DIAF at November 25, 2008 07:17 PM (M+Vfm)
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Hitler also predicted privately that the US would break up, it being inherently unstable.
Posted by: Bleepless at November 25, 2008 08:48 PM (tgRmx)
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I suspect the "Atlantic states" would have a southern border of Virginia or Maryland.
Posted by: MikeM at November 25, 2008 10:45 PM (KTOU7)
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Of course comrade Igor is absolutely correct. Any Canadian can tell you that we've long had a strong influence on our puny southern neighbour. Just look at the lengthy list of exports we've sent you to satisfy your hunger for talent: Celine, Peter Jennings, Gordon Lightfoot, Neil Young, Wayne Gretzky ... etc, etc. We've been secretly preparing to take over the US for decades now ... infiltrating your culture with our icons as we slowly seize control on the levers of power.
Damn that Igor. He had to go spill the beans.
Posted by: Justacanuck at November 26, 2008 01:25 AM (zaK7j)
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Academics (in any country) rarely have any concept of how the real world actually works -- they live in theoretical space and time. This guy sounds like he is spouting old Soviet rhetoric.
Marxism predicted that capitalism was "doomed to fail", but look what ideology got discredited first...and look what country disintegrated first.
The US has survived its own catastrophic civil war, its participation in countless foreign wars, the Great Depression, the social upheavals of the 1960s, September 11, and countless other domestic nonsense. Somehow, we have figured out how to work things out for ourselves. Unless we've all become paralyzed from the neck up, we'll bounce back from our current economic and political issues as well.
Posted by: Mark Turner at November 26, 2008 05:43 AM (GZ69x)
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I agree this fellow sounds like a Soviet theorist recycling the old "We Will Bury You" Khrushchev-era propaganda. It's wishful thinking on his part: yeah, good luck with that one, pal.
That said, every time I look at a post-election map, I can't help but be struck by the same old red-state versus blue-state contrasts, where the more urban areas are blue and the more rural/small town folks are red. Take a gander at the 2008 county-by-county maps and the same contrast is back again, except the blue cancer is now spreading to red states too, with blue cities speckled against the red countryside.
Perhaps a split into "Urbania" and "Heartland" is an idea whose time has come? Unshackled by the urban-centric welfare programs and other government handouts (hopefully banned in "Heartland"), I'd imagine the "Heartland" GDP would outstrip "Urbania's" by oh, 10-1 in a decade or two. Let the blue states go bankrupt via handouts if they wish.
As Jefferson said, "A little revolution now and then is a good thing."
Posted by: W-K-B at November 26, 2008 12:16 PM (StvZq)
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Northern border states are actually quite influenced by Canada. Clueless? Not.
Posted by: Mark at November 26, 2008 05:21 PM (s3Zq6)
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"Northern border states are actually quite influenced by Canada."
Yes, we all know how popular Canadian cuisine is in Seattle, Minneapolis, Detroit and Buffalo.
Posted by: Gary Rosen at November 27, 2008 04:31 PM (mB/JC)
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and in the Republic of Texas, does that mean four more years of Bush?
Posted by: Willie at November 28, 2008 04:16 PM (9SBja)
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Please, take California...you can start with Beverly Hills - nobody really wants Berkeley.
But seriously you've got to be kidding, Canada has "strong influences" eh???
Posted by: DirtCrashr at November 28, 2008 07:35 PM (VNM5w)
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Actually, this is a case of projection by the dear Professor. Let's turn the tables:
"Asked why he expected Russia to break up into separate parts, he said: "A whole range of reasons. Firstly, the financial problems in Russia will get worse as oil collapses. Millions of citizens there have lost their savings and will get a bullet in the head if they complain about it. Prices and unemployment are on the rise. [Name any Russian non-mafia company] is on the verge of collapse, and this means that whole cities will be left without work, also without people as Russia has the lowest birth rate in the world, universal male alcoholism, and an alarming brain drain. Governors are already insistently demanding money from the federal center. Dissatisfaction is growing, and at the moment it is only being held back by sham elections and the hope that Putin can work miracles. But by spring, it will be clear that there are no miracles."
He also cited the "vulnerable political setup", "lack of unified national laws", and "divisions among the elite, which have become clear in these crisis conditions."
He predicted that Russia will break up into smaller parts, with Siberia being absorbed in to resurgent China. St. Petersburg, where the influence from Sweden is strong, might survive as a Russian city state.
Posted by: Ed Joyce at November 30, 2008 02:09 AM (UThYX)
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"The paper said Panarin's dire predictions for the U.S. economy, initially made at an international conference in Australia 10 years ago ..."
Wow, he knew this would happen TEN YEARS ago! The guy's freakin' brilliant.
Like ya'll have been saying; He's unaware of how the U.S. (and the world's) economy actually works (not surprising for a Russian political analyst), and spouting thoroughly discredited old school propaganda ("We will crush you!").
Posted by: DoorHold at November 30, 2008 01:21 PM (cKMGI)
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Six Months Under The Gun
"Be nice. Be Polite. Have a plan to kill everyone you see."
Been there. Done that.
Carrying a weapon now, come to think of it.
Update: And while I didn't read this in advance of my experiment,
every word holds true:
There is nothing like having your finger on the trigger of a gun to reveal who you really are. Life or death in one twitch — ultimate decision, with the ultimate price for carelessness or bad choices.
It is a kind of acid test, an initiation, to know that there is lethal force in your hand and all the complexities and ambiguities of moral choice have fined down to a single action: fire or not?
In truth, we are called upon to make life-or-death choices more often than we generally realize. Every political choice ultimately reduces to a choice about when and how to use lethal force, because the threat of lethal force is what makes politics and law more than a game out of which anyone could opt at any time.
But most of our life-and-death choices are abstract; their costs are diffused and distant. We are insulated from those costs by layers of institutions we have created to specialize in controlled violence (police, prisons, armies) and to direct that violence (legislatures, courts). As such, the lessons those choices teach seldom become personal to most of us.
Nothing most of us will ever do combines the moral weight of life-or-death choice with the concrete immediacy of the moment as thoroughly as the conscious handling of instruments deliberately designed to kill. As such, there are lessons both merciless and priceless to be learned from bearing arms — lessons which are not merely instructive to the intellect but transformative of one's whole emotional, reflexive, and moral character.
The first and most important of these lessons is this: it all comes down to you.
No one's finger is on the trigger but your own. All the talk-talk in your head, all the emotions in your heart, all the experiences of your past — these things may inform your choice, but they can't move your finger. All the socialization and rationalization and justification in the world, all the approval or disapproval of your neighbors — none of these things can pull the trigger either. They can change how you feel about the choice, but only you can actually make the choice. Only you. Only here. Only now. Fire, or not?
A second is this: never count on being able to undo your choices.
If you shoot someone through the heart, dead is dead. You can't take it back. There are no do-overs. Real choice is like that; you make it, you live with it — or die with it.
A third lesson is this: the universe doesn't care about motives.
If your gun has an accidental discharge while pointed an unsafe direction, the bullet will kill just as dead as if you had been aiming the shot. I didn't mean to may persuade others that you are less likely to repeat a behavior, but it won't bring a corpse back to life.
These are hard lessons, but necessary ones. Stated, in print, they may seem trivial or obvious. But ethical maturity consists, in significant part, of knowing these things — not merely at the level of intellect but at the level of emotion, experience and reflex. And nothing teaches these things like repeated confrontation with life-or-death choices in grave knowledge of the consequences of failure.
There's a certain kind of freedom that comes with the responsibility of carrying arms that is hard to properly express to those who don't. People who have done so have tried to tell me that before, but it isn't something that translates easily to print. Yes, guns can take lives.
But far more often, experience truly bearing arms help hone and reveal character.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
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You've hit it on the head. Citizens who carry are not right-wing nutjobs, but rather they're among our country's most responsible citizens who are fully aware they are shouldering great responsibility. I'm biased, of course, as I've concealed carry for over 5 years now, but one cannot argue the truth of your words.
(PS - For the summer months and light clothing, I greatly enjoyed carrying -- and recommend -- the Ruger LCP).
Posted by: W-K-B at November 25, 2008 08:40 AM (6DvsC)
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Sounds a lot like the speech from the movie Starship Troopers given by Michael Ironside. I don't remember if there was such a speech in the book. Violence or the threat thereof is truly the root of all authority, whether we like to admit it or not.
Guns are, as you said, a huge responsibility, and my Father always taught me that you cannot call the bullet back once it is fired. He also said never point a gun at something or someone unless your intent is to completely destroy it or them because that is a very real consequence of the weapon discharging voluntarily or involuntarily. Even if your intent is to merely wound you may hit an artery or miss and hit something else vital and that person is surely as dead as if you meant for them to die.
I plan on having my wife go through NRA pistol training which I will also go through with her as part of her owning her own handgun.
Posted by: Scott at November 25, 2008 10:36 AM (FaCaW)
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Interesting, the 6-month experiment. I've often wondered what it would be like to be able to carry a gun for self-defense. Living in NJ, it won't happen, but maybe some day I'll get out of here.
But it comforts me to know that somewhere in the nation, another responsible, law-abiding citizen is proving what we already know. Citizens carry and use weapons responsibly, in defense of themselves and others.
Posted by: Mike Gray at November 25, 2008 11:27 AM (XiVKO)
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[...] Seat belts, helmets and guns [...]
Good article and valuable information. Thanks for posting it.
Posted by: Ride Fast at November 25, 2008 12:01 PM (heBQv)
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When I had a collateral duty in firearms training, I told people that if they did not hold a heightened sense of awareness when carrying, then they ought not carry.
Non and anti-gunners do not realize that CCW holders make it safer for all of us - in jurisdictions which allow it. They make it harder for two legged predators to select victims.
Posted by: Steve Skubinna at November 25, 2008 12:47 PM (Vcyz0)
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I found the transition from not carrying to daily carry rather easy. Two reasons:
1. Long before I even considered a gun for personal protection, I made sure I was always aware of my surroundings and what was going on around me. Even though I had never heard of Jeff Cooper back then, I was already living most of my time in "Code Yellow", so adding a gun just meant I had another option to me if I needed it.
2. My office doesn't have a policy against firearms on the premises (I read and re-read the employee handbook just to be sure), so I carry a Kel-Tec P3AT and an extra mag in the front of my khakis all day long. It's lightweight and unnoticeable, but I have 14 rounds of .380ACP with me if anything goes south.
Posted by: Exurbankevin at November 25, 2008 04:22 PM (toqoX)
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Never pull a weapon unless you fully intend to use it. If you take the safety off/cock it then you shoot right then, No second thoughts, they will get you killed. A lesson from my father over 50 years ago.
Posted by: Scrapiron at November 25, 2008 06:02 PM (GAf+S)
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Good stuff, Bob.
What range do you go to?
Posted by: Russ at November 26, 2008 03:37 AM (5fmXL)
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W-K-B, I see the LCP has a recall active. Check the Ruger website. It does look like a nice CC weapon.
Great post.
Posted by: douglas at November 26, 2008 06:09 AM (20QoQ)
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Russ,
I got to the Wake County Firearms Education Training Center, hidden down a backroad in Holly Springs, NC. It features modern indoor ranges and classrooms primarily built for law enforcement, but with several weekday nights and weekend afternoons open to the public. If you like specific targets however (I like the 24 x 45" Silhouettes used by the North Carolina Justice Academy), you may want to bring your own, as their selection is limited.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at November 26, 2008 08:56 AM (HcgFD)
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Thanks Douglas...yes, Ruger recalled the LCP after receiving a few reports of the weapon firing when it was dropped; they're apparently retooling the weapon with new parts to prevent such incidents. I signed up for the recall shortly after they announced it.
I still like the LCP, though. It's hard to beat for concealability and far better and more solid than the flimsy Kel-Tec models that inspired it.
Posted by: W-K-B at November 26, 2008 10:50 AM (StvZq)
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Bob, I live just a couple miles from there, and have been there often (though not so much, recently), mostly for the 100-yard rifle bay.
Posted by: Russ at November 26, 2008 01:02 PM (5fmXL)
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November 24, 2008
Aim Small, Miss Small
Michael Ledeen notes that a force of 250 insurgents ambushed a column of 30 Marines in Bala Baluk, Afghanistan.
It was a massacre:
"The biggest thing to take from that day is what Marines can accomplish when they're given the opportunity to fight," the sniper said. "A small group of Marines met a numerically superior force and embarrassed them in their own backyard. The insurgents told the townspeople that they were stronger than the Americans, and that day we showed them they were wrong."
During the battle, the designated marksman single handedly thwarted a company-sized enemy RPG and machinegun ambush by reportedly killing 20 enemy fighters with his devastatingly accurate precision fire. He selflessly exposed himself time and again to intense enemy fire during a critical point in the eight-hour battle for Shewan in order to kill any enemy combatants who attempted to engage or maneuver on the Marines in the kill zone. What made his actions even more impressive was the fact that he didn't miss any shots, despite the enemies' rounds impacting within a foot of his fighting position.
"I was in my own little world," the young corporal said. "I wasn't even aware of a lot of the rounds impacting near my position, because I was concentrating so hard on making sure my rounds were on target."
After calling for close-air support, the small group of Marines pushed forward and broke the enemies' spirit as many of them dropped their weapons and fled the battlefield. At the end of the battle, the Marines had reduced an enemy stronghold, killed more than 50 insurgents and wounded several more.
20 shots. 20 kills.
Carlos Hathcock, who famously fought a five-day engagement with a company of Vietcong, would have been proud.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
08:04 PM
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Greetings:
A lot of people are familiar with the military axiom, "Find 'em, fix 'em, finish 'em.
A few are familiar with its corollary, "Let 'em find you, fix 'em, finish 'em."
A lucky few.
Posted by: 11B40 at November 24, 2008 08:30 PM (eqcri)
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Sure glad the young Marine is on our side. Retired E-8.
Posted by: Scrapiron at November 24, 2008 09:51 PM (GAf+S)
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Sergeant York lives... and God is with the USA army.
Praise the Lord.
Posted by: laura at November 24, 2008 10:15 PM (tdrxf)
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The CPL is assigned to 2nd Battalion, 7th Marines (out of 29 Palms, CA)...I was assigned to them from 95-97. I know who the CO is (was a Capt during the time frame I was there with them)...Probably a Navy Cross or Silver Star for his actions is in the works...
Young man wrote another chapter in Marine Corps History...
Posted by: fmfnavydoc at November 24, 2008 11:18 PM (gxcKe)
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he's an E-4..... he'll get a Combat Action Ribbon and CQ duty next time he's in the rear. someone with higher rank will get the higher award "for leading the troops".
/RHIP
Posted by: redc1c4 at November 25, 2008 02:29 AM (vLw7K)
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"Oswald was a fag."
- McManus(The Usual Suspects)
Posted by: BohicaTwentyTwo at November 25, 2008 08:23 AM (oC8nQ)
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This guy was a designated marksman, not a sniper, so he was more like Sgt. York than Carlos Hathcock.Most likely he had an M-14 with a scope. Shows you what one man can do who keeps his head and knows how to shoot.
Posted by: Joe Hooker at November 25, 2008 09:16 AM (x4BPR)
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ENOUGH!
I am not a financial whiz, and have never claimed to be one, but I'm getting sick and tired of footing the bill for those who claim to be financial experts, and who have doomed their companies through mismanagement, poor risk management, and greed.
Citigroup—the same group that
conspired with ACORN to provide home loans to illegal aliens—becomes the latest parasite to feed from the public jugular. And make no mistake, dear reader; when the newspapers say that "the federal government" is stepping in to bail out these banks, what they actually mean is that self-interested professional politicians in both parties have decided that they will stick
you with the bill for Citigroup's greed and bad business decisions.
Our money. The stuff we earn through our labor, that we carefully invest in improving our homes, that we save for our retirement, that we scrimp and save for our childrens' college education, is being spent by wealthy and corrupt Congressmen and Senators to cover-up the multi-billion-dollar mistakes of their their wealthy and corrupt campaign contributors. It's all about them, and they're telling you that it is your best interests to pay their bills.
Bullsh*t.
How much more are you going to take, my fellow Americans? How much more of your money are you going to let politicians take? How much more debt are you willing to let them pile onto the backs of your children?
Where do you draw the line and tell them,
not one more dime.
And what are you willing to do to make them stop.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
11:22 AM
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Someone needs to teach the meaning of "metaphor" to many of our fellow citizens. See, when Ford dies... it doesn't really "die". No one "dies" as the company was never alive. These terms are metaphorical ones for bankruptcy, insolvency, going out of business (although even that last seems to be nearly a thing of the past). At the least let us give some time for the natural predators and scavengers of the economy to acquire/merge some of the stupidity into the rearview mirror. It must be acknowledged that Bush set the precedent for this crap with the moronic "stimulus". Since people remember getting $300 checks in the mail with some fondness EVERYTHING is now called "stimulus" and who can disagree? The end will come only when assets, debts and circulating currency are inflated down to manageable levels. This can occur quickly or less so. One can support the bailouts in the theory of the qicker the better but that is the only beneficial scenario these lunatic transfers can achieve. Stop Bailing! Stop NOW! Stop them ALL!
Posted by: megapotamus at November 24, 2008 11:52 AM (LF+qW)
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I'm with you. The other thing that is happening is that states (mostly red) that have actualy been financialy responsible will have to bail out California and New York. Also, there are taxpayers and states that have profitable auto companies, (Tenn. Al.) like Honda and Toyota that will have to help provide financial assistance to their competitors. How does that work? These are strange times indeed, and like my grandfather use to say to FDR "keep the government out of business".
Posted by: bman at November 24, 2008 11:55 AM (Vxobz)
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Isn't this the same Citigroup that makes a mint of money off credit cards?
Posted by: Georg Felis at November 24, 2008 12:02 PM (H0Orl)
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The sad part is, we put our financial livelihood into the hands of career politicians who have no background in economics and have not demonstrated that they can even balance the U.S. Government's checkbook.
Perhaps we should rely on them for marriage counseling, home repairs, and retirement planning too.
Posted by: Mike Gray at November 24, 2008 02:20 PM (XiVKO)
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I was for the bailout of mortgages, because it was the government who forced the banks to make risky loans, and there wasn't anything they could do. Make a law that they have to follow, and the responsibility was the governments. Bailout needed.
Now, because your execs messed up on their tea leaves you don't have any money to invest? Somehow my pity reserve has dried up. Their choice, no bailout.
Posted by: Jay in Ames at November 24, 2008 05:13 PM (UEEex)
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Just wait till we bail-out big Pharmaceutical, then the stinky stuff will really start hittin' the fan.
The next Admin is committed to bailing-out stem-cell researchers and their mega-million Institutes - it's welfare for Nobel Prize winners.
Posted by: DirtCrashr at November 24, 2008 07:49 PM (VNM5w)
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Seems to me we can solve this problem and fix social security at the same time. For every dollar of income tax I pay this year, I'm expecting the Federal government to allocate shares of Citibank, BofA, Wells Fargo and every other financial and automotive firm that receives Federal assistance. Let's not call it a bailout; let's call it a Federally-administered IPO!
Imagine the benefit of the conversion of Federal assistance for national equity, giving even the least among us an interest in monitoring their investment portfolio and seeing the value of their shares grow.
I'm waiting for my distribution, aren't you?
Posted by: HatlessHessian at November 24, 2008 08:57 PM (3/V8w)
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Yep! But remember, people always reap what they sow. They won't listen to us. And when they've taxed US into the poor house... because the GOVERNMENT destroyed our economy and stole ALL OUR WEALTH from us in so doing all they've done...
when this nation falls apart because we say "Enough is enough!!"... that's when they'll get their just reward.
We're going to reject their federalism and States are going to Sovereignly secede by the 10th Amendment.
"The Tenth Amendment is the foundation of the Constitution."
- Thomas Jefferson
I'm telling ya... they are cruising for the ultimate bruising: dissolution of the USA like what happened to the USSR.
Posted by: laura at November 24, 2008 10:08 PM (tdrxf)
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What is exactly wrong, per se, of allowing the companies to fiend for themselves? I guess the illuminati will (for the forseeable future)be a strong force that will be allowed the luxury of getting what they want done.
Posted by: ew at November 27, 2008 11:36 AM (8z7qO)
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Isn't redistributing wealth good for everybody? Didn't 53% of the voters agree with that statement? Personally, I can't wait for MY free stuff!
BTW, I keep missing the explanation of where all that bail-out money's supposed to be found in the first place.
Posted by: DoorHold at November 30, 2008 01:35 PM (cKMGI)
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A Bird In Hand
While roughly 6,600 of us have concealed carry permits here in Wake County, none were around yesterday when Fred Ervin robbed a BP gas station and then crossed the street to carjack a woman loading groceries into her car. When Ervin attacked Irene Moorman Bailey to get her keys, other shoppers who stepped in to stop the assault were forced to resort to fowl play:
"The lady was being beaten on the ground. She was lying on the ground and the guy was on top of her – physically hitting her," shopper Randy Owens said.
Bystanders intervened and hit the man in the head with a frozen turkey that Bailey bought, police said.
"I was just grocery shopping, like any other day, and I happened to come out and I saw all this chaos that just had happened," shopper Leanne Sweet said.
"Several people interceded and tried to get him away from her," Owens said.
The man managed to get into Bailey's 2001 Nissan Maxima and hit five other cars while escaping from the parking lot, officers said.
"He backed across and he hit the Cadillac and our car, and hit another car that was parked," Owens said.
"My bumper's cracked and the whole side is dented in," Sweet said.
Officers found Fred Ervin, 30, in Bailey's car, Fuquay-Varina police said. Ervin was taken to WakeMed with a serious head wound. He was listed in fair condition Sunday evening.
When Ervin is released, police said he will face these charges: assault with a deadly weapon with intent to kill, assault with a deadly weapon inflicting serious injury, robbery, driving with a revoked license, hit and run and larceny.
I love my peeps.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
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I hope they decide to add a nice federal carjacking charge on top of it all, so he's cooped up for a looong time.
Posted by: Tim at November 24, 2008 09:10 AM (sp1sQ)
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You can have my cold, dead poultry when you pry it from my, uh -- cold, clammy hands?
Posted by: RNB at November 24, 2008 10:13 AM (fe/Mk)
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Obviously this only underscores the urgent need for the immediate registration of all Assault Turkeys. This tragedy could have been easily avoided if this deadly weapon had been properly restrained with a Giblet-Lock, or if the Federally Mandated six day waiting period for the purchase of Federally Restricted Fowl had been in place.
Posted by: Georg Felis at November 24, 2008 11:28 AM (H0Orl)
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Remember Georg, if we outlaw turkeys, only outlaws would have turkeys.
By the way, I am pro 2nd Admwndment, but that paraphrased sentence is the dumbest thing pur side has come up with.
Posted by: David at November 24, 2008 04:57 PM (0+8YY)
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If the state had not banned semi-auto turkeys he would have never gotten away in the first place. Those single shot turkeys are just too slow and inefficient for adequate personal defense.
Posted by: DC at November 24, 2008 06:28 PM (xGZ+b)
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November 23, 2008
Two Gunned Down in Seattle-Area Mall
One man is dead and another is wounded in what may be a gang-related confrontation:
Shots erupted in a packed Seattle-area shopping mall Saturday after an apparent argument between a gunman and two other young men, killing one of the men, creating panic among shoppers and sending police on a store-to-store search for the shooter, authorities said.
The Southcenter Mall in Tukwila was locked down for six hours as police tried in vain to find the gunman. Officer Mike Murphy, a police spokesman, told The Associated Press there were "thousands" of shoppers at the mall when the shooting took place just before 3:45 p.m. He said the gunfire may have been gang-related.
"It's a possibility," Murphy said.
The two injured men were taken to Seattle's Harborview Medical Center, where one of them died. A hospital spokesman said Saturday night the second victim was in critical condition.
The gunman used a pistol and fired multiple shots, Murphy said. He said at least four or five people were detained for questioning, but none of them was the shooter and some had been released. He said some of those detained were witnesses.
My advice remains the same as it was after the Omaha, Nebraska Mall shooting roughly this same time last year.
- Get in.
- Get low.
- Get out.
- Keep moving.
The odds of getting shot in a mall shooting are extremely low, but you can reduce those odds even further by being in a self-aware, ready state (
yellow, for Jeff Cooper disciples) and take these common sense steps if you hear or see a similar violent situation developing. There's no need to be paranoid, but after so many events like this in recent years, it is immature to pretend that such events can't happen.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
10:26 AM
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1
These events can and will happen, the BEST thing to do is carry a gun yourself. Concealed Weapons Permits is the only self-defense against a person who is capable of firing shots in a public mall.
Posted by: Clay at November 23, 2008 11:05 AM (KFEe7)
2
Anti-gun rhetoric in 3...2...
Posted by: ConservativeWanderer (formerly C-C-G) at November 23, 2008 03:45 PM (Jqe+A)
3
This shooting looks more and more like gang violence. The two that were shot were juvie criminals--one had just gotten out of jail, the other was going in on Monday for trial on a burglary charge. They are still looking for the shooter.
This particular mall appears to have a lot of gang-bangers and related violence occur there. I won't go there any longer--too many scumbags there.
Posted by: iconoclast at November 23, 2008 05:58 PM (JP1UC)
4
if you live in a repressive society, such as California, always be aware of where the nearest dry chemical fire extinguisher is......
the powder has a longer reach then pepper spray, and strikes with more force. not only that, but although some people are pepper resistant, *no one* can inhale the powder and function.
besides that, you can whack the bejesus out of them with the canister while they're pawing at their eyes and coughing their lungs out.
Posted by: redc1c4 at November 23, 2008 09:38 PM (vLw7K)
5
Now, exactly, what have increasingly repressive "gun laws" done for us in this situation? To quote a friend: "When seconds are vital, cops are minutes away". Get a gun, learn to use it, get a permit to carry it.....and do so.
Posted by: Tonto (USA) at November 23, 2008 09:46 PM (Qv1xF)
6
Well, this situation was more of a gang-violence/escalating confrontation scenario. The danger here was getting hit by a stray bullet. The situation might have been made better by an armed citizen, but I don't know about that. If the shooter just walked away without threatening anyone else, I would not have done anything more than call the police. My pistol is for personal defense of my life and other lives. Not going on the offense and doing the job of the police.
The wild rounds problem happened in an earlier Seattle shooting It was Halloween and occurred during a parking lot argument between a young man and a couple. The guy of the couple--a felon, btw--pulled out a gun and shot ~8 times at the single guy. Got him once in the groin...he is doing ok I understand. The dumb s**t managed to shoot his girlfriend in the head and she is, I understand, in a permanent vegetative state.
.
Posted by: iconoclast at November 23, 2008 11:33 PM (JP1UC)
7
This particular mall appears to have a lot of gang-bangers and related violence occur there. I won't go there any longer--too many scumbags there.
Posted by: domxoz at November 30, 2008 09:43 AM (l58hg)
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November 22, 2008
Victory In Iraq Day
The Iraq Wars are over, and we have won.
Let me say that again.
WE HAVE WON THE IRAQ WARS.
And yes, I do mean to use the plural, as we have, along with our allies,
won three intertwined wars:
Despite a loathing by the media to declare it such, the Iraq wars are effectively over, and we won. The first war was the second invasion of Iraq where U.S. conventional forces deposed Saddam Hussein, killed his heirs, and defeated his military in 2003. We won that one quickly. The second war, an asymmetrical conflict with al Qaeda in Iraq and other Sunni insurgent groups, emerged from the rubble of the conventional conflict as a media war, where seemingly random IED strikes and vicious terrorist bombings that killed dozens at a time sought to create chaos and defeat the U.S and Iraqi will to win.
I hasten to add that this war was in many ways effective, turning the majority of Americans against the conflict and a President who refused to surrender to terrorism. Despite some serious political and military mistakes, new U.S. counterinsurgency doctrine combined with a Sunni rebellion known as the Awakening Movement to stomp out or co-opt the last significant vestiges of the insurgency. Together as allies, Americans and Iraqis have won this war as well. What remains are isolated terrorists committing regrettable and ultimately pointless attacks of violence that can no longer significantly influence the course of history.
The third war, fought concurrently with the Sunni insurgency, was a proxy war pitting the Shia government and it's coalition backers against EFP-equipped, Iranian-trained Shia militias for the control of Iraq's Shia majority. This was won earlier this year when Iraqi forces commanded by the Prime Minister and backed by American units stormed de facto Iranian strongholds throughout southern Iraq, killing or capturing hundreds of pro-Iranian militiamen and effectively neutering Muqtada al Sadr's Medhi Army.
Like all counterinsurgencies, we couldn't easily see at the time when these foes were effectively finished as a long-term threat, but with the benefit of hindsight and ever-dwindling casualty figures for all sides, it is obvious that the war Barack Obama and his fellow Democrats tried so hard to lose in Congress was won in the sands of al Anbar, the slums of Basra, and the streets of Baghdad.
The Iraq War, as men on the ground on all sides of the conflict will tell you, is over, and we—Americans and Iraqis together— won the right for the Arab world's first democracy to exist despite fierce internal and external opposition.
Because of the nature of insurgencies, our President, the Iraq Prime Minister, and the Generals commanding the coalition military forces will not formally declare the war
completed, but there is no longer any violence of violence occurring in Iraq that can be properly be called a war. There hasn't been in months, and the basic conditions for victory—the enemy are dead, vanquished, or turned—have existed
since July.
Zombie decided to declare today Victory in Iraq Day. I say, since the conditions are met and they've earned their victory, and should be able to call it by its proper name.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
10:24 AM
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1
Great! You gonna get on an aircraft carrier, with a big banner and everything?
"CY DECLARES MISSION ACCOMPLISHED"
Posted by: larrys at November 22, 2008 02:09 PM (PMlL4)
2
Great job, CY. The troops deserve every bit of this praise.
Posted by: The Sanity Inspector at November 22, 2008 03:34 PM (mG8Vx)
3
CY-
As I've stated elsewhere, I'm in total disagreement here on the verbiage and use of the word 'war'.
'Battle' would be more appropos.
As Iraq, as is Afghanistan, and the US, are 'fronts' in the GWOT, we need to use 'battles' until the radical jihadists have capitulated and either burrowed into the hills, never to come out, or denounced radical Islamism and laid down arms.
Either way, you and I won't see the GWOT, as a whole, understood until the right frame of reference is used; otherwise, we'll forever be trying to explain when and where this is all over; the example I would use is the 'Cold War'.
Wolf
Posted by: mr. wolf at November 22, 2008 05:02 PM (9xtFl)
4
Wolf, within the "Cold War" there were two other wars... Korea and Vietnam, and both of those are called wars.
In short, I doubt that there's much danger of confusion, after all, there's no confusion between the Korean War, the Vietnam War, and the Cold War.
Posted by: ConservativeWanderer (formerly C-C-G) at November 22, 2008 06:12 PM (Jqe+A)
5
Great! You gonna get on an aircraft carrier, with a big banner and everything?
"CY DECLARES MISSION ACCOMPLISHED"
Posted by larrys at November 22, 2008 02:09 PM
Ah yes, the standard libtard fallback when they can't dispute the facts, resort to infantile mockery.
Posted by: Todd at November 22, 2008 06:24 PM (Pyq82)
6
I've added this blog to my blogroll if that's cool. Great work. Our soldiers deserve it.
Posted by: Tim at November 22, 2008 07:14 PM (YqYOC)
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Hey, Tim... check my humble corner of the blogosphere... we can discuss blogroll entries.

Posted by: ConservativeWanderer (formerly C-C-G) at November 22, 2008 08:50 PM (Jqe+A)
8
CW-
Those two were part of the 'Cold War'? And here I thought the 'Cold War' was entirely with US, Russian, and Germans. I never considered VN and K as 'fronts' of the CW. Yeah verily we faced Communism, but unless I'm mistaken, Korea wasn't backed so much by USSR as ChiComs, and VN was backed by USSR. And the USSR was not exactly friendly with ChiCom views.
Plus, given that VN and K were 'shooting' wars, they don't fit 'Cold War' definition?
Or am I WAAAAAY off base here?
Wolf
Posted by: mr. wolf at November 22, 2008 09:12 PM (9xtFl)
9
No, Wolf, the Cold War was against communism in general... besides, you just admitted that in Vietnam we were facing off against a USSR-backed enemy, so in a way, yes, we were facing the USSR, whom you claim the Cold War was against.
In short, you just tied yourself up with your own twisted logic. Congrats.
Posted by: ConservativeWanderer (formerly C-C-G) at November 22, 2008 09:18 PM (Jqe+A)
10
This can't be true- I haven't seen it on the news. ;-]
Posted by: Jones at November 22, 2008 10:26 PM (VkNlv)
11
Actually, Wolf, the Germans weren't a part of the Cold War, other than the competition between East and West over the fate of Germany, which was divided during the Cold War. Korea and Vietnam were the two main hot wars of the Cold War that actually pitted US and Soviet combatants against other. In both wars, the Soviets provided massive amounts of assistance to both of our communist adversaries and flew combat missions on behalf of both North Korea and North Vietnam against US warplanes and ground forces. Think of the Cold War as the larger war of ideology and influence within which occurred hot wars between East and West. Much the same is occurring in the GWOT, with Iraq and Afghanistan as the two hot wars of the GWOT. Just because they've occurred within this larger competition doesn't make Iraq or Afghanistan any less "wars."
Good post, CY. Victory has come, whether the liberal media and the Democrats on the Hill like it or not. We need to get the word out because too many people still consider Iraq to be unsuccessful.
I also joined in V-I day on my blog. Check it out: www.thesurfingconservative.com
Cheers!
Posted by: Surfer 49 at November 23, 2008 01:01 AM (gu4Vo)
12
thank god, we can get out of that nightmare now. bout time.
Posted by: jimmy at November 23, 2008 06:40 AM (9FgXE)
13
Larrys is a jerk and an America hater. Brainwashed by liberal propaganda.
Sad, sad, sad to be opposed to the very country and policies that brought you freedom.
Have another toke, Jerry Garcia. The Vietnam was is over, Liberal Scum.
Posted by: Mayor Curley at November 23, 2008 08:58 AM (6roW3)
14
"thank god, we can get out of that nightmare now. bout time."
Posted by jimmy at November 23, 2008 06:40 AM
Right Jimmy,
Don't let us confuse you with facts, just keep regurgitating the same old stupid and thoroughly discredited libtard talking points.
Posted by: Todd at November 23, 2008 09:12 AM (Pyq82)
15
Jimmy, let's pull troops out of the countries where Democrats sent them into first. Let's see, there's Germany, and Korea, and Kosovo...
Posted by: ConservativeWanderer (formerly C-C-G) at November 23, 2008 09:18 AM (Jqe+A)
16
Ever noticed that the liberal wing of the Democrat party is either made up of young minds-of-clay, who are wet behind the ears and oozing with naivete, or Acid-headed children of the 60s who are still reliving Woodstock (another group rife with sophomoric notions/views of the world)?
Cancel my subscription. Barack Obama is a media-created farce and the leader of zombies.
I liked to think back to that movie "Night of The Living Dead": these mind-numbed zombies from the grave breaking in to voting precincts, in droves, and crashing the voting machines to vote for their false messiah.
Have fun someday someday: ask one of these O-Bots why they voted for them?
"Uh, uh, change. Hope."
Vapid fools.
Posted by: Mayor Curley at November 23, 2008 10:32 AM (6roW3)
17
Mr. Wolf:
Both North Korean and Chinese pilots used the MiG-15 fighter. And that aircraft was built where and supplied to them by which nation?
Posted by: Mikey NTH at November 23, 2008 01:51 PM (TUWci)
18
The point of my mockery was this: there's no victory anywhere, anytime, just because a bunch of bloggers (in this instance, ultra-consnervatives) decide to stage a publicity stunt to "declare" victory. It's hype. Just as much as Bush's ballyhooed "Mission Accomplished" banner was hype.
Victory will come when we can turn Iraq over to Iraqis and bring the bulk of our people home. And that isn't gonna happen before Bush leaves office, so he (and you) will just have to let January 20 come (and go) and be disappointed by Bush's absence of victory.
And, speaking of disappointment, I'm neither a wet-behind-the-ears kid or an acid-headed child of the 60s. I realize how convenient is it to stereotype your opponents, but it doesn't always work.
Posted by: larrys at November 23, 2008 02:43 PM (PMlL4)
19
The "Mission Accomplished" banner corresponded with the end of major combat operations against conventional military forces in Iraq, but what it was actually marking was the end of the tour of duty of the U.S.S. Abraham Lincoln (CVN-72) after it left the Persian Gulf and was returning to port in San Diego, its role in the war indeed over, its mission accomplished, which is what the banner celebrated. Liberals, of course, have never let reality get in the way of good narrative within the community-based reality, so we've been treated to their fantasies--your apparent reality--as a result.
More than 2/3 of Iraq's provinces are in Iraq control, including several once almost written off. More Americans have now died in Chicago than in Iraq in recent months. There is no longer a threat of civil war in Iraq. There is no longer a threat of terrorists or Sunni insurgents toppling the government. Iranian surrogates like al Sadr have become "community organizers," having lost the ability to wage war or exert the political power they once held.
Our soldiers who are there now, tell us the war in won, and that victory is ours in the ways that matter. some of our best war correspondents, far better traveled and more educated that the MSM, tell us the war is over, and victory is ours. Independent contractors on the ground tell us we've won.
The conditions for victory exist, hence, there is a victory. We've simply grown tired of a media unwilling to give credit to those who fought, bled, were broken, and occasionally died to win that victory, and so we chose to recognize their hard-fought success, when you and others like you would not.
I'm sorry that this disappoints you, but then, I suspect you're more interested in finding a way to claim Bush didn't win, than declaring American and Iraqi forces did.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at November 23, 2008 03:12 PM (HcgFD)
20
larrys
You remind me of the scene from Monty and the Holy Grail, where the Black Knight fights King Arthur and loses both arms and both legs, but keeps insisting he is not beaten. Well, have fun wiggling the stumps of your missing arms and hobbling around on the stumps of your missing legs, the rest of us will be moving on.
PS - I suppose you didn't consider WWII won either until the Japenese Representative put his signature on the Surrender Document aboard the Missouri, never mind that their offensive capability was effectively destroyed and that they were basically at the mercy of the allied forces.
Posted by: Todd at November 23, 2008 03:31 PM (Pyq82)
21
Larry, apparently you missed the news that we've been bringing troops home for months now.
It takes time, you know, this ain't Star Trek where you can just "beam" them from their FOB to their living room.
Oh, and declaring that you're not "A" and "B" doesn't necessarily preclude that you may be "C." There's plenty of anti-war lefty moonbats who are neither still wet behind the ear nor took acid in the 60s.
Crawl back to whatever lefty blog sent you here, willya?
Posted by: ConservativeWanderer (formerly C-C-G) at November 23, 2008 03:49 PM (Jqe+A)
22
C'mon, the banner wasn't for one carrier finishing her tour. That's just flat out a lie. Bush and his cronies had Bush fly in, had the banner made, etc etc etc NO WAY that was meant to say that the Lincoln's tour was over. If you're gonna offer lame excuses, at least make it semi-plausible.
And no, I don't think you have to wait for a signed armistice. But I'm also not thinking that a PR stunt by right wingnut bloggers makes ot even semi-official, either. How come Bushie hasn't been announcing a victory? Or the Big Dick?
Get real, people. Or, at the very least, be honest.
Posted by: larrys at November 23, 2008 11:18 PM (PMlL4)
23
C'mon, the banner wasn't for one carrier finishing her tour. That's just flat out a lie. Bush and his cronies had Bush fly in, had the banner made, etc etc etc NO WAY that was meant to say that the Lincoln's tour was over. If you're gonna offer lame excuses, at least make it semi-plausible.
If you're going to cling to BDS fantasies, larrys, make one that's mildly plausible.
Posted by: Patrick Chester at November 24, 2008 01:21 AM (RezbN)
24
How come Bushie hasn't been announcing a victory?
He let Dana Perino do it.
Posted by: Pablo at November 24, 2008 07:00 AM (yTndK)
25
As I said: larrys is an idiot:
The banner stating "Mission Accomplished" was a focal point of controversy and criticism. Navy Commander and Pentagon spokesman Conrad Chun said the banner referred specifically to the aircraft carrier's 10-month deployment (which was the longest deployment of a carrier since the Vietnam War) and not the war itself, saying "It truly did signify a mission accomplished for the crew."
And if I forgot to say he was an idiot before, I'm saying it now.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at November 24, 2008 07:34 AM (HcgFD)
26
CY, it wasn't really necessary to say that larrys is an idiot.
That is, to borrow a phrase, self-evident.
Posted by: ConservativeWanderer (formerly C-C-G) at November 24, 2008 08:18 AM (Jqe+A)
27
"...there is no longer any violence of violence occurring in Iraq that can be properly be called a war"
-- ConfederateYankee
Here is a list of American military deaths in Iraq for November, 2008 (so far). Please look it over.
I don't care whether you think of them as war dead, or not, CY. It's time to end this thing.
Posted by: M. Onan Batterload at November 25, 2008 12:15 AM (Wxuv7)
28
The military has casualties whether it's at war or not. Note that the majority of casualties listed were non-hostile in nature.
Perhaps we should just disband the military altogether, eh Onan?
Posted by: Pablo at November 25, 2008 06:47 AM (yTndK)
29
The military has casualties whether it's at war or not.
Seventy-seven American soldiers have died in Iraq since August 1st, 2008. That's roughly one every day-and-a-half.
Are you saying this is routine, Pablo?
Posted by: M. Onan Batterload at November 25, 2008 02:46 PM (R19Gs)
30
WARNING: Take your Dramamine before getting sucked into the spin machine created by the Bushie White House and the Pentagon, and continued ad nauseum by Rebel Yank.
CY, it appears that you may be the idiot for quoting a Pentagon source and ignoring your blessed Commander-in-Chief:
"Major combat operations in Iraq have ended. In the battle of Iraq, the United States and our allies have prevailed."
That's from the whitehouse.gov press release on May 1, 2003 of the text of Bushie's speech aboard the Lincoln... under the headline "President Bush Announces Major Combat Operations in Iraq Have Ended". Not "President Bush Announces U.S.S. Lincoln Has Ended Its Long Tour of Duty".
Yeah, this sure confirms that Pentagon PR hack who tried to cover for the President much later.
It was the Navy's idea and the Navy's banner, was the first cover story.
No, not quite right: it was the Navy's idea, but it was White House personnel that made the banner. But the Navy put it up.
Noooo, still not quite right: it was the Navy's idea, for sure, but it was White House personnel that made the banner AND it was a White House advance team that put it up aboard the Lincoln. But ABSOLUTELY, it was the Navy's idea. And it only meant to celebrate the end of the Lincoln's tour of duty. Uh huh, yessir!
And all that talk about major combat operations in Iraq ending, and the United States prevailed, in May 2003? Guess that never happened?
Posted by: larrys at November 26, 2008 08:21 PM (PMlL4)
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November 20, 2008
Friendly Fire Coverup Comes to Light
Read this article and watch the 12 minutes of edited video. There is some circumstantial evidence here that two U.S. soldiers in an apparent overwatch position were mistaken for insurgents in Ramadi in 2006, and were then killed by a single shot from the main gun of a U.S Abrams tank. Audio in the clip also seems to indicate that the coaxial 7.62 machine gun on the tank also opened up on the position following the discharge of the main gun.
Friendly fire occurs in every war, even though our soldiers try very hard to minimize the risk.
Here, though, it seems that a coverup began to form within 30 minutes of the incident, before the second soldier who died was even evacuated. As his sergeant blamed the incoming fire on a tank in a radio call, he was immediately told by a superior who was not on the scene that the deaths were the result of enemy mortar fire.
That someone then ordered the rushed shredding all documentation related to the men further reeks of a coverup. I suspect we have some Captains, Majors, and perhaps even a Colonel or higher who are involved.
The Army needs to get to the bottom of this, and fast.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
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1
I think you are falling for a selective telling of the incidents of this action. Nothing in the video comfirms the accusation of friendly fire, only that the unit think the fire came from the tank. There was more action going on then just what this unit's view of what was happening. The video starts with a discussion if it was "incoming or outgoing fire".
If you read through the Army's report, there were incoming motar rounds. The report indicates the US responded quickly to the identified motar position and that there is video of that reponse. It also states that the tanks were not just firing at just any targets they saw. The tanks had their maingun fire directed and cleared 4 times. The tank commanders knew that there were Friendlies in the surrounding buildings.
I wasn't there, but there is no evidence presented in the article that it was a friendly fire incident.
Another thing that causes me to go "HMMM?"
How does providing documents prove that someone was ordered to destroy those documents? The documents that Salon were provided aren't related to the incident. These documents are meaningless to the incident in question.
I have three nephews that have just returned 2 from Iraq and 1 from Afghanistan. One of them was a forward observer. It was his responsiblity to direct supporting fire. I'm quite sure that there would have been a similar position involved in this action. In close house to house fighting the big guns have their fire directed.
I know that friendly fire incident occur but there is no evidence that it happened here and/or there was an attempt of a coverup.
Please don't pull a Murtha here and accuse our men without proof.
Posted by: Alan at November 20, 2008 05:30 PM (tjVXx)
2
Boy, there's a lot of heat, but very little light in that salon article.
So we have a couple of soldiers on extra duty (punishment) being detailed to do an unpleasant chore. That's what extra duty is all about.
Every battalion or company maintains a rather extensive local working/training file on each soldier. That file does not follow you when you leave that unit or the Army. It is destroyed.
The default assumption here by Salon is that a 15-6 is proof of a coverup. That isn't so. Let's say LTC McFarland started an investigation. He would know which company's tank has supposedly fired on US forces. The investigating officer would NOT be from that company. There is a separation between the investigator and the subject of the investigation.
Salon is in the business of generating traffic, not finding the truth.
Posted by: XBradTC at November 20, 2008 09:31 PM (mhgH5)
3
While I applaud your curiosity and desire to know the truth, CY, to be perfectly honest, I'd need more than a single Salon story to really consider this worthy of a lot of digging. It's not like Salon has really been in the same class a BlackFive when it comes to supporting the troops, after all.
Posted by: ConservativeWanderer (formerly C-C-G) at November 20, 2008 10:28 PM (Jqe+A)
4
Guys, I got my start blogging because of Salon's loons, so trust me, it wasn't the text that influenced me as much as the soldiers in the vid, particularly within the first four minutes. At least one soldier called the shots on their position from the tank, saying he spotted muzzle flashes and then heard the impact hit the building. I think he was referring to the coaxial machine gun and not the 120 smoothbore, but as they are aligned on the same axis, it would make sense that if the 7.62 was hitting their building just split seconds after the 120 went off, then odds are the 120 fired the shot that hit the building and killed their soldiers.
Further, that the senior officer's voice on the radio immediately called a mortar strike, even though he was remote. Granted, he may have access to counter mortar radar in his position, but my gut is that the heard radio chatter from the M1 and figured it out , and perhaps had some sort of culpability in clearing the fire.
That;s my gut, folks, and I am on occasionally wrong on this sort of stuff, but my track record is that I'm more often than not right.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at November 20, 2008 10:46 PM (HcgFD)
5
Like I said, CY, I wasn't there so I can only relay my impressions from the video and the US Army's report. I need more then your gut (I read emotional reaction to the video) to convince me that it was friendly fire and a cover up. In the first four minutes, there was a question of, if the nearby explosions were incoming or outgoing fire? The report states that this area was, indeed, receiving hostile mortar fire at this time. The unit seems to assume all explosions were caused the fire from the tank.
Both KIA soldiers, were on the roof top. While I don't have a layout of the building or streets, the tanks seemed to have been too close for a high angle a shot to the top of the roof.
You seem to jump "Murtha style" to assume the worst of the US Army officer who relayed the info that this unit was under hostile mortar fire, of which they seemed to be unaware.
Posted by: Alan at November 21, 2008 03:55 PM (CLRLE)
6
"Further, that the senior officer's voice on the radio immediately called a mortar strike, even though he was remote. Granted, he may have access to counter mortar radar in his position, but my gut is that the heard radio chatter from the M1 and figured it out , and perhaps had some sort of culpability in clearing the fire."
Or perhaps he was looking at predator video. Who knows? You can't judge this on the basis of what a couple of soldiers think they saw. Wait and see is a good policy on things like this.
Posted by: douglas at November 22, 2008 03:09 AM (20QoQ)
7
Agreed.
A 'CYA' isn't a good thing, because pointing outmistakes allows corrective action to take place, such as new doctrine or pointing out why procedures are to be done.
And at the best, it can just point out that a mistake was made in the heat of combat, which can happen at anytime and anyplace.
Posted by: Mikey NTH at November 23, 2008 01:54 PM (TUWci)
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I'd like to point out two facts from the video that that go a long way to prove that this was not a friendly fire incident. First, at one point early in the video, the camera is pointed out the window and you can clearly see the tanks in question. They are maybe 100 or so yard away. Second, listen carefully to the audio right before the explosions occured. You can hear the tanks firing their main guns and hear the soldiers react. Then about 5 seconds before the explosions occur, you hear the tanks fire one last time. This lag in the time you hear the weapons fire to the time of the round impact is called FLASH TO BANG and is a quick way judge distance. There's no way that there would me so much of a time difference between hearing the tanks fire to the time the rounds impacted.
This wasn't discussed in the investigators report, but COL McFarland mentions it in his review.
As for the shredding, its doubtful that records of a Brigade investigation would be held at the Battalion record. From the two pieces of paper saved from the shredding, they appear to be simple training or personnel records. As for the date of the shredding, probably coincidence.
Posted by: BohicaTwentyTwo at November 24, 2008 10:18 AM (oC8nQ)
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Only Supply is Dampening The Run On Guns
"I could sell a hundred ARs an hour, if I had them."
That was the word from the man behind the counter at my local gun shop yesterday afternoon when I stopped in. As if to put an exclaimation point on his claim, two men added their names to an ever-growing waiting list to purchase AR-15 carbines within minutes of my entering the store.
Two months ago, the first two racks of rifles to great you as you entered Fuquay Gun & Gold would be bristling with AR15 carbines, AK-pattern rifles, and a smattering of SKS carbines. Today, those same worn racks are almost bare except for misfits from the Island of Misfit Martial Toys—a pair of Saiga Ak-pattern shotguns, a .22 caliber AR-clone, and a nearly $900 VZ-58 with the ugliest stock I've ever seen.
Fears of an Obama administration attempt to raise prohibitive taxes and reinstate bans on so-called "assault weapons" and standard capacity magazines have led to rushes on many kinds of semi-automatic rifles and pistols, especially those with high capacity magazines. Until recently, Obama's transition website indicated his intention to reinstate the ineffective 1994 Assault Weapons Ban that passed under President Clinton and expired in 2004 under President Bush.
Local news reports from other gun shops across the country seem to indicate that a run on military-style semi-automatics and ammunition of all types may continue for months as long-time shooters and new gun purchasers stock up in preparation for what many expect to be one of the most divisive, anti-gun federal governments in years.
Update: Janet Reno's Deputy Attorney General during the Clinton years, Eric Holder, seems to be Obama's choice to be the next Attorney General. It wasn't until
Glenn Reynolds highlighted a post at the Volokh Conspiracy that I realized
how dangerous of a selection Holder is to gun owners.
Earlier this year, Eric Holder--along with Janet Reno and several other former officials from the Clinton Department of Justice--co-signed an amicus brief in District of Columbia v. Heller. The brief was filed in support of DC's ban on all handguns, and ban on the use of any firearm for self-defense in the home. The brief argued that the Second Amendment is a "collective" right, not an individual one, and asserted that belief in the collective right had been the consistent policy of the U.S. Department of Justice since the FDR administration. A brief filed by some other former DOJ officials (including several Attorneys General, and Stuart Gerson, who was Acting Attorney General until Janet Reno was confirmed)took issue with the Reno-Holder brief's characterization of DOJ's viewpoint.
But at the least, the Reno-Holder brief accurately expressed the position of the Department of Justice when Janet Reno was Attorney General and Eric Holder was Deputy Attorney General. At the oral argument before the Fifth Circuit in United States v. Emerson, the Assistant U.S. Attorney told the panel that the Second Amendment was no barrier to gun confiscation, not even of the confiscation of guns from on-duty National Guardsmen.
As Deputy Attorney General, Holder was a strong supporter of restrictive gun control. He advocated federal licensing of handgun owners, a three day waiting period on handgun sales, rationing handgun sales to no more than one per month, banning possession of handguns and so-called "assault weapons" (cosmetically incorrect guns) by anyone under age of 21, a gun show restriction bill that would have given the federal government the power to shut down all gun shows, national gun registration, and mandatory prison sentences for trivial offenses (e.g., giving your son an heirloom handgun for Christmas, if he were two weeks shy of his 21st birthday). He also promoted the factoid that "Every day that goes by, about 12, 13 more children in this country die from gun violence"--a statistic is true only if one counts 18-year-old gangsters who shoot each other as "children."
After that, Holder's plans for gun owners gets
worse.
And as "stace" noted in the comments, Obama's desire to reinstate the ineffectual "assualt weapons" provision of the 1994 crime bill is
back on his web site as a goal for his administration.
Update: Even Better! I'm starting to understand why the protégé of a Marxist domestic terrorist would favor someone like Holder.
He'd regulate the Internet as well.
Reasonable restrictions seems to be the only way these people can view the Constitution. For our own good, of course.
Final Update: Screening to keep gun owners out of his administration?
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
11:52 AM
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1
I want one. I'm afraid of guns. They scare me. But some things are more dangerous than a gun in the hands of a free citizen of a democracy. Like a Marxist Socialist in the White House... because Marxists have killed 100,000,000 human beings and are the most murderous politicians in world history, I believe. But an armed citizenry is a protection against mass murder by Marxist Socialist politicians - the most genocidal politicians on the planet, perhaps.
See, I used to call those guns "AR's" for "Assault Rifle". But that's not really what they are. They're "C&BS". "Check & Balance Systems".
I think we need our Check & Balance Systems now more than ever here in the USA.
All sytems must operational and prepared for the exercise of our Constitutional Right.
Now, if the Founding Fathers wanted us ARMED against a Government that could go genocidal on us, did they really believe we were supposed to honor politicians in order to honor God?? Do Christians really understand that we are to view Marxist Socialist politicians, for example, as evil?? And protect ourselves?? Because they might try to kill us?? That's what the Founding Fathers were MOST concerned about... because they knew history... and they did not exalt politicians or believe that honoring politicians in office was necessary to be a good Christian. They thought being armed against the Government so officials wouldn't get all power hungry and turn murderuos... and having no trust in the Government... was being Christian.
I want a Check & Balance System because it's one of the most effective deterrant against politicians acting like they're God and deserve our worship and think they can take away our Constitution and our Rights... even to life.
Politicians are dangerous people that are most prone become very evil and dangerous when the people don't have those Check & Balance Systems against a Government gone Socialist, for example, which is a Government System responsible for 100,000,000 murders of citizens of it's own countries.
I pray my fellow citizens are armed to the hilt... and rise up to protect and defend the right to bear arms if this Government tries to take that right away. Because the next step by a Marxist would be genocide, imo, and Obama is a Marxist, imo, based on the facts.
Grace.
Posted by: ld at November 20, 2008 12:55 PM (tdrxf)
2
If I had more disposable cash laying around, I'd definitely be stocking up on ammo. Unfortunately, I live in NJ so any restrictive gun measures would probably put the rest of the nation where I'm at now, so there's none that I can buy now anyway that I feel are at risk. But the thought of the rest of the country being like NJ scares the daylights out of me.
Posted by: Mike Gray at November 20, 2008 01:41 PM (kZVsz)
3
Went to Georgia Arms (georgia-arms.com, ammunition supplier) yesterday (National Ammo Day), and couldn't get what I wanted - for example, they were all out of .45 hollow-point. Couldn't get 124 grain 9mm, they only had 115gr. Now, these people go to all the gun shows around, sell bullets by the thousand (go see), and they can't keep up with the demand in the last month.
Hmmmmmmmmm.
Posted by: Bill Johnson at November 20, 2008 01:50 PM (5LUFO)
4
Dear "Id":
AR stands for "Armalite Rifle", the original manufacturers of the AR-15.
see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AR-15
by common definition, for a weapon to be considered an "assault weapon" it needs to be a rifle chambered for an intermediate caliber, capable of both semi and fully automatic fire. the media will tell you otherwise, but as usual, they are wrong.
it *is* possible to own an assault weapon here in the US, but you must pay all the taxes on one, and live in a state that allows them, such as Arizona. the vast majority of "AR's" sold in the us are semi-automatic only, and therefore are just rifles.
as for being afraid or scared of guns, does your car scare you? or your kitchen knives? guns are simply tools that are as safe as anything else in your house or garage, provided you are properly trained, understand how they w*rk, and treat them as you would any other useful but potentially dangerous piece of equipment, like a chain or skill saw..... call up the local shooting range and make an appointment with an NRA certified instructor for a weapons safety course. they are reasonably priced, and you're likely to find that you're a lot less scared when you actually know something about how guns are handled.
Posted by: redc1c4 at November 20, 2008 02:46 PM (vLw7K)
5
Boy, you guys are just suckers. Running out and spending your very hard-earned dollars because the gun industry tells you to. Sheesh. Go ahead...buy all the guns and ammo you want. Knock yourselves out. But trust me folks...if the US Government comes for your guns (which they won't)...you don't stand a chance against a modern-day SWAT team. Obama is not a Marxist, or a socialist and raising taxes a little bit to dig out the economy is not the end of the world.
Posted by: Roger Goldman at November 20, 2008 03:22 PM (uabyl)
6
Forget you Mr. Goldstein, you're delusional if you think Obamamaniac isn't intent on taking my hard earned assault rifle from my cold dead pried apart fingers. Typical lie-beral nonsense, hey look over there, not over here, presto, the A.R. is gone! Poof! Then what are we to do? We're screwn. Concentration camps, that's what. You betcha!
Posted by: Kirk R. at November 20, 2008 03:28 PM (uabyl)
7
Kirk R. Your a moran! I voted Republican my entire life, like my father and his father. Do you want to live in a world without AR like we did from 1994 to 2004!!!11!! JUST WAIT. Maybe if you were in a concentration camp, it would help you think more clearly!
Posted by: Roger Goldman at November 20, 2008 03:33 PM (uabyl)
8
Roger it is seid that those who do not remember there history aro doomed to repite it. A lot tof pepole seid the same thing about Hilter!!!!!
Posted by: Rich in KC at November 20, 2008 04:30 PM (siQqy)
9
I see the SadlyNo grade schoolers are paying a visit.
Posted by: goober at November 20, 2008 09:46 PM (/NgrF)
10
You're an idiot, Goldman. The organ's of state security are not sufficient to stand up against an armed populace in a state of rebellion, as history has shown in dozens of cases. Also, in the event of such a breakdown of constitutional rule in the U.S, a great deal of the army and police would be on the side of the rebels, civil wars work that way.
That's not going to happen today, this year, next year or ten years from now. But fifty years? A hundred? You honestly think you know what history has in store for the republic? Arms in the hands of the people are the final check against tyranny. The FIRST thing any would-be tyrant does is disarm his victims. READ SOME HISTORY, GENIUS.
Posted by: Amos at November 21, 2008 02:48 AM (ckdWX)
11
If one takes a look a the past, Govt's typically institute gun bans before the killing of citizens starts. Ask any Nazi concentration camp survivor how did it start. Secondly, with Mexico's drug lords openly killing their military, police,and citizens like its open season, what do you think they would do to the US if they knew citizens here had no ability to protect themselves? Wait- dont they have gun control there?
Posted by: BroomO at November 21, 2008 06:21 AM (XFksb)
12
That reminds me...I'll be first in line tomorrow morning when the local gun show opens for business.

Posted by: W-K-B at November 21, 2008 07:03 AM (6DvsC)
13
Goldman, You must get your information from the mainstream media. Or you are just ignorant. Obama has surrounded himself with America haters his whole life! I think you are a victim of the " Oh it's all just republicans lie" crowd.This guy has NO experience!And is the number one lib in the senate! I'm sure that he'll try to fill every judicial slot opening no matter how small with socialist's. And people like you will say" Oops ,guess we were wrong" TOO LATE THEN DUMMY!
Posted by: marine43 at November 21, 2008 07:41 AM (mS3ud)
14
Roger Goldman at November 20, 2008 03:22 PM:
"...raising taxes a little bit to dig out the economy is not the end of the world."
Yeah, we'll tax our way out of the recession. After that, we'll dig our way out of a pit, climb our way off of a tower, and eat our way to a svelte new figure!
That's the ticket!
Posted by: Troll Feeder at November 21, 2008 08:47 AM (iP3Ql)
15
A SWAT team is not made of Terminators or Aliens or Predators from a hollycr@p movie. It’s people with good training and good kit provided by the people they have sworn to serve and protect. And they don’t stand a chance against the people armed and in revolt. Just how many SWAT are there? And how many of them are willing to kill the people they swore to serve and protect? Don’t kid yourself and don’t drink the liberal-communist cool aid of the almighty state. Neither the state nor the security forces stand a chance of the people says “ENOUGH!!!” And you will see many LEO, SWAT included and many a soldier of all kinds joining the ranks of a revolution. They don’t live in limbo. They are Americans, too. Only liberal-communists entertain the concept that the people are powerless because that’s how they feel themselves and how they would want the rest of the people to be. Surprise!
Posted by: Jorge Banner at November 21, 2008 09:34 AM (qQL6L)
16
Bob, the AWB is back up on Obama's website now.
"They also support making the expired federal Assault Weapons Ban permanent."
http://change.gov/agenda/urbanpolicy_agenda/
Posted by: stace at November 21, 2008 09:37 AM (JO0c/)
17
Anyone that calls the current slew of gun buyers "alarmists" is only fooling himself.
The current Democratic party and most of the Republicans in Washington worship the toilet that Kofi Annan used to crap on. They love the UN. It's easy to pick out the ones that don't give 2 cents about your *inherent* gun rights. Its the ones that say, "I love the 2nd Amendment! I think you should be able to hunt!" Alarms should be going off on your crap detector big time.
Remember the 2A is there to keep government from making laws about an INHERENT right. A right given to you by your creator, whether that be God or some sort of primordial soup.
The 2A does NOT grant you a right.
Posted by: Buddy at November 21, 2008 09:52 AM (D+TTb)
18
In the current economic meltdown, it's not a SWAT team you need to worry about; it's the drug-addled poor people and crystal-meth zombies who are coming to take whatever you've got. We're planning to hug our own little armalite too, but sheesh; we're going to have to get in line along with millions of others. When we have to take all of our money out of the bank, during the run on it, we will need an armory to protect it. ;o}
Posted by: mountainaires at November 21, 2008 10:21 AM (vHTDa)
19
The only "hunting" I see covered in the 2A is the hunting of tyrants and their lapdogs.
Posted by: Claymore at November 21, 2008 10:33 AM (yUnwD)
20
Obama doesn't know his history. Even Fleet Admiral and Commander-in-Chief of the Imperial Japanese Navy Isoroku Yamamoto understood America when he said, "You cannot invade the mainland United States. There would be a rifle behind every blade of grass." There will be hell to pay if Obama and his administration even try.
Posted by: le comat at November 21, 2008 10:58 AM (7jRCm)
21
The Thunder Run has linked to this post in the - Web Reconnaissance for 11/20/2008 A short recon of what’s out there that might draw your attention, updated throughout the day...so check back often.
Posted by: David M at November 21, 2008 11:18 AM (gIAM9)
22
SWAT teams tend to do very poorly when they meet with armed resistance. They rely on surprise and intimidation. When those don't work, then it the history of assaulting starts to play out -- you begin losing 4 or more assaulters per defender.
Just last week, a SWAT guy was killed by a housewife with a handgun who thought he was a burglar. If you watch for them, you regularly see SWAT getting shot by homeowners that they are raiding.
Homeowners who did not know that they were coming, and were completely surprised, often asleep when the invasion begins.
Homeowners who do not train regularly with their weapons. Homeowners who do not have a specific intent to defend themselves from the police and are simply reacting and panicking.
If faced with the prospect of assaulting a home where the owner knows that they are coming, trains regularly with his weapons, and has a specific intent to protect himself from them, it would be the SWAT guys panicking.
Posted by: Phelps at November 21, 2008 11:35 AM (m7Fyt)
23
" This year will go down in history,
for the first time a civilized
nation has full gun registration!
Our streets will be safer,
our police more efficient,
and our world will follow
our lead into the future!"
. . . Adolph Hitler, 1935
Posted by: flathead at November 21, 2008 11:56 AM (qkgvD)
24
Gun grabbing will never go far in this country because the effete, gelded wusses (e.g. Barack Obama) who think this is a great idea, will never be the people who have to carry it out. \
It will be people who believe in the Second Amendment.
And they won't do it and the geriatric hippies, pansy eggheads, slimy trial lawyers, race baiting poverty pimps, slacker college students and other drains on society who voted for Obama, aren't going to enforce it either.
Posted by: Brian at November 21, 2008 12:02 PM (YCShX)
25
I live in Virginia where gun ownership is high. That is reassuring to me on many levels. In the first place, if you have followed Australia's experience, crime has RISEN as gun ownership has fallen. Need I say more? Only those who are feeding on liberal pablum would deny that our nation is in grave danger from seditionists within and heaven-knows-what without. Personally, I'm happy to take responsibility for my own safety and freedom over a life of protracted and ever increasing subjugation!
Posted by: Gayle Miller at November 21, 2008 12:05 PM (zX5o+)
26
Obama can have my guns when he pries them from my cold dead hands.
Posted by: southerngrace at November 21, 2008 01:12 PM (m+wgi)
27
flathead:
That quote is a fake, IIRC. There are some other quotes about gun control by other members of the Nazi Party (as well as notables like Stalin) that can be verified, however.
(Old talk.politics.guns habit. I think it's still on the pro-gun FAQ for that newsgroup.)
Posted by: Patrick Chester at November 21, 2008 02:57 PM (MOvul)
28
i picked up a Ruger P95 about 2 weeks ago and 100 rounds for a starter gun.
it was only $360 and 47 for the amo
i used the economic stimulus check the Gov sent me to pay for it
i might send a letter to Plaosi and Reid thanking them for it
Posted by: insonh at November 21, 2008 05:48 PM (A2jkJ)
29
Goldman you don't know your recent history. An armed population can more than stand up to modern military power - remember Northern Ireland? Guns are illegal there but enough got into the hands of the IRA to cause the British Army many many casualties and the IRA wasn't that organized or that proficient with them either.
Our military has no idea how to handle an armed population - look at what is happening in Afghanistan now; the big Army is locked down on large bases while guys like me roam around the country at will because we are not hampered by the Big Army Stupidity Syndrome which strips away all initiative and common sense inside active combat zones. Get a clue mate - owning your own weapon is the first step to becoming a free man.
Posted by: Baba Tim at November 21, 2008 10:09 PM (2A4MS)
30
I have many guns, and boh can have them whenever he wants... bulletts first
Posted by: bite m at November 22, 2008 12:21 AM (I4yBD)
31
I managed to get one of the last two boxes of .45 hollow-point, but most everything was sold out at Wal-Mart. They didn't have anywhere to send me because everyone else was out too.
Posted by: Karen at November 22, 2008 02:25 AM (47kZo)
32
"And how we burned in the camps later, thinking: What would things have been like if every Security operative, when he went out at night to make an arrest, had been uncertain whether he would return alive and had to say good-bye to his family?
Or if, during periods of mass arrests, as for example in Leningrad, when they arrested a quarter of the entire city, people had not simply sat there in their lairs, paling with terror at every bang of the downstairs door and at every step on the staircase, but had understood they had nothing left to lose and had boldly set up in the downstairs hall an ambush of half a dozen people with axes, hammers, pokers, or whatever else was at hand?
After all, you knew ahead of time that those bluecaps were out at night for no good purpose. And you could be sure ahead of time that you'd be cracking the skull of a cutthroat.
Or what about the Black Maria sitting out there on the street with one lonely chauffeur -- what if it had been driven off or its tires spiked?
The Organs would very quickly have suffered a shortage of officers and transport and, notwithstanding all of Stalin's thirst, the cursed machine would have ground to a halt!
If... if... We didn't love freedom enough. And even more -- we had no awareness of the real situation. We spent ourselves in one unrestrained outburst in 1917, and then we hurried to submit. We submitted with pleasure! ...We purely and simply deserved everything that happened afterward."
Aleksandr Isayevich Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago."
Posted by: maximus otter at November 22, 2008 06:16 AM (plIbI)
33
I think it’s considered chic to refer to “Godwin’s Law” if comparisons to Hitler are made, and that is intended to show how just ridiculous such a comparison is, thereby taking it off the table.
But, that dude forecast, in his own writings, just what he was going to do, long before he actually did it.
Barry’s made his positions clear a long time ago.
As with his predecessor, people simply couldn’t accept that he was serious, that he actually meant it.
They probably still wont accept it, even while he does it. After all, he is practically worshiped as the leader of a revealed religion.
Perhaps, Jim Jones would be a better comparison.
(UPDATE - After posting this on another blog, with that line above, I just learned that someone named Jim Jones is on Obama’s short list for National Security Advisor. You just can't make this stuff up.)
-
Posted by: Paul_In_Houston at November 22, 2008 02:38 PM (VuVGB)
34
If faced with the prospect of assaulting a home where the owner knows that they are coming, trains regularly with his weapons, and has a specific intent to protect himself from them, it would be the SWAT guys panicking.
Not really. Because their doctrine says they won't be coming in after you. Depending on circumstances they'll just secure the perimeter cut off the water and wait, or if time is an issue they'll call in the Waco Killers (aka FBI HRT.)
It is true that armed citizens, singularly or even in small groups, cannot withstand the forces of the government. Offer resistance and you will be killed. The point of being armed is not to survive arrest it is to make your arrest difficult, problematic and very public.
The living John Brown was just another abolitionist crank. Dead by the hand of government he became something else entirely.
Posted by: ThomasD at November 23, 2008 12:11 PM (UK5R1)
35
European Resistance was able to stand up to the nazi machine. No SWAT or LEO or National Guard is going to do much better against the American people when the ENOUGH is given. Those who decide to obey the orders of the tyrant will be dealt with. Many won't and will join the ranks of the revolution. "The tree of liberty must be refreshed, from time to time, with the blood of patriots and tyrants." When Thomas Jefferson wrote that he wasn't talking about any foreign land, he was talking about America.
Posted by: Jorge Banner at November 23, 2008 06:46 PM (P5/sF)
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November 19, 2008
Stripping Concealed Carry in the O.C.
The new Orange County, CA Sheriff doesn't like citizens having the ability to defend themselves, and may take almost half of the concealed carry permits presently issued from their legal permit holders, for no good reason at all.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
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Lawsuit in 3...2...1...
Posted by: ECM at November 19, 2008 11:41 AM (q3V+C)
2
It's CA. . . you may get a sheep or two to BAAAA
but that is about it. Those permits are gone.
Posted by: JD at November 19, 2008 12:33 PM (VyXDV)
3
The big problem with "may issue" is the public interface, and creeps like this changing the rules ex-post-facto without notice or consequence.
Posted by: DirtCrashr at November 19, 2008 01:55 PM (VNM5w)
4
The old CCW permits were used as political favors by the previous sheriff who is under indictment. California makes it extremely difficult to get CCW permits but some of these may have been part of the corrupt favors regime. OTOH, the new sheriff is a woman and an outsider and may be extra PC. Most of us were pushing for a good guy named Jack Anderson to get the job (He was acting sheriff) but the pols wanted an outsider.
Posted by: Michael Kennedy at November 19, 2008 03:18 PM (xznvL)
5
Michael,
As far as I can tell every sheriff in California gives out CCWs to friends and cronies and for political favors; that's the problem with "may issue" CCW. The difference in O.C. was that Corona also gave them out to regular applicants who had no political connections. That is something both his predecessor and replacement wouldn't do.
Posted by: Greg at November 19, 2008 04:21 PM (KhioZ)
6
Some counties in California do have sheriffs who believe in the 2nd Amendment. Our sheriff even signed an amicus brief supporting Heller in the Supreme Court case.
I asked one of the undersheriffs why they're pretty liberal (in the classical sense) about giving out CCWs, and he said that the county is large and they can't always get to a troubled spot quickly. They'd rather that people have a chance to defend themselves if the law enforcement guys don't make it there soon enough.
Posted by: Anna at November 19, 2008 04:51 PM (LrtU7)
7
I think this process has been tried in other area's and shot down by the courts, but then you have to have a court system first. Having lived in Ca (Twice) I doubt they have one that cares about the citizens. One thing about Hussein O 'rule', females will have no power over anyone, so her job is gone.
Posted by: Scrapiron at November 19, 2008 10:04 PM (I4yBD)
8
Well, maybe in California they will just have to arrange for a new voting population.
Posted by: iconoclast at November 19, 2008 10:22 PM (ex0JG)
9
Here in Orange County we have a tradition of replacing corrupt public officials with complete idiots.
Posted by: Ken Hahn at November 20, 2008 02:54 AM (6HX0/)
10
Anna,
Which county are you referring to?
Just want to see if I'm in it.
Posted by: 1IDVET at November 20, 2008 10:49 AM (RqLIl)
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November 18, 2008
Prepping to Lose Afghanistan
U.S. forces have turned over the majority of the country to Iraq security forces with little recognition by a media obsessed with the cost of Sarah Palin's campaign wardrobe. There are units that had shed their once-required body armor because threats of enemy action are so low. Some frontline units have served their tours thus far without firing a single shot.
Despite a loathing by the media to declare it such, the Iraq wars are
effectively over, and we won. The first war was the second invasion of Iraq where U.S. conventional forces deposed Saddam Hussein, killed his heirs, and defeated his military in 2003. We won that one quickly. The second war, an asymmetrical conflict with al Qaeda in Iraq and other Sunni insurgent groups, emerged from the rubble of the conventional conflict as a media war, where seemingly random IED strikes and vicious terrorist bombings that killed dozens at a time sought to create chaos and defeat the U.S and Iraqi will to win.
I hasten to add that this war was in many ways effective, turning the majority of Americans against the conflict and a President who refused to surrender to terrorism. Despite some serious political and military mistakes, new U.S. counterinsurgency doctrine combined with a Sunni rebellion known as the Awakening Movement to stomp out or co-opt the last significant vestiges of the insurgency. Together as allies, Americans and Iraqis have won this war as well. What remains are isolated terrorists committing regrettable and ultimately pointless attacks of violence that can no longer significantly influence the course of history.
The third war, fought concurrently with the Sunni insurgency, was a proxy war pitting the Shia government and it's coalition backers against EFP-equipped, Iranian-trained Shia militias for the control of Iraq's Shia majority. This was won earlier this year when Iraqi forces commanded by the Prime Minister and backed by American units stormed de facto Iranian strongholds throughout southern Iraq, killing or capturing hundreds of pro-Iranian militiamen and effectively neutering Muqtada al Sadr's Medhi Army.
Like all counterinsurgencies, we couldn't easily see at the time when these foes were effectively finished as a long-term threat, but with the benefit of hindsight and ever-dwindling casualty figures for all sides, it is obvious that the war Barack Obama and his fellow Democrats tried so hard to lose in Congress was won in the sands of al Anbar, the slums of Basra, and the streets of Baghdad.
The Iraq War, as men on the ground
on all sides of the conflict will tell you, is over, and we—Americans and Iraqis
together— won the right for the Arab world's first democracy to exist despite fierce internal and external opposition.
Unable to force a loss in Iraq before taking office and now nearly unable to lose, Barack Obama's allies are already setting their sights on losing the other major conflict engaging our military, attempting to concede Pakistan's tribal areas and Afghanistan to al Qaeda, the Taliban, and other Islamofacist terrorist groups.
Since the beginnings of the buildup that led to the Iraq War, the same far left "war is never the answer (unless
we get to build the concentration camps)" set that didn't want us to invade Afghanistan suddenly declared that was the "good" war, that Afghanistan should be our focus, and that getting Osama bin Laden should be the primary, if not singular focus of the entire war on terror.
With Barack Obama now secured as the President Elect, TIME now declares that winning the Af-Pak conflict and getting Osama
isn't all that important after all:
The important point of Hayden's Atlantic talk Thursday was that Muslims have turned against bin Laden, realizing that his campaign against the West has ended up killing more Muslims than it has Islam's enemies. Al-Qaeda may be picking up adherents in North Africa and Yemen, preparing its return, but it certainly is no longer in a position to destabilize Saudi Arabia or any other Arab country. And, although Hayden didn't say it, there is no good evidence bin Laden is capable of mounting a large-scale attack. He failed to pull off an October surprise, as many in the FBI and CIA had feared he would.
Despite all this, whether bin Laden is alive or dead is actually pretty irrelevant. Obama has no real choice but to revitalize the search for him, if only for political considerations. If al-Qaeda were to attack in the United States the first months of his term, Obama would end up for the rest of it explaining why he wasn't more vigilant.
But what if bin Laden really is dead, buried under a hundred tons of rock at Tora Bora or so weakened that he might as well be dead? Indefinitely crashing around Afghanistan and Pakistan's wild, mountainous tribal region on a ghost hunt cannot serve our interests. The longer we leave troops in Afghanistan the worse the civil war there will become. One day Obama will need to give up the hunt — declare bin Laden either dead or irrelevant. He has more important enemies to deal with, from Iran to Russia.
I am more than happy to concede that bin Laden is either dead or irrelevant; that is an argument that many on the right and within the military have been making for a very long time. It has been the American left and Democrats in Congress that obsessed with making bin Laden a symbol of the war they argued we should be fighting instead of the war in Iraq. Now that Iraq is won and they have control of both branches of Congress and the White House, they're suddenly attempting to shift the goalposts.
Instead of focusing on winning the war they have been insisting is the "right" war to fight, they're now attempting to trivialize it and minimize expectations of what we can accomplish so that can build the political cover to withdrawal, sans victory. Rest assured... they
will find a way to blame President Bush for not winning, instead of accepting responsibility for the loss they are now hard at work trying to engineer.
Certainly, Afghanistan is in far more dire straits than Iraq, but it is a war that can still be won if Democrats decide it is worth committing to win. Sadly, so many of those now in Congress grew up in the 60s and 70s and have a systemic case of Vietnam Syndrome. They don't know how to win. They don't care to win, and in deeply disturbed, self-loathing, and broken parts of their psyche, they don't think we deserve to win wars.
Prepare for defeat, America.
After all, it is the change you elected.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
10:17 AM
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1
The dirty little secret is that Obama was NEVER really going to go after Bin Laden or Al Qaeda/Taliban forces in the Afghani theater of operations.
It was palpable rhetoric employed in order to buttress the point that you alluded, namely that Iraq was a distraction and we let our eye off the ball, so to speak, as per the Left.
I too, on yahoo today, saw the article in question prominently displayed:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/time/20081118/wl_time/httpwwwtimecomtimeworldarticle08599185935400htmlxidfeedyahoofullworld
All of sudden UBL is NOT important in the grand scheme of things...LOL
Mark my words, by the 3rd year of his despicable regime, Hussein, will have either withdrawn our forces from Afghanistan or drawn them down to the point of irrelevancy....
Posted by: Carlos Echevarria at November 18, 2008 10:52 AM (CsNoJ)
2
Here's a whacky notion, why don't we wait and see some concrete action from His Barryness before declaring Apocalypse Now? I don't doubt that Barry's enthusiasm for Afghanistan was as sincere as his opportunistic objection to Iraq but he is at least on record favoring the Afghan front. He cannot vote Present on this one and a thumbsucking delay that amounts to that has all the ramifications of taking the decision intentionally. These are the realities of politics; not elective politics but ALL politics whether those of Saddam Hussein, FDR, Ptolemy or Mahatma Ghandi. I for one look forward to the education of Barack Obama. He is out of the coccoon now. He is, sorry Bar! standing in the boots of George Bush and every other Chief Executive before him. I hope to heaven he knew that the Presidency did not come with Harry Potter's magic wand but if not (and that is what his rhetoric implied) he does now. Obama has the weight of the world on his shoulders. He said that was what he wanted. And whether we wanted it or not, that is the reality. I recall that we claimed recently to be in the business of reality. During the campaign Barack had a bad case of believing his own press. I don't think that can persist even as PresElec and certainly not after all the swearing. Watch; this man is about to go grey before our eyes as Clinton and W have. Not me though. I am eternal.
Posted by: megapotamus at November 18, 2008 11:28 AM (LF+qW)
3
The big mouthed miracle worker now has to deliver. I'd laugh except his folly is going to cost us so much in resources, pain and grief. America will rue the day.
Posted by: Shoprat at November 18, 2008 05:22 PM (3czWq)
4
Mega, wanna make a bet on whether or not Obama goes soft on the War on Terror? I'll take the "yes, he will" side of that bet.
Simply put, Obama has a wet noodle for a spine. He is constitutionally incapable of coming to a big decision without more angst than any other 100 people. Look at how much hemming and hawing we had on his veep pick, not to mention all those "present" votes in his history.
He's shown none of the inner strength of a Bush to fight a war in the face of the anti-war frothing moonbats. He will go wobbly, the only question is how long it will take.
Posted by: ConservativeWanderer (formerly C-C-G) at November 18, 2008 06:21 PM (Jqe+A)
5
While I agree w/ those who are skeptical about Obama (and agree w/ CY's prediction on how this will unfold), I'm also prepared to let Obama's actions be the basis for criticism.
I think that it is entirely appropriate to wait for Obama to be inaugurated and to act, before tearing into him.
But at the same time, I think it's important to be able to remind his liberal defenders, here and elsewhere:
A. What Obama promised.
B. What Obama actually does.
C. The separation between "A" and "B."
D. How what Obama does is actually not that different from what Dubya did .
If that means applying some of the Left's favored comments to Obama, in our criticism, well, who are they to object?
But waiting until Obama is actually inaugurated is part of what should separate the sane from the Nutroots.
Posted by: Lurking Observer at November 18, 2008 08:30 PM (iJ9+m)
6
C-Dub, I know where you are coming from there and have roughly the same estimation of Barry's grit but that is the Barry of the primaries which is somewhat the Barry of today but the movement has been significant just since the election. As I said, the Dems are LOUDLY on record favoring Afghanistan exclusively. Like the election, now with the Iraq war in the rear view, the dog has caught the bus. They have the opportunity to do what they have claimed to want. The move to Hillary is obviously (if sincere) a sign of intent to prosecute the GWOT rather than a bugout. As always, the only sensible end to this discussion is, we shall see. I forget what British leader it was who, when asked what would determine Crown policy leading up to the war said, "Events, dear boy. Events." Events have Barry outgunned and surrounded. Kumbayaism, if he tries it, will fail spectacularly, early and often. If the man proves ineducable, so be it but I'm going to wait on events.
Posted by: megapotamus at November 19, 2008 10:32 AM (LF+qW)
7
If ever there was a golden opportunity to exceed 9/11 as Obl claims’ he wants to do it’s inauguration day!! You have both Presidents, Obamas
Cabinet, both the Senate and Congress, The Supreme Court and god knows
how many people in attendance…I think I would avoid DC on that day!!!
Posted by: Gator at November 19, 2008 12:01 PM (uaTZE)
8
The Thunder Run has linked to this post in the - Web Reconnaissance for 11/19/2008 A short recon of what’s out there that might draw your attention, updated throughout the day...so check back often.
Posted by: David M at November 19, 2008 12:43 PM (gIAM9)
9
I just finished Bing West's new book "The Strongest Tribe" and it is the best thing I've read about Iraq. It s similar t Michael Yon's bok but with more strategic discussion and West spent a lot of time with Petraeus and the generals.
Michael Yon's blog has a new post on Afghanistan that illustrates some problems. For one thing, we should just buy the entire opium crop and be done with it.
Posted by: Mike K at November 19, 2008 03:25 PM (zOdg/)
10
Maybe I'm just a pessimist, Mega, but I prefer to prepare for the worst and then be pleasantly surprised if it doesn't happen.
Posted by: ConservativeWanderer (formerly C-C-G) at November 19, 2008 08:08 PM (Jqe+A)
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