Confederate Yankee
December 24, 2008
More Guns, More Jobs
Martin Feldstein, a Harvard economics professor and chairman of the Council of Economic Advisers under President Reagan, opines in the Wall Street Journal that an increase in defense spending would provide much-needed economic stimulus:
A temporary rise in DOD spending on supplies, equipment and manpower should be a significant part of that increase in overall government outlays. The same applies to the Department of Homeland Security, to the FBI, and to other parts of the national intelligence community.
The increase in government spending needs to be a short-term surge with greater outlays in 2009 and 2010 but then tailing off sharply in 2011 when the economy should be almost back to its prerecession level of activity. Buying military supplies and equipment, including a variety of off-the-shelf dual use items, can easily fit this surge pattern.
For the military, the increased spending will require an expanded supplemental budget for 2009 and an increased budget for 2010. A 10% increase in defense outlays for procurement and for research would contribute about $20 billion a year to the overall stimulus budget. A 5% rise in spending on operations and maintenance would add an additional $10 billion. That spending could create about 300,000 additional jobs. And raising the military's annual recruitment goal by 15% would provide jobs for an additional 30,000 young men and women in the first year.
Feldstein isn't pushing for the creation of radical complex new weapons systems with such a short-term spending increase, and so I'd encourage the incoming Obama Administration to use the proposal to stock up on upgrades in the small arms our frontline soldiers and Marines are using in the war against terrorism.
I'm not expert enough to try to sell any particular improvement as being any more important than another, but there are certainly several ideas worth considering one can come across without very much research at all.
In no particular order:
- Upgrading rifle and carbine magazines. A common reason our existing M16/M4 rifles experience jams is because of of magazine-related failures. Perhaps purchasing existing "off the shelf" magazines will work, or perhaps funding new R&D in this area is needed, but this seems like a good short-term project in-line with Feldstein's proposal.
- Upgrade the rifle and carbine operating systems. The M16/M4 has been knocked since it's inception for reliability issues due to its operating system, and multiple vendors have off-the-shelf upper receivers that are at least theoretically far more reliable, run cleaner, and cooler. While a program that is slated to end in 2011 won't (probably) give us enough time to make a revolutionary leap in small arms technology, such an evolutionary step seems warranted, could upgrade many front-line rifles, and be a good fit for the stimulus timeframe.
- Upgrade small arms ammunition. Advancements in small arms ammunition design means that we can field ammunition with bullets far more effective that that presently fielded as general issue. Special forces are using this ammunition and seem to be very impressed with its performance, so retooling and expanding production lines to take advantage of more effective cartridges seems a very wise use of stimulus money.
- R&D in news small arms systems. The M16/M4 design is older than the soldiers using it, and in this instance, older is not always better. Their is significant room for improvement creating a more compact, reliable, more accurate weapon with modular components that allow soldiers in the field to readily modify them for mission-specific requirements. The current 9mm M9 pistol simply bites, doing nothing well, so a more effective pistol is certainly needed. Non-frontline troops can become frontline troops in asymmetrical warfare in moments, so perhaps personal defensive weapon (PDW) systems with a rifle's range and armor-piercing capability and a submachinegun's compactness are certainly worthy looking at, and I can't believe existing first-generation MP7 and P90s are the only solution.
There are plenty of short-term small arms projects that can fit the proposal offered by Feldstein and serve as job-creating economic stimulus. Let's hope that incoming powers that be see the good-sense in his proposal.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
08:35 AM
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There's a better chance of breathing in a vacuum, than Obama's administration increasing ANY spending in the defense field.
His known, vocal anti-gun stance, his videoed anti-defense spending speech all point exactly the other way with this idea.
Posted by: Conservative CBU at December 24, 2008 10:19 AM (M+Vfm)
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A number of observers are equating Obama's attitude toward the military with that of Jimmy Carter's. Under Carter's administration, the military was allowed to languish--even atrophy--resulting in a significant decrease in capability and morale. It was only the coming of the Reagan administration that reinvigorated the service arms.
Provided he is true to his rhetoric--and this is questionable--Obama appears to be another Chamberlain, going the appeasement, let's talk, "peace in our time", route. Remember how well that worked out.
Unfortunately, those ignorant of history (and Obama has provided numerous illustrations of his capacity in this regard) are doomed to repeat it. They just don't believe the axiom applies to them.
I wish the new president success, since we're all on this ship together and there aren't enough lifeboats to go around. If he would take time to temper hope and change with a few good history books (Churchill's History of the Second World War would be an excellent start) he might be a wiser and more successful president.
Here's "hoping".
Posted by: Just Askin' at December 24, 2008 11:01 AM (esv00)
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It looks like Obama is ready to throw anything under the bus that might hinder his winning a second term. The left can be taken for granted but he will need new friends to secure a 60 seat Senate and more power. So we can't rule out anything he might do. He may be more Clinton than the Clintons.
Posted by: Gary Ogletree at December 25, 2008 07:00 AM (Ds+Q/)
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I'm in agreement with all suggestions in the above list. I must, however, respectfully disagree with your assessment of the M9 pistol. I have the civilian version - Beretta 92 - and I find it to be a fine sidearm. Far better than the comparable Glock of the same era (late eighties) which I also own. I would advocate abandoning the 9mm cartridge in favor of the tried-and-true .45 caliber or the more modern 40mm round. Just don't make our soldiers use a Glock to fire it.
There's no accounting for taste, firearms-wise. It's like chocolate vs. vanilla. Or tase in women. Neither one is necessarily "Better" so much as just a matter of preference. Except when a chick has really big boobs. Nobody doesn't like that.
Posted by: Bryan Frymire at December 25, 2008 11:42 AM (2Nv0T)
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"I would advocate abandoning the 9mm cartridge in favor of the tried-and-true .45 caliber or the more modern 40mm round. " 40mm ???
General timeline:
US adopts 9 mm. M9 pistol.
Later, government agencies adopt 10 mm/.40 calibers.
Still later, Special Ops adopts the "old fashioned" .45 caliber instead of the "more modern" 10 mm/.40 cal.
Posted by: jay stevens at December 25, 2008 01:08 PM (kdtAV)
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Regarding M4 magazines: just adopt the steel ones the Brits made and put on the surplus market some years back. I have eight of them, none of which has ever malfunctioned.
Posted by: Papa Whiskey at December 25, 2008 01:33 PM (zoE1S)
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I think a 40mm pistol would totally rock.
Nah. Not really. I just merged 10mm and .40 caliber rounds in my head and vomited forth the nonexistent "40mm pistol round". It is nonextistent - right?
Posted by: Bryan Frymire at December 25, 2008 04:44 PM (2Nv0T)
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No, it exists, Bryan, it's just not generally available. I find mine an excellent backup for my phased plasma rifle in the 40 watt range.
Posted by: Steve Skubinna at December 25, 2008 09:23 PM (Vcyz0)
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I am thinking that R&D won't be much of a boost to the economy, but certainly purchasing a new model of the M-16, or better yet, replace it with the SCAR Light, or best, replace all 5.56 systems with a 6.8 SPC. That would keep factories humming. Also replace the M9 with a .45, double the size of the F-22 and F-35, a new GPMG as the M240 is just too heavy. The A4 model of the M60 is a great improvement over the older versions of the M60 and lighter than the 240. New M1A1 Abrams, an armored replacement for uparmoured M114, a Boeing replacement for the AF tanker; there are lots of pruchases that can be made quickly and efficiently. Much better than planning new roads or bridges, since they will be tied up in lawsuits for years.
Posted by: Federale at December 25, 2008 10:54 PM (H1JJq)
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A "new" military sidearm is an excellent idea. Last night after the kids left, I took apart my wife's grandfather's Colt Model 1911 - the one he was issued in world war one, serial No 259313. Complete disassembly requires no tools. The grip screw slots are concave rather than flat so that you can use the rim of a .45 caliber round to back them out. As you take parts off, they become tools! The hammer strut becomes a drift punch with which to remove the sear pin and mainspring housing pin. This 90 year old gun is accurate, simple, reliable and extremely effective.
I also have a Springfield Armory M1911-A1 Mil Spec that's fine except that they "improved" the design adding a kiddie lock in the back spring housing. I have parts on order to get rid of that annoyance. Fortunately, 1911 parts are pretty interchangeable.
John Moses Browning was a genius. If we gave the trigger pullers a choice between a Model 1911 and any 9 mm or .40 caliber handgun on the planet, I know what the smart ones would select.
Posted by: arch at December 26, 2008 01:38 PM (sWq1L)
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December 23, 2008
What's the Difference Between Bill Ayers and Timothy McVeigh?
Competence.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
07:41 PM
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HAH! I linked to you here:
http://thewarpiper.blogspot.com/2008/12/to-point.html
Posted by: Warpiper at December 24, 2008 08:53 AM (AVokL)
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The difference in the eyes of elite media is that Timothy McVeigh was a red neck, lived in a rural area, probably had a 4x4 with a gun rack and shot puppies. Bill Ayers, being from the city and left wing, my god he must be brilliant.
Posted by: Rick at December 24, 2008 09:42 AM (FWmwx)
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McVeigh was honorable at one point in his life.
Posted by: Pablo at December 24, 2008 11:36 AM (yTndK)
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Bill Ayers is alive and Tim McVeigh is dead.
Posted by: GEJ at December 24, 2008 03:53 PM (g2f8B)
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The other difference is that McVeigh wanted to be caught, given his driving a car without a license plate, while Ayers and his gang fought tooth and nail not to be caught. Also McVeigh was happy to be executed while Ayers and his commie friends used every trick in the book, as well as the sympathy of the guild of lawyers, not to be punished. I don't think after release McVeigh would have been given a professoriate post either.
Posted by: Federale at December 25, 2008 10:57 PM (H1JJq)
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Posted by: worldfashionsewe at December 27, 2008 04:40 PM (3IyDH)
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December 22, 2008
Cowed by Sheep
Yes, we've read this elsewhere, but seeing it on the Fox News front page only makes it seem all that much more pathetic:
President-elect Barack Obama has shown almost perfect pitch in crafting his new administration, aptly choosing old hands instead of fresh faces and bringing in the experience he lacks.
But there is one glaring void. Obama has yet to name key intelligence officials to manage the war against terrorism.
And one of the central reasons he hasn't come forward with a pick for one of the top jobs is because he's running into pressure from an unexpected source -- left-wing bloggers.
John Brennan, Obama's chief intelligence adviser and anticipated CIA chief, was recently forced to withdraw his name. There was no drumbeat of opposition to Brennan from the front pages or on cable. Rather, the pick was torpedoed by the blogosphere.
"Apparently there is a lot of pressure on the Obama team from a blog saying that Brennan couldn't be made the director of the CIA because he was involved in torture and renditions, which he wasn't," said Mark Lowenthal, former assistant CIA director.
The turn of events only emphasizes the influence of the Internet on the operation of a president-elect whose campaign was powered in large part by the Web.
It makes sense for politicians to hire staff that understand modern communications, but quite another to let themselves be cowed by the conventional wisdom of Ignorati who typically base their worldview upon carefully self-selected news and partisan half-truths that often shape the blogosphere.
As this report makes clear, Brennan had little or nothing to do with the interrogation methods that the far left has worked themselves into a hissing frenzy over. Nevertheless, the incoming Obama Administration cowered in the face of unreasoning mob rule and allowed fictional offenses to derail a candidates that actual experts felt was well-qualified and perhaps just the person needed at this specific position.
Our real enemies must certainly be licking their lips at the gift they were given by the American electorate.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
10:38 PM
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Ignorati who typically base their worldview upon carefully self-selected news and partisan half-truths that often shape the blogosphere.
Like taking the word of a former assistant CIA director for anything.
Posted by: Malignant Bouffant at December 22, 2008 11:58 PM (ZOEFb)
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Licking their lips,do I hear another bitter repub, The American Electorate gave them 5 of the last 7 elections. The last I knew our Governments not smaller,and und er their expert management were ready for The Great Depression part 2. Also it's your side as usual that lies distorts and has hissy fits!!!
Posted by: D Casey at December 23, 2008 03:26 AM (qm1Mm)
Posted by: Vaultenblogger at December 23, 2008 06:44 AM (HG6DM)
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I thought Obama was one who did not judge by rumours and innuendo, as he certainly did not like rumours about himself and made sure a website was created to counter any "lies". Now he deserts someone based on falsehoods? He listens to blogs? This is not a President but a puppet. Hard choices and representing all the people, and upholding the Constitution is his job - he has failed miserably. I did not vote for Obama because I felt he was more of a celebrity than a man of any conviction. He has now proved it.
Posted by: Krystal at December 23, 2008 07:46 AM (D2TAc)
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"the incoming Obama Administration cowered in the face of unreasoning mob rule"
A preview of things to come? I'm afraid it is.
Posted by: NevadaDailySteve at December 23, 2008 12:10 PM (oba11)
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D. Casey 12/23 3:26
Re: The Great Depression part 2
The credit crises prime mover was FannieMae & FreddieMac. Both government sponsored entities were created by Democrats who also obstructed stronger regulation. I assume you do remember Barack Obama's advisor, Franklin Raines, informing congress that these subprime investments were riskless. You remember that don't you?
Posted by: Rick at December 23, 2008 06:27 PM (FWmwx)
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December 21, 2008
Good News: BB Guns Now Classified By Journalist as Assault Rifles
I sincerely hope than any journalist ignorant enough to write "BB-gun" and "snipers" in the same sentence doesn't have firearms of his own, or else he'll likely end up as another subject of my research at the Media Violence Project (or a Darwin Awards candidate).
Savor the idiocy:
Two alleged BB-gun snipers facing felony charges, including assault with a deadly weapon, used a laser scope and a BB gun that looks like a fully automatic AR-15 assault rifle, according to deputies with the Santa Clarita Valley Sheriff's Station.
The arrests Tuesday night capped a two-month shooting spree with more than two-dozen shootings investigated since Nov. 1.
Victims include a 53-year-old man shot in the head and a 13-year-old girl waiting for a bus, both shot with a BB.
Christian Morfin, 18, of Saugus, and a 17-year-old Canyon Country male were booked at the Sheriff's Station on felony charges of vandalism and assault with a deadly weapon in connection with several shootings.
BB guns are not toys and some air rifles can fire BBs or pellets with more velocity than common handgun calibers. They can indeed kill under certain circumstances. That said, BB guns are not assault rifles even under the already incorrect definition widely used by journalists; do we really need them to re-dumb it downward again?
Update: More evidence that many journalists are simply too incompetent to write about firearms.
In April, officials announced that the police force's 13,500 officers would be armed with the M4s. Chicago Police SWAT teams are already equipped with M4 carbines, but officials say pistol-carrying rank-and-file officers are out-gunned.
Used by the U.S. Marine Corps, the M4 is an assault rifle that fires more shots in less time than a conventional handgun.
The obvious problems with Donovan's story:
- M4 carbines are not commonly used by the U.S. Marine Corps. With the exception of Special Operations forces, the general issue selective combat rifle of the Marine Corps is the M16, a weapon with a barrel almost six inches longer that generates far more bullet velocity and killing power and has a far more effective practical range. The much shorter M4 is prevalent among mounted infantry in the U.S. Army.
- The M4 does not "fires more shots in less time than a conventional handgun." Both police pistols and the M4s used by the CPD are semi-automatic, meaning they have the exact same rate of fire, one shot per trigger pull, as fast as the shooter can pull the trigger.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
03:45 PM
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Good News: BB Guns Now Classified By Journalist as Assault Rifles
Well, not so much (emphasis mine):
a BB gun that looks like a fully automatic AR-15 assault rifle
Posted by: Mike's Dumbmerica at December 21, 2008 04:22 PM (CwxZw)
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You have got to be kidding me!
I have known a couple folks who were so rabidly anti gun and that they went so far as to ask neighbors if they were gun owners. Then they forbid their children from visiting or talking to the "offenders". They had a boy about my age, and my brother and I took him out shooting with us for a couple years, before they found out. They MOVED!
The offenders above were not supervised nor imparted with any moral values by their parents. My Dad did both with us boys. We had BB guns and a Pellet pistol when we were young. About Jr High, my Dad gave us a real gun. It was a .22 Remington single shot. My point is that the parents should have been taken to task.
I went on to score Marksman in the service.
Posted by: Marc Boyd at December 21, 2008 04:38 PM (Zoziv)
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Well, you CAN shoot your eye out, you know. or so I've heard.
Posted by: Vaultenblogger at December 21, 2008 04:47 PM (HG6DM)
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Can you tell what the media is blowing hot air up? Where it all headed?
The interesting thing is the Heller decision put those black rifles at the top of the protected list, ie the citizen militia's arms.
Posted by: bill-tb at December 21, 2008 06:05 PM (7evkT)
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Damn. When I think of all the BB gun wars we used to have as kids, little suspecting we were actually shooting each other with assault weapons. I was hit numerous times being a little slower than some of the older kids and don't seem to have suffered any lasting injuries.
But seriously, if a writer is going to write on a subject, he should at least take some effort to do just a little research.
Posted by: Outrider at December 21, 2008 07:06 PM (eu/JN)
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You'll shoot your eye out!
Posted by: Sissy Willis at December 21, 2008 08:07 PM (cdtTx)
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Bob:
Not to correct you per se, but the M-4, once the forte of SpecOps kids, is NOW the ubiquitous battle rifle here in Iraq.
Reason being is that the size of the full length M-16A2 variant was becoming a danger to the troops in the need for quick dismounting in firefight situations. The Shorty 14.5 Barrel and collapsable stock allows "Joe" to manuveur quickly out of a HMMWV as they are so encumbered by body armor and "Battle Rattle" that a full length "musket" as the A2 is jokingly refered to is a bit@h to get out of the truck with, as it can get hung up easier than a 14 inch 'Shorty.'
Otherwise, Live In Baghdad, Merry Christmas and God Bless the Troops!
Big Country
Posted by: Big Country at December 21, 2008 11:16 PM (vuy4X)
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BB guns are not assault rifles even under the already incorrect definition widely used by journalists; do we really need them to re-dumb it downward again?
Well, you might try working on your reading comprehension first.
Two alleged BB-gun snipers facing felony charges, including assault with a deadly weapon, used a laser scope and a BB gun that looks like a fully automatic AR-15 assault rifle, according to deputies with the Santa Clarita Valley Sheriff's Station.
Notice that: (a) it doesn't say the gun is an assault rifle, it says it looks like an assault rifle, and (b) the description doesn't even come from the reporter but is attributed to the Sheriff's office. (I suppose you can quibble over whether a "fully automatic AR-15" is an AR-15 or an M-16, but, again, you'll have to take it up with the Sheriff.)
Posted by: Kevin T. Keith at December 21, 2008 11:47 PM (kIjU7)
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Kevin, perhaps you shouldn't question the reading comprehension of others, when you can't grasp that the article's headline was "Alleged BB gunmen collared: Teens had assault rifle."
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at December 22, 2008 12:35 AM (HcgFD)
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Guns don't kill people. . . I lay my guns all the time and dare them to do so, but they just lay there and do nothing -
Posted by: Douglas V. Gibbs at December 22, 2008 12:36 AM (CPdDV)
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Wadda ya expect? Libtards HATE (shudder) guns, so there is no surprise that the frantic jibbering of uninformed, ignorant journalists pops up in almost every media item out there. The problem is, they transfer that hysteria to that part of the equaly ignorant sheeple out there too.
Posted by: Tonto at December 22, 2008 01:17 AM (Qv1xF)
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The media loves to whip people up in a frenzy over guns. There was a story printed on the Fox News website in the last few months reprinted from The Daily Mail (UK) that described a man being "gunned down" by a "gas-powered ball bearing pistol". Took me a second to realize they were talking about a BB gun.
Posted by: Mike Gray at December 22, 2008 01:43 AM (fBnZs)
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I was raised around weapons, as were my siblings. A weapon is a tool, which, if improperly used can be harmful. No different than a circular saw.
I have two daughters, now grown, that I put through a 2 day handgun self defense - safety course while they were still teenagers. I also bought them each a 40 S&W sidearm.
My sister, like most anti gun people, felt that her son should be kept insulated from guns, which means he never had any training or contact with firearms.
A short time after my daughters took their firearms course, my sister left her 16 year old son at home while visiting relatives. A friend of her son brought over a revolver over to her house and they played Russian roulette.
He lost.
Sometimes it is simple stupidity or ignorance that kills people.
Posted by: ex-wyo at December 22, 2008 01:50 AM (otiKq)
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If you look at what the Brady Gun Control advocates want, my Browning SA22 is an assault rifle because it is semi automatic, has a pistol grip and a 12 round 22 LR magazine.
The press are fanning the counterintuitive public hysteria over firearms and ignoring the facts. This month's American Rifleman has a piece about the 2007 FBI crime statistics - lowest in 30 years, lowest homicide rate in 40 years. Amazingly, there is a direct correlation between crime and gun bans. Where criminals know their victims have been disarmed by the law, they commit violent crimes with impunity. In states with right to carry laws, they are more cautious.
Posted by: arch at December 22, 2008 08:37 AM (sWq1L)
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Today's so-called "journalists" are very careless with words. This was demonstrated recently in an on-line news story that featured a photograph of a U.S. Navy fleet oiler. The caption beneath the photo identified it as a "battleship".
My late father started my firearms instruction when I was six. Upon going through Navy boot camp firearms familiarization (I won't call it "training"), I hit the bullseye with every round. My instructor stared at me for a moment and then asked: "Who taught you to shoot?" When I told him my dad had trained me since I was a kid, he looked down the firing line for a moment and said: "We could use him here."
The majority of newspeople today have zero firearms experience. They fear firearms, and it's easy to demonize what you fear. A few weekends on the range with a good instructor would change a lot of attitudes. Well, at least perhaps modify a few.
Posted by: Just Askin' at December 22, 2008 08:59 AM (esv00)
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Kevin, perhaps you shouldn't question the reading comprehension of others, when you can't grasp that the article's headline was "Alleged BB gunmen collared: Teens had assault rifle."
Zing!
Headlines are those big bolded things at the top of the article.
That made my morning. I know a bunch of rabid anti-gun folks, and they have some weird logic.
Posted by: brando at December 22, 2008 09:31 AM (qzOby)
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Window glass doesn't fare well under sustained BB gun fire...or so I've heard.
Posted by: torabora at December 22, 2008 10:02 AM (chZf8)
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Not to nitpick here, but this is not entirely true
"The M4 does not "fires more shots in less time than a conventional handgun." Both police pistols and the M4s used by the CPD are semi-automatic, meaning they have the exact same rate of fire, one shot per trigger pull, as fast as the shooter can pull the trigger."
The M4, with a 30 round magazine standard, has a higher sustained rate of fire than a handgun with a 8-20 round magazine. With the accuracy generally demonstrated by LEOs involved in shootings however, that may not be a good thing.
Posted by: essayons at December 22, 2008 10:55 AM (2khrM)
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Essayons, that is actually true. Semiautomatic weapons have the exact same rate of fire.
If they're talking about the the number of BBs that can be fired before a "reload", well, that's just silly.
Cause that's what we're talking about isn't it? A BB gun. Nothing more. No, you really shouldn't shoot someone with a BB gun, but to get wrapped around the axle about what it looks like is goofy. It doesn't matter if it looks like a Dragunov. Or if it has 10 laser sights. It's just a BB gun.
You couldn't even call it "magizine capacity" when it comes to a BB gun. It's just however many you can pour in. "OMG, the BB gun has a magizine capacity of 42!"
Posted by: brando at December 22, 2008 12:07 PM (qzOby)
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Actually I disagree Brando. Though you can not easily kill someone with a BB gun, it is still a very violent act and can send someone to the ER. We had a couple of kids here doing something like this and seriously hurt one of my friends. The kids should be put away.
Posted by: David Caskey at December 22, 2008 05:03 PM (7+boT)
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From the description, this is not a standard BB gun, it is airsoft. While still painful and potentially dangerous, these shoot plastic bbs and not metal ones.
Yes, they still do damage but this is sheer sensationalism and irresponsible journalism. Something that seems to be the norm now.
Stupid kids doing stupid things but not something that requires a felony charge. Talk about overreaction!
Posted by: 6Kings at December 23, 2008 10:48 AM (5ghEP)
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CY,
Firstly - Reporters, from what I understand, seldom write the headlines to their stories. To be accurate you should blame the headline editor for this stupid connections.
Second - You made your accusation in your headline but didn't provide evidence in your article as to the bb gun and assault weapon connection. IMO, you should put your evidence for your charge in your article and I think Kevin was correct to call you on it. I hardly ever click through to linked articles, I don't like to give them the traffic, so it comes off as you are the one with a connection problem.
Thirdly - Are you trying to say someone cannot snipe with a bb gun?
Posted by: Al at December 23, 2008 12:49 PM (ZGtxz)
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You *think* that Kevin was correct? And you base it on the fact that *you* don't bother to read, and how it "comes off" to you? That's not how a logical argument is constructed.
That's just Appeal to Ignorance.
Well, Kevin was incorrect. The article was incorrect about the Assault Weapon. And you're incorrect to defend it. BB guns aren't assault weapons no matter how you slice it. CY knows it, I know it, and I think that even you know it.
Posted by: brando at December 23, 2008 02:08 PM (qzOby)
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Al
I think CY would have been better served by making the connection between his headline and the story explicit, instead of requiring clicking the link to get it.
Posted by: iconoclast at December 24, 2008 02:49 PM (O8ebz)
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Icono,
Exactly my thoughts.
I have no qualms with CY calling the headline to task. In fact, more power to him. The part of the story quoted was clean, is all I'm saying.
If you are going to castigate someone, put the money quote in your article.
Brando,
I don't know what your problem is, but I did read CY's blog post/article. He just didn't back up his claim in his article with the money quote. So I agree with Kevin's read of the article. Go and try to insult me all you want but that won't change CY's problem with his article.
Merry Christmas
Posted by: al at December 24, 2008 09:48 PM (vx3qK)
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6kings - If that's really an airsoft gun than a halfway decent lawyer will get the assault with a deadly weapon charge thrown out of court. The only way it's deadly is if you stick the barrel down someone's throat and force them to choke on the BBs or asphyxiate from the excess CO2.
Posted by: ravenshrike at December 26, 2008 12:34 PM (C63A/)
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December 20, 2008
Name That Loon
Oh, I just love the paranoid.
A computer professional by the name of Mike Connell with close ties to the President died when the single-engine airplane he was piloting
went down on final approach three miles short of the Akron-Canton Airport Friday. Connell played a key role in several conspiracy theories cherished by the far left, and his death immediately led to not-so-subtle claims that his death might not have been an accident.
Folks, there is nothing quite as amusing as the stone-crazy BDS-afflicted attempting to temper their psychosis with just enough deference towards sanity to avoid completely marginalizing themselves. And then there are those who see the line between sanity and insanity and charge leap over it with a hearty, "tally-ho!"
You can feast on all the frothing you want via
Memeorandum, and it certainly is fun to watch the contortions. Ringleader of the Circus of Crazy is once again Larisa Alexandrovna, the same the same
Raw Story "journalist" that insisted President Bush was
plotting an imminent coup.
I feel sorry for these people. When January 20 rolls around and no one is left to oppress them, what will they have to live for?
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
10:46 PM
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1
I read it. He stated he was threatened and afraid to a judge?? I won't write it off immediately as just coincidence. Never know. Many politicians, quite basically, ARE organized crime at a certain level.
Posted by: l at December 21, 2008 12:45 AM (KquNY)
2
What will they have to live for? Easy. They'll simply transfer their hatred to Sarah Palin. She probably killed Connell with her Mind Rays of Eeeee-vil, dontcha know.
Posted by: Vaultenblogger at December 21, 2008 12:50 AM (HG6DM)
3
Connell has just tied the low altitude flying record.
Posted by: arch at December 21, 2008 09:21 AM (sWq1L)
4
thaks... I really needed a good laugh.
Posted by: atadoff at December 21, 2008 09:52 AM (CDlXe)
Posted by: atadoff at December 21, 2008 09:54 AM (CDlXe)
6
Is Larisa a Putin plant to undermine the President?
Posted by: eaglewingz08 at December 21, 2008 10:40 AM (qh8b9)
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I love the one by Larisa Alexandrovna, who keeps repeating over and over that she is not speculating about any sort of conspiracy. She isn't saying it, but, she is thinking it loudly.
Posted by: William Teach at December 21, 2008 10:46 AM (7yTel)
8
Did Jason Leopold assist on Larisa's story or perhaps porky Scott Horton. Horton's alway's good for spreading baseless conspiracy theories which Congressional Democrats love to investigate and the news media splash on page one. These people have no shame.
Posted by: daleyrocks at December 21, 2008 12:33 PM (odYIP)
9
Did Jason Leopold assist on Larisa's story or perhaps porky Scott Horton. Horton's alway's good for spreading baseless conspiracy theories which Congressional Democrats love to investigate and the news media splash on page one. These people have no shame.
Posted by: daleyrocks at December 21, 2008 12:34 PM (odYIP)
10
Oh, man, I have run across this story all over the Left-o-sphere, and very few are saying "folks, there is no conspiracy." They all want some sort of extra special investigation, just to "make sure." I wouldn't be surprised if this story grows serious legs on the left side over the next week or 2.
Of course, since very few of them bother mentioning Christmas, it gives them something to talk about.
Posted by: William Teach at December 21, 2008 03:29 PM (7yTel)
11
Okay, Teach, I need the names and addresses of everyone demanding a special investigation by COB Tuesday. Try to find them without spooking anyone.
Oh, and of course you don't mention this to anyone, as usual, right?
Posted by: Steve Skubinna at December 21, 2008 08:10 PM (Vcyz0)
12
Oh, you know it, Teach.
Why, all those liberal blogs have just killed X-mess, because it's certainly never mentioned in the liberal elite bias media, or any of their advertising.
And the libs aren't talking enough about unicorns & elves & fairies in the sky, either. What's wrong w/ those people?
Posted by: Malignant Bouffant at December 22, 2008 05:30 PM (ZOEFb)
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December 19, 2008
Destroying the Village in Order to Save It
I'd suggest changing his name to FDR, Jr, but I'm saving that insult (and yes, it is an insult) for the next guy.
So thanks for nothing,
President Bailout:
The White House announced a $17.4 billion rescue package for the troubled Detroit auto makers that allows them to avoid bankruptcy and leaves many of the big decisions for the incoming Obama administration.
Speaking from the White House, President George W. Bush said the administration decided against forcing a bankruptcy to compel cost-cutting, in order to avoid the risk that consumers would desert one or more of the companies and touch off an industry collapse, deepening the current economic downturn.
"In the midst of a financial crisis...allowing the U.S. auto industry to collapse is not a responsible course of action," Mr. Bush said.
"Under ordinary economic circumstances, I would say 'this is the price that failed companies must pay' and I would not favor intervening to prevent the auto makers from going out of business," the president said. "But these are not ordinary circumstances."
And so the government is going to steal $17.4 billion more from taxpayers to prolong the inevitable death of
unions companies that don't deserve to live.
For that matter, much of the manufacturing in this country doesn't deserve to live, particularly that created with non-competitive union labor so prevalent in the Northeast and upper Midwest.
The simple fact of the matter is that the U.S. auto industry is not just Ford, Chrysler, and GM, but Honda, Toyota, and other "foreign" manufacturers that build cars here on the mainland United States. What separates the successful companies that aren't asking for a bailout from the leaches grubbing for tax dollars from your already empty wallet? Greedy, bloated, self-serving and uncompetitive union labor, particularly the United Auto Workers (UAW).
Non-union car factories are cranking out the smaller, higher-quality, more fuel efficient fleets that America wants to buy, while the unionized Big Three are cranking out bloated beasts that carry and estimated $2,000 of overhead per vehicle because of concessions the automakers have made the unions over the years in noncompetitive benefits and pensions.
As a result of this bloat, to make their cars competitive on the price point, unionized companies have to remove $2,000 from some other part of that vehicle, affecting the overall quality, durability, fit, finish, and reliability. Detroit is in trouble because they're cranking out cars that are worth less than their competitors, and buyers know it.
President Bailout's latest concession to the damned (and I'll let you choose who the damned are; the companies that are still doomed to failure, or the rest of us who are doomed to ante up for their pointless life support) is just the latest bit of government interference that will make this recession last longer and perhaps dive steeper than simply letting the business cycle naturally remove the weak from the marketplace.
So why are Bush and Congress willing to frantically continue trying to pump water from a dry well? It's all about demographics.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
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1
Yup, they just stole another $85 from each of our wallets... (based on 200 million taxpaying Americans - probably a lower number in reality, meaning even more stolen from your wallet).
Posted by: babj615 at December 19, 2008 01:47 PM (VqUiy)
2
The thing that everyone in these discussions seems to avoid mentioning is the incentives and tax breaks that foreigners are given when they propose placing a new manufacturing facility in the US. The "breaks" are just the tip of the iceberg. Tooling, replacement machines, etc, that may even have been orriginally built in the US and sold overseas run out their tax advantage in that country and sold to the "new" plant in the US as a "new" machine and gets it's value amortized down again...which is a tax scam in reality but works great on the paperwork. Our companies can't get away with that stuff, or get tax breaks and incentives for building. The US gov't always demands top dollar from our companies. And matching those numbers with the proposed LOANS asked by our companies, it's a wash. At least with our companies the money stays home....it doesn't go to Japan.
Posted by: Tonto at December 19, 2008 07:50 PM (Qv1xF)
3
Actually, to be technical, it isn't $17.4 billion MORE, it's just another part of the $700 billion they already agreed to steal from us.
(Thought that would make you feel better.)
Posted by: notropis at December 19, 2008 09:01 PM (KG+gJ)
4
The Government, with it's tax schemes, really does advantage foreign companies in the US. A guy was telling me that the reason foreigners own so many of our gas station is all the tax breaks they get from the Government as foreigners coming to America. Great. Thanks a lot. He says that they transfer the ownership to different family members to keep the gravy train going of foreign tax breaks. See, why are we doing these crazy things?? Politicians. I'm not justifying the auto bailout at all. I'm just saying that every time we have "tax breaks" and "favors" ANYWHERE in the system - it's NOT FAIR!!! And it's especially WRONG when US citizens are disadvantaged for foreign interests or immigrants to our country,etc. We are getting so taken advantage of as US citizens in so many ways... by Government bureaucrats writing taxes and tax breaks and creating an unfair business climate that favors certain groups and classes over others and doesn't create truly free enterprise.
I'm not for the bailout. But I'm also not for all the other tax incentives and breaks that are deals cut that overtax some businesses to give benefits to others at their expense. I"M SICK OF OUR FEDERAL GOVERNMENT!! Especially when it's USA citizens that are constantly getting ripped off for foreigners. (That stuff is going on all the time from what I hear.)
Posted by: l at December 19, 2008 09:12 PM (KquNY)
5
Labor unions have out lived their usefulness. The benefits they once provided are now either mandated by the government or provided by employers to attract and retain a quality, high tech work force. Unions protect workers who under-perform while successful businesses reward workers who over-perform. As a result, products from union shops are less competitive or their companies, less profitable. Remember, businesses do not exist to provide jobs. They exist to provide marketable products and services at a profit.
If the rust belt is such a wonderful economic model, why are 12% of Flint's workers unemployed? And, why should we in Birmingham, where the jobless rate is 4.8%, listen to these pseudo-intellectual Yankees?
Posted by: arch at December 20, 2008 09:24 AM (sWq1L)
6
"The thing that everyone in these discussions seems to avoid mentioning is the incentives and tax breaks that foreigners are given when they propose placing a new manufacturing facility in the US. The "breaks" are just the tip of the iceberg. Tooling, replacement machines, etc, that may even have been orriginally built in the US and sold overseas run out their tax advantage in that country and sold to the "new" plant in the US as a "new" machine and gets it's value amortized down again...which is a tax scam in reality but works great on the paperwork. Our companies can't get away with that stuff, or get tax breaks and incentives for building. The US gov't always demands top dollar from our companies. And matching those numbers with the proposed LOANS asked by our companies, it's a wash. At least with our companies the money stays home....it doesn't go to Japan."
Hey, Tonto, how come those states giving those enormous tax breaks are still solvent? How come your favorites are broke/bankrupt? Maybe those tax breaks aren't so damn large after all. And maybe socialism NEVER F'N WORKS!!!!!!!!!!!
Not even in New York.
Wanna bet the next census shocks the hell outta you blue states? Hint - it won't be from the increase in population there...
Hey, Fluffy, I ain't spam!!!
Posted by: Bill Johnson at December 20, 2008 07:44 PM (fZKwr)
7
I can haz job! From Bob Owens:
For example, on Monday I'm joining a brand new marketing department of a major international high technology company.
They needed more staff, and determined that they could add more people and get more bang for their buck by building a new marketing unit from the ground up in North Carolina, for far less than they could add staff to an existing marketing unit in their California operations. Once they started interviewing, they were further impressed that the quality of resumes here was also significantly higher than they were used to in their California headquarters. That's ten well-paying white collar jobs that California lost and North Carolina gained, and when the time comes to add more people to the marketing unit, which location do you think will have a natural advantage?
And yet, this little nugget of information from the Charlotte (that would be North Carolina) Observer the day after your inane silliness ran:
North Carolina lost jobs at a record pace last month, pushing unemployment to a 25-year high as the outlook for the state darkened amid a deepening recession.
Employers slashed 46,000 jobs in November, more than in any state except Florida, according to data released Friday by the U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics.
By your math, with California losing 10 jobs that North Carolina gained, you would only need about 4599 (presumably blue) states to suffer similar losses, assuming North Carolina were to gain those jobs.
Oh, but the Observer article isn't quite done:
Charlotte-area unemployment rose to 7.1 percent in October, up from 6.9 percent the previous month and from 4.6 percent a year earlier, according to the most recent local data.
The figures contrast with the general view that North Carolina was weathering the downturn better than many other states. The housing market, which led the nation into recession, has held up better here than in states such as Florida, Arizona and Nevada.
And while the unemployment rate has been above the nation's all year – the U.S. rate was 6.7 percent in November – the reason was somewhat positive. North Carolina has continued to attract business expansion, fueling hope among workers elsewhere that they could find opportunity here. That perception sparked population growth and pushed the labor force up faster than employers could create jobs.
But in November, the labor force declined, a sign that some workers grew frustrated and gave up on the job search altogether.
Tell me, Bob: Are there unicorns in your world, and are they Baptist as well?
Posted by: Sir Craig at December 22, 2008 10:47 AM (gC2Sc)
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What Arch doesn't tell you about the utopia of Birmingham, AL is that its unemployment rate was 3% a year ago. So, 4.8% and climbing doesn't look like Birmingham is headed in the right direction.
It should also be noted that 25% of Birmingham's residents live below the poverty line. Thus, the Confederate lifestyle is not necessarily all hushpuppies and mint juleps.
Tonto brings up and excellent point (alluded to by Lind) that isn't discussed enough. All of these Southern states have attracted foreign automakers by offering massive tax breaks and incentives. So, residents of those states get to pay for the training of employees as well as infrastructure costs.
Posted by: OD at December 22, 2008 01:31 PM (Mv/2X)
9
To update the Birmingham jobless rates, let's take a look at this:
Alabama jobless rate jumps again
The unemployment rate for the Birmingham-Hoover Metropolitan Area rose to 5.2 percent in November, up from 3.1 percent last November and 4.7 percent in October.
And I wonder if this has anything to do with Bob's race to the bottom:
Birmingham in bottom 100 for men's, women's health
Keep diggin', brother, you'll find China soon enough.
Posted by: petereugene at December 22, 2008 02:12 PM (825J/)
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Wow, reading ol' Bob wax about economics is almost as entertaining as listening to Bush wax, well about anything. You know the stupid is deep, the cluelessness almost genetic, but you still have to stop and stare, and wonder, how do people this thickheaded manage to go to the bathroom without assistance?
Maybe the next time you get all professor-like on us Bob, you could actually use a fact or two to support your arguments, such as they are. But I hold out little hope for that, you seem to be a keeper of facts the way your face is a keeper of a chin.
Posted by: TooStupidToBlog at December 22, 2008 02:42 PM (vSZli)
11
"A guy was telling me..."
"From what I hear..."
That guy was me. It's hilarious the way I can get your nerves shaken all to hell (heh heh) with just a few well placed lies.
Also, those states aren't exactly "solvent." They're all welfare states sucking on the federal teat. The southern states have been running that scam for a long time now.
Posted by: Satan's Dirty Underwear at December 22, 2008 03:30 PM (ZFh56)
12
Bill J brings up a good point - and the answer is that the states that can afford to give huge incentives to foreign companies to build non-union manufacturing plants get that money from Californians and New Yorkers in the form of federal funds.
Lind argues that we should mandate a higher minimum wage, and increase federal spending in these state so as to keep them from racing us to the bottom. I say screw that, cut 'em off from all federal assistance above their tax base. If they want to compete with India for lowest wage, let 'em.
Posted by: Chasm at December 22, 2008 04:15 PM (G/bUz)
13
I felt that the bail on the financials was necessary. But the bail on the autos stinks. They likely will need money but not without significant concessions from the unions. I don't think that some of you who oppose bailouts understand how close we are to a financial meltdown. The result could be worse that the depression if we don't allow government to do something.
Posted by: David Caskey at December 22, 2008 05:00 PM (7+boT)
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Wow... that was really remarkable, Bob. Most people as ignorant and mendacious as you at least TRY to keep their ignorance and mendacity well-hidden... but you put it out there for everyone to see... and see it they did. Sadly, No!'s refutation of your every single point is brilliant.
For future reference, Bob: the plural of "anecdote" is NOT "data." While I'm glad you found a job (enabling you to purchase your OWN outdoor cooking equipment,) you are now aware that your neighbors are losing their jobs at an alarming rate... and that North Carolina is one of those Wingnut Welfare states that receives 8% more federal dollars than it contributes... pretty much the OPPOSITE of everything you posted.
Posted by: Amy Alkon's Testicles at December 22, 2008 10:34 PM (rMAtN)
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Gee, Bob, what happened to my insightful comments, you old lover of free speech, you?
Posted by: Malignant Bouffant at December 22, 2008 11:49 PM (ZOEFb)
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huh...all this union bashing...were the financial companies that went down unionized? No.
I think the original article's placing blame on FDR is obviously false. He spins a good yarn, but it is far too simplistic.
Maybe there was something else going on here? The Big Three are making better vehicles, but like many Americans, I remember the years of "planned obsolescence" and decades of unreliable cars and simply refuse to buy an inferior and gas guzzling car.
First, the housing crisis saw many people lose 40% of their house values. Then, a run up in commodities and the weak dollar policy combined to make gas very expensive--and, at the same time, 40% of people's stock-market based 401(k) retirement funds disappeared in two months. So, after taking two 40% hits, many of us are realizing how bad it is to be in large amounts of credit card debt with no savings...so, buying a new car is out of the question, especially a gas guzzling one. Hey, 10 mpg is still more than twice as expensive as 25 mpg, even if gas is back down under $2!
Of course the union agreements cost the big three more money. But to say "oh the poor big 3, they have teh unionz" is just patently false.
Don't treat your readers like idiots, Yankee.
Posted by: fred at December 23, 2008 07:49 AM (pwJ/J)
17
If the average GM car takes 22.15 person-hours to build, and even if by some accounting unknown to art or science each GM worker were actually, in real life and not in some conservative crack dream, making $73 per hour (totaling $1,616.95 in labor costs per car), then how full of crap does the $2,000 figure appear to be?
Posted by: toyboat at December 23, 2008 11:48 AM (Un9gF)
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boat, you're as ignorant as the day is long.
The $2,000/car figure doesn't come from salary of the workers alone, but from the salary plus the benefits GM has to pay UAW pensioners, widows, survivors, and other dependents.
As GM pays more than twice as many non-working UAW dependents as current workers, the $2,000/car figure isn't surprising at all.
Arrogant and ignorant is no way to go through life, son.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at December 23, 2008 07:17 PM (HcgFD)
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December 16, 2008
Closure? Adam Walsh Murder Case Closed After 27 Years
Ottis Toole, always a suspect, has officially been named as the murderer of Adam Walsh. Walsh was killed and decapitated in 1981, and Toole signed a confession in 1983 that he later recanted. Toole, a convicted serial killer, died in prison in 1996. The case is now finally closed after all these years.
If you're much younger than I am—say under 30—you may not know much about his disappearance and murder, but you still live in a world profoundly touched by the Adam's kidnapping and murder, in ways big and small.
Adam's death spurred his parents to help create the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children.
In addition, President Bush signed the
Adam Walsh Child Protection and Safety Act in 2006 to help track sex offenders.
John Walsh has helped put over a thousand fugitive behind bars as the host of
America's Most Wanted. Copycat programs by local news media and law enforcement agencies have netted thousands of fugitives more.
Walmart named the nearly ubiquitous "Code Adam" missing child alert they created after him. If you've ever had a child wander away in a store, it is this procedure that locks the store down and hopefully keeps predators from being able to escape with them. Pictures of missing kids on milk cartons. Dedicated missing persons units in large police departments. Increased security in schools, malls, and elsewhere. All have their roots in the agony of the Walsh family, and their tireless advocacy to try to make sure that other families don't have to experience what they did.
I'm certain there is never real closure with the death of a child, but perhaps knowing that Adam's case is finally closed can bring some peace to a family that has done so much to keep others from feeling a similar loss.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
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For better or worse the Adam Walsh murder and John Walsh's crusade afterward were also a big part of creating the climate of much greater fear that parents and children live in today. Studies have shown that the control parents expect to maintain over their children's activities is vastly higher today than 30 years ago. Children are taught a high level of suspicion and fear of strangers as well. The loss of a child is a horrific thing - but I would argue that the cost to children in terms of cultural changes in order to avoid events that actually are extemely rare has been high.
Posted by: Gasminder at December 17, 2008 06:25 AM (sKYE9)
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One thing was never in question with Toole - he was a sick pervert, one of the most disgusting characters to gain attention in the 20th century. My question is why suddenly have authorities decided a man who died in '96 who lied every chance he got, confessed and recanted to this crime and was partners to one of the biggest liar/recanters (Henry Lee Lucas) in the annals of murder... why do we suddenly decide "he's the one"? I've read numerous accounts of this "late breaking story" and not one has revealed what solid evidence finally brings them to this conclusion. I would think the only thing to ease my mind as a parent would be DNA evidence that proved beyond a reasonable doubt but all accounts I see say all DNA evidence was long gone. Any answers?
Posted by: Don Welles at December 17, 2008 06:53 AM (cbDKt)
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Don Welles, that has been my question, too. No mention of why now, it has just been "case is closed."
Posted by: Stoutcat at December 17, 2008 09:43 AM (kKdtK)
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From the reports I've seen/read, the closure of this case is due to a new police chief in the controlling jurisdiction (Hollywood, I think). He took a look at the still open case, read the file, and drew "obvious conclusions".
Posted by: PhyCon at December 17, 2008 10:27 AM (4od5C)
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Aside from the closure the Walch family may be experiencing, the fact that the rate of murderers caught is even worse than it was in 1969. Even with all the techno advances we see on CSI TV programs, only 61% of murders are solved nowadays vs, 93% back in 1969. The numbers are troubling although I'm very happy that we still continue to get these bad guys off the street.
Posted by: Tonto (USA) at December 17, 2008 12:49 PM (Qv1xF)
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To say that John Walsh is responsible for the higher level of suspicion in today's culture is ridiculous. It's the evil that has arisen in this increasingly sex-obsessed and violent culture that has caused REASONABLE response of suspicion. Do you lock your doors at night?? Why?? Because of John Walsh?? Or because of the very REAL threat of someone committing a crime??
That's such a copout to blame the victims and the victim-advocates instead of the criminals for the rise in suspicion and awareness.
Maybe you could think it through and apologize. Please don't blame the victims. Blame the criminals.
God bless the Walsh family.
Posted by: l at December 17, 2008 08:58 PM (KquNY)
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If anyone's interested, there's an account from someone who worked with John Walsh over at Grand Rants:
http://grandrants.wordpress.com/2008/12/18/adam-walsh-report-whats-wrong-with-this-story/
Posted by: Stoutcat at December 18, 2008 12:03 PM (kKdtK)
8
how can you close a case withiut the body of
the child? i would want to know where my childs
body is ,so i can put him to rest before
closing the case
Posted by: kelly mills at December 18, 2008 05:40 PM (xs+31)
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"Maybe you could think it through and apologize. Please don't blame the victims. Blame the criminals."
Please try to read the comment before criticizing. I did not blame the victims, I said "For better or worse the Adam Walsh murder and John Walsh's crusade afterward were also a big part of creating the climate of much greater fear that parents and children live in today" and I stand by that statement.
Further - I'd argue that there is no greater risk today than there was 30 years ago - instead there is a greater PERCEPTION of risk due to the enhanced media coverage which was driven in SOME part by the events described.
And in answer to your question - no I do not lock my doors as night even though I reside in the 4th largest city in the nation. Never got in the habit due to a rural upbringing and haven't started it now due to my opinion that locks just keep honest people honest. If someone wants in your house they will enter it - however if I am at home they are quite unlikely to leave it in a vertical position.
Posted by: Gasminder at December 19, 2008 11:35 AM (sKYE9)
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Sincerely,
I hope that the discovery of adam walsh"s killer will bring closer to that murder case, and that all the work that Americas most wanted has done over the years will be recognized, and that John Walsh can be seen as a crusader and a fighter for the rights of crime victims,
Truely,
Bob Cline
Posted by: bob at December 22, 2008 02:05 AM (GAf+S)
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December 15, 2008
Proofers Dismissed Again
As they did last week, the U.S. Supreme Court today dismissed without comment a case challenging Barack Obama's citizenship based upon a claim that he was not born a U.S. citizen.
A blogger who knows a bit more about the Court than I
explains why:
In his appeal, Wrotnowski claimed that because Obama's father was a Kenyan-born British subject, the president-elect does meet the Constitution's requirement that the president be a "natural born citizen" of the United States. Obama was born in Hawaii in 1961. His mother was a U.S. citizen, born in the United States.
Many legal analysts questioned Wrotnowski's argument.
"The law has always been understood to be, if you are born here, you're a natural born citizen," said Thomas Goldstein, founder of the Scotusblog.com Web site and a lawyer who has argued numerous cases before the high court. "And that is particularly true in this case, when you have a U.S. citizen parent like Barack Obama's mother."
This dismissal is unlikely to dampen the hostility of those who oppose Obama based upon various citizenship conspiracies, some of which are represented in still active cases.
I'm sticking with the same position that I've held: I think Obama is a citizen, but that he could diffuse a lot of the Proofers if he worked with the State of Hawaii to release of his long-form vault copy birth certificate to a review by independent documentation experts. I'm also just as certain that Obama won't take that step for a multitude of reasons, most of which have to do with his arrogance, and not being somehow unqualified due to the circumstances of his birth.
For someone who cultivated a myth of being a post-partisan candidate, he sure seems intent on antagonizing the frazzled of fringe of both ends of the political spectrum.
Considering how slowly the Secret Service
responded to events in Baghdad, that might not be such a wise idea.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
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Something we may be overlooking. It is possible he does not want to release the long-form birth certificate because he does not know for sure what it says. After all, nobody can remember where they were born (unless you're *really* special). Plus his relatives have been on record saying he was born in Kenya (although I would credit that more to them wanting to take credit for his fame than to actual knowledge of events, i.e. how many "Birthplaces of Jesse James" exist out there)
This is a controversy he can easily ignore, since he is the child of a US citizen, he's legit. (although I still would like to see the certificate)
Posted by: Georg Felis at December 15, 2008 11:22 PM (i5bRG)
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SCOTUS has now prevented itself from acknowleding the question whether Obama is or is not a “natural born citizen” (as distinguished from “citizen”) three times and counting: First before the Nov 4 general election and twice before the Dec 15 vote of the College of Electors. Other cases on the same question are at, or are heading to, SCOTUS. Whether SCOTUS ultimately decides if Obama is or is not a “natural born citizen” only after the Electors vote, only after Congress acts on the Electors’ vote, prior to Obama’s inauguration, or only after Obama’s inauguration, SCOTUS will have to decide — or the people and/or the military will. The issue no longer is Obama. The issue is SCOTUS.
Posted by: Ted at December 15, 2008 11:59 PM (5MSHI)
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Seems to me this could be easily cleared up by simply producing the document in question.
To not do so, and in fact fight every attempt to do so, doesn't speak well of Obama.
Posted by: Conservative CBU at December 16, 2008 01:25 AM (M+Vfm)
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This hospital says that Barry was born in Hawaii.
http://www.earthfrisk.com/blog/?p=135
Posted by: 51773 at December 16, 2008 02:02 AM (fPULd)
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This hospital says that Obama was born in Hawaii.
http://www.earthfrisk.com/blog/?p=135
Posted by: 51773 at December 16, 2008 02:04 AM (fPULd)
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My belief is that yes, he is a U.S. citizen and no, he does not wish to establish a precedent of considering himself as being accountable to anyone for anything.
Posted by: Bill G. at December 16, 2008 06:31 AM (d3q4H)
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I believe that his grandmother believes he was born in Kenya. I would say that that is a more reliable belief.
Posted by: Wayne P at December 16, 2008 10:15 AM (Ndirp)
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A few months after his inauguration, this challenge will go forth, again his certificate unveiled, and lo and behold, BHO will disclose that he was not a citizen at birth.
The next step will be a call to his supporters to uphold his presidency, creating a divided nation.
Buzz Windrip and his followers will cease control of all vital aspects of the US infrastructure.
I may also warn you that the "run on guns" is not all crazy conservative Republicans either. Windrip's Corpos in-waiting are stocking up too.
Posted by: buzzyw at December 16, 2008 03:09 PM (W5oMo)
9
LEROY JENKINS!!!11!
OK, the HI flunkies swear on a stack of bibles he was born there and are willing to poop out a COLB saying so, BFD. I don't trust their word as far as I can spit, but, ok for argument's sake, let's say He was born in HI and was a natural citizen in 1961. What about the claim he had to be an Indonesian citizen to attend public school there? Indonesia does not recognize dual citizenship, raising the problem of renouncing/defaulting on US citizenship IOT attend school in Indonesia. Naturalizing upon return leaves one inelligable for the office of POTUS no? We deserve an answer.
How did he get a passport that would get him into Pakistan when US citizens were restricted from travel there? What is on that passport? We deserve an answer.
Renouncing US citizenship to go nancing about Indonesia, Pakistan and Kenya in a sheet with a towel on your head? Fine, knock yourself out. Want to be POTUS after that? FUCK YOU!! The rules say you can't. US citizenship is one of the most precious goals on this planet and if you want to take it that lightly, well, the risk is you can't be POTUS, DEAL.
What is going to happen in this country two years into his reign when Indonesia or Kenya begin pressuring the US president for military/taxpayer intervention in Africa based on his newly discovered dual citizenship and familial responsibilities to his half brother living in a mud hut on $12.00 a year? You geniuses thought about that yet?
This question should have been lined out months ago and our entire corps of corrupt lazy pols let it get to this point. It all starts with the long-form birth record.
OT, the state of HI does not accept the COLB for land purchase deals for indiginous peoples. Only the long form BC will do because only the long form establishes parental lineage.
I give in that the higher (slightly) percentage is on the side of HI birth legality. I think it likely that somewhere along the line he played loose with the rules and as a result it can be interpreted that he forfeited his natural born US rights. Somewhere in his long form BC, school records or passport trail may lay the answer. It may not. Either way, we deserve to know. It starts with the HI birth certificate.
And this makes me a Troofer? I don't think so.
Posted by: Smokin at December 16, 2008 07:43 PM (BZfBT)
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Since the Supreme Court has now prevented itself from acknowledging the question of whether Barack H. Obama is or is not an Article II "natural born citizen" based on the Kenyan/British citizenship of Barack Obama's father at the time of his birth (irrespective of whether Barack Obama is deemed a "citizen" born in Hawaii or otherwise) as a prerequisite to qualifying to serve as President of the United States under the Constitution -- the Court having done so three times and counting, first before the Nov 4 general election and twice before the Dec 15 vote of the College of Electors -- it would seem appropriate, if not necessary, for all Executive Branch departments and agencies to secure advance formal advice from the United States Department of Justice Office of Legal Counsel as to how to respond to expected inquiries from federal employees who are pledged to "support and defend the Constitution of the United States" as to whether they are governed by laws, regulations, orders and directives issued under Mr. Obama during such periods that said employees, by the weight of existing legal authority and prior to a decision by the Supreme Court, believe in good faith that Mr. Obama is not an Article II "natural born citizen".
Posted by: Ted at December 17, 2008 02:41 AM (5MSHI)
11
Ted,
Can't find the '.' on your keyboard?
Posted by: Todd at December 17, 2008 06:16 AM (AOW76)
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"the people and/or the military will."
What??? You hoping for a coup???
Get some perspective, Ted. Barack Obama, natural born US citizen, born to a US citizen mother on US soil, has been duly elected President of the United States.
I think the voters made a big mistake, and I think Obama's an arrogant jerk, but, hey, that's how a democracy works, and now he's going to take office on January 20.
And there will be no military coup to remove him from office.
Posted by: notropis at December 17, 2008 11:16 PM (81VGH)
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Bob, Obama won't produce this because he feels he doesn't have to answer silly questions that have been clearly adjudicated. This is quite similar to tax protestors who use the same arguments continually in federal court to "prove" why they shouldn't file a 1040. The same arguments are used, are slapped down repeatedly, and the plaintiffs get fined for frivolous lawsuits. The arguments still continue, though.
Posted by: Brad S at December 18, 2008 09:53 AM (X/d4D)
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December 14, 2008
Iraqi Journalist Throws Shoes At Bush in Baghdad
The Secret Service was apparently taking a nap:
Bush got a size-10 reminder of the fervent opposition to his policies when a man threw two shoes at him -- one after another -- during a news conference with Iraq Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki.
"This is the end!" shouted the man, later identified as Muntadar al-Zeidi, a correspondent for Al-Baghdadiya television, an Iraqi-owned station based in Cairo, Egypt.
Bush ducked both throws. Neither leader was hit. In Iraqi culture, throwing shoes at someone is a sign of contempt; Iraqis whacked a statue of Saddam Hussein with their shoes after U.S. Marines toppled it to the ground in 2003.
"All I can report," Bush joked of the incident, "is a size 10."
White House Press Secretary Dana Perino, however, was hit in the eye with a microphone as security guards scrambled to restrain al-Zeidi.
I saw the video of the event in NBC in a breaking news report, and was stunned that the Secret Service was so slow in responding, allowing the journalist to hurl first one shoe, and then another, at least a full second and perhaps several seconds later.
Granted, shoes aren't know to be lethal projectiles, but my point is that from the angle shown, he seems like he would have had time to
hurl a grenade before anyone intervened.
I'm sure progressives are having a good chuckle over this, but rather doubt they'll find similar security breaches amusing when Obama takes over in January.
Update: linked added to 2005 grenade attack on Bush, thanks to a reminder by Jeremy in the comments.
Hot Air now has the video.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
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Does anyone remember the grenade tossing incident when Bush was in Europe? I seem to recall that story disappeared rather rapidly and I never heard another word about it. I figured the Secret Service would run a tighter ship than that.
Posted by: Jeremy at December 14, 2008 02:25 PM (8wLQK)
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The man will no doubt be praised by Olby, and send shivers up Chris' legs...
Posted by: Conservative CBU at December 14, 2008 03:43 PM (M+Vfm)
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I took was shocked how long it to the SS to respond. I would think there would be at least 2 body men who covered bush even after a while only one guy made it to bush. Also I would think they would secure the prez to a safe room until it was clear it was not a 1st phase attack.
Posted by: BadMin at December 14, 2008 04:30 PM (nfppY)
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Everyone was searched and stripped of all personal items prior to gaining entry. The shitbag threw his shoes because that was all he was able to get in there with.
Posted by: ccoffer at December 14, 2008 06:11 PM (NSX98)
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And a "military" or strong SS appearance would have been "off-the-message".
I expect the LameStreamMedia to claim the whole thing was a plant.
Posted by: Larry Sheldon at December 14, 2008 06:36 PM (OmeRL)
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The ISU(International Shoes Organization)reported that the incident considered an insult to all free shoes in the world!
Posted by: M.S at December 14, 2008 07:25 PM (Z1ajF)
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If any Iraq journalist had thrown a shoe at Saddam back in the day, Hussein would not have responded with a joke about size 10's. The journalist and probably his family as well would have been tortured and killed. That small point will be overlooked by the MSM, of course, as it has been ignored by them all along. Heck, the guy will become a media hero. He might get a job offer from MSNBC.
Posted by: Donna V. at December 14, 2008 09:43 PM (+oitQ)
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Heads should roll at the Secret Service.
Posted by: Federale at December 14, 2008 11:35 PM (H1JJq)
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I've said it before, I'll say it again.
I think the SS was doing what they were told to do.
And that what they were told to do was about right.
Posted by: Larry Sheldon at December 15, 2008 10:29 AM (OmeRL)
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Any "journalist" within Iraq was a paid member of the Baath under Saddam so, no, there was not much shoe throwing going on and family, friends and neighbors would all have paid the price if there were so there has been a modest improvement on that score. Also, we might recall that Saddam put a mosaic of Bush Sr on the floor of an airport so his mug would be constantly insulted by pedestrian traffic. Of course if you pay attention to what they walk on in that part of the world it is easy to understand why shoe assault is supposed to be a grave insult. Saddams images were shoed. Bush showed his usual calm, even keel under this moronic act. Even as the bailout BS makes me angry at him and his, the guy still knows how to handle himself under pressure. I wonder how Barry will respond to attack by shoe, eclair or truck bomb. As the guy has never met a serious challenge in his life I don't expect much.
Posted by: megapotamus at December 15, 2008 11:35 AM (LF+qW)
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No doubt in my mind that the M/E media will make a big deal out of this.....because that is a very big insult. Bush should have marched his ass down there and punched the guy. Now that would be newsworthy.
Posted by: Tonto (USA) at December 15, 2008 12:00 PM (Qv1xF)
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The man is a Journalist, and is emblamatic of journalists.
It's a perfect example of how deeply rooted BDS is within the ranks of the media. And how much grace and adulthood they have. Most forums and threads feel that this behavior nearly perfectly represents them. Their only lament is that he wasn't struck.
Reason #4839 that nobody can say that the media is impartial.
Posted by: brando at December 15, 2008 03:07 PM (qzOby)
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Did anybody else watching the videos of the incident get the idea that the other journalists in the area (yeah, the same ones brandi was prattling about) were beating on the perp pretty hard until the SS and others saved his ass for him?
Posted by: Larry Sheldon at December 15, 2008 05:04 PM (OmeRL)
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December 12, 2008
Granholm Calls Senate Refusal of Auto Bailout "un-American"
I don't think that word means what she thinks it means:
Michigan Gov. Jennifer Granholm (D) said it was "un-American" for senators to have voted against approving a bailout of troubled automakers last night, saying their vote may cause a recession to become a depression.
"It is unacceptable for this un-American, frankly, behavior of these U.S. senators to cause this country to go from a recession into a depression," Granholm said during a radio interview Friday morning.
"Un-American" is forcing taxpayers to foot the bill for the failures of corporations and unions to achieve a balance that allows them to compete on a level playing field, without asking the referee to cheat for them.
These companies will go bankrupt.
This is not a bad thing.
A former President once said that "the business of America is business." Rewarding good business practices and allowing bad businesses to fail instead of leeching of the public teat is why the United States economy is—and remains— the most powerful economic engine in history of the human race.
Forcing American taxpayers to prop-up bad businesses is not an American value, and it is rather sad Gov. Granholm isn't aware of that.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
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I do so wish she would go back to Canada.
Posted by: Jeremy at December 12, 2008 05:00 PM (PXq+l)
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Buy a Hyundai, Jennifer.
Posted by: zhombre at December 12, 2008 05:14 PM (f34tO)
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Isn't she holding a single state depression?
Posted by: tarpon at December 12, 2008 07:13 PM (7evkT)
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I'm an American, and I don't approve of the government taking money extorted from me to give to companies flailing because of their own mismanagement coupled with uncontrolled union rapaciousness.
The banks I can see, as much as it stuck in my craw, since we have to keep credit liquid. The auto companies... well, where they are right now is precisely what Chapter 11 was designed for. They need to restructure, renegotiate labor contracts, jettison bad practices, and dump incompetent management. They don't need my money to do that.
The sad thing is, I'm about ready to buy a new car, which is what the automakers need to have happen a lot more times. GM and Ford are way down on the list for me.
Posted by: Steve Skubinna at December 12, 2008 07:57 PM (mfdQL)
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Funny how it is that the states in the worst shape, are all run by democrats...
Posted by: Conservative CBU at December 12, 2008 08:13 PM (M+Vfm)
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Chapter 11 is the only long term salvation.
Posted by: PA at December 12, 2008 09:12 PM (Z0HFQ)
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Gov. have you ever read THE CONSTITUTION OF THE UINITED STATES? These bailouts are totally unconstitutional. But what the H___ that doesn't matter to Democrats!
Posted by: Fearless at December 12, 2008 09:51 PM (iBQbQ)
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As a resident of Michigan Jenny Granholm is the worst governor. She takes all the tax money from those of us on the west side of the state and sends it to Detroit. She singlehandly along with democrats in the state house are digging the recession deeper. The Democrats in this state have raised business taxes to the point buisinesses are leaving or closing in droves. One of her latest plans is to raise the state gas tax higher than what it is.
Those of us in Michigan keep hoping the Obamamessiah would take her to DC.
When she railed against the senate for not bailing out the big 3 it just shows how far in the pocket of the UAW she is. Someone please take her away before she totally destroys Michigan.
Posted by: Swede at December 13, 2008 09:17 AM (zP04/)
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Granholm really believes what she is saying and, like most liberals, does not believe in the Laffer curve. Here's what I blogged about her back in May (based on a Wall Street Journal article) in a post that was actually devoted to slamming Mike Huckabee:
"Mike’s solution, massive tax hikes and greater government control of the economy, is being tried out right now in Michigan, where Democrat governor Jennifer Granholm shut down the state government last year until the Legislature approved Michigan’s biggest tax hike in a generation.
What are the results? Six months later one-third of the expected revenues have vanished as the state’s economy continues to struggle. Income tax collections are falling behind estimates, as are property tax receipts and those from the state’s transaction tax on home sales. Michigan is now in the 18th month of a state-wide recession, and the unemployment rate of 6.9% remains far above the national rate of 5%."
Posted by: Robert www.neolibertarian.com at December 13, 2008 12:06 PM (KF4ju)
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I agree 100%.
At the same time I wish the government would stop trying to tell the automotive industry what it should make. Safety is one thing, but requiring a fleet mpg rating? The saying: "Too many cooks spoil the broth," has real meaning here.
I also wish the Big 3 had had a little larger cajones when they negotiated with the UAW. Having workers paid full salary to sit around and do nothing or work rules so strict that a worker can't be moved from one area of a plant ot another where he is needed more is beyond ridiculous. But then is 2200 pages of labor rules.
Posted by: joated at December 13, 2008 08:16 PM (I4yBD)
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My sister worked in a non-union position (the Medical Dept.) of a GM plant which closed 2 years ago.
All you need to know is that the "right" to smoke on the assembly line and free tampons in the ladies' rooms were among the things included in the contract. If a worker came in with a scratch and demanded paid time off, my sister learned not to raise a fuss. If she did, the union rep would be in her office screaming in her face 10 minutes later. When the workers had to start paying a $5 co-pay for doctor's visits, they complained bitterly. People turned up to work drunk and stoned and weren't fired - because they couldn't be fired. These were high school graduates making $70,000 a year when you factored in the benes. My sister said they seemed to not have the slightest idea of how the rest of the country operated.
Fat-cat Wall Streeters running Ponzi schemes and corrupt pols are coming in for a well-deserved drubbing these days. But they're not the only ones with king-sized senses of entitlement. The members of the UAW were just as insulated from the realities of free-market economics.
Posted by: Donna V. at December 13, 2008 08:41 PM (o5sBi)
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"As a resident of Michigan Jenny Granholm is the worst governor."
I'm in Illinois. Sorry, we have a lock on that position.
I'm a conservative but I say bail 'em out. Everybody whines about the union, and they have done their part, and supposedly poor decisions by management, and they have done their part too, but the government itself is partly to blame.
I don't think our government is smart enough to help them, temporarily, without creating another mess, but the fallout from a failed domestic auto industry would be FAR worse than whatever the government can cook up.
Sure, chapter 11 is designed to help a failing company restructure, so, where are all the successful companies that have gone through chapter 11? There are far less of those than companies that became irrelevant or eventually closed. Chapter 11 may keep you going for a little while longer, but for something as massive as the automobile industry the consequences would be dire.
The government eventually made a profit off of Chrysler's bailout a decade ago, there's hope (how's that for a buzzword?) that they can do something we won't regret this time.
Posted by: DoorHold at December 14, 2008 12:01 PM (DA32L)
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Doorhold,
Sorry when I wrote that I was so sick of seeing Jenny G on all the local newscasts that I forgot about the Helmet-haired one. My condolences to you. Maybe you can take Jenny for your new governor. We just want her the hell out of office and preferably out of the state.
I have relatives who are yoopers in in da UP and Jenny totally ignores that part of the state. They live in Houghton and identify more with Wisconsin than Jenny and her Detroit only politics.
Posted by: Swede at December 14, 2008 01:57 PM (upace)
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The bailouts will fail utterly. The only good things they could possibly achieve for the economy at large is to make the economic pain shallower but longer lasting. These things intervention can achieve only with the utmost skill, knowledge and virtuous intent. These necessities do not obtain. DO NOT support the bailouts; NONE of the 23-odd acts of piracy going by that name. They are a monstrosity and nothing else. If you know this now without having to be re-instructed in the facts of economic life you will lose less and earn more. If you must be instructed AGAIN in the poison of socialism you burden the nation at large with your stupidity. Looks like that is the way things are going across the board which is unsurprising given the state of ignorance today but if you think you are a conservative and are pro-bailout you are in total and systemic contradiction and will regret it terribly, the sooner the better.
Posted by: megapotamus at December 15, 2008 11:44 AM (LF+qW)
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Debunking the Proofers
I'd love to see Obama ask the state of Hawaii to produce his long-form birth certificate. While there is no procedural mechanism in place as some have noted before, that is merely a matter of process, not a legal hurdle.
Anyway, I
took a stab at debunking the common "Proofer" claims in an article at Pajamas Media.
Do you think it sufficiently makes the case to the rational people who have been misled by the half-truths of the proofers? And is there
anything that can ever be done to convince those conspiracy theorists that they are wrong?
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
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"Do you think it sufficiently makes the case to the rational people who have been misled by the half-truths of the proofers?"
These "rational" people of which you speak, would that be the ones that buy into Gorbalwarming?
The ones that buy stuff from spam? That believe a bigger penis is the solution to all of life's problems?
The ones that buy junk cars every two years because their image would be damaged if they don't.
The ones that run up bills that they have no hope or intention of paying?
In a word, no I don't think the case has been made for those people. I don't think it is "makeable".
"And is there anything that can ever be done to convince those conspiracy theorists that they are wrong?"
They elected Obama because Affirmative Action is SUCH a good thing. What else can I say.
Posted by: Larry Sheldon at December 12, 2008 08:57 AM (OmeRL)
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I am not one of those Bush lied men died, or Obama was born in TimBuckToo people. However I feel all candidates should prove where they were born, and most especially when requested to do so. I could care less if it would or would not convince conspirary theorists.
Posted by: Rick at December 12, 2008 11:40 AM (FWmwx)
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There are only three consitutional qualifications to be president, all three are satisfied by proof of birth. I do not understand why the states do not ask for evidence prior to allowing a person on the state ballot.
Posted by: davod at December 12, 2008 01:30 PM (GUZAT)
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Well I'd normally dismiss the conspiracy folks, but there's one very large elephant in this room. It's very easy to shut them up, get Hawaii to release the document, yet he spends money sealing his records. Why?
People are saying "but Hawaii doesn't do this for normal folks" however these aren't normal circumstances, this is the Constitutional requirements for the highest executive office in our nation.
I had to submit to all kinds requirements when I changed jobs, I had to fill out an I-9 proving my citizenship, undergo investigation into my past, etc. and I won't have anything close to the power and access to information that the President has.
Why is Obama exempt?
Also cfbleachers makes a good point:
"The second element here has to do with some of the rather “unique” ways in which the Obama campaign treated what Al Gore has coined as “inconvenient truths”. I haven’t the faintest clue or notion what is contained within the transcripts of the higher education institutions that might cause some discomfort. Nor do I have the faintest clue what would or could be contained within the medical records. I don’t know what we might find in the full and unfettered review of the documents that Stanley Kurtz went looking for and was blocked, impeded, stalled, hindered and delayed.
However, I do know this…if I had a witness on the stand who began to suddenly become evasive, clearly wanted me to move on to another subject…I knew I was on to something that needed further exploration."
Posted by: Scott at December 12, 2008 03:42 PM (z2S93)
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You sure are taking some lumps there on PJM, CY. I agree with you in general that The One simply needs to make the request/demand of Hawaii to release the document(s). However, it is possible he is letting this fever run its course until it spikes highest. Then he will release the document(s) and gain even more marginalization of 'the right' in general instead of just the kooks.
The guy won an election that, by all rights, should have gone to Hillary. I wouldn't put it past him to use this approach to try and get Blago-gate off the news.
Posted by: PhyCon (formerly Mark) at December 12, 2008 04:04 PM (4od5C)
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Ya just lost me, Bob.
I posted on your last attempt to raise this issue that I thought those that kept raising it on both sides are akin to the 9/11 "truthers." Since you continue to bring it up, I have no alternative but to place you in that category.
It's been a lot of fun, and we've had some good discussions, but I've had enough wacko conspiracy theories.
Fare thee well.
Posted by: ConservativeWanderer (formerly C-C-G) at December 12, 2008 06:09 PM (oGgom)
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So, Conservative Wanderer, those who attempt to debunk conspiracy theories are also guilty of spreading them? What other ingenious logical conclusions can you provide? That rape victims cause rape? That fire fighters promote arson? That FEMA enables natural disasters?
Bye bye. Door, ass, BOOM!
Posted by: Steve Skubinna at December 12, 2008 08:24 PM (mfdQL)
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Short answer: Nope you will never convince them.
Long version at my blog
Posted by: DaTechGuy at December 13, 2008 01:20 AM (rcakW)
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CY,
To answer your question, no, your piece did not make a sufficient case that anyone’s been misled — other than yourself. Let me give you one example: You asserted, “The problem with this theory is that no one has been able to provide any credible evidence that Barack Obama was born anywhere other than Hawaii.” However, you failed to substantiate this assertion with empirical evidence. And if you point to the worn-out COLB as your proof, I would appreciate it if you could point me to the Hawaiian statute that authorizes the use of COLBs and I would ask you to explain why Obama sidestepped Hawaii’s statutory provision for verifying Hawaiian births. And when you cannot answer these two points, I would note that contrary to your assertion, no one has provided any credible evidence that Barack Obama was born anywhere. In fact, for all you and I know, pod people spawned him.
Let me make one more observation: your article is a bad rewrite of Malkin, Horowitz, and Moran, who, like you, resorted to abusive ad hominem arguments instead of advancing logical arguments grounded in established facts. And if you think about it, there are very few established facts in this controversy because Obama has not been forthcoming with primary-source documentation (I wonder why). Therefore, if I must believe that there’s a “conspiracy” at work here, then I am sorry to conclude that you belong to a conspiracy of ignoramuses who make the baseless charges of conspiracy-mongering, which among trained logicians is known as framing a strawman.
By the way, you’re dead wrong when you write, “I’d love to see Obama ask the state of Hawaii to produce his long-form birth certificate. While there is no procedural mechanism in place as some have noted before, that is merely a matter of process, not a legal hurdle.” You really should do some research.
Posted by: CTN at December 13, 2008 10:33 AM (1dn9O)
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"And is there anything that can ever be done to convince those conspiracy theorists that they are wrong?"
No. Any evidence you offer can be dismissed as fake, and any witness as a member of the conspiracy.
For example, suppose I have an INFINITE budget and my goal is to convince a conspiracy theorist that the Apollo missions really did land on the moon. It's already possible for scientists to prove this by shining sufficiently powerful lasers on the landing sites and measuring the coherent light that comes back from laser reflectors placed at the landing sites by the astronauts. But the conspiracy theorists (let's call them CTs for short) can either say the scientists are lying or claim that the reflectors were actually placed on the moon by probes last week as part of the conspiracy.
Well, then, I'll send a fleet of new unmanned probes to the moon to take high-resolution still pictures and video of the Apollo landing sites, showing the footprints and hardware left by the astronauts. Nope. The CTs will dismiss all of the pictures and video as computer-generated fakes.
OK, fine! I'll fly the CTs to the moon in person and SHOW them the landing sites. When they see the hardware and footprints with their own eyes, they'll have to believe, won't they?
Won't work. Some of them will refuse to believe that they are on the moon at all. They'll claim that I've drugged or tricked them, and they're seeing a set or a desert location somewhere in Nevada. Or maybe the whole thing is computer-generated video again. (How can I PROVE to them that what appears to be a window or a spacesuit faceplate is not actually a video screen?)
But even if they accept that they are actually on the moon in the year 2008, they will tell me that the Apollo hardware and footprints I show them are fakes, created for their benefit within the last few weeks, and proving nothing about what may or may not have happened in 1969-1972.
No, you can't convince conspiracy theorists that they're wrong.
Posted by: Pat at December 13, 2008 03:32 PM (GhD9A)
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As I said when people were running with the "Obama is a secret Muslim" meme, are conservatives so demoralized and frightened they can longer fight the left on the level of issues and ideas and policies? Leftist ideas still suck as much as they ever did. Conservative principles are still as valid as they were in Reagan's time. Our job is to articulate those ideas better and to try and make sure they're heard (a rough battle when you consider the MSM.)
We have our work cut out for us. This crackpot obsession with Obama's birth certificate only makes the right look intellectually bankrupt and petty. And it's depressing to see self-described conservatives acting as irrational and goofy as 9/11 Troofers.
Bill Buckley performed a huge service to the conservative cause when he marginalized the anti-Semitic, racist, "floride is a Commie plot" people back in the '60's. Unfortunately, I don't see another Buckley on the horizon. Christopher Buckley obviously doesn't cut it.
Posted by: Donna V. at December 13, 2008 08:24 PM (o5sBi)
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Can someone in this thread please show me where CY demonstrably proved that ANYONE has advanced a so-called “conspiracy theory”?
Please, I would appreciate it if anyone in this thread, including the host of this blog, could furnish a source that substantiates this strawman. Surely one of you, including the host, could substantiate this claim. And by “substantiate,” I mean provide a source that has outlined the specifics of this “conspiracy,” which includes the names of the persons who have “conspired.”
Posted by: CTN at December 14, 2008 08:10 AM (i7uNT)
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Until BO produces his real certificate, it's all speculation. The fact that he has not, and has spent considerable cash and effort to conceal it only fuels the fire. It's dishonest and unacceptable from someone aspiring to be Commander in Chief. Voters deserve verifiable proof that the electorate is complying with the Constitution. Troofer accusations against any theories are premature. It's up to BO to lay this to rest and if he continues to refuse, he should not be sworn in.
The HI COLB does not suffice to prove Natural Born Citizenship so, no, your article did not debunk anything. You succeeded at calling the craziest of the troofer theories as crazy, but the fact remains, we still don't know if BO is a legal presidential candidate.
Posted by: Smokin at December 14, 2008 10:08 AM (BZfBT)
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After reading several unambiguous replies in previous posts concerning Obama's birth certificate that make it clear enough he's met any reasonable standard of disclosure, I'd have to say nothing will shut some people up.
Posted by: DoorHold at December 14, 2008 12:44 PM (DA32L)
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"And is there anything that can ever be done to convince those conspiracy theorists that they are wrong?"
Without regard for the fact that there is nothing conspiratorial in any of this, another short answer: produce the birth certificate (not the COLB).
Posted by: martin at December 14, 2008 07:37 PM (7457e)
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Well, not quite, while the abstract of a Certificate of Birth may be accurate, it, like a bikini, reveals much, but covers the most important part; the details of Obama's birth. If you examine the document, it only summarizes certain facts of Obama's birth. It, however, was not created in 1961, it is a computer generated and printed document. Not many computers in Hawaii in '61. Those of this site's dear readers older than, say 20 years of age, should examine their own original birth certificates, regardless of state. Now, don't examine an abstract, but the original certificate signed by the physician who delivered you. Back then and for some years afterward blank certificates were issued by county governments to physicians and hospitals for their lawful use. These certificates are quite distinctive and they look nothing like the abstract with minimal information that is being reviewed on the internet. There is no signature of the attending physician and, more importantly, no boxes filled in with type written or hand written information. Just check out your own original certificate.
The other issue is the original certifcate. Is it an comteraneously issued certificate or is it what is known as a late birth certificate. What is that? It is in most aspects it is identical to a birth certificate issued to someone born in the jurisdiction of the issuing authority. Late birth certificates though are issued to a person who may or may not have been born in the jurisdiction or even on the date on the certificate. They were orginally created for those allegedly not able to record their births. The usual claim was that they lived so far in the country side that there was no convient way to get to the county seat, or did not have an attending physician or midwife. However, it has now been adopted by illegal immigrants as a way to obtain citizenship, especially for illegal alien minors. Many jurisdictions, especially those in California freely issue late birth certificates based on little valid evidence, usually only asking for notorized statements or easily created "baptismal certificates." Now, I am not claiming the Messiah is an illegal alien, but, if he was born overseas, his family easily could have obtained a late birth certificate and falsely claimed he was born in Hawaii. The necessary clue for a late birth certificate is the date of issue of the certificate, and, of course, the missing details, such as physicians signature.
The Messiah can halt all this speculation if he just releases the original certificate.
However, I think he refuses because he realizes that no matter where he was born, he is alien to America. His religion is a crazed neo-pagan worship of Africa with it's attendant racism; His politics are a fear of Christianity, fealty to homosexuals, hatred of any speech that he opposes; abortion first, last and always; His economics is a hatred of free enterprise and hard work; His ideals are a welfare state for all, with, presumably, the Chinese providing all the goods and services that all these people with free time need.
He probably is not an alien, but he sure is alienated from what America is.
Posted by: Federale at December 14, 2008 11:36 PM (H1JJq)
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December 11, 2008
Westside Middle School Massacre Shooter Applies For Concealed Carry Permit
Denied. I'm amazed the idiot even made the attempt, and I hope they investigate whether or not he was in possession of a weapon and the apparent lies on his application and send him back to prison where he belongs.
(h/t Fred R.)
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
10:22 AM
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I'd love to know how people delude themselves into thinking it's OK for two murderers to be released from prison at age 21 *with clean records* (according to the article), simply because they were juveniles at the time of the crimes. Are we so child-obsessed in this culture to think that a little prison time would set these two straight, after killing five people?
Posted by: Mike Gray at December 11, 2008 12:58 PM (5npD/)
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The funny thing about your comment, Mike, is that, on the one hand, kids are too precious and child-like to be charged as adults, etc., for sickening crimes like murder but God help you if you suggest, in polite company that, since they're kids, they might want to wait until they're a bit older to begin having sex, using recreational drugs, etc. because you're stifling their development and that they're 'practically adults' anyway...
Posted by: ECM at December 11, 2008 04:00 PM (q3V+C)
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I'm with you, ECM. It all seems pretty backward to me.
Posted by: Mike Gray at December 11, 2008 04:15 PM (5npD/)
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God save us from the "it's not my fault genaration"
Posted by: Rich in KC at December 11, 2008 04:26 PM (siQqy)
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Obviously, if he thought the police would approve that application, he didn't learn much common sense in school.
Posted by: ConservativeWanderer (formerly C-C-G) at December 11, 2008 10:03 PM (oGgom)
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I'm of two minds about this.
For one I think it good that such irresponsible people don't get permits, but then again I also am strongly opposed to a guy's past deeds influencing his future this way.
He did the crime, he served the time.
For the law the penalty absolves him from that crime (that's what it's all about...), so what he did is (or rather should be) a closed book.
Yet that crime will continue to haunt him whenever he comes into contact with the law for the rest of his life. Essentially then he's got a life sentence, despite one never having been applied by a judge or jury.
And that's wrong.
Posted by: JTW at December 12, 2008 12:01 AM (hrLyN)
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"Essentially then he's got a life sentence, despite one never having been applied by a judge or jury."
In some cases I can see this point (eg. relatively small amounts of drugs), but in the case of murder? Many crimes WILL result in a permanent loss of your freedom and rights. Such an extended "life sentence" is easily avoidable, don't commit those kind of crimes.
Posted by: DoorHold at December 14, 2008 12:15 PM (DA32L)
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"For one I think it good that such irresponsible people don't get permits, but then again I also am strongly opposed to a guy's past deeds influencing his future this way."
How much of his future, and in what category? Going to jail for five years will influence five years of your future, so should we not send people to jail for any reason? Should saving your money not make you wealthier, or wasting your money not make you poor? Both examples are past influencing future. Its called consequences.
"He did the crime, he served the time.
For the law the penalty absolves him from that crime (that's what it's all about...), so what he did is (or rather should be) a closed book."
There are many theories about the purpose of incarceration, including retribution, rehabilitation, and protection of society-at-large from criminals. Absolution is not one of them. The only way to absolve someone of a crime against another is to repay the one wronged. Since the ones he wronged are DEAD, he cannot be absolved.
"Yet that crime will continue to haunt him whenever he comes into contact with the law for the rest of his life. Essentially then he's got a life sentence, despite one never having been applied by a judge or jury."
Past events are the greatest predictor of future behavior. In my experience, once a crook, always a crook, with very few exceptions.
"And that's wrong."
By what standard? Murder of innocents is wrong. Theft of property is wrong. Bearing false testimony to avoid just consequences is wrong. How is being forced to live with a reputation you fashioned for yourself, wrong?
Posted by: Walt at December 14, 2008 07:08 PM (cRO6v)
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manbearpig barada nikto
Keanu Reeves come back from wherever he's been since the Matrix and Speed movies to turn a classic 1951 warning about the perils of nuclear armageddon into a tribute to the climate change cult in tomorrow's release of The Day The Earth Stood Still.
The movie's plot on Wikipedia is less than inspiring:
The film opens in the future San Dimas, California, with Rufus (George Carlin) preparing to use a time machine disguised as a phone booth to travel back to 1988 to make sure that Bill S. Preston, Esq. (Alex Winter) and Theodore "Ted" Logan (Keanu Reeves) remain together as the band "Wyld Stallyns", as their music is the core of the future's Utopian society.
Wait a minute. That's the more realistic plot from
Bill & Ted's Excellent Adventure.
Here is the plot for Keanu's
latest turkey:
A representative of an alien race that went through drastic evolution to survive its own climate change, Klaatu (Keanu Reeves) comes to Earth to assess whether humanity can prevent the environmental damage they have inflicted on their own planet. Klaatu himself already has a negative opinion of humans, and when barred from speaking to the United Nations, he decides they shall be exterminated so the planet – with its rare ability to sustain complex life – can survive. It is up to Dr. Helen Benson (Jennifer Connelly) and her stepson Jacob (Jaden Smith) to convince Klaatu humans are worth saving: but it may already be too late.
Oh, it's too late all right—650 scientists from around the world have
slammed the climate change cult, saying that there is no scientific evidence of manmade global warning.
Real science shows that the world gets warmer, and then it gets cooler. Then it gets warmer again, and then—wait for it—it gets cooler again. It's like a cycle or something. And it's been this way for
hundreds of millions of years, well before bipeds with opposable thumbs moved to the coast, took up yoga, and decided to declare the world was about to end.
If you'd like to know the real cause of global warming and cooling, stick your head outside sometime during daylight hours and search the sky. See that big, flaming ball of hydrogen? That's the sun, or if you're feeling familiar,
Sol.
Sol has weather, too.
Sometimes Sol burns hotter and sends out solar flares. During these periods, it pumps out tremendous, near incomprehensible amounts of energy, and the world warms up. Other times, Sol burns a bit cooler, solar flares die down, and the amount of energy it releases into space dies down a bit, and the world cools down. This we know. This is fact.
Climate change? It happens. In fact, one thing we know for absolute, irrefutable certainty is that climate change is constant, and it is going to happen no matter what we do.
By all means, do your best to practice conservation and protect the environment. But don't be so arrogantly clueless to think you are significant enough to change our climate as the suggest in this inconvenient spoof.
The best you can do is make sure when it gets cooler or warmer that it does so over lands and seas that aren't choked with our garbage and waste.
That's a big enough challenge of it's own, I think, even if it doesn't make as good a movie.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
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Damn! I was really looking forward to seeing this movie.
Posted by: Deuce Geary at December 11, 2008 11:13 AM (Q285d)
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Man contributes to climate change to the same degree that all little boys pee-ing off docks raise sea levels.
Posted by: Bill Smith at December 11, 2008 11:19 AM (8aUFt)
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I'm wondering if Keanu's character will have two others who show up: Verata and Nicto?
I've also addressed this one CY. If you don't mind: Global Warming
Posted by: PhyCon (formerly Mark) at December 11, 2008 12:17 PM (4od5C)
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It is impossible to improve on the original.
Posted by: 1sttofight at December 11, 2008 12:50 PM (up9BM)
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Further proof that Hollywood is bankrupt in more ways than one.
Posted by: Conservative CBU at December 11, 2008 02:07 PM (M+Vfm)
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Hey! Don't confuse the warmer's narrative with facts.
No doubt the agenda driven administrators and educators who populate gub'mint schools will deem this latest hollyweird screed a 'documentary' on climate change, and add it to their embarrassing library of 'classroom material' from Michael Moore & Al Gore.
In a day & age when many think 'The Daily Show and Cobert Report' are news sources, Reeves is simply another useful idiot in Goracle's Church of Deception.
And our children suffer for it.
God save the Republic.
Posted by: locomotivebreath1901 at December 11, 2008 03:54 PM (HZSw8)
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That there is global warming and that it is caused by man has become accepted science in major journals such as Nature (the worst offender). Papers disputing this premise have little chance of being published, as far as I can tell. In fact "science" is being promoted into power and profit for the believers. Nature recently suggested that climate modeling using massive new computers become recieved wisdom by world leaders, who in turn should make all there decisions based on these simulations, ie the scientist "believers" should rule the earth. No humility, no doubts there. Much like our next leader.
Posted by: mytralman at December 11, 2008 04:22 PM (26p91)
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OMFG You have got to be kidding me!!! I grew up with "The Day the Earth Stood Still" as my absoulute sci-fi movie... My Dad talked about his times as a kid when he went to see it, many times... he will be SHATTERED to know that they took a classic like this and manipulated it into a bull$$hytte pro global warming expose.
Let me tell you, I'm in Baghdad, and it's cold... really cold... even the locals have said they've never seen this level of frigidness... last time I saw it this cold, it was from a prom queen giving me the blow off... Go figure...
If BOB has decided (Big Orange Ball) to chill, then in long term, my reaction is that all those who claim we are warming get what they desreve for being wrong, that being get to be hung by their own intestines.
Posted by: Big Country at December 11, 2008 05:37 PM (vuy4X)
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dayum - I was hoping it would be worth seeing, and now I know. :-(
Posted by: BD57 at December 11, 2008 09:01 PM (1JNU5)
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The big problem is in the way scientific grants are approved... if a scientist can show a "crisis" then the politicians are much more likely to shovel more money his way in order to find a "solution." Therefore, there's a built-in pro-crisis bias in science.
Unless and until that changes, you're gonna have Chicken Little faux-crises. Get used to it, and keep your skepticism handy.
Posted by: ConservativeWanderer (formerly C-C-G) at December 11, 2008 09:26 PM (oGgom)
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650 scientists from around the world have slammed the climate change cult, saying that there is no scientific evidence of manmade global warning.
Wow. That's almost all of them, isn't it?
Posted by: Mike's Dumbmerica at December 11, 2008 10:55 PM (CwxZw)
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A representative of an alien race that went through drastic evolution to survive its own climate change, Klaatu (Keanu Reeves) comes to Earth to assess whether humanity can prevent the environmental damage they have inflicted on their own planet. Klaatu himself already has a negative opinion of humans, and when barred from speaking to the United Nations, he decides they shall be exterminated so the planet – with its rare ability to sustain complex life – can survive.
Sounds more like a clever excuse for xenocide.
Posted by: Patrick Chester at December 12, 2008 02:05 AM (RezbN)
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OK, even if Al (I won a Nobel because the committee handing them out are even stupider than I am) Gore is right about global warming how is it a danger to the planet? Sure, if he's right some species might go bye-bye, but where is the danger to the planet? Is it going to explode if the temperature gets too high?
I remember a movie where a plane supposedly couldn't come down and land because the nose was pointed up too much. The hero of the movie spent most of his time trying to get the nose pointed down so the plane could descend. Uh, anyone ever watch a real plane land? Evidently no one connected to that movie ever did. Stupidest movie I ever saw. This sounds worse.
Posted by: NevadaDailySteve at December 12, 2008 03:48 PM (gSsBI)
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650 scientists from around the world have slammed the climate change cult, saying that there is no scientific evidence of manmade global warning.
Wow. That's almost all of them, isn't it?
Well yes ... then there's this little girl.
Posted by: Dan Irving at December 12, 2008 04:50 PM (Kw4jM)
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December 10, 2008
CNN's MRAP Story Feasts on Ignorance in Effort to Demonize Marine Corps
Once again, CNN puts its ignorance and dislike of the military center stage:
The U.S. Marine Corps knew of the threat posed by roadside bombs before the start of the Iraq war, yet did nothing to buy protective vehicles for troops, according to a report to be released by the Pentagon.
Additionally, Marine leaders in 2005 decided to buy up-armored, or reinforced, Humvees instead of Mine Resistant Ambush-Protected vehicles to shield troops in Iraq from mines and other explosives -- a decision that could have cost lives, according to the report obtained Tuesday by CNN.
The report by the Department of Defense inspector general was requested by the Marine Corps in early 2008 after a civilian employee with the service complained that bureaucratic delays undermined the program to develop the armored vehicles.
Inspectors found that the decision not to buy MRAP vehicles in 2005 stopped the Marine Corps Combat Development Command, the agency in charge of finding the best protective vehicle from troops in Iraq, from "developing a course of action ... to attempt to obtain funding for [MRAPs]," according to the report.
The report found that the Department of Defense knew before the war started in 2003 of the threats of mines and roadside bombs in Iraq but did nothing to acquire "MRAP-type" vehicles ahead of the invasion.
What the author of this CNN article fails to explain is that you can have either mobility, or you can have armor; you can't have both.
A vehicle that can withstand IEDs built from artillery shells is going to be too heavy (14 tons in some variations) to leave the main roads or even cross many of the world's bridges. The has two significant and lasting effects. It cedes the majority of territory to the insurgents, and also creates targeting funnels where ambushes can be concentrated, increasing the likelihood of Marines being hit by IEDs.
When insurgents know that they face a vehicle with limited mobility, they can then concentrate on building bigger or more effective types of IEDs to defeat that specific vehicle, while simultaneously using the majority or their forces to dominate the surrounding towns and villages.
Historically, the Marines have always chosen mobility over armor, using speed, tenacity, and tactics to overwhelm opposing forces with weapons systems lighter armed and armored than that of their more heavily armed and armored Army counterparts.
It is true that some Marines who died in HMMWVs because of IED strikes may very well have survived strikes by similar weapons on MRAPs, but at what cost?
Would they have had the mobility to strike al Qaeda and insurgent supply lines running though remote areas of the country, or find weapons caches located on farms and in fields far away from the hardened roads that MRAPs require?
Could Marines have penetrated communities and established relations with friendly Iraqis to develop a counterinsurgency program while hiding inside these metal beasts? The answer to these questions is a resounding "no."
MRAPs are great vehicles for their intended purpose of protecting their occupants against IEDS, but their mobility is horrific, and cedes the majority of the battlefield to the enemy, leaving the enemy to pick the time and place of engagement with American forces.
In short, an early deployment of MRAPs into the Iraqi theater of operations may have saved some lives in the short run, but it would have crippled the Marines ability to take the fight to the enemy and put the insurgency on the defensive.
MRAPS and similar vehicles have a time and a place, as does every weapons system, but they are not nearly mobile enough to be as useful in an offensive war against a lightly armed and mobile enemy as are the lighter and less armored HMMWV.
Of course, you don't have to take my word for it. Even Army soldiers used to more heavily armored equipment find the MRAP
too heavy and slow:
And so we rolled out of FOB Falcon in those giant MRAPs. It seems that most of the seriously experienced combat soldiers do not like MRAPs. Yes, MRAPs are great for the main roads and convoys, but they are too big and too cumbersome, and they get stuck in mud that you could peddle a bicycle through. MRAPs are not offensive vehicles. There is no doubt MRAPs can save lives – they’re like giant vaults on wheels, though I did see the wreckage of one in Afghanistan that had been nearly obliterated. When we’re on the main roads, I love MRAPs, but we will never win wars or major battles with those things, or by staying on main roads. MRAPs need good roads. Good roads are bomb magnets. In Afghanistan, many of the Taliban scoot around on motorcycles, and there is no doubt that mobility is a weapon. We should melt most of the MRAPs down and forge that metal into killing machines like Strykers. The combat vets from 10th Mountain that day were also not fans of MRAPs. And though it’s easy to find MRAP-lovers, the hardcore fighters seem to want more mobility than steel.
Marines encumbered by MRAPs cannot take the battle to the enemy, and Marines that can't take the battle to the enemy will not win wars.
CNN's article is a poorly-researched hit piece designed to attack the credibility and judgement of the Marine Corps.
Perhaps before questioning the judgment of others, they should start by looking at their motivations and biases first.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
12:30 PM
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You can't argue with physics. I learned these elementary facts in high school. Even if you didn't learn them, it's intuitive to figure out that a panther can move more quickly than an elephant and get into tight places the elephant can't get into.
I am appalled by how ignorant journalists are. Instead of inquiring into the Marine Corps' reasoning about these vehicles, they just wanted to take a cheap shot.
Posted by: miriam at December 10, 2008 02:24 PM (QEaZv)
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"A civilian whistle-blower working with the Marine Corps on the MRAP program wrote a scathing report about delays in the procurement process in early 2008."
Hmmm... how exactly does one get to be a "whistle-blower?" What's the 401K plan like? Since they're not clear on this, can I guess that it's just a schmuck that works for the manufacturer and is passed that the USMC simply didn't buy his friggin' product?
Posted by: tsmonk at December 10, 2008 03:57 PM (E8R20)
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It doesn't surprise me at all that journalists don't know what they're talking about. That's normal. What is aggrevating though, is the necessity for long and complicated explanations they generate. Of course, these explanations are to people who are only marginally interested in listening to them and have no background on which to base an even small understanding on. The stupidity just goes on and on.
Posted by: Tonto at December 10, 2008 05:18 PM (Qv1xF)
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Marines and soldiers = reel stupid.
Journalists = reel smirt.
There, I think that covers the basics. Too bad we can't all be as intelligent and well educated as your typical J-school grad, but somebody's got to do the work these parasites feed off of.
Posted by: Steve Skubinna at December 10, 2008 07:16 PM (mfdQL)
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My position is "Don't DIS the Marines". Also, if the Marines need funding to have the best armored equipment, GET THE FUNDING TO THEM!!! Then let commanders decide what is the best in each given situation.
I am 100% thankful for those who serve in our armed forces, and I want them to have the best of the best in each given situation to achieve goals and protect and defend their lives.
The ins and outs of this sitch, I don't completely understand. But I support what it takes to keep our troops safe and achieve their objectives and want funding for it. That's REALLY the reason why we pay federal taxes: for our troops to be kept safe, etc., and to have the best of equipment, etc. Give it to them!! (And don't dis them... whoever would criticize our troops.)

Posted by: l at December 10, 2008 09:25 PM (tdrxf)
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I know from my days as a grunt that I would trade speed over flac jackets everytime and none of us wore the damn things.
Posted by: tjbbpgob at December 11, 2008 01:22 AM (I4yBD)
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I remember Wolf Blitzer interviewing a Marine approximately two years ago. It was just after the incident where an AAAVP7 was hit by a huge IED. Blew it clear off the ground and it landed upside down. This is a fully armored vehicle almost thirty feet long that weighs 22 tons. Wolf's first question to the Marine information officer was, "Would these Marine's be alive today if they had been in an uparmored HUMVEE?"
Posted by: Have Blue at December 11, 2008 03:53 AM (WuPk/)
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"The U.S. Marine Corps knew of the threat posed by roadside bombs before the start of the Iraq war..."
Not to be nit-picky, but we've known about the threat and dangers of road-side bombs since the advent of gunpowder! As CY noted, its a trade off between mobility and armor.
The real reason journalists create the demand for up-armored HMMWVs is a direct coorelation to the risk adverse society modern humans have become. In today's society, no one can be injured, no one can die and if someone does, someone else must take the blame. It is utter bull!
Quite frankly, we can make our soldier's completely impervious to all attacks, the problem is, they wouldn't be able to move more than a few yards a day because of the weight and mobility limitations.
I agree the loss of life is tragic, but it is war, and I expect that people will get hurt and die, we just need to stop trying to find someone to blame for it. Accept the risk or don't do it, but quit trying to make the world into a risk free society, it's a losing battle.
Posted by: David M at December 11, 2008 10:03 AM (gIAM9)
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OK... reality Check... Most of the guys I've talked to here would rather be in HMMWVs (1114 or 1151 variants) than the MRAP. Granted, the MRAP is impressive as far as being able to take a hit, buh the fact remains that most MRAPs, (what I call the "Uparmorded PT Cruiser") only carrys 4 to 6 people... in and when the 'shytte' hits, these things don't have a hell of a lot of manpower.... granted, they keep the guys alive, but what good is it if they get on site, and they only have 4 guys (besides crew) to deal with businesss? Thats my question...
Posted by: Big Country at December 11, 2008 05:58 PM (vuy4X)
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The mainstream media should stop sitting around getting drunk and trying to solve the world's problems and just report the f'n news.
Posted by: DoorHold at December 14, 2008 12:27 PM (DA32L)
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From what son's told me, they often used a mix of the vehicles on patrols. Except for the times, mainly in winter, when the roads were soft and couldn't support the weight of the MRAPs. And when they were going to areas where the roads were too narrow or in terrain that was too tight for them. Then they used the Humvees.
The MRAPs are armored out the wazoo; from what he told me of two vehicles that hit mines, the vehicle took serious damage but nobody was injured. But, as you said, big, heavy and not too maneuverable.
Posted by: Firehand at December 14, 2008 08:12 PM (3hXO1)
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20 Terrorists Trained For Mumbai Still At Large
Bad news in the Sydney Morning Herald:
POLICE in Mumbai said the 10 men who carried out the terrorist attacks in November were among 30 recruits selected for suicide missions.
The whereabouts of the other 20 were unknown.
Police released the identities and home addresses in Pakistan of the nine gunmen who died during the attack on India's financial centre - a move designed to increase pressure on the Pakistani Government.
It was the first time Indian police had disclosed the larger number of recruits, all of whom it says belonged to the Pakistani militant organisation Lashkar-e-Taiba. Police said there was no reason to believe the other 20 were in India but expressed concern about that possibility.
"Another 20 were ready to die," Deven Bharti, a Mumbai police deputy commissioner, said. "This is the very disturbing part of it."
Considering the effectiveness of the first batch of terrorists in Mumbai. it would be surprising to see them used anywhere else other than another Indian city, though they may take time to scout out any adjustments in India's defenses that resulted from Mumbai's attacks. They also may also chose to hold off on launching additional attacks if they don't want to provoke a war between Pakistan and India that would likely end their ability to use Pakistan as a sanctuary.
Whether they desire a stable base in Pakistan more than success in India seems to be the key question.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
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"They may also chose to hold off on launching additional attacks if they don't want to provoke a war between Pakistan and India that would likely end their ability to use Pakistan as a sanctuary."
I don't think they care about that, the more mayhem the better.
An actual India/Pakistan war would make Iraq look like a barroom brawl. Scary.
Posted by: DoorHold at December 14, 2008 12:32 PM (DA32L)
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December 08, 2008
Just When You Thought It Was Over...
...Scalia adds another Obama citizenship case to the Supreme Court's Dec. 12 docket, Wrotnowski Vs. Bysiewicz.
Let the fun and games
begin continue!
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
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I keep thinking of the old Chinese curse: May you live in interesting times.
Posted by: NevadaDailySteve at December 08, 2008 10:17 PM (CmDSP)
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So.... do we have a Constitution in the USA?? Has someone decided the Constitution matters?? What are they going to do when we all look at our Government and no longer believe it's "our Government" because they refuse to follow the Constitution??
They cannot sweep this matter under the carpet without it creating a backlash.
Posted by: l at December 09, 2008 12:06 AM (tdrxf)
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Think of it as a bailout for unemployed lawyers...
Posted by: Adriane at December 09, 2008 01:26 AM (wJlIy)
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I would really like to see The One be forced to produce a real birth certificate. I have little doubt that he is constitutionally qualified, but it would serve two purposes. First, it would silence all but the most dedicated kooks on the issue. Having regularly skewered my liberal friends for the past 8 years over their fever swamp ravings, it is annoying to constantly hear from them about this from conservatives. Second, The One has a long history of disinformation and secrecy, and it would be good for him to start his administration with a reminder that even The One must comply with minimal levels of openness.
Posted by: Tregonsee at December 09, 2008 06:06 AM (W9t2q)
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There is a certain symmetry about asking Obama to provide a birth certificate. The democrats asked if McCain's birth in the Canal Zone disqualified him. McCain published the document - game over.
Why isn't Obama willing to do the same?
Posted by: arch at December 09, 2008 08:10 AM (bF4kP)
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My final two cents (even though I don't have much sense!) on this topic, the matter of his citizenship: He is a US citizen, without question. US citizens are either natural born or naturalized. Those are the only two statuses of US citizenship. There is no gray area.
If he is not a natural born citizen there would be a public record of his having gone through the naturalization process. For those of you who doubt his status as a natural born citizen, find the public record showing when and where he became a naturalized US citizen. Any journalist, citizen of average intelligence, attorney or private investigator should be able to locate that record without too much effort or expense, if it indeed exists. Produce that public record and those of you who question his citizenship status will have made your point. And, you will have convinced me, a person who voted for him, that he is not Constitutionally qualified to be our nation's President.
I rest my case.
Dude
Posted by: Dude at December 09, 2008 10:48 AM (byA+E)
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Dude:
It's a lot more complicated than "your case."
If, as the former democrat AG of Pennsylvania suit claims, Obama's mother remarried and his Indonesian stepfather adopted him while they were in Indonesia, then he became an Indonesian citizen in order to attend school there, he would have lost his US citizenship, if he was actually born here.
This scenario would also explain the questionable documents about Barack draft registration. Had he not been a US citizen, he would not be required to sign up with selective service.
If, as Obama's Kenyan grandmother claims, he was born in Kenya, he would not be a US citizen unless he was naturalized.
The smart move would be to do what McCain did and provide his birth certificate.
Posted by: arch at December 09, 2008 11:20 AM (bF4kP)
8
Posting this again, because I can see from of the comments that other people are not getting this information. And it's important that they do.
Obama HAS PRODUCED AND SHOWN his official short-form birth certificate, which has been seen and touched in physical reality by factcheck.org and politifact.com, and which has been fully vouched for by the State of Hawaii.
Obama IS NOT ABLE TO "produce" his long-form birth certificate, because it CAN NOT be viewed OR copied for Obama. The State of Hawaii does not make copies of the long-form birth certificates FOR ANYONE, FOR ANY REASON. They do not even have a process in place for it.
This is all in the public record.
Posted by: jim at December 09, 2008 03:38 PM (QAh+h)
9
And as for Obama's grandmother's "Claims", if you actually listen to the full audio of this 85-year-old woman being interviewed by a translator with a hidden agenda, they starts correcting the interviewer as soon as they realize the incorrect statements he's attributing to her.
And separately, being a citizen of another nation does not somehow "cancel out" your US citizenship. There are plenty of fully legal US-born citizens, who have dual citizenship in other countries due to their parents.
So even IF there was some sort of massive conspiracy involving hiding Obama's birthplace, he would STILL be a US citizen because his mother is.
Believe whatever you want - just be aware that, in this case, your belief is utterly contradicted by facts.
Posted by: jim at December 09, 2008 03:44 PM (QAh+h)
10
Well, we should have impeached and imprisoned the five Supreme Court justices that committed the greatest act of judicial corruption in our country's history by making George Bush president.
If we had done that, chances are that these two criminals would not be using their position to undermine the first legitimately elected President in eight years.
Posted by: Green Eagle at December 09, 2008 03:45 PM (PHHOs)
11
uh... green eagle ur incorrect
the greatest act of judicial corruption in our nations history is roe v. wade
this decision is in direct opposition to the 10th amendment of our Constitution which gives the states the right to make laws concerning rights not enumerated in the Bill of Rights
And i say this as a Pro Choice Social Liberal
Posted by: MAModerate at December 09, 2008 04:04 PM (1XwXF)
12
MAModerate, so you're saying Roe v. Wade is a violation of State's rights - but the SCOTUS decision to overturn the Florida recount and select GWB was not?
Posted by: jim at December 09, 2008 06:33 PM (QAh+h)
13
Hey, Jim... you might look at history and see who went to the courts first in that fight.
Hint: It wasn't Booooooooooosh.
Posted by: ConservativeWanderer (formerly C-C-G) at December 09, 2008 07:50 PM (oGgom)
14
Obama HAS PRODUCED AND SHOWN his official short-form birth certificate, which has been seen and touched in physical reality by factcheck.org and politifact.com, and which has been fully vouched for by the State of Hawaii.
Uhhhhh, no.
Not that I really think The Proclaimed One is not "natural born"; it's just the arrogance of the one who ran against for President against his opponant's vice running mate's new born child; that if the one wanted it could have asked the State of Hawaii to release his actual birth certs and put them into public records (like most States 'BCs are) rather than having his HI hitmen pull a mirror image of the Joe Plumber hit.
In other words, rather than publish an invalidated BC on the net, and having his Hawaii hitmen claim they know the one was born their, The Proclaimed could have just asked the State drone break out the official seal, stamp an unaltered BC, make it uh, "official", and published it.
Uhhhhh, no.
In fact, as a state drone, I can assure you if YOU do the same to your State ID as what the one did and presented it to a cop in a traffic stop you may have some 'splainin to do.
Posted by: Druid at December 09, 2008 08:55 PM (o/N4X)
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Druid: Uhhhh, yes.
Wanting things to be different from the facts, doesn't change the facts.
Here's factcheck.org, looking at Obama's short-form birth certificate in real, live physical form.
http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/born_in_the_usa.html
Here's politifact.com, doing the same.
http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/article/2008/jun/27/obamas-birth-certificate-part-ii/
Here's factcheck regarding the long form:
"The Hawaii Department of Health's birth record request form does not give the option to request a photocopy of your long-form birth certificate, but their short form has enough information to be acceptable to the State Department."
So, to sum up:
1) Obama's birth certificate has been independently verified in person by two nonpartisan fact-checking websites, in addition to being validated by the State of Hawaii.
2) This birth certificate has all the information needed for the State Department, which includes for passports and security clearances.
3) The State of Hawaii does not make long-form birth certificates available to anyone.
4) As a side note, the Governor of Hawaii is Republican and campaigned for McCain. Do you really think that if there was a chance in heaven that Obama wasn't a citizen, the Governor wouldn't have pushed this to Hell and back?
Obama is now showing you the best documentation that the State of Hawaii will give to ANY citizen.
I hope that you will now adjust your worldview to correspond with these facts.
Posted by: another jim at December 09, 2008 09:27 PM (QAh+h)
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another jim -
The only concern of the State Department is that you are legally eligible to leave the country and return to it.
Obama is not asking the State Department's permission to travel. He has declared that he is eligible to become President.
There is a difference.
Posted by: Adriane at December 10, 2008 01:01 AM (14u2A)
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I'll give you two words to explain why I don't buy any of these birth certificate conspiracy theories floating around: Hillary Clinton.
I may disagree with her politically--and I do, but even her opponents must admit that she is one of the best connected and ruthless politicians on the scene today. The Clintons have contacts at every level of government, and they've never shied away from the politics of personal destruction.
If concrete evidence exists that would legally disqualify Obama from holding the Oval Office, the Clintons and their minions almost certainly would have been able to find it. And given the cutthroat nature of the Democratic primaries this year, there's no doubt that if she'd had it, Hillary would have used this evidence against Obama.
The simple fact that one of the most vicious politicians of the age didn't use this attack against Obama shows me that there simply is nothing to this charge, and those who keep bringing it up--on both sides--remind me quite a lot of those dimwits who still think that Bush had something to do with planning and/or executing the 9/11 attacks.
Let's not go down that road, fellow conservatives. Leave the wacko conspiracy theories for the lefties who put mirrors on their shoes to watch for Black Helicopters.
Posted by: ConservativeWanderer (formerly C-C-G) at December 10, 2008 08:23 AM (oGgom)
18
Well said CY. My sentiments exactly. How about that?! A conservative and a liberal have found common ground.
I have to remind some of my fellow Democrat friends (those who are conspiracy theorists) from time to time that Michael Moore is NOT a journalist.
Unfortunately, there will always be people who are oblivious to facts that get in the way of their bias. That's not a Democrat or Republican issue. It's a human nature issue.
Posted by: Dude at December 10, 2008 11:00 AM (byA+E)
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That would be "CW", Dude. I really don't think CY (Bob Owens) is impersonating my friend CW

Posted by: PhyCon (formerly Mark) at December 10, 2008 03:02 PM (4od5C)
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Actually, Adriane, the State Department doesn't only issue passports. It also handles some security clearances.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A52768-2003Feb10?language=printer
Other Federal entities which grant security clearances include the NSA, CIA, FBI - all consider a short-form birth certificate that has been validated by the state that issued it, as sufficient for identifying the person.
And in all of this, the State Department must determine that the person's citizenship information is correct, before they will issue a passport or a security clearance.
And State Department considers a short-form birth certificate perfectly adequate for this, as long as they can validate it with the individual state which issued it - as *also* do the NSA, CIA, FBI, DIA, etc. etc.
That's just how it is.
Posted by: jim at December 10, 2008 04:32 PM (QAh+h)
21
"That would be "CW", Dude. I really don't think CY (Bob Owens) is impersonating my friend CW

"
Oops! Sorry about that!
Dude
Posted by: Dude at December 10, 2008 05:20 PM (byA+E)
22
No problem, Dude... I guess I should have thought of the possible confusion of initials when I picked my new nom-de-blog (to go with my new blog). Ahh, well, live and learn.
And I imagine that there are quite a lot of things we could agree on... such as, for example, that the sound of fingernails down a blackboard is a Bad Thing.

Posted by: ConservativeWanderer (formerly C-C-G) at December 10, 2008 07:08 PM (oGgom)
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Obama Should Respect the Secret Service Enough to Release His Vault Copy Birth Certificate
The Supreme Court will decide today whether or not to hear two cases arguing that President Elect Barack Obama is not a "natural born citizen" and is therefore ineligible to become President.
Odds are overwhelming that the Court will decline to hear these cases that Obama has fought in lower courts and which have previously been dismissed, and those conspiracy theorists who believe Barack Obama is illegally and unconstitutionally usurping the office of the Presidency will only become more inflamed and agitated.
I'm not sure why Barack Obama has fought releasing the vault copy of his birth certificate, and frankly do not care what his motivations have been. I would argue, however, that Obama should release his vault copy birth certificate even if he wins these legal challenges, simply out of respect for the Secret Service officers that will be charged with guarding his life during the course of his Presidency, and for those White House staff members that could be also be threatened by any attempt against the President.
We've already seen people arrested for threatening Obama the candidate, ranging from meth-addled white supremacists, sober bout stupid white supremacists with a flair for fashion, a "slow" bail bondsman wannabe, and a man whose behavior changed after a recent traumatic brain injury. None of these potential threats has been viewed as a significant threat, but there are no doubt individuals and groups that are at least marginally more capable that would like to see President Elect Obama's term cut tragically short. As a result, we can probably expect the Secret Service to have a busy Presidency even without concerned "patriots" adding to the chatter of threats against our duly elected President.
By simply releasing the vault copy of his birth certificate—which is all most of the dozens of lawsuits against Obama are asking— Obama will satisfy the overwhelming majority of people who have questions about Obama's citizenship and his constitutional right to be President.
By holding out on what should be a trivial matter, Obama is going to create a situation where conspiracy theories regarding his citizenship will not only continue, they may increase, and ratchet up in intensity.
As a result of his unnecessary obstinance, the number of disillusioned citizens will grow, leading to an increase in "chatter" which will make it more difficult for the Secret Service to discern legitimate threats against the President from the rantings of mere blowhards. When the chatter obscures true threats, then the opportunity of an incident occurring rises.
The last thing any of us should want as Americans is a situation where an individual or group has an opportunity to attempt an attack on our President, especially if that attack could have been thwarted far in advance without any risk to the President, his family members, staff, nearby citizens, or members of the Secret Service tasked with putting the President's Security about their own.
Some people hate Barack Obama merely because he is ethically half African, and there is little we can do to erase their bigotry.
Any birth certificate conspiracy theorist threat (real or merely resource-diverting clutter), however, can easily be diffused by the President Elect himself. It requires only a simple signature on a form releasing the vault copy of his birth certificate to the media.
Barack Obama should respect those serving in his White House and those charged with guarding his life enough to sign the release form and make the vault copy of his birth certificate public.
Put the conspiracy theorists out of business, Mr. Obama.
It's simply the right thing to do.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
10:23 AM
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1
Why is Obama objecting to proving that he was a natural born American citizen? It's a specific constitutional requirement to serve a president.
I assume that he has a passport of some kind - tourist, official duty or diplomatic. The first passport issued requires primary or secondary evidence of citizenship.
Posted by: arch at December 08, 2008 10:48 AM (gPMC3)
2
Sorry,
I meant "as" president
Posted by: arch at December 08, 2008 10:49 AM (gPMC3)
3
Apparently, the copy of his Certificate of Live Birth that he has made public, as well as other evidence, is evidence enough for the SCOTUS to decline to hear the case in question. Keep in mind that it would only require four Justices to decide to hear the case. Obviously, not all four of the conservative Justices agreed to proceed with this case.
This article on Fox News settles it for me:
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2008/12/08/supreme-court-dismisses-challenge-obamas-citienship/
In my opinion, if there were even a hint of truth to these allegations that Obama isn't a natural borm citizen, surely the Republican National Committee would have brought this to light well before the election. In fact, I'm quite sure that they DID investigate this matter thoroughly and came to the conclusion that Obama is in fact a natural born citizen of the USA.
In other words, if they had any evidence at all that he isn't a natural born citizen and did not bring that evidence forward before the election, that would imply a conspiracy at the highest levels of the leadership of the Republican Party as participants in the largest campaign fraud in American History.
I simply can not imagine that the Republican Party and its leadership, knowing full well that ALL of the major polls showed that Obama was likely to win this election, would have swept under the rug any evidence that would have disqualified him from actually becoming president under the provisions set forth in the Constitution. It just ain't logical that the Republicans would have been part of a conspiracy to help a Democrat get elected who wasn't qualified. Think about that for a moment.
Furthermore, I have yet to hear of even ONE Republican Congressman, Senator, or candidate for federal office question the status of Obama's citizenship, much less provide one shred of evidence that he is anything other than a ....natural born citizen of the United States of America.
From what I understand from various legal sources, including my brother who is a very conservative federal criminal defense attorney, The SCOTUS has never actually ruled on what it means to be a natural born citizen. Many of us, myself included, have always interpreted that to mean that a person is actually born in the United States or one of its territories.
Article II, Section 1 says in part:
No person except a natural born Citizen, or a Citizen of the United States, at the time of the Adoption of this Constitution, shall be eligible to the Office of President; neither shall any Person be eligible to that Office who shall not have attained to the Age of thirty-five Years, and been fourteen Years a Resident within the United States.
Unfortunately, the Supreme Court has never ruled on what that actually MEANS. Just because you or I THINK that it means a particular thing doesn't make it so. Under our system the Constitution means what the SCOTUS says it means.
I wish that the Court would rule on this question, the definition of "natural born citizen" and settle it once and for all.
Respectfully,
Dude
Posted by: Dude at December 08, 2008 01:18 PM (byA+E)
4
I agree with most of what you post Dude, but why do you think Obama does not clear the matter?
PS: I think you give the Republicans too much credit. They gave Obama the biggest pass in political history by not using the Rev Wright issue. Why would you then expect them to go after Obama's birth location?
Posted by: Rick at December 08, 2008 04:01 PM (FWmwx)
5
There's a big difference between the Wright issue and the citizenship issue. Whatever his association with Wright was, that would not Constitutionally disqualify him from the office of the Presidency. In fact, many Republicans did use Wright against him. But, they weren't able to convince enough voters that it mattered.
On the other hand, if the Republican Leadership had any evidence at all that Obama's legal status as a natural born US citizen was in question, surely they would have pursued that. As I stated earlier, I imagine that they did do so and came to the conclusion that these rumors were just that, rumors.
I think that Obama HAS cleared the matter. I think that he has provided all the documents that the law requires and that most reasonable people would expect. Thus far, the courts seem to be satisfied that he's a natural born citizen.
Irregardless of what other evidence that he or his campaign might produce in the future, there will still be people who won't believe it.
If I were him I wouldn't produce any further evidence either, unless the courts ruled otherwise. If anyone has credible evidence showing that he's not a natural born citizen, they can certainly pursue in the courts. In fact, they should.
Question for Smarty: What evidence do you have that Obama is a Marxist? The man became a millionaire by being a Capitalist! He wrote two books that sold very well. That ain't Marxism.
Dude
Posted by: Dude at December 08, 2008 04:54 PM (byA+E)
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"If I were him I wouldn't produce any further evidence either, unless the courts ruled otherwise"
I disagree. If there is any question as to his eligibility he owes it to the country to come forth with the proof. Otherwise the appearance smells as if there is something to hide. It's certainly not too much to ask of any candidate.
Posted by: Rick at December 08, 2008 05:09 PM (FWmwx)
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"I disagree. If there is any question as to his eligibility he owes it to the country to come forth with the proof. Otherwise the appearance smells as if there is something to hide. It's certainly not too much to ask of any candidate."
That's my point. The question has been answered. He has come forth with the proof to satisfy the SCOTUS. The burden of proof is now on anyone who claims to have evidence to the contrary.
There's another case coming up dealing with this same issue, soon. It'll be interesting to see how that one plays out.
Posted by: Dude at December 08, 2008 05:32 PM (byA+E)
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Dude, he has not come forth with proof to satisfy SCOTUS. SCOTUS has not decided on that, only that they would not review the case. If I'm incorrect, please explain.
Thanks
Posted by: Rick at December 08, 2008 05:42 PM (FWmwx)
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I can see a few reasons for Obama to let this fester. One, he doesn't think it's worth the time to address. Two, he knows it will drive the conspiracy theorists even crazier, and all opposition to him can be tarred with that brush. Third, there is some detail in the actual certificate that might be personally embarrassing to him, the two that occur to me being his birth name is something mundane like "Barry" or his mother's status is single.
Myself, I like the third reason the best. Obama is a self made man - his entire public persona has been carefully crafted to project the image he wants us to see. His kind of narcissism can't permit any contrary evidence.
Forget the birth certificate - I'd like to know more about his college years. How he can have slipped through Columbia and Harvard without leaving any trace baffles me. Where did he live, what did he do, who did he hang out with - hell, after eight years of the media digging up everybody who sat near Bush 43 in college, why isn't there any interest in this impenetrable smoke screen Obama's shrouded his early years in?
Posted by: Steve Skubinna at December 08, 2008 06:49 PM (mfdQL)
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Dude Carl Marx wrote a book too!
Posted by: Rich in KC at December 08, 2008 06:57 PM (siQqy)
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Let me see. The new leader doesn't have to meet the same requirements that I did to get the clearances that I have for my job, oookay. And lots of folks are good with that.
Posted by: emdfl at December 08, 2008 07:07 PM (N1uaO)
12
Thank you for this, the silliest post I have read today.
Do you really think the "conspiracy theorists" who contemplate what you accuse them of contemplating, will be rendered intelligent and sane by the release of a birth certificate?
Can you not possibly imagine what their reaction to that would be? Does it not occur to you that, being consipiracy theorists, lunatics, "nut-barz," maniacs, Wing Nutz (tm), right-wing cranks, and insane persons, they will find--in half a second--reasons for rejecting the legitimacy of any proof Obama or anyone else they decide they "fear" would offer?
Does it never occur to you that any conspiracy theorist worthy of the name would instantly attribute the "proof" you demand, and those involved in providing it, to their involvement in an even greater and more heinous conspiracy?
Don't you and your supporters know anything about the real world?
Have you ever argued with a mentally ill individual? As Tommy Lee Jones says in Men in Black: "Try it."
Posted by: Mr. Wonderful at December 08, 2008 07:33 PM (CnFD1)
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emdfl, it's not that we're okay with it, at least not in my case (I can't speak for anyone else)... it's just that there are a lot more substantive grounds to challenge Obama on.
To be blunt, tilting at this particular windmill makes people look a lot like the "9/11 truthers" or the Ross Perot followers who feared "Black Helicopters." And, as was mentioned earlier, one possible reason Obama is letting it stay alive is because he can thus paint any opposition to him as the same sort of nincompoop conspiracy theories.
To put it another way, for the last 8 years the lefties have been floating every sort of cockamamie theory about Bush... do we really wanna follow their way of doing things?
You can if you want, but I'll take another path, thanks.
Posted by: ConservativeWanderer (formerly C-C-G) at December 08, 2008 07:35 PM (N+CS/)
14
Let's set some givens:
I do not like Barrack Obama.
I am sorry that he has apparently won the election.
I think the world will be a very dangerous if the Electoral College fails to elect him President.
I do not think it matters now what facts come to light, thje troofers will not be convinced, so we need to learn to treat them the way we treat the Dec. 7, 9/11, and JFK troofers. My selection is to ignore them as best I can.
Heh. See how good at them I am getting? I didn't even think to mention Timmy Egan and Andrew the drooler.
Now. My question is this:
About the "vault copy". I tought that by definition almost that could not be released by anybody. I know I can't get mine from Los Angeles County.
All I can get is a Certificate of Live Birth which, my understanding is, attests to the fact that some important person went to "the vault", read the thing, copied some information from it, and then swore that the information was a true copy.
Posted by: Larry Sheldon at December 08, 2008 07:55 PM (OmeRL)
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Even if it turns out that Obama's birth certificate is legitimate, he shouldn't be president as he's going to do away with the 2nd amendment. Until he can prove that he isn't, by resigning the office, patriots will be fervently opposed to his administration and will withdraw from the union, posthaste. No real constituent of the Heartland can acknowledge a Marxist as our president as it is anathema to the very ideals of the USA of America.
Posted by: RUGGED IN MONTANA at December 08, 2008 08:29 PM (vXj2I)
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Unfortunately, Rugged, he can't be legally disqualified for that. But I really doubt he'll be re-elected... he simply can't live up to his campaign hype.
Posted by: ConservativeWanderer (formerly C-C-G) at December 08, 2008 08:42 PM (N+CS/)
17
"Rugged in Montana" is actually "Effete in Honolulu."
Please ignore the troll.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at December 08, 2008 08:47 PM (HcgFD)
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What you're saying is that Obama should kowtow to every demand made by the lunatic fringe right because not doing so increases the chance that said fringe will try to assassinate him? That's disgusting.
It's very simple: Obama has proven his US citizenship several times over. His Hawaiian birth has been corroborated by multiple sources. This controversy exists only in the fevered imaginations of the insane, and no amount of evidence will ever satisfy them.
I'm not saying you should stop your heroic investigations though, Owens. It's a pleasure to watch the right-wing work themselves into a frenzy over this. It keeps you scamps out of any real mischief.
Posted by: Jrod at December 08, 2008 08:59 PM (yS/Ys)
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Wrong again, Bob. I'm Effete in Honolulu, and I've never even been to Montana.
Posted by: Effete in Honolulu at December 08, 2008 09:01 PM (ob6B3)
20
Jrod, you do know that the core that have been pushing this from teh very beginning are from the lunatic fringe Left, don't you?
Larry Johnson and TexasDarlin at No Quarter have been to prime pushers behind this and other Obama conspriacy theories (Michelle Obama's nonexistent "Whitey tape," the Selective Service Registration, etc), and Berg, one of the Truthers pushing the case dumped today, held office as a Democrat.
This is a PUMA story, SadlyNauts, coming from your side of the aisle. Some far right truthers have embraced it, but it is certainly yours.
By all means, embrace the crazy that emerged from your eight years of BDS.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at December 08, 2008 09:14 PM (HcgFD)
21
Barack Obama should respect those serving in his White House and those charged with guarding his life enough to sign the release form and make the vault copy of his birth certificate public.
This is about as lame as such arguments can possibly get.
Put the conspiracy theorists out of business, Mr. Obama.
Right! And I have a bridge I'd like to sell you! Nothing will put wingnut conspiracists out of business--at least not until we start herding them into the re-education camps.
Posted by: Mike's Dumbmerica at December 08, 2008 09:16 PM (CwxZw)
22
I'd like to see Obama forced to release his birth certificate if only because I think he's an arrogant jack*** and I'd like to see him taken down a notch.
That being said I wish this whole thing would go away. It's like the saying about trying to get a pig to sing. You will wear yourself out without accomplishing anything and you'll just annoy the pig.
Posted by: NevadaDailySteve at December 08, 2008 09:18 PM (CmDSP)
23
Jrod, you do know that the core that have been pushing this from teh very beginning are from the lunatic fringe Left, don't you?
This is a PUMA story, SadlyNauts, coming from your side of the aisle. Some far right truthers have embraced it, but it is certainly yours.
By all means, embrace the crazy that emerged from your eight years of BDS.
Yet you embrace it yourself and actually give arguments in favor of it. You wholeheartedly support the notion and, in the same thread, ridicule it as "crazy" and the result of BDS.
Which is it?
Posted by: Mike's Dumbmerica at December 08, 2008 09:20 PM (CwxZw)
24
Rick: I don't know enough about the law to really answer your question in regards to what the SCOTUS actually decided today, other than that they decided not to hear the case. It's my understanding that only 4 of the 9 Justices would have had to agree to proceed with the case. They declined without comment.
Steve Skubinna: I haven't given much thought to Obama's college years. However, I wouldn't say that he "slipped through Columbia and Harvard without leaving any trace". He was, afterall, the editor of the Harvard Law Review. One doesn't "slip through" Harvard and become the editor of the Law Review.
Rich in KC: Ahhhhhhh, how could I have missed that connection?! Karl Marx wrote a book. Obama and a gazillion other people have written books. Now, I got it. They're all Marxists!
Conservative-Wanderer: Agreed. If you don't like him or don't trust him (or both), challenge him on more substantive grounds. The folks who are beating this citizenship issue to death remind me of some of my fellow liberal friends (a bit more to the left than I), mind you. I have to remind them that Michael Moore isn't a journalist!
Whomever you are: Do you actually understand what would be required "to do away with the 2nd amendment?" You make it sound as if amending the Constitution is an easy thing to do.
Posted by: Dude at December 08, 2008 09:31 PM (byA+E)
25
Johnson and the PUMAs are not on my side, Owens. They may call themselves liberals or Democrats, but that doesn't mean they are my allies. Isn't it a bit disingenuous to blame someone else for pushing this story when you yourself are pushing it, right here in this very post?
Also, you ignored the main thrust of my comment. It was an honest mistake, no doubt, so I'll repeat the question for you:
What you're saying is that Obama should kowtow to every demand made by the lunatic fringe right because not doing so increases the chance that said fringe will try to assassinate him?
Posted by: Jrod at December 08, 2008 09:36 PM (yS/Ys)
26
So you guys are jousting at windmills again I see. Apparently none of you realize that it would not matter what Obama's birth certificate says. If you are born on American soil, you are a natural born American. It makes absolutely no legal difference whether the parents are American or not.
The case before the Supreme Court is challenging Obama's citizenship, but does not deny he was born in Hawaii. That makes him a citizen so clearly that the court would not hear it. Case closed. It was a nonsense case, and asking for his birth certificate is laughable. Don't you bother to check this stuff before you go on a rant?
Posted by: smelltehcoffee at December 08, 2008 09:37 PM (qMP3U)
27
Jrod, I don't think that asking for someone's birth certificate when citizenship is part of the job requirement is a "lunatic demand," even if it is repetitious considering the COLB release, etc.
When the painless process of producing a source document from an easily accessible and know location would tamp down a great deal of outrage and suspicion from the far left and right, and perhaps prevent a great deal of the insanity we saw from your liberal peers over the last eight years, it seems incumbent on a President who touts himself as "post-partisan" to help put to rest these suspicions.
I think smell thecoffee is right: showing his birth certificate won't change his status. What is will do is marginalize the fringe elements, and lessen hysteria in what has become known as the paranoid style of American politics.
What I cant' quite grasp is why people such as yourself seem so adverse to full disclosure of his records when it would quell most uncertainties and further undermine any other remaining conspiracy theories out there.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at December 08, 2008 09:53 PM (HcgFD)
28
Bob
Honest question: since your work gets such prominent coverage at sadlyno, do you sometimes write with an eye towards getting a response from them?
i'm willing to bet you enjoy it. i bet you laugh.
Posted by: fdc at December 08, 2008 10:36 PM (T4Pr3)
29
Owens, Obama has fully disclosed his birth records. That's what the certificate of life birth is: a birth certificate. It contains all the pertinent information from the "vault copy." It has been confirmed as accurate by the state of Hawaii and factcheck.org. Hawaii does not make copies of the "vault" certificate, and they obviously aren't going to give out the actual piece of paper they have for their records. If you have a problem with that, take it up with the state, because that wasn't Obama's doing. Obama's birth was announced in a local Honolulu paper. He was born in Hawaii to an American woman. He is an American citizen. There is absolutely no evidence to the contrary.
For the nutters who refuse to accept what has already been released, nothing will ever prove Obama's citizenship. If Hawaii gives in to their demands and copies the long-form certificate, something they have never done before, the nuts will complain that they haven't personally seen the original. If the original is toured around the country for them to see, they'll fall back on the idea that it's fraudulent. They'll demand DNA analysis for the entire Obama clan. When that checks out, they'll demand something else. Your claim that Obama need only release this document (which he's not actually hiding) to "marginalize the fringe elements, and lessen hysteria" is laughable. Those fringe elements are already marginalized, and absolutely nothing will lessen their hysteria.
I ask you again: should Obama do everything these fringe whackjobs demand of him, and if he doesn't, is he responsible for increasing the chance that he will be assassinated? Note that "but but but BDS!" is not an acceptable answer.
Posted by: Jrod at December 08, 2008 10:46 PM (yS/Ys)
30
Okay, Dude, show us Obama's transcripts. Then tell me he didn't "slip through." A fish moves through water leaving more trace than Obama did through Columbia and Harvard.
Posted by: Steve Skubinna at December 08, 2008 11:46 PM (mfdQL)
31
When the painless process of producing a source document from an easily accessible and know location would tamp down a great deal of outrage and suspicion from the far left and right, and perhaps prevent a great deal of the insanity we saw from your liberal peers over the last eight years, it seems incumbent on a President who touts himself as "post-partisan" to help put to rest these suspicions.
Sounds good to me. By the above logic, President Bush should have pulled out of Iraq to prevent "insanity" from the left. I don't remember too many calls from the left for the president to get the U. S. out of Iraq because he's ticking us off & putting the Secret Service (& everyone else nearby) in danger.
And surely you understand about the admittedly over-used concept of "projection." This is a transparent, classic case thereof. As well as being on the level of "Nyah, nyah, you did it first!!" But that's forgetting 16 yrs. of Clinton Derangement Syndrome, not to mention Blame Clinton Syndrome, which has been the operating public relations policy of the Bush Admin. for the last eight yrs.
Completely on topic, you might want to suggest to your "far right" friends (we know you're a sensible middle-of-the-roader, you're not threatening anyone, just pointing a few things out) that they inquire into immigration records. After his indoctrination at the Indonesian madrassa, how did Obama get into (or back into, if you insist) the United States? He would have needed a passport, or, if he weren't a citizen, a visa or green card. I'm sure all your crack researchers can get going on that immediately. Maybe you can build a model of the plane or boat in which the messiah came to America, play around w/ it & take pictures to illustrate how he could have sneaked into Honolulu or wherever.
To the archives!!
Posted by: Malignant Bouffant at December 08, 2008 11:55 PM (ZOEFb)
32
Sigh.
Obama HAS NOT FOUGHT the releasing of his birth certificate.
He has received and shown his short-form birth certificate, which has been seen and touched in physical reality by factcheck.org and politifact.com, and which has been fully vouched for by the State of Hawaii.
The long-form birth certificate CAN NOT be viewed OR copied for Obama. The State of Hawaii does not make copies of the long-form birth certificates FOR ANYONE, FOR ANY REASON. They do not even have a process in place for it.
This is all in the public record.
Posted by: jim at December 09, 2008 12:14 AM (WCe2M)
33
This is a filthy post. You should be ashamed of yourself. Paranoia and stupidity are not valid excuses for this garbage. It is time to quit begging for free barbecues and get yourself a decent job.
Posted by: psychedelic santa at December 09, 2008 01:50 AM (7k1Lg)
34
Ah, the sweet smell of wingnuts burning in the morning.
Please continue to pursue this non-existent issue, it fits you all so well.
More windmills please.
-GSD
Posted by: GSD at December 09, 2008 08:02 AM (I4yBD)
35
I think all rational Republicans should continue to pursue this matter, using every penny and every minute they can drum up for support. This is the most important issue EVAH! And if Republicans succeed, there will be ponies for all!
Meanwhile, us adults will fix health care, the recession, the wars, wages, the credit crunch, and, you know, other not-so-important stuff.
Posted by: Timothy at December 09, 2008 09:46 AM (KJKSV)
36
If the result of a successful challenge would be to make Slow Joe Biden president, I say stop the inquiry NOW.
Posted by: Deuce Geary at December 09, 2008 11:57 AM (Q285d)
37
I don,t think the Democrats are that stupid to not have made sure their candidate qualified for the office. Therefore I believe Obama was been born in the USA. However, I also feel if there is any question as to his birth location it should be answered in such a way that will eliminate any doubt. I feel EVERY candidate should PROVE their qualifications and I do not feel that is unreasonable. If the candidate thinks it unreasonable, or cannot prove it, then they should not occupy the office.
Posted by: Rick at December 09, 2008 01:46 PM (FWmwx)
38
I doubt releasing the vault copy will satisfy anyone who is not satisfied with the response of the State of Hawaii at this time. The truthers would then charge that it is a forged birth certificate. There is no way that the allegations can be answered because there is always a new twist to the allegations.
Those who are levelling these allegations ought to be the ones who should be forced to come up with the proof supporting what they allege; Mr. Obama should be under no obligation to respond. Otherwise any nut can raise any allegation and force Mr. Obama to continuously have to prove that the allegations are false.
and that task is impossible when faced with a truther.
So I understand why he doesn't just release the birth certificate - will it end this? No. Then why indulge these paranoids? Why waste the time and energy and money indulging them?
Posted by: Mikey NTH at December 09, 2008 03:46 PM (O9Cc8)
39
Mikey NTH, there is not much time, money and energy to be wasted in complying with this very reasonable request. In fact, this minor piece of work would be done by others. If it does not end it, at least he can affirm he did it.
Posted by: Rick at December 09, 2008 04:35 PM (FWmwx)
40
So let me get this straight. Because there are racists who want to kill Obama for not being their idea of American, Obama should prove he is their idea of American?
Nice one. Make the president-elect of your country dance to the tune of racists. Now that's going to happen!
Posted by: Dr Zen at December 09, 2008 06:41 PM (ZeJI4)
41
Mikey NTH: 'So I understand why he doesn't just release the birth certificate - will it end this? No. Then why indulge these paranoids? Why waste the time and energy and money indulging them?'
well, he has wasted hundreds of thousands of dollars and probably some time in NOT indulging them - it would seem cheaper at this point - your metric, cost - to divulge rather than stonewall.
Dude:'Rich in KC: Ahhhhhhh, how could I have missed that connection?! Karl Marx wrote a book. Obama and a gazillion other people have written books. Now, I got it. They're all Marxists!'
Now I know you're just being all sensational and stuff. The proper conclusion from his statement is 'Writing a book does not disqualify one from being Marxist'.. And your rejoinder looks really weak at this point. Perhaps you should have asked for points proving his Marxism, but no, you went for the cheap laugh. Great debate technique.
Posted by: Bill Johnson at December 09, 2008 07:38 PM (fZKwr)
42
Rick: 'there is not much time, money and energy to be wasted in complying with this very reasonable request. In fact, this minor piece of work would be done by others. If it does not end it, at least he can affirm he did it.'
If you'll check the comments above, as well as a gadzillion others all over the web, you'll discover that there is NO PROCESS by which Obama can release any birth certificate other than that which he has already released.
So, I guess since there's no way he could make it happen, that your statement about not much time/money/energy wasted getting the document is technically true. If there is zero chance of success, then any time/money/energy expended can't be considered to be expended against that effort.
Unless, of course, you're clinically insane.
Posted by: sjohntucson at December 09, 2008 11:54 PM (N+dqs)
43
Bill and Rick:
I think you may have misread what I wrote. Let me try again: there is nothing Mr. Obama can do satisfy these truthers. Even if he could and did have the vault copy of the certificate brought out for viewing, the next allegation would be that the vault copy was a forgery and that Mr. Obama must prove the authenticity of it.
And if that is done, then on to the next "reasonable request to answer these allegations". There is no answer that can be given to satisfy a truther, ever. There is always a new twist to the allegations, or a new allegation.
I have an idea - why shouldn't those who bring the allegations be the ones to prove that their allegations are correct? They don't believe he was born in Hawaii? Then they should prove that.
So let's see the proof of these allegations, let's see the accuser put up or shut-up.
Posted by: Mikey NTH at December 10, 2008 08:39 AM (O9Cc8)
44
Wow. It looks like the Liberals/Truthers love to invert the burden of proof. So let me get this right; because they claim that fire can't melt steel, it proves that Obama must never produce his birth certificate?
Non-sequitor in the house.
Did someone eariler demand that CY should sometime "try" to argue with someone who is insane? Um. Have you read any of the Liberal commenters here in the last year? Oh sweet irony.
Posted by: brando at December 10, 2008 10:31 AM (qzOby)
45
sjohntucson, so I guess you want me to accept all things posted on the net as fact?
Posted by: Rick at December 10, 2008 01:06 PM (FWmwx)
46
jrod
you are wrong What obamas web site posted was a certification of live birth not a certificate of live birth
It does not have witness or doctors signature. name of hospital, address of parents etc. what was on his website just proves he was born period nothing else.
Posted by: dong_ha68 at December 10, 2008 02:32 PM (PPlyI)
47
Mickey NTH, I understand exactly what you mean. Even if your prediction would come true it is not an unreasonable request to see the Vault Copy as this is an important consitutional issue.
Regards to proving the allegations, my understanding is that the ones bringing suit have found no hospital records or witnesses, and the rumor that a birth notice appeared in local paper was not found.
I must say if this regarded George W. Bush the press would be relentless. Dan Rather would probably produce a forged birth certificate from some place like Turkey.
Posted by: Rick at December 10, 2008 02:42 PM (FWmwx)
48
(1) I am not a liberal.
(2) The one's bringing suit have an obligation to provide the evidence. In the event of all evidence being in the hands of a third party, they can subpoena that third party to provide evidence. The third party, Hawaii, has provided the evidence. A state official has provided testimony in written form, attesting that the document exists, it has been seen, and this is the information we release according to state law.
That is sufficient for the courts, under (IIRC) the FRE and state evidence rules. They only way to get past that would be to impeach the state official's testimony. Some evidence would have to be presented to do that, to say that the state official is lying, and I haven't seen any evidence to that. And I wouldn't expect there would be many witnesses about who could testify about a birth that happened in 1961. No reasonable person would expect that testimony, just as no reasonable person would pursue this beyond what the State of Hawaii is legally permitted or required to prove.
(3) Of course if it was G.W. Bush the press would be all over it. With the same results and the same 'dark suspicions'. And? Just because the press went crazy does it mean that crazy is now the standard everyone should have to meet? Is Mary Mapes looking for documentary evidence to support rumors and allegations the new standard?
There are better things to pursue than this.
Posted by: Mikey NTH at December 10, 2008 06:15 PM (TUWci)
49
Mikey NTH, "The third party, Hawaii, has provided the evidence. A state official provided testimony in written form, attesting the document exists, it has been seen, and this is the information we release according to state law"
One question, and I'm out of here. Did the State of Hawaii official testify that a certification of live birth or a certificate of live birth exists?
Posted by: Rick at December 11, 2008 07:59 AM (FWmwx)
50
All I know is that, if somebody came to me for a job and he promised that he was qualified for the job (U.S. citizen and such), but that he didn't have the paperwork on him, I would tell him to bring it when he showed up for his first day of work (if I hired him). If he didn't show up with the proof on his first day of work, I would send him home to get it. I simply wouldn't allow him to work (as by law I cannot) until he provides his Social Security Card and proof of citizenship.
It's that simple. I just want to see his birth certificate in order to know that he is qualified to be President. That's all. The vast majority of candidates (especially if there is _any_ doubt) release such information very early in the campaign. The fact that he hasn't released the information makes me skeptical. However, my skepticism and doubts can simply be laid to rest with the appropriate release of the Birth Certificate. I am sure that there are a lot of other people like myself who simply want the applicant for the job to prove that he is eligible to hold it and, once that is shown, we will be satisfied.
Posted by: Theophile at December 12, 2008 06:11 PM (D4S1a)
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December 05, 2008
The Facebook Friends Murder
Wake County NC authorities have identified the body recovered behind an unoccupied dwelling as 18-year-old Matthew Josiah Silliman, who had been the subject of a Silver Alert for missing adults with certain mental impairments in late November.
Four area high school students that were Sillimans' "friends" on Facebook are now
facing murder charges in Silliman's death:
As Silliman's identity was being confirmed, four Wake County high school students who are connected to him through the social networking site Facebook were denied bond when they appeared in court for the first time to face murder charges in his death.
Allegra Rose Dahlquist, 17, of 601 Walcott Way, Cary; Ryan Patrick Hare, 18; of 100 Walnut Hill Court, Apex; Aadil Shahid Khan, 17, of 901 Bristol Blue St., Apex; and Drew Logan Shaw, 16, of 107 Woolard Way, Apex, had been arrested Wednesday.
All four were in the Wake County jail Thursday evening. Their next court appearance is scheduled for Dec. 22.
Authorities have not released either a cause of death for Silliman, nor have they provided a motive for his murder. The WRAL reporter, however, hints at a possible angle:
Family members declined to comment after the brief court hearing, but Billy Shenk, a friend of Shaw's, said he and the 16-year-old were part of a "juggalo" crew, which Shenk described as a group of outcasts.
"It's not a gang, not violence," he said. "It's just a group of people who are tired of being picked on and everything, so we just form together and grew strong."
Shenk added that he does not think Shaw is a violent person.
"He's a really good kid after you guys get to know him. All these people are saying Gothic kids are the reason for all this. No, it's not," he said.
On his MySpace page, Shaw, a sophomore at Panther Creek High School in Cary, referred to himself as a "juggalo," which also denotes a fan of the hip-hop group Insane Clown Posse.
A friend of Shaw's, in a posting on his MySpace page Thursday, described it as "a state of mind," and belief in the Dark Carnival, a fictional theme in the group's albums. Numerous other Web sites explain the term in other details.
I said the reporter provided a hint; I didn't say it was necessarily a good one.
Various musical genres have been blamed for playing a role in homicides and suicides for as long as I can remember, and if these suspects shared musical interests it can indicate that they are acculturated similarly, but it does not mean that the music is a trigger for the murder. If it was we'd have
emos and
goths and
juggalos offing people (or more likely, themselves) at an astounding rate, or at least that greater than say, Britney Spears fans.
That said, it is possible that law enforcement beleives the
Dark Carnival mythology played a role in Silliman's death. If that is the contention of authorities or this reporter, however, they haven't yet decided to share why they think that was a contributing factor.
It will be interesting to see what, if any role Facebook postings by the deceased or the accused play in this case, and if they are used in the trials by either the prosecution or defense.
Facebook and MySpace pages and similar social media sites will continue to playa greater role in both criminal investigations and the background investigations by journalists of both crime suspects, and victims. As we become more immersed in the technology, the technology is going to strip away our anonymity and provide possible insights into our motivations. Profilers and criminal psychologists are going to have a field day once they start grasping and data-mining the technology. Let's just hope they draw the right decisions from what they discover.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
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Obviously the real culprit here is Facebook, which by recklessly providing their web service to all comers is directly responsible for this young man's death.
Consider - Facebook is explicitly designed to "bring people together", despite that a murder cannot even occur unless the victim and killer are first brought together. And then, to compound this, they offer this service indiscriminately to everyone regardless of age or experience or intent.
Now some fanatics may make the specious argument that Facebook and other facilitators of murder are protected by the First Amendment, but the simple fact is that the Amendment was designed to permit governments and media outlets to communicate, and does not confer an individual right.
Posted by: Steve Skubinna at December 06, 2008 10:35 PM (mfdQL)
2
(in response to an article read about a parent from apex high who blamed the novel "killing mr griffin" for the murder) THAT PARENT FROM APEX HIGH IS A ***ing MORON. I LIVE IN CARY JUST DOWN THE STREET FROM ALLEGRA. I DIDN'T KNOW ANY OF THESE KIDS BECAUSE I WENT TO A DIFFERENT SCHOOL AND GRADUATED TWO YEARS AGO BUT SERIOUSLY... THEY ARE OLD ENOUGH TO KNOW BETTER THAN TO ACT OUT WHAT THEY READ IN A BOOK! DON'T TRY AND SABOTAGE A PERFECTLY GOOD, INTERESTING, RELEVANT ENGLISH COURSE! 'KILLING MR GRIFFIN' IS AN ELOQUENT, WELL-WRITTEN PIECE OF LITERATURE. THESE KIDS WERE MESSED UP IN THE HEAD, ESPECIALLY HARE, BUT DREW WAS ONLY 16 ****ING YEARS OLD!!! BUT WHO DO WE BLAME HERE? THE PARENTS? THE OTHER KIDS? OR WERE THESE FOUR INDIVIDUALS JUST **CKED UP AS SOON AS THEY LEFT THE WOMB? IT'S HARD TO SAY BECAUSE THEIR MOTIVE IS UNKNOWN TO THE PUBLIC RIGHT NOW. THERE WERE KIDS WHO I WENT TO SCHOOL WITH WHO WERE ANARCHIST, MARILYN MANSON FANS AND DRESSED IN HARDCORE GOTHIC GEAR AND CUT THEMSELVES AND I REMEMBER ONE GIRL WHO SAID "I HATE PEOPLE". BUT ONCE YOU GOT TO KNOW THEM, THEY WERE COOL AS HELL! KIDS IN SCHOOL NOWADAYS PUT LABELS ON PEOPLE WHO ARE DIFFERENT AND JUST BECAUSE THESE KIDS WERE DIFFERENT, DOESN'T MAKE THEM COLD-BLOODED SOCIOPATHIC KILLERS. I CAN'T WAIT FOR THIS CASE TO UNRAVEL BECAUSE I THINK THERE'S MORE TO IT THAN MEETS THE EYE. MY PREDICTION? RYAN PLANNED THE WHOLE THING OUT BECAUSE (A) HE WAS ANGRY AT MATT FOR SOME REASON POSSIBLY TO DO WITH THE FACT THAT MATT'S PARENTS STILL CARED ABOUT HIM WHEREAS RYAN'S DIDN'T, (B) MATT HAD FEELINGS FOR ALLEGRA AND RYAN BECAME JEALOUS AND ANGRY, (C) MATT HAD MORE FRIENDS THAN RYAN AND RYAN WAS ANGRY BECAUSE HE FELT THEY SHOULD BOTH BE SOCIAL OUTCASTS TOGETHER AND HE FELT BETRAYED SO HE WENT TO EXTREME MEASURES, OR (D) MAYBE RYAN WAS INFURIATED WHEN MATT WENT TO HOLLY HILL AND BEGAN HIS COURSE OF MEDICATION BECAUSE RYAN DIDN'T BELIEVE IN PILLS AND SAW THEM AS "INVISIBLE HANDCUFFS" (PRISONBREAK; HAYWIRE) SO HE DECIDED TO PUT MATT OUT OF HIS MISERY BY KILLING HIM. ANYWAY, I THINK RYAN WAS THE SOCIOPATH/PSYCHOPATH OF THE GROUP AND THE LEADER. I DON'T KNOW WHAT TO MAKE OF DREW BUT HE'S SOOO YOUNG, I WANT TO BELIEVE HE'S INNOCENT. HE AND RYAN HAD TO SEEK PUBLIC DEFENDERS WHEREAS ALLEGRA'S WEALTHY PARENTS EMPLOYED ONE OF THE BEST ATTORNEYS IN THE AREA TO REPRESENT THEIR DAUGHTER AND AADIL'S PARENTS ALSO EMPLOYED AN ATTORNEY. I WANT TO KNOW WHY DREW'S PARENTS DIDN'T GET SOMEONE TO REPRESENT THEIR 16 YEAR OLD SON? THERE ARE SO MANY UNANSWERED QUESTIONS SURROUNDING THIS CASE. I HAVE FOLLOWED IT FROM THE BEGINNING, PERHAPS BECAUSE IT HAPPENED SO CLOSE TO HOME OR PERHAPS BECAUSE IT'S SO SHOCKING OR PERHAPS BECAUSE NONE OF THESE KIDS HAD AN ECONOMICALLY UNDERPRIVILEGED UPBRINGING AND ONLY ONE OF THEM HAD A PREVIOUS CONVICTION WITH THE LAW WHICH WAS FOR PAINTBALLING A SCHOOLBUS. IT JUST DOESN'T FIT...
Posted by: Anon at December 08, 2008 08:00 PM (J49ku)
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December 04, 2008
Charges Filed Against Police Chief in Accidental Machine Gun Death of Eight-Year-Old at MA Machine Gun Shoot; Father Amazingly Not Charged
This past October an eight-year-old was killed on the firing line of a machine gun shoot when he lost control of a Micro Uzi submachine gun he was firing and put a single 9mm bullet into his own head.
Charges have now been filed:
A police chief and a Massachusetts gun club have been indicted for involuntary manslaughter in the death of an 8-year-old boy who accidentally shot himself with a Uzi at an October gun expo in Massachusetts.
Pelham Police Chief Edward Fleury owns COP Firearms & Training, which sponsored the Machine Gun Shoot and Firearms Expo at the Westfield Sportsman's Club, where 8-year-old Christopher Bizilj accidentally shot himself in the head in October after losing control of the 9 mm Micro Uzi submachine gun.
In addition to the manslaughter indictments, Fleury and the Westfield Sportsman's Club were also indicted on four counts each of furnishing a gun to a minor.
Two other men, Carl Guiffre of Hartford, Conn., and Domenico Spano, of New Milford, Conn., also face involuntary manslaughter charges.
This story is an exercise in what happens when a series of bad judgement calls compound upon one another with tragic consequences.
As a father of an eight-year-old myself, I know that my child doesn't yet have the responsibility, situational awareness, or strength to handle any firearm responsibly, and I would never consent to letting her handle a submachine gun.
Even if the father did not know enough about the recoil of fully automatic weapons to know that his child should not be handling one, the instructor should have been familiar enough with the firearm to suspect that a child cannot handle one responsibly.
Third, the owner/operator of the shoot, the Police Chief that has been among those charged, should have posted some sort of minimum qualifications to participate in the shoot, and the physical age and capability to handle such firearms should arguably factor into who is allowed to participate; the dead child obviously and tragically did not meet these standards.
I'm not sure if involuntary manslaughter charges are the best way to handle this negligent death, but if charges are to be brought, I'm disappointed that they were not distributed equally to those obviously the most to blame.
The judgement of the father of the child to allow his child to try to fire a machine gun was the largest mistake in a string of mistakes, and he was not charged.
Perhaps the prosecutor agonized over the possible charges and felt that the family suffered enough with the loss of the child, but this father, in my opinion, is the individual most directly to blame for the death of his child, and if others are charged for this tragic death, he should be as well.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
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1
Bob,
It's MASSACHUSETTS, the land where the responsible party is never at fault. Only OTHER people are ever at fault.
Posted by: Bill Smith at December 04, 2008 10:14 PM (8aUFt)
2
What a sad situation. A stupid decision turned into a tragic mistake. There are good ways to get children involved in learning about shooting and shooting safety, but a micro Uzi is probably not one of them.
Posted by: Mike Gray at December 05, 2008 01:09 AM (fBnZs)
3
I disagree with the author of the post. While the father was stupid and negligent, there is no punishment on earth that could equal the loss of a child. I am a gun owner and a father, and even imagining my son would die as a result of my stupidity is almost unbearable.
Posted by: Walter at December 05, 2008 10:15 AM (cRO6v)
4
If you don't charge the person most responsible for the child's welfare with negligence then you shouldn't be charging anyone else. This should be written down as a tragedy and let go. The father must live in his own personal hell for the rest of his life, no further action need be taken.
The next most "responsible" person is the instructor who should have known better than to let a 8 yr old child handle a automatic weapon. He should have his instructor's license revoked or at least suspended for several years. This likely removes the man's livelihood for a while and that along with knowing his poor judgment cost a child his life is punishment enough.
The buck stops there. The sponsor should not be liable, any rational individual would assume common sense would prevent such an incident. In this case both "fail safes" failed as the common sense of the instructor and the father failed to prevent this tragedy. Sorry but this hearkens to "stupidity labels" if they pursue this matter. We all know coffee is hot, not to use metal ladders around power lines, etc.
Posted by: Scott at December 05, 2008 11:17 AM (FaCaW)
5
I let my son shoot machineguns when he was 4, I was a class III Dealer then, but never something like a submachinegun that I couldn't keep control of by wrapping my arms around him and supporting the weapon. I would certainly never turn a child loose with any weapon.
Posted by: georgeh at December 05, 2008 02:40 PM (1tw+N)
6
What is the purpose of law?? The purpose is to punish evildoers. None of these persons willfully murdered anyone. It was a very tragic ACCIDENT. If I was on the jury... I would give an "innocent" verdict. Period.
There is no reason for punishment. People die accidental deaths all the time for reasons of negligence... human error... etc.
Now they have created "vehicular homicide" for accidental deaths that occur.
The desire for vengeance in this nation for simple human errors of reason or forethought with no malice is WRONG... and unlawful.
If all this is true, then beach owners can be charged with "homicide" every time a person drowns, etc.,etc., etc.,
We make mistakes. When are jurors and citizens going to realize that are BASIC LAWS are often a SHAM and we've got to stop participating in the INJUSTICE of BAD LAWS.
Meanwhile, willful massmurdering childkillers are protected by law... when they ought to be in prison for the rest of their lives for committing mass murder as abortions. That's WILLFUL PREMEDITATED MURDER... for profit.
Let's start thinking as citizen jurors and put a stop to injustice. NONE of these people should be charged with murder... it was an ACCIDENT!!!
"Involuntary Manslaughter" is a TRAVESTY OF JUSTICE in the first place - so the underlying presupposition of the charge is FALSE and WRONG and NO ONE should ever face that charge.
It's either murder, or it's an accident, and the law does not EXIST (or shouldn't) to PUNISH ACCIDENTAL DEATH!!
Posted by: l at December 05, 2008 03:18 PM (tdrxf)
7
I eagerly await the charges of murder being filed against the mayor of the city and the governor of Massachusetts. They're just as culpable as the show sponsor is.
Posted by: ConservativeWanderer (formerly C-C-G) at December 05, 2008 08:08 PM (Banpw)
8
Until all you 2nd Amendment folks...recognize the rest of our Constitution...
I read all your harping about "personal responsibly"
Helmet laws save lives...seat belt laws...save lives.
Banning cell phones save lives.
Trigger lock laws..may just keep children from killing each other...
The person and the "club" that allowed this to happen? Should be prosecuted. Having raised two children...
at one point in their lives were this age...
I place the gun culture that believe children need to fire a gun...in the same category as pedophiles..
and other abuse.
Do any of you..with a child truly believe a child of this age has the cognitive development necessary?
Posted by: nogo more at December 06, 2008 04:33 AM (wqLhp)
9
"I place the gun culture that believe children need to fire a gun...in the same category as pedophiles..
and other abuse."
That's because you are a raging moron.
Posted by: Conservative CBU at December 06, 2008 06:47 AM (M+Vfm)
10
"Helmet laws save lives...seat belt laws...save lives.
Banning cell phones save lives.
Trigger lock laws..may just keep children from killing each other..."
Indeed, why don't we just pass laws to deal with any kind of potential danger and every conceivible situation so we can just make sure people always do what is best for them and leave nothing to chance? Good luck with that.
Posted by: Todd at December 06, 2008 08:54 AM (PeEyj)
11
Nogo, when are you going to get around to banning kitchen knives and baseball bats? It's possible to commit murder and other crimes with those, too.
Posted by: ConservativeWanderer (formerly C-C-G) at December 06, 2008 09:01 AM (aCGrL)
12
An eight year old (or pretty much any inexperienced shooter) experiencing loss of control of a machine pistol that could result in serious bodily injury to the shooter or another seems like a foreseable consequence of allowing the inexperienced person to fire the weapon.
I've shot enough to have seen several experienced shooters have an AD. A child or inexperienced adult? You can bet money something just might go wrong.
So yeah, I'm o.k. with the charges.
I have friends who own class III weapons, and yes they allow others to shoot them. But they also exercise alot of caution - up to things like standing with the shooter, holding the weapon, and short loading magazines until they gain some confidence in the abilities and responsibility of the shooter.
Posted by: ThomasD at December 06, 2008 12:50 PM (UK5R1)
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I could see introducing an eight year old to firearms with a .22 rifle. In fact, I think it would lead to greater responsibility and safety. Letting an eight year old shoot a full auto Uzi.....that is a decision I just don't understand.
Posted by: George Bruce at December 06, 2008 02:17 PM (rbBe5)
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Thomas, George, I agree... but the person with primary responsibility is the father... the others have less, if any, responsibility. So why not charge the person with the most responsibility first?
Posted by: ConservativeWanderer (formerly C-C-G) at December 06, 2008 02:51 PM (N+CS/)
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The reason they charged the sponsors, is because they didn't provide a certified instructor. They provided an uncertified, 15 year old kid.
The reason they didn't charge the dad, is because when he asked if that was a good gun for his kid to try, the staff told him it would be.
I agree with the post, dad should have been charged anyways. Just bringing some facts that some of y'all clearly aren't aware of.
Posted by: Frank at December 06, 2008 07:38 PM (0jXBE)
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Frank, two words. "Caveat emptor." If Dad believed the staff, that does not negate his responsibility.
I am not saying that staff shouldn't be charged... but Dad should be as well, if anyone is. If Dad isn't, no one should be.
Posted by: ConservativeWanderer (formerly C-C-G) at December 06, 2008 07:41 PM (N+CS/)
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Go driving with Ted Kennedy in MA and die-tough luck.
Go shooting with your dad and die-outrage.
I wouldn't go shooting or swiming in MA if my life depended on it.
Posted by: pinandpuller at December 07, 2008 03:31 AM (nBjKI)
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I am a full supporter of the Second Amendment, but "you got to know your kid".
The average 8 year-old just isn't ready for a tricky recoil. If my son had asked me at that age if he could fire such a weapon, I would have said "when you are a little older". At age 14, he has been shooting .22 rifles since he was 11 (and this year a shotgun) in the closely-monitored confines at Boy Scout camp.
It brings to mind a story when I was a senior in high school, 35+ years ago. A friend's younger brother, a couple of years younger, fired a .45 in a controlled setting, but not being ready for the recoil, the pistol came back and broke his jaw.
And I have known three people who have been slightly injured by guns "they thought weren't loaded."
Sadly, at the shooting event, there should have been one of those signs you see at amusement parks, saying "if you are shorter than this"...
The instructor should have said "I'm sorry, he is not old enough, yet."
We need to ask ourselves when approaching a "situation" - "What is the worst thing that can happen?. And err on the side of caution.
I also struggle with whether the dad should have been charged.
Posted by: on-the-rocks at December 07, 2008 09:50 AM (jA39H)
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Fatal "accidents" of any nature are almost always the result of a string of poor decisions.
Posted by: PA at December 07, 2008 08:36 PM (CwzFE)
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Pointless Cluster Bomb Ban Signed
92 nations signed a ban on cluster bombs yesterday, a move that is more or less meaningless as the largest producers and users of such munitions—including Russia, China, and the United States—refused to sign on.
Cluster bombs are composed of grenade-sized bomblets inside a air-delivered bomb, missile, or artillery shell. Once the larger shell reaches the target area, it disperses the bomblets over a wider area than could be covered by a single conventional bomb. Cluster bombs are particularly effective against concentrations of dismounted infantry, unarmored targets such as supply depots, refueling stations, airfields, and supply convoys, and lightly armored targets, such as armored personnel carriers and self-propelled artillery.
While cluster bombs are effective area weapons, the bomblets have an unacceptably higher failure rate. Typically several grenade-sized bomblets in a cluster bomb fail to detonate, leaving live, fused explosives on the ground that are a significant threat to civilians long after the military conflict is over.
Cluster bombs have a legitimate military use, and I doubt cluster bombs will disappear from inventories in the next few decades, but perhaps technological advances could render them less of a lingering threat. Using explosives that degrade quickly within minutes of deployment would be one possible way to minimize the threat left by unexploded bomblets, and perhaps another avenue would be to go the opposite route, using highly corrosive explosives that disable a bomblet's fuse and "eat" the unexploded bomblet from the inside out, leaving a relatively inert husk.
Small diameter bombs (SDBs) or other weapons systems will eventually make cluster munitions obsolete, but a coalition of the toothless signing bans against munition systems that they cannot effectively manufacture or deploy in combat will not have any meaningful long-term impact.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
09:13 AM
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1
More mental masturbation at it's finest! Guess we'll just have to go back to doing H&I fire with napalm and willie pete....which you have to admit is just as spectacular and very deadly. Oh well, whatever gets the job done, while protecting the environment and the innocents!
Posted by: Tonto at December 04, 2008 09:56 AM (Qv1xF)
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The Liberals are already calling cluster-bombs a WMD.
They don't consider ricin or sarin WMDs, but yet they pick a conventional weapon like cluster-bombs.
They told me that any non-nuclear weapon "doesn't count" as a WMD. Double-think at it's finest.
I still remember back a few years ago when they went ape over WP. They claimed that it counts as a WMD chemical weapon, because, get this, it has a chemical reaction.
Posted by: brando at December 04, 2008 10:19 AM (qzOby)
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There are still unexploded munitions buried in farm fields in France from WWI. Every so often a farmer, unfortunately, gets blown up. It sucks, but as long as war is a reality, then so are the unfortunate side effects.
These bans are no different than civilian gun bans in the U.S. They're all well and good until you come upon a country (criminal) who doesn't care about cluster bomb treaties (gun laws).
Maybe the world would be a better place if these people tried harder to avoid conflict altogether instead of worrying about limiting civilian casualties. The problem might resolve itself.
In the meantime, there's no good reason for us to try and limit our capability, in effect tying one hand behind our back.
Posted by: Mike Gray at December 04, 2008 10:40 AM (5npD/)
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When I was a young 'un, the weapons we now characterize as WMD were known as NCB - Nuclear, Chemical, Biological.
I wonder who was responsible for the change in terminology to the more emotive "weapons of mass destruction"?
Of these weapons, the only one that (IMO) is truly a weapon of mass destruction is the nuclear weapon.
And America is the only country that has used weapons of mass destruction to kill thousands of civilians.
Posted by: Suilamhain the Observant at December 04, 2008 11:12 AM (VRb5p)
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Earlier this year a Richmond area relic hunter was polishing up what he thought was a Civil War cannon ball. Turned out to be a powder filled shell. Pronounced dead on scene. The shell was at least 143 years old and still deadly. At least the signers of the anti-cluster bomb treaty will feel all warm and fuzzy tonight while they're sipping their fair market cocca
Posted by: Stretch at December 04, 2008 12:13 PM (hZLod)
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And America is the only country that has used weapons of mass destruction to kill thousands of civilians.
Yea, the thousands in the villages Saddam nerve gassed just got up, shook it off, and walked away like nothing happened...and the Japanese never performed biological experiments on Chinese prisoners either.
Posted by: PA at December 04, 2008 12:50 PM (CwzFE)
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Good point PA. Bear in mind Suli graciously modified the rules for his statement that only Nukuyler weapons are WMD. So within the very narrow scope he sets, the US is the only nation to succesfully deploy such a system in combat, and yes thousands of civilians were killed in those engagements. Not sure if Suli is actually throwing stones at the US, but I hope he doesn't confuse acts of war with genocide.
More to the point are your (PA's) comments. Saddam deployed chemical area weapons, and the Japanese did experiment with biologics. Additionally, Hitler was fond of the efficiency of gas (>1 million?), while Stalin was more pragmatic (20 million?).
I hope Suli also appreciates that the US is supposedly no longer in the Chem/Bio business, which, as he points out leaves only nuclear as a response to attacks of either of the other two non-conventional types??? I personally have always considered this a very powerful deterent. It certainly seems to have made Saddam think twice in PGW1 (Desert Storm).
Posted by: Gus Bailey at December 04, 2008 01:32 PM (LZarw)
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Of these weapons, the only one that (IMO) is truly a weapon of mass destruction is the nuclear weapon.
Utter hogwash, both historically ignorant and patently dishonest.
Of course Suilamhain the Observant would attempt to define WMDs to exclude chemical weapons (or for that matter airliners); to do so allows him to dishonestly paint the United States as the only purveyor of WMD casualties, conveniently ignoring 2400 years of chemical weapons use that started with the Spartans in the Peloponnesian War.
He also seeks ignore the widespread the use of WMD chemical agents in WWI to cause 1,300,000 casualties, (including 90,000 deaths).
Even after WWI, the British, Spanish, and Italians used chemical weapons in the 1920 s and 30s in combat, and the Nazis used Zyklon B in gas chambers to commit the genocide of millions.
Egypt used phosgene and mustard gas again Yemen in the 1960s, and Russian forces used "Yellow Rain" (trichothecene mycotoxins) in regional wars (including Laos, Kampuchea, and Afghanistan) in the 1970s and 1980s.
But it was Iraqi forces under Saddam Hussein that used chemical weapons in greater concentrations and of more kinds than any modern nation including the first confirmed use of nerve agents) in the Iran-Iraq War, and later against the Iraqi people.
The difference in these uses of WMD and the U.S> use of atomic bombs at the end of WWII, was that the United States used atomic bombs to save hundreds of thousands of lives (if not a million or more) that would have been lost if the Allies had been forced into an amphibious invasion and grinding assault on the Japanese homeland.
That's the reality. I'm sorry if Suilamhain the Not-So-Observant would rather ignore those truths.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at December 04, 2008 02:19 PM (HcgFD)
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Cluster bombs will be replaced by death rays from space that not only kill every living creature in the designated area, it steralizes the area. It will be a useful weapon on any area the size of D.C., which I hope is the first victim of it's use. By the way I'm watching the daily comedy show called 'congressional hearings' on the automobile company bailout as I type this.
Schumer and Dodd questioning the ethics/honest of anyone is a hoot.
Posted by: Scrapiron at December 04, 2008 02:19 PM (GAf+S)
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"It will be a useful weapon on any area the size of D.C., which I hope is the first victim of it's use."
What!?
Posted by: brando at December 04, 2008 02:55 PM (qzOby)
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I arrived at DaNang AB, RVN in late 1969, just after the TET attack. My unit was the 366 MMS. The NVA got in a lucky shot and hit the bomb dump at some sensitive point and set off a chain reaction involving one section of the storage yard. Afterwards, there were hundreds, if not thousands of un-exploded ordinance laying around everywhere. Most of the big stuff was un-fused and safe to pick up and dispose of by EOD. The bomblets were very dangerous. Some had spun up and armed but didn't blow up. The rest had just been scattered on the ground. EOD used a big chain drag to blow up the sensitive ones and us new guys got to help pick up the remainder (by hand). I was not a happy troop. At least no one got hurt.
I was amazed at how many 250's and 500's were thrown everywhere and did not explode.
I am thankful that I didn't have to work around things that go BOOM after 4 years.
Posted by: Marc Boyd at December 04, 2008 06:35 PM (Zoziv)
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As I recall the story, the relic collector killed by the explosives-filled Civil War shell did NOT misidentify it as a solid and therefore cannonball, but instead somehow caused it to explode while attempting to remove the fuse and gunpowder -- something he had done successfully many times before.
Posted by: Calumet7 at December 04, 2008 10:29 PM (Cs03u)
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And America is the only country that has used weapons of mass destruction to kill thousands of civilians.
Posted by Suilamhain the Observant at December 4, 2008 11:12 AM
If that is supposed to make us feel guilty, you aren't succeeding.
Posted by: iconoclast at December 05, 2008 12:40 AM (JP1UC)
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I was expressing my opinion that nuclear is the real WMD.
There is no doubt that chemical weapons have killed enormous numbers of people over the years. The difference is that you have to deploy a lot of chemicals to kill a lot of people. Nuclear weapons provide a much greater ROI in terms of killing power.
Of course I was aware of the casualties caused by chemical weapons in WW I, the inter war years, and by Saddam Hussein, which you elaborated on in some detail.
What you didn't mention at any point is that the US supported Saddam Hussein during the Iran-Iraq war, and continued that support even after his use of chemical weapons became known.
Posted by: Suilamhain the Observant at December 05, 2008 09:15 AM (VRb5p)
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Nuclear weapons provide a much greater ROI in terms of killing power.
Not even close to being remotely true. It costs billions, if not trillions to develop a nuclear weapons program. Chemical and bioweapon WMD programs to attack similar numbers and create similar casualties are far less expensive, easier to develop, facilities are easier disguise, and deployment methods are for more numerous and unobtrusive, with signatures far less distinctive.
You really don't have the first clue what you are talking about, do you?
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at December 05, 2008 09:25 AM (HcgFD)
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Errmm, did you read this bit...
"What you didn't mention at any point is that the US supported Saddam Hussein during the Iran-Iraq war, and continued that support even after his use of chemical weapons became known."
Posted by: Suilamhain the Observant at December 05, 2008 09:31 AM (VRb5p)
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Yes, Sully, we saw that. It is also utterly irrelevant to the subject at hand.
We also supported the British in WWI when they deployed chemical WMDs, and practiced biowar ourselves in the 1800s by giving the blankets of smallpox victims to Native Americans to infect their tribes. Most large nations have either created WMDs deployed WMDs, or allied themselves with nations who have.
All of that is utterly irrelevant to the subject at hand. This is your first and only troll warning. Keep it up, and you'll be banned, with your inane commentary dismissed.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at December 05, 2008 09:49 AM (HcgFD)
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I'm perplexed - what exactly is the subject at hand? I simply believe that nuclear weapons are in a different league compared to chemical and bio agents in terms of killing power.
If the US had decided to use chemical means to destroy Hiroshima (or rather kill most of its inhabitants) how many bombers, and what types of bombs and bombing techniques would have to be employed? Methinks it would have been completely unfeasible.
My comment about ROI was not a reference to the costs of developing nuclear weapons. It was a (perhaps badly phrased) way of saying that you can kill far more people with a single nuclear weapon than with a similarly sized chemical weapon.
Can you show me any instance of a similar number of people being killed by a single chemical weapon in a single incident as were killed in Hiroshima or Nagasaki? I think not.
Posted by: Suilamhain the Observant at December 05, 2008 10:07 AM (VRb5p)
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Perhaps you should look up Operation Downfall... if you really are curious.
Posted by: Patrick Chester at December 05, 2008 11:13 AM (MOvul)
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The subject at hand, Suila, was cluster bombs. Brando's comment about how "some are already calling them WMD's" started the process of derailing the thread, and your comment finished the process. Now can we stop talking about something irrelevant to the main topic, and start talking about cluster bombs again?
Posted by: Robin Munn at December 05, 2008 11:19 AM (hubMi)
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"What you didn't mention at any point is that the US supported Saddam Hussein during the Iran-Iraq war, and continued that support even after his use of chemical weapons became known."
Feel free to detail that "support." That canard has already been reduced to rubble, but I'd be happy to make it bounce one more time.
My comment about ROI was not a reference to the costs of developing nuclear weapons.
You should find words that mean what you're trying to say. Return on investment references cost, by definition.
Posted by: Pablo at December 05, 2008 11:46 AM (yTndK)
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The world's most deadly WMD, proven by every race, creed, color, and society in history is the human mind. Long before there ever even WAS a USA, mass killing has been a way of life for humanity. The Mongols, the Huns, the Japaneese, the Crusades, the Muslim invasions, the list goes on forever................and that's just a couple examples. We should be used to it by now.
Posted by: Tonto at December 05, 2008 08:32 PM (Qv1xF)
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I must point out that the US never "used" infected blankets,
as is commonly claimed. That has been researched and refuted.
Posted by: Larry at December 06, 2008 09:37 AM (qs4He)
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I think that certain individuals want to prohibit the US from using cluster bombs because they're such a good weapon, and they'd love do hamstring the US.
I believe that the failure rate is much too high, but that's not really what this treaty does. It's just a flat out ban of a good weapon. So they just scream that it's illegal when it actually isn't. (Same for WP) What's a reasonable failure rate? 30%? 15%? 9%? Whatever could be achieved would never be good enough for the Liberals, because their goal isn't to get an effective weapon that protects non-combatants, but rather to remove weapons altogether. If the developers get it down to 10%, the Liberals would just move the goalposts again, and demand that it isn't 8%. And so on. CY had some good ideas about how to make them safer, but there would be no way to appease them, because a safe/effective weapon isn't their goal.
See? I wrote a comment without stating how perplexed I am (because I'm not), and also without using the word "Methinks".
Posted by: brando at December 06, 2008 11:59 AM (gNIlp)
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SDB's are not designed to replace cluster bombs, but rather to reduce collateral damage that would be caused by using a 2K pound bomb to take down a terrorist safe house in the middle of a city.
Posted by: emdfl at December 06, 2008 12:12 PM (N1uaO)
26
Some (in-depth) explanation of that "army used smallpox" story (B.S. that Ward Churchill was pushing before) --
http://hnn.us/articles/7302.html
http://www.plagiary.org/smallpox-blankets.pdf
Posted by: Larry at December 06, 2008 01:23 PM (AGMH1)
27
This is really a moot point, made by people with no other agenda than to limit our use of effective weapons. Already we are manufacturing cluster bombs with self-destructing submunitions:
"Submunitions are used to destroy an enemy in place (impact) or to slow or prevent enemy movement away from or through an area (area denial). Impact submunitions go off when they hit the ground. Area-denial submunitions, including FASCAM, have a limited active life and self-destruct after their active life has expired."
From Federation of American Scientists website.
Ultimately, the impact submunitions will all have self-destuct mechanisms limiting the destructive life of the munitions to a few days.
Posted by: douglas at December 07, 2008 03:36 AM (20QoQ)
28
During Vietnam the Soviet stooges tried to argue that .50-cal machine guns were illegal weapons. Someone else mentioned the silly campaign of lies that tried to turn white phosphorous smoke rounds into chemical weapons. This is just another phase in the campaign to turn anything the US does into a crime.
If, somehow, firearms stopped working and the US military adopted Roman arms, they'd find some grounds for declaring the gladius an "illegal weapon".
Posted by: Rob Crawford at December 07, 2008 09:04 AM (Bpq+O)
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The dud rate of CBUs is often caused by operator error not design deficiency. We dropped many cans of CBU-24, 49 and 52 in South East Asia. As a Stormy FAC out of DaNang, we carried 2 cans of CBU52 and found them very useful killing trucks.
The CBUs all use a SUU-30 dispenser - a clam shell, designed to separate safely from the aircraft, arm its radar fuse and open at a pre set altitude above the ground. If you "press" (drop below your planned altitude) the radar fuse may arm below its opening altitude and never see the range. The munition will hit at 12 o'clock and detonate low order, scattering bomblets around the crater.
In a proper delivery, the dispenser opens releasing several hundred soft ball or golf ball sized submunitions. These bomblets have vanes causing them to spin as they fall, arming a contact or delayed fuse through centrifugal motion. If they hit before they arm, they will not detonate.
There is a story about Ramsey Clark visiting POWs in Hanoi in 1971. The NVA had given him an unexploded CBU24 bomblet which he was tossing up in the air and catching. The POWs were almost all pilots. One of them told him to "Spin it faster!" Unfortunately, Clark did not.
One particularly bizarre event in 1972 involved a B52 cell at 28,000 feet dropping low drag Mk-82s from the wing stations and higher drag CBUs from the bomb bay. As the weapons descended, the 500 pounders gradually distanced themselves from the cluster bombs which had armed and were looking for 1,500' above the ground. At an altitude of about 15,000, the radar fuses saw the sticks of iron bombs and opened, scattering the bomblets over miles. The Buffs discontinued their use of CBUs.
Generally, CBUs are very effective against troops in the open.
Posted by: arch at December 07, 2008 12:07 PM (gPMC3)
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So, as Suilamhain has so aptly demonstrated, the international definition of "WMD" is "whichever weapons the United States uses effectively". If a weapon is used effectively by America's enemies, by definition that is not WMD. Case in point: Whatever happened to the campaign against land mines? Remember when that was a huge deal, Princess Diana and all that? I'll tell you what happened: IED. Yes, an IED is a land mine. And when the internationalists saw that AlQ was using them successfully against American forces in Iraq, the ban-the-land-mines movement went totally silent. See, as long as they're killing Americans, land mines are OK.
Posted by: Cousin Dave at December 09, 2008 07:05 PM (AfORa)
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