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Wednesday Morning Rant [Joe Mannix]

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Grave robbers

In all the war, I never received a more direct shock. As I turned over and twisted in bed the full horror of the news sank in upon me. There were no British or American ships in the Indian Ocean or the Pacific except the American survivors of Pearl Harbor, who were hastening back to California. Across this vast expanse of waters, Japan was supreme, and we everywhere were weak and naked.
This is what Winston Churchill said of learning about the sinking of the HMS Prince of Wales and the HMS Repulse off the cost of Malaya (now Malaysia) in December, 1941.

The ships had been deployed in an effort to protect Singapore from Imperial Japan. The ships were quickly sunk by Imperial Japanese air power, resulting in the deaths at sea of 842 Royal Navy sailors. Singapore would fall not long after and over 100,000 Britons would become POWs. The ships' locations are well known and are treated as - and internationally recognized as - war graves. The Royal Navy "flies" the White Ensign on the wrecks, and periodically dives to the wrecks to replace the banner.

But perhaps never again. There is a good chance that the wrecks - and graves - have been seriously damaged or destroyed. Last week, Malaysian authorities found unexploded WWII munitions on a jetty in the area. Then a diver and fisherman reported to Malaysian authorities that they spotted what appeared to be a dredging ship parked in the wreck area. That ship did not have its locating/identifying transponder turned on. Malaysian authorities impounded the Red Chinese dredger Chuan Hong 68 for investigation after the ship unloaded items from the HMS Prince of Wales.

The wrecks have likely been scavenged by the Red Chinese. It would not be the first time. Scavengers blew up part of the wreck in 2015 to free materials. It would also not be the first time that the Red Chinese have done similar things. They have broken up and scavenged various WWII-era Japanese shipwrecks (both merchant and naval vessels), some of which are also designated war graves. It appears that they have done so again, this time looting western wrecks.

But why? Likely for two reasons. First, there are the mercantile considerations. Ships of that era - particularly western ships - use very high-grade steel. Ships sunk before 1945 are particularly valuable because they are free of radioactive isotopes that were introduced when we started testing atomic weapons. This is high-grade, radiation-free steel that is useful for the manufacture of some specialty scientific and medical equipment.

The other reason is the Red Chinese anti-diplomatic system they call "Wolf Warrior Diplomacy." Named after a Chinese action movie, it is the "diplomatic" approach used by Xi Jinping and is deliberately aggressive, often insulting, arrogant and contemptuous. Looting western war graves has a Wolf Warrior angle as well: "this is our domain, our ocean, our territory, our prerogative. We do what we want, you can do nothing." Humiliation is the goal. This is Red China. Authoritarian, aggressive, deliberately offensive and at war - if not yet a shooting war - with all rivals.

Grave robbing is just part of the kink.

Posted by: Open Blogger at 11:00 AM




Comments

(Jump to bottom of comments)

1 Humiliation is the goal.

--

You mean like tea-bagging the United States with the spy balloon?

Posted by: You had your day for dead soldiers, now here's a month for men who are sexually aroused by feces at May 31, 2023 11:01 AM (5/7b/)

2 Morn' all

Posted by: It's me donna at May 31, 2023 11:01 AM (bs+z0)

3 You mean like tea-bagging the United States with the spy balloon?
Posted by: You had your day for dead soldiers, now here's a month for men who are sexually aroused by feces at May 31, 2023 11:01 AM (5/7b/)
++++
I think that was more about actual spying, but a nice bonus is a nice bonus regardless.

Posted by: Joe Mannix (Not a cop!) at May 31, 2023 11:02 AM (DU+/6)

4 Again, depth charges to set off all the sunk shells to give the men a fitting grave.

Posted by: AZ deplorable moron at May 31, 2023 11:02 AM (ZoxPj)

5 It was my understanding that the CCP had decided to back off on the WWD. It turns out that being a complete a***ole is not a winning strategy to make friends and influence people.

Posted by: Archimedes at May 31, 2023 11:02 AM (eOEVl)

6 FIRST!!!!!

Posted by: Sponge - F*ck Joe Biden at May 31, 2023 11:02 AM (9gDA7)

7 Well, they more or less overthrew the US government without firing a shot.

Posted by: Martini Farmer at May 31, 2023 11:03 AM (Q4IgG)

8 It was my understanding that the CCP had decided to back off on the WWD. It turns out that being a complete a***ole is not a winning strategy to make friends and influence people.
Posted by: Archimedes at May 31, 2023 11:02 AM (eOEVl)
++++
They've toned it down some, but it's still active, especially in greater Asia.

Posted by: Joe Mannix (Not a cop!) at May 31, 2023 11:03 AM (DU+/6)

9 Also, it is worth noting that the remains of the men, including their skeletons, have long since dissolved and become one with the sea. That does not excuse what China is doing.

Posted by: Archimedes at May 31, 2023 11:04 AM (eOEVl)

10 Nice dredging ship you got there. Be a shame if anything happened to it.

Posted by: Diogenes at May 31, 2023 11:05 AM (e4fEA)

11 Well, they more or less overthrew the US government without firing a shot.

Posted by: Martini Farmer at May 31, 2023 11:03 AM (Q4IgG)

Bought it, apparently.

Posted by: BignJames at May 31, 2023 11:05 AM (AwYPR)

12 China is asshoe.

Posted by: Bulgaroctonus at May 31, 2023 11:05 AM (mw8fy)

13 Nice dredging ship you got there. Be a shame if anything happened to it.

Posted by: Diogenes at May 31, 2023 11:05 AM (e4fEA)

The Amazing Mr. Limpet... Mine

Posted by: Wierzbowski formerly QID at May 31, 2023 11:05 AM (OgrpQ)

14 For some reason China thinks America was responsible for the Opium Trade. Weird.

Posted by: Puddinhead at May 31, 2023 11:06 AM (fWTJL)

15 China hasn't been overthrown in a global effort to eradicate Earth of their communist ass yet, why exactly?

Posted by: Sponge - F*ck Joe Biden at May 31, 2023 11:06 AM (9gDA7)

16 Also, it is worth noting that the remains of the men, including their skeletons, have long since dissolved and become one with the sea. That does not excuse what China is doing.
Posted by: Archimedes at May 31, 2023 11:04 AM (eOEVl)
++++
Right. The wrecks of the Prince of Wales and Repulse are also of tremendous historical importance, representing the allied nadir in the Pacific (and the Japanese zenith).

Posted by: Joe Mannix (Not a cop!) at May 31, 2023 11:07 AM (DU+/6)

17
Bought it, apparently.
Posted by: BignJames at May 31, 2023 11:05 AM (AwYPR)



Was going to say that. They didn't overthrow shit. They bought it outright.

Posted by: Sponge - F*ck Joe Biden at May 31, 2023 11:07 AM (9gDA7)

18 It's OK, Hunter sold them salvage rights.

Posted by: henry at May 31, 2023 11:07 AM (JMDly)

19 For some reason China thinks America was responsible for the Opium Trade. Weird.

They know it was Britain, but what's the point in humiliating and demonizing them? They're irrelevant on the world stage. We are not.

Posted by: Archimedes at May 31, 2023 11:08 AM (eOEVl)

20 That 6 foot long Q-tip is a scientific tool.

Posted by: humphreyrobot at May 31, 2023 11:08 AM (tGUk4)

21 It's OK, Hunter sold them salvage rights.
Posted by: henry at May 31, 2023 11:07 AM (JMDly)
++++
LOL. It would surprise me not even in the slightest to learn that one Biden or another auctioned off salvage rights to USN shipwrecks in international waters.

Posted by: Joe Mannix (Not a cop!) at May 31, 2023 11:08 AM (DU+/6)

22 hiya

Posted by: JT at May 31, 2023 11:09 AM (T4tVD)

23 The Chinese are an implacable enemy.

They own the president and many senior U.S. officials.

Deal with it.

Posted by: San Franpsycho at May 31, 2023 11:09 AM (RIvkX)

24 China hasn't been overthrown in a global effort to eradicate Earth of their communist ass yet, why exactly?

Posted by: Sponge - F*ck Joe Biden


Because their potential rivals are in two flavors, "Weak" and "In their pockets" at the moment.

Posted by: Brother Tim sez Max Headroom for President! at May 31, 2023 11:09 AM (OUMaO)

25 The loss of the Repulse and Prince of Wales was arguably Winston's worst military fuckup ever, even worse than Gallipoli, since that operation had a chance if it had been better led on the ground. Winston sent those two battleships in with NO air support anywhere near - they were sitting ducks that never had a chance. Two warships full of brave men died for nothing.

Posted by: Tom Servo at May 31, 2023 11:09 AM (i9ffA)

26 Glave lobbers.

Posted by: Commissar of Plenty and Lysenko stuff at May 31, 2023 11:10 AM (AGa7D)

27 Shocking essay. I was not aware of any of this. Like was said, China is asshoe. No decent person advocates full engagement with China, as Jamie Dimon did yesterday, only people who hope to personally profit right along side the destruction of the west.

Posted by: Huck Follywood at May 31, 2023 11:10 AM (M9ChT)

28 I-uh-uh,, uh-I, w-w-what.. uhhmmmm,, w-what year is-uh,, is-uh it?

yeah

Posted by: John Fetterman at May 31, 2023 11:11 AM (vwCZJ)

29 To China one white foreign devil is the same as any other - just another clever talking monkey.

Posted by: Tom Servo at May 31, 2023 11:12 AM (i9ffA)

30 As much as the ChiComs despise us, I bet they take a particular relish in messing up the Japanese gravesites.

Posted by: Bulgaroctonus at May 31, 2023 11:12 AM (mw8fy)

31 The other reason is the Red Chinese anti-diplomatic system they call "Wolf Warrior Diplomacy."

-----------

One aspect of which apparently is buying and installing a Shit in Sheep's Clothing as POTUS.

Posted by: ShainS -- Oppression Scientist and Your AI Interpreter at May 31, 2023 11:12 AM (xkC5C)

32 And the Brits will do nothing. China does own those seas. They own them because they say they do, they act like they do, and nobody will contest that ownership besides moaning impotent pleas of "but but but . . . ." That's how ownership works. China understands that. We do not. The future does not belong to us.

Posted by: Elric Blade at May 31, 2023 11:13 AM (iFTx/)

33 30 As much as the ChiComs despise us, I bet they take a particular relish in messing up the Japanese gravesites.
---------------
Mao and his commies did dick in WWII but sit in the hills and have constant struggle sessions. The KMT are the ones that fought the Japs.

Posted by: Puddinhead at May 31, 2023 11:14 AM (fWTJL)

34 Well, they more or less overthrew the US government without firing a shot.

Posted by: Martini Farmer at May 31, 2023 11:03 AM (Q4IgG)

Bought it, apparently.
Posted by: BignJames at May 31, 2023 11:05 AM (AwYPR)

And so cheap! They'd have had to be inhuman to have passed up such a bargain.

It is *so* mortifying that our congress critters sell themselves for such low prices. Not sure if it's because they have no sense of the value of their position, or because an often sold whore has little bargaining power.

Posted by: Polliwog the 'Ette at May 31, 2023 11:14 AM (nC+QA)

35 As much as the ChiComs despise us, I bet they take a particular relish in messing up the Japanese gravesites.
Posted by: Bulgaroctonus at May 31, 2023 11:12 AM (mw8fy)
++++
This is my guess, too. The Chinese hatred of the Japanese cannot be overstated. It is pretty common for Chinese elementary schools to stage plays where brave Chinese children slaughter nasty Japanese aggressor children (their classmates dressed up in Japanese military costume).

That particular hatred runs very, very deep and the CCP maintains it with constant vigilance.

Posted by: Joe Mannix (Not a cop!) at May 31, 2023 11:14 AM (DU+/6)

36
Gimme your lunch money.

Posted by: Hadrian the Seventh at May 31, 2023 11:14 AM (MoZTd)

37 Communists have never recognized any moral bounds but one: "Thou shalt not disagree with The State."

Posted by: Francis W. Porretto at May 31, 2023 11:15 AM (Nmmyc)

38 China hasn't been overthrown in a global effort to eradicate Earth of their communist ass yet, why exactly?

Posted by: Sponge - F*ck Joe Biden at May 31, 2023 11:06 AM (9gDA7)


This.

Posted by: Berserker-Dragonheads Division at May 31, 2023 11:15 AM (VwHCD)

39 For some reason China thinks America was responsible for the Opium Trade. Weird.

Posted by: Puddinhead at May 31, 2023 11:06 AM (fWTJL)

That seems to be their justification for sending all that fentanyl.

Posted by: Polliwog the 'Ette at May 31, 2023 11:16 AM (nC+QA)

40 33 Probably so. But all of those East-Asian peoples hate each other with the heat of a thousand suns anyway.

Posted by: Bulgaroctonus at May 31, 2023 11:16 AM (mw8fy)

41 ... That's how ownership works. China understands that. We do not. The future does not belong to us.
Posted by: Elric Blade at May 31, 2023 11:13 AM (iFTx/)
++++
On the plus side, it doesn't belong to Red China, either. This is not the Chinese Century, nor will it be. It will also not be an American Century. The superpower system is finished, and we will have rival regional powers with a fair amount of conflict at the frontiers.

Posted by: Joe Mannix (Not a cop!) at May 31, 2023 11:16 AM (DU+/6)

42 We could manufacture fentanyl here, and mix it with xylazine. Airdrop it all over China. This method is proven bilaterally in China's relationship with the West. Little yella bastards can't resist the junk. They love the shit maybe even more than us.

We never did the chemical warfare to them, but they learned from the Brits and did it to us. Turnabout is fair play.

Posted by: Yudhishthira's Dice at May 31, 2023 11:16 AM (oINRc)

43
And the Brits will do nothing. China does own those seas. They own them because they say they do, they act like they do, and nobody will contest that ownership besides moaning impotent pleas of "but but but . . . ." That's how ownership works. China understands that. We do not. The future does not belong to us.
Posted by: Elric Blade at May 31, 2023 11:13 AM (iFTx/)

____________

What's left of the Royal Navy is top notch, but it's just a shadow of what it was.

Posted by: Hadrian the Seventh at May 31, 2023 11:16 AM (MoZTd)

44 That particular hatred runs very, very deep and the CCP maintains it with constant vigilance.
Posted by: Joe Mannix (Not a cop!) at May 31, 2023 11:14 AM (DU+/6)

To be fair, the Japanese did a bit to earn that. By the same token, those assholes are dead and gone.

Posted by: Aetius451AD Work Laptop at May 31, 2023 11:16 AM (Vq2Tz)

45 I know nothing about war but it seems to me with the advent of so many types of guided missiles with much more striking force from land, sea and air

a big boat on the surface would be a sitting duck

Posted by: REDACTED at May 31, 2023 11:17 AM (us2H3)

46 It has often been said that the Pearl Harbor raid signaled the end of the battleship reigning supreme in the world's navies superseded by the aircraft carrier. A better event might well be the sinking of the Prince of Wales and the Repulse three days later on December 10, 1941. Unlike the battleships at Pearl Harbor, they knew they were sailing into harm's way and were on a war footing (a war flippering?) yet were still sunk by the lowly airplane.

Posted by: Anonosaurus Wrecks, Is this the real life? Is this just fantasy? at May 31, 2023 11:17 AM (FVME7)

47 This.
Posted by: Berserker-Dragonheads Division at May 31, 2023 11:15 AM (VwHCD)

Berserker, not one but two different commenters have been doing a wellness check on you in recent days.

Do you owe money to someone?

Posted by: Aetius451AD Work Laptop at May 31, 2023 11:17 AM (Vq2Tz)

48 39 Forget fentanyl. They got me addicted to kung pao.

Posted by: Bulgaroctonus at May 31, 2023 11:18 AM (mw8fy)

49
It's difficult to get a handle on the scope of the industrial output from this nation during WW2.

The sheer magnitude is mind boggling.

Posted by: irongrampa at May 31, 2023 11:18 AM (KATBx)

50 Hindsight is 20/20 but abandoning Chiang Kai-Shek as the obvious lesser of the two evils has led to where we are today .

Posted by: polynikes at May 31, 2023 11:19 AM (C1CZ4)

51 48 39 Forget fentanyl. They got me addicted to kung pao.
Posted by: Bulgaroctonus at May 31, 2023 11:18 AM (mw8fy)

Egg Foo Yung.

Posted by: Aetius451AD Work Laptop at May 31, 2023 11:19 AM (Vq2Tz)

52 To be fair, the Japanese did a bit to earn that. By the same token, those assholes are dead and gone.
Posted by: Aetius451AD Work Laptop at May 31, 2023 11:16 AM (Vq2Tz)
++++
Oh yes. The Japanese were unquestionably absolute monsters and the country has never properly apologized for it and doesn't even officially acknowledge much of what it did.

And yes, the people who did those things are all dead now. But it is the kind of thing that breeds multi-generational enmity. It is also true, however, that the CCP openly encourages anti-Japan hatred within Red China. It's a major and persistent arm of their propaganda activity. Much better to keep them hating an external enemy than an internal one. And the Japanese are an easy vehicle for it as Japan was monstrous during the War.

Posted by: Joe Mannix (Not a cop!) at May 31, 2023 11:19 AM (DU+/6)

53 How are we not throwing a public hissy fit? This is exactly the angle that holds currency in that hemisphere. We are foregoing a simple tactical short term advantage and what are we getting for it?

We have Sundowner Joe, the leader of the Kabul Kabuki withdrawal plan. Which was bug out, leave it all behind, leave all of them behind, shift the spending to Ukraine, Profit!!! I gotta trust a guy who calls it a day before elevensies to protect us?

I, for one, welcome anyone who would smack our new overlords in the back of the head. IF you're going to pull the strings, it better be a pretty dance.

Posted by: Bilwis Devourer of Innocent Souls, I'm starvin' over here at May 31, 2023 11:19 AM (z+89e)

54 There was some noise about the steel from these pre-nuclear navy vessels being of a better quality because the steel was not made with "atom bombed" carbon.

Posted by: SMOD at May 31, 2023 11:19 AM (RHGPo)

55 I doubled Biden’s lands. McConnel turned for...much less.

Posted by: Xi Rongshanks at May 31, 2023 11:19 AM (u73oe)

56 This is my guess, too. The Chinese hatred of the Japanese cannot be overstated. It is pretty common for Chinese elementary schools to stage plays where brave Chinese children slaughter nasty Japanese aggressor children (their classmates dressed up in Japanese military costume).

That particular hatred runs very, very deep and the CCP maintains it with constant vigilance.
Posted by: Joe Mannix (Not a cop!) at May 31, 2023 11:14 AM (DU+/6)
---
Would not surprise me if they brought up partial remains of Japanese soldiers from the depths of the ocean just to piss on them.

Posted by: "Perfessor" Squirrel at May 31, 2023 11:20 AM (YIVH2)

57 Hindsight is 20/20 but abandoning Chiang Kai-Shek as the obvious lesser of the two evils has led to where we are today .
Posted by: polynikes at May 31, 2023 11

Owen Lattimore and his palz in Foggy Bottom gave the world that particular gift. The US government has been an enemy of human liberty for a long damned time now.

Posted by: Yudhishthira's Dice at May 31, 2023 11:20 AM (oINRc)

58 You been here 81 years. You go now.

Posted by: CCP at May 31, 2023 11:21 AM (a3Q+t)

59 This is fine, we just need better candidates.

Posted by: Meme dog at May 31, 2023 11:21 AM (sh1GZ)

60 "For some reason China thinks America was responsible for the Opium Trade.
Because we all look alike?

Posted by: gourmand du jour at May 31, 2023 11:21 AM (MeG8a)

61 There was some noise about the steel from these pre-nuclear navy vessels being of a better quality because the steel was not made with "atom bombed" carbon.
Posted by: SMOD at May 31, 2023 11:19 AM (RHGPo)
++++
It depends on what you mean by "quality." In most cases, it doesn't matter whether it's pre-nuke or post-nuke. For some stuff - mainly ultra high-precision scientific equipment - getting pre-nuke steel makes manufacturing much, much easier because it doesn't have to be laboriously (and at enormous expense) refined nearly as much.

Posted by: Joe Mannix (Not a cop!) at May 31, 2023 11:21 AM (DU+/6)

62 50 Hindsight is 20/20 but abandoning Chiang Kai-Shek as the obvious lesser of the two evils has led to where we are today .
Posted by: polynikes at May 31, 2023 11:19 AM (C1CZ4)

Weird US belief that there could be some sort of negotiated peace between the communists and nationalists. Hell the US got Chiang to stop at one point when it looked like the communists were on the ropes.

Posted by: Red Turban Someguy - The Republic is already dead! at May 31, 2023 11:22 AM (eYoxG)

63 Everyone in the region hates the Nips. There isn't a family in Asia that wasn't hurt by them. That kind of bullshit doesn't get forgotten quickly.

Posted by: Yudhishthira's Dice at May 31, 2023 11:22 AM (oINRc)

64 The mutual hatred between China, Japan, and Korea predates WWII.

Posted by: Bulgaroctonus at May 31, 2023 11:22 AM (mw8fy)

65 It's difficult to get a handle on the scope of the industrial output from this nation during WW2.

The sheer magnitude is mind boggling.
Posted by: irongrampa at May 31, 2023 11:18 AM (KATBx)

Absolutely. Frighteningly, because we did it then TPTB think we can do it again when they get us into another war. They're too blind to understand *they* are the ones who stripped us of the ability to produce anything like what will be needed.

Posted by: Polliwog the 'Ette at May 31, 2023 11:22 AM (nC+QA)

66 CCP, like all communist organizations, is worse than amoral. Humans are mere chattel to be used for the benefit of the party, and no strategem is too abhorrent to use against an enemy. That's what the elite want here.

Posted by: jim (in Kalifornia) at May 31, 2023 11:23 AM (ynpvh)

67 Posted by: Red Turban Someguy - The Republic is already dead! at May 31, 2023 11:22 AM (eYoxG)

Only explanation is that we had communists or communist sympathizers making decisions .

Posted by: polynikes at May 31, 2023 11:23 AM (C1CZ4)

68 So steel that’s been marinating in salt water for 80 years is still usable?

Posted by: Bulgaroctonus at May 31, 2023 11:23 AM (mw8fy)

69 64 The mutual hatred between China, Japan, and Korea predates WWII.
--------------
Yep. That is why we were in NE Asia. That and the labor was cheap and high quality.

Posted by: Puddinhead at May 31, 2023 11:24 AM (fWTJL)

70 Posted by: Red Turban Someguy - The Republic is already dead! at May 31, 2023 11:22 AM (eYoxG)

Nah. Our government was just riddled with Communists, and it showed at State's China desk in a big way. They knew there would be no peace. They wanted the Communists to win, and they wanted the tidal wave of blood that ensued when they did.

Posted by: Yudhishthira's Dice at May 31, 2023 11:24 AM (oINRc)

71 Johnny Depp and his band the Hollywood Vampires have postponed their US tour dates due to an injury.
The group, which also includes superstars Alice Cooper, Tommy Henriksen and Aerosmith’s Joe Perry, announced the news via social media on Monday.
“We are sad to share that the Hollywood Vampires will be rescheduling our three US tour dates coming this week,” the post read.
“Johnny has sustained a painful injury to his ankle following his recent appearances and has been advised by his doctor not to travel.”

-
So the tour shit the bed?

Posted by: Anonosaurus Wrecks, Is this the real life? Is this just fantasy? at May 31, 2023 11:24 AM (FVME7)

72 62 50 Hindsight is 20/20 but abandoning Chiang Kai-Shek as the obvious lesser of the two evils has led to where we are today .
Posted by: polynikes at May 31, 2023 11:19 AM (C1CZ4)

Weird US belief that there could be some sort of negotiated peace between the communists and nationalists. Hell the US got Chiang to stop at one point when it looked like the communists were on the ropes.

Posted by: Red Turban Someguy - The Republic is already dead! at May 31, 2023 11:22 AM (eYoxG)

There are some good books out there; Chiang's organization was infiltrated by commies, and the Russians had his son. He couldn't have any more children due to damage done by STDs.

Posted by: jim (in Kalifornia) at May 31, 2023 11:24 AM (ynpvh)

73 Hindsight is 20/20 but abandoning Chiang Kai-Shek as the obvious lesser of the two evils has led to where we are today .
Posted by: polynikes at May 31, 2023 11:19 AM (C1CZ4)
++++
It didn't help that the US State Department - then as now - was run by communists.

But Chiang was also a deeply corrupt and borderline useless commander. He was much more interested in stealing than in fighting, both against the Japanese and later against the communists. We poured the wealth of nations down his throat during the War and had very little to show for it.

Given Chiang's own history and the State Department's open love of communists, there were few if any angles to continue supporting Chiang. Someone less corrupt might have had a better shot, but he was who he was.

Posted by: Joe Mannix (Not a cop!) at May 31, 2023 11:25 AM (DU+/6)

74 Mao and his commies did dick in WWII but sit in the hills and have constant struggle sessions. The KMT are the ones that fought the Japs.

This is true.

It's difficult to get a handle on the scope of the industrial output from this nation during WW2.

The sheer magnitude is mind boggling.


It always astonishes me when people don't grasp that economic and technological might are what wins wars.

Posted by: Archimedes at May 31, 2023 11:25 AM (eOEVl)

75 And the Japanese are an easy vehicle for it as Japan was monstrous during the War.
Posted by: Joe Mannix (Not a cop!) at May 31, 2023 11:19 AM (DU+/6)

You know, I have a problem in general with the generational guilt/original sin thing. How and why SHOULD they apologize? What could possibly be enough? The assholes who did the worst of it are dead and they remade their entire society. Should they engage in public handwringing and struggle sessions for their 'Guilt'? Should they become the slaves of China in order to make up for it? Perhaps send some women to be raped in the Chinese camps which people concentrate in? Join the Uighurs?

I am not so much defending Japan in specific here, but this is the same as trying to make people today PAY for slavery (while ignoring it today in the middle east and china.) It is farcical and performative.

Posted by: Aetius451AD Work Laptop at May 31, 2023 11:25 AM (Vq2Tz)

76 65 It's difficult to get a handle on the scope of the industrial output from this nation during WW2.

I think it was Yamamoto , while traveling extensively in the US, remarked that their was a machine shop in every village of America AKA the sleeping giant

Posted by: REDACTED at May 31, 2023 11:26 AM (us2H3)

77 A debt is owed to one of the crew members aboard Prince of Wales. I hope he survived the sinking. 6 months earlier when the Bismarck was being hunted, one of our Coast Guard cutters on duty in the newly created “Neutrality Patrols” was about to be fired upon by HMS Norfolk. USCG Cutter Modoc had spotted Bismarck not knowing her ID tried radioing her but she wouldn’t break radio silence. Someone aboard the PoW recognized Modoc and prevented what could have been a terrible mistake esp for the Interventionist cause.
No “Remember the Modoc!” Thank God.

Posted by: Rex B at May 31, 2023 11:26 AM (vgY+0)

78 It always astonishes me when people don't grasp that economic and technological might are what wins wars.
Posted by: Archimedes at May 31, 2023 11:25 AM (eOEVl)

*cough*

WILL

Posted by: Aetius451AD Work Laptop at May 31, 2023 11:26 AM (Vq2Tz)

79 75 And the Japanese are an easy vehicle for it as Japan was monstrous during the War.
Posted by: Joe Mannix (Not a cop!) at May 31, 2023 11:19 AM (DU+/6)

You know, I have a problem in general with the generational guilt/original sin thing. How and why SHOULD they apologize? What could possibly be enough? The assholes who did the worst of it are dead and they remade their entire society. Should they engage in public handwringing and struggle sessions for their 'Guilt'? Should they become the slaves of China in order to make up for it? Perhaps send some women to be raped in the Chinese camps which people concentrate in? Join the Uighurs?

I am not so much defending Japan in specific here, but this is the same as trying to make people today PAY for slavery (while ignoring it today in the middle east and china.) It is farcical and performative.

Posted by: Aetius451AD Work Laptop at May 31, 2023 11:25 AM (Vq2Tz)

there are some in Japan that try to whitewash their rancid historical treatment of the Koreans and Chinese. There is no forgetting the horrors inflicted, but for the bulk of Japanese, they are not guilty of the sins of their (great) grandfathers.

Posted by: jim (in Kalifornia) at May 31, 2023 11:27 AM (ynpvh)

80 Given Chiang's own history and the State Department's open love of communists, there were few if any angles to continue supporting Chiang. Someone less corrupt might have had a better shot, but he was who he was.
Posted by: Joe Mannix (Not a cop!) at May 31, 2023 11:25 AM (DU+/6)

He was more or less running a coalition of warlords. The naturally involves an absurd amount of corruption. Still would've been cheaper comparatively to quash the communists then.

Posted by: Red Turban Someguy - The Republic is already dead! at May 31, 2023 11:27 AM (eYoxG)

81 however, those nips make a mean natto temaki

Posted by: REDACTED at May 31, 2023 11:27 AM (us2H3)

82 Biden gets 10% of the proceeds/

Posted by: Montec at May 31, 2023 11:28 AM (OalnH)

83
It's difficult to get a handle on the scope of the industrial output from this nation during WW2.

The sheer magnitude is mind boggling.
Posted by: irongrampa at May 31, 2023 11:18 AM (KATBx)

___________

In 1939, for all intents and purposes we didn't have an army or air force and our navy was based around battleships. We had no defense industry, an out-of-date rail network and little shipping capacity.

The US had to develop everything from the ground up. Moreover, whereas the Germans and Russians had internal lines of supply, we had to get everything from A to B overseas, to Europe in the teeth of a determined U-boat campaign. Still, we sent 22 million tons to the ETO and 18 million tons of Lend-Lease to Russia.

Posted by: Hadrian the Seventh at May 31, 2023 11:28 AM (MoZTd)

84 I’ve read that the Nazis gave a lot of support and training to Chiang’s troops. His son was even serving with the Wehrmacht when it invaded Poland, and then Chiang brought him home because of the optics.

Posted by: Bulgaroctonus at May 31, 2023 11:28 AM (mw8fy)

85 It always astonishes me when people don't grasp that economic and technological might are what wins wars.
Posted by: Archimedes at May 31, 2023 11:25 AM (eOEVl)

*cough*

WILL


Will is certainly important, but will without the means to kill your enemy is a recipe for a slaughter.

Posted by: Archimedes at May 31, 2023 11:28 AM (eOEVl)

86 Absolutely. Frighteningly, because we did it then TPTB think we can do it again when they get us into another war. They're too blind to understand *they* are the ones who stripped us of the ability to produce anything like what will be needed.
Posted by: Polliwog the 'Ette at May 31, 2023 11:22 AM (nC+QA)
++++
We don't have the industrial base to do it anymore. One of the tremendous benefits we had during the War - and a big reason for our industrial victory - was the incalculable value of obsolete equipment. Every factory in the country had some machine or another out back under a greased tarp. All of that shit could be hauled into buildings that we hastily slapped up and retooled to produce war material. It doesn't take all *that* much precision to start turning out rifles and artillery, and obsolete equipment can do it.

We have not only a much smaller industrial sector now, we don't have any of that vast inventory of obsolete machinery. Globalization made it valuable. When it's obsolete, pack it up and sell it off to somewhere in the developing world. We have a smaller, lower-volume, less-generalized base *and* no prior-generation reserves of equipment.

Posted by: Joe Mannix (Not a cop!) at May 31, 2023 11:29 AM (DU+/6)

87
He was more or less running a coalition of warlords. The naturally involves an absurd amount of corruption. Still would've been cheaper comparatively to quash the communists then.
Posted by: Red Turban Someguy - The Republic is already dead! at May 31, 2023 11:27 AM (eYoxG)

____________

Remember the old days when Democrats didn't believe in propping up corrupt, inept, repressive governments?

Posted by: Hadrian the Seventh at May 31, 2023 11:29 AM (MoZTd)

88 On a brighter note . . .

Target's "tuck-friendly" women's swimwear and LGBT kids' clothes have now cost the company over $12 billion

Posted by: Anonosaurus Wrecks, Is this the real life? Is this just fantasy? at May 31, 2023 11:29 AM (FVME7)

89 41 ... That's how ownership works. China understands that. We do not. The future does not belong to us.
Posted by: Elric Blade at May 31, 2023 11:13 AM (iFTx/)
++++
On the plus side, it doesn't belong to Red China, either. This is not the Chinese Century, nor will it be. It will also not be an American Century. The superpower system is finished, and we will have rival regional powers with a fair amount of conflict at the frontiers.
Posted by: Joe Mannix (Not a cop!) at May 31, 2023 11:16 AM (DU+/6)
_____________

On that I have to disagree. While I do agree that for the most part regional powers are the future, that will effect the West and former USSR states the most. China will be the last one standing almost by default. Who is going to stop them? In 20 years the USA military will be a complete joke (by design) and incapable of anything. Yes, I know China has its own problems. But they are nothing compared to our own and the West's. China is the future, even if it amounts to them being the one-eyed man in the land of the blind.

Posted by: Elric Blade at May 31, 2023 11:29 AM (iFTx/)

90 78 It always astonishes me when people don't grasp that economic and technological might are what wins wars.
Posted by: Archimedes at May 31, 2023 11:25 AM (eOEVl)

*cough*

WILL
Posted by: Aetius451AD Work Laptop at May 31, 2023 11:26 AM (Vq2Tz)

It's not uncommon for a technologically and economically inferior country to win.

The big modern example is Nazi Germany vs France. Of course there's also the US in Vietnam or Afghanistan.

Posted by: Red Turban Someguy - The Republic is already dead! at May 31, 2023 11:30 AM (eYoxG)

91 Damn chinese ghouls, they're worse than just lying thieves.

Posted by: Eromero at May 31, 2023 11:30 AM (Uv0D2)

92 There was some noise about the steel from these pre-nuclear navy vessels being of a better quality because the steel was not made with "atom bombed" carbon.

Posted by: SMOD at May 31, 2023 11:19 AM (RHGPo)

--------

Mannix should have included that in the post.

/

Posted by: ShainS -- Oppression Scientist and Your AI Interpreter at May 31, 2023 11:30 AM (CNzjd)

93 ||Deployment
Force G, consisting of the modern battleship Prince of Wales, the First World War era battlecruiser Repulse, and the four destroyers HMS Electra, Express, Encounter and Jupiter, arrived at Singapore on 2 December 1941. They were then re-designated Force Z.

The new aircraft carrier HMS Indomitable was allocated to Force G, but whilst working up off Jamaica, she had run aground in the entrance to Kingston harbour on 3 November 1941.[16] Indomitable required 12 days of dry dock repairs in Norfolk, Virginia, and was not able to take part in the action. Indomitable carried one squadron each of Fairey Fulmars and Hawker Sea Hurricanes. Another aircraft carrier, HMS Hermes (which was with Prince of Wales at Cape Town), was on passage to Singapore to join Force Z, but was not deployed due to lack of speed.[17]||

Decision to send: October 1940 [can't find a date for publicly stating it was to deter prewar Japanese sabre-rattling]; Sunk December 10, 1941.

Posted by: andycanuck (Vwz3I) at May 31, 2023 11:30 AM (Vwz3I)

94 there are some in Japan that try to whitewash their rancid historical treatment of the Koreans and Chinese. There is no forgetting the horrors inflicted, but for the bulk of Japanese, they are not guilty of the sins of their (great) grandfathers.

And now they have the worst of both worlds. They've apologized (sort of) but it's obvious their hearts aren't in it. Therefore, their old enemies continue to hate them. All too often, it's the non-apology apology.

Sure, we did some bad things, but....

Posted by: Archimedes at May 31, 2023 11:30 AM (eOEVl)

95 52
'And the Japanese are an easy vehicle for it as Japan was monstrous during the War.'

I recall reading the account of some young guy from the US that visited China. While he was touring the countryside, some old Chinese guy came up to him and said "Thank you for bombing those monkeys."

Posted by: Dr. Claw at May 31, 2023 11:30 AM (YohY1)

96 It always astonishes me when people don't grasp that economic and technological might are what wins wars.
Posted by: Archimedes at May 31, 2023 11:25 AM (eOEVl

My main reason why it was idiotic to get rid of the F-22 Raptor production. The most advanced fighter in the world by 10 or 20 years. Just think if Britain had F-80s in 1939 , just 6 years before they were in operation. Nazi Germany would not have existed because Britain wouldn't have compromised.

Posted by: polynikes at May 31, 2023 11:30 AM (C1CZ4)

97 84 I’ve read that the Nazis gave a lot of support and training to Chiang’s troops. His son was even serving with the Wehrmacht when it invaded Poland, and then Chiang brought him home because of the optics.
--------------------
Germany was viewed as the model that China wished to copy. Things German and military were adopted quite readily. The Nationals were goose stepping when I was a baby in Taiwan. I used to watch them and mimic them as a kid.

Posted by: Puddinhead at May 31, 2023 11:31 AM (fWTJL)

98 85 It always astonishes me when people don't grasp that economic and technological might are what wins wars.
Posted by: Archimedes at May 31, 2023 11:25 AM (eOEVl)

*cough*

WILL

Will is certainly important, but will without the means to kill your enemy is a recipe for a slaughter.

Posted by: Archimedes at May 31, 2023 11:28 AM (eOEVl)

Think of the muslim Moro rebels in the Philippines in the early 1900s; they had plenty of will (took special drugs, wrapped their extremities in leather to prevent bleeding out, charged their enemies--our--posts). In the end they lost. Yes, more than WILL is needed, but it is an essential ingredient.

Posted by: jim (in Kalifornia) at May 31, 2023 11:31 AM (ynpvh)

99 On a less right note . . .

WATCH: "Aggressive" Chinese fighter jet buzzes U.S. Air Force plane over South China Sea

https://tinyurl.com/yc2peabb

Posted by: Anonosaurus Wrecks, Is this the real life? Is this just fantasy? at May 31, 2023 11:31 AM (FVME7)

100 Mannix should have included that in the post.

/
Posted by: ShainS -- Oppression Scientist and Your AI Interpreter at May 31, 2023 11:30 AM

It's in there

Posted by: It's me donna at May 31, 2023 11:31 AM (bs+z0)

101 88 On a brighter note . . .

Target's "tuck-friendly" women's swimwear and LGBT kids' clothes have now cost the company over $12 billion

Posted by: Anonosaurus Wrecks, Is this the real life? Is this just fantasy? at May 31, 2023 11:29 AM (FVME7)

That's some expensive swimwear...

Posted by: jim (in Kalifornia) at May 31, 2023 11:31 AM (ynpvh)

102 On that I have to disagree. While I do agree that for the most part regional powers are the future, that will effect the West and former USSR states the most. China will be the last one standing almost by default. Who is going to stop them? In 20 years the USA military will be a complete joke (by design) and incapable of anything. Yes, I know China has its own problems. But they are nothing compared to our own and the West's. China is the future, even if it amounts to them being the one-eyed man in the land of the blind.
Posted by: Elric Blade at May 31, 2023 11:29 AM (iFTx/)

Well the US basically became a superpower because all the other great powers collapsed/declined from the world wars.

However, it was also a relatively strong great power at the time. China is barely a great power by historical metrics of empire. I doubt they truly become a superpower, though they very well could be the #1 power for a while.

Posted by: Red Turban Someguy - The Republic is already dead! at May 31, 2023 11:32 AM (eYoxG)

103 We have not only a much smaller industrial sector now, we don't have any of that vast inventory of obsolete machinery. Globalization made it valuable. When it's obsolete, pack it up and sell it off to somewhere in the developing world. We have a smaller, lower-volume, less-generalized base *and* no prior-generation reserves of equipment.

Even more importantly, we lack a trained work force to turn out vast quantities of materiel.

Posted by: Archimedes at May 31, 2023 11:32 AM (eOEVl)

104 there were few if any angles to continue supporting Chiang. Someone less corrupt might have had a better shot, but he was who he was.
Posted by: Joe Mannix (Not a cop!) at May 31, 2023 11:25 AM (DU+/6)

Don't care. Communism was and is the enemy. You support whoever kills them. You don't defund the Guomindang. You don't assassinate Diem. You don't ever - under any circumstances - kill or jail a puppet who hasn't openly betrayed you to the enemy. You pay your puppets on time for every day they keep killing commies for you, unless someone else can and will kill more for cheaper.

This isn't rocket science. Our government didn't "make mistakes." It was just riddled with traitors.

Posted by: Yudhishthira's Dice at May 31, 2023 11:32 AM (oINRc)

105 Bribery and blackmail are politics by other means.

Posted by: SFGoth at May 31, 2023 11:33 AM (KAi1n)

106 Ana Puma needs to be a part of this discussion.

Posted by: Bulgaroctonus at May 31, 2023 11:33 AM (mw8fy)

107
Even more importantly, we lack a trained work force to turn out vast quantities of materiel.
Posted by: Archimedes at May 31, 2023 11:32 AM (eOEVl)

________

Worse, we lack a trainable work force.

Posted by: Hadrian the Seventh at May 31, 2023 11:33 AM (MoZTd)

108 Our weakness within is a greater threat than any external enemy. Most of a generation without love of freedom or country, and too soft to defend them if they were so inclined.

I was never tested to do so myself. So one could say "easy for you to say." But I believe most of my peers who grew up in the last century would have been ready and able to do so. I think that my own boys are somewhat, but not completely exceptions to the generational shift, which is a hard thing for me to see.

Posted by: Zek at May 31, 2023 11:33 AM (5FPX4)

109 The big modern example is Nazi Germany vs France. Of course there's also the US in Vietnam or Afghanistan.

Nazi Germany wasn't defeated by France, it was defeated by us and by the USSR equipped by us. France was a bystander.

As to Vietnam, that was politically-inspired loss. You could call it will, but I think it's more accurate to call it treason.

Posted by: Archimedes at May 31, 2023 11:34 AM (eOEVl)

110 I am surprised that the English Caliphate gives a crap.

They are too busy raping their utes with rape gangs, arresting people for silently praying outside abortion abattoirs and killing their own people with their NHS.

Churchill Weeps.

Posted by: Hairyback Guy at May 31, 2023 11:34 AM (7tCXb)

111 On that I have to disagree. While I do agree that for the most part regional powers are the future, that will effect the West and former USSR states the most. China will be the last one standing almost by default. Who is going to stop them? In 20 years the USA military will be a complete joke (by design) and incapable of anything. Yes, I know China has its own problems. But they are nothing compared to our own and the West's. China is the future, even if it amounts to them being the one-eyed man in the land of the blind.
Posted by: Elric Blade at May 31, 2023 11:29 AM (iFTx/)
++++
China will stop itself. It's already running out of steam. The economy is on a precipice, the debts are unmanageable, belt-and-road is failing, the industrial sector is declining, the demographics are a disaster, the internal markets are the same shambles they've always been, their military isn't particularly effective (at least not at the moment), etc. China has enormous structural problems and I don't think they can do it. They might be the last one standing (even that would surprise me), but it doesn't mean that they will *keep* standing.

Posted by: Joe Mannix (Not a cop!) at May 31, 2023 11:34 AM (DU+/6)

112 >>> 104 there were few if any angles to continue supporting Chiang. Someone less corrupt might have had a better shot, but he was who he was.
Posted by: Joe Mannix (Not a cop!) at May 31, 2023 11:25 AM (DU+/6)

Don't care. Communism was and is the enemy. You support whoever kills them. You don't defund the Guomindang. You don't assassinate Diem. You don't ever - under any circumstances - kill or jail a puppet who hasn't openly betrayed you to the enemy. You pay your puppets on time for every day they keep killing commies for you, unless someone else can and will kill more for cheaper.

This isn't rocket science. Our government didn't "make mistakes." It was just riddled with traitors.
Posted by: Yudhishthira's Dice at May 31, 2023 11:32 AM (oINRc)

You don't say.

Posted by: Diana West, author of American Betrayal at May 31, 2023 11:34 AM (llON8)

113 Posted by: Red Turban Someguy - The Republic is already dead! at May 31, 2023 11:30 AM (eYoxG)

Politics not war fighting capability. In France's case it was a political decision not to extend the Maginot line on Belgiums border. Also their weapons sucked.

Posted by: polynikes at May 31, 2023 11:35 AM (C1CZ4)

114 Speaking of the Royals:

“UK Royal Air Force recruiters were advised against selecting "useless white male pilots" to hit diversity targets”

Posted by: The Unmasked and Unvaxxed Ranger at May 31, 2023 11:35 AM (VTu1l)

115 49
'the scope of the industrial output from this nation during WW2.'

Almost as astounding to me is the organizational and logistical feats. Transporting, housing and maintaining men and equipment 1000s of miles away.

Posted by: Dr. Claw at May 31, 2023 11:35 AM (YohY1)

116 97 Puddin, that’s very interesting.

Posted by: Bulgaroctonus at May 31, 2023 11:35 AM (mw8fy)

117 90 78 It always astonishes me when people don't grasp that economic and technological might are what wins wars.
Posted by: Archimedes at May 31, 2023 11:25 AM (eOEVl)

*cough*

WILL
Posted by: Aetius451AD Work Laptop at May 31, 2023 11:26 AM (Vq2Tz)

It's not uncommon for a technologically and economically inferior country to win.

The big modern example is Nazi Germany vs France. Of course there's also the US in Vietnam or Afghanistan.

Posted by: Red Turban Someguy - The Republic is already dead! at May 31, 2023 11:30 AM (eYoxG)

Vietnam: we were more done in by our own communists in Congress. Without supplies, the North Vietnamese would have lost, and we had the means to choke them to death.
France: France had depended on outdated defenses which the Nazis circumvented (literally).
Afghanistan: 1) We supplied help against the Soviets
2) US should give up on trying to change people and governments when it comes to war.

Posted by: jim (in Kalifornia) at May 31, 2023 11:36 AM (ynpvh)

118 Well the US basically became a superpower because all the other great powers collapsed/declined from the world wars.
---------------
Its always best to be the last to join a world war.

Posted by: Puddinhead at May 31, 2023 11:36 AM (DmtxH)

119 Don't care. Communism was and is the enemy. You support whoever kills them. You don't defund the Guomindang. You don't assassinate Diem. You don't ever - under any circumstances - kill or jail a puppet who hasn't openly betrayed you to the enemy. You pay your puppets on time for every day they keep killing commies for you, unless someone else can and will kill more for cheaper.

This isn't rocket science. Our government didn't "make mistakes." It was just riddled with traitors.
Posted by: Yudhishthira's Dice at May 31, 2023 11:32 AM (oINRc)
++++
I don't disagree. My point was that between State's pro-communist behavior and Chiang being so corrupt that he lost many of his supporters was a bad combination in terms of this country continuing to support him. A less-corrupt Chiang *or* a non-communist State Department would have likely resulted in a different output, but we got both.

Posted by: Joe Mannix (Not a cop!) at May 31, 2023 11:36 AM (DU+/6)

120 Just think if Britain had F-80s in 1939 , just 6 years before they were in operation. Nazi Germany would not have existed because Britain wouldn't have compromised.
Posted by: polynikes

B-29s and Mustangs in 1940 would've put the kibosh on Case Yellow. Long lines of tanks streaming towards the coast? Take out their air cover and then bombs away.

Posted by: SFGoth at May 31, 2023 11:36 AM (KAi1n)

121 109 "The big modern example is Nazi Germany vs France. Of course there's also the US in Vietnam or Afghanistan."

Nazi Germany wasn't defeated by France, it was defeated by us and by the USSR equipped by us. France was a bystander.

As to Vietnam, that was politically-inspired loss. You could call it will, but I think it's more accurate to call it treason.
Posted by: Archimedes at May 31, 2023 11:34 AM (eOEVl)

Nazi Germany defeated France, who was technologically and militarily superior.

Posted by: Red Turban Someguy - The Republic is already dead! at May 31, 2023 11:37 AM (eYoxG)

122 Sigh

The Blood has run thin in the West

My advise: Learn Chinese

Posted by: Nevergiveup at May 31, 2023 11:37 AM (pmmLi)

123 took special drugs
------------------
Called "the White"??

And the Moros were skinny little f#cks, showing that where there's a will, there's a weigh is also wrong!

Posted by: andycanuck (Vwz3I) at May 31, 2023 11:37 AM (Vwz3I)

124 57
'Owen Lattimore and his palz in Foggy Bottom gave the world that particular gift.'

Chiang Kai Shek and his crew gave that gift with their incompetence.

Posted by: Dr. Claw at May 31, 2023 11:38 AM (YohY1)

125 "France was a bystander."

France was a place Germany had to park a lot of men and materiale that would've been used in the east.

Posted by: SFGoth at May 31, 2023 11:38 AM (KAi1n)

126 Regarding Target's satanic swimwear and other clothing;

People are grabbing shopping carts full of the stuff, going to checkout. Tabs run as high as $1K for the stuff.

Then they claim to have left their wallet in the car and just leave.

The point being the store then has to go through the motions of restocking the stuff and reconciling inventory since it wasn't actually "sold."

Likely degrading the already dismal earnings.

Posted by: Martini Farmer at May 31, 2023 11:38 AM (Q4IgG)

127 Just think if Britain had F-80s in 1939 , just 6 years before they were in operation. Nazi Germany would not have existed because Britain wouldn't have compromised.
Posted by: polynikes

B-29s and Mustangs in 1940 would've put the kibosh on Case Yellow. Long lines of tanks streaming towards the coast? Take out their air cover and then bombs away.


I think of this whenever I see the opening sequence in Saving Private Ryan. One modern jet armed with GPS-guided bunker busters would have eliminated the Nazi gun emplacements on the beach at Normandy. We could have strolled ashore.

Posted by: Archimedes at May 31, 2023 11:38 AM (eOEVl)

128 This is fine, I'mma have some bat soup.

Posted by: Meme dog at May 31, 2023 11:39 AM (sh1GZ)

129 there were few if any angles to continue supporting Chiang. Someone less corrupt might have had a better shot, but he was who he was.
Posted by: Joe Mannix (Not a cop!) at May 31, 2023 11:25 AM (DU+/6)

The obvious far lesser of two evils. We knew what communism would bring and it did rather quickly. We would have avoided both Korea and Vietnam.

Posted by: polynikes at May 31, 2023 11:39 AM (C1CZ4)

130 >>> 122 Sigh

The Blood has run thin in the West

My advise: Learn Chinese
Posted by: Nevergiveup at May 31, 2023 11:37 AM (pmmLi)

Glenn Reynolds has been on for years about the massive decline of testosterone levels in the West after WWII. Knowing what we know now about feralgov, it seems... awfully convenient.

Posted by: Helena Handbasket at May 31, 2023 11:39 AM (llON8)

131 China hasn't been overthrown in a global effort to eradicate Earth of their communist ass yet, why exactly?

Posted by: Sponge - F*ck Joe Biden
--

(checks 1963 Congressional Record with stated communist goals for conquering United States)

Ah yes, there we are. Numbers 4 and 7

"4. Permit free trade between all nations regardless of Communist affiliation and regardless of whether or not items could be used for war.


7. Grant recognition of Red China. Admission of Red China to the U.N."

Posted by: You had your day for dead soldiers, now here's a month for men who are sexually aroused by feces at May 31, 2023 11:39 AM (5/7b/)

132 On a brighter note . . .

Target's "tuck-friendly" women's swimwear and LGBT kids' clothes have now cost the company over $12 billion

Posted by: Anonosaurus Wrecks, Is this the real life? Is this just fantasy? at May 31, 2023 11:29 AM (FVME7)

--------

Maybe McCarthy can negotiate a federal bailout for them, Disney, AB Bev, and others as part of the "debt ceiling floor negotiations.

/

Posted by: ShainS -- Oppression Scientist and Your AI Interpreter at May 31, 2023 11:39 AM (oK3pW)

133 France: France had depended on outdated defenses which the Nazis circumvented (literally).
Afghanistan: 1) We supplied help against the Soviets
2) US should give up on trying to change people and governments when it comes to war.
Posted by: jim (in Kalifornia) at May 31, 2023 11:36 AM (ynpvh)

The French army was more modern and larger than the German one.

Having fortifications circumvented is a strategic failure, but illustrates the importance of other factors besides simply how much war material a country has and how advanced it is.

Posted by: Red Turban Someguy - The Republic is already dead! at May 31, 2023 11:39 AM (eYoxG)

134 KJP claims Joe Biden has always said he’ll negotiate with Republicans
-
Now she tells us.

Posted by: Anonosaurus Wrecks, Is this the real life? Is this just fantasy? at May 31, 2023 11:39 AM (FVME7)

135
Almost as astounding to me is the organizational and logistical feats. Transporting, housing and maintaining men and equipment 1000s of miles away.
Posted by: Dr. Claw at May 31, 2023 11:35 AM (YohY1)

___________

Gen. Kohler: What is it?
Col. Hessler: A chocolate cake.
Gen. Kohler: Well?
Col. Martin Hessler: It was taken from a captured American private. It's still fresh. If you will look at the wrapping, general, you will see it comes from Boston.
Gen. Kohler: And?
Col. Martin Hessler: General, do you realize what this means? It means that the Americans have fuel and planes to fly cake across the Atlantic Ocean. They have no conception of defeat.

Posted by: Hadrian the Seventh at May 31, 2023 11:40 AM (MoZTd)

136 The Blood has run thin in the West

My advise: Learn Chinese




You think the Chinese want this shithole?

They've got enough problems of their own without taking the American left into their fold.

Posted by: Bitter Clinger at May 31, 2023 11:40 AM (Zqeqr)

137
Joe Mannix it the cob for this thread? I guess we're not going to get:

This buxom blond is unworried about the radioactive content of steel buried deep underwater:
http://etcetcetc

Posted by: Divide by Zero at May 31, 2023 11:40 AM (enJYY)

138 Nazi Germany's over the road supply lines were primarily pulled by horses also. It limited their movement.

Posted by: Wierzbowski formerly QID at May 31, 2023 11:40 AM (OgrpQ)

139 Regarding Target's satanic swimwear and other clothing;

People are grabbing shopping carts full of the stuff, going to checkout. Tabs run as high as $1K for the stuff.

--

This is the way.

Posted by: You had your day for dead soldiers, now here's a month for men who are sexually aroused by feces at May 31, 2023 11:40 AM (5/7b/)

140 But Chiang was also a deeply corrupt and borderline useless commander. He was much more interested in stealing than in fighting, both against the Japanese and later against the communists. We poured the wealth of nations down his throat during the War and had very little to show for it.

Posted by: Joe Mannix (Not a cop!) at May 31, 2023 11:25 AM (DU+/6)

By golly, we sure learned our lesson there. We won't do that again!

Posted by: OrangeEnt at May 31, 2023 11:40 AM (Angsy)

141 We have not only a much smaller industrial sector now, we don't have any of that vast inventory of obsolete machinery. Globalization made it valuable. When it's obsolete, pack it up and sell it off to somewhere in the developing world. We have a smaller, lower-volume, less-generalized base *and* no prior-generation reserves of equipment.
Posted by: Joe Mannix (Not a cop!) at May 31, 2023 11:29 AM (DU+/6)
***

We also don't have the people to run those machines, even if we did have them laying around somewhere.
Ft Lewis (now Joint Base Lewis-McChord) used to have their own Skunk Works. I got a tour of it in the early 80's. You could literally rebuild a tank or howitzer in there. Huge forges, benders, welders...incredible stuff. I was back there 10 years later for a meeting and asked about it. All gone. Everyone retired and they junked the equipment because they needed the floor space for inventory of other crap.
A true loss of capability.

Posted by: Diogenes at May 31, 2023 11:40 AM (e4fEA)

142 75
'I am not so much defending Japan in specific here, but this is the same as trying to make people today PAY for slavery'

I agree.

Posted by: Dr. Claw at May 31, 2023 11:40 AM (YohY1)

143 The obvious far lesser of two evils. We knew what communism would bring and it did rather quickly. We would have avoided both Korea and Vietnam.
Posted by: polynikes at May 31, 2023 11:39 AM (C1CZ4)
++++
Which the State Department did not want. The State Department was then - like it is now - full of communists. They wanted a communist victory in China, and were thrilled with declining support for Chiang.

Posted by: Joe Mannix (Not a cop!) at May 31, 2023 11:40 AM (DU+/6)

144 Its always best to be the last to join a world war.
Posted by: Puddinhead

Or, if you're Italy, not at all.

Posted by: SFGoth at May 31, 2023 11:40 AM (KAi1n)

145 see if this will fit in the name field

Posted by: You had your day for dead GIs, now here's a month to celebrate men who are sexually aroused by feces at May 31, 2023 11:41 AM (5/7b/)

146 A less-corrupt Chiang *or* a non-communist State Department would have likely resulted in a different output, but we got both.
Posted by: Joe Mannix (Not a cop!) at May 31, 2023 11:36 AM (DU+/6)

Given the structure of the nationalist "government", I don't think a less corrupt set up was really possible. Whoever was at the top would have to both compete against and bribe all the other warlords.

Posted by: Red Turban Someguy - The Republic is already dead! at May 31, 2023 11:41 AM (eYoxG)

147 Mmm. Chocolate cake.

Posted by: andycanuck (Vwz3I) at May 31, 2023 11:42 AM (Vwz3I)

148 Posted by: Joe Mannix (Not a cop!) at May 31, 2023 11:36 AM (DU+/6)

Yes a communist sympathetic State Department was the problem.

Posted by: polynikes at May 31, 2023 11:42 AM (C1CZ4)

149 The main problem not the only problem.

Posted by: polynikes at May 31, 2023 11:43 AM (C1CZ4)

150 One modern jet armed with GPS-guided bunker busters would have eliminated the Nazi gun emplacements on the beach at Normandy. We could have strolled ashore.
Posted by: Archimedes at May 31, 2023 11:38 AM (eOEVl)

If only their were a few Corsairs capable of dropping napalm available. I think it was first used in Saipan, which was nearly the same time period. But the Corsairs were almost exclusive to the Pacific.

Posted by: Rex B at May 31, 2023 11:43 AM (vgY+0)

151 I agree that the generational guilt thing goes too far. I don't want or need Japan to apologize for anything, and they better not ask us to apologize for nuking their pasty little nip asses.. twice.

Posted by: Tom Servo at May 31, 2023 11:44 AM (i9ffA)

152 139 Regarding Target's satanic swimwear and other clothing;

People are grabbing shopping carts full of the stuff, going to checkout. Tabs run as high as $1K for the stuff.

--

This is the way.

Posted by: You had your day for dead soldiers, now here's a month for men who are sexually aroused by feces at May 31, 2023 11:40 AM (5/7b/)

Just under $1K in Kali, done by gangs that use minors. That way, it's at most a misdemeanor that Soros prosecutors won't prosecute and the kids won't have permanent marks on their records.

Posted by: jim (in Kalifornia) at May 31, 2023 11:44 AM (ynpvh)

153 Col. Martin Hessler: General, do you realize what this means? It means that the Americans have fuel and planes to fly cake across the Atlantic Ocean. They have no conception of defeat.
Posted by: Hadrian the Seventh at May 31, 2023 11:40 AM (MoZTd)
++++
There is an anecdote like that from the Philippine campaign in the Pacific War. It come, IIRC, from a Japanese soldier's war diary. He was going through an area through which the US Army had passed and he found a foil gum wrapper dropped on the ground from whatever GI had unwrapped it.

He was shocked and despondent because of it. It showed that the US so rich and had so many resources that not only did American GIs get treats like chewing gum, America could squander a precious commodity - metal - on something so trivial as a gum wrapper.

Posted by: Joe Mannix (Not a cop!) at May 31, 2023 11:44 AM (DU+/6)

154 What YD said @ 112- killing commies is always proper.

Posted by: Eromero at May 31, 2023 11:44 AM (Uv0D2)

155 Posted by: Joe Mannix (Not a cop!) at May 31, 2023 11:40 AM (DU+/6)

I think we are in agreement on the general point.

Posted by: polynikes at May 31, 2023 11:44 AM (C1CZ4)

156 All wars are run for profit.

Posted by: People's Hippo Voice at May 31, 2023 11:45 AM (mt8I3)

157 Given the structure of the nationalist "government", I don't think a less corrupt set up was really possible. Whoever was at the top would have to both compete against and bribe all the other warlords.
Posted by: Red Turban Someguy - The Republic is already dead! at May 31, 2023 11:41 AM (eYoxG)
++++
Yup, probably.

Posted by: Joe Mannix (Not a cop!) at May 31, 2023 11:45 AM (DU+/6)

158 Just under $1K in Kali, done by gangs that use minors. That way, it's at most a misdemeanor that Soros prosecutors won't prosecute and the kids won't have permanent marks on their records.

Posted by: jim (in Kalifornia

--

That's the key. No one is stealing. They're going to the checkout and then either can't afford it or leaving because they "left their wallet in the car."

It's brilliant, and active resistance vs. a simple boycott. I love it.

Posted by: You had your day for dead GIs, now here's a month to celebrate men who are sexually aroused by feces at May 31, 2023 11:45 AM (5/7b/)

159 If we had a real President, the only place the Chinese language would be spoken is in Hell.

Posted by: NR Pax at May 31, 2023 11:45 AM (4olE8)

160 The idea of asking someone who defeated you to apologize for defeating you is grotesque.

Posted by: Warai-otoko at May 31, 2023 11:45 AM (9UlRk)

161 142 75
'I am not so much defending Japan in specific here, but this is the same as trying to make people today PAY for slavery'

I agree.

Posted by: Dr. Claw at May 31, 2023 11:40 AM (YohY1)

And in a way they did pay; they were defeated, had cities burned to the ground and two of them turned into nuclear ash-heaps. They were put under our control after their surrender. I guess some in China and Korea would have preferred genocide and extinction for the japanese.

Posted by: jim (in Kalifornia) at May 31, 2023 11:46 AM (ynpvh)

162 Or, if you're Italy, not at all.
---------------
Italy was in combat before the Germans. They were rebuilding the Roman Empire in East Africa and Libya.

Posted by: Puddinhead at May 31, 2023 11:46 AM (fWTJL)

163 143 The obvious far lesser of two evils. We knew what communism would bring and it did rather quickly. We would have avoided both Korea and Vietnam.
Posted by: polynikes at May 31, 2023 11:39 AM (C1CZ4)
++++
Which the State Department did not want. The State Department was then - like it is now - full of communists. They wanted a communist victory in China, and were thrilled with declining support for Chiang.

Posted by: Joe Mannix (Not a cop!) at May 31, 2023 11:40 AM (DU+/6)

And still is full of commies. Their infiltration has gone to the highest levels.

Posted by: jim (in Kalifornia) at May 31, 2023 11:47 AM (ynpvh)

164 Politics not war fighting capability. In France's case it was a political decision not to extend the Maginot line on Belgiums border. Also their weapons sucked.
Posted by: polynikes at May 31, 2023 11:35 AM (C1CZ4)

I am betting that if they had extended the fortifications along their full eastern border, there would have been a lot more pushback from the German High Command on invading. Just a guess and we will probably never know. Defending a static line is easier than trying to react to an enemy that is trying to surround and cut off your forces. It does not help when you have a crap ton of conscripts. Clovis wept.

Posted by: Aetius451AD Work Laptop at May 31, 2023 11:47 AM (Vq2Tz)

165 It's brilliant, and active resistance vs. a simple boycott. I love it.


I could also see taking armloads of it to the changing room, take it off the hangers and then just leaving it in the pile for them to restock.

Posted by: Bitter Clinger at May 31, 2023 11:47 AM (Zqeqr)

166 Bulge cake scene:

www.youtube.com/watch?v=owbCW5jBQZc

Posted by: SFGoth at May 31, 2023 11:47 AM (KAi1n)

167 And in a way they did pay; they were defeated, had cities burned to the ground and two of them turned into nuclear ash-heaps. They were put under our control after their surrender. I guess some in China and Korea would have preferred genocide and extinction for the japanese.
------------
The Japs had a modern civilization. China nor Korea did.

Posted by: Puddinhead at May 31, 2023 11:47 AM (fWTJL)

168 Nice dredging ship you got there. Be a shame if anything happened to it.
Posted by: Diogenes at May 31, 2023 11:05 AM


Model press release: "WWII explosives are still explosive after 78 years being underwater? Who would ever have guessed that? Maybe you shouldn't dredge them or it might happen again"

Posted by: Chuck C at May 31, 2023 11:48 AM (xttsV)

169 The Maginot line did exactly what it was supposed to do, it was the French field army that shit the bed.

Posted by: The guy that moves pianos for a living at May 31, 2023 11:48 AM (7gEpo)

170
took special drugs
------------------
Called "the White"??


Those Moros and their Ketracel.

Posted by: Bertram Cabot, Jr. at May 31, 2023 11:48 AM (63Dwl)

171 I could also see taking armloads of it to the changing room, take it off the hangers and then just leaving it in the pile for them to restock.

--

Yep. I don't know anything about the checkout process, but I wouldn't be surprised if there wasn't something getting screwy in their accounting, too.

Posted by: You had your day for dead GIs, now here's a month to celebrate men who are sexually aroused by feces at May 31, 2023 11:48 AM (5/7b/)

172 132 Maybe McCarthy can negotiate a federal bailout for them, Disney, AB Bev, and others as part of the "debt ceiling floor negotiations.

too big bulged to fail?

Posted by: anachronda at May 31, 2023 11:48 AM (v3pYe)

173
I think a good way to shop Target is to buy all your perishables first, like milk, eggs, butter, ice cream, cheese, then fill your cart to overflowing and slowly make room for the new stuff by dropping the perishables into the 'Pride' aisle.

It ain't shoplifting but it sure will hurt their bottom line.

Target becomes Tragic.

Posted by: Divide by Zero at May 31, 2023 11:49 AM (enJYY)

174 We need to set up a horde multiplayer game of Hearts of Iron III.

Posted by: Aetius451AD Work Laptop at May 31, 2023 11:49 AM (Vq2Tz)

175 This bikini blonde had no idea that prewar steel was so desirable:
https://is.gd/T3XM8o

Posted by: Joe Mannix (Not a cop!) at May 31, 2023 11:49 AM (DU+/6)

176 162 Or, if you're Italy, not at all.
---------------
Italy was in combat before the Germans. They were rebuilding the Roman Empire in East Africa and Libya.

Posted by: Puddinhead at May 31, 2023 11:46 AM (fWTJL)

King Selassie sure showed them a thing or two.

Posted by: jim (in Kalifornia) at May 31, 2023 11:49 AM (ynpvh)

177 Okay.. This is totally off topic, but what's the story about Tara Reed (sp) seeking asylum in Russia... ?

Posted by: It's me donna at May 31, 2023 11:49 AM (bs+z0)

178 Had D-Day gone according to plan, it likely would have been a massive defeat for the Allies.

Posted by: People's Hippo Voice at May 31, 2023 11:49 AM (mt8I3)

179 Just when you think America can't be more degraded...you're proven wrong.

https://tinyurl.com/42udea7r

Posted by: Huck Follywood at May 31, 2023 11:49 AM (M9ChT)

180 167 And in a way they did pay; they were defeated, had cities burned to the ground and two of them turned into nuclear ash-heaps. They were put under our control after their surrender. I guess some in China and Korea would have preferred genocide and extinction for the japanese.
------------
The Japs had a modern civilization. China nor Korea did.
Posted by: Puddinhead at May 31, 2023 11:47 AM (fWTJL)

But should the colonial powers(and our own Perry) be praised or condemned for it?

Posted by: Red Turban Someguy - The Republic is already dead! at May 31, 2023 11:50 AM (eYoxG)

181 One of the biggest mistakes we make is to assume that the thought process the Chinese use is the same as ours. It isn't.

In my dealings in East Asia and in the Middle East/Central Asia I have learned, sometimes painfully, that our thought process of logic, cause/effect, linear thinking is not applicable in those cultures. We think "If A, then B," and assume that they get it. They don't. The East Asian cultures think in terms of centuries and are primarily loyal to family, not country or ideology. The Chinese are playing the Long Game. How we beat them is by undermining them from within, while opposing them from without.

Posted by: Caesar North of the Rubicon at May 31, 2023 11:50 AM (cLB+r)

182 I saw the remake of Red Dawn earlier this week. The original bad guys were supposed to be the Chinese. The plot was that the USA defaulted on its debt to China, and China invaded to "repossess" its assets. But even 10 years ago, we were subservient to the Chinese, and once they complained about their portrayal in the film, we edited it in post to change the bad guys to North Korea.

The USA and the West are so dependent upon and subservient to China there's probably nothing they can do that will cause us to seriously oppose they. Serious question: what would they have to do to provoke us in any serious way? I think they could invade Taiwan and we would just send some strongly-worded letters.

Posted by: Elric Blade at May 31, 2023 11:50 AM (iFTx/)

183 177 Okay.. This is totally off topic, but what's the story about Tara Reed (sp) seeking asylum in Russia... ?
Posted by: It's me donna at May 31, 2023 11:49 AM (bs+z0)

Not that uncommon for people seeking asylum from the US to go to Russia.

Posted by: Red Turban Someguy - The Republic is already dead! at May 31, 2023 11:50 AM (eYoxG)

184 Okay.. This is totally off topic, but what's the story about Tara Reed (sp) seeking asylum in Russia... ?
Posted by: It's me donna at May 31, 2023 11:49 AM (bs+z0)
++++
As far as I know, that's the story. Reade (sp?) claims that she isn't safe in America because she's an official Party enemy and has sought asylum in Russia.

Posted by: Joe Mannix (Not a cop!) at May 31, 2023 11:51 AM (DU+/6)

185 As far as I know, that's the story. Reade (sp?) claims that she isn't safe in America because she's an official Party enemy and has sought asylum in Russia.
Posted by: Joe Mannix (Not a cop!) at May 31, 2023 11:51 AM (DU+/6)

Wonder what threats she got ?

Posted by: It's me donna at May 31, 2023 11:51 AM (bs+z0)

186 Posted by: Caesar North of the Rubicon at May 31, 2023 11:50 AM (cLB+r)

I think that was the strategy of introducing our way of capitalism . It seemed to have only enriched the communist party .

Posted by: polynikes at May 31, 2023 11:51 AM (C1CZ4)

187 As far as I know, that's the story. Reade (sp?) claims that she isn't safe in America because she's an official Party enemy and has sought asylum in Russia.
Posted by: Joe Mannix (Not a cop!) at May 31, 2023 11:51 AM (DU+/6)

They'll probably whack her in Russia now just to prove the point.

Posted by: Warai-otoko at May 31, 2023 11:52 AM (9UlRk)

188 “UK Royal Air Force recruiters were advised against selecting "useless white male pilots" to hit diversity targets”

What could possibly go wrong?

Posted by: Notorious BFD at May 31, 2023 11:52 AM (Xrfse)

189 "Model press release"

At first I read that in reference to General Model. LOL

Posted by: SFGoth at May 31, 2023 11:52 AM (KAi1n)

190 ... I think they could invade Taiwan and we would just send some strongly-worded letters.
Posted by: Elric Blade at May 31, 2023 11:50 AM (iFTx/)
++++
That is probably the biggest open question at this particular moment.

Our China policy is pretty chaotic, but it is increasingly *not* pro-China, even under Beijing Biden (however much influence he actually has).

Posted by: Joe Mannix (Not a cop!) at May 31, 2023 11:52 AM (DU+/6)

191 Is that a Bulge cake in your pocket or are you just happy to see me?

Posted by: andycanuck (Vwz3I) at May 31, 2023 11:53 AM (Vwz3I)

192 In my dealings in East Asia and in the Middle East/Central Asia I have learned, sometimes painfully, that our thought process of logic, cause/effect, linear thinking is not applicable in those cultures. We think "If A, then B," and assume that they get it. They don't. The East Asian cultures think in terms of centuries and are primarily loyal to family, not country or ideology. The Chinese are playing the Long Game. How we beat them is by undermining them from within, while opposing them from without.
Posted by: Caesar North of the Rubicon at May 31, 2023 11:50 AM (cLB+r)

Aristotelian thought. There's a lot of ancient philosophy specific to the west baked in how we think(even the evil twisted version that makes up the Left). Asia is so alien by comparison that it is incomprehensible to most people here.

Posted by: Red Turban Someguy - The Republic is already dead! at May 31, 2023 11:53 AM (eYoxG)

193 Ha, stopped in a convenience store. The beer cave was packed to the gills with Pud Light and Pud.
$15 rebates offered, cases are $18.

Posted by: Deplorable Ian Galt at May 31, 2023 11:53 AM (BqlcT)

194 You need moral clarity, moral courage, an indefatigable force of political will, and the flexibility to forgo your moral principles in order to save them if you want to run a fucking superpower anywhere except into the dirt.

America lacked all of those in '48, and things haven't gotten better.

I'm with JM, in that I don't see a Chinese Century coming. But they, or anyone, is a better bet than the US. Don't bet on the Washington Generals.

Posted by: Yudhishthira's Dice at May 31, 2023 11:53 AM (oINRc)

195 Weakness invites aggression, the U.K. is so very, very weak. Some flunky will make angry mouth-noises at the U.N. and that will be the end of it.

Posted by: No Shirt Shylock at May 31, 2023 11:54 AM (PWI4f)

196 168 Nice dredging ship you got there. Be a shame if anything happened to it.
Posted by: Diogenes at May 31, 2023 11:05 AM

Model press release: "WWII explosives are still explosive after 78 years being underwater? Who would ever have guessed that? Maybe you shouldn't dredge them or it might happen again"

Posted by: Chuck C at May 31, 2023 11:48 AM (xttsV)

And all we can do is blow up some underwater pipelines...

Posted by: jim (in Kalifornia) at May 31, 2023 11:54 AM (ynpvh)

197 But should the colonial powers(and our own Perry) be praised or condemned for it?
Posted by: Red Turban Someguy - The Republic is already dead! at May 31, 2023 11:50 AM (eYoxG)

Hard to say. The run up to WWII was kind of similar to the headspace here in our own country. A belief- bordering on delusion- that the other side will not push it as far as they are openly stating they will.

I dunno. Hindsight is 20/20, but accommodation has never worked one damn time. That goes all the way back to the people facing off with Rome (and trying to accommodate them) to the Romans trying to accommodate with the Huns, Franks, Goths, Vandals, etc.

Posted by: Aetius451AD Work Laptop at May 31, 2023 11:54 AM (Vq2Tz)

198 They'll probably whack her in Russia now just to prove the point.
Posted by: Warai-otoko at May 31, 2023 11:52 AM (9UlRk)
++++
I doubt it. That's awfully hard to do and if it failed, it would blow up in our faces pretty badly. If this is true and it happens, Russia will get a propaganda victory out of it and then everyone will forget. An odd footnote in our very weird time.

Posted by: Joe Mannix (Not a cop!) at May 31, 2023 11:54 AM (DU+/6)

199 Just when you think America can't be more degraded...you're proven wrong.

--

Wow. Her grandmother is healthy enough to stand up and dance with her (in addition to going out to dinner), and she still encourages Bubbie to commit suicide.

Posted by: You had your day for dead GIs, now here's a month to celebrate men who are sexually aroused by feces at May 31, 2023 11:54 AM (5/7b/)

200 We need to set up a horde multiplayer game of Hearts of Iron III.
Posted by: Aetius451AD

I try to play now, but with my 64 bit computer, the game crashes every couple of days (in gametime).

Posted by: SFGoth at May 31, 2023 11:54 AM (KAi1n)

201 The Chinese are playing the Long Game.

You'd think they'd have considered how soon their One-Child Policy was going to kneecap them if this was actually the case.

Posted by: spindrift at May 31, 2023 11:55 AM (ivvNA)

202 Tara Reade just gave the Left a gift.

Posted by: polynikes at May 31, 2023 11:55 AM (C1CZ4)

203 I am betting that if they had extended the fortifications along their full eastern border, there would have been a lot more pushback from the German High Command on invading. Just a guess and we will probably never know. Defending a static line is easier than trying to react to an enemy that is trying to surround and cut off your forces. It does not help when you have a crap ton of conscripts. Clovis wept.

Fixed fortifications are monuments to the stupidity of man.
-George S. Patton

Posted by: Archimedes at May 31, 2023 11:55 AM (eOEVl)

204 188 “UK Royal Air Force recruiters were advised against selecting "useless white male pilots" to hit diversity targets”

What could possibly go wrong?

Posted by: Notorious BFD at May 31, 2023 11:52 AM (Xrfse)

What kind of munitions does one use to hit diversity targets?

Posted by: jim (in Kalifornia) at May 31, 2023 11:56 AM (ynpvh)

205 Clovis wept.

Posted by: Aetius451AD Work Laptop at May 31, 2023 11:47 AM (Vq2Tz)

He had a point.

Posted by: OrangeEnt at May 31, 2023 11:56 AM (Angsy)

206 I dunno. Hindsight is 20/20, but accommodation has never worked one damn time. That goes all the way back to the people facing off with Rome (and trying to accommodate them) to the Romans trying to accommodate with the Huns, Franks, Goths, Vandals, etc.
Posted by: Aetius451AD Work Laptop at May 31, 2023 11:54 AM (Vq2Tz)

Accommodation doesn't change incentive structures(though submission in the form of becoming a vassal or tributary does, and that can work to outlast an overlord). The power that gave in is usually in a weaker spot afterwards, so even easier to demand more from or attack.

I guess I could see surrendering territory or interests to buy time while resolving internal strife though.

Posted by: Red Turban Someguy - The Republic is already dead! at May 31, 2023 11:57 AM (eYoxG)

207 There is one thing that allows all of this leftist agenda to succeed. There is a law which allows normal citizens to sue government personnel PERSONALLY for depriving people of any of their Constitutional rights. Only judges and magistrates have immunity from those suits, and the law explains how they lose that immunity. However judges created the legal concepts of "absolute" and "qualified" immunity to cover essentially all government officials from being sued under that law. We need to fund a lawsuit to the SCOTUS level to get rid of the bad case law allowing government personnel to escape lawsuits under "absolute" and "qualified" immunity. Depriving somebody of a Constitutional right is a criminal offense, and there is no immunity under that criminal statute. There ought to be no immunity to civil suits for the same actions.

Posted by: An Observation sez China Joe not my president at May 31, 2023 11:57 AM (CecP5)

208 "Model press release"

At first I read that in reference to General Model. LOL
----------
The Germans are still the world's best toy makers.

Posted by: andycanuck (Vwz3I) at May 31, 2023 11:57 AM (Vwz3I)

209 You'd think they'd have considered how soon their One-Child Policy was going to kneecap them if this was actually the case.
Posted by: spindrift at May 31, 2023 11:55 AM (ivvNA)

That's Chinese History in a nutshell.

Everyone plays the Long Game until they're forced to play the Oh Shit Game.

Posted by: Warai-otoko at May 31, 2023 11:57 AM (9UlRk)

210 I saw the remake of Red Dawn earlier this week.

How things change. In the original, the Chinese were on our side also against the Russians:

Jed Eckert: Well... . who is on our side?
Col. Andy Tanner: Six hundred million screaming Chinamen.
Darryl Bates: Last I heard, there were a billion screaming Chinamen.
Col. Andy Tanner: There were... .

Posted by: Chuck C at May 31, 2023 11:58 AM (xttsV)

211 The Germans are still the world's best toy makers.
Posted by: andycanuck

Schultz worked in a toy store.

Posted by: SFGoth at May 31, 2023 11:58 AM (KAi1n)

212 How we beat them is by undermining them from within, while opposing them from without.

Posted by: Caesar North of the Rubicon at May 31, 2023 11:50 AM (cLB+r)

Yes, it's being worked on.

Posted by: Christianity at May 31, 2023 11:58 AM (Angsy)

213 We need to set up a horde multiplayer game of Hearts of Iron III.
Posted by: Aetius451AD Work Laptop at May 31, 2023 11:49 AM (Vq2Tz)


I can't imagine playing Paradox games multiplayer. The few I've played, I'm always hovering over the pause key waiting for the next disaster to hit. Then follows ten minutes of deliberation before finally opting for the worst move possible.

Posted by: spindrift at May 31, 2023 11:58 AM (ivvNA)

214 174 We need to set up a horde multiplayer game of Hearts of Iron III.

I'm in.

Posted by: Dr. Claw at May 31, 2023 11:59 AM (YohY1)

215 Berserker, not one but two different commenters have been doing a wellness check on you in recent days.

Do you owe money to someone?

Posted by: Aetius451AD Work Laptop at May 31, 2023 11:17 AM (Vq2Tz)

I'm fine, just really busy. A million things going on. Its been so nice weather wise I'm just not inside much.

Posted by: Berserker-Dragonheads Division at May 31, 2023 11:59 AM (VwHCD)

216 Tara Reade Didn't Kill Herself.

Posted by: ShainS -- Oppression Scientist and Your AI Interpreter at May 31, 2023 12:00 PM (+dlWd)

217 Scum

Posted by: rhennigantx at May 31, 2023 12:00 PM (BRHaw)

218 Fixed fortifications are monuments to the stupidity of man.
-George S. Patton
Posted by: Archimedes at May 31, 2023 11:55 AM (eOEVl)

Patton was a Calvary and tank guy. Movement is his military philosophy. But fortifications have their place and reasons. One of the main ones is diverting attacking armies to another path. The cost of attacking a well fortified position is always taken into account.

Posted by: polynikes at May 31, 2023 12:00 PM (C1CZ4)

219 The obvious problem with the criminal statute against using the pretense of law to deprive someone of their Constitutional rights, is that it is enforced by the Department of JustUs, and we all know how that goes.

Posted by: An Observation sez China Joe not my president at May 31, 2023 12:00 PM (CecP5)

220 “UK Royal Air Force recruiters were advised against selecting "useless white male pilots" to hit diversity targets”

--

We were watching a dog show over the weekend and one of the announcers talked about how great it was that there was a female dog competing in the show, especially since the show was being held at the Billy Jean King Memorial Center (or whatever) and that's awesome that a female dog can compete here, too.

I had no idea that even male *dogs* were superior to their female counterparts in even superficial stuff like being born more attractive and walking around on carpet better.

Thanks, announcer!

Posted by: You had your day for dead GIs, now here's a month to celebrate men who are sexually aroused by feces at May 31, 2023 12:00 PM (5/7b/)

221 This smiling blonde in a modest swimsuit is amused by the idea that "bikini blonde" cares at all about prewar steel or the war effort between the Japanese and China:

tinyurl.com/56jwtb4f

Posted by: FenelonSpoke at May 31, 2023 12:01 PM (Keyt1)

222 Ha, stopped in a convenience store. The beer cave was packed to the gills with Pud Light and Pud.
$15 rebates offered, cases are $18.
Posted by: Deplorable Ian Galt at May 31, 2023 11:53 AM


Does Bud Light offer a money back warranty? If so, buy a 24 pack, empty one in a sewer, then return the 23 remaining for a refund.

Posted by: Chuck C at May 31, 2023 12:01 PM (xttsV)

223
I think of this whenever I see the opening sequence in Saving Private Ryan. One modern jet armed with GPS-guided bunker busters would have eliminated the Nazi gun emplacements on the beach at Normandy. We could have strolled ashore.
Posted by: Archimedes at May 31, 2023 11:38 AM (eOEVl)



Just compare the outcome on Omaha and Utah beaches. Aside from the topological differences, at Omaha the naval and air bombardment famously overshot the beaches, leaving the fortifications largely intact.

Posted by: IllTemperedCur at May 31, 2023 12:01 PM (n+4am)

224 The Berserker Birdbath Protocol

Posted by: You had your day for dead GIs, now here's a month to celebrate men who are sexually aroused by feces at May 31, 2023 12:01 PM (5/7b/)

225 Was going to say that. They didn't overthrow shit. They bought it outright.

With your money!

Posted by: The CCP at May 31, 2023 12:02 PM (Sv58p)

226 Home inspection in PA did not go well, all of the systems in the house are electric, the inspector turned them all on, the dishwasher, dryer and other electrical systems and the current draw to the house overloaded the line to o the utility pole and the utility line caught fire and fell off the pole, leaving the house with no electrical utility.

So that's how my morning has gone.

Posted by: Thomas Bender at May 31, 2023 12:03 PM (luZ9s)

227 So that's how my morning has gone.
Posted by: Thomas Bender at May 31, 2023 12:03 PM (luZ9s)

Doo doo doo doo doo... the chores!

Doo doo doo doo doo... the stores!

Posted by: Warai-otoko at May 31, 2023 12:04 PM (9UlRk)

228 Odd choice of name for the game. Hitler famously referred to Heydrich as "The Man With an Iron Heart."

He reportedly told his son at the funeral that he was the only man he ever respected. "Because he had a heart of iron," he supposedly said in the moment.

Posted by: Yudhishthira's Dice at May 31, 2023 12:04 PM (oINRc)

229 NOODlum.

Posted by: Sponge - F*ck Joe Biden at May 31, 2023 12:05 PM (Zz0t1)

230 So that's how my morning has gone.

Sorry to hear. That really sucks.

Posted by: Notorious BFD at May 31, 2023 12:05 PM (Xrfse)

231 Home inspection in PA did not go well, all of the systems in the house are electric, the inspector turned them all on, the dishwasher, dryer and other electrical systems and the current draw to the house overloaded the line to o the utility pole and the utility line caught fire and fell off the pole, leaving the house with no electrical utility.

So that's how my morning has gone.
Posted by: Thomas Bender at May 31, 2023 12:03 PM (luZ9s)
++++
Wow. :-(

Posted by: Joe Mannix (Not a cop!) at May 31, 2023 12:05 PM (DU+/6)

232 3
I think of this whenever I see the opening sequence in Saving Private Ryan. One modern jet armed with GPS-guided bunker busters would have eliminated the Nazi gun emplacements on the beach at Normandy. We could have strolled ashore.
Posted by: Archimedes at May 31, 2023 11:38 AM (eOEVl)

----
How many bunker busters can a modern jet carry? And which jet are you considering? There were lots of pillboxes and big-gun emplacements.

Posted by: Ciampino -- Dark is faster than light, otherwise you would see it at May 31, 2023 12:06 PM (qfLjt)

233 Nood. Bud Lighting.

Posted by: RedMindBlueState at May 31, 2023 12:06 PM (KkFZv)

234 Pre-war steel was a big, big deal at the physics lab I worked at. They needed it to not mess up the readings from their experiments.

Posted by: t-bird at May 31, 2023 12:06 PM (CaJIi)

235 the inspector turned them all on

Is he going to check if the basement leaks by putting sandbags around the house and flooding the space/moat between the house and the sandbags?

Posted by: Chuck C at May 31, 2023 12:07 PM (xttsV)

236 The Chinese are playing the Long Game.

You'd think they'd have considered how soon their One-Child Policy was going to kneecap them if this was actually the case.
Posted by: spindrift at May 31, 2023 11:55 AM (ivvNA)
========================
We are in the "max risk" window with China right now, and will stay there for another decade or so. We are poorly armed, with our Afghan debacle and Ukraine weapons dump, with poor leadership. Our industrial base is barely beginning to be renewed. China is mobilized, well-armed, and aggressive, but population is declining. PRC leadership is politically fragile, relies on oppression, and is dependent on military support.

I'm betting China begins to apply serious diplomatic pressure on Taiwan within the Biden presidency and, after a time, announces a weapons blockade. Ships will be inspected by PRC before docking is permitted, and cargo flights will be required to be licensed and inspected. No American military help will be allowed.

There is little or nothing we could do to stop any of this. Taiwan will have to make a deal.

Posted by: Huck Follywood at May 31, 2023 12:07 PM (SMLb2)

237
Fixed fortifications are monuments to the stupidity of man.
-George S. Patton
Posted by: Archimedes at May 31, 2023 11:55 AM (eOEVl)



Yeah. About that...

Posted by: Metz at May 31, 2023 12:08 PM (n+4am)

238 my best friend as a kid in Dallas, his dad was a guest of the nips for a couple of years

when I first met him, my friend said "don't mention.."

"yeah, I know, the war"

"No, that you eat sushi"

Posted by: REDACTED at May 31, 2023 12:08 PM (us2H3)

239 They sacrificed hundreds, just to draw us out in the open. And then they came, and they came. We drained four of our phasers, and they still came. We killed thousands and they still came.

Posted by: andycanuck (Vwz3I) at May 31, 2023 12:08 PM (Vwz3I)

240 53 How are we not throwing a public hissy fit? This is exactly the angle that holds currency in that hemisphere. We are foregoing a simple tactical short term advantage and what are we getting for it?

Target careers, for one

Mainland China - Target prioritizes developing products that have a positive impact on people and the planet. Our goal is to deliver exceptional value, quality and style to elevate Target as the premier retailer in a competitive global marketplace.

The first of Target’s five Mainland China offices opened its doors in 1994 in Shanghai. As Target continues to focus on responsible sourcing for owned brands, four more Mainland China offices have opened in Guangzhou, Qingdao, Shenzhen, and Putian within decades.
----------
I shouldn't make light of this, more so given the Memorial Day holiday. Desecrating graves & monuments, especially those of heroes, is the ultimate insult but not to our elitists.

Posted by: Lola - ALL the 1/6 videotapes from Alexandra & Jade, too. at May 31, 2023 12:09 PM (GshMh)

241 The cost of attacking a well fortified position is always taken into account.

Posted by: polynikes at May 31, 2023 12:00 PM (C1CZ4)

Terrain counts as well, think Monte Cassino.

Posted by: javems at May 31, 2023 12:13 PM (AmoqO)

242 "Schultz worked in a toy store."

Correction....

He owned a toy company.

Posted by: Somewhere South of I-80 at May 31, 2023 12:16 PM (89Sog)

243 238 my best friend as a kid in Dallas, his dad was a guest of the nips for a couple of years

when I first met him, my friend said "don't mention.."

"yeah, I know, the war"

"No, that you eat sushi"

Posted by: REDACTED at May 31, 2023 12:08 PM (us2H3)

My stepdad was a Marine and fought in the Pacific, including Okinawa. He would not eat rice.

Posted by: javems at May 31, 2023 12:16 PM (AmoqO)

244 226 Home inspection in PA did not go well, all of the systems in the house are electric, the inspector turned them all on, the dishwasher, dryer and other electrical systems and the current draw to the house overloaded the line to o the utility pole and the utility line caught fire and fell off the pole, leaving the house with no electrical utility.

So that's how my morning has gone.
-----
That's a shame. But you learned either there were no operative breakers or the ones present weren't working. Rather no power to the house temporarily than your home burn to the ground. Wish you better luck.

Posted by: Lola - ALL the 1/6 videotapes from Alexandra & Jade, too. at May 31, 2023 12:17 PM (GshMh)

245 243 238 my best friend as a kid in Dallas, his dad was a guest of the nips for a couple of years

when I first met him, my friend said "don't mention.."

"yeah, I know, the war"

"No, that you eat sushi"

Posted by: REDACTED at May 31, 2023 12:08 PM (us2H3)

My stepdad was a Marine and fought in the Pacific, including Okinawa. He would not eat rice.

Posted by: javems at May 31, 2023 12:16 PM (AmoqO)

My Dad didn't want me buying "jap cars", as he put it.

Posted by: jim (in Kalifornia) at May 31, 2023 12:19 PM (ynpvh)

246 244 226 Home inspection in PA did not go well, all of the systems in the house are electric, the inspector turned them all on, the dishwasher, dryer and other electrical systems and the current draw to the house overloaded the line to o the utility pole and the utility line caught fire and fell off the pole, leaving the house with no electrical utility.

So that's how my morning has gone.
-----
That's a shame. But you learned either there were no operative breakers or the ones present weren't working. Rather no power to the house temporarily than your home burn to the ground. Wish you better luck.

Posted by: Lola - ALL the 1/6 videotapes from Alexandra & Jade, too. at May 31, 2023 12:17 PM (GshMh)

Yeah, sounds like the main house breaker was oversized.

Posted by: jim (in Kalifornia) at May 31, 2023 12:20 PM (ynpvh)

247 87 Remember the old days when Democrats didn't believe in propping up corrupt, inept, repressive governments?

No, when was that?

Posted by: Ray Van Dune at May 31, 2023 12:22 PM (OqSlY)

248 My stepdad was a Marine and fought in the Pacific, including Okinawa. He would not eat rice.

Posted by: javems at May 31, 2023 12:16 PM (AmoqO)
---------------
My dad was a Marine in the Pacific. After that he never ate Spam again. Rice he was okay with.

Posted by: Puddinhead at May 31, 2023 12:34 PM (uia9V)

249 Patton was a Calvary and tank guy.

I have been to Patton's grave. There is no resemblance.

You need to beat your software dealer soundly, so he can't make you into an asshole ever again.

And if I may add, Jesus Fucking Christ Almighty.

Posted by: Way, Way Downriver at May 31, 2023 12:34 PM (jYCXf)

250 Almost 100% certain they were after clean steel. There have been problems with scavenging of war graves for years over that.

Posted by: somedood at May 31, 2023 12:48 PM (rdEIA)

251 FDR knew. He sent all those men in Pearl Harbor to their deaths because like all democrats he was a cowardly snake.

Posted by: Justin Castreau at May 31, 2023 12:51 PM (V8yYW)

252 Posted by: Way, Way Downriver at May 31, 2023 12:34 PM (jYCXf)

You're really hung up on whoever that poster was, huh?

P.S. Jesus didn''t eff Christ--Christ means the "anointed" or "chsen" one and was an honorific.

Posted by: FenelonSpoke at May 31, 2023 12:51 PM (Keyt1)

253 "You'd think they'd have considered how soon their One-Child Policy was going to kneecap them if this was actually the case.
Posted by: spindrift at May 31, 2023 11:55 AM (ivvNA)"

The CCP has gone through several distinct phases. They've long since understood that the Soviets (and Stalin in particular) were fucking retarded and course-corrected and obviously understand by now the problem with their 1-child policy.

They're arguably on their 4th major set of policies. Overall, CCP leadership is doing a significantly better job as it pertains to the Chinese (and only the Chinese, specifically the primary ethnicity), than Western leadership is doing for its constituents. Western leadership actively hates us; the CCP doesn't particularly hate the Chinese.

Sure, mainland China has major elements of being a dystopian shitshow, but give the West another 10-15 years and you'll understand.

Posted by: somedood at May 31, 2023 12:53 PM (rdEIA)

254 Booby-trap other shipwreck grave sites with a nuclear bomb. Only one needs to be triggered to stop such antics by the Red Chinese.

Posted by: bang-a-gong at May 31, 2023 12:57 PM (FLdnA)

255 204
hat kind of munitions does one use to hit diversity targets?

Posted by: jim (in Kalifornia) at May 31, 2023 11:56 AM (ynpvh)
----
wet condoms

Posted by: Ciampino --- Dark is faster than light, otherwise you would see it at May 31, 2023 01:02 PM (qfLjt)

256 Interesting about the radiation-free steel. I worked on a program supplying the U.S government and the international community with radiation detectors as part of the Comprehensive Test Ban Treaty. The actual detector was surrounded in lead to prevent outside radiation "noise" from interfering with the detector's measurements. The lead, therefore, had to be radiation-free itself and was sourced from New York City who had dug up their pre-WWII underground lead sewer pipe system and sold the radiation-free lead to the government.

Posted by: JT Smith at May 31, 2023 01:05 PM (FxdZx)

257 Interesting about the speculation of Red China looting the ships for their high-grade steel. Working international pipeline construction China often tried to get on the bid lists for the pipe. 400-500 km of pipe is a lot of steel and a good contract to get.

But nobody trusts Chinese steel, not for anything that requires durability & longevity. The China QA/QC is, basically, "whatever we can get away with." Apparently the CCP shares that view of the quality of steel from China's mills.

Posted by: LCMS Rulz! at May 31, 2023 01:30 PM (K58O6)

258 Food for thought: Do you consider getting murdered to be worse than getting robbed? I don't.

And that's why I'm a proud non-voter.

Posted by: Yudhishthira's Dice at May 31, 2023 02:19 PM (SvNHq)

259 Interesting to watch what a country does when it is all going to hell. China is over. Just a matter of how ugly it gets while doing so.

Posted by: Black JEM at May 31, 2023 04:17 PM (6w0/G)

260 On the plus side, it doesn't belong to Red China, either. This is not the Chinese Century, nor will it be. It will also not be an American Century. The superpower system is finished, and we will have rival regional powers with a fair amount of conflict at the frontiers.
Posted by: Joe Mannix (Not a cop!) at May 31, 2023 11:16 AM (DU+/6)
_____________

It depends on what you mean by an American Century - if it means global reach and power, we will still have the capability to reach wherever we want if we choose to. If it means wanting to, then no because we mostly won't care - hence the bilateral trade deals with countries we want to have them with. Outside of this hemisphere that pretty much means Japan, South Korea, and maybe the UK. The rest we either don't care about or realize they're screwed, or both.

Posted by: Black JEM at May 31, 2023 04:27 PM (6w0/G)

261 On that I have to disagree. While I do agree that for the most part regional powers are the future, that will effect the West and former USSR states the most. China will be the last one standing almost by default. Who is going to stop them? In 20 years the USA military will be a complete joke (by design) and incapable of anything. Yes, I know China has its own problems. But they are nothing compared to our own and the West's. China is the future, even if it amounts to them being the one-eyed man in the land of the blind.
==
Nope - China's population will halve in about 25 years. Many of us have seen Zeihan's demographic charts. And China is no longer in our trading world. Europe is dying off so cannot consume what China has, and the rest of Asia hates China's guts. And Japan, ah yes Japan, can cut off their food and energy import infrastructure in a month.

China is already swirling the drain. The US will lead a NA trading zone that will leave us very comfortable compared to everyone else.

We just have to defeat the commies in our midst.

Posted by: Black JEM at May 31, 2023 04:30 PM (6w0/G)

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