Suicide Is Painless?

Oh, this is really cute. Go read the Wiki entry for the song (better known as the theme from M*A*S*H)

From Wiki:

Mike Altman was 14 years old when he wrote the song’s lyrics.
The song was written specifically for Ken Prymus, the actor playing Private Seidman, who sang it during the faux-suicide of Walter "Painless Pole" Waldowski (John Schuck) in the film's "Last Supper" scene.[1][2] Director Robert Altman had two stipulations about the song for Mandel: it had to be called "Suicide Is Painless" and it had to be the "stupidest song ever written".[3] Altman attempted to write the lyrics himself, but upon finding it too difficult for his 45-year-old brain to write "stupid enough,"[4] he gave the task to his 14-year-old-son Michael, who wrote the lyrics in five minutes.

I believe that like I believe that Jesus Christ and Elvis and Marilyn Monroe are running a bed and breakfast in Walla Walla Washington, one that specializes in saving your soul after marinating it in rock and roll and fucking it's brains out (that's unfair to Marilyn, a tortured soul who might very well be the object of this post if she were alive today, but instead she became a cultural icon so she is what she is in the popular mind). Some kid wrote a very poignant song in 5 minutes, because his father wanted something "stupid". Sure.

Suicide has touched my life again, prompting this post. Fifteen years ago, my cousin C took his own life. He was 17. He was infatuated with some piece of ass and when she rejected him, in a fit of emotion he grabbed a gun (and to give my uncle credit, he had recognized the signs and gotten all of the guns in the house away, what C used was a display piece that everyone thought was just a replica. Unfortunately not) and ruined so many lives.

I was a relative newcomer to that side of my family. (I'm adopted, this is my birth mom's family). I was in my mid 30s at the time. I had just met mom a few years earlier, and she called me with this. I know for a fact that she had latched on to C as a substitute for me, the son she had given up (which she had to do, given circumstances. Please understand that there is no anger, resentment, hate or fury over being adopted on my part. She did the hardest thing a woman can do, and she did it for me, and as a result I had a wonderful childhood and life. She loved me enough to give me that. Anger? Awe is more like it).

C was gone. C had been my uncle E's son, and now he was gone. He had been my aunt B's son, my cousin K's brother, and my mother's substitute son, and now he was gone. I was dropped into this emotional maelstrom when my mom called me and told me what had happened and asked me to come. I went. What else could I do? It was family.

I watched E hand craft an absolutely beautiful box for C's ashes. He was maybe 2 days without sleep at this point, but his movements as he was cutting the wood were exact. I saw my cousin K create a devastatingly emotional memorial to her brother. I saw mom B holding the whole family together by her sheer force of will.

I saw all of these incredible people, doing incredible things, while their hearts were breaking, all because of the actions of one stupid, grandstanding, moron, idiot jackass.

Yes, jackass. I mean, I love the kid, but as great as he was, he wasn't worth the pain he put everyone else through.

Which brings me around to my wife's aunt B. Aunt B saw fit to hang herself yesterday. It wasn't a surprise, she'd tried with pills before, but everyone had mobilized to try and save her. She was out at a peaceful farm in the countryside, but as it turns out, all that gave her was a barn with a cross beam that wouldn't break.

So now that side of the family is roiled. Nevermind that they'll never be the same, everyone is arranging flights, planning trips and putting their own lives on hold. For what? Just to bury a woman who felt that now that her grand kids were grown she had no purpose. The sad thing is that the reaction of the family proves her wrong. How sad that she never saw that before. How utterly tragic is it that suicidal depression so often fools people into believing that they are doing a favor for the very people that they are hurting the most. THAT is the evil of suicide. You want to cross that bridge? Fine. It's your life, you can throw it away. I'd counsel you against it, but whatever. The thing is, you don't live in a void. All of those people that you think will be better off without you? Yeah, you just destroyed them. For the rest of their lives they will bear the indelible stain of your decision on their hearts. Fifteen years later, for a cousin I honestly hardly knew, it still breaks my heart. You're not letting them off the hook, you're shoving the hook through the center of their chest and hanging them from it. Forever. Please don't.

This has been the most self-involved post I've ever made. Sorry. But it is what it is, and what I really want to do is to give out the number of the national lifeline: 800-273-8255

If any of you out there feel like you're at the end of your rope, and you have nowhere to go but out, please, please, please, I beg you, make the call. Call a fellow member of the Horde. Send an email. I know that I'm not alone in saying that I'll hop on a flight anytime if someone truly needs me. Most of us will. You may wind up doing it anyway. Fine. But please give the rest of us the opportunity to tell you how much we love you before you do, OK? Please let us show you what you're worth.

Posted by: WeirdDave at 12:11 PM




Comments

(Jump to bottom of page)

1 It is never painless. Way too much left behind.

Posted by: I say no more. at October 13, 2019 12:16 PM (vqIkG)

2 Wow, sorry Dave. You and your family are in my prayers. And yes, get help!

Posted by: dIb at October 13, 2019 12:16 PM (VJOLZ)

3 Dang I'm sorry to read that.

Posted by: Comanche Voter at October 13, 2019 12:17 PM (WRSbt)

4 Sorry Dave.. I can actually say I feel your pain.. and anger... My Husbands Brother killed himself many years ago over a bad divorce... Went out in a hail of bullets and took part of his Apartment with him.. Fortunately no one else was hurt... You never get over it

Posted by: It's me donna at October 13, 2019 12:18 PM (O2RFr)

5 So sorry WeirdDave for your family's losses.

Yeah, the suicide thing is simply a disaster for everyone left behind. I'm pretty sure my boys have fully recovered from the loss of their mother thru suicide.

I hope.

Who am I kidding - I ponder it all the time.

My contact info in is my nic - as WD said, reach out and get me ANYTIME. I'll do whatever I can to help you through your hell.

Posted by: Tonypete at October 13, 2019 12:20 PM (Y4EXg)

6 Already stomped. That might be a record.

Posted by: Insomniac at October 13, 2019 12:21 PM (NWiLs)

7 I'm sorry to hear of it, WD.

Posted by: Insomniac at October 13, 2019 12:23 PM (NWiLs)

8 Damn Dave, that truly sucks. My sympathies and prayers.
I have lost several friends to suicide, including my business partner and up til then a lifelong friend. That was in 88...
I tell people all the time, if you are first on your list of people that need to be killed, you REALLY need to re order your priorities.
I am with Weird Dave, let somebody know. All of us care more than we let on...

Posted by: Jesse in DC at October 13, 2019 12:28 PM (ouR/N)

9 Lost an Aunt.
Big family get together at this years Walk out of Darkness.

Posted by: DaveA at October 13, 2019 12:28 PM (FhXTo)

10 Took courage, and love, to write this WeirdDave.

Thanks.

Posted by: Voter theater. at October 13, 2019 12:32 PM (5BVHO)

11 Sorry to hear of this tragedy. I have had two siblings attempt, and thankfully fail, to commit suicide over the years.

Last year, I found an old friend had shot himself at a VA parking lot. He was in acute pain and clearly suffering from mental illness.

I've suffered a number of losses. I had nearly a dozen friends murdered by different kinds of terrorists in 3 different countries. That creates huge messes too.

I know how you feel. I don't have any good advice but I can say each day brings a bit of recovery. And don't be shocked by an occasional bad day. Focus on the good memories. That helps a bit.

Posted by: WarEagle82 at October 13, 2019 12:32 PM (+Kpte)

12 Dave
I know all too much of this from the other side.
I made three attempts. I finally got help. It was hard and it was miserable.
My life then had been shattered by divorce and I was wrecked.
My friends and family saved me. One in particular.
If we are nothing. We are the Horde and we'll stand byu any of us to help.
Mis Hum and OM have my address if anyone needs to talk.

Posted by: Winston a dreg of society at October 13, 2019 12:33 PM (Tt761)

13 Very heartfelt condolences Weird Dave. Spot on. It's always hardest on the ones left behind.

Prayers for all involved and thanks for posting the ph number!

Posted by: Infidel at October 13, 2019 12:38 PM (OM4Ma)

14 I am with Weird Dave, let somebody know. All of us care more than we let on...
Posted by: Jesse in DC at October 13, 2019 12:28 PM (ouR/N)


It's really not that simple, and there's a risk in thinking we... those of us trying to intervene, will be able to do anything to stop the person who attempts suicide.

Sometimes we can. Often we can't.

Kids are especially vulnerable, because they generally don't think ANYTHING through. So the myth that people have warning signs is very dangerous, when a teen or young adult completes suicide. Families tear themselves apart accusing each other of "missing" the signs.

As for older adults, yeah, I do think at some point we just have to accept their choice. You decided to end it. Who am I to argue that your pain wasn't unbearable enough to warrant your choice. I don't know.

All I ask, if you ARE an otherwise rational adult (I'm not talking about somebody who is in a current episode of depression or other serious mental illness), don't leave a mess for someone else to clean up.

Posted by: BurtTC at October 13, 2019 12:38 PM (hku12)

15 I'm sorry for your family's loss, Dave.

I don't know how you have it in you to write so beautifully about this. Thanks.

Posted by: Chi-Town Jerry at October 13, 2019 12:40 PM (438dO)

16 Watching a fantasy football show and getting tears in my eyes is a really odd feeling....

Posted by: SSBN 656 (G) at October 13, 2019 12:42 PM (5AVMW)

17 A friend of mine kept talking about offing himself, that everyone would be better off without him. I related specific instances of how he'd helped his nephews, and that they would miss their uncle. Then I reminded him that although it was hard for his mom to see him sick' she at least lived in hope every day that he would get better. If he took his life, her hope would die with him.

Posted by: kallisto at October 13, 2019 12:44 PM (jCN1w)

18 So sorry for what your family is going through, Dave.

My sister-in-law took her life two years, a day after surgery, leaving behind my devoted brother and three kids in their 20's. My niece, with three small children of her own, especially misses her mother. I don't think any of us understands why she did what she did. And there's no possibility that her suicide was an accident. It was very intentional.

My brother said at her memorial service that he was comforted by the knowledge that one day he would see her again and she would be able to explain it and he would understand.

May you and your family find peace and solace in the coming days and years.

Posted by: biancaneve at October 13, 2019 12:45 PM (hkMx0)

19 I've been lurking here for years, and I don't recall any single post (as opposed to a link within a post) bringing a tear to my eye. Until now. Very sorry to hear this story. Be well.

Posted by: SC Math Teacher at October 13, 2019 12:45 PM (Smwf3)

20 May God bless those who have taken their own life and those they have left behind. His mercy and love know no bounds.

Posted by: The Man from Athens at October 13, 2019 12:47 PM (J7NdS)

21 Lost a band mate and good friends last year. Stepped in front of an tow truck on I55. He had 3 young boys

Posted by: Big Alfredo at October 13, 2019 12:47 PM (ht815)

22 Weird Dave,

My dad ate a bullet. He was an evil, nasty motherfucker. He blamed me for everything. I cut him out of my life when I found out he was watching my kids, drinking and driving around with them in the car carrying a loaded handgun.

He was hoping to cause pain. My brother shielded me from the suicide note. I never read it.

I was a wreck for a couple weeks. Now I'm glad he's dead. And I'm even happier he's not around to guilt trip me about anything anymore.

May God comfort you and your family.

Posted by: Nurse ratched at October 13, 2019 12:47 PM (eNlPi)

23 Very well said WD and sorry for your loss. Having been through that ourselves with one of my cousins over that very same thing.. needless to say, my aunt/uncle still haven't gotten over it and no longer look forward to Christmas or any other holiday season despite having four other boys..

I get scolded from time to time for saying this but I for one think suicide is incredibly selfish and cowardly (minus a few few exceptions)..

Deepest condolences brother.

Posted by: NALNAMSAM - not as lean, not as mean, still a Marine at October 13, 2019 12:50 PM (+ldAm)

24 WeirdDave, Your writing is thoughtful and poignant. Mr. JTB and I will keep you and Gingy in our prayers. Deepest condolences are sent.

Posted by: Mrs. JTB at October 13, 2019 12:53 PM (bmdz3)

25 Unfortunately, I've been where Dave is. Even closer, if you can imagine. I will vouch for every word he chose.

I'm a walking suicide hotline and I can take time out of my day to listen.

I don't believe in "therapy", in most of its current forms but I do believe in listening and lightening the mood. You never know where the conversation will go.

-O Divine Master, grant that I may not seek to be consoled as to console; to be understood as to understand; to be loved as to love.

Email in nic.

Posted by: Slapweasel, H.M.F.I.C., Slapweasel Industries at October 13, 2019 12:53 PM (Ckg4U)

26 My cousin may have killed himself. It was senseless. Really, nobody understood, no note or anything. He was on top of the world when it happened.

I say may have, because 1.) the girlfriend makes me suspicious, and 2.) it was determined a suicide by the Philly PD, and I don't particularly trust them.

Posted by: Yudhishthira's Dice at October 13, 2019 12:53 PM (5aX2M)

27 Nic update *test*

Posted by: Slapweasel, H.M.F.I.C., Slapweasel Industries at October 13, 2019 12:54 PM (Ckg4U)

28 Yes, and how thoughtless of me... I'm so sorry for your family's loss, WD. Sincerest condolences.

Posted by: Yudhishthira's Dice at October 13, 2019 12:55 PM (5aX2M)

29 Gee whiz...

*test #2*

Posted by: Slapweasel, H.M.F.I.C., Slapweasel Industries at October 13, 2019 12:55 PM (Ckg4U)

30 Two months ago my cousin jumped (off a bridge, I think, his family did its best to sanitize everything). I barely knew him because of a rift in the family, but I do know that his humor was on par with his half-brother and my brother. He was smart and handsome but had no direction in his life, which is what probably led to that jump. My aunt is still a total wreck.

And, of course, there's Pooky's nearly-successful attempt almost three years ago, which we are still dealing with its aftermath almost every day.

You are loved, no matter what you might think. You matter to someone on this earth, and to God in heaven.

Posted by: pookysgirl, hunter-gatherer of data at October 13, 2019 12:56 PM (XKZwp)

31 I'm so very sorry to hear this WD.

A couple of years ago, a rash of suicides hit our little neighborhood. Men and women, only thing in common was their age - middle age - with school aged children.

Even though it isn't covered as such in newspapers, everyone in a small neighborhood knows what happened. One family had recently buried a grandfather who had taken his own life, then his DIL took hers.

It's a difficult thing to bear, and leaves permanent scars on the family.

Posted by: Boots at October 13, 2019 12:58 PM (oGBso)

32 Thanks Dave. I'll remember this

Posted by: SamIam at October 13, 2019 12:59 PM (oasF3)

33 Thank you for this.

Posted by: Darth Chipmunk at October 13, 2019 01:02 PM (+S1Fy)

34 Only painless for the one, everyone else gets holding the bag.

BTW saw MASH first in a drive in as a kid

Posted by: Skip at October 13, 2019 01:06 PM (ZCEU2)

35 Good post, WD. My condolences to your family for their loss and the pain of dealing with it.

Life is a miracle. For good or ill, there is a point to it.

Posted by: Aetius451AD at October 13, 2019 01:06 PM (ycWCI)

36 Terribly sorry to hear that.

I suffer from depression myself, and when my wife died to cancer 4 and half years ago, followed by my sister dying unexpectedly a month later....well, since then I've "wished" that it could all end. But among other things, I have 2 young boys, and I know what it would do to my family. At the same time, I feel like I understand why people do it, and I am scared that once my boys grow up and leave home, what am I going to do with myself? At the end, you're in so much pain that you're not thinking straight, and you think you're doing everyone around you a favor. I know that if I ever get to that point, I'm calling for help, because I know that it's not true.

I am so sorry for your loss.

Posted by: Andy_in_Colorado at October 13, 2019 01:06 PM (QrTem)

37 Thank you my brother. Peace be with you and the family. It's so hard.

Posted by: Bones at October 13, 2019 01:06 PM (YPJrZ)

38 Anthony Bordain said people with Depression are like the people in the WTC on 9/11 . Burn in a fire or take the easier way by jumping . People with depression are hurting that bad.

Posted by: Big Alfredo at October 13, 2019 01:09 PM (WBiRf)

39 You never know what inner demons someone might be fighting. Sometimes you get so busy fighting your demons that you forget that and fail to reach out to someone who might have some useful tips on demon-fighting. You never know what inner demons someone might have fought. It might surprise you to learn.

Posted by: Stack Overflow, PI at October 13, 2019 01:09 PM (Fb/OU)

40 I had an aunt attempt and finally succeed in taking her own life. She was so lovely and fun and special. Unfortunately, she was also sick with hallucinations and voices.

No matter how hard and how often you try to help someone, they can and do find a way when they have made the decision.

Condolences to all that have lost people they love.
Dave and Gingy, you are in my thoughts.

Posted by: Alice McD at October 13, 2019 01:13 PM (fWdPl)

41 My husband's sister may have taken her life last week. We don't have a definitive answer. She was in her 70s, suffering from dementia and living at her son's home. She'd posted on Facebook that she was unhappy and that suicide sounded good. I noticed the post and had my husband contact his nephew. Everything seemed okay but she seems to have overdosed on aspirin.

She was an unhappy person that alienated her family. I'm sorry she took that way out, but the way she was headed, she would have wound up in assisted living. She didn't appreciate what she had

Posted by: notsothoreau at October 13, 2019 01:17 PM (Lqy/e)

42 Its hard to help a person who doesn't want to be, wish I knew how to change that.

Posted by: Skip at October 13, 2019 01:18 PM (ZCEU2)

43 but I for one think suicide is incredibly selfish

1st sponsor referred to it as "The Ultimate FuckYou".

Posted by: DaveA at October 13, 2019 01:22 PM (FhXTo)

44 Its hard to help a person who doesn't want to be, wish I knew how to change that.
Posted by: Skip at October 13, 2019 01:18 PM (ZCEU2)


That's just it, there is so much effort being put into helping people find another way out, and it sometimes works, on a case by case basis. So it's worth trying.

But sometimes it doesn't work, and it has nothing to do with the willingness or effort on the part of those who are trying to prevent suicide. Both the professionals and family members.

So maybe a little peace for survivors is worth emphasizing. It's not your fault. You didn't cause it, you didn't do something wrong. You only knew what you did, and the person who completed suicide, that was their choice.

Mourn your loss, and forgive yourself.

Posted by: BurtTC at October 13, 2019 01:22 PM (hku12)

45 but I for one think suicide is incredibly selfish
-------------------------
1st sponsor referred to it as "The Ultimate FuckYou".
Posted by: DaveA at October 13, 2019 01:22 PM (FhXTo)


Sometimes. But usually not.

Posted by: BurtTC at October 13, 2019 01:23 PM (hku12)

46 So maybe a little peace for survivors is worth emphasizing. It's not your fault. You didn't cause it, you didn't do something wrong. You only knew what you did, and the person who completed suicide, that was their choice.

Mourn your loss, and forgive yourself.
Posted by: BurtTC at October 13, 2019 01:22 PM (hku12)

Absolutely this.

Posted by: Aetius451AD at October 13, 2019 01:23 PM (ycWCI)

47 BiL did it some years over a x, woman wasn't worth it in my view.

Posted by: Skip at October 13, 2019 01:25 PM (ZCEU2)

48 She didn't appreciate what she had
Posted by: notsothoreau

Perhaps, she did. After alienating her family, the knowledge that they cared so much for her well being that they were there for her, may have been too much regret for her to bear.
I do think our people know, until there last moment, that they are loved.
That alone is not enough once the decision is made, unfortunately.

Posted by: Alice McD at October 13, 2019 01:26 PM (fWdPl)

49 Wow Andy. You are so wise. SALUTE for fighting through the pain for your boys. Please be searching for help to lessen the pain. I distrust the psychiatry field, but they have made breakthroughs in correcting some of the brain chemistry malfunctions ; not availing oneself of that help when it is needed would be like a diabetic thinking that they need to control blood sugar solely through diet and never take insulin.

Posted by: PaleRider is simply irredeemable at October 13, 2019 01:31 PM (cDw3P)

50 I've been at the point where I thought I would be doing my family -- and the world -- a favor by removing one more total loser from the world -- me.

It took time, but I was convinced I was wrong.

You and yours are in my prayers, Dave. You didn't have to share this, but I'm grateful you did.

Posted by: Captain Whitebread at October 13, 2019 01:33 PM (rJUlF)

51 I'll bet you saved a life with this, WeirdDave.

Posted by: m at October 13, 2019 01:33 PM (vFhit)

52 I'm so sorry Dave. I was touched recently by the suicide of a friend and coworker that no one even knew was in danger. We really can never know the inner thoughts of another person or how close to the edge they are. Any death in a family is hard. A senseless one that makes everyone feel guilty for not seeing it coming is beyond brutal.

Posted by: Scot at October 13, 2019 01:34 PM (P5ybX)

53 I lost a patient to suicide many years ago. She had found out her boyfriend was cheating on her. Her friends and family held a massive memorial for her. I wish she had thought to ask for help.
What haunts me is that I had seen her just the week before for a completely minor ailment and she seemed perfectly fine.

Posted by: Dr Alice at October 13, 2019 01:38 PM (oW/8k)

54 51 I'll bet you saved a life with this, WeirdDave.
Posted by: m at October 13, 2019 01:33 PM (vFhit)

Amen to this!!!

Posted by: The Man from Athens at October 13, 2019 01:41 PM (QMwOT)

55 Captain glad to see you here,,hadn't in quite some time.

Posted by: Skip at October 13, 2019 01:44 PM (ZCEU2)

56 What's especially sad about suicide is that it appears from anecdotal research that many who jump (and survive, which is why we know) regret instantly what they did, only it's too late to go back.
In an earlier and more devout age, we'd believe they were inhabited by evil spirits, who flee the moment they're not needed, leaving behind a tormented soul who knows they screwed up.
I think about the time I sort-of tried to commit suicide. Driving home from a bar, sexually frustrated and drunk, I deliberately drove around the curve on the wrong side of the road. Deeply committed, not knowing what would happen (the curve was well-lit, no way of seeing oncoming headlights). I rolled the dice and survived.
That was more than 3 decades ago, and I'm grateful that by my stupid impulse I didn't kill myself and fuck up someone else's life.

Posted by: Uma Thurmond's Feet at October 13, 2019 01:46 PM (1Z1M3)

57 I'm thankful for whoever this saves because you had the courage to share, WeirdDave. May God bless you and ease your pain.

Posted by: Kaner at October 13, 2019 01:47 PM (rR7m4)

58 My best friend from high school is gone. Rough time at work, non-fatal but painful medical problems with his guts, no one knows what else was his excuse. He tried the drug route, but his family found him and got his stomach pumped. He talked his way past the psyche evaluation and shot himself the day he got home. 2 high school kids left behind. School therapist dad is doubting himself. Messed up older sister is more messed up. Identical twin cousin is stunned and staggered. The rest of the family is left to wonder, why didn't we see it? Why didn't he reach out? No note left behind, so it's a damn self-murder mystery without a final chapter.

Posted by: Downcast at October 13, 2019 01:49 PM (HTAGb)

59 ...at the risk of pissing off all y'all.

You folks have no idea what it's like to live, day to day...month to month...year after year, with a brain that actively hates you.

There is no respite from the internal dialogue of self loathing.

For some people talk therapy, pharmacological interventions, ECT have no effect...(raises his hand).

I can't be angry with folks who choose this option. It's a hard life out there when you can't stop the pain.

Hard, hard topic WD. Sorry for your losses.


Posted by: browndog at October 13, 2019 01:56 PM (bGMOs)

60 55 Captain glad to see you here,,hadn't in quite some time.
Posted by: Skip at October 13, 2019 01:44 PM (ZCEU2)


I'm not around the HQ as much as I used to be.

I still hang around on Twitter, because I apparently still hate myself.

Posted by: Captain Whitebread at October 13, 2019 02:04 PM (rJUlF)

61 ...at the risk of pissing off all y'all.

You folks have no idea what it's like to live, day to day...month to month...year after year, with a brain that actively hates you.


Hello, browndog.

You haven't pissed me off. I know exactly of what you speak.

I get it. I really do.

Posted by: Captain Whitebread at October 13, 2019 02:05 PM (rJUlF)

62 Browndog,
I understand

And I hope I didn't piss anyone off with my earlier comment.

Suicide is the ultimate "fuck all y'all."
And rarely do people succeed the first time.

Posted by: Nurse ratched at October 13, 2019 02:05 PM (PkVlr)

63 Lost my 17 y/o son to this seven years ago now. No warning, no resolution for us. Wife and I stayed married, but I understand why the death of a child destroys many marriages.

Posted by: GeneTheHappy at October 13, 2019 02:05 PM (F5hNR)

64 That was beautiful, WeirdDave. Thank you for taking the time to write it. Praying for peace for your family.

Posted by: Nancy at 7000 ft at October 13, 2019 02:09 PM (0tmoY)

65 Very well written post. I had a friend in HS who killed himself, and my sister-in-law did too. It is SO TRUE that the people the suicider thinks they are sparing are not spared, but rather tortured. My friend's mother tried and tried to get him help. I swear to you this guy went from a very ordinary, neurotic, NYC teenager to a completely paranoid and delusional person over the course of a few weeks, no longer than a month.

His mom was unsuccessful in getting any help for him because nobody saw that he was indeed a danger to himself. His brother found him which I'm sure didn't help that guy one bit.

My sis-in-law was diagnosed as bi-polar, and managed to find herself a therapist who told her it was OK not to take her meds. That downward spiral took a lot longer than my friend's had, but the end result was the same.

PLEASE DON'T KILL YOURSELF!

Posted by: jocon307 at October 13, 2019 02:12 PM (HYa+m)

66
I don't know what causes suicide, because people are all different. But it's my deeply held belief that narcissism plays a key role.

Some commit suicide because they actually want to inflict the pain on others. She dumped me, I'll kill myself and then she'll feel responsible. That's a very selfish, self-centered thing to do.

Some think they are doing it to free others from their burden. But that's really narcissistic to. To think that others in your life are constantly sitting round and bemoaning what a burden you are, is to again imagine that you are the center of the universe and that the acting of caring for you is done out of unwilling obligation instead of love. The greatest thing I ever did was care for my invalid father who was bedridden for 5 years. I learned more about myself and him than in the previous 65 years. And we both found the Lord during that time,

Many want an end to their own physical and mental suffering disregarding what there actions do to those around them. That also is a self-centered action.

I'm sure there are mental disorders that account for other reasons, but the general theme is that the individual can't see outside of themselves.

If there exists a magic pill for narcissism, it's no pill at all. It's a personal relationship and knowledge of the life and grace of Jesus Christ, the divinity of God appearing in the Son of Man. He had all power, all perfection, all wisdom and did nothing for himself, opting to instead offer himself as a substitute sacrifice that all humanity would be reconciled to Him and the Heavenly Father. He remains penultimately the only true selfless man to ever grace existence.

At our very core, festers a sinful desire to be God ourselves, to make ourselves the center of the world and control the world around us, borne in the Garden and passed from generation to generation, a recessive gene that cripples, defiles and destroys us all. It was offered by our enemy, who wanted the same for himself, to defy the creator and self-rule, but make no mistake, it was freely chose by us.

The relief for the sin is not shame. The relief is to embrace its opposite, which cancels it. To combat selfishness, one must embrace selflessness.

I ate a bottle of pills in my youth. I'm aware of what was in my mind. It was just me thinking about me. The Lord decided otherwise and plucked my wretched existence from the trash-heap I'd flung it in and decided He wasn't done with me yet.

I'm not nice. I'm not good. I'm not even much of anything worthy. But what I have learned is that I'm here because the man upstairs says
I'm supposed to be and he has a use for me and so I now march dutifully on, if not always in the straightest if paths because the purpose of my life is to serve, not rule.

Or something like that, anyway.

Posted by: Bitter Clinger at October 13, 2019 02:16 PM (LQMoO)

67 Bitter Clinger,
Truer words were never spoken.

If you ever make it to Seattle, please
Look me up. Mark has my email. Or just email me anyway.

God bless you. And peace be with you.

Posted by: Nurse ratched at October 13, 2019 02:20 PM (PkVlr)

68 So sorry for your loss Weird Dave, thank you for sharing the pain and confusion with us.

When we are young and/or have poorly developed coping skills, the thought of suicide can appear as a "reset" out of the pain and hopelessness that is omnipresent in every moment of every day. But it's not, it's just an end with no relief for you or the people around you.

We are very driven by our body chemistry, BUT our actions also can affect the bad chemistry we have - It's old fashioned advise but true, it's important to stay active and involved in something more than yourself. Volunteer, go back to school.

Posted by: batterup at October 13, 2019 02:31 PM (U2JQS)

69 Anyone know how to get in touch with Ace and suggest this thread be made into something permanently readable?

Because I think it should be. The powerful writing and even more powerful caring ought to be available always.

Posted by: Empire1 at October 13, 2019 02:34 PM (F8mMa)

70 I am sorry for your loss and for all of the losses mentioned here in the comments.
One of my uncles committed suicide, and the worst of it was that he didn't completely succeed in shooting his brains out. I wish the EMTs had let him go. He never regained consciousness but lived another five weeks in the ICU, with my aunt for taking him off the respirator and my cousins all "you can't kill Dad". It was a nightmare. Blame game still goes on nearly 20 years later.
May we all find peace.

Posted by: roamingfirehydrant at October 13, 2019 02:35 PM (THS4q)

71 A coworker of mine killed himself, someone I'd worked with nearly every day for ten years. We got along, but we weren't close. It turns out he'd been suffering from depression for years; I'd had no idea. The Friday before he killed himself, I was working with some code that he'd written, and admiring it: it was well crafted and utterly bug-free - he was truly conscientious programmer - and it solved a serious problem that I'd been grappling with. I thought about emailing him to thank him for it, but I figured I'd just tell him the following Monday; but by then, he was gone. Now and again, I wonder if my email would have made a difference. Probably not. But I should have sent it anyway. I guess the lesson is: Don't wait. Don't assume that there will be a tomorrow.

Posted by: Brown Line at October 13, 2019 02:38 PM (S6ArX)

72 Very touching thread, read all so far

Posted by: Skip at October 13, 2019 02:45 PM (ZCEU2)

73 'It's a long day without you my friend - and I'll tell you all about it when I see you again'

Posted by: kallisto at October 13, 2019 03:08 PM (d3k/b)

74 Suicide is not an selfish act or one of narcissism. That may irritate some people, but that is because they can't see things through the eyes of a person who suffers from depression so severe that they take their own life. People think depression is an attitude and you can get over it by simply starting to look at life differently. That is about as simplistic as thinking all an alcoholic has to do is stop drinking.

The truth about depression, is that it warps your sense of how your mind sees things. You can't reason with someone in the depths of depression because you are dealing with two separate realities, the one you live and the other that the depressive lives in. A depressive can be surrounded by loving people and still believe, in their own mind, that no one really cares. It is like living in a hallucination, only the depressive doesn't know it is a hallucination.

Because the depressive mind distorts reality, they live in a world of loneliness, sadness, guilt and every other negative emotion there is and the result is a shit ton of emotional pain. They suffer in a world that no one else can see and a world where the caring of others cannot reach through to them. And sometimes, sometimes that pain becomes so persistent and overwhelming is driven to the only source of relief they can find, by putting an end to it.

This is not meant to condone ending their lives, but no one ever would call someone, a cancer patient or another person who is in intense, unrelenting physical pain with no possible chance of relief, selfish or narcissistic if they sought to put an end to it. But when someone suicides and you lay that blame on them, it is because they have hurt you emotionally. You are saying that, in order to spare your emotional hurt, they should have continued have borne theirs, no matter how severe.

Again, this is not to condone depressives taking their own lives. But what we need to do, is to understand fully what is happening to them, mentally and physically, and then find a way to heal them. But that is not going to happen if we blame them for the pain we feel.

Posted by: Thresherman at October 13, 2019 03:14 PM (K7jrw)

75 I had a student, must have been about 20 years ago or so, who shot himself after work one night. His parents had just called and were on their way to pick him up and they were the ones who found him. They don't accept it and believe to this day that he was murdered. Here's the thing I want people to realize about this-he had been depressed about something for a while before he did it, but right before he shot himself everyone reported he seemed to have recovered. But the thing is that that can be a warning sign, because sometimes someone who is suicidal can seem happy because the decision to end it all can seem like a relief. So, I guess what I'm trying to say, is that you can't always tell when the crisis has passed and you have to watch carefully.

Posted by: 68W58 at October 13, 2019 03:20 PM (rYFmu)

76 On my knees in front of the cross for all who have dealt with this. Life is so precious. Always be ready to lisren to those in despair both in your family and friends and here!

Posted by: Sad Sock Monkey at October 13, 2019 03:26 PM (Z7dRV)

77 Posted by: Thresherman at October 13, 2019 03:14 PM (K7jrw)

This ^^^

Thank you!

Posted by: browndog at October 13, 2019 03:33 PM (bGMOs)

78 Minor note: B was my cousin, the eldest in the generation (I am the youngest), and she was close in age to my mom. She was a constant in my childhood, tough and kind and always took care of everyone. She took her own life by rope Thursday after two earlier medication overdoses earlier this year.

Posted by: Gingy at October 13, 2019 03:38 PM (AibNI)

79 Been quite a while since I posted at the HQ. WeirdDave, this is a good, and very necessary, essay. I had a brother-in-law die just about a year ago. The ME called it an overdose, but there was a guy with CPR training at the house where he died who gave it everything he had. The CPR guy told me he almost brought him back, but then he just didn't make it.

I've always thought my BiL looked at the new surroundings and said to himself, "Go back to my miserable existence, living in a sober house and cheating on it even after three stints in rehab, staring bankruptcy in the face with no job, a badly hurting body, the misery of three failed divorces, and near-zero chance of anything getting better? Nope, I'll roll the dice here. It can't be any worse."

We got a call from the police at roughly 2 A.M. The guys at the sober house gave them the number of his ex-wife, with whom he had three little kids, and they called her. She promptly proceeded to tell the police, "I'm his ex and I'm not related to him any more. Call these people (us) and let them deal with this." We ended up paying for the entire funeral since BiL died flat broke. The cherry on top of that sundae was that, while a bunch of people told us that they would help financially with the funeral, no one ever did. All they did was bitch about how they would have done it differently. Taught me a lot about what to expect from relatives and friends when things go bad. Hell, I sailed with people who would reach for their wallet faster to help me through a problem than my wife's blood relatives.

It could have been worse, I guess. He could have closed his eyes on the freeway and jammed the pedal to the metal or done something else to take his life that hurt another person in the process. Thank God none of his kids saw him dead with that needle in his arm.

Other than some of his kids and ex-wives wanting a chunk of what he left (which was nothing except some old clothes, music CDs, and a clapped-out motorcycle, the paucity of which caused them all to quickly lose interest), once he was gone it seems like almost no one ever thought (or thinks) about him anymore.

I miss him sometimes, and I remember that, when he was not on drugs and living the straight life, I enjoyed his company. Now I just shake my head and think that I wish he had never gone down the drug path. I also think that once he was as far down it as he was, he saw dying as really the only way out, and I understand how he could arrive at that viewpoint.

John Kay was right when he sang, "God-damn the pusher man," but nobody made my BiL stick that needle in his arm. It didn't have to be this way, but it is, and it is so because of his choices That said, it isn't my place to judge his actions. I sure do wish he hadn't thrown it all away, though, because sometimes I miss him a lot.

Posted by: mac at October 13, 2019 03:39 PM (PrOFJ)

80 I've been feeling that way lately. Useless and a burden.

Thanks for the reminder.

Posted by: Donna&&&&V. at October 13, 2019 03:51 PM (d6Ksn)

81 Suicide is the most selfish act you can perform. It destroys those people that you claim to care about, and for what? Do you have any guarantees that you aren't going to a place even worse than here?

Posted by: DFCtomm at October 13, 2019 04:21 PM (50gG9)

82 May God strengthen and comfort all those involved.

May God strengthen and comfort all those who think they are worthless. You are made by the Master's hand and are precious.

My fingers won't type anything else without tangling on the keyboard.

Posted by: GWB at October 13, 2019 04:28 PM (dDmj8)

83 I lost my little brother over a year ago to suicide. He hung himself from a tree with a dod leash. He could not hold down a job. Had four kids by two wives that could not stand him. He had gone to CA with a new drugged out gf. He never learned to cope without drugs or alcohol. From his early teens he had smoked marijuana or used whatever drug he could find. We all blamed ourselves because we thought we should have been able to stop him somehow. I realise now it wasn't even possible for me to stop his self destructive personality. He made the choices we all have to live with. I am still angry with him for what he did and what he failed to do. My mom is a wreck still. Sorry that suicide has struck again.

Posted by: usntakim at October 13, 2019 04:43 PM (0OmEj)

84
I don't share personal stuff online, but thank you for this post WD...

On to the Food Thread!

Posted by: Spun & Murky at October 13, 2019 04:45 PM (4DCSq)

85 All that and i have been on the other side as well being ill with a chronic progressive untreatable disease will cause one to ponder if it is worth going on. Thankfully I know that life is worth living if just for the sake of my family. I could never do that to them.even so i'm so very very tired. I have to go on even though I'll never get better losing a little tiny bit more everyday. That is what i bear i have no choice. Suicide is not painless neither is life.

Posted by: usntakim at October 13, 2019 04:54 PM (0OmEj)

86 "Suicide is the most selfish act you can perform."

It's what people do when the pain is so bad that they only want it to stop.

"It destroys those
people that you claim to care about, and for what?"

It's so the people you care about won't have to be burdened with you anymore - assuming they actually DO care, and aren't just being polite about it.
"Do you have any
guarantees that you aren't going to a place even worse than here?"

Of course not. But if the pain is so bad that you JUST WANT IT TO STOP, you're past caring.

Posted by: Annalucia at October 13, 2019 04:57 PM (S6ArX)

87 I've rarely seen such a disgraceful display of judgmental self-righteousness and outright selfishness on any forum I've ever read. One can scarcely detect any sympathy, let alone any real love or grief, for the persons who ended their lives. It's a virtually non-stop refrain of Me-Me-Me.

You should all just shut your mouths. You are not helping anyone at all.
The kinds of idiotic remarks seen on this thread (and in its article) are a perfect example of why suicidal people rarely talk to others around them. Because there is no one to talk to. Because all they ever do is chirp the same kind of conventional crapola this thread is chalk-full of.
It isn't all about you, no matter how hard you try to make it about you. It will never be about you.

Posted by: TooCon at October 13, 2019 05:00 PM (NFHrQ)

88 82. Amen

Posted by: JJP at October 13, 2019 05:05 PM (bOaXE)

89 WD, I will pray for the repose of the souls of those lost and for the comfort and consolation of your family. God bless you.

Posted by: Mrs. Leggy at October 13, 2019 05:19 PM (Vf4Y7)

90 So sorry, WeirdDave.

Maybe it's not a coincidence that we talked about mental health in church today. Suicide is such a devastating thing.

Posted by: KT at October 13, 2019 05:25 PM (BVQ+1)

91 The truth is that suicide ends it all for one person no matter the pain or illness or whatever the reason. Suicide also leaves behind pain and grief and anger and doubt and ruined lives. Yes you can have sympathy and empathy for the suicidal. And pray they get the the relief from whatever caused their pain. And hope and pray they get for given by G.d for making such a sinful and selfish choice. Everyone has their pain and cross to bear. Suicide is a selfish choice. Life is about choices and character and pain and joy. Suicide takes it all away.

Posted by: usntakim at October 13, 2019 05:34 PM (0OmEj)

92 And love suicide ends that too. Adds regret grief Pain. Suicide does more more to harm everyone and is not only selfish but evil.

Posted by: usntakim at October 13, 2019 05:42 PM (0OmEj)

93 Perhaps rarely, but at least sometimes, the person who chooses to die is making a point to personally punish or guilt someone else for something and take them along for the ride. There are no easy answers with suicides. But the common denominator is pain. The older I get the more I believe this although I will never understand what it must feel like.

Posted by: corn and beans at October 13, 2019 05:45 PM (tkNkP)

94 Please don't judge.

This is not a black and white issue.

Pray for each other and love a little stronger. It is NEVER anyone else's fault. It is what it is.

Endeavor to persevere.

Posted by: Nurse ratched at October 13, 2019 05:48 PM (PkVlr)

95 Perhaps rarely, but at least sometimes, the person who chooses to die is making a point to personally punish or guilt someone else for something and take them along for the ride.

Happened in my family when my alcoholic uncle took his life (running his car in a closed garage) to punish my aunt for being a nagging bitch. It was remarkably effective; she made the rest of the family miserable for years by repeatedly asking whether we thought she drove him to suicide. Nobody had the guts to tell her what we really thought.

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Posted by: ALEXANDER SAM at October 13, 2019 06:17 PM (Ak0lS)

97 Oh look, lace wigs has a new gig.

Posted by: Weirddave at October 13, 2019 06:20 PM (dhSJ3)

98 I disagree with you. My ex destroyed lives when she left me for her dogs and her new fuck toy. But mostly her dogs. She accuses me of harassment when I contact her to ask to see the kids. She destroyed me and my kids.

Fuck you for writing off the pain of the suicide. You don't know what is in our minds. Not all but many of those "destroyed" afterwards are virtue signalling and revelling in their newfound victimhood. They've just been awarded a badge of fucking honour.

I am sorry for your loss, but there was more pain in your cousin than just the miss with a girl. There was likely years of self loathing. There was years of pain and self hatred. Don't dismiss the kid as an ass. He was in pain.

Posted by: Lickmuffin at October 13, 2019 06:48 PM (m/owh)

99 First post on AOS, please be gentle.
I'm so sorry, WD. Thank you for writing what you did and bringing up the subject. My thoughts and prayers are with you. I lost my close friend to suicide 8 years ago, and it's still a raw spot. And I'd be lying if I said I didn't come *this* close to doing it myself when I was in the depths of my darkest years.

To those calling suicide selfish, I beg you--please don't. When the thought of ending it all actually begins to make sense to you, it's a sign of sickness, not selfishness.

Selfishness is a character flaw. Depression is an illness.



Posted by: DeeJay at October 13, 2019 06:56 PM (o/976)

100 Wish was a way to bookmark it for others to read

Posted by: Skip at October 13, 2019 07:28 PM (ZCEU2)

101 Choose Life is not just a trite saying, it's always the right thing to do.

Posted by: Dust In My Eyes I Swear at October 13, 2019 07:38 PM (Zx6uT)

102 87 at 5pm
Must be reading a different story,
Great post and comments
Heavy subject

Posted by: Summer of Love at October 13, 2019 07:57 PM (FJrl0)

103 Way late to post this, but to everyone who has lost someone this way may all of the Demons that haunt you and your loved ones be at peace.

Posted by: Picric at October 13, 2019 08:19 PM (nonGu)

104 I've been on both sides of this issue.

I'm a lifelong depressive. 60 plus years of almost daily suicidal thoughts, even during relatively good times. After so many years, it becomes more of a mental exercise, like some people "fantasy shop" with their imaginary lottery winnings. I doubt I will ever take the final leap, because I never have despite sincere and deep desire to do so for fucking ever. Even at the bottom of my personal pit of despair there is always a sliver of hope that somehow something might get better. Tomorrow. Maybe next week. If I'm already dead, I will have blown that chance. So I don't.

For those saying it is a selfish and narcissistic act, have you considered that putting YOUR pain and hurt above that of the person in so much pain that he will end his life is just a teeeeensy bit self centred as well? Just a little tiny einsy weinsy bit of narcissism in that hierarchy of pain?

I little bit of compassion for those whose thought patterns and emotions you do not understand or, it seems, empathise with would surely go a long way.

Posted by: gizmo at October 13, 2019 08:55 PM (HkNGo)

105 Hope it's not too late to post this.... just stumbled across a story about Jeremy Miller, an Army veterans from Idaho who is walking across America to raise awareness of suicide among veterans.

Miller started walking in California in May and his destination is Arlington National Cemetery. Right now he's in mid-Missouri headed down US 50 toward St. Louis. You can follow him and support his cause on his Facebook page:

https://www.facebook.com/walkacrossamerica22/

Posted by: Secret Square at October 13, 2019 09:06 PM (9WuX0)

106 It passes, the impulse. Survived a suicide attempt myself, and I can tell you that the urge DOES pass.
What I needed was a conscious contact with God, and thank God, I did end up getting that.

Suggestion: Find a good solid congregation of believers (not Leftists), and every morning, whether you believe or not, say this prayer: "God, please reveal Yourself to me."

Then go about your day, and keep your eyes open.
God bless!

Posted by: Beverly at October 13, 2019 09:26 PM (zNr+M)

107 Again, this is not to condone depressives taking their own lives. But what we need to do, is to understand fully what is happening to them, mentally and physically, and then find a way to heal them. But that is not going to happen if we blame them for the pain we feel.

Posted by: Thresherman at October 13, 2019 03:14 PM

Thank you for stating all that you said in your post. It was spot-on for how I have felt since my teenage years (I am now almost 44). Reading a lot of the comments here basically blaming the depressive person and thinking that all it takes to overcome depression is to just talk to someone and think about things differently... it was disheartening.

People really don't know what depression feels like unless they have gone through it. But your description of it as being like your mind is warped and you're seeing things in a different reality is well stated. That has been the case for me at times throughout the years. But at other times, I have felt like I see things perfectly clearly and there's really no way to fix things and nothing is ever going to get better.

To use the analogy someone posted above about feeling like those people in the Tower on 9/11 and making the choice of whether to burn to death or jump... now imagine feeling that way and then reading people say that if you jump, you're a selfish coward.

Not everyone going through depression is in the same situation. Not everyone who is depressed would be leaving anyone behind if they decided to commit suicide. So to label everyone as the same and treat everyone's situation as the same is ignorant.

Posted by: Clyde Shelton at October 13, 2019 09:27 PM (Do5/p)

108 I met a man and his wife in a ski resort in Vermont two years ago. They were table hopping and my friend struck up a conversation. He was an odd one: attractive guy, in his fifties; his wife had a diamond engagement ring the size of a doorknob and they seemed wealthy.
Five months later, my friend called me in shock. (She had struck up a friendship with the wife.)
This couple's maid had come to their mansion in Connecticut and discovered the wife dead -- shotgun blast; their teenage DAUGHTER dead, same thing, and the murderer? the husband and father.
Also dead of a shotgun blast. The bastard couldn't just shoot himself and leave his wife and his young daughter out of it -- the ultimate narcissist/sociopath.
And they had a son, 20 years old: the police had to call the poor kid at college and tell him this.
Can you imagine????

Posted by: Beverly at October 13, 2019 09:34 PM (zNr+M)

109 Because the depressive mind distorts reality, they live in a world of loneliness, sadness, guilt and every other negative emotion there is and the result is a shit ton of emotional pain. They suffer in a world that no one else can see and a world where the caring of others cannot reach through to them. And sometimes, sometimes that pain becomes so persistent and overwhelming is driven to the only source of relief they can find, by putting an end to it.

Posted by: Thresherman at October 13, 2019 03:14 PM

I cannot express how spot-on this is as to how I have felt over the years.

Another thing that people who have not suffered from depression do not understand is that it is not that easy to just "say something" or "go talk to someone". Talking to someone with depression isn't just about trying to "cheer them up" or something. Those with serious depression are definitely feeling a lot of emotional pain and, at least for me, it's never been superficial (had a bad date, girlfriend dumped me, etc.).

I've found out from experience that no matter how good a friend or how close a family member, the majority of people don't want to deal with something so serious.

Cheer you up on a bad day? Sure. Cheer you up after a bad break-up? Sure. Get you back to good after losing your job and going through unemployment? Sure.

But tell someone you're depressed and have contemplated suicide... the look on people's faces changes immediately and they will never look at you the same again. Some will see you as weak. Some will see you as if you are an alien. Some will get completely uncomfortable around you and not be able to talk to you normally again.

And that's why it's not that easy to "just say something". When you're living in a seemingly alternate reality of depression, you want something, anything to remain "normal". You don't want to lose the basic parts of your life keeping the rest of your sanity there. But that all goes away once you say something to someone.

Posted by: Clyde Shelton at October 13, 2019 09:37 PM (Do5/p)

110 Posted by: TooCon at October 13, 2019 05:00 PM

These were my exact thoughts after first reading the post and many of the comments. But I decided to just walk away from my computer and not comment.

Thankfully came back to read the comments of Thresherman and gizmo that allowed me to realize not everyone here is judgmental and ignorant.

Posted by: Clyde Shelton at October 13, 2019 09:46 PM (Do5/p)

111 I am sorry for your loss, but there was more pain in your cousin than just the miss with a girl. There was likely years of self loathing. There was years of pain and self hatred. Don't dismiss the kid as an ass. He was in pain.

You commit the same sin which you are railing against, the sin of assumption. Yes, C was in pain. The normal pain of being dumped for someone else. The kind of pain that we've all gone through and survived. How do I know this? The evil cunt was on the phone with him goading him on when he did it. It was an impulse act, the ultimate "fuck you", and I guarantee that if someone had been with him at the moment and said "Stop! WTF do you think you're doing?" he would have blinked and said "Woah. WTF did I just almost do?"

The other case was someone who felt old and useless. She said as much after her first attempt.

Now I'm not making blanket statements about all suicides, I'm sure there are as many reasons as they are people involved. I'm also aware that nothing may help some people with major depressive or brain chemical issues. But just because some people won't be helped by a message of love and support doesn't mean that no people will be helped by it, and frankly I'm happy to count any people this kind of thing does reach as a win.

Posted by: Weirddave at October 13, 2019 09:53 PM (sJVeL)

112 You are correct and I apologise. Please delete my comments, as in retrospect they add nothing here. Again, my apologies and condolences.

Posted by: Lickmuffin at October 13, 2019 09:58 PM (wi3lx)

113 Lickmuffin (I want to know the story behind THAT name), It's fine, I'm not angry and it is a touchy subject. I don't want you to think that I was discounting people who deal with situations like yours. I can't even imagine what it's like to live that way, you have my empathy.

It's not true that your comments added nothing, so I'm disinclined to delete them. Other people have echoed them, after all, and they serve the valuable purpose of reminding us that all situations are different. People can be cruel and unthinking with the best of intentions, it's probably best to focus on those intentions, rather than on specific statements that are inapplicable in a specific case or unintentionally hurtful.

I'm glad to have you here, thank you for your input. You're right, my OP is not applicable to your situation. I wish I knew what was. The grace and forgiveness of God through his son Jesus has worked wonders for many, if appropriate, I would pray that it helps you. If not that, then I hope something else does. Peace brother.

Posted by: Weirddave at October 13, 2019 10:17 PM (sJVeL)

114 WD, thank you for sharing. You and your family are in my prayers.

Posted by: KungPow at October 13, 2019 10:28 PM (DcPfA)

115 WeirdDave and TooCon, sorry for the me-me-me. I think we all know someone who committed suicide, and we are left wondering what we could have done or said differently.

Posted by: roamingfirehydrant at October 13, 2019 10:31 PM (THS4q)

116 Just like every person, every suicide is different. Almost everyone knows someone who has been scarred by its effects even if they haven't had someone close to them succumb.
I had trouble with deep depression, paranoia and suicide ideation last summer due to the side effects of medication that had been prescribed to treat a brainstem stroke caused by cancer. It is truly shocking how powerful the urge to suicide can be. I had NO IDEA until it happened to me. It was only by the grace of God that I was able to live through it. I was completely powerless to resist and my paranoia kept me from asking for help from any other human being.
I am convinced that my guardian angel heard my daily prayer for help and led me to see that I needed to stop taking the medication that was responsible. Why did I get help and not others? I have no idea other than I asked and it was given.
But I guarantee that if one human had given me the slightest opportunity or suggestion that I should have suicided that would have happened. I don't know that I would have been in a place to accept help from even my husband of 40 years due to the paranoia.

All we can do is be as kind as we can, help each other as we are able, and trust that whatever happens God will turn it to good.

Posted by: Just Lily at October 13, 2019 10:38 PM (rw1l7)

117 A friend killed himself years ago. I can't address it properly. He was a dear friend, and I love him, but he shot himself. He shot my friend. I hate him for that. I hate him so much for that.

Posted by: Ben at October 14, 2019 12:08 AM (V5Nqj)

118 116 Just like every person, every suicide is different. Almost everyone knows someone who has been scarred by its effects even if they haven't had someone close to them succumb."

This is a very important point, easy to forget. I am fortunate to not be prone to depression myself, but I have lived with those who have, and as a result I've become very familiar with it. True mental illness is a very consuming thing, and it is almost impossible to grasp if you've never been in close contact with it. As stated above, there are *some* who commit suicide for reasons of revenge, or anger, or narcissism; but there are a great many more who get lost in a world of mental illness that they cannot see any possible way out of, and the rules of perspective and proportion that apply in our world do not operate at all in that world. I've been around it enough to feel great pity for those who for whatever reason become lost in it.

Another issue I see in the comments above is that there are two separate groups of sufferers - there are those who, because of their own suffering feel driven to kill themselves, and there are those who survive and who are left behind in pain. Of course they feel anger at the source of their suffering, and there's also a piece of human psychology called survivor's guilt, which always and especially comes into play when something like this happens. (there's nothing pejorative about this, it's a response built into all of us whether we like to acknowledge it or not) It's natural to be furious at the person who put you in that situation. Those who are driven to suicide deserve pity, but those who survive need support, and they need to be able to talk to other survivors, because there is comfort in knowing that you're not alone in what you felt, and still feel.

Posted by: Tom Servo at October 14, 2019 01:17 AM (V2Yro)

119 First, I'm so sorry for the pain you're going through a second time. I'm not a praying man but I'll pray for both your family and your wife's tonight.

Second thank you for your honesty. I respect your willingness to share this pain with the world.

The truth is, our lives are not our own to do whatever the heck we feel like doing with them. We don't belong to ourselves. We belong to the people who love us, and we need to honor their claims over us. Most especially when we feel like our lives don't matter.

Posted by: Ernst Schreiber at October 14, 2019 01:22 AM (xmKbk)

120 117 A friend killed himself years ago. I can't address it properly. He was a dear friend, and I love him, but he shot himself. He shot my friend. I hate him for that. I hate him so much for that.
Posted by: Ben at October 14, 2019 12:08 AM (V5Nqj)

I appreciate your saying this. It's very heartfelt.

Posted by: m at October 14, 2019 02:54 AM (I9xeT)

121 "All of those people that you think will be better off without you? Yeah, you just destroyed them. For the rest of their lives they will bear the indelible stain of your decision on their hearts. Fifteen years later, for a cousin I honestly hardly knew, it still breaks my heart. You're not letting them off the hook, you're shoving the hook through the center of their chest and hanging them from it. Forever. Please don't."

long time lurker, first time poster. Never read anything (outside the Gospels) more true in my life.

Brought tears to my eyes. Thirty years ago, my older brother.

Posted by: gjsmith at October 14, 2019 02:10 PM (3c8Su)

122 Dave, you've spoken more eloquently on the topic than anyone I've ever seen. As a doc, I've had to stand over a sheet draped body and try and help more families than I care to remember make some sort of goddam sense out of a clearly nonsensical death. I've never been able to. My personal feeling, the one I've never shared with any of those families, is that suicide is the ultimate act of aggression. There can be no payback. There can be no retribution. There can be no comeuppance. The suicider took their confrontation nuclear, and no one left behind can do a damned thing about it.

Posted by: DocAnvil at October 14, 2019 03:20 PM (Kpksc)

123 My theory is that these suicidal people are lashing out at God himself -- more-or-less: "Damn you God, I'm in pain, I've prayed to you, I've begged you, I've hoped in and believed all the stupid promises in your stupid Book, and nothing is better, nothing's getting better, nothing's GOING to get better. Here, take your "glorious miracle of life" back, because I can't stand living it any more".

You've all read about trapped animals who chew their foot off to escape from the trap, right? I would guess that suicidal people are just about that frantic to escape the trap they feel they're in.

The only thing the rest of us can do is pray for peace and healing for those left behind in this world, as well as for those who have gone ahead to whatever the next life is.

Posted by: Doo-Dah, Doo-Dah at October 15, 2019 09:11 AM (mfj2N)

124 I am truly sorry for your loss, WD.

Posted by: Cold Civil War at October 16, 2019 03:40 PM (Z2PYk)

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