Gun Thread: Handloading and Accuracy as a Training Tool [Weasel]

It's Rocket Surgery!

Last week we started a discussion on reloading and some of the benefits shooters realize from assembling their own ammunition. Topics included reloading as a hobby, reloading as a necessity, and finally reloading as a way to improve consistency and accuracy. This week I thought it would be fun to take a little closer look at ammunition consistency, how it's measured, and how it benefits the shooter. Lets do that now, shall we?

Before we get started, and before I get all carried away, let's acknowledge there are varying levels of reloading sophistication depending on the experience of the reloader and the intended use for the ammunition. For the purpose of this general discussion, let's assume the methods and techniques are at the introductory or beginner level.

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Shooting isn't particularly difficult; if you fire exactly the same weight bullet at exactly the same speed in exactly the same conditions without moving the gun even a teeensy little bit, the bullets will arrive at the same place on target. I'm not sure why you guys make this so complicated.

In shooting there are some elements you can control and others you cannot. Anytime you eliminate a variable, or a potential cause of inconsistency, you're doing yourself an enormous favor with regard to improving your accuracy. You've probably heard me preach the wonders and joy of consistency in ammunition, and it's because consistency is a requirement for accuracy.

Reloaders purchase four basic components; cases, primers, bullets and powder, and assemble them using specialized tools to make loaded ammunition. At the most basic level, the reloader influences the quality of the finished product by carefully choosing and assembling high quality components. Probably the most critical factors under the reloader's control is the selection of an appropriate powder, carefully measuring it into each prepared case and then precisely seating the bullet to achieve the desired velocity results.

Once you have assembled your ammunition, how do you test it for consistency? One way is to look at the target and assess the size of a fired group. Let's say you do this and the holes are all over the place - do you just suck as a shooter, or is it perhaps your ammo that's making you look bad?

Defining and Measuring Consistency
Muzzle velocity is the performance metric used to compare the consistency of one round to another. Several rounds with very similar velocities have a better chance of grouping together than several rounds with widely varying velocities. All other things being equal, inconsistent powder charges and bullet seating depth lead to velocity excursions and potentially inconsistent results on the target. The penalty for inconsistent velocity increases proportionately with distance, where the effects of varibly performing ammunition are magnified the longer the bullet remains in flight. You can take wildly different ammo and it will make some kind of group at very close range, but as the distance increases, so will the group size.

How do you define consistency?
Sooooo... what is an acceptable velocity excursion? It's a point of pride among reloaders, and for handguns it's generally assumed a variance or extreme spread (ES) of 50 fps or less in a 5 round group is acceptable for distances at which handguns are used. Extreme spread is simply the difference in the velocities of the fastest and slowest rounds in a set. Consistency below 50 fps is difficult to isolate against other factors on target and inconsistency above that level results in an unacceptable variability on target. For rifle ammunition, a much greater degree of consistency is required. For long range shooting, an ES of perhaps 15 fps or lower is required for good accuracy. To achieve this degree of consistency involves a significant amount of time and advanced reloading techniques beyond the scope of this discussion.

Extreme Spread vs. Standard Deviation
Why do I use extreme spread as a metric rather than standard deviation? In short, ES represents what will show up on tagret due to actual velocity excursions, where the statistical metric of standard deviation describes the characteristics of a sample group as a whole.

So how is muzzle velocity measured?
To measure the speed of a bullet you need a device called a chronograph, and there have been considerable improvements with these devices in recent years. Back in the olden days, a chronograph measured velocity by recording time data and making computations as a bullet passed through "screens" atop a device located a short distance downrange. The devices were notoriously finicky, but had tremendous humor potential when someone at the range inadverdantly shoots their chronograph and pieces of it are flying everywhere from the bullet impact. Cost is about $100.

Old School Chronograph

Next came a solution which consisted of a bayonet gizmo that strapped onto the end of the barrel and recorded the passage of the bullet magnetically. Tragically, the humor value was mostly lost with the new style, but the accuracy and relative ease of use improved considerably. Also, use of this type with handguns was problematic, and it was still a little bit of hassle to set up. Additionally, some say barrel harmonics are affected by attaching the device at the muzzle which thereby influences velocity and point of impact. Cost of this type start around $200 (and up with options). I will tell you I first used with this type and have tested it against more expensive models with surprisingly close results.

Magnetospeed Chronograph Sporter Model

Finally, the personal doppler radar was born with the introduction of the Labradar chronograph. This thing is slicker than a chicken with a bad haircut, and if you're serious about reloading and external ballistics, this is the device for you. If you are a rifle competitor, it's almost a necessity. It has a ton of features and is worth consideration if you are in the market for a chronograph. It is simple to setup and use, measures everything from handguns to arrows (no kidding) and is extremely accurate. Cost is around $550.

Labradar Chronograph

Gun Thread Ammo Test!

Labradar at Work

So now that we have working thresholds for accuracy, how do some commercial ammunition brands hold up? I grabbed some examples in various calibers from home, headed for the farm, and set up the chronograph. For each type I fired and recorded velocity extreme spread for 3 groups of 5 rounds each, as follows:

Load Tested	Caliber	ES	ES	ES
GA Arms 115gr	9mm	52	32	36
PMC Bronze	.357	35	30	64
GA Arms 185 gr	.45ACP	25	66	38
American Eagle 55gr	5.56mm	62	55	64
Federal Gold Medal Match 168gr	.308 Win	31	29	30

Results
Well will you looky there. Some surprises, huh? In most cases, there was at least one set way out of whack. If you were to examine the individual shots that comprise a group, you will find one of two things; a cluster around a common velocity with one oddball way out of the group, or just a random distribution across the spread. In the first case, the one oddball is the "flier" that inexplicably shows up on target and ruins an otherwise good group. In the second case, there is no obvious single spoiler, just a generally looser group performance. One note about single oddball shots - they may not always be the result of a velocity excursions, and are sometimes caused by a goofy bullet. More on this in a future thread.

How do handloads compare?
I don't claim to be the greatest reloader in the world, but a normal batch of my .38 Special handloads has an ES of around 25 fps. My rifle match ammunition consistently has an ES of about 7 fps, but I go to some fairly extraordinary lengths to achieve that.

Does any of this really matter?
That's up to you. I am using very round numbers here, but two 115 gr 9mm bullets with a 50 fps difference in velocity will see a vertical dispersion of about 1/4" at 50 yards. I don't know about you, but I sure can't hold 1/4" with a handgun at 50 yards. Having said that, I also don't need my ammo contributing to my own shaky performance. I think in the case of normal handgun shooting, the benefit of reloading is mostly gained from the hobby and ammo availability aspects rather than purely from an accuracy perspective. In the case of rifle shooting, and competitive rifle shooting in particular, reloading is a must.

For casual rifle shooting, the Federal Gold Medal Match ammo is what I usually recommend to people. It comes nowhere close to handload performance, but is consistent by commercial ammo standards. To illustrate, the 30 fps velocity spread shown above in a .308 at 1,000 yards equals almost 7 1/2 inches at the target. That's a huge miss by competitive standards but not bad by commercial standards.

The numbers for American Eagle 5.56mm look terrible on paper, but for plinking a steel plate at 100 - 200 yards, it's a good value. I can spend a very enjoyable afternoon at the farm plinking steel with this, and it's a great example of matching ammo to your intended use. Why use your best handloads or expensive commercial ammo when you're just passing the time on the range, and a high level of accuracy isn't of paramount importance?

Accuracy as a Training Tool
As newer shooters become more experienced, they are sometimes frustrated when their progress shooting increasingly tighter groups seems to stall, or worse, the groups start getting bigger. First of all, relax. A bad day at the range happens to everyone now and then. But as proficiency increases and the progress seems to slow, what they may actually be seeing is the accuracy limits inherent in the ammunition being used. For new shooters in any discipline I think it is particularly important to use the very best ammunition available. That does not necessarily always mean handloads, but especially cheap "bargain" type ammo is probably a bad idea when a shooter is still developing their skills and needs the most accurate feedback possible to continue improving.

What do you all think?

Do you agree or disagree with my assessment of accuracy in handgun reloads - does 50 fps seem reasonable?

For our competitors, are you handloading or shooting commercial ammo?

For those of you measuring velocities, have you ever had a situation where a load's performance looks terrible on paper but happens to shoot very well?

How about ammunition recommendations for new shooters - do you agree with the opinion to have them shooting the best possible ammunition, or is economy more important?

*******
Link-O-Rama
Magnetospeed Chronograph
Magnetospeed Videos
LabRadar Chronograph
LabRadar Video
GA Arms - Hurry! This Weekend Free Shipping!
Scott Duff Publications: Add to your Shooting Library
Shooting Sports USA Article: Point Shooting
Shooting Sports USA Article: Target Perception

***Mail Bag***

In our discussion last week regarding the benefits of reloading, I didn't do a very good job including the fact that for some shooters, particularly competitive shooters, reloading is their only option for sourcing ammunition. These "wildcat" shooters have weapons chambered in calibers for which ammo simply isn't produced by commercial manufacturers. Our pal TBone bitch-slapped me with some knowledge which I had to pass along.

.38/.45 Clerke reloads courtesy TBone

TBone sez:

Regarding nonstandard loads, in IPSC shooting you are awarded more points for non "A" zone hits if you are shooting what are known as "Major" loads. A major load is one in which the bullet weight x velocity / 1000 = 165 or better. In the case of 9mm, there are no commercial loads which attain this power factor so you must handload your cartridges, and have a gun with a fully supported chamber.
The .38/.45 Clerke (pronounced "clark"), is a wildcat semi auto pistol cartridge developed by Bo Clerke and introduced in Guns & Ammo in 1963. It is essentially a .45 ACP case, necked down to .357, resulting in a cartridge similar in form to the earlier 7.65 Parabellum (used in the Borschardt Pistol), and 7.63 Mauser cartridges, (used in the "Broomhandle" Mauser pistols). It was created to be a low recoil target cartridge that would function reliably with multiple bullet types, FMJ to cast lead wadcutters without the feeding problems that straight walled pistol rounds sometimes exhibit. The cartridge can be used in standard .45 ACP magazines. The reason for using cut- down .45 win mag cases is to get the thicker case down at the web area, to reduce the possibility of blown cases when trying to soup up this cartridge in a gun with an un-supported chamber.

TBone's STI Race Gun

TBone goes on to add:

The pistol is a custom STI 2011 from JV Industries LLC. Commonly known as a "Race Gun" it is built in ".355 Lightning" caliber. This pistol is designed to use high powered 9mm cartridges, and is optimized for low recoil while still using a round that makes IPSC "major" caliber. The compensator, red dot, and extended mag put this gun in "open" class. IPSC shooting is a fast, dynamic, shooting sport that places emphasis on fast, accurate shooting. Each target is scored, penalties are deducted, and the resulting score is then divided by the time it took to shoot the stage.

Very impressive, TBone! Thanks for sharing!

*************

Please note the new and improved gmail account morongunthread at gmail dot com. If you have a question you would like to ask Gun Thread Staff offline, just send us a note and we'll do our best to answer. If you care to share the story of your favorite firearm, send a picture with your nic and tell us what you sadly lost in the tragic canoe accident. If you would like to remain completely anonymous, just say so. Lurkers are always welcome!

That's it for this week - have you been to the range?

Posted by: Open Blogger at 07:01 PM

Comments

(Jump to bottom of comments)

1 Just in time

Posted by: RI Red at March 31, 2019 07:02 PM (wBaKQ)

2 bang!

Posted by: redc1c4 at March 31, 2019 07:02 PM (rf8q9)

3 Well so much for the no math part of the blog...

Posted by: Anna Puma at March 31, 2019 07:02 PM (13pSq)

4 now, would everyone please clam up about sea food?

Posted by: redc1c4 at March 31, 2019 07:02 PM (rf8q9)

5 And my first sponge in a while.

Posted by: RI Red at March 31, 2019 07:03 PM (wBaKQ)

6 Not sure what all that blank space above the table is about. Sorry!

Posted by: Weasel at March 31, 2019 07:05 PM (MVjcR)

7 Maths!
Head hurts....

Posted by: navybrat swimming upstream at March 31, 2019 07:05 PM (w7KSn)

8 Hello!

Posted by: ALH at March 31, 2019 07:06 PM (8wKjk)

9 Quiet day on all threads. Must be the bball games. Baseball and basketball.

Posted by: never enough caffeine at March 31, 2019 07:07 PM (N3JsI)

10 What is this? Math Sunday?

Posted by: Skip at March 31, 2019 07:07 PM (BbGew)

11 put a picture in it!

Posted by: redc1c4 at March 31, 2019 07:07 PM (rf8q9)

12 put a picture in it!

Posted by: redc1c4 at March 31, 2019 07:07 PM (rf8q9)
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I'm scairt! It's not showing up in the HTML, and I don't want to kill the blog.

Posted by: Weasel at March 31, 2019 07:09 PM (MVjcR)

13 Now, to read content. BRB.

Posted by: RI Red at March 31, 2019 07:09 PM (wBaKQ)

14 I denounce myself because when I first read the title I thought this was gonna be some kind of riff on drag queens at NASA.

Posted by: Bildo at March 31, 2019 07:10 PM (+Rf4+)

15 MSU beat Duke!

Posted by: Mikey NTH - The Outrage Outlet Says Build the Colossus Of Trump! at March 31, 2019 07:10 PM (0QYMt)

16 i say use cheap ammo when starting out: build muscle memory and basic skills first, then move up to better ammo when it will make a difference.

you'll never get the basics down if it's too expensive to practice them enough.

Posted by: redc1c4 at March 31, 2019 07:11 PM (rf8q9)

17 I knew a guy once who was a major load.

What are those hieroglyphics at the top? There seems to be some numbers involved.

Posted by: freaked at March 31, 2019 07:12 PM (UdKB7)

18 Pantload, that is.

Posted by: freaked at March 31, 2019 07:12 PM (UdKB7)

19 "That's it for this week - have you been to the range?"
******
The range is ion my backyard. We shoot a lot.

Posted by: Cosda at March 31, 2019 07:12 PM (Q4Dpp)

20 I'm scairt! It's not showing up in the HTML, and I don't want to kill the blog.

Posted by: Weasel at March 31, 2019 07:09 PM (MVjcR)

---
pussy:

we'll just blame nurse ratchet...

Posted by: redc1c4 at March 31, 2019 07:12 PM (rf8q9)

21 woodpecker better GFO now, or pay the consequences.

gun thread is here, and nurse is annoyed with you.

bad combination, woodpecker.

Posted by: LeftCoast Dawg at March 31, 2019 07:12 PM (sy5kK)

22 Shooting isn't particularly difficult; if you fire exactly the same weight bullet at exactly the same speed in exactly the same conditions without moving the gun even a teeensy little bit, the bullets will arrive at the same place on target. I'm not sure why you guys make this so complicated.

No idea.

Posted by: Overheated Barrels at March 31, 2019 07:13 PM (fuK7c)

23 16 i say use cheap ammo when starting out: build muscle memory and basic skills first, then move up to better ammo when it will make a difference.

you'll never get the basics down if it's too expensive to practice them enough.

Posted by: redc1c4 at March 31, 2019 07:11 PM (rf8q9)
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I don't really disagree, but think it's important to make to make the switch to the best available pretty early in the process.

Posted by: Weasel at March 31, 2019 07:13 PM (MVjcR)

24 I know a guy works for NASA, he would unnerstand that there graph and dem dere maths...

Posted by: navybrat swimming upstream at March 31, 2019 07:14 PM (w7KSn)

25 Glad Duke lost

Posted by: Skip at March 31, 2019 07:14 PM (BbGew)

26 How do shooters account for gravity over long distances (the bullet dropping)? Is it significant over 1000 yards?

Posted by: Ignoramus at March 31, 2019 07:16 PM (1UZdv)

27 pussy:

we'll just blame nurse ratchet...

Posted by: redc1c4 at March 31, 2019 07:12 PM (rf8q9)
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Agreed! Its all the damn hammering!

I'll ax CBD to take a look at it if he's around because it's bugging me. Didn't show up in preview mode. Something in the table HTML is causing it. I think.

Posted by: Weasel at March 31, 2019 07:17 PM (MVjcR)

28 Feeelz story of the day, Arizona homeowner plugs two burglars, kills one.

http://tinyurl.com/y3wnmthj

Posted by: navybrat swimming upstream at March 31, 2019 07:17 PM (w7KSn)

29 that math is how Obama instructed NASA to make America more accommodating to Muslims.

Posted by: LeftCoast Dawg at March 31, 2019 07:18 PM (sy5kK)

30 That looks suspiciously like math.
I'm out of my league.

Posted by: Winston a dreg of society at March 31, 2019 07:19 PM (5U303)

31 How do shooters account for gravity over long distances (the bullet dropping)? Is it significant over 1000 yards?

Posted by: Ignoramus at March 31, 2019 07:16 PM (1UZdv)

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tracers help...

there's a thing called holdover.

of course, if you're firing from an M-1, the gunnery computer does all that for you, as well as sensing the crosswind.

Posted by: redc1c4 at March 31, 2019 07:19 PM (rf8q9)

32 OH HELL NO!

That was my first thought when I saw the whiteboard of math up there.

then I thought maybe I might understand some of it, and then it wasn't relevant.

Lucky me.

Cheap ammo if you've got a short range or a red dot scope. Costs less to practice and you're not going to shoot out the center of anything with a red dot.
Most gun morons have good sense, and probably do a good job of cost/benefit analysis for their own needs.

Posted by: OneEyedJack at March 31, 2019 07:19 PM (z79tQ)

33 26 How do shooters account for gravity over long distances (the bullet dropping)? Is it significant over 1000 yards?

Posted by: Ignoramus at March 31, 2019 07:16 PM (1UZdv)
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Yes. It's significant. The bullet begins to drop as soon as it leaves the barrel. There are all sorts of ballistic computers to compute the necessary barrel elevation above the horizontal depending on the bullet weight, velocity and distance to target..

Posted by: Weasel at March 31, 2019 07:20 PM (MVjcR)

34 Great work Weasel! Very informative....

A fella at the range not too long ago explained to me that differences in velocity can result in rounds impacting higher or lower at a KD range.

On a happy note, My 1939 Nambu Type 14 shot great last week. Very accurate, nice grip and the sights are easy to pick up and place. Bad points are mushy trigger, magazine is the hold open and scarce ammo.

I am just glad she worked fine and as an oldie she can rest a bit before I shoot her again.

Posted by: Hairyback Guy at March 31, 2019 07:20 PM (Z+IKu)

35 I shoot commercial loads in my 1911. PMC Bronze 230 grain FMJ. Pretty much the same specs the 1911 was originally built for. PMC 45 acp is considered "soft shooting" ammunition. Ammo tends to be a bit dirty but the consistency has been off the charts. I buy in 1K lots, which keeps cost down. I can usually find 1K rounds of PMC shipped for about .32 a round.

For me, when I'm shooting IDPA or Steel Challenge, reliability is key.

Posted by: Blake - used vacation salesman at March 31, 2019 07:21 PM (WEBkv)

36 If better than average accuracy is the goal not switching will dampen your spirits I would think.
A lifetime ago had halfer with a guy on a reloaded, we did it just for a cheaper way to shoot. It was a quality machine that spun around and did each step of the process.

Posted by: Skip at March 31, 2019 07:22 PM (BbGew)

37 So much content, so much knowledge.
I had a good day with some new loads at the range this week. All shots were within .25" of centerline at 100 yds, but vertical dispersion was 2". And I thought I'd done a great job with powder weight and seating depth.
Back to the lab.

Posted by: RI Red at March 31, 2019 07:22 PM (wBaKQ)

38 Yes. It's significant. The bullet begins to drop as soon as it leaves the barrel. There are all sorts of ballistic computers to compute the necessary barrel elevation above the horizontal depending on the bullet weight, velocity and distance to target..
Posted by: Weasel at March 31, 2019 07:20 PM (MVjcR)

I watched an instructional video where it was said that a bullet drops at speed like you drop it from your hand. It'll take the same amount of time to hit earth, so the faster your bullet comes out the barrel, the further it'll go before you have to start holding over. (the ground)

Posted by: OneEyedJack at March 31, 2019 07:23 PM (z79tQ)

39 went to the range with Mark yesterday.

It was a fucking rough week. My youngest buried a classmate. 19 yo kid.

So, the funeral was on Friday afternoon. Saturday morning I was a the range.

The focus, the calm, the breathing and the cause/effect were amazingly theraputic. I left feeling centered, calm and ready to be a support for my kiddos. I get it.

And my Rock Island 1911 is sooooo nice. I also landed 97/100 shots well inside the 9 with Mark's Ruger.

Very good day at the range.

Posted by: nurse ratched at March 31, 2019 07:23 PM (PkVlr)

40 In Commiefornia you better reload because your government is counting every round you buy new.

Posted by: torabora at March 31, 2019 07:24 PM (85cCi)

41 I love shooting and my guns but I'm not at the gun smithing and reloading level of love.

Posted by: Can't resist temptation at March 31, 2019 07:24 PM (2DOZq)

42 Posted by: RI Red at March 31, 2019 07:22 PM (wBaKQ)
------
How solid was the rear bag setup? Whenever I see vertical dispersion in a load I have tested and which I know has performed well, I suspect something is going on with the rear bag.

Posted by: Weasel at March 31, 2019 07:25 PM (MVjcR)

43 gravity hates me

Posted by: .22LR at March 31, 2019 07:25 PM (sy5kK)

44 STI! Whoohoo, look at you, T-Bone! I want to touch it, and by touch it I mean run a couple hundred rounds through it.

Posted by: Eromero at March 31, 2019 07:25 PM (qBNEP)

45 40 In Commiefornia you better reload because your government is counting every round you buy new.
Posted by: torabora at March 31, 2019 07:24 PM (85cCi)
------------

Not yet. July 1.

I will be stocking up well before then.

Posted by: Blake - used vacation salesman at March 31, 2019 07:25 PM (WEBkv)

46 [very high falsetto] Guns are for people with tiny penises. I'm sure one of your proper-thinking progressive family members has already informed you of this irrefutable fact.

Posted by: Brian Stelter at March 31, 2019 07:26 PM (3Nagy)

47 Last chance for Federal rebates on 5.56 ammo. Both Natchez and Palmetto have free shipping as well. Net cost delivered on 62 grain penetrator is around .22 per round. Great deal.

Posted by: Agitator at March 31, 2019 07:26 PM (rd4+I)

48 39 went to the range with Mark yesterday.

It was a fucking rough week. My youngest buried a classmate. 19 yo kid.

So, the funeral was on Friday afternoon. Saturday morning I was a the range.

The focus, the calm, the breathing and the cause/effect were amazingly theraputic. I left feeling centered, calm and ready to be a support for my kiddos. I get it.

And my Rock Island 1911 is sooooo nice. I also landed 97/100 shots well inside the 9 with Mark's Ruger.

Very good day at the range.

Posted by: nurse ratched at March 31, 2019 07:23 PM (PkVlr)

FLY AWAY!

Posted by: zombie Dave Niehaus, giving a certain West Seattle sage advice at March 31, 2019 07:27 PM (sy5kK)

49 Range yesterday. Raining and cold. Have a 308 with about 10k rounds through it. Shot two 5-shot groups 0.55 MOA and 0.47 MOA at 100 yds. OK. Moved on to AR 16-inch bbl, 6x scope, shooting ammo loaded on a Dillon 550b, 77gr SMK, RE15 shooting sub-1 MOA at 100. It was raining so we were training. Went home and cleaned guns.

Posted by: Richard at March 31, 2019 07:27 PM (hUZo5)

50 it was supposed to say giving a certain West Seattle WOODPECKER sage advice.

sucks when I mangle the punchline.

Posted by: LeftCoast Dawg at March 31, 2019 07:28 PM (sy5kK)

51
In Commiefornia you better reload because your government is counting every round you buy new.

Posted by: torabora at March 31, 2019 07:24 PM (85cCi)

---
i just have it shipped to me direct and they can't count shit.

in related news, the ammo lawsuit to overturn that bullshit is with the same judge that bitch-slapped Bracerro and CPC 32310 into unconstitutional land.

Posted by: redc1c4 at March 31, 2019 07:29 PM (rf8q9)

52 Very good day at the range.

Posted by: nurse ratched at March 31, 2019 07:23 PM (PkVlr)
------
I know what you mean! There is absolutely a "zone" I find when I'm shooting.

Sorry about your son's friend.

Posted by: Weasel at March 31, 2019 07:29 PM (MVjcR)

53 15: Go right through for MSU, watch the points keep growing!!! Hooray

Posted by: CN at March 31, 2019 07:29 PM (U7k5w)

54 If better than average accuracy is the goal not switching will dampen your spirits I would think.

A lifetime ago had halfer with a guy on a reloaded, we did it just
for a cheaper way to shoot. It was a quality machine that spun around
and did each step of the process.

Posted by: Skip at March 31, 2019 07:22 PM

---

I had a Dillon progressive machine a couple of decades ago, it was nice and fast and churned out a bunch of ammo, but it was a beast to set up when changing calibers.

It saved a bunch of $$$ over commercial loads but I was never a serious competition shooter so the accuracy part of the hobby was lost on me.

Now that money is not so tight I just buy commercial and don't reload any longer.

Posted by: The Great White Scotsman at March 31, 2019 07:31 PM (JUOKG)

55 Dinner. Back soon.

Posted by: RI Red at March 31, 2019 07:31 PM (wBaKQ)

56

Hey baby, what's a happenin'?

Posted by: Chicken with a bad haircut at March 31, 2019 07:31 PM (aKsyK)

57 Posted by: Brian Stelter at March 31, 2019 07:26 PM (3Nagy)

---
and then my wife laughed at them.

Posted by: redc1c4 at March 31, 2019 07:31 PM (rf8q9)

58 The focus, the calm, the breathing and the cause/effect were amazingly theraputic. I left feeling centered, calm and ready to be a support for my kiddos. I get it.

And my Rock Island 1911 is sooooo nice. I also landed 97/100 shots well inside the 9 with Mark's Ruger.

Very good day at the range.

Posted by: nurse ratched at March 31, 2019 07:23 PM (PkVlr)

-------------------------

I thought a gal I worked with was going to have a conniption fit when I mentioned going to the range was therapeutic. She didn't get the whole, "you, the rifle and the target" part while having to shut out the outside world in order to make the shot.

Posted by: Blake - used vacation salesman at March 31, 2019 07:32 PM (WEBkv)

59 Posted by: Richard at March 31, 2019 07:27 PM (hUZo5)
----
Nice! What powder were you using in the .308?

Posted by: Weasel at March 31, 2019 07:32 PM (MVjcR)

60 actually, it was within the ten, I just looked up the targets. anyhoo, I'm a rookie, so it was still probably acceptable.

but I get the zen of the range.

my .357 S&W revolver did manage to jam a couple of times. Mark thought it was due to the cheap ammo.

managed to get off over 300 rounds. it was nice.

Posted by: nurse ratched at March 31, 2019 07:35 PM (PkVlr)

61 my .357 S&W revolver did manage to jam a couple of times. Mark thought it was due to the cheap ammo.

managed to get off over 300 rounds. it was nice.

Posted by: nurse ratched at March 31, 2019 07:35 PM (PkVlr)
----
Have you been shooting .38 Special in the .357? If so, crud can build up in the chamber and cause the .357 casr to stick out the back of the cylinder a tiny bit.

Posted by: Weasel at March 31, 2019 07:38 PM (MVjcR)

62 Have you been shooting .38 Special in the .357? If so, crud can build up in the chamber and cause the .357 casr to stick out the back of the cylinder a tiny bit.
Posted by: Weasel

I have been. But I have also been cleaning my revolver thoroughly after every other visit.

Posted by: nurse ratched at March 31, 2019 07:39 PM (PkVlr)

63 Wondering how NZ Frank is doing, they are getting very serious on gun grabbing I think going house to house.
Here to do that it better be armoured vehicles and SWAT teams doijng it.

Posted by: Skip at March 31, 2019 07:39 PM (BbGew)

64 Believe it or not, black powder (BP) produces Standard Deviations of velocity sometimes 2-fold lower than the best smokeless powder (SP) loads. I assume it's do to the smaller changes in pressure (and thus velocity) relative to SP that adding/subtracting a few grains of BP.

Posted by: WVinMN at March 31, 2019 07:39 PM (pV4s0)

65 Damn, I know it's early for offtopic but I'm needing to step out of that old shack and put 15 rounds of 135 grain HydraShock in that Alphabitch on TWD. Seriously.

Posted by: Eromero at March 31, 2019 07:42 PM (qBNEP)

66 Have you been shooting .38 Special in the .357? If so, crud can build up in the chamber and cause the .357 casr to stick out the back of the cylinder a tiny bit.
Posted by: Weasel

I have been. But I have also been cleaning my revolver thoroughly after every other visit.

Posted by: nurse ratched at March 31, 2019 07:39 PM (PkVlr)
-------
It can be exceptionally difficult to get the carbon out of the cylinder. The .38 case is slightly shorter and the buildup of carbon at the case mouth can lead to problems. Look for a cleaning product called the Lewis Lead Remover.

Posted by: Weasel at March 31, 2019 07:42 PM (MVjcR)

67 nurse
That's great. Sorry about your son's friend.
The crazy is getting stronger by the day over there.
So glad I'm east of the crest.
A Seattle friend, adopted little sister came through. She had seen Seattle is Dying, lives in Ballard. Is moving to Wenatchee soon.
She was nearly in tears at breakfast when she said, "I used to be a liberal!".
I laughed.

Posted by: Winston a dreg of society at March 31, 2019 07:42 PM (5U303)

68
63 Wondering how NZ Frank is doing, they are getting very serious on gun grabbing I think going house to house.
Here to do that it better be armoured vehicles and SWAT teams doijng it.
Posted by: Skip at March 31, 2019 07:39 PM (BbGew)

Kind of makes you wonder if they were planning/hoping for this shit.

Posted by: Aetius451AD at March 31, 2019 07:43 PM (ycWCI)

69 In the new film "Highwaymen," the Bonnie and Clyde killing is shown true-to-life, or in this case, to death.

Wiki says the corpses were so perforated it made embalming difficult.

The lawmen left the two dead in the Ford and towed it back to town, and the locals swarmed the vehicle to view the bodies, and snip off souveniers.

Like hair, maybe a finger, or an ear.

Posted by: Les Kinetic at March 31, 2019 07:43 PM (+fPHo)

70 That Labradar rocks. Went to the range to compare to the PACT. The optical is garbage in comparison. I was very tempted to leave the Pact Pro at the range and donate it to whoever showed up to take it - but those at the range are too honest and it would likely languish in the club's Lost n' Found.

I like the ability to calculate BC (doesn't like the 5.56 for long ranges though), but I fire .300 WinMag for distance. Also, it needs a better mount. Using clamps now to hold it in place, the tripod mount is too flimsy and it may be effected by muzzle blast, particularly to the side of a .460SW.

Speaking of BC, Weasel, are you deliberately ignoring that in this statement:
if you fire exactly the same weight bullet at exactly the same speed in exactly the same conditions without moving the gun even a teeensy little bit, the bullets will arrive at the same place on target.

It ain't just the weight, its also the drag in those "exact same conditions".

Why else make all kinds of different shapes of projectiles?

Boattail vs flat-base vs ...

Posted by: Blue Bird of F'ing Joy at March 31, 2019 07:43 PM (lD3vL)

71 Wondering how NZ Frank is doing, they are getting very serious on gun grabbing I think going house to house.
Here to do that it better be armoured vehicles and SWAT teams doijng it.
Posted by: Skip at March 31, 2019 07:39 PM (BbGew)

Yup......the first couple of times they try are the key.

Be calm and remember you can always take a few with you when you go.

Posted by: Hairyback Guy at March 31, 2019 07:43 PM (Z+IKu)

72 Weasel,

Beautiful job of summarizing the factors that influence accuracy without getting overly technical.

I don't compete or measure muzzle velocity but agree with you that 50 fps is acceptable for handgun purposes. Obviously, the more consistent the better but this is going to meet most needs and shooting ability.

As to better quality (that is more expensive) ammo for beginners, that's why most start off with 22lr. High quality ammo is still affordable compared to centerfire. Also, there are some bargains out there that offer superior performance at sane prices. It's worth seeking out.

As someone Colonel Townsend Whelen wrote, "Only accurate rifles are interesting". Once past the beginners level, I think it pays to let your guns be interesting.

Posted by: JTB at March 31, 2019 07:43 PM (bmdz3)

73 65 Damn, I know it's early for offtopic but I'm needing to step out of that old shack and put 15 rounds of 135 grain HydraShock in that Alphabitch on TWD. Seriously.

Posted by: Eromero at March 31, 2019 07:42 PM (qBNEP)
------
I'm sure you're speaking figuratively.

Posted by: Weasel at March 31, 2019 07:44 PM (MVjcR)

74 I laughed.
Posted by: Winston

please, try not to laugh. My city is indeed dying. It is painful. But I'm not letting those motherfuckinghamsterfuckers run me out. My kids are fourth generation Washingtonians.

buy ammo. then buy more ammo.
and practice, practice, PRACTICE.

Posted by: nurse ratched at March 31, 2019 07:44 PM (PkVlr)

75 It can be exceptionally difficult to get the carbon out of the cylinder. The .38 case is slightly shorter and the buildup of carbon at the case mouth can lead to problems. Look for a cleaning product called the Lewis Lead Remover.

What are your thoughts on sonic cleaners?

Posted by: Blue Bird of F'ing Joy at March 31, 2019 07:45 PM (lD3vL)

76 Posted by: Blue Bird of F'ing Joy at March 31, 2019 07:43 PM (lD3vL)
----
...and BC.

Posted by: Weasel at March 31, 2019 07:46 PM (MVjcR)

77 "Here to do that it better be armoured vehicles and SWAT teams doijng it."

Obama would just call in a drone strike.

"The Highwaymen" seconded for viewing.
The Ranger Haber gun buying scene was awesome.

Posted by: navybrat, mostly lurking, occasionally chiming in at March 31, 2019 07:47 PM (w7KSn)

78 69 In the new film "Highwaymen," the Bonnie and Clyde killing is shown true-to-life, or in this case, to death.

Wiki says the corpses were so perforated it made embalming difficult.

The lawmen left the two dead in the Ford and towed it back to town, and the locals swarmed the vehicle to view the bodies, and snip off souveniers.

Like hair, maybe a finger, or an ear.
Posted by: Les Kinetic at March 31, 2019 07:43 PM (+fPHo)

Good movie. Watched it a couple of nights ago. Did a good job of capturing the desperation of the time. It also dispatched the romantic myth of Bonnie and Clyde. They were fucking animals.

Posted by: Sooner at March 31, 2019 07:47 PM (Fs5vw)

79 Is it significant over 1000 yards? "

Less if near the former GA gubernatorial candidate...

Lots of gravity...

Posted by: Anon a mouse at March 31, 2019 07:47 PM (6qErC)

80 Nurse

I fled West Seattle nearly five years ago after a home invasion scare. I do not need that shit. The cops responded fairly quickly but if the miscreants had broken in, well. I'd probably be in prison for defending myself.
I have no trust or faith in the PD there.

Posted by: Winston a dreg of society at March 31, 2019 07:48 PM (5U303)

81 How about ammunition recommendations for new shooters - do you agree with the opinion to have them shooting the best possible ammunition, or is economy more important?

As you observed earlier, no need for high quality ammo when plinking. The best way to win over new shooters is not to punch holes in paper, but to ring steal.

Plinking gives immediate feedback, and until proper technique is mastered is highly satisfying as opposed to agonizing on the failure to mass produce cloverleafs at 200.

Posted by: Blue Bird of F'ing Joy at March 31, 2019 07:49 PM (lD3vL)

82 Very interesting post, as usual. Thanks.

7.5" at 1000yds seems a lot more than I expected.
So a quick question, what do military snipers use?

Posted by: Gentlemen, this is democracy manifest at March 31, 2019 07:49 PM (LWu6U)

83 What are your thoughts on sonic cleaners?

Posted by: Blue Bird of F'ing Joy at March 31, 2019 07:45 PM (lD3vL)
------
That's a great question. I've never used one, and frankly am not super fanatical about cleaning (most of) my handguns. A lot of competitive shooters use them for cleaning brass but I always thought that was overkill.

Posted by: Weasel at March 31, 2019 07:49 PM (MVjcR)

84 Read this morning a good article on why that NZ gun grab is a totally false flag result from that mass murder and how they have under penalty kept NZers from learning the truth about it.

Posted by: Skip at March 31, 2019 07:49 PM (BbGew)

85 Any turkey hunters out there? I just patterned my Benelli SBEII using Federal's 3.5" #9 TSS stuff and the 50 yard target was peppered. Over 200 hits in an 8" circle. Worth $9 per shot? Considering I only shoot 3-5 turkey rounds per year, I'd say yes.

Posted by: WVinMN at March 31, 2019 07:50 PM (pV4s0)

86 64 Believe it or not, black powder (BP) produces Standard Deviations of velocity sometimes 2-fold lower than the best smokeless powder (SP) loads. I assume it's do to the smaller changes in pressure (and thus velocity) relative to SP that adding/subtracting a few grains of BP.

Posted by: WVinMN at March 31, 2019 07:39 PM (pV4s0)
-----
Really? I did not know that! Interesting!

Posted by: Weasel at March 31, 2019 07:50 PM (MVjcR)

87 For those of you measuring velocities, have you ever had a situation where a load's performance looks terrible on paper but happens to shoot very well?
--------------

Often. I find that my best grouping ammo will have at best, mediocre ES as SD numbers. I have a Labradar and use it for load development and record keeping, but load selection is based on ladder tests, to find the widest node, and consistent, small, round grouping.

Posted by: iron308 at March 31, 2019 07:50 PM (hW/ap)

88 Weasel
Evif this comes across to me as Welsh but with more vowels, thank you for this island of sanity.

Posted by: Winston a dreg of society at March 31, 2019 07:50 PM (5U303)

89 What are your thoughts on sonic cleaners?

Posted by: Blue Bird of F'ing Joy at March 31, 2019 07:45 PM (lD3vL)

---
i've heard of them...

Posted by: redc1c4 at March 31, 2019 07:51 PM (rf8q9)

90 Winston,

I'm in West Seattle. Admiral district. I have ZERO faith in law enforcement.

I am not afraid of going to jail to defend my kids. I'm NOT going to be run off by these asshats. I was here first. They can go and fuck themselves.

And the bloody woodpecker is taunting me in the trees. He won't land on the house where I can see him clearly.

little fucker

Posted by: nurse ratched at March 31, 2019 07:51 PM (PkVlr)

91 three out of four against the World Series champs.

and a sunny warm day.

and the Gun Thread.

thank you, God.

Posted by: LeftCoast Dawg at March 31, 2019 07:52 PM (sy5kK)

92 Why yes, I have been to the range, thank you.

Took my .22 plinkers out again. This time I was able to sight in my Mossberg Tactical 22's iron sights at 15 yards. Last week I was at 30 yards and was kinda all over the place.

That's probably not much in the eyes of the pros, but I considered it a bit odd a step forward, rookie that I am. Next step now is to put the scope on I had bought with it and sight that in.

Posted by: Emperor Country Boy at March 31, 2019 07:53 PM (68HmN)

93 I had a problem with Geco .357 158 gr. fmj in my brand-new S(implied ampersand)W model 360 PD. The brass was so "soft" that it really stuck in the chambers and I had a hell of a time extracting. Every time. Other ammo brands didn't have that issue at all. Last cyl of the day was that ammo, and the problem resurfaced in the 360, however, the Geco works fine in my Python and GP100. Go figure.

Posted by: Brian Stelter's testicles in a jar at March 31, 2019 07:53 PM (3Nagy)

94 WVinMN stole my thunder. The serious black powder cartridge competitors only use BP, usually Swiss brand. BP consistency is remarkable, even with the less expensive brands.

I only use BP, these days. It's less expensive than Pyrodex and other substitutes when bought in bulk. And even in my not too lofty target goals, I can see the difference of BP over the subs.

Posted by: JTB at March 31, 2019 07:53 PM (bmdz3)

95 It was just me. My partner had died a few months before. I was not tied to the place. Now, I'm in E-burg and enjoy, among other things clear fields of fire and a friendly sheriff.

Posted by: Winston a dreg of society at March 31, 2019 07:53 PM (5U303)

96 I wonder if hand loading is untraceable? That would be a great selling point.

Posted by: Puddin Head at March 31, 2019 07:53 PM (vV/gB)

97 And to the extent I do use numbers for load selection, I use SD generated from >25 shots.

Posted by: iron308 at March 31, 2019 07:53 PM (hW/ap)

98 Weasel @ 73- Figuratively? Hell I'm talking virtually if it was possible, Weasel. She got my dander up.

Posted by: Eromero at March 31, 2019 07:54 PM (qBNEP)

99 Also, As a non-reloader, but as an Engineer who knows a bit about uniformity in manufacturing, I am curious what these "extraordinary measures" are.

I look forward to that post if you ever decide to go into details about more advanced level of reloading.

Posted by: Gentlemen, this is democracy manifest at March 31, 2019 07:54 PM (LWu6U)

100 a bore brush with Shooter's Choice or the lead remover mentioned above will help in cleaning the cylinder of your 357...

Posted by: redc1c4 at March 31, 2019 07:54 PM (rf8q9)

101 77 "Here to do that it better be armoured vehicles and SWAT teams doijng it."

Obama would just call in a drone strike.

Posted by: navybrat, mostly lurking, occasionally chiming in at March 31, 2019 07:47 PM

Just nuke 'em. Problem solved.

Posted by: Rep. Eric Swalwell, D-Calif. at March 31, 2019 07:55 PM (DTX3h)

102 Winston,

I hope you are planning on May in Yakima. I look forward to meeting you.

Posted by: nurse ratched at March 31, 2019 07:55 PM (PkVlr)

103 82 Very interesting post, as usual. Thanks.

7.5" at 1000yds seems a lot more than I expected.
So a quick question, what do military snipers use?

Posted by: Gentlemen, this is democracy manifest at March 31, 2019 07:49 PM (LWu6U)
------
Thanks! I know the Marines do some reloading for their precision shooting guys. A lot of police snipers use the FGMM 168's I tested above. My match loads generally hold well inside the 10 ring (10.5' dia) at 1000yds

Posted by: Weasel at March 31, 2019 07:56 PM (MVjcR)

104 Nurse
It's on my calendar and I wouldn't miss it for the world.
Is Insom going to be there?

Posted by: Winston a dreg of society at March 31, 2019 07:56 PM (5U303)

105 The "problem", if there is one, with sonic cleaners, is that it will indeed clean the weapon down to the bare materials (it won't ruin the bluing), but it will completely strip off all lubricants and metal protectants. Thus tossing a Glock or a 1911 slide into a sonic cleaner is going to require a complete stripping of the slide down to oil up everything so that it doesn't rust.

Cleaning cases is nice, but the cases get all gummed up again when preparing them for the dies.

Speaking of which, any thoughts on case lubes for long rifle cases? I have damaged quite a number of dies over the years with cases getting stuck and now only buy high carbon steel dies.

Posted by: Blue Bird of F'ing Joy at March 31, 2019 07:57 PM (lD3vL)

106 Bought another AR, in .410. Just because.

Posted by: davidt at March 31, 2019 07:57 PM (b0VXl)

107 Is Insom going to be there?
Posted by: Winston

I wish.

I may be a little more pushy than I have been, though, in trying to make that happen. It would be such a hoot!

Posted by: nurse ratched at March 31, 2019 07:57 PM (PkVlr)

108 88 Weasel
Evif this comes across to me as Welsh but with more vowels, thank you for this island of sanity.

Posted by: Winston a dreg of society at March 31, 2019 07:50 PM (5U303)
----
My pleasure. Thank you.

Posted by: Weasel at March 31, 2019 07:57 PM (MVjcR)

109 Hah! I'd like to meet him Nurse.
He seems to have done a fine job swooning you.

Posted by: Winston a dreg of society at March 31, 2019 07:59 PM (5U303)

110 94...
I currently use Swiss in my Lyman Great Plains rifle, and when I used to reload 45-70 BP loads for a Pedersoli Remington Rolling Block. Great stuff.

Posted by: WVinMN at March 31, 2019 07:59 PM (pV4s0)

111 To everyone in the Pac NW, Yakima was selected specifically so people would not have to travel to Seattle, hoping that more Morons could attend.

I told you nurse was smart.

Posted by: LeftCoast Dawg at March 31, 2019 08:01 PM (sy5kK)

112 what is TWD?

Posted by: redc1c4 at March 31, 2019 08:01 PM (rf8q9)

113 "Boris & Natasha say Russia collusion fake news - Work of Moose and Squirrel."

_Woodstock Home and Hardware

Posted by: Braenyard at March 31, 2019 08:01 PM (ePWRo)

114 109 Hah! I'd like to meet him Nurse.
He seems to have done a fine job swooning you.
Posted by: Winston

He is a riot! We went to the range with Mark while Insom was here. It is a bonding experience to shoot with a potential partner. And he's quite a good shot. Very sexy.

Posted by: nurse ratched at March 31, 2019 08:02 PM (PkVlr)

115 I mentioned this last week, but I'm finding CCI Bl*zer 22lr ammo, 40 grain lead bullets, to be a huge bargain of quality for the price. It's usually about 25 or 26 bucks a brick. Also, the reviews on the Cabelas and MidwayUSA sites is very positive.

BTW, Pixey won't let us use the Bl*zer word for some reason. Obviously an 'a' goes in the spot. Probably something before my time here.

Posted by: JTB at March 31, 2019 08:02 PM (bmdz3)

116 but load selection is based on ladder tests, to find the widest node, and consistent, small, round grouping.

Posted by: iron308 at March 31, 2019 07:50 PM (hW/ap)

---
is there a translation of this into English available?

Posted by: redc1c4 at March 31, 2019 08:02 PM (rf8q9)

117 LCD it's obvious nurse is smart. The story of how she found this pack of repro... errr... folks, must be a hoot.

Posted by: Winston a dreg of society at March 31, 2019 08:02 PM (5U303)

118 What are your thoughts on sonic cleaners?
Posted by: Blue Bird of F'ing Joy at March 31, 2019 07:45 PM (lD3vL)

Here is a decent video...

https://tinyurl.com/yycfz25s

Posted by: Hairyback Guy at March 31, 2019 08:02 PM (Z+IKu)

119 96
I wonder if hand loading is untraceable? That would be a great selling point.
Posted by: Puddin Head at March 31, 2019 07:53 PM (vV/gB)
------
I guess the bullet could be traced to the barrel after it's fired, but not based on components alone.

Posted by: Weasel at March 31, 2019 08:02 PM (MVjcR)

120 Posted by: Weasel at March 31, 2019 07:56 PM (MVjcR)

Thanks Weasel.

Posted by: Gentlemen, this is democracy manifest at March 31, 2019 08:03 PM (LWu6U)

121 117 LCD it's obvious nurse is smart. The story of how she found this pack of repro... errr... folks, must be a hoot.
Posted by: Winston a dreg of society at March 31, 2019 08:02 PM (5U303)

Hopefully one of many stories that will be revealed in Yakima this May.

Looking forward to meeting you, Winston!

Posted by: LeftCoast Dawg at March 31, 2019 08:04 PM (sy5kK)

122 Nurse
It's on my calendar and I wouldn't miss it for the world.
Is Insom going to be there?
Posted by: Winston a dreg of society at March 31, 2019 07:56 PM (5U303)

I toyed with the idea of showing up, until mapquest said it was a 28 hour drive. Ouch. Probably not.

Posted by: Emperor Country Boy at March 31, 2019 08:05 PM (68HmN)

123 If sonic cleaners are similar to what they use on teeth why not?

Posted by: Skip at March 31, 2019 08:05 PM (BbGew)

124 I look forward to that post if you ever decide to go into details about more advanced level of reloading.

Among other things, it involves sizing capacities and sorting cases due to variances in manufacturing.

Being anal retentive about batch numbers for all components too.

Posted by: Blue Bird of F'ing Joy at March 31, 2019 08:05 PM (lD3vL)

125 Also, As a non-reloader, but as an Engineer who knows a bit about uniformity in manufacturing, I am curious what these "extraordinary measures" are.

I look forward to that post if you ever decide to go into details about more advanced level of reloading.

Posted by: Gentlemen, this is democracy manifest at March 31, 2019 07:54 PM (LWu6U)
---------
I will probably get to that sometime after the basics. In a nutshell, it involves a lot of case preparation steps to ensure uniformity, exact powder measuring and other things like sorting match bullets based on precise measurements. Stuff like that.

Posted by: Weasel at March 31, 2019 08:05 PM (MVjcR)

126 If sonic cleaners are similar to what they use on teeth why not?

If by "teeth" you mean "dentures".

Posted by: Blue Bird of F'ing Joy at March 31, 2019 08:06 PM (lD3vL)

127 50 yds?
For turkeys?

Well different strokes but I really prefer getting my turkeys,,, and geese, in really close. More exciting.

10 to 15 yds for turkey. #5, regular old lead to the neck and head does just fine.

Geese, nothinv further than 30 yds tops with plain old steel in BB or BBB.
And imagine laying on your back in a stubble field, with a first aid kit for a head rest and all but your face covered in brown camo burlap.
Decoys behind and upwind of you.

A half dozen or so geese coming straight at you,,, 30 feet out, wings out and landing gear down.

Posted by: teej at March 31, 2019 08:06 PM (d2mYc)

128 Do you read the velocities from the Labradar off the LCD on the box, or is there a remote unit that a spotter can read from behind the line?

Some kind of Labradar receiver?

Posted by: hogmartin at March 31, 2019 08:07 PM (t+qrx)

129 > have you been to the range?

Yes.
I must be getting better because I was annoyed that I only put 28-29 of 30 shots on the 11x17 target at 100 yards.

-----
Thinking of getting a bolt-action 7.62x39mm rifle. Plan to use it for shooting targets at 50-300 yards.

What kind of scope should I get? I'm *not* asking for a brand name. I mean, what features should I be looking for?

Posted by: ArthurK at March 31, 2019 08:07 PM (T+HB1)

130 119...

Years ago, I recall talk about adding "tracking agents" to commercially available smokeless powder. I don't think that idea went anywhere, but who knows.

Posted by: WVinMN at March 31, 2019 08:08 PM (pV4s0)

131 Anyone who wants to show up is welcome!

Between me and Mark, if you fly into Seattle, we will get you to Yakima, make sure you have a warm, dry, safe place to sleep, shower and poop, are well fed and get back to the airport on time for your return home.

Posted by: nurse ratched at March 31, 2019 08:08 PM (PkVlr)

132 Being anal retentive about batch numbers for all components too.

Posted by: Blue Bird of F'ing Joy at March 31, 2019 08:05 PM (lD3vL)
-----
Man is that ever the truth.

Posted by: Weasel at March 31, 2019 08:09 PM (MVjcR)

133 I was looking at an Oehler 35P as a chrony, but that LabRadar just might be the ticket instead.

Posted by: AZ Hi Desert (Si vis Pacem, Para Bellum) at March 31, 2019 08:10 PM (l7Kbv)

134 I guess the bullet could be traced to the barrel after it's fired, but not based on components alone.

That is why every good Moron immediately purchases high quality replacement barrels for their firearm and uses that for all of their gun related crimes.

Then after whatever unlawful deed occurs that may result in a raid and seizure of evidence, simply take the barrel used in the event, dimensionally adjust it with a sledge hammer, soak it in pool acid and deposit it far away from anywhere anyone might look.

Reapply your original barrel with matching serial numbers, act innocent.

Posted by: Blue Bird of F'ing Joy at March 31, 2019 08:10 PM (lD3vL)

135 110 ... "I currently use Swiss in my Lyman Great Plains rifle, and when I used to reload 45-70 BP loads for a Pedersoli Remington Rolling Block. Great stuff.
Posted by: WVinMN"

Glad to hear that about Swiss. If I ever get into ML competition again, I'll have to get some for the flinters and an old Navy Arms 45-70 rolling block. In the meantime, Goex and Schutzen meet my needs.

Posted by: JTB at March 31, 2019 08:11 PM (bmdz3)

136 Fascinating post, Weasel. The only thing I have even a prayer of understanding is the math. The rest might as well be in Russian. But you obviously know your stuff because other smart Morons get it.

Posted by: bluebell at March 31, 2019 08:12 PM (aXucN)

137 TWD is on on Sunday nights and it's the only soap opera I ever watched. And Weasel, good job as always especially the maths. I can shoot some ways out but up close and personal is more my style. Speaking of which, I have a G43 frame just longing to mate with a G48 slide. Is this a match sanction by the Glock gods?

Posted by: Eromero at March 31, 2019 08:12 PM (qBNEP)

138 is there a translation of this into English available?
Posted by: redc1c4 at March 31, 2019 08:02 PM (rf8q9)

Yeah, sorry. Try https://tinyurl.com/y4to8ev3

Probably should have just said believe your groups, not your chronograph numbers.

Posted by: iron308 at March 31, 2019 08:13 PM (hW/ap)

139 Any recommendations for where to buy magazines? I'm looking for Ruger 10/22, SW M&P .40, SW model 410, .40 magazines, I have 6, 30 rounders for the mini 30 but not sure that is enough.

Posted by: Beartooth at March 31, 2019 08:14 PM (5q9y4)

140 Do you read the velocities from the Labradar off the LCD on the box, or is there a remote unit that a spotter can read from behind the line?

Some kind of Labradar receiver?

Posted by: hogmartin at March 31, 2019 08:07 PM (t+qrx)
--------
Yes - from the display on the back. They also have an app that allows you to run it from a smartphone which is nice.

Posted by: Weasel at March 31, 2019 08:15 PM (MVjcR)

141 I think I mentioned last week we have a magazine rack in the breakroom at work and some nervous nellie lost her shit when she found a copy of Concealed Carry in there. Snatched it from the rack and tore it into itsy-bitsy pieces while kvetching and stomping around loudly.

I made the rounds this week and bought/found/stole every gun related mag, newspaper advertisement, and catalog I could lay my hands on. If I accidentally leave two a week there I have enough for about seven weeks worth of entertainment.

Sorry not sorry.

Posted by: Tonypete at March 31, 2019 08:17 PM (Y4EXg)

142 139...
DK Mags in New Brighton, MN is a great place to buy practically any magazine you'd ever need (dkmags.com).

Posted by: WVinMN at March 31, 2019 08:17 PM (pV4s0)

143 Posted by: AZ Hi Desert (Si vis Pacem, Para Bellum) at March 31, 2019 08:10 PM (l7Kbv)
------
You won't be disappointed!

Posted by: Weasel at March 31, 2019 08:18 PM (MVjcR)

144 Flight equations wearing women's clothing? The hell?

Posted by: Insomniac at March 31, 2019 08:18 PM (NWiLs)

145 Thanks for the Great thread, Weasel, Nice Job.

Posted by: DBCooper at March 31, 2019 08:19 PM (bttOm)

146 Not to contradict folks but I have fired tens of thousands of 38 specials in my 357 revolvers and never had the ring of crud build-up. I do use a bronze bore brush when cleaning the chambers. I also make sure to clean under the extraction star.

Posted by: JTB at March 31, 2019 08:19 PM (bmdz3)

147 Fascinating post, Weasel. The only thing I have even a prayer of understanding is the math. The rest might as well be in Russian. But you obviously know your stuff because other smart Morons get it.

Posted by: bluebell at March 31, 2019 08:12 PM (aXucN)
-------
Thanks, bluebell!

Posted by: Weasel at March 31, 2019 08:20 PM (MVjcR)

148 I made the rounds this week and bought/found/stole every gun related mag, newspaper advertisement, and catalog I could lay my hands on. If I accidentally leave two a week there I have enough for about seven weeks worth of entertainment.

Sorry not sorry.
Posted by: Tonypete at March 31, 2019 08:17 PM (Y4EXg)
-------------

I love this! We could all send you our old NRA magazines. You could have a field day.

Posted by: bluebell at March 31, 2019 08:20 PM (aXucN)

149 Probably should have just said believe your groups, not your chronograph numbers.

Chronographs and maths help build dope charts. So you know that your rifle is zeroed at 200 with Load X. Now what is your holdover for 300?

Years ago I bought a mountain of technical books with the thought that if I compiled enough data points from users providing load data and field results it would be possible to have a computer model what the best recipe of producing the most accurate round for a given mass produced rifle.

There was no way on earth that I could get the users of the app to chronograph their rounds, but if I knew roughly where and when a shooter fired at multiple distance targets with a single recipe round, it would be possible to back in to speed.

While the software is good to go, the real problem with it is that everyone lies about their shooting and I wouldn't be able to trust the incoming data.

GIGO.

Posted by: Blue Bird of F'ing Joy at March 31, 2019 08:20 PM (lD3vL)

150 Ok, back.
Weasel, I was using a Caldwell Lead Sled, with my left hand underneath fine-tuning the rear support wheel. Should I be holding down the stock instead?

Posted by: RI Red at March 31, 2019 08:21 PM (wBaKQ)

151 Sorry not sorry.
Posted by: Tonypete at March 31, 2019 08:17 PM (Y4EXg)

You Sir are an inspiration.

Carry on.....

Posted by: Hairyback Guy at March 31, 2019 08:22 PM (Z+IKu)

152 I made the rounds this week and bought/found/stole every gun related mag, newspaper advertisement, and catalog I could lay my hands on. If I accidentally leave two a week there I have enough for about seven weeks worth of entertainment.

No collection is complete without some "Soldier of Fortune" magazines in the mix.

Posted by: Blue Bird of F'ing Joy at March 31, 2019 08:23 PM (lD3vL)

153 Speaking of which, any thoughts on case lubes for long rifle cases? I have damaged quite a number of dies over the years with cases getting stuck and now only buy high carbon steel dies.

Posted by: Blue Bird of F'ing Joy at March 31, 2019 07:57 PM (lD3vL)
-------
I use Imperial Sizing Die Wax that comes in a little tin. You only need a tiny bit. I use titanium bushings in all of my FL dies.

Posted by: Weasel at March 31, 2019 08:24 PM (MVjcR)

154 Saw this on /r/gundeals today and thought of Anna Puma.

https://www.reddit.com/r/gundeals/comments/b77rbz/
other_look_kawaii_af_hardcore_tactics_nekomimi/

(Remove linefeed after rbz/)

Posted by: Bob the Bilderberg at March 31, 2019 08:25 PM (qc+VF)

155 Not to contradict folks but I have fired tens of thousands of 38 specials in my 357 revolvers and never had the ring of crud build-up. I do use a bronze bore brush when cleaning the chambers. I also make sure to clean under the extraction star.

Posted by: JTB at March 31, 2019 08:19 PM (bmdz3)
-------
I have some revolvers that seem to be affected more than others. The bronze brush I'm sure goes a long way toward preventing it.

Posted by: Weasel at March 31, 2019 08:26 PM (MVjcR)

156 145 Thanks for the Great thread, Weasel, Nice Job.

Posted by: DBCooper at March 31, 2019 08:19 PM (bttOm)
------
You're welcome! Thank you.

Posted by: Weasel at March 31, 2019 08:27 PM (MVjcR)

157 magazine you'd ever need (dkmags.com).
Posted by: WVinMN at March 31, 2019 08:17 PM (pV4s0)

Thanks. Looks like they have a very nice selection.

Posted by: Beartooth at March 31, 2019 08:29 PM (5q9y4)

158 And, one personal success:
I zeroed my scope at 100, then used a Ballistics calculator for the first time in the field with real data. Even though my sight didn't have moa hashes, I guesstimated 4.95 moa as 15" holdover at 310 yds and .5 moa as 1.5" crosswind.
And hit the 12" gong.
Almost as satisfying as sex.
If I could actually remember what that was.

Posted by: RI Red at March 31, 2019 08:29 PM (wBaKQ)

159 150 Ok, back.
Weasel, I was using a Caldwell Lead Sled, with my left hand underneath fine-tuning the rear support wheel. Should I be holding down the stock instead?

Posted by: RI Red at March 31, 2019 08:21 PM (wBaKQ)
---------
I'm not really sure. I'd need to see the setup, but I would sure bet something is going on in the back. This is the same load that tested well before, right?

Posted by: Weasel at March 31, 2019 08:32 PM (MVjcR)

160 Posted by: Blue Bird of F'ing Joy at March 31, 2019 08:20 PM (lD3vL)
-------
Take a look at QuickLOAD software.

Posted by: Weasel at March 31, 2019 08:33 PM (MVjcR)

161 JTB,

I have a copper brush. I will be more diligent in getting under the wheel.

Posted by: nurse ratched at March 31, 2019 08:34 PM (PkVlr)

162 Tonypete you are a true American

Posted by: Skip at March 31, 2019 08:35 PM (BbGew)

163 139 Any recommendations for where to buy magazines? I'm looking for Ruger 10/22, SW M&P .40, SW model 410, .40 magazines, I have 6, 30 rounders for the mini 30 but not sure that is enough.
Posted by: Beartooth
======================

gunmagwarehouse.com

Posted by: Guzalot at March 31, 2019 08:35 PM (aJPGS)

164 Tonypete you are a true American
Posted by: Skip

No!

He's a Great American!!!

Posted by: Sean Hannity, Great American! at March 31, 2019 08:36 PM (S6Pax)

165 Damn, I'm getting forgetful. Yeah, same load, Weasel. But last shot was way off and I saw that the scope rings had loosened up.
Do you use loktite on the screws?
Go to add a scope check to my routine.

Posted by: RI Red at March 31, 2019 08:37 PM (wBaKQ)

166
No!

He's a Great American!!!
Posted by: Sean Hannity, Great American! at March 31, 2019 08:36 PM (S6Pax)

(S6Pax)

winner.

Posted by: LeftCoast Dawg at March 31, 2019 08:37 PM (sy5kK)

167
What kind of scope should I get? I'm *not* asking for a brand name. I mean, what features should I be looking for?

Posted by: ArthurK at March 31, 2019 08:07 PM (T+HB1)
------
I'd recommend not going crazy on magnification. Some of my competition scopes are something like 55x and I almost never use all that. For shooting at 1K usually 30x max

Posted by: Weasel at March 31, 2019 08:39 PM (MVjcR)

168 All right - I commented a few weeks ago that my Saiga 7.62x39 is the loudest firearm I ever shot.I would like at least a comment or two in reply...

Posted by: Spankmeister at March 31, 2019 08:41 PM (dn8lZ)

169 I have a copper brush. I will be more diligent in getting under the wheel.

Posted by: nurse ratched at March 31, 2019 08:34 PM (PkVlr)
-----
Also the 'lip' at the very forward part of the chamber next to where the case mouth would be. Let us know if it works for you!

Posted by: Weasel at March 31, 2019 08:42 PM (MVjcR)

170 You can all come to Colorado April 27th!

Posted by: westminsterdogshow at March 31, 2019 08:43 PM (c1nDO)

171 Bonnie and Clyde's Ford was an exhibited attraction at movie theater's around the country.

Posted by: Braenyard at March 31, 2019 08:43 PM (ePWRo)

172 Damn, I'm getting forgetful. Yeah, same load, Weasel. But last shot was way off and I saw that the scope rings had loosened up.
Do you use loktite on the screws?
Go to add a scope check to my routine.

Posted by: RI Red at March 31, 2019 08:37 PM (wBaKQ)
------
I think the rings on my guns are torqued to 30 inch pounds and the base is 65 inch pounds. Shouldn't need Loctite, but it's a good idea to check once in a while.

Posted by: Weasel at March 31, 2019 08:44 PM (MVjcR)

173 Thanks for these threads Mr. Weasel!
I am planning to start reloading in the next few months, and the burning question for me right now is single stage or turret?
I don't want to pop for a progressive yet, as I'm a relatively low volume shooter (compared to others here).
I'm pretty well set on RCBS, price point is reasonable, and reviews are very positive for both styles. So which should I get?

Posted by: Glen the deplorable lurker at March 31, 2019 08:45 PM (3rAnC)

174 Sorry not sorry.

Posted by: Tonypete at March 31, 2019 08:17 PM (Y4EXg)

---
LOL...

you has e-mail, assuming your nick is accurate.

Posted by: redc1c4 at March 31, 2019 08:45 PM (rf8q9)

175 Also the 'lip' at the very forward part of the chamber next to where the case mouth would be. Let us know if it works for you!
Posted by: Weasel

thanks, weasel!

just how often should I be cleaning my pistols?

Posted by: nurse ratched at March 31, 2019 08:45 PM (PkVlr)

176 Take a look at QuickLOAD software.

The goal was to have recommendations to, say, load a .300 WinMag Remington 700 with the most accurate load. So which speed powder? What sort of powder shape (cylindrical, spherical, etc.)? Projectile? Best brand of primer?

Nothing beats empirical evidence when it comes to determining barrel harmonics.

I was hoping that crowd sourcing load data and field results it would provide the answer.

Posted by: Blue Bird of F'ing Joy at March 31, 2019 08:46 PM (lD3vL)

177 And, one personal success:
I zeroed my scope at 100, then used a Ballistics calculator for the first time in the field with real data. Even though my sight didn't have moa hashes, I guesstimated 4.95 moa as 15" holdover at 310 yds and .5 moa as 1.5" crosswind.
And hit the 12" gong.
Almost as satisfying as sex.
If I could actually remember what that was.

Posted by: RI Red at March 31, 2019 08:29 PM (wBaKQ)
----
Fun isn't it! The shooting I mean.

Posted by: Weasel at March 31, 2019 08:46 PM (MVjcR)

178 26 How do shooters account for gravity over long distances (the bullet dropping)? Is it significant over 1000 yards?

Posted by: Ignoramus at March 31, 2019 07:16 PM (1UZdv)

Here's a classic freshman physics problem that demonstrates the gravity aspect of exterior ballistics (now there's a term Weasel stayed away from tonight!):

https://tinyurl.com/y6bkuryz

Posted by: Gref at March 31, 2019 08:47 PM (AMIL/)

179 All right - I commented a few weeks ago that my
Saiga 7.62x39 is the loudest firearm I ever shot.I would like at least a
comment or two in reply...

Posted by: Spankmeister at March 31, 2019 08:41 PM (dn8lZ)

---
come to the range with me: we can compare it to the 445 Super Mag, the Barrett 416, the Steyr 460, the Weatherby 300 mag, and others...

might just be the muzzle brake on it, directing the gas more towards you.

Posted by: redc1c4 at March 31, 2019 08:48 PM (rf8q9)

180 just how often should I be cleaning my pistols?

Posted by: nurse ratched at March 31, 2019 08:45 PM (PkVlr)
----
I'm the worst person in the world to ask, because I'm notoriously lazy! Some clean them every time they shoot and others, well, less often. I think if a little more attention inside the chamber will fix you right up now that you know what to look for.

Posted by: Weasel at March 31, 2019 08:49 PM (MVjcR)

181 Consistency is the hobgoblin of small minds, someone famous said, according to one of my TAs.

Posted by: Alexandria Occasional-Cortex at March 31, 2019 08:49 PM (DMUuz)

182 Just FYI. Cabelas and Bass Pro are having a sale on Ruger soft but padded cases for scoped 10/22 rifles. They would work for any similar sized guns like a Marlin 60 or 795. They are 40 inches long. Usually 25 bucks, the sale price is 20.00 It is item number IK-225031.

I haven't seen them yet but the reviews are 4.8 out of 5 stars. I'm checking them in the next day or two. I want to better protect my guns on the way to the range, so they should be worth it.

Posted by: JTB at March 31, 2019 08:49 PM (bmdz3)

183 168 All right - I commented a few weeks ago that my Saiga 7.62x39 is the loudest firearm I ever shot.I would like at least a comment or two in reply...

I guess I could argue with you that you're wrong but I have no idea how loud that particular gun is or what others you have shot. Of course, lack of facts is usually no problem for me. Barely an inconvenience really.

Posted by: Bob the Bilderberg at March 31, 2019 08:50 PM (qc+VF)

184 Back to more mundane things. Prepped and loaded a bunch of .45 ACP this week with lead round nose. Ugly big f*ckers, but the epitome of deadly, hearkening back to the old days. And on a good day, you can see them going down range.

Posted by: RI Red at March 31, 2019 08:50 PM (wBaKQ)

185 Posted by: Glen the deplorable lurker at March 31, 2019 08:45 PM (3rAnC)
----
If it were me? Hands down single stage. It is the best way to learn in my opinion. If you're interesting in starting to reload, tune in next week! You're also welcome to email me anytime. link in nic.

Posted by: Weasel at March 31, 2019 08:54 PM (MVjcR)

186 Then there is spin

https://www.physicsforums.com/threads/coriolis-force-on-a-bullet.380187/

Posted by: Jean at March 31, 2019 08:54 PM (25Dt7)

187 Good post and thread!

I handload using a single stage. Never felt the need to use anything else.

I originally got into it to make homemade 30.06 rounds for my M1 that would mimic USGI as close as I could. It was hard for me to find that ammo when the CMP was out of stock. It's a lot of fun and I found enjoyment in home brew .45 ACP loads.

Just stay focused when you're doing it. No distractions. Too easy to double charge a round if you aren't paying attention.

Posted by: WitchDoktor, as if you give a damn at March 31, 2019 08:55 PM (IfYaq)

188 Good stuff as always, Weasel.

Posted by: Insomniac at March 31, 2019 08:56 PM (NWiLs)

189 Glen, there is so much that you can f*uck up, I only use a single stage RCBS Rock Chucker. A lot to be said for repeatability and accuracy.
For simple minds like me, a single variable change in the process is controllable. Anything else invites chaos.

Posted by: RI Red at March 31, 2019 08:57 PM (wBaKQ)

190 Take a look at QuickLOAD software.

The goal was to have recommendations to, say, load a .300 WinMag Remington 700 with the most accurate load. So which speed powder? What sort of powder shape (cylindrical, spherical, etc.)? Projectile? Best brand of primer?

Nothing beats empirical evidence when it comes to determining barrel harmonics.

I was hoping that crowd sourcing load data and field results it would provide the answer.

Posted by: Blue Bird of F'ing Joy at March 31, 2019 08:46 PM (lD3vL)
-------
Loads will always vary from gun to gun. My match barrels are cut from consecutive lengths of barrel stock and they still have slightly different loads. The software I mentioned allows you to run predictive tests based on all the variables you mentioned that you can later test in the field.

Posted by: Weasel at March 31, 2019 08:57 PM (MVjcR)

191 Second (or third) the rec on The Highwaymen.

Also first time I learned about Hillary's precursor, Gov Ma Ferguson.

Posted by: votermom certified russian matryoshka bot at March 31, 2019 08:59 PM (dm05u)

192 redc1c4 - got it! Thanks.

Love the Officers Guide quote.

One of the smartest (okay, maybe the only smart) ensign I ever knew approached a Master Chief on his first day at his new assignment and said to him something akin to -"Chief, you and I both know I don't know shit. Please teach me and keep me out of trouble."

He probably made a fine leader eventually.

Posted by: Tonypete at March 31, 2019 08:59 PM (Y4EXg)

193 He probably made a fine leader eventually.

Clearly didn't make Admiral

Posted by: Jean at March 31, 2019 09:00 PM (25Dt7)

194 173 ... My vote for a beginner is for the single stage press. Used properly, you can't make dangerous mistakes. I prefer to assemble the tools needed seperately rather than a 'kit' approach.

Nothing wrong with RCBS but I have always had good results with Lee Precision presses and dies. Even the lightest C shape press, their least expensive, will handle any cases you might use.

One other suggestion, prime the cases with a handheld priming tool. The RCBS Universal hand priming tool is excellent.

Posted by: JTB at March 31, 2019 09:01 PM (bmdz3)

195 189 Glen, there is so much that you can f*uck up, I only use a single stage RCBS Rock Chucker. A lot to be said for repeatability and accuracy.
For simple minds like me, a single variable change in the process is controllable. Anything else invites chaos.

Posted by: RI Red at March 31, 2019 08:57 PM (wBaKQ)
-----
Couldn't have said it better. My first press was a multi-stage. I set it up and looked at it and took it apart and put it on the shelf. Never used it. Waaaaay too much going on!

Posted by: Weasel at March 31, 2019 09:02 PM (MVjcR)

196 Thank WitchDoktor and Insomniac! I appreciate your kind words, but it's really all of you all that make this fun and interesting. I just get the conversation started.

Posted by: Weasel at March 31, 2019 09:04 PM (MVjcR)

197 Thanks for the wisdom y'all. I'm a process driven feller, so the thought of a hobby that requires precision measurements, procedural discipline and, woo hoo, checklists gives me a tingle running up my leg.

Posted by: Glen the deplorable lurker at March 31, 2019 09:05 PM (3rAnC)

198 Nice content, Mr. Weasel. Except that NASA math thingie is triggering me something fierce.

Posted by: Cicero (@cicero) at March 31, 2019 09:06 PM (4knXT)

199 it's apocryphal, and likely invented, but who cares? it's fake but accurate.

back in they heyday of Usenet, people gave me shit for it, and i told them id stop using it when i stopped serving under officers who acted like they believed it.

funny thing: the complainers were all, supposedly, officers of one sort or another....

The quote in question, for those who didn't get the e-mail:

Enlisted men are stupid, but extremely cunning and sly, and bear considerable watching.

Army Officers Guide

Posted by: redc1c4 at March 31, 2019 09:06 PM (rf8q9)

200 Posted by: Cicero (@cicero) at March 31, 2019 09:06 PM (4knXT)
------
Thanks! I was pretty happy when I found that graphic.

Posted by: Weasel at March 31, 2019 09:08 PM (MVjcR)

201 TonyPete @ 192- That officer probably did turn out ok. Sad part is when an Ensign won't be advised by a 40 year old CPO. Been there, it won't purty.

Posted by: Eromero at March 31, 2019 09:08 PM (qBNEP)

202 Posted by: Tonypete at March 31, 2019 08:59 PM (Y4EXg)

---
PS: Weasel, MisHum and CBD can vouch for me, if there are privacy concerns.

and 4th class mail for printed material is cheap. we have a wide variety of triggering material available for your entertainment pleasure.

Posted by: redc1c4 at March 31, 2019 09:08 PM (rf8q9)

203 Sorry not sorry.
Posted by: Tonypete at March 31, 2019 08:17 PM

And the legend of The Phantom Magaziner was born.

Bravo Zulu!

Carry on.

Posted by: The Phantom Sh*tter at March 31, 2019 09:09 PM (DMUuz)

204 Couldn't have said it better. My first press was a
multi-stage. I set it up and looked at it and took it apart and put it
on the shelf. Never used it. Waaaaay too much going on!

Posted by: Weasel at March 31, 2019 09:02 PM (MVjcR)

---
can i have it?

Posted by: redc1c4 at March 31, 2019 09:10 PM (rf8q9)

205 197 Thanks for the wisdom y'all. I'm a process driven feller, so the thought of a hobby that requires precision measurements, procedural discipline and, woo hoo, checklists gives me a tingle running up my leg.

Posted by: Glen the deplorable lurker at March 31, 2019 09:05 PM (3rAnC)
-------
I think most will agree it's really a hobby unto itself!

Posted by: Weasel at March 31, 2019 09:12 PM (MVjcR)

206 i had a Spitoon Leader who decided that getting his Master's Degree on a Caturday, with his "roommate" in the audience, was more important than overseeing his change of command inventory.

he had a Report of Survey in the $35K range when he left.

he took the previous hand receipt at face value when he signed in, rather than do an inventory, *then* sign.

he never did his 10%s, or a yearly inventory either.

and nothing was secured.

and they promoted his dumb ass and gave him a command.

Posted by: redc1c4 at March 31, 2019 09:13 PM (rf8q9)

207 One other suggestion, prime the cases with a handheld priming tool. The RCBS Universal hand priming tool is excellent.

Posted by: JTB at March 31, 2019 09:01 PM (bmdz3)
-----
Absolutely agree.

Posted by: Weasel at March 31, 2019 09:13 PM (MVjcR)

208 Couple of tips on shooting AR-15s accurately:
1. Get rid of the MilSpec butt stock - which rattles around if you shake the rifle. Consistency is how you get accuracy and that rattling stock makes getting everything lined up the same way on every shot. I use a Magpul MOE, but any good aftermarket stock is better than what comes with your AR.

2. The AR has upper and lower receivers held together with pins. In order to shoot consistently you want the two receivers to line up the same way every shot. The way I do that is "hang" the dead weight of my trigger hand on the pistol grip.

3. Learn not to muscle the AR at the target, but let the rifle find its natural shooting position and correct your body so that the natural position has the rifle pointing at the bulls eye. Learning not to muscle the rifle onto target is particularly difficult with an AR, because of the temptation to use the pistol grip to change the point of aim. Your trigger hand needs to be a dead weight. As soon as you use the pistol grip to aim, you are messing up the alignment of the two parts of the rifle, and that messes up the linear recoil. When the recoil is not consistent your bullet will go where the physics of the bent rifle tell it to go, not where you want it to go.

Posted by: An Observation at March 31, 2019 09:14 PM (Sx4eG)

209 can i have it?
Posted by: redc1c4 at March 31, 2019 09:10 PM (rf8q9)
------
Sorry!

Posted by: Weasel at March 31, 2019 09:15 PM (MVjcR)

210 on every shot difficult

Posted by: An Observation at March 31, 2019 09:16 PM (Sx4eG)

211 So Ace has literally become a smart military blog.

Posted by: Lurking Lurker at March 31, 2019 09:16 PM (GKt8o)

212 Speaking of reloads, a little more cheese or peanut butter would be nice ...

Posted by: WeaselDog at March 31, 2019 09:17 PM (DMUuz)

213 Didn't "Stonewall" Jackson teach artillery? It wasn't that complicated.

Posted by: JAS at March 31, 2019 09:18 PM (KOCKb)

214 212 Speaking of reloads, a little more cheese or peanut butter would be nice ...

Posted by: WeaselDog at March 31, 2019 09:17 PM (DMUuz)
---------
I have learned to set aside an entire piece of ham for her when I make a sammich.

Posted by: Weasel at March 31, 2019 09:18 PM (MVjcR)

215 The cat has reloaded itself onto my lap.

Posted by: Alberta Oil Peon at March 31, 2019 09:18 PM (TfwlC)

216

My reloading right now is filling mags and cylinders.

Did a bunch of that this morning with the Woodsman and the Ruger Single Six. I do love plinking with the .22s.

Posted by: irongrampa at March 31, 2019 09:19 PM (KATBx)

217 Artillery calculations were the original computer app.
Developed by a Navy Gal!
Who knows her name?

Posted by: navybrat swimming upstream at March 31, 2019 09:19 PM (w7KSn)

218 63 Wondering how NZ Frank is doing, they are getting very serious on gun grabbing I think going house to house.
Here to do that it better be armoured vehicles and SWAT teams doijng it.
Posted by: Skip at March 31, 2019 07:39 PM (BbGew)

I'm still alive and am I fucking pissed off. A lot of misinformation out there as we are still awaiting our betters *spit* to hand down their decree. I predict massive non compliance.

Posted by: NZFrank withanM2 at March 31, 2019 09:23 PM (bgJ0E)

219 Did a bunch of that this morning with the Woodsman and the Ruger Single Six. I do love plinking with the .22s.

The Single Six is just a ridiculously fun little gun, isn't it? I have one that I don't shoot nearly enough, I guess because I feel like I should be using my limited range time more "productively" or something.

Posted by: Bob the Bilderberg at March 31, 2019 09:23 PM (qc+VF)

220 Grace Hopper?

Posted by: JAS at March 31, 2019 09:23 PM (KOCKb)

221 Glen, Keep in mind, a press, with only the slightest care, can last for a several lifetimes. I've been using mine for over 35 years.

Also, if you are a DIY type, there are a few items in the reloading hobby you can make. Case holders from scrap wood or powder measures from spent cases come to mind. It won't save much money but might be fun.

Posted by: JTB at March 31, 2019 09:23 PM (bmdz3)

222 Yeah my handloads always test lower SD velocity than factory loads. However, I haven't shown a correlation between SD and bench-fired precision yet, despite testing 1000s of rounds. (I analyze all my targets with OnTarget TDS.) Don't care too much, because my main goal in handloading is economy, not prize-winning.

Posted by: gp at March 31, 2019 09:24 PM (mk9aG)

223 Abucus Abby?

Posted by: RI Red at March 31, 2019 09:24 PM (wBaKQ)

224 Well done, JAS!

Posted by: navybrat swimming upstream at March 31, 2019 09:24 PM (w7KSn)

225 Artillery calculations were the original computer app.
Developed by a Navy Gal!
Who knows her name?

Would that have been (eventual) Commadore Grace Hopper?

Posted by: Bob the Bilderberg at March 31, 2019 09:25 PM (qc+VF)

226 OK, you got your range to target, your elevation, your charge, your time of detonation. That's all figured out.
Now, calculate for pitching seas.
Thank you, goodnight.

Posted by: navybrat swimming upstream at March 31, 2019 09:26 PM (w7KSn)

227 As someone wrote here not too long ago, the Horde has an immense knowledge. Nobody knows everything. But someone here knows a lot.

Posted by: JAS at March 31, 2019 09:26 PM (KOCKb)

228 But everyone here knows what they know.

Posted by: JAS at March 31, 2019 09:27 PM (KOCKb)

229 Weasel, what's the rifle and scope up yonder?

Posted by: RI Red at March 31, 2019 09:27 PM (wBaKQ)

230 In studying the theories on barrel harmonics I have reached the conclusion that what causes the problems is not the compression wave that travels up and down the barrel after the charge fires, but rather the surface wave that ripples up and down the surface of the bore. This wave travels at close to 1/2 the speed of the compression wave - which is why the compression wave theory almost seems to work, but the difference in the speed of the surface wave and the compression wave means the surface wave is not harmonically related to the compression wave and causes nulls that don't exactly match what compression wave barrel harmonics theory predicts.

Posted by: An Observation at March 31, 2019 09:27 PM (Sx4eG)

231 where's Mark?

Posted by: nurse ratched at March 31, 2019 09:28 PM (PkVlr)

232 OK, you got your range to target, your elevation, your charge, your time of detonation. That's all figured out.
Now, calculate for pitching seas.

"Jus' shoot up in here amongst us. One of has got to get some relief!"

-- Justin Wilson

Posted by: Bob the Bilderberg at March 31, 2019 09:29 PM (qc+VF)

233 Would that have been (eventual) Commadore Grace Hopper?
______
I think she wound up as Admiral Hopper.

Posted by: An Observation at March 31, 2019 09:29 PM (Sx4eG)

234 230 In studying the theories on barrel harmonics I have reached the conclusion that what causes the problems is not the compression wave that travels up and down the barrel after the charge fires, but rather the surface wave that ripples up and down the surface of the bore. This wave travels at close to 1/2 the speed of the compression wave - which is why the compression wave theory almost seems to work, but the difference in the speed of the surface wave and the compression wave means the surface wave is not harmonically related to the compression wave and causes nulls that don't exactly match what compression wave barrel harmonics theory predicts.
Posted by: An Observation at March 31, 2019 09:27 PM (Sx4eG)

Or in other words - bottleshock.

Posted by: NZFrank withanM2 at March 31, 2019 09:30 PM (bgJ0E)

235 Admiral Hopper, yes!
This is also the era of "bugs", as in, real organic insects, meeting their fate on the vacuum tubes.

Posted by: navybrat swimming upstream at March 31, 2019 09:30 PM (w7KSn)

236 Back in the day, (1985?) I went to an IEEE meeting where she gave a talk. Old gal. Dress uniform. Good time

Posted by: JAS at March 31, 2019 09:30 PM (KOCKb)

237 Did a bunch of that this morning with the Woodsman and the Ruger Single Six. I do love plinking with the .22s.

Posted by: irongrampa at March 31, 2019 09:19 PM (KATBx)
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Fun, isn't it?

Posted by: Weasel at March 31, 2019 09:31 PM (MVjcR)

238 NZ Frank-

So sorry to hear that. Any chance of canoe accidents or sending lots of parts out in the mail as 'Fragile China'
Can't imagine what I would do in but compliance in situations like that isn't in my nature.

Posted by: DBCooper at March 31, 2019 09:32 PM (bttOm)

239 Nood ONT

Posted by: JAS at March 31, 2019 09:32 PM (KOCKb)

240 irongrampa and Bob, My favorite plinking is with a 22 SA revolver. The Single-Six is great and the Heritage Rough Rider is both fun and easily affordable. But my Single-Ten has become my favorite. The better (for me) sights and the thinner gunfighter grips make the difference.

Posted by: JTB at March 31, 2019 09:33 PM (bmdz3)

241 I'm still alive and am I fucking pissed off. A lot of misinformation out there as we are still awaiting our betters *spit* to hand down their decree. I predict massive non compliance.

Posted by: NZFrank withanM2 at March 31, 2019 09:23 PM (bgJ0E)
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I'm sure we'd all appreciate your take on events as this goes along, Amigo.

Posted by: Weasel at March 31, 2019 09:33 PM (MVjcR)

242 I've tested fifteen different brands of 22LR with chronograph and target analysis. Trying to correlate SD velocity with precision, all I can say is, there's no simple correlation. Yeah, Thunderbolt is consistently bad in every way. But I knew _that_ before I ran 100 rounds past the chronograph.

For silhouette, I just use Fed Automatch, and it works fine. All the other guys use the fancy subsonic greasy euro-pills, and sometimes the extra oomph of an Automatch knocks down a borrego that a Tenex can't.

Posted by: gp at March 31, 2019 09:33 PM (mk9aG)

243 I'm still alive and am I fucking pissed off. A lot of misinformation out there as we are still awaiting our betters *spit* to hand down their decree. I predict massive non compliance.
Posted by: NZFrank withanM2 at March 31, 2019 09:23 PM (bgJ0E)

Is there any way to get vast numbers of Kiwis' e-mail addresses? If each of us here were to send a copy of the mosque shooter's manifesto to a thousand random Kiwis, and point out that triggering gun confiscation was exactly what he wanted, and that by doing so, your PM is effectively sucking his cock, perhaps some people would wake up.

Posted by: Alberta Oil Peon at March 31, 2019 09:33 PM (TfwlC)

244 Well, got a zero dark thirty wake up tomorrow, so calling it quits.
Thanks, Weasel, and all the other big brain Morons, for putting the knowledge. What a group!

Posted by: RI Red at March 31, 2019 09:36 PM (wBaKQ)

245 OK, everyone! ONT is up. Thanks so much for stopping by. I really mean it when I say you all make this fun. I will start an introduction to reloading next week that will likely run over a few weeks but promise not to monopolize the thread with it!

Posted by: Weasel at March 31, 2019 09:37 PM (MVjcR)

246 Weasel, Thanks for another wonderful gun thread.

It occurs to me to make a list of the tools used in basic reloading, everything from presses to funnels to scales. It could be fun trying to think of it all and would be handy when talking to others about reloading.

Posted by: JTB at March 31, 2019 09:38 PM (bmdz3)

247 Oh - and if I missed anyone's questions - please feel free to drop me a line.

Posted by: Weasel at March 31, 2019 09:38 PM (MVjcR)

248 Can't imagine what I would do in but compliance in situations like that isn't in my nature.
Posted by: DBCooper at March 31, 2019 09:32 PM (bttOm)

As we are still all awaiting the boom to be lowered, a few things I always knew have become most obvious to other people. The po po are basically criminally incompetent and have always had a anti gun agenda. Importing UK and Aust. senior cops into NZ has been worst than previously thought. The Coalition of Losers who currently make up our govt are full blown socialists and are driving hard left. The media are coming in their pants the utter cvnts. I have been turned into a instant criminal by a female who is a waste of skin, oxygen and rations.

Posted by: NZFrank withanM2 at March 31, 2019 09:41 PM (bgJ0E)

249 It occurs to me to make a list of the tools used in basic reloading, everything from presses to funnels to scales. It could be fun trying to think of it all and would be handy when talking to others about reloading.

Posted by: JTB at March 31, 2019 09:38 PM (bmdz3)
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Thanks JTB! And a list of what essentials to buy (and what not to buy) will be most of next week's content!

Posted by: Weasel at March 31, 2019 09:41 PM (MVjcR)

250 Oy too much going on each Sunday. Sorry I missed the living, vibrant gun thread. But I'll inject a little necromancy and do my usual wall of text in a sec.

Posted by: Mark Andrew Edwards, buy ammo at March 31, 2019 09:42 PM (xJa6I)

251 229 Weasel, what's the rifle and scope up yonder?

Posted by: RI Red at March 31, 2019 09:27 PM (wBaKQ)
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Sorry RI Red. It's just a pic I grabbed off the web. Looks like some sort of benchrest rig to me.

Posted by: Weasel at March 31, 2019 09:43 PM (MVjcR)

252 Posted by: NZFrank withanM2 at March 31, 2019 09:41 PM (bgJ0E)
--------
It's going to be very interesting to see how this plays out. I'm just surprised that our idiots didn't beat your idiots to the draw. Hang tough, brother.

Posted by: Weasel at March 31, 2019 09:47 PM (MVjcR)

253 Thanks for another great thread, Weasel.

Posted by: Bob the Bilderberg at March 31, 2019 09:47 PM (qc+VF)

254 Range Report:
Another 300 rounds through the SIG P320. No malfunctions of any kind, props to SIG, but I'm not loving the gun.

The reflex sight does make it quicker to hit with follow up shots but it seems, ironically, to make my accuracy worse- at least as far as fine accuracy. Everything is in a head-sized target at 7 yards. But I'm chasing the red dot instead of focusing on the sights, so my focus gets divided. Might just be a training and familarity issue.

The ProMag magazines are shit or the SIG is shit with them. The trigger simply doesn't reset after every shot, making this into almost a single action pistol. This isn't an issue with the 2 factory mags.

Optic point of impact seems to have drifted left during shooting too. Or that's how it seems. It's possibly I'm just not using the trigger right.

I don't know what more to say at this point. I have another 400 rounds to put through it but unless I see improvement, I may trade it for a Canik or Springfield XD with an optic instead.

Still, it was a VERY good day at the range over all. Much needed.

Posted by: Mark Andrew Edwards, buy ammo at March 31, 2019 09:47 PM (xJa6I)

255 I have also realized that part of the problem in shooting .22lr long ranges (300 yards) is that the ammo velocity changes with the temperature of the ammo. Of course .22lr has such drag problems from its low BC that air density changes in cold weather affect it quite a bit also.

Posted by: An Observation at March 31, 2019 09:48 PM (Sx4eG)

256 Thanks Weasel, I am toughing it out. If the worst happens they better have $160000 ready to pay me. Then I still have my long range rigs. And other things.....

Posted by: NZFrank withanM2 at March 31, 2019 09:49 PM (bgJ0E)

257 Good luck, Frank. Tell your neighbors and friends this: Anyone who sees A misuse his rights, and decides that is a good excuse to deprive B, C and D of those same rights, is a totalitarian. Period. End of story.

Came close to moving to NZ (South Island). It was on the agenda if the 2016 U.S. election had gone differently. National Party was in power then. I had no idea NZers were crazy enough to elect the fool you now have as PM. Could be worse, I guess. The U.S. elected the JEF twice, which has to be as least as stupid as electing Ardean.

The country is beautiful, and you have a lot of nice people there, but the leftist sentiment is very strong. I liked that your country was very devoted to the national religion, however. I didn't meet anyone who wasn't a fervently devout supporter of the All Blacks!

Once again, good luck!

Posted by: mac at April 01, 2019 08:53 AM (qxy/P)

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