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"It's Too Late for Charlie:" Gard's Parents Drop Petition to Treat Child, Stating That Endless Delays Have Pushed Charlie Past the Point Where Even Cutting-Edge Treatments Can Help

Once again, socialized medicine gets the preferred health outcome it was looking for.

Posted by: Ace at 12:23 PM




Comments

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1 Zaphod Beeblebrox medicine: Ignore a problem long enough and it goes away on its own.

Posted by: WitchDoktor, AKA VA GOP Sucks at July 24, 2017 12:23 PM (PFy0L)

2 up there!

Posted by: DanMan at July 24, 2017 12:24 PM (XTiHL)

3 And I'm very pissed that NHS sees Charlie as a problem for NHS and not a problem for Charlie and his parents.

Posted by: WitchDoktor, AKA VA GOP Sucks at July 24, 2017 12:24 PM (PFy0L)

4 Justice delayed, IS Justice denied...

Posted by: Don Q. at July 24, 2017 12:24 PM (NgKpN)

5 You can ignore making a decision but you you can't ignore the consequences of not making a decison.

Posted by: DanMan at July 24, 2017 12:26 PM (XTiHL)

6 Yes but Obamacare is much different.

No really, stop laughing.

Posted by: Lying Democrats at July 24, 2017 12:26 PM (zJ3L1)

7 So on what grounds did the NHS system and docs use that Charlies parents could not remove Him from their (non) care?
he'd die if ??__

I want to know How they could detain Charlie because of what legal reason?

Posted by: willow at July 24, 2017 12:28 PM (v12G8)

8 Well, we've now established that global liberals really do believe a child is a burden to be aborted or left to die.

Posted by: Marcus T at July 24, 2017 12:28 PM (zJ3L1)

9 Imagine having to file a petition to treat your child.

Oh, wait, we won't have to imagine that. Thanks, GOPe!

Posted by: t-bird at July 24, 2017 12:28 PM (2z74n)

10 That awful Sarah Palin woman! She's not our kind. She referred to dedicated public servants as "death panels"! How gauche.

Posted by: Your Betters in the GOP Establishment at July 24, 2017 12:29 PM (j+dfT)

11 It takes a village to, ummm..., never mind.

Posted by: Hillary! at July 24, 2017 12:29 PM (2z74n)

12 So the parents had to fight in court to actually get Charlie treated ?

I'm serious What grounds ould they use for delaying Charlies parents getting outside help
If not for death? and since He was dieing How could they get away with this?

Posted by: willow at July 24, 2017 12:29 PM (v12G8)

13 Hey ... Don't blame us. We just supply all the muscle to enforce things like this.

Posted by: Your Friendly Neighborhood Police at July 24, 2017 12:29 PM (Niu5G)

14 dying

Posted by: willow at July 24, 2017 12:30 PM (v12G8)

15 For me, nothing has been so infuriating in all this as reading feedback from the British public. Usually, the comments section at sites like Daily Mail is fairly right-leaning, but even there, when it came to poor Charlie, the parents were being absolutely excoriated for fighting the hospital, which apparently, in the eyes of their fellow Brits, is run by the most intelligent, compassionate people on Earth. Charlie's parents, it was said over and over again, ought to "do the right thing" and let their son die already.

I shouldn't blame them too much. It is only too clear that this attitude is the result of decades under a welfare state and the mind-warping that induces. But it is hard to come away with any conclusion except that the UK is now home to millions of soulless automatons who would rather the innocent perish than lose their own entitlements. Damn them all.

Posted by: T at July 24, 2017 12:30 PM (Vgw1E)

16 Death panels with government healthcare?? never!

Posted by: Chi-Town Jerry at July 24, 2017 12:30 PM (so+oy)

17 death fkn panels.

how sickening that we are here.

Posted by: willow at July 24, 2017 12:30 PM (v12G8)

18 There is no other outcome possible with nationalized medicine.

Posted by: Alex #11 at July 24, 2017 12:31 PM (ka13S)

19 It's horrifying that the Gard's parent had raised the money to come to the U.S. and get the treatment they wanted to try for their son. The U.S. had even said OK ahead of time.

There was literally nothing to lose to let Gard go. Nothing.

Well one thing - the power. If they had let Gard go, they would have lost political power.

And what's one sick infant when grappling with the loss of political power?

Posted by: MacGruber at July 24, 2017 12:31 PM (FEAjO)

20 May God bless his family.

Anything else I say will be justified cause for banning.

Posted by: alexthechick - where's my flag at July 24, 2017 12:31 PM (mf5HN)

21 this makes me seethe. our betters are fucking ghouls. the world truly sucks.

Posted by: chavez the hugo at July 24, 2017 12:32 PM (KP5rU)

22 Materialist morality leads to the culture of death.

Posted by: Alex #11 at July 24, 2017 12:32 PM (ka13S)

23 anyone know who was going to pay for the medical care the parents were seeking?

Posted by: Buzzsaw90 at July 24, 2017 12:32 PM (h/uSM)

24 so the UK citizens thinks the Stae have total authority over their Own life?

amazing and nuts.

So do they complain about state functions in any other way?
how could one Trust a state in This ?

Posted by: willow at July 24, 2017 12:32 PM (v12G8)

25 He'll never get sick again.

sarc/

Posted by: *Mikey NTH - Find the Dark Linings in the Silver Clouds at the Outrage Outlet! at July 24, 2017 12:32 PM (hLRSq)

26 Once again, socialized medicine gets the preferred health outcome it was looking for.

You are not - I repeat - you are *not* the customer in a socialized single payer system. You are a *cost*. the government is the customer and it gets what it pays for.

Always.

Posted by: Jeff Weimer at July 24, 2017 12:32 PM (fuyzl)

27 17 death fkn panels.

how sickening that we are here.
Posted by: willow at July 24, 2017 12:30 PM (v12G


Shit like these happens when people forget ScoggDog's Rule ...

... Any Power given to the State will be used against the Citizenry.

Posted by: ScoggDog at July 24, 2017 12:33 PM (Niu5G)

28 Great Ideas from the VA.

Posted by: NHS Assholes at July 24, 2017 12:33 PM (5wi0l)

29 Its not a death panel.

After all, it was a committee.

Posted by: Some Death Committee at July 24, 2017 12:33 PM (eSx+E)

30 ugh, this is terrifying that the citizen of the UK find this acceptable.

Posted by: willow at July 24, 2017 12:33 PM (v12G8)

31 There was literally nothing to lose to let Gard go. Nothing.

Well one thing - the power. If they had let Gard go, they would have lost political power.

---

unless somehow the treatment worked. Then the NHS looks bad and they have to offer this treatment to others.

Posted by: Buzzsaw90 at July 24, 2017 12:33 PM (h/uSM)

32 So if this were one of Prince Williams Children do you think the Courts would have done what they have done to this Family?

Posted by: It's me donna at July 24, 2017 12:33 PM (O2RFr)

33 We are so pro-choice and you h8rs need to shut up and get over it!

Posted by: Democrats Who Cheer the News at July 24, 2017 12:34 PM (psH+N)

34 The ultimate fate of a nation of subjects.

Posted by: Brother Cavil, Abbot of St. Costello-on-the-Hurlingbone at July 24, 2017 12:34 PM (AM1GF)

35 My heart breaks for those parents and their sweet little baby.

Will the boy at least be allowed to go home to die?

Posted by: Jane D'oh at July 24, 2017 12:34 PM (PY9jH)

36 See, we told you it was hopeless.

Posted by: NHS at July 24, 2017 12:34 PM (df+Zi)

37 Scogg I try to tell people that all .the.time!

what stupid shits we are.

Posted by: willow at July 24, 2017 12:34 PM (v12G8)

38 Fistbump, NHS.

Posted by: VA at July 24, 2017 12:34 PM (yL25O)

39 And yet.... Great Britain supposedly has no Death Penalty...

Posted by: Don Q. at July 24, 2017 12:35 PM (NgKpN)

40 Say what you will, but the UK health system can manage the clock better than Andy Reid

Posted by: Rick in SK at July 24, 2017 12:35 PM (FZYNt)

41 You are not - I repeat - you are *not* the customer in a socialized single payer system. You are a *cost*. the government is the customer and it gets what it pays for.

Always.
Posted by: Jeff Weimer at July 24, 2017 12:32 PM (fuyzl)

This is a wonderful, succinct explanation.

Others must die so that they may consume.

Posted by: Alex #11 at July 24, 2017 12:35 PM (ka13S)

42 got any pieces you don't need?

Posted by: Planned Parenthood at July 24, 2017 12:35 PM (h/uSM)

43 Little white boy wasn't strong enough to survive on his own.

At least our rich diversity will not threatened by this little infidel in training and his culturally insensitive parents.

Posted by: London Mayor Mohamed Mohamed Ahmed Mohamed at July 24, 2017 12:35 PM (j+dfT)

44 My heart breaks for those parents and their sweet little baby.

Will the boy at least be allowed to go home to die?
Posted by: Jane D'oh at July 24, 2017 12:34 PM (PY9jH)

oh hell maybe they will use his body to warm some living persons home!

gack. so very mad, fk them.
and fk our leaders also

Posted by: willow at July 24, 2017 12:35 PM (v12G8)

45 anyone know who was going to pay for the medical care the parents were seeking?
Posted by: Buzzsaw90 at July 24, 2017 12:32 PM (h/uSM)



The parents raised well over a million dollars for his treatment. They were going to pay for it.

Posted by: alexthechick - where's my flag at July 24, 2017 12:35 PM (mf5HN)

46 Posted by: T at July 24, 2017 12:30 PM (Vgw1E)

Daily Mail often gets infested by Leftist trolls and arrow-bots. You can tell whenever there's lopsided numbers like 3000 to 20, in favor of some kind of lunatic leftoid position.

Posted by: Cato the Rebel Without a Party at July 24, 2017 12:35 PM (X52ZZ)

47 The NHS is just disappointed they weren't able to abort poor little Charlie.

Evil scum.

Posted by: Jane D'oh at July 24, 2017 12:35 PM (PY9jH)

48 >>>>>You can ignore making a decision but you you can't ignore the consequences of not making a decison.
.
.
.Not making a decision is still making a decision according to my Drill Sargent in Boot Camp.

Posted by: The Great White Scotsman at July 24, 2017 12:35 PM (0pcwX)

49 I want to know How they could detain Charlie because of what legal reason?"

Seriously?

He's a subject. Nothing more.

Posted by: Anon a mouse... at July 24, 2017 12:35 PM (MINbv)

50 We must have socialized health care so we can make sure no one is denied treatment! --The left in America

We must let the government choose who will get treatment, and who won't. --The left in Britain.

Posted by: 18-1 at July 24, 2017 12:35 PM (eSx+E)

51 this thread is such ban bait.

I hope Trump brings it up. we *need* to turn US taxpayer sentiment against this scheme.

Posted by: Boulder terlit hobo at July 24, 2017 12:35 PM (zdIDH)

52 But UK doctors are lobbying the NHS to pay for uterus transplants for transgendered women. Priorities.

Posted by: Mx4 at July 24, 2017 12:36 PM (Tn2PT)

53
Britain -maintaining the statist quo over all else.

Posted by: Slippery Slope Salesman at July 24, 2017 12:36 PM (EgwCt)

54 Death panels.

What is next? Runners and Sandmen?

Posted by: The Mouse that Roared at July 24, 2017 12:36 PM (DxWUs)

55 How do the parents know this? Are either of them M.D.s?

Posted by: Steve and Cold Bear at July 24, 2017 12:36 PM (xAvrH)

56 I am willing to bet that John Paul II would not have approached the Gard case with the shrugged shoulders and watery words of Frankie Fabulous.

Posted by: Mary Poppins' Practically Perfect Piercing at July 24, 2017 12:36 PM (X6fMO)

57 if poor charlie was mooselimb, he would be undergoing treatment already. never ending stories of the fight in little achmed. fucking assholes.

Posted by: chavez the hugo at July 24, 2017 12:36 PM (KP5rU)

58 Melania needs to have a picture released of her sitting gracefully and looking stunning while holding a #somethingsomethingCharlie sign.

Posted by: Democrats Who Cheer the News at July 24, 2017 12:36 PM (psH+N)

59 I'm running out of paper here.

Posted by: St. Peter - PG Security at July 24, 2017 12:36 PM (mcI77)

60 we must have national; health care to make sure everyone gets abortions and free pills
just take the pill as you've been told!

Posted by: willow at July 24, 2017 12:36 PM (v12G8)

61 Furthermore, the ideal response from Trump--and I realize that for reasons of Realpolitik, he can't do this, but it's what I would like--would be to declare that if the British government stands behind the actions of Ormond Hospital, then it has ceased to be a legitimate government. Forget however many centuries old the Crown and other institutions are, forget whether or not it was democratically elected. A government which rules that you do not have the right to try and save your child's life, whether on grounds of financial inconvenience to the state or some pleasant-sounding window dressing like "human rights," has broken the ultimate reason for its existence and therefore has lost any claim on the obedience of its supposed subjects. That is what I would like the Trump administration--or someone--to say, even though they can't.

Posted by: T at July 24, 2017 12:36 PM (Vgw1E)

62 There are no words for the hatred I feel for the NHS.

God bless little Charlie Gard.

Posted by: mpfs, Kiss Kiss..Bang Bang at July 24, 2017 12:36 PM (rqbGC)

63 ... Any Power given to the State will be used against the Citizenry.

Posted by: ScoggDog at July 24, 2017 12:33 PM (Niu5G)

That's the nature of human beings with power.

Any power granted will be abused.

It's not an if, it's a when.

The only winning move is not to play. Don't grant any powers you don't have to.

Posted by: Cato the Rebel Without a Party at July 24, 2017 12:36 PM (X52ZZ)

64 Darn socks.

Posted by: Hate Has No Homo at July 24, 2017 12:37 PM (psH+N)

65 resistance is futile

Posted by: NHS at July 24, 2017 12:37 PM (h/uSM)

66 In a socialized system, theoretically everyone gets an equal share of the pie of goods. Reduce the number of people and you get more goods...

Posted by: 18-1 at July 24, 2017 12:37 PM (eSx+E)

67 Should have taken an aspirin months ago.

Posted by: Disgraced Ex-Prez'nit Toonces at July 24, 2017 12:37 PM (vtcmf)

68 And I'm waiting for anyone in the MSM to ask any Democratic politician where they stand on the parental rights issues regarding this case.

Posted by: OregonMuse, AoSHQ Thought Leader at July 24, 2017 12:37 PM (gJput)

69
I hope Trump brings it up. we *need* to turn US taxpayer sentiment against this scheme.

Yes he should today as one of the horror stories he's supposed to tell regarding obozocare... use it as a "Do you want that here?"

Posted by: It's me donna at July 24, 2017 12:37 PM (O2RFr)

70 the UK has subjects, not citizens.

guess this case was an illustration of the concept.

Posted by: Boulder terlit hobo at July 24, 2017 12:37 PM (zdIDH)

71 Still. It's better than sex.

Posted by: Ziwe Fumudoh at July 24, 2017 12:37 PM (qQq11)

72 "23 anyone know who was going to pay for the medical care the parents were seeking?"

His parents crowd funded close to $2 million.

Posted by: DanMan at July 24, 2017 12:37 PM (XTiHL)

73 45 anyone know who was going to pay for the medical care the parents were seeking?
Posted by: Buzzsaw90 at July 24, 2017 12:32 PM (h/uSM)


The parents raised well over a million dollars for his treatment. They were going to pay for it.
Posted by: alexthechick - where's my flag at July 24, 2017 12:35 PM (mf5HN)

---

since you won't be need that now...

Posted by: NHS at July 24, 2017 12:37 PM (h/uSM)

74 30 ugh, this is terrifying that the citizen of the UK find this acceptable.
Posted by: willow at July 24, 2017 12:33 PM (v12G


Then prepare to REALLY lose your shit ...

... many Citizens of the USA find this acceptable as well.

This - like so many other things we fight about amongst ourselves - comes down to two simple things.

1 - What, if anything, does the Citizen owe the State
2 - What, if anything, does the Citizen owe the neighbor

Posted by: ScoggDog at July 24, 2017 12:38 PM (Niu5G)

75 Has Obama released a statement yet? Like how he's sorry the parents were punished with a defective baby?

Oops. Just gave myself a mild rage headache.

Posted by: Jane D'oh at July 24, 2017 12:38 PM (PY9jH)

76 Leftist trolls and arrow-bots"

No, it's the current British population. When the topic is NHS, the reply is "it's free".

When the quality of care is actually mentioned, the reply is "it's free"

When results are cataloged, the reply is "it's free".

Kind of a one note song...

Posted by: Anon a mouse... at July 24, 2017 12:38 PM (MINbv)

77 41 You are not - I repeat - you are *not* the customer in a socialized single payer system. You are a *cost*. the government is the customer and it gets what it pays for.

Always.
Posted by: Jeff Weimer at July 24, 2017 12:32 PM (fuyzl)

This is a wonderful, succinct explanation.

Others must die so that they may consume.
Posted by: Alex #11 at July 24, 2017 12:35 PM (ka13S)

Wow.... great observation...

I'm in IT, and I tell people CONSTANTLY that no product is really free....

If you are not the PAYING Customer, you are the PRODUCT...

That fits for Socialized Medicine as well...

Posted by: Don Q. at July 24, 2017 12:38 PM (NgKpN)

78 >>You can ignore making a decision but you you can't ignore the consequences of not making a decison.


That doesn't fit the rhyme scheme.

Posted by: Geddy Lee at July 24, 2017 12:38 PM (qQq11)

79 75 Has Obama released a statement yet? Like how he's sorry the parents were punished with a defective baby?

Oops. Just gave myself a mild rage headache.
Posted by: Jane D'oh

O figures if Baby Charlie was American that the greedy doctors would have removed his tonsils and chopped his feet off already

Posted by: Rick in SK at July 24, 2017 12:39 PM (FZYNt)

80 nhs needen't have spent one more dollar on Charlie, He could have received treatment for no cost to them.
He likely would have died, Yet the fact this came to be about denying the NHS (styate) power, its so offensive.
grr

ok i'm going to trim trees or something
I can't rationally type about this anymore today.

just fk them, and srsly fk our leaders that are putting us into the same system

Posted by: willow at July 24, 2017 12:39 PM (v12G8)

81 You wouldn't listen. Told ya so.

Posted by: Sarah Palin at July 24, 2017 12:39 PM (mcI77)

82 Imagine having to file a petition to treat your child.

Remember that Denzel Washington socialized medicine agitprop "John Q"? Denzel is an everyman worker whose job dropped him from full time to part time. As part of that drop, his health insurance policy is changed as well. Denzel finds out his son needs a heart transplant, but his health insurance won't cover it and he's left trying to raise $75,000 to get his kid on the donor list.

The hospital keeps Denzel's kid for a while, but eventually releases him. Denzel then walks into the hospital with a gun to demand treatment.

The whole thing is designed to make you think socialized medicine would be better. But reality says socialized medicine is worse. In reality charities could have helped Denzel's kid. In socialized medicine, as we see, they will prevent treatment *even if you can pay*, if they so choose.

Posted by: bonhomme at July 24, 2017 12:39 PM (jhqr1)

83 I'm stating the obvious here but once the government controls your healthcare they control your life.
And this should be Exhibit #1 in the argument against the government doing so.

Posted by: LGoPs at July 24, 2017 12:39 PM (FJr2+)

84 I wonder if Charlie's parents will continue to be subjects of the British government, or if they'll move elsewhere seeing how their government sentenced their baby to die.

Posted by: josephistan at July 24, 2017 12:39 PM (7HtZB)

85 ... many Citizens of the USA find this acceptable as well.
***
Most people want a fair master, not freedom.

This is why the State Media in Britain and the FNM here spend so much effort downplaying the incompetence of the government. If the LIVs consistently saw that the government can't run their lives in a good way their opinions would change...

Posted by: 18-1 at July 24, 2017 12:40 PM (eSx+E)

86 many Citizens of the USA find this acceptable as well

At least half.

Posted by: Disgraced Ex-Prez'nit Toonces at July 24, 2017 12:40 PM (vtcmf)

87 >>>You are not - I repeat - you are *not* the customer in a socialized single payer system. You are a *cost*. the government is the customer and it gets what it pays for.

Always.
Posted by: Jeff Weimer at July 24, 2017 12:32 PM (fuyzl)


This.

A million times, this.

Posted by: T at July 24, 2017 12:40 PM (Vgw1E)

88 The British elites are exactly like our Betters. They will always have the very best health care our tax dollars can afford them.

Including McCain. And I'll just stop there.

Posted by: Jane D'oh at July 24, 2017 12:40 PM (PY9jH)

89 If you live in gubmint housing, you are not a citizen. You are a serf.

The Brits still haven't figured that out. The serfs resent the existence of the few free people left there.

Posted by: JAS at July 24, 2017 12:41 PM (UnDQI)

90 72 "23 anyone know who was going to pay for the medical care the parents were seeking?"

His parents crowd funded close to $2 million.
Posted by: DanMan at July 24, 2017 12:37 PM (XTiHL)

O/T.... but what a thought....

Could the US Crowd Fund building the border Wall?????

Posted by: Don Q. at July 24, 2017 12:41 PM (NgKpN)

91 >>>>
Leftist trolls and arrow-bots"



No, it's the current British population. When the topic is NHS, the reply is "it's free".



When the quality of care is actually mentioned, the reply is "it's free"



When results are cataloged, the reply is "it's free".



Kind of a one note song...
.
.
.And when that one guy had to resort to pulling his bad tooth with pliers at home by himself because he could not get a dentist appointment, at least it was free.

Posted by: The Great White Scotsman at July 24, 2017 12:41 PM (0pcwX)

92 Don't fear the gub'mint reaper.

Posted by: Disgraced Ex-Prez'nit Toonces at July 24, 2017 12:41 PM (vtcmf)

93 I've had enough of this thread.

If there is a hell, may Ormond Hospital burn.

Posted by: Mary Poppins' Practically Perfect Piercing at July 24, 2017 12:41 PM (X6fMO)

94 OT: that thing in JJ's morning dump about a "red team" on "climate change" at the EPA.

Not that it's stunning news, but confirmation that actual science and scientific method are now officially forgotten/abandoned.

One doesn't need a "skeptical" "red team" in science - science itself is a rigorous skepticism about hypotheses that is pushed back but never extinguished by evidence consisting of repeatable empirical results from testing the hypotheses.

The intel community's red/blue team exercise on the Soviet strategic missile issue was very different - shaking up the institutional inertia of judgements about intel information concerning human behavior and intentions of a closed hostile adversary state.

The illogical, counter-scientific method on which AGW nonsense is based has now been internalized. The burden here is logically and entirely on those advancing the rather outlandish hypothesis that human activity is affecting climate - their burden is to demonstrate that what is being seen is not natural variation, variation that is known to be the norm for the planet based on the geologic record and other unambiguous hard data. The red/blue team thing sort of validates the departure from logic and scientific method.

Posted by: rhomboid at July 24, 2017 12:41 PM (QDnY+)

95 Lords up, serfs down.

Posted by: Insomniac, Professional Nobody at July 24, 2017 12:41 PM (0mRoj)

96 then it has ceased to be a legitimate government."

Ah, we've already covered that ground.

"When in the Course of Human Events..."

Posted by: Anon a mouse... at July 24, 2017 12:41 PM (MINbv)

97 72 "23 anyone know who was going to pay for the medical care the parents were seeking?"

His parents crowd funded close to $2 million.
Posted by: DanMan at July 24, 2017 12:37 PM (XTiHL)

I wonder what happens to the money now that they've given up the fight?

Posted by: Jack Sock at July 24, 2017 12:42 PM (0XyIg)

98 Not making a decision is still making a decision according to my Drill Sargent in Boot Camp.

Posted by: The Great White Scotsman at July 24, 2017 12:35 PM (0pcwX)

Also features in the Rush song Freewill: "If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice."

Posted by: Cato the Rebel Without a Party at July 24, 2017 12:42 PM (X52ZZ)

99 48 >>>>>You can ignore making a decision but you you can't ignore the consequences of not making a decison.
.
.
.Not making a decision is still making a decision according to my Drill Sargent in Boot Camp.
Posted by: The Great White Scotsman at July 24, 2017 12:35 PM (0pcwX)

Also according to Geddy Lee.

Posted by: Insomniac, Professional Nobody at July 24, 2017 12:42 PM (0mRoj)

100 That ghoul, Zeke Emmanuel, stated that once people have reached the age of 70, they have "outlived their usefulness" and become a "burden to their families."

Know what that means?

You first, you evil bastard.

Posted by: Jane D'oh at July 24, 2017 12:42 PM (PY9jH)

101 * looks up, irritated, sighs *

What is it this time, Barry?

* listens, shakes head, interrupts *

No, Barry this probably isn't the best time to give your "brother's keeper" speech. Why don't you go see if there's something funny on TV?

Posted by: Valerie Jarrett at July 24, 2017 12:42 PM (j+dfT)

102 And yet if the parents were to hit the doctors with a chair and then stab them with their own scalpels, the parents would be the ones getting in trouble.

Posted by: Mark Andrew Edwards at July 24, 2017 12:43 PM (3OIiX)

103 Charlie Don't Serf

Posted by: garrett at July 24, 2017 12:43 PM (qQq11)

104 The whole thing is designed to make you think socialized medicine would
be better. But reality says socialized medicine is worse
***
Ultimately someone has to pay for everything. Fans of socialized medicine wave this problem away but it is why government control of health care can't work, even if government was inherently corrupt. All it means is making the laws of supply and demand harder to see.

An analogy I've used with people is housing. If the government had to buy everyone a dwelling...how would that work out? How high would your taxes go? Would the people in the big houses in the nice neighbors be you...or the people connected to the politicians and the famous?

Posted by: 18-1 at July 24, 2017 12:43 PM (eSx+E)

105 8 >>>>>You can ignore making a decision but you you can't ignore the consequences of not making a decison.
.
.
.Not making a decision is still making a decision according to my Drill Sargent in Boot Camp.
Posted by: The Great White Scotsman at July 24, 2017 12:35 PM (0pcwX)

Also according to Geddy Lee.
Posted by: Insomniac, Professional Nobody at July 24, 2017 12:42 PM (0mRoj)

Heh, was thinking that too.

Posted by: Mark Andrew Edwards at July 24, 2017 12:43 PM (3OIiX)

106 "It's Too Late for Charlie:" Gard's Parents Drop Petition to Treat Child, Stating That Endless Delays Have Pushed Charlie Past the Point Where Even Cutting-Edge Treatments Can Help


Yay, single-payer!

Preview of coming attractions.

Posted by: Deplorable Jay Guevara at July 24, 2017 12:44 PM (SRKgf)

107 Charlie is just a line in a spreadsheet.

Posted by: Sarah Palin at July 24, 2017 12:44 PM (mcI77)

108 Also according to Geddy Lee.

Posted by: Insomniac, Professional Nobody at July 24, 2017 12:42 PM (0mRoj)

Actually Geddy just sings it, Neil Peart wrote it, and Alex Lifeson plays guitar really well.

Posted by: The Mouse that Roared at July 24, 2017 12:44 PM (DxWUs)

109
Can't fight fascist city hall.

Posted by: Guy Mohawk at July 24, 2017 12:44 PM (r+sAi)

110 The ghouls win.

Posted by: Lizzy at July 24, 2017 12:44 PM (NOIQH)

111 Forty thousand men and women every day. You can be like they are.

Posted by: Disgraced Ex-Prez'nit Toonces at July 24, 2017 12:44 PM (vtcmf)

112 The red/blue team thing sort of validates the departure from logic and scientific method.

Posted by: rhomboid at July 24, 2017 12:41 PM (QDnY+)

Sadly, it does... but...

That already is the State of 'Science'... its already there.

To NOT fight back, means there is no way to ever get BACK to real science as a driver of policy.

Posted by: Don Q. at July 24, 2017 12:45 PM (NgKpN)

113 >>You can ignore making a decision but you you can't ignore the consequences of not making a decison.


For NHS in this situation, I'm thinking that's a feature, not a bug.

Posted by: Lizzy at July 24, 2017 12:46 PM (NOIQH)

114 74 30 ugh, this is terrifying that the citizen of the UK find this acceptable.

Posted by: willow at July 24, 2017 12:33 PM (v12G


Well, England is slowly but surely becoming a de facto Muslim nation, and most British citizens appear to be OK with that, too.

Posted by: OregonMuse, AoSHQ Thought Leader at July 24, 2017 12:46 PM (gJput)

115 111
Forty thousand men and women every day. You can be like they are.


Posted by: Disgraced Ex-Prez'nit Toonces at July 24, 2017 12:44 PM (vtcmf)

Needs more cowbell

Posted by: The Mouse that Roared at July 24, 2017 12:46 PM (DxWUs)

116 Charlie Don't Serf

Posted by: garrett at July 24, 2017 12:43 PM (qQq11)


Americans Don't Serf needs to be our rallying cry!

Posted by: LGoPs at July 24, 2017 12:46 PM (FJr2+)

117 Posted by: Geddy Lee at July 24, 2017 12:38 PM (qQq11)

Don't it suck when you do a really good sock ... people just ignore it ... then go riffing on your idea. Yeah - I know.

Posted by: ScoggDog at July 24, 2017 12:47 PM (Niu5G)

118
"Can we have his liver, then?"

- - Planned Parenthood

Posted by: J.J. Sefton at July 24, 2017 12:47 PM (mbhDw)

119 And when that one guy had to resort to pulling his bad tooth with pliers at home by himself because he could not get a dentist appointment, at least it was free.

I used an ice skate and a rock.

Posted by: Tom Hanks at July 24, 2017 12:47 PM (jhqr1)

120 unless somehow the treatment worked. Then the NHS looks bad and they have to offer this treatment to others.
___________________

Probably not this particular treatment, since the baby's condition was pretty rare.

What they were probably worried about was other Brits, with more common ailments, wanting to fly to other countries that offer more cutting-edge treatments than those offered by the NHS.

Can't have people doing research online and thinking for themselves, like Charlie's parents did. They might start thinking that they are the ones who should be in control of their medical decisions, instead of the bureaucrats.

And who knows where that might lead . . . .

Posted by: TrivialPursuer at July 24, 2017 12:47 PM (IBcGJ)

121 And all the Leftist Ghouls dance around their Death Idols.

And John Podesta gets another Baby-Meat Pizza to eat.

Posted by: Hikaru at July 24, 2017 12:47 PM (CMbMd)

122 Usually, the comments section at sites like Daily Mail is fairly right-leaning, but even there, when it came to poor Charlie, the parents were being absolutely excoriated for fighting the hospital, which apparently, in the eyes of their fellow Brits, is run by the most intelligent, compassionate people on Earth.


It's not that. It's that Brits view the NHS as a national resource to be used for the greatest good of all.

A relative's aunt who had been a nurse in the NHS was diagnosed with breast cancer when she was 70 something, past the age when the NHS would treat it. She was OK with it; she said she'd had her time, and she supported the decision to give her only palliative care and instead devote the resources to, e.g., vaccinating kids.

So the perspective there is totally different from here.

Posted by: Deplorable Jay Guevara at July 24, 2017 12:48 PM (SRKgf)

123 40,000 Headmen

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JwY4E5e5150

Posted by: TRAFFIC at July 24, 2017 12:48 PM (qQq11)

124 >>Know what that means?


According to Zeke, Al Gore can now do his part to save Gaia with assisted suicide?

Posted by: Lizzy at July 24, 2017 12:48 PM (NOIQH)

125 Really, I don't see any way we don't eventually get single payer.

Once ObamaCare gave a much bigger swath of people the free shit, that was it. No politician will ever have the balls to cut them off and the rest of us will forever pay out the nose.

Posted by: publix at July 24, 2017 12:48 PM (LHzKO)

126 I'm a doctor who hates the idea of socialized medicine more than you. BUT. Whether socialized or private insured, if you aren't willing to deny experimental treatment to those with an incurable genetic disease that is incompatible with life, then where would you draw the line? I'm not defending the NHS management of the situation which was infuriating, but this kid was never going to survive no matter what was done. If the parents wanted to pay for futile care they should have been allowed to do so, but I can't see using this as a weapon against socialized medicine. If I owned an insurance company I wouldn't want to cover it either. And as a moral issue, there is an argument that prolonging his life was inhumane.

Posted by: Scalpe at July 24, 2017 12:49 PM (Atrbe)

127 116 Charlie Don't Serf

Posted by: garrett at July 24, 2017 12:43 PM (qQq11)

Americans Don't Serf needs to be our rallying cry!

Posted by: LGoPs at July 24, 2017 12:46 PM (FJr2+)

But we already are. Have a job? Try not paying income taxes. Own a house? Try not paying property taxes. Own a car? Silly boy, try not paying the sales tax, annual registration and, depending on your state, an annual inspection tag.

Posted by: Insomniac - Not Disappointed, Just Angry at July 24, 2017 12:49 PM (0mRoj)

128 It's not that. It's that Brits view the NHS as a national resource to be used for the greatest good of all.



A relative's aunt who had been a nurse in the NHS was diagnosed with
breast cancer when she was 70 something, past the age when the NHS
would treat it. She was OK with it; she said she'd had her time, and she
supported the decision to give her only palliative care and instead
devote the resources to, e.g., vaccinating kids.



So the perspective there is totally different from here.



Dutiful little drones they seem to have become.

Churchill weeps in his grave.

Posted by: LGoPs at July 24, 2017 12:50 PM (FJr2+)

129 Bet they are pestering the parents for organ donation....

Posted by: Don Q. at July 24, 2017 12:50 PM (NgKpN)

130 An analogy I've used with people is housing. If the government had to buy everyone a dwelling...how would that work out? How high would your taxes go? Would the people in the big houses in the nice neighbors be you...or the people connected to the politicians and the famous?
Posted by: 18-1 at July 24, 2017 12:43 PM (eSx+E)



Who got a Zil in the USSR?

Posted by: Deplorable Jay Guevara at July 24, 2017 12:50 PM (SRKgf)

131 So the perspective there is totally different from here."

Indeed.

I draw the line at calling Brits "citizens".

They are subjects to the crown. Never forget that.

Posted by: Anon a mouse... at July 24, 2017 12:50 PM (MINbv)

132 It's not that. It's that Brits view the NHS as a national resource to be used for the greatest good of all.

Oh ... well then it's a damn good thing that there aren't certain governmental entities that are considered beyond reproach by all Right Thinking Republicans here at home.

Whew ... I sure feel better now.

Posted by: ScoggDog at July 24, 2017 12:50 PM (Niu5G)

133 And the Holy Koran says: "The weak little infidel will hide behind the rock and tree, and the rock and tree will say: oh servant of Allah, oh British National Health Service, there is a weak little baby behind me, come and kill him!"

Posted by: London Mayor Mohamed Mohamed Ahmed Mohamed at July 24, 2017 12:50 PM (j+dfT)

134 I'm a doctor

Dammit, so am I, Jim!

Posted by: Bones at July 24, 2017 12:51 PM (vtcmf)

135 People are such idiots. They want guarantees, which is understandable. Who doesn't? But then they think that government is the perfect vehicle to deliver on those guarantees, despite living through Stalin, Mao, Castro, etc.

What I' curious about, how was this clause snuck in, in the first place? The clause that says, "we have not only the right to *deny* you healthcare if we think you're a lost cause. We have the right to FORCE YOU OR YOUR FAMILY to die by saying you can't go outside us to get treatment".

Where/when is this clause? Is it an obtuse reading of a law, like the way the commerce clause in the Constitution is abused?

Posted by: Steve and Cold Bear at July 24, 2017 12:51 PM (xAvrH)

136 An analogy I've used with people is housing. If the government had to buy everyone a dwelling...how would that work out?




Cabrini Green.

Mic drop.

Posted by: rickb223 at July 24, 2017 12:51 PM (Bd48Y)

137 I'm not defending the NHS management of the
situation which was infuriating, but this kid was never going to survive
no matter what was done. If the parents wanted to pay for futile care
they should have been allowed to do so, but I can't see using this as a
weapon against socialized medicine. If I owned an insurance company I
wouldn't want to cover it either. And as a moral issue, there is an
argument that prolonging his life was inhumane.

Posted by: Scalpe at July 24, 2017 12:49 PM (Atrbe)

I think the anger is more that the parents were not even ALLOWED to take their child wherever they wanted to for treatment.

And, even if the child had no hope, there's something to be said for allowing treatment as a form of study for future cases.

Posted by: Tami, Public Ineffectual at July 24, 2017 12:52 PM (Enq6K)

138 It frightens me the way that Health Service (as a whole) has turned into a cult centered around handing down Death Sentences to people.

Posted by: Hikaru at July 24, 2017 12:52 PM (CMbMd)

139 >>If the parents wanted to pay for futile care they should have been
allowed to do so, but I can't see using this as a weapon against
socialized medicine. I


It was socialized medicine that essentially told the parent that they could not get health care outside of the system, that *they* decided when/how Charlie passed. We have every reason to use this a weapon against them - it was disgusting.

Posted by: Lizzy at July 24, 2017 12:52 PM (NOIQH)

140 That poor little boy. #JeSuisCharlie is almost trite, but if you are a subject of the UK, it fits. Have some faith, though: the FT and Daily Mail will close comments on any story promoting badthink: I have no doubt they will delete particular comments as well.

Four big things I took away from threads today: Alex's adventures in child support land, a pensioner violently foiling a robbery while baristas look on, the death sentence passed on Charlie Gard, and the notion of white "deadbeats" being America's Most Wanted.

Jesus. No wonder Vox Day is so smug lately.

Posted by: trev006 at July 24, 2017 12:52 PM (lUz1b)

141 We have socialized "health care" here.

It's called the VA. Ask veterans how awesome it is.

Posted by: Jane D'oh at July 24, 2017 12:53 PM (PY9jH)

142 >>>So the perspective there is totally different from here

I think that's more similar to the perspective of doctors facing similar diseases.

Posted by: Banana Splits Guy at July 24, 2017 12:53 PM (UCap9)

143 Socialism makes for bad citizens. - Margaret Thatcher

Posted by: josephistan at July 24, 2017 12:53 PM (7HtZB)

144 You have a million dollars. They killed your kid, just because. What can you do with a million dollars to bring closure?

Just think about that. You'll hit on something, man.

Posted by: Headless Body of Agnew at July 24, 2017 12:53 PM (e1mEI)

145 I watched a British show called MI5 this weekend. Now you would think they would deal with terrorists, right? No, the terrorist was an American pro-life advocate that was killing UK doctors.

Posted by: notsothoreau at July 24, 2017 12:53 PM (JKNZq)

146 The Britt have been socialized so long they can't imagine that medicine could be better if it wasn't nationalized.

Posted by: 2009Refugee at July 24, 2017 12:53 PM (JtFiY)

147 This is what "bending the cost curve" looks like....

...even when it's not costing the NHS a penny.

Baby must die. Period. Full stop.

And they will use the bureaucracy to enforce their decision, becuz-

Baby must die. Period. Full stop.

Even when it's not costing the NHS a penny.



And those Republican a-holes can't find it within themselves to repeal Obamacare and prevent the same sorts of things from happening here.

Cuz you, your children, your parents, your grandparents, your grandchildren-

are worth nothing in their eyes....compared to money from cronies.

Posted by: naturalfake at July 24, 2017 12:54 PM (NyJwR)

148 138 It frightens me the way that Health Service (as a whole) has turned into a cult centered around handing down Death Sentences to people.
Posted by: Hikaru at July 24, 2017 12:52 PM (CMbMd)

What frightens me more, is that the Courts had to be involved in this...

Posted by: Don Q. at July 24, 2017 12:54 PM (NgKpN)

149 Really, I don't see any way we don't eventually get single payer.



Once ObamaCare gave a much bigger swath of people the free shit,
that was it. No politician will ever have the balls to cut them off and
the rest of us will forever pay out the nose.

Posted by: publix at July 24, 2017 12:48 PM (LHzKO)


The only time to stop this would have been when the Republicans were first given the House by the American people using the power of the purse to stop it before it took root. And the Republicans failed for which they should live in eternal infamy.
You think the Democrats would have failed given a similar situation? They've fucking de-funded combat operations in the middle of a fucking war....so I guess the answer is a resounding No. They would have driven on regardless of the consequences.
Which is why they win and we lose.

Posted by: LGoPs at July 24, 2017 12:54 PM (FJr2+)

150 Dutiful little drones they seem to have become.

Churchill weeps in his grave.
Posted by: LGoPs at July 24, 2017 12:50 PM (FJr2+)



I think that that perspective long predates Churchill. Brits typically consider pies as fixed in size, so what one person gets is at the expense of another person. For this reason, they tend to take a dim view of self-made men;* they consider them piggies who've taken more than their share, necessarily depriving someone else in the process.

Paradoxically, they have no problem with inherited wealth. It's not the person's fault he was born wealthy.

*I suspect that this is a reason people such as Richard Branson are conspicuously lefty - to deflect such criticism. (He may be actually be lefty in his heart, but this would be a reason to be out and proud about it.)

Posted by: Deplorable Jay Guevara at July 24, 2017 12:54 PM (SRKgf)

151 there's something to be said for allowing treatment as a form of study for future cases."

That's the angle taken by the physicians and organizations here in the States. It's such a rare condition with such devastating results that any opportunity to test procedures and materials should be taken.

But Charlie is a subject, not a citizen.

Posted by: Anon a mouse... at July 24, 2017 12:54 PM (MINbv)

152 145 I watched a British show called MI5 this weekend. Now you would think they would deal with terrorists, right? No, the terrorist was an American pro-life advocate that was killing UK doctors.
Posted by: notsothoreau at July 24, 2017 12:53 PM (JKNZq)

Of course. Everything the BBC touches is shit.

Posted by: josephistan at July 24, 2017 12:54 PM (7HtZB)

153 And the Holy Koran says: "The weak little infidel will hide behind the rock and tree, and the rock and tree will say: oh servant of Allah, oh British National Health Service, there is a weak little baby behind me, come and kill him!"

Posted by: London Mayor Mohamed



Ain't kidding that this thread is ban bait.

Posted by: rickb223 at July 24, 2017 12:54 PM (Bd48Y)

154
If I owned an insurance company I wouldn't want to cover it either. And as a moral issue, there is an argument that prolonging his life was inhumane.
Posted by: Scalpe at July 24, 2017 12:49 PM (Atrbe)


Insurance companies might not want to pay for his treatment but they do not have the power to stop the the parents from paying for it like the state does

Posted by: Deplorable Male Logic at July 24, 2017 12:54 PM (lKyWE)

155 93 I've had enough of this thread.

If there is a hell, may Ormond Hospital burn.

Posted by: Mary Poppins' Practically Perfect Piercing at July 24, 2017 12:41 PM (X6fMO)

There is a Hell. It's cold, dark, and windy. They show you Paradise in its full beauty, in the warmth of His light for a fleeting moment before you're thrown into that all-consuming void, and, seared in your memory, its absence is a torment beyond that howling, freezing wind that goes on forever.

Hell is the absence of God. They have turned their back on Him, and He will turn his back on them in the final judgment.

Posted by: Cato the Rebel Without a Party at July 24, 2017 12:55 PM (X52ZZ)

156 15 For me, nothing has been so infuriating in all this as reading feedback from the British public...

... Damn them all.
Posted by: T at July 24, 2017 12:30 PM (Vgw1E)

You beat me to the punch, T. I was completely floored when I 'd read the Brits' reactions. They are not the same culture which carried out the Dunkirk Evacuation.

It's another nail in the coffin of Western Civilization.

Posted by: RondinellaMamma at July 24, 2017 12:55 PM (oQQwD)

157 Okay, have the Demoncrats brought up sensible chainsaw legislation yet after one was just used to injure four people in Switzerland?

Posted by: Anna Puma (HQCaR) at July 24, 2017 12:55 PM (PMDjU)

158 I don't understand why the National Health Service wouldn't let Charlie Gard's parents fly to Cuba for cutting-edge health care.


Posted by: Bernie Sanders at July 24, 2017 12:56 PM (j+dfT)

159 Paradoxically, they have no problem with inherited wealth. It's not the person's fault he was born wealthy



IOW, "KNOW YOUR STATION, SERF!"

Posted by: rickb223 at July 24, 2017 12:56 PM (Bd48Y)

160 141 We have socialized "health care" here.

It's called the VA. Ask veterans how awesome it is.
Posted by: Jane D'oh at July 24, 2017 12:53 PM (PY9jH)



Yep. I've said to liberals, "You think the government will take care of you? Visit an Indian reservation."

Posted by: Deplorable Jay Guevara at July 24, 2017 12:56 PM (SRKgf)

161 The parents weren't even allowed to take Charlie HOME.

Posted by: squeakywheel at July 24, 2017 12:56 PM (bPIyb)

162 >> Everything the BBC touches is shit.


I don't know...lotta great 'BBC Sessions' discs out there.

Posted by: TRAFFIC at July 24, 2017 12:56 PM (qQq11)

163 I spent a lovely day on an uninhabited island with my husband and friends on Saturday. Felt totally at peace for those few hours.

I think I'll take a break and go run my errands.

Posted by: Jane D'oh at July 24, 2017 12:56 PM (PY9jH)

164 I watched a British show called MI5 this weekend. Now you would think they would deal with terrorists, right? No, the terrorist was an American pro-life advocate that was killing UK doctors.

Posted by: notsothoreau at July 24, 2017 12:53 PM (JKNZq)



Law and Odor: Was he white and Christian? Or is that a given?

Posted by: TheQuietMan at July 24, 2017 12:57 PM (493sH)

165 Parts is parts.

Posted by: jwpaine at July 24, 2017 12:57 PM (PLsKH)

166 You beat me to the punch, T. I was completely floored when I 'd read the Brits' reactions. They are not the same culture which carried out the Dunkirk Evacuation.



That's one reason why they are on their own with the muzzie problem.

Posted by: rickb223 at July 24, 2017 12:57 PM (Bd48Y)

167 And the rough beast slouches ever closer to Bethlehem
to be born.

Posted by: Reis Gorthanes at July 24, 2017 12:58 PM (BiADi)

168 Usually, the comments section at sites like Daily Mail is fairly right-leaning, but even there, when it came to poor Charlie, the parents were being absolutely excoriated for fighting the hospital, which apparently, in the eyes of their fellow Brits, is run by the most intelligent, compassionate people on Earth.


It's not that. It's that Brits view the NHS as a national resource to be used for the greatest good of all.

A relative's aunt who had been a nurse in the NHS was diagnosed with breast cancer when she was 70 something, past the age when the NHS would treat it. She was OK with it; she said she'd had her time, and she supported the decision to give her only palliative care and instead devote the resources to, e.g., vaccinating kids.

So the perspective there is totally different from here.

The Brits just...take it. They let themselves get shit on over and over, so long as it's their own government doing it. It's a flaw in their character, putting up with stuff instead of fixing it.

Posted by: Mark Andrew Edwards at July 24, 2017 12:58 PM (3OIiX)

169 Those crowd sourcing funds look taxable.

Posted by: Theresa May at July 24, 2017 12:58 PM (mcI77)

170 If the parents wanted to pay for futile care they should have been allowed to do so, but I can't see using this as a weapon against socialized medicine. If I owned an insurance company I wouldn't want to cover it either. And as a moral issue, there is an argument that prolonging his life was inhumane.

============
1. Parental/patient autonomy. Its gone when the government sits as the payor and decider of your care. Their decision is final, your decision as doctor or patient doesn't matter. And you CAN NOT sue. You'll get nothing and like it. Even if you can pay for it yourself, you. will. get. nothing.
2. You can sue your insurer. They do not like to be sued and will often compromise. Which is better than nothing. If you can pay out of pocket you can do what you like.

Posted by: simplemind at July 24, 2017 12:58 PM (hxSO0)

171
A nation where Kermit Gosnell is Dr. Kildare.

Posted by: J.J. Sefton at July 24, 2017 12:58 PM (mbhDw)

172 Stiff upper lip. Lie back and think of England.

That's the British Way.

Posted by: The Divine Right of Kings at July 24, 2017 12:58 PM (9hleX)

173 If I owned an insurance company I wouldn't want to cover it either. And as a moral issue, there is an argument that prolonging his life was inhumane.
Posted by: Scalpe at July 24, 2017 12:49 PM (Atrbe)

Scalpe, the question isn't whether an insurance company or a taxpayer funded govt. source should pay for his treatment. The question is whether a government panel of bureaucrats have the right to tell the parents they cannot spend their own money to seek treatment for their child, no matter how futile.

A Govt. bureaucrat , aided by black robed wigged court jesters, who don't know the child, or any patient for that matter, can order that life saving equipment be removed regardless of whose paying for it.

They are determining the treatment and life or death of a child, not the parents. Or in the next case, not a daughter, or son, or spouse.

And that determination was based on someone else's sense of when someone should die. Someone they don't know at all.

Posted by: Jen the original at July 24, 2017 12:59 PM (FggK5)

174
Speaking of single payer, I heard a clip of Chuck U Schumer from the weekend saying that everything is on the table regarding health care including single payer.

Posted by: TheQuietMan at July 24, 2017 12:59 PM (493sH)

175 publix: "Really, I don't see any way we don't eventually get single payer.



Once ObamaCare gave a much bigger swath of people the free shit,
that was it. No politician will ever have the balls to cut them off and
the rest of us will forever pay out the nose."

Hmmm. One hears this constantly, even around here.

Problem is, "single payer" is not supported/wanted by any segment of the electorate. Recall that the "govt. option" was too toxic even for the Dems who were arm-twisted into passing the O-care disaster. F***ing Vermont turned away from it, as CA is in the process of doing, and I think CO voted it down (by a lot?).

Other gigantic factual problem: O-care apart from Medicaid expansion is tiny, not a "much bigger swath of people", it's not free, it's crappy, and it's shrinking on its own. RAND estimates only about 5 million previously uninsured to be on O-care policies - and that number is shrinking. Five million, not 10 or 15 million (the latter number being a rough estimate of the number of people wiped out by the destruction of the individual market). O-care "helps" a tiny and shrinking number of people - and it's not free or even close, it's expensive and crappy.

So yeah, I don't see Medicaid being abolished. But that's not what this baseless bromide of "no entitlement can ever be ended" is about, it's about O-care, which is tiny, and disintegrating. And will completely disappear on its own absent Congressional bail-outs of the idiot insurance companies.

And none of this suggests in any way that "single payer" will somehow become mysteriously popular or feasible when even CA, CO, and VT have rejected it.

Note: none of this factual correction in any way suggests the disconnect between popular will and what is enacted by Congress, nor the spectacular fecklessness and irresponsibility of the GOP, will not deliver further, great, and avoidable damage to the country in terms of health care.


Posted by: rhomboid at July 24, 2017 12:59 PM (QDnY+)

176 The Brits just...take it. They let themselves get
shit on over and over, so long as it's their own government doing it.
It's a flaw in their character, putting up with stuff instead of fixing
it.

Posted by: Mark Andrew Edwards at July 24, 2017 12:58 PM (3OIiX)

It's in their DNA....they've been 'ruled over' for most of their history.

Posted by: Tami, Public Ineffectual at July 24, 2017 12:59 PM (Enq6K)

177 We have socialized "health care" here.

It's called the VA. Ask veterans how awesome it is.
Posted by: Jane D'oh at July 24, 2017 12:53 PM (PY9jH)


Yep. I've said to liberals, "You think the government will take care of you? Visit an Indian reservation."
Posted by: Deplorable Jay Guevara



Tell them, "Watch the movie.Guaranteed YOU won't be living in District 1."

Posted by: rickb223 at July 24, 2017 12:59 PM (Bd48Y)

178 You beat me to the punch, T. I was completely floored when I 'd read the Brits' reactions. They are not the same culture which carried out the Dunkirk Evacuation.

Posted by: RondinellaMamma at July 24, 2017 12:55 PM (oQQwD)


Yeah, they are, actually. It's just a different culture than ours.

Bear in mind that the NHS was founded in 1946, by Clement Atlee, right after the Brits voted out Churchill in 1945.

Posted by: Deplorable Jay Guevara at July 24, 2017 12:59 PM (SRKgf)

179 Bear in mind that the NHS was founded in 1946, by Clement Atlee, right after the Brits voted out Churchill in 1945.
Posted by: Deplorable Jay Guevara

The start of the "Free Shit Brigade"

Posted by: Rick in SK at July 24, 2017 01:00 PM (FZYNt)

180 It's a flaw in their character, putting up with stuff instead of fixing
it.

Posted by: Mark Andrew Edwards at July 24, 2017 12:58 PM (3OIiX)


So it's like their teeth

Posted by: TheQuietMan at July 24, 2017 01:00 PM (493sH)

181 I 24 so the UK citizens thinks the Stae have total authority over their Own life?

That's because they are still, in their hearts, subjects, not citizens, serfs, not free men. Example offered in proof: they are essentially disarmed.

Posted by: Fox2! at July 24, 2017 01:01 PM (4/pmb)

182 I can't imagine the pain the parents are going through.

Sigh.

So many people- especially female, new age liberals-- believe that they are in contact with their "angels." Yet they completely categorically reject the posibility of "demons" and/ or Satan. And God for that matter.

Evil is so easy to see.

A government denying treatment to a sick child is a prime example.

May the people in the NHS that have decided that Charlie Gard-- and all the others they have subjected to their whims, like those on the Liverpool Care Pathway-- all rot in hell.

Posted by: shibumi at July 24, 2017 01:01 PM (aT+Bx)

183 If the parents wanted to pay for futile care they should have been allowed to do so, but I can't see using this as a weapon against socialized medicine. If I owned an insurance company I wouldn't want to cover it either. And as a moral issue, there is an argument that prolonging his life was inhumane.
Posted by: Scalpe at July 24, 2017 12:49 PM (Atrbe)



The parents raised nearly $2 million in cash money to pay for the treatment.

This is absolutely the best possible weapon against socialized medicine because your argument re: payment was removed from the equation.


What this is about truly is your last sentence and who gets to decide that. Because, as I just noted, the payment argument does not exist. The State determined prolonging life was inhumane. The parents did not agree. Who gets to make that decision?

That is not rhetorical. I am asking you, directly, who gets to make that decision. Does the State, or some panel of experts, or the family get to make that decision?

Posted by: alexthechick - where's my flag at July 24, 2017 01:01 PM (mf5HN)

184 Bear in mind that the NHS was founded in 1946, by Clement Atlee, right after the Brits voted out Churchill in 1945.
Posted by: Deplorable Jay Guevara

Atlee did what Hitler couldn't, defeat the British

Posted by: Rick in SK at July 24, 2017 01:01 PM (FZYNt)

185 The Brits just...take it. They let themselves get
shit on over and over, so long as it's their own government doing it. It's a flaw in their character, putting up with stuff instead of fixing it.

Posted by: Mark Andrew Edwards at July 24, 2017 12:58 PM (3OIiX)


Putting up with stuff rather than fixing it is one of the marked differences between there and here. The expression is "muddling through," and they do it all the time. Don't "muddle through;" FIX THE GODDAMNED THING!

Posted by: Deplorable Jay Guevara at July 24, 2017 01:01 PM (SRKgf)

186 I'm not defending the NHS management of the
situation which was infuriating, but this kid was never going to survive
no matter what was done. If the parents wanted to pay for futile care
they should have been allowed to do so, but I can't see using this as a
weapon against socialized medicine. If I owned an insurance company I
wouldn't want to cover it either. And as a moral issue, there is an
argument that prolonging his life was inhumane.

Posted by: Scalpe

You contradicted yourself.

Socialized medicine seized control of this family, and their movements.

It prevented them from seeking carre at no cost to it.

It, in its grandness, "allowed the family to spend time with their son".

Socialized medicine here is a fucking monster with no regard for human rights and the sense of self.

Posted by: Blue Hen at July 24, 2017 01:01 PM (326rv)

187 The Brits just...take it. They let themselves get
shit on over and over, so long as it's their own government doing it.
It's a flaw in their character, putting up with stuff instead of fixing
it.

Posted by: Mark Andrew Edwards at July 24, 2017 12:58 PM (3OIiX)

It's in their DNA....they've been 'ruled over' for most of their history.
Posted by: Tami, Public Ineffectual at July 24, 2017 12:59 PM (Enq6K)

You're not wrong. I think being voluntary subjects of a Monarchy messes with their mind. They had a chance under Cromwell to go a different way but they wanted their 'wubbie' back. So the Restoration happened.

But the lower class Brits used to have a way of scoffing at 'their betters' with meddlers and social workers. Not full on 'Irish Democracy' but a certain clear eyed desire not to be interfered with. That's been dead and gone since the end of WW2.

Posted by: Mark Andrew Edwards at July 24, 2017 01:02 PM (3OIiX)

188 126 I'm a doctor who hates the idea of socialized medicine more than you. BUT. Whether socialized or private insured, if you aren't willing to deny experimental treatment to those with an incurable genetic disease that is incompatible with life, then where would you draw the line? I'm not defending the NHS management of the situation which was infuriating, but this kid was never going to survive no matter what was done. If the parents wanted to pay for futile care they should have been allowed to do so, but I can't see using this as a weapon against socialized medicine. If I owned an insurance company I wouldn't want to cover it either. And as a moral issue, there is an argument that prolonging his life was inhumane.

Posted by: Scalpe at July 24, 2017 12:49 PM (Atrbe)


All true, but the issue is that they weren't allowed to, and it is wrapped up in the socialized medicine system, and that the determination for prolonging his life or not is the parents' and not the State's.

Posted by: Jeff Weimer at July 24, 2017 01:03 PM (fuyzl)

189 Attlee did what Hitler couldn't, defeat the British
Posted by: Rick in SK at July 24, 2017 01:01 PM (FZYNt)


Attlee also began building the tower blocks (their projects), such as the one that burned down recently, and others which have been dynamited.

Posted by: Deplorable Jay Guevara at July 24, 2017 01:03 PM (SRKgf)

190 174 Speaking of single payer, I heard a clip of Chuck U Schumer from the weekend saying that everything is on the table regarding health care including single payer.
Posted by: TheQuietMan
__________

Yeah, that reminds me of the GOP House and Senate leadership back when they were in the minority and saying that everything was on the table regarding health insurance, including repealing Obamacare and trying free enterprise.

Posted by: Furious George at July 24, 2017 01:03 PM (j+dfT)

191 Bear in mind that the NHS was founded in 1946, by Clement Atlee, right after the Brits voted out Churchill in 1945.

Posted by: Deplorable Jay Guevara at July 24, 2017 12:59 PM (SRKgf)

Our culture split from theirs at the apex of their civilization. We took different paths from there.

They are what we might become, if we finish turning away from the plain, mundane, but wholly workable thing we call common sense, and ignore it for the false lights of Progressive ruin.

Posted by: Cato the Rebel Without a Party at July 24, 2017 01:03 PM (X52ZZ)

192 Rush shitting all over the GOP now. Good.

Posted by: Under Fire at July 24, 2017 01:04 PM (mcI77)

193 Posted by: shibumi at July 24, 2017 01:01 PM (aT+Bx)

How does evil win? By convincing people that it is good, and that there is no evil.

Posted by: Cato the Rebel Without a Party at July 24, 2017 01:04 PM (X52ZZ)

194 It's a flaw in their character, putting up with stuff instead of fixing
it.

Posted by: Mark Andrew Edwards at July 24, 2017 12:58 PM (3OIiX)


So it's like their teeth
Posted by: TheQuietMan at July 24, 2017 01:00 PM (493sH)

LOL

Damn...nice one.

Posted by: Mark Andrew Edwards at July 24, 2017 01:04 PM (3OIiX)

195 Last summer, for five and a half days I was the guest of the Italian people in a tiny village hospital.

My room had:

* No phone, which would've been OK, but, due to the mountains, I had no bars on my cell phone.
* No TV, which was OK
* No air conditioning
* No screens on the windows--bees, wasps, etc flew in and out all day
* No hospital gowns (The first night I had vomited all over myself from the positional vertigo and they had nothing to give me to change into....). After the tour operator brought me my luggage, I was literally washing out one of the two nightgowns I brought and hanging it out the window to dry each day), I called it Little House At The Foot of the Alps.
* No washcloths or towels or soap (they would give me starched ironed sheets to use to dry myself)
* No eating utensils with the food unless I begged the woman and then I got a spoon.
* No identification of any sort on me or my bed, so I was always hoping they were giving me the correct medicine, etc, which since I have 19 drug allergies is always a concern.

When my family, the US Embassy, or the travel insurance folks would call about me, the switchboard ALWAYS hung up on them. On the fourth day there, I woke up and had bars on my phone, so I called my family to find out that that my niece and her husband were flying to Italy to get me.

Socialized medicine sucks.

Posted by: Sherry McEvil, Stiletto Corsettes, who is a cranky GF hag, thank you very much. at July 24, 2017 01:04 PM (kXoT0)

196 How would healthcare work out if everyone was fully covered up to age 50. And then after that you were on your own to pay for your own healthcare.

Isn't it that treating all those chronic old age diseases that makes it so terribly expensive?


Posted by: Buzzsaw90 at July 24, 2017 01:04 PM (oGRue)

197 the excellence of bureaucracy: red tape and delay. add a dash of government workers that are doing their job for themselves and not to help others.

Posted by: arbitrary turn back at July 24, 2017 01:05 PM (8RQER)

198 Ain't kidding that this thread is ban bait.
Posted by: rickb223


Yes. Those responsible are subhuman. In Out Of The Silent Planet, Oyarsa said of Devine, "the human in him is already dead. If he were mine, I would unmake him".

Posted by: Steve and Cold Bear at July 24, 2017 01:05 PM (xAvrH)

199 Too sad for words.

Posted by: nraendowment at July 24, 2017 01:05 PM (MnDAb)

200 Anna, saw that about the chainsaw attack in Switzerland.

Of course most informed people know that deaths from rifles in the US are exceeded by deaths from blunt instruments (hammers, wrenches, baseball bats).

Yet huge parts of the unconstitutional firearm legislation burdening much of the country deals with Common Sense Rifle Control.


Posted by: rhomboid at July 24, 2017 01:06 PM (QDnY+)

201 Socialized medicine here is a fucking monster with no regard for human rights and the sense of self.
==============
Imagine a booted foot stamping on a human face, forever.

*When the government runs your health care.*

Posted by: simplemind at July 24, 2017 01:06 PM (vfRHw)

202 Afterthought.

In an object lesson in economics and politics, Britain used its Marshall Plan aid to form the NHS and build the tower blocks, i.e., spent the money on consumption.

Germany, which we'd pounded to shit and gone, used its money on rebuilding infrastructure, i.e., invested the money in future productivity. (I think Germany was still under Allied control then, but the point remains.)

It's almost as if socialist policies are a recipe for problems.

Posted by: Deplorable Jay Guevara at July 24, 2017 01:06 PM (SRKgf)

203 NHS was founded in 1946,"

48. The act was passed in 46. The reality is that Britain had gone far leftist during the war - the infamous "report" of 42 (IIRC) was the final straw.

Many looked at 1984 and said "that ain't so bad"...

Posted by: Anon a mouse... at July 24, 2017 01:06 PM (MINbv)

204 So it's like their teeth

Posted by: TheQuietMan at July 24, 2017 01:00 PM (493sH)



British Healthcare is the best in the world!!!!


Geronimo-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o....

Posted by: Decayed Molar Falling Out of British Guy's Mouth Do to Rampant untreated Gum Disease at July 24, 2017 01:06 PM (NyJwR)

205 When my family, the US Embassy, or the travel insurance folks would call about me, the switchboard ALWAYS
hung up on them. On the fourth day there, I woke up and had bars on my
phone, so I called my family to find out that that my niece and her
husband were flying to Italy to get me.



Socialized medicine sucks.





Posted by: Sherry McEvil, Stiletto Corsettes, who is a cranky GF hag, thank you very much. at July 24, 2017 01:04 PM (kXoT0)

Holy crap Sherry! What a nighmare!
The only thing they didn't do was accuse you of murdering your roommate.

Posted by: Tami, Public Ineffectual at July 24, 2017 01:06 PM (Enq6K)

206 194 It's a flaw in their character, putting up with stuff instead of fixing
it.

Posted by: Mark Andrew Edwards at July 24, 2017 12:58 PM (3OIiX)


So it's like their teeth
Posted by: TheQuietMan at July 24, 2017 01:00 PM (493sH)

---

soon Charlie will not just have a stiff upper lip

Posted by: NHS at July 24, 2017 01:07 PM (oGRue)

207 How would healthcare work out if everyone was fully covered up to age 50. And then after that you were on your own to pay for your own healthcare.

Isn't it that treating all those chronic old age diseases that makes it so terribly expensive?




I would think it's those that don't pay a dime, regardless of age, that makes it so terribly expensive.

Posted by: rickb223 at July 24, 2017 01:07 PM (Bd48Y)

208 Socialized medicine here is a fucking monster with no regard for human rights and the sense of self.
Posted by: Blue Hen at July 24, 2017 01:01 PM (326rv)

This is what people do not understand....

We in the US are blessed with the acknowledgment of our Human Rights, in our founding documents.

The rest of the world? does not... they have documents GIVING rights to their 'citizens'...

but anything given, can be taken away...

That fundamental difference in philosophy is sadly changing here in the US... but it is the major difference between us and other governments for the past 225 years.

We should never have tried to impose Democracy on other countries... we should have conditioned our support upon their actually embracing a US style view on Rights.

Posted by: Don Q. at July 24, 2017 01:08 PM (NgKpN)

209 Imagine a booted foot stamping on a human face, forever.

*When the government runs your health care.*
Posted by: simplemind at July 24, 2017 01:06 PM (vfRHw)

---

with a $25 copay

Posted by: NHS at July 24, 2017 01:08 PM (oGRue)

210 Coming soon to America unless your a sitting US Senator or a Millionaire. Sigh

Posted by: Nevergiveup at July 24, 2017 01:09 PM (5y11N)

211 How does evil win? By convincing people that it is good, and that there is no evil.

Posted by: Cato the Rebel Without a Party at July 24, 2017 01:04 PM (X52ZZ)

The Devil's greatest trick was to convince the world he didn't exist.

Posted by: The Mouse that Roared at July 24, 2017 01:09 PM (DxWUs)

212 The British government decreed that Charlie Gard must be denied life-saving treatment, for the common good, and I said nothing because I was not Charlie's parent.

Just the latest reason why England is no longer referred to as Great Britain.

Posted by: Stu Podaso at July 24, 2017 01:10 PM (mpQxZ)

213 How does evil win? By convincing people that it is good, and that there is no evil.
Posted by: Cato the Rebel Without a Party at July 24, 2017 01:04 PM
---

What is the saying?

"Satan's greatest achievement is that he convinced people he does not exist."

/he's also convinced quite a few that God doesn't exist, so he's doing quite well I think.

Posted by: shibumi at July 24, 2017 01:10 PM (aT+Bx)

214 *wanders off*

This thread is like fighting a land war in Asia.

Posted by: Anna Puma (HQCaR) at July 24, 2017 01:10 PM (PMDjU)

215 Does the State, or some panel of experts, or the family get to make that decision?"

The crown (and note the lower case. I do not give it respect)

Posted by: Anon a mouse... at July 24, 2017 01:10 PM (MINbv)

216 Just the latest reason why England is no longer referred to as Great Britain.




The sun HAS set on the brit empire.

Posted by: rickb223 at July 24, 2017 01:10 PM (Bd48Y)

217 Ingsoc. Gettin' rid of those little clumps of cells. So everyone else's chocolate rations are increased.

Posted by: Francis 7 at July 24, 2017 01:10 PM (LpRIq)

218
People here love their Medicaid every bit as much as the Brits love their NHS.

Posted by: Deplorable Male Logic at July 24, 2017 01:11 PM (lKyWE)

219 >>Socialized medicine sucks.





Posted by: Sherry McEvil, Stiletto Corsettes


Wow.

Good thing that some doctor didn't decide on you and your family's behalf that you shouldn't live, eh? Sounds like no one could have stopped them.

Posted by: Lizzy at July 24, 2017 01:12 PM (NOIQH)

220 217 Ingsoc. Gettin' rid of those little clumps of cells. So everyone else's the Inner Party's chocolate rations are increased.
Posted by: Francis 7 at July 24, 2017 01:10 PM (LpRIq)

FTFY

Posted by: Insomniac - Not Disappointed, Just Angry at July 24, 2017 01:12 PM (0mRoj)

221 And as a moral issue, there is an
argument that prolonging his life was inhumane.

Posted by: Scalpe


There's also a moral issue that the knowledge learned from applying new technologies and treatments to a case like this could well have advanced medical science immeasurably, a choice his parents attempted to make (and one which was supported by thousands of purely voluntary contributors), BUT, thanks to the wisdom and power of the State assisted suicide plan, we'll never know if that would have happened!

Posted by: Hrothgar at July 24, 2017 01:12 PM (gwPgz)

222 I waiting for the Gorilla-splaining on this.

Posted by: Roland THTG at July 24, 2017 01:12 PM (baYK5)

223 195 Last summer, for five and a half days I was the guest of the Italian people in a tiny village hospital.

My room had:

* No phone, which would've been OK, but, due to the mountains, I had no bars on my cell phone.
* No TV, which was OK
* No air conditioning
* No screens on the windows--bees, wasps, etc flew in and out all day
* No hospital gowns (The first night I had vomited all over myself from the positional vertigo and they had nothing to give me to change into....). After the tour operator brought me my luggage, I was literally washing out one of the two nightgowns I brought and hanging it out the window to dry each day), I called it Little House At The Foot of the Alps.
* No washcloths or towels or soap (they would give me starched ironed sheets to use to dry myself)
* No eating utensils with the food unless I begged the woman and then I got a spoon.
* No identification of any sort on me or my bed, so I was always hoping they were giving me the correct medicine, etc, which since I have 19 drug allergies is always a concern.

When my family, the US Embassy, or the travel insurance folks would call about me, the switchboard ALWAYS hung up on them. On the fourth day there, I woke up and had bars on my phone, so I called my family to find out that that my niece and her husband were flying to Italy to get me.

Socialized medicine sucks.

Posted by: Sherry McEvil, Stiletto Corsettes, who is a cranky GF hag, thank you very much. at July 24, 2017 01:04 PM (kXoT0)

Yeah, but it's free.

/sarc

Posted by: josephistan at July 24, 2017 01:13 PM (7HtZB)

224 These are the same people who believe that citizens dying in terrorist attacks are simple "taking one for the cause".

Liberalism is a death cult that fully functions in anarchy. It does not believe in rights, above all else it believes in strict adherence its own detestable tenets.

Posted by: Marcus T at July 24, 2017 01:14 PM (zJ3L1)

225 Holy crap Sherry! What a nighmare!
The only thing they didn't do was accuse you of murdering your roommate.
Posted by: Tami, Public Ineffectual at July 24, 2017 01:06 PM (Enq6K)

My roommate was fine. She was an old lady with a tracheostomy in place and no larynx, so she never said a word. She was completely incontinent, but, I will say this, they kept her immaculately clean with her family bringing in fresh gowns everyday. It was her friends that were the problem--it was in the high 80s and the ceiling fan needed to be on HIGH and the windows open. The lady would sleep like a baby when it was like that. But, then, her friends would come in and turn off the fan and close the windows and mime to me that the lady was cold.

The best part was I got an admirer...one of the old men took a fancy to me and he would come and stand in the door way and wave at me and try to talk to me. So I spent a lot of time staring out the window with my back turned to the door.

I will say this, my little Amazon Kindle never lost bars and I would finish one book and download another one.

Posted by: Sherry McEvil, Stiletto Corsettes, who is a cranky GF hag, thank you very much. at July 24, 2017 01:14 PM (kXoT0)

226 203 NHS was founded in 1946,"

48. The act was passed in 46. The reality is that Britain had gone far leftist during the war - the infamous "report" of 42 (IIRC) was the final straw.

Many looked at 1984 and said "that ain't so bad"...
Posted by: Anon a mouse... at July 24, 2017 01:06 PM (MINbv)

Orwell didn't write about the future, he wrote about the present (194

Posted by: josephistan at July 24, 2017 01:14 PM (7HtZB)

227 Apologies if someone else has noted this already, but one of the excuses for denying treatment was that it might harm Charlie.

This is evil.

Posted by: Emmie at July 24, 2017 01:14 PM (ZapPq)

228 Did you see Cosmo's new Hover Round ? It has chrome wheels with spinners and a Hemi motor. I want Medicaid to pay for my new one.

Posted by: Typical Florida Blue Hair What Eats Dinner At 2pm at July 24, 2017 01:14 PM (mcI77)

229 thanks to the wisdom and power of the State assisted suicide plan, we're sure it will never lead to additional costs"

There, FIFY.

Posted by: Anon a mouse... at July 24, 2017 01:15 PM (MINbv)

230 And as a moral issue, there is an
argument that prolonging his life was inhumane.

Posted by: Scalpe

As a moral issue, there is an argument that interfering with basic human rights is inhumane.

And as a practical matter, matters of humanity coming from a bureaucracy that kills people through neglect, incompetence, and a lack of interest is laughable. They have a vested interest in saying 'no'.

Posted by: Blue Hen at July 24, 2017 01:15 PM (326rv)

231 Yeah, but it's free.

/sarc
Posted by: josephistan at July 24, 2017 01:13 PM (7HtZB)

Yep, never got a bill. I did get a bill for 83 Euros from the Paris hospital.

Posted by: Sherry McEvil, Stiletto Corsettes, who is a cranky GF hag, thank you very much. at July 24, 2017 01:15 PM (kXoT0)

232 The brutality of socialized medicine is always on display. Front and center.

Having said that, the lie that is European single-payer health care has to be exposed.

In fact, the Europe has no single payer system on par with what the Democrats are trying to push on us.

There are 321 million Americans. Democrats want single payer for 321 million people (or more, when you consider illegal immigrants.)

There is no single payer system in Europe for 321 million people.

There are single payer systems for Denmark, or Sweden, or the UK, but that is three different systems for approximately 65 million in the UK, 6 million in Denmark, and 9 million in Sweden.

These are all smaller systems that could never fit 321 million Americans into their narrow specialized national needs.

Hell, Obama tried to put the Massachusetts model into effect on a national basis and it failed miserably. Size and scale matters.

If anyone tries to tell you we need to adopt the model from a small European nation, call them out for their ignorance and point out that America doesn't aspire to be Denmark. Denmark aspire to be America.

The have a poly-singlepayer system.

Posted by: Adirondack Patriot at July 24, 2017 01:15 PM (4AVeu)

233 Putting up with stuff rather than fixing it is one of the marked differences between there and here. The expression is "muddling through," and they do it all the time. Don't "muddle through;" FIX THE GODDAMNED THING!
Posted by: Deplorable Jay Guevara at July 24, 2017 01:01 PM (SRKgf)


Insty had a link to this article illuminating this very point. It's about laundry.

http://bit.ly/2tmXhUF





Posted by: alexthechick - where's my flag at July 24, 2017 01:15 PM (mf5HN)

234 Shortest history of the USA: We are not Europe!

Posted by: Ignoramus at July 24, 2017 01:15 PM (+7/1f)

235 Once you've given a government the power over your life and death, you've given them control over your entire existence. No government should ever have that control.

Some people don't understand what they've given up for a few pieces of silver.

Posted by: Marcus T at July 24, 2017 01:16 PM (zJ3L1)

236 I will say this, my little Amazon Kindle never lost bars and I would finish one book and download another one.

Posted by: Sherry McEvil, Stiletto Corsettes, who is a cranky GF hag, thank you very much. at July 24, 2017 01:14 PM (kXoT0)


My 'murdering your roommate' comment was a reference to Amanda Knox.
I was just being a smartass. Hard to imagine, huh?

Posted by: Tami, Public Ineffectual at July 24, 2017 01:16 PM (Enq6K)

237 200 Anna, saw that about the chainsaw attack in Switzerland.

Of course most informed people know that deaths from rifles in the US are exceeded by deaths from blunt instruments (hammers, wrenches, baseball bats).

Yet huge parts of the unconstitutional firearm legislation burdening much of the country deals with Common Sense Rifle Control.


Posted by: rhomboid at July 24, 2017 01:06 PM (QDnY+)

there are 35,00 average gun related deaths in the US.... (that's all causes including suicide...).

Doctors screwing up cause at LEAST 225,00 deaths per year (and is much higher, this is what they admit)....

So you are more than 6X more likely to die from your Doctor, than a Gun...

So we have well over 300 million guns... and about 1 million Doctors in the US...

So, each Doctor is 1800 times more likely, to kill you, than an individual gun....

Posted by: Don Q. at July 24, 2017 01:16 PM (NgKpN)

238 Hey - no maths here, 'K?

Posted by: Anon a mouse... at July 24, 2017 01:17 PM (MINbv)

239 I don't remember who said it, but you can judge a society by how it treats its most vulnerable members.

The UK has failed that test resoundingly and repeatedly.

It has abandoned its children to grooming gangs, it has forbidden parents to treat their dying children, and it has abandoned the sick with its appalling medical system.

It's time to boycott their nation. Perhaps a sting in their wallets will make them feel shame over what they've become, if nothing else will.

Posted by: Cato the Rebel Without a Party at July 24, 2017 01:17 PM (X52ZZ)

240 So, each Doctor is 1800 times more likely, to kill you, than an individual gun....
=============
time for some common sense doctor control . . .

Posted by: nonsense pelosi at July 24, 2017 01:18 PM (+MjXs)

241 I'm sure nothing would have helped the baby no matter what they did, but that wasn't the government's call.

Posted by: Christopher R Taylor at July 24, 2017 01:18 PM (39g3+)

242
I hope Trump cancels his trip to Britain. Why bother? They're just going to be whiny bitches the entire time he's there.

Posted by: Slippery Slope Salesman at July 24, 2017 01:19 PM (EgwCt)

243 These parents are probably paying for the upkeep of the animal who beheaded drummer Rigby. But they are not even allowed to get treatment for their baby that would not cost the state anything.

Posted by: Steve and Cold Bear at July 24, 2017 01:19 PM (xAvrH)

244 My 'murdering your roommate' comment was a reference to Amanda Knox.
I was just being a smartass. Hard to imagine, huh?
Posted by: Tami, Public Ineffectual at July 24, 2017 01:16 PM (Enq6K)

Ah, I see. A bad roommate was the one thing I did not have.

Posted by: Sherry McEvil, Stiletto Corsettes, who is a cranky GF hag, thank you very much. at July 24, 2017 01:19 PM (kXoT0)

245 Shortest history of the USA: We are not Europe!

Posted by: Ignoramus at July 24, 2017 01:15 PM (+7/1f)


But we can fix that for you!

Posted by: The Pelosi-Shumer Coven at July 24, 2017 01:20 PM (gwPgz)

246 But they had a GREAT opening ceremony at the Olympics boasting their glorious healthcare system......

Posted by: Sponge at July 24, 2017 01:21 PM (xttKs)

247 These parents are probably paying for the upkeep of the animal who beheaded drummer Rigby. But they are not even allowed to get treatment for their baby that would not cost the state anything.
=========================
Is it just me, or does EVERYTHING seem to be upside down?

Posted by: simplemind at July 24, 2017 01:21 PM (w+QnB)

248 227 Apologies if someone else has noted this already, but one of the excuses for denying treatment was that it might harm Charlie.

This is evil.

Posted by: Emmie at July 24, 2017 01:14 PM (ZapPq)

Kafkaesque. It's inexplicable, nonsensical, and evil all at the same time. Their excuse utterly defies all reason, it is an atrocity against logic.

Posted by: Cato the Rebel Without a Party at July 24, 2017 01:21 PM (X52ZZ)

249
So..... Death Panel.

Amirite?

Posted by: fixerupper at July 24, 2017 01:21 PM (8XRCm)

250 Teh Donald going to do some health care thinggy at the WH at noon eastern.

Hopefully he'll turn up the rhetorical heat on the GOP.

Also would be nice if he hammered home the facts about O-care (which don't seem to penetrate even to many HQ commenters). It's tiny, it's terrible, it's unsustainable, and it has hurt 3-5 times as many people as it's "helped", all while doing nothing to fix the easily fixable problems that result in higher costs than necessary for America's best-on-the-planet level of health care.


Posted by: rhomboid at July 24, 2017 01:21 PM (QDnY+)

251 The Left high fives in darkness.

Posted by: ShainS at July 24, 2017 01:21 PM (tDn06)

252 There's a mix of arguments here, some of which I agree with and some not.

The outrage is that the State seized Baby Charlie and denied parental rights.

It's not that the State made an economic triage decision.

There will always be Death Panels, by economic necessity. If it's not the State, then it's the Market. If we deny this, we're all going to go broke.

Posted by: Ignoramus at July 24, 2017 01:22 PM (+7/1f)

253 How would healthcare work out if everyone was fully covered up to age 50. And then after that you were on your own to pay for your own healthcare.

Isn't it that treating all those chronic old age diseases that makes it so terribly expensive?


Posted by: Buzzsaw90 at July 24, 2017 01:04 PM (oGRue)

That is why wait times for specialists in Canada average 4 months(not my figure, it's the Canadian govt.s figure). Most older people with issues are treated here by specialists. Specialists are more expensive.

So in Canada, if you are an adult who is developing heart issues, or have cancer, by the time you get it diagnosed and treated, many problems have advanced and you are in much more serious problems.

No matter, everyone thinks it's great that if you have the sniffles, you can go to your primary care physician within a few days, simply show your Canada Health care card, and go home.

When you have a significant problem, though, you can simply die.

We have had two acquaintances die recently from cardiac issues that were known, but not treated in Canada due to it's fabulous system.
But even those individuals continued to laud how nice it was to not owe their primary doc anything for a check up to diagnose their cardiac issues.

Posted by: Jen the original at July 24, 2017 01:22 PM (FggK5)

254 You know who has two thumbs and who else doesn't believe in that die with dignity bullcrap?

Posted by: John McCain at July 24, 2017 01:22 PM (0XyIg)

255 How can you harm a person more than letting them waste away and die?

What greater harm can exist?

It doesn't add up!

People just meekly rolled over and accepted that nonsense, too? How!?

Posted by: Cato the Rebel Without a Party at July 24, 2017 01:22 PM (X52ZZ)

256 I'm sure nothing would have helped the baby no matter what they did, but that wasn't the government's call.
Posted by: Christopher R Taylor

I'm not sure.


And I doubt that ANYONE can be 'sure'. It was probably, at best, a forlorn hope.

This is very much like the court in Texas happily assessing $65,000 in child support from a poor bastard that was fingered by some woman. DNA tests have already proven that he ain't the guy, and have proven that she lied when she claimed that he "was the only only possible father".

But because some court ordained date passed, the ruling cannot be reversed. Appeal might be possible. In a sane world, the DNA test should have called a halt to it all.

Posted by: Blue Hen at July 24, 2017 01:22 PM (326rv)

257 God Bless little angel Charlie and his heartbroken parents.

We will never know if he could have survived but it is absolutely devastating that this decision was taken out of his parent's hands for their baby. To weep.

Posted by: Cheri at July 24, 2017 01:23 PM (oiNtH)

258 Also would be nice if he hammered home the facts about O-care (which don't seem to penetrate even to many HQ commenters). It's tiny, it's terrible, it's unsustainable, and it has hurt 3-5 times as many people as it's "helped", all while doing nothing to fix the easily fixable problems that result in higher costs than necessary for America's best-on-the-planet level of health care.

==========
Say, that's extremely concise, accurate and understandable, you don't work for government do you?

Posted by: simplemind at July 24, 2017 01:23 PM (MLfEV)

259 I wonder if at the next Olympics if the Brits will have dancing doctors and judges with blood on their costumes?

Posted by: Cheri at July 24, 2017 01:24 PM (oiNtH)

260 249
So..... Death Panel.

Amirite?
Posted by: fixerupper at July 24, 2017 01:21 PM (8XRCm)


I don't know what is more hideous; that they decided the kid was not worth saving or that they forbade the parents from taking the kid out of the country to try and save him.

If English "medicine" doesn't kill them, they still have Islam.

Posted by: J.J. Sefton at July 24, 2017 01:24 PM (mbhDw)

261 Apologies if someone else has noted this already, but one of the excuses for denying treatment was that it might harm Charlie.

This is evil.

Posted by: Emmie at July 24, 2017 01:14 PM (ZapPq)

We had to kill him to.......kill him.

Posted by: NHS at July 24, 2017 01:24 PM (326rv)

262 251 The Left high fives in darkness.
Posted by: ShainS at July 24, 2017 01:21 PM (tDn06)

Just like Jesus told Nicodemus in John chapter 3.

Posted by: 80's music fan at July 24, 2017 01:24 PM (ZBGyR)

263 But because some court ordained date passed, the ruling cannot be reversed. Appeal might be possible. In a sane world, the DNA test should have called a halt to it all.

Posted by: Blue Hen at July 24, 2017 01:22 PM (326rv)

Terrible law, and I'm ashamed that it exists in this otherwise great state.

He needs to repeal it to the Federal level and get it overturned. It's a clear violation of his rights to be forced to pay for someone else's child, and creates a perverse incentive to reward a liar with unearned money.

Posted by: Cato the Rebel Without a Party at July 24, 2017 01:25 PM (X52ZZ)

264 Once you've given a government the power over your life and death, you've given them control over your entire existence. No government should ever have that control.

Rights are in a hierarchy, and the primary right, the first one is life. Cede that and you have no other rights.

Posted by: Christopher R Taylor at July 24, 2017 01:25 PM (39g3+)

265 261
We had to kill him to.......kill him.
Posted by: NHS at July 24, 2017 01:24 PM (326rv)


So, about that opening show depicting the NHS at the London Olympics . . .

Posted by: J.J. Sefton at July 24, 2017 01:25 PM (mbhDw)

266 Know your rights. All three of 'em.

Posted by: Mx4 at July 24, 2017 01:26 PM (Tn2PT)

267 But because some court ordained date passed, the ruling cannot be reversed. Appeal might be possible. In a sane world, the DNA test should have called a halt to it all.

Posted by: Blue Hen at July 24, 2017 01:22 PM (326rv)

Terrible law, and I'm ashamed that it exists in this otherwise great state.

He needs to repeal it to the Federal level and get it overturned. It's a clear violation of his rights to be forced to pay for someone else's child, and creates a perverse incentive to reward a liar with unearned money.
Posted by: Cato the Rebel Without a Party

When the so-called Innocence Project howls about DNA evidence, people take heed, even if the announcements are misleading (sometimes there is none, sometimes multiple attackers)..

Notice how the Beautiful People suddenly ceasing giving any shits about DNA evidence.

Posted by: Blue Hen at July 24, 2017 01:27 PM (326rv)

268 I would think it's those that don't pay a dime, regardless of age, that makes it so terribly expensive.
Posted by: rickb223 at July 24, 2017 01:07 PM (Bd48Y)
______________

Some American couple went down to Mexico for a vacation recently, and the woman (who was pregnant) went into premature labor and gave birth there unexpectedly. The hospital refused to let them leave unless they paid their hospital bill, which was something like $37,000.

Meanwhile, U.S. taxpayers shell out billions of dollars every year for the "free" maternity care provided in U.S. hospitals (thanks to an ill-conceived federal law known as EMTALA) for the thousands of Mexican women who come here illegally every year to give birth to their "anchor babies."

But yeah, let's be "humane" like the left demands, and throw open our borders so that every poor third-worlder on the planet can waltz in here and demand their "free" first-world medical care, at our expense. Right now, we have tens of millions who do it. If we had the open borders country the left wants, we'd have hundreds of millions, if not billions, doing it.

What could possibly go wrong?

Posted by: TrivialPursuer at July 24, 2017 01:27 PM (IBcGJ)

269
It's time to boycott their nation. Perhaps a sting in their wallets will make them feel shame over what they've become, if nothing else will.
Posted by: Cato the Rebel Without a Party at July 24, 2017 01:17 PM (X52ZZ)


Private investors and pension funds in Britton own 140 billion in U.S. Treasury bonds so we would only be hurting ourselves

Posted by: Deplorable Male Logic at July 24, 2017 01:28 PM (lKyWE)

270 It's a Brave New world

Posted by: Nevergiveup at July 24, 2017 01:28 PM (5y11N)

271 So, about that opening show depicting the NHS at the London Olympics . . .

Posted by: J.J. Sefton at July 24, 2017 01:25 PM (mbhDw)

That was THE most bizarre Olympics show ever.

Posted by: Tami, Public Ineffectual at July 24, 2017 01:28 PM (Enq6K)

272 It's not that the State made an economic triage decision.


Right, anyone who handles your health insurance has to be able to say "we won't cover this" but nobody has the right or justice to say "you cannot get your child any more medical care."

Posted by: Christopher R Taylor at July 24, 2017 01:28 PM (39g3+)

273 We had to kill him to.......kill him.
Posted by: NHS at July 24, 2017 01:24 PM (326rv)


So, about that opening show depicting the NHS at the London Olympics . . .
Posted by: J.J. Sefton

The dancing bedpans were a nice touch; our idea.

Posted by: NHS at July 24, 2017 01:28 PM (326rv)

274 I'm sure nothing would have helped the baby no matter what they did, but that wasn't the government's call.

Posted by: Christopher R Taylor at July 24, 2017 01:18 PM (39g3+)


BUT, it WAS the government's call because the Brits gave up their God-given rights centuries ago and gave up their role as protector of their offspring slightly more recently.

If the parents had proposed to sacrifice Charlie to Moloch at Stonehenge during a full moon as a cure, the State might have a valid reason for denying the parents access to Charlie. Short of that, their actions are unconscionable!

Posted by: Hrothgar at July 24, 2017 01:28 PM (gwPgz)

275
So if I lack empathy and can't control my emotions, then I'm a sociopath?

Ok, I can live with that.

Posted by: Bedazzled in Candy Land at July 24, 2017 01:29 PM (m9X4Y)

276 Terrible law, and I'm ashamed that it exists in this otherwise great state.

He needs to repeal it to the Federal level and get it overturned. It's a clear violation of his rights to be forced to pay for someone else's child, and creates a perverse incentive to reward a liar with unearned money.
Posted by: Cato the Rebel Without a Party at July 24, 2017 01:25 PM (X52ZZ)


I have an ace movie review length rant about this in a prior threat.

Short version, public policy is priortizing making someone, anyone, other than the state pay for a child and if you turn out to not really be the father? Too bad, so sad.

It's vile.


Posted by: alexthechick - where's my flag at July 24, 2017 01:29 PM (mf5HN)

277 He needs to repeal it to the Federal level and get it overturned. It's a clear violation of his rights to be forced to pay for someone else's child


His rights? Ha! Ha ha ha!

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!

Oh, that's a good one!

Posted by: Insomniac - Not Disappointed, Just Angry at July 24, 2017 01:30 PM (0mRoj)

278 ...that they decided the kid was not worth saving or that they forbade the parents from taking the kid out of the country to try and save him.

____

The latter.

There are literally thousands of time every day the decision to "give up" on a patient are made. I can ..... tolerate... that decision from the government, to a degree.

But to "forbid" parents to seek alternatives. Wow.


Posted by: fixerupper at July 24, 2017 01:30 PM (8XRCm)

279 He needs to repeal it to the Federal level and get it overturned. It's a clear violation of his rights to be forced to pay for someone else's child, and creates a perverse incentive to reward a liar with unearned money.
Posted by: Cato the Rebel Without a Party at July 24, 2017 01:25 PM (X52ZZ)


No.

He lived a morally abhorent lifestyle where he slept around with other women. He had it coming to him. And besides, I smugly judge him, cozy in the belief that such a thing could never happen to me.*

* shit I learned here

Posted by: ScoggDog at July 24, 2017 01:31 PM (Niu5G)

280 Brits are subjects, not citizens. Once they were subjects of the Crown, now they are subjects of the NHS.

Posted by: votermom pimping great books! at July 24, 2017 01:31 PM (hMwEB)

281
He needs to repeal it to the Federal level and get it overturned. It's a clear violation of his rights to be forced to pay for someone else's child, and creates a perverse incentive to reward a liar with unearned money.

Posted by: Cato the Rebel Without a Party
______________________________

It's a tax..

Posted by: Justice Roberts at July 24, 2017 01:31 PM (UMWic)

282 In a side note of despair...Israel and Netanyahu getting ready to remove the Metal Detectors and fold as I predicted. Sigh.

Posted by: Nevergiveup at July 24, 2017 01:32 PM (5y11N)

283 If I were President, I would make Charlie the face of single payer, tell everyone that this is what its proponents want for America, call for the ACA to be fully repealed effective immediately, and announce an initiative turning Medicare and Medicaid into a medical voucher program.

Posted by: Brother Cavil, turkey ain't all that's stuffed at July 24, 2017 01:32 PM (P83tS)

284 There are literally thousands of time every day the decision to "give up" on a patient are made. I can ..... tolerate... that decision from the government, to a degree.

But to "forbid" parents to seek alternatives. Wow.


Posted by: fixerupper at July 24, 2017 01:30 PM (8XRCm)

There is a major difference between...

I will not...

and

You CAN not...

Posted by: Don Q. at July 24, 2017 01:33 PM (NgKpN)

285 But to "forbid" parents to seek alternatives. Wow.

============
In Canada I do believe it is against the law for a physician to treat for private pay.

You'll take a number, and stand in line with everyone else.

Posted by: simplemind at July 24, 2017 01:33 PM (vfRHw)

286 254 You know who has two thumbs and who else doesn't believe in that die with dignity bullcrap?

Posted by: John McCain

McCain been given a clean bill of health and back to work yet?

Posted by: Rick in SK at July 24, 2017 01:33 PM (FZYNt)

287 McCain been given a clean bill of health and back to work yet?
Posted by: Rick in SK at July 24, 2017 01:33 PM (FZYNt)

I doubt he is ever coming back..but he will "linger" for months denying PDT a vote.

Posted by: Nevergiveup at July 24, 2017 01:34 PM (5y11N)

288 sorry forgot the /sarc tag

Posted by: Rick in SK at July 24, 2017 01:35 PM (FZYNt)

289 So..... Death Panel.

Amirite?

Posted by: fixerupper at July 24, 2017 01:21 PM (8XRCm)


BUT, they did it with some classic refined British terminology: "The Independent Panel Advisory Board!"

Oh, wait...

Posted by: Hrothgar at July 24, 2017 01:35 PM (gwPgz)

290 I do plan on visiting England next summer for the 100th anniversary of the RAF, visit Churchill's grave - say farewell to what good is left over there.

Posted by: josephistan at July 24, 2017 01:35 PM (7HtZB)

291 McCain been given a clean bill of health and back to work yet?

You know the kind of cancer where you get better?

I don't think McCain has that kind.

Posted by: Christopher R Taylor at July 24, 2017 01:35 PM (39g3+)

292 McCain been given a clean bill of health and back to work yet?
Posted by: Rick in SK at July 24, 2017 01:33 PM (FZYNt)

----

Side note.


Notice that John McCain *doesnt* go to the VA.

Posted by: fixerupper at July 24, 2017 01:35 PM (8XRCm)

293 I think Charlie is suffering, and experimental therapy would

a) , in all likelihood have prolonged that suffering and
b) I doubt any insurance company would have paid for it.

I agree that
a) makes the urge to go forward with the therapy questionable
b) does not make this an issue of private vs public healthcare FUNDING.

BUT
If you have a single payer, everybody in the professions have the same basic set of personal and professional interests. There are no competing interests, and you run the (strong, if not inevitable, and in my opinion completely realised) risk of ideological, institutional and ethical monobloc formation. This cannot be a good thing in the long run (unless you are naive or stupid): institutions have to be able to evolve with a minimum of people getting mangled in the gears. That's what has gone on here. This never should have been in the news. No one should be telling two obviously caring, motivated, non-delusional parents that they need to give up hope when they have created on their own the conditions in which to realize the pursuit of their hope.

Just my 0.02.

Posted by: Brigadefuhrer Kurt Meyer at July 24, 2017 01:36 PM (CPk08)

294 "I doubt he is ever coming back..but he will "linger" for months denying PDT a vote."

To the last, I grapple with Trump; From Hell's heart, I stab at Trump; For hate's sake, I spit my last breath at Trump.

Posted by: Soon to be Zombie John McCain at July 24, 2017 01:36 PM (+7/1f)

295
I doubt he is ever coming back..but he will "linger" for months denying PDT a vote.

Posted by: Nevergiveup
_______________

Again,, It's a tax. Works for pretty much everything...

Posted by: Justice Roberts at July 24, 2017 01:36 PM (UMWic)

296 Off shitty Nazi sock

Posted by: Alcoholic Asshole Shut IN at July 24, 2017 01:37 PM (CPk08)

297 You'll take a number, and stand in line with everyone else.

Posted by: simplemind at July 24, 2017 01:33 PM (vfRHw)


I'm sure that is rigorously enforced for ALL government officials in Canada needing medical attention!

Posted by: Hrothgar at July 24, 2017 01:37 PM (gwPgz)

298 To the last, I grapple with Trump; From Hell's heart, I stab at Trump; For hate's sake, I spit my last breath at Trump.
Posted by: Soon to be Zombie John McCain




Spit already you old goat.

Posted by: rickb223 at July 24, 2017 01:37 PM (Bd48Y)

299 Justice delayed, IS Justice denied...

Posted by: Don Q. at July 24, 2017 12:24 PM (NgKpN)

Which is why the parents should have simply spirited him out of Britain without making him into a cause celebre. Act first, then seek forgiveness, rather than seek permission which will never be forthcoming.

Posted by: Alberta Oil Peon at July 24, 2017 01:37 PM (XUcIQ)

300 Above all, free people simply want to government to leave them alone to live their lives. But the all-powerful nanny state refuses to leave you alone.

Leftists claim they want the government "out of the bedroom" but in fact they demand that government reach in to every aspect of our lives and sit in the room like the proverbial 800 pound gorilla.

When will we take back our lives from the nanny state here in the US? When will we demand that Ryan and McConnell start representing us and get the state out of our lives? When?

Posted by: WarEagle82 at July 24, 2017 01:37 PM (xUc0d)

301 If it's not the State, then it's the Market. "

They're british subjects. No markets involved. Just the crown.

As an aside, I chuckle at the "insurance" bit - can you imagine the outcry had this been a case of an insurer publicly NOT covering Charlie?

Posted by: Anon a mouse... at July 24, 2017 01:38 PM (MINbv)

302 As McCain holds the Goldwater seat, and we saw what happened to him at the end of his time, so the cycle continues. At least Goldwater knew when to call it quits, McCain seems to be going the Ted Kennedy route.

Posted by: Rick in SK at July 24, 2017 01:38 PM (FZYNt)

303 287 McCain been given a clean bill of health and back to work yet?
Posted by: Rick in SK at July 24, 2017 01:33 PM (FZYNt)

I doubt he is ever coming back..but he will "linger" for months denying PDT a vote.
Posted by: Nevergiveup at July 24, 2017 01:34 PM (5y11N)

and in other "Finagle's Law" news...

There is anecdotal evidence that certain non traditional treatments can have a really good effect against Brain Cancer....

That Treatment? is based on Hemp Oil... the very Hemp products that McCain has spent his career making illegal.... and which the McCain supported drug industries have not bothered to research (because they can't make bank off it)...

Finagle's Law... the Universe tends towards the perverse....

Posted by: Don Q. at July 24, 2017 01:38 PM (NgKpN)

304
Which is why the parents should have simply spirited him out of Britain without making him into a cause celebre. Act first, then seek forgiveness, rather than seek permission which will never be forthcoming.
Posted by: Alberta Oil Peon at July 24, 2017 01:37 PM (XUcIQ)


Hard to do to a kid on assisted ventilation.....

Posted by: Alcoholic Asshole Shut IN at July 24, 2017 01:38 PM (CPk08)

305 Which is why the parents should have simply spirited him out of Britain without making him into a cause celebre.

I think they couldn't. I mean they would have to have a special medical rig to keep the baby alive in transit.

Posted by: Christopher R Taylor at July 24, 2017 01:38 PM (39g3+)

306 There is a major difference between...

I will not...

and

You CAN not..."

A-friggen-men. Preach it.

Posted by: Anon a mouse... at July 24, 2017 01:40 PM (MINbv)

307 But the all-powerful nanny state refuses to leave you alone.

---------


Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated, but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

CS Lewis

Posted by: fixerupper at July 24, 2017 01:40 PM (8XRCm)

308 Can't help but wonder if the were named Achmed Faisal, and not Charlie Gard, what the outcome would have been.

Posted by: Alberta Oil Peon at July 24, 2017 01:41 PM (XUcIQ)

309
I doubt he is ever coming back..but he will "linger" for months denying PDT a vote.
Posted by: Nevergiveup at July 24, 2017 01:34 PM (5y11N)


I saw a report yesterday that said people with his diagnosis can hang on up to 5 years

Posted by: Deplorable Male Logic at July 24, 2017 01:41 PM (lKyWE)

310 308 Can't help but wonder if the were named Achmed Faisal, and not Charlie Gard, what the outcome would have been.
Posted by: Alberta Oil Peon

Or one of those kids the parents aren't going to assign gender to at birth

Posted by: Rick in SK at July 24, 2017 01:42 PM (FZYNt)

311 I saw a report yesterday that said people with his diagnosis can hang on up to 5 years




At age 80?

Posted by: rickb223 at July 24, 2017 01:42 PM (Bd48Y)

312
He lived a morally abhorent lifestyle where he
slept around with other women. He had it coming to him. And besides, I
smugly judge him, cozy in the belief that such a thing could never
happen to me.*



* shit I learned here Posted by: ScoggDog at July 24, 2017 01:31 PM (Niu5G)
=====

^^^THIS^^^

If you are fat, or you take drugs, or are an inconvenient child, or smoke, or drink, get divorced, or have a stupid sex life, or ...

Where is the simple Judaeo-Christian concept 'there, but for the grace of G-d, go I'.

Posted by: mustbequantum at July 24, 2017 01:42 PM (MIKMs)

313 >>> but in fact they demand that government reach in to every aspect of our lives and sit in the room like the proverbial 800 pound gorilla.

Gorilla: "Hey, can we knock it off with the 800 pound gorilla jokes? You realize our average weight is like 400, 500 pounds tops, right? You don't see my ass riding around on a scooter in the Walmart snack aisle, do you? Or any other gorilla? That's your species, Bub."

Posted by: Banana Splits Guy at July 24, 2017 01:42 PM (UCap9)

314 Can't help but wonder if the were named Achmed Faisal, and not Charlie Gard, what the outcome would have been.
---
Pretty sure the Mayor of London would be screaming that all must be done to save this precious child of allah and that the government would have paid for it all.

Posted by: shibumi at July 24, 2017 01:43 PM (aT+Bx)

315 291 McCain been given a clean bill of health and back to work yet?

You know the kind of cancer where you get better?

I don't think McCain has that kind.
Posted by: Christopher R Taylor at July 24, 2017

...

Right.

So not only does he have the most understandable of all possible reasons to resign and enjoy to the extent he can his remaining days with those he loves, he is in a position in which to not resign is unquestionably self interested and in fact damaging to his constituents interest.

Posted by: TexasDan at July 24, 2017 01:44 PM (aHz7f)

316 The triage concept and principle makes ethical sense if you are in a combat or disaster environment where resources, medical personnel, and time are all in critically short supply.

Claiming that delaying and/or denying medical services is acceptable because the eventual outcome might not be favorable to the patient in a non-triage environment is a criminal act in my opinion.

Posted by: Hrothgar at July 24, 2017 01:44 PM (gwPgz)

317

Just let me be clear ...
----B.Obama

If you like your Doctor, you can keep your Doctor.

Posted by: Bedazzled in Candy Crush Land at July 24, 2017 01:44 PM (m9X4Y)

318 287 McCain been given a clean bill of health and back to work yet?
Posted by: Rick in SK at July 24, 2017 01:33 PM (FZYNt)

I doubt he is ever coming back..but he will "linger" for months denying PDT a vote.
Posted by: Nevergiveup at July 24, 2017 01:34 PM (5y11N)

If you, if you could return
Don't let it burn
Don't let it fade
I'm sure I'm not being rude
It's just your losing altitude
You're tearing planes apart
You're crashing every day
For me

We swore we would be true
And fellow, so did you
So why where you in the Keating Five ?
Why all this Maverick jive ?
Were you lying all the time ?
Was it just a game to you ?
Your bullshit's getting deep.

You know we're all such fools for you
The Senate's wrapped around your finger
Do you have to let it linger?
Do you have to, do you have to, do you have to let it linger ?

Posted by: The Dingleberries at July 24, 2017 01:44 PM (Niu5G)

319
Which is why the parents should have simply spirited him out of Britain without making him into a cause celebre. Act first, then seek forgiveness, rather than seek permission which will never be forthcoming. Posted by: Alberta Oil Peon at July 24, 2017 01:37 PM (XUcIQ)


How were they supposed to due that when the hospital tightly controlled access to Charlie?

Posted by: Deplorable Male Logic at July 24, 2017 01:44 PM (lKyWE)

320 Am I the only one who will stick up for Death Panels?

How else are you going to make decisions on what to treat and what not to treat? Sure, it's fun to say "let's treat everything with every high tech thing we can think of until the everyone runs out of money", but it's not too practical.

Everyone's going to die. Sometimes it's Grammy and other times it's an innocent little child. Life's a bitch.

There is still a need to figure out in advance what is worth the time, money and human suffering associated with every treatment.

Posted by: jwest at July 24, 2017 01:45 PM (Zs4uk)

321 This is very much like the court in Texas happily assessing $65,000 in child support from a poor bastard that was fingered by some woman. DNA tests have already proven that he ain't the guy, and have proven that she lied when she claimed that he "was the only only possible father".

But because some court ordained date passed, the ruling cannot be reversed. Appeal might be possible. In a sane world, the DNA test should have called a halt to it all.
_______________________

Problem is that the original court hearing on the woman's claim for child support was in 2003. Her ex-boyfriend, the man she claimed was the father, never showed up at the hearing to contest her claim, or request a DNA test.

The man claims that he didn't know of the child's existence until recently, but he would have to have been served with notice of the 2003 hearing. If he wasn't actually served, then he was denied due process, in violation of his constitutional rights, and he should have the right to contest the judgment now.

If he was served and he ignored the notice (either because he thought he was the father, or because he was just hoping the whole thing would go away), then he's screwed.

Posted by: TrivialPursuer at July 24, 2017 01:45 PM (IBcGJ)

322 Matthew 25:40-

And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

Posted by: BurtTC at July 24, 2017 01:45 PM (TOk1P)

323
McCain is doing what he loves best when he is in Congress playing mind games with the rich and powerful.

Posted by: Bedazzled in Candy Crush Land at July 24, 2017 01:45 PM (m9X4Y)

324 No bibs allowed on the Senate floor.

Posted by: wth at July 24, 2017 01:45 PM (HgMAr)

325 So, each Doctor is 1800 times more likely, to kill you, than an individual gun....

On a good day.

Posted by: Doctor Vinny BoomBatz at July 24, 2017 01:46 PM (FhXTo)

326 ...If you are fat, or you take drugs, or are an inconvenient child, or smoke, or drink, get divorced, or have a stupid sex life, or ...


Hey...I don't smoke...
Also, stop stalking me.

Posted by: Mark Andrew Edwards at July 24, 2017 01:46 PM (3OIiX)

327
At age 80?
Posted by: rickb223 at July 24, 2017 01:42 PM (Bd48Y)


Never underestimate the power of spite

Posted by: Deplorable Male Logic at July 24, 2017 01:46 PM (lKyWE)

328 The King is dead; long live the State.

Posted by: BurtTC at July 24, 2017 01:46 PM (TOk1P)

329 Where is the simple Judaeo-Christian concept 'there, but for the grace of G-d, go I'.

Christian doctrine judges people for failing to live up to God's law, but also recognizes that no Christian has either. That's the entire point of salvation; that's why Jesus was incarnated and lived on earth, and died on the cross. That's the central doctrine of Christianity: all have fallen short.

So yeah, you live a debauched life of sin and corruption, don't be surprised when things go badly for you (STDs, regret, child support, angry women, etc etc) but there's nothing about that (of for that matter anything anyone has argued here despite the straw man Jock offers) that says that you should be unjustly punished.

The Bible teaches that worship is to do justice (and love mercy, and walk humbly before the Lord), justice is deeply important to Christianity. Justice demands punishment for our sins, a punishment Christ took on Himself. If you are not guilty, you should not be punished, no matter what sort of life you've led. Nobody here would argue otherwise.

Posted by: Christopher R Taylor at July 24, 2017 01:47 PM (39g3+)

330 So not only does he have the most understandable of all possible reasons to resign and enjoy to the extent he can his remaining days with those he loves, he is in a position in which to not resign is unquestionably self interested and in fact damaging to his constituents interest.
Posted by: TexasDan

He is 80, by all accounts cheated death many times, with his time in Nam and the assorted aircraft incidents, and don't forget, in 2008 we were told he would die in office if elected, so by living through the entire Obama presidency, he has been living on borrowed time. Leave now and enjoy what life you have left. nobody is going to think less of you for doing that.

Posted by: Rick in SK at July 24, 2017 01:47 PM (FZYNt)

331 If he was served and he ignored the notice (either because he thought he was the father, or because he was just hoping the whole thing would go away), then he's screwed.
Posted by: TrivialPursuer

Again.

If this was a case of rape or murder, no one would be saying, too bad, he's screwed. He's NOT the father. The court order wasn't carved into a tablet.

This court, like the NHS, needs to get over its self.

Posted by: Blue Hen at July 24, 2017 01:47 PM (326rv)

332 "Am I the only one who will stick up for Death Panels?
How else are you going to make decisions on what to treat and what not to treat? "

You get past a certain age, say 70 or 75, all you're entitled to is a nurse of your choice and all the morphine you want.

Posted by: Ignoramus at July 24, 2017 01:48 PM (+7/1f)

333 145 I watched a British show called MI5 this weekend. Now you would think they would deal with terrorists, right? No, the terrorist was an American pro-life advocate that was killing UK doctors.

Posted by: notsothoreau at July 24, 2017 12:53 PM (JKNZq)


MI5 will be hearing from our lawyers.

Good DAY, sir.

Posted by: Law and Order Story Editors at July 24, 2017 01:48 PM (gJput)

334 > But to "forbid" parents to seek alternatives. Wow.

The legal opinion here is online... says that when the parents and the hospital disagree in a case like this, somebody (the court) has to determine what's in the best interest of the child.

https://www.judiciary.gov.uk/wp-content/uploads/2017/07/gosh-v-gard-24072017.pdf

I guess it's supposed to be just like any other situation where the benevolent state decides to take somebody's kid away for the kid's own good.

Posted by: Geronimo Stilton at July 24, 2017 01:49 PM (OVUYQ)

335 We should never have tried to impose Democracy on other countries... we
should have conditioned our support upon their actually embracing a US
style view on Rights.


Actually the squabbling of Big D Democracy keeps them busy - it's a good thing.

Posted by: DaveA at July 24, 2017 01:49 PM (FhXTo)

336 Posted by: TrivialPursuer at July 24, 2017 01:45 PM (IBcG

What would have been the results if he had shown up? That's where legal logic gets in the way of actual logic.

Posted by: Jack Sock at July 24, 2017 01:49 PM (0XyIg)

337 With ever passing day, Logan's Run looks more and more like prophesy and less and less like fiction,

Posted by: DocJ at July 24, 2017 01:49 PM (NYS7S)

338 311 I saw a report yesterday that said people with his diagnosis can hang on up to 5 years




At age 80?
Posted by: rickb223 at July 24, 2017 01:42 PM (Bd48Y)

My Father got the same thing when he was 80... he lasted just over a year....

But the last few months were horrible, as he slowly lost abilities to function.

And yes, he exhibited the EXACT same symptoms as McCain did during that hearing... where he slowly but surely lost the ability to get his thoughts out coherently.

Posted by: Don Q. at July 24, 2017 01:50 PM (NgKpN)

339 There is still a need to figure out in advance what is worth the time, money and human suffering associated with every treatment.

Posted by: jwest at July 24, 2017 01:45 PM (Zs4uk)

-----

And in a pefect world.... those conversations happen between the family and the medical staff. Your zeal to place that decision matrix in the federal government, moving further away form the perfect world rather than closer to it.... befuddles me.

Posted by: fixerupper at July 24, 2017 01:50 PM (8XRCm)

340 320 Am I the only one who will stick up for Death Panels?

How else are you going to make decisions on what to treat and what not to treat? Sure, it's fun to say "let's treat everything with every high tech thing we can think of until the everyone runs out of money", but it's not too practical.

Everyone's going to die. Sometimes it's Grammy and other times it's an innocent little child. Life's a bitch.

There is still a need to figure out in advance what is worth the time, money and human suffering associated with every treatment.

Posted by: jwest at July 24, 2017 01:45 PM (Zs4uk)


Nope. Usually you can work these things out case by case with the individuals involved. Most people are sane, practical and of good will, when it comes to the nuts and bolts of basic existence. If you want a faceless, remote panel that doesn't know you from a rutabaga to make detailed decisions about you and your family, get in touch with me and I'll figure out how to appoint one just for you. Leave everyone else out of it.

Posted by: Alcoholic Asshole Shut IN at July 24, 2017 01:50 PM (CPk08)

341 If he was served and he ignored the notice (either because he thought he was the father, or because he was just hoping the whole thing would go away), then he's screwed.



That shouldn't matter. The only thing that should matter is, is he the biological father? And that answer is, NO.

Posted by: rickb223 at July 24, 2017 01:50 PM (Bd48Y)

342 You get past a certain age, say 70 or 75, all you're entitled to is a nurse of your choice and all the morphine you want.

Posted by: Ignoramus at July 24, 2017 01:48 PM (+7/1f)



It seems that the healthcare budget is a little short this year so we're going to be reducing the morphine access age to 50, and Lena Dunham is the only nurse available!

Posted by: Hrothgar at July 24, 2017 01:50 PM (gwPgz)

343 McCain has brain cancer. And he's old. The combination can explain his increasingly erratic behavior.

I don't know Lindsay Graham's excuse.

Posted by: Ignoramus at July 24, 2017 01:51 PM (+7/1f)

344
What would have been the results if he had shown up? That's where legal logic gets in the way of actual logic.
Posted by: Jack Sock at July 24, 2017 01:49 PM (0XyIg)


They would have been forced to review the case which normally can take anywhere from 3-6 months.By not showing up the state can legally enter a default judgement

Posted by: Deplorable Male Logic at July 24, 2017 01:51 PM (lKyWE)

345 I don't know Lindsay Graham's excuse.
Posted by: Ignoramus at July 24, 2017 01:51 PM (+7/1f)

----

He's in love with John.

Posted by: fixerupper at July 24, 2017 01:52 PM (8XRCm)

346 And in a pefect world.... those conversations happen between the family and the medical staff. Your zeal to place that decision matrix in the federal government, moving further away form the perfect world rather than closer to it.... befuddles me.
Posted by: fixerupper at July 24, 2017 01:50 PM (8XRCm)
.

The federal government has nothing to do with any medical decision until someone asks it to pay for the treatment.

If you want it to remain private between the family and the medical staff, that's great. Just keep the bill the same way.

Posted by: jwest at July 24, 2017 01:53 PM (Zs4uk)

347 The legal opinion here is online... says that when the parents and the hospital disagree in a case like this, somebody (the court) has to determine what's in the best interest of the child.

https://www.judiciary.gov.uk/wp-content/uploads/2017/07/gosh-v-gard-24072017.pdf

I guess it's supposed to be just like any other situation where the benevolent state decides to take somebody's kid away for the kid's own good.
Posted by: Geronimo Stilton at July 24, 2017 01:49 PM (OVUYQ)


If the judge and the hospital both work for the same employer, then that's called a collusion of interests. Inevitable in some settings, but not here.

Posted by: Alcoholic Asshole Shut In at July 24, 2017 01:53 PM (CPk08)

348 You get past a certain age, say 70 or 75, all you're entitled to is a nurse of your choice and all the morphine you want.


Can I take that deal now? You did say nurse of my choice, right?

Posted by: Bandersnatch at July 24, 2017 01:53 PM (gIRsn)

349 The illogical, counter-scientific method on which AGW nonsense is based has now been internalized. The burden here is logically and entirely on those advancing the rather outlandish hypothesis that human activity is affecting climate - their burden is to demonstrate that what is being seen is not natural variation, variation that is known to be the norm for the planet based on the geologic record and other unambiguous hard data. The red/blue team thing sort of validates the departure from logic and scientific method.

Posted by: rhomboid at July 24, 2017 12:41 PM (QDnY+)

You need the Red Team because the alarmist mob is not doing Science; they are doing agitprop. The system is being gamed so that skeptical scientists do not get funding.

Posted by: Alberta Oil Peon at July 24, 2017 01:53 PM (XUcIQ)

350 Posted by: jwest at July 24, 2017 01:45 PM (Zs4uk)

-----

And in a pefect world.... those conversations happen between the family and the medical staff. Your zeal to place that decision matrix in the federal government, moving further away form the perfect world rather than closer to it.... befuddles me.
Posted by: fixerupper at July 24, 2017 01:50 PM (8XRCm)


Once upon a time the name jwest was synonymous with befuddlement around here. I believe he's toned it down recently (I don't know for sure, as I skip his posts), but when I have noticed him lately he's bragging about a restaurant or something.

Make no mistake though, jwest loves him some Big Government.

Posted by: BurtTC at July 24, 2017 01:54 PM (TOk1P)

351 343 McCain has brain cancer. And he's old. The combination can explain his increasingly erratic behavior.

I don't know Lindsay Graham's excuse.

Posted by: Ignoramus at July 24, 2017 01:51 PM (+7/1f)


Semen poisoning?

I'll see myself out.

Posted by: Jeff Weimer at July 24, 2017 01:54 PM (fuyzl)

352 The federal government has nothing to do with any medical decision until someone asks it to pay for the treatment.

And given this, why anyone would willingly want to bring this horror more fully to the USA (considering we're already 75% of the way there) is beyond me.

Posted by: DocJ at July 24, 2017 01:54 PM (NYS7S)

353 Nope. Usually you can work these things out case by case with the
individuals involved. Most people are sane, practical and of good will,
when it comes to the nuts and bolts of basic existence. If you want a
faceless, remote panel that doesn't know you from a rutabaga to make
detailed decisions about you and your family, get in touch with me and
I'll figure out how to appoint one just for you. Leave everyone else out
of it.
=====

As much as I admire and appreciate jwest, sometimes his homeowner's association hat gets a little tight. After all, it is for the good of the community./s

Posted by: mustbequantum at July 24, 2017 01:55 PM (MIKMs)

354 "You get past a certain age, say 70 or 75, all you're entitled to is a nurse of your choice and all the morphine you want."

No morphine for you!

It's an OPIOID. You might ABUSE it.

Posted by: torquewrench at July 24, 2017 01:55 PM (ujwCG)

355 If you want it to remain private between the family and the medical staff, that's great. Just keep the bill the same way.



Charlie's parents were trying. The crown wouldn't let the keep it private and pay for it that way.

Posted by: rickb223 at July 24, 2017 01:55 PM (Bd48Y)

356 This court, like the NHS, needs to get over its self.
Posted by: Blue Hen at July 24, 2017 01:47 PM (326rv)
_________________

IOW, this court should simply ignore the law in Texas.

That's not the role of the court. If the law is wrong, then the legislature needs to change the law.

I agree that it's not fair to force men who are not the biological fathers to pay child support for other mens' children. If I were a TX legislator (or a legislator in any of the other states which have similar laws), I would work to get the law changed.

Posted by: TrivialPursuer at July 24, 2017 01:55 PM (IBcGJ)

357 320 Am I the only one who will stick up for Death Panels?

How else are you going to make decisions on what to treat and what not to treat? Sure, it's fun to say "let's treat everything with every high tech thing we can think of until the everyone runs out of money", but it's not too practical.

Everyone's going to die. Sometimes it's Grammy and other times it's an innocent little child. Life's a bitch.

There is still a need to figure out in advance what is worth the time, money and human suffering associated with every treatment.



Posted by: jwest at July 24, 2017 01:45 PM (Zs4uk)


Yes, because as long as they are State actors, with access to the Motor Voter records, and can hand down a Death Sentence because you're not registered to the Preferred Party...

Posted by: Hikaru at July 24, 2017 01:56 PM (XMDuf)

358 I don't know Lindsay Graham's excuse.
Posted by: Ignoramus at July 24, 2017 01:51 PM (+7/1f)


Putting sausage in places where it doesn't belong?

Posted by: BurtTC at July 24, 2017 01:56 PM (TOk1P)

359 The man claims that he didn't know of the child's existence until recently, but he would have to have been served with notice of the 2003 hearing.


Read AtC's rant. He did not have to have been served. States are notorious for mailing process to last known but no longer valid addresses then claiming proper service was made whether the putative father got it or not, too bad so sad.

Posted by: Insomniac - Not Disappointed, Just Angry at July 24, 2017 01:56 PM (0mRoj)

360 347 The legal opinion here is online... says that when the parents and the hospital disagree in a case like this, somebody (the court) has to determine what's in the best interest of the child.

https://www.judiciary.gov.uk/wp-content/uploads/2017/07/gosh-v-gard-24072017.pdf

I guess it's supposed to be just like any other situation where the benevolent state decides to take somebody's kid away for the kid's own good.
Posted by: Geronimo Stilton at July 24, 2017 01:49 PM (OVUYQ)

In order to save the village we had to destroy it.

Posted by: Anonosaurus Wrecks at July 24, 2017 01:56 PM (DEeYP)

361 "If you want a faceless, remote panel that doesn't know you from a rutabaga to make detailed decisions about you and your family, get in touch with me and I'll figure out how to appoint one just for you. Leave everyone else out of it."
Posted by: Alcoholic Asshole Shut IN at July 24, 2017 01:50 PM (CPk0


All you have to do to be left alone is pay for your own healthcare.

But once you ask the government to pay for your treatment, there needs to be some regulating body that puts limits on who and what is going to be treated.

Posted by: jwest at July 24, 2017 01:56 PM (Zs4uk)

362 The federal government has nothing to do with any medical decision until someone asks it to pay for the treatment.

If you want it to remain private between the family and the medical staff, that's great. Just keep the bill the same way.
Posted by: jwest at July 24, 2017 01:53 PM (Zs4uk)


What generally happens is that the gov't makes lists of treatments it will and will not pay for, and if anyone wants anything different they apply for exceptions. It really isn't a death panel or anything like that: it's a treatment by treatment cost benefit analysis, with some wiggle room for individuals.

Sounds great in theory, but it tends to demonstrate some interesting patient sized holes, for a variety of reasons. Its best to have the flexibility of opting out of that system.

Posted by: Alcoholic Asshole Shut In at July 24, 2017 01:57 PM (CPk08)

363 I am not a rutabaga!!

Posted by: Banana Splits Guy at July 24, 2017 01:57 PM (UCap9)

364
Putting sausage in places where it doesn't belong?
Posted by: BurtTC at July 24, 2017 01:56 PM (TOk1P)



On a Pizza? I hate sausage on pizza

Posted by: Deplorable Male Logic at July 24, 2017 01:57 PM (lKyWE)

365 Posted by: Deplorable Male Logic at July 24, 2017 01:51 PM (lKyWE)

You missed the point. He would have been objectively found not to be the father. The woman and child suffered no damages by him. That he can be legally found to be the father is the legal logic I'm referring to.

Posted by: Jack Sock at July 24, 2017 01:57 PM (0XyIg)

366 Make no mistake though, jwest loves him some Big Government.
Posted by: BurtTC



As long as he's Big Government.

Posted by: rickb223 at July 24, 2017 01:57 PM (Bd48Y)

367 All you have to do to be left alone is pay for your own healthcare.

But once you ask the government to pay for your treatment, there needs to be some regulating body that puts limits on who and what is going to be treated.

Posted by: jwest at July 24, 2017 01:56 PM (Zs4uk)


Which. Is. Why. We. Don't. Want. NHS. style. Single. Payer. in. The. USA.

Posted by: Jeff Weimer at July 24, 2017 01:59 PM (fuyzl)

368 All you have to do to be left alone is pay for your own healthcare.

Which is made rather difficult when the Fed.Gov and their state subsidiaries are taxing me to pay for "health care" for everyone else.

Posted by: DocJ at July 24, 2017 01:59 PM (NYS7S)

369 Putting sausage in places where it doesn't belong?
Posted by: BurtTC at July 24, 2017 01:56 PM (TOk1P)



On a Pizza? I hate sausage on pizza
Posted by: Deplorable Male Logic at July 24, 2017 01:57 PM (lKyWE)


Not.... exactly.

Posted by: BurtTC at July 24, 2017 01:59 PM (TOk1P)

370 "I believe he's toned it down recently (I don't know for sure, as I skip his posts), but when I have noticed him lately he's bragging about a restaurant or something. "

Make no mistake though, jwest loves him some Big Government.
Posted by: BurtTC at July 24, 2017 01:54 PM (TOk1P)


If you keep skipping my posts, you're destined to remain as ignorant as you are now.

Posted by: jwest at July 24, 2017 02:00 PM (Zs4uk)

371 368 All you have to do to be left alone is pay for your own healthcare.

Which is made rather difficult when the Fed.Gov and their state subsidiaries are taxing me to pay for "health care" for everyone else.
Posted by: DocJ at July 24, 2017 01:59 PM (NYS7S)

Quite. The government has made this increasingly difficult, if not effectively impossible for most people, since the 1940s.

Posted by: Insomniac - Not Disappointed, Just Angry at July 24, 2017 02:00 PM (0mRoj)

372 The big driver of healthcare expense is chronic conditions, things like diabetes, and congestive heart failure. Patients don't get cured. Then add things like cancer. Older people are more at risk.

Diabetes alone on current trajectory will break the bank.

Posted by: Ignoramus at July 24, 2017 02:00 PM (+7/1f)

373 A new thread has been posted, my friends.

Posted by: The mass media can all EABOD at July 24, 2017 02:01 PM (y/FbI)

374 The man claims that he didn't know of the child's existence until recently, but he would have to have been served with notice of the 2003 hearing. If he wasn't actually served, then he was denied due process, in violation of his constitutional rights, and he should have the right to contest the judgment now.

If he was served and he ignored the notice (either because he thought he was the father, or because he was just hoping the whole thing would go away), then he's screwed.
Posted by: TrivialPursuer at July 24, 2017 01:45 PM (IBcGJ)


I do not know about Texas law but I do know a thing or 12 about service issues.

You know what's effective service? The sheriff or a private service company hangs a notice on a door. Or a letter is sent certified mail and is signed for by a person, any person, at that address. Or the papers are handed to a person who opens the door at the address and the sheriff marks it served even if the person isn't the person to whom the papers are addressed because, hey, it's a person over 18 who is at the residence.

Most jurisdictions got rid of the requirement for actual personal service on civil matters ages ago.

Once it's marked on the docket as served, even if the service is improper, the court consider it served and then the defendant must object to service. Of course, if you don't do that before the default, welp, too bad for you!

Story time!

Old Firm was doing pro bono work helping people going through foreclosures. Ninety plus percent of the time, we were working to delay matters to allow the people to move out and then turn the keys over. But then there was the rest.

Once we attacked service because it was service upon a person at the residence not the homeowner. Opposing counsel was all indignant that service was fine because it was her daughter. Our reply? Yes. Her 13 year old daughter. It was literally written on the return of service by the sheriff that she is 13. The statute says only people 18 or older. She was not and you had knowledge of that. No, no, you can't hand papers to a 13 year old and say that's fine.

Posted by: alexthechick - where's my flag at July 24, 2017 02:01 PM (mf5HN)

375 Posted by: jwest at July 24, 2017 01:56 PM (Zs4uk)

Don't agree entirely but they should be able to limit the types of treatment provided that we pay for just as they do in any regular medical insurance policy regardless of age. Most major med policies have a million dollar limit too.

Posted by: Jack Sock at July 24, 2017 02:02 PM (0XyIg)

376 Am I the only one who will stick up for Death Panels?
--

There is hospice. It is decided upon by the doctor/ doctors involved.

As for favoring death panels, ask your parents what they think. Or your granparents. Or your neighbor who is over 70 with health issues.

Ask them how they feel about having strangers who are not involved in your case, who are not doctors, or perhaps even in the mecial field, if they should have the right to deny treatment and let you die.

IMHO, denying treatment-- except in hospice cases where all doctors say there is no hope-- only benefits one group.

The Insurance Companies.

And if people want their parents and grandparents to be denied fluids so they can die of dehydration-- which they do in the UK in the Liverepool Care Pathyway-- hey, it's on their conscience, not mine.

Just don't ask me to endorse the government stepping in and playg God.

Posted by: shibumi at July 24, 2017 02:02 PM (aT+Bx)

377 The federal government has nothing to do with any medical decision until someone asks it to pay for the treatment.



If you want it to remain private between the family and the medical staff, that's great. Just keep the bill the same way.

Posted by: jwest at July 24, 2017 01:53 PM (Zs4uk)

I'll agree with that. If you're paying for your medical care out of your own pocket, you can pay for and receive whatever you like.
If your insurance company is paying for it, they get a veto on paying, depending on the terms of the policy covering the condition (which is to say the decision was made when you bought the policy and while you may opt out of treatment for whatever reason, you don't get to demand more than the risk you were paying for).
If taxpayers are funding the bill, someone who represents their interests gets veto power for whatever reason they want. The rest of us are not under any obligation to keep you around no matter the cost.

Posted by: Methos at July 24, 2017 02:02 PM (3Liv/)

378 Am I the only one who will stick up for Death Panels?

How else are you going to make decisions on what to treat and what not to treat? Sure, it's fun to say "let's treat everything with every high tech thing we can think of until the everyone runs out of money", but it's not too practical.
__________________________

It's one thing to say "we won't pay for the experimental treatment for your sick baby."

It's another thing to say "we won't pay for the experimental treatment for your sick baby, and we won't let you pay for it with your own money either, and if you try to remove your baby from our hospital, we will use the full force of the law to stop you."

Posted by: TrivialPursuer at July 24, 2017 02:02 PM (IBcGJ)

379 I think for McCain, being senator is all he has in his life. He doesn't have anything else. He has been Senator longer than anything else in his lifetime, its his central meaning and goal. I suspect that he has convinced himself that he has so much to give and so many battles to fight for the American people it would be selfish for him to resign.

Posted by: Christopher R Taylor at July 24, 2017 02:02 PM (39g3+)

380 372 The big driver of healthcare expense is chronic conditions, things like diabetes, and congestive heart failure. Patients don't get cured. Then add things like cancer. Older people are more at risk.

Diabetes alone on current trajectory will break the bank.
Posted by: Ignoramus at July 24, 2017 02:00 PM (+7/1f)


One big breaker of socialised healthcare systems is the relentless upward cost of employee benefits and pensions for the myriads of healthcare workers. ....

Posted by: Alcoholic Asshole Shut In at July 24, 2017 02:03 PM (CPk08)

381 The federal government has nothing to do with any medical decision until someone asks it to pay for the treatment.




Except for abortion, huh?

Posted by: rickb223 at July 24, 2017 02:03 PM (Bd48Y)

382 If by 'die with dignity' they mean to put me down like a sick dog, then I go out clawing and scratching.

Nothing dignified or right about medical murder or coerced suicide.

Posted by: troyriser at July 24, 2017 02:04 PM (Fw5cQ)

383 If taxpayers are funding the bill, someone who represents their interests gets veto power for whatever reason they want.



Again, except for abortion, huh?
Then the taxpayer can STFU & STFD.

Posted by: rickb223 at July 24, 2017 02:05 PM (Bd48Y)

384 God damn the State.

Posted by: Beverly at July 24, 2017 02:06 PM (9H5P/)

385 Once there is a written standard that lays out the condition, age, other illnesses, etc. that will or will not be treated, an individual can either accept that or make plans for purchasing privately treatment in excess of that.

First, establish the base line.

You can treat anything you want for a long as you want, just as long as you pay for it yourself.

Posted by: jwest at July 24, 2017 02:07 PM (Zs4uk)

386
You missed the point. He would have been objectively found not to be the father. The woman and child suffered no damages by him. That he can be legally found to be the father is the legal logic I'm referring to.
Posted by: Jack Sock at July 24, 2017 01:57 PM (0XyIg)


It doesn't matter if he's the legal father by not showing up the court assumes he is not contesting the case and enters a default judgement.After that it's moot.

Posted by: Deplorable Male Logic at July 24, 2017 02:07 PM (lKyWE)

387 Yeah it one thing to say "We will no longer pay to care for this patient" but its another entirely to say "and you cannot either."

The thing is, the same people arguing for socialized medicine on the grounds of "right to health care" and "dignity of human life" are the very ones arguing that people should have that care cut off at a certain point, for the good of the many. You can't have it both ways. Either its a right or it is not, that right doesn't get cut off because its costing more than you want to pay or you figure they're too old or too sick to pay for.

Posted by: Christopher R Taylor at July 24, 2017 02:07 PM (39g3+)

388 It doesn't matter if he's the legal father by not showing up the court assumes he is not contesting the case and enters a default judgement.After that it's moot.

That may be legal doctrine as written but its not justice.

Posted by: Christopher R Taylor at July 24, 2017 02:08 PM (39g3+)

389 Posted by: rickb223 at July 24, 2017 02:05 PM (Bd48Y)

Okay, there should have been several 'ought to's in my comment. I don't think taxpayers should be funding health care (or the deliberate murder of unborn children as you point out) at all.

Posted by: Methos at July 24, 2017 02:10 PM (3Liv/)

390 "It's another thing to say "we won't pay for the experimental treatment for your sick baby, and we won't let you pay for it with your own money either, and if you try to remove your baby from our hospital, we will use the full force of the law to stop you."
Posted by: TrivialPursuer at July 24, 2017 02:02 PM (IBcGJ)


I agree one hundred percent.

However, if the "state" is preventing the treatment based on a belief that the additional treatment will cause pain and suffering in a hopeless quest for a miracle, I would allow the patient's position to be argued by a "state" advocate.

Posted by: jwest at July 24, 2017 02:11 PM (Zs4uk)

391 First, establish the base line.

You can treat anything you want for a long as you want, just as long as you pay for it yourself.
Posted by: jwest at July 24, 2017 02:07 PM (Zs4uk)


Screw your baseline. I'm not playing in your system. Leave me ... and my paid tax-money ... out of the crazy damn scheme entirely.

Me and my clan are out. The rest of you - collective all you want.

Posted by: ScoggDog at July 24, 2017 02:11 PM (Niu5G)

392
That may be legal doctrine as written but its not justice.
Posted by: Christopher R Taylor at July 24, 2017 02:08 PM (39g3+)


Family courts exist for one reason only and that's to extract money out of men

Posted by: Deplorable Male Logic at July 24, 2017 02:13 PM (lKyWE)

393 IOW, this court should simply ignore the law in Texas.

That's not the role of the court. If the law is wrong, then the legislature needs to change the law.

I agree that it's not fair to force men who are not the biological fathers to pay child support for other mens' children. If I were a TX legislator (or a legislator in any of the other states which have similar laws), I would work to get the law changed.
Posted by: TrivialPursuer

No, actually, this court should try enforcing the law.


It can start by issuing a warrant for mommy and charging her with perjury. I'm willing to bet that Texas has laws against it. It's willing to enforce one set of laws, but not another. Fancy that.

Posted by: Blue Hen at July 24, 2017 02:14 PM (326rv)

394 It doesn't matter if he's the legal father by not showing up the court assumes he is not contesting the case and enters a default judgement.After that it's moot.
Posted by: Deplorable Male Logic

The court that has a vested interest in foisting off support of a kid onto some poor bastard picked at random also has a vested interest in drawing a line in the sand saying, "you may have one shot at fending this off, if we choose to tell you; or if the summons even reaches him.

And this same entity is the one issuing the summons.

Nice racket.

Posted by: Blue Hen at July 24, 2017 02:17 PM (326rv)

395 How were they supposed to due that when the hospital tightly controlled access to Charlie?

Posted by: Deplorable Male Logic at July 24, 2017 01:44 PM (lKyWE)

I don't think they were tightly controlling access to the kid until such time as the parents started going public.

And the longer the parents tried to fight the system through the "proper channels", the worse the kid's condition became.

Posted by: Alberta Oil Peon at July 24, 2017 02:18 PM (XUcIQ)

396 I'll agree with that. If you're paying for your medical care out of your own pocket, you can pay for and receive whatever you like.
If your insurance company is paying for it, they get a veto on paying, depending on the terms of the policy covering the condition (which is to say the decision was made when you bought the policy and while you may opt out of treatment for whatever reason, you don't get to demand more than the risk you were paying for).
If taxpayers are funding the bill, someone who represents their interests gets veto power for whatever reason they want. The rest of us are not under any obligation to keep you around no matter the cost.
Posted by: Methos at July 24, 2017 02:02 PM (3Liv/)


OK, but as soon as you have single payer, toss that out the window. Moreover, when you have socialised medicine, regulatory pressure (to make all healthcare providers the same) on private providers is intense, and can chase them out of the business. You get a two teir system in which the private tier is relentlessly squeezed, and in which people who want to pay for it end up paying twice: once for public care, and once for private. When you create a situation in which state sponsored healthcare is dominant, it creates more problems than it solves.

I'm being kind of telegraphic and sketchy in my replies, becasue I think this is a really complicated subject, but I have worked on multiple different sides of this issue professionally, and all I can say is that you DO NOT want your federal gov't involved in healthcare. You do want (I think) your state gov't involved in basic healthcare infrastructure and a form of minimal insurance, but that's it.

Posted by: Alcoholic Asshole Shut In at July 24, 2017 02:24 PM (CPk08)

397 nood

Posted by: Alcoholic Asshole Shut In at July 24, 2017 02:31 PM (CPk08)

398 That was probably the latest nood in the history of this place. Yay me.

Posted by: Alcoholic Asshole Shut In at July 24, 2017 02:32 PM (CPk08)

399
IOW, this court should simply ignore the law in Texas.

They would never do that because the law is the states way of recouping any welfare benefits paid out to the mother.They don't just go after back child support.

Posted by: Deplorable Male Logic at July 24, 2017 02:33 PM (lKyWE)

400 It doesn't matter if he's the legal father by not showing up the court assumes he is not contesting the case and enters a default judgement.After that it's moot.
Posted by: Deplorable Male Logic at July 24, 2017 02:07 PM (lKyWE)

_________________________

Yep. Even if TX law had required a DNA test confirming paternity before a child support order could be entered against a man, what would happen if the man refused to show up to take the DNA test? If the man had received proper notice, the court would enter a default judgment against him. Maybe he's actually the baby daddy, maybe he's not. But if he doesn't show up so that paternity can be proved or disproved, the court has no other good options.

Posted by: TrivialPursuer at July 24, 2017 02:38 PM (IBcGJ)

401 The Charlie Gard tragedy made me think that the British people are now domestic animals at least as far as the British government is concerned. The government thinks that they should control the children of the country over the wishes of the parents and it seems that the British government is able to enforce this point of view.

Posted by: CCO at July 24, 2017 03:42 PM (vuPc6)

402 Right, anyone who handles your health insurance has to be able to say "we won't cover this" but nobody has the right or justice to say "you cannot get your child any more medical care."

That's the part that bothers me the most. They wouldn't even let the parents take him home!

Posted by: Scalpel at July 24, 2017 06:35 PM (Atrbe)

403 This makes me so sad. I still can't wrap my head around the NHS and their "You'll take what we say and like it!!

I had thought it wonderfully appropriate to treat Charlie at George Washington University Hospital.

Glad he was on our side.

Prayers for his parents.

Posted by: Shopgirl at July 24, 2017 07:12 PM (eiUjG)

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