Why Would 12 Million Fresh Democrat Immigrant Voters Not Immediately Demand the Legalization of the Next 12 Million Democrat Immigrant Voters?

Great David Frum piece on the current raging class war between the corporate/managerial wing of the party and the working/middle class wing.

Ignore his prescriptions at the very end -- what he calls "True Reform" is a call for, basically, a more progressive policy of wealth redistribution and benefits for, allegedly, the Middle Class.

I'm surprised he didn't call for gun control and fighting climate change -- I get the strong feeling he wanted to, but I guess he realized those Boutique Urban Liberal policy prescriptions were out-of-place in an article about the party elite's contempt for the non-elite voters.

That 300 word coda to the side, the rest of the piece is a terrific indictment of the party elite.

He begins by discussing how critical one's politics has become to one's assertion of class identity -- and the deep division in the Republican Party between the "Wall Street" and "Main Street" classes.

He discusses the Great Recession and the Romney candidacy. His overall theme is that the party elite viewed the base's discontent as an endorsement of their own preferred politics -- a mistake, as there are in fact different class interests animating the Corporate Class (my term, not his), the Middle Class, the Working Class, the Professional Class, etc. But the elite seems to only chatter among themselves and with members who are of or aspire to be part of the Corporate or Professional Classes, and so they interpret every signal from the base as a confirmation that they were right all along.

After Romney's defeat -- literally hours and days after Romney's defeat -- they tripled down on all the same dogmas they'd previously doubled down on, and interpreted Romney's loss as nothing but the newest evidence that we must enact the Wall Street Journal Editorial Page into positive law as swiftly and as ruthlessly as possible.

When, in fact, the Tea Party rebellion was as much against the party's elite orthodoxies as against Barack Obama.

As a class, big Republican donors could not see any of this, or would not. So neither did the politicians who depend upon them. Against all evidence, both groups interpreted the Tea Party as a mass movement in favor of the agenda of the Wall Street Journal editorial page. One of the more dangerous pleasures of great wealth is that you never have to hear anyone tell you that you are completely wrong....
[W]ithin hours of Romney’s defeat, Republican donors, talkers, and officials converged on the maximally self-exculpating explanation....
Owners of capital assets, employers of low-skill laborers, and highly compensated professionals tend to benefit economically from the arrival of immigrants. They are better positioned to enjoy the attractive cultural and social results of migration (more-interesting food!) and to protect themselves against the burdensome impacts (surges in non-English-proficient pupils in public schools). A pro-immigration policy shift was one more assertion of class interest in a party program already brimful of them.

Nobody expressed the party elites' consensus view more assuredly than Charles Krauthammer. "Ignore the trimmers," he wrote in his first postelection column. "There's no need for radical change. The other party thinks it owns the demographic future--counter that in one stroke by fixing the Latino problem. Do not, however, abandon the party’s philosophical anchor...No reinvention when none is needed."
...
The Republican National Committee made it all official in a March 2013 postelection report signed by party eminences. The report generally avoided policy recommendations, with a notable exception: "We must embrace and champion comprehensive immigration reform." To advance the cause, Paul Singer, one of the most open-pocketed GOP donors, made a six-figure contribution to the National Immigration Forum that spring.

If all of this sounds like a prescription for a Jeb Bush candidacy for president... well, perhaps that was not an entirely unintended consequence.

One point I've been making on Twitter is that Rubio deserves to lose for believing the self-serving, ridiculous claims made by the Republican Consultant Class in the aftermath of the 2012 election. If you remember, soon after that loss, the party apparatus put forth a claimed "post-mortem" of the defeat, and talked about their plan... to do all the stupid shit they've done between 2013 and last week.

And most of us were screaming about it at the time, and we continue screaming about it.

And you who listened to us, inside the party? No one.

People like David Brat knocked off Eric Cantor and still the did not, and would not, listen.

There was simply no moving them off their ideological priors that they were going to sell the same shit sandwich they'd been trying to sell us since 2006. This time, they were going to give us the Comprehensive Immigration Shit Sandwich, and this time, they'd force it down our throats with a stick and a sponge, because this time, all the Corporate Class people were going to give Jeb Bush so much damn money he'd "shock and awe" all other alternatives out of the race.

That itself only brought in new recruits to the rebellion -- you could say that Jeb Bush's candidacy is Just What the Tea Party Wants (TM).

You could even say that the Tea Party is showing videos of Jeb Bush as a recruitment tool.

And still, no matter how much we reject Jeb Bush -- and we don't just reject him as Jeb Bush, although he is a weak candidate; we reject him chiefly as the avatar of the Corporate Class/Consultant Class' high-handedness and unearned dominance in the party -- they still don't, or rather won't, take the message.

I have come to believe that all this arguing about who could win the general is cynical and wishcasting. Because I don't believe the elite care, really, who can win the general election. Frankly, Mike Huckabee, a guy I don't like and neither does the Corporate Class, could be well-positioned to win a general, but I don't hear the Corporate Class agitating for him.

All this crap about Jeb Bush and Marco Rubio being great general election candidates is cynical, dishonest nonsense designed for one goal: To "Win" the argument on immigration without having to have the argument at all.

There are people in are party who favor Open Borders. They simply do. But they don't argue in favor of it; rather they argue on collateral matters, such as Marco Rubio's alleged strength in a general election, so that they'll win on the immigration issue on unrelated issues (the issue of the supposed electability of Marco Rubio and unelectability of all persons not named Marco Rubio).

Thus, they win the argument without ever having to have made the argument in the first place.

If I saw a Republican making the open borders argument straightly and forthrightly I think I'd plotz.

Instead it's always this passive-aggressive, around-the-edges nonsense about "electabiity." But as David Frum notes, most Hispanics don't vote Democrat because of Democrats' stance on illegal immigration (and note that Hispanics who vote aren't here illegally -- at least the ones legally entitled to vote).

Most Hispanics vote Democrat because they are Democrats -- they favor more social spending and a bigger government. They also, increasingly, favor the Democrat position on social issues.

The crackpot notion of the Republican Consultant Class was that Hispanics were all ultra-Catholic (that's itself a broad generalization which would be called "racist" by sensitive or cynical souls) and that their natural social conservatism would draw them into the Republican camp, and make them more favorable to economic conservatism.

Instead, the exact opposite has happened, which was always predictable: Hispanics' general support of economic progressivism has drawn them into the Democrat camp, and made them more favorable to social progressivism, on top of their already-baked-in-the-cake support for economic progressivism.

So, they already were Democrats on economics and the role of government, and now they're becoming Democrats on gay marriage and other social issues too.

But if we offer up a lukewarm version of the Democrats' Open Borders policy, they'll suddenly start voting Republican?

Why? Why would they do that?

As many people have noted, you can't beat the Democrat Party when it comes to pandering with government money or government favors: Not only are they willing to bribe voters, they are ideologically committed to the idea that bribing their voters is the entire raison d'etre of the Democrat/Socialist cause.

They're eager to get into a bribery match with the GOP.

Why would the GOP also be eager for this contest?

My fear is this: It is already perilous to cross the Hispanic vote, as the Consultant Class (correctly) tells us.

Now, if we increase that bloc by 12 million in a go, you tell me how it becomes, somehow, easier to resist further demands for an open border policy, and further demands we stop all border enforcement.

What I fear, and many others fear I think, is that this 12 million will certainly not be the last: In fact, they're the tipping point to vote in the next 12 million, and then they'll combine together, 24 million demanding the inflow of 24 million more, and on, and on, and on.

Why wouldn't that happen? If the consultant class is right, and the open borders is a crucial issue to Hispanics, why would they stop wanting open borders after 12 million, or 24 million, or any other arbitrarily large number of millions of new immigrant citizens?

If a man believes that bread is crucial to his diet, why would he stop at just 12 loaves?

And still the Corporate Class natters on, singing the same old song: Just give people who favor the Democrat Socialist-Welfare state the right to vote, and somehow, this will result in them voting a party which supposedly stands against the Democrat Socialist-Welfare state, out of gratitude or feeling "accepted" or whatnot.

That's not going to happen. Giving 12 million illegal immigrants -- among the poorest of workers, already primed to be natural Democrats based on cultural assumptions and expectations of government's purpose -- will make 11 million new Democrat voters and 1 million persuadably contrarian independent voters, who we could bring over to our side if we "moderate" our already moderate economic prescriptions.

That's the consultant and corporate classes' plan for success.

As I said, this has nothing to do with winning. This only has to do with their class-based more that anything having remotely to do with race must be "racist," even if one's reasons for a position are offered on very straightforward non-racial grounds.

It's about them feeling uncomfortable at dinner parties -- and that's all it is.

That's all it is. That's all it's ever been. In fact, that's 90% of politics -- politics, especially now, is more about a declaration of one's social and cultural mores than about actual policy.

And I get that, and I understand human vanity and I understand the human need to comport with the herd. And I don't really think that makes people "sheep;" in practical terms, one probably is more impacted (on a gut level) by the reactions of people you actually know to your politics than to the actual economic and legal effects of politics.

But that still doesn't make the Go Along To Get Along Swelly At Cocktail Parties Republicans right.

Thanks to Comrade Arthur/Arthur K., who tweeted me a mess of good quotes from the piece.

Posted by: Ace at 02:16 PM

Comments

(Jump to bottom of comments)

1 I'm gonna watch some DVD's.

Posted by: HH at December 22, 2015 02:19 PM (DrCtv)

2 One hell of a movie review.

Go

Posted by: Misanthropic Humanitarian, Bamboozled by love at December 22, 2015 02:19 PM (voOPb)

3 And oddly enough, Have Gun-Will Travel.

Posted by: HH at December 22, 2015 02:20 PM (DrCtv)

4 i can haz burning times nao?

Posted by: Arthur Brown at December 22, 2015 02:21 PM (zgHLA)

5
Vodka n Tots @Vodkantots

I really don't get Obama.

Three menstruating females in his household and he doesn't know how to handle terrorists?

Posted by: Bruce With a Wang! at December 22, 2015 02:22 PM (iQIUe)

6 "This time, they were going to give us the Comprehensive Immigration Shit Sandwich, and this time, they'd force it down our throats with a stick and a sponge, because this time,
all the Corporate Class people were going to give Jeb Bush so much damn
money he'd "shock and awe" all other alternatives out of the race."

Bitch, bitch, bitch. We gave you the damn sponge, now didn't we?

Posted by: Reince Priebus, Prince of Fools at December 22, 2015 02:23 PM (LAe3v)

7 Dear Rince,

Dole, McCain, Romney: not that.

Get the gub'mint off our backs: that.

Sincerely

Posted by: DM at December 22, 2015 02:23 PM (j/tOh)

8 "Republicans are now Democrats-lite" is a more succinct essay.

Posted by: dfbaskwill at December 22, 2015 02:25 PM (zllbf)

9 WE ARE YOUR BETTERS!!!

Posted by: Jeb at December 22, 2015 02:25 PM (LYCUN)

10 I like Krauthammer a lot, but he really screwed the pooch on this. He was convinced that Jeb had it in the bag, that Trump would implode, and that amnesty was our only option. I think (hope) Trump eventually will sink, but in the meantime, he's been extremely useful in raising issues that were formerly off limits.

The new Q poll puts Cruz just 4 points short of Trump nationally, so this could all work out very well.

Posted by: pep at December 22, 2015 02:27 PM (LAe3v)

11 Well written, ace.

Part of me would like an undercover video made of these dinner parties to be released.

Posted by: BumperStickerist at December 22, 2015 02:27 PM (jmIQu)

12 So we keep fighting. We fight for Ted Cruz (or Donald Trump if that is who you believe and want). We fight for a primary of Paul Ryan (which may have no success). We fight to find more Mike Lee's to send to the senate. The old guard cannot live forever. They will need to be replaced. Let's hope they are replaced by more Cruz', Lee's , and Paul's who at least want to shake things up. If an establishment pol gets out of line, we vote them out. Its a never ending battle.

Posted by: SH at December 22, 2015 02:27 PM (gmeXX)

13 Will you obey federal law no matter what?

Will you allow that the Republicans cannot absolve you of personally complying with the radical Democrat agenda at home, at school, at work, unless and until they get 60 million votes in a Presidential election AND a majority of the House AND a majority of the Senate, and nothing less than that?

Will you, collectively, still make it a matter of getting 60 million at a time when 20 million people are openly rebelling against federal law, and consensus at the federal and state level is, that's too many to prosecute?

Posted by: Chris Balsz at December 22, 2015 02:28 PM (4zXgv)

14 Damn! Look at all them words! What does it mean?

Posted by: Weasel at December 22, 2015 02:28 PM (IPirI)

15 At this point, I think it's fair to say that Trump has made a Jeb Bush electoral recovery a schlong-shot.

Posted by: General Zod at December 22, 2015 02:28 PM (Bdeb0)

16 The GOP is a stuttering clusterfuck of a miserable failure.

Posted by: eleven at December 22, 2015 02:28 PM (qUNWi)

17 I disagree it's go along to get along...it's about invading the territory of largess to co-opt those voters and ensure they have power and public income kickbacks at similar levels to the democrats...

Posted by: Judas Washington at December 22, 2015 02:28 PM (eOpVe)

18 I really don't get Obama.

Three menstruating females in his household and he doesn't know how to handle terrorists?

3 + a mother-in-law.

Posted by: rickb223 at December 22, 2015 02:28 PM (LO5Qy)

19 Not an opposition party.

A substitution party.

Stop being afraid.

Posted by: eman at December 22, 2015 02:29 PM (mR7Es)

20 >>>And most of us were screaming about it at the time, and we continue screaming about it.

And you who listened to us, inside the party? No one.

People like David Brat knocked off Eric Cantor and still the did not, and would not, listen.
-----------------------------
Cantor goes down,
Boehner steps down
McCarthy sulks away
Ryan makes demands

Not only do they not listen they don't see either.

Posted by: Misanthropic Humanitarian, Bamboozled by love at December 22, 2015 02:29 PM (voOPb)

21
So..... youd vote for Christine ODonnel today???

***runs***

Posted by: fixerupper at December 22, 2015 02:29 PM (8XRCm)

22 Ace I think your analysis is far more accurate than Dfrum's.

Posted by: maddogg, now certified infrequently vile at December 22, 2015 02:29 PM (xWW96)

23 So..... youd vote for Christine ODonnel today???

Is she a good witch....or a bad witch?

Posted by: eleven at December 22, 2015 02:30 PM (qUNWi)

24 I'm sick of this 12 or 11 million number or whatever it is.

If the scum are admitting to 12 million, the real number is more like 50 million. Let's just call it what it is.

Posted by: Blano at December 22, 2015 02:30 PM (C3E0x)

25 and to protect themselves against the burdensome impacts (surges in non-English-proficient pupils in public schools).

The first candidate to exploit this point will never lose an election.

The immigration discussion amongst the talkers and columnists on the right is as dishonest as the one on the Left.

No one is willing to discuss the costs and the negligible benefits of our current open borders.

Oh, and fuck David Frum.

Posted by: weft cut-loop at December 22, 2015 02:30 PM (9YDUz)

26 ?I thought the people that said they were all really just one big party and that Dems and Repubs are the same were cranks.

To those people, I apologize. The leaders in both parties are the same, and Ace's aptly named Failure Theatre is a fact of life.

I see Franklin Graham just quit the Republican Party. We are not alone.

Posted by: rd at December 22, 2015 02:30 PM (Sffn6)

27 Cantor goes down,
Boehner steps down
McCarthy sulks away
Ryan makes demands

Not only do they not listen they don't see either.

---------

Then go after Ryan too.

Posted by: SH at December 22, 2015 02:30 PM (gmeXX)

28 There is none more blind than he who will not see.

Posted by: maddogg, now certified infrequently vile at December 22, 2015 02:31 PM (xWW96)

29 Ooooh.....Goodwich would be a great name for a fast food joint.

Posted by: eleven at December 22, 2015 02:31 PM (qUNWi)

30 So..... youd vote for Christine ODonnel today???

Is she a good witch....or a bad witch?

Do you want to bang her, or drop a house on her?

Posted by: rickb223 at December 22, 2015 02:31 PM (LO5Qy)

31 Today Obamacare. Tomorrow Obamafood. The middle class will be saving money right and left!

Posted by: The Great White Snark at December 22, 2015 02:31 PM (MYRZx)

32 I think (hope) Trump eventually will sink

I understand the sentiment, but I'm pretty much all in for Trump at this point because I think if we let the gope off the hook with anyone else, they'll go straight back to rationalizing.

I think (and obviously all of you will vote based on what *you* think) we have to do this terribly awful thing to them just to show we can before we can renegotiate our relationship, if any, with them.

Posted by: Garak at December 22, 2015 02:31 PM (ZbV+0)

33 Ooooh.....Goodwich would be a great name for a fast food joint.

60% less e. coli than our competitors!

Posted by: rickb223 at December 22, 2015 02:32 PM (LO5Qy)

34 Interesting link at HA today as well. The main point is the divide between Trump voters (non-college) and Cruz/other voters (college). Make of it what you will.

Posted by: pep at December 22, 2015 02:32 PM (LAe3v)

35 Cantor goes down,
Boehner steps down
McCarthy sulks away
Ryan makes demands

Not only do they not listen they don't see either.

----

Its like theyre TRYING to get Trump elected.

Maybe thats their seven dimension chess strategy.

Posted by: fixerupper at December 22, 2015 02:32 PM (8XRCm)

36 Simpler still, there was a decision made by the elites in 65 to diminish the white population of the US, their plan is very nearly compete.

Whites are begining to figure this out and are rebelling against this plan as they were never informed that this was in fact the plan.

Nobody would knowingly allow themselves to be Neanderthaled.

Dark days lie ahead.

War is coming.

Posted by: Kreplach at December 22, 2015 02:32 PM (nl+lr)

37 I do hate the electibility argument. The problem is it isn't an argument at all.

Posted by: SH at December 22, 2015 02:32 PM (gmeXX)

38 If Trump were to swear on his Mother's grave that if elected he would string the GOPe up on lamp posts he would win in a landslide.

Posted by: maddogg, now certified infrequently vile at December 22, 2015 02:33 PM (xWW96)

39 If none of the Establishment-sponsored or moderatecandidates win the Republican nomination, watch as most if not all of the big money GOP donors currently backing Bush or Rubio throw their support to Hillary Clinton and the Democrats.

Whether or not such a move would precipitate a third-party split is anyone's guess. I'm guessing yes. The chasm between the Establishment and the base has grown too wide.

Posted by: troyriser at December 22, 2015 02:33 PM (UWlp+)

40

The GOPe are incompetent, facile, lifetime wannabes....who get slightly weasy if the cost to their version of statism rests on an excessive amount government largess to enslave their unsuspecting working class/LIV prey.

In other words, theGOPe are skin-flint enslavers.

The Dems?---now Those guys know the fair market price for a man's soul(vote)...and they are obsessed with paying that price.
Hate the GOPe but fear the Dems .

Posted by: Lower Class person whose opinions need to be guided at December 22, 2015 02:33 PM (3ZttN)

41 Anyone who knows Mexicans, who has been down in Mexico a few times, knows they are the most irreligious people in the Americas, outside of Central America. The churches are empty, the people openly socialistic and given to immoral conduct. At one time Mexico even outlawed the Catholic Church.
It is true that they do not believe in abortion, but this is not unique in socialist countries or cultures. The entire EU has strong limitations also, particularly after week 20.
Where the delusion that they were conservative started is beyond me.,

Posted by: Pat at December 22, 2015 02:33 PM (4MSOz)

42 Waitaminute. David FRUM is lecturing the GOPe?

David Frum IS the "e" in GOPe.

Posted by: WhatWhatWhat? at December 22, 2015 02:33 PM (r9tFS)

43 >>>The old guard cannot live forever. They will need to be replaced
--------------
Meet the new boss same as the old boss.

Sen. Ron Johnson-WI (R) is a perfect example. Never, ever, been in politics. He was pissed off. He ran against Russ Feingold 18 year incumbent in 2010 and beat him. Beat him like a red headed step child.

He was the senator who illicit Hillary in the famous what difference does it make now incident.

Look at his voting record now. He's indistinguishable from Mitch McConnell

Posted by: Misanthropic Humanitarian, Bamboozled by love at December 22, 2015 02:33 PM (voOPb)

44 Oops. Off, curiously ironic, backstabbing sock.

Posted by: Methos at December 22, 2015 02:34 PM (ZbV+0)

45 I understand the sentiment, but I'm pretty much all in for Trump at this
point because I think if we let the gope off the hook with anyone else,
they'll go straight back to rationalizing.

The GOPe looks down their noses at Trump. They hate Cruz with the heat of a thousand suns, because he's one of them, yet still calls them on their BS because it's to his advantage to do so. I can live with that.

Posted by: pep at December 22, 2015 02:34 PM (LAe3v)

46 Believe it or not, there was a time when the Prog/Com/Dims were vehemently opposed to illegal immigration. Dig back in the archives about 25 years ago to listen to their rhetoric.

They were scared shitless that all these new people would vote Repumpkin.

Posted by: BackwardsBoy at December 22, 2015 02:34 PM (LUgeY)

47 The Donk/GOPe motto: The middle class, schlong 'em and tax 'em.

Posted by: The Great White Snark at December 22, 2015 02:34 PM (MYRZx)

48 I think half the reason the GOPe wants amnesty is cheap labor for the donor class.

Posted by: Tilikum Moderately Nefarious Killer Whale at December 22, 2015 02:35 PM (hVdx9)

49 If none of the Establishment-sponsored or moderatecandidates win the Republican nomination,

watch as most if not all of the big money GOP donors currently backing Bush or Rubio throw their support to Hillary Clinton and the Democrats.

Then those GOP donors weren't really conservative. So I have zero qualms about burning down the fake GOPe party.

Posted by: rickb223 at December 22, 2015 02:35 PM (LO5Qy)

50 Meet the new boss same as the old boss.

----------

True for some, not true for all. Cruz, Lee, Paul are all different. Johnson was a dissappointment for sure. Maybe it is a generational thing.

Posted by: SH at December 22, 2015 02:35 PM (gmeXX)

51 Isn't 11-million the figure for the recent "unaccompanied children" given legal status by the Obama administration?

Posted by: andycanuck at December 22, 2015 02:35 PM (DLIIY)

52 You know how Democrats always walk around feeling holier than though by their over the top "tolerance" of every tiny minority group in the country?

I always find it... odd how they (and the GOPe) can pretend it's totally normal for Bruce Jenner to lop off his shlong (SWIDT?), and that we need to understand where he's coming from and what his feelings are...

And yet, we need to demonize the "rural white blue collar" people (many of whom aren't blue color, or white, or rural) who make up say 30-40% of the country constantly. And cast all kinds of aspersions, say all kinds of bigoted, prejudicial, and stereotypical things... and ignore everything they say.

It's the same attitude the left and GOPe has towards ISIS -- "no, no, ISIS isn't about Islam. They're just angry at Bush and a lack of jobs." Why can't we accept them at their word for who they are and what their influences are?

If "middle America" is saying "This is what pisses me off, and heres why" who the fuck does Krauthammer and all of these "elites" think they are saying "no, no, they're just upset because it's a changing world and they don't know why they act the way they do... Hmm..." like some kind of parody of a pipe smoking college lounge sociologist talking about people he's never met, situations he doesn't care to learn about, and feelings he thinks aren't valid.

Posted by: Harry Paratestes at December 22, 2015 02:36 PM (AkOaV)

53 goddamn it blue color = blue collar.

I've done that at least twice in two days

Posted by: Harry Paratestes at December 22, 2015 02:37 PM (AkOaV)

54 If Trump were to swear on his Mother's grave that if elected he would string the GOPe up on lamp posts he would win in a landslide.

Posted by: maddogg, now certified infrequently vile

I would settle for putting them in stocks so that we could pelt them with eggs and rotten fruit.

Posted by: Cheri at December 22, 2015 02:37 PM (oiNtH)

55 25 years ago is 1990.

I think you need to go back further than that to find pro border enforcement Democrats.

Posted by: fixerupper at December 22, 2015 02:37 PM (8XRCm)

56 Interesting link at HA today as well. The main point is the divide between Trump voters (non-college) and Cruz/other voters (college). Make of it what you will.

Posted by: pep at December 22, 2015 02:32 PM (LAe3v)

Ah yes, the same kind of analogy Democrats like to try and make. What a coincidence.

Posted by: Blano at December 22, 2015 02:37 PM (C3E0x)

57 "25 and to protect themselves against the burdensome impacts (surges in non-English-proficient pupils in public schools).
The first candidate to exploit this point will never lose an election.
The immigration discussion amongst the talkers and columnists on the right is as dishonest as the one on the Left.
No one is willing to discuss the costs and the negligible benefits of our current open borders.
Oh, and fuck David Frum."

Agreed on all points, including the last. My local school system has now advised to get vaccinations for whooping cough. However, everyone is too chicken-shit to say why it has been re-introduced after such a long time.

Posted by: Benji Carver at December 22, 2015 02:38 PM (OD2ni)

58 It's butter that lubricates the great divide.

Posted by: Fritz at December 22, 2015 02:38 PM (UzPAd)

59 GOPe to Tea Partiers -- Sit down and shut up, the adults are in charge now.

TP to GOPe -- Ur momma.

Posted by: GnuBreed at December 22, 2015 02:38 PM (gyKtp)

60 Al Gore and Hillary Clinton are "Beer Track" Democrats?

Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!

Posted by: Gaff at December 22, 2015 02:38 PM (jPS2y)

61 goddamn it blue color = blue collar.

I've done that at least twice in two days

Posted by: Harry Paratestes at December 22, 2015 02:37 PM (AkOaV)

#SmurfLivesMatterToo

Posted by: Blano at December 22, 2015 02:38 PM (C3E0x)

62 independent freeholders are the basis of a republic

ignore the 5% loony in the following video and wrap your head around the political implications:

http://bit.ly/1uZoU15

these may be Jeffersonian democrats, the backbone of the early American republic

politics is downstream from culture

what kind of culture?

Posted by: Feh at December 22, 2015 02:38 PM (YQYIg)

63 Simpler still, there was a decision made by the elites in 65 to diminish
the white population of the US, their plan is very nearly compete.

Whites are begining to figure this out and are rebelling against
this plan as they were never informed that this was in fact the plan.

I would give a lot to hear the nom confront Hillary, and ask her why she and her fellow Dems always sound so delighted that America as it has existed is dying away, and that whites will no longer be a majority.

Hillary, why do you hate white people so much?

Posted by: pep at December 22, 2015 02:38 PM (LAe3v)

64 Frum. Tell that hoser to take off, eh.

Posted by: Bertram Cabot Jr. at December 22, 2015 02:38 PM (FkBIv)

65 Good analysis, Ace. By any chance do you
have the political gene in your DNA? As in
father, mother, grandparent involved in
politics? Hard to believe that someone wakes
up one morning and suddenly notices politics.

Posted by: free range jihadist at December 22, 2015 02:39 PM (7v/r5)

66 I think you need to go back further than that to find pro border enforcement Democrats.

You're probably right. I do remember it though, so it had to have been some time last century or somewhere thereabouts.

Everything feels to me like it happened last summer. If I can remember it at all, that is.

Posted by: BackwardsBoy at December 22, 2015 02:39 PM (LUgeY)

67 if krauthammer has turned snob, he needs to get out more

Posted by: Feh at December 22, 2015 02:40 PM (YQYIg)

68 GOPe to Tea Partiers -- Sit down and shut up, the adults are in charge now.

TP to GOPe -- Ur momma.

*Fistbump*

Posted by: rickb223 at December 22, 2015 02:40 PM (LO5Qy)

69 Ah yes, the same kind of analogy Democrats like to try and make. What a coincidence.

Posted by: Blano

What analogy? The facts are the facts, whether they're palatable or not.

Posted by: pep at December 22, 2015 02:40 PM (LAe3v)

70 True for some, not true for all. Cruz, Lee, Paul are all different. Johnson was a dissappointment for sure. Maybe it is a generational thing.
Posted by: SH at December 22, 2015 02:35 PM (gmeXX

One can hope.
I do not have that hope.

Even those 3 you have mentioned have let America down. Off the top of my head the abdication of their role in the Iranian nuclear deal.

Going to one's capitol, state or federal subjects one to going native. And once you're native, there is no cure.

Posted by: Misanthropic Humanitarian, Bamboozled by love at December 22, 2015 02:40 PM (voOPb)

71 . In fact, that's 90% of politics -- politics, especially now, is more about a declaration of one's social and cultural mores than about actual policy.

Which makes me shriek in frustration.

I am not my politics. My politics are not me. Now, my politics are influenced, deeply, by my view of the nature of the relationship between man and God, man and Nature and man and fellow man. My politics are also influenced more deeply than I care to admit by matters of personality. For example, Mommy says that even as a baby I wanted to be left alone. I will admit that much of the basis of my political theory stems from just that desire, to be left alone.

This conflation of politics with morality and self-identity and the like is viciously poisonous.

For all the GOP apologists, a word of advice before I resume my normal eyerolling at your feeble attempts at persuasion.

If any of you, any single one of you, from commenters here to professional commentators had showed a single solitary moment of humility after Romney was beaten like a rented red headed step-mule, then I would be more inclined to listen.

But no. No. I haven't seen a syllable typed or even the most passing attempts at self-reflection and even the most mild of considerations that, mayhap, your preferred candidate and manner of campaigning, to say nothing of policies, were incorrect. No. Instead it was blaming everyone and everything and the myth of the 4 million missing voters. Anything but what you espoused. Anything but ORCA. Anything at all.

Instead of, look, guys, we know we screwed up last time but this is why you should listen to us now, it's the same viciously arrogant we are the only grown ups in the room condescension. And it is condescension. Trust me, if anyone can tell when someone is being condescending, it is I.

It's all so wearisome. Oh oh oh give us the House and we swear we will use the power of the purse to stop Obama, see, we'll make a Pledge To America.

Oh. Well see we can't really do anything when we only have 1/2 of 1/3. We have to have the Senate too.

Oh. Well see we can't really do anything without the Presidency, I mean Obama will just veto everything and filibuster you guys.

It's always the same excuses. It's always the same rationales. It's always blaming the horrible House Freedom Caucus for the omnibus because hey they wouldn't vote for it anyway so Ryan et al had to make deals with the Dems.

It's all the same pathetic old tired lines being read by those who have a wholly undeserved view of their ability to be ever so much more reasonable than others.

It's funny, isn't it, that those of us who are amongst the great unwashed make predictions which come true while those who are the adults predict confidently wins which never come to pass.

But I'm the child who wants Hillary to win because I owe the GOP my vote. Because nothing says belief in the individual like viewing my vote as belonging to some party by default.

Bah. A pox upon the GOP and the GOP apologists.

Posted by: alexthechick - love and despair bitches at December 22, 2015 02:41 PM (mf5HN)

72 if krauthammer has turned snob, he needs to get out more
Posted by: Feh at December 22, 2015 02:40 PM (YQYIg)

------

#wheelchairrampsmatter

Posted by: fixerupper at December 22, 2015 02:41 PM (8XRCm)

73 The strain is growing.

Like a geologic fault.

One of these days the political earthquake will happen.

Posted by: eman at December 22, 2015 02:41 PM (mR7Es)

74 Cesar Chavez was very much against illegal immigration. He called them 'wet-backs' and had an armed posse that patrolled the border.

This little fact seems to be forgotten when Chavez is celebrated once a year.

Posted by: Cheri at December 22, 2015 02:41 PM (oiNtH)

75 Lower-class white places aren't wheelchair accessible, Feh.

Posted by: andycanuck at December 22, 2015 02:41 PM (DLIIY)

76 Do you want to bang her, or drop a house on her?

Posted by: rickb223 at December 22, 2015 02:31 PM (LO5Qy)

Are both possible? (in that order)

Posted by: Blano at December 22, 2015 02:42 PM (C3E0x)

77 Hillary appeals to the working class?

Maybe the ABBs and Fanucs.

Posted by: beep boop at December 22, 2015 02:42 PM (2WoCi)

78 I'm a lifelong Republican, but if my party is hijacked by anti-immigrant extremists I will consider voting for Ms. Clinton.

Perhaps we must allow the extremists to suffer a crushing defeat in 2016 and start forming a new, more inclusive Republican party.

Posted by: Susan Olivia Cuthbertson-Klein at December 22, 2015 02:42 PM (Ui7Rt)

79
if krauthammer has turned snob, he needs to get out more

Posted by: Feh at December 22, 2015 02:40 PM (YQYIg)

Somehow, I can't see Dr K visiting a halal restaurant, but doing so might change his views!

Posted by: Hrothgar at December 22, 2015 02:42 PM (ftVQq)

80 whee atc speaks for me

Posted by: Feh at December 22, 2015 02:43 PM (YQYIg)

81 Meet the new boss same as the old boss.

Sen. Ron Johnson-WI (R) is a perfect example. Never, ever, been in politics. He was pissed off. He ran against Russ Feingold 18 year incumbent in 2010 and beat him. Beat him like a red headed step child.

He was the senator who illicit Hillary in the famous what difference does it make now incident.

Look at his voting record now. He's indistinguishable from Mitch McConnell

Posted by: Misanthropic Humanitarian, Bamboozled by love at December 22, 2015 02:33 PM (voOPb)

Boehner was a 1994 Gingrich Congressional landslide freshman. The machine seduces them.

Posted by: rd at December 22, 2015 02:43 PM (Sffn6)

82 >>What analogy? The facts are the facts, whether they're palatable or not.

To me, that is Trump's most redeeming quality. He seems to have the Reagan touch of bringing in a lot of disaffected blue collar workers, people who are getting left behind in the Age of Obama.

I think pundits focus too much on identity politics and not nearly enough on pocketbook politics.

Posted by: JackStraw at December 22, 2015 02:43 PM (/tuJf)

83 It's like when Obama told a bunch of people in San Fran (IIRC), (paraphrasing) "those people in rural Pennsylvania saw factories close and are unemployed so they cling to their religion and guns and antipathy towards people who don't look like them."

How the fuck does Obama know what people in rural PA think or why they do whatever it is he thinks they do? He's never been to PA when he wasnt campaigning. He doesn't KNOW anyone from rural PA. He doesn't even really care about what their concerns or feelings are.

And same is true of his donors.

It's... beyond conceited to think you know better about the feelings, thoughts, motivations, etc then the people you're talking about. Especially when you have made zero effort to find out for yourself.

Posted by: Harry Paratestes at December 22, 2015 02:43 PM (AkOaV)

84 What analogy? The facts are the facts, whether they're palatable or not.

Posted by: pep at December 22, 2015 02:40 PM (LAe3v)

It's the implication behind the facts, i.e. that the non-college types are a bunch of dumbfucks.

Posted by: Blano at December 22, 2015 02:43 PM (C3E0x)

85
But I'm the child who wants Hillary to win because I owe the GOP my vote. Because nothing says belief in the individual like viewing my vote as belonging to some party by default.

Bah. A pox upon the GOP and the GOP apologists.
Posted by: alexthechick - love and despair bitches at December 22, 2015 02:41 PM (mf5HN)

^^^THIS^^^

Posted by: Misanthropic Humanitarian, Bamboozled by love at December 22, 2015 02:44 PM (voOPb)

86 hillary is every working man's worst nightmare

hell, daymare

"hillary" is why men drink themselves to death

Posted by: Feh at December 22, 2015 02:44 PM (YQYIg)

87 Whoed of thunk!

Posted by: Killerdog at December 22, 2015 02:44 PM (FCj3F)

88 That's all it is. That's all it's ever been. In fact, that's 90% of politics -- politics, especially now, is more about a declaration of one's social and cultural mores than about actual policy.

Two words: Sarah Palin

Regardless of how you feel about her, it was the GOPs reaction to her that was the height of reflexive GOPe snobbery. The Democrat/MSM/entertainment pile-on in 2008 was disgusting, just over the top. And what does the GOP do for a natural politician who got a lot of people who hated McCain to reconsider voting for him? The joined in on the hate-fest.

To me, that was when it really hit me how much they hate their own base, how much they hate non-DC-NYC elites. They prefer Democrats over their own voters.

Posted by: Lizzy at December 22, 2015 02:45 PM (NOIQH)

89 Posted by: alexthechick - love and despair bitches at December 22, 2015 02:41 PM (mf5HN)

I love pure poetry in the afternoon!

Posted by: Hrothgar at December 22, 2015 02:45 PM (ftVQq)

90 Posted by: alexthechick - love and despair bitches at December 22, 2015 02:41 PM (mf5HN)

I love pure poetry in the afternoon!

Posted by: Hrothgar at December 22, 2015 02:45 PM (ftVQq)

Yeah, that was awesome.

Posted by: Blano at December 22, 2015 02:46 PM (C3E0x)

91 The pundit class is as clueless as the political one.

Posted by: Chipotle Counter Punk at December 22, 2015 02:46 PM (oVJmc)

92 It's like when Obama told a bunch of people in San Fran (IIRC), (paraphrasing) "those people in rural Pennsylvania saw factories close and are unemployed so they cling to their religion and guns and antipathy towards people who don't look like them."

How the fuck does Obama know what people in rural PA think or why they do whatever it is he thinks they do?

Because he truly identified muzzies with that statement.

Posted by: rickb223 at December 22, 2015 02:46 PM (LO5Qy)

93 "And what does the GOP do for a natural politician who got a lot of people who hated McCain to reconsider voting for him? The joined in on the hate-fest."

Frum was leading the charge.

Posted by: Benji Carver at December 22, 2015 02:47 PM (OD2ni)

94 AtC uses her tongue like a $500/hour political consultant!

Ace too.

Posted by: andycanuck at December 22, 2015 02:47 PM (DLIIY)

95 and so they interpret every signal from the base as a confirmation that they were right all along.

Even when the base is screaming, "Fuck you, you treasonous, lowlife sacks of shit! You are collaborating Vichy scum who should all DIAF!"?

I'm not sure how anyone could misinterpret that. Or primarying and kicking out the #2 guy in the VIchy GOP star list.

I have to respectfully disagree with this claim. I think the Vichy GOP are taking the Old Lady McShame attitude - "You'll hold your nose and vote for us, dirtballs, because you have no other choice, so just STFU and sit down, peons."

Posted by: ThePrimordialOrderedPair at December 22, 2015 02:47 PM (zc3Db)

96 "My local school system has now advised to get vaccinations for whooping
cough. However, everyone is too chicken-shit to say why it has been
re-introduced after such a long time."

Wait till the schools get a load of the drug-resistant tuberculosis and Chagas disease that the "New Americans" are bringing in with them.

Posted by: torquewrench at December 22, 2015 02:47 PM (noWW6)

97 i've been on the edges of circles of clucking intellectuals who have plenty of theories and egos to defend but can't identify the goddamned tree in their backyard

Posted by: Feh at December 22, 2015 02:47 PM (YQYIg)

98 It's the implication behind the facts, i.e. that the non-college types are a bunch of dumbfucks.

Posted by: Blano

I can't tell if you're referring to my comment or the article, but in neither case was there any imputation of lack of intelligence. I said it was interesting.

Read JackStraw at 82. I agree wholeheartedly with him.

Posted by: pep at December 22, 2015 02:47 PM (LAe3v)

99 >>>David Frum IS the "e" in GOPe.

not on this issue. he's been one of the leading voices against amnesty.

I know you wouldn't expect that, but it's true.

Posted by: ace at December 22, 2015 02:47 PM (dciA+)

100 BURN
SCATTER
SALT

Posted by: @votermom at December 22, 2015 02:47 PM (cbfNE)

101 55 25 years ago is 1990.

I think you need to go back further than that to find pro border enforcement Democrats.
Posted by: fixerupper at December 22, 2015 02:37 PM (8XRCm)

Unions were vehemently opposed to any immigration as recently as 1986, where they said Reagan wanted to bring in more immigrants and legalize those that were here because he wanted to help his big business buddies and screw the working man.

Posted by: Harry Paratestes at December 22, 2015 02:47 PM (AkOaV)

102 To me, that was when it really hit me how much they hate their own base, how much they hate non-DC-NYC elites. They prefer Democrats over their own voters.

They can have them. That's why I'm all in for Trump.
The FU GOPe burn it down candidate.

Posted by: rickb223 at December 22, 2015 02:48 PM (LO5Qy)

103 Ace, that is an excellent article, thanks for posting it and for your analysis.

Posted by: chemjeff at December 22, 2015 02:48 PM (uZNvH)

104 To me, that was when it really hit me how much they
hate their own base, how much they hate non-DC-NYC elites. They prefer
Democrats over their own voters.

Posted by: Lizzy at December 22, 2015 02:45 PM (NOIQH)

I think it is more that they prefer their own kind of Democrat elites over their own voters!

Posted by: Hrothgar at December 22, 2015 02:48 PM (ftVQq)

105 I don't agree that the GOP doesn't 'get it.'

They 'get it.' They don't 'want it.' They're on the other side.

Posted by: Pappy O'Daniel at December 22, 2015 02:48 PM (oVJmc)

106 94 AtC uses her tongue like a $500/hour political consultant!

Ace too.
Posted by: andycanuck at December 22, 2015 02:47 PM (DLIIY)

no personal attacks against other commenters!

And besides, I hear Huma is better with her tongue then any of those "consultants".

:-D

Posted by: Harry Paratestes at December 22, 2015 02:49 PM (AkOaV)

107 Bah. A pox upon the GOP and the GOP apologists.
Posted by: alexthechick - love and despair bitches at December 22, 2015 02:41 PM (mf5HN)

*lights a cigarette*

Yes, it was good for me too.

Posted by: Bandersnatch, Opus/Bill the Cat 2016 at December 22, 2015 02:49 PM (1xUj/)

108 It was a compliment, Harry!

Posted by: andycanuck at December 22, 2015 02:49 PM (DLIIY)

109 "It's the implication behind the facts, i.e. that the non-college types are a bunch of dumbfucks. "

I question the "facts" since at this point the only way to know about "supporters" is very nebulous sampling of the general population.

Posted by: Chris Balsz at December 22, 2015 02:49 PM (4zXgv)

110
Ok.... identity politics discussion.

Taking "racism" totally out of the discussion.... but.....

Would one be better off getting 25% of the Hispanic vote or increasing the total "white" vote by 5%.

And for those of you not proficient in 5th grade math..... its not even close.

Posted by: fixerupper at December 22, 2015 02:50 PM (8XRCm)

111 test

Posted by: Bruce With a Wang! at December 22, 2015 02:50 PM (iQIUe)

112 And here I thought Hillary appealed to the vodka class of industrial barflys.

Posted by: Fritz at December 22, 2015 02:50 PM (UzPAd)

113 I don't care what Trump says, there is no way in hell I schlonged Hillary.

Posted by: slapdick willie at December 22, 2015 02:50 PM (kOiXL)

114 I think the Vichy GOP are taking the Old Lady McShame attitude - "You'll hold your nose and vote for us, dirtballs, because you have no other choice, so just STFU and sit down, peons."

One word: Donald Trump

Posted by: rickb223 at December 22, 2015 02:50 PM (LO5Qy)

115 Same song if you talk foreign policy. I'm not sure Marco Rubio wants to change one darn thing from what wedid a dozen+ years ago. Marco Rubio is for people who think the Bush years were awesome,they were justlacking in shiny gloss.

Posted by: Dave S. at December 22, 2015 02:51 PM (uHiz2)

116 98
It's the implication behind the facts, i.e. that the non-college types are a bunch of dumbfucks.

Posted by: Blano

I can't tell if you're referring to my
comment or the article, but in neither case was there any imputation of
lack of intelligence. I said it was interesting.

Read JackStraw at 82. I agree wholeheartedly with him.

Also, to expand a bit, I'm a Cruz voter. He's canny enough to have started to co-op Trump's message. If he can pull it off, he can combine the Trump and Cruz voters and win the election.

I seriously doubt Trump could do the same, but who knows?

Posted by: pep at December 22, 2015 02:51 PM (LAe3v)

117 Wait till the schools get a load of the drug-resistant tuberculosis and Chagas disease that the "New Americans" are bringing in with them.

Posted by: torquewrench at December 22, 2015 02:47 PM (noWW6)

-----

I bet we dont even get a blanket either......

Posted by: fixerupper at December 22, 2015 02:51 PM (8XRCm)

118 Social conservatism, with the exception of the high pregnancy rates among 11 and 12 year old Lateeeenahs.

Posted by: ejo at December 22, 2015 02:51 PM (il4FI)

119 94 AtC uses her tongue like a $500/hour political consultant!

Ace too.
Posted by: andycanuck

Ace should put out a shingle and offer crowd-sourced, leveraged, cloud based, new paradig'em consulting to the GOP, and use the funds for the Las Vegas meetup.

Posted by: weft cut-loop at December 22, 2015 02:51 PM (9YDUz)

120 Not submitting to submitters...of any persuasion, religious, political, racial, wtfever. Time for them all to hit the road!

Posted by: Stephanie at December 22, 2015 02:51 PM (eLvFT)

121 so, thought experiment

let's say Trump goes third party and we all vote for him

the GOPe loses big, Hillary is elected, and she goes on her Vengeance Tour, enacting all kinds of ruinous policies and stacking the courts administration state department and military with marxist lgbtqrstuv alinsky types wherever possible

how long will it take for America to become a smoking ruin and splinter into competitive states?

a guy has to plan

Posted by: Feh at December 22, 2015 02:52 PM (YQYIg)

122 That's all it is. That's all it's ever been. In fact, that's 90% of politics -- politics, especially now, is more about a declaration of one's social and cultural mores than about actual policy.

Two words: Sarah Palin

Regardless of how you feel about her, it was the GOPs reaction to her that was the height of reflexive GOPe snobbery. The Democrat/MSM/entertainment pile-on in 2008 was disgusting, just over the top. And what does the GOP do for a natural politician who got a lot of people who hated McCain to reconsider voting for him? The joined in on the hate-fest.

To me, that was when it really hit me how much they hate their own base, how much they hate non-DC-NYC elites. They prefer Democrats over their own voters.

Posted by: Lizzy at December 22, 2015 02:45 PM (NOIQH)

^^^^^^^
This!!!

Palin sounds like my next door neighbor. They hate us, they really hate us.

Posted by: rd at December 22, 2015 02:52 PM (Sffn6)

123 Bah. A pox upon the GOP and the GOP apologists.
Posted by: alexthechick - love and despair bitches at December 22, 2015 02:41 PM (mf5HN)

I'll vote for Trump, whom I detest, if he wins the GOP nomination fair and square. Why? Because I'm a Republican and if I can vote for previous asshole loser nominees like Romney and McCain then I can suck it up and vote for Donald Trump, whom I detest.

I suspect a Hillary Clinton presidency will be worse than anyone can imagine. All of the signs are there: meglomania plus paranoiameets Alinskyite neo-Marxist ideology plus greed equals...what?

Therefore, we do what we must to stop this evil witch and her flying monkey cohorts. For me, 'doing what I must' may mean voting for Donald Trump, whom I detest. It's better than doing nothing, which is what you seem to be advocating.

Posted by: troyriser at December 22, 2015 02:52 PM (UWlp+)

124
Because he truly identified muzzies with that statement.
Posted by: rickb223 at December 22, 2015 02:46 PM (LO5Qy)

well, for that matter, even if you think Obama is a secret Muslim with nefarious Kenyan and Indonesian and Pakistani connections -- how the fuck does he know what Arabs in the middle east think and why they do what they do?

He's never met any that aren't western educated "leaders".

It's just... I don't know. I'm not a good enough writer to express my thoughts on this topic exactly, but its dangerously conceited and deluded to project your own motivations and thoughts on millions of people you don't know, have never met, and more importantly, have no interest in knowing or meeting or trying to understand.

You just say "oh, well, a college professor once told me that middle america is full of dumb hicks... and I've seen dumb hicks portrayed in Hollywood movies, so I understand them better then they understand themselves because I'm so fucking smart."

Posted by: Harry Paratestes at December 22, 2015 02:52 PM (AkOaV)

125 Obligatory wall o'text make up pictures:

For the 'rons:

http://bit.ly/1gKjpRH

For the Ettes:

http://bit.ly/1mfTkwX

For me:

http://bit.ly/1QJjZPH

Posted by: alexthechick - love and despair bitches at December 22, 2015 02:52 PM (mf5HN)

126 "My politics are also influenced more deeply than I care to admit by
matters of personality. For example, Mommy says that even as a baby I
wanted to be left alone. I will admit that much of the basis of my
political theory stems from just that desire, to be left alone."

Drat. If only the timeless cradle-wisdom of Her Imperial Malevolence were representative of the vast majority of people. Which is sadly not the case.

What most babies want is MOAR FREE SHIT, they want it RIGHT NOW, and that attitude also easily carries over into adult life.

Posted by: torquewrench at December 22, 2015 02:53 PM (noWW6)

127 It's like they take pride in not listening to people, and in making up what they think the people think and say.

Kind of like how they take pride in being completely and willfully ignorant of anything to do with firearms, gun laws, etc. etc.

Posted by: Harry Paratestes at December 22, 2015 02:53 PM (AkOaV)

128 he's been one of the leading voices against amnesty.
I know you wouldn't expect that, but it's true.
Posted by: ace

But there's amnesty amnesty and there's "reform."

Posted by: Bertram Cabot Jr. at December 22, 2015 02:53 PM (FkBIv)

129 >>Also, to expand a bit, I'm a Cruz voter. He's canny enough to have started to co-op Trump's message. If he can pull it off, he can combine the Trump and Cruz voters and win the election.

>>I seriously doubt Trump could do the same, but who knows?

I'm starting to warm to Cruz too for just that reason.

Posted by: JackStraw at December 22, 2015 02:53 PM (/tuJf)

130 I'll vote for Trump, whom I detest, if he wins the GOP nomination fair
and square. Why? Because I'm a Republican and if I can vote for previous
asshole loser nominees like Romney and McCain then I can suck it up and
vote for Donald Trump, whom I detest.

I suspect a Hillary
Clinton presidency will be worse than anyone can imagine. All of the
signs are there: meglomania plus paranoiameets Alinskyite neo-Marxist
ideology plus greed equals...what?

Therefore, we do what we must
to stop this evil witch and her flying monkey cohorts. For me, 'doing
what I must' may mean voting for Donald Trump, whom I detest. It's
better than doing nothing, which is what you seem to be advocating.

So, if I'm reading you correctly, you're on the fence Trump-wise?

Posted by: pep at December 22, 2015 02:54 PM (LAe3v)

131 Good analysis, but I have to question your invoking the Tea Party. From what I've seen, the Tea Party was a bust. Many of those elected on Tea Party platforms betrayed us, and all have been ineffective.

I've been to a couple of local Tea Party meetings, and as Bill Whittle has said, the average age of the people there is "deceased". I saw one leader on an ego trip trying to run everything his way. I saw nothing ever accomplished, at any level. I saw nothing but conventional thinking. No one knew what they wanted to do, or how to do it.

Whether it was co-opted by hucksters, or whether it was just incompetent, the Tea Party had no real, lasting impact. YMMV.

Posted by: despair at December 22, 2015 02:54 PM (VrdxH)

132 A man who lent the Boston Marathon bombers the gun they used to kill a police officer three days after the 2013 attack was sentenced to time served on Tuesday after pleading guilty to drug and firearms charges.

Weasel Zippers

So lemmi get this straight? They want to pass more gun laws because guns bad...but when some scumbag ILLEGALLY gives his gun to another and that person kills a cop, they do next to nothing? And Guns are the problem? I don't think so

Posted by: Nevergiveup at December 22, 2015 02:55 PM (gf8BH)

133 >>>David Frum IS the "e" in GOPe.

not on this issue. he's been one of the leading voices against amnesty.

I know you wouldn't expect that, but it's true.
---
This is the former speech writer, not the crease in pants guy (Brooks)

Which I just mention, because I just straightened the names out in my head.

Posted by: Methos at December 22, 2015 02:55 PM (ZbV+0)

134 108 It was a compliment, Harry!
Posted by: andycanuck at December 22, 2015 02:49 PM (DLIIY)

I know, I know. I was kidding.

Posted by: Harry Paratestes at December 22, 2015 02:55 PM (AkOaV)

135 >>I think it is more that they prefer their own kind of Democrat elites over their own voters!

No, it's more than that. They joined the 'destroy Palin' train and enjoyed it.
Look, they could have approached as hey, we don't get it, but A LOT of people are connecting with this woman - we need to find a way to harness that to get more people into our "big tent" (remember that one?).

But no. Their reflexive dislike of her was on full display. I saw them on shows like Morning Joe cackling with Mika about what a redneck Barbie she was with her knocked up daughter and Trig.

Posted by: Lizzy at December 22, 2015 02:55 PM (NOIQH)

136 "Therefore, we do what we must to stop this evil witch and her flying monkey cohorts. For me, 'doing what I must' may mean voting for Donald Trump, whom I detest. It's better than doing nothing, which is what you seem to be advocating.
Posted by: troyriser at December 22, 2015 02:52 PM (UWlp+)"

And when you lose, then what? Collaborate rather than do nothing?

Posted by: Chris Balsz at December 22, 2015 02:55 PM (4zXgv)

137 5 stars Ace. Great, great piece.

This bit:
"It's about them feeling uncomfortable at dinner parties -- and that's all it is."

That is spot on. These idjits all float in the upper crust, cocktail party circuit. They all have their kids in private schools and live in gated neighborhoods and a good portion of them have armed security around them pretty constantly. These folks do not have to deal with the reality and consequences of their preferred policies, and so because they don't have to deal with the hardships their ideas place on the rest of us the don't understand why we oppose them. It's the same on all the social issues. They don't have the slightest clue why the base opposes leftist social ideology so they just assume it's all some kind of ignorant bigotry and that all people outside of their circles are just unsophisticated.

I am of the opinion that being a politician should not be a career. We need to go back to part-time legislators that get paid a minuscule amount and have to go home and have a real job when they're not in session. Maybe if they had to live with the rest of us and had to look at us a large part of the time instead of being able to hide from the public up there in DC they'd start getting it. These idjits are all just too far removed from the people they're supposed to be representing to be able to speak for us.

Posted by: Mandy P. (Not Patinkin), lurking lurker who lurks at December 22, 2015 02:56 PM (KkVB6)

138 Damn, Ace has grown a pair recently. Welcome aboard.

Posted by: Puddin Head at December 22, 2015 02:56 PM (oDCMR)

139 For me:

http://bit.ly/1QJjZPH
Posted by: alexthechick - love and despair bitches

Share?

Posted by: Bandersnatch, Opus/Bill the Cat 2016 at December 22, 2015 02:56 PM (1xUj/)

140 And as always, the Empress of the Intarwebs puts it better than I could.

/raises lighter for an encore

Posted by: Brother Cavil, down with Eph 6:12-13 at December 22, 2015 02:56 PM (9krrF)

141 101 55 25 years ago is 1990.

I think you need to go back further than that to find pro border enforcement Democrats.
Posted by: fixerupper at December 22, 2015 02:37 PM (8XRCm)

Unions were vehemently opposed to any immigration as recently as 1986, where they said Reagan wanted to bring in more immigrants and legalize those that were here because he wanted to help his big business buddies and screw the working man.

Posted by: Harry Paratestes at December 22, 2015 02:47 PM (AkOaV)

Read the 1986 DNC Immigration Platform. They make Trump sound like an open borders fanatic.

Posted by: rd at December 22, 2015 02:57 PM (Sffn6)

142
...... yeah, but.... why does she get her own droid???

Posted by: fixerupper at December 22, 2015 02:57 PM (8XRCm)

143 Shep never heard schlong used as a verb? I guess that anti-semite never had any Jewish Friends?

Schmuck

Posted by: Nevergiveup at December 22, 2015 02:57 PM (gf8BH)

144 What Paul Ryan and 150 Republicans just did was collaboration rather than opposition. Going to vote for them to stop the Democrats? Or look at what "nothing" means?

Posted by: Chris Balsz at December 22, 2015 02:57 PM (4zXgv)

145 I really don't get Obama.

Three menstruating females in his household and he doesn't know how to handle terrorists?

3 + a mother-in-law.

Posted by: rickb223 at December 22, 2015 02:28 PM (LO5Qy)

Could be they're all more masculine than he is. Of course so was Liberace

Posted by: TheQuietMan at December 22, 2015 02:57 PM (493sH)

146 I think I've completely missed the part about what we must do. What must we do? To whom should we give our support? Which of our candidates can both win and overcome the weight of the elite classes in policy matters? I don't think that I have seen that person.

Posted by: goon at December 22, 2015 02:58 PM (gy5kE)

147 But no. No. I haven't seen a syllable typed or even the most passing
attempts at self-reflection and even the most mild of considerations
that, mayhap, your preferred candidate and manner of campaigning, to say
nothing of policies, were incorrect.

I referred to it as shitting the bed so hard the dust ruffle was still in orbit.
But I am not a delicate flower of virtue.

Posted by: DaveA at December 22, 2015 02:58 PM (DL2i+)

148 Posted by: alexthechick - love and despair bitches at December 22, 2015 02:41 PM (mf5HN)

Sometimes I wish you would start listing names. And I'm gonna need to go take a cold shower now.

Posted by: buzzion at December 22, 2015 02:58 PM (zt+N6)

149
Pssst! Don't tell anyone, but I schlonged Huma!

Posted by: The Rodham at December 22, 2015 02:58 PM (OiFtZ)

150 "I am of the opinion that being a politician should not be a career. We need to go back to part-time legislators that get paid a minuscule amount and have to go home and have a real job when they're not in session."

as am I

but first, to make that feasible, you have to dismantle a lot of federal government and devolve powers back to the states where they belong

Posted by: Feh at December 22, 2015 02:59 PM (YQYIg)

151

Trump's an egotistical Vegas lounge act.

Hillary is a horrible human being.

Posted by: eleven at December 22, 2015 02:59 PM (qUNWi)

152 "It's the implication behind the facts, i.e. that the non-college types are a bunch of dumbfucks."

The non-college types are increasingly wondering why Professor Ditherton Wiggleroom, despite his lofty educational pedigree, has made such a hash of everything he has touched.

Even they, who have been told for decades by the media that they are dumbfucks worthy only of being looked down upon, are now asking why they despite their dumbfuckery are able to easily see things which the Professor finds invisible.

Hence Trump. Who has a Wharton degree, but you certainly wouldn't know it to listen to the guy. Genteel faculty-lounge-condescension quotient = zero.

Posted by: torquewrench at December 22, 2015 02:59 PM (noWW6)

153 Wait did he say ANYTHING at all about fried butter?

Posted by: simplemind at December 22, 2015 02:59 PM (JTwsP)

154 Whether it was co-opted by hucksters, or whether it was just incompetent, the Tea Party had no real, lasting impact. YMMV.

It was the same as befalls all grassroots movements--the professionals moved in and harnessed it to their own goals and agendas.

The GOP failed, so the Tea Party.
The Tea Party failed, so Trump.
If Trump fails...

Soap box.
Ballot box.
We're about to break into the last box.

God help us all.

Posted by: Brother Cavil, down with Eph 6:12-13 at December 22, 2015 03:00 PM (9krrF)

155 Well, I see my podcast cohost is fired up and firing on all cylinders.

Posted by: BCochran1981 - Credible Hulk at December 22, 2015 03:00 PM (gW5Vg)

156 Shep never heard schlong used as a verb?

Posted by: Nevergiveup at December 22, 2015 02:57 PM (gf8BH)

Not to defend twinkle-toes, but I have to say that I've never heard "schlong" used as a verb.

Posted by: ThePrimordialOrderedPair at December 22, 2015 03:00 PM (zc3Db)

157 He's canny enough to have started to co-op Trump's message.

A subtle shift here and there. But Donald Trump has been the best thing imaginable for Ted. Trump is the lead blocker, opening up holes left and right, taking all the hits, consistently moving downfield while Cruz follows right behind.

Not sure where all this leads but as they approach the end zone together things are bound to get interesting.

Posted by: free range jihadist at December 22, 2015 03:00 PM (7v/r5)

158 Posted by: torquewrench at December 22, 2015 02:59 PM (noWW6)

And I *hate* that I'm considered an uneducated rube with shifty intentions by these people, when I am more educated then most of their base and equally as "educated" (well credentialed) as most of the people looking down on me.

It's insulting.

Posted by: Harry Paratestes at December 22, 2015 03:00 PM (AkOaV)

159 >>Not to defend twinkle-toes, but I have to say that I've never heard "schlong" used as a verb.

That would make 3 of us.

Posted by: JackStraw at December 22, 2015 03:00 PM (/tuJf)

160 A few weeks ago I was having a conversation with someone that I've conversed with several times beforehand. Charming, sweet, very intelligent. I figured her for a Dem, but we stayed within our areas of common interests. No harm, no fouls.

During our discussion on world events, she let drop something like this "The Tea Party is like ISIS with its fanaticism."

The shock on my face must have been self-evident, because she immediately started back-tracking and (sincerely) apologizing for having said that. I guessed she didn't mix much with conservatives and dropped that clunker without a thought. I waited until she was finished and then I brought up another subject.

Posted by: mrp at December 22, 2015 03:01 PM (JBggj)

161 "I am of the opinion that being a politician should not be a career. We need to go back to part-time legislators that get paid a minuscule amount and have to go home and have a real job when they're not in session."

Texas. Every other year for about three months.

Posted by: rickb223 at December 22, 2015 03:01 PM (LO5Qy)

162 159 >>Not to defend twinkle-toes, but I have to say that I've never heard "schlong" used as a verb.

That would make 3 of us.

Posted by: JackStraw at December 22, 2015 03:00 PM (/tuJf)

*raises hand*

Four

Posted by: BCochran1981 - Credible Hulk at December 22, 2015 03:01 PM (gW5Vg)

163 Whether it was co-opted by hucksters, or whether it was just incompetent, the Tea Party had no real, lasting impact. YMMV.

Posted by: despair at December 22, 2015 02:54 PM (VrdxH)

How quickly we sideline the IRS *and other departments* going after conservative-themed groups.

True The Vote was audited by damned near everyone who could, and it took them years to recover.

Less-focused groups never did recover, they folded, because they had no resources and their supporters scattered.

The Tea Party movement failed, but it had a lot of help.

Posted by: Merovign, Dark Lord of the Sith at December 22, 2015 03:03 PM (bLnSU)

164 Trump's an egotistical Vegas lounge act.

-----

So was Andrew Jackson. Nearly beat a would be assassin to death with his cane.

And he's on the $20 spot.... for a little while anyway until the Tubman Twenty comes out.

So was Teddy Roosevelt. He DID start his own party.

Would somebody like Trump be an ideal President. No. But just perhaps, hes what we need at this time.

Posted by: fixerupper at December 22, 2015 03:03 PM (8XRCm)

165 Not to defend twinkle-toes, but I have to say that I've never heard "schlong" used as a verb.
Posted by: ThePrimordialOrderedPair at December 22, 2015 03:00 PM (zc3Db)

I have. Its probably more common in the NYC region, where Yiddish words (well, sort of -- rip offs of yiddish words) have become part of the vernacular.

It's usually used in the context of "ripped off" or "taken for a ride" or "hosed" or whatever.

"I got totally shlonged by that asshole selling hotdogs. He thought I was a tourist and charged me $12."

I think it's just a more polite way of saying "fucked" or "fucked over".

Yiddish words are fun though. Without speaking a word of Yiddish, you kind of get what they mean just by the way they're pronounced.

Posted by: Harry Paratestes at December 22, 2015 03:03 PM (AkOaV)

166 So, if I'm reading you correctly, you're on the fence Trump-wise?
Posted by: pep at December 22, 2015 02:54 PM (LAe3v)

If by 'on the fence' you mean 'gun to my head because it's between Trump and Hillary', then yes, I'll vote for Trump. No choice. Besides, whatever his faults as a candidate, I don't think Trump is an evil person.

Posted by: troyriser at December 22, 2015 03:03 PM (UWlp+)

167 I think Schlonging would be a gerund, no?

Any English perfessers hear?

Posted by: eleven at December 22, 2015 03:03 PM (qUNWi)

168 Not to defend twinkle-toes, but I have to say that I've never heard "schlong" used as a verb.
Posted by: ThePrimordialOrderedPair at December 22, 2015 03:00 PM (zc3Db)

I guess none of yoos guys are from NY/NJ

Posted by: Nevergiveup at December 22, 2015 03:04 PM (gf8BH)

169 "My mother in law just kvetches and kvetches nonstop every time I see her. I cant stand her!"

Posted by: Harry Paratestes at December 22, 2015 03:04 PM (AkOaV)

170 A subtle shift here and there. But Donald Trump has been the best thing imaginable for Ted. Trump is the lead blocker, opening up holes left and right, taking all the hits, consistently moving downfield while Cruz follows right behind.

Not sure where all this leads but as they approach the end zone together things are bound to get interesting.

Why does everyone forget that these two pow-wowed earlier in the year?

Posted by: rickb223 at December 22, 2015 03:04 PM (LO5Qy)

171 Ann Coulter's discussion during her book signing last night was interesting:

http://livesigning.com/adios/welcome

Posted by: despair at December 22, 2015 03:04 PM (VrdxH)

172
Posted by: despair at December 22, 2015 02:54 PM (VrdxH)
Yeah that is what I saw too.
My local Tea Party descended into Agenda 21 tinfoil-hat nuttery.

Posted by: chemjeff at December 22, 2015 03:05 PM (uZNvH)

173 It's not 11-12 million. My brain almost explodes every time I see this. They've been saying 11-12 million since the Bush/Gore debates.

It's well over 20, and probably closer to 30 million. Don't believe me? Go to the CA DMV website, where they're bragging they've given away over half a million drivers licenses, out of nearly a million applying. This is one state - granted a big one. But, children, grandparents - lots of them don't want a drivers license. So figure that's at least 3 - 4 million on CA?

Yeah, find one family that doesn't have 5-7 kids, then get back to me.

Posted by: Clutch Cargo at December 22, 2015 03:05 PM (3VgkP)

174 I think Schlonging would be a gerund, no?

Schlonging would be the gerund form of the verb 'to schlong'.

Trump used the simple past present form, 'schlonged'.

Posted by: Bandersnatch, Opus/Bill the Cat 2016 at December 22, 2015 03:05 PM (1xUj/)

175 I think it's just a more polite way of saying "fucked" or "fucked over".

More polite than saying "dicked". Literally.

Posted by: rickb223 at December 22, 2015 03:05 PM (LO5Qy)

176 Used as a verb? Well, a verb form, gerund, as in "She's a-longin for a-schlongin." But not as a participle, or in the tenses. Wharton grammar?

Posted by: Stringer Davis at December 22, 2015 03:05 PM (YBRsJ)

177 And I *hate* that I'm considered an uneducated rube with shifty intentions by these people, when I am more educated then most of their base and equally as "educated" (well credentialed) as most of the people looking down on me.

It's insulting.

Yes it is. The more I found out about SarahCuda, the more I identified with her and liked her. For the GOPe to attack her as viciously as they did told me a lot, none of it good.

McLame both sucked and blew, but I knew that beforehand. I was voting for her, not him.

Posted by: BackwardsBoy at December 22, 2015 03:06 PM (LUgeY)

178 "I'm a lifelong Republican, but if my party is hijacked by anti-immigrant extremists I will consider voting for Ms. Clinton."

The astroturfers are out early this year.

Posted by: rayj at December 22, 2015 03:06 PM (pI/IV)

179 When jobs are outlawed, only outlaws will have jobs.

Posted by: wth at December 22, 2015 03:06 PM (HgMAr)

180 Trump used the simple past present

There's no such thing as that. Simple past tense.

I blame my fingers.

Posted by: Bandersnatch, Opus/Bill the Cat 2016 at December 22, 2015 03:07 PM (1xUj/)

181 Hillary isn't beer track, Bill was.

White male non-college citizens is the largest voting cohort. The Democrats, and now the Republican Establishment, have awoken a sleeping giant. White female non-college citizens may join in.

But a different political fault line is more relevant, and, if exploited, more relevant to the Insurgent GOP.

Right now the Democrats only advance the agenda of Special Interests, with small bribes to LIVs. The Establishment GOP isn't much better, as it advances the agenda of a different set of Special Interests.

The Insurgent GOP can change the paradigm by Putting Citizens First.

Posted by: Ignoramus at December 22, 2015 03:07 PM (r1fLd)

182 Ace,
I have WSJ subscription & avoid editorial page. Mark Levin put Bret Stevens on Twitter this am & it's typical of why I do not read it.

Do you want me to email it to you? I may as well get my $ worth of it.

Posted by: Carol at December 22, 2015 03:07 PM (sj3Ax)

183 That's a whole lot of taco trucks.

Posted by: wth at December 22, 2015 03:07 PM (HgMAr)

184 More polite than saying "dicked". Literally.
Posted by: rickb223 at December 22, 2015 03:05 PM (LO5Qy)

Yeah just how like my ex's grandparents thought "shvartze" was the more polite term to use for african americans.

YMMV on the politeness of the term, but they didn't mean anything by it. I don't think.

Posted by: Harry Paratestes at December 22, 2015 03:07 PM (AkOaV)

185 "Not to defend twinkle-toes, but I have to say that I've never heard 'schlong' used as a verb."

http://tinyurl.com/jjtn8w3

SFW. No schlonging. I promise.

Posted by: torquewrench at December 22, 2015 03:08 PM (noWW6)

186 So lemmi get this straight? They want to pass more gun laws because guns bad...but when some scumbag ILLEGALLY gives his gun to another and that person kills a cop, they do next to nothing? And Guns are the problem? I don't think so
Posted by: Nevergiveup at December 22, 2015 02:55 PM (gf8BH

Gun charges are always the first to be dropped or pled away in a plea bargain.

Posted by: Misanthropic Humanitarian, Bamboozled by love at December 22, 2015 03:08 PM (voOPb)

187 Here's the problem though, the GOP has been the open borders, free trade Party for over 30 years.

That was what Big Business wanted and our mantra was what's good for business is good for America. It also undermined labor union which were the enemy of the GOP.

It's just the last few years, the chickens have come home to roost and it's a big problem. Before, it was jobs nobody wanted like landscaping and the manufacturing imports were also low end junk.

Now, the middle class is looking around and seeing their country is turning into a 3rd world hell hole all to serve the interests of a moneyed few.

Posted by: Tobasco at December 22, 2015 03:08 PM (ys5Qo)

188 Just tell the gop the check is in the mail.

Posted by: Miss Dash the Hyphenated Hyphen at December 22, 2015 03:08 PM (FCj3F)

189 178 "I'm a lifelong Republican, but if my party is hijacked by anti-immigrant extremists I will consider voting for Ms. Clinton."

The astroturfers are out early this year.

Posted by: rayj at December 22, 2015 03:06 PM (pI/IV)

You sir do not know that of which you speak about

Posted by: Gerald Oswin Percible, esq. at December 22, 2015 03:08 PM (zt+N6)

190 I think it's really 25-30 million illegals. Who knows because they're in the shadows.

Posted by: Carol at December 22, 2015 03:08 PM (sj3Ax)

191 The astroturfers are out early this year.
Posted by: rayj

Read the name again. Closely.

Posted by: weft cut-loop at December 22, 2015 03:09 PM (9YDUz)

192 >It's not 11-12 million. My brain almost explodes every time I see this. They've been saying 11-12 million since the Bush/Gore debates.

Yeah, they've used the used he number for decades. IIRC, Coulter's book estimates ~34 million.

Posted by: Lizzy at December 22, 2015 03:09 PM (NOIQH)

193 but I have to say that I've never heard "schlong" used as a verb.

+1
The kind of grammar innovation that makes America great again.

Posted by: DaveA at December 22, 2015 03:09 PM (DL2i+)

194 Why does everyone forget that these two pow-wowed earlier in the year?

Posted by: rickb223 at December 22, 2015 03:04 PM

Oh, believe me, I haven't forgotten. I thought it one of the most important political events of this cycle. Remember though, Cruz traveled to Trump. FWIW.

Posted by: free range jihadist at December 22, 2015 03:10 PM (7v/r5)

195 So lemmi get this straight? They want to pass more gun laws because guns bad...but when some scumbag ILLEGALLY gives his gun to another and that person kills a cop, they do next to nothing? And Guns are the problem? I don't think so
Posted by: Nevergiveup at December 22, 2015 02:55 PM (gf8BH

Gun charges are always the first to be dropped or pled away in a plea bargain.
Posted by: Misanthropic Humanitarian, Bamboozled by love at December 22, 2015 03:08 PM (voOPb)

Then they should all STFU about gun laws

Posted by: Nevergiveup at December 22, 2015 03:10 PM (gf8BH)

196 The shock on my face must have been self-evident, because she immediately started back-tracking and (sincerely) apologizing for having said that. I guessed she didn't mix much with conservatives and dropped that clunker without a thought.

Posted by: mrp at December 22, 2015 03:01 PM (JBggj)

Unfortunately, it *is* very liberal to casually and falsely accuse your political opponents of murder and rape. It's *normal* for them.

When was the last time a liberal said they wanted to kill me? Oh, that was last week. Clearly *I'm* the fanatic.

Posted by: Merovign, Dark Lord of the Sith at December 22, 2015 03:10 PM (bLnSU)

197 Therefore, we do what we must to stop this evil witch and her flying monkey cohorts. For me, 'doing what I must' may mean voting for Donald Trump, whom I detest. It's better than doing nothing, which is what you seem to be advocating.
Posted by: troyriser at December 22, 2015 02:52 PM (UWlp+)

The hell I am and that is a willful misreading of my position.

Your position is roughly my position. I am willing to hold my nose and vote for Trump if necessary. That is not what I am discussing. I am discussing those who state, unequivocally, that I am *required* to vote for whomever the GOP nominates. I beg your (generic your) pardon but what? My vote is mine. It belongs to me. It is the job of the politician to persuade me to vote for him/her. I owe no politician my vote. Such a theory utterly inverts the relationship between politician and voter and turns it into one of ruler and ruled. I reject that, vehemently.

Your argument, if I am paraphrasing correctly which I am trying to do, is that from a game theory standpoint, it is better to vote for someone with whom you do not much agree than to allow someone whom you utterly detest to take office. That is a fair position. But this notion by a certain part of the commentariat that refusing to vote GOP is per se support of Hillary is ludicrous for the reasons I stated above.

Or, tl;dr, I'm not saying do nothing, I'm saying stop telling me that someone other than me decides that I must vote and for whom. It's the notion of the ownership of my vote having a locus outside of me that I find anathema to the concept of individuality and the republic system of governance.

Posted by: alexthechick - love and despair bitches at December 22, 2015 03:10 PM (mf5HN)

198 Posts like this is why I love Ace.

#nohomo

Posted by: Flaccid Member at December 22, 2015 03:10 PM (5fSr7)

199 Krauthammer is paralyzed from a diving accident while in medical school.

Posted by: Carol at December 22, 2015 03:10 PM (sj3Ax)

200 My local Tea Party descended into Agenda 21 tinfoil-hat nuttery.

Given what's transpired so far, you'd have to be talking Antarctic Space Nazis and kitten-eating Reptoids for me to look askance nowadays. And even then I'd be double-checking.

Posted by: Brother Cavil, down with Eph 6:12-13 at December 22, 2015 03:10 PM (9krrF)

201 It's OK Snatch, you were thinking of the imperfect tense, a kinda-sorta past tense that implies continuing action. Language is engineered thought, and a lot of guys who can swing a hammer don't know the name of the hammer they're swinging.

It's only the "I'm an engineer and your department needs to close" types who need that regularly shoved up their apprentice-card asses, repeatedly.

Posted by: Stringer Davis at December 22, 2015 03:11 PM (YBRsJ)

202
Hey, its going to be a wild couple of days in Cleveland this coming July. Yes I think its going to be a convention cluster . . .

Posted by: simplemind at December 22, 2015 03:11 PM (JTwsP)

203 The astroturfers are out early this year.

Posted by: rayj at December 22, 2015 03:06 PM (pI/IV)

Susan is a respected long-time commenter.

Posted by: Reginald Ian Napier-Ogilvie at December 22, 2015 03:11 PM (2WoCi)

204 And when you lose, then what? Collaborate rather than do nothing?Posted by: Chris Balsz at December 22, 2015 02:55 PM (4zXgv)

That comment makes no sense at all. Those who fight the good fight and lose are not the ones who collaborate. Collaborators are usually the ones who don't have the stones to take a side.

Anyway, I'm in 'the only thing it takes for evil to succeed is for good men to do nothing' contingent. 'Let It Burn' is a do-nothing philosophy. So is the 'pox on the GOP' viewpoint when the Republican Party is currently the only vehicle capable of defeating Hillary Clinton and her totalitarian socialist pals.

Posted by: troyriser at December 22, 2015 03:11 PM (UWlp+)

205 199 Krauthammer is paralyzed from a diving accident while in medical school.
Posted by: Carol at December 22, 2015 03:10 PM (sj3Ax)

...and by diving accident you mean not reading the "new diving" sign when jumping head first in to a shallow swimming pool.

Posted by: Harry Paratestes at December 22, 2015 03:12 PM (AkOaV)

206 A small defense of Rubio. Rubio thinks he can persuade some percent of Latinos to vote GOP.

This is not crazy, but may not work.

By the same token, going full nativist and re-tweeting white nationalist stuff doesn't persuade immigrants to vote GOP either.

Posted by: Harun at December 22, 2015 03:12 PM (UBBWX)

207 192 >It's not 11-12 million. My brain almost explodes every time I see this. They've been saying 11-12 million since the Bush/Gore debates.

Yeah, they've used the used he number for decades. IIRC, Coulter's book estimates ~34 million.
Posted by: Lizzy at December 22, 2015 03:09 PM (NOIQH)
***
I could buy that. Hell, has anyone pondered the insanity of attempting to quantify the total numbers of a population whose very presence is concealed?

Worse than trying to guess how many jelly beans are in the jar...... when the jar's in another room, the people filling the jar are denying there is a jar, or jelly beans, and with the lights are off.

Posted by: Kaspar Gutman at December 22, 2015 03:12 PM (Wu2k4)

208 "McLame both sucked and blew, but I knew that beforehand. I was voting for her, not him."

Same here. There was no way on God's green earth that I was ever going to vote for Old Man Yells At Clouds.

It was purely a vote for Palin, and a way to put a thumb in the eye of the elite cocktail-party chattering classes who found her so viscerally horrifying and treated her with such manifest disdain.

Posted by: torquewrench at December 22, 2015 03:12 PM (noWW6)

209 "Good David Frum Diagnosis"

Non sequitur. Your facts are uncoordinated.

Posted by: Nomad at December 22, 2015 03:12 PM (JOG+K)

210 We're going to need more lawns.

Posted by: wth at December 22, 2015 03:12 PM (HgMAr)

211 The funny thing about the "undocumented workers" in this country is that the longer an "undocumented worker" lives in this country, the more likely that worker favors border control.

Posted by: mrp at December 22, 2015 03:13 PM (JBggj)

212 "156 Shep never heard schlong used as a verb?

Posted by: Nevergiveup at December 22, 2015 02:57 PM (gf8BH)

Not to defend twinkle-toes, but I have to say that I've never heard "schlong" used as a verb."

Me neither. I will say that "Red Schlong" was on our list of fake names to give or write in growing up.

Posted by: Benji Carver at December 22, 2015 03:13 PM (OD2ni)

213 I guess none of yoos guys are from NY/NJ

Posted by: Nevergiveup at December 22, 2015 03:04 PM (gf8BH)

I grew up outside of Philly with Yiddish speaking grandparents (and my mother understood Yiddish) and I lived in Manhattan for almost 10 years. Never heard "schlong" used that way by anyone ... until now.

Posted by: ThePrimordialOrderedPair at December 22, 2015 03:13 PM (zc3Db)

214 The astroturfers are out early this year.
Posted by: rayj at December 22, 2015 03:06 PM (pI/IV)

Look at the acronym you form by the name.

*seethes bitterly in corner that I didn't think of it*

Posted by: alexthechick - love and despair bitches at December 22, 2015 03:13 PM (mf5HN)

215 >>The shock on my face must have been self-evident, because she immediately started back-tracking and (sincerely) apologizing for having said that. I guessed she didn't mix much with conservatives and dropped that clunker without a thought.

They had a piece on CNN a while back where a bunch of reporters, straight reporters mind you, were discussing the huge immigration surge into Europe. One of the UK based reporters said something to the affect that conservatives were pushing back on taking more refugees for various economic and security reasons.

Then the reporter said that you then had to consider the humanity behind that position as if it was evil to not default into very liberal positions.

Posted by: JackStraw at December 22, 2015 03:13 PM (/tuJf)

216 155 Well, I see my podcast cohost is fired up and firing on all cylinders.
Posted by: BCochran1981 - Credible Hulk at December 22, 2015 03:00 PM (gW5Vg)

is AtC the Trump to your Cruz?

Posted by: @votermom at December 22, 2015 03:14 PM (hdc0y)

217 I grew up outside of Philly with Yiddish speaking grandparents (and my mother understood Yiddish) and I lived in Manhattan for almost 10 years. Never heard "schlong" used that way by anyone ... until now.
Posted by: ThePrimordialOrderedPair at December 22, 2015 03:13 PM (zc3Db)

Yeah, in yiddish it would not be correct to add -ed and use it as a verb.

But like many loan words, it got anglicized / americanized at some point.

Posted by: Harry Paratestes at December 22, 2015 03:14 PM (AkOaV)

218 Anyway, I'm in 'the only thing it takes for evil to succeed is for good men to do nothing' contingent. 'Let It Burn' is a do-nothing philosophy. So is the 'pox on the GOP' viewpoint when the Republican Party is currently the only vehicle capable of defeating Hillary Clinton and her totalitarian socialist pals.

Waitwaitwaitwait. Vote GOPe or the dems win?

Pardon me, but FUCK YOU.

I have heard that bullshit since I was 18. I believed that bullshit back then.

Nothing has changed. I vote GOPe, they continually fuck me.
NO MORE.

Posted by: rickb223 at December 22, 2015 03:14 PM (LO5Qy)

219 It's probably been noted upthread, but here goes:

1. The GOPe's Corporate Class and Consultant Class truly believe their dopey insistence that Hispanics are "natural conservatives" because the members of the Corporate Class and the Consultant Class don't live in communities in which they are they are the minority and "Hispanics" are the overwhelming majority.

2. If I had never interacted with public school teachers since my father retired, I would probably believe that a large majority of public school teachers were conservative. So if I was trying to sell a strategy that relied on the "natural conservatism" of public school teachers, I would either be (A) abysmally ignorant of the real world, or (B) trying to get uninformed voters to go along with a platform that would otherwise be unacceptable.

3. The same GOPe consultants who lecture us about Hispanics being "natural conservatives" never seem to get around to explaining why it is that Republicans never seem to capture the Puerto Rican vote. Or why Mexico was a one-party state until the last 15 years or so. Or why Argentina has been an economic basket case for most of its existence.

Posted by: Furious George, late to arrive at December 22, 2015 03:15 PM (3GAnN)

220 "I'm a lifelong Republican, but if my party is hijacked by anti-immigrant extremists I will consider voting for Ms. Clinton."

The astroturfers are out early this year.

It amuses me when folks fail the initial recognition of Ms. Susan Olivia Cuthbertson-Klein.

Posted by: Brother Cavil, down with Eph 6:12-13 at December 22, 2015 03:15 PM (9krrF)

221 Gerald Oswin Percible, esq

Now that's a fine sock Clara.

Posted by: DaveA at December 22, 2015 03:15 PM (DL2i+)

222 Posted by: alexthechick - love and despair bitches at December 22, 2015 03:10 PM (mf5HN)

*hides*

Posted by: BCochran1981 - Credible Hulk at December 22, 2015 03:15 PM (gW5Vg)

223 All I know is that under the current cultural paradigm, created by Progressives, not challenged by the GOPe, is that I have nothing, am nothing; that I can be slandered and insulted at will; that a double standard is the only standard of fairness I can expect; that career ruin is my daily risk if I say the wrong thing; that both myself and my family have lost opportunities that will never be recouped, memories that never will be made, years of happiness that did not happen, prestige that should have been there but that wasn't because of stupidity and politics and too much race-consciousness and desire to destroy the old America. There just might be a reckoning, for this is a land I don't think I have a stake in anymore, but which I tried to do my best by; and any honor that might be given is now given out of fear of the damage that could be done, not honest desire to honor. It is a situation no *man* would tolerate, and yet we are expected to not just do so, but celebrate it. For it should be clear--the Left, and the GOPe, think us not men.

We may have to prove to them we are yet but.

The left and the GOP make a fatal mistake--they clearly show us our place in the new order, and yet have no way from keeping us exerting the strength we do have (as now seen with Trump). They demand absolute surrender, they demand acceptance of a cultural Treaty of Versailles, when we have not even begun to be rendered impotent. Not even remotely impotent. When we finally *do* run wild, as a class or as individuals, in whatever way it happens, there will be no stopping us in the short term, and while I cannot predict an ultimate victor, I can say the world the GOP wishes will never exist, as they themselves are probably going to be washed away in the blowback now building.

Those who think they are going to dictate and plan as they please without taking hits are in for a comeuppance.

Like Yamamoto, people such as myself may be only able to run wild for a certain period of time, in whichever way we can do so (and there are many), but also like Yamamoto, when we are able to hit hard and hit often, the only thing that is going to stop us is our own feelings on the appropriateness of doing so, and in that time, a lot of damage can be done. A lot of damage to folks who plan on our own extinction, but who have forgotten that we still have tools of power ourselves. They may think us rabid dogs, simply to be put down. They need to realize that if we are put down, it will not be immediately.

It is all a game in logic and power: If you are going to lose no matter what, or if the victory comes so late as to be Pyrrhic, might as well take down as many, and as much as you can along the way, to see if they are willing to pay dearly for what they had hoped to get for free, or as some droit, or simply because they did not realize they were playing with fire; playing with someone who wouldn't mind fanning the flames (having already taken a loss).

I believe the Left and the GOPe may in fact find out what happens when a dream is deferred, for it is happening to a lot of people, as it has happened to me.

Posted by: That Guy at December 22, 2015 03:15 PM (ez6Am)

224 I've been schooled.

Posted by: rayj at December 22, 2015 03:16 PM (pI/IV)

225 It was purely a vote for Palin, and a way to put a thumb in the eye of the elite cocktail-party chattering classes who found her so viscerally horrifying and treated her with such manifest disdain.

Posted by: torquewrench

^^^THIS^^^

Posted by: Misanthropic Humanitarian, Bamboozled by love at December 22, 2015 03:16 PM (voOPb)

226 Me neither. I will say that "Red Schlong" was on our list of fake names to give or write in growing up.

Wolverines!

Posted by: rickb223 at December 22, 2015 03:16 PM (LO5Qy)

227 is AtC the Trump to your Cruz?

Alex has ginger hair. Trump has ginger skin.

No moar orange skinned politicians! Have we learned nothing?

Posted by: Bandersnatch, Opus/Bill the Cat 2016 at December 22, 2015 03:16 PM (1xUj/)

228 >>> Good David Frum Diagnosis

Needs to be entered into the World's Most Boring Headline contest, right alongside "Worthwhile Canadian Initiative".

Posted by: torquewrench at December 22, 2015 03:16 PM (noWW6)

229 Ace has the key point, but what kind of immigration system could be devised that would bring in less lefties?

I guess you could ban all immigration. Good luck with that plan.

Posted by: Harun at December 22, 2015 03:17 PM (UBBWX)

230 'Let It Burn' is a do-nothing philosophy.

--

uh ok
We could bring marshmallows and sticks?

Posted by: @votermom at December 22, 2015 03:17 PM (hdc0y)

231 is AtC the Trump to your Cruz?

Posted by: @votermom at December 22, 2015 03:14 PM (hdc0y)

Ew. Gross. Trump can go DIAF in my opinion.

Posted by: BCochran1981 - Credible Hulk at December 22, 2015 03:17 PM (gW5Vg)

232 Posted by: Furious George, late to arrive at December 22, 2015 03:15 PM (3GAnN)

Because they don't know any "hispanics" (made up term.)

I mean, they see the guys mowing their lawn and can say "all mexicans are hard workers, unlike lazy stupid inbred Americans." (even if the guys mowing their lawn are from Guatemala or somewhere other than Mexico.)

But they have about as much actual experience interacting with Spanish people as they do interacting with blue collar people from middle america.

Which is to say, none.

Posted by: Harry Paratestes at December 22, 2015 03:17 PM (AkOaV)

233 Ace yet again avoiding any mention of the latest comments from Trump that demonstrate yet again how utterly unsuitable he is for President and how he will get hammered by female voters any national competition should he get the nomination.

Head in sand

Posted by: Tony at December 22, 2015 03:18 PM (n2jU+)

234 And it would be a good time to re-read Angelo Codevilla's essay in the July-August 2010 edition of the American Spectator:

"America's Ruling Class -- And The Perils Of Revolution"

He nailed it.

Posted by: mrp at December 22, 2015 03:18 PM (JBggj)

235 You know how the Corporate/Consultant Class could have gotten their "comprehensive immigration reform?"

BY DELIVERING ONE FUCKING OTHER POLICY WIN!!!

Just one fucking win--not another fucking compromise where the Democrats get 90% of what they wanted and we get 10% (to be bargained away later, natch)--a real fucking, honest-to-goodness, no take-backs, no spin WIN.

Instead, these fuckers have sold us out, stabbed us in the back and lied to us--holding US hostage--refusing to advance ONE SINGLE FUCKING CONSERVATIVE POSITION until we give in and agree to their amnesty.

And there are still people who can't figure out why people like me are supporting Trump? Even here!

If the party--which has a long, long platform full of conservative policy goals and ideals--can't be bothered to enact one single fucking one of those: To hell with them--they DESERVE Trump.

I am happy to burn this Republican Party to the ground--either it goes or the country is gone.

Posted by: RoyalOil at December 22, 2015 03:19 PM (fQ/0p)

236 carol -- yes please.

Posted by: ace at December 22, 2015 03:19 PM (dciA+)

237 My father always taught me that the differences between Democrats and Republicans is that Democrats will stab average Americans right it the heart, while Republicans will stab them in the back.

My father was a wise man. Except for smoking and drinking himself to death and leaving all the family money to that 14 year-old Bolivian whore he married in La Paz. That wasn't particularly wise,,,,but he said wise stuff.

Posted by: Kasper Hauser in Berlin at December 22, 2015 03:19 PM (HqpV0)

238 I think you need to go back further than that to find pro border enforcement Democrats.

You can go back to the Clinton Administration and you'll find democrats that wanted to return Hmong refugees from camps in Thailand to Laos.

Posted by: Thing (Displaced) From Snowy Mountain at December 22, 2015 03:19 PM (kCfMX)

239 You write real good, Ace.

Seriously. Good post. But just for the record, I'm a college graduate in a professional career and I'm finding Trump quite refreshing. As I've said, I'll gladly vote for Trump or Cruz.

Posted by: Soona at December 22, 2015 03:19 PM (Fmupd)

240 I've been schooled.

Ya gotta stay on your toes at the HQ. Truly, a place where wonders abound.

Posted by: Brother Cavil, down with Eph 6:12-13 at December 22, 2015 03:19 PM (9krrF)

241 Ace has the key point, but what kind of immigration system could be devised that would bring in less lefties?

I guess you could ban all immigration. Good luck with that plan.

Posted by: Harun

______________

Rather than getting in the weeds on things like "no Muslims" I think the better approach is simply a moratorium on all immigration, legal and illegal for say 10 years and then reassess it. Ive seen polls where a clear majority favors this and you don't get into "brown people" debates that can quickly go downhill.

Even if the "new" immigrants were a split down the middle ideologically, I really don't buy into the idea that the 3rd world pouring in here helps us in any way. It's not just about voter registration.

Posted by: Tobasco at December 22, 2015 03:20 PM (ys5Qo)

242 And that's who they're running for President now.

Their governor of California _today_ wanted to block planes with Vietnamese refugees from landing there in the 70's.

Posted by: Thing (Displaced) From Snowy Mountain at December 22, 2015 03:20 PM (kCfMX)

243 Should be required reading for every registered Republican, and yellow highlighted for the WSJEP types.

Posted by: RM at December 22, 2015 03:20 PM (U3LtS)

244 Who's up for some fish tacos?

Posted by: weft cut-loop at December 22, 2015 03:20 PM (9YDUz)

245 What's this silliness about hispanics being conservative because they are Catholic. WHEN has the Catholic Church voted Republican. I remember talking with some Boston Catholics in 2008 who couldn't wait for the opportunity to excise their white guilt by voting for a negro Democrat.

Posted by: Marooned Maroon at December 22, 2015 03:21 PM (XhyuK)

246 >>My father was a wise man. Except for smoking and drinking himself to death and leaving all the family money to that 14 year-old Bolivian whore he married in La Paz. That wasn't particularly wise,,,,but he said wise stuff.

Si. A very wise man.

Posted by: Guadalupe at December 22, 2015 03:22 PM (/tuJf)

247 It's the notion of the ownership of my vote having a locus outside of me that I find anathema to the concept of individuality and the republic system of governance. Posted by: alexthechick - love and despair bitches at December 22, 2015 03:10 PM (mf5HN)

Fair enough, but I think what people are saying--what I'm saying--is that takinga certain action or making a given decision x, y,or z has more or less predictable outcomes. However, the decisions you make and the actions you take are certainly your own.

Insofar as doing nothing is concerned, doing nothing is an action and has lots to recommend it in many instances. Just not this one.

Posted by: troyriser at December 22, 2015 03:22 PM (UWlp+)

248 WAKE UP SHEEPLE!!!

Posted by: The Guy Who Yells WAKE UP SHEEPLE!!! at December 22, 2015 03:22 PM (ZgI/r)

249 Their governor of California _today_ wanted to block planes with Vietnamese refugees from landing there in the 70's.

Posted by: Thing (Displaced) From Snowy Mountain at December 22, 2015 03:20 PM (kCfMX)

Well, that's different. The Dems screwed the South Vietnamese basically to death as a country, so those refugees weren't about to vote Dem.

It was never about compassion or feels, it was about power and control.

Posted by: Merovign, Dark Lord of the Sith at December 22, 2015 03:23 PM (bLnSU)

250 Frum DOES have some good points in his Option #3:

"Take seriously issues such as the length of commutes, nursing-home costs, and the anticompetitive practices that inflate college tuition."

All of which are CAUSED by Leftists. Ecofiends block housing construction near job sites. Leftist PseudoEducrats create Bogus Studies Departments. 3rd party Insurance means no price competition in health care.

But then Frum gets it spectacularly wrong:

"Recognize that the gimmick of mobilizing the base with culture-war outrages stopped working at least a decade ago."

Except that it *didn't*, Davy.

"immigration populism looks at best like pandering, and at worst like identity politics for white voters."

So what, Davy? We are fed up with Leftist Identity Politics, and it is time to fight fire with fire.....

Posted by: Curmudgeon at December 22, 2015 03:24 PM (GsebS)

251
"Ignore the trimmers," he wrote
....................

Nothing beats a full Brazilian.

Posted by: wth at December 22, 2015 03:24 PM (HgMAr)

252 I guess you could ban all immigration. Good luck with that plan.

Posted by: Harun at December 22, 2015 03:17 PM (UBBWX)

--------------------

It's been done before in our nation's recent history. It can be done again.

Posted by: Soona at December 22, 2015 03:24 PM (Fmupd)

253 Ace has the key point, but what kind of immigration system could be devised that would bring in less lefties?

Step 1: Total moratorium.
Step 2: Repeal '65 immigration bill, return to prior policy.
Step 3: No benefits for aliens, legal, illegal, reptoid or otherwise.
Step 4: Big surtax on overseas remittances.
Step 5: Let nature take its course.

Posted by: Brother Cavil, down with Eph 6:12-13 at December 22, 2015 03:24 PM (9krrF)

254 "Rather than getting in the weeds on things like "no Muslims" I think the better approach is simply a moratorium on all immigration, legal and illegal for say 10 years and then reassess it. Ive seen polls where a clear majority favors this and you don't get into "brown people" debates that can quickly go downhill."

We should have limited the numbers a bit...to get people this worked up means it was too many, too fast.

'Even if the "new" immigrants were a split down the middle ideologically, I really don't buy into the idea that the 3rd world pouring in here helps us in any way. It's not just about voter registration.'

Many of those are doctors and programmers. They help. 3rd world is really not useful, unless its a code word, because the people coming are often the brains not the brawn...Mexico/Central america excepted.

I also wonder...are some people upset when they see their local top high school is full of Asians, maybe that even though they are going to be awesome citizens it just rankles a bit?

It can't just be "Mexicans are mowing my lawn!" because in my town in Cali, its white guys mowing lawns now, too.

Posted by: Harun at December 22, 2015 03:24 PM (UBBWX)

255 Posted by: The Guy Who Yells WAKE UP SHEEPLE!!!

I was looking for the guy who says this is where it begins.

He owes me $5. Do you know him?

Posted by: Bandersnatch, Opus/Bill the Cat 2016 at December 22, 2015 03:25 PM (1xUj/)

256 >>Why Would 12 Million Fresh Democrat Immigrant Voters Not Immediately
Demand the Legalization of the Next 12 Million Democrat Immigrant
Voters?

In my experience, the strongest anti-immigrant sentiment comes from the ones who waited in line for their green cards, then jumped through every hoop to get their citizenship.

Posted by: looking closely at December 22, 2015 03:25 PM (ji45d)

257 I guess you could ban all immigration. Good luck with that plan.

Posted by: Harun at December 22, 2015 03:17 PM (UBBWX)

--------------------

It's been done before in our nation's recent history. It can be done again.
Posted by: Soona

#####################

Where is it written in our Constitution that America is required to let in more people every year than entire states have currently as their population?

Posted by: Tobasco at December 22, 2015 03:26 PM (ys5Qo)

258 As a college educated guy in a slightly white collar job ...

... I am absolutely positive that part of what we lack, as a culture, are the traditional school of hard knocks blue collar values.

Posted by: Irony at December 22, 2015 03:26 PM (Pn0FW)

259 I guess you could ban all immigration. Good luck with that plan.

Posted by: Harun

A poll 2 weeks ago asked if people wanted immigration to be held at previous levels or reduced.

83% said yes.

What other issue has an 80% agreement?

Other than the one that says we should all go get fish tacos right now. With salsa. And guac. Gotta have guac.

Posted by: weft cut-loop at December 22, 2015 03:26 PM (9YDUz)

260 He owes me $5. Do you know him?

Posted by: Bandersnatch, Opus/Bill the Cat 2016 at December 22, 2015 03:25 PM (1xUj/)

The one who lives down on Mulberry Lane?

Posted by: BCochran1981 - Credible Hulk at December 22, 2015 03:26 PM (gW5Vg)

261 I grew up outside of Philly with Yiddish speaking grandparents (and my mother understood Yiddish) and I lived in Manhattan for almost 10 years. Never heard "schlong" used that way by anyone ... until now.
Posted by: ThePrimordialOrderedPair at December 22, 2015 03:13 PM (zc3Db)

You must hang out with a high class crowd...I was very familiar with it. Not that I hear it every day

Posted by: Nevergiveup at December 22, 2015 03:26 PM (gf8BH)

262 Tony,

So let me get this straight -- responding to an article noting that open borders advocates in the GOP will never forthrightly make that argument, but instead argue about collateral issues to win that argument without having that argument -- you actually choose to bring up Trump's "schlonging" remark as a reason we must elect Marco Rubio and put amnesty into motion?

You just did that, huh?

Posted by: ace at December 22, 2015 03:26 PM (dciA+)

263 Brother Cavil's what does Reptoid mean?

Posted by: Harun at December 22, 2015 03:26 PM (UBBWX)

264 Just in case it hasn't been said (but it can never be said enough):

Fuck the GOPe.

Posted by: Tex Lovera at December 22, 2015 03:27 PM (wtvvX)

265 Catholics are a large and diverse lot and vote accordingly. When you average it out, the mean Catholic voter is right smack in the middle.

This doesn't apply to illegal Catholic immigrants, nor to the Bleeding Heart Catholic liberals who support them.

Posted by: Ignoramus at December 22, 2015 03:27 PM (r1fLd)

266 No fish tacos thanks. But I will have some of George Washington's egg nog...

Posted by: Jill Bidentime at December 22, 2015 03:27 PM (JTwsP)

267 >>I guessed she didn't mix much with conservatives and dropped that clunker without a thought.

Friend attended a parents viewing of a Denver Public Schools diversity training movie called "I'm not a racist, am I?" It chronicles a year-lonh diversity training class of students (yeah, it's bad).

After the film they ask for comments/reactions. First parent (mom) comments" "Oh, I thought this movie was about evangelicals. I hate those people."...Said in a room full of people *after* film preaching tolerance.

Posted by: Lizzy at December 22, 2015 03:27 PM (NOIQH)

268 Fair enough, but I think what people are saying--what I'm saying--is that takinga certain action or making a given decision x, y,or z has more or less predictable outcomes. However, the decisions you make and the actions you take are certainly your own.

Insofar as doing nothing is concerned, doing nothing is an action and has lots to recommend it in many instances. Just not this one.
Posted by: troyriser at December 22, 2015 03:22 PM (UWlp+)

I'm sorry but you just made a reasoned argument that respects the integrity of the voter as an independent being. This is the internet. We can't have that type of language here.

That's a fair point and I don't disagree.

Posted by: alexthechick - love and despair bitches at December 22, 2015 03:27 PM (mf5HN)

269 253 Ace has the key point, but what kind of immigration system could be devised that would bring in less lefties?

Step 1: Total moratorium.
Step 2: Repeal '65 immigration bill, return to prior policy.
Step 3: No benefits for aliens, legal, illegal, reptoid or otherwise.
Step 4: Big surtax on overseas remittances.
Step 5: Let nature take its course.
Posted by: Brother Cavil, down with Eph 6:12-13 at December 22, 2015 03:24

Brother, good ideas. And hell, you're not a paid pol.
Other ideas are
No job lined up-no entry
Don't speak English-no entry

Posted by: Misanthropic Humanitarian, Bamboozled by love at December 22, 2015 03:27 PM (voOPb)

270 Nice, Ace. If only Frum could write (and think) like that.

Posted by: Cicero (@cicero) at December 22, 2015 03:27 PM (8ZskC)

271 Now, if we increase that bloc by 12 million in a go, you tell me how it becomes, somehow, easier to resist further demands for an open border policy, and further demands we stop all border enforcement.
______

The immigration fight is in the end a battle against conservatism, not a battle between Democrats and Republicans. Republicans will not become a permanent minority party as some argue and fear, but it will have to move significantly to the left if it wants to win elections in an America that was demographically redesigned by the open-borders crowd.

Winning this civil war within the Republican Party is much more important to leftwing political hegemony than winning elections themselves, cause even a conservative minority party poses the risk of an accidental election victory, if the Democrats fuck up bad enough. Better to have a competitive, but half-assed leftist Republican Party that doesnt rock the boat if Democrats should find themselves out of power.

Posted by: The Nayden Broad at December 22, 2015 03:28 PM (RwFzp)

272 In my experience, the strongest anti-immigrant sentiment comes from the ones who waited in line for their green cards, then jumped through every hoop to get their citizenship.

That's been my experience as well. Its obvious the system is broken, but the answer is to fix it, not ignore it.

But that point is moot. What we the people want and what is going to happen are utterly disconnected. The people in power have figured out that it simply does not matter what the voters want or say, they can do whatever they wish. What are we going to do about it? Even if incumbents were not reelected at a near 90% clip, the guys that replace them are no better - or if they are, they're swiftly bought out or marginalized.

We have no power. We have no voice. We are ruled, not lead. There's only one answer to that, but who'll do it today? In the modern culture, we've been bred to think that nothing is worth dying for.

Posted by: Christopher Taylor at December 22, 2015 03:28 PM (39g3+)

273 I've been schooled.
Posted by: rayj at December 22, 2015 03:16 PM (pI/IV)

------

Get along little guppy.

Posted by: fixerupper at December 22, 2015 03:28 PM (8XRCm)

274 Brother Cavil's what does Reptoid mean?

Look up "reptoid alien" on your search engine of choice sometime.

...I'm allowed to slip a gag in with serious comments from time to time.

Posted by: Brother Cavil, down with Eph 6:12-13 at December 22, 2015 03:29 PM (9krrF)

275 So what, Davy? We are fed up with Leftist Identity Politics, and it is time to fight fire with fire.....

When Disney starts forcing their own employees to train their foreign replacements, it dawns on people that it's not just maids and landscapers anymore.

Something has progressed past the point of acceptance. Hitting the wallet with a big, ol' dose of leftard reality always helps to wake people up. This is a problem that the government has created, not solved.

Posted by: BackwardsBoy at December 22, 2015 03:29 PM (LUgeY)

276 Many of those are doctors and programmers. They help. 3rd world is really not useful, unless its a code word, because the people coming are often the brains not the brawn...Mexico/Central america excepted.

I also wonder...are some people upset when they see their local top high school is full of Asians, maybe that even though they are going to be awesome citizens it just rankles a bit?
Posted by: Harun at December 22, 2015 03:24 PM (UBBWX)

No, I think people are upset because they see people (some the brains, some the brawn) being prioritized by their own government -- the government they pay for and that is supposed to represent them -- over them.

As far as I can tell, it really isn't about race. It's about the fact that people who "worked hard, followed the rules, paid their taxes, served on juries" (you know, were good citizens) get delegated to second class citizens in the name of "diversity" or "cheaper labor" or whatever.

And keep in mind -- the programmers and doctors who are US born (of any race) and spent decades working to get their degrees, dreamed of the day they'd be successful, took on hundreds of thousands in debt, worked their ass off -- they're pissed to. Their wages are undercut by someone with a dubious degree from Calcutta U who is willing to (temporarily) work for 1/2 the wage and work twice the hours.

And I don't think they would be pissed if it was seen as a fair competition. If everyone played by the same rules, "paid the same dues", and had the same dynamics.

It's the fact that there seems to be a "shortcut to success" available to people who are NOT US citizens at the expense of those who are, and said shortcut is financed and made possible by those who ARE US citizens and have been religiously paying taxes for years.

Posted by: Harry Paratestes at December 22, 2015 03:29 PM (AkOaV)

277 Lmao.

I just pictured ace, after his last comment, as smacking someone on the nose with a rolled up newspaper.

Posted by: BCochran1981 - Credible Hulk at December 22, 2015 03:30 PM (gW5Vg)

278 going full nativist

Using nativist as other than a compliment = ignore_user()

Posted by: DaveA at December 22, 2015 03:30 PM (DL2i+)

279 @weft cut-loop

That is interesting, but it includes "kept at present levels" whereas people here often want it ended completely...or are they going to make exceptions when some Marine marries a girl overseas?

Or some political prisoner is freed and wants to come here?

What do they actually mean?

No poor Mexicans? or no more Chinese geniuses? or no more women in veils?

83% is a huge number. I'm surprised by that, though.

Posted by: Harun at December 22, 2015 03:30 PM (UBBWX)

280 >>I'll vote for Trump, whom I detest, if he wins the GOP nomination fair
and square. Why? Because I'm a Republican and if I can vote for previous
asshole loser nominees like Romney and McCain then I can suck it up and
vote for Donald Trump, whom I detest.

I see your logic, and if I were in a swing state, I'd do the same.

But I am not, and I will not vote for that guy. Not that I'd rather prefer HRC (I strongly wouldn't) but I happen to live in one of the reddest States, and my election-day vote is largely symbolic. Doesn't matter how I vote, the GOP candidate (whomever they are) will take my state.

On the other hand, I *cannot wait* for the opportunity to stand in line and cast my highly precious SC State primary GOP vote AGAINST Trump.

Posted by: looking closely at December 22, 2015 03:30 PM (ji45d)

281 @71 atc:

MEGAFUCKINGDITTOES, with a side order of SMOD/GODZILLA.

Posted by: Tex Lovera at December 22, 2015 03:31 PM (wtvvX)

282 Brother, good ideas. And hell, you're not a paid pol.

Other ideas are
No job lined up-no entry
Don't speak English-no entry

Also, since we're making wish lists:

Each immigrant will have a sponsor who posts a bond, against which any public expense incurred by the immigrant -- from school to prison -- will be reimbursed.

Posted by: Cicero (@cicero) at December 22, 2015 03:31 PM (8ZskC)

283 Ace yet again avoiding any mention of the latest comments from Trump that demonstrate yet again how utterly unsuitable he is for President and how he will get hammered by female voters any national competition should he get the nomination.

Head in sand
Posted by: Tony

Sorry, the AoSHQ Concern Desk is closed for a holiday party. Please leave your concern in the cylindrical receptacle provided and Have A Nice Day~!

Posted by: AoSHQ Concern Desk at December 22, 2015 03:31 PM (9YDUz)

284 When it comes time to hang the capitalist west, an American businessman will sell us the rope.

Posted by: Truth spoken by Khrushchev and assorted open borders traitors at December 22, 2015 03:31 PM (QolCq)

285 244 Who's up for some fish tacos?
Posted by: weft cut-loop at December 22, 2015 03:20 PM (9YDUz)

*raises hand*

Hic!

Posted by: Hillary! at December 22, 2015 03:31 PM (kpqmD)

286 If nativist means I care more about people here than in Syria or Mexico or Ukraine then by all means call me a nativist.

Posted by: Nigel West Dickens at December 22, 2015 03:32 PM (LYCUN)

287 On the other hand, I *cannot wait* for the opportunity to stand in line and cast my highly precious SC State primary GOP vote AGAINST Trump.

Posted by: looking closely

Duchess Graham? Is that you?

Posted by: Blue Hen at December 22, 2015 03:32 PM (326rv)

288 After the film they ask for comments/reactions. First parent (mom) comments" "Oh, I thought this movie was about evangelicals. I hate those people."...Said in a room full of people *after* film preaching tolerance.
Posted by: Lizzy at December 22, 2015 03:27 PM (NOIQH)

Reminds me of the south park episode where the kids had to go to the tolerance Museum

(short clip: http://tinyurl.com/lutuurl)

Posted by: Harry Paratestes at December 22, 2015 03:32 PM (AkOaV)

289 Would one be better off getting 25% of the Hispanic vote or increasing the total "white" vote by 5%.

And for those of you not proficient in 5th grade math..... its not even close.
===========
That, that right there is the biggest lie told about amnesty.

Hell, bump it to 70% and the math STILL doesn't work in support of amnesty.

Posted by: RoyalOil at December 22, 2015 03:32 PM (fQ/0p)

290 The people in power have figured out that it simply does not matter what the voters want or say, they can do whatever they wish. What are we going to do about it?

Even if incumbents were not reelected at a near 90% clip, the guys that replace them are no better - or if they are, they're swiftly bought out or marginalized.

But, knowing that your gravy train will end in four years instead of 40, should you ignore the will of the voters, should keep most of them flying right.

Posted by: rickb223 at December 22, 2015 03:32 PM (LO5Qy)

291 Ace,
I emailed you the offensive editorial whether you want it or not.
I shared it this morning & he expected an Ace comment.

Posted by: Carol at December 22, 2015 03:32 PM (sj3Ax)

292 I know that unions were against illegal immigration 30 years ago, but that's about it--although there was noise as recently as 6 years ago that environmentalists didn't like illegal immigration-for entirely different reasons, of course.

Posted by: JoeF. at December 22, 2015 03:33 PM (FT+e5)

293 You never go full nativist.

Posted by: Cicero (@cicero) at December 22, 2015 03:33 PM (8ZskC)

294 Actually, there is another answer: to take the slow, long-term game and work to change culture until the overall world has shifted.

Remember, when the communists started to infiltrate America, the nation was incredibly hostile toward their ideology and teachings. They were a very small, despised, powerless minority that was actively taught against and condemned in popular culture, education, news, politics, religion, and all other aspects of society.

One of the tricks they used was in Hollywood, where screenwriters were told not to create communist movies, but to slip just a little into each script. Five minutes of each film dedicated to communism, just five minutes of each TV show, each radio program, each movie. Just a little bit, nudging toward their goals.

Instead of making The Conservative Movie, we need to work inside and nudge things a little at a time, pushing conservatism and traditional ideas of responsibility, hard work, consequences, real world economics, etc.

Posted by: Christopher Taylor at December 22, 2015 03:33 PM (39g3+)

295 Speaking of history starting today, I really think that people forget that immigration was completely overhauled in 1965. People are honestly shocked when I point out what the laws were before that.

Don't get me started on the people who claim that it's somehow unconstitutional to place restrictions on immigration.

Posted by: alexthechick - love and despair bitches at December 22, 2015 03:33 PM (mf5HN)

296 Ace yet again avoiding any mention of the latest comments from Trump that demonstrate yet again how utterly unsuitable he is for President and how he will get hammered by female voters any national competition should he get the nomination.

Head in sand
Posted by: Tony

Sorry, the AoSHQ Concern Desk is closed for a holiday party. Please leave your concern in the cylindrical receptacle provided and Have A Nice Day~!
Posted by: AoSHQ Concern Desk

And don't forget your pineapple.

Posted by: aoSHQ Welcoming Committee at December 22, 2015 03:33 PM (326rv)

297 Don't get me started on the people who claim that it's somehow unconstitutional to place restrictions on immigration.

Posted by: alexthechick - love and despair bitches at December 22, 2015 03:33 PM (mf5HN)

IT'S NOT WHO WE ARE!!1!1!

Posted by: BCochran1981 - Credible Hulk at December 22, 2015 03:34 PM (gW5Vg)

298
I saw that Miss Lindsey spent 2.7 million in ads during his run.
The question is . . . what IDIOTs gave him that kind of money.

Posted by: simplemind at December 22, 2015 03:34 PM (JTwsP)

299 Ace yet again avoiding any mention of the latest comments from Trump that demonstrate yet again how utterly unsuitable he is for President and how he will get hammered by female voters any national competition should he get the nomination.

Head in sand
Posted by: Tony

Sorry, the AoSHQ Concern Desk is closed for a holiday party. Please leave your concern in the cylindrical receptacle provided and Have A Nice Day~!

Golf clap.

Posted by: rickb223 at December 22, 2015 03:35 PM (LO5Qy)

300 America for Americans.

Prioritize your citizens first. Stop putting everyone else at an advantage over us.

It's that freaking simple. That's the heart of Trumpism.

What point is membership if there are not only no privileges, but it's a handicap to boot?

America. For. Americans.

Get that down and we can argue the specifics later.

Posted by: Brother Cavil, down with Eph 6:12-13 at December 22, 2015 03:35 PM (9krrF)

301 An immigration policy that leads to a more conservative society?

I thank God that my grandfather was never taught English as a Second Language in what little little schooling he had.

I thank God that my grandfather didn't have the option of going on the dole and relying on the American taxpayers if he failed.

I thank God that my grandfather immigrated to a community composed almost entirely of people of the same ethnicity and/or creed. He benefitted from what Jimmy Carter called the "ethnic purity" of his neighborhood until he was able to fully assimilate and succeed way beyond what was possible in the old country.

Posted by: Furious George, late to arrive at December 22, 2015 03:35 PM (3GAnN)

302 "LPC" or "Likely Public Charge," was the most common ground for exclusion at Ellis Island.

But remember, open borders immigration policy is supported by a poem on the Statue of Liberty.

Posted by: Rapsial at December 22, 2015 03:35 PM (QolCq)

303 "Insofar as doing nothing is concerned, doing nothing is an action and has lots to recommend it in many instances. Just not this one.
Posted by: troyriser at December 22, 2015 03:22 PM (UWlp+)"

I would say that what stops the totalitarians is the resolve of millions to violate the law rather than live in their system. See the failure of national gun control.

Until recently that resolve has been enough to fuel political opposition to totalitarianism on capital hill. You didn't like the Democrats, you could vote Republican, and they'd stop the Democrats.

That's no longer true.

So we can dispense with the Republicans. And "do nothing" and then give President Hillary a revolt.

Posted by: Chris Balsz at December 22, 2015 03:35 PM (4zXgv)

304 The question is . . . what IDIOTs gave him that kind of money.

Hi there!

Posted by: John McCain mooching off his rich wife at December 22, 2015 03:35 PM (uZNvH)

305 Just because this always seems to be a common occurrence when someone starts getting bitchy at ace's post choice.

Your search - n2jU+ site:acecomments.mu.nu - did not match any documents.

Posted by: buzzion at December 22, 2015 03:35 PM (zt+N6)

306 Harry Paratestes,

OK, that makes sense. H1B1 is horrendous. Making workers train their replacements...that just is disgusting when the claim is they can't find American workers. Oh, and Disney and Con-Ed aren't competing with foreign companies anyways.

A general sense that the government is favoring immigrants somehow makes sense, too. Illegals get driver's licenses, etc.

Add in affirmative action, add in state colleges prioritizing foreign students who pay more.

I just worry about the racist angle. The one actual racist white nationalist guy I know loooooves Putin, and now looooves Trump. And Trump decides its a good idea to praise Putin. It worries me.

Posted by: Harun at December 22, 2015 03:35 PM (UBBWX)

307 In my experience, the strongest anti-immigrant sentiment comes from the ones who waited in line for their green cards, then jumped through every hoop to get their citizenship.

My experience, too. Sad to say that the hoop-jumpers, after jumping through hoops, know more about the American form of government than the Democrat "base".

Posted by: free range jihadist at December 22, 2015 03:35 PM (7v/r5)

308 And when you lose, then what? Collaborate rather than do nothing?Posted by: Chris Balsz at December 22, 2015 02:55 PM (4zXgv)

Yes! You MUST support the Vichy! or the Nazis will win!

Posted by: BB Wolf at December 22, 2015 03:36 PM (f7rv6)

309 No poor Mexicans? or no more Chinese geniuses? or no more women in veils?

83% is a huge number. I'm surprised by that, though.

Posted by: Harun at December 22, 2015 03:30 PM (UBBWX)

We had no (legal) immigration from roughly the 1920s until the 1960s after the huge influx of immigrants in the late 1800s/early 1900s. And aggressively deported illegal immigrants during that time as well.

They had some exceptions (genuine refugees, finances / wives of US citizens / etc).

We could go back to that system fairly easily. Have a 10-20-30 whatever year moratorium. Allow people to assimilate. Allow wages and everything else to rise.

Then re-address the issue in a generation or two.

I don't see why that's out of the realm of possibilities.

Posted by: Harry Paratestes at December 22, 2015 03:36 PM (AkOaV)

310 By "more interesting food!" they mean "E-Coli epidemics sure make life interesting, in a Chinese Curse sort of way"

Posted by: IllTemperedCur at December 22, 2015 03:36 PM (xbR8Y)

311 242 And that's who they're running for President now.

Their governor of California _today_ wanted to block planes with Vietnamese refugees from landing there in the 70's.
Posted by: Thing (Displaced) From Snowy Mountain at December 22, 2015 03:20 PM (kCfMX)
***
Duh! Enemy civilians, to their way of thinking.....

Posted by: Kaspar Gutman at December 22, 2015 03:36 PM (Wu2k4)

312 Don't get me started on the people who claim that it's somehow unconstitutional to place restrictions on immigration.

Posted by: alexthechick - love and despair bitches at December 22, 2015 03:33 PM (mf5HN)

IT'S NOT WHO WE ARE!!1!1!
Posted by: BCochran1981 -

Wanna bet? All you Nip & Chinks to the internment camps!
-FDR

Posted by: rickb223 at December 22, 2015 03:36 PM (LO5Qy)

313 fiances *

Posted by: Harry Paratestes at December 22, 2015 03:36 PM (AkOaV)

314 Also, the Horde did notice how I did not use the swears, right?

That's how you know I'm livid. When there are no swears.

Posted by: alexthechick - love and despair bitches at December 22, 2015 03:36 PM (mf5HN)

315 There's a probably fake Rousseau quote that says "if you would know who is powerful in a society, see who it is you are not allowed to criticize."

But the flip side is even more revealing.

If you want to know who is powerless in a society, see who it is you are able to attack without consequence.

Posted by: Christopher Taylor at December 22, 2015 03:37 PM (39g3+)

316 Sorry, the AoSHQ Concern Desk is closed for a holiday party. Please leave your concern in the cylindrical receptacle provided and Have A Nice Day~!

Moose out front should've told you.

Posted by: BackwardsBoy at December 22, 2015 03:37 PM (LUgeY)

317 Its funny that the "nativist" epithets seem to come primarily from people, who have joined Lenin and Trotsky in going full internationalist.

Posted by: The Nayden Broad at December 22, 2015 03:37 PM (RwFzp)

318 we need to work inside and nudge things a little at a time,

We'll see if they actually get any of the "Cascade Failure" in The Expanse from the book to the SciFi channel. It might splain things.

Posted by: DaveA at December 22, 2015 03:38 PM (DL2i+)

319 I just worry about the racist angle. The one actual racist white nationalist guy I know loooooves Putin, and now looooves Trump. And Trump decides its a good idea to praise Putin. It worries me.

Posted by: Harun at December 22, 2015 03:35 PM (UBBWX)

------

National Concern Day???

Teh Blog is full of concern today.

Posted by: fixerupper at December 22, 2015 03:38 PM (8XRCm)

320 Moose out front should've told you.

Posted by: BackwardsBoy at December 22, 2015 03:37 PM (LUgeY)

"The moose says you're closed, I say you're open."

Posted by: BCochran1981 - Credible Hulk at December 22, 2015 03:38 PM (gW5Vg)

321 I just worry about the racist angle. The one actual racist white nationalist guy I know loooooves Putin, and now looooves Trump. And Trump decides its a good idea to praise Putin. It worries me.

Posted by: Harun at December 22, 2015 03:35 PM (UBBWX)

Why? They have no political power -- they are an extremely small minority. They are mostly loony socialists who think Hitler and the American Progressives from the early 1900s "had it right."

That they hear "end immigration" from Trump and agree should have no impact on YOUR thoughts on Trump. They also hear "welfare for all" and "universal healthcare" from democrats and agree, but that doesn't cause Democrat voters to pause.

Posted by: Harry Paratestes at December 22, 2015 03:39 PM (AkOaV)

322 "I just worry about the racist angle. The one actual racist white nationalist guy I know loooooves Putin, and now looooves Trump. And Trump decides its a good idea to praise Putin. It worries me. "

Also, he's not GOP. He was a Democrat who liked Webb.

Posted by: Harun at December 22, 2015 03:39 PM (UBBWX)

323
Its funny that the "nativist" epithets seem to come primarily from people, who have joined Lenin and Trotsky in going full internationalist.
There is only one acceptable identity and its progressive. *Gak*

Posted by: simplemind at December 22, 2015 03:39 PM (JTwsP)

324 I just worry about the racist angle. The one actual racist white nationalist guy I know loooooves Putin, and now looooves Trump. And Trump decides its a good idea to praise Putin. It worries me.

As opposed, of course, to La Raza, BLM, CAIR...

I'm not going to sweat it.

Posted by: Brother Cavil, down with Eph 6:12-13 at December 22, 2015 03:39 PM (9krrF)

325 316 Sorry, the AoSHQ Concern Desk is closed for a holiday party. Please leave your concern in the cylindrical receptacle provided and Have A Nice Day~!

Moose out front should've told you.

Posted by: BackwardsBoy at December 22, 2015 03:37 PM (LUgeY)

Moose? and Squirrel?

Posted by: Boris Badanov at December 22, 2015 03:39 PM (f7rv6)

326 Also, the Horde did notice how I did not use the swears, right?

That's how you know I'm livid. When there are no swears.

That's when we take cover.

Posted by: rickb223 at December 22, 2015 03:40 PM (LO5Qy)

327 But remember, open borders immigration policy is supported by a poem on the Statue of Liberty.
Posted by: Rapsial at December 22, 2015 03:35 PM (QolCq)

a poem written by the daughter of a socialist (who was a young child at the time she wrote the poem) at the tail end of the large immigration influx in the early 1900s.

It was not on the statue of liberty when the vast majority of immigrants passed through ellis island.

Posted by: Harry Paratestes at December 22, 2015 03:40 PM (AkOaV)

328 "That they hear "end immigration" from Trump and agree should have no impact on YOUR thoughts on Trump. They also hear "welfare for all" and "universal healthcare" from democrats and agree, but that doesn't cause Democrat voters to pause."

Trump echoed their thinking with his Putin stuff.

In any case, I hope Trump doesn't win but that he's opened the debate a bit.

One more righteous anti-foreigner sentiment from San Bernadino...you come to this country, and then decide to attack it...total BS...just stay in Pakistan or Saudi...this angers me, too.

Posted by: Harun at December 22, 2015 03:41 PM (UBBWX)

329 "The one actual racist white nationalist guy I know loooooves Putin, and now looooves Trump. And Trump decides its a good idea to praise Putin. It worries me. "

White nationalism precludes cooperation with people of color, and if Trump felt that way he would have been sued for it by now.

Posted by: Chris Balsz at December 22, 2015 03:41 PM (4zXgv)

330 The problem with the slow, incremental, work from inside approach is that I cannot see it working before the nation is obliterated. Sure, there will be an America of sorts around - probably renamed because Amerigo Vespucci was such an evil white racist - but it won't be the USA. So we're down to that one final choice.

Is it worth it to us? Is our heritage, our nation, or freedom, and our future worth fighting for? Dying for? Is our nation worth rebellion to save?

Posted by: Christopher Taylor at December 22, 2015 03:42 PM (39g3+)

331 "Nativist" has no pejorative meaning. It's an epithet used by people who don't have the balls to call you a racist flat-out.

Posted by: Cicero (@cicero) at December 22, 2015 03:42 PM (8ZskC)

332 I'm in for Trump at this point because I believe that restricting immigration is the key to everything else. If you don't allow people to have a say into the folks invited into their country, you will see the ugliness you are starting to see in places like Denmark. Immigrants will be physically attacked. I don't get the sense that any other candidate is as firm on immigration as Trump. And rest assured, there are Democrats that feel the same way.

Any time you think about a candidate, ask yourself "who bought and paid for this person?"

Posted by: notsothoreau at December 22, 2015 03:42 PM (5HBd1)

333 Soooooo
You're saying we need Teh Sarah Palin in a tight sweater to run?
I'm down with that

Posted by: Navycopjoe at December 22, 2015 03:42 PM (ryAbn)

334 I will vote Trump over Hillary, if it comes down to it.

Also, this schlong story is a perfect example of how Trump can win...even when he's "wrong" he's drawing media attention.

Imagine when he starts calling her a criminal...he'll find the exact right little phrase, and repeat it until its even in the heads of the dems.

Posted by: Harun at December 22, 2015 03:43 PM (UBBWX)

335
Is it worth it to us? Is our heritage, our nation, or freedom, and our future worth fighting for? Dying for? Is our nation worth rebellion to save?\\

Don't sweat it. Its too late now regardless.

Posted by: simplemind at December 22, 2015 03:43 PM (JTwsP)

336 "Their governor of California _today_ wanted to block planes with Vietnamese refugees from landing there in the 70's."

And indeed, the Viet refugee presence was, and still is, a silent rebuke to the Tom Haydens and other Commiecrats here.

But are the Syrian refugees today like that? Nope. Heck, they are ISIS sympathizers fleeing from Assad's new weapons supplied by Putin.

Posted by: Curmudgeon at December 22, 2015 03:43 PM (GsebS)

337 Today 56% of Americans want fewer or no refugees admitted at all

Posted by: WSJ/NBC Poll at December 22, 2015 03:43 PM (LYCUN)

338 Soooooo
You're saying we need Teh Sarah Palin in a tight sweater to run?
I'm down with that
Posted by: Navycopjoe at December 22, 2015 03:42 PM (ryAbn)

Go on.

Posted by: alexthechick - love and despair bitches at December 22, 2015 03:43 PM (mf5HN)

339 "The main point is the divide between Trump voters (non-college) and Cruz/other voters (college). Make of it what you will. "

Doers vs Thinkers. Somehow, after 8 years of lectures, I don't think we are ready for more.

Posted by: notsothoreau at December 22, 2015 03:44 PM (5HBd1)

340 One of the tricks they used was in Hollywood, where screenwriters were told not to create communist movies, but to slip just a little into each script. Five minutes of each film dedicated to communism, just five minutes of each TV show, each radio program, each movie.

I was watching season one, episode 8 (iirc) of Fargo recently. Out of nowhere the story swerves to some African "refugee" who gets robbed, lost, shoplifts daily, to survive in the USA. The character appears, eats up 10 minutes, then disappears -- never to be seen again.

The Soviet Union had blatant propaganda, but we have what I would call 'subliminal propaganda' -- just as vile as the blatant variety.

Posted by: free range jihadist at December 22, 2015 03:44 PM (7v/r5)

341 You're saying we need Teh Sarah Palin in a tight sweater to run?
I'm down with that

Posted by: Navycopjoe at December 22, 2015 03:42 PM (ryAbn)

Running in a tight sweater....that has excellent implications.

Posted by: BCochran1981 - Credible Hulk at December 22, 2015 03:45 PM (gW5Vg)

342 336 "Their governor of California _today_ wanted to block planes with Vietnamese refugees from landing there in the 70's."

And indeed, the Viet refugee presence was, and still is, a silent rebuke to the Tom Haydens and other Commiecrats here.

But are the Syrian refugees today like that? Nope. Heck, they are ISIS sympathizers fleeing from Assad's new weapons supplied by Putin.
Posted by: Curmudgeon at December 22, 2015 03:43 PM (GsebS)
***
We have a winner.....
Why, he's broken the thing! (said in best drunken carny voice)

Posted by: Kaspar Gutman at December 22, 2015 03:45 PM (Wu2k4)

343 Some portion of what we now call the United States is going to come out of this mess with a great big dose of Nationalism in their common culture. Might be one or more splinter states that break off ... I don't know.

But I'm pretty sure Nationalism is getting ready to make a big, big comeback.

Posted by: Irony at December 22, 2015 03:45 PM (Pn0FW)

344 "Each immigrant will have a sponsor who posts a bond, against which any public expense incurred by the immigrant -- from school to prison -- will be reimbursed."

Pre-Ted Kennedy the system used to require that you had a sponsor who was legally liable if an immigrant incurred public expense.

If you see the delightful movie Brooklyn now in theaters, the central character comes here from Ireland with a priest as her sponsor.

Posted by: Ignoramus at December 22, 2015 03:45 PM (r1fLd)

345 Soooooo
You're saying we need Teh Sarah Palin in a tight sweater to run?

Trampolining.

Posted by: rickb223 at December 22, 2015 03:45 PM (LO5Qy)

346 Yeah, sometimes it seems that we forget who our avowed National Enemies are and who it is who wants no borders here, although it's OK for other countries to enforce theirs.

Who is it that runs and funds the Open Borders Initiative?

Hmmm?

And who is it that's following that organization's Prime Directive?

Posted by: BackwardsBoy at December 22, 2015 03:45 PM (LUgeY)

347
He has a pen and phone...

"Virginia Attorney General (D) Unilaterally Eliminates Concealed Carry Reciprocity"

That means that most of those 25 states will simultaneously end the recognition of Virginia-issued CCW's.

http://preview.tinyurl.com/zzgotza

Posted by: Barney Fwank at December 22, 2015 03:45 PM (n22zQ)

348 >>Running in a tight sweater....that has excellent implications.

Slow motion.

Posted by: Guadalupe at December 22, 2015 03:46 PM (/tuJf)

349 348 >>Running in a tight sweater....that has excellent implications.

Slow motion.
Posted by: Guadalupe at December 22, 2015 03:46 PM (/tuJf)
***
Hi-Def

Posted by: Kaspar Gutman at December 22, 2015 03:46 PM (Wu2k4)

350 Trump echoed their thinking with his Putin stuff.

Posted by: Harun at December 22, 2015 03:41 PM (UBBWX)

Trump accepted an endorsement(ish) from another world leader. As opposed to what? if he had said "fuck Putin" the articles would have said, "Trump can't be president, he can't even be graceful in accepting an endorsement! How is he supposed to work with the Russians?!?!!?"

You can't win with this stuff.

And I do not care who neo-Nazis support, or what they agree or disagree with. It has NO BEARING on my thoughts on any subject, and should have no bearing on yours either.

Just like when the racist group La Raza (the race) comes out in favor of a law or proposal -- do you hear Dem politicians and voters say "ooh... well, maybe we shouldn't support that. La Raza does, so maybe we should be cowed in to shutting up on our opinions"?

Of course not.

And again, most neo-Nazis support all kinds of Democrat agendas and are much more closely tied to the Democrat party pre-LBJ then the Republican party today or at any time.

Posted by: Harry Paratestes at December 22, 2015 03:46 PM (AkOaV)

351 56 Interesting link at HA today as well. The main point is the divide between Trump voters (non-college) and Cruz/other voters (college). Make of it what you will.

Posted by: pep at December 22, 2015 02:32 PM (LAe3v)

It's like the (D)Marxists are writing it for them.

What utter crap. College imparts nothing, for those that can think for themselves. Same thing every election cycle and has always been proven wrong.

Posted by: 98ZJUSMC Staring at the Lake in the Rain at December 22, 2015 03:46 PM (9d6yS)

352 ' "Nativist" has no pejorative meaning. It's an epithet used by people who don't have the balls to call you a racist flat-out.'

No, it has a different meaning, because you could be fine with black Americans, for example, but you don't like immigrants.

So you're not a racist at all.

"1 : a policy of favoring native inhabitants as opposed to immigrants."

The thing is some of us do want immigrants. Not illegals, but legal ones.

some commenters probably do, too.

But others, who do not, are nativists.

Posted by: Harun at December 22, 2015 03:47 PM (UBBWX)

353 Off you Bolivian slut.

Posted by: JackStraw at December 22, 2015 03:47 PM (/tuJf)

354 He has a pen and phone...

"Virginia Attorney General (D) Unilaterally Eliminates Concealed Carry Reciprocity"
---------------------

Sock fail.

I would additionally point out to NC Morons, that a NC CCW is no longer good in Virginia.

Posted by: Mike Hammer, etc., etc. at December 22, 2015 03:47 PM (n22zQ)

355 343 Some portion of what we now call the United States is going to come out of this mess with a great big dose of Nationalism in their common culture. Might be one or more splinter states that break off ... I don't know.

But I'm pretty sure Nationalism is getting ready to make a big, big comeback.
Posted by: Irony at December 22, 2015 03:45 PM (Pn0FW)

"nationalism" ??

As opposed to "internationalism"?

When did "nationalism" go away? Even the "international" communists of the Soviet Union believed big time in "nationalism." So big, in fact, that they wouldn't let their citizens leave the USSR.

Posted by: Harry Paratestes at December 22, 2015 03:48 PM (AkOaV)

356 "Nativist" is simply a slur by people who believe borders and nations are racist and bigoted to begin with. They believe honestly that the reason we have wars is because people have nations and countries and if we could just get rid of all those we would join hands and sing "Kum Ba Ya" with the UN in charge. Its like calling normal human beings "breeders" because they aren't demented into wanting sex with their own gender.

Posted by: Christopher Taylor at December 22, 2015 03:48 PM (39g3+)

357 "We had no (legal) immigration from roughly the 1920s until the 1960s"

False. It was tight and an immigrant needed a sponsor who agreed to be legally liable if the immigrant created public expense.

Not a bad system actually. Ted Kennedy killed it.

Posted by: Ignoramus at December 22, 2015 03:48 PM (r1fLd)

358 I would additionally point out to NC Morons, that a NC CCW is no longer good in Virginia.

Posted by: Mike Hammer, etc., etc. at December 22, 2015 03:47 PM (n22zQ)

I believe that it doesn't take effect until Feb 1. So you can still legally carry there for another month or so.

And yeah, that means I can't carry when we go to see my wife's family in June.

Posted by: BCochran1981 - Credible Hulk at December 22, 2015 03:49 PM (gW5Vg)

359 So caring more about American citizens than Syrian citizens is a negative?

Posted by: Nigel West Dickens at December 22, 2015 03:49 PM (LYCUN)

360 "Nativist" is simply a slur by people who believe borders and nations are racist and bigoted to begin with. They believe honestly that the reason we have wars is because people have nations and countries and if we could just get rid of all those we would join hands and sing "Kum Ba Ya" with the UN in charge. Its like calling normal human beings "breeders" because they aren't demented into wanting sex with their own gender.

IOW, Fvck them.

Posted by: rickb223 at December 22, 2015 03:49 PM (LO5Qy)

361 "Just like when the racist group La Raza (the race) comes out in favor of a law or proposal -- do you hear Dem politicians and voters say "ooh... well, maybe we shouldn't support that. La Raza does, so maybe we should be cowed in to shutting up on our opinions"?

When La Raza supports something that I also like, it gives me pause.

Maybe Trump was in a no-win situation, or maybe he just didn't want to walk it back. Maybe he's selling too many condos to Russians.

Posted by: Harun at December 22, 2015 03:49 PM (UBBWX)

362 The thing is some of us do want immigrants. Not illegals, but legal ones.

some commenters probably do, too.

But others, who do not, are nativists.
Posted by: Harun at December 22, 2015 03:47 PM (UBBWX)

So the US was a "nativist" country from the 1920s until the 1960s?

Japan is a "nativist" country?

Saudi Arabia is a "nativist" country?

Australia is a "nativist" country?

And what countries, do tell, are not "nativist"?

Keep in mind that the US allows more legal immigration currently then any country on the planet.

Posted by: Harry Paratestes at December 22, 2015 03:50 PM (AkOaV)

363 "We had no (legal) immigration from roughly the 1920s until the 1960s"

False. It was tight and an immigrant needed a sponsor who agreed to be legally liable if the immigrant created public expense.

Not a bad system actually. Ted Kennedy killed it.

It was in the trunk of his Olds?

Posted by: rickb223 at December 22, 2015 03:50 PM (LO5Qy)

364
As it so happens I heard 2 min. of Medved on the radio in the car just now.

So you see, the GOP has a "death wish". What is that? Amnesty, nurse-maiding rather than smashing O-care, continuing with wild deficit spending?

Nope. Thinking of nominating Trump or ..... Cruz. Why? Cuz mythical implausible counter-factual nuclear rejection of such nativists by the moderate middle.

Medved usually comes across as a less stupid MSNBC host. Clueless on most substance. But boy is he the embodiment of the clueless, arrogant, condescending "establishment" mediocrity ace is attacking here.

Perhaps by coincidence, the American people are very opposed to amnesty, which is the most irresponsible and indefensibly stupid policy "idea" of modern times. Yet ..... yet ..... airheads like Medved are really almost obsessed with pushing this politically deadly and wildly unpopular concept.

Posted by: rhomboid at December 22, 2015 03:51 PM (QDnY+)

365 When La Raza supports something that I also like, it gives me pause.

Posted by: Harun at December 22, 2015 03:49 PM (UBBWX)

Well, that's nonsensical. You should believe in your ideas regardless of what some fringe group believes.

And the entire Democrat party works that way.

They never say, "you know... the Nazis supported universal healthcare. Maybe we shouldn't."

"You know... Hitler was a vegetarian, so maybe we should be against vegetarianism."

"You know... Hitler banned smoking... maybe we should be against smoking bans"

Posted by: Harry Paratestes at December 22, 2015 03:51 PM (AkOaV)

366 GOPe v. Donk: No matter who wins, we lose.

Posted by: The Great White Snark at December 22, 2015 03:51 PM (uJZRq)

367 The thing is some of us do want immigrants. Not illegals, but legal ones.

some commenters probably do, too.

But others, who do not, are nativists.

There's a pretty big difference between "favoring" a nation's citizens and not wanting any immigrants at all. Nativist is simply an attitude of preference toward one's own people and nation over others, not opposition to all immigration. Its a reasonable, logical, and proper attitude.

Posted by: Christopher Taylor at December 22, 2015 03:52 PM (39g3+)

368 Ace sez:

"It's about them feeling uncomfortable at dinner parties -- and that's all it is."

Ace, you are so naive, living in some fantasia of what the wealthy are currently like, based on what they used to be like.

Let me correct that sentence for you:

"It's about them feeling uncomfortable at omnisexual S&M orgies -- and that's all it is."

Posted by: zombie at December 22, 2015 03:52 PM (jBuUi)

369 "main point is the divide between Trump voters (non-college) and Cruz/other voters (college)."

College grads are only about 34%. Many college grads lean left for a variety of reasons.

Trump's challenge is with college-educated women but they're disproportionately in Blue States that Hillary will already win.

Cruz's challenge is going down-market to non-college grads.

Posted by: Ignoramus at December 22, 2015 03:53 PM (r1fLd)

370 Harry ...

I'm talking Nationalism in the Wilsonian sense, in the team photo with Fascism - in our case, something that may look like 1930s Italy.

Jonah Goldberg wrote a book about it ...

Posted by: Irony at December 22, 2015 03:53 PM (Pn0FW)

371
Re Medved etc. etc.

The money'd elite of a certain age know the demographics are such that without fresh bodies having babies the system will collapse.
However, the 'fresh bodies' will be taking out of the system faster than they pay in. THe elites think if they legalize them they can revenue capture and fix the books. Its a pipe dream, but its the only one they have. Otherwise the system will explode and all their hard work and "success" will be for naught.

Posted by: simplemind at December 22, 2015 03:54 PM (JTwsP)

372 Read my comments. I did not say nativist was pejorative.

It does not mean racist.

It just means you prefer the native-born to immigrants.

If you want a special word instead, like you can't deal with the term, then come up with the word you want to be called.

Anti-immigrant?

What?

Posted by: Harun at December 22, 2015 03:54 PM (UBBWX)

373 When La Raza supports something that I also like, it gives me pause.

Meh, right is right, no matter who holds that position. You could ask a Klansman if its right to torture babies and they'd be horrified. Would that make it okay to do? Truth and right are objective, not colored by who happens to hold to or reject them.

Posted by: Christopher Taylor at December 22, 2015 03:55 PM (39g3+)

374 PDF warning!

Here's the 83% I referenced above because your glare is too much to take, so I did work on my day off... assholes.

Pew Research
Sept. 28, 2015

Page 62
"% saying immigration should be ..."

34% Kept at its present level
+
49% Decreased
= 83%

PDF warning!

Posted by: AoSHQ Concern Desk at December 22, 2015 03:55 PM (9YDUz)

375 False. It was tight and an immigrant needed a sponsor who agreed to be legally liable if the immigrant created public expense.

Not a bad system actually. Ted Kennedy killed it.
Posted by: Ignoramus at December 22, 2015 03:48 PM (r1fLd

I don't mean literally "no immigration" (there were exceptions, as I said), but the numbers dropped from 9 million a decade in the early 1900s, to less than 500,000 a decade until the 1960s.

Very strict quotas, very low number of people allowed in: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_Act_of_1924

Posted by: Harry Paratestes at December 22, 2015 03:56 PM (AkOaV)

376 "There's a pretty big difference between "favoring" a nation's citizens and not wanting any immigrants at all. Nativist is simply an attitude of preference toward one's own people and nation over others, not opposition to all immigration. Its a reasonable, logical, and proper attitude."

No, several commenters have asked for complete moratoriums on immigration.

Soona, Brothe Cavil, etc.

they use the word "moratorium" explicitly.

Those are nativists. Ask Soona. Ask Brother Cavil.

If you just want to ratchet it down 20%, then I'm not sure there is a word for that.

Posted by: Harun at December 22, 2015 03:57 PM (UBBWX)

377 This is all so damned depressing...

Posted by: donna at December 22, 2015 03:57 PM (/dSsq)

378 >>>164 Trump's an egotistical Vegas lounge act.

-----

So was Andrew Jackson. Nearly beat a would be assassin to death with his cane.

And he's on the $20 spot.... for a little while anyway until the Tubman Twenty comes out.

So was Teddy Roosevelt. He DID start his own party.

Would somebody like Trump be an ideal President. No. But just perhaps, hes what we need at this time.
Posted by: fixerupper at December 22, 2015 03:03 PM (8XRCm)

We need that in an ad.

Posted by: m at December 22, 2015 03:58 PM (d4uu4)

379 No, several commenters have asked for complete moratoriums on immigration.

Add Me too..... It's only fair....

Posted by: donna at December 22, 2015 03:58 PM (/dSsq)

380 No, several commenters have asked for complete moratoriums on immigration.

Irrelevant to the discussion. You tried to portray people who prefer their own nation's citizens over others as being totally opposed to immigration. That is false. There are some who do, but that doesn't mean "nativist" = "no immigration."

Posted by: Christopher Taylor at December 22, 2015 03:58 PM (39g3+)

381 ou're saying we need Teh Sarah Palin in a tight sweater to run?
I'm down with that

Posted by: Navycopjoe at December 22, 2015 03:42 PM (ryAbn)

Running in a tight sweater....that has excellent implications.
Posted by: BCochran1981 - Credible Hulk at December 22, 2015 03:45 PM (gW5Vg)

-----

Jumping on trampoline would be MUCH better.....

Posted by: fixerupper at December 22, 2015 03:59 PM (8XRCm)

382 It just means you prefer the native-born to immigrants.

Posted by: Harun at December 22, 2015 03:54 PM (UBBWX)

Prefer in what sense?

Let me back up here -- do you think the concept of "nations" exist? That there are "artificial borders" between different political entities that we know as "countries" that exist for a reason and should exist?

Or do you believe in some kind of utopian one world government type scenario?

Posted by: Harry Paratestes at December 22, 2015 03:59 PM (AkOaV)

383 Once you realize that punishing success and rewarding crime are the Democrats' primary tools, it doesn't take a huge leap to see Ayn Rand as a rather prescient figure.

Remember when we thought she was a bit nutty? Yeah, I'm embarrassed, too...

Posted by: setnaffa at December 22, 2015 03:59 PM (BtRXi)

384 but the numbers dropped from 9 million a decade in the early 1900s, to less than 500,000 a decade until the 1960s.

And when you hear about "vetting" people, that's really the only way it could possibly be done properly. There's no way they can check everyone thoroughly at the current rate.

But we can't talk about drastic reduction to immigration even if it may save the lives of American citizens. Because nativist or racist or something.

Posted by: Nigel West Dickens at December 22, 2015 04:00 PM (LYCUN)

385 No, several commenters have asked for complete moratoriums on immigration.

I probably should have been specific about it being a limited time period moratorium, which is generally the assumed meaning of "moratorium" rather than "no more ever". But we really do need to cut off the flow until the whole mess needs fixing. If you want to call that "nativist", go ahead. But next time you cut off the water so you can fix the crapper, be prepared to be called "hydrophobe".

Posted by: Brother Cavil, down with Eph 6:12-13 at December 22, 2015 04:00 PM (9krrF)

386 Damn Irish are up to it again:

Fon'Tae O'Bannon is accused of slamming Ekblad into a cafeteria table and chair when Ekblad tried intervening in a fight. The student then choked him until he was unconscious. O'Bannon was charged with third-degree assault.

Ekblad suffered brain damage and a concussion in the incident and needed hospitalization.

Posted by: The Great White Snark at December 22, 2015 04:00 PM (uJZRq)

387 Well for what it's worth, we'll have a few moments of schadenfreude when they vote the Democrats in permanently and they find out that all that stuff they want, they're going to have to pay for because the young rich people have left the country or don't pay taxes and all the old rich people too or have died and the people in the middle class have given up and are now in line with them at the welfare office.

When they find out they'll be paying 90% of their salary to fund their benefits, suddenly they'll realize why socialism didn't work in THEIR home countries either.

Plus there's going to be a lot of people who can quite easily make do off the grid and you all can suck it trying to find them and make them pay for their freeloading.

Then too by that time we might be able to convince a few states that it's time to abandon ship before we're taken with it.

Posted by: Bitter Clinger and All That at December 22, 2015 04:00 PM (Xo1Rt)

388
375 You know what else became real popular in 60's?

birth control pills.
approved in 1960 by 62 2 million women on it by 65 over 8 million on it.

Connection to liberalized immigration in 65?

Posted by: simplemind at December 22, 2015 04:00 PM (JTwsP)

389 This is all so damned depressing...
Posted by: donna at December 22, 2015 03:57 PM (/dSsq)

-------

....that I set my sights on Monday and I got myself undressed
I ain't ready for the altar but I do agree there's times
When a woman sure can be a friend of mine

Posted by: fixerupper at December 22, 2015 04:01 PM (8XRCm)

390 And so for all those reasons, and many more, the party Establishment has gone one way, and the people have gone another. They have their goals, and the current residents of the US aren't an integral part of them. People can be replaced. Wives, husbands, friends, indigenous peoples. Replaced without a care or a second thought. It's happened before, and it's happening now.

Every vote they get in November will be further justification of their contempt for those that vote for them. Weird, but true.

Posted by: OneEyedJack at December 22, 2015 04:01 PM (kKHcp)

391
But others, who do not, are nativists.

Posted by: Harun at December 22, 2015 03:47 PM (UBBWX)

If Nativists are the ones who see us going into DEBT, supporting OTHER countries children, instead of our own...

Then yes, I am a Nativist.

It costs an average of $14,000 per year, per student in the US.

That's a lot of damn debt we are going into so you can feel morally smug about being 'nice'... especially at a time when LESS Americans are working as a percentage than any other time in the last 40 years...

Posted by: BB Wolf at December 22, 2015 04:01 PM (f7rv6)

392 "49% Decreased"

That is a huge number! Wow. No wonder Trump is doing well.

That also is a sign that the pols and government have not handled the situation well at all.

Posted by: Harun at December 22, 2015 04:01 PM (UBBWX)

393 The funny thing about all this is that Donald Trump has succeeded in making Ted Cruz look like a candle carrying altar boy, dressed in white.

I mean who in their right mind could have predicted this six months ago?

Posted by: free range jihadist at December 22, 2015 04:01 PM (7v/r5)

394 Point was made that unions used to oppose immigration. That was when our unions represented people who made things.

Today's unions mostly represent those who stand to benefit from lllegal Immigrants, including school teachers, health care workers, social workers and prison guards.

Posted by: Ignoramus at December 22, 2015 04:02 PM (r1fLd)

395
"Nativist" and "racist" are now only meaningful terms in that they mark those using them, in the current fashion, as stupid. And nasty. And ignorant. And, in the latter case, racist themselves (in the old, meaningful sense).

Amnesty is the most transparently and indefensibly irresponsible and unworkable policy proposed in my lifetime. (other incredibly stupid ideas were at least a tiny bit more complicated) Any form of amnesty (which means anything other than full enforcement and border security) will, with certainty, lead to an exacerbated version of the same problems. Addidtionally, in historical context, and given that the issue is being openly fought over - any additional amnesty now will make the problem, in a practical sense, completely beyond remedy.

Illegal immigrants are stone-cold rational actors. Unlike the idiots who want amnesty for any reason. Therefore they will know - not just sense, but know - that anything other than enforcement and return to rule of law in immigration now signifies the end of those things, forever (as a practical matter). There will be no credibility whatever to any future proposals or observed political trends in favor of enforcement.

Rubio deserves to lose because he embraced a particularly histrionic version ofan indefensibly stupid and unworkable policy. His intellect and policy sense are more than impugned - he showed he has no more fitness for public office than Obama or Biden or Patty Murray or Babs Boxer or the congressman who worried about Guam tipping over. In a word, and in a practical sense, stupid.

Posted by: rhomboid at December 22, 2015 04:03 PM (QDnY+)

396 And when you hear about "vetting" people, that's really the only way it could possibly be done properly. There's no way they can check everyone thoroughly at the current rate.

But we can't talk about drastic reduction to immigration even if it may save the lives of American citizens. Because nativist or racist or something.
Posted by: Nigel West Dickens at December 22, 2015 04:00 PM (LYCUN)

Well, there was less vetting to be done. There was a sponsor system, many people that came over were family of US citizens (wives, kids, parents, siblings, cousins), and the number was much more manageable compared to the previous decades.

And of course, historians now like to put it in "racial terms" but there was a lot of logic to the system.

Posted by: Harry Paratestes at December 22, 2015 04:03 PM (AkOaV)

397 Lots of Outragey goodness in this one.

Posted by: Mikey NTH - Save the Wails at the Outrage Outlet! at December 22, 2015 04:03 PM (hLRSq)

398 I think if we just sat down and talked about our feelings we could solve so many of our problems. Just as long as white people surrender to the idea that they are the pale satans of this world and should eventually die off to non-existence or killed outright.

Posted by: Soona at December 22, 2015 04:04 PM (Fmupd)

399 Every vote they get in November will be further justification of their contempt for those that vote for them. Weird, but true.

And, as Ace points out, every vote they do not get is treated as justification of their contempt for voters.

Posted by: Christopher Taylor at December 22, 2015 04:04 PM (39g3+)

400
Today's unions mostly represent those who stand to benefit from lllegal Immigrants, including school teachers, health care workers, social workers and prison guards."

Wow. Cut. Jib. Newsletter.

Posted by: simplemind at December 22, 2015 04:04 PM (JTwsP)

401 "It was tight and an immigrant needed a sponsor who agreed to be legally liable if the immigrant created public expense."

A remnant of this still exists.

It's in the "family reunification" provisions.

When people bring in their foreign-born elderly parents, who of course haven't paid a dime into the U.S. entitlement system, they are required to sign a document stating that said elderly parents will be financially supported by the Stateside family and not become a "public charge".

Since there is absolutely no followup and no enforcement, what then typically happens is that these newly imported elderly get dumped directly into the SSI system.

Chinese immigrant families in Commiefornia are absolutely notorious for this bait and switch. But, hey, they're an intensely pragmatic culture. If gweilos are so stupid as to give away free money, the Chinese are not so stupid as to turn it down out of some silly notion of being "fair".

Posted by: torquewrench at December 22, 2015 04:05 PM (noWW6)

402 So what is the name for the person who:

- Believes in the concepts of nations and borders
- Believes national policies should benefit first and foremost citizens
- Believes that restricting immigration is okay, as long as it is done for the right reasons, i.e., based on legitimate economic or security concerns, and not based on irrational fear

Posted by: chemjeff at December 22, 2015 04:05 PM (uZNvH)

403
Well, there was less vetting to be done. There was a sponsor system, many people that came over were family of US citizens (wives, kids, parents, siblings, cousins), and the number was much more manageable compared to the previous decades.

My Mother came over from Sweden with Her Mom and Sister..... My Grandmother had a sponsor, basically She was "conscripted' to work.... No free ride like today....

Posted by: donna at December 22, 2015 04:05 PM (/dSsq)

404 "If Nativists are the ones who see us going into DEBT, supporting OTHER countries children, instead of our own...

Then yes, I am a Nativist.

It costs an average of $14,000 per year, per student in the US."

Explain. Out-of-state tuition should cover the costs.

What children are you referring to? college kids?

Posted by: Harun at December 22, 2015 04:05 PM (UBBWX)

405 I just don't get this "nativists are people are think of native people more then immigrants"

What does that mean?

Of course our government should represent "native" people who vote for them, and not for any Joe Schmoe who can get a plane ticket from anywhere in the world to JFK and say "give me all the benefits of being a US citizen now, please."

That's how every government in the history of civilian has acted. If its a complete free-for-all, and anyone who can make it to the US shores is now as important if not moreso then US citizens, then why do we even have a government?

Posted by: Harry Paratestes at December 22, 2015 04:06 PM (AkOaV)

406 402 So what is the name for the person who:

- Believes in the concepts of nations and borders
- Believes national policies should benefit first and foremost citizens
- Believes that restricting immigration is okay, as long as it is done for the right reasons, i.e., based on legitimate economic or security concerns, and not based on irrational fear
Posted by: chemjeff at December 22, 2015 04:05 PM (uZNvH

Sane

OT It's Christmas/New Years season, time to renew your AoS Platinum Subscription

Posted by: Misanthropic Humanitarian, Bamboozled by love at December 22, 2015 04:07 PM (voOPb)

407 Would somebody like X be an ideal President.

Really? The ideal is an option? Or has been in recent memory? What changed?

Posted by: aoSHQ Welcoming Committee at December 22, 2015 04:07 PM (326rv)

408
What children are you referring to? college kids?Posted by: Harun Say, you aren't from around here are you?

Posted by: simplemind at December 22, 2015 04:07 PM (JTwsP)

409
Explain. Out-of-state tuition should cover the costs.

Who pays the difference?

Posted by: Brother Cavil, down with Eph 6:12-13 at December 22, 2015 04:07 PM (9krrF)

410 It costs an average of $14,000 per year, per student in the US."

Explain. Out-of-state tuition should cover the costs.

What children are you referring to? college kids?
Posted by: Harun at December 22, 2015 04:05 PM (UBBWX)

a) every state college I know of requires money from the general treasury -- out of state tuitions do not offset instate

b) he's talking about k-12 education

Posted by: Harry Paratestes at December 22, 2015 04:07 PM (AkOaV)

411 Whoa. The conditions in the Isamic refugee camps is worse than I thought. Refugees in Paris are rioting because they have no wifi. From Drudge.

Next crisis: bandwidth.

Posted by: The Great White Snark at December 22, 2015 04:07 PM (uJZRq)

412
Well, Bill Kristol said they should start a new party if Trump is nominated.

Perfect!!! I thought we would have to create our own, but they could simply just leave!

Posted by: Guy Mohawk at December 22, 2015 04:08 PM (ODxAs)

413 'Since there is absolutely no followup and no enforcement, what then typically happens is that these newly imported elderly get dumped directly into the SSI system.

Chinese immigrant families in Commiefornia are absolutely notorious for this bait and switch. But, hey, they're an intensely pragmatic culture. If gweilos are so stupid as to give away free money, the Chinese are not so stupid as to turn it down out of some silly notion of being "fair".'

Is this an immigration problem, or a problem that the government has decided to be cutesy with the rules and not enforce anything?

I think the government is out of control, and that is one example of it, but there are just as many with native born American bilking the system.

So...we can ban immigrants, or we could fix the system.

To be honest, maybe banning immigrants is more likely to happen and be enforced.

Posted by: Harun at December 22, 2015 04:08 PM (UBBWX)

414 What children are you referring to? college kids?
Posted by: Harun at December 22, 2015 04:05 PM (UBBWX)

----

Start with the ten thousand unaccompanied minors streaming across our southern border in just the last two months.

Those children.

Posted by: fixerupper at December 22, 2015 04:08 PM (8XRCm)

415 Refugees]/b] in Paris are rioting because they have no wifi

They keep using that word......

Posted by: That one guy from that one movie at December 22, 2015 04:09 PM (LYCUN)

416 So what is the name for the person who:

Patriot?

Posted by: Christopher Taylor at December 22, 2015 04:09 PM (39g3+)

417
b) he's talking about k-12 education

Seriously, have you people not priced a college education recently? of course that's the tax payers freight for public education k -12

Posted by: simplemind at December 22, 2015 04:09 PM (JTwsP)

418 "And still the Corporate Class natters on, singing the same old song: Just give people who favor the Democrat Socialist-Welfare state the right to vote, and somehow, this will result in them voting a party which supposedly stands against the Democrat Socialist-Welfare state, out of gratitude or feeling "accepted" or whatnot."

They know this is a LIE. They just want more workers.

What these fools don't realize is that these workers will eat THEM. The socialist state and it's constituents are never happy, never sated until it collapses.

Posted by: blindside1973 at December 22, 2015 04:09 PM (Hh9wy)

419 "That's a lot of damn debt we are going into so you can feel morally smug
about being 'nice'... especially at a time when LESS Americans are
working as a percentage than any other time in the last 40 years..."

What are you talking about? Americans out of work in record numbers? You must be smoking something.

Paul Ryan was assuring us all just last week that there were severe labor shortages. That's why the Beltway GOP had to ram through massive new immigration and H-visa quotas in their omnibus budget bill.

Surely you're not suggesting that Ryan and his caucus are all a pack of lying shitweasels?

Posted by: torquewrench at December 22, 2015 04:09 PM (noWW6)

420 Posted by: chemjeff at December 22, 2015 04:05 PM (uZNvH)

Enemy of the State

Posted by: Mikey NTH - Save the Wails at the Outrage Outlet! at December 22, 2015 04:09 PM (hLRSq)

421 Would somebody like Trump be an ideal President. No. But just perhaps, hes what we need at this time.
Posted by: fixerupper at December 22, 2015 03:03 PM (8XRCm)

^^^^^!

Posted by: 98ZJUSMC Staring at the Lake in the Rain at December 22, 2015 04:11 PM (9d6yS)

422 Surely you're not suggesting that Ryan and his caucus are all a pack of lying shitweasels?

Posted by: torquewrench at December 22, 2015 04:09 PM (noWW6

Yes, we are

Posted by: Misanthropic Humanitarian, Bamboozled by love at December 22, 2015 04:11 PM (voOPb)

423 So...we can ban immigrants, or we could fix the system.

Obviously the best solution is to fix the system. People gaming the system for maximum benefits on the dole isn't unique to immigrants.

Posted by: chemjeff at December 22, 2015 04:12 PM (uZNvH)

424 @395 Rhomboid
"Amnesty is the most transparently and indefensibly irresponsible and unworkable policy proposed in my lifetime."

Agreed. If he does nothing else Trump has gotten focus on the Point #1: Illegals have no right to be here and no right to get anything. He's also gotten focus on Point #2: we're not powerless to do something about #2.

Posted by: Ignoramus at December 22, 2015 04:12 PM (r1fLd)

425 Whoa. The conditions in the Isamic refugee camps is worse than I thought. Refugees in Paris are rioting because they have no wifi. From Drudge.

Next crisis: bandwidth.

This one time, in bandwidth camp...........

Posted by: I don't see what I did there at December 22, 2015 04:12 PM (326rv)

426
and not based on "irrational fear"
let us discuss more this notion you have of "irrational" fear . . .

Posted by: sanberdoo at December 22, 2015 04:12 PM (JTwsP)

427 By the way now one I know is talking about banning immigrants? Who the fuck is peddling that Bullshit

Posted by: Nevergiveup at December 22, 2015 04:13 PM (gf8BH)

428 Nood.

Posted by: BackwardsBoy at December 22, 2015 04:13 PM (LUgeY)

429 The candidate we deserve, or the candidate we need right now?

Posted by: Brother Cavil, down with Eph 6:12-13 at December 22, 2015 04:14 PM (9krrF)

430 OT-

The Hillary campaign was making fun of Trump's hat. They wanted people to submit different words for a "America" and "Great" for a hat for Hillary. See the winning entries here as well as a funny slap on the Miss Universe pageant:

http://preview.tinyurl.com/gmafkg2

Posted by: FenelonSpoke at December 22, 2015 04:14 PM (qES5k)

431 Whoa. The conditions in the Isamic refugee camps is worse than I thought. Refugees in Paris are rioting because they have no wifi. From Drudge.

Next crisis: bandwidth.

This one time, in bandwidth camp...........

Have you ever tried to recruit for jihad with a 300 baud modem and dial up?

Posted by: rickb223 at December 22, 2015 04:14 PM (LO5Qy)

432 Holy shit. "Fix the system."

The system isnt broken. The will to follow the system is.

Follow the damn system and the problems go away.

The only thing thats broken is the immigration system gets in the way of the Democrats autoerotica about importing a whole new permanent voting underclass thats chained to a never ending line of entitlements provided by the same Democrats.

Posted by: fixerupper at December 22, 2015 04:15 PM (8XRCm)

433 I think it's time we reconsider having everyone go to college. It's a bad idea and leads to educated idiots voting for folks that have nice pant creases.

We need to change the laws so that businesses can consider things like previous job performance.

Posted by: Notsothoreau at December 22, 2015 04:15 PM (Lqy/e)

434 Getting late to this party, was listening to Dana Loesch on way home and she was reading state department stats. Out of 230 some " Syrians" 1 Christian and all the others were MUZZIES

Posted by: Skip at December 22, 2015 04:17 PM (k0xxN)

435 but I have to say that I've never heard "schlong" used as a verb.

In college, we used "schlonging" and "schlonged" in terms of sports victories. (This was back in the 1980s, East Coast.) I honestly never thought of it in purely sexual terms, any more than "f*cking someone over" or "getting boned" have. I would have said it in front of my parents.

I can't say I've heard it since then, but not a lot of quasi-Yiddishisms here in AZ.

Posted by: jakeman at December 22, 2015 04:18 PM (sx0vK)

436 What happened to my itals??

Posted by: jakeman at December 22, 2015 04:19 PM (sx0vK)

437
willowed, but chemjeff, you asked the wrong question since your premises contain errors themselves.

"Immigration" is an absolutely discretionary thing, *only* practiced systematically on a large scale by a few countries in history, for select periods of their own national histories. It's not a moral obligation or an economic positive, ipso facto. Not even close. In many cases, incl. the US at the moment, quite the contrary.

Your reference to "irrational fear" seems toindicate aspecific and baseless misunderstanding of the situation with regard to security as an issue.

And you left out huge and valid reasons for a policy of less or no immigration. Cultural change (lack of assimilation) being the most obvious.See the UKfor a very appropriate and devastatingly negative analogy.

Posted by: rhomboid at December 22, 2015 04:20 PM (QDnY+)

438 I've heard a new meme that GOP is now an acronym for "Government's Other Party"

I'm more convinced now than ever that any "partisan bickering" or elections for that matter are analogous to the trash talking before a pro wrestling match.

Apologies to the pro wrestlers for impugning their credibility with that analogy

Posted by: kbdabear at December 22, 2015 04:21 PM (GrXXa)

439 Well, Bill Kristol said they should start a new party if Trump is nominated.

Really? What's the symbol of this new party? A deck chair and a watercress sandwich?

Posted by: Dack Thrombosis at December 22, 2015 04:23 PM (4ErVI)

440 The dems are the mugger that is beating the shit out of you and hasn't yet gotten all of you money.

The republicans are the idiot 20 feet away not helping out but getting it all on his camera phone.

one is dangerous, the other is worthless.

Posted by: Lemmiwinks at December 22, 2015 04:25 PM (z+4T3)

441 I visit this website everyday, several times a day. I rarely comment. Here's a few thoughts I'd love to hear some feedback on.

1.) We are in an unreported great depression. If there were no food stamp debit cards and instead there were soup kitchens as there were in the 30s, we'd see the extent of the current economic crisis. Instead it's all hidden from the public's eye. And this is not the only way in which public assistance is not observable. The real unemployment rate is as great, or greater, than in the 1930s.

2.) No one, and I mean no (that I'm aware of) in politics is even discussing how to actually, eventually, maybe, someday, pay down the deficit (I mean an actual, realistic plan). This tells me that truly, "At this point what difference does it make." There is no hope for fiscal sanity because the AMERICAN PEOPLE do not care about fiscal responsibility. The majority SAY they do, but not really. They vote, overall, for mo money, mo gommint.

3.) The democrats and GOPe have won. The American people elected Obama TWICE. Americans today do not care about the things Americans did 20, 30 years ago. When I first heard the Obama had attended Jeremiah Wright's "church" for twenty plus years, and Wright said, "Not God Bless America, but ...." I honesty believed America would not elect such a man. I thought Obama's goose was cooked. Then I learned that Americans were no longer the people I thought they were. We are done. It's over. The GOP is no longer a party of opposition. There is no effective opposition.

4.) The solution is to destroy the GOP and start anew. Vote every republican out of office. Every single one. Vote for someone other than the incumbent Republic in every House and Senate race (preferably a Tea Party candidate, but if not then hold your nose and vote democrat). Get rid of this filth. MAKE THEM ALL PAY.

5. Have a haze gray, underway, Navy day everyone!

Posted by: Andy in FL at December 22, 2015 04:31 PM (9mfzD)

442 To get the Hispanic vote you need a swinging dick macho candidate, not a clintonian nice guy who tries to appeal to Jewish women with his sensitivity

Posted by: Jihadi at December 22, 2015 04:38 PM (lt+dE)

443 weft, where's the pdf?

374 PDF warning!

Here's the 83% I referenced above

Posted by: AoSHQ Concern Desk at December 22, 2015 03:55 PM (9YDUz)

Posted by: m at December 22, 2015 04:49 PM (d4uu4)

444 never mind; it's in your nic

PDF warning!
Posted by: AoSHQ Concern Desk at December 22, 2015 03:55 PM (9YDUz)

Posted by: m at December 22, 2015 04:50 PM (d4uu4)

445 Ace may be right that the "consultant class" (to the extent such a thing is a definable group of people with coherent, shared interests) is wrong about the GOP's ability to win over Hispanic voters by compromising on immigration.

But, I wouldn't attribute their views to a desire to fit in at urbane cocktail parties. These elite are rich, successful people. Their immigration plans align with their self-interest, which is the perpetuation of the GOP as a big tent, nationally competitive party in the near term. This is their real financial interest, and trumps any personal policy preference.

Here's the consultant class' thinking, distilled: the GOP base is too old and too white, and this trend only worsens over time, threatening the party's ability to win national elections. The solution to this problem is to make inroads with Hispanic voters, who have some indicia of susceptibility to Republican causes (Catholic, upwardly mobile, small business owners, etc.), and one of the ways of doing so is to reform the immigration process, thus lessening the GOP's (partially earned) reputation as the unwelcoming, grumpy, old white party.

None of this strikes me as crazy stupid. Even if it were, chalking it up to the desire of the "consultant class" to gain acceptance at a fictional Georgetown soiree strikes me as demagoguery and akin a refusal to engage the topic of demographic trends and their effect on the outcome of national elections. I'm much more interested in a competing plan to win over the national electorate that isn't based on the hope that the Reagan electorate will suddenly re-emerge if the Republican candidate makes the correct invocations on the campaign trail.

Posted by: gts109 at December 22, 2015 05:11 PM (KIvt1)

446 His 300 word coda is half-populist, half liberal mush. There are some nuggets in there that you can see Trump pushing in his mid-class appeal (tax cuts targeted downrange from the 1%, no interference with middle-class entitlements) but I think Trump's "wing" is interested in shrinking government in the cowboy poetry sense, reining in student loans, welfare costs, and deregulating in general. It's a matter of what to start cutting first, not a matter of being OK with Big Government as long as it benefits them. It's hard to sell entitlement reform for the middle class with Social Security cuts and Medicare reform when ACORN-size abuse is perpetrated for the poor and and Wall Street is getting bailed out. It's a question of fairly sharing the burden not straight up NIMBY-ness on the part of the middle class.

Posted by: SocietyIs2Blame at December 22, 2015 05:16 PM (RtG9B)

447 Sorry gts109, but get real. The GOP does not win Hispandering contests.

Posted by: Curmudgeon at December 22, 2015 05:17 PM (GsebS)

448 Why do people act as if there are only two alternatives? Full citizenship or mass deportation? These are the extremes; both should be off the table for sensible people.

Meanwhile, all the Ewoks are dead; every single one: http://www.techinsider.io/endor-holocaust-star-wars-science-physics-2015-12

Posted by: Adjoran at December 22, 2015 05:22 PM (QIQ6j)

449 As for the "demographics" claims that the GOP must Hispander, those claims simply ignore a much stronger Rule Of Politics: The Rule of Addition to coalitions vs. Subtraction from coalitions.

Let's think about this: How many of those pro-amnesty, and leftist already, Latino voters will suddenly switch their votes to Republicans once the GOP has become milquetoast like Jeb Bush on this issue? Answer: NONE. Zip. Nada. Zilch. They are already leftist on a whole host of other issues.

Now, here's a followup question: how many of that percent of the electorate who support the real GOP candidates (Trump, Cruz, and at least several others) because of their border security position are going to stay with the GOP once the Jebbie Bush wing of the Grand Old Party has repudiated them? Answer: Not many. They will stay home, or go 3rd party in disgust.

Result: Republicans alienate a sizeable bloc of people, a bloc *much larger* than the ballyhooed Latino one, and pick up no one!

It is important in politics to know the difference between addition and subtraction. Addition is what creates majorities and subtraction is what destroys them. In this single "purge the border security movement" exercise, the GOP "moderates" who follow this "advice", alienate a sizeable percent of the entire American electorate from their vote--and add little or nothing to it.

Now, repeat this process on every other so-called social issue, and tell me if we will be better off or worse off for taking this advice.

Ironically, the issues where most Latino voters do agree with Republicans--quite strongly at that--ARE the social issues, like "gay marriage" -- but of course, we're told by the same "experts" that we should repudiate our position on these "messy social issues". Does THAT make any sense?

No, it simply does not.

Posted by: Curmudgeon at December 22, 2015 05:23 PM (GsebS)

450 Which GOP candidate has ever been in favor of open borders?

Posted by: Romeo at December 22, 2015 05:24 PM (5k8rG)

451 Ok, Curmudgeon, let's assume you're right. How does the GOP fix its demographic problems then? The GOP candidates that you would say are squishy on immigration (Jeb and Rubio) are worried about the problem, at least. But I haven't heard a lot of thoughtful analysis from the Trump people about how the demographic problem is solved (or mitigated). It's a real issue. I think serious candidates ought to see that and address it somehow.

Posted by: gts109 at December 22, 2015 05:24 PM (KIvt1)

452 Ace, why not say what YOU really mean, which is mass deportation?

Posted by: Uncle Fabio at December 22, 2015 05:26 PM (Dwe7n)

453 Your subsequent post tries to address the problem. I agree with some of what you say (particularly on the social issues), but I've yet to see convincing empirical analysis supporting your claim that sticking to the Trump or Cruz agenda will succeed in a general election. 2016 may be a great experiment in that regard.

Posted by: gts109 at December 22, 2015 05:28 PM (KIvt1)

454 Ok, Curmudgeon, let's assume you're right. How does the GOP fix its demographic problems then? The GOP candidates that you would say are squishy on immigration (Jeb and Rubio) are worried about the problem, at least. But I haven't heard a lot of thoughtful analysis from the Trump people about how the demographic problem is solved (or mitigated). It's a real issue. I think serious candidates ought to see that and address it somehow.

Posted by: gts109 at December 22, 2015 05:24 PM (KIvt1)

How to solve? A little moratorium on immigration, like we had from 1921 to 1965. NOTE: During that period, we STILL had millions of immigrants, but much less than 1890-1921, and at a manageable level. This gives time for assimilation to actually happen, and if we purged the 5th columnists from academia and the media who hamper this, it would happen faster.

We are being sold this bill of goods that we need an ever larger workforce. (1) But in an increasingly automated world, I don't buy it and (2) certain immigration waves can be quite troublesome indeed. After all, gangsters and Mafiosi came from the floodtide of immigration 1890-1921.

Posted by: Curmudgeon at December 22, 2015 05:32 PM (GsebS)

455 "The solution to this problem is to make inroads with Hispanic voters,
who have some indicia of susceptibility to Republican causes (Catholic,
upwardly mobile, small business owners, etc.)"

Except that they still vote 4/1 Democrat, on a steepening curve in successive generations. Four steps back, one forward isn't going to solve any party's problems. This is the same false hope Merkel's people are counting on for immigration in Europe. It's hastening their dispossession, not broadening their base.

Posted by: SocietyIs2Blame at December 22, 2015 05:33 PM (RtG9B)

456 450 Which GOP candidate has ever been in favor of open borders?

Posted by: Romeo at December 22, 2015 05:24 PM (5k8rG)

The ones we endorse!

Posted by: Wall Street Journal elites at December 22, 2015 05:37 PM (GsebS)

457 I'm fine with restricting immigration going forward, but that will not abate the demographic changes that I'm referring to. The country is going to get less white no matter what level of immigration we allow tomorrow. The GOP has to figure out a way to appeal to a broader base of non-white voters in order to thrive nationally in the future. That's the claim, at least, and judging by recent presidential elections, it's correct.

Posted by: gts109 at December 22, 2015 05:41 PM (KIvt1)

458 "The GOP candidates that you would say are squishy on immigration (Jeb and Rubio) are worried about the problem, at least. But I haven't heard a lot of thoughtful analysis from the Trump people about how the demographic problem is solved (or mitigated)."

Our problem isn't shrinking population (as in the EU), it's shrinking numbers of right-wing people.

School reform first - our potential new membership is being subverted from nursery school on up (sharing is caring, don't fight, don't judge, worship the Other, loathe your own culture). Second, fight the culture war with alternative media to keep reinforcing an alternative message - culture/media are a close second to education in swelling the Left and shrinking the Right. Immigration is a third arena - control numbers of imported Leftists (e.g. Muslims who vote overwhelmingly Leftist because they're the Others being fetishized).

It's going to take time. There is no quick fix, certainly not one to be found in importing "conservative-susceptible" unicorns from other cultures. Other than small populations from Eastern Europe who get capitalism (and have been under the Leftist conformist boot before), there are no populations on Earth who trend majority conservative, thus no suitable immigrant pool to swell our ranks. It's a siren song - heed it and hasten your own demise.

Posted by: SocietyIs2Blame at December 22, 2015 05:45 PM (RtG9B)

459 457 I'm fine with restricting immigration going forward, but that will not abate the demographic changes that I'm referring to. The country is going to get less white no matter what level of immigration we allow tomorrow. The GOP has to figure out a way to appeal to a broader base of non-white voters in order to thrive nationally in the future. That's the claim, at least, and judging by recent presidential elections, it's correct.

Posted by: gts109 at December 22, 2015 05:41 PM (KIvt1)

Given home much of this New Black Militancy is palpably anti-Asian and anti-Semitic, I would hope someone in the GOP would try with those two ethnic groups.

Sadly, all too many Jewish Americans are mindlessly marinated in liberalism, and all too many Asian Americans are in the fever swamps of academia. (Where is a HUAC and a sober Tailgunner Joe when we need them?)

But if the Demunists are going to go black militant, and given their canonization of Saint Mikey of the Swisher Sweets and all the Big Lies told about him, the palpable anti-Asian and anti-Semitic hatreds of the militants can only be exploited.

Posted by: Wall Street Journal elites at December 22, 2015 05:47 PM (GsebS)

460 SocietyIs2Blame, these are good points, and I agree with them. But I think that they need to be focused on winning over some minority groups (or at least doing better with them) than the GOP previously has. Or, we're going to be stuck with a Dem prez and a GOP house for a long time.

Posted by: gts109 at December 22, 2015 05:48 PM (KIvt1)

461 Sock off, ugh!

Posted by: Curmudgeon at December 22, 2015 05:49 PM (GsebS)

462 "Sadly, all too many Jewish Americans are mindlessly marinated in
liberalism, and all too many Asian Americans are in the fever swamps of
academia. (Where is a HUAC and a sober Tailgunner Joe when we need
them?)"

Jews don't have the numbers - they punch above their weight success and influence wise but only 2% of population in addition to entrenched Leftism in their culture. Asians are 5-6% of population - better prospects, but still not that numerous. Blacks and Hispanics have numbers, but hostile to small government, market economics and colorblind rhetoric.

Turning out the disheartened, demoralized White voters will still get you more numbers than the "reachable" minority voters. Trump's appeal among non-college educated Whites shows it's a viable strategy, but it requires goring some sacred cows to reach them - including a willingness to openly appeal to Whites while being called Hitler for it every 5 seconds.

Posted by: SocietyIs2Blame at December 22, 2015 05:58 PM (RtG9B)

463 Jews don't have the numbers - they punch above their weight success and influence wise but only 2% of population in addition to entrenched Leftism in their culture. Asians are 5-6% of population - better prospects, but still not that numerous. Blacks and Hispanics have numbers, but hostile to small government, market economics and colorblind rhetoric.

Turning out the disheartened, demoralized White voters will still get you more numbers than the "reachable" minority voters. Trump's appeal among non-college educated Whites shows it's a viable strategy, but it requires goring some sacred cows to reach them - including a willingness to openly appeal to Whites while being called Hitler for it every 5 seconds.

I agree, but it wouldn't hurt to leaven the White bread with Asian and Jewish ingredients, particularly as the Commiecrats go full Black Militant. After all, "neocon" Jews were former leftists who got mugged by reality....

Posted by: Curmudgeon at December 22, 2015 06:01 PM (GsebS)

464 "But I think that they need to be focused on winning over some minority
groups (or at least doing better with them) than the GOP previously has."

If you could do it without pandering, workable, but for every "reachable" minority voter the GOP has picked up through it's previous ham-fisted "outreach" it's lost more existing voters - net loss overall.

W at best pulled 40% of Hispanics for a high-water mark (and that figure is very much debated). Romney would have needed 70% of Hispanics to win. He only needed 4% more whites, and I'd argue that the GOP could pull 80% of Whites on a regular basis given the anti-White polarization on the Left. But it would take a willingness to do "white outreach" while getting mau-mau'd.

That's how the Democrats backed the GOP into a downward demographic spiral - bogeyman them away from white appeal while expanding their own numbers via the aforementioned avenues.

Posted by: SocietyIs2Blame at December 22, 2015 06:04 PM (RtG9B)

465 Curmudgeon, if I had to pick a minority to appeal to, I'd say Blacks are the best bet - they're yesterday's flavor for the Democrats now and increasingly aware of it. Native Blacks, not immigrants. Look at how Coulter sets it up in "Adios America" - straight up nativist, anti-immigration appeal to Whites and Blacks who together have been here for 400 years. Marry that America First message with pro-working class policies like (gasp!) protectionism, tax reform and an immigration moratorium and you might have something. I think we'll be surprised how much appeal Trump has to native minorities in general, particularly young blacks, in the end analysis.

Posted by: SocietyIs2Blame at December 22, 2015 06:11 PM (RtG9B)

466 465 Curmudgeon, if I had to pick a minority to appeal to, I'd say Blacks are the best bet - they're yesterday's flavor for the Democrats now and increasingly aware of it. Native Blacks, not immigrants. Look at how Coulter sets it up in "Adios America" - straight up nativist, anti-immigration appeal to Whites and Blacks who together have been here for 400 years. Marry that America First message with pro-working class policies like (gasp!) protectionism, tax reform and an immigration moratorium and you might have something. I think we'll be surprised how much appeal Trump has to native minorities in general, particularly young blacks, in the end analysis.

Posted by: SocietyIs2Blame at December 22, 2015 06:11 PM (RtG9B)

Really? Because from burning Koreatown down, to OJ Simpson's acquittals, to the disgusting Big Lies propagated about "Saint" Mikey Brown even in the face of real forensic evidence, I sadly have written most of them off.

It is true they are not happy about immigration, and CA governor Pete Wilson TRIPLED or even quadrupled the GOP African American vote from 10% to 30% when he raised the immigration issue back in 1994.

Posted by: Curmudgeon at December 22, 2015 06:20 PM (GsebS)

467 David Frum has always been a tool.

Posted by: Funeralguy at December 22, 2015 09:37 PM (p0zHt)

468 some of the shittiest, least informed Catholics on this planet are hispanics. All they care about is shaking down St.Vincent de Paul charity for money.

Posted by: Nora at December 22, 2015 09:42 PM (oIpZG)

469 442 To get the Hispanic vote you need a swinging dick macho candidate, not a clintonian nice guy who tries to appeal to Jewish women with his sensitivity

Posted by: Jihadi at December 22, 2015 04:38 PM (lt+dE)

I don't get it. Obama won the Hispanic vote twice, and he's not a swinging dick macho candidate. He's a purported "nice guy" who pretty much swept the Jewish women's vote with his purported "sensitivity."

Posted by: Joshua K. at December 22, 2015 11:16 PM (swOuh)

470 For those of you who don't know, my father appeared in Dinesh D'Souza's movie 2016: Obama's America. He was one of the old Kenyans interviewed.

I was supposed to be in the movie, but I ended up on the cutting room floor. In hindsight, this was a blessing, especially after I saw what happened to Dr. D'Souza.

Posted by: baldilocks at December 27, 2015 10:26 AM (ys2UW)

471 Oops wrong thread.

Posted by: baldilocks at December 27, 2015 10:27 AM (ys2UW)

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