The Morning Rant: Minimalist Edition

The current brouhaha over tariffs is amusing and unfortunately a bit embarrassing, since the idea of tariffs to strengthen the American economy has been around practically since the founding of our republic. Any student of American history will recall Henry Clay, John C. Calhoun and John Quincy Adams being supporters of "The American System," which as one of its tenets had high tariffs to protect American industry.

And the British were big fans two centuries before, so it is not some new and shocking idea, whatever CNBC and the Democrat smear campaign may have us think.

The only question that matters is: Is it good for America?

Should we compete on a level pricing playing field when the Chinese and others use slave labor to manufacture goods that they then sell to America? Or when pricing is dictated by the governments not on the basis of economics but on the basis of geopolitics?

But there is a sound argument against tariffs, and here is Cafe Hayek with a fine counter to any tariffs that disturb the relationship between supply and demand.

Yet too often when buyers shift some of their patronage from domestic producers to foreign producers, domestic producers – both firm owners and workers – insist that the state is morally obliged to force buyers to continue to purchase their products and their labor without any reduction in the prices and wages charged by sellers. These producers greedily and falsely insist that it’s bad policy for the state to allow buyers to shift their patronage to other sellers. Because those other sellers happen to be located abroad – or in the case of immigrants happen not to have passports issued by the domestic sovereign – such greedy and false insistence by domestic producers and workers is remarkably seen as legitimate, despite the fact that there’s nothing remotely legitimate about such insistence.
Tariffs and other forms of ‘protectionism’ are means of forcing buyers to act and to pay as if they agreed to terms of contracts with sellers that these buyers never agreed to and that the sellers who benefit from the protectionism were unwilling to pay for in their contractual dealings with their customers.
Protectionism is akin to changing the rules of a game in the middle of a game. It’s unfair. It’s unproductive. It’s theft wrapped in flags, and too-often faux-sanctified by specious theorizing.

The economic argument against tariffs is clear and unambiguous and damning. It's clearly not just economics though, so the question needs to be answered holistically. Tariffs have been the catalyst for war far too often to ignore how volatile they can make foreign policy. But the use of pricing power to weaken the American economy is also unacceptable, and can be reasonably seen as the first shot in a war.

******
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Posted by: CBD at 11:00 AM

Comments

(Jump to bottom of comments)

1 In early --

Posted by: Wolfus Aurelius at May 14, 2019 11:00 AM (elsTe)

2 not first

Posted by: TheJamesMadison, Read Some Movie Thoughts at May 14, 2019 11:01 AM (9cans)

3 So here we are.

Posted by: mindful webworker - click for vids at May 14, 2019 11:01 AM (gB+8C)

4 th

Posted by: FrodoB at May 14, 2019 11:02 AM (ctEmO)

5 Free trade is nice, except when your trading nations use slave labor, and enact tariffs on incoming goods.

Posted by: Vashta Nerada at May 14, 2019 11:02 AM (YslsA)

6 TOP 10

Posted by: SturmToddler at May 14, 2019 11:03 AM (8D42x)

7 5 Free trade is nice, except when your trading nations use slave labor, and enact tariffs on incoming goods

Exactly...

Posted by: It's me donna at May 14, 2019 11:03 AM (O2RFr)

8 Top 20?

Posted by: Surfperch at May 14, 2019 11:03 AM (JODDm)

9 I'm 'America First' when it comes to tariffs. If it benefits the country and our citizens, I'm in favor of it.

I have not been a fan of NAFTA and the constant flood of outsourcing and loss of mfg jobs.

Posted by: Mark Andrew Edwards, Angry, Radical, Anti-Liberal, and Dangerous: buy ammo at May 14, 2019 11:03 AM (bcbK8)

10 If the Chinese dislike it, that in itself is a good reason to do it.

Posted by: Wolfus Aurelius at May 14, 2019 11:03 AM (elsTe)

11 >>except when your trading nations use slave labor, and enact tariffs on incoming goods. Posted by: Vashta Nerada at May 14, 2019 11:02 AM (YslsA)

1. Reintroduce U.S. slavery.
2. Incoming tariffs.

Beat the Chinese at their own game.

Posted by: Zod at May 14, 2019 11:04 AM (Bdeb0)

12 Free trade is nice, except when your trading nations use slave labor,
Posted by: Vashta Nerada

and have no OSHA standards.

Posted by: rickb223 at May 14, 2019 11:04 AM (F8EBp)

13 Not all taxes are equal. Import tariffs and duties are better than income taxes. Just ask the Founders.

Posted by: Grump928(C) at May 14, 2019 11:05 AM (iSh8b)

14 >>If it benefits the country and our citizens, I'm in favor of it.
Posted by: Mark Andrew Edwards, Angry, Radical, Anti-Liberal, and Dangerous: buy ammo at May 14, 2019 11:03 AM (bcbK

Zod appreciates your endorsement of his plan at #11.

Posted by: Zod at May 14, 2019 11:05 AM (Bdeb0)

15 FIRST!!!!!

Posted by: Sponge at May 14, 2019 11:05 AM (IXZGh)

16 12 Free trade is nice, except when your trading nations use slave labor,
Posted by: Vashta Nerada

and have no OSHA standards.
Posted by: rickb223 at May 14, 2019 11:04 AM (F8EBp)

Or environmental regulations.

Posted by: Insomniac at May 14, 2019 11:05 AM (NWiLs)

17 @LauraAJarrett

Some news - AG Barr working closely with CIA Director Haspel, ODNI Director Coats and FBI Director Wray on surveillance issues related to Trump campaign - suggesting broader interagency effort underway

@LauraAJarrett

US Attorney Durham working with Barr on a 360 degree review of the situation, so what's US Attorney Huber doing? Told he's been in a holding pattern as the DOJ IG completes review of the situation surrounding Carter Page surveillance warrant - his work on Clinton wrapping soon.

(This is a CNN reporter)

Posted by: Tami at May 14, 2019 11:05 AM (cF8AT)

18 Sponge!

Posted by: OregonMuse. AoSHQ Thought Leader & Pants Monitor at May 14, 2019 11:05 AM (fhFbZ)

19 One of the purposes of NAFTA was to keep Mexican labor in Mexico. Epic fail on that one.

Posted by: Grump928(C) at May 14, 2019 11:05 AM (iSh8b)

20 NAFTA basically ruined the heavy manufacturing industry in the United States.

Posted by: The Great White Scotsman at May 14, 2019 11:05 AM (JUOKG)

21 (This is a CNN reporter)

We all know her momma

Posted by: It's me donna at May 14, 2019 11:06 AM (O2RFr)

22 We're more damned if we don't than we are if we do. In a perfect world, everyone would compete on a level playing field. China does everything in its power to tilt the field in its favor. To not use the instrumentalities of the state to re-level it is just to meekly accept getting plowed under by slave labor, currency manipulation, subsidized dumping, and China's own tariffs and bans on US goods.

I'd rather risk a war than meekly accept the slow economic strangulation of the greatest nation the world has ever known.

Posted by: Cato, Media Delenda Est at May 14, 2019 11:06 AM (J+mig)

23 >>OSHA

Sinclair Lewis was a pussy. The price of beating Chinese prices of sausage is the awareness that the odd worker is going to fall into the grinder.

This is acceptable.

Posted by: Zod at May 14, 2019 11:06 AM (Bdeb0)

24
Permanent tariffs erected to wall out competition for a particular economic sector. Not Good.

Tariffs erected to compel renewed negotiations for other nation states that have been buggering our industries in the arse for decades. TWO THUMBS UP..

Posted by: fixerupper at May 14, 2019 11:06 AM (vIjh1)

25 Willowed but did want to note that NYC quit dumping trash in the ocean in the 30's before there was plastic.

Posted by: Can't resist temptation at May 14, 2019 11:06 AM (lmPMy)

26 As for 'Cafe Hayek'*, the free market is not a suicide pact. I think Adam Smith, pbuh, would agree. I don't care about 'unfair'. I want shit slanted in my favor. If Trump can pull it off, then he 'played the game' better than the Chinese or Mexicans or Philippines et al.

*LOL wut?

Posted by: Mark Andrew Edwards, Angry, Radical, Anti-Liberal, and Dangerous: buy ammo at May 14, 2019 11:06 AM (bcbK8)

27 Tariffs have been the catalyst for war far too often to ignore how volatile they can make foreign policy.

That, sir, is a very good statement.

Posted by: Diogenes at May 14, 2019 11:06 AM (0tfLf)

28 The highlighted Tariff stuff has to be an academic not a producer.

I wonder if they have thoughts on Utopia?

Posted by: nip at May 14, 2019 11:07 AM (DfGpI)

29 mr ratburn is now ghey and getting married on the children's show "arthur" do they have to ruin everything?

Posted by: phoenixgirl at May 14, 2019 11:07 AM (0O7c5)

30

GAZA CITY, Gaza Strip (AP) - Palestinian singers are protesting Israel's hosting of the Eurovision song contest by performing on the rubble of a building destroyed in recent fighting in the Gaza Strip.

Several dozen people attended the concert Tuesday alongside the ruins of the multistory al-Qamar building in Gaza City that Israeli planes leveled in an airstrike during fighting with Gaza militants earlier this month.

Israel is hosting the Eurovision song contest in Tel Aviv, and is set to hold the first semi-final round of performances Tuesday evening.

Somaya Khatry, one of the Gaza event's organizers, said it was aimed at delivering "the image of Gaza that reflects the (bad) face of Israel and its racist and aggressive occupation."

Posted by: Bertram Cabot, Jr. at May 14, 2019 11:07 AM (aKsyK)

31 Free trade is nice, except when your trading nations use slave labor, and enact tariffs on incoming goods.

Posted by: Vashta Nerada at May 14, 2019 11:02 AM (YslsA)

Yeah, it's both selfish and ignorant to pretend we're not already in a trade war, and have been in one for decades.

I'm not going to jump on the blame game, except to say that Clinton was VERY instrumental in fundamentally changing the economic relationship between the US and China, and while it has given us many many cheap goods, I think the evidence is far from conclusive that consumers have benefited. I'm sure importers have greatly benefited from it, and they do tend to be louder voices than most in this "conversation," but that's just more globallist CoC caterwalling, when they howl about how awful tariffs are.

Posted by: BurtTC at May 14, 2019 11:07 AM (a2xio)

32 fine counter to any tariffs that disturb the relationship between supply and demand."

Agreed. Now when does the 'murrican press go after China for disregarding said relationship?

*crickets*

So here's my free advice to Cafe Hayek - FO.

Posted by: Anon a mouse at May 14, 2019 11:07 AM (6qErC)

33 Some news - AG Barr working closely with CIA Director Haspel, ODNI Director Coats and FBI Director Wray on surveillance issues related to Trump campaign - suggesting broader interagency effort underway

I don't trust any of them,,, except maybe Barr... The jury is still out on him

Posted by: It's me donna at May 14, 2019 11:08 AM (O2RFr)

34 mr ratburn is now ghey and getting married on the children's show "arthur" do they have to ruin everything?
Posted by: phoenixgirl at May 14, 2019 11:07 AM (0O7c5)
-------

Oh no, seriously?

Posted by: bluebell at May 14, 2019 11:08 AM (aXucN)

35 Hayek is using an argument that requires a perfect world. One in which one nation is not attempting to destroy another via economic, or other means.

Tariffs are the only way to fight nations whose government is totalitarian, who uses it's citizens as industrial slaves in order to promote power to it's elites, and is backing that up with military threats.

Posted by: Jen the original at May 14, 2019 11:08 AM (64/ml)

36 21 (This is a CNN reporter)

We all know her momma

Posted by: It's me donna at May 14, 2019 11:06 AM (O2RFr)

Oh shit...didn't even register. BRB need more....something.

Posted by: Tami at May 14, 2019 11:08 AM (cF8AT)

37 I visited a few foundries in China.
These guys were wearing flipflops, shorts and tee shirts.
Buckets of molten steel flying thru the air, through which you could barely see, no safety nothing.
They don't care. If some poor schlub gets crushed, they just go get another one.
So yeah, they have pretty low overhead costs.

Posted by: Roland THTG at May 14, 2019 11:08 AM (88+cf)

38 12 Free trade is nice, except when your trading nations use slave labor,
Posted by: Vashta Nerada

and have no OSHA standards.
Posted by: rickb223 at May 14, 2019 11:04 AM (F8EBp)

Or environmental regulations.
Posted by: Insomniac at May 14, 2019 11:05 AM (NWiLs)

------

Or attorneys suing the shit out of everybody for ransom.

Posted by: fixerupper at May 14, 2019 11:08 AM (vIjh1)

39 US Attorney Durham working with Barr on a 360 degree
review of the situation, so what's US Attorney Huber doing? Told he's
been in a holding pattern as the DOJ IG completes review of the
situation surrounding Carter Page surveillance warrant - his work on
Clinton wrapping soon.

(This is a CNN reporter)

Posted by: Tami at May 14, 2019 11:05 AM

---

Wasn't Huber's investigation more into the shenanigans surrounding hillary's bathroom server?

Posted by: The Great White Scotsman at May 14, 2019 11:08 AM (JUOKG)

40
Tariffs have been the catalyst for war far too often to ignore how volatile they can make foreign policy.

That, sir, is a very good statement.
Posted by: Diogenes

But is it a true statement?

Posted by: Bertram Cabot, Jr. at May 14, 2019 11:08 AM (aKsyK)

41 "The economic argument against tariffs is clear and unambiguous and damning."

and this would be acceptable if, AND ONLY IF, all nations are using the same rules.

however, especially in the case of the Chinese, their market is essentially closed to US goods, and they unfairly undercut US manufacturers. In these sorts of cases, it's right to enact tariffs.

and IF the Chinese come around and open their markets and eliminate their unfair trade practices, then sure, cut our tariffs.

Posted by: SturmToddler at May 14, 2019 11:08 AM (8D42x)

42 The economic argument against tariffs is clear and unambiguous and damning

Sure, but the problem is that the status quo is simply us being jacked around by tariffs from everyone else without doing anything about it to fix that. Trump doesn't want tariffs, he is opposed to them as well. But he wants the USA to be bent over a couch and reamed by other nations even less. And if it takes tariffs and a trade war to fix that, then we're long overdue.

China has been at economic war with the USA for decades, along with cyber war (constant hacking etc). The USA only now is starting to respond under Trump's leadership and this has been needed since the freaking Carter administration.

Posted by: Christopher R Taylor at May 14, 2019 11:08 AM (39g3+)

43 14 >>If it benefits the country and our citizens, I'm in favor of it.
Posted by: Mark Andrew Edwards, Angry, Radical, Anti-Liberal, and Dangerous: buy ammo at May 14, 2019 11:03 AM (bcbK

Zod appreciates your endorsement of his plan at #11.
Posted by: Zod at May 14, 2019 11:05 AM (Bdeb0)

You do think outside the box, Zod.

I'm not a fan of slavery, though. Unless it involves sexy women in bikinis. Because no point in being FOOLISHLY consistent.

Posted by: Mark Andrew Edwards, Angry, Radical, Anti-Liberal, and Dangerous: buy ammo at May 14, 2019 11:08 AM (bcbK8)

44 Tariffs are a weapon. They're not the be all and end all and they're not unreservedly evil. They're a tool in the negotiator's toolbox, to use or not to use as needed. I really don't see a moral aspect to this.

Posted by: joncelli, because somebody had to at May 14, 2019 11:08 AM (RD7QR)

45 Oh no, seriously?

Posted by: bluebell at May 14, 2019 11:08 AM (aXucN)

seriously

Posted by: phoenixgirl at May 14, 2019 11:08 AM (0O7c5)

46 The main case for tariffs tends to be political/power related.

In the case of the US the economy is so large and diversified that further specialization from trade with any given country yields relatively modest benefits. Small economies benefit enormously from trading with large ones but tend to become highly specialized and dependent.

Most small and developing countries might consequently find it desirable to have tariffs to diversify their economy(this is a terrible idea when applied to capital equipment but not so bad in regards to consumer goods).

Posted by: Someguy at May 14, 2019 11:09 AM (sqdLZ)

47 29 mr ratburn is now ghey and getting married on the children's show "arthur" do they have to ruin everything?
..

There is no ghey agenda.

Posted by: HA at May 14, 2019 11:09 AM (MAstk)

48 17 @LauraAJarrett

Some news - AG Barr working closely with CIA Director Haspel, ODNI Director Coats and FBI Director Wray on surveillance issues related to Trump campaign - suggesting broader interagency effort underway

@LauraAJarrett

US Attorney Durham working with Barr on a 360 degree review of the situation, so what's US Attorney Huber doing? Told he's been in a holding pattern as the DOJ IG completes review of the situation surrounding Carter Page surveillance warrant - his work on Clinton wrapping soon.

(This is a CNN reporter)
Posted by: Tami at May 14, 2019 11:05 AM (cF8AT)
---

Welcomed news.

Posted by: WisRich at May 14, 2019 11:09 AM (G0vdT)

49 hiya

Posted by: JT at May 14, 2019 11:10 AM (k2XSm)

50 Somaya Khatry, one of the Gaza event's organizers, said it was aimed at delivering "the image of Gaza that reflects the (bad) face of Israel and its racist and aggressive occupation."

Posted by: Bertram Cabot, Jr. at May 14, 2019 11:07 AM

*****

Gaza's Got Talent!
It's da bomb!

Posted by: Diogenes at May 14, 2019 11:10 AM (0tfLf)

51 >>Wasn't Huber's investigation more into the shenanigans surrounding hillary's bathroom server?

Huber was assigned to work with Horowitz to deal with any illegal activity he uncovered.

Posted by: JackStraw at May 14, 2019 11:10 AM (/tuJf)

52 Sinclair Lewis was a pussy. The price of beating
Chinese prices of sausage is the awareness that the odd worker is going
to fall into the grinder.

This is acceptable.

Posted by: Zod at May 14, 2019 11:06 AM (Bdeb0)

Depending on what that odd worker eats and drinks himself, it might improve the flavor.

Posted by: BurtTC at May 14, 2019 11:10 AM (a2xio)

53 Small economies benefit enormously from trading with large ones but tend to become highly specialized and dependent.

The Walmart Effect.

Posted by: Grump928(C) at May 14, 2019 11:10 AM (iSh8b)

54 US Attorney Durham working with Barr on a 360 degree review of the situation, so what's US Attorney Huber

Heh. I assume she meant a full review but I've never heard some say 360 degree review . To me it means you're back where you started.

Posted by: Can't resist temptation at May 14, 2019 11:10 AM (lmPMy)

55
Gaza's Got Talent!
It's da bomb!

Damn... there's goes my coffee... LOL

Posted by: It's me donna at May 14, 2019 11:10 AM (O2RFr)

56 Hey JT.

Posted by: Insomniac at May 14, 2019 11:11 AM (NWiLs)

57 In response to Caf� Hayek - the USA is a nation with an economy, not the other way around. How much we have in the way of free trade and how much we have in the way of protectionism depends on what is the national interest at that particular time.

This is not an academic argument in ideological theory but reality played out amongst different nations and interests, most of which do not have our well-being at the fore-front.

Posted by: Mikey NTH - Party of One! Personalized Identity Group Kits Now at The Outrage Outlet! at May 14, 2019 11:11 AM (hLRSq)

58 I could use some coffee. And heroin. But I only have coffee. BRB.

Posted by: Insomniac at May 14, 2019 11:11 AM (NWiLs)

59

The economic argument against socialism is clear and unambiguous and damning

Posted by: Bertram Cabot, Jr. at May 14, 2019 11:11 AM (aKsyK)

60 phoenixgirl, that breaks my heart. My kids loved Arthur, both the books and the show, and so did I (although I thought DW was allowed to get away with way too much). I guess my future grandchildren won't be watching the show, and I'm glad I've held on to the old books.

Posted by: bluebell at May 14, 2019 11:11 AM (aXucN)

61 The Eurovision contest has produced some of the most cringe worthy TV in history.

Posted by: sniffybigtoe at May 14, 2019 11:12 AM (1ISKN)

62 When a country has existing factories and can profit through economies of scale, such as England had in the 19th Century and America had for most of the 20th Century, they want NO Tariffs because they need to earn back their sunk costs, and also it costs countries wanting to get in on the game a great deal to build the factories needed and bootstrap their economies.

On the other hand, when you are being outcompeted on cost because other nations now have existing factories and cheaper labor costs (the case the US finds itself in now) you WANT tariffs to protect your own manufacturing base from the (now) cheaper competition. The conflict at this phase is between consumers, who want lower costs, and the factory workforce that is going to be unemployed because of the foreign competition.

It's a mantra to say "just work more efficiently!", but realistically, for example on an item like textiles, there is no way any American worker can out-compete a 9 year old Chinese girl who works 18 hours a day for 12 cents an hour.

So tariffs are the only way a nation can protect itself from that. The only problem I see when tariffs are discussed is that those acknowledging their need often try to gloss over the costs associated with them, when the more honest and correct answer is that Yes, there are going to be costs associated with tariffs that will be borne by the consumer; but those costs are necessary and proper when viewed in the overall picture of what is needed to protect the Country.

Posted by: Tom Servo at May 14, 2019 11:12 AM (Kpl3J)

63 12 Free trade is nice, except when your trading nations use slave labor,
Posted by: Vashta Nerada

and have no OSHA standards.
Posted by: rickb223 at May 14, 2019 11:04 AM (F8EBp)

Sending our manufacturing overseas is also sending our pollution overseas. For some reason, the people who always claim that America "exploits" the Third World don't seem to mind this.

Posted by: rickl at May 14, 2019 11:12 AM (xjiRE)

64 most of which do not have our well-being at the fore-front."

That is the most polite understatement I've seen in a long time. Perfectly stated!

Posted by: Anon a mouse at May 14, 2019 11:12 AM (6qErC)

65 Trump did say something about "buying" the Farmers crops and giving it to poor countries... I bet we would lose less money doing that then the crap trade we have on it with China

Posted by: It's me donna at May 14, 2019 11:13 AM (O2RFr)

66 Tossing this out here for Jack Straw:
https://donsurber.blogspot.com/ 2019/05/fbi-spies-are-toast.html

Remove space.

Also read and laugh.

Fuck the FBI

Posted by: Mark Andrew Edwards, Angry, Radical, Anti-Liberal, and Dangerous: buy ammo at May 14, 2019 11:13 AM (bcbK8)

67 They don't care. If some poor schlub gets crushed, they just go get another one.
So yeah, they have pretty low overhead costs.

Yeah, they keep prices down by treating human life as meaningless. They are an example of what zero regulation looks like, its the other end of the extreme. Yes, you build up your economy rapidly and make people very rich, but at what cost? There's not even a moral culture in China to counter their excesses, corruption and bribery is simply part of life.

Posted by: Christopher R Taylor at May 14, 2019 11:13 AM (39g3+)

68 I thought Teslas were supposed to reduce greenhouse gases.

Another TESLA Spontaneously Catches Fire...

Posted by: Steve Bullock at May 14, 2019 11:13 AM (+y/Ru)

69 They are an example of what zero regulation looks like,"

No, there are plenty of regulations. First one being "The State is All, You are Nothing"... goes on from there.

Posted by: Anon a mouse at May 14, 2019 11:14 AM (6qErC)

70 Durham will be reviled by the Left and the media within the next few hours and declared unacceptable for the job he accepted.

His stellar reputation is about to be nuked.

Posted by: Decaf at May 14, 2019 11:14 AM (PUz4C)

71 Posted by: phoenixgirl at May 14, 2019 11:08 AM (0O7c5)

This time next year Mr. Ratburn will decide he's transgendered and wants to known as Ms. Ratburn.

Posted by: FenelonSpoke at May 14, 2019 11:14 AM (FSPNP)

72 mr ratburn is now ghey and getting married on the children's show "arthur" do they have to ruin everything?
--

Yes, they do.

Deviants feel bad about being deviants, so they want to normalize it so that they feel better about themselves and the fact that they do things that are seen by many as morally wrong.

Posted by: shibumi, still cynical and now married longer than Nicolas Cage! at May 14, 2019 11:14 AM (sktRI)

73 There is little debate that Smoot Hawley did more damage than good. Tariffs are a very tricky and delicate balancing act.

Posted by: Can't resist temptation at May 14, 2019 11:14 AM (lmPMy)

74 phoenixgirl, that breaks my heart. My kids loved Arthur, both the books and the show, and so did I (although I thought DW was allowed to get away with way too much). I guess my future grandchildren won't be watching the show, and I'm glad I've held on to the old books.

Posted by: bluebell at May 14, 2019 11:11 AM

*****

Sheesh.

Next thing you know, Ramona Quimby will be come out as a lesbian. I still have the books my daughter's collected when they were kids.

Posted by: Diogenes at May 14, 2019 11:15 AM (0tfLf)

75 although I thought DW was allowed to get away with way too much

This was my main complaint with the Harry Potter books. Harry broke every rule, ignored every adult, and just did what he wanted, and got away with it except for a stern warning once in a while. And when he finally was punished for something, it was unjust and he didn't do it. That's teaching kids some very wrong lessons.

Posted by: Christopher R Taylor at May 14, 2019 11:15 AM (39g3+)

76 I thought Teslas were supposed to reduce greenhouse gases."

Sure. Put a tesla in a greenhouse, and "presto" - no gasses!

Posted by: Anon a mouse at May 14, 2019 11:15 AM (6qErC)

77 Tariffs are a weapon. They're not the be all and end
all and they're not unreservedly evil. They're a tool in the
negotiator's toolbox, to use or not to use as needed. I really don't see
a moral aspect to this.

Posted by: joncelli, because somebody had to at May 14, 2019 11:08 AM (RD7QR)

I've often argued, with wrathful responses from those who genuflect in front of the altar of Free Trade, that Capitalism is not, in and of itself a moral good.

As with all other human institutions, it requires moral actors to act morally, legally, and ethically. Without standards of behavior, to control the lower elements of human behavior, any and all institutions can be corrupted.

I'm not sure how this isn't perfectly clear, here in good ol' 2019.

Posted by: BurtTC at May 14, 2019 11:15 AM (a2xio)

78 61 The Eurovision contest has produced some of the most cringe worthy TV in history.

indeed. it is an extremely valuable cultural resource.

Posted by: Anachronda at May 14, 2019 11:15 AM (sGtp+)

79 The economic argument against tariffs is clear and unambiguous and damning.

True. However, sometimes there are compelling reasons to use them short-term. We are in such a situation now with China clearly not acting in accordance with its free trade obligations.

If I thought Trump saw tariffs as a permanent feature of economic policy, I'd oppose them, but I'm sure he simply sees them as a lever with which to move the Chinese from their unacceptable behaviors.

I'll reevaluate if they do, and yet Trump keeps the tariffs.

Posted by: pep at May 14, 2019 11:15 AM (wW03z)

80 Level playing field. Very simple. The tariff-haters just won't accommodate that point.

Posted by: Dan Smoot's Apprentice at May 14, 2019 11:16 AM (H8QX8)

81 As for 'Cafe Hayek'*, the free market is not a suicide pact. I think Adam Smith, pbuh, would agree.

Wealth of Nations, Chapter 4, he clearly lays out that tariffs are useful both as retaliatory as well as in order to protect nationally vital industries (in England's case, the shipping industry which provided sailors for the Navy in times of war).

Posted by: Colorado Alex In Exile at May 14, 2019 11:16 AM (SgjGX)

82 Liberals love the idea of paying more to the government in taxes, so why are they upset about import duties that MIGHT temporarily increase the price US consumers pay for goods, with those increases mostly going to US industry (i.e., jobs, capital investment)? Temporary because there is nothing China can produce that US industry and our other trading partners cannot. And there is essentially no impact on the services sector, so beloved of globalists. Looks like win,win, win to me.

Posted by: Ray Van Dune at May 14, 2019 11:16 AM (Dl1nv)

83 No, there are plenty of regulations. First one being "The State is All, You are Nothing"... goes on from there.

Sure, but the richer and more powerful you are, the more you can simply ignore them. In China, if you're in trouble, its just a matter of needing to pay more to certain people. The only ones who suffer are the ones who cannot pay.

And in business, the government simply does not give a damn what happens to people, they have two BILLION to expend on whatever they want and human life has no innate value. As long as you keep that baksheesh rolling, you can do whatever the hell you want.

Posted by: Christopher R Taylor at May 14, 2019 11:17 AM (39g3+)

84 71 Posted by: phoenixgirl at May 14, 2019 11:08 AM (0O7c5)

This time next year Mr. Ratburn will decide he's transgendered and wants to known as Ms. Ratburn.
Posted by: FenelonSpoke at May 14, 2019 11:14 AM (FSPNP)

I believe South Park predicted all this

Posted by: Mark Andrew Edwards, Angry, Radical, Anti-Liberal, and Dangerous: buy ammo at May 14, 2019 11:17 AM (bcbK8)

85 They don't care. If some poor schlub gets crushed, they just go get another one.
So yeah, they have pretty low overhead costs.
--

This is what it used to be like in Detroit in the first auto plants. People would get crushed, they'd remove the body parts-- if required--- and keep the line going. My grandfather saw this several times. That was one of the reasons unions were formed.

/and then, over the years, the unions effed things up, but that's another story.

Posted by: shibumi, still cynical and now married longer than Nicolas Cage! at May 14, 2019 11:17 AM (sktRI)

86 "...buying native products will benefit back the citizens, because native people will have more money to buy product or services from their fellow citizens." - Milton Friedman

Posted by: Archer at May 14, 2019 11:17 AM (gmo/4)

87 "...in England's case, the shipping industry which provided sailors for the Navy in times of war..."

Posted by: Colorado Alex In Exile at May 14, 2019 11:16 AM (SgjGX)

Look up "press gang."

Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo at May 14, 2019 11:17 AM (wYseH)

88 Costly face tattoo removals on the rise as regret sets in...

-
Whoa! Who could've seen that coming?

Posted by: Anonosaurus Wrecks, Tyrannosaur Wrangler at May 14, 2019 11:17 AM (+y/Ru)

89 >>I'm sure he simply sees them as a lever with which to move the Chinese from their unacceptable behaviors.
Posted by: pep at May 14, 2019 11:15 AM (wW03z)

Chinese play long game, outwait Trump, resume fleecing. Is logical.

Posted by: Zod at May 14, 2019 11:18 AM (Bdeb0)

90
The Eurovision contest has produced some of the most cringe worthy TV in history.

I am told by my betters that Europe is the epitome of culture and we benighted colonials must bow before it.

Posted by: Hadrian the Seventh at May 14, 2019 11:18 AM (BWL+E)

91 81 As for 'Cafe Hayek'*, the free market is not a suicide pact. I think Adam Smith, pbuh, would agree.

Wealth of Nations, Chapter 4, he clearly lays out that tariffs are useful both as retaliatory as well as in order to protect nationally vital industries (in England's case, the shipping industry which provided sailors for the Navy in times of war).
Posted by: Colorado Alex In Exile at May 14, 2019 11:16 AM (SgjGX)

Good, someone else has actually READ Adam Smith.

:fistbump:

Posted by: Mark Andrew Edwards, Angry, Radical, Anti-Liberal, and Dangerous: buy ammo at May 14, 2019 11:18 AM (bcbK8)

92 Several dozen people attended the concert Tuesday alongside the ruins of the multistory al-Qamar building in Gaza City that Israeli planes leveled in an airstrike during fighting with Gaza militants earlier this month. "

Offkey, unwashed goat-fuckers standing on top of a trash heap "singing" for a few dozen people.

So, in Gaza, "This is ENTERTAINMENT!!!"

Posted by: Tom Servo at May 14, 2019 11:18 AM (Kpl3J)

93 Are tariffs good?

Short answer: No, with an if.

Long answer: Yes, with a but.

Posted by: josephistan at May 14, 2019 11:18 AM (7HtZB)

94 Posted by: Mark Andrew Edwards, Angry, Radical, Anti-Liberal, and Dangerous: buy ammo at May 14, 2019 11:06 AM (bcbK

My observation, having only read P.J. O'Rourke's digest of Smith's Wealth of Nations, is that when Smith was referring to what ends up being called 'the necessity for cheap labor above all else' what he was really describing was the need for cheap *energy*. Modern observation and experience seems to indicate that cheap oil, preferably under domestic control as a security issue, fulfills much the same role. Honestly, if plenty of cheap human labor was all it took to have a strong economy China and India should be *actual* economic titans instead of the major messes that they are with their only strengths being where they have backed away from socialism/communism and allowed a certain amount of free market to grow.

Posted by: Polliwog the 'Ette at May 14, 2019 11:18 AM (uquGJ)

95 The argument against protectionism only addresses ECONOMIC morality.

It does not address the ideal that a Nation State should ensure that an enemy, or potential enemy, can destroy their economy by STOPPING said commerce.

Or destroy their ability to wage war, by shutting down supplies needed for the military.

Their argument presupposes a World at Peace, something which I don't believe has EVERY actually happened.

Posted by: Don Q at May 14, 2019 11:18 AM (NgKpN)

96 In a drawer somewhere, I still have my button that says (without the redaction):

"F*** Price and Quality - Buy American."

Always loved the snark and the sly in that one.

Posted by: Doctor Deplorable at May 14, 2019 11:18 AM (YIsx4)

97 >>Tossing this out here for Jack Straw:

I was living in Boston when Durham exposed the corruption at the FBI that got the 4 innocent guys conviction overturned and Connolly jailed.

He's a honey badger and he don't give a shit.

Posted by: JackStraw at May 14, 2019 11:18 AM (/tuJf)

98 Deviants feel bad about being deviants, so they want to normalize it so that they feel better about themselves and the fact that they do things that are seen by many as morally wrong.

The same applies to others who do immoral things, like hiring illegal nannies to save money.

Plus then (ages ago!) that might hurt your political aspirations.

Ergo, no more illegal alien definition could be allowed. If there's no such thing as citizenship, the people we have living under the stairs on the cheap are not illegals!

Posted by: BlackOrchid at May 14, 2019 11:18 AM (Rarvo)

99 To sum up

Vashta Nerada:
Free trade is nice, except when your trading nations use slave labor, and enact tariffs on incoming goods.

rickb223:
and have no OSHA standards.

Insomniac:
Or environmental regulations.

fixerupper:
Or attorneys suing the shit out of everybody for ransom.

SturmToddler:

"The economic argument against tariffs is clear and unambiguous and damning."

and this would be acceptable if, AND ONLY IF, all nations are using the same rules.

however, especially in the case of the Chinese, their market is essentially closed to US goods, and they unfairly undercut US manufacturers. In these sorts of cases, it's right to enact tariffs.

and IF the Chinese come around and open their markets and eliminate their unfair trade practices, then sure, cut our tariffs.

Posted by: mindful webworker - click for vids at May 14, 2019 11:18 AM (gB+8C)

100 77 Tariffs are a weapon. They're not the be all and end
all and they're not unreservedly evil. They're a tool in the
negotiator's toolbox, to use or not to use as needed. I really don't see
a moral aspect to this.

Posted by: joncelli, because somebody had to at May 14, 2019 11:08 AM (RD7QR)

I've often argued, with wrathful responses from those who genuflect in front of the altar of Free Trade, that Capitalism is not, in and of itself a moral good.

As with all other human institutions, it requires moral actors to act morally, legally, and ethically. Without standards of behavior, to control the lower elements of human behavior, any and all institutions can be corrupted.

I'm not sure how this isn't perfectly clear, here in good ol' 2019.
Posted by: BurtTC at May 14, 2019 11:15 AM (a2xio)

Okay, let me clarify: a tariff is a tool in the same way that a nail gun is a tool. If you're a moral negotiator or a moral carpenter, they are useful tools that can get useful things done. If you're amoral, they can be used as destructive weapons.

(And now I have a vision of some negotiator wielding a nail gun and yelling "Give us the concession or your balls get nailed to the wall!" But that's just me.)

Posted by: joncelli, because somebody had to at May 14, 2019 11:19 AM (RD7QR)

101 OSHA

Sinclair Lewis was a pussy. The price of beating Chinese prices of sausage is the awareness that the odd worker is going to fall into the grinder.

This is acceptable.

Posted by: Zod at May 14, 2019 11:06 AM (Bdeb0)

so THAT'S how they get the Andouille sausage to be so spicy....

Posted by: SturmToddler at May 14, 2019 11:19 AM (8D42x)

102 If I thought Trump saw tariffs as a permanent feature of economic policy, I'd oppose them, but I'm sure he simply sees them as a lever with which to move the Chinese from their unacceptable behaviors.

And he has said many times he wants tariffs to be zero, but only if its on both sides. He's not an economic idiot, he knows all this stuff, probably a lot more than the academics. He's felt the practical side. I just can't help but think of the scene in Back to School where Rodney Dangerfield schools the econ prof on what its like to really run a business in the real world.

https://youtu.be/YlVDGmjz7eM

Posted by: Christopher R Taylor at May 14, 2019 11:19 AM (39g3+)

103 Long answer: Yes, with a but.

Posted by: josephistan at May 14, 2019 11:18 AM (7HtZB)

Is this about me?

Posted by: Hope Solo at May 14, 2019 11:19 AM (wYseH)

104 when my kids were little I though Arthur was already PC garbage

really almost all the kids shows were awful, awful lessons

except Oswald

Posted by: BlackOrchid at May 14, 2019 11:19 AM (Rarvo)

105 This time next year Mr. Ratburn will decide he's transgendered and wants to known as Ms. Ratburn.
Posted by: FenelonSpoke at May 14, 2019 11:14 AM (FSPNP)
---------

Fen! Lol!

Posted by: bluebell at May 14, 2019 11:19 AM (aXucN)

106 Level playing field. Very simple. The tariff-haters just won't accommodate that point.
Posted by: Dan Smoot's Apprentice

Exactly. Slavery. No OSHA. No environmental regulations.

Level the field.

Posted by: rickb223 at May 14, 2019 11:19 AM (F8EBp)

107 Tariffs have adverse effects on consumers and corporate profits. Left out of the equation is American workers.

Posted by: Ignoramus at May 14, 2019 11:20 AM (V2zg1)

108 Smoot Hawley"

That's funny.

Tariff against limited products from one nation =/= unilateral tariffs against all imports of a given type, regardless of source.

Posted by: Anon a mouse at May 14, 2019 11:20 AM (6qErC)

109 We don't have free trade. We have free importation.

Posted by: Colorado Alex In Exile at May 14, 2019 11:20 AM (SgjGX)

110 and IF the Chinese come around and open their markets and eliminate their unfair trade practices, then sure, cut our tariffs.
Posted by: SturmToddler at May 14, 2019 11:08 AM (8D42x)

And I think PDT knows this. I think he's using the tariff threat as a club. Once he gets the deal(s) he wants from the Chinese, gets them to open up their markets, he'll drop the tariff talk.

Posted by: OregonMuse. AoSHQ Thought Leader & Pants Monitor at May 14, 2019 11:20 AM (fhFbZ)

111 103 Long answer: Yes, with a but.

Posted by: josephistan at May 14, 2019 11:18 AM (7HtZB)

Is this about me?

Posted by: Hope Solo

missed it by *that* much

Posted by: Brie Larsen at May 14, 2019 11:20 AM (sGtp+)

112 >>Exactly. Slavery. No OSHA. No environmental regulations.
Level the field. Posted by: rickb223 at May 14, 2019 11:19 AM (F8EBp)

This endorsement of Plan Zod is acceptable.

Posted by: Zod at May 14, 2019 11:20 AM (Bdeb0)

113 44
Tariffs are a weapon. They're not the be all and end all and they're not
unreservedly evil. They're a tool in the negotiator's toolbox, to use
or not to use as needed. I really don't see a moral aspect to this.

Posted by: joncelli, because somebody had to at May 14, 2019 11:08 AM (RD7QR)

In a world where one country expects safe working conditions, decent pay and some benefits and other countries are using slave labor and no safety standards, aren't tariffs just a way for a country to enforce minimum standards on another country by saying this is the minimum cost of your product if you were to adhere to modern standards of pay and safety?

Posted by: Cuthbert the Witless at May 14, 2019 11:21 AM (ymnmz)

114 Didn't Steven Crowder once voice on of the characters on Arthur?

Posted by: Augustine at May 14, 2019 11:21 AM (BDZWU)

115 when my kids were little I though Arthur was already PC garbage

really almost all the kids shows were awful, awful lessons

except Oswald

Posted by: BlackOrchid at May 14, 2019 11:19 AM (Rarvo)

Except Popeye and Bugs Bunny 1930 - 1959!

Posted by: Archer at May 14, 2019 11:21 AM (gmo/4)

116 Sure, but the richer and more powerful you are, the more you can simply ignore them. In China, if you're in trouble, its just a matter of needing to pay more to certain people. The only ones who suffer are the ones who cannot pay. "

China is pioneering the System that SJW's dream of imposing here. Everyone has a government calculated and monitored Social Justice Index number, based on the Propriety of your Thoughts. Words, and Deeds.

It's a simple matter to envision how a wonderful Social Justice Index number could be purchased by the Right Payment to the Right Person.

Posted by: Tom Servo at May 14, 2019 11:21 AM (Kpl3J)

117 105 This time next year Mr. Ratburn will decide he's transgendered and wants to known as Ms. Ratburn.
Posted by: FenelonSpoke at May 14, 2019 11:14 AM (FSPNP)
---------

Fen! Lol!

Posted by: bluebell at May 14, 2019 11:19 AM (aXucN)
or a ped

Posted by: phoenixgirl at May 14, 2019 11:21 AM (0O7c5)

118 We don't have free trade. We have free importation.

not actually free; taxpayers may even subsidize said importation

Posted by: BlackOrchid at May 14, 2019 11:21 AM (Rarvo)

119 The economic argument against tariffs is clear and unambiguous and damning. It's clearly not just economics though, so the question needs to be answered holistically. Tariffs have been the catalyst for war far too often to ignore how volatile they can make foreign policy. But the use of pricing power to weaken the American economy is also unacceptable, and can be reasonably seen as the first shot in a war.

The problem with this final argument is that, if we accept the concept, the rest of the world has been making war on us for generations. And until recently, our government has steadfastly refused to protect the American people.

Other nations have agency, too. We have to live within that reality. And sometimes that means doing things we'd rather not.

Posted by: Brother Cavil at May 14, 2019 11:21 AM (AM1GF)

120 Clapper opens his yap and says we don't need another investigation into the investigators and Barr should wait for IG report.

Sorry, Clap...too late!

https://twitter.com/SaraCarterDC/status/1128286964694769664

Posted by: IrishEi at May 14, 2019 11:22 AM (NtglE)

121 >>We don't have free trade. We have free importation.

Exactly.

We have been subjected to tariffs and other trade barriers not just in China but around the world for decades while we had a pretty much open door policy for imports.

Many countries use tariffs as a matter or economic policy. Trump is using them as a weapon to make them change their policies. It really isn't any more complicated than that.

Posted by: JackStraw at May 14, 2019 11:22 AM (/tuJf)

122 My kids hated Arthur.

Animaniacs> Tiny Toons> Power Rangers> anything else> Arthur

Still, the onslaught of ghey-ing up culture is friggin' insane.

Posted by: Pug Mahon at May 14, 2019 11:22 AM (xPJvm)

123 I've often argued, with wrathful responses from those who genuflect in front of the altar of Free Trade, that Capitalism is not, in and of itself a moral good.

Right. Capitalism is the least worst system. Its not a good system, it is an efficient system. By that I mean it is not morally heroic or noble, it is simply effective and productive. Some of the aspects of capitalism are good (liberty, for instance) but overall it is weaponized greed and selfishness. It turns the basest human nature into the greatest benefit to the largest number of people.

Communism presents its self as noble and moral, but is in fact a horrific evil because of how it crushes human nature, kills hope and ambition, and ruins economies, resulting in misery and poverty for everyone but the most powerful.

Posted by: Christopher R Taylor at May 14, 2019 11:22 AM (39g3+)

124 Good, someone else has actually READ Adam Smith.

:fistbump:
Posted by: Mark Andrew Edwards, Angry, Radical, Anti-Liberal, and Dangerous: buy ammo at May 14, 2019 11:18 AM (bcbK

Smith and Keynes, and both had good points to make. I know the latter is heresy on the right.

Posted by: Colorado Alex In Exile at May 14, 2019 11:22 AM (SgjGX)

125 but the richer and more powerful you are, the more you can simply ignore them"

If you're rich and powerful in China, the you are a part of the "government". That's a given.

Posted by: Anon a mouse at May 14, 2019 11:22 AM (6qErC)

126 Except Popeye and Bugs Bunny 1930 - 1959!

well yes obviously! I was talking about the shows that were new then

on PBS and whatnot

Posted by: BlackOrchid at May 14, 2019 11:22 AM (Rarvo)

127 The economic argument against tariffs is clear and unambiguous and damning.

True. However, sometimes there are compelling reasons to use them
short-term. We are in such a situation now with China clearly not
acting in accordance with its free trade obligations.

If I thought Trump saw tariffs as a permanent feature of economic
policy, I'd oppose them, but I'm sure he simply sees them as a lever
with which to move the Chinese from their unacceptable behaviors.

I'll reevaluate if they do, and yet Trump keeps the tariffs.

Posted by: pep at May 14, 2019 11:15 AM

---

When clinton renewed China's favored Nation status despite their human rights abuses, it was all over. He used an illegal EO to do an end run around Congress and they didn't fight it.

I guess Trump could remove it by EO too.

Posted by: The Great White Scotsman at May 14, 2019 11:22 AM (JUOKG)

128 Chinese play long game, outwait Trump, resume fleecing. Is logical.
Posted by: Zod

Yes, but from what I'm told, the Chicoms are very worried about societal instability due to unemployment. That's why they've had their foot on the accelerator for the last 40 years. Xi apparently doesn't want to find out how bad things could get if tariffs shut them out of our market. OTOH, he can't look weak by caving to Trump, or he'll get the Ceaucescu treatment. He's caught between a rock and a hard place. Sucks to be him.

Posted by: pep at May 14, 2019 11:22 AM (wW03z)

129 Foreign Slave Labor : GOOD

American Worker : BAD

Posted by: The Democrat Position at May 14, 2019 11:23 AM (Nud5/)

130 Or destroy their ability to wage war, by shutting down supplies needed for the military.

Their argument presupposes a World at Peace, something which I don't believe has EVERY actually happened.

Posted by: Don Q at May 14, 2019 11:18 AM (NgKpN)

Yes, smarter people than me have suggested there are some aspects of our military tech that have become wholly dependent on Chinese products to operate said tech. Things like airplane and missile tech. So yeah, seems a bad idea to give one's enemy that much power over the nation, in the guise of meeting some standard of purity regarding Free Trade.

Posted by: BurtTC at May 14, 2019 11:23 AM (a2xio)

131 it's like all of this was ongoing in secret HMMM sort Of Like JackStraw said

Posted by: Deep State is In DEEP SHIT at May 14, 2019 11:23 AM (BqBId)

132 In a world where one country expects safe working conditions, decent pay and some benefits and other countries are using slave labor and no safety standards, aren't tariffs just a way for a country to enforce minimum standards on another country by saying this is the minimum cost of your product if you were to adhere to modern standards of pay and safety?

Posted by: Cuthbert the Witless at May 14, 2019 11:21 AM (ymnmz)

Exactly that. It's a means of stripping away undue advantages gained by abominable labor practices, currency chicanery, intellectual property theft, and dumping subsidized goods.

As a bonus, maybe we can use the funds raised to pay down the debt.

Posted by: Cato, Media Delenda Est at May 14, 2019 11:23 AM (J+mig)

133
The problem with free vs fair trade boils down to politics, not economics.

The American postwar system of free trade worked pretty well, when it was largely confined to Europe and the Anglosphere. These were environments where labor economies, regulatory regimes, currency strengths, and cultural attitudes regarding trade were fairly similar.

We began to see problems with the rise of Japan and their more predatory approach to trade, but it was still workable. Once we let China, India and Latin America in on our system of trade deals, it became a free-for-all jungle.

These are countries that operate in labor economies of wage slavery. They keep currencies deliberately weak to boost exports. They have next to no regulatory structure, and very low corporate tax rates. They engage in unethical practices like dumping, counterfeiting, and so on.

That can be considered "free" trade, but it is deeply unfair to the more advanced economies in the system. In such an environment we cannot win. Unless they can be forced into fair participation it'll never benefit us.

And at that point, political decisions have to be made. You can't argue it all from an academic theoretical standpoint, wherein all human motives aside from economic ones are ignored.

And free-traders should know this. Any economic model that doesn't take into account dynamic analyses and relies on ceteris paribus formulas is (rightly) disregarded by these people as childish.

But in the broader context of human affairs, these wonks do it constantly, by pretending that all non-economic factors are static, and revolve around the economic ones.

Posted by: Yudhishthira's Dice at May 14, 2019 11:23 AM (AzW6q)

134 103 Long answer: Yes, with a but.

Posted by: josephistan at May 14, 2019 11:18 AM (7HtZB)

Is this about me?
Posted by: Hope Solo at May 14, 2019 11:19 AM (wYseH)

that's not funny!

Posted by: Brie Larson at May 14, 2019 11:23 AM (NgKpN)

135 It's a simple matter to envision how a wonderful Social Justice Index number could be purchased by the Right Payment to the Right Person.
Posted by: Tom Servo

To a certain extent such systems are always in place in any culture, if only informally. The only true question is whose values are enforced, and how.

Posted by: Brother Cavil at May 14, 2019 11:24 AM (AM1GF)

136 Wishbone was the best PBS kids' show.

Posted by: bluebell at May 14, 2019 11:24 AM (aXucN)

137 >>Smith and Keynes, and both had good points to make. I know the latter is heresy on the right. Posted by: Colorado Alex In Exile at May 14, 2019 11:22 AM (SgjGX)

Keynes will gladly pay you Tuesday for a hamburger today.

Posted by: Zod at May 14, 2019 11:24 AM (Bdeb0)

138 Other nations have agency, too. We have to live within that reality. And sometimes that means doing things we'd rather not.

Posted by: Brother Cavil at May 14, 2019 11:21 AM (AM1GF)

Absolutely. But in the case of China we are obviously a rival and an enemy, so the calculation must be done differently than...say...with the UK or Italy.

Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo at May 14, 2019 11:24 AM (wYseH)

139 95 The argument against protectionism only addresses ECONOMIC morality.

It does not address the ideal that a Nation State should ensure that an enemy, or potential enemy, can destroy their economy by STOPPING said commerce.

Or destroy their ability to wage war, by shutting down supplies needed for the military.

Their argument presupposes a World at Peace, something which I don't believe has EVERY actually happened.

Posted by: Don Q at May 14, 2019 11:18 AM (NgKpN)

It also presupposes free movement of labor. More free trade almost always favors capital holders, but the laborers in developing countries experience a large increase in living standards(relatively speaking) at the expense of laborers in developed countries.

Whether this is always true or simply particular to our current technological level remains to be seen.

Posted by: Someguy at May 14, 2019 11:24 AM (sqdLZ)

140 115 when my kids were little I though Arthur was already PC garbage

really almost all the kids shows were awful, awful lessons

except Oswald

Posted by: BlackOrchid at May 14, 2019 11:19 AM (Rarvo)

Except Popeye and Bugs Bunny 1930 - 1959!
Posted by: Archer at May 14, 2019 11:21 AM (gmo/4)

As a kid, i was very disappointed when my mom would take me to the Acme supermarket & they didn't have roadrunner seed or rocket sleds or 1000 lb anvils

Posted by: josephistan at May 14, 2019 11:24 AM (7HtZB)

141 What happened to our most recent trade war with Canada?

Posted by: Can't resist temptation at May 14, 2019 11:24 AM (lmPMy)

142 >>(This is a CNN reporter)

This is also Valererie Jarrett's daughter

Posted by: Lizzy at May 14, 2019 11:24 AM (W+vEI)

143 Okay, let me clarify: a tariff is a tool in the same way that a nail gun is a tool. If you're a moral negotiator or a moral carpenter, they are useful tools that can get useful things done. If you're amoral, they can be used as destructive weapons.

(And now I have a vision of some negotiator wielding a nail gun and yelling "Give us the concession or your balls get nailed to the wall!" But that's just me.)

Posted by: joncelli, because somebody had to at May 14, 2019 11:19 AM (RD7QR)

well, it'd make the negotiation sessions MUCH more lively...

Posted by: SturmToddler at May 14, 2019 11:24 AM (8D42x)

144 120 Clapper opens his yap and says we don't need another investigation into the investigators and Barr should wait for IG report.

Which makes me wonder what inside info does clapper have about the IG report?

Posted by: It's me donna at May 14, 2019 11:24 AM (O2RFr)

145 124 Good, someone else has actually READ Adam Smith.

:fistbump:
Posted by: Mark Andrew Edwards, Angry, Radical, Anti-Liberal, and Dangerous: buy ammo at May 14, 2019 11:18 AM (bcbK

Smith and Keynes, and both had good points to make. I know the latter is heresy on the right.

Posted by: Colorado Alex In Exile at May 14, 2019 11:22 AM (SgjGX)

Keynes is like Bernie Sanders: good at diagnosing what he sees going wrong, but drawing the wrong conclusions and prescriptions.

Keynes is also a nihilistic cocksucker.

Posted by: Mark Andrew Edwards, Angry, Radical, Anti-Liberal, and Dangerous: buy ammo at May 14, 2019 11:25 AM (bcbK8)

146 There was an old Russian Air Force / Tank Commander saying, "Quantity is a quality of it's own".

Tariffs should not be used punitively or as a way of dis incentivizing innovation or generally growth of sophistication.

Apparently there is a Chinese corollary that says "Slave labor is an innovative production mechanism of it's own".

Posted by: Cuthbert the Witless at May 14, 2019 11:25 AM (ymnmz)

147 Clapper opens his yap and says we don't need another investigation into the investigators and Barr should wait for IG report.

Sorry, Clap...too late!

https://twitter.com/SaraCarterDC/status/1128286964694769664

Posted by: IrishEi at May 14, 2019 11:22 AM

---

Someone sounds scared. He is not in the loop anymore and has no idea whats going on that's why he is speaking against AG Barr and this investigation.

I expect more and more players will come out in the following days to condemn Trump and his weaponizing of the DOJ by conducting this investigation.

Posted by: The Great White Scotsman at May 14, 2019 11:25 AM (JUOKG)

148 mr ratburn at the folsum street fair

Posted by: phoenixgirl at May 14, 2019 11:25 AM (0O7c5)

149 Are tariffs good?

Short answer: No, with an if.

Long answer: Yes, with a but.

-
No stiff hands or butts.

Posted by: Anonosaurus Wrecks, Tyrannosaur Wrangler at May 14, 2019 11:25 AM (+y/Ru)

150 Xi apparently doesn't want to find out how bad things could get if tariffs shut them out of our market. OTOH, he can't look weak by caving to Trump, or he'll get the Ceaucescu treatment. He's caught between a rock and a hard place. Sucks to be him.
Posted by: pep

He wanted to be The Man. But The Man always has a target on his back.

Posted by: Brother Cavil at May 14, 2019 11:25 AM (AM1GF)

151 Permanent tariffs only hurt consumers in the long term.

But they are a tool to negotiate better trade agreements.

Personally, I think a complete ban on goods from another nation not willing to enter into full free trade would be a better, faster solution.

What Trump should do is address the nation and ask everyone to stop buying anything made in China until they come to the table and make a deal on free trade.

A deal would be signed in a month if not sooner.

Posted by: Chi-Town Jerry at May 14, 2019 11:25 AM (so+oy)

152 During the last four administrations I thought our trade negotiators must have been either idiots or traitors and I was right, they were.

Posted by: Decaf at May 14, 2019 11:26 AM (PUz4C)

153 148 mr ratburn at the folsum street fair
Posted by: phoenixgirl at May 14, 2019 11:25 AM (0O7c5)

His arms wide open!

Posted by: josephistan at May 14, 2019 11:26 AM (7HtZB)

154 I may be the last free marketeer here. Tariffs are bad. Protectionism hurts the protectionist side.

Are there places in the world that exploit cheap labor? Yes there are. And unskilled labor finds the next lowest common demoninator. Textiles moved from the American South to China, then Pakistan, VietNam, and probably next to Burma. Shit work goes to shit places.

And shit countries pollute. Yes they do. So should we OSHA and EPA the entire world? If so, why us? Maybe the EU should set the rules for the whole world to live by.

Bad work conditions and pollutions are externalities. They're a price paid by the countries who sell us shit. They are bad, but they're not our fault.

Messing around with tariffs is the government picking winners and losers. Protecting steel is good for steel workers but it hurts the people who make things with steel. There is no free lunch. Government putting its thumb on the scale of free enterprise is a mistake.

Posted by: Bandersnatch at May 14, 2019 11:26 AM (fuK7c)

155 Animaniacs and Bugs Bunny are 95% of the education a young kid needs.

Throw in a little Woody Woodpecker and some Chilly Willy and you are 98% of the way home.

Posted by: garrett at May 14, 2019 11:27 AM (Nud5/)

156 OT - James Baker says on NPR this am that we should love PDJT, like MLK Jr. advised loving racists, but admits he has not suffered like Muslims and migrants at Trump's hands.

I hope you find plenty of lovin' at Club Fed, Jim.

Posted by: Ray Van Dune at May 14, 2019 11:27 AM (Dl1nv)

157 Drive-by comment to say hi to Alex.

Hi, Alex! Hope all is well with you!

Posted by: Emmie at May 14, 2019 11:27 AM (4HMW8)

158 The problem with this final argument is that, if we accept the concept, the rest of the world has been making war on us for generations. And until recently, our government has steadfastly refused to protect the American people.

And that's all true. The American people have been systematically through weak presidents and bad faith negotiation been put under greater and greater attack by foreign forces in the name of humbling the US and globalism.

And this more than anything else is why Trump wanted to be president. All the other stuff -- the wall, political correctness, etc -- all of that mattered, but as a big time businessman he could see and suffered from the ghastly trade situation and saw it had to be addressed.

Some of it was reasonable; it was a fight against communism, so we were extending favor to nations and spending our immense treasure to make not being communist attractive. To that extent we helped kill communism. But that day is over, and new trade deals should have been worked out as soon as the Berlin Wall fell. Instead, those in power just kept doing the same thing, and under Obama even worse.

Posted by: Christopher R Taylor at May 14, 2019 11:27 AM (39g3+)

159 So as part of my 'fuck you, Washington State' shopping spree prior to July 1st, I'm thinking of getting a .380. I have no real need for a .380. But, fuck you rules.

So I'm thinking either a Glock 42 or a Baby Rock, Rock Island .380 1911 clone.

Any morons have either?

I have a Kahr 380 for deep concealment but it's too small, really.

Posted by: Mark Andrew Edwards, Angry, Radical, Anti-Liberal, and Dangerous: buy ammo at May 14, 2019 11:27 AM (bcbK8)

160 What happened to our most recent trade war with Canada?"

We won. They had to keep Justin.

Posted by: Anon a mouse at May 14, 2019 11:27 AM (6qErC)

161 153 148 mr ratburn at the folsum street fair
Posted by: phoenixgirl at May 14, 2019 11:25 AM (0O7c5)

His arms wide open!
Posted by: josephistan at May 14, 2019 11:26 AM (7HtZB)

------

Dude.....

Posted by: Creed at May 14, 2019 11:28 AM (vIjh1)

162 Foreign Slave Labor : GOOD

American Worker : BAD Posted by: The Democrat Position

We agree.

-the GOPe

Posted by: shibumi, still cynical and now married longer than Nicolas Cage! at May 14, 2019 11:28 AM (sktRI)

163 Skipped the argument about supply/demand

Because there is no such thing anymore. It's given lip-service today, but it is working within a system completely 100% manipulated by multinational corporations with resources beyond most nations.

Consumers decide based on price on products and goods whose supply is manipulated. Supply is manipulated on national levels by conglomerated multinational corporations.

So, to formulate argument based on s/d is to appeal to anachronistic economic sentiment. Whatever that guy said, talk to the hand.

Now that Trump is forcing China, and forcing manufacturers out of China, and forcing some of that production back to U.S., he's also forcing the entire trade system back to good old supply and demand.

And that's why China and multinationals are freaking out so badly, and writing sentimental things like this. Their own supply and pricing controls are being broken down.

Posted by: bour3 at May 14, 2019 11:28 AM (KXQr+)

164 They're a price paid by the countries who sell us shit. They are bad, but they're not our fault."

Que?

Posted by: Anon a mouse at May 14, 2019 11:28 AM (6qErC)

165 For years and likely up to today, Brazil had a rule that you couldn't buy a foreign product (for business purposes) if a similar product could be obtained locally. And the definition of "similar" was exceptionally broad and open to interpretation and bribery and even if you did get your products in there were tariffs to be paid.

This isn't China, this what everyone has perceived as a relatively open and friendly country. This stuff has been going of for decades and I don't remember to many of our betters freaking out about foreign tariffs.

There is no such thing as free trade when only one side is practicing it. That is called idiocy and surrender.

Posted by: JackStraw at May 14, 2019 11:28 AM (/tuJf)

166 "Or destroy their ability to wage war, by shutting down supplies needed for the military. "

When the US was rebuilding its navy in the 1880's there was an instance that steel plate, armor, and guns be manufactured in the US, even if it would be cheaper to import. Even if the facilities for the armor and guns did not yet exist and part of the cost was so that manufacturers would build those facilities. Of course back then those men were patriotic.

Posted by: Mikey NTH - Party of One! Personalized Identity Group Kits Now at The Outrage Outlet! at May 14, 2019 11:28 AM (hLRSq)

167 >> I may be the last free marketeer here. Tariffs are bad. Protectionism hurts the protectionist side.

Well, if we were setting up the Board to play the game from the Start...sure.

BUT. We aren't allowed to wage war properly anymore. So, Trade is about all we have left to serve as a stick to the Carrot of Free(er) Trade.

Posted by: garrett at May 14, 2019 11:28 AM (Nud5/)

168 @ewarren

I've done 57 media avails and 131 interviews, taking over 1,100 questions from press just since January. Fox News is welcome to come to my events just like any other outlet. But a Fox News town hall adds money to the hate-for-profit machine. To which I say: hard pass.

Posted by: Tami at May 14, 2019 11:29 AM (cF8AT)

169 In a world where one country expects safe working conditions, decent pay and some benefits and other countries are using slave labor and no safety standards, aren't tariffs just a way for a country to enforce minimum standards on another country by saying this is the minimum cost of your product if you were to adhere to modern standards of pay and safety?

Posted by: Cuthbert the Witless

True, but the risk is that you become the UAW of the post-war era; lazy, overpaid, and dependent on government quotas for protection. That's why tariffs are a bad long-term policy.

Posted by: pep at May 14, 2019 11:29 AM (wW03z)

170 Animaniacs and Bugs Bunny are 95% of the education a young kid needs.

Throw in a little Woody Woodpecker and some Chilly Willy and you are 98% of the way home.
Posted by: garrett

No mention of Walter Lantz and Droopy Dog!?!

Good day to you sir and/or madam!

Posted by: Blue Hen at May 14, 2019 11:29 AM (rFmwm)

171 The vast majority of people get their exposure to free-trade arguments through their intro to macro class in college, or some regurgitation of it in writings. Robinson Crusoe and Friday each fish and harvest coconuts. If Crusoe spends his day fishing, while Friday harvests coconuts, they can trade and each be better off. Scale up to national levels.

Except that it's a vast oversimplification that doesn't scale up well. Nations are comprised of millions of individuals and hundreds of thousands of products and services. And there are political considerations that must be taken into account.

If you could implement a policy which increased real income by 50% for 70% of the population, but halved it for the remaining 30%, should you implement it?

From a purely economic perspective, yes, you should. Overall incomes would rise. However, from a political perspective, you have 30% of your population who are worse off, and who are likely to be pissed about it.

Posted by: Colorado Alex In Exile at May 14, 2019 11:29 AM (SgjGX)

172
Tariffs are a tactical battlefield weapon, not strategic MAD.

Posted by: M K Ultra at May 14, 2019 11:29 AM (n2qRY)

173 169 @ewarren

I've done 57 media avails and 131 interviews, taking over 1,100 questions from press just since January. Fox News is welcome to come to my events just like any other outlet. But a Fox News town hall adds money to the hate-for-profit machine. To which I say: hard pass.
Posted by: Tami at May 14, 2019 11:29 AM (cF8AT)

If Fauxahuantus is against hate-for-profit, she'd better change parties.

Posted by: Mark Andrew Edwards, Angry, Radical, Anti-Liberal, and Dangerous: buy ammo at May 14, 2019 11:29 AM (bcbK8)

174 The economic argument against tariffs is clear and unambiguous and damning. It's clearly not just economics though
_______

Those two statements contain the key. The tariffs directed against China are not strictly protectionist, they are strategic. And effective strategic moves often cost money. Aircraft carriers are expensive, and not an economic asset. At least, they are directly a drain on the economy; though they might have an indirect benefit, like suppressing pirates.

It's worth remembering that Adam Smith thought the Navigation Acts were farsighted. And they were not fundamentally an economic policy, but a strategic one.

(a) They were directed against enemies. At first, that meant primarily the Dutch, but also France and Spain.

(b) They promoted both British shipbuilding and large numbers of British sailors, both of which were fundamentally a support of the navy. (Even smugglers were a strategic naval asset - prime seamen.)

Posted by: Eeyore at May 14, 2019 11:29 AM (VaN/j)

175 Bandersnatch.

We're quite literally PAYING for "free import" from bad actors (as US taxpayers)

The reason we do that against our will is that our Elites were getting a cut

That situation needs to end. Tariffs is the most efficient way - or at least one good way, I think PDJT has others going into play - to stop the system as it currently stands.

As things stand bad people in charge of other countries AND our country are getting very rich at the expense of a lot of other people (like myself and probably you).

open your mind. step AWAY from the semantics of it. use all tools to break the Machine.

Posted by: BlackOrchid at May 14, 2019 11:29 AM (Rarvo)

176
We won. They had to keep Justin.

Posted by: Anon a mouse

And Quebec.

Posted by: Hadrian the Seventh at May 14, 2019 11:29 AM (BWL+E)

177 There is no free lunch. Government putting its thumb on the scale of free enterprise is a mistake.

No, it's a cost. A cost that must be weighed against other costs.

Posted by: Grump928(C) at May 14, 2019 11:29 AM (iSh8b)

178 Which makes me wonder what inside info does clapper have about the IG report?
Posted by: It's me donna at May 14, 2019 11:24 AM (O2RFr)
~~~~~

I wouldn't worry too much about that. Remember, they wanted us to "wait for the Mueller report" too.

Posted by: IrishEi at May 14, 2019 11:29 AM (NtglE)

179 So as part of my 'fuck you, Washington State' shopping spree prior to July 1st, I'm thinking of getting a .380. I have no real need for a .380. But, fuck you rules.

So I'm thinking either a Glock 42 or a Baby Rock, Rock Island .380 1911 clone.

Any morons have either?

I have a Kahr 380 for deep concealment but it's too small, really.
Posted by: Mark Andrew Edwards, Angry, Radical, Anti-Liberal, and Dangerous: buy ammo at May 14, 2019 11:27 AM (bcbK

----

Take a good hard look at the M&P 380 Shield if you want to avoid a micro 380.

Posted by: Creed at May 14, 2019 11:30 AM (vIjh1)

180 . But a Fox News town hall adds money to the hate-for-profit machine. To which I say: hard pass.

Coming from one of the most anti-American "hate machines."

Posted by: It's me donna at May 14, 2019 11:30 AM (O2RFr)

181
damn sock

Posted by: fixerupper at May 14, 2019 11:30 AM (vIjh1)

182 156 Animaniacs and Bugs Bunny are 95% of the education a young kid needs.

Throw in a little Woody Woodpecker and some Chilly Willy and you are 98% of the way home.
Posted by: garrett at May 14, 2019 11:27 AM (Nud5/)

===========

The last 2% is Moby Dick.

Posted by: TheJamesMadison, Read Some Movie Thoughts at May 14, 2019 11:30 AM (9cans)

183 >>mr ratburn is now ghey and getting married on the children's show "arthur" do they have to ruin everything?

Yes, yes they do.

Remembers years ago when there was an article in Jerry Falwell's magazine (he was not the author) about how one of the Teletubbies was embraced by the gays as a gay character? Yeah, the Left totally mocked it as "Paranoid Jerry Falwell sees gays in cartoons!!!"

In fact, the article was about "hey parents, you should know that kids cartoons are being infiltrated with stealth lefty messaging," which was . . . absolutely correct and worth making parents aware of.

Posted by: Lizzy at May 14, 2019 11:30 AM (W+vEI)

184 Messing around with tariffs is the government picking winners and losers. Protecting steel is good for steel workers but it hurts the people who make things with steel. There is no free lunch. Government putting its thumb on the scale of free enterprise is a mistake.
Posted by: Bandersnatch at May 14, 2019 11:26 AM (fuK7c)

Protecting steel is essential for military purposes. Being dependent on foreign materials for military production is not a position you want to be in when a war breaks out.

Posted by: Cato, Media Delenda Est at May 14, 2019 11:31 AM (J+mig)

185 I wouldn't worry too much about that. Remember, they wanted us to "wait for the Mueller report" too.

True, but the Mueller report was a nasty piece of work

Posted by: It's me donna at May 14, 2019 11:31 AM (O2RFr)

186 Woody and Chilly were Lantz Productions, no?

You need a little Tom and Jerry and some Rocky and Bullwinkle sprinkled in there for that final 2%.

Posted by: garrett at May 14, 2019 11:31 AM (Nud5/)

187 >>150 Xi apparently doesn't want to find out how bad things could get if tariffs shut them out of our market. Posted by: pep

If things do start to go sideways, and he's smart, he'll play it like Mao's Hundred Flowers Campaign.

With apologies to Jefferson, "the tree of tyranny must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of dissidents."

Posted by: Zod at May 14, 2019 11:31 AM (Bdeb0)

188 I may be the last free marketeer here. Tariffs are bad. "

I bow to no one in my support of free markets, and I note that tariffs are indeed "bad".

The alternative that we've lived under for the past 4 decades is worse.

Posted by: Anon a mouse at May 14, 2019 11:31 AM (6qErC)

189 >>I wouldn't worry too much about that. Remember, they wanted us to "wait for the Mueller report" too.

Also, Inspectors General do not prosecute. They investigate.

Prosecutors prosecute.

Posted by: JackStraw at May 14, 2019 11:31 AM (/tuJf)

190 >>The last 2% is Moby Dick.

Ladies and Gentlemen...

John Bonham!

Posted by: garrett at May 14, 2019 11:31 AM (Nud5/)

191 161 What happened to our most recent trade war with Canada?"

We won. They had to keep Justin.
Posted by: Anon a mouse at May 14, 2019 11:27 AM (6qErC)

But Celene Dion is still in residence at Las Vegas.

Posted by: josephistan at May 14, 2019 11:31 AM (7HtZB)

192 Which makes me wonder what inside info does clapper have about the IG report?
Posted by: It's me donna at May 14, 2019 11:24 AM (O2RFr)
******
He is part of it, BIG PART of it & he knows what he did & what the other Coup plotters did

Posted by: Deep State is In DEEP SHIT at May 14, 2019 11:32 AM (BqBId)

193 Posted by: Eeyore at May 14, 2019 11:29 AM (VaN/j)

Agreed. And I appreciate the fact that you actually read what I wrote, but that's no way to fit in around here!

Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo at May 14, 2019 11:32 AM (wYseH)

194 So as part of my 'fuck you, Washington State'
shopping spree prior to July 1st, I'm thinking of getting a .380. I
have no real need for a .380. But, fuck you rules.

So I'm thinking either a Glock 42 or a Baby Rock, Rock Island .380 1911 clone.

Any morons have either?

I have a Kahr 380 for deep concealment but it's too small, really.

Posted by: Mark Andrew Edwards, Angry, Radical, Anti-Liberal, and Dangerous: buy ammo at May 14, 2019 11:27 AM

---

I have the Glock 42 it is pretty much my EDC now. You do have to get some talon grips for it though. They make it much easier to stay on target. I have a tendency to shoot low left without them on the gun.

I also have two Sig P238's but I rarely carry them. Not sure if I like having to remember to drop the safety in a high stress situation. Training helps but I like the G42 better for that reason.

Posted by: The Great White Scotsman at May 14, 2019 11:32 AM (JUOKG)

195 Tariffs are one of the primary go-to weapons for tit-for-tat when you need to deal with a foreign nation subsidizing the dumping of their own products into our market.

There is no reason for us to tolerate that. A well run campaign to drive some of our industries into the ground has major strategic and economic implications.

So tariffs are bad, and wrong - until they're not. Much like shooting people in the face.

Posted by: lurker (the other one) at May 14, 2019 11:32 AM (67XdO)

196 have a Kahr 380 for deep concealment but it's too small, really.
Posted by: Mark Andrew Edwards, Angry, Radical, Anti-Liberal, and Dangerous: buy ammo at May 14, 2019 11:27 AM (bcbK

I have the Kel Tec PA3t in my pocket right now. If it's a back up , I don't mind 'too small' .

Posted by: Can't resist temptation at May 14, 2019 11:32 AM (lmPMy)

197 Prisoners dilemma: Either we're the chumps on tariffs forever or a little pain to all now for cooperation toward greater benefit in the future.

It's been gamed out over and over through human history

The anti tariff folks can't keep starting their arguments from the assumption that cooperation is the norm

Posted by: RoyalOil, Vicroy Canadian Territories at May 14, 2019 11:32 AM (k81AA)

198 Messing around with tariffs is the government picking winners and losers. Protecting steel is good for steel workers but it hurts the people who make things with steel. There is no free lunch. Government putting its thumb on the scale of free enterprise is a mistake.

Let's put it this way. I love peace. I'm all for peace. I hate war, it is evil and monstrous. It ruins lives and economies and nations. Those war does not kill, it ruins for life. It echoes down generations.

But peace is not worth having if it means evil bondage and tyranny. Peace is the highest goal, but not absolute; we must at times in this world have war. Sometimes the only way to have peace is through war.

I'm all for free trade, but not absolutely: we must at times use the tools available to fight against abuses and bad trade deals in order to bring about free trade.

Posted by: Christopher R Taylor at May 14, 2019 11:32 AM (39g3+)

199 America to compete better in a global economy? Get the jack-boots of EPA off the necks of American companies would be a start.

The People's Republic of China needs to have a rolled newspaper across the nose and tariffs are one way to finally tell them to stop stealing intellectual property.

Has anyone noticed that with Trump, we got Jack Ryan as President?

Posted by: Anna Puma at May 14, 2019 11:32 AM (Av3cU)

200 This talk about "Trade War" never acknowledges America has been in a "Trade Surrender" for decades.

Prior to the Income Tax (ruled unconstitutuonal, natch, at one time) Tariffs were the chief form of revenue for the national government.

In 1913 the government ended up with centralized banking, direct election of US Senators, and a tax on income. Then jumped into a World War in Europe fashionably late, and helped usher in unwittingly perhaps, of 100 years worth of human misery around the globe in the form of communism/naziisim/collectivism/totalitarianism/call it what you want. 100 years later! I'm not arguing that they are connected per se, or the proximate cause, just that it really wasn't any of our business, and that's why the nation was founded, to get away from that crap. I don't have a good answer.

Better things, for better living, by blowing cities down to rubble? Hm.

Posted by: Common Tater at May 14, 2019 11:32 AM (Cel0r)

201 Tariffs are a tactical battlefield weapon, not strategic MAD.
Posted by: M K Ultra at May 14, 2019 11:29 AM (n2qRY)

------

^This. A permanent regime of protectionism is a retarded idea.

A temporary regime of protectionism can be a useful weapon, if your goal is to force a realignment of trade deals and to punish rivals into cooperation on a level playing field.

I'd love it if we could rid ourselves of (most) trade barriers. But in order to do that, we can't have rivals erecting them wherever they see fit as we unilaterally disarm.

That, too, is a retarded idea.

Posted by: Yudhishthira's Dice at May 14, 2019 11:32 AM (AzW6q)

202 180 So as part of my 'fuck you, Washington State' shopping spree prior to July 1st, I'm thinking of getting a .380. I have no real need for a .380. But, fuck you rules.

So I'm thinking either a Glock 42 or a Baby Rock, Rock Island .380 1911 clone.

Any morons have either?

I have a Kahr 380 for deep concealment but it's too small, really.
Posted by: Mark Andrew Edwards, Angry, Radical, Anti-Liberal, and Dangerous: buy ammo at May 14, 2019 11:27 AM (bcbK

----

Take a good hard look at the M&P 380 Shield if you want to avoid a micro 380.
Posted by: Creed at May 14, 2019 11:30 AM (vIjh1)

Oh, good point. Those are cheap right now, too.

Posted by: Mark Andrew Edwards, Angry, Radical, Anti-Liberal, and Dangerous: buy ammo at May 14, 2019 11:32 AM (bcbK8)

203 I have a Kahr 380 for deep concealment but it's too small, really.

If you don't want pocketable, why no go with 9mm Lugar?

Posted by: Grump928(C) at May 14, 2019 11:33 AM (iSh8b)

204
The last 2% is Moby Dick.

Posted by: TheJamesMadison, Read Some Movie Thoughts at May 14, 2019 11:30 AM

ikr

John Bonham was the bestest drummer EVAH

Posted by: AltonJackson (link in nick for the MiMoMe) at May 14, 2019 11:33 AM (cuot+)

205 Bad work conditions and pollutions are externalities. They're a price paid by the countries who sell us shit. They are bad, but they're not our fault.

Messing around with tariffs is the government picking winners and losers. Protecting steel is good for steel workers but it hurts the people who make things with steel. There is no free lunch. Government putting its thumb on the scale of free enterprise is a mistake.

Posted by: Bandersnatch

Here's the thing: If you refuse to take some measure to reduce the incentive to pollute and exploit, it will continue, to the detriment of those who act responsibly. No tariffs is great for the people who make things from steel, but last I checked? Most of them were overseas now...thus the benefits are exaggerated, at best, and tend all too often to be concentrated in the hands of a select few.

Modern economics has become a toxic brew of bad ideas and ruthless exploitation. Poison is in the dose. If we need a little now to clean out the worse problems, then we do what we must so that we some day don't have to (as much).

Posted by: Brother Cavil at May 14, 2019 11:33 AM (AM1GF)

206 Being dependent on foreign materials for military production is not a position you want to be in when a war breaks out."

War? Our betters are 'again it. We only have "police actions" n' such.

Until it breaks out.

Posted by: Anon a mouse at May 14, 2019 11:33 AM (6qErC)

207 178 There is no free lunch. Government putting its thumb on the scale of free enterprise is a mistake.

No, it's a cost. A cost that must be weighed against other costs.

Posted by: Grump928(C) at May 14, 2019 11:29 AM (iSh8b)

I for one think Boeing should be able to freely sell weapons to China and Iran. /sarc

We are not choosing between a world with no tariffs and one with tariffs. We also aren't choosing between unilateral no trade barriers on our end or having some. We've always had trade barriers. We're choosing particular instances of employing trade barriers.

Posted by: Someguy at May 14, 2019 11:33 AM (sqdLZ)

208 The US Senate advanced Michael Truncale to be US District Court judge for Eastern TX on a 49-43 near party line vote Monday. Would be 64th district court judge and 105th federal judge approved overall by Senate in Trump presidency.

The one Republican voting 'No.' Mitt "Jeff Flake" Romney.

Posted by: Victor Tango Kilo at May 14, 2019 11:34 AM (O7MnT)

209 -
--
Animaniacs and Bugs Bunny are 95% of the education a young kid needs.

------------
Throw in a little Woody Woodpecker and some Chilly Willy and you are 98% of the way home.

Posted by: garrett at May 14, 2019 11:27 AM

------------------

Make sure to include some Droopy and Huckleberry Hound.

Posted by: irright at May 14, 2019 11:34 AM (pMGkg)

210
Excellent takedowns here of the argument against tariffs.

Tariffs are always bad just like marxist labor theory of value is always right. (sarcasm)

They are both shining examples of the fallacy of composition.

Posted by: sunflower at May 14, 2019 11:34 AM (I54dk)

211 I'm definitely a free-trader.

I'm also very strongly a "one set of rules" sort of person.

These two things are in conflict a lot of the time but I'd say that one-sided free trade really isn't free trade at all.

So I'll go with "one set of rules".

Posted by: Synova (reversion to pseudonymous) at May 14, 2019 11:34 AM (BD/yx)

212 I have to think that the "free markets at all costs, no tariffs ever!" crowd fundamentally doesn't understand the nature of heavy industry, where ours is at, or the strategic implications.

Look at fighter aircraft; *every single fighter jet* we make has core structural components made on one of a few giant fucking machines. Those machines were made after WW2; the companies that made them and machines like them are long gone.

Posted by: lurker (the other one) at May 14, 2019 11:34 AM (67XdO)

213 189 I may be the last free marketeer here. Tariffs are bad. "

I bow to no one in my support of free markets, and I note that tariffs are indeed "bad".

The alternative that we've lived under for the past 4 decades is worse.

Posted by: Anon a mouse at May 14, 2019 11:31 AM (6qErC)

This guy gets it. Idealism gets people killed. We don't live in a perfect world, we just get to choose the least worst option of what's available. The status quo of trade with China is the worst option, short of immediate and unconditional surrender to the Chinese Communist Party.

Posted by: Cato, Media Delenda Est at May 14, 2019 11:34 AM (J+mig)

214 >>What happened to our most recent trade war with Canada?"

We won. They had to keep Justin.
- - -
Yeah, Justin and Christia Freeland were all "We are so going to own Trump!!" They didn't.

Aaand just last week Justin was begging Trump to talk to China for him about releasing two Canadians arrested in retaliation for Canada arresting the Hawuei executive.

Posted by: Lizzy at May 14, 2019 11:34 AM (W+vEI)

215 This talk about "Trade War" never acknowledges America has been in a "Trade Surrender" for decades."

Newsletter? Jib? Cut?

Posted by: Anon a mouse at May 14, 2019 11:34 AM (6qErC)

216 Honestly, I'm less concerned about importation of Chinese steel than I am with the importation of Chinese electronic components which are riddled with bugs.

Posted by: Colorado Alex In Exile at May 14, 2019 11:35 AM (SgjGX)

217
Xi apparently doesn't want to find out how bad things could get if tariffs shut them out of our market. OTOH, he can't look weak by caving to Trump, or he'll get the Ceaucescu treatment. He's caught between a rock and a hard place. Sucks to be him.
Posted by: pep

The DoJ should pick up the pace on raiding the offices of Chinese companies doing business here to show Xi it's not just tariffs he needs to worry about.

Posted by: Flawless Male Logic at May 14, 2019 11:35 AM (TAmPV)

218 154
Posted by: Bandersnatch at May 14, 2019 11:26 AM (fuK7c)
______

I agree with all those points, but still support the tariffs against China. Yes, doing so has an economic cost. But again, all strategies do.

In the 19th C there was a fair amount of British liberal (as was) opinion that trade should be immune to attack in war. Didn't fly, and won't.

Posted by: Eeyore at May 14, 2019 11:35 AM (VaN/j)

219 I'm not convinced that Trump is handling this the right way, but I am convinced that not changing things is bad for the US and ultimately the world economy.

Some people seem to think we're like Felix Leiter in Casino Royale, handing over millions because the USA has unlimited funds. That's not the case, the US has finite riches. They are very vast but at present we are inconceivably in debt because of idiotic policies in the past. That has to change, and Trump is trying to change that. It has to be done, MUST BE done.

Posted by: Christopher R Taylor at May 14, 2019 11:35 AM (39g3+)

220 197 have a Kahr 380 for deep concealment but it's too small, really.
Posted by: Mark Andrew Edwards, Angry, Radical, Anti-Liberal, and Dangerous: buy ammo at May 14, 2019 11:27 AM (bcbK

I have the Kel Tec PA3t in my pocket right now. If it's a back up , I don't mind 'too small' .
Posted by: Can't resist temptation at May 14, 2019 11:32 AM (lmPMy)

Kel Tec makes great pocket guns, I own more than a few. But I don't enjoy shooting them at the range, so I don't maintain good proficency. I mean, the Kahr is fine for what it is...its a .380 I can put in a wallet, but putting a 100 or 200 rounds through it is misery.

Dunno. I don't 'need' one but could be good for any 'ettes who want some iron come the burning times, if they don't already have their own.

Posted by: Mark Andrew Edwards, Angry, Radical, Anti-Liberal, and Dangerous: buy ammo at May 14, 2019 11:35 AM (bcbK8)

221 Protecting steel is essential for military purposes. Being dependent on foreign materials for military production is not a position you want to be in when a war breaks out.

Also, most likely you'd not want your steel to have come from a shithole with possible defects and no way to know its quality.

Posted by: BlackOrchid at May 14, 2019 11:35 AM (Rarvo)

222 >>I'm definitely a free-trader.
I'm also very strongly a "one set of rules" sort of person.
These two things are in conflict a lot of the time but I'd say that one-sided free trade really isn't free trade at all.
So I'll go with "one set of rules".

Yup, this.

Posted by: Lizzy at May 14, 2019 11:36 AM (W+vEI)

223 True, but the Mueller report was a nasty piece of work
Posted by: It's me donna at May 14, 2019 11:31 AM (O2RFr)
~~~~~

Especially Vol. 2. But in the end, all they got was a bunch of talking points for impeachment.

And as Mr. Straw has been telling us for months, the IG report is not going to indict anyone. All it will do is point out misdeeds, which it seems, has already been done, judging from all the other investigations going on quietly right under their noses.

Posted by: IrishEi at May 14, 2019 11:36 AM (NtglE)

224 Posted by: Christopher R Taylor at May 14, 2019 11:27 AM (39g3+)

We've exported wealth to economies for years.

Between foreign aid (40 Billion), the Trade deficit (600 billion), and remittances (60 billion) we give away about 700 Billion per year.

That's north of 2% of GDP, which means unless we are growing at MORE than 2%? like under Obama? We are actually not growing.

Posted by: Don Q. at May 14, 2019 11:36 AM (NgKpN)

225 I have a Kahr 380 for deep concealment but it's too small, really.

If you don't want pocketable, why no go with 9mm Lugar?

Posted by: Grump928(C) at May 14, 2019 11:33 AM

---

My Sig P365 fits in my holster for the Glock 42. I sometimes interchange the two guns. But the weight of 10 9mm rounds and the gun is a bit much for a regular concealed belt carry for me. Plus the grip on the Sig digs into my back when I am driving or sitting down.

Posted by: The Great White Scotsman at May 14, 2019 11:36 AM (JUOKG)

226 We are not choosing between a world with no tariffs and one with tariffs. We also aren't choosing between unilateral no trade barriers on our end or having some. We've always had trade barriers. We're choosing particular instances of employing trade barriers.

Yes, we've always had trade barriers. One of the largest barriers ever enacted was the Clean Air Act, that and other vehicle regulatory measures effectively forced automakers who wanted to sell in the US to build very different products to sell here. But the market was so vast, and the domestic competition so incompetent, that foreign automakers were mostly able to take over the industry.

Posted by: JEM at May 14, 2019 11:36 AM (8erNz)

227 Idealism gets people killed."

Would you mind engraving that on the mantle of every office doorway in DC?

Damn good sentiment there.

Posted by: Anon a mouse at May 14, 2019 11:36 AM (6qErC)

228 We're quite literally PAYING for "free import" from bad actors (as US taxpayers)

Please to explain. I am not arguing, I literally do not understand the point you're making.

Posted by: Bandersnatch at May 14, 2019 11:37 AM (fuK7c)

229 >>John Bonham was the bestest drummer EVAH

George Hurley

If we are talking Rock Drummers. Hurley kills most of them.
Danny Carey is no slouch, either.

Posted by: garrett at May 14, 2019 11:37 AM (Nud5/)

230 Somaya Khatry, one of the Gaza event's organizers, said it was aimed at delivering "the image of Gaza that reflects the (bad) face of Israel and its racist and aggressive occupation."
_______________

If the Jews' occupation of Gaza is racist and aggressive, what was the Arabs' occupation of the Jews' ancestral land? Sweet and gentle? Tolerant and inclusive? Why is one group's "occupation" of land it claims as its own the epitome of evil, while another group's is just and good?

Posted by: TrivialPursuer at May 14, 2019 11:37 AM (k4dH2)

231 Think of tariffs as being like, well, walls. Walls have their use. Sometimes walls have to be removed, or new ones erected, as situations change. But God help the fool who tears down walls just because "WALLS BAD". Because, like Chesterton reminds us, those walls were there for a reason. And often, though not always, for very good reasons.

Posted by: Brother Cavil at May 14, 2019 11:37 AM (AM1GF)

232 167 "Or destroy their ability to wage war, by shutting down supplies needed for the military. "

When the US was rebuilding its navy in the 1880's there was an instance that steel plate, armor, and guns be manufactured in the US, even if it would be cheaper to import. Even if the facilities for the armor and guns did not yet exist and part of the cost was so that manufacturers would build those facilities. Of course back then those men were patriotic.
Posted by: Mikey NTH - Party of One! Personalized Identity Group Kits Now at The Outrage Outlet! at May 14, 2019 11:28 AM (hLRSq)
________

In the 90s there was a brief period when the best armor was Harvey, an American process. But then Krupp improved it. (Contrary to what some misread sources as saying, Krupp was NOT providing armor for all navies; it was the process that they all used.)

It took us a long time to catch on on quick-firing guns, though. ("Rapid fire" as we called it.)

Posted by: Eeyore at May 14, 2019 11:37 AM (VaN/j)

233

Oh noes!!!! The markets are bouncing back today. We're all not going to die from the tariffs. A lot of sour faces on CNBC.

Posted by: TheQuietMan at May 14, 2019 11:38 AM (OLCnA)

234 The one Republican voting 'No.' Mitt "Jeff Flake" Romney.

OT but your comment reminded me that that asshat Romney also is blocking Trump's attempt to repeal the lightbulb ban

DICK

Posted by: BlackOrchid at May 14, 2019 11:38 AM (Rarvo)

235 Brit Hume said I need to watch this. My stomach is now in my throat...

http://tinyurl.com/y4lfo6dm

Posted by: Tami at May 14, 2019 11:38 AM (cF8AT)

236 234

Oh noes!!!! The markets are bouncing back today. We're all not going to die from the tariffs. A lot of sour faces on CNBC.
Posted by: TheQuietMan at May 14, 2019 11:38 AM (OLCnA)

==========

Are they not making money themselves?

Posted by: TheJamesMadison, Read Some Movie Thoughts at May 14, 2019 11:38 AM (9cans)

237 204 I have a Kahr 380 for deep concealment but it's too small, really.

If you don't want pocketable, why no go with 9mm Lugar?
Posted by: Grump928(C) at May 14, 2019 11:33 AM (iSh8b)

I have...17 9mm Luger pistols. I think.

I want something smallish but not Kahr 380 tiny.

Again, this is partly a spite buy but I also want to enjoy shooting it at the range.

Posted by: Mark Andrew Edwards, Angry, Radical, Anti-Liberal, and Dangerous: buy ammo at May 14, 2019 11:38 AM (bcbK8)

238 Oh noes!!!! The markets are bouncing back today. We're all not going to die from the tariffs. A lot of sour faces on CNBC.

they're worried

china finances a lot of people

Posted by: BlackOrchid at May 14, 2019 11:38 AM (Rarvo)

239 >> I may be the last free marketeer here. Tariffs are bad. Protectionism hurts the protectionist side.

================

Nah- I totally agree with you. With one modification: tariffs are bad and hurt the protectionist, if the other side retaliates. If only we could convince the Chinese of that truth, this whole war would end. China has substantial tariff barriers (and always has had in the modern era), which we tolerated when their middle class market was small and insignificant (in purchasing power terms). Now, they need to open their markets. PDJT really has no other available tools to use to make this happen, so I think we need to suffer through this battle.

Posted by: Huck Follywood, the Bwana returns at May 14, 2019 11:38 AM (Z216Q)

240 How can you have free trade with a Communist/Oligarchy style government anyway?
No, better to have tariffs, and a strong US now that can weaken and liberate China later.

Posted by: Iblis at May 14, 2019 11:38 AM (9221z)

241 Tariffs are analogous to chemotherapy. It's very bad for you, and you'd rather not have to resort to it, but if you need it, you're glad to have it. It's the only way to solve the problem.

We need it.

Posted by: pep at May 14, 2019 11:39 AM (wW03z)

242 Wishbone was the best PBS kids' show.

Posted by: bluebell at May 14, 2019 11:24 AM (aXucN)

Amen.

I never liked Arthur for my kids because, along with DW getting away with stuff, his friend was a ball of neuroses who was enabled endlessly in his neurotic behavior as if that was the only sensible way to treat him.

Posted by: Polliwog the 'Ette at May 14, 2019 11:39 AM (uquGJ)

243
Kel Tec makes great pocket guns, I own more than a few. But I don't enjoy shooting them at the range, so I don't maintain good proficency. I mean, the Kahr is fine for what it is...its a .380 I can put in a wallet, but putting a 100 or 200 rounds through it is misery.

-----

This. I pocket carry mostly because of work. My little TCP 380 was great carry, but no fun to shoot. It was the gun I carried the most and shot the least. I recently picked up a Spectrum which is slightly larger than the TCP but much easier to shoot. I did have a couple of FTF and FTE's that Im hoping are just part of the breakin. If I can another few hundred rounds thru without a hiccup.... Ill make my ED pocket carry.

Posted by: fixerupper at May 14, 2019 11:39 AM (vIjh1)

244 I see rachel madcow is getting in on the hysteria of Trump weaponizing the DOJ. She is demanding an investigation into the investigation of the investigation.

We have crossed the sanity event horizon people.

Posted by: The Great White Scotsman at May 14, 2019 11:40 AM (JUOKG)

245 And as Mr. Straw has been telling us for months, the IG report is not going to indict anyone. All it will do is point out misdeeds, which it seems, has already been done, judging from all the other investigations going on quietly right under their noses.

This is quite true, but we might actually have an AG now who cares enough about the situation, and may be just pissed off enough about the treatment he's getting, to do something about it.

I mean, I would love to see multiple Obama Cabinet officials indicted. I would love to see Obama himself rocking a yellow jumpsuit. But the case for that would have to be overwhelming.

Posted by: JEM at May 14, 2019 11:40 AM (8erNz)

246 That's north of 2% of GDP, which means unless we are growing at MORE than 2%? like under Obama? We are actually not growing.

And we should cut back on those payouts. Again, most of them are cold war carryovers that should be dialed back. Too much of the world is dependent on US funding and that cannot continue.

I get it, its part of our foreign policy. Getting people dependent on US treasure means we can apply pressure and influence them, or so the theory goes. But since we never, ever actually reduce payments the threat is empty.

I really like Rush's sh*tlist idea where nations who are really hostile or insulting toward the US stop getting our benefits. You treat us like crap, fine, we cut you off. Deal with it.

Posted by: Christopher R Taylor at May 14, 2019 11:40 AM (39g3+)

247 I want something smallish"

Perhaps the LCP/LCR Rugers? They're smallish, reasonably easy to handle, and mine have been, well... bulletproof.

*sorry. Grins*

Posted by: Anon a mouse at May 14, 2019 11:40 AM (6qErC)

248 We have crossed the sanity event horizon people.

That happened for me when Obama was reelected.

Posted by: JEM at May 14, 2019 11:40 AM (8erNz)

249 One of the big L Libertarian impulses is to strive for the best/freest/most efficient, and to presume one knows what that is. The little L libertarian is to let people make their own decisions, individually and collectively. Sometimes good, sometimes bad, but generally good enough. And I think good enough is the best one should hope for.

Posted by: Grump928(C) blurts at May 14, 2019 11:41 AM (iSh8b)

250
Coming from one of the most anti-American "hate machines."
Posted by: It's me donna

But their hate is a good clean hate.

Posted by: Bertram Cabot, Jr. at May 14, 2019 11:41 AM (aKsyK)

251 Tariffs are analogous to chemotherapy."

A rather good analogy.

Posted by: Anon a mouse at May 14, 2019 11:41 AM (6qErC)

252 Mark, the G42 is the only G I really like. Accurate, and surprisingly soft shooting. It's a G, so you have to do the standard stuff you have to do on a G, e.g. sights, etc.

However, for the envelope size, a P365 is more capable and almost 2x capacity.

Posted by: Duncanthrax at May 14, 2019 11:41 AM (meVhc)

253 226 I have a Kahr 380 for deep concealment but it's too small, really.

If you don't want pocketable, why no go with 9mm Lugar?

Posted by: Grump928(C) at May 14, 2019 11:33 AM

---

My Sig P365 fits in my holster for the Glock 42. I sometimes interchange the two guns. But the weight of 10 9mm rounds and the gun is a bit much for a regular concealed belt carry for me. Plus the grip on the Sig digs into my back when I am driving or sitting down.
Posted by: The Great White Scotsman at May 14, 2019 11:36 AM (JUOKG)

Heard lots of good things about the new, fixed SIG P365. But don't really want one. I own two SIGs now and I growl at them, even if I do shoot them.

My daily carry is usually a lot bigger than the 365, so weight isn't a huge issue to me. And I have true pocket options.

Just thinking about Glock 42 or a slightly larger 380 like the Baby Rock or as a Moron mentioned, maybe the M&P 380

Posted by: Mark Andrew Edwards, Angry, Radical, Anti-Liberal, and Dangerous: buy ammo at May 14, 2019 11:41 AM (bcbK8)

254 Broadly speaking, a strict no-tariff stance is the nearest economic equivalent to pacifism.

It's simply bass-ackwards, wrong, doesn't work in the real world, and is arguably morally problematic due to the very foreseeable consequences.

Tariffs are wrong the same way that killing people is always wrong - sure, it is, until it's not.

Posted by: lurker (the other one) at May 14, 2019 11:41 AM (67XdO)

255 >>Brit Hume said I need to watch this. My stomach is now in my throat...

http://tinyurl.com/y4lfo6dm

Both of those guys have a ". . .and he died doing what he loves" in their future.

Posted by: Lizzy at May 14, 2019 11:42 AM (W+vEI)

256 I see rachel madcow is getting in on the hysteria of Trump weaponizing the DOJ. She is demanding an investigation into the investigation of the investigation.

----

Wouldnt that be..... ummmmmm...... OBSTRUCTION??

Posted by: fixerupper at May 14, 2019 11:42 AM (vIjh1)

257 But their hate is a good clean hate.

Talking about the Never Trumpers?

Posted by: Anna Puma at May 14, 2019 11:42 AM (Av3cU)

258 Blanket tariffs are definitely bad. Targeted tariffs possibly ok. Ish.

Posted by: RonCo Pocket Theologian at May 14, 2019 11:42 AM (IiR2y)

259 232 Think of tariffs as being like, well, walls. Walls have their use. Sometimes walls have to be removed, or new ones erected, as situations change. But God help the fool who tears down walls just because "WALLS BAD". Because, like Chesterton reminds us, those walls were there for a reason. And often, though not always, for very good reasons.

Posted by: Brother Cavil at May 14, 2019 11:37 AM (AM1GF)

Disagree they're often for good reason. Tariffs like most business regulations tend to arise from the group that has a consistent and large interest in them. That is corporations. Sure we should subject them to analysis first but they don't tend to be for good reasons.

Posted by: Someguy at May 14, 2019 11:42 AM (sqdLZ)

260 I want something smallish but not Kahr 380 tiny.

Again, this is partly a spite buy but I also want to enjoy shooting it at the range.

Posted by: Mark Andrew Edwards, Angry, Radical, Anti-Liberal, and Dangerous: buy ammo at May 14, 2019 11:38 AM

---
If you aren't worried about concealment the go with the EZ Shield in .380. If you want something a bit smaller then the Glock 42 would do it. I routinely take it to the range and dump 50-75 rounds through it with no problems.

Posted by: The Great White Scotsman at May 14, 2019 11:42 AM (JUOKG)

261 My EDC pocket pistols are light and small and all too snappy, with too heavy a trigger pull for enjoyment. But I'm betting that if I had to pull, I wouldn't notice any of this.

Posted by: Grump928(C) blurts at May 14, 2019 11:43 AM (iSh8b)

262 I note two threads of argument here.

1. Tariffs are bad, per se, but the cost of other goods.

2. Tariffs are actually good for the economy.

I've never been convinced by arguments for (2), but find (1) obviously true.

Posted by: Eeyore at May 14, 2019 11:43 AM (VaN/j)

263 The economic argument against tariffs is clear and unambiguous and damning.

I will accept that if you will ask someone why it is okay to put tariffs on our own businesses via taxes and regulation that we do not impose on foreign companies. By all means, get rid of the tariffs.

Posted by: t-bird at May 14, 2019 11:43 AM (xSo9G)

264 P365 is a great concept but SIG screwed the pooch by introducing parts from India. India has one of the worst track records with that sort of manufacturing out of the last... oh, I don't know, 2 centuries or so.

And it showed in teething problems for the pistol.

Posted by: lurker (the other one) at May 14, 2019 11:43 AM (67XdO)

265 Both of those guys have a ". . .and he died doing what he loves" in their future.

Posted by: Lizzy at May 14, 2019 11:42 AM (W+vEI)

Right?! How does one even come up with that idea? Slow day at work?

Posted by: Tami at May 14, 2019 11:43 AM (cF8AT)

266
Are they not making money themselves?
Posted by: TheJamesMadison, Read Some Movie Thoughts at May 14, 2019 11:38 AM (9cans)

Agenda uber alles comrade. And Bloomberg "news" is like watching the Daily Worker TV. All a bunch of champagne socialists

Posted by: TheQuietMan at May 14, 2019 11:43 AM (OLCnA)

267 >>That happened for me when Obama was reelected.
Posted by: JEM at May 14, 2019 11:40 AM (8erNz)

Concur. We weren't helped by the fact that we were running two mutants against him, but yes, that Americans bothered to vote for him told me that we'd reached/passed peak dumb.

Posted by: Zod at May 14, 2019 11:43 AM (Bdeb0)

268 All else being equal tariffs are not a good thing. But the Chinese lie cheat and steal, so in this case they are warranted.

Posted by: Lurking Lurker at May 14, 2019 11:43 AM (FiUMj)

269 Please to explain. I am not arguing, I literally do not understand the point you're making.

Well, one way is by subsidizing postage for Amazon, a good deal of their products come from China. Someone pays for the cheap freight/shipping. It's US taxpayers, as usual!

there are other shipping subsidies to encourage "trade with china" and we are on the hook

nothing in life is free. someone is paying. in The Current Year that's often US taxpayers.

for US elites, they don't care as long as China's checks aren't bouncing. I want those checks to start bouncing.

The other side of that is, we pay - again as US taxpayers - for all our former production employees who are now out of jobs, addicted, and ill.

We're IMPORTING produce from china! There is no way that is actually "saving money." It's shifting costs is what it is. most of the "chinese import" savings are. Shifting costs onto you and me, directly or indirectly.

Posted by: BlackOrchid at May 14, 2019 11:43 AM (Rarvo)

270 We need it.

Maybe we need the French approach. The next time a shipment of iPhones hits US shores you tie it up with all kinds of inspections, shuffling paperwork up and down the bureaucracy. Just make sure there's no Apple product in stores for a couple months.

Posted by: JEM at May 14, 2019 11:43 AM (8erNz)

271
>>John Bonham was the bestest drummer EVAH
George Hurley

If we are talking Rock Drummers. Hurley kills most of them. Danny Carey is no slouch, either.

Posted by: garrett at May 14, 2019 11:37 AM (Nud5/)

In the all around best drummer category I like Anton Fig.

Posted by: Flawless Male Logic at May 14, 2019 11:43 AM (TAmPV)

272 Discussing tariffs is a good intellectual exercise but I've resolved not to worry about anything I can't control or effect. I'm now more about preparing for worst case scenarios and hoping they don't occur.

Posted by: Can't resist temptation at May 14, 2019 11:44 AM (lmPMy)

273 >>I see rachel madcow is getting in on the hysteria of Trump weaponizing the DOJ. She is demanding an investigation into the investigation of the investigation.

We have crossed the sanity event horizon people.
- - -
Muller: An investigation

Barr: An investigation of the investigation

Maddow: "I DEMND and investigation of the investigation of the investigation!!!!!"

Who's weaponizing investigations?

Posted by: Lizzy at May 14, 2019 11:44 AM (W+vEI)

274 How can you have free trade with a Communist/Oligarchy style government anyway?
No, better to have tariffs, and a strong US now that can weaken and liberate China later.

Which should be the point in the matter.

The US attempts to guarantee a First World experience to all who are within her borders. A First World experience requires a lot of wealth, and as our feckless saboteurs (aka Politicians) continue to heap burden upon burden upon the Productive class, then the US will discover that her wealth is being consumed for nothing more than subsidizing the Third World.

Furthermore, the US is the world's sole security and stabilization force, and that literally costs trillions, whether through military, foreign aid, monetary backstop for IMF and World Bank, etc.

The Productive US citizen has responsibilities and obligations that no other person has in this world, so damn it, pay the Tariff if no one else is going to chip in.

Posted by: Blue Bird of F'ing Joy at May 14, 2019 11:44 AM (lD3vL)

275 Buddy Rich.

Posted by: Can't resist temptation at May 14, 2019 11:44 AM (lmPMy)

276 "And shit countries pollute. Yes they do. So should we OSHA and EPA the entire world? If so, why us? Maybe the EU should set the rules for the whole world to live by."
----

Maybe we should set tariffs high enough to offset their economic advantage? American companies will never compete with slaves chained to a table making $5 a day. "Free Trade" is a scam designed to break our sovereignty and right of self determination. It isn't any more complicated than that.

After World War II, West German factories would display signs saying "Export or Die", even they understood this. Our nation simply can't borrow money from the Chinese at interest, to buy Chinese goods, or to give economic aid to Gutemala or whoever. It isn't sustainable. We have to take in more than we spend out. It's only since the advent of "economic experts" from Harvard and Yale, that all the normal rules were suspended and we've been lectured on how great it will be when our industrial base is hollowed out, among other things.

Posted by: Common Tater at May 14, 2019 11:44 AM (Cel0r)

277 John Bonham was the bestest drummer EVAH
George Hurley

If we are talking Rock Drummers. Hurley kills most of them. Danny Carey is no slouch, either.

Posted by: garrett at May 14, 2019 11:37 AM (Nud5/)

In the all around best drummer category I like Anton Fig.
Posted by: Flawless Male Logic at May 14, 2019 11:43 AM (TAmPV)

------

Ill take Neal Peart

Posted by: fixerupper at May 14, 2019 11:44 AM (vIjh1)

278
The leftist cocksucker totalitarians are now going after a 14 yr old girl on Youtube.

Why? Because she's a "foul-mouthed right winger."

So, the Left, led by the fake "journalists" at Buzzardfeed, are trying to get her banned.

Support "Soph's" channel.

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCT7BLBDnD-wEXeqZSg24aJw

Posted by: Soothsayer'c at May 14, 2019 11:44 AM (mjKr1)

279 We're IMPORTING produce from china! There is no way that is actually "saving money." It's shifting costs is what it is. most of the "chinese import" savings are. Shifting costs onto you and me, directly or indirectly.

We're importing all kinds of food and drug ingredients from China that show up in supposedly US-made products.

Posted by: JEM at May 14, 2019 11:45 AM (8erNz)

280 I note two threads of argument here.

1. Tariffs are bad, per se, but the cost of other goods.

2. Tariffs are actually good for the economy. "

Or 3 - Tariffs are a necessary evil.

Posted by: Anon a mouse at May 14, 2019 11:45 AM (6qErC)

281 @realDonaldTrump: "We are the piggy bank that everyone likes to take advantage of... and we can't let that happen anymore."

Posted by: Deep State is In DEEP SHIT at May 14, 2019 11:45 AM (BqBId)

282 Tariffs are bad. Protectionism hurts the protectionist side.

***

Depends on what you're after though. If you want to freely trade, sure. If you want to slow down the trade and increase domestic production it's just another tool.

Posted by: Total Control Racist at May 14, 2019 11:46 AM (/kao1)

283 Rachel Madcow is crazy. She compares investigating DOJ crimes to some sort of Thunderdome distopian world, where might makes right. The idea actual crimes were committed (and egregious ones so ugly they might be unprecedented in our modern history) does not even enter his fevered brain.

Posted by: Huck Follywood, the Bwana returns at May 14, 2019 11:46 AM (Z216Q)

284 Neko-grrl needs food, jya ne minna.

Posted by: Anna Puma at May 14, 2019 11:46 AM (Av3cU)

285 It's investigations, all the way down!

Posted by: Burger Chef at May 14, 2019 11:46 AM (RuIsu)

286 I think there's a lot of wisdom in the following words if you think about it.....

Aperture ScienceWe do what we mustbecause we can.For the good of all of us
Except the ones who are dead
But there's no sense crying over every mistake
You just keep on trying till you run out of cake
And the Science gets done
And you make a neat gun
For the people who are still alive

Posted by: SSBN 656 (G) at May 14, 2019 11:46 AM (jjaLl)

287 mr ratburn is now ghey and getting married on the children's show "arthur" do they have to ruin everything?

Crap. My money was on Francene.

(*tears up betting slip*)

Posted by: The Margins at May 14, 2019 11:46 AM (Oc6vY)

288 "The American people have been systematically through weak presidents
and bad faith negotiation been put under greater and greater attack by
foreign forces in the name of humbling the US and globalism."
It's worth remembering that after WWII, the US was the last man standing. We accepted unequal trading agreements to revive the economy of Europe. And it worked.
Likewise, it's worth remembering that when Nixon made his opening to China in the early 1970s, China was North Korea writ large. The US opened itself to Chinese trade with the goal to revive their economy and, as a result, liberalize them politically. And it worked, to a large extent. China is far more prosperous and far more open than it was 45 years ago.
But times change, situations change. The plans succeeded: he economies of Europe and China have been revived. The time has come for Europe and China to take the next step, and learn to act as one among equals. Our advantage is that, unlike Europe and China, the US is large self-sustaining: we have the resources of food, energy, materials, and manpower to go it alone if need be, while China and Europe do not. (There are a few exceptions, such as rare earths, but for the most part that is the case.) We certainly don't want to force China into a corner - we tried that with Japan in the 1930s, and that did not turn out well. But the days of Uncle Sugar are over.

Posted by: Brown Line at May 14, 2019 11:46 AM (S6ArX)

289 If the Jews' occupation of Gaza is racist and aggressive, what was the Arabs' occupation of the Jews' ancestral land? Sweet and gentle? Tolerant and inclusive? Why is one group's "occupation" of land it claims as its own the epitome of evil, while another group's is just and good?

Posted by: TrivialPursuer at May 14, 2019 11:37 AM (k4dH2)

Technically they were Byzantine lands at the time.

Ancestry is a bad metric for territorial claims because we tend to share millions of common ancestors. Arabs and Israelis and Middle Easterners? Almost all certainly descended from Charlemagne.

Whoever wins gets it.

Posted by: Someguy at May 14, 2019 11:47 AM (sqdLZ)

290 Drummers:

Jason Bitner> Mike Portnoy

But I'll always love Dave Lombardo. Dude's a mess but keeps perfect time. It really made Slayer what they were.

Posted by: Pug Mahon at May 14, 2019 11:47 AM (xPJvm)

291
Whats up with Washington State gun laws 1 July?

Posted by: Joe Blowme at May 14, 2019 11:47 AM (n2qRY)

292 A tarriff is a tax paid for by consumers. So the question then becomes is it worth paying those taxes to protect industries from foreign competition.

Posted by: Lurking Lurker at May 14, 2019 11:47 AM (FiUMj)

293 Posted by: fixerupper at May 14, 2019 11:44 AM (vIjh1)
*******
All drummers started using Double Bass Drums & now Double Bass Pedals, because they couldn't do with 1 Bass Drum what Bonzo could do

Posted by: Deep State is In DEEP SHIT at May 14, 2019 11:47 AM (BqBId)

294 And I detest the term "fair" (outside of weather).

If you're in a "fair" fight you f***d up.

Posted by: Anon a mouse at May 14, 2019 11:47 AM (6qErC)

295 >>Right?! How does one even come up with that idea? Slow day at work?

Yeah, saw Joe Rogan interview some famous base jumping guy and he said he finally quit when a best friend died because the sport kills anyone who does it long enough. IIRC, every guy who has developed one of those suits, each new iteration on that idea, has died. They.all.die.doing.this.

Posted by: Lizzy at May 14, 2019 11:47 AM (W+vEI)

296 Portnoy & his Replacement Mike Mangini

Posted by: Deep State is In DEEP SHIT at May 14, 2019 11:48 AM (BqBId)

297 If we are talking all drummers, I'll take Blakey.

That guy was fucking savage.

Posted by: garrett at May 14, 2019 11:48 AM (Nud5/)

298 Tariffs, IG, Prosecutors, Lock em up

Hey how about my Yankees?

Posted by: Nevergiveup at May 14, 2019 11:48 AM (FwN37)

299 -
--

If you don't want pocketable, why no go with 9mm Lugar?

Posted by: Grump928(C) at May 14, 2019 11:33 AM (iSh8b)

I have...17 9mm Luger pistols. I think ....

Posted by: Mark Andrew Edwards, Angry, Radical, Anti-Liberal, and Dangerous: buy ammo at May 14, 2019 11:38 AM

------------------------------

So THAT'S where they all went. HOARDER!

Posted by: irright at May 14, 2019 11:48 AM (pMGkg)

300 The idea actual crimes were committed (and egregious ones so ugly they might be unprecedented in our modern history) does not even enter his fevered brain.

Is 'his' Madcow's preferred pronoun?

Posted by: Duncanthrax at May 14, 2019 11:48 AM (meVhc)

301 All drummers started using Double Bass Drums & now Double Bass Pedals, because they couldn't do with 1 Bass Drum what Bonzo could do
Posted by: Deep State is In DEEP SHIT at May 14, 2019 11:47 AM (BqBId)

----

THIS is about us...... right??

Posted by: Nine Armed Def Leppard at May 14, 2019 11:48 AM (vIjh1)

302 >>I'll always love Dave Lombardo.

Best Double Bass in History.

Posted by: garrett at May 14, 2019 11:48 AM (Nud5/)

303 Investigate Republicans- Good

Investigate Democrats - Bad

They have always been spoiled children that haven't fully developed cognitive skills and always will be.

Posted by: Can't resist temptation at May 14, 2019 11:48 AM (lmPMy)

304 Support "Soph's" channel.

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCT7BLBDnD-wEXeqZSg24aJw

She's great.

Posted by: JEM at May 14, 2019 11:49 AM (8erNz)

305 Soph is amazing and hilarious

Am glad Buzzfeed is giving her all this exposure, nice little brownshirts that they are!

That kid gives me hope for the future - my own do as well. One is writing a "persuasive essay" on why there are only two genders.

Brave huh? Where the hell are we as a society where such a thing is brave?!?!

Posted by: BlackOrchid at May 14, 2019 11:49 AM (Rarvo)

306 As Charlie Berens would say "Oh My Gosh!"

https://twitter.com/LauraAJarrett/status/1128309617014886400

Posted by: IrishEi at May 14, 2019 11:49 AM (NtglE)

307 Willowed but did want to note that NYC quit dumping trash in the ocean in the 30's before there was plastic.
Posted by: Can't resist temptation at May 14, 2019 11:06 AM (lmPMy)

I thought that went on until at least the 1970's?

And tariffs are a tool in the toolbox. Sometimes you have a job that can be done by only that one tool.

Posted by: Alberta Oil Peon at May 14, 2019 11:49 AM (7njPr)

308 /sock

Posted by: Bob the Bilderberg at May 14, 2019 11:50 AM (Oc6vY)

309 I have...17 9mm Luger pistols. I think ....

Posted by: Mark Andrew Edwards
-----

Um...you don't live in L.A., by chance?

Posted by: Mike Hammer, etc., etc. at May 14, 2019 11:50 AM (xSo9G)

310 THE DRUM THUNDER SUITE

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SOF56bHJ8TM

Posted by: ART BLAKEY and the JAZZ MESSENGERS at May 14, 2019 11:50 AM (Nud5/)

311 @54

I means they are going to investigate the Russian operation from an instigation and authorization standpoint.

If done honestly, it will sweep up operators in the CIA, FBI, DOJ, State, key players in the Obama administration up to and including Obama himself.

Let justice be one though the heavens fall.

Posted by: John The Savage at May 14, 2019 11:50 AM (XwB3f)

312 Speaking of tariffs....importing a car from Canada, that was not built in Canada has a 2.5% duty. However, importing a pickup truck is a 25% duty. It's stuff like that which is stupid.

Posted by: Lurking Lurker at May 14, 2019 11:50 AM (FiUMj)

313 I'm the best one arm drummer !

Posted by: Rick Allen at May 14, 2019 11:50 AM (lmPMy)

314 309 I have...17 9mm Luger pistols. I think ....

Posted by: Mark Andrew Edwards

Dude. You're my hero.

Posted by: Insomniac at May 14, 2019 11:50 AM (NWiLs)

315
This girl is smarter than all of us combined. And she's not afraid of the Left:

https://youtu.be/OdaUDeAGIck?t=8m

Posted by: Soothsayer'c at May 14, 2019 11:51 AM (mjKr1)

316 If anyone is a fan of the show 'Line of Duty' (Brit cop show) Season 5 is out....and I binged watched the whole thing yesterday...now I'm mad at myself. Be another year or more before the next season...if there is one.

Posted by: Tami at May 14, 2019 11:51 AM (cF8AT)

317 We have outsourced manufacturing jobs......

and workplace injuries.......

and pollution........

and union featherbedding.

Posted by: Vlad the implaer, whittling away like mad at May 14, 2019 11:51 AM (7Nf2U)

318 I love drums. My favorite part of any marching band is when the music stops and the drum corps does their thing. Kick ass.

Posted by: Pug Mahon at May 14, 2019 11:51 AM (xPJvm)

319 "Capitalism" is a word invented by Karl Marx, in order to deride what we all know as free commerce, the enemy of communism.

Posted by: navybrat, occasional commentater at May 14, 2019 11:52 AM (w7KSn)

320 Why is this even a question?

Posted by: Keith Moon at May 14, 2019 11:52 AM (fuK7c)

321 Favorite drummer by far: The Muppet's Animal

Posted by: irright at May 14, 2019 11:52 AM (pMGkg)

322 "I have...17 9mm Luger pistols. I think ...."

That's a good start.

Posted by: A Texan at May 14, 2019 11:52 AM (meVhc)

323 273 Muller: An investigation

Barr: An investigation of the investigation

Maddow: "I DEMND and investigation of the investigation of the investigation!!!!!"

Who's weaponizing investigations?

maybe we should investigate to find out.

Posted by: Anachronda at May 14, 2019 11:52 AM (sGtp+)

324 Take a good hard look at the M&P 380 Shield if you want to avoid a micro 380.
Posted by: Creed at May 14, 2019 11:30 AM (vIjh1)

Oh, good point. Those are cheap right now, too.
Posted by: Mark Andrew Edwards, Angry, Radical, Anti-Liberal, and Dangerous: buy ammo at May 14, 2019 11:32 AM (bcbK

---------------
This is one of my carry guns as well. I saw one so cheap recently, I considered getting a spare.

Posted by: BunkerInTheBurbs, still needs a new Nic! at May 14, 2019 11:52 AM (9dQxE)

325 Rock Drummers, um Keith Moon, Neal Peart, Ginger Baker, Nick Mason, Terry Bozzio, Ian Paice, Bill Bruford, And Stewart Copeland make my list. Bonham is kinda sloppy, I never was very impressed with him. For some demented, inconceivable reason, people put Ringo Starr on "best drummer" lists and he was freaking awful.

Posted by: Christopher R Taylor at May 14, 2019 11:52 AM (39g3+)

326 OK james baker is getting ahead of the investigation. He is saying, sure they will find out we made plenty of mistakes in the investigation. IG's always find mistakes.*

But we had to do it in order to save the Country.

*IG's always find "mistakes" because they only go looking for something after a whole bunch of complaints have been made.

Posted by: The Great White Scotsman at May 14, 2019 11:53 AM (JUOKG)

327 I note two threads of argument here.

1. Tariffs are bad, per se, but the cost of other goods.

2. Tariffs are actually good for the economy. "

------------------

"Tariffs good for the economy", said no economist ever. The current tariffs, said Larry Kudlow two days ago, are being paid for 100% by the American consumer. The only "benefit" is that the higher prices mean fewer units sold, so Chinese manufacturers are suffering through a shrinking market and in a trade war,where you want the other side to suffer more than you do, that's the goal.

PDJT uses these tools to force China to open its domestic markets, and I can't think of anything else he could do. If China removes its longstanding tariff barriers (and stops stealing IP from American companies) PDJT will drop tariffs pretty quickly, I'll bet you.

Posted by: Huck Follywood, the Bwana returns at May 14, 2019 11:53 AM (Z216Q)

328 312 Speaking of tariffs....importing a car from Canada, that was not built in Canada has a 2.5% duty. However, importing a pickup truck is a 25% duty. It's stuff like that which is stupid.

You can blame Reagan for that one. The 'chicken tax'.

Ford was bringing in Transit Connects (built in Turkey) as 'passenger vehicles' with seats and windows, and when they got to the US they'd rip out and trash the seats and windows. It was cheaper to do that then pay the chicken tax.

Posted by: JEM at May 14, 2019 11:53 AM (8erNz)

329 >>A tarriff is a tax paid for by consumers. So the question then becomes is it worth paying those taxes to protect industries from foreign competition.

While this is true to a point it leaves off half the argument.

What is the cost to the consumer of dealing with trade partners who don't follow the agreed upon rules, implement import tariffs and quotas, steal IP, devalue their currency arbitrarily, provide government subsidies, etc.

Trump has an exceptionally talented and knowledgeable team working the trade issues in my opinion who understand not just the cost of US tariffs but all the other less visible costs we have been dealing with for decades. This isn't like Obama rolling out some State Department hump to do a trade deal, these are very successful financial killers.

Free trade only works when both sides play by the same rules. Claiming to be a free trader while ignoring the outrageous behavior of other countries is not the moral high ground, it isn't even free trade, it is ignoring reality.

Posted by: JackStraw at May 14, 2019 11:53 AM (/tuJf)

330 >>319 "Capitalism" is a word invented by Karl Marx,
Posted by: navybrat, occasional commentater at May 14, 2019 11:52 AM (w7KSn)

Speaking of, Netflix has a good series on: "Trotsky." It's Russian, so you've got to contend with subtitles, but it's worth it.

Posted by: Zod at May 14, 2019 11:53 AM (Bdeb0)

331 I'm back baby!

Posted by: Anthony Weiner 2020 - Hard Worker for Harder Times at May 14, 2019 11:53 AM (6+l/D)

332 This girl is smarter than all of us combined. And she's not afraid of the Left:

https://youtu.be/OdaUDeAGIck?t=8m

Posted by: Soothsayer'c at May 14, 2019 11:51 AM (mjKr1)

------

Its because she's Maud Dibs Little sister, Alia.

Posted by: fixerupper at May 14, 2019 11:53 AM (vIjh1)

333 No one expects the Trumpian Inquisition!

Posted by: Grump928(C) at May 14, 2019 11:54 AM (iSh8b)

334 Oh, honorable mention to Hal Blaine, although he didn't do rock exclusively. Member of the Wrecking Crew, incredible drummer but very broad range of styles and work.

Favorite drummer by far: The Muppet's Animal

Thumbs up

Oh, and Mick Fleetwood should be on my list, too.

Posted by: Christopher R Taylor at May 14, 2019 11:54 AM (39g3+)

335 312 Speaking of tariffs....importing a car from Canada, that was not built in Canada has a 2.5% duty. However, importing a pickup truck is a 25% duty. It's stuff like that which is stupid.

easily worked around. just bolt some seats in the back.

Posted by: Subaru Brat at May 14, 2019 11:54 AM (sGtp+)

336 They.all.die.doing.this.
Posted by: Lizzy
---------

Yeah. I quit whitewater kayaking after a friend, an extremely experienced paddler, got entrapped in his boat wrapped around a rock, and drowned.

Posted by: Mike Hammer, etc., etc. at May 14, 2019 11:54 AM (CDGwz)

337 You can't fault China for having a more liberal (small l) economy. Lower taxes, no bullshit regulations. That is a competitive advantage. Putting up tariffs to fight that is wrong.

Putting up tariffs to fight currency manipulation and ip theft...legit. Trump needs to do a better job outlining it, even though most Americans would just go huh?

Posted by: Lurking Lurker at May 14, 2019 11:54 AM (FiUMj)

338 Why is it that the people who are bitching about Trump "starting a war" and "ruining the economy" over tariffs are the very same people you will find protesting the opening of a new Walmart and promoting "Buy Local" to prohibit normals from buying bulk crap at cheap prices?

Posted by: red speck at May 14, 2019 11:55 AM (6Krd7)

339 PDJT uses these tools to force China to open its domestic markets, and I can't think of anything else he could do. If China removes its longstanding tariff barriers (and stops stealing IP from American companies) PDJT will drop tariffs pretty quickly, I'll bet you.

The day China stops stealing IP from foreign companies we'll need sheepdog drones to keep our flying pigs under control.

Either that or they'll have bought everyone and there will be NO non-Chinese IP.

Posted by: JEM at May 14, 2019 11:55 AM (8erNz)

340 Is 'his' Madcow's preferred pronoun?

Posted by: Duncanthrax at May 14, 2019 11:48 AM (meVhc)

================
I typed that in error, but when I saw it I decided I was fine with it!

Posted by: Huck Follywood, the Bwana returns at May 14, 2019 11:55 AM (Z216Q)

341 You can blame Reagan for that one. The 'chicken tax'."

You misspelled LBJ.

Posted by: Anon a mouse at May 14, 2019 11:55 AM (6qErC)

342 Spain has recalled a frigate accompanying a US aircraft carrier to the Middle East because of rising tensions between Washington and Tehran, the defence ministry said Tuesday.

Cowards

Posted by: Nevergiveup at May 14, 2019 11:55 AM (FwN37)

343 Its because she's Maud Dibs Little sister, Alia.

She's gonna slip you the Gom Jabbar halfway through her reading.

Posted by: Christopher R Taylor at May 14, 2019 11:55 AM (39g3+)

344 Yeah. I quit whitewater kayaking after a friend, an extremely experienced paddler, got entrapped in his boat wrapped around a rock, and drowned.

Dangerous technicals is why God gave us fiberglass boats.

Posted by: Grump928(C) at May 14, 2019 11:56 AM (iSh8b)

345 But we had to do it in order to save the Country.

heard a lot of that lately. That and the "probable cause" cause Orange man bad

Posted by: It's me donna at May 14, 2019 11:56 AM (O2RFr)

346 I usually hate political rants on youtube, I don't want to sit there and listen to someone talking, but when I turned on one of Soph's rants, gonna be just a minnit, to see what it was like - I sat there with my jaw open for the entire 10 minutes or whatever. She's astounding.

How can someone so young have "gotten" so much? I had to live a long time before I started to figure a lot of that out.

Posted by: Tom Servo at May 14, 2019 11:56 AM (Kpl3J)

347 A tarriff is a tax paid for by consumers. So the question then becomes is it worth paying those taxes to protect industries from foreign competition.

Posted by: Lurking Lurker

Which do you prefer, higher prices and decent jobs, or lower prices and crap jobs if any? There's a cost to ANY choice. The question is, who bears it?

Posted by: Brother Cavil at May 14, 2019 11:56 AM (AM1GF)

348 National Tariffs are a tax exactly like state (province, commonwealth) Sales taxes. A sales tax imposed on cupcakes, sugary soda pop, or sumptaury clothing. The fees will be paid by consumers and will shift consumption from cupcakes to "muffins", soda to sweet tea, and from zoot suits to fashion jeggings. The revenues collected will never be as lucrative as projected -- because of the shift; the undesired behaviors will hardly be affected because of the valid substitutions; and there will arise an underground black market supplied by the original producers, distributed by criminals, and paid for by the die-hard consumers who will break the law rather than amend their ways. In the case of tariffs the Chinese "cupcakes" whatever they are will be laundered via Vietnam or the Philippines.

This is all NOT to argue against Trump's tariffs. Fine. He should try it, just like NYC tries to fight obesity with sugar taxes. Try. What the hell. BUT, the economists who held silent during sugar tax news and now cry loudly about tariffs primarily shout out their hypocrisy.

Posted by: pouncer at May 14, 2019 11:56 AM (L/ssi)

349 >> I quit whitewater kayaking after a friend, an extremely experienced paddler, got entrapped in his boat wrapped around a rock, and drowned.

I fucking hate Kayakers.

Posted by: garrett at May 14, 2019 11:57 AM (Nud5/)

350 343 Its because she's Maud Dibs Little sister, Alia.

She's gonna slip you the Gom Jabbar halfway through her reading."

LOL I thought that the instant I saw her!

Posted by: Tom Servo at May 14, 2019 11:57 AM (Kpl3J)

351 Cowards

We learned that over ten years ago when after a terrorist attack on their subway, they pulled out of the coalition and threw their PM out of office. They're cringing weaklings.

Posted by: Christopher R Taylor at May 14, 2019 11:57 AM (39g3+)

352 The day China stops stealing IP from foreign companies we'll need sheepdog drones to keep our flying pigs under control.

Heh. Well, yeah. Maybe they just keep it down? I don't know. Good goal, but... it's Chinatown...errr.....China. They steal.

Posted by: Huck Follywood, the Bwana returns at May 14, 2019 11:57 AM (Z216Q)

353 >> Soph is amazing and hilarious

Yeah, from what I have seen I am reduced to shocked laughter and giggles.
She is ALL teen, all snark and foul language.

That Buzzfeed went after her is the height of hypocrisy. Not only do sites like Buzzfeed thrive on ragey clickbait, but look at the teens the left are OK with: drag kids, creepy feminist sex-ed video, teen vogue posting a guide to anal, fruitcake Norwegian teen who's become a climate change activist cult leader and so on.

Posted by: Lizzy at May 14, 2019 11:57 AM (W+vEI)

354 Which do you prefer, higher prices and decent jobs, or lower prices and crap jobs if any? There's a cost to ANY choice. The question is, who bears it?

Damn, Brother - you said that so much better than I did!

Someone always pays.

Posted by: BlackOrchid at May 14, 2019 11:57 AM (Rarvo)

355 Elizabeth Warren Turns Down Fox News Town Hall, Calling the Network a Hate-for-Profit Racket

Speaking of Cowards

Posted by: Nevergiveup at May 14, 2019 11:57 AM (FwN37)

356 347

As I said, all else equal tariffs suck. But China is cheating and so tariffs are needed. But with a cou try like Canada or the UK, or other generally trustworthy countries, absolutely opposed to tariffs.

Posted by: Lurking Lurker at May 14, 2019 11:58 AM (FiUMj)

357 355 Elizabeth Warren Turns Down Fox News Town Hall, Calling the Network a Hate-for-Profit Racket

Speaking of Cowards

And hate... She's the Queen of mean

Posted by: It's me donna at May 14, 2019 11:58 AM (O2RFr)

358
I fucking hate Kayakers.

Posted by: garrett

Nice fuckup.

Posted by: Soothsayer'c at May 14, 2019 11:58 AM (mjKr1)

359 ? I don't know. Good goal, but... it's Chinatown...errr.....China. They steal.

Posted by: Huck Follywood, the Bwana returns at May 14, 2019 11:57 AM (Z216Q)

Your not fucking telling me that Movado I bought in China Town is fake are you?

Posted by: Nevergiveup at May 14, 2019 11:58 AM (FwN37)

360 337 You can't fault China for having a more liberal (small l) economy. Lower taxes, no bullshit regulations. That is a competitive advantage. Putting up tariffs to fight that is wrong.

China's economy is a bit of wild-west, a bit of government kleptocracy. You scrape the surface of any significant operation you'll find some national or provincial poobah's nephew.

Of course, it's gotten that bad here too now. You want a government contract you hire a former Congresscreature.

Posted by: JEM at May 14, 2019 11:58 AM (8erNz)

361 Spain has recalled a frigate accompanying a US aircraft carrier to the Middle East because of rising tensions between Washington and Tehran, the defence ministry said Tuesday. "

Ok, sure...

IIRC, said frigate was on a longer trip anyway, and will continue, so...

Posted by: Anon a mouse at May 14, 2019 11:59 AM (6qErC)

362 A tarriff is a tax paid for by consumers. So the question then becomes is it worth paying those taxes to protect industries from foreign competition.

Well that's one sided, though. The tariffs applied by other nations are also a tax paid by consumers, just more indirectly. And if those are too high, they are damaging as well as harming local economy and industry.

Ideally any tariffs that are in place are punitive rather than revenue: that is, they are used not to make money, but to pressure another nation to lower theirs and then they are removed or lowered as well.

Posted by: Christopher R Taylor at May 14, 2019 11:59 AM (39g3+)

363 You can't fault China for having a more liberal (small l) economy. Lower taxes, no bullshit regulations. That is a competitive advantage. Putting up tariffs to fight that is wrong.

Putting up tariffs to fight currency manipulation and ip theft...legit. Trump needs to do a better job outlining it, even though most Americans would just go huh?
Posted by: Lurking Lurker

Problem is, they also have hefty tariffs as well. If those competitive advantages are so great, why do they need the tariffs? Unless...they serve some other purpose than just a healthy economy...almost as if they were weaponizing it...

Homo economicus is a myth.

Posted by: Brother Cavil at May 14, 2019 11:59 AM (AM1GF)

364 It's not either tariffs and good jobs or no tariffs and bad jobs. Good jobs for all with a free and fair trade agreement is the best option. The Canada US free trade agreement is a perfect example. Everyone benefits.

Posted by: Lurking Lurker at May 14, 2019 11:59 AM (FiUMj)

365 Fight fire with fire. Nuke it from orbit if you have to.

Posted by: Count de Monet at May 14, 2019 11:59 AM (q1Pj5)

366 Your not fucking telling me that Movado I bought in China Town is fake are you?"

At least your has a real name. Wore my "Rolodex" brand watch around with a grin...

Posted by: Anon a mouse at May 14, 2019 12:00 PM (6qErC)

367
Spain has recalled a frigate accompanying a US aircraft carrier to the Middle East because of rising tensions between Washington and Tehran, the defence ministry said Tuesday.

The Bazan class frigate is one of the finalist for the US Navy's FFG(X) program. Sure would be a shame if something happened to it.

Posted by: Flawless Male Logic at May 14, 2019 12:00 PM (TAmPV)

368 Right. Capitalism is the least worst system. Its not a good system, it is an efficient
system. By that I mean it is not morally heroic or noble, it is simply
effective and productive. Some of the aspects of capitalism are good
(liberty, for instance) but overall it is weaponized greed and
selfishness. It turns the basest human nature into the greatest benefit
to the largest number of people.
Capitalism is a greed based system. It works because life is a greed based proposition.

All economic systems will decay into unbridled greed.

Posted by: Roland THTG at May 14, 2019 12:00 PM (88+cf)

369 >>354 Which do you prefer, higher prices and decent jobs, or lower prices and crap jobs if any? There's a cost to ANY choice. The question is, who bears it?

I prefer lower prices and having a decent job, and allowing a prole to have a crap job so that I can have the lower prices and make more than the prole and own things that the prole cannot afford so that I can scorn him.

Posted by: Zod at May 14, 2019 12:00 PM (Bdeb0)

370 Yeah, from what I have seen I am reduced to shocked laughter and giggles.
She is ALL teen, all snark and foul language.

Something's going on, she's gone up 30K in YT subscribers while I've had her up in the other monitor. Maybe she'll hit a million today.

Posted by: JEM at May 14, 2019 12:01 PM (8erNz)

371 >>
How can someone so young have "gotten" so much? I had to live a long time before I started to figure a lot of that out.

Right?
On her twitter she has a "shill bingo" card of reactions to her posts, such as "she's going to regret this" and "she didn't write that." Hysterical.

Posted by: Lizzy at May 14, 2019 12:01 PM (W+vEI)

372 Your not fucking telling me that Movado I bought in China Town is fake are you?

Posted by: Nevergiveup

I'm not sayin' it's bad, but when the gopniks complain their Adibas are actually Chinese knockoffs of their Russian knockoffs, there may be a problem.

Posted by: Brother Cavil at May 14, 2019 12:01 PM (AM1GF)

373 Instead of calling for "Free Trade" we should be calling for "Balanced Trade".

If countries open their markets then so should ours unless it's a ruse to let other countries use it for their purposes as they did the Canadians.

But if a country refuses to open their markets then it is almost mandatory that a country protect itself or wind up as we did with our manufacturing almost destroyed.

Also remember something the Media of course does not mention. Trump offered NO TARIFFS to Europe if they would do so themselves and they refused. I would guess that he offered the same to China and they have now refused.

That's why all this blather about tariffs being bad is propaganda on the part of China and the Democrats who see this as something they can confuse the electorate with.

Tariffs are only bad if it prevents another country from dealing freely with another country. That's not the case here. We are balancing our tariffs against theirs.

If they lower theirs or remove them, Trump has already promised to lower/remove ours.

It's really very simple. Are we for making sure we and our neighbors are employed or not because we have let another country take advantage?

Posted by: jakee308 - Hylozoist at May 14, 2019 12:02 PM (KfCZH)

374 "A tarriff is a tax paid for by consumers. So the question then becomes is it worth paying those taxes to protect industries from foreign competition."

.. ... who aren't paying OUR taxes. This isn't complicated. Why would a nation let someone come in and sell their wares unfettered by all the myriad regulations?

Posted by: Common Tater at May 14, 2019 12:02 PM (Cel0r)

375 You can't fault China for having a more liberal (small l) economy. Lower taxes, no bullshit regulations. That is a competitive advantage. Putting up tariffs to fight that is wrong.

Right, and that's not what these tariffs are about. Trump isn't trying to fight their economic system, he's trying to fight unfair trade practices. They charge us HUGE tariffs and we charge them a pittance. That has to change.

Posted by: Christopher R Taylor at May 14, 2019 12:02 PM (39g3+)

376 Homo economicus is a myth.

Homo floridian is real, however.

Posted by: Duuncanthrax at May 14, 2019 12:02 PM (meVhc)

377 >>Something's going on, she's gone up 30K in YT subscribers while I've had her up in the other monitor. Maybe she'll hit a million today.

Yeah, Buzzfeed is working to get her banned - directing a lot of traffic to her channel.

Posted by: Lizzy at May 14, 2019 12:02 PM (W+vEI)

378 All economic systems will decay into unbridled greed."

Greed is good.

Posted by: Anon a mouse at May 14, 2019 12:02 PM (6qErC)

379 SLAYER.

Posted by: HA at May 14, 2019 12:02 PM (MAstk)

380 I prefer lower prices and having a decent job, and allowing a prole to have a crap job so that I can have the lower prices and make more than the prole and own things that the prole cannot afford so that I can scorn him.
Posted by: Zod

Sure, but if you aren't also grinding the masses under your boot heel, where's the fun?

Posted by: pep at May 14, 2019 12:03 PM (wW03z)

381 369 >>354 Which do you prefer, higher prices and decent jobs, or lower prices and crap jobs if any? There's a cost to ANY choice. The question is, who bears it?

I prefer lower prices and having a decent job, and allowing a prole to have a crap job so that I can have the lower prices and make more than the prole and own things that the prole cannot afford so that I can scorn him.

Posted by: Zod at May 14, 2019 12:00 PM (Bdeb0)

There is nothing more I can teach you.

Posted by: Someguy at May 14, 2019 12:03 PM (sqdLZ)

382 China has Foxconn slave labor.

The United States has hundreds of thousands of illiterate Aztecs wandering around getting into trouble because they are not enslaved.

Posted by: Zod at May 14, 2019 12:03 PM (Bdeb0)

383 Forget it, Jake. It's Austriantown.

Posted by: andycanuck at May 14, 2019 12:03 PM (Dh1wo)

384 How can someone so young have "gotten" so much? I had to live a long time before I started to figure a lot of that out.

I suspect she's reading more than understanding, but I could be wrong.

Posted by: Christopher R Taylor at May 14, 2019 12:03 PM (39g3+)

385 Your not fucking telling me that Movado I bought in China Town is fake are you?

Posted by: Nevergiveup at May 14, 2019 11:58 AM (FwN37)

===================
I saw Genuine Fake open for Chinatown at the Bowery Ballroom back in '99. Awesome concert, though no originals. All cover songs.

Posted by: Huck Follywood, the Bwana returns at May 14, 2019 12:03 PM (Z216Q)

386
By my calculations, Soph gained 3K subs in the last hour.

Posted by: Soothsayer'c at May 14, 2019 12:04 PM (mjKr1)

387 >>Sure, but if you aren't also grinding the masses under your boot heel, where's the fun? Posted by: pep at May 14, 2019 12:03 PM (wW03z)

"...and scorn them" = "all the fun."

Posted by: Zod at May 14, 2019 12:04 PM (Bdeb0)

388 I prefer lower prices and having a decent job, and allowing a prole to have a crap job so that I can have the lower prices and make more than the prole and own things that the prole cannot afford so that I can scorn him.
Posted by: Zod

I find no argument with Elder Zod.

Posted by: Brother Cavil at May 14, 2019 12:04 PM (AM1GF)

389 Sure, but if you aren't also grinding the masses under your boot heel, where's the fun?"

Huh. Thought he wore sandals...

Posted by: Anon a mouse at May 14, 2019 12:04 PM (6qErC)

390 Free trade only works when both sides play by the same rules. Claiming to be a free trader while ignoring the outrageous behavior of other countries is not the moral high ground, it isn't even free trade, it is ignoring reality.

Posted by: JackStraw at May 14, 2019 11:53 AM (/tuJf)

Too many people are wed to their ideology despite what reality says.

The map is not the territory.

Posted by: Mikey NTH - Party of One! Personalized Identity Group Kits Now at The Outrage Outlet! at May 14, 2019 12:04 PM (hLRSq)

391
The Eurovision contest has produced some of the most cringe worthy TV in history.

Posted by: sniffybigtoe at May 14, 2019 11:12 AM (1ISKN)

Yes, but there have been the occasional bright spots of "fuck you, Eurotrash".

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gAh9NRGNhUU

Posted by: IllTemperedCur at May 14, 2019 12:04 PM (veoSD)

392 The official Twitter account for Democratic Coalition, an anti-Trump super PAC that targets Republican officials and candidates, called for Graham to resign following the comments.

Posted by: SMOD at May 14, 2019 12:04 PM (QkjLD)

393 The Bazan class frigate is one of the finalist for the US Navy's FFG(X) program. Sure would be a shame if something happened to it.

I love it. 6000 ton frigates, 8000 ton destroyers...

Posted by: JEM at May 14, 2019 12:04 PM (8erNz)

394 Pursuing free trade at the cost of your nation's manufacturing base is insane.

Posted by: Mikey NTH - Party of One! Personalized Identity Group Kits Now at The Outrage Outlet! at May 14, 2019 12:05 PM (hLRSq)

395 tariffs or commodities, im not a history buff although you guys certainly bring it re study of history.

but Japan war was about Oil? or am I misremembering this?

Posted by: willow at May 14, 2019 12:05 PM (r/xAU)

396 Homo floridian is real, however.
Florida man arrested over I EAT ASS window sticker.
https://twitter.com/ThinGrayLine01/status/
1127406966345752585

Posted by: andycanuck at May 14, 2019 12:05 PM (Dh1wo)

397
Right?
On her twitter she has a "shill bingo" card of reactions to her posts, such as "she's going to regret this" and "she didn't write that." Hysterical.
Posted by: Lizzy at May 14, 2019 12:01 PM (W+vEI)

-------

Clock-boy goes to the Whitehouse for making a bomb timer and is called a genius and a credit to his religion.

She gets leftwing hate, attempted deplatforming and generally vile revulsion's because she uses poly syllabic words strung together to form a coherent thought that runs counter to their groupthink while her age contemporaries simply spit out giberrish fed to them from their "educators".

Bout sums up left wing discourse doesnt it.

Posted by: fixerupper at May 14, 2019 12:06 PM (vIjh1)

398 392 The official Twitter account for Democratic Coalition, an anti-Trump super PAC that targets Republican officials and candidates, called for Graham to resign following the comments.

I think everyone here is thinking the same brief response.

Posted by: pep at May 14, 2019 12:06 PM (wW03z)

399 Cafe Hayek makes the mistake of not considering how to deal with a competing economy that mistreats its citizens and manipulates its currency in order to under-cut the U.S. economy. Since China allows factory workers to be essentially treated like serfs in miserable conditions, steals any intellectual property they can get their hands on and already blocked certain American-made products, how do you counter that? China will not change unless they are made to feel pain.

Proclaiming "free trade uber alles" and saying BOHICA to American workers has already been tried. That approach has been an abject failure.

Posted by: Retired Buckeye Cop is now an engineer at May 14, 2019 12:06 PM (YQ4mh)

400
but Japan war was about Oil? or am I misremembering this?

Posted by: willow at May 14, 2019 12:05 PM

longbows

Posted by: AltonJackson (link in nick for the MiMoMe) at May 14, 2019 12:06 PM (cuot+)

401 Greed is good.

Posted by: Anon a mouse at May 14, 2019 12:02 PM (6qErC)

Hey! That's my schtick!

Posted by: Gordon Gecco at May 14, 2019 12:07 PM (q1Pj5)

402 I think The Chinese Knockoffs is a great name for a punk band

Posted by: Christopher R Taylor at May 14, 2019 12:07 PM (39g3+)

403 Missoula County lowered the 'Flood' designation by 25%, last year.

Now every 10 minutes they are screaming about 'Flood Level!' on the local news. And reporting an alarming trend in the number of 'Flood Warnings' in the past year...

these people are idiots.

Posted by: garrett at May 14, 2019 12:07 PM (Nud5/)

404 Mikey, it's not when they open business in china cheap labor and sell product at highest buck in America.

this is why I get so pissed.

Hey corps we used to have a synchronistic agreement, we'd work make you a big star and you through us to the curb like old shoes.
fk you.

Posted by: willow at May 14, 2019 12:08 PM (r/xAU)

405 Actually, we can either employ the Aztecs we have as slaves, or conduct a "Flower War" against Mexico to acquire enough slaves to counter the Chinese human-capital threat.

Old and busted: Reform immigration now!
New hotness: Here are your shackles. Your name is Toby.

Posted by: Zod at May 14, 2019 12:08 PM (Bdeb0)

406 Ideally any tariffs that are in place are punitive rather than revenue: that is, they are used not to make money, but to pressure another nation to lower theirs and then they are removed or lowered as well.
Posted by: Christopher R Taylor at May 14, 2019 11:59 AM (39g3+)

Why? Why is it better for the US consumer to pay a Sales tax on EVERYTHING, vice a Tariff Tax on foreign made goods?

In fact, the US Economy was built when the Governments main source of Tax, was Tariffs.

Posted by: Don Q. at May 14, 2019 12:08 PM (NgKpN)

407 Here is Soph's BINGO card tweet...

https://twitter.com/sewernugget/status/
1123730025214357512

Posted by: andycanuck at May 14, 2019 12:08 PM (Dh1wo)

408
I love it. 6000 ton frigates, 8000 ton destroyers...

Posted by: JEM at May 14, 2019 12:04 PM (8erNz)

The new British Type 26 frigate will be weighing in at close to 8,000 tons.

Posted by: Flawless Male Logic at May 14, 2019 12:08 PM (TAmPV)

409 threw us*

Posted by: willow at May 14, 2019 12:08 PM (r/xAU)

410 Iran-backed Huthis from Yemen attacked two Saudi pumping stations with drones, prompting the Saudis to shut down an oil pipeline.

https://tinyurl.com/y5husu2p

Posted by: Meade Lux Lewis at May 14, 2019 12:08 PM (hjaPQ)

411 >>402 I think The Chinese Knockoffs is a great name for a punk band Posted by: Christopher R Taylor at May 14, 2019 12:07 PM (39g3+)

Or "Adibas."

Posted by: Zod at May 14, 2019 12:09 PM (Bdeb0)

412 I'm tired of hearing about how abstract principles require us to bend over for China regardless of the circumstances. Thanks but no thanks.

Posted by: bear with asymmetrical balls at May 14, 2019 12:09 PM (iys0/)

413
All economic systems will decay into unbridled greed.

----

Not exactly.

In a truly free market, acting in my self interest will always "bridle" your self interest. In the end, if we wish to come to an exchange of goods and services, we will either excercise our discretion to not trade OR reach a mutually agreeable agreement.

Posted by: fixerupper at May 14, 2019 12:09 PM (vIjh1)

414 Minnesota Muzzie and Ilhan Omar constituent that chucked 5 year old white kid off the 3rd floor of the Mall of America pleads guilty to attempted murder, sentenced to 19 years in prison.

Enjoy feeding him out of your paycheck.

Posted by: Bitter Clinger at May 14, 2019 12:09 PM (YA914)

415
Why? Why is it better for the US consumer to pay a Sales tax on EVERYTHING, vice a Tariff Tax on foreign made goods?

In fact, the US Economy was built when the Governments main source of Tax, was Tariffs.

Posted by: Don Q. at May 14, 2019 12:08 PM (NgKpN)

Sales taxes are local generally speaking. Tariffs are federal.

Posted by: Someguy at May 14, 2019 12:09 PM (sqdLZ)

416 but Japan war was about Oil? or am I misremembering this?
Posted by: willow at May 14, 2019 12:05 PM (r/xAU)

--------

Somewhat. That's certainly what drove their incursions in SE Asia. But their economic problem with us was that they had become utterly dependent on imports of American steel to feed their ever-expanding war machine.

As we became more and more hostile to their expansionism, we began erecting barriers on that trade to put pressure on them. Eventually, Hirohito decided open conflict was preferable to the trade war. Exceedingly stupid move.

In order to bring us to heel, they'd have to conquer us, not defeat us.

Posted by: Yudhishthira's Dice at May 14, 2019 12:09 PM (AzW6q)

417
"How can someone so young have "gotten" so much?"

Because it's not really her thoughts and opinions, she's being told what to say. I got mixed feelings, I don't like kids being used as props for a political causes but I don't think it really hurts them either, they're just acting.

Posted by: lowandslow at May 14, 2019 12:10 PM (4thlk)

418 Hey corps we used to have a synchronistic agreement, we'd work make you a big star and you through us to the curb like old shoes.
fk you.
Posted by: willow at May 14, 2019 12:08 PM (r/xAU)

THIS!

Note, all of the big Tech companies who are now pushing Censorship upon us, started under US rules of Free Speech.

Posted by: Don Q. at May 14, 2019 12:10 PM (NgKpN)

419 but Japan war was about Oil? "

Nah. They kicked off the war in Manchuria for land and resources.

Never forget their slogan (that's missing from textbooks these days): "Greater East Asia Co-Prosperity Sphere "

Posted by: Anon a mouse at May 14, 2019 12:10 PM (6qErC)

420 Or "Adibas."

The lead singer could call himself that

Posted by: Christopher R Taylor at May 14, 2019 12:10 PM (39g3+)

421 The new British Type 26 frigate will be weighing in at close to 8,000 tons.

Posted by: Flawless Male Logic at May 14, 2019 12:08 PM (TAmPV)

And thus, the new English Caliphate will have a navy.
Great.

Posted by: Agent Cooper at May 14, 2019 12:10 PM (bv65J)

422 >>Here is Soph's BINGO card tweet...

"Looks like Ben Shapiro" - I am dying!

Posted by: Lizzy at May 14, 2019 12:10 PM (W+vEI)

423
In fact, the US Economy was built when the Governments main source of Tax, was Tariffs.
Posted by: Don Q. at May 14, 2019 12:08 PM (NgKpN)

The bottom line is that taxing productivity (income) is clown world levels of retarded.

Posted by: sunflower at May 14, 2019 12:10 PM (I54dk)

424 I think everyone here is thinking the same brief response.

We don't care if Lindsey's gay, as long as he's not McCain's buttboy.

Posted by: JEM at May 14, 2019 12:10 PM (8erNz)

425 There is also a national security interest (being dependent on foreign nations for vital resources and goods, particularly military) that is ignored by the libertarian anti-tariff argument.

Posted by: ShainS -- Born Again Easter Worshipper at May 14, 2019 12:11 PM (WqPYg)

426 Sales taxes are local generally speaking. Tariffs are federal.
Posted by: Someguy at May 14, 2019 12:09 PM (sqdLZ)

Federal Gas Tax.

Posted by: Don Q. at May 14, 2019 12:11 PM (NgKpN)

427
And thus, the new English Caliphate will have a navy. Great.

Posted by: Agent Cooper at May 14, 2019 12:10 PM (bv65J)

On the bright side they only plan to build three.

Posted by: Flawless Male Logic at May 14, 2019 12:11 PM (TAmPV)

428 I'm not sayin' it's bad, but when the gopniks complain their Adibas are actually Chinese knockoffs of their Russian knockoffs, there may be a problem.
Posted by: Brother Cavil

Just like with their AK's.

Posted by: rickb223 at May 14, 2019 12:11 PM (F8EBp)

429 "The Bazan class frigate is one of the finalist for the US Navy's FFG(X) program. Sure would be a shame if something happened to it."

The specs on the ship look pretty good. Like that it has a 5" gun and not that 76mm/3" stuff the Perry class had.

Posted by: Mikey NTH - Party of One! Personalized Identity Group Kits Now at The Outrage Outlet! at May 14, 2019 12:11 PM (hLRSq)

430 424 I think everyone here is thinking the same brief response.

I was thinking more along the lines of "LOL..."

Posted by: pep at May 14, 2019 12:11 PM (wW03z)

431 "@ewarren

I've done 57 media avails and 131 interviews, taking over 1,100 questions from press just since January. Fox News is welcome to come to my events just like any other outlet. But a Fox News town hall adds money to the hate-for-profit machine. To which I say: hard pass."

Hard I don't GAF, you fake clowntard.

Posted by: Boxx Culvert, man about town. at May 14, 2019 12:12 PM (951Yv)

432 Re the idiot troll yesterday who was gloating about the tumble in the stock market: the DJIA is up over 300 points again today.

Posted by: Deplorable Jay Guevara at May 14, 2019 12:12 PM (6n7nf)

433 Yud -Anon, thank you , I rea fthat in 7th grade and I have come to realize i'm just not that smart.

Posted by: willow at May 14, 2019 12:12 PM (r/xAU)

434 China has practiced unfair & predatory trade policies ever since Nixon went there & the market opened up.

Trump is the only one to address this existential problem, because no other POTUS would accept the short term pain.

I reach for my revolver when anybody describes the pre-tariffs trade arrangements with China as "free trade."

Posted by: mnw at May 14, 2019 12:12 PM (Cssks)

435 Bazan class frigate"

Isn't that another AEGIS clone with several copies floating 'round in other fleets?

Posted by: Anon a mouse at May 14, 2019 12:13 PM (6qErC)

436 379
SLAYER.

Posted by: HA at May 14, 2019
*
*
. . .

You rang?

Posted by: Buffy Summers at May 14, 2019 12:13 PM (elsTe)

437
The new British Type 26 frigate will be weighing in at close to 8,000 tons.

Posted by: Flawless Male Logic at May 14, 2019 12:08 PM (TAmPV)

And thus, the new English Caliphate will have a navy.
Great.

Posted by: Agent Cooper at May 14, 2019 12:10 PM (bv65J)

On the plus side, the new mohammedan Royal Navy will be crewed with mohammedans. So I'm pretty sure that their competence level is going to be somewhere equal to Lucas Electric.

Posted by: IllTemperedCur at May 14, 2019 12:13 PM (veoSD)

438 To which I say: hard pass.

Narrator: She's too much a coward to appear at a town hall which may not be carefully staged and scripted

Posted by: Christopher R Taylor at May 14, 2019 12:13 PM (39g3+)

439 What I hate about the stock market swings is I rarely have funds to buy on the dip.

Posted by: Someguy at May 14, 2019 12:14 PM (sqdLZ)

440 I've done 57 media avails and 131 interviews, taking over 1,100 questions from press just since January. Fox News is welcome to come to my events just like any other outlet. But a Fox News town hall adds money to the hate-for-profit machine. To which I say: hard pass."

Even if they report using smoke signals?

Posted by: Deplorable Jay Guevara at May 14, 2019 12:14 PM (6n7nf)

441 Protecting steel is essential for military purposes. Being dependent on foreign materials for military production is not a position you want to be in when a war breaks out.
Posted by: Cato, Media Delenda Est at May 14, 2019 11:31 AM (J+mig)

Not to mention that some Chinese steel is crap. Use it in a building structure, or a freeway overpass, and people could be killed.

Posted by: Alberta Oil Peon at May 14, 2019 12:14 PM (7njPr)

442 So I'm pretty sure that their competence level is going to be somewhere equal to Lucas Electric.

They'll be every bit as good as Florida college bridge designers!

Posted by: Christopher R Taylor at May 14, 2019 12:14 PM (39g3+)

443 338 Why is it that the people who are bitching about Trump "starting a war" and "ruining the economy" over tariffs are the very same people you will find protesting the opening of a new Walmart and promoting "Buy Local" to prohibit normals from buying bulk crap at cheap prices?
Posted by: red speck at May 14, 2019 11:55 AM (6Krd7)

Are you actually asking that question?

Honestly, I get far more frustrated with people who never even *try* to work their opinions into a relatively workable overall structure than I do with people who are just wrong. Anyone can be wrong. And while there's always stuff that doesn't quite fit and some concepts that are in opposition (such as weighing free trade principles against same rules principles) I expect a little bit of poking at those bits and at least an understanding that the ideas *are* in conflict.

But since when is anyone on the left "free trade"? Actually, since when are any of them "open borders?"

If you're anti-big corp, anti-walmart neighborhood market, pro-local food, buy local, $15 min wage, etc., at what point does that person decide that *today* they're going to die on the hill of preserving access to cheap Chinese slave goods?

Posted by: Synova (reversion to pseudonymous) at May 14, 2019 12:14 PM (BD/yx)

444 414: Thank goodness there was no brain damage

Posted by: CN at May 14, 2019 12:15 PM (U7k5w)

445 On the bright side they only plan to build three.

Posted by: Flawless Male Logic at May 14, 2019 12:11 PM (TAmPV)

They will build as many as it takes to bring Allah's light to the unbelievers.England and most of Western Europe will be Islamic states in less than 50 years.

Posted by: Agent Cooper at May 14, 2019 12:15 PM (bv65J)

446 The bottom line is that taxing productivity (income) is clown world levels of retarded.
Posted by: sunflower at May 14, 2019 12:10 PM (I54dk)

In fact, an Income tax is morally bankrupt.

Its a throw back to forcing us to be peasants in a feudal system, where we owe labor to our Lord, the State (but that was actually less than our Income tax, you only owed your Lord ONE day per week).

Add in Property tax where you RENT your land from your Lord, the State yearly, or they kick you off your land?

We are a feudal system of taxation, they just updated the terminology.

Posted by: Don Q. at May 14, 2019 12:15 PM (NgKpN)

447 >>431 "@ewarren I've done 57 media avails and 131 interviews, taking over 1,100 questions from press just since January. Fox News is welcome to come to my events just like any other outlet. But a Fox News town hall adds money to the hate-for-profit machine. To which I say: hard pass."

Yeah, right, "Elizabeth." Come to your press conference...and end up staked to a red-ant hill under a burning Arizona sun while you squat there in your breechcloth, leering and watching.

Fucking savage.

Posted by: Zod at May 14, 2019 12:15 PM (Bdeb0)

448 Things are getting very interesting in Ukraine.

https://tinyurl.com/y6g5n3c8

Just a coincidence I'm sure. Nobody on our side is smart enough to have a plan.

Posted by: JackStraw at May 14, 2019 12:15 PM (/tuJf)

449 In fact, the US Economy was built when the Governments main source of Tax, was Tariffs.
Posted by: Don Q. at May 14, 2019 12:08 PM (NgKpN)

The bottom line is that taxing productivity (income) is clown world levels of retarded.
----

My dad used to say, only partially joking, the income tax should be applied ONLY to people who make UNDER $100,000 say. Then, everybody would bust their ass to make More money.

Posted by: Common Tater at May 14, 2019 12:15 PM (Cel0r)

450 Late entry, after not having read the thread: tariffs are necessary for us now to give China some incentive to negotiate more equitable trade arrangements. Otherwise, we're merely asking them to change something that is entirely in their interest, to which of course they will say "no."

But with tariffs imposed on their crap, they now have a reason to take OUR interests into account in their policies.

Posted by: Deplorable Jay Guevara at May 14, 2019 12:16 PM (6n7nf)

451 But since when is anyone on the left "free trade"? Actually, since when are any of them "open borders?"

When illegals are involved.

Posted by: rickb223 at May 14, 2019 12:16 PM (F8EBp)

452 Not to mention that some Chinese steel is crap. Use it in a building structure, or a freeway overpass, and people could be killed.
Posted by: Alberta Oil Peon at May 14, 2019 12:14 PM (7njPr)

------

Hell, even Japan. They make GREAT steel. But I know an independent metallurgist who consults for a major American firm that imports Japanese steel.

He has a job with them because they have to analyze every batch - once several good shipments come through, the Japanese will start doping shipments with lower-quality stuff. They have to be watched constantly.

Posted by: Yudhishthira's Dice at May 14, 2019 12:17 PM (AzW6q)

453
420 Or "Adibas."

The lead singer could call himself that

my money's on Adibas and the Gopniks to take the Eurovision Grand Prix

Posted by: Anachronda at May 14, 2019 12:17 PM (sGtp+)

454
The specs on the ship look pretty good. Like that it has a 5" gun and not that 76mm/3" stuff the Perry class had.

Posted by: Mikey NTH - Party of One! Personalized Identity Group Kits Now at The Outrage Outlet! at May 14, 2019 12:11 PM (hLRSq)

I like the Oto Melara 76mm it has a 120rpm maximum rate of fire.

Posted by: Flawless Male Logic at May 14, 2019 12:17 PM (TAmPV)

455 i've long been a "free-trader" for historical reasons and viewed trump's use of tariffs skeptically. then i realized i don't really know very much about how tariffs are used today. every country has tariffs it seems, china, europe, and mostly higher than ours for many targeted products. i suppose it makes sense as the u.s. is the greatest consumer in the world, but it has been hell on our manufacturing. and a drain financially (i think).

so, i've been won over by trump's argument. tariffs, or the threat of tariffs, has brought a better deal than nafta, and has put a clear light on chinese abuse of trade agreements and intellectual theft. he's the first president to confront these lingering issues and he has my support.

well done. just bringing the fight deserves a feather in trump's cap.

Posted by: musical jolly chimp at May 14, 2019 12:17 PM (Pg+x7)

456 China has some weapons too. They are the largest foreign holder of US Treasury debt, for example, and if they decide to sell some of that debt it would drive interest rates higher. Interest rates going higher could be a seriously bad thing for America, both because it would hurt our economy for a long time and also make financing our deficit much more difficult.

Posted by: Huck Follywood, the Bwana returns at May 14, 2019 12:18 PM (Z216Q)

457 OT:

I'm 2/3 of the way through reading my 4th draft of the next novel I'm publishing, and I'm very happy.

I was bitterly disappointed with the 3rd draft. It was broken pretty fundamentally. I was on the verge of just giving up on it completely, but I already have one book I consider a lost cause and I refused to accept another.

I took 7 weeks to rewrite, and it's vastly improved. Vastly.

It needs a quick once over to fix some small things, but it won't take more than a coupe of days. Maybe three.

July 1st, here I come.

Crystal Embers.

Posted by: TheJamesMadison, Read Some Movie Thoughts at May 14, 2019 12:18 PM (9cans)

458 In a truly free market, acting in my self interest
will always "bridle" your self interest. In the end, if we wish to come
to an exchange of goods and services, we will either excercise our
discretion to not trade OR reach a mutually agreeable agreement.

Posted by: fixerupper

Absolutely. But both parties are acting in their own self interest, not according to some bullshit bureaucratically orchestrated ponzi scheme.

Posted by: Roland THTG at May 14, 2019 12:18 PM (88+cf)

459 Attorney General William Barr is working closely with the CIA to review the origins of the Russia investigation and surveillance issues surrounding Donald Trump's presidential campaign, according to a source familiar with the matter, broadening an effort that the President has long demanded to involve all major national security agencies.

Barr is working in close collaboration with CIA Director Gina Haspel, Director of National Intelligence Dan Coats and FBI Director Chris Wray, the source said.

Posted by: SMOD at May 14, 2019 12:19 PM (QkjLD)

460 If you're anti-big corp, anti-walmart neighborhood market, pro-local food, buy local, $15 min wage, etc., at what point does that person decide that *today* they're going to die on the hill of preserving access to cheap Chinese slave goods?
Posted by: Synova (reversion to pseudonymous) at May 14, 2019 12:14 PM (BD/yx)

When the Party says so, comrade. See, e.g., their reaction to the Ribbentrop-Molotov Pact.

Posted by: Deplorable Jay Guevara at May 14, 2019 12:19 PM (6n7nf)

461 458 In a truly free market, acting in my self interest
will always "bridle" your self interest. In the end, if we wish to come
to an exchange of goods and services, we will either excercise our
discretion to not trade OR reach a mutually agreeable agreement.

Posted by: fixerupper

Absolutely. But both parties are acting in their own self interest, not according to some bullshit bureaucratically orchestrated ponzi scheme.
Posted by: Roland THTG at May 14, 2019 12:18 PM (88+cf)

===========

"Ah...freedom."
-Bernie Sanders, watching the peasants in a bread line

Posted by: TheJamesMadison, Read Some Movie Thoughts at May 14, 2019 12:19 PM (9cans)

462
He has a job with them because they have to analyze every batch - once several good shipments come through, the Japanese will start doping shipments with lower-quality stuff. They have to be watched constantly.

Posted by: Yudhishthira's Dice at May 14, 2019 12:17 PM (AzW6q)

Funny, the Chinese do the same thing. Start with good batches and then start screwing their customer. Ruins small businesses who are stupid enough to be suckered into it.

Posted by: Someguy at May 14, 2019 12:19 PM (sqdLZ)

463 If you're anti-big corp, anti-walmart neighborhood market, pro-local food, buy local, $15 min wage, etc., at what point does that person decide that *today* they're going to die on the hill of preserving access to cheap Chinese slave goods?
Posted by: Synova (reversion to pseudonymous) at May 14, 2019 12:14 PM (BD/yx)

It's religious, not logical.

Their party ideology tells them what is 'good' and they obey as much as any Philistine peasant kneeling before Baal. If their high priests say 'open borders', they bow.

It's emotion you're fighting, not the brain.

Posted by: Mark Andrew Edwards, Angry, Radical, Anti-Liberal, and Dangerous: buy ammo at May 14, 2019 12:19 PM (bcbK8)

464
Protecting steel is essential for military purposes. Being dependent on foreign materials for military production is not a position you want to be in when a war breaks out.
Posted by: Cato, Media Delenda Est at May 14, 2019 11:31 AM (J+mig)

Word.

Like the Russkies did with their new T-14 Armata tank. Innovative design, and heavily dependent upon mil-grade touchscreens for the control systems.

Apparently, from what I've read recently the Russians don't have a single touchscreen factory in the country.

D'oh!

Posted by: IllTemperedCur at May 14, 2019 12:19 PM (veoSD)

465 Or "Adibas."
Posted by: Zod

I've got some first quality fake tickets to the show....

Posted by: MikloSlav Marketing, S.R.O. at May 14, 2019 12:20 PM (QzkSJ)

466 I took 7 weeks to rewrite, and it's vastly improved. Vastly.

It needs a quick once over to fix some small things, but it won't take more than a coupe of days. Maybe three.

July 1st, here I come.

Crystal Embers.
Posted by: TheJamesMadison, Read Some Movie Thoughts at May 14, 2019 12:18 PM (9cans)

Congrats man. Every novel completed is a small victory over yourself.

Posted by: Mark Andrew Edwards, Angry, Radical, Anti-Liberal, and Dangerous: buy ammo at May 14, 2019 12:20 PM (bcbK8)

467 Just a coincidence I'm sure. Nobody on our side is smart enough to have a plan.

Posted by: JackStraw at May 14, 2019 12:15 PM (/tuJf)

One of those men is gonna have to change their name. There is no way I'm going to remember the difference between Leshchenko and Lutsenko.

Posted by: Tami at May 14, 2019 12:20 PM (cF8AT)

468 439
What I hate about the stock market swings is I rarely have funds to buy on the dip.

Posted by: Someguy at May 14, 2019 12:14 PM (sqdLZ)

The stock market is based on hysteria. Listen to the market news every day. Yesterday it was down 600 points because of the tarriffs. Watch. Tomorrow it will be up 600 points because of something else. Well, did the tariff problem go away in 24 hours? No. It did not.
The next day it will plunge again because, say, somebody important opines that people might not buy enough Iphones next quarter. Then it will come back up 500 points the next day because ....who knows why?
Millions of dollars trade hands every day due to sheer knee-jerk histrionics.

Posted by: Agent Cooper at May 14, 2019 12:21 PM (bv65J)

469 Funny, the Chinese do the same thing. Start with good batches and then start screwing their customer. Ruins small businesses who are stupid enough to be suckered into it.
Posted by: Someguy

No different than a Chinese buffet.
New restaurant opens. Four Seasons quality food.

By the time the first lease is up, food is around Burger King level.

Posted by: rickb223 at May 14, 2019 12:21 PM (F8EBp)

470 466 Congrats man. Every novel completed is a small victory over yourself.
Posted by: Mark Andrew Edwards, Angry, Radical, Anti-Liberal, and Dangerous: buy ammo at May 14, 2019 12:20 PM (bcbK

============

It's one thing to write one, but to figure out how to honestly look at your work and figure out what is good and bad is hard.

Doing that and being able to improve it is a wonderful feeling.

Posted by: TheJamesMadison, Read Some Movie Thoughts at May 14, 2019 12:21 PM (9cans)

471 451 But since when is anyone on the left "free trade"? Actually, since when are any of them "open borders?"

When illegals are involved.
Posted by: rickb223 at May 14, 2019 12:16 PM (F8EBp)

Big mixup: then they're talking about "open boarders.

Posted by: Deplorable Jay Guevara at May 14, 2019 12:21 PM (6n7nf)

472 >>458 In a truly free market,

In a truly free market, Class 1 railroads could charge whatever price they want of captive shippers, dispense with differential pricing and trackage/haulage rights, and compete in multiple-served markets, and the bulk shippers who tend to constitute captive shippers could not file rate cases with the STB and could just take a really large economic dick in the butt.

Posted by: Zod at May 14, 2019 12:21 PM (Bdeb0)

473 Yeah were is GAYmondo today ?

Posted by: Deep State is In DEEP SHIT at May 14, 2019 12:21 PM (BqBId)

474 Historical analogy: Philip of Macedon, father of Alexander the Great, was able to build a new army and did a complete social rewrite of the entire country. He was able to afford this despite Macedon being poor, but they did have one major resource - trees.

The classical Greeks had cut down all their trees and needed the wood for ship making, etc. I think we can say the Greeks probably wished they had found another source for their wood instead of funding the Macedonian army rebuilding project.

Posted by: William Eaton at May 14, 2019 12:22 PM (MuTTO)

475 ... several months ago i said hereabouts on trump -

"i was a skeptic, i became a supporter, and i was becoming a fan."

i'm a fan.

Posted by: musical jolly chimp at May 14, 2019 12:22 PM (Pg+x7)

476 Ruins small businesses who are stupid enough to be suckered into it.
Posted by: Someguy at May 14, 2019 12:19 PM (sqdLZ)

--------

And a big part of that problem is in enforcement. My grandfather purchased a shipment of steel of China when trade first opened up in the 70s. Went fine. The second, much bigger shipment was simply never delivered. He complained to the State Department over and over again, asking for help, and they treated him as if he didn't exist.

Posted by: Yudhishthira's Dice at May 14, 2019 12:22 PM (AzW6q)

477 "China has some weapons too. They are the largest foreign holder of US Treasury debt, for example, and if they decide to sell some of that debt..."

they would be selling it early, heavily discounted.

Posted by: Mikey NTH - Party of One! Personalized Identity Group Kits Now at The Outrage Outlet! at May 14, 2019 12:22 PM (hLRSq)

478 and could just take a really large economic dick in the butt.
=====

I'm not seeing the problem here....

Posted by: Mayor Buttplug at May 14, 2019 12:22 PM (UyrTF)

479 465 Or "Adibas."
Posted by: Zod

I've got some first quality fake tickets to the show....
Posted by: MikloSlav Marketing, S.R.O. at May 14, 2019 12:20 PM (QzkSJ)

Welcome back my Friend,

To the show that never ends.

Posted by: Don Q. at May 14, 2019 12:22 PM (NgKpN)

480 467 Just a coincidence I'm sure. Nobody on our side is smart enough to have a plan.

Posted by: JackStraw at May 14, 2019 12:15 PM (/tuJf)

One of those men is gonna have to change their name. There is no way I'm going to remember the difference between Leshchenko and Lutsenko.
Posted by: Tami at May 14, 2019 12:20 PM (cF8AT)

==========

It's like a Dostoevksy novel:

L..h.h..k..

and

L.t...k.

I just recognize the shape of the word in terms of its tall letters.

Posted by: TheJamesMadison, Read Some Movie Thoughts at May 14, 2019 12:23 PM (9cans)

481 I'm 2/3 of the way through reading my 4th draft of the next novel I'm publishing, and I'm very happy.

I was bitterly disappointed with the 3rd draft. It was broken pretty
fundamentally. I was on the verge of just giving up on it completely,
but I already have one book I consider a lost cause and I refused to
accept another.

I took 7 weeks to rewrite, and it's vastly improved. Vastly.

It needs a quick once over to fix some small things, but it won't take more than a coupe of days. Maybe three.

July 1st, here I come.

Crystal Embers.

Posted by: TheJamesMadison, Read Some Movie Thoughts at May 14, 2019
*
*
. . .

James,

I know the feeling. I had a mystery novel that was bogged down, so I switched to another genre (what I call "hard-boiled fantasy") entirely. It wound up being a long opus, but worth it. When I came back to the mystery, I saw what the problem was: I was trying to be too cute and complex. I cut out an entire subplot and good riddance, and finished the script within my self-imposed wordage goal.

Posted by: Wolfus Aurelius at May 14, 2019 12:23 PM (elsTe)

482 Trump talked about economists' concerns about tariffs and protectionism is one of his books. I think his statement was "lol get fucked"

Posted by: Roy at May 14, 2019 12:23 PM (fG1QA)

483
Old and busted: No land-war in Asia.
New hotness: Land-war in Asia.

Posted by: Zod at May 14, 2019 12:23 PM (Bdeb0)

484 >>One of those men is gonna have to change their name. There is no way I'm going to remember the difference between Leshchenko and Lutsenko.

Leschenko is the one to keep your eye on in my opinion. He is key to blowing up the Russia collusion scam.

Posted by: JackStraw at May 14, 2019 12:23 PM (/tuJf)

485 474 Historical analogy: Philip of Macedon, father of Alexander the Great, was able to build a new army and did a complete social rewrite of the entire country. He was able to afford this despite Macedon being poor, but they did have one major resource - trees.

The classical Greeks had cut down all their trees and needed the wood for ship making, etc. I think we can say the Greeks probably wished they had found another source for their wood instead of funding the Macedonian army rebuilding project.
Posted by: William Eaton at May 14, 2019 12:22 PM (MuTTO)

==========

Ahh...played by Val Kilmer, the single best part of Oliver Stone's disaster of a movie.

Posted by: TheJamesMadison, Read Some Movie Thoughts at May 14, 2019 12:23 PM (9cans)

486 Not to mention that some Chinese steel is crap. Use
it in a building structure, or a freeway overpass, and people could be
killed.

Posted by: Alberta Oil Peon at May 14, 2019 12:14 PM (7njPr)

Its less than crap. When you can see how bad it is with your eyes without any need for "scientific" testing you know it aspires to be crap.

Posted by: Berserker-Dragonheads Division at May 14, 2019 12:23 PM (9Om/r)

487 "John Bonham was the bestest drummer EVAH"

Ahem

Posted by: Charlie Watts at May 14, 2019 12:24 PM (rJN3l)

488 Millions of dollars trade hands every day due to sheer knee-jerk histrionics.

Posted by: Agent Cooper at May 14, 2019 12:21 PM (bv65J)

======

... and algorithms, but mostly algorithms.

Posted by: ShainS -- Born Again Easter Worshipper at May 14, 2019 12:24 PM (WqPYg)

489
And a big part of that problem is in enforcement. My grandfather purchased a shipment of steel of China when trade first opened up in the 70s. Went fine. The second, much bigger shipment was simply never delivered. He complained to the State Department over and over again, asking for help, and they treated him as if he didn't exist.

Posted by: Yudhishthira's Dice at May 14, 2019 12:22 PM (AzW6q)

Contract enforcement is not a reasonable expectation in international trade. Even the big boys rely almost entirely on mediation and careful transactions.

Posted by: Someguy at May 14, 2019 12:24 PM (sqdLZ)

490 Tariffs yes, tariffs no, balanced playing field, blah blah blah.

Not enough condemnation of the clinton, bidunce and ohblahblah juntas that sold our technology to china.

And I'm sure we can get round to blaming feckin' idiot carter too.

Posted by: Boxx Culvert, man about town. at May 14, 2019 12:24 PM (951Yv)

491 The stock market is based on hysteria. Listen to the
market news every day. Yesterday it was down 600 points because of the
tarriffs. Watch. Tomorrow it will be up 600 points because of something
else. Well, did the tariff problem go away in 24 hours? No. It did not.
The
next day it will plunge again because, say, somebody important opines
that people might not buy enough Iphones next quarter. Then it will come
back up 500 points the next day because ....who knows why?
Millions of dollars trade hands every day due to sheer knee-jerk histrionics.

Posted by: Agent Cooper at May 14, 2019
*
*
. . .

Yes . . . "Investors were spooked." What are they, a herd of horses frightened into stampeding off a cliff?

Posted by: Wolfus Aurelius at May 14, 2019 12:25 PM (elsTe)

492 Yes it's good for America to protect manufacturing in the US because even if the cost of labor or the cost of manufacturing is higher here, the money stays here. It pays for schools here, and medical care, and retirement plans and you name it. Sure some consumer products would cost more, but not Apple products as an example. You know why? Because even though they're being made by slaves in China and cost next to nothing to make and ship here, Apple charges what the market will bear. That's just good business sense. But that means Apple pockets the difference, and American workers get squat. Trump understands this. Tariffs are not just about punishing foreign sweatshops, they're about encouraging US manufacturing. Protecting US manufacturing protects US workers and our economy.

I know a guy who had a small shop powder coating aluminum parts. He had a long-time major client who contracted with him and loved his work, BUT started sending his work to China. He explained that even though the work was crappy and he had to sort them himself and toss out many more parts, it was still much cheaper to have his parts coated in China (where they were probably made in the first place). So the guy closed his shop and started pumping septic tanks instead.

Posted by: starboardhelm at May 14, 2019 12:25 PM (hOtJL)

493
Posted by: JackStraw at May 14, 2019 12:23 PM (/tuJf)

------

Question because you understand the process better than I do...

I know the OIG does not file charges or determine guilt. But, can they refer people to DoJ for prosecution?

Posted by: Yudhishthira's Dice at May 14, 2019 12:25 PM (AzW6q)

494 Funny, the Chinese do the same thing. Start with good batches and then start screwing their customer. Ruins small businesses who are stupid enough to be suckered into it.

This is called 'quality fade' and it's endemic in Chinese sourcing. The first shipment is perfect, then they start playing games to see if you're paying attention.

I cannot imagine the Japanese doing the same sort of thing routinely, unless they're outsourcing to a Chinese firm.

Posted by: JEM at May 14, 2019 12:25 PM (8erNz)

495 & Gina Haspel Now CIA Head was in London when all this Coup shit was happening, to say she knows where all the bodies are buried would be an understatement

Posted by: Deep State is In DEEP SHIT at May 14, 2019 12:25 PM (BqBId)

496 Trump talked about economists' concerns about tariffs and protectionism is one of his books. I think his statement was "lol get fucked"

And I have to say, I've come around from my absolutist free trade undergrad days.

Tariffs do have their place I think, certainly in this case where we are taking care of an extreme trade imbalance that is being weaponized by China. And even the terms of the deal are something I can get behind...hey China, manufacture here in the US and you won't have a tariff.

It's hard for me to criticize this.

Posted by: WitchDoktor, as if anyone gives a shit at May 14, 2019 12:25 PM (tVWQB)

497 481 James,

I know the feeling. I had a mystery novel that was bogged down, so I switched to another genre (what I call "hard-boiled fantasy") entirely. It wound up being a long opus, but worth it. When I came back to the mystery, I saw what the problem was: I was trying to be too cute and complex. I cut out an entire subplot and good riddance, and finished the script within my self-imposed wordage goal.
Posted by: Wolfus Aurelius at May 14, 2019 12:23 PM (elsTe)

==========

Nice.

I learned a long time ago that distance is key to figuring out your own work. Creating that distance is a part of my overall process now.

I was so confident of that 3rd draft, too. A good friend of mine had read it and was super pissed at me because of a plot turn late in the book. I thought it meant that the whole thing worked. It did not.

3 years later, and I saw the problems in great detail.

Posted by: TheJamesMadison, Read Some Movie Thoughts at May 14, 2019 12:25 PM (9cans)

498 I know the OIG does not file charges or determine guilt. But, can they refer people to DoJ for prosecution?
Posted by: Yudhishthira's Dice at May 14, 2019 12:25 PM (AzW6q)
******
Yes

Posted by: Deep State is In DEEP SHIT at May 14, 2019 12:26 PM (BqBId)

499 The next day it will plunge again because, say, somebody important opines that people might not buy enough Iphones next quarter. Then it will come back up 500 points the next day because ....who knows why?
Millions of dollars trade hands every day due to sheer knee-jerk histrionics.
Posted by: Agent Cooper at May 14, 2019 12:21 PM (bv65J)

Its become nothing more than a betting pool, and the bet is does the stock go up or down.

When you can make money on a stock going down without actually owning said stock? (naked short sales). The market can become insane due to Computer trading.

Simple solution to make the market a tool for investment again, a Law that says you MUST hold a stock for 24 hours after buying.

Posted by: Don Q. at May 14, 2019 12:26 PM (NgKpN)

500
Not to mention that some Chinese steel is crap. Use it in a building structure, or a freeway overpass, and people could be killed.
Posted by: Alberta Oil Peon at May 14, 2019 12:14 PM (7njPr)

Chinese quality control is a joke: they have been caught fudging the temperature numbers on their steel production.

Posted by: Flawless Male Logic at May 14, 2019 12:26 PM (TAmPV)

501 The stock market is based on hysteria. Listen to the market news every day. Yesterday it was down 600 points because of the tarriffs. Watch. Tomorrow it will be up 600 points because of something else. Well, did the tariff problem go away in 24 hours? No. It did not.
The next day it will plunge again because, say, somebody important opines that people might not buy enough Iphones next quarter. Then it will come back up 500 points the next day because ....who knows why?
Millions of dollars trade hands every day due to sheer knee-jerk histrionics.
Posted by: Agent Cooper at May 14, 2019 12:21 PM (bv65J)

I laugh when "economists" talk about the efficient market hypothesis. It should be called the "efficient market wish." They employ that "hypothesis" as a fig leaf to justify the use of calculus (continuity) as they struggle to pull economics kicking and screaming into being a science, which it is not. The economy in general, and the stock market in particular, is driven at least as much by sentiment and expectations (i.e., psychology) as it is hard numbers.

Leftists postulate all kinds of excuses for the dismal economy under Obongo, including businesses willfully hobbling their own enterprises. In fact, I suspect the biggest factor was simply the negative sentiment at having some Commie apparatchik in charge, and the expectation that he would do unpredictable but counter-productive things. So businesses hunkered down, and the economy sputtered.

Posted by: Deplorable Jay Guevara at May 14, 2019 12:26 PM (6n7nf)

502 Aaaaaaaaaahem.

Posted by: Neal Peart at May 14, 2019 12:26 PM (w7C7U)

503 In a truly free market, acting in my self interest
will always "bridle" your self interest. In the end, if we wish to come
to an exchange of goods and services, we will either excercise our
discretion to not trade OR reach a mutually agreeable agreement.
Posted by: fixerupper

Absolutely. But both parties are acting in their own self interest, not according to some bullshit bureaucratically orchestrated ponzi scheme.
Posted by: Roland THTG

The problem is, how does each party define their self interest? Because those differences matter. Greatly.

Posted by: Brother Cavil at May 14, 2019 12:27 PM (AM1GF)

504 Does anyone have wood for my sheep??

Posted by: dr sheldon cooper at May 14, 2019 12:27 PM (Dh1wo)

505 Tom Fitton @TomFitton
3h
If you want to know why Hillary Clinton wasn't prosecuted, it was because the Obama WH was involved in the Clinton email cover-up. To prosecute Hillary would have been to implicate President Obama and people around him.

Posted by: Deep State is In DEEP SHIT at May 14, 2019 12:27 PM (BqBId)

506
Market crash? I'm up 2.8% this AM and 31% since Jan 2017...

Posted by: Joe Blowme at May 14, 2019 12:27 PM (n2qRY)

507 In fact, an Income tax is morally bankrupt.

Its a throw back to forcing us to be peasants in a feudal system, where we owe labor to our Lord, the State (but that was actually less than our Income tax, you only owed your Lord ONE day per week).

Add in Property tax where you RENT your land from your Lord, the State yearly, or they kick you off your land?

We are a feudal system of taxation, they just updated the terminology.
Posted by: Don Q. at May 14, 2019 12:15 PM (NgKpN)

Taxation is theft.

Some is sort of a little less bad than others. Property tax is the worst because it destroys the concept of property at all. Income tax is less-awful than property tax because at least if you're not making an income they can't tax you. Sales tax might be slightly less-bad than income tax because most people can be thrifty if they choose. Taxes on businesses are just passed on to employees and customers, so that's no better than income or sales taxes.

It's all theft.

But property tax is by far the most destructive.

Posted by: Synova (reversion to pseudonymous) at May 14, 2019 12:28 PM (BD/yx)

508 Yes . . . "Investors were spooked." What are they, a herd of horses frightened into stampeding off a cliff?

Posted by: Wolfus Aurelius at May 14, 2019 12:25 PM (elsTe)

I often say that to my husband when there's a market downturn..."whatta buncha hair on fire snowflakes."

Where are they going with their money...Euro markets? Pffft.

Posted by: Tami at May 14, 2019 12:28 PM (cF8AT)

509 Contract enforcement is not a reasonable expectation in international trade. Even the big boys rely almost entirely on mediation and careful transactions.
Posted by: Someguy at May 14, 2019 12:24 PM (sqdLZ)

--------

Oh, sure. I shouldn't have said enforcement, that's not right.

He was being ignored by the Chinese firm, mediation was impossible, which is why he was asking the State Department to intervene on his behalf.

They won't even put in a threatening word for Americans with state run Chinese business, though, because they lurves them some China.

Posted by: Yudhishthira's Dice at May 14, 2019 12:28 PM (AzW6q)

510 3 years later, and I saw the problems in great detail.
Posted by: TheJamesMadison, Read Some Movie Thoughts at May 14, 2019 12:25 PM (9cans)

Also true on the micro-scale. If you REALLY want to find every typo in galley proofs, return them "corrected" and read the published article. Typos jump off the page at you like a pop-up book.

Posted by: Deplorable Jay Guevara at May 14, 2019 12:29 PM (6n7nf)

511 zerohedge @zerohedge
1m
LAVROV SAYS HE HANDED POMPEO MEMORANDUM ON US INTERFERENCE IN RUSSIAN HOME AFFAIRS

Posted by: Deep State is In DEEP SHIT at May 14, 2019 12:29 PM (BqBId)

512 495 & Gina Haspel Now CIA Head was in London when all this Coup shit was happening, to say she knows where all the bodies are buried would be an understatement
Posted by: Deep State is In DEEP SHIT at May 14, 2019 12:25 PM (BqBId)

If they could tie Steele to Teresa May? Government would fall. It would force an election.

One that it looks like Nigel Farage's Brexit Party would win right now.

I'd say do it.

Posted by: Don Q. at May 14, 2019 12:29 PM (NgKpN)

513 Tariffs and the threat of using them is a tool to use in getting trade agreements and such. But I would like to bitch slap all the MFM communists who will generally cry about workers' plights and were all on board with King Putt propping up Wall Street with "QE" and such; gleefully gloating about the stock market dips and trying to stampede Wall Street et al into a serious market panic because they want Trump to fail and us deplorables to be hurt. SMH for those evil shits.

Posted by: PaleRider is simply irredeemable at May 14, 2019 12:29 PM (pAkRe)

514 If the imposition of tariffs leads to the abolition of all tariffs, then it is a good thing.

If you charge a 20% tariff, and I charge 5%, you are disadvantaging me in free trade, hurting my manufacturers, and your consumers.

If I raise my tariffs to 30%, then the situation is reversed.

If we both agree to reduce tariffs to zero, then we both win.

That is what Trump is trying to achieve.

Posted by: Inspector Kemp at May 14, 2019 12:29 PM (rgPG6)

515 >>I know the OIG does not file charges or determine guilt. But, can they refer people to DoJ for prosecution?

Yes. In fact that is one of their primary duties.

And they don't wait until the investigation is done. As soon as they uncover what they consider potential criminal behavior they are supposed to immediately contact the DOJ and turn the issue over to them.

That's why when I said above Huber was assigned to work with Horowitz it is important in that that kind of arrangement only happens AFTER potential criminal behavior is uncovered.

An AG doesn't just appoint a federal prosecutor like Huber or Durham on a whim. They have to have good reason to suspect underlying criminal activity.

Posted by: JackStraw at May 14, 2019 12:29 PM (/tuJf)

516
Simple solution to make the market a tool for investment again, a Law that says you MUST hold a stock for 24 hours after buying.

Posted by: Don Q. at May 14, 2019 12:26 PM (NgKpN)

They do represent actual ownership interests. If a guy wants to short a firm I like, fine, I'll just buy more.

Posted by: Someguy at May 14, 2019 12:29 PM (sqdLZ)

517 With respect to tariffs, what CH is mostly arguing is against arbitrary tariffs, which I would agree with. They are not arguing, pre se, against tariffs as a tool to mitigate unfair or noncompetitive trade practices. In that latter regard one could argue they remove distortions and level the market. That's what Trump is doing

Posted by: Marcus T at May 14, 2019 12:29 PM (VpIIl)

518 Yes . . . "Investors were spooked." What are they, a herd of horses frightened into stampeding off a cliff?

Posted by: Wolfus Aurelius at May 14, 2019 12:25 PM (elsTe)

In a word, yes.

Posted by: Deplorable Jay Guevara at May 14, 2019 12:30 PM (6n7nf)

519 "Rock Drummers, um Keith Moon, Neal Peart, Ginger Baker, Nick Mason, Terry Bozzio, Ian Paice, Bill Bruford, And Stewart Copeland make my list. Bonham is kinda sloppy, I never was very impressed with him. For some demented, inconceivable reason, people put Ringo Starr on "best drummer" lists and he was freaking awful."

Anyone mention Kenny Aranoff?

Posted by: Boxx Culvert, man about town. at May 14, 2019 12:30 PM (951Yv)

520 Say wut?

Posted by: Joe Blowme at May 14, 2019 12:30 PM (n2qRY)

521 Leschenko is the one to keep your eye on in my opinion. He is key to blowing up the Russia collusion scam.

Posted by: JackStraw at May 14, 2019 12:23 PM (/tuJf)

Imma just let you tell me when stuff happens. Too many characters in this play. And now their names are sounding alike.

Posted by: Tami at May 14, 2019 12:30 PM (cF8AT)

522 Yes . . . "Investors were spooked." What are they, a herd of horses frightened into stampeding off a cliff?[/]

s/Investors/Traders/
s/horses/lemmings/

And the answer to your question is "yes."

Posted by: Bob the Bilderberg at May 14, 2019 12:31 PM (Oc6vY)

523 But property tax is by far the most destructive.

Posted by: Synova (reversion to pseudonymous) at May 14, 2019 12:28 PM (BD/yx)

Yup, paid the house off a few months ago and it almost doesn't feel it thanks to the $900 a month tax bill.

Posted by: Berserker-Dragonheads Division at May 14, 2019 12:31 PM (9Om/r)

524
Not to mention that some Chinese steel is crap. Use it in a building structure, or a freeway overpass, and people could be killed.
Posted by: Alberta Oil Peon

Not using Chinese steel in your bridge is xenophobic and racist!

Posted by: Bertram Cabot, Jr. at May 14, 2019 12:31 PM (aKsyK)

525 TheHill:
Journalism shifting more to opinion-based content, 'relies heavily on argumentation and advocacy': report

Posted by: SMOD at May 14, 2019 12:31 PM (QkjLD)

526 Posted by: Synova (reversion to pseudonymous) at May 14, 2019 12:28 PM (BD/yx)

You get less of what you Tax.

So we owning property, and your labor.

How about we tax consumption through a Sales Tax instead.

Basic human nature.

Posted by: Don Q. at May 14, 2019 12:31 PM (NgKpN)

527 If you want to know why Hillary Clinton wasn't prosecuted, it was because the Obama WH was involved in the Clinton email cover-up. To prosecute Hillary would have been to implicate President Obama and people around him.

Posted by: Deep State is In DEEP SHIT at May 14, 2019 12:27 PM (BqBId)

No shit Sherlock? Anyone with half a synapse to spare realized that Hillary using her own e-mail server meant that everyone who was e-mailing her in her official capacity as SOS was breaking all of the classified documents laws. And the people who e-mail the SOS are high level officials in the administration and Congress.

Posted by: Mikey NTH - Party of One! Personalized Identity Group Kits Now at The Outrage Outlet! at May 14, 2019 12:32 PM (hLRSq)

528
If they could tie Steele to Teresa May? Government would fall. It would force an election.

#FakeNews loves calling him a "former British spy" but we don't know that for sure.

Posted by: Flawless Male Logic at May 14, 2019 12:32 PM (TAmPV)

529 John Cardillo @johncardillo
9s
Barr's Special Prosecutor John Durham is one of the guys who put dirty FBI agent John Connolly in prison for conspiring with Whitey Bulger.

The Attorney General is serious about prosecuting those involved in #SpyGate.

Posted by: Deep State is In DEEP SHIT at May 14, 2019 12:32 PM (BqBId)

530 The stock market is based on hysteria. Listen to the market news every day. Yesterday it was down 600 points because of the tarriffs. Watch. Tomorrow it will be up 600 points because of something else. Well, did the tariff problem go away in 24 hours? No. It did not.

Yeah, there was a time when the stock market was a better indicator of economic mood and trends, but its not any more. Part of the problem -- probably the main problem -- is microtransactions done by computer at basically lightspeed. When you had to read the news, check the numbers, look at the stocks, then call in and make a transaction there was a lot of time for reflection, experience, gut instinct, and wisdom to temper activity.

Now its based on algorithms and getting there first, which makes it even more volatile and hysterical than ever.

Posted by: Christopher R Taylor at May 14, 2019 12:32 PM (39g3+)

531
Ahh...played by Val Kilmer, the single best part of Oliver Stone's disaster of a movie.

Posted by: TheJamesMadison, Read Some Movie Thoughts at May 14, 2019 12:23 PM (9cans)

Which of Stone's 24 different versions of the film?

Posted by: IllTemperedCur at May 14, 2019 12:32 PM (veoSD)

532 Holy fuck Beserker.

Posted by: Mr Aspirin Factory at May 14, 2019 12:33 PM (w7C7U)

533 I cannot imagine the Japanese doing the same sort of thing routinely, unless they're outsourcing to a Chinese firm.
Posted by: JEM at May 14, 2019 12:25 PM (8erNz)

------

I do know that whichever SCA firm supplies Spyderco with VG-10 has been caught at it several times. And they proudly make that in Seki City.

Can't speak for the other ones.

Posted by: Yudhishthira's Dice at May 14, 2019 12:33 PM (AzW6q)

534 But property tax is by far the most destructive.

Posted by: Synova (reversion to pseudonymous) at May 14, 2019 12:28 PM (BD/yx)

Yup, paid the house off a few months ago and it almost doesn't feel it thanks to the $900 a month tax bill.
Posted by: Berserker-Dragonheads Division

You don't own it if they can take it.

Posted by: rickb223 at May 14, 2019 12:33 PM (F8EBp)

535 nood wood!

Posted by: dr sheldon cooper at May 14, 2019 12:33 PM (Dh1wo)

536 >>No shit Sherlock? Anyone with half a synapse to spare realized that Hillary using her own e-mail server meant that everyone who was e-mailing her in her official capacity as SOS was breaking all of the classified documents laws. And the people who e-mail the SOS are high level officials in the administration and Congress.

And we already know that someone, likely Strzok, changed the wording in Comey's Hillary exoneration speech to replace the name Obama with something like senior government official when describing the email from Obama they found on Hillary's server.

Posted by: JackStraw at May 14, 2019 12:34 PM (/tuJf)

537 Which of Stone's 24 different versions of the film?

Posted by: IllTemperedCur at May 14, 2019
*
*
. . .

The one where Angelina Jolie got totally naked, of course!

Posted by: Wolfus Aurelius at May 14, 2019 12:34 PM (elsTe)

538 Barr's Special Prosecutor John Durham is one of the guys who put dirty FBI agent John Connolly in prison for conspiring with Whitey Bulger.

Oh, Mueller isn't gonna like this

Posted by: Christopher R Taylor at May 14, 2019 12:34 PM (39g3+)

539 Don't mind me, I'm busy being very, very quiet.

Posted by: Loretta Lynch at May 14, 2019 12:34 PM (hjaPQ)

540 529 John Cardillo @johncardillo
9s
Barr's Special Prosecutor John Durham is one of the guys who put dirty FBI agent John Connolly in prison for conspiring with Whitey Bulger.

The Attorney General is serious about prosecuting those involved in #SpyGate.
Posted by: Deep State is In DEEP SHIT at May 14, 2019 12:32 PM (BqBId)

And who else was involved in the Whitey Bulger crap?

Would that be... Mueller?

Posted by: Don Q. at May 14, 2019 12:34 PM (NgKpN)

541 55s
Florida Governor Ron DeSantis says that Russian hackers accessed voter databases in two counties in Florida!!
++++
HMMMM Democrats posing as Russians again

Posted by: Deep State is In DEEP SHIT at May 14, 2019 12:35 PM (BqBId)

542 531
Ahh...played by Val Kilmer, the single best part of Oliver Stone's disaster of a movie.

Posted by: TheJamesMadison, Read Some Movie Thoughts at May 14, 2019 12:23 PM (9cans)

Which of Stone's 24 different versions of the film?
Posted by: IllTemperedCur at May 14, 2019 12:32 PM (veoSD)

===========

Theatrical. Haven't seen any of the others, but I am interested in seeing the Final Cut. Cause it's final.

Posted by: TheJamesMadison, Read Some Movie Thoughts at May 14, 2019 12:35 PM (9cans)

543 Simple solution to make the market a tool for investment again, a Law that says you MUST hold a stock for 24 hours after buying.

Posted by: Don Q. at May 14, 2019 12:26 PM (NgKpN)

They do represent actual ownership interests. If a guy wants to short a firm I like, fine, I'll just buy more.
Posted by: Someguy at May 14, 2019 12:29 PM (sqdLZ)

I agree with you, and respectfully disagree with Don Q. Speculators - whether in the stock market, or the real estate market, ticket scalpers, or whatever - serve a valuable function, IMO. They guarantee market liquidity, so that people who want in can get in, and those who want out can get out. That helps to keep pricing information current. Market liquidity is one reason the NYSE used to have (maybe still does have) market makers in individual equities.

Contrast that with, e.g., collectible art. What is a given piece worth? Who knows, really? You can't find out unless you hold an auction, and then the piece is sold.

Posted by: Deplorable Jay Guevara at May 14, 2019 12:35 PM (6n7nf)

544 Would that be... Mueller?
Posted by: Don Q. at May 14, 2019 12:34 PM (NgKpN)
*****
I believe so

Posted by: Deep State is In DEEP SHIT at May 14, 2019 12:35 PM (BqBId)

545 525
TheHill:

Journalism shifting more to opinion-based content, 'relies heavily on argumentation and advocacy': report

Posted by: SMOD at May 14, 2019 12:31 PM (QkjLD)

=====

LOL. Why are you posting 50-year-old headlines?

Posted by: ShainS -- Born Again Easter Worshipper at May 14, 2019 12:36 PM (WqPYg)

546 And we already know that someone, likely Strzok, changed the wording in Comey's Hillary exoneration speech to replace the name Obama with something like senior government official when describing the email from Obama they found on Hillary's server.

Posted by: JackStraw at May 14, 2019 12:34 PM (/tuJf)

He also changed 'gross negligence' to 'extremely careless'.

Posted by: Tami at May 14, 2019 12:36 PM (cF8AT)

547 "China has some weapons too. They are the largest
foreign holder of US Treasury debt, for example, and if they decide to
sell some of that debt..."

--------------------------------------
they would be selling it early, heavily discounted.

Posted by: Mikey NTH - Party of One! Personalized Identity Group Kits
Now at The Outrage Outlet! at May 14, 2019 12:22 PM (hLRSq)

Debt is one of those things too, like so much else that comes up with this economics business, in a very real sense, it is artificial. It exists because we decide it does.

In a world where total war has broken out, debt is one of the first things that will go.

Posted by: BurtTC at May 14, 2019 12:37 PM (a2xio)

548 Sen. Bernie Sanders (I-Vt.) has seen his support drop sharply among the young voters that have powered his rise in Democratic politics, according to a new poll.

The survey from Morning Consult finds that Sanders's support among people between the ages of 18 and 29 has dropped from 45 percent in March to 33 percent in May.

Posted by: SMOD at May 14, 2019 12:37 PM (QkjLD)

549 532
Holy fuck Beserker.

Posted by: Mr Aspirin Factory at May 14, 2019 12:33 PM (w7C7U)

======

I'm going to go out on a limb and guess he lives in my ex-state of California.

Posted by: ShainS -- Born Again Easter Worshipper at May 14, 2019 12:38 PM (WqPYg)

550 The current 'system' of supposed 'free-trade' is merely Chinese Mercantilism flying under a false flag.
ESSENTIAL Industries must be protected. Tariffs required.
VAST swathes of society must be provided at least opportunities NOT in the 'services' area. This should not be an exercise in neo-feudalism. That didn't work out very well for most. Tariffs required.
This is NOT a Win-Win situation when you cut through all the chaff. It's a Lose-Win situation with a segment of the losing society having a vested interest in LOSING. Tariffs required.
Too Big To Fail. Tariffs therefore indulged or at least tolerated since options simply aren't there.
China is NOT friendly except on its singular terms. Tariffs required.
Tariffs are both a necessary economic and a valuable social weapon. Only globalists without any true' home', believe otherwise. The world does not exist to serve an 'economy'. An economy exists only to serve the world. Or parts of it in this case.

Posted by: Dougf at May 14, 2019 12:39 PM (FgCIv)

551 487 "John Bonham was the bestest drummer EVAH"

Ahem
Posted by: Charlie Watts at May 14, 2019 12:24 PM (rJN3l)

Pikers. Bet you can't rival me painting skills either.

Posted by: Ringo Starr at May 14, 2019 12:39 PM (VfTHz)

552 At least your has a real name. Wore my "Rolodex" brand watch around with a grin...
Posted by: Anon a mouse at May 14, 2019 12:00 PM (6qErC)

I would quite happily wear a fake Rolex, just cock a snook at all the mooks who think that owning a Rolex is some sort of mark of distinction. To me, a watch is an appliance that tells time. Full stop.

Posted by: Alberta Oil Peon at May 14, 2019 12:40 PM (7njPr)

553 I cannot imagine the Japanese doing the same sort of thing routinely, unless they're outsourcing to a Chinese firm.
Posted by: JEM

I work for an American subsidiary of a very large Japanese company. So I actually do work with the Japanese sometimes.

They are very skeptical of Chinese quality. They do have some factories in China, and watch them like hawks to make sure they don't screw up.

Having also been to China, you can find whatever you want to find. Bad working conditions, water and air pollution (really bad in a visit to Beijing in 2001), and lots more. The Chinese people are usually very likable and friendly, and have been and are working hard to climb out of the grinding poverty from before (before and during WWII) and during the Mao years.

But they do spit a lot. Don't go into a Chinese restaurant in China and look at the spittoons. It will turn your stomach.
Everybody works, and everybody seems to have enough to eat.
Which again, is way different than say...India.

Posted by: Bozo Conservative....unfrozen caveman moron at May 14, 2019 12:48 PM (vcOmj)

554 John Bonham was the bestest drummer EVAH"

Ahem
Posted by: Charlie Watts at May 14, 2019 12:24 PM (rJN3l)

Pikers. Bet you can't rival me painting skills either.
Posted by: Ringo Starr

Ringo actually said once upon a time, that he wanted his son to learn drumming from Uncle Keith....Keith Moon.

Posted by: Bozo Conservative....unfrozen caveman moron at May 14, 2019 12:51 PM (vcOmj)

555 Bill Bruford, best drummer.

Surprisingly good drummer: Don Henley.

Posted by: BeckoningChasm at May 14, 2019 12:58 PM (AB9tT)

556 Yup, paid the house off a few months ago and it almost doesn't feel it thanks to the $900 a month tax bill.
Posted by: Berserker-Dragonheads Division at May 14, 2019 12:31 PM (9Om/r)

Crap! I pay about $1600 CDN per year here in Alberta on three acres with outbuildings, and under a thousand USD per year on the house in Arizona.

Posted by: Alberta Oil Peon at May 14, 2019 01:01 PM (7njPr)

557 John Bonham was the bestest drummer EVAH"

Ahem
Posted by: Charlie Watts at May 14, 2019 12:24 PM (rJN3l)

meh

Posted by: Roland TR-808 at May 14, 2019 01:03 PM (0CeRG)

558 John Bonham was the bestest drummer EVAH"

Ahem
Posted by: Charlie Watts at May 14, 2019 12:24 PM (rJN3l)

meh
Posted by: Roland TR-808 at May 14, 2019 01:03 PM

Pfffft.

Posted by: Buddy Rich at May 14, 2019 01:08 PM (xR1UF)

559 I would refer any and all to Hamilton's "Report on Manufactures". Tariffs are to be used to not just shield American producers but also to encourage the development of new domestic production. And in the present state of affairs to encourage the restoration of domestic production. Hell even FDR recognized the need for domestic production of critical baseline goods as necessary to the preservation of the republic.

Posted by: Davis at May 14, 2019 01:26 PM (v4K82)

560 Re: the tariffs, the media idiots keep focusing on how it will affect the cost of goods. But that's a small side issue. Our President needs to win this war before China steals all our intellectual property (both commercial and military). That's where we're getting killed here. Screw the concern over how much my next pair of shoes will cost.

Posted by: Forheremenaremen at May 14, 2019 01:34 PM (RLiOt)

561 Tariffs were a critical component to the justification for the Civil war. The Democrats were pretty opposed to them back then as well.

They were also PO'd about not being able to count non "citizens" for the pu8rpose of assigning representation in the Congress, just like they are today where they hope to get additional representation for all the illegals in their cities.

Maybe they should be putting those Civil War statues they tore down back up again!

Posted by: TSgt Ciz at May 14, 2019 01:36 PM (P+Ru9)

562 As a former free trader....the economic arguments against tariffs are not nearly as strong (or even right) as I once thought. It is roughly akin to taxes...the world would be a lot better economically without them, but they exist, and now it is a question of form.

If you argue 'taxes in the form of tariffs' vs 'no taxes' then no taxes can usually win. If you argue 'taxes in the form of tariffs' vs 'higher other forms of domestic taxes' tariffs almost always come out ahead, mostly on second and third order effects.

It doesn't take a lot of domestic workers working productively and paying taxes vs being on the dole and opiates to make even modest benefits of onshoring work quite attractive economically. But economists always try to leave the real world out via their assumptions.

Posted by: Rather Not at May 14, 2019 02:42 PM (EHil0)

563 if our trade policies didn't put us at such a huge disadvantage we wouldn't even be talking about this

Posted by: shoey at May 14, 2019 09:39 PM (lOf8d)

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