Thank God It's FriGAINZZZ

See correction and acknowledgement at post's end. By the way, the end is probably a good place to start -- this guy doing the What I've Learned videos puts this pretty succinctly.

Today's GAINZZZ thread is about re-GAINZZZing your insulin sensitivity.

I get a lot of people who seem to be sort of normal-weight pushing back against this whole low-carb/fasting thing.

Let me explain it more than I have previously.

Many of these people think that they're not prone to weight gain because they don't "eat too much" and "get some exercise."

In fact, it's the opposite. They don't eat too much and they get some exercise because they're not prone to weight gain.

It sounds strange, but fatness itself causes fatness. And giving advice to those prone to weight gain based upon what "works" for a person without that problem is like a non-diabetic instructing a diabetic that "a few donuts here and there won't kill you."

Well, for a diabetic, they just might. Different metabolisms respond differently to different stimuli.

Okay, so here's what insulin resistance is.

By the way -- that term might sound strange. Insulin resistance is the bad thing, and insulin sensitivity is actually the good thing -- though it would be easy to assume the "resistance" is the good thing and the sensitivity the bad one.

Let's look at how insulin is supposed to work -- and how it does work, in a normal, not-disturbed metabolism.

1. You eat protein or especially carbs.

2. These get broken down and enter the blood as glucose. (Protein would take longer to enter as glucose, but it can and does happen, to a lesser extent).

3. Your body cannot take too much glucose in the bloodstream at once -- I think it can only tolerate 10 grams of dissolved glucose in the blood at any one time, or something. But a big carb heavy meal might dump 70 or more grams of glucose into the blood in the hour or two after a meal. Having too much glucose in your blood is called hyperglycemia, a potentially very serious condition frequently experienced by diabetics.

4. Your body senses that there's too much glucose and your pancreas begins pumping out insulin.

5. The cells of your muscle and liver and your fat cell storage sites -- having a normal level of sensitivity to insulin, and let me repeat, assuming a normal level of sensitivity to insulin -- bond at the cells' receptor sites. The insulin molecules, bonded at the receptors, now tell the various cells to start taking in glucose, to get it out of the blood stream. A certain amount of glucose can be stored (in the form of glycogen) in the muscle, and some in the liver. Some can be used immediately by muscle if you're exercising at the time. The rest goes to fat cells, to be packaged away for long-term storage as fatty triglycerides.

6. Once your blood glucose levels are in an acceptable range, the body detects this too, and tells the pancreas to stop pumping out insulin. Again: assuming a normal sensitivity to insulin.

7. Over a period of minutes to hours, the insulin begins unbonding from cell receptors and gets recycled or excreted. This is important, because it means 1, no further glucose will be swept out of the blood (which can cause lethargy, or even low blood sugar (hypoglycemia)), and 2, it means you can begin burning fat again.

See, the thing I don't talk about much is that most normal weight or athletic people are routinely in the state of "ketosis" -- fat burning. Ketosis is not some weird body function that weird dieters trick their body into. It's the state that most healthy people are supposed to be in, at least periodically, between meals.

If you don't have any glucose coming into your body, and you need some, the body is supposed to send out hormone-sensitive lipase (and other fat-burning hormones) to your fat cells and tells them: We need energy, start breaking that fat down into smaller molecules which can be metabolized for energy.

Here's the thing:

The various fat burning hormones are opposed by, and blocked by, insulin. Hormones tend to work in pairs, one "on" and the other "off," and "insulin" is the "on" switch for gaining fat (sending glucose to fat cells) and the "off" switch for hormones which tell fat cells to release their stored energy to be made into ketones.

So when you have a lot of insulin in your body, you can't burn fat. (Or, at least, you can burn very little.)

So let me finish up this long step: In a person with normal sensitivity to insulin, their insulin levels aren't all that high, and insulin starts getting swept away to be disposed of when it's no longer needed, and now cell receptor sites are free to accept the fat burning hormones which tells fat cells "start burning fat."

Upshot: In a person with a non-dysfunctional metabolism, all this hormonal signalling works pretty well. If they have too much glucose in their blood, the pancreas sends out some insulin -- not a ton, just enough to do the job! -- and some glucose gets swept out. Then the insulin goes away, and fat-burning hormones are now free to tell fat-storage sites to burn fat when it's needed.

Result: You don't feel tired or lethargic after meals. You don't feel hungry soon after meals, because your blood has enough glucose in it to keep going. And you don't gain much fat, because your insulin-sensitive hormone is frequently able to tell your fat storage sites to give up fat as needed, and they're not cockblocked from doing so by insulin.

Okay. Now let's look at a person with a disturbed or dysfunctional or "dysregulated" metatolism:

1. You eat some protein or -- bad news! -- carbs.

2. These are broken down and enter your blood as glucose.

3. Just as with a person without a dysregulated metabolism, your body senses there's too much glucose in your blood, and

4, signals your pancreas to start pumping out insulin.

5. Here's the problem. The cells of the body can learn to tolerate insulin, if they've seen too much of it. Just as an alcoholic develops a tolerance to alcohol, or a smoker finds he needs three cigarettes to give him the lift that one used to do, so too can cell receptors grow to tolerate insulin, and develop a resistance to insulin -- a resistance which can only be overcome with an even bigger dose of insulin.

In other words, the normal dose of insulin which is supposed to bond to cells and tell them "start taking glucose out of the blood" fails to do so. The insulin level is just too low to get the cells to do what they're supposed to.

So the pancreas pumps out more insulin. It still doesn't trigger the cells to take in glucose.

6. In a normally-insulin-sensitive person, at this point the pancreas would detect that glucose levels are now in an acceptable range, and will stop pumping out insulin.

But in an insulin-resistant person, the normal dose of insulin hasn't worked.

So the pancreas pumps out more. It still doesn't activate the cells to take in insulin.

After pumping out a level of insulin which can be 300-400% higher (or even higher) than that which a normal-weight person produces, the cells finally get the message and start letting glucose into the liver and muscles.

The amount of insulin that gets flooded into the blood in an insulin-resistant person -- also known as a "fat person" -- can be pretty dramatic, compared to that in the blood of a normal-weight person throughout the day; you can see where the meals are eaten. It's pretty obvious.

This chart has colors. You may not believe in Science, but you believe in colors, don't you?

Few things to note from that chart:

* A fat person's fasted insulin -- that is, his default blood insulin even in the fasted (pre-meal) state -- is already higher, permanently, 24-hours-round-the-clock, than the normal weight person.

* His insulin rises far, far higher than the normal weight person's, even above his normal fasted insulin, which is, again, already elevated.

* His insulin remains at high levels longer than the normal weight person's.

Now, finally, yes, the insulin works here, and glucose gets swept out of the blood into the cells, and the pancreas turns off the insulin pumps.

7. But since there's now such a high level of insulin in the blood, too much glucose gets swept out, and the fat person now experiences the very weird condition of being tired and being hungry, though having just eaten. (See Provisional Retraction below -- a physician weighs in to say this bit about the obese having lower blood glucose due to higher insulin levels isn't true.)

Why? Because his damn blood has no sugar in it and that's a universal signal to the hunger centers to tell him to eat again.

And he's not going to be doing any damn exercise in his low-blood sugar state.

And notice the really bad consequence here of high insulin levels combined with high duration of high insulin levels: His fat burning hormones, which would normally tell the fat cells to give up their stored energy between meals, are blocked from telling fat cells to do so due to the swamp of insulin in his blood.

His insulin starts high in a fasted state, gets very high after a meal, stays pretty damn high even between meals -- all the time blocking the fat-burning magic of insulin's opposite-function fat-burning hormones from doing what the body is supposed to do between meals, that is, go into a slightly ketogenic state where fat is being burned to produce the other sort of molecule that can be burned for energy, ketones.

If a fat person's insulin is always making his blood low in sugar, thus making him both tired and hungry, and his always-high insulin levels are always blocking his body from burning fat for non-glucose energy, how in the hell is a fat person ever supposed to lose weight?

A normal weight person does store fat away from time to time -- but his insulin is at fairly low levels, and falls to a low fasted state quickly, thus permitting him to frequently dip into his fat stores as needed. He may gain a pound or two here or there -- but he also has no particular problem losing that pound or two.

But for a fat person, the process of tapping into those fat stores is completely taken off-line by the ever-present ocean of insulin that is always in his blood. (And note that a fat person's fasted insulin levels can be even higher than a normal-weight person's post-meal levels!)

In a normal weight person, fat is put away into a closet. It is stored, but it can be accessed when needed.

In a fat person, fat is put into the closet, but that closet is then locked shut by chains and padlocks called "excess resting-state, always-present insulin," which forbids the body from opening that door and getting to that fat.

In a normal weight person, whose insulin is not dysregulated, his insulin fades and allows insulin-sensitive hormone to burn fat whenever he needs it. It's a two way street -- fat goes in, sure, but it comes out, too.

But in a fat person, that fat is now on a one-way journey only -- it can only be put into the closet, and never (or almost never) taken out again.

The high insulin levels he has now make it such that while fat is always being put into his fat cells, it is nearly impossible to ever access them to burn off for energy. Note this bitter vicious cycle aspect: the fatter you are, automatically, the higher insulin levels you'll produce; your fatness is the mechanism by which you will produce more fatness, and block you from burning fat.

Fat people have insulin resistance. Period. This is the Syndrome X, a complex of high blood pressure, obesity, diabetes, etc., scientists noted a long time ago, which is now called "metabolic syndrome."

To reduce weight, they have to eat foods that produce less of an insulin response, and maybe seriously deplete their blood of insulin -- by not eating at all for long periods of time -- to prod their cells into becoming sensitive to insulin again, so that they react to lower doses of the hormone.

This chart compares post-meal insulin levels in an overweight person versus a normal weight person, when either of those two have a High Carb (HC) or High Fat (HF) meal.

The top line is overweight eating carbs; the second is normal weight eating carbs; the third is overweight eating fat; the last is normal weight eating fat.

Note a couple of points: Insulin spikes in the obese and normal weight fairly high after high carb meals, though (of course) higher in the obese; and after high fat meals, while overweight people still react with higher insulin, notice the difference there is barely visible. The obese and normal-weight react kinda the same to high-fat meals.

The point of Dr. Fung's program is actually to cure diabetes 2 sufferers, but the plan can help increase insulin sensitivity for normally overweight or obese people or people who are sadly, let's say it plainly, pre- diabetic, or maybe pre-pre-diabetic.

Warning: Dr. Fung carefully monitors his diabetes 2 patients. Do not try to cure yourself of diabetes 2 with this plan except under strict medical supervision. Playing around with sugar and insulin while suffering from diabetes can kill you.

The idea is to kill the tolerance to insulin by greatly reducing the insulin present in the blood. The idea -- which I hope works, though I'm only on month seven of trying it, and it might take 1-2 years -- is to re-sensitize cells to insulin by always keeping to foods that cause a lower insulin response, and then having longer periods (fasted states) where there's no food at all coming in that could jack up insulin levels.

And just as someone who has grown tolerant to alcohol might, if he quits booze for a year, suddenly find that two drinks is enough to make him tipsy, the idea is that starving the cells of insulin might help them regain a normal-weight person's sensitivity to insulin, too.

I don't know if this works, obviously. I'm not a doctor. But Dr. Fung says his program is a success.

Anyway, I was going to talk about other issues but I seem to have used up all my allotted time on this one thing.

My own gains: two pounds down -- 168 -- bodyfat down quite a bit over a few weeks, two inches lost on my waist (which hadn't shed any inches for a while).

The one meal a day thing seems to be what I needed. Maybe my body had adapted to the 16/8 thing to the point where it just didn't consider it a metabolic stress enough to burn fat. So maybe it needed a shake-up.

It's not easy, but I'd also say it isn't particularly hard. Not after seven months on a 16-20 hour fast regime. Doesn't take much more to get it to 23/24 hours.

Right now though I'm hungry enough to eat a rotten pig's ass so I'm going to do that.

In the meantime: Tell me about your GAINZZZ.

Oh, and sure, let the people without dysregulated metabolisms tell me how they solved all the weight problems that they've never actually had, and why people who have this metabolic disorder should just do what people without metabolic disorders do to keep weight off (that is, nothing at all, letting your properly-functioning insulin metabolism keep you at ideal weight, all working smoothly in the background, while you do nothing in particular except say "eat less, move more, rinse, lather, repeat").

Note/Correction: I got most of this, at least this week (I've read the basics a lot before), from these very good videos I've previously recommended by What I've Learned, especially this one, and this one I recommended last week.

The hormone that tells fat cells to release triglycerides for processing into ketones (energy bodies) is "hormone-sensitive lipase," not "insulin-sensitive hormone," as I called it.

Actually, there are several hormones that tell fat cells to burn fat for fuel, such as epinephrine, cortisol,* testosterone, human growth hormone, grehlin, and glucagon, but almost all of them are antagonistic to insulin, or opposed by insulin. Broadly, one could describe them as "insulin sensitive hormones," but none are named that.

Sorry for the garbling. I've changed my botched language to specify "hormone-sensitive lipase" or "lipase and other fat-burning hormones" or "fat burning hormones" generally to get rid of the just-plain-wrong "insulin-sensitive hormone" term I mistakenly used.

* Cortisol is a hormone with a few effects. It's the "stress hormone," but it's also the alertness hormone. If you wake up pretty quickly in the morning, that's your body giving you a jolt of cortisol to stress it up (out of its hibernating state) and get you moving.

Apparently it has some fat-burning function. However, it also gets branded as a fat-hoarding hormone, in people with too much stress, or who don't get enough sleep and therefore have a lot of cortisol in their bodies all day long.

I don't know much about anything, and I certainly don't know at what point cortisol goes from being a useful wake-up hormone into a stress-monster fat-hoarding-because-winter-is-coming hormone.

Cortisol, like most of the other fat-burning hormones, is opposed by insulin. Cortisol promotes alertness, awakeness, stress, and fat-burning (in some situations, at least); insulin promotes lethargy, sleepiness (you get sleepy after a big Thanksgiving meal, right?) and fat-storage.

Provisional Retraction. Another GAINZZZ Correction. I don't know on this one either way, but a physician pops in to say that, while he agrees with most of the GAINZZZ post, he disagrees with my assertion that the high insulin response of an obese person sweeps too much glucose out of the blood and leads to feeling both tired and hungry. He says the obese have simultaneously a high fasted insulin level and a high fasted blood glucose level.

I don't know if he's right. I thought the feeling of being tired -- the famous "spike your blood sugar, then crash with lower blood sugar" -- was related to insulin level, and I thought I read people connecting that to higher insulin levels in the blood. Or maybe I just speculated myself that the two things were directly connected.

Maybe both points are true: High quickly-bioavailable carbs do cause the spike-and-crash effect, but they cause this in all people, and it's not true that people with high insulin levels have it worse. Maybe they just have it like anyone else.
He says he's a doctor, and I gotta admit my understanding here is based on a few pop-science books I only remember in broad outline, so let me provisionally retract this.

If the poster making this point, or any other doctor, would be so kind as to illuminate me on this point, I'd appreciate it.

Posted by: Ace at 05:29 PM

Comments

(Jump to bottom of comments)

1 I was told there would be no math.

Posted by: pep at February 17, 2017 05:32 PM (LAe3v)

2 I was told there would be no math.

Posted by: JT in KC at February 17, 2017 05:32 PM (FoSz+)

3 Nor graphs. I hate those things. Boy, did I pick the wrong profession.

Posted by: pep at February 17, 2017 05:32 PM (LAe3v)

4 Italics are open

Posted by: Curmudgeon at February 17, 2017 05:33 PM (ujg0T)

Posted by: Max Power at February 17, 2017 05:33 PM (q177U)

6 Posted by: JT in KC

Suck it, JT.

Posted by: pep at February 17, 2017 05:33 PM (LAe3v)

7 Did that work?

Posted by: Max Power at February 17, 2017 05:33 PM (q177U)

8 Good grief. Its like WebMD.

Posted by: IC at February 17, 2017 05:34 PM (a0IVu)

9 Oh yeah, is she a great big fat person?

Posted by: JT in KC at February 17, 2017 05:34 PM (FoSz+)

10 The italics are wonderful. Gives AoSHQ a sophisticated racy look.

Posted by: Kodos the Executioner at February 17, 2017 05:34 PM (J8/9G)

11 I'm sitting here eating pork skins and onion dip.

Posted by: Grump928(C) at February 17, 2017 05:34 PM (HBt+c)

12 One meal a day!

Posted by: Max Power at February 17, 2017 05:35 PM (q177U)

13 You won this battle pep, I will win the war.

Posted by: JT in KC at February 17, 2017 05:35 PM (FoSz+)

14

I'm going to use your new twitter face as part of my diet plan.

Posted by: Strelnikov at February 17, 2017 05:36 PM (fi5nC)

15 I just like to lift heavy things and then put them down.

Posted by: brak at February 17, 2017 05:36 PM (WekB6)

16 I was told there would be no Italicans.

Posted by: Iowa Bob at February 17, 2017 05:37 PM (tu3iY)

17 Math or no I'm going to go back and see it this was announced

Posted by: Skip at February 17, 2017 05:37 PM (HDU3V)

18 I started doing the one meal a day and I have gone down a notch on my belt in about 4 days. I can see a difference and all you have to do is drink water when your hungry.

I am seeing GAINZZZ.

Fuck, I am off to Italy where I will piss them all away.

Posted by: Waiting at February 17, 2017 05:37 PM (uz/Pv)

19 Lord now I'm in an insulin coma.

Posted by: Sebastian Melmoth at February 17, 2017 05:37 PM (34alA)

20 So, did Ace like the movie?

Posted by: Iowa Bob at February 17, 2017 05:38 PM (tu3iY)

21 Q: How does the pancreas lace up it shoes?

A: It uses the eyelets of Langerhans.

Posted by: Muldoon at February 17, 2017 05:38 PM (wPiJc)

22 I understand fasting and weightlifting give you loose shit all over your front page.

Posted by: andycanuck at February 17, 2017 05:38 PM (nlbfN)

23 Right now though I'm hungry enough to eat a rotten pig's ass so I'm going to do that.

********

So basically your doin' Twitter man's grl.

Posted by: Strelnikov at February 17, 2017 05:38 PM (fi5nC)

24 The main page as well, ace?
Well done.
Take the weekend off.

Posted by: Chi at February 17, 2017 05:39 PM (rUhXo)

25 I tune out for a half hour and the whole fucking place goes Italian.

Posted by: Herr Morgenholz at February 17, 2017 05:39 PM (EUMr7)

26 you are

Posted by: Strelnikov at February 17, 2017 05:39 PM (fi5nC)

27 *raises hand*

Can we still drink butter-coffee?

Posted by: Mortimer, Finish Her! at February 17, 2017 05:39 PM (KgpWR)

28
Where's Pearl Bailey?

Posted by: J.J. Sefton at February 17, 2017 05:40 PM (mbhDw)

29 Seriously, this sounds like a plausible hypothesis for weight gain (and loss). Humans didn't evolve in an environment with nearly unlimited food, in particular unlimited sugar and other carbs. Not surprising that eating large quantities of carbs would cause things to go wonky.

Posted by: Iowa Bob at February 17, 2017 05:41 PM (tu3iY)

30 If you have trouble remembering, think of insulin as the "insulating hormone"- it packs the sugar into the inside of cells in the form of glycogen like packing insulation into your attic. Something, something, mumble....

Posted by: Muldoon at February 17, 2017 05:41 PM (wPiJc)

31 One of the best things you can do is get on a healthy diet. It's lost popularity, but the Zone diet is amazing and easy to do. It's really more of a lifestyle. I feel great when I stick w this. Along those lines the DASH ( dietary approach to stopping hypertension) diet is recommended to hypertensives and is a great choice too. I enjoy salt but the salt in processsed is astoundingly high. And that's just not going to McDonald's, that is buying preprepared meals at Trader Joe's or your local grocery store. I love this philosophy to eating me it's very similar to zone. Once you try it, you'll be horrified to try processed foods are foods and restaurant. Everything taste way way way too salty to me now.

Posted by: keena at February 17, 2017 05:41 PM (/lGcY)

32 I really want to fast for a full day once a week, but hard to find a good day to do that.

Posted by: Max Power at February 17, 2017 05:42 PM (q177U)

33 Ace, you ought to do a podcast with Rowdy Gainzzz as the guest.

Posted by: Muldoon at February 17, 2017 05:43 PM (wPiJc)

34 I sit on my ass and eat anything I can reach and never gain weight.

I don't know what is wrong with the rest of you fuckers.

Posted by: ghbucky at February 17, 2017 05:43 PM (D2q91)

35 I am on a good regiment of supplements, but my workout is pedestrian. Pull ups on a suspension trainer, and dumbbell front-squats four days a week.

It's vaguely disappointing process, but my weight is up while my waist stays the same circumference. ~200 lb and 34". So, gainzzz.

Posted by: BourbonChicken at February 17, 2017 05:43 PM (VdICR)

36 The Tennis Club / athletic center I belong to is a double edged sword . They have a great weight room but more importantly a heavy bag and speed bag that I do my main work out. I also play tennis 3 to 4 times a week. This is all cancelled out though by their fairly inexpensive all day buffet of quality grub. As a quote from my namesake nic, the only thing I can't resist is temptation.

Posted by: Sebastian Melmoth at February 17, 2017 05:44 PM (34alA)

37 Thanks Ace. Is this mostly Taubes' stuff?

Posted by: Byzantine_General at February 17, 2017 05:44 PM (y+GEM)

38 Surely you aren't telling us that some kind of congenital dysregulated metabolism is to blame for widespread American obesity?

Type II diabetes is a result of obesity, not a cause of obesity.

Posted by: Yoshi, Aggrieved Victim of the White Man at February 17, 2017 05:45 PM (jKS5F)

39 Right now though I'm hungry enough to eat a rotten pig's ass so I'm going to do that.

Dammit, get away from me!

Posted by: Chuckie Schumer at February 17, 2017 05:45 PM (DMUuz)

40 how are you supposed to measure your waist anyway? I can take it three times in a row and get different resutls each time

Posted by: ghbucky at February 17, 2017 05:45 PM (D2q91)

41 28
Where's Pearl Bailey?
Posted by: J.J. Sefton
-------------

I think you may be the first Moron in history to wonder that.
I'll take Bailey Quarters for a thousand, Alex.

Posted by: Chi at February 17, 2017 05:46 PM (rUhXo)

42 Good info, Ace. Thanks.

I've been feeling pretty darn good in IF, which is why I stick with it. The last hour before lunch is tough. I guzzle a lot of water. But work can also distract me from hunger, so I try to stagger things so I'm really busy from 10am on.

Still losing about a pound a month with no downside. I'm going to try the 20 hour fast, as I've stumbled into that already once or twice due to life issues. It wasn't too bad.

I have found I want to eat less, which is its own kind of miracle.

Now if I can just find something that makes me crave exercise like I did when I was bodybuilding...

Posted by: Mark Andrew Edwards at February 17, 2017 05:46 PM (sh70B)

43 I use the treadmill to stay otter sleek.

Posted by: Harry Reid at February 17, 2017 05:46 PM (bc2Lc)

44 31
One of the best things you can do is get on a healthy diet.

Posted by: keena at February 17, 2017 05:41 PM (/lGcY)
By who's definition of healthy? 40 or 50 years of following the government definition of healthy eating has resulted in the present obesity epidemic. A low-carb, high fat diet is pretty much the opposite of what the nutritional "experts" have recommended, but for many people (myself included) is the only thing that works for long-term weight loss.

Posted by: Iowa Bob at February 17, 2017 05:46 PM (tu3iY)

45 Read the Hungry Brain. "Insuling resistance" is a rabbit hole that can suck you in but it ultimately fails as an explanation. It's all in the brain, man. Reduce the palatibility of your food (eat stuff that doesn't taste great - I'm having peas and cottage cheese for dinner) and your "set point" will go down. Dieting is like pushing a soccer ball under water, it will ultimately bounce back up.

Posted by: bjrubbs at February 17, 2017 05:47 PM (zwwMT)

46 willowed.

At the risk of sounding like one of those people who

argues about everything, (IOW a typical poster here), I couldn't stand

the man. He sounded scripted and banal and just irritated the hell out

of me.

Posted by: pep at February 17, 2017 05:39 PM (LAe3v)

No no, that was Howard Cosel.

http://tinyurl.com/ka3bgpl

Posted by: Sam at February 17, 2017 05:47 PM (s3+kQ)

47 >>>*raises hand*

Can we still drink butter-coffee?

...

yeah of course. fat has almost no impact on insulin.

I've been experimenting with the "paleo bulletproof coffee," where you add an egg yolk into the coffee. Tastes good. Extra salmonella!

But the egg yolk does have 2.5 g of protein which CAN be metabolized and break the fast. I don't know if such a small bit of protein actually does break the fast.

Doesn't seem to. but I don't know.

It is surprisingly good though.

Posted by: ace at February 17, 2017 05:47 PM (8rNrN)

48 Ace,

This was a nice explanation of metabolism.

You should follow this up with some explanation of the metabolic difference between Ommentum fat (belly fat) and skeletal fat, and the role that the Ommentum fat plays in metabolic disease.

Posted by: Artesian at February 17, 2017 05:47 PM (KuQqG)

49 HFCS is to blame!

Posted by: Muldoon at February 17, 2017 05:48 PM (wPiJc)

50 Paolo knows ancient and forbidden practices that draw deeply on the body's reserve of fat.

Posted by: Paolo at February 17, 2017 05:48 PM (HBt+c)

51 I'm not saying that fasting doesn't work, I'm saying that your body will fight weight loss (it will think it's in starvation mode) as long as the food you eat tastes great and is less filling.

Posted by: bjrubbs at February 17, 2017 05:48 PM (zwwMT)

52 Mmm....belly fat.

Posted by: eleven at February 17, 2017 05:48 PM (qUNWi)

53 Last paragraph, awesome.

Posted by: Grandmalcaesar at February 17, 2017 05:48 PM (8CjMe)

54 Save the date: March 14th is Save A Spider Day.

Posted by: J. Random Moron at February 17, 2017 05:48 PM (DMUuz)

Posted by: Mark Andrew Edwards at February 17, 2017 05:49 PM (sh70B)

56 Thanks for the gainzz thread, coach. It's a good reminder of my good intentions.

I'm on the verge of joining the gym down the street. Last time I was in really good shape it was because there was an on site gym at my office and I'd get up at 0500 and workout before work every day.

I don't have so much of a structured routine these days, so I have to find a way to trick my body into "it's N o'clock, you should be in the gym".

Posted by: Bandersnatch, gentleman cad at February 17, 2017 05:49 PM (mgbwf)

57 good lecture

Posted by: concrete girl at February 17, 2017 05:49 PM (lh00p)

58 Huh. That's what the brackets do, huh? Good to know.

Posted by: Mark Andrew Edwards at February 17, 2017 05:49 PM (sh70B)

59
I'd just like to mention my Bar.

I love my bar. It's a legit barbell for powerlifting. A finely machined instrument for Gainzz.

It's an Ohio Power Bar made by Rogue.
The KNURL on this bar is what they classify as "Aggressive," heheh. That means the knurled area on this bar isn't for Sissy Hands.

http://www.roguefitness.com/rogue-ohio-power-bar

Posted by: Soothsayer 45 at February 17, 2017 05:49 PM (s7qwY)

60 Where does wine fit into all this?

One bottle a day or two?

Posted by: Sam at February 17, 2017 05:50 PM (s3+kQ)

61 Hey JT, don't have my calander at hand but I think May 6 from 9-12 is the next time we're over your way.

Posted by: teej at February 17, 2017 05:50 PM (mzTVj)

62 Man this thread is just full of WORDZZZ.

Posted by: Effortless Kitesurfer at February 17, 2017 05:50 PM (VFhMt)

63
Before any of you buy a cheap barbell from Walmart or Sears, ask me.

Posted by: Soothsayer 45 at February 17, 2017 05:50 PM (s7qwY)

64 50
Paolo knows ancient and forbidden practices that draw deeply on the body's reserve of fat.

Posted by: Paolo at February 17, 2017 05:48 PM (HBt+c)

Translation=Paolo sucks dicks.

Posted by: Sam at February 17, 2017 05:51 PM (s3+kQ)

65 First 480 paragraphs, also awesome

Posted by: Grandmalcaesar at February 17, 2017 05:51 PM (8CjMe)

66 The IF only seems to be effect and tolerable for me if I'm already in at least moderate ketosis. Otherwise I'm too hungry.

Posted by: Grump928(C) at February 17, 2017 05:51 PM (HBt+c)

67 >>>ead the Hungry Brain. "Insuling resistance" is a rabbit hole that can suck you in but it ultimately fails as an explanation. It's all in the brain, man. Reduce the palatibility of your food (eat stuff that doesn't taste great - I'm having peas and cottage cheese for dinner) and your "set point" will go down. Dieting is like pushing a soccer ball under water, it will ultimately bounce back up.

well I've lost six inches of my waist and 40 pounds (while gaining muscle, thus, i've lost more fat pounds than that)

lost at least 10% bodyfat. Maybe 12%.

imma just gonna say that while other things may work, this seems to be working.

for me anyway

imma also gonna speculate that if Dr. Fung can cure diabetes 2, this plan will probably tame the insulin dysregulation in people with the easier-to-manage problem of obesity

Posted by: ace at February 17, 2017 05:51 PM (8rNrN)

68 Okay. Now let's look at a person with a disturbed or dysfunctional or "dysregulated" metatolism:

This is the story of my life.

disturbed, dysfunction, and abused.

That's why I love hanging out with youse guys. We're like brothers or something.

Posted by: Wendel Willard at February 17, 2017 05:51 PM (kxXIH)

69 Aww dang it.
Gotta go.
And I just sat down.

Posted by: teej at February 17, 2017 05:52 PM (mzTVj)

70 Soothsayer

is it a good story?

Posted by: ghbucky at February 17, 2017 05:52 PM (D2q91)

71 So in the previous thread I read that Kip Winger and Sabastian Bach are considering running for congress?

Posted by: Crusader at February 17, 2017 05:52 PM (ewSN2)

72 Shit, are we going to be tested on this?

Posted by: Berserker- Dragonheads Division at February 17, 2017 05:52 PM (aMlLZ)

73 >>> I'm not saying that fasting doesn't work, I'm saying that your body will fight weight loss (it will think it's in starvation mode) as long as the food you eat tastes great and is less filling.

they've done tests. the body doesn't go into the much-discussed "starvation mode" until 72 hours or so.

In fact, in short fasts (24 hours or less), metabolism INCREASES, probably an evolutionary thing giving a hungry human additional energy to scour for food

Posted by: ace at February 17, 2017 05:53 PM (8rNrN)

74 >>>Right now though I'm hungry enough to eat a rotten pig's ass so I'm going to do that.<<<

CNN tells me that a menage a trois with Lena and Amy will yield a you a 25lb loss of body fat and your breath will whisper a hint of pork rinds for at least two weeks.

Posted by: Fritz at February 17, 2017 05:54 PM (yIZoc)

75 Soothsayer 45

I will also sing the praises of an olympic weightlifting bar. Great full body workouts even with just the 45 pounder by itself.

A kettlebell is also nice for you 4 Hour Body fans.

Posted by: Mark Andrew Edwards at February 17, 2017 05:54 PM (sh70B)

76 Anyone tried the special Mongolian horse meat yet?

Posted by: 'Shep' Childs at February 17, 2017 05:54 PM (DMUuz)

77 Just as an alcoholic develops a tolerance to alcohol,

Everybody has tolerance, alcoholism just moves it 3-5 times higher.
or
Pancreas is dead so it can't get any worse but liver is still ok so keep drinking.

Posted by: DaveA at February 17, 2017 05:54 PM (8J/Te)

78 Congrats on the weight loss Ace, seriously. The key is keeping it off. As long as your body is fighting the weight loss, it's going to be hard to maintain the GAINZZZZZZZZZZZ enthusiasm.

Posted by: bjrubbs at February 17, 2017 05:55 PM (zwwMT)

79
is it a good story?

Nothing like that. Just anecdotal advice.

Posted by: Soothsayer 45 at February 17, 2017 05:55 PM (s7qwY)

80 Anyone tried the special Mongolian horse meat yet?

Probably. Maybe.

Posted by: eleven at February 17, 2017 05:55 PM (qUNWi)

81 71 So in the previous thread I read that Kip Winger and Sabastian Bach are considering running for congress?
Posted by: Crusader at February 17, 2017 05:52 PM (ewSN2)

Bach is actually a funny guy and I believe somewhat conservative.

Posted by: Sebastian Melmoth at February 17, 2017 05:55 PM (34alA)

82 Some progress this week. After IFing every day but one or two for 16-20 hours since Jan 1, I lost practically nothing (2 or 3 lbs). So this week

1) did 20-22 hour fasts (OMAD).
2) really stuck to HFLC.
3) Cut out ALCOHOL.

Seemed to help. Lost about 3.5 lbs.

Posted by: chris not rock at February 17, 2017 05:56 PM (WO0/g)

83 I got back on my "no food after 3 p.m." diet as a way to combat late night acid reflux and I've lost 10 pounds without trying. I feel even better if lunch is my last meal.

Ace, is drinking bone broth considered breaking the fast? I've been drinking green tea to deal with hunger pangs but it lacks substance.

Posted by: All Hail Eris, She-Wolf of the 'Ettes 'Ettes at February 17, 2017 05:56 PM (EnKk6)

84 I lost 30 pounds just by cutting out sugar in coffee. I guess at 3-4 cups a day it was too much sugar. I was always thin and couldn't figure out how I was putting on weight over time, then I realized I upped my coffee intake, so once I got rid of the sugar things went back to normal.

Posted by: Berserker- Dragonheads Division at February 17, 2017 05:57 PM (aMlLZ)

85 Can anyone point to a good weight workout program for 'ettes? I currently do about 20 minutes of stretching with some light deadlifts and barbells, but want someone more on the strength side.

Posted by: chicagolurker at February 17, 2017 05:57 PM (X4zfU)

86 2. These get broken down and enter the blood as glucose. (Protein would
take longer to enter as glucose, but it can and does happen, to a lesser
extent).
====

This is not possible.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protein

Posted by: Off the reservation at February 17, 2017 05:58 PM (uqnYW)

87 great post ace

i fell off the low carb wagon and asm struggling to get back on

right now my skin is breaking out too which is a sure sign my bloid sugar is out of whack

Posted by: @votermom @vm at February 17, 2017 05:58 PM (Om16U)

88 Here's a good test of the insulin hypothesis: put fat people in a room. Give them one thing to drink - chocolate, sugary liquid, like Nutragena. They are guaranteed to lose weight because the appetite for that sugary drink is satiated very quickly. Its not the sugar or carbs, it's teh calories.

Posted by: bjrubbs at February 17, 2017 05:58 PM (zwwMT)

89 On the diet subject, there might be a few folks looking to gain weight and muscle and who aren't old farts like myself.

To them I say: GOMAD.

Gallon
Of
Milk
A
Day.

It does work in conjunction with weight training. Not for the lactose intolerant though organic whole milk may be ok for borderline lactase-deficient folks.

Posted by: Mark Andrew Edwards at February 17, 2017 05:58 PM (sh70B)

90 Also have sex a lot.

I think that's just common sense, though.

Posted by: Mark Andrew Edwards at February 17, 2017 05:58 PM (sh70B)

91 Rotten pig ass would be a rotten ham if you're going by pork cuts.

Posted by: Sebastian Melmoth at February 17, 2017 05:59 PM (34alA)

92
"all diets work - more or less"

Posted by: Mortimer, Finish Her! at February 17, 2017 05:59 PM (KgpWR)

93 CNN tells me that a menage a trois with Lena and Amy will yield a you a 25lb loss of body fat and your breath will whisper a hint of pork rinds for at least two weeks.

Posted by: Fritz at February 17, 2017 05:54 PM (yIZoc)

well figure just the thought of an event like that would have you running fast enough to leave a vapor trail for 100 miles or so, so yeah weight loss is a given.

Posted by: Berserker- Dragonheads Division at February 17, 2017 05:59 PM (aMlLZ)

94 First you get a a million dollars.

http://tinyurl.com/m59t7bv

Posted by: Sam at February 17, 2017 06:00 PM (s3+kQ)

95 Where's Kim Guilfoyle?

Lucy Lipgloss is getting on my nerves.

Posted by: Mortimer, Finish Her! at February 17, 2017 06:01 PM (KgpWR)

96 Bach is actually a funny guy and I believe somewhat conservative.

Posted by: Sebastian Melmoth at February 17, 2017 05:55 PM (34alA)

Bach is a riot. I hung with him a few times. He is what you see.

Posted by: Berserker- Dragonheads Division at February 17, 2017 06:01 PM (aMlLZ)

97 >>>
Ace, is drinking bone broth considered breaking the fast? I've been drinking green tea to deal with hunger pangs but it lacks substance.

eh i don't know. usually a cup has 10 g of protein. Sounds like enough to break the fast a bit.

it depnds on what kind of fast you're doing. If you're doing a long fast, then you pretty much have to have SOME small amount of calories (500 a day, I think) on days when you're supposedly "not eating anything."

People doing the eat one day, no food the next day plan (alternate day fasting) allow themselves two meals of 250 cals each on their "no eating day," which usually gets rounded up to 600.

I mean, in that kind of plan, then obviously, have bone broth.

If doing the 16-8 or 20-4 i guess I would have the bone broth to extend t he "fast" even tho it's technically cheating -- I'd just put that off for as long as I could. Like, mabye the fat coffee in the a.m., then the broth around 1pm to get you through the next few hours. You'd still have a nice long fast, with a very short, minor breaking, and then some more fasting.

but I don't know. I usually do the all-in-one-go no-food-except-the-fat-coffee.

Posted by: ace at February 17, 2017 06:01 PM (8rNrN)

98 Insulin dysfunctional people sound...angry.

*hides*

Posted by: Mathers at February 17, 2017 06:02 PM (3myMJ)

99 @chicagolurker

Try kettlebell swings, ala Tim Ferris.

Bodybuilding dot com is also a good place to start:
http://www.bodybuilding.com/content/womens-strength-training-guide.html

Posted by: Mark Andrew Edwards at February 17, 2017 06:02 PM (sh70B)

100 FISH OIL WILL MAKE YOU A GOD AMONG MEN.

A GOD!

Posted by: Mortimer, Finish Her! at February 17, 2017 06:03 PM (KgpWR)

101 is that red and blue graph about that fat chick that screws around on her lame boyfriend over there in England? Of so it should be labelled 'obese' and 'stupid'.

Posted by: DanMan at February 17, 2017 06:03 PM (XTiHL)

102 Too many carbs caused the Dark Ages.

Posted by: Ben Had at February 17, 2017 06:03 PM (WkTN2)

103 Ace, is drinking bone broth considered breaking the fast? I've been drinking green tea to deal with hunger pangs but it lacks substance.
Posted by: All Hail Eris, She-Wolf of the 'Ettes 'Ettes at February 17, 2017 05:56 PM (EnKk6)

You could try the runway model diet: heroin, cigarettes and Kleenex.

Posted by: Insomniac at February 17, 2017 06:04 PM (0mRoj)

104

drunk and chewing on a rotten pig's ass is no way to go through life, son.

Posted by: imp at February 17, 2017 06:05 PM (g1NWs)

105 @86 - Yes, it can, see gluconeogenesis.

https://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Principles_of_Biochemistry/Gluconeogenesis_and_Glycogenesis

Posted by: Laughing in Texas at February 17, 2017 06:05 PM (xQfPr)

106 yeah just don't do the diet one of my friends did. He was really heavy, and I hadn't seen him for months and when I saw him he was totally thin.

Wow you look good dude what have you been doing?

I been doing uh...crank.

sigh

Posted by: Berserker- Dragonheads Division at February 17, 2017 06:07 PM (aMlLZ)

107 If you have trouble remembering,
think of insulin
as the "insulating hormone"
it packs the sugar
into the inside of cells in the form of glycogen
like packing insulation into your attic.

anti-Muldoon

Posted by: DanMan at February 17, 2017 06:08 PM (XTiHL)

108 Stop shoving crap in your pie-hole, get off your butt and move.

Problem solved.

Posted by: The Hot Gates at February 17, 2017 06:08 PM (k3uSs)

109 105

"enter the bloodstream" ??

Posted by: Off the reservation at February 17, 2017 06:08 PM (uqnYW)

110 You could try the runway model diet: heroin, cigarettes and Kleenex.

Posted by: Insomniac at February 17, 2017 06:04 PM (0mRoj)

++++

PLus cotton balls. I read somewhere that is one of the tricks. They eat cotton balls to fool their stomach into thinking they ate something.

Posted by: Anon Y. Mous at February 17, 2017 06:08 PM (R+30W)

111 I started exercising a week ago. I'm walking for 60-90 minutes outside in the morning or at midday. I'm lifting weights in the evening. Then eat my one meal. I drink Rons of water and tons of water at night. This is key. The more waiter I drink the more I can tell in the morning that I'm shredding fat daily. The morning walk and evening weights keep me in a constant state of ketosis. The strips are always purple.

Diet is 90% of what is responsible for weight loss and muscle gain. Always knew it was important but because I was in my 20's and early 30's I did not know just HOW important it is.

One meal a day for a few months seems to be a great way to learn will power and self control.

Thanks again Ace and Horde. Off to hit the weights.

Posted by: Widespread Pepe at February 17, 2017 06:09 PM (kBiSH)

112 106 yeah just don't do the diet one of my friends did. He was really heavy, and I hadn't seen him for months and when I saw him he was totally thin.

Wow you look good dude what have you been doing?

I been doing uh...crank.

sigh
Posted by: Berserker- Dragonheads Division at February 17, 2017 06:07 PM (aMlLZ)

Oh sweet Jesus. Had his teeth gone to shit yet?

Posted by: Insomniac at February 17, 2017 06:09 PM (0mRoj)

113 You could lose weight eating nothign but potatoes, as long as you ate plain, baked potatoes for breakfast, lunch, and dinner. Calories in/calories out is still 98% of weight loss. If you want to make people gain weight, put them on a cruise ship with a buffet. They will have a little meat, some eggs, some cake, some veggies, - and all that variety will add up to a 1200 calorie meal. Give them all the potatoes they can eat and they might have trouble eating 300 calories. It's the taste and the calories that cause weight gain, not carbs.

Posted by: bjrubbs at February 17, 2017 06:09 PM (zwwMT)

114 us insulin resistant ppl are bred to survuve famines

Posted by: @votermom @vm at February 17, 2017 06:10 PM (Om16U)

115 someone recommended helgromites may be useful in dieting.

Posted by: yankeefifth at February 17, 2017 06:10 PM (cPsPa)

116 Berserker- I used to add coffee to my sugar and then one day just stopped. My 18 hour work load decreased to 16 and that was enough to do it for me.

Posted by: Ben Had at February 17, 2017 06:11 PM (WkTN2)

117 I got back on my "no food after 3 p.m." diet as a way to combat late night acid reflux and I've lost 10 pounds without trying. I feel even better if lunch is my last meal.

Ace, is drinking bone broth considered breaking the fast? I've been drinking green tea to deal with hunger pangs but it lacks substance.
Posted by: All Hail Eris, She-Wolf of the 'Ettes 'Ettes at February 17, 2017 05:56 PM (EnKk6)

Remember Charlene Tilton ("Lucy") on Dallas? She always had a tendency toward chub. And the only thing she claimed would stop it was to stop eating at 3 p.m. until the next day. She may have come off as a conniving bimbo, but she was ahead of her time.

Besides green tea, remember the ever-popular apple-cider vinegar with the mother in a glass of water, a tablespoon or two.

That really seems to quell the appetite.

Posted by: SandyCheeks at February 17, 2017 06:11 PM (joFoi)

118 >>>I started exercising a week ago. I'm walking for 60-90 minutes outside in the morning or at midday. I'm lifting weights in the evening. Then eat my one meal. I drink Rons of water and tons of water at night. This is key. The more waiter I drink the more I can tell in the morning that I'm shredding fat daily. The morning walk and evening weights keep me in a constant state of ketosis. The strips are always purple.

i'm trying to drink water, which really should be considered the most important "supplement," but it's surprisingly hard to do.

i meant to write about that but, well, you saw what happened.

i wanted to write about water and sleep. but, whatever, stuck on the one thing.

since water is necessary ingredient in nearly all metabolism, being dehydrated is going to slow any fat burning or muscle-building.

Posted by: ace at February 17, 2017 06:11 PM (8rNrN)

119 I'm so thrilled that Ace introduced the IF concept to me via this GAINZ thread. Its pretty easy for me to limit when I eat vs. trying to limit what or how much I ate. On traditional diets I mentally struggled to get into the regimented eating mode. So far with the IF, even if I go on a trip or something which interrupts it, it is easy to get back on plan.

I'm still getting gradual weight and fat loss with a barely there exercise program.

Posted by: PaleRider at February 17, 2017 06:12 PM (dkExz)

120 Oh sweet Jesus. Had his teeth gone to shit yet?

Posted by: Insomniac at February 17, 2017 06:09 PM (0mRoj)

I don't think so, not bad anyway. But he was one of the poor bastards that went to the dentist and ended up with bacteria fucking up his heart valve, which needed a replacement. He did learn his lesson.

Posted by: Berserker- Dragonheads Division at February 17, 2017 06:12 PM (aMlLZ)

121 Yeah, I think that if you exercise regularly, for a few years, you can modify your skeletal muscle/hepatic/adipocyte/hypothalamic relationships, and basically move from one curve to the other. Genetics helps, but isn't everything.

More than that, I doubt any physiologist on the planet can say with any assurance.

Posted by: Alcoholic Asshole Shut In at February 17, 2017 06:12 PM (CPk08)

122 >>>Remember Charlene Tilton ("Lucy") on Dallas? She always had a tendency toward chub. And the only thing she claimed would stop it was to stop eating at 3 p.m. until the next day. She may have come off as a conniving bimbo, but she was ahead of her time.

they say 3pm is the perfect time for the last meal because it's... i don't know. Insulin production naturally falls off afterwards? Something? Anyway, you wind up with lower insulin when you stop eating at 3.

I don't think I can do that b/c i work out at night.

Posted by: ace at February 17, 2017 06:12 PM (8rNrN)

123 According to Dr. Fung, you can have bone broth to stave off hunger.

Posted by: Abby Normal at February 17, 2017 06:13 PM (cQO95)

124 yeah if you drink as much water as you should you are off to the restroom all day or up all night.

sleep is the most important thing for losing weight, maybe.

Posted by: yankeefifth at February 17, 2017 06:13 PM (cPsPa)

125 Posted by: Laughing in Texas at February 17, 2017 06:05 PM (xQfPr)

In context of the post, "enter the bloodstream" implies "from the digestive tract". Both of your processes happen in the liver.

Proteins enter the blood from the digestive tract as amino acids.

These processes are only mentioned in your reference as *therapy* for diabets, as far as I can tell.

Posted by: Off the reservation at February 17, 2017 06:14 PM (uqnYW)

126 oh, when you lose fat, you unleash the toxins that have been stored within the fat, and water is needed to help clear those out.

and you need water for that. or else you'll get headaches as your body tries to detoxify itself without the water it needs to do so.

Posted by: ace at February 17, 2017 06:14 PM (8rNrN)

127 >>>PLus cotton balls. I read somewhere that is one of the tricks. They eat
cotton balls to fool their stomach into thinking they ate something.<<<

Holy crap. I'd rather eat rancid chicken and suffer the E. coli diet. A blocked colon is not something a 29yr old needs to have unexpectedly.

Posted by: Fritz at February 17, 2017 06:16 PM (yIZoc)

128 so how do beer and cigarettes fit in your model and theory?

...And (a follow up question, if you will) can you drink as much beer as you want in your off-fast period?

Posted by: Harry Paratestes at February 17, 2017 06:16 PM (wmaTe)

129 OK I won't post on this again. This is a good podcast from a guy who has studied this as a Phd for the last 15 years and he basically says that insulin resistance is pop science that none of the obesity researchers believe.

http://robbwolf.com/2017/02/07/episode-354-stephan-guyenet-phd-the-hungry-brain/

Posted by: bjrubbs at February 17, 2017 06:16 PM (zwwMT)

130 120 Oh sweet Jesus. Had his teeth gone to shit yet?

Posted by: Insomniac at February 17, 2017 06:09 PM (0mRoj)

I don't think so, not bad anyway. But he was one of the poor bastards that went to the dentist and ended up with bacteria fucking up his heart valve, which needed a replacement. He did learn his lesson.
Posted by: Berserker- Dragonheads Division at February 17, 2017 06:12 PM (aMlLZ)

Good thing he did. Crank plus heart damage seems like a quick recipe for death.

Posted by: Insomniac at February 17, 2017 06:18 PM (0mRoj)

131 The idea is to kill the tolerance to insulin by greatly reducing the insulin present in the blood.

Makes sense. The question is, like the alcoholic who stops drinking dramatically without stopping, can he/she/random Target urinator just drink a 'little bit' without full blown relapse?

Self discipline is going to be required just as much when goal is achieved as during process.

Like you say, some people are lucky. I'm fortunate, never more than one single week and a little effort from 'perfect' weight for me. Two and a half pounds per inch of height.

Posted by: E Depluribus Juan at February 17, 2017 06:19 PM (ZFUt7)

132 I will say periodic fasting, on Ace's suggestion, enthusiasm, and my own looksee, has radically reduced my weight. It is the lowest right now that it has been in 6 years. I've conquered the last belt hole and not my pants are in danger of slipping off. I've got a long way to go. But thanks to this I've graduated from Obese (With Morbitity) to Obese, to Overweight and my BP meds need to be cut.

Posted by: Michael C Keehn at February 17, 2017 06:19 PM (6rfWc)

133 "And just as someone who has grown tolerant to alcohol might, if he quits booze for a year, suddenly find that two drinks is enough to make him tipsy, the idea is that starving the cells of insulin might help them regain a normal-weight person's sensitivity to insulin, too.

I don't know if this works, obviously. I'm not a doctor. But Dr. Fung says his program is a success."

Yes, this works.

My blood sugar was diabetic. I exercised and ate better, it became lower, but still barely in diabetic.

Went on HFLC, now bloow sugar is within normal range - and I stopped exercising, too.

The Bad: cholesterol is now 189.

Posted by: Harun at February 17, 2017 06:19 PM (UBBWX)

134 I just got bigger pants.

Posted by: Farmer Bob at February 17, 2017 06:20 PM (sqpGi)

135 >>>123 According to Dr. Fung, you can have bone broth to stave off hunger.

right but he's frequently talking about alternate day fasting, which isn't what I do.

Alternate day fasting is one day eat, next day don't, one day eat, next day don't. Some do a the 5/2 plan, five days eating, 2 days not eating. That's by days, per week.

On the "not eating" days, you actually can eat a little bit. A tiny little bit.

the thing most people do (I think) is daily fasting, where you never actually go a full day without food, but you limit the window of eating. the 16/8 plan, the 20/4 plan. This is by hours, per day.

anyway I know eating a tiny bit really isn't going to seriously break the fast (it will just put it on pause, at most), so it's always "okay," I just don't know if it's ideal.

Another issue I've seen talked about is that while eating during the fast might not knock you out of ketosis, it could interrupt the very nice process of autophagy, where your cells start eating up damaged cells and clear your body out of broke-down cells in exchange for new ones without any genetic damage.

I saw someone saying (regarding whether or not the "Egg Fat Coffee" would break a fast) no, you won't stop ketosis, but yes, you will interrupt or stop autophagy.

I don't know about that. I only know autophagy as a keyword.

Posted by: ace at February 17, 2017 06:20 PM (8rNrN)

136 Guyenet is making it up out of his hindquarters like he has been for the past decade. Fung has 100s of success stories with patients, half the horde is doing HFLC and IF and seeing gainzzz.

You're wrong, CICO is wrong, Guyenet's wrong, give it up already.

Posted by: leoncaruthers at February 17, 2017 06:20 PM (x6FFk)

137 After making bone broth once...if I'm going trash my entire kitchen, I'm going to need a bigger pay off.

Posted by: JT in KC at February 17, 2017 06:20 PM (FoSz+)

138 So I'm just finishing week two of a one day a week fast, (about 18/19 hours); going to try and move it up to two times a week.

Kitchen Accomplice makes a great bone broth in a squeezy bottle, and the taste is good; it's not too bone-y. I got it at Safeway, I think it is about $10 for a bottle of 14 servings; prefer the bottle to the packets I tried before Christmas because I can make the broth a little richer. A little cracked pepper and it's really satisfying.

I have read that if you fast too much, your body burns whatever fat it can find, including that around the heart which can weaken it, (not sure if this is true, but sounds plausible), but if you exercise, you keep your heart strong. Heart disease runs in my family so regardless, I need to work on my heart. My biggest problem is I get bored on a treadmill or stairmaster, and I don't have a lot of time. I've started going back to yoga, which is a start, but wish I had something I really LOVED to do. I like walking outside, but live on an enormous hill and again, there's that time thing to make it really effective.

The man and I decided to cut out alcohol during the week, and we haven't had any since Sunday night and he's noticed a huge change in his mood and concentration. I've had to do this before for some meds I was on, and it seemed that I lost a little but hit a plateau; I hope that combining it with some exercise and IF, I can break through.

Best of luck to everyone on their GAINZZZZZZ, and thanks, Ace!

Posted by: atomicplaygirl (Gab: atomicplaygirl) at February 17, 2017 06:21 PM (Gim9y)

139 PLus cotton balls. I read somewhere that is one of the tricks. They eat cotton balls to fool their stomach into thinking they ate something.

Posted by: Anon Y. Mous at February 17, 2017 06:08 PM (R+30W)

The medical term for that dietary maneuver is "retarded". I mean, it is hard to be a runway model with a big laparotomy scar.

Posted by: Alcoholic Asshole Shut In at February 17, 2017 06:23 PM (CPk08)

140 >>>http://robbwolf.com/2017/02/07/episode-354-stephan-guyenet-phd-the-hungry-brain/

well, all I can tell you is that Dr. Fung is a diabetologist and treats diabetes 2 patients this way, and says he cures them.

My own doctor advises this as well. I picked him because I was seeing another doctor and heard him in the next room giving a patient a talk about what sounded suspiciously like the paleo plan and I decided he'd be my guy.

Posted by: ace at February 17, 2017 06:23 PM (8rNrN)

141 "You could lose weight eating nothign but potatoes, as long as you ate plain, baked potatoes for breakfast, lunch, and dinner. Calories in/calories out is still 98% of weight loss. If you want to make people gain weight, put them on a cruise ship with a buffet. They will have a little meat, some eggs, some cake, some veggies, - and all that variety will add up to a 1200 calorie meal. Give them all the potatoes they can eat and they might have trouble eating 300 calories. It's the taste and the calories that cause weight gain, not carbs."

Dr. Fung says if you inject rats with insulin, they gain wait. Again, he's not saying "carbs make you fat."

He's saying carbs affect your insulin levels which affects your body's set weight point.

Posted by: Harun at February 17, 2017 06:23 PM (UBBWX)

142 Love me some gainzzz posts. I have been concentrating more on maintaining than on losing for a few weeks and will probably continue to do so for a few more. I am bouncing around between being down 56 to 60 pounds since July. I will hit the 60 mark and then spend the weekend enjoying some food & drink that I otherwise wouldn't and then go back to being disciplined during the week. This is keeping me in that four pound range.

The reason I am trying to just maintain now is I found that if I go much below that 60 pound mark I will have to replace my entire work wardrobe which I am not prepared to do at the moment. To get a picture for what losing 60 pounds is like, consider this: right now an XL t-shirt fits me just about the same as a 3XL did in July.

Currently I have to wear a suit & tie several days a week (so very un-hobo of me) and I can't spend several hundreds of dollars replacing suits that don't fit me, especially since the suits I am wearing now I just bought in November. Once the suit-wearing season ends in a few months I'll get back on the weight loss train.

Posted by: Texas Zombie at February 17, 2017 06:24 PM (34alA)

143 I like paleo. Bashing rival tribesmen over the head with rocks is good exercise.

Posted by: Insomniac at February 17, 2017 06:24 PM (0mRoj)

144 #checkyourinsulinprivileges

Posted by: thathalfrican - be water my friend at February 17, 2017 06:25 PM (nDcc3)

145 Once the suit-wearing season ends in a few months I'll get back on the weight loss train.
Posted by: Texas Zombie at February 17, 2017 06:24 PM (34alA)

I like the way you think

Posted by: Harry Paratestes at February 17, 2017 06:26 PM (wmaTe)

146 PLus cotton balls. I read somewhere that is one of the tricks. They eat cotton balls to fool their stomach into thinking they ate something.

Plus they're tasty!

Posted by: Milo Finderbinder at February 17, 2017 06:26 PM (qUNWi)

147 >>>
The man and I decided to cut out alcohol during the week, and we haven't had any since Sunday night and he's noticed a huge change in his mood and concentration. I've had to do this before for some meds I was on, and it seemed that I lost a little but hit a plateau; I hope that combining it with some exercise and IF, I can break through.

Best of luck to everyone on their GAINZZZZZZ, and thanks, Ace!

...

thanks.

i've cut alcohol out but I don't know if I'll stick to it religiously.

just curious to see if it does anything positive. (Even tho I barely drink as it is.)

One thing I'm curious about: in a social situation, where others are drinking, and I'm NOT drinking, will it be... I don't know, you know. Like I'm missing out?

So far I don't really care. I'm not with people who are getting drunk. In that situation, I think you'd HAVE to drink or you'd find the drunks kind of annoying. but in the usual situation, doesn't seem weird. Doesn't change anything, really.

The real sacrifice for me will be giving up... DIET SODA.

That is a rubiocon I don't know if I have the stones to cross.

Posted by: ace at February 17, 2017 06:26 PM (8rNrN)

148 Ace, thank you for a really cogent explanation of insulin resistance. I've red about it some, but none of the doctors/diet books have explained it in layman's terms quite as well as you have.

I have been in a stall due to the neck brace. No exercise, very little movement, etc. I've adjusted my diet accordingly, and I haven't gained any weight, but I'm ready to try some baby steps. So, no gainz, until I see the doc.

But I am proud of you guys. Nicely done!

Posted by: moki at February 17, 2017 06:27 PM (gfRCk)

149 Texas Zombie- Great to see you.

Posted by: Ben Had at February 17, 2017 06:27 PM (WkTN2)

150 I guess complaining about how hard it is to gain weight is right out, huh?

I do feel badly for those of you who have to struggle with metabolic disorders.

On the Gainzzz front, I'm into the second month of meet prep. Less volume more intensity. Makes for shorter sessions - hard but short...sorta like my joh....wait whut?!?

Posted by: browndog at February 17, 2017 06:27 PM (bGMOs)

151 Most people end up looking like their parents. Not all the time, but most of the time. Genetics can be a blessing or a curse.

Whatever works to keep yourself from being a lazy fat ass, do it. You can't really help how you look to some extent, but you can be healthy and strong.

Posted by: Hairyback Guy at February 17, 2017 06:28 PM (5VlCp)

152
There's some donkey "doctor" on youtube who says we eat too much protein.

Indeed, he claims that when we eat too much protein, we get fat.

Posted by: Soothsayer 45 at February 17, 2017 06:28 PM (s7qwY)

153 Long time reader, first time poster on GAINZZZZZ.

I had played with the intermittent fasting for several months, and it dropped my weight by 3-8 pounds but no further benefit. I started HFLC 3 weeks ago. I'm down only about 7 pounds so far, but like ace I'd already dropped almost 20 pounds from my max weight 2 years ago. So the weight loss GAINZZZZ have not been huge yet, but are happening. What I have noticed is that clothes, especially scrubs, are getting looser in the waist and co-workers keep asking me how much weight I'm leaving. No real exercise plan yet, but the last couple days I've committed to meeting FitBit goals of 12K steps, 12 flights, and 45 active minutes.

I've found that eating a brick of cheese as a meal easily lets me go another 16 hours or even more without hunger. Monitor ketones with strips, took 5 days to go in but no major carb slip ups and consistently have at least trace ketones detected.

Posted by: Conservative Crank's iPhone at February 17, 2017 06:28 PM (7PRAc)

154 >>>After making bone broth once...if I'm going trash my entire kitchen, I'm going to need a bigger pay off.

you can buy powder and just mix it.

they make kuerig cups for the keurig coffee machine. Like "Lono" is the brand or something. Got it on amazon. Cost too much and eh but whatever, I have broth whenever I want it.

which is right the hell now, actually. Still haven't eaten.

Posted by: ace at February 17, 2017 06:28 PM (8rNrN)

155 Since I've slowly gotten back to paleo-ish eating and lifting I'm down 4 pounds.

Posted by: thathalfrican - be water my friend at February 17, 2017 06:28 PM (nDcc3)

156 149 Texas Zombie- Great to see you.
Posted by: Ben Had at February 17, 2017 06:27 PM (WkTN2)

You too! Hope you are doing well!

Posted by: Texas Zombie at February 17, 2017 06:28 PM (34alA)

157 One thing I'm curious about: in a social situation,
where others are drinking, and I'm NOT drinking, will it be... I don't
know, you know. Like I'm missing out?

Posted by: ace at February 17, 2017 06:26 PM (8rNrN)

"I drink to make other people more interesting."

-- Earnest Hemingway

Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo at February 17, 2017 06:29 PM (rF0hx)

158 Remember Charlene Tilton ("Lucy") on Dallas? She always had a tendency toward chub. And the only thing she claimed would stop it was to stop eating at 3 p.m. until the next day. She may have come off as a conniving bimbo, but she was ahead of her time.

they say 3pm is the perfect time for the last meal because it's... i don't know. Insulin production naturally falls off afterwards? Something? Anyway, you wind up with lower insulin when you stop eating at 3.

I don't think I can do that b/c i work out at night.

Posted by: ace at February 17, 2017 06:12 PM (8rNrN)

Acey, being that you're only 29, you can't remember Charlene Tilton unless you watch Dallas reruns.

Posted by: SandyCheeks at February 17, 2017 06:29 PM (joFoi)

159 >>>I've found that eating a brick of cheese as a meal easily lets me go another 16 hours or even more without hunger.

i think I've mentioned this but when I used to think that fat makes you fat, I thought I shouldn't eat cheese. However, occasionally I'd buy a brick of cheese at costco (and I mean a BRICK) and eat nothing but that for three days.

And I'd lose weight..

I didn't understand why. "Science" said I should have gained weight

Posted by: ace at February 17, 2017 06:30 PM (8rNrN)

160 I'm thinking about starting gainzz next week.

*checks schedule*

Maybe two weeks.

Posted by: Soona at February 17, 2017 06:30 PM (Fmupd)

161 Posted by: Conservative Crank's iPhone at February 17, 2017 06:28 PM (7PRAc)

If you lost 7 pounds in 3 weeks that is pretty good gainzzzz. Averaging over 2 pounds a week is a pretty snappy pace.

Posted by: Texas Zombie at February 17, 2017 06:30 PM (34alA)

162
One thing I'm curious about: in a social situation, where others are drinking, and I'm NOT drinking, will it be... I don't know, you know. Like I'm missing out?

No. We have been in the diplomatic circuit for almost 30 years. We do not drink, and have never been made to feel awkward or out of touch for not drinking. I think the key is not making people feel bad if they choose to drink. And if you are really self conscious, choose a liquor you absolutely hate, and carry the glass around all night.

One day I'll have to tell you guys the story about the Soviet attaches I was seated with at a dip function in Greece. Heh.

Posted by: moki at February 17, 2017 06:31 PM (gfRCk)

163 So, I've never shared my gainzzz before but here goes:

Roughly at the time when Ace posted the first real thread on this topic, the one about IF, my doctor told me that I had type 2 diabetes and put me on Metformin. I decided that since I had tried everything else and failed that I'd give HFLC and IF a shot.

I started at 354 pounds. 11.5 months later and I am at 249. No real dieting since I consider what I'm eating to be good for the rest of my life. No real exercise yet. My weight loss could have been faster but I still get too much protein in my diet. The food is delicious and I'm never hungry. I don't get tired during the day, my emotions aren't on a roller-coaster throughout the day. It's been wonderful. My diabetes is gone as is the Metformin.

I'm not saying that this is the right thing for everyone but I am saying that it's the right thing for me and there is an increasing body of research that seems to show that it is, at least, not actively harmful to anyone.

At any rate, I'd like to thank Ace for writing that post and whatever one of you linked dietdoctor.com. You literally saved my life. Remember that, Ace, the next time you're feeling blue about what you've accomplished here.

Posted by: Laughing in Texas at February 17, 2017 06:32 PM (xQfPr)

164 At any rate, I'd like to thank Ace for writing that post and whatever one of you linked dietdoctor.com. You literally saved my life. Remember that, Ace, the next time you're feeling blue about what you've accomplished here.
Posted by: Laughing in Texas at February 17, 2017 06:32 PM (xQfPr)

You are a champ! Love hearing your story. And, yes, thanks Ace for kicking this whole thing off.

Posted by: Texas Zombie at February 17, 2017 06:33 PM (34alA)

165
At any rate, I'd like to thank Ace for writing that post and whatever one of you linked dietdoctor.com. You literally saved my life. Remember that, Ace, the next time you're feeling blue about what you've accomplished here.
Posted by: Laughing in Texas at February 17, 2017 06:32 PM (xQfPr)

Bravo!!!! That is excellent!

Posted by: moki at February 17, 2017 06:34 PM (gfRCk)

166 I feel sorry for you guys. Really. I'm not going without food for six hours, much less, 12, 16, or 24.

I have my methods, tasty methods. Yeah, some like green tea suck. But you can't believe how good a cup of coffee with cream and sugar tastes after weeks of green tea.

Lots of 'white' protein like chicken, turkey, white fish like flounder, cod, sea bass... Occasional meat is kinda good after that.

It's a balance between indulging and denying. 90% denying, 10% indulging. Most people reverse those numbers.

Posted by: E Depluribus Juan at February 17, 2017 06:34 PM (ZFUt7)

167 But Ace, doesn't DIET SODA cause an insulin response even though it doesn't contain sugar?

Posted by: goodluckduck at February 17, 2017 06:35 PM (yqvys)

168 162. Drinking - depends.

At home, or with family, or with very close friends, no problem.

Business &/or meet and greet stuff? Mineral water with a slice of lemon, thank you very much.

Posted by: Your Decidedly Devious Uncle Palpatine. Glory to Kekistan! No Longer Accepting Harem Applicants at February 17, 2017 06:35 PM (lutOX)

169 Posted by: Texas Zombie at February 17, 2017 06:24 PM (34alA)

Daaaaay-ummmmmm.

Pls consider posting pix!

Posted by: SandyCheeks at February 17, 2017 06:35 PM (joFoi)

170 'It's like dipping your T-shirt in orange juice and eating it': Experts explain how dangerous the 'cotton ball diet' really is
After Eddie Murphy's 23-year-old daughter, Bria Murphy, admitted to seeing models eat cotton balls dipped in juice to stay skinny, the diet quickly caught on with young women.

Described in detail on chat rooms and on YouTube videos, the diet involves swallowing up to five cotton balls dipped in orange juice or a smoothie in one sitting -- in order to feel full without gaining weight.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-2511255/
Experts-explain-dangerous-cotton-ball-diet-really-is.html

Posted by: Anon Y. Mous at February 17, 2017 06:35 PM (R+30W)

171 No gain this week. I've been busy with finals and feeling sick. I'm going to try and get into the gym next week. I have started up the Italian lessons on duolingo again.

Posted by: Colorado Alex in Exile at February 17, 2017 06:35 PM (Ji5vP)

172 I'm sitting here eating pork skins and onion dip.

Posted by: Grump928(C) at February 17, 2017 05:34 PM (HBt+c)

THANK YOU for reminding me! I have the sour cream in the fridge and the onion dip packet in the cupboard. Plus 2 bags of pork rinds.
It's time to make the dip.

Posted by: Miley, the Duchess at February 17, 2017 06:36 PM (tHwdc)

173 One thing I'm curious about: in a social situation, where others are drinking, and I'm NOT drinking, will it be... I don't know, you know. Like I'm missing out?

Diet tonic water (yes, there is such a thing) with a wedge of lime. Voila. Everyone thinks you're having a G & T.

Posted by: SandyCheeks at February 17, 2017 06:36 PM (joFoi)

174

Posted by: SandyCheeks at February 17, 2017 06:36 PM (joFoi)

Mmmmmm Gin and Tonics. Or in my case; club sodas.

Posted by: thathalfrican - be water my friend at February 17, 2017 06:38 PM (nDcc3)

175 Ace - Vladimir Vladimirovich has mineral water at official functions, as does Golden Scalp Weasel. If they can do it, so can you.

Posted by: Your Decidedly Devious Uncle Palpatine. Glory to Kekistan! No Longer Accepting Harem Applicants at February 17, 2017 06:38 PM (lutOX)

176 >>>You literally saved my life. Remember that, Ace, the next time you're feeling blue about what you've accomplished here.

Here, here!

Posted by: Max Power at February 17, 2017 06:39 PM (q177U)

177 I like pork rinds with sour cream and salsa.

Posted by: sinalco at February 17, 2017 06:39 PM (yODqO)

178 Diet tonic water (yes, there is such a thing) with a wedge of lime. Voila. Everyone thinks you're having a G & T.
Posted by: SandyCheeks at February 17, 2017 06:36 PM (

That's exactly what I do when I'm at a party and not drinking. I notice me not drinking bothers some people and it's easier to carry a water with lime then to say I'm not drinking.

Posted by: CaliGirl at February 17, 2017 06:40 PM (u8Ywb)

179 I have to go out to diner in an hour, since the wife is on her way home from the airport, I plan on launching my eat, drink, and be scary method. As far as the diet conversation goes, you don't scare me. lol

Posted by: Berserker- Dragonheads Division at February 17, 2017 06:40 PM (aMlLZ)

180 I went to my main meal at noon about 15 years ago. Evening meal is pure 16th century. Cheese , apples and wine.

Posted by: Ben Had at February 17, 2017 06:40 PM (WkTN2)

181 Thanks to Ace for this good explanation of insulin resistance! I am diabetic, and they told me I was Type 2 and had insulin resistance, even though I had dropped to 129 pounds (!) at the time of diagnosis. They told me that Type 1 diabetics always get it as children, and I was 35 at the time, so it had to be Type 2. Turns out they were full of crap, and my body actually makes no insulin at all. It's right there on the blood test reading 0.0. I don't know why this is so baffling to them.

Posted by: Chris M at February 17, 2017 06:40 PM (eAZVt)

182 Apparently DIET SODA doesn't spike insulin much on its own.

http://www.livestrong.com/article/531926-does-a-diet-soda-affect-insulin/

Posted by: goodluckduck at February 17, 2017 06:40 PM (yqvys)

183 Who was that broad back in the 80's early 90's with the short platinum hair who would yell at the fat ass people in her exercise videos?

Susan something....wonder what happened to her?

Posted by: Hairyback Guy at February 17, 2017 06:41 PM (5VlCp)

184 >>> But Ace, doesn't DIET SODA cause an insulin response even though it doesn't contain sugar?

evidence is sketchy but it might. I think the idea is that you start producing saliva and possibly insulin in response to what you think you're going to be eating, so if you trick your body with a calorie-free soda, it will still produce some insulin in response to the sugar it thought was coming.

but even if that's real, it's a small response.

still, i'm curious to see if not having a bunch of weird molecules in me all the time would be a good thing

Posted by: ace at February 17, 2017 06:41 PM (8rNrN)

185 RJ's summer plans: to be hotter than the sand and bigger than the ocean. Swimsuit models will be sucking in their guts when I strut by.

Posted by: Regular joe at February 17, 2017 06:41 PM (ROIz5)

186 Posted by: CaliGirl at February 17, 2017 06:40 PM (u8Ywb)

That's a weird phenomena. "WHY ARE YOU NOT DRINKING?!"

Posted by: thathalfrican - be water my friend at February 17, 2017 06:42 PM (nDcc3)

187 183 Who was that broad back in the 80's early 90's with the short platinum hair who would yell at the fat ass people in her exercise videos?

Susan something....wonder what happened to her?

Posted by: Hairyback Guy at February 17, 2017 06:41 PM (5VlCp)

Susan Powter I think.

Posted by: Insomniac at February 17, 2017 06:42 PM (0mRoj)

188 Good work, Laughing in Texas!

Posted by: ace at February 17, 2017 06:43 PM (8rNrN)

189 That's a weird phenomena. "WHY ARE YOU NOT DRINKING?!"
Posted by: thathalfrican - be water my friend at February 17,

It says more about the person that's uncomfortable than it does about me. I even make sure the bartender doesn't give me a water glass. Sometimes they try to put my drink in a glass that makes it obvious I'm not drinking.

Posted by: CaliGirl at February 17, 2017 06:44 PM (u8Ywb)

190 Susan Powter I think.
Posted by: Insomniac at February 17, 2017 06:42 PM (0mRoj)

Yup! Thanks Insomniac! She must have made a fortune and retired or something.

Posted by: Hairyback Guy at February 17, 2017 06:44 PM (5VlCp)

191 HOLY SHIT!!!!!

Just got home from work and saw the length of this thing! *

Wow....

*and no, I'm not quoting John Holmes' mail-order bride's diary! **

**that made no sense.

Posted by: Dirty Randy at February 17, 2017 06:45 PM (br2jI)

192 The real sacrifice for me will be giving up... DIET SODA.

That is a rubiocon I don't know if I have the stones to cross.

Oh, f_ck.
That stuff is like giving a drunk 151 proof rum. Not sure of the chemical interactions involved but that stuff is Hitler in a bottle for your body.
It's not going to kill you to have a little sugar water.

Pet peeve. Google it when you have a week to spare on the point/counterpoints.

Posted by: E Depluribus Juan at February 17, 2017 06:45 PM (ZFUt7)

193 I'm 5'2, 125 lbs., and type 2 diabetic. Insulin during pregnancies, diet controlled when not pregnant.

Thank you Ace for these gains threads. My blood sugar levels have dramatically improved.

Posted by: Euro at February 17, 2017 06:45 PM (L62zp)

194 100 pounds of GAINZZZ (LOZZEZZZ) is pretty impressive.

Posted by: ace at February 17, 2017 06:46 PM (8rNrN)

195
Susan Powter I think.
Posted by: Insomniac at February 17, 2017 06:42 PM (0mRoj)

The one with a spiky buzzcut? Her exercise videos were horrible. Kathy Smith and Denise Austin had pretty decent exercise videos. At least those were the ones that my gym had playing when the trainers couldn't be there.

Posted by: moki at February 17, 2017 06:46 PM (gfRCk)

196 Posted by: ace at February 17, 2017 06:26 PM (8rNrN)

So my guy is very stress prone; when I was on the meds and not drinking, I found it was easier to deal with the stresses I was going through, and my sleep was more restful. Once I got off the meds, it was simple to resume the pattern we'd fallen into.

This past week sans alcohol, he's been getting up early (like 6:30), working on teaching himself Unreal for a few hours, (he's a developer and wants to write a game at home), before getting ready for work. Despite my truck needing a new fuel pump to the tune of $1000, he's far less stressed than he normally would be.

WRT to Diet Soda, that is the one big sticking point for him. I'm down to maybe a glass or two at lunch and that's it, but he drinks it A LOT. Diet Coke is like his sacrament, and it's going to be a hard break.

When I was not drinking and went out a few times knowing everyone else there would be drinking a lot and give me shit, I had gin and tonics, hold the gin. Seemed like a real drink, tasty lime, and didn't have to suffer the, 'why aren't you drinking' question because I didn't feel like explaining personal stuff.

Posted by: atomicplaygirl (Gab: atomicplaygirl) at February 17, 2017 06:47 PM (Gim9y)

197 I wasn't too worried about my weight before the election. I thought I'd need the extra pounds in the HappyFunCamps (sorta kidding). Now that it looks like Trump will remain president, and I may end up manning the trebuchet against the endless invasions of crybullies, I think I'm going to have to do something about it.

So I bought an elliptical.

I don't use it often, because that makes me super hungry. But I'm doing that and eating HFLC. I'm not weighing myself because GAWD but I am measuring myself and keeping records.

Also, ghee in coffee is amazing (closely followed by heavy whipping cream).

And now I'm craving pig skins.

Posted by: Prudie, one-named and unashamed at February 17, 2017 06:48 PM (JIzji)

198 >>>>It's not going to kill you to have a little sugar water.

why would i need or want sugar water? If I could cut diet soda AND regular sugar-water soda, why wouldn't i do that?

I don't get it. It's like a lot of people are personally, emotionally invested in the "No, stay unhealthy!" thing. I don't know if it's fear of falling behind or what.

Posted by: ace at February 17, 2017 06:48 PM (8rNrN)

199 Posted by: Laughing in Texas at February 17, 2017 06:32 PM (xQfPr)
That's wonderful, I'm happy for you.

Posted by: CaliGirl at February 17, 2017 06:48 PM (u8Ywb)

200 I never use a scale to see how my weight is. I always go by how I look. people look at me and don't put me over 200. yet I'm 230, and when I look at other people at 230 they look twice as big as me. I know the old joke about big boned, but I have gotten into accidents that should have broke bones, but I never broke bones. The doctor who replaced my fathers knees said he had a hell of time sawing through his bones, they were thick and heavy, so who knows, maybe I do have a hyper alloy combat chassis. I know muscle weighs more, so it could be that. My doctor said he wanted me at 200. I said I'll look like I came out of auschwitz if I do that so forget it, not happening. He thought I was kidding. I was 190 when I graduated high school and looked like a frigging twig. I don't look at the scale.

Posted by: Berserker- Dragonheads Division at February 17, 2017 06:49 PM (aMlLZ)

201 195
Susan Powter I think.
Posted by: Insomniac at February 17, 2017 06:42 PM (0mRoj)

The one with a spiky buzzcut? Her exercise videos were horrible. Kathy Smith and Denise Austin had pretty decent exercise videos. At least those were the ones that my gym had playing when the trainers couldn't be there.
Posted by: moki at February 17, 2017 06:46 PM (gfRCk)

That's the one. I never watched her videos or anything. I just remember her book being all over the place.

Posted by: Insomniac at February 17, 2017 06:49 PM (0mRoj)

202 Ok, I bought some grass fed bone broth sticks on Amazon. It comes out to $2 a serving. If they are filling and taste ok that may be a fair shake. We shall see.

Posted by: JT in KC at February 17, 2017 06:50 PM (FoSz+)

203 "The real sacrifice for me will be giving up... DIET SODA."

I used to go through a two liter plastic bottle a day. So hauling seven to eight of those jugs from the grocery store once a week and up the stairs to my apartment was a huge chore.

I finally figured out that adding a packet of artificial sweetener to water in my large water bottle gives me the sweet taste without all the aggravation and cost.

When I would run low on the diet soda, I'd add a bit of water to fill up on volume and to last until I could get to the store. So over time I got used to watered down soda.

Now I don't need the carbonation or the dark color. When I have real diet soda now, it tastes too sweet.

So for you, you could just add Stevia to water.

Posted by: The Media Suxs at February 17, 2017 06:50 PM (LC/ka)

204 oh wait i think that commenter just meant do whatever i could to get off of diet soda.

well, I want to get off of diet soda, but there's no way on God's earth I'm getting back on sugar water to do it. That would be like getting off the e-cig by taking up smoking cigarettes again.

Posted by: ace at February 17, 2017 06:50 PM (8rNrN)

205 Posted by: ace at February 17, 2017 06:48 PM (8rNrN)
The same people that are uncomfortable with me not drinking are the same ones that freak out if I don't eat bread.
I don't announce it but they notice and try to get me to eat a cupcake. I just say no thank you.

Posted by: CaliGirl at February 17, 2017 06:50 PM (u8Ywb)

206 I'm pretty sure regular pop gave me diabetes in the first place. I was drinking 6-10 cans of it per day for years, and I think I fried my pancreas. The doctor says that's impossible, but he was wrong about the insulin resistance thing, so I don't believe him. I drink diet pop now, and it has no affect at all on my blood sugar. The glucose in regular pop gets absorbed into your blood stream almost instantly, and causes severe spikes. One can here and there won't kill you, but take it easy! Also, "real sugar" is no better in this respect than HFCS.

Posted by: Chris M at February 17, 2017 06:50 PM (eAZVt)

207 Real quick, and not to be a dick, but is the old "eat decent, and get aerobic exercise" not a thing anymore?

This has to be sliced and diced into actual chemistry?

Really just askin'......

I'm happy for your personal GAINZZZZ bro!

Posted by: Dirty Randy at February 17, 2017 06:51 PM (br2jI)

208 I can't find a shirt that looks good untucked.

Posted by: Untucker Uncarlson at February 17, 2017 06:52 PM (IqV8l)

209 >>>So for you, you could just add Stevia to water.

i do that a little. I'm lower on soda now but not off it. I have one, two cans a day, sometimes 3-4 when I got out to dinner. (As I'm not having alcohol.)

i can try that as you say and just keep using less and less sweetener until I finally just drink damn water.

( i am drinking more water but it kinda takes effort to get up to the two liters a day or whatever they suggest)

Posted by: ace at February 17, 2017 06:52 PM (8rNrN)

210 Posted by: Chris M at February 17, 2017 06:50 PM (eAZVt)
I love that you call soda pop.

Posted by: CaliGirl at February 17, 2017 06:52 PM (u8Ywb)

211 Posted by: Berserker- Dragonheads Division at February 17, 2017 06:49 PM (aMlLZ)

I'm in a similar situation. I have large bone structure but without the height. According to the BMI charts I'm "obese" but if you saw me that's the last thing you'd think. If I got down to the "ideal" weight they prescribe, I would also look like a concentration camp survivor.

Posted by: Insomniac at February 17, 2017 06:53 PM (0mRoj)

212 Ace is just trying to look good for that Twitter whore.

Posted by: Milo Finderbinder at February 17, 2017 06:53 PM (qUNWi)

213 My achilles heel is Coke Zero. I love the stuff. But when I got sick in the hospital (!) it reacted very badly with the tamiflu they gave me. So I stopped drinking it for a few days, and found that I could do with less. I'm down to one a day, and I have decided to give it up for Lent, along with the requisite chocolate and sugar.

I figure than not having it for forty days will be enough time to break the craving, and then I won't be as enticed after Easter.

Posted by: moki at February 17, 2017 06:53 PM (gfRCk)

214 >>> Real quick, and not to be a dick, but is the old "eat decent, and get aerobic exercise" not a thing anymore?

sure it's a thing. Look at obesity rates skyrocketing. That plan is workin' like gangbusters.

In fact, obesity rates took off like a plane the same year the US government told people to stop eating fat and make up for it by eating carbs.

Posted by: ace at February 17, 2017 06:53 PM (8rNrN)

215 180 I went to my main meal at noon about 15 years ago. Evening meal is pure 16th century. Cheese , apples and wine.
Posted by: Ben Had at February 17, 2017 06:40 PM (WkTN2)

That's one of my go-to methods if I need to drop pounds quickly. Also, every Lent I give up sweet foods as a sacrifice, and it really is tough the first couple weeks. That's good for a 5 lb loss by Easter, if I don't do any regular workout.

I realized after reading ace's post that I'm not an insulin-resistant organism, so regimens like the "Fit for Life" diet work for me. However I can't stay on that program longterm. The one other benefit to that plan was that my sinus difficulties cleared up while I was on it.

Posted by: kallisto at February 17, 2017 06:54 PM (nNdYv)

216 I haven't eaten food in 5 years. I live on sunlight and the sparks of Kundalini.

Posted by: Swami Pooni at February 17, 2017 06:54 PM (n3hky)

217
I'm in a similar situation. I have large bone structure but without the height. According to the BMI charts I'm "obese" but if you saw me that's the last thing you'd think. If I got down to the "ideal" weight they prescribe, I would also look like a concentration camp survivor.

Posted by: Insomniac at February 17, 2017 06:53 PM (0mRoj)

Fucking bingo. You know the deal. If we did the "accepted weight people would say are you sick?

Posted by: Berserker- Dragonheads Division at February 17, 2017 06:54 PM (aMlLZ)

218 My sister visited recently and practically tried to shove kale down my pie hole.

I resisted.

Posted by: eleven at February 17, 2017 06:55 PM (qUNWi)

219 "I love that you call soda pop."

I think it's a Chicago thing. My BIL in LA was making fun of me for it.

Posted by: Chris M at February 17, 2017 06:55 PM (eAZVt)

220 At any rate, I'd like to thank Ace for writing that post and whatever one of you linked dietdoctor.com. You literally saved my life. Remember that, Ace, the next time you're feeling blue about what you've accomplished here.
Posted by: Laughing in Texas at February 17, 2017 06:32 PM (xQfPr)

Jebus! That's outstanding.

I'm getting verklempt!

*fans face with fingers*

Posted by: SandyCheeks at February 17, 2017 06:55 PM (joFoi)

221 >>> I'm pretty sure regular pop gave me diabetes in the first place. I was drinking 6-10 cans of it per day for years, and I think I fried my pancreas. The doctor says that's impossible, but he was wrong about the insulin resistance thing, so I don't believe him.

for me, I think it was soda (I was a fiend drinking sugar water) and sugared breakfast cereals. Powerful one-two punch. Sugar all morning, then sugar all day.

i think I blew out my insulin sensitivity by age 12. Sue, I could lose weight while practicing every day for a sport, but not all of it, and of course it would come right back when the season ended.

Posted by: ace at February 17, 2017 06:56 PM (8rNrN)

222 218 My sister visited recently and practically tried to shove kale down my pie hole.

I resisted.
Posted by: eleven at February 17, 2017 06:55 PM (qUNWi)

You're killing me here, kale is a superfood.

I grow a crap ton of it. It's really good for you.

Posted by: CaliGirl at February 17, 2017 06:56 PM (u8Ywb)

223 Posted by: Chris M at February 17, 2017 06:50 PM (eAZVt)

Drinking regular soda might have contributed to Type II diabetes, but it can't give you Type I diabetes. Type I is an autoimmune condition; it has nothing to do with diet. Basically, Type I happens when you get sick, your immune system goes to attack the virus/bacteria/ whatever, but screws up the process and attacks your pancreas instead. And so far, there's no cure. Type II can usually be made less debilitating by a low carb diet and more exercise.

Posted by: right wing yankee at February 17, 2017 06:57 PM (26lkV)

224 I haven't eaten food in 5 years. I live on sunlight and the sparks of Kundalini.
Posted by: Swami Pooni at February 17, 2017 06:54 PM (n3hky)

Hahaha...there was some dude who did a short documentary about following some dot head Indian dude who claimed he ate nothing but sunlight and meditation. The guy in the movie followed this dude around and would stare at the sun for hours to "fuel" up. Then at the end of the movie he found the Indian dude sneaking into an Indian buffet restaurant (no kidding!) and found out the whole thing was a scam.

Posted by: Hairyback Guy at February 17, 2017 06:57 PM (5VlCp)

225 for me, I think it was soda (I was a fiend drinking sugar water) and sugared breakfast cereals. Powerful one-two punch. Sugar all morning, then sugar all day.

That Kaboom was out to get you from the start.

Posted by: moki at February 17, 2017 06:57 PM (gfRCk)

226 Sorry CaliGirl.

I'll give it a shot.

Posted by: eleven at February 17, 2017 06:58 PM (qUNWi)

227 >>>Ok, I bought some grass fed bone broth sticks on Amazon. It comes out to $2 a serving. If they are filling and taste ok that may be a fair shake. We shall see.

i'm having the lonolife cups right now. I put some butter in it for body (and fat, of course). Pretty good. But then, on the one meal a day plan, things tend to taste better than they otherwise would.

what are the broth sticks you bought, what brand?

Posted by: ace at February 17, 2017 06:58 PM (8rNrN)

228 Fucking bingo. You know the deal. If we did the "accepted weight people would say are you sick?
Posted by: Berserker- Dragonheads Division at February 17, 2017 06:54 PM (aMlLZ)

No shit. People would think I had cancer or something.

Posted by: Insomniac at February 17, 2017 06:58 PM (0mRoj)

229 1 I was told there would be no math.

Posted by: pep at February 17, 2017 05:32 PM (LAe3v)

2 I was told there would be no math.

Posted by: JT in KC at February 17, 2017 05:32 PM (FoSz+)

Ok how many times has THIS ever happened on the blog?

Posted by: Country Boy - just a humble, occasionally hotheaded poster at February 17, 2017 06:59 PM (Jcg9Q)

230 why would i need or want sugar water? If I could cut diet soda AND regular sugar-water soda, why wouldn't i do that?

Sure, do both. But, pet peeve, diet soda is worse for people who wish to lose weight then plain old sugar water.

It seems to effect the 'satiated' normal body response in some weird fashion. I don't drink Pepsi or Coke for those reasons. Only 'generic' store brand. If I have Pepsi or Coke I want more than six ounces. 'Generic' store brand doesn't have the same effect. Six ounces and I'm done.

If it's effecting the 'satiated' normal body response in some weird fashion in regards to fluid urge, it might just carry over to food. Not worth the risk to me.

Posted by: E Depluribus Juan at February 17, 2017 06:59 PM (ZFUt7)

231 I think it's a Chicago thing. My BIL in LA was making fun of me for it.

Posted by: Chris M at February 17, 2017 06:55 PM (eAZVt)

======

It is. I grew up in Park Ridge. Soda was always Pop. It's like gym shoes vs. sneakers.

Posted by: Flyboy at February 17, 2017 06:59 PM (bUjWk)

232 Now that the days are longer I feel more motivated to go to the gym. There, I discovered I can play solitaire on the recumbent bike touchscreen. A half hour goes by in the blink of an eye!

Posted by: kallisto at February 17, 2017 06:59 PM (nNdYv)

233 >>>You're killing me here, kale is a superfood.

put it on parchment and bake it on a cookie sheet in the oven for 15 minutes or whatever, nice and crispy.

Posted by: ace at February 17, 2017 07:00 PM (8rNrN)

234 "I love that you call soda pop."

I think it's a Chicago thing. My BIL in LA was making fun of me for it.

Posted by: Chris M at February 17, 2017 06:55 PM (eAZVt)

Its definitely a Chicago thing. I have friends out there, and when I met one for diner out there he asked if I wanted a pop. My New jersey came out and I said pop, what the fuck gay ass shit is that? lol

Posted by: Berserker- Dragonheads Division at February 17, 2017 07:00 PM (aMlLZ)

235 I've got a second doing pork skins and French onion dip. A good snack and I lose my desire to keep eating fairly quick.

I used to drink 6-8 diet cokes a day. Once in blue moon I'll have a regular pop and it feels like a treat.

Posted by: JT in KC at February 17, 2017 07:00 PM (FoSz+)

236 I'm going on vacation Sunday and I'm going to eat drink and be merry. When we get back I'll get back with the program.
I am dreaming of the chocolate souffle.

I will let you guys know if I gain weight. I hope not.

Posted by: CaliGirl at February 17, 2017 07:00 PM (u8Ywb)

237 Just don't pronounce pecans "peekins".

That's just weird.

Posted by: eleven at February 17, 2017 07:00 PM (qUNWi)

238 Great post, Ace - and I'm very happy that you're making the GAINZZZ you desire!

You're inspired me to get back on the paleo horse.

Posted by: Miley, the Duchess at February 17, 2017 07:00 PM (tHwdc)

239 I did one meal a day for a week plus bulletproof coffee to break myself out of a slump and maybe jump start my metabolism to begin to lose weight. it wasn't as hard as i thought it would be but the results were poor. For me it was about proving i could control my food intake (you're not the boss a' me!') and punishing my body for being such a fat pig and an annoyingly stubborn M&F'er.

I'm not sure it got the message.

Posted by: Cannibal Bob at February 17, 2017 07:01 PM (g6yUI)

240 >>>
Sure, do both. But, pet peeve, diet soda is worse for people who wish to lose weight then plain old sugar water.

i'll buy that diet soda is bad for me (that's why I'm fixin' to give it up) but I cannot buy that drinking eight teaspoons of rapidly available table sugar in ten minutes is a good thing to do.

Posted by: ace at February 17, 2017 07:01 PM (8rNrN)

241 Posted by: ace at February 17, 2017 07:00 PM (8rNrN)
The kale chips are good, ill even eat those.

Posted by: CaliGirl at February 17, 2017 07:01 PM (u8Ywb)

242 No shit. People would think I had cancer or something.
Posted by: Insomniac at February 17, 2017 06:58 PM (0mRoj)

When I was doing extreme juice fasting my boyfriend's mom was getting neurotic thinking I had AIDS.
Seeing pics of myself from that year, I can see why she was alarmed.

Posted by: kallisto at February 17, 2017 07:01 PM (nNdYv)

243 I would have had the first post if I wasn't handicapped by the italics.

Posted by: JT in KC at February 17, 2017 07:01 PM (FoSz+)

244 No shit. People would think I had cancer or something.

Posted by: Insomniac at February 17, 2017 06:58 PM (0mRoj)

that's exactly what happened to me. I got down to 210-215 once and people got frigging scared, they thought I had cancer.

Posted by: Berserker- Dragonheads Division at February 17, 2017 07:01 PM (aMlLZ)

245 What happens if you down 6 rum and cokes in an hour?

Asking for a friend?

Posted by: Jukin the Deplorable and Profoundly Unserious at February 17, 2017 07:02 PM (cOHS7)

246 Insomniac, Berserker-
Try being a woman with dense bones. 5' 7" here, 27 inch waist, and I weigh 160. If I got down to that magic number that the BMI says I should be- I think it's something like 130-140, I'd look like a Holodomor survivor.

On the plus side, I've spent the last two decades falling off horses, with only minor injuries to show for it. (And a possibly broken tailbone, but let's not talk about that. I can't prove that it was broken, so I'm assuming it wasn't."

Posted by: right wing yankee at February 17, 2017 07:02 PM (26lkV)

247 What happens if you down 6 rum and cokes in an hour?

Asking for a friend?

Lena Dunham starts looking like Penelope Cruz.

Posted by: eleven at February 17, 2017 07:03 PM (qUNWi)

248 NOOD

Posted by: eleven at February 17, 2017 07:03 PM (qUNWi)

249 Nood bitchez!

Posted by: CrotchetyOldJarhead at February 17, 2017 07:04 PM (6z9sL)

250 >>>sure it's a thing. Look at obesity rates skyrocketing. That plan is workin' like gangbusters.

In fact, obesity rates took off like a plane the same year the US government told people to stop eating fat and make up for it by eating carbs.

I meant a real, conscious effort to incorporate that into one's life- eat "regular" food, get exercise, just pay attention to what you're putting into your body... and certainly not talking about listening to what any government agency had to say about it..... you kind of slotted me into a square peg when clearly I'm round..... lol

Posted by: Dirty Randy at February 17, 2017 07:04 PM (br2jI)

251 Insomniac, Berserker-
Try being a woman with dense bones. 5' 7" here, 27 inch waist, and I weigh 160. If I got down to that magic number that the BMI says I should be- I think it's something like 130-140, I'd look like a Holodomor survivor.

On the plus side, I've spent the last two decades falling off horses, with only minor injuries to show for it. (And a possibly broken tailbone, but let's not talk about that. I can't prove that it was broken, so I'm assuming it wasn't."

Posted by: right wing yankee at February 17, 2017 07:02 PM (26lkV)

well at 5'7" with a 27 inch waste at 160, from what I know about women I would say you look pretty good.

Posted by: Berserker- Dragonheads Division at February 17, 2017 07:05 PM (aMlLZ)

252 238

You're inspired me to get back on the paleo horse.
Posted by: Miley, the Duchess at February 17, 2017 07:00 PM (tHwdc)
***
Bad news - the Mongol ladies with your special delivery got busted in Dallas.

Posted by: Your Decidedly Devious Uncle Palpatine. Glory to Kekistan! No Longer Accepting Harem Applicants at February 17, 2017 07:06 PM (lutOX)

253 >>> I did one meal a day for a week plus bulletproof coffee to break myself out of a slump and maybe jump start my metabolism to begin to lose weight. it wasn't as hard as i thought it would be but the results were poor. For me it was about proving i could control my food intake (you're not the boss a' me!') and punishing my body for being such a fat pig and an annoyingly stubborn M&F'er.

I'm not sure it got the message.

...

it will resist.

it's a wild mustang you gotta tame.

but seriously: duration is the key. And staying with it gets hard in the gainzzz-less periods. It's easy when you're gainzzzing. You can see the gainzzz. But there are periods where there are no noticeable gainzzz.

those periods are where you really earn the GAINZZZ to come.

No seriously. Those periods try you. But you will break through at some point.

I have resistance points every 5-8 pounds. I'm due for another stall right now.

Posted by: ace at February 17, 2017 07:06 PM (8rNrN)

254 What happens if you down 6 rum and cokes in an hour?

Asking for a friend?

Lena Dunham starts looking like Penelope Cruz.

Posted by: eleven at February 17, 2017 07:03 PM (qUNWi)

Oh hell no, there isn't enough booze in the frigging galaxy.

Posted by: Berserker- Dragonheads Division at February 17, 2017 07:06 PM (aMlLZ)

255 "i can try that as you say and just keep using less and less sweetener until I finally just drink damn water.

( i am drinking more water but it kinda takes effort to get up to the two liters a day or whatever they suggest)"

It's funny because I'm thirsty a lot - no medical conditions, all checked out - just am. So any other drink, say orange juice or whatever would put weight on me if I drank it in the quantities I drank diet soda or my low cal sweetened water.

Water itself is just too plain for me. But I do get a ton of water each day with my hybrid sweetener/water drink.

Yeah, you should give it a try. Try full Stevia/water first since giving up the carbonation and color is a process in itself. Then just lower the amount of Stevia over time.

Posted by: The Media Suxs at February 17, 2017 07:07 PM (LC/ka)

256 After 45 years of extreme physical labor, wine is my analgesic. No aspirin, Ibuprofen or Advil. I can just get up and go back to work.

Posted by: Ben Had at February 17, 2017 07:07 PM (WkTN2)

257 251 Insomniac, Berserker-
Try being a woman with dense bones. 5' 7" here, 27 inch waist, and I weigh 160. If I got down to that magic number that the BMI says I should be- I think it's something like 130-140, I'd look like a Holodomor survivor.

On the plus side, I've spent the last two decades falling off horses, with only minor injuries to show for it. (And a possibly broken tailbone, but let's not talk about that. I can't prove that it was broken, so I'm assuming it wasn't."

Posted by: right wing yankee at February 17, 2017 07:02 PM (26lkV)

well at 5'7" with a 27 inch waste at 160, from what I know about women I would say you look pretty good.
Posted by: Berserker- Dragonheads Division at February 17, 2017 07:05 PM (aMlLZ)

^This. Sounds like the weight is in all the right places!

Posted by: Insomniac at February 17, 2017 07:07 PM (0mRoj)

258 Posted by: Flyboy at February 17, 2017 06:59 PM (bUjWk)
I call sneakers tennis shoes.

Posted by: CaliGirl at February 17, 2017 07:07 PM (u8Ywb)

259 It's interesting to see how strongly some people feel about their diet/exercise beliefs.

.....

By the way, I cut back on junk food and lost three pounds last week. Some of it was shed water weight.

I'm still using the "Body by Science" approach recommended by my doctor. It works well with my schedule and physical tolerance. I noticed that I'm trying to carry out two incompatible approaches at once, though, so I will have to address that.

The cool thing is watching my body reshape. I have naturally shapely muscles even when I'm skinny, so now that I'm working out harder I'm getting some visible recontouring.

Posted by: Emmie at February 17, 2017 07:08 PM (xVuS6)

260 "What happens if you down 6 rum and cokes in an hour?

Asking for a friend?

Lena Dunham starts looking like Penelope Cruz."

--------

Then I'll keep it under five!

Posted by: Jukin the Deplorable and Profoundly Unserious at February 17, 2017 07:08 PM (cOHS7)

261 229 1 I was told there would be no math.

Posted by: pep at February 17, 2017 05:32 PM (LAe3v)

2 I was told there would be no math.

Posted by: JT in KC at February 17, 2017 05:32 PM (FoSz+)

Ok how many times has THIS ever happened on the blog?
Posted by: Country Boy - just a humble, occasionally hotheaded poster at February 17, 2017 06:59 PM (Jcg9Q)

It's the Horde Mind again.

Posted by: rickl at February 17, 2017 07:08 PM (sdi6R)

262 it will resist.

it's a wild mustang you gotta tame.

but seriously: duration is the key. And staying with it gets hard in the gainzzz-less periods. It's easy when you're gainzzzing. You can see the gainzzz. But there are periods where there are no noticeable gainzzz.

those periods are where you really earn the GAINZZZ to come.

No seriously. Those periods try you. But you will break through at some point.

I have resistance points every 5-8 pounds. I'm due for another stall right now.

Posted by: ace at February 17, 2017 07:06 PM (8rNrN)

I have one last question ace, if you're still here....... is this how you want to spend the rest of your life? Where's the end of this, where you just, I dunno, get to live?

Posted by: Dirty Randy at February 17, 2017 07:08 PM (br2jI)

263 well at 5'7" with a 27 inch waste at 160, from what I know about women I would say you look pretty good.

Posted by: Berserker- Dragonheads Division at February 17, 2017 07:05 PM (aMlLZ)

Heh, thanks. I guess my point was that it took me a long time to accept that I'm never going to be a supermodel. Fortunately for me, my doctors are smart enough that they don't look at the number on the scale and have fainting fits

Posted by: right wing yankee at February 17, 2017 07:09 PM (26lkV)

264 "Water itself is just too plain for me. But I do get a ton of water each day with my hybrid sweetener/water drink."

----------------

More ice in your cocktails..hic

Posted by: Jukin the Deplorable and Profoundly Unserious at February 17, 2017 07:09 PM (cOHS7)

265 This thread makes me wanna start up BJJ again.

Posted by: thathalfrican - be water my friend at February 17, 2017 07:10 PM (nDcc3)

266 FBN: Reports that Bolton is being considered for NSA.

Posted by: Tami at February 17, 2017 07:10 PM (Enq6K)

267 209 >>>So for you, you could just add Stevia to water.

i do that a little. I'm lower on soda now but not off it. I have one, two cans a day, sometimes 3-4 when I got out to dinner. (As I'm not having alcohol.)

i can try that as you say and just keep using less and less sweetener until I finally just drink damn water.

( i am drinking more water but it kinda takes effort to get up to the two liters a day or whatever they suggest)

Posted by: ace at February 17, 2017 06:52 PM (8rNrN)

++++

I like this stuff.

https://www.walmart.com/ip/Arrowhead-
Sparkling-Lemon-Water-.5-l-6pk/17283479

It is an acquired taste. Basically, club soda with lemon zest flavoring.

For those that don't know, lemon zest is the flavor from the lemon peel. But, it has no calories, no sweeteners, artificial or otherwise.

Posted by: Anon Y. Mous at February 17, 2017 07:11 PM (R+30W)

268 Posted by: right wing yankee at February 17, 2017 07:02 PM (26lkV)
We are the same height but I weigh 129. I have a friend that wears the same size clothes as me and she weighs 155.
We are all individuals.
I don't look too skinny. A

Posted by: CaliGirl at February 17, 2017 07:12 PM (u8Ywb)

269 Posted by: right wing yankee at February 17, 2017 07:09 PM (26lkV)
I bet we could share clothes too.

Posted by: CaliGirl at February 17, 2017 07:15 PM (u8Ywb)

270 Its definitely a Chicago thing. I have friends out there, and when I met one for diner out there he asked if I wanted a pop. My New jersey came out and I said pop, what the fuck gay ass shit is that? lol

I'm a lifelong Southron, everything is Coke.

Posted by: Grump928(C) at February 17, 2017 07:15 PM (HBt+c)

271 TL;But DID read. Mainly because I wanted to see whether you nailed the Hypoglycemia issue, which you did.

Until fairly recently many people, even some in the medical community, literally wrote off Hypoglycemics as lazy: How can can sugar make both hyper AND hypo glycemics so sick?! Well, it does, and it's awful.

I was always very fit, thin, but not skinny, then I became really sick and couldn't exercise and gained 50 lbs due to lack of exercise and depression.

I can assure you that the 2 lbs you drop like a stone when thin is more difficult to lose when overweight and is much more difficult to keep off.

My doc would not likely approve fasting for me but, re the high carb/high fat chart... that's the ticket. When I eat meat and veggies, lots of meat and veggies, I lose weight. The most I've lost came when I tossed all diet foods, margarine, and low-fat milk and replaced with the foods the good Lord provides for us.

These posts are pretty cool and I hope they inspire others to do for themselves what Ace has done, I.e., get to know more about the science of the human body.

Posted by: Niedermeyer's Dead Horse at February 17, 2017 07:15 PM (SEXy3)

272 i'll buy that diet soda is bad for me (that's why I'm fixin' to give it up) but I cannot buy that drinking eight teaspoons of rapidly available table sugar in ten minutes is a good thing to do.

Posted by: ace

I guess you stopped reading before the end. If diet soda has '1 Weird Way' to effect your perception of being satiated and sugar water didn't -- which would you choose?

All day I feel satiated. Except a short period in late morning, early afternoon, and late afternoons. All periods easily satiated by the consumption of around 500 calories at each meal. For a person of my height and weight and activity level, that's actually a deficit.

Why would I drink a concoction, ignoring calories, that would screw with my perception of being fully satiated? That's why I'm saying drink the sugar water, especially cheap generics.

Posted by: E Depluribus Juan at February 17, 2017 07:17 PM (ZFUt7)

273 >>>I have one last question ace, if you're still here....... is this how you want to spend the rest of your life? Where's the end of this, where you just, I dunno, get to live?

well, for one thing, I'm healthier. I'm sleeping better. I have more energy during the day. My blood pressure medication has been readjusted downwards now twice and I might soon get the go ahead to go off all blood pressure medication.

I flat-out look better.

Assuming I can keep it up, this will be the first summer of my life where I not only am not embarrassed to take a shirt off at a pool party, I'll be actively trying to finagle an invite just to do it.

why stop?

I think some people think this is a prison sentence where maybe you're getting some results, but your life is otherwise dreadful.

It's not. It's... kinda good. I'm not in jail. I do a lot more now that I ever did in my (earlier) 20s. I'm actually kinda living life.

There are periods where it's hard, and there are periods of adjustment when you shock your body a little too much, but past those shocks, the body adapts and you feel pretty much good.

Sure, when I push these fasts to the 24 hour mark I do get hungry, but it's not like some terrible thing.

It's kind of a good thing. Like Conan being hungry after taking the heads of his enemies.

It's really not bad. I have very low willpower. Believe me, as Trump would say. I'm a lazy hedonist.

I would not be doing this if it were that hard.

Posted by: ace at February 17, 2017 07:19 PM (8rNrN)

274 Shit, are we going to be tested on this?

Posted by: Berserker- Dragonheads Division at February 17, 2017 05:52 PM (aMlLZ)

Yes, but no essay questions.
You'll be asked to list the comments that are incorrect, by number.

Posted by: Miley, the Duchess at February 17, 2017 07:20 PM (tHwdc)

275 I like herbal teas for flavored liquid. I used to drink a lot of soda years ago and I like a glass or 2 of coke zero sometimes on the weekend. I find that hot liquid works best for me if I have a mild craving or hunger impulse. The Celestial seasoning Berry Zinger is great for my sweet cravings. I also don't have my last meal of the day too early OR too late as either can make it hard for me to fall asleep.

Posted by: PaleRider at February 17, 2017 07:20 PM (dkExz)

276 >>>All day I feel satiated. Except a short period in late morning, early afternoon, and late afternoons. All periods easily satiated by the consumption of around 500 calories at each meal. For a person of my height and weight and activity level, that's actually a deficit.

i have almost no problems with satiety anymore, until I get to the 20 hour mark of a fast, which i think is kinda understandable.

so the idea that diet soda causes a lowering of perceived satiety isn't part of my experience and it's not much of a concern.

also, like I said above, I have one or two cans of diet soda a day now. I'm not really pounding it like I used to.

Posted by: ace at February 17, 2017 07:21 PM (8rNrN)

277 "I love that you call soda pop."

I think it's a Chicago thing. My BIL in LA was making fun of me for it.

Posted by: Chris M at February 17, 2017 06:55 PM (eAZVt)

Native of SW PA here and we called it "pop" too.

Posted by: SandyCheeks at February 17, 2017 07:21 PM (joFoi)

278 Like others that have commented...I do not drink soda unless it has rum in it....drink water all day at work...then come home and indulge in a coke zero and Bacardi Gold or a glass of Apothic Crush....no soda on the weekends just a couple of Modelo's....or an occasional Painkiller...soda is just plain bad on it's own.

Posted by: KWDreaming at February 17, 2017 07:21 PM (AkcYt)

279 right now i'm having a love affair with this second cup of broth.

Broth plus lots of himalayan sea salt + steak seasoning + a tablespoon and a half of butter is really good.

Posted by: ace at February 17, 2017 07:22 PM (8rNrN)

280 Congrats on the weight loss Ace, seriously. The key
is keeping it off. As long as your body is fighting the weight loss,
it's going to be hard to maintain the GAINZZZZZZZZZZZ enthusiasm.

Posted by: bjrubbs at February 17, 2017 05:55 PM (zwwMT)

This from a guy who eats cottage cheese and PEAS?
Do you even live, bro?

Posted by: Miley, the Duchess at February 17, 2017 07:23 PM (tHwdc)

281 some ideas for food that won't break your zero carb/protein fast

instead of butter/coffee, a couple cubes of boullion (beef/chicken/etc) in boiling water, add some butter to it

heavy cream (either by itself or for a sweet treat add a liquid zero carb sweetner like EZ-Sweetz)

Posted by: Joel at February 17, 2017 07:28 PM (pfX6+)

282 regimens like the "Fit for Life" diet work for me

Highly recommended. I think it's 90% psychology, 10% facts. But it has worked for me, and wife. For decades. Wife was pictured in KT thread a couple days ago. Same weight as day we married, many, many, many decades ago. You can do the math. People referred to her in thread as 'young girl' or 'young lady'.

Under "Fit for Life" you just look at food differently.

Posted by: E Depluribus Juan at February 17, 2017 07:32 PM (ZFUt7)

283 200 I never use a scale to see how my weight is. I always go by how I look. people look at me and don't put me over 200. yet I'm 230, and when I look at other people at 230 they look twice as big as me. I know the old joke about big boned, but I have gotten into accidents that should have broke bones, but I never broke bones. The doctor who replaced my fathers knees said he had a hell of time sawing through his bones, they were thick and heavy, so who knows, maybe I do have a hyper alloy combat chassis. I know muscle weighs more, so it could be that. My doctor said he wanted me at 200. I said I'll look like I came out of auschwitz if I do that so forget it, not happening. He thought I was kidding. I was 190 when I graduated high school and looked like a frigging twig. I don't look at the scale.
Posted by: Berserker- Dragonheads Division at February 17, 2017 06:49 PM (aMlLZ)
______________________________________

Yup, same here. Been in a number of motorcycle accidents and never broke a bone whereas the docs (in one incident) were shocked I was still alive. At 235 right now, my lowest weight was 186 and I couldn't lose anymore no matter what I tried to do. Need to get back on the wagon again.

Posted by: WinLinBSDAdmin at February 17, 2017 07:33 PM (B11vO)

284 >>>heavy cream (either by itself or for a sweet treat add a liquid zero carb sweetner like EZ-Sweetz)

i don't feel like going out to get somethng so tonight I have a weird dinner planned:

three whole eggs
heavy cream
sugar free egg nog flavor syrump

blend that bitch up. Protein, fat, and sweetness. Cholesterol for makin' some T tonight.

Posted by: ace at February 17, 2017 07:33 PM (8rNrN)

285 three whole eggs
heavy cream
sugar free egg nog flavor syrump

blend that bitch up. Protein, fat, and sweetness. Cholesterol for makin' some T tonight.

I'd hit it.

Posted by: SandyCheeks at February 17, 2017 07:36 PM (joFoi)

286 This explanation makes so much sense. This is what I was doing with the clinic, but I didn't understand how it worked or why it was helping.

Posted by: WhiteKnight at February 17, 2017 07:36 PM (vWbx2)

287 eliminating carbs is not too difficult, but tracking macros to maintain a protein/fat ratio sounds like a pain in the ass

Posted by: Joel at February 17, 2017 07:37 PM (pfX6+)

288 OMG. The 'Stache is being coy about a shot at a National Security adviser spot. I can dream, can't I?

Posted by: vivi at February 17, 2017 07:39 PM (11H2y)

289 >>>eliminating carbs is not too difficult, but tracking macros to maintain a protein/fat ratio sounds like a pain in the ass

i don't do the latter. Just the general rule is "have fat when you can." your diet shifts mostly to protein so you just look for opportunities to add fat.

Posted by: ace at February 17, 2017 07:41 PM (8rNrN)

290 Lots of my family members develop type two diabetes in their 40s and 50s even though they are not fat, just a little pudgy. On the one hand it is probably just crappy genetics, on the other we ate a lot of sugar as kids. As Ace says above, we might have blown our insulin sensitivity by 12: sugary cereal every morning, soda during the day, ice cream or cookies after dinner.
I avoid the stuff now.

Posted by: DM at February 17, 2017 07:41 PM (garNZ)

291 here's how you add fat:

Order a side of sour cream

order a side of avacodo or gaucamole

put a pat of butter on your steak

make sure you eat all the fat on the steak

only dairy should be heavy cream

just try to think of things with a lot of fat, then add them.

Posted by: ace at February 17, 2017 07:42 PM (8rNrN)

292 Cottage cheese and peas is very filling. Cucumbers for desert to really fill up my belly.

Posted by: bjrubbs at February 17, 2017 07:47 PM (zwwMT)

293 Google "fat bombs".

Posted by: Lauren at February 17, 2017 07:48 PM (q8LaH)

294 just try to think of things with a lot of fat, then add them.

Posted by: ace at February 17, 2017 07:42 PM (8rNrN)
----------------------------------------------------

fair enough, I guess my concern was not so much adding fat as not eating too much protein

Posted by: Joel at February 17, 2017 07:50 PM (pfX6+)

295 Wife was pictured in KT thread a couple days ago. Same weight as day we married, many, many, many decades ago.

Was this the woman in the daisy field?

Posted by: kallisto at February 17, 2017 07:52 PM (nNdYv)

296 Admittedly, I haven't read every gainzzz thread but ace, are you saying you do a 24 hour fast every day of the week? So...you eat 7 meals a week?

Posted by: Tami at February 17, 2017 07:52 PM (Enq6K)

297 also, like I said above, I have one or two cans of diet soda a day now. I'm not really pounding it like I used to.

Posted by: ace

So you 'used' to 'pound' zero calorie diet soda - which seems to indicate it was not satisfying your thirst, and apparently hunger, because you used to be around a hundred pounds heavier.

Just drawing attention to your own words. Feel free to come to your own conclusion.

I have mine... Hitler in a bottle.

Posted by: E Depluribus Juan at February 17, 2017 07:53 PM (ZFUt7)

298 pre-made buffalo chicken cream cheese dip at most grocery stores is a nice high fat/low carb quick fix

Posted by: Joel at February 17, 2017 07:53 PM (pfX6+)

299 Was this the woman in the daisy field?
Posted by: kallisto

Shhh. But yup.

Posted by: E Depluribus Juan at February 17, 2017 07:55 PM (ZFUt7)

300 >>> Admittedly, I haven't read every gainzzz thread but ace, are you saying you do a 24 hour fast every day of the week? So...you eat 7 meals a week?

most nights. two nights out of the last ten I had a half-meal a bit after my main one.

i'm shooting for one meal a day, but the fast is already long enough, so if I'm hungry, I take that as a sign that my body is giving me good information and I listen to it and eat.

but the schedule is for one meal a day.

on heavy work out days I added a small meal a couple of hours after the workout.

Posted by: ace at February 17, 2017 07:56 PM (8rNrN)

301 let me put it this way:

One meal a day is the default, but it's not dogma.

Posted by: ace at February 17, 2017 07:57 PM (8rNrN)

302 Ok thanks for the reply.

Posted by: Tami at February 17, 2017 08:03 PM (Enq6K)

303 It's lost popularity, but the Zone diet is amazing and easy to do. It's really more of a lifestyle.

I've been eating in the Zone since the late 1990s - I haven't been sick from any sort of viral illness the whole time. In addition my athleticism is pretty amazing for somebody who will be 69 next month; I'm still able to do Judo Randori (Japanese word - means 'free style practice') with much younger players. The one downside to the Zone is that it is very difficult to lose weight while eating that way.

The Zone can be described as controlling your need for insulin by regulating your carb to protein ratio.

Posted by: An Observation at February 17, 2017 08:09 PM (aE0uq)

304 Shhh. But yup.
Posted by: E Depluribus Juan at February 17, 2017 07:55 PM (ZFUt7)

I admired your dedication at framing exactly the right scene, down to planting a field of daisies...and your wife is a beautiful model.

Posted by: kallisto at February 17, 2017 08:10 PM (nNdYv)

305 Have you calculated, once goal is reached, a plan to maintain weight consistent with staying alive, some exercise level, and food consumption/meals/caloric input per day?

Because you've got to be approaching that point. Best to start doing the math now.

I will say this, a couple years ago, when I was 29, I found a picture of some guy, about my height and weight, with the degree of arm definition and six pack level I *wanted* -- my goal to maintain. Clipped that pic and hung it on the treadmill.

Totally only slightly gay.

Posted by: E Depluribus Juan at February 17, 2017 08:15 PM (ZFUt7)

306 Thank you, Ace. This may answer a lot of questions for my own lifetime struggle.

Posted by: James Davis at February 17, 2017 08:17 PM (8D4/c)

307 I follow this site everyday but posting for the first time.

One of the best explanations of metabolic syndrome.. ACE rocks!!

Sharing this with many of my friends, family etc

Posted by: A J at February 17, 2017 08:20 PM (idTjS)

308 >>>Have you calculated, once goal is reached, a plan to maintain weight consistent with staying alive, some exercise level, and food consumption/meals/caloric input per day?

Because you've got to be approaching that point. Best to start doing the math now.

...

who me? I said a while ago: I want to look like Daredevil.

When I look like Daredevil, you'll know I'm done.

Then I will "maintain" on a Daredevil-style diet.

Posted by: ace at February 17, 2017 08:22 PM (8rNrN)

309 I admired your dedication at framing exactly the right scene, down to planting a field of daisies...and your wife is a beautiful model.

Posted by: kallisto at February 17, 2017 08:10 PM (nNdYv)

Well thank you very much. I *saw* the picture in my mind years before, then slowly worked towards that exact moment. A fellow Chester County artist, last name Wyeth or something, described it as being a 'transcendent moment'. Not sure what that means. Wife loves to model for me. The only photoshopping was changing dress color.

Posted by: E Depluribus Juan at February 17, 2017 08:23 PM (ZFUt7)

310 but seriously:

I am not close to hitting goal bodyfat yet. when I do get close, i will start adding in carbs little by little to get myself into a maintenance thing, I guess.

but i'm pretty far from that.

Posted by: ace at February 17, 2017 08:24 PM (8rNrN)

311 >>>Thank you, Ace. This may answer a lot of questions for my own lifetime struggle.
Posted by: James Davis at February 17, 2017 08:17 PM (8D4/c)

307 I follow this site everyday but posting for the first time.

One of the best explanations of metabolic syndrome.. ACE rocks!!

Sharing this with many of my friends, family etc
Posted by: A J at February 17, 2017 08:20 PM (idTjS)

...

thanks guys. get Dr. Jason Fung's first book, The Obesity Code. Short, easy to read. Can knock it out in two nights, maybe.

if you need further convincing after that, read Gary Taubes' "Why We get Fat" and then check out some Intermittent Fasting videos on YouTube.

Gary Taubes "Good Calories, Bad Calories" is much more detailed book, less of a diet book and more of a history of (bad) science book. It's great, but it's very detailed, and it's not the kind of book you want just to get you up to speed. It's a book for reading a few months down the road when you start to have doubts. And when you go into stalls, you will have doubts.

Posted by: ace at February 17, 2017 08:27 PM (8rNrN)

312 "Good Calories, Bad Calories" demonstrates in devastating detail that the "Fat-Heart" and "Fat-Obesity" hypotheses are the global warming of nutrition -- never proven, established by bullying, self-selected "consensus," always wrong, and with a devastating impact on society.

Posted by: ace at February 17, 2017 08:30 PM (8rNrN)

313 Had to look up Daredevil. Yeah, that seems completely achievable for a 29 year old on a three meal, 1,500 calorie a day, six hour a day gym regimen.

Posted by: E Depluribus Juan at February 17, 2017 08:30 PM (ZFUt7)

314 it might take some time

Posted by: ace at February 17, 2017 08:31 PM (8rNrN)

315 Posted by: E Depluribus Juan at February 17, 2017 08:23 PM (ZFUt7)

You're in Chester County? I'm near the Delco/Chesco line, not too far from Chadds Ford.

Posted by: kallisto at February 17, 2017 08:31 PM (nNdYv)

316 So you 'used' to 'pound' zero calorie diet soda - which seems to
indicate it was not satisfying your thirst, and apparently hunger,
because you used to be around a hundred pounds heavier.

Just drawing attention to your own words. Feel free to come to your own conclusion.

I have mine... Hitler in a bottle.

Somebody made a big deal about the correlation between diet drinks and people's weight, and decided that diet drinks cause people to be overweight... Until it was pointed out that he had cause and effect reversed; the drinks didn't make people overweight, it was that people drank them because they were overweight. Eliminating them completely had - surprise - absolutely zero effect on my weight.

I don't drink them because of the data that indicates that the phenylalanine sweetener may be related to an increased risk of stroke.

Posted by: An Observation at February 17, 2017 08:32 PM (aE0uq)

317 You're in Chester County? I'm near the Delco/Chesco line, not too far from Chadds Ford.

Posted by: kallisto

Cool. About 20 minutes away. I'm sure you've been to the Wyeth museum in that area.

I have a Wyeth print I bought there. Typical Chester County scene. Hangs over my fireplace. Not long ago, thinking of moving to coastal NC looked at one house -- the one out of hundreds that had exactly what I wanted. In the family room, the exact same Wyeth print. Life is so strange at times.

If Trump can fix Dodd/Wade I could get on with my life.

Posted by: E Depluribus Juan at February 17, 2017 08:40 PM (ZFUt7)

318 Posted by: E Depluribus Juan at February 17, 2017 08:40 PM (ZFUt7)

Some of us discussed a meet-up on, coincidentally, the art thread that featured a Wyeth painting. But it never really got organized.

Posted by: kallisto at February 17, 2017 08:49 PM (nNdYv)

319 ''Good Calories, Bad Calories" demonstrates in devastating detail that the "Fat-Heart" and "Fat-Obesity" hypotheses are the global warming of nutrition -- never proven, established by bullying, self-selected "consensus," always wrong, and with a devastating impact on society.

Posted by: ace

I like the concept of 'real food'. Obviously heading up the pretzel and potato chip aisle with shopping cart doesn't fit that bill. Nor does soda, whatever the calorie content.

But actual food that our ancestors either scrounged for in the dirt or chased after with sharp wooden spears. All the stuff on the outside aisles of the grocery store.

If it was up to me, a sign saying, 'Abandon hope, all yee who enter here' would be over all the inside aisles.

Posted by: E Depluribus Juan at February 17, 2017 08:53 PM (ZFUt7)

320 In the 1970s there was an artificial sweetener that was in wide usage called cyclamate. It was banned as a carcinogen - which is how we wound up with aspartame in modern diet drinks.

There is zero evidence that cyclamate causes cancer; the study that showed it happened when a researcher found that injecting cyclamate into lab rat's livers caused cancer. A couple of years another researcher found that injecting normal saline solution into rat's livers caused the same rate of cancer. That was followed by a researcher demonstrating that simply sticking a dry needle in the livers yielded the same cancer rate. Of course bureaucrats are never, ever, ever, wrong about anything - so the cyclamate ban remains in effect.

Perhaps President Trump can reverse that particular idiocy.

Posted by: An Observation at February 17, 2017 08:56 PM (aE0uq)

321 Some of us discussed a meet-up on, coincidentally, the art thread that featured a Wyeth painting. But it never really got organized.

Posted by: kallisto

I missed the Wyeth thread. Yeah, the upper Jersey group with CBD and JJ seems our closest bet. But then they always want it in upper NJ/NY. Bit of a ride.

Posted by: E Depluribus Juan at February 17, 2017 08:59 PM (ZFUt7)

322 >>>I like the concept of 'real food'. Obviously heading up the pretzel and potato chip aisle with shopping cart doesn't fit that bill. Nor does soda, whatever the calorie content.

But actual food that our ancestors either scrounged for in the dirt or chased after with sharp wooden spears. All the stuff on the outside aisles of the grocery store.

If it was up to me, a sign saying, 'Abandon hope, all yee who enter here' would be over all the inside aisles.

...

yeah, there's a lot of truth there. but you know, sugar as we know it is as processed and nearly as artificial as artificial sweeteners.

sugar in such a density of carbs and sweetness, minus any fiber or water, simply doesn't exist in nature.

even apples as we know them today are a recent invention.

we just were not engineered to handle such huge amounts of sugar in such high-density and high-volume doses.

Posted by: ace at February 17, 2017 09:01 PM (8rNrN)

323 Posted by: E Depluribus Juan at February 17, 2017 08:59 PM (ZFUt7)

They said they had a Philly/DE meet-up some years ago and 37 people showed up.

I'm going to sign off, but here's a good discussion of why Trump was justified in going off on the media hyenas yesterday:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=76AjOO_IAko

Posted by: kallisto at February 17, 2017 09:02 PM (nNdYv)

324 Posted by: ace at February 17, 2017 09:01 PM (8rNrN)

What's your lifting routine ace? Weight etc?

Posted by: thathalfrican - be water my friend at February 17, 2017 09:09 PM (nDcc3)

325 we just were not engineered to handle such huge amounts of sugar in such high-density and high-volume doses.

Posted by: ace

And then you have high fructose corn syrup -- roughly the nutritional equivalent of the 'minor' difference between cocaine and crack cocaine.

The 'inside' aisles of the supermarket are basically Crack Cocaine, Inc.

Posted by: E Depluribus Juan at February 17, 2017 09:09 PM (ZFUt7)

326 Logical! Logical! Well explained!

Posted by: Norman at February 17, 2017 09:15 PM (FtrY1)

327 So....best movie ever?

Posted by: Ostral B Heretic at February 17, 2017 10:00 PM (FAO5C)

328 311 >>>Thank you, Ace. This may answer a lot of questions for my own lifetime struggle.
Posted by: James Davis at February 17, 2017 08:17 PM (8D4/c)

307 I follow this site everyday but posting for the first time.

One of the best explanations of metabolic syndrome.. ACE rocks!!

Sharing this with many of my friends, family etc
Posted by: A J at February 17, 2017 08:20 PM (idTjS)

...

thanks guys. get Dr. Jason Fung's first book, The Obesity Code. Short, easy to read. Can knock it out in two nights, maybe.

if you need further convincing after that, read Gary Taubes' "Why We get Fat" and then check out some Intermittent Fasting videos on YouTube.

Gary Taubes "Good Calories, Bad Calories" is much more detailed book, less of a diet book and more of a history of (bad) science book. It's great, but it's very detailed, and it's not the kind of book you want just to get you up to speed. It's a book for reading a few months down the road when you start to have doubts. And when you go into stalls, you will have doubts.
>>>
I am a T2 Diabetic. Recently signed up with Dr Fung's Long Distance Program.
Already seeing results .
He clearly knows what he is doing ..

Example - I had dawn phenomenon (high morning sugar levels) as well as rise in blood sugar levels after intense strength exercise sessions (low rep/high weight)..
my PCP said, increase your night time insulin dose for dawn phenomenon and make sure you inject some short acting insulin before strength exercise.
Dr Fung explained that dont worry .. dawn phenomenon as well as the increase in BS after exercise is essentially the same thing. Liver is dumping sugar into blood stream and since you dont have insulin, BS is going up. Over time, your BS levels will come down as the "stored sugars" (from lifetime of insulin resistance) in your liver starts depleting.
Within one week of not doing anything, my morning sugars as well as sugar levels after exercise are going down automatically.
I fast between 16-18 hours a day and exercise in fasted state and do not eat for 3 hours after exercise as suggested by the brothers
I hope Dr Fung someday gets the kudos and recognition that he deserves. Also, it is important to understand that most doctors dont "get" IF/LCHF

Posted by: A J at February 17, 2017 10:02 PM (idTjS)

329 My fix for avoiding alcohol during social settings .. drink club soda with a slice of lemon. always works ..

Posted by: A J at February 17, 2017 10:04 PM (idTjS)

330 Gary Taubes was discredited like 8 years ago.

Posted by: Banana Splits Guy at February 17, 2017 10:05 PM (mcYkD)

331 My problem isn't weight gain or loss, it is the change in flexibility that comes from all this working out. Some joints get tight, others get loose. It is really disconcerting to try to walk when all your elements are akimbo.

Posted by: rammerplex at February 17, 2017 10:06 PM (S1j8O)

332 Ace, I am curious to know the size of your one meal - an approximate number of calories or any other measure you chose. It would help me out. Thanks.

Posted by: John at February 17, 2017 10:08 PM (jBXA8)

333 I started the HFLC diet with my wife in Sept. with some fasting and weights. She' lost 40 and I've lost 60 pounds. Blood pressure, lipids are all back in line. I gotta say I never thought I'd see my wife in a size 2 again!!!

Posted by: Foulbrew at February 17, 2017 10:16 PM (HcYG6)

334 Nitpick: There really aren't any carbs in meat, sure meat cells store glycogen, strings of glucose run together but this is just a store for immediate use, eg. anerobic exercise.

But the gist is on target, carbs without insoluble and soluble fiber is bad shit. No potatoes ever, no heavily processed wheat, just meat and veggies, mixed no peanuts nuts, dried fruit, etc.

Maximize aromatase inhibitors, HGH and Testosterone agonists, like button mushrooms, raw broccoli, cauliflower, celery, tumeric, garlic, red meat, vinegar, pineapple, lime juice, red wine, olives, yada, yada.
Jan. 1 mostly due to the diet (and working out 5-6 days per week, Crossfit and Swimming).

Posted by: DNF at February 17, 2017 10:18 PM (Z6zVT)

335 John, we found if you just cut out the carbs the rest (calories) will kind of take care of them selves... you will not be nearly as hungry. I took us about 3 weeks to get there.

Posted by: Foulbrew at February 17, 2017 10:19 PM (HcYG6)

336 >>>Ace, I am curious to know the size of your one meal - an approximate number of calories or any other measure you chose. It would help me out. Thanks.

well, one night before working out, I had a western omlette. But that wasn't enough food, so I had a half a peanut butter sandwhich on low-carb bread right before the workout.

Another night before a workout, I had a double cheeseburger with bacon (no bun), a salad with blue cheese dressing, a couple of spoonfulls of pasta from someone else's dish that i just had to TRY (I'm only human), and like a half an avacado for extra fat.

that was another night that I was hungry due to exercise, so I had two eggs and two sausage patties a couple hours after the workout. I was going to try to go to bed hungry, but my body said "No. Eat."

so those are actually my two meal days or meal and a half days.

Other nights I've had two whopers with cheese (no bread -- just the burger, cheese, pickles, onions, lettuce, and the ketchup and mayo, and i know ketchup has carbs but it's not huge) and grilled chicken sandwich (just the chicken and mayo and lettuce).

Like that. I wind up getting two whoopers and a grilled chicken, no bread. You wind up sometimes having to order that extra whopper because bread is filling, and without it, you kinda gotta get it from carbs.

Another meal I have a lot is three eggs and sausage patties -- raided from a sasuage egg mcmuffin (no bun, as usual).

so it's a fair amount of food. it's just mostly all meat and eggs and some fat where I can get it (extra avocado).

Posted by: ace at February 17, 2017 11:45 PM (8rNrN)

337 you kind of have to make up for the missing bread with more MEAT, I meant.

Posted by: ace at February 17, 2017 11:46 PM (8rNrN)

338 >>> Gary Taubes was discredited like 8 years ago.

yet i've lost forty pounds, and 45 pounds of actual fat, while gaining five muscle.

yeah he's some kind of lunatic. Definitely keep chowing down all those carbs, dude -- they're SUPER good for you and stuff.

Your body really needs carbs. They're the one macronutrient your body TOTALLY needs, you know?

It's not as if they're the one macro your body does NOT need, given that it can sythesize gycogen from protein and ketones from fat. Or that it actually needs protein and fat, which cannot be synthesized from other things.

No, on overfed, overweight country should just keep slamming down all the energy-rich carbs becuse it's the energy dense food that is super-lacking in its diet.

Posted by: ace at February 17, 2017 11:49 PM (8rNrN)

339 cool AJ. Let us know how it goes!!

Posted by: ace at February 17, 2017 11:51 PM (8rNrN)

340 Late to work today because of all the RAINZZZ, and late to the thread, too.

Had an interesting experience this week.

For my running, I monitor my heartrate and for some reason (citruline?) this week, I had trouble getting my heart rate UP. I thought maybe it was the cold but it's been about the same temperature for all my last runs (high 50s).

Also, listened to all the Joe Rogan/Rhonda Patrick podcasts, and the last one (Jan 2017) she talks about the eating window--IF, basically--from a metabolic perspective. Apparently, women who had had breast cancer had a 40% lower chance of recurrence if they restricted their eating to an 11 hour window.

Then she said that 9 hour seemed to be the magic size for eating to reduce fat AND increase muscle.

But here's the catch: that 9 hours are for ANY metabolic activity, not just insulin. So outside of that 9 hours, you get water. Period. No coffee, no tea, no vitamins...nothing xenobiotic.

I =think= I do this, pretty much, anyway, but I'm gonna get stricter and maybe fast shorter time periods but only water between.

Also...sulfurophane. Def needs to be checked out.

Posted by: moviegique at February 17, 2017 11:53 PM (CcUfv)

341 ha ha .. does reverse psychology work

Posted by: A J at February 17, 2017 11:53 PM (idTjS)

342 that was for comment 338

Posted by: A J at February 17, 2017 11:53 PM (idTjS)

343 >>Ace
339 cool AJ. Let us know how it goes!!

will do.. keep these GAINZZ threads going.

The make the best blog in the interwebs.. better! I mean it

Posted by: A J at February 17, 2017 11:55 PM (idTjS)

344 >>>What's your lifting routine ace? Weight etc?

i'm doing stronglifts. sort of. browndog convinced me to do 3x5 like rippetoe instead of 5x5.

I'm on low weight so far. nothing i'd want to admit publicly.

i can only do it twice a week because i'm also doing martial arts a lot and most martial arts sessions are kind of half of a weightlifting workout (in terms of a lot of muscle recruitment) and I'm having trouble figuring out where to put the rest days.

I'm TRYING to get to the point where i can stack weightlifting on after a martial arts session and then have the next day as a rest day but damn, that's hard shit.

so far I have not felt like lifting weights after the MA.

The other way is to do weightlifting early, rest up, then do MA, but I'm kind of afraid I'll be dead for MA if I do that. But I think I have to bite the bullet on that.

Posted by: ace at February 17, 2017 11:56 PM (8rNrN)

345 Been there, done that.

Sensei don't care if you been bench pressing. Sensei wants 100 pushups. For starters.

Posted by: moviegique at February 18, 2017 12:00 AM (CcUfv)

346 it's not sensei, it's looking like a pussy in front of everybody when i fail.

also, it's just... okay, so trying do both the MA and weightliftting, at my age, a very ripe 28 year old (nearly 29)?

Body has its own agenda, and that agenda is sitting the fuck down.

Posted by: ace at February 18, 2017 12:04 AM (8rNrN)

347 IF I get up bright and early this week (fingers crossed) and I weightlift within a half hour of waking, THEN I think maybe I'll have rested enough for the night's MA session, and then I can do my weightlifting 3x a week with the recommended recovery days after each day of heavy work.

but I don't know. I have a feeling I'll just be flat-dead for MA.

Posted by: ace at February 18, 2017 12:06 AM (8rNrN)

348 eh only one way to find out, and as usual, the way to find out is not by being a pussy and avoiding finding out

Posted by: ace at February 18, 2017 12:07 AM (8rNrN)

349 Here's what I'm lifting:

Imagine the "Bro, do you even lift?" category.

Right now I'm in the "Bro you don't lift, period" category.

Posted by: ace at February 18, 2017 12:10 AM (8rNrN)

350 Let me tell ya, Ace. Once you cross over into 29? It gets a bit harder. I've been 29 for so long, I can't even remember what 28 was like.

I'm having trouble getting in 3 runs a week, even though they're not long runs (6-7K) and I don't find them very hard.

Another Dr. Patrick is big on is magnesium deficiency and I am seriously deficient (muscle cramps and fasciculations). Trying to eat a ton more leafy greens, pumpkin seeds, nuts, and cal-mag compounds.

I did a program last year that knocked the shortage out in about 3 weeks but I can't figure out what the magic was (and it was too involved to do casually again).

Posted by: moviegique at February 18, 2017 12:14 AM (CcUfv)

351 >>>
Another Dr. Patrick is big on is magnesium deficiency and I am seriously deficient (muscle cramps and fasciculations). Trying to eat a ton more leafy greens, pumpkin seeds, nuts, and cal-mag compounds.

weird i'm on a big magnesium kick this week. a commenter last week told me I was getting my magnesium from a bad source (citrate or aspartate) and I needed glycerin-bonded magnesium, plus cofactors to help its absorption like b6, biotin, and I think potassium bicarbonate.

there's a whole site he suggested called "GotMag," where I think mag stands for magnesium advocacy group.

apparently it's to be taken at night for best effect.

Posted by: ace at February 18, 2017 12:16 AM (8rNrN)

352 i've been kept from sleeping by cramping in my feet the last three nights.

i wonder if that's magnesium. I've never had this before.

Posted by: ace at February 18, 2017 12:17 AM (8rNrN)

353 OK, I don't know about these other types of magnesium, but what I've heard from virtually everywhere is that you need magnesium carbonate 29%.

It's supposed to help you sleep and generally calm the nerves, but if you screw it up, you'll be up with the runs as your body tries to get rid of it.

I've been cultivating muscle cramps for years and generally speaking it's a lack of calcium or magnesium or an imbalance, maybe--you gotta take 'em together for best results.

Posted by: moviegique at February 18, 2017 12:21 AM (CcUfv)

354 bjrubbs--not sure I understand your thesis, but if you're saying food has to taste bad to get your body not to want it, I can only say:

a) It's certainly true that some of the most effective diets I've been on basically prohibited me from eating anything I'd want to eat;

b) I found it difficult to maintain;

c) I've lost 50# with just IF and my taste has changed to boot--I'm less tempted by the high starchy/sweet stuff.

Posted by: moviegique at February 18, 2017 12:25 AM (CcUfv)

355 well i took two calcium-magnesium-potassium tabs plus a zma tab plus preventive ibuprofin plus rolled out my feet with the lacrosse ball so... hopefully no cramps will wake me up tonight.

Posted by: ace at February 18, 2017 12:28 AM (8rNrN)

356 >>>I've lost 50# with just IF and my taste has changed to boot--I'm less tempted by the high starchy/sweet stuff.

definitely true, my palate has shifted from children's foods to adult foods.

i'm only slightly tempted by carbs at this point. (Though yeah, they're still good. No gettin' around that.)

There is a trained reset of your body's desires as far as food.

I have a bunch of low-carb high protein halo top ice cream which I could eat any time I like without breaking any rules, but it just sits there.

Posted by: ace at February 18, 2017 12:31 AM (8rNrN)

357 Ace -

How does one say this correctly and not sound preachy...

Don't worry about what weights are on the bar, don't worry about what "others" may think about your routine.

Your only competition (if it is a competition) is yourself.

I started with an empty bar, and was a walking stick insect to boot.

I'm heavier and stronger, but in my new gym environs I'm a weakling. I have to remind myself every session that I'm training to best the best I can be and not to impress the other lifters (well, impress them that I'm a committed old man by working hard and showing up for every session).

End of sermon...

Posted by: browndog at February 18, 2017 12:32 AM (bGMOs)

358 the bar is embarrassing short of weight on squats. I bench more than I squat.

i'm doing box-squats which are supposedly tougher because they force you to definitely go lower than parallel (whereas in a normal squat you can cheat it and not go down far if you like), but still, it's pretty embarrassing.

oh well. I know they'll come along.

I just hate doing them. I really, really hate them.

Posted by: ace at February 18, 2017 12:35 AM (8rNrN)

359 browndog --

It's good advice. But I sometimes think that besides physical hormesis for the body, a little spiritual hormesis can help the soul, too.

Posted by: moviegique at February 18, 2017 12:36 AM (CcUfv)

360 Curcumin with pepperine is another tool for soreness / inflammation.

I started taking this a month ago and I'm off the Aleve entirely.

As to magnesium, make sure it's magnesium citrate. Yes, same shite they give you for Colonoscopies, just in a capsule form and only 500mg.

Posted by: browndog at February 18, 2017 12:38 AM (bGMOs)

361 i don't even know why I hate them. the weight isn't that high. They're over quickly. I'm only slightly breathing heavy after.

I guess everyone just hates squats.

Posted by: ace at February 18, 2017 12:39 AM (8rNrN)

362 >>>Your only competition (if it is a competition) is yourself.

that much i've got: I'm only in competition with the man I was the day before.

but i'm also in competition with age and laziness.

Posted by: ace at February 18, 2017 12:41 AM (8rNrN)

363 I =wish= I could squat well enough to hate them. Getting closer, though.

browndog--funny you should say that about inflammation. Curcumin is another thing that Dr. Patrick is high on, and yeah, the anti-inflammatory aspect is key.

Inflammation is basically age. So if you want to stave off that 29th birthday, you gotta fight it.

Posted by: moviegique at February 18, 2017 12:42 AM (CcUfv)

364 Wow just seeing the 3PM last meal talk.

Another thing Dr. Rhonda sez is all cause mortality goes up the more calories you eat after 5PM. (This was a study done with just women.)

I listened to all six three-hour podcasts this week and a lot of her other stuff, so my head is bubbling.

Posted by: moviegique at February 18, 2017 12:45 AM (CcUfv)

365 Hate Squats? Well, as the weight gets heavier, fear comes into play.

Am I going to get buried? Can I even walk it out?

But you do it anyway, 'cause you did the work the proceeding sessions(s) and you just commit to the process.

I think it's, technically, the hardest lift. Oddly enough, it's the only time I really enjoy that type of challenge.

Posted by: browndog at February 18, 2017 12:46 AM (bGMOs)

366 I get the age and laziness aspect, believe me I do.

I guess that I've done this for so long that it's become a habit.

Plus it's a form of therapy as I battle depression. Drugs and Talk didn't work, but heavy physical stress seems to keep me on the right side of the grass.

So I dare not stop hitting the "iron". And since I'm there in the gym, I've accepted the challenge to see what my "genetic potential" really is.

We all have our reasons Vasily...

Posted by: browndog at February 18, 2017 12:53 AM (bGMOs)

367 browndog -- vitamin d3 for depression

And yes, exercise for sure.

Check this 9 minute vid out:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=2&v=fqyjVoZ4XYg

Posted by: moviegique at February 18, 2017 12:57 AM (CcUfv)

368 >>>(eat stuff that doesn't taste great - I'm having peas and cottage cheese for dinner)
Posted by: bjrubbs at February 17, 2017 05:47 PM (zwwMT)

Like 1950s housewive's cooking.

Posted by: m at February 18, 2017 12:58 AM (3jGss)

369 Probably no one's gonna see this but Susan Powter, besides being spectacularly wrong ("fat makes you fat!") was a cokehead, allegedly.

Posted by: moviegique at February 18, 2017 01:04 AM (CcUfv)

370 @ Moviegique

My ingestables are: 5000units D3, Mg Citrate 500mg, Fish Oil 750mg,
Curcumin, Acidophilous, and of course - Creatine.

I've been doing the D3 for as long as I've been diagnosed.

Posted by: browndog at February 18, 2017 01:09 AM (bGMOs)

371 Excellent, bd! Are you doing any sulforophane?

We're trying to sprout broccoli here because it's supposed to be so awesome.

Posted by: moviegique at February 18, 2017 01:12 AM (CcUfv)

372 As far as diet soda--all the experts seem to hate it, but that seems to be mostly bias. That said, I will have to stop MY consumption, at least outside of my regular eating window, if I go for the "metabolize nothing" fast. (Which promotes autophagy, by the way, Ace.)

That said--all my gains, not just this year, but over the past seven have been done since dropping sugared soda for diet.

Oh, that was another thing on one of those podcasts: They gave 20 year old men 20 ounces of soda for a month or a year, I forget which, and their telomeres were 5 years shorter than the control group.

Diet soda may be bad in a lot of hard to pin down ways but I bet it doesn't shorten your telomeres like sugar.

Posted by: moviegique at February 18, 2017 01:17 AM (CcUfv)

373 I nosh on raw broccoli and cauliflower as a snack - don't like 'em cooked though.

Sulforophane? Not familiar with this compound...is this contained in broccoli

Posted by: browndog at February 18, 2017 01:26 AM (bGMOs)

374 Yes. Sulforophane is in cruciferous vegetables but there's a wide range in terms of quantity and bioavailability.

Broccoli sprouts have 10x (100x?) more than mature broccoli, and it's more available if you freeze it and even more it you heat it 70c. (One or the other, apparently the bonuses don't stack, as the RPGers say.)

If all goes well, I'll have my first batch of sprouts for eating by the next GAINZZ thread. We'll see what happens.

Fights cancer, depression, Alzheimer's and communists...

Supposed to boost testosterone, too, for mega-GAINNZZZZ.

Posted by: moviegique at February 18, 2017 01:37 AM (CcUfv)

375 Dayyyyuuummm, that's good shit!

Posted by: browndog at February 18, 2017 01:39 AM (bGMOs)

376 >>>338 >>> Gary Taubes was discredited like 8 years ago.

yet i've lost forty pounds, and 45 pounds of actual fat, while gaining five muscle.

yeah he's some kind of lunatic. Definitely keep chowing down all those carbs, dude -- they're SUPER good for you and stuff.

Your body really needs carbs. They're the one macronutrient your body TOTALLY needs, you know?

It's not as if they're the one macro your body does NOT need, given that it can sythesize gycogen from protein and ketones from fat. Or that it actually needs protein and fat, which cannot be synthesized from other things.

No, on overfed, overweight country should just keep slamming down all the energy-rich carbs becuse it's the energy dense food that is super-lacking in its diet.

You took all that from one sentence?

Posted by: Banana Splits Guy at February 18, 2017 06:28 AM (mcYkD)

377 Is this still active?

I saw there was some questions about why do this in here. I'll pass along my personal experience.

Pushing 50, my 'this is bullshit' moment was when I was struggling to get out of a car. I was so heavy and out of shape. So, I started walking 10k steps a day.

The weight came off, and I felt a lot better. So, I started running. More weight came off and I felt even better.

A buddy that lives in the CO mountains found out what I was doing and asked me to come out and go backpacking with him. So, I started training, hard.

Last summer, at 50 years old, I carried a 40lb backpack up to 12000 feet altitude and saw things I never, ever, thought I would get to see or experience.

My commitment to my self this year is to complete 2 duathlons. (A duathlon is sort of like a triathlon, but no swimming. It is run-bike-run). The 2nd duathlon I signed up for is olympic distance: 1.5mi run, 22mile bike, 10k run

3 years ago I struggled to get out of a car, now I'm running and cycling in races. At over 50 years old.

Now, why in the HELL would I ever allow myself to go back to struggling to get out of a car????

Posted by: gh at February 18, 2017 08:15 AM (D2q91)

378 moviequique,

i've ordered broccoli seeds and have read up on sprouting. i'm gonna give this crazy hippie initiative a shot.

thanks.

Posted by: ace at February 18, 2017 12:23 PM (8rNrN)

379 gh,

good on you. Keep it up!

Posted by: ace at February 18, 2017 12:24 PM (8rNrN)

380 >>>Ace, I am curious to know the size of your one meal - an approximate number of calories or any other measure you chose. It would help me out. Thanks.

well, one night before working out, I had a western omlette. But that wasn't enough food, so I had a half a peanut butter sandwhich on low-carb bread right before the workout.

Another night before a workout, I had a double cheeseburger with bacon (no bun), a salad with blue cheese dressing, a couple of spoonfulls of pasta from someone else's dish that i just had to TRY (I'm only human), and like a half an avacado for extra fat.

that was another night that I was hungry due to exercise, so I had two eggs and two sausage patties a couple hours after the workout. I was going to try to go to bed hungry, but my body said "No. Eat."

so those are actually my two meal days or meal and a half days.

Other nights I've had two whopers with cheese (no bread -- just the burger, cheese, pickles, onions, lettuce, and the ketchup and mayo, and i know ketchup has carbs but it's not huge) and grilled chicken sandwich (just the chicken and mayo and lettuce).

Like that. I wind up getting two whoopers and a grilled chicken, no bread. You wind up sometimes having to order that extra whopper because bread is filling, and without it, you kinda gotta get it from carbs.

Another meal I have a lot is three eggs and sausage patties -- raided from a sasuage egg mcmuffin (no bun, as usual).

so it's a fair amount of food. it's just mostly all meat and eggs and some fat where I can get it (extra avocado).

Thanks, Ace. Approximately same as my meals. I think I phrased the question wrong. I would like to know your one meal when you have fasted for 24 hours? You can't possibly stuff all the calories that you need in one meal?

Regarding Magnesium. It is very important not only for cramps but it also helps regulate cortisol. The best way to get enough Magnesium is to have a half an hour bath soak in Epson Salt. Your body will absorb Magnesium at more effective rate than supplements plus you get to soak your tired muscles.

Posted by: John at February 18, 2017 01:22 PM (jBXA8)

381 Thread is prolly dead but I would add with high protein, especially if you take ibuprofen, make sure you see a doctor and get your kidney's tested. High protein is harder on the kidneys, (it's a filter, they are a larger molecule), and too much ibuprofen can also affect the kidneys. Many people have kidney disease and don't know it; it becomes really obvious in late stages, but isn't in the early ones.

Just get a checkup and bloodwork; dialysis is no fun.

Posted by: atomicplaygirl (Gab: atomicplaygirl) at February 18, 2017 02:07 PM (Gim9y)

382 Still hanging tight around 150 after hitting my goal of 158 (high of 210). I'm still getting leaner, because people comment that I look like I'm losing weight.

I bench up to 110 lbs (female here), and have added dead lifts into the mix. Adding HIIT to the workout helps the cardio. Fitbit says I'm "excellent = 40" for health score, not bad for a female at 47 who went through alcohol rehab 9 months ago and weighed in at 200.

I am a true believer and walking proof that IF works - I still haven't given up sweets yet! Maybe for Lent.

Snack suggestion - I love popcorn mostly for the salt and butter. So I roast pecans with butter on the stove top, stir in garlic powder, salt and Parmesan cheese and have a great yummy snack! You can also do it in the microwave with spray olive oil for the fat.

Also do the sour creme ranch mix. Put that in with chicken or steak I eat for lunch along with pico de gallo.

start every day with butter coffee and extra MCT oil to get me to noon for my first meal of the day.

thanks for everything, ace. You are an inspiration!

Posted by: brakewater at February 18, 2017 02:14 PM (icZpK)

383 I love reading the inspirational stories on this thread.

Posted by: kallisto at February 18, 2017 03:23 PM (kD8Fh)

384 >>361 i don't even know why I hate them. the weight isn't that high. They're over quickly. I'm only slightly breathing heavy after.

I guess everyone just hates squats.

>>
Ace - I hated squats to but now I love them. The key issues were a) not the right form and b) the muscles - core, qauds, glutes etc- involved were not at the minimum levels of strength and flexibility required to do squats. My trainer worked with me on all those for 3 months before doing squats. Once I got the form right, I started cranking them out.

Form is super crucial...and sometimes the mind is not there where you want your body to be.

To give you an example, today was bench press day.

I benched 105 x 6 last week .. so the goal was to go 105 x 8 or 115 x 6 today. (I am 51 yo, 163lbs, t2 diabetic, indian )

I couldnt do it.. the best i could do was 105 x 6 .. because my form was going haywire on the barbell press at that weight. I tend to move the bar out and up (in an arc) as opposed to move it straight up and down over my chest (which i am able to do at lower weights). That movement is eating up my energy and killing me.

Funnily, I can easily do 50 lb x 12 single hand dumbbell press for each arm. So the issue is not the strength.. it is the stupid form and it happens at heavier weight .. and my mind is playing games at that weight and making me push the bar out as opposed to straight up.

I pump myself up for each set but make the same mistake again and again. It is in the mind. Frustrating as hell.

So the trainer is going to have me do other things - push ups etc - for a couple of weeks.. get my mind off bench press and bring me back to bench press after a few weeks.

Hope this helps.

Posted by: A J at February 18, 2017 04:11 PM (idTjS)

385 Ace,

Your article explaining the Jekyll-Hyde nature of insulin insensitivity was fantastic! I come from a family with 3 brothers - we are all "big" guys but only my youngest brother and I are the obese ones. I'm not morbidly obese - I'm just a fat f__k. Little Brother, though, is seriously morbidly obese. I'm going to make some immediate changes in my dietary regimen, and, if it works for me - I'll be preaching it to my Lil Bro'. Thanks for the info!

Major Rage

Posted by: Major Rage at February 18, 2017 04:46 PM (J5CGo)

386 The proof is in the pudding. If you are doing something that actually does work, and you're doing so responsibly (like consulting a physician, dietitian, etc.) then that's what is good for you. "One size fits all" is a bad way to approach the behavior of complex systems, but Ace is pretty much on target with the basics of how and why this stuff works. Variations on that may needed for individuals, but the fundamentals are as sound as fundamentals get in living organisms. We may think differently 20 years from now, but the same is true regarding internet pr0n.

Posted by: Crimso at February 18, 2017 06:27 PM (uCLNU)

387 Great explanation of the medical mechanics of insulin.

Many years ago, I ran across a book written by the guy who did the first explorations of Canada's Western Arctic. William Stephenson was a Canadian born of Icelandic parents. At college he reverted to an Icelandic form of his name: Vilhjalmur Stefansson. During his explorations he spent substantial periods living off the land, solely on meat and fish. On one expedition, he took a years supply of food, but stayed out for four years, only returning when he ran out of ammunition. Later he spent a year, in controlled conditions (essentially in jail!) on meat and fish alone, to prove to the 'experts', that man could in fact survive without carbohydrates! His preferred diet was 75% fat and 25% pure protein!

He recounted learning from the Inuit, their "prescription" for lasting through a blizzard while trapped in an igloo. First rule: do not eat for the first three days. You will not be doing anything, and need no extra food. You reserve your food, to 'stoke the fires' when the storm breaks, and you must go out to hunt or travel. And most storms do not last longer that 3 days.
He did this, of course, and reported that by the evening of the second day, he felt like hell, tired, cranky, headachy. He woke up on the morning of the third day, feeling great!

Mixing ancient and modern theory, the three days (resting) is long enough to *completely* burn all of the sugar or glycogen in your blood. muscles and liver (and purge ALL of the insulin too). You are living off 'the fat of the land'. That is, you reach complete ketosis. And your body is now tuned to use the fat, and not ignore it. (And of course, if also makes sense that for those in a dis-regulated state, they cannot 'burn' the fat, because the insulin prevents the production of the antagonistic lipase.)

After I quit smoking, I went on a fast for a few days (supervised). And that three day description is absolutely correct in every detail. Last meal on Sunday night, felt like I had the worst ever hangover on Tuesday, felt great on Wednesday: all the aches and pains were gone.

Analysis: Most would-be weight losers NEVER reach an insulin purged state. They start the diet but never fast long enough, to re-set the insulin baseline. And if they actually start with a fast, they give up because it is *damned uncomfortable* for the first couple of days. Your stomach thinks your throat has been cut! And you will likely have a massive headache for the entire second day of fasting. (Lots of water helps here).

When you think about, that all makes sense. It takes TIME to re-set the insulin baseline, and any and every morsel of food taken in, spoils at least some of the effects of the fasting to that point. It cannot be done with half measures.
Stirling Moss wrote that 'courage is the ability to overcome your fears of what will or might happen'. So losing weight takes courage!

Posted by: Dyspeptic Curmudgeon at February 18, 2017 11:13 PM (PcVc6)

388 I'm one of those guys, you know. So all I'll say is that this is a fascinating and informative piece by Ace, and good on all of you that are taking his advice - it sounds like it is difficult to sustain the commitment.

Posted by: steve walsh at February 19, 2017 08:10 AM (SPxQP)

389 I'm a physician and agree with most of this. One part is incorrect though.

"7. But since there's now such a high level of insulin in the blood, too much glucose gets swept out, and the fat person now experiences the very weird condition of being tired and being hungry, though having just eaten. Why? Because his damn blood has no sugar in it and that's a universal signal to the hunger centers to tell him to eat again. And he's not going to be doing any damn exercise in his low-blood sugar state."

This is just wrong. In people who are insulin resistant, their insulin levels are high, but their fasting glucose levels are also high. They are tired and hungry, but NOT because of hypoglycemia.

Posted by: Robert at February 19, 2017 02:02 PM (Dlt+i)

390 I workout in the morning - fairly strenuous - weight lifting some days - boot camp circuit workouts other days. But intermittent fasting works better for me if I eat between 2 PM and 10 PM - better self control.

Are you able to work out without food in the morning?

Or should I move workouts to the evening in the feeding period?

Posted by: Steve Pierson at February 19, 2017 02:44 PM (83iHI)

391 Working out in the AM is fine on an empty stomach. Some would say preferable.

Posted by: moviegique at February 20, 2017 03:16 AM (CcUfv)

392 Biochemist/pharmacologist here. #389 is correct. I assume we're talking type 2 diabetes here, a.k.a. insulin-resistant diabetes. What is resistant to insulin is insulin receptors on the cell surface. Normally when we eat, glucose levels rise, insulin is released into the bloodstream, and then insulin docks with insulin receptors, which then allows cellular glucose uptake from the blood.

In type 2 diabetics, there are many fewer insulin receptors on the cell surface than normal. In response to persistent high glucose levels, more insulin is released. But that doesn't increase cellular glucose uptake at all, because the few insulin receptors present on the cell surface are already occupied.

Result: the appearance of "resistance" to the massive amounts of insulin pumped into the bloodstream, which has less and less effect over time. And, simultaneously high insulin levels AND high glucose levels.

While I'm here, a suggestion: Ace, I luv ya. But please stick to what you know, and leave the crappy amateur broscience to the zillions of other ignorant health bloggers out there. Undermines your credibility about everything else and makes you seem like a douche. Just sayin. Hugz.

Posted by: lab rat at February 20, 2017 01:20 PM (hAbrX)

393 I should add, the reason type 2 diabetics feel tired and hungry much of the time is because their cells are perpetually glucose-deprived. With so few insulin receptors, not enough glucose makes it out of the bloodstream and into cells, where it is needed and used for energy.

Hence the feeling of fatigue; plus, the body mistakenly interprets "not enough cellular glucose" as "need to eat." So they eat a lot more than they need to, which is why they tend to be obese (but not always). You can see how obesity and diabetes can become a vicious cycle, with one exacerbating the other.

Posted by: lab rat at February 20, 2017 01:55 PM (hAbrX)

394 >>>While I'm here, a suggestion: Ace, I luv ya. But please stick to what you know, and leave the crappy amateur broscience to the zillions of other ignorant health bloggers out there. Undermines your credibility about everything else and makes you seem like a douche. Just sayin. Hugz.

can't, actually. I can't write a health thread while providing no content for that health thread. And I do have to write a health thread, not just for readers, but to educate myself and keep *myself* motivated to get and stay healthy.

I make mistakes, as I do when I write about any field, because I'm not an expert in anything at all. The only actual abilities I have a curiosity, occasional bouts of enthusiasm (which is useful in making people interested or curious), glibness and a desire to both relate what I've learned (or at least what I erroneously think I've learned) and in turn to learn from commenters, who have brought all sorts of interesting things to my attention.

I'm doing moviegique's broccoli sprouts kitchen-garden thing, for example. (Well, supplies are in the mail.) I take citrulline (and find it helpful for workouts) only because a commenter suggested it to me.

I will try to exercise more caution in making claims about science, and not rely (as I did here) on a general, gauzy kind of "this makes sense if you say it fast" kind of "understanding."

But to your main point, "only write about what you know:" No, sorry, have to ignore this advice. I don't know anything, and if I took this advice, I would write about exactly nothing.

Writing actually often is a learning experience -- you don't know what you know or *don't* know until you try to commit it to paper. If it's all just in a hazy fog of neurons in your head, you have a very weak understanding of things you know, things you think you maybe know, and things you simply don't know.

In this case, I thought I had read this before, and I made the mistake of not actually fact-checking to make sure I knew what I thought I knew.

Like I said, I'll try harder to do that kind of fact-checking on stuff were I'm kinda going by things I think I heard one guy say one time.

but the general thing about only writing what I "know"? No. there'd be no blog at all, and i'd actually know less than I know now.

Posted by: ace at February 20, 2017 02:08 PM (8rNrN)

395 Posted by: lab rat at February 20, 2017 01:55 PM (hAbrX)

Thanks for explaining that, despite high blood glucose, it's the glucose-deprived cells that make these individuals feel tired and hungry.

[I was also going to defend Ace's efforts here as a necessary learning experience, for him and the rest of us ... but I see he's already done that quite effectively himself.]

Posted by: ShainS at February 20, 2017 02:20 PM (mt8X9)

396 Writers write, you know. A writer's principle attribute is not that he is an expert. It's that he actually writes.

For many writers -- many, many writers; I would not be the first here -- there is a real Fake It Till You Make It thing going on. Half of this country's "foreign policy experts" in the media were just idiots attempting to write for free (ignorantly) about foreign policy until they complied enough "clips" (examples of published work) to get someone to hire them to write (ignorantly) for money.

There is, actually, a rule in writing. I don't want to celebrate this, but this is a fact of the business: A writer is supposed to do just enough research to write his piece and make his points in a way that will be supportable and not cause him embarrassment or professional harm.

To do more research than that is a type of procrastination many writers fall prey to -- "Let me just read one more thing so I can be authoritative and well-read on this" is actually a very enticing thing writers say to themselves to *avoid writing," which none of us want to do.

Now, I did drop the ball here because I did LESS than that minimum effective dose of research and I made two fairly big errors. So i did not in fact follow the rule of "know just enough to be able to speak without embarrassment on the limited topic at hand, then write and publish." I did less than was necessary.

But as a general rule, no matter what the topic -- this one, that one, the other one -- I'm always going to be well out of my depth. In matters of biochemistry, I will be a bluffing fool compared to an expert biochemist; in constitutional matters, a glib poseur compared to a genuine constitutional lawyer; in political tactics, a noisy amateur compared to a guy doing the job for a career.

But how could it be otherwise? Most experts are not writers (some are, most aren't) and most writers are, in turn, not experts. (Well, they claim to be, and have Bluff Credentials so that a cable tv news show can claim they're experts with a straight face, but they're not. Tim Ferriss explains in the Four Hour Workweek how to compile a fake expertise -- at least enough that the media will pretend to be expertise, if they want to book you to fill time-- in about four weeks.)

Anyway, this topic interests me a lot (obviously), and I just fine that making ERRORS, as embarrassing and amateurish as they may seem, is they way I actually learn.

The only effective way I found to learn to speak French was to go to conversational group and speak like a child, with lots of errors and bad conjugations and misplaced direct object pronouns, until I 1, improved, and 2, got over the sense of terror of attempting to do that which I was clearly not capable of doing.

But again, I will try to be more cautious and less glib. If any doctors want to offer their services to give these columns a quick fact-check before I pump them out to the world, I'd appreciate it.

Posted by: ace at February 20, 2017 02:20 PM (8rNrN)

397 Let me offer an anecdote I always thought was interesting:

Robert E Howard, creator of Conan, was writing for the pulps, which paid like 1-3 cents per word. Even in the Depression, this was small money. To make a living, he had to PRODUCE, and pump out a lot of words.

One of his favorite sorts of genres was historical action, kind of like Alexander Dumas' various historically-based action/adventure yarns.

There was a problem for Robert E. Howard: In order to give these history, real-world based yarns the necessary grounding and authority, he had to do copious research. If it took him, say, 20 hours to write a 5000 word story, it would take him 80 hours before writing it to get himself up to speed enough to be able to fake an authoritative expertise in, say, Bronze Age Ireland.

He realized he could never, ever possibly make money spending so much time on research, for which he wasn't compensated.

He was struck by a solution: If he created what he called an "artificial legendary," a MADE-UP WORLD with a made-up history and made-up cultures and made-up nations, he wouldn't have to do any research, because no one could say that "Stygians didn't wear that kind of helmet in battle, that was only for ornamental purposes in court," because Stygians didn't exist. He'd made them up.

And then he'd be free to pump out 5000 word stories in just 20 hours instead of 100 -- and at that rate of productive work, he *could* scratch a living. (Barely.)

And so he then set out to spend 10 hours or whatever creating the first "secondary world," the first fake fantasy world, of Hyboria, stringing together glib highlights of what he kinda remembered from history and mythology, raiding Bullfinch's Mythology for names for the different fake countries (China is called "Kitai" because he found "Kitai" as a historical name for an area of China, or something), and making up analogues for countries he thought it would be fun to set stories in (he invented the Batrchian Islands as a stand-in for the islands of the Caribbean, so he could set conan in pirate stories, when he liked.)

Anyway, the economics of writing, and the impossiblility of having a *real* expertise in any one subject (never mind MANY!), does impose certain realities-of-the-business on writers.

Posted by: ace at February 20, 2017 02:35 PM (8rNrN)

398 i reed wut you rite.

Posted by: Fox at February 20, 2017 02:36 PM (DVC2D)

399 Furthermore, ace, what you're trying to do is explain something very complicated in a way that =people=who=know=even=less=than=you can understand!

I write technical books and articles. I spend, literally, hundreds of hours on a short article and thousands on a book. I can only do this because I write about the thing I do for a living (programming computers). It is really, really hard, which is why technical books are often very, very bad.

The process of becoming an expert in something often robs a person of the ability to explain things to someone who ISN'T an expert. That's one reason why great experts can't write a basic tutorial for someone who knows nothing. The novice doesn't know what he doesn't know; the expert has forgotten what he used to not know.

That's a little hard to follow, I suppose. But what happens is the expert says something like "You've got to frabble your gromulator!" The beginner doesn't even know what a gromulator is much less how to frabble it. And there's often a dozen things he needs to know before he can even get to the gromulator.

So, yeah, Mistakes Will Be Made. I found the erroneous parts of the explanation a little fuzzy when reading it and the corrections helped. (I've been reading the same stuff Ace has, by-and-large, and I have a background in type 1 diabetes, but I don't know if it's been sticking as well for me as it has for him.) I think I have a little bit better grasp on it, but it's something I'll be revisiting over and over again until I really get it.

So, keep writing, keep correcting, and we'll all get a better grasp of things.

Posted by: moviegique at February 20, 2017 02:45 PM (CcUfv)

400 Can the saying, "Caveat Emptor" apply to anything we read? Obviously there is a point where we have to limit our fact-checking and just rely on the character and reliability of the writer. Ace is pretty reliable about owning up to mistakes and correcting them, as well as making certain that those corrections are visible. Actually, I think the blog in general has that going for it. Which I have always appreciated.

Speaking of science-y shit, it would be cool to see more posts that talk about science from the free market view that humanity isn't vermin requiring strict oversight and selective eradication.

Posted by: feynmangroupie at February 20, 2017 02:49 PM (eOgW6)

401 >>>
Speaking of science-y shit, it would be cool to see more posts that talk about science from the free market view that humanity isn't vermin requiring strict oversight and selective eradication.

great topic -- not sure how science enters into it though.

Posted by: ace at February 20, 2017 02:50 PM (8rNrN)

402 I get ya. Ace University. Your blog, your show. Just sayin, many of your readers ARE experts in certain subjects, such as medicine. Granted, there is often no consensus on the best way to treat a given condition, or even on the cause of a given condition. There is also wide disagreement about supplements, so it's become a more active field of research. But the disease mechanisms of Type 1 and Type 2 diabetes are well-characterized and pretty easy to understand.

If you need a technical advisor to fact-check anything for your health thread, I'd be happy to volunteer. There's a lot I don't know either, in which case I could at least point you in the right direction.

Posted by: lab rat at February 20, 2017 02:53 PM (hAbrX)

403 I have an issue with some of what's been stated here. I was recently diagnosed with Type 2 and standard reactive treatment is to shotgun me with insulin. In the hospital, 6 months ago, my A1C# was 9.6. So I got the insulin injection after every meal and the overnight slow-release injection every evening. The way it was explained to me at the time was that after years of high blood sugar levels, the pancreas kinda gives up on creating insulin, which is why you get the shots. Now, that doesn't mesh with what you are saying here, so I am a bit confused. If you are insulin rich even if resistant, why pump in more?
For what it's worth, Ace. I 18/6 daily fast and cut all carbs from my diet (and meat, my type 2 caused cardiovascular disease and gave me a heart attack). I have dropped 60 lbs and my A1C# was 6 at last visit. They stopped all of my shots. I really appreciate the bro-science you post because I'm adult enough to go read your source material and come to my own conclusion, with the oversight of my physician, of course. For what's t's worth, there is not as much settled science on Type 2 Diabetes as I was led to believe before. I've heard different things from my Primary care, my endocrinologist and my cardiologist. I'm glad people are still working on figuring it out. Either way, they all agree that what I'm doing is working.

Posted by: lordoftheSmith at February 20, 2017 03:07 PM (1nAjA)

404 labrat, well if you'd drop me an email or let me know how to contact you, i'd appreciate it.

I think I'll append a "WARNING: BROSCIENCE AHEAD" to each post, because seriously, this is all broscience. I trust most people get that, and even the whole "GAINZZZ" thing comes from the Hodge Twins who explicitly say they're all about bro-science, but it doesn't hurt to be explicit about it.

Lord of the Smith,

Congrats, and I'm glad you're doing better.

Posted by: ace at February 20, 2017 03:13 PM (8rNrN)

405 #403: type 2 diabetes is a condition that evolves over a period of many years. What I described occurs earlier in the disease process. Later, eventually, the pancreas does give up on creating insulin. But some IS necessary, which is the reason for the shots.

Sounds like you did everything right . . . awesome! Many people don't. Too many patients use the insulin shots (and other drugs) as a crutch to just keep on with same unhealthy lifestyle. IMO, intermittent fasting is a great way to get cells making insulin receptors again (i.e., cells recover their ability to respond to insulin, and are no longer "resistant"). That feeds back to the pancreas, which no longer has to crank out insulin at full tilt.

The body has an incredible ability to heal itself - if you give it the chance. Sounds like that's exactly what you did. Bravo!

Posted by: lab rat at February 20, 2017 03:31 PM (hAbrX)

406 Health science is still science or it would be called health philosophy

Posted by: Feynmangroupie at February 20, 2017 03:48 PM (eOgW6)

407 lab rat,

you're saying insulin resistance isn't receptors de-sensitizing to insulin, but rather receptors dying off, or not being replaced as old ones come to their end of service?

how/why does that happen?

Posted by: ace at February 20, 2017 03:49 PM (8rNrN)

408 are you talking about decreased beta cell mass on cells as people progress to diabetes?

is there a medical argument over whether insulin resistance is actually cell receptor de-sensitization or just fewer cell receptors, or is it that the first leads to the second (and the second causes diabetes 2 proper), or their relative importance is still a point of contention?

and again, is it know what causes cells to stop producing beta cells?

Posted by: ace at February 20, 2017 03:56 PM (8rNrN)

409 Getting something wrong isn't the problem. Everyone does that. The problem is a refusal to correct oneself, or add an update with corrections. This is the problem with the media; they hate to admit when they are wrong and hide their corrections in tiny type on the bottom of page E10 under the ads for shit delivery.

There's a larger issue. Progressivism is a form of totalitarianism -- the notion that government should manage the totality of each person's life. It only makes sense if the government doesn't make any mistakes, ever. Here, in the matter of diet, the government has made some big mistakes. The official dietary recommendations are wrong, based on the ideas that high-carb grazing diets are best, and that all calories are equal. Both of these are wrong. But to question that, to go against "the settled science" is heresy -- because it questions the notion that government can be trusted to get it all right.

Ace, keep doing what you do.

Posted by: The Atom Bomb of Loving Kindness at February 20, 2017 04:03 PM (8mYUr)

410 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/27577745

this article suggests than in a pre-diabetic state (insulin resistant but not yet diabetes), beta cell mass actually increases, and it's not until stage 3 of the 5 stage progression that beta cell mass begins to fall.

Posted by: ace at February 20, 2017 04:05 PM (8rNrN)

411 nvmd i see now that beta cells are the cells on the pancreas producing insulin, not the cell receptors.

you know i actually previously knew that, before i forgot it.

still looking for info on loss of insulin receptors now.

Posted by: ace at February 20, 2017 04:10 PM (8rNrN)

412 @394 actually dovetails nicely with what I said a couple of days ago, which I am too lazy to repost.

Posted by: BeckoningChasm at February 20, 2017 04:14 PM (MZcWR)

413 Does this all mean my favorite hangout has become a fake news site?

Kinda makes me feel all limp.

Posted by: Anthony Weiners Ghostly Schlong at February 20, 2017 04:19 PM (UaguQ)

414 If we waited to read only those writings submitted from no one other than "experts," whatever the hell that is, I can tell you we would read nothing and nothing worth reading would be produced b/c the "expert" would be constantly editing and re-editing so as to protect the precious "expert" label.

Posted by: MSTisdale at February 20, 2017 04:47 PM (g9d8D)

415 lab rat has shamed me into reading some actual non-pop-science about this stuff.

I'm reading this article, which seems like a good, not-terribly-inaccessible overview:

http://www.annualreviews.org/doi/pdf/10.1146/annurev.me.34.020183.001045

of course, when i finish, i will still not be an 'expert," just a guy who read an article.

still, it does seem like a good idea that if i'm writing on this at all, I should be reading real stuff about it. even the weightlifter gurus and bro-sciencers actually read and cite studies on pubmed. I don't know if they can actually evaluate those studies or tell the bullshit studies from the real ones, but they are, at least, going to source material.

Posted by: ace at February 20, 2017 04:49 PM (8rNrN)

416 #407: That's right. I keep putting "resistance" in quotes because it's
not that cells become resistant to insulin, like bacteria become
resistant to antibiotics.

On a macro level, insulin resistance
is how it appears, but resistance isn't an accurate way to describe the
mechanism. Zoom in, way down to the cellular level, and what's going on
is, the cells of a type 2 diabetic don't have nearly as many insulin
receptors as the cells of a healthy person.

Receptors are kind
of doors into cells. They need a key to be opened, and then they let
stuff in (or out) of the cell. Insulin receptors are doors and insulin
is the key that opens them. Then they let glucose into cells, which is
where glucose is converted into energy.

Like all receptors (doors), insulin
receptors are made in the cell's nucleus, then transported out to the
cell membrane. Many different feedback mechanisms tell the nucleus to
make more or less of this or that receptor.

Frequent/large
spikes of high blood glucose stimulate frequent/large releases of
insulin. When this happens too often, for too long, cells getting pinged
with more and more insulin tell the cell nucleus, we've got enough
insulin receptors, don't make any more (i.e., transcription is
downregulated). The more cells get pinged with too many keys, they
compensate by making fewer doors. (Incidentally, this is the same
mechanism that causes drug tolerance. It's why heroin addicts gradually
need more and more and more).

It's a feedback mechanism cells use to
preserve their own normal function (homeostasis). Cells interpret getting pinged with
too much insulin as something going wrong with the pancreas.

It's
a gradual process that takes a long time and a lot of abuse to come
about. But if it goes on for long enough, then the pancreas increases
insulin output even further. Fewer doors = less cellular glucose uptake =
more glucose left in the blood. The pancreas responds by
pumping out even more insulin. So like cells, the pancreas is also
trying to maintain homeostasis, but it doesn't know that the problem is
not enough receptors. After a very long time of trying and failing, it poops out.

Short story long, you're exactly right that
insulin "resistance" is a result of old insulin receptors not being
replaced due to homeostatic feedback mechanisms. Both cells and the
pancreas are responding correctly - but to the wrong problem.

Posted by: lab rat at February 20, 2017 04:51 PM (hAbrX)

417 #408: insulin receptors in type 2 diabetes work just fine. There just aren't enough of them. I'm not aware of any medical disagreement over this.

Pancreatic beta cells are the root problem in Type 1 diabetes, which is an autoimmune disease with an entirely distinct etiology and mechanism.

However, the article you reference in #410 is consistent with the pancreas working overtime to get blood glucose levels down (beta cell mass increases), then eventually pooping out (beta cell mass decreases), in the later stages of type 2 diabetes.

Posted by: lab rat at February 20, 2017 05:02 PM (hAbrX)

418 What's with all the multi syllable words? Can't we just talk lesbo pron instead?

Posted by: Anthony Weiners Ghostly Schlong at February 20, 2017 05:05 PM (UaguQ)

419 #418: LOL . . . are you my husband? Boy do I hear that all the time!

Posted by: lab rat at February 20, 2017 05:24 PM (hAbrX)

420 Ace : you are fine. Experts cannot write in simple and understandable terms as you (an inexpert) do. Bottomline - most so-called experts (doctors) recommend long-acting/short-acting insulin therapy to diabetics when it is clear that all it does is make the patient more and more insulin resistant (a heroin user needing more and more heroin!). As even lab-rat potentially admitted, you need to reset this .. and IF and LCHF diet is a proven way of doing that.

The more interesting question that needs to be asked is why are the doctors not embracing this? what "scientific" validation are they looking for? Why are their no systematic trials, when there is enough "anecdotal" evidence to justify testing this treatment approach in a double-blind, placebo controlled trial?

Posted by: A J at February 20, 2017 05:53 PM (idTjS)

421 #420: AJ, given where I work, the answer is obvious: MDs function primarily as the drug-dealing arm of big pharma, and there is no money to be made from healthy people, or from unpatentable diet regimens.

There are no clinical trials or systematic studies because (a) those are expensive and no one has an incentive to pay for them; and (b) the whole business model depends on keeping people sick. And confused.

Posted by: lab rat at February 20, 2017 06:07 PM (hAbrX)

422 #419 Huma is that you?

Posted by: Anthony Weiners Ghostly Schlong at February 20, 2017 06:17 PM (UaguQ)

423 lab rat - thanks and totally agree with you. I used to consult with pharma companies

I am a capitalist pig.. but I think this is one area where the market is not working. As any true economist will tell you, markets do fail .. and a case for state intervention (incentives, subsidies etc) can be made in specific situations. This is one - obesity, t2 diabetes are reaching epidemic level proportions and the entire ecosystem - ADA, food companies, drug companies, doctors - needs to be rebooted

Posted by: A J at February 20, 2017 06:25 PM (idTjS)

424 AJ, we have much to discuss. I'm a capitalist pig too. And from where I'm sitting, I'd say, the free market never had a chance to work. IMO, state interventions are what got us into this mess - specifically, decades of the FDA and USDA promoting and protecting the industries they are supposed to police and regulate. Just like the SEC does with the financial sector.

We've all been brainwashed to think that the mission of these experts and government agencies is to promote public health. Riiiiight. Just like Dems' sole concern is looking out for people's best interests. Just like the alleged purpose of Obamacare was to improve health care, when really the purpose was to destroy the health insurance industry, to force a government takeover. A single-payer system - socialized medicine - was going to be the only solution.

I agree that a total reboot is absolutely necessary. But individuals don't have to wait for that, to take charge of our own health, right now.

Posted by: lab rat at February 20, 2017 07:08 PM (hAbrX)

425 " But individuals don't have to wait for that, to take charge of our own health, right now. "
--
Amen!!

Posted by: A J at February 20, 2017 07:12 PM (idTjS)

426 Regarding your doctor's comment about obesity and fasting insulin, he's mostly right as far as it goes. "Pre-diabetes" (definitely not all obese much less overweight people) and diabetes does exhibit elevated fasting blood glucose. Fasting, as in, in the morning before breakfast. Now there is a whole sideline about diurnal variations in insulin and glucose and how this is related to night/sleep and the time around waking up that I won't go into.
But the key bit is that you were talking about "post-prandial" glucose, after a meal. For a normal person the post-prandial "excursion" (post- minus pre-) is not very large, say with a peak within an hour or 2 of about 40 mg/dL above pre-meal levels. The extent to which it goes up and back down, and the timing, can vary quite a bit both within and across individuals, and of course this is heavily influenced by meal size and macronutrient content (carb/protein/fat balance). Of course with more carbs, the excursion will tend to be greater.
And the idea you are referring to is "reactive hypoglycemia", essentially a too large "over-correction" in insulin clearing the post-meal peak glucose. This is definitely more common in people with obesity. But most people who feel sluggish etc are not experiencing true hypoglycemia -- their glucose levels may be quite normal or even elevated in this state. One factor may be the relative glucose level (it came down quickly from a peak but the actual current value is still normal). Another thing is that high glucose is also associated with sluggishness. But frankly being sleepy after a meal is fairly normal and is probably based on a lot of things.
(Note: I am not a physician, and further am not current with the literature.)

Posted by: C Brown at February 20, 2017 09:30 PM (gQ7Kn)

427 lab rat has kindly agreed to give some of my more sciencey posts a tech-check for accuracy so I don't pull any more boners like this again.*

* Yes I pull boners. So what. #MILO

Posted by: ace at February 20, 2017 09:58 PM (8rNrN)

428 I tell this story a lot, vis a vis "why don't doctors...?"

My oldest had seizures. (Also caused by a doctor but that's another story.) When I say she had seizures, I mean she had, literally, hundreds a day. She would, when going through a bad patch, would have several grand mals a day, dozens of drop seizures, and focal seizures every few seconds.

She was on drugs because that's what you do for seizures. But if the first drug doesn't work, there's actually a decreasing chance that any of the drugs will work, and she had gotten to the point where she would have all these aforementioned seizures while on all these terrible pharmaceuticals.

It was about then that we'd heard about The Charlie Foundation, which was founded by Jim Abrahams (the "Airplaine!"/"Police Squad!" guy) and his wife, when his son started having seizures. They had discovered that, prior to the drugs, a protocol for handling epilepsy had been derived from the Bible and it involved going to the desert, fasting and praying.

The form used in the early 20th century was an extreme ketogenic diet. 90% of calories would come from fat. We decided that we wanted to do this, because the drugs weren't working, and they were changing our daughter's personality. It was clear to us she was bound to die if she stayed on the path.

At the time, her doctor was this young man finishing out his internship at Children's Hospital. He was a really kind and gentle man, the sort of dedicated doctor who loved our daughter and who came in early to see her. He was, in essence, the archetype of a Good Doctor.

He was STRONGLY opposed to us doing the diet. Had we left it to him, had we left it to the hospital, had we left it to anyone (but the staff nutritionist who was kind of high on the prospect, as one might expect) other than our own pigheadedness, we never would've tried it. Keep in mind that we were all in agreement about one thing: The current course would lead to an early demise.

The hospital even sabotaged us, because we started the diet out with a hospital stay (as is recommended) and they gave our daughter a bag of glucose.

The hospital remained opposed. Within 3-4 months the seizures had completely stopped and we had (slowly and carefully) weaned her off the drugs.

Even then, the doctor was opposed to the diet. He was disappointed we had taken her off the drugs. The hospital never had more than a few kids on the diet (because they discouraged it).

There was nothing insincere about this doctor. He really had nothing but her best interests at heart. But even seeing, firsthand, a life saved did not change his mind.

And this is the story I always remember whenever a doctor says anything.

Posted by: moviegique at February 20, 2017 10:53 PM (CcUfv)

429 Since then, by the way, the Charlie Foundation has found uses for the ketogenic diet in treating Alzheimer's, Parkinson's, autism, etc.

Which dovetails pretty nicely with what Fung and Rhonda Patrick have to say.

Posted by: moviegique at February 20, 2017 10:55 PM (CcUfv)

430 moviegique - wow!!

Posted by: A J at February 20, 2017 11:41 PM (idTjS)

431 I'll tell you--it changes your outlook on the world.

She was my first kid, and I really got the sense that the world wasn't at all what it appeared to be. The elite may not be the vastly competent ubermensch society seems to need to believe them to be.

Posted by: moviegique at February 21, 2017 12:42 AM (CcUfv)

432 I know this is way down on this thread, so it probably won't be seen, in which case I will try again next Gainzz post, but question:

Is anyone else having very little success with IF? I was 197.8 on Jan 1. For all but about 3 days, I have fasted at least 16 hours (no bkfst or lunch), but usually more like 20 or 22. I am now fasting 22 hours per day (eat between 6 and 8 pm only) and going relatively low carb. I weighed in at 193.2 this morning, or 4.6 lbs in 7 weeks. The last two days I have fasted 22 hours and had no weight loss whatsoever. Any thoughts how this is possible?

Posted by: chris not rock at February 21, 2017 07:09 AM (WO0/g)

433 >>>
Is anyone else having very little success with IF? I was 197.8 on Jan 1. For all but about 3 days, I have fasted at least 16 hours (no bkfst or lunch), but usually more like 20 or 22. I am now fasting 22 hours per day (eat between 6 and 8 pm only) and going relatively low carb. I weighed in at 193.2 this morning, or 4.6 lbs in 7 weeks. The last two days I have fasted 22 hours and had no weight loss whatsoever. Any thoughts how this is possible?

First of all: Yeah, I've had long periods of no-weight-loss punctuated by occasional two week periods of good (but not great) weight loss.

Second: the 4.6 pounds in 7 weeks is slow but it is in fact losing weight. yeah, it's slow. But we do go through slow periods. The crappier part is no-loss periods, which happens a lot.

The no-weight-loss-in-2-days isn't even worth remarking on. You can't draw any conclusions from that. For one thing, your weight can be up or down by two pounds or so based only on whether you are well-hydrated or dehydrated.

Posted by: ace at February 21, 2017 12:51 PM (8rNrN)

434 >>>I have an issue with some of what's been stated here. I was recently diagnosed with Type 2 and standard reactive treatment is to shotgun me with insulin. In the hospital, 6 months ago, my A1C# was 9.6. So I got the insulin injection after every meal and the overnight slow-release injection every evening. The way it was explained to me at the time was that after years of high blood sugar levels, the pancreas kinda gives up on creating insulin, which is why you get the shots. Now, that doesn't mesh with what you are saying here, so I am a bit confused. If you are insulin rich even if resistant, why pump in more?

Doing some reading last night, it seems that when people get into actual diabetes, the beta cells in their pancreas which are supposed to create insulin begin degrading and stop being replaced, resulting in an acquired insulin deficit.

But how that happens apparently goes like this (and this is just something I read last night; I am not an expert):

First comes insulin resistance.

Then comes increased beta cell mass in the pancreas, as the pancreas struggles to pump out more insulin to overcome the cells' insulin resistance.

Then in stages 3 and 4 (as this article I read), beta cell mass becomes "unstable" and then begins declining rapidly.

I forget what 5 is -- it might be a stable level of very low beta cell mass (and hence very low insulin).

I try to warn people that I'm generally talking about people who could be called pre-diabetic or pre-pre-diabetic or not even diabetic, just fat, and that diabetics have to consult doctors about this for special guidance in their case.

This is a disease I just don't know much about (knock wood).

Posted by: ace at February 21, 2017 02:30 PM (8rNrN)

435 Thanks Ace. Yea, broscience and all, this is still very helpful both for the motivation and the information. Please keep it up.

Posted by: chris not rock at February 21, 2017 04:32 PM (pMznu)

436 Sounds like a good summary to me, ace.

I attended a lecture a few years ago in which an MD presented a very interesting correlation: the incidence of Type 2 diabetes began to skyrocket right around the same time (mid 1970s) more and more high fructose corn syrup (HFCS) started to enter the food supply as a cheap alternative to sugar. He overlaid the charts to show that Type 2 diabetes lags just a few years behind HFCS production, and parallels almost perfectly.

Where did all that HFCS come from all of a sudden? Surplus corn, which the US government was massively subsidizing, to produce more ethanol for fuel. Because what else was going on in the early 1970s? The Arab oil crisis. HFCS was a by-product of refining all that ethanol, for which the processed food industry quickly found a use.

And . . . here we are: fat, sick, undernourished, and overmedicated, while the drug industry profits from the law of unintended consequences. Infuriating, isn't it?

Posted by: lab rat at February 22, 2017 07:30 AM (hAbrX)

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