Trump: What I Meant Was, Only the <i>Top</i> Students Should Stay to Work on H1Bs

Trump: What I Meant Was, Only the Top Students Should Stay to Work on H1Bs

Remembering that part of Jeff Sessions' immigration reform plan.

Realizing how badly he screwed up Wednesday night in his immigration comments, Donald Trump engaged in damage control Thursday, both at a rally in Nevada and through an interview with Breitbart.
At the rally in Sparks, Nev., near Reno, he clarified that he wants only the top foreign students from only the top universities to be able to stay. "With the workers you’re taking about…" he told an audience member who asked about foreign workers imported on H-1B visas replacing Americans, "we have to make sure our people are working first. I don't mind taking people at all, but we have to make sure we need them, and we have to make sure that our people are taken care of."
He went into more detail with Breitbart, and was more strident. He denounced the practice of replacing Americans with H-1Bs (most notoriously by Disney), acknowledged that no tech labor shortage exists because we are producing more STEM graduates than STEM jobs, denounced Rubio’s I-Squared bill to triple H-1B admissions, called Rubio a "puppet" of Silicon Valley who is "incapable of telling the truth" and who "should be disqualified for dishonesty alone," adding that "Senator Rubio works for the lobbyists, not for Americans."

Comments

(Jump to bottom of comments)

1 I'm your puppet.

Posted by: Marco Rubio at October 30, 2015 04:30 PM (8ZskC)

2 Possible.

Posted by: HH at October 30, 2015 04:30 PM (DrCtv)

3 Krikorian wonders, as I do, whether Trump, sensing maybe he could
actually win, is going to begin casually walking back the issue set that
put him in first place to begin with.

Which is of course the one thing he could do to make his supporters abandon him.

Posted by: Methos at October 30, 2015 04:31 PM (ZbV+0)

4 I cannot believe I am saying anything nice about Trump, but good on him for pointing out that there is a STEM shortage is a lie.

No, there's a shortage of under 30 yos who will work 22 hours a day.

Posted by: alexthechick - Oh please intervene SMOD at October 30, 2015 04:31 PM (mf5HN)

5 Krikorian wonders, as I do, whether Trump, sensing maybe he could actually win, is going to begin casually walking back the issue set that put him in first place to begin with.

It is the GOP thing to do.

Posted by: rd at October 30, 2015 04:32 PM (bv//4)

6 If he does that, he shouldn't be surprised if he loses the support.

Posted by: Bruce Boehner at October 30, 2015 04:32 PM (E5UB0)

7 Vote for me you stupid rubes! I'm your better!

Posted by: El Jefe HEB Boosh at October 30, 2015 04:32 PM (awspb)

8 OH MY GOD I DINT THINK ID MAKE IT HERE

Posted by: Bigby's Pricking Thumbs at October 30, 2015 04:32 PM (3ZtZW)

9 CLASS E
*toooooT *

Posted by: weft cut-loop at October 30, 2015 04:32 PM (JmGFJ)

10 7th?

Posted by: Bruce Boehner at October 30, 2015 04:32 PM (E5UB0)

11 fck

Posted by: Bruce Boehner at October 30, 2015 04:33 PM (E5UB0)

12 If President Trump does anything during his term, if he limits spending in any way, cuts some program, then he's been more useful then the GOPe the last several years.

Posted by: Stateless Infidel at October 30, 2015 04:33 PM (AC0lD)

13 Not bothering me if he goes down in flames

Posted by: Skip at October 30, 2015 04:33 PM (gE2Li)

14 Which would be how it's normally done (tacking to the center after locking up the primaries), but it's pretty early for that and Der Donald isn't a typical candidate. He's playing with dynamite if that's what he is doing.

Posted by: Dack Thrombosis at October 30, 2015 04:33 PM (4ErVI)

15 Marco Rubio is a puppet and he never comes to work.

Posted by: El Gobernador Jeb Bush at October 30, 2015 04:34 PM (8ZskC)

16 I'm your puppet.

=====

Great. Now I've got Bananarama stuck in my head

Posted by: Bigby's Pricking Thumbs at October 30, 2015 04:35 PM (3ZtZW)

17 But what's his stance on common sense aerostat control?

Posted by: Bandersnatch, Opus/Bill the Cat 2016 at October 30, 2015 04:35 PM (JtwS4)

18 I like the Donald's attitude toward the MFM and the GOPe. Seems like he wants to burn them both to the ground. Not sure how I'd like him as President.

Posted by: Old Blue at October 30, 2015 04:36 PM (9iR5/)

19 But I could be a REAL BOY!

Posted by: Marco Rubinocchio at October 30, 2015 04:36 PM (8ZskC)

20 There is an actual advantage to these long, drawn-out campaigns. People can keep up a facade of lies for a few months. Truth slowly leaks out over time. Keep up the same set of lies over a year? Not gonna happen.

Posted by: rd at October 30, 2015 04:36 PM (bv//4)

21
Couric: What periodicals do you read everyday?
Trump: Make me a sammich.

Posted by: Toasted at October 30, 2015 04:37 PM (q4hvt)

22 Border control ... no amnesty, deportation if they don't return on their own (in a couple years), recognizing the crime and cost of the illegals (murders like Kate's) ... is what DIStinguished Trump.

If he yields on immigration it will be what EXtinguishes him.

NO citizenship for 30 million illegals. Stop the anchor baby insanity.

Posted by: Illiniwek at October 30, 2015 04:37 PM (1XT+t)

23 Prediction:

Poll numbers on Monday = SAME

Posted by: weft cut-loop at October 30, 2015 04:38 PM (JmGFJ)

24 If Trump wins the nom the narrative will be that once again the Tea Party ruined the Republicans chances.

Those crazy Tea Party nut jobs!

It's almost more advantageous for us in the long term (strategically) if Jeb gets nominated and loses to Hillary.

Posted by: Max Power at October 30, 2015 04:38 PM (q177U)

25 Kirkorkian? Sounds familiar. Have something to do with O.J., did he? Butch Jenner?

Posted by: Eromero at October 30, 2015 04:38 PM (b+df9)

26 Jebmentum, baby!

Catch it!

Posted by: Jeb! at October 30, 2015 04:38 PM (vsbNu)

27 Keep up the same set of lies over a year? Not gonna happen.
Posted by: rd at October 30, 2015 04:36 PM (bv//4)

Cough, cough

Posted by: Pig In A Pantsuit at October 30, 2015 04:39 PM (JOG+K)

28 Keep up the same set of lies over a year? Not gonna happen.

Only if you pick the wrong party!

Posted by: Hillary! at October 30, 2015 04:39 PM (kHgvV)

29 Poll numbers on Monday = SAME
--------
At this point in time it does seem like he's bulletproof. It's a very long way to the general election.

Posted by: Old Blue at October 30, 2015 04:39 PM (9iR5/)

30 I'm conflicted about this. It's hard for me to think about turning away the best and brightest, which certainly includes people willing to put in the effort it takes to get a PhD in a STEM field. They bring huge benefits to us as a country. OTOH, it's undeniable that the constant flood of foreign grad students holds down wages for STEM-inclined Americans, which means many of the smartest native-born don't go into STEM, but rather law, medicine, business, etc.

My career is almost over so it doesn't matter much for my situation, but it's hard for me to tell my daughters that STEM is a great way to go, except that I don't really know what else to recommend to them either. Medicine, law and business all are undergoing huge changes, and I suspect average wages will drop.

Posted by: pep at October 30, 2015 04:39 PM (LAe3v)

31 Jebmentum, making Ebola seem prosaic.

SMOD 2016.

Posted by: Anna Puma at October 30, 2015 04:39 PM (q/kuR)

32 "Krikorian wonders, as I do, whether Trump, sensing maybe he could actually win, is going to begin casually walking back the issue set that put him in first place to begin with."

Good lord, Trump is NOT walking back his immigration stance.

He's OVER if he does. He's not stupid.

Lot's of wishful thinking on the part of the "demise of Trump brigade."

Posted by: Misfortune & Pestilence at October 30, 2015 04:39 PM (OUjkK)

33 I really hope he doesn't walk it back.

Posted by: Lizzy at October 30, 2015 04:40 PM (NOIQH)

34 Heh, I just heard that the Dallas Stars trolled the visiting Vancouver Canucks by playing Nickleback during ever stoppage in play. It got so bad that Dallas's own fans were complaining, but the Stars won in OT so maybe it worked.

Posted by: logprof at October 30, 2015 04:40 PM (vsbNu)

35 If Trump wins the nom the narrative will be that once again the Tea Party ruined the Republicans chances.

So the people with enough clout to pick the party winner should be cast out?

Yeah, that's Stupid Party smart.

Posted by: Pappy O'Daniel at October 30, 2015 04:40 PM (oVJmc)

36 I don't think that's what Kirkorian wondered:

As he figured out quickly, backtracking on substance - especially on immigration, which is what shot him to the top in the first place - will end his candidacy in a heartbeat

No you RTFA I'm just here for the comments.

Posted by: DaveA at October 30, 2015 04:40 PM (DL2i+)

37 "But what's his stance on common sense aerostat control?"

68 degrees in the winter, 78 in the summer.

Oh wait, is the aerostat the thing that goes "Up"?

Posted by: Village Idiot's Apprentice at October 30, 2015 04:40 PM (VPLuQ)

38 So Trump is becoming a politician?

Posted by: Misanthropic Humanitarian, Model Citizen at October 30, 2015 04:40 PM (Oy0zJ)

39 We'd better dance, bitch.

Posted by: The One What Brung You at October 30, 2015 04:41 PM (8ZskC)

40 27
Keep up the same set of lies over a year? Not gonna happen.

Posted by: rd at October 30, 2015 04:36 PM (bv//4)

Cough, cough

Posted by: Pig In A Pantsui

No, she hasn't kept up the lies; they've been revealed for all the world to see. It's just that her supporters don't care.

Posted by: pep at October 30, 2015 04:41 PM (LAe3v)

41 So Trump wants to build a wall to keep Mexicans/Guatemalans/Colombians out while he builds a bridge to bring the Chinese/Indians/Pakistanis in?

Posted by: Lincolntf at October 30, 2015 04:41 PM (2cS/G)

42 I've seen nothing to indicate your planet is deserving of my sweet, fiery mercy.

Posted by: SMOD at October 30, 2015 04:41 PM (kHgvV)

43 Trump's already cut the size of his wall in half. This isn't dumb or wrong, but it sure ought to piss off those who support Trump because he's going to build this impregnable classy wall.

Maybe the Mexicans only agreed to pay for half a wall, which is more than I would have predicted.

Posted by: spongeworthy at October 30, 2015 04:42 PM (a6KhV)

44 Trump should try to walk back his incoherence.

Posted by: Beef Supreme at October 30, 2015 04:42 PM (c8V4N)

45 Oh wait, is the aerostat the thing that goes "Up"?
----------
According to the Rolling Stoned, I believe that would be a fully automatic derringer with a bayonet lug.

Posted by: Old Blue at October 30, 2015 04:42 PM (9iR5/)

46 Trump had this brilliant idea!

We train all these foreign students and then we kick them out? We should stop that! This is just another example of how dumb American Leaders are!

Trump shoots, Trump Scores!

It conflicts with the Immigration Platform I bought? (Trump to self: Details do matter! Oh Shit! Now what do I do?)

And Trump goes on the attack. Lots of good soundbites, and everyone ignores the original problem.

Posted by: rd at October 30, 2015 04:42 PM (bv//4)

47 Ah, that's it! He's wearing a waffle on his head. I knew it.

Posted by: Mike Hammer, etc., etc. at October 30, 2015 04:43 PM (9mTYi)

48 I'm stoically numbed at this point. If he stays the course, great. If not, there'd be no one to vote for, I'll start learning Russian.

Posted by: Bruce Boehner at October 30, 2015 04:43 PM (E5UB0)

49 Nickelback during every stoppage?

Does the Zamboni clean up frozen puke?

Posted by: Misanthropic Humanitarian, Model Citizen at October 30, 2015 04:44 PM (vL/IL)

50 re: 37 that's very dense moron memeage you have there. Impressive.

Posted by: Ghost of kari at October 30, 2015 04:44 PM (xuouz)

51 "According to the Rolling Stoned, I believe that would be a fully automatic derringer with a bayonet lug."

And a ~~twenty~~ fifty round clip.

Posted by: Village Idiot's Apprentice at October 30, 2015 04:44 PM (VPLuQ)

52 Krikorian wonders, as I do, whether Trump, sensing maybe he could actually win, is going to begin casually walking back the issue set that put him in first place to begin with.

-
And Kervorkian wonders whether his services aren't needed by Jebba the Bush.

Posted by: The Great White Snark at October 30, 2015 04:44 PM (XUKZU)

53 "Realizing how badly he screwed up Wednesday night in his immigration comments, Donald Trump engaged in damage control Thursday"

As noted previously, there is a certain number of times that any Republican candidate is able to get away with the act of walking back comments before the media begin to damagingly call attention to their incoherence and flip-flopping. That number is finite, and is not large.

Democrats may alter their own positions and prior statements as rapidly and blatantly as they see fit, and will get away with doing so, because the media ARE Democrats and will say nothing.

Posted by: torquewrench at October 30, 2015 04:44 PM (noWW6)

54 " Oh wait, is the aerostat the thing that goes "Up"?"

And away...

Posted by: HH at October 30, 2015 04:45 PM (DrCtv)

55 Here's the thing about Trump -- starting from the position he did was perhaps a little extreme. I don't mind my son, daughter, and eventually my grandchildren competing with the best and the brightest from other countries.

But the way the H1 system has been abused it wasn't a contest between the best and the brightest against the best and the brightest, it was, 'who will work for the least amount of money? '

Fuck that, and fuck Disney.

Posted by: se pa moron at October 30, 2015 04:45 PM (7v/r5)

56 I guess tapping one of the biggest buffoons in the land is one way to stick it to the GOPe.

Posted by: Beef Supreme at October 30, 2015 04:45 PM (c8V4N)

57 So its an Evil Black Aerostat with the thing that goes up and shoots 50 slugs of helium from a clip?

Posted by: Anna Puma at October 30, 2015 04:45 PM (q/kuR)

58 but it's hard for me to tell my daughters that STEM is a great way to go, except that I don't really know what else to recommend to them either. Medicine, law and business all are undergoing huge changes, and I suspect average wages will drop.

Posted by: pep

Two routes: skill trade or polysci.

Skill trade; they actually learn a trade that can't be easily out-sourced and is always in demand. Bonus if they start researching automation in said trade.

Polysci: sub public policy; just latch on to some techno-crat politician and ride his coat tails into a revolving career of government office and private law firms that sue the government.

Posted by: weft cut-loop at October 30, 2015 04:45 PM (JmGFJ)

59 Biebs walks off stage. At least he didn't say anything about "syrian" "refugees".

Posted by: Bruce Boehner at October 30, 2015 04:45 PM (E5UB0)

60 "Trump's already cut the size of his wall in half."

Trump haters gonna hate, misstate, and misconstrue.

Posted by: Misfortune & Pestilence at October 30, 2015 04:45 PM (OUjkK)

61 I saw Kasich being interviewed by Chris Matthews. Or at least I think I did, it may have been a split-second hallucination because I pushed the remote button before screaming.

Posted by: wth at October 30, 2015 04:45 PM (wAQA5)

62 Posted by: pep at October 30, 2015 04:39 PM (LAe3v)

"The [Indian] Post Doc makes less than you and is willing to work Saturdays."
--My lab manager to me.

In fairness I was willing to work Saturdays, but being hourly, it'd have been massive unauthorized overtime.
Setting that aside, the lab manager was on my side, merely warning me about why I was possibly staring down the barrel of a dead end career.
In some respects I was lucky, my boss paid for tech help that he felt was "beneath" MD students and post docs. That and tech workers are more drones than post-docs who ultimately want to publish something at some point. But my boss was old school, newer PIs were hiring exclusively post docs and no techs.

Posted by: tsrlbke PhD(c), rogue bioethicist at October 30, 2015 04:46 PM (tM4uk)

63 Looks like they finally got the guy setting the fires at all those St Louis black churches.

http://www.weaselzippers.us/?p=238159

Posted by: Village Idiot's Apprentice at October 30, 2015 04:46 PM (VPLuQ)

64 *pauses* Bumper sticker idea...

Bush/Kasich 2016 Y?

Posted by: Anna Puma at October 30, 2015 04:47 PM (q/kuR)

65 And Kervorkian wonders whether his services aren't needed by Jebba the Bush.Posted by: The Great White Snark at October 30, 2015 04:44 PM (XUKZU)

Nah, Jeb needs the services of Kevorkian.

Posted by: se pa moron at October 30, 2015 04:47 PM (7v/r5)

66 Good luck for the evening morons

Posted by: Ghost of kari at October 30, 2015 04:47 PM (xuouz)

67
61 I saw Kasich being interviewed by Chris Matthews.

I saw that (not) -- he was mumbling about his ex-girlfriend, Hashberry, IIRC

Posted by: Krebs v Carnot: Epic Battle of the Cycling Stars (TM) at October 30, 2015 04:47 PM (BK3ZS)

68 Meh, Trump was never serious on immigration. He talked brashly about immigration, as brash as he talks about everything else, mentioned in McCainesque fashion the "dang fence", and a lot of conservatives mistook this empty bravado for passionate dedication to principle. Trump noticed that it worked for his polls and stuck to it.

I have no doubt that the guy who is all about cutting deals, will sign immigration reform into law as soon as he doesnt need conservative voters anymore. And a lot of immigration hawks are in for a rude awakening when they realize how big the "big, fat door" in Trumps fence actually will be.

Posted by: The Nayden Broad at October 30, 2015 04:47 PM (ufFKE)

69 Trump haters gonna hate, misstate, and misconstrue.

Posted by: Misfortune Pestilence

How so? He said the wall is now 1000 miles long. The border with Mexico is much longer. Natural obstacles? Like what? Do you really think the coyotes can't cross a desert, river, or hills?

Posted by: pep at October 30, 2015 04:48 PM (LAe3v)

70 "So its an Evil Black Aerostat with the thing that goes up and shoots 50 slugs of helium from a clip?"

Well, technically, it was a white aerostat.

Which is why it came down out of the sky when the Officer ordered it to.

Posted by: Village Idiot's Apprentice at October 30, 2015 04:48 PM (VPLuQ)

71 If he does walk it back even a little he will die swift and silent just like Walker.

Posted by: brainpimp at October 30, 2015 04:48 PM (zosQc)

72 No, there's a shortage of under 30 yos who will work 22 12 hours a day.

Posted by: alexthechick - Oh please intervene SMOD

FIFY

Posted by: chiefjaybob at October 30, 2015 04:49 PM (cgH9o)

73 Rubio brings in Cuban slaves with his boat to mow his lawn.

Posted by: Yeb! at October 30, 2015 04:49 PM (QM5S2)

74 It seems like the longer the clown show perpetuates on the GOP stage, the less time and scrutiny are given to HRC.

The dems have figured this out fairly well.

Posted by: GBruno at October 30, 2015 04:49 PM (u49WF)

75

Eh, I believe Trump here.
He believes in excellence.
Top recruitment has always helped the country.

Illegal non-English speaking uneducated anti-American, non-conforming aliens will help destroy it.

Come in legal, or don't come at all. Bring in top notch, like everyone else does. Other countries followed our lead on this, then we dropped the bag, while they run with it.

Posted by: artisanal 'ette at October 30, 2015 04:49 PM (qCMvj)

76 National Review could get the NBC treatment and have their debate cancelled. Republicans in general are not thrilled with them either.

The rot started with McCain, then Romney and now anyone but Trump.

Why not let the people decide? Oh yeah, shamans gotta shaman for the little people.

Posted by: Decaf at October 30, 2015 04:49 PM (In6r6)

77 Ooohhh so shiny. Tonight on TCM is the 1942 Val Lewton Cat People.

Posted by: Anna Puma at October 30, 2015 04:50 PM (q/kuR)

78 Weft, interesting that you brought up skilled trade. Local news had a story on recently about the lack of skilled welders. They were doing a story on a local degreed woman who couldn't find work, so she went to welding school. School director was saying that he gets five requests a week for welders and can only fill one. Stated that a competent certified master welder can bring down a six figure salary in this economy.
I had also read that about a year ago. This may be just one of many examples for those kids who really have no business going to college and racking up a lot of student loan debt.

Posted by: Old Blue at October 30, 2015 04:50 PM (9iR5/)

79
Krikorian wonders, as I do, whether Trump, sensing maybe he could actually win, is going to begin casually walking back the issue set that put him in first place to begin with.
..........................

Then he is actually NOT going to win.

Posted by: wth at October 30, 2015 04:50 PM (wAQA5)

80 No, there's a shortage of under 30 yos who will work 22 6 hours a day.

Posted by: alexthechick - Oh please intervene SMOD

This might even be more accurate.......

Posted by: chiefjaybob at October 30, 2015 04:50 PM (cgH9o)

81 Jesus wants you to vote for me...and give medicaid to New Americans of Migrant Origins.

Posted by: John Kasich at October 30, 2015 04:50 PM (awspb)

82 No, there's a shortage of under 30 yos who will work more then 22 12 hours a ~~day~~ week.

Posted by: Village Idiot's Apprentice at October 30, 2015 04:51 PM (VPLuQ)

83 "and I suspect average wages will drop. "

Yeah, a swelling labor pool (immigrants) and higher overhead (taxes, regulations, Obamacare!1!) will do that.

Posted by: Apostate at October 30, 2015 04:51 PM (E+euT)

84 Rubio has Cuban hookers in his basement.

Posted by: Yeb! at October 30, 2015 04:51 PM (QM5S2)

85 "He said the wall is now 1000 miles long"

If he said it was going to be 999.9 miles long, you'd bitch.

"Natural obstacles?" Yeah. The physical wall is going to be constructed in a logical fashion. Go figure.

Posted by: Misfortune & Pestilence at October 30, 2015 04:51 PM (OUjkK)

86 Ooohhh so shiny. Tonight on TCM is the 1942 Val Lewton Cat People.

The Nastassja Kinski version was kind of a dog's breakfast but naked Nastassja Kinski makes up for a lot.

Posted by: Bandersnatch, Opus/Bill the Cat 2016 at October 30, 2015 04:51 PM (JtwS4)

87
No, there's a shortage of under 30 yos who will work

See Studies, Gender / Race / Womyn / and so forth...

Posted by: Krebs v Carnot: Epic Battle of the Cycling Stars (TM) at October 30, 2015 04:52 PM (BK3ZS)

88 Well, he is hitting Disney on its shameful H1-B hires, which is good.

Fire all those people and hire back the Americans you replaced.

Posted by: Bevel Lemelisk at October 30, 2015 04:52 PM (FbUrh)

89 New Americans of Migrant Origins.
Posted by: John Kasich at October 30, 2015 04:50 PM (awspb)

Jesus wept
Posted by: Things Jesus did

Posted by: Misanthropic Humanitarian, Model Citizen at October 30, 2015 04:52 PM (2zd9l)

90 77 Ooohhh so shiny. Tonight on TCM is the 1942 Val Lewton Cat People.
Posted by: Anna Puma at October 30, 2015 04:50 PM (q/kuR)
=======

I remember ditching HS to sneak downtown to see that in a revival house. Natasha Kinski was in the remake. And as lovely as she is, I prefered the original.

Posted by: Bruce With a Wang! at October 30, 2015 04:53 PM (iQIUe)

91 85
"He said the wall is now 1000 miles long"

If he said it was going to be 999.9 miles long, you'd bitch.

"Natural obstacles?" Yeah. The physical wall is going to be constructed in a logical fashion. Go figure.

Posted by: Misfortune Pestilence

So then, no answer.

Posted by: pep at October 30, 2015 04:53 PM (LAe3v)

92 Sorry even that much nudity can't save that remake.

Posted by: Anna Puma at October 30, 2015 04:53 PM (q/kuR)

93 Do you really think the coyotes can't cross a desert,

Not without bleeding hearts putting up water stations.

100 miles across open desert, on foot, with no water would stop most every one.

Posted by: rickb223 at October 30, 2015 04:53 PM (xujhj)

94 "No, there's a shortage of under 30 yos who will work"

Try 28 hours thanks to Obamacare. Everyone is part time now so employers don't have to pay for health insurance.

Posted by: Misfortune & Pestilence at October 30, 2015 04:53 PM (OUjkK)

95 Rubio has Cuban hookers in his basement.
Posted by: Yeb!

That should give him a bump in the polls among the Horde.

Posted by: Prince Ludwig the #Problematic at October 30, 2015 04:53 PM (awspb)

96 The first sentence in the gray box is opinion.

It is there to affect how you read the rest of what is in the gray box.

Posted by: eman at October 30, 2015 04:54 PM (MQEz6)

97 "Choose the form of the Destroyer."

http://www.ufunk.net/insolite/30-facons-de-mourir-electrocute/

Posted by: Anna Puma at October 30, 2015 04:54 PM (q/kuR)

98 What's hard to understand here?

You want the best people working here. The highest skill level H-1B allows companies to recruit them, to augment the workforce, at a commensurate pay scale.

You don't want to use H-1B to replace lower skilled US workers because the lower skill level 1 H-1B pay scale is lower than hiring an American worker. You have to raise the level 1 and level 2 pay scales to be higher than the American worker level.

Higher level hires are similar to a sport team's hires. Teams recruit the best athletes foreign or domestic. Those athletes augment the team's performance.

Sport's teams don't replace all the baseline players with foreign ones who would play for less money because their performance would suffer and it would be obvious.

Unfortunately, US companies replace lower skilled workers with lower cost ones without regard to performance.

Posted by: Jack Long at October 30, 2015 04:55 PM (nuaXB)

99 "So then, no answer."

Ok, post both quotes by Trump on the actual length of the wall.

Posted by: Misfortune & Pestilence at October 30, 2015 04:55 PM (OUjkK)

100 Not without bleeding hearts putting up water stations.

100 miles across open desert, on foot, with no water would stop most every one.

Posted by: rickb223

I've heard that there is no place in America that's more than 20 miles from a road. If that's true, all the coyotes have to do is have a confederate with a car on the American side. I suspect that's mostly what they do now.

Posted by: pep at October 30, 2015 04:55 PM (LAe3v)

101 Voy a ser el mejor presidente de la historia!

Posted by: Yeb! at October 30, 2015 04:55 PM (QM5S2)

102 Basement in Florida? Isn't that an in-ground pool?

Posted by: Misanthropic Humanitarian, Model Citizen at October 30, 2015 04:55 PM (8PcKC)

103 One major fact in the 30 year olds working is some large proportion of their wages get sent out of the country

Posted by: Skip at October 30, 2015 04:55 PM (gE2Li)

104 Yes, Ace, he will walk it back.

The dumb airhead hasn't a clue, really.

Posted by: the littl shyning man at October 30, 2015 04:56 PM (U6f54)

105 99
"So then, no answer."

Ok, post both quotes by Trump on the actual length of the wall.

Posted by: Misfortune Pestilence

He said it during the debate. Do your own work.

Posted by: pep at October 30, 2015 04:56 PM (LAe3v)

106 If he walks it back to any significant degree it will be fatal. He'll be open to being called "just another politician making promises he doesn't keep." Most of his mojo comes from not being that guy.

Posted by: SocietyIs2Blame at October 30, 2015 04:56 PM (RtG9B)

107 Seems to Me Trump just pretty much says whatever He wants... Don't think He thinks sometimes before He speaks...

Posted by: donna at October 30, 2015 04:56 PM (/dSsq)

108 how is this walking back?

weeks ago Trump was telling that democratic activist hack with the Latino name that he'd *start* with felons, i.e. incrementally, and deport in targeted ways

it's a caricature that Trump is beating his chest and saying he'll deport Mexicans en masse

I believe Trump wants to attack this problem aggressively, and the best way to do that, politically and practically, is to get serious with the details and do it right

Posted by: Feh at October 30, 2015 04:56 PM (zDxsB)

109
..begin casually walking back the issue...
.........................
You've got one job, Mr. Trump.

Posted by: wth at October 30, 2015 04:56 PM (wAQA5)

110 "Well, he is hitting Disney on its shameful H1-B hires, which is good."

It's f'n awesome. Name a politician that would do that.

Posted by: Misfortune & Pestilence at October 30, 2015 04:57 PM (OUjkK)

111 Folks would not argue against building a wall if they thought a wall would not and could not work.

Posted by: eman at October 30, 2015 04:58 PM (MQEz6)

112 I believe Trump wants to attack this problem
aggressively, and the best way to do that, politically and practically,
is to get serious with the details and do it right

Posted by: Feh

I certainly agree with that.

Posted by: pep at October 30, 2015 04:58 PM (LAe3v)

113 "how is this walking back?"

Well, it's not but then there is a lot of misconstruing that's got to get done.

Posted by: Misfortune & Pestilence at October 30, 2015 04:59 PM (OUjkK)

114 Couric: What periodicals do you read everyday?
Trump: I read periodicals periodically, I read daily papers daily, and just what do you keep in your colon? Cause you have shit for brains.

Posted by: Brian Williams at October 30, 2015 04:59 PM (2eov2)

115 @48 Theres lots of other people to vote for, major parties like Libertarian and Constituition and lots of less well known parties, you just have to look. I think we'd all be better off if we stopped holding ourselves to the two parties, and if you can't find someone you like write someone in or just put fuck you all where the write in goes, Rs and Ds have had a stranglehold on power for a century now, time for some real change.

Posted by: All Teh Meh at October 30, 2015 04:59 PM (5LHtI)

116 Seems to Me Trump just pretty much says whatever He wants... Don't think He thinks sometimes before He speaks...

-----------

Part of his charm. The problem is you start speaking so much and you start contradicting yourself. Message discipline is an art that many candidates do not have.

Posted by: SH at October 30, 2015 04:59 PM (gmeXX)

117 " Yeah. The physical wall is going to be constructed in a logical fashion."

I noted that his new position was not wrong or dumb. Your response?

"Trump haters gonna hate, misstate, and misconstrue."

Pull it together, man!

Posted by: spongeworthy at October 30, 2015 05:00 PM (a6KhV)

118 @110 any fired ESPN employee who would run for office

Posted by: Misanthropic Humanitarian, Model Citizen at October 30, 2015 05:00 PM (s0Kry)

119 "He said it during the debate. Do your own work."

He said he's cutting the wall in half? Post his quote. You are the one who said he said it. Show me.

Posted by: Misfortune & Pestilence at October 30, 2015 05:00 PM (OUjkK)

120 Cool, one of the Great White Sharks I track, Mary Lee, a 4,000 pound 16-footer, just "pinged" a few hundred yards off shore of the Cape Hatteras National Seashore.
Surfers, swimmers, waders, beware!!!

Posted by: Lincolntf at October 30, 2015 05:01 PM (2cS/G)

121
Part of his charm. The problem is you start speaking so much and you start contradicting yourself. Message discipline is an art that many candidates do not have.
Posted by: SH

Most don't need to have it. The left has been great for this. Say one thing in front of one crowd, and the opposite in front of another. And the sins of omission of the MFM keep it running.

Posted by: Gold Hen at October 30, 2015 05:02 PM (326rv)

122 Dare I click on this link on YouTube?

Top 10 Best Religious Anime Ever.

Evangelion is probably in it.

Posted by: Anna Puma at October 30, 2015 05:02 PM (q/kuR)

123 "I believe Trump wants to attack this problem aggressively, and the best
way to do that, politically and practically, is to get serious with the
details and do it right"

That's how I see it at this point. I don't think these statements show he's flip-flopped or false-flagged. He said back in June or July that he'd have a big door in the wall, etc... At worst, he's for "enforcement first, reform later" - and he has more cred to date than the come-latelys who now claim that's been their position all along (e.g. Rubio). I don't think he's foolish enough to 180 on his main issue and amnesty's something he seems genuinely pissed off about.

Posted by: SocietyIs2Blame at October 30, 2015 05:02 PM (RtG9B)

124 I will vote for anyone who will beat the donks and who hates donks. So, Trump fits the bill.

Posted by: Bruce With a Wang! at October 30, 2015 05:02 PM (iQIUe)

125 77 Ooohhh so shiny. Tonight on TCM is the 1942 Val Lewton Cat People.

Haven't seen it, but I liked the remake with Malcolm McDowell.

Posted by: All Teh Meh at October 30, 2015 05:03 PM (5LHtI)

126 Most don't need to have it.

--------

I'd say the successful ones on the right have it. Say what you want about W, but he stayed on message in his campaigns.

Posted by: SH at October 30, 2015 05:03 PM (gmeXX)

127 My hesitation with him is that I dont want an Arnie redux.

Posted by: Bruce With a Wang! at October 30, 2015 05:03 PM (iQIUe)

128 Cool, one of the Great White Sharks I track, Mary Lee, a 4,000 pound 16-footer, just "pinged" a few hundred yards off shore of the Cape Hatteras National Seashore.
Surfers, swimmers, waders, beware!!!

You named....the shark........Mary Lee.

Is there an ex-wife in your past?

Posted by: Gold Hen at October 30, 2015 05:03 PM (326rv)

129 I just read the WH is trying to stop the release of e-mails between obama and Hillary!

Posted by: donna at October 30, 2015 05:03 PM (/dSsq)

130 Trump could say he was going to put up a 5,000 mile fence. Don't matter. The powers that be would never go for it

Posted by: Misanthropic Humanitarian, Model Citizen at October 30, 2015 05:04 PM (P4OkF)

131
I'd say the successful ones on the right have it. Say what you want about W, but he stayed on message in his campaigns.
Posted by: SH

Agreed. For the Right, it's essential.

Posted by: Gold Hen at October 30, 2015 05:05 PM (326rv)

132 He said he's cutting the wall in half? Post his quote. You are the one who said he said it. Show me.

Posted by: Misfortune Pestilence

He said it would be 1000 miles long, except where it isn't needed because of natural obstacles. Look up the transcript, or is that to much work?

Posted by: pep at October 30, 2015 05:05 PM (LAe3v)

133 "I like the Donald's attitude toward the MFM and the GOPe. Seems like he wants to burn them both to the ground. Not sure how I'd like him as President."

If those are to be his only accomplishments it would still be worth it. At this stage both of these are are th enemy.

The media have picked one side in politics and have no right to comment.

The GOPe have picked a their own group, the CoC, whom they wish to advantage at all costs.

Fire away.

Posted by: Decaf at October 30, 2015 05:05 PM (In6r6)

134 So what's the obsession with H1-B's? Do we have a problem with them committing crimes? Come here and work and create more jobs. Or don't some conservatives understand economics?

Posted by: WTP at October 30, 2015 05:05 PM (l2max)

135 I just read the WH is trying to stop the release of e-mails between obama and Hillary!

----------

Seems like a reasonable application of executive privilege.

Posted by: SH at October 30, 2015 05:05 PM (gmeXX)

136 Lewton's is far better because it relies more on creating a proper atmosphere for the psychological issues of Irina and her fear of being one of the cat people. Having next to no budget to make a movie also helps.

Posted by: Anna Puma at October 30, 2015 05:05 PM (q/kuR)

137 Top 10 Best Religious Anime Ever.

Evangelion is probably in it.

Posted by: Anna Puma

Evangelion is a singular product of nihilism.

Posted by: weft cut-loop at October 30, 2015 05:05 PM (JmGFJ)

138 Unfortunately, US companies replace lower skilled workers with lower cost ones without regard to performance.Posted by: Jack Long at October 30, 2015 04:55 PM (nuaXB

They also replace high skilled workers with lower cost ones without regard to performance. This is not new, by the way. I personally know it's been going on since before y2k.

So, if nothing else, Trump has brought a national disgrace to the front page.

There's a damn good reason why total Americans employed has retreated to such a point that we are back to pre-Reagan numbers. There is no damn good reason it should continue.

Posted by: se pa moron at October 30, 2015 05:05 PM (7v/r5)

139 "Folks would not argue against building a wall if they thought a wall would not and could not work. "

That's nonsense. Of course a wall will work as a wall, to keep people from crossing at a particular spot. But after studying economics and history for years (informally,) I have concluded that, if the money is here, people will get here come hell or high water.

The reason I am not advocating a wall as more than a very partial solution is because I don't think it will work and it lets the politicians point and say "Hey, we built your damn wall. We're done her."

Posted by: spongeworthy at October 30, 2015 05:06 PM (a6KhV)

140 The powers that be would never go for it

Posted by: Misanthropic Humanitarian, Model Citizen

If we're lucky, the powers that be will soon be the powers that were.

Posted by: pep at October 30, 2015 05:06 PM (LAe3v)

141 The Top Students don't need an H1-B visa.

They can get a O-1 visa, for which there is virtually no limit.

Posted by: James Carville at October 30, 2015 05:06 PM (e8kgV)

142 Every interview I've seen of Trump, he talked about a wall shorter than the actual border. It would not make sense to have it on 100% of the border.

I see no change to his position. None.

Posted by: Misfortune & Pestilence at October 30, 2015 05:07 PM (OUjkK)

143 Hitlery is a fucking drunk sadist that enjoys abusing the staff and steals the WH China. We don't want her.

Why is Trump so horrible? He is saying all the right things allbeit sloppily. He isn't a rehearsed, professional politician. He speaks adlib. A lot of the others are professional politicians and want to remain so for life and still keep making gaffes.

No one else says anything close to hardline as him.

Posted by: L, Elle at October 30, 2015 05:07 PM (2x3L+)

144 Nah, I didn't name her, the researchers did who caught and tagged her did, I just tag along online. ML and Katharine are my favorites, because they occasionally swim past "my" beach at Cape Cod.

Posted by: Lincolntf at October 30, 2015 05:08 PM (2cS/G)

145 I see no change to his position. None.

Posted by: Misfortune Pestilence

How much change do you see in John McCain's position?

Posted by: weft cut-loop at October 30, 2015 05:08 PM (JmGFJ)

146 Trump could say he was going to put up a 5,000 mile fence. Don't matter. The powers that be would never go for it

Pen and a phone.

Posted by: rickb223 at October 30, 2015 05:08 PM (xujhj)

147 Krikorian wonders, as I do, whether Trump, sensing maybe he could actually win, is going to begin casually walking back the issue set that put him in first place to begin with.

Damn, Ace, that is BS, that is not what Krikorian wrote. You should apologize to everyone for writing that sentence, especially Krikorian. You completely misrepresented him.

Krikorian was specifically referencing that Trump, sensing he can actually win, may have been trying to change his tone (braggadocio), but screwed up when speaking and made it sound more like a change in substance.

What you wrote also doesn't make a lick of sense because Trump has come out hard Thursday and Friday against the H1B because of his poor speaking Wednesday. There is no "casual walk back".

Posted by: Make America Great Again at October 30, 2015 05:08 PM (LXJ1e)

148 Well Evangelion is worse than just pedestrian nihilism. After all Shinji's mother gets absorbed by EVA-01 which he later pilots. And his father is banging a constant stream of 13 yr old Ayanami Rei clones.

Posted by: Anna Puma at October 30, 2015 05:08 PM (q/kuR)

149 The reason I am not advocating a wall as more than a
very partial solution is because I don't think it will work and it lets
the politicians point and say "Hey, we built your damn wall. We're done
her."

Posted by: spongeworthy

Build a wall, enforce the employment laws, E-Verify? It isn't an either / or, it's an all of the above.

Posted by: pep at October 30, 2015 05:08 PM (LAe3v)

150 O-1 Visa: Individuals with Extraordinary Ability or Achievement

H-1B Specialty Occupations, DOD Cooperative Research and Development Project Workers, and Fashion Models

Posted by: James Carville at October 30, 2015 05:08 PM (e8kgV)

151 I hear ya pep.

Posted by: Misanthropic Humanitarian, Model Citizen at October 30, 2015 05:09 PM (Oy0zJ)

152 "He said it would be 1000 miles long, except where it isn't needed because of natural obstacles. Look up the transcript, or is that to much work?"

Yeah, that's what he's said for months. He said on Jimmy Fallon's Tonight show months ago.

No change. But you got to get your digs in like he's suddenly changed his mind. Regardless of the truth.

Posted by: Misfortune & Pestilence at October 30, 2015 05:09 PM (OUjkK)

153 I really don't want a deal cutter in the White House.

Posted by: the littl shyning man at October 30, 2015 05:09 PM (U6f54)

154 I think those of You who think Trump is gonna be the second coming are going to be sorely disappointed ...

Posted by: donna at October 30, 2015 05:10 PM (/dSsq)

155 You see, this is what I hate about primaries - the internecine tribalism. The Trumpet/Trumper battle is like the Palinista/Palinoid battle, only less interesting.

Posted by: Merovign, Dark Lord of the Sith at October 30, 2015 05:10 PM (bLnSU)

156 E-Verify

-------

Why do we need to impose new laws on employers who are already required to verify that employees have the status to work here?

Posted by: SH at October 30, 2015 05:10 PM (gmeXX)

157 I read a lot of leftys who are some what sane but who are going to hold their noses and vote for Hillary which has made me lose all respect for them. Leftards keep on message.

Posted by: Bruce With a Wang! at October 30, 2015 05:10 PM (iQIUe)

158 Krikorian wonders, as I do, whether Trump, sensing maybe he could actually win, is going to begin casually walking back the issue set that put him in first place to begin with.

-------------------------------------

Damn, Ace, that is BS, that is not what Krikorian wrote. You should apologize to everyone for writing that sentence, especially Krikorian. You completely misrepresented him.

Krikorian was specifically referencing that Trump, sensing he can actually win, may have been trying to change his tone (braggadocio), but screwed up when speaking and made it sound more like a change in substance.

What you wrote also doesn't make a lick of sense because Trump has come out hard Thursday and Friday against the H1B because of his poor speaking Wednesday. There is no "casual walk back".

Posted by: Make America Great Again at October 30, 2015 05:10 PM (LXJ1e)

159 Krikorian wonders, as I do, whether Trump, sensing maybe he could actually win, is going to begin casually walking back the issue set that put him in first place to begin with.
Posted by: Ace at 04:29 PM

Why would you walk back what you said if what you said put you in the position to win it all in the first place?

Or am I missing something?

Posted by: J.J. Sefton at October 30, 2015 05:11 PM (uRmWf)

160 See WZ for pic of church arson suspect, a gangbanger covered in tats.

Posted by: The Great White Snark at October 30, 2015 05:11 PM (XUKZU)

161 Pen & phone? Executive Orders?

I don't see a white guy in the White House getting away with that.

Posted by: Misanthropic Humanitarian, Model Citizen at October 30, 2015 05:11 PM (P4OkF)

162
139 "Folks would not argue against building a wall if they thought a wall would not and could not work. "

That's nonsense. Of course a wall will work as a wall, to keep people from crossing at a particular spot. But after studying economics and history for years (informally,) I have concluded that, if the money is here, people will get here come hell or high water.

The reason I am not advocating a wall as more than a very partial solution is because I don't think it will work and it lets the politicians point and say "Hey, we built your damn wall. We're done her."
Posted by: spongeworthy at October 30, 2015 05:06 PM (a6KhV)

A wall will cause the rate of influx to drop dramatically.

It won't drop it to zero. It will drop it below the rate the bad guys want.

The wall is just one tool that is needed. Saying you want the wall built does not mean you think that is all that is needed.

Posted by: eman at October 30, 2015 05:12 PM (MQEz6)

163 "The reason I am not advocating a wall as more than a
very partial solution is because I don't think it will work and it lets the politicians point and say "Hey, we built your damn wall. We're done
her."

Except that Trump will be president for 4 or 8 years enforcing it.

Posted by: Misfortune & Pestilence at October 30, 2015 05:12 PM (OUjkK)

164 Perhaps Krikorian is trying that old Jedi mind-trick?

*waves to Merovign*

Posted by: Anna Puma at October 30, 2015 05:12 PM (q/kuR)

165 Hillary got shouted down by a group of BLM at a Black symposium....

Posted by: donna at October 30, 2015 05:12 PM (/dSsq)

166 Why would you walk back what you said if what you said put you in the position to win it all in the first place?

Or am I missing something?

Posted by: J.J. Sefton

Timing. He may be calculating that what could win him the nom, won't do as well in the general. He's got to figure out when to tack a bit to the center without losing the nom.

Posted by: pep at October 30, 2015 05:13 PM (LAe3v)

167 Why is Trump so horrible? He is saying all the right things allbeit sloppily. He isn't a rehearsed, professional politician. He speaks adlib. A lot of the others are professional politicians and want to remain so for life and still keep making gaffes.

No one else says anything close to hardline as him.
Posted by: L, Elle at October 30, 2015 05:07 PM (2x3L+)

YIKES! More Fascist Know-nothingism!!!!

Posted by: John Harwood, Pro Journalist and Your Intellectual Better at October 30, 2015 05:14 PM (8ZskC)

168 I think the tell will be who Trump picks as his VP.

I think it's going to be Cruz.

Trump/Cruz 2016 - America, FUCK YEAH!!

Donald Trump is going to be the GOP nominee, deal with it.

Posted by: Kreplach at October 30, 2015 05:14 PM (XfkLr)

169 I also don't think E-Verify works too well with off-the-books jobs. But I'm all for any and all efforts that actually stop people from breaking the law (short of violence).

But all this stuff is super expensive and I don't trust government to get it right. Frankly, the will isn't there. It has less to do with "cheap labor" than many think and more to do with being seen as humane and cosmopolitan.

Posted by: spongeworthy at October 30, 2015 05:14 PM (a6KhV)

170 It is 5:17PM Eastern. And in the TCM movie Crescendo the raven haired starved waif in the black under-garments just took her bra off.

Posted by: Anna Puma at October 30, 2015 05:14 PM (q/kuR)

171 Well Evangelion is worse than just pedestrian nihilism. After all Shinji's mother gets absorbed by EVA-01 which he later pilots. And his father is banging a constant stream of 13 yr old Ayanami Rei clones.

Posted by: Anna Puma

Which is probably why I stopped reading after the first 3 books.

Imma just going to reread mah Kindaichi Shonen no Jikenbo.

( oh, crap, that furigana is getting smaller and smaller... )

Posted by: weft cut-loop at October 30, 2015 05:14 PM (JmGFJ)

172 donna, did she back down and say only black lives matter and run off the stage like old man socialist?

Posted by: L, Elle at October 30, 2015 05:15 PM (2x3L+)

173 My ego knows no bounds!

Posted by: Brian Williams at October 30, 2015 05:15 PM (2eov2)

174 Come here and work and create more jobs. Or don't some conservatives understand economics?

Well fuck you very much also.

Posted by: DaveA at October 30, 2015 05:15 PM (DL2i+)

175 And last night's post on Trump was sorry too.

If Trump said he didn't disagree with Rubio about H1B visas, it was only because Rubio lied about his position of it needing to be reformed (when Rubio's own bill requires no such thing).

Posted by: Make America Great Again at October 30, 2015 05:15 PM (LXJ1e)

176 *waves to Anna*

12 days to Fallout 4.

Posted by: Merovign, Dark Lord of the Sith at October 30, 2015 05:15 PM (bLnSU)

177 172 donna, did she back down and say only black lives matter and run off the stage like old man socialist?

Don't know... I can't stand to hear Her voice...

Posted by: donna at October 30, 2015 05:15 PM (/dSsq)

178 Donald Trump is going to be the GOP nominee, deal with it.

-----

I'd say doubtful, but certainly possible. If he can get close to 40%, then I'll be impressed. Probably take some dropping out to test that number.

Posted by: SH at October 30, 2015 05:15 PM (gmeXX)

179 "What you wrote also doesn't make a lick of sense because Trump has come out hard Thursday and Friday against the H1B because of his poor speaking Wednesday. There is no "casual walk back".

Typical punditry.

Others have also made it seem like Trump has changed his stance on the physical wall. He's been saying the same thing for months and months but then how can they disparage him out making shit up?

Posted by: Misfortune & Pestilence at October 30, 2015 05:16 PM (OUjkK)

180 Index the H1B program to the unemployment rate. If the rate is 3% or less, allow 200K h1B a year. If it's 3-5%, it's 100K. If it's above 5%, it's 25K.

Not rocket science, but of course it's DC we're talking about which would over complicate a bill describing how to boil and egg.

Posted by: Bernie Sanders at October 30, 2015 05:16 PM (0LHZx)

181 Hillary got shouted down by a group of BLM at a Black symposium....
Posted by: donna
-------------------

*ponders*

Damn. In this case, I might be sympathetic with them.

Posted by: Mike Hammer, etc., etc. at October 30, 2015 05:16 PM (9mTYi)

182 "The left has been great for this. Say one thing in front of one crowd, and the opposite in front of another."

A cynical tactic cynically adopted by some on the alleged right.

The Rubio playbook: say one thing about amnesty in English-language interviews with the alphabet networks, then the next day say something completely different about amnesty in Spanish-language interviews with Univision and Telemundo.

Posted by: torquewrench at October 30, 2015 05:16 PM (noWW6)

183 Why even refer to it as a wall? We're talking about a fence. Most people with a lick of intelligence realize that a fence indicates, 'I own this, you don't. Turn around.'

The absence of a fence indicates, 'I don't care.'

Posted by: se pa moron at October 30, 2015 05:16 PM (7v/r5)

184 "Donald Trump is going to be the GOP nominee, deal with it."

Huh. I heard that "Hillary is going to be the Democratic nominee" all throughout 2007. But, she wasn't.

Weird.

Posted by: Apostate at October 30, 2015 05:16 PM (E+euT)

185 "Well fuck you very much also."

Is this the new civility? Or is this DaveA guy a known troll that hasn't gotten attention? don't hang out here that often, asking.

Posted by: WTP at October 30, 2015 05:17 PM (l2max)

186
Why would you walk back what you said if what you said put you in the position to win it all in the first place?

Or am I missing something?

Posted by: J.J. Sefton at October 30, 2015 05:11 PM (uRmWf)

----------------------

Your not missing anything. Ace misunderstood or misrepresented what Kirkorian wrote.

Posted by: Make America Great Again at October 30, 2015 05:17 PM (LXJ1e)

187 "Donald Trump is going to be the GOP nominee, deal with it."

I still think it will be Rubio...

Posted by: donna at October 30, 2015 05:17 PM (/dSsq)

188 May you have much joy unlocking achievements and killing things in Fallout Four.

The books? I barely survived the original TV series. o.O;;;

Posted by: Anna Puma at October 30, 2015 05:18 PM (q/kuR)

189 Jack Lang has it right, the regulation determining skilled immigration should stipulate higher pay for immigrants and then see how many companies will suddenly find there are enough skilled American workers for heir needs.

Posted by: Decaf at October 30, 2015 05:18 PM (In6r6)

190 "A wall will cause the rate of influx to drop dramatically. "

Why do you think this? Does water stop flowing because you drop a rock in its path? It flows around the rock, it finds another way. Many of these people have traveled through Central America and Mexico to get here. Do you really think diverting around a wall will be more than they're prepared to do?

Posted by: spongeworthy at October 30, 2015 05:18 PM (a6KhV)

191 I still think it will be Rubio...

-----------

That is who I would give the best odds to. Either way, I'm enjoying this election cycle more than the last.

Posted by: SH at October 30, 2015 05:18 PM (gmeXX)

192 But all this stuff is super expensive and I don't trust government to get it right.
-------------

This is about me, isn't it?

Posted by: The Blimp at October 30, 2015 05:18 PM (9mTYi)

193
Kuwait disqualified by Olympic Committee after denying Israeli delegate visa:

The IOC suspended Kuwait on Tuesday for the second time in five years over government interference in the country's Games committee.

Posted by: Bruce With a Wang! at October 30, 2015 05:18 PM (iQIUe)

194 Come here and work and create more jobs. Or don't some conservatives understand economics?

1. Bring in an immigrant to do the job that an American is doing, but at half the salary
2. ????
3. FULL EMPLOYMENT!!!

Posted by: Cicero (@cicero) at October 30, 2015 05:18 PM (8ZskC)

195 In many ways, the story of the blimp is the story of Obama.

Posted by: Mike Hammer, etc., etc. at October 30, 2015 05:19 PM (9mTYi)

196 And by the way H1B and allowing foreign students to stay once they graduate should be 2 separate issues.

If someone has an actual degree - ie from a real 4 year university, not some bullshit online degree or Devry or that kind of thing - and has a solid GPA, 3.5 or higher, then yeah let them stay. But that isn't an H1B. An H1B is a temporary 3 year visa. If the recent grad wants to stay, give him a green card. I'm fine with that. Again as long as it's a real degree from a real school.

Posted by: Bernie Sanders at October 30, 2015 05:19 PM (0LHZx)

197 In many ways, the story of the blimp is the story of Obama.

The hot air part...

Posted by: donna at October 30, 2015 05:19 PM (/dSsq)

198 May you have much joy unlocking achievements and killing things in Fallout Four.

Posted by: Anna Puma at October 30, 2015 05:18 PM (q/kuR)

I'm looking at it as training for the post-economic-collapse and post-nuclear-Iran world.

Posted by: Merovign, Dark Lord of the Sith at October 30, 2015 05:19 PM (bLnSU)

199 "Timing. He may be calculating that what could win him the nom, won't do as well in the general. He's got to figure out when to tack a bit to the center without losing the nom."

That's stupid. Over 60% of the American population hates illegal immigration and want it stopped and no amnesty.

Posted by: Misfortune & Pestilence at October 30, 2015 05:19 PM (OUjkK)

200 BLM is supposed to be this cycle's OWS.

Posted by: Pappy O'Daniel at October 30, 2015 05:20 PM (oVJmc)

201 Why even refer to it as a wall? We're talking about a fence. Most people with a lick of intelligence realize that a fence indicates, 'I own this, you don't. Turn around.

Heads on fence posts says that also.

Posted by: rickb223 at October 30, 2015 05:20 PM (xujhj)

202 If only we could trust the news media to report accurately what Trump said.

I tried to read the links to national review, but couldn't get past the assertions; trump is this, trump is that, trump is something else.

I no longer consider National Review to be a trustworthy source of information. Like all the other media outlets.

Posted by: Hayfield Volkovski at October 30, 2015 05:20 PM (lHQPZ)

203 Huh. I heard that "Hillary is going to be the Democratic nominee" all throughout 2007. But, she wasn't.

Weird.
Posted by: Apostate at October 30, 2015 05:16 PM (E+euT)

That was until BHO came on the scene.

But since everyone that is going to run is now out there, the comparison doesn't hold.

Posted by: Make America Great Again at October 30, 2015 05:20 PM (LXJ1e)

204 You know, I've had a grudging admiration for Trump for a long time, but now that he's pissing all the right people off, I have to say I might just have to start supporting him full-time. I wonder if he needs any shills around here?

Posted by: Snoodling World Champion 1997 at October 30, 2015 05:20 PM (k9qR4)

205 "1. Bring in an immigrant to do the job that an American is doing, but at half the salary
2. ????
3. FULL EMPLOYMENT!!!"

You're making the same sort of scab argument that the unions make. Jobs are not a sum constant anymore than wealth is. The H1-B thing is way overplayed in the IT world. There is a dearth of IT workers in many niches.

Posted by: WTP at October 30, 2015 05:20 PM (l2max)

206 Posted by: pep at October 30, 2015 04:39 PM (LAe3v)

I've been personally affected by the H1B crap....

HOWEVER...

If they come and get their education here? I have no problem allowing them to stay...

But I am competing with people with PHDs from Bumfuckistan.... and multiple professional credentials that can't be checked... (IT field). They take our jobs, and then can't DO them... because they are not qualified in the first place.

But they work so cheap, that the companies will not replace them....

Want to know why there are so many networks and servers being hacked???? In almost every case there were Foreign Born and Educated people involved... either through outsourcing, or through hiring them in....

Fact is, that when raised in another culture, your MORALS will be different...

Posted by: BB Wolf at October 30, 2015 05:21 PM (qh617)

207 170
It is 5:17PM Eastern. And in the TCM movie Crescendo the raven haired starved waif in the black under-garments just took her bra off.

Posted by: Anna Puma

I'm ashamed to say that I had to check, and the internet makes it easy. What an age we live in.

Anyway, meh.

Posted by: pep at October 30, 2015 05:21 PM (LAe3v)

208 If FO4 was $40 I'd buy it, straight out. But, sigh.

Why are the A level games still insisting on $60 as a release prices?

Posted by: weft cut-loop at October 30, 2015 05:21 PM (JmGFJ)

209 So what's the obsession with H1-B's?

It's with the practice of using them to short-circuit the labor market.

Posted by: Pappy O'Daniel at October 30, 2015 05:22 PM (oVJmc)

210 "Do you really think diverting around a wall will be more than they're prepared to do?"

A 1000 mile wall? Yes, yes I do. Your 'rock in a stream' analogy sucks, and totally fails to bring in the factors of 1) distance, 2) logistics, 3) time.

Every mile is more water, food, and time. Every bite of food and drink of water is more weight, which reduces range, increases cost, and adds time. Every hours of time a) makes them more likely to be found. and b) increases fatigue.

Think if water got tired, hungry, thirsty, and ran across a dam. Better representation.

Posted by: Apostate at October 30, 2015 05:22 PM (E+euT)

211 202 If only we could trust the news media to report accurately what Trump said.

I tried to read the links to national review, but couldn't get past the assertions; trump is this, trump is that, trump is something else.

I no longer consider National Review to be a trustworthy source of information. Like all the other media outlets.

Posted by: Hayfield Volkovski at October 30, 2015 05:20 PM (lHQPZ)

---------------------

I trust what Kirkorian is saying about Trump. I can guarantee you he doesn't want Trump to go wobbly on immigration. Now what people are saying Kirkorian is saying is another matter.

Posted by: Make America Great Again at October 30, 2015 05:22 PM (LXJ1e)

212 Why do you think this? Does water stop flowing
because you drop a rock in its path? It flows around the rock, it finds
another way. Many of these people have traveled through Central America
and Mexico to get here. Do you really think diverting around a wall will
be more than they're prepared to do?

Posted by: spongeworthy

We beg to differ.

Posted by: Israel at October 30, 2015 05:22 PM (LAe3v)

213 I've had to deal with these H1B people and with a couple of exceptions they've been a nightmare. As always you get what you pay for. Fire the American who is making $80K, replace him with Sanjeev at $30K...not only do you get 30% of the work done, that 30% is so shitty, you need someone else - usually an American - to come and clean up his shitty code.

I've seen it more times than I can count.

Posted by: Monsieur Mew Mew at October 30, 2015 05:22 PM (0LHZx)

214
190 "A wall will cause the rate of influx to drop dramatically. "

Why do you think this? Does water stop flowing because you drop a rock in its path? It flows around the rock, it finds another way. Many of these people have traveled through Central America and Mexico to get here. Do you really think diverting around a wall will be more than they're prepared to do?
Posted by: spongeworthy at October 30, 2015 05:18 PM (a6KhV)

Right now the last step of their journey is the easiest one.

Our job is to make that last step harder than all the other ones combined.

A wall forces the trespassers into lanes of entry that are easier to control. Easier because the natural terrain makes it so or easier because we know where they must cross.

It is really quite elementary and you have to work hard to not get it.

Posted by: eman at October 30, 2015 05:22 PM (MQEz6)

215 212
Why do you think this? Does water stop flowing

because you drop a rock in its path? It flows around the rock, it finds

another way. Many of these people have traveled through Central America

and Mexico to get here. Do you really think diverting around a wall will

be more than they're prepared to do?

Posted by: spongeworthy

We beg to differ.

Posted by: Israel

So do we.

Posted by: Hungary at October 30, 2015 05:23 PM (LAe3v)

216 Of course Merovign the ultimate buzz-kill for Fallout Four would be for the 300meter to 600meter asteroid to oh impact the Earth this weekend.

Posted by: Anna Puma at October 30, 2015 05:23 PM (q/kuR)

217 "It's with the practice of using them to short-circuit the labor market."

As I said above, depending on the niche, there are workers needed in tech. Americans don't want to do the jobs.

Posted by: WTP at October 30, 2015 05:23 PM (l2max)

218 "In many ways, the story of the blimp is the story of Obama."

What did Christie do wrong now?

Posted by: Village Idiot's Apprentice at October 30, 2015 05:23 PM (VPLuQ)

219 *ponders*

Damn. In this case, I might be sympathetic with them.
Posted by: Mike Hammer
---------------------------------------------------------------
Don't get too hasty. Rather, liken it to the Sunnis and Shiites killing each other off. Be glad it's happening, but there's nothing on either side that merits sympathy.

Posted by: Bruce Boehner at October 30, 2015 05:23 PM (E5UB0)

220 And in the TCM movie Crescendo the raven haired starved waif in the black under-garments just took her bra off.
Posted by: Anna Puma

And James Olson showed his bald spot.

Posted by: Bertram Cabot Jr. at October 30, 2015 05:23 PM (FkBIv)

221 I don't suppose anyone wants our opinion.

Posted by: East Germany at October 30, 2015 05:24 PM (LAe3v)

222 You're making the same sort of scab argument that the unions make. Jobs are not a sum constant anymore than wealth is. The H1-B thing is way overplayed in the IT world. There is a dearth of IT workers in many niches.
Posted by: WTP at October 30, 2015 05:20 PM (l2max)

___________

No there is not a death of workers. There is a dearth of workers - and here comes the key part - willing to work for a specified price. Increase that price and the shortage goes away. It's the same argument for farm work. Oh gee, no American wants to do the work. FALSE. No American wants to do the work for $5/hr. Pay them $15 or $20 an hour and you'll see plenty of American lining up to do "the work Americans won't do".

Posted by: Monsieur Mew Mew at October 30, 2015 05:24 PM (0LHZx)

223 "I've had to deal with these H1B people and with a couple of exceptions they've been a nightmare. As always you get what you pay for. Fire the American who is making $80K, replace him with Sanjeev at $30K...not only do you get 30% of the work done, that 30% is so shitty, you need someone else - usually an American - to come and clean up his shitty code. "

Completely agree. But then the company goes out of business and the idiots who made those decisions have exposed themselves as shitty managers. As long as there is demand for the labor, the workers will find jobs.

Posted by: WTP at October 30, 2015 05:25 PM (l2max)

224
You're making the same sort of scab argument that the unions make. Jobs are not a sum constant anymore than wealth is. The H1-B thing is way overplayed in the IT world. There is a dearth of IT workers in many niches.

Posted by: WTP at October 30, 2015 05:20 PM (l2max)

Horseshit....

IT wages have been stagnant, if not gone down, for the last 20 years.

If there was a lack of work force, supply and demand would have salaries INCREASING....

There are a very few niches that do have shortages... but instead of TRAINING people into those niches.... like we used to do... we now hire from outside.

And I say this as someone who has been in technology for 36 years... and used to TEACH Network Engineering.... (note, most of the US IT training companies folded... and the few remaining are much smaller than when I was teaching in the late 1990s and early 2000s).

Posted by: BB Wolf at October 30, 2015 05:25 PM (qh617)

225 189 Jack Lang has it right, the regulation determining skilled immigration should stipulate higher pay for immigrants and then see how many companies will suddenly find there are enough skilled American workers for heir needs.

Heh! Great idea! It will never ever happen.

Posted by: Puddleglum at October 30, 2015 05:25 PM (nNNi5)

226 East Germany had a wall to keep people in, a nation sized prison.

US needs walls to keep people out.

Slight difference. Unless you Snake Pliskin.

Posted by: Anna Puma at October 30, 2015 05:25 PM (q/kuR)

227 Does water stop flowing
because you drop a rock in its path? It flows around the rock, it finds
another way.

Yup, hundreds of thousands of drowned Dutch agree.

Posted by: Snoodling World Champion 1997 at October 30, 2015 05:25 PM (k9qR4)

228 Why are the A level games still insisting on $60 as a release prices?

Posted by: weft cut-loop at October 30, 2015 05:21 PM (JmGFJ)

A level game release prices in the 90s were $50-60.

Think about inflation, we are damned lucky they aren't $100 now.

Besides, I got 20% off by just doing a bit of shopping.

Posted by: Merovign, Dark Lord of the Sith at October 30, 2015 05:25 PM (bLnSU)

229 "No there is not a death of workers. There is a dearth of workers - and here comes the key part - willing to work for a specified price. "

Which is the same argument the unions use.

Posted by: WTP at October 30, 2015 05:26 PM (l2max)

230 As I said above, depending on the niche, there are workers needed in tech. Americans don't want to do the jobs.

It's worth considering if they aren't just making a rational economic decision given how their potential job market and earning potential looks as long as we're bringing it so many low cost foreigners.

Posted by: pep at October 30, 2015 05:26 PM (LAe3v)

231 Oh gee, no American wants to do the work. FALSE. No American wants to do the work for $5/hr. Pay them $15 or $20 an hour and you'll see plenty of American lining up to do "the work Americans won't do".

Posted by: Monsieur Mew Mew

wow, moo, you're almost close to a point there.

we're proud you come this far. *sniff*

Posted by: weft cut-loop at October 30, 2015 05:27 PM (JmGFJ)

232 Comments into the 200's?

Seems like a good time to admit some of my emails were secret and confidential at the time I sent them, and I knew it. Also, some were actually marked that way, notwithstanding what I said the other day (and every day for the last year). So, fuck you America! You may now return to Trumpery.

http://nyti.ms/1MncMgL

http://tws.io/20gHG4N

Posted by: Hillary at October 30, 2015 05:27 PM (TxJGV)

233 Completely agree. But then the company goes out of business and the idiots who made those decisions have exposed themselves as shitty managers. As long as there is demand for the labor, the workers will find jobs.
Posted by: WTP at October 30, 2015 05:25 PM (l2max)

_____

No the company doesn't go out of business. The companies I'm talking about are household names, billion dollar Fortune 500 type companies. The CIOs all know this is the end result but they don't give a fuck. They can save money today on labor costs, we'll worry about the impact tomorrow (when chances are I'm already out of here anyway).

Posted by: Monsieur Mew Mew at October 30, 2015 05:27 PM (0LHZx)

234 A lot of us are investing a Lot of Hope in a Trump Presidency.

Why is that?

Maybe because without Trump, we'd be left with JeB!, Kasich, Rubio?

And President Hillary! standing on a mound of dead Americans saying, "Bow before Me!"

Posted by: rd at October 30, 2015 05:28 PM (bv//4)

235 "Horseshit....

IT wages have been stagnant, if not gone down, for the last 20 years. "

Horseshit back. Lies, damned lies, and statistics. The market is the market. You either believe in it or you don't.

And again, what's up with the civility rule, Ace? Or is that just for regulars?

Posted by: WTP at October 30, 2015 05:28 PM (l2max)

236 Removing the incentives to come here will do more than a wall.

No jobs, no welfare, no school, no medical, no anchor babies.

Posted by: Pappy O'Daniel at October 30, 2015 05:28 PM (oVJmc)

237
Good feces make good neighbors.

Posted by: J.J. Sefton at October 30, 2015 05:28 PM (uRmWf)

238 Don't hang out here that often, asking.
Posted by: WTP at October 30, 2015 05:17 PM (l2max

You don't 'hang out here that often' yet you're asking if someone is a troll?

Look in the mirror.

Posted by: se pa moron at October 30, 2015 05:29 PM (7v/r5)

239 237

Good feces make good neighbors.

Posted by: J.J. Sefton

No shit.

Posted by: Hillary at October 30, 2015 05:29 PM (LAe3v)

240 No anchor babies and a 10% 'surcharge' on any wire transfer by an individual to a foreign country.

That would kill a lot of the incentives to break the law and invade the country.

Posted by: Anna Puma at October 30, 2015 05:29 PM (q/kuR)

241 166 Timing. He may be calculating that what could win him the nom, won't do as well in the general. He's got to figure out when to tack a bit to the center without losing the nom.
Posted by: pep at October 30, 2015 05:13 PM (LAe3v)

If history and reality teach us anything, it's that a move to the middle and the so-called "independents" is the surest way to lose an election.

Staying big, bold and ballsy makes for landslides.

Posted by: J.J. Sefton at October 30, 2015 05:30 PM (uRmWf)

242 "It's worth considering if they aren't just making a rational economic decision given how their potential job market and earning potential looks as long as we're bringing it so many low cost foreigners"

OK, then they go do something else that they would rather do for the price. Since when are you entitled to a job at a specific wage? This is leftist BS you've been suckered into. Look, I don't believe in open borders and I strongly advocate getting control of our immigration problem. But at the H1-B level, this is not a serious problem.

Posted by: WTP at October 30, 2015 05:30 PM (l2max)

243 There is a dearth of IT workers in many niches.

Yet there are many unemployed IT workers in many niches. Weird.

Posted by: Puddleglum at October 30, 2015 05:30 PM (nNNi5)

244 What he genius CIOs also don't seem to get is that there is no way to verify who someone from India is. All their resumes are made up as well as their education. Good luck checking up on them or getting a reference. I've see literally H1Bs show up for work their first day and have not even know what their job was supposed to be. And these were supposedly experts in the field .

Posted by: Monsieur Mew Mew at October 30, 2015 05:30 PM (0LHZx)

245 240
No anchor babies and a 10% 'surcharge' on any wire transfer by an individual to a foreign country.

That would kill a lot of the incentives to break the law and invade the country.

Posted by: Anna Puma

Great ideas. Combine them with a wall and we might just fix this problem.

Posted by: pep at October 30, 2015 05:30 PM (LAe3v)

246
NT fisherman Bill Scott was killed in 2014 when he was snatched from his boat by a 4.7m crocodile. A coronial inquest into his death has declared there is a growing crocodile danger in Australia.

As if the giant spiders werent enough to kill ya....

Posted by: Bruce With a Wang! at October 30, 2015 05:30 PM (iQIUe)

247 And again, what's up with the civility rule, Ace? Or is that just for regulars?

Posted by: WTP at October 30, 2015 05:28 PM (l2max)

Read it a few more times.

Posted by: Merovign, Dark Lord of the Sith at October 30, 2015 05:31 PM (bLnSU)

248 The hot air part...
Posted by: donna
--------------

Much, much more. Very expensive to taxpayers, failed to do it's job, and actually did damage.

Posted by: Mike Hammer, etc., etc. at October 30, 2015 05:31 PM (9mTYi)

249 This is why I don't trust Trump. He is a liberal. A Rudy Giuliani type liberal, but a liberal. Its obvious that unlike Obama, he actually loves America. But he doesn't seem to grasp what conservatism is beyond "low taxes and a kick-ass military". I don't get the sense of him being a man of principle like Cruz and I think Carson are. I can't get a sense of where Trump's bright lines are. Cruz in contrast is very clear. Even Rubio has more of an understanding of conservatism, although beyond love of country, I can't say he is a man of principle, although I love his aspirational view of the country and the passion with which he conveys that positive view. Sometimes I wish Cruz was more aspirational as well. Reagan grasped that.

Posted by: Iblis at October 30, 2015 05:32 PM (rP2JJ)

250 Staying big, bold and ballsy makes for landslides.

Posted by: J.J. Sefton

No argument from me.

Posted by: pep at October 30, 2015 05:32 PM (LAe3v)

251 225 189 Jack Lang has it right, the regulation determining skilled immigration should stipulate higher pay for immigrants and then see how many companies will suddenly find there are enough skilled American workers for heir needs.

Heh! Great idea! It will never ever happen.

Posted by: Puddleglum at October 30, 2015 05:25 PM

Tack on a $30,000 per year ICE Monotoring Fee on each H1B Visa to pay for administering the program and repatriation of those brought in illegally.

Posted by: rd at October 30, 2015 05:32 PM (bv//4)

252 A coronial inquest into his ...

-----------------

Wait, are you Japanese?

Posted by: Mike Hammer, etc., etc. at October 30, 2015 05:32 PM (9mTYi)

253 217 "It's with the practice of using them to short-circuit the labor market."

As I said above, depending on the niche, there are workers needed in tech. Americans don't want to do the jobs.
Posted by: WTP at October 30, 2015 05:23 PM (l2max)

-------------------------

Well, if its that important, the company ought to go to find the best and brightest underprivileged in US high schools and offer them a full ride scholarship to the best colleges in exchange for 10 years of employment.

In 4 years you got your employee.

Posted by: Make America Great Again at October 30, 2015 05:32 PM (LXJ1e)

254 "You don't 'hang out here that often' yet you're asking if someone is a troll?

Look in the mirror."

How am I a troll? I asked a legitimate question. I don't see the H1-B thing being a real immigration problem relative to the illegals. H1-B's are legal. Someone disagreeing with the majority does not make them a troll, it's the sort of thing that open ideas and free speech exist for.

Posted by: WTP at October 30, 2015 05:32 PM (l2max)

255 245 240
No anchor babies and a 10% 'surcharge' on any wire transfer by an individual to a foreign country.

That would kill a lot of the incentives to break the law and invade the country.

Posted by: Anna Puma

Great ideas. Combine them with a wall and we might just fix this problem.
Posted by: pep at October 30, 2015 05:30 PM (LAe3v)

And no public benefits for non-citizens. Then you get rid of the incentive to come in the first place.

Posted by: Iblis at October 30, 2015 05:33 PM (rP2JJ)

256
As I said above, depending on the niche, there are workers needed in tech. Americans don't want to do the jobs.

Posted by: WTP at October 30, 2015 05:23 PM (l2max)

If the stories of people training their replacements are true, that would put the lie to no workers for those positions.

Posted by: Pappy O'Daniel at October 30, 2015 05:33 PM (oVJmc)

257 A troll stomps in then wants Ace to invoke the 'civility rule'?

Brass balls.

Posted by: se pa moron at October 30, 2015 05:34 PM (7v/r5)

258 If Rubio is the nominee both Hillary and Sanders will carp on his youth, naïveté and closeness to the CoC. He will be branded a lackey of big business.

Never mind that Hillary will be happy to sell her favours to the highest bidder the media will help her as they helped Obama against Romney.

CoC wI'll be happy whether he wins or loses, it will be amnesty all around.

Posted by: Decaf at October 30, 2015 05:34 PM (In6r6)

259 "New Banning Policy: Stop with the Personal Attacks Based on Nothing More Than Disagreement With Someone's Position, or Your Ass Will be Permanently Banned"

Where did I make a personal attack? I'm on the recieving end of attacks. And believe me, I can attack back. I'm following the rules.

Posted by: WTP at October 30, 2015 05:34 PM (l2max)

260 Horseshit back. Lies, damned lies, and statistics. The market is the market. You either believe in it or you don't.

And again, what's up with the civility rule, Ace? Or is that just for regulars?

Posted by: WTP at October 30, 2015 05:28 PM (l2max)

The chivalry rule is about personal attacks...

Is saying something is horseshit a personal attack?

You are making assertions that are untrue... IT wages have not increased... and the market is NOT the market, when Government policies distort the US Employment pool...

Posted by: BB Wolf at October 30, 2015 05:35 PM (qh617)

261 Well, if its that important, the company ought to go to find the best and brightest underprivileged in US high schools and offer them a full ride scholarship to the best colleges in exchange for 10 years of employment.

In 4 years you got your employee.
Posted by: Make America Great Again at October 30, 2015 05:32 PM (LXJ1e)

_______

Yep. Or if it's an immediate need, find an IT worker in a related field and pay for 6 months of training in that super duper specialized skill they need to fill.

Oh and by the way, that super duper specialized skill....if there's a shortage in the US, there's an even bigger shortage of it in India. But the way Zuckerberg /Rubio make it seem is that everyone in India is a PhD in comp sci. They're not.

Posted by: Monsieur Mew Mew at October 30, 2015 05:35 PM (0LHZx)

262 I'm not saying that Trump didn't stumble on this at the debate BUT I think it's disingenuous of the National Review to call him out on this. They are Establishment and Establishment is pro-amnesty. So for them to say he "badly screwed up" is laughable.

And yes, Trump clarified. At least he doesn't want to increase H-1Bs by 300% (Cruz) or 500% (Rubio). Still, Coulter has the best take on these visas and since Trump has actually had Coulter open for him at an IA rally, I'm not worried about it.

Posted by: Aslan's Girl at October 30, 2015 05:35 PM (xetep)

263 "If the stories of people training their replacements are true, that would put the lie to no workers for those positions"

I've actually trained people for my position. Got laid off. Got a job for more money elsewhere.

Posted by: WTP at October 30, 2015 05:35 PM (l2max)

264 PRO TIP: Saying "that's the argument that unions use" doesn't make the argument fallacious. Unions can occasionally say things that actually contain a kernel of truth.

Posted by: Cicero (@cicero) at October 30, 2015 05:35 PM (8ZskC)

265 ook, I don't believe in open borders and I strongly advocate getting control of our immigration problem. But at the H1-B level, this is not a serious problem.

Posted by: WTP

The current H1B regime is a losing proposition, it lowers wages. Period. Every study shows that.

Posted by: weft cut-loop at October 30, 2015 05:35 PM (JmGFJ)

266 "Which is the same argument the unions use."

Unbelievable. Let's say we import some foreigner to replace you? We'll make you pay taxes for his extended family that comes with him too.

Posted by: Misfortune & Pestilence at October 30, 2015 05:36 PM (OUjkK)

267 No there is not a death of workers. There is a dearth of workers - and here comes the key part - willing to work for a specified price. Increase that price and the shortage goes away. It's the same argument for farm work. Oh gee, no American wants to do the work. FALSE. No American wants to do the work for $5/hr. Pay them $15 or $20 an hour and you'll see plenty of American lining up to do "the work Americans won't do".

Posted by: Monsieur Mew Mew at October 30, 2015 05:24 PM (0LHZx)

You know this makes sense. Please tell me this guy is sockpuppeting the real troll.

Posted by: rd at October 30, 2015 05:36 PM (bv//4)

268 "Is saying something is horseshit a personal attack? "

I was responding, and I should not have, to an immediate "horseshit" response to my reasonable post. Look in the mirror yourself.

Posted by: WTP at October 30, 2015 05:36 PM (l2max)

269 I just read the WH is trying to stop the release of e-mails between obama and Hillary!

Gee; What a surprise!/sarc.

Posted by: FenelonSpoke at October 30, 2015 05:37 PM (No/ki)

270 I love my ego, it's the best ego ever, and my hair ain't too bad either!

Posted by: Brian Williams at October 30, 2015 05:37 PM (2eov2)

271 Time for the commercial.

Please buy my book -
http://astore.amazon.com/aoshq-20/detail/B014BTSEYO

Posted by: Anna Puma at October 30, 2015 05:37 PM (q/kuR)

272 "Horseshit" can be a term of endearment.

Posted by: Cicero (@cicero) at October 30, 2015 05:37 PM (8ZskC)

273 WTP:

H1Bs in and of themselves aren't a bad thing. But the way they are used is nothing even close to what they're designed to do. When Disney fires 300 Americans and replaces them with 300 H1Bs, how in the world do you make the claim that there is a shortage of 300 people? But that is exactly what Disney is saying.

I mean come on.

Posted by: Monsieur Mew Mew at October 30, 2015 05:37 PM (0LHZx)

274 No there is not a death of workers. There is a dearth of workers -
and here comes the key part - willing to work for a specified price.
Increase that price and the shortage goes away.

This is what I keep saying. It's all about unbalancing the labor market.

Posted by: Pappy O'Daniel at October 30, 2015 05:37 PM (oVJmc)

275 You know this makes sense. Please tell me this guy is sockpuppeting the real troll.
Posted by: rd at October 30, 2015 05:36 PM (bv//4)

_________

Troll: someone who doesn't agree with me 100% of the time.

Posted by: Monsieur Mew Mew at October 30, 2015 05:38 PM (0LHZx)

276 "Unions can occasionally say things that actually contain a kernel of truth."

Agree. But not in this case. If the jobs don't exist here, just like income and taxes, they will move elsewhere and we will lose the money those workers spend on homes, restaurants, taxes, etc. etc. etc.

Posted by: WTP at October 30, 2015 05:38 PM (l2max)

277 Trump's initial statements about immigration were from the heart, IMO. It's what he believes. The website fleshes it out. I cannot believe that Trump did not review the policy positions before it was put up there. I do believe he became defensive and misspoke during the debate.

Posted by: despair at October 30, 2015 05:39 PM (VrdxH)

278 Julian: Guess what?
Cyrus: What?
Julian: This is my gun now, so fuck off!
Cyrus: No, you fuck off!
Julian: No, you fuck off!
Cyrus: No, you fuck off!
Ricky: Cyrus, you fuck off first and then we'll fuck off!
Bubbles: Ricky, just - everybody, we'll all fuck off at the same time. Calm down.
Ricky: I'm not fuckin' off.
Cyrus: Well, then I guess we're gonna fucking stand still, aren't we Ricky?
Ricky: Yeah, I know how to fix that.
Cyrus: How?
Ricky: Fuck off!

Posted by: Lincolntf at October 30, 2015 05:40 PM (2cS/G)

279 WTP, someone calling your argument horseshit is not a personal attack, it's an attack on your argument, no matter how much your feathers are ruffled.

Also, you started the troll accusations.

If you're not trolling for a fight, then whatever it is you *are* doing, you're doing it wrong.

Horseshit is about as bland as seasoning gets around this place. If that's too much for you, you will have problems. Don't be a tourist, learn the local customs.

Posted by: Merovign, Dark Lord of the Sith at October 30, 2015 05:40 PM (bLnSU)

280 "Horseshit" can be a term of endearment.

But of course. Just like "fuckface", Fuckface. I keeeeed, I keeeed.

Posted by: WTP at October 30, 2015 05:41 PM (l2max)

281 For some stupid reason some seem to think that corporations should get to set immigration policies. It's insane.

American citizens are the ones who are suppose to have this power not the cheap labor express.

Posted by: Misfortune & Pestilence at October 30, 2015 05:41 PM (OUjkK)

282 "A wall forces the trespassers into lanes of entry that are easier to control."

Some of you say "They won't come" and others "They'll be easier to catch." Seems like everybody wishcasts of the wall their own expectations. That or they just say whatever fends off an attack from economics.

Israel is a tiny desert country and their walls do work fairly well. They also enforce their borders fiercely because people come through the border to kill them, not to mow their lawns. Which is why I don't think the Israeli wall comparison is apt--we don't have the will to brutally enforce our borders against yard guys.

But hey, what's $4 billion or so if it dissuades some percentage of Guatemalans from making the trip, right? Just stop acting like it's going to solve a damned thing.

Posted by: spongeworthy at October 30, 2015 05:41 PM (a6KhV)

283 The current H1B regime is a losing proposition, it lowers wages. Period. Every study shows that.
Posted by: weft cut-loop at October 30, 2015 05:35 PM (JmGFJ)

And when there's 94 million Americans (about 1/3 of the population) out of work or under-employed, the H1B regime seems even more foolish. Granted, you can't make a neurosurgeon or certain types of engineers out of that population. But the tech jobs the H1B regime is hurting can be filled here. Usually they either require experience, or an industry certificate that can be earned in a half a year or less.

Posted by: Iblis at October 30, 2015 05:42 PM (rP2JJ)

284 "When Disney fires 300 Americans and replaces them with 300 H1Bs, how in the world do you make the claim that there is a shortage of 300 people"

Because they get jobs elsewhere. I work near Disney. There's still a demand for workers here.

Posted by: WTP at October 30, 2015 05:42 PM (l2max)

285 Trump has actually had Coulter open for him at an IA rally

Sounds like one of those "I saw x open for y" memes.

Posted by: Bertram Cabot Jr. at October 30, 2015 05:42 PM (FkBIv)

286 Posted by: WTP at October 30, 2015 05:38 PM (l2max)

Really???? so a... oh... Network Engineer... who has to ... oh... work on a Doctors Network here in California because the DNS server dropped its network connection, and thus all internal Name resolution isn't happening... and you can't connect to it remotely...

Thus it has to worked on onsite, and in a hurry so those 5 Doctors can see patients...

That job would move to another country???

Note... this is what I did THIS MORNING....

Posted by: BB Wolf at October 30, 2015 05:43 PM (qh617)

287 "American citizens are the ones who are suppose to have this power not the cheap labor express. "

And I agree with this, but tying H1-B's with ILLEGAL immigration is a bad idea and very self-defeating.

Posted by: WTP at October 30, 2015 05:44 PM (l2max)

288 Posted by: Iblis at October 30, 2015 05:42 PM (rP2JJ)

Yep.... used to do IT training for a living... was a good gig....

Right up until most of the training companies went out of business... which happened right about the time the H1B Visas really got rolling...

Gee.... what a coincidence...

Posted by: BB Wolf at October 30, 2015 05:46 PM (qh617)

289 30% of US RN's come from out of the country.
Tech Industry has only DREAMED of those numbers. Why do you think nurse salaries haven't even gotten close to Software Developers.

H1B's a plague. We need to shut it down in medicine also. The hospitals make bank and hold salaries down.

Posted by: smileynh at October 30, 2015 05:46 PM (cwBD4)

290 "Note... this is what I did THIS MORNING..."

Well, good for you. But you and I both know that a good bit of that work could be done elsewhere. Not the physical part. But in the context, other network jobs would move and then where would you be? Fighting an even tighter labor market.

Posted by: WTP at October 30, 2015 05:46 PM (l2max)

291 Because they get jobs elsewhere. I work near Disney. There's still a demand for workers here.
Posted by: WTP at October 30, 2015 05:42 PM (l2max)

I don't think demand is the issue. Of course there's a demand, that's why they're bringing in the H1B guys. They're cheaper!
Now we also have a problem where our welfare benefits are too generous and actually cause a disincentive to work. But that's a slightly different problem.

Posted by: Iblis at October 30, 2015 05:47 PM (rP2JJ)

292 Israel is a tiny desert country and their walls do work fairly well. They also enforce their borders fiercely because people come through the border to kill them, not to mow their lawns.

Which is why I don't think the Israeli wall comparison is apt--we don't have the will to brutally enforce our borders against yard guys

Speak for yourself. Because not every illegal is a lawn guy.
You have MS-13, Mexican Mafia, and other assorted cartels. And your garden variety felon.

Posted by: rickb223 at October 30, 2015 05:47 PM (xujhj)

293 I thought the whole issue was illegal aliens and it was LaRaza confederates that confabulated it as always.... meh, whatever.

Posted by: Burnt Toast at October 30, 2015 05:47 PM (NaeCR)

294 "And I agree with this, but tying H1-B's with ILLEGAL immigration is a bad idea and very self-defeating."

Unemployed Americans disagree with you.

There is a racket going on. It's been documented time and time again.

Trump says he's going to use the force of his Justice Department to stop the scam. That's why he gets my vote.

Posted by: Misfortune & Pestilence at October 30, 2015 05:47 PM (OUjkK)

295 Thus it has to worked on onsite, and in a hurry so those 5 Doctors can see patients...

That job would move to another country???

Note... this is what I did THIS MORNING....

Posted by: BB Wolf at October 30, 2015 05:43 PM (qh617)

Heh, until the intertubes there was no medicine.

Posted by: Burnt Toast at October 30, 2015 05:49 PM (NaeCR)

296 I'm guessing more Americans are killed by illegal aliens who came in through Mexico than Israelis are killed by Palis who crossed into Israel. Like by a factor of 10, or 100, or a 1,000, depending on the year in question.

Posted by: Lincolntf at October 30, 2015 05:50 PM (2cS/G)

297 288 Posted by: Iblis at October 30, 2015 05:42 PM (rP2JJ)

Yep.... used to do IT training for a living... was a good gig....

Right up until most of the training companies went out of business... which happened right about the time the H1B Visas really got rolling...

Gee.... what a coincidence...
Posted by: BB Wolf at October 30, 2015 05:46 PM (qh617)
I work tech for a University, and I tell the kids, (and the smart ones already know) their bachelor's degree is worthless now. I tell 'em either go to grad school, or get an industry certificate. Industry knows those are still worth something.

Posted by: Iblis at October 30, 2015 05:50 PM (rP2JJ)

298 "Unemployed Americans disagree with you."

Not that this justifies my point but even if 100% of unemployed Americans agreed, that's still maybe 10-15% of the population. But those employed in those companies that remain in the US and all the people those companies support would have it in their economic interest to agree with me.

Posted by: WTP at October 30, 2015 05:51 PM (l2max)

299 Legal vs. illegal are two different issues.

How many we legals we let in is at least a question that can be debated and regulated. The will of the people can be represented.

But a de facto open borders policy is at the whim of unregulated and unaccountable non-citizens. That's not the way a representative republic is supposed to function, and it won't for long.

Posted by: Pappy O'Daniel at October 30, 2015 05:52 PM (oVJmc)

300 "Not that this justifies my point but even if 100% of unemployed Americans agreed, that's still maybe 10-15% of the population. But those employed in those companies that remain in the US and all the people those companies support would have it in their economic interest to agree with me."

No I don't think most employed Americans agree with you either.

Troll on.

Posted by: Misfortune & Pestilence at October 30, 2015 05:54 PM (OUjkK)

301 The market is the market. It's like people have been brainwashed to think that ALL Asians is SMART! and will take ALL our jobs. This is simply not true. And once they get here, they want the same thing everyone else wants. More money. I've seen it. Open a IT center in Hyderabad and pay low wages, two months later someone else does the same and hires away your workers until you pay them more, and the salaries continue to escalate until you're not getting the great deal on labor you thought you would get. Markets work both ways.

Posted by: WTP at October 30, 2015 05:54 PM (l2max)

302 And I agree with this, but tying H1-B's with ILLEGAL immigration is a bad idea and very self-defeating.
Posted by: WTP at October 30, 2015 05:44 PM (l2max)

Actually its good way to counter the "we have to do something comprehensive right now!" jackasses.
Then you can argue, yes, we do need reform. We need to repeal the 1965 Immigration Act. We need to control our borders. We need to reduce real unemployment, We need to stop deflating wages, and restore the middle class. Immigration both legal an illegal are being used to drive American wages down.
I think they said that real wages are actually lower than they were at the beginning of the 70s.

Posted by: Iblis at October 30, 2015 05:55 PM (rP2JJ)

303 The malarkey of "Americans won't do certain jobs we must import workers" must not stand. It is the cut in pay that is driving importation of workers.

For example, there is no shortage of American workers in oil fracking even though it is hard and dirty because it pays well.

Posted by: Decaf at October 30, 2015 05:55 PM (In6r6)

304 "How many we legals we let in is at least a question that can be debated and regulated. The will of the people can be represented.

But a de facto open borders policy is at the whim of unregulated and unaccountable non-citizens. That's not the way a representative republic is supposed to function, and it won't for long."

Completely 100% agree. So....?

Posted by: WTP at October 30, 2015 05:55 PM (l2max)

305 No anchor babies and a 10% 'surcharge' on any wire transfer by an individual to a foreign country.
That would kill a lot of the incentives to break the law and invade the country.
Posted by: Anna Puma at October 30, 2015 05:29 PM (q/kuR)
___________

Exactly this.

Posted by: mustbequantum at October 30, 2015 05:58 PM (MIKMs)

306 "Actually its good way to counter the "we have to do something comprehensive right now!" jackasses. "

Corporations do not exist to provide jobs to people. People have a responsibility to make themselves useful. They can do so for themselves or they can do so for a faceless corporation. You have a choice. This conservative bellyaching is embarassing.

Posted by: WTP at October 30, 2015 05:59 PM (l2max)

307 If you want to make sure companies are not replacing American workers with cheaper imports, change the cost of the H1B visa to a multiple of tens of thousands of dollars per year. Make it such that the more demand there is for H1B visa's the higher the cost each year. That way we will only be getting the best of the best to come into America that way.
Then use that money to pay for the enforcement of the rest of the immigration system.
We currently have about 1 million H1B visa holders in total in the USA. If you make the cost say $35,000 if the total number of H1B visas is less than 100,000, $40,000 if the total number is 100,000 to less than 200,000, $47,500 if the total is 200,000 to less than 300,000, $57,5000 for 300,000 to less than 400,000, $70,000 for 400,000 to less than 500,000 continuing until a H1B visa when there are 1 million asked for H1B visas equals $170,000, we would generate $170 billion a year in fees. And we would know for an absolute fact that those workers are having an employer pay out between $35,000 and $170,000 a year for their visa tells you they absolutely have to be producing more than the average American worker. Indicating that we very much would welcome them in.

Posted by: astonerii at October 30, 2015 06:02 PM (o/DjS)

308 Come here and work and create more jobs.
That's just wrong.
Or don't some conservatives understand economics?
And that's insulting.

So you've gotten about all the civility I have for anyone on this issue and now you're digging in.

I expect some serious comedy forthwith or it's ignore_user() time.

Posted by: DaveA at October 30, 2015 06:02 PM (DL2i+)

309 In 1996, the year I retired from the Navy... the average Network Engineer make $67K a year...

In 2015 they make.... $67K a year...

That is with an aggregate inflation of 51% during that 19 year span....

So they should be averaging $101K if they had kept up with inflation.

That does not show a 'worker shortage' to me.

Posted by: BB Wolf at October 30, 2015 06:02 PM (qh617)

310 Shame the corporation didn't have the legal department perform 'due diligence' on my last name and 'class action lawyers'.

Nothing. Random thoughts.

Posted by: se pa moron at October 30, 2015 06:04 PM (7v/r5)

311 "In 1996, the year I retired from the Navy... the average Network Engineer make $67K a year...

In 2015 they make.... $67K a year... "

And what did a dual-core processor computer cost you in 1996 vs. 2015?

Posted by: WTP at October 30, 2015 06:04 PM (l2max)

312 "Corporations do not exist to provide jobs to people. People have a responsibility to make themselves useful."

This is bullshit.

These corporations are SETTING immigration laws. Usurping the power away from American citizens.

They are literally and figuratively stealing from Americans.

They have no right to abuse the system. It's a giant scam not a free market.

Posted by: Misfortune & Pestilence at October 30, 2015 06:05 PM (OUjkK)

313 301
The market is the market. It's like people have been brainwashed to
think that ALL Asians is SMART! and will take ALL our jobs. This is
simply not true. And once they get here, they want the same thing
everyone else wants. More money. I've seen it. Open a IT center in
Hyderabad and pay low wages, two months later someone else does the same
and hires away your workers until you pay them more, and the salaries
continue to escalate until you're not getting the great deal on labor
you thought you would get. Markets work both ways.
Hmmm, but with the open borders policy we have, they just import more and more cheap workers to compete against, and wages do not rise.
If we have control of the borders and a reasonable limit on the number of foreign workers, you would be right, but with open borders, billions of third world socialists make your argument a moot point.

Posted by: astonerii at October 30, 2015 06:06 PM (o/DjS)

314 "Or don't some conservatives understand economics?
And that's insulting"

I thought being easily offended was a lefty fault. There is nothing I've stated here that runs counter to what many conservative (re legitimate) economists would agree with.

Posted by: WTP at October 30, 2015 06:07 PM (l2max)

315 Heh, until the intertubes there was no medicine.

Posted by: Burnt Toast at October 30, 2015 05:49 PM (NaeCR)

Yup... but you can thank the Government for forcing all the doctors to go to Electronic Medical records... even though they WON'T give us a standard format to put said records in, so we still can't really take our Electronic Med record from one doctor to another...

We've been trying to get them to do it for 20 years....

Posted by: BB Wolf at October 30, 2015 06:07 PM (qh617)

316 Corporations do not exist to provide jobs to people. People have a responsibility to make themselves useful. They can do so for themselves or they can do so for a faceless corporation. You have a choice. This conservative bellyaching is embarassing.
Posted by: WTP at October 30, 2015 05:59 PM (l2max)

Didn't argue that. But a Country has a duty to ensure that its citizens' needs are met first.

Posted by: Iblis at October 30, 2015 06:07 PM (rP2JJ)

317 And what did a dual-core processor computer cost you in 1996 vs. 2015?

Posted by: WTP at October 30, 2015 06:04 PM (l2max)

Immaterial... straw man argument...

We are talking about the US cost of Labor...

Posted by: BB Wolf at October 30, 2015 06:08 PM (qh617)

318 I've actually trained people for my position. Got laid off. Got a job for more money elsewhere.

And I've actually done the job with the medium old tech that kept the company going for 5+ years instead of getting trained in the new stuff and been left beached on the trailing edge when the company went tits up. Meanwhile the Brit that did one project well in new stuff did the new job elsewhere for more $ bit and who knows where the Bengali screwup went.

This was in Jersey - Fuck You is hello.

Posted by: DaveA at October 30, 2015 06:09 PM (DL2i+)

319 Every immigration system controlled by government, including H1B, is designed to pick winners and losers, it's as anithetical to the free market as it can possibly be, a true free market would take government out of the equation entirely, anything less is just cronyism.

Posted by: All Teh Meh at October 30, 2015 06:09 PM (5LHtI)

320 ""Corporations do not exist to provide jobs to people. People have a responsibility to make themselves useful."

This is bullshit.

These corporations are SETTING immigration laws. Usurping the power away from American citizens.
"

My statement and your statement have nothing to do with each other. I said corporations do not exist for the purpose of giving people jobs. You can argue about their influence on immigration laws but that's irrelevant to my point.

Posted by: WTP at October 30, 2015 06:10 PM (l2max)

321 319
Every immigration system controlled by government, including H1B, is
designed to pick winners and losers, it's as anithetical to the free
market as it can possibly be, a true free market would take government
out of the equation entirely, anything less is just cronyism.

Well, that is just stupid. Immigration without government control? HAH HAH HAH HAH HAH. Seriously?

Posted by: astonerii at October 30, 2015 06:12 PM (o/DjS)

322 "getting trained in the new stuff and been left beached on the trailing edge when the company went tits up."

Been there myself as well. IT is a tough business. Younger people come in with training in all the new stuff and do the same thing. IT professionals will tell you that you have a responsibility to remain current on technologies. I started on COBOL systems, doing Java and other crappy JSP and sh*t I don't care for but that's the market.

Posted by: WTP at October 30, 2015 06:13 PM (l2max)

323 why do I keep losing the italiacs?
this should be normal text.
This should be bold

Posted by: astonerii at October 30, 2015 06:13 PM (o/DjS)

324 "mmaterial... straw man argument...

We are talking about the US cost of Labor..."

Not it's not. It is very relevant. The goods and services you can buy today are lightyears ahead of even 10 years ago so govt statistics are very suspect. They take no account to the improvements in quality of goods, "improved" safety factors (many of which drive up the costs of goods for no good reason), etc.

Posted by: WTP at October 30, 2015 06:16 PM (l2max)

325 "My statement and your statement have nothing to do with each other. I said corporations do not exist for the purpose of giving people jobs. You can argue about their influence on immigration laws but that's irrelevant to my point."

Bullshit again. You keep ignoring the thievery these corporations are engaged in.

So you give post an obvious statement about corporations are not obligated to employ people. Gee, no shit Sherlock.

They are not engaging in a free market but rather a scam, a version of crony capitalism.

Posted by: Misfortune & Pestilence at October 30, 2015 06:16 PM (OUjkK)

326 There is nothing I've stated here that runs counter to what many conservative (re legitimate) economists would agree with.

It's nonsense, you're ignoring the various frictions involved, retraining, age, relocation and the fact that these imports aren't created by a free or equal market in their home country either.

Posted by: DaveA at October 30, 2015 06:17 PM (DL2i+)

327 The one issue we thought we could count on from Donald Trump.

Posted by: Coolio at October 30, 2015 06:19 PM (I4PQV)

328 "Bullshit again. You keep ignoring the thievery these corporations are engaged in. "

How does a corporation steal from you by laying you off in favor of someone else? That job does not belong to you, it belongs to the corporation.

Posted by: WTP at October 30, 2015 06:19 PM (l2max)

329 We're actually in a scenario now where someone from say India can come into this country, create a business, then 'game' the system to such an extent that no American ever gets hired. He makes millions, pays peanuts, makes sure to contribute to the 'right' people, and no harm, no foul.

I'm not so sure that's the way the game should be played.

Posted by: se pa moron at October 30, 2015 06:20 PM (7v/r5)

330 Well, that is just stupid. Immigration without government control? HAH HAH HAH HAH HAH. Seriously?

I'm not interested in living my life with politicians constantly tipping the scales against me.

Posted by: All Teh Meh at October 30, 2015 06:20 PM (5LHtI)

331 How does a corporation steal from you by laying you off in favor of someone else?

Yeah, we can be ripped off by a company, but not with anything to do with hiring and firing.

Posted by: Christopher Taylor at October 30, 2015 06:22 PM (39g3+)

332 "It's nonsense, you're ignoring the various frictions involved, retraining, age, relocation and the fact that these imports aren't created by a free or equal market in their home country either."

Oh, I agree there are frictions involved. Same thing is SUPPOSED to happen when stupid Wall Street banks do stupid things and are SUPPOSED to go belly-up. Creative distruction.

Posted by: WTP at October 30, 2015 06:23 PM (l2max)

333 330 I'm not interested in living my life with politicians constantly tipping the scales against me.

Interesting, because that is what politicians do. It is what we ask them to do. I was going to suggest you find an island somewhere to go live so you could live your dream in my last reply. But, I thought that was a bit much. Now I see that you really are that far overboard that that is about the only thing that would make you happy.

Pray tell what do you think the purpose of our government is if not to set the field rules we all use? I sure bet pedophiles wished the government was not stacking the deck against them. Murderers. Rapists. Embezzlers. Crooks and criminals of all sorts.

If you do not want them tipping the scales against you, then you need to create a majority position that tips the scales balanced.

But who am I kidding, this ship is going down regardless of what happens. I just hope the people who keep voting for the perversity of it all get exactly what they deserve when it goes down.

Posted by: astonerii at October 30, 2015 06:27 PM (o/DjS)

334 "How does a corporation steal from you by laying you off in favor of someone else? That job does not belong to you, it belongs to the corporation."

A corporation may or may not be abusing the system so your stupid 'a corporation' is just more garbage from you. Nice and generic. Pointless. But, of course, you know that. Stick to the issue not some generic definition of a corporation.

There are many corporations, like Disney, that are abusing the system. Bringing in workers under false and illegal situations. Breaking the law to pay foreigners less.

Posted by: Misfortune & Pestilence at October 30, 2015 06:31 PM (OUjkK)

335 If we truly had a labor shortage of say engineers, I could maybe open to expanding visas, but it's nonsense.

I remember working for a company where we had an engineer from Pakistan on a visa that the company paid like fast food wages for, that's the real goal here. The owner certainly did not have an issue finding an engineer, he just didn't want to pay a middle class wage. Same with the Zuckerberg types in Silicon Valley. Cram them into a shipping container and let them get healthcare and foodstamps from the government.

And maybe in some sort of libertarian utopia it all works out, but I just see a handful of oligarchs making out like bandits while destroying the middle class. Same with trade.

Posted by: Coolio at October 30, 2015 06:34 PM (I4PQV)

336 Wait a minute...

What's this deal about STEM? I thought that was about the only EXCEPTION to the jobless recovery that we've got going on? Not that I thought it was great there, either.

On a side note, practically all the engineering students in graduate school in this town are from India (or at least China).

Posted by: Optimizer at October 30, 2015 06:37 PM (/q6+P)

337 "Yeah, we can be ripped off by a company, but not with anything to do with hiring and firing."

Uh, hiring a foreigner under false pretenses (abusing immigration laws) is a rip off.

God, people have explained the scams over and over again. Wake up.

Posted by: Misfortune & Pestilence at October 30, 2015 06:37 PM (OUjkK)

338 "Uh, hiring a foreigner under false pretenses (abusing immigration laws) is a rip off. "

How? What wealth was taken from you? I'm on my way home . Please try to think of an explanation and I'll get back to you later.

Posted by: wtp at October 30, 2015 06:44 PM (grnQS)

339

If you do not want them tipping the scales against you, then you need to create a majority position that tips the scales balanced.

Which is what removing government from controlling borders would do, pretty sure they can still lock up criminals without undercutting the marketplace for their cronies.

Posted by: All Teh Meh at October 30, 2015 06:53 PM (5LHtI)

340 339 Actually, without borders there is no government, so, no, they would not be locking them up.
Like I said, feel free to live your fantasy on an isolated island, far far far far far far away from me.
I want government controlling the border. In fact, that there is the one biggest single reasons I want government. I can take care of petty criminals on my own. It is called a gun with ammo and a rope with a tree. But what I cannot take care of on my own is keeping invaders from coming in large numbers to take that which I own away from me.
So, I join with a large number of other people and create an authority to make that happen. We give that authority some of our power so they can defend our declared borders so that we citizens can have a peaceful existence in which to create and build and own and eventually give to our children.

Posted by: astonerii at October 30, 2015 07:08 PM (o/DjS)

341 Illegals are here to do the raping and killing Americans won't do.

And people think we should sent them home. Well California went to Mexica and actually brought one here so we can feed it and watch it in a cage for another 10 or 20 years for doing just that 30 years ago.

Posted by: torabora at October 30, 2015 07:16 PM (/WZIS)

342 And just saw this...
"Didn't argue that. But a Country has a duty to ensure that its citizens' needs are met first."

The government has a responsibility to protect you from acts of violence, to validate contracts, etc. It does not have a duty to ensure your needs are met. Been trying to tell this to lefties for decades, shameful that I need to point that out on a supposed conservative blog.

Posted by: wtp at October 30, 2015 07:30 PM (WQfDg)

343 340 339 Actually, without borders there is no government

We have a border in name only right now, been that way for decades, people come and go at will already and they do so because the US govt allows it and yet the government still stands.

Posted by: All Teh Meh at October 30, 2015 07:30 PM (5LHtI)

344 "We have a border in name only right now, been that way for decades, people come and go at will already and they do so because the US govt allows it and yet the government still stands."

Just because a bad policy is continuing without harm occurring does not mean the policy is a good one. A country must maintain its borders. This is simple political logic. Why bother spending trillions on a military if you're just going to let every Ali, Habeeb, and Pancho walk across the border any time they feel like?

Posted by: wtp at October 30, 2015 07:35 PM (WQfDg)

345 "Uh, hiring a foreigner under false pretenses (abusing immigration laws) is a rip off. "

"How? What wealth was taken from you? I'm on my way home . Please try to think of an explanation and I'll get back to you later."

Exactly how dense are you? First of all, you use the word 'wealth' as in, I guess, money. Wealth is not necessarily a tangible asset.

Just being an American citizen is an asset (or at least it used to be). When a corporation steals even the tiniest bit of that asset, usurps even the tiniest bit of the power to have immigration laws set by the collective American public through their representatives, they've stolen wealth from me. They've devalued - illegally- the wealth of my asset of being an American citizen.

In terms of cold hard cash? Yeah, those people who were illegally fired or let go because corporations want to illegally bring people here to pay them less, well, there is everything that unemployment brings that cost the taxpayer - government assistance. All the scams to get relatives of these people here and the costs involved. All the costs of people OVERSTAYING their visas, etc.

Not to mention the loss of hours that that productive American person would bring to their communities.

For some reason you seem to think that corporations are not required to follow the law and to not have to pay any penalties for not following the law.

You seem to think that just because a corporation exists that it some how supersedes the laws of any nation. It some how deserves to act any way it likes to either maintain its existence or for profit.

I don't owe any corporation any explanation. There are laws set by the citizens of this country and these specific corporations have a legal obligation to not scam the people of this country.

Theft. Pure and simple.

Posted by: Misfortune & Pestilence at October 30, 2015 08:00 PM (OUjkK)

346 And by the way, Trump has repeatedly said (in so many words) that he is going to restore the value of the asset of being an American citizen. One way is by enforcing our immigration laws and using the power of his Justice Department to enforce the laws these corporations are violating with impunity.

Posted by: Misfortune & Pestilence at October 30, 2015 08:23 PM (OUjkK)

347 The government has a responsibility to protect you from acts of violence, to validate contracts, etc. It does not have a duty to ensure your needs are met. Been trying to tell this to lefties for decades, shameful that I need to point that out on a supposed conservative blog.

Just because a left holds a belief doesn't make the belief wrong. A representative government is The Citizens. Their welfare is it's only concern.

What constitutes that welfare is what politics and persuasion are about.

Posted by: Grump928(C) at October 30, 2015 08:44 PM (rwI+c)

348 "Exactly how dense are you? "

First off, can we stop with the personal attacks? In respect to the house rules, I have been holding waaaaay back. You don't know me long enough nor certainly well enough to understand where I'm coming from and what I might know that you do not. I used the word 'wealth' first of all to be accurate as one who understands economics understands there is a distinct difference between wealth and money. Bill Gates (and every other wealthy person, including some not so wealthy) holds very little money relative to the wealth he has. I also used it to see if you would bite on that. I suspected you were informed enough to understand this but apparently I was wrong. Yes, being an American citizen is an asset. But that asset has the same value for you as it has for the guy living under my local overpass. It is the protection of your rights and liberties as defined in the Constitution. Nowhere in the Constitution are you promised that your needs will be met. The Declaration of Independence does recognize that men have an inalienable right to the "pursuit of happiness". The Fifth Amendment does offer protection for your life, liberty and property. But not a right to be cared for.

"In terms of cold hard cash? Yeah, those people who were illegally fired or let go because corporations want to illegally bring people here to pay them less, well, there is everything that unemployment brings that cost the taxpayer - government assistance. "

You have no right to that job. That job belongs to whomever the person or entity that needs the work done. They define everything about the job, including its value to them. This is fundamental to economics. I know schools do not teach such but reality doesn't care. The costs of unemployment insurance are (supposedly) paid by the employee and the employer via unemployment insurance taxes. That the costs go beyond that are a problem with the tax system but they are not the responsibility of the employer.

Nowhere have I said that corporations are not required to follow the law. But neither are they required to exist nor to provide jobs for people. Corporations exist to provide products and services to their customers, and yes obey the laws. That is it. Nothing more. If the laws become onorous, they have no obligation to remain in business. At that point, all jobs are lost along with the products and services they may provide. As for "You seem to think that just because a corporation exists that it some how supersedes the laws of any nation."...Not at all. They must exist, and are defined by, whatever nation they choose to exist in. But the laws of economics do supersede the laws of any nation and any man.

Posted by: wtp at October 30, 2015 09:21 PM (WQfDg)

349 "Just because a left holds a belief doesn't make the belief wrong."
True.

" A representative government is The Citizens. Their welfare is it's only concern."
Welfare is socialists. Their life, liberty, property, etc. are to be protected. You are responsible for your own welfare.

Ace, are you out there? It seems this blog could use some diversity in the area of economics. Do you have access to people with understanding of the Austrian School here? I'm no big von Mises fan, I'm more Freidman/Hayek, but boy do I feel like one tonight.

Posted by: wtp at October 30, 2015 09:28 PM (WQfDg)

350 "I used the word 'wealth' first of all to be accurate as one who understands economics understands there is a distinct difference between wealth and money. Bill Gates (and every other wealthy person, including some not so wealthy) holds very little money relative to the wealth he has. I also used it to see if you would bite on that. I suspected you were informed enough to understand this but apparently I was wrong."

Uh, that's why I mentioned your using 'wealth' in your question. I knew exactly why you used it. So I was informed. I know what wealth means.

"Yes, being an American citizen is an asset. But that asset has the same value for you as it has for the guy living under my local overpass. It is the protection of your rights and liberties as defined in the Constitution."

Yeah, again the obvious. Not disputed.

"Nowhere in the Constitution are you promised that your needs will be met."

Where the hell have I said anything like that? Where? I haven't. You keep ignoring the issue and going off on tangents.

"The Declaration of Independence does recognize that men have an inalienable right to the "pursuit of happiness". The Fifth Amendment does offer protection for your life, liberty and property. But not a right to be cared for."

Ah, again, not disputed. Who said it was any different? Not me.

"You have no right to that job."

Broken record. I never said I did.

"That job belongs to whomever the person or entity that needs the work done. They define everything about the job, including its value to them."

Right LEGALLY. These corporations are not following the law.

I know that you want to keep ignoring the point whole point of this topic, you lose otherwise.

"Corporations exist to provide products and services to their customers, and yes obey the laws. That is it. Nothing more."

Right.

" At that point, all jobs are lost along with the products and services they may provide."

Oh well, if they break the law, we'll just have to accept that they can't hack it legally.

"But the laws of economics do supersede the laws of any nation and any man."

Good then they can park their asses in a foreign country and be beholden to that countries laws and taxes and not get the benefits of scamming American citizens.

Posted by: Misfortune & Pestilence at October 30, 2015 09:52 PM (OUjkK)

351 "LEGALLY. These corporations are not following the law. "

How are they not following the law? H1B visas are an element of the law. Perhaps we are talking past each other. I am only arguing in the context of H1B's. Hiring people who are here illegally is most definitely wrong on many levels, though I can see if the government fails to enforce the law, economics will require them to either do so themselves or go out of business.

Posted by: Wtp at October 30, 2015 09:58 PM (WQfDg)

352 ""That job belongs to whomever the person or entity that needs the work done. They define everything about the job, including its value to them."

They don't get to define the law. They don't get to break the law. They can pull the job off the market. They can hire someone in a foreign country to do the job IN THE FOREIGN country - according to American laws, or laws of the country they are entities of.

They don't get to bring foreigners here to do the job at lower wages.

Keep F'n that chicken.

Posted by: Misfortune & Pestilence at October 30, 2015 10:03 PM (OUjkK)

353 OK...so I said:
"Corporations do not exist to provide jobs to people. People have a responsibility to make themselves useful."

And you said:
"This is bullshit."

Now you say:
"Right"

And now you say:
"Keep F'n that chicken. "

Well FUCK you and your horse, your wife, your dog, fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck. There. I win. I said more fucks than you;

Good god. What the living fuck is wrong with you people? This is Austrian School economics. Sure there are places to argue and disagree but put down the Jack Daniels and think for your fucking selves. Jesus Christ.

Posted by: wtp at October 30, 2015 10:07 PM (WQfDg)

354 "How are they not following the law? H1B visas are an element of the law."

Many, many posts here and across the conservative blogosphere of first hand accounts, not to mention Disney, etc.

These people are training their replacements. They are not fired for cause or being incompetence. They are being let go for lower foreigners working for lower wages - that is against the law.

The scam is using the cover of H1B as a fig leaf.

Posted by: Misfortune & Pestilence at October 30, 2015 10:10 PM (OUjkK)

355 "Corporations do not exist to provide jobs to people. People have a responsibility to make themselves useful. They can do so for themselves or they can do so for a faceless corporation. You have a choice. This conservative bellyaching is embarassing."

That's what you said. The bullshit part was for the "bellyaching."

You ignore the illegality of bring foreign workers here for only the purpose of lower wages not because they have some super duper skill that American workers don't have.

And they do it under the guise of H1B visa laws.

Posted by: Misfortune & Pestilence at October 30, 2015 10:19 PM (OUjkK)

356 And such has been going on since at least the late 1990's. I've lived through it. Trained my replacements eventually got laid off, got another job for more money. And if it truly is "illegal" it would have been stopped by now. Such is the meaning of "law". Either way, the laws of economics don't give a fuck about H1B visas or not. The job is worth whatever someone is willing to pay for it. No one has a right to that job. No one. If a robot could do it, they'd get a robot to do it. You're hung up on law. Law only works in so far as it recognizes reality. Our American system has worked better than any other because our laws are more in harmony with reality than any other system that has existed. As you say, if "They can pull the job off the market. They can hire someone in a foreign country to do the job IN THE FOREIGN country - according to American laws, or laws of the country they are entities of"...so can the workers of this country, because the laws of economics rule and more than likely the corporations will do so. Of course other countries suck much much worse than this one, so the corporations are hesitant. As are the workers. But such is economics.

Posted by: wtp at October 30, 2015 10:23 PM (WQfDg)

357 ""Corporations do not exist to provide jobs to people. People have a responsibility to make themselves useful. They can do so for themselves or they can do so for a faceless corporation. You have a choice. This conservative bellyaching is embarassing."

That's what you said. The bullshit part was for the "bellyaching." "

Yeah...that's not what you quoted the first time that I responded to. Seriously, do you just want to fucking argue for the sake of fucking argument fuck fuck fuck? Rhetorical question. The bellyaching is embarassing bullshit. bullshit bullshit bullshit. See, I win again.

Posted by: wtp at October 30, 2015 10:26 PM (WQfDg)

358 "But such is economics."

You mix up economics with theft, crony capitalism.

They are not getting something at free market value. They are stealing from the American citizen, worker and taxpayer. A trifecta.

They are off loading costs to us. They are stealing our ability to control our immigration, legal or illegal.

Legitimate supply and demand are not at work here. There is a big old, corrupt thumb on the scale. Don't call it economics.

A robot wouldn't be a problem. A robot would be an improvement - NOT AT A COST to the American citizen, worker or taxpayer.

Just because you are resigned to the abuse, you shouldn't stop those of us who want it stopped.

Posted by: Misfortune & Pestilence at October 30, 2015 10:41 PM (OUjkK)

359 " NOT AT A COST to the American citizen, worker or taxpayer. "

Sorry - meant "not a cost"

Posted by: Misfortune & Pestilence at October 30, 2015 10:43 PM (OUjkK)

360 You mix up law with reality.

"A robot wouldn't be a problem. A robot would be an improvement - NOT AT A COST to the American citizen, worker or taxpayer. "

Does a robot pay taxes? Does a robot buy a house, eat at a restaurant, etc? Now I agree that if the H1B worker hangs around after losing his job, he becomes a burden. But as I understand it, lose your job, lose your visa. As it should be. But what difference does it make if a robot does the job or a foriegn worker? Either way, an American isn't doing it. And, while tax law complicates things here, the worker still pays social security and income taxes. If they never become citizens that SS tax is all ours, as I understand it. And the corporation is on the hook for paying the taxes on the profits they make on the lower labor costs. Corporate taxes are significantly higher than the taxes on wages that would be paid, or the delta of what would be paid, to the US worker.

"Just because you are resigned to the abuse, you shouldn't stop those of us who want it stopped."
Where's the "abuse"? The job does not belong to you. Everything you complained about losing above, which I still say was not a loss because those things did not belong to you, would be "lost" due to the robot dong the job.

Posted by: wtp at October 30, 2015 10:59 PM (WQfDg)

361 A robot creates a different set of problems for workers. Not going to waste time on the subject. Apples and oranges.

"Now I agree that if the H1B worker hangs around after losing his job, he becomes a burden"

He's a burden from the get go. He starts out and stays a burden. He's lowered wages.

"But as I understand it, lose your job, lose your visa."

Yeah, right. Where's that reality thing you've been mentioning.

"And the corporation is on the hook for paying the taxes on the profits they make on the lower labor costs."

Why do you assume the corporations that broke the law in the first place are actually going to follow the law down the line?

"Corporate taxes are significantly higher than the taxes on wages that would be paid, or the delta of what would be paid, to the US worker."

No way are they going to the trouble of illegally bringing workers here at lower wages without it being much more profitable to themselves.

"Where's the "abuse"? The job does not belong to you."

Round and around we go. It just won't sink in.

The "job" comes with costs to the company. One of those costs is following the law.

Posted by: Misfortune & Pestilence at October 30, 2015 11:20 PM (OUjkK)

362 "A robot creates a different set of problems for workers. Not going to waste time on the subject. Apples and oranges. "

Bullshit. Cop-out. You were willing to accept a robot as an "improvement" now it's apples & oranges. The foreign worker no more lowers wages than the robot. These are the same arguments as apply to minimum wage laws and union monopolies. A job's value is determined by what someone is willing to pay for it. If they can get a robot or a horse or an outer Mongolian yak heardsman to do it for less, that is their prerogative. Either way, the worker will also put pressure on wages to drive them up by moving to another employer. Now if or what the limitations on job hopping for H1B holders may be would definitely be an unnatural downward pressure on wages. But as I recall H1B's are not that tight. But that should be resolved, if it indeed exists, by allowing job hopping by H1B's. The market is the market. It exists whether you believe in it or not.

The costs of following he law only apply to the company in so far as the company exists within that law's domain. You keep accusing me of being dense but I'm quite clear on my understanding of economics. We can call each other stupid all night. I've tried to restrain myself but if you insist on this name calling...well fuck you back. You are not trying to understand what I am saying. It's been attack and resistance and "you're an idiot" for hours now. I'm done dude. You have a good night. Fuck your wife for me, m'k?

Posted by: Wtp at October 30, 2015 11:45 PM (WQfDg)

363 I've read the entire article as well as Trump's other promouncements.

Nowhere does Trump say what Ace's title says he's saying. He's quite literally making things up now; it's not even a "mischaracterization".

Plus I realize taht none of the debate moderator or "conservative" media are interested in asking questions about or talking about immigration. Ace is especially uninterested in the immigration views - except to try to be "inaccurate" about the strongest candidate on the issue.

Nothing about Rubio's immigration stance.

Nothing about Fiorina's.

Nothing about Carson's.

It's telling, don't you think?

Posted by: jerry at October 31, 2015 12:58 PM (ukAh4)

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