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Are We Going To "Sad" Our Way Into A War In Syria?
The war in Syria has been waging for 4 years and estimates are that hundreds of thousands have died and hundreds of thousands, if not millions, more have been displaced by the fighting.
As is so often the case, powerful images appeared that suddenly placed renewed focus on a human tragedy. In the case of the Syrian war it was the images of a young boy's lifeless body washed ashore after the boat he was in sank and the parade of Syrian refugees desperate to get from Hungry to Germany. An ongoing human tragedy suddenly had renewed attention in the west. Naturally this included calls to "do something" about the human suffering we were all seeing on our screens. But what should that "something" be? For some the course of action was clear....direct US involvement in the conflict. Noah Rothman, writing at Commentary, summed up the case.The West had its chance to intervene in the bloodshed in Syria when it began. Ample chance, in fact. Western democracies were, however, snakebit by their experience in Libya, where the NATO powers that intervened in that conflict had no plan for the post-Muammar Gaddafi environment and left behind them a vacuum filled by Islamist militants. The West learned all the wrong lessons from that experience. Rather than to embrace of circumspect interventions with forethought applied to the post-war environment, not to mention the nation building required the intervention’s participating powers, the community of nations simply shielded its eyes from the terror that followed the Arab Spring. ... At the very least, it is incumbent upon us to look upon the face of the agony we permitted. Only then will it be possible to one day steel ourselves to the unpleasant task at hand. Only then will we eventually come to terms with the bloodletting we have abetted and to one day resolve to put an end to it. We owe that to that boy. Don’t look away.I agree with that final statement. We should not "look away." We should look at this challenge, as we should every other, with a cold, calculating view to what we can do and the cost we are willing to pay for it. It's hard to look at our involvement in the Mideast over the years and think we somehow hold the magic formula to ensuring any sort of tranquility or reasonable political solution there. Though not mentioned in Noah's piece the specter of Iraq haunts everything we do in that region now. One of the main arguments against Obama's total withdrawal of forces is that Iraq was a long term project that required some level of US force for years, if not decades, to maintain the post-surge gains. The problem with that is Iraq was never sold as a long-term project. American political and military planners never priced in the idea that we would be their for years. The Rumsfeld notion was go in fast, light, win and get the hell out (as early as the end of 2003). It didn't work. As a consequence by the 2008 elections Americans wanted out of Iraq and voted accordingly. It was not a failing on their part that they elected someone to get us out. You can say that war is an uncertain thing and you never know how it will end once you begin it. I agree. That's why we must be cautious in our choices of elective wars. Look at how Iraq went sideways and devolved into a sectarian war that ripped the country apart. Now consider Syria....a country that suffered under similar despotism to Iraq. Like pre-invasion Iraq, it is ruled by a vicious minority dictatorship. Unlike Iraq however Syria has limited natural resources to fund a reconstruction and most importantly it has been ripped apart by a multi-sided civil war that has destroyed much of what there was to date.
In Iraq, the insurgency started after the Baathist regime was removed and the US fumbled to assert control over the country (with insufficient forces). In the case of Syria, removing the regime would just be the start as the al Qaeda led rebels and Islamic State fighters would constitute and immediate two front insurgency that would have to be dealt with.
And once we defeat these three separate threats, and assuming no others spring up in response to our efforts (a rosy scenario we should be deeply skeptical of, think of Iranian backed proxies like Hezbolah) we would then inherit responsibility for the economic and political rebuilding of a destroyed nation. Oh and you may have to go through Russian forces to get to Assad. Are you ready to start a war with Russia over Syrian dead? No doubt interventionists will talk about "our allies" and "international partners". Are you willing to bet Turkey (which is or at least strongly suspected of working with ISIS. Turkey has also been more enthusiastic about attacking Kurds than ISIS), Saudi Arabia and Jordan are going to provide significant forces? And each has their own vision for the future of Syria that are not aligned with each other or ours (if we ever develop one). Should we decide to do this (hopefully we won't), it will be our mess. Much like Iraq and Afghanistan were overwhelmingly our fights despite the participation of allies. Keep in mind, we've been trying for over a year to identify and train an allied rebel force in Syria. We've failed miserably and tragically. Does our inability to even stand up a few hundred moderate fighters give you any confidence that the US should or could wade into Syria with a full scale military and reconstruction effort and navigate the political and cultural crosscurrents we no little, if anything about? If it does, you've really missed the last 14 or so years of US military and foreign policy history. The idea that there is any political appetite in the to undertake this task is laughable. But pretend for a moment there is. Do you really think there's going to be a generational will to rebuild that nation akin to what Iraq war supporters say we should have committed to post 2009? And if those cold hard facts aren't enough to turn you against any notion of invasion, occupation and reconstruction of Syria, let me play the emotion card. How many American children are you willing to consign to the loss of a parent to a war in Syria? How many widows of American servicemen and women are you willing to tell their grief was necessary, not for the safety of America, but to spare Syrian families the pain they are suffering? Personally, I'm willing to look at the awful imagoes of the Syrian war, and make no mistake, they are awful and heart breaking, and make the choice that I'm not willing to inflict that kind of suffering on Americans to assuage the guilt of people with an unrealistic sense of what America can and can't do and the cost it will entail.Comments
(Jump to bottom of comments)Posted by: An Observation at September 08, 2015 09:37 AM (o/upK)
2
aaaaaaaannnnnndddd, the GOP sucks.
Posted by: MTF at September 08, 2015 09:39 AM (TxJGV)
3
My wife is having a baby. El Niño de Sambo, número cuatro.
And good morning to you all, Horde. It is a fine day. Now to read Drew's post.
And good morning to you all, Horde. It is a fine day. Now to read Drew's post.
Posted by: Sambo at September 08, 2015 09:39 AM (0Txm0)
4
are we really at the point where we think Noah Rothman can cogently make a case for something? Oh! The Humanity!
Posted by: MTF at September 08, 2015 09:40 AM (TxJGV)
5
That Refugee Camp goes from horizon to horizon. How many refugees is Saudi Arabia taking in?
Posted by: Boss Moss at September 08, 2015 09:40 AM (fjaeZ)
Posted by: Tex Lovera at September 08, 2015 09:40 AM (wtvvX)
Posted by: USA at September 08, 2015 09:40 AM (tfM+W)
8
The problem with American foreign involvement is our apparent lack of stomach to see a job through to a logical end. We march in, fuck everything up, get cold feet, and march out leaving the place more fucked up than if we had never intervened. If you are going in, stay to the end. If you're gonna chicken out, stay out.
Posted by: maddogg at September 08, 2015 09:41 AM (xWW96)
9
So, apparently pixy doesn't like my Spanish punctuation. That says El nino de Sambo numero cuatro.
Posted by: Sambo at September 08, 2015 09:42 AM (0Txm0)
10
Ce?
Posted by: Boss Moss at September 08, 2015 09:42 AM (fjaeZ)
11
I apologize for being a glib asshat. Please don't ban me. I will now read the post, I promise (as much as I disdain Noah Rothman).
Posted by: MTF at September 08, 2015 09:42 AM (TxJGV)
12
I'm not willing to inflict that kind of suffering on Americans to assuage the guilt of people with an unrealistic sense of what America can and can't do and the cost it will entail.
It's not that they don't understand the cost, it's that they aren't the ones paying it. Nothing's too much when you're not the one picking up the check.
It's not that they don't understand the cost, it's that they aren't the ones paying it. Nothing's too much when you're not the one picking up the check.
Posted by: Brother Cavil, down with Eph 6:12-13 at September 08, 2015 09:42 AM (9krrF)
13
Shafiq offered advice to Ahmed on how he could obtain a first aid certificate as a cover to go into Syria unchecked as an aid worker.
http://goo.gl/Yudkpv
This is what that American woman who was killed by a drone did. She and others are ISM commies who want to be where the action is and have no qualifications to aid anyone. As if a local cant work as an aid??
Shafiq offered advice to Ahmed on how he could obtain a first aid certificate as a cover to go into Syria unchecked as an aid worker.
http://goo.gl/Yudkpv
This is what that American woman who was killed by a drone did. She and others are ISM commies who want to be where the action is and have no qualifications to aid anyone. As if a local cant work as an aid??
Posted by: Bruce With a Wang! at September 08, 2015 09:42 AM (iQIUe)
14
3
My wife is having a baby. El Nino de Sambo, numero cuatro.
And good morning to you all, Horde. It is a fine day. Now to read Drew's post.
Posted by: Sambo at September 08, 2015 09:39 AM (0Txm0)
best wishes!!!
My wife is having a baby. El Nino de Sambo, numero cuatro.
And good morning to you all, Horde. It is a fine day. Now to read Drew's post.
Posted by: Sambo at September 08, 2015 09:39 AM (0Txm0)
best wishes!!! Posted by: phoenixgirl, i was born a rebel at September 08, 2015 09:43 AM (0O7c5)
15
Barack Obama is a SCOAMT.
Posted by: AllenG (DedicatedTenther) - Fire-hooks and Rock Salt for sale at September 08, 2015 09:43 AM (kff5f)
Posted by: AllenG (DedicatedTenther) - Fire-hooks and Rock Salt for sale at September 08, 2015 09:43 AM (kff5f)
17
Fine post. I agree.
Oh, we COULD do it.
We COULD do it easily enough, Russians or not.
But that would require us to act militarily as if Patton or Grant or Pershing was in charge of the war, not John Q Milquetoast Obama.
Since we won't approach the war that way, we absolutely SHOULDN'T do it.
Oh, we COULD do it.
We COULD do it easily enough, Russians or not.
But that would require us to act militarily as if Patton or Grant or Pershing was in charge of the war, not John Q Milquetoast Obama.
Since we won't approach the war that way, we absolutely SHOULDN'T do it.
Posted by: Weirddave at September 08, 2015 09:43 AM (WvS3w)
18
Can't we send a few million Mexicans to help Syria build new camps?
Posted by: Boss Moss at September 08, 2015 09:44 AM (fjaeZ)
19
The only thing we'll do is the wrong thing, or nothing, until we have new/better leadership.
Posted by: BignJames at September 08, 2015 09:44 AM (j7iSn)
20
9 So, apparently pixy doesn't like my Spanish punctuation. That says El nino de Sambo numero cuatro.
Posted by: Sambo at September 08, 2015 09:42 AM (0Txm0)
Felicidades!
Posted by: Sambo at September 08, 2015 09:42 AM (0Txm0)
Felicidades!
Posted by: Insomniac at September 08, 2015 09:44 AM (2Ojst)
21
8
The problem with American foreign involvement is our apparent lack of
stomach to see a job through to a logical end. We march in, fuck
everything up, get cold feet, and march out leaving the place more
fucked up than if we had never intervened. If you are going in, stay to
the end. If you're gonna chicken out, stay out.
Posted by: maddogg at September 08, 2015 09:41 AM (xWW96)
Nation building requires the ability to make value judgments, which is something the Neoliberals have turned into a cardinal sin. You have to be honest enough to identify the parts of the society you're forcibly reforming that don't work, and use enough carrot and stick coercion to get people to try things your way, and do it for long enough that it starts to sink in that your way is better and works.
We did this with Germany and Japan. They're now major economic powers, and generally decent folk. Attempting nation building with a PC all cultures are equal mindset is a colossal waste of time, money, and lives.
The problem with American foreign involvement is our apparent lack of
stomach to see a job through to a logical end. We march in, fuck
everything up, get cold feet, and march out leaving the place more
fucked up than if we had never intervened. If you are going in, stay to
the end. If you're gonna chicken out, stay out.
Posted by: maddogg at September 08, 2015 09:41 AM (xWW96)
Nation building requires the ability to make value judgments, which is something the Neoliberals have turned into a cardinal sin. You have to be honest enough to identify the parts of the society you're forcibly reforming that don't work, and use enough carrot and stick coercion to get people to try things your way, and do it for long enough that it starts to sink in that your way is better and works.
We did this with Germany and Japan. They're now major economic powers, and generally decent folk. Attempting nation building with a PC all cultures are equal mindset is a colossal waste of time, money, and lives.
Posted by: Cato the Rebel Without a Party at September 08, 2015 09:44 AM (HalrA)
22
Remember Satan doesn't arrive bringing war - he arrives peacefully and prosperously. Nobody would believe he was Jesus if he went around cutting off heads and slaughtering people. Peace - Peace will be the cry that brings the dark master; not war and rumors of war.
Posted by: An Observation at September 08, 2015 09:45 AM (o/upK)
23
We were "sad"-ed by the New York Times and the Clintons to go into Somali, which went so well back in 1993.
Of course, the sadness went away once we got there.
No, wait, no it didn't.
Of course, the sadness went away once we got there.
No, wait, no it didn't.
Posted by: Adirondack Patriot at September 08, 2015 09:45 AM (KCQo0)
24
If you think winning a war is expensive, try losing one.
Posted by: Grump928(c) Lord of the Dance at September 08, 2015 09:45 AM (evdj2)
25
The other nuts I was thinking about this am are the Wild whatever, aka, Extreme whatevers.
Remember those commies who were living in, gasp, Syria, who decided to go hiking in Iran? They claim they got lost but BS. It's called Wild or Extreme hiking. It's this game the lefties do. They always count on them being American will get them out of a jam.
Remember those commies who were living in, gasp, Syria, who decided to go hiking in Iran? They claim they got lost but BS. It's called Wild or Extreme hiking. It's this game the lefties do. They always count on them being American will get them out of a jam.
Posted by: Bruce With a Wang! at September 08, 2015 09:46 AM (iQIUe)
26
I stopped reading when I got to the part about us doing anything.
The only thing I would be willing to do is wish them well as they fight their own battle.
They can show pictures of dead children 24/7
and I am still out of fucks to give.
The only thing I would be willing to do is wish them well as they fight their own battle.
They can show pictures of dead children 24/7
and I am still out of fucks to give.
Posted by: Velvet Ambition at September 08, 2015 09:46 AM (R8hU8)
27
So, apparently pixy doesn't like my Spanish punctuation. That says El nino de Sambo numero cuatro.
Bambino #4? Congrats.
Bambino #4? Congrats.
Posted by: rickb223 at September 08, 2015 09:46 AM (W4LFA)
28
Ampersand test &
Posted by: Tex Lovera at September 08, 2015 09:46 AM (wtvvX)
29
YAY! I can haz ampersandz!
Posted by: Tex Lovera at September 08, 2015 09:46 AM (wtvvX)
30
>>>In Iraq, the insurgency started after the Baathist regime was removed
and the US fumbled to assert control over the country (with insufficient
forces).
.
.
.This is because we forgot the lessons of Post World War II in both Germany and Japan.
and the US fumbled to assert control over the country (with insufficient
forces).
.
.
.This is because we forgot the lessons of Post World War II in both Germany and Japan.
Posted by: The Great White Scotsman at September 08, 2015 09:46 AM (iONHu)
31
22
Remember Satan doesn't arrive bringing war - he arrives peacefully and
prosperously. Nobody would believe he was Jesus if he went around
cutting off heads and slaughtering people. Peace - Peace will be the cry
that brings the dark master; not war and rumors of war.
Posted by: An Observation at September 08, 2015 09:45 AM (o/upK)
Peace and security, at the expense of your freedom, your dignity, and eventually your humanity and your immortal soul.
Remember Satan doesn't arrive bringing war - he arrives peacefully and
prosperously. Nobody would believe he was Jesus if he went around
cutting off heads and slaughtering people. Peace - Peace will be the cry
that brings the dark master; not war and rumors of war.
Posted by: An Observation at September 08, 2015 09:45 AM (o/upK)
Peace and security, at the expense of your freedom, your dignity, and eventually your humanity and your immortal soul.
Posted by: Cato the Rebel Without a Party at September 08, 2015 09:46 AM (HalrA)
32
Oh, and screw you Firefox.
Posted by: Tex Lovera at September 08, 2015 09:47 AM (wtvvX)
33
In the case of the Syrian war it was the images of a young boy's
lifeless body washed ashore after the boat he was in sank and the parade
of Syrian refugees desperate to get from Hungry to Germany.
We have no dog in this hunt and never have. There are no good guys here. And that pic of the boy washed up on the shore and the accompanying story is a pack of lies. he and his family had been living in Turkey for three years.
Personally, I'm willing to look at the awful imagoes of the Syrian war,
and make no mistake, they are awful and heart breaking, and make the
choice that I'm not willing to inflict that kind of suffering on
Americans to assuage the guilt of people with an unrealistic sense of
what America can and can't do and the cost it will entail.
And I view those images as lying propaganda. You can not trust a damn thing that comes out of that region or anything from the MFM.
And that is representative of the so-called "refugees" flooding across to Germany from Turkey. They are fleeing to free shit. Yes, in short, they are simply a muzzie FSA moving to high dollary handouts in Germany.
lifeless body washed ashore after the boat he was in sank and the parade
of Syrian refugees desperate to get from Hungry to Germany.
We have no dog in this hunt and never have. There are no good guys here. And that pic of the boy washed up on the shore and the accompanying story is a pack of lies. he and his family had been living in Turkey for three years.
Personally, I'm willing to look at the awful imagoes of the Syrian war,
and make no mistake, they are awful and heart breaking, and make the
choice that I'm not willing to inflict that kind of suffering on
Americans to assuage the guilt of people with an unrealistic sense of
what America can and can't do and the cost it will entail.
And I view those images as lying propaganda. You can not trust a damn thing that comes out of that region or anything from the MFM.
And that is representative of the so-called "refugees" flooding across to Germany from Turkey. They are fleeing to free shit. Yes, in short, they are simply a muzzie FSA moving to high dollary handouts in Germany.
Posted by: Vic-we have no party at September 08, 2015 09:47 AM (t2KH5)
34
We should throw all Syrians out of the West. They have a war to fight back home.
Posted by: Boss Moss at September 08, 2015 09:47 AM (fjaeZ)
35
I'm all for letting it sort itself out, on a political level. Nevertheless, the horror of the situation makes me wonder if there *I* can "do something."
Yes, they likely hate my very existence; they're still human and as a human (and a Christian) I'd like to offer what comfort I can.
Yes, they likely hate my very existence; they're still human and as a human (and a Christian) I'd like to offer what comfort I can.
Posted by: AllenG (DedicatedTenther) - Fire-hooks and Rock Salt for sale at September 08, 2015 09:47 AM (kff5f)
36
Look at how Iraq went sideways and devolved into a sectarian war that ripped the country apart.
One word: Iran.
Deal decisively with that pissant shit hole of a country and the entire Middle East will improve immensely.
One word: Iran.
Deal decisively with that pissant shit hole of a country and the entire Middle East will improve immensely.
Posted by: Grump928(c) Lord of the Dance at September 08, 2015 09:47 AM (evdj2)
37
This is what happens when you don't want to win. The only thing this debacle has done is give the lefty prog/coms some talking points. The rest of us get to live with the consequences of failure.
Posted by: BackwardsBoy at September 08, 2015 09:47 AM (LUgeY)
38
I'm pretty tired of getting into wars we aren't allowed to win.
Posted by: DangerGirl and her 1.21 Gigawatt Sanity Prod (tm) at September 08, 2015 09:48 AM (8oSoU)
39
And now I'm getting a maxipad advertisement. In Spanish, no less.
Posted by: Insomniac at September 08, 2015 09:48 AM (2Ojst)
40
Also... isn't a lot of the trouble in Syria "our fault" (meaning the SCOAMT's (lack of) foreign policy) in the first place?
Posted by: AllenG (DedicatedTenther) - Fire-hooks and Rock Salt for sale at September 08, 2015 09:48 AM (kff5f)
41
Noah Rothman, writing at Commentary, summed up the case. "steel ourselves to the unpleasant task at hand. Only then will we eventually come to terms with the bloodletting we have abetted and to one day resolve to put an end to it. We owe that to that boy. Dont look away."
We? Ourselves? So Noah is enlisting and volunteering to parachute into Syria to lead the battle? No? Oh, he wants someone else to do it to salve his conscience.
That seems to happen a lot.
Noah Rothman, writing at Commentary, summed up the case. "steel ourselves to the unpleasant task at hand. Only then will we eventually come to terms with the bloodletting we have abetted and to one day resolve to put an end to it. We owe that to that boy. Dont look away."
We? Ourselves? So Noah is enlisting and volunteering to parachute into Syria to lead the battle? No? Oh, he wants someone else to do it to salve his conscience.
That seems to happen a lot.
Posted by: Laurie David's Cervix at September 08, 2015 09:48 AM (kdS6q)
42
Let the Soviet Union keep Syria. Enjoy.
Posted by: Boss Moss at September 08, 2015 09:49 AM (fjaeZ)
43
I'm pretty tired of getting into wars we aren't allowed to win.
This.
Intervening in someone's real civil war is never a good idea. Doing it when you're not going to try to win is a worse one.
This.
Intervening in someone's real civil war is never a good idea. Doing it when you're not going to try to win is a worse one.
Posted by: AllenG (DedicatedTenther) - Fire-hooks and Rock Salt for sale at September 08, 2015 09:49 AM (kff5f)
44
I think the no insult / ad Hominen rule was crafted especially for DrewM.
Posted by: Max Rockatanksy at September 08, 2015 09:49 AM (Ok9RO)
45
19 The only thing we'll do is the wrong thing, or nothing, until we have new/better leadership.
Posted by: BignJames at September 08, 2015 09:44 AM (j7iSn)
To paraphrase a quote I like - I can't remember who said it - the right thing to do is the best thing to do. The wrong thing to do is the second best thing. The worst thing to do is nothing. Not sure how that advises in this situation.
19 The only thing we'll do is the wrong thing, or nothing, until we have new/better leadership.
Posted by: BignJames at September 08, 2015 09:44 AM (j7iSn)
To paraphrase a quote I like - I can't remember who said it - the right thing to do is the best thing to do. The wrong thing to do is the second best thing. The worst thing to do is nothing. Not sure how that advises in this situation.
Posted by: Sambo at September 08, 2015 09:49 AM (0Txm0)
46
Sambo: "Apparently pixy doesn't like my Spanish punctuation...."
From the acecomments.mu.nu Survival Guide:
http://bit.ly/pixyize
Converts modern text to html acceptable to AoSHQ's, um, unique requirements.
If you're one of those who can't post ampersands, though, you're SOL.
From the acecomments.mu.nu Survival Guide:
http://bit.ly/pixyize
Converts modern text to html acceptable to AoSHQ's, um, unique requirements.
If you're one of those who can't post ampersands, though, you're SOL.
Posted by: mindful webworker - ♥ at September 08, 2015 09:49 AM (SCOa6)
47
If the world doesn't want us to be their policeman, why the hell should we be their nanny?
Posted by: Adirondack Patriot at September 08, 2015 09:49 AM (KCQo0)
48
Nevertheless, the horror of the situation makes me wonder if there *I* can "do something."
Prayer.
That's about all we've got right now.
Prayer.
That's about all we've got right now.
Posted by: Brother Cavil, down with Eph 6:12-13 at September 08, 2015 09:50 AM (9krrF)
49
And now I'm getting a maxipad advertisement. In Spanish, no less.
Posted by: Insomniac at September 08, 2015 09:48 AM (2Ojst)
Bruce Jenner? Is that you?
Posted by: Insomniac at September 08, 2015 09:48 AM (2Ojst)
Bruce Jenner? Is that you?
Posted by: AllenG (DedicatedTenther) - Fire-hooks and Rock Salt for sale at September 08, 2015 09:50 AM (kff5f)
50
Posted by: Vic-we have no party at September 08, 2015 09:47 AM (t2KH5)
I disagree on only one point. There are good guys: The Kurds.
I disagree on only one point. There are good guys: The Kurds.
Posted by: Cato the Rebel Without a Party at September 08, 2015 09:50 AM (HalrA)
51
Have the aid ships from Haiti made it to Syria yet?
Posted by: Boss Moss at September 08, 2015 09:50 AM (fjaeZ)
52
It is easier to stay out than to get out
Posted by: ed gibbon at September 08, 2015 09:50 AM (vRNwc)
53
In the opening paragraphs I heard myself saying 'timeline', and was delighted to see Drew anticipated that point.
Obama withdraws US forces from Iraq, and overcompensates for his error by sending in CIA/Special Forces into Libya. Then when that didn't work he sent in his community organisers - political officers into Egypt, and that didn't work. So along comes Syria and Obama has emasculated himself. His CIA op in Libya funneling weapons into Syria gets taken out by 'someone' who kills his ambassador and sacks his secret op in Benghazi. His attempts to send in proxy forces into Syria blows up in his face.
After bragging about ending wars, Obama has a difficult task justifying getting the US into more wars. After giving away a victory in Iraq, and after saying he doesn't like the word 'victory', Obama can't justify 'victory' in Syria. He has screwed himself.
So let us ask the next question. How many troops does the Islamic State have on the battlefield? Tens of thousands? Hundreds of thousands?
Germany took in 800,000 'migrants' in the last twelve months. If only 25% of them are fighting men loyal to the Islamic State, there is a force in Germany large enough to take down Europe already. Where will those refugees go?
Obama withdraws US forces from Iraq, and overcompensates for his error by sending in CIA/Special Forces into Libya. Then when that didn't work he sent in his community organisers - political officers into Egypt, and that didn't work. So along comes Syria and Obama has emasculated himself. His CIA op in Libya funneling weapons into Syria gets taken out by 'someone' who kills his ambassador and sacks his secret op in Benghazi. His attempts to send in proxy forces into Syria blows up in his face.
After bragging about ending wars, Obama has a difficult task justifying getting the US into more wars. After giving away a victory in Iraq, and after saying he doesn't like the word 'victory', Obama can't justify 'victory' in Syria. He has screwed himself.
So let us ask the next question. How many troops does the Islamic State have on the battlefield? Tens of thousands? Hundreds of thousands?
Germany took in 800,000 'migrants' in the last twelve months. If only 25% of them are fighting men loyal to the Islamic State, there is a force in Germany large enough to take down Europe already. Where will those refugees go?
Posted by: Gustapha Karmakov at September 08, 2015 09:51 AM (DJKAF)
54
"Donald J. Trump, who received draft deferments through much of the Vietnam War, told the author of a forthcoming biography that he nevertheless 'always felt that I was in the military' because of his education at a military-themed boarding school."Mr. Trump said that his experience at the New York Military Academy, an expensive prep school where his parents had sent him to correct poor behavior, gave him 'more training militarily than a lot of the guys that go into the military.'"
Posted by: Done and Done at September 08, 2015 09:51 AM (nFICN)
55
In the television show, Lucifer arrives in a 1957 Corvette convertible.
Posted by: Bruce With a Wang! at September 08, 2015 09:51 AM (iQIUe)
56
If you're one of those who can't post ampersands, though, you're SOL.
Hmm. Time for a tech test.
﹠
＆
&
Hmm. Time for a tech test.
﹠
＆
&
Posted by: Brother Cavil, down with Eph 6:12-13 at September 08, 2015 09:51 AM (9krrF)
57
The middle east is not Vietnam; there are no jungles for the enemy to hide in, and you can't tunnel in sand worth a hoot. A few B-52 strikes could make ISIS vanish from the face of the earth. Then you wait for the next infection to grow strong enough to bomb. Requires no troops on the ground at all. All that is required is a President who likes the idea of the US winning.
Posted by: An Observation at September 08, 2015 09:52 AM (o/upK)
58
The kid and his family were living, safely, in Turkey.
Posted by: Kenway at September 08, 2015 09:52 AM (ogFtE)
59
What we need is some new Red Lines. Maybe Sparky can announce them.
Posted by: We Be Boned at September 08, 2015 09:52 AM (oDCMR)
60
49 And now I'm getting a maxipad advertisement. In Spanish, no less.
Posted by: Insomniac at September 08, 2015 09:48 AM (2Ojst)
Bruce Jenner? Is that you?
Posted by: AllenG (DedicatedTenther) - Fire-hooks and Rock Salt for sale at September 08, 2015 09:50 AM (kff5f)
Mama mi pinga.
Posted by: Insomniac at September 08, 2015 09:48 AM (2Ojst)
Bruce Jenner? Is that you?
Posted by: AllenG (DedicatedTenther) - Fire-hooks and Rock Salt for sale at September 08, 2015 09:50 AM (kff5f)
Mama mi pinga.
Posted by: Insomniac at September 08, 2015 09:52 AM (2Ojst)
61
>>In the case of the Syrian war it was the images of a young boy's lifeless body washed ashore....
Yeah, and the father's ever-changing story does little to dissuade one from thinking this is flat-out propaganda, no different than the set up images of poor Palestinians that have been coming out of the Gaza strip for years.
A toddler's death is sad, but it shouldn't drive policy.
Yeah, and the father's ever-changing story does little to dissuade one from thinking this is flat-out propaganda, no different than the set up images of poor Palestinians that have been coming out of the Gaza strip for years.
A toddler's death is sad, but it shouldn't drive policy.
Posted by: Lizzy at September 08, 2015 09:52 AM (NOIQH)
62
"Keep in mind, we've been trying for over a year to identify and train an allied rebel force in Syria."
By the way, have any of you ever noticed those long convoys of Islamic State jihadis riding around in hundreds of identical Toyota trucks, on their way to fresh rape-and-murder sprees?
Yeah, that. Have you then ever wondered why all the trucks being used by the Islamic State are all brand new and all the same make and model?
That's because you paid for them. Uncle Sugar, at President Barky's command, bought all those trucks for the "moderate Syrian resistance", and those "moderate" Syrians then all immediately defected to the Islamic State ranks.
By the way, have any of you ever noticed those long convoys of Islamic State jihadis riding around in hundreds of identical Toyota trucks, on their way to fresh rape-and-murder sprees?
Yeah, that. Have you then ever wondered why all the trucks being used by the Islamic State are all brand new and all the same make and model?
That's because you paid for them. Uncle Sugar, at President Barky's command, bought all those trucks for the "moderate Syrian resistance", and those "moderate" Syrians then all immediately defected to the Islamic State ranks.
Posted by: torquewrench at September 08, 2015 09:52 AM (noWW6)
63
50 I disagree on only one point. There are good guys: The Kurds.
Posted by: Cato the Rebel Without a Party at September 08, 2015 09:50 AM (HalrA)
The majority of the Kurds are in Iraq.
Posted by: Cato the Rebel Without a Party at September 08, 2015 09:50 AM (HalrA)
The majority of the Kurds are in Iraq.
Posted by: Vic-we have no party at September 08, 2015 09:52 AM (t2KH5)
64
Drone the reporters first. The forces of evil are trying to Rook us into a war with propaganda photos. Polonium sandwiches for the entire press pool.
Posted by: Boss Moss at September 08, 2015 09:53 AM (fjaeZ)
65
Syria doesn't have any real resources, does it? It's valuable only because of it's location. Rebuilding it will have to be on someone else's dime.
Posted by: Grump928(c) Lord of the Dance at September 08, 2015 09:53 AM (evdj2)
66
I think the no insult / ad Hominen rule was crafted especially for DrewM.
Posted by: Max Rockatanksy at September 08, 2015 09:49 AM (Ok9RO)
Are you kidding me?
I was happy to give as good as I got. Now I have to watch myself or else I could be banned.
That would be the most HQ thing ever....banned from commenting but free to post on the main page.
Posted by: Max Rockatanksy at September 08, 2015 09:49 AM (Ok9RO)
Are you kidding me?
I was happy to give as good as I got. Now I have to watch myself or else I could be banned.
That would be the most HQ thing ever....banned from commenting but free to post on the main page.
Posted by: DrewM. at September 08, 2015 09:53 AM (tn680)
67
Europe needs to close their boarders, and let the Middle East get on with its own version of the 30 Years War.
When they're done, the crazy genes will be wiped out of the population, and they may act civilized.
We should do nothing.
When they're done, the crazy genes will be wiped out of the population, and they may act civilized.
We should do nothing.
Posted by: Brendan at September 08, 2015 09:53 AM (gkvx9)
68
It wouldn't solve all of Syria's problems, but a good start would be bombing the heck out of ISIS training camps.
Posted by: Lizzy at September 08, 2015 09:53 AM (NOIQH)
69
Germany has a penchant for national suicide. They may have finally accomplished that goal.
Posted by: maddogg at September 08, 2015 09:53 AM (xWW96)
70
A toddler's death is sad, but it shouldn't drive policy.
Posted by: Lizzy at September 08, 2015 09:52 AM (NOIQH)
Sanity. Strictly forbidden these days. Don't let the Left catch you with it or they put the u in gulag.
Posted by: Lizzy at September 08, 2015 09:52 AM (NOIQH)
Sanity. Strictly forbidden these days. Don't let the Left catch you with it or they put the u in gulag.
Posted by: Cato the Rebel Without a Party at September 08, 2015 09:54 AM (HalrA)
71
There is a famous American saying, "Not my fucking problem." No Americans going there unless it's high altitude bombers and escorts. No refugees coming here.
Posted by: Dave, exile in RI at September 08, 2015 09:54 AM (RajG7)
72
Speaking of which, what in god's name does the Peace Corps actually do for this country?
Is there a more useless agency that has ZERO return to this country (aside from the EEOC)?
I say disband it today and give the money to the Department of Defense.
Is there a more useless agency that has ZERO return to this country (aside from the EEOC)?
I say disband it today and give the money to the Department of Defense.
Posted by: Adirondack Patriot at September 08, 2015 09:54 AM (KCQo0)
73
We're the bad guys when we intervene. We're the bad guys when we don't do anything. But the guys actually making a mess of things? Well that's a little more complicated.
Posted by: Nutsy the Buzzard at September 08, 2015 09:54 AM (lJJaE)
74
From a German friend on FB:
Sueddeutsche Zeitung today: France will accept 24,000 refugees within two years, the UK will accept 20,000 refugees within the next 5 years - this is the amount of refugees that arrived in Munich only this weekend.
This is the time, I am really proud to be German!
Sueddeutsche Zeitung today: France will accept 24,000 refugees within two years, the UK will accept 20,000 refugees within the next 5 years - this is the amount of refugees that arrived in Munich only this weekend.
This is the time, I am really proud to be German!
Posted by: Bandersnatch at September 08, 2015 09:54 AM (JtwS4)
75
No, let Syria burn!
Posted by: Draki at September 08, 2015 09:54 AM (0eidE)
76
I'm pretty tired of getting into wars we aren't allowed to win.
Posted by: DangerGirl
This War on Terror has lasted longer than WWI, WII and the War of Northern Aggression -- combined.
Anyone on the political side care to offer an estimated end date, or is this just going to go on forever?
I'm pretty tired of getting into wars we aren't allowed to win.
Posted by: DangerGirl
This War on Terror has lasted longer than WWI, WII and the War of Northern Aggression -- combined.
Anyone on the political side care to offer an estimated end date, or is this just going to go on forever?
Posted by: Laurie David's Cervix at September 08, 2015 09:54 AM (kdS6q)
77
I thought the dead boy was a Paliwood-esque production?
I read he had been living in Turkey for over 2 years and his parents wanted into England. Still sad, but not the narrative they are pushing.
I read he had been living in Turkey for over 2 years and his parents wanted into England. Still sad, but not the narrative they are pushing.
Posted by: Gandalf at September 08, 2015 09:54 AM (ZHZBE)
78
That would be the most HQ thing ever....banned from commenting but free to post on the main page.
You mean like the Ewok Emeritus did to himself that one time?
You mean like the Ewok Emeritus did to himself that one time?
Posted by: Brother Cavil, down with Eph 6:12-13 at September 08, 2015 09:55 AM (9krrF)
79
Deploy the SJW Legions.
Posted by: Boss Moss at September 08, 2015 09:55 AM (fjaeZ)
Posted by: Soothsayer at September 08, 2015 09:55 AM (WTBBG)
81
Not mentioned in Noah's article is that he or, more precisely, the people he shills for, and the policies he advocates, is directly responsible for that dead child, and all the other children that lie dead in the rubble of Syria.
Assad may have been a tyrant, but he ran a functioning country that was by no means a Third World hell hole.
Without the intervention of outside parties, Assad would likely have mopped up that rebellion in a couple of weeks.
Instead, the United States decided to stage a proxy war with Iran in the middle of Syria. Working through the Sunni Gulf kingdoms, we funneled arms and money to the opposition, while Iran and Russia did the same with the regime.
The result has been the utter destruction of Syria which, like Iraq, is no longer a recognizable nation state.
John McCain, Lindsey Graham, Marco Rubio, the Commentary crowd, and Noah Rothman are as responsible for this unspeakable atrocity as is the Obama Administration and Hillary Clinton.
Noah Rothman's article may be the single most obtuse, hypocritical, and morally repugnant thing I have read in years.
I won't even go into the fact that the destruction of Libya opened the bottleneck that has unleashed much of the refugee crisis that is now being exploited by the likes of Noah Rothman.
What a vile little man, and what vile little men. Thanks, Drew, for figuring some of this out. As far as I can tell, you are one of the first.
Assad may have been a tyrant, but he ran a functioning country that was by no means a Third World hell hole.
Without the intervention of outside parties, Assad would likely have mopped up that rebellion in a couple of weeks.
Instead, the United States decided to stage a proxy war with Iran in the middle of Syria. Working through the Sunni Gulf kingdoms, we funneled arms and money to the opposition, while Iran and Russia did the same with the regime.
The result has been the utter destruction of Syria which, like Iraq, is no longer a recognizable nation state.
John McCain, Lindsey Graham, Marco Rubio, the Commentary crowd, and Noah Rothman are as responsible for this unspeakable atrocity as is the Obama Administration and Hillary Clinton.
Noah Rothman's article may be the single most obtuse, hypocritical, and morally repugnant thing I have read in years.
I won't even go into the fact that the destruction of Libya opened the bottleneck that has unleashed much of the refugee crisis that is now being exploited by the likes of Noah Rothman.
What a vile little man, and what vile little men. Thanks, Drew, for figuring some of this out. As far as I can tell, you are one of the first.
Posted by: Joseph K at September 08, 2015 09:55 AM (3//tw)
82
Posted by: DrewM. at September 08, 2015 09:53 AM (tn680)
We love you Drew! Keep posting and ignore the trolls.
We love you Drew! Keep posting and ignore the trolls.
Posted by: Draki at September 08, 2015 09:55 AM (0eidE)
83
The problem with American foreign involvement is our apparent lack of stomach to see a job through to a logical end. We march in, fuck everything up, get cold feet, and march out leaving the place more fucked up than if we had never intervened. If you are going in, stay to the end. If you're gonna chicken out, stay out.
Posted by: maddogg at September 08, 2015 09:41 AM (xWW96)
Our country isn't designed for long term interventions. And the problem isn't just leaving too soon. It is the unwillingness to inflict sufficient pain on the enemy. We should have been wiping out mosques and neighborhoods in Iraq of anyone who looked at us the wrong way.
Nation building is a farce. It is either conquest or destruction. I prefer the "We come and wipe you out if you mess with us. And if whoever takes your place does the same thing, we'll do it again." Cheaper and in the long run more sensible.
Posted by: maddogg at September 08, 2015 09:41 AM (xWW96)
Our country isn't designed for long term interventions. And the problem isn't just leaving too soon. It is the unwillingness to inflict sufficient pain on the enemy. We should have been wiping out mosques and neighborhoods in Iraq of anyone who looked at us the wrong way.
Nation building is a farce. It is either conquest or destruction. I prefer the "We come and wipe you out if you mess with us. And if whoever takes your place does the same thing, we'll do it again." Cheaper and in the long run more sensible.
Posted by: WOPR at September 08, 2015 09:56 AM (EAIbg)
84
The more y'all complain about the fem hyg product ads you're seeing, the more you'll see them. Google will feed back more, based on your comments.
So, remember, as some genius moron suggested, "hot topless redheads" in every comment.
Personally, I'm getting ads for Dell laptops, and ham.
So, remember, as some genius moron suggested, "hot topless redheads" in every comment.
Personally, I'm getting ads for Dell laptops, and ham.
Posted by: mindful webworker - adVERTizment at September 08, 2015 09:56 AM (SCOa6)
85
I personally dont even care if Trump had a deferement from the goddam Boy Scouts.
I personally dont even care if Trump had a deferement from the goddam Boy Scouts.
Posted by: Soothsayer at September 08, 2015 09:56 AM (WTBBG)
86
8 "The problem with American foreign involvement is our apparent lack of stomach to see a job through to a logical end. "
This is because colonialism has a bad name in the liberal press.
Rumsfeld was right about the military aspects of the war. Iraq had the 4th largest standing army in the world, but it was a 30 day cakewalk with less than 200 casualties. Our big mistake was bending to the New York Times and their insistence that the US was only there to steal the oil.
If we had brought in 100 trailer mounted generators, we could have supplied Baghdad with 24/7 power while a few permanent power plants were put online.
The military could have been put to work on border security and water/sewage upgrades, along with cleanup and residential building.
You win hearts and minds when there is an immediate improvement in the standard of living.
In exchange, locally elected leaders operate under the US provisional government. English is taught in the schools, television is pumped with US shows and pro-western propaganda and everyone is reminded daily what a shit life they had prior to the war.
Within a generation, Iraq would be more American than California.
And more loyal to the US.
This is because colonialism has a bad name in the liberal press.
Rumsfeld was right about the military aspects of the war. Iraq had the 4th largest standing army in the world, but it was a 30 day cakewalk with less than 200 casualties. Our big mistake was bending to the New York Times and their insistence that the US was only there to steal the oil.
If we had brought in 100 trailer mounted generators, we could have supplied Baghdad with 24/7 power while a few permanent power plants were put online.
The military could have been put to work on border security and water/sewage upgrades, along with cleanup and residential building.
You win hearts and minds when there is an immediate improvement in the standard of living.
In exchange, locally elected leaders operate under the US provisional government. English is taught in the schools, television is pumped with US shows and pro-western propaganda and everyone is reminded daily what a shit life they had prior to the war.
Within a generation, Iraq would be more American than California.
And more loyal to the US.
Posted by: jwest at September 08, 2015 09:56 AM (Zs4uk)
87
Noah is more than welcome to buy a plane ticket to Lebanon and sneak across the Syrian border to join the Resistance.
Do it, Noah, do it for that little child.
Do it, Noah, do it for that little child.
Posted by: Make America Great Again at September 08, 2015 09:56 AM (LXJ1e)
88
"are we really at the point where we think Noah Rothman can cogently make a case for something?"
Rothman's a perfect fit for Poppin' Fresh, Allahpussy, and the rest of the gang over there at _Warm Flatus_.
Rothman's a perfect fit for Poppin' Fresh, Allahpussy, and the rest of the gang over there at _Warm Flatus_.
Posted by: torquewrench at September 08, 2015 09:56 AM (noWW6)
89
That would be the most HQ thing ever....banned from commenting but free to post on the main page.
Posted by: DrewM. at September 08, 2015 09:53 AM (tn680)
Like the Head Ewok!
Posted by: DrewM. at September 08, 2015 09:53 AM (tn680)
Like the Head Ewok!
Posted by: AllenG (DedicatedTenther) - Fire-hooks and Rock Salt for sale at September 08, 2015 09:57 AM (kff5f)
90
This is the time, I am really proud to be German!
Posted by: Bandersnatch at September 08, 2015 09:54 AM (JtwS4)
He should enjoy it while he can.
Posted by: Bandersnatch at September 08, 2015 09:54 AM (JtwS4)
He should enjoy it while he can.
Posted by: BignJames at September 08, 2015 09:57 AM (j7iSn)
91
By the way, have any of you ever noticed those long convoys of Islamic State jihadis riding around in hundreds of identical Toyota trucks, on their way to fresh rape-and-murder sprees?
On Star those bitches and shut them off. Way out past the middle of nowhere.
On Star those bitches and shut them off. Way out past the middle of nowhere.
Posted by: rickb223 at September 08, 2015 09:57 AM (W4LFA)
92
The GOPE has started an anti Trump Campaign.
Posted by: Boss Moss at September 08, 2015 09:58 AM (fjaeZ)
93
So I used to be a volunteer firefighter.
When I was going through training, I was introduced to the concept of the SEP: Somebody Else's Problem.
The context is this: you roll up to a fire, it's burning blazes, so you jump out and start gearing up. A woman rushes up to you and starts shrieking that her toddler is in that building and goddammit get your ass in there and save him. Are you going to run in there unprepared, rushed, and make a mistake in your gear that will not only endanger or end your life but also that of your team?
No. Because as harsh and heartless as it sounds, that kid in the building is an SEP. That isn't to say you ought not try, but that attempt has to be done in the context of the overall effort.
That's how I'm viewing Syria right now. Yes, it's terrible and yes I think Assad should burn in Hell for his sins, but it's an SEP. When it stops being an SEP, that's to say that there is a clear danger to the US...that's when I say deploy. Not a minute before.
When I was going through training, I was introduced to the concept of the SEP: Somebody Else's Problem.
The context is this: you roll up to a fire, it's burning blazes, so you jump out and start gearing up. A woman rushes up to you and starts shrieking that her toddler is in that building and goddammit get your ass in there and save him. Are you going to run in there unprepared, rushed, and make a mistake in your gear that will not only endanger or end your life but also that of your team?
No. Because as harsh and heartless as it sounds, that kid in the building is an SEP. That isn't to say you ought not try, but that attempt has to be done in the context of the overall effort.
That's how I'm viewing Syria right now. Yes, it's terrible and yes I think Assad should burn in Hell for his sins, but it's an SEP. When it stops being an SEP, that's to say that there is a clear danger to the US...that's when I say deploy. Not a minute before.
Posted by: VA GOP Sucks at September 08, 2015 09:58 AM (eytER)
94
>>I was happy to give as good as I got. Now I have to watch myself or else I could be banned.
You should be banned just for being a Rangers fan.
You should be banned just for being a Rangers fan.
Posted by: Gandalf at September 08, 2015 09:58 AM (ZHZBE)
95
Oh C'mon drew, I see a false choice here.
We could set up a fairly simple no fly zone. At least stop the fucking barrel bombs from being dropped.
Will it stop the war, no, but it stands to stop some of the most horrendous aspects of it.
We could set up a fairly simple no fly zone. At least stop the fucking barrel bombs from being dropped.
Will it stop the war, no, but it stands to stop some of the most horrendous aspects of it.
Posted by: tsrlbke PhD(c), rogue bioethicist at September 08, 2015 09:58 AM (tM4uk)
96
Forcing Turkey to stop bombing Kurds in Syria and Norther Iraq would be a start. Since Obama inexplicably agreed to the bombings back in July, YPG offensives against ISIS have ground to a halt and fighting between Kurds and Turkey inside Turkey has naturally flared up - alot.
This Obama blunder has pretty much been ignored with all the attention going to the Iran catastrophe.
This Obama blunder has pretty much been ignored with all the attention going to the Iran catastrophe.
Posted by: forest at September 08, 2015 09:58 AM (lcz8X)
97
The majority of the Kurds are in Iraq.
Posted by: Vic-we have no party at September 08, 2015 09:52 AM (t2KH5)
That's also true, but "Syria" as an entity no longer really exists. It's just an arbitrary blob on a map, a no man's land where the only law is the gun. So if the Kurds wanted to claw out their own state out of failing ISIS-held Northern Iraq and the portions of Kurdistan in Syria, why not redraw the borders a little? The modern world is way too obsessed with keeping borders in the same place, when all reason for a nation's unified existence has long past.
Posted by: Vic-we have no party at September 08, 2015 09:52 AM (t2KH5)
That's also true, but "Syria" as an entity no longer really exists. It's just an arbitrary blob on a map, a no man's land where the only law is the gun. So if the Kurds wanted to claw out their own state out of failing ISIS-held Northern Iraq and the portions of Kurdistan in Syria, why not redraw the borders a little? The modern world is way too obsessed with keeping borders in the same place, when all reason for a nation's unified existence has long past.
Posted by: Cato the Rebel Without a Party at September 08, 2015 09:59 AM (HalrA)
98
Planned Parenticide. would carve up the boy who washed up on the beach for spare parts.
Posted by: Boss Moss at September 08, 2015 09:59 AM (fjaeZ)
Posted by: rickl at September 08, 2015 10:00 AM (zoehZ)
100
92
The GOPE has started an anti Trump Campaign.
Posted by: Boss Moss at September 08, 2015 09:58 AM (fjaeZ)
Wait, that's news? I thought they were already on one.
The GOPE has started an anti Trump Campaign.
Posted by: Boss Moss at September 08, 2015 09:58 AM (fjaeZ)
Wait, that's news? I thought they were already on one.
Posted by: Cato the Rebel Without a Party at September 08, 2015 10:00 AM (HalrA)
101
So what was Hillary thinking when she took out Daffy Duck? Hillary is tan, tested and desperate.
Posted by: We Be Boned at September 08, 2015 10:00 AM (oDCMR)
102
FireNWater's Mideast Policy:
1) Build a very tall wall around entire Mid East
2) Airdrop in plenty of small arms and MRE's
3) Fund it all with a Fantasy League website
1) Build a very tall wall around entire Mid East
2) Airdrop in plenty of small arms and MRE's
3) Fund it all with a Fantasy League website
Posted by: FireNWater at September 08, 2015 10:00 AM (flQTY)
103
>>I'm pretty tired of getting into wars we aren't allowed to win.
THIS
We go all in on destroying ISIS.
Yes, they want this. But left alone they're slaughtering many in the ME and behind this mass immigration (they are in the human smuggling business now, planting jihadis throughout Europe and America).
THIS
We go all in on destroying ISIS.
Yes, they want this. But left alone they're slaughtering many in the ME and behind this mass immigration (they are in the human smuggling business now, planting jihadis throughout Europe and America).
Posted by: Lizzy at September 08, 2015 10:00 AM (NOIQH)
Posted by: RedMindBlueState at September 08, 2015 10:01 AM (KrAjA)
105
Our country isn't designed for long term interventions. And the problem isn't just leaving too soon. It is the unwillingness to inflict sufficient pain on the enemy. We should have been wiping out mosques and neighborhoods in Iraq of anyone who looked at us the wrong way.
Nation building is a farce. It is either conquest or destruction. I prefer the "We come and wipe you out if you mess with us. And if whoever takes your place does the same thing, we'll do it again." Cheaper and in the long run more sensible.
Posted by: WOPR at September 08, 2015 09:56 AM (EAIbg)
----------------
Being quite un-PC here, if women didn't have the right to vote, then maybe, MAYBE America could do something like a long term intervention.
WWII gave the country a false sense of what it is generally capable of doing. Perhaps WWII and the aftermath was an exceptional American project, something that cannot be repeated.
Our country isn't designed for long term interventions. And the problem isn't just leaving too soon. It is the unwillingness to inflict sufficient pain on the enemy. We should have been wiping out mosques and neighborhoods in Iraq of anyone who looked at us the wrong way.
Nation building is a farce. It is either conquest or destruction. I prefer the "We come and wipe you out if you mess with us. And if whoever takes your place does the same thing, we'll do it again." Cheaper and in the long run more sensible.
Posted by: WOPR at September 08, 2015 09:56 AM (EAIbg)
----------------
Being quite un-PC here, if women didn't have the right to vote, then maybe, MAYBE America could do something like a long term intervention.
WWII gave the country a false sense of what it is generally capable of doing. Perhaps WWII and the aftermath was an exceptional American project, something that cannot be repeated.
Posted by: Make America Great Again at September 08, 2015 10:01 AM (LXJ1e)
106
Within a generation, Iraq would be more American than California.
And more loyal to the US.
How much $$$ does it cost to airlift 20,000 taco trucks?
And more loyal to the US.
How much $$$ does it cost to airlift 20,000 taco trucks?
Posted by: rickb223 at September 08, 2015 10:01 AM (W4LFA)
107
Posted by: jwest at September 08, 2015 09:56 AM (Zs4uk)
I don't even know that you'd need "pro western propaganda," but this.
Seriously, not even "colonialism" in the old sense, but what we did in Germany and Japan post WWII would have been sufficient.
We wouldn't even do *that.*
Also, before there can be peace in the Middle East, Iran needs to be bombed into glass. As bad as Saddam-led Iraq was for stability in the region, Iran is 10 times worse, and (once they get nukes) will be 1,000,000 times worse.
I don't even know that you'd need "pro western propaganda," but this.
Seriously, not even "colonialism" in the old sense, but what we did in Germany and Japan post WWII would have been sufficient.
We wouldn't even do *that.*
Also, before there can be peace in the Middle East, Iran needs to be bombed into glass. As bad as Saddam-led Iraq was for stability in the region, Iran is 10 times worse, and (once they get nukes) will be 1,000,000 times worse.
Posted by: AllenG (DedicatedTenther) - Fire-hooks and Rock Salt for sale at September 08, 2015 10:01 AM (kff5f)
108
99
Know what I say to people who advocate going to war for "humanitarian" reasons?
"You first."
Posted by: rickl at September 08, 2015 10:00 AM (zoehZ)
Only if I get to reclaim it for the Roman Empire and declare myself Emperor.
Know what I say to people who advocate going to war for "humanitarian" reasons?
"You first."
Posted by: rickl at September 08, 2015 10:00 AM (zoehZ)
Only if I get to reclaim it for the Roman Empire and declare myself Emperor.
Posted by: Cato the Rebel Without a Party at September 08, 2015 10:02 AM (HalrA)
109
The muslime refugees are throwing feces at actual humans.
Posted by: Boss Moss at September 08, 2015 10:02 AM (fjaeZ)
110
Two things:
Fvck you Noah Rothman. We didn't permit any killing. The murderous behavior of those involved is a direct result of 1,400 years of Islam.
Arm the Kurds. For real. Modern weaponry, training and air support.
Anything else is a waste of time and money and American blood.
Fvck you Noah Rothman. We didn't permit any killing. The murderous behavior of those involved is a direct result of 1,400 years of Islam.
Arm the Kurds. For real. Modern weaponry, training and air support.
Anything else is a waste of time and money and American blood.
Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo at September 08, 2015 10:02 AM (adm5B)
111
We go all in on destroying ISIS.
Yes, they want this. But left alone they're slaughtering many in the
ME and behind this mass immigration (they are in the human smuggling
business now, planting jihadis throughout Europe and America).
Posted by: Lizzy at September 08, 2015 10:00 AM (NOIQH)
The terror creates the human wave, they profit on smuggling the human wave, and the smuggling funds the terror. It's a perpetual motion machine of doom.
Yes, they want this. But left alone they're slaughtering many in the
ME and behind this mass immigration (they are in the human smuggling
business now, planting jihadis throughout Europe and America).
Posted by: Lizzy at September 08, 2015 10:00 AM (NOIQH)
The terror creates the human wave, they profit on smuggling the human wave, and the smuggling funds the terror. It's a perpetual motion machine of doom.
Posted by: Cato the Rebel Without a Party at September 08, 2015 10:03 AM (HalrA)
112
This Obama blunder has pretty much been ignored with all the attention going to the Iran catastrophe.
Posted by: forest at September 08, 2015 09:58 AM (lcz8X)
------------------
Blunder? Obama's operative foreign policy in office is to reward our enemies and punish our friends.
Posted by: forest at September 08, 2015 09:58 AM (lcz8X)
------------------
Blunder? Obama's operative foreign policy in office is to reward our enemies and punish our friends.
Posted by: Make America Great Again at September 08, 2015 10:03 AM (LXJ1e)
113
If we do anything, help Jordan build a wall.
The proper response to wild animals it keep them out of civilization--not bring them indoors.
The proper response to wild animals it keep them out of civilization--not bring them indoors.
Posted by: RoyalOil at September 08, 2015 10:03 AM (ZvKdv)
114
So, how many hundreds of thousands of refugees fled to Europe when the United States military and its allies "occupied" Iraq?
And how many refugees do we have today now that the peace-loving left and the religion of Peace is in control of international policy in the region?
And how many refugees do we have today now that the peace-loving left and the religion of Peace is in control of international policy in the region?
Posted by: Adirondack Patriot at September 08, 2015 10:03 AM (KCQo0)
115
EarLeader hates the west (not just the US) even if he is not a closet muzztard. I'd wager he is pretty happy with a million+ refugees dragging on European countries. Why would he want to interrupt it?
European polls showed they wanted him, even again in 2012 at a higher percentage of idiots than here so they are getting what they asked for good and hard too.
European polls showed they wanted him, even again in 2012 at a higher percentage of idiots than here so they are getting what they asked for good and hard too.
Posted by: PaleRider at September 08, 2015 10:03 AM (iA/+T)
116
Wizard sockOFF
Posted by: Garrett at September 08, 2015 10:03 AM (ZHZBE)
117
As is so often the case, powerful images appeared that suddenly placed renewed focus on a human tragedy. In the case of the Syrian war it was the images of a young boy's lifeless body washed ashore after the boat he was in sank and the parade of Syrian refugees desperate to get from Hungry to Germany.
The boy and his family are NOT refugees from the present War in Syria. They have been living in Turkey for years and just took this opportunity to try and sneak into the EU-- most likely Germany- for financial reasons. So let's be clear here
The boy and his family are NOT refugees from the present War in Syria. They have been living in Turkey for years and just took this opportunity to try and sneak into the EU-- most likely Germany- for financial reasons. So let's be clear here
Posted by: Nevergiveup at September 08, 2015 10:03 AM (gf8BH)
118
When does the three dimensional Chess start?
Posted by: Boss Moss at September 08, 2015 10:04 AM (fjaeZ)
119
Muslims are fucking chimps. You all know how I feels about fucking chimps.
Muslims are fucking chimps. You all know how I feels about fucking chimps.
Posted by: Soothsayer at September 08, 2015 10:04 AM (WTBBG)
120
Why are there feminine product ads IN SPANISH in the ad boxes?
Posted by: parteagirl at September 08, 2015 10:04 AM (K0jlM)
121
Anyone on the political side care to offer an estimated end date, or is this just going to go on forever?
As long as there is power to be gained and freedom to be destroyed, we'll never see an end to the WOT. A few well places strikes in the ME (and the threat of a really big one) would've gone a long way towards ensuring our freedoms following 9/11.
The message should've been "One more terrorist attack on American soil and you'll be regretting it for generations. Fuck with us again and see what happens to you."
As long as there is power to be gained and freedom to be destroyed, we'll never see an end to the WOT. A few well places strikes in the ME (and the threat of a really big one) would've gone a long way towards ensuring our freedoms following 9/11.
The message should've been "One more terrorist attack on American soil and you'll be regretting it for generations. Fuck with us again and see what happens to you."
Posted by: BackwardsBoy at September 08, 2015 10:04 AM (LUgeY)
122
Heretofore nation state enemies of Israel are bring reduced to 7th century tribal zones. This is a feature, not a bug. The bigger question is why people like you are so slow on the uptake to see this.
Flash back to the pre 9/11 world. Israeli buses, nightclubs and pizza parlors were targets of suicide bombers paid and supported by nation states such as Iraq and Syria. It was unbearable. Then everything changed. The ME is on fire because western policy makers want it on fire. Stop acting dumb about this.
Flash back to the pre 9/11 world. Israeli buses, nightclubs and pizza parlors were targets of suicide bombers paid and supported by nation states such as Iraq and Syria. It was unbearable. Then everything changed. The ME is on fire because western policy makers want it on fire. Stop acting dumb about this.
Posted by: sadeyesteve at September 08, 2015 10:04 AM (jnIZ9)
123
We go all in on destroying ISIS.
Yes, they want this.
Then we'll have the same goal in mind. That should simplify matters.
Seriously, the only reason to be scared that "they *want* us to kill them all" is if you believe in their Apocalyptic Death Cult's prophecy.
As a Christian, I reject it out of hand. So - no problem.
Yes, they want this.
Then we'll have the same goal in mind. That should simplify matters.
Seriously, the only reason to be scared that "they *want* us to kill them all" is if you believe in their Apocalyptic Death Cult's prophecy.
As a Christian, I reject it out of hand. So - no problem.
Posted by: AllenG (DedicatedTenther) - Fire-hooks and Rock Salt for sale at September 08, 2015 10:04 AM (kff5f)
124
79 Deploy the SJW Legions.
---------------------
Yep. It would be fun watching them learn how people 'really are' instead of how they are in a Sociology Class. Good Times.
---------------------
Yep. It would be fun watching them learn how people 'really are' instead of how they are in a Sociology Class. Good Times.
Posted by: We Be Boned at September 08, 2015 10:05 AM (oDCMR)
125
>>They have been living in Turkey for years and just took this opportunity to try and sneak into the EU-- most likely Germany- for financial reasons.
I've read that the father wanted his teeth fixed, so he was going for the free healthcare.
I've read that the father wanted his teeth fixed, so he was going for the free healthcare.
Posted by: Lizzy at September 08, 2015 10:05 AM (NOIQH)
126
"The Rumsfeld notion was go in fast, light, win and get the hell out (as early as the end of 2003). It didn't work."
If the plan is predicated on steps A, B, C, and D, and if then steps A, B, and C are executed, with D being forgotten about, then there's going to be a problem.
Rumsfeld screwed up a number of things, but he did execute with precision according to plan on A, B, and C. He would have gone to to execute on D as well, except that Bush, Powell, and Rice got in his way.
If you read Rumsfeld's memoirs, he's got the meticulous documentary history of how the Bush administration's Oval Office, NSC and the State Department substituted magical thinking for hard realistic planning.
Abruptly disband the old Baathist-dominated Iraqi Army and turf out a bunch of trained military-age males, leaving them embittered towards the Americans and with no paychecks or prospects? Sure, what could go wrong with that?
Well, Rumsfeld demurred from that Bushite consensus. Strongly so.
If the plan is predicated on steps A, B, C, and D, and if then steps A, B, and C are executed, with D being forgotten about, then there's going to be a problem.
Rumsfeld screwed up a number of things, but he did execute with precision according to plan on A, B, and C. He would have gone to to execute on D as well, except that Bush, Powell, and Rice got in his way.
If you read Rumsfeld's memoirs, he's got the meticulous documentary history of how the Bush administration's Oval Office, NSC and the State Department substituted magical thinking for hard realistic planning.
Abruptly disband the old Baathist-dominated Iraqi Army and turf out a bunch of trained military-age males, leaving them embittered towards the Americans and with no paychecks or prospects? Sure, what could go wrong with that?
Well, Rumsfeld demurred from that Bushite consensus. Strongly so.
Posted by: torquewrench at September 08, 2015 10:05 AM (noWW6)
127
Posted by: Nevergiveup at September 08, 2015 10:03 AM (gf8BH
Right, but on the flip side, we're watching the slow invasion of Europe.
Collapse inside a generation at this point (if even that long.)
From a strictly foreign policy perspective can we let Europe simply collapse like that?
Right, but on the flip side, we're watching the slow invasion of Europe.
Collapse inside a generation at this point (if even that long.)
From a strictly foreign policy perspective can we let Europe simply collapse like that?
Posted by: tsrlbke PhD(c), rogue bioethicist at September 08, 2015 10:05 AM (tM4uk)
128
Much of the chaos in the Middle East has to do with Fredo's tilt to the far left and the muslim brotherhood and the abandonment of the Dictators that rules vast area of the Middle East. Were the Dictators good? Of course not, but the fact is, they were the best of a bad lot and Fredo had NO alternative to them except to abandon the Middle to the worst muslim scum possible.
Fuck you Fredo and drop dead
Fuck you Fredo and drop dead
Posted by: Nevergiveup at September 08, 2015 10:06 AM (gf8BH)
129
If we had gotten involved in Syria, we would have gone against Assad and given the goddamn country to ISIS.
Posted by: Bevel Lemelisk at September 08, 2015 10:06 AM (88fBD)
130
Muslims are fucking chimps. You all know how I feels about fucking chimps.
Posted by: Soothsayer
You'd do a dolphin in a heartbeat instead?
Posted by: Soothsayer
You'd do a dolphin in a heartbeat instead?
Posted by: rickb223 at September 08, 2015 10:06 AM (W4LFA)
131
From a strictly foreign policy perspective can we let Europe simply collapse like that?
Posted by: tsrlbke PhD(c), rogue bioethicist at September 08, 2015 10:05 AM (tM4uk)
With Fredo in the White House we are actively promoting that.
Posted by: tsrlbke PhD(c), rogue bioethicist at September 08, 2015 10:05 AM (tM4uk)
With Fredo in the White House we are actively promoting that.
Posted by: Nevergiveup at September 08, 2015 10:07 AM (gf8BH)
132
At current birth rates Europe is already dead.
Posted by: Boss Moss at September 08, 2015 10:07 AM (fjaeZ)
133
119
Muslims are fucking chimps. You all know how I feels about fucking chimps.
Posted by: Soothsayer at September 08, 2015 10:04 AM (WTBBG)
I thought they were fucking goats and underage girls. I guess they got bored.
Muslims are fucking chimps. You all know how I feels about fucking chimps.
Posted by: Soothsayer at September 08, 2015 10:04 AM (WTBBG)
I thought they were fucking goats and underage girls. I guess they got bored.
Posted by: Insomniac at September 08, 2015 10:07 AM (2Ojst)
134
Being quite un-PC here, if women didn't have the right to vote, then maybe, MAYBE America could do something like a long term intervention.
Nah, the structural issues well predate that. When your Commander in Chief has to stand for re-election every four years, it tends to impose its own timetables (even before term limits complicate the matter).
Nah, the structural issues well predate that. When your Commander in Chief has to stand for re-election every four years, it tends to impose its own timetables (even before term limits complicate the matter).
Posted by: Brother Cavil, down with Eph 6:12-13 at September 08, 2015 10:07 AM (9krrF)
135
Images of refugees in Europe:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=129&v=9c4Rvz5stHE
Not all widows w/children and grandparents.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=129&v=9c4Rvz5stHE
Not all widows w/children and grandparents.
Posted by: Lizzy at September 08, 2015 10:08 AM (NOIQH)
136
WWII gave the country a false sense of what it is
generally capable of doing. Perhaps WWII and the aftermath was an
exceptional American project, something that cannot be repeated.
Posted by: Make America Great Again at September 08, 2015 10:01 AM (LXJ1e)
Despite the horrors perpetrated by the Nazis and the Japanese, both cultures were similar to ours - belief in rule of law, etc. That is what allowed the post-conflict rebuilding to take place and be successful.
All of the Arab nations are held together by glue and string - the arabs are still tribalistic, they have no understanding of rule of law, and they don't live in the same century we do as regards due process, rule of law, minority rights, women's rights, etc. Ideas like "rule of law, not of men" are completely alien to them.
The only way to possibly create a western-style nation would be decades of colonialism, where we stamp out their current belief systems and replace it with more western-style beliefs. I'm not even talking about religion here, but ideas about humanity, rule of law, individual rights, value of human life, etc.
we are never going to be willing to do that, so the only true answer is let them kill each other as much as they want, and if they attack/harm us or our interests, inflect upon them tenfold the destruction so as to create fear.
I don't want any of those "nations" as a friend or ally of the U.S. I only want them to not harm the U.S.
generally capable of doing. Perhaps WWII and the aftermath was an
exceptional American project, something that cannot be repeated.
Posted by: Make America Great Again at September 08, 2015 10:01 AM (LXJ1e)
Despite the horrors perpetrated by the Nazis and the Japanese, both cultures were similar to ours - belief in rule of law, etc. That is what allowed the post-conflict rebuilding to take place and be successful.
All of the Arab nations are held together by glue and string - the arabs are still tribalistic, they have no understanding of rule of law, and they don't live in the same century we do as regards due process, rule of law, minority rights, women's rights, etc. Ideas like "rule of law, not of men" are completely alien to them.
The only way to possibly create a western-style nation would be decades of colonialism, where we stamp out their current belief systems and replace it with more western-style beliefs. I'm not even talking about religion here, but ideas about humanity, rule of law, individual rights, value of human life, etc.
we are never going to be willing to do that, so the only true answer is let them kill each other as much as they want, and if they attack/harm us or our interests, inflect upon them tenfold the destruction so as to create fear.
I don't want any of those "nations" as a friend or ally of the U.S. I only want them to not harm the U.S.
Posted by: Monkeytoe at September 08, 2015 10:08 AM (3ZtZW)
137
With Fredo in the White House we are actively promoting that.
Posted by: Nevergiveup at September 08, 2015 10:07 AM (gf8BH)
I don't disagree, but time is running out on that.
At this point we need to be asking "what comes after the SCOAMF?"
Posted by: Nevergiveup at September 08, 2015 10:07 AM (gf8BH)
I don't disagree, but time is running out on that.
At this point we need to be asking "what comes after the SCOAMF?"
Posted by: tsrlbke PhD(c), rogue bioethicist at September 08, 2015 10:08 AM (tM4uk)
Posted by: AllenG (DedicatedTenther) - Fire-hooks and Rock Salt for sale at September 08, 2015 10:08 AM (kff5f)
139
Posted by: tsrlbke PhD(c), rogue bioethicist at September 08, 2015 09:58 AM (tM4uk)
First, I was responding to Noah's argument which was for a full on invasion.
Second, how long are we going to maintain this No Fly Zone? As you may recall one of the reasons for invading Iraq was that we'd been enforcing No Fly Zones for a decade and it was costing us in manpower and machine wear and tear.
While a NFZ would certainly take some tools, important ones, from Assad, it wouldn't stop the fighting. He would still have tanks and artillery. Also, if you stop Assad from using aircraft, you're helping the al Qaeda and ISIS forces in their fight against him. How's that help us exactly?
First, I was responding to Noah's argument which was for a full on invasion.
Second, how long are we going to maintain this No Fly Zone? As you may recall one of the reasons for invading Iraq was that we'd been enforcing No Fly Zones for a decade and it was costing us in manpower and machine wear and tear.
While a NFZ would certainly take some tools, important ones, from Assad, it wouldn't stop the fighting. He would still have tanks and artillery. Also, if you stop Assad from using aircraft, you're helping the al Qaeda and ISIS forces in their fight against him. How's that help us exactly?
Posted by: DrewM. at September 08, 2015 10:09 AM (tn680)
140
What should "we" do? Let's hope we don't go the gamut of Churchill's quote:
You can always count on Americans to do the right thing - after they've tried everything else.
You can always count on Americans to do the right thing - after they've tried everything else.
Posted by: Oh, Lord, not again at September 08, 2015 10:09 AM (5fXNd)
141
We've basically been fighting against Assad why? The urge to destroy that regime (playing into Daesh hands) is more than insane. Why not divvy it up, send in useless UN peacekeepers and let the whole thing simmer until it becomes the status quo. The obsession with creating a perfect world through constant revolution is insane.
Posted by: Ben H at September 08, 2015 10:09 AM (gJEsZ)
142
Arm the Kurds. For real. Modern weaponry, training and air support.
Anything else is a waste of time and money and American blood.
Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo at September 08, 2015 10:02 AM (adm5B)
That's how I see it. Let's openly play Arsenal of Democracy here. "Okay, you, you're something like a stable nation in an unstable region going to hell. You want to form a Western-style government? Here's guns, go mad, and as soon as you have a stable border and a repayment plan, you get recognition! Or make us a good deal on oil leases and we'll even help develop your infrastructure. Because fuck all your barbarian neighbors in particular."
If it works, we get a new regional ally. If it doesn't work, a bunch of nations that already hate us and will always hate us just get fresh reasons, and are tied up and bloodied for a while to come.
Anything else is a waste of time and money and American blood.
Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo at September 08, 2015 10:02 AM (adm5B)
That's how I see it. Let's openly play Arsenal of Democracy here. "Okay, you, you're something like a stable nation in an unstable region going to hell. You want to form a Western-style government? Here's guns, go mad, and as soon as you have a stable border and a repayment plan, you get recognition! Or make us a good deal on oil leases and we'll even help develop your infrastructure. Because fuck all your barbarian neighbors in particular."
If it works, we get a new regional ally. If it doesn't work, a bunch of nations that already hate us and will always hate us just get fresh reasons, and are tied up and bloodied for a while to come.
Posted by: Cato the Rebel Without a Party at September 08, 2015 10:11 AM (HalrA)
143
"Proud to be German."
It generally gets dozed under, what with those world wars and all, but Germany used to be a real font of religious humanitarianism. They stopped the next plague dead in its tracks in China, after WWI, and "white man's medicine" borne largely by German catholic missionaries doubled the population of Africa.
No unmixed blessings, as many misplaced allegiances and unintended consequences as anyone else in history, but, there's an aspect to the German "national personality" largely overlooked.
You want to be a hard-headed dutchman about it, as they say around here, probably the Germans are more dangerous when they're being nice than when they're being warlike. And sometimes they're being both.
It generally gets dozed under, what with those world wars and all, but Germany used to be a real font of religious humanitarianism. They stopped the next plague dead in its tracks in China, after WWI, and "white man's medicine" borne largely by German catholic missionaries doubled the population of Africa.
No unmixed blessings, as many misplaced allegiances and unintended consequences as anyone else in history, but, there's an aspect to the German "national personality" largely overlooked.
You want to be a hard-headed dutchman about it, as they say around here, probably the Germans are more dangerous when they're being nice than when they're being warlike. And sometimes they're being both.
Posted by: Stringer Davis at September 08, 2015 10:11 AM (xq1UY)
144
You can always identify an impotent organization because they start to rename things for no apparent reason.
Posted by: David Windsor at September 08, 2015 10:11 AM (e8kgV)
145
They can show pictures of dead children 24/7
and I am still out of fucks to give.
=========
I didn't kill them--not my fucking problem.
Their parents killed them, their countrymen killed them.
You want my help? Give me free hand to kill as many as is needed.
You won't, you never will--so fuck off and suffer in the shithole YOU built.
and I am still out of fucks to give.
=========
I didn't kill them--not my fucking problem.
Their parents killed them, their countrymen killed them.
You want my help? Give me free hand to kill as many as is needed.
You won't, you never will--so fuck off and suffer in the shithole YOU built.
Posted by: RoyalOil at September 08, 2015 10:11 AM (ZvKdv)
146
Words are wonderful things. They allow you to organize, end world famine, golf on the moon, investigate gravity. They also can trap you into logical corners quite easily.
The Arab world will be controlled and pacified when we stop trying to think of it as "nations" and instead take an accounting of the "tribes" and their allegiances and immediate hatreds.
The Arab world will be controlled and pacified when we stop trying to think of it as "nations" and instead take an accounting of the "tribes" and their allegiances and immediate hatreds.
Posted by: Jack Hagan at September 08, 2015 10:12 AM (U1iMh)
147
We NEVER should have advocated the overthrow of Assad. STUPID STUPID STUPID
Posted by: Nevergiveup at September 08, 2015 10:12 AM (gf8BH)
148
You want to unite the Arab/Persian world and stop the sunni/shia conflict? Drop US forces in Syria and watch how fast the region Lebonon/Syria/Iraq/Iran will turn their guns from each other towards the "great satan". Ugly doesn't come close to describing how bad it would get.
Posted by: wrg500 at September 08, 2015 10:12 AM (FEAjO)
149
Also, before there can be peace in the Middle East, Iran needs to be bombed into glass.
Posted by: AllenG (DedicatedTenther) - Fire-hooks and Rock Salt for sale at September 08, 2015 10:01 AM (kff5f)
There is a substantial portion of the Iranian population who are very pro-US. I've met a number of Iranians who would like nothing more than to get rid of the ruling religious Imams and install a republic, but they are not the ones controlling the armed forces right now.
I've got a close friend who lives in Tehran, even though he's Indian. His wife now lives in Toronto, and his two daughters in Washington, DC and London. There is a whole segment of the population who are scared to death that their government will go too far, but there is nothing they can do except the occasional demonstration.
It's hard to push the nuke button on these people.
Posted by: AllenG (DedicatedTenther) - Fire-hooks and Rock Salt for sale at September 08, 2015 10:01 AM (kff5f)
There is a substantial portion of the Iranian population who are very pro-US. I've met a number of Iranians who would like nothing more than to get rid of the ruling religious Imams and install a republic, but they are not the ones controlling the armed forces right now.
I've got a close friend who lives in Tehran, even though he's Indian. His wife now lives in Toronto, and his two daughters in Washington, DC and London. There is a whole segment of the population who are scared to death that their government will go too far, but there is nothing they can do except the occasional demonstration.
It's hard to push the nuke button on these people.
Posted by: jwest at September 08, 2015 10:13 AM (Zs4uk)
150
Arm the Kurds. For real. Modern weaponry, training and air support.
Anything else is a waste of time and money and American blood.
Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo at September 08, 2015 10:02 AM (adm5B)
Yup, but instead Fredo is arming Turkey and allowing them to attack the KURDS. We are doing everything wrong and ass backwards and destroying the Middle East for ever
Anything else is a waste of time and money and American blood.
Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo at September 08, 2015 10:02 AM (adm5B)
Yup, but instead Fredo is arming Turkey and allowing them to attack the KURDS. We are doing everything wrong and ass backwards and destroying the Middle East for ever
Posted by: Nevergiveup at September 08, 2015 10:13 AM (gf8BH)
151
We can thank Hillary and her shenanigans w/Sid Blumenthal in Libya:
"Now listen you, people of NATO.
You're bombing a wall which stood in the way of African migration to Europe, and in the way of Al Qaeda terrorists. This wall was Libya. You're breaking it. You're idiots, and you will burn in Hell for thousands of migrants from Africa and for supporting Al Qaeda. It will be so. I never lie. And I do not lie now."
- Gaddafi in 2011
"Now listen you, people of NATO.
You're bombing a wall which stood in the way of African migration to Europe, and in the way of Al Qaeda terrorists. This wall was Libya. You're breaking it. You're idiots, and you will burn in Hell for thousands of migrants from Africa and for supporting Al Qaeda. It will be so. I never lie. And I do not lie now."
- Gaddafi in 2011
Posted by: Lizzy at September 08, 2015 10:13 AM (NOIQH)
152
Not our business. Not our concern.
Posted by: Titus Quinctius Cincinatus at September 08, 2015 10:14 AM (YYJjz)
153
Gaddafi was no threat to us and in fact was a stabilizing influence at the time we decided to overthrow him. STUPID STUPID STUPID
Posted by: Nevergiveup at September 08, 2015 10:15 AM (gf8BH)
154
It's hard to push the nuke button on these people.
Posted by: jwest at September 08, 2015 10:13 AM (Zs4uk)
It is, but it's harder to go in, crush their current leadership, and then *hope* that the Pro-American side takes charge.
That said, "bombed to glass" might have been a bit of an exaggeration.
Posted by: jwest at September 08, 2015 10:13 AM (Zs4uk)
It is, but it's harder to go in, crush their current leadership, and then *hope* that the Pro-American side takes charge.
That said, "bombed to glass" might have been a bit of an exaggeration.
Posted by: AllenG (DedicatedTenther) - Fire-hooks and Rock Salt for sale at September 08, 2015 10:15 AM (kff5f)
155
There is a substantial portion of the Iranian population who are very pro-US.
Y'know, it seems every time we have a mortal foe I hear that same refrain.
You have no possible concept of how sick I am of hearing it.
Y'know, it seems every time we have a mortal foe I hear that same refrain.
You have no possible concept of how sick I am of hearing it.
Posted by: Brother Cavil, down with Eph 6:12-13 at September 08, 2015 10:15 AM (9krrF)
156
Posted by: DrewM. at September 08, 2015 10:09 AM (tn680)
OK, you were responding to Noah's argument, cool beans. But you can at least acknowledge his isn't the only argument.
You're other points are fair. I cut a bit from my comment about how frankly we don't have the wherewithal to maintain a no fly zone for a long period of time without eventually giving into emotion and wanting to do "more."
It is a problem. If we were rational we'd say "our goal is to stop the barrel bombing, nothing more" and hold to that.
Sadly you are right Iraq shows we're incapable of that. (I find the man power and wear and tear arguments unconvincing, it's not like we're not going to hire airmen or use planes absent a NFZ).
I'm actually less concerned about the "helping of al queda and ISIS" because as you note, Assad still has large artillery which gives him a substantial advantage not undercut by the NFZ. The fight I suggest drags out for quite some time (which, you have shown in the past is your real goal, to keep the fight going for as long as possible for casualties on both sides.) But lines must be drawn I believe, and yes Obama whiffed on them because he's a SCOAMF, but I think barrel bombing civilians is one of those lines.
(Whether it stops the migrant flow which is collapsing Europe I honestly do no know yet, but it's likely better than nothing.)
OK, you were responding to Noah's argument, cool beans. But you can at least acknowledge his isn't the only argument.
You're other points are fair. I cut a bit from my comment about how frankly we don't have the wherewithal to maintain a no fly zone for a long period of time without eventually giving into emotion and wanting to do "more."
It is a problem. If we were rational we'd say "our goal is to stop the barrel bombing, nothing more" and hold to that.
Sadly you are right Iraq shows we're incapable of that. (I find the man power and wear and tear arguments unconvincing, it's not like we're not going to hire airmen or use planes absent a NFZ).
I'm actually less concerned about the "helping of al queda and ISIS" because as you note, Assad still has large artillery which gives him a substantial advantage not undercut by the NFZ. The fight I suggest drags out for quite some time (which, you have shown in the past is your real goal, to keep the fight going for as long as possible for casualties on both sides.) But lines must be drawn I believe, and yes Obama whiffed on them because he's a SCOAMF, but I think barrel bombing civilians is one of those lines.
(Whether it stops the migrant flow which is collapsing Europe I honestly do no know yet, but it's likely better than nothing.)
Posted by: tsrlbke PhD(c), rogue bioethicist at September 08, 2015 10:15 AM (tM4uk)
157
Not our business. Not our concern.
Posted by: Titus Quinctius Cincinatus at September 08, 2015 10:14 AM (YYJjz)
IT CERTAINLY IS . We are witnessing the downfall of Europe and the next wave will crash against our shores
Posted by: Titus Quinctius Cincinatus at September 08, 2015 10:14 AM (YYJjz)
IT CERTAINLY IS . We are witnessing the downfall of Europe and the next wave will crash against our shores
Posted by: Nevergiveup at September 08, 2015 10:16 AM (gf8BH)
158
136
The only way to possibly create a western-style nation would be decades of colonialism, where we stamp out their current belief systems and replace it with more western-style beliefs.
Posted by: Monkeytoe at September 08, 2015 10:08 AM (3ZtZW)
First we need to do that with our own educational system.
The only way to possibly create a western-style nation would be decades of colonialism, where we stamp out their current belief systems and replace it with more western-style beliefs.
Posted by: Monkeytoe at September 08, 2015 10:08 AM (3ZtZW)
First we need to do that with our own educational system.
Posted by: rickl at September 08, 2015 10:16 AM (zoehZ)
Posted by: Jack Hagan at September 08, 2015 10:16 AM (U1iMh)
160
I've got a close friend who lives in Tehran, even
though he's Indian. His wife now lives in Toronto, and his two daughters
in Washington, DC and London. There is a whole segment of the
population who are scared to death that their government will go too
far, but there is nothing they can do except the occasional
demonstration.
It's hard to push the nuke button on these people.
Posted by: jwest at September 08, 2015 10:13 AM (Zs4uk)
There's always going to be good people in any terrible country. Even during WWII, there were good Germans who were against Hitler. Doesn't mean you don't bomb Germany.
Obviously, there are not enough of these "good Iranians" (or, if there is a "silent majority" they are not brave enough to take control of their country) to stop the bad Iranians.
I'm not saying we have to nuke Iran. I'm just saying "but there are some good people there too" is not an argument when talking about enemy states. Of course there are some good people there amongst the bad people.
though he's Indian. His wife now lives in Toronto, and his two daughters
in Washington, DC and London. There is a whole segment of the
population who are scared to death that their government will go too
far, but there is nothing they can do except the occasional
demonstration.
It's hard to push the nuke button on these people.
Posted by: jwest at September 08, 2015 10:13 AM (Zs4uk)
There's always going to be good people in any terrible country. Even during WWII, there were good Germans who were against Hitler. Doesn't mean you don't bomb Germany.
Obviously, there are not enough of these "good Iranians" (or, if there is a "silent majority" they are not brave enough to take control of their country) to stop the bad Iranians.
I'm not saying we have to nuke Iran. I'm just saying "but there are some good people there too" is not an argument when talking about enemy states. Of course there are some good people there amongst the bad people.
Posted by: Monkeytoe at September 08, 2015 10:17 AM (3ZtZW)
161
John Titor was right!
Posted by: Titus Quinctius Cincinnatus at September 08, 2015 10:17 AM (YYJjz)
162
A pocket guide to understanding Arabs:
Me against my brother.
Me and my brother against our cousin.
Me and my brother and my cousin against the next tribe.
Me and my brother and my cousin and the next tribe against the foreigner.
Me against my brother.
Me and my brother against our cousin.
Me and my brother and my cousin against the next tribe.
Me and my brother and my cousin and the next tribe against the foreigner.
Posted by: torquewrench at September 08, 2015 10:17 AM (noWW6)
163
Let's see if I understand Rothman. A little boy drowns because his father, who has had his family safely set up in Turkey for three years, decides that he wants free dental care in Germany. Therefore we owe it to the boy to go to war in Syria.
You first, Noah.
You first, Noah.
Posted by: Emmett Milbarge at September 08, 2015 10:17 AM (nFdGS)
Posted by: BackwardsBoy at September 08, 2015 10:17 AM (LUgeY)
165
>>IT CERTAINLY IS . We are witnessing the downfall of Europe and the next wave will crash against our shores
Will it become our concern when the terrorists burn down the Vatican? Notre Dame? London, Paris, Rome, Brussels, etc.?
Will it become our concern when the terrorists burn down the Vatican? Notre Dame? London, Paris, Rome, Brussels, etc.?
Posted by: Lizzy at September 08, 2015 10:17 AM (NOIQH)
Posted by: dananjcon at September 08, 2015 10:17 AM (NpXoL)
167
IT CERTAINLY IS . We are witnessing the downfall of Europe and the next wave will crash against our shores
Posted by: Nevergiveup
Our govt is already talking about taking 65k of them.
Posted by: Nevergiveup
Our govt is already talking about taking 65k of them.
Posted by: wrg500 at September 08, 2015 10:18 AM (FEAjO)
168
And now I'm getting a maxipad advertisement. In Spanish, no less.
Posted by: Insomniac at September 08, 2015 09:48 AM (2Ojst)
You don't come here for the hunting, do you.
Posted by: Insomniac at September 08, 2015 09:48 AM (2Ojst)
You don't come here for the hunting, do you.
Posted by: jwpaine, otherized for your protection at September 08, 2015 10:18 AM (wKcQA)
169
And until they--the world and the US press--blame Obama for this: I'll still be over here not giving any fucks.
Posted by: RoyalOil at September 08, 2015 10:18 AM (ZvKdv)
170
"if you are a British member of ISIS, expect a door knock from Mr Reaper..."
http://goo.gl/YZdQXO
Wham! Bam! Thank you, Cam!
"if you are a British member of ISIS, expect a door knock from Mr Reaper..."
http://goo.gl/YZdQXO
Wham! Bam! Thank you, Cam!
Posted by: Bruce With a Wang! at September 08, 2015 10:19 AM (iQIUe)
171
Kill the messenger. Is Israel worse or better off since Obama inspired Arab Spring and the oops I broke Libya, Iraq, Yemen and Syria? Obviously better off. And good for them. Intelligence should win out. Just don't pretend like these geostrat moves were random or organic. They weren't. Why isn't Obama mire broke up about the Mo Bros getting axed in Egypt and replaced with a US Army College grad in Al Sisi?
Well DOH. Obama never stood with the Mo Bros. He set them up for failure. We knew true believers sucked at filling potholes and picking up trash.
Well DOH. Obama never stood with the Mo Bros. He set them up for failure. We knew true believers sucked at filling potholes and picking up trash.
Posted by: sadeyesteve at September 08, 2015 10:19 AM (jnIZ9)
172
Our govt is already talking about taking 65k of them.
Posted by: wrg500 at September 08, 2015 10:18 AM (FEAjO)
Over my dead body...oh wait I forgot who our leaders are in the Senate and House..never mind
As long as Fredo is in the White House this tread and all arguments are just masturbation
Posted by: wrg500 at September 08, 2015 10:18 AM (FEAjO)
Over my dead body...oh wait I forgot who our leaders are in the Senate and House..never mind
As long as Fredo is in the White House this tread and all arguments are just masturbation
Posted by: Nevergiveup at September 08, 2015 10:20 AM (gf8BH)
173
Obviously, there are not enough of these "good Iranians" (or, if there is a "silent majority" they are not brave enough to take control of their country) to stop the bad Iranians.
Actually (and as weird as this is for me to say it) I'm kind of with jwest on this one. We know there is (or was) a very large pro-American force in Iran. Twice in the last decade or so they've tried to rise up against their leaders. Twice we failed to help them. Why would they try again? They don't have weapons, they don't have training, and the people who keep asking them to get themselves killed offer nothing more than platitudes and "moral support."
IF you could get a new revolution started in Iran and IF you would then actually support that revolution with materiel (and, yes, men), THEN I think you could get a pro-American quasi-democracy in the Middle East.
Those are two huge "ifs" though, and I don't think we can bet on either of those happening.
Actually (and as weird as this is for me to say it) I'm kind of with jwest on this one. We know there is (or was) a very large pro-American force in Iran. Twice in the last decade or so they've tried to rise up against their leaders. Twice we failed to help them. Why would they try again? They don't have weapons, they don't have training, and the people who keep asking them to get themselves killed offer nothing more than platitudes and "moral support."
IF you could get a new revolution started in Iran and IF you would then actually support that revolution with materiel (and, yes, men), THEN I think you could get a pro-American quasi-democracy in the Middle East.
Those are two huge "ifs" though, and I don't think we can bet on either of those happening.
Posted by: AllenG (DedicatedTenther) - Fire-hooks and Rock Salt for sale at September 08, 2015 10:20 AM (kff5f)
174
"Now listen you, people of NATO.
You're bombing a wall which stood in the way of African migration to
Europe, and in the way of Al Qaeda terrorists. This wall was Libya.
You're breaking it. You're idiots, and you will burn in Hell for
thousands of migrants from Africa and for supporting Al Qaeda. It will
be so. I never lie. And I do not lie now."
- Gaddafi in 2011
Posted by: Lizzy at September 08, 2015 10:13 AM (NOIQH)
Gadhafi was certainly nuts beyond a doubt, but he was that special kind of crazy that was sometimes brilliant at the same time. I read a few years back about how one of his vanity projects that nobody thought would ever work was paying huge dividends. Libya basically sits on top of a small ocean of fresh water that's thousands of feet deep. His crazy project was to drill it, pump it, and pretty much provide his desert country with enough water to make it a garden. It was only about half complete at the time of his death, but it might have transformed the country if it hadn't started descending into civil war. It's hard to build good infrastructure when everyone's blowing everything to hell.
You're bombing a wall which stood in the way of African migration to
Europe, and in the way of Al Qaeda terrorists. This wall was Libya.
You're breaking it. You're idiots, and you will burn in Hell for
thousands of migrants from Africa and for supporting Al Qaeda. It will
be so. I never lie. And I do not lie now."
- Gaddafi in 2011
Posted by: Lizzy at September 08, 2015 10:13 AM (NOIQH)
Gadhafi was certainly nuts beyond a doubt, but he was that special kind of crazy that was sometimes brilliant at the same time. I read a few years back about how one of his vanity projects that nobody thought would ever work was paying huge dividends. Libya basically sits on top of a small ocean of fresh water that's thousands of feet deep. His crazy project was to drill it, pump it, and pretty much provide his desert country with enough water to make it a garden. It was only about half complete at the time of his death, but it might have transformed the country if it hadn't started descending into civil war. It's hard to build good infrastructure when everyone's blowing everything to hell.
Posted by: Cato the Rebel Without a Party at September 08, 2015 10:20 AM (HalrA)
175
Assad is losing in Syria. It can't go on much longer. The Islamic State is in Damascus, and after Damascus Assad has nothing left but a guerilla operation.
Whatever Iran and Russia are doing in Syria, it isn't enough.
That might well be the reason the mass migration of people out of North Africa has increased. Assad is going down, and the Islamic state is pre positioning forces for the next stage of their campaign.
Whatever Iran and Russia are doing in Syria, it isn't enough.
That might well be the reason the mass migration of people out of North Africa has increased. Assad is going down, and the Islamic state is pre positioning forces for the next stage of their campaign.
Posted by: Gustapha Karmakov at September 08, 2015 10:20 AM (DJKAF)
176
Will it stop the war, no, but it stands to stop some of the most horrendous aspects of it.
Posted by: tsrlbke PhD(c), rogue bioethicist at September 08, 2015 09:58 AM (tM4uk)
It will just drag things out. When has making war less horrendous ever made things better in the long run? Especially a war where the losers are going to pay with their lives.
Posted by: tsrlbke PhD(c), rogue bioethicist at September 08, 2015 09:58 AM (tM4uk)
It will just drag things out. When has making war less horrendous ever made things better in the long run? Especially a war where the losers are going to pay with their lives.
Posted by: WOPR at September 08, 2015 10:20 AM (EAIbg)
177
Iran is a pissant country with the GDP of Dallas-Fort Worth. Almost all derived from a commodity that must be sold abroad and shipped by tanker or exposed pipeline. If we declared an actual State of Hostilities, we could break their government in six months without setting a boot on the ground there.
Posted by: Grump928(c) Lord of the Dance at September 08, 2015 10:20 AM (evdj2)
178
First we need to do that with our own educational system.
Posted by: rickl at September 08, 2015 10:16 AM (zoehZ)
Good point.
Off Topic - can someone explain why I can't get paragraphs in comments here? I hit return 2 or 3 times between paragraphs and everything still comes out as one paragraph. The formatting here is the worst for comments of any site I've been to. Granted, I'm not html savvy, but still.
Posted by: rickl at September 08, 2015 10:16 AM (zoehZ)
Good point.
Off Topic - can someone explain why I can't get paragraphs in comments here? I hit return 2 or 3 times between paragraphs and everything still comes out as one paragraph. The formatting here is the worst for comments of any site I've been to. Granted, I'm not html savvy, but still.
Posted by: Monkeytoe at September 08, 2015 10:20 AM (3ZtZW)
179
It is too late to do anything in Syria. Our best bet is to stay tight with our allies. Oh yeah, TFG is in the WH our allies be damned.
Posted by: Misanthropic Humanitarian at September 08, 2015 10:21 AM (+c55T)
180
Can't we just invade, steal their oil (and anything else of value), then leave? Who's gonna stop us?
Posted by: Strawman J. Neocon at September 08, 2015 10:21 AM (zgHLA)
181
Stay busy, boys!
Posted by: CHICOMS swimming in the South China Sea at September 08, 2015 10:21 AM (DhpXG)
182
Turkey should have been thrown out of NATO when they wouldn't allow that heavy division invade Iraq from the North. The Fourth ID IIRC.
Posted by: Boss Moss at September 08, 2015 10:21 AM (fjaeZ)
183
Assad is losing in Syria. It can't go on much longer. The Islamic State is in Damascus, and after Damascus Assad has nothing left but a guerilla operation.
Whatever Iran and Russia are doing in Syria, it isn't enough.
That might well be the reason the mass migration of people out of North Africa has increased. Assad is going down, and the Islamic state is pre positioning forces for the next stage of their campaign.
Posted by: Gustapha Karmakov at September 08, 2015 10:20 AM (DJKAF)
I suggest you read some news. The Russians are moving into Syria Lock stock and Barrel
Whatever Iran and Russia are doing in Syria, it isn't enough.
That might well be the reason the mass migration of people out of North Africa has increased. Assad is going down, and the Islamic state is pre positioning forces for the next stage of their campaign.
Posted by: Gustapha Karmakov at September 08, 2015 10:20 AM (DJKAF)
I suggest you read some news. The Russians are moving into Syria Lock stock and Barrel
Posted by: Nevergiveup at September 08, 2015 10:21 AM (gf8BH)
184
Posted by: DrewM. at September 08, 2015 10:09 AM (tn680)
The problem is that there is no end game that makes any sense. Support Assad....fight Assad. They are both bad.
The only rational behavior is to support our allies and trust them to do the correct thing.
Israel and the Kurds, with a bit of lip service paid to Jordan.
And, of course, that won't happen, so all I hope for is for us to do nothing.
The problem is that there is no end game that makes any sense. Support Assad....fight Assad. They are both bad.
The only rational behavior is to support our allies and trust them to do the correct thing.
Israel and the Kurds, with a bit of lip service paid to Jordan.
And, of course, that won't happen, so all I hope for is for us to do nothing.
Posted by: CBD at September 08, 2015 10:22 AM (adm5B)
185
Turkey should have been thrown out of NATO when they wouldn't allow that heavy division invade Iraq from the North. The Fourth ID IIRC.
Posted by: Boss Moss at September 08, 2015 10:21 AM (fjaeZ)
Fuckin A...Damn Right!
Posted by: Boss Moss at September 08, 2015 10:21 AM (fjaeZ)
Fuckin A...Damn Right!
Posted by: Nevergiveup at September 08, 2015 10:22 AM (gf8BH)
186
Granted, I'm not html savvy, but still.
Posted by: Monkeytoe at September 08, 201
Looking to be banned? Ha
Posted by: Monkeytoe at September 08, 201
Looking to be banned? Ha
Posted by: Misanthropic Humanitarian at September 08, 2015 10:22 AM (+c55T)
187
The lines of refugees should be divided. Women and children (and the infirm)to the left. Military aged males to the right. One gets temporary assistance. The other gets training and equipment. Training of the sort we undertook in the first couple episodes of Band of Brothers. Then we give them transport to fight for their homelands so that the women and children can return home. This is the only humane course. Both to accept all the refugees or to turn them all away is to abandon millions to a terrible fate.
Posted by: f2000 at September 08, 2015 10:22 AM (5xwgn)
188
Off Topic - can someone explain why I can't get paragraphs in comments here?
Minx 0.7 alpha.
Probably your browser isn't playing with sufficiently kid gloves.
Minx 0.7 alpha.
Probably your browser isn't playing with sufficiently kid gloves.
Posted by: AllenG (DedicatedTenther) - Fire-hooks and Rock Salt for sale at September 08, 2015 10:22 AM (kff5f)
189
158 136
The only way to possibly create a western-style nation would be decades of colonialism, where we stamp out their current belief systems and replace it with more western-style beliefs.
Posted by: Monkeytoe at September 08, 2015 10:08 AM (3ZtZW)
This is correct. I'm pro-colonialism and believe that every time we look at going in to a country, we should plan on a minimum 50 year commitment.
Actually, the 100 year model the British used in Hong Kong is the way to go.
The only way to possibly create a western-style nation would be decades of colonialism, where we stamp out their current belief systems and replace it with more western-style beliefs.
Posted by: Monkeytoe at September 08, 2015 10:08 AM (3ZtZW)
This is correct. I'm pro-colonialism and believe that every time we look at going in to a country, we should plan on a minimum 50 year commitment.
Actually, the 100 year model the British used in Hong Kong is the way to go.
Posted by: jwest at September 08, 2015 10:23 AM (Zs4uk)
190
Iraq...Egypt...Libya...
Recent revolutions, uprisings and nation-buildings have led to more instability, not less. And now, migrants and refugees flooding Europe. (Italy has been dealing with this from Libya for awhile now.)
Germany announced it will take in a half-million "migrants" per year, and tells its people to 'STFU Germany is changing. Deal with it.' Sounds familiar.
Iraq...Egypt...Libya...
Recent revolutions, uprisings and nation-buildings have led to more instability, not less. And now, migrants and refugees flooding Europe. (Italy has been dealing with this from Libya for awhile now.)
Germany announced it will take in a half-million "migrants" per year, and tells its people to 'STFU Germany is changing. Deal with it.' Sounds familiar.
Posted by: CJ at September 08, 2015 10:23 AM (9KqcB)
191
>>>There is a substantial portion of the Iranian population who are very pro-US.
Pro Obama-US? That would include Ayatollah Khamenei as well.
All these fit young men in the ME, instead of fighting for reform or fighting the enemies attacking them, are instead opting to commit jihad by immigration. And the good natured, big hearted, delusional, naive west is being conned into its own destruction.
Pro Obama-US? That would include Ayatollah Khamenei as well.
All these fit young men in the ME, instead of fighting for reform or fighting the enemies attacking them, are instead opting to commit jihad by immigration. And the good natured, big hearted, delusional, naive west is being conned into its own destruction.
Posted by: Caitlyn Jenner at September 08, 2015 10:24 AM (E5UB0)
192
I suggest you read some news. The Russians are moving into Syria Lock stock and Barrel
Posted by: Nevergiveup at September 08, 2015 10:21 AM (gf8BH)
I'll bet you a case of your favorite beer that Assad goes down before we have a new president. Name your favorite stakeholder and I'll send them an Amazon Gift card to hold in escrow.
Posted by: Nevergiveup at September 08, 2015 10:21 AM (gf8BH)
I'll bet you a case of your favorite beer that Assad goes down before we have a new president. Name your favorite stakeholder and I'll send them an Amazon Gift card to hold in escrow.
Posted by: Gustapha Karmakov at September 08, 2015 10:25 AM (DJKAF)
193
Well DOH. Obama never stood with the Mo Bros. He set them up for failure. We knew true believers sucked at filling potholes and picking up trash.
What? Those goatfuckers are all over the place and holding high positions in Washington. Huma Abedin's family is even in it.
Got any more of that good stuff you're smoking?
What? Those goatfuckers are all over the place and holding high positions in Washington. Huma Abedin's family is even in it.
Got any more of that good stuff you're smoking?
Posted by: BackwardsBoy at September 08, 2015 10:25 AM (LUgeY)
194
Both to accept all the refugees or to turn them all away is to abandon millions to a terrible fate.
Posted by: f2000 at September 08, 2015 10:22 AM (5xwgn)
And if you accept them, you're enriching the human traffickers and terrorists. There's nothing moral about it, it's enabling inhumanity.
Posted by: f2000 at September 08, 2015 10:22 AM (5xwgn)
And if you accept them, you're enriching the human traffickers and terrorists. There's nothing moral about it, it's enabling inhumanity.
Posted by: Cato the Rebel Without a Party at September 08, 2015 10:25 AM (HalrA)
195
I suggest you read some news. The Russians are moving into Syria Lock stock and Barrel
Posted by: Nevergiveup
Things are lining up nicely for the Ezekiel prophecy.
Posted by: Nevergiveup
Things are lining up nicely for the Ezekiel prophecy.
Posted by: wrg500 at September 08, 2015 10:26 AM (FEAjO)
196
Actually, the 100 year model the British used in Hong Kong is the way to go.
Posted by: jwest at September 08, 2015 10:23 AM (Zs4uk)
Except if it's a functional and vibrant society, we don't just turn it over to some shithole like China, we let it apply for statehood.
Posted by: jwest at September 08, 2015 10:23 AM (Zs4uk)
Except if it's a functional and vibrant society, we don't just turn it over to some shithole like China, we let it apply for statehood.
Posted by: Cato the Rebel Without a Party at September 08, 2015 10:26 AM (HalrA)
197
Are you kidding me?
I was happy to give as good as I got. Now I have to watch myself or else I could be banned.
That would be the most HQ thing ever....banned from commenting but free to post on the main page.
It could go the other way....
I was happy to give as good as I got. Now I have to watch myself or else I could be banned.
That would be the most HQ thing ever....banned from commenting but free to post on the main page.
It could go the other way....
Posted by: Weirddave at September 08, 2015 10:26 AM (WvS3w)
198
(I find the man power and wear and tear arguments unconvincing, it's not like we're not going to hire airmen or use planes absent a NFZ).
Posted by: tsrlbke PhD(c), rogue bioethicist at September 08, 2015 10:15 AM (tM4uk)
Given the age of our tactical air fleet in both the Navy and Air Force it's a far more serious concern than it was in the 90s with Iraq.
Posted by: tsrlbke PhD(c), rogue bioethicist at September 08, 2015 10:15 AM (tM4uk)
Given the age of our tactical air fleet in both the Navy and Air Force it's a far more serious concern than it was in the 90s with Iraq.
Posted by: DrewM. at September 08, 2015 10:26 AM (tn680)
199
I am only partly joking when I say pick a remote piece of desert and detonate the biggest nuke we have. Light up the night sky like a thousand Suns. Just so they know what it looks like.
Posted by: Dave, exiled in RI at September 08, 2015 10:26 AM (dK9vn)
200
I'll bet you a case of your favorite beer that Assad goes down before we have a new president. Name your favorite stakeholder and I'll send them an Amazon Gift card to hold in escrow.
Posted by: Gustapha Karmakov at September 08, 2015 10:25 AM (DJKAF)
Assad was suppose to go down in months 5 years ago. And the Russians want Syria for a base. Ain't happening
Posted by: Gustapha Karmakov at September 08, 2015 10:25 AM (DJKAF)
Assad was suppose to go down in months 5 years ago. And the Russians want Syria for a base. Ain't happening
Posted by: Nevergiveup at September 08, 2015 10:27 AM (gf8BH)
201
Actually (and as weird as this is for me to say it)
I'm kind of with jwest on this one. We know there is (or was) a very
large pro-American force in Iran. Twice in the last decade or so
they've tried to rise up against their leaders. Twice we failed to help
them. Why would they try again? They don't have weapons, they don't
have training, and the people who keep asking them to get themselves
killed offer nothing more than platitudes and "moral support."
IF you could get a new revolution started in Iran and IF you would
then actually support that revolution with materiel (and, yes, men),
THEN I think you could get a pro-American quasi-democracy in the Middle
East.
Those are two huge "ifs" though, and I don't think we can bet on either of those happening.
Posted by: AllenG (DedicatedTenther) - Fire-hooks and Rock Salt for sale at September 08, 2015 10:20 AM (kff5f)
I'm not sure you can claim that an anti-current gov't is necessarily "pro American". We saw anti gov't revolutions in a number of arab nations that led to worse gov'ts. You are assuming that everyone involved in an anti-gov't demonstration was "pro American" or "pro western". That is a false hope based on little facts.
As far as "revolution", I think we've seen that "moderate" forces very rarely can stand up to the fundamentalist forces in this region. Because typically, the people making up the moderates are not as passionate, not as willing to die, etc. We are essentially hoping for a group of people akin to the American revolutionaries, willing to die, risk life and limb, for the idea of liberty. I think we have seen that the "moderates" in the region simply don't have the a) numbers or b) (to be callous) "stones" to accomplish this. And, there is always fragmentation amongst the various "moderate" factions, which means even the limited # of moderates you do have are divided. So, hoping for an Iranian moderate, pro-American revolution seems delusional to me. It was the same thinking as believing the Iraqis would love us after we toppled Saddam (and, to be fair, I believed that at the time).
Regardless, it does not in any way refute my point. there are going to be good people in any "bad country", which is not an argument against bombing said country if need be. Again, I'm not saying "nuke Iran", just saying the argument that "but there are good people there" is meaningless. There are good people everywhere.
I'm kind of with jwest on this one. We know there is (or was) a very
large pro-American force in Iran. Twice in the last decade or so
they've tried to rise up against their leaders. Twice we failed to help
them. Why would they try again? They don't have weapons, they don't
have training, and the people who keep asking them to get themselves
killed offer nothing more than platitudes and "moral support."
IF you could get a new revolution started in Iran and IF you would
then actually support that revolution with materiel (and, yes, men),
THEN I think you could get a pro-American quasi-democracy in the Middle
East.
Those are two huge "ifs" though, and I don't think we can bet on either of those happening.
Posted by: AllenG (DedicatedTenther) - Fire-hooks and Rock Salt for sale at September 08, 2015 10:20 AM (kff5f)
I'm not sure you can claim that an anti-current gov't is necessarily "pro American". We saw anti gov't revolutions in a number of arab nations that led to worse gov'ts. You are assuming that everyone involved in an anti-gov't demonstration was "pro American" or "pro western". That is a false hope based on little facts.
As far as "revolution", I think we've seen that "moderate" forces very rarely can stand up to the fundamentalist forces in this region. Because typically, the people making up the moderates are not as passionate, not as willing to die, etc. We are essentially hoping for a group of people akin to the American revolutionaries, willing to die, risk life and limb, for the idea of liberty. I think we have seen that the "moderates" in the region simply don't have the a) numbers or b) (to be callous) "stones" to accomplish this. And, there is always fragmentation amongst the various "moderate" factions, which means even the limited # of moderates you do have are divided. So, hoping for an Iranian moderate, pro-American revolution seems delusional to me. It was the same thinking as believing the Iraqis would love us after we toppled Saddam (and, to be fair, I believed that at the time).
Regardless, it does not in any way refute my point. there are going to be good people in any "bad country", which is not an argument against bombing said country if need be. Again, I'm not saying "nuke Iran", just saying the argument that "but there are good people there" is meaningless. There are good people everywhere.
Posted by: Monkeytoe at September 08, 2015 10:27 AM (3ZtZW)
202
>>Actually, the 100 year model the British used in Hong Kong is the way to go
Well, that and an intensive Voucher Program!
Well, that and an intensive Voucher Program!
Posted by: Garrett at September 08, 2015 10:28 AM (ZHZBE)
203
We should leave the Middle East.
Posted by: Boss Moss at September 08, 2015 10:28 AM (fjaeZ)
204
Isn't taking care of refugees one of the functions of the UN? I remember the UN used to set up refugee camps to help people fleeing from war. Hell, some Palestinians have been in camps for what, 40 years?
The UN should set up refugee camps in Africa to hold the refugees until whatever they're fleeing from is resolved.
The UN should set up refugee camps in Africa to hold the refugees until whatever they're fleeing from is resolved.
Posted by: Marmo, clearance sale at the Pixel Palace, all 2015 models must go at September 08, 2015 10:28 AM (QW+AD)
205
Posted by: Monkeytoe at September 08, 2015 10:27 AM (3ZtZW)
You can't get any worse than current Iran, unless you have current Iran with The Bomb. Almost any change they could make would be an improvement, or at worst, just delay their nuclear program due to the leadership change and purges.
You can't get any worse than current Iran, unless you have current Iran with The Bomb. Almost any change they could make would be an improvement, or at worst, just delay their nuclear program due to the leadership change and purges.
Posted by: Cato the Rebel Without a Party at September 08, 2015 10:29 AM (HalrA)
206
Assad was suppose to go down in months 5 years ago. And the Russians want Syria for a base. Ain't happening
Hell, the Russians could take out Assad and keep Syria for the base they want.
Hell, the Russians could take out Assad and keep Syria for the base they want.
Posted by: Gustapha Karmakov at September 08, 2015 10:29 AM (DJKAF)
207
We should leave the Middle East.
Posted by: Boss Moss at September 08, 2015 10:28 AM (fjaeZ)
But the Middle East will never leave us.
Posted by: Boss Moss at September 08, 2015 10:28 AM (fjaeZ)
But the Middle East will never leave us.
Posted by: Nevergiveup at September 08, 2015 10:29 AM (gf8BH)
Posted by: Buzzsaw at September 08, 2015 10:29 AM (XtAzU)
209
2nd Division - Allepo, Tikrit, Qom, Tehran, Islamabad. Maybe we missed an opportunity to make it a bigger problem there W.
Posted by: DaveA at September 08, 2015 10:29 AM (DL2i+)
210
The UN should set up refugee camps in Africa to hold the refugees until whatever they're fleeing from is resolved.
Posted by: Marmo, clearance sale at the Pixel Palace, all 2015 models must go at September 08, 2015 10:28 AM (QW+AD)
The problem with that is that the USA takes in 70% of UN refugees. Think about that.
Posted by: Marmo, clearance sale at the Pixel Palace, all 2015 models must go at September 08, 2015 10:28 AM (QW+AD)
The problem with that is that the USA takes in 70% of UN refugees. Think about that.
Posted by: Cato the Rebel Without a Party at September 08, 2015 10:30 AM (HalrA)
211
The lines of refugees should be divided. Women and children (and the infirm)to the left. Military aged males to the right. One gets temporary assistance. The other gets training and equipment. Training of the sort we undertook in the first couple episodes of Band of Brothers. Then we give them transport to fight for their homelands so that the women and children can return home. This is the only humane course. Both to accept all the refugees or to turn them all away is to abandon millions to a terrible fate.
Posted by: f2000 at September 08, 2015 10:22 AM (5xwgn)
___________
Send the military-aged men back to their own countries with a rifle and camping supplies. Your own country, if you can keep it.
This Trojan Horse 'refugee' situation has been out of hand for a long time.
Posted by: f2000 at September 08, 2015 10:22 AM (5xwgn)
___________
Send the military-aged men back to their own countries with a rifle and camping supplies. Your own country, if you can keep it.
This Trojan Horse 'refugee' situation has been out of hand for a long time.
Posted by: mustbequantum at September 08, 2015 10:30 AM (MIKMs)
212
Apropos of nothing, I used to argue that Israel should pay Palestinians to move away. The further away, the bigger the bounty.
Posted by: Grump928(c) Lord of the Dance at September 08, 2015 10:30 AM (evdj2)
213
Prove to me we have six time a day rug huggers in high places of the US Govt. I call bullshit. Huma and the gang are secular socialists. She's married to a Weiner for Gods sake.
And while I'm at it, the Administration is letting BLM go on because BLM is driving away blacks from militancy, not to it.
And while I'm at it, the Administration is letting BLM go on because BLM is driving away blacks from militancy, not to it.
Posted by: sadeyesteve at September 08, 2015 10:31 AM (jnIZ9)
214
Minx 0.7 alpha.
Probably your browser isn't playing with sufficiently kid gloves.
Posted by: AllenG (DedicatedTenther) - Fire-hooks and Rock Salt for sale at September 08, 2015 10:22 AM (kff5f)
OK. I don't know what this means. Is there anything I can actually do to format my comments better? I use the latest version of Firefox.
Probably your browser isn't playing with sufficiently kid gloves.
Posted by: AllenG (DedicatedTenther) - Fire-hooks and Rock Salt for sale at September 08, 2015 10:22 AM (kff5f)
OK. I don't know what this means. Is there anything I can actually do to format my comments better? I use the latest version of Firefox.
Posted by: Monkeytoe at September 08, 2015 10:31 AM (3ZtZW)
215
Hungarian Bishop knows what's up:
"They're not refugees. This is an invasion," said Bishop Laszlo Kiss-Rigo, whose dominion stretches across the southern reaches of this predominantly Catholic nation. "They come here with cries of 'Allahu Akbar.' They want to take over."
"They're not refugees. This is an invasion," said Bishop Laszlo Kiss-Rigo, whose dominion stretches across the southern reaches of this predominantly Catholic nation. "They come here with cries of 'Allahu Akbar.' They want to take over."
Posted by: Lizzy at September 08, 2015 10:31 AM (NOIQH)
216
"We should leave the Middle East."
We now live on Planet Middle East.
All of the crazy ethnicities, ideologies, polities and religions of the Middle East have been distributed from pole to pole. It just gets worse from here on out.
We now live on Planet Middle East.
All of the crazy ethnicities, ideologies, polities and religions of the Middle East have been distributed from pole to pole. It just gets worse from here on out.
Posted by: torquewrench at September 08, 2015 10:32 AM (noWW6)
217
Too bad "that boy's" picture was staged, and his father's sob story is full of holes....
Nothing like being manipulated by the media for phony outrage.
Nothing like being manipulated by the media for phony outrage.
Posted by: Teresa in Fort Worth, TX at September 08, 2015 10:32 AM (pXqOq)
218
"Send the military-aged men back to their own countries with a rifle and camping supplies. "
The men are doing just the opposite. They are leaving their daughters and their sisters and their wives behind while the men move to Europe.
The men are doing just the opposite. They are leaving their daughters and their sisters and their wives behind while the men move to Europe.
Posted by: Gustapha Karmakov at September 08, 2015 10:32 AM (DJKAF)
219
They're fluoridating ice cream, for god's sakes. Kids icecream!!
Posted by: Grump928(c) Lord of the Dance at September 08, 2015 10:32 AM (evdj2)
220
215 Hungarian Bishop knows what's up:
"They're not refugees. This is an invasion," said Bishop Laszlo Kiss-Rigo, whose dominion stretches across the southern reaches of this predominantly Catholic nation. "They come here with cries of 'Allahu Akbar.' They want to take over."
Posted by: Lizzy at September 08, 2015 10:31 AM (NOIQH)
Smart man. I hope he can find enough people to listen to him.
"They're not refugees. This is an invasion," said Bishop Laszlo Kiss-Rigo, whose dominion stretches across the southern reaches of this predominantly Catholic nation. "They come here with cries of 'Allahu Akbar.' They want to take over."
Posted by: Lizzy at September 08, 2015 10:31 AM (NOIQH)
Smart man. I hope he can find enough people to listen to him.
Posted by: Insomniac at September 08, 2015 10:33 AM (2Ojst)
221
I'll bet you a case of your favorite beer that Assad goes down before we have a new president.
Posted by: Gustapha Karmakov
_____________________
I'll bet you a case of beer that my favorite president goes down several hundred more times before we have a new president.
Posted by: Gustapha Karmakov
_____________________
I'll bet you a case of beer that my favorite president goes down several hundred more times before we have a new president.
Posted by: Reggie Love at September 08, 2015 10:33 AM (UlJ3l)
222
>>Nothing like being manipulated by the media for phony outrage.
This Bookworm post is great - essentially, in every crisis the kids die first. So whose kids are you going to protect - theirs or ours?
http://www.bookwormroom.com/
This Bookworm post is great - essentially, in every crisis the kids die first. So whose kids are you going to protect - theirs or ours?
http://www.bookwormroom.com/
Posted by: Lizzy at September 08, 2015 10:34 AM (NOIQH)
223
You can't get any worse than current Iran, unless
you have current Iran with The Bomb. Almost any change they could make
would be an improvement, or at worst, just delay their nuclear program
due to the leadership change and purges.
Posted by: Cato the Rebel Without a Party at September 08, 2015 10:29 AM (HalrA)
I don't disagree. I'm not against a revolution in Iran, just saying that believing any such revolution would automatically end up with a pro-American, western-style gov't seems delusional at best. We could just as easily end up with an even more Islamist gov't. Or, a similar gov't just run by a different faction. The U.S. can't base its decisions on some vague hope that a revolution will end up with Iran's version of George Washington in charge.
you have current Iran with The Bomb. Almost any change they could make
would be an improvement, or at worst, just delay their nuclear program
due to the leadership change and purges.
Posted by: Cato the Rebel Without a Party at September 08, 2015 10:29 AM (HalrA)
I don't disagree. I'm not against a revolution in Iran, just saying that believing any such revolution would automatically end up with a pro-American, western-style gov't seems delusional at best. We could just as easily end up with an even more Islamist gov't. Or, a similar gov't just run by a different faction. The U.S. can't base its decisions on some vague hope that a revolution will end up with Iran's version of George Washington in charge.
Posted by: Monkeytoe at September 08, 2015 10:34 AM (3ZtZW)
224
34 We should throw all Syrians out of the West. They have a war to fight back home.
Posted by: Boss Moss at September 08, 2015 09:47 AM (fjaeZ)
This right here. Last night, Maet (or someone) posted some stats about the 'refugees' -- 13% women 12% children 75% men, mostly of military age. Hand them all a set of steak knives, remind them that coffee is for closers, and tell them to get their asses in gear and take their own country back.
Posted by: Boss Moss at September 08, 2015 09:47 AM (fjaeZ)
This right here. Last night, Maet (or someone) posted some stats about the 'refugees' -- 13% women 12% children 75% men, mostly of military age. Hand them all a set of steak knives, remind them that coffee is for closers, and tell them to get their asses in gear and take their own country back.
Posted by: GnuBreed at September 08, 2015 10:34 AM (gyKtp)
225
***"We are witnessing the downfall of Europe and the next wave will crash against our shores."***
I'm really trying hard to find my Fucks To Give about Europe. That continent has spread more misery around this planet through war and Leftist philosophies than anything else in modern times.
They have squandered their power and their birthrights. They could give two shits about the United States and its Americans and frequently love to vocalize such while expecting us to take care of their defense while they use the "savings" to give free shit to their people on what is ultimately our dime.
I'm done sticking up for that waste of a continent. Screw trying to defend Europe, let them go back to defending themselves. Maybe when they abandon their multi-faceted quest to turn the whole continent into a third world shithole, they'll deserve support.
I'm really trying hard to find my Fucks To Give about Europe. That continent has spread more misery around this planet through war and Leftist philosophies than anything else in modern times.
They have squandered their power and their birthrights. They could give two shits about the United States and its Americans and frequently love to vocalize such while expecting us to take care of their defense while they use the "savings" to give free shit to their people on what is ultimately our dime.
I'm done sticking up for that waste of a continent. Screw trying to defend Europe, let them go back to defending themselves. Maybe when they abandon their multi-faceted quest to turn the whole continent into a third world shithole, they'll deserve support.
Posted by: Burn the Witch at September 08, 2015 10:35 AM (Wckf4)
226
. And if whoever takes your place does the same thing, we'll do it again."
And the never ending screed of those who refuse to get scaling continues.
And the never ending screed of those who refuse to get scaling continues.
Posted by: DaveA at September 08, 2015 10:35 AM (DL2i+)
227
Who left the barn open and let the troll in?
Posted by: Nevergiveup at September 08, 2015 10:35 AM (gf8BH)
228
obama's EPA??
obama's EPA??
Posted by: Soothsayer at September 08, 2015 10:36 AM (WTBBG)
229
"They're not refugees. This is an invasion," said Bishop Laszlo Kiss-Rigo, whose dominion stretches across the southern reaches of this predominantly Catholic nation. "They come here with cries of 'Allahu Akbar.' They want to take over."
Posted by: Lizzy at September 08, 2015 10:31 AM (NOIQH)
----
CALIPHATE!!! CALIPHATE!!! Dance to the music.
CALIPHATE!!! CALIPHATE!!! Dance to the music.
CALIPHATE!!! CALIPHATE!!! Dance to the music.
~ Three Dog Night - The Syrian Tour
Posted by: Lizzy at September 08, 2015 10:31 AM (NOIQH)
----
CALIPHATE!!! CALIPHATE!!! Dance to the music.
CALIPHATE!!! CALIPHATE!!! Dance to the music.
CALIPHATE!!! CALIPHATE!!! Dance to the music.
~ Three Dog Night - The Syrian Tour
Posted by: Hillary!! at September 08, 2015 10:36 AM (8XRCm)
230
Heh.
Posted by: Grump928(c) Lord of the Dance at September 08, 2015 10:36 AM (evdj2)
Posted by: fixerupper at September 08, 2015 10:37 AM (8XRCm)
232
Why are there feminine product ads IN SPANISH in the ad boxes?
Posted by: parteagirl at September 08, 2015 10:04 AM (K0jlM)
Mama, sientes a veces no muy fresca?
Posted by: parteagirl at September 08, 2015 10:04 AM (K0jlM)
Mama, sientes a veces no muy fresca?
Posted by: jwpaine, otherized for your protection at September 08, 2015 10:37 AM (wKcQA)
233
I love the smell of ozone in the morning.
Posted by: Grump928(c) Lord of the Dance at September 08, 2015 10:37 AM (evdj2)
234
MAAAAAARTES GIGAAAAANNNNTE!!
Posted by: El Giro Jebbo at September 08, 2015 10:37 AM (AH4KW)
235
A U.S. war in Syria, because of a photo of a dead boy?
I cried when I saw that photo. It struck a chord deep within me, in part because my own son died, many years ago. My second son just celebrated his 12th birthday over the weekend, and I am getting choked up as I type this, when I am again reminded of the big brother he'll never know.
So I ask again: A U.S. war in Syria because of a photo of a dead boy?
Let me be clear -- fuck no.
I cried when I saw that photo. It struck a chord deep within me, in part because my own son died, many years ago. My second son just celebrated his 12th birthday over the weekend, and I am getting choked up as I type this, when I am again reminded of the big brother he'll never know.
So I ask again: A U.S. war in Syria because of a photo of a dead boy?
Let me be clear -- fuck no.
Posted by: Phinn at September 08, 2015 10:37 AM (DLUnW)
236
Here's my issue with those on the LIB camp in Syria. It is not going to be confined to Syria for long. ISIS has already made moves toward Israel, and they will certainly make a go at "pushing the Jews into the sea" eventually.
Considering that ISIS' claims of caliphate rest on them holding land, there's a fairly direct path to victory in depriving them of a base of operations.
Standing back and doing nothing (which let's be honest, is what we're doing right now) will only put off the inevitable a few years.
What are we going to do when ISIS mounts a full on invasion of Golan Heights?
Considering that ISIS' claims of caliphate rest on them holding land, there's a fairly direct path to victory in depriving them of a base of operations.
Standing back and doing nothing (which let's be honest, is what we're doing right now) will only put off the inevitable a few years.
What are we going to do when ISIS mounts a full on invasion of Golan Heights?
Posted by: Lauren at September 08, 2015 10:38 AM (hNJpI)
Posted by: sadeyesteve at September 08, 2015 10:39 AM (jnIZ9)
238
Because once the fight is fully engaged, the children always suffer first, it's important when the fight begins to ask which culture is the one most likely to lead to future generations of healthy, happy, peaceable children. It's not the Muslim culture, which happily sacrifices its little pawns to the greater Muslim good.
bookwormroom.com
bookwormroom.com
Posted by: Lizzy at September 08, 2015 10:39 AM (NOIQH)
239
I'm not sure the syrians see it as their own country. These tribal divisions they have run deep and have been around for hundreds of years. Of course, they blame it on the West when they set up these countries after WWI but tough.
Posted by: Bruce With a Wang! at September 08, 2015 10:39 AM (iQIUe)
240
In the end, Islam is the biggest problem.
And we aren't willing to go full Dresden/full Tokyo Firebombing much less full Hiroshima on these nations to destroy the idiotic culture that holds them in poverty and ignorance and violence,
then the best we can hope for is few American men and women killed while getting a few years of tattered peace till the next outbreak.
Please see the Soviets and Yugoslavia for a pretty good model of the fail of nation-building among traditional enemies.
I'm not exactly an isolationist now but let's say I'm becoming very selective-
Canada, Great Britain, Australia, and Japan have all shown themselves to be great allies and deserve our support.
Maybe some Eastern European countries, maybe Germany, maybe India - maybe a few others.
Everyone else? Too bad, so sad your governing philosophy of leftardism and anti-Americanism has brought to this pass. GFY.
We need to secure our borders, build up our energy infrastructure with nuke, coal, oil, gas and harden energy delivery with redundant "stupid grids". Not so-called "smart grids" which take control away from you.
Then if the rest of the world wants to relearn the lessons of the last 500 years- have at it boys.
Just don't involve us or our allies.
And we aren't willing to go full Dresden/full Tokyo Firebombing much less full Hiroshima on these nations to destroy the idiotic culture that holds them in poverty and ignorance and violence,
then the best we can hope for is few American men and women killed while getting a few years of tattered peace till the next outbreak.
Please see the Soviets and Yugoslavia for a pretty good model of the fail of nation-building among traditional enemies.
I'm not exactly an isolationist now but let's say I'm becoming very selective-
Canada, Great Britain, Australia, and Japan have all shown themselves to be great allies and deserve our support.
Maybe some Eastern European countries, maybe Germany, maybe India - maybe a few others.
Everyone else? Too bad, so sad your governing philosophy of leftardism and anti-Americanism has brought to this pass. GFY.
We need to secure our borders, build up our energy infrastructure with nuke, coal, oil, gas and harden energy delivery with redundant "stupid grids". Not so-called "smart grids" which take control away from you.
Then if the rest of the world wants to relearn the lessons of the last 500 years- have at it boys.
Just don't involve us or our allies.
Posted by: naturalfake at September 08, 2015 10:40 AM (0cMkb)
241
All these refugees.....sort 'em into "able-bodied" and "unfit for fighting" categories. Admit 'em provisionally, keep 'em in camps, train and arm the able-bodied. Send the able-bodied back to wherever they came from and admit the rest only when the able-bodied are victorious or dead.
Posted by: Arsenic and Old Lace at September 08, 2015 10:40 AM (EzgxV)
242
"203 We should leave the Middle East."
Actually, the problem is . . . the Middle East is leaving . . . the Middle East.
Actually, the problem is . . . the Middle East is leaving . . . the Middle East.
Posted by: Adirondack Patriot at September 08, 2015 10:41 AM (KCQo0)
243
ISIS has already made moves toward Israel, and they will certainly make a go at "pushing the Jews into the sea" eventually.
What are we going to do when ISIS mounts a full on invasion of Golan Heights?
-----
That *will* end badly for them. Israel will be be allowed to clean house with a wink and nod from the neighboring States that want to ISIS destroyed.
Unfortunately..... that does NOT include our current administration.
What are we going to do when ISIS mounts a full on invasion of Golan Heights?
-----
That *will* end badly for them. Israel will be be allowed to clean house with a wink and nod from the neighboring States that want to ISIS destroyed.
Unfortunately..... that does NOT include our current administration.
Posted by: fixerupper at September 08, 2015 10:41 AM (8XRCm)
244
>>What are we going to do when ISIS mounts a full on invasion of Golan Heights?
Not just targets in the ME:
http://www.jpost.com/Middle-East/
Islamic-State-flag-flies-over-Vatican-in-latest-issue-of-Dabiq-magazine-378875
Not just targets in the ME:
http://www.jpost.com/Middle-East/
Islamic-State-flag-flies-over-Vatican-in-latest-issue-of-Dabiq-magazine-378875
Posted by: Lizzy at September 08, 2015 10:41 AM (NOIQH)
245
***"We are witnessing the downfall of Europe and the next wave will crash against our shores."***
Hmmm....What if Europeans themselves decide they can find a better life elsewhere? They say, "Screw it. I'll take waves of Mexicans over waves of Muslims. At least my head will remain intact."
Do we still know how to do that Ellis Island thing?
***"We are witnessing the downfall of Europe and the next wave will crash against our shores."***
Hmmm....What if Europeans themselves decide they can find a better life elsewhere? They say, "Screw it. I'll take waves of Mexicans over waves of Muslims. At least my head will remain intact."
Do we still know how to do that Ellis Island thing?
Posted by: CJ at September 08, 2015 10:41 AM (9KqcB)
246
Britains Next Labour Party Leader Called For Iraqis To Engage In Military Struggle Against US And UK Forces
Weasel Zippers
The LEFT is gong to get us all killed. Let's stop pretending we are not at WAR with the LEFT
Weasel Zippers
The LEFT is gong to get us all killed. Let's stop pretending we are not at WAR with the LEFT
Posted by: Nevergiveup at September 08, 2015 10:42 AM (gf8BH)
247
Actually, the hard work is to train ourselves not to care about Muslim life. It's much easier to do that if one realizes that each Muslim is a tiny piece of satan. I have no problem with Muslims killing each other. As Martha would say, it's a good thing.
W's biggest error was not to attack Iran after attacking Iraq. No rebuilding necessary. Just seed chaos and destroy the oil fields. Then to Arabia, where we should have seized the oil and cut off money to ISIS. The issue is that Islam must be kept poor or it will have the ability to cause us harm.
W's biggest error was not to attack Iran after attacking Iraq. No rebuilding necessary. Just seed chaos and destroy the oil fields. Then to Arabia, where we should have seized the oil and cut off money to ISIS. The issue is that Islam must be kept poor or it will have the ability to cause us harm.
Posted by: skzion at September 08, 2015 10:42 AM (ASkF8)
248
The base question is should the US involve itself with other countries when there is no direct threat to the US?
Our country needs to decide what it's role will be in the world. If we're going to stay out of things that don't involve us, we can have a defense force with less than half of what we have now.
By adopting a policy of answering any aggression with a full nuclear engagement, we could defend the US for a small fraction of the trillion dollars a year we spend now.
My position is that we should take advantage of being the sole superpower and use colonialism to bring our values and language to a number of strategic targets, also making sure that the countries we colonize contribute to the treasury of the US.
When it comes to the military, you either have to use it or get rid of it.
Our country needs to decide what it's role will be in the world. If we're going to stay out of things that don't involve us, we can have a defense force with less than half of what we have now.
By adopting a policy of answering any aggression with a full nuclear engagement, we could defend the US for a small fraction of the trillion dollars a year we spend now.
My position is that we should take advantage of being the sole superpower and use colonialism to bring our values and language to a number of strategic targets, also making sure that the countries we colonize contribute to the treasury of the US.
When it comes to the military, you either have to use it or get rid of it.
Posted by: jwest at September 08, 2015 10:42 AM (Zs4uk)
249
241 All these refugees.....sort 'em into "able-bodied" and "unfit for fighting" categories. Admit 'em provisionally, keep 'em in camps, train and arm the able-bodied. Send the able-bodied back to wherever they came from and admit the rest only when the able-bodied are victorious or dead.
Posted by: Arsenic and Old Lace at September 08, 2015 10:40 AM (EzgxV)
Leftists see refugees as potential votes that they can use to consolidate their power.
Posted by: Arsenic and Old Lace at September 08, 2015 10:40 AM (EzgxV)
Leftists see refugees as potential votes that they can use to consolidate their power.
Posted by: Bevel Lemelisk at September 08, 2015 10:43 AM (88fBD)
250
"203 We should leave the Middle East."
Actually, the problem is . . . the Middle East is leaving . . . the Middle East.
Posted by: Adirondack Patriot at September 08, 2015 10:41 AM (KCQo0)
Bravo...well done Sir
Actually, the problem is . . . the Middle East is leaving . . . the Middle East.
Posted by: Adirondack Patriot at September 08, 2015 10:41 AM (KCQo0)
Bravo...well done Sir
Posted by: Nevergiveup at September 08, 2015 10:43 AM (gf8BH)
251
Bush the HW finally capitulated to the news reports of starving Somali children and sent in troops because the food supplies we had been sending in went to the warlords who were starving those poor children.
Because the issue was not resolved by the end of Bush the HW's term of service, Clinton had to continue the campaign in Somalia to feed the starving children.
Once the BlackHawk was shot down, Clinton has a reason to abandon the effort.
Let's not repeat that same mistake over a picture in the international news media that falsely points the finger of guilt at the US for failing to 'do something for the children'. We've already made that mistake twice (Lebanon once, Somalia a second time).
Because the issue was not resolved by the end of Bush the HW's term of service, Clinton had to continue the campaign in Somalia to feed the starving children.
Once the BlackHawk was shot down, Clinton has a reason to abandon the effort.
Let's not repeat that same mistake over a picture in the international news media that falsely points the finger of guilt at the US for failing to 'do something for the children'. We've already made that mistake twice (Lebanon once, Somalia a second time).
Posted by: Gustapha Karmakov at September 08, 2015 10:43 AM (DJKAF)
252
"Do we still know how to do that Ellis Island thing?"
Yes. The TSA has been doing it to our own citizens for 12 years now.
Yes. The TSA has been doing it to our own citizens for 12 years now.
Posted by: Adirondack Patriot at September 08, 2015 10:43 AM (KCQo0)
253
Always the West who has to 'fix' Islam. Here's the news: Islam isn't fixable. Wherever it takes root it spreads hate, violence, bigotry and ignorance. Oh for those Muslims in Germany who are converting to actually be converting for a cause other than to continue to live off the public welfare.
Posted by: Retard Strength Trumps Smart Power at September 08, 2015 10:43 AM (RKQ/v)
254
how frankly we don't have the wherewithal to maintain a no fly zone for a long period of time
Frankly we won't have the planes soon.
Frankly we won't have the planes soon.
Posted by: DaveA at September 08, 2015 10:43 AM (DL2i+)
255
Elective war = failure
Posted by: Fritz at September 08, 2015 10:44 AM (3tjn4)
Posted by: model_1066 at September 08, 2015 10:45 AM (WEvvb)
257
Maybe some Eastern European countries, maybe Germany, maybe India - maybe a few others.
Not Germany. And I'm dubious about the UK.
"Let It Burn" means we stop trying to save nations hell-bent on suicide. It's a waste of resources we need to save ourselves, if at all possible.
Not Germany. And I'm dubious about the UK.
"Let It Burn" means we stop trying to save nations hell-bent on suicide. It's a waste of resources we need to save ourselves, if at all possible.
Posted by: Brother Cavil, down with Eph 6:12-13 at September 08, 2015 10:45 AM (9krrF)
258
Yes, a lot of this is the US's fault. But I'm not really willing to honor a check President Gutsy-Call wrote.
Ya'll were part of the "coalition of the willing", you deal with it. Our borders are screwed harder than yours and I don't have the time nor give-a-fucks to concern myself with it anymore.
Ya'll were part of the "coalition of the willing", you deal with it. Our borders are screwed harder than yours and I don't have the time nor give-a-fucks to concern myself with it anymore.
Posted by: Chupacabras at September 08, 2015 10:45 AM (CGjum)
259
I, for one, welcome our new Spanish maxi pads overlords!
Posted by: Killerdog at September 08, 2015 10:45 AM (dyNnE)
260
If you hit refresh, you'll see some comments appear that are not insulting or rude or whatever, but when you hit refresh again, they disappear, never to reappear?
Is that part of the new banning process?
Is that part of the new banning process?
Posted by: Monkeytoe at September 08, 2015 10:46 AM (3ZtZW)
261
Admit 'em provisionally, keep 'em in camps, train and arm the able-bodied.
Nope, no way that can go wrong, none whatsoever.
/atomic facepalm
Nope, no way that can go wrong, none whatsoever.
/atomic facepalm
Posted by: Brother Cavil, down with Eph 6:12-13 at September 08, 2015 10:47 AM (9krrF)
Posted by: Grump928(c) Lord of the Dance at September 08, 2015 10:47 AM (evdj2)
263
>>I, for one, welcome our new S- - - - m- - - - p- - - overlords!
You're only ensuring we'll see more of the pink menace by mentioning those words!!!
You're only ensuring we'll see more of the pink menace by mentioning those words!!!
Posted by: Lizzy at September 08, 2015 10:47 AM (NOIQH)
264
hot topless redheads
Posted by: Grump928(c) with fingers crossed at September 08, 2015 10:48 AM (evdj2)
265
Is that part of the new banning process?
It's been around ages, but I think it's getting applied more often than it was before.
It's been around ages, but I think it's getting applied more often than it was before.
Posted by: Brother Cavil, down with Eph 6:12-13 at September 08, 2015 10:48 AM (9krrF)
266
War?
Why war. I thought we could just let a million migrants into the country where the vast majority of them are military aged males who have no ID.
It's like they are making the trip to vote instead of war.
Why war. I thought we could just let a million migrants into the country where the vast majority of them are military aged males who have no ID.
It's like they are making the trip to vote instead of war.
Posted by: Drider at September 08, 2015 10:48 AM (DNFK1)
267
Prove to me we have six time a day rug huggers in high places of the US Govt. I call bullshit.
Here's just one quote from one article: Mr. Gaffney has said the Muslim Brotherhood is the most dangerous group promoting the totalitarian and Islamist supremacist doctrine of Shariah. Several Muslim Brotherhood supporters have been identified as key advisers to Mr. Obama, according to Mr. Gaffney.
Here's the link: http://tinyurl.com/novw73p
Now, start your education about the breadth and depth of the MB in Washington. We'll wait.
Here's just one quote from one article: Mr. Gaffney has said the Muslim Brotherhood is the most dangerous group promoting the totalitarian and Islamist supremacist doctrine of Shariah. Several Muslim Brotherhood supporters have been identified as key advisers to Mr. Obama, according to Mr. Gaffney.
Here's the link: http://tinyurl.com/novw73p
Now, start your education about the breadth and depth of the MB in Washington. We'll wait.
Posted by: BackwardsBoy at September 08, 2015 10:48 AM (LUgeY)
268
I support more walls, less trade, and generally keeping the world and its madness at bay. Hence I will be pleasantly surprised if Trump does half of what he says.
And why I won't lift a finger in support of anyone who seems to think the rest of the world is full of friends we haven't met yet.
And why I won't lift a finger in support of anyone who seems to think the rest of the world is full of friends we haven't met yet.
Posted by: Methos at September 08, 2015 10:49 AM (ZbV+0)
269
asylum seekers in Europe get paid a "Temporary Waiting Allowance"
France pays 343.50/mo
UK 188.81/mo
Germany 137/mo
etc (it's difficult to get hard and comparable numbers, more research is needed)
asylum seekers are also exempt from prosecution for any breach of immigration laws
France pays 343.50/mo
UK 188.81/mo
Germany 137/mo
etc (it's difficult to get hard and comparable numbers, more research is needed)
asylum seekers are also exempt from prosecution for any breach of immigration laws
Posted by: Feh at September 08, 2015 10:50 AM (c9G2j)
270
because BLM is driving away blacks from militancy,
Except for a few shot cops but hey, eggs + omelets right?
Except for a few shot cops but hey, eggs + omelets right?
Posted by: DaveA at September 08, 2015 10:50 AM (DL2i+)
271
I thought it was five times a day?
Posted by: Boss Moss at September 08, 2015 10:51 AM (fjaeZ)
272
hot topless redheads
Posted by: Grump928(c) with fingers crossed at September 08, 2015 10:48 AM (evdj2)
Yes! Hot Topless Redheads.
They really are the answer to all of life's problems, aren't they?
Posted by: Grump928(c) with fingers crossed at September 08, 2015 10:48 AM (evdj2)
Yes! Hot Topless Redheads.
They really are the answer to all of life's problems, aren't they?
Posted by: naturalfake at September 08, 2015 10:51 AM (0cMkb)
273
Redheads, topless and hot.
Posted by: Insomniac at September 08, 2015 10:51 AM (2Ojst)
274
If it were going to be actual, total war, in which we concentrated on crushing and annihilating ALL of our actual enemies -- ISIS, Iran, and all other islamist shitbags in general -- then I'd be down with it. But since we won't do that, and it'd just be more mush-headed "humanitarian" folly, trying to nation-build on foundations of bullshit -- no thanks.
Posted by: Stu-22 at September 08, 2015 10:52 AM (vd4oB)
275
"When you vote, you are exercising political authority, you're using force. And force, my friends, is violence. The supreme authority from which all other authorities derive."
--Shit Heinlein said
--Shit Heinlein said
Posted by: Chupacabras at September 08, 2015 10:52 AM (CGjum)
276
Why settle for Gingers when there are real women?
Posted by: Boss Moss at September 08, 2015 10:52 AM (fjaeZ)
277
Except for a few shot cops but hey, eggs + omelets right?
Posted by: DaveA at September 08, 2015 10:50 AM (DL2i+)
Don't argue with the troll
Posted by: DaveA at September 08, 2015 10:50 AM (DL2i+)
Don't argue with the troll
Posted by: Nevergiveup at September 08, 2015 10:52 AM (gf8BH)
278
♫ Like a good neighbor, hot topless readheads ♫
Posted by: Grump928(c) with fingers crossed at September 08, 2015 10:52 AM (evdj2)
279
Jesus. Where to go with this one? Since I'm not going to be credited with a PhD for a proper response, I'll just say this.
Those who don't learn from the past are doomed to repeat it.
Confederate States of America 1865.
Spanish American War 1898 (Philippines)
Germany 1945.
Japan 1945.
Korea 1953.
Fail: Vietnam 1975.
Fail: Afghanistan 1989.
Fail: Iraq 1992 (returned 2003)
Fail: Somalia 1993.
Bosnia 1995.
Fail: Libya 2011.
Fail: Iraq 2012.
The difference in the success stories is that we and our Allies stayed for as long as it took.
We never learn. All we have proven recently is that we are the world's most undependable ally.
This is why you have a strong foreign policy, folks, so little problems don't become bigger problems.
Had we stayed in Iraq in 2011, Syria would not be the cluster-fuck it is, and AQI never would have become ISIS and Iran wouldn't be kicking our asses on the world stage.
When DO you want to fix the Syria problem? I suppose we can wait until World War 3.
Those who don't learn from the past are doomed to repeat it.
Confederate States of America 1865.
Spanish American War 1898 (Philippines)
Germany 1945.
Japan 1945.
Korea 1953.
Fail: Vietnam 1975.
Fail: Afghanistan 1989.
Fail: Iraq 1992 (returned 2003)
Fail: Somalia 1993.
Bosnia 1995.
Fail: Libya 2011.
Fail: Iraq 2012.
The difference in the success stories is that we and our Allies stayed for as long as it took.
We never learn. All we have proven recently is that we are the world's most undependable ally.
This is why you have a strong foreign policy, folks, so little problems don't become bigger problems.
Had we stayed in Iraq in 2011, Syria would not be the cluster-fuck it is, and AQI never would have become ISIS and Iran wouldn't be kicking our asses on the world stage.
When DO you want to fix the Syria problem? I suppose we can wait until World War 3.
Posted by: @PeeteySDee at September 08, 2015 10:52 AM (yteJO)
280
in Germany
"If the asylum application is accepted, persons granted asylum status and those granted refugee status receive a temporary residence permit and are given the same status as Germans within the social insurance system. They are entitled to social welfare, child benefits, child-raising benefits, integration allowances and language courses as well as other forms of integration assistance."
"If the asylum application is accepted, persons granted asylum status and those granted refugee status receive a temporary residence permit and are given the same status as Germans within the social insurance system. They are entitled to social welfare, child benefits, child-raising benefits, integration allowances and language courses as well as other forms of integration assistance."
Posted by: Feh at September 08, 2015 10:53 AM (c9G2j)
281
What are we going to do when ISIS mounts a full on invasion of Golan Heights?
Laugh at how badly Israel kicks their ass.
Laugh at how badly Israel kicks their ass.
Posted by: DaveA at September 08, 2015 10:53 AM (DL2i+)
282
I know a "Domino Theory" argument when I hear it.
When the American Government actually demonstrates the ability to apply a small amount of force now to prevent a bigger problem later ... and the American Public actually supports it through an election cycle ... call me. Until then, Tribe Irony is staying out of this Syrian Mess.
When the American Government actually demonstrates the ability to apply a small amount of force now to prevent a bigger problem later ... and the American Public actually supports it through an election cycle ... call me. Until then, Tribe Irony is staying out of this Syrian Mess.
Posted by: Irony at September 08, 2015 10:53 AM (3FBAK)
283
***"Here's the news: Islam isn't fixable."***
Exactly. But it's more than just Islam.
The idea that we could somehow go in and "fix" or "change" these glorified desert tribesmen in a decade or a century is laughable. These people have been exposed to the West for about a millenium. They've been occupied how many times over the course of 3000 years?
The only thing you can do is contain them. The problem with Europe is that they're just asking them to perform a slow invasion.
Islam isn't beating the West. The West is just committing suicide.
Exactly. But it's more than just Islam.
The idea that we could somehow go in and "fix" or "change" these glorified desert tribesmen in a decade or a century is laughable. These people have been exposed to the West for about a millenium. They've been occupied how many times over the course of 3000 years?
The only thing you can do is contain them. The problem with Europe is that they're just asking them to perform a slow invasion.
Islam isn't beating the West. The West is just committing suicide.
Posted by: Burn the Witch at September 08, 2015 10:54 AM (Wckf4)
284
Also, we shouldn't look at solutions that cover the entire "Middle East". Iran and Iraq are far more advanced civilizations than Afghanistan, so they need to be treated differently.
Afghans are used to feudal society, so I would put the different areas of the country up for bid for wealthy US individuals and businesses.
Let each leaseholder use their own ground forces, supported by the US air assets and their own mutual assistance agreements to exploit the Afghan assets under this "War Lord" model.
The leaseholder would pay a percentage of their gross income each year to the US for the support.
Taylor the solution to the problem.
Afghans are used to feudal society, so I would put the different areas of the country up for bid for wealthy US individuals and businesses.
Let each leaseholder use their own ground forces, supported by the US air assets and their own mutual assistance agreements to exploit the Afghan assets under this "War Lord" model.
The leaseholder would pay a percentage of their gross income each year to the US for the support.
Taylor the solution to the problem.
Posted by: jwest at September 08, 2015 10:55 AM (Zs4uk)
285
>>Yes! Hot Topless Redheads
Even the 'ettes enjoy this:
http://www.bing.com/images/search?q=shirtless+prince+harry&FORM=HDRSC2
Even the 'ettes enjoy this:
http://www.bing.com/images/search?q=shirtless+prince+harry&FORM=HDRSC2
Posted by: Lizzy at September 08, 2015 10:57 AM (NOIQH)
286
>>IT CERTAINLY IS . We are witnessing the downfall of Europe and the next wave will crash against our shores
Will it become our concern when the terrorists burn down the Vatican? Notre Dame? London, Paris, Rome, Brussels, etc.?
============
That's the other point: If Europe can't be bothered to save itself, why should we be bothered?
And, to repeat, that goes a 1000 times for the Middle East.
Will it become our concern when the terrorists burn down the Vatican? Notre Dame? London, Paris, Rome, Brussels, etc.?
============
That's the other point: If Europe can't be bothered to save itself, why should we be bothered?
And, to repeat, that goes a 1000 times for the Middle East.
Posted by: RoyalOil at September 08, 2015 10:57 AM (ZvKdv)
287
And seriously, isn't France a big part of the post-Iraq dickfuckery in the ME?
Posted by: Chupacabras at September 08, 2015 10:57 AM (CGjum)
288
Joe 'Profiles In Courage' Manchin has come out against the Iran deal.
Posted by: Pappy O'Daniel at September 08, 2015 10:57 AM (hsCpX)
289
Posted by: Lizzy at September 08, 2015 10:57 AM (NOIQH)
This is not the hot topless redhead we were looking for.
This is not the hot topless redhead we were looking for.
Posted by: Insomniac at September 08, 2015 10:58 AM (2Ojst)
290
The leaseholder would pay a percentage of their gross income each year to the US for the support.
The IRS could go over and do the audits.
The IRS could go over and do the audits.
Posted by: Cicero (@cicero) at September 08, 2015 10:58 AM (75uvI)
291
Not one death of an American serviceman is worth saving the lives of our enemies.
Posted by: Leonero at September 08, 2015 10:58 AM (zSLqp)
292
Donald Trump refuses to say the term Supreme Leader. Fucking awesome.
"They're rapists."
Trump
2016
"They're rapists."
Trump
2016
Posted by: prescient11 at September 08, 2015 10:59 AM (q5APL)
293
Colon Powell thinks the Iran treaty is a boffo deal. That seals it for me.
Posted by: Cicero (@cicero) at September 08, 2015 10:59 AM (75uvI)
294
It would be rather humorous to watch ISIS attempt a full blown assault on the Golan Heights.
That would not be a good day for them.
That would not be a good day for them.
Posted by: TexasJew at September 08, 2015 10:59 AM (3Ssj/)
Posted by: Feh at September 08, 2015 11:00 AM (c9G2j)
296
The Multi-Decadal occupation of Western Europe was never something factored in by the united States nor United Kingdom, it was forced upon these countries by the clanking caused by the Iron Curtain descending.
If Sun Tzu is too obscure, perhaps some Benjamin Disraeli might be in order.
What we anticipate seldom occurs: but what we least expect generally happens.
If Sun Tzu is too obscure, perhaps some Benjamin Disraeli might be in order.
What we anticipate seldom occurs: but what we least expect generally happens.
Posted by: Anna Puma at September 08, 2015 11:00 AM (Sz+px)
297
Afghans are used to feudal society, so I would put the different areas
of the country up for bid for wealthy US individuals and businesses.
This is true for the vast majority of Iran and Iraq as well. Yes, the biggest cities are slightly more cosmopolitan, but once you leave there, it is tribal and backward.
of the country up for bid for wealthy US individuals and businesses.
This is true for the vast majority of Iran and Iraq as well. Yes, the biggest cities are slightly more cosmopolitan, but once you leave there, it is tribal and backward.
Posted by: Monkeytoe at September 08, 2015 11:00 AM (3ZtZW)
298
I suppose we can wait until World War 3. Posted by: @PeeteySDee at September 08, 2015 10:52 AM (yteJO)
So next Tuesday, then?
So next Tuesday, then?
Posted by: Cato the Rebel Without a Party at September 08, 2015 11:00 AM (HalrA)
299
Schengen Visas! Get your Schengen Visas Here!
Posted by: European Union at September 08, 2015 11:01 AM (3tjn4)
300
The Netflix series Narcos is well done. Except for showing Pablo Escobar in shorts and sandals. Colombian men don't dress like that or they would be called fags. Love that Netflix let the filmmakers keep it real with the dialog. Lot of fag interspersed in the dialog.
How does the Narcos political arc look next to BLM? It looks about the same. The BLMs crossed the line and lost popular support just like Pablo. Couldn't keep their personal feelings separate from their political goals. BLM is toast. No black person with a brain wants any part of them after the cop killing started.
How does the Narcos political arc look next to BLM? It looks about the same. The BLMs crossed the line and lost popular support just like Pablo. Couldn't keep their personal feelings separate from their political goals. BLM is toast. No black person with a brain wants any part of them after the cop killing started.
Posted by: sadeyesteve at September 08, 2015 11:01 AM (jnIZ9)
301
>>This is not the hot topless redhead we were looking for.
*shrugs*
Just wanted to join in the fun
*shrugs*
Just wanted to join in the fun
Posted by: Lizzy at September 08, 2015 11:01 AM (NOIQH)
302
"Prove to me we have six time a day rug huggers in high places of the US Govt. "
Head of the CIA is a Muslim convert.
He does the rug thing every day, in his office.
Head of the CIA is a Muslim convert.
He does the rug thing every day, in his office.
Posted by: navybrat at September 08, 2015 11:01 AM (ETxiG)
Posted by: Grump928(c) plays Just the Punchline at September 08, 2015 11:01 AM (evdj2)
304
Colon Powell is an Arabist ... much like Obama. Pure and simple.
Living proof that, much like McCain, combat experience isn't a 100% litmus test for political leadership.
Living proof that, much like McCain, combat experience isn't a 100% litmus test for political leadership.
Posted by: Irony at September 08, 2015 11:02 AM (3FBAK)
305
And seriously, isn't France a big part of the post-Iraq dickfuckery in the ME?
Posted by: Chupacabras at September 08, 2015 10:57 AM (CGjum)
Yes and no. France did make some good money selling goods to Iraq before the invasaion.
Posted by: Chupacabras at September 08, 2015 10:57 AM (CGjum)
Yes and no. France did make some good money selling goods to Iraq before the invasaion.
Posted by: Draki at September 08, 2015 11:02 AM (0eidE)
306
This is true for the vast majority of Iran and Iraq as well. Yes, the biggest cities are slightly more cosmopolitan, but once you leave there, it is tribal and backward.
Remember the images of Iran prior to the '79 "revolution?" People in libraries dressed nicely, peacefully going about their daily lives without the threat of violence from totalitarian sharia cops.
Good times.
Remember the images of Iran prior to the '79 "revolution?" People in libraries dressed nicely, peacefully going about their daily lives without the threat of violence from totalitarian sharia cops.
Good times.
Posted by: BackwardsBoy at September 08, 2015 11:04 AM (LUgeY)
307
280-but I see nothing in there that says they have to work, and pay into the system. So the Germans get to pay for more people to sit around and whinge about how awful Germany is, while demanding their Bitburger and currywurst?
Yeah. That's going to work out just great.
Yeah. That's going to work out just great.
Posted by: Moki at September 08, 2015 11:04 AM (x303I)
308
Headline: Angela Merkel says record refugee influx will change Germany
Well. I hope that with the influx of millions of Muslims, Germany will finally experience the economic, technological and cultural success that has eluded it throughout history.
Well. I hope that with the influx of millions of Muslims, Germany will finally experience the economic, technological and cultural success that has eluded it throughout history.
Posted by: CJ at September 08, 2015 11:04 AM (9KqcB)
309
I am only thankful that Powell's honesty saved us from a Powell presidency. There was a point in 1996 where I swear he would have been the nominee if he had only been willing to lie and say he was pro-life.
Posted by: Grump928(c) plays Just the Punchline at September 08, 2015 11:04 AM (evdj2)
310
Head of the CIA is a Muslim convert.
He does the rug thing every day, in his office.
Posted by: navybrat at September 08, 2015 11:01 AM (ETxiG)
You talking about John Brennan the current head or the guy in the news that came out as a convert?
He does the rug thing every day, in his office.
Posted by: navybrat at September 08, 2015 11:01 AM (ETxiG)
You talking about John Brennan the current head or the guy in the news that came out as a convert?
Posted by: Draki at September 08, 2015 11:05 AM (0eidE)
311
One thing Germany's got going for it is you'll probably be able to talk about hating Jew's openly within the next few years.
So, there's that.
So, there's that.
Posted by: Chupacabras at September 08, 2015 11:05 AM (CGjum)
312
art thread
Posted by: Lizzy at September 08, 2015 11:06 AM (NOIQH)
313
"Living proof that, much like McCain, combat experience isn't a 100% litmus test for political leadership."
I can think of at least one other individual who saw action, and his political leadership kind of went into the shitter.
Somewhere around the mid 1940's, I believe.
I can think of at least one other individual who saw action, and his political leadership kind of went into the shitter.
Somewhere around the mid 1940's, I believe.
Posted by: Village Idiot's Apprentice at September 08, 2015 11:06 AM (VPLuQ)
314
I'm pretty sure we ARE seeing the Powell Presidency ...
Posted by: Irony at September 08, 2015 11:06 AM (3FBAK)
315
Draki- who else came out as Muslim? I haven't seen that.
Posted by: Moki at September 08, 2015 11:07 AM (x303I)
316
Head of the CIA is a Muslim convert.
He does the rug thing every day, in his office.
Posted by: navybrat at September 08, 2015 11:01 AM (ETxiG)
You talking about John Brennan the current head or the guy in the news that came out as a convert?
Posted by: Draki
Yes.
He does the rug thing every day, in his office.
Posted by: navybrat at September 08, 2015 11:01 AM (ETxiG)
You talking about John Brennan the current head or the guy in the news that came out as a convert?
Posted by: Draki
Yes.
Posted by: rickb223 at September 08, 2015 11:08 AM (W4LFA)
317
I just saw like one puff piece on a senior leader, not the actual head. NYTs I think.
Posted by: Draki at September 08, 2015 11:08 AM (0eidE)
318
Yes.
Posted by: rickb223 at September 08, 2015 11:08 AM (W4LFA)
No, no!!! Which one is it?!!!11!!!!???
Posted by: rickb223 at September 08, 2015 11:08 AM (W4LFA)
No, no!!! Which one is it?!!!11!!!!???
Posted by: Draki at September 08, 2015 11:08 AM (0eidE)
319
Remember when Coulter said, "Kill 'em or convert 'em?"
That still remains true.
The other is: "There are only three kinds of good Muslims--ex, apostate or dead."
That still remains true.
The other is: "There are only three kinds of good Muslims--ex, apostate or dead."
Posted by: RoyalOil at September 08, 2015 11:09 AM (ZvKdv)
320
Remember the images of Iran prior to the '79
"revolution?" People in libraries dressed nicely, peacefully going about
their daily lives without the threat of violence from totalitarian
sharia cops.
Good times.
Posted by: BackwardsBoy at September 08, 2015 11:04 AM (LUgeY)
In fairness, the shah's secret police did kidnap and torture quite a few political dissidents. Of course, my guess is that fewer dissidents were tortured/jailed then in Iran as opposed to now. And, looking back, we'd be happy with the dissidents they jailed (as I'm guessing they were all of a feather with today's islamicists).
"revolution?" People in libraries dressed nicely, peacefully going about
their daily lives without the threat of violence from totalitarian
sharia cops.
Good times.
Posted by: BackwardsBoy at September 08, 2015 11:04 AM (LUgeY)
In fairness, the shah's secret police did kidnap and torture quite a few political dissidents. Of course, my guess is that fewer dissidents were tortured/jailed then in Iran as opposed to now. And, looking back, we'd be happy with the dissidents they jailed (as I'm guessing they were all of a feather with today's islamicists).
Posted by: Monkeytoe at September 08, 2015 11:10 AM (3ZtZW)
321
The other is: "There are only three kinds of good Muslims--ex, apostate or dead."
Posted by: RoyalOil at September 08, 2015 11:09 AM (ZvKdv)
Does Reza Aslan count as apostate? I don't like his politics and lies, but he don't need to die.
Posted by: RoyalOil at September 08, 2015 11:09 AM (ZvKdv)
Does Reza Aslan count as apostate? I don't like his politics and lies, but he don't need to die.
Posted by: Draki at September 08, 2015 11:10 AM (0eidE)
Posted by: Feh at September 08, 2015 11:10 AM (c9G2j)
323
260 If you hit refresh, you'll see some comments appear that are not insulting or rude or whatever, but when you hit refresh again, they disappear, never to reappear?
Is that part of the new banning process?
Posted by: Monkeytoe at September 08, 2015 10:46 AM (3ZtZW)
Certain people have been known to act nice and friendly for a while, then drop the mask and either post personal attacks or outright links to malware. TB3K is designed to take care of this.
Is that part of the new banning process?
Posted by: Monkeytoe at September 08, 2015 10:46 AM (3ZtZW)
Certain people have been known to act nice and friendly for a while, then drop the mask and either post personal attacks or outright links to malware. TB3K is designed to take care of this.
Posted by: Arsenic and Old Lace at September 08, 2015 11:11 AM (EzgxV)
324
Please remember that those people all hate us, and that they are allowed by their religion to lie to us as well as behead and enslave us. When they give that up, in a big way, maybe then we can offer some aid ... say like in 100 years or so. Until then, not one penny or drop of American blood should be wasted on our enemies children.
Posted by: goon at September 08, 2015 11:13 AM (gy5kE)
325
Colon Powell thinks the Iran treaty is a boffo deal. That seals it for me.
Posted by: Cicero
----------------
I know, I know.., right?
Now there's a guy who gets it.
Posted by: Cicero
----------------
I know, I know.., right?
Now there's a guy who gets it.
Posted by: NPR listener at September 08, 2015 11:13 AM (9mTYi)
326
Islam.
Posted by: Prince Matchabelli at September 08, 2015 11:14 AM (zmZ2x)
327
As usual, there's too much illogic and factual error in all the premises on Iraq to fix in a comment section. Iraq and Syria are very different situations, and for those (the majority, seemingly) who think an intervention is based on feeling good vs. how icky or "complicated" the situation is, there isn't going to be an epiphany. Iraq was not driven by humanitarian "emergency" (like Somalia, which BTW was not and need not have become the cluster it became).
In the Syrian case our interests are not as clear as they were in Iraq, and the risks/eventual costseven harder to estimate. So it's really a non-starter, as far as any significant US intervention.
Speaking of that word, WTF is "interventionism"? I don't know, and wouldn't take seriously, anyone whose views on intervening in world situations could be described as an "ism". You make judgement calls based on a given situation. Period.
There is definitely the mindlessness of an "ism", an empty reflex reaction, to the idiots like Obama and 95% of the Dem Party, and much of the libertarian and now simply lightweight "right". But Iraq was the precise opposite of anything arising from an ideology or "ism".
But the mythology surrounding Iraq, as firmly internalized by Drew and many here, bids fair to oudo the Vietnam Syndrome as far as paralyzing rational US action abroad. The war was overby 2009 or so, then everything was simply thrown away. No amount ofoff-point or fanciful navel gazing about troop levels in the fall of 2003 (when things were dead quiet, still) etc. will change that.How anyone could risk their butt for a country like this, at this point, is utterlybaffling (actually, inertia explains it, like most things in nature incl. human behavior). Fundamentallyunserious country, not just on the "left", but the "right" as well.
As usual, there's too much illogic and factual error in all the premises on Iraq to fix in a comment section. Iraq and Syria are very different situations, and for those (the majority, seemingly) who think an intervention is based on feeling good vs. how icky or "complicated" the situation is, there isn't going to be an epiphany. Iraq was not driven by humanitarian "emergency" (like Somalia, which BTW was not and need not have become the cluster it became).
In the Syrian case our interests are not as clear as they were in Iraq, and the risks/eventual costseven harder to estimate. So it's really a non-starter, as far as any significant US intervention.
Speaking of that word, WTF is "interventionism"? I don't know, and wouldn't take seriously, anyone whose views on intervening in world situations could be described as an "ism". You make judgement calls based on a given situation. Period.
There is definitely the mindlessness of an "ism", an empty reflex reaction, to the idiots like Obama and 95% of the Dem Party, and much of the libertarian and now simply lightweight "right". But Iraq was the precise opposite of anything arising from an ideology or "ism".
But the mythology surrounding Iraq, as firmly internalized by Drew and many here, bids fair to oudo the Vietnam Syndrome as far as paralyzing rational US action abroad. The war was overby 2009 or so, then everything was simply thrown away. No amount ofoff-point or fanciful navel gazing about troop levels in the fall of 2003 (when things were dead quiet, still) etc. will change that.How anyone could risk their butt for a country like this, at this point, is utterlybaffling (actually, inertia explains it, like most things in nature incl. human behavior). Fundamentallyunserious country, not just on the "left", but the "right" as well.
Posted by: rhomboid at September 08, 2015 11:15 AM (QDnY+)
328
Please remember that those people all hate us, and that they are allowed by their religion to lie to us as well as behead and enslave us. When they give that up, in a big way, maybe then we can offer some aid ... say like in 100 years or so. Until then, not one penny or drop of American blood should be wasted on our enemies children.
Posted by: goon at September 08, 2015 11:13 AM (gy5kE)
+1
Posted by: goon at September 08, 2015 11:13 AM (gy5kE)
+1
Posted by: Draki at September 08, 2015 11:15 AM (0eidE)
329
......sticky socks.....
Posted by: cthulhu at September 08, 2015 11:15 AM (EzgxV)
330
320
In fairness, the shah's secret police did kidnap and torture quite a few political dissidents. Of course, my guess is that fewer dissidents were tortured/jailed then in Iran as opposed to now. And, looking back, we'd be happy with the dissidents they jailed (as I'm guessing they were all of a feather with today's islamicists).
Posted by: Monkeytoe at September 08, 2015 11:10 AM (3ZtZW)
There were also plenty of Communists, so yeah, my tiny violin is broke.
In fairness, the shah's secret police did kidnap and torture quite a few political dissidents. Of course, my guess is that fewer dissidents were tortured/jailed then in Iran as opposed to now. And, looking back, we'd be happy with the dissidents they jailed (as I'm guessing they were all of a feather with today's islamicists).
Posted by: Monkeytoe at September 08, 2015 11:10 AM (3ZtZW)
There were also plenty of Communists, so yeah, my tiny violin is broke.
Posted by: rickl at September 08, 2015 11:16 AM (zoehZ)
331
Mr. Trump said that his experience at the New York Military Academy, an expensive prep school where his parents had sent him to correct poor behavior, gave him 'more training militarily than a lot of the guys that go into the military.'"
Posted by: Done and Done at September 08, 2015 09:51 AM (nFICN)
Yeah, let's nominate Trump. A few years in an upscale military prep school most definitely qualify him to lead our armed forces since, you know, prep schools are the de facto equivalent of military service. That, combined with Trump's in-depth knowledge of foreign affairs--and btw, that Who is Hamas? question asked of Trump by Hugh Hewitt is known by anyone who bothers to read a news feed headline--make him a formidible force on the world stage, yessirreebob.
Sarcasm off. Despair on.
Posted by: Done and Done at September 08, 2015 09:51 AM (nFICN)
Yeah, let's nominate Trump. A few years in an upscale military prep school most definitely qualify him to lead our armed forces since, you know, prep schools are the de facto equivalent of military service. That, combined with Trump's in-depth knowledge of foreign affairs--and btw, that Who is Hamas? question asked of Trump by Hugh Hewitt is known by anyone who bothers to read a news feed headline--make him a formidible force on the world stage, yessirreebob.
Sarcasm off. Despair on.
Posted by: troyriser at September 08, 2015 11:17 AM (XHR9b)
332
Posted by: rhomboid at September 08, 2015 11:15 AM (QDnY+)
Maybe you mentioned this earlier, but what myths is Drew internalizing? I don't think he's arguing to get involved in Syria, just that we should accept the facts and whatever our decision is.
Maybe you mentioned this earlier, but what myths is Drew internalizing? I don't think he's arguing to get involved in Syria, just that we should accept the facts and whatever our decision is.
Posted by: Draki at September 08, 2015 11:18 AM (0eidE)
333
@298, Yes, next Tuesday is fine for WW3. I'm free and have another 10 to 20 years of my life to waste on helping America sacrifice its best human capital and debt ceiling on fixing mistakes which could have been prevented through the proper application of national power... and devastating run-on sentences that never seem to stop.
Posted by: @PeeteySDee at September 08, 2015 11:21 AM (yteJO)
334
Draki, gotta hit the congested freeway, but the myths are so numerous that, as I said, you can't fix them in a comment section. One? That "pre-war planning" has/had fuck-all to do with how the Iraq situation went, or that "troop numbers" were the key.The "insurgency" didn't get going for quite a while after the regime removal. It wasn't any planning or lack thereof that mattered, it was the actual reaction to the actual situation.
The "surge" was an obvious, simple, small operation. Which coulda/shoulda been done (more or less) at any time after the fall of 2004 (absent the local forces component, but that would simply have been a matter of time, holding ground til that spooled up). With one variation: crushing the Anbar Sunnis - as should have been done the nanosecond they dared to mess with us, anyway.
Anyway, no point! The electorate gets what it wants/deserves, and in Iraq it got a disaster that started in 2009, not 2003.
Draki, gotta hit the congested freeway, but the myths are so numerous that, as I said, you can't fix them in a comment section. One? That "pre-war planning" has/had fuck-all to do with how the Iraq situation went, or that "troop numbers" were the key.The "insurgency" didn't get going for quite a while after the regime removal. It wasn't any planning or lack thereof that mattered, it was the actual reaction to the actual situation.
The "surge" was an obvious, simple, small operation. Which coulda/shoulda been done (more or less) at any time after the fall of 2004 (absent the local forces component, but that would simply have been a matter of time, holding ground til that spooled up). With one variation: crushing the Anbar Sunnis - as should have been done the nanosecond they dared to mess with us, anyway.
Anyway, no point! The electorate gets what it wants/deserves, and in Iraq it got a disaster that started in 2009, not 2003.
Posted by: rhomboid at September 08, 2015 11:23 AM (QDnY+)
335
***"Maybe you mentioned this earlier, but what myths is Drew internalizing? I don't think he's arguing to get involved in Syria, just that we should accept the facts and whatever our decision is."***
I think he's bringing up older posts and comments by Drew into the thread. There does seem to be a bit of collective amnesia here about our involvement in Iraq originally, which Drew seems to fall prey to, but I thought this post was mostly free of that.
I think he's bringing up older posts and comments by Drew into the thread. There does seem to be a bit of collective amnesia here about our involvement in Iraq originally, which Drew seems to fall prey to, but I thought this post was mostly free of that.
Posted by: Burn the Witch at September 08, 2015 11:25 AM (Wckf4)
336
Yep, we did our jobs during the Cold War a little too well. If we could have looked into the future and seen how much easier it would be to deal with Godless communists, and actual countries instead of tribes, and instead of the crazy religious sons of bitches we have in the Muddled East now, I think we might have pulled a few punches and let the communists stamp out religion a little. Oh, well ...
Posted by: goon at September 08, 2015 11:25 AM (gy5kE)
337
Posted by: rhomboid at September 08, 2015 11:23 AM (QDnY+)
Thanks for quick reply. You've got some good points. I think Rumsfeld planned poorly for Iraq the failure of the transition is an example of that. Control of the country did not exist when the regime was toppled and more boots of the ground could certainly have helped, but you are correct to say that only more boots wouldn't have prevented it's crumbling today or the insurgency that happened. I think what we lacked was a clear way to replace Sadaam's govt and the political will to be there for a couple of years to do it.
Thanks for quick reply. You've got some good points. I think Rumsfeld planned poorly for Iraq the failure of the transition is an example of that. Control of the country did not exist when the regime was toppled and more boots of the ground could certainly have helped, but you are correct to say that only more boots wouldn't have prevented it's crumbling today or the insurgency that happened. I think what we lacked was a clear way to replace Sadaam's govt and the political will to be there for a couple of years to do it.
Posted by: Draki at September 08, 2015 11:30 AM (0eidE)
338
The military did great in Iraq. The State Department, not so much.
I always wonder why the State Department insists on establishing Euro style parliamentary systems in conquered countries. Is there some problem with our Constitution?
I always wonder why the State Department insists on establishing Euro style parliamentary systems in conquered countries. Is there some problem with our Constitution?
Posted by: Grump928(c) plays Just the Punchline at September 08, 2015 11:33 AM (evdj2)
339
***"I always wonder why the State Department insists on establishing Euro style parliamentary systems in conquered countries. Is there some problem with our Constitution?"***
Trick, or rhetorical question?
Trick, or rhetorical question?
Posted by: Burn the Witch at September 08, 2015 11:35 AM (Wckf4)
340
I love the vague way in which Rothman talks about the planned Syria intervention a few years ago: no acknowledgement of the fact that they wanted to intervene to remove the Assad regime and not to stop the ISIS barbarity. These people basically advocated intervening on the side of jihadist barbarism and now they come back and ask for the same troops to fight the other side in this conflict.
Is Rothman related to Lindsey Graham? Maybe the brainless intervention bug is hereditary.
Is Rothman related to Lindsey Graham? Maybe the brainless intervention bug is hereditary.
Posted by: The Nayden Broad, still yelling at the damn lamp at September 08, 2015 11:37 AM (zZwCd)
341
I always wonder why the State Department insists on establishing Euro style parliamentary systems in conquered countries. Is there some problem with our Constitution?
Posted by: Grump928(c) plays Just the Punchline at September 08, 2015 11:33 AM (evdj2)
Probably the same reason why the CIA supports islam in Libya and Syria. To keep them behind in the balance of power.
Posted by: Grump928(c) plays Just the Punchline at September 08, 2015 11:33 AM (evdj2)
Probably the same reason why the CIA supports islam in Libya and Syria. To keep them behind in the balance of power.
Posted by: Draki at September 08, 2015 11:37 AM (0eidE)
342
Probably the same reason why the CIA supports islam in Libya and Syria. To keep them behind in the balance of power.
Maybe. I always thought that if we didn't inflict communism on the Chinese, we should have. Imagine a nation of a billion people as productive as Taiwan.
Maybe. I always thought that if we didn't inflict communism on the Chinese, we should have. Imagine a nation of a billion people as productive as Taiwan.
Posted by: Grump928(c) plays Just the Punchline at September 08, 2015 11:40 AM (evdj2)
343
In Iraq, the insurgency started after the Baathist regime was removed and the US fumbled to assert control over the country (with insufficient forces)
The sufficiency of US forces was never an issue -- a deliberate strategy of "light footprint" allowed insurgent forces to gather their strength.
People forget how much criticism there was in 2002-4, and nearly all of it was in the vein of "hey leave those poor Iraqis alone." Well, we did, and they started blowing each other up. Which was then also our fault.
You either do the job all the way or you do nothing.
The sufficiency of US forces was never an issue -- a deliberate strategy of "light footprint" allowed insurgent forces to gather their strength.
People forget how much criticism there was in 2002-4, and nearly all of it was in the vein of "hey leave those poor Iraqis alone." Well, we did, and they started blowing each other up. Which was then also our fault.
You either do the job all the way or you do nothing.
Posted by: TallDave at September 08, 2015 11:43 AM (/s1LA)
344
People forget how much criticism there was in 2002-4, and nearly all of it was in the vein of "hey leave those poor Iraqis alone." Well, we did, and they started blowing each other up. Which was then also our fault.
You either do the job all the way or you do nothing.
Posted by: TallDave at September 08, 2015 11:43 AM (/s1LA)
That's another baffling thing you bring up. Why don't Iraqis get credit for blowing each other up? Why does the credit go to America?
You either do the job all the way or you do nothing.
Posted by: TallDave at September 08, 2015 11:43 AM (/s1LA)
That's another baffling thing you bring up. Why don't Iraqis get credit for blowing each other up? Why does the credit go to America?
Posted by: Draki at September 08, 2015 11:45 AM (0eidE)
345
The only rational move we have left is openly supporting and arming, and assisting a Kurdish state that takes in part of Iraq and Syria. Once we have accomplished that and helped the Kurds expand their territorial control as much as possible, we can then figure out what the next move is.
The reason we help the Kurds establish their own country is we know certain things about them so they are predictable - 1. They hate Arabs. 2. They hate ISIS. 3. They hate AQ. 4. They hate Turks. 5. They don't much like Iran either.
Therefore they need our friendship, and therefore are as close to a reliable ally as you are going to get in the Islamic world. They can also serve as a useful base to influence and support Iranian uprisings if they occur again.
As for the Turkish and Arabian opposition to such a move...ignore it. Those countries have not been there for us when we needed them, and we should not be there for them when they need us. They both have supported Jihad...and deserve to be dumped from our alliance structures.
The reason we help the Kurds establish their own country is we know certain things about them so they are predictable - 1. They hate Arabs. 2. They hate ISIS. 3. They hate AQ. 4. They hate Turks. 5. They don't much like Iran either.
Therefore they need our friendship, and therefore are as close to a reliable ally as you are going to get in the Islamic world. They can also serve as a useful base to influence and support Iranian uprisings if they occur again.
As for the Turkish and Arabian opposition to such a move...ignore it. Those countries have not been there for us when we needed them, and we should not be there for them when they need us. They both have supported Jihad...and deserve to be dumped from our alliance structures.
Posted by: William Eaton at September 08, 2015 11:50 AM (q52Ma)
346
Greetings:
As a printer, I'm well aware of the power of images and certainly that picture of Aylan Kurdi, the drowned boy on the Turkish beach, qualifies in that regard. But as media things go these Progressive days, there doesn't seem to be much interest in fleshing out the rest of the boy's and the family's history.
The Jihad Watch web site has an article that makes an attempt.
As a printer, I'm well aware of the power of images and certainly that picture of Aylan Kurdi, the drowned boy on the Turkish beach, qualifies in that regard. But as media things go these Progressive days, there doesn't seem to be much interest in fleshing out the rest of the boy's and the family's history.
The Jihad Watch web site has an article that makes an attempt.
Posted by: 11B40 at September 08, 2015 11:51 AM (abx5/)
347
Oh, and it can't be said often enough -- no one ever considers the 2003 counterfactual in Iraq. Could we keep bombing them for 12 years more years, even as sanctions collapsed and international criticism mounted? Or would we abandon the Kurds and Shia to a Syria-style civil war that killed millions and empowered extremists? Would it take twelve years for the regime to develop and a nuke?
The real failure in Iraq happened in 1991. We needed to either stay out, or remove Saddam and impose a democratic republic as we did in Japan, Germany, and South Korea. But our political class has neither the resolve, the perspicacity, nor the cultural confidence of the 1940s and 50s.
The real failure in Iraq happened in 1991. We needed to either stay out, or remove Saddam and impose a democratic republic as we did in Japan, Germany, and South Korea. But our political class has neither the resolve, the perspicacity, nor the cultural confidence of the 1940s and 50s.
Posted by: TallDave at September 08, 2015 11:55 AM (/s1LA)
348
Also come to the realization that Iraq and Syria are finished as countries. if they ever existed in the first place, and use that as a starting point. So although it is chaos, look at as a opportunity to justify the kind of rational, cold, moves that will need to be made. A Kurdish state, a Christian homeland, push for the return of Zoroastrianism, and do everything we can to destroy the institutions of Islam. ISIS is doing a lot of damage to Islam, and now is a time to use that in our favor to stick it to that faith.
Alas the West thinks Islam is a wonderful religion if you hear Obama, Bush, Clinton, etc.
Alas the West thinks Islam is a wonderful religion if you hear Obama, Bush, Clinton, etc.
Posted by: William Eaton at September 08, 2015 11:56 AM (q52Ma)
349
I see the adults have shown up in this thread. Hopefully it'll help the BillyBobCons understand a little of whats going on in the ME and why.
Posted by: sadeyesteve at September 08, 2015 12:11 PM (jnIZ9)
350
i hate when drudge links to infowars
Posted by: phoenixgirl, i was born a rebel at September 08, 2015 12:15 PM (0O7c5)
351
Do the Europeans not have military forces? aircraft? sealift capacity? warships? if they're so bothered by it, let them take a crack. Who knows? it may work out, and we can gain some pointers. I'll leave you with Bismarck:
The whole of the Balkans is not worth the bones of a single Pomeranian grenadier.
Neither is Syria.
Do the Europeans not have military forces? aircraft? sealift capacity? warships? if they're so bothered by it, let them take a crack. Who knows? it may work out, and we can gain some pointers. I'll leave you with Bismarck:
The whole of the Balkans is not worth the bones of a single Pomeranian grenadier.
Neither is Syria.
Posted by: I R A Darth Aggie at September 08, 2015 12:16 PM (1hM1d)
352
We're already in Syria if you consider our continued support of our so called allies *cough* Saudi Arabia and Turkey. *cough* Both of them support the Jihadists while wanting Assad gone.
It's no wonder why we've been so ineffective at stopping ISIS. How can you go all out against them when we and our allies are counting on them to take out Assad. That also why our government got spooked are rumors that Russia may become more active in Syria. We all know that they have no reason to hold back against the terrorists since their not interested in overthrowing Assad.
I was never a fan of Bush and his compassionate conservatism drivel but it was nice that under Bush at least we fought against terrorism while under Obama we're fighting for it.
It's no wonder why we've been so ineffective at stopping ISIS. How can you go all out against them when we and our allies are counting on them to take out Assad. That also why our government got spooked are rumors that Russia may become more active in Syria. We all know that they have no reason to hold back against the terrorists since their not interested in overthrowing Assad.
I was never a fan of Bush and his compassionate conservatism drivel but it was nice that under Bush at least we fought against terrorism while under Obama we're fighting for it.
Posted by: amanwithnoparty at September 08, 2015 12:26 PM (sbaXF)
353
Posted by: An Observation
===========
B-52s + training camps = < ISIS = victory
But we don't strike them. Because ISIS = Muslim Brotherhood = Obama's BFF
===========
B-52s + training camps = < ISIS = victory
But we don't strike them. Because ISIS = Muslim Brotherhood = Obama's BFF
Posted by: eureka! at September 08, 2015 12:49 PM (g1MTt)
354
Greetings"
Gog and Magog ate pork
In vertical New York
And next Monday began the war upon the Danes.
Any interest in Turkey's latest war on the Kurds ???
Gog and Magog ate pork
In vertical New York
And next Monday began the war upon the Danes.
Any interest in Turkey's latest war on the Kurds ???
Posted by: 11B40 at September 08, 2015 12:54 PM (abx5/)
355
"Now listen you, people of NATO.
You're bombing a wall which stood in the way of African migration to
Europe, and in the way of Al Qaeda terrorists. This wall was Libya.
You're breaking it. You're idiots, and you will burn in Hell for
thousands of migrants from Africa and for supporting Al Qaeda. It will
be so. I never lie. And I do not lie now."
- Gaddafi in 2011
Posted by: Lizzy
++++++++++++++
Wow. Bears repeating. F*cking Hillary and Barky screwed the pooch. All for the Muzzie Bro'hood which is ISIS .
You're bombing a wall which stood in the way of African migration to
Europe, and in the way of Al Qaeda terrorists. This wall was Libya.
You're breaking it. You're idiots, and you will burn in Hell for
thousands of migrants from Africa and for supporting Al Qaeda. It will
be so. I never lie. And I do not lie now."
- Gaddafi in 2011
Posted by: Lizzy
++++++++++++++
Wow. Bears repeating. F*cking Hillary and Barky screwed the pooch. All for the Muzzie Bro'hood which is ISIS .
Posted by: eureka! at September 08, 2015 12:57 PM (g1MTt)
356
I have no problems with strategic bombing of vulnerable targets, but i think all weapons should be stored securely with American military instead of being handed off to third parties who will be chosen to do the job but may just hand our weapons to the enemy through betrayal or pure cowardice. Keep both sides super weak relative to us. No need to take a side in a civil war where all sides hate us.
I am happy to take all refugees (and other immigrants), but only on the condition that they work and are a net positive for the economy, and that they dont get permanent residency and their kids born here arent made automatic citizens.
I am happy to take all refugees (and other immigrants), but only on the condition that they work and are a net positive for the economy, and that they dont get permanent residency and their kids born here arent made automatic citizens.
Posted by: Robert W at September 08, 2015 01:30 PM (suKOa)
357
Is this Drew M. or Allahpundit?
Posted by: Chris Balsz at September 08, 2015 01:49 PM (EioIi)
358
" The only rational move we have left is openly supporting and arming, and assisting a Kurdish state that takes in part of Iraq and Syria. Once we have accomplished that and helped the Kurds expand their territorial control as much as possible, we can then figure out what the next move is. "
The Kurds want part of Turkey and will test the possible in expanding their territorial control.
"As for the Turkish and Arabian opposition to such a move...ignore it."
1. Turkey is NATO. There is no "core" NATO. You split up NATO, you lose NATO.
2. Turkey borders Russia, who will gladly destroy NATO and help slaughter dissident minorities in Turkey.
So if you want a Moscow-Istanbul-Damascus axis, you can have it in about a month.
The Kurds want part of Turkey and will test the possible in expanding their territorial control.
"As for the Turkish and Arabian opposition to such a move...ignore it."
1. Turkey is NATO. There is no "core" NATO. You split up NATO, you lose NATO.
2. Turkey borders Russia, who will gladly destroy NATO and help slaughter dissident minorities in Turkey.
So if you want a Moscow-Istanbul-Damascus axis, you can have it in about a month.
Posted by: Chris Balsz at September 08, 2015 01:54 PM (EioIi)
359
I remember when Bush 1 chose to intervene in Somalia, in reaction to the horrific pictures the media was showing of the violence and starvation there. At the time, Chicago columnist Mike Royko (a Korea veteran) wrote that Bush should have sent the Somalis a condolance card and left it at that. Royko was callous, but he was closer to being right than Bush or Clinton were. And Billy Bob ended up pulling us out after the Blackhawk Down fight, the end result being that some very good men were in their graves and Somalia was no better off than it had been before.
As for Syria: to those who advocate intervention, I have one question:
What comprises victory? What *political* outcome do we want to have
happen there? Any "moderate middle" that may have existed has long since been crushed by the various factions of fanatics, all of whom hate our guts. If any faction in Syria wins, it will strengthen them for the fight against the Great Satan. It may well be that endless sectarian warfare is the optimal situation there.
And if the Russians intervene? Good! Let them spill their blood and treasure on that fool's errand.
As for Syria: to those who advocate intervention, I have one question:
What comprises victory? What *political* outcome do we want to have
happen there? Any "moderate middle" that may have existed has long since been crushed by the various factions of fanatics, all of whom hate our guts. If any faction in Syria wins, it will strengthen them for the fight against the Great Satan. It may well be that endless sectarian warfare is the optimal situation there.
And if the Russians intervene? Good! Let them spill their blood and treasure on that fool's errand.
Posted by: Brown Line at September 08, 2015 02:07 PM (zcbZo)
360
It's not so much that I want a war in Syria, as I reject the idea that American military defeat in Syria is an inevitable cold hard fact. If that's true then we have to rethink other ideas. Like the free movement of goods to the United States from all over the world, which is newer than the USS Missouri.
Posted by: Chris Balsz at September 08, 2015 04:19 PM (EioIi)
361
Screw those ungrateful barbarian sons of bitches. They can all pound sand and die.
Posted by: TwoDogs at September 08, 2015 06:27 PM (1HNby)
362
Putin would love for the U.S. and NATO to become preoccupied with a war in Syria. He would steamroll Ukraine just as soon as our militaries werefirmlystuck to the tar baby.
Posted by: Speller at September 08, 2015 06:30 PM (hHs1b)
363
This has already been decided. The propaganda is just to make us think WE decided it.
Posted by: They all lie every dang one at September 08, 2015 11:12 PM (4Z0vT)
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John Kerry's "Plan" Causes Surrender of Moqtada al-Sadr's Militia
World Muslim Leaders Apologize for Nick Berg's Beheading
Michael Moore Goes on Lunchtime Manhattan Death-Spree
Milestone: Oliver Willis Posts 400th "Fake News Article" Referencing Britney Spears
Liberal Economists Rue a "New Decade of Greed"
Artificial Insouciance: Maureen Dowd's Word Processor Revolts Against Her Numbing Imbecility
Intelligence Officials Eye Blogs for Tips
They Done Found Us Out, Cletus: Intrepid Internet Detective Figures Out Our Master Plan
Shock: Josh Marshall Almost Mentions Sarin Discovery in Iraq
Leather-Clad Biker Freaks Terrorize Australian Town
When Clinton Was President, Torture Was Cool
What Wonkette Means When She Explains What Tina Brown Means
Wonkette's Stand-Up Act
Wankette HQ Gay-Rumors Du Jour
Here's What's Bugging Me: Goose and Slider
My Own Micah Wright Style Confession of Dishonesty
Outraged "Conservatives" React to the FMA
An On-Line Impression of Dennis Miller Having Sex with a Kodiak Bear
The Story the Rightwing Media Refuses to Report!
Our Lunch with David "Glengarry Glen Ross" Mamet
The House of Love: Paul Krugman
A Michael Moore Mystery (TM)
The Dowd-O-Matic!
Liberal Consistency and Other Myths
Kepler's Laws of Liberal Media Bias
John Kerry-- The Splunge! Candidate
"Divisive" Politics & "Attacks on Patriotism" (very long)
The Donkey ("The Raven" parody)
News/Chat