Handcuffs, Not Kid Gloves
The Washington Times editorial on illegal immigration by Tony Blankley this morning really set me off (h/t Drudge), especially this part:
It does not help that a small but growing number have no intention to assimilate, as shone in these disturbing images captured yesterday noted on both the left and the right. It also inspired my to contact my Senators, Richard Burr (R) and Elizabeth Dole (R), to whom I sent the following email:
...The senators should remember that they are American senators, not Roman proconsuls. Nor is the chairman of the Judiciary Committee some latter-day Praetor Maximus. But if they would be dictators, it would be nice if they could at least be wise (until such time as the people can electorally forcefully project with a violent pedal thrust their regrettable backsides out of town). It was gut-wrenching (which in my case is a substantial event) to watch the senators prattle on in their idle ignorance concerning the manifold economic benefits that will accrue to the body politic if we can just cram a few million more uneducated illegals into the country. ( I guess ignorance loves company.) Beyond the Senate last week, in a remarkable example of intellectual integrity (in the face of the editorial positions of their newspapers) the chief economic columnists for the New York Times and The Washington Post — Paul Krugman and Robert Samuelson, respectively — laid out the sad facts regarding the economics of the matter. Senators, congressmen and Mr. President, please take note. Regarding the Senate's and the president's guest-worker proposals, The Post's Robert Samuelson writes: "Gosh, they're all bad ideas ... We'd be importing poverty. This isn't because these immigrants aren't hardworking, many are. Nor is it because they don't assimilate, many do. But they generally don't go home, assimilation is slow and the ranks of the poor are constantly replenished ... [It] is a conscious policy of creating poverty in the United States while relieving it in Mexico ... The most lunatic notion is that admitting more poor Latino workers would ease the labor market strains of retiring baby boomers ? Far from softening the social problems of an aging society, more poor immigrants might aggravate them by pitting older retirees against younger Hispanics for limited government benefits ... [Moreover], [i]t's a myth that the U.S. economy 'needs' more poor immigrants. [my bold, not in original - ed.]
As I stated in my email to the good senators, I'm completely behind the concept of immigration, but it must be legal immigration. Those who break our laws should be treated with handcuffs, not kid gloves. Update: The hihg school students who ran up the Mexican flag at Montebello HS (cluelessly but appropriately running the American flag in the "in distress" upside down position) were not from Montebello HS, but nearby El Rancho High School and both "a board member and the acting administrator of the El Rancho High School were present" according to Ward Brewer, who called Montebello and El Rancho high schools in running this story down. It sounds to me like a couple of folks need to be fired from El Rancho. Another reader who claims to be from the area states that many of the students and families of students from El Rancho are *gasp* illegals, though I have no way of verifying this.
Dear Senator, It is with a great deal of concern, and even anger that I write to you this morning, regarding the subject of illegal immigration before us this day. According to an article this morning in the Washington Times:And yet those of you in the Senate, including 73 percent of Republicans, support guest worker legislation, rewarding those that would break the law, repeating polices that have failed miserably in the past. This must not stand. Immigration must be legal. Amnesty is not an option. Illegals must leave this country, and return legally. Employers who hire illegals must be heavily fined. Illegal immigrants must be charged as felons. We must have our southern border sealed with fences and walls to enforce legal immigration, and prevent illegal immigration. I am but one voice of many, but mine is a loud voice, getting louder, with more than 60,000 influential readers coming to my conservative political blog (http://confederateyankee.mu.nu) last month alone. I will use that digital pulpit to highlight the fact that you specifically voted against the will of North Carolina's Republican voters. I will questions your motives. I will question your reasoning. I will examine your other legislation. I will examine your connection to lobbyists. And I will do so relentlessly. America is a land of immigrants. Immigration is good for America's soul. But this immigration must be legal, and every immigrant must come here legally, without exception. Those of us who can legally vote, including legal immigrants, will have it no other way. Sincerely,
Gallup Poll (March 27) finds 80 percent of the public wants the federal government to get tougher on illegal immigration. A Quinnipiac University Poll (March 3) finds 62 percent oppose making it easier for illegals to become citizens (72 percent in that poll don't even want illegals to be permitted to have driver's licenses). Time Magazine's recent poll (Jan. 24-26) found 75 percent favor "major penalties" on employers of illegals, 70 percent believe illegals increase the likelihood of terrorism and 57 percent would use military force at the Mexican-American border. An NBC/Wall Street Journal poll (March 10-13) found 59 percent opposing a guest-worker proposal, and 71 percent would more likely vote for a congressional candidate who would tighten immigration controls.
An IQ Research poll (March 10) found 92 percent saying that securing the U.S. border should be a top priority of the White House and Congress.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at 10:50 AM
Comments
1
Damn you and all your liberal blogger friends, you're ruining America.
Don't think you can weasel out of it, a few weeks ago you said that The President's plan of painting a spy plane in UN colors and hoping to get the American Pilot shot down by Saddam Hussein was a stupid plan and clearly a forgery.
Well, what do you have to say for yourself now, America-hater? The facts are clear: The President wanted to do it, therefore if you were against it, you hate America and The President and The Troops.
This is just another example of you liberal bloggers and Islamo-Fascist lovers subverting Our President's Wartime powers. I hope Ann Coulter kicks your skinny Democrap ass, Freedom-hater.
Don't think you can weasel out of it, a few weeks ago you said that The President's plan of painting a spy plane in UN colors and hoping to get the American Pilot shot down by Saddam Hussein was a stupid plan and clearly a forgery.
Well, what do you have to say for yourself now, America-hater? The facts are clear: The President wanted to do it, therefore if you were against it, you hate America and The President and The Troops.
This is just another example of you liberal bloggers and Islamo-Fascist lovers subverting Our President's Wartime powers. I hope Ann Coulter kicks your skinny Democrap ass, Freedom-hater.
Posted by: Why Do You Hate America? at March 29, 2006 01:41 PM (XUcXU)
2
Oh wait, you hate liberals too. I must have been confusing you with Al Franken.
Posted by: Why Do You Hate America? at March 29, 2006 01:45 PM (XUcXU)
3
Employers who hire illegals must be heavily fined.
Why not put them in handcuffs? Why not charge them as felons?
Why not put them in handcuffs? Why not charge them as felons?
Posted by: Sven at March 29, 2006 01:59 PM (fWTnt)
4
You seem to think the US Government is set-up to help out us "common" Americans.
It's not. It's set up to do the bidding of the corporations.
It doesn't matter what you (or I) want, it only matters what the corporations want.
If they want cheap labor, cheap labor they will get.
It's not. It's set up to do the bidding of the corporations.
It doesn't matter what you (or I) want, it only matters what the corporations want.
If they want cheap labor, cheap labor they will get.
Posted by: Robert at March 29, 2006 02:13 PM (ByaZN)
5
What part of "illegal" do the honorable senators not understand? By this twisted logic, if I show up with my camping gear and settle down on their "private property", I'm not a trespasser, merely "un-documented". Watch out boys and girls in congress, election day is coming!
Posted by: Tom TB at March 29, 2006 02:29 PM (Ffvoi)
6
If these illegal immigrants are taking jobs away from Americans (they're not), and this is a problem for those on the right(or the left), where is the outrage over outsourcing of customer service and manufacturing jobs? Those are jobs Americans actually WANT - as opposed to picking strawberries while being sprayed with insecticide. "American" corporations have moved tens of thousands of jobs South of the border. Everyone will make noises about "Illegal Immigration" and "Civil Rights", Congress will pass laws, but in the end nothing will change. This country is addicted to cheap labor. Always has been.
Posted by: Jake at March 29, 2006 02:36 PM (HDz9U)
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CY you got it right... My wife and I were in traffic court two weeks ago (wifes minor violation) they were at least four hispanic males for court. They were charged with FAILURE TO STOP FOR A SCHOOL BUS...YIKES!!! These guy's had no drivers license, no proof of insurance. no I.D. of any kind. No proof of residency. Furthermore they could not speak or understand english. The court provided a TAXPAYER FUNDED interpreter @ $80.00+ dollars an hour. They paid there fines and walked away. This is intolerable. These guy's were constuction workers. They pay no Taxes, they use county public TAXPAYER funded medical facilities. Their Kids go to Public schools (and don't speak english). At the time of their violation they were driving company trucks.... I totally agree with you we need to get them out of here and prosecute the companies that hire these guy's. The business owners know these guy's are illegal. They do not pay Social security, Medicare or workmans comp on them. I know alot of more than qualified construction workers that are unemployed. Do you think for a second that when these companies bid to build your house or build a road that they give you a discount because they only pay these guy's $5.00 an hour and no employer related taxes! I don't think so... We need to get off our collective rears and scream about this to our so called leaders. I went to MM's site and went through the roof. You are absolutely right, the school officials that took part in this need their asses fired. As I have stated in previous post's my wife is foreign born. My son was born overseas while I was stationed there (U.S. Citizen) it took over a year to apply and process for my lawfully wedded wife and American son to get Visa's and Passsorts. We had to provide all the necessary Medical Examinations, Affidavites of support, background investigations etc. So... If I had to do it they should have to. Amnesty is bullshit. Thats another invitation for more of them to come. Whether Latino's choose to believe it or not this is THE UNITED STATES of AMERICA not Mexico we are for the most part a collection of Law Abiding Immigrants. So if you are here legally you are all my brothers and sister. If you are not, you need to leave and come back after you have been documented and screened. This is a country based on the rule of law if you can't abide by it we don't need you!!!
Posted by: Faithful Patriot at March 29, 2006 02:39 PM (FzhYM)
8
So what do you propose to do with the 11 million illegals already in America? Deport them all? Please give me a feasible way of doing so.
What's the plan for makign sure Mexico sticks to its end of a new bargin helping stop illegal immigration?
I am of the mind that these illegals wouldn't be coming here if there WAS NO PLACE FOR THEM TO WORK. Thats the problem. Our ability to crave cheap labor for cheap goods and then turn the other way when asked to take responsiblity for it.
And news flash, sometimes the masses are wrong. Sometimes whatever is popular is not just.
What's the plan for makign sure Mexico sticks to its end of a new bargin helping stop illegal immigration?
I am of the mind that these illegals wouldn't be coming here if there WAS NO PLACE FOR THEM TO WORK. Thats the problem. Our ability to crave cheap labor for cheap goods and then turn the other way when asked to take responsiblity for it.
And news flash, sometimes the masses are wrong. Sometimes whatever is popular is not just.
Posted by: Nick D at March 29, 2006 03:11 PM (Y4d9q)
9
I agree with you Nick. Sometimes we are our own worst enemy. But, we have to do something these folks cannot be absorbed into our society by the wave of a magic wand. Just stop and think for a moment. These folks by and large are good hardworking people. But, they are not highly skilled. I donot mean thatin a derogatory manner. They earn $5.00 to $7.00 an hour. alot of these folks are senior's our social security system is going to collapse. Our medicare system is overburdened. At that wage scale most if not all will qualify for food stamps and public housing. I for one do not want to pay for all of that. Schools are at capacity now with students who can't speak english, teachers try to give them as much attention as they can but, what about the kids that their parents pay taxes. I don't blame anyone for wanting a better life but, there is a right way and a wrong way. There is no doubt their home countries Govt's are corrupt and there are no welfare systems. But, I as a vast majority of Americans cannot fix that problem. A program that rewards ciminals is not the answer.
I for one will vote against any of my elected officials that support an amnesty program.
I for one will vote against any of my elected officials that support an amnesty program.
Posted by: Faithful Patriot at March 29, 2006 03:55 PM (BuYeH)
10
What immigration problem?
Posted by: BigDuke at March 29, 2006 04:06 PM (kuyD/)
11
So what do you propose to do with the 11 million illegals already in America? Deport them all? Please give me a feasible way of doing so.
A former Border patrol supervisor has what sounds like a very workable plan I found over at Sister Toldjah’s site. It is too long to post in its entirety, but here are the main points:
The 1st order of business is to get Congress serious about stopping this flow. To actually do it will require several things to happen at once. There has to be a Guest Worker program. It should be run by the Homeland
Security and would have several steps.
The employer would place an order for the number of workers he would need for the year. He would guarantee to provide Housing, Medical and a legal wage. He would also withhold FICA and income taxes. 50% of the worker’s net wages would be held in an escrow account and paid to the worker upon his return to Mexico at the end of his contract.All contracts would be issued in Mexico. The Homeland Security team would have their offices in Mexico (U.S. Consulates could be used) and would screen all applicants for contract for health problems or a criminal record. No family members would be allowed to enter the United States as dependents of the worker. A spouse could have her own contract but could not bring any children.Illegals presently working in the United States could have their employer request that they be given a contract under the new program, but they would have to return to Mexico to make application for the contract. (Self-deportation.) All contracts would be for one year or less and would have to be renewed in Mexico.Enact laws requiring severe mandatory fines ($5000 per alien) for hiring an illegal alien outside of the Guest Worker Program and aggressively enforce them.
In short, you kill the market for illegal jobs by building a controlled legal market that is competitive, while simultaneously making the illegal market too risky to engage in. It will not result in mass government run deportations, but a gradual, economics-run repatriation of illegals.
What's the plan for makign [sic] sure Mexico sticks to its end of a new bargin [sic] helping stop illegal immigration?
First off, by making illegal immigration unprofitable as the plan above and similar ones would do, Mexico’s involvement wouldn’t matter. If we felt we needed to send a message, economic penalties would certainly suffice. Remember all those jobs that people are outsourcing? Tariffs imposed for non-cooperation can make those go away as well. They could of course retaliate with oil production, but they are more economically fragile than we are, and they know it.
I am of the mind that these illegals wouldn't be coming here if there WAS NO PLACE FOR THEM TO WORK. Thats the problem. Our ability to crave cheap labor for cheap goods and then turn the other way when asked to take responsiblity for it.
Again, taken care of by the plan above. There would be no place for them to work, because nobody would hire them, hence no attempt to try to illegally immigrate. What you and none on the left never mention is that by allowing illegals into the marketplace in the first place, they hurt low-skilled and trade-skilled Americans, most notably American blacks, recent legal immigrants, and young Americans. If you want more Americans off social services (which Democrats don't, they want the nanny state instead of independence), quite depressing the labor market. Americans will do the work, when they are paid a fare market rate for their efforts.
And news flash, sometimes the masses are wrong. Sometimes whatever is popular is not just.
You are correct, but this is not one of those times.
So what do you propose to do with the 11 million illegals already in America? Deport them all? Please give me a feasible way of doing so.
A former Border patrol supervisor has what sounds like a very workable plan I found over at Sister Toldjah’s site. It is too long to post in its entirety, but here are the main points:
The 1st order of business is to get Congress serious about stopping this flow. To actually do it will require several things to happen at once. There has to be a Guest Worker program. It should be run by the Homeland
Security and would have several steps.
The employer would place an order for the number of workers he would need for the year. He would guarantee to provide Housing, Medical and a legal wage. He would also withhold FICA and income taxes. 50% of the worker’s net wages would be held in an escrow account and paid to the worker upon his return to Mexico at the end of his contract.All contracts would be issued in Mexico. The Homeland Security team would have their offices in Mexico (U.S. Consulates could be used) and would screen all applicants for contract for health problems or a criminal record. No family members would be allowed to enter the United States as dependents of the worker. A spouse could have her own contract but could not bring any children.Illegals presently working in the United States could have their employer request that they be given a contract under the new program, but they would have to return to Mexico to make application for the contract. (Self-deportation.) All contracts would be for one year or less and would have to be renewed in Mexico.Enact laws requiring severe mandatory fines ($5000 per alien) for hiring an illegal alien outside of the Guest Worker Program and aggressively enforce them.
In short, you kill the market for illegal jobs by building a controlled legal market that is competitive, while simultaneously making the illegal market too risky to engage in. It will not result in mass government run deportations, but a gradual, economics-run repatriation of illegals.
What's the plan for makign [sic] sure Mexico sticks to its end of a new bargin [sic] helping stop illegal immigration?
First off, by making illegal immigration unprofitable as the plan above and similar ones would do, Mexico’s involvement wouldn’t matter. If we felt we needed to send a message, economic penalties would certainly suffice. Remember all those jobs that people are outsourcing? Tariffs imposed for non-cooperation can make those go away as well. They could of course retaliate with oil production, but they are more economically fragile than we are, and they know it.
I am of the mind that these illegals wouldn't be coming here if there WAS NO PLACE FOR THEM TO WORK. Thats the problem. Our ability to crave cheap labor for cheap goods and then turn the other way when asked to take responsiblity for it.
Again, taken care of by the plan above. There would be no place for them to work, because nobody would hire them, hence no attempt to try to illegally immigrate. What you and none on the left never mention is that by allowing illegals into the marketplace in the first place, they hurt low-skilled and trade-skilled Americans, most notably American blacks, recent legal immigrants, and young Americans. If you want more Americans off social services (which Democrats don't, they want the nanny state instead of independence), quite depressing the labor market. Americans will do the work, when they are paid a fare market rate for their efforts.
And news flash, sometimes the masses are wrong. Sometimes whatever is popular is not just.
You are correct, but this is not one of those times.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at March 29, 2006 04:19 PM (g5Nba)
12
Robert,
What rock do you live under? Corporations want the illegals? Maybe the big agriculutural outfits....but most corporations who want cheap labor just build plants in Mexico - they don't import illegals.
When I lived in San Diego the illegals were hired every day for about $20 per day mostly by contractors and landscapers. I guess those small outfits might be incorporated.....
But the problems do exist. There were quite a few Mexican nationals - people with money mind you - caught bringing their kids over the border to drop them off at bus stops in Chula Vista. Better education here - and they paid not taxes. Free health care to - we have to take care of the indigents.
The biggest problem is how to handle and control it all. Until that is solved - and until the government gets serious about solving it - nothing will change.
What rock do you live under? Corporations want the illegals? Maybe the big agriculutural outfits....but most corporations who want cheap labor just build plants in Mexico - they don't import illegals.
When I lived in San Diego the illegals were hired every day for about $20 per day mostly by contractors and landscapers. I guess those small outfits might be incorporated.....
But the problems do exist. There were quite a few Mexican nationals - people with money mind you - caught bringing their kids over the border to drop them off at bus stops in Chula Vista. Better education here - and they paid not taxes. Free health care to - we have to take care of the indigents.
The biggest problem is how to handle and control it all. Until that is solved - and until the government gets serious about solving it - nothing will change.
Posted by: Specter at March 29, 2006 04:55 PM (ybfXM)
13
For a wicked satire on the immigration problem and the proposed amenesty, see http://www.nicedoggie.net/2006/?p=456 for A Brilliant Proposal To Deal With Car Theft.
Posted by: Amber at March 29, 2006 05:10 PM (9uWiP)
14
Amnesty. PIMF.
Posted by: Amber at March 29, 2006 05:12 PM (9uWiP)
15
"What rock do you live under? Corporations want the illegals? Maybe the big agriculutural outfits....but most corporations who want cheap labor just build plants in Mexico - they don't import illegals."
Any corporation that deals with construction, landscaping, food service, or janitorial services benefits from illegal immigration. Just about every corporation deals with these in some form or another.
Republican's will never do anything that hurts the bottom line. They will use harsh enforcement of existing laws as a wedge issue for the '06 election then pass the guest worker plan that no one wants. In other words it will be what gay marriage was in 2004. The plan was spelled out in a memo from Lamar Smith to Karl Rove that was accidentally sent to the wrong fax machine in Sept. 2005.
Any corporation that deals with construction, landscaping, food service, or janitorial services benefits from illegal immigration. Just about every corporation deals with these in some form or another.
Republican's will never do anything that hurts the bottom line. They will use harsh enforcement of existing laws as a wedge issue for the '06 election then pass the guest worker plan that no one wants. In other words it will be what gay marriage was in 2004. The plan was spelled out in a memo from Lamar Smith to Karl Rove that was accidentally sent to the wrong fax machine in Sept. 2005.
Posted by: John Gillnitz at March 29, 2006 06:04 PM (eHLUP)
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i hate to go all new-agey right out of the box, but there is one, and only one, way to stop illegal immigration, and that is by severely punishing both the people, as individuals, and the corporations that hire illegals.
that's it.
we cannot, and will not, disciple mexico's behavior as a nation. we, as a nation, have shown neither the will or the ability.
we cannot stop the individuals who cross the border. each arrest is arresting a drop of rain in rainstorm. jailing one opens a job for another.
what is left is discipling our own behavior -- that is the new-agey part -- and specifically, the behavior of those fellow citizens who hire these people. it was said earlier, but if there are no jobs, there are no illegals.
that is the only thing that will work, and we are not prepared to do that, because it would mean and least two things:
1. there would have to have a living wage.
2. the people who hire illegals must go to jail.
we can bloviate all we want about what the mexicans need to realize. what we, as a nation, need to realize is that it is our brothers and sisters -- fellow citizens of the good ol' USA -- who are hiring these folks. they are betraying us. they, not the mexicans. the mexicans have nothing to betray.
that's it.
we cannot, and will not, disciple mexico's behavior as a nation. we, as a nation, have shown neither the will or the ability.
we cannot stop the individuals who cross the border. each arrest is arresting a drop of rain in rainstorm. jailing one opens a job for another.
what is left is discipling our own behavior -- that is the new-agey part -- and specifically, the behavior of those fellow citizens who hire these people. it was said earlier, but if there are no jobs, there are no illegals.
that is the only thing that will work, and we are not prepared to do that, because it would mean and least two things:
1. there would have to have a living wage.
2. the people who hire illegals must go to jail.
we can bloviate all we want about what the mexicans need to realize. what we, as a nation, need to realize is that it is our brothers and sisters -- fellow citizens of the good ol' USA -- who are hiring these folks. they are betraying us. they, not the mexicans. the mexicans have nothing to betray.
Posted by: @#$! at March 29, 2006 06:18 PM (S0c7k)
17
Visiting Lefty here -- and I deeply apologize for all the fools on my side of the fence who want to be nice to the poor, oppressed illegals (sorry, "undocumented workers," or whatever the euphemism du jour is). But what's your excuse for the Republican pols, huh?
This is something that both sides should be able to agree on -- there are far too many Americans out of work, or under-employed, for us to justify giving ANY American jobs away to illegals. To Jake, who said they're NOT taking American jobs away -- please, I don't understand how you could possibly say that. If the illegals weren't here, the jobs WOULD be taken by Americans -- because the employers would be forced to pay free-market (which means: HIGHER) wages -- wages for which Americans would happily work. Isn't it funny how these staunch supporters of the free market suddenly blanche, have attacks of the vapors, and yell for Uncle Sugar to give them a nice amnesty program by which they can continue to pay SUB-market wages to people who shouldn't be part of the market at all.
And if THIS doesn't prove to you that the Republican politicians are NOT ON YOUR SIDE (except when it comes to RHETORIC), then I don't know what will.
Not that any of our Dem "leaders" are any bettter on this issue, of course. They're ALL selling us down the river for their corporate masters -- and we're ALL just standing here and taking it! Why is that?
This is something that both sides should be able to agree on -- there are far too many Americans out of work, or under-employed, for us to justify giving ANY American jobs away to illegals. To Jake, who said they're NOT taking American jobs away -- please, I don't understand how you could possibly say that. If the illegals weren't here, the jobs WOULD be taken by Americans -- because the employers would be forced to pay free-market (which means: HIGHER) wages -- wages for which Americans would happily work. Isn't it funny how these staunch supporters of the free market suddenly blanche, have attacks of the vapors, and yell for Uncle Sugar to give them a nice amnesty program by which they can continue to pay SUB-market wages to people who shouldn't be part of the market at all.
And if THIS doesn't prove to you that the Republican politicians are NOT ON YOUR SIDE (except when it comes to RHETORIC), then I don't know what will.
Not that any of our Dem "leaders" are any bettter on this issue, of course. They're ALL selling us down the river for their corporate masters -- and we're ALL just standing here and taking it! Why is that?
Posted by: smartalek at March 29, 2006 10:34 PM (kUXZr)
18
Walmart is one of the biggest employers of illegal aliens in the country although they try to hide the fact by using firms that hire illegals so that they don't get sued.
Posted by: madmatt at March 30, 2006 10:02 AM (J8hqn)
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It's like the drug problem. As long as Americans have a craving for cocaine, some enterprising indiviuals will find a way to provide it. As long as US employers crave low wage workers, enterprising Mexicans will be here to fill the jobs. Don't kid yourself, illegal Mexicans are now doing jobs that many Americans would love to have. I was at a construction site in Washington State last year and observed that there were very few Engish speakers to be seen. Mexicans were framing, hanging drywall etc. I have nothing against Mexicans, but I curse the construction company that sold American jobs down the river.
Posted by: Randy at March 30, 2006 12:32 PM (XtZLb)
20
smartalek - you're honestly making the point that americans would pick strawberries and lettuce with no bathrooms and no protection against the cropdusting? the agricultural industry wouldn't survive the retooling needed to bring wages and conditions up to american standards, even as low as they've become lately.
there are jobs americans just won't do anymore. funny you should mention the free market - it's free market forces that bring the flow of cheap labor north from mexico and central america. all the supporters of nafta seem to think that it's good and proper for goods and capital to flow across the borders freely, but somehow not labor. whether republican or democrat or whatever, i see a lot of people like smartalek laboring under the misconception that (as you just posited)if all the illegals were somehow regulated, deported, whatever, that "free market forces" would bring the wages up to a point where americans would want them. nice fantasy. surprised to see a "lefty" trotting out that tired canard. "free market" in today's america means "unchecked capitalist greed" - see the wal mart post above. that's your free market for ya. outsourcing, selling our ports to dubai, enron, worldcom...
assuming our agricultural industries could adjust to a completely new wage structure and pool of (imaginary)american workers is just that -an assumption with no basis in fact. they've got you distracted with this immigrant boondoggle - the real american middle class manufacturing and service sector jobs are going overseas. if you think migrant farm labor and carwash jobs are going to drive american prosperity, you are deluded enough to be a bush supporter. i know you're happy to have a little wedge issue to taunt the righties with, but both sides have been wrong on this issue for a long, long time.
have you ever heard of the phillipines? or puerto rico? or guam? there are plenty of other sources of non-native cheap labor. so build your fence. throw out every single illegal from mexico, etc. both guam and pr are american territories so there is no documentation issue. the corporate masters of both parties will do all they can to keep wages low, corporate taxes likewise.
there are jobs americans just won't do anymore. funny you should mention the free market - it's free market forces that bring the flow of cheap labor north from mexico and central america. all the supporters of nafta seem to think that it's good and proper for goods and capital to flow across the borders freely, but somehow not labor. whether republican or democrat or whatever, i see a lot of people like smartalek laboring under the misconception that (as you just posited)if all the illegals were somehow regulated, deported, whatever, that "free market forces" would bring the wages up to a point where americans would want them. nice fantasy. surprised to see a "lefty" trotting out that tired canard. "free market" in today's america means "unchecked capitalist greed" - see the wal mart post above. that's your free market for ya. outsourcing, selling our ports to dubai, enron, worldcom...
assuming our agricultural industries could adjust to a completely new wage structure and pool of (imaginary)american workers is just that -an assumption with no basis in fact. they've got you distracted with this immigrant boondoggle - the real american middle class manufacturing and service sector jobs are going overseas. if you think migrant farm labor and carwash jobs are going to drive american prosperity, you are deluded enough to be a bush supporter. i know you're happy to have a little wedge issue to taunt the righties with, but both sides have been wrong on this issue for a long, long time.
have you ever heard of the phillipines? or puerto rico? or guam? there are plenty of other sources of non-native cheap labor. so build your fence. throw out every single illegal from mexico, etc. both guam and pr are american territories so there is no documentation issue. the corporate masters of both parties will do all they can to keep wages low, corporate taxes likewise.
Posted by: jake at March 30, 2006 12:38 PM (HDz9U)
21
I have several thoughts on this subject that are bothering me. First, most of the businesses large and small that employee illegals pay less than the minimum wage. But congress seems to think this is ok, so those businesses that follow the federal dictates lose contracts or must close because of the minimum wage issue. This seems ok with our congressional representatives. Second, the main power in the Democratic party (aside from special interest) is the labor unions. Yet the Democratic party is very much for the cheaper labor thus undermining their base. Third, the media and some states are forcing Wal-Mart to provide health insurance. Yet our politicians and the media support the businesses that employ the illegals who clearly do not provide any fringe benefit. Finally, if the illegals are allowed to stay then they will be registered and are no longer cheap labor. They will then be replaced by another batch of illegals who work cheaper. The first group will then be on welfare. Is something wrong with the logic here? As to writing your congressman, do they really listen? Mine don't.
Posted by: David Caskey, MD at March 30, 2006 12:39 PM (6wTpy)
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The plan seems solid to me on many levels. It definitly makes it not worth it to business to hire illegals. However Self deportation? For some reason unless we get real serious real quick, thats never going to happen.
And doesn't it seem awfully beaurcratic to you? It seems like it give Homeland Security another tool to be inept. I would have to place in Labor or Commerce .
And secondly I resent the fact that you believe all Democrats want a welfare state, and all liberals wont talk about the minorities here that are jobless b/c of illegals.
First off most hard working middle class Dems arent for welfare/socialist states. We want to make sure everyone can be protected from the beast of capitialism if they one day need it. Some would suggest Republicans will never relate to that, but I won't slander you all.
Second, if there was such a demand for these jobs by our underclass citizens, then why are they there? Why aren't they taken up with the giddyness people believe they have for them. Its because no American wants them. Even in our poorest people can have too much pride.
And doesn't it seem awfully beaurcratic to you? It seems like it give Homeland Security another tool to be inept. I would have to place in Labor or Commerce .
And secondly I resent the fact that you believe all Democrats want a welfare state, and all liberals wont talk about the minorities here that are jobless b/c of illegals.
First off most hard working middle class Dems arent for welfare/socialist states. We want to make sure everyone can be protected from the beast of capitialism if they one day need it. Some would suggest Republicans will never relate to that, but I won't slander you all.
Second, if there was such a demand for these jobs by our underclass citizens, then why are they there? Why aren't they taken up with the giddyness people believe they have for them. Its because no American wants them. Even in our poorest people can have too much pride.
Posted by: Nick D at March 30, 2006 03:00 PM (Y4d9q)
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Shoveling shit against the tide for 40 hours a week is a terrible job no Americans would want.
BUT, shoveling shit against the tide for 40 hours a week at $35/ hour is something i think many Americans could handle.
The jobs don't suck, the pay does.
The person up-post who says those that believe in the invisible hand of the free market suddenly blanche is 100% correct.
If strawberries cost $20 a pint because we have to pay $15/hour to Americans who pick them, then demand for strawberries may go down. Isn't that a free market effect?
BUT, shoveling shit against the tide for 40 hours a week at $35/ hour is something i think many Americans could handle.
The jobs don't suck, the pay does.
The person up-post who says those that believe in the invisible hand of the free market suddenly blanche is 100% correct.
If strawberries cost $20 a pint because we have to pay $15/hour to Americans who pick them, then demand for strawberries may go down. Isn't that a free market effect?
Posted by: Robert at March 30, 2006 06:56 PM (ByaZN)
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I don't really have much else to add to this immigration debate that hasn't already been said by someone else above, but I will say this: I'm about sick of the characterization of illegal immigrants having committed "crimes" and of being themselves "criminals." I really want to know if people who honestly think that(and aren't simply flogging a talking point to death) really believe if illegal immigrants are on par with thieves, murderers, rapists, drug dealers, child abusers, embezzlers and the other assorted types of criminals we lock up in our prisons. Yeah it's true that if you make an act a crime, and someone commits that act, then they are a criminal. But it's not the same thing, and I don't honestly know how anyone can think so; there's just not any criminal culpability there, like real criminals possess. Whatever you think of them, most illegals are just trying to get over here to work so they can send some money home to their families, and I don't really know how that can be characterized as a "crime" in the common sense meaning of the word. So all this talk about treating them with handcuffs, just like we drug dealers and murderers, is ridiculous.
Posted by: Alexander Wolfe at April 01, 2006 01:03 PM (018Z+)
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Isn't reconquista the same as Zionism?
Posted by: Isrealcool at April 01, 2006 11:30 PM (piepP)
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There are many jobs that American workers will not do because of low wages, no benefits, and bad working conditions. But if the pay and benefits are good, they will do them, which is clearly demonstated by the fact that there are many Americans willing to work as coal miners, a dirty and dangerous job, because the pay is good.
As far as the agricultural industry is concerned it is totally unacceptable for anybody (even illegal aliens) to be expected to work without protection from cropdusting. This simply should not be permitted, no matter who is doing it. Without the illegal aliens things like porta potties would have to be supplied the agricultural workers, just as they are for construction workers. With higher labor costs, a lot of the back-breaking work would be done by machines with workers driving them while sitting in air conditioned cabs.
As far as the agricultural industry is concerned it is totally unacceptable for anybody (even illegal aliens) to be expected to work without protection from cropdusting. This simply should not be permitted, no matter who is doing it. Without the illegal aliens things like porta potties would have to be supplied the agricultural workers, just as they are for construction workers. With higher labor costs, a lot of the back-breaking work would be done by machines with workers driving them while sitting in air conditioned cabs.
Posted by: CaptainVideo at April 02, 2006 07:58 PM (Qs6g6)
27
I would say that illegal aliens are on par with American tourists who bring items subject to import duties bought abroad into the country without declaring them so that they can avoid paying import duties on them. But they are not on par with bank robbers, or something similar.
Posted by: CaptainVideo at April 02, 2006 08:04 PM (Qs6g6)
28
"Illegal immigrants" are not "immigrants," they are criminals. If any of us were to drive without a license we expect to be punished. An illegal alien who was pulled over and handcuffed is now claiming that the handcuffs hurt her and violated her civil rights.
Those who state that all of "the people" have rights need to reread the Constitution, not just the Bill of Rights, but the Constitution, particularly the 14th Amendment (1866) where citizenship was defined. The "people" were given definition. Certainly, we accord visitors in our country certain rights, but to reward criminals with the rights that we, our ancestors, and fellow citizens fought and died for is a travesty. We are shouldering the responsibilities of maintaining and securing this land for ourselves and our children. In order to do these, we must include immigrants seeking legal employment, persons requesting shelter from a hostile, abusive government, and those who wish to join us as citizens of our great land.
Those who come as criminals, earn money as illegal workers, send their money to a foreign country to support that countries citizens and benefit from the services provided by our citizens are not shouldering responsibility. I was aghast when I found that they could apply for a tax ID number so that they could pay taxes! They are saying that this entitles them to our rights. They believe that tax money is all that we require of them? The few dollars that a handful of these criminals pay from the minimum wage jobs that they claim our citizens do not want is a not even a drop in the bucket.
We give much more than tax money. We have served and many have died in our military. We vote. We serve on juries. We volunteer in our communities. We run for elected office and support our candidates and elected officials. We are Americans. We do not take our citizenship lightly and we surely can't give it away to satisfy an ever-increasing mass of criminals who call themselves "illegal aliens..."
It is time that we stood up and were counted!
Those who state that all of "the people" have rights need to reread the Constitution, not just the Bill of Rights, but the Constitution, particularly the 14th Amendment (1866) where citizenship was defined. The "people" were given definition. Certainly, we accord visitors in our country certain rights, but to reward criminals with the rights that we, our ancestors, and fellow citizens fought and died for is a travesty. We are shouldering the responsibilities of maintaining and securing this land for ourselves and our children. In order to do these, we must include immigrants seeking legal employment, persons requesting shelter from a hostile, abusive government, and those who wish to join us as citizens of our great land.
Those who come as criminals, earn money as illegal workers, send their money to a foreign country to support that countries citizens and benefit from the services provided by our citizens are not shouldering responsibility. I was aghast when I found that they could apply for a tax ID number so that they could pay taxes! They are saying that this entitles them to our rights. They believe that tax money is all that we require of them? The few dollars that a handful of these criminals pay from the minimum wage jobs that they claim our citizens do not want is a not even a drop in the bucket.
We give much more than tax money. We have served and many have died in our military. We vote. We serve on juries. We volunteer in our communities. We run for elected office and support our candidates and elected officials. We are Americans. We do not take our citizenship lightly and we surely can't give it away to satisfy an ever-increasing mass of criminals who call themselves "illegal aliens..."
It is time that we stood up and were counted!
Posted by: Margie at April 27, 2006 12:23 AM (itqg3)
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People who march into our country illegally in mass, try to change our national policy while remaining a citizen of another country, and place our flag in the conquered position are not people who wish to assimilate into our country and culture. Those who put another country's flag above ours, and put ours in the conquered position should either be considered invaders, or citizens whose actions are paramount to treason. We should treat them as such.
Posted by: Michael S. Hartman at May 01, 2006 12:23 AM (eEpFH)
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