Confederate Yankee
May 18, 2007
Goodbye, GOP
Ace's suggestion sounds about right to me:
Write, call, and fax your Congressmen and Senators -- especially Republican ones -- and let them know you will never vote for them or their party again should the immigration bill actually pass.
And let them know that you don't particularly trust them on national security, spending, or taxes either, so they won't wrongly believe those trump cards will still win the hand for them. Let them know if this isn't scuttled -- if the border isn't secured first, verifiably, before any amnesty legislation passes -- you will no longer vote for, volunteer for, or donate to any Republican candidate for any office ever again.
Not a dime, not a vote.
It's time to let them know they're walking into the abyss. Inform them in no uncertain terms that they are attempting to purchase the votes of new "Americans" who split 5:1 Democratic by losing your reliably conservative vote forever.
I've never felt I owed anything to the Republican party.
I told my Senators Elizabeth Dole and Richard Burr last night:
Senator, my name is Bob Owens. I run a conservative political blog called Confederate Yankee (http://confederateyankee.mu.nu/) that 90,000-100,000 opinionmakers visit each month.
Tonight, I will tell my readers, conservative Republicans, fence-sitting conservative Democrats and moderates, that if the Senate passes the pending illegal alien amnesty bill, that I will formally abandon the Republican party, as it has abandoned me. I will then ask them to do the same. I will ask that they refuse to contribute to Republican campaigns. I will ask them to stay at home and refuse to vote for Republican candidates, or even consider voting for Democrats in protest in 2008.
I am not alone.
Kill this amnesty bill
But you know what? I lied.
There is no "if, then" here. There are no longer any conditionals left. I'm simple done with today's iteration of the "Grand Old Party."
This amnesty bill was merely the straw that broke the camel's back.
I've just downloaded and printed my
North Carolina Voter Registration Application/Update form.
I'm re-registering as "unaffiliated."
Goodbye, GOP.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
08:21 AM
| Comments (32)
| Add Comment
| Trackbacks (Suck)
1
Bob,
It's not funny, but I had to laugh.
You know I come from the other side of the political spectrum, but I'm as fed up as you are - only at the Democratic Party.
For the first time since I turned 21, I an considering registering as unaffiliated.
We live in a country where you can choose from 65 kinds of toothpaste, an entire aisle of breakfast cereal, but only two people for president.
If I have to choose in 2008 between Hillary Clinton and a guy who thinks the Left Behind series is nonfiction, I'm going to eat my gun.
Posted by: David Terrenoire at May 18, 2007 08:30 AM (kxecL)
2
It used to be who you wanted in office,
Then it was for the lesser of two evils,
Now it's for who will screw up the country less.
Posted by: Retired Navy at May 18, 2007 09:28 AM (cqZXM)
3
Hmmmm.
I hate to say this but I kinda long for the good old days when all I had to worry about was the Soviets.
Posted by: memomachine at May 18, 2007 09:47 AM (3pvQO)
4
interesting cy
maybe there is room for a hostile takeover of the democratic wing of the Democrats. While I disagree with many (many, many) of their positions, I have to admire their rock-solid discipline and willingness to fight extremely hard for their goal. Characteristics that have been sorely lacking in the stupid party (GOP) since RR.
But, nah. I am sure the elite in the Dem party ignore their folks as much as the R's do. With gerrymandered seats, free speech limitations, and donation limitations both parties have engineered themselves a pretty sweet deal at the expense of the electorate. Just political karaoke/kabuki with nothing really changing.
Posted by: iconoclast at May 18, 2007 09:59 AM (TzLpv)
5
I vote for the conservative candidate,while avoiding third parties, but I have not seen one for years. What does the future hold? My guess is more of the same. Can we change it? Only if there is a WE to make the change.
I am not optimistic.
Posted by: Mekan at May 18, 2007 10:15 AM (hm8tW)
6
Does it matter anymore? Are there any leaders left in America? I am a conservative and have never considered myself a party.
Posted by: Mekan at May 18, 2007 10:17 AM (hm8tW)
7
I have to agree with everyone else. As a conservative, I have felt that the Republicans are only giving us lip service. With this amnesty bill it is obvious that we have been given the finger as well. Watch for them to come up with an emotional topic such as abortion to rally the base.
Posted by: David Caskey,MD at May 18, 2007 10:56 AM (G5i3t)
8
Dr. Caskey,
You and I have disagreed in the past on things, but on that we agree. The GOP will pull out Gays, God and Guns, just as before, and hope it plays.
In the meantime, the Democrats will run against Bush and the war and promise to buy everyone a puppy.
Conservative, liberal, I don't really care. I just want some honesty and competence. Is that too much to ask?
Posted by: David Terrenoire at May 18, 2007 11:04 AM (kxecL)
9
Mr. Terrenoire,
I think you are on the money. I would even forgive some dishonesty (sometimes needed for security, especially UFO cover ups jk), as long as we had competence. This plutocracy must not continue. We are a democratic republic dag-gumit.
Posted by: Mekan at May 18, 2007 01:11 PM (hm8tW)
10
I am hoping for a Conservative Party because that would look nothing like the Republican Party, so who is going to step up and start one, Duncan Hunter, maybe Tom Tancredo though he is a little to isolationist for me but still has good conservative values and really according to Lindsay Graham in a speech before Hispanics http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5sEfrFoAIn4 would call these two guys bigots. I would suggest that gets them extra points.
Posted by: Jaded at May 18, 2007 01:55 PM (0lpqx)
11
A guy at work told be deciding between voting republican or democrat is like deciding which toilet to drink from...
Posted by: Ray Robison at May 18, 2007 02:10 PM (Cgo1/)
12
Changed from R to Unaffiliated right after the last primary (missed the deadline), although I voted Republican in every race, for much the same reason.
It's been stated elsewhere, and frequently, that the time to worry was when the government refused to stand for re-election.
In indirect ways, that's exactly how things have been going since the escalation of gerry-mandering districts, BCRA, the lawsuits after every election, and now the move to re-design the electoral college vote allocations.
They're too smart to come right out and admit it but the electorate has been given less and less choice with each move.
Posted by: Cindi at May 18, 2007 02:55 PM (asVsU)
13
You can change your voter registration online if you live in California. I just did.
Voter Registration Online
Posted by: Gabriel at May 18, 2007 03:30 PM (NTVio)
14
So what now? I reregistered independent almost 12 year ago because I saw this coming. There isn't any liberal/conservative divide in politics anymore. There's corporate friendly bought and paid for polititions on both sides of the isle who bring up trivialities like gay marraige and gun control so we won't notice that the middle and working classes are being sold down the river.
This whole immigration thing is about one thing only: Cheap labor. It started with NAFTA and MFN trade status for China. Thanks a lot Willy. But Bush 41 would have done the same if he'd have stayed in office. And now that there are fewer and fewer living wage jobs they want to open the borders and get scabs who aren't even Americans to take away what's left. And the really nasty part is that even the scabs are getting screwed. They come here because they were promised a better life. What really happens is they have it worse here than if they just stayed home.
The Republicans are not going to do anything about it because most of them are in office via corporate money that they need to stay in office. Tha Dems won't do anything because most of them got where they are by pandering to minority interests.
I hate to say this, because I laughed at him in the eighties, but Ross Perot was right.
So what do we do now?
Posted by: iaintbacchus at May 18, 2007 04:17 PM (mYHGQ)
15
The Republican's hideous record on gay issues hasn't soured me on them enough to vote Democrat, immigration won't do it either.
I do believe this particular bill is a huge slap across the faces of the American people, I can't believe Bush said this is a "good bi-partisan bill," and I do wish Republicans would behave like Republicans again, but there are many more issues I trust Republicans with than Democrats.
Politicians suck, that's nothing new.
Posted by: DoorHold at May 20, 2007 11:50 AM (1baxJ)
16
OK. I'm with you. The only choice left to the
voters is for the form of big-government which
we'd prefer. There's no one around who stands for
constitutional principles and limited government.
It's left-wing corruption or right-wing corruption. That's it.
But what-next? Let's suppose we all register as
unaffiliated or independent or whatever our states
call it. Then what? In PA, the only thing that
accomplishes is to give me even less of a voice,
since I can then vote in neither primary.
What will re-registering accomplish? I've already
stopped donating to the RNC, but I'm not going
to switch my registration until there's something
useful I can do with it.
I'm interested to hear where you plan to
go from here.
Posted by: x at May 20, 2007 06:03 PM (bqZHH)
17
Well maybe if people stopped voting along party lines and actually voted for the person that best represented their view (I would say issue(s) but that is just as bad as voting for a party) of the world we would not elect idiots like these. None of this is surprising in the least.
For all of those that are registering unaffiliated, can you please tell me that you will at least consider voting for the other party if their candidate best suits your views?
Posted by: JW NC at May 21, 2007 05:06 PM (88FOa)
Hide Comments
| Add Comment
May 17, 2007
AG Gone?
If the Paper Chase is correct, Attorney General Alberto Gonzalez may soon be on his way out:
Senator Arlen Specter (R-PA), the ranking Republican on the Senate Judiciary Committee, predicted Thursday that Attorney General Alberto Gonzales will resign from his post at the conclusion of current investigations into the allegedly-political firings of federal prosecutors. Specter's comments followed others made by Senator Chuck Hagel (R-NE) Wednesday, who suggested that by remaining in his position, Gonzales was harming the Justice Department. Senator Pat Roberts (R-KS) concurred, telling the Associated Press that it was noteworthy that Gonzales is spending more time on Capitol Hill defending himself than working as the Attorney General.
I'll be depressed when this happens.
Really.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
05:33 PM
| Comments (17)
| Add Comment
| Trackbacks (Suck)
1
No need to feel depressed conyank, he ain't goin' nowhere (yet). Bush's worst fear right now is an honest man as A.G.
Posted by: ec1009 at May 17, 2007 05:46 PM (xcGis)
2
ec1009, great innuendo, but you offer no logical discussion as to why President Bush would fear an honest AG, or that the current AG is not honest. Your hate Bush rhetoric is tired and old, simply not worth the time to type this response.
Now I am no fan of our AG. He is weak and a bumbler, but to back down yet again to Democrat bully tactics is tragic.
Posted by: mekan at May 18, 2007 06:07 AM (a8Oey)
3
He better step down! Come on, a politician politicizing a political appointment. Wow, thats actually tough to spell. Hope I got it right.
Posted by: Justin at May 18, 2007 03:40 PM (NiTuu)
Hide Comments
| Add Comment
Waiting for Sderot
Did you hear about the high school hit yesterday by a pair of missiles?
Of course you didn't. It was an Israeli school in Sderot that was struck, and the missiles were fired by Hamas.
A quick Google search of news outlets shows that this kind of school violence is apparently not newsworthy by the standards of our gatekeeper media.
To be fair, Google News did not capture all mentions of the story (NOTE: see update below).
The New York
Times mentioned the attack in passing in the ninth paragraph of
this story, which was focused almost exclusively on Israel's retaliatory air strike against Hamas commanders.
CNN followed a similar pattern, kindly donating a few words about the high school attack in the tenth paragraph of a story focused on Israel's air strike and the Hamas-Fatah not-civil war.
Only CBN covered the attack on the high school with
any depth at all:
Palestinian terrorists in Gaza launched at least 11 Kassam rockets at the besieged Israeli city of Sderot Thursday, hitting a high school and a greenhouse in another Israeli community in the western Negev. Scores of rockets have fallen in the area this week, forcing thousands of residents to seek shelter elsewhere.
Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert has promised a "harsh and severe" response to the rocket attacks, which could include the renewal of targeted assassinations of terrorist groups in Gaza or eventually even a military reinvasion of the Gaza Strip.
Two rockets hit the high school in the Shaar HaNegev Regional Council as students met in fortified classrooms to take their matriculation exams in mathematics.
The Kassams damaged an unfortified section of the building and lightly injured two people. Several others suffered shock.
Rueters' Nidal al-Mughrabi
completely neglected to mention the attack on the high school, even though his story was side-barred by these pictures of the attack.
Caption: An Israeli firefighter surveys the scene after a rocket, fired by Palestinian militants, landed in a high school classroom in the southern town of Sderot May 17, 2007. REUTERS/Gil Cohen Magen
Caption: Israeli students embrace during a rocket attack at their high school in the southern town of Sderot May 17, 2007. REUTERS/Gil Cohen Magen
Caption: Israeli students hold their hands up to their faces on the scene of a rocket attack at their high school in the southern town of Sderot May 17, 2007. REUTERS/Gil Cohen Magen
The news outlets of the world apparently have little interest in the attack on an Israeli school, but instead bend over backwards to write more than
2,500 3,000 stories about the results of the Israeli air force targeting Hamas leaders who are blamed for ordering the attacks on Sderot.
Update: A reader at
Wizbang! noted that the Google search I ran for "Sderot high school missile" was incorrect, as a rocket, not a missile, was used by Hamas. I then ran a Google News search on "Sderot high school rocket," and the search hits jumped dramatically... no,
not really.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
11:03 AM
| Comments (31)
| Add Comment
| Trackbacks (Suck)
1
Actually, the news I heard was that the Israelis bombed hamas in retaliation for a rocket attack.
No mention, of course, that the rocket attack hit a school.
Just those mean Israelis shooting at Hamas.
Posted by: iamnot at May 17, 2007 11:14 AM (onj4J)
2
I am a die-hard liberal, but I hope Israel kicks Palestinian ass. Israel left the Gaza Strip and now it is nothing but an area of war-torn trash. The double standard is with our foriegn policy. If that was an American school, we would topple a country. Israel is the only civilized country in the Mideast, it should protect itself with an excessive amount of force.
By the way we need to get out of Iraq.
Posted by: dallas at May 17, 2007 11:35 AM (ZMnnP)
3
By the way we need to get out of Iraq.
So you want Iraq to be like the Gaza Strip?
Posted by: 1sttofight at May 17, 2007 11:39 AM (51r8a)
4
"Buildings being damaged just isn't particularly noteworthy if there is no body count."
Scochu John - Unless your children are attending that school!
Posted by: Wyatt Earp at May 17, 2007 12:27 PM (p/5A/)
5
Umbrage - Wow, you just copied and pasted THE EXACT COMMENT you left at Wizbang. Now that's what I call lazy!
Posted by: Wyatt Earp at May 17, 2007 12:29 PM (p/5A/)
6
Folks, I'm going to ask you to please re-read the comments policy, and stop with the profanity and personal insults.
I can delete 'em a lot fast than you can write 'em, and I can ban your IP even faster than that.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at May 17, 2007 12:36 PM (9y6qg)
7
You know, I wasn't surprised at the unbalanced media response.
What I was surprised at was my own reaction. Several of the news stories thus googled included mentions that the area was a favorite rocket target, and that Sderot high school was "unprotected" or "unfortified". "Oh," I thought to myself, "that explains why... um, it's okay that..." and then realized I was triggered by those words into trying to rationalize the actions of terrorists.
Why should ANYONE have to fortify a high school? I mean it. Why should anyone ANYWNHERE have to fortify a high school? Or an elementary school, for that matter.
An eye for an eye was not, as most people think, the harsh retaliation and draconian punishment dictated by the Bible. It was the absolute maximum. And therein lies the rub. When Israel retaliates, even if the number of dead or wounded is lower or zero, even if no civilians (as opposed to terrorists) are killed, even if no property is damaged except ostensibly paramilitary property, any response at all is called "harsh".
Meanwhile a rocket attack is just another day.
Posted by: BlueNight at May 17, 2007 02:49 PM (imTbG)
8
By the way we need to stay in Iraq.
So you want Nashville to be like the Gaza strip?
Posted by: TMink at May 18, 2007 07:31 AM (PxDOJ)
9
One article I read mentioned rockets hitting the school but no mention whatsoever of where they came from and who fired them. I guess rockets fire themselves...the same way SUVs and guns kill people all on their own.
Posted by: Peg C. at May 18, 2007 07:45 AM (S0aeA)
10
"dallas" wrote:"I am a die-hard liberal, but I hope Israel kicks Palestinian ass."
The "but" in that sentence is quite revealing. It illustrates perfectly the difference between "liberals" and "Liberals". The former would replace the "but" with "therefore".
Posted by: GPChicago at May 18, 2007 08:38 AM (RF6oq)
11
And so it goes. Evil Israelis pound poor Palestinians. Just 'cause they don't like them, I guess.
Posted by: M. A. George at May 18, 2007 09:27 AM (kYfdk)
12
Sderot is a city in the Southern District of Israel. Sderot lies a kilometer from the Gaza Strip. Since the beginning of the al-Aqsa Intifada in October 2000, the city has been frequently attacked by Hamas and Islamic Jihad militants using homemade rockets known as “Qassam rockets”. Although they are very inaccurate, these attacks have resulted in a number of deaths and injuries as well as causing psychological distress among the residents. Hundreds of Qassam rockets were launched from the Gaza Strip since Israel removed all permanent Israeli presence in the Gaza Strip and from four settlements in the northern West Bank in September 2005.
That’s right: As an overture to peace Israel volunteered to remove all permanent Israeli presence in the Gaza Strip and from four settlements in the northern West Bank back in 2005. Hamas is showing their overture to peace by filling Gaza with crude rockets and bombarding Israeli civilian areas … including schools. And yet Hamas has the gall to call the Israeli defensive response to this bombardment “an open war launched against Hamas”?
Posted by: Shamalama at May 18, 2007 11:26 AM (fe/Mk)
13
For all the woes and weepings by the Gazans, I wonder where the money has come from that paid for the multistory buildings and new cars they have, in addition to the guns, ammo and rockets they lob at Israeli schoolchildren and homes. Perhaps the way to end their wars whether against Israel/is or other Gazan factions, would be to strangle their money supply even more than what the current boycott is doing.
Posted by: American-Israeli at May 18, 2007 02:08 PM (ngPoq)
14
Why didn't you not that the Israelis are only crying because the Reuters cameras are there? I mean, if a guy is not allowed to have blood on his face after a missile blew up a van next to him, you shouldn't be allowed to look sad when a missile hits your school.
Posted by: Andrew at May 18, 2007 07:07 PM (LuJwe)
15
Like we don't know it's "open war" already.
In fact I've completely worked out the "cycle of violence":
1. Palestinians attack Israeli civilians.
2. Israelis attack Palestinian terrorists and any civilians who get in the way.
3. Palestinians complain the Israelis aren't fighting fair.
4. Media sides with Palestinians.
5. Bloggers side with Israelis.
6. Cycle repeats from Step 1.
I side with the Israelis for a number of reasons, but mostly because they seem perfectly willing to stop the war any time the Palestinians decide to stop attacking them. Furthermore I don't at all care how much collateral damage the Israelis inflict in the meantime, as it's clearly the Palestinians throwing down, and if they can't take the heat they should darn well get out of the kitchen.
It's hard for me to take complaints about Israel seriously when they're embedded in the acceptance speech for a Darwin Award. If the Israelis are big ruthless meanies who don't fight fair maybe you should consider blowing up schools in more compassionate countries instead of complaining about how uncivil the Israelis get when you blow up one of theirs.
Posted by: Laika's Last Woof at May 19, 2007 04:04 AM (YyGeM)
16
"..any time the Palestinians decide to stop attacking them."
I am sorry, but Palestinians and Hamas are not the same thing. Just to keep that in mind.
Second, what does this have to do with Iraq? I really wish people would stop using Bush logic and connecting things that are completely unrelated.
As far as the media coverage, but as you all know, death sells, not damage. You all got what you wanted when the media became a corporation which stopped reporting the news and instead figured out ways to shock and entertain us. Oh, and by the way Jews seem to run everything media (and entertainment), you honestly think they are siding with Hamas over Israel?
Posted by: JW NC at May 21, 2007 04:46 PM (88FOa)
17
JW NC:
Iraq and Palestinian terror are related in at least three ways. First, Saddam was fostering terror by awarding money to the relatives of dead Palestinian terrorists. Second, the intervention in Iraq stopped Saddam from becoming a Nassar-like hero and regional strongman. Finally, our Iraq mission is the centerpiece of a broader effort to bring freedom and democracy to the Middle East -- including Palestine -- by promoting an alternative to the current despotic regimes.
Posted by: No Oil for Pacifists at May 21, 2007 05:07 PM (4ZQ8+)
18
My point about Iraq/Palestinian connection was in response to:
"By the way we need to stay in Iraq.
So you want Nashville to be like the Gaza strip?"
and
"By the way we need to stay in Iraq.
So you want Nashville to be like the Gaza strip?"
This article was not about the merits of taking out Saddam, nor our crusade in Iraq. It was about how the media is slanted which is completely unrelated to Iraq, Saddam, or anything else. Stop trying to always break everything down to an US vs THEM argument.
Posted by: JW NC at May 21, 2007 05:15 PM (88FOa)
19
"Stop trying to always break everything down to an US vs THEM argument."
Except when "THEM" is the Jooooos, then it's open season, right? Thanks for proving once again that antisemites are hypocritical nitwits.
Posted by: Gary Rosen at May 22, 2007 01:19 AM (hnl8M)
20
"I am sorry, but Palestinians and Hamas are not the same thing. Just to keep that in mind."
I'm not buying that line anymore. The plausible deniability afforded the Palestinians by Hamas becomes less and less plausible with every new terrorist attack.
If Hamas and the Palestinians aren't the same thing, when they danced in the streets on 9/11 they became close enough for all practical purposes.
Posted by: Laika's Last Woof at May 22, 2007 05:03 PM (YyGeM)
21
And the above statement is why we will never win the GWOT. Your own ignorance will be the downfall of this country, and you seem almost proud of it. You know Japan killed lots of people when they attacked Pearl Harbor, and killed even more when we were at war with them, do you think that every Japanese person you see is evil? What about Germans? Or do you realize there is a difference between those that attacked us and those that are just Japanese?
Posted by: JW NC at May 23, 2007 08:22 PM (88FOa)
22
Of course I harbor no ill feelings toward Germans or Japanese, because they changed long before I was even born. That change, as it happens, was effected by destruction so massive its reality exceeded the threshold of spiritual denial.
The Japanese could physically sustain the war down to the last 12-year-old child, but they could not sustain a belief in the divinity of their God-Emperor under a relentless rain of jellied gasoline.
Your comparison of the Palestinians to WWII-era Japanese could not be more apt. Now, as then, we face an enemy motivated by religious zealotry. Now, as then, we must break them of their barbarism in order for them to transcend it. To do anything less than what is necessary not only imperils us physically but in a sense stunts the growth of our enemies spiritually.
Posted by: Laika's Last Woof at May 24, 2007 01:54 AM (YyGeM)
Hide Comments
| Add Comment
Back to the Grassy Knoll
Take this for what it's worth:
In a collision of 21st-century science and decades-old conspiracy theories, a research team that includes a former top FBI scientist is challenging the bullet analysis used by the government to conclude that Lee Harvey Oswald alone shot the two bullets that struck and killed President John F. Kennedy in 1963.
The "evidence used to rule out a second assassin is fundamentally flawed," concludes a new article in the Annals of Applied Statistics written by former FBI lab metallurgist William A. Tobin and Texas A&M University researchers Cliff Spiegelman and William D. James.
The researchers' re-analysis involved new statistical calculations and a modern chemical analysis of bullets from the same batch Oswald is purported to have used. They reached no conclusion about whether more than one gunman was involved, but urged that authorities conduct a new and complete forensic re-analysis of the five bullet fragments left from the assassination in Dallas.
[snip]
Tobin, Spiegelman and James said they bought the same brand and lot of bullets used by Oswald and analyzed their lead using the new standards. The bullets from that batch are still on the market as collectors' items.
They found that the scientific and statistical assumptions Guinn used -- and the government accepted at the time -- to conclude that the fragments came from just two bullets fired from Oswald's gun were wrong.
"This finding means that the bullet fragments from the assassination that match could have come from three or more separate bullets," the researchers said. "If the assassination fragments are derived from three or more separate bullets, then a second assassin is likely," the researchers said. If the five fragments came from three or more bullets, that would mean a second gunman's bullet would have had to strike the president, the researchers explained.
If I'm reading this right, there is no new evidence of a second shooter, just a criticism of the bullet analysis used at the time.
How they can jump from questioning the methodology, to postulating that there may have been three or more bullets and a second gunman, should be a red flag. They have no data to support their third bullet/second gunman theories.
Retro-Trutherism. How chic.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
09:47 AM
| Comments (24)
| Add Comment
| Trackbacks (Suck)
1
The story is by ex-AP's John Solomon who is famous for jumping to conclusions.
Posted by: not the senator at May 17, 2007 10:04 AM (yfKhZ)
2
Maybe Teddy will start advancing the theory that there was a second driver that evening in Chappaquiddick. Oh wait, he'll never get asked about it.
Posted by: Buckley F. Williams at May 17, 2007 10:23 AM (/XWKc)
3
Oswald was a nutcase. It was his rifle found at the book depository, they did a roll-call of all employees after the shooting who had clocked-in that morning, and only Oswald was missing. I've never worked for a commercial ammunition maker, but I'm sure lot numbers on boxes in 1963 were hardly reliable. We didn't have bar codes then.
Posted by: Tom TB at May 17, 2007 10:56 AM (2nDll)
4
Back in college my Intro to Historical Methods class focused on the Kennedy assassination. I think that most of us finished the semester more confused about what had happened than we had been before we began, but there were two pieces of evidence that had me wondering: first, testing (during the House Select Committee examination, I think) showed that it was not possible to fire Oswald's rifle as quickly as it needed to be fired to replicate the shooting as shown in the Zapruder film; second, the unscathed bullet that purportedly fell out of Kennedy onto the stretcher at the hospital.
Neither, of course, is conclusive of anything, but they were the biggest pieces of the puzzle that I couldn't fit in anywhere.
Also: let's remember that there are, in fact, conspiracies in the world. This may not be one of them, but questioning The Received Wisdom doesn't of necessity make one a nut.
Posted by: Doc Washboard at May 17, 2007 01:46 PM (nrafD)
5
Discovery channel did a show where they duplicated everything Oswald did that many people claimed was impossible. They timed the shooting with someone actually walking those same steps. They timed his walk home. And they even duplicated his shot nearly exactly. The only difference is in their shot the bullet hit two ribs instead of one and didn't have enough energy to penetrate the leg. Otherwise the bullet took the exact same, extremely unlikely patch that it would have during the assassination. Of course, this doesn't rule out a conspiracy, and someone else could have been involved, but him being the lone gunman is entirely plausible.
Posted by: n2sooners at May 17, 2007 04:07 PM (6h6gx)
6
Get ready for Rosie to declare that human bone has never fragmented bullets.
Posted by: Jim Treacher at May 17, 2007 07:11 PM (0jtcT)
7
I've never understood why people have no problems accepting that Squeaky Fromme and Hinckley were nutcases, nothing more, while they construct elaborate conspiracy theories around Oswald.
He was just a nutcase who happened to not miss. Squeaky and Hinckley missed. Could have gone the other way for any of these situations.
Posted by: Moon6 at May 17, 2007 09:25 PM (7IyUR)
8
Check out the book "Mortal Error" by the gentleman that demonstrated that a shooter could get off 3 rounds accurately within the span of time that Oswald had.
Ironically the writer comes to the conclusion that the 3rd shot that blew off the back of President Kennedy's head most likely was accidental round from a member of the Secret Service detail who was standing in the moving limousine which followed the vehicle that carried the president.
The scenario: The driver of the president's vehicle speed up when he realized that they had come under fire and then the driver of the trailing limo accelerated to keep up. This caused the Secret Serviceman to fall back & squeeze off an accidental round motorcade. So there is possibl ity of a 2nd gunman without a conspiracy.
Posted by: moremeaning at May 17, 2007 11:39 PM (Vtop3)
9
This cockroach-like conspiracy theory has been allowed to fester for 40-odd years and we wonder why Rosie and friends can get a mind numbingly high percentage of the American people to believe their crap!
The beauty of conspiracy theories is that anything that tends to disprove the theory automatically becomes part of the conspiracy. It's the same childish magical thinking that pervades the Middle East with stories of x-ray glasses on our soldier and force fields on our tanks.
Americans like to think we are pretty sophisticated but too many are living in the intellectual equivalent of mud huts by the Euphrates.
Posted by: TBinSTL at May 19, 2007 02:48 AM (MSiPb)
10
Sorry, guys, but believing that the Warren Commission conclusion is wrong is not at all the same as trutherism -- far, from from it. I am a litigating lawyer with 30 years experience who, among other things, deals with evidence in my profession. After reading a lot about the JFK assassination and watching the Zapruder film, I concluded that it was not Lee Harvey Oswald shooting from the Texas Book Depository Building. The Warren Commission conclusion does not work -- too many impossibilities (e.g., the "magic bullet," the "neuromuscular reaction" supposedly causing JFK's head to snap back duplicating what would happen if he were shot from grassy knoll), too much in the way of contradictory evidence (eyewitness accounts of seeing what appeared to be a shots from the grassy knoll), statements by the attending Parkland medical people who based on the wounds, placed the shots as coming from the front, and autopsy evidence that appears contaminated. As for what did really happened on November 22, 1963, I think that it is not something that we will likely ever know. Based on everything, I think that there was some kind of conspiracy or perhaps a series of conspiracies. What it or they were, one can't tell.
Posted by: Phil Byler at May 19, 2007 06:58 PM (qthJd)
11
To moon6: it is not a matter of resisting the idea that Oswald might have been a nut case. It is a matter of the evidence of what happened on November 22, 1963 in Dallas that does not square with the Warren Commission conclusion about Oswald but that does square with Oswald being what he said he was -- a patsy. By the way, he was, according to the Marine records, a terrible shot.
To n2sooners: the Discovery Channel program was clever, but it did not establish much of anything. What counts are: that you had to be able to shoot 3 shots from the unsighted rifle that Oswald supposedly used, be in the first floor cafeteria 90 seconds later drinking a coke with no one having seen you traverse down from the sixth floor and later in the police station test nagative for rifle discharge residue; that the "magic bullet" take the trajectory it supposedly did causing as much damage as it supposedly did and come out pristine; that the JFK head snap backward, seen on the Zapruder film, could not have been caused by a neuromuscular reaction (too fast and too pronounced) and thus had to be caused by a shot from the front where 50 witnesses thought was where the shots came from; and that the Parkland medical statements about the wounds placed the sots coming from the front (grassy knoll was in the front and the Texas Book Depository Building was in the rear).
Posted by: Phil Byler at May 19, 2007 07:29 PM (qthJd)
Hide Comments
| Add Comment
When Does the Gaza Conflict Become a Civil War?
This sure sounds like one to me:
Gaza City was shuttered on Wednesday as gunmen took over rooftops and top-floor apartments. Most everyone else huddled fearfully indoors on the fourth day of factional Palestinian fighting that is drawing in the Israeli military.
At least 19 Palestinians were killed on Wednesday — more than 40 have been killed over the past four days — in fighting between Fatah and Hamas as their unity government fractures and rage rises on both sides.
"We want this to end, because what's happening endangers not just the unity government, but the Palestinian nation and cause," said Saeb Erekat, a Palestinian negotiator and an aide to President Mahmoud Abbas.
Hamas attacked symbols of Fatah power in Gaza, including the home of the chief security commander. He was not there, but six bodyguards were killed.
The Los Angeles
Times report is
equally dire:
Rival Palestinian factions Hamas and Fatah wage battles in the streets of the Gaza Strip. Three truces have come and gone. In four days, at least 40 people have been killed, including 14 on Wednesday, as an increasingly violent struggle threatens to bring down what had been touted as a Palestinian "unity" government.
When their new political power-sharing coalition was unveiled in March, amid smiles and congratulations, leaders of Fatah and Hamas pledged to put an end to their fighting. But the ferocious violence shredding the Gaza Strip this week has made a mockery of the agreement. Rank-and-file members of the two factions are once again battling for supremacy on the streets, as ordinary residents, worn down by years of economic and social chaos, remain trapped in their homes.
Are Palestinians in a civil war?
Wikipedia defines a "civil war" as:
A civil war is a war in which parties within the same culture, society or nationality fight against each other for the control of political power.
Some civil wars are categorized as revolutions when major societal restructuring is a possible outcome of the conflict. An insurgency, whether successful or not, is likely to be classified as a civil war by some historians if, and only if, organized armies fight conventional battles. Other historians state the criterion for a civil war is that there must be prolonged violence between organized factions or defined regions of a country (conventionally fought or not).
The definition provided by Wikipedia is interesting when applied to the quite different conflicts in Iraq and Gaza.
The conflict in Iraq is routinely referred to as a civil war by politicians and journalists, even though doing so relies on the debated insurgency definition above. Clearly, the Iraqi conflict, while certainly involving an insurgency and intertwined sectarian conflicts, have never seen the widespread use of organized armies fighting conventional battles. Most of the sectarian violence is typically composed of guerillas (Sunni or Shia) attacking primarily civilian targets with mortar fire, IEDs and bombs, along with kidnappings, murders, and ambushes.
Calling the Iraqi sectarian conflict a civil war thus relies upon a debated definition.
The conflict in Gaza, however, seems too far more closely fit the agreed upon definition of a civil war. Fatah and Hamas are well organized, typically wear something of a uniform (if not consistently), fight small scale but typically intense conventional battles, and clearly fight for political power as their primary goal, and usually against recognized targets such as enemy units, commanders, and positions.
Shouldn't the Palestinian "factional fighting" thus easily earn the definition of a "civil war?"
If politicians and the media can used a debated definition to declare that Iraq is in a civil war, then they should certainly consider the near letter-perfect and undisputed definition of a "civil war" to describe the battle between Hamas and Fatah in Gaza.
The Palestinians in Gaza seem to be clearly involved in a bloody civil war. I'm curious as to why politicians and the media won't provide the proper definition for this conflict that it so clearly deserves.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
08:45 AM
| Comments (19)
| Add Comment
| Trackbacks (Suck)
1
I would call it a Gang Turf War instead of a civil war. A civil war implies that there is some sort of civilized government involved.
Posted by: 1sttofight at May 17, 2007 09:03 AM (51r8a)
2
So, if I am understanding you correctly, Palestinians are violently occupying Palestinian land. Maybe the Palestinians should give that land back to the Palestinians for peace? After all, the Palestinians were there first
Posted by: mekan at May 17, 2007 12:20 PM (hm8tW)
3
Finally, the Israelis are getting some positive results from their initial strategy of providing support for Hamas to provide a counterbalance to the PLO. Sparking a civil war amongst your enemies is really a fine place to be strategically. Of course, the Israelis problem is, as always, that they cannot help but retaliate to provocation. All it does is remind the Palis who they are supposed to be fighting.
Never interrupt your enemy when they are busy tearing themselves apart from the inside.
Posted by: Shochu John at May 17, 2007 12:27 PM (dOcZ9)
4
Nope, thats a civil war alright. Both Fatah and Hamas have political arms that have representatives in whats left of the Palastinian government. So's the situation in Iraq. Happy? I'm not.
All three of the previous posters seem to think this is a good thing. Has it occured to any of you that these are real people who are dying or that it isn't just the young men fighting each other that are getting killed? When did you all decide to exclude Palistinians from the rest of the human race? Oh yeah, 1948 wasn't it? When your grandfathers decided to kill them or drive them out of their homes because "God gave us this land", but forgot to tell the people who were living there?
Posted by: iaintbacchus at May 17, 2007 05:49 PM (mYHGQ)
5
'"Gang Turf War"? Surely you jest. Ain't nobody here but us peace loving Pawestinians'
I excerpted and linked at Maybe if we'd just pull our troops out ... .
Posted by: Bill Faith at May 17, 2007 06:33 PM (n7SaI)
6
When did you all decide to exclude Palistinians from the rest of the human race?
When have Palistinians ever been human?
Posted by: 1sttofight at May 17, 2007 09:52 PM (51r8a)
Hide Comments
| Add Comment
May 16, 2007
American Legion to John Edwards: Don't Politicize Memorial Day
I think this one stands on its own.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
03:30 PM
| Comments (17)
| Add Comment
| Trackbacks (Suck)
1
I'm glad that was written. It needed to be said.
Posted by: brando at May 17, 2007 12:48 AM (rDQC9)
2
Yankee, even the AL commander said it wasn't about Edwards, it's about every politian from both parties. Isn't your header doing exactly what he was complaining about? Using memorial day to take a cheap shot at a political enemy?
Far be it from me to question the reverence of our political class for our war dead. But I'm going to be really suprised if every single presidential hopeful from both parties and our current commander in chief don't use the day to try for some political points.
Posted by: iaintbacchus at May 17, 2007 05:30 PM (mYHGQ)
3
This should have been your headline. It was good enough for the American Legion:
Message to America: Respect Memorial Day
Posted by: iaintbacchus at May 17, 2007 05:32 PM (mYHGQ)
4
It's good to point out Edwards' behavior as terrible. I went to that website and it's pretty disrespectful. This isn't a cheap shot at Edwards. Just rightfully frowning on his behavior.
Posted by: brando at May 17, 2007 10:37 PM (rDQC9)
5
No, the AL artical wasn't. I read it, too. But Yankee is using it as one, that's what I was pointing out.
I also notice that quite a few left leaning sites are wishing Edwards would shut up for that particular day as well.
Posted by: iaintbacchus at May 21, 2007 03:36 PM (mYHGQ)
6
Maybe you loyal Bushies can explain to me why: "Support the troops, End the War" is somehow disrespectful. How does wanting an end of this war, somehow make the war a "less-than-worthy cause"? As Bush said, there will be no victory ceremony. Actually in fact I do not recall any definition of what a victory is. Remember, it took the USA a number of years (10+) before we set up a government that is even close to what ours is today, and we had a civil war 100 years later that almost destroyed our country. Are you suggesting that we should stay in Iraq for a 100 years if that is how long it will take to set up a democracy and to do anything less would make the deaths up to this point meaningless?
Posted by: JW NC at May 21, 2007 05:30 PM (88FOa)
Hide Comments
| Add Comment
Getting the War Wrong... Again
A chronic problem of news agencies reporting from Iraq is their apparent inability to separate sectarian violence--violence committed by one sect on another, typically Sunni to Shia, or Shia to Sunni--with the terrorist attacks instigated by al Qaeda and aligned groups.
al Qaeda will attack against anyone and everyone else, including their Sunni co-religionists. It is this propensity towards terrorism for terrorism's sake that has spurred both the
Anbar and
Diyala Awakening movements.
AFP today provides a prime example of the media mislabeling an act of violence, turning a terrorist attack into a sectarian attack, even when their own report indicates
they got it wrong:
Insurgent bombers detonated a van bomb in a crowded Iraqi market, police said on Wednesday, as Shiite militiamen clashed with police and the US military hunted for three kidnapped comrades.
The latest apparently sectarian attack ripped through a Shiite enclave northeast of Baghdad late on Tuesday, killing at least 32 civilians and wounding 65 more, according to local security and municipal officials.
Iraqi officials said the bomb had been packed with tanks of chlorine gas, but the US military said a team sent to the scene could not confirm this.
Other news organizations are also reporting on this story, and all are mentioning the still unconfirmed reports that chlorine gas canisters were used in the attack.
Now, if true, who has a M.O. of using chlorine-laced conventional bombs against civilians?
Why,
I just don't know.
/sarcasm
If you click through the links, you'll notice that al Qaeda and it's umbrella group, the Islamic State of Iraq, have detonated these weapons against Sunni and Shia civilians, and
government forces alike.
While disputed, the claims of chlorine in the explosives would actually
point away from a sectarian attack, towards a terrorist attack by al Qaeda or its terrorist allies.
You would hope AFP and other news organizations would pick up on things like that, and yet here they go, arguing against their own reporting, getting it wrong... again.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
02:05 PM
| Comments (15)
| Add Comment
| Trackbacks (Suck)
1
Gee, Bob, if a guy didn't know better he could almost wonder if they're trying to give the wrong impression about what's going on. ... Nah, surely they wouldn't do that.
I added and excerpt and link to my 2007.05.16 Dem Perfidy // Islamism Delenda Est Roundup.
Posted by: Bill Faith at May 16, 2007 02:25 PM (n7SaI)
2
Let's be honest. You really don't know whether or not al Qaeda committed the attacks. No terrorist group has claimed responsibility for the attacks. No terrorists linked to al Qaeda have been captured in relation to the attack. All you have is unconfirmed, circumstantial evidence. Also, as you mentioned, the use of chlorine gas canisters hasn't been confirmed, meaning that your link to al Qaeda is in question.
Listen, I'm not disputing the fact that the AFP could be wrong here. They've been wrong many times before. But before you attack the organization, why not get some concrete facts and not just assumptions. If you truly believe in the high standards of journalistic integrity -- confirming sources, not reporting specious claims -- why not hold yourself to the same standards?
Posted by: dmarek at May 16, 2007 04:24 PM (4yYo8)
3
dmarek, you're utterly missing the point.
There was no claim, and no solid evidence of specific involvement by any group, so how can AFP flatly claim that this was a sectarian attack?
They can't, especially at the time they went to press, when there were numerous (though unconfirmed) accounts that the attack most closely resembled a pattern of chemical weapons attacked that were the work of al Qaeda's ISI.
I don't have to prove them guilty of fraud, just show that they were guilty of jumping to a conclusion that they can't support with the data they had at the time.
As the use of chlorine in the bomb (a known and well documented al Qaeda tactic) was still in question at the time, I think I did that.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at May 16, 2007 09:09 PM (HcgFD)
4
CY,
You state flatly in your thrid paragraph that this attack was a terrorist attack. That's a little misleading when, as you mentioned above, there's no solid evidence of specific involvement by any group in the attack. So how can you flatly claim that this was a terrorist attack?
Listen, I don't mean to be picky, but I believe we should hold bloggers up to the same standards we hold our journalists up to. This is especially important because, as your other sources indicate, this journalist could be wrong in this case. (I'd love to see all the sources this journalist used. You very well could be right.)
The real question here is how should journalists refer to attacks like this before it's known whether or not terrorists or insurgents comitted the attack. The Department of Defense does classify al Qaeda as a "radical Sunni Muslim umbrella organization," so there might be an argument for calling this kind of attack sectarian. But I'm not sure; I'd love to hear your thoughts.
Posted by: dmarek at May 17, 2007 05:26 PM (4yYo8)
Hide Comments
| Add Comment
The Storm Builds
Bomb bomb bomb, bomb bomb Iran.
That will be the take-away for most on this
Telegraph article published today, and while that is an extreme bastardization of what former ambassador to the United Nations John Bolten actually said--he actually advocated an escalating course of significant economic sanctions, regime change, and the use of force
only if nothing else works--the headline of "We must attack Iran before it gets the bomb" does accurately describe what appears at this point to be the probable end game.
Melanie Phillips does an admirable job of
almost describing the stakes:
The choice is not between a negotiated peace with Iran and a war with appalling risks. It is a choice between a war with appalling risks and an Iran that will hold the world to nuclear ransom, having destroyed Israel as a throat-clearing exercise. It is a choice between war with Iran, and war with a nuclear Iran; war on our terms, and war on Iran’s terms; war in which we take the initiative and thus have every prospect of winning, and war in which Iran holds the trump card, which means we have a near certainty of losing.
At the same time, as Bolton also emphasised, making such a grim choice must be a last resort. All-out war with Iran is a prospect fraught with appalling perils and uncertainties. Only a fool would embark upon such a war precipitately. But only a fool would rule it out as a possibly inevitable last resort. The problem is that the EU — and parts of the US government — are behaving as if such a last resort is totally unthinkable. This has powerfully undermined the diplomacy, since Iran clearly believes — and with good reason — that the west simply isn’t serious about enforcing its will and will never go to war against Iran in any circumstances.
I this Phillips is right on the generalities of her statement, but would disagree with her comment that, "Iran that will hold the world to nuclear ransom, having destroyed Israel as a throat-clearing exercise."
Israel has developed an air force over the past decade with the express purpose of targeting Iranian nuclear facilities, which explains their purchase of long-range
F-15I "Ra'am" and
F-16I "Sufa" strike fighters. Israel has purchased 25 of the F-15I "Ra'am" strike fighters and 102 F-16I "Sufa" strike fighters, the last of which will be delivered in 2008. These aircraft have the capability of hitting Iranian targets without in-flight refueling, and with in-flight refueling, could target any location in that country. Both aircraft are capable of carrying "bunkerbuster" bombs thought to have been purchased from the United States, and would almost certainly be designed to carry the 60-85 nuclear weapons (
according to the DIA) thought to be in Israeli inventories.
A
U.S. Army paper cites the data of a fired Israeli nuclear technician, Mordechai Vanunu, who went public with his information in 1985, which seems to indicate:
...a sophisticated nuclear program, over 200 bombs, with boosted devices, neutron bombs, F-16 deliverable warheads, and Jericho warheads.
The same paper also indicates that Israel's military may already have official government authorization for a retaliatory nuclear strike if Israel was struck first with nuclear weapons.
Iran may very well destroy Israel as a nation in a nuclear first strike, but Israel's nuclear arsenal would answer holocaust with a holocaust, and as
noted yesterday, the
Hojjatieh cult running Iran may very well be depending on an Israel response to force a messianic return.
Iran will either be stripped of its nuclear weapons program, or Iran (and other countries) will be stripped of life.
While the headline was perhaps a bit misleading, it was nonetheless true: if economic sanctions and regime change efforts fail, we must attack Iran
before it gets the bomb to avoid the deaths of tens of millions.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
11:48 AM
| Comments (26)
| Add Comment
| Trackbacks (Suck)
1
I have a few questions for anyone who has the info to answer them.
First, do we even have the resources available to fight another war at this time?
Second, would the war with Iran be yet another front on the GWOT, or would it be its own war? This doesn't seem to be a semantic difference; in the first instance, the administration could make the case that the use-of-force resolution from 2003 could be stretched to cover this as well, but if it's a new war, there would have to be a new resolution/declaration, right?
Finally, when (if ever) would a nation's possession of nuclear weapons fall into the "terrorist" category?
Posted by: Doc Washboard at May 16, 2007 01:25 PM (nrafD)
2
Just so you know the GWOT is actually the Global War on Extemist Islam. Iran would be included.
I dont know for a fact, but I do think we could fight a war with Iran. I dont think it would be a full on invasion, but more of a massive air campaign. Seeing as our air power isnt being used extensively in Iraq, I think we could pull it off.
Lastly if Iran, having major connections with Hezbollah, was in possesion of a nuclear bomb, that would absolutly fall into the "terrorist" category. I dont think we should be worried about it going off on American soil, but if I lived in Tel Aviv I would be extremely worried.
Posted by: Justin at May 16, 2007 02:37 PM (NiTuu)
3
To declare war, Im pretty sure we would need another declaration. Seeing as we have a far far left congress, I dont think that would happen. Thats the problem with the far-left. They wont declare war even in the face of a clear threat.
See, in 2003, the Democrats weren't far-left but more centrist-left. They read the intel, they made the only logical choice, as did our president.
Posted by: Justin at May 16, 2007 02:41 PM (NiTuu)
4
Justin,
Just so YOU know. The resolution authorizing the use of force doesn't include the term Global War on Extremist Islam. the term hadn't been invented yet because we were still all believeing the lie that Iraq had something to do with Al Qaidas attack on the World Trade Center. Iran isn't included and it was a real stretch to include Iraq. Constitutionally it's been longer than two years so Congress would have to reauthorize it anyway.
A "massive air strike" does not a war make. It isn't a substitute for ground troops. This was proven in Viet Nam and later in Bosnia/Kosovo. Even the first Gulf War required a ground component and that after 6 months of continual bombing. If we can't mount a ground war, and right now we can't even continue the one we're in unless Bush gets the balls to institute a draft, then we shouldn't go.
The "they'll give the terrorists the bomb" theory was a lie when it was Saddam who was supposedly developing one and it's a lie now. Both the US and USSR have had much smaller and more powerful weapons for decades. Both have supported organizations that used terrorist tactics and neither have ever given anyone "the bomb".
Iran is a signatory of the non-proliferation treaty. Thay have the right under that treaty to refine uranium for civilian power production. There is proof that they are enriching it for other reasons and to a far higher level than they are yet capable of there isn't any reason to invade.
Then there is the issue of who might get "the bomb". Palastine is holy ground to Hezbollah. They're not fighting because they're "evil" or because they like "killing Jews", they want their country back. Setting off nukes in a country they expect to occupy some day is contraproductive.
Finally, if you really expect Muslims to set off nuclear weapons in a very small country that contains some of Islams most sacred sites you'd better ask yourself what has been done to them to make them so angry and desperate.
Posted by: iaintbacchus at May 16, 2007 03:17 PM (mYHGQ)
5
Justin,
Maybe you should define what you mean by left and right. and where the "center" is. Almost a quarter of the Dems in the Senate and about a fifth of the house are "blue dogs" who vote consistantly with the Republicans. I think that your definition of "centerist" is being in agreement with you. That isn't where the center is unless you're pre-Galleleo world view puts you at the center of the universe.
And the only "intel" that congress got in 2002/3 was hand picked by Richard Perle and Paul Wolfowitz. And all of it turned out to be, to put it kindly, inaccurate.
Posted by: iaintbacchus at May 16, 2007 03:26 PM (mYHGQ)
6
Folks, I'm going to ask you to please re-read the comments policy, and stop with the profanity and personal insults.
I can delete 'em a lot fast than you can write 'em, and I can ban your IP even faster than that.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at May 17, 2007 12:38 PM (9y6qg)
7
Well then Mr. Fair-Play,
Since Oldcrow started it on this thread, delete his offending post. Or is it only liberal profanity and insults that get cut?
R. Mutt
Posted by: R.Mutt at May 17, 2007 12:52 PM (WijbP)
8
Mutt, I tend to delete comments fairly evenly (a certain conservative regular would lead my deleted comments by far, if I kept score), but don't claim to be able to catch them 100% of the time.
You'll note that Crow's comment is now gone. I missed the insult the first time around because his comment was long, and I only quickly skimmed through it.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at May 17, 2007 01:14 PM (9y6qg)
9
Whether it's a good idea or a bad idea from an ideological point of view, the bombing of Iran appears to be a nonoption for the foreseeable future if only because so many people in the military oppose it. If Bush ordered a new war, I think there would be mass resignations of general officers. Again, you may think that the military would be wrong to prevent a new war; but assuming war is out, isn't it time to think about other approaches to Iran that don't involve feckless saber-rattling?
By the way, an Israeli attack on Iran at this time would probably have the effect of putting us at war with Iran in short order. One can only hope that Bush doesn't encourage Israeli air strikes as a way of getting us into another war without securing the consent of Congress or the willing participation of the professional mililtary. That could happen. Legality and plain dealing are hardly the hallmarks of this administration.
Posted by: Jim Harrison at May 17, 2007 02:56 PM (021Bh)
10
"were still all believeing the lie that Iraq had something to do with Al Qaidas attack on the World Trade Center"
Who thought that? I didnt. Bush never said Iraq had anything to with 9/11. Im not sure what lie you're talking about exactly.
"A "massive air strike" does not a war make. It isn't a substitute for ground troops. This was proven in Viet Nam and later in Bosnia/Kosovo."
No, it doesnt. However, that might be all we need to stop Iran's enrichment program. And, I thought we used ground troops in Nam. Maybe I'm wrong.
"Iran is a signatory of the non-proliferation treaty. Thay have the right under that treaty to refine uranium for civilian power production. "
Let me get this straight, you think its a good idea to trust Iran to not make bombs? Wow.
"Maybe you should define what you mean by left and right. and where the "center" is. Almost a quarter of the Dems in the Senate and about a fifth of the house are "blue dogs" who vote consistantly with the Republicans"
That one is my mistake. I meant the Democrat leadership. However, the Blue Dogs do follow their leadership, or they will be go the way of Leiberman.
"And the only "intel" that congress got in 2002/3 was hand picked by Richard Perle and Paul Wolfowitz. And all of it turned out to be, to put it kindly, inaccurate."
Really. And the Dems only have access to supposed hand picked intel? If thats the case, then they are pretty negligent in authorizing a war without doing some reasearch. Oh maybe its because the leading Dems were screaming since 1998 we had to take out Saddamn for his WMD's and for not listening to the world community. Do I have to post the quotes from Mr. Clinton?
Posted by: Justin at May 17, 2007 03:27 PM (NiTuu)
11
Only three-year olds think they've got a right to kick you in the shins and then to be surprised when the victim kicks back. Sheesh! Of course bombing Iran is an act of war, and I guarantee that the consequences of such a strike will not be pleasant. We can attack Iran with planes and missiles but they can't retaliate in kind, which just means we'll be dealing with terrorism, economic warfare, and probably a protracted land war in Iraq.
What's missing here is any sense that other people have rights and that it's not a small thing to order air strikes or murder anybody we chose. That's a crazy attitude; and, granted that we don't have a monopoly on the power, increasingly a stupid one. It's also not to bright to bring on a two- or three-front war when you don't have to.
Posted by: Jim Harrison at May 17, 2007 04:51 PM (+7yVx)
12
Justin,
Bush said in his 2003 SOTU address that Iraqi intellegence officers has had meetings with high level Al Qaida operatives. What other point was he trying to make since the entire speech was a pitch for his dishonest war? I could if I wanted to take the time find mant other examples of Bush, Cheney, Rice and even Powell trying to make the case that Iraq was somehow responsible for 9/11. So could you. you're just being dishonest.
As for an air strike. Do you really think it would be a good idea to use a large number of bombs to stop Iran's enrichment program? The effect would be to spread enriched uranium, most of which is in gaseous form over most of central Asia.
Let me get this straight, You have some concrete reason to believe that Iran has managed to enrich uranium to a 80% u236 content? Gee, maybe you should be working for the CIA. As signatories to that treaty ourselves, by constitutiional law, we can invade them for simply having an enrichment program. Not that legality has stopped this president from doing anything for the last 6 years, but it would be nice to get back to the rule of law in the US.
I'm well aware that Clintons position was for regieme change in Iraq. He upheald and increased the sanctions against Iraq and enforced the no fly zones in northern and Southern Iraq for 8 years. But I don't recall him using a terrorist attack by people from another country as an excuse to invade. Clinton understood the concepts of Soveriegn Statehood and international law. As for congress doing some research, every single organization tasked with gathering foriegn intellegence falls under the executive branch. And all of that intellegence, before it was given to congress was filtered through the Office of Special Plans in the Pentagon. Which gets us back to Pearl and Wolfowitz. Bush was even providing intellegence breifings for the Republican members of the intellegence commitee only. Weren't you reading the new in 2002 and 2003?
And for that matter, if what Clinton said or did was of so much importance, why did both State and Justice ignore the outgoing administrations warning that Osamma Bin Laden and Al Qaida were the biggest current theat to national security. 9/11 could have been avoided if Justice and John Ashcroft haddn't been more interested in busting whorehouses than catching international terrorists. Give up on the "Clinton did it, too" defense. It's wearing thin and it isn't true anyway.
Posted by: iaintbacchus at May 17, 2007 05:04 PM (mYHGQ)
13
Iaintbacchus, this just flat out a lie: "And all of that intelligence, before it was given to congress was filtered through the Office of Special Plans in the Pentagon." It took an act of Congress to get these folks to even share info. Remember?
Posted by: CoRev at May 17, 2007 08:46 PM (0U8Ob)
Hide Comments
| Add Comment
An Accidental Interview
I had an interesting twenty-minute face-to-face conversation with a Spec Ops soldier named "K.C." last night.
K.C. first jumped into Iraq on March 26, 2003 with the
173rd Airborne Brigade, in the largest combat air drop since WWII. He most recently served in a six-man
Long Range Surveillance (LRS) unit. The LRS are direct descendents of the famed
LRRP "A-teams" of the Vietnam War era.
He was careful not to mention assignments or duty locations, but based upon some of the things he stated in our conversation, I gather that he has served extensively in Iraq, and perhaps in Afghanistan as well. He is presently on leave.
During the course of our conversation, K.C. told me the same things I've heard time and again from soldiers at nearby Fort Bragg, airmen from Pope AFB, and the occasion Marines from Camp Lejune and MCAS Cherry Point.
Stop me if you've heard these before.
"The war you see in the media is not the war we are fighting."
If he has his way, K.C. would boot all media out of Iraq. Like others soldiers and Marines before him, he noted to problem of news organizations basing many of their stories based upon anecdotal conversations from locals with their own agendas, while ignoring the testimony of U.S. soldiers, or sometimes cherry-picking comments and dowdifying them to the point that they no longer reflected what the soldier actually said, reflected the battles they've fought, or the experiences they've had. Reporters have alsoeither ignored the physical evidence supporting soldiers contentions, or have been too ignorant or biased to assimilate the information.
K.C.'s observation reminds me of a conversation I had with a soldier who fought in Ramadi some months ago, who spoke of an attack in his area that left civilians dead. The media blamed the deaths on a firefight involving U.S. forces, even though it was 7.62x39mm shell casings (the cartridge used almost universally by Arab militaries, militias, and insurgent groups) and expended RPG fragments found at the scene of the attack, and no signs of American involvement were present.
K.C. related one particular story that obviously still bothered him, that of a school hit by insurgents during the early days of the war. The insurgents killed a number of children, and the media accounts he later saw attributed it to a U.S. airstrike.
I guess that even though the AP has stopped using his name since he was exposed as a fraud, Jamil Not-Hussein still really gets around.
I told him about milblogs, maintained by the active duty soldiers and veterans, and how I thought that if the military was smart, they'd make an effort to channel more information through them to bypass the media that he and other soldiers distrust so much, enabling soldiers to directly tell their stories and experiences to the world. He liked the concept quite a bit, even though he stated he couldn't write about what he personally did.
I hope any military brass that happen to be reading this
listens.
"G--D--- Democrats"
Like every single soldier, airman and Marine I've talked to, K.C. is disgusted with Democrat politicians. He pulls no punches: he considers them supporters of terrorism. Period.
This is a sentiment I've also heard before, and interestingly enough, it seems, at least among those I've talked with, that the infantry soldiers and Marines who have spent the most time on the ground feel this the strongest.
Of course, this could have several reasons. The frontline soldiers have more personally invested blood, sweat and tears in the war, have lost friends, and have killed men in Iraq. They also interact with the Iraqi people, and would presumably know them and the culture better than support troops or the airmen I've spoken with. Some seemed to like the Iraqi people, some did not, but to a man, they all wanted to continue the mission and were visibly, coldly (and sometimes not so coldly) angry with Democratic attempts to lose the war.
I shook hands with K.C., wished him well, and told him to keep his head down as he prepares for his next deployment in Our Children's Children's War.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
08:46 AM
| Comments (26)
| Add Comment
| Trackbacks (Suck)
1
Good luck and Godspeed to that brave soldier.
Posted by: Dan Irving at May 16, 2007 10:02 AM (zw8QA)
2
Trackbacked by The Thunder Run - Web Reconnaissance for 05/16/2007
A short recon of what’s out there that might draw your attention.
Posted by: David M at May 16, 2007 10:27 AM (6+obf)
3
"[T]hey all wanted to continue the mission and were visibly, coldly (and sometimes not so coldly) angry with Democratic attempts to lose the war."
How impressed are they with Republican attempts to win the war? Both look equally halfhearted.
Posted by: Shochu John at May 16, 2007 10:42 AM (m4aO9)
4
At least the Republicans are attempting to win. Alot better than attempting to lose.
Posted by: Justin at May 16, 2007 11:39 AM (NiTuu)
5
Really, Justin? Here's how I see it. There are only two responsible things to do in a war: win it or get the hell out. Winning it is better than getting out and both are better than jabbering on about winning while having no actual strategy to do so.
Is there a plan to avoid a bloody Iraqi civil war? If so, what is it, if not, what do we accomplish by delaying it?
Posted by: Shochu John at May 16, 2007 12:30 PM (m4aO9)
6
Getting the hell out is a "responsable" part of war? Wow.
Posted by: Justin at May 16, 2007 02:30 PM (NiTuu)
7
A few minor points... The March 03 drop was the largest combat airdrop since Panama in '89. Although the same USAF page also describes it as the largest _formation_ airdop since D-Day, confusingly. Also, LRRPs had nothing to do with "A" teams. LRRPs were recon, trained by SF, but largely manned by Rangers, until being handed completely over to the Rangers in '69. "A" teams are multi-purpose units mainly for deep infiltration and sabotage, either on their own or by making contact with friendly nationals in-country.
Also,
The media blamed the deaths on a firefight involving U.S. forces, even though it was 7.62x39mm shell casings (the cartridge used almost universally by Arab militaries, militias, and insurgent groups) and expended RPG fragments found at the scene of the attack, and no signs of American involvement were present.
BS. Anyone who's even been in that part of the world knows how incredibly common AKs are, and I happen to know that no small number of US personnel have access to and even carry AKs themselves. Saying it was 7.62 casings proves nothing either way.
And as for yor "actual strategy"? Allow me to quote for you paragraph 6 of Joint Pub 5-0, "Joint Operation Planning":
---
U) Paragraph: 6 The Scope of Joint Operation Planning
a. Joint operation planning encompasses the full range of activities required to conduct joint operations. These activities include the mobilization, deployment, employment, sustainment, redeployment, and demobilization of forces.
(1) Mobilization. Mobilization is the process by which the Armed Forces or part of them are brought to a state of readiness for war or other national emergency. Mobilization may include activating all or part of the Reserve_ Component. Mobilization is primarily the responsibility of the Military Departments and Services in close cooperation with the supported commanders and their Service component commanders.
Joint Publication (JP) 4-05, Joint Mobilization Planning, discusses joint mobilization planning in greater detail.
(2) Deployment. Deployment encompasses the movement of forces and their sustainment resources from their original locations to a specific destination to conduct joint operations. It specifically includes movement of forces and their requisite sustaining resources within the United States, within theaters, and between theaters. Deployment is primarily the responsibility of the supported commanders and their Service component commanders, in close cooperation with the supporting combatant commanders (CCDRs) and US Transportation Command (USTRANSCOM).
Joint Publication (JP) 3-35, Joint Deployment and Redeployment Operations, discusses joint deployment planning in greater detail.
(3) Employment. Employment encompasses the use of military forces and capabilities within an operational area (OA). Employment planning provides the foundation for, determines the scope of, and is limited by mobilization, deployment, and sustainment planning. Employment is primarily the responsibility of the supported combatant commanders (CCDRs) and their subordinate and supporting commanders.
Joint Publication (JP) 3-0, Joint Operations, this publication, and numerous other publications in the joint doctrine system discuss joint employment planning in greater detail.
(4) Sustainment. Sustainment is the provision of logistics and personnel services required to maintain and prolong operations until successful mission accomplishment. The focus of sustainment in joint operations is to provide the joint force commander (JFC) with the means to enable freedom of action and endurance and extend operational reach. Effective sustainment determines the depth to which the joint force can conduct decisive operations; allowing the JFC to seize, retain and exploit the initiative. Sustainment is primarily the responsibility of the supported combatant commander (CCDR)s and their Service component commanders in close cooperation with the Services, combat support agencies, and supporting commands.
Joint Publication (JP) 4-0, Joint Logistic Support, JP 1-0, Personnel Support to Joint Operations, and other joint logistic doctrine publications discuss joint sustainment planning in greater detail.
(5) Redeployment. Redeployment encompasses the movement of units, individuals, or supplies deployed in one area to another area, or to another location within the area for the purpose of further employment. Redeployment also includes the return of forces and resources to their original location and status. Redeployment is primarily the responsibility of supported commanders and their Service component commanders, in close cooperation with the supporting combatant commanders (CCDRs) and United States Transportation Command (USTRANSCOM).
Joint Publication (JP) 3-35, Joint Deployment and Redeployment Operations, discusses joint redeployment planning in greater detail.
(6) Demobilization. Demobilization is the process of transitioning a conflict or wartime military establishment and defense-based civilian economy to a peacetime configuration while maintaining national security and economic vitality. It includes the return of Reserve_ Component units, individuals, and materiel stocks to their former status. Demobilization is primarily the responsibility of the Military Departments and Services, in close cooperation with the supported commanders and their Service component commanders.
Joint Publication (JP) 4-05, Joint Mobilization Planning, discusses demobilization planning in greater detail.
---
I could sift through Google, but I have seen numerous qutes and stories where senior members of the military, including then-Vice Chairman Pace, flatly state that they did not perform steps 5 and 6 at all for OIF. And it's pretty obvious that step 4 wasn't fully worked out either. What it boils down to is that regardless of what is said or written, Bush is only capable of thinking in terms of 'hit it with a bigger hammer', which only guarrantees that more people like KC will come back in body bags, and that "victory", regardless of how you define it, in not going to happen.
Posted by: legion at May 16, 2007 03:42 PM (3eWKF)
8
Um, Yankee, that's an army field manual. A doncument describing a doctrine. Not a strategy. Not even a tactic. Did you actually read it?
And in the preface it makes two very important points: An organization that is geared toward winning large scale conventional warfare is exactly the wrong one for fighting an insurgency. And a unit must begin preparing to fight a specific insurgency operation months or years in advance.
This would have been a great document to have had around the whitehouse in, oh, say 2001. Pity it wan't even written until last year.
It's to late now. We do not have the man power for the operation and even if we got a draft today it'd be 2 years before we could field the additional 350-500K ground troops Patreaus needs to do the job. According to chapter 4 you need a 40 to one ratio of combat troops to civilians on the ground to have an optimal chance of success and they all need to be "culturally aware". There's 25 million Iraqi civilians. That means you need 625K ground troops who have been trained to understand the culture and at least one per platoon who speaks the local language. We just don't have that and we're not going to get it.
Right now the nasteist thing we could do to Al Qaida in Iraq is to get out and leave that Sunni terrorist cult to the mercy of the Shiite majority.
Posted by: iaintbacchus at May 16, 2007 03:54 PM (mYHGQ)
9
"You now have "the plan" if you actually are willing to read it."
That's not a plan, that's a counterinsurgency manual. Don't get me wrong, I'm glad we have a counterinsurgency manual, it's just not a plan. As our Iraqi allies have proven themselves decidedly unhelpful for four years running, we're going to have to do this ourselves. To do counterisnurgency properly, we need 400-500K more troops minimal. If you doubt this, perhaps you should read you manual again and consider the manpower it will take to secure the entire country simultaenously, instead of our crruent strategy which involves clearing the same area over and over again because we simply don't have the people to hold it. As we are never going to send enough troops, our sole other alternative is to apply blunt force and rule by fear. It worked for Saddam, but we're not that kind of country, are we?
As I have said before, a part of me almost hopes that the Democrats show their classic spinelessness and fail to get the troops out of Iraq, that Bush and his people get their way from start to finish. That way, there is nobody else to blame when this inadequate "surge" fails. However, what kind of person would I be if I were to advocate the continuation of a war that I knew was pointless just to be proven right? Alas, I fear the only moral thing to do is advocate for withdrawal.
Posted by: Shochu John at May 16, 2007 06:01 PM (m4aO9)
10
Both look equally halfhearted.
Yea, but on the spectrum between surrender and victory, the democrats generally stake out the ground on the surrender side and the republicans the generally stake out the ground on the victory side.
Posted by: Purple Avenger at May 16, 2007 08:13 PM (5AiPK)
11
Having served with 173rd in Vietnam under both Johnson and Nixon, I can tell it does not matter who talks the toughest. There ain't no big shot Republicans son serving in combat. Opening a second front in Iraq was one of the greatest military blunders in history. Blaming the Media and people who are against the war is just a smokescreen for cowards who wouldn't serve if Bin laden was making a landing on the Maine coast. The 173rd is on it's way back to Afghanistan for it's second tour in June,to fight a reborn Taliban that was never destroyed in 2001.Had we done the job then instead of rushing off to Iraq many lives could have been spared. And make no mistake about it the thinking men and women in Iraq know this thing is over , the countdown has begun their just hoping to avoid being the last one clipped. To you fools that have been hoodwinked by Bush and Cheney's tough talk as they get ready to walk off to the the rich man's sunset .shame shame shame. It is not the Media who has the blood on their hands.
Posted by: bob at May 17, 2007 04:17 AM (PCkOR)
Hide Comments
| Add Comment
May 15, 2007
Little Love For the Departed: A Roundup of Liberal Reaction to Jerry Falwell's Passing
I'm not a fan of Jerry Falwell, who died today shortly after being found unconscious in his office at Liberty University at the age of 73. That said, I am quite disgusted with the pathological hatred displayed by liberal bloggers in their reactions to his death.
Wonkette:
Jerry Falwell collapsed in his office this morning, and he’s in the hospital, and he’s “gravely unresponsive.”
At a time like this, people deserve sympathy and good wishes ... except for Falwell, who is an evil sonofabitch.
John Edward's former campaign blogger Amanda Marcotte at
Pandagon:
The gates of hell swing open and Satan welcomes his beloved son
No word yet on whether or not that position is shared by John and Elizabeth Edwards campaign, or how Edward's staff will spin this into a fundraising opportunity.
Tapped goes for a "twofer" slam:
I'm waiting for Pat Robertson to find a way to blame his rival's death on either feminists or witchcraft.
Daily Kos:
The hagiography to cover up a history of hate and bigotry has officially begun.
A litany of hate at the
Democratic Underground.
The "Blog of the Moderate Left" is
surprisingly immoderate:
I wish I believed in Hell, so I could imagine Falwell enduring the eternal torment he wished on so many.
Technorati is tracking
far more venom than I even want to contemplate, and as always,
Allahpundit and
Newsbuckit have running updates to capture the full flavor of the Democratic hatefest.
Perhaps I'm just blind by my own biases, but I don't recall similar widespread, triumphant glee and gloating from conservatives the last time a prominent liberal activist or politician died.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
02:27 PM
| Comments (68)
| Add Comment
| Trackbacks (Suck)
1
Molly Ivans ring a bell?
Posted by: Angryflower at May 15, 2007 02:48 PM (Bss6w)
2
And then other Conservatives came and smacked those haters around, like when Elizabeth Edwards was found to have cancer. We police our own wacko's. Can you say the same, Tom? Cause it says something about the left side of the Internet that when something like this happens, the second thing to go through many Conservatives minds (after offering prayers and condolences to the family and friends) is to head to our favorite lefty spot and watch the hate.
I had the same thought on fundraising, Bob. My bet is on 2 days.
Posted by: William Teach at May 15, 2007 03:04 PM (mwxsm)
3
Rachel Corrie?
What exactly did she think was going to happen when she stood infront of a bulldozer (that was plowing under tunnels used for weapons smuggling)?
Posted by: headhunt23 at May 15, 2007 03:10 PM (OMCBg)
4
angry, do you have specific examples of such hate from prominent conservative bloggers?
The sad fact of the matter is that liberals have far more compassion (or at least spouted far less venom) over the deaths of Yassir Arafat and Saddam Hussein than they did Falwell.
Of course, you didn't really see them as your enemy as you did Falwell, so perhaps that has something to do with it.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at May 15, 2007 03:10 PM (9y6qg)
5
President Bush's Statement on the Passing of Molly Ivins
Molly Ivins was a Texas original. She was loved by her readers and by her many friends, particularly in Central Texas. I respected her convictions, her passionate belief in the power of words, and her ability to turn a phrase. She fought her illness with that same passion. Her quick wit and commitment to her beliefs will be missed. Laura and I send our condolences to Molly Ivins' family and friends.
Yeah, Angryflower, that's pretty hateful stuff.
Posted by: Magoo at May 15, 2007 03:12 PM (k9rhx)
6
Molly Ivans ring a bell?
Molly I-v-i-n-s, and yeah, it does.
Posted by: Ric James at May 15, 2007 03:19 PM (AS/pd)
7
RE headhunt23's Rachel Corrie comment:
He was responding to a post by an angry liberal named "Tom" who violated site posting guidelines in his post, while attempting to provide some moral equivilence with the death of terrorist sympathizer Rachel Corrie.
The fact of the matter is that Rachel Corrie belonged to group called the International Solidarity Movement (ISM), a front group for Palestinian terrorists. Corrie was killed attempting to protect weapons smuggling tunnels. You can see some of her fellow ISMers posing with weapons and a member of the Al Aksa Martyrs Brigade here.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at May 15, 2007 03:25 PM (9y6qg)
8
Molly Ivans ring a bell?
Not anymore.
Posted by: Purple Avenger at May 15, 2007 03:31 PM (5AiPK)
9
I don't speak for other leftists. I can't defend how others might feel about Falwell's passing. But I can speak for myself.
This man declared war on me because I am an agnostic, a liberal, a First Amendment absolutist, a believer in equal protection under the law and a believer in a Constitutional right to privacy. That I'm also a veteran, a good father and a loyal husband meant nothing to Falwell.
This is what he said about 9/11:
"I really believe that the pagans, and the abortionists, and the feminists, and the gays and the lesbians who are actively trying to make that an alternative lifestyle, the ACLU, People For the American Way, all of them who have tried to secularize America. I point the finger in their face and say 'you helped this happen.'"
This is what he said about the ACLU, the people who defended Oliver North and Rush Limbaugh:
“The ACLU is to Christians what the American Nazi party is to Jews.”
This is what he said about those of us who do not believe as he believed:
“If you're not a born-again Christian, you're a failure as a human being.”
I don't rejoice in this man's death and I find it sad that we're so polarized that others would find it a cause for celebration, but that polarization is partly the fruit of Falwell's life.
If I were more religously inclined I might say that that it's Falwell's karma coming back on him.
Posted by: David Terrenoire at May 15, 2007 04:09 PM (kxecL)
10
polarization is partly the fruit of Falwell's life.
Indeed. This is, after all, the man that blamed Americans for 9/11 and relished the thought of gay men dying of AIDS.
You want to talk pathological, let's start with Falwell.
Posted by: jpe at May 15, 2007 04:23 PM (+rmhC)
11
I detest everything Jimmy Carter did as President and since.
He is a disgrace to this country, and about the only good he has done is Habitat For Humanity.
It would be very easy to go on and on, yet, suffice to say, when he passes, I will mourn a fellow human being, since it is not him I hate, but his policies. It seems that the Left cannot separate the policies from the person, due to their decades long campaign known as the "politics of personal destruction."
Posted by: William Teach at May 15, 2007 04:38 PM (IRsCk)
12
Jerry Falwell was a polarizing force. I shall not miss him, nor shall I eulogize him. I think the best thing a liberal can do is remain silent. Let him sink into the shadow of history and be forgotten.
Posted by: stewart sternberg at May 15, 2007 04:46 PM (hQRSr)
13
Non-hypothetical question, Stewart: how much will the liberals freak out if the Conservatives accord the same treatement to Carter or Clinton?
Posted by: William Teach at May 15, 2007 04:53 PM (cuTsc)
14
Stewart is right. When you really think about it, Falwell was basically an extremist preacher. Why so many news organizations went to him as their go-to man on right-wing politics is not something I've figured out. From the CNN website it appears his death is getting almost attention as Gerald Ford's got.
Posted by: Teghmuson at May 15, 2007 05:07 PM (llWeA)
15
I think that from the liberal perspective, Falwell's post-9/11 comments sort of draw this sort of fire. He was also known to have said that God sent hurricanes to punish gays in Florida and partiers in New Orleans (though he stopped that line of argument when God sent one to Virginia Beach). No word on why God wanted to punish all the other people in Florida, Louisiana, Mississippi and Texas who had their homes and businesses destroyed.
It is, of course, still bad form to speak ill of the dead, whatever one might have thought of them while alive. What goes around, after all, comes around.
At the fringes, stupid people say stupid things, and being right is no excuse for being rude. As I used to tell my ex when she angrily called me names: "Just because it's true doesn't mean you have to say it."
But I'm not so sure it is easy to see that conservatives police their own wackos. I don't have time to look for specific examples right now, but from the liberal perspective calling us "unhinged" and "godless" and "traitor" is deeply insulting, if not hateful. I have seen some of this on this very blog, in fact, directed at me. Just look at the blog post titles on this page right now: "liberal hysteria," "surrendercrats," "nutroots." Is this the sort of rhetoric conservatives blame on liberals?
Really, all you have to do is listen to Rush Limbaugh for an hour, and you will hear him insult democratic politicians and activists over and over (and it's getting worse lately--his little musical satire pieces must be pretty funny to some, but they are deeply insulting and hateful if you think about it from the perspective of the targets. If I were John Edwards, I would go to his studio and teach him a lesson. He is really, in the end, only a bully). Better yet, browse around Newsmax of Town Hall for a while. It turns the corner from insult and satire to hate pretty quickly there.
Sticks and stones, and all that. But liberals have no monopoly on this sort of stuff, and it is not clear if anyone is policing it. Someone is buying Ann Coulter's books--but Ward Churchill hasn't sold a book lately.
Posted by: R. Stanton Scott at May 15, 2007 05:19 PM (ysvN+)
16
The liberals’ hate-filled comments on many, many blogs are disgusting and have really angered me. This proves beyond the shadow of a doubt that the “tolerance” liberals claim to have a monopoly on is a clearcut sham and their “love” is a perversion and delusion they have. They only love and have tolerance for themselves and their own kind. They practice an evil form of prejudice wrapped in the skin of hypocrisy. And for that they condemn themselves and their kind. I pity them.
Posted by: Carl at May 15, 2007 05:28 PM (lBPHu)
17
Carl,
I wonder who it is you're talking about. I'm a liberal and I know many. To a person they are good, kind, and generous people who have families and love this country. I also know many conservatives and I'd say they're the same.
So who is it you're talking about? It's easy to attack "them" and say "they" are like this or that. It's far different when you realize you're talking about your neighbors, people you would call on in an emergency, or people you would, I hope, reach out to help if they needed it.
The liberals, just in my immediate circle of people I'm honored to call friends and family, are soldiers, intelligence officers, retired military, police, a minister, and a retired foreign service officer that George HW Bush and Colin Powell called a hero of the first Gulf War.
They are all what you would call a liberal. Are these the people you're talking about? Because if they are, I have to say you honestly don't know them.
Like I said, it's easy to talk aboput "them."
You want to get angry at people who post ugly things, go ahead, but I just went on Free Republic and found a few posters there who wished Molly Ivins off by calling her a bitch. The majority of commenters were respectful, and I admired that, but I'm not about to rail against conservatives for the cruel comments of a few.
I suggest you stop labeling people and start getting out more. You need to widen your circle of friends.
Posted by: David Terrenoire at May 15, 2007 05:45 PM (tk0b2)
18
Carl, saying that intolerance of intolerance is somehow anathema to tolerance quite simply does not make much sense. Falwell said a lot of hateful things in his life. I wonder if he got a chance to debate St. Peter at the pearly gates as to whether God really is pro-segregation.
Also, CY, I do not know if this is the sort of character you want to be claiming for conservatism.
Posted by: Shochu John at May 15, 2007 05:48 PM (m4aO9)
Posted by: Teghmuson at May 15, 2007 05:48 PM (llWeA)
20
"Of course, you didn't really see them as your enemy as you did Falwell, so perhaps that has something to do with it."
What on earth did I say for you to make that judgment about me in particular?
Absolutely nothing.
Take your generalizations and shove them up your ass.
Carl, everything you've written there can be applied to the "other side". What a waste of space.
That's the whole point. Nobody gives a rats ass about Jerry Falwell. This is just more gas on the partisan fire, and the *very first thing* the blogs on the right did was look up the left blogs. Which I guarantee you the reverse would be true if a prominent lefty died.
It's silly nobody can see past this, and in the meantime nothing meaningful is accomplished and everyone just hates each other a little more.
Asinine.
Posted by: Angryflower at May 15, 2007 05:51 PM (Bss6w)
21
"...due to their decades long campaign known as the 'politics of personal destruction.'"
Mr. Teach, you have got to be kidding me. Liberals are rank amateurs at the politics of personal destruction when compared to the Sagrettis, Atwaters and Roves of the GOP.
Who was it who made the Purple Heart a joke by putting it on a band-aid? You may not like John Kerry's politics, but by God, the man put himself in harm's way for this country and all the GOP could do was ask if he'd bled enough? As a veteran, I was disgusted.
And Max Cleland? Putting his picture up next to Bin Laden's after he left three limbs in Vietnam?
What about Paul O'Neil, a good Republican, or Richard Clarke, General Zinni, General Shinseki, General Batiste, the list goes on and on, all good solid Americans who served honorably, only to have their character questioned because they had the audacity to criticize George Bush.
And let's look at what the Bush campaign did to one of their own, John McCain, in the 2000 primaries. They implied that he'd fathered a black baby and that he was crazy from his time as a POW. This was a fellow Republican who happened to run against Bush.
And whether you like her or not, because her husband wrote a piece in the NY Times critical of the president, these people outted a CIA agent. I don't want to hear any hair-splitting about whether she was covert or not. The fact is, she worked for the CIA on nuclear non-proliferation, and her outting endangered the lives of countless people. I know people who work at Langley, on the right and the left, and they don't take kindly to this type of reckless behavior.
Politics of personal destruction? Rich Bond, when he was head of the GOP, said that people like me weren't real Americans, just as Jerry Falwell blamed people like me for 9/11.
The landscape is littered with the people who have been attacked and vilified by Republican operatives. We liberals are playing sandlot ball in this game.
Physician, heal thyself.
Posted by: David Terrenoire at May 15, 2007 06:06 PM (tk0b2)
22
David, all you managed to do was throw it at the wall, yet, you have neither defended Democrats and their person smear campaigns, nor distanced yourself from the hate filled venom at liberal sites.
Posted by: William Teach at May 15, 2007 06:09 PM (doAuV)
23
Mr. Teach,
I gave you specific examples of the politics of personal destruction. You have only made bland accusations. I can't defend accusations without specifics and if you read my post further up, you'll see that I have no truck with venom from either side.
You'll find I can be quite even-handed in my wrath, but you have to give me the chance.
I can't respond to blather.
Posted by: David Terrenoire at May 15, 2007 06:13 PM (tk0b2)
24
Mr. Terrenoire: Man, I wish I had said that. Very well said, every word.
Posted by: R. Stanton Scott at May 15, 2007 06:49 PM (weq9K)
25
Thank you, Mr. Scott.
All I'm trying to do is get people to think before they call their neighbor a villain, and to get beyond these labels of left and right, liberal and conservative.
You want to talk policy, I'm your man, but pirate wannabes like Mr. Teach thrive on unchallenged generalities.
Arr, me thinks he may be fightin' shadows to the larboard whilst his men and fine-bosomed wenches be sneaking his gold away by the lee.
That's all the pirate talk this ground-pounder can muster. Maybe Mr. Teach can give us a lesson or two in the nautical palaver.
Arr.
Posted by: David Terrenoire at May 15, 2007 07:08 PM (tk0b2)
26
He made fun of my purple color and purse so God smoted his funky butt! About time Lord!
Bottom Line- Falwell was Christian Taliban. For all of those he turned on... there were many others he helped tune out.
Posted by: Tinkie Winkie Tele-Tubie at May 15, 2007 07:16 PM (l8Hl5)
27
Can ANYONE be AT ALL surprised by the sheer amount of leftist hatred and venom-spewing on these blogs today?
Sadly, it has become routine and expected on these blogs. This easily rivals anything I've ever seen put forth by the most prominent hate groups in this country.
And to the guy comparing the celebration and mocking of a fellow American's death to the highly-laughable so-called "outing" of Valerie Plame.....LOL!!! --You can't be serious. (The sad thing is- you most likely are).
Posted by: Charley Stanton at May 15, 2007 07:20 PM (Yuatd)
28
Charley,
I'm that guy. And the comment was made in response to the politics of personal destruction, not specifically to Falwell's death or the blog response to it.
However, if you want to talk about Plame's outting, I'm you huckleberrey.
If you think so little of the people who work at Langley that you think this incident was "laughable", then I'd love to introduce you to some people who would disagree.
There's a code in the intel community, and whether what Armitage did was legal or not, it was wrong. You don't talk about these things, even if everyone in town knows the score.
I went into the mountains of Bolivia to retrieve secret crypto gear even though that same gear had already been captured by the Koreans on the Pueblo. Why did we go? Because, eventhough the communists had the gear, it was still classified and therefore, we had to get it before the rebels did.
There is a code, Charley. Revealing Plame's name violated that code. It was wrong and it hurt our antiiterror efforts and it put an unknown number of people in danger.
You might find that "laughable" but I can assure you, there are a lot of people who do not.
Posted by: David Terrenoire at May 15, 2007 07:48 PM (tk0b2)
29
Sorry. I should have said, we, as in the United States, went into the mountains of Bolivia. I don't know anyone who was actually on that op.
Posted by: David Terrenoire at May 15, 2007 07:55 PM (tk0b2)
30
David Terrenoire wrote in his laundry list of conservative "personal destruction," the following:
"And Max Cleland? Putting his picture next to Bin Laden's after he left three limbs in Vietnam?"
I am happy you mentioned this, because I want to confront you and everyone who repeats this DAMNED LIE.
Here is the link to the Saxby Chambliss ad you are lying about.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tKFYpd0q9nE
Watch it.
Now, the next time you say Max Cleland's picture was "put next to Bin Laden's," you will know you are a damned liar. And so will everybody else.
Posted by: L.N. Smithee at May 15, 2007 07:57 PM (YUaw+)
31
Oh my, not exactly next to Cleland's, but within seconds of it.
Yeah, that's a real catch you made there, L.N.
I guess you got me.
When you want to talk about the substance of that smear, let me know, but if all you want to do is talk about edits, I have better things to do.
Posted by: David Terrenoire at May 15, 2007 08:02 PM (tk0b2)
32
L.N.
Let's take a look at that ad you're defending. The ad shows pictures of Bin Laden and other bad guys, then shows Cleland's picture abnd says Cleland voted against the Homeland Security bill 11 time. What it doesn't tell you is that Cleland voted against the bill because Bush wanted to strip away civil service protections for employees. And, of course, it doesn't tell us that Cleland supported the creation of a Department of Homeland Security when Bush was against it.
Cleland originally co-sponsored the bill and eventually supported it, but as the bill moved through Congress, he cast a number of votes against it in hopes of getting a better bill. And one of the GOP's ads had Cleland's face morph into Saddam Hussein's while suggesting that Cleland didn't care about the security of the American people. Both Hagel and McCain came out against the ad.
Remember, this was a guy who won a Silver Star while his opponent, Saxby Chamblis, got a deferment for a bad knee.
That's the substance of this ad you're defending L.N. But if you think my mistake about an edit is more important than the substance, then you keep hanging onto that.
But to me, if that's all you've got, I think it's pathetic.
Posted by: David Terrenoire at May 15, 2007 08:31 PM (tk0b2)
33
Well, you've revealed yourself to be quite the weasel, haven't you, David? You have better things to do than correct your dirty partisan smears?
I put the truth in your face, and you still can't see the light. At NO moment in that 30 second spot do Cleland's photo and Bin Laden's appear at the same time, as has been suggested ad nauseum by Teresa Heinz Kerry (who said it was the moment she decided to switch parties) and other Demo party hacks for the last four years. Now you're suggesting it doesn't make a difference whether it was Cleland's photo NEXT TO bin Laden's, or if it shown within seconds of his. Have you considered that the difference was significant enough that the Kerrys, Terry McAuliffe, and other Donkey Partiers couldn't tell the truth about the spot? Do you honestly think that when trying to rally the uninformed about reasons to distrust the Republicans, "next to" and "within seconds of" have the same impact?
This is reminiscent of the New York Times putting on its front page an allegation that the RNC was trying to slip a subliminal message in a 2000 ad by having the word "RATS" flash on the screen faster than the eye could see. What did the complainers think "RATS" was about, anyway? "Oh no, the Democrats are rats! I must exterminate them with my vote!"
And then there's the recent ridiculous accusations of stoking Southern white racism by having a blonde white bimbo winking at Harold Ford, Jr., like they would have been just fine with the lighthearted attack ad if the bimbo had been black. Your ilk work overtime to find an angle that makes conservative campaigning evil by nature of being conservative. The sad thing is, that nonsense works on the ill-informed. Witness Al Sharpton's minions, blind to their leader's record of bigotry and bloodguilt.
It's amazing to read and listen to characters like you, who think that you're more intelligent than the general populace who would be fooled by Rovian mind tricks. I personally don't think Rove is a evil genius because I don't think he's a genius at all. But since so many people are willing to believe he is, maybe I'm wrong.
You had better check your other items on that list, Dave. You haven't done your homework. You're just a DNC parrot. Look down at your paper beneath your perch. If it's not the NY Times, you might learn something.
Posted by: L.N. Smithee at May 15, 2007 08:39 PM (GkA2p)
34
but from the liberal perspective calling us "unhinged" and "godless" and "traitor" is deeply insulting
There's a lot of people who call themselves liberals who do unhinged, godless, and traitorous things. Like the mountains of hostility coming out today, the glee they take in killing babies, negotiating with the leaders of enemy nations behind the back of the U.S. government...
What's insulting is complaining about people who call this behavior out instead of complaining about the behavior.
Posted by: Heather at May 15, 2007 08:55 PM (0YjHD)
35
David,
Now that the almighty mountain climber has degenerated this conversation into a Plame "outing"....
I wonder if there's a code in the intel community that you don't send an agent's husband- who lacks ANY intelligence background- on a sensitive mission, without a confidentiality agreement, at the suggestion of someone walking by the office.
If the CIA had really wanted her identity to be kept secret, it would simply not allow her husband to write an op-ed filled with proven lies in the NY Times.
Laughable?? yes. LOL!!
Posted by: Charley Stanton at May 15, 2007 08:58 PM (Yuatd)
36
L.N.
Let's see, you've called me a liar, a damned liar, a weasel, and a DNC parrot.
I, on the other hand, have limited by responses to your argument about the edit. I still contend that, while correct, you're missing the larger picture.
But considering this was a thread about the politics of personal attacks, I think you've proven my point.
Thank you.
Posted by: David Terrenoire at May 15, 2007 09:00 PM (tk0b2)
37
Charley,
You honestly don't know what you're talking about. I suggest you do a simple Google search on Wilson's background as it applies to Niger.
Really, it's not that hard.
Then look up why George HW Bush called the man a hero.
Thanks. This has been fun.
Posted by: David Terrenoire at May 15, 2007 09:06 PM (tk0b2)
38
LN: David Terrenoire is indeed more intelligent than the general populace. And you cannot deny that the man can write circles around anyone else here. So what? Doesn't make me feel small.
Pick the nits if you will, but the truth is that the ads you mention are masterpieces of marketing that deliver an insulting message to a target demographic very effectively, even as they permit people like you to stand on the thin reed of technical fact to argue that they are simply innocent advertisements developed by innocent consultants who would never attack anyone's character.
And it is telling that in a discussion thread about liberal hatred you cannot respond to Mr. Terrenoire's comments without calling him names and implying that there is something wrong with being intelligent. You sound like a petulant child whose best friend just pointed out that his new invention doesn't work: "You're not so smart! Weasel!"
Saying so may earn me a rebuke from CY for incivility. Would not be the first time. But some of you folks can't even complain about liberal hatred without displaying--conservative hatred! Those of you who fit these shoes--and you sadly may not even know who you are--should shut up about the kettle until you've scrubbed the bottom of the pot.
Mr. Terrenoire: Please pardon the atrociously mixed metaphor.
Posted by: R. Stanton Scott at May 15, 2007 09:14 PM (L4RFT)
39
The Right corrals and controls it's own wackos and kooks. The Left not only embraces theirs, but celebrates their bitterness and hatred. A stark contrast and one we have been covering as well on Conclub. Marcotte and her hounds at Pandagon went out of their way to embarrass themselves today. It was a sight to see and experience. What planet do those people live on anyway?
Posted by: The Infidel Sage at May 16, 2007 12:39 AM (FJDm3)
40
David Terrenoire wrote:
But if you think my mistake about an edit is more important than the substance, then you keep hanging onto that.
But to me, if that's all you've got, I think it's pathetic.
About your "substance"...funny, it's almost verbatim what is published in the leftist millionaire-funded SourceWatch wikipage on Max Cleland under the category "Political Slanderings." A good deal of the post I originally responded to has that familiar SourceWatch ring about it, too.
Don't act like this is a small matter about the proper positioning of the picture of Osama; the long and the short of this DNC/Kerry talking point was the notion that Saxby Chambliss associated Cleland with Bin Laden, somehow implying this would have the impact of making Georgians with feeble synapses believe the two were in cahoots.
But this time, you parrot SourceWatch's insistence that an anti-Cleland attack ad morphed his face into Saddam Hussein's rather than simply placing it next to Osama Bin Laden's. Funny how a Google search shows many believe that it was Osama's face that was morphed from Cleland's. While I presented to you and everyone reading the actual Chambliss commercial putting the lie to the "next to Bin Laden" schtuff, try as I might (and as you did not), I couldn't find a single link to video of that vicious smear that SourceWatch describes.
I don't think such a commercial ever existed. You are welcome to try and find it. In fact, I dare you, confident that if it was for real, Teresa's billions would have been able to track it down in 2004, when they really needed it. I'll consider your version of Cleland's voting record right after you show me that ad.
While you are on your search, you may want to stop by and get National Review columnist Rich Lowry's take on the Cleland Controversy. His account has in its favor an accurate description of the Chambliss ad.
Now, to R. Stanton Scott, who wrote:
You sound like a petulant child whose best friend just pointed out that his new invention doesn't work: "You're not so smart! Weasel!"...some of you folks can't even complain about liberal hatred without displaying--conservative hatred!
I don't hate Mr. Terrenoire or even you, Mr. Scott. I vehemently disagree with you both. Mr. Terrenoire hit one of my hot buttons: The big fat "Republicans questioned Max Cleland's patriotism" lie. I wrote that I don't believe Karl Rove is a genius, and part of the reason I don't is because the idiot just let lies like that propagate in the media without smacking them down with great prejudice...as I just did.
I don't hate anybody on the other end of the political spectrum for what they think. As distasteful as I find Elizabeth Edwards, I would never wish for cancer to take her life, as many leftists did Tony Snow and Laura Ingraham (to her credit, Mrs. Edwards called out Democratic Underground posters who were cheering breast cancer to victory over Ingraham). I didn't like Molly Ivins, but took no joy in her demise. She never did anything to me but make me angry a few times, as did many other liberal pundits. Why should I be happy she's dead? It's not HER EXISTENCE I oppose, it's her beliefs.
I feel sorry for people who can't get along with people who aren't just like them. I am a social conservative living in San Francisco. If there's hating going on, it's toward me, not from me. My experience is that I think some people are wrong. The "wrong" people think I'm evil personified.
When it comes to discussing issues such as the future of this nation, I make no promises to be delicate. But being less than civil or even rude when discussing political or social issues is not hatred. If you can't see the difference between calling someone a weasel when they are being a weasel and rejoicing at the death of someone with whom you disagree, you can't be helped.
Posted by: L.N. Smithee at May 16, 2007 02:18 AM (9ACRz)
41
For the record, David's smears about how Bush/Rove/etc. smeared McCain during the 2000 elections are also completely bogus.
http://www.nationalreview.com/lowry/lowry200408271409.asp
Personally, I think people making up completely fictitious "smears" and attributing them to others is a pretty serious smear in and of itself. David isn't giving examples of conservative hate of liberals, he's just engaging in more liberal hate of conservatives, backed up by pure lies.
http://www.nationalreview.com/lowry/lowry200408271409.asp
As you'll note in the article, McCain based his "those push-poll phone calls smeared me" based on the testimony of a single 14 year old boy.
Qwinn
Posted by: Qwinn at May 16, 2007 05:38 AM (/FDfc)
42
LN: It is easy enough to claim that you do not hate those who disagree with you politically. I can no more read your mind than you can read those of the folks at Pandagon. But your less than delicate rhetoric sure looks like hatred to me. If it walks like a duck...
You either want to debate the issues of the day with those who disagree with you or you don't. A common tactic for those who do not have the facts on their side is a resort to ad hominem attacks--when the facts fail, just call the guy a weasel. Especially if you have the facts on your side, name-calling only makes you look...hateful.
Another common debating tactic is to stand on very technically factual arguments that while correct in a narrow sense ignore larger moral and ethical truths. So don't act like the intent of the Saxby Chambliss ads were not to impugn the patriotism of Max Cleland. However technically correct you may be about the morphing of images or who was shown next to whom, the meaning was clear--along with text critical of Cleland for not supporting a Homeland Security Department (itself very misleading--he called for such a department before Bush did, and voted against the Bush version over labor issues) the ad shows images of Bin Laden and Hussein. This sort of association needn't be direct to be effective, and you know it.
If you honestly believe that this advertisement was not intended to convince Georgians that Max Cleland was less patriotic than Saxby Chambliss, you cannot be helped.
Posted by: R. Stanton Scott at May 16, 2007 06:10 AM (iwsXD)
43
OK, it's the cold light of morning and where are we?
According to Qwinn and Mr. Smithee, I'm engaging in liberal hatred of conservatives. I guess you're both entitled to that opinion.
And Mr. Smithee, I did indeed take much of the Cleland post from SourceWatch. I should have attributed, but it was late and this is a blog, not a dissertation, but I will be more careful in the future.
You think I'm engaging in hatred and lies. I think, based on what I believe, that I'm holding people to proper behavior.
For instance, I believe, and the CIA agrees with me, that at best Armitage and others leaked classified information for political cover. I've read a lot, watched the testimony and talked with people in the agency and that's my conclusion based on the best information I can gather. You and Charley disagree. I don't see how you can condone such an assault on our intelligence community, but you seem to be comfortable with your position.
I'll read the National Review article sometime today, because what I think I know about the South Carolina primaries could be urban myth. But I don't hold the NR in high regard lately. I read it when the old man was in charge but since his daughter's taken over I find the magazine has a sense of smug entitlement best personified in Jonah Goldberg. But I will read it.
The Cleland example. If I storyboarded that spot, the pictures would indeed be next to each other, but you're right, I didn't remember the spot exactly as it aired. Human memory is funny that way. But even though you were technically right, Mr. Smithee, it still leaves us with a spot whose intention was not to inform, but to mislead. You may find that acceptable in today's hardball politics. I do not. And I tend to give decorated veterans a break, but apparently that's just me.
As I said, I come from this not as a Democrat, which is why I found your charge of being a DNC parrot laughable, but as a man who been places and done things and has formed a pretty hard code of ethical behavior. For instance, no matter how much I thought you were wrong, or misguided, or blinded by partisan ideology, I would never call you a damned liar or a weasel. I don't know you and I wouldn't presume to judge your basic honesty.
You, however, are quite comfortable with that. If that's your style, well, good luck. It's not the way I would go, but that's OK too.
In the end I go back to where I was when I started commenting on this thread yesterday. We as Americans are so divided that we're quick to attack our neighbors, friends and families and attribute the worst motives to their behavior, just because their politics are not ours. Part of this divisiveness comes from the efforts of men like Jerry Falwell, so when less thoughtful people rejoice in his passing, although I find that sad, I also find it unsurprising.
Now, I've wasted far too much time and energy here. I wish you all good luck and good health.
And don't believe everything you read.
Posted by: David Terrenoire at May 16, 2007 07:47 AM (kxecL)
44
A few thoughts spring to mind:
1. Falwell was hateful, so it's not surprising that some people hate him.
2. He's dead and gone now, so the venting of someone's hatred is not going to affect him one way or the other.
3. In order to find these examples of liberal "venom," you mainly have to go to the liberal web sites looking for them. If it bothers you so much, don't go.
Posted by: Doc Washboard at May 16, 2007 08:31 AM (eBicg)
45
There are loony toons on all sides. But the "they" and "them" are the tinfoil hatted leftist loons for whom the truth is nonexistent. Yes, there are many good "classical" liberals, but they don't hold the power of the pulpit (pardon my pun) like the HuffPo, DailyKos, MyDD, DU etc. commentators, nay, even the actual posters. Please, someone lead me to a site similar and I'll eat my words (neo-nazi sites are offlimit...they're real loons).
Posted by: Sue at May 16, 2007 10:14 AM (Q5uzC)
46
Well...Doc - thanks for bringing us back to Falwell.
Let me start by stating that I am a Christian, but I did not support the ideas of Falwell, which I consider to be "extreme Christianity" (as jihadists are examples of "extreme Islam"). Not all Christians believe as he did. He has passed, he will be eulogized, end of story.
On to the rest of this. I tend to hang out and post at sites like this simply because the moderators try to control the rhetoric being used. They try to promote tolerance of opposing viewpoints, and that is good. They also have rules about posts that are just plain hatred.
We all have seen those types of posts on the left and right sides of the spectrum. However, I would contend that KOS, HuffPo, FDL, TruthOut, and Larry Johnson's place (name escapes me now), and DU - being the biggest political sites out there - do not control the content of their more radical posters. Hence we tend to see more of those types of posts at those sites. Please understand that I have seen "hate" posts at conservative sites too - but they tend to be somewhat small sites with few readers so you just don't see as much.
Even though I frequently disagree with Lex, David T., R. Stanton, for the most part the discussions here are actual debates rather than just diatribes. It is a lot more fun and enlightening to participate in a site where that occurs than it is to go to a "hate-filled" site.
Posted by: Specter at May 16, 2007 10:21 AM (ybfXM)
47
I wasn't a fan of Falwell, but I didn't hate him, though he might have had some bitter words about me, had he known me. I'm not a fan of the leaders of Al Qaeda, either, and I may hate them. I may even be glad they are dead. But I will not declare that they are damned, nor hope they are; I will pray that they may somehow be reconciled with God, since eternity is more than just a very long time.
And in this I think you'll find some of the difference between the far left and the right and center. If what lies outside this life is nothing, then no viturperation may be spared for the dead (as opposed to their deeds). But if we and our deeds have value beyond the limits of this life, then damning the dead (as opposed to their deeds) is at least impious and perhaps an offense as great as all that person's wanton errors put together.
If you want the more civilized behavior, consider this: the ancient Greeks stopped battles to recover their dead, and not until the 19th century did the West think this unusual.
Posted by: NJCm at May 16, 2007 01:49 PM (Fr48S)
48
Falwell spoke ill of people who died of AIDS. I have no sympathy for this man.
Posted by: dmarek at May 16, 2007 05:02 PM (4yYo8)
49
Like I said dmarek - the man was an extremist.
Posted by: Specter at May 16, 2007 05:33 PM (ybfXM)
50
Larry Flint showed a lot more class regarding Falwell's demise than many of left.
I believe there's a deep lesson there.
Posted by: Purple Avenger at May 16, 2007 08:16 PM (5AiPK)
51
"He's dead and gone now, so the venting of someone's hatred is not going to affect him one way or the other."
Well, that's sort of the point.
You aren't harming the man you hate, you're harming his grieving friends and relatives. Some of them may have hated some of the things he did, but will still be hurt by your words. Those who agreed with him may be too emotionally vulnerable to respond appropriately.
So the haters are
1) making cowardly attacks on a dead man
2) harming innocents
3) kicking enemies while they're down
4) spouting "fighting words" when their targets are especially vulnerable to being provoked.
This is unethical (points 1, 2, 3) and dangerous to society (points 2 and 4).
And when you say "he spoke hate about people like me, so I will do the same about him" -- you are validating his actions. When you say "some right-wingers speak hate, so we will too" -- you are validating their actions.
Maybe people can post their favorite examples of right-wingers and left-wingers holding their own sides to account, or showing dignity and respect to a fallen political foe. I found the link from Ric James to Hoodathunk to be an inspiring read.
You-all on the left -- hold up some heroes for us to look at! Show us your better side.
Posted by: Sam at May 17, 2007 06:03 AM (6GFTi)
52
What can you say, Sam, take it as a lesson. If you want people to mourn your passing, try to be a good person. If you think this is bad, did you catch when Leopoldo Galtieri died a few years back? Check it out:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/not_in_website/syndication/monitoring/media_reports/2652937.stm
If you're an ass in life, people are going to dance on your grave. It's just the way things are.
Posted by: Shochu John at May 17, 2007 09:56 AM (We5wf)
Hide Comments
| Add Comment
Liberal Anti-Gun Hysteria on Parade
In New Jersey:
New Jersey moved yesterday toward becoming the second state to outlaw the powerful .50-caliber rifle that critics contend could potentially be used in terrorist attacks.
The guns, which resemble large hunting rifles, are accurate up to 11/2 miles, and opponents contend that they could be used to penetrate an airliner or ignite chemical plants, rail tank cars and refineries.
California is the only state with a similar law.
Legislation that would make New Jersey follow suit was released yesterday by an Assembly committee and can now be considered by the full Assembly.
The proposed ban is getting renewed attention after federal investigators announced this week that they had foiled an alleged terrorist plot by six men who were planning to attack Fort Dix.
"As unnerving as the Fort Dix terrorism plot was, it could have been all the more worse if the weapons of choice for alleged assailants had been .50-caliber assault guns instead of AK-47s," said Assemblyman Reed Gusciora (D., Mercer).
This is a man holding a .50-caliber rifle (
source).
You'll note that the rifle in question is a
Steyr HS50, a 28.5-pound, single-shot rifle that weighs roughly 30 pounds with a scope and one cartridge in the chamber. Because of its weight, I assure you he did not hold this pose for very long.
This is what that rifle looks like with a scope.
Let's fisk this anti-gun tirade on a paragraph-by-paragraph basis.
New Jersey moved yesterday toward becoming the second state to outlaw the powerful .50-caliber rifle that critics contend could potentially be used in terrorist attacks.
Lets go past things that "could potentially be used in terrorist attacks," and actually look at thinks that
have been used in terrorist attacks:
There has
never been any sort of documented crime committed in the United States with a .50 BMG rifle.
The guns, which resemble large hunting rifles, are accurate up to 11/2 miles, and opponents contend that they could be used to penetrate an airliner or ignite chemical plants, rail tank cars and refineries.
Actually, they
are large hunting rifles, as this
Field and Stream article attests. Mechanically, they are no different than any other rifles, other than scaling to match size of the cartridge they use.
Yes, opponents do
contend that .50 BMG rifles could be used to penetrate an airliner, but the simple fact of the matter is that virtually
any bullet, from the lowly .22 long rifle to all handgun and rifle cartridges will penetrate the very thin aluminum skill of an airliner.
As for the size of the hole such a bullet would cause, here is a high-tech rendering of the size of the hole a .50-caliber rifle would make (left) versus the extremely common .30-caliber rifle (right).
You'll note that if you hold your thumb up next to the .50 "hole" that it is roughly the size of your thumbnail. By comparison, most broadhead arrows have a cutting diameter of
more than one inch.
.50 BMG bullets carry far more energy than most rifle bullets, but commercially available bullets are not explosive, and military API (armor-piercing incendiary) cartridges do not function well in these precision rifles. Combine those facts that with the near impossibility of being able to hit a distant moving aircraft with a single bullet from a 30-pound single shot rifle, and the case made by hysterical and ignorant gun control advocates is laughable.
Chemical plants and rail cars?
Not a chance:
When asked about the alleged threat of .50cal rifles to his railcars, Mr. Darymple said that they have long tested their cars against almost every form of firearm, to include .50BMG and larger. When asked what happens when a .50 hits one of his tanks he said with a shrug "It bounces off." He went on to point out that railcars are designed to survive the force of derailing, and collision with other railcars at travel speeds. By comparison the impact of a bullet, any bullet, is like a mosquito bite.
Refineries? Perhaps
possible, but nearly any other form of weapon would be far more concealable, far cheaper, and far more effective.
California is the only state with a similar law.
Legislation that would make New Jersey follow suit was released yesterday by an Assembly committee and can now be considered by the full Assembly.
And how well is that law working?
To date, both the
.416 Barrett and
.510 DTC Europ have been developed to
completely invalidate the ban California passed and New Jersey is trying to implement. There is an upside: these cartridges are said by some to be even more accurate than the .50 BMG they replace.
The proposed ban is getting renewed attention after federal investigators announced this week that they had foiled an alleged terrorist plot by six men who were planning to attack Fort Dix.
Irrelevant, anyone?
New Jersey is also overrun by
the mentally ill. Quick, ban moose hunting!
And the closing quote from the article, provided by one of New Jersey's mentally ill:
"As unnerving as the Fort Dix terrorism plot was, it could have been all the more worse if the weapons of choice for alleged assailants had been .50-caliber assault guns instead of AK-47s," said Assemblyman Reed Gusciora (D., Mercer).
Mr. Gusciora, most .50 rifles sold in the United States are single-shot rifles, and because of their excessive weight, are almost always fired prone. Perhaps a New Jersey Democrat would rather our soldiers be attacked with a lightweight, far more concealable fully-automatic weapon capable of firing hundreds of rounds per minute as the terrorists intended, but I promise, that
to a man, any knowledgeable soldier would rather be attacked with a ponderous .50-caliber single-shot rifle than an AK-47.
Thus ends today's lesson.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
01:46 PM
| Comments (24)
| Add Comment
| Trackbacks (Suck)
1
When I was a kid one of my friends and I would take a .22 and a .3006 into a local firing range. Every once and a while a gent would come in with a reproduction of a German hunting rifle from 1750 or so. (I think 56 Caliber). We would punch holes in stuff and break bottles and the like. He would just destroy stuff. If I were a terrorist, for my close range choice it would be that.
Posted by: David at May 15, 2007 03:31 PM (K8BtQ)
2
One minor quibble... The 50 cal in question is a hunting rifle, and the modified military version, a snipers weapon. When faced with an opponent trained to use, and using as designed, either, I'm not sure soldiers would choose an unseen assailant 1000 yards away over the one within 100 yards.
Posted by: bains at May 15, 2007 05:23 PM (g7Imo)
3
Sadly, not one gun-ban freak will be swayed by your analysis.
Like others of their ilk, they dream up danger where none exists, and ignore danger where it does exist.
Posted by: DoorHold at May 15, 2007 05:54 PM (hN1D3)
4
Saying that a weapon is accurate up to a mile and a half sort've implies that anyone can pick it up and hit someone in the gizzard from that kind've distance.
Give joe-blow a .22 rifle and tell em to hit the black from 30 yards. Now have them pick up a 30lb rifle and tell 'em to hit an airliner.
Either way, a rifle, pistol, bombvest, or boxcutter is only part of the equation for a terrorist attack, namely:
Means
Motive
Opportunity
Take away anyone 1 of those 3, and the plot is foiled. The weapon [means] isn't the most dangerous part of the equation, because our daily lives are cluttered with things we can use to kill other people with. Identifying people with motive and preventing opportunities ought to be focused on.
Posted by: paully at May 15, 2007 06:01 PM (0osFo)
5
People can't get it through their heads that irresponsible gun owners and low income minorities (even whites) are the ones who run around and shoot people.
If we got rid of the people illegally selling guns to the dangerous people, we'd be MUCH better off.
Posted by: the_velociraptor at May 16, 2007 08:14 AM (DqYja)
6
I don't know how anybody could be for gun control.
I'm as "liberal" as they come (caring for others, against the corporatization of America, etc), and I'm against gun control.
When you outlaw guns, only the authorities (who have proven time and again they can't be trusted) will have them.
Posted by: Robert at May 16, 2007 01:47 PM (VTtVl)
7
Black gun? Bad, bad, bad.
Posted by: Purple Avenger at May 16, 2007 08:18 PM (5AiPK)
Hide Comments
| Add Comment
Remembering a Fallen Soldier
I sincerely hope that I'm readying Steve Clemons wrong (my bold):
But this young man did serve his nation -- but his death is so incredibly tragic, like the others -- but his even more because his well-respected father has been working hard to end this horrible, self-damaging crusade. It's incredibly sad.
Is Clemon's really saying that
this son's loss is more tragic than others, because the father shares Clemon's anti-war beliefs?
Jules Crittenden, who knew Professor Bacevich, offers a much more fitting
tribute.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
11:57 AM
| Comments (24)
| Add Comment
| Trackbacks (Suck)
1
I think it's easier to lose a son in a war you believe in. So yes, for this father it is more tragic than for another father who supports the war.
That doesn't mean it's not terrible for both. Losing a child is not something I would wish on anyone.
The older I get the more I hate the waste and stupidity of war. It is a sign that our species, at bottom, is hopelessly irrational.
Posted by: David Terrenoire at May 15, 2007 12:53 PM (kxecL)
2
Well said, David. It is not a tragedy, in the Greek sense, for a hero to die for a worthy cause. It is far closer to a tragedy for a hero to die for a foolish cause brought on by a national tragic flaw.
Posted by: Shochu John at May 15, 2007 01:14 PM (m4aO9)
3
The death of a US soldier is terrible. Period. When the man/woman chooses the honor of wearing the uniform he/she chooses to obey the civil leaders. The soldier does not pick and choose what battles the soldier fights.
It saddens me when any parent loses a child. But remember this soldier, as a man, chose the life he wanted to lead.
Posted by: Mekan at May 15, 2007 02:49 PM (hm8tW)
4
CY: Jules Crittenden, who knew Professor Bacevich
Might you be confused over the fact that father and son have the same name, Andrew Bacevich? The father, a professor at Boston U., is still alive. The son was not a professor.
Posted by: Lex Steele at May 15, 2007 10:04 PM (6LXo4)
5
Lex, Crittenden mentioned in his article that he knew him.
There seems to be a point that seems to escape some, most soldiers and military in general aren't warmongers. They are average, every day people that believe that our country, right or wrong, is worth defending. They don't want to go out in a blaze of glory, that's Hollywood. Most just want the world to be a safer place to raise their families. When I see backhanded comments about what some think our guys ideas are, I wonder if they ever talked to any.
Is it irrational to try to provide security and establish peace in a country where individual rights didn't exhist before present? (Never mind why we WENT to war, we are there now and should not leave it in turmoil).
Is it really a foolish cause to try to give people a chance at freedom? To let them live their lives without fear? To instill in them a desire for a better life?
He did not "Choose" to die in battle, he chose to protect the ideas of this country and protect freedom and democracy around the world. The individual battle, ANY individual battle is not worth dying for, it is the belief and ideas that he held that make his death not in vain.
Posted by: Retired Navy at May 16, 2007 05:29 AM (0EcTE)
6
Lex, I'm sorry that you're too lazy to actually click the link provided (it clearly answers that question).
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at May 16, 2007 07:21 AM (9y6qg)
7
I feel bad for any soldier who dies in war. Even worse for the ones who think they are fighting in Iraq for our freedoms (how could anyone fall for that canard?).
On the other hand, I'll believe he's dead when I see his flag-draped casket on TV.
(Fat chance.)
Posted by: Robert at May 16, 2007 01:51 PM (VTtVl)
8
CY: Lex, I'm sorry that you're too lazy to actually click the link provided (it clearly answers that question).
I was genuinely trying to be helpful. You said 'knew', which is past tense, so I thought perhaps you were confused.
I was confused also because I can't figure out why you are outraged about Steve Clemons's remark. Obviously it's easier for a father to accept the death of his son when believes the son died for a noble cause. That's common sense.
Posted by: Lex Steele at May 16, 2007 06:36 PM (BKFQg)
Hide Comments
| Add Comment
The Eschatology of the Coming Nuclear War
U.S. News and World Report has a short post up concerning the simulation of nuclear detonations in the Middle East:
A simulation has determined that any major use of nuclear forces in the Middle East in the next decade would most likely be "existential," meaning that an attack would amount to an effort to destroy a nation and the ability of its people to ever recover from a nuclear exchange. The briefers determined that Israel would be vulnerable to such attacks--and so would any Iranian attacker. The simulation was developed by the National Defense University in Washington, D.C., to examine the nuclear dynamics likely to develop in the Middle East between 2010 and 2020.
"In fact," noted a Center for Strategic and International Studies summary of the briefing released today, "a nation like Iran--with so much of its economy, culture, and government concentrated in Tehran and a few other cities, might prove to be far more vulnerable to the forces Israel could develop than Israel would be to the forces Iran could hope to deploy" until the end of the 2010-2020 time period. The briefing covers the use of nuclear ground bursts, fallout, longer-term death rates, and population-killing strikes. Other targets will likely include oil and gas distribution and loading facilities, desalination and water purification plants, electric power plants, and refineries--targets likely to affect the general population.
First, is there ever a "minor" use of nuclear forces?
But that isn't my main focus here.
The writer of this piece seems to imply that Iran's vulnerability to a nuclear exchange would keep it from starting a nuclear exchange with Israel. To make such an assumption, if this is the writer's intent, is a failure of cultural understanding.
It would perhaps be fair to apply Western standards and values to the state of Israel, as so much of the Israeli population emigrated to Israel from western nations, and their society and government hold with Westernized cultural values, but to attempt to apply those same cultural values to an Iranian government run by this mullacracy is to avoid the plain fact that Iran's leaders have values shaped by a radical theology all their own.
The Iranian government--and hence its
rapidly expanding nuclear weapons program, is slaved to the beliefs of a radical Shia sect called the
Hojjatieh, a cult within Shia Islam so radical that it was outlawed in 1983 by Ayatollah Khomeini.
As notes the
Persian Journal:
According to Shi'ite Muslim teaching, Abul-Qassem Mohammad, the 12th leader whom Shi'ites consider descended from the Prophet Mohammed, disappeared in 941 but will return at the end of time to lead an era of Islamic justice.
"Our revolution's main mission is to pave the way for the reappearance of the 12th Imam, the Mahdi," Ahmadinejad said in the speech to Friday Prayers leaders from across the country.
"Therefore, Iran should become a powerful, developed and model Islamic society."
"Today, we should define our economic, cultural and political policies based on the policy of Imam Mahdi's return. We should avoid copying the West's policies and systems," he added, newspapers and local news agencies reported.
Ahmadinejad refers to the return of the 12th Imam, also known as the Mahdi, in almost all his major speeches since he took office in August.
A September address to the U.N. General Assembly contained long passages on the Mahdi which confused Western diplomats and irked those from Sunni Muslim countries who believe in a different line of succession from Mohammed.
This fascination has prompted wild stories to circulate.
Presidential aides have denied a popular rumor that he ordered his cabinet to write a letter to the 12th Imam and throw it down a well near the holy city of Qom where thousands of pilgrims come each week to pray and drop messages to the Imam.
But what really has tongues wagging is the possibility that Ahmadinejad's belief in the 12th Imam's return may be linked to the supposed growing influence of a secretive society devoted to the Mahdi which was banned in the early 1980s.
Founded in 1953 and used by the Shah of Iran to try to eradicate followers of the Bahai faith, the Hojjatieh Society is governed by the conviction that the 12th Imam's return will be hastened by the creation of chaos on earth.
How seriously should we take the ruling
Hojjatieh sect?
The executive summary of one study provided to the U.S. military by a
strategic planning contractor stated:
Ultra-religious Shia clerics and Ahmadinejad are dedicated to the near-term messianic return of the 12th Imam via the creation of an apocalypse.
I don't think it gets much clearer than that.
The contention is that not only do the
Hojjatieh anticipate the "creation of chaos on earth," they actively seek to create an apocalypse. Based upon their public pronoucements and nuclear weapons research, it seems quite clear that their preferred method is to instigate a nuclear attack against Israel. They know that Israel will respond with a retaliatory nuclear strike of their own, and are in fact, are more than likely
counting on it.
It is this Israeli return nuclear strike on Tehran that Ahmadinejad and the
Hojjatieh are counting upon to trigger the Madhi's return.
Iran and Ahmadinejad have been very clear in their desire to see Israel "wiped off the map," with multiple threatening pronouncements, and Ahmadinejad himself seems quite convinced that he is
on a mission from Allah.
Mortal concerns and fears have little importance for an Iranian leadership seemingly bent on using a nuclear war to force a messianic return. Tens of millions may perish because a once-outlawed cult thinks a nuclear war will convince a four-year-old messiah to crawl out of a well in which he's been hiding 1,066 years.
I sadly fear that Democratic Party principles of avoidance will force our government to continue to discount the Iranian nuclear threat until after Iranian missiles are already arcing in towards Tel Aviv, at which point any further action against Iran will be addressed to a relative handful of survivors.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
11:41 AM
| Comments (27)
| Add Comment
| Trackbacks (Suck)
1
Excellent post, Bob. Too bad the people who could learn the most from it won't find time to read it. I added an excerpt and link to my 2007.05.15 Dem Perfidy // Islamism Delenda Est Roundup
Posted by: Bill Faith at May 15, 2007 12:47 PM (n7SaI)
2
Why does anyone think Iran would be silly enough to launch a nuke attack themselves? They have many willing allies to press the button for them. If this is the case, will any in the West be willing to attack those that are responsible without hard evidence of the fact? No.
Unfortunately this is not a Democrat Vs. Republican issue any longer. Both the Dems and the Repubs fail to call a snake a snake, or, more importantly, kill the snake that is in their midsts.
Posted by: Mekan at May 15, 2007 02:54 PM (hm8tW)
3
First, is there ever a "minor" use of nuclear forces?
The smallest fission device Ted Taylor ever designed for the US arsenal is smaller than a grapefruit.
Posted by: Purple Avenger at May 15, 2007 03:36 PM (5AiPK)
4
Let's assume you're right about Iran being suicidal. Why wait for nukes? They've got plenty of conventional warheads, and probably chemical ones as well. Why not fire 'em all at Israel and then welcome the incoming rounds?
In truth, much is made of this '12th Iman' thing, but it's a little like Christianity's Apocalypse: something you might even believe in, but are not going to seriously try to trigger.
Posted by: gregdn at May 15, 2007 03:49 PM (jVDxL)
5
The reason they dont use conventional munitions is because they want to at least hurt Israel. Conventional warheads with limited guidance are just sabers to rattle. A nuke does a huge amount of damage, doesnt need to be guided as well, and it radiates the area.
A chemical attack would cause casualties, but not nearly as many a nuclear strike. Plus it only kills, it doesnt destroy. Being a WMD though, Israel would most likely retalliate with nukes. They might be suicidal, but they wont kill themselves for nothing.
Posted by: jbiccum at May 15, 2007 04:17 PM (NiTuu)
6
Q: How do you know someone is trying to over-inflate the Iranian threat?
A: They pretend Ahmadinejad is actually in charge of Iran.
Sorry kids, strict limit of one botched war per generation. That's Iraq.
Posted by: Shochu John at May 16, 2007 11:16 AM (m4aO9)
7
Q: How can you tell if someone is a liberal?
A. When they purposefully misstate what someone else says, so they can continue to stick their heads in the sand.
What part of "Iranian government run by this mullacracy," "Iran's leaders," "their own," "the ruling Hojjatieh sect," "Ultra-religious Shia clerics and Ahmadinejad," "their public pronoucements," "Ahmadinejad and the Hojjatieh," "Iran and Ahmadinejad," "Iranian leadership," and "once-outlawed cult" (all pulled from the post itself) would make anyone with two firing brain cells interpret Ahmadinejad as the power "in charge of Iran?"
I'm quite cleary not referring to one man.
You're intellectually dishonest, John, and purposefully so.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at May 16, 2007 11:40 AM (9y6qg)
8
Let me spell this out more clearly. This entire post, and do correctly me if I'm wrong, is based on the notion that,as yous say, "[t]he Iranian government--and hence its rapidly expanding nuclear weapons program, is slaved to the beliefs of a radical Shia sect called the Hojjatieh, a cult within Shia Islam so radical that it was outlawed in 1983 by Ayatollah Khomeini."
Slave to the beliefs? Interesting. And what would make the entire Iranian government slave to such beliefs? Because, as it says in the very headline of the linked Persian Journal article, "Iran president paves the way for arabs' imam return" Indeed, the entire article is about how this school of thought influences Ahmadinejad. You yourself note that this little millenarian cult was banned in Iran over twenty years ago. So, now let's turn this into a logic puzzle. If you take evidence that the Hojjatieh controls A-Jad to mean that the Hojjatieh controls the Iranian government, it must mean that you believe A-Jad controls the Iranian government.
As I am a guest here, I shant return your accusations of purposeful intellectual dishonesty in kind, but will instead give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that you simply do not understand the ultimate logical meaning of your statements.
Posted by: Shochu John at May 16, 2007 01:00 PM (m4aO9)
9
My apologies, John.
Now seeing your most recent comment, I realize my error: I didn't make things simple enough for you to understand them.
Ayatollah Khomeini? Dead. So are his edicts, including the one that outlawed the Hojjatieh. The reason their outlawing was cited was to show that this bunch of nutters was too crazy even for their crazies. The edict, however, died with Khomeini.
The Hojjatieh not only exist, they are the power beind the Iranian Beeblebrox, Ahmadinejad, not hte other way around. Now, all of my other readers seem to grasp this without having it explained to them, so perhaps you're simply the lowest common denominator, as it were.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at May 16, 2007 01:30 PM (9y6qg)
10
"The Hojjatieh not only exist, they are the power beind the Iranian Beeblebrox, Ahmadinejad, not hte other way around."
Swing and a miss. Where did I say A-jad controlled these people? Why don't you got ahead and point that out for me.
What I said was:
"If you take evidence that the Hojjatieh controls A-Jad to mean that the Hojjatieh controls the Iranian government, it must mean that you believe A-Jad controls the Iranian government."
Please, for the love of God, take the time to read over that statement. Read it out loud to yourself if you have to There is little value to engaging in name calling because you disagree with the comments I didn't make.
Posted by: Shochu John at May 16, 2007 01:52 PM (m4aO9)
11
This is an excellent message dealing with the analogy of faith and other matters of the interpretation of prophecy.
http://polemos.net/Audio/Waldron,%20Eschatology%2017%20Revelation%2020%20Pt%201.mp3
http://polemos.net/Eschatology.html
Posted by: Jonathan at May 17, 2007 08:55 PM (mfVi1)
12
A couple of points - having read through the released briefing from CSIS, the author doesn't imply one way or the other that Iran would be deterred from use of nukes - it does however, note that it may be an existential for Israel (or it might be able to recover in 10 years), but it is much less clear that it will be recoverable over something like a 50 year timeframe for Iran.
And @ Sochu John, your argument seems to hinge on wheter Ahmadinejad is in charge or not. As far as I can tell, the control of strategic devices would most likely rest with the IRGC, not with the regular military, and in any case, I can't think of a single government in the history of mankind that was either totally under control of any single individual or completely in control of the nation as a whole.
Maybe I just don't see what you're driving at, but I don't get how the relative command-and-control authority of Ahmadinejad over all sectors of the state is relevant to his C3I over the nuclear deterrent, particularly keeping in mind that the creation of the IRGC was intended specifically to tackle the military/civil relationship.
BRD
Posted by: Bravo Romeo Delta at May 18, 2007 09:52 AM (7XogM)
Hide Comments
| Add Comment
Pour Another Glass
Your unhinged Democratic leadership in action.
I don't know if McDermott actually
believes that 500 American soldiers were killed or wounded in a single attack and that those mass casualties were covered up by the government, but the fact remains that he is obviously quite willing to float such a bizarre, unfounded allegation and actually push for an investigation.
Clearly, trutherism hysteria of various sorts has taken over a substantial portion of the Democratic/progressive political movement, from young activists all the way up to senior legislators.
Perhaps we can add McDermott to the
Kool Aid campaign.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
09:39 AM
| Comments (14)
| Add Comment
| Trackbacks (Suck)
1
no surprise that this terrorist supporter ended up in Baghdad Jim's office. There is no depth that McDermott will not sink to in order to defeat Republicans and promote socialism in America. A dishonest and anti-American loon whose presence in Congress demeans us all.
Posted by: iconoclast at May 15, 2007 10:48 AM (TzLpv)
2
If members of the Iraqi government are "terrorists", and Bush supports the Iraqi "government", does that make Bush a "terrorist supporter"?
Posted by: ec1009 at May 17, 2007 06:09 PM (xcGis)
Hide Comments
| Add Comment
Bittersweet: A Nightmare Over
Last night, Vernon Pardue fulfilled a promise he made to me in late 2005. Shortly before 10:00PM, I got an email from him:
Hello Bob
Can you give e a call ASAP
I need to talk to you.
On October 19, 2005, I wrote one of the most difficult blog entries I've ever had to write,
Torn.
I wrote then:
Law enforcement officers, like members of the military, firefighters, paramedics and other first responders are the sheepdogs that keep the wolves at bay. These men and women and their families make sacrifices every day that those of us they protect will never fully understand.
Because of all that these families do for us, when I find myself squaring off against the bereaved widow of a law enforcement officer killed in the line of duty, I do not enter into such opposition lightly.
On February 12, 2004, Wake County Sheriff's investigator Mark Tucker was gunned down by Matthew Charles Grant, a felon who didn't want to go back to prison for being the possession of a weapon. Deputy Tucker's widow, backed by the Brady Center to Prevent Gun Violence,
filed suit against Cary Jewelry & Pawn in October of 2005, alleging that:
...Cary Jewelry & Pawn, of Cary, North Carolina, negligently and illegally sold the murder weapon to an obviously dangerous person.
In November 2003, Van McQueen and Matthew Grant went to Cary Jewelry & Pawn to buy a firearm. McQueen planned to purchase a firearm as a straw buyer for Grant, because Grant was a felon prohibited from buying guns, and in return Grant promised to buy McQueen a beer. McQueen was mentally deficient and was obviously intoxicated, and the shop's clerk refused to sell him a gun. Three days later, McQueen returned to the pawn shop with Grant, again wanting to buy a firearm. Although his home address was a local mission, McQueen had $120 in cash to buy the weapon. This time, even though the same clerk who had seen McQueen intoxicated three days earlier was on duty, the shop completed the all-cash sale. McQueen then transferred the shotgun to Grant, who used it to shoot Investigator Tucker in the face, killing him. Grant was arrested, convicted of first-degree murder and sentenced to life in prison for the murder of Investigator Tucker.
"The evidence in this case clearly shows that the gun dealer irresponsibly and illegally sold a shotgun to a man it knew to be dangerous," said Daniel R. Vice, Staff Attorney with the Brady Center. "The gun dealer chose to make a quick buck rather than protect public safety; greed and recklessness caused the death of a brave law enforcement officer."
That was according to the Brady Press release.
I questioned the Brady Center's claim, and then did a bit of investigative journalism, publishing my findings several weeks later in a post called
Lawyers, Guns, and Money. My investigation showed that several of the allegations made by the Brady Center against Cary Jewelry and Pawn and its owner, Vernon Pardue, in their civil case, were falsified.
Vandorance McQueen was not mentally deficient, did not live in a mission, and did not buy the firearms three days after being turned down.
After I spoke with Pardue about this case in November of 2005, he promised he'd get back in touch with me with any major developments. He made good on his promise.
Last night, Mr. Pardue let me know that Brady has decided to drop its civil suit against him. He perhaps gives me too much credit in thanking me for my writing on the case. It was the blatant falsehoods of the Brady Center case, and the opposition of Sherrif Tucker's blood relatives, that probably had far more influence on the decision to drop the case, as Dan Tucker, Sheriff Tucker's youngest brother, noted in a comment on
November 22, 2005:
Hello CY, I am really glad I finally found a website that has been following this nonsense and has made sense from it. I am the youngest brother of Mark Tucker. I would like to publicize the fact that Mark's immediate famiy (by that I mean blood family) have absolutely nothing to with this frivilous law suit against Cary Jewelry and Pawn. We found out about it the same way most of Wake County did, via the local news. I was in the courtroom last year everyday of the trial. I know for a fact that if the pawn shop had done anything wrong, the DA's office would have charged them with criminal charges. I have personally been to see Vernan Pardue to apologize for what he is going to go through and to let him know that I hold no grudges. I would stop this if I could and believe me I've tried. And I am sure Mark would not go along with what is happening in this case. In my opinion this lawsuit is purely for publicity and exposure.
I held then, and still believe now, that the Brady Center was not interested in anything remotely like justice for the murder of Sheriff's Investigator Tucker. Justice was served by a court of law. Matthew Charles Grant is in prison. I strongly suspect that the Brady Center and its lawyers were cynically using the death of a brave law enforcement officer and the grief of his family to push a political agenda. It is a cruel, callous organization that would pursue such a manipulative course of action.
My heart goes out to the Tucker family. They will never be whole again. But I am thankful that Vernon Pardue can finally put this politically-generated nightmare behind him. If I did indeed play a small role in stopping this frivolous case, I'm thankful. Creating more misery and destroying more lives because of tragedy is not justice.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
08:20 AM
| Comments (14)
| Add Comment
| Trackbacks (Suck)
1
Im sure the Brady Center would love to sue every gun owner and dealer in this country, if we allowed them to do so. Keep fighting the good fight.
Posted by: Justin at May 15, 2007 10:10 AM (NiTuu)
2
Trackbacked by The Thunder Run - Web Reconnaissance for 05/15/2007
A short recon of what’s out there that might draw your attention.
Posted by: David M at May 15, 2007 10:24 AM (4Xncc)
3
You "believe" and "strongly suspect" the Brady Center is more interested in their own political agenda than justice itself? I hope you're being diplomatic due to the nature of the post, rather than out of respect for anyone associated with the Brady Center.
Posted by: DoorHold at May 15, 2007 06:09 PM (hN1D3)
Hide Comments
| Add Comment
May 14, 2007
John Edwards: Support the Troops By Undermining Their Mission
On a day set aside to honor those who have fallen defending liberty, Democrat John Edwards is determined to undermine the mission of those currently at war:
Democratic presidential candidate John Edwards is calling on his supporters to turn this year's Memorial Day into a day of antiwar activism, saying that the best way to honor the troops is to demand an end to the Iraq war.
"Each of us has a responsibility as Americans, a duty to our troops and to each other, to do all we can to support the troops and end this war," the former senator from North Carolina said yesterday during a commencement address at New England College in Henniker, N.H.
"This Memorial Day weekend, that means more than just getting in your car, driving to the beach, or a parade, or a picnic and saying the words, 'We support our troops,' " Edwards said.
"We must take responsibility and take action together -- as citizens, as Americans, as patriots. To support the troops. To end the war."
The new token patriotism extends to Edward's new web site
Support the Troops. End the War, when they issue this advice:
Gather in public. On Memorial Day, get your friends, kids, co-workers, neighbors, aunts, uncles, grandfathers, grandmothers, and anyone and everyone you know together to publicly support the troops and end the war. Be sure to check with your local authority for any permits you need for public gatherings. Contact local media to publicize your event. Before you get started, please take a moment of silence to honor the fallen. And during your event, make sure you conduct yourself respectfully—both for those serving in Iraq and the memory of the brave servicemen and women that Memorial Day honors.
It says a lot about his base that Edwards feels compelled to remind his supporters to honor the fallen and conduct themselves respectfully, something most Americans have known since childhood.
Edwards also
reminds visitors that contributions to his campaign aren't tax deductible.
Even heroic Edwards supporters must be willing to make sacrifices, it seems.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
02:48 PM
| Comments (39)
| Add Comment
| Trackbacks (Suck)
1
"72% of American troops serving in Iraq think the U.S. should exit the country within the next year"
--Zogby poll
Evidently the majority of the troops are on Edwards' side, not yours. Also the Iraqis overwhelmingly want us to leave. So why do you want us to stay?
Posted by: Lex Steele at May 14, 2007 04:31 PM (6LXo4)
2
I support Firefighters -- keep them out of burning buildings!! I support the police, too -- Keep them out of dangerous neighborhoods!!
Lex--
Even if 72% were an actual figure, are you proposing that we have a military run by the soldiers? Yikes.
75% of the troops want to scalp them a terrorist
-- Paully Poll
Posted by: paully at May 14, 2007 05:45 PM (0osFo)
3
And Lex pipes in with a 14 month old poll. Good stuff, Lex.
Posted by: CoRev at May 14, 2007 06:46 PM (0U8Ob)
4
Well, Paully, if you don't think the troops' opinions are persuasive, what about the Iraqi Parliament's opinion. A majority just signed a petition for us to set a timetable for clearing out. This country is alledgly democratic is it not? Something about purple fingers? Should the will of the Iraqi people not trump?
Posted by: Shochu John at May 14, 2007 06:49 PM (m4aO9)
5
The Iraqi NONBINDING resolution was a trick by the Shi'ia. They promised revisions, especially to the Kurds, but never implemented them. It is going no where.
At the same time the Shi'ia were playing games in the parliamant, the Iraqi defense minister was in DC begging the Dems to act rationally, and fund the war.
Posted by: CoRev at May 14, 2007 08:49 PM (0U8Ob)
6
Of course it's a nonbinding resolution. The Iraqi parliament can't issue orders to the U.S. military to do anything. A further of course to the notion that the Iraqi defense minister doesn't want us going anywhere (call it survival instinct). Question though: If polling the Iraqi people isn't enough and if a majority of the parliament signing a petition isn't enough, what would be enough to convince you that the Iraqis want us to adopt some sort of schedule for leaving?
Posted by: Shochu John at May 14, 2007 09:59 PM (m4aO9)
7
SJohn, which message makes sense to you? A nonbinding (call it a draft) resolution to be proposed to the cabinet to vote on, or the Defense Minister asking just the opposite of our own Congress? A minister with real responsibility versus a bunch of hot head politicos with little or no responsibility.
I've already addressed the Shi'ia subterfuge used to get to the drafting stage. It pretty much assures the Kurds will not vote for it. We have had many nonbinding resolutions recently. Do they mean the anything, other than feel good/bad statements?
Posted by: CoRev at May 14, 2007 10:15 PM (0U8Ob)
8
Paully: Even if 72% were an actual figure, are you proposing that we have a military run by the soldiers?
Prove that it's not 'an actual figure'. I said nothing about the soldiers running the military. The premise is that people like me are not supporting the troops. That is not true, the troops in fact want to leave.
CoRev: And Lex pipes in with a 14 month old poll.
Here's some fresher material for you, USA Today, December 2006:
"41% of the military said the U.S. should have gone to war in Iraq in the first place"
"When the military was feeling most optimistic about the war — in 2004 — 83% of poll respondents thought success in Iraq was likely. This year, that number has shrunk to 50%."
Satisfied?
Posted by: Lex Steele at May 14, 2007 10:36 PM (6LXo4)
9
CoRev,
I find it amusing that you discount the parliament but inflate Ubaidi as having some sort of responsibility. In terms of actual power, they are all equally worthless. The Prime Minister recently asked us to stop building the wall in Baghdad. We said we'd think about it. Then his aides backtracked on his behalf saying he was misled by press accounts. It would appear that he neither knows what is going on nor can control it. His worthlessness is reflective of that of the entire so-called government.
My point would be that the Iraqi parliament's opinion is useful insfoar as it is allegedly democratic and therefore reflective, in some vague capacity, of the will of the Iraqi people. The Iraqi people, when polled themselves, overwhelmingly want us gone (even to the point of attacking us to make it happen). So, I repeat my question, what expression on the part of the Iraqis that we should leave would you respect, if any?
Posted by: Shochu John at May 14, 2007 11:01 PM (m4aO9)
10
The Iraqi people, when polled themselves, overwhelmingly want us gone
Now provide the exit context around that question.
Posted by: Purple Avenger at May 15, 2007 05:38 AM (WO6z4)
11
SJohn, please provide the most recent poll result for your assertions. Even the latest ABC poll had mixed results, but did not ask this question: Do you want the Americans to leave, now? Every Iraqi I talk to, admittedly they are here in the US, say NO! Moreover, the ABC poll was done just as An Bar was turning, so today's results may be signiificantly different.
Posted by: CoRev at May 15, 2007 07:14 AM (0U8Ob)
12
Lex and SJohn, here is a current comment about Sunni concerns. Linked here
Posted by: CoRev at May 15, 2007 07:34 AM (0U8Ob)
13
Well, if you think polls can be trusted, it looks like everyone has soured on the war except the hardest core of hawks:
A Military Times poll from about five months ago tells us that only 35% of US soldiers approve of Bush's handling of the war (42% disapprove). Not as much dissaproval as among the general population, but it does seem as if many in the military agree with John Edwards. (To me the most interesting result here is their finding that 72% of US soldiers have deployed to Iraq at least once. This may or may not piss the troops off, but I'm here to tell you that their wives are speaking up. No surprise that divorce rates are up). See the article here: http://www.militarycity.com/polls/2006_main.php
More specifically, at least one poll hints more strongly that the troops might agree with Edwards. A Zogby poll from last year found that 72% of US troops polled wanted us out of Iraq within a year. See that one here: http://zogby.com/news/ReadNews.dbm?ID=1075
The general American population is no happier about how things are going in Iraq. An AP-Ispos poll from last week tells us that Americans are 64-33 against Bush's handling of the war. Sixty-five percent say they oppose the war, suggesting they want it ended. This is probably because 55% think it is lost. Interesting here is that almost no one has mixed feelings--Americans have made their decision about this, and it looks bad for Bush. More and more supporting the troops means bringing them home--or at least putting someone else in charge. See the polls here: http://www.pollingreport.com/iraq.htm
Finally, the Iraqi people give us a more specific opinion: they want us out of their country. Seven out of ten Iraqis want us out within a year, and six in ten say that attacks on US troops are OK. It looks like al-Q'aida is not our only enemy there. See that poll here: http://www.worldpublicopinion.org/pipa/articles/brmiddleeastnafricara/250.php
Given the state of public opinion in Iraq, it should surprise no one that the national legislature there gives voice to it. What I find interesting is the number of Americans who use elections and democracy as an indicator of success there, yet discount a duly passed, if non-binding, resolution asking for withdrawal of US forces there. If their legislature doesn't matter, then democracy is not an indicator of success in Iraq.
Mr. Edwards' argument that supporting the troops means getting them out of a war zone is not a specious one, at least not if part of that argument is that the troops themselves want out, and that their deployment there is not helping to protect US national security. We certainly don't want the troops running the military and voting on deployments (though many of you are happy to let the troops decide with whom they will serve when discussions of homosexuals in the military start). And protecting the troops does not mean keeping them at home and safe at the risk of our security--they enlisted just as I did, and know the risks and rewards of military life. But it does mean that we owe them proper equipment and competent leadership. The current administration has given them neither, and they know it (and I don't want to hear about how the Democratic Congress is shortchanging them today--these guys were sent to Iraq improperly equipped in 2003, as Rumsfeld himself acknowledged).
I believe that invading Iraq, deposing Saddam, and attempting to establish democracy there was a fool's errand in the first place, and could not have been successful even with competent leadership. Our military forces are very good, and the US projects power well, but it can't accomplish every mission--some things simply can't be done with the force levels we have. No one knows more about the limitations of military power than a soldier, and soldiers of all ranks are starting to speak more loudly about it limitations here.
I believe this only took our attention away from the real fight, and it has been a waste of our national treasure and of the lives of fine soldiers. Saying so does not make me a traitor, or less a supporter of the troops--many of whom are my freinds and former colleagues. If it does, then many of our own soldiers serving in Iraq and Afghanistan are themselves treacherous.
Posted by: R. Stanton Scott at May 15, 2007 07:48 AM (xgE7G)
14
I am in the military, and just took a quick poll of the 27 personnel who work in the same location as I do.
There were 25 for the war, 1 undecided, and 1 against the war.
So I wasnt satisfied with those results I went on to contact my cousin who I asked to perform the same survey in his military unit.
47 for the war, 2 against, 1 in the hospital so he couldnt be asked.
Now where in any of those numbers does the 72% come up??????
Posted by: 81 at May 15, 2007 08:17 AM (0EcTE)
15
81: Two words--representative sample.
Posted by: R. Stanton Scott at May 15, 2007 09:51 AM (nYb+x)
16
CoRev,
Thankfully, there is someone here providing the poll results so I don't have to go dig them up (thank you, R. Stanton Scott). Secondly, you may not find this question asked or discussed much: "Do you want the Americans to leave, now?" The reason is that question is asinine, first and foremost because it is impossible. You just can't beam well over a hundred thousand soldiers and their equipment out of a country overnight. Disengaging from Iraq will require a date certain or timeable, if you will, to do it, such that it can be accomplished in a vaguely organized fashion, and these are the terms the question is usually asked in polls.
As to your link, I would note firstly that the sentiments come from Talebani, which should be, of course, taken with a big grain of salt when it comes to Sunni Arab opinions. Secondly, if this is true, it should be noted that when the Sunnis turn their attention to "the Iranians", that means the Shi'a. Considering the fact that Shi'ite death squads have been ethnic cleansing Sunni areas, I find it unsurprising that Sunnis consider them a substantial problem. If anything this portends an intensification of the sectarian violence.
Finally, I ask again, for the third time, theoretically, what expression on the part of the Iraqis that we should leave would you respect, if any?
Posted by: Shochu John at May 15, 2007 10:12 AM (m4aO9)
17
SJohn, answering is easy. A poll of Iraqis that answered my one, simple question. Or a real vote of the parliament and law signed by Maliki asking/directing us to leave. And, even a poll here in the US that asked just this one simple question: "Do you want us to lose in Iraq?"
Now, don't get all rapped around the axle re: how the withdrawal would be accomplished. Just feel all warm and cuddly that your views prevailed.
SJohn this not necessarily true: "Disengaging from Iraq will require a date certain..." that's the Dem party line, but it could just as well be "event driven". An event just like the results from a national referendum answering my question. I prefer the referendum to a poll it is likely to be skewed.
Posted by: CoRev at May 15, 2007 11:04 AM (0U8Ob)
18
RSS, and what would make a "Two words--representative sample"? As you used your own feelings re: the subject earlier, It is my opinion that 81's poll is as representative of actual feelings of our fine military, as are yours.
BTW, most of your polls are already badly dated.
Posted by: CoRev at May 15, 2007 11:12 AM (0U8Ob)
19
"Do you want us to lose in Iraq?"
Now that is what I call a loaded question. I presume "us" means the U.S. and the dwindling coalition of the willing. This question is certainly not good for actually determining whether Iraqis would like U.S. forces to leave or set a schedule for doing so. Indeed, it stands to reason that many Iraqis would like us to stay so we can lose (call it the Zawahiri strategy). In any case, if you are going to craft a loaded question, that one may not get you the answer you desire. The number of Iraqis who say "yes" would probably track closely with the number who think it is acceptable to attack U.S. forces.
"BTW, most of your polls are already badly dated."
Luckily, they are irrelevant to any actual discussion of withdrawal as they fail to ask the above-discussed loaded question, yes?
Thank you for finally answering the question, though. I find your response illuminating. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems to indicate that there is absolutely no expression of the will of the Iraqi people which (1) could possibly occur (a referendum on the above question not being remotely realistic) and (2) you would honor as a valid request for us to leave.
Posted by: Shochu John at May 15, 2007 12:08 PM (m4aO9)
20
81: "Representative sample" means that the random sample of people asked the poll question reflects the demographic makeup of the entire universe of members of the group. So a poll of troops, for example, would have to include the appropriate numbers of officers and enlisted soldiers, the right numbers from the different branches, age groups, gender groups, and ethnicities. Otherwise there is no way to know whether something about the sample makes them more likely to answer in a certain way. If your informal poll, for example, is all Navy personnel, or officers, it may reflect the views of that subgroup, but not of the larger population. I would be very surprised if your sample was representative.
It also matters who asks, by the way. If someone in a leadership position does the asking, the results will likely be skewed, probably to whatever position the troops think the leader holds. So if a commander conducts such an informal poll, and he is known to be a proponent of the war, troops will be likely to tell him what he wants to hear.
CoRev: Badly dated? The oldest one is from last September, and one from only five months ago. The poll of Americans was from last week. How recent to do want them to be?
The poll of troops is conducted annually. The numbers changed drastically since the 2005 poll. The trend is toward support for withdrawal, even among the troops.
And there is absolutely no analytical value to asking "Do you want us to lose in Iraq." It is a colossally stupid poll question--of course very few will say they do. More importantly, there is no reason to equate withdrawal with losing. We did not "lose" the Pacific War because we fought the Germans first, nor because we abandoned the Phillipines--both moves made military sense.
More importantly, from the perspective of our enemies we are losing under the current policy. With only a few thousand operatives (I can't bring myself to call them soldiers--I know what a soldier looks like, and those guys don't cut it) they have tied down almost one-half of the US military ground combat capability, and a good portion of its Navy and Air Force to boot.
Read that again and think about it. Only a few thousand poorly equipped and trained operatives have locked half the military forces of the lone superpower into a war of attrition that has no real good definition of victory. If you don't see the ginormous stupidity of letting them do this, then there is little more I can say.
But they are also bleeding us financially in a way that may well ruin our economy if the Chinese suddenly decide to stop lending us money. The have us living in fear and trading civil liberties for safety (you guys don't care about this until they start messing with your guns), while they expand their operations in Afghanistan and Europe.
We are losing, in other words, because we are not winning. And I find it hard to understand how staying in Iraq is supposed to "win" the war on terrorism. The al-Q'aida folks there are only marginally part of that group, and they are at any rate as hated by the locals as we seem to be. In fact, leaving may be our best move, since it would free the Shia and Sunnis there to deal with foreign terrorists their own way, and then come to some accomodation between them.
In the end, I am not convinced that Iraq would become any more chaotic if we left than it is now. And if it does, we haven't given anything up but the chance to stay in the middle of the Sunni-Shia bar fight. At any rate, we are left with a variety of bad options. Let's at least get our good soldiers and our wallets out of Iraq so they can be put to better use elsewhere.
Posted by: R. Stanton Scott at May 15, 2007 04:43 PM (ysvN+)
21
R.Stanton Scott, Saddam, Uday, and Qusay aren't around for this debate, so it looks like a Victory to me. What "elsewhere" do you have in mind?
Posted by: Tom TB at May 15, 2007 05:38 PM (A5s0y)
22
Tom TB: Afghanistan, for starters. Potentially China, North Korea, or Russia. The Taliban is resurgent, and may be taking that country back. And if you think we can deal with other potential threats with half our combat power in Iraq, you are sadly mistaken.
If your definition of "victory" is that Saddam and his brothers are dead, what are we still doing there? We already won, right?
Posted by: R. Stanton Scott at May 15, 2007 05:49 PM (ysvN+)
Posted by: R. Stanton Scott at May 15, 2007 05:49 PM (ysvN+)
24
R. Stanton Scott:
For my poll the demographics were as follows
First this is a Naval Organization but does include Marines.
O-7 and above = 1
O-4 to O-6 = 4
O-1 to O-3 = 0
E-7 to E-9 = 10
E-1 to E-6 = 12
Now for my cousin this is an Army unit that returned from Iraq 6 months ago.
O-7 and above = 0
O-4 to O-6 = 2
O-1 to O-3 = 5
E-7 to E-9 = 5
E-1 to E-6 = 37
I am sorry it took so long for me to get these numbers together but it is hard to get my cousins information while he is stationed overseas.
Now if this is not a reprsentative answer then how does a poll that is conducted thru a paper, that most military members read only to find how much their next pay raise or what the next big uniform issue is, represenataive?
* This was an informal poll.
Posted by: 81 at May 16, 2007 11:00 AM (0EcTE)
25
81: From a pay grade standpoint, it looks pretty close to representative. But other factors could matter as well, such as gender and specific occupational specialty. And, as I said, it matters who asks the questions.
The Military Times Poll was not conducted by asking readers to give their views. They commission a polling firm to conduct the surveys, after finding a representative sample. They asked non-readers the survey questions--in fact, it is likely that very few actual readers responded in the poll.
Your informal poll is certainly interesting, but it is not representative and says only that those particular units are very pro war, for some reason--or at least the members of the units say they are. It is in fact quite likely that many units in the US military would give similar results, whereas others would give an opposite one--balancing the opinions of the first (and note that I would not say that a unit giving the opposite result would be any more reliable when conducted in this fashion).
It is important to remember that people routinely lie when answering poll questions (not that I am saying your respondents did--there is really no way to know for sure). They often give the answer they think the pollster wants to hear. The best example of this is voting: after elections, when voters are polled and asked whether they voted, many more than actually did claim that they went to the polls. So if I poll citizens in a Congressional District where 50% voted, I am likely to get as many as 70% saying they voted. This happens almost every time, and it means that polls are at best a general tool.
Once again, I don't want to be too critical of your informal poll. It is a very interesting result. But the MT poll probably says more about broader opinion on the war among the troops.
Posted by: R. Stanton Scott at May 16, 2007 03:40 PM (qJzNa)
Hide Comments
| Add Comment
Al Qaeda Warns U.S. To Stop Search For Missing Soldiers
On Saturday, a U.S. patrol was ambushed near Mahmoudiya, Iraq. Four U.S. soldiers and an Iraqi soldier acting as their interpreter was killed in the ambush, and three soldiers are missing. The Islamic State of Iraq (ISI), an al Qaeda front group, is claiming responsibility for the attack, and has warned the thousands of coalition forces in the area to stop looking for the missing soldiers.
While we all obviously hope that the three missing soldiers will be recovered alive, I suspect that they were never captured alive to begin with, a sad suspicion shared at
Hot Air. Knowing the fate in store for them if they did surrender--brutal torture followed by a YouTubed beheading--our soldiers would most likely fight to the death.
Because of this, I suspect al Qaeda managed a successful ambush and body thievery, but captured no living prisoners.
The al Qaeda cry to quit looking for the captured soldiers was likely issued from fears that the on-going search would further disrupt al Qaeda terrorist cells and turn up weapons caches. Thus far, two terrorists have been killed, four others wounded, and 100 people have been detained as the military sweep south of Baghdad continues.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
01:36 PM
| Comments (19)
| Add Comment
| Trackbacks (Suck)
1
I thought they wanted us to stay in Iraq. Wouldn't they want us on the streets. Al Qaeda is sending me mixed signals.
Posted by: BohicaTwentyTwo at May 14, 2007 03:54 PM (oC8nQ)
2
They should have been doing this a long time ago. I hate to see it came to some soldiers getting killed for them to properly search an area.
Posted by: Retired Navy at May 15, 2007 05:00 AM (cqZXM)
3
So Al Qaeda wants to tell the U.S. military what to do? Okay, AQ, where are you located? Come out, come out wherever you are!
Posted by: Tom TB at May 15, 2007 07:09 AM (2nDll)
Hide Comments
| Add Comment
Edu-Terrorism
A question for parents: how would you feel if your child's teacher terrorized your child?
Staff members of an elementary school staged a fictitious gun attack on students during a class trip, telling them it was not a drill as the children cried and hid under tables.
The mock attack Thursday night was intended as a learning experience and lasted five minutes during the weeklong trip to a state park, said Scales Elementary School Assistant Principal Don Bartch, who led the trip.
"We got together and discussed what we would have done in a real situation," he said.
But parents of the sixth-grade students were outraged.
"The children were in that room in the dark, begging for their lives, because they thought there was someone with a gun after them," said Brandy Cole, whose son went on the trip.
The children in this incident emerged
physically unscathed, but that outcome was not guaranteed. The students could have just as easily panicked and attempted to escape, at which point the 69 student could have trampled one another, causing serious injuries.
The school principal, Catherine Stephens, in a hidious understatement, said that the staff members involved exhibited "poor judgment." The school Web site says the teachers involved considered the act of edu-terrorism a "
prank."
Poor judgement? A prank? A teacher berating a child in front of their class for getting an answer wrong exhibits poor judgment. A camp prank is "short-sheeting" a bed.
The staff and teachers of Scales Elementary School premeditated and carried out a plot in which almost six dozen children were purposefully convinced they might die. In any other situation, such a threat, serious or not, would and should be viewed as a criminal act.
A real example of poor judgment in this instance would be the continued employment of these sadists as teachers. I hope that Murfreesboro City Schools has better judgement than that.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
12:16 PM
| Comments (14)
| Add Comment
| Trackbacks (Suck)
1
Disgusting. Let's pretend to drive their school bus off a cliff! Let's pretend to poison their food! Let's pretend to sexually molest them! That'll show the little buggers what life is like.
Posted by: DoorHold at May 14, 2007 05:11 PM (ntdFS)
Hide Comments
| Add Comment
Banned Aid
How good of an idea is this?
Soldiers serving overseas will lose some of their online links to friends and loved ones back home under a Department of Defense policy that a high-ranking Army official said would take effect Monday.
The Defense Department will begin blocking access "worldwide" to YouTube, MySpace and 11 other popular Web sites on its computers and networks, according to a memo sent Friday by Gen. B.B. Bell, the U.S. Forces Korea commander.
The policy is being implemented to protect information and reduce drag on the department's networks, according to Bell.
"This recreational traffic impacts our official DoD network and bandwidth ability, while posing a significant operational security challenge," the memo said.
The armed services have long barred members of the military from sharing information that could jeopardize their missions or safety, whether electronically or by other means.
The new policy is different because it creates a blanket ban on several sites used by military personnel to exchange messages, pictures, video and audio with family and friends.
My gut reaction? While I can understand the infrastructure demands that these and similar sites place upon defense networks designed first and foremost with military applications in mind, the ban once again shows a fundamental lack of understanding by military officials the importance online communications can and should play as part of a modern military's communications strategy.
Predictably, users of these sites will simply shift to similar sites that are not banned, and the military will waste more time and resources attempting to keep up in an ever-expanding, cat-and-mouse challenge as our ever-resourceful troops find new ways to keep lines of communication open with their stateside friends and family.
Instead of attempting to muzzle communications between soldiers and their social networks, the military should encourage communications between the troops in the field and their friends and family members back home. Time and again, the most positive messages coming out of Iraq and Afghanistan are those being voiced by our soldiers to friends and relatives in emails transformed into in
blog entries and newspaper editorials.
The War on Terror is every bit as much a war of pixels and pictures and mindshare as it is a war of bullets and bravery. al Qaeda and the various insurgent groups know this instinctively, and dominate social networking and file-sharing sites. The Pentagon should engage their own
Army of Davids and have our troops counter terrorist propaganda with their own frontline perspectives. Instead, those in senior positions who do not understand the communications battlespace plan to flee the online field, ceding it to the enemy.
There is no other way to address this than to call this flawed policy what it is: military communications shortsightedness of epic proportions.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
10:52 AM
| Comments (12)
| Add Comment
| Trackbacks (Suck)
1
I excerpted and linked at DoD blocks MySpace, YouTube, others (and part of this blog). I've been surprised how little I've seen this mentioned on other pro-troop sites, even after I emailed some of them to make sure they knew about it. I'd probably have seen your post earlier if I hadn't been busy redoing my site to make it less dependent on Photobucket, one of the sites that's apparently blocked now. I was hoping the brass learned something from the milblogs fiasco but apparently not.
Posted by: Bill Faith at May 14, 2007 10:05 PM (n7SaI)
2
I know someone who XXXXX that processes all the XXXXX into and out of Iraq. They said the pipe is indeed limited.
Posted by: Purple Avenger at May 14, 2007 11:01 PM (WO6z4)
Hide Comments
| Add Comment
Dollard: Starving Parasites
Pat Dollard, Hollywood agent turned combat filmmaker and IED magnet, is echoing a sentiment I've been hearing more and more from fellow combat journalists: the war in Iraq is going very badly... for al Qaeda:
Terrorists are parasites. They rely on a host body to support them. Now they can terrorize a host body into providing them support, but that will only go so far. Ultimately, the host body must be somewhat sympathetic to the terrorists, or else, by sheer dint of numbers, the members of the host body will be able to reject the terrorists. These two principles explain the entire history of Al Qaeda’s reign over Al Anbar. Al Anbar, like Al Qaeda, is a Sunni entity. The people of Al Anbar were sympathetic enough to Al Qaeda that they provided them sanctuary, support and even manpower - which is to say, the very lifeblood that this parasite required. Finally, the Sunnis of Al Anbar had enough of the bleak and empty future, and very bloody present, that comprised the entirety of Al Qaeda’s offerings. And so the host body rejected the parasite. The parasite is now in its last possible refuge, the mixed Sunni/Shiite Triangle of Death & Diyala Province areas, just south and northeast of Baghdad, respectively. My time in Iraq started there, and will likely end there. Along with Al Qaeda’s.
There is a reason neither Al Qaeda or the Iranian Shiite Insurgents have no traction in Kurdistan. There is no sympathetic and compliant host body. There is a reason Al Qaeda has no traction in the southern/eastern Shiite areas of Iraq. There is no compliant, sympathetic (which is to say, Sunni) host body. There is only one place left with enough of a sympathetic, compliant host body for Al Qaeda to keep itself alive in. This is the mixed Sunni/Shiite Triangle of Death. An appropriate appellation for the battlefield of Iraq’s Apocalypse with its Public Enemy #1. Iraqis, Al Qaeda, U.S. forces. A triangle of death, indeed.
We're not hearing very much like this from the professional media nor the U.S. military, for very understandable and strikingly similar reasons.
The media staked out their narrative to a doomed war long ago, and will only begin to back off of that position once they are sure that al Qaeda,
and the Sunni insurgency is nearing collapse. The Iraqi government, U.S. government, and Coalition military and police forces are likewise cautious about overstating successes knowing that previous claims of a faltering insurgency have turned out to be false.
But Dollard's comments are part of a low, growing rumble from observers who have seen Iraq firsthand.
Bill Roggio,
J.D. Johannes, and others have been noting for several months the turnaround in al Anbar province, formerly the heart of the Sunni insurgency, as the Anbar Awakening has seen the overwhelming majority of the Sunni tribes once loyal to al Qaeda and the Sunni insurgency reject the terrorists, and accept the U.S. and coalition forces as allies. It is these tribes that are now leading the hunt for al Qaeda, joining the Iraqi police and military in record numbers, and when they cannot get into official government security positions fast enough to hunt the terrorists, using their own ad hoc tribal militias to establish neighborhood security checkpoints and choke al Qaeda off and attack and kill al Qaeda aligned tribes.
This Awakening movement has spread as al Qaeda becomes the hunted in Anbar. al Qaeda continues its flight to Diyala, only to find the Sunni Awakening spreading to Diyala as well.
The media,
quick to notice stumbling blocks and setbacks, seems unable to mention the obvious truth that al Qaeda and their Sunni allies, along with similar efforts by Shia militias trained and equipped by Iran, are also in their own version of a surge to counter our own.
Shia death squads will step up attacks against Sunni civilians in an effort to stoke Sunni militancy, just as the Islamic State of Iraq, a Sunni insurgent umbrella group, attempts to goad Sunnis into attacks against Shia, and al Qaeda continues to indiscriminately target Sunni, Shia, and Kurd to increases tensions among all groups.
What the U.S. military is hoping to accomplish with the COIN doctrine will not end the insurgency overnight, nor was that ever the promise. What it does intend, and where it is succeeding, is in engaging the Iraqis and helping civilians tired of war turn on Sunni, Shia, and al Qaeda militants among them.
As Dollard and others have noted, and as the British noted in Mayala, insurgencies are only viable as long as the population will support them. While it typically takes a decade or longer to completely defeat an insurgency, they rarely (never?) succeed once the bulk of the population turns against them. Once that tipping point is reached, much more blood may yet be spilled, but the final outcome all but assured.
Dollard is correct when he states al Qaeda in Iraq may end in Diyala. The tipping point against them seems to have already been reached in al Anbar, with the bulk of their former allies turning against them, and now hunting them down like dogs. As the Diyala Awakening gathers momentum, al Qaeda and aligned insurgents will no doubt mount more spectacular, bloody attacks in an attempt to intimidate the population into compliance. Like in al Anbar, those attacks are only likely to fuel anti-al Qaeda, anti-insurgency sentiment.
It is still very possible, considering the political climate, that we can still lose the war in Iraq because of its unpopularity here in the United States, and a corrupt and incompetent Iraqi government apparently more interested in personal profit than national unity and reconciliation. Our military is stretched close to its limits, and the will of Iran and Syria to continue supporting various militias and insurgent groups does not appear to lack resolve, or any real consequences for their support from either the United Nations or the United States.
The governments of the United States, Great Britain, Syria, Iran, Saudi Arabia and perhaps a dozen other countries near and far are attempting to shape Iraq's future for their own best interests. The various religions, sects, and tribes within Iraq have formed and split alliances over the past four-plus years, attempting to do what they think is best for themselves. With all of these internal and external actors attempting to exert power and influence, it is ultimately up to the Iraqi people to determine which fate will envelope their nation. Perhaps the rise of The Awakening al Anbar and Diyala are an indication that the future they are choosing is one of hope amidst the carnage.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
09:20 AM
| Comments (14)
| Add Comment
| Trackbacks (Suck)
1
I've seen this in several places and I know this will come as a surprise to some of your more right-leaning readers, but I hope this is true.
Yes, a liberal who wants us to succeed in Iraq. Shocking, I know.
As for the Iraqis finally getting tired of getting blown up every time they go out for a loaf of bread, it's about d**n time.
Posted by: David Terrenoire at May 14, 2007 09:43 AM (kxecL)
Hide Comments
| Add Comment
<< Page 154 >>
Processing 0.05, elapsed 0.1556 seconds.
37 queries taking 0.1192 seconds, 235 records returned.
Page size 251 kb.
Powered by Minx 0.8 beta.