Confederate Yankee
September 27, 2007
Rocky Mountain High Fabulist?
Remember that addled Colorado State University student editor who responded to a Florida student getting tasered by police at a John Kerry event with a four-word editorial ending in "F--k Bush"?
Somehow his story is starting to sound
strangely familiar:
Early on, McSwane did a piece about cocaine dealing in Fort Collins, based on anonymous sources, Lowrey said. Lowrey said he decided to kill the article when McSwane declined to reveal the sources to him.
Also troubling to other students was McSwane's story of growing up in a foster home.
"So he has this heartbreaking story," Lowrey said. But students learned that the foster mother in the home was Hansen, McSwane's natural mother.
"I raised him, and yes, I'm a foster mother," Hansen said. "He was never, ever a foster child."
McSwane's editor, Brandon Lowrey, attempted to fact-check McSwane's cocaine story, and refused to run it when McSwane didn't provide evidence to support the claims.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
12:38 PM
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1
Hmmmm.
I rather prefer this:
I can has Cheezburger
Posted by: memomachine at September 27, 2007 03:24 PM (3pvQO)
2
Facts are for weaklings who can't handle lies.
Posted by: Purple Avenger at September 27, 2007 05:11 PM (iuG/e)
3
It's all part of the Vast Right-Wing Conspiracy!
Posted by: C-C-G at September 27, 2007 06:43 PM (sOYAM)
4
McSwane will make a fine professional journalist.
Posted by: Dusty at September 27, 2007 09:02 PM (1Lzs1)
5
The modern academy believes there are no such things as "facts," only opinions based on power relationships. Thus, African-Americans overwhelmingly believed in the innocence of O.J. while whites knew he was guilty and should fry. This new paradigm being so, why not manufacture such "truth" as one wants? If a reader doesn't believe it, he's entitled to his opinion. Seamless, when you think about it.
Posted by: Banjo at September 28, 2007 06:44 AM (1DQ52)
6
He sounds like a perfect journalist for the MSM.
Posted by: Mekan at September 28, 2007 07:45 AM (hm8tW)
7
Except for one little problem, Banjo... the concept of relative truth, which is what you were explaining, is not itself considered to be a relative truth.
Therefore, statements such as "there is no absolute truth" fall flat on their face, because that is an absolute statement.
Posted by: C-C-G at September 28, 2007 09:07 AM (sOYAM)
8
So let's make it all up. You pick your "facts" and I'll pick mine. My jury will acquit, yours will convict. What difference does it make?
Posted by: Banjo at September 28, 2007 01:12 PM (1DQ52)
9
So let's make it up. You pick your "facts" and I'll pick mine. My jury will acquit, yours convict. If the truth is fungible, who cares?
Posted by: Banjo at September 28, 2007 01:15 PM (1DQ52)
10
Banjo, try telling your bank that in your version of truth, 2+2=5 and see how far ya get.
That's why it matters.
Posted by: C-C-G at September 28, 2007 07:17 PM (sOYAM)
11
Interesting how those railing against liberties lost are having no problems getting their voices heard...
The intellectual disconnect rampant in our world today is stunning.
Posted by: bains at September 29, 2007 12:31 AM (3jang)
12
Indeed, Bains, indeed.
I once ran across someone on another blog who claimed that those that disagreed with President Bush somehow mysteriously disappeared. I asked why he wasn't afraid of the same fate.
He never replied, so maybe he did have a point. -lol-
Posted by: C-C-G at September 29, 2007 09:26 AM (sOYAM)
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Surrender
Based upon their statements in last night's Democratic Presidential debate, the leading candidates have surrendered the thought of a near-term military pullout from Iraq.
From the
Associated Press:
The leading Democratic White House hopefuls conceded Wednesday night they cannot guarantee to pull all U.S. combat troops from Iraq by the end of the next presidential term in 2013.
"I think it's hard to project four years from now," said Sen. Barack Obama of Illinois in the opening moments of a campaign debate in the nation's first primary state.
"It is very difficult to know what we're going to be inheriting," added Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton of New York.
"I cannot make that commitment," said former Sen. John Edwards of North Carolina.
Senator Christopher Dodd and New Mexico Governor Bill Richardson said that they would pull out American military forces if elected president, but with Richardson currently
polling at only 3% and Dodd not even on the radar at 1%, what they feel, frankly, matters little.
As Bryan notes at
Hot Air, "The netroots ain't gonna like this."
He's quite right, but at this point, they seem not to matter.
"Captain Ed" Morrissey gives General David Petraeus credit for
shifting the debate over the war:
How far has General David Petraeus moved the debate on Iraq? His testimony on the surge, and the effects of the surge itself, has made it much more difficult for Democrats to argue for withdrawal and defeat...
[snip]
...Americans don't like to lose wars, and given the successes that Petraeus has generated, more Americans see an opportunity to persevere in Iraq. Leading Democrats realize now that running as the party of defeat when we continue to gain ground may sound good in the primaries, but will be disastrous in the general election.
What we may--and I caution,
may--be witnessing here is a bursting of the progressive blogosphere's image of its influence over the rest of the Democratic Party.
I'm not stating by any stretch of the imagination that the entire online progressive community has been neutered as the result of a presidential primary debate that few American watched, but it should be sobering nonetheless for groups such as A.N.S.W.E.R., Code Pink, and others who have made their primary political issue the full, near-term withdrawal of American forces from Iraqi soil.
The three front-running Democratic candidates have said, in no uncertain terms, that they will not commit to a pull-out during the next presidency. The very vocal supporters of these groups have been told, in no uncertain terms, that the Democratic frontrunners do not think that their arguments are viable.
General Petraeus' Congressional testimony changed few minds on Iraq, but the testimony of men and women
on the ground as to the effects of the "surge" seem to have created a groundswell of what may not be support for the war, but is certainly at least
tolerance among the American people to give our military and the Iraqi people the chance to continue the campaign.
It was this tolerance and trust of our soldiers and the Iraqi people that anti-war types have tried since 2003 to undermine.
They've constantly played the refrain over and over again of Abu Ghraib and other atrocities large and small, inevitable failure, nefarious schemes and schemas, and unnecessary deaths that would only end, and could only end, if American forces turned tail and fled Iraq, to let it become a failed state. Worse, they often protrayed Iraqis themselves as a blood-lusting "other," that longs only for war and martyrdom, instead of stability, opportunity, and hope for their children.
But Iraqis love their children.
With the help of American sailors, soldiers, airmen and Marines, Iraq's villagers and tribesmen have joined in their own grassroots efforts towards stabilizing Iraq, with both provincial Sunnis and Shias fighting back against terrorists, extremists, and criminals responsible for so much of the nation's violence. They do so by forming their own federally-recognized militias, the police and the Army, and joining a political process they once shunned. The small towns and villages are leading, and larger towns and national politicians seem to be slowly following their lead, even as outsiders from al Qaeda and Iran find Iraqi lands to be less hospitable and far more lethal than they once were.
When a terrorist car bomb decimates a tribal militia checkpoint guarding a village, and the townspeople rebuild and re-man the checkpoint even as the dead are being laid to rest, that makes a statement. When terrorists blow up a police recruiting center and potential recruits step into the footprints of those who have fallen before them, it makes a statement.
This is a budding grassroots effort that Americans watching the conflict are willing to get behind.
Clinton, Obama, and Edwards have grasped this truth.
The netroots, it seems,
will take a while longer.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
10:48 AM
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1
I saw a news link -- on Drudge, probably -- to the effect that Bush is quietly having the word passed to the Dem candidates to leave themselves some wiggle room on bugging out of Iraq.
On the one hand, that would seem a wise, yet also "new tone"-ish, thing for Bush to do. On the other, it also offers the Dems a fig leaf they can wave at the netroots. A win-win for them -- assuming they can actually, you know, win. The election, that is.
Posted by: McGehee at September 27, 2007 11:08 AM (K13Au)
2
Worse, they often protrayed Iraqis themselves as a blood-lusting "other," that longs only for war and martyrdom, instead of stability, opportunity, and hope for their children.
Cite please? Or...did you, um, "Beauchamp" that?
Posted by: Xanthippas at September 27, 2007 01:57 PM (018Z+)
3
Hmmmm.
Frankly I was vastly amused yesterday when Senator Robert Byrd threw the Pink Ladies out of the hearing.
"I've had about as much of you as I can stand"
lol.
Posted by: memomachine at September 27, 2007 03:26 PM (3pvQO)
4
Byrd probably has a lot of experience in this area. For all we know, during his Exalted Cyclops days, he threw uppity blacks out of buses if they tried to sit in the front.
Posted by: MarkJ at September 27, 2007 04:05 PM (ZFVlP)
5
"I am The Mighty KOZ!"
"Ignore the man behind the curtain!"
Posted by: Mikey NTH at September 27, 2007 06:17 PM (kAnhF)
6
Oh, I suspect MoveOn will threaten to withhold funding from candidates that don't toe the "defeat now" line, and then we'll see all the candidates of the Party of the Donkey fall into lock-step again.
As long as MoveOn controls so much of the funding, they will continue to control the debate.
Posted by: C-C-G at September 27, 2007 06:46 PM (sOYAM)
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September 25, 2007
Absolute Moral Authority: Ahmadinejad Edition
The Hill reports that Cindy Sheehan is counting on celebrity endorsements to shore up her long-shot bid against Speaker of the House Nancy Pelosi.
According to the Hill's Karissa Marcum:
Anti-war activist Cindy Sheehan is making celebrity endorsements a key facet of her long-shot bid to defeat House Speaker Nancy Pelosi (D-Calif.) next year.
In a recent interview with The Hill, Sheehan said she has been endorsed by actress Roseanne Barr, country crooner Willie Nelson and Rage Against the Machine guitarist Tom Morello.
Sheehan added that White House hopeful Rep. Dennis Kucinich (D-Ohio) and former Rep. Cynthia McKinney (D-Ga.) are also backing her.
"Celebrities bring a certain kind of — good or bad, it seems like our lives are centered around TV and movies — I think it does bring credibility," Sheehan said.
Nelson is a friend of Sheehan's and has offered to help her raise money for her campaign. "[Nelson and his wife] just have the exact correct politics and the exact compassion for the earth and humanity that I think attracts us as friends," she said.
"I support Cindy Sheehan in everything she does," Nelson wrote in an e-mail, "whether it's running for Congress, or the president of the U.S. She's a great American, not afraid to stand up for what she believes in."
I wonder if Barr, Nelson, etc. support these comments
penned by Sheehan yesterday:
I heard that Iranian president Mahmoud Ahmadinejad spoke at Columbia University because Columbia's president wanted to foster a "free exchange of ideas." Even though I am not an Ahmadinejad supporter, I know he was elected in Iran in a knee-jerk and understandable response to the USA's bloody unnecessary invasion of Iraq, as many reactionary governments have been elected in that region and all over the world in response to the spreading U.S. corporate and military empire.
Citing such human rights' violations in the form of imprisonment and executions, Columbia University's president very boorishly said that Ahmadinejad appeared to be a "petty and cruel dictator." First of all, how does one invite someone to your place for a "free exchange of ideas" and be such a rude American? Did he only invite Ahmadinejad so he could publicly scold him or to become the darling of Fox News?
[snip]
Another boorish American, Scott Pelley (of 60 Minutes) hammered Ahmadinejad about sending weapons into Iraq without even once acknowledging the immoral tons of weapons that we rained on the citizens of Iraq during "shocking and awful"; the cluster bombs that look like toys that litter the killing fields of that country and have killed and maimed so many children; the mercenary killers that outnumber our troops and use the people of Iraq for target practice; the thousands of tons of weapons that the U.S. let out of such weapons dumps as al-Qaqaa that were left unguarded while the oil ministry was heavily fortified.
[snip]
The fascist, near dictatorship of the Bush regime (a la Nazi Germany) has even intimidated universities to align with their hypocritical murderous rhetoric. Universities should feel free to invite anyone to speak to open much needed dialogue in our country and in the world. And if a person is invited, they should be treated by the person who invited them with a slight modicum of courtesy and then let the rocking and rolling begin with the "Q & A"... which would truly be a free exchange of ideas. I am surprised President Bollinger didn't have President Ahmadinejad tased.
Peace is going to take all the nations working in cooperation to limit naked aggression and human rights' violations, not just the ones that the U.S. declare as evil. How many nukes do we have? How many does Pakistan have? How many does India, Israel, North Korea, and the former Soviet Union have? Should the rhetoric be about destroying all weapons of mass destruction and not just prohibiting Iran from obtaining one?
Many countries are committing human rights' violations and sending arms and troops into many parts of the world. America's biggest export is violence and we would do well to call for an end to all occupations and violence by beginning to end our own.
Let's clean our own filthy house before we criticize someone else for theirs.
Sheehan is offended that Bollinger was impolite to a man that belongs to a regime that murders it's citizens for the capital offense of being gay.
Sheehan is outraged that the mouthpiece for a regime that kills young women for defending themselves against rapists, wasn't given the proper respect.
This, from a woman who lost a son to the same Shia militias that this petty tyrant's regime still arms to kill other American mother's sons.
Update: Related.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
11:12 PM
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1
wow! that is some amazingly psychotic rant from Sheehan. I am very surprised that anyone out of high school without a behavior disorder could even give her a shred of credibility. What a hate-filled diatribe.
Posted by: iconoclast at September 26, 2007 12:32 AM (TzLpv)
2
"...biggest export is violence..."
Of course they support her statements. But she just locked herself out of a bunch of Hollywood endorsements. Nobody exports violence like Hollywood.
Posted by: Joan of Argghh! at September 26, 2007 07:00 AM (8F+iI)
3
It absolutely sickens me that I agree, in part, with Lunatic Cindy. I agree that Bollinger was rude. In fact, he was tacky. If you truly want to call someone names, then go onto DailyKos. But Bollinger's behavior, with no doubt in my mind, was meant to appease everyone who'd objected to Ami-de-jihad's invitation. That's what he thinks dialog's about? If you feel so repulsed by someone, you don't invite them into your house.
Furthermore, I thought it was a pot-kettle moment when Bollinger called Ami-de-jihad 'a pretty dictator" who was "ignorant."
Posted by: Lauren at September 26, 2007 07:14 AM (rcjXi)
4
I also hold Cindy's opinion, in part. That part is Bollinger's incivility at the forum with his little CYA diatribe touted as a forceful and reasoned apologetic for the invitation. Pelley's interview couched as it is in news gathering, on the other hand, is, and should be, expected under the circumstances, and not as we've come to expect -- the softball glamour show often accorded heads of state.
I do wonder if, in addition to Bollinger's incivility, this unreasoned lack of foresight on his part will come back to haunt Columbia University. Forum's of this nature have natural forms. An introduction of the guest. Sometimes the introduction has cautions, if a raucous nature is anticipated due to some controversial issue. To this point I have no problem with Bollinger. But his rant and insult to Amadinnerjacket, while not inaccurate, was neither invested in Bollinger's position as moderator and/or host nor his responsibility as explanation for the invitation. As such, it devalued the concept of free speech in a civilized world and put Columbia's imprimatur on accosting guests.
I wonder how many future invitations from Columbia to other world leaders or notables, who happen to have controversy following them, will be turned down because of this new behavior believed to be appropriate by the President of this otherwise prestigious school. And how many lessors than the President will believe these manner of introductions are both acceptable, appropriate and in keeping with their own idea of free speech.
As Lauren commented, if one is repulsed by someone, don't invite him into your home.
Posted by: Dusty at September 26, 2007 11:50 AM (1Lzs1)
5
Trackbacked by The Thunder Run - Web Reconnaissance for 09/26/2007
A short recon of what’s out there that might draw your attention, updated throughout the day...so check back often.
Posted by: David M at September 26, 2007 12:16 PM (gIAM9)
6
Appears Cindy's been eatin' the kitty litter again, instead of the Meow Mix.
Posted by: mockinbird at September 26, 2007 12:45 PM (k2eoW)
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I object to Bollinger's haircut.
Posted by: Bo Steele at September 26, 2007 05:51 PM (kgfv1)
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[Bo Steele at September 26, 2007 05:51 PM]
Yeah, that too. LOL
Posted by: Dusty at September 26, 2007 06:34 PM (1Lzs1)
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I cannot help but to notice how everybody trounces Sheehan because it is the easy and cool Republican thing to do, but not a single comment about Willie? If your child got killed, I'd like to see everybody on this blog suck it up for team Bush without an ounce of protest. Would you? Suck it up? Not so cool to make fun of Willie Nelson though. We just can't stand the idea that this cowboy aint country cool? Maybe, being a cowboy means you go against the grain, man or woman. You can wear a hat, drive a truck on a ranch, and clear some brush, but that don't make you a cowboy.
Posted by: john bryan at September 26, 2007 07:00 PM (v9dwy)
10
John, what has Willie done recently?
Sheehan is running for Congress. Is Willie?
Posted by: C-C-G at September 26, 2007 08:52 PM (sOYAM)
11
I cannot help but to notice how everybody trounces Sheehan because it is the easy and cool Republican thing to do, but not a single comment about Willie?
I think cindy gets trounced everywhere because she is such and ignorant and nutty witch who never shuts up, hence plenty of stupid comments to jump on her for.
In terms of Willie, I think you must have not looked very hard, I'll help you out.
Willie is an silly old dweeb, a crap musician, a fake cowboy and he probably wears depends.
Posted by: i hate Willie at September 26, 2007 09:14 PM (2wI6h)
12
Willie also supported Kucinich's presidential bid in 2004.
Not all cowboys are Republicans, ya know. Stereotypes are a symptom of faulty thinking.
Posted by: C-C-G at September 26, 2007 09:19 PM (sOYAM)
13
Frankly, I think Bollinger did everything ass backward from start to finish. If you're going to host a speaker, host him. If you want to host an actual dialogue, then either decline to let the speaker vet the questions he'll be asked and actively moderate the Q&A or host a two speaker program. Being insulted by his host is every bit as valuable to Ahmadinejad for propaganda purposes as the fact that he was invited in the first place, so Bollinger gets no points from me on that score.
Posted by: JM Hanes at September 26, 2007 09:59 PM (bKtAF)
14
Heck, if Bollinger wanted to really challenge Ahmadinnerjacket, he should have invited him to a debate... say, against Joe Lieberman, if ya don't wanna invite a Republican.
I think I'd be willing to pay money (not a great deal, mind you) to see a Lieberman-Ahmadinnerjacket debate, so long as the rules weren't too slanted in one direction or the other.
Of course, Ahmadinnerjacket never would have accepted.
Posted by: C-C-G at September 26, 2007 10:18 PM (sOYAM)
15
Being insulted by his host is every bit as valuable to Ahmadinejad for propaganda purposes..
Which of course is why the Iranian media embargoed Bollinger's remarks, right?
Posted by: Purple Avenger at September 27, 2007 02:44 AM (iuG/e)
16
I hate Willie,
Willie is in fact dweebish, not a have bad guitarist, horrific singer, pretty good songwriter and story teller, but certainly you could call him a Cowboy. He played Uncle Jessie on Dukes of Hazzard for crying out loud!
Posted by: john bryan at September 27, 2007 07:08 AM (v9dwy)
17
Well, I'm disappointed in Willie Nelson, but I don't hate him. I learned a long time ago to separate my appreciation for an artist's work from the artist himself or herself. On occasion I still play Joan Baez songs too.
Posted by: huxley at September 27, 2007 11:14 AM (7bsOG)
18
Hmmm...let me try this again (apologies for the potential double post) Actually, I fully support Cindy's bid against Pelosi. I believe a win by Cindy - IN A PRIMARY - beating the FIRST FEMALE Speaker of the House would be a hoot and one hell of a slap in the face for the Dims. I truly don't believe the San Francisco area would then elect Cindy to the House. This is a win-win in my opinion. Get rid of an idiot with a freak and then pick up someone who MUST be more traditional in the general election.
On the subject of Willie - he "ain't" no cowboy. He plays at being one. I think I've got more cred on that statement than most even though I am definitely not a cowboy. I live in Wyoming (yes, home to Darth Dick

- nice guy by the way) and have helped local ranchers at their branding and roundups many times. Gee, actual cowboy stuff...wonder how many brandings Willie has worked?
And, for full disclosure, I am a registered Independent in a state where politicos generally only differ between a D, R, or L at the end of their names.
Posted by: Mark at September 27, 2007 12:43 PM (4od5C)
19
Cindy should read the two articles I linked here, and think. If it is possible.
http://coldfury.com/index.php/?p=8510#respond
Posted by: Mikey NTH at September 27, 2007 06:26 PM (kAnhF)
20
Willie lately has sorta come out of the closet lately, so I take that into consideration when he does something other than shut up and sing.
Posted by: Banjo at September 27, 2007 06:39 PM (1DQ52)
21
Willie has sorta come out of the closet lately, so I take that into consideration when he does something other than shut up and sing.
Posted by: Banjo at September 27, 2007 06:39 PM (1DQ52)
22
Mark, I gotta disagree.
As someone who grew up an hour's drive south of San Francisco, it's my considered opinion that San Franciscans would elect Stalin if they could.
Posted by: C-C-G at September 27, 2007 09:24 PM (sOYAM)
23
CCG,
You may indeed be correct on the SF desire for a Stalin type. However, correct me if I am wrong, was Stalin NOT MORE conservative than CS or NP? This does not mean I advocate for SF to elect a communist in the vein of Stalin, but the benefits may just outweigh the damages. (Yes, read that as the ends justify the means - along with the appropriate level of sarcasm
If SF elected a Stalinist to the US house, SF would lose even more credibility (is this possible?) with mainstream America. NP's congressional district would lose significant power/influence within the House and national politics in general. Left leaning politicians (most notably with the Dims) would have to make the choice between supporting the SF Rep or distancing themselves. Either choice leads to a diminishment of the left. In the first case, those leftists who support the SF Rep then openly declare their support for Marxism... etc. In the second, the SF district becomes ostracised and whatever influence the position held is lost for the forseable future.
Of course, this analysis assumes several things, a few of which are:
1) Mainstream America (MA) knows who Stalin was and what he did.
2) The MSM is not able to alter MA's perception of such a Stalinist.
3) Left politicos, in general, aren't themselves Stalinist/Marxist/Communist.
4) Socialism is identified by MA as Communist-lite.
In the end, I must bow to your personal knowledge of the area and the people. I'm just a poor conservative non-cowboy physicist/mathematician come auditor living in fly-over country that has absolutely no measureable influence on a national scale

(VP's excluded, of course)
Posted by: Mark at September 28, 2007 10:19 AM (4od5C)
24
Mark, you assume that lefties are good at long-range planning. Unfortunately, history indicates otherwise.
By the way, as a radio geek (amateur radio, Amateur Extra class license), may I ask what sort of physics ya work with?
Posted by: C-C-G at September 28, 2007 07:26 PM (sOYAM)
25
Well, gee-whiz! Thanks for putting that iceberg right there in front of my ship!
Amature, unfortunately. Very hard to get a job in physics in Wyoming unless you are teaching it. Unfortunately, I would probably kill high-school students and I don't have the PHD to do college. Hence, I spread hate and discontent throughout the state in my current profession

Posted by: Mark at September 29, 2007 01:32 AM (P8ylB)
26
Sheesh! It's late...
'Amature' = Amateur
Posted by: Mark at September 29, 2007 01:40 AM (P8ylB)
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"Iraqi Civil War Averted?" Page A15 It Is
I suppose that Karen DeYoung's story could have been buried deeper in the Washington Post, but it would take some effort:
Civil war has been averted in Iraq and Iranian intervention there has "ceased to exist," Iraqi Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki said yesterday.
"I can't say there is a picture of roses and flowers in Iraq," Maliki told the Council on Foreign Relations in New York. "However, I can say that the greatest victory, of which I am proud . . . is stopping the explosion of a sectarian war." That possibility, he said, "is now far away."
While political reconciliation is not yet complete, he said, progress is being made. "Reconciliation is not a decision that can be made, but a process that takes continuous efforts and also needs strategic patience," Maliki said.
He said cabinet ministers who have left his government in protest will be replaced, and he expressed confidence that the Iraqi parliament will pass legislation that he, the Bush administration and Congress have demanded.
Maliki, who will speak to the U.N. General Assembly tomorrow, deftly dodged questions about last week's incident in which employees of Blackwater, a private U.S. security firm, allegedly killed 11 Iraqi civilians. While "initial signs" are that "there was some wrongdoing from Blackwater," he said, he will await the results of a U.S.-Iraqi investigation. He dismissed a statement by the interior minister in Baghdad that Blackwater will be banned from Iraq, saying the positions of the ministry and his office are "the same."
Iraqi security forces, Maliki said, are increasingly capable of operating without U.S. support. But he agreed with the Bush administration that an early U.S. withdrawal would be unwise.
Iraq's political leadership, he said through an interpreter, "wants the process of withdrawing troops to happen [simultaneously with] the process of rebuilding Iraqi Security Forces so that they can take responsibility." No one, he said, "wants to risk losing all the achievements" they have made.
Whether or not you agree with al-Maliki's assessment (and there is plenty of room to doubt his pronouncements from both the right and the left), you would think that the Iraqi Prime Minister's statements that the threat of a full-on sectarian war " had ceased to exist" along with Iran's involvement in meddling in Iraq, would be page A1 material.
After all, American politics, foreign and domestic, are being driven by the actions and reactions of Democratic and Republican politicians to news in Iraq.
You might think that a strong claim of positive news--and there is no way to say this is anything other than that sort of claim--would be wildly trumpeted by the
Post, if for no other reason than to generate ad revenue and hits that would come from such a controversial claim.
The current
WashingtonPost.com home page instead features what leading stories?
Sanctions against a country the newspaper
had to rename because most readers would not know what it was otherwise, the announcement that the Supreme Court would examine a death penalty case, and that the UAW hopes for a quick resolution to the strike they called for.
Claiming that the sectarian war in Iraq has "ceased to exist?"
Page A15.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
02:20 PM
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NPR highlighted the bombing deaths of 30 or so at a Sunni Shiite reconcilliation meeting. Nobody thought to comment on the fact the THE SUNNIs AND SHIITES ARE ATTEMPTING TO RECONCILE. That subtle point seems to have been missed by those folks as they cover the Iraqi slide into civil war..
Posted by: Marcus at September 25, 2007 03:31 PM (xkwTe)
2
Hi Bob, nitpick - the US government doesn't recognise the name-change of Burma, hence the US newspapers don't either.
Agreed this claim should be front page, although I no more believe it than A-jad's claims of a gay-free nation.
Regards, C
Posted by: Cernig at September 25, 2007 05:14 PM (DzWhl)
3
Cernig, you've got sort of a point.
CNN and the New York Times, obviously not U.S. news sources, refer to the country in question as Myanmar. ;-)
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at September 25, 2007 06:29 PM (HcgFD)
4
Knowing the NY Times, I am surprised they printed it at all.
Posted by: C-C-G at September 25, 2007 07:14 PM (sOYAM)
5
I must admit I read this blog on a regular basis as you well know CY and find it informative and entertaining, but may I make the constructive comment that it is time to lay off the liberal-media throwing the war theme, just for a couple days? You write a story and make your conclusion and move ahead. Otherwise, you discredit yourself and earn a reputation as being the exact thing you critique, a political extremists who goes too far. By now, I know what Beauchamp best likes for breakfast and his favorite color. I am not saying there aren't leftist out there distorting the truth wrongfully, but that is expected on both sides of the political spectrum no matter what time we live in. You learn to take in both sides and assess the truth somewhere in the middle.
Posted by: John Bryan at September 25, 2007 08:16 PM (v9dwy)
6
John, I suggest reading this post once more. I'm not making a "evil liberal media" post here, but one asking why a story containing such good potential media fodder and a potential to generate traffic, buzz, and ad revenue got buried near the back of the section.
I'm questioning an editorial/business decision of burying this when their featured content is stale. I carefully avoided any left/right here, and instead merely pointed out "there is plenty of room to doubt his pronouncements from both the right and the left."
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at September 25, 2007 08:43 PM (HcgFD)
7
it is time to lay off the liberal-media throwing the war theme, just for a couple days
Why? So they can continue to do so in a frictionless environment?
Posted by: Purple Avenger at September 25, 2007 09:13 PM (iuG/e)
8
Ain't it amazing how John takes a story about the NY Times and immediately assumes that you're attacking the lefties, CY?
That in itself is illustrative of how the NY Times is viewed, methinks.
Posted by: C-C-G at September 25, 2007 09:24 PM (sOYAM)
9
"I'm not making a "evil liberal media" post here, but one asking why a story containing such good potential media fodder and a potential to generate traffic, buzz, and ad revenue got buried near the back of the section."
Hopeful pronouncements by Maliki don't seem to carry too much water anymore, as the Washington Post editors have come to realize. Consider his statement from last November:
“I can say that Iraqi forces will be ready, fully ready to receive this command and to command its own forces, and I can tell you that by next June our forces will be ready,” al-Maliki said in an interview with ABC News.
Um, yeah right.
Posted by: arbotreeist at September 25, 2007 11:28 PM (N8M1W)
10
arbotreeist, you may have noticed above that Cernig of Newshoggers, hardly a neocon by any stretch of the imagination and a pretty thoughtful blogger, also recognizes this story is an "A1" or "front page" claim. If you're willing to be honest, you'd also admit this.
Does Maliki's credibility matter here?
Yes.
It is precisely his dubious credibility and the potential for controversy that helps make this story ripe for a front page presentation.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at September 25, 2007 11:59 PM (HcgFD)
11
>Agreed this claim should be front page, although I no more believe it than A-jad's claims of a gay-free nation.
Hey, it's not that there are any gay Iranians.... It's just that Iranians naturally have a wide stance when they're being executed.
Posted by: Korla Pundit at September 26, 2007 06:42 AM (0Jnzc)
12
> Hopeful pronouncements by Maliki don't seem to carry too much water anymore, as the Washington Post editors have come to realize.
So if he had instead come out saying that "Civil war in Iraq is still possible," the Washington Post would have still buried it?
Come on.
Posted by: Korla Pundit at September 26, 2007 06:44 AM (0Jnzc)
13
An interesting point for those bashing the Yankee for bashing the New York Times: the post was about the *Washington Post*.
Posted by: Dr. Ellen at September 26, 2007 06:57 AM (ABdK9)
14
Personally, I really enjoy watchdogging the press. All those J-school majors who want to 'change the world' must be disappointed that they don't have carte blanche anymore. I'd say that this is 25% of my enjoyment of reading the internet.
My most recent example was reading Sunday's paper in my town. In the front section, two stories about the changing racial demographic make up of two major cities (yawn) and the amazing story of the peruvian meteorite (?) that sickened a bunch of Peruvians. The latter had been reported on the internet 4 days before.
As for Maliki's credibility, I wasn't aware that credibility was a determiner of newsworthyness. That would have wiped Ahmedninijad out of the headlines entirely.
Posted by: woof at September 26, 2007 07:11 AM (09ntO)
15
Not only did this not make front page news, but the very day after Ahmanuttajob did his thing at Columbia U., the NYT covered any number of ho-hum stories on the front page of Tuesday's paper but nary a word or pic on the biggest controversy of Monday (nationally and internationally). Talk about elephants in the room.
We're a lot smarter than the WaPo and NYT thinks or wants us to be.
Posted by: Peg C. at September 26, 2007 07:12 AM (S0aeA)
16
Isn't this the same Al-Maliki that told us the Iraqi Army would be fully independent by 2007?
And his assessment is hardly what you'd call independent or objective.
What I don't understand is how you can keep moving the goalposts. It's like the past never happened. 6 months ago it was all about the 18 benchmarks - almost none of which were met. But somehow we're supposed to get excited because the leader of our client state claims the threat of civil war has ceased to exist, which is patently ridiculous when you consider all the sectarian violence that continues to occur.
And when they finally do get around to dividing the oil (who gets oil-rich Kirkuk?? the Kurds? The Shia?), that's when the threat of civil war really, REALLY looms large. So let's not all "Mission Accomplished" about this until the dust settles. There is no way that this comment belonged on p. 1.
Posted by: chuck at September 26, 2007 08:00 AM (oYsv1)
17
Ooops - meant to say "get all 'Mission Accomplished' - but you know what I mean.

Posted by: chuck at September 26, 2007 08:01 AM (oYsv1)
18
Sectarian violence (which is dramatically down) > civil war.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_war#International_Definition
Posted by: red at September 26, 2007 08:28 AM (09ntO)
19
"Sanctions against a country the newspaper had to rename because most readers would not know what it was"
Uh... what? Oh... you'd rather call it what the dictator calls it.
Authoritarian impulses will do that to you...
Posted by: scarshapedstar at September 26, 2007 08:43 AM (UrMkD)
20
Chuck, you wanna talk about moving goalposts? Okaaaaay...
What about all those Dems who, not all that long ago, were telling everyone that would listen that Bush should listen to the generals, and send more troops?
Well, he did, and he did. And things are turning around. And now the Dems are claiming that one of the generals that they wanted Bush to listen to is cooking the books.
Talk about moving goalposts...
Posted by: C-C-G at September 26, 2007 09:11 AM (sOYAM)
21
re: "had to rename the country so readers would know what it was"...
To be fair, President Bush was referring to Myanmar as "Burma" in his speeches lately, including the one at the UN. I believe I read its in response to the fact that the military junta renamed the country when they took power, therefore its not legit.
Posted by: docweasel at September 26, 2007 09:23 AM (ACIZZ)
22
The Post prints all sorts of stories and photos from Reuters and AP, and neither of those has any credibility whatsoever. So obviously, that doesn't explain squat. It's just one in a long procession of buried positive stories.
Posted by: Korla Pundit at September 26, 2007 09:27 AM (FHlAi)
23
I would think that the clear stupidity or propaganda the Maliki comments represent would be a particularly good reason to bury them. They're obviously bull (particularly given the new assassination campaign), either intentionally or unintentionally, so why should they receive an A1 platform?
Posted by: Dan at September 26, 2007 10:04 AM (1TEB/)
24
Wait - how could a civil war be averted when so many declared there already was one? Were they just hoping for one?
Posted by: bandit at September 26, 2007 10:09 AM (nX3lF)
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What page would Maliki's comments have been on if he had said Iraq was in an unwinnable civil war?
He is either credible or not.
If you bury comments you disagree with and promote comments you agree with then you are not objective.
Posted by: Norm at September 26, 2007 10:28 AM (aV+yn)
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Meanwhile, Colin Powell tells the Chamber of Commerce in Hershey that the surge isn't working.
http://www.pennlive.com/politics/article177841.ece
Posted by: Bill at September 26, 2007 10:37 AM (y12tT)
27
I'll have to pile on with the "renaming" comment. The only ones who renamed Burma were the murderous thugs who took it over in a coup. Official US policy has always been to continue to call the country "Burma." This has also consistently been the policy of the WaPo, the BBC, the British Government, and many, many other organizations. The Burmese dissidents, with whom we should continue to pledge solidarity, have always, and continue to, refer to their nation as Burma, ignoring the ridiculous and tribalist renaming done by the junta, apparently in a failed attempt to win popular nationalist support.
A few years ago, the Minneapolis Star-Tribune ridiculed Bush's reference to "Burma," in a State of the Union Address, trying to cite this as another "Bush is so stupid" moment. (As if Bush, or any president, ever writes his own SOTU Address, or delivers a single line that hasn't been carefully vetted by the departments of Defense, State, and whatever else.) I wrote them a letter, pointing out their error; I don't want to be a hypocrite, so I have to point out yours, as well.
But let me hasten to add, otherwise, I agree with the main point of your post!
Posted by: notropis at September 26, 2007 02:20 PM (cP1DU)
28
Actually, the Post is clearly showing its pro-Bush and pro-war bias by cleverly burying the story; if it were front-page news, people might realize that the Iraqi PM is a blind moron and support for the war would evaporate.
Damn conservative bias of the Post!
Posted by: LostSailor at September 26, 2007 03:08 PM (D8XQ+)
29
"What about all those Dems who, not all that long ago, were telling everyone that would listen that Bush should listen to the generals, and send more troops?"
Well, when you remove the generals that disagree with your policies (Abzaid and Casey had serious doubts about the surge) and replace them with a toady like Petraeus (see Admiral Fallon's comments about him) and Odierno I wouldn't exactly call that listening to the generals.
Posted by: arbotreeist at September 26, 2007 06:32 PM (N8M1W)
30
Arbotreeist, if General Petraeus is such a toady, why did the Senate, including Senators Clinton, Obama, Edwards, and Kerry, vote to confirm him?
Toadyism isn't something that appears overnight, by the way, so please don't waste bandwidth with the "he wasn't a toady when they confirmed him" line. The man has served his nation for all of his adult life, surely evidence of toadyism would be prevalent by the time he got to his confirmation hearings.
Now, if you're gonna claim that it was there, well, then you're saying that the above-named Senators were uninformed about a man they were voting on, and that makes them look darned foolish.
So, you've just joined your fellow lefties in being hoist by your own petard. Congratulations, you get a DailyKos secret decoder ring!
Posted by: C-C-G at September 26, 2007 08:58 PM (sOYAM)
31
"After all, American politics, foreign and domestic, are being driven by the actions and reactions of Democratic and Republican politicians to news in Iraq."
There's your mistake. Events on the ground stopped influencing influential Democratic politicians a long time ago, and until Baker/Hamilton put the political screws to Bush, I'm not so sure they were a defining factor for the Prez either. When actually following the troops day to day here at home (think WWII maps & flag pins) is the exception, not the rule, the news is just more or less conveniently spinnable material. The sectarian choas of '06, and the beatable civil war drum it supplied were like a freebie for the al-Qaeda-in-Iraq denyers. Civil war is now just as irrelevant as the previous beatification of Shinseki, and the formerly critical security based goalposts.
The only thing that's important on the political anti-war left is what feeds the mantra of preemptive failure. It's like a secular political version of predestination: What we've done has already failed, what we're doing now has already failed, and whatever we might do has already failed. What was once called self-fulfiiling prophecy has been recast as progressive realism, but it's still a faith based proposition. Indeed, the prophecy has already been fulfilled, Bush has already failed, and any assertion which conflicts with that self-evident, unalterable truth is just a lie that lying liars tell. General Betrayus had already lied before he opened his mouth; where outcomes have been ordained, there can be no optimists, only false prophets like Maliki.
Cynics always have the upper hand when it comes to predicting failure and creating I-told-you-so opportunities for themselves. There's a reason questions like "So, just how long are you willing to stay in Iraq?" proliferate. It's emblematic of a sublimely easy technique for adding notches to your ideological belt which Democrats have honed to near perfection: Demand unknowable guestimates on timing from every possible source and collect the most insanely optimistic projections from anybody who's remotely quotable; keep them handy, and you'll never be at a loss if you suddenly find yourself needing to cite a new and different broken "promise" in your litany of defeat. Don't neglect the little stuff. You can work a single, offhanded "cakewalk" for years with no "use by" date in sight.
If you can parlay some guestimates into an array of official benchmarks, you've got it made, because arbitrarily imposed timelines are virtually guaranteed to produce useful unmet objectives of one kind or another. The genius in that approach is that you can claim you're just looking to agree on a set of metrics for assessment and then ask for a progress report at the earliest negotiable date. You can even call it a preliminary report if you need to, because what it's called won't matter any more than what's in it. Once you've got that list, it's pass/fail, not progress, all the way the way home; you can beat almost any odds when you can stamp FAILED on everything from 0 to 99%.
The battle against cynicism, alas, is not just the hardest one to win, it's also the toughest on morale because you have to fight it in yourself, not just the other guy, as you go. It's not just politicians who seem to have lost the internal contest early on. Once that happens, it becomes increasingly difficult, psychologically, to acknowledge even the possibility that anyone who opposes you could actually be an idealist, because we like to think that our cynicism is the logical, inevitable, response to the circumstances we face, not a personal failing.
Posted by: JM Hanes at September 26, 2007 09:31 PM (bKtAF)
32
JM, I like your style. Bravo!
Posted by: C-C-G at September 26, 2007 10:21 PM (sOYAM)
33
Thanks for the encouraging word C-C-G!
arbotreeist:
"Hopeful pronouncements by Maliki don't seem to carry too much water anymore, as the Washington Post editors have come to realize."
I think it's just as likely that a lot of the MSM will to pick up things like Grand Ayatollah Sistani breaking his notable silence to "appeal to Iraqi’s to 'forget their divisions'" and conveniently leave out Part Deux, where he says, a la Maliki, “Be as a great mountain – he added – immoveable before the attempts of some media to attack our unity, exaggerating the number of the victims and speaking of confessional war”.Interestingly, the Iranian press apparently inclines in the reverse. {both links courtesy of Gateway Pundit]
Posted by: JM Hanes at September 27, 2007 01:54 AM (bKtAF)
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Another "Beauchamp-related" Vacancy at The New Republic
The first known departure related to the Scott Thomas Beauchamp scandal was assistant to the publisher Robert McGhee, who was let go by the New Republic when he leaked TNR's dirty laundry.
A screen capture posted on mediabistro.com's
FishbowlDC seems to indicate that
TNR fact-checker and Beauchamp's wife Elspeth Reeve is also no longer with the beleaguered magazine.
Update: Patrick Gavin, who
posted the Facebook entry noting that Reeve was no longer at
The New Republic, has followed up on his original post, noting that Reeve has indeed left the magazine, but:
...not for any sinister reasons. Her year-long internship had expired and she is currently working as a research assistant for Mike Grunwald.
Reeve's first published story for
TNR, "
Patriot Act," was published May 3, 2006. Reeve was
still on the Masthead in July of 2007, and according to Robert McGee, she was still employed at
The New Republic when he was fired July 26 for revealing her marriage to Beauchamp, more than 14 months later.
The New Republic is apparently no better at keeping time than they are checking facts.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
10:25 AM
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1
Her name is gone from the Masthead:
http://www.tnr.com/masthead.mhtml
Her name used to be in the middle at Reporter-Researchers.
Posted by: Dusty at September 25, 2007 11:45 AM (1Lzs1)
2
TNR sends her name down the memory hole.
Posted by: Ryan Frank at September 25, 2007 04:01 PM (dhMDh)
3
Are we sure that she just didn't get divorced from Scott Beauchamp, and change her name from "I'm-with-stupid-Reeves"?
Posted by: Lokki at September 25, 2007 04:07 PM (wSBsc)
4
Very interesting. "Frank doesn't want to tell Ellie that her husband's a liar." comes to mind.
There's no "h" in McGee, BTW.
Posted by: Pablo at September 25, 2007 05:45 PM (yTndK)
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Ahem, there's no "h" in my name.
Posted by: Robert McGee at September 25, 2007 05:50 PM (Vgxhz)
6
Whoops! Thanks for pointing that out, Pablo.
Posted by: Robert "yes, the" McGee at September 25, 2007 05:51 PM (Vgxhz)
7
So you guys can fact-check after all... I'm flabbergasted.
Posted by: Stewed Hamm at September 26, 2007 12:05 AM (iIUzz)
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If you'd had an editor, that "h" would never have appeared. How typical of you irresponsible bloggers!
Posted by: K T Cat at September 26, 2007 07:08 AM (25tTh)
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"Elspeth Reeve does not work at TNR. Elspeth Reeve has never worked at TNR."
His work for the day well done, Winston Smith sucked down a glass of Victory gin.
Posted by: Patrick Carroll at September 26, 2007 08:26 AM (l27kW)
10
She had softly and suddenly vanished away -
For the Snark was a Beauchamp, you see!
Posted by: Eric Wilner at September 26, 2007 08:55 AM (FBnz8)
11
Nice Instalink, CY. I'd question the heads rolling route, though.
Ellie, and Scott, BTW, separately or together, have more than enough for a tell-all book, plus a bunch of interviews. This departure may have been by choice.
We may find out all that went on in the hallways and offices of TNR on this, yet.
Posted by: Dusty at September 26, 2007 10:36 AM (1Lzs1)
12
Hmmm.
A "tell all book"??
Other than political maniacs who would care? Who would know? Hell. Who out there actually knows what TNR or The New Republic *is*? And how would they publicize it to a population that doesn't even care now?
"Well Scott Beauchamp was a bit of an asshat so he and his wife, who helped him pass off some idiotic nonsense as if it were true, are now writing a book and effectively passing a hat..."
Would that pique your interest? Frankly I've kept up with this and it would still bore the hell out of me.
Posted by: memomachine at September 26, 2007 12:11 PM (3pvQO)
13
Any book written by Beauchamp and Reeve would have to be classified as fiction. Beauchamp has already demonstrated his preference for "fake-but-accurate" storytelling, and Reeve was a "fact-checker" who evidently would not recognize an actual fact if it bit her on the ass. Why would anyone believe a single word written by either of them?
Posted by: Pat at September 26, 2007 12:48 PM (c6S8U)
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Memomachine and Pat, you both miss the point. There is a market for it. It would sell. Not only owuld it sell, if done well (meaning having lots of juicy bits and lots of outrageous claims as well as good marketing of it) it's possible to keep it in the commented on by many, particularly on the Internet, thus pushing up sales.
That it would sell and they might make some good money is the point. Not whether it's fiction or popular or if anyone believes them. Lastly, I am not recommending it or them, I'm just suggesting what might occur based on sound observation of reality.
Posted by: Dusty at September 26, 2007 04:04 PM (1Lzs1)
15
This is pretty far fetched, but maybe Scott's warrior sperm knocked her up all the way from Iraq. You know how crazy war makes a man. Scott wrote about it and all.
Posted by: daleyrocks at September 26, 2007 05:03 PM (0pZel)
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For the Snark was a Beauchamp, you see!
Eric Wilner gets my vote for winner of the thread! Bravo, sir.
Posted by: Mary in LA at September 26, 2007 06:57 PM (JYxmy)
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You can only sell a book, IF you can find a publisher. That's the rub.
Posted by: Carol Herman at September 26, 2007 10:01 PM (/iqmM)
18
Carol, if Al Franken can find someone to publish him, Beauchamp can.
Posted by: C-C-G at September 26, 2007 10:22 PM (sOYAM)
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September 24, 2007
Illegitimate Sniping
Imagine, for a moment, that you are an Iraqi returning from a fellow tribesman's home in the afternoon heat. To gain some shade, you step off the main road and decide to take a shortcut down a path through a grove of trees. Before you, on the path, is a spool of wire often used by insurgents in building IEDs. Seeing no one around, you pick it up with the intention of giving it you your brother, a soldier in the Iraqi Army...
Imagine, for a moment, that you are a member of the Islamic State of Iraq. You wear no uniform, no insignia that identifies you as anything other than a civilian. Late to a meeting with cell members at a nearby safehouse, you step off the main road to take a shortcut down a path through a grove of trees. Before you, on the path, is a spool of wire often used by your fellow insurgents in building IEDs. Seeing no one around, and wondering if one of your fellow cell members may have use for it, you warily pick it up with the intention of giving it to you cell's bomb builder...
Imagine, for a moment, that you are a U.S. Army sniper in a concealed position a hundred meters away, watching these scenarios play out. Can you cipher their intentions and determine which man is the insurgent, and which is the civilian, based merely upon the decision to pick up the spool of wire?
If a
Washington Post story this morning is correct, that is precisely the determination that an elite sniper platoon was asked to make as part of a classified baiting program hoping to identify and eliminate insurgents in one area of Iraq.
"Baiting is putting an object out there that we know they will use, with the intention of destroying the enemy," Capt. Matthew P. Didier, the leader of an elite sniper scout platoon attached to the 1st Battalion of the 501st Infantry Regiment, said in a sworn statement. "Basically, we would put an item out there and watch it. If someone found the item, picked it up and attempted to leave with the item, we would engage the individual as I saw this as a sign they would use the item against U.S. Forces."
In documents obtained by The Washington Post from family members of the accused soldiers, Didier said members of the U.S. military's Asymmetric Warfare Group visited his unit in January and later passed along ammunition boxes filled with the "drop items" to be used "to disrupt the AIF [Anti-Iraq Forces] attempts at harming Coalition Forces and give us the upper hand in a fight."
Eugene Fidell, president of the National Institute of Military Justice, said such a baiting program should be examined "quite meticulously" because it raises troubling possibilities, such as what happens when civilians pick up the items.
"In a country that is awash in armaments and magazines and implements of war, if every time somebody picked up something that was potentially useful as a weapon, you might as well ask every Iraqi to walk around with a target on his back," Fidell said.
In a country where every household is expected to have small arms for protection, using bait such as small arms, magazines, or ammunition for these small arms would be entirely and unquestioningly unacceptable. It would be far too tempting for civilians to pick up such found implements that they could legally own, use, or sell.
On the other hand, if the unit was using bait items that could only be use by insurgents and terrorists--say, artillery rounds or plastic explosives--then the baiting becomes more targeted and less likely to ensnare innocent civilians. But when the penalty for picking up such objects and attempting to carry them away is a marksman’s bullet, is it acceptable to take that gamble?
The story reported by Josh White and Joshua Partlow, unfortunately, immediately begins to purposefully conflate unlike things almost immediately after raising very legitimate questions about the baiting program.
Citing two soldiers who only revealed the program in revenge for pending disciplinary actions is problematic, as is conflating murder charges pending against soldiers for planting evidence
after a shooting took place with the program of leaving bait to hopefully identify insurgents worth shooting.
It is one thing to shoot someone because they are holding a hand grenade as the approach your position, but quite another to shoot someone coming down the same path and then plant the grenade on their body after the fact. White and Partlow spend the majority of their article blurring the distinctions between the two, while admitting begrudgingly in one sentence on
the second page of the article:
Though it does not appear that the three alleged shootings were specifically part of the classified program, defense attorneys argue that the program may have opened the door to the soldiers' actions because it blurred the legal lines of killing in a complex war zone.
The reporters present the defense team arguments of murder suspects as their "evidence" of a failed program, but it is nothing of the sort.
The men they speak with are on trial for planting weapons on men they've killed, after the fact, to justify a killing that they felt was questionable under their rules of engagement. The baiting program, while a legitimate topic for vigorous debate and legal review in it’s own right, has nothing to do with planting evidence at all.
The "throwaway" gun is a staple of television shows and films going back decades based upon the dishonorable practice of a very few real-life law enforcement officers who planted guns on the bodies of criminals to justify a "bad" or questionable shooting. That this practice also occurs in war zones is unsurprising, if regrettable.
That White and Partlow would be so gullible as to immediately and uncritically swallow defense team arguments that the program is to blame for the alleged criminal acts of their clients planting evidence to justify a shooting is an unconscionable act of criminal advocacy to advance apparent personal biases against a program only tangentially related, if newsworthy in its own right. Put another way, they don’t like the program, and are willing to use the club provided for them by the defense team, without any critical eye towards the merits of the defense, which are few.
The illegitimate sniping in this case clearly doesn't stop with the soldiers, and we deserve better from our professional journalists than this.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
09:30 AM
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1
If the comment section is any indication then the writers are just pandering to their audience. Is it bad journalism? Yes. Does it move print? Yes.
Posted by: Dan Irving at September 24, 2007 10:20 AM (Kw4jM)
2
You mentioned The "throwaway" gun as a staple of television shows and films. The US Army is now famous for the "throwaway shovel" - that's all that's needed to be planted near the body of an Iraqi killed by US soldiers to justify the killing. (As in, he was obviously going to plant an IED after digging a hole with that shovel...)
Posted by: Max at September 24, 2007 10:22 AM (VRb5p)
3
Good post, CY. I've developed some of the points in it for my own post.
Regards, C
Posted by: Cernig at September 24, 2007 10:30 AM (XQKst)
4
My biggest problem with this story is that it is not about the insurgent baiting program but instead is primarily focused on the murder trial of these two soldiers.
The baiting program does raise serious questions and would be the legitimate subject of a story but by making it the lead of a story about this trial the article clearly suggests - whether intentionally or not - that the baiting program has something to do with the murder trial.
This also follows the media stereotype and main story line that soldiers are simple kids who have somehow been tricked into war.
Posted by: Josh at September 24, 2007 12:25 PM (6alVF)
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FYI: Curious and vague post at FishbowlDC (Mediabistro) about Elspeth Reeve (Mrs. Beauchamp) not working at TNR any more.
Posted by: jan at September 24, 2007 04:40 PM (1Ab7z)
6
CY, great article. I love how much insight you have noble and yet effective ROEs. The fact that you drew a line between baiting with AK magazines, and baiting with something like det cord shows that you actually are thinking carefully about this topic.
Max, although the scenario you described with the shovel is wrong, and I don't think that too many people would argue, I've had an American tell me to my face that it's a war crime for US Soldiers to engage anyone that isn't holding a rifle. (to include terrorists digging IED holes, planting IEDs or anti-tank mines, or even triggermen)
I believe that 40% of our population (hardcore liberals), actually want that to be an enforced ROE.
Posted by: brando at September 24, 2007 05:51 PM (rDQC9)
7
I have a real problem with ordinary things with obvious scrap value like wire being used. With the price of copper what it is these days, everyone is going to pick up a roll of wire.
Posted by: Purple Avenger at September 24, 2007 06:02 PM (iuG/e)
8
Ya know, the moment I heard about this story, and that the "revelations" came from two guys facing disciplinary charges, I wondered if the actual source wasn't their lawyers.
And it is.
Posted by: Rob Crawford at September 24, 2007 07:01 PM (byuKK)
9
I thought this story and the information it provided to be a Godsend. I have a 15 years old son and he is determined to join the military. Much of this is adolescent ideation. I may have developed the situation as I have always been a military historian and supporter. But with the Iraq war I have noted that we have had a change in the military. When faced with a aggressive task such as the initial occupation of Iraq, they did great. But just like in Vietnam, when the dust settles and the politicians get involved, they insert this concept of rules of engagement that if followed seems to hamper efforts, place soldiers in harms way and subject normally law-abiding individuals to the worst of our legal process. I am sure that there is more to this story about the trial of these soldiers than we are being told, but the fact that you put a gun in someones hand, put them in a very difficult situation, then subject them to the legal process if they make a mistake or cause an embarrassment to the politicians, that is not the military I want my son to be in. This episode has soured his ambitions.
Posted by: David Caskey at September 25, 2007 08:47 AM (G5i3t)
10
The last time I checked this wasn't a friggen tea
party over there...You have a Captain give his
Sargent the green light,one shot one kill,now they are on trial for murder...They were cleared
by Army CID and an other investagation,that should have been case closed!!!!!Now along comes
the Perfumed Prince Lt.Gen Kerny and says wait one.He has to order some one to sign the papers
because no one in the field would...The one and
the same Gen who tossed a Marine Spec-ops unit
out of Afgahnistan for a supposed 10 mile running shoot out,the reason, Lack of training...They were
all combat vets,not green rookies and there was
no 10 mile running gun battle...Its to the point
where you have a military scared to pull the trigger and that has cost lives and will continue to do so...The only saving grace we have is one less Taliban bomb maker...Marcus Luttrell in
"Lone Survivor" lays it on the line as to how
bad political correctness has become...The point
now is Command doesn't have the troops' back's
and that sure as hell is not a good thing...
Posted by: Bobby.lane at September 25, 2007 09:25 AM (L4HGI)
11
I just picked up on the "we bait targets"!!So WTF
over...A house in Falluja a brand new Russian
Sniper Rifle laying on the floor.Question do you
pick it up???You do there is a damn good chance
it will be the last thing you do... These SOB's
booby trap bodies, blow up kids and were supposed to be Mr clean...Give me a friggen brake...Those
folks need to die.No is no and's and no but's.But
that's just me,I still think there is a place for
Napalm,Flame throwers and Wille Pete.The way this
Country is headed in 30-50 years yall can buy your
little rug and face east 6 times a day as for me
I wont be around to give a S**t...
Posted by: BobbyLane at September 25, 2007 01:06 PM (L4HGI)
12
The MOOOOOSLIMS are coming - who worse than the JOOOOS.
Posted by: r4d20 at September 26, 2007 01:52 PM (tCYT+)
13
r4d20:
Is that a speech, spelling or typing defect you are expressing?
Posted by: davod at September 27, 2007 12:58 PM (llh3A)
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September 23, 2007
Times Admits Pricing Miscue on "Betray Us" Ad
I'm encouraged that the New York Times has decided to explain what happened regarding the below-market pricing they gave MoveOn.Org for the "General Betray Us" advertisement uncovered here.
It is perhaps ironic that I never got fired up as much about this story as have some others (I only touched on it again
here to note my surprise, and
here to note the
Times first explanation).
Reading Hoyt's explanation, my primary thought is relief that this was an apparent mistake (and I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt here considering their eventual transparency on this issue), and hope that they'll be forgiving of the
Times advertising person that sold the ad below market rate.
I can't quite bring myself to be as forgiving of Steph Jespersen, the executive who approved the ad, or of the self-serving argument of publisher "Pinch" Sulzberger, that "If we’re going to err, it’s better to err on the side of more political dialogue. ... Perhaps we did err in this case. If we did, we erred with the intent of giving greater voice to people."
Somehow, that argument seems quite hollow coming from a man who in a previous war, hoped that American soldiers would get shot because "
It's the other guy's country." (h/t
Ed Driscoll)
The saying goes that "a fish rots from the head," so if anyone gets taken to task over this at the
Times, I hope that the senior leadership at the times looks squarely in the mirror.
The cost would not have been a factor if the executives of the
Times had followed their own polices, and declined to run the ad in the first place.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
02:39 PM
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1
Since we're talking about fringe groups going too far -
When will the Republicans denounce the extremist group Values Voters? At the Presidential debate the group held for GOP candidates this week, event organizers invited the Church of God Choir, from Springfield, Ohio, to sing "God Bless America" -- except the lyrics were rewritten. Instead of a song about "the land that I love," and "home sweet home," this version condemns the country, saying we've all turned against God, and that He won't bless us.
Twisting and distorting the words of "God Bless America" is disgusting and an insult to all Americans. The GOP should be ashamed for supporting a fringe group like Values Voters.
Posted by: Other Ed at September 23, 2007 03:51 PM (n3QC8)
2
Yep, Other Ed. Because changing the words to "God Bless America" is directly comparable to undermining the historical political neutrality of the military by referring to American soldiers as "betrayers", and is also being done by a group that encourages desertions from the armed forces and is funded by and allied to groups that advocate the overthrow of the United States by force.
Exactly the same thing. Totally.
Because, y'know, it IS. Right?
Posted by: DaveP. at September 23, 2007 05:03 PM (mjjwA)
3
Who? Values Voters?
I can say that I haven't condemned them because I've never heard of them. And suddenly, Ted Haggard comes to mind.
Posted by: Pablo at September 23, 2007 05:22 PM (yTndK)
4
Oh come on CY!
You’re usually reasonably skeptical when it comes to the NYT. However, after reading this post, I completely disagree with your “let’s give the benefit of the doubt” position.
“Eli Pariser, the executive director of MoveOn.org, told me that his group called The Times on the Friday before Petraeus’s appearance on Capitol Hill and asked for a rush ad in Monday’s paper. He said The Times called back and “told us there was room Monday, and it would cost $65,000.” Pariser said there was no discussion about a standby rate. “We paid this rate before, so we recognized it,” he said. Advertisers who get standby rates aren’t guaranteed what day their ad will appear, only that it will be in the paper within seven days.” is the most telling paragraph from that editorial, and completely out of place…almost as if Rove planted it himself. The ONLY way this “oops, our bad” after-the-fact ploy works is if you believe the statement made by Pariser is a lie.
If you want to go down that road, then a reasonable person asks themselves ‘what would Pariser have to gain by this lie?” Since I can’t come to a reasonable explanation for why he’d lie, I’m going to assume the statement is true.
If this statement is true, then it seems the NYT needs to be investigated by various agencies.
To come back after a week accusations, deflections, and now admitted lies, this editorial is an insult to anyone with an IQ above 10. This is an attempt to take enough responsibility to make the situation go away, which today means none at all. “Mistakes” are merely human, after all. Nothing to see here, move along. These editorial Barbradies are quick to assign the smallest misfunction in government to Bush, but unwilling and unable to accept ANY responsibility for their own company. Some lowly “advertising sales representative” they are willing to throw under the bus and we’re supposed to accept that this rogue “advertising sales representative” works in a vaccum, without supervision. Either scenario, they unintentionally disclose, is ridiculously dysfunctional.
What the NYT did with this editorial is not act of moral courage or any compunction to act decently, but because the consequence was too much to bear. They needed to explain themselves, and the usual suspects ran to hide. Furthermore, would-be customers started demanding the below-market rate, which the NYT couldn’t afford since its circulation is dwindling.
And the ad didn’t just infuriate “conservatives,” it infuriated anyone with common decency. To narrow those upset with the ad to just conservatives is disingenuous.
And by the way, if that price was a “mistake,” why was policy changed to offer the mistake to everyone?
Posted by: Lauren at September 23, 2007 05:58 PM (rcjXi)
5
When did Values Voters say that they had bought the Republican Party and own it?
Cause that is what MoveOn said about the Democratic Party.
Posted by: C-C-G at September 23, 2007 07:15 PM (lo4eE)
6
Having heard a recital of Move On greatest hits (failing to stop the Clinton impeachment, or block
military action in Afghanistan or Iraq, the Bush/
Hitler commercial, et al) It seems theie efforts are counterproductive; to say the least. That doesn't negate the fact that the N. Y. Times coordinated this attack on General Petraeus, on the day of the presentation of his report.
Interesting hat tip; relating to the previous post; re the Blackwater detail and the incident
last week. The Jones Commission reports the high
degree of JAM (Sadr's militia) in the Interior Ministry ranks; and one oftheir goals is to neutralize US diplomatic & military objectives in Iraq. one of the members of the infamous Jones Commission reference in the previous post is John Timoney, the former Kroll consultant, who's arguing for the introduction of automatic weapons as part of the Miami police department's arsenal.
Posted by: narciso at September 23, 2007 08:35 PM (AiJXe)
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September 21, 2007
Blackwatered Down
The New York Times has a very informative article up this morning by Sabrina Tavernise and James Glanz about the Blackwater/Nisour Sqaure shooting. The article focuses on the Iraqi government claim that Blackwater security contractors opened fire unprovoked on Iraqi civilians.
Iraq’s Ministry of Interior has concluded that employees of a private American security firm fired an unprovoked barrage in the shooting last Sunday in which at least eight Iraqis were killed and is proposing a radical reshaping of the way American diplomats and contractors here are protected.
In the first comprehensive account of the day’s events, the ministry said that security guards for Blackwater USA, a company that guards all senior American diplomats here, fired on Iraqis in their cars in midday traffic.
The document concludes that the dozens of foreign security companies here should be replaced by Iraqi companies, and that a law that has given the companies immunity for years be scrapped.
Four days after the shooting, American officials said they were still preparing their own forensic analysis of what happened in Nisour Square. They have repeatedly declined to give any details before their work is finished.
Privately, those officials have warned against drawing conclusions before American investigators have finished interviewing the Blackwater guards. In the Interior Ministry account — made available to The New York Times on Thursday — Iraqi investigators interviewed many witnesses but relied on the testimony of the people they considered to be the four most credible.
The account says that as soon as the guards took positions in four locations in the square, they began shooting south, killing a driver who had failed to heed a traffic policeman’s call to stop.
“The Blackwater company is considered 100 percent guilty through this investigation,” the report concludes.
The version of events told by Blackwater employees, some Iraqi eyewitnesses, and even the early Interior Ministry accounts, relays
an entirely different story:
The ministry said the incident began around midday, when a convoy of sport utility vehicles came under fire from unidentified gunmen in the square. The men in the SUVs, described by witnesses as Westerners, returned fire, the ministry said.
Blackwater's employees were protecting a U.S. official when they were hit by "a large explosive device, then repeated small-arms fire -- and to the point where it disabled one of the vehicles, and the vehicle had to be towed out of the firefight," said Marty Strong, vice president of Blackwater USA.
A senior industry source said Blackwater guards had escorted a State Department group to a meeting with U.S. Agency for International Development officials in Mansour before the shootings.
A car bomb went off about 80 feet (25 meters) from the meeting site and the contractors started evacuating the State Department officials, he said. A State Department report on the attack said the convoy came under fire from an estimated eight to 10 people, some in Iraqi police uniforms.
The guards called for backup, at one point finding their escape route blocked by an Iraqi quick-reaction force that pointed heavy machine guns at one vehicle in the convoy. A U.S. Army force, backed by air cover, arrived about half an hour later to escort the convoy back to the Green Zone, the report states.
A team from another security company passed through the area shortly after the street battle.
"Our people saw a couple of cars destroyed," Carter Andress, CEO of American-Iraqi Solutions Groups, told CNN on Monday. "Dead bodies, wounded people being evacuated. The U.S. military had moved in and secured the area. It was not a good scene."
You'll note that the Interior Ministry's current claim has quietly dropped all mention of the convoy coming under fire, and of Blackwater employees returning fire instead of instigating it.
Nor does the version of events carried in the
Times account for the more than one dozen other people killed or wounded in the square, and focuses on one family, in one car. A week into this story, we are no closer to any real answers about how the events transpired, who should shoulder the blame, or if the blame for civilian deaths should be shared between security contractors, insurgents, police and innocent mistakes by Iraqi civilians.
What we can comment on is the opportunism being displayed by many in this tragedy and the political rush to judgment by both government officials and pundits.
As the
Jones Commission Report has made clear, the forensic capabilities of Iraqi police investigators are dubious, at best. As a result of their lack of training and equipment for forensic evidence gathering, processing, and analysis, "CSI Baghdad" is forced to rely heavily on eyewitnesses statements and personal observations of the investigators, which of course are prone to interpretation, biases, cognitive processing errors, etc. As we have radically different interpretations from the Iraqi government, Blackwater's spokespersons, and vastly different versions of events told by various eyewitnesses, it may very well be that we never precisely find out what happened shortly after noon this past Sunday in Nisour Square.
It may not matter.
Experts intimately familiar with the political terrain in Iraq have
already stated that Blackwater's guilt was a foregone conclusion, as it is a valuable political tool for a battered Iraqi government.
Likewise, political pundits outside of Iraq,
primarily opponents of the Iraq War, have used this latest incident to attack Blackwater in specific and security contractors in general for past offenses, and take for granted Blackwater's "obvious" guilt in this instance as well for political reasons of their own.
Why shouldn't they?
Public perception and political self-reinforcement have far exceeded any rational discussion of culpability in this case. Who is actually to blame for instigating the shootout and deaths at Nisour Square has become sadly irrelevant. Whether or not excessive force was used does not matter. Nor does it matter that despite the
factually ignorant and frankly hysterical criticisms of some, security firms operating in Iraq
are indeed susceptible to Iraqi law.
The truth of this matter has become a casualty to convenience.
Not that anyone cares.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
09:27 AM
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1
It's a sad state of affairs when the US Government has to rely on mercenaries to protect its personnel in Iraq. Why can't the US Army do this job?
Posted by: Max at September 21, 2007 10:08 AM (VRb5p)
2
Because it isn't the U.S. Army's job to babysit the State Department's personnel, perhaps?
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at September 21, 2007 11:00 AM (ScOBm)
3
Yes, but what does Murtha have to say about this. I'm sure he will not rush to judgment.
Posted by: BohicaTwentyTwo at September 21, 2007 01:35 PM (oC8nQ)
4
Max, one might as well ask why shopping malls can't have cops patrolling the corridors and parking lots during business hours, instead of private security.
It's a question of manpower and the efficient and effective use of that manpower.
Posted by: C-C-G at September 21, 2007 06:45 PM (lo4eE)
5
Another interesting point I just ran across: Blackwater was exempted from United States Armed Forces regulations that are supposed to be covering private security firms by order of the United States State Department.
Submitted for your consideration.
Posted by: C-C-G at September 21, 2007 07:02 PM (lo4eE)
6
*Because it isn't the U.S. Army's job to babysit the State Department's personnel[.]*
So MPs didn't do this job during WWII, Korea, Vietnam, et al.? The current batch suddenly too good to do the job "The Greatest Generation" did? hmmm...
Posted by: j at September 21, 2007 11:19 PM (Qj9lw)
7
J, your examples are prior to the Clinton Administration's drastic downsizing of the Armed Forces.
Thank you, however, for providing the proof that said downsizing was a bad idea.
Posted by: C-C-G at September 22, 2007 08:56 AM (lo4eE)
8
"Thank you, however, for providing the proof that said downsizing was a bad idea."
Course, to be fair, Clinton was assuming that that next administration wouldn't be stupid enough to drag us into an unnecessary war, requiring the extra manpower...
Posted by: arbotreeist at September 22, 2007 01:16 PM (N8M1W)
9
arbotreeist - You mean like the Balkans? Why did he start bombing there again without seeking approval? Why are we still there? What American interests are we protecting?
Or did you mean allowing Sadaam to evade his cease fire obligations for the entire term of the Clinton Presidency so that it would be someone else's mess to clean up? It's sort of like the deal he negotiated with North Korea where there started cheating day one and everyone knew it. Bill Clinton, leave the messes behind!
No wonder he was so popular internationally, he never did much.
Posted by: daleyrocks at September 22, 2007 01:31 PM (0pZel)
10
Don't forget President Clinton turning down the opportunity to grab Osama. That really turned out well, didn't it?
Posted by: C-C-G at September 22, 2007 02:00 PM (lo4eE)
11
no j, mp's did not provide security to diplomats operating in soveriegn foreign countries during Vietnam and I doubt they did during Korea and WWII.
And Marines are stationed in the embassies, not MP's.
Posted by: iconoclast at September 22, 2007 03:11 PM (TzLpv)
12
"Two years ago, I began planning cuts in military spending that reflected the changes of the new era. But now, this year, with Imperial Communism gone, that process can be accelerated. ... The Secretary of Defense recommended these cuts after consultation with the Joint Chiefs of Staff. And I make them with confidence. But do not misunderstand me: The reductions I have approved will save us an additional $50 billion over the next five years. By 1997 we will have cut defense by 30 percent since I took office."
--George H. W. Bush, State of the Union Address, January 29, 1992
you see, *this* is why i don't trust anyone who says they are a die-hard conservative OR a die-hard liberal, because they simply aren't capable of being honest. yes, clinton cut the military budget, as any right-winger will tell you. but they *won't* say he was merely continuing--and expanding, no doubt--a trend begun under bush sr. (likewise with a liberal: they'll blame bush [sr. & jr.] for everything under the sun before they'll entertain a disparaging thought about *either* clintons.) partisanship simply isn't honest, as CY and his apparatchiks here have demonstrated.
"Thank you, however, for providing the proof that said downsizing was a bad idea."
hmmm: odd that you didn’t say peep when your bedfellow “Looking Glass” suggested in a previous combox that we support Blackwater USA because “The Armed Forces of the USA are increasingly hamstrung by political correctness. A private company under the control of USA commanders is the best way around this”, effectively suggesting we phase out the military structure as we know it all together.
iconclast, you are more than likely right. now insert "marines" where i've written "MPs" and let’s take it from there. CY’s amnesia (“it isn't the U.S. Army's job to babysit the State Department”) suggests that this has never been a role filled by any military personnel.
Posted by: j at September 22, 2007 05:08 PM (Qj9lw)
13
Uh, J, there was another President between 1992 and today.
Did that President stop and/or reverse those cuts in the armed forces?
Posted by: C-C-G at September 22, 2007 05:24 PM (lo4eE)
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lame, CCG. that's already been addressed ("yes, clinton cut the military budget, as any right-winger will tell you. but they *won't* say he was merely continuing--and expanding, no doubt--a trend begun under bush sr."). what hasn't is your inability to acknowledge that the cutback woes this military faces goes back further than clinton and to place blame where it is due: bush sr. AND clinton--not just the latter.
Posted by: j at September 22, 2007 05:55 PM (Qj9lw)
15
J - I don't recall anyone above blaming the cuts entirely on Clinton, but nice try. He continued the trend started by Bush Sr. and the lows military spending in the past 25 years were on Clinton's watch. Here's a link to some stats:
http://www.cdi.org/news/mrp/us-military-spending.pdf
Isikoff and Corn also have a pretty devastating account of what Clinton allowed to happen to our intellingence gathering capabilities in their apologia for Plamegate, Hubris. Your attempts to paint the analysis as pure partisanship ring pretty hollow in the face of facts.
Is J an abbreviation for jaundiced?
Posted by: daleyrocks at September 22, 2007 05:55 PM (0pZel)
16
no, "jaded". on the right-vs-left BS. reflect carefully what bush sr. was saying: cut the defense budget by nearly a third (!) by 1997, well into the next president's term, _whomever_ that might be. i acknowledged that clinton expanded the same, and blame both equally for our having to use companies like blackwater to supplement our forces for reasons noted in another combox.*
*[their contracts siphon off funds earmarked for the effort, than for the reasons that they are hard to keep accountable, are not under US military command, have ever-increasingly co-opted jobs traditionally done by american GIs, and their interactions with iraqis frequently raise the risk-levels for US forces and their allies. … does it not erode troop morale to see blackwater agents getting paid many times more than our troops for doing the same work, and taking the same risks?]
Posted by: j at September 22, 2007 06:06 PM (Qj9lw)
17
The things that far left fanatical kooks like j forget are: The first World Trade Center bombing, Kobar tower bombing, 2 American embassies bombed, and the Cole bombing. During all these terrorist attacks Clinton continued to cut the military.
Posted by: Capitalist Infidel at September 22, 2007 06:18 PM (Lgw9b)
18
i acknowledged that clinton expanded the same
Thank you for proving my point for me.
Posted by: C-C-G at September 22, 2007 06:21 PM (lo4eE)
19
J - I read what you had to say and it's nothing new. I hear old timers at certain U.S. bases bitch that newer recruits don't get the same punishments they did when they entered the service, such as KP, because the kitchen function has been outsourced. Is that outsourcing you want to complain about too or is it just outsourcing that gets more visibility or because you may disagree with the Iraq war? What is your real point other than justifying an antiwar position?
Posted by: daleyrocks at September 22, 2007 06:22 PM (0pZel)
20
J - I've got a suggestion for you. Why don't you do a quick survey and figure out who is doing all the complaining about these security contractors. Is it a bunch of nutroot bloggers and antiwar organizations or is it broader than that? What are the specific complaints?
Posted by: daleyrocks at September 22, 2007 07:13 PM (0pZel)
21
Daley, you expect J to actually do (gasp) research?
He doesn't know how, he just parrots the usual talking points.
Posted by: C-C-G at September 22, 2007 08:14 PM (lo4eE)
22
C-C-G - No, I don't actually expect him to do anything to back up his positions. Does the U.S. military object to the security contractors? That would be an interesting data point for me. Who gives a darn if a bunch of lefties who want us out of Iraq even if there is a chance of achieving an acceptable outcome, even if it means losing our credibility as an ally in future crises, even if it means losing influence for the forseeable future in the Middle East, all because of an irrational hatred of George Bush and an overarching desire to return to power.
Posted by: daleyrocks at September 22, 2007 09:13 PM (0pZel)
23
Daley, I read somewhere (and have been searching for the site, with no luck so far) that many of those that Blackwater hires for positions that might involve combat are armed forces veterans. Assuming that is true, I can't see that the armed forces would object too strenuously to those particular Blackwater people.
However, I can certainly understand if the armed forces object to Blackwater employees being placed in combat positions without having at least some experience under fire, be it in the armed forces or in law enforcement (which these days are becoming very similar, for good or for ill).
Posted by: C-C-G at September 22, 2007 09:25 PM (lo4eE)
24
Speaking from Experience as a Contractor in Baghdad (and NOT with Blackwater): The Majority of the Blackwater Personnel, at the beginning of the Insurgency (I.E. 2003-Early '04) were made up of what we in Baghdad refered to as "The Cowboys" They tended to be prior service SF and Special Ops people who were making sick dinero and didn't care who was int he way. They tended to be clannish and rather anti-social toward other "Non-Elite" Contractors... I tended to avoid being around them as they were usually heavily armed and somewhat on the trigger-happy side.
Occasionally there were also 'wannabes' in the Blackwater Teams as well... guys with bogus resumes and faked DD214s... they tended to get weeded out quickly, but still, the occasional 'nonprofessional' would slip through the cracks, and this could also lead to issues... think of scene in Ronin with Sean Bean: " What's the color of the boathouse at Hereford?"
Anyways... per usual...
Posted by: Big Country at September 22, 2007 09:44 PM (8dJDM)
25
BC, thanks for that. I hadn't considered the "trigger-happy" types, I imagine the armed forces would take a dim view of having them in-country and armed.
Posted by: C-C-G at September 22, 2007 11:21 PM (lo4eE)
26
thanks indeed, Big C. i can't imagine the standard US soldier--the guy WE're supposed to be rallying 'round, contractors be damned--being in support of anything remotely resembling your description of blackwater.
“[F]igure out who is doing all the complaining about these security contractors.”
The “complaining,” as you call it, from military personnel started right off the bat, especially after abu graib. in this 2004 article, the captain grasped early the consequences of widespread use of contractors for security personnel; his points and opinion follow:
From “Outsourcing the Profession: A look at Military Contractors and their Impact on the Profession of Arms,” by Marc O. Hedahl, Capt, USAF NRO/IMINT/IGO
1—“[T]he final report written by Lt. Gen. Anthony Jones and Maj. Gen. George Fay on Abu Graib concluded that the use of private contractors as not only translators but interrogators were a key part of the problem. 50% of interrogators at Abu Graib at the time of the abuses were private contractors; 36% of the proven abuse incidents involved private contractors, and 35 % of those contract interrogators have not had any formal military training.” [why were none of them held accountable, unlike their military counterparts?]
2 – “We do not have sufficient oversight directly managing these contracts. There are currently only 14 people managing the greater than $18B of private contracts in Iraq.” [that was then. look at the US GAO report issued last December to see how little has changed.]
3 – “[Blackwater] reports that 30% of its current labor force lacks formal military training.” [see marine colonel (ret.) thomas x. hammes’ recent interview with “Frontline” on his experience in iraq dealing with contractors’ (as a whole) lack of any formal military training and the predictable results.]
4 – “The Outsourcing can also negatively impact the ability to retain crucial, skilled personnel within the military itself. For example, there are reportedly more former British Special Forces soldiers working for PMFs in Iraq than in the entire British Armed Services.”
5 – “Worst of all, we have ripped the profession apart. We have fractured our training, our accountability, and our ethical codes. I do not believe that the crisis has yet reached the point where talk of the military profession is meaningless, but I know that we cannot fight alongside and independently of large numbers of mercenaries for extended periods of time without becoming mercenaries ourselves, not because of the effect that their actions will have on ours, but merely because their existence destroys the ability for the profession to exist at all. If we ever reach such a point, our uniforms, our medals, and even our codes of honor truly will become nothing more than anachronistic window dressing.” [wow. one man’s opinion, to be sure, but still: wow.]
(http://www.usafa.edu/isme/JSCOPE05/Hedahl05.html)
on another, but related, note, reports like this one from 2005 have been trickling out of iraq since the beginning of the war, reports in which military (former or current) personnel have themselves been sources for stories detailing abuse by contractors:
“U.S. Contractors in Iraq Allege Abuses
“There are new allegations that heavily armed private security contractors in Iraq are brutalizing Iraqi civilians. In an exclusive interview, four former security contractors told NBC News that they watched as innocent Iraqi civilians were fired upon, and one crushed by a truck. The contractors worked for an American company paid by U.S. taxpayers. The Army is looking into the allegations.
“The four men are all retired military veterans: Capt. Bill Craun, Army Rangers; Sgt. Jim Errante, military police; Cpl. Ernest Colling, U.S. Army; and Will Hough, U.S. Marines. All went to Iraq months ago as private security contractors.
….
“They worked for an American company named Custer Battles, hired by the Pentagon to conduct dangerous missions guarding supply convoys. They were so upset by what they saw, three quit after only one or two missions.”
(http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6947745/)
it all begs the questions--what ever becomes of these allegations? what security contractors were held accountable for abu graib? why is it only ever the military who is held accountable when an iraqi civilian is killed in a firefight? what impact has this double standard had on military morale?
Posted by: j at September 23, 2007 04:48 AM (Qj9lw)
27
J - You sound like a truther, raising questions without attempting to answer them. Abu Ghraib interrogators are not a security detail. Having only 30% of a work force not ex-military doesn't sound like a lot. What experience did the rest have, police or other law enforcement or nothing? Hasn't the British military gone through an even more drastic downsizing that the U.S.? Where do ex-British professional soldiers find work?
Why not follow some of your own red herrings to their own conclusions Jaded? The $18 billion of contracts you throw on the table are not all security contracts. Who made the decision to employ security contractors? Was it the State Department or people holding the contract awards? Is this standard practice is third world type contries with a high degree of risk? It's easy if you try a little honesty rather than partisanship.
Posted by: daleyrocks at September 23, 2007 08:08 AM (0pZel)
28
Okay, J, what's your solution to this problem?
Pull soldiers off the surge and jeopardize the gains we have made, so that Iraq backslides?
Pull State Department people out of the country?
Complete withdrawal from Iraq, and thus cause the genocide that even the NY Times admits will happen?
It's easy to sit in your comfy chair and bitch and moan and complain. Now do some hard work and come up with a workable solution.
Posted by: C-C-G at September 23, 2007 10:41 AM (lo4eE)
29
C-C-G - I haven't seen it yet, but I'm waiting for J to make the usual lefty objection that if we can't provide security for our people we had no business starting this illegal war in the first place. It all just illustrates what a quagmire it is to people like J.
Posted by: daleyrocks at September 23, 2007 11:31 AM (0pZel)
30
I for one feel this has turned into one major
Cluster F**k...You have JAG lawyers under every
rock,insane REO,Soldiers scared to shoot because
of the REO...2 SF Snipers up on Murder charges
for doing their job as ordered...A Marine spec-ops unit thrown out of Afgahnistan for a supposed
10 mile running gun battle for lack of trainning
"Give me a break" by the way both charges were
brought by the same Perfume Prince LT Gen kerny.
A press corp who wouldn't know the truth if it
bit them in the arse...A Democratic party who
under mine the troops at every turn(My party by the way) You tell me how you win like that!!!!
And Radical Islam watching and waiting with a
very big simle on their face...
Posted by: Tincan Sailor at September 23, 2007 11:58 AM (L4HGI)
31
Oh, I imagine my comment will provoke that reaction.
What J and lefties like him/her don't realize is that we do not inhabit a perfect world--or a perfectable one, either. Sometimes you have to go with a less than ideal solution because it is better than the alternatives.
Using contractors for security fits that description, I think. It's not ideal, but it's better than removing soldiers from more critical missions, and I'd venture a guess that's precisely why it's being done.
Posted by: C-C-G at September 23, 2007 11:59 AM (lo4eE)
32
BTW, the Iraqis claim they have a videotape that shows the Blackwater guys shooting without provocation.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/worldlatest/story/0,,-6941512,00.html
Posted by: The Voice of Reason at September 23, 2007 12:41 PM (K1Emm)
33
Yeah, VOR, and OJ claims he's innocent.
Let's see this video, if it exists. Just claiming to have it means nothing.
Posted by: C-C-G at September 23, 2007 12:47 PM (lo4eE)
34
While you split hairs on inanities, your hired mercenaries kill more innocent people on the roads of yet another nation.
Disarm and jail these thugs. They are no different from the fanatics in their suicide trucks. Both kill innocent people and claim the moral high ground.
A proliferation of morons let loose by a nation so full of itself and so blinded by its own sense of righteousness that it has lost the ability to see the consequences of its actions.
Posted by: Shubhs at September 23, 2007 02:12 PM (xg3UO)
35
Shubhs, what about the members of the Party of the Donkey who want us to pull out and leave the tribes to a real civil war, thus causing genocide? What about the ability to see the consequences of those actions?
But that's okay to idiots like you... if a difficult situation develops, you're content to tuck tail between your legs and run, rather than face it, and the consequences, and try to make it better.
Better see a doctor about that BDS before January 2009.
Posted by: C-C-G at September 23, 2007 02:34 PM (lo4eE)
36
J:
OK: Abu Ghraib. Been there personally. Done that. Up CLOSE and PERSONAL I grow weary of all you armchair assholes taking the MSM version without actually asking or KNOWING anything from a first person point of view.
The interrogators at Abu Ghraib were resolved and absolved COMPLETELY by the Taguba investigation. The ONLY contractors who had ANY true involvement were part and parcel from the Titan Corporation and not only that, but were actually Lebanese and Local/Third Country Nationals who were hired by Titan as translators and subcontracted through CACI. I know this for a fact as many if not all of the interrogators were/are my friends and I worked with them for almost two years. (BTW part of the reason we never heard anything else about it was that the Christians In Action don't like any press coverage)
No, I myself am not an interrogator, nor do I speak for any of the companies in any way shape or form. What I am is a Patriotic American who would rather see a POS terrorist go through humiliation and physical discomfort rather than lose a single American Soldiers life. The Quote Torture UnQuote utilized is far less harsh than what a standard US Fraternity puts its pledges through. I for one grow weary of that dead horse being dug up and flayed every time soemthing untward happens here. Its the Lefts Pentultimate Example of "American-Military-Evil" and is used every single time to whip and beat down those who disagree with them. It's the Lefties "Nuclear Option" so to speak.
And for those of you who think I'm wrong on this: To give an idea of how jacked up the situation is in dealing with 'detainees'... An Iraqi male was found immeadiately after an ambush of a convoy in which one female soldier lost her life. Said Iraqi male was caught WITH an RPG-7B shoulder launcher IN HIS HANDS. According to Iraqi law, BECAUSE he wasn't caught ACTUALLY in the act of firing said rocket, the presumption of innocence is maintained. In other words, despite having caught this joker with literally a 'smoking gun' in hand, he was released within a week because his claim was that he had 'found' the launcher sitting on the ground... this being the case in the Majority of circumstances. Yeah... they are all 'innocent'...
Many times in the Local Employment screening cells would we find former 'Fedayeen Saddam' trying to gain employment on Bases shortly after their release from the Division or Battalion Holding Areas. (They were easy to spot as they have tatoos on the back of thier hands) and after being caught and asked exactly what they were doing, they would for the most part invariably and openly admit that they were there to gain a job on base to first infiltrate and then set up 'something' to try and kill as many Americans as possible. One guy even had the brass to ask me for a cigarette and openly admitted that he had just gotten released from Abu G for having fired rockets into Balad...
As long as this kind of crap goes on, and the partisan bullshit keeps erupting, we're never going to get anywhere in this....
Posted by: Big Country at September 23, 2007 02:35 PM (8dJDM)
37
Thank you Big Country. It is amazing to me how the left in this country attempts to speak with an air of authority yet proves its ignorance time after time.
Posted by: daleyrocks at September 23, 2007 02:55 PM (0pZel)
38
Uh, Big C., aren't you thinking of Army Provost Marshall Donald Ryder's report made prior? Because if anything, Taguba later buried the Ryder Report. He recommended that Colonel Thomas Pappas, the commander of one of the M.I. brigades, be reprimanded and receive non-judicial punishment, and that Lieutenant Colonel Steven Jordan, the former director of the Joint Interrogation and Debriefing Center, be relieved of duty and reprimanded. He further urged that a civilian contractor, Steven Stephanowicz, of CACI International, be fired from his Army job, reprimanded, and denied his security clearances for lying to the investigating team and allowing or ordering military policemen "who were not trained in interrogation techniques to facilitate interrogations by 'setting conditions' which were neither authorized" nor in accordance with Army regulations. "He clearly knew his instructions equated to physical abuse," the Taguba Report said. He also recommended disciplinary action against a second CACI employee, John Israel. "I suspect," Taguba concluded, that Pappas, Jordan, Stephanowicz, and Israel "were either directly or indirectly responsible for the abuse at Abu Ghraib," and strongly recommended immediate disciplinary action.
Posted by: j at September 23, 2007 04:01 PM (fd/rX)
39
"I grow weary of all you armchair assholes taking the MSM version..."
Uh, read my post again, Big C: I was quoting a paper written by a USAAF captain who was himself referencing a report written by two Army generals and their findings. No MSM sources there, champ.
"The interrogators at Abu Ghraib were resolved and absolved COMPLETELY by the Taguba investigation."
Uuh...maybe we're dealing with a reading/comprehension thing here because aren't you thinking of Army Provost Marshall Donald Ryder's report made *prior*? Ryder merely stated that there was *potential* for abuse, and not actual abuse at the time of his writing. Later, Taguba *buried* the Ryder Report. He recommended that Colonel Thomas Pappas, the commander of one of the M.I. brigades, be reprimanded and receive non-judicial punishment, and that Lieutenant Colonel Steven Jordan, the former director of the Joint Interrogation and Debriefing Center, be relieved of duty and reprimanded. He further urged that a civilian contractor, Steven Stephanowicz, of CACI International, be fired from his Army job, reprimanded, and denied his security clearances for lying to the investigating team and allowing or ordering military policemen "who were not trained in interrogation techniques to facilitate interrogations by 'setting conditions' which were neither authorized" nor in accordance with Army regulations. "He clearly knew his instructions equated to physical abuse," the Taguba Report said. He also recommended disciplinary action against a second CACI employee, John Israel. "I suspect," Taguba concluded, that Pappas, Jordan, Stephanowicz, and Israel "were either directly or indirectly responsible for the abuse at Abu Ghraib," and strongly recommended immediate disciplinary action.
From MY armchair, that hardly sounds like a 'complete absolution'.
Posted by: j at September 23, 2007 04:15 PM (fd/rX)
40
my apologies for the double post; got a blank screen after the first attempt.
Posted by: j at September 23, 2007 04:27 PM (fd/rX)
41
J - What does Abu Ghraib have to do with contract employees pulling security duties again? Aren't you just looking for any black mark against contractors to deride the whole process rather than follow the subject of the post?
Posted by: daleyrocks at September 23, 2007 05:21 PM (0pZel)
42
@CCG: "what about the members of the Party of the Donkey who want us to pull out and leave the tribes to a real civil war"
Mate, to us outside the cosy world of the United States, these are just your internal politics...irritants, tangential to the real issue.
This situation wouldn't be there in the first place if you, the 'foreign fighters' there, let us not forget, didn't poke your fat ignorant nose there five years ago. Of course, hindsight is 20-20 and all that...yada yada. Pardon my naivete, but arming a bunch of trigger-happy thugs and letting them loose with a mandate to kill at will, civilians included, isn't what the rest of the world understands to be conflict resolution. My country won't let a bunch of unregulated indisciplined armed mercenaries like these even enter our airspace.
Posted by: Shubs at September 23, 2007 05:24 PM (xg3UO)
43
J - Have you read "Unhinged" by Michelle Malkin? It does a pretty good job documenting violence and looniness of the left in this country in pursuit of its political goals, although she doesn't try to tar everyone. Anne Coulter does try to tar the entire left with most of her columns, which is closer to what you are trying to do with contract employees in Iraq. Do you like Anne Coulter or being on the receiving end of Anne Coulter columns? How do you think contract employees or relatives of contract employees feel about being described as murderers and thugs by your uninformed ilk?
Posted by: daleyrocks at September 23, 2007 05:29 PM (0pZel)
44
J:
To finish this in short but sweet mode... (I had attempted to post a longer response but the damned thing got eaten! GGGGRRRRRRR!!!)
Essentially: Abu G has not one damned thing to do with the current issue. The "Scandal" is used as a bludgeon on any and all opposition to the Leftist Dogma of "Contractors Out of Control" or "Evil Military Out of Control."
You use incorrect terms like "security contractors at Abu Ghraib" and other such terms in order to create the idea that they are somehow tied to the current Blackwater issue. Its the whole Goebbels Ideal of 'repeating it enough makes it a valid truth.' *(Thus I can equal Progressives/Liberals with Nazism... and seeing that Socialism is part and parcel of the Progressive Agenda it bears that the National Socialist Party WERE the NAZIS!)
But besides that, I have to say that no one, not any of the Witless Neocon AIPAC scum nor Ted 'Learn to Swim' Kennedy or their ilk have ever set foot on the ground in Iraq for any REAL time or meaningful experience.
Us contractors work 12 to 18 hours a day, 7 days a week... its been 9 months since I saw my wife or kids, and 6 months since I had my last beer on a 2 day trip to Egypt. We sacrifice huge amounts, and get damned near "NO respect" as the late great Rodney would say, and sure, we make good $$$, but thats what has to be done if we want to get ahead in the current economy. Until you've been on the ground, you really have NO idea whats going on over there.
Posted by: Big Country at September 23, 2007 06:15 PM (8dJDM)
45
J:
To finish this in short but sweet mode... (I had attempted to post a longer response but the damned thing got eaten! GGGGRRRRRRR!!!)
Essentially: Abu G has not one damned thing to do with the current issue. The "Scandal" is used as a bludgeon on any and all opposition to the Leftist Dogma of "Contractors Out of Control" or "Evil Military Out of Control."
You use incorrect terms like "security contractors at Abu Ghraib" and other such terms in order to create the idea that they are somehow tied to the current Blackwater issue. Its the whole Goebbels Ideal of 'repeating it enough makes it a valid truth.' *(Thus I can equal Progressives/Liberals with Nazism... and seeing that Socialism is part and parcel of the Progressive Agenda it bears that the National Socialist Party WERE the NAZIS!)
But besides that, I have to say that no one, not any of the Witless Neocon AIPAC scum nor Ted 'Learn to Swim' Kennedy or their ilk have ever set foot on the ground in Iraq for any REAL time or meaningful experience.
Us contractors work 12 to 18 hours a day, 7 days a week... its been 9 months since I saw my wife or kids, and 6 months since I had my last beer on a 2 day trip to Egypt. We sacrifice huge amounts, and get damned near "NO respect" as the late great Rodney would say, and sure, we make good $$$, but thats what has to be done if we want to get ahead in the current economy. Until you've been on the ground, you really have NO idea whats going on over there.
Posted by: Big Country at September 23, 2007 06:15 PM (8dJDM)
46
Shubs - What is your country Mate and is it at war? Does it have foreign suicide bombers infiltrating it to kill its own citizens and those trying to bring peace to it? What exactly is your frame of reference Mate?
Posted by: daleyrocks at September 23, 2007 06:16 PM (0pZel)
47
Big Country, when ya get back, if you're near the panhandle of Idaho, drop me a line. I'll buy you a steak and a beer.

Posted by: C-C-G at September 23, 2007 10:09 PM (lo4eE)
48
Hey, J, I note that you've replied several times and yet not answered my question. So I'll repeat it so you don't have to scroll back.
What is your solution to the "problem" you think you've exposed?
Or are you just someone who delights in saying "that's not the way to do it," without having any idea what the right way is?
Posted by: C-C-G at September 23, 2007 10:37 PM (lo4eE)
49
@daleyrocks:
"What is your country Mate and is it at war? Does it have foreign suicide bombers infiltrating it to kill its own citizens and those trying to bring peace to it? What exactly is your frame of reference Mate?"
Yes, to all of the above. We have been in a proxy war with an Islamic state for the last three decades. Long before your countrymen knew how to even spell 'terrorism'.
My country has foreign terrorists infiltrating it on a regular basis to try and kill our citizens. Does yours? Fact check: Iraq is not 'YOUR' country. The only infiltrators you get in your country are there to earn a quick buck, and I don't think Canadians are really dying to get into the US.
My country has not invaded any other country, and we don't have armed mercenaries killing civilians in any other country.
So, I think I am entitled to a little moral superiority here. Thank you.
America's way is not the only way, nor is it always the correct way. An intelligent people will acknowledge that, and try to correct a bad situation. You can only rectify something when you admit it is broken. Hubris does not help resolve anything.
An unregulated armed militia like Blackwater is no different from the Mahdi Army...dispensing instant justice from the barrel of a gun. For once, step back and look the truth in the eye. These arguments are for argument's sake. You know it as well as anybody here.
They screwed up. They should pay for their crimes.
But they won't.
Because they are Americans.
Because in your eyes an American thug's freedom is worth more than the life of an unknown Iraqi.
That is my frame of reference my friend. And if you care to wake up and look around, you will find it is the frame of reference of most people around the world.
This war's time is up. And Blackwater is just the first step to that end.
Posted by: Shubs at September 24, 2007 12:26 AM (xg3UO)
50
Big C., i bear you--or anyone else in this--no ill will. as you say, in a multi-faceted situation as you're in (and the rest of your family, by proxy), the truth of a matter is hard to discern for the rest of us. stateside, we're made to rely on information that is often inaccurate, regardless of who is putting it out, and it can create an atmosphere of distrust among individuals that more often than not are seeking the same thing. i look to what the military has said in its official capacity when i mention abu graib, not to broadbrush contractors into an easily digestible lump you've called "Contractors Out of Control," or some other such thing--for that reason my posts listed non-blackwater groups such as CACI and Custer Battles, etc. i *know* you aren't all in the same boat, and perhaps a more careful reading of the general point i--and others far more qualified than i--have tried to make would reflect that. i accept responsibility for my tone, however, and apologize if it sounded judgemental or condescending--as an american, you are entitled to whatever honest work you've set yourself to. i wish i could say i said it first, but i'll say it anyway: enjoy that first bottle of suds when home. cheers, j
Posted by: j at September 24, 2007 12:36 AM (Qj9lw)
51
Shubs - Your comments says nothing. It's a bunch of platitudes signifying a bunch of crap. If you think you've got moral superiority, good on ya, you just sound like another superior Brit or euroweenie with an I hate America fetish.
Posted by: daleyrocks at September 24, 2007 01:53 AM (0pZel)
52
daleyrocks:
I was just waiting for the 'anti-american' card to be waived...and right on cue, here it is!
Yet another convenient, all-encompassing label to hide and justify any kind of uncomfortable truth.
Anyway, not my war and not my country.
But get this straight. The only 'platitudes' the world is tired of hearing are of the moral kind that come from the current American administration as they go about reducing nations to rubble, killing people and destroying lives and societies, all in the pursuit of the elusive goal of global domination. All the while frothing at the mouth preaching about freedom, democracy and liberation.
And sorry to disappoint you, but I'm not European and I don't 'hate' America. It's only in caricatures of your perceived enemies that you see this 'hatred'. It does not exist. Nobody 'hates' you for your 'freedoms'. That logic, that line of thinking is so inherently stupid that it defies belief that people of an advanced and educated nation like yours can even fall for it.
But I don't think you are ignorant of that fact either. It's just that your pride does not allow you to back down from a point of view that you know is wrong.
Posted by: Shubs at September 24, 2007 02:17 AM (xg3UO)
53
CCG, i haven't ignored your question; indeed, i've thought long about it and have no off-the-cuff answers. part of me alikens it to a doctor telling his patient, 'look, you continue in the fashion you're going and you'll be dead in a year', knowing the patient is going to go home and do nothing different. only difference is, our patient is the gov't of the good ol' US of A and at this point, it has made it clear that doesn't *want* to implement change--the supplanting of the GI from yesteryear's brown boot army IS THE POINT. the blueprints were on the table long before 9-11 or iraq: smaller, faster, more efficient. in-and-out of a hotspot. get the job done and go home. hire out someone to peel the potatoes: our guys don't have the time to sit around and cook sh*t like the mess sarge on M*A*S*H. sounds good, no? well, that's what they thought--and the rummy plan was in full effect when WHAM! they ran into an engagement like iraq. and now they're FUBAR, like their pretty plans. our allies are scratching their heads, thinking, wtf? and our enemies like china and russia are laughing their asses off.
well, imo, the only way out is the way we came in. sure, we can expect it'll be a mess, but nearly anyone who'd really want to--and be able to--sucker punch us at this point could, and this isn't making anyone more apt to pick up democracy anywhere it already isn't. so why are we, a two-ton gorilla, swiping at gnats? just because they landed a good one, once or twice? hell--even *that* could've been prevented if they'd given operations like able danger a chance to work, imo. i am firmly in the camp that says, any country as internationally active as ours *has* to come to grips with a constant threat of terrorism. russia has, the UK has, india has, israel has, etc: you sleep around, you'd better be willing to risk an STD, regardless of how you wrap it. the real question is: does terrorism really pose as existential a threat to the US as does, say, china? not hardly, imo.
so about the contractors: they're a symptom of a problem and not the problem itself. recall the troops, re-tool and re-build: every country has had to do it and it didn't necessarily mean their end. NOT recalling them in time COULD, however, as it did for the USSR after their afghan safari. so:
1-recall the troops: we did in vietnam and, even though old scores were settled after we left, the domino effect in the southeast never happened. i mean, think about it before you shout, "Cut&runner!!"--what did we *really* lose? we STILL split the sino-soviet axis AND started SALT talks--i.e., our biggest enemies and threats (the ones we were trying to impress by staying in Vietnam) didn't seem to think less of us.
2-re-tool: dump the humvee; more MRAPs. invest in better armed, longer-ranged Predators, etc. more eyes-in-the-skies and whatnot. papers will be written, theses developed and debunked, and "What should the 21st century US Army look like?" questions asked. has happened since rome was trounced at carrhae.
3-rebuild: invest in the soldier, dammit, not just his rifle. first thing to do is ram a sizeable increase in pay thru congress and restructure the VA. rebuild defense from the ground-up. whittle the contractors' pool down to a nub, like it once was. sure, they need to come on base to teach a class in arabic or run a cable line into housing on-post, but that should be it. "No guns for the hired help" should be a rule, because the hired help isn't going into battle, bottom line. also, as a fan of smedley butler, i think posse comitatus should apply outside of the US as much as it does within.
these are a few thoughts. you asked, and i gave your queston the value of my time i think it deserved. no doubt others think differently, but such is our american way and i wouldn't have it any other.
Posted by: j at September 24, 2007 02:21 AM (Qj9lw)
54
So MPs didn't do this job during WWII, Korea, Vietnam, et al.?
Ummm, no. What do you think the department of state's DSS is for? Fetching donuts?
Posted by: Purple Avenger at September 24, 2007 07:52 AM (/G4Xe)
55
Shubs - I don't believe you were waitng for the anti-American card to be played in the thread, I believe you played it. Here are a few of your quotes:
A proliferation of morons let loose by a nation so full of itself and so blinded by its own sense of righteousness that it has lost the ability to see the consequences of its actions.
This situation wouldn't be there in the first place if you, the 'foreign fighters' there, let us not forget, didn't poke your fat ignorant nose there five years ago.
I don't go in for your cheap mind reading tricks of assuming you know what others think so you can buzz off on that. You continue to claim moral superiority without revealing its source. Sweet!
Posted by: daleyrocks at September 24, 2007 08:57 AM (0pZel)
56
So, J, you'd withdraw and leave the Iraqis to the genocide that even the NY Times says would happen? Even if the "domino effect" never happened in Southeast Asia, millions lost their lives that might have been saved if we hadn't pulled out. Ever hear of the killing fields?
You say we didn't really lose anything... does the massive loss of life after we cut and run mean nothing to you? Do the lives of those who look different--different skin tone, different eye shape--mean nothing to you?
You just dug yourself a real deep hole there, neighbor.
Posted by: C-C-G at September 24, 2007 09:00 AM (lo4eE)
57
Trackbacked by The Thunder Run - Web Reconnaissance for 09/24/2007
A short recon of what’s out there that might draw your attention, updated throughout the day...so check back often.
Posted by: David M at September 24, 2007 10:22 AM (gIAM9)
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J - It was good of you to take some time and effort to construct a comment rather than use stale talking points.
Nice
Posted by: daleyrocks at September 24, 2007 11:14 AM (0pZel)
59
now before we rush to judgment, lemme say this: not necessarily gonna happen, even if the Times says it will. consider:
1- iraq has no history of sectarian violence; our presence (and make no mistake, it would be the same if it were russia's or saudi arabia's) is, according to some, *itself the catalyst* for the sectarianism. even during the iran-iraq war, there was little evidence that the shia bloque in iraq costituted a fifth column within, working with the iranians. instead, iraq--largely shia--fought *as one* against the only other shia gov't in the middle east. the longer we stay, i think, the deeper the hole is being dug for a once and future iraqi gov't, as anyone who works with the coalition is immediately out any street cred.
2-iraqis don't want to see iraq split into three fractions/factions, but the US is going ahead with it anyway. why? consider this news article from the other day:
"BAGHDAD (AFP) — Hundreds of Shiites and Sunnis marched on Wednesday in protest at the building by US troops of a tall concrete wall separating their northwest Baghdad neighbourhoods, an AFP photographer said.
The protesters complained that the wall would promote sectarianism and demanded its removal."
(http://afp.google.com/article/ALeqM5i9vMA27D7Fu1r_4jW_jmdsEa1KKg)
i take their protests to be a good sign, one that says they're willing to fight for what's theirs. without that, this whole thing will surely have been a failed venture, imo.
3-what to do with the kurds, however? they are certainly not going to give up any of their hard-won sovereignty, and even if they *are* our most reliable allies in the country, their increased autonomy threatens the whole region, from turkey to northern iran. i am at a loss here; it gets even stickier, with rumors of ongoing israeli-kurdish arms-and-cash deals going down all the time.
4-iranian influence is *not* welcome in iraq, itself also a good sign. (wish i could add to this but am short on time.)
5-Ahmadinejad is a delusional fool, but kept on a short leash by Supreme Leader Khamenei, who is himself commander-in-chief; head of all security ops and intel; and alone possesses the power to declare war. ergo, i think 90% of the president's rhetoric can be disregarded, and mention him only to preempt any suggestion that he's another reason we have to stay.
in short, it isn't that i feel nothing for iraqis. rather, it is *because* i think highly of their capacity to get over this *if we let them* that i think that iraq is salvageable. iraqis are dying NOW and fleeing the country NOW: the threat of "it's all gonna go to hell if we leave" is tautological. so is it really just a matter of deciding how much hell-at-once or how little hell-over-a-longer-time are they gonna have to endure before they get their country back? i wouldn't like to think so, but that might be the $64K question.
Posted by: j at September 24, 2007 11:28 AM (Qj9lw)
60
@daleyrocks:
Whatever. Just don't put your cowboy boots on my nation's soil.
Stay out, and maybe we can be friends.
Posted by: Shubs at September 24, 2007 12:19 PM (vPJAs)
61
J: Thanks for the kind rebuttle... nice to see a non-hostile response. I also, after reading your last, happen to agree with you on the majority of your points. The Iraqis... the 'everyday Joe Iraqi' on the street tends to want this whole mess to blow over... The biggest issue which NO ONE on either side has EVER really touched on was the violence that keeps happening (i.e. kidnapping and murder and general thievery) can be attributed in large to desperation AND the fact that Saddam opened the door to every single prison in Iraq as the invasion commenced.
To give you perspective on this: Imagine every single jailed inmate in the state of New York being released and in some cases, armed by their former jailers... Thats according to the Bureau of Justice Statistics (googled it) That would be upwards of 75,000 criminals cut loose all at once. Just imagine the chaos that would happen if only 10% of them return to crime or even violent crime.
Throw in the raging unemployment, the standing military of 1.5million men under arms being suddenly 'out of work' but still armed, the influx of 'foriegn fighters' and a culture that pretty much encourages "Getting what you can when you can" in the Body Politic, and you have a recipe foor complete and total breakdown of any and all services.
Personally, I hope we get the hell out soon, despite the fact that it'll leave me unemployed
CCG: Appreciate it sir! I may just have to tell you to do me a favor and take a Iraq Vet out to dinner instead... he or she deserves it much more than I!
Besides... 30 Days and I got me some R&R... or I&I... (Intercorse and Intoxication!!!!! LOL)
Posted by: Big Country at September 24, 2007 01:57 PM (8dJDM)
62
Stubs - Since you haven't disclosed your country, it makes it a little hard to refute your points. I suppose that is the way you want it.
Posted by: daleyrocks at September 24, 2007 02:47 PM (0pZel)
63
J - Your point #1 - No history of sectarian violence - Do you mean because the Shia were firmly under the boot of the Sunni.
Now that things have changed, plus with Iranian support of some of the leading Shia clerics (where did they spend their exiles?), and some of the factors Big C mentioned, it's a whole new ball game there. The Sunni aren't used to being out of power and the Shia want their turn at the top along with some revenge for sins of the past IMHO. Every one has to become convinced of the benfits of working together and sharing power.
Posted by: daleyrocks at September 24, 2007 02:55 PM (0pZel)
64
"Do you mean because the Shia were firmly under the boot of the Sunni[?]"
inside the corridors of power, this was true. iraqi christians were overrepresented (vis-a-vis their numbers in the country) in saddam's gov't to the exclusion of the shia, even. but in the neighborhoods of baghdad, shia-and-sunni intermarriages were common, and christians largely unmolested. *outsiders* were seen with distrust, and kurds (and iranians and saudis, et al) were considered outsiders.
"with...some of the factors Big C mentioned, it's a whole new ball game there."
again, to a certain degree, yes. Big C brought up a very relevant point about the prisoners that gets zero play in the media when it comes to hard-core discussions on iraq, and *has* to be brought into play on the matter. now, not all of the ex-cons were of the worst stripe--many were simply political/religious enemies of saddam or his family. but enough of them were that they have to be considered a factor in the insurgency, at least in it's earliest days. with that said, i'm not sure i'd say it's a "whole new ballgame" but it *does* factor into this, somehow; it's just out of my league to opine on how, exactly.
"Every one has to become convinced of the benfits of working together and sharing power."
i couldn't agree more, and i think the purple fingers were proof that the street long ago become convinced that a.) it was a good thing to be rid of saddam and b.) it's do-or-die time, with regards to keeping iraq intact.
Posted by: j at September 24, 2007 03:44 PM (Qj9lw)
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No history of sectarian violence?
Uh, J, you conveniently forget Saddam's gassing of the Kurds.
I'd say a gas attack by a member of one sect (Sunni) upon another sect (Kurd) is "sectarian violence."
Stop believing everything MoveOn tells you.
Posted by: C-C-G at September 24, 2007 07:24 PM (lo4eE)
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Big Country: I happen to know a Marine Sergeant quite well (I believe he's commented here once or twice) and he knows he's got a standing invitation for a steak. Alas, the closest he's gotten to my grill has been Utah, so far, but he keeps promising to come around someday.
Posted by: C-C-G at September 24, 2007 07:44 PM (lo4eE)
67
Iraq has serious problems and will continue to have them for years to come. Our own nation was conceived in blood in 1775, but we did not establish our constitution until 1788, thirteen years later. Why do we expect overnight magic in Iraq?
After WW2 US troops remained in Germany and Japan for several years (hint they are still there). Attacks against our troops in Germany continued well past 1985, FORTY years later! While stationed there in the mid 80's, we were constantly reminded to be vigilant bacause groups supported by enemies of freedom opposed us. The majority of the attackers were foreign, but we also faced abuse from home grown America haters. I was stationed at Pirmasens, home to the green party. Many members of my unit were attacked while down in town.
Outsourcing has its ups and its downs. Generally contract employees are cheaper to maintain for many functions from cooks to gate guards. Many needs go beyond what soldiers are capable of. I'm not dissing troops here, I'm being real. A lot of our kids in the Military have a high school diploma and little more. True officers all have college educations, and most senior NCOs as well, but joe the private is often fresh out of high school, full of patriotic zeal, and in need of good guidance. Its hard to put up a good security detail for state dept from that. Blackwater et al are specialists. With prior experience, these guys provide a level of security higher then most MP companies can accomplish. Units like the OSI cando it, but they are already taxed to the max with their own details. I doubt they could spare ten men for a convoy for one day, let alone every day.
Looking back at Vietnam, it had its economic reasons. At the start of the war, it was a primary source of rubber, before we learned to synthisize plastic from crude. It was a crucial chess piece for many years. Were atrocities comitted there? Yes they were, hundreds of times, maybe even thousands. 99.9% by the NVA and VC units. Its the same then as now, Dan rather reported back then.
If you think nothing happened when we left, think again, and learn to do research. Many Vietnamese were killed by the communists. They even killed Viet Cong because they had leadership skills. The educated masses were slaughtered. Teachers, lawyers, doctors, killed because they had educations that taught them about life beyond the walls of communism. The murder also spread, Laos, Cambodia, even into Thailand. Millions died for no reason except that we supported bad policies, and let communists infiltrate our colleges here at home.
Wise democrats should support the troops in Iraq, and an invasion of Iran. Islam opposes all that is dear to democrats.
Furthermore, think what a full blown civil war in Iraq would do to the WORLD economy. The violence would spread. be assured of that. People would flee to surrounding countries for safety, and those countries would be attacked by the radicals because they provided shelter. These groups will behave like Mafiosos given the chance. The world depends on oil. sorry, its a fact. Desert storm was about oil. Bush Sr. admitted it, only fools deny it. This is about oil too, but its not about stealing it as so many try to imply. Its about staving off economic disaster, and ecological disaster as well.
We all though Saddam had WMD. That was a common train of htough on both sides of the isle. That was not the only reason for kicking his ass out of power. It is the only reason not proven valid. BUT it has also not been proven invalid either. It never will be either way. Saddam may have had them and may have shipped them to Syria, or crazy as it sounds, Iran.
Yup, bitter enemies them two! ROFL@U. Saddam sent his air force into Iran to save them from destruction by the USAF prior to desert storm.
Anyone remember the joke? what does Saddam call his airforce? Its the I Ran Air Force. Old but so true!
Posted by: Jeremy at September 24, 2007 09:33 PM (FHbDj)
68
Very good points, Jeremy.
Pulling out of Iraq would also embolden the Islamoterrorists... they'd be slapping each other on the back yelling, "we chased the Americans off!"
Posted by: C-C-G at September 24, 2007 10:19 PM (lo4eE)
69
J - I think you need to do some more work on your Iraqi history. The Sunni dominated the Shia economically as a result of their political power. Look at WWII forward.
Posted by: daleyrocks at September 25, 2007 12:05 AM (0pZel)
70
"...you conveniently forget Saddam's gassing of the Kurds."
no, i didn't forget, but their gassing wasn't an act of ethnic cleansing *per se*: they revolted against saddam's rule (making them more like chechen separatists), declared themselves part of a greater kurdistan, and received iranian funding and support as an iranian effort to give saddam hell, basically. while their ethnicity cannot be ignored as part of the larger context (ie, no doubt their brutal surpression was only made easier to carry out given their cultural differences with the rest of iraqis), it was not for this reason in-and-of-itself that they provoked saddam's ire. equally so with iraq's shia marsh arabs: they revolted with iranian support and were also surpressed, but not strictly *because* they were shia but *because* they revolted.
either way, however, these aren't the individual groups that the Times has earmarked for slaughter should we pull out. the kurds are the most heavily armed and organized group of the lot, and it would take a joint iranian, iraqi, turkish and possibly even syrian effort to break kurdistan--only iraq just isn't anywhere near being able to mount anything like that, and the other countries don't have the stones or organizational skills to do it. the Times has predicted widespread bloodshed in baghdad in particular, a city that simply does *not* have the history of sectarian violence it is currently beset by.
Posted by: j at September 25, 2007 12:39 AM (Qj9lw)
71
"The Sunni dominated the Shia economically as a result of their political power."
again, true, but it is a stretch to try and link that to the spate of sectarian violence currently plaguing the country, for the simple reason that now, NO ONE has the power. the multi-sect gov't is impotent, which means ALL (non-kurdish) iraqis feel impotent. *the coalition presence* seems to be the catalyst here, folks, in encouraging the sectarianism, and there is no reason to believe that that can't be alleviated by a coalition withdrawal. the longer we stay, however, the more bad blood is sown and the harder it will be for ANY future sharing of power.
Posted by: j at September 25, 2007 12:51 AM (Qj9lw)
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You need to study your history, J.
In the mid-9th century the Abbasid caliphate began a slow decline. Turkic warrior slaves known as Mamluks became so prominent at the caliph’s court that they almost monopolized power. In 945 the Buwayhids, an Iranian Shia dynasty, conquered Baghdād. However, they allowed the Abbasid caliph to remain in office as a symbol of continuity and legitimacy. In 1055 the Seljuks, a Turkic Sunni clan, drove out the Buwayhids and reestablished Sunni rule in Baghdād. The Seljuks respected the Abbasid caliph but allowed him to be only a figurehead. At the end of the 11th century Seljuk power started to decline.
In 1258 Baghdād was conquered and sacked by Hulagu, grandson of the great Mongol conqueror Genghis Khan. Hulagu had the caliph executed along with large numbers of Muslim clerics. Mongol horse cavalry and governmental neglect wrought havoc with the elaborate irrigation system that the Abbasids had established. Iraq became a neglected frontier area ruled from the Mongol capital of Tabrīz in Persia. In 1335 the last great Mongol ruler of this region died, and anarchy prevailed. The Turkic conqueror Tamerlane sacked Baghdād in 1401, again massacring many of its inhabitants.
Ottoman Turkish and Iranian rulers vied for supremacy in Iraq until the Ottoman Empire finally secured control in the 17th century. The region was brought under Persian control in 1508. The Ottoman Turks conquered much of it in 1534. The Persians recaptured Baghdād and large parts of Iraq in 1623, holding them until 1638, when Iraq was again brought under Ottoman rule. For almost three centuries thereafter Iraq was part of the Ottoman Empire.
Courtesy MSN Encarta encyclopedia.
To summarize:
945: Shia take over.
1055: Sunni take over.
1258: Mongols take over, rule from Persia (modern day Iran).
1355: Anarchy.
1401: Turks take over with a massacre. Persian and Turkish rulers fight over Iraq for decades.
1508: Persia finally gains the upper hand.
In short, the ancient history of Iraq is one of almost constant warfare among the various tribes in the area. The only thing that stopped the warfare was the Ottoman Empire taking over and placing a heavy iron boot on the tribes, a tradition that continued through the British occupation and on to Saddam's day.
If we leave now, there is every possibility that those ancient tribal feuds will start up again.
Posted by: C-C-G at September 25, 2007 09:16 AM (sOYAM)
73
J - You showed a brief spark of hope there but now you've gone back to displaying industrial stength stupid, conflating history with current behavior. No sectatian violence in Baghdad under Sadaam, why should there be any now if we leave?
Doh! Could it be brutal repression of regime opponents during his regime had anything to do with keeping the population cowering in fear? What's a few rape and torture rooms and mass graves between friends, after all? Relatives disappear? Don't worry, it's probably not because thet're from the wrong sect or tribe or said something against Sadaam, everyone is free to intermingle, intermarry and express their views here.
Do you actually believe what you write?
Posted by: daleyrocks at September 25, 2007 09:54 AM (0pZel)
74
Just a fun one... Un-PC as Hell but it sticks in my mind: when asked abouit Iraq and the Iraqis, my best friend Lil Country responded vis-a-vis Saddam and his way of treating the population of Iraq
"Not that I would ever condon Saddam or his murderous tendancies... I totally UNDERSTAND it... three months here in Baghdad and I'm ready to commit genocide!"
Posted by: Big Country at September 25, 2007 11:45 AM (8dJDM)
75
Daley, J writes out of ignorance. Ignorance of the history of Iraq (as I pointed out this morning), ignorance of what is currently going on there, and just plain general issue ignorance.
Mind you, if he would arm himself with the facts he may in fact be intelligent enough to draw a valid conclusion from them; I cannot say, because his aforementioned ignorance makes it impossible to determine his intelligence.
Posted by: C-C-G at September 25, 2007 06:48 PM (sOYAM)
76
Oooh, looky! A new troll! Or perhaps an old one with a new sock, if ya get my drift... time will tell.
Posted by: C-C-G at September 26, 2007 09:01 PM (sOYAM)
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All in the Framing
Nebraska state Senator Ernie Chambers has sued God, (
who has since responded?). The file AP photo (and there appears to be
only one) has a rather
interesting composition, don't it?
I guess I should be glad that he's an icon to somebody, but to me, the imagery blows cold.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
05:57 AM
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1
The senator better be careful, the Deity has a way of pointing out that the position is already filled.
Posted by: Retread at September 21, 2007 08:37 AM (P/AfD)
2
"God is dead" --Nietzsche.
"Nietzsche is dead" --God.
Posted by: C-C-G at September 21, 2007 09:01 AM (lo4eE)
3
I don't know... a 'defective product' suit for this freely given out thing called 'planet earth' would be a better way to go. Poorly designed, causes untold problems, loss of life and property. And intentionally designed to be defective, with foreknowledge that it would, indeed, cause such harm. That puts all responsibility on the maker! Plus *no product manual*, which causes all sorts of problems and would have ameliorated a great many things. And as the deific being wanted all these languages, it should very well be able to get a translated version for each and every language, too.
Yes, a class action lawsuit with indemnification *or* transfer of all individuals on planet earth to a planet that works properly and is well documented.
Then there are the problems with the rest of the cosmos... intentionally leaving debris from creation just wandering around... not even cleaning up the workplace and leaving it in a hazardous condition! I can hear the excuses of it being a 'rush job' to be done in less than 7 days! And *who* was making this deific being overwork? Poorly designed, sloppy workmanship, intended to cause harm, undocumented... yes, I do believe a real case could be made...
Posted by: ajacksonian at September 21, 2007 09:46 AM (oy1lQ)
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September 20, 2007
A Journalistic Farce
Today is the two-month anniversary of Franklin Foer claiming that he and The New Republic would run an honest investigation into the claims made in a story written by Scott Thomas Beauchamp:
Several conservative blogs have raised questions about the Diarist "Shock Troops," written by a soldier in Iraq using the pseudonym Scott Thomas. Whenever anybody levels serious accusations against a piece published in our magazine, we take those charges seriously. Indeed, we're in the process of investigating them. I've spoken extensively with the author of the piece and have communicated with other soldiers who witnessed the events described in the diarist. Thus far, these conversations have done nothing to undermine--and much to corroborate--the author's descriptions. I will let you know more after we complete our investigation.
--Franklin Foer
Editor Foer has also argued on July 26 that the article "was rigorously edited and fact-checked before it was published."
Since that time, a few things have happened:
- It has been conclusively proven that The New Republic did not fact-check a claim made in a previous "Scott Thomas" story, even though that claim was an allegation of murder. A simple Google Search would have proven the basis for the claim categorically false on the first two pages of results. It was 30 seconds they didn't take.
- The first claim made in "Shock Troops," was that "Thomas" and a fellow soldier verbally abused a burn victim at Forward Operating Base (FOB) Falcon because combat left them desensitized to basic human decency and dignity. After it was noted that no such woman has ever been at FOB Falcon, the story was changed to another base, in another country, at a time before the unit saw combat. This of course, completely undermines the premise of the claim, and Foer’s claim that the article had been "rigorously edited and fact-checked." As it turns out, both military personnel and civilian contractors at the Kuwaiti base also dispute the story having occurred there, either. They state on the record that no soldier or civilian contractor matching this description has ever been at this base, and that the story is an urban legend or myth. This was told to TNR editor Jason Zengerle. Zengerle never relayed that to the readers of The New Republic. No such woman has ever been found, and yet TNR has yet to have the decency to retract this claim.
- A second claim made in "Shock Troops" by Thomas was that while his unit excavated ground for the creation of a new combat outpost, that the remains of children were uncovered, and one soldier in his unit wore part of a rotting child's skull on his head for amusement. Neither Foer nor any other editor at TNR have been able to substantiate this claim. An official U.S Army investigation that was launched primarily because of this specific claim found no credible evidence for this or the other claims made by "Thomas." Two months later, TNR has not issued a retraction for this claim.
- A third claim made by "Thomas" in "Shock Troops" was that a Bradley armored vehicle driver used the 25-ton tracked vehicle to crush "curbs, concrete barriers, corners of buildings, stands in the market, and his favorite target: dogs." Since this time, every Bradley IFV commander and driver in Alpha Company has refuted this story as part of the military investigation, and Bradley IFV experts, including active duty and retired drivers and commanders, and even the company's spokesman, have stated that the vehicle could not perform the actions described in the story. Once again, Franklin Foer and The New Republic has had two months to substantiate this claim. They have failed, and yet still lack the decency to print a retraction.
The honorable thing to do when a publication cannot substantiate the claims made by one of their writers is to retract the claims made in the disputed article, and all previous articles by the same author where questionable facts cannot be corroborated. There is a simple reason for this: credibility is a publication's only real currency, and if they tarnish their credibility, then the unreliable publication becomes worthless as a news source.
The
New York Times realized this when Jayson Blair was caught plagiarizing and fabricating elements of many of his stories. Blair, executive editor Howell Raines, and managing editor Gerald M. Boyd eventually resigned as a result of the fallout of scandal. When Jack Kelly was caught fabricating stories at
USA Today, publisher Craig Moon ran an investigation and issued a front-page apology. Editor Karen Jurgensen and News section managing editor Hal Ritter resigned as a result.
But what is occurring at
The New Republic seems to far exceed the actions of a single rogue journalist, and instead seem to point to an editorial staff as corrupted as the fabulist they seek to protect.
Unlike the Blair and Kelly scandals, editors from
The New Republic seem to be involved in deliberately covering up, shutting down, and stonewalling possible avenues of approach, and are clearly more interested in stifling an investigation that conducting one.
On August 2,
The New Republic released "
A Statement on Scott Thomas Beauchamp" (Beauchamp had "outed" himself on July 26).
In that statement, the editors of
The New Republic had claimed to have interviewed a number of experts that corroborated the claims made in "Shock Troops."
All of Beauchamp's essays were fact-checked before publication. We checked the plausibility of details with experts, contacted a corroborating witness, and pressed the author for further details. But publishing a first-person essay from a war zone requires a measure of faith in the writer. Given what we knew of Beauchamp, personally and professionally, we credited his report. After questions were raised about the veracity of his essay, TNR extensively re-reported Beauchamp's account.
In this process, TNR contacted dozens of people. Editors and staffers spoke numerous times with Beauchamp. We also spoke with current and former soldiers, forensic experts, and other journalists who have covered the war extensively. And we sought assistance from Army Public Affairs officers. Most important, we spoke with five other members of Beauchamp's company, and all corroborated Beauchamp's anecdotes, which they witnessed or, in the case of one solider, heard about contemporaneously. (All of the soldiers we interviewed who had first-hand knowledge of the episodes requested anonymity.)
Tellingly,
The New Republic would not divulge the names of the experts they vaguely claimed supported the claims made in "Shock Troops."
One of them was credited by TNR thusly:
TNR contacted the manufacturer of the Bradley Fighting Vehicle System, where a spokesman confirmed that the vehicle is as maneuverable as Beauchamp described.
One week later, that unnamed spokesman
was found. After being identified, Doug Coffey of BAE systems revealed that as it related to him,
TNR's investigation was a whitewash:
To answer your last question first, yes, I did talk to a young researcher with TNR who only asked general questions about "whether a Bradley could drive through a wall" and "if it was possible for a dog to get caught in the tracks" and general questions about vehicle specifications.
The New Republic had not asked Coffey about the claims made by Beauchamp
at all.
Once provided with the claims made in "Shock Troops," Coffey found the claims relating to his company’s vehicle
very hard to believe.
By August 11, unable to corroborate any element of a story they claimed to have "rigorously edited and fact-checked before it was published," the editors of
The New Republic went on the offensive,
claiming:
...we continue to investigate the anecdotes recounted in the Baghdad Diarist. Unfortunately, our efforts have been severely hampered by the U.S. Army. Although the Army says it has investigated Beauchamp's article and has found it to be false, it has refused our--and others'--requests to share any information or evidence from its investigation. What's more, the Army has rejected our requests to speak to Beauchamp himself, on the grounds that it wants "to protect his privacy."
Like the August 2 story using hidden experts, this claim by the editors of
The New Republic was also deceptive.
The Army has a legal obligation not to release the investigation's findings, with confidentiality being Beauchamp's right. Further, it was
Beauchamp himself that declined to be interviewed by
The New Republic. The Army did not reject
TNR, Private Beauchamp rejected
The New Republic... and obviously still does today.
By being deceptive and argumentative since the beginning (a tragic flaw of hubris that the magazine also had preceding the Stephen Glass scandal almost a decade prior) of their investigation,
The New Republic editorial staff have destroyed their credibility.
They attempted to cover up the fact that they did not fact check Beuchamp’s articles prior to publication, and even attempted to cover up the fact that the author was married to a
TNR fact-checker. Faced with legitimate questions about the veracity of claims made by their author, the editors instead attacked those raising these questions, while at the same time running a whitewash of an investigation designed to give them rhetorical cover instead of uncovering the facts.
Ultimately, it seems that even the author won't support the articles, and
The New Republic is left twisting in the wind, hoping that noone will notice just how naked, exposed, and yes,
corrupt they have been over the course of this sordid story.
The editorial staff of
The New Republic, led for the last time by Franklin Foer, should retract all three stories penned by Scott Thomas Beauchamp, apologize profusely to the readership of
The New Republic for deceiving them for over two months, and resign.
It remains to be seen if they retain that much integrity.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
11:08 AM
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1
Thanks for keeping up to date on this.
As far as TNR goes, it appears they're more interested in printing anti-war propaganda than actual facts.
They must believe that at this point to print a retraction will gain them nothing. They did what they set out to do, which is to cast the military in a bad light.
Seems like a pattern, doesn't it? Same tactics as MoveOn.org
Posted by: Deanj at September 20, 2007 09:17 PM (ROS00)
2
It seems astonishing that TNR has gotten away with this for so long, but perhaps it's an indication that the magazine really doesn't matter much.
Posted by: NewcombCarlton at September 20, 2007 09:29 PM (ytRXE)
3
I canceled my subscription over this, angrily because I love Stanley Kauffmann and Jed Perl, film and art critics, and had subscribed for 25 years.
Needless to say, I am still receiving the magazine in my mailbox and probably am still being counted in their circulation figures.
Posted by: David Clemens at September 20, 2007 09:46 PM (MT7GZ)
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They're in hedgehog mode. If they admit what they know then, as a ritual, heads must roll. Foer's first among them. That means he's out of a job .
It could well be that the present owner are looking for a replacement . Then again perhaps not.
This kind of lag usually means they're hoping it will all blow over and be but a chunk of fading echoes in the blogs. Unless someother large entity such as a cable network, WaPo, or whatever takes it up they're probably safe. After all, there's not really much circulation or money at stake.
Reputation? They don't give a fig.
Posted by: vanderleun at September 20, 2007 09:52 PM (ULUsu)
5
Give 'em hell, CY!
It's been fascinating to watch this play out. It's also been something of a turning point for me.
What with this TNR affair, the MoveOn ad, the Hamsher spanking of Elizabeth Edwards, and the complete elbows-high never-give-a-inch defense of the anti-war folks in the blogs, I realize that these people gave up on intellectual integrity quite some time ago.
Posted by: huxley at September 20, 2007 10:42 PM (QHkH+)
6
But we all know the usual leftist wiener strategy when caught in a deception, inconsistency or self contradiction (which is almost all the time).
Step 1. Pivot and attack. When that fails...
Step 2. Stonewall for a long time.
Step 3. "You're _still_ talking about that? That's SO in the past. It's time for you to move on. If it makes you feel better, you were right all along. Does that make you feel better? Ha ha, I didn't mean it!
Step 4. When all of the above fails, point your nose in the air, yawn and then sneer. That won't convince a hard nosed conservative, but your leftist friends will applaud. And that's all that counts.
Posted by: Carl Hardwick at September 20, 2007 11:31 PM (27li9)
7
The plan here is obvious. Beauchamp will remain silent until he is dischaged, then claim everything he wrote was true and he was threatened with great harm by the Army if he spoke the truth. TNR will run an expose of the Army's treatment of Beauchamp, and Beauchamp will write a book about it.
Posted by: Elliot at September 20, 2007 11:51 PM (Y9JMS)
8
Hey, c'mon guys, the story was "fake but accurate" just like Dan Rather's memos. BTW, he still says there's no proof the memos were fake! Then there's the Muslim Mourning Mama that cries at every event in the Arab world, the fictional productions of "attacks" in Palestine that are presented as news footage, faked rocket attacks on ambulances, it's amazing to me that the Lieberals in this country are more concerned with what fits their agenda than the truth. Or is that troof? I'm so confused...
Robert
Posted by: Robert at September 21, 2007 01:09 AM (vrDK+)
9
I figured you would call on Franklin Foer to resign, but the entire "editorial staff"? Who, then, would run the magazine (or what's left of it)? The circulation manager?
Posted by: Brian at September 21, 2007 04:41 AM (FIPaC)
10
You missed one thing that's happened, Bob:
The magazine fired the individual that leaked the fact that PV-nothin' Beauchump's connection to the magazine was not an arms'-length, due-diligence, professional relationship, but that he was hooked up with one of the mag's fact-checkers.
While they were within their rights to fire this guy, it speaks volumes that they were desperate to conceal this fact. You haven't "reported" or "re-reported" a questionable story very thoroughly if you're determined to keep secret why it was reported in the first place.
As far as Brian's question. "the whole editorial staff?", I'm not sure who's been involved comprehensively, but the Beauchump fabrications have been defended vigorously (and dishonestly) not just by Fabricating Frank Foer, but also by Jason Zengerle and even Marty Peretz. Certainly the stonewall and the fake re-investigation would need approval at all editorial levels to include the publisher.
One more instance of Ben Franklin's prescience, perhaps: this fish rots from the head.
One result in my case: I followed a link from an A-list blogger to an interesting story two days ago, and found myself on TNR. I clicked right back without wasting my time. Until they clean house, they're not trustworthy.
Re: Robert's Dan Rather comparison. The Dan just did it again with a fake but accurate, heh, story on the Boeing 787. I'm sure Peter Arnett is still out their making up war atrocities, too. TNR could hire both and improve its credibility!
Janet Cook's out there somewhere, also. The world is full of replacements for Fabricating Frank.
Posted by: Kevin R.C. 'Hognose' O'Brien at September 21, 2007 07:04 AM (LkeNv)
11
That's an amazingly stupid question, Brian.
If the owners of TNR are still interested in running a credible and reputable magazine, they should replace the current editorial staff of frauds and liars with an entirely new staff composed of ethical and honest journalists.
If the owners of TNR are not still interested in running a credible and reputable magazine, they should admit this fact and shut the damn thing down.
Continuing to run the magazine with the current editorial staff is out of the question, unless the editors announce a change to the tabloid format and start marketing the publication in the checkout lines of grocery stores. I hear that the rack space formerly occupied by the Weekly World News is available.
Posted by: Pat at September 21, 2007 07:11 AM (0suEp)
12
I emailed letters@tnr.com to suggest that they hire Dan Rather.
He makes stuff up--he'd be perfect as a TNR diarist!!
Posted by: Jim,MtnViewCA,USA at September 21, 2007 09:43 AM (ujtAv)
13
Trackbacked by The Thunder Run - Web Reconnaissance for 09/21/2007
A short recon of what’s out there that might draw your attention, updated throughout the day...so check back often.
Posted by: David M at September 21, 2007 10:36 AM (gIAM9)
Posted by: Jim Treacher at September 22, 2007 03:53 AM (0jtcT)
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Yeah, and ain't it terrible how Senators Clinton (D-Whitewater), Kerry (D-Cambodia), and Edwards (D-Hairstylist's shop) were fooled by that idiot Dubya? -lol-
Try another blade, Redleg, that one ain't cutting.
Posted by: C-C-G at September 22, 2007 11:50 AM (lo4eE)
16
that's it, redleg? your best defense of tnr is that bush and cheney "lied"? i can see the new banner now "we don't lie any more than bush". that should sell well.
how pathetic. and with friends like you, franky et al don't really need any enemies.
Posted by: iconoclast at September 22, 2007 03:07 PM (TzLpv)
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September 19, 2007
Shelf-Life: How Long Can a WMD-Armed SCUD Remain Fueled?
According to Janes Defence Weekly and carried in the Jerusalem Post, a Syrian SCUD-C missile exploded while being armed with a chemical warhead in late July, spreading a lethal mix of nearby WMDs. Dozens were killed:
Proof of cooperation between Iran and Syria in the proliferation and development of weapons of mass destruction was brought to light Monday in Jane's Defence Weekly, which reported that dozens of Iranian engineers and 15 Syrian officers were killed in a July 23 accident in Syria.
According to the report, cited by Channel 10, the joint Syrian-Iranian team was attempting to mount a chemical warhead on a Scud missile when the explosion occurred, spreading lethal chemical agents, including sarin nerve gas.
As you may imagine, other bloggers are
tracking this story, and Ynet news adds detail, including that the specific warhead in question was loaded with
mustard gas, and that the explosion started due to a fire in the Scud-C's engine.
Chemically and historically, most weaponized mustard gas weapons retain their lethality for decades, but I'd still like to know the answer to some questions about the missile's fuel system to gauge how much of a direct threat this was or wasn't to Israel and to American forces in Iraq.
SCUD-C missiles are single-stage liquid-fueled missiles. Obviously, an empty missile does not catch fire and explode with enough force to detonate surrounding materials. Therefore, this SCUD-C was obviously fueled. This leads to the following questions:
- How are these missiles typically stored in peace-time Syria, full of liquid propellant, or empty?
- Is there any sort of practical shelf-life to the liquid fuels used to power Syrian SCUD-C missiles?
- Are they capable of being stored full of fuel for extended periods of time, or are they only fueled shortly before launch?
The mere act of mounting a mustard gas warhead on a missile does not necessarily mean that an attack is imminent, but if we knew more about how long a loaded Syrian SCUD-C can remain fueled, we might have a better idea just how serious of a threat this may have been.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
08:29 AM
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The SCUD-C varient was designed for a fuel/oxidizer combination of unsymmetrical dimethylhydrazine (UDMH) and red fuming nitric acid (RFNA) http://hypersonics.wordpress.com/page/2/ , similar to the the fuel/oxidizer used for the Titan II ICBM (UDMH and nitrogen tetroxide). This fuel/oxidizer pairing had several advantages over other liquid fuels; it could be stored in the launch vehicle at room temperatures - unlike liquid oxygen or hydrogen, which would "boil off" over a fairly short period - and could keep a rocket or missile "tanked" and ready to fire for long periods. The Titan II could be launched within one minute (and most of that time would be spent in "spinning up" and testing the guidance system). Another advantage is the "hypergolic" nature of the fuel pair; no ignition system is required. When the fuel/oxidizer meet in the motor's combustion chamber, they ignite. The main drawback to this fuel pair is the toxicity and corrosiveness of the components. Titan II's had to be periodically detanked and their systems checked for corrosion and regular preventative maintenance performed. How much would you be willing to bet that regular PM was done on the SCUD-C in question?
Posted by: JT at September 19, 2007 09:47 AM (HO6Is)
2
In light of the comment above, does anyone have any information about the maintenance capabilities of the armies of the various middle-eastern regimes?
Do they follow the maintenance protocols? My understanding of some ME culture is that they don't. Is it really possible that they are playing with things that they don't understand? Are they reaching their technical limits?
Posted by: thgrant at September 19, 2007 10:38 AM (pAn0a)
3
all information i've heard as to their maintentance procedures is anecdotal and/or apocryphal.
that beind said, it's consistent in that they're lacidasial about things, with the comment that "inshallah is like manana, but without the urgency".
my question is why were they messing with the warhead on a fueled missle? knowing the dangers of the fuel, i'd think you'd want to attach the payload first, erect the missle, then fuel it when you're ready to fire. this supports the supposition that they're out of their league.
redc1c4
Posted by: redc1c4 at September 19, 2007 11:25 AM (IWoUD)
4
Trackbacked by The Thunder Run - Web Reconnaissance for 09/19/2007
A short recon of what’s out there that might draw your attention, updated throughout the day...so check back often.
Posted by: David M at September 19, 2007 12:08 PM (gIAM9)
5
redc1c4
Well I think the fact it exploded in a dozen engineer's faces is evidence they were out of their league. My question is: How many are good to go towards Israel at any time?
Posted by: Greg Howe at September 19, 2007 12:31 PM (AjPTR)
6
Although I suspect the missle was fueled, that is not necessarily so. In order to disperse the fuel the warhead itself has several lbs of explosive and a proximity fuse. If some dope accidentally armed the warhead, it would find itself appoximately close to the ground and go off all by itself, spreading the gas throughout the nearby environs.
As for maintenance, I can only talk about the 1920's Brigade in Iraq who keep their weapons in excellent order, so I suspect the Syrians have some kind of maintenace program.
Posted by: David at September 19, 2007 01:29 PM (K8BtQ)
7
I think we cannot make the assumption that the missile exploded because it was fueled or being fueled. Reading the J-Post article, there's little detail as to what specifically caused the explosion. Even a chemical warhead would most likely have a HE bursting charge to disperse the chemical. As for the competance of the Syrian military, if they are anything like the Jordanians, I would find them less than proficient.
Posted by: BohicaTwentyTwo at September 19, 2007 01:51 PM (oC8nQ)
8
When I had questions about the Iraqi T.O.E./order of battle etc..... I got good info from Bill R @ www.longwarjournal.org/ He's a font o'knowledge.
He's currently imbedded in Iraq, but he may have some insight. Bob, d'you wanna e-mail him or ya want me to?
Posted by: Jack C at September 19, 2007 02:05 PM (Z10aw)
9
Thanks, JT. That was a question I was thinking about - what is the corrosive effect of keeping a liquid fueled missile fueled on its seals and valves? Placing that vis-a-vis Soviet quality control, age of the missile and its components, and Syrian maintenance protocols is a good place to start looking for the answer to what happened.
Just considering the safety/quality history of Soviet submarine reactors makes me wonder what that is with their equipment handed over to others that have 'inshallah' as an excuse.
Posted by: Mikey NTH at September 19, 2007 04:22 PM (kAnhF)
10
thgrant:
This article may answer your questions.
http://www.unc.edu/depts/diplomat/AD_Issues/amdipl_17/articles/deatkine_arabs1.html
Posted by: Mikey NTH at September 19, 2007 04:25 PM (kAnhF)
11
In case the link can't be patched in, the article can be found under the title "Why Arab Armies Lose Wars" by Norvell B. De Atkine.
Posted by: Mikey NTH at September 19, 2007 04:27 PM (kAnhF)
12
I used to know the exact specs on this ..but I do recall that the SCUD was not kept fueled too long because of the corrosive nature of the fuel. If they kept it in a fueled state too often/too long, it would then require major refitting of the fuel tanks and system. For what it is worth - fueling up the SCUDs used to be a major I & W of bad things.
Posted by: GraySix at September 19, 2007 04:43 PM (Q6uje)
13
We also should not discount the possibility that the explosion was purposeful, i.e. sabotage.
Posted by: ThomasD at September 19, 2007 05:53 PM (HDgen)
14
I have a couple of questions. Did Syria already have chemical agents? If not, where did this come from? I would assume Iran most likely but weren't there reports of Saddam shipping this stuff to Syria prior to the war??
Posted by: Old Tanker at September 19, 2007 07:29 PM (EXT6w)
15
Tanker, indeed there are reports of trucks going from Iraq to Syria.
There have also been stockpiles of mustard gas found in Iraq.
Coincidence? You decide.
Posted by: C-C-G at September 19, 2007 07:41 PM (lo4eE)
16
Put together a basic WMD and missile production/storage list for Syria awhile ago. Currently Syria is using a SCUD-D/NoDong II variant that they have been working on for some time, and have had at least two tests on it. As noted by others they continue to build/mainatain the "C" variant.
The main production area for Vx/Sarin is the al-Safira site, which is also a SCUD production facility and is most likely the site where the 'accident' happened. Others sites for this include: the underground bunker/storage facilities/possible production area at Tal Snan, the Khan Abu Shamat underground missile storage site and the elusive al-Baida site, which is the rumored destination of Saddam's research equipment.
Syria utilizes its phosphate deposits for the trifecta of resources: as a basis for their nerve gas industry, research into biotoxins and refinement, via the MEAB site near Homs to concentrate uranium to 'yellowcake'. Although the Chinese reactor they purchased in the early '90s is strictly a 'research' reactor, Syria was actively shopping around for better from Argentina under Menem. During the 1970's Syria purchased Soviet nerve gas warhead designs from Egypt when Egypt was getting rid of their program. It has been hinted by a few sources that they upgraded those to spin-mix in flight warheads, so that they are binary (like the Egyptian design) but can mix in flight for better completion to nerve agents. Either design has a multi-year shelf life, with maintenance.
As noted in the de Atkine article, Syria has the least capable of all conventional military forces in the ME, and has utilized chemical weapons as a 'balance' to make up for that deficiency.
Ray Robison pointed out an article last year on the nuclear program of Syria, and UK sources point to a gathering of nuclear scientists from Iran, Syria, Saddam's group, and ex-Soviet Republics in Syria, near Haskha. Possibly at the Deir Zzor agricultural facility.
Last part is the Mitutoyo separators and precision instrumentation sold into the AQ Khan network. Approximately 10,000 were sold by Mitutoyo from 1995 onwards, and a good fraction of those went into the AQ Khan network. Some wound up in Libya and Iran, but the trans-shipment of them via Malaysia and Dubai makes tracing them impossible.
Posted by: ajacksonian at September 19, 2007 08:26 PM (oy1lQ)
17
I don't buy mustard gas. It's not that fatal. Some reports point to sarin.
Saddam used to load his binaries at the point of use, using "volunteers". Don't know if that would be the case with Syria.
It may be that they were loading the binary version of sarin and had a work accident. Then again, a big enough explosion of fuel would be enough to kill plenty and no gas would need to be involved at all.
Posted by: Chuck Simmins at September 19, 2007 10:17 PM (hASmp)
18
Chuck they were loading a mustard gas warhead when the rocket exploded, blowing apart all sort of nice things they had nearby, including sarin and VX.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at September 19, 2007 10:22 PM (HcgFD)
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September 18, 2007
Wife of Downed Pilot Blasts Media/Terrorist Propaganda
As Rusty notes, the media largely ignores her.
Several of the local Arizona media outlets (
AZ Family (NBC),
KPNX,
AZ Central) carried the story, but several other local media outlets including the local
Fox News,
CBS, and
ABC affiliates did not.
No national media outlets have carried the story at all.
Her absolute moral authority apparently doesn't matter as much as that of some.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
07:40 PM
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Iraqi Insider: Blackwater Firestorm All About Internal Politics
I sent the following last night to a source intimately familiar with the Iraqi Interior Ministry:
...could the sudden [Iraqi government political] attack on Blackwater possibly be in retaliation for the "Jones Commission" report that panned the Iraqi Ministry of the Interior and advocated disbanding the national police?
...I would not be surprised if the backlash over Sunday's shooting was planned, and waiting for an event to pin it on.
I wanted to know if the situation with Blackwater "smelled."
His response:
Bob,
Blackwater doesn't smell: It's all about internal politics.
Bolani walks a thin line: he is a Shia without strong party
affiliations. He was the least objectionable Shia to a Sunni minority
who knew they'd never get one of their own into that Ministry.
Bolani is beholden to MNSTC-I/CPATT for supplies, training and money
-- but he also needs support in Parliament and among tribal leaders to
get things done (recruiting, intelligence and minimizing attacks on his
police officers as they try to establish peace).
By attacking Blackwater and standing up to the US over this, he gains
internal support for projects that the US can't help him with. He'll
eventually back down because he can't stay where he is without US
support, but he can't advance internal security without assistance
from other groups as well.
I predict this will end in a compromise: a few people will be fired,
Blackwater will ratchet down their posture a bit and the mission will
continue.
Related thoughts
here.
Update: Bryan has an excellent roundup on this subject at
Hot Air, and there is more about contractor licensing at the
Washington Times
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
07:03 PM
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In the US you don't have to pay a bribe. You just need to pay your lawyer to talk to their lawyer, which your lawyer should be able to because he used to work for the lawyer you need to get to.
Unless there is a problem, then you might have to pay more.
Other than that, everything is so much better.
Posted by: Paul from Florida at September 18, 2007 10:05 PM (19KRD)
2
Paul: Well, yes it is, because in the US we generally manage to avoid the whole "killing lots of people" part of it.
CY: Thanks, that's very interesting.
Posted by: Shelby at September 19, 2007 11:13 AM (JyRRP)
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Fabulist, Junior?
According to his web page, Scott Thomas Beauchamp and his wife, The New Republic fact checker Elspeth Reeve, are apparently expecting a child.
The
TNR fabulist/Army private has the following posted on his
MySpace page:
""SCOTT BEAUCHAMP CLAIMS TO DESIRE THE BABIES OF ELSPETH, HIS SUPPOSED WIFE!""
He includes as his interests "raptors having babies." His wife,
TNR fact-checker Elspeth Reeve uses a raptor (a kind of dinosaur) as the avatar for
her MySpace page.
Beauchamp first came to light when a story he wrote entitled "
Shock Troops," alleging the barbarity of his fellow soldiers,
was challenged on July 18 by
The Weekly Standard's Michael Goldfarb.
Since that time, the U.S Army has denounced the claims made in "Shock Troops" as fiction, and Franklin Foer, the editor of
The New Republic, has failed to release the findings of the magazine's internal investigation into the veracity of the stories.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
10:21 AM
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Uhhhh.... dunno about the timeframe on this... Just WHEN did she get pregnant? Just what ISs the timeframe on this? If he's deployed up north, just when the HELL did he get R&R to knock up his bim? Especially since he started as a PFC (E-3) and is now being listed as a PV1 (E-1) which means, at the very least a Article 15 Non-Judicial Punishment which, by the way states:
SUBCHAPTER III. NON-JUDICIAL PUNISHMENT
815. ART. 15. COMMANDING OFFICER'S NON-JUDICIAL PUNISHMENT
(b) Subject to subsection (a) any commanding officer may, in addition to or in lieu of admonition or reprimand, impose one or more of the following disciplinary punishments for minor offenses without the intervention of a court-martial--
(1) upon officers of his command--
(A) restriction to certain specified limits, with or without suspension from duty, for not more that 30 consecutive days;
(B) if imposed by an officer exercising general court-martial jurisdictions or an officer of general flag rank in command--
(i) arrest in quarters for not more than 30 consecutive days;
(ii) forfeiture of not more than one-half of one month's pay per month for two months;
(iii) restriction to certain specified limits, with or without suspension from duty, for not more than 60 consecutive days;
(iv) detention of not more than one-half of one month's pay per month for three months"
There is much more on this... and probably a whole lot more TO this story Bob... but as I said... ANYONE who gets hit with a Alpha One Five as we used to call it usually can forget going on any sort of R&R unless it's to the Stockade we have here on Arifjan.
Things that make you go "Hmmmmmmn...."
Posted by: Big Country at September 18, 2007 11:07 AM (8dJDM)
2
She is definitely pregnant! And even if she isn't, we will assume she is until TNR releases a four year investigation into the matter. Because once we claim something, it is up to them to disprove it.
Posted by: Michael Goldfarb at September 18, 2007 12:45 PM (N2o4T)
3
Why Michael, you switched magazines? I thought you were with the Weekly Standard.
I'd almost think this was some kind of...spoof post.
Posted by: See-Dubya at September 18, 2007 12:55 PM (1gdFs)
4
I appreciate the continuing TNR coverage (holding their feet to the fire and all that) but highlighting details of their private* lives seems petty and pointless.
*even considering you got it off their MySpace pages...
Posted by: Arthur at September 18, 2007 07:40 PM (5J4eX)
5
Arthur, I guess that is a matter of personal opinion, and you are indeed welcome to have yours.
I just found it an interesting side story in the much larger and still developing TNR scandal.
As a father myself, I sincerely hope that the pregnancy goes well and smoothly for Elspeth, and that Beauchamp will be home in time to see his child born.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at September 18, 2007 07:47 PM (HcgFD)
6
notwithstanding the crap he pulled, here's wishing the two of them a very healthy baby...
Posted by: stevesturm at September 18, 2007 07:50 PM (XBWtm)
Posted by: clazy at September 18, 2007 10:04 PM (E3TBA)
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Two Months In: Franklin Foer, Will You Honor Your Word?
Two months ago today, Michael Goldfarb challenged the Scott Thomas story "Shock Troops" posted in the New Republic, igniting a firestorm of criticism by military personnel and bloggers who found the published claims to be less than credible.
In response to growing doubts from critics and his own readers, Franklin Foer, editor of
The New Republic,
stated on July 20:
I've spoken extensively with the author of the piece and have communicated with other soldiers who witnessed the events described in the diarist. Thus far, these conversations have done nothing to undermine--and much to corroborate--the author's descriptions. I will let you know more after we complete our investigation."
Now, almost two months after making that promise and precisely two months after the story was first questioned, Foer has yet to announce the findings of that investigation.
We know that Scott Thomas Beauchamp, the author of the three stories Foer ran in
The New Republic,
had a chance to speak with
The New Republic 12 days ago. We also know that Beauchamp has refused to discuss his original claims with any other media organization, and gave a blanket statement to the PAO to relay to media organizations that he will not discuss the incidents in his stories, period. It appears that Beauchamp will not speak to Franklin Foer any more about these articles, and that he may have frozen him out, perhaps upon the direction of a lawyer.
Foer now knows, or should know, whether or not Beauchamp will stand by his earlier claims.
If he can provide further support for
Shock Troops and the two previous articles, Foer needs to produce it. If he cannot, Franklin Foer owes it to his readers to retract all three of Scott Beauchamp's stories, which a military investigation revealed to be
completely uncorroborated, and portions of which one of the magazine's
own experts found "highly unlikely."
To date, Franklin Foer, Jason Zengerle, and the rest of
The New Republic have been unable to provide so much as a single named expert, a single named witness, or a single concrete fact to support the claims made in "Shock Troops."
I call upon Franklin Foer to honor his word: present the findings of
TNR's investigation.
If you will not, resign.
Update: Lessons unlearned:
The High and Mighty
Just after Baghdad fell in early 2003, CNN ran an astonishing confession on the New York Times’s op-ed page admitting that it had known, but kept secret, some “awful things” about the regime of Saddam Hussein over the years. “Each time I visited, I became more distressed by what I saw and heard—awful things that could not be reported because doing so would have jeopardized the lives of Iraqis, particularly those on our Baghdad staff,” wrote Eason Jordan, CNN’s chief news executive. “I came to know several Iraqi officials well enough that they confided in me that Saddam Hussein was a maniac who had to be removed.” The piece went into some gruesome detail of atrocities CNN “could not report,” for fear of reprisal from the dictator. “I felt awful having these stories bottled up inside me,” he confessed.
Then why didn’t CNN leave Iraq and alert the rest of the world about these “gut-wrenching tales” and atrocities?
For a couple of weeks, other mainstream media reported moral outrage. The New Republic's Franklin Foer shot back that this couldn't even be called a belated outbreak of honesty. "If it were, Mr. Jordan would be portraying CNN as Saddam's victim. He'd be apologizing for its cooperation with Iraq's erstwhile information ministry—and admitting that CNN policy hinders truthful coverage of dictatorships." CNN was, Foer stated, the network of record. "It makes rich reading to return to transcripts and compare the CNN version of Iraq with the reality that has emerged."
The lesson never quite sank in.
Obviously.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
09:59 AM
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Why not go for the full monty honor-wise and do both?
Posted by: Dean Barnett at September 18, 2007 05:03 PM (M7kiy)
2
Dean Barnett
Because that would require morals and ethics, something obviously lacking at The New Republic.
Posted by: doriangrey at September 18, 2007 06:31 PM (KCPpu)
3
Sadly it becomes more and more obvious with every passing day and scandal that EVERYONE who is a "democrat," "liberal" or "progressive" is just a filthy liar. I have many, many lib pals here in Oregon and, alas, I view them all as the worthless filth that Foer et al have proven to be. As Mark Levine says, we ARE in the midst of a culture war and these horrid, lying, miserable scum are the enemy. Sad.
Posted by: vetter at September 18, 2007 06:32 PM (uXHec)
4
It looks like TNR is winning the game. All Franklin Foer has to do is sit tight, keep quiet, and all this will continue to fade away.
Posted by: John at September 18, 2007 06:32 PM (f53l2)
5
I'm afraid John is right. Who's on the case? In time even CY will probably move on to another more important scandal.
Posted by: Capitalist Infidel at September 18, 2007 07:28 PM (Lgw9b)
6
But, the next time TNR publishes something fantabulous, watch how quickly this gets brought up again.
They may think they can avoid it, but like on so many other issues, they are dead wrong.
Posted by: C-C-G at September 18, 2007 07:31 PM (lo4eE)
7
I'm afraid John is right. Who's on the case? In time even CY will probably move on to another more important scandal.
Don't count on this story being remotely close to being closed.
In fact, it is just getting interesting.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at September 18, 2007 07:39 PM (HcgFD)
8
There ya go, CY, showing us some leg again - you got a time frame on the next big reveal?
Even if not a word more on this story was published, TNR's reputation has been severely damaged - and that goes for every writer, editor, staffer, and alumnus who swims in the little pond of professional political intellectuals.
They may think they can front the scandal off for a while, but the bad odor never goes away. Sooner or later, it will affect the bottom line, if it hasn't already - or make it more difficult for the publisher to justify continuing to lose money on their no longer so prestigious "prestige" holding.
Posted by: CK MacLeod at September 18, 2007 09:11 PM (dvksz)
9
C'mon, Foer just wants this whole thing to go away. He's waiting for the day when Elspeth tells him he can come out from under his desk. I've been keeping an eye on this too, ever since I got a response from his 1SG and the PAO in his unit. TNR doesn't want to admit it got punked by a problem child.
Posted by: SFCMAC at September 19, 2007 09:19 AM (y+WIp)
10
Hmmmm.
Frankly I think this low-key nonsense will continue up until Beauchamp gets separated and discharged. Then we'll see that twit come out and proclaim that he was telling the truth all along but was strong-armed by the military and right wing blogs. Whereupon Foer will start braying like a jackass and hoping that new meme will somehow overcome the reality.
No doubt they'll fall on their faces yet again when that happens.
Posted by: memomachine at September 19, 2007 09:28 AM (3pvQO)
11
I noticed Ellie hasn't written anything for TNR since June despite having an active Spring.
Hmmmmm....I wonder why.
Posted by: Sean Bannion at September 19, 2007 11:11 AM (epqk/)
12
I like Dean's idea--Foer both come clean and resign. I don't see how TNR can lay claim to a shred of credibility while Foer's at the helm.
Posted by: Nathan Tabor at September 20, 2007 12:31 AM (Vrju/)
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It's a Trap!
I've avoided commenting on the Blackwater story until this point because there simply wasn't enough detail on this specific incident.
It just got
more interesting:
The ministry said the incident began around midday, when a convoy of sport utility vehicles came under fire from unidentified gunmen in the square. The men in the SUVs, described by witnesses as Westerners, returned fire, the ministry said.
Blackwater's employees were protecting a U.S. official when they were hit by "a large explosive device, then repeated small-arms fire -- and to the point where it disabled one of the vehicles, and the vehicle had to be towed out of the firefight," said Marty Strong, vice president of Blackwater USA.
A senior industry source said Blackwater guards had escorted a State Department group to a meeting with U.S. Agency for International Development officials in Mansour before the shootings.
A car bomb went off about 80 feet (25 meters) from the meeting site and the contractors started evacuating the State Department officials, he said. A State Department report on the attack said the convoy came under fire from an estimated eight to 10 people, some in Iraqi police uniforms.
The guards called for backup, at one point finding their escape route blocked by an Iraqi quick-reaction force that pointed heavy machine guns at one vehicle in the convoy. A U.S. Army force, backed by air cover, arrived about half an hour later to escort the convoy back to the Green Zone, the report states.
A team from another security company passed through the area shortly after the street battle.
"Our people saw a couple of cars destroyed," Carter Andress, CEO of American-Iraqi Solutions Groups, told CNN on Monday. "Dead bodies, wounded people being evacuated. The U.S. military had moved in and secured the area. It was not a good scene."
An Interior Ministry spokesman, Brig. Gen. Abdul Kareem Khalaf, said, "We have revoked Blackwater's license to operate in Iraq. As of now they are not allowed to operate anywhere in the Republic of Iraq. The investigation is ongoing, and all those responsible for Sunday's killing will be referred to Iraqi justice."
According to the new details in this CNN story, the Blackwater contractors were evacuating State Department personnel after a car bomb explosion when they came under small arms fire from 8-10, including personnel in Iraqi police uniforms.
It is far, far too early to think that Blackwater's security detail in this incident are anything close to being cleared, but as at least some of the wounded are admittedly not civilians as mentioned in various accounts, and multiple witnesses describe an explosive device or devices starting the ambush, followed by small arms fire, which is a typical ambush tactic. It appears that this may not be an open-and-shut case of "contractors gone wild" as some have hastily opined.
It is worth noting that the Iraqi government response could be in retaliation for
the "Jones Commission" report released just weeks ago, that panned the Iraqi Ministry of the Interior for corruption and advocated disbanding the national police. I confirmed with an Iraq War analyst last night that it was possible that the backlash over Sunday's shooting (not the shooting itself) was planned in advance in retaliation for the report.
He was not stating that the attack itself was orchestrated to get Blackwater compromised, just that MOI and al-Maliki's government may have had a contingency plan set up to take advantage of such a situation when it arose to wrangle concessions from the State Department, while possibly create some political breathing room for al-Maliki's embattled government coalition.
This very well may have been a
political ambush designed to take advantage of the already foundering reputations of contractors in Iraq, and Blackwater may have been pre-targeted to take advantage of the fact that they are essential to State's security.
Update: Via email this morning from Bill Roggio of
The Long War Journal:
- State uses Blackwater extensively, so this incident gives the Government of Iraq some leverage. I expect State to negotiate to get Blackwater back online, and it will happen.
- Maliki needs political cover, much like he did attacking the US for raids in Sadr City last year. In the end the raids didn't stop. And in the end I think BW will be in operation in Iraq after some wrangling.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
06:01 AM
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You do have to ask, what are we still doing in Iraq? I supported the original effort, but the situation has developed into one that can not be won or will eventually have the same result whether we say or go. If we had the suppor of both US political parties, you could say that an effort could be made. But with the Dems desiring to play games with this complicated situation, the enemy senses division and will continue to exploit it with American lives. I don't really feel that these people are worth American lives and tax dollars. As to stopping terrorist, maybe we should try to secure our nations borders first before we go around the globe stirring up problems.
Posted by: David Caskey at September 18, 2007 07:58 AM (G5i3t)
2
Mr. Caskey, you are either an idiot or a lefty... but I repeat myself.
The situation in Iraq has developed into one where the President can safely land and have a conference in a province that just one year ago was written off as lost.
The situation in Iraq has developed into one where the tribes that previously offered Al Qaeda safe haven are now fighting against AQ.
The situation in Iraq has developed into one where the commanding general can make plans for withdrawing "surge" troops ahead of schedule.
Your ignorance, inadvertent or willing, of these facts has led you to several false conclusions. If you are intellectually honest, you will re-examine your conclusions in light of the facts.
However, I expect you to react like any good little lefty, and spin, obfuscate, or just run away to DKos or DU.
Posted by: C-C-G at September 18, 2007 09:08 AM (lo4eE)
3
By the way, Mr. Caskey, another commenter here (thanks, Neo!) pointed out this very recent Reuters story which provides more good evidence that you have no idea what you are talking about:
The relative calm at the Yarmouk hospital lends weight to U.S. and Iraqi government assertions that a security campaign launched around Baghdad in February has achieved results.
Next time, try to get your news from somewhere other than the Huffington Post.
Posted by: C-C-G at September 18, 2007 09:18 AM (lo4eE)
4
Hmmmm.
The problems in Iraq have always been political ones.
I really have to wonder if we didn't force the creation of a civil government far too soon. It might have been less useful politically but more prudent to have continued the use of a proxy government.
For one thing I think the Sunni and Shia'a would've had much fewer reservations about dealing with a US controlled government since sectarian issues would've been clamped down tight.
Plus this nonsense with the Ministry of the Interior would've been hammered out post haste.
Posted by: memomachine at September 18, 2007 09:49 AM (3pvQO)
5
i think that regardless of where one stands on the war, we could all agree that a large mercenary contingent (ours or someone else's) operates in an area like iraq only to the detriment of US troops, right? i mean, if not for the reason that their contracts siphon off funds earmarked for the effort, than for the reasons that they are hard to keep accountable, are not under US military command, have ever-increasingly co-opted jobs traditionally done by american GIs, and their interactions with iraqis frequently raise the risk-levels for US forces and their allies.
with that said, what possible interest(s) should keep the american public in support of corporate armies like blackwater in iraq? does it not erode troop morale to see blackwater agents getting paid many times more than our troops for doing the same work, and taking the same risks? i can't imagine why CY would not agree with the iraqi gov't's position on at least this one thing, regardless of its motives, and i have yet to speak to a single vet that supports these guys. maybe there are some out there, no doubt, but what general worth his brass has *ever* supported farming out a war to the likes of newbie companies like blackwater? i just don't understand why CY wouldn't be *commending* the broken clock (ie, the iraqi gov't) for being right at least twice a day, esp. on this.
Posted by: j at September 18, 2007 10:35 AM (Qj9lw)
6
wrk -
I think your "Hessians" metaphor is off base.
Blackwater seems to provide bodyguard services, transportation, etc. They are not there to don body armor and go out on night raids or engage the enemy on the field of battle.
Hessians, on the other hand, made up real fighting regiments of the British army.
So, to answer your first question, I believe that after Iraq, Blackwater personal are likely to continue providing beefy security detail contracting in dangerous places around the world, for business people as well as government entities.
Posted by: Marc at September 18, 2007 09:42 PM (zzxGb)
7
j,
The Armed Forces of the USA are increasingly hamstrung by political correctness. A private company under the control of USA commanders is the best way around this.
Private security companies are also ideal for soldiers trained by the USA military but released due to the relentless "up or out" policy.
Just as the National Guard frequently has more experienced and better soldiers who did not wish to be promoted to their level of incompetence in the Regular forces.
Posted by: Looking Glass at September 19, 2007 02:25 AM (dwVwZ)
8
David Caskey,
Iraq is the ideal of strategic offense combined with tactical defense. It's a meatgrinder for terrorists to shove themselves into.
By attacking deployed regular army troops in open country subject to air support the terrorists are fighting in their worst possible tactical environment.
By attacking the terrorists solve the most difficult anti-terrorist problems: identification, processing, tactical handling, justification, final processing with minimal legal intervention.
The USA news media has convinced the terrorists to keep fighting under these conditions.
The surge exploited further weaknesses in terrorist organization. The obvious answer would be to break contact and wait patiently for US forces to withdraw. Media propaganda has helped prevent this.
Posted by: Looking Glass at September 19, 2007 02:29 AM (dwVwZ)
9
Several have reacted negative to my original post and used the time honored response of personal attacks. I can only say that it is indicative of the nature of schools today that they don't seem to be able to produce people who can read, understand what they have read, have any knowledge of history, and are lacking in logic.
If I am being critical of the Dem response to the war and the lack of that party in providing the necessary moral support for continuation of a conflict, then how can I possibly be a lefty (what ever that is as if you claim to be a Republican now then you really are to the left of center). Now if you had said I was a Libertarian then that would be closer to the mark as the current Libertarian ideation is closer to the old Goldwater party. I would suggest that some of you print your responses to my post, look at them in 10 years. Then write a note of apology.
Now as to putting the terrorist in the meat grinder. I seem to remember a film of Muslim terrorist at a funeral and they incorporated a large number of high placed individuals. The military (US) did not bomb the event as it was in a cemetary. That my friends is classic Vietnam 101. Maybe I could understand the military effort if they were allowed to do night patrols which are the bread and butter of eliminating the threats that soldiers face daily. Or if the military did not have to clear a shot with higher authority. I could go on but you should get the idea that it has devolved into a political war that has always proven impossible to win.
Posted by: David Caskey at September 19, 2007 09:55 AM (G5i3t)
10
"The Armed Forces of the USA are increasingly hamstrung by political correctness. A private company under the control of USA commanders is the best way around this."
two thoughts:
1) weak.
2) wow. never thought i'd see a call for the complete dismemberment and privatization of the US armed forces on CY.
Posted by: j at September 19, 2007 05:14 PM (Qj9lw)
11
Mr. Caskey, I see you yourself resort to the time honored tactic of ignoring those points you cannot refute.
As for lefty vs. libertarian, they are very similar in many areas... both vehemently anti-war, for instance, though possibly for different reasons (I cannot discount the possible existence of an isolationist strain on the left nor a yellow-bellied strain in libertarians).
In point of fact, your assessment of progress in Iraq was, and is, 180 degrees out of phase with reality. Please feel free to address that in your next post.
Posted by: C-C-G at September 19, 2007 07:12 PM (lo4eE)
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September 17, 2007
Miami PD Up-Gunning, But At What Cost?
The City of Miami is giving Miami police patrol officers the option of carrying assault rifles:
Patrol officers will have the option of carrying assault rifles as police try to combat the rise in the use of similar weapons by criminals, Miami's police chief said Sunday.
[snip]
Officers interested in the guns will have to undergo two days of training and be certified to use the weapons. The police department doesn't yet have money to purchase the guns, and if officers want to use them now, they will have to pay for them, Timoney said.
[snip]
The Miami Police Department said 15 of its 79 homicides last year involved assault weapons. This year, 12 of the 60 homicides have involved the high-power guns.
On Thursday, a gunman opened fire on four Miami-Dade County police officers with an assault rifle during a traffic stop, killing one and injuring the other three. Police killed the suspect hours later.
Officers using the weapons in Miami will shoot "frangible" bullets, which shatter after they've hit something to avoid striking bystanders or other unintended targets.
Not all officers may choose to carry the new weapon. But, said Timoney: "If I was a police officer out there in a tough neighborhood, I would want to have that in the car."
Video game makers should be thrilled now that the stage has been set for
Medal of Honor: South Beach, but if I was a resident of Miami, I'd be far less than thrilled with the continuing arms race between the police and criminal elements in their city.
I sympathize entirely with the police officers that sometimes feel outgunned by criminals, but feel compelled to state that by escalating to intermediate caliber weapons, and without adequate training, the Miami Police Department is setting the stage for a much greater risk of collateral damage and potential civilian casualties, and that the casualties that are sustained have the potential of being far more lethal becuase of the ammunition being used.
Two days of training to carry an assault rifle in an urban environment is, in my opinion, unforgivably short.
By way of comparison, Gunsite offers a
five-day course for urban rifle training.
Frontsight offers a four-day advanced course the focuses on the urban environment, and it requires either a 2-day or 4-day prerequisite skill-builder course focusing on marksmanship. Other dedicated professional shooting schools offer similar courses of similar length. What makes the Miami PD think that two days training is adequate for their officers to carry carbines in a crowded urban environment, when courses designed for already more-qualified special operations soldiers and SWAT teams takes more than twice as long?
The fact that the Miami Police are not (apparently) receiving adequate training will only compound another problem, that of collateral damage to property and civilians when shootouts occur. Despite what Cheif Timoney says, the laws of physics dictate that bullets will go precisely where they are fired; the have no ability to "avoid" striking anyone, and the weapons he has authorized both extend the range at which innocent bystanders can be hit, and potentially increase the severity of the wounds.
It is a well-documented fact that in the overwhelming majority of officer-involved shootouts, the police miss most of the time, even at near-contact ranges. Amadou Diallo was hit 19 times from 41 shots at close range by NYPD officers armed with Glock pistols firing from just yards away. Simple math tells us that 22 shots completely missed Diallo, and of the 19 shots that hit and killed the unfortunate young man, many of those passed through his body completely and kept going before being stopped by the buildings behind him.
Now keep in mind that the pistols used in the Diallo shooting used relatively short range (typically fired at just 7 yards or less) 9mm pistol ammunition. Miami is going to allow their police officers to carry weapons shooting much longer-ranged (300+ meters) 5.56x45 NATO-caliber weapons with a far greater ability to penetrate the body of the suspect and materials. They hope to mitigate the inherent over-penetration risk by requiring officers to fire frangible ammunition.
Frangible ammunition is great in theory: if it hits the suspect or a hard surface, the bullet is designed to fragment into small pieces. But the theory can become something else in practice, when under-trained officers may empty firearms with magazines containing roughly twice the amount of ammunition they typically carry in their handguns, with more than triple the practical range. It is a proven fact that officers miss more than they hit at short range; is there any reason to suspect that this tendency will decrease even as the potential range increases?
And what of those innocents hit with frangible ammunition? There is another aspect of frangibles that the Miami Police will not likely mention in press releases: frangible bullets are by far the most deadly kind of bullet to those struck by them directly.
Purposefully constructed with thin or weakened brass jackets, frangibles blow apart into many small fragments once they hit a target. In a human being, the effect is to make many small wound channels that shred muscle, bone and organs, similar to a contact-range shotgun blast instead of the larger single hole created by typical bullets.
This is great news if the cop firing the weapon hits the armed suspect, as it will almost guarantee the immediate end of the gunfight if he hits the suspect in the head, torso, or the major part of an extremity, such as the upper arm or thigh. The downside of this is that if the officer misses the target and hits a civilian hundreds of yards away, the odds of the civilian surviving the wound are much less.
So is a change in ammunition enough to rectify this potential problem? By no means. Frangible assault rifle ammunition, for all its lethality on soft targets, is still far safer to shoot in an urban environment than hollowpoint or FMJ rounds with will more readily penetrate structures and vehicles. Frangibles will blow apart; FMJ and even hollowpoint loadings can and will blow through multiple buildings, depending on their construction.
So what is the solution?
The "simple" solution is to recognize that American police forces, no matter how bad the neighborhood, are not soldiers engaged in urban combat. Assault rifles chambered for 5.56 and 7.62 rifles are a horrible choice of weapons from the perspective of the great majority of law-abiding civilians that are
not engaged in shootouts with police.
If Miami and other police forces would like to provide their patrol officers with a longer-range firearm than their duty pistols, the community at large would be far safer if these officers were armed with patrol carbines, small rifles that greatly extend the officers effective range while still using the exact same ammunition and typically the same magazines as their service pistols. Major manufacturers of police-issue sidearms such as Beretta and Ruger already offer such carbines, which provide police officers more range and potential accuracy than they have with their pistols, but with a significant reduction in the risks associated with firing much more powerful rifle rounds in an urban environment.
The City of Miami fails to mention how the militarization of the Miami police is going to make their officers and citizens safer, and does not seem to address the problems that are inherent to their stated plan of giving their officers higher-velocity, longer-ranged weapons with minimal training.
The police are contributing to the prospect of turning Miami into an urban battlefield, which I somehow suspect was not their original intent.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
10:21 AM
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1
Well, we wouldn't like to see incidents like the one in Baghdad on Sunday when the mercena... errmm, heroes of Blackwater USA killed eight innocent Iraqi civilians after their convoy was attacked.
Posted by: Max at September 17, 2007 10:47 AM (VRb5p)
2
There are two options staring the Miami PD in the face as far as CQB weapons:
1. The classic, ubiquitous 12ga shotgun.
2. A 9mm/.45 submachinegun.
Look at what specops operators use in urban situations; Is it too much to ask the Miami PD to follow the example set by the pros?
Posted by: ExUrbanKevin at September 17, 2007 11:08 AM (ppKzH)
3
I worked in a rural county and what rode with me was a Marlin 1894C, a lever action carbine in .357 Mag, the same cartridge as my sevice revolver. Interestingly the longer barrel and lack of a barrel cylinder gap give the bullet out of the carbine the same velocity and energy at a hundred yards that the revolver has at the muzzle or near enough for no nevermind.
Of course I never felt outgunned with a revolver when all the kids were going over to the fashionable Glocks and Sigs.
The real problem is that most LEOs are not shooters, they carry guns but aren't all that interested in learning them. When I hired on we shot practice ammo that was handloaded by the trustees in the county jail, and every Dept with over three people had a pistol team, we got a little extra in the pay envelope for shooting matches. The new gun that would solve all of the law enforcement problems was the S&W .41 Mag with that soft lead semiwadcutter at about 900 fps. The things were so heavy that the only problems they solved was a lack of enough backaches.
The solution isn't hardware, it never has been hardware. A trained shooter can put five hits at a hundred yards just as fast with a good lever actioned rifle as he can with a semiauto. He can get three hits at seven yards just as fast with a DA revolver as with a semiauto handgun.
Why the big move from revolvers to semis? The confiscated drug money. We can't use it for saleries or training, it has to go to equipment so the Depts. with a lot of that money spend it on stuff. Much of which doesn't work as well as the stuff my grandfather carried. Toward the end of my career I would have been fired for wearing Granddad's sap gloves, instead of putting a bad guy down with a backhand I had to wale on him with a baton. Smart, real smart.
Posted by: Peter at September 17, 2007 11:09 AM (M7kiy)
4
So, on one hand the right b*****s about anti-gun folks trying to outlaw assault weapons, because they're just regular rifles that look mean, while at the same time the right b*****s about the police having them, because the guns are so different and dangerous?
How many days of training does your average assault weapon owner receive? Do we not worry about them missing what they're aiming at?
A little consistency please?
Posted by: steve sturm at September 17, 2007 11:19 AM (sWhRW)
5
Point taken, specially seen that the chief is indisposed to officers, drawing their weapons
at all. Timoney, is a former consultant to the
Kroll contractor, curiously enough. On the second point, when your convoy is being mortared,
particularly by Sadrists I think a little leeway
is in order !
Posted by: narciso at September 17, 2007 11:29 AM (M7kiy)
6
Steven, there is zero inconsistancy here, just your williness to conflate two entirely separate issues while you play childish semantic games.
ARs are prefectly fine on a firing range, which is where your average civilian shooter is going to employ his. The police here will be using them in a high-density urban setting where the risk of hitting civilians is greatly inceased.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at September 17, 2007 12:02 PM (WwtVa)
7
The upgrading and militarization of the Local and County Police Departments is worrisome.
In Hillsborough County in FL. after a suspect shot and killed a deputy and a K-9, said perp was hunted down and was found by the Sheriffs SWAT team hiding in a hollowed log. The perp was hit with 96 rounds of 5.56mm fired by 10 officers at a near-point blank range. (Squeegee anyone?)
The amount of damage and sheer quantity of ammo means the escalation is going to get out of control very quickly. Several friends who have served as cops have told me that a number of "excessive force" lawsuits (EG: they shot the dude 40 or 50 times... waaaaay more than was necessary) are caused not by an overzealous shooting cop, but rather by a 'tunnel vision panic' that many undertrained people have... this is essentially that the cop, who may have 20 years on the force but has never been in a shooting situation, finds himself pulling the trigger as fast as he can without any concious control... fine and dandy if said panic shooter is weilding a 6 round Ruger Speed Six wheelgun... a worse situation if they are using a Glock with a 17 round 9mm mag, but an ENTIRELY different situation when sporting an M-4 Bushmaster Carbine with a full load of 30 rounds of 5.56mm... that means a WHOOOOOOOLE lotta B.B.s flying... add in another cop who may or may not know the score and decides that he needs to start pumping in the rounds, and G-Ddamn quick things go to hell in a handbasket. Just look at the shooting of that guy Bell in NYC... one cop took a shot at the car thinking they were trying to run him over... said cop shot more than 3 times and the round near missed ANOTHER cop who heard the "buzz" of the round past his head... he thought HE was being shot at so in turn he opened up, as well as his partner... end result... one unarmed civilian KIA'd and 2 wounded.... and now those cops are looking at Man-1...
And to finish off the rant... two days training? who the hell are they kidding? I'm sure when I'm home on R&R and in Dade county I'm going to be excessively careful around the "Wild Wild West"....
Posted by: Big Country at September 17, 2007 12:23 PM (8dJDM)
8
This came up in a california town about 3 months
ago when it came to public attention that their
officers were issued M-16's...Lot's of complaints.
I have found a few reason.First after 9-11 the
departments wanted their Officers swat capable,
next the 9mm has it's share of problems and the number 1 reason was the LA Bank robbery shoot out.
The robbers got off over 1300 rounds and each one
was shot more than 30 times.Cop's are out guned at
almost every turn.Here in Idaho you can buy almost
anything that shoots,no full auto but anything else goes.Buy the way the cops in that CA.city
carry the M-16 in the trunk and its' a last
resort only...
Posted by: Bobby Lane at September 17, 2007 12:24 PM (L4HGI)
9
Speaking of the LA Bank Robbery shoot out, how well will frangable bullets work if criminals are wearing body armor?
Posted by: BohicaTwentyTwo at September 17, 2007 02:43 PM (oC8nQ)
10
That might be the first intelligent post I have ever ready by CY. As a gun-owning Liberal, I completely agree. Giving non-SWAT police officers military rifles with NATO 5 ammo is a recipe for disaster.
Hardware is not the answer. The police are well-armed already. Leave the H&Ks to the special teams (SWAT, feds, etc.). With all due respect, regular officers and decs are not special ops, and to think that they are is arrogant and very naive.
There is a great book out there called Planet of Slums that explores urban combat trends for this century. And look at the firefights this year in Rio Brazil. They mean well, but the police there have become militarized death squads.
Posted by: Dhalgren at September 17, 2007 02:46 PM (Q7Ugu)
11
Who can be trained in two days??
Former Military, we have already trained on these weapons and know how to use them. Of course this means that non vets won't be at the top of the list. I was a firearms instructor for a Sheriff's Office, and the people who needed the least instruction, was the vets. Just facts, no PC.
Posted by: Pops at September 17, 2007 02:59 PM (DMnkh)
12
Bob: nice try at dismissing a legitimate question. If the police aren't to be trusted to properly use high-powered weapons, why should Average Joe, who likely has received less training than your average police officer and who is more likely to respond poorly in a stress environment? If the potential collateral damage from using these weapons is so extensive, why shouldn't they be off limits to everyone? what's the difference between a cop missing with one of these and some homeowner missing his target as he seeks to defend his castle? It's not as if Joe Average only uses them on the range, is it?
You've got to decide if you're more pro-gun or anti-cop....
Posted by: steve sturm at September 17, 2007 03:47 PM (sWhRW)
13
Not to pre-empt Bob's rebuttal to your rebuttal Steve, but his point is valid, yours is not.
Officers carrying "assault" rifles carry them on the street. I don't carry my rifle around with me on the street, nor do I plan to. Most of the people who own "assault" rifles do what Bob said, they fire them at the range, not in the street. The police are now armed with more lethal weaponry in environments that serve to maximize damage.
Why shouldn't the police be "trusted" and the average Joe should? It's not Joe's job to carry it and patrol the city in anticipation of stopping criminals on a daily basis.
Posted by: Stan at September 17, 2007 05:06 PM (OCKUA)
14
Stan:
you, and I presume Bob, are citing (if I have the expression correct) distinctions without differences. It doesn't matter where most civilians use their high-powered weaponry, if Bob is trying to make the point that there is a danger of collateral damage from these weapons, then why shouldn't they be off limits for everyone? It's not as if they're never used outside a range, right?
Just as Bob (and you?) would never seek to ban all guns just because some people use them improperly, how can you justify opposing the police having these weapons, even though the number of times someone is killed by the police using one of these weapons is far smaller than the number of people wrongfully killed by civilians using these weapons? Going after the cops for a relatively small number of accidental deaths caused by high-powered weapons sure seems to me like someone is anti-cop and just looking for an excuse to bash them.
Posted by: steve sturm at September 17, 2007 05:36 PM (sWhRW)
15
"even though the number of times someone is killed by the police using one of these weapons is far smaller than the number of people wrongfully killed by civilians using these weapons?"
Stats and source, please? And define "cilivian": Are you talking illegally obtained guns, or the people who line up next to me on the range with their AR-15's and AK's?
I don't think anyone here is objecting to elements of the police having Evil Black Rifles (EBR's) who know how to use them and are trained to do so. Ever since North Hollywood, rifle-caliber longarms are becoming standard-issue to SWAT and special response teams, but I'm not sure they're a cure-all to this situation.
What I do object to is a cop on the beat having firepower he can't handle. If there were a rash of speeding tickets in a neighborhood, would you advocate all the patrol cars getting upgraded to muscle cars, or would better training in pursuit tactics be the optimal solution?
Training, not firepower, is the answer here.
Posted by: ExUrbanKevin at September 17, 2007 06:25 PM (ppKzH)
16
Steve, I shall deal substantively with your "issue" not because it is deserving of a single byte of my bandwidth, but merely as an exercise in demonstrating your absolute stupidity and idiocy.
Members of the police force are recruited from the general population, not from Mars or some other place. When they take off their uniform at the end of the work day, they become little different from the "Average Joe" you speak of. They go home, eat a meal with their family if their work schedule and lifestyle allows it, and when they go to bed they take their pants off one leg at a time.
Therefore, your placing of the police force and "Average Joe" in two different categories is a false premise, and one that should be apparent to anyone with a working prefrontal cortex. All the rest of your false conclusions flow naturally from that false premise, as well.
In point of fact, if we can trust our police forces with these weapons, we should be able to trust the "Average Joe" with them--given equivalent firearms training, of course--and vice versa.
Posted by: C-C-G at September 17, 2007 07:04 PM (lo4eE)
17
Being a former SWAT cop, I can clear up a few things.
1. 2 days is not a long enough training period for anyone who is not already prepared. Many, though not most, cops are prepared through previous experience and training and can be trained in that time.
2. With modern tactical ammo, 5.56 is less likely to over penetrate than the projectiles from pistol caliber carbines or SMG's are. In urban environments they fly just as far, that is they both fly until they hit something. Most of the larger police SWAT teams these days have replaced their sub machine guns for short barreled 5.56mm rifles for defeating armor. Long guns, of any caliber, are far easier to use under stress than pistols are and officers qualify with higher scores on the range and miss far less often on the street.
3. Given the example of Ca agencies I worked with that made rifle qualification voluntary, maybe 20% of the patrol officers bothered doing it. These were the more motivated officers, and were far more likely to have sought training at schools like Gunsite. The qualification course could be made appropriately hard because, unlike with the pistol and shotgun, taking it was voluntary and failing it did not cause disciplinary action against the officer.
4. My experience with them in combat and in police work leads me to believe that with modern ammo the M16/AR15 makes a fine police rifle. Shotguns are short ranged, and many officers find using them intimidating due to heavy recoil. SMG's and pistol caliber carbines have all the drawbacks of a 5.56mm rifle with fewer of their advantages over a pistol.
Posted by: karlj at September 17, 2007 07:09 PM (Kg2UJ)
18
Steve:
To jump in as an owner of said "EBR" and many many others, and as ExUrbanKev stated:
"Training, not firepower, is the answer here."
In the off chance something were to happen untoward in my domicile, the first thing I'd grab would be my 12 Gauge loaded prgressively with #7 Shot(2 Rounds), Single Ought Buck (1 Round) and then Double Ought Buck (3 Rounds) the first two are so that IF and I mean IF it became necessary for me to fire inside my house, the first two rounds are more for the 'noise and sting' rather than out and out penetration... #7 will barely penetrate sheetrock and really won't kill anyone short of a point blank shot... (figure anyone who sticks around after the first blast from a twelve gauge and the last thing I'd worry about is the neighbors and penetration of my walls... after all at that point all bets are off...thus the increase level of lethality) but as stated: because of my TRAINING the LAST weapon I would grab to stop an intruder would be my M-4 or MP-5 SBR, primarily b/c of the fact that a bullet really doesn't differentiate from hostiles or nonhostiles... Once fired it truly is an 'equal opportunity employer'.
Posted by: Big Country at September 17, 2007 07:19 PM (8dJDM)
19
CY finally says something I agree with.
But this post makes me wonder: You think that LEOs--who have a lot of other firearm and crisis training, and are also highly likely to be National Guardsmen or Reservists with military training--cannot effectively use a certain type of weapon in a certain environment.
But you think that a bunch of college kids--most of whom have no firearm training, and many of whom haven't yet mastered driving a car--can effectively respond to crises on college campuses and stop mass killers from terrorizing classrooms.
Sorry. This does not compute.
Posted by: R. Stanton Scott at September 17, 2007 08:51 PM (AHekj)
20
RSS, there is nothing to "compute."
Police officers carrying intermediate-power duty weapons in an urban setting with minimal training is not, in my opinion, a good idea. And yes, while many have military training, I know quite a few with either no military training, or a MOS where they have touched a weapon very infrequently (not everyone is an infantryman, not by a long shot). I've also sadly known several police officers who were among the most gun-ignorant people I've ever known, and did just enough to qualify. I think police agencies need to provide more than 2 days training to weed out such officers.
CCW holders, unlike police officers,are not tasked with saving others. They have only to defend themselves. We're not asking them to go out of their way to go after criminals, and in fact, doing so would be illegal.
Surely you can understand such differences.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at September 17, 2007 09:11 PM (HcgFD)
21
The answer to Bob's persistent question is Color of Authority.
The cops shouldn't be entitled to own any weapon a citizen cannot own. Likewise cops should be able to use any weapon posessed by civilians. The huge gaping difference is the standards we expect each group to abide by.
If I decide to use my AR in lawful self defense, but in doing so manage to kill or wound some innocent bystanders due to the long range/ high penetration capability of the weapon I am in a world of hurt. Civil and criminal.
Your ordinary patrol cop? Not so much. Sure his/her municipality shells out big bucks to the estates or next of kin, but will he see the inside of a prison? Not a chance.
And never mind the differing degrees of likelihood between joe citizen and joe beat cop actually using said weapon.
I'm all for LEOs having the proper equipment, and in some cases a carbine may be the answer. But they need proper training to go along with it. Anyone remember back in the 80s when all those cops started getting souped up pursuit vehicles? Remember how many ended up in ditches or wrapped around telephone poles?
Issuing intermediate caliber weapons to your average cop - without proper training - is akin to giving your seven year old a straight razor.
Oh and Bobby Lane - full auto (along with most other destructive devices) is legal in Idaho, as long as you abide by all NFA regs and go through a class III dealer. Hell, in 2003 the Ninth Circuit court said it was legal to manufacture your own homemade machine gun (but that got overturned by Raich in 2005 though.)
Posted by: ThomasD at September 17, 2007 09:32 PM (gMIZD)
22
why should Average Joe, who likely has received less training than your average police officer and who is more likely to respond poorly in a stress environment?
Average joes miss less than cops in shootouts. This is a statistical fact. Starting out with a false premise is tacky, very tacky.
Posted by: Purple Avenger at September 17, 2007 09:34 PM (/G4Xe)
23
Average joes miss less than cops in shootouts. This is a statistical fact. Starting out with a false premise is tacky, very tacky.
Have any evidence from a reputable source to back that up?
Saying something is a statistical fact without providing evidence to that is tacky, very tacky.
Posted by: C-C-G at September 17, 2007 09:55 PM (lo4eE)
24
Lawdog posted a month or so back about an alternative to the Eeevil Black Rifle... which, I think, would also reduce the training gap - inasmuch as his proposed alternative should seem quite familiar to cops already handy with the Remington 870.
Frankly, I'm not convinced of the value of assault weapons in policing, except in the hands of properly trained specialists. Frangible rounds or not, bursts of 5.56mm rounds in an urban environment are a heightened risk to bystanders. At the end of the day, it isn't about the weapons - the police should have whatever gear is deemed appropriate - it's about law enforcement policy and manpower imposing a predictable effect on the crooks.
If would-be villains can reasonably predict they'll be caught and convicted or shot, many will become either more-or-less law-abiding or move elsewhere. Law enforcement needs to produce outcomes which are predictable by those who would breach the law.
Posted by: hiraethin at September 17, 2007 10:54 PM (hnFlP)
25
Hiraethin, outcomes are not really in the hands of the police. It's the courts that decide outcomes, frequently letting the guilty go free or not imposing harsh penalties, so would-be criminals feel that the risk is not overly burdensome in light of the reward.
Posted by: C-C-G at September 17, 2007 11:10 PM (lo4eE)
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This is part of an article,North Hollywood
shootout...patrol officers should have had small caliber rifle capability. Had they been issued this essential piece of equipment, head shots were a possible solution for them. Without a Ruger 9MM or 40 S&W rifle, or an AR 15 or M16, head shots that could have ended the threat were out of the question. The political environment in the City of Los Angeles borders on a third world mentality and it may never be possible to provide this easy to use and accurate weapon.
Safariland's distributor in San Diego, Don Hacklander, regularly demonstrates the safety and ease of the urban rifle by taking a police academy's poorest shooting cadet and in 15 minutes having that cadet shooting 50 yard head shots. This simplicity of training, citizen safety through accuracy, and low cost can only be achieved through an urban rifle such as the Ruger 9MM or 40 S&W. Agencies large and small should consider deployment of this weapon, not as a replacement for the shotgun, because it can't, but as an enhancement of officer capability and accuracy which it can.
Posted by: Bobby Lane at September 18, 2007 09:04 AM (L4HGI)
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CY: I can indeed understand such differences. Don't forget: I was a combat soldier. I get the value of weapons training.
I also know that after the Virginia Tech shootings you argued that college students should be armed because they could act to limit the carnage when these things happen.
As I said, I agree that giving police officers more powerful weapons without properly training them is a bad idea.
But you cannot logically make this case while arguing at the same time that a bunch of untrained civilians--19 year old college kids who can scarcely muster the courage to talk to each other half the time--can act to stop criminal behavior when it confronts them just because they carry sidearms.
Am I really the only one who sees the contradiction here? If so, it's worse than I thought.
Posted by: R. Stanton Scott at September 18, 2007 08:22 PM (WbLKp)
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Having an M-16 or M-4 (semiauto) in the trunk of at least some patrol cars strikes me as a good idea for when things escalate, if the officers are properly trained. Having officers carry these weapons on regular patrole - well, it strikes me that she a practice is appropriate in Baghdad. How would the weapon be carried? In the shoulder, in a tactical sling or slung ove the back? How to keep positive control if it is over the back?
I don't even know how one would carry a long rifle on a normal police patrol - when I was in the Army the proper way to carry a rifle was "guns and eyeballs" - I'm pretty sure this would not go over well in among civvies.
Much better to pay for more range time and bullets with the current weapons, including more tactical shooting and jungle lanes. If the cops have a higher confidence that they will hit what they shoot at, they'll be less likely to fire an excessive number of rounds.
Posted by: holdfast at September 18, 2007 08:51 PM (Gzb30)
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Some of the commenters here are comparing apples and oranges and claiming to find a paradox. Most of the flaws in this reasoning have already been addressed, but I would like to point out that there have been school shooting situations ended by armed citizens, students and faculty, and in none of these situations did these citizens need to fire their weapons.
Posted by: triticale at September 18, 2007 09:30 PM (oE5Kz)
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RSS, when is the last time you saw a 19-year-old with a CCW?
While I don't claim to have comprehensive knowledge of all state's policies, I suspect that you have to be 21 to be eligible, meaning that it would be upper classmen, graduate students, faculty and staff carrying if anyone did.
Of course, the profile of your typical CCW carrier seems to skew, in my anecdotal experience, to be just about anyone other than the mythical 19-years you keep persisting in portraying. Among those shot at were faculty members that could have held CCW licenses.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at September 18, 2007 09:34 PM (HcgFD)
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C-C-G:Have any evidence from a reputable source to back that up?
Saying something is a statistical fact without providing evidence to that is tacky, very tacky.
Oddly, Purple Avenger is correct: although I don't have the citation readily at hand (locked up in storage), I believe its from Lott's "More Guns, Less Crime."
I know it seems counterintuitive, and it would certainly be an interesting study to determine why it's so, but there it is.
Posted by: EW1(SG) at September 22, 2007 12:08 AM (YcNsA)
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Violating Her Sybil Rights?
The words "honesty" and "Hollywood" don't belong in the same sentence for a very good reason. Sally Field, bungling her Emmy acceptance speech and being played off-stage as she went over her allotted time, had her closing comment cut off when she utter "g-d d-mn" on tape-delayed "live" television.
Normally, this would be hardly worth mentioning, as profanity is routinely edited out on these kinds of shows (as it was on at least two other occasions last night) and babbling stars are often played off the stage (as also occurred last night) as they prattle on past their allotted time.
Field, professional that she is, timed a mild anti-war comment to come out prefaced by profanity as she was being played off the stage. According to a quite dishonest
L.A. Times Tom O'Neil:
Producers of Sunday's Emmy telecast bleeped best drama actress winner Sally Field in the midst of a controversial acceptance speech attacking U.S. involvement in Iraq.
"If mothers ruled the world, there wouldn't be any god -" she said when the sound went dead and the camera suddenly turned away from the stage so viewers would be distracted. Chopped off were the words "god-damned wars in the first place."
Filed was not "in the midst" as O'Neil reported, but already over her allotted time as the music came up and she was being played off the stage. Likewise, as
Don Surber notes, she was far from being the only celebrity to have their profanity edited out of the show.
Predictably, blogs in the community-based reality such as
Think Progress and the aptly-named
Crooks and Liars are quick to make the unsupported accusation that this was the result of "censorship" by Fox , and left out the pertinent details that Field was using profanity and already over time when she made her rote comment.
Obviously, these troubling facts aren't relevant to the story they would prefer to tell.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
08:21 AM
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...but of course, if MSNBC and C-NBC refuse to run a pro-Iraq-victory ad, that's just fine with the lefties.
I've said it before, and I'll say it again: to a lefty, everyone is equal, but some are more equal than others. Orwell would be so proud.
(Hey, CY... how come the comment filter doesn't like C and N right next to each other?)
Posted by: C-C-G at September 17, 2007 09:06 AM (lo4eE)
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Hmmmm.
People watch that show?
Posted by: memomachine at September 17, 2007 10:33 AM (3pvQO)
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I typed in a comment that the guy was a "goddamn moron," and he hasn't posted it.
Posted by: Dan Collins at September 17, 2007 10:54 AM (1moHq)
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Facts have never meant much to liberals
Posted by: Capitalist Infidel at September 17, 2007 11:14 AM (Lgw9b)
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Bono used profanity not too long ago at the Golden Globes and the act was not censored or fined. But, you're right: Fox would be worried more about a dirty word than an anti-war comment. That makes sense.
Do you watch much television?
Romano's slip earlier in the evening - now THAT I could buy was due to the profanity.
Posted by: dgbellak at September 17, 2007 04:52 PM (cWhAD)
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Since what constitutes "facts" seems to be up for debate here, why don't you read someone who has done their research.
Posted by: dgbellak at September 17, 2007 06:56 PM (cWhAD)
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He's the guy who wouldn't post my comment calling him a "goddamn moron."
Posted by: Dan Collins at September 17, 2007 07:01 PM (JSYrn)
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Difficult to imagine why. It adds so much to the debate.
Posted by: dgbellak at September 17, 2007 07:04 PM (cWhAD)
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Exactly.
CENSORSHIP!!!!
Posted by: Dan Collins at September 17, 2007 07:26 PM (JSYrn)
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The several second delay is intended to allow time to censor the expletive. What is less common is that in this case the [bleep] network censored the words that came after the expletive too.
Posted by: buma at September 18, 2007 01:40 AM (H4Y9t)
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buma, you do understand when someone hits the dump button it takes a few seconds to reset, right? That anything said in those few seconds is also cut?
Posted by: buzz at September 18, 2007 09:34 PM (rQuaK)
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September 14, 2007
Weather Woes
Well, thanks to this I might continue my fund-raising efforts for a few more days.
I haven't been outside to check
the damage to any great degree yet, but know that the straight-line winds in my area were strong enough to damage homes under construction within view of my house, down trees, and lift my rather substantial grill into the air and toss it into my neighbor's yard. I'll retrieve it tomorrow, but my guess is that it's toast.
If anyone hasn't donated yet and could, I'd appreciate it.
I really liked that grill.
Update: Picture added above. For us, that's all we lost, and for that I'm very thankful.
Talking to folks in the area and surveying the damage, it appears out area took a hit from a very minor tornado (there were a total of
six in the area, all blessedly weak). Not a lot of damage in my neighborhood, but there was in the older neighborhood nearby where there were far more mature trees, a lot of which lost branches, and several large oaks that were totally ripped apart.
Nobody got seriously injured or killed, and that is what really matters.
The "Liberal Braintrust" Update: It seems that several lefty bloggers have seized upon this post as proof of great hypocrisy on my part, as I've stated publicly on several occasions that New Orleans should not be rebuilt in the wake of Hurricane Katrina.
The reasoning behind not rebuilding New Orleans is scientifically-driven and practical in nature. The Mississippi delta silt upon which the city was built is rapidly compacting, and hence the city itself is literally and inevitably sinking. This is combined with the fact that the marshlands protecting the city are eroding at a rate of 25-35 square miles/year, and the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers, along with noted scientists from coastal and marine studies programs including LSU, have stated the geological inevitability of the city merging with the Gulf of Mexico prior to 2100, and quite possibly by 2050 or sooner with the landfall of any major hurricanes (which Katrina was not when it hit; New Orleans suffered category 1-2 winds), or a sudden rise in sea level, which could occur if global warming is as dramatic as some expect.
Simply put, New Orleans is a sinking hole in a swamp surrounded on three sides by hungry waters: rebuilding the city with an anemic patchwork of small levee improvements is a colossal exercise in stupidity, when relocating the population is a much more intelligent and more viable long-term option. It may also ultimately lead to a far greater loss of life the next time the city is inundated.
Liberal Logic: New Orleans = Bobs' Grill.
Somehow, this bit of scientifically-supported common sense means I'm a hypocrite because I extended my already running week-long yearly fundraising effort, mentioning specifically late Friday that that I'm going to need to replace my storm-tossed grill.
Said grill was up-ended and tossed into my neighbor's yard by what appears to be a very small tornado that spun out of a line of thunderstorms that developed quickly as a line of storms passed through Friday evening. The line of storms was the leftovers of what was Humberto, the storm that hit minimal hurricane status before it made landfall on Texas last week and quickly dissipated.
According to these esteemed liberal thinkers,
asking my readership to continue a
voluntary fundraiser is
the exact same thing, somehow, as demanding billions of taxpayer dollars from the federal government to replace a city doomed by geology, oceanography, and hydrology.
Perhaps if I lobbied taxpayers for the funds that argument would have some merit, but I'm not applying for a grant, or demanding that taxpayers fund anything. I didn’t do that. I extended a pre-existing weeklong fundraiser where I asked for voluntary donations from my readers. My "crime" was continuing a voluntary fundraiser for a specific reason?
Heaven forbid. How
do I live with myself.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
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1
CY, are you around Asheville? I'm in Monroe and we had something similar a few weeks back. I don't think anyone has been able to determine exactly what knocked down 23 electric polls starting at my place. It was either a tornado, lightening, or what most believe a microburst.
Do you have any information about a town up there called Sylva? I have an old friend who lives up there. Well, more like an ex who still hates me but I hope she's ok.

Posted by: Capitalist Infidel at September 15, 2007 03:14 PM (Lgw9b)
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Sorry CI, I'm near Raleigh...
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at September 15, 2007 09:21 PM (HcgFD)
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Sorry about your grill. I live in a coastal area up north and we get funky little gale storms all the time when things start to go flying.
But I have to say that seeing the photo documenting the tidy little disaster of your grill made me laugh out loud.
You see, I had just clicked over after having read some god awful report on the godawfulness that is Iraq's infrastructure (you know: very little electricity, a shortage of potable water, an outbreak of cholera, food distribution problems, and the like), and I thought, How typically American. A toppled-over grill is a calamity.
Just shows how fortunate we are.
Posted by: Grace Nearing at September 16, 2007 03:21 AM (DMnkh)
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"I really liked that grill."
I bet you say that to all the grills.
Posted by: Bill Smith at September 16, 2007 05:28 AM (4FExI)
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That was some wild weather Friday. I was watching a tornado try and form near the Triangle Town Center mall. Fortunately, just didn't have the energy at that time.
Sorry about the grill, CF.
Posted by: William Teach at September 16, 2007 08:29 AM (NaHh8)
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I want a grill just like the grill that harried the neighbors' yard.
Posted by: Sissy Willis at September 16, 2007 03:05 PM (Q6JEL)
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Also, if you didn't mourn the loss of your grill, the terrorists would have won.
Posted by: Sissy Willis at September 16, 2007 03:17 PM (Q6JEL)
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Looks like an original "Charbroil". Can't get those anymore.
I still have the grates if that is all it takes--I've been meaning to try and build a replacement for mine, but I probably won't get it done in this lifetime.
Posted by: Larry Sheldon at September 16, 2007 06:23 PM (QwUYy)
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It's actually a version of this Royal Oak. I like cooking with charcoal more than gas, but they don't make them heavy enough to stay on the ground around here, apparently.
Kinda scary something about a hundred pounds like that can get airborne.
Grace, what you say is so true.
Bill, Sissy...get help.
;-)
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at September 16, 2007 07:02 PM (HcgFD)
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Why should we help you replace the grill if you're going to keep on living in a hurricane area? You're living on 'sand' like the foolish man and it will just be washed away again.
Posted by: Michael at September 17, 2007 09:11 AM (c900z)
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Show some initiative, man.
Just use your burning cross the next time you want to grill some weenies.
Posted by: Luke Duke at September 17, 2007 10:40 AM (6Nz4N)
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If I remember correctly didn't say that we shouldn't pay to rebuild NO? But now we should all chip in for your crappy grill?
I think this is just a warning shot from God - you had better get your life right with Him or it will only get worse from here.
Posted by: frankly at September 17, 2007 10:55 AM (rjqvO)
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Michael, you're obviously not bright enough to get this, but living over 130 miles from the ocean. I'm not what would typically be considered any more of a "hurricane area" than is San Antonio, Texas.
Perhaps I shouldn't be surprised, however.
You did come from a blog that thinks that there is some sort of equivalence to be made from me asking my readers to donate private funds if they so desire because they like my blog, and the demand to use public tax dollars to rebuild New Orleans.
It is rather pathetic how far they'll go to set up a false moral equivalence, but it is even more pathetic that their readers allow themselves to be so easily fooled.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at September 17, 2007 11:01 AM (EPsu8)
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Well, I'm sure you donated plenty of money to America's Second Harvest or some other charitable organization when Katrina blew through.
Posted by: Run Up The Score at September 17, 2007 11:27 AM (P8MNB)
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You tell 'em, CY!
You are *so* right: there's no equivalence between asking the Public to fork out their hard-earned cash to save a city and asking the public to fork out their hard earned cash to save a grill.
Quite apart from the fact that one involves a capital "P" and the other doesn't, a grill is like waaay more important.
Posted by: Andrew at September 17, 2007 11:35 AM (R09+d)
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CY: What are those round, circular doohickeys attached to each leg of the barbecue? Hint: they aren't meat tenderizers.
Maybe, just maybe, you might want to move stuff you don't want to lose into the house or garage when a hurricane blows through.
Posted by: Bob's Trick Knee at September 17, 2007 12:22 PM (y67bA)
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Well, I'm sure you donated plenty of money to America's Second Harvest or some other charitable organization when Katrina blew through.
Well, our church took in a few refugees when they came to Raleigh and we contributed to helping htem get clothing and housing, and our church also sent down teams to help rebuild (which is where I got many of the Katrina damage photos used ont his blog). I couldn't go because of work commitments, but I did help collect food, clothing, and money for survivors in the aptly-named Waveland, Missisippi, which was hit directly by the storm surge. We "adopted" a retired couple that had moved there only months befor the stormm and got them some basics as they waited for their home to be rebuilt. We prayed for them, and continue to send letters back and forth with them, providing the psychologicla support that is every bit as important as money, with "Tom" becoming my daughter's pen pal.
I'm also very much involved with Beauchamp Tower Corporation, a not-for-profit that is attempting to get the federal government to turn over some "moth-balled" ships slated for the scrapyard, which will be retrofitted by civilian and corporate donors to provide major disaster emergency response. I communicate directly with BTC CEO Ward Brewer, though that isn't anything I've talked about much on my blog lately. What we're talking about is something I've dubbed the "Savaltion Navy," and what may become the greatest part of our nation's mass disaster response planning.
That said, what have you done, Run?
And other knee, there was no hurricane here, just a line of thunderstorms which spun off tornadoes. Not that you come here from a blog smart enough to know the difference between hurricanes and tornadoes.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at September 17, 2007 12:32 PM (WwtVa)
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BTW, the BTC OES effort is just so much vapor.
The idea suffers from several fatal flaws: 1.) the ships are generally unsuitable for relief operations unless massively retrofitted; 2.) BTC hasn't anywhere near the monies needed to accomplish the repairs and mods; 3.)many of the ships require significant environmental remediation--another cost BTC can't fund.
Posted by: Bob's Trick Knee at September 17, 2007 01:29 PM (cqZXM)
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It depends on the ships being targeted, BTK, and there are specific candidates in mind.
You are not in a position to determine how much the remediation will cost, or for that matter, know the assets, commitments, or capabilities at BTC's disposal.
Like so much you spew, you have absolutely no idea of what you are talking about.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at September 17, 2007 01:36 PM (WwtVa)
20
It seems to me that you lost your grill due to your own carelessness. If we come in and purchase you a new grill, you will have no incentive to properly take care of that one either. Pretty soon, you'll be leaving your grill out in all manner of nasty weather, and we'll be buying you a new one each week. It'd be grill-welfare.
Incidentally, I live in Durham and went through pretty much the same storm. As it started, I went outside and moved my grill in the garage, like any reasonable Conservative would do. You should learn to do the same. Perhaps the financial burden of having to replace it yourself will teach you that lesson, and maybe a bit of self-reliance as well.
Posted by: Conservative Scholar at September 17, 2007 01:36 PM (l8GOp)
21
i live outside of Raleigh m'self. and i too keep my grill in the garage, because, well, i have a nice grill and i don't want it to get knocked around by any late-afternoon T-storm that might come by.
that, and i don't trust my neighbor's kids not to steal it or blow my house up.
Posted by: cleek at September 17, 2007 01:57 PM (+dx2l)
22
Michael, you're obviously not bright enough to get this, but living over 130 miles from the ocean. I'm not what would typically be considered any more of a "hurricane area" than is San Antonio, Texas.
You were obviously not around for Hurricane Fran.
Posted by: barry at September 17, 2007 02:03 PM (2Sabn)
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Setting the Agenda for a Non-Scandal
Advertising Age dissects how my observation earlier this week helped shape this week's news:
MoveOn told ABC's Jake Tapper that the group paid $65,000 for a Sept. 10 ad accusing General David Petraeus of "cooking the books for the White House" in his status reports on Iraq. The Times rate card implies that weekday, full-page, black-and-white cause, appeal or political ads cost $181,692.
A post on the blog Confederate Yankee soon noted the disparity. "While I'm fairly certain that nobody pays 'sticker' prices, 61% off seems a rather sweet deal," his post said. The New York Post picked up the story yesterday, running a piece headlined "Times Gives Lefties a Hefty Discount for 'Betray Us' Ad" and followed up with another article and an editorial today. "Citing the shared liberal bias of the group and the Times," the Post wrote, "one Republican aide on Capitol Hill speculated that it was the 'family discount.'"
Mr. Giuliani, speaking in Atlanta yesterday, demanded that the Times apologize and offer him the same price.
Standby basis
But MoveOn bought its ad on a "standby" basis, under which it can ask for a day and placement in the paper but doesn't get any guarantees. Standby pricing doesn't appear on the Times rate card -- but that kind of ad at a standby rate turns out to run about $65,000.
In other words, all the attention came as a result of the
New York Times not putting their standby pricing on their rate cards, and the majority of the angry pixels expended in this incident were more than likely "much ado about nothing."
An interesting take on the eventual non-event from
Dan Riehl:
I won't pretend that Print isn't significant when it comes to the news game today, that would be foolish. But I would add an additional point, or two. Being the topic of the news agenda is a far different thing than setting said agenda. And if it weren't for New Media, particularly blogs in this case, this particular agenda item would likely have never even been set. Duh!
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
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That was great work.
Congrats.
Posted by: Jim Hoft at September 15, 2007 12:26 AM (Rxv1x)
2
The standby rate is irrelevant since the NY Times has knowingly refused to print some right wing advocacy ads. Pro Life etc.
Posted by: Dennis D at September 15, 2007 06:44 AM (y9UWN)
3
Uncle Jimbo pointed out the bull$hit behind the "Standby" defense, as well as pointing out the probable violation of Federal law in discounting an "advocacy" ad here:
http://www.blackfive.net/main/2007/09/ny-times--stand.html
i'd say you were dead on to begin with, and all the whining here suports that contention. %-)
redc1c4,
Advertising Age is just running a smoke screen.
Posted by: redc1c4 at September 15, 2007 02:04 PM (xPGdz)
4
And I, myself, on my own humble little corner of the blogosphere pointed out that MoveOn got a lot more than the usual standby service for their $65,000.
But, you lefties, rather than doing any research at all, would rather fling poo at someone who pointed out hypocrisy at the Bible of modern leftism, the NY Times.
Everyone is equal, but clearly the Times believes some are more equal than others. Orwell would be so proud.
Posted by: C-C-G at September 15, 2007 02:20 PM (lo4eE)
5
I seriously doubt there is a federal violation here --- the FEC governs elections, not political advocacy in general. If it tried to regulate here it would likely run up against the 1st amendment. Broadcast media were historically considered different because of the idea that the airwaves were a scarce resource, the use of which could be controlled for the public good,
The NYT could give this ad to MoveOn gratis and the FEC or anyone else (except their shareholders) couldn't do crap about it.
Posted by: sj at September 15, 2007 03:56 PM (hKGWM)
6
Standby pricing?? Not in the published rates??Sounds more like a recent invention NYT is using to cover their backside.
Posted by: czekmark at September 16, 2007 04:19 AM (5Jrbj)
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I love the smell of BDS in the morning. It smells like - Victory.
Arbalest at Ace of Spades has the perfect comment.
"This would seem to be proof that, with the right technique and tools, even the mighty editors of the New York Times can be made to pass a full size Roman brick; flat sides, straight and square corners and blunt ends."
Confederate Yankee, may I respectfully recommend that dave™© be disemvoweled.
Posted by: Looking Glass at September 16, 2007 05:13 AM (fX5Hp)
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LG, disemvoweling does seem interesting to try and perhaps I may some day for comedic effect, but typically, I take out all the trash, and not just some of it.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at September 16, 2007 06:11 AM (HcgFD)
9
Confederate Yankee,
Disemvoweling is a powerful tool to use against trolls. It doesn't confer the legitimacy of being deleted. They're turned into publicly impotent inarticulate fools even in their own minds.
You are severely underestimating the psychological effect on the troll.
Posted by: Looking Glass at September 16, 2007 09:11 AM (fX5Hp)
10
Heh. Disemvoweling. I'll have to remember that trick for dealing with my own trolls... who, fortunately, are few and far between.
Posted by: C-C-G at September 16, 2007 09:40 AM (lo4eE)
11
Trackbacked by The Thunder Run - Web Reconnaissance for 09/17/2007
A short recon of what’s out there that might draw your attention, updated throughout the day...so check back often.
Posted by: David M at September 17, 2007 10:22 AM (gIAM9)
12
Reuters finally does something interesting, and nobody notices.
Posted by: Neo at September 18, 2007 08:52 AM (Yozw9)
13
I'll be darned, Neo.
It'll be going up on my humble little corner of the blogosphere right away.
Posted by: C-C-G at September 18, 2007 09:10 AM (lo4eE)
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