Confederate Yankee
December 17, 2007
Shorter Hitchens
Matthew 22:21 (NIV): "...Give to Caesar what is Caesar's, and to God what is God's."
Perhaps it didn't quite have the pedigree (or the venom) Hitchens was looking for, but it does make the general point more succinctly.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
05:57 PM
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1
Or as those terrible Mormons would say:
#11 We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may.
#12 We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law.
Posted by: Sara at December 17, 2007 06:31 PM (Wi/N0)
2
Hmmmm.
And I'll take everything else that's left over.
...
But no leftovers plz. Ok?
Posted by: memomachine at December 18, 2007 12:40 PM (3pvQO)
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You Like Me, You Really Like Me...
John Hawkins has posted the The 6th Annual Right Wing News Conservative Blog Awards as voted upon by 45 of my fellow bloggers, and Confederate Yankee finished 3rd ahead of Newsbusters (4) and Michael J. Totten (4), and behind Michael Yon (2) and Michelle Malkin (1) in the category of "Best Original Reporting By A Blog."
I'm honored to be included in this list and more than a little surprised to find myself in such esteemed company. I'd like to thank my fellow bloggers and blog readers for their support over the course of the year.
I'm humbled.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
09:37 AM
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1
Hi Bob - congrats... No one has earned it
more than you my friend...

Posted by: Terresa Monroe-Hamilton at December 17, 2007 01:09 PM (ytltE)
2
Your efforts here, CY, have been ground-breaking, independent, reliable and fair. Umm, well, except for the Ron Paul blimp story below -- the pic looks airbrushed and from 2001.
Anyway, you deserved it. Congrats.
Posted by: Dusty at December 17, 2007 02:00 PM (GJLeQ)
Posted by: Grey Fox at December 17, 2007 03:54 PM (E9jLN)
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You deserve every bit of it, Bob.
Now go have a steak to celebrate.
Posted by: C-C-G at December 17, 2007 07:57 PM (4tS0i)
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congratulations, and good company! I really respect Totten and Yon for their on-scene reporting. You, on the other hand, have made life a living hell for our lying domestic "enemies". Great work! :-)
Posted by: Frank G at December 17, 2007 08:23 PM (Ydps9)
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December 14, 2007
The Momentous Passing of the Ron Paul Blimp over Northern Raleigh, North Carolina, as Viewed from Research Triangle Park, NC on Friday, December 14, 2007, at 1:00 PM.
Money well spent.
Update: Even better.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
01:23 PM
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1
It's really amazing what you can do if you have enough hot air, ain't it? -cp
Posted by: cold pizza at December 14, 2007 02:10 PM (VOA2U)
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...you can almost feel the crazy.
Posted by: DaveP. at December 14, 2007 03:30 PM (q6tuN)
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That was the Ron Paul blimp? When I saw it at 12:30 or so it was directly overhead, no one could read any message, and most of the students milling around outside on a beautiful day at Raleigh Charter HS were too busy with lunch and their friends to even notice it was there. The few who did just said "Look, a blimp! Cool!". As far as they were concerned, Paul wasted his money.
Posted by: Dr. Weevil at December 14, 2007 04:13 PM (2/Fmb)
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I had no idea it was so blue. Now, thass purty.
Posted by: Bleepless at December 14, 2007 06:28 PM (bAYPp)
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I was listening to the local radio, never heard one thing about it.
Nothing in the local media.
The few people who saw it probably thought it was there for the 'Canes game

Posted by: William Teach at December 14, 2007 08:24 PM (NaHh8)
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At least all of Ron Paul's hot air is containned within his blimp, and not continually flowing from his mouth, unlike that of McCain, Huckabee, Ghouliani and Romney.
Posted by: Alan at December 14, 2007 08:39 PM (AArpj)
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The FAA said there was a blip of the screen about the size of a pimple on a knats a**, must be Ron Paul. That's the same effect he will have on the election.
Posted by: Scrapiron at December 14, 2007 08:51 PM (d/RyS)
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Wait, upper left corner....
yep, yep, definitely a moonbat.
Posted by: Conservative CBU at December 14, 2007 11:30 PM (La7YV)
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Stealth blimp to match the stealth missiles that really hit the Pentagon. Or is the current thinking it was a fully loaded B-52?
Posted by: Pat Patterson at December 15, 2007 12:27 AM (uv9ue)
Posted by: Bill Smith at December 15, 2007 07:29 AM (ZotAI)
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But where is the majestic bird painted upon it? A Ronulan bird of prey must have that for it to be official...
Yes the majestic feathers!
The fine tail!
The wattle!
Well a turkey is preyed upon, isn't it?
Posted by: ajacksonian at December 15, 2007 10:44 AM (oy1lQ)
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though I could see it but realised that it was just lint on the screen
Posted by: Racer at December 15, 2007 10:09 PM (Qca4s)
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They must have their Ronulan cloaking device turned on.
Posted by: Mikey NTH at December 15, 2007 10:43 PM (xzmT0)
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He is raking in the money and Republicans seem to be really upset with him, they certainly find his campaign impossible to ignore.
Posted by: John Ryan at December 16, 2007 05:47 PM (TcoRJ)
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And by "impossible to ignore" we mean constantly point and laugh.
Posted by: Conservative CBU at December 16, 2007 08:44 PM (La7YV)
Posted by: Gary at December 17, 2007 07:48 AM (tHeks)
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John Ryan, that's for the same psychological reason that people find an accident on the freeway hard to ignore, even if it doesn't block traffic.
As for the money angle, let's not forget President Howard Dean, who revolutionized fundraising a few years back. Yeah, his money really helped him into the Oval Office, didn't it?
Posted by: C-C-G at December 17, 2007 09:14 AM (CGiAW)
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Questionable Numbers
A USA Today article earlier this week noted the increasing confirmed or suspected suicides among members of the armed forces, but provided questionable figure for civilian suicides for comparison. The military suicide rate was pushed to USA Today by Senator Patty Murray, (D-WA). Murray was just one of 21 Democrats to vote against the resolution authorizing the invasion of Iraq.
According to the
USA Today article:
A record number of soldiers — 109 — have killed themselves this year, according to Army statistics showing confirmed or suspected suicides.
The deaths occur as soldiers serve longer combat deployments and the Army spends $100 million on support programs.
...
Those numbers show 77 confirmed suicides Army-wide this year through Nov. 27 and 32 other deaths pending final determination as suicides.
The Army updated those statistics Wednesday, confirming 85 suicides, including 27 in Iraq and four in Afghanistan.
The highest number of Army suicides recorded since 1990 was 102 in 1992 — a period when the service was 20% larger than today.
A total of 109 suicides this year would equal a rate of 18.4 per 100,000, the highest since the Army started counting in 1980. The civilian suicide rate was 11 per 100,000 in 2004, according to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention.
The discrepancy between military and civilian suicide rates—18.4/100,000 for the military, and 11/100,000 for civilians—is certainly shocking.
But it isn't necessarily accurate in an oranges-to-oranges comparison.
For example, an
Associated Press account published today states that the civilian suicide rate for one segment of the population, middle-aged Americans 45-54, has risen dramatically, and that it isn't as far from the military rate as the
USA Today article states.
The rate rose by about 20 percent between 1999 and 2004 for U.S. residents ages 45 through 54 — far outpacing increases among younger adults, the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention reported.
In 2004, there were 16.6 completed suicides per 100,000 people in that age group. That's the highest it's been since the CDC started tracking such rates, around 1980. The previous high was 16.5, in 1982.
Experts said they don't know why the suicide rates are rising so dramatically in that age group, but believe it is an unrecognized tragedy.
The general public and government prevention programs tend to focus on suicide among teenagers, and many suicide researchers concentrate on the elderly, said Mark Kaplan, a suicide researcher at Portland State University.
"The middle-aged are often overlooked. These statistics should serve as a wake-up call," Kaplan said.
For a like comparison to be made, one can—and perhaps should— try to compare the military suicide rate against the most demographically-comparable civilian group, and not the entire U.S. population.
When this is done, the
CDC figures show that the 2004 age-adjusted suicide rate for civilian men—which would most closely correlate to the mostly male military population—is at 15.2 per 100,000, just 1.4/100,000 different than the military figure. This isn't an oranges-to-oranges comparison with military deaths, but at least we're closer to talking citrus in both instances.
The highest overall suicide rate among the groups studied was among males 65 or older, at 28.9 per 100,000.
For men, getting old seems to be a far greater risk factor for suicide than going to war, but then, I'm not a statistician.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
10:10 AM
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1
I agree CY - it is an apples and oranges comparison. It would be better to contrast the Army suicide rate to that of other high stress, high danger jobs such as police and firemen.
I was an XO in a company that had a soldier suicide. It's not a pleasant experience and we lost a good troop that day.
RIP Spc. Herrick
NOTE: BTW, the article above mentions Herrick's room "indicators he dabbled in witchcraft or the dark arts". That it fails to mention is a) it was a shared room and b) Korn and Maralyn Manson posters do not constitute dabbling in the dark arts.
Posted by: Dan Irving at December 14, 2007 03:38 PM (zw8QA)
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And... the vast majority of military suicides did not occur in a combat zone.
Posted by: Chuck Simmins at December 14, 2007 05:12 PM (hASmp)
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Re Senator Murray-
http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/local/100835_murray20.shtml
.....
Posted by: rosignol at December 14, 2007 09:06 PM (jpBGs)
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"the deaths occur as soldiers serve longer combat deployments..."
That's journalist-ese for "I have no evidence of a connection so I'll slimily insinuate one."
Let me try: "suicides of Mac users occur as increasing numbers migrate to the latest release of the operating system." Which is just as dishonest.
Posted by: pst314 at December 14, 2007 09:06 PM (WjPRb)
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Hmmm... perhaps they could try comparing the suicide rates of US service members with members of Al Qaeda and its affiliates.
That's just as valid a comparison... in fact, it might be more valid because they're currently opponents in the War on Terror.
-taking tongue out of cheek-
For a truly valid comparison, perhaps someone could dig up the stats on suicides in the armed forces during WWII, and compare it to now? In other words, pre-Vietnam and post-Vietnam.
I would honestly be interested in seeing that sort of comparison done.
Posted by: C-C-G at December 15, 2007 10:12 PM (CGiAW)
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Let me try: "suicides of Mac users occur as increasing numbers migrate to the latest release of the operating system." Which is just as dishonest.
The problem with your suggestion is that the suicides have not, as far as I can tell, been broken down by OS. The statistics in the article specifically address military personnel, and it is a fact that deployments are longer than they once were. Correlation is not causation, but the article's stats have more correlation than your scenario.
Much as I hate to admit it, CCG has a point: the pre- versus post-Vietnam statistics would be pertinent data.
Another question: is the 1.4/100,000 adjusted rate even a statistically significant difference?
Posted by: novanom at December 16, 2007 01:07 PM (zmOBU)
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Yes you are correct in that among the older men ex-vets do have a much higher rate of suicide.
Posted by: John Ryan at December 16, 2007 05:48 PM (TcoRJ)
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Thank you, novanom.
Upon further reflection, I'd actually like to see three data sets compared... WWII, Vietnam, and post-Vietnam (i.e. Gulf Wars I and II, along with the Afghanistan war). Comparing those three would give us the best possible picture.
Not that I expect the media to do it. They're still too invested in failure in Iraq.
Posted by: C-C-G at December 16, 2007 06:34 PM (CGiAW)
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December 13, 2007
Another Fake Massacre
This is CNN:
Iraqi soldiers have found a mass grave of mutilated bodies in a restive region north of Baghdad, a local security official told CNN Thursday.
...
Iraqi soldiers said 12 of the bodies found north of Baghdad were beheaded and four others were mutilated. The corpses, all male, were discovered Wednesday near Muqdadiya in Diyala province north of the capital, the official, from Diyala province, said on Thursday.
He said police believe al Qaeda in Iraq left behind the mass grave.
Uh,
no.
From Task For Iron's PAO via email:
This appears to false reporting. We currently have no information to confirm this. Neither the Brigade on the ground, or out teams that work with the IA or IPs can confirm this.
This is at least the
fifth "massacre of civilians story by al Qaeda" attributed to anonymous police, civilian, or military sources by incurious reporters this year.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
03:01 PM
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Posted by: Techie at December 13, 2007 03:33 PM (AV8Z6)
2
And yet The Deciders say they are brave for hiding under a desk in The Green Zone relying upon a Billal Hussein-type stringer.
Posted by: eddiebear at December 13, 2007 04:03 PM (wnU1W)
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The deciders are nothing if not consistent.
Posted by: Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr at December 13, 2007 05:14 PM (gkobM)
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I understand they hate George Bush. I get it. Really I do. Message received.
But JUST ONCE I would think one of these BDS suffering media outlets would stop and say "You know - we've reported, like 50 straight phony massacre and atrocity claims. In fact, there hasn't been a single one that was remotely true in, like three years now. Maybe we ought to, you know, actually try and check one out before repeating the story to the whole world"
Posted by: Fred at December 13, 2007 05:41 PM (HG9F2)
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Come on be a little understanding - the MSM in Iraq probably can't afford to hire the stringers AND provide them with digital cameras and email access so the stringers could photograph the bodies and send by email to the MSM hiding under the tables in the Green Zone.
Posted by: AJ Lynch at December 13, 2007 05:48 PM (mvo7l)
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I think they just keep finding the corpse of the press' credibility.
Posted by: TallDave at December 13, 2007 06:14 PM (/XDWj)
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Why do we keep hearing about these fake ones but nothing when Michael Yon covers an actuall one?
Posted by: vivictius at December 13, 2007 06:15 PM (HVACT)
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I'd like to see a tally of fake deaths in Iraq. We might even reach a grim milestone.
Posted by: Amphipolis at December 13, 2007 06:18 PM (fja7A)
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Thanks for cluing us in.
Otherwise, I'd never know what xNN reports.
PS your blog program deems the comment "I don't watch xNN" to be "questionable content". I think that's a laff, and you may want to find a different blog program.
Posted by: Stella Baskomb at December 13, 2007 06:31 PM (ti+1x)
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Now waitaminnit. There's a new element here.
[The official] said police believe al Qaeda in Iraq left behind the mass grave.
Now if the reporting was that Shi'ia death squads had done the massacre, or Iraqi troops under American leadership, or American troops... it would fit with Teh Narrative. After all, it has been Decided that only Sunni under Saddam's leadership are fit to rule, that American troops (and their protogés) are slack-jawed misfits slathering for opportunities to commit atrocity, and that any attempt by Shi'ia to defend themselves, let alone exact revenge, constitutes Civil War which will Destroy Iraq and embarrass George W. Bush. That Decision has been used by al-Qaeda with uncommon skill to support their propaganda, and vice versa.
Victims of al Qaeda atrocities don't fit. Al Qaeda, being the Good Guys, cannot by definition commit atrocity -- although they may, at times, be sufficiently maddened by the oppression they suffer to become a trifle overzealous (reminding us somewhat of the great and good man, Pol Pot).
But throwing it out to be debunked -- ah, that does fit. It will turn out not to be true, because al Qaeda don't do atrocity. Just ask your friendly neighborhood Press.
Regards,
Ric
Posted by: Ric Locke at December 13, 2007 07:17 PM (rPOv5)
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But it doesn't say that al Qaeda in Iraq committed the mass-murder, but that the left it behind - so it could still be anybody's guess who actually did it, al Quaeda just came and visited, and they left - they're mysterious you know, it's all behind them now...
Posted by: DirtCrashr at December 13, 2007 07:31 PM (VNM5w)
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I can see how the press could easily have followed Ric's narrative, or CY's. Either way, they don't seem to have latched onto the concept that printing known falsehoods--for whatever reason--is not good for the public's trust in them as news sources.
Posted by: C-C-G at December 13, 2007 08:43 PM (CGiAW)
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I hear tell of yet another drowned woman in Ted Kennedy's car. No time to verify it, so I'll just report it here.
Posted by: Korla Pundit at December 13, 2007 10:49 PM (0Jnzc)
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Professional journalist's high standard reporting.
Posted by: ic at December 14, 2007 02:56 AM (NM7Uv)
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Eric Alterman's Alternate Universe
Alterman compares yesterday's circular firing squad of current and former TNR staffers to Rathergate... from a "nuanced" perspective.
The situation is, in many aspects, similar to the CBS Dan Rather mess, as the story has yet to be proven true or false, but remains insufficiently documented.
The community-based reality. Don't leave ours without it.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
07:21 AM
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1
"insufficiently documented"
Ah the blessings of a secondary education...
Posted by: Joel Mackey at December 13, 2007 08:21 AM (tGm4a)
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Eric Alterman is a pedophile who raped and murdered a 3 year old boy in 1997 and then bribed the local proscecuter to keep from being indicted...according to an insufficiently documented story I read somewhere. I'm sure Alterman will have no objections to that story being circulated while the exact details get nailed down, even if they never get nailed down.
Posted by: Pall Mall at December 13, 2007 08:29 AM (lWCFm)
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You're a sicko, Pall Mall.
Posted by: novanom at December 13, 2007 08:38 AM (PfxrD)
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Pall Mall's a sicko novanom? Altman's the one that is supposed to have done those horrible things -- and the evidence that Altman has done them is every bit as solid as that presented by Dan Rather in his accusations against President Bush. I'd say save your outrage for Altman.
Posted by: Mark L at December 13, 2007 08:49 AM (2X4q0)
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I was in the Army circa early seventies when those documents were alleged to have produced. My MOS was 72F, a communications specialty. I worked with those kinds of documents and the whole range of equipment available in that time.
I got my first PC in 1980. I got my computer science degree in 1986. I have worked with every version of Microsoft Word from 1.0 on.
I am an expert on both ends of the issues related to the Rather documents; How military documents were produced and how the Rather documents were presented.
Those Rather documents could not have been worse forgeries if they had been done with pink crayon on a paper bag.
Posted by: Fred at December 13, 2007 08:59 AM (RO9Ei)
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I believe Pall Mall's point was that if you give the benefit of the doubt to "insufficiently documented" claims, then you're opening the doors to slander and libel without limit.
Posted by: Rob Crawford at December 13, 2007 09:01 AM (ZJ/un)
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I haven't seen any evidence indicating that Alterman is not a murderous pedophile. I don't suppose we'll ever know the truth...
Posted by: Pablo at December 13, 2007 09:09 AM (yTndK)
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Guys, I know your trying to prove the absurdity of Alterman's position on the Beauchamp and Rathergate stories, but please, let's not go there with the equally absurd "insufficiently documented" story again him, okay?
Thanks.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at December 13, 2007 09:20 AM (vxbTC)
9
Eric Alterman is a pedophile who raped and murdered a 3 year old boy in 1997 and then bribed the local proscecuter to keep from being indicted...according to an insufficiently documented story I read somewhere.
Hmmm. I read the same thing recently.
I'm sure Alterman will have no objections to that story being circulated while the exact details get nailed down, even if they never get nailed down.
Agreed. I'm passing the story on to my cable news channels right now.
Good. Goose. Gander.
Posted by: Fen at December 13, 2007 09:44 AM (2bnGW)
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Ah, sorry CY - I didn't see your 9:20 post.
Please delete my response to Pall.
Posted by: Fen at December 13, 2007 09:46 AM (2bnGW)
11
So, what's good for the goose isn't good for the gander?
Posted by: Techie at December 13, 2007 09:58 AM (AV8Z6)
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CY, stop trying to cover for a homicidal pedophile! I read the same account of Alterman as did Fen. While "fake, but accurate" may put too fine a spin on the outing of this reprobate, the public has a right to know nonetheless.
Posted by: Al Fin at December 13, 2007 10:00 AM (6PCBb)
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"Those Rather documents could not have been worse forgeries if they had been done with pink crayon on a paper bag."
But pink crayons and paper bags existed in the '70s!!!
Posted by: Jim Treacher at December 13, 2007 10:11 AM (Ugvmy)
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I heard unsubstantiated allegations that Eric Alterman was a journalist. I also heard, based on undocumented sources who refused to be identified, that someone somewhere takes him seriously.
In the absence of proof, we'll never know.
Posted by: DaveP. at December 13, 2007 10:15 AM (VUpJX)
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Hmmmm.
"I also heard, based on undocumented sources who refused to be identified, that someone somewhere takes him seriously."
I used to take him seriously but then the doctors finally diagnosed my problem and now I can safely say that I'm much better.

Posted by: memomachine at December 13, 2007 10:22 AM (3pvQO)
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" "Those Rather documents could not have been worse forgeries if they had been done with pink crayon on a paper bag."
But pink crayons and paper bags existed in the '70s!!!"
They couldn't have been more definitely a forgery if they had been written using a Glitter Pink Hannah Montana crayon on a SpongeBob SquarePants Lunch bag!
Forensics Forever!
otpu
Posted by: Otpu at December 13, 2007 10:23 AM (9gSRq)
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Got to laugh at Alterman who is more than a little annoyed in finding Elspeth Reeve "pissing all over" Foer as she "no doubt helped cause the entire mess". Right-o Alterman, in your own universe of How Stuff Works, it is the twenty-something intern who is responsible for the editorial controls that protect the magazine and its now MIA credibility.
Only in the altered reality that is the world of lefty media, could an org chart be turned upside down with the critical responsibilities abdicated to those with the least time served and invested in the organization.
Alterman's last words to Reeve: "How nice for you. Now go away..."
Sorry about that inconvenient truth Alterman. It sure must hurt when the facts refuse to bend and fit your meme.
Posted by: Justacanuck at December 13, 2007 10:58 AM (hgxwr)
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This guy is a perfect example of why the leftist media in this country will never understand the reasons behind the outrage over this affair.
It goes beyond the fact that the stories were fabulism.
It's the fact that they outrageously slandered the men and women in uniform that are putting their lives on the line everyday, so sleazy bastards like Foer, Beauchamp and others, can continue to do so.
It's the fact that these pack of lies inflamed the enemies we are fighting in the region.
There is no instrument in existence to measure my outrage at these people.
James Dodd
USMC 1st MEF 83-87
Posted by: Conservative CBU at December 13, 2007 11:29 AM (La7YV)
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"But pink crayons and paper bags existed in the '70s!!!"
Access to military grade pink crayons was strictly controlled.
Posted by: Fred at December 13, 2007 11:46 AM (RO9Ei)
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Reminds me of the phrase "undocumented workers" as if it were simply a matter of misplaced paperwork or a typo or two on their birth certificate. They are undocumented because they are not citizens! There is "insufficient documentation" because there is nothing to document.
Posted by: Zach at December 13, 2007 12:12 PM (W7dTL)
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Someone actually believes (other than Rather) that those documents were authentic? Good Lord what a moron!
Posted by: Capitalist Infidel at December 13, 2007 12:33 PM (Lgw9b)
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Apparently, Alterman does not think that editors should be responsible for the stories put out on their watch. What responsibility? I am merely the editor.
Posted by: Penfold at December 13, 2007 12:37 PM (lF2Kk)
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As someone who had clearance in the mid 70's (actually) I had access to military grade pink crayons and paper bags.
I believe I have a document where Bush's commander reprimaded him for being a "dooty head". Surprisingly it is in pink crayon on a paper bag.
On a more serious note, I had access to the best machines at LANL and none could do what the TANG document has. Alterman is a complete moron (something Rather aspires to).
Posted by: David at December 13, 2007 01:03 PM (1+EkR)
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These clowns can be caught with their hands in the cookie jar all the way up to the elbow--editorially speaking that is--and the editorial crime will always be "insufficiently documented".
Kinda tough to be in the "reality based world" as these 'gentlemen' claim to be, and yet unable to recognize and acknowledge reality when it's chomping them in the backside big time.
Posted by: Michael J. Myers at December 13, 2007 01:16 PM (LZ3cP)
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Since Elspeth's in a chatty mood someone really should ask her how she came to be one of her hubby's own fact checkers. Was she assigned the position? By whom? And wasn't she concerned at least about an appearance of impropriety in such a relationship?
Oh, and just how did STB come to the attention of the deciders at TNR in the first place?
Just more items that remain insufficiently documented; but not ones that Alterman would give a damn about knowing.
Posted by: ThomasD at December 13, 2007 02:50 PM (gMIZD)
26
Kinda tough to be in the "reality based world" as these 'gentlemen' claim to be
Wasn't it a Righty who came up with that title?
Posted by: novanom at December 13, 2007 03:53 PM (22/Qe)
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novanom - No, I believe the term "reality-based community" came about as a lefty reaction to Bush's talking about the "faith-based community" several years back.
Posted by: Robin Munn at December 13, 2007 04:13 PM (bS0D6)
28
I believe the term "reality-based community" came about as a lefty reaction to Bush's talking about the "faith-based community" several years back.
No, it was a Bush advisor who came up with it. He was scoffing at the idea of solutions to problems coming "from your judicious study of discernible reality." His point being that going through life basing one's actions on judiciously-studied reality is for fools.
Posted by: novanom at December 13, 2007 05:54 PM (22/Qe)
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Ahh, I see novanom a/k/a nunaim is still arguing just for the sake of arguing. If a conservative was to say that ice is cold he'd be quite happy arguing the opposite.
Posted by: C-C-G at December 13, 2007 08:46 PM (CGiAW)
30
I see novanom a/k/a nunaim is still arguing just for the sake of arguing
So I disagree with someone and bring a link to back it up, and I'm "arguing just for the sake of arguing." That's worthy of your scorn, but the pedophile accusation is not. Holy toledo, your values are out of whack.
Posted by: novanom at December 13, 2007 09:05 PM (g0MRO)
31
Nice try Novanon--but no banana. If you go over to the Daily Kossacks or to the Huffington poseurs, you'll see frequent self reverential references to the alleged fact that they are, in fact, the "reality based community".
Now as a sample of the "reality based community's" rhetoric, Ms. Pelosi said today that the United States did not have a President.
Now she may mean that in her view the United States does not have a legitimately elected President (some old wounds die hard when your grip on reality is not too firmly based) but last time I checked, someone was sleeping in the White House, riding on Air Force One, and generally kicking the crap out of the Dhimmicrats led by Ms. Pelosi. If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck and talks like a duck---it must be a duck. Pelosi doesn't get it.
But in the "reality based world" every single thing that goes wrong is the responsibility of Dubya. Man, I don't know how one single person can get all that stuff done!
Posted by: Michael J. Myers at December 13, 2007 09:14 PM (LZ3cP)
32
Here's "How to be CCG for Dummies":
If a lefty responds to a misstatement or a foolish opinion by a righty, make fun of the lefty for responding.
If a lefty doesn't respond to a misstatement or a foolish opinion by a righty, tell the lefty that "your silence speaks volumes" and assert that said lack of response is a de facto admission that the righty has been correct all along.
Posted by: novanom at December 13, 2007 09:15 PM (g0MRO)
33
Now she may mean that in her view the United States does not have a legitimately elected President (some old wounds die hard when your grip on reality is not too firmly based) but last time I checked, someone was sleeping in the White House, riding on Air Force One, and generally kicking the crap out of the Dhimmicrats led by Ms. Pelosi. If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck and talks like a duck---it must be a duck. Pelosi doesn't get it.
Shorter Michael J. Myers:
Huh? "Figurative language"? What th' hell's that? Must be some kinda HollyWEIRD talk. Go get me mah Moon Pie and an RC Cola, Brandine!
Posted by: novanom at December 14, 2007 08:36 AM (JtSwx)
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Thank you, novanom, or nunaim, or numnuts..
We're all refreshed and challenged by your unique point of view.If I throw a stick, will you leave?
Posted by: Huntress at December 14, 2007 01:55 PM (Dqxeq)
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If I throw a stick, will you leave?
Probably not.
Posted by: novanom at December 14, 2007 03:36 PM (22/Qe)
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That's probably the most honest thing nunaim/novanom has ever said here at CY.
Huntress, the troll known as nunaim, novanom, and possibly other monikers doesn't seem to comprehend the concept of "not being welcome." He's been banned at least twice that I know of, and yet here he is, still trolling.
He was last banned for arguing about--get this--the size of a door in a garage... and not a door for cars, he was arguing about the size of a door meant for people. I kid you not, here's the thread in question.
Let his record speak for itself.
Posted by: C-C-G at December 14, 2007 07:49 PM (CGiAW)
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Yet, on the other hand, I calmly and politely correct a misconception about the origin of the phrase "reality-based community"--and provide a link to back it up--and I'm still told that I'm full of sh!t and that I'm arguing to no purpose. CCG, you have Nunaim Derangement Syndrome.
Posted by: novanom at December 15, 2007 09:11 AM (ZjmuZ)
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As usual, nunaim, your link proves nothing, as has already been pointed out. An nameless person who is supposed to be a Bush advisor is hardly any proof. And it's been shown that the left itself proudly uses the phrase, and you did not even bother to post a substantive refutation of that claim, instead posting just more spin and personal attacks--you didn't even quote the portion of the post that dealt with how the left has adopted the phrase.
And then you take umbrage at me pointing out how you act? Methinks thou dost protest too much.
Posted by: C-C-G at December 15, 2007 10:42 AM (CGiAW)
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Methinks thou dost protest too much.
You do this all the time, CCG. Your fingers apparently move independently of your brain, because you're always sticking in stuff like "I said good day, sir!" and "Methinks thou dost protest too much" despite the facts that they are a) lame, and b) not applicable to the situation at hand.
Once again, you've tried lamely to score points by asserting that I've avoided an issue that was not actually an issue, and so not worth avoiding.
Why on Earth would I deny the fact that Lefties have embraced the term "reality-based community?" Of course the Left has accepted it. Seeing as how it originated as a term of contempt by a White House aide who scoffed at the idea of basing policy and actions on reality, accepting the mantle of "reality-based" does nothing more than highlight the "hallucination-based" reality of much of the Right.
Remember: in Susskind's article the aide was not condemning the left for deluding themselves into thinking that they are reality-based, when, in fact, they're not; he was actually condemning them for thinking things through too much--contemplating before acting.
Some people think that judicious contemplation of reality is good, rather than bad.
And now you're going to say that the story's a lie because the official wasn't named? Note that you're now moving the goalposts. People have ripped on me for occasionally not providing links; now that I do, the link isn't good enough. What's the standard of proof for the discussion now?
Are you going to question EVERY SINGLE story from EVERY SINGLE media outlet if a name isn't listed? Or are you questioning this link simply because I posted it? What actual reason do you have for questioning this link?
Stop complaining about my link and post one of your own.
While you're at it, get over your NDS.
Posted by: novanom at December 15, 2007 01:59 PM (ZjmuZ)
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I question anything that comes from an anonymous source, O One With Multiple Banned Names.
I also question any assertion, mind you, any assertion made by someone who thinks that the size of a door in a garage designed for the entry of people--not doors designed to let cars in--is a subject for argument or debate.
In short, O Person Who Tries New Names Often, if you told me stone was hard, I'd try a rock as a pillow.
And I am done letting you drag this thread off topic.
Oh, and just to annoy you...
Good day, sir. I said, Good Day!
Posted by: C-C-G at December 15, 2007 02:13 PM (CGiAW)
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I'm willing to accept that that NYTimes article is where the "reality-based" term first got published, and that it spread from there. Anonymous sources are always troubling, of course -- one can't prove one way or the other that the source really said that, or whether the reporter made up the quote, because one can't contact the source and ask. But I'm willing to assume the quote is genuinely from a Bush aide until shown evidence to the contrary.
But I can't help but wonder... what difference does it make? Why are we arguing about this? Whether the term was invented by a Bush aide or by the NYTimes reporter, it was quickly and proudly picked up by the Left, as a badge of honor. Two examples here and here, found by a ten-second Google search.
So, novanom -- when you said "Wasn't it a Righty that came up with that title?", it appears you were correct. But I'm entirely failing to grasp the point you were trying to make with that off-hand comment. Did you mean that because a Righty came up with it, it's no longer ironic in the least if those who now proudly call themselves "reality-based" ignore reality? Because that conclusion doesn't follow from the premise. Or, to put it in more colloquial language, "That dog won't hunt".
So if you had a point to make by pointing out who invented the term, please explain.
Posted by: Robin Munn at December 17, 2007 02:10 PM (bS0D6)
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So Ron Suskind wrote an article in which he says an unnamed Bush adviser waxed fantastic about how the American empire is creating new realities and leaving those in the "reality-based community," who merely study reality for solutions, in the dust. Of course it is not an official pronouncement from the Bush administration.
In fact no one on the right supports this language, but the left embraced it anyway because it says exactly what the left wants to believe about itself and, conversely, about those who support President Bush. To my mind, this is just more substanceless "framing" from the left and a further demonstration that the left is not concerned with reality.
If you want to use someone's words against them, better get a hard quote from a named person on a specific occasion--i.e. something based on reality--and not just some hearsay that make you feel superior.
Posted by: huxley at December 17, 2007 06:49 PM (rOvvS)
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And they call Bush stubborn and living in a bubble/bunker?
Posted by: Mark at December 18, 2007 10:10 AM (cFKis)
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December 12, 2007
Open Season
Just when you thought the TNR debacle over "Shock Troops" was over, current and former TNR staffers have begun firing at each other.
In the New York
Observer...
Bridal blog?
Quoth Elspeth:
"Yeah, it's a bummer, but it's hard to shed any tears over Frank," Elspeth Reeve was telling The Observer in a phone interview Friday, the day before her husband, U.S. Army Pvt. Scott Thomas Beauchamp, joined her at her mother’s house in Missouri for his 30-day leave.
And:
Ms. Reeve said she was surprised to learn, in early November while visiting her husband in Germany (where he was transferred upon completing his tour of duty in Iraq), that Mr. Foer planned to retract the stories. She said that she and Mr. Beauchamp had not expected Mr. Foer to take any decisive action until Mr. Beauchamp returned to the U.S. this week, at which point they thought it would be much easier for him to speak up in his own defense.
"I think Scott thought Frank was on his side, you know? And that he understood that he was in a really difficult situation and so would be patient until Scott got out of Iraq," Ms. Reeve said. "I don't think Scott realized the limits on Frank’s patience."
Ms. Reeve also argued that Mr. Foer's retraction, titled "The Fog of War," had failed to prove that any of Mr. Beauchamp’s stories contained fabrications—all it did, she said, was demonstrate that Mr. Foer was tired of dealing with the scandal.
At least one current
TNR staffers had other opinions:
According to Jonathan Chait, a senior editor at TNR, the magazine received little cooperation from Mr. Beauchamp throughout the investigation process. "The basis [for the retraction] was just that Scott is maddening," he said. "He's just flaky, he's irresponsible, he doesn't do things that are in his own obvious interest to do. ... Scott was the guy who lives in the group house and is supposed to pay the electric bill and just doesn't, and the lights get shut off. Frank was the guy who had the lights shut out on him."
Hmmm... perhaps they should have figured that out
before they published three of his stories?
The most damning comment, however, comes from
TNR editor in chief, Martin Peretz—who was notably mute throughout the entire scandal.
"Certainly in retrospect we shouldn't have published them," he told The Observer Monday. "They did not meet the highest standards of proof."
I would have expected Peretz to provide more backing for embattled editor Franklin Foer. Interesting...
Update: And more today, including a previously unmentioned conversation between Peter Scoblic, Elspeth Reeve, and Scott Beauchamp.
Why didn't Frank mention that conversation in his 14-page opus, and why won't Scoblic discuss it now?
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Posted by: Will Myers at December 12, 2007 06:36 PM (VZ0Yh)
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And other than Beauchamp (and that guy who fed some inside info to Ace) everyone is still working at the New Republic? We should have a pool on who gets fired first (from this date).
Posted by: Joe at December 12, 2007 06:41 PM (+GRGs)
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The New Republic pushed the Bush administration line on the Iraq war big-time, gullibly regurgitating every line they were fed. Then they tried to get back into the good graces of the left with the Beauchamp stories, gullibly regurgitating every line they were fed.
The magazine should die a slow, painful death of attrition as subscribers abandon it. And I think we'll all understand if those working there now update their resumes to say "crack whore" rather than "editor/reporter for The New Republic" for their most recent work experience, just to bump up their respectability level a notch or two.
Posted by: bob at December 12, 2007 07:11 PM (SGGuV)
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These stories always make me wonder how much other stuff out there is made up.
It's scary, because we're only catching the most obvious fakes. If Bill Burkett had had the modicum of common sense to buy a 1971 typewriter off Ebay for his fake National Guard memo story, would CBS ever have retracted or fired Rather? Seems unlikely.
Posted by: TallDave at December 12, 2007 07:25 PM (r1Ip+)
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Joe,
Ms Reeve, the wife, left TNR, hence her comments.
Posted by: The Drill SGT at December 12, 2007 07:26 PM (JWSVd)
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Mr. Peretz said that Scott Beauchamp's tales didn't meet the "highest" standards of proof? I have to disagree.
Beauchamp's stories didn't even meet the "lowest" standards of proof, nor is The New Republic currently meeting even the lowest standards of ethics in publishing. Not after printing Mr. Foer's 13 page non-apologetic semi-retraction, which was more an attack on the magazine's critics than anything else.
Since Mr. Foer is still employed by the magazine, while a truth-telling whistle-blower is not, one can only conclude that TNR no longer expects to be taken seriously.
And I cannot imagine that anyone still does.
Posted by: Charlie Eklund at December 12, 2007 07:59 PM (d/RyS)
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We are witnessing the death of truth. (But not by me.)
Posted by: Mary Nusbaum at December 12, 2007 08:21 PM (t3BzP)
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(I'm only pointing out that it's happening. I wish to also point out I'm taking steps to make sure truth doesn't starve of oxygen.)
Posted by: Mary Nusbaum at December 12, 2007 08:23 PM (t3BzP)
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Peretz just threw Foer over the side with that last comment.
I Am Not An Editor - but it seems to me, that in most magazines, an editor of more than one year's tenure would resign if he'd heard the publisher questioning his ability in public. Usually that is a sign that said publisher is thinking of firing said editor. Better to leave with dignity right?
So why hasn't Foer quit? Is he *asking* to get fired? Maybe he'd already told Peretz that Peretz would have to fire him before he'd leave.
Posted by: David Ross at December 12, 2007 08:27 PM (4A7ip)
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The scary thing is, is why the TNR even contemplated publishing, nation-wide, a series of articles by an unknown, untested 'writer' of no provenance or history, no background of work--then pushed them so hard and so long. Stephen Glass had a portfolio of some pretty good work behind him before he went off the rails, so there is some reason why he was supported--at first. But Beauchamp? Who is this dork? Bad editorial judgement? Uh, yeah. Oh--the next act will be when bero Beauchamp leaves the Army and starts another series of fiction-as-nonfiction, of how he was intimidated by the Army and forced to remain silent--then watch his stories get wilder and wilder, each one an exercise in self-promotion. Mark my words!
Posted by: M. A. George at December 12, 2007 08:47 PM (kYfdk)
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TallDave says: These stories always make me wonder how much other stuff out there is made up.
Years ago I was talking to a friend who's a doctor, and he said that the inaccuracy of medical stuff on TV infuriated him. I made some comment about the demands of drama, and he said, "No, the news!" He said just about every medical story was botched by the three networks and the cable networks, botched utterly, and cited examples that would be clear to any doc. "Why can't they be as accurate about medicine as they are about other stuff?"
That got me thinking. I have pretty deep knowledge in several areas, but the deepest are probably aviation and military operations, particularly special operations. And everything about the areas I know best are always misreported on the news. So I started to ask other people... businessmen, cops, lawyers, engineers. And everybody has the same problem.
Namely, we know that everything they report about our domain is bull. But we assume that the stuff they report about other domains must be accurate. Why that assumption?
In fact, it's all bull. Sometimes it's bull because they were careless or sloppy, and sometimes bull because they set out to report the story with it already framed in their little C+ English undergrad minds. But always bull.
Consider Peter Arnett, told a lifetime of phony whoppers before finally making one big enough to get the sack. He still works in TV news.
Consider Rather, who still has a job (if not an audience) despite being exposed as a phony on a scale that makes Beauchamp and his editor Fabricating Frank Foer look like Lilliputians.
The reason Peretz hasn't fired Foer is that Peretz doesn't see anything wrong with defrauding his readers, in the service of his greater cause -- whatever the hell that is. Same goes for Zengerle. These guys wanted to wear the bloody shirt of a phony, and now they're complaing the stuff rubs off on them. Duh.
But hey, the news business is nothing if not forgiving. Beauchamp, Foer, Zengerle and even Peretz have no worries about working in news and commentary.
Remember, TNR under Peretz/Zengerle/Foer kept Eve Fairbanks after she was caught fabricating a story -- as far as I know that fraud artiste is still on staff, keeping the tradition of TNR standard-bearers Stephen Glass and Ruth Shalit alive.
The only action TNR took was to fire Robert McGee -- for leaking the fact that Beauchamp's wife was a fact-checker (ha!) at the rag, a fact that Foer, Peretz and all were desperate to keep secret at the time (and a fact that may explain why both the initial fact-checking and Foer's comical "re-reporting" were so incredibly lame).
Got that? The guys who participated in the fraud, all solid in their jobs (Beauchamp was never a staffer, although, they might have fired his wife -- neither of them have said). The guy that told the truth -- he's outa there. That should tell you all you need to know about the kind of integrity Marty Peretz operates under and expects.
Posted by: Kevin R.C. 'Hognose' O'Brien at December 12, 2007 09:07 PM (LkeNv)
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Kevin R.C. 'Hognose' O'Brien wrote, "Namely, we know that everything they report about our domain is bull. But we assume that the stuff they report about other domains must be accurate. Why that assumption?"
Michael Crichton in Why Speculate? calls this the "Murray Gell-Mann Amnesia effect."
"Briefly stated, the Gell-Mann Amnesia effect works as follows. You open the newspaper to an article on some subject you know well. In Murray's case, physics. In mine, show business. You read the article and see the journalist has absolutely no understanding of either the facts or the issues. Often, the article is so wrong it actually presents the story backward-reversing cause and effect. I call these the 'wet streets cause rain' stories. Paper's full of them."
"In any case, you read with exasperation or amusement the multiple errors in a story-and then turn the page to national or international affairs, and read with renewed interest as if the rest of the newspaper was somehow more accurate about far-off Palestine than it was about the story you just read. You turn the page, and forget what you know."
"That is the Gell-Mann Amnesia effect. I'd point out it does not operate in other arenas of life. In ordinary life, if somebody consistently exaggerates or lies to you, you soon discount everything they say."
The rest of the article is worth reading.
Posted by: Looking Glass at December 12, 2007 09:24 PM (XvtJG)
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Toldja that Foer would keep his job.
The MSM interprets truth as damage, and routes around it.
Posted by: Mike G in Corvallis at December 12, 2007 09:39 PM (qmdN5)
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"So why hasn't Foer quit? "
Where the hell else would he get a job? What else has he ever done?
Posted by: richard mcenroe at December 12, 2007 10:03 PM (yIy7z)
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I just tell my students that I never, ever believe any stats I read or see in the MSM. The 'use' of stats in the MSM is almost always a perversion, and at minimum badly interpreted and reported.
Posted by: JorgXMcKie at December 12, 2007 10:26 PM (OIFDa)
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"I think Scott thought Frank was on his side, you know?"
Thought? It was bloody obvious - Scott had served Foer up some of the most delicious gossip since Watergate, and undoubtedly they all agreed it would strike a magnificent blow against the Army, plus Bush & Co.
Fact-checking was the smallest concern they had - the Narrative was correct, and who would know? Foer was egregious in 'verifying' the story of his pseudonymous author with anonymous voices taken on absolute faith. Foer WAS on Scott's side for months, and only some inconvenient blogs spoiled the game. The MSM of course investigated with the same factual diligence that they applied to the Swiftboat assertions - that is, zero.
Posted by: Hank at December 12, 2007 10:27 PM (YeWPs)
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The story has some interest for speculative purpose. But all these quotes come from someone at TNR.
So the comment about Murray Gell-Mann and that from Kevin should be heeded. Why think anyone involved now intends to be any more honest than before?
Posted by: K at December 12, 2007 10:31 PM (LIGtI)
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Kevin R.C., etc., etc.:
Absolutely true. Why do we need the world explained to us by liberal arts majors with little or no understanding of science, history, finance or economics?
Posted by: Vinny Vidivici at December 12, 2007 10:38 PM (O+oXe)
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Looking Glass makes a great point. I fully understood this when I got more educated about the facts concerning the effectiveness of gun control as a crime control measure, and the backgrounds of those peddling it as national policy.
In response, I stopped watching televised news programs and reading newspapers. I believe nothing I happen to see on TV news programs or what I read in the paper unless I can independently verify what is in the story.
Posted by: Mark at December 12, 2007 10:42 PM (lBGZm)
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Looking Glass makes an interesting point about the Gell-Mann effect. I had never heard of it before but it makes sense.
I have a bit of a counter example, though.
About ten years ago, I stopped subscribing to The Economist because I realized that their economics articles were often half BS. (I have a PhD in economics.) I began to wonder about the accuracy of their descriptions of Malaysian politics, particle physics and other things of which I knew very little.
The Economist's condescending cultural biases also spurred along my decision to cancel my subscription.
Very interesting though.
Posted by: Chris at December 12, 2007 10:46 PM (q7DL4)
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Chris,
Please forgive me if I'm missing the obvious, but how is your example "counter" to the "Gell-Mann Amnesia effect" that LookingGlass points to or the (same effect) "Hognose" points to?
I've noticed the same thing. Whenever I read, in the MSM, about a topic with which I am at least familiar and comfortable, I find the article at best shallow and immature and at worst apparent fraud. The more one knows about a topic the more obvious this seems to be.
Yet somehow we believe they report well about everything else. Very odd.
Posted by: Knucklehead at December 12, 2007 11:06 PM (1PRis)
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Thanks for the post, Looking Glass! My own epiphany (if you can call it that) came years ago after the incident at Three Mile Island. During the early 1980s, when I was an undergraduate in electrical engineering, the MSM was fully into the anti-nuclear power movement. I would read with horror the blatantly inaccurate stories concerning nuclear technology that were printed in the most respected newspapers and magazines. Television was no better. As a result, I stopped taking anything they said at face value.
Today, on the rare instances when I read an MSM newspaper/magazine or watch the MSM news on TV, I snort in disgust whenever they use buzz phrases like "scientific consensus", "leading scientists", “scientific community” or the ubiquitous all-purpose "experts". I have found by experience that an "expert” is MSM-speak for someone who will parrot whatever rubbish the MSM happens to believe in.
Posted by: Mwalimu Daudi at December 12, 2007 11:13 PM (xJxUK)
23
It sounds like Mr. Peretz was more like Editor-in-Absentia than Editor-in-Chief. He seemed to just stand by and watch his magazine crash and burn. Why was that? What does he get paid for?
Posted by: kcom at December 12, 2007 11:15 PM (x6Tki)
24
All you ever need to know about the quality of reporting is this: reporters are the guys who couldn't succeed as English majors. Why in G-d's name would you trust them with ANYTHING requiring insight and understanding?!
I have a Ph.D. in Engineering and was all-but-dissertation for one in Physics. Anything at all controversial or "news" in those fields I know better than to believe without reading the actual papers the article is based upon. And as for statistics, forget it. Middle school math is beyond most reporters, and anything involving correlations, statistics, and deeper analysis is invariably hopelessly bungled.
Strangely enough, the NYTimes is one of the few that have a couple of reporters who do decent hard science reporting, albeit with a very ideological bias. But they're not good enough to justify the rest of the paper.
Posted by: nerdbert at December 12, 2007 11:21 PM (8/2ZB)
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Get this for irony: "Jonathan Chait, a senior editor at TNR, the magazine received little cooperation from Mr. Beauchamp throughout the investigation process..." Chait wrote an opinion essay in the LA Times that said liberals dominate the universities because they are smarter. These days, he and his buddies are looking really, really stupid.
Posted by: jim in L.A. at December 12, 2007 11:28 PM (6GjPk)
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"Jonathan Chait, a senior editor at TNR, the magazine received little cooperation from Mr. Beauchamp throughout the investigation process..."
One wonders if perhaps Chait immediately started blaming Beauchamp, and therefore Beauchamp wasn't in a cooperative mood.
We all know that most lefties like to blame others... it's part and parcel of their whole victimhood mentality.
Posted by: C-C-G at December 12, 2007 11:35 PM (CGiAW)
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Interesting discussion ...
I've seen this lack of factual foundation in MSM for a long time. The Reporting of the Vietnam war was were it began to become clear for me.
I for one these days, do NOT take all the rest of the MSM's reporting as good reporting, and only disregard areas I have particualr knowledge of.
Quite the reverse.
I ask myself when did it start? How long has it been going on? What has been gotten away with?
How many lies have been told?
As if this is a symptom of only the last 10 or so years.
I've long since dumped any an all MSN. I have become my own news organization.
Rich
Posted by: Rich at December 12, 2007 11:39 PM (SZ0c/)
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The tendency of the press to "enhance" or outright fabricate stories is nothing new.
52 years ago when I was a sophmore in high school the local paper printed a "human interest" story about my father visiting a local sports legend to wish him a happy 80th birthday. The only true fact in the story was that my dad had been in the same room at the same time with the old gentleman and the reporter. All the rest was pure fiction. No harm was done to anyone and in fact it was a good lesson for me. Taught me not to believe ANY single news source and to seek my information from credible experts, not reporters.
Posted by: glenn at December 13, 2007 01:29 AM (zp+Xy)
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Thanks Chris. I'm a long-time subscriber to the Economist. Years ago I noticed their reporting on military matters was shallow and ignorant. I shrugged it off. After my deployment to Iraq I became extremely irritated by their ignorant, opinionated, counterfactual, but utterly predicatble coverage of the war in Iraq. But, I told myself, they know a lot about economics and finance right? I guess not. That clinches it, I'm done reading their dreck.
Posted by: Draco at December 13, 2007 07:29 AM (2NjBY)
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Per the discussion on the media inaccuracy, I long ago made the decision that anything I see on TV is to be viwed as entertainment. If a "reporter" is talking about something I assume it to be just as factual as Seinfeld or any other tv show.
Posted by: The Ace at December 13, 2007 10:08 AM (BNlV7)
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I disagree that Peretz's comment is a slam on Foer. Re-read it:
"Certainly in retrospect we shouldn't have published them," he told The Observer Monday. "They did not meet the highest standards of proof."
Peretz is saying:
(1) Hindsight is 20-20. Oh, well. Gotta break some eggs, to make an omelet.
(2) By implication - The Beauchamp stories *did* (or *do*) meet, say, medium standards of proof.
In short, Peretz is saying: **In retrospect** TNR should not have published, but, publication was reasonable or understandable based on what TNR knew or believed **at the time**. Which is baloney, of course. But my point is, Peretz is providing a fig leaf for Foer and the magazine - or, I should say, has bought into Foer's fig leaf.
Posted by: tjmmz at December 13, 2007 10:34 AM (RlE1Q)
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And as the Observer article goes on to say:
Mr. Peretz also said Mr. Foer’s piece should finally put to rest the notion, advanced by some conservative bloggers, that Mr. Beauchamp’s stories were intended to undermine the troops’ mission.
“There was certainly no editorial decision to trash the United States Army, because as you know, The New Republic has a very—what shall I say?—careful view of the war,” said Mr. Peretz. “So we would not be motivated in any way to say, ‘Hey this is hot! It makes our soldiers look like shit!’”
So again folks: Smell the coffee. Peretz is still providing forms of cover for Foer.
Posted by: tjmmz at December 13, 2007 10:39 AM (RlE1Q)
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I have often wondered if any of the big media would still exist if they were held to the standards of every other business. When I read the type of wayward (I'm being charitable here) articles mentioned above, I think "journalism malpractice" -- and that is the least of their shortcomings. What is worse is the incredible volume of simply dishonest reporting.
Think of the incalcuable damage done by CBS/Walter Cronkite (and many others) by reporting that the Tet Offensive was a military defeat for the South Vietnamese and US. Wouldn't it be nice if we could hold journalists responsible for their malpractice (if it didn't destroy the First Amendment)? Reporting enemy propaganda as fact qualifies as journalistic malpractice in my opinion.
I, too, have had several opportunities over the years to see media coverage of events of which I have personal knowledge. I have read stories about events in which I was a participant -- and they never get it right -- usually not even very close. The best they do is to write a story which is incomplete (perhaps due to space limitations)and has minor errors (perhaps from not really understanding the topic, or not having time to cover the entire event).
Another MO I have seen is to be nearly 100 per cent factually accurate, but by selectively using facts, and quoting only one side of any issue, they write a story which is 100 per cent misleading.
And of course, there is the agenda-driven coverage, like TNR/Beauchamp, Dan Rather and the TANG issue, where, at the very least, the agenda has driven the "reporter" to be rationalizing that the ends justify the means. So we go from the old ink-smudged scribe rule of "If your mother says she loves you -- check it out" to "I know my story is right, but I just can't prove enough of the facts to say it is fully verified."
Here is one small example of the difference between what I witnessed and what was reported: About three years ago I attended an event in which Pres. Bush gave a major foreign policy speech to a crowd that was primarily military and military families. If I reported it, I would say that President Bush was greeted nearly like a rock star, and the audience was abuzz before, during and after of what a fine commander-in-chief he is, and how personable he was, and in what high regard he held the military. His concern, respect, and love for the active duty military was abundantly clear, and moving. When I read the New York Times article covering the event, I wondered if the reporter and I were really at the same place at the same time. The NYT said the president gave a "grim speech" which was greeted by "polite applause."
Posted by: jmurphy at December 13, 2007 11:31 AM (h7lol)
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Did you see the very first comment on the wedding blog? "Can the New Republic stop hiring 22-yr-olds to tell me about politics now?"
Hah!
Posted by: Kevin at December 13, 2007 12:46 PM (f0QzP)
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Reporting fiction as fact?
In 1972 I was a weapon systems officer (WSO) in an F4E Squadron at DaNang AB, Vietnam. The North had kicked off their Easter Offensive. Nixon countered with Operation Linebacker, a real air campaign over the North. The media, who had not given the war any coverage, suddenly showed up in force and uniformly unwelcome. If they filmed us taxiing out, pilots would give them peace sign, WSOs, the finger. We refused to be interviewed. Soon, we were hosting some USAF squadrons from Korea whose crews were less media hostile.
Returning from a 4 hour, 3 air-to-air refueling visual recce sortie, we climbed aboard the step van to be greeted by a NewsWeek crew. In combat, we wore subdued rank and no name tags, so we covered their lens and refused to give our names. Behind the driver was a cooler with ice cold, wet hand towels. We each took one and wrung it out and wiped our faces and draped them around our necks. 700 miles from the equator, it's better than sex. A Kunsan crew climbed aboard, engaging the reporter in conversation. He taped names, hometowns and, until I shook my head, some mission details. I heard the whole 3 minute interview.
Three weeks later, I went to the BX and bought the magazine. The only factual data were the crew names and hometowns. It was total fiction, including a comment that the crew had just enough time before their next mission to drink a beer stored in the step van cooler. The Korean units took a lot of grief.
Posted by: arch at December 13, 2007 01:01 PM (YgJCw)
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During Tet, WaPo had an experienced reporter in Saigon named Peter Braestrup. He was a USMC Korean and Vietnam combat veteran who had also covered the French war in Algeria before being sent by the Post to Vietnam.
Like most of the press corps, he lived in the Chinese quarter - Cholon - were much of the Tet combat took place. Unlike his contemporaries, however, his experience let him recognize the massive losses the communists were taking far exceeded their gains. Braestrup also reported that most of the civilian casualties were inflicted by the VC not US or South Vietnamese. Unfortunately, his rational and experienced observations were ignored.
When the war was over, Braestrup could not understand how the media had gotten the Tet story so completely wrong. He collected every story and tape he could find and did an objective analysis. In his book, the Big Story, he lays it out. It's going to sound very familiar.
1. The US media in Vietnam press consisted of 179 people including camera men, photogs, stringers and sound crews but only about 60 journalists. Few had the military experience to assess the situation.
2. The press knew there was an offensive coming, but chose to ignore the military's warning. They were not prepared to deal with their personal safety, much less observe an urban war.
3. The press viewed the localized fighting around their hotel in Cholon as a national collapse. They reported the initial VC success, but ignored the US and ARVN counterattack under which the VC collapsed. They reported Saigon was like Dresden, when 95% of the city was undamaged.
4. They characterized the South Vietnamese forces as lazy and unreliable. That message caused their readers to question our support of the war and it also undermined their efforts in country.
5. They mischaracterized the US use of firepower as indiscriminate. Nothing could be farther from the truth. Our forces did not have the urban warfare weapons such as recoilless rifles and rocket launchers, forcing us to clear enemy troops from areas house by house. This was particularly true in Hue, the old Imperial capitol, where we lost Marines rather than calling in air or artillery.
6. They reported that sappers overran the US Embassy. Actually, 19 VC breached the perimeter wall. Their two officers were killed immediately and none survived 8 hours. The enemy never set foot inside the Embassy building.
7. The Vietnam press corps and their liberal, anti-war editors decided to interpret the news rather than reporting the facts.
Have they learned anything? I apparently not.
Posted by: arch at December 13, 2007 01:21 PM (YgJCw)
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How about a betting pool on when Elsepth Reeve files for divorce from Beauchamp. He's a scam artist and has her suckered. Eventually she'll realize this. I say by New Years Eve 2010.
Posted by: Neocon Don at December 13, 2007 03:36 PM (y8qSZ)
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How about a betting pool on when Elsepth Reeve files for divorce from Beauchamp. He's a scam artist and has her suckered. Eventually she'll realize this. I say by New Years Eve 2010.
Yeah, but I'd give them less than a year. Ellie may not know it yet, but she isn't so much Scott's wife as his beard. She enabled him to pose for awhile, but now her usefulness is pretty much over.
The one thing that could extend the timeline: Beauchamp probably will write a book recounting his "experiences." He won't want to piss her off before the book is on the remainder tables-- bad publicity would hurt sales and might even kill the book tours.
Posted by: Mike G in Corvallis at December 13, 2007 06:56 PM (qmdN5)
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Thank You for Your Prompt Press Release
Now that the more than two-years-old alleged gang-rape of Jamie Leigh Jones by Kellog Brown and Root contractors has made national headlines, presidential candidate Hillary Clinton has stepped forward to offer a statement:
Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton, D-N.Y., is calling for a formal government investigation into allegations that a young female American contractor was gang-raped in Iraq and then held incommunicado in a large shipping container by her American employer, KBR, then a subsidiary of Halliburton.
"These claims must be taken seriously and the U.S. government must act immediately to investigate Ms. Jones' claims," Sen. Clinton wrote in a letter today to Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice, Secretary of Defense Robert Gates and Attorney General Michael Mukasey.
Where was Hillary's concern for these claims seven months ago?
On May 16, 2007,
Jones stated that:
I wrote every senator in the United States to bring awareness to the fact that after approximately two years, I hadn't had one day in court or any movement with my criminal case.
The sad thing about Clinton’s statement?
She may be one of the first Senators, if not
the first, to respond to these claims.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
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Ahhh, but now Her Hillaryness is on the case, CY.
All that the benighted masses of chumps... er... voters have to do is elect her and there will never ever ever be another rape again!
--removing tongue from cheek--
Posted by: C-C-G at December 12, 2007 10:48 PM (CGiAW)
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Sadly, in this case I believe that no US court has any standing, and I am sure Iraq is not interested in doing anything. Additionally I am not sure what Congress can do in any positive way.
Posted by: David at December 13, 2007 09:47 AM (cPLO6)
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Hmmmm.
That's rather curious really. We don't seem to have much of a problem in finding jurisdiction when it's in the national interest. Consider Noriega. Head of state of a foreign power and yet he was convicted of drug charges in this country.
Posted by: memomachine at December 13, 2007 10:27 AM (3pvQO)
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The Thunder Run has linked to this post in the - Web Reconnaissance for 12/13/2007 A short recon of what’s out there that might draw your attention, updated throughout the day...so check back often.
Posted by: David M at December 13, 2007 11:02 AM (gIAM9)
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At PJM: The Jamie Leigh Jones Rape Case
I have a pair of posts up at Pajamas Media this morning regarding the alleged July, 2005 gang-rape of a young female contractor in Iraq. ABC News blog The Blotter broke the story and it seems to have triggered an investigation in the House Judiciary Committee as a result. Unfortunately, what came off the pages of The Blotter has significant discrepancies with the claims made in the legal documents.
It isn't fabulism, but it is sensationalism.
The second post at Pajamas this morning is
the chronology of Jaime Leigh Jones experiences that was once published as "Jamie's Journal" that was pulled down yesterday and delinked in the site navigation as if it ever existed.
I'd emailed Ms. Jones' attorney yesterday morning with questions, and within several hours, the page was down. Those are the facts. I'm not yet sure if there is any cause and effect involved, but I should be able to clear that up with I speak with her attorney, Todd Kelly, later today.
For those of you who might expect me to be trying to debunk the case... don't.
Though there are some inconsistencies with certain aspects of the case and the way it has been reported, absolutely nothing seems to contradict the key claim that she was savagely, brutally raped. Nothing contradicts the fact that she has not be able to find justice for 2 years.
I think she's a brave young woman, and hope that she can find both emotional and physical healing.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
07:38 AM
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For those of you who might expect me to be trying to debunk the case... don't.
Though there are some inconsistencies with certain aspects of the case and the way it has been reported, absolutely nothing seems to contradict the key claim that she was savagely, brutally raped. Nothing contradicts the fact that she has not be able to find justice for 2 years.
I think she's a brave young woman, and hope that she can find both emotional and physical healing.
Those words should have been in the original post. Not here where they are divorced from what is being read by commnters at PJM as a debunk. If they are here and not there too, they look like a CYA afterthought to a hatchet job on Jamie leigh Jones.
Posted by: Cernig at December 12, 2007 12:13 PM (1Tw+U)
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I agree. I am very suspicious of such outlandish claims, but strange things do happen and I get the feeling she is telling the truth. If so, heads need to roll over this from KBR to the state department to the security contractor on site aong with the offenders.
Posted by: Ray Robion at December 12, 2007 12:20 PM (kZ5Z5)
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Does nobody remember Tailhook. Nobody could believe that the women claiming rape would lie and they walked away with a lot of money while a group of navy pilots lives were ruined. When the truth came out(and not reported), it turned out to be a lie, but the men in the case lives was stilled ruined and the women got to keep the cash.
Posted by: shunha7878 at December 12, 2007 12:26 PM (qppR1)
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It's all about money and some slick lawyer (aka Silky hair) will end up with it.
Posted by: Scrapiron at December 12, 2007 12:29 PM (d/RyS)
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Ace and Jawa are treating this like it's another Tawana Brawley. I tend to agree. Why would her boss/attacker threaten her job? Like someone would want to work where she was just gang raped??? Yeah right.
Posted by: Capitalist Infidel at December 12, 2007 12:30 PM (Lgw9b)
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Cernig,
The PJM post clearly goes after The Blotter.
ABC interviewed Jones in September, and still didn't do the due diligence to note the serious discrepancies between the account they reported, the court filing, and the Foundation's web site that they linked to.
It was never a "hatchet job" in the least, and I don't see how it could be considered so by anyone objective.
reread the first line of the post:
Bob Owens takes a close look at the allegations of a gang rape in Iraq's Green Zone in 2005 by employees of KBR, and finds some omissions and inconsistencies in the ABC News scoop.
Not with her or her case, but with the ABC story.
further down:
In what the Associated Press described as a preview of allegations to air on "20/20" next month, ABC News may have exaggerated some elements of the story for dramatic effect while downplaying other facts.
Again, going after ABC, not Jones.
You don't have to like the fact that I've uncovered inconsistencies, but don't try to manufacture them into something they clearly aren't, and this clearly was only a criticism of ABC News.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at December 12, 2007 12:35 PM (vxbTC)
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The Leigh Jones has all the ingredients one would find in a Hollywood movie. However, although cliche, truth is stranger than fiction.
I think that CF is taking the most objective approach to this. Very few people know what happened. To simply Tawana Brawley this or blame a "slick" lawyer, is nothing more than sidestepping Ms. Jone's extremely serious allegations.
I think her recourse to a civil claim is not so much as to seek compensation, though I am sure that is one basis, it's that there does not appear to be any criminal court jurisdiction and thus almost no way of pursuing criminal charges. From a civil litigation standpoint, Ms. Jones would have a much easier time recovering a civil judgment after a criminal conviction than to simply pursue this matter in a civil court.
The fact that she has prior claims to her employer about sexual misconduct by a supervisor that did not result in his firing seems to suggest an "old boys" network. With respect to these claims, I am not sure there would have been any need for her to raise them in her complaint or amended complaint, unless that individual had been involved in alleged rape.
Posted by: Penfold at December 12, 2007 12:48 PM (lF2Kk)
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Actually, I'm just fine with you uncovering inconsistencies in reporting. Tabloid journalism like that pisses me off no matter which way it's slanted. But I still say you should have added that 'graph to your PJM post from word one.
Regards, C
Posted by: Cernig at December 12, 2007 12:51 PM (1Tw+U)
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I've submitted a comment quoting your post here to PJM. It's held for moderation.
Posted by: Cernig at December 12, 2007 12:55 PM (1Tw+U)
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But I still say you should have added that 'graph to your PJM post from word one.
We wanted to provide just the facts of this case at PJM, with no editorializing. In short, real reporting, not an op-ed, or an op-ed disguised as news.
My personal thoughts and opinions relating to what I think of this case are frankly irrelevant in a news story, and so I wrote my post to exclude them.
Nice personal attack on me at your site.
I'm impressed that you seem to have the ability to read my mind.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at December 12, 2007 01:05 PM (vxbTC)
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As I see it confederate yankee and sites like this , ( your motto " leftist is a vegatative state") I dont care you want to use that as your motto , you have the right to do it.who cares about this girl? your americans are you not?Sights like this do not like the fact that anything could be wrong with anything to do with the military or these contractors , " Nope it must be leftist pinkos " , so it must be leftist creating a story ,Do you guys have any decency. shame on the people that do that , if it hurts the right politically , shoot the messenger ,cause if Fox news didnt report it ,it must not be true . also to NOT let the light of day to find out what really happened is unamerican , , shame on everyone that wants this to go away for their own agenda, its about truth , justice the american way , . the girl says she was raped there is all sorts of corrobaration and physical evidence , Yet some would rather justice NOT be done because of Idealism. Shame on you people , so unamerican ,I think any decent american would just want to know what really happened, not go off on all this red herring fanatic stuff. and I've even read on sites like this that "OH Remember the girl and the duke college thing", that dont mean anything. but sights like this want to put doubt, they hate, its actually sad , all so this can all go away because of personal idealism , shame , shame . give the girl the right to have her day in court,thats HER right, or do you all think thses guys should not be held accountable because they work for KBR and Halburton.you all forget they are not guys with national principles who join up military guys , they are getting paid and ALOT.they are in an war environment. SOME, not all SOME of these guys come to realize they can do whatever they want .they are in a war zone in Iraq feeling they are the kings of the hill, after doing the things they do SOME feel they are owed, take without remorse or being held accountable .there are all sorts of reasons this could happen . but because you dont like it , hide it. Thats unamerican . If someone did this to your sister , or mom , or Daughter , and it really did happen ,would you not want this to come out and have justice , the stupidist thing i read was . " gee she said they would fire her if she talked and was afraid of that , she must be lying cause if it was true obviously the bad guys would of said they would shoot her if she talked, wow how moronic" you all spout victims rights all the time . yet only when its convenient , shame , so unamerican
Posted by: DA at December 12, 2007 01:51 PM (RsSg/)
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Bob,
You wrote in the PJM post:
There is also the issue of a serious discrepancy between The Blotter story, the civil case documents, and Jones’ own account on The Jamie Leigh Foundation’s web site as to what happened to the rape kit collected by U.S. Army medical personnel in the wake of her assault.
And:
There are significant variances between the versions of events—and even the mention of key events—told in The Blotter, the civil court documents of Jones et al. v. Halliburton Company et al., and the now-deleted chronological events page known as “Jamie’s Journal.”
These are both untrue, the inconsistencies your PJM post mentions are all between ABC's reporting and the other two accounts, which are consistent on the points you mention between themselves.
You wrote the graph I quoted on your own blog but didn't, for your own reasons, decide to be as forthright as to include anything even remotely like it in the PJM post.
I'm not the one lacking in integrity here.
Posted by: Cernig at December 12, 2007 01:58 PM (1Tw+U)
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Cernig, you are seeing something that just isn't there. Your interpretation of what you have quoted is widely biased. A dispassionate look makes it obvious he is noting inconsistencies not ascribing blame to a particular party. It is exactly what objective journalism should be doing and I wish the AP operated this way. BTW, I have been communicating with Bob Owens for almost two years and I would tout his integrity to anyone. You have let your emotions get away from you in the hypersensitive discussion of a woman being raped. You should apologize to Bob and come back to a reasonable line on this.
Posted by: Ray Robison at December 12, 2007 02:31 PM (kZ5Z5)
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I must be really behind the times:
Per Penfold "The fact that she has prior claims to her employer about sexual misconduct by a supervisor that did not result in his firing seems"
I didn't realize that a sacrificial man had to be fired for every woman's unproven allegation.
Posted by: RFYoung at December 12, 2007 04:47 PM (WqZCc)
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I cannot comment upon the facts in this case, because I am not privy to them. To be honest, my instincts point to believing this young woman, but I would not be surprised of any eventual outcome. I do have an issue with Halliburton, however, and wonder why that name comes up so often in hideous dealings. If nothing else, they have shown that they overcharge the government...read: taxpayers like me, by overcharging for all sorts of things, and if they have not accepted responsibility, they have paid huge fines as a result. i find it objectionable that private companies in our country are benefitting from our "excursion" in iraq. where is the oversight? and do the people involved in that company send their children to fight that war? are there any? i would be interested to know. my sense is that they are willing to sacrifice the lives of others' children so they can reap their own profit. whatever...they will all reap what they have sown. there is no immediate gratification for that, but it always seems to come back...i cannot judge, i can only observe and have an opinion.
Posted by: dmb829 at December 12, 2007 07:48 PM (KQu2H)
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DA, where are you from, Holland? I hear they have the best drugs there. I'm sorry that we whatever-bad-thing-we-are-today so-and-sos are confused by some aspects of this story.
It is a strange story. The fact that it involves Halliburton and or other contractors, the Army, and the GWOT, does not per se make such bad news suspicious. The Duke case was suspicious, and I have no feelings for Duke or lacrosse or college sports at all.
The fact that it may slant antiwar may add fuel to the fire, but from the sound of your ranting there, you seem to be the one ablaze. Perhaps if it were an American girl accusing citizens of your country of rape, or maybe members of your favorite footy club, you too would like to understand what was going on.
dmb829: do you know what the word "irrelevant" means? I'm sorry but this is pure vapor, IMHO, driven by I know not what, probably your ideology. And whenever I hear such as you whining about your tax dollars, I have to wonder: do you have a real job or do you live at home?
Posted by: nichevo at December 13, 2007 03:21 AM (Ak+g8)
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This is the first time I have heard of this story.
Holy crap, this is absolutely disgusting what happened to this young woman. There is no excuse for it whatsoever.
After all this time, nothing has happened. Time for some vigilante justice to be applied I think.
Posted by: capt joe at December 13, 2007 11:00 AM (wjbe+)
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nichevo,
I like your answer to dmb829. What kind of person doesn't believe in the goodness of taxes? Taxes are the reason we live in a society and not like animals.
Tax revenue is used to help those who don't have the capacity to help themselves. They pay for things like the National Endowment for the Arts and other cultural groups, which show we are a nation that holds culture important.
Like you, every time I hear someone whining about their tax dollars, I have to wonder if they are smart enough to know where the money comes from to support this nation and it's defense (Yes, I'm looking at you Dick Cheney--who made your money through government contracts paid through tax dollars).
capt joe,
The NRA will get right on this. Just as they did in protecting the rights of blacks to vote in the 1950s and 60s.
(LOL)
Posted by: Robert at December 13, 2007 02:40 PM (bj3d2)
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Robert, why don't you leave Dutch Boy's stash alone?
Posted by: nichevo at December 14, 2007 01:29 PM (Ak+g8)
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Per ABC story:
On one key point, Halliburton/KBR and Jones agree: the Army doctor who administered a rape evidence kit to Jamie after her alleged assault handed the kit to Halliburton/KBR security personnel. Halliburton/KBR's account did not mention the fate of the rape kit. It noted the company "did not interfere with the State Department's criminal investigation."
Posted by: TK Nagano at December 14, 2007 03:47 PM (Y5vHa)
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I believe what happened to Jamie was legit. I was a Halliburton employee for several years and a similar incident happen to a relative of mine. Nothing was done about it and Halliburton wanted to use my brother-in-law as a sacrifice in an Angolan prison for hitting a local (working for Halliburton) that tried raping my sister. No investigation was done and Halliburton only paid for my sister and kids to get out of the country. They also cut of all communications so they could not call out. Something needs to be done.
Posted by: HESTRUTH at December 14, 2007 06:50 PM (fJQJS)
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Nichevo - If you think everything's so peachy over there, why don't you send you send sister, mom, or daughter over to work for kbr in the green zone? This happened. KBR is not denying it happened. They are simply refusing to do anything about it. Why? because they don't have to. They are under absolutely no obligation to _any_ law enforcement agency on the planet. As a company, as a matter of corporate policy, they have no moral obligation except to increase their stock price. Wake up and smell the coffee you fool. Satan himself - aka dick cheney - unleashed his minions to rape iraq, both literally and metaphorically. Why don't you show us how proud you are of their behaviour and go offer to scout IEDs. Oh, and by the way, I do pay taxes and I live at home. My home. I won it. In fact, I own two homes. I work a full time job, and pay all the taxes required of me as an american citizen, including the taxes paying for contractors who have no accountability. You're a brainless twit.
Posted by: Mad Monkey at December 17, 2007 09:26 AM (lFvYB)
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Nichevo - If you think everything's so peachy over there, why don't you send you send sister, mom, or daughter over to work for kbr in the green zone? This happened. KBR is not denying it happened. They are simply refusing to do anything about it. Why? because they don't have to. They are under absolutely no obligation to _any_ law enforcement agency on the planet. As a company, as a matter of corporate policy, they have no moral obligation except to increase their stock price. Wake up and smell the coffee you fool. Satan himself - aka dick cheney - unleashed his minions to rape iraq, both literally and metaphorically. Why don't you show us how proud you are of their behaviour and go offer to scout IEDs. Oh, and by the way, I do pay taxes and I live at home. My home. I own it. In fact, I own two homes. I work a full time job, and pay all the taxes required of me as an american citizen, including the taxes paying for contractors who have no accountability. You're a brainless twit.
Posted by: Mad Monkey at December 17, 2007 09:27 AM (lFvYB)
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December 10, 2007
AP'S Conflict of Interest
There is one current story in Iraq that has attracted the full attention of the Associated Press, and that is the case of Bilal Hussein, an AP photographer and terrorism suspect. The AP report on Hussein's hearing yesterday leaves out the fact that Hussein was arrested with a known al Qaeda terrorist... one of but many troubling aspects of the news organization's decision to forego objective news reporting in favor of self-serving advocacy in a clear and pervasive conflict of interest.
The Associated Press, as an involved party in this case, should recuse themselves from reporting on Hussein's trial.
According to
The Associated Press Statement of News Values and Principles:
In the 21st century, that news is transmitted in more ways than ever before – in print, on the air and on the Web, with words, images, graphics, sounds and video. But always and in all media, we insist on the highest standards of integrity and ethical behavior when we gather and deliver the news.
That means we abhor inaccuracies, carelessness, bias or distortions. It means we will not knowingly introduce false information into material intended for publication or broadcast; nor will we alter photo or image content. Quotations must be accurate, and precise.
It means we always strive to identify all the sources of our information, shielding them with anonymity only when they insist upon it and when they provide vital information – not opinion or speculation; when there is no other way to obtain that information; and when we know the source is knowledgeable and reliable.
It means we don't plagiarize.
It means we avoid behavior or activities that create a conflict of interest and compromise our ability to report the news fairly and accurately, uninfluenced by any person or action.
It means we don't misidentify or misrepresent ourselves to get a story. When we seek an interview, we identify ourselves as AP journalists.
It means we don’t pay newsmakers for interviews, to take their photographs or to film or record them.
It means we must be fair. Whenever we portray someone in a negative light, we must make a real effort to obtain a response from that person. When mistakes are made, they must be corrected – fully, quickly and ungrudgingly.
And ultimately, it means it is the responsibility of every one of us to ensure that these standards are upheld. Any time a question is raised about any aspect of our work, it should be taken seriously.
AP editor Kim Gamel cannot claim to be avoiding bias and a conflict of interest when interviewing AP spokesman Paul Colford about the trial of AP employee Bilal Hussein.
In what alternate universe is it acceptable for a journalist to interview a senior staffer in the same news organization about a fellow employee?
Gamel cannot claim to be objective and retain the ability to "report the news fairly and accurately, uninfluenced by any person or action" when Gamel is reporting upon the Associated Press.
Whether or not Bilal Hussein is guilty of terrorism-related charges is a matter for the Iraqi criminal justice system to decide.
That the Associated Press is in violation of their own stated values and principles is readily apparent.
Just don't expect them to admit it.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
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Yeah, the solution (in this case) would be for the AP to buy reports from another news service and forward that under their by line (with no editing).... Your right, doing their own is an obvious conflict of interest (to anyone but the idiots at the AP)....
Posted by: Thomass at December 10, 2007 04:23 PM (0LFSo)
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Exactly Thomass- and bringing over stories from Al-Reuters certainly isnt going to risk any less of a slant, idealogically speaking. Might even do them a favor.
Posted by: Mark Buehner at December 10, 2007 04:55 PM (o/OBP)
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The AP can't claim to adhere to any of the bullets listed in their rules...
Posted by: Lord Nazh at December 10, 2007 05:13 PM (sBNzZ)
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Hey, AP makes those rules for the other guys, not themselves. The 'we' in their Statement of News Values and Principles is wholly imperial.
Basically, they consider themselves to reside at the peak of the pinnacle - down the sides of which they roll balls of blame intended to bash the lesser beings who reside below.
Posted by: Hank at December 10, 2007 05:27 PM (YeWPs)
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It was interesting that when Bilal Hussein was arrested, that he didn't identify himself as a journalist. One would think that an innocent objective journalist would immediately announce himself as a journalist, in order to avoid detention.
Posted by: Gringo at December 10, 2007 06:01 PM (kJgzP)
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A few years ago (after 2003), there was a killing of Iraqi election workers on Haifa Street. Belmont Club did an analysis of where the photographer was, etc., and showed that it was extremely likely that the photographer was there at that spot on Haifa Street, because he KNEW there was going to be a killing. The victims were dragged out of their car, and positioned on the road so that the photographer had a clear view of the murders.
He was a stringer for the AP. And I understand that he got a pulitzer for that wonderful up to the minute photo.
Anyway. I seem to remember that the name of the photographer was Bilal Hussein. Am I correct?
Posted by: heather at December 10, 2007 08:27 PM (u0OKV)
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identifying the board of directors of the AP is very educational.
These people are mostly owners of strings of newspapers in the Middle West and the South states of the USA.
Interesting, eh??
Posted by: heather at December 10, 2007 08:29 PM (u0OKV)
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These people are mostly owners of strings of newspapers in the Middle West and the South states of the USA.
Interesting indeed! Midwest, South and corporate conglomerates: the moonbatty Lefty trifecta!
Oh, wait...
Posted by: NovAnoM at December 10, 2007 10:17 PM (X2k64)
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Why are we surprised that a "journalist" is working for the other side? They wanted the North to win in Vietnam and made it happen. Now that UPI has folded, AP has a virtual monopoly on wire service in this country. It's too easy for lazy journalists to simply print the wire news verbatim.
Early in this war, the press was embedded with our units, a practice the left criticized as being overly pro-military. The real danger was the truth - coalition troops were (and still are) doing a wonderful job under awful conditions. The left could not allow that narrative to prevail.
Al Qaeda intimidated the press when they killed the 4 reporters in Afghanistan driving them to rely on stringers that the terrorists willingly provide. Reporters can stay drunk in the Green Zone and publish second hand accounts or just make things up or hire idiots like Beauchamp. The real issue here is not Bilal Hussein, it's ground truth vs AP and MSM propaganda.
Posted by: arch at December 11, 2007 02:56 AM (YgJCw)
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The Thunder Run has linked to this post in the - Web Reconnaissance for 12/11/2007 A short recon of what’s out there that might draw your attention, updated throughout the day...so check back often.
Posted by: David M at December 11, 2007 11:47 AM (gIAM9)
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NovAnoM, I think you missed the key part of the quote,
"strings of newspapers"
Now, given that most journalists are left leaning and democratic the obvious conclusion is indeed, the bosses of the AP are likly "moonbatty" and "lefty".
Nice try though!
Posted by: Grrrrrrrrrrrrr at December 11, 2007 03:36 PM (gkobM)
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Now, given that most journalists are left leaning and democratic
How many journalists do you reckon own "strings of newspapers?" How many journalists own even one newspaper? Not many at all, I'm guessing.
Right back atcha with the "nice try."
Posted by: NovAnoM at December 11, 2007 05:45 PM (22/Qe)
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The AP only holds to standards when there is a "controlling legal authority" (as a former vice president might say).
No "controlling legal authority," and their standards are worth less than the paper they're allegedly printed on.
Posted by: C-C-G at December 11, 2007 08:02 PM (CGiAW)
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...How many journalists do you reckon own "strings of newspapers?"...
How many owners of newspapers sit around in the green zone hiring insurgent stringers and soothing their BDS and schilling for their political party with fabricated anti war, "its a quagmire", "its civil war" reports.
Nice try, keep trying if you must
Posted by: Grrrr at December 11, 2007 09:26 PM (2wI6h)
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Grrr, I think you just bit a liberal. Go get your rabies and distemper shots quick, maybe something to prevent STD while you're at it. They aren't that crazy by choice so it must be some disease destroying their brain.
Posted by: Scrapiron at December 12, 2007 12:13 AM (AiJXe)
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Grr:
Now you're changing the topic. Heather's point--though rather elliptically stated--seems to be that the AP's board is obviously liberal because they are business owners in the Midwest and South. All three of those factors would tend, on the surface, to argue against a default liberal leaning.
They may be liberal, but not for those reasons.
Also: if that's not the point Heather is trying to make, then she should be a little more straightforward.
Posted by: NovAnoM at December 12, 2007 09:33 AM (Vm7vQ)
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They may be liberal, but not for those reasons.
Those seem to be your biases, NovAnoM. Chicago is the Midwest. Atlanta is the South. New Orleans is the South. John Edwards is from South Carolina. Bill Clinton is from Arkansas. Jimmy Carter is from Georgia. What's your point? That newspaper publishers generally aren't liberal? That Southerners can't be liberal?
Posted by: Pablo at December 12, 2007 11:05 AM (yTndK)
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Now, I wonder how that holds up to the AP Managing Editors Code of Ethics, revised 2004 from 1999?
Well, we can say that the first issue, beyond trying to hold themselves to the highest standards, etc., is this:
The public's right to know about matters of importance is paramount. The newspaper has a special responsibility as surrogate of its readers to be a vigilant watchdog of their legitimate public interests.
Apparently we now need a watchdog over AP... coming up the Responsibility section we get:
The good newspaper is fair, accurate, honest, responsible, independent and decent. Truth is its guiding principle.
It avoids practices that would conflict with the ability to report and present news in a fair, accurate and unbiased manner.
It would appear that AP has a vested interest in seeing a particular outcome in the Bilal Hussein affair and should really report on THAT, so that we, the public, can get a fair assessment of their attitudes so we can see if their reporting is unbiased or not.
Then, a bit futher down, in the Accuracy section...
The newspaper should guard against inaccuracies, carelessness, bias or distortion through emphasis, omission or technological manipulation.
It should acknowledge substantive errors and correct them promptly and prominently.
Could we get some of that from AP? Please?
How about the Integrity section?
The newspaper should strive for impartial treatment of issues and dispassionate handling of controversial subjects. It should provide a forum for the exchange of comment and criticism, especially when such comment is opposed to its editorial positions. Editorials and expressions of personal opinion by reporters and editors should be clearly labeled. Advertising should be differentiated from news.
The newspaper should report the news without regard for its own interests, mindful of the need to disclose potential conflicts. It should not give favored news treatment to advertisers or special-interest groups.
It should report matters regarding itself or its personnel with the same vigor and candor as it would other institutions or individuals. Concern for community, business or personal interests should not cause the newspaper to distort or misrepresent the facts.
Is AP doing that for us? Giving us the canodor about themselves so that we can see how accurate and fair their reporting is on this? I'm starting to get the idea that they don't even read their own guidelines...
Then their Independence section, which covers more in the line of taking gifts, etc., but does yield this as its first part:
The newspaper and its staff should be free of obligations to news sources and newsmakers. Even the appearance of obligation or conflict of interest should be avoided.
And finally:
Stories should not be written or edited primarily for the purpose of winning awards and prizes. Self-serving journalism contests and awards that reflect unfavorably on the newspaper or the profession should be avoided.
Those sorts of things don't need to be 'updated' too often and don't change much via a change in media type. Good, solid reporting is up front when there can be bias present, explains itself when reporting may be tainted by institutional or personal views, and is up-front about such things, not burying them where they can't be found. Their 1999/2004 version does carry standard 'public advocate' phrases, also, but that pertains to openness in government and reporting on same and the editorial side when it takes issues of public concern... those do not de-obligate AP from being up front in its biases, viewpoints and how they ensure that the public gets reliable reporting.
Those are what ethics are about, and when an organization publishes them, they are expected to adhere to them or explain why they have deviated from them. The public, as they point out, has the right to know this so that we can judge AP on its reporting fairly, and ensure that they hold themselves to their standards of eliminating bias and being up front about it. They state as much, the AP Managing Editors do... unless they have changed their view to remove their ethics.
Posted by: ajackskonian at December 12, 2007 11:49 AM (oy1lQ)
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What's your point? That newspaper publishers generally aren't liberal? That Southerners can't be liberal?
My point is that someone is not liberal because they own a newspaper. That's what Heather's suggesting.
What's your point? That the midwest and the south are suddenly Blue zones? Interesting.
Posted by: novanom at December 12, 2007 04:02 PM (22/Qe)
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My point is that someone is not liberal because they own a newspaper.
It's probably a better generalization than locality.
That the midwest and the south are suddenly Blue zones?
No, they're mostly purple as is most of America. Many of the margins that make places blue or red are not terribly large.
Posted by: Pablo at December 13, 2007 09:20 AM (yTndK)
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December 07, 2007
Smith Resigns...
...as a freelancer at NRO:
Dear Readers,
After much reflection and consideration, I am withdrawing from my professional relationship as a regular freelancer with National Review Online.
This is my own decision. No one at NRO has asked me to do this, nor has anyone suggested or even hinted I should. But I believe this to be in the best interest of the publication which I have so much respect for.
Both NRO and I have taken far too much heat for something which would never have happened had I been more specific in terms of detailing my sourcing while blogging about Lebanon at "The Tank". That is a responsibility I have to accept.
It was an honor to write for NRO. NRO has stood by me and supported me throughout all of this, and for that — and for so many other things over the years — I will always be grateful. And I will always cherish my relationship with NRO.
As I said in an interview the other day, I'm not sure what the future holds for me in this. But what I do know is that I will continue to march forward into it.
All the best,
W. Thomas Smith Jr.
Franklin Foer, you are on the clock.
Update: Katharyn Jean Lopez provides a
full accounting of what went wrong with Smith's reporting from Lebanon at
NRO blog "The Tank."
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
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End of controversy at NRO in about one or two weeks...continuing at TNR after 4 + Months.
Posted by: Mark at December 07, 2007 10:50 AM (4od5C)
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Smith has done the honorable thing and he should receive his due credit for it.
Franklin Foer....is there any honor in you? We're waiting....
Posted by: T.Ferg at December 07, 2007 11:32 AM (2YVh7)
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NRO, Lopez and Smith school TNR, Foer and Beauchamp in How To Respond Professionally When Things Go Sideways.
Anyone here think Frankie is listening?
Posted by: Justacanuck at December 07, 2007 03:17 PM (hgxwr)
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How quickly do ya think the lefties will demand K-Lo's head?
Posted by: C-C-G at December 07, 2007 08:03 PM (SoUge)
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And just yesterday Larry Kudlow wrote:
Americans are working. The 4.7 percent unemployment number remains at an historical low.
The actual figures are available from the Bureau of Labor Statistics. The unemployment rate was at 4% in 2000. It was below 4% several times. It was even below 3% in 1953.
It isn't difficult to find examples of the National Review putting out information about the US economy that is directly contradicted by easy-to-find primary sources. But are there corrections, retractions, or mea culpas?
Is the US economy so much less important to us than how many Hezbullah fighters are sitting in tents in Lebanon? Is being misinformed about the economy so much more trivial than being misinformed about Hezbullah posturing in Lebanon?
Posted by: cactus at December 08, 2007 08:19 AM (SV0Gb)
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There is no question that 4.7% is historically low. Why are you lying? Of course there were a few times it was lower but look at how many times it was higher. It's impossible to argue that it's not historically low.
Were you born this stupid?
Posted by: Capitalist Infidel at December 08, 2007 02:37 PM (Lgw9b)
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What's sad is this idiot cactus doesn't even know why the unemployment rate was under 3% in 1953. I wonder if he's ever heard of the Korean war? I bet he'd really be confused about why the unemployment rate was under 2% in 1944? Could it be because of WWII? My guess is cactus will try to bring up the fact we're in a war now and I'd have to explain the effect a draft has on employment. Since he's obviously intellectually vacant I'm afraid he has no clue about what I'm saying. He'll be happy to just follow his fellow far left wing fanatical sheeple.
Posted by: Capitalist Infidel at December 08, 2007 02:55 PM (Lgw9b)
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cactus, what percentage of women were included in the unemployment figure in 1953 or 1944? A far lower percentage of Americans were working then than now.
The telling difference between NRO and TNR is that NRO isn't going through such machinations to prove Smith's factual errors to be the truth. Admit, correct, apologize and move on. Or, push the button, Frank.
Posted by: Pablo at December 09, 2007 09:22 AM (yTndK)
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Pablo,
The unemployment rate doesn't include people not considered to be looking for a job. If you feel that a housewife in 1944 should have been considered part of the labor force and the unemployment rate should have been much higher as a result, and that by failing to provide an estimate of what the unemployment rate should have been by your standards, then yes, I am guilty of a machination.
Capitalist Infidel,
Wow. Not the reaction I expected, but it explains a lot. Forgive my ignorance, and perhaps you folks would indulge me one more time...
I count 17 occasions in the BLS table I cited in which annual unemployment was below 4.7%. Since the table runs between 1947 and 2006, that means the unemployment rate was below what Kudlow calls "an historical low" 28.3% of the time.
If that qualifies as a historical low, what doesn't? If 33% of previous events were lower, are you still at a historical low? What about 50%? 85% too? I'm just trying to understand the ground rules here.
And maybe y'all can help me with another definition I saw in another recent Kudlow piece:
"Real gross domestic product, the best summary report of the American economy, came in at a breathtaking 3.9 percent annual rate for the third quarter."
The BEA, the folks who bring you real gross domestic product, also provide this handy table showing the percentage change in real gross domestic product. It turns out Kudlow was wrong... it actually grew (until they revise the figures) at 4.9%. So that's probably a typo. But let's look at that 4.9% a year figure (presumably more breathtaking than 3.9%)
Now, looking at the annual column, it seems that the data goes back to 1930, and on 23 occasions, or about 30% of the time, real GDP came in faster than the breathtaking 4.9 percent annual rate. Quarterly data goes back to Q2 of 1947, and it seems that 29% of all quarters exhibit annual growth rates in excess of 4.9% a year.
Does this qualify as "an historical high" for real economic growth? And is "breathtaking" similar to "an historical" rate? Which is better?
Which leads to one more comparison.... this table has real median income from 1974 to 2005. We can see from the table that in only 35.5% did we observe growth rates of real median income of less than 0.22%... and we observed that in all but one of the years of GW's term so far. (And all but one of the years of GHW's term. And in two years of Carter's.) If we look at negative growth rates only, that's still 32.3% of the sample - and three years of GW's term.
Does that mean we can say that real median income growth rates during most of GW's term have been at historical lows? How about breathtaking lows? Or is 35.5% far enough away from 28.3% and 30%?
Posted by: cactus at December 09, 2007 10:47 PM (SV0Gb)
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The unemployment rate doesn't include people not considered to be looking for a job. If you feel that a housewife in 1944 should have been considered part of the labor force and the unemployment rate should have been much higher as a result, and that by failing to provide an estimate of what the unemployment rate should have been by your standards, then yes, I am guilty of a machination.
I guess Cactus has never heard of Rosie the Riveter. (Yes, it's Wikipedia. The complaint line starts over there.)
So, I imagine that Cactus is guilty, as he says, of a machination. Thanks for admitting it.
Posted by: C-C-G at December 10, 2007 12:19 AM (CGiAW)
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C-C-G,
In 1944 or 2007, a woman looking for work is part of the labor force and unemployed. In 1944 or 2007, a woman with a job is considered part of the labor force, but not unemployed. And in 1944 or 2007, a woman without a job but not looking for one is not part of the labor force and not considered employed or unemployed.
(Check the BLS glossary for such terms as labor force, unemployment, and employed persons.)
If you can explain how the Rosie the Riveter phenomenon would have resulted lower unemployment rates in 1953 than today, please do. Because clearly I'm missing something.
Posted by: cactus at December 10, 2007 08:06 AM (SV0Gb)
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Every year from 1970 to 1997 unemployment was over the current 4.7%. An idiot like Cactus has no idea what the draft does for employment.
Posted by: Capitalist Infidel at December 10, 2007 09:25 AM (Lgw9b)
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I just lurve how Cactus changes the dates from 1944 to 1953 without blinking.
Ladies and gentleman, a lefty "economist" on display, complete with goalposts on wheels.
Posted by: C-C-G at December 10, 2007 09:31 AM (CGiAW)
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Capitalist Infidel,
You are correct. Since the unemployment rate deals only with the civilian non-institutional population (i.e., not military or incarcerated), an idiot like me really doesn't know what the draft does to the unemployment rate. I imagine it might actually push the unemployment rate up... people transitioning out of the military and into the civilian workforce, especially if they're kind of shell-shocked, might have trouble doing it.
C-C-G,
"I just lurve how Cactus changes the dates from 1944 to 1953 without blinking."
I was just responding to Capitalist Infidel's December 8, 2007 02:55 PM comment. Since he brought up 1944 and 1953, please explain how I could have addressed his point without mentioning those dates.
Posted by: cactus at December 10, 2007 10:33 AM (SV0Gb)
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F- on the spin, Cactus. Your post of 10 Dec, 8:06 AM--the one I was replying to regarding the dates--was addressed to me, and only me... no mention of Capitalist Infidel at all. Other posts of yours clearly indicate that you are quite capable of and willing to address different commenters in the same post, but that you invariably do so specifically, by name. And now you seem to want to claim that you broke that pattern only when it will get you out of a hole? Puh-leeze.
And my post was referring only to Rosie the Riveter, who was a WWII figure, not a Korean War figure.
Posted by: C-C-G at December 10, 2007 08:45 PM (CGiAW)
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C-C-G,
Fine, if it bothers you, then yes, I changed the dates from 1944 to 1953 without blinking, whatever that means.
Since you didn't discuss the effect Rosie the Riveter had on unemployment in WW2, let me do it for you. A bunch of jobs opened up. Many of the men who previously filled them were out fighting WW2. Thus, the number of people in the labor force dropped relative to the number of jobs they held... reducing the unemployment rate. Women saw all these open jobs and an opportunity they hadn't had before, and started applying. That pushed up the size of the labor force. Because not all of them got jobs, many were now considered part of the labor force, considered to be looking for jobs, and and jobless... which made them unemployed. In 1944, the unemployment rate was 1.2%. If more than 12 women out of every 1,000 that entered the workforce in any given month didn't find jobs that month, the unemployment rate rose. There's more friction in the job market than that, even during a war.
But all that still leaves a key point in the air. Kudlow specifically calls it "an historical low" despite the fact that 28% of the sample consists of years in which the unemployment rate was below "an historical low". Even changing it to "historically low" might be a bit of a stretch. I also point out another instance of uncalled-for hyperbole - the use of the word "breathtaking" to describe a situation no less uncommon than his "historical low."
(Its not difficult to point out Kudlow hyperbole, or another favorite of his - switching between nominal, real, and percentage of GDP figures - to imply something about the economy that isn't the case.)
The reaction here has been to attack me for pointing it out. Comments have ranged from changing Kudlow's choice of words from "an historical low" to "historically low" and accusing me of lying, insisting that somehow the draft during the Korean War had something to do with it, asking me about the percentage of women in the workforce (which misses the point of how the unemployment figure is computed), and your contribution.
From all of this, I guess I got my answer... some of you folks seem to derive a lot of value from the NRO providing misinformation about the economy, enough to defend it come what may.
Posted by: cactus at December 11, 2007 08:05 AM (SV0Gb)
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Actually, I have not yet defended NRO's economics coverage. I will leave that to those trained in economics, which I am not.
I was merely commenting on your verbal (typed?) slight-of-hand.
You really should put away the broad brush and try one a little more exact.
Posted by: C-C-G at December 11, 2007 08:04 PM (CGiAW)
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--grabbing the wheel and steering this thread back to topic--
Two experts on Lebanon, one employed by the UN, have written an article defending Smith's statements.
Please note, for the record, I suggest that the above article be taken with as many grains of salt as necessary. I merely add it to the discussion (a) to bring it back to topic and (b) to provide everyone with the chance to read it and decide for themselves.
I do not, I say again and strongly emphasize, I DO NOT NECESSARILY AGREE WITH ALL POINTS IN THE ABOVE ARTICLE.
Posted by: C-C-G at December 11, 2007 10:56 PM (CGiAW)
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When Dinosaurs Attack
Dan Riehl points to this gem from a Huffington Post interview with Helen Thomas:
HP:Do you think technology is changing [journalism]? That a good reporter will always find a venue because there are so many media outlets now?
Thomas: No, but I do think it is kind of sad when everybody who owns a laptop thinks they're a journalist and doesn't understand the ethics. We do have to have some sense of what's right and wrong in this job. Of how far we can go. We don't make accusations without absolute proof. We're not prosecutors. We don't assume.
HP: So if there's this amateur league of journalists out there, trying to do what you do...
Thomas: It's dangerous.
To a certain extent, I agree with Thomas that blogging is dangerous... for journalists. The gatekeeper isn't dead, but he is ailing.
Blogging software now makes it easy for subject matter experts and enthusiasts to provide the insights and critical review that most journalists simply don't have the background to report thoroughly, or accurately.
I'd hasten to add that this isn't always the fault of journalists. Many if not most journalists are generalists, who may be assigned to whatever the "hot" story of the day may be, across a wide range of topics. We've less tolerance for the siloed journalists who cover a specific beat and refuse to become subject matter experts in the area that they are assigned.
But no matter where journalists come from, must are always still primarily
journalists, with a communications/journalism background, and they simply cannot compile the depth or breadth of knowledge that someone who has the academic and practical professional experience that many bloggers have developed.
It is for these reasons that science blogs, milblogs, tech blogs and law blogs almost always have better commentary than the journalists merely assigned to cover the same areas, even though these bloggers will rarely break as many new news stories. Where bloggers typically excel is with providing content and corrections to news stories that journalist simply don't have the expertise to give.
Now, it is a fair criticism that with tens of millions of blogs that many, if not most of them, are junk. It is a fair assessment that most blogs merely exist to echo opinions, but provide very little in the way of news in their content. But it is equally true that in blogging the cream rises to the top. What we increasing find in journalism, however, is that what floats to the top assuredly
isn't cream.
Bloggers have removed the mystique of the profession of journalism. It isn't rocket science.
It never was.
Though taught on the undergraduate and graduate level, some of the best journalists lack a college degree. Good reporting is craft or a trade reliant on a thirst for knowledge, dilligence, insight, ethics, and an ability to communicate—personality traits that no journalism school in the country can provide. The best a journalism program can do is polish the skills and technique of someone who already has these traits, but specific pedigrees are irrelevant when it comes the long-term quality of the work. A degree from Columbia may get your foot in the newsroom, but it won't keep you there. The quality of your work determines your future... or should.
I can think of a half dozen bloggers covering politics that have done more original reporting than Helen Thomas over the past few years and certainly deserve a seat in the White House Press Corps more than Thomas, who only seem to exist now as an irritant for the White House Press office, and as an amusement for her peers.
In the end perhaps it is her own current irrelevance that makes Thomas regard bloggers as dangerous, as a new breed of information providers devours the old.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
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Ah yes, Jurassic Helen roars and all cower before her. Of course, most are trying not to ROTFLOL so it's understood why we are grabbing our sides in vain attempts of controlling our hilarity.
Posted by: Mark at December 07, 2007 11:39 AM (4od5C)
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Of course blogging is dangerous. It threatens not just mainstream journalism but the entire established order, just as the pamphleteers of 250 years ago threatened the British order. Thus, it shouldn't come as a surprise that what we see as a feature our Dear Helen sees as a bug.
Posted by: Swen Swenson at December 07, 2007 02:33 PM (xQ1mW)
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Yes, blogging is dangerous because now you have every idiot with a Masters in Arts in English thinking they are some sort of military and foreign policy and mall-survivalist expert.
Posted by: yeah right at December 07, 2007 05:22 PM (MyDKI)
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When I studied Journalism in the 70s, I was fond of that quotation by A.J. Liebling, "Freedom of the press belongs to those who own one." Nowadays, pretty much everyone does.
Posted by: mark at December 07, 2007 05:56 PM (5aV6B)
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Give me someone who has lived life and writes about his or her experience and expertise over some coddled degree-ridden journalism grad any day. The writing may not be professional or polished, but I'd trust the content on their subject of expertise over some bubble-protected journalist every time.
And bloggers don't usually have a job they need to protect or preserve and are much more free to give voice to controversy or controversial facts. I worked for newspapers for over 20 years and I know how rule-based they can be. They don't really encourage original thinkers off the editorial pages and as we see today with NBC and have seen many times at the NYT or at certain magazines, not towing the party line can cost you your livelihood.
Posted by: Sara at December 07, 2007 06:07 PM (QWlxD)
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Yes, blogging is dangerous because now you have every idiot with a Masters in Arts in English thinking they are some sort of military and foreign policy and mall-survivalist expert.
Been reading Daily Kos again?
Posted by: C-C-G at December 07, 2007 08:06 PM (SoUge)
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The gatekeeper and the gate are still there!!
The fence, however, is missing...
Posted by: ajacksonian at December 07, 2007 09:14 PM (oy1lQ)
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Just think about how ridiculous it is that a twenty-something with a newly-minted journalism degree believes that it is his (or her) solemn obligation to mold my opinion on important issues by selective reporting and massaging of the facts. What ARROGANCE! I've lived for half a century, have a postgraduate degree, traveled all over the world and read hundreds of books on history and culture, and I'm supposed to be "taught" by someone whose only visible qualifications are a degree in journalism and a poufy hairdo?
Back when they had a monopoly on information, the audience had to accept what they dished out. But today, the internet in general and the blogs in particular have exposed these people for the biased mediocrities that they are, from CBS, ABC, PBS, to NYT, and the LA Times. The funny thing is how oblivious they are to the fact that the game has changed. They just continue doing what they've always done, a little puzzled and irritated about this whole internet thing. Just like the dinosuars as the comet hit.
Posted by: Cicero at December 07, 2007 10:22 PM (K69N2)
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Indeed, Cicero.
The attitude of the lefties seems to be, "who told the peons they could have opinions other than the ones we give them?"
Posted by: C-C-G at December 07, 2007 10:36 PM (SoUge)
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Thomas: No, but I do think it is kind of sad when everybody who owns a laptop thinks they're a journalist and doesn't understand the ethics. We do have to have some sense of what's right and wrong in this job. Of how far we can go. We don't make accusations without absolute proof. We're not prosecutors. We don't assume.
Like your good buddy, Dan Rather? Or most of the reporters who wrote on the Duke lacross team? Or report from the "Green Zone" about events in other cities? (Do I really need to go on?)
Posted by: MikeM at December 07, 2007 11:15 PM (nyO8l)
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There's another Helen Thomas masterpiece at Dan Riehl's site today. I left a comment there. Let me just say that Ms. Thomas is a stunning example why the mass media is in the shape it is in: she is narcissitic, arrogant, and utterly incurious. 'Drama Queen' does not begin to describe her. She already knows all of the answers so the questions are pro forma. Those who do not believe exactly as she does are beneath contempt. She will report precisely what she wants others to have said; not what they have said.
Why any White House press secretary wastes his or her time trying to answer her questions/speeches is a mystery
Posted by: Mikey NTH at December 08, 2007 05:36 PM (xzmT0)
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Darn right blogging dangerous -- two words: carpal tunnel.
Posted by: Purple Avenger at December 08, 2007 08:43 PM (wWoFq)
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Does Helen actually do any reporting these days? How many other columnists/pundits are there in the WH Press Corps?
Posted by: Pablo at December 09, 2007 09:52 AM (yTndK)
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I have long been a critic of the main stream media, perhaps cynically so. In their text book, Kovach & Rosensteil lay out the ethics and standards of journalism. They are fairly straight forward.
Nine Elements of Journalism (by Bill Kovach and Tom Rosensteil)
1. Truth
2. Loyalty to Citizens
3. Verification
4. Independence from Subjects
5. Independent monitor of Power
6. Forum for Criticism & Compromise
7. Make the significant interesting, and relevant
8. Comprehensive & proportional
9. Freedom of personal conscience
Standards
Cite original sources
Attribute source material
Use multiple sources
Check Every Fact
Report every perspective
Be Unbiased
Balance objectivity and skepticism
Take care organizing and reporting information
Avoid confidential sources
Decline gifts and favors
Recuse if biased
How would you rate their performance?
Arch
Posted by: arch at December 09, 2007 02:50 PM (YgJCw)
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Thomas and her MSM buddies have a lot of nerve lecturing us about ethics and not being prosecutors... about not assuming. What a joke she has become.
Jim C
Posted by: Jim C at December 09, 2007 09:36 PM (ON55K)
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Democrats Determined to Miss the Good News from Iraq
My newest post is up at Pajamas Media.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
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Excellent post on Pajamas Media, CY.
You've much improved your grammar and punctuation. I only noticed a couple 'rough' spots, but not enough to make the reading difficult.
Posted by: Mark at December 07, 2007 11:49 AM (4od5C)
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December 06, 2007
Surviving the Mall
You should never have to shop in fear, but yesterday's senseless murders at an Omaha, Nebraska mall remind us that violence can happen almost anywhere. Because it can, it isn't a bad idea to have an exit strategy in the back of your mind.
In the very unlikely event that you find yourself in a situation like that in Nebraska yesterday or previous shootings this year in malls in Salt Lake City, Kansas City, and Douglasville, Georgia, there are simple actions you can take to increase your changes of getting out unharmed.
Get in.
The long, wide corridors and hallways lined with stores in a mall provide us with easy access from one store to another. In situations where a shooter is on the loose, they are also going to be the first route of escape for shoppers. The panicked rush of people attempting to use these corridors to escape increases the risk of being trampled in a mob. It goes without saying that these long open hallways provide next to no cover from any bullets fired.
If you happen to be walking in the mall and a shooting occurs, get into the nearest store or side hallway.
Get low.
Firearms, be they handguns, rifles, or shotguns, are typically fired from the shoulder. Most bullets or pellets travel roughly on a horizontal plane from shoulder to waist high. By going prone, you decrease your chances of getting hit. Once down,
stay down. Bullets have no problem penetrating multiple layers of building materials. Just because you do not see the shooter does not mean you are out of danger.
Get out.
Stores do not bring their merchandise in through the front door. Almost all have loading docks, and to comply with fire codes, an emergency exit that leads either to a back hallway, or provide directs access to the outside of the building. Look up for the "exit" sign on the ceiling at the back of the store, and make your way there as fast as possible, keeping as low as possible.
Keep moving.
Once you make it outside, keep moving. Put as much physical space and as many physical objects between you and the scene as possible.
Putting it all together.
- Get in.
- Get low.
- Get out.
- Keep moving.
File that bit of information in the back of your mind. I'll pray you never have occasion to use it.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
11:25 AM
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1
Those are all excellent pieces of advice Bob and would serve folks quite well.
Me personally, I'm gonna shoot the bastard, but that's 'cuz I have a gun and minimal sense.
Cordially,
Uncle J
Posted by: Uncle Jimbo at December 06, 2007 05:50 PM (o6gWZ)
2
I'm with Uncle Jimbo...but it seems the damn Mall was a Gun Free Zone (worked real well, didn't it?)
Like the Lubby's shootings here that made for the change in carry laws, any law abiding carry permit holder was to leave their weapon behind to join the herd.
Posted by: JP at December 06, 2007 06:13 PM (VxiFL)
3
Most criminal types see "Gun Free Zone" as "No One Can Shoot Back Zone."
Posted by: C-C-G at December 06, 2007 07:52 PM (SoUge)
4
Thanks for these terrific suggestions which I am forwarding on to family and friends.
Posted by: Webutante at December 06, 2007 07:58 PM (d/RyS)
5
Yep. Derndest things happen in those gun free zones. I try to stay out of 'em. Strange doings afoot. I'm with Jimbo.
Posted by: HerrMorgenholz at December 06, 2007 08:10 PM (W9S9M)
6
I just did some research and discovered my home state is pretty easy to get a concealed carry permit in, all you really need is to have completed a gun safety course.
Now, where's the nearest NRA office?
Posted by: C-C-G at December 06, 2007 08:25 PM (SoUge)
7
May I copy this and pass it along in an email to family and friends? I'll be sure to include the link.
Posted by: Mom at December 07, 2007 08:46 AM (XferP)
8
Hmmm.
I'm with Instapundit. He's advocating that the survivors and the victim's families sue the hell out of the mall owners. This is because they prevented people from legally carrying firearms in the mall, which may have allowed someone to shoot the little bastard before the death count went up, and protecting themselves.
If you're a corporation and you disarm me, then it's *your* responsibility to protect me and it's your liability if you don't.
Now that I like!
Posted by: memomachine at December 07, 2007 10:29 AM (3pvQO)
9
You Dirty Harry/Rambo wannabes make me laugh.
Having a gun wouldn't have made a dime's worth of difference in this situation, since many of the dead/wounded were either ambushed as the shooter stepped out of the elevator or shot sniper-style as the shooter shot down through an atrium at people on a lower floor.
And CY, the media is reporting the shooter had an AK-47. Care to change your earlier thread about it being an SKS rifle?
Are you going to argue that the AK-47 isn't an "assault" weapon?
Posted by: yeah right at December 07, 2007 05:16 PM (MyDKI)
10
yeah right,
The media can call this an AK-47 all they want to, but there is a huge difference between a real AK-47 and an AK-47 pattern rifle, which is what this was. There is ZERO indication this was an AK-47, AKM, or other fully-autmoatic variant, which, by definition, it must be to be a real assault rifle.
Odds are (statistically-speaking) it was a WASR-10 or a MAK-90, not that you know what those are.
Also learn to read. I never said it was an SKS, I said the original media claim said it was an SKS, which I disputed because SKS rifles typically have a fixed mag, and even in the early reports they were talking about multiple magazines. Once again, I was right.
R.I.F., sparky.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at December 07, 2007 05:36 PM (vxbTC)
11
1- If one of us armed civilians had been nearby, the whole issue could've been resolved- as it was the last time a shooter tried to do a mass murder in a mall. "Yeah right" could've done NOTHING- except try to shift blame and fail to take responsibility.
2- The media reports lots of things. Reporters are fairly ignorant about firearms and firearm-related issues, which does not stop them from acting like they're experts.
3- A civilian-legal AK is NOT an 'assault weapon', despite what teh aforementioned firearms-ignorant bunch wants to think. An assault weapon is select-fire, lwhich means that it can fire at full-automatic. There is no evidence that the shooter in this case did anything but semi-auto. Calling a chair a table doesn't make it any less a chair.
4- You Sarah Brady wannabees make ME laugh- always with the same script, same ignorance about any of the issues involved, same desire to substitute sneer for truth and lies for reality.
Posted by: DaveP. at December 07, 2007 05:38 PM (VUpJX)
12
What if you tried to stop a mass murderer by shooting him, and in the chaos, another gun owner saw you shooting? He might think YOU'RE the madman (how would he know?), and he'd then shoot you...
Just a thought.
Posted by: Anonymous reader at December 07, 2007 05:52 PM (RkwYf)
13
What if you tried to stop a mass murderer by shooting him, and in the chaos, another gun owner saw you shooting?
You are far more likely to be shot by a police officer than concealed carry holder. There has been only once instance that I am aware of where two both CCW-permit holders drew firearms when a bad guy was on the loose, and they worked together to subdue the suspect and held him till uniformed officers arrive.
I think this falls into the realm of how collected the CCW-holders are. I think many, if not most are shooting enthusiasts, and could tell "friend from foe" based upon a number of variables, ranging from physical characteristics, mannerisms, and posture, to the difference different weapons make.
In this instance, I think if two CCW holders had been in the store where most of the victims were found and one saw the other firing at the suspect, he would immediately know the difference in sound between a rifle and a fellow handgun shooter, and he would not likely fire at the other CCW holder.
Not scientific by any stretch, of course, but I'd be interested to hear what CCW holders have to say.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at December 07, 2007 07:07 PM (HcgFD)
14
So what you're saying is that I should run when someone shoots at me? Wow, that's some valuable advice. Thanks a lot.
Posted by: Erik at December 07, 2007 10:14 PM (rljT9)
15
So what you're saying is that I should run when someone shoots at me?
Well, you could always just stand there and lecture the shooter about "gun free zones" in malls and such... if you talk fast you might even get a complete sentence out before he blows your head off.
Posted by: C-C-G at December 07, 2007 10:42 PM (SoUge)
16
So what you're saying is that I should run when someone shoots at me? Wow, that's some valuable advice. Thanks a lot.
See Erik? That's the beauty of free will. I can give you good advice about how to get out of the line of fire and out of the mall through less-used exits that you probably would have never thought of on your own, but you're free to distill that advice down into absurd, meaningless elements that you will then ignore.
By all means, do it your way.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at December 08, 2007 09:23 AM (HcgFD)
17
I think this falls into the realm of how collected the CCW-holders are. I think many, if not most are shooting enthusiasts, and could tell "friend from foe" based upon a number of variables, ranging from physical characteristics, mannerisms, and posture, to the difference different weapons make.
So you are saying that CCW permit holders profile each other. Suppose the other CCW permit holder is, gasp!, a dirty, presumably-jihad loving Ay-rab? Should I shoot the guy who is shooting or should I shoot the guy who is obviously about to succumb to Sudden Jihad Syndrome? And suppose the CCW permit holding guy who merely LOOKS like he will succumb to Sudden Jihad Syndrome is actually a patriotic, upstanding American? Who do I shoot?
Oh choices, choices...
Posted by: calipygian at December 08, 2007 12:00 PM (nlaMl)
18
Suppose the other CCW holder is a really a Plutonian, come to take revenge for our demoting of Pluto from planet status!
Or, better yet, suppose that he's a straw man!
Posted by: C-C-G at December 08, 2007 12:52 PM (SoUge)
19
Or better yet, since crazy white boys with guns and explosives have killed way more people in the US than crazy Arab boys with planes, how about we round up all the white boys, send them to Gitmo and water board them all until they tell us where they keep their AK-47 knock-offs and promise not to be crazy anymore?
Posted by: calipygian at December 08, 2007 12:59 PM (nlaMl)
20
You must think this is a straw man contest, sir.
If and when you post something reasonable, I will probably--no guarantees--reply reasonably. As long as you keep posting absurdities, however, I'll just get more and more absurd myself.
Your move.
Posted by: C-C-G at December 08, 2007 01:29 PM (SoUge)
21
Why is it absurd? Is it or is it not true that crazy white boys with guns and explosives has killed more Americans than crazy Arabs with planes? Is it true or is it not true that you are much more likely to be killed doing something mundane, like driving down the street to work or of a heart attack while eating a hot fudge sundae than by a crazy white boy in a shopping mall or a in a terrorist attack? If it is true that crazy white boys have killed more (and it certainly is true), why aren't we cracking down on them even more strenuously than crazy Arabs?
Who is being absurd? Not me.
Posted by: calipygian at December 08, 2007 01:37 PM (nlaMl)
22
It's absurd because you're conflating those killings that were done in defense of others--like protecting the world from having to declare "sieg heil" to a flag with a swastika--with those done in naked aggression, like those committed by the people who did proclaim "sieg heil."
Therein lies the absurdity, and you're either too stupid to see it yourself, or you think I am.
Posted by: C-C-G at December 08, 2007 01:42 PM (SoUge)
23
Wait. The crazy white boy who shot up a mall in Omaha was defending the world from Nazis? Timothy McVey was defending the world from Nazis when he blew up the Federal Courthouse in OK City?
Now I understand.
And since when has the phrase "Seig Heil" replaced the phrase "Allah Huwa Akbar?"
Posted by: calipygian at December 08, 2007 02:20 PM (nlaMl)
24
See, there ya go, conflating issues again, in order to build your straw man.
By the way, why limit the Arab death toll to just those who flew planes into buildings? Why not add in all the deaths caused by Arabs? It's obvious, because that would cause your straw man to fall apart.
As a straw-man builder, I give you a B+. As a debater, an F-.
Posted by: C-C-G at December 08, 2007 02:57 PM (SoUge)
25
To calipygian,blacks with illegal weapons kill far more people than "crazy white boys",and to yea right's comments, an AK-47 and SKS fire the same round 7.62x39,and an assault weapon is any weapon one chooses to assault another with,be it a sharp stick or a butter knife up the nose,the term assault weapon is a scary word used by the media to further thier anti-gun agenda.
Posted by: spylock at December 10, 2007 08:00 AM (7h9VZ)
26
1- If one of us armed civilians had been nearby, the whole issue could've been resolved
One of you armed civilians was there; he killed nine people.
Posted by: Bob Munck at December 10, 2007 11:54 PM (n0BzT)
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December 05, 2007
Nine Dead in Nebraska Mall Shooting
May God be with the families of the killed and wounded.
There really isn't a whole lot more to be said at this point, but I'd like to offer some clarification of media statements if that will help people process the story.
ABC News cites police as saying an SKS rifle was used in the shooting. The SKS is not an assault rifle, despite it being called that erroneously by some news outlets.
One account attributed to ABC News claims that the shooter used a weapon with two magazines. This would throw the initial identification of the weapon as an SKS into doubt, as the overwhelming majority of SKS rifles use 10-round magazines permanently affixed to the weapon, though some variants do have the capability to use detachable magazines. If the rifle did use detachable magazines, the likelihood is greater that it was an AK-pattern rifle.
Both firearms are chambered for the 7.62x39 cartridge, typically firing an intermediate-power 123-grain .30-caliber bullet.
I'd caution readers not to make too much of
accounts of a grenade being recovered from the parking lot of the same mall last week. The pineapple-style grenade casing was phased out decades ago, and the item recovered is
more than likely just a novelty.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
11:42 PM
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1
Lefty calls for more restrictions on gun ownership in 5... 4... 3...
Posted by: C-C-G at December 05, 2007 11:56 PM (SoUge)
2
The real question is, out of the hundreds of people in the mall- why did nobody return fire? Whether or not the lunatic legally owned or had the right to own the gun is irrelevant, criminals will get guns regardless of the law, it's the unarmed mass of consumers in the mall that really allowed this tragedy.
Posted by: BKT at December 06, 2007 09:02 AM (IoLTd)
3
BKT- I'm told the mall was a "Gun-Free Zone".
Posted by: DaveP. at December 06, 2007 09:30 AM (VUpJX)
4
Maybe we should start referring to "gun free zones" as "free fire zones". On Fox one of the news readers noted that by the time the police got there the shooting was over.
Posted by: MarathonMan at December 06, 2007 12:15 PM (c30Zi)
5
No weapons and gun free zones are private designations, corporations and businesses do this so their employees cannot demand to revise HR policies to allow them to have weapons- if a store clerk shoots a customer, thats a corporate nightmare- most conceal carry permit holders will still carry in these zones, the risk they run is being asked to leave if weapon is discovered, the risk they do not run is having to stare at some lunatic like this with nothing but a rack of coats to hide behind
Posted by: BKT at December 06, 2007 02:16 PM (gXWeR)
6
I'd appreciate it if, from now on, the media would publish the gun restrictions of the mall or campus where a shooting occurs, instead of just telling us about the state's gun laws. How about a headline that read, "Nine Dead in Gun-Free Zone Shooting?"
Posted by: Mike Harris, MAJ, USA at December 06, 2007 05:20 PM (9n1Ui)
7
THE GUN- the Gun has been parsed the Gun has been denounced the Gun has played a critical role in history. The Gun has been implemented for good the Gun has been abused for evil. With the Gun comes moral responsibility to better understand the Gun is to better understand history, and with the Gun protect your future.
D.B
This morning as I was having my first cup of coffee I turned on the television as I usually do and this is the first thing I heard Nine are dead Five where wounded two critically. All I could think of to my self was God not agene. This is another case if there would have been a few or even one good law abiding citizen Gun owner that fewer people would have died if none at all. I wish the entire lot of Gun hating groups would understand that they maybe abele remove the Gun from law abiding citizens but the facet remains bad ones WILL always fined a way to get a Gun. Also they said it was a SKS carbine assault rifle by witch the SKS is not by any definition. If you have handled one you would know what I meant. And on top of that they proceeded to show a diagram of a Winchester 94. Tragedies like this make my hart and sole turn to ice, Ignorance on top of stupidity like this make my blood boil .
Posted by: Desertbuck at December 06, 2007 06:02 PM (ETW1G)
Posted by: Desertbuck at December 06, 2007 06:48 PM (ETW1G)
9
what the hell is the benifit of giving permission for gun-carrying? I really don't know a gun can do anything but kill vivid living creatures. I am a foreigner,and know little about american culture. I wonder how important guns' status is in american culture.
Posted by: wangquga at December 07, 2007 06:17 AM (J0Q6p)
10
what the hell is the benifit of giving permission for gun-carrying? I really don't know a gun can do anything but kill vivid living creatures.
They're also quite good at killing drab, boring creatures, shooting up the armies of kings and dictators, and making sure that our elements of our government can never carry out a coup against the people or declare a dictatorship.
The Second Amendment recognizes the God-given right we have to provide for our own security.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at December 07, 2007 07:07 AM (HcgFD)
11
An SKS is not an AK-47, An SKS can use high capacity mags and to the untrained eye look like an ak. They were built over 50 years ago and sell for about $99. If this country was not full of liberal, we would be able to carry a weapon and stop things like this from happening. This is what happens when the liberal government officers tells us how to raise children. Looks like time out really worked for this kid.
Posted by: Kid at December 07, 2007 01:47 PM (JlBSZ)
12
Those who are promoting MORE guns might want to think a little about facts and history instead of fanciful speculation. An example of widespread gun ownership: the American west in the 1800's. Result: sky-high murder rate. An example of strict gun control: modern-day Britain. Result: low murder rate. What other facts do you need? In the case of automatic weapons in particular, I don't see a need for them unless you like to see cops get murdered.
As for defending our rights and the Constitution, those are already half-gone thanks to the legal changes of the last few decades. Nobody with a gun did anything about it, nor will they if the trend continues. Thanks a lot, "tough guys." It doesn't matter how many guns you have when you are a moron who isn't paying attention when your rights are being abolished. Some people are more concerned about defending their right to own a gun than they are about defending the rights that those guns are supposed to protect.
On the question of the gun itself in this case, obviously there's been a lot of sloppy reporting regarding what was used. Even a short Google search would have cleared up the issue. I've never even touched a gun but even I know the difference between an SKS and an AK-47. I guess we'll know what it really was once we see the surveillance tapes.
Posted by: Nate at December 07, 2007 03:24 PM (9KZ7w)
13
You can tell from this photo that it's an AK-47 type rifle:
http://news.yahoo.com/nphotos/Omaha-Mall-Shooting-Omaha2C-Neb-Omaha-Police-Department/ss/events/us/120507omahashooting/s:/ap/20071207/ap_on_re_us/mall_shooting/im:/071207/480/ead6490a0ff44b68aaf5b5fc68289a3a/;_ylt=AhoMsybdPCZp34PQT5F6V0lH2ocA#/071207/ids_photos_ts/r1590184548.jpg
Posted by: Nate at December 07, 2007 03:39 PM (9KZ7w)
14
Swiss have literally every gun in every home.. so where is their sky rocket murder rate? Canada has a decent population of gun owners.. where is their sky high murder rate?
Automatic weapons have been tightly control since the 1930s, yet at every chance the anti-gun side brings up this moot point about a class of weapons that are already heavily restricted and impossible to obtain. How many cops have been killed by "automatic" weapons in the last 30 years?
UK has always had a lower murder rate, period.
http://www.crimestatistics.org. uk/output/page40.asp
1996 was the date of the gun ban, yet years afterwards, murder rose despite your claims that gun control equated to lower murders.
All of the guns in the US is concentrated in rural and suburban America... so why do these areas generally have LOW murder figures compared to the inner city where gun control is typically favored and gun ownership is very low??
Why is it that a high percentage of the firearms are owned by middle-aged white male Americans, yet half of the murder rates victims are black males aged 14-24?? Being a young black male, you're 9 times as likely to then if you're a white male of the same age.
Posted by: Another Face at December 07, 2007 04:01 PM (kkVBc)
15
"http://news.yahoo.com/nphotos/Omaha-Mall-Shooting-Omaha2C-Neb-Omaha-Police-Department/ss/events/us/120507omahashooting/s:/ap/20071207/ap_on_re_us/mall_shooting/im:/071207/480/ead6490a0ff44b68aaf5b5fc68289a3a/;_ylt=AhoMsybdPCZp34PQT5F6V0lH2ocA#/071207/ids_photos_ts/r1590184548.jpg"
Uh no you can't. It could very well be an SKS.
Posted by: Another Face at December 07, 2007 04:05 PM (kkVBc)
16
An example of widespread gun ownership: the American west in the 1800's. Result: sky-high murder rate.
Well, that is factually, wrong, but at least we've established that what you know about firearms comes from Hollywood.
In the case of automatic weapons in particular, I don't see a need for them unless you like to see cops get murdered.
Please find the last time a murder was carried out with a legally-owned civilian machine gun, please. Far more people have been killed with automatic weapons fired by police.
You have a great grasp of reality. Not this one, of course...
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at December 07, 2007 04:17 PM (vxbTC)
17
Automatic weapons are obviously not "impossible to obtain" since this kid got one. In fact, a fairly large percentage of gun murders are committed with them. Please note that this doesn't mean I necessarily support the 1990's assault weapons ban, which basically said that "guns that look bad are illegal."
However, there are some valid points that you make about the trends in gun ownership vs. gun deaths.
Another article that drives home your point about the UK somewhat better (I hadn't seen this before):
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/1440764.stm
Switzerland is an oddball and a bad example because guns are regulated there and they have universal conscription. Switzerland is, in a way, an argument for more gun control, not less.
You could, of course, tie the lower murder rate in the UK, in Europe in general and in Canada to the prevalence of the welfare state. Or their emphasis on rehabilitating criminals rather than punishing them. Or perhaps you have a different explanation that you'd like to share.
I stand by my own point that the claim that gun ownership protects our liberties is a complete farce since gun owners have no intention of protecting our liberties.
Posted by: Nate at December 07, 2007 04:31 PM (9KZ7w)
18
Wrong yet again, Nate. This was not an automatic weapon. The media was (once again) wrong to call this an AK-47. It was an AK-pattern semi-automatic. Same look, far different weapon.
Your "own point" is absurd, essentially asserting we should plot a coup every time we don't like a law.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at December 07, 2007 05:29 PM (vxbTC)
19
My own point is that unless you plan to plot a coup, your blather about defending your rights is useless. If you don't plan to plot one, then don't talk as if you do. There is no way for your guns to protect these rights unless you are actually using them. That's like pulling a gun on an armed robber but not but not actually pulling the trigger.
As for your assumption that the gun is semi-automatic, this information comes from the same people who also thought it was an SKS. Not necessarily reliable. Although, I will give you that it is likely that they will find it to be a semi-automatic civilian version.
Posted by: Nate at December 07, 2007 05:41 PM (9KZ7w)
20
You're point is that you're quick to open your mouth about something you have little understanding of. It wasn't an "automatic" rifle in your/the media's defintion of automatic = machine gun.
Fairly large number commited with "automatic" weapons?
http://www.ojp.gov/bjs/pub/pdf/guic.pdf
quote "The FBI's Supplemental Homicide
Reports show that 57% of all murders
in 1993 were committed with handguns,
3% with rifles, 5% with shotguns,
and 5% with firearms"
"automatic" being a misnomer anyway because "automatic" in firearm terminology means that the gun automatically chambers a round after being fired in comparison to breech loaded firearms, bolt action, and pump action.
Oh and that the VT shooter killed 31 people with PISTOLS. So the idea of this gun is too big and powerful or this gun is too small and concealable is nothing more then smoke and mirrors to get them ALL banned.
Control? Lets see.. he stole this weapon from his step father. VT shooter fell thru the legal cracks. The Columbine shooter broke 21 federal firearms laws when they obtained their firearms via a straw purchaser. Approximately 1000 deaths are caused by juvenile gangbangers who unlawfully obtain stolen handguns. Felons are barred from gun ownership, people addicted to controlled substances are barred.
How do we keep the wrong people from illegally obtaining guns? Strict Enforcement of laws already on the books? No. I KNOW, lets make MORE redundant firearms laws! These types of shootings are usually carried out by people who have clean records so what good would it be to have weapons buying permits like in Switzerland? Swiss do kill each other with firearms, just not at the record rates. They also don't have a huge drug problem in the inner city either.
Posted by: Another Face at December 07, 2007 07:08 PM (kkVBc)
21
Thank you so much, Nate, for proving my earlier comment... the first one in this thread... correct.
It's so nice when your opponent is predictable.
Posted by: C-C-G at December 07, 2007 08:12 PM (SoUge)
22
Well there all jerks if your going to kill yourself, Kill yourself dont take it out on a bunch of innocent people such idiots schools should have atleast 1 officer in school and they shouldnt unlock
it dring the day unless its known who the person is
Posted by: Dont ask ! at December 11, 2007 11:07 AM (4mEPc)
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IowaHawk: Foer's Rough Draft
Did we have a Jayson Blair on our hands--or, closer to home, another Stephen Glass, the fabulist who did so much to tarnish this magazine's reputation ten years ago? Or perhaps another Ruth Shalit, whose plagiarism at this magazine did somewhat less tarnishing 2 years earlier? Or could he be another Lee Siegel, whose 2007 sock puppeting at this magazine resulted another tarnishing, albeit only around 40 on the Glass Tarnish Quotient? One fact was clear: painful experience has taught us at The New Republic to be on the lookout for tarnishings...
Heh.
Read the whole thing.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
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Oh my, Franklin! You shouldn't let your post-its get found that easily!
Descent bit of satire there...a bit rough, but more or less good

Posted by: Mark at December 06, 2007 12:03 AM (P8ylB)
2
LOLZ !
Unlike Foer's 14 page bag of mostly farts, I did read EVERY WORD of Lord Iowahawk's reversion of the Foer treatise. All 875 freakin' pages.
Well done Mr. Burge!
Posted by: Justacanuck at December 06, 2007 12:25 AM (hgxwr)
3
Fact-checking is a process used by most magazines (but not most newspapers) to independently verify what's in their articles. Webster defines "Fact" as 1. something that actually exists; reality; truth: 2. something known to exist or to have happened: 3. a truth known by actual experience or observation; something known to be true. But when it comes right down to it, is "fact-checking" really all that simple?
Comedy gold.
Posted by: capitano at December 06, 2007 08:26 AM (+NO33)
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Killing Themselves Softly
"Re-reporting" for The New Republic doesn't apparently consist of going back to talk with experts they've interviewed to discuss discrepancies in their claims.
On August 9, I published
When Hidden Experts are Found, an interview with Doug Coffey, the Head of Communications, Land & Armaments, for BAE Systems. He is the corporate spokesmen
TNR cited—anonymously— on August 2 (my bold):
The last section of the Diarist described soldiers using Bradley Fighting Vehicles to kill dogs. On this topic, one soldier who witnessed the incident described by Beauchamp, wrote in an e-mail: "How you do this (I've seen it done more than once) is, when you approach the dog in question, suddenly lurch the Bradley on the opposite side of the road the dog is on. The rear-end of the vehicle will then swing TOWARD the animal, scaring it into running out into the road. If it works, the dog is running into the center of the road as the driver swings his yoke back around the other way, and the dog becomes a chalk outline." TNR contacted the manufacturer of the Bradley Fighting Vehicle System, where a spokesman confirmed that the vehicle is as maneuverable as Beauchamp described.
As
TNR did not publish his name—or for that matter, any other experts they claim support the allegations made in "Shock Troops"—I stumbled across Coffey purely by accident.
It quickly became apparent that
TNR did not ask him to actually review the specific claims made about Bradley capabilities in "Shock Troops," and once he reviewed the exact passages, he
didn't seem very convinced:
I can't pretend to know what may or may not have happened in Iraq but the impression the writer leaves is that a "driver" can go on joy rides with a 35 ton vehicle at will. The vehicle has a crew and a commander of the vehicle who is in charge. In order for the scenario described to have taken place, there would have to have been collaboration by the entire crew.
The driver's vision, even if sitting in an open hatch is severely restricted along the sides. He sits forward on the left side of the vehicle. His vision is significantly impaired along the right side of the vehicle which makes the account to "suddenly swerve to the right" and actually catch an animal suspect. If you were to attempt the same feat in your car, it would be very difficult and you have the benefit of side mirrors.
Anyone familiar with tracked vehicles knows that turning sharply requires the road wheels on the side of the turn to either stop or reverse as the road wheels on the opposite side accelerates. What may not be obvious is that the track once on the ground, doesn't move. The road wheels roll across it but the track itself is stationary until it is pushed forward by the road wheels.
The width of the track makes it highly unlikely that running over a dog would leave two intact parts. One half of the dog would have to be completely crushed.
It also seems suspicious that a driver could go on repeated joy rides or purposefully run into things. Less a risk to the track though that is certainly possible but there is sensitive equipment on the top of the vehicle, antennas, sights, TOW missile launcher, commander and if it was a newer vehicle, the commander's independent viewer, not to mention the main gun. Strange things are known to happen in a combat environment but I can't imagine that the vehicle commander or the unit commander would tolerate repeated misuse of the vehicle, especially any action that could damage its ability to engage.
This interview with Mr. Coffey has been cited
once or twice, and seems to cast significant doubt on the quality of "re-reporting" done by the editors of
The New Republic.
I would think that in the almost four months since this interview first posted that
TNR would seek to reestablish contact with Mr. Coffey to discuss the apparent discrepancies between what they suggest he said, and what he said here, especially as this is often cited as one of the strongest claims against the quality and intent of their investigation.
To date,
The New Republic still refuses to release the names of the other experts they said supported the claims made in "Shock Troops."
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
12:06 PM
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1
C'mon Bob, they said they talked to another journalist who spent time in Iraq who said he had "heard" of such stories, but hadn't seen incidents first hand. That makes it a fact checked not an urban legend.
Posted by: daleyrocks at December 05, 2007 01:55 PM (0pZel)
2
I think it's pretty clear that there is some truth to Beauchamp's Bradley accusations -- namely that animals get killed by vehicles -- and TNR is desperately trying to move the goalposts there. I think it's important to emphasize that no one thinks it implausible that a Bradley has run over a dog on occasion, whether in Iraq or somewhere else. It's also possible that there is a Bradley driver who is not particularly heartbroken over these accidental run-ins. Just like me -- we hit a dear with the van a couple of weeks back, and I am considerably more bummed by the damage to the van, and the hassle of getting it fixed and paid for, than I am sympathetic to the deer with the broken hip who was probably brought down by coyotes later.
But the part in the Fog of Foer where he basically claims that they were just about to recant Beauchamp's fabulisms when they were arrested by the news that Bradleys occasionally do hit and kill dogs is very telling. They seriously fixated on this, and still seem to think that what matters is whether or not Bradleys can kill dogs in a collision, rather than whether a Bradley has the manuverability to allow a driver to deliberately kill a dog. Because, of course, the whole point is that a Bradley is significantly less manuverable than a minvan, and as everyone who has ever faced a deer in the headlights knows, it's all up to the deer at that point. Even if there is a Bradley driver out there who is keeping a book listing dog collisions, it is a record of bad luck and bad decisions on the part of the dogs, and has nothing to do with the skill of the driver at all.
Posted by: cathyf at December 05, 2007 03:06 PM (fe6fb)
3
Bob, I think this piece of the sorry Beauchamp saga is by far the most incriminating against TNR as it shows a deliberate attempt on their part to obfuscate the truth while using the BAE people as a way to give crediblity to this canard. In this case, a TNR checker deliberately asked misleading questions in an attempt to circumvent the truth. The most telling indicator was that TNR never even gave the BAE person a copy of the Beauchamp piece for review. How the owners of a magazine would allow such conduct to stand as responsible reporting/fact checking is beyond words.
Posted by: DaveB at December 05, 2007 03:53 PM (+x5cj)
4
I wrote a similar comment to a number of different media outlets when this came out, but also pointed out that in an environment in which any piece of debris can hide an IED, no track commander would permit his driver to run over items in the road just for fun. In addition, the crew would be tossed around like ice in a shaker. It's one thing to be thrown against an armored compartment in order to avoid an RPG or IED, it's another to get tossed because your driver likes to run over dogs. A driver who did stupid, dangerous things for his own amusement would soon find himself relegated to the back of the track while his replacement did the job.
Media Matters got it right (for once) when they pointed out that TNR had no one on staff who knew enough about the military to spot this, but they are hardly alone in this. The elite media despises us and they'd be more likely to socialize with a homeless drug addict than a Soldier or Marine.
Posted by: Mike Harris, MAJ, USA at December 06, 2007 05:15 PM (9n1Ui)
5
Major Harris,
Thank you for your service. I would like to take this opportunity to cyber-shake your hand. If you are ever in Cheyenne, WY I'll buy dinner and drinks for you and your entire family.
Thank you for doing something I cannot physically do and desperately wish I could.
Posted by: Mark at December 06, 2007 09:38 PM (P8ylB)
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December 04, 2007
Slowly, Slowly...
The TNR saga is slowly seeping into the media, with posts this morning at the Washington Post and the New York Times, in addition to last night's mention in the New York Observer.
Not a single one of these outlets discusses the fact that Franklin Foer spent the better part of 13 pages alleging a military conspiracy spanning four bases in three countries involving dozens of soldiers, from privates to colonels.
I guess they didn't want to discuss how nutty that explanation sounds.
Nor did they mention that Foer and
The New Republic refused to apologize to those soldiers in Iraq and Kuwait they accused of atrocities.
Not a single one them acknowledges that Foer was being deceptive when he claimed back in July "the article was rigorously edited and fact-checked before it was published".
Nor did they mention that both of the author's prior stories made statements--at least one unequivocally false--that should have made them doubt his veracity from the beginning. Even
Media Matters ripped
The New Republic for their handling of this debacle, perhaps marking the first time in history the organization has ever been to the right of major news outlets.
No. I'm
not kidding:
Essentially, what unnerved me is that a magazine like TNR was so completely divorced from the military that they did not even have one person on staff -- one single person -- who was personally connected to a career professional in the military (and Elspeth Reeve, an intern at TNR who is now married to Beauchamp -- himself not a career professional in the military -- doesn't count), who could have a) helped them screen what was being sent in the first place, and b) helped them figure out how to fact-check the guy (let alone, after the fact, help them figure out what was really going on). I mean, seriously, how is it that at this point the best de facto depictions of life in-country come ... in Doonesbury?! (The very liberal cartoonist Gary Trudeau is, in a strange twist of journalism, apparently far better wired in to real soldiers on the ground than is the editor of a major magazine? How did this happen?)
Folks, we are six freaking years into a war now. Regardless of how you or I or Eric or anybody feels about the causality of these wars, the fact of these wars remain important for all of us to understand. We are six years into a period in which the military and issues of war have been, like, you know, sort of central. How could TNR remain so divorced from anyone in the military for so long that they eventually fell for this?
Nor have the professional media sought to address, in any way, that
The New Republic hid testimony provided to it by military personnel that contradicted their preferred narrative, and have flatly refused to provide the names of their anonymous civilian experts they interviewed, perhaps because the one that was found shows
just how disreputable the magazine truly is.
This story is
far from over, folks.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
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Posted by: T.Ferg at December 04, 2007 10:08 AM (2YVh7)
2
When I was a young man there was a trade called "reporting". That trade died, unfortunately replaced by the "proffession of journalism".
Reporters were mostly bright, lower class kids with a way with words. They found their way out of the factories and farms. Their brothers and cousins were factory workers, farmers, cops and soldiers.
These days, instead of the bright working class kids, the upper class sends it's kids who aren't bright enough for management go into journalism. The dumbest kids in the universities are in the school of education, the next dumbest are in J-schools and schools of social work.
Please don't act surprised at the shortcomings of journalists. Dimbulbs just can't help it.
Posted by: Peter at December 04, 2007 12:17 PM (AiJXe)
3
Thank you for your tireless efforts in this regard. I made my voice heard too, but you deserve high praise for turning the tide. I have one other suggestion: Each year there are Darwin Awards, i.e., for people who remove themselves from the gene pool via stupidity often combined with arrogance. Can you orchestrate Dan Rather Awards, e.g., hold them each year on the anniversary of some important date in the Dan Rather TANG story debacle? Candidates would be those journalists (including faux photographers who multiply the degree of bomb produced smoke over Damascus) whose asine works are uncovered by bloggers and which eventually forces them to recant. Points for scoring who would win that year could be based on many factors such as the size of the whopper, the time it takes for them to recant, or even if they don't recant personally, the time it takes their media outlet to desert them, etc. I think that posting a table showing these points in the various categories andd which adds them up based on a reasonable formula along with a succinct narative, cropped images, etc., would help convince your readers that the most deserving journalist et al. "won" that award that year, while also establishing the relative asinity of the "runners-up".
Best wishes.
Posted by: Ivon Fergus at December 04, 2007 12:55 PM (o3NlY)
4
What twigged me, and many others, was the bit about the dogs. You just don't do that with a track! Most especially, you don't do that with a track containing people who are standing up wearing lots of heavy gear and carrying stuff -- and most most most especially, you don't do that with a track containing, etc., when you might be under fire at the moment. The situation deteriorated from there.
And note what Foer did. He called up the manufacturer, whose rep is quoted in the blogosphere as saying something resembling the above and no doubt said the same thing to the TNR staffer making the inquiry. But, being an honest person, the rep no doubt also made some statement to the effect that he wasn't there and soldiers are inventive and sometimes irresponsible -- and that's all Foer heard of the entire conversation from what he reports.
That's not lack of information or even misinformation. He took a statement that did not support his assumptions, and extracted from it what appeared to him to support them. That's delusion on the level of the guys on street corners ranting about conspiracies between the CIA and Gray aliens. Millenium hand, and shrimp!
Regards,
Ric
Posted by: Ric Locke at December 04, 2007 02:47 PM (DTj4I)
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Bob, you're STIFLING THEIR DISSENT!
Seriously, hats off to ya, buddy. They could surely profit from the example of real journalism you've set them, here and elsewhere. But we both know they won't.
Posted by: Mike at December 04, 2007 03:00 PM (U1PqM)
6
What is stunning to me is that Foer seems to argue that the story about a soldier wearing a human skull into battle was true,
but that officers of the US army constructed a cover cover up and coerced soldiers to sign statements supporting the cover up.
This it seems to me, would be a huge story if it could be proven.
First Foer got Beauchamped, now it seems he is trying to Beauchamp himself.
By the time I got to the part where
Foer finally admitted that TNR couldn't stand by Beauchamp's piece, my main
thought was when will TNR admit that they can
not stand by Foer's piece?
The whole idea of bringing in the real fact checkers after the article is published is
pretty funny, I have to admit. Lets see what
the real fact checkers have to say about Foer's
article. Foer's piece was dated 12/10/2007, so
the fact checkers probably won't even know of
its existence till next week and may not actually read it before the end of the year.
Posted by: kenmoreland at December 04, 2007 03:26 PM (/Vadj)
7
You'll notice that the MSM put the story on ice until they had an 'equilavence' slam against NRO.
The difference, of course, being that TNR stonewalled for 5 months and NRO immediately admitted the shortcomings of their pieces and rectified the situation.
Posted by: John at December 04, 2007 03:51 PM (tT2sa)
8
As a parent I think I speak from experience when I contend that if it takes fourteen pages of excuses for someone to work themselves up to saying "oops" there is sufficient grounds to question their sincerity.
Posted by: submandave at December 04, 2007 03:58 PM (ljAGw)
9
Another distinction, John, on these two events is that the NRO errors are politically neutral; whether or not there were certain numbers of Hezbies and Hamantashen doing what they do at a particular place and time, in particular numbers, is hardly identifiable as a trope of one political persuasion or another. Baghdad Diaries... not so much.
Posted by: megapotamus at December 04, 2007 03:58 PM (LF+qW)
10
Thanks Bob.
USMC '82-88
Posted by: DaveW at December 04, 2007 04:01 PM (PSjyc)
11
Media Matters wrote, "Essentially, what unnerved me is that a magazine like TNR was so completely divorced from the military that they did not even have one person on staff -- one single person -- who was personally connected to a career professional in the military."
Fred Reed, a Marine in Viet Nam and a career reporter writes on the news media and reporters, with some references to the military in An Oozing of Gray Sludge.
Some excerpts.
"In thirty years of in the writing trades, I’ve covered a lot of things, but three in particular: The military, the sciences, and the police. For years I had a military column syndicated by Universal Press Syndicate and later carried by the Army Times papers until I was fired for political incorrectness. For half a dozen years I rode with the cops all around the country for my police column in the Washington Times. And I’ve written tech columns and pieces for technical mags like Signal forever."
"This isn’t my first rodeo."
"In each case the reporters I met were, with very few exceptions, pig ignorant. The military reporters didn’t know the history, the weaponry, the technology, strategy, tactics, or how soldiers work. Almost none had served."
"Over the years I’ve noticed several things. First, in print publications, most reporters aren’t very smart. A few are very bright, but probably through a mistake in hiring. (The prestigious papers are exceptions, hiring Ivy League snots of the sort who viscerally dislike soldiers, cops, rural people, guns, etc.)"
Fred's disgruntlement is our gain.
Posted by: Looking Glass at December 04, 2007 04:10 PM (lmkcJ)
12
I ran out of gas. I got a flat tire. I..uh..didn't have change for cab fare. I left my tux at the cleaners! I locked my keys in the car! An old friend came in from out of town! Someone stole my car! There was an earthquake . . .a terrible flood! IT WASN'T MY FAULT I SWEAR TO GOD!!!
Therefore, we can no longer stand by the story.
Posted by: Mike S at December 04, 2007 04:38 PM (/4imY)
13
Thanks very much.
USAF, 1984-1991
Posted by: Patrick Carroll at December 04, 2007 04:53 PM (xho2Y)
14
The American left is so anti-war that it simply cannot see the military without a negative bias. Believe me, I know. I joined the anti-war ranks during Vietnam and woke up to cold realities only after 9/11. But at least I woke up. I can't say the same for TNR and others who simply won't EVER get it.
Thank you for your brilliant and tireless work on behalf of the truth.
Posted by: E. Miller at December 04, 2007 05:07 PM (/YDnc)
15
Seeing how TNR values propaganda over truth, the lesson is clear:
They have sold their birthright for a pot of message.
Posted by: pst314 at December 04, 2007 05:09 PM (OA547)
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Okay. This is the most memorable story out of Iraq.
Guess who then gets to keep the problem?
Did you know that there are people "out there," who call this adventure Bush's war?
Seems lots of people think we've been ripped off. But they can't quite figure out the "how" part.
Like in "how" did we get to do so much work for the Saud's? While Maliki hates out guts. And, Afghanistan is going to hell in a hand basket.
Okay. So you "bagged" TNR. Big deal.
But how come the army let Beauchamp "keep serving?" If he's the biggest story teller in Iraq, how come there is a marine who is on trial for his life? His crime? He was sent out at night, to patrol. With an Iraqi. Who lit a cigarette. Giving away their position to snipers. So, to protect his own life, this marine tried to get the Iraqi to put out his cigarette. Words led to fists. Led to the Iraqi reaching for his AK-47. And, yes. The marine with only a knife in this fight, killed the Iraqi. But now? 20 terrorists watched. So the American lawyers have 20 "witnesses" looking to hang this marine.
Too bad Maliki hates Bush. If he didn't, the Marine's life wouldn't be at stake.
And, Beauchamp? What happens when his tongue starts to wag? Or his computer starts to function?
You think TNR's surrender is the best story out of Iraq? Wow. Plus, I don't think they surrendered. They just took their time sifting through the bullshit.
It's pretty standard, when you go to war, and you are part of the action; your brain shifts gears. And, you get hardened.
Perhaps, TRN can't recognize a hardened soldier. Doesn't mean there aren't stories out their that would make your hairs on your head stand on end.
You can't fool me. The Saud's are financing terror. And, Bush is pushing for them to get "status" in the Mideast.
We shall see.
Posted by: Carol Herman at December 04, 2007 07:05 PM (WVnVh)
17
Did you know that there are people "out there," who call this adventure Bush's war?
Yes Carol, we know you do. And you are "out there", really out there.
Posted by: Boss429 at December 04, 2007 07:39 PM (pjz6G)
18
Carol - Do you have a citation for the follwing portion of your comment?
"You think TNR's surrender is the best story out of Iraq? Wow."
Posted by: daleyrocks at December 04, 2007 07:56 PM (0pZel)
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There you have it, folks, a shining example of the left. Thank you for that, Carol.
Posted by: C-C-G at December 04, 2007 08:08 PM (SoUge)
20
it is so sad that you people think that this is some kind of victory, or that you think TNR is a left wing rag.
from the well over a thousand postings on TNR talkback section, you might imagine that TNR did the equivalent of telling the Germans of the DDay landing. Has anyone here actually read all 14 boring pages of the Foer article? I am a subscriber who thought that 3rd story was too macabre, even if true, but it was one story out of tens of thousands written yearly. Victor Hanson has written for TNR, and not long ago. It has also had Fred Barnes, Morton Kondrake, etc. on its staff. It produces much greatness and a few clinkers.
As to Beauchamp, he is an ass who, if telling the truth, is a jerk, if embellishing or lying betrayed his wife and her company by his actions.
I have been an ardent supporter of the war, and of the surge (wishing it had been done years ago) I engage in many long and useful discussions with other TNR readers. We go from the far left to the far right (has anyone here ever read Marty Peretz's blog the Spine?) no squishy liberal he. There is no groupthink at TNR. Some of the most vociferous Hillary bashing can be found there (as well as her defense)
I seriously doubt most of the posters here could last a week with the intellects who post at TNR's talkback. Believe you me, I don't include myself in this group, but I do learn from many of these people. Don't judge everything on one story, especially when the story is a minor sideshow relegated to the back of the magazine.
Posted by: oaxaca at December 04, 2007 08:30 PM (ALRl0)
21
Oaxaca, if you think that it's still possible that Beauchamp is telling the truth, you are willfully ignorant, and therefore not worth further discourse.
Good day, sir. I said, good day!
Posted by: C-C-G at December 04, 2007 08:32 PM (SoUge)
22
Ric Locke:
What got me was the dining hall story. I am in the Coast Guard Auxiliary, I have eaten at Coast Guard stations, and ribbing and poor-taste jokes happen. But such cruelty to a wounded person in the hearing of NCOs is not heard. It didn't fly with me, especially as I also work in government on my day job and in both the day job and the USCGAUX we have been given the videos and sermons about behavior.
Joke with your buddies when no one is around to overhear? That happens. Do that when more than your buddies are around and someone will have to say something if a complaint is filed? Hell no!
It didn't fly, no one said "STFU, you idiot."
That sounded more like a high school cafeteria story than a large military mess deck to me.
Regards, Mikey NTH
Posted by: Mikey NTH at December 04, 2007 08:44 PM (kAnhF)
23
before I get yelled at for being some kind of leftist pinko, I want to mention that I have spent over 10 years living and working in the third world. In China criminal gangs kidnap small children from peasant farmers, break their bones and reset them in crippling fashion, in order to make them effective beggars. Does anyone here doubt me? I think not, I need no proof because you know it is true. It got to the point I could no longer live in rural China.
Now I am in Oaxaca, recently a group of young Guatemelan migrant girls were kidnapped on the way to America, with the direct support or complicity of the Police, aimed to extort money from immigrants' families already in the United States. A brave Catholic priest Padre J. Alejandro Solalinde Guerra of the Tehuantepec Diocese was jailed by the same police for his protests on behalf of them.
I have daily seen such genuine heartbreak and horror that a story of a few dogs run over, a mocked woman, or bits of bodies where dead bodies are in abundance, all that shocking.
It makes me wonder if many of you find the story all that shocking either, or just find this an excuse to vent hatred at your fellow Americans whose politics you disagree with.
Move to a third world country for a while and you will find just how many values you share with Democrats (or Republicans) and you will wonder just what you were so pissed off with them about.
Posted by: oaxaca at December 04, 2007 08:51 PM (ALRl0)
24
BTW: When I typed "wounded" I meant "hurt"*. Stupidity happens and things happen, but just ripping apart another person because of an injury? Not like that.
*I'm on the Great Lakes. Injuries happen, but so far no 'bad guy inflicted' wounds that I know of. Thank God
Posted by: Mikey NTH at December 04, 2007 08:52 PM (kAnhF)
25
oaxaca: What you are reporting is not the fault of or the actions of US military personnel. There is a vast difference in behavior between the US Army and the Mexican police or Chinese criminal gangs.
Try again.
Posted by: Mikey NTH at December 04, 2007 08:56 PM (kAnhF)
26
thank you C-C-G for proving my point at just how closed minded many of you are and insulated your lives truly are. What have you done to truly help your fellow man? I have lived in poverty from a small island in Micronesia, rural China, rural Mexico, to realize just how insignificant that story of Beauchamp was, certainly not worth the thousands of posts related to it.
When my second son was born prematurely in China I found out later a girl, who was even more premature, was nearby. The father, a poor peasant, did not want a girl (one child policy and all) and he did not want to pay for the incubator, the hospital itself simply let that baby die. I found out about this later. I don't know what I could have done, at the least I would have offered to put my name on the birth certificate as the child's father and paid for the babies treatment, I am certain I could have found many Americans who would have adopted the baby.
But I didn't know until afterwards, I was too engrossed in my own son to pay much attention. I did nothing wrong yet I still feel such regret.
How dare you call me willfully ignorant. I doubt you will even read this, and if you did doubt an apology would ever grace your lips. Believe me, you have no idea the things that are possible, especially in the third world where life is cheap.
Posted by: oaxaca at December 04, 2007 09:05 PM (ALRl0)
27
Oaxaca, why don't you go back into the archives of this very blog and see how CY proves conclusively that Beauchamp could not possibly have told the truth?
Then I shall accept an apology from you.
As for what I have done... I am not going to get into a "holier than thou" contest, and you're showing your own colors by attempting to draw me into such. Since you cannot disprove my statements, you are attacking me personally.
Begone, troll!
Posted by: C-C-G at December 04, 2007 09:09 PM (SoUge)
28
oaxaca - I can readily believe your assurances that you would not be able to hold your own in a discussion thread over at TNR. I'm not sure what that proves since I also suspect you wouldn't do any better with fifth graders.
It is totally meaningless and absurd to be drawing some sort of parallel between what you witnessed in your work assignments in some third world location and fabricated stories published in a prominent magazine for the sole purpose of denigrating American soldiers.
Posted by: Terry at December 04, 2007 09:14 PM (AiJXe)
29
Mickey NTH, I never said anything about the US military being at fault in the slightest. Did you even read what I wrote, or did you read what you wanted to think I wrote? I said Beauchamp was at fault foremost, for being either an ass or a liar. I also said TNR was wrong to publish this last piece, my main point is I don't care anymore and am not sure why so many of you do to the extent that you seem to. The TNR readers took Foer to task from day one on this issue, we are sick to death of it, especially when it becomes simply an issue to bash people's politics over the head with. Martin Peretz, the recent owner, has and continues to be a vigorous supporter of the war. TNR is not this one story, can't you realize that?
You know, I really enjoy the dialogs between Jonah Goldberg of NRO and Peter Beinert of TNR.
I won't condemn NRO because of one part time blog writer who lied or exagerrated about Beirut. That would be infantile. As I said, if Beauchamp lied, he betrayed his wife, his wife's employer, and his fellow troops. If he didn't he is an ass who should be ignored at best, punished at worst. End of story. Why he wasn't dishonorably discharged is a different issue, I would hope the US military ain't that hard up for troops. But since they didn't and he remains a soldier the US military doesn't seem to be that concerned by it either.
Posted by: oaxaca at December 04, 2007 09:24 PM (ALRl0)
30
Bob, the fact that you are not addressing the NRO/Smith issue is driving the idiots at Sadly,No completely insane.
Please keep up the good work.
Posted by: marc at December 04, 2007 09:24 PM (/NgrF)
31
I do find this thread very amusing. I have been a consistent war supporter for years, but have always been hobbled by the hosanna chorus of see no wrongs done by President Bush.
How thick are you people? Beauchamp is a serving soldier, he betrayed his wife, his fellow soldiers, and TNR. Foer trusted a serving soldier, and in the wake of Abu Ghraib, is what he really wrote so shocking. Beauchamp denigrated first and foremost himself.
Answer me, why hasn't Beauchamp been discharged for conduct unbecoming? None of you can answer because you are all doubtless brain dead. I have tried to engage in a meaningful conversation but with the hosanna chorus it just ain't possible. You would not last a week doing what I do.
Holier than thou, damn right I am. I take pride in my service to the worlds poor.
I find it stunning that not a one of you felt the least bit of sympathy for that dead baby girl to at least mention it before you got on with your ad hominem attacks. Honestly, you are all a bunch of heartless bastards, self righteous and pathetic. Don't worry, I will be gone, and gone for good. I can't waste my time with you people.
Feel free to rip me, claim I made up everything, I don't care. I know what matters, and I know by next week all of this will be forgotten by you and I.
Ask yourself one question though, what have you done for the poor of the world today. Myself, I know I did my share. So ultimately, when I die I can look God in the face. He will forgive me for losing patience with fools such as yourselves. YOu can say you blogged and pretended that mattered. Zaijian, Hasta Luego, Auf Wiedersehen. Unlike you idiots, I speak 4 languages.
Posted by: oaxaca at December 04, 2007 09:40 PM (ALRl0)
32
Oaxaca, next time you're in your Bible, check out the following verses:
Proverbs 16:18: "Pride goes before destruction, and a haughty spirit before a fall."
Proverbs 27:2: "Let another man praise you, and not your own mouth; a stranger, and not your own lips."
Matthew 23:12: "And whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted."
And probably the best one...
Matthew 6:5: "And when you pray, you shall not be like the hypocrites. For they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the corners of the streets, that they may be seen by men. Assuredly, I say to you, they have their reward."
Oh, one more thing. Don't try to act self-righteous around a preacher's kid, lay preacher, and theology student. You typically get your head handed to you.
Posted by: C-C-G at December 04, 2007 09:54 PM (SoUge)
33
This holiday season, the editors at TNR have provided all of us with a remarkable lesson on the value of the common man.
While journalists increasingly aspire to heroic "sticking it to the man" and "screwing the right-wing conspiracy" greatness, tossing ethics, boring objective reporting, fact-checking and other tired and unrewarding distractions, countless people in our daily experience patiently carry out their seemingly uninteresting tasks. Their humble, consistent efforts make our life experience so much greater.
Seriously said, how many people do each of us ignore each day that do presumably boring, undynamic yet probably quite necessary functions? I see the same guy cleaning our restrooms daily who always has the best attitude and does a damn good job cleaning. Another female security guard at our front gate always puts you in a good mood with her pleasant yet diligent effort.
I going to make sure I find a way to thank these sincere "people of quality" that make our country great. Forget these ethically bankrupt journalistic poseurs in a dying profession this holiday season and do something nice for those who tirelessly do truly outstanding, unremarkable work.
Posted by: redherkey at December 04, 2007 11:11 PM (kjqFg)
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I going to make sure I find a way to thank these sincere "people of quality" that make our country great.
Shake their hand, look them straight in the eye, and say "thank you."
Really, it works. And it's worth more than even Bill Gates' fortune.
Posted by: C-C-G at December 04, 2007 11:15 PM (SoUge)
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Oaxaca,
What you are doing is good work and I applaud you. The problem with what you have written in your comments is that you conflate evil and wrong deeds that have nothing to do with the subject matter at hand.
Godspeed.
Posted by: Mark at December 04, 2007 11:26 PM (P8ylB)
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oaxaca, if you are still here,
1) thank heaven that unlike TNR this blog allows
--whitespace--
aaaah! (carriage returns don't show on the TNR site)
2) your support for the war is noted. criticism of beauchamp noted. criticism of tnr noted.
3) what i think we are left with is, tempest in a teapot, there are bigger fish, even the bad acts described by beauchamp, if true, are petty stuff compared with your 3W experiences, and one of tnr's FAILs was to consider them worth posting on.
this is all pretty true.
4) what you fail to consider is: we feel that the meritorious observations you make are better made by tnr. the fact that they prefer to expose dog-slicing and skull-play means either:
a) they have no values
b) their values say that minor bad acts that reflect badly on the US/US military are more significant and newsworthy than major bad acts that do not reflect badly on the US/US military, or that reflect badly on #Wers who are supposed to be victims all the time but never perpetrators of evil.
5) thank you for your fine service on behalf of the world's downtrodden (although there are no doubt poor people in the US who could also use your help).
i think this should lead you to agree with us that tnr's actions have harmed the US by lying/error, and the world's poor by omission/neglect.
furthermore i think you would agree that tnr has not only shown FAIL in the original harms as above, but by their bad attitude in handling it.
6) many die-hard posters on tnr think they are doing something good but are only enabling the tnr FAIL. they are doing harm in this way. also, though you may feel you have gotten short shrift here, i think you have been treated better than the tnr reader die-hards treat "nonsubscribing wingnut smegma-heads," if you get me.
7) i also agree that boasting of one's philanthropies is in questionable taste, at least to followers of Judaeo-Christian ethics, except perhaps inasmuch as it serves to encourage others. many people here do wonderful things for others and will never speak of it.
Posted by: nichevo at December 04, 2007 11:32 PM (aBVUu)
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At a young age I learned this very important thing: make friends with janitors, lunch ladies, and paperboys. Tell them all "thank you" whenever you can. Having been two of the three helped quite a bit in learning that.
I really cannot tell you just how many time those two little words spoken in a heart-felt and serious way either made my day or the person I spoke them to.
In that vein -
CY, for all you do - Thank you.
Thank you to all other commentors for your efforts on these pages...yes, even the trolls

Posted by: Mark at December 04, 2007 11:34 PM (P8ylB)
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Mark, you were a lunch lady?
Sorry, couldn't resist.
I second the thanks to CY, and extend it not only to the commenters, but also to the lurkers... if you have a job, no matter what it is, you help society at large. Thank you.
Posted by: C-C-G at December 04, 2007 11:38 PM (SoUge)
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Come on, CCG - the outfits (and hairnets) were cool...and the extra cookies, mmmmmmm
Posted by: mark at December 04, 2007 11:55 PM (P8ylB)
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Bob:
"This story is far from over, folks."
I certainly agree that it shouldn't be over yet, because the most revealing paragraph in Foer's apologia has gotten almost no attention:
Naturally we wanted to learn more about the dog-hunting and the skull–although, in hindsight, the genesis of these anecdotes in such a nonchalant aside should have provoked greater suspicion. Beauchamp revised the piece, and we sanded down the prose. A month after he submitted the first draft, after several revisions, it entered into galleys.
TNR clearly had a far more active role in shaping Beauchamp's "diaries" then they have previously been willing to admit. Indeed, I suspect Foer was too caught up in his effort to demonstrate how seriously TNR took its responsibilities (layers of editors hard at work!) to realize how damaging an admission he's made. Not only did Beauchamp write up 2 of the 3 most inflammatory anecdotes in "Shock Troops" at TNR's specific behest, TNR participated heavily in developing the very piece that set off the alarm bells -- from two snippets that Beauchamp himself barely mentioned in the effort he originally submitted.
One can only imagine what sort of "dialogue between soldiers in a guard tower" TNR actually rejected outright. I don't doubt it was quite a task to transform Beauchamp's Hemingway into "the introspective writings of a low-ranking soldier" describing "the plight of sensitive young soldiers on the front line." No wonder the end results were so badly written! There's plenty that makes no logical sense in Beauchamp's earlier essays too (the putatatively well-received "James Bond" story in particular), and I see no reason not to suspect heavy handed editorial intervention there as well. This was clearly an agenda driven process, regardless of whether it was also politically motivated or not.
These stories derive from an author in search of a publisher, and a publisher willing to take advantage of a young soldier's amibitions: After a month of sanding and multiple rewrites, Beauchamp finally produced the piece that TNR wanted him to write. The misbegotten editorial judgment which spawned this hoax, and the editorial dishonesty of trying to pass off the resulting work as an unadulterated 1st person narrative from the front, are ultimately more damning than the prevarication which has characterized Foer's attempt at damage control.
Posted by: JM Hanes at December 05, 2007 02:42 AM (bKtAF)
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digitusmedius takes "the right wing" to task for "pure speculation" on TNR's stories. Well, duh. The Bradley rep clearly doesn't know what happened in Iraq, and states that fact. But digitusmedius, dahling, the same is true of you. And me. All of us. Absent speculation we all would remain mute.
Granted, speculation should be based on evidence, and rational interpretation of the facts at hand.
You don't provide any evidence. At all. None. The basic dialog with you goes like this:
Commenters: provide facts based on personal and extensive knowledge of military tactics, Bradley performance, ammo, firearms, identified sources, etc. etc. etc. that strongly suggest TNR is shovelling guano.
You: a) Bush is the devil; b) you lying scum!; c) prove it didn't happen; d) Abu Graib; e) hey, nice shoes; f) bite me. When challenged, change the subject. If further challenged, whine. Repeat as necessary.
BO-RING.
Posted by: Mikey at December 05, 2007 04:01 AM (+Am0I)
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oaxaca:
Then why are you even bringing up the Mexican police, Chinese criminal gangs, or the fact that the third world isn't a nice place? What the devil does that have to do with Pvt. Beauchamp's fantasy stories unless you are trying to conflate the US Army with the Mexican police or a criminal gang? What does that have to do with the fact that TNR printed those fantasies without checking and then spent over four months in denial before issuing a non-apology apology? You worked in the third world? Bully for you; and that has something to do with this subject - how?
Try being a little less strident, a little less holier-than-thou, but above all, try making a point!
Posted by: Mikey NTH at December 05, 2007 06:18 AM (xzmT0)
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JM Hanes,
I have been saying that all along too. Just posted at TNR (please, folks, their sloppy site has a long delay before posts appear), and I have posted other places, that square backed bullet nonsense most probably came from the TNR offices, not Baghdad.
As someone who has had experience being "interviewed" under the guise of a date, then being written about without foreknowledge or permission, to include a fabricated quote and plenty of fabricated details, all from TNR, by a writer/researcher who is now an assistant editor, I think that I can assure you that there is a HUGE difference between the story you read and the information that they began with.
BTW, Eve Fairbanks (who I am referring to above) is a Yale educated and trained reporter, the Foer excuse of PV1 Beauchamp not having that training falls a bit flat.
Also, Foer's ignorance is glairing when he did not know the driver's license organ doner thing was a freaking joke!? To top it off, he sounds like he lifted quite similar words from another 'blogger who doubted that bit and checked out Iraqi driver's licenses for organ doner status (they don't have one). Wasn't that Blackfive who researched that? I should look it up, or someone else can compare and contrast. BTW, in my head I said "are you freaking kidding me, you think that is serious" when I red the 'blogger complaint about the DL comment as if it were serious.
Oh, did anybody notice the 'nice touch' that Mr. Foer used to burn PV1 Beauchamp's Platoon Seargent? He would not name the guy out of respect for him asking for his name not be used, he might as well given the paragraph and line number from the MTOE for the guy.
BTW Bob, I did like that you addressed the NRO/Smith issue, but being as harsh on them for coming out and addressing things right away as you have on TNR is a little too much.
I am pretty darn certain that the stories submitted are seriously different than the ones that were printed and a lot of the stuff everybody is complaining about was done in DC, not Iraq/Kuwait/Germany.
Posted by: Guy Montag at December 05, 2007 07:03 AM (otDb3)
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As a soldier, what bothers me the most was that in Frank Foer's long excuse of an explanation, I don't see the words "sorry" or "apologize" anywhere. This is especially rich since Mr. Foer once demanded that his detractors apologize over the issue (as well as dozens of other pundits, btw. Look here for example).
All he had to do was print a one page piece claiming "we no longer have confidence in our source, and are sorry for misleading the public."
Also, I want to answer Carol Herman:
Beauchamp? What happens when his tongue starts to wag? Or his computer starts to function?
He probably already has his computer back, but even if he doesn't there are dozens of ways he could have communicated with TNR. Buy an Iraqi cell phone. Use the AT&T phones on FOB Falcon, use the MWR computers. Even if Beauchamp was still under 100% communications restriction (which is unlikely) he could still send an old-fashioned letter through the US mail (you don't even need a stamp when sending from Iraq).
But he chose not to do so, and I know why. Because his stories were simply impossible. No, it's not the most important story of the war, but it is just one of many fake stories I've seen over the years. This one just got more publicity, that's all.
Posted by: John Rohan at December 05, 2007 10:48 AM (BfPzY)
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nichevo, great post in actually addressing what I said and not what you imagine I said. TNR has a subscriber base of 60,000 people, probably less than a magazine devoted to Ferret owners. We are talking about 60,000 worldwide. Understandably they don't have a Baghdad bureau, and given their limited revenues took a journalistic shortcut by relying on a fact checker who was dating the author of the story. No question, Foer f'ed up. Again, we are talking about a magazine with 60,000 subscribers. National Review just got hosed by one of their own bloggers who point blank made up things in Lebanon. Why anyone would lie about scum like Hamas is beyond me? Tell the truth about them, but now the issue becomes NRO's lies and not the villainy of Hamas. I don't think that should be so.
I won't get caught up in pointing fingers at NRO, they were betrayed. I am certain that TNR has values. Not to long ago Victor D. Hanson wrote an article in TNR (you know, the historian who is quoted by Dick Cheney) about how to win the war. I am happy (unlike some others) that TNR commissioned the piece.
TNR has f'ed up about other issues. Joshua Kurlanzick not long ago talked about the Chinese people's reluctance to speak about the Cultural Revolution. Bullocks. He went up to english speaking chinese strangers and asked them about it, naturally they were reluctant to talk about it. Learn Mandarin and you will find Chinese people there who won't shut up about it. Should Foer have been fired over that? I accepted they didn't have the resources, that Kurlanzick did believe what he wrote, he was just wrong, and I pointed out how he was wrong. Basically, I was the only person in the world who called him on it.
My point is TNR often will publish articles bridging all sides of the spectrum, they are a small magazine with very finite resources. Don't make this more than it is.
I got all holier than thou because of people saying TNR readers live in a cocoon, if so our cocoon encompasses the whole world.
Anyway, nichevo, excellent posting. (unlike CCG who thinks quoting scripture takes the place of helping people in the real world)
By the way, that priest who was arrested was released because of bunch of us down here wrote Human rights watch, who in turn pressured Calderon who ordered him released. Yes, I helped cause the release of an unjustly prisoned Catholic priest (being american and taking pictures of the prison he was held does make a difference)
and just how many political prisoners has CCG helped release lately? Oh right, none.
Posted by: oaxaca at December 05, 2007 11:09 AM (ALRl0)
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ccg, if you want to make a difference, besides condescendingly thanking the guy who cleans your companies toilets (oh yeah, that will make his day, who needs food when they can shake your hand) write Mattel and demand they hire a Mandarin speaking American to accompany an American quality control inspector to spot check the factories so our children won't be potentially poisoned (talk about penny wise, pound foolish by Mattel). Get enough people to write and maybe Mattel will pay attention.
Mikey NTH, my point is that an article in a magazine with 60,000 readers is not worth wasting time and effort over. Far better to pay attention to the recent Chinese party conference wherein the last of the Liberal, reformist Shanghai faction has been pretty much purged, replaced by hardliners. Wen Jiabao, the PM whom I had some hopes for, seems to be seriously undercut. If you recall (which of course you don't) Wen was Zhao Ziyangs right hand man until Zhao was purged for supporting the students in Tiananmen prior to the massacre in 1989. What is your thoughts about this? None I am sure, since you equate the scribblings of a little jerk in a magazine with 60,000 subscribers to be of more import than the sudden recent lurch to darkness in the most populous country in the world. One thousand postings about that article. If I recall a mere dozen in the TNR article about this issue. Way to stay informed dude. And how many articles here about that?
Posted by: oaxaca at December 05, 2007 12:34 PM (ALRl0)
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oaxaca,
Agreed on just about all of your points in this comment. However, the issue many, including me, have with your previous postings is that you've conflated issues that have nothing to do with each other.
The point to this TNR/FF/STB issue is not whether or not TNR is a 'small mag' that has 'limited resources', but has done lots of good stuff (and still does). The point is the STB stories were fabricated, Foer obfuscated and stalled, then Foer came out with a 14-page mealy-mouthed apology that contained NO apology. STB/FF/TNR violated basic journalistic ethics with the printing of the first Diarist story. Compounded their mistake with two more stories. Then, FF put up a huge show of "re-reporting" previously "thoroughly fact-checked" stories. Then absolutely and abysmally failed to take responsibility for that failure.
I have no problem with TNR continuing to be produced...I have a HUGE problem with FF being at the helm.
I applaud you and your service to the downtrodden. I anguish along with you on the suffering of innocents. BUT, your experiences/exploits are NOT the point of THIS discussion. Pointing to instances of "bad behaviour" and equating them to completely different instances of "bad behaviour" does not wash. If you want to discuss what you do and have seen...then set up your own blog and do first-hand reporting from Oaxaca, MX (or wherever you happen to be doing your good works). If you don't have internet access/electricity/etc., then find a way to get your info to someone that does! Put your apples there and talk about the oranges here and elsewhere.
Blowing your own horn in your comments tends to bring people's hackles up. I don't work in the 3rd World...but, just to let you know some of my "good deeds", here's the toot: I have a full time job, a debilitating disease, and, yet, I volunteer hundreds of hours each year doing what I can for people with that same disease.
Regards
Posted by: Mark at December 05, 2007 12:44 PM (4od5C)
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The issue at hand is TNR's defamation of America's soldiers. What good things Oaxaca has or hasn't done are utterly irrelevant. Also irrelevant is whether there are worse things going on around the world. The point is that TNR published those lies, and then obfuscated and stonewalled in defense of those lies. To paraphrase a very old comment, "it's not the crime, it's the cover-up."
Posted by: pst314 at December 05, 2007 12:59 PM (OA547)
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Mark, thank you for an excellent posting. I suppose I should try to separate the wheat (you, nichevo, from the chaff: CCG). As a longtime reader of TNR I got disgusted by the well over 1000 posts by people who only know TNR from this, labelling TNR readers as cocoon dwelling idiots.
My point is that running over dogs, mocking a woman, or playing with body parts (fabricated or otherwise) does not rise to the level of horror worth commenting on, certainly not to this extent. I mention my own experiences to state the actions are bfd. The actions themselves, true or not, are truly small potatoes. That soldier who raped the iraqi girl and killed her family (which in no way reflects on anyone else but him) is a story conversely I wish had been made up, same with Abu Ghraib. But those were not made up, is it really so hard to imagine a non military guy like Foer falling for Beuchamp's? As I said I think Foer messed up. Should he be fired, that is up to CanWest. As a subscriber I mostly stick around for the threads (which can be very funny).
Today there is an excellent article about Chavez. One poster, emigdio, lives there and has an excellent blog. http://caracaschronicles.blogspot.com/ with a birds eye view there. In it he labels Chavez a fat man in a palace. His blog places his own life (albeit only in a minor fashion) in jeopardy. Without TNR I would not have known of this blog, and certainly not from a website like this one.
And I do hope the STB story (the first) about the Iraqi boy whose toungue was cut out because he fraternized with Americans was fabricated. Nobody though questioned that story, or said that was impossible, because sadly that is all too believable. When I read that I was filled with both determination (we have to defeat those bastards who would do such a thing) with dread (how can you defeat them if they come from a society where that is accepted?) so I don't think TNR violated any ethics when they published that story (and even you would have to admit it would be pretty damn horrific and damn difficult to have to verity that one). Can you elaborate how that first story violated ethics?
Posted by: oaxaca at December 05, 2007 01:28 PM (ALRl0)
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pst314. sure, why should anyones personal experience come into play on whether or not someone elses recollections are valid? As I have said one hundred times, Foer most likely got hosed by a soldier, who is presently still actively serving in Iraq. What freaking cover up exists? Did Foer shut down the comments section? Did he issue a "no Comment" to the story? First people said STB was not a real soldier, Foer provided the real soldiers name, then people said the soldier was lying, and now Foer says he can not verify the story absolutely. What coverup?
Foers crime? Trusting the veracity of a uniformed American soldier in wartime. Or has every American soldier who has talked about wartime misdeeds lied? Or should we ignore every allegation of misdeeds unless there is video evidence?
And what of STB? Why has he not been dishonorably discharged considering what you call his crime (defaming his fellow soldiers). Could it be the Military considers the episode small potatoes and not worth the aggravation?
I am sorry, but I take the Military's own response to STB to hold a hell of a lot more worth than anything anyone here screeds about.
Yes, I am a terrible person agreeing with the military and not some hacks whose contribution to the betterment of the world is to post blogs.
Or is the Military wrong in its response to STB?
No, wait, TNR was wrong to trust a soldier whom they had no reason to believe would lie, but the US Military is right to continue to trust a soldier who has been shown to be a liar? How do you knuckleheads square that? I square it because I agree with the military that this is no b.f.d.
Can anyone refute my question?
Posted by: oaxaca at December 05, 2007 02:40 PM (ALRl0)
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STB was busted in rank as a result of his actions. The military did not discharge him because lying to civilian media is not a felony offense (lying on sworn statements would be be).
Foer has covered up, and continues to cover-up the ID of everyone they say supported their case, military and civilian. He has covered up testimony for people that is the opposite of what he would like to hear.
He has not been an honest broker at all during this debacle.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at December 05, 2007 02:49 PM (vxbTC)
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yeah, busted in rank one grade, which can happen for a whole host of offenses. Yet he still serves in Iraq. For what its worth, I agree he should be busted, for nothing if not making fun (allegedly) of a crippled woman and then going public with it. Definitely worthy of an ass whipping. Personally, I wouldn't want him in my unit, but the Military knows what they are doing, and there must be a reason they didn't ship his ass stateside. The military continues to trust him with the lives of his fellow soldiers, so they must see in him much more than I do. Again, this is why I came to the conclusion this is just no b.f.d. And if the other soldiers in his unit felt all that defamed I imagine the military would have transferred his ass because his getting "accidently" left behind after a patrol would be all too likely. Again, I imagine his fellow soldiers also consider it to be no b.f.d. I am sure they give him shit, but he deserves that.
When STB and his fellow soldiers are out of Iraq and discharged from the military, when there exists no threat from any higher ups (I sure as hell wouldn't admit to being part of anything that is alleged) then TNR had damn well better come up with an honest accounting of this. If not then demand Foers head. What the world can't wait six months (or however long) Something tells me you won't forget to remind TNR.
Posted by: oaxaca at December 05, 2007 03:19 PM (ALRl0)
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STB is out of Iraq, and has been for weeks. The picture of he and his wife at the Washington Post in Kurtz's article was taken during his homecoming.
Frankly, what the military thinks of him once they found his stories to be without merit according to their formal investigation is not my primary area of concern; my area of concern is, and has been for a while, whether or not Franklin Foer and the editors of The New Republic have given an open and honest accounting of their role in reporting and re-reporting this story.
That answer, to the best I can determine, is no.
We know for a fact that in early August TNR editor Jason Zengerle was told by a major in Kuwait that the burned woman story was an urban legend or myth. Foer is yet to mention this, or any other claims that contradict his preferred narrative, including those by one of his own now named experts.
Foer has refused to release the names of the civilian experts that he claims support his version of events. There is no logical reason to refuse to provide this information if he is conducting an honest investigation.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at December 05, 2007 04:17 PM (vxbTC)
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CY, at least I gotta give you kudos for answering without the invective (which frankly annoyed the hell out of me) of many of the posters on the fog of war thread. As I said before, I don't take everything TNR says at face value, I myself caught them a number of times in mistakes (mostly related to the political state in China, names mistaken or dates wrong, etc.). There was no thousands of postings full of flaming invective demanding anyones head then, and I dare say that issue is of more import to America's future then STB will ever be.
You seem to forget there were 3 stories by STB, the first one (the hook) was about the boy I mentioned above. The second (dogs of war) or (the line) was about how packs of dogs feasted on the dead bodies dumped by the side of the road, and how people were afraid lest they be boobytrapped to move them. Was that a line? I don't know, it was certainly plausible. Then came the sinker, the 3rd story. By that time, Foer made the all too human mistake of trusting STB, and when the shit storm came circled the wagons. As a long time reader I had seen the story played out to death and then some, it stopped holding interest for me after Jonah Goldberg dissected the issue months ago on "what's your problem."
The essential difference between you and I (and given the intelligence of your answer, which addresses my points) is that you believe this is a firing offense. I don't for the same reason I don't think Katheryn Lopez should be fired, their fundamental flaw was in trusting people whom did not deserve to be trusted. Beyond that, it is not my call since I don't own either NRO or TNR. At most, as a subscriber I can cancel my subscription to make my displeasure known. I won't because to me TNR is like a stable of fine horses, but once in a while you gotta expect to step in some horseshit. I also suppose I feel too much sympathy for some people, and feel uncomfortable calling for people's heads. If you think Foer should be fired for breaching of journalistic ethics, I have no argument with you. If you think he should be fired because he allowed a posting of a political position with which you disagree with, which has apparently been shown to be fabricated (or even not) then of course I have an argument with you. Ugly truth is superior to pretty lies, but we must be careful in our search for ugly truths we don't produce ugly lies. From your responses I think it is the former, from a lot of the flaming posters on the fog of war thread, I think it is the latter. As I said before, I have to separate the wheat from the chaff better.
Posted by: oaxaca at December 05, 2007 05:07 PM (ALRl0)
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oaxaca,
You are fixating on the wrong villain at his point in the story. STB is not the issue. I agree with you that the military has handled him. I believe he is back in Germany now and not in Iraq. Anyone with more solid knowledge, please correct. The problem is with FF. As soon as he heard of the questions raised or, at the very least, found out about the change in venue for the 'melted woman', he should have conditionally retracted all of STB's stories. Not doing so damaged himself (Foer) and TNR as a whole. The STB issue is done and the question now is how Foer (TNR) handled the questions raised about the stories and the imbedded slandering of troops.
The ethical lapse that is most glaring for the first story is: STB's wife (maybe girlfriend at the time) fact-checked that article. That is a gross violation of “conflict of interest”. If you check JM Hanes’ and Guy Montag’s comments above, you will see more examples of Foer’s ‘desire’ (my word) for the stories to be true and how that is also significant issue. If you want more, then read the 14 pages of drivel Foer put out as conditional apology/retraction.
My profession is in auditing. As such, I cannot perform my duties if I have an independence issue. For example, if I own stock in a company I’m scheduled to audit, I can’t do the audit. If Foer still wanted to print the stories his best option was to have the fact-checking done by an outsider. If he would have done that, I’m very positive at least the last two articles would never have seen the pages of TNR.
CY has already addressed the cover-up. I’ll simply add: four + months to provide a non-apology apology and conditional retraction? Compared to the NRO/Smith issue, Foer’s actions and words are ridiculously LAME.
I’ve read TNR in the past, but have never subscribed. I am neither a fan nor an enemy of the mags general contents. My concern is ethics.
As for wheat and chaff…please give CCG a break. I’m fairly positive his irritation was with your enumeration of deeds (holier than thou appearing stuff) and conflation of issues.
Posted by: Mark at December 05, 2007 05:14 PM (4od5C)
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good posting, I am pretty much out of the loop down here and it is rare to get chances to go online. Eh, I was irritated by the good day sir line, and then the begone troll. Thems is fighting words. Ha. It was pretty surprising though how the quality of the responses has shot way up. I was also very annoyed by a lot of the responses on the fog of war thread by non-subscribers demanding accountability for a magazine they never read, in the meantime stating that anyone who reads TNR is an idiot. Check a lot of it out and you will see what I mean.
Hey, I agree Foer f'up. They have only 60,000 subscribers so why expect that they would have such rigorous checking? Can they afford an outside auditor? I simply don't know. To be honest, you do the subscribers a favor by holding their feet to the fire if they make bad editorial decisions. If you are pissed off by TNR's moderate Liberal slant, well go elsewhere. If that (editorial accountability) is CY's intention, then he should be commended, if it is to play gotcha, you are wrong about this therefore you are wrong about x,y,z issue, then that too is nonsense.
One of my favorite things about TNR is "what is your problem" where Goldberg and Beinert discuss the issues civilly, respectfully, and often humorously. This issue has been devoid of all humor, and filled with too much anger.
I am not wedded to the idea that TNR is always right, or that I am. Not long ago I had the idea that a possible solution to the Darfur crisis is to arm and train the natives, a poster on the ground persuaded me that I was wrong, that the topography and the situation would only cause even more slaughter. TNR has fought long and hard for an end to the genocide in Darfur, a cause which I support. They are one of the few mainline groups that do this. As you can see I am also not afraid to commend good postings here when I see them.
Tdneely and Klfoster were regular posters on TNR, if they are gone they will be missed.
Posted by: oaxaca at December 05, 2007 07:07 PM (ALRl0)
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I’m fairly positive his irritation was with your enumeration of deeds (holier than thou appearing stuff) and conflation of issues.
Indeed.
They have only 60,000 subscribers so why expect that they would have such rigorous checking?
Confederate Yankee has one staff member: CY himself, also known as Bob. Yet he single-handedly found the truth of all of these claims. If he can do it, why can't TNR?
Posted by: C-C-G at December 05, 2007 08:12 PM (SoUge)
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"sure, why should anyones personal experience come into play on whether or not someone elses recollections are valid?"
People would like you more if you didn't try to use bombastic self-flattery to claim moral and intellectual authority and to change the subject. Whatever good works you may have done in third-world countries, they do not make you an expert on the facts of the Beauchamp affair, and so do not qualify you to dismiss so cavalierly and rudely everything that has been uncovered by CY and others (including some milbloggers.)
Have you actually *read* CY's series of posts on the Beauchamp affair? After he (with very little effort in terms of the resources a major news organization can muster) demolished Beauchamp's claims and credibility, TNR tried to discredit Beauchamp's critics and painted them as merely political partisans.
Posted by: pst314 at December 05, 2007 10:09 PM (WjPRb)
59
"My point is that running over dogs, mocking a woman, or playing with body parts (fabricated or otherwise) does not rise to the level of horror worth commenting on"
Really? Stories which defame our troops don't matter? Every unchallenged lie demoralizes American citizens (and troops!) and diminishes America's reputation around the world. I'd think that's reason enough to challege every lie. Or don't you care about the reputation of America's soldiers?
Posted by: pst314 at December 05, 2007 10:13 PM (WjPRb)
60
That is actually sort of what I was thinking of. It has been mentioned elsewhere - I believe I last saw it with one of the PajamasMedia guys. I think it was the "myth about fact checkers" post. Since I've never been in the magazine publishing business, I have no idea what sort of hold these publications have on their proposed stories. Whether or not they consider them to be sacrosanct until they get them into print, I don’t know. However, there are literally millions of potential fact checkers out here. Why not ask a few questions to a few of them for the plausibility of certain situations if you don’t have the expertise in house? They (FF/TNR) would have saved themselves a whole lot of trouble.
Posted by: Mark at December 05, 2007 10:23 PM (P8ylB)
61
Every unchallenged lie demoralizes American citizens (and troops!) and diminishes America's reputation around the world. I'd think that's reason enough to challege every lie.
Indeed, a very good reason, unless one is a rabid anti-American.
Another one can be described by paraphrasing C. S. Lewis: "Good reporting must exist, if for no other reason, because bad reporting needs to be answered."
Posted by: C-C-G at December 05, 2007 10:26 PM (SoUge)
62
"Every unchallenged lie demoralizes American citizens (and troops!) and diminishes America's reputation around the world. I'd think that's reason enough to challege every lie." Wow, that is one of the most week kneed things I have ever read. If someone lies about America you become demoralized? Grow a pair. I lived in China a long time, the lies I heard only emboldened me. In point of fact, I had a picture of the man who stood up to the tanks at Tiananmen on my wall (one of my little subversions). The only sad thing is no chinese ever recognized what it was
I can't even believe you can say that with anything approaching a straight face. You apparently know nothing about the outside world or America's standing in it if you think this nothing of a story can damage out position.
Challenge lies, certainly, but not out of cowardice or worry about what others think of us but because it is the right thing to do.
And do you think I care if anyone here likes me? I am honest and state my opinion, which is based on a lifetime of realworld experiences, unlike (I am certain CCG engorging himself on KFC believing his trite nonsense, believe I post therefore I am)
I will pay personally CCG's airfare to take a position in Iraq teaching in a local university, or other work. I can provide the names and numbers for him to do it. I doubt (am certain) he would never do it. I have the names and number because I wanted to go to Iraq, my wife threatening to leave me prevented it.
But one article from a magazine none of you read, well now, nothing is more important than that.
You should be ashamed of yourself if you think one lie could forever tarnish the American military (or even 10 million ones). The only thing that can tarnish them is their own actions.
Posted by: oaxaca at December 06, 2007 11:04 AM (ALRl0)
63
oaxaca,
Here is where you are wrong:
"You should be ashamed of yourself if you think one lie could forever tarnish the American military (or even 10 million ones). The only thing that can tarnish them is their own actions." (Sorry, I haven't figured out the block-quoting technique yet)
One lie turns into two lies which, in multiple turns, spawn millions of lies. I've been overseas twice in the last 4&1/2 years. Since I speak a bit of Italian and was in Italy, I watched their local news broadcasts, the BBC, and even some French crap in the summer of 2002. The coverage I saw there included such wonderful Italian takes as story titled "Bush - Assasino" (my spelling is probably off). I'm fully aware of the anti-American stand of most of Western Europe's 'news' organizations since I witnessed it first-hand.
This summer I traveled to Germany, Austria, and the Czech Republic. I also know a bit of German and their coverage still included Abu Ghraib and insinuated that ALL AMERICAN SOLDIERS participated and they did so UNDER ORDERS.
The Czech Republic was an oasis for me (and actually had really good beer - Budweiser and Pilsner Urquell...the Bud is much better there). I don't know very much Czech...please and thank you is about it. But, they also had subtitles for their broadcasts in English. Much better coverage and little slant than anywhere I've been in Western Europe.
Every single lie that denigrates the US or its troops not only should be challenged but MUST be challenged. What we are doing in Iraq and Afghanistan is not a war for conquest but a war for alliance. To accomplish (victory) this alliance, our troops must be portrayed as wonderful human beings that are able to deal out swift death to terrible human beings. The good news is the vast majority of them really are both things. However, pieces like STB and TNR have put out are more the norm.
It appears to me that for every single good story that is reported about our troops there are 50 negatives. Case in point: how many times did the Abu Ghraib story grace the cover of the NYT (50+)? How did they cover Lt. Michael P. Murphy's Posthumous Congressional Medal of Honor presentation? He happened to be from Long Island. I believe Long Island is in the NYT home range, is it not? Answer: it didn’t cover the presentation. It did have a pitifully small story a few days later that was buried, but even that took pressure from several quarters including Bill O’Reilly.
You ARE correct that we should be ashamed but not for the reason you state. We should be ashamed that we’ve allowed most of the US (and world) MSM to get away with sliming, lying, obfuscated, disclosing classified info, and generally denigrating this country and its military. I’m sorry TNR gets to be somewhat of a poster-child; I’d rather it was the NYT.
Posted by: Mark at December 06, 2007 12:11 PM (4od5C)
64
oaxaca - Your daily dose of moral superiority is amusing but tiring. If you had bothered to read all of CY's reporting on TNR's Beauchamp saga you will have noted that he raised serious issues with all three stories and not just the third. You raise the issue of fact checking. That became an issue because when TNR was questioned over the veracity of the stories they stridently claimed to have refactchecked 100% of the stories and attacked the questioners. That obviously turned out not to have been the case. You also raise questions about the military's handling of STB without what appears to be knowledge of the facts ot military procedures, much like Franklin Foer. Your credibility, like his, is shaky.
You state:
You should be ashamed of yourself if you think one lie could forever tarnish the American military (or even 10 million ones). The only thing that can tarnish them is their own actions.
Oaxaca, the problem with the left is that they keep repeating lies about the conduct of American soldiers until everyone believes they are actions. Fictional massacres, torture which didn't occur, Haditha, antiwar movies, and the like. If you know people in the military or have any patriotism, you must know how disturbing these innaccurate portrayals of the military are. The propaganda, by your comments you have shown you understand the value of propaganda, content of stories such as these to our enemies is tremendous. Your ridiculous challenge to show how this story affected anything is completely beside the point. Lies need to be challenged where they occur before they become accepted as fact. John Murtha and Harry Reid are two of the biggest liars out there and they carry a lot of weight.
You also insult our blog host by complaining that you would not have learned about blogs in Venezuela on this site, but did on TNR. I can't speak to the subjects CY covers, but he is only one person. Would you learn about all the sources for in-depth coverage, even on the ground coverage of the war on terror at TNR? I think not given that they have proven that they do not know how to fact check an article about Iraq themselves.
oaxaca, you are just a credibility challenged gasbag. Come back when you have had a chance to bone up one the facts of this debacle. You don't have them.
Posted by: daleyrocks at December 06, 2007 12:16 PM (0pZel)
65
"I can't even believe you can say that with anything approaching a straight face. You apparently know nothing about the outside world or America's standing in it if you think this nothing of a story can damage out position."
Know nothing? How about many years of education in foreign languages and history, followed by years of browsing French and German periodicals, both print and online? I've seen what use some of those European news organizations make of these slanders. And I have endured numerous arrogant lectures on morality from Europeans who were indoctrinated on this propaganda.
So please save your "I can't believe". Your ignorance (or is it dishonesty?) is only exceeded by your arrogance.
"But one article from a magazine none of you read"
What makes you think that? Some of us DO read it (I, for one, subscribed for many years) and many of us followed the blog links to read everything that TNR published on Beauchamp. But of course you know the postings and comments on this blog that this is true, so why are you again uttering a falsehood?
"The only thing that can tarnish them is their own actions."
Then I guess there is no need for libel laws? No need to challenge lies? If you really believe that lies don't need to be challenged in order to protect reputations, then you are clinically stupid, but I suspect that you don't really believe this and are just lying. An experiment: Let's all start spreading vicious, defamatory stories about oaxaca and see whether he objects.
"Challenge lies, certainly, but not out of cowardice"
Who are you calling a coward, you trollish clown?
As for your supposed respect for the American military, you sure don't sound like it. I suspect that it is entirely a sham intended to deceive the readers of this blog.
Posted by: pst314 at December 06, 2007 01:19 PM (OA547)
66
"I want to mention that I have spent over 10 years living and working in the third world"
Everything oaxaca says boils down to insult and self-aggandizement. I've know people who did aid work in the third world, and none of them behaved like a bombastic bully. I have met such clowns, though, and they tended to be adolescents, losers, and partisan hacks. Adults who actually do something useful generally don't behave like that. Some of my military friends refer to oaxaca's style of personal interaction as "I've got the biggest dick in the house, so kneel down and worship me." Such an attitude doesn't tend to garner much respect from actual men.
Posted by: pst314 at December 06, 2007 01:33 PM (OA547)
67
the issue, again, is this is a nothing of a story from a magazine that has 60,000 subscribers, which would have been forgotten about long ago if not constantly talked about.
Where is the real reporting about the ongoing negotiations between the Chinese, Iranians, and North Koreans wherein the Iranians are buying the nuclear information from the North Koreans. Why are there no articles about the busloads of Iranian "businessmen" who land in Beijing and are taken to North Korea? Doesn't anybody find it suspicious that around the time that Sinopec signed the largest natural gas deal with Iran the Iranians stopped their nuclear program. hmmm...
No, we are to believe the Iranians stopped their nuclear program out of the goodness of their hearts, when instead the Chinese simply said "why risk invasion, sell us gas cheap and we will let you deal with the North Koreans?"
Now the US has an egg on their face when the NIE was published because we touted the Iranians own non-existent program. The Iranians ain't stupid, why spend the time and money on research when you can just buy it? Mark my words, in 2009 or 2010 the Iranians will have a nuke, North Korean built. But no, why should we investigate this. STB lied!
If you want you can read about this it is in the Daily Telegraph. They, at least, know what is important.
If the NYTimes or CBS news had put out the STB story then I agree challenge away, a vanity publication with 60,000 subscribers ain't worth the time, especially if you picked up and read something the lies in things like China Daily. You people are picking over a misquito bite when a goddamn tiger is bearing down on you.
So when a North Korean built, Iranian purchased, terrorist smuggled bomb goes off in the US and if I am in that city, my last thought won't be STB lied, but I goddamn knew it.
Posted by: oaxaca at December 06, 2007 01:33 PM (ALRl0)
68
pst you really are an sad. I reference my experiences in the rest of the world because they have taught me a thing or two about the world. You insult me because you yourself have done nothing. You have known people who did work, but you yourself have not done anything. I am sick of people whose idea of supporting the troops is to run their mouths, instead of either joining them, or going there to work.
Isn't is the least bit interesting that the email address for the Iranian Ambassador in North Korea is : MGANJIDOOST@IRANCHINA.ORG
Iranchina.org. hmmm...
Some people here give concise, intelligent answers. Others feel they must engage in insult when they are bested. I don't know pst, talking to you is like talking to a 4 year old, without the 4 year olds cuteness.
Be honest, do you know a godddamn thing about the China-Iran-North Korean situation? Can you even name (without looking up on google) the names of the principal players? Oh, no, that doesn't matter you rely on CY to tell you all about the world, having no information to contribute yourself.
Posted by: oaxaca at December 06, 2007 01:45 PM (ALRl0)
69
I would like to add again how superior the posting of nichevo is. He addressed the issue and got in some well timed digs at me.
Of course I am a pompous gasbag, this is the internet folks where our pompous gasbags can be set free, that doesn't mean I am wrong. Does anyone here really care about STB or TNR? No, for too many people this is just so much gotcha. You are wrong about this therefore I am right about everything. (I will give CY credit, I mean this is his job, and some of the other posters as well because they back up themselves with intelligent postings) Jonah Goldberg nailed this months ago, now it feels like it is just dancing on the grave. Foer was an idiot for even bringing it up again, calling a person on the same lie a thousandth time gets a little redundant don't you think?
I agree, challenge lies, but not at the expense of taking time to search for more important truths. There are things that are far more important, which get little press. Like last years Shanghai Cooperation Organization summit where the Chinese and Russian leaders pointedly welcomed Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad.
Posted by: oaxaca at December 06, 2007 02:04 PM (ALRl0)
70
oaxaca - This thread is not about China or Iran or North Korea or about your accomplishments as much as you would like to deflect the conversation in that direction.
The only point I see you consistently making is that it doen't matter that TNR published lies about the behavior of American soldiers because their circulation is only 60,000. I'm sorry, but that's not acceptable to me or to I believe a lot of the readers of this blog and many others. It's true there are others stories out there worth focusing on, but that is no excuse for ignoring this one.
One of your other consistent complaints seems to be that only paying subscribers should be able to register displeasure over TNR's journalistic malpractice. Grow up and welcome to the internet as you so nicely pointed out in your most recent comment. Your attempts to control the discussion fool nobody.
Posted by: daleyrocks at December 06, 2007 03:03 PM (0pZel)
71
All this time, and still not a shred of fact. You must be nearly crazy with futile exhaustion.
Posted by: oogabooga!!! at December 06, 2007 03:54 PM (zpJBl)
72
oaxaca,
daleyrocks has again said the pertinent point. And, according to your recent posts, I suppose I now am considered chaff in your eyes. (Personally, I don't mind being chaff...
You want to bring up Iran/NK/China connections here? In this thread? NO, those topics are not the subject material. You want CY to bring them up, fine. Ask him to put up a post or compose one yourself and submit it to him. Ask him nicely if he would post it for you. Do not be surprised if he 1) tells you to go hang because it is HIS blog, not yours OR 2) refuses to post it because you don't have proper documentation OR 3) puts it up with a HUGE disclaimer OR 4) puts it up in with massive edits AND the HUGE disclaimer OR 5) puts it up in total (with small disclaimer) OR 6) some other option I didn't think of on the fly.
Otherwise, stick to the subject matter at hand - journalistic ethics - honor - right&wrong - etc.
If you fail to do stick with whatever thread's subject matter in the future I, for one, will ignore your posts in the future. This is my last response directly to you unless you follow that code.
Buena suerte
Posted by: Mark at December 06, 2007 03:54 PM (4od5C)
73
PS:
CY, I hope I have not overstepped my bounds with the above...
Posted by: Mark at December 06, 2007 03:57 PM (4od5C)
74
Mark, you are absolutely right, it is not my blog and I was wrong to suggest that at this we have reached the point that we are basically dancing on Foers grave, that I should never disagree with anything anyone says here because that is just not acceptable, and that the punishment for disagreeing is banishment. OK, I consider myself banished.
One last thing, today in TNR they have a pro-Hillary piece called Hero-schmero, which has been universally panned by every subscriber. One poster tuvent08 said: I agree with the consensus position. This article is illogical, contrarian drivel. It perfectly captures the worst impulses of a magazine like Harper's - substance free, to clever by half nonsense. Some future suggestions: "How our country's addiction to oil is a good thing" "How the invasion of Iraq was actually executed competently and why we just don't realize it yet" "Thoughts on Bill Kristol: What if he's actually right about everything?" This is almost more Oniony than the Clinton camp's "Kindergarden" press release.
Disagee with it if you want, but the posters at TNR are a hell of lot more amusing and freethinking than you robots here. The sad thing I agree with you that Foer screwed up, but I don't agree strong enough. OK, go back to your hosanna chorus, secure in your convictions that you are never wrong, I have been banished by you, to which you all will gleefully say: good riddance, we are cold and frightened.
Posted by: oaxaca at December 06, 2007 06:57 PM (ALRl0)
75
Oaxaca, for me, a trip to Iraq would be the equivalent of a death sentence. You see, I am a class B hemophiliac. Going to any third world country is essentially suicide for one in my position.
I suggest you spend some time in soul-searching.
Posted by: C-C-G at December 06, 2007 08:02 PM (SoUge)
76
CCG - Did you notice that for the morally superior posture oaxaca keeps assuming, he strangely can't bring himself to honestly describe the arguments or positions of others. Dishonesty is not a trait to be admired in people holding themselves out as models of humanity and humility to be emulated.
Personally, he sounds like he's related to someone at TNR the way he is defending them.
Posted by: daleyrocks at December 06, 2007 09:33 PM (0pZel)
77
I guess the view is distorted from the top of a self-made pedestal, Daley.
Posted by: C-C-G at December 06, 2007 09:48 PM (SoUge)
78
daley and CCG:
I submit, he does bring up good points. The problem with them is that they aren't the subject of the thread. Argue/discuss as you wish, but stay within the thread is all I ask. This mental leapfrog and equating FF/TNR/STB's bad stuff by pointing to other bad stuff is nothing more than facile re-direction.
I have no problem with talking about such salient things as "China is on its way to destroying the (fill in the blank)" or "NK/IRAN/China" nuke issues. Just not within completely unrelated posts. Why can he not understand that?
Adressing his issue of "small potatos"... we've got to start correcting this stuff somewhere. I sure wish it could be the NYT or NBC/CBS/ABC or any other of the 'mainstream monster media'. Heck, I even have a few problems with FSN...very few, but still some issues.
Unfortunately for TNR, they were the ones to print the STB stuff...and then FF's drivel apolgia...which only furthered his error. I wonder if oaxaca even read the 14 pages? I did and upwards of the first 270 posts. And I actually feel a bit sorry for FF. All he did was complicate the problem for himself and TNR with that load of manure.
I would have considered cutting him some slack if he would have simply stated "sorry, we screwed up...we apologize to each and every member of the US military, past-present-and future...this will NOT happen again". With his 14 pages he nailed his own coffin shut.
Posted by: Mark at December 06, 2007 11:07 PM (P8ylB)
79
Mark, one also has to ask the question, if Oaxaca really doesn't care about Foer and Beauchamp and TNR, why is he spending so much time and effort in this particular thread? There are other threads here he could have commented on just as easily.
Methinks he doth protest his "disinterest" far too loudly.
Posted by: C-C-G at December 07, 2007 12:02 AM (SoUge)
80
Mark and CCG - I agree oaxaca is spending a lot of time on a throw away matter for him given the weightier concerns of the world and his mission to save it that are pressing in on him. He also seems to be a very avid reader of TNR, being able to cite its contents in his comments. Perhaps I was mistaken in my comment about him being related to someone who works there. Maybe he works there himself.
Posted by: daleyrocks at December 07, 2007 12:09 AM (0pZel)
81
Good points, CCG and daleyrocks. Possibly a bit snarky, but well deserved. After re-reading his recent stuff again, I find his OT info to be nothing but mis-direction and attempts at subject changing. I don't have a problem with the subject matter he proposes...just not in this thread. Maybe he's just a "high-quality spammer", I don't know. For the life of me, I thought several of us had very gently pointed out what was bothering us in his posts...others, not so gently. Is this what debate and discussion has come to? It makes me weep for the good old days of Lincoln-Douglas in high-school. *realization* That's it!!! He's running a "squirrel case"...circular argument with repetitive info. Man, am I out of practice or what!? (shakes head sadly)
Posted by: Mark at December 07, 2007 04:44 AM (P8ylB)
82
Mark, Daley, what Oaxaca was attempting to do is perform what passes for thought among lefties. It was first explained by the one and only Thomas Sowell... I'll paraphrase as best I can.
Modern leftism/liberalism is based on the concept of "Good People." Basically, the leftymedia has convinced a significant segment of the population that if you want to be a Good Person, you must believe what other Good People believe... and the Good People are always folks like Algore, Barbra, Hanoi Jane, etc. It's actually an old advertising trick, like putting athletes on cereal boxes to give the idea that if you eat the cereal you'll immediately become a star athlete.
Anyway, Oaxaca was probably posting all that blather to establish his credentials as a Good Person, after which he no doubt expected us to agree with him--since whatever a Good Person says simply has to be right in the lefty worldview. He may even have successfully used that trick on TNR's forum, Kos, or DU.
What he failed to reckon with is that conservatives are interested in facts, not fame. And we're not so shallow as to believe that just because someone does Good Things in third-world countries he's automatically an expert on everything... assuming that Oaxaca actually did those things in those countries; for all we truly know he could be a pimple-faced 13-year-old typing on his computer in his room.
I suspect if he reads this he'll come back with a whining diatribe against me, but I can handle it.
Posted by: C-C-G at December 07, 2007 10:02 AM (SoUge)
83
Agreed. The universal curse/blessing of the internet is..."implied anonymity".
Personally, if anyone has a beef about my opinions or statements, they can contact me directly. The information is available...
right there ↓
Posted by: Mark at December 07, 2007 11:55 AM (4od5C)
84
Considering how dishonest oaxaca continues to be, using ad hominem attacks, changing the subject, and so on, why should we believe anything he says about himself?
Posted by: pst314 at December 10, 2007 01:02 PM (OA547)
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December 03, 2007
But They're Only The Rabble: Ignore Them
Franklin Foer may be telling the truth when he said "no one at TNR has asked him to" resign. Because smart employees rarely tell their bosses such things, of course.
Commenters to his 14-page non-apology were a
bit less restrained:
Posted by Chris Christner
7 of 420 | warn tnr | respond
You broke every rule of journalism and in the process slandered our military. At the very least you owe them an apology. If you had a shred of integrity and respect for the reputation of TNR, you'd also submit your resignation. It's obvious that you waited until the last possible moment to retract Beauchamp's stories, only doing so now because the new TNR book on Election 08's just come out. However, regardless of your blame-the-messenger retraction, the Beauchamp affair is still going to hammer your book's credibility along with that of TNR. As it should.
...
Posted by Hey, Pierre Salinger!
25 of 420 | warn tnr | respond
Franklin Foer, your petulant whine about the bad ol' Army and the stressed-out Beauchamp are less than believable. You were had because you WANTED to be had. Get over your self-pity and resign, already.
...
Posted by slp
32 of 420 | warn tnr | respond
Franklin: It is time to resign.
...
Posted by tdneeley
56 of 420 | warn tnr | respond
I always suspected Beauchamp's stories were crap. I've already canceled my subscription, after 13 or 14 years. Anyone involved in this debacle should do the honorable thing and resign. You people have very nearly destroyed a great magazine, one I enjoyed reading back when Foer and company were going to keggers and sleeping through Journalism 101. What a disgrace. Goodbye.
...
Posted by redherkey
60 of 420 | warn tnr | respond
Franklin, While your efforts to explain this certainly must have taken considerable energy, it does not address the fundamental issue which allowed this myth to be published: the lack of management controls enforcing organizational policy and adherence to both company and journalistic codes of conduct. As a competent manager would explain, the outcome you experienced is what is expected when organizational controls are ignored. This is the default condition to which management is empowered to correct. We do not have spouses or even parties related through means other than the job conducting reviews, fact-checking, etc. We do not verify anonymous sources with other anonymous ones. In fact, anonymous sources are never primary sources except in shady journalism due to the inherent uncontrolled abuse it facilitates. We maintain higher tests when accusations are more significant. Having attempted to effect an outcome that damages national security and disparages the U.S. Army, a very high standard is required. Instead, TNR's efforts would not suffice at a junior high school newspaper. This is a management failure, not a complex trickery of a confused young man. Given the track record of TNR, this is also an institutional failure. TNR simply does not have controls sufficient to produce credible, objective non-fiction publications and does not appear capable of self-reform. Should you and the editorial staff and senior management of the publication seek to provide TNR with an opportunity to continue, resignation is the only appropriate action. CanWest should either clean house and refocus this damaged brand or terminate it and write it off as a lesson in corporate governance and oversight.
...
Posted by Cody B
68 of 420 | warn tnr | respond
"The Plank The smartest blog on the web. Period." No dude, you were busted by many, many blogs who are much smarter than you and don't have an agenda. You should resign right after you apologize to our brave men and women serving our country.
...
Posted by FOER-THE-LIER
75 of 420 | warn tnr | respond
FOER: Well, it depends on what the word "LIE" means!! Can you imagine how much time this little dweeb has spent the last month trying to write this? How NIXONIAN. Tricky Dick never weaseled around more. Notice how the libs, when caught in their own morass slither around just like Tricky Dick. Foer - just remember when people look at you now - they are thinking - "There goes that guy that swallowed harder and longer than Monica ever did." Like one other poster said, it couldn't happen to a nicer, more arrogant bastardi. RESIGN NOW.
...
Posted by C. Pruett
78 of 420 | warn tnr | respond
To borrow and paraphrase: Let us not assassinate these lads further, Mr. Foer You have done enough. Have you no sense of decency sir, at long last? Have you left no sense of decency? Obfuscatory tripe. Check. Refusal to accept responsibility. Check. Failure to sincerely apologize. Check. Complete lack of integrity. Check. Mr. Foer, an honorable man would resign. Accordingly, I expect you to stay on.
...
Posted by klfoster
81 of 420 | warn tnr | respond
Foer suggests that the Army may be guilty of suppressing Beauchamp through intimidation, thereby holding out the slim hope for himself that one day he and Beauchamp will be cleared of all charges. Foer has not offered an apology. He is as misleading in this regard as the meandering Beauchamp story. The owners of The New Republic have a responsibility to their readers, the public and the Army to make management changes at the magazine to restore its credibility.
...
Posted by Gerry Shuller
91 of 420 | warn tnr | respond
Is there an ounce of integrity left at TNR? Of course, Foer and other have to go, but more importantly, the next issue of TRN must not only feature an abject apology, but have POSITIVE stories about the American military that is fighting Islamo-fascism in Iraq.
...
Posted by Cato the Elder
99 of 420 | warn tnr | respond
Now I see why it took your honest effort so many months to reach a conclusion: it must have taken at least a quarter to come up with and write 14 pages of self-serving garbage. Why is it that a magazine with a history of publishing fakes, lies, forgeries etc. continues to be duped by Q-list fabulists? Do you not learn from your mistakes? Why are the editors of TNR still employed? Take a tip from Howell Raines and go write about your dogs for Field & Stream. This episode shames Franklin Foer, CanWest and a once great magazine. In a better world Mr. Foer would open his stomach immediately after issuing a straightforward correction. Mr. Foer's demonstrated lack of honor precludes his taking that honorable step and Carthage must be destroyed.
...
Posted by Jim C
110 of 420 | warn tnr | respond
You all should be ashamed of yourselves. You slandered our military, lied to your readers about experts that supposedly corroberated Beauchamp's story, and now you have the nerve to pull the "hey, he pulled the wool over our eyes too" card? I hope canwest gets rid of every last one of you. Jim C
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Posted by fmfnavydoc
122 of 420 | warn tnr | respond
As a member of the military, your apology, Mr. Foer, isn't worth the damn paper it's written on. You and your magazine violated every rule of journalistic and even personal integrity by publishing Scott Thomas Beuachamp's tripe - you have become the latest poster child for "journalistic integrity" - right up there with Dan Rather, CNN and the others that have used the media to spew their vitriol against those that they see as being "inferior" or not holding the same viewpoint. 14 pages to tell the world "we screwed up" - that has to be a record, especially for a journalist. Your actions brought TNR to the level of a gossip mag, or better yet, to a level lower than that seen at a junior high school student paper. Mr. Foer, you need to do the following: 1. Say the following phrase, "I screwed up"... 2. Submit your resignation, effective immediately. 3. Find employment elsewhere - like a fast food restaurant.
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osted by Thom Walker
153 of 420 | warn tnr | respond
Agreed. Resign. Better yet, fold TNR. It's time she died, and newer breaths were heard.Even if - and it's a big IF - 75% of Beauchamp's stories turn out by some miracle to be true... or even 'fact-based'... it doesn't excuse this shoddy attempt at journalism, and it absolutely does not excuse this multi-page non-apology. (I can't remember the last time a public figure even offered a GENUINE apology, vs a "Gosh, I'm sorry if YOU were offended" snake-in-the-grass escape from self-ownership of an issue - and sadly, this article is lower than the average snake's belly.) Thank the great American military - by their amazing self-sacrifice, you're free to publish this tripe anytime you want. Just please, from now on, file it under pulp fiction. Better yet, don't bother.
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Posted by Richard
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This is absolute garbage. Come clean, Franklin, and then fall on your sword. Confession is good for the soul. Admit you made an egregious set of editing errors and compounded them by initially standing by your story, and then stonewalling for months. And then do the only honorable thing you've done since this started, and resign. Thank you, by the way, for the $6.00 check you sent, refunding the remainder of my subscription.
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Posted by Takekaze
168 of 420 | warn tnr | respond
When I read those "stories" the first time my reaction was "What the hell?" My brain was screaming "BS alarm!" Let me explain why. I'm not American, but I have served in my country's military for 8 years. I held a rank equivalent to either Staff Sergeant or Master Sergeant (I always mix them up). I was a tankie. When I read about M2 Brads running over dogs as if it was the easiset thing in the world, I was wondering how the hell one would achieve that. Agreed, we don't have Bradleys, but we do have APCs and I seriously doubt that even our best drivers can run over a dog like this (I know my driver can't do it). When I read about "Mandrake's Bride", my only conclusion was: this story is crap. I know that no NCO or officer would allow such behavior in the mess tent. I would bite off my soldiers' heads for something like that. I would make them regret such behavior. As for the pieces of skull on the head. Oh please, such stories come up all the time and they are usually never true. Oldest propaganda. Apart from that, any NCO or officer would stop it right away. In my eight years of service (four active, four in reserves) I had to deal with US troops a few times. They were usually Marines. And, judging from those men and women, I would, without hesitation, put my hand into the fire for their integrity and honor, because I know they would NEVER behave in the ways described in those ridiculous stories. Now, the way I see it, you, the editors, owe the US military and it's men and women an apology. I think you should fly to Iraq, travel from base to base and apologize to every soldier, every marine, every airman, every sailor, every tankie, every grunt, every pilot, every medic, every driver, every NCO, every officer you meet there and then thank them for their hard work in Iraq and A-stan and for protecting your right of slandering them... I mean, your right of free speech, oh those evil typos. You also owe the American public an apology for lying to them.
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G. Lutz
174 of 420 | warn tnr | respond
To me, the "re-reporting" and quasi retraction of these stories smack of the same mistakes made in the Killian documents debacle. The editors at TNR decided to print the Beauchamp stories with no serious regard to their veracity simply because they fit into their political milieu and it's narrow minded view of the war in Iraq, and the conduct of the American soldiers fighting that war. Further, your report and retraction of the stories, much like the Dan Rather retraction, appears to state that while the articles in question may not be accurate, you still stand by the basic premise of the stories themselves, thus exposing a base partisanship and lack of journalist integrity at TNR. I am disgusted and saddened by the half hearted retraction, and the utter lack of an apology to the men and women of the United States armed forces. TNR just confirmed all the horrible things it is accused of by the "right-wing" blogosphere. When reporting on weighty issues with such far reaching implications one must take extraordinary diligence to ascertain the veracity of any and all claims made. TNR obviously did not do this, as allowing the new wife of the author to fact check the pieces clearly shows. The lack of professionalism with which TNR has conducted itself throughout this lengthy affair is astounding. One can only hope that it leads to some major changes in personnel in your organization.
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Posted by Roy Mustang
175 of 420 | warn tnr | respond
Mr. Foer has proven that is not trustworthy enough to hold his current position. This 15 page intelluctually dishonest editoral only serves to highlight this fact. If TNR ever wants to regain the public's trust, it needs to start with the removal of Mr. Foer.
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Posted by JPLodine
227 of 420 | warn tnr | respond
For Chrissake, resign already.
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Posted by Shyron M. Beavers
238 of 420 | warn tnr | respond
As a veteran your I am infuriated that your obvious lies and pure hate for America and the POTUS, this yellow journalism put our fighting men in harms way and the support troops. Next time just say we lied, I'm sorry, and I resign!
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Posted by Steve
246 of 420 | warn tnr | respond
What a convoluted way of saying, "We lied to you." Remember when people used to be noble and just resign when they majorly screwed up? How can anyone ever believe another word printed by your magazine? It's time to clean house or close down.
That is just halfway into the comments section, but I got tired of cutting and pasting. There were also quite a few comments from former
TNR subscribers—and future former
TNR subscribers—in the comments, but I didn't attempt an accounting.
Ultimately, it will be Canwest that does that... via advertiser feedback, of course. In the end, I'll be surprised if Mr. Foer's wild ride won't end up costing Canwest millions.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
10:49 PM
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1
Very interesting comments from the TNR readers and subscribers. I continue to wonder, however, if even this kind of a reaction will have an impact on Foer and TNR.
I can't help noting that many on the liberal side of the blogosphere are marshalling a defense of TNR. For example, The Atlantic magazine and a couple of their bloggers have taken up a full-throated defense of TNR, mostly via attacks on NRO. Their most immature little blogger, Matthew Yglesias has written a particularly nasty piece of bile, including this sentence: "To me, though, it seems like rank hypocrisy for NRO to hold a particular writer out to dry like this -- Smith was just working to the long-established NRO standards." Needless to say, he has other nasty things to add.
And of course the blogosphere's own crazy old aunt in the attic, Andrew Sullivan, has generated at least ten separate posts on the emerging NRO/Smith story over the past couple of days, which he parses in a manner to make TNR look like the ultimate paragon of disciplined and accurate reporting. The utter hypocrisy is staggering given the regularity with which these Atlantic bloggers publish rank falsehoods encased in the most inflammatory language possible, and almost never ever provide a correction when called to account. Sullivan has become notorious for his ability to write a faux "correction" in such a manner that 99.99% of the readers would have not the slightest idea that it was even supposed to represent a "correction."
I wonder how much longer David G. Bradley (and his National Journal Group, which I believe still owns The Atlantic) will keep in his employ such potential Franklin Foers and Stephen Glasses.
Posted by: Terry at December 03, 2007 11:52 PM (d/RyS)
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I actually read upwards of 270 of the posts to the TNR 'appology' last night. I tried to count the number of TNR supporters while discarding those that simply wanted the forum closed to non-subscribers.
Of those 270 posts, I counted about 4.5 supporters of TNR and FF. The .5 comes from one that excoriated FF but still thought TNR was a good rag (rag is my word).
There was one post in those first 270 comments that said something like "how Nixonian". What I find humorous about that comment is ..
...
wait for it
...
...
Nixion resigned.
Posted by: Mark at December 04, 2007 12:09 AM (P8ylB)
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Yes, I need to go to bed...
That should be:
Nixon resigned
Posted by: Mark at December 04, 2007 12:12 AM (P8ylB)
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Amongst his windy non-apology apology, Franklin Foer utters this line:
"I hadn't worked with Stephen Glass, who made up stories out of whole cloth, but I knew the lessons derived from that scandal."
No, Mr. Foer you haven't learned any of the lessons from l'affaire Glass. We could certainly school you for days on just how much you failed to absorb, but instead, let's just address the lengthy screed you have chosen to utter instead of the concise and up front apology that was required. We now turn to Gawker for this lesson:
Foer ought to have taken a page from the Chuck Lane School of Apologia. In 1998, when addressing TNR readers in the wake of the Stephen Glass scandal, the magazine's 500-word piece concluded simply: "We offer no excuses for any of this. Only our deepest apologies to all concerned."
What's that Franklin? No, I'm sorry, there will be no do-over for you. You had four and a half months, which is four months longer than any ethical editor would have taken when their primary interest is in protecting the credibility of their publication.
Having now affirmed your utter incompetence by way of this last act of trashing any viable brand name equity left in TNR, it wouldn't be unreasonable now to expect a CanWest operative to visit your office to deliver the final coup de grâce to your once promising career.
Posted by: Justacanuck at December 04, 2007 02:19 AM (hgxwr)
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Resign? No! A thousand times, no! This guy has a lot more to endure before the pain ends.
Posted by: Purple Avenger at December 04, 2007 09:06 AM (wWoFq)
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Hmmmm.
Andrew Sullivan.
Sometimes I wonder if he's on something stronger than alcohol.
Posted by: memomachine at December 04, 2007 11:06 AM (3pvQO)
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My guess is that Canwest is insisting that TNR keep the comments on the nonapology open in order to gauge the reaction. They are certainly getting an eyeful there as well as elsewhere around the blogosphere. As Bob says, it isn't over yet.
Posted by: daleyrocks at December 04, 2007 02:02 PM (0pZel)
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daleyrocks: I believe when TNR launched their new website/blog (recently), they simultaneously opened up comments to non-members. Perhaps done as an experiment, or perhaps to be more blog-like. Either way, Foer can't be too happy with the weight of opinion from his own subscribers, former subscribers, or soon-to-be former subscribers.
I especially enjoy those who tell of receiving their refund checks from TNR for the balance of their subscriptions. That's a nasty sting on TNR, cubed.
Posted by: Justacanuck at December 04, 2007 04:10 PM (hgxwr)
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December 02, 2007
Another Fabulist
This time, W. Thomas Smith, Jr., a former Marine writing at NRO blog The Tank.
On Friday, Smith
admitted that he:
- turned two AK-pattern rifles he witnessed in a tent city into "200-plus heavily armed Hezbollah militiamen," and then;
- turned a tip from an informant and men he saw at intersections with radios into "between 4,000 and 5,000 HezB gunmen deployed to the Christian areas of Beirut in an unsettling 'show of force,' positioning themselves at road intersections and other key points throughout the city."
Shortly after Smith posted his comments,
NRO editor Kathryn Jean Lopez posted a comment of her own,
stating in part:
Bottom line: NRO strives to bring you reliable analysis and reporting — whether in presenting articles, essays, or blog posts. Smith did commendable work in Lebanon earlier this year, as he does from S.C. where he is based, as he has done from Iraq, where he has been twice. But rereading some of the posts (see "The Tank" for more detail) and after doing a thorough investigation of some of the points made in some of those posts, I've come to the conclusion that NRO should have provided readers with more context and caveats in some posts from Lebanon this fall. And so I apologize to you, our readers.
It is good that Lopez and Smith admitted to these falsehoods without prompting, but I do not think that adding "context and caveats" to Smith's comments would have been enough to justify them.
At the very least, Smith has earned a suspension from
NRO, but considering the magnitude of his fabrications, termination seems warranted.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
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Since everyone else seems to want to conflate the two of these, I'll call for Smith's resignation immediately after Foer announces his.
Posted by: C-C-G at December 02, 2007 07:38 PM (4g5mr)
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Based on what I now know, I must respectfully disagree with you. Smith's problems appear to be of a piece with bad journalistic practices, e.g., accepting at face value what he was told by obviously interested parties, not objective eyewitnesses. I might add that this is not a failing unique to those new to blogging or reporting; there have been incidents too numerous to mention of experienced members of the mainstream media who have fallen into the same trap.
Nothing has been reported to date that indicates Smith simply made stuff up in the manner of Beauchamp. As the NRO editor has acknowledged, they should have done more checking on their own given the nature of some of the Smith reports. Also, I understand that Smith is not an employee of NRO, but has functioned as a freelancer. At some point, NRO will have to make a decision as to whether they will continue to accept his work or simply pass; I think they may need to do more review of his "reporting" before reaching that final decision.On the other hand, any work that they accept in the interim will obviously have to be thoroughly vetted.
I continue to feel that NRO has handled this whole matter in a manner that is light-years ahead of anything that NRO has done.
Posted by: Terry at December 02, 2007 07:41 PM (d/RyS)
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By the way, CY, Ms. Lopez has posted more about this, and I think it behooves you and everyone else who's talking about this to read it.
As editor, my position is mistakes are mistakes and they're all bad. But because of what I'm reading in other blogs, I feel the need to add: The Smith matter is not the Scott Thomas Beauchamp episode. For one thing, Beauchamp himself falsified the details of his story — claiming that he witnessed things in Iraq that he later claimed happened in Kuwait, etc. If Smith was too trusting of his sources, that is a journalistic faux pas of an entirely different sort. It does not, contrary to some bloggers’ claims, make him a fabulist.
Posted by: C-C-G at December 02, 2007 07:42 PM (4g5mr)
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The last sentence of my comment above should have closed with the three words, "TNR has done."
Posted by: Terry at December 02, 2007 07:43 PM (d/RyS)
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Seems to me this Smith guy did the same thing the AP did with the non existent Captain Jamil Hussein.
Posted by: Capitalist Infidel at December 02, 2007 08:04 PM (Lgw9b)
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I really don't get it. The NRO's Corner, and often articles in the non-blog portion of the site, are sometimes littered with economic errors or sleight of hand. A few minutes on google will give you a number of examples where one or another of their economic writers writes something that is at odds with the facts, or which would be contradicted if the facts were put into context.
(Not to blogwhore, but an example where I looked at Kudlow about a year ago is here. And there seems to be a real issue at the Corner with keeping nominal and real figures straight, which is elementary stuff.)
So the question... why is it a big deal that they got something wrong about Hezbullah fighters in Lebanon given what they regularly tell the reader when it comes to economics? Why is it permissible to provide bad information, whether by accident or on purpose, frequently and repeatedly in one area and not in another?
I note that convincing people that the economy behaves a certain way has much more profound implications on us here (it helps elect Presidents and Congress) than does the number of Hezbullah fighters living in tents in Lebanon. In terms of damage it can do, we're better off if the American public is misinformed about the latter rather than the former.
Posted by: cactus at December 02, 2007 09:05 PM (G1yhc)
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Cap.Inf.:
Captain Jamil Hussein, does in fact, exist.
CCG:
Smith is not the parallel to Foer in the National Review story; he's the parallel to Beauchamp, who unless I am mistaken, is no longer writing for The New Republic. Smith and Beauchamp are the authors, Foer and Lopez are the editors.
As such, Foer's resignation would instead parallel Kathryn Lopez's resignation.
Posted by: Anonymous at December 02, 2007 09:26 PM (nqwqy)
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Anony, then it's even simpler.
The whole kerfuffle is over Foer's lack of doing due diligence on Beauchamp's stories, so Smith should be safe, right?
And Lopez has already done better than Foer--i.e. no stonewalling--so she's done her job well, so she should be safe.
Posted by: C-C-G at December 02, 2007 09:35 PM (4g5mr)
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Captain Jamil Hussein exists... as much as any pseudonym does. There is no Iraqi police captain by that name that was an AP source. There never was.
I know "his" real name, and AP refuses to dispute that fact.
Let that never be in doubt.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at December 02, 2007 09:38 PM (HcgFD)
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What fabrications? So far as any of us know, every word Smith wrote was 100% true. He didn't see it all with his own eyes, but then he never actually said he did. His only mistake, if it was that, was not to state explicitly what he saw himself and what he learned from other sources. But unless and until we learn that the facts he reported didn't happen, there is no basis for accusing him of fabricating them.
Beauchamp, on the other hand, simply made stuff up, that never happened. He didn't see it himself, he didn't hear it from anyone; like Jayson Blair, he imagined it and wrote it.
Then there's the question of how much presumption of truth their respective claims deserved on first publication. It is simply not the case that both deserve equal treatment. Beauchamp's stories should have raised red flags with TNR editors, because he accused USAn soldiers of misbehaviour. Not only should that require serious fact checking because it's atypical, man bites dog, but also because it's slander of noble people who are entitled to a presumption of good character. Smith's stories, on the other hand, are about a criminal gang, who are already known to behave in just the way he said they had. They have no character to assassinate, and without any fact checking at all there's no real reason to suppose that the stories are not true.
There's no call for dismissal, or suspension, or even a reprimand. So far, the only thing that is called for is better writing in future. Of course if it ever turns out that the stories aren't true after all, then further action will be called for.
Posted by: Milhouse at December 02, 2007 10:04 PM (TuYrD)
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Here's an excerpt from the latest from Lopez:
I still think Smith is a well-intentioned reporter. We post him on a submission-by-submission basis and will continue to do so unless we have reason to decide otherwise. (And we are currently doing a more thorough review of all his work.)
(emphasis added by me)
Light-years ahead of Foer.
Posted by: C-C-G at December 02, 2007 10:30 PM (4g5mr)
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I think you do great work, CY, but I think you could lighten up on the terminator-in-chief stuff. If NRO decides to forgive Smith - who's a blogger, not a professional journalist, and who's directly addressed, admitted, and explained his faulty reporting - then who are you to decide he needs to lose his job? Personally, I think we can afford to give second chances to blog contributors and bloggers in general. I'd be inclined even to give Beauchamp another chance - once he's come clean.
I recall being the one who notified you when you had accidentally printed the name of a certain individual in these pages, when you had strongly committed yourself not to do so. It was an honest mistake, no doubt, and you quickly corrected it. It could have caused a lot of trouble for you or someone else, I guess. Should you have quit blogging over the error? Should I have demanded that you cease publishing until you had installed proofreading fail safes?
Posted by: CK MacLeod at December 02, 2007 11:39 PM (8aPVo)
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CK, if K-Lo wants to keep Smith as a freelancer after these revelations, that is indeed her call. We simply disagree on how severe this was. In either event, I'm please at the fact NRO is being transparent about what is going on. This is how real journalists should handle controversy surrounding stories.
I feel that it is deceptive to state for a fact, without any equivocation, that there are hundreds of heavily armed men based upon seeing precisely two weapons and hearing vague "everybody knows" rumors. I'm not disputing the possibility of that being true, but Smith had absolutely no reason to state it as a fact as he did. That sounds like more than a mistake, it sounds like an intent to deceive.
The Hezbollah incursion claim is worse. Based upon the word of a source or sources he won't name and his observation of men with radios at intersections, he announced the invasion of Beirut by terrorist forces the size of 2 U.S. Army brigades.
That is bit more serious than accidentally failing to redact a name I chose to keep quiet that had already cleared for release by his bosses.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at December 03, 2007 12:02 AM (HcgFD)
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Full disclosure time... I've had email dealings with Mr. Michael Ledeen, an NRO Corner contributor. Based on the outcome of that situation, in which Ms. Lopez was involved, though I never spoke to her directly, as well as the level of transparency we've seen from her regarding this situation, I am inclined to trust her handling of this from this point forward.
Now, if we'd seen this sort of response from Foer & Company, that whole kerfuffle might have turned out better for all involved.
Posted by: C-C-G at December 03, 2007 12:20 AM (4g5mr)
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CY,
Are you going to start a boycott of NRO advertisers similar to your impotent attempt toward TNR?
Posted by: dude at December 03, 2007 09:37 AM (MyDKI)
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dude,
You must have different standards of impotence that the rest of us. We already know that the call to contact advertisers concerning how TNR has handled the Beauchamp debacle has had effect... of course, fi you don't want to take my word for it, contact TNR and ask them yourself.
As for NRO, the editor and writer seem to be transparent in their handling of the situation, admitting both the fault and failures in Smiths work.
On what grounds, then, should one call for a boycott?
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at December 03, 2007 09:42 AM (vxbTC)
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Hmmmm.
Frankly this tepid mea culpa is insufficient.
Considering that one of THE biggest issues with reporting on the Middle East is the tendency for information sources there to simply make stuff up or vastly inflate the significance of events this is simply not good enough. I could write some metaphorical scenario but I'm not going to waste my time.
This is not acceptable by the NRO or the editors there. Just because they're conservative or Republican does not absolve them of **verifying** information provided by "trusted" sources.
Posted by: memomachine at December 03, 2007 10:24 AM (3pvQO)
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Transparent? Hardly.
NRO was warned that Smith was a liar 7 weeks ago and did nothing about it.
http://harpers.org/archive/2007/12/hbc-90001826
Posted by: dude at December 03, 2007 10:30 AM (MyDKI)
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If NRO had stonewalled for four months and declared that Smith's article was true ('he verified it himself!') and that NRO had fact-checked all that he wrote, and that all critics were horrible biased Chavez-loving Progressives, then yes, Lopez would deserve firing.
But NRO did no such thing. It checked, it found problems, it immediately came clean and apologized. That's called honest journalism - something the AP and NYT and even TNR could edify themselves with.
Posted by: Hank at December 03, 2007 10:47 AM (YeWPs)
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Dude:
I read the material at the Harper's link you provided. Sorry, but as with much of the material appearing in the Harper's blog, that e-mail correspondence is far, far from dispositive. I personally have had numerous items of correspondence with various addresses at NRO and related sub-blogs go without timely response, and in some cases, no response ever.
The NRO editor has addressed that issue in her latest blog update. She acknowledges that there have been problems in this area in the past and promises to establish a new mechanism to assure that questions/issues concerning problems and accuracy with items appearing at NRO are more rigorously and timely pursued.
Posted by: Terry at December 03, 2007 11:06 AM (AiJXe)
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Just because they're conservative or Republican does not absolve them of **verifying** information provided by "trusted" sources.
This is the only intelligent thing that I have ever seen posted by memomachine. I applaud his sudden growth as a human being, and I encourage its continuation.
Posted by: NovAnoM at December 03, 2007 03:38 PM (22/Qe)
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Cactus,
I read your post about the Kudlow piece. It's far from convincing. You provide no links to the stats that you use.
Now, on to the Smith/K-lo controversy. I don't think you can equate the Smith/K-lo thing and Beauchamp's lies. They're two entirely different situations. Now, I think that Smith's writings should be investigated further. For now though, I'm pleased with the way that K-lo has handled the situation. She's been far more up front than Foer and company.
Jim C
Posted by: Jim C at December 03, 2007 06:20 PM (ON55K)
23
Jim C,
I'll admit I forgot to put the link in when I first posted it... but I logged in a few hours later and posted an update. There's been a link in there for all but a few hours of the year the post has been up, in the same place its always been - in the second to the last sentence of the post following the words "The data is from". All the data came from the White House's Office of Management and Budget Table 1.3. Hopefully you'll find that convincing.
Posted by: cactus at December 03, 2007 07:25 PM (SV0Gb)
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Dude, even if, just for the sake of the argument, we grant your seven-week timeline, that is still less than half the time that it took Franklin Foer to post his mea culpa.
Methinks you'd best not depend on that talking point too much... it's like throwing a spotlight on both your double standards and the shoddy performance of Mr. Foer.
Posted by: C-C-G at December 03, 2007 08:46 PM (SoUge)
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American Mercenaries of Hezbollah are a lynch mob out to demonize Smith for having dared to play “cowboy” in Beirut and snatch a flag from the terrorists.
Posted by: Cannoneer No. 4 at December 03, 2007 09:39 PM (Xezx9)
26
Michelle Malkin:
And you can be sure this story will get tons more coverage on the left side of the blogosphere in the next few days than the TNR debacle has gotten over the last five months. The liberal media will prop up this case to blunt criticism of TNR’s handling of the Beauchamp scandal. They’ll ignore the fundamental difference in how the two magazines have handled their respective situations. They’ll ignore the slander and the cover-up at TNR, and comfort themselves with a blanket of false moral equivalence.
Hmmm... (a moment of silence as C-C-G scans the comments on this thread and the most recent TNR thread.)
Yep, she nailed it.
Posted by: C-C-G at December 03, 2007 10:27 PM (SoUge)
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A while back I posted a comment suggesting that going after TNR's advertisers was a bad idea. Someone, apparently smelling liberal, asked if I would feel the same way if the National Review made a similar error. Of course, I said; the principle is identical.
Now, interestingly enough, NRO apparently has made a similar error. And most of the comments here appear to be aimed not at punishing NRO in the same way TNR is being punished but at demonstrating that the two situations are not at all alike.
As Ben Franklin said, "So convenient a thing it is to be a reasonable creature, since it enables one to find or make a reason for everything one has a mind to do."
Posted by: David Crisp at December 04, 2007 01:38 AM (yyYDC)
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Terry,
I second your observation.
A few weeks ago HotAir.com and others made note of an Eve Fairbanks post at The Plank about Rush Limbaugh's "phoney soldiers" comments, which PV1 Beauchamp was a featured example, during the TNR blackout of anything Beauchamp. Several websites then noted that the term "Fairbanksing" was coined about her writing and in the Urban Dictionary. They all noted that they had just discovered the term.
Thing is, I coined the term and I had sent an e-mail to the tips address at Hot Air, along with messages to several other 'bloggers and writers like Ann Coulter, Laura Ingraham, Say Uncle, etc. Uncle and a few others posted it, but the others seem genuinely surprised when they "discover" it when writing about TNR.
All sorts of messages get lost in mailboxes bursting with messages and I don't see how the Smith/NRO issue is any different than my messages getting missed in the pile either.
BTW, I got no responses from NRO at all when I mailed their writers and editors about the fairbanksing thing. A friend of mine did get a response from an NRO writer when he wrote an observation to them about how the Beauchamp stories read like a fairbanksing. The response was something to the effect that the writer has known Ms. Fairbanks since she was a kid and her dad is a good guy, including a link to one of his essays.
Posted by: Guy Montag at December 04, 2007 06:33 AM (otDb3)
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Mr. Crisp, apparently you need to look into reading comprehension classes, or maybe elementary logic classes. Let's compare and contrast:
* TNR: Four and a half months and still no apology.
* NRO: If we take the absolute worst estimate (which may be incorrect) and assume that they were notified immediately after the first erroneous article, that's about seven weeks. Less than half the time.
* TNR: "It's all the Army's fault!" (paraphrasing Foer's 14-page non-apology)
* NRO: "We... should have done better and will."
In logic, your argument is called a "False Analogy."
Posted by: C-C-G at December 04, 2007 10:03 AM (SoUge)
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Hmmmm.
@ NovAnoM
This is the only intelligent thing that I have ever seen posted by memomachine. I applaud his sudden growth as a human being, and I encourage its continuation.
I see the nonsense meter has redlined again.
Posted by: memomachine at December 04, 2007 10:47 AM (3pvQO)
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Memo, just ignore NovAnoM... and consider his name while you do so.
Nova = new
Nom = name (i.e. nom de plume)
Now, do we all know anyone around here who might need a "new name"? Perhaps to replace another "new name" that had been banned?
Apparently he thinks we're all too stupid to realize his little trick.
Posted by: C-C-G at December 04, 2007 08:11 PM (SoUge)
Posted by: NovAnoM at December 05, 2007 11:38 AM (22/Qe)
33
--grabbing the wheel and steering this thread back to topic--
This might turn out to be a good thing for The Tank. Since Monday, there have been four different authors posting at the Tank, including Ms. Lopez, who posted not on the controversy but on a recent action in Iraq.
I haven't done a complete survey, but up until this whole kerfuffle broke, it was mostly Mr. Smith that was posting, so this is definitely good in that we're getting more and varied opinions posting on the Tank. No real disagreements like we get on the Corner yet--those are generally polite disagreements, and one of my favorite things about the Corner--but if they continue with the multiple contributors I can see where that could happen, and the Tank would be better for it.
So while Smith appears to have been silenced, and NRO had some egg on its face, it appears to be taking the opportunity to improve the Tank.
Would that TNR would take the same approach.
Posted by: C-C-G at December 05, 2007 08:23 PM (SoUge)
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