Confederate Yankee
June 23, 2008
Network News: If We Can't Lose The War, We'll Act Like It Doesn't Exist
Someone please tell CBS News chief foreign correspondent Lara Logan that her reaction is precisely the reaction her peers are shooting for:
"If I were to watch the news that you hear here in the United States, I would just blow my brains out because it would drive me nuts," Ms. Logan said.
Logan admits here a common complaint about the kind of news reported out of Iraq for the duration of the war, which is a macabre focus on blood-soaked sensationalism to the near exclusion of any other sort of story.
The newsworks (to perhaps coin a phrase) have
never been interesting in reporting
all the news, a fact that far predates television. News outlets—both state-controlled and private—have had a propaganda role throughout history. What may be unique among western news organizations is an often obvious
desire to present only one side of the story, even when they have the option of objectivity. They are guilty of providing propaganda just as state-run media often are, but are often blind to this, confusing the biased views they advocate with "truth."
This bias is often wrongly blamed upon the political leanings of a news outlets ownership. In days past (and perhaps in the
New York Times present), family control over an outlet may have strongly influenced the focus and bias of news organizations, but the modern reality of corporate news ownership, with organizations and divisions of news organizations being bought, sold, fragmented, consolidated, and always for sale, has rendered that argument laughably simplistic and out of date.
No, in the modern era where news is viewed by "suits" as another potential revenue stream and not a public service, "news" is pushed to be shallow infotainment providing immediate gratification. It is under this pressure-cooker environment that producers, editors and journalists are forced to drop even the pretense of objectivity and produce news quickly, cheaply and sensationally. This pressure brings personal biases out in sharp relief. Journalists, which have self-defined themselves time and again as being left-of-center in their world views and based in bias-reinforcing left-of-center urban enclaves, pushed by business-oriented ownership focused on ratings, have succumbed to their baser instincts, leading us into situation where news is reduced to little more than a veneer of political advocacy attempting to guide the public on how they should think about current events. From
global cooling global warming global cooling climate change, to views of conflicts, the proper application of diplomacy, and even the kind of lightbulbs we use, the media attempts to shape how we think by presenting the news they deem newsworthy from a perspective they deem correct.
Reality, however, does not have a leftward bias (neither does it have a rightward bias). Reality, like nature, seeks equilibrium... balance.
The reaction of the newsworks is simple when reality intrudes on the narrative: they dispute it, then they ignore it, and if they can no longer ignore it, they pretend that they never held a contrary position.
Presently, the falloff in news coverage in Iraq is the result of media attempting to ignore that the "quagmire in a failed state" narrative they've been promoting has been failing for over a year.
According to data compiled by Andrew Tyndall, a television consultant who monitors the three network evening newscasts, coverage of Iraq has been "massively scaled back this year." Almost halfway into 2008, the three newscasts have shown 181 weekday minutes of Iraq coverage, compared with 1,157 minutes for all of 2007. The "CBS Evening News" has devoted the fewest minutes to Iraq, 51, versus 55 minutes on ABC's "World News" and 74 minutes on "NBC Nightly News." (The average evening newscast is 22 minutes long.)
CBS News no longer stations a single full-time correspondent in Iraq, where some 150,000 United States troops are deployed.
I'm sure that psychologists have more precise terms to describe this collective behavior, but it comes down to this: the situation in Iraq is far better than the media have predicted it would be, and they aren't sure what to do. They don't want to report success, as success means having to explain why they've been wrong. They also morbidly hope—no doubt subconsciously—that things will once again turn worse, and vindicate their years of predicting doom and failure.
So coverage withers away. The war becomes a non-event, and thankfully, a Presidential campaign between a far left shape-shifter and an occasional Republican provides a welcome distraction.
The War in Iraq is plenty interesting to Americans. That has never faded in five years, and most would be heartened to hear what independent reporters have been indicating for months; that real progress has been made economically, diplomatically, and militarily.
But the newsworks doesn't want to admit they may have been wrong, and so their interests have now focused eslewhere. They don't want to undermine a political party that long ago made abandoning Iraq a key part of their party platform. They don't want to expose a shameful candidate who has made defeating his own military and abandoning a fledgling democracy his signature issue.
From their perspective, it is better to provide only the bad news, and when the bad news fails to live up to expectations, to ignore the uncomfortable.
Damn the news. Send in the clowns.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
09:18 AM
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1
War? What war? Obamamessiah has ended war. Did you not get the memo?
Posted by: twolaneflash at June 23, 2008 09:40 AM (05dZx)
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Shucks da war iz ova, den Iz gess it b ok
2 say Otay!!!
Posted by: Gator at June 23, 2008 10:21 AM (uaTZE)
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Your essay is right on. Basically, objective reporting doesn't pay very well in the mass media.Today, only the vettings of MSM stories by right wing bloggers are worth reading (most of the time), if truth is what you're after. This process takes time and is not immediately available to most people. But it does get out there, sooner or later. Yours and other like minded blogs are doing a great service to the US and the world. Yes you are.
Posted by: mytralman at June 23, 2008 10:37 AM (k+clE)
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"[news media] are as guilty of providing propaganda just as state-run media often are, but are often blind to this, confusing biased views they advocate with "truth."
Finally. I much prefer this description of news media's "bias." Comparing it to state-run propaganda is brilliant.
Posted by: DoorHold at June 23, 2008 10:41 AM (jFwF3)
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If the MSM is afraid to report on the stunning success in Iraq, then why is it that there's much less reporting on Iraq than in 2005, when levels of civil war violence were pretty much the same as they are now?
What seems to have actually happened was that the MSM bought the "surge is working" line, and has stuck to that mantra to the point of ignoring the horrors of Iraq. MSM coverage of Iraq started falling in early 2007, when the surge was causing more people to die. The MSM doesn't want to cover the news from Iraq, good or bad, and there's still a lot more bad news than "good."
Also, to be fair, the MSM lost interest in Iraq once the Democrats gave up on trying to end it. If the Democrats were not spineless wimps, the MSM would be covering the issue of how bad Iraq is, exactly, with "good news" and "bad news" a major focus. Since nobody really wants to pull out American troops (except most Americans and Iraqis, but who cares about them?), the MSM considers it a non-issue.
Posted by: T.B. at June 23, 2008 10:53 AM (JGJFa)
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The MSM's interest in Iraq peaked at the time of the surge, with dozens and dozens of stories of how "it won't work" and "the war is lost" (see Harry Reid). Once it became clear the surge was working, the Iraq stories began decreasing.
Now Iraq pops up only when there are U.S. casualties to report, or a particularly successful suicide bombing claims a number of lives. Even in these cases, the coverage is little more than a line or two on the evening news.
The reduced news coverage coincides with the shift from "Iraq = failure" to "Iraq = victory". Only none dare say the "V-word", as it might work to the disadvantage of the liberals who have hung their collective hats on defeat.
Posted by: Just Askin' at June 23, 2008 12:18 PM (esv00)
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You, T.B. help make the writer's point. It is not a "surge is working line." The surge is working. Iraqis are beginning to defend their own government, and they have handed Iran a stunning defeat.
Of course, the surge caused more people to die in 2007, because our forces were on the attack. Before the surge our enemies were causing people to die.
Victory is still in the future, but at least it is a possibility now. It is much better to be us than our enemies now. Before the surge the situation was reversed. We have shown ourselves to be the "strong horse" not Al Qaida.
Iraq was supposed to be the Democrats' main campaign issue, and when they were unable to engineer our defeat, their MSM handmaidens pretended it no longer existed.
Posted by: James at June 23, 2008 12:26 PM (hs7dr)
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Iraqis are beginning to defend their own government, and they have handed Iran a stunning defeat.
Ah, so you're not aware that Maliki is more pro-Iranian than Sadr and that we therefore helped Iran consolidate its influence in the area (with some help from Iran, which threw its weight behind its puppet Maliki against Sadr, who is less reliably pro-Iranian).
Of course, the surge caused more people to die in 2007, because our forces were on the attack. Before the surge our enemies were causing people to die.
But was it really worth all the extra Iraqis killed by the surge, just to help Iran gain influence in Iraq? And of course violence didn't fall to horrific 2005 levels due to the surge, but due to Sadr's cease-fire in late August 2007 (after which violence finally dropped after the surge failed to curb violence) and our appeasement of our former enemies in Anbar (proving once again that appeasement works).
Iraq was supposed to be the Democrats' main campaign issue, and when they were unable to engineer our defeat, their MSM handmaidens pretended it no longer existed.
Except that coverage of Iraq started falling in early 2007, when the surge was making Iraq much worse. So the chronology is wrong; the MSM was committed to pretending the surge was working, and has kept up the pretense no matter what the facts on the ground.
Posted by: T.B. at June 23, 2008 12:35 PM (JGJFa)
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The only problem is Iraq was supposed to be the 'golden ticket' for Democrat Marxists. Now that issue is becoming drill now and the no-drill Democrats, the fortunes has suffered a reversal.
The final straw is the sun, that is not cooperating with the global warming hoax script and has gone quiet. The best laid planes of Democrats often go awry.
Comrade Obaam is flailing about for a thought.
Posted by: bill-tb at June 23, 2008 12:58 PM (7evkT)
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T.B.
How many innocent Iraqis do you suppose would have died if the U.S. fled in defeat, as Reid, Obama, Kennedy, Murtha, and Pelosi had hoped?
Do you remember the MILLIONS of desperate So. Vietnamese boat people who died fleeing the communists. Or how about Khymr Rouge, Pol Pot nightmare in Cambodia?
You sound as bias, dis-loyal, and ignorant as the MSM tools. Sadr is living in Iran in exile, to be securely safe from Maliki's ISF. Where do you get your facts, from CBS or NBC or Daily Kos??
Posted by: bl at June 23, 2008 01:23 PM (dxCh+)
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"but due to Sadr's cease-fire in late August 2007"
And why did Sadr call for a cease-fire? Because he was getting his ass handed to him. Had we not have gone on the attack he would have continued pushing, and nothing would have changed.
Posted by: Matt at June 23, 2008 06:45 PM (91A6Z)
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Where do you get your facts, from CBS or NBC or Daily Kos??
More likely, straight from Baghdad Bob himself.
Posted by: C-C-G at June 23, 2008 06:49 PM (Hc4y8)
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They don't want to report success, as success means having to explain why they've been wrong. That's a valid point, but there's a far more urgent reason for the abandonment of reporting on Iraq.
That is, since the 2000 election the prevalent lefty mindset of the MSM has been looking for a weapon to attack the President, and in their coverage of the Iraq war they've found one, driving his public approval down to nearly Congressional lows.
The Iraq invasion was launched with the overwhelming approval of both houses of Congress, and essentially created a national task for the US of regime change and a stable society for the new government. The media, in its savagely biased coverage, immediately set to work painting the effort as a horrible mistake, a quagmire, the fault of neocons and particularly the Bush administration. The painting worked, and cynical Democrats embraced defeatism as their road to power - at the expense of that national task, and at the expense of long-term future hopes of a civilized Middle East.
No matter. The generation at the helm of the MSM hoped, and hopes, to relive the lefty seizure of Congress after Vietnam, and the only flaw in the scheme is the current trend of success of the national task of stabilizing Iraq. Publicize that as if we're actually succeeding, and all those military casualties were not in vain?
Hell, no! The public might be reminded that we were united in 2003 in undertaking the task, and that by perseverance and some damn smart military work we might be united again in success, after surviving the best efforts of Al Qaeda AND the bulldozers of public opinion in the MSM. And that's why the reporting is diminishing like an icecube in the Mojave - folks might actually express appreciation to the Bush administration for succeeding. And hand the defeatist Obama with a well-deserved drubbing in the coming election.
Can't have that, can we. No we can't.
Posted by: Micropotamus at June 23, 2008 08:00 PM (YeWPs)
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Very good analysis, Micropotamus.
May I just add that in their zeal to cover up the good news from Iraq, they are signing their own death warrants, because the "alternative media" (talk radio, blogs, and to some extent Fox News) are getting the word out themselves. The people then look to the MoveOnMedia for similar stories, and don't see them, thereby losing trust in the MoveOnMedia.
It's a vicious cycle, too... because as the MoveOnMedia sees trust eroding, they scramble even more for what they see as their core customers, the rabid lefties (most of those in the MoveOnMedia live in the same lefty bubble that Obama comes from), and as part of that scramble, they bury the Iraq success stories even deeper. Thus they lose the trust of their audience even more, and are completely clueless about why.
Posted by: C-C-G at June 23, 2008 08:56 PM (Hc4y8)
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“Ha ha hahaha! The Iraqis believed us then when we said American GIs just stood by, allowing everything in the Iraq National Museum to be looted. God, how our false reports infuriated them.
“Iraqis who might have welcomed the Americans, Iraqis who might have joined in the liberation, probably killed Americans instead, thanks to the rage we generated in that long-running story.
“Maybe we should set the record straight. Maybe we should apologize.”
Silence.
“Ha ha hahaha!”
The room fills with an echoing laughter.
Posted by: Neo at June 24, 2008 08:01 AM (Yozw9)
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And now we understand a fundamental weakness of both terrorists and liberals: if you simply persist, both will flee.
Both are asymmetric engagement creatures, which may explain some of their closeness in behavior and ideology. Terrorist use an asymmetric engagement because of disparities in projected force: they'd be slaughtered in a full front-on engagement, lacking the personnel and resources. Instead, they hit and run.
The mainstream media also suffers an incapacity to stay engaged, though in their case it appears to be a problem staying with reality that doesn't fit their narrative. Throw in a population that is likely suffering disproportional levels of ADD and you've got a propensity to overreact and misrepresent when the narrative is sympathetic, and to disappear when it's not.
The most curious thing is the symbiosis of the terrorist/journalist connection is damaged simply by not giving up, and instead showing rigid persistence and commitment. Once that's done, the terrorist loses his audience, communicated by his journalistic parasite which feeds upon the terrorist's activities. Lacking an audience and realizing committed, unrelenting opposition, the terrorist leaves.
To the dismay of the mainstream media, they may inadvertently be partially to thank for the success of the surge.
Posted by: redherkey at June 24, 2008 09:03 AM (kjqFg)
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There are millions of American military family members and veterans who are living the "Changes" going on in Iraq and elsewhere. W has brought "Change" with a capital C to the Middle East. America has planted a Tree of Liberty in The Garden of Eden, fertilized it with the blood of Patriots and tyrannts, and nurtured it to life despite the best efforts of enemies at home and abroad. Nothing succeeds like success, and the best revenge is to live well. I pray for the good life for free Iraquis, and for the humiliation of those who endeavoured to prevent it. This should be the start of a period of renewed pride for liberty-loving Americans, but I know the usual suspects will make every attempt to steal the joy.
Posted by: twolaneflash at June 24, 2008 10:23 AM (05dZx)
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CY, I hadn't actually noticed the decline in coverage since I don't watch TV news most days, but I trust the numbers you present are accurate. I think you were right on when you said that today's news is basically controlled by whatever the bosses think will sell. I feel that the rest of the post ignores this basic insight, however. The reason for the decline in coverage was simply that, after several years of war coverage, hearing about innocent people getting blown up -- still the most common daily news coming out of Iraq -- got boring and depressing. There's a term for this, "war fatigue," and I'm surprised it didn't happen sooner. Personally, I am pleased with the decline in violence in Iraq, and the apparently debilitating blows struck recently against both Sunni and Shiite opponents of the government. Correct me if I'm wrong, but from what I've read Maliki is going about confiscating guns from the citizenry (the guns that Saddam reportedly let them have), which should put a dent in the ability of insurgents to shoot government/US troops. Sadr's allies will likely be restricted or even barred from participating in government. The end result will probably be a semi-democratic regime that plays a balancing act between friendship with Iran and compliance with the USA. I'm not sure if that's what we went to Iraq to accomplish, but I suppose it's an improvement over Saddam. Most of the doctors left Iraq a couple of years ago; any word on whether they're coming back yet?
Posted by: Nate at June 24, 2008 11:10 AM (9KZ7w)
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And when I say Maliki "is going about" confiscating guns, I mean of course that he is asking other people to do it for him. (Iraqi or US troops?)
Posted by: Nate at June 24, 2008 11:11 AM (9KZ7w)
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Not since Benedict Arnold has someone so close to the height of power in American government invested so much in her defeat as the Democrats have in the present war in Iraq.
Posted by: twolaneflash at June 24, 2008 05:10 PM (05dZx)
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There may be an alternate explanation ..
Photos: Lara Logan Sex Scandal, "Laura" & Michael Ware Make the Tabs .. h/t
.. I gues they had other "affairs" [pun intended] to mind.
Posted by: Neo at June 27, 2008 08:56 AM (Yozw9)
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June 20, 2008
The Real "Dead-Enders"
It has been fascinating—and often more than a little infuriating—to watch the anti-Administration wing of the anti-war movement over the past year.
I'd like to first make that distinction clear: there are those who are against the concept of warfare to resolve conflicts, and those that are against
this war in specific because they have an acute loathing for their domestic political opposition, led by the current President. Make no mistake: so many of those who presently claim to be anti-war now would change their position on military intervention in an heartbeat if it meant intervening in Darfur or (_fill_in_the_blank_), if it satisfied
their political desires and could be painted as a "humanitarian" mission.
Those politically-motivated progressives that see anti-war sentiment as little more than a way to grab power via the ballot box have been most aggravating and occasionally amusing. They saw that an unpopular and protracted war was a way to market themselves to pick up seats in Congress in 2004 and 2006, and hoped perhaps they could ride anti-war sentiment to the White House in 2008.
They rallied behind an eloquent dove of a candidate who has repeatedly promised America to withdrawal U.S. forces on a rigid 16-month timetable, regardless of condition on the ground or the effect it would have on the Iraqi people or on the stability of the region.
That timetable was predicated upon conditions on the ground in Iraq in 2006, when violence was spiraling out of control, and it seemed all but assured that Iraq would become a failed state. Obviously, a lot has changed in the time since Barack Obama predicated his campaign on achieving defeat, and in the past year in particular.
Violence dropped as U.S. and Iraqi forces moved off-base and into the communities, and as the communities themselves began rejecting insurgents, terrorists, gangs, and rogue militias. The Iraqi Parliament, once almost as ineffective as our current Congress, has passed important reconciliation legislation, including an amnesty law that has already led to hundreds of captured insurgents,
including Associated Press personnel, to be set free.
Though leading Democrats like Harry Reid still insist that the war is lost, and the Speaker of the House insists that any progress must be due to Iran's moderating influence (and not the success of American and Iraqi forces in
killing those carrying out those "moderating Iranian influences"

it has become obvious to most of the world that the Iraqi experiment just might work and is well worth pursuing.
Austin Bay noted this morning that freshman Senator Hopeandchange may be trying to distance himself from his adopted policy of
purposeful defeat (h/t:
Instapundit):
Obama still touts his pull-out — sort of, occasionally, okay, less occasionally. Obama, like his cohort of supporters, is politically committed to defeat. Obama will now rely on rhetoric to assauge the DailyKos-crowd and obscure his shift on Iraq. He will change his position– and Samantha Power prepared the way several months ago in her ill-fated BBC interview this past spring. Obama thinks he can get away with it: he just backed out of public financing.
The NY Times on the deal before the vote. And Fox.
The real rubes in this election won’t be the rural Midwesterners Obama slandered, the ones who cling to their guns and religon. It will be the gray-haired profs with ponytails, clinging to their cannabis and liturgy of defeat.
When Obama quietly slinks aways from his signature issue and the anti-Bush wing of the anti-war movement loses their defeat-at-any-cost pledgemaster, what will become of the anti-war progressive fringe?
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
09:21 AM
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1
The Thunder Run has linked to this post in the - Web Reconnaissance for 06/20/2008 A short recon of what’s out there that might draw your attention, updated throughout the day...so check back often.
Posted by: David M at June 20, 2008 10:17 AM (gIAM9)
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That is the problem with putting all your hopes in "The One." The "progressives" are going to end up hating him as much as the conservatives will, I suspect.
Posted by: Grey Fox at June 20, 2008 11:49 AM (miQY+)
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You're crazy. The Anti-Bush wing of the anti-war movement is by far the dominant faction, and when Obama says "perhaps we could stay (in Iraq) a Bit longer", they'll consider it a Beatitude from the Messiah. That it is 180 degrees opposite of the policy they previously espoused and perfectly in line with Bush's policy will not bother them at all so long as it increases Obama's chance at the presidency.
Posted by: Mark in Portland at June 20, 2008 12:08 PM (+45yf)
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I'm sort of with Mark, here. The vast majority of the war, they care about power.
I further contend that a large portion of those who were against the war were against the way we were fighting it in 2005-2006 and up to the surge. I served during the Southeast Asian War Games and have an aversion to having our troops sent a bajillion miles from home and letting the Gomers shoot at them while having safe havens across a border. I do not understand why there is one brick standing on another in Syria and Iran.
Posted by: Peter at June 20, 2008 12:39 PM (I4yBD)
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I disagree, Mark. If Iraq plays out well, it demolishes the anti-war message they've been pushing for years, and it means history will look kindly on George Bush. That is simply not acceptable. Iraq must crash into a flaming heap, Iran must be ascendant, and America must leave with its tail between its legs and its head hung low.
Nothing less will do. Note that they already hate Pelosi. They will hate Obama when they realize they've been duped again.
Posted by: Pablo at June 20, 2008 01:16 PM (yTndK)
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Pablo,
It must be a great burden to be able to divine what others are thinking. It's almost like being Superman. How do you bear the responsibility?
The problem is, Iran is on the ascendant. As proof, check out how their whacko president was greeted in Baghdad:
"The Shiite-led Iraqi government rolled out the red carpet, literally, for Ahmadinejad as he became the first Iranian president to visit Iraq, a country that was a bitter enemy when Saddam Hussein's Sunni government was in power."
And this thanks to the inept Bush administration. And funny, as someone who is against this war, this does not make me happy at all. Huh. So you were wrong about that. Funny.
That our president has been such a complete and utter disaster makes few people I know happy. You must be hanging out a very strange, very unAmerican crowd.
Posted by: David Terrenoire at June 20, 2008 10:27 PM (Bx4FB)
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David,
I suspect that you missed the mass anti Iran demonstrations that accompanied Amadinnerjackets visit. You have also not noted the 2million signature petition assembled by angry Iraqis demanding Iran stop funding terrorism. I guess you also failed to note the Iraqi armies recent shredding of the Iranian militias in Sadr city, Basra, and Amara.
That selective quoting will mess you up you every time.
Posted by: grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr at June 20, 2008 11:07 PM (DqXz5)
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grrrrrrrr,
That the official government of Iraq, the people you and I spend our tax money to protect, welcomed the president of Iran with military bands and flowers from school children, when our president has to fly in under cover of secrecy, tells me more than petitions and demonstrations.
I don't know about you, but that fish stinks. It stinks real bad.
Posted by: David Terrenoire at June 20, 2008 11:14 PM (Bx4FB)
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Oh, and grrrrrrrr, if you want to quote petitions and such, you might consider that 71% of Iraqis "say they would like the Iraqi government to ask for US-led forces to be withdrawn from Iraq within a year or less."
I know, it's just a poll, but it's a place to begin the debate.
And please, don't assume you know what my position is, just because I'm against this war. I'll be the first to admit it's a lot more complicated than pro and con.
Posted by: David Terrenoire at June 20, 2008 11:25 PM (Bx4FB)
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[[And please, don't assume you know what my position is, just because I'm against this war. I'll be the first to admit it's a lot more complicated than pro and con.]]
errrrrrr, OK. (Dont get your panties in a bunch).
Posted by: grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr at June 21, 2008 12:05 AM (DqXz5)
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It must be a great burden to be able to divine what others are thinking. It's almost like being Superman. How do you bear the responsibility?
David, it's a highly complicated process, but I'll try to explain it to you in terms you might be able to understand. If you want to know what people are thinking, listen to what they are saying and watch what they are doing.
For instance, if you want to know what Maliki thinks of Iranian influence, you could check what he's had to say and do about the Mahdi Army, Iran's proxy in Iraq.
Posted by: Pablo at June 21, 2008 08:01 AM (yTndK)
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I'm also thankful to know that what you need to become an ascendant nation is a walk down the red carpet for your President. I'm sure that if we asked Maliki to roll some red out for Bush, we could get that done and be right back at the top of the world!
David, you brightened my day immeasurably!
Posted by: Pablo at June 21, 2008 08:04 AM (yTndK)
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Gee, David, ya think that maybe, just maybe, the fact that Iran is right next door to Iraq, has a larger army than Iraq, has been sending people into Iraq to blow up Iraqi and American forces, and has no fondness for Iraq based in part on Saddam's war against Iran might--might--have some bearing on how Mr. Maliki treats Mr. Ahmadinnerjacket?
Not to mention that a visiting head of state, regardless of how well or poorly the government feels about the other state, is generally treated very well indeed.
Tell me, David, when President Clinton welcomed Yasser Arafat to the US in 2000, did that mean that the Palestinians were "ascendant"? How about when he welcomed Ehud Barak in the same year, was that evidence that the Israelis were "ascendant"? My, my, the "ascendancy" seems to change hands quickly.
I could go on mocking your position, David, but it's just too easy. I prefer a bit more of a challenge.
Posted by: C-C-G at June 21, 2008 08:37 AM (Hc4y8)
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Ah. I remember David's position on some other stuff. He's off-the-charts crazy.
Yeah, watching and listening to what others say and do is a pretty good indicator of what they're saying and doing.
Posted by: brando at June 21, 2008 10:00 AM (Gs5OS)
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Pablo Sayes:
'...and it means history will look kindly on George Bush.'
Pablo get that damn Breelcream outta your hair!
Your butch will look better, I bet!
Do you still smoke Lucky Strikes???
Posted by: BrotherBoneHead at June 21, 2008 10:02 AM (HeqsW)
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Is that a bone in your head or is your melon really a bong?
Who is the president with the worst approval ratings? Harry Truman. And that's only because they weren't polling for them when Lincoln was in office. You'll remember that a big freaking chunk of the country took up arms and went to war against him.
Posted by: Pablo at June 21, 2008 10:56 AM (yTndK)
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First of all: Jesus, people.
Second of all, I've never been comfortable with this Bush-Truman analogy. I get that you're trying to say that polls lack a certain historical vision, and I agree. But Comparing Truman, who valiantly stood his ground when he was being pressured by Republicans and MacArthur to expand the Korean war into China, to Bush, who seems all too eager start wars of questionable necessity, seems a little off base. Truman certainly wouldn't stand for it if he was alive. As a man of history, comparing Truman to Bush makes my skin crawl.
But in all honesty, I hope you all are right. If Iraq ends up a free and fair democracy and — even further — becomes the key to a democratic, terrorism-free Middle East, I think history will treat Bush as kindly as it does Truman. And the world will be a better place. But I'm skeptical. Or, more precisely, skeptically hopeful.
Posted by: Juan Manuel de Rosas at June 21, 2008 02:14 PM (IVQmE)
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"That our president has been such a complete and utter disaster makes few people I know happy."
David, I'd venture a guess that you know very few people who voted for him as well.
Posted by: daleyrocks at June 21, 2008 02:36 PM (i/fLn)
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Pablo Sayes:
'You’ll remember that a big freaking chunk of...'
I apologize to all the greasers I may have offended here.
The term is friggin'; youngin'!
You obviously are young.
Posted by: BrotherBoneHead at June 21, 2008 05:04 PM (TQBut)
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daleyrocks is right;
'"That our president has been such a complete and utter disaster makes few people I know happy.”
David, I’d venture a guess that you know very few people who voted for him as well.'
I live in Newport Beach, CA a haven for the right.
They are upset about the present but still say he was the best to vote for at that time.
As far as I see it the problem with this is the right would rather have a cardiac rather than admit that they were 'wrong'.
Really, when was the last time you've heard a righty admit they were wrong?
Don't lose sleep!
Posted by: BrotherBoneHead at June 21, 2008 05:26 PM (TQBut)
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Well, I was wrong about the Surge - I thought McCain was an idiot and we were simply exposing more troops to harm, that the answer was a war of attrition. Well, we all know how that turned out...
Given the chance, would I vote for Bush again? In a heartbeat. Heck, if he was running now I'd still vote for him in preference to either of the two now running.
Posted by: Grey Fox at June 21, 2008 08:24 PM (miQY+)
22
when was the last time you've heard a righty admit they were wrong?
I voted for Carter. I'll admit to that.
Posted by: Purple Avenger at June 21, 2008 08:34 PM (dcqty)
23
Bush risked his political career to go to war in Iraq, because he thought it was a danger. He could have ignored it - he could have left it to the next president, or the next generation. Whether you agree with him about the threat Iraq posed or not, you have to give im some credit for that.
Or, we could have simply gone in and out, or bombed it from the air, or done any number of things that were simply symbolic, or removed Saddam without providing for the future. Instead, we got are hands dirty and tried to rebuild Iraq in such a way that it not only kept it from becoming a worse mess, but also went some way towards ending the "root causes" of terrorism. It was unpleasant, but the responsible thing to do.
Posted by: Grey Fox at June 21, 2008 08:46 PM (miQY+)
24
Do your homework: Bush went to war because his PR flacks told him that all great presidents are considered great because they were wartime presidents. He ginned it up with faked evidence and skewed intelligence, and cries now that it blew up in his face. The only redeeming thing is that he will get EXACTLY what he deserves in the history books!
Posted by: Diogenes at June 21, 2008 09:22 PM (PMlL4)
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Diogenes, change your name, you're not looking for an honest man.
Read the Rockefeller report, and you'll see one phrase repeated over and over, "substantiated by intelligence information."
Of course, you won't read the actual report, you'll depend on the MoveOnMedia to tell you parts of it and leave other parts of it out... like the part I just mentioned. To read the actual report might mean that you'd be proved wrong, and you can't abide even the possibility of that, can you?
Posted by: C-C-G at June 21, 2008 09:37 PM (Hc4y8)
26
Diogenes - Have you ever heard the term "hindsight hero?" That's what you and a lot of the left act like with the benefit of better information these days. Unfortunately there is no evidence of lies or faked information on the part of the administration before the war and repeating it does not make your case stronger. I'd be interested in seeing your case for PR flacks being in charge of White House decision making though. I thought it was Cheney.
Posted by: daleyrocks at June 21, 2008 09:38 PM (i/fLn)
27
Oh C-C-G. Why did you have to go and do that?
Oh wait, because it is evidence that maybe he just wasn't lying, and was doing what he thought to be right.
Posted by: Matt at June 21, 2008 10:08 PM (91A6Z)
28
"The only redeeming thing is that he will get EXACTLY what he deserves in the history books!"
To plagarize Churchill: History will be kind to him, because I intend to write it.
Heh.
He already had one war, quite popular and successful at the time, IIRC. Why start another?
Posted by: Grey Fox at June 21, 2008 11:21 PM (miQY+)
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Juan,
But I'm skeptical. Or, more precisely, skeptically hopeful.
Things are looking up in Iraq and they have been for some time. While it's been a long time coming, Iraqis are finally getting it done for themselves. Bravo to them, and I hope nothing more than that they keep it up.
Posted by: Pablo at June 21, 2008 11:56 PM (yTndK)
30
The surge has been a military success thus far. Iraq in 2008 is more stable than 2006. Even as someone who opposed the war from the start, I celebrate the improvements brought by the surge. After all, the more stable Iraq is, the less Iraqi and American casualties there are. We could get into a pissing contest about whose pre-war predictions came out to be true, but frankly that's irrelevant now.
However, I remain skeptical because the obstacles facing a stable Iraq are daunting. Anyone with a cursory knowledge of mid-east history knows that getting Sunnis and Shi'as to get along is — to put it mildly — pretty hard. With an all-volunteer army, it's going to be impossible to keep troop levels this high, so what happens when we start drawing down our troops? There are also other disturbing unanswered questions (Can Maliki create jobs? Can we rebuild Iraqi infrastructure? How are oil profits going to be divided? etc.). Again, I hope my skepticism turns out to be unjustified in the same way that my skepticism about the surge was proven wrong.
@ daleyrocks
I think history will say that the Bush administration and intelligence officials gave absurd amounts of credence to questionable intelligence because they were trying to make a case for a war of choice. For this reason, I don't think Bush will be vindicated by historians. But you are right insofar as that reality is more nuanced than presented by the "Bush faked intelligence" argument. But I guess we'll see in a few decades...
Posted by: Juan Manuel de Rosas at June 22, 2008 03:03 AM (IVQmE)
31
Hey,
I heard somewhere that after Bush flew over some of the flood zones he went promptly to his ranch ta' clear some brush.
Could this be true?
If he would just stay there and clear da' brush, the world would be a better place!
Posted by: BrotherBoneHead at June 22, 2008 09:40 AM (TQBut)
32
Hey,
Come on now, and I know it will be hard for some of you, are you better off than 4/8 ago?
No phony answers, PLEASE!
Posted by: BrotherBoneHead at June 22, 2008 01:33 PM (TQBut)
33
Yes, BoneHead, I am.
For one thing, we have a government in place that is taking Islamic terrorism seriously.
But there's also been a turnaround in my personal life. Several, actually. And since it is, as I said, personal, I ain't gonna share details. Call me a liar if you wish.
Posted by: C-C-G at June 22, 2008 03:24 PM (Hc4y8)
34
BoneHead - Let me take a couple of wild guesses. You believe in anthropogenic global warming. You also want lower energy prices, but don't want any new offshore drilling, drilling in the ANWR, any development of oil shale, or any new domestic refineries built. You also want to reduce our dependence on foreign oil.
How am I doing?
Posted by: daleyrocks at June 22, 2008 03:36 PM (i/fLn)
35
' Let me take a couple of wild guesses. '
Like I said before I believe in UFO'S, Ghosts and Dinosaurs!
Global warming is for punks.
Ever heard of 'Lizard Man'?
I lived there!
Posted by: BrotherBoneHead at June 22, 2008 04:52 PM (TQBut)
36
daleyrocks:
'...or any new domestic refineries built.'
I spent most of my productive life actually participating in the building of Nuclear Plants and upgrades of Refineries.
No, I feel they are greatly needed.
Blame as you wish.
Posted by: BrotherBoneHead at June 22, 2008 05:04 PM (TQBut)
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BrotherBoneHead,
You asked when was the last time a righty admitted that he was wrong. I am about as righty as you can get.
When JFK was elected I thought he was competent and would stand up for the country. I was wrong.
When LBJ became President I thought, he's from Texas. He can't be that bad. I was wrong.
When Richard Nixon became President I thought an old cold warrior wouldn't impose price controls. I was wrong.
When Gerald Ford became President I thought he was a conservative. I was wrong.
When Jimmy Carter was elected I thought "he's a Southerner and a Christian. He can't be as bad as he seems". Boy, was I ever wrong.
When GHW Bush was elected I thought he would continue Reagan's policies and keep his pledge on taxes. I was wrong.
When Bill Clinton was elected I thought he was a moderate. I also thought that Lyndon Johnson was as dishonest a man as had ever been President and that Richard Nixon was the man who would most discredit the Presidency in my lifetime. I don't think I need to tell you how wrong I was.
When GW Bush was elected I thought he was more like Reagan than like his father. I also thought he might try to control spending, the border or both. I was again wrong.
I still believe that somewhere out there is an honest Democrat. But I'm probably wrong.
Posted by: Ken Hahn at June 22, 2008 11:29 PM (uT2/F)
38
Whether Iraq is a success or not, historically speaking, will not be evident for decades. When England occupied that area in the first half of the last century, after a few decades, there were many coups and turmoil. That country has all the makings of unrest: multiple ethnic groups that don't trust/hate each other, high unemployment rates, broken infrastructure and a HUGE natural resource worth trillions of dollars to control. It will be a tinderbox easily for the next 100 years regardless of the surge or our presence...
As far as GWB and history goes, I think Iraq isn't his legacy as that will be shared by several presidents into the future. GWB's legacy will be 9/11, OSB, torture, Gitmo, end runs around the constitution, Katrina/NO, NCLB, and illegal wiretapping.
Posted by: matta at June 23, 2008 01:43 PM (jRTMP)
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GWB will be remembered in history as the President whose achievements was smeared by his political opponents
Matta , the September 11 , 2001 tragedy did not start with Mr G.W. Bush , it started when his predecessor foolishly followed the advice of Janet Reno to build an intelligence wall that prevented the FBI to share information with the CIA or the military . The planning of the destruction of the World Trade Center started way before Bush decided to campaign for president for the 2000 presidential election . President Bush got September 11 because the previous president and his administration cared more about power than the safety of the country .
2)Torture ? what torture , Abu Ghraib ?? You got to be kidding . That disgusting episode was nothing but a sadistic form of juvenile college pranks done by undisciplined soldiers that was commanded by incompetent military officers led by BG Janis Karpinski . If you want to know what torture really means , just try to research what Abu Ghraib was really like under Saddam Hussein . You are just following the narrative presented to you by the media and by your own political biases .
3) Katrina . why blame GWB when the majority of the blame should be shouldered by the local authorities led by Mayor Nagin and the State authorities led by Governor Blanco . http://www.paoracle.com/?archive=102. A very honest essay about the events of Katrina . Does the picture of Louisiana school buses underwater was a severe indictment of the incompetence and negligence of Mayor Nagin and governor Blanco or are you just going to play the blame the president for everything .
4)Gitmo . If those prisoners were innocent , I wonder why their home countries prefer them there rather than back home . I also wonder why that all of those incarcerated there came from the battlefields of Afghanistan . Hint to you , the Geneva Conventions permits the execution of illegal combatants in the battlefield with extreme prejudice . Believe me , if the military is left with two choices on what to do with illegal combatants caught in the battlefield is to send them to Gitmo and get caught entangled with activist lawyers or execute the SOB , they will be more than willing to shoot that terrorist than to waste their time with the SOB's lawyers in front of the judge .
5) NCLB would not be necessary if the school kids were being taught not indoctrinated . Many conservatives and libertarians hated it , but many accepted the bitter pill in order to address the decline of the quality of American education . The best solution would have been , remove the federal government from running education . All they have to do is set the standards , let the individual states find a way to plan it and get the private sector to run it and oh yeah ,separate the teachers unions , lobbyists and education experts from real teachers and our kids .
6) Illegal wiretapping or it's only illegal if they are used against those who want to wish the US and it's citizens harm . Listen to me carefully , the phone calls they are eavesdropping originates from countries outside the US and received in this country or to another country . What makes it harder is this , a lot of phone numbers are disposable and FISA cannot react fast enough to recognized that our enemies know how to play the game as well . Unlike wiretapping involving criminals , you only can get one chance against terrorists .
Posted by: Wil at June 23, 2008 09:14 PM (4sHuN)
40
Incidentally, I believe that the wiretapping efforts were OK'ed by a Clinton-appointed judge, and the appeal against them turned down with prejudice by the Supreme Court. So, it is not "illegal" at all.
Posted by: Grey Fox at June 23, 2008 11:32 PM (miQY+)
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June 18, 2008
Obama Volunteers Boot Muslims From Stage
I don't think for a second that the freshman Senator is himself anti-Muslim—his father's family and many of his half-siblings are Muslim—but this incident once again shows he is part of anything other than a post-racial campaign:
Two Muslim women at Barack Obama's rally in Detroit Monday were barred from sitting behind the podium by campaign volunteers seeking to prevent the women's headscarves from appearing in photographs or on television with the candidate.
The campaign has apologized to the women, all Obama supporters who said they felt betrayed by their treatment at the rally.
"This is of course not the policy of the campaign. It is offensive and counter to Obama's commitment to bring Americans together and simply not the kind of campaign we run," said Obama spokesman Bill Burton. "We sincerely apologize for the behavior of these volunteers."
He can blame the volunteers that forced these Muslim women off stage today in two separate incidents by different Obama volunteers, but these incidents aren't the first and second audience-shaping controversies for Obama's campaign. In April, campaign volunteers
issued a directive to "Get me more white people, we need more white people" for Michelle Obama's appearance at Carnegie Mellon.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
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1
Well Bob, of course it will be just a matter of time before the official Obama word is:
"Those are not the volunteers I knew before"
Posted by: Enlightened at June 18, 2008 11:52 AM (CHJ2J)
2
If there is anyone to blame in this it is you and bloggers like you.
Posted by: Frederick at June 18, 2008 12:41 PM (vGKYN)
3
And he'll be stunned! Stunned and appalled to find out that this sort of racial engineering could occur in his campaign.
My wife? Michelle? Demanding more whites? For PR purposes? I cannot disassociate myself from her any more than I can from my racist grandmother or insane black supremacist pastor, from whom I unreservedly disassociate myself. I disassociate myself from this Michelle, who is not the Michelle I've known for all these years. Now screw off and let me eat my waffle.
Posted by: Darrell at June 18, 2008 01:13 PM (TIbOm)
Posted by: serfer62 at June 18, 2008 01:15 PM (GfcwE)
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Obama throws muslim women under the bus! (it's getting crowded down there).
Posted by: David at June 18, 2008 02:59 PM (khPxz)
6
"If there is anyone to blame in this it is you and bloggers like you...and FoxNews."
There. Fixed that for you.
Apparetnly Fredrick works in Fred Hobbs' office.
Posted by: Lamontyoubigdummy at June 18, 2008 03:08 PM (GrBA3)
7
The women were GOP plants trying to create a "photo op" for the GOPigs to used against Obama.
Obama's people were wise to be waiting for such a tactic.
There's plenty of room "under the bus" for more idiots too.
Posted by: captainkona at June 18, 2008 03:21 PM (R/MHt)
8
Where are the cell phone pictures and video.
Posted by: davod at June 18, 2008 04:24 PM (llh3A)
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So Obaba is a new kind of politician. The stacking of the TV photos in a campaign event is old school politics. Obama would never stoop to old school politics. That is what staffers are for.
Must be nice to be the Messiah, he gets to do all the scummy political things that every one else is roasted for and it's never his fault. His supporters start shouting about something way over there, it's Blackwater, it's Rove, it's Bush.
Did the Obama campaign do this or not? The answer is not Bush or Blackwater, Pinson.
Posted by: Peter at June 18, 2008 08:19 PM (GAf+S)
10
Baryy Ho Barry OH!.. will you ever present your TRUE Side???
Posted by: redhawk at June 18, 2008 09:06 PM (AfS2M)
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"If there is anyone to blame in this it is you and bloggers like you."
Yes, it's true. Obama and his staff bear no responsibility at all for this action; the bloggers made him do it! The man who wants to be the leader of the most powerful nation in the world is so spineless that he can be bullied and browbeaten into doing things he does not want to do by the overwhelming power of . . . bloggers.
Now that we know the truth, I expect that Bob Owens and his fellow bloggers will start campaigning for Obama. Think about it -- if he wins, the bloggers will control the President!
Posted by: Pat at June 19, 2008 08:28 AM (0suEp)
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See, she doesn't hate whitey at all.
Posted by: libarbarian at June 19, 2008 09:51 AM (tCYT+)
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Obama already has the radical muslim vote. He needs to get some white people out there, those are the ones he needs to fool.
Posted by: Capitalist Infidel at June 19, 2008 10:18 AM (kNqJV)
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Libarbarian....
It's that M.Obama LUUUVVESSS whitey's money...
As such Obama today passing up on public financing for his Campaign--- so Obama can take the MILLIONS from 'Soros' like people....
The Obamas can be bought folks.....it's all there....all you have to do is look at the bigger picture.....
THAT SMILE YOU SEE ON MICHELLE OBAMA COMES FROM SEEING THE CASHING COMING IN....
sad
Posted by: peter at June 19, 2008 11:20 AM (+/c0N)
15
I thought those bescarved ladies were there to represent the coveted Muammar Gadaffi endorsement that Obama snared last weekend. The Libyans can't be happy with this type of development.
Posted by: daleyrocks at June 19, 2008 02:53 PM (i/fLn)
16
Also, come to think of it, any real Muslim supporter of Obama--especially women wearing headscarves--would be thoroughly and unfortunately aware of how much many Americans hate and mistrust visibly Muslim people, and of how their being positioned front and center could serve to stoke the rumors of Obama's "secret Muslim" status. Either these two girls were extraordinarily naive, which is possible, or they are not who they say they are. Remember the "Iron my shirt!" guys who turned out to be HRC plants?
Posted by: apikores at June 20, 2008 02:20 AM (YurC9)
17
"Also, come to think of it, any real Muslim supporter of Obama--especially women wearing headscarves--would be thoroughly and unfortunately aware of how much many Americans hate and mistrust visibly Muslim people, and of how their being positioned front and center could serve to stoke the rumors of Obama's "secret Muslim" status."
Dexter - It's that secret Islamophobia that is rampant, the rise in hate crimes against Muslims in this country that is always alleged but never seen or proved in any statistics. That must be it. Yeah!
That's why CAIR demanded an apology for the ladies from Obama and Obama complied.
You need to get out more dude.
Posted by: daleyrocks at June 20, 2008 10:14 AM (i/fLn)
18
"The women were GOP plants trying to create a "photo op" for the GOPigs to used against Obama.
Obama's people were wise to be waiting for such a tactic."
When the left starts to get behind in an arguement they turn to 1 or 2 things. Conspiracy or name calling. Soon they will be commenting on ever spelling and grammer mistake that is made.
Posted by: whiskey6 at June 21, 2008 02:14 AM (Qk35P)
19
Remember the "Iron my shirt!" guys who turned out to be HRC plants?
No, but I remember that they turned out to be employees of a local radio stations morning zoo show.
The women were GOP plants trying to create a "photo op" for the GOPigs to used against Obama.
Yeah, right. Sure they were.
Posted by: Pablo at June 21, 2008 11:04 AM (yTndK)
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It's worse than that, Pablo. Apparently, one of the women was in charge of proselytizing at U of Mich from 2000 to 2003. The other woman was the chair of a group called SAFE, which hosted a 2002 conference at which "Annihilate the Jews" was chanted.
The links with the proof are all at the link I provided above. I am sure the lefties will still try to claim that these two were GOP plants, however... they never let the facts get in the way of a good smear.
Posted by: C-C-G at June 21, 2008 12:13 PM (Hc4y8)
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AP, Let's Do This Thing
Michelle Malkin's take is typical of bloggers who find the Associated Press' tiered excerpt pricing scheme targeted at bloggers to be farcical, but I think her response of charging the Associated Press for content they cite from bloggers doesn't go far enough.
I propose that in addition to charging AP for using blogger content, that AP be charged editorial fees when bloggers are forced to do the fact checking that in-house editors fail to do. For every blog entry proving than an Associated Press story is using false information or misleading, the Associated Press should pay that blogger the AP-supplied standard of $2.50/word. Just doing a quick check of my content from the present back until the beginning of May, the Associated Press owes me editorial services fees of $2,580 for 1,032 words correcting AP stories dating back to May 2. Some of that would be returned to AP (at $2.50/word) for the text examples I cited, but overall, it is a worthwhile enterprise. If I went back through all of my archives, I suspect that I could easily compile a fact-checking bill for the AP in the tens of thousands of dollars.
You'll not find me complaining about the Associated Press' new ideas of content fees. Their accountants, however, may feel otherwise.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
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CY - send the bill. Who knows, they might even pay it

Posted by: Mark at June 18, 2008 02:20 PM (4od5C)
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An Army Learns
Over at The Donovan, proof that this generation of military leaders is learning from mistakes made in the past.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
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Gore Shame
The worlds greatest environmental hypocrite wastes so much energy that his consumption would power 232 normal homes.
Sadly not content with even that level of wastefulness, the Goracle has now taken to directly belching balls of energy into the atmosphere.
Update: Steve Strum notes (correctly) that Gore's
annual usage would power 232 normal homes for a
month. Not quite as bad as originally thought, but still horrific.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
08:44 AM
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Bob: you're mixing apples and oranges, 232 refers to the number of homes that could be powered for a MONTH by Gore's ANNUAL energy usage.
Posted by: steve sturm at June 18, 2008 08:59 AM (QVo1E)
2
True Steve but that still leaves him with about a 12 to 1 ratio for annual consumption.
Now do you want to break it down by sq ft or cubic foot volume since his house is larger than the 'average' house.
Don't bother because no matter how you cut it he is sucking up a lot more power than others no matter how you cut it.
Posted by: JustADude at June 18, 2008 09:33 AM (1aM/I)
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Horrific is right.
The link states that Al uses 213,210 kWh per year while the average home uses 11,040 kWh. If my math is correct (and it rarely is so someone needs to check me)then Al uses 202,170 more kWh's than the average household per year. This equates to a 1831.25% increase in kWh over the average home.
That's quite a lot ...
Posted by: Dan Irving at June 18, 2008 09:39 AM (zw8QA)
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Irony= George Bush's Western White House is much more energy efficient than the Goracles.
Manbearpig is just another power-hungry and greedy "reformer" who sees no problem with living well while imposing hardship upon everyone else. Reminds me of the communist party apparatchiks in the old USSR who lived on western delicacies while the proles eked out a living.
Posted by: iconoclast at June 18, 2008 09:47 AM (TzLpv)
5
213,210/(232 x 12) = 72.5 kWh/month = a $4.35 monthly electricity bill where I live. Thanks for the good news! Yippie!
Posted by: erik at June 19, 2008 01:51 AM (lQA7F)
6
Oh, goody, someone mentioned offsets!
Did you know, Iggy, that Algore "purchases" his offsets from a company called Generation Investment Management?
Did you also know, Iggy, that Algore is, according to the company's own website, Chairman of GIM?
In other words, he is purchasing the offsets... FROM HIMSELF!
To put it in terms even a lefty can understand... all he is doing to "purchase" these offsets is taking money from his right pocket and putting it in his left pocket.
Gee, ain't that grand?
You might also read up on how "offsets" really work--or don't.
Posted by: C-C-G at June 19, 2008 06:51 PM (Hc4y8)
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June 17, 2008
Obama Gaffes Again
Somebody get a history book for the clueless freshman Senator from Illinois (my bold):
And, you know, let's take the example of Guantanamo. What we know is that, in previous terrorist attacks -- for example, the first attack against the World Trade Center, we were able to arrest those responsible, put them on trial. They are currently in U.S. prisons, incapacitated.
And the fact that the administration has not tried to do that has created a situation where not only have we never actually put many of these folks on trial, but we have destroyed our credibility when it comes to rule of law all around the world, and given a huge boost to terrorist recruitment in countries that say, "Look, this is how the United States treats Muslims."
For the moment let's ignore that terrorist recruitment in general (and for al Qaeda in particular) is
on the decline and Barack is making up his inconvenient untruths as he goes along, to focus instead on his insistence that Bill Clinton's flawed policy of treating terrorism as a law enforcement issue is somehow a winning strategy. We'll use Obama's own 1993 WTC bombing example to debunk his claim.
It's quite simple: where is the 1993 World Trade Center bomb-builder? Is he in a U.S prison, as Obama claims? Not even close.
Though grossly neglected in the media, Abdul Rahman Yasin conducted the first attempted chemical weapons attack on U.S. soil by terrorists with the 1993 World Trade Center bomb. The bomb that detonated in the WTC garage in 1993 was built by Yasin to create smoke filled with sodium cyanide *(update, see below) which he hoped would rise through elevator shafts, ventilation ducts, and stairwells to suffocate 50,000 people.
Fortunately for those in the World Trade Center that day, the bomb burned hotter than Yasin expected, and incinerated the cyanide as it detonated instead of spreading it in toxic smoke.
Yasin fled the United States after the bombing to Iraq, and lived as
Saddam Hussein's guest in Baghdad until the invasion. He is still free, and wanted by the FBI.
Once again, Barack Obama is dead wrong on the facts.
Update: It now appears that the claim that Yasin used sodium cyanide in the bomb is on very weak ground, and is
more than likely false From an online term paper that does a good job of synthesizing the story.
Forensics in World Trade Center Bombing in 1993
... So, what were the evidences, which supported the statement of the Judge Duffy, that there had been cyanide in the WTC bomb? The main question to be solved here lied in the following: what could be the consequences of mixing cyanide with nitric or sulfuric acids, both of which had been found in the bomb fragments? The FBI chemist Steven Burgmeister was the main person to be inquired about the results of the forensic chemical analysis. The thing is, that Burgmeister never made it clear, that he had come to any positive conclusions as for cyanide' presence in the explosive. (Dwyer, 1994, p. 237) This is an abstract from the Burgmeister's interview by one of the prosecutors during the trial:
Prosecutor: What happens, when sodium cyanide is mixed with nitric or sulfuric acid?
Burmeister: There is formed hydrogen cyanide, which is a gas, and which is extremely toxic.
Prosecutor: When you say, that hydrogen cyanide is very toxic, could you give an idea of how toxic it is?
Burmeister: Very toxic, if you breathe, you are dead… (Burgmeister, 1994, p. 6911)
One of the proofs for FBI agents was the discovery of the bottle with sodium cyanide at the place, where the terrorists were preparing their explosive. But it is clear, that this does not directly prove there was any cyanide in the bomb. The fact is that sodium cyanide may be used for different purposes, for example, for photography. Its cost is very low, and it is sold in tons for industrial use. There have been also carried out technical analysis as for how much cyanide would be needed to create such an explosive, and how it is possible to create hydrogen cyanide and the assertions of the Judge Duffy were not confirmed by the FBI. (Dwyer, 1994, p. 240)
It seems that the cyanide claims I cited in this and the previous blog entry were based upon the words of Judge Duffy, based upon his interpretation of what he heard from FBI chemist Steven Burgmeister, yet Burgmeister neither confirmed nor denied cyanide was in the bomb. I'm not sure how Duffy got from Burgmeister's statements to his conclusion. Forensics did not recover any cyanide at the bomb site, only a small quantity at the sit where the bomb was constructed.
None of that matters to the central thesis, which is that Obama was wrong about terrorist recruitment and about his daft view that combating terrorism is best done as a law enforcement matter.
Law enforcement is the enforcement of laws
after they have been broken and a crime has been committed. Preemption is not an option using this model; you can't arrest a terrorist until they have broken a law, and you can't do that unless you have jurisdiction, cooperation with local law enforcement, a judge who will give you a warrant, etc.
Good luck with that.
The terrorists use asymmetrical warfare as their tool of choice, and common sense dictates that the proper response is also military in nature.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
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Where did the information about cyanide come from?
Posted by: Wm T Sherman at June 17, 2008 01:57 PM (w41GQ)
Posted by: yochanan at June 17, 2008 02:00 PM (9Ds1O)
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Either Obama is incredibly cynical or incredibly stupid. Trouble is McCain won't call him on it, and the MSM woudn't report it if he did.
Posted by: moptop at June 17, 2008 02:27 PM (oPLPa)
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The ever-omniscient Wikipedia has a quote indicating that cyanide was not in the bomb, and he regretted not putting it in. Your point that the bomber, formerly a guest of Hussein, is still free is correct.
A better question is why did Obama say 'incapacitated'? Obviously this isn't true. We incarcerate our prisoners. While incarcerated they have access to lawyers, TV, letters, and phones. 'Incapacitated' means they would have an inability to act (sorta like what we had going down in Gitmo). Incarcerated in our legal system means that you can still have your lawyer pass messages on for you, communicate in code via letters & phone, or catch up on current events by watching TV.
I wish our legal system would 'incapacitate' these terrorists.
Posted by: JAFAC at June 17, 2008 02:28 PM (vf262)
5
The Left either invents or distorts History to suit their agenda and support their propaganda message.
Posted by: DirtCrashr at June 17, 2008 02:40 PM (VNM5w)
6
A better question is why did Obama say 'incapacitated'?
Let's just call that a Jessie Jackson moment.
Posted by: Sainteve. at June 17, 2008 02:44 PM (kX5hh)
7
JAFAC, you can chose to believe that an anonymous wikipedi author is correct, or that the judge in the criminal trial wass correct when he noted the use of sodium cyanide in the bomb.
I tend to find the judge more credible.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at June 17, 2008 02:50 PM (xNV2a)
8
I wonder which of the 57 states they are incarcerated in? I am still wondering why anyone gives any credence to what these liars are saying?
Posted by: Zelsdorf Ragshaft III at June 17, 2008 02:54 PM (J5AYY)
9
The WSJ reported the plot to use poison gas after the trial was over. It was shocking at the time given the media's failure to cover this story.
I wonder when the trolls will show up to say it was just a government plot or that poison gas cannot be burned, just as they said fire couldn't melt steel.
Posted by: Thomas Jackson at June 17, 2008 03:05 PM (LHaZf)
10
Every American should get down on his knees each morning and pray in gratitude to God Almighty that we have been afforded the opportunity to dispatch in great numbers jihadis in Iraq & Afghanistan. It is truly a blessing.
Posted by: thegreatbeast at June 17, 2008 03:15 PM (pKf96)
11
Obama campaign slogans:
CHANGE ... what you'll have left after I raise taxes.
CHANGE ... your gas prices upwards, but gradually
CHANGE ... my hat size because every day my head gets bigger
CHANGE ... what I do to my story depending upon whom I'm talking to.
CHANGE ... what I do every day to my foreign policy
CHANGE ... your lifestyle because the rest of the world doesn't like you
CHANGE ... my friends when they turn out NOT to be "The person I knew"
CHANGE ... what my radical left-wing ideologue handlers have in store for you
CHANGE ... what I do to facts to suit my needs.
CHANGE ... more of you into victims of something and build government programs to take care of you
CHANGE ... you into a ward of the state so that I OWN you and your vote
CHANGE ... your mind and believe in me for I am the Obamessiah come to save you
CHANGE ... into sycophants; what the liberal mainstream media do under the spell of the Obamessiah
CHANGE ... the chant I use to control the weak-minded Obamanized masses
CHANGE ... into an Obamatron; join the cult, repeat the chant: CHANGE, CHANGE, CHANGE ...
CHANGE ... what I plan to do to America because it's the greatest country on the planet.
CHANGE ... the national anthems of all the nations of the world to Kumbaya using my messianic skills
CHANGE ... into mumble-mouthed idiot when I don't have speech to read.
CHANGE ... your underwear because you'll defecate in your pants when you wake up to find out what the left-wing liberal ideologues have done after gaining complete control of government.
CHANGE ... you better freaking BELIEVE in because it will WORK you over.
Obama: the AUDACITY to count on you and I being DOPEs
Posted by: occam at June 17, 2008 03:23 PM (L/w+g)
12
57 States? Is that the new meme from the wingnuts? Seriously? If it was a matter of raw intelligence, Romney would be the candidate. Zelsdorf...keep lowering the bar for discourse.
Posted by: RNC at June 17, 2008 03:25 PM (1FJUg)
13
I do believe Obama is following the principle that if you lie enough--or big enough--you have a better chance of being believed, because no one will believe you had the audacity (yes!) to lie so much.
In the 1940s, the Big Lie technique was adhered to by such as Joseph Goebbels.
I'm not comparing Obama to Goebbels, I'm merely noting that on virtually every topic of international interest, historical or current, Obama lies--or, politely put, makes mistakes that, oddly, go uncorrected.
Past time for him to be hammered by the press. The way they hammered Bush every day for 8 years, the way they hammered Hillary.
Posted by: M Kronberg at June 17, 2008 03:27 PM (2vb/G)
14
Kronberg, that post was satire right? The entire Iraq run-up was propaganda. McClellan even stated it, albeit too late.
Now, I'm not saying the administration didn't have noble motives, but it was a big lie for a war and they knew it. I believe Obama has genuine motives too. Your histrionics are too one-sided. Take off the blinders.
Posted by: Blinders at June 17, 2008 03:40 PM (1FJUg)
15
Now, I'm not saying the administration didn't have noble motives, but it was a big lie for a war and they knew it.
It saddens me that so many ignore the fact that the U.S. government - Democrat and Republican, Executive and Legislative, the current Administration and the previous - acted on incorrect intelligence collected over many years, and instead attempt to claim that "Bush lied."
Blinders is an accurate name, I suppose, for someone who conveniently ignores data that infringe upon her preferred narrative.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at June 17, 2008 03:49 PM (xNV2a)
16
CY, like your blog, it is always interesting to read and generally the infestation of the BHO cleanup posters is not too high.
Posted by: Moultrie at June 17, 2008 04:22 PM (SO5pX)
17
The main reason his comments worry me has to do with his focus on taking action after an attack. In contrast, Bush has focused on preventing attacks and removing threats.
Personally, I would rather take action to prevent an attack than sick a team of prosecutors on some terrorists after an attack has been successfully carried out. Granted, lawyers can make a person's life hell, but I don't think they are much of a deterrent to terrorists that plan to die in the attack, as was the case on 9/11.
Posted by: Pundit Joe at June 17, 2008 04:32 PM (hXHgF)
18
This is my first time posting here so bear with me.
Confederate, in regards to your 3:49 PM post, let me say this - Bush did control some of this intelligence. The administration manipulated not only the intelligence, but more importantly, the situation. In the aftermath of 9/11, no politician could be reasonably expected to not err on the side of caution. Those who spoke out against it did so because of their aversion to war in general and because they were, for the most part, not in any position to have to take a stand that could come back and haunt them.
But I will give you that it was an intelligence failure of epic proportions and consequneces by our intelligence commmunity.
But please do not have your blinders on when it comes to the fact that Bush was determined to go to war with Iraq regardless of 9/11. He just found a better way to push his own agenda. And numerous people in Bush's administration have been quoted saying as much.
And you cannot ignore the Bush administrations culpability in letting 9/11 happen when there was that guy who was jumping up and down and screaming from the FBI about what was going to happen.
All that being said, it turns out there was 100% accurate intelligence regarding Iraq available to us that was never consulted - the weapons inspections by the UN. Turns out, they were right about Iraq the whole time. I love the way that has never been discussed accept for the one article I saw about it roughly 5 years ago.
And lastly, there was no vital, American interest in going into Iraq. That was always my reason for opposition to the war. Yes, Hussein was a bad man who did horrible things. But why wasn't that addressed in the 80's when he did them? Iraq had no way to do anything to the US on our own soil. Nor did it have anything to do with 9/11 - a lie still repeated by Cheney to this day.
And if Iraq was such an eminent threat, then what are Iran and North Korea?
Who really has the blinders on?
Posted by: KnSD at June 17, 2008 04:39 PM (tkDnR)
19
An Obama Presidency will mean either a civil war to take back the country and salvage what remains after enough people realize that America is sliding away (and nothing less than this will do the job), or we accept it and the American experiment is allowed to sunset.
I believe it will come down to one of those two choices.
Posted by: Sam at June 17, 2008 04:46 PM (qetyY)
20
Evidently Blinders lives in one of the seven states we don't know about and they don't get up to date news. Even the media has basically admitted that Bush was correct and they hyped the Bush lied, people died for their own and the democrats purposes. Most stupid democrats know that the WMD 'is there' along with the congressional mandate to remove Saddam came out of the 90's while Bush was still in Tx. Slick Willie signed the 'remove Saddam' bill and then got diverted from his duty by a stained blue dress. Blinders should make an appointment immediately with any nut doctor that specializes in BDS. Not many right now, but hundreds of thousands (including my niece) are training and planning on getting billions from the BDS sufferers. The need will come when Bush goes back to Tx and the democrats are still totally possessed by BDS, but there is no one there to project their nightmares on.
Posted by: Scrapiron at June 17, 2008 04:47 PM (GAf+S)
21
Why is it just fine when a silver-tongued orator constantly displays an ignorance of history?
Posted by: drjohn at June 17, 2008 04:48 PM (324mD)
22
"And if Iraq was such an eminent threat, then what are Iran and North Korea?"
The term is "imminent," and Bush didn't say they were. He said that he didn't want to wait until after the fact to find out that they indeed were. And the difference was we hadn't defeated the other two contries and established well-defined terms of compliance. Violating those terms was tantamount to resumeing war. It cracks me up when people act like Saddam was some innocent-til-proven-guilty character. Nothing could have been further from the truth.
But John Edwards and Jay Rockefeller, among other Dems, certainly did say it.
Posted by: tsmonk at June 17, 2008 04:51 PM (j0chB)
23
And you cannot ignore the Bush administrations culpability in letting 9/11 happen when there was that guy who was jumping up and down and screaming from the FBI about what was going to happen.
Who was "that guy"? And just when did the 9/11 hijackers enter the country?
And if Iraq was such an eminent threat, then what are Iran and North Korea?
The only person who said Iraq was an eminent threat was Sen. Rockefeller. Bush said the threat was not eminent.
Posted by: Rob Crawford at June 17, 2008 05:09 PM (Bpq+O)
24
"Yasin fled the United States after the bombing to Iraq, and lived as Saddam Hussein's guest in Baghdad until the invasion."
Wow.
But, but, Saddam had no ties to terror, BUSH LIED I TELL YOU.
Posted by: grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr at June 17, 2008 05:18 PM (gkobM)
25
Thanks for catching the typo tsmonk.
Bush actually did say they were an imminent threat with their WMD. That statement is what made me stand up and take notice. That's when I knew that my President was being less than truthful with the country. And that was my opposition.
And I certainly didn't say Saddam was innocent until proving guilty. Hussein had been violating the terms of the UN Resolutions for years. Why the rush at that point? And the UN Inspections basically said he had nothing. He was saber-rattling and trying to make himself relevant. But that is not enough of a reason to go to war.
And if a leader of a nation should be removed because they were guilty, where is your rigtheous idignation at Milosevic, Idi Amin, Darfur or Rwanda? Did those leaders not warrant the same consequences for their actions as Hussein?
And what about Al Qaeda? Why not go after the people who attacked us? Why not shock and awe the Taliban in Afghanistan into complete and total submission and help that country rebuild and stop being the problem it has been for the last 30 years? At that point in time, isn't that the more pressing concern?
And it still doesn't answer the larger question that if we were so worried about WMD and not wanting to wait until after the fact to find out, wny are Iran and North Korea not considered the bigger threat? Their nuclear programs were certainly, documentably, further along than Iraq's.
And you don't even offer an argument about Bush's stated desire, and that of the hawks around him, to go to war with Iraq when he took office. Not commenting on it seems to me to be telling.
You can try and justify the war in Iraq any way you want, but you will never convince me it was right or worth the lives it has cost. Just as I am sure I will never convince you of the opposite. Even if this turns out to be the best thing for the Middle East 100 years down the road, it was still the wrong choice, at the wrong time, for the wrong reasons - all 10 or so we have been given so far.
Posted by: KnSD at June 17, 2008 05:19 PM (tkDnR)
26
I periodically challenge the Bush haters to imagine they were in a room with GW Bush and CIA Director George Tenet in the days leading up to the 2003 invasion, when Tenet told GWB that the case for WMDs was a "slam dunk", and ask them what they would have said to refute him.
The only responses I get back are on the order of drinking red-dyed milk and vomiting it back up on the steps of the City Hall in protest at going to war. Bush haters don't even pretend to want to be taken seriously; they just want to vent.
Posted by: Orion at June 17, 2008 05:30 PM (xGZ+b)
27
And my apologies to you Confederate. I did not mean to side track your blog to the war. The battle has already been fought.
Regarding your blog about Obama. Yeah, he does need a little help in the history department. I grant you that one.
And the press' refusal to call him on it has been a travesty, too.
Obviously, from my posts, I think it is apparent that I am a Democrat. I hope you don't mind if I pop in from time to time to add my 2 cents to the coversation as my time allows.
I actually stumbled across your blog from the Real Clear Politics website. Its actually a pretty good website. The articles tend to be balanced between conservative and liberal and it is nice to hear an opposing view for me to challenge myself and my opinions.
I notice that again today, I found myself agreeing with Pat Buchanan. That alwasy irritates me. LOL
And just for the record, I am actually a Hillary supporter. I don't particularly like Obama and I actually really do like McCain. I haven't even made up my mind to vote this cycle. Ican't in good conscience vote for Obama for many reasons but I also can't vote for McCain in good conscience just for one reason. So I might just sit this one out. Luckily, in CA I have that option since Obama should carry the state regardless of my vote.
Thanks again for the blog. Later on I am going to go back and read some of your past stuff.
Posted by: KnSD at June 17, 2008 05:38 PM (tkDnR)
28
Obama gets his gift from Flip Wilson's Rev. Leroy, of the CHURCH OF WHAT's HAPPENIN' NOW:
A lie is a good as the truth, if you can get someone to believe it.
Posted by: Original Pechanga at June 17, 2008 05:39 PM (QHbJx)
29
KnSD: "Bush actually did say they were an iminent threat with their WMDs."
Care to give the date and speech he said this? If you can find it you probably will be awarded the Hero of the People medal (2nd Class, with Oak Clusters!) by the DNC, because they've tried in vain for 5 years to find somewhere he said this or anything like this.
Try. Google "Bush imminent threat" and see what you come up with. There are a lot of "I-hate-Bush!" vanity websites where the posters claim he said it, sure. One of the symptoms of BDS is hearing voices in your head and being unable to tell fantasy from reality. But no one has ever found an actual, verifiable quote where President Bush said Iraq was an "iminent threat" or, "the threat is iminent", or any words to those effects.
If you can't argue from the basis of reality, what good is your opinion worth?
Posted by: Orion at June 17, 2008 05:40 PM (NmR1a)
30
Confed Yankee gaffes once again. Obama is dead on - we tried and convicted all four of the 1993 WTC conspirators that we caught. This completely supports obama's and other true small government supporter's contention about Gitmo - it's not necessary. The fact that we didn't have Gitmo-type detentions of the 1993 culprits did not hurt American security. We were able to bring the guys we caught to justice using our normal constitutional judicial proceedings and the rule of law instead of the rule of barbarism.
Yeah we didn't catch a couple guys but that had nothing to do with the absence of unlimited enemy combatant detentions at Gitmo or any failings of the US justice system.
ps: Bush's use of unconstitutional detentions at Gitmo and non-use of our justice system to prosecute terrorists has also failed to catch Yasin and bring him to justice too. As you state he is still on the loose. Using your own argument Bush's terrorist policies have been a failure.
Posted by: persistent vegitative liberal at June 17, 2008 05:45 PM (NyEu6)
31
> periodically challenge the Bush haters to imagine they were in a room with GW Bush and CIA Director George Tenet in the days leading up to the 2003 invasion, when Tenet told GWB that the case for WMDs was a "slam dunk", and ask them what they would have said to refute him.
Picking up a phone and called Mohammed ElBaradei and Hans Blix, would have done the job.
Posted by: Anselm at June 17, 2008 05:45 PM (0Y/X+)
32
"And, you know, let's take the example of Guantanamo. What we know is that, in previous terrorist attacks -- for example, the first attack against the World Trade Center, we were able to arrest those responsible, put them on trial. They are currently in U.S. prisons, incapacitated."
Q: Well Mr Obama so you think that the right policy is to prosecute terrorist?
Mr. Obama: Well yes it worked after the bombing of the World Trade Center.
Q: Mr. Obama, and where is the World Trade Center now?
Mr. Obama: Uh,
Posted by: Doug at June 17, 2008 05:49 PM (5ZjzM)
33
>>nSD: "Bush actually did say they were an iminent threat with their WMDs."
>Care to give the date and speech he said this?
Take your pick
"The Iraqi regime is a threat of unique urgency."
• President Bush, 10/2/02
"There's a grave threat in Iraq. There just is."
• President Bush, 10/2/02
"This man poses a much graver threat than anybody could have possibly imagined."
• President Bush, 9/26/02
"No terrorist state poses a greater or more immediate threat to the security of our people and the stability of the world than the regime of Saddam Hussein in Iraq."
• Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld, 9/19/02
"Some have argued that the nuclear threat from Iraq is not imminent - that Saddam is at least 5-7 years away from having nuclear weapons. I would not be so certain. And we should be just as concerned about the immediate threat from biological weapons. Iraq has these weapons."
• Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld, 9/18/02
The Iraqi regime is a threat to any American. ... Iraq is a threat, a real threat."
• President Bush, 1/3/03
"The world is also uniting to answer the unique and urgent threat posed by Iraq whose dictator has already used weapons of mass destruction to kill thousands."
• President Bush, 11/23/02
"Absolutely."
• White House spokesman Ari Fleischer answering whether Iraq was an "imminent threat," 5/7/03
"This is about imminent threat."
• White House spokesman Scott McClellan, 2/10/03
Iraq poses "terrible threats to the civilized world."
• Vice President Dick Cheney, 1/30/03
Iraq "threatens the United States of America."
• Vice President Cheney, 1/30/03
"Well, of course he is.”
• White House Communications Director Dan Bartlett responding to the question “is Saddam an imminent threat to U.S. interests, either in that part of the world or to Americans right here at home?”, 1/26/03
"I would look you in the eye and I would say, go back before September 11 and ask yourself this question: Was the attack that took place on September 11 an imminent threat the month before or two months before or three months before or six months before? When did the attack on September 11 become an imminent threat? Now, transport yourself forward a year, two years or a week or a month...So the question is, when is it such an immediate threat that you must do something?"
• Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld, 11/14/02
"Saddam Hussein is a threat to America."
• President Bush, 11/3/02
"I see a significant threat to the security of the United States in Iraq."
• President Bush, 11/1/02
Posted by: Anselm at June 17, 2008 05:53 PM (0Y/X+)
34
>>Yasin fled the United States after the bombing to Iraq, and lived as Saddam Hussein's guest in Baghdad until the invasion."
>Wow. But, but, Saddam had no ties to terror, BUSH LIED I TELL YOU.
Yasin, an Iraqi citizen, was questioned by the FBI after the 1st trade center bombing & released. He returned to Iraq. If you call being in prison being a guest of Saddam Hussein, he was a guest. Saddam Hussein offered to turn him over to the US after 9/11 but the US refused to accept him.
Posted by: Anselm at June 17, 2008 05:57 PM (0Y/X+)
35
(sigh) You're new, KnSD, so I'll cut you a little slack, but not a great deal, because these quotes were posted by me in another thread right here seven days ago... looking back at previous threads is sometimes a good idea, ya know.
Anyway, if, as you claim, Bush claimed that the Iraqi threat was imminent (and I, too, want to see your source for that), he was joined by a number of prominent Democrats:
"There is no doubt that Saddam Hussein's regime is a serious danger, that he is a tyrant, and that his pursuit of lethal weapons of mass destruction cannot be tolerated. He must be disarmed."
Senator Edward Kennedy, speech at Johns Hopkins School of Advanced International Studies.
"In the next century, the community of nations may see more and more the very kind of threat Iraq poses now -- a rogue state with weapons of mass destruction ready to use them or provide them to terrorists, drug traffickers or organized criminals who travel the world among us unnoticed.
"If we fail to respond today, Saddam and all those who would follow in his footsteps will be emboldened tomorrow by the knowledge that they can act with impunity, even in the face of a clear message from the United Nations Security Council and clear evidence of a weapons of mass destruction program."
President William Jefferson Clinton, address to Joint Chiefs and Pentagon staff.
So tell me, KnSD, did these prominent Democrats, one of them President at the time, also lie? Or is it only a "lie" when a Republican says it, but the "TRUTH!" when a Democrat does?
Posted by: C-C-G at June 17, 2008 06:02 PM (X5vKa)
36
>o tell me, KnSD, did these prominent Democrats, one of them President at the time, also lie? Or is it only a "lie" when a Republican says it, but the "TRUTH!" when a Democrat does?
They were given selective information by White House controlled sources, which they should have been more skeptical about. But you're avoiding the point.
The Security Council and the whole world agreed that Saddam had to be disarmed. So it voted to put inspection teams in. Which were working and getting cooperation. Blix said he would have the job done 'not in weeks nor in years but in months.' ElBaradei got the job done: he said no active nuclear weapons program.
Cheney said ElBaradei was wrong. Gave no evidence as to why, just said, he's wrong. And we invaded.
Posted by: Anselm at June 17, 2008 06:09 PM (0Y/X+)
37
Orion - as I am trying to get out of the office right now, I don't have time. But I will do my best. If I can find it, I will certainly let you know. If I can't, then I will certainly admit my mistake.
If I can ask though, what is BDS?
And yes, I dislike Bush immensely and I think he has been horrible for the country. But I dislike his politics, not the man. I don't doubt his intentions, just his actions.
You are not going to find me your typical Democrat. I tend to be somewhat conservative - for a liberal anyway. But most importantly, I try to look at each item individually, then see how it fits into the larger picture and then look to see if my logic and beliefs are consistent through my opinions. And if I discover that I have been wrong or inconsistent, or in some instances hypocritical, I adjust my thinking accordingly. And always, I try to keep in mind the kind of person I want to be and how I would feel in someone else's shoes.
So challenge away. It might be good for both of us.
And lastly, having a different opinion doesn't mean we can't debate and needle each other. I will do my best to be respectful. :-)
Posted by: KnSD at June 17, 2008 06:09 PM (tkDnR)
38
No wonder you use the term "vegetative" in your name, PVL... you clearly have the approximate brain of one.
The original post quotes Obama as saying:
...we were able to arrest those responsible, put them on trial.
And here you come with your statement:
...we tried and convicted all four of the 1993 WTC conspirators that we caught.
(emphasis mine).
Note, please, that Obama himself didn't restrict his comments to those "that we caught.," he said we had arrested and tried all of them.
In short, you're trying to put words in his mouth in a blatant attempt to cover his goof, and it ain't gonna fly around here. Go back to DailyKos, where I am sure you're considered "wise" by their standards.
Posted by: C-C-G at June 17, 2008 06:13 PM (X5vKa)
39
And this -
>If we fail to respond today, Saddam and all those who would follow in his footsteps will be emboldened tomorrow by the knowledge that they can act with impunity, even in the face of a clear message from the United Nations Security Council and clear evidence of a weapons of mass destruction program."
was after the expulsion of inspectors in 1997. He bombed them but didn't invade. Seems very smart in retrospect, doesn't it?
Posted by: Anselm at June 17, 2008 06:13 PM (0Y/X+)
40
They were given selective information by White House controlled sources, which they should have been more skeptical about. But you're avoiding the point.
Anselm, one of them WAS PRESIDENT HIMSELF when he said what I quoted above.
Now, are you gonna tell me that the all-powerful George W. Bush reached back in time and controlled the sources inside Bill Clinton's White House? Well, he can apparently control hurricanes--remember Katrina?--so I guess a little thing like time travel shouldn't bother him.
Pathetic. Truly pathetic. Go back to DU.
Posted by: C-C-G at June 17, 2008 06:16 PM (X5vKa)
41
"I have come to the inescapable conclusion that the threat posed to America by Saddam's weapons of mass destruction is so serious that despite the risks, and we should not minimize the risks, we must authorize the President to take the necessary steps to deal with the threat. There has been some debate over how "imminent" a threat Iraq poses. I do believe Iraq poses an imminent threat. I also believe that after September 11, that question is increasingly outdated....To insist on further evidence could put some of our fellow Americans at risk. Can we afford to take that chance? I do not think we can."
Senator John D. Rockefeller IV, Congressional Record, September 25, 2002, excerpted from the Phase 2 report by the Senate Intelligence Committee, Senator Rockefeller, Chairman, PG 105.
Posted by: Doug at June 17, 2008 06:19 PM (5ZjzM)
42
>Anselm, one of them WAS PRESIDENT HIMSELF when he said what I quoted above.
After the expulsion of UN inspectors, yes. He bombed Iraq. Quite successfully. No U.S. casualties. No endless occupation. Problem?
Regarding what Rockefeller said -- since that time, he's said he was fed a line, and we have lots of testimony from the feeders. But you know the real deal - how?
Posted by: Anselm at June 17, 2008 06:27 PM (0Y/X+)
43
Hey asselm, thanks for proving that President Bush did not, in fact, say that Iraq was an "imminent threat." Did he say it was a threat? OF COURSE, being as they were. Did he use some strong language, sure, he was building a case for a WAR. Jesus...As some earlier commentor said: Go back to DKos were all you double diget IQers baffle one another with your brilliance. Round these parts we deal in reality...
Posted by: pdxpunk at June 17, 2008 06:29 PM (Gp0vt)
44
Quit trying to change the topic, Anselm. Clinton wasn't misled by the White House, he WAS the White House. And he said Iraq was a threat.
Was President Clinton a liar, or was he telling the truth? Answer me that.
Posted by: C-C-G at June 17, 2008 06:31 PM (X5vKa)
45
C-C-G - might I point out that Obama didn't use the word "all" in what you quoted either. He didn't qualify it one way or another. Implying that he meant that we caught all of them, when that is not explicitly what he said is exactly the same as what you accuse PVL of doing when he qualifies Obama's position with "that we caught."
And is it really necessary to include the vegetative comment? Is that somehow supportive of your argument?
Thank you for letting me join in the discussion guys. I hope I can do it again soon.
And Orion, I haven't forgot that I will look for those commments. I know Anselm posted those quotes, but I will try to find quotes myself, too.
And Doug. I'm sorry, but how many people do you think heard Rockefeller say that? Not quite the same joining the chorus as it is in leading the choir. Anyone who came out in suppport of the imminence of the threat would have been responding to the comments by the administration. (And yes, I ahve qualified my earlier Bush comments to administration until I confirm for myself I heard what I think I heard).
Posted by: KnSD at June 17, 2008 06:33 PM (tkDnR)
46
"They were given selective information by White House controlled sources, which they should have been more skeptical about. But you're avoiding the point."
Really? So the rest of the world that thought he had it also pulled this same trick with their OWN intelligence agencies?
Give me a freaking break.
If Bush were half the liar you people make him out to be then he would have had Chem weapons planted and then found.
There will always be people in an organization that think one thing while a majority of the others think another. You go with the majority. Some times it bites you in the ass. Most of the time it does not.
Next please!
Posted by: Matt at June 17, 2008 06:35 PM (9V6Vj)
47
>Hey asselm, thanks for proving that President Bush did not, in fact, say that Iraq was an "imminent threat." Did he say it was a threat?
Oh, give us all a break. All of his spokesman used the word "imminent," verbatim, or even stronger words. Bush himself used words like "unique urgency." Why not explain why a threat of "unique urgency" is not "imminent."
>Did he use some strong language, sure, he was building a case for a WAR
D'uh. The question remains, was the war justified? Was it a good idea? We now know it wasn't. And he could and should have known, from Blix and ElBaradei, that the WMD threat wasn't there.
>Quit trying to change the topic, Anselm. Clinton wasn't misled by the White House, he WAS the White House. And he said Iraq was a threat.
You're the one trying to cloud the issue. Nobody, and certainly has said Clinton in 1998 was misled by the White House. He was reacting to Saddam Hussein expeling UN weapons inspector. And his military response was measured and highly effective.
Posted by: Anselm at June 17, 2008 06:40 PM (0Y/X+)
48
oops - "nobody, and certainly not me, has said that Clinton in 1998 was misled by the White House."
Posted by: Anselm at June 17, 2008 06:42 PM (0Y/X+)
49
KnSD, quit trying to throw red herrings. If you hear a police department spokesman say, "we have caught the bank robbers," the natural assumption is that they have caught all of them. If you later spot one of the bank robbers on your street, you therefore assume that the spokesman was incorrect.
It's not Friday, and I am not Catholic, so I have no use for the fish you're tossing.
Posted by: C-C-G at June 17, 2008 06:45 PM (X5vKa)
50
>>"They were given selective information by White House controlled sources, which they should have been more skeptical about. But you're avoiding the point."
>Really? So the rest of the world that thought he had it also pulled this same trick with their OWN intelligence agencies?
The rest of the world was also worried, which is why the Security Council voted to put the inspectors Saddam had expelled back in. Unanimously. They went in and went to work, and were reporting, effectively and we now know accurately. Cheney and Bush dismissed them. Why? What did they know the inspectors didn't?
>Give me a freaking break.
You seem to need one badly.
Posted by: Anselm at June 17, 2008 06:45 PM (0Y/X+)
51
Lying again, Anselm?
>o tell me, KnSD, did these prominent Democrats, one of them President at the time, also lie? Or is it only a "lie" when a Republican says it, but the "TRUTH!" when a Democrat does?
They were given selective information by White House controlled sources, which they should have been more skeptical about. But you're avoiding the point.
That's you at 6:09 pm today, according to the timestamp.
And now, you at 6:42 pm:
oops - "nobody, and certainly not me, has said that Clinton in 1998 was misled by the White House."
Was someone else pretending to be you, or are you a bald-faced liar? I vote for option 2.
Posted by: C-C-G at June 17, 2008 06:48 PM (X5vKa)
52
>KnSD, quit trying to throw red herrings. If you hear a police department spokesman say, "we have caught the bank robbers," the natural assumption is that they have caught all of them. If you later spot one of the bank robbers on your street, you therefore assume that the spokesman was incorrect.
They put the ringleaders on trial. One Iraqi citizen was questioned by the FBI, released, went back to Iraq, where he was imprisoned. The Iraqis later tried to release him to Bush/Cheney, who refused to accept him. Now he's still at large. That's Obama's fault??
And in fact, the criminal justice system worked quite well in the first bombing. How has Guantanamo worked better?
Posted by: Anselm at June 17, 2008 06:49 PM (0Y/X+)
53
I overlooked the reference to Clinton being president at the time. Mistake, yes. The facts remain as I stated them. Clinton was in 1998 reacting to Saddam kicking out inspectors, and took effective action. Democrats in 2002 were getting information from the White House that proved, after UN inspectors went in, to be wrong.
The White House refused to listen tot he inspectors. Unlike the rest of the world. Why? Calling me a liar (again, admit I overlooked the clause pres at the time) doesn't change this
Posted by: Anselm at June 17, 2008 06:55 PM (0Y/X+)
54
Anselm, the criminal justice system worked so well after the first bombing that we had, oh, let's see...
* Al-Qaeda related bombing of our embassy in Dar es Salaam, Tanzania (199

.
* Al-Qaeda related bombing of our embassy in Nairobi, Kenya (199

.
* USS Cole bombed while in port in Yemen (2000).
* And, of course, that second attack on the WTC in 2001. You may have heard of it.
After imprisoning people in Gitmo, tell me, how many successful Al-Qaeda attacks on our embassies, ships, or on American soil have there been, Anselm?
The results speak for themselves. You just gotta know what you're talking about.
Posted by: C-C-G at June 17, 2008 06:56 PM (X5vKa)
55
You might wanna read the whole text of the Rockefeller report (it's available online as a .pdf file, but CY's spam filter chokes on the link... it's at the senate "dot" gov site), Anselm.
It clearly states, even though the MoveOnMedia somehow forgot to mention this in their breathless reports, that Bush's statements pre-invasion were "generally supported by intelligence information."
Doing your research is a good idea when coming here to comment... because the regular conservative commenters here (like me) do so.
Posted by: C-C-G at June 17, 2008 07:00 PM (X5vKa)
56
>After imprisoning people in Gitmo, tell me, how many successful Al-Qaeda attacks on our embassies, ships, or on American soil have there been, Anselm?
In Iraq and Afghanistan, hundreds. This is a joke, right? But here's the poser: how many threats have we found out about in Guantanamo that we prevented? I mean, this is really any excuse will do country.
Do you really think Americans being killed in Iraq prevented Americans from being killed in the US?? If so, I have a bridge to sell you.
Ah yes - regarding the Cole As Clinton was leaving office, the attack on the Cole was traced to Al Qaeda. Clinton officials, and particularly Clarke, turned the info over to Bush people. Who did nothing. Even after the intelligence organization brief him in August: "Bin Laden determined to strike in U.S."
Posted by: Anselm at June 17, 2008 07:02 PM (0Y/X+)
57
In fact, Anselm, here's part of a previous comment of mine listing some of the statements in the Rockefeller report that the MoveOnMedia didn't think you needed to know about.
Some excerpts for ya (the page numbers I list are from the bottom of the printed sheets, Adobe Reader's internal page numbers are 1 page higher, so don't go whining that I say page 15 when Adobe says 16.):
Page 15: "Statements by the President, Vice President, Secretary of State and the National Security Advisor regarding a possible Iraqi nuclear weapons program were generally substantiated by intelligence community estimates, but did not convey the substantial disagreements that existed in the intelligence community."
Page 28: "Statements in the major speeches analyzed, as well as additional statements, regarding Iraq's possession of biological agent, weapons, production capability, and use of mobile biological laboratories were substantiated by intelligence information."
Page 37: "Statements in the major speeches analyzed, as well as additional statements, regarding Iraq's possession of chemical weapons were substantiated by intelligence information."
I won't bore you with more excerpts... those three should be enough. If you wanna read through 170+ pages of bureaucratese, you're welcome to.
There ya go. Keep spinning, it's fun knocking you down over and over again.
Posted by: C-C-G at June 17, 2008 07:04 PM (X5vKa)
58
U all know that Hussein Obama had committed a lot of flagrant errors in his speeches/comments and the "intelligent" pundits tried to conceal them so as not to show his ignorance. I've heard many of his mistakes and they made me laugh because his stupidity/ignorance on certain facts seem funny and at the same time idiotic. I hope the world and his cohorts will see him as he is. But then, to their eyes, the Americans would appear ridiculous for having a presidential nominee as unknowledgeable as he claims to be. How pathetic.
Posted by: avepa at June 17, 2008 07:04 PM (PYVg3)
59
Anselm, you're pathetic. I said, attacks ON OUR EMBASSIES, SHIPS, OR ON AMERICAN SOIL. Are you trying to say that Iraq and Afghanistan are American soil?
Maybe those are part of Obama's "57 states"?
Posted by: C-C-G at June 17, 2008 07:06 PM (X5vKa)
60
>It clearly states, even though the MoveOnMedia somehow forgot to mention this in their breathless reports, that Bush's statements pre-invasion were "generally supported by intelligence information."
If the Rockefeller report were the only source on this, you might begin to have a point, though "generally supported by intelligence information" is about as vague and minimal as conclusions get.
The fact is, we have lots and lots of other sources. But, sure, it's just the nasty MSM making things up because they hate Bush. Dream on.
Posted by: Anselm at June 17, 2008 07:07 PM (0Y/X+)
61
Please, Anselm, list for me some of those "other sources." I imagine that they're places like the Huffington Post, MoveOn, DailyKOS, and DemocraticUnderground, since you're clearly more familiar with their twisted fantasies than you are with reality.
Posted by: C-C-G at June 17, 2008 07:09 PM (X5vKa)
62
And there you go, copying biased bloggers.
Here's the text of the report:
) Conclusion 5: Statements by the President, Vice-President, Secretary of State and Secretary of Defense regarding Iraq’s possession of weapons of mass destruction were generally substantiated by intelligence information, though many statements made regarding ongoing production prior to late 2002 reflected a higher level of certainty than the intelligence judgments themselves."
That means, they exaggerated. You don't want to call it lie? Go ahead.
again:
(U) Conclusion 8: Statements by the President, Secretary of Defense, and Secretary of State that Iraq was developing unmanned aerial vehicles (UAVs) that could be used to deviler chemical or biological weapons were generally substantiated by intelligence information, but did not convey the substantial disagreements that existed in the intelligence community.
or this:
(U) Conclusion 4: Statements by the President and Vice President prior to the October 2002 National Intelligence Estimate regarding Iraq’s chemical weapons production capability and activities did not reflect the intelligence community’s uncertainties as to whether such production was ongoing.
Or this:
(U) Conclusion 12: Statements and implications by the President and Secretary of State suggesting that Iraq and al-Qa’ida had a partnership, or that Iraq had provided al-Qa’ida with weapons training, were not substantiated by the intelligence.
Or this:
(U) Conclusion 13: Statements in the major speeches analyzed, as well additional [sic] statements, regarding Iraq’s contacts with al-Qa’ida were substantiated by intelligence information. However, policymakers’ statements did not accurately convey the intelligence assessments of the nature of these contacts, and left the impression that the contacts led to substantive Iraqi cooperation or support of al-Qa’ida.
Posted by: Anselm at June 17, 2008 07:14 PM (0Y/X+)
63
>Anselm, you're pathetic. I said, attacks ON OUR EMBASSIES, SHIPS, OR ON AMERICAN SOIL. Are you trying to say that Iraq and Afghanistan are American soil?
The green zone in Iraq, and our embassy has been attacked repeatedly. As have our troops. But the point remains, you haven't shown how the Guantanamo jail has had anything to do with attacks taking place or not taking place.
Puzzle: who got this note a month before 9/11: "Bin Laden determined to strike in U.S." and ignored it?
>> it's fun knocking you down over and over again.
Big guy, you can play or you can keep score. Let people reading figure out who's knocking who down.
Posted by: Anselm at June 17, 2008 07:18 PM (0Y/X+)
64
Ahh... so you're saying that an exaggeration is a lie? Well, I guess President Clinton lied as well when he spoke about those same things. Oops, I forgot, he was misled by the White House. Nevermind that he was in charge of the White House at the time.
Here, I'll toss you a bone: some (not all, but some) of the judgments made regarding Iraq may have been a stretch given the intelligence information at the time. I admit that. However, we must also remember that the intelligence community completely missed the planning and build-up to 9/11, so just because something doesn't appear on some intelligence summary somewhere does not prove that it doesn't exist.
However, we're straying far from the original point. Obama wanted to claim that we'd caught and imprisoned all those responsible for the 1993 WTC bombing. We haven't. And all the spin in the world isn't gonna change that.
Posted by: C-C-G at June 17, 2008 07:23 PM (X5vKa)
65
Anselm, lemme as you this. How many bank robberies have not happened because we put some bank robbers in jail?
When you figure out a way to quantify that, I'll use that formula to quantify how many terrorist attacks haven't happened because we have people in Gitmo.
Posted by: C-C-G at June 17, 2008 07:26 PM (X5vKa)
66
"You're the one trying to cloud the issue. Nobody, and certainly has said Clinton in 1998 was misled by the White House. He was reacting to Saddam Hussein expeling UN weapons inspector. And his military response was measured and highly effective."
I am only quoting this one point because much of what you say is busted by this one point I am about to make.
So you agree that Clinton was right in reacting when Iraq expelled the inspectors? How about the many dozens of incidents where Iraqi forces fired on Coalition forces while patrolling the no fly (just in 01 and 02)? Couple this with the breaches in 1441, Resolution 660, Resolution 661, Resolution 678, Resolution 686, Resolution 687, Resolution 688, Resolution 707, Resolution 715, Resolution 986, and Resolution 1284 and many more.
Couple that with the available intel that much of the world agreed with that said they did have CBRN weapons, and the fact that a change in regimes had been doctrine since the Clinton administration. Yeah it was justified, and late. The UN should have rallied forces much earlier.
Posted by: Matt at June 17, 2008 07:53 PM (9V6Vj)
67
That was not gaffe. Obama saying that the Constitution is the law of the land and the President's duty is to uphold the law. Unless of course, you are Bush.
While you are correct in some of your statements about Yasim, he was however, one of many people involved in the bombing. To single him out as THE TERRORIST is false. Yasim fled to Iraq, where we have been for over 5 years yet we can't catch him. We can't seem to catch Bin Laden either.
Posted by: Jay at June 17, 2008 08:01 PM (GeGNw)
68
Well, Jay, Osama was offered to President Clinton, all gift-wrapped and everything. He declined the offer.
Are you sure you wanna go down that road?
Posted by: C-C-G at June 17, 2008 08:18 PM (X5vKa)
69
"Unless of course, you are Bush."
To finish your statement. Or Obama!
Posted by: Matt at June 17, 2008 08:22 PM (9V6Vj)
70
Well, I'm not sure what the score is, but this reader, a pretty middle of the road kinda person, sees Anselm getting pretty thoroughly trounced at each and every pirouette.
Posted by: J at June 17, 2008 09:48 PM (ZJEB6)
71
His facts are lousy, but that's the least of my worries. He looks directly at the facts of the 1993 and the 2001 WTC bombings, with the benefit of hindsight, and still comes to the wrong conclusions. His presidency will be disastrous.
Posted by: Marvino Guardino at June 17, 2008 10:05 PM (PyBDH)
72
First, I see that nobody is willing to take on the fact that U.N. inspectors were on the scene with facts -- that were ignored by Cheney and Bush.
Then we get this:
>However, we must also remember that the intelligence community completely missed the planning and build-up to 9/11, so just because something doesn't appear on some intelligence summary somewhere does not prove that it doesn't exist.
Again: it did not, not in the least: "Bin Laden Determined to Strike IN US, " report delivered to U.S. President in August, 2001.
I see that nobody has been able to post any factual evidence that Guantanomo deterred or prevented any attacks on the US.
>Well, I'm not sure what the score is, but this reader, a pretty middle of the road kinda person, sees Anselm getting pretty thoroughly trounced at each and every pirouette.
No specifics, no facts but sure, you're sure. Thank you for sharing.
Posted by: Anselm at June 17, 2008 10:57 PM (viUfj)
73
What an incredibly stupid man.
Posted by: Denny, Alaska at June 17, 2008 11:30 PM (7x+SO)
74
My first post here so I will be brief.
All of us paying attention to those dark days following the 9-11 attack clearly recall the difficulty being expressed with regard to combating Al Qaeda and it's organizaton.
Tens of thousands of trained terrorists in 60 countries.
How to fight that sort of enemy?
President Bush decided to kill a few birds with (in retrospect) one very expensive stone.
Phase One: Remove the Taliban controlled goverment in Afghanistan.
Mission Accomplished!
Phase Two: Establish Military bases in Afghanistan in cooperation with NATO along Iran's eastern boarder.
Mission Accomplished!
Phase Three: Attack Iraq and bring down that filthy, sadistic group of lunatics.
MISSION ACOMPLISHED (recall Pres. Bush on the aircraft carrier?)
Phase Four: Establish military bases along Iran's western boarder and stabilize Iraq.
Work in progress....but we do have a huge inventory of man and materials now in the real theater of war...
Phase Five: Create an attrative target for all who would like to do harm to United States of America through Jihad.
MISSION ACCOMPLISHED (recall Pres. Bush saying in so many words "You Jihad a__holes want some USA? Come get some!)
Honestly, there was no way to respect the 60 sovereign nations in fighting those virgin loving Jihadists if we were to attack them where they were so we had to entice them to come to us. "Bring it on!" seems to have done the trick. Heck, we even brought down Saddam as an extra added plus.
Today:
- We have nearly 100,000 battle hardened NATO and US military personnel along Iran's Eastern boarder along with tons of battle tested equipment.
- We have almost 200,000 battle hardened military personnel and well tested equipment arrayed along Iran's western boarder.
- We have circulated (over extended duty stays) more than a half million battle trained US Military personnel who can be called up at a moment's notice.
Doesn't it strike anyone as odd that our friends on the left say we are in no position...stretched too thin... to engage Iran as they try to perfect thier nuclear program.
If we are not in a position to confront Iran right now, what is it you think we need to do to get better positioned...?
I suppose we could move a carrier battle group into the gulf....errr...wait a sec here...we have three battle groups there now.
The most sophisticated military in the world, battle tested equipment, battle trained commanders, more than a half million battle hardened vets and military bases and supply chains established and protected...all around Iran.
...and all we hear from the left is that we are too weak to offend Iran....
You oddlings on the left should stick to fighting to let gay folks get married, ensure abortions are legal..and find new ways of taking my money and giving to your base voters (pardon the pun)and leave the job of protecting us from the real bad guys of the world to the grown-ups.
Your judgement appears flawed, silly and dangerous.
Oh...and by the way...your current meme of Sen. McCain being too old to be president...stomping all over the Hillary supporters wasn't damaging enough for you? Your now looking to throw away the Sr. Citizen vote too?
My apologies for my failure to be brief.
Posted by: StyroPhome at June 18, 2008 12:08 AM (boLGT)
75
Mr. Yankee,
You are either ill-informed or (more likely) disingenuous. There are six known perpetrators of the 1993 attack including: Ramzi Yousef, Mahmud Abouhalima, Mohammad Salameh, Nidal Ayyad, Ahmad Ajajand and Abdul Rahman Yasin . Five of the six were apprehended in foreign countries, extradited to the US, convicted in US courts and are serving longer-than-life sentences. As indicted in your piece, Yasin has not met with US justice. However, contrary to your assertion, Yasin was not Saddam Hussein's guest, but (after a yearlong period of freedom) a prisoner in an Iraqi prison. And, in fact there were several opportunities to have him conveyed from Iraq. Obviously, we did not take those opportunities and since the US invasion, his whereabouts are unknown.
Do you think so little of your readers to assume they can't undertake a simple google search to fact check your half-truths?
Posted by: monkeytime at June 18, 2008 01:43 AM (98aYP)
76
I have to say, reading these comments, that I am struck by the lack of civility on the part of many of the posters. Disagreeing about facts and interpretations is one thing; questioning people's intelligence and slinging insults is completely unnecessary. It's the kind of behavior that wouldn't be allowed in any elementary school classroom. I'm sure your parents raised you better, and I would hope you'd teach your children better, too. Note that I do not have a political bone to pick in this fight; I am not referring to posters of either political stripe.
Could we please consider our own behavior and the example it's setting???
Posted by: Laura Sympson at June 18, 2008 08:22 AM (hReHK)
77
Mix Xyanides and an acid and you get Hydrogen Xyanide gas
Posted by: Purple Avenger at June 18, 2008 08:54 AM (c55NW)
78
>Anselm, lemme as you this. How many bank robberies have not happened because we put some bank robbers in jail?
Nobody is calling for not pursuing, capturing and punishing enemies, for doing away with jails. We have lots all over the place. The issue is whether we are going to honor the rules set by our history and constitution, or disregard them because of fearmongering politiicians.
>>Doesn't it strike anyone as odd that our friends on the left say we are in no position...stretched too thin... to engage Iran as they try to perfect thier nuclear program. If we are not in a position to confront Iran right now, what is it you think we need to do to get better positioned...?
You should really tell the Joint Chiefs about all our unused military muscle, and how ready we are to go after Iran. They'll be very surprised. Tell the voters too: that's a really winner.
Posted by: Anselm at June 18, 2008 09:04 AM (viUfj)
79
A good site for the folks wanting to claim that the Bush admin was hyping up Saddam as a threat is http://www.whosaiditiraq.blogspot.com/.
It has a great many quotes from prominent Dems echoing the same concerns the Bush administration had. Some even go further in their claims than the administration.
Just some food for thought.
Posted by: Pundit Joe at June 18, 2008 10:01 AM (hXHgF)
80
Do you think so little of your readers to assume they can't undertake a simple google search to fact check your half-truths?
why would anyone fact-check such delicious propaganda ?
Posted by: cleek at June 18, 2008 10:17 AM (+dx2l)
81
>A good site for the folks wanting to claim that the Bush admin was hyping up Saddam as a threat is http://www.whosaiditiraq.blogspot.com/. It has a great many quotes from prominent Dems echoing the same concerns the Bush administration had. Some even go further in their claims than the administration.
We've been there and gone through that. The Rockefeller report and many other independent accounts from journalists have documented that the data was cooked and skewed before being presented to lawmakers, to not present dissenting or questioning views from the intellgence community.
And, again, there was an independent check available. The U.N. inspectors in Iraq were there investigating. They asked us for leads, and followed all they got. Empty holes. ElBaradei reached an (accurate) conclusion: no nuclear weapons program active. Blix said he'd have a definitive answer "not in weeks or years but months." Bush couldn't wait. But it's the Democrats' fault. Sure.
Posted by: Anselm at June 18, 2008 11:32 AM (0Y/X+)
82
Well, but what about Yasin having been in prison since 1994?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/2022991.stm
He certainly seems to have been lost in the shuffle since the war began.
Posted by: Teh Sadly at June 18, 2008 11:43 AM (cR1Au)
83
Anselm:
Care to tell us all how you've been earning a living since you lost your PR job with Saddam.
What a crock. Saddam imprisoned any number of terrorists including Abu Nidal, all who live in a secured luxury housing area. I know I saw this area in the mid 80s and saw the terrorist HQs in Baghdad. Do you imply these people couldn't travel freely were in jail with common criminals, couldn't freely communicate or meet with anyone they choose to?
Its sad to see the lies that are told here by people who have a very obvious agenda.
Posted by: Thomas Jackson at June 18, 2008 07:55 PM (LHaZf)
84
One more point for Anselm, then I am done with him.
Even allowing, just for the sake of the argument that we did capture, convict, and imprison all those responsible for the 1993 WTC bombing, there is one simple, inescapable fact that proves beyond any doubt that those actions did nothing to make America safer.
That fact is 11 September 2001.
Face it, the arrest, trial, and incarceration of those responsible in 1993 didn't stop the 2001 attacks.
Since 2003, however, there hasn't been a single, not ONE, successful terrorist attack within the United States of America.
I'd say that pretty well shows the difference between a law enforcement approach to terrorism and a military approach to it.
And now, Anselm, I am done with you. Good day, sir. I said, GOOD DAY!
Posted by: C-C-G at June 19, 2008 06:56 PM (Hc4y8)
85
Oh, did any of you pro-law-enforcement lefties here know that Bin Laden was indicted in 1998?
Yeah, law enforcement really helped keep Bin Laden from killing some 3,000 Americans.
Posted by: C-C-G at June 19, 2008 08:03 PM (Hc4y8)
86
"Face it, the arrest, trial, and incarceration of those responsible in 1993 didn't stop the 2001 attacks.
Since 2003, however, there hasn't been a single, not ONE, successful terrorist attack within the United States of America."
Count the years. 93 to 01, 01 to 08.
Posted by: Sean at June 19, 2008 10:01 PM (9V6Vj)
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They Never Change
Pfleger's baaaaack:
Two weeks after his controversial sermon on race sparked a national uproar, Rev. Michael Pfleger returned Monday to his office at St. Sabina Catholic Church, expressing gratitude to Cardinal Francis George and saying activism would always be a part of him.
Pfleger said he would wait to make further comments until mass Sunday, when he plans to address his entire congregation for the first time since George suspended him. St. Sabina, one of the most vibrant Catholic churches in the city, is predominantly African-American and draws nearly 2,000 worshipers.
"I'm good. I'll speak Sunday and give my talk then," Pfleger said as he sifted through a desk full of papers. "I'm grateful to be back and to do what I'm called to do. I'm grateful to the cardinal for letting me back."
When asked if he was the same "Michael Pfleger" as before, he said: "I'm me. I'm not changing. This is how I've been since I've been born. I'm not changing."
I find it refreshing that like the other radicals in Barack Obama's closet, Michael Pfleger is the same person today as he was yesterday, as he was more than 20 years ago when he first became a moral compass for Barack Obama. Jeremiah Wright, likewise, seems to have never veered from his course in the decades Obama followed him until now, even after those controversial views were exposed. These men have strong views and convictions that are unwavering. Their core values have apparently remain unchanged. Most of Obama's associates have also remained true to themselves.
Obama kicked off his political career at the home of domestic terrorists Bill Ayers and Bernadine Dorhn. The Obama campaign has tried to minimize their relationship, but the facts remain that Obama has extensive tied to Ayers.
Obama and Ayers served together for many years at the Woods Fund, and Obama was chairman of the Chicago Annenberg Challenge, a $50 million education grant project for which Ayers wrote the grant proposal. Steve Diamond at the blog
Global Labor and the Global Economy makes a
compelling argument that it was a concerted effort of the Ayers family, including terrorist Bill, his father Thomas, brother John, and Bill's Manson Family-admiring wife (and fellow Weatherman terrorist) Bernadine Dorhn that "made" Obama's poltical career:
Thus, we have one possible answer to the question: Who "sent" Obama? It was the Ayers family, including Tom, John, Bill and Bernardine Dohrn.
It is highly unlikely that a 30-something second year lawyer would have been plucked from relative obscurity out of a left wing law firm to head up something as visible and important in Chicago as the Annenberg Challenge by Bill Ayers if Ayers had not already known Obama very well. One possibility is that Obama proved himself to the Ayers's in the battle for local school control when he was at the DCP in the 80s.
Diamond also ties Obama's present Presidential campaign to other radicals, including the Students for a Democratic Society (SDS), a faction of which later became the Weathermen:
As it turns out, there are other ex-SDS types around the Obama campaign as well, including Marilyn Katz, a public relations professional, who was head of security for the SDS during the disaster in the streets of Chicago in 1968. She is close (politically) to Carl Davidson, a former vice president of SDS and longtime Fidelista, who is webmaster for a group called Progressives for Obama, that is headlined by other former 60s radicals like Tom Hayden and the maoist Bill Fletcher. Davidson and Katz were key organizers of the 2002 anti-war demonstration where Obama made public his opposition to the Iraq war that has been so critical to his successful presidential campaign. Davidson apparently moved into the maoist movements of the 70s after the disintegration of SDS.
None of these people have deviated from established characters and viewpoints that are unerringly radical in nature when compared to the traditional values of most Americans.
This web of radical associates strongly suggests that the actual substance of Barack Obama is quite different from the carefully-scripted character his campaign message machine has tried to forge in the media. It strongly suggests that his continual, inevitable surprise at the uncovered radicalism of his dearest friends and oldest contacts is entirely feigned.
The Obama campaigns attempts to minimize his
troubling, decades-long relationships with radicals is nothing more than more or less than the work of a campaign feverishly trying to hide a past that most conservative Democrats and independent voters would find revolting.
From his
absolutist views on the Second Amendment in favor of outlawing most common firearms, to support of a radical view of reproductive rights "too close to infanticide" that suggests babies who survive abortions
should be left to die, to a "dazed and malaised" return to
Jimmy Carter's failed economics, the greatest challenge to Barack Obama's campaign is consistently Barack Obama himself, and his requirement of us that we believe a lifetime shaped by and shared with the most radical fringes of society was a lifetime spent in the dark, not knowing who these people really are, unaware of the influence they had over him.
Barack Obama requires potential voters to accept that he doesn't know his friends, his family, nor himself. Should someone with such a stunning lack of awareness be President?
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
09:55 AM
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1
In many ways, the 60's radicals pervaded many existing institutions including the Catholic Church. Most of the priest pedophilia scandal can be traced to allowing these types into seminaries at the time. I would be very surprised if Fr. Pfleger did change his stripes. However, I wouldn't be surprised to see him run afoul of Canon Law up to and including being defrocked with one more over-the-top 'sermon'.
As for the other radicals in B(H)O's closet or openly supporting him, they are only a window into his true beliefs as you correctly point out.
Posted by: Mark at June 17, 2008 11:40 AM (4od5C)
2
I don't see how anyone can attend a Catholic church today and feel good about it, may as well attend Hussein O's radical racist church.
Posted by: Scrapiron at June 17, 2008 04:51 PM (GAf+S)
3
It's important to note just what had Cardinal Francis George suspend Rev. Michael Pfleger from his duties at St. Sabina Catholic Church. It wasn't what he said at Trinity UCC.
It was the endorsement that Pfleger gave Obama from the pulpit that same day. It was the possibility of action by the IRS for political activities within the confines of St. Sabina that triggered the action by the Cardinal.
Posted by: Neo at June 17, 2008 11:25 PM (Yozw9)
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To be clear.
It was the endorsement that Pfleger gave Obama from the pulpit of St. Sabina that same day.
Posted by: Neo at June 17, 2008 11:28 PM (Yozw9)
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Scrapiron,
Care to expound upon that statement?
Posted by: Mark at June 18, 2008 10:39 AM (4od5C)
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Chinese Company Develops "UFO"
Interesting, of course, but abductees say they feel like being probed again a half hour later.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
08:21 AM
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Posted by: Chris Muir at June 17, 2008 12:00 PM (Qn+aj)
2
Can someone please explain to me the origin of the 'Chinese food is not filling' joke? Because it seems to me after you've had duck, chicken, suckling pig, rice, tofu, green veges, sharks' fin soup, 4 seasons, fish, crab and prawns all in the same meal, you're stuffed. Or should be.
/Chinese
//Doesn't get it
///Compares 10 course meal to miserable Western setting of appetizer, mains and dessert, finds Western setting somewhat lacking
Posted by: Gregory at June 17, 2008 08:13 PM (cjwF0)
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June 16, 2008
POT MEET KETTLE: Obama Says Black Men Should Be Better Fathers
Frankly, I agree with the general sentiment. He's raised valid points few will argue.
That said, I did notice that Obama gave his speech at the Apostolic Church of God, and not Trinity United Church of Christ. Obama recently quit Trinity at roughly the same time it was discovered that Rev. Jeremiah Wright was refusing to relinquish control of the church, and lynching advocate Rev. Michael Pfleger issued forth his most recent offensive comments against Hillary Clinton in specific and white people in general in front of a congregation roaring their approval.
Someone should ask Obama if absentee fatherism is any worst than purposefully exposing their children to the hate speech of that radical church for nearly the entirety of their short lives. One doesn't have to be an absentee father to be a bad one, a point that a man closely aligned with a cadre of racists, conspiracy theorists, political radicals, anti-Semites, and domestic terrorists would no doubt rather ignore.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
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I had a different thought when I heard him; if absentee fathers are so bad, why is it he, Obama, a child of an absentee father, the candidate of his political party? Don't get me wrong, I'm not supporting the idea of absentee fathers - I just don't think he's the guy who should be preaching the message. The fact that he's in the position that he's in is an argument against two-parent families. Maybe I'm just nit-picking.
Posted by: Jonn Lilyea at June 16, 2008 12:54 PM (PsTGP)
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I fully support Senator Obama and his campaign to be the new Bill Cosby. Obama for Cosby in 08.
Posted by: BohicaTwentyTwo at June 17, 2008 08:20 AM (oC8nQ)
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Heh
I had roughly the same thought, BohicaTwentyTwo. When I watched clips of his delivery (the tone, the 'set of his mouth', and the 'looks to the crowd') I had the Cos running through my mind.
Posted by: Mark at June 17, 2008 09:25 AM (4od5C)
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@john - I would suspect that growing up without a father would give him insight into how difficult it was. The fact that he was able to succeed in a 1 parent home when many don't is a testament to the strength of the rest of his family and his own perseverance.
CY, Trinity United Church = dead horse. Its like bringing up over and over that GWB couldn't remember if he did Coke or not in college or where he was when he was supposed to be in the National Guard. Its jumped the shark...
Posted by: matta at June 17, 2008 10:09 AM (jRTMP)
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The most important question about Trinity has never been asked. Why does Obama believe in Black Liberation Theology? Why does Obama believe that Jesus blesses the superior Black person against the Evil oppressive White person? Until some reporter actually does his job and makes Obama explain why he attended this racist church for 20 years, this issue will remain.
In any case, Obama should learn to critize his own
absent black father. It's kind of digamous to criticize everyone else's absent black father while worshiping his own completely absent black father by writing a book dedicated to him.
Posted by: Roy Mustang at June 17, 2008 01:49 PM (sqP0c)
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I am not sure what kind of father would deny healthcare to an newly born infant but that person isn't fit to be in anyone's company much less lecture others about their personal conduct.
One might ask what kind of man allows his children to be in the company of people who one normally associates with police lineups, Nuremburg rallies, and communist cell meetings than the Rotary.
Posted by: Thomas Jackson at June 17, 2008 03:12 PM (LHaZf)
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Oh. Come. On. Let's be honest, we've all been to church. None of the kids there pay attention. I blame TV: the crutch of real absentee parents.
The whole Trinity thing is a dead horse. I say this not because I think Trinity is an unfair topic to mention — U.S. campaigns have been dirty ever since the election of 1828 — but because I like my campaigns fresh and exciting. What I'm trying to say is that everybody needs to find a new controversy. If the only thing the Republicans had against Clinton was "I didn't inhale," the 1992 election would have been really boring. Fortunately there was Gennifer Flowers, shady donors, draft dogging, etc. That was fun.
Posted by: Juan Manuel de Rosas at June 18, 2008 12:16 AM (IVQmE)
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I totally agree with what Obama said about absentee fathers, which is a first for me. Usually I think he's totally full of it and has no clue what he's talking about.
But I wish he hadn't said it to a church congregation. Why did he have to start preaching in church? Why is the democrat candidate able to get away with that? Because if John McCain were to hold campaign speeches in churches the left wing would have a fit. Especially the gay left wing. They'd all flip their wigs and say that church and politics shouldn't mix.
And they'd be right. But why don't they have a flipping fit over Obama campaigning at church?
Any church that hosts politicians to give speeches during campaign season should be stripped of its tax exempt status.
Posted by: Melissa at June 22, 2008 09:21 AM (1wydL)
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McClatchy's Dying: Who's Got the Will?
You could have seen this coming a mile away:
McClatchy Co., which owns The News & Observer newspaper in Raleigh, said Monday it will cut 10 percent of its work force in a move to save $70 million a year as the publisher continues to struggle to attract advertising dollars.
McClatchy, which also owns The Charlotte Observer, the Kansas City Star and Miami Herald, will trim about 1,400 employees. The staff reductions are part of a plan to reduce overall expenses by $95 million to $100 million over the next four quarters.
That is hardly surprising, considering we're in an environment where many print-based news outlets are fading, but perhaps McClatchy in particular wouldn't be fading as fast if they would try to address at least two points.
- Make an attempt to remove obvious and pervasive left-leaning political biases in reporting;
- find a less obnoxious and politically-charged slogan that the nutroots favorite, "Truth to Power."
The powers that be are
not amused with the company's business sense, and many readers are immediately turned of by McClatchy's editorial stance. A flailing company should try to shore up a reader base, not alienate potential readers and advertisers, who will simply find a less-obviously biased competitor.
Enjoy "speaking truth to power" McClatchy, all the way to bankruptcy.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
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McClatchy has been the worst in terms of anti-American, anti-military, anti-Iraq-liberation, anti-Afghanistan-liberation and anti-counterterrorism bias (and thats saying a lot given that the competition is the AP, reuters, al-Jazeera, the BBC, ABC, NBC MSNBC et al). So long liars, most will not be sad to see you wither and die.
Posted by: grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr at June 16, 2008 10:49 AM (gkobM)
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A very good analysis. Thanks for the link.
Posted by: locomotivebreath1901 at June 16, 2008 01:12 PM (WP0SD)
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McClatchey and New York Times have been absolute dogs over the last two years or so. In fact, if you had bought 100 shares each in McClatchy (MNI) and New York Times (NYT) a year ago, your $5,500.00 would be worth about $2,400.00 today, and it would qualify as a Motley Fool's "My Dumbest Move."
Posted by: Dave at June 16, 2008 02:42 PM (ykqBW)
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It's fine fun to laugh at the liberal papers as they lose money and shed staff, but they are not losing money because they are anti-conservative, and any shift would likely cause them to lose liberal readers more than they would gain conservatives.
They're losing money because they no longer get the advertising dollars (and, to a lesser degree, the circulation revenues) needed to support their (bloated) cost structure. And the reason for this lies not with advertisers punishing them for their liberal positions but rather because ad agencies would rather spend their ad dollars on this newfangled thing called the internet than on print products.
Posted by: stevesturm at June 16, 2008 06:45 PM (ixXP5)
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Sturm, the NYT made a huge effort to boost its internet buisness but no ones reading that either.
Posted by: grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr at June 16, 2008 08:38 PM (DqXz5)
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Fascinating, Steve.
Please tell me, how do you explain the New York Post being able to increase its circulation?
One of the few large papers to substantially increase its circulation in the latest report was The New York Post, which managed to squeak past its rival, The Daily News, by about 10,000 copies, and trumpeted the news today on a giant billboard in Times Square.
By the way, in case you weren't aware, the Post is owned by News Corporation, the same people that own the Fox News channel.
Maybe conservatism really does sell, hmmm?
Posted by: C-C-G at June 16, 2008 11:14 PM (X5vKa)
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When my local paper, The Sun Herald was purchased by McClatchy from Knight-Ridder the change was dramatic. It was like playing the "how long till game" in the comments sections at Huffpo. Opinions are inserted through out the articles. Facts were fuzzy at best. And any thing Military was so biased or just plain wrong I somtimes would go days and never even open the damn thing up. I cancelled last week and yesterday recieved my refund, Ironic aint it?
Posted by: D-lo at June 17, 2008 11:09 AM (4FSAp)
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June 13, 2008
Tim Russert Dead at 58
I've written hundreds of posts critiquing journalism, but have never had anything but respect for Tim Russerts' professionalism. He was what a journalist should be, and he will be missed.
Go with God, Mr. Russert.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
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Among the non-Fox media, Russert was the most... well... fair and balanced. He never tossed softballs at politicians and he always insisted on answers, bearing down if a politician acted squirrely.
For that reason alone, he will be missed, but listening to Hannity today and hearing the stories those who knew him told, I am sure he will be missed all the more by those whose lives he touched.
Godspeed, sir.
Posted by: C-C-G at June 13, 2008 06:15 PM (X5vKa)
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Bearing false witness against Scooter Libby is something I cannot forgive Russert of.
Posted by: Zelsdorf Ragshaft III at June 13, 2008 07:20 PM (gIZ6Q)
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Is there anyone out there now who will question democrats? Even though Russert rarely asked any follow up questions at least he asked the question in the first place.
Posted by: Capitalist Infidel at June 14, 2008 07:28 AM (kNqJV)
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al Sadr Crafting an Iraqi Hezbollah?
Via email from a trusted source, a VOI account. It looks like al Sadr is going to continue his Iranian-backed insurrection against the Iraqi government:
The anti-American Shiite cleric Muqtada
al-Sadr on Friday expressed intention to authorize setting up "cells
to resist the occupation", head of the political bureau of Sadr's
Movement said.
"The declaration by Sayyed Muqtada al-Sadr to form cells to resist the
occupation comes in full conformity with the approach of the
Sadrists," Sheikh Liwa Semaysam told Aswat al-Iraq- Voices of Iraq-
(VOI) on the phone.
The key Sadrist leader added that these cells will "have a written
authorization by Sayyed Muqtada al-Sadr to carry out their task, on
the condition that arms will only be in their hands for use against
the occupier and none else."
Sheikh Semaysam, a close aide of Sadr, provided no further details.
If true—and apparently,
it is—al Sadr is attempting to split
and sanction a military wing off of the Madhi Army and Iranian "Special groups" to continue insurgent operations, while making at least a face-value attempt to demilitarize the organization.
Intresting, isn't it?
Iran tried to infiltrate Iraqi government at all levels, along with militia groups and criminal gangs. Obviously, as PM Maliki's clearing out of Sadrists from Baghdad to Basra proved, the government route has failed, and the militia route is on the ropes.
As a result, al Sadr is apparently attempting to craft an Iraqi Hezbollah, entrenching his group socially as an Iranian-supported shadow government with it's own insurgent military wing. Iraq's security forces and government are far less fractured than those in Lebanon, so it seems unlikely that al Sadr's hopes will come to fruition, but the development does raise an interesting question, namely: is this the best Iran has left?
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
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Al-sadr must be killed.
Posted by: grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr at June 13, 2008 12:36 PM (gkobM)
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Grrrrrrrrrrrrr, perhaps the troops can use bullets coated in pig fat.
Posted by: C-C-G at June 13, 2008 06:16 PM (X5vKa)
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All I can say about Mr. al Sadar is where is
Carlos Hathcock when we need him????
Posted by: Gator at June 13, 2008 08:04 PM (uaTZE)
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Kill Sadr now, not tomorrow, now.
Posted by: Scrapiron at June 13, 2008 08:21 PM (I4yBD)
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We had our chance to take him down in 2004... the PTB decided not to as they didn't want to martyr (sp?) him... I got that from a guy who had Sadr in his Aimpoint... he was given direct orders to stand down. If we waste the Head Wierdbeard, the rest of the Turbaned Fuzzy-Wuzzys would just keep it up... it's sort of a game of "Religious Whack-a-Mole"...kill one and the next joker will pop up.
Posted by: Big Country at June 13, 2008 09:22 PM (niydV)
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Sooner or later, Big Country, they gotta run out of people who are stupid enough to try and go against the US Armed Forces.
Posted by: C-C-G at June 13, 2008 09:34 PM (X5vKa)
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Why the assumption that Maliki, who spent a few decades in Iran, and despite all his past statements, is not a friend of Iran's, or is a friend of ours? Why the assumption that Sadr, who did not spend a few decades in Iran, and despite all is past statements, is a friend of Iran's?
Posted by: cactus at June 15, 2008 06:07 AM (l3Fio)
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"Why the assumption that Maliki, who spent a few decades in Iran, and despite all his past statements, is not a friend of Iran's, or is a friend of ours? Why the assumption that Sadr, who did not spend a few decades in Iran, and despite all is past statements, is a friend of Iran's?"
Because it is, in fact, about pliability. Malaki (being in power through force of US arms) is compliant, if irritating. Sadr would be wholly in opposition to US goals. The old colonial game of demonise the nationalist is at play once more.
Actual reality is pretty much irrelevant, we are talking PR here.
Posted by: Rafar at June 16, 2008 08:39 AM (ej9g/)
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Che We Can Beleive In?
Nope, not concerned about liberal judges, at all.
(h/t
Gabriel Malor)
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
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1
I before E, except after C.
Posted by: Kevin at June 16, 2008 08:26 AM (OEF4E)
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No thanks, keep the Chénge.
Posted by: Kevin Baker at June 17, 2008 08:31 PM (apIl/)
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Krauthammer: Iraqis Have Done "Nothing;" Somehow Obama Has Done Less
And here's his sarcastic list of the "nothings" they've accomplished that "cut-and-run Barry" Obama tries to pretend haven't happened:
- Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki sent the Iraqi army into Basra. It achieved in a few weeks what the British had failed to do in four years: take the city, drive out the Mahdi army, and seize the ports from Iranian-backed militias.
- When Mahdi fighters rose up in support of their Basra brethren, the Iraqi army at Maliki's direction confronted them and prevailed in every town — Najaf, Karbala, Hilla, Kut, Nasiriyah, and Diwaniyah — from Basra to Baghdad.
- Without any American ground forces, the Iraqi army entered and occupied Sadr City, the Mahdi army stronghold.
- Maliki flew to Mosul, directing a joint Iraqi-U.S. offensive against the last redoubt of al-Qaeda, which had already been driven out of Anbar, Baghdad, and Diyala provinces.
- The Iraqi parliament enacted a de-Baathification law, a major Democratic benchmark for political reconciliation.
- Parliament also passed the other reconciliation benchmarks — a pension law, an amnesty law, and a provincial elections and powers law. Oil revenues are being distributed to the provinces through the annual budget.
- With Maliki having demonstrated that he would fight not just Sunni insurgents (e.g., in Mosul) but Shiite militias (e.g., the Mahdi army), the Sunni parliamentary bloc began negotiations to join the Shiite-led government. (The final sticking point is a squabble over a sixth Cabinet position.)
You would think that the media would do more to force Obama to recognize that his view of Iraqi is frozen in time in 2006. AFP, Reuters, McClatchy, the Associated Press, etc., all have journalists in the region. Many have multiple reporters, videographers, and photographers throughout the country of Iraq itself.
At least one of those news agencies, the Associated Press, has benefited directly and publicly from the new laws passed by the Iraqi Parliament that have largely been ignored in the press. Pulitzer-winning AP photojournalist Bilal Hussein, captured with a known al Qaeda leader, was released from prison several months ago directly as a result of Iraq's new amnesty law, and not, as the news organization would have you believe, because he was found innocent.
But the media refuse to push Obama and other Democrats to admit to their failure to recognize the massive changes sweeping Iraq since the 2006 elections.
Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid still doggedly insists that the U.S. "surge" is a continuation of Bush's original policies, and that strategically, tactically, and politically, nothing has changed. He still shrilly insists the war is "lost" acting as if the Sunni and Shia Awakening movements, Iraqi political advancement on both domestic and foreign policy fronts, and the impressive performance of Iraqi security forces successfully executing a cascade of large-scale operations, never occurred.
Nancy Pelosi presides over the other half one of the most unaccomplished Congresses in U.S. history, with the
lowest approval rates in history, currently a dismal 10.3%
lower than even George W. Bush's 29% approval rating. She take a similar route as Reid, insisting that there is no progress... but said if there was, it is because of the efforts of
Iran. She will not credit the American and Iraqi forces with their hard-won successes. Instead, she would give credit to those training and arming forces those fighting against the Iraqi government.
Neither Reid, nor Pelosi, nor their anti-war allies will concede progress in Iraq because they've thoroughly wedded their political futures to failure there, and have left themselves no viable escape routes. This means that Democrats have created for themselves a vicious trap, where for the good of their party, they have to pull against two democracies (the United States and Iraq), against freedom, and against peace.
They have created for themselves a hell where for their aspirations to come true, they must
hope for a failed state, crippled by resurgent brutality. The must hope that recent successes
change back for the worst. History may well well look back on the post-surge Democratic House and Senate of 2007-2008 as being the most anti-democratic Congress since similar Democrats (called
copperheads) attempted to concede the U.S. Civil War.
Barack Obama took the lead early in attacking the Iraq War, even when he was just a state Senator in Illinois and had no access to intelligence information to base that opinion upon. He doggedly stuck to that position through the worst of Iraq's violence in 2006, riding a cry of withdrawal and defeat to prominence, first in the U.S. Senate, and then within scant months of graduating from his mediocre stint in state politics, into the Democratic Presidential race.
His strident, unwavering opposition to the war is the entirety of his appeal; without the conflict, his resume of unaccomplishments and rote university-indoctrinated progressive politics make him an entirely conventional and uninteresting urban Democratic candidate, if one admittedly better at reading a teleprompter than most.
For this reason, Barack Obama is forced to continue running on a platform of failure in Iraq. He cannot acknowledge that his position on the war has been proven wrong. To make that concession—admitting that
John McCain was right to take the unpopular position of supporting the "surge" now that the situation has so radically changed in favor of success—is to admit defeat in the general election.
Instead, Barack Obama has hitched his entire political future to becoming a political Frankenstein. He combines the worst aspects of two Presidents reviled by many; Jimmy Carter's naive pacifism and horrific grasp of taxation and economics, with George W. Bush's dead-certain stubbornness, tightly-scripted and excessively-controlled (one might even say Rovian) public relations, arrogant detachment, and inflexibility.
Obama is a man wedded to a singular message, which he markets as "hope and change."
But his "hope" is reliant on a return of brutal sectarian and terrorist violence, the collapse of the first Arab democracy, and the extinguishing of freedom. His "change" entails a headlong and arbitrary retreat, regardless of what threats the ensuing security vacuum will cause in the lives of Iraqi men, women, and children just beginning to cautiously embrace a less violent, dictator-free society.
Barack Obama has staked his future on dragging two nations back into the past, into defeat. That is not a change we can accept from a man who has never shown at any point in his life that he is capable of being a leader.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
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Someone forgot to tell Hussein O what "he" Hussein O thinks this week.
Posted by: Scrapiron at June 13, 2008 08:24 PM (I4yBD)
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On a side note:
Checking out the Real Clear Politics link to Congressional approval ratings, I noticed that the major MSM outlets have not done a poll for over a month. And this is an election year!
Do you suppose that bad poll ratings for Congressional Democrats - like good news from Iraq - does not fit the official MSM narrative?
Posted by: Mwalimu Daudi at June 14, 2008 11:39 AM (xJxUK)
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Of course, whatever the Iraqis have done is because the Iranians have allowed it. Just ask the Dems.
Yep, those generous Iranians allowed the Iraqi army to beat their proxies all over Iraq... gotta love how wonderful those Iranians are.
/sarc off
Posted by: C-C-G at June 14, 2008 04:31 PM (X5vKa)
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As the dhimmis minimum wage increase throws teenagers and seniors out of work and consumers face 60 dollar fillups does anyone believe that the dhimmis are going to do well in November.
They took all the low hanging fruit in 2004 qnd 2006 now all those "conservative" dhimmis are going to have to explain why energy costs are going sky high.
Worse they're going have to explain how increasing capital gains and dividend taxation isn't going to impact on middle class voters.
November promises to repeat 1972 unless McCain continues to do his Carter imitation.
Posted by: Thomas Jackson at June 14, 2008 04:35 PM (LHaZf)
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Thomas, I begin to wonder if an Obama presidency wouldn't be good for the country, at least in the long term (it would be very bad for the country in the short term, of that there is no doubt).
Simply put, we're facing a group of voters who never lived through the Carter years, never had to watch the evening news tell us of the hostages in Iran that Carter wouldn't or couldn't do anything to get freed, never had to sit in gas lines (and on "odd" or "even" days, no less) to fill up, never had to deal with double-digit inflation. And when those of us who did live through those years tries to explain it to these young voters, well, we get the same expression we gave to our elders when they claimed to have walked so-and-so many miles to school in the snow--uphill both ways, even.
So, an Obama presidency would educate these young whippersnappers in precisely how bad an unprepared and unqualified lefty radical can be in the White House. Oh, sure, the media will try to spin it positively, but the reality will be very similar to the reality of the Carter years, and they won't be able to hide the fact that these young voters are sitting sipping espresso while waiting in a line of cars stretching out into the street just to get some gas.
Carter's presidency can be said to have laid the groundwork for the Reagan Revolution. Perhaps Obama's can lead to a second conservative revolution.
Worth considering, at least.
Posted by: C-C-G at June 14, 2008 07:44 PM (X5vKa)
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June 12, 2008
You Don't Want to Go There
Judging by all the links noted on Memeorandum to this Salon article, the left has decided to raise a huge stink about a Fox News caption labeling Michelle Obama as "Obama's baby mama."
There are two reasons they should drop this tempest in a teacup quickly. The first is that Michelle Obama has
referred to herself in similar terms ("My baby's daddy Barack Obama" is the same thing as calling herself "Obama's baby mama"

, making them look rather childish and petty.
The second is that they don't want to start a legitimacy argument related to this particular candidate. Barack Obama Sr.
never divorced his first wife Kezia Obama. His wedding to Ann Dunham when she was three months pregnant with the junior Senator was illegitimate, and so was the junior Senator. This isn't "new" news—the information has been
out there for anyone to see—and it shouldn't be that big of a deal, but his supporters shouldn't start conversations that they may not want to finish.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
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4-Star Admiral John S McCain. 4-Star Admiral John S McCain II. Captain Senator John S McCain III. Cadet John S McCain IV currently attending the Naval Academy.
vs.
A polygamist communist who abandoned his infant child. A communist woman who recieved food stamps while enrolled as a phD student. A "racist" grandmother who is afraid of agressive pandhandlers.
It's really amazing when you compare the two familes.
Posted by: Roy Mustang at June 12, 2008 01:34 PM (sqP0c)
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Ms. Malkin:
Calling someone "Obama's Baby Mama" is insulting and racist. It speaks to a racial stereotype and I am hopeful that you do not condone such behavior. Ms. Obama deserves an apology, as does anyone who heard your comment.
Now your on-line comment "There are two reasons they should drop this tempest in a teacup quickly. The first is that Michelle Obama has referred to herself in similar terms ("My baby's daddy Barack Obama" is the same thing as calling herself "Obama's baby mama"), making them look rather childish and petty.
The second is that they don't want to start a legitimacy argument related to this particular candidate. Barack Obama Sr. never divorced his first wife Kezia Obama. His wedding to Ann Dunham when she was three months pregnant with the junior Senator was illegitimate, and so was the junior Senator. This isn't "new" news—the information has been out there for anyone to see—and it shouldn't be that big of a deal, but his supporters shouldn't start conversations that they may not want to finish."
#1 If one refers to themselves by a certain term, it is not the same as others referring to you. It is not the same as my calling my wife "my baby's mama, mother, etc". It is calling another something and referring not in a cordial manner, but a manner meant to insult. One would think that with your ethnic heritage, you would be more understanding.
#2 Whether Barack is legitimate, you are legitimate, or anyone else, that does not speak to the legitimacy of the children. I cannot understand how you make that comparison. Your arguement is specious.
So, yes. I do not mind "going there". Your comment led to one of your readers to refer to Obama as a "polygamist communist who abandoned his infant child". Barack (Jr.) is no more of a polygamist or communist than yourself. Again, are you trying to visit the 'sins of the father" onto the son'?
He deserves an apology not an "I am sorry if you were offended" apology, but a heartfelt apology for using a racist term. A professional on-air personality should be held up to a higher standard then using phrases like that.
Your "tempest in a teacup" is a comment made by the creator of the tempest, and it is not a tempest to those insulted. It is a common view of those that make such comments to state that someone (else) is just being too sensitive. That view does not accept that others might see things differently.
Your "tempest in a teacup" is a comment made by the creator of the tempest, and it does not reflect the feelings of anyone that was insulted. It was an on the air comment made for public viewing (loosely speaking, slanderous) It is a common view of those that make such comments to state that someone (else) is just being too sensitive. That view does not accept that others might see things differently. Can you accept that others might see things differently than yourself? If not, doesn't that make you an "ugly American"?
Sincerely,
Iverson Bell Jr., MD
Posted by: Iverson Bell at June 12, 2008 02:10 PM (+94C3)
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In other words, Barak likes the "bad boys."
It's not a trait you want in your teenage daughter. And it's certainly not a trait you want in your Commander in Chief.
Posted by: Roy Mustang at June 12, 2008 02:34 PM (sqP0c)
4
The Obama's were a relatively trashy family, but hey, look what sonny has accomplished. Baby-momma is no insult, Dr. I. Its what the people say on the street. You don't talk to many ordinary, non-PhD Negroes, eh?
Posted by: ptg at June 12, 2008 02:42 PM (rVWj9)
5
Hmmm, let's check this out real quick:
"He deserves an apology not an "I am sorry if you were offended" apology, but a heartfelt apology for using a racist term."
Then you say this:
"Your "tempest in a teacup" is a comment made by the creator of the tempest, and it does not reflect the feelings of anyone that was insulted. It was an on the air comment made for public viewing (loosely speaking, slanderous) It is a common view of those that make such comments to state that someone (else) is just being too sensitive. That view does not accept that others might see things differently. Can you accept that others might see things differently than yourself? If not, doesn't that make you an "ugly American"?"
So, essentially, "racism" is in the eye of the beholder, yes? The neat thing about your idiotic post is that you've basically been hung by your own assertion: if the issue at play is merely one of perception based on the person perceiving it, you've emasculated your own argument very nicely. This kind of thinking is part and parcel of PC and the notion that there is no concrete meaning for anything, since pretty much anything you say could be 'viewed by others differently.'
In this case, I side with the original OP: this isn't and never will be anything more than yet more whining from the Obama campaign about non-issues. I humbly suggest that the more Obama (and the likes of you) play the race card, the more likely it is he will alienate broad swaths of the electorate (we Conservatives may be almost-numb to be called racists every other day, but the majority most certainly is not and is going to grow weary of hearing Obama cry wolf on this issue long before November rolls around).
Posted by: ECM at June 12, 2008 02:46 PM (q3V+C)
6
So, essentially, "racism" is in the eye of the beholder, yes?
Certainly! If the racist insults the 'victim' using a sterotype based on race. Yes! The racists ignorance may prevent him or her from seeing how his statements affect others, or he or she might not care. Why should the insulter be the one to decide what the insulted should accept?
The neat thing about your idiotic post is that you've basically been hung by your own assertion: if the issue at play is merely one of perception based on the person perceiving it, you've emasculated your own argument very nicely. This kind of thinking is part and parcel of PC and the notion that there is no concrete meaning for anything, since pretty much anything you say could be 'viewed by others differently.'
You seem to be talking to yourself. "hung by own assertion", "emasculating myself", "no concrete meaning". You explain nothing, you are just making statements. Please explain these statements. Ms. Obama is not a single unmarried African American female from the ghetto. That is the meaning of Baby Mama to people in the African American community. It is insulting whether you accept that or not.
In this case, I side with the original OP: this isn't and never will be anything more than yet more whining from the Obama campaign about non-issues. I humbly suggest that the more Obama (and the likes of you) play the race card, the more likely it is he will alienate broad swaths of the electorate (we Conservatives may be almost-numb to be called racists every other day, but the majority most certainly is not and is going to grow weary of hearing Obama cry wolf on this issue long before November rolls around).
I am not Obama, I am not a spokesman for him, I am an independent. Not a "ditto head". What is this race card you speak of and how am I throwing it? I made the statement that certain things have racial connotations. I hoe you can agree to that. I did not call dear Michelle a racist, I only said that certain things are insulting and have a racial connotation. I asked for an apology based on her making that statement.
In other cultures, thumbs up is an insult, the OK sign is another insult. Ignorance with refusal to accept other's cultural differences is impolite at best.
The likes of me? You sir, might be a lost cause. No race card, only asking for understanding of differences. Nothing more, nothing less. As a psychiatrist, I wonder if conservatism is truly an illness like racism, or is it just ignorance.
You don't know my background so do not assume my being in touch with some people in the African American (or many other) communities means what you believe. Assumptions are dangerous things.
Iverson Bell MD
Posted by: Iverson Bell at June 12, 2008 04:05 PM (+94C3)
7
Dr. Bell,
If you are indeed asking Ms. Malkin for an apology, why are you commenting on Confederate Yankee? Either you are confused about where this 'story' initiated, or you are simply a sock-puppet.
Furthermore, racism is not a disease. It is a mindset, a belief only wherein the believer thinks their group is better than some other group because of certain factors they consider important distinctions. As a psychiatrist, I would presume you would understand that distinction. Racism cuts 'both ways'. The most recent example of that is Sen. Obama's pastor Rev. Wright and Rev. Hagee (McCain endorsement, now rejected) words about Jews.
Finally, if racism COULD be classified as a disease, it could only be a societal one, not individual as in the "Jim Crowe South" of yesteryear.
Posted by: Mark at June 12, 2008 04:26 PM (4od5C)
8
Yeah, and John McCain once called his wife a trollope and a c***. I suppose they shouldn't be dismayed if Fox decides to caption Cindy McCain accordingly.
Posted by: d at June 12, 2008 04:30 PM (2+4A6)
9
Did you hear? Obama is a Muslim!
Sorry, I just like to spread gossip.
Posted by: d at June 12, 2008 04:47 PM (sqP0c)
10
d,
Your comments are extremely deep. /sarc
However, I did find your second one interesting for the following reason. I happen to work with several Muslims. On occasion, I discuss politics with them. In my last conversation (before HRC got out) I asked one lady, "Who do you like in the Presidential race?" Her response was "Obama". I asked her a basic follow-up of, "Why?"
Here's where it gets interesting.
She said, "Because he's half-Muslim and half-Christian." This from a woman who moved to the US about 25 years ago and has only visited the ME occasionally since. She is quite "Americanized", yet still identifies Obama as half-Muslim/half-Christian. NOT half-Black/half-White. I followed that question up a bit more generally with respect to her Muslim friends and asked, "So, who do the people at the mosque like and why?" Her response was exactly the same.
Moral of the story: in regards to Obama, Muslims do not look at ‘race’; they look at 'religion'. To them, he IS at least half-Muslim.
Posted by: Mark at June 12, 2008 05:07 PM (4od5C)
11
Barrack Hussein Obama was born a Muslim. His father was Muslim which, under Muslim law makes B. Hussein a Muslim. He states the Muslim call to prayer is the most beautiful sound he has ever heard. I have heard that call. Sounds to me like catterwalling, but then, I am not a Muslim.
Posted by: Zelsdorf Ragshaft III at June 12, 2008 05:14 PM (J5AYY)
12
Doctor Bell:
Thank you so much for your "diagnosis" of racism as an "illness." I would greatly appreciate it if you'd share the DSM-IV code for this "illness," so that I might properly research it. I am having trouble locating it in any of the DSM-IV resources online (and I know where lots of them are, I work for a not-for-profit health insurance provider--I won't name which one, but you'd recognize the name, I guarantee).
Posted by: C-C-G at June 12, 2008 05:59 PM (X5vKa)
13
I never noticed the color of the BHO supporters skin, but damn, its thin.
Posted by: grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr at June 12, 2008 06:30 PM (DqXz5)
14
Dr. Carl Bell in Chicago has proposed that "racism" be given a DSM code as a psychiatric diagnosis (possibly a personality disorder). So no, it is not an official diagnosis. It is more like a personality disorder in that those with it do not consider it a problem.
Posted by: Iverson Bell at June 12, 2008 09:18 PM (LkE20)
15
I'm sure you can provide me with a link to the proposal, Dr. Bell.
However, until it is added to the DSM, it is not considered an "illness," so in the interest of clarity, I'd suggest that you choose your terms more carefully, as befits a medical professional.
Posted by: C-C-G at June 12, 2008 09:21 PM (X5vKa)
16
Yet another psychological disorder to add to the already completely overloaded and over-hyped field.
Tell me, Dr., is there going to be a pill that will solve this new diagnosis like Ritalin for hyper-active children (ADD diagnosis)? Perhaps Cyanide will make a come back?
Also let us in on the inside secret of Dr. C. Bell and Dr. I. Bell.
Posted by: Mark at June 12, 2008 09:40 PM (KDHro)
17
Physician, heal thyself.
Posted by: pst314 at June 12, 2008 09:54 PM (WjPRb)
18
Physician, heal thyself.
Nail. Head.
Posted by: C-C-G at June 12, 2008 09:57 PM (X5vKa)
19
Won't let me give the addy, but:
from
(won't let the name go through, it's the commie news network) LIVE EVENT/SPECIAL
America Votes 2004
Aired November 2, 2004 - 22:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
BLITZER: We can take a look. Maybe he will and maybe he won't but she looks like she's about to introduce him. Let's listen in.
MICHELLE OBAMA, WIFE OF BARACK OBAMA: My baby's daddy Barack Obama. Yeah!
BARACK OBAMA, SENATOR-ELECT, ILLINOIS: Thank you, Illinois. Thank you. Thank you, Illinois. I don't know about you but I'm still fired up. I am fired up. Look at this crowd. Thank you, Illinois.
....
Tacky.
Posted by: Foxfier at June 12, 2008 10:55 PM (3aOlt)
20
Personality Disorders such as "antisocial personality disorder" are only treatable if the person thinks that he or she has a problem. The person usually refuses to believe that they have a problem. No medication and usually no treatment. Racism is similar in that the person believes that they are right and everyone else is wrong. Their own view of the world does not allow for any other opinions and considers others inferior and often to be feared because of the differences. The racism that I am speaking of, like personality disorders is different from the norms of society. This is not typical "Jim Crow" racism. It is individual opinion based on prejudice.
The 'official' DSM IV psychiatric diagnoses are being reviewed. Research allows for more specific and not ever-expanding diagnosis. But... my point is not to accuse anyone of being a racist, but of making an insensitive, incorrect, racially oriented, and stereotypical remark (a racist remark).
As was pointed out earlier though, anyone and any race can be racist.
Carl Bell MD is a psychiatric expert in Chicago. His expertise is violence in the community and prevention. He is not related to me.
Iverson Bell
Posted by: Iverson Bell at June 13, 2008 12:22 AM (a4550)
21
Listening to an Obama supporter babble about "racism" is always good for a Friday laugh.
Just so I understand this, if I'm white and think Obama would be a disaster of major proportions as far as being president is concerned, I must be a racist? It is to laugh all the harder.
Posted by: emdfl at June 13, 2008 04:44 AM (B+qrE)
22
I'm so sick of African Americans getting all mad if anyone else uses the same word to describe them as they use to describe themselves.
Why don't they make some sort of Ebonic Rosetta stone and send it to all of the major news networks so that everyone in the world knows exactly how to use ghetto vernacular properly. Of course by the time it reached the network, the meanings/context/syntax would have already changed, but that won't keep whoever from finding whatever insult that they can, where ever they can.
How dare "Dr." Bell try to say that he's not using the race card? How the hell are we supposed to know the exact nuance of "baby momma"? Is my name Tyrell? Is my right pant leg rolled up?
When Michelle and Barry did the fist bump, some idiot on CBSNEWS.com wrote a story about how the fist bomp goes all the way back to Africa, or some shit. Like anybody cares. But the Obama's were fine with that over reading of some phantom cultural history, that seems to be being made up on the spot, constantly. Who knows what African American tradition I'll be stepping on next week? I had no idea that every gesture, every movement, every crotch grab, is some sort of cultural touch stone.
Honestly Doc, why don't you write them all down, so in the future we know what the hell you're talking about.
In the meantime, when you call someone a white male, it's not an insult. Even if a black person says it.
Posted by: Dr.Why? at June 13, 2008 05:42 AM (kX5hh)
23
I think Fox's caption is fair as long as all politician's wives are called that. Laura Bush is no longer the first lady but should be introduced as Bush's baby mama. Introducing the President of the United States George W. Bush and his baby mama.....That doesn't seem like any kind of denigration at all, does it?
All the crap that CY wants to put out about Obama's dad and mom is the new conservative's code for racism. Its not a secret that more children are born out of wedlock when a minority parent is involved, but its not PC to say you won't vote for him because he is black but you can say, well I won't vote for him because he is illegitimate. Like again, Obama had a choice of who his parents were or what religion they were when he was born. Fox is simply trying to smear the candidate by implying the racism/illegitimate card when they don't introduce her as Obama's wife but twist her words by stating she is (only) the mother of Obama's children. Its lame...period.
Posted by: matta at June 13, 2008 06:59 AM (jRTMP)
24
"I'm so sick of African Americans getting all mad if anyone else uses the same word to describe them as they use to describe themselves."..."How dare "Dr." Bell try to say that he's not using the race card? How the hell are we supposed to know the exact nuance of "baby momma"? Is my name Tyrell? Is my right pant leg rolled up?"
African Americans, Irish Americans, Native Americans, all have different social strata within their own group. Just because a segment of the group uses a negative term to describe someone (witin their own group) does not make that behavior correct. Fox News and Michelle Malkin knew that the term is ***Not*** a term of endearment or an honorific. If I personally do not like the name "Tyrell", and call someone within my own group that, the other would understand the 'insult' (because of their own cultural background). Baby Mama may be a cute joke to some, but it is at best a tasteless title to give to someone that they are not familiar with and not within their own culture. In other words cultures accept certain behaviors from those within the group that are not acceptable from the 'outside'. All cultures do that. You don't have to like it, it may not be acceptable to you, but all groups do it.
Fox News staff understand that. Jackie Chan may get laughs for walking into an establishment and saying "My Ni##er" because he heard someone else say it. Most people understand that it is who uses the terms and how they are used.
The best example I can give is that McCain called his wife a "c&nt". Not a pretty term, but how do you think he would react if his best friend agreed with him and said "yeah she is a...". Then how do you think he would react if you called his wife that? If you went to your local bar or pub with your buddies and called one of them a name (jokingly) and then a stranger walked in and said the same thing, would the reaction be the same? Fox News essentially walked into our neighborhood and called Obama's wife a name.
No "race card", only human nature. You cannot know all of the nuances. I don't, no one does. "Baby Mama" is not a nuance. The people at fox know that. They are not using some cultural term of endearment for their wives.
So, "How dare I...?" not easily. Maybe not wisely. I am on a conservative blog, discussing the behavior of the 'owner' of the blog, in an environment that I have no experience with. I have been trying to explain general psychological terms and sociologic behavior to some people that probably don't want to hear it. Perhaps I should keep my opinions and explanations to myself. I am no permanent writer hear. I am only an unwelcome visitor (kind of like the dreaded substitute teacher).
Oh well, I do teach college students, medical students, and psychiatric trainees, and maybe I just enjoy talking to myself. "It is better to light one candle, than to curse the darkness". That is my explanation.
Iverson Bell
Posted by: Iverson Bell at June 13, 2008 07:14 AM (a4550)
25
Seems like the good doctor/professor is forgetting his oath: "First, do no harm." The candle indeed burns very dimly in his cloistered realm...
One would think that such a learned man would understand the futility of trying ad hominem attacks on a woman in a Conservative Blog to create Obama supporters--assuming (1) he is a doctor, (2) he hasn't been sampling the pharmacy in his spare time, and (3) he is still rational...
Posted by: jtb-in-texas at June 13, 2008 07:45 AM (IZLeA)
26
Good points, JTB. I should also point out, as my friend Mark has, that the "learned" man addressed his first comment to a person who, to my knowledge, has never posted on this blog. That in itself calls into question his intelligence and/or attention to details. The fact that just recently he again refers to this other person in a comment, and later in the same comment says he is discussing the "owner" of the blog, lends weight to the conclusion that he is absolutely clueless about just who's blog he is commenting on.
Posted by: C-C-G at June 13, 2008 08:02 AM (X5vKa)
27
Speaking of ad hominem attacks! Not one response to the gist of what I said. Hey, if you don't want a discussion about the material then so be it.
My error, confusion, mistake, was assuming that because the blog linked to Ms. Malkin's webpage, that she ran this blog. She referenced it earlier. Again, such is the dager of making assumptions.
I do not and cannot expect you all to defend or explain her opinions as this does not belong to her. Being 'old school', I ran a BBS years ago with a free flow of opinions (religion, politics, etc.). I agains 'assumed' that the rules of engagement were similiar. Wrong there too.
So, go ahead, attack if you feel that need. The teacher has made some mistakes.
Iverson Bell
Posted by: Iverson Bell at June 13, 2008 10:24 AM (+94C3)
28
Speaking of ad hominem attacks! Not one response to the gist of what I said. Hey, if you don't want a discussion about the material then so be it.
My error, confusion, mistake, was assuming that because the blog linked to Ms. Malkin's webpage, that she ran this blog. She referenced it earlier. Again, such is the dager of making assumptions.
I do not and cannot expect you all to defend or explain her opinions as this does not belong to her. Being 'old school', I ran a BBS years ago with a free flow of opinions (religion, politics, etc.). I again 'assumed' that the rules of engagement were similar. Wrong there too.
So, go ahead, attack if you feel that need. The teacher has made some mistakes.
Iverson Bell
Posted by: Iverson Bell at June 13, 2008 10:27 AM (+94C3)
29
Thank you, "Doctor," for demonstrating not only your ignorance but also your lack of proper reasoning. Permit me, "Doctor," to illustrate.
If this blog links to Fox News, as it has, does that mean Fox News runs it? If it links to NBC, as again it has, does that show evidence that NBC runs it? My, my, there are a lot of people "running" this blog.
A few moments worth of calm consideration would have shown this, I believe. However, "Doctor," you seem to have flown headlong into a hole of your own making, and a very avoidable one as well.
Also, there is the "About C.Y." link on the sidebar which would have provided information to keep you from stumbling, but you were too hot on the path of your righteous indignation at the idea that anyone would dare speak against Saint Obama, weren't you?
Oh, and the most damning piece of evidence is that anyone who knows the least little bit about blogs would realize that they're mostly independent of one another.
You've made quite the fool of yourself, "Doctor" Bell; my prescription is that you take some time and read without commenting, that you may learn about the blogosphere.
Posted by: C-C-G at June 13, 2008 10:48 AM (wKdud)
30
Thank you for your kind and reasoned consideration.
It is typical how you easily remark on my error and make absolutely no response to my argument.
I rushed "headlong' into - discussing - an insult. My mistake was in thinking that this site did more than just parrot an opinion and not discuss it. My latter responses were directed more at Fox (run by Roger Ailes former Nixon crony) than Ms. Malkin anyway. I guess my points are valid since no one has rebutted anything more than my admitted error about the blog.
I ran a BBS (Bulletin Board Service for you newbies) from 1983-1987). At the (preinternet) time, I had 13,000 calls by modem over 2 years and 300 regular contributors. I have since been a little too busy to do that. HeadBoard was(unlike this weblog) not for ad-hominem attacks, but people discussed those topics freely and without censorship. Conservatives and liberals alike contributed. I made the grievous error of assuming that this would be similar. As I said, courtesy is not your forte.
So, I readily admit to my ignorance of some things. Do you?
Iverson Bell
Posted by: Iverson Bell at June 13, 2008 11:17 AM (+94C3)
31
You are not the only one who remembers the days of 300 baud modems and BBSes, sir. That such familiarity also speaks ill of you, you apparently realize not; would you assume that a BBS referring to an article on, say, CompuServe was run by CompuServe?
No, sir, I've proven my point, and I'm done with you. All your frantic flailing is merely proving it all the more firmly for me, and for that I thank you.
Good day, sir. I said, GOOD DAY.
Posted by: C-C-G at June 13, 2008 12:01 PM (wKdud)
32
CCG, Good day to you as well. If you ever would like to email me, my email address is right here.
FYI, if you had gone to Malkin's site, saw something labeled "blog" and a list or responses with her name. One might assume that the first response on this page were hers. Nevertheless, that territory is covered and you seem to revel in that.
Alas, my "frantic flailing' proves my point that there were no responses to my discussion about racist statements vs racism. Be done with me, but the topic may continue to haunt you as it apparently bothers you now.
Just, be aware that it (racism) has always existed along with xenophobia. The only positive way to deal with it is to notice it upfront, point it out, discuss it, and be aware that other cultures might not laugh at the same jokes that you find funny.
Iverson Bell Jr., MD DFAPA
Board Certified psychiatrist
Posted by: Iverson Bell at June 13, 2008 12:17 PM (+94C3)
33
For your elucidation, Dr.
Bigot
Via Merriam-Webster.com
: a person obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices; especially : one who regards or treats the members of a group (as a racial or ethnic group) with hatred and intolerance
Since being a bigot, as defined above, includes the concept of ‘being intolerant to members of a group’, I declare - here and now - that I am indeed a bigot because I HATE bigots. Rather neat circle, don’t you think? Furthermore, I HATE green peppers. Gee, more bigotry on my part. Of course, that second ‘prejudice’ of mine isn’t against any other individual or group of humans.
I think, Dr. Bell, you are somewhat correct in your ‘free flow’ statement. The reason, I believe, in this case is because your errors are in presentation and definition. For example: Bigotry (the state of mind of being a bigot) is your contention, not racism. Your presentation elevates ‘racism’ to a higher order than bigotry.
Now, if you want to have a free discussion of bigotry, I’m all ears. Just you and me to start. Others may join in after we define the conversation. If, however, you simply imply those of us who have ‘attacked you’ in the comments, CY, and Ms. Malkin are fundamentally bigoted on ‘race’, then please do take yourself from this site.
Back to the discussion of bigotry now and a bit of background on me. I am of middle-class background. You would classify me as ‘white-male’. I classify myself as human. My parenting included being raised ‘color-blind’ and I remain so to this day. My personal belief on the word ‘racism’ is that the word - its connotations, and its definition - are that both are incorrect and/or incorrectly used. ‘Racism’ is a bigotry based upon ‘color of skin’ or, possibly, ethnic origination is more correct.
The reason I consider the use of ‘racism’ to be incorrect is my upbringing of color-blindness. I don’t give a damn what color any human’s skin or their ethnicity is. I care about the content of their character,actions, and words.
For a member of the psychological community to even propose a diagnosis of ‘racism’ to be on the order of a ‘psychological disorder’ cheapens both the profession and other diagnoses of real mental disorders such as schizophrenia. The reason I believe this is ‘bigotry’ is a perpetuated from generation to generation within societies – some as small as individual families (Hatfields/McCoys for example). It is also quite natural for one group (or individual) to entertain collective (or individual thoughts) of ‘envy’ when viewing another group’s (or individual’s) possessions, accomplishments, etc (the sayings “the grass is always greener on the other side of the fence” or “keeping up with the Joneses).
I find for you, a psychiatrist, to claim bigotry is or should be classified as a ‘mental disorder’ to be repugnant and against human nature.
Care to discuss this? If not, farewell.
As an addendum (since I wrote this before your last reply to CCG): your statement:
Just, be aware that it (racism) has always existed along with xenophobia. The only positive way to deal with it is to notice it upfront, point it out, discuss it, and be aware that other cultures might not laugh at the same jokes that you find funny.
verifies my point that a diagnosis of 'racism' being extraneous to the profession.
Posted by: Mark at June 13, 2008 01:10 PM (4od5C)
34
Paranoid personality disorder: DSM IV # 301.0
Paranoid Personality Disorder is a condition characterized by excessive distrust and suspiciousness of others. They may exhibit thinly hidden, unrealistic grandiose fantasies, are often attuned to issues of power and rank, and tend to develop negative stereotypes of others, particularly those from population groups distinct from their own.
Narcissistic Personality Disorder: DSM IV # 301.81
A pervasive pattern of grandiosity (in fantasy or behavior), need for admiration, and lack of empathy.
Racism in it's virulent form has characteristics of both. Both grandiosity, lack of empathy, and negative stereotypes of others, particularly those from population groups distinct from their own.
No I am not talking about people that don't like someone, but are able to work through those differences through familiarity. A "racist" by this definition might be Adolph Hitler or Tom Metzger. Let me be clear. I am not calling anyone here nor Ms. Malkin a racist or a bigot. No "race card"!
I am saying that unlike the stereotyped "PC", I only ask for some reasonable sensitivities to the differences of others. I ask that those around me not tell ethnic jokes or religious (anti-certain religions) jokes. I make no demands, ask for no laws, just a sensitivity to others. The real meaning of PC to me is this sensitivity. The term has been distorted and stereotyped to be silly and insulting.
We all may be hard wired to be xenophobic, but most can get past that through communication and familiarity. Tom Metzger with the WAR has no desire for any of that.
Iverson Bell
Posted by: Iverson Bell at June 13, 2008 01:55 PM (+94C3)
35
Iverson (if I may),
(these points will be out of order from your latest comment)
Racism in it's virulent form has characteristics of both.
Characteristics, yes. However, "paranoia" and "narcisim" are also 'human nature'. The extremes of those two are properly 'disorders'. However, I still cannot see ‘racism’ as being classified as one.
We all may be hard wired to be xenophobic, but most can get past that through communication and familiarity.
Agreed, hence the phrase "finding common ground". You also, however, seem to be stating that 'racism' (I prefer the term bigotry) 'may be hard wired'. This agrees with my previous post, "human nature" = "hard wired".
So, how is a new diagnosis of 'racism' going to help (from prior comment)
The only positive way to deal with it is to notice it upfront, point it out, discuss it, (snip) ...?
Do you agree or not agree with my earlier statement My personal belief on the word ‘racism’ is that the word - its connotations, and its definition - are that both are incorrect and/or incorrectly used. ‘Racism’ is a bigotry based upon ‘color of skin’ or, possibly, ethnic origination is more correct.?
Is racism being misused in your argument?
Political Correctness
(not taking the link)
(http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/Political%20Correctness
) : conforming to a belief that language and practices which could offend political sensibilities (as in matters of sex or race) should be eliminated
This definition is as close a one as I’ve found for my understanding of “being” PC. My understanding includes “being offensive to any person or group”.
As Foxfire posted: BLITZER: We can take a look. Maybe he will and maybe he won't but she looks like she's about to introduce him. Let's listen in.
MICHELLE OBAMA, WIFE OF BARACK OBAMA: My baby's daddy Barack Obama. Yeah!
BARACK OBAMA, SENATOR-ELECT, ILLINOIS: Thank you, Illinois. Thank you. Thank you, Illinois. I don't know about you but I'm still fired up. I am fired up. Look at this crowd. Thank you, Illinois.
Since the origination of this ‘story’ actually began with Michelle Obama’s introduction of her husband, is the use (or an extrapolation as in this case) of the same by other individuals or groups considered non-PC even though used by Michelle Obama first? How about ‘typical’ black usages of the word (don’t think CY will let me so I’ll mask it) ‘ni***r’ also non-PC? It has been shown on too many occasions to count that when a ‘white’ person uses that word they are demonized as ‘racist’, yet when a black person uses it they are within their ‘culture’. A distinct double-standard if there ever was one.
This is yet another reason a ‘racism’ diagnosis is farfetched at the least.
If being PC is your goal, Iverson, then you might complain about ANYTHING that could be taken as ‘offensive’.
The 1st Amendment gives each American the RIGHT to speak as they wish, with very few limitations. That is why the KKK and Nation of Islam can exist in the country along with the rest. To extrapolate a bit further, a diagnosis of ‘racism’ mental disorder could then be applied even further down the chain. Even unto and including any ‘offensive speech’ (written or otherwise).
While the 1st Amendment grants such a right to speak, it does not grant the right to not be offended.
I shall post this much and await your response most eagerly.
Posted by: Mark at June 13, 2008 03:05 PM (4od5C)
36
I will respond in full a little later, I am working now. I will reiterate what I said earlier. McCain (in 1992) payfully (?) called his wife a "trollop" and a "C*nt". He did this in front of a number of reporters. So be it. I am not disparaging him, only making a point.
He did it. Maybe his best friend or her best friend can call her that. Can I?
I am not part of their relationships. In the greater sense, if someone is in a pub like "Cheers", -literally "where everybody knows your name", they may insult each other playfully. They may say something particularly cutting. Should I be offended because I can't walk right in and call someone a name? I would imagine that I might get punched out by McCain or his wife if I called her a "c*nt" no matter how playful I thought it was.
Iverson Bell
Posted by: Iverson Bell at June 13, 2008 04:05 PM (+94C3)
37
Iverson,
Working, yes I'm doing that too, so understood. Reply in full when you are able.
My quick response to your quick response:
I am not part of their relationships. In the greater sense, if someone is in a pub like "Cheers", -literally "where everybody knows your name", they may insult each other playfully. They may say something particularly cutting. Should I be offended because I can't walk right in and call someone a name?
Of course you shouldn't be offended. The example is one of 'personal relationships' and racism is societal. Just like I've addressed you as "Dr." initially and now as "Iverson" (I did ask permission). This is how personal relationships progress. I showed you respect by using "Dr." as is befitting and then moved, with permission not denied, to first name. Societal relationships do not follow the same mechanism. Therefore, I submit your analogy to a 'Cheers setting' in this discussion is false.
Please try to answer why it is 'wrong' (read politically incorrect) for a group or individual to use Michelle Obama's words (or a logical extraction thereof) themselves as a descriptor.
Posted by: Mark at June 13, 2008 04:33 PM (4od5C)
38
I think that we see this differently. In the society (ethnic group) that I am part of, like "Cheers", I am amoung familiars, friends, or enemies, but still those that share some similar values and usually share some of the same history. "Where everybody knows your name". refers to a place where everybody is at least aware of cultural background. If we call each other "ni**er" (and I don't) then it is a self deprecating but humorous term. It is a very negative term that I refuse to use, but the context is teasing each other about our own value as humans. We were peers with other "ni**ers" not the property of. When we are called that term or "Baby Mama" by someone of the majority group or another group, it is very difficult for us to accept that term as a gibe amoung friends. As you said, "racism is societal". Such words used by the historically oppressive group are perceived differently by the historically oppressed. Racism can also be very personal as well - Tom Metzger can be a racist all by himself in a desert without a group supporting him.
Racism obviously still exists and the historically oppressed are reminded of it frequently - I can provide examples if needed. So, as I stated above, being referred to in the words "Baby mama" by a national news network is not the same as me making a disparaging comment about myself, or my spouse.
The previous statement about an official diagnosis of "Racism", points out that there are many similarities to personality disorders. A diagnosis does not excuse antisocial behavior of a "hitman" or a 'professional' thief. People with the diagnosis of Antisocial Personality Disorder are regularly discharged from the military, incarcerated, and should be avoided. They for example do not respect the values (or property) others. Racism like Paranoid Personality Disorder, often singles out a group based on differences - ethnic, religious, race, country, etc. A diagnosis is not ! a free pass to behave badly. It identifies the problem only. Many genetic diseases identify nontreatable problems.
Iverson Bell
Posted by: Iverson Bell at June 13, 2008 09:04 PM (y7alN)
39
Not differently at all, Iverson. We see it exactly the same, only from different perspectives. Allow me to use a couple specific personal relationship analogies: If my friend CCG introduces himself as a geek, as he does occasionally, by your logic he can claim to be offended if others, who (whom? I always forget that rule) he doesn't know, call him a geek.
My answer is ‘no’ to that. If one introduces oneself as “fill in the blank” then one does not have the right to claim offense if someone from ‘outside’ does the same.
For the other analogy, I often refer to myself as a ‘cripple’. I have done so in the presence of other ‘cripples’ who have ‘taken offense’ for themselves at the term. It didn’t matter to those people that I was only talking about myself and not them. They were offended ‘anyone’ would have the temerity to use such a ‘deprecating’ term, whether ‘self-’ or not. (I happen to actually BE a cripple thanks to MS.) Truly the term, when I use it, is self-deprecating and quite humorous – TO ME. I don’t give a damn what ‘other cripples’ or ‘normals’ might think when I say it. I also do not take offense when being called a ‘cripple’. In fact, it usually leads into an interesting conversation with someone when they are new to my life.
If a group OR an individual refers to themselves by a certain term, then they HAVE NO RIGHT to take offense when a member of a different group uses that term as a descriptor. The precedent has already been set by the self-described group, whether they ‘like it or not’.
Now for this specific case: Michelle or Barak have NO RIGHT to be offended when ‘their group’ has already used the terminology as ‘self-descriptors’ and then another individual/group uses the same or logical extrapolations. FSN, was not ‘out of bounds’ as you seem to be claiming…they were accurate within the scope of the referenced group/individual’s use of the term.
That, in a rather large nutshell, is our difference of perspective on the issue of the use of ‘Baby Mama” to describe Michelle Obama. You are attempting to use a double-standard that I refuse to accept since this double-standard, you see, is also a double-edged sword – it cuts both ways. Whether the ‘majority’ or the ‘minority’ use the “offensive” X after the ‘minority’ has already set the president – it matters not one iota ‘who uses it next’.
As part of the “black” community, you have abdicated honesty on this point whether or not you, personally use the term ‘ni**er’. Claiming to be ‘advancing the discussion’ is a waste of your breath because you HAVE NOT ATTEMPTED to find an equal partner for that ‘common ground’. You have defined the offensive X in your terms alone. By your own (or your group’s) perspective without any recognition of the ‘other’ group’s perspective you have unintentionally poisoned the ‘conversational well’.
And that paragraph is why ‘race-relations’ in the US are where they are today. “Honest and free-flowing”? – No. Skewed, twisted, and spun – Yes.
This is why ‘white folks’ as a group or individual are afraid of discussing ‘race issues’. They are afraid of being branded a ‘racist’. With the entire connotation that term currently holds, it is quite literally professional death for a white person in this country to be so branded. (You may even find some poetic justice in that turn of phrase since some runaway slaves were, quite literally, branded after being caught.) The best example of this is Sen. Trent Lott. If you need the specifics of that story, please ask as I presume you know the gist.
I appreciate your agreement that “racism is societal”. Thank you for being intellectually honest on that point. I do have a slight problem with the Tom Metzger statement. Basically it ignores “who taught Tom M to be a bigot?” One must LEARN bigotry as it is NOT inborn. Other emotions are yet you have already conflated two ‘disorders’ to attempt to arrive at a third of ‘racism’. The syllogism does not follow.
Have you ever watched small children of different ‘colors’ play together? Their disputes are never about “Hakim’s skin color” or “Joshua’s religion”. The mindset of racial bigotry is learned by children from several sources including but not limited to: parents, relatives, events, media of all forms, and their own life experiences. Thus, whether Tom Metzger is a racist or not becomes a moot point since you, obviously, refuse to look at the root cause of his ‘disorder’.
In order to prove to you the complete and utter failure of your premise I offer this personal experience:
The only time in my life I have ever felt discriminated against on racial grounds is when I was walking around Washington DC in 1986 and ended up about 3.5 blocks north of the Capitol building. I was wandering around looking at architecture and enjoying the balmy summer weather. Suddenly I had the distinct feeling of ‘eyes on the back of my neck’. So I stopped walking and looked at the people instead of the buildings. The best phrase I can think of to this day is “all I saw were eyes and teeth” and the people those belonged to were not happy with my presence. I felt like I did not belong there. In my nation’s Capitol! I, an American citizen within site of the Capitol building, felt I did not belong. Being a rather pragmatic young man at the time, I did an about-face and quick marched back toward the Capitol. If I did not do exactly as I had done, I felt I was in imminent danger of ‘something bad’ happening to me. No one said a word to me. No one smiled a friendly smile. They stared, malevolently. Obviously all the people I saw were black skinned. I also don’t remember a single female.
By your standard, all of those ‘blacks’ that day are racists.
Racism is indeed societal, Iverson. An individual ‘afflicted’ with this ‘disorder’ has been taught in one fashion or another. Examine the root cause of ‘racism’ and you’ll find the cure. Continue on your current path and even this humble conversation partner will become unavailable.
Posted by: Mark at June 14, 2008 03:38 AM (KDHro)
40
I believe that series of posts now 'defines the conversation' sufficiently. If you agree, Iverson, I hope others will post their own views. Providing, of course, our verbosity hasn't bored them to tears or put them to sleep

Posted by: Mark at June 14, 2008 03:54 AM (KDHro)
41
I admire your logic, though I don't agree with all of it. I will respond, and I will try to be more succinct.
Self dishonesty or hypocrisy does raise it's ugly head in all of this. No group (because of self hate or whatever) should denigrate itself. It is not intellectually honest for me to call myself a "geek" (as I too am referred as) and then be insulted by others. Groups in general do not think through things. By my own statement I should never call myself, my buddy, or my wife a "geek". If I do though, two wrongs do not make it right (or even Reverend Wright :-) . Most people (66%-70% according to one study by Piaget) are not fully capable of 'abstract thought'. Neither Fox, NBC, or my buddies (that understand the negativity of the term) should use the term. Call it courtesy.
Bottom line, whoever uses the term ("whomever?") and is aware that it is insulting, is as guilty as Michelle Obama. "Nappy headed ho" is another example (though much more extreme).
If I sit on a sofa and cross my legs, no big deal. If I have the sole of my shoe in the direction of another (in the US) no big deal. If I do this in many other countries, not a big deal unless in less forgiving company. It is an insult! If I did not know this and it was pointed out to me, I would apologize for my ignorance and try to avoid what I personally consider 'no big deal'. If I am aware of the insult (repeating a denigrating term or whatever) and I do it anyway, that is rude at its' best.
Iverson Bell
Posted by: Iverson Bell at June 14, 2008 08:59 AM (y7alN)
42
Thank you for the compliment, sir. Agreement is not necessarily needed with logic. It is either true or it is false. Prove the parts you don’t agree with are false and I will accept that. Otherwise, acceptance is required if the logic is true.
Remember this from my comment on June 13, 2008 01:10 PM?
Since being a bigot, as defined above, includes the concept of ‘being intolerant to members of a group’, I declare - here and now - that I am indeed a bigot because I HATE bigots. Rather neat circle, don’t you think?
You are using quite a bit of circular logic in your argument. Each cause/effect is built upon the previous and the argument returns in cyclical manner to each cause/effect. That is, quite frankly, THE problem with racism/bigotry on any side. They are self-perpetuating. They are also fed by the ‘offended’ group’s use of the exact same terms and stereotypes found offensive when the ‘offending’ group comments – using exactly what the ‘offended’ group says/does in their commentary.
Your ire was initially raised under that pretext. You were offended by the use of “Baby Mama” as a descriptor of Michelle Obama. Michelle, herself, has used similar terms to describe herself and her husband. You agreed above:
It is not intellectually honest for me to call myself a "geek" (as I too am referred as) and then be insulted by others.
Yet you took offense on behalf of the original user of that term.
Break the circle, Iverson.
Posted by: Mark at June 14, 2008 12:12 PM (KDHro)
43
Briefly. I am offeended by the term "Baby Mama". A number of my peers are offended by the term. Regardles of the number or percentage, quite a few people are offended by the term.
I do not use the term. "Geek" yes, but "ni**er", "Baby daddy", "Baby Mama", or other racially disparaging terms. Ms. Obama used the term. We find it racially offensive. Even Richard Pryor, and Malcolm X, saw that using negative racial descriptors were offensive and stopped using them.
It would be hypocritical for the Obama's to complain. It would also be hypocritical for McCain to complain about someone using the term "c*nt" or "trollop" (very old school).
'Iff' (If and only if) a group that does not use a (racially offensive) term finds it 'offensive' (a very subjective term indeed), and that group is denigrated by the racially offensive term by being of that particular racial or ethnic grouping, then it may be deemed offensive. I for instance cannot designate what an Inuit Eskimo should be offended by - it is up to that group.
One can either choose to accept that the group is offended or not. If one accepts that it is offensive, one can choose to ignore it and offend or be cognizant of that and sensitive and not offend.
The editors of Fox or any new network should be aware that some terms are offensive. No matter who uses it.
By the way, some racists are not taught to be that way. The paranoia is part of their personality and they choose to pick a particular group to be scapegoated. These are the people that I refer to as possibly having a diagnosis. Paranoid Personality Disorder is the term that best fits now (with traits of Antisocial, Narcissistic, and Borderline). Instruction and exposure to others will do little or nothing to change their minds.
Iverson Bell
Posted by: Iverson Bell at June 14, 2008 01:13 PM (sBcla)
44
My apologies for the spelling errors.
Posted by: Iverson Bell at June 14, 2008 01:16 PM (sBcla)
45
The "circularity" of the argument is an unfortunate product of racism. Minority groups (the Ainu Japanese, Native Americans, etc.) and groups that are subjugated for long periods (African Americans and the Indian Untouchables) often identify with the oppressor (not all people but some). They often try to look like the oppressor, behave like, and take on the values of, **at the expense of their own**. This creates a kind of self hate that is often passed along through the generations.
That does not make it acceptable to use self deprecating terms, but should make it more understandable. I grew up sitting in the back of movie theaters, being able to roller skate at the rink one day a week, not being able to use hotel swimming pools. In the 60s, apartments were not available to me once I showed up to rent, but were again available - by phone after I left. If one is told they are inferior, their parents are told that, and their grandparents are told that, some accept it.
That may be part to the reason we "play the dozens", "talk about our mamas", insult each other, and if we riot - burn our own neighborhoods. It isn't right, but it happens. Others of other groups do not need to participate in that.
Iverson Bell
Posted by: Iverson Bell at June 14, 2008 01:44 PM (sBcla)
46
And with those comments, my dear Iverson, you have completed and confirmed my entire thesis.
We agree re: FOX in this case. The use of the term was in very poor taste though not dissallowed. We agree it is up to any group to define what is offensive to them.
We agree that if a group or members therein use deprecation that has been labled by that group as offensive it is up the the group itself to correct the error.
We agree protesting about outside groups using those same terms is 'wrong' yet NOT dissallowed merely because the offended group "says so" and continues to use those phrases themselves.
We agree 'racism' is not a psychological disorder but a manifestation/symptom of several others combined with 'experience' in various forms.
Thank you for a very stimulating, honest, and educational discussion. You have gained great respect in my eyes, Sir.
Posted by: Mark at June 14, 2008 02:33 PM (KDHro)
47
dang you guys are deep,I give that round to Mark. I understood him better,thanks both of you.
Posted by: 1903A3 at June 16, 2008 09:16 AM (0JFRo)
48
Thank you, 1903A3. I must say I actually learned quite a bit in this discussion.
I do not know if there is a 'clear individual winner' in this sort of debate. The fact both sides and everyone reading it can gain some deeper understanding without having to deal with the acrimony usually associated is the true winning. I enjoyed this conversation more than most I've had on any topic for the past few years.
Kudos to Dr. Iverson Bell for being willing and most able to engage!
Posted by: Mark at June 16, 2008 11:36 AM (4od5C)
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June 11, 2008
Rallying for Defeat
John McCain is presumably learning a hard lesson as Democrats and their willing accomplices in the media unfairly rip him (yet again) over comments about Iraq taken utterly out of context.
The exchange that has Democrats licking their chops began when co-host Matt Lauer asked about the surge strategy in Iraq: "If it's working Senator, do you now have a better estimate of when American forces can come home from Iraq?"
McCain replied: "No, but that's not too important. What's important is the casualties in Iraq, Americans are in South Korea, Americans are in Japan, American troops are in Germany. That’s all fine. American casualties and the ability to withdraw; we will be able to withdraw. General [David] Petraeus is going to tell us in July when he thinks we are.
"But the key to it is that we don't want any more Americans in harm's way. That way, they will be safe, and serve our country and come home with honor and victory, not in defeat, which is what Senator Obama's proposal would have done. I'm proud of them. And they're doing a great job. And we are succeeding and it's fascinating that Senator Obama still doesn't realize that."
From that exchange, all Democrats heard was "No, but that's not too important."
The deceptively shortened quote was possibly taken out of context by ignorance, but far more likely by design. What McCain seemed to be saying is that arbitrarily-decided pullout dates (such as the 16 month "run for the exits" date favored by Obama) are asinine;
conditions on the ground should indicate when a withdrawal is feasible, and he thinks he'd have a better idea of when that might possible be the next time General David Petraeus briefs Congress in June.
Common sense, isn't it?
John "
find me a river" Kerry twisted McCain's words, perhaps filtered through a too tight magic hat, and claimed:
McCain's comment was "unbelievably out of touch with the needs and concerns of most Americans," saying that to families of troops in harm's way, "To them, it's the most important thing in the world."
Kerry claimed "an enormous, fundamental flaw in his candidacy for the presidency, which supposedly has hung on his strength as commander in chief and his understanding of foreign policy."
Kerry's foreign policy, like freshman Senator Obama's, is based upon the goal of losing the war, hoping that even at this late date a defeat could be portrayed as Bush's loss, not a concerted effort by the leaders the modern Democratic Party to cost their nation a war in the hope of establishing short-term political gains.
These Copperhead Democrats naturally view a desire for victory a "fundamental flaw," one that is "unbelievably out of touch" with their goals.
Ignored by the media in McCain's comments was his noting that Obama and many of his supporters still refuse to concede progress in Iraq, despite across-the-board gains.
Democrats have spent the past seven years excoriating George W. Bush for doggedly holding an absolutist view on certain issues, immune to acknowledging changing conditions. I find it highly amusing that they now rally around a political neophyte with many of the exact same personality traits.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
12:47 PM
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1
What would you expect from a coward and traitor like Hanoi John Kerry? He looks at McCain, a hero, and see's himself as important as a pimple on a knat's butt.
Posted by: Scrapiron at June 11, 2008 12:53 PM (GAf+S)
2
Whether we leave tomorrow or stay a hundred years in the end Maliki and Co. will be more allied with Iran than the USA, just as they've always been.
If you want a government independent of Iran Sadr is your best bet. Even though he hates Americans he has sad he'd be happy to hire our oil field service firms to pump Iraqi oil.
Posted by: markg8 at June 11, 2008 01:30 PM (7xxF4)
3
And what's with the desperation to have bases in Iraq? We already have bases in Afghanistan, Bahrain, Kuwait, Qatar, Oman, Turkey, Uzbekistan, Kyrgyzstan, and elsewhere. Why keep pushing for bases in Iraq when it gives Bin Laden talking points in his recruiting videos?
Posted by: markg8 at June 11, 2008 01:37 PM (7xxF4)
4
John McCain is presumably learning a hard lesson
Maverick? Learn a lesson? Doubtful.
Posted by: doubleplusundead at June 11, 2008 02:25 PM (M+GMZ)
5
[[If you want a government independent of Iran Sadr is your best bet]]
Bwahahahahahahah.
We need bases in Iraq to carry out the operations that have been part of the amazing sucess of the surge. Murthas bombing runs flown from Okinawa just wouldnt have worked.
I doubt that Maliki and Co are good buds with Iran given that Iran is blowing up Iraqis.
You may have missed the mass anti-Iran demonstrations that followed ahmadinajads last visit to Iraq.
Posted by: grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr at June 11, 2008 02:28 PM (gkobM)
6
markg8, before you leave a comment and let the whole world know how ignorant of fact you are, you should (1) get your facts straight, and (2) inform yourself about the subject you opine about.
Sadr has been living in Iran. He is an Iranian puppet. His own followers are abandoning him.
Take a look at a map. To leave Iraq without securing permanent bases there would be a giant strategical failure.
Iran may wish to, even expect to dominate Iraq after we leave, but to think that the Iraqis want them to is ludicrous. There is little love lost between Iraq and Iran or have you forgotten the bloody, costly 8 year war they fought not so many years ago?
Iraq was always a more sophisticated, more secular society and as their nationalism grows and they are becoming more used to being out from under the iron-fisted dictatorship of Saddam, they are liking their freedom. They aren't going to trade Saddam for the Iranian mullahs, despite how much you moonbats might like them to.
Perhaps you missed the remarks by the Anbar Sheik this week during his visit to Washington.
Posted by: Sara at June 11, 2008 02:31 PM (Wi/N0)
7
"No, but that's not too important. What's important is the casualties in Iraq."
Translation:
"We have unlimited bodies to throw in Iraqi meatgrinder, but we need to keep the casualties low so we can stay there for one hundred years."
John McBush
Posted by: David at June 11, 2008 03:02 PM (UEoYe)
8
I think you meant McCain, as that's his name. I fixed it for you.
----
CY, I noticed you used the word Copperhead.
Hammer. Nail. Copperhead.
Posted by: brando at June 11, 2008 03:10 PM (LXoqQ)
9
Almost anytime I hear Democrats speak of the military, it's as wards of the state, another interest group to be bought off by and cared for with other people's money.
Almost anytime I hear Democrats speak of war, it's as if the goal of war is merely to end it as quickly as possible. I've heard plenty of Democrats propose plans for Iraq -- Okinawa, anyone? -- but I haven't heard one yet speak of a plan for victory. War to Democrats is something to be ended, not something to be won.
Posted by: Diffus at June 11, 2008 03:33 PM (MR/ge)
10
"No, but that's not too important. What's important is the casualties in Iraq."
Accurate translation: Since we are winning the war and US casualties are way down theres no reason not to stay in Iraq and finish crushing al-Qaida and the Iranians trying to expand their influence. It would be a lot like the US troops still in Korea, Germany and Clintoons quagmire in Kosovo.
Posted by: grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr at June 11, 2008 03:39 PM (gkobM)
11
Ahh yes, the old Iraq "will be more allied with Iran than the USA, just as they've always been." stupidity shows it's ignorance again.
Saddam's last words of warning to his "People" was not fight the Americans, or drive out the infidel. . . it was Beware of the Persians. Because the Iraqis (mostly Arabs) and the Iranians (mostly Persians) have been so friendly with each other throughout history, they have basically been at war with each other from time immemorial.
Posted by: JP at June 11, 2008 04:36 PM (Tae/a)
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Sara,
Sadr has been living in Iran.
Sez who? The same people who told us Iraq had WMD?
He is an Iranian puppet.
Your gullibility is really starting to show. You need to read more than DOD and Bush Administration press releases.
His own followers are abandoning him.
He has a movement and as such they don't always take orders from him. Especially when it's not in their financial or regional benefit to do so. But again if you're taking fools like Condi Rice or criminals like Dick Cheney at face value that's a problem.
Take a look at a map. To leave Iraq without securing permanent bases there would be a giant strategical failure.
I suppose every war supporter has to strive for a pony of some kind. Now permanent bases are the justification for the war and continued occupation? You look at a map. We've got bases all over the middle east. We don't need bases in Iraq.
They're not going to let our oil companies pay them 15% for their oil anymore than the Saudis do.
The only failure will be the political one for the Republican party which in case you haven't noticed
lost that debate long ago. The American people are going to exact the price for that failure and all the lies and corruption that go along with it in November. The harder you try to figure out some face saving way to sell this mess as salvageable the more Republicans we'll turn out of office.
Iran may wish to, even expect to dominate Iraq after we leave, but to think that the Iraqis want them to is ludicrous.
I agree. If Maliki cozies up too much to the Iranians Iraqis will throw him out of office and elect Sadr. If Bush was smart he'd offer to let the Iranians and Syrians take over the briar patch
and let them get their soldiers blown up for a change. See how they like it. I doubt they'd take him up on the offer because they're not that stupid.
There is little love lost between Iraq and Iran or have you forgotten the bloody, costly 8 year war they fought not so many years ago?
Why yes, I remember that war, it ended 20 years ago. I also remember we fought a war against Germany that ended in 1945, but I guess in your alternative universe Volkswagon utterly failed trying to sell Beetles here in the 1950s and 1960s because US citizens still hated Germans.
Seriously though visits to the holy shrines of Najaf and Karbala for the Shiite high holy days by busloads of Iranians are the second biggest business in Iraq since the invasion. Granted that's not saying much since there's still about a 60% unemployment rate in Iraq but Iranians are thrilled to see the holy sites and welcomed by their Shiite brethren who sell them souvenirs and house and feed them. From what I read it's like Mardi Gras without the booze and debauchery.
Iraq was always a more sophisticated, more secular society
You can thank Saddam Hussein for that. For all his many faults he believed in lots of education funding for both men and women and didn't have much use for religion. Like his role model Stalin.
and as their nationalism grows and they are becoming more used to being out from under the iron-fisted dictatorship of Saddam, they are liking their freedom.
So let's give it to them. They're itching to run their own country and pump their oil.
They aren't going to trade Saddam for the Iranian mullahs, despite how much you moonbats might like them to.
You think anyone is going to try and invade and occupy Iraq after we leave? You'd have to be dumber than Bush to try it.
Posted by: markg8 at June 11, 2008 05:18 PM (7xxF4)
13
Just what we need, more idiocy from Waffles Kerry.
Posted by: William Teach at June 11, 2008 05:24 PM (F0Zxa)
14
Speaking of waffles here's McCain on Charlie Rose Nov. 27, 2007:
ROSE: Do you think that this — Korea, South Korea is an analogy of where Iraq might be, not in terms of their economic success but in terms of an American presence over the next, say, 20, 25 years, that we will have a significant amount of troops there?
MCCAIN: I don’t think so.
ROSE: Even if there are no casualties?
MCCAIN: No. But I can see an American presence for a while. But eventually I think because of the nature of the society in Iraq and the religious aspects of it that America eventually withdraws.
You can listen to the whole clip here:
http://thinkprogress.org/2007/11/28/mccain-korea-withdrawal/
Interestingly enough he goes on to say the key to it is getting US troops off the streets of Baghdad
and Kirkut (sic) and other Iraqi cities which was Casey's "hide on our bases" strategy to keep US casualties low for the 2006 US elections before the surge.
Posted by: markg8 at June 11, 2008 07:04 PM (7xxF4)
15
Cy are you just going to let the claims posted here go unchallenged?
Posted by: Zelsdorf Ragshaft III at June 11, 2008 10:42 PM (J5AYY)
16
[[Sadr has been living in Iran.
Sez who? The same people who told us Iraq had WMD? ]]
Go git your tinfoil hats.
[[He is an Iranian puppet.
Your gullibility is really starting to show. You need to read more than DOD and Bush Administration press releases. ]]
Yes, be like the liberals, only read the NYT and only watch Olberdouch. Dont forget, "This war is lost" (hat tip Harry Reed).
[[We don't need bases in Iraq.]]
Yes we do. Missions from bases in Iraq made the surge such a success. Murtha style bombing runs from Okinawa would not have worked!
[[From what I read it's like Mardi Gras without the booze and debauchery.]]
The pilgramages to Najaf will certainly allow the oppressed Iranians to see life in democratic Iraq, but I think a huggy kissy relationship between the theocracy of Iran and the people of Iraq is unlikly given the fact the Iranians keep blowing up Iraqis with IEDs.
[[You can thank Saddam Hussein for that. For all his many faults he believed in lots of education funding for both men and women and didn't have much use for religion. Like his role model Stalin.]]
Untill his started sucking up to Islamists to bolster his regim. I wonder if the women dying in his rape rooms conforted themselves with the thought that female literacy in Iraq was a little higher than Iran and Sudan?
[[They're itching to run their own country and pump their oil.]]
News flash. Their democratic government is running their own country and they are pumping their own oil at rates greater than pre-liberation.
[[You think anyone is going to try and invade and occupy Iraq after we leave?]]
No, becausee we have trained their military to be the best in the region and, unless some far left demtards get their way, will have bases in and a long term security agreement with Iraq.
Posted by: grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr at June 11, 2008 11:23 PM (DqXz5)
17
Seriously there's no more proof that Sadr has been living in Iran than the big IEDs are made there. The US military was going to make a big splashy display of those mines awhile back for the press and then cancelled it because there was no evidence they were made in Iran.
Yes, be like the liberals, only read the NYT and only watch Olberdouch. Dont forget, "This war is lost" (hat tip Harry Reed).
I don't read much of the NY Times since Judith Miller got caught in cahoots with Chalabi. Like Olbermann though. BTW it's spelled Harry Reid.
[[We don't need bases in Iraq.]]
Yes we do. Missions from bases in Iraq made the surge such a success. Murtha style bombing runs from Okinawa would not have worked!
The surge worked? Tell it to the Iraqis. Where's the reconciliation?
George Bush January 2007:
A successful strategy for Iraq goes beyond military operations. Ordinary Iraqi citizens must see that military operations are accompanied by visible improvements in their neighborhoods and communities. So America will hold the Iraqi government to the benchmarks it has announced.
To establish its authority, the Iraqi government plans to take responsibility for security in all of Iraq's provinces by November. To give every Iraqi citizen a stake in the country's economy, Iraq will pass legislation to share oil revenues among all Iraqis. To show that it is committed to delivering a better life, the Iraqi government will spend $10 billion of its own money on reconstruction and infrastructure projects that will create new jobs. To empower local leaders, Iraqis plan to hold provincial elections later this year. And to allow more Iraqis to re-enter their nation's political life, the government will reform de-Baathification laws, and establish a fair process for considering amendments to Iraq's constitution.
America will change our approach to help the Iraqi government as it works to meet these benchmarks. In keeping with the recommendations of the Iraq Study Group, we will increase the embedding of American advisers in Iraqi Army units, and partner a coalition brigade with every Iraqi Army division. We will help the Iraqis build a larger and better-equipped army, and we will accelerate the training of Iraqi forces, which remains the essential U.S. security mission in Iraq. We will give our commanders and civilians greater flexibility to spend funds for economic assistance. We will double the number of provincial reconstruction teams. These teams bring together military and civilian experts to help local Iraqi communities pursue reconciliation, strengthen the moderates, and speed the transition to Iraqi self-reliance. And Secretary Rice will soon appoint a reconstruction coordinator in Baghdad to ensure better results for economic assistance being spent in Iraq.
Sorry wrong again.
[[From what I read it's like Mardi Gras without the booze and debauchery.]]
The pilgramages to Najaf will certainly allow the oppressed Iranians to see life in democratic Iraq, but I think a huggy kissy relationship between the theocracy of Iran and the people of Iraq is unlikly given the fact the Iranians keep blowing up Iraqis with IEDs.
According to the US military in Iraq it's Sunni whackjobs mostly from Saudi Arabia who blow up Iraqis.
[[You can thank Saddam Hussein for that. For all his many faults he believed in lots of education funding for both men and women and didn't have much use for religion. Like his role model Stalin.]]
Untill his started sucking up to Islamists to bolster his regim. I wonder if the women dying in his rape rooms conforted themselves with the thought that female literacy in Iraq was a little higher than Iran and Sudan?
If you spellcheck that it might be worth responding to.
[[They're itching to run their own country and pump their oil.]]
News flash. Their democratic government is running their own country and they are pumping their own oil at rates greater than pre-liberation.
Once again tell it to the Iraqis. A third of Iraqi oil revenues are skimmed off by gangs or within the government. With the corrupt Saddam and Bush administrations as roll models and mentors that's to be expected.
[[You think anyone is going to try and invade and occupy Iraq after we leave?]]
No, becausee we have trained their military to be the best in the region and, unless some far left demtards get their way, will have bases in and a long term security agreement with Iraq.
Hahahahaha! The best in the region. You're funny.
Bush is trying to hold $20 billion in Iraqi government cash hostage in NY banks unless they sign Cheney's oil agreement and SOFA. And you wonder why they hate us. Here's news flash for you. A base treaty that the US Senate hasn't agreed to isn't worth the paper it's printed on.
Now if you'll excuse me I think I'll leave you deluded folks who can't spell to your own devices.
Posted by: markg8 at June 12, 2008 12:22 AM (7xxF4)
18
markg8:
(Point 1)
Sara,
Sadr has been living in Iran.
Sez who? The same people who told us Iraq had WMD?
USAToday Says So
He is currently in Iran, having spent the past year there studying under a hard-line cleric who was an early proponent of the Iranian revolution in which Ayatollah Khomeini assumed dictatorial control, but al-Sadr said last month that religious leaders should not play politics.
That also takes care of your next claim (Point 2):
He is an Iranian puppet.
Your gullibility is really starting to show. You need to read more than DOD and Bush Administration press releases.
(Point 3)
His own followers are abandoning him.
He has a movement and as such they don't always take orders from him. Especially when it's not in their financial or regional benefit to do so. But again if you're taking fools like Condi Rice or criminals like Dick Cheney at face value that's a problem.
LATimes
"I had faith. I believed in something," Lami said of his days hoisting a gun for Sadr's Mahdi Army militia. "Now, I will never fight with them."
So much for that claim too. Read the entire article and you will see several ex-Sadr loyalists saying basically the same thing about “his movement”.
(Point 4)
Take a look at a map. To leave Iraq without securing permanent bases there would be a giant strategical failure.
I suppose every war supporter has to strive for a pony of some kind. Now permanent bases are the justification for the war and continued occupation? You look at a map. We've got bases all over the middle east. We don't need bases in Iraq.
They're not going to let our oil companies pay them 15% for their oil anymore than the Saudis do.
This claim is simply a ridiculous statement on your part. Of course not securing ‘permanent bases” would be a STRATEGIC FAILURE. That’s basic military sense. Your strawman argument of paying them 15% for their oil is also ridiculous. Iraq is a member of OPEC as is Saudi Arabia. They are getting record pay for that oil. In other words, the US or “our oil companies” have never gotten that kind of a deal. Why don’t you bring out the old “No war for oil” tripe? Oh, I forgot…gas prices in the US (and all over the world) are at record levels except in the countries that subsidize them.
(Point 5)
The only failure will be the political one for the Republican party which in case you haven't noticed lost that debate long ago. The American people are going to exact the price for that failure and all the lies and corruption that go along with it in November. The harder you try to figure out some face saving way to sell this mess as salvageable the more Republicans we'll turn out of office.
I happen to agree with you that the Republicans will lose seats in Congress. However, I completely disagree with your reasoning. Corruption has been rampant on both sides of the aisle. Remember the name William Jefferson ?
I think I’ll stop there for now since destroying your first 4 arguments and agreeing on next 1 with my stated caveat is enough for one night.
Posted by: Mark at June 12, 2008 01:07 AM (KDHro)
19
markg8,
Don't throw spelling stones when you fail, albeit to a much lesser degree, in the same respect:
From the above post:
With the corrupt Saddam and Bush administrations as roll models and mentors that's to be expected.
The word "roll" in this case is spelled "role". I'm certain that was simply a proof-reading error by your exalted self.
Posted by: Mark at June 12, 2008 01:20 AM (KDHro)
20
"To leave Iraq without securing permanent bases there would be a giant strategical failure."
So these statements were lies then?
U.S. Ambassador Zalmay Khalilzad, August 14, 2005:
"We do not seek permanent military bases in Iraq. Our goal is to help Iraq stand on its own feet, to be able to look after its own security, and to do what we can to help achieve that goal."
Condoleezza Rice, April 4, 2006
"I would think that people would tell you, `We're not seeking permanent bases really pretty much anywhere in the world these days.' We are, in fact, in the process of removing base structure from a lot of places," Rice replied.
I mean, obviously they were, I'd just like to hear you say it.
Posted by: Rafar at June 12, 2008 09:08 AM (ej9g/)
21
[[Seriously there's no more proof that Sadr has been living in Iran than the big IEDs are made there.]]
Seriously, HIS OFFICE admitted it.
[[Seriously there's no more proof that Sadr has been living in Iran than the big IEDs are made there.]]
Actually Harry Weed.
[[Like Olbermann though]]
Of course you do, hes a nut and lives in Libtard fantasy land.
[[The surge worked? Tell it to the Iraqis. Where's the reconciliation?]]
Err, only in the massive grass roots down turn in violence, cross sectarian reconcilliation, rejection of al-Qaida by he Sunnis, meeting of most diplomatic goals set by the US and the layoing down of arms by former insurgents. Seriously, you need to expand your news sources beyond Olberdouch.
[[According to the US military in Iraq it's Sunni whackjobs mostly from Saudi Arabia who blow up Iraqis.]]
According to the US military in Iraq its mostly Iranians who who fund the now hated JAM. Al-Qaida? Come on. They are getting destroyed by the Iraqis. They are so 2006 in terms of their role in Iraq.
[[If you spellcheck that it might be worth responding to.]]
Ahahahah. "Your spellings poopy", The last resort of someone getting spanked in an argument.
[[A third of Iraqi oil revenues are skimmed off by gangs or within the government.]]
Sweet. In the absence of any hope in winning this discussion you make stuff up. How MSNBC of you.
[[Hahahahaha! The best in the region. You're funny]]
Really. Well see who invades Iraq in the coming years,. I suspect no regional powers will for fear of the major arse kicking they will suffer.
[[Now if you'll excuse me I think I'll leave you deluded folks who can't spell to your own devices.]]
Dont leave mad, just leave
Posted by: grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr at June 12, 2008 10:22 AM (gkobM)
22
Rafar,
The statement in question is: To leave Iraq without securing permanent bases there would be a giant strategical failure.
I added this: Of course not securing 'permanent bases' would be a STRATEGIC FAILURE. That’s basic military sense.
As my interpretation of Sara's comment pertained specifically to the military and not diplomatic ends. If this interpretation is incorrect, Sara, please clarify for me.
In simple terms, "permanent bases" is actually quite relative. The US has had many "permanent bases" in most, if not all, of the countries we liberated/conquered/protected since WWII. For example (via Wiki): Tokyo Japan, Tachikawa Air Base (where two of my brothers were born) is now a Japanese Air Base: Tachikawa and Aviano Italy, Aviano Air Base (where I spent four years of my life) is now a NATO base: Aviano Air Base. Both bases are rather "permanent". However, neither remained US bases for the duration of that "permenancy". There is still a US presence in Aviano as noted in the .mil link above, however, I am not certain about Tachikawa. Tachikawa was initially a Japanese Army base.
Therefore, the diplomats may make the claim of "we do not seek" while the military is still going to build "permanent bases".
I'm absolutely certain both you and markg8 now understand the meaning of the phrases in question. I'm also certain you will continue to argue the moot point.
Nuanced enough for you Rafar?
Posted by: Mark at June 12, 2008 10:24 AM (4od5C)
23
Slight correction to the above - the links did not come from wiki since CY's engine doesn't allow wiki links

...which I forgot. So, I put in better sources.
Posted by: Mark at June 12, 2008 10:28 AM (4od5C)
24
Harry Reid yesterday said that we need to pull our troops out of Iraq because we are in the middle of an intractable civil war. It's nice to see that he has not departed from his war is lost, civil war, narrative the way some other wishy washy dems have who have actually acknowledged the military and political progress of the past year.
You go Harry, keep those eyes closed. Next up, keeping gas prices high!
Posted by: daleyrocks at June 12, 2008 10:54 AM (i/fLn)
25
Lesson? Never allow your opponent's reaction to dictate who you will say. Second guessing yourself is much worse than your opponent dishonestly twisting your words out of context.
Posted by: Roy Mustang at June 12, 2008 01:40 PM (sqP0c)
26
I wonder whether markg8 ever reads any current information on Iraq.
Posted by: daleyrocks at June 12, 2008 04:48 PM (i/fLn)
27
I wonder whether markg8 ever reads any current information on Iraq.
Nope. To do such would cause him intense mental anguish, therefore, he closes his mind to the facts.
Posted by: C-C-G at June 12, 2008 05:47 PM (X5vKa)
28
I did attempt to make certain I only used recent information from 2008 sources for my links in the refutation comment.
I also tried to use links from such bastions of Conservatism and Republicans like USA Today and the LA Times. /sarc
Posted by: Mark at June 12, 2008 05:52 PM (4od5C)
29
Mark8ball:
You have every right to demonstrate the depth and breath of your knowledge; education; and experience. Now having demonstrated that we will need a microscope to measure it will you go back to your old job as Baghdad Bob.
There is no need to parade your ignorance as if it were a virtue.
Posted by: Thomas Jackson at June 12, 2008 11:30 PM (LHaZf)
30
FYI people - Markg8 is almost certainly the same troll who talked about beating a contributor to Protein Wisdom "until [his]... skull shatter[ed]". Said contributor had caught him in a lie about US troops' enlistment rates, & called him on it. Aside from what it revealed about about his honesty, it was nice to know that Mark would rather kill people who disagree with him than the people who'd saw his head off in a heartbeat.
http://proteinwisdom.com/?p=8723
Posted by: 9-of-Diamonds at June 14, 2008 01:14 PM (5dwll)
31
My fear about the upcoming election is that Senator McCain, determined to be a maverick, will lose the election through stubborn pride--hubris, as the ancient Greeks called it. To win, he needs to do, at minimum, three things:
(1) Hammer Obama hard, long and often on his insane and continuing determination to see America defeated in Iraq, to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory. Americans don't like to lose, particularly when they're only a yard from the goal line.
(2) Hammer the Supreme Court (and Obama) over its recent decision giving constitutional rights to terrorist murders captured in foreign lands in the act of killing American soldiers and innocents (and by the way, dump the close Gitmo nonsense. Do you really want terrorist murderers in prisons throughout the US?).
(3) Hammer Obama, Pelosi, Reid and all the Dems over drilling. Fully support drilling in ANWR, off the coasts, and in producing oil anywhere and everywhere within our control. Support nuclear plants, building refineries, and other potentially worthwhile alternatives, but get with the program. We can't fix things by hoping for miraculous technologies that likely won't manifest themselves in our lifetimes. Drill can and will help, substantially, and in the short term.
McCain can clearly differentiate himself from Obama and the Dems with these three issues. If he does not, he essentially aligns himself with them and alienates his base. If he does this, many independents will likely decide that if both candidates are liberals, they may as well go with the genuine article.
If Senator McCain really believes that this is an important election, that America's security and economic future are on the line--and they surely are--he needs to drop the hubris and support policies that will actually work.
Posted by: Mike at June 14, 2008 08:18 PM (BUK9V)
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Get Your Racist Checklist Here
Here you go, haters.
I'll have you know this does
not help Michelle Obama's children.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
11:23 AM
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June 10, 2008
Welcome Back Carter
Despite the hopes of Democrats, the economy isn't going to tank, at least not unless Barack Obama
gets into the White House.
While the media would like to help along the meme that McCain's financial plan of low taxes and lowered government spending is a continuation of Bush's economy, that is fiction. McCain's policies are in line with Ronald Reagan's successful conservative economic plans; of the two Presidential candidates, it is Obama's plan that is more like those practiced by Bush.
The bloated government and increased spending seen under the Bush Administration is horrific from a fiscally conservative standpoint,
and a prequel to what would occur if the ultra-liberal Obama campaign lives up to its promises, creating more than $87 billion in new government and entitlements. Obama will need to substantially raise taxes to fulfill even some of his campaign promises.
Think Bush is bad? Obama will be worse, pulling for "higher income taxes, Social Security taxes, capital gains taxes, dividend taxes," and taxes on
job-creating small businesses straight out of the "dazed and malaised" days of James Earl Carter's failed one-term Presidency. I'm sure I am not alone in hearing from parents concerned that an Obama presidency will ruin the economy for their children.
This is just on the home front, where Obama thinks he's strongest. Overseas, Obama is even more of a dismal failure.
We are not losing in Iraq, despite the best efforts of Democrats in Congress and on the Presidential campaign trial. Oh, they've certainly tried, but the war is actually progressing well enough that a Iraqi Sunni sheik is pressing to go to Afghanistan to
help fight al Qaeda there. He trusts America. Democrats? Not so much.
As for Iran, the mullah's no doubt salivate at the possibility of an Obama presidency, and the reasons why are obvious.
They seek to exploit Obama's status as a foreign policy naif pledged to a campaign of pacifism to recreate the glory days of their Islamic Revolution. I'd remind you that these were their glory days due in no small part due to Carter's ineffectual Presidency, which Obama is already emulating with his stated policy of unconditional talks with tyrants. Other strongmen in the region also smell Obama's fear, which is why they are
actively campaigning for him.
He's a well-rounded candidate, the first-term senator from Illinois. Obama's foreign policy is equally incompetent as are his domestic policies, all of which are as bad or worse than that of the thirty-ninth President.
Higher taxes. Bigger government. Intrusive regulations.
Welcome Back, Carter.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
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Posted by: Dan Irving at June 10, 2008 01:09 PM (zw8QA)
2
Isn't the comparison between Snobama and Carter insulting to Carter?
Posted by: Thomas Jackson at June 10, 2008 03:40 PM (LHaZf)
3
BHO is a leftist liberal product of corrupt Chicago politics who hypocritically preaches all kinds of platitudes for others but in his public life has failed to demonstrate with his own actions. What happened to his “Old Uncle Wright”- dumped! – His church of 20 years – dumped! A real steady guy. He will do and say whatever it takes to get the prize. The history of his political rise in Chicago is ugly. His record in the Illinois legislature and later in the US Senate contains absolutely nothing but a record of doing what is politically expedient. BHO is a product of “Old Line Politics”. :”Change”:- into what? . Judge a man by his actions not his words.
He will spend spend - Changes for sure!
Posted by: ratfink at June 10, 2008 04:04 PM (9zenO)
4
Obama is for change! The change in your pocket and the change in your bank account. He's a big government, nanny state, tax and wastefully spend corrupt Chicago politician.
The sad part is that most of the kids who worship him were born after the disastrous Carter administration. The concept of double digit inflation and unemployment is completely foreign to them. They are now bitching about unemployment rates that Billy Jeff Clinton road to re-election back in 1996.
Posted by: Mark at June 10, 2008 06:01 PM (4iyAQ)
5
“You know one of his favorite phrases is that I would be a Bush third term. Well I think maybe his proposals could be a Carter second term,” McCain told Fox.
I think McCain just found a campaign slogan.

Posted by: C-C-G at June 10, 2008 07:17 PM (X5vKa)
6
CY,
Only 87 Billion? I believe Nationalized Health Care will be just slightly higher than that number by itself (sarcastic understatement).
Posted by: Mark at June 10, 2008 07:51 PM (KDHro)
7
In light of your comments about Reagan and Carter and GW and debt and all that, I suggest you wander over to White House's Office of Management and Budget Historical Table 7.1. Take a gander at what the data actually looks like as opposed to what you think or want it to look like.
Clearly your setup knows what the data looks like - it wouldn't let me embed the link telling me the content is questionable.
(Go to whitehouse dot gov forward slash omb forward slash budget forward slash budget forward slash fy2009 forward slash hist.html.)
Posted by: cactus at June 11, 2008 04:12 AM (l3Fio)
8
Carter. Republicans would rather shoot themselves in the head or maybe some other part of their anatomy rather than admit that if we followed Carter on energy we would be laughing all the way to the gas pump now.
slow down,turn down the thermostat,develop alternatives..We would have two years of energy freedom rihgt now and a robust industry to boot...
Posted by: I hope we can at June 11, 2008 07:24 AM (3ULgL)
9
Carter, Hope, do either of you remember the term "stagflation"?
Go look it up. Then tell me, honestly, that you want to go back to economic conditions where that word would start to be used again.
Posted by: C-C-G at June 11, 2008 07:56 AM (X5vKa)
10
Hope were you aware that Carter torpedoed the American domestic nuclear power industry, at the behest of his big oil-company donors? Imagine how much more energy-independant we would be now except for that little bit of quid-pro-quo at the nation's expense.
Posted by: DaveP. at June 11, 2008 10:11 AM (8mvgK)
11
His Democratic friends are saying ..No oil to invest in. They know ExxonMobil is making a filthy killing in this energy crisis, but what galls them even more is the knowledge that ExxonMobil can’t spend any of its $40 billion in profits to find American oil in the most obvious places.
Maybe they should contact their Democratic friends on Capitol Hill and tell them.
Posted by: Neo at June 11, 2008 11:11 AM (Yozw9)
12
Hope were you aware that Carter torpedoed the American domestic nuclear power industry, at the behest of his big oil-company donors? Imagine how much more energy-independant we would be now except for that little bit of quid-pro-quo at the nation's expense.
Interesting assertion, DaveP.
Please provide your evidence backing up that assertion.
Don't tell me to look it up myself, I don't play that game... no matter what I find you'd just claim that I didn't get the right article. Also, it is logically impossible to prove a negative, so I can't prove that there is no evidence of what you say; therefore the onus is upon you to provide the proof of your statement.
Don't spin, that won't work. I asked a simple question, I expect a simple answer. Where did you find the evidence for your statement above?
Posted by: C-C-G at June 11, 2008 05:35 PM (X5vKa)
13
C-C-G:
Very nice putdown. The next meme we will be subjected to is that Bush sold out to the fast food industry. In exchange for preventing drilling in Alaska and building new refineries Bush pushed the use of grease for fuel. There are billions to be made. Think of what happens when Bush agrees to allow using the oil from Neo's zits as fuel.
Posted by: Thomas Jackson at June 12, 2008 11:36 PM (LHaZf)
14
Thomas:
I've learned that if you don't tell lefties right up front which of their little games you won't play, they'll try to squirm out of actually providing a link, thus distracting the conversation.
By laying down the rules that I'll play by right off the bat, their squirming room is greatly diminished, and they usually slink back to DU or DailyKos... as DaveP appears to have.
Same result in the end, since DaveP had no evidence for his assertion... I just shortened the process of making it apparent to everyone.
Posted by: C-C-G at June 13, 2008 09:39 PM (X5vKa)
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Impeachment: Just Do It
Former Presidential candidate Dennis Kucinich has filed articles of impeachment against President George W. Bush.
I hope that the Democrat-controlled Congress will not treat this event with the seriousness that it deserves, and instead, high on their own fumes, launches full-blown impeachment proceedings.
Let's do this thing.
We've been listening the fringe left grow ever more hysterical over the past few years, perpetrating the "Bush lied, people died" hyperbole so long and hard that they now accept their fevered fantasies as fact, even as their
own politically-motivated investigations proven otherwise.
So let us see the Democrats make their very best case for impeachment. Let us see every one of their "facts" placed under extreme scrutiny in a national spotlight, carried across network and cable news and wire services in an onslaught of continuous wall-to-wall coverage, with nary a second of coverage ignored.
Support your rhetoric. Make your best case directly to the American people. Lay out all the facts, under oath.
Give it your best shot, impeachment fans.
We can hardly wait.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at
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1
Democrats and their allies in the media have been lying about the war for six years. Why do you think they'd suddenly start telling the truth for impeachment proceedings?
Democrats ignored the evidence and voted "not guilty" when the Slug was impeached and tried ten years ago. What makes you think they would vote with the evidence in an impeachment of President Bush?
Posted by: wolfwalker at June 10, 2008 10:14 AM (a8n5J)
2
Although impeachment is warranted per the revelations of the Senate Intelligence Committee's Phase II Report, neither the Senate nor the House will go along with it. This is because key members of BOTH parties are culpable for misleading the American people in the justification of the Iraq War.
Refer to pages 164-165 of the Phase II report to find quotes of Senator Rockefeller that demonstrate his culpability. Recall that Senator Rockefeller is one of the select few in the Senate and the House who is briefed on the nation's highest levels of intelligence.
Further support for the culpability of both Democrats and the Republicans is found when one examines the warrantless wiretapping issue and the immunization of the telecom companies.
Back in February, Democrat Representative Reyes, Chairman of the House Intelligence Committee, was adamant in his opposition to granting immunity to the telecom companies. However, this was before his committee was given access to any of Bush Administration's legal justifications for warrantless wiretapping.
Last week, there were reports that Representative Reyes was close to an agreement with House Republicans in that he was willing to let the secret FISA court decide if the telecoms should be granted immunity. This is almost a total reversal of his earlier position.
Although there is little in the way of hard evidence before the American people, I think that it is safe to say that something bad has happened and both the Democrats and the Republicans are trying to cover it up.
Thus an impeachment will never happen, no matter if it is warranted or not.
Posted by: justthetruth at June 10, 2008 11:11 AM (Xpp/g)
3
No! I don't want Cheney to be president! And after him it's Pelosi! Although, if we can get down to Rice, that'll solve this whole "first female president, first black president" crap.
Posted by: Ryan at June 10, 2008 11:16 AM (eplNU)
4
The Thunder Run has linked to this post in the - Web Reconnaissance for 06/10/2008 A short recon of what’s out there that might draw your attention, updated throughout the day...so check back often.
Posted by: David M at June 10, 2008 11:46 AM (gIAM9)
5
Yeah, lets impeach a president for the liberatuion of 27 million people and the birth of democracy in the middle east. Thats a grat idea.
Posted by: grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr at June 10, 2008 02:08 PM (gkobM)
6
Justthetruth,
"Although impeachment is warranted per the revelations of the Senate Intelligence Committee's Phase II Report, neither the Senate nor the House will go along with it."
And those breathless "revelations" are......? Better go back and read the report: if anything Jay "Imminent Threat" Rockefeller repeatedly admits that President Bush's public statements on WMD's, Iraqi terrorist contacts, etc. were "substantiated by intelligence information" at the time. Rockefeller saw the same material that Bush did--so where's the beef? Hell, Jumpin' Jay Rockefeller as dumb as he is dishonest--he can't even keep his own story straight.
Methinks that if stuff like the Rockefeller report is the best the Donks can provide for an "impeachment case," then they're obviously gluttons for public and political humiliation.
Impeachment? Bring it on. That'll be a sure-fire way to drive Congress's favorability ratings down to negative double digits.
Posted by: MarkJ at June 10, 2008 02:08 PM (ZFVlP)
7
You guys need to stop drinking the right-wing Kool-Aid. They Lied. They knew they lied. The evidence is there. The CIA sent them (Hadley) a memo debunking the sources for the yellowcake theory in October 2002, 5 months before the invasion. they still left the the "16 words" in the state of the Union that were designed to strike fear into the American people.
Hadley even offered to resign over it, but instead, Bush promoted him. What a retard!
There is no way any reasonable person who actually reads the information out there can disagree. All you guys will do is attack the messenger because you can't handle the message. Don't like the book, then McClellan is a liar. Don't like the Phase II report (that the repubs said would be out 3 years ago?!?), then there is something wrong with Jay Rockefeller.
Please.
When you learn the facts, we'll talk.
If you wanna throw firebombs and act like Ann Coulter, Rush Limbaugh and Sean Hannity, you will stay where they are, out on the (lunatic) fringe.
Conservatism and more importantly, the Republican Party, have been exposed and they are about to become irrelevant.
Posted by: Phil at June 10, 2008 03:42 PM (e9onF)
8
Yeah, lets impeach a president for the liberatuion of 27 million people and the birth of democracy in the middle east. Thats a grat idea.
Posted by: grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr at June 10, 2008 02:08 PM
Yeah, killing about 600,000 of them along the way. . . Great "liberation" . . . for reasons he knew were false.
Bush and the Republicans are a joke.
Posted by: Phil at June 10, 2008 03:45 PM (e9onF)
9
Democrats and their allies in the media have been lying about the war for six years. Why do you think they'd suddenly start telling the truth for impeachment proceedings?
Democrats ignored the evidence and voted "not guilty" when the Slug was impeached and tried ten years ago. What makes you think they would vote with the evidence in an impeachment of President Bush?
Posted by: wolfwalker at June 10, 2008 10:14 AM
I think you got the wrong party when you say who has been lying about the war . . . Bush deserves to be impeached and convicted more than any president in the history of our country. If you guys were brave enough to come off your right wing fence, you would agree. . . But I don't think you are brave. You'll just keep attacking the messenger.
Posted by: Phil at June 10, 2008 03:55 PM (e9onF)
10
No! I don't want Cheney to be president! And after him it's Pelosi! Although, if we can get down to Rice, that'll solve this whole "first female president, first black president" crap.
Posted by: Ryan at June 10, 2008 11:16 AM
Cheney should be impeached as well. Pelosi would do just fine until Obama is sworn in on January 20, 2009. Let's talk again in 8 years when we have a budget surplus, surging economy, and no wars based on lies. I hope you might agree then that he did a great job, as long as he doesn't get a blow job and lie about it. . .
Posted by: Phil at June 10, 2008 03:57 PM (e9onF)
11
Fascinating.
Phil, since every major Democrat has said exactly the same things that President Bush has said about Iraq, and most of them voted to use force to liberate Iraq in accord with the UN resolutions, will you be calling for the impeachment of most of your own party's Congressional delegation too?
Does your "600,000" figure count: Foreigner Jihadis killed in Iraq by American, Coalition and Iraqi forces? Does it include the number of Iraqis killed by Mahdi Army/Al Quaeda/Iranian Quds Force terror tactics? If it does, you are in the position of using the death tolls of Auchwitz and the Waffen SS to claim that the Allied liberation of Europe was somehow wrong. I will further ask if the number counts the massacres of Iraqis perpetrated by Saddam Hussein's own government.
Speaking of the War Against Socailism, Phil, do you know how many civilian casualties were created just by the D-Day invasion? Are you willing to use that number as an arguement against American intervention in Europe?
Phil, do you know how many times Bill Clinton was offered the opportunity to capture or kill Osama Bin Laden and failed to do so? Do you understand that President Clinton was the last man who could've prevented the four thousand American deaths on September 11? Do you excuse that?
Phil is a certain type that we've seen before: he has no understanding of freedom, war, or the world; his ability to defend his positions is at best juvenile and verges on the preteen; he'd far rather believe a hundred lies than a truth that undercuts his own self-centered world view. I pity him, and invite others to do the same.
Posted by: DaveP. at June 10, 2008 04:47 PM (8mvgK)
12
Okay, Democrats: Put Up or Shut Up!
Posted by: JEC at June 10, 2008 04:59 PM (GAf+S)
13
We cannot withdraw precipitously from Iraq the way we recklessly invaded it without compounding the error. Impeaching the Commander in Chief is the only reasonable way to deal with the fact that he lied us into an unnecessary war, period.
Posted by: Ilya at June 10, 2008 05:31 PM (EPDzn)
14
Phil, you do know that Lancet study was debunked, right?
http://michellemalkin.com/2007/07/25/document-drop-a-new-critique-of-the-2004-lancet-iraq-death-toll-study/
You might want to get, y'know, *facts* on your side-- or are you just too busy using ad homen arguments to come up with actual arguments?
Posted by: Foxfier at June 10, 2008 05:50 PM (3aOlt)
15
I guess, Phil, that all the following people also lied about the war in Iraq:
"Others argue that if even our allies support us, we should not support this resolution because confronting Iraq now would undermine the long-term fight against terrorist groups like Al Qaeda. Yet, I believe that this is not an either-or choice. Our national security requires us to do both, and we can."
Senator John Edwards, US Senate floor statement.
"Those who doubted whether Iraq or the world would be better off without Saddam Hussein, and those who believe today that we are not safer with his capture, don't have the judgment to be President, or the credibility to be elected President.
"No one can doubt or should doubt that we are safer -- and Iraq is better -- because Saddam Hussein is now behind bars."
Senator John Kerry, speech at Drake University, Iowa.
"I think it was the right decision to disarm Saddam Hussein. And when the president made the decision, I supported him, and I support the fact that we did disarm him."
Again, Senator Kerry, during a Democratic primary debate in South Carolina.
"There is no doubt that Saddam Hussein's regime is a serious danger, that he is a tyrant, and that his pursuit of lethal weapons of mass destruction cannot be tolerated. He must be disarmed."
Senator Edward Kennedy, speech at Johns Hopkins School of Advanced International Studies.
"In the next century, the community of nations may see more and more the very kind of threat Iraq poses now -- a rogue state with weapons of mass destruction ready to use them or provide them to terrorists, drug traffickers or organized criminals who travel the world among us unnoticed.
"If we fail to respond today, Saddam and all those who would follow in his footsteps will be emboldened tomorrow by the knowledge that they can act with impunity, even in the face of a clear message from the United Nations Security Council and clear evidence of a weapons of mass destruction program."
President William Jefferson Clinton, address to Joint Chiefs and Pentagon staff.
"In the four years since the inspectors left, intelligence reports show that Saddam Hussein has worked to rebuild his chemical and biological weapons stock, his missile delivery capability, and his nuclear program. He has also given aid, comfort, and sanctuary to terrorists, including Al Qaeda members...
"It is clear, however, that if left unchecked, Saddam Hussein will continue to increase his capacity to wage biological and chemical warfare, and will keep trying to develop nuclear weapons."
Senator Hillary Clinton, addressing the US Senate.
"As a member of the Senate Intelligence Committee, I firmly believe that the issue of Iraq is not about politics. It's about national security. We know that for at least 20 years, Saddam Hussein has obsessively sought weapons of mass destruction through every means available. We know that he has chemical and biological weapons today. He has used them in the past, and he is doing everything he can to build more. Each day he inches closer to his longtime goal of nuclear capability -- a capability that could be less than a year away.
"The path of confronting Saddam is full of hazards. But the path of inaction is far more dangerous. This week, a week where we remember the sacrifice of thousands of innocent Americans made on 9-11, the choice could not be starker. Had we known that such attacks were imminent, we surely would have used every means at our disposal to prevent them and take out the plotters. We cannot wait for such a terrible event -- or, if weapons of mass destruction are used, one far worse -- to address the clear and present danger posed by Saddam Hussein's Iraq."
Senator Edwards again, Senate floor statement.
There are lots and lots more.
So, Phil, should we also impeach Senators Kerry, Kennedy, and Clinton? (Can't impeach Edwards, he's not in the Senate anymore.)
Posted by: C-C-G at June 10, 2008 06:31 PM (X5vKa)
16
Phil and Ilya (sorry if I misspelled that, it's rather hard to distinguish "I" and "l" on my system)
I wholeheartedly welcome an impeachment of President Bush. Bring on the facts and evidence. Do not imply 'because of what we know now', the invasion of Iraq was incorrect. Attempt to prove it was incorrect based upon the information available at the time.
You on the left in this case have already convicted without actually hearing and seeing the 'evidence'. Therefore, your objectivity is obviously non-existent. If the evidence proves GWB is a liar, I would cast a guilty vote. If not, then I would acquit.
If you could honestly say in to your inner-most selves you have the same attitude, then you really need to modify your statements. If not, then enjoy YOUR Kool-Aid.
Posted by: Mark at June 10, 2008 06:53 PM (KDHro)
17
Bush has months left in office. The Clinton impeachment took 5 months. Seems like a waste of time and money to me. If they wanted to impeach him, they should have done it a lot sooner.
Posted by: Ryan at June 10, 2008 09:36 PM (eplNU)
18
That was supposed to say "Bush has 7 months left in office."
Posted by: Ryan at June 10, 2008 09:37 PM (eplNU)
19
Not going to happen for a lot of reasons. The first of many is that someone already introduced an impeachment bill in the 110th Congress: the Democratic leaders wanted to simply bury it, while the Republicans forced a procedural vote (to table it or send it to committee, I forget which) so that House Democrats would have to be on record about it.
Posted by: Matt at June 10, 2008 10:18 PM (uI85d)
20
Ryan, the Dems have no intention of following through. The threat is just a chunk of red meat thrown to their ultra-wacko followers like Phil.
The Dems are smart enough to realize that an impeachment trial would open the door to the full reading of reports like the Rockefeller report, on live TV, with lots of people watching. And with the Rockefeller report, as mentioned above, indicating that Bush's statements were supported by the information available at the time, that would give the Dems not just egg on their face, but a whole omelet.
They're not that foolish, at least not yet. If they keep chasing away the relatively reasonable members of their party, like Zell Miller and Joe Lieberman, tho, they might be that reckless before too much longer, tho.
Posted by: C-C-G at June 10, 2008 10:21 PM (X5vKa)
21
they still left the the "16 words" in the state of the Union that were designed to strike fear into the American people.
You mean these, Phil? "The British government has learned that Saddam Hussein recently sought significant quantities of uranium from Africa."
They were true then and remain true today. Niger is not what the British report was based on. G00gle "Straw defends UK uranium evidence" and read the first link.
Posted by: Pablo at June 11, 2008 11:50 AM (yTndK)
22
Pablo: Nail. Head. 'Nuff said.

Posted by: C-C-G at June 11, 2008 05:37 PM (X5vKa)
23
PS - You guys already know who you are voting for anyway. . . please stay in here and keep your (lack of) sources to yourselves!
Posted by: Phil at June 12, 2008 01:28 PM (e9onF)
24
my comment was removed because it was too long. If you care or want to read it, email me. meyerlaw924@gmail.com
Posted by: Phil at June 12, 2008 02:01 PM (e9onF)
25
You guys aren't paying attention. That's what you are best at. . . Read deeper, look harder, try to shed your red-state goggles and maybe you will actually learn something.
First, to Dave P:
1) If you are trying to say the democratic senators who voted for war, knew what bush knew, that is false. Hadley had the dissent of the CIA; the NIE did not include the dissents. (Which turned out to be correct, by the way?)
2) The 600,000 number comes from a Study at Johns Hopkins U. Refute it with the level of sources they have, and I will listen to you.
3) Your reference to death tolls and Nazis is quaint but irrelevant to the issue. We were not going to Iraq to depose a horrible dictator who was a bad guy like Saddam, we were marketed the idea that there was an imminent threat to our safety, which has been proven false and was known to be false by Bush & Co at the time. Don't Change the purpose of the invasion after the fact, like Bush had to when it was proven he was wrong. You are just obfuscating and changing the subject to hide your equivocal argument. Hitler's menace was real, you can’t retro-fit the argument to make your side correct because Hitler was bad, and so was Saddam, therefore we had to get Saddam just like we got Hitler. There is no argument against American intervention in Europe, so don't put words in my mouth. You cannot conflate the two into one sound reasoning to invade Iraq. It is intellectually dishonest. PS it was National Socialism, not Socialism. National Socialism was fascism, which is what the executive branch under bush has become.
SEE: Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1) -
fas•cism /ˈfæʃɪzəm/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[fash-iz-uhm] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun
1. (sometimes initial capital letter) a governmental system led by a dictator having complete power, forcibly suppressing opposition and criticism, regimenting all industry, commerce, etc., and emphasizing an aggressive nationalism and often racism.
Sound familiar?
4) The story about Clinton having the opportunity to get Osama bin Laden has been disproved. DO you even know the story about it? The "Source" was a Sudanese official, here, I will just paste one source, http://www.factcheck.org/askfactcheck/did_bill_clinton_pass_up_a_chance_1.html
try using sources sometime, it helps your credibility. Oh, and after you criticize my source, I'll just go find another one. . . but, I am pretty sure Fox News will not have it.
What is not excusable is the fact that when Clinton wanted to make a strike against Osama, the information on his whereabouts was withheld from him.
AND
That Condoleezza Rice was told that Al-Qaeda would be the most important threat facing America by the out-going Clinton administration. They ignored the threat, did not even convene a meeting on the threat of Al-Qaeda until September 10, 2001. So no, Clinton was not at fault for 9-11. Bush was. End of story. Bush was too worried about missile defense, in fact, Condi was going to deliver a speech about missile defense on 9-11 but obviously could not, why hasn't the text of that speech been released? Because we don't need the terrorists to know how far up their arses the Bushies had their heads!
5) As far as the "certain type" you say I am? I beg to differ. How dare you question my knowledge of freedom, war and the world?
Only a juvenile or preteen would accuse another adult of such . . . use sources, saying "You're Wrong cuz I said so!” is juvenile and pre-teen . . . that's all you have done. .
You have used ZERO sources. You use the same ad hominem attacks that will be flying around the internet in fake attack emails from now until November. You don't have facts on your side, so you lie. Back up your positions. Until then, I will continue to pity you.
As far as a self-centered world view, you are way off. I speak several languages, have a doctorate, have traveled extensively and have friends from the Deep South to the other hemisphere. I believe yours is the view that thinks Bush is right no matter what. Don't use sources, oh no. . . . That would be dangerous, but "Bush is right" and damn the torpedoes . . . deny the photos, the insider accounts, the mounting evidence of criminal activity . . . that's a self- centered world view.
Posted by: Phil at June 12, 2008 02:02 PM (e9onF)
26
TO JEC:
Putting up, not shutting up! Now you do the same!
To Ilya:
Yes, it was reckless to invade. Saddam posed no threat. He was shut down with two no-fly zones. He could do us no harm. That's why the Bushes had to conflate 9-11 and Iraq. Which they did ad nauseum. Then, when that link failed, they had to find another reason for the invasion, after the fact. Withdrawal will be difficult, but no doubt, as soon as a demo is the president, everything that bush did will be that new president's fault.
TO Foxfier: Here are my "Facts"
Whether it is 650,000, 150,000 or 900,000, it was too many.
Michelle Malkin is not a source.
But, your using her as a source probably qualifies as an ad hominem attack.
Check out
http://en. wikipedia. org/wiki/Lancet_surveys_of_casualties_of_the_Iraq_War
I use the Wikipedia link only because it has the links to several pro and con positions . . . whether it is 150,000 or 900,000 Iraqi civilian deaths; it was still an unnecessary tragedy.
Posted by: Phil at June 12, 2008 02:02 PM (e9onF)
27
TO Mark and Matt and C-C-G:
You are right, it won't happen for reasons I said above. But sadly, instead of discussing it, CCG has to call me an ultra-wacko. . . Can’t handle the message? Attack the messenger. Although listening to Bush and co is enough to drive one ultra-wacko, I am actually a pretty stable, sane, and intelligent person. So, CCG, if you are going to call me an ultra wacko, let's stick to our rules and CITE SOURCES?
As far as showing you the information on why it was wrong at the time, it is already out there. Discredited sources used on mobile labs (Curveball), IAEA scientists rebuffed aluminum tube nuke theory, I will put together a post just for you Mark regarding the weakness of the evidence PRIOR to the invasion and how Bush and Co. massaged the horrific (and false) "intel" to get the vote for war. Stay tuned.
CCG, you think Zell Miller is reasonable? Wow.
PS Joe Lieberman still caucuses with senate democrats; he is only an independent cuz he lost in the demo primary.
So, CCG, you said:
"And with the Rockefeller report, as mentioned above, indicating that Bush's statements were supported by the information available at the time, that would give the Dems not just egg on their face, but a whole omelet."
Why don't you show us the parts of the report that support your position? It’s public record right? Convince us . . . show us that the whole administration was honest and forthright with ALL the intel they had? Why won't you? BECAUSE YOU CAN'T. You say it's there, prove it.
Posted by: Phil at June 12, 2008 02:03 PM (e9onF)
28
And Finally, TO PABLO:
You are citing a 2003 news article of an allied British official's statement to C N N as proof??
Dude, read deeper:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2003/mar/08/nuclear.iraq
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/3056626.stm
stating: "Doubts about a claim that Iraq had tried to buy uranium from the African state of Niger were aired 10 months before Mr Bush included the allegation in his key State of the Union address this year, a CIA official has told the BBC."
TO CCG: Nail, Head, 'Nuff said.
It was real and it was fun, but I am going to go talk to some independents who are not as hypnotized by the right as you guys are. At least they listen . . . and read. . .
Posted by Phil at June 12, 2008 01:18 PM
Posted by: Phil at June 12, 2008 02:03 PM (e9onF)
29
"Bush lied, people died"
which part of that is false again?
Posted by: rapid at June 12, 2008 02:19 PM (c7CKN)
30
"Bush lied, people died"
which part of that is false again?
According to multiple investigations (including those run by partisan Democrats), the part before "people died."
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at June 12, 2008 02:29 PM (hn7Rm)
31
I don't know what investigations you are referring to. Why not enlighten us.
Is there such a thing as a "non-partisan republican?"
Do the facts discovered change because of who reports those facts? If it is a Republican, you believe it. If it is a Democrat, you don't. That's pretty accurate of the people in here, right?
Posted by: Phil at June 12, 2008 02:55 PM (e9onF)
32
Phil,
I'm still waiting for your promised post directed to me:
I will put together a post just for you Mark regarding the weakness of the evidence PRIOR to the invasion and how Bush and Co. massaged the horrific (and false) "intel" to get the vote for war. Stay tuned.
Please do post and I'll be happy to respond in kind.
Posted by: Mark at June 12, 2008 04:49 PM (4od5C)
33
Phil, would you accept the word of the Washington Post (no fan of the war)?
But dive into Rockefeller's report, in search of where exactly President Bush lied about what his intelligence agencies were telling him about the threat posed by Saddam Hussein, and you may be surprised by what you find.
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On Iraq's nuclear weapons program? The president's statements "were generally substantiated by intelligence community estimates."
On biological weapons, production capability and those infamous mobile laboratories? The president's statements "were substantiated by intelligence information."
On chemical weapons, then? "Substantiated by intelligence information."
On weapons of mass destruction overall (a separate section of the intelligence committee report)? "Generally substantiated by intelligence information." Delivery vehicles such as ballistic missiles? "Generally substantiated by available intelligence." Unmanned aerial vehicles that could be used to deliver WMDs? "Generally substantiated by intelligence information."
I am still looking for the actual text of the report online, but that should give you a start on spinning.
Posted by: C-C-G at June 12, 2008 06:16 PM (X5vKa)
34
Aha, found the report, Phil (it's right here, as a .pdf file).
Some excerpts for ya (the page numbers I list are from the bottom of the printed sheets, Adobe Reader's internal page numbers are 1 page higher, so don't go whining that I say page 15 when Adobe says 16.):
Page 15: "Statements by the President, Vice President, Secretary of State and the National Security Advisor regarding a possible Iraqi nuclear weapons program were generally substantiated by intelligence community estimates, but did not convey the substantial disagreements that existed in the intelligence community."
Page 28: "Statements in the major speeches analyzed, as well as additional statements, regarding Iraq's possession of biological agent, weapons, production capability, and use of mobile biological laboratories were substantiated by intelligence information."
Page 37: "Statements in the major speeches analyzed, as well as additional statements, regarding Iraq's possession of chemical weapons were substantiated by intelligence information."
I won't bore you with more excerpts... those three should be enough. If you wanna read through 170+ pages of bureaucratese, you're welcome to.
I'd love to see that record read on all the major networks as part of live coverage of the President's impeachment, wouldn't you?
Posted by: C-C-G at June 12, 2008 06:38 PM (X5vKa)
35
C-C-G, C-C-G, C-C-G... When will you ever learn that for dweebs like Phil, the glass is never half-full, it's completely empty. Even when you spill water all over your shirt...
There's more than enough mistakes made during and after the Iraq invasion to occupy West Point for the next quarter-century. Take Paul Bremer, for example. Or the lackwitted shouldering-aside of community authorities such as the local sheiks, or the earlier (idiotic) "Lone-Ranger clear and leave" strategy.
I won't even mention endemic Mid-East corruption in government.
But dinks like Phil will continue to tilt at their phantastic windmills, just because it validates their mindless pointy-headed beliefs.
Now. If y'all want to get into a mature, serious "lessons learned" with respect to Iraq, I'm your boy...
Posted by: Casey at June 13, 2008 02:58 AM (RJSy/)
36
Casey, I do not argue that Iraq has been well-run by the Pentagon. In point of fact, there have been blunders in every war in history... the Battle of the Bulge, in fact, was the result of numerous errors by the Allies.
My only argument regarding that is that making mistakes doesn't automatically make what you're attempting to do a Bad Thing.
Posted by: C-C-G at June 13, 2008 08:05 AM (X5vKa)
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