Religious (Or Educational) Exemptions From Military Service? It Is Culturally Corrosive, And Israel Is A Prime Example

Israel has allowed ultra-orthodox Jews to avoid military service from its refounding in 1948 (and even a bit before). It rapidly became a political question with the rise of religious political parties in Israel's parliamentary system. Since it was almost impossible to win an outright majority, Israeli political parties cobbled together coalitions, and even small, seemingly inconsequential parties became powerful as the last few votes to achieve a parliamentary majority.

And those tiny parties who represented the ultra-orthodox had very few demands, but one was to maintain the status quo that they were exempt from military service, in particular those who were studying in Yeshivas (religious schools). And yes, that quickly became a boondoggle, with government funding of those schools coupled with direct support payments to the students.

Here is a timeline: Development of the Haredi Exemption Law.

The current law, and judicial activism, has mostly made them eligible for the draft, but there has been no wholesale drafting or upholding of the law. The situation is an absolute mess, with 67,000 Haredi men legally defined as draft dodgers, and upwards of 110,000 in total.

The army must soon begin enlisting ultra-Orthodox men. How will that work? Here's the short answer: it won't.

America saw the caustic effects of wholesale draft dodging and obscenely lenient deferment policies during the Vietnam War. For the first time in our history, a wartime draft allowed large numbers of the affluent and the politically connected to avoid service. Whether that was one of the foundational systems that contributed to our current malaise is debatable, but a powerful argument can be made that a multi-tiered draft that allows healthy young men to avoid service is a corrosive and destructive influence on society. While our current all-volunteer armed force is superb, if we ever need to reinstate the draft, the current system will magnify the great divide between wealth and influence on one side, and the mostly silent majority of Americans. We have had enough of that in the last 60 years, and we certainly don't need more!

That destruction of unity and the magnification of political privilege is dangerous in a large country such as America. But in Israel, which is small, surrounded by enemies, and has fought constantly since 1947, that divide is far more dangerous. Israel is an amazingly patriotic country, and among a large majority of its citizens, the obligation to serve in some capacity is seen not as an onerous intrusion upon life, but an important part of being an Israeli.

And there is the rub! Those exemptions for many ultra-orthodox are grating, because the ultra-orthodox enjoy all of the privileges of Israeli society, but avoid any of the responsibilities. And in reality they are supported by the state at higher levels than the typical Israeli, via those support payments and government funding of religious schools.

But what is the most damning statistic is that up to one-third of the ultra-orthodox do serve in some capacity ... military or national civilian service. And that suggests that the rationale behind draft evasion (and that is exactly what it is) has less to do with religious principles and more to do with political outlook and simple, craven desire.

More than 1,000 people were murdered on October 7th, 2023, and more than 1,300 soldiers have been killed in the war against Hamas, Hezbollah and others. Those soldiers died to protect all of Israel, and the refusal of large numbers of young men to participate in the defense of the country that supports them and keeps them safe is an untenable situation that must change.

We see in many parts of America the result of the loss of patriotic spirit and simple love of country ... the idea that some groups are evil and beyond acceptance, even though they are Americans! And the disconnect between patriotism and a sense of shared responsibility for the welfare of the country and its people has manifested in many ways...all destructive. Perhaps worse is the rejection of our form of government, in spite of its obvious success.

Israel is not as far down that road as we are, but the repercussions are existential for a country its size and in that neighborhood. Of course it is entirely possible that our own issues will result in the Balkanization of America, or perhaps something worse, but that will take time, and that is a luxury that Israel does not have.

Posted by: CBD at 12:00 PM

Comments

(Jump to bottom of comments)

1 Nooded.

Posted by: Nazdar at November 15, 2026 12:00 PM (NcvvS)

2 Good afternoon everyone

Posted by: Skip at November 15, 2026 12:01 PM (Ia/+0)

3 And SPONGE!!

Posted by: Nazdar at November 15, 2026 12:01 PM (NcvvS)

4
The army must soon begin enlisting ultra-Orthodox men. How will that work?

__________

Get a shabbos goy to shoot for them?

Posted by: Hadrian the Seventh at November 15, 2026 12:02 PM (eRlcH)

5 Hey, Skip.

Posted by: Nazdar at November 15, 2026 12:02 PM (NcvvS)

6 Israel could try the "Starship Troopers" solution: No service means no citizenship and no vote.

Posted by: Idaho Spudboy at November 15, 2026 12:04 PM (GjEvj)

7 CBD, if the opposition is able to form a government, would it go after the ultra-Orthodox subsidies and privileges?

Posted by: Nazdar at November 15, 2026 12:04 PM (NcvvS)

8 I believe the method Americans used in WW2 to manage Conscientious Objectors was enlightened. You didn’t have to be in combat, but you still served.
And most of these were given pretty menial jobs (ditch digger, KP duty) so it was no easy way out.

Posted by: Tom Servo at November 15, 2026 12:04 PM (YOZYJ)

9 Even in our beginning, it followed European systems one could find a substitute, paying the person or lucking out they need the position. Granted if one had means probably ment they were well off more than the other guy.
Even Europeans let off some because job needed, say a baker or any other job.

Posted by: Skip at November 15, 2026 12:06 PM (Ia/+0)

10 Thanks CBD

What I don’t understand is what feature of ultra Orthodox Judaism prohibits military service? I see a martial spirit in the Hebrews of the Old Testament from Joshua onwards… and probably before that! So I don’t get the connection between ultra orthodox and no military service… I’m far from an expert on Judaism but to me it doesn’t jive

Posted by: LinusVanPelt at November 15, 2026 12:06 PM (M+uMR)

11 I think one of the worst ways of dealing with this was what the policy the Federal Army followed in the American Civil War. All men were subject to the draft, but you could opt out for a fee of $300 (a lot of money at the time). This in effect allowed a wealthy man to pay the government to put a poor man in his place, and obviously had a very corrosive social effect.

Posted by: Tom Servo at November 15, 2026 12:11 PM (YOZYJ)

12 I don't like the idea of a draft at all, baring absolute verge of collapse national survival.

Instead...why not just raise military salaries? Prior to the modern era military service would generally be profitable, well, if you won.

A quick internet search says in the US military salaries are around $160B.

Even quadrupling that only gets you to $640B - and compare that to the $7T we piss away anyway.

And you could pay for it by closing down most non-defense related government employment for the course of the war proving another incentive for people to sign up.

Posted by: 18-1 at November 15, 2026 12:11 PM (sKqQm)

13 South Korea has the mandatory service, even if you're famous. Athletes usually do service but later. I had AI look up their exemptions. The most interesting is for

1. Conscientious objectors: Can apply for alternative civilian service, rather than receiving a complete exemption.

However, here's the catch: they don't get out of serving altogether.

They must spend 36 months working in correctional facilities, compared with 18 months for regular Army service.

And almost all applicants have historically been Jehovah's Witnesses, whose religious beliefs prohibit military service.

There you go. Less than 2000 applicants a year it looks like. 267 in 2023.

Posted by: Stateless - Ralphy - 106.5 years old! Puppy at heart! at November 15, 2026 12:13 PM (Sco7b)

14 Do have to say this is first I heard Israel's draft issues.
Might criticize it, but its their problem not mine

Posted by: Skip at November 15, 2026 12:14 PM (Ia/+0)

15 We see in many parts of America the result of the loss of patriotic spirit and simple love of country ... the idea that some groups are evil and beyond acceptance, even though they are Americans!

Because we've been invaded and some Americans are using the invaders as their army to reduce the rest of us to serfdom.

This is not a new idea - nobles bringing in foreign troops to better oppress the domestic population has happened fairly often in history.

Hell in China they brought troops from the hinterlands figuring they'd be more willing to kill peaceful Chinese protestors and...they were right.

Posted by: 18-1 at November 15, 2026 12:14 PM (sKqQm)

16 And those tiny parties who represented the ultra-orthodox had very few demands, but one was to maintain the status quo that they were exempt from military service

This sort of thing is a side effect of Israeli leftwing parties being insane.

Since working with the left is pretty much signing your country's death warrant right leaning small parties can ask for whatever they want.

Posted by: 18-1 at November 15, 2026 12:17 PM (sKqQm)

17
"I'm claiming a religious exemption."

"Hmm, in all your social media posts you say you're an atheist."

Posted by: Hadrian the Seventh at November 15, 2026 12:18 PM (eRlcH)

18 What types of Judaism are there? I know of orthodox, liberal and conservative. Is there another one?

Posted by: dantesed at November 15, 2026 12:18 PM (Oy/m2)

19 I wish I had time to contribute to this discussion.

But outta time.

Posted by: Biden's Dog sniffs a whole lotta malarkey, at November 15, 2026 12:19 PM (x8PQF)

20 Haredi religious leaders: They argue that full-time Torah study is essential to Jewish society and should not be sacrificed.

I don't get why this can't be channeled into the idea of holy warriors...especially in Israel. Their enemies are the followers of the Arab moon good and anti-theists. I can't think of a better calling for someone strongly religious minded then fighting against that.

Posted by: 18-1 at November 15, 2026 12:19 PM (sKqQm)

21 Sikhs and Muslims should be excluded from service.

Posted by: Braenyard - some Absent Friends are more equal than others _ at November 15, 2026 12:22 PM (6T7Go)

22 New book on the subject but I don't know whether it's geared toward non-Jewishish readership:

https://tinyurl.com/429pwke8

Posted by: Biden's Dog sniffs a whole lotta malarkey, at November 15, 2026 12:22 PM (x8PQF)

23 Now do females and the Selective Service.

Posted by: Quarter Twenty at November 15, 2026 12:23 PM (2Ez/1)

24 Exemptions beyond medical cause resentment. I always wondered if a draft would have been necessary in WW2 beyond having to put together an army immediately. I like to think that almost every able bodied man would have eventually enlisted after Pearl Harbor. Maybe I'm too idealistic.

Posted by: polynikes at November 15, 2026 12:23 PM (OXhw3)

25 South Korea has a very strict draft. I wonder if them moving left will change that.

Posted by: polynikes at November 15, 2026 12:26 PM (OXhw3)

26 Israel could try the "Starship Troopers" solution: No service means no citizenship and no vote.

Posted by: Idaho Spudboy at November 15, 2026 12:04 PM

I could get onboard with this for the United States.

Posted by: Mister Scott (Formerly GWS) at November 15, 2026 12:26 PM (I43vL)

27 Now do females and the Selective Service.

The last time this was legally challenged it was argued that since women don't serve in combat units there is no need for them to register...

And I saw a funny exchange about it on the Whatever Podcast. Question to a couple of feminists as to whether this was fair. Their first answer was that men like going to war so there was no need to draft women. The host pointed out the draft was to get people that didn't want to fight to go and the feminists fell back to "but men are better at it!"

Posted by: 18-1 at November 15, 2026 12:26 PM (sKqQm)

28 >>Maybe I'm too idealistic.

Four out of five of Mom's uncles served - at least two Navy (Pacific), not sure about the other two. The fifth was rejected because he was needed to work the family farm.

Posted by: Nazdar at November 15, 2026 12:27 PM (NcvvS)

29
Israel could try the "Starship Troopers" solution: No service means no citizenship and no vote.
Posted by: Idaho Spudboy

“I also think there are prices too high to pay to save the United States. Conscription is one of them. Conscription is slavery, and I don't think that any people or nation has a right to save itself at the price of slavery for anyone, no matter what name it is called. We have had the draft for twenty years now; I think this is shameful. If a country can't save itself through the volunteer service of its own free people, then I say: Let the damned thing go down the drain!”
― Heinlein Robert

Posted by: Bertram Cabot, Jr. at November 15, 2026 12:27 PM (Cqx++)

30 CBD, if the opposition is able to form a government, would it go after the ultra-Orthodox subsidies and privileges?

Posted by: Nazdar at November 15, 2026 12:04 PM (NcvvS)

Not if they need the religious parties to form that government.

Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo at November 15, 2026 12:27 PM (k5CNB)

31
I like to think that almost every able bodied man would have eventually enlisted after Pearl Harbor. Maybe I'm too idealistic.
Posted by: polynikes at November 15, 2026 12:23 PM (OXhw3)

__________

About 60% of US WW2 enlistments were via the draft.

Posted by: Hadrian the Seventh at November 15, 2026 12:28 PM (eRlcH)

32 What I don’t understand is what feature of ultra Orthodox Judaism prohibits military service?

Posted by: LinusVanPelt at November 15, 2026 12:06 PM (M+uMR)

Some do not believe that the Israeli government is legitimate, so they do not think they have an y obligation to it. Some just use the mess to avoid responsibility. Some honestly believe that Judaism does not demand that they serve (I think they are incorrect).

Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo at November 15, 2026 12:30 PM (k5CNB)

33 >>Not if they need the religious parties to form that government.
Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo at November 15, 2026 12:27 PM (k5CNB)

Would the ultras ally with the Israeli Arab bloc? That would seem, um, unwise.

The PM's cabinet meetings would be exciting.

Posted by: Nazdar at November 15, 2026 12:30 PM (NcvvS)

34 This sort of thing is a side effect of Israeli leftwing parties being insane.

Posted by: 18-1 at November 15, 2026 12:17 PM (sKqQm)

Except...Netanyahu uses the religious parties to build his coalition.

Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo at November 15, 2026 12:31 PM (k5CNB)

35 My father and his younger brother were new immigrants in the US after Pearl Harbor.

My uncle served in the Pacific.

My father failed the draft physical because he was flat-footed. So he volunteered as a NYC Auxiliary Police... flatfoot.

Posted by: Biden's Dog sniffs a whole lotta malarkey, at November 15, 2026 12:31 PM (x8PQF)

36 Some honestly believe that Judaism does not demand that they serve (I think they are incorrect).

Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo at November 15, 2026 12:30 PM (k5CNB)
-

They are absolutely and disgustingly incorrect and in violation of so many Torah commandments and statutes. They are shameful.

Posted by: Biden's Dog sniffs a whole lotta malarkey, at November 15, 2026 12:33 PM (x8PQF)

37 Would the ultras ally with the Israeli Arab bloc? That would seem, um, unwise.

Posted by: Nazdar at November 15, 2026 12:30 PM (NcvvS)

Nobody has accused Jews of being politically astute.

Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo at November 15, 2026 12:33 PM (k5CNB)

38 LOL. My mom told me that our family fought of both sides of the American Civil War, but some northern members of the family were able to hire someone to take their place.

I think it is hilarious. Religious Jews don't want to defend Israel?

Posted by: no one of any consequence at November 15, 2026 12:34 PM (LOvBA)

39 They are absolutely and disgustingly incorrect and in violation of so many Torah commandments and statutes. They are shameful.

Posted by: Biden's Dog sniffs a whole lotta malarkey, at November 15, 2026 12:33 PM (x8PQF)

Exactly.

Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo at November 15, 2026 12:35 PM (k5CNB)

40 polynikes in the immediate aftermath of Pearl Harbor you were correct, there were plenty of guys volunteering.

But over the course of the war, it was clear conscription was needed. The numbers involved would never have been met by volunteer sign-ups. In 1945 conscription was expanded (older, not all fathers exempt) because of a shortage of bodies.

Another benefit of universal conscription was tapping the amazing breadth of expertise and talent in American society. One of my favorites: commodity traders and stock market guys accustomed to very intense high-pressure work used to staff combat information centers for air defense in Pacific carrier task forces.

A more amusing example was Sam Snead running the small golf course at Naval Training Center San Diego.

Posted by: rhomboid at November 15, 2026 12:35 PM (U/Byj)

41 Breaking OPSEC a little here, but: there's a tiny cohort of men in the US who never had to register for the draft. Way too old for it now, anyway, but Selective Service never got my information.

There was a lapse when the draft ended, and so did registration, and when registration was re-enabled, was just over the age range.

Posted by: Nazdar at November 15, 2026 12:36 PM (NcvvS)

42 I think it is hilarious. Religious Jews don't want to defend Israel?

Posted by: no one of any consequence at November 15, 2026 12:34 PM (LOvBA)

No. Not all religious Jews. Just some segments of the ultra-orthodox.

Many orthodox serve and fight.

Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo at November 15, 2026 12:36 PM (k5CNB)

43 Jeez, I am beginning to think religious Jews don't actually believe in an afterlife.

Posted by: no one of any consequence at November 15, 2026 12:36 PM (LOvBA)

44
Breaking OPSEC a little here, but: there's a tiny cohort of men in the US who never had to register for the draft.

_________

*raises hand*

Posted by: Hadrian the Seventh at November 15, 2026 12:37 PM (eRlcH)

45 Thanks CBD. I know what you mean. There are heroes and scoundrels (knavish imbeciles) in every society.

Posted by: no one of any consequence at November 15, 2026 12:38 PM (LOvBA)

46 >>Nobody has accused Jews of being politically astute.
Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo at November 15, 2026 12:33 PM (k5CNB)

Sigh. We talk about that a lot, here. Note - not Jewish myself, so generally try to avoid making ignorant commentary about the tribe.

Posted by: Nazdar at November 15, 2026 12:38 PM (NcvvS)

47 Breaking OPSEC a little here, but: there's a tiny cohort of men in the US who never had to register for the draft. Way too old for it now, anyway, but Selective Service never got my information.

There was a lapse when the draft ended, and so did registration, and when registration was re-enabled, was just over the age range.
Posted by: Nazdar at November 15, 2026 12:36 PM (NcvvS)
---------
That describes me.

Posted by: Captain Obvious, Laird o' the Sea at November 15, 2026 12:38 PM (amcLV)

48
A more amusing example was Sam Snead running the small golf course at Naval Training Center San Diego.
Posted by: rhomboid at November 15, 2026 12:35 PM (U/Byj)

__________

Reckon a lot of admirals were happy to keep him in that billet.

Posted by: Hadrian the Seventh at November 15, 2026 12:38 PM (eRlcH)

49 There was a lapse when the draft ended, and so did registration, and when registration was re-enabled, was just over the age range.
Posted by: Nazdar at November 15, 2026 12:36 PM (NcvvS)
---------
That describes me.
Posted by: Captain Obvious, Laird o' the Sea at November 15, 2026 12:38 PM
-----
Likewise.

Posted by: Quarter Twenty at November 15, 2026 12:39 PM (2Ez/1)

50 >>Posted by: Hadrian the Seventh at November 15, 2026 12:37 PM (eRlcH)

Hadrian VII, thought you were much younger than me. Cheers! *clinks glass*

Posted by: Nazdar at November 15, 2026 12:41 PM (NcvvS)

51 Breaking OPSEC a little here, but: there's a tiny cohort of men in the US who never had to register for the draft. Way too old for it now, anyway, but Selective Service never got my information.

There was a lapse when the draft ended, and so did registration, and when registration was re-enabled, was just over the age range.

Posted by: Nazdar at November 15, 2026 12:36 PM

I still have my original draft card. I got it a few months before my 18th birthday and found out some bars would accept that as an ID to serve me beer back then.

Posted by: Mister Scott (Formerly GWS) at November 15, 2026 12:41 PM (I43vL)

52 I have played that tiny course at Liberty Station on the old NTC. If Sam Snead was really running that ridiculously small golf course, he must have felt like he was being punished.

Posted by: no one of any consequence at November 15, 2026 12:41 PM (LOvBA)

53 >>That describes me.
Posted by: Captain Obvious, Laird o' the Sea at November 15, 2026 12:38 PM (amcLV)

Great Scott, and we're all here?!

Posted by: Nazdar at November 15, 2026 12:42 PM (NcvvS)

54 I have a solution for the religious exemption thing of ultra orthodox Jews.

"Okay, you are drafted to be a chaplain."

Posted by: no one of any consequence at November 15, 2026 12:43 PM (LOvBA)

55 10 Thanks CBD

What I don’t understand is what feature of ultra Orthodox Judaism prohibits military service? I see a martial spirit in the Hebrews of the Old Testament...
---

Looking from the outside one would assume the ultra Orthodox would be most zealous about 'getting some'. I think of the Levites.

Posted by: Braenyard - some Absent Friends are more equal than others _ at November 15, 2026 12:43 PM (6T7Go)

56
Hadrian VII, thought you were much younger than me.

____________

I'm rather well preserved for my age. Her Majesty, at 73, is still babelacious.

Posted by: Hadrian the Seventh at November 15, 2026 12:43 PM (eRlcH)

57 Likewise.
Posted by: Quarter Twenty at November 15, 2026 12:39 PM (2Ez/1)

Wow, guys. Raising a glass, again! *clink*

Posted by: Nazdar at November 15, 2026 12:44 PM (NcvvS)

58 "I think of the Levites."

What does one's choice of blue jeans have to do with obligation for military service?

Posted by: I gotta ask at November 15, 2026 12:45 PM (2Ez/1)

59 You know Homer, back in the day Conscientious Objectors would be found other jobs to do. You know, orderlies in hospitals. Something non-combatant? Oh, corpsman.

Posted by: no one of any consequence at November 15, 2026 12:47 PM (LOvBA)

60 On other hand, could put up link of Women in Uniform and Israeli women do look very nice.

https://tinyurl.com/ytuu3m3f

Posted by: Skip at November 15, 2026 12:48 PM (Ia/+0)

61 >>I'm rather well preserved for my age. Her Majesty, at 73, is still babelacious.
Posted by: Hadrian the Seventh at November 15, 2026 12:43 PM (eRlcH)

Congratulations, sir. Since you could describe me as having, what Spider Robinson called, one of the twelve standard faces - which was recalled to me yesterday while shopping - consider me non-descript.

Posted by: Nazdar at November 15, 2026 12:49 PM (NcvvS)

62 Now I'm thinking of the movie The Best Years of Our Lives and the anti war dick . I assume that the percentage of men like him were greater than I'd like to think and a draft was necessary beyond getting an army together immediately.

Posted by: polynikes at November 15, 2026 12:49 PM (OXhw3)

63 It sounds to me like the evaders are a bunch of limp-wristed cowards.

Posted by: no one of any consequence at November 15, 2026 12:50 PM (LOvBA)

64 Desmond Doss, the amazing MOH recipient medic, was a religious objector (think he termed himself a "conscientous cooperator"). Plenty of non-combat jobs (in WWII, most of the jobs).

Posted by: rhomboid at November 15, 2026 12:51 PM (U/Byj)

65 You know Homer, back in the day Conscientious Objectors would be found other jobs to do. You know, orderlies in hospitals. Something non-combatant? Oh, corpsman.
Posted by: no one of any consequence at November 15, 2026 12:47 PM (LOvBA)

Desmond Doss. Hacksaw Ridge was a good movie.

Posted by: polynikes at November 15, 2026 12:51 PM (OXhw3)

66 Sergent York was a religious objector.

Posted by: Braenyard - some Absent Friends are more equal than others _ at November 15, 2026 12:52 PM (6T7Go)

67 I think the original commander of NTC believed golf was useful as some kind of character-builder, golf course was his idea. His ashes are buried near one of the big eucalyptus trees on the course. Have no idea how Snead regarded his duties. Not everyone was anxious to go in harms' way.

Posted by: rhomboid at November 15, 2026 12:53 PM (U/Byj)

68 Speaking of conscientious objectors, is eliminating Iran on or off the table?

Posted by: Braenyard - some Absent Friends are more equal than others _ at November 15, 2026 12:54 PM (6T7Go)

69 the first time in our history, a wartime draft allowed large numbers of the affluent and the politically connected to avoid service.

-----

????

Anyone with $300 could and did legally purchase draft deferments in the Civil War. You didn't even have to be all that affluent to buy your kid's life.

Posted by: Yudhishthira's Dice at November 15, 2026 12:56 PM (BI5O2)

70 Paul Kersey (Death Wish) was a conscientious objector.

Posted by: Bertram Cabot, Jr. at November 15, 2026 12:56 PM (Cqx++)

71 It's more complicated than you're saying. The reality is that under the surface there is much more integration of "ultra-orthodox" chareidim into the economy, and slowly rising acceptance on principle of military service in that community..
One problem is that rather than seeking ways to integrate the chareidim into the military--an important part of integration into the economy--the out of control left wing reactionaries on the Israeli Supreme Court and the politicized military are trying to make military service more uncomfortable for the mainstream religious population. Why? As the secular Jewish population becomes more open to religion in general, it's threatening to the Left. So the Left pushes Chareidi buttons, and gets objectionable conduct in response which is then used to demonize the Chareidi world in general.
The Left would rather have the Muslim Brotherhood's representatives and other Arab parties hostile to the existence of a Jewish state as keys to the governing coalition than the religious parties if that's what it takes to get rid of Netanyahu and .

Posted by: Peter B at November 15, 2026 12:56 PM (jZmn5)

72 Anyone with $300 could and did legally purchase draft deferments in the Civil War. You didn't even have to be all that affluent to buy your kid's life.

Posted by: Yudhishthira's Dice at November 15, 2026 12:56 PM (BI5O2)

I think the numbers during the ACW were small in comparison to the bullshit during the Vietnam War.

Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo at November 15, 2026 12:57 PM (k5CNB)

73 > Of course it is entirely possible that our own issues will result in the Balkanization of America,...
----------
We're already well on our way to it. Despite the "blue wave" there are plenty of red enclaves that will not abide the left's fever dreams.

It'll be a fight.

Posted by: Martini Farmer at November 15, 2026 12:58 PM (RORbl)

74 Golf course during WWII is truly a first world problem.
Then again everyone needs a little humanity. Big Bands contributed in Europe. Think the guys in the Pacific didn't get relief. No recollection.

Posted by: Braenyard - some Absent Friends are more equal than others _ at November 15, 2026 12:58 PM (6T7Go)

75 68 Are these guys the same branch of Judaism that wears those verkakte suits and hats scaring people and live off of welfare and are digging tunnels all over Manhattan?

Those guys? They're nutso.

Posted by: Maury Sline at November 15, 2026 12:54 PM
++++

The hats can be a game changer.

https://youtu.be/9PmWEElulG8

Posted by: George Costanza at November 15, 2026 12:58 PM (2Ez/1)

76 CBD: Amen and right on.

Posted by: Dr_No at November 15, 2026 12:59 PM (ayRl+)

77 'Blue Wave' - now do statistical probabilities.

Posted by: Braenyard - some Absent Friends are more equal than others _ at November 15, 2026 12:59 PM (6T7Go)

78 Ask your doctor if Chareidim may be right for you.

Posted by: Big Farma at November 15, 2026 01:00 PM (2Ez/1)

79 My older golfing buddy ( now 82) went to OTC and assigned as a golf pro at one of the military courses until he was called up to go to Vietnam. He was assigned to Cam Ranh or Long Binh where he was in charge of issuing leave passes.

Posted by: polynikes at November 15, 2026 01:01 PM (OXhw3)

80 There are other ways of serving without having to carry a gun.

Posted by: The Man from Athens at November 15, 2026 01:02 PM (icmmM)

81 Golf course during WWII is truly a first world problem.
Then again everyone needs a little humanity. Big Bands contributed in Europe. Think the guys in the Pacific didn't get relief. No recollection.

Posted by: Braenyard - some Absent Friends are more equal than others _ at November 15, 2026 12:58 PM (6T7Go

I think the French Open was played every year during WW2. During the occupation the international field was limited to say the least.

Posted by: polynikes at November 15, 2026 01:03 PM (OXhw3)

82 I think the numbers during the ACW were small in comparison to the bullshit during the Vietnam War.
Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo at November 15, 2026 12:57 PM (

I'd have to look it up. But it was enough to kick off the worst riots in US history.

Posted by: Yudhishthira's Dice at November 15, 2026 01:03 PM (BI5O2)

83 NTC established early 20s, think golf course dates from early on. Then again America in WWII had distinctive things reflecting both national wealth and the culture. Ice cream ships. Recreational facilities not far from the front (in Bougainville the US lodgement - with a "hot" perimeter - had baseball leagues and much more, something seen in no other Allied or Axis forward/frontline area).

Posted by: rhomboid at November 15, 2026 01:04 PM (U/Byj)

84 I'd have to look it up. But it was enough to kick off the worst riots in US history.
Posted by: Yudhishthira's Dice at November 15, 2026 01:03 PM (BI5O2)

In NYC . No surprise.

Posted by: polynikes at November 15, 2026 01:05 PM (OXhw3)

85 I'd bet $300 is probably about $15-20k now. I'd drop that without blinking an eye to keep my kid out of one of this regime's zany adventures.

Posted by: Yudhishthira's Dice at November 15, 2026 01:06 PM (BI5O2)

86 I always thought the TV show MASH did a lot to send an anti-draft message. The surgeons being compelled to work in field hospitals under terrible conditions when they could be living with their families and have a lucrative medical practice. Kramer desperately trying to get his Section 8 discharge. It was also airing in the 70s when the Vietnam war was ending.

Posted by: Quarter Twenty at November 15, 2026 01:07 PM (2Ez/1)

87 Some honestly believe that Judaism does not demand that they serve (I think they are incorrect).

Were orthodox Jews exempt from the draft in the US?

Posted by: Oddbob at November 15, 2026 01:11 PM (XQ5t+)

88 85 I'd bet $300 is probably about $15-20k now. I'd drop that without blinking an eye to keep my kid out of one of this regime's zany adventures.

Posted by: Yudhishthira's Dice
---

I'm thinking one could purchase a home in NYC for $300 circa 1862.

Posted by: Braenyard - some Absent Friends are more equal than others _ at November 15, 2026 01:13 PM (6T7Go)

89 Had a draft lottery number of 5. Since I knew I was going, I opted to enlist in the Marine Corps. Best choice of my life (although admittingly, Best Choices in my life is a bit of a short list)

Posted by: USMCMGB at November 15, 2026 01:14 PM (VRxcs)

90
I always thought the TV show MASH did a lot to send an anti-draft message.

___________

Piss on MASH. Both the movie and the series.

Posted by: Hadrian the Seventh at November 15, 2026 01:15 PM (eRlcH)

91 86 I always thought the TV show MASH did a lot to send an anti-draft message.
----

Or it illustrated exactly why we should have the draft.

Posted by: Braenyard - some Absent Friends are more equal than others _ at November 15, 2026 01:15 PM (6T7Go)

92 Byj)

41 Breaking OPSEC a little here, but: there's a tiny cohort of men in the US who never had to register for the draft. Way too old for it now, anyway, but Selective Service never got my information.

There was a lapse when the draft ended, and so did registration, and when registration was re-enabled, was just over the age range.
Posted by: Nazdar at November 15, 2026 12:36 PM (NcvvS)

I’m in that window as well, roughly, if you turned 18 between 1975 and 1980, you weren’t subject to it.

Posted by: Tom Servo at November 15, 2026 01:16 PM (YOZYJ)

93 I'd have to look it up. But it was enough to kick off the worst riots in US history.

Posted by: Yudhishthira's Dice at November 15, 2026 01:03 PM (BI5O2)

It turned into a race riot.

And the deferments (about 15,000,000) during Vietnam dwarfed the numbers of people buying their way out of service during the ACW (about 175,000).

Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo at November 15, 2026 01:17 PM (k5CNB)

94 The hats can be a game changer.
Festive little hats!

Posted by: Commissar of plenty and festive little hats at November 15, 2026 01:17 PM (1BL3C)

95 "Making the world safe for democracy" is a terrible selling point for a draft.

"Making America safe for democracy" can be sold, and has been.

There was no draft in the Mexican War, but "let's steal Northern Mexico" still drove enough recruitment to double the size of the regular Army.

But "nobody attacked us and there's no territory to take and no glory to be gained, but people in DC say its the right thing to do and boy are they ever feeling themselves right now" was always bound to piss off millions of people.

Posted by: Yudhishthira's Dice at November 15, 2026 01:18 PM (BI5O2)

96 Were orthodox Jews exempt from the draft in the US?

Posted by: Oddbob at November 15, 2026 01:11 PM (XQ5t+)

Nope!

Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo at November 15, 2026 01:18 PM (k5CNB)

97 And the disconnect between patriotism and a sense of shared responsibility for the welfare of the country and its people has manifested in many ways...all destructive.

General Welfare has been so abused for over 100 years there will be no going back without a crash. General Welfare (Med care/caid, SS, Means Tested Welfare) is respectively 1.2 B, 0.9 B, 1.6 B, and 1.7 B. Education is another 1.1 T (local and govt) General Welfare system that has very, very little to do with Education except for a few Hard Math and Science programs.

None of these programs actually ask the question: What is necessary for the Average Citizen to be somewhat successful in life and maybe even thrive to help others?
Instead, the question goes more like this: What can we transfer from Group X (based on some vague idea of their needs) to Group Y (based on same vague idea of their capacity to produce Y's needs).

It appears that a level legal field, robust money and banking system, transportation, and basic defense of the Homeland are a 3rd or 4th level afterthought that get seriously discussed by politicians only after a 911, 2008, COVID, or Oct 7 type of crisis.

We are a very unserious Country.

Posted by: r hennigantx at November 15, 2026 01:18 PM (/+uur)

98 if we ever need to reinstate the draft, the current system will magnify the great divide between wealth and influence on one side, and the mostly silent majority of Americans.
-
If the federal government ever *needs* to draft anyone, it is because it is illegitimately pursuing goals of its own design rather than obeying the will of the American people.

In such times, draft dodging is the virtuous choice.

Posted by: Methos, inauthentic X-bot account at November 15, 2026 01:19 PM (vSvIl)

99
85 I'd bet $300 is probably about $15-20k now. I'd drop that without blinking an eye to keep my kid out of one of this regime's zany adventures.
Posted by: Yudhishthira's Dice at November 15, 2026 01:06 PM (BI5O2)

The problem was that it was really just paying for a fresh Irish immigrant to go in his place. This had a lot to do with the New York Draft riots in 1863.

Posted by: Tom Servo at November 15, 2026 01:19 PM (YOZYJ)

100 Conscription is slavery.

Posted by: Speller at November 15, 2026 01:20 PM (pSotA)

101 I enlisted ’cos of the draft. Imagine how pissed I was to find out AFTER I enlisted when my draft notice arrived 2 weeks later and I learned that my number was 363 …

Posted by: Dr_No at November 15, 2026 01:21 PM (ayRl+)

102 Duck.ai, GP-6 Luna

A modest detached home in or near New York City likely cost roughly $500–$1,200 to build in the mid-to-late 1860s; one contemporary guide gives those estimates for a “farm cottage” and a “low-priced cottage.” That’s a useful ballpark for 1862, not a documented 1862 sale price—and land could add substantially to the cost.
Mizzou

For a home within the city, the price could be quite different: available historical research tracks New York housing prices only through 1860 and shows that location and quality mattered, so I can’t pin down a reliable single 1862 purchase price from these sources.
ssrn.com
1

Posted by: Braenyard - some Absent Friends are more equal than others _ at November 15, 2026 01:23 PM (6T7Go)

103 I've read that only 10% of the military during the Vietnam War served in Vietnam.

Posted by: polynikes at November 15, 2026 01:26 PM (OXhw3)

104 It turned into a race riot.

And the deferments (about 15,000,000) during Vietnam dwarfed the numbers of people buying their way out of service during the ACW (about 175,000).

Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo
---

Those numbers should be expressed on a per capita basis.

Posted by: Braenyard - some Absent Friends are more equal than others _ at November 15, 2026 01:28 PM (6T7Go)

105 And the deferments (about 15,000,000) during Vietnam dwarfed the numbers of people buying their way out of service during the ACW (about 175,000).
Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo at November 15, 2026 01:

Again, I'd have to look it up. It's a tough calculation.

But remember that approximately the same number of Union troops fought in the CW as Vietnam, in a fifth of the time, within a population a tenth the size, in a war with much, much, much higher casualty rates. 175,000 deferments is a shitload more than it sounds like in a raw number comparison.

Posted by: Yudhishthira's Dice at November 15, 2026 01:28 PM (BI5O2)

106 Afternoon call. Thx CBD.
Read recently that there is one city in Israel if about 300k which is almost entirely Haredi. Do none of them serve? If Israel ever got overrun, God forbid, do they think they'd be left alone? Bad idea

Posted by: Smell the Glove at November 15, 2026 01:33 PM (DI5LM)

107 But remember that approximately the same number of Union troops fought in the CW as Vietnam, in a fifth of the time, within a population a tenth the size, in a war with much, much, much higher casualty rates. 175,000 deferments is a shitload more than it sounds like in a raw number comparison.

Posted by: Yudhishthira's Dice at November 15, 2026 01:28 PM (BI5O2)

Yeah, percentages is a better measure...
Like Genghis Khan's murder spree killed an estimated 40M people...which killed an estimated 10% to 15% of the entire Erf's population at that time.
WW2 killed an estimated 60M people, which was around 2% or 3% of the world's population.

Posted by: jim (in Kalifornia) at November 15, 2026 01:37 PM (l3cgK)

108 I enlisted ’cos of the draft. Imagine how pissed I was to find out AFTER I enlisted when my draft notice arrived 2 weeks later and I learned that my number was 363 …
Posted by: Dr_No
----------

Myself and two other troops were sitting in the Post Road bar, watching the televised drawing of the Draft Lottery number (s). The agreement was the guy whose number was drawn first would pay for the beer. It wasn't me. So, since then I have occasionally observed that all that the lottery did for me, was to buy me a beer.

Posted by: Mike Hammer, etc., etc. at November 15, 2026 01:38 PM (XeU6L)

109 The problem was that it was really just paying for a fresh Irish immigrant to go in his place. This had a lot to do with the New York Draft riots in 1863.
Posted by: Tom Servo at November 15, 2026 01:19 PM (YOZYJ)

Sounds like a problem for NYers and Irishmen to me.

Posted by: Yudhishthira's Dice at November 15, 2026 01:38 PM (BI5O2)

110 But remember that approximately the same number of Union troops fought in the CW as Vietnam, in a fifth of the time, within a population a tenth the size, in a war with much, much, much higher casualty rates. 175,000 deferments is a shitload more than it sounds like in a raw number comparison.

Posted by: Yudhishthira's Dice at November 15, 2026 01:28 PM (BI5O2)

3% got deferments or bought out of service in the ACW

33% got deferments or otherwise avoided service in Vietnam.

So...Vietnam was about 10X.

Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo at November 15, 2026 01:38 PM (k5CNB)

111 You also need to see where the deferments/substitutions were clustered. Out in the boonies, you probably didn't see many (due to their cost), but in the richer enclaves I bet you saw plenty, especially heavily populated enclaves. In NY it was definitely obvious who was getting out of service...

Posted by: jim (in Kalifornia) at November 15, 2026 01:41 PM (l3cgK)

112 I guess going to Hanoi was considered much less desirable than going to Vicksburg.

Posted by: Casual observer at November 15, 2026 01:42 PM (2Ez/1)

113 except for a few Hard Math and Science programs.
Math invented by Africans but stolen by them old greek homos.

Posted by: Commissar of plenty and festive little hats at November 15, 2026 01:45 PM (6eQus)

114 I've mentioned this before, but Natan Goldschneider
@NGoldschneider on X has been doing a very funny satirical series of tweets on Israeli society and culture.

And, thanks to evil AI, Goldschneider's tweets, which are written in Polish, are usually seamlessly translated into English.

One interesting transformation of X in the last year or two is that most tweets are now automatically translated into your native language, no matter what language they were written in.

Elon Musk has solved the Tower of Babel problem.

Posted by: The ARC of History! at November 15, 2026 01:50 PM (aD4fx)

115 Join the Navy or Air Force and your chances of going to Vietnam dropped tremendously.

Join the Marines and your chances increased tremendously. I think 55-65% of Marines during that period went to Vietnam.

Posted by: polynikes at November 15, 2026 01:52 PM (OXhw3)

116 Yesterday kept seeing videos of the space ship booster but didn't get what was happening. Quite a feat if it all worked

Posted by: Skip at November 15, 2026 01:53 PM (Ia/+0)

117 Elon Musk has solved the Tower of Babel problem.
-
I doubt that will prove to be a good thing.

God separated us for a reason.

Posted by: Methos, inauthentic X-bot account at November 15, 2026 01:53 PM (vSvIl)

118 Exemptions beyond medical cause resentment.
Posted by: polynikes

Some people get exempted because the work they do stateside is as critical as fighting.

My maternal grandfather was exempted from WWII because he was a farmer. All his brothers went into the Navy, I think.

Posted by: FeatherBlade at November 15, 2026 01:53 PM (C0Nlv)

119 As to the overarching question about religious or other exemptions: yes, yes and yes.

Take any exemption you can and dodge if you can't. Shoot your son in the foot and go to jail for a little bit if you have to. Nobody should have to die for the Big Guy's 10% rakeoff.

Fuck all of that. If the regime wants a war let them fight it without their precious cornfed flyover-boy cannon fodder.

Posted by: Yudhishthira's Dice at November 15, 2026 01:55 PM (BI5O2)

120 Elon Musk has solved the Tower of Babel problem.

Posted by: The ARC of History! at November 15, 2026 01:50 PM (aD4fx)

Except for all the babble that comes from the MSM...

Posted by: jim (in Kalifornia) at November 15, 2026 01:57 PM (l3cgK)

121 So Elon gave everyone a Babel fish ( Hitchhiker's Guide)

Posted by: Smell the Glove at November 15, 2026 01:58 PM (DI5LM)

122 If the regime wants a war let them fight it without their precious cornfed flyover-boy cannon fodder.
-
That's pretty much the reason for their obsession with drones and AI.

Posted by: Methos, inauthentic X-bot account at November 15, 2026 01:58 PM (vSvIl)

123 I doubt that will prove to be a good thing.

God separated us for a reason.

It means that it is harder for the "Palestinians" to say one thing in English, and a very different thing in Arabic.

An example, from a popular chant:

In English:"From the River to the Sea, Palestine Will Be Free!"

In Arabic: "From Water To Water, Palestine Will Be Arab!"

Posted by: The ARC of History! at November 15, 2026 01:58 PM (aD4fx)

124 I registered for selective ser ice in 1984, but it was merely a formality, as I was pretty sure I would be enlisting at some point. I postponed it until I was 21.

Posted by: Pug Mahon, Sounding the Carnyx at November 15, 2026 01:58 PM (0aYVJ)

125 Some people get exempted because the work they do stateside is as critical as fighting.

My maternal grandfather was exempted from WWII because he was a farmer. All his brothers went into the Navy, I think.
Posted by: FeatherBlade at November 15, 2026 01:53 PM (C0Nlv)

Farmers could apply for a deferment but even those deferments were reviewed as the war progressed.

Posted by: polynikes at November 15, 2026 02:00 PM (OXhw3)

126 Knew a guy who's dad had a heart attack flying the Berlin airlift. Had some surviving son draft exemption.

Posted by: Commissar of plenty and festive little hats at November 15, 2026 02:00 PM (6eQus)

127 118 Exemptions beyond medical cause resentment.
Posted by: polynikes

Some people get exempted because the work they do stateside is as critical as fighting.

My maternal grandfather was exempted from WWII because he was a farmer. All his brothers went into the Navy, I think.

Posted by: FeatherBlade at November 15, 2026 01:53 PM (C0Nlv)

My grandfather and the next brother down were in the National Guard and ended up in WW1, along with the youngest who served in the Navy. Records had Grandpa's middle brother serving under Pershing chasing Pancho Villa in 1916...so the joke we had was that one side of the family was chasing after the other side of the family (although that wasn't technically true, as my Mom's side were in Jalisco state, a long way off from the border).

Posted by: jim (in Kalifornia) at November 15, 2026 02:01 PM (l3cgK)

128 1st WORLD NOOD

Posted by: Skip at November 15, 2026 02:01 PM (Ia/+0)

129 My maternal grandfather was exempted from WWII because he was a farmer. All his brothers went into the Navy, I think.
Posted by: FeatherBlade at November 15, 2026 01:53 PM (C0Nlv)

Mine was a longshoreman in Washington.

Paternal grandpa was Army Air Corps reserve, built bombers (machinist and draftsman) for Boeing.

Posted by: Pug Mahon, Sounding the Carnyx at November 15, 2026 02:01 PM (0aYVJ)

130 Join the Navy or Air Force and your chances of going to Vietnam dropped tremendously.
-------

Coasties. It didn't drop to zero, but pretty low. 7 guys.

Posted by: Mike Hammer, etc., etc. at November 15, 2026 02:02 PM (XeU6L)

131 My maternal grandfather was exempted from WWII because he was a farmer. All his brothers went into the Navy, I think.

Issac Asimov, the science fiction writer, got a draft exemption because he was doing war work at the Philadelphia Navy Yard.

When the war ended, Asimov, along with many others, was drafted into the Army, since it was felt that it was only fair that the people who got war exemptions do occupation duty after the war.

Posted by: The ARC of History! at November 15, 2026 02:02 PM (aD4fx)

132 Knew a guy who's dad had a heart attack flying the Berlin airlift. Had some surviving son draft exemption.
Posted by: Commissar of plenty
-------

Sole Surviving Son.

Posted by: Mike Hammer, etc., etc. at November 15, 2026 02:03 PM (XeU6L)

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