Gun Thread: Late July Edition!

Howdy, Y'all! Welcome to the wondrously fabulous Gun Thread! As always, I want to thank all of our regulars for being here week in and week out, and also offer a bigly Gun Thread welcome to any newcomers who may be joining us tonight. Howdy and thank you for stopping by! I hope you find our wacky conversation on the subject of guns 'n shooting both enjoyable and informative. You are always welcome to lurk in the shadows of shame, but I'd like to invite you to jump into the conversation, say howdy, and tell us what kind of shooting you like to do!

Holy Shitballs! How in the ever-loving Hell did it get to be late July? Know what's coming next? August! August is coming next! Going to be a quick one tonight, guys and gals, as I goofed around and waited until the last minute to write something.

With that, step into the dojo and let's get to the gun stuff below, shall we?

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FUNdamentals

Our pal Jer focuses in fundamentals! Why don't you?

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More Jer!

Take-down and cleaning of the AR-15

***
More Cleaning!

With our pal GunBlue490.

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NEW!! Sig P320 Vid

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Navy Ball Bearings For Quiet Operation!

We had a good time with thrust bearings last week, so let's beat a good thing to death.

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Walt Disney and Camoflage

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Our Pal Nitrogen Triiodide

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Highway Patrol

This week's episode: Prospector.

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Island of Lost Women!

OK, which one of you clowns lost the women?!

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Musical Interlude
The Who with Eminence Front.

NOTE: It's a put on.

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Here are some different online cigar vendors. You will find they not only carry different brands and different lines from those brands, but also varying selections of vitolas (sizes/shapes) of given lines. It's good to have options, especially if you're looking for a specific cigar.

Cigarsinternational.com
Cigarpage.com
Famous-smoke.com
Cigarsdaily.com
Neptunecigar.com
Smallbatchcigar.com
Bobalu Cigar Company
Cigarbid.com
Nicks Cigar World New!

A note about sources. The brick & mortar/online divide exists with cigars, as with guns, and most consumer products, with respect to price. As with guns - since both are "persecuted industries", basically - I make a conscious effort to source at least some of my cigars from my local store(s). It's a small thing, but the brick & mortar segment for both guns and tobacco are precious, and worth supporting where you can. And if you're lucky enough to have a good cigar store/lounge available, they're often a good social event with many dangerous people of the sort who own scary gunz, or read smart military blogs like this one. -rhomboid

Anyone have others to include? Perhaps a small local roller who makes a cigar you like? Send me your recommendation and a link to the site!

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Ammo Link-O-Rama
I'm really very seriously not kidding around anymore. Buy Ammo
AmmoSeek - online ammo search tool
GunBot - online ammo search tool
SG Ammo
Palmetto State Armory
Georgia Arms
AmmoMan
Target Sports USA
Bud's Gun Shop
American Elite Ammo
Lucky Gunner Ammo NEW!

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Please note the new and improved protonmail account gunthread at protonmail dot com. An informal Gun Thread archive can be found HERE. Future expansion plans are in the works for the site Weasel Gun Thread. If you have a question you would like to ask Gun Thread Staff offline, just send us a note and we'll do our best to answer. If you care to share the story of your favorite firearm, send a picture with your nic and tell us what you sadly lost in the tragic canoe accident. If you would like to remain completely anonymous, just say so. Lurkers are always welcome!

That's it for this week - have you been to the range?

Posted by: Weasel at 07:00 PM

Comments

(Jump to bottom of comments)

1 st!

Good Sunday evening, gub 'ettes and 'rons, and a special made-it-to-the-range-and-practiced-fundamentals greeting to our host Weasel! More detail to follow on my first range session in ... forever.

Posted by: Schnorflepuppy (OT but harmless) at July 27, 2025 07:00 PM (v23vE)

2 Welcome!

Posted by: Duncanthrax at July 27, 2025 07:00 PM (0sNs1)

3 Thanks Weasel!

Posted by: scottst at July 27, 2025 07:00 PM (oI2Vm)

4 Next shooter's line called.

Posted by: Duncanthrax at July 27, 2025 07:01 PM (0sNs1)

5 Hello, Weasel!

Posted by: Ed L at July 27, 2025 07:01 PM (BCwQW)

6 Gub!

Posted by: Notorious BFD at July 27, 2025 07:02 PM (mH6SG)

7 Had a lot of fun with Nitrogen Triiodide in teen years.

Posted by: Duncanthrax at July 27, 2025 07:03 PM (0sNs1)

8 Good evening Horde. Thanks Weasel!

Posted by: TRex - are there door prizes at this party? at July 27, 2025 07:03 PM (IQ6Gq)

9 Good evening, afternoon, depending on time zone.

Thanks again, Weasel. Extended range report to follow.

Actually, there are two range reports.

I've finally decided my reloading super power isn't original mistakes.

Rather, it's my ability to make all of the mistakes.

Posted by: blake - semi lurker in marginal standing (tT6L1) at July 27, 2025 07:03 PM (tT6L1)

10 Pew pew

Posted by: Rancherbob at July 27, 2025 07:03 PM (vWpsl)

11 Retiring is very time consuming ain't it.

Posted by: Ben Had at July 27, 2025 07:04 PM (HFcKg)

12 Evening everyone!!

How goes the vacation Weasel? Or have you finally admitted that you are on permanent holiday?

No range report. Might take a trip to the range Monday or Tuesday. Methinks I will only concentrate on handgun.

Posted by: Scuba_Dude at July 27, 2025 07:05 PM (Jm6kM)

13 Yay! Gubs!

Posted by: RedMindBlueState at July 27, 2025 07:05 PM (Wnv9h)

14 OK, which one of you clowns lost the women?!
----
They're always in the last place you look.

Posted by: "Perfessor" Squirrel at July 27, 2025 07:05 PM (IBQGV)

15 Bring it, Schnorflepuppy!

Posted by: blake - semi lurker in marginal standing (tT6L1) at July 27, 2025 07:05 PM (tT6L1)

16 Retiring is very time consuming ain't it.
Posted by: Ben Had at July 27, 2025 07:04 PM (HFcKg)
----
I find that by carefully pacing myself I can meet the high demands that retirement presents.

Posted by: Weasel at July 27, 2025 07:06 PM (tmCNn)

17 Schnorflepuppy for the win!!

Posted by: Scuba_Dude at July 27, 2025 07:06 PM (Jm6kM)

18 Good Sunday evening Weasel and Horde...no range report this week, it was a Pittsburgh weekend. But looking forward to watching (several times) the cleaning videos. Many thanks for those. And yes, of course I will be watching the fundamentals one too.

Posted by: The Grateful at July 27, 2025 07:06 PM (IQ6Gq)

19 Looks like whatever was affecting Weasel in the last couple of weeks is subsiding. While still slightly subdued, his normally Gunny Hartmann-esque emphasis on Fundamentals appears to be returning, as well as his exhortation to buy ammo.

Maybe we'll get a FSJ & Gertie sitrep this week.

Posted by: Duncanthrax at July 27, 2025 07:07 PM (0sNs1)

20 Howdy, all. It may be the end of July, but there's damn sure a lot of summer weather yet to come.

Posted by: That SOB Van Owen at July 27, 2025 07:07 PM (vYBmu)

21 The way I made a 11 minute version of Eminence Front was to tape it four time. Then I played while skiing.

Posted by: Jukin the Deplorable a Clear and Present Danger at July 27, 2025 07:07 PM (17s+e)

22 Sounds like Weasel has found a great place to hide from WW and the honey do list.

Posted by: blake - semi lurker in marginal standing (tT6L1) at July 27, 2025 07:07 PM (tT6L1)

23 Posted by: blake - semi lurker in marginal standing (tT6L1) at July 27, 2025 07:03 PM (tT6L1)

Just be sure to avoid terminal mistakes!

Posted by: Rancherbob at July 27, 2025 07:08 PM (vWpsl)

24 Maybe we'll get a FSJ & Gertie sitrep this week.
Posted by: Duncanthrax at July 27, 2025 07:07 PM (0sNs1)
----
I can probably handle that!

Posted by: Weasel at July 27, 2025 07:08 PM (tmCNn)

25 Grateful, are you keeping up with your grip exercise?

Posted by: Ben Had at July 27, 2025 07:09 PM (HFcKg)

26 Good evening to everyone
No shooting recently, and probably very limited in the near future. Maybe one handed - Little slip Tuesday evening and I’ve got 2 cut tendons on the back of my left hand. Repair is scheduled for tomorrow afternoon at 12:45. Any prayers gratefully accepted.

Thank you GunHorde and Weasel.

Posted by: Coelacanth at July 27, 2025 07:09 PM (CZjwE)

27 Posted by: Coelacanth at July 27, 2025 07:09 PM (CZjwE)
----
Yikes! Good luck with that.

Posted by: Weasel at July 27, 2025 07:10 PM (tmCNn)

28 Howdy, all. It may be the end of July, but there's damn sure a lot of summer weather yet to come.
Posted by: That SOB Van Owen
************
Any of you searching for rain, it's all on Rt 68 in WV. Absolutely hideous weather, regardless of time of day or season. Especially Morgantown, WV. Avoid at all costs.

Posted by: The Grateful at July 27, 2025 07:10 PM (IQ6Gq)

29 She got the big guns pointed at my heart
Bang-bang, shooting like a firing squad
Big guns, she blew me away
And I went down in flames

Posted by: Elric the Bladiest Blade at July 27, 2025 07:11 PM (2RdRx)

30 25/ yes I am!

Posted by: The Grateful at July 27, 2025 07:12 PM (IQ6Gq)

31 Island of Lost Women!
If they'd learn to read a map, they wouldn't be lost. Right, guys? And they wouldn't have to ask directions, either.

Posted by: GWB at July 27, 2025 07:12 PM (nVSDK)

32 I hear the P320 is bad.

Posted by: Jeff Weimer at July 27, 2025 07:12 PM (eB3sS)

33 Posted by: Coelacanth
***********
Ouch! You, and your medical team, will be in my prayers. Hope it goes smoothly and your recovery is quick and uneventful

Posted by: The Grateful at July 27, 2025 07:13 PM (IQ6Gq)

34 Range report.

Threw another 50 rounds down range on my newly acquired 1911.

It’s an amazing pistol. Unlike anything I’ve ever shot. Can’t wait to get more rounds down range.

Finished with the Ruger Mark IV. I enjoy finishing an intense range visit with my .22. His name is George. I love George.

Posted by: nurse ratched at July 27, 2025 07:13 PM (g+HUj)

35 I hear the P320 is bad.
Posted by: Jeff Weimer at July 27, 2025 07:12 PM

It's certainly been downhill since the M1911A1.

Posted by: Duncanthrax at July 27, 2025 07:14 PM (0sNs1)

36 Any thought from this corner about the P320 debacle?

I am not sure I can believe that a gun this widely distributed would not have a significantly larger number of accidents associated with it.

Posted by: Pete Bog at July 27, 2025 07:14 PM (qQfd5)

37 No range time for me this weekend. Too hot outside. Cleaned guns instead.

Posted by: Ed L at July 27, 2025 07:14 PM (BCwQW)

38 The Island of Lost Women is pretty close to the Island Of Women Who Can't Parallel Park.

Posted by: fd at July 27, 2025 07:15 PM (vFG9F)

39 Howdy

I'm back in Babylon DC. Meh

Actually got some range time up in Amish Country. Not very long, unfortunately but enough to get the red dot line up with my S&W FPC .9mm. I really liked it. Easy to shoot and mostly center mass (only 25 ft). Time was against me as my friend had something to do that night. Shot the .357 to. Fun, just not long enough. There is a range that is 'easy' to get to near me. Down the street, about 20-30 minutes, depending on traffic. It's just traffic sucks here and its hard to get anywhere. May drop by this week and see if I can get an hour. I'm not a member. I can buy ammo if I can't get shooting time.

Posted by: Puddleglum, drive by pew pew at July 27, 2025 07:15 PM (sAmhv)

40 I hear the P320 is bad.
Posted by: Jeff Weimer at July 27, 2025 07:12 PM (eB3sS)

Yes, they are bad. Very, very bad. If you have one, you should immediately send it to me for proper disposal.

Posted by: Idaho Spudboy at July 27, 2025 07:15 PM (4rENN)

41 Threw another 50 rounds down range on my newly acquired 1911.

It’s an amazing pistol. Unlike anything I’ve ever shot. Can’t wait to get more rounds down range.
Posted by: nurse ratched at July 27, 2025 07:13 PM

Did you follow CBD's advice to get it in 9mm?

Posted by: Duncanthrax at July 27, 2025 07:16 PM (0sNs1)

42 No range time for me this weekend. Too hot outside. Cleaned guns instead.
Posted by: Ed L at July 27, 2025 07:14 PM (BCwQW)
----
No kidding. Ridiculous!! I'm installing a fan on the deck.

Posted by: Weasel at July 27, 2025 07:17 PM (tmCNn)

43 Nurse, do you pet your pistol while calling it George?

Posted by: blake - semi lurker in marginal standing (tT6L1) at July 27, 2025 07:17 PM (tT6L1)

44 "Did you follow CBD's advice to get it in 9mm?
Posted by: Duncanthrax"

What?? Is that what they do in France?

Posted by: fd at July 27, 2025 07:17 PM (vFG9F)

45 The Island of Lost Women

I saw that movie decades after its release as a little kid. When they landed on the island with three babes and no other men, I thought ‘shit, that sucks.’

Posted by: Elric the Bladiest Blade at July 27, 2025 07:18 PM (2RdRx)

46 Weasel, just get one of those huge portable fans like we use in the barn.

Posted by: Ben Had at July 27, 2025 07:19 PM (HFcKg)

47 Obviously, the Island was primitive, without a single luxury. Which means the lost women couldn't stop and ask directions.

Posted by: blake - semi lurker in marginal standing (tT6L1) at July 27, 2025 07:20 PM (tT6L1)

48 Taunt nurse at your own risk. She will be seeing you all soon.

Posted by: Ben Had at July 27, 2025 07:21 PM (HFcKg)

49 Weasel, just get one of those huge portable fans like we use in the barn.
Posted by: Ben Had at July 27, 2025 07:19 PM (HFcKg)
----
This is probably a 18 inch fan and I bought an adjustable bracket so it can be pointed directly on me and no one else.

Posted by: Weasel at July 27, 2025 07:22 PM (tmCNn)

50 Any thought from this corner about the P320 debacle?

I am not sure I can believe that a gun this widely distributed would not have a significantly larger number of accidents associated with it.
Posted by: Pete Bog at July 27, 2025 07:14 PM (qQfd5)

See Ian McCollum's (Forgotten Weapons YT channel) take on this. I agree w/ him that SIG now has a bigger PR problem than engineering problem on its hands. Even if SIG can rework the P320's action to eliminate the source of the discharges, the M17/M18 handguns might now have the same stigma attached to the M1892 Colt New Army/Navy revolvers in .38 Long Colt if its users lose faith in the pistol's safety. I think at some point US Army Ordinance will have little choice but to reopen the Modular Handgun System contract again given what's happened. Congress might not give them any choice about the matter.

Posted by: Ed L at July 27, 2025 07:23 PM (BCwQW)

51 Taunt nurse at your own risk. She will be seeing you all soon.
Posted by: Ben Had at July 27, 2025 07:21 PM (HFcKg)
-------------

Nurse is easy to distract. Just offer to let her shoot a pistol she has yet to try. Though, there is the whole, "Darn you, I can't afford to keep buying more guns" complaint one might hear.

Posted by: blake - semi lurker in marginal standing (tT6L1) at July 27, 2025 07:24 PM (tT6L1)

52 Sorry... O/T but oh so juicy...

Seems that Epstein, when he got his sweetheart deal with the Feds, had given the Feds a Legal document claiming he was a 'Founder' of the Clinton Global Initiative... what was one reason he was given that deal.

Was part of the documents just released.

Posted by: Romeo13 at July 27, 2025 07:24 PM (mP0Kj)

53 Weasel, just get one of those huge portable fans like we use in the barn.
Posted by: Ben Had at July 27, 2025 07:19 PM (HFcKg)
——-
Portacool Apex 6500 for the win ….

Posted by: Elric the Bladiest Blade at July 27, 2025 07:24 PM (2RdRx)

54 Posted by: Ed L at July 27, 2025 07:23 PM (BCwQW)
-----
I almost included that vid this week! I can add it now if all y'all would like me to.

Posted by: Weasel at July 27, 2025 07:24 PM (tmCNn)

55 There seems to be a lot of "lost " islands. I wonder if there is an island of lost socks.

Posted by: Have you seen my sock? at July 27, 2025 07:24 PM (vFG9F)

56 What?? Is that what they do in France?
Posted by: fd at July 27, 2025 07:17 PM

Not just France. Apparently, they're big fans of 9mm in most of Europe.

Rumor is that, having been exposed, CBD is becoming quite the aficionado of it.

Posted by: Duncanthrax at July 27, 2025 07:25 PM (0sNs1)

57 I think at some point US Army Ordinance will have little choice but to reopen the Modular Handgun System contract again given what's happened. Congress might not give them any choice about the matter.
Posted by: Ed L at July 27, 2025 07:23 PM (BCwQW)

Simpler, bring back the 1911 A1... machine it to modern specs and metallurgy.

Posted by: Romeo13 at July 27, 2025 07:26 PM (mP0Kj)

58 Since it’s the Late July post, I’m here, fashionably late.

Posted by: RI Red at July 27, 2025 07:27 PM (ZbDxc)

59 Any thought from this corner about the P320 debacle?

I am not sure I can believe that a gun this widely distributed would not have a significantly larger number of accidents associated with it.
Posted by: Pete Bog at July 27, 2025 07:14 PM (qQfd5)

The only P320 I have any trigger time on is the slide and FCU installed my B&T BWC-9 (concealable folding carbine). It's notable that the B&T user manual specifically states that the BWC-9 should NOT be carried with a round in the chamber.

Posted by: Ed L at July 27, 2025 07:29 PM (BCwQW)

60 Since it’s the Late July post, I’m here, fashionably late.
Posted by: RI Red at July 27, 2025 07:27 PM

Well, no "First!" for you, and yet *another* mark on your Permanent Record? Duuuude.

Posted by: Duncanthrax at July 27, 2025 07:30 PM (0sNs1)

61 All of my 1911's have great triggers. Because the trigger on the 1911 tends to be superior to most of what's out there, I don't much care for other semi-auto handguns. Heck, I find it hard to overlook the trigger on the Browning High Power and that's, arguably, one of the best looking handguns ever made.

Posted by: blake - semi lurker in marginal standing (tT6L1) at July 27, 2025 07:30 PM (tT6L1)

62 57 There is also the option of getting away from handguns and issuing compact PDWs. IIRC, the Corps, in the early 80s, was considering it with a TO of only three handguns per platoon (Plt leader, corpsman, RTO). They were considering MP5s for all others that would normally be handgun armed.

Posted by: bill in arkansas, not gonna comply with nuttin, waiting for the 0300 knock on the door at July 27, 2025 07:30 PM (gm9Sb)

63

How about the Mesa of Lost Women?

https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0046066

Posted by: Bertram Cabot, Jr. at July 27, 2025 07:31 PM (63Dwl)

64 RI Red, you have less than 80 days left.

Posted by: Ben Had at July 27, 2025 07:32 PM (HFcKg)

65 Simpler, bring back the 1911 A1... machine it to modern specs and metallurgy.
Posted by: Romeo13 at July 27, 2025 07:26 PM

If by modern specs, you mean 'tighter', maybe not. One of the reasons for its looseness was to come up out of mud and function.

Posted by: Duncanthrax at July 27, 2025 07:32 PM (0sNs1)

66 38 The Island of Lost Women is pretty close to the Island Of Women Who Can't Parallel Park.
Posted by: fd at July 27, 2025 07:15 PM (vFG9F)

But... how'd they find the Island of Lost Womenz?

Posted by: Romeo13 at July 27, 2025 07:32 PM (mP0Kj)

67 Nurse, what 1911 manufacturer?

Posted by: Hrothgar, The Hrothgar at July 27, 2025 07:32 PM (hOUT3)

68 The Island of Lost Women

I saw that movie decades after its release as a little kid. When they landed on the island with three babes and no other men, I thought ‘shit, that sucks.’
Posted by: Elric the Bladiest Blade at July 27, 2025 07:18 PM (2RdRx)

one of my favorite MST3k episodes is "Horrors of Spider Island." Written by a teenage boy, or an Italian man, or a teenage Italian boy.

Posted by: Mike the Narf at July 27, 2025 07:32 PM (0aYVJ)

69 I almost included that vid this week! I can add it now if all y'all would like me to.
Posted by: Weasel at July 27, 2025 07:24 PM (tmCNn)

If not this week, then next week. As a choice made by DOD w/ taxpayer money, I think it's inevitable that Congress will get involved before too much longer. Which is where the PR issues will really come into play for SIG and its detractors.

Posted by: Ed L at July 27, 2025 07:33 PM (BCwQW)

70 Added the 'Forgotten Weapons' vid on the Sig

Posted by: Weasel at July 27, 2025 07:33 PM (tmCNn)

71 Had a chance to shoot a friend's new HK CC9 (right nomenclature?). Nice little carry gun. Any opinions?
My Walther PPS (2, alas) shoots fine and conceals well, so no real reason to change

Posted by: YellowBird at July 27, 2025 07:33 PM (Q9/+7)

72 Range report: Took the S&W Shield 2.0 out for its first action in quite a while. First couple of magazines at 7 yards, I was attacked by the flinchopotamus - low and left. I dialed in by reducing the distance to 3 yards and remembered the smooth trigger pull fundamental.

The targets I scored at 7 yards:
Strong hand only: 18 pts. All to the left, mostly low.
Weak hand only: 36 pts. All to the right, some high, some low
Both hands, concentrate on grip and stance: 48 pts. One obvious flinch low and to the left
Both hands, fast fire on one breath: 56 pts. Actually two breaths, because the crap ammo I was trying to get rid of had a light primer strike failure from which I had to recover.
Both hands, breathe on each round: 53 pts. Another obvious flinch low and left

Posted by: Schnorflepuppy (OT but harmless) at July 27, 2025 07:34 PM (v23vE)

73 Well, no "First!" for you, and yet *another* mark on your Permanent Record? Duuuude.
Posted by: Duncanthrax at July 27, 2025 07:30 PM (0sNs1

Howsomever, I do have a Range Report in which I report that my ancestors no longer feel dishonored.

Posted by: RI Red at July 27, 2025 07:34 PM (ZbDxc)

74 I find it hard to overlook the trigger on the Browning High Power and that's, arguably, one of the best looking handguns ever made.
Posted by: blake - semi lurker in marginal standing (tT6L1) at July 27, 2025 07:30 PM

SA, for example, has removed the magazine safety interlock, and improved the trigger. Still, the 'glass rod' feeling of a good 1911 trigger is hard to replicate.

Posted by: Duncanthrax at July 27, 2025 07:34 PM (0sNs1)

75 RI Red, you have less than 80 days left.
Posted by: Ben Had at July 27, 2025 07:32 PM (HFcKg)

80 days of, “Please, Mrs. Red!”

Posted by: RI Red at July 27, 2025 07:35 PM (ZbDxc)

76 Three women, eh? First off, who are these women?

Posted by: Eromero at July 27, 2025 07:35 PM (LHPAg)

77 Excellent, Schnorflepuppy. Amazing how sneaky Flinchopotomi are, right?

Posted by: blake - semi lurker in marginal standing (tT6L1) at July 27, 2025 07:35 PM (tT6L1)

78 26 ... "Little slip Tuesday evening and I’ve got 2 cut tendons on the back of my left hand. Repair is scheduled for to"morrow afternoon at 12:45. Any prayers gratefully accepted.
Posted by: Coelacanth at July 27, 2025 07:09 PM (CZjwE)

Damn! Prayers started. One suggestion from someone who had tendons(ankle in my case) repaired: follow the rehab instructions that will come. It's easy to shield the damaged area but that will delay getting full function back.

Posted by: JTB at July 27, 2025 07:36 PM (yTvNw)

79 Any shot that NZFrank will be at the TxMoMe?

Posted by: Duncanthrax at July 27, 2025 07:37 PM (0sNs1)

80 80 days of, “Please, Mrs. Red!”
Posted by: RI Red at July 27, 2025 07:35 PM (ZbDxc)
---------------

Have you tried a shiny object or three as a bribe?

Posted by: blake - semi lurker in marginal standing (tT6L1) at July 27, 2025 07:37 PM (tT6L1)

81 All of my 1911's have great triggers. Because the trigger on the 1911 tends to be superior to most of what's out there, I don't much care for other semi-auto handguns. Heck, I find it hard to overlook the trigger on the Browning High Power and that's, arguably, one of the best looking handguns ever made.
Posted by: blake - semi lurker in marginal standing (tT6L1) at July 27, 2025 07:30 PM (tT6L1)
Same here. The High Power is beautiful, but its trigger can't compare with the 1911

Posted by: That SOB Van Owen at July 27, 2025 07:37 PM (vYBmu)

82 Duncanthrax, it has been mentioned.

Posted by: Ben Had at July 27, 2025 07:37 PM (HFcKg)

83 (cont) I don't know the IPSC designation of the targets, but they are from EZ2Ctargets.com, style 12. Anyway, I was able to identify some of my bad habits in real time and (mostly) correct them, but the less said about the initial ~40 warmup rounds, the better.

Posted by: Schnorflepuppy (OT but harmless) at July 27, 2025 07:38 PM (v23vE)

84 71
Posted by: YellowBird at July 27, 2025 07:33 PM (Q9/+7)

I shot Ed L's CC9 last weekend and was very impressed with it. I may be a buyer in the very near future!

Posted by: Hrothgar, The Hrothgar at July 27, 2025 07:39 PM (hOUT3)

85 Simpler, bring back the 1911 A1... machine it to modern specs and metallurgy.
Posted by: Romeo13 at July 27, 2025 07:26 PM (mP0Kj)

The fastest way to bring back the 1911 would be to put in a new delivery order on the USMC contract w/ Colt for the M45A1 (which is already type standardized and has an NSN number). As a practical matter, I think it'll be easier to simply drag M9s out of storage and reissue those.

The primary drawback of the M45A1 is its weight compared to the alternatives. It'll also cost more per gun than the M9 or Glock 19. Finally, .45 ACP is not a NATO standard caliber.

Posted by: Ed L at July 27, 2025 07:39 PM (BCwQW)

86 80 days of, “Please, Mrs. Red!”
Posted by: RI Red at July 27, 2025 07:35 PM (ZbDxc)
---------------

Have you tried a shiny object or three as a bribe?
Posted by: blake - semi lurker in marginal standing (tT6L1) at July 27, 2025 07:37 PM (tT6L1)

That would come under “please Mrs. Red.”
I shall endeavor to please.

Posted by: RI Red at July 27, 2025 07:40 PM (ZbDxc)

87 77 Excellent, Schnorflepuppy. Amazing how sneaky Flinchopotomi are, right?
Posted by: blake - semi lurker in marginal standing (tT6L1) at July 27, 2025 07:35 PM (tT6L1)

You're not wrong, sir. I always need the shame of a few low-'n-left rounds to get my head in the game.

Posted by: Schnorflepuppy (OT but harmless) at July 27, 2025 07:40 PM (v23vE)

88 That Who video is NOT in America. Somewhere in Asia is my guess. Turn signals everywhere.

Posted by: GWB at July 27, 2025 07:41 PM (nVSDK)

89 80 days of, “Please, Mrs. Red!”
Posted by: RI Red at July 27, 2025 07:35 PM

You need to get DILIT to help you wear her down. We're expecting all of you.

Posted by: RedMindBlueState at July 27, 2025 07:43 PM (Wnv9h)

90 The owner of my local range is considering a ban on the Sig P320 on the range, unless/until the owner can demonstrate that s/he has gotten the gun repaired or proven it's not affected by the inadvertent discharge problem. Seems a little like overreaction to me, but I don't pay his liability insurance premiums.

Posted by: Schnorflepuppy (OT but harmless) at July 27, 2025 07:43 PM (v23vE)

91 84
I shot Ed L's CC9 last weekend and was very impressed with it. I may be a buyer in the very near future!

My buddy got his at a local "Farm" store and paid the advertised retail. In the big city, prices are crazy ... if you can even find one.

Posted by: YellowBird at July 27, 2025 07:43 PM (Q9/+7)

92 Posted by: YellowBird at July 27, 2025 07:43 PM (Q9/+7)
----
Howdy and welcome!

Posted by: Weasel at July 27, 2025 07:44 PM (tmCNn)

93 Not surprisingly, the NI3 video doesn't go into any details on how to make it. I wonder why.

Posted by: Duncanthrax at July 27, 2025 07:45 PM (0sNs1)

94 His name is George. I love George.
Posted by: nurse ratched at July 27, 2025 07:13 PM

But do you squeeze him?

Posted by: The Abominable Snowman at July 27, 2025 07:46 PM (Wnv9h)

95 Okay, here goes, range report 1: recent edition. The 6.5-06 was out of action, more about that later, which meant I had to get the load worked up for the 30-06 which is wearing a brand new Criterion barrel

I got the load worked up, rifle is ridiculously accurate, which floors me, because, well, archaic round. Rifle, with proper loads, will shoot down around 1/2MOA. Once I got the load worked out, I headed out to get the dope for the 500 meter match, which I did.

The next day, headed to the match and, disaster. Took me a bit to get dialed in but, once I did, I started knocking things down. Perfect score, 5 of 5 @ 500 meters. I'm thinking, "great, this looks promising." Yeah, no. I couldn't believe it, I was missing at 300 meters and didn't figure out what I did wrong until the very end. I was dialing for 400 meters while shooting 300 meters. I just shook my head. Terrible 12 of 20 for the day, Conditions really weren't all that bad, unlike the guy behind the trigger. Ah well, so it goes.

By the way, it is a load of fun to hit a small steel object and send that sucker flying 10 feet up the berm with a 30 cal round.

Posted by: blake - semi lurker in marginal standing (tT6L1) at July 27, 2025 07:46 PM (tT6L1)

96 91
Posted by: YellowBird at July 27, 2025 07:43 PM (Q9/+7)

Thanks for that tip, there's one of them not that far from me and it is a scenic drive!

Posted by: Hrothgar, The Hrothgar at July 27, 2025 07:46 PM (hOUT3)

97 90 The owner of my local range is considering a ban on the Sig P320 on the range, unless/until the owner can demonstrate that s/he has gotten the gun repaired or proven it's not affected by the inadvertent discharge problem. Seems a little like overreaction to me, but I don't pay his liability insurance premiums.
Posted by: Schnorflepuppy (OT but harmless) at July 27, 2025 07:43 PM (v23vE)

Are things really that bad? This is like the Corvair which was randomly targeting school children and turning over on them- the younger the better.

According to Ralph Nader.

Posted by: Aetius451AD at July 27, 2025 07:46 PM (bss/y)

98 Range Report inbound:
With my backup rifle (Ruger Precision Rimfire) and old ammo (Eley Tenex at least two years old and out of the daily lineup), I managed to bring home the Golden .50 Cal cartridge at today’s Aspirin Massacre.
Did you know that a heavy downpour of rain will actually deflect 40 grain .22 bullets downward sufficient to miss far off steel?
Best news - that little brat 10 year old was not present.

Posted by: RI Red at July 27, 2025 07:47 PM (ZbDxc)

99 It has been nearly two weeks since I did any shooting (hot, too hot). The last time was concentrate on what I carry without fail (NAA mini revolver, LCP .380) and my trusty Beretta 950B .25. All this shooting was at about 15 feet, left handed, one hand only because of the cane. Trying to get better without extending the arm (nearly hip shooting) and dry fire practice is helping. I can draw the LCP and double tap a paper plate rapidly at 15 feet. The mini revolver is coming along, draw and cock, launch one with success, repeat (but not quickly). The little Beretta is still the gem, draw and cock hammer, three triple taps muy rapido. Weak hand is becoming the strong hand.

Posted by: bill in arkansas, not gonna comply with nuttin, waiting for the 0300 knock on the door at July 27, 2025 07:47 PM (gm9Sb)

100 My buddy got his at a local "Farm" store and paid the advertised retail. In the big city, prices are crazy ... if you can even find one.
Posted by: YellowBird at July 27, 2025 07:43 PM (Q9/+7)

I saw two CC9's at the gun show I went to a week ago. Both were gone by noon on Saturday.

Posted by: Ed L at July 27, 2025 07:48 PM (BCwQW)

101 You need to get DILIT to help you wear her down. We're expecting all of you.
Posted by: RedMindBlueState at July 27, 2025 07:43 PM (Wnv9h)

DILIT has a prospective Dallas trip this Fall. Maybe …

Posted by: RI Red at July 27, 2025 07:48 PM (ZbDxc)

102 Meanwhile, in Turkish 1911 clone news:

Buds gun shop, among others, finally got the copy of the Marine Expeditionary Unit Special Operations Capable 1911 in stock. Made by Tisas of Turkey, imported by SDS under their Military Armament Corp line, it is a clone of the upgraded 1911s issued to the USMC at the very end of their service life.

It has usable sights, Commander hammer, beavertail grip safety, ambi thumb safety, Pachmayr wrap around grips, and a lanyard loop, topped off with a "US Property" stamp. Importer markings are tiny, the finish is a very flat black wonder-coating, and it comes with two magazines.

If you are interested, search for "MEUSOC" as they are kind of hidden in the menu.

Posted by: Idaho Spudboy at July 27, 2025 07:49 PM (4rENN)

103 Thanks for that tip...

You bet, Hrothgar. Good luck

Posted by: YellowBird at July 27, 2025 07:49 PM (Q9/+7)

104 Somewhere in Asia is my guess.
Posted by: GWB at July 27, 2025 07:41 PM (nVSDK)

I wrote that before seeing the writing on the roads or any clear road signs.

Posted by: GWB at July 27, 2025 07:49 PM (nVSDK)

105 Did you know that a heavy downpour of rain will actually deflect 40 grain .22 bullets downward sufficient to miss far off steel?
Best news - that little brat 10 year old was not present.
Posted by: RI Red at July 27, 2025 07:47 PM (ZbDxc)
-------------

Having been outshot by a 10 year old in the past, I feel your pain.

Posted by: blake - semi lurker in marginal standing (tT6L1) at July 27, 2025 07:50 PM (tT6L1)

106 Thanks, Weasel.

Posted by: YellowBird at July 27, 2025 07:51 PM (Q9/+7)

107 My P320 hasn't shot me yet...

Posted by: lin-duh at July 27, 2025 07:53 PM (nKjbR)

108 107 My P320 hasn't shot me yet...
Posted by: lin-duh at July 27, 2025 07:53 PM (nKjbR)

Only a matter of time...

Posted by: Alec Baldwin at July 27, 2025 07:53 PM (bss/y)

109 Best part of the match was that my Shit was not Wobbly.
Mostly because after two shots, I wedged a rock under the leg of the shooting table.
Fundamentals, ya know.

Posted by: RI Red at July 27, 2025 07:55 PM (ZbDxc)

110 Are things really that bad? This is like the Corvair which was randomly targeting school children and turning over on them- the younger the better.

According to Ralph Nader.
Posted by: Aetius451AD at July 27, 2025 07:46 PM (bss/y)

That's the kind of stuff Ian McCollum is talking about with the P320's PR problem becoming a far bigger problem for SIG than the mechanical/engineering problem. It's not just a product problem anymore. It's a corporate reputation problem now. There's also a couple of You Tube vids from gunsmiths who will not accept P320s for any work, nor provide parts because they see the risk as far too great if any kind of unintended discharge happens (i.e. they think they'll become trial lawyer bait).

Posted by: Ed L at July 27, 2025 07:55 PM (BCwQW)

111 The whole Sig P320 thing is interesting, to say the least.

You see, I have an M18, and it’s close by. Funnily enough, the M9 is doing truck duty - when I am out and about it is in the console. (The G26 is my EDC.). So I’ll be monitoring this closely.

Posted by: Cow Demon at July 27, 2025 07:55 PM (vm8sq)

112 Best news - that little brat 10 year old was not present.
Posted by: RI Red at July 27, 2025 07:47 PM (ZbDxc)
-------------

Having been outshot by a 10 year old in the past, I feel your pain.
Posted by: blake - semi lurker in marginal standing (tT6L1) at July 27, 2025 07:50 PM

Somewhere, Spawn is lurking and laughing.

Posted by: The Abominable Snowman at July 27, 2025 07:55 PM (Wnv9h)

113 Are things really that bad? This is like the Corvair which was randomly targeting school children and turning over on them- the younger the better.

According to Ralph Nader.
Posted by: Aetius451AD
========
There have been reports among police and a dead airman allegedly from the failure. FBI investigated a cop p320 discharge and blamed it on the Sig. Part of the issue is the Sig design orginally was for a hammer fired pistol but that didn't sell nor did the military want that. So, they converted that model (Sig 250) to the striker fired Sig 320 (fwiw, the Sig 365 was a new design and supposedly does not have the problem.). So dunno.

Posted by: whig at July 27, 2025 07:56 PM (ctrM5)

114 Damn it! Off, Looney Tunes sock!

Posted by: RedMindBlueState at July 27, 2025 07:56 PM (Wnv9h)

115 94 His name is George. I love George.
Posted by: nurse ratched at July 27, 2025 07:13 PM

But do you squeeze him?
Posted by: The Abominable Snowman

Yes.

And because .22 is so dirty, I clean George every 1000 rounds.

Posted by: nurse ratched at July 27, 2025 07:56 PM (mT+6a)

116 PDT got an armored golf cart but I don't see a MK93 mount on top.

Posted by: fd at July 27, 2025 07:56 PM (vFG9F)

117 I believe TX DPS uses the P320. Not a peep from them though I have heard of other law enforcement agencies ditching the P320.

Posted by: Cow Demon at July 27, 2025 07:57 PM (vm8sq)

118 Having been outshot by a 10 year old in the past, I feel your pain.
Posted by: blake - semi lurker in marginal standing (tT6L1) at July 27, 2025 07:50 PM

"Then the little bastard shot me in the ass!"

Posted by: The Waco Kid at July 27, 2025 07:57 PM (4rENN)

119 Oh, and one last thing. Supposedly the p320 that discharged killing a female was in a holster at the time and the safety was on. Course, that is from the internet as rumors are flying now.

Posted by: whig at July 27, 2025 07:57 PM (ctrM5)

120 It's a chopper, baby!

Posted by: Rev. Wishbone at July 27, 2025 07:59 PM (ZYql3)

121 And because .22 is so dirty, I clean George every 1000 rounds.
Posted by: nurse ratched at July 27, 2025 07:56 PM

.22lr *is* a dirty girl.

Posted by: RedMindBlueState at July 27, 2025 07:59 PM (Wnv9h)

122 Did you know that a heavy downpour of rain will actually deflect 40 grain .22 bullets downward sufficient to miss far off steel?
Posted by: RI Red at July 27, 2025 07:47 PM (ZbDxc)

Evidently, the largest raindrop can be around 300mg. That translates to about 4 1/2 grains. At ~90 degrees to flight path, somewhere mid-flight. Moving almost 30fps.

Posted by: GWB at July 27, 2025 07:59 PM (nVSDK)

123 Simpler, bring back the 1911 A1... machine it to modern specs and metallurgy.
Posted by: Romeo13 at July 27, 2025 07:26 PM (mP0Kj)

What am I…chopped liver?

Posted by: M9 at July 27, 2025 08:00 PM (vm8sq)

124 Finished with the Ruger Mark IV. I enjoy finishing an intense range visit with my .22. His name is George. I love George.
Posted by: nurse ratched at July 27, 2025 07:13 PM (g+HUj)

Nurse, is George the one that easily disassembles with a simple knob, rather than the profanity laden Ruger of old?

Posted by: RI Red at July 27, 2025 08:00 PM (ZbDxc)

125 Range report 2: way back machine. I signed up for the Backfire accuracy challenge, which takes place about 4 hours from my AO. I was accepted, headed out and the shoot took place the last Friday in June. (video never dropped, which I'm okay with)

The format of the shoot: Shooting order is determined by two 5 shoot groups, from there, targets @ 400, 600, 800 and 1,000 yards. I wound up second in the shooting order, with an average group size of .48.

My first 100 yard group was .6425, second .3225. Amusingly, my first group opened up, because I dropped a round dead center in the bull, with the other 4 clustered at the top of the bull.

That was the high point. I figured I should score quite well in the challenge, based on prior experience, and, instead, couldn't hit the broad side of a barn

I left, extremely disappointed with myself, figuring I'd really screwed up when dialing elevation. Turns out, I actually can blame the equipment. I later found out my scope was not tracking vertically. I sent the scope back to Leupold and, a week after receiving the scope, sent me an email advising it would take up to 6 weeks to repair the scope.

Posted by: blake - semi lurker in marginal standing (tT6L1) at July 27, 2025 08:02 PM (tT6L1)

126 There are an amazing amount of videos on the Sig thing.

Posted by: Aetius451AD at July 27, 2025 08:02 PM (bss/y)

127 Nurse, is George the one that easily disassembles with a simple knob, rather than the profanity laden Ruger of old?
Posted by: RI Red

Yes.

I love to service George at the desk in the guest room looking out on the water and enjoying the salty breeze from the Sound.

Posted by: nurse ratched at July 27, 2025 08:03 PM (mT+6a)

128 Evidently, the largest raindrop can be around 300mg. That translates to about 4 1/2 grains. At ~90 degrees to flight path, somewhere mid-flight. Moving almost 30fps.
Posted by: GWB at July 27, 2025 07:59 PM (nVSDK)

GWB, we were discussing that subject today. All I remember is shooting Junior’s Winchester Super Short Magnum .223 going 4,000 fps. In rain or high humidity, it left circular smoke rings. Tres cool.

Posted by: RI Red at July 27, 2025 08:04 PM (ZbDxc)

129 At least my Sig P226 Tacops - my beloved hand cannon - is untainted.

Posted by: Cow Demon at July 27, 2025 08:04 PM (vm8sq)

130 Apparently weird shit is going on in old England. Mass arrests, seeming concentration style camps, media afraid of being jailed it they cover the happenings.

Developing...

Posted by: toby928 at July 27, 2025 08:05 PM (jc0TO)

131 124 I never had problems with pre MKIV Rugers as far as disassembly and reassembly. We were blessed with a neighbor whose kid was in special education and he would coach me.

Posted by: bill in arkansas, not gonna comply with nuttin, waiting for the 0300 knock on the door at July 27, 2025 08:05 PM (gm9Sb)

132 >>>Yes.

I love to service George at the desk in the guest room looking out on the water and enjoying the salty breeze from the Sound.

Posted by: nurse ratched

>I see. And what are you wearing? Tell us more...

Posted by: Rev. Wishbone at July 27, 2025 08:05 PM (ZYql3)

133 The natural light is perfect and I have a spotlight lamp to help me see the nooks and crannies.

What did you think I meant.

Posted by: nurse ratched at July 27, 2025 08:05 PM (mT+6a)

134 Part of the blame is that the p320 striker is fully cocked when the slide goes all the way to the rear whether through firing or manually (aka jacking the slide). Glock and S&W partially pre-cock the striker with the onboard trigger safety finishing the job--thus, double action trigger which is how Glock got its start in police circles in this country. Seems the police chief in Miami would not approve a semi auto instead of revolvers unless it was considered double action only (Miami had a riot over an alleged pre cocked cop revolver shooting a suspect dead--cop swore he did not cock the revolver back to single action for an ad but instead shot the suspect who was trying to grab his gun.)

Glock was declared DAO by the ATF and voila, cops in Miami got Glocks (Glock story from Massad Ayoob).

Posted by: whig at July 27, 2025 08:06 PM (ctrM5)

135 His name is George. I love George.
Posted by: nurse ratched at July 27, 2025 07:13 PM (g+HUj)

Like this?
https://shorturl.at/BEp2S

Posted by: GWB at July 27, 2025 08:06 PM (nVSDK)

136 Oh, and one last thing. Supposedly the p320 that discharged killing a female was in a holster at the time and the safety was on. Course, that is from the internet as rumors are flying now.
Posted by: whig at July 27, 2025 07:57 PM (ctrM5)

That's what I heard too. I want to hear what the USAF investigation has to say about this. Makes sense that security squadron folks would have their sidearms in Condition 1. Only part of the story I have a question about is if this took place inside, why wasn't the weapon cleared? Back in my day, all weapons had to be cleared at the clearing barrel before going inside, especially at the MP HQ/security squadron HQ buildings.

Posted by: Ed L at July 27, 2025 08:06 PM (BCwQW)

137 Got a nice OWB holster for my Model 10. "Craft Holsters" from Slovakia.

Posted by: Don Black at July 27, 2025 08:06 PM (AOsQT)

138 130 Apparently weird shit is going on in old England. Mass arrests, seeming concentration style camps, media afraid of being jailed it they cover the happenings.

Developing...
Posted by: toby928 at July 27, 2025 08:05 PM (jc0TO)

They are gay and their shit is all retarded.

Plus, the government is just flat out evil.

Posted by: Aetius451AD at July 27, 2025 08:06 PM (bss/y)

139 By the way, I had some suspicions the scope wasn't tracking, but, put it off to the problem being me, not equipment, But, I finally admitted the problem might be with the scope after I adjusted it down 1/2 MOA and the rounds wound up dropping 2 MOA and left 1 MOA.

I wasn't smart enough to remember Weasel had advised me of a tracking test and, I still thought Leupold would get back to me and say something along the lines of, "Umm, we're not seeing an issue."

Posted by: blake - semi lurker in marginal standing (tT6L1) at July 27, 2025 08:08 PM (tT6L1)

140 What am I…chopped liver?
Posted by: M9 at July 27, 2025 08:00 PM (vm8sq)

In the eyes of practically all of the senior NCOs I knew, "yes."

Posted by: Ed L at July 27, 2025 08:08 PM (BCwQW)

141 No range time since duty day last week, weather not an excuse. Going on 6 weeks straight of ridiculously perfect summer days. Lots of swimming and outdoor activities and yard work, and now that water quality situation better there’ll be ocean time when there’s decent small surf.

About done filling the 30 carbine can, then 30-06. With the long days we do hope to do some after-hours shooting at the club, now that the border situation is much improved.

Posted by: rhomboid at July 27, 2025 08:10 PM (ollJN)

142 123 Simpler, bring back the 1911 A1... machine it to modern specs and metallurgy.
Posted by: Romeo13
=======
Why? Single action requires considerable training or a cop can get killed by not swiping off the safety at the time. Most cops are not gun guys and thus it was always the elites among cops that used 1911's if permitted like the Texas Rangers, the Stakeout Squad of NYPD, etc.

FWIW, easier to train trigger discipline on Glocks than operating a single action cocked and locked to casual shooters. I know how to use a 1911 or a BHP (which I did used to carry cocked and locked) but I choose purposefully not to carry one for safety--that is because I haven't put the time into the training necessary and I also need a firearm that can be picked up by my wife and shot if necessary.

The military got around the 1911 training requirement by requiring empty chambers for the regular soldiers not in a wartime situation.

Posted by: whig at July 27, 2025 08:11 PM (ctrM5)

143 Speaking of US military handguns, one has to wonder what happened to all the USAF S&W model 15s. Probably destroyed under a Dem administration.

Posted by: bill in arkansas, not gonna comply with nuttin, waiting for the 0300 knock on the door at July 27, 2025 08:11 PM (gm9Sb)

144 Good evening gun threaders and all the ships at sea!

Posted by: blaster at July 27, 2025 08:11 PM (RoO7G)

145 But... how'd they find the Island of Lost Womenz?
Posted by: Romeo13 at July 27, 2025 07:32 PM (mP0Kj)

It was right there on the map.

Posted by: GWB at July 27, 2025 08:12 PM (nVSDK)

146 Like this?
https://shorturl.at/BEp2S
Posted by: GWB

Zackly!

But seriously. After a focused session, it’s nice to end with my .22 pistol. No recoil. Hits the center of the target on its own. Nice to decompress and enjoy.

Because my shooting is very focused. I put pressure on myself to do well. When I pull a shot, I correct it. If I can be super disciplined in a controlled situation and have groups on the 3-5 inch range, hopefully that muscle memory takes over and I can hit the target under stress without thinking. That’s why you concentrate so hard at the line.

Posted by: nurse ratched at July 27, 2025 08:13 PM (jVgYq)

147 The military got around the 1911 training requirement by requiring empty chambers for the regular soldiers not in a wartime situation.
Posted by: whig at July 27, 2025 08:11 PM (ctrM5)
----------------

Yeah, if I were going to issue pistols as a sidearm, I'd go with a Glock, due to simplicity, I say this as a 1911 guy. But, I've put in the hours needed to be proficient with the platform.

Posted by: blake - semi lurker in marginal standing (tT6L1) at July 27, 2025 08:14 PM (tT6L1)

148 That's what I heard too. I want to hear what the USAF investigation has to say about this. Makes sense that security squadron folks would have their sidearms in Condition 1. Only part of the story I have a question about is if this took place inside, why wasn't the weapon cleared? Back in my day, all weapons had to be cleared at the clearing barrel before going inside, especially at the MP HQ/security squadron HQ buildings.
Posted by: Ed L
========
I think the shooting was at Warren AFB in Wyoming and missile officers carry loaded (or did last time I was in) if down in the missile launch bunker. AFAIK, they haven't identified the victim nor indicated if there was a witness to the AD.

Posted by: whig at July 27, 2025 08:14 PM (ctrM5)

149 Have you tried a shiny object or three as a bribe?
Posted by: blake - semi lurker in marginal standing (tT6L1) at July 27, 2025 07:37 PM (tT6L1)

Find a jeweler down there near Corsicana....

Posted by: GWB at July 27, 2025 08:15 PM (nVSDK)

150 Just another edition in a series of Weasel's down range romances.

Posted by: Rev. Wishbone at July 27, 2025 08:16 PM (ZYql3)

151 “Down range romance,
Low rent rendezvous.”

Posted by: RI Red at July 27, 2025 08:17 PM (qEeiR)

152 151 “Down range romance,
Low rent rendezvous.”
Posted by: RI Red at July 27, 2025 08:17 PM (qEeiR)

Love, under fire.

Posted by: Aetius451AD at July 27, 2025 08:18 PM (bss/y)

153 How in the wide wide world of sports did a handgun go through eons of tests competitions and evaluations with the flaw alleged in the 320???

Astonishing.

Mark 14 torpedo-level scandalous, though obviously far less consequential.

Posted by: rhomboid at July 27, 2025 08:18 PM (ollJN)

154 I would say wait until you hear from the USAF to make your judgement. There will be important details provided.

BTW a lot of people are carrying the M17/18 in Condition One some of them downrange and there hasn’t been an issue. That’s called a clue.

Posted by: Marcus T at July 27, 2025 08:20 PM (nIMb3)

155 Yeah, if I were going to issue pistols as a sidearm, I'd go with a Glock, due to simplicity, I say this as a 1911 guy. But, I've put in the hours needed to be proficient with the platform.
Posted by: blake
=======
Training budgets for small arms fire have always been way less than is needed for excellent proficiency among the rank and file. Then suddenly a war is on and we have to relearn how to train soldiers to shoot all over again.

Cold War attitudes were that artillery, nukes, and aerial bombs and missiles would kill most personnel so why spend a bunch of time training and money people to shoot well. Kind of a callous, they will either learn to shoot in war pretty quickly or someone will shoot them.

When war gaming the whole defense structure on fighting in Europe against the Warsaw Pact, they did not see improving the individual survival rate of their men as useful when massive casualties were expected from non small arms fire. Cold hearted buggers.

Posted by: whig at July 27, 2025 08:20 PM (ctrM5)

156 I can't believe I once thought I was going to just standardize on one pistol cartridge, 9mm. Then I got all involved with 1911s, so I had to have a .45 too. Then I got a used Wilson 9mm that came with a fitted .38 Super barrel.

Tried out .38 Super with it, but it couldn't eject a live round, so I never made it to the range with it. I poked around a bit, and it turned out that to really pull off the 9mm/38 Super dual capability, I'd need to shorten the ejector and do some filing on the breechface.

I could not bear to do that on this nice pistol, and here I was stuck with a case of .38 Super. A sensible person would have sold it. Instead, I found a good deal on a used Dan Wesson PM-38.

It turns out I really like shooting .38 Super. Like 9mm, but with an extra thump. But...

PMC 9mm: ~$260/case
PMC .38 Super: ~$490/case

I have only myself to blame for this predicament.

Posted by: Splunge at July 27, 2025 08:22 PM (7T/7v)

157 second amandment

Posted by: Hokey Pokey at July 27, 2025 08:23 PM (YlWIZ)

158 My favorite sidearm was always the M11-A1.

Posted by: Marcus T at July 27, 2025 08:24 PM (nIMb3)

159 36 Any thought from this corner about the P320 debacle?

I am not sure I can believe that a gun this widely distributed would not have a significantly larger number of accidents associated with it.
Posted by: Pete Bog at July 27, 2025 07:14 PM (qQfd5)

This is an interesting watch (no need to watch the whole thing).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jOMQOtOQoPk

There is definitely a mystery, especially about exactly the point you raise. but there do seem to be some possible vulnerabilities in the design.

Posted by: Splunge at July 27, 2025 08:26 PM (7T/7v)

160 Off to my not so local gun store tomorrow to check on my suppressor paperwork. Last week the ATF system electronic system stalled during submission, but only after I had paid my tax. I got an airy "oh, sometimes that happens, come back in a week if you don't get your notification email." It's been a week.

I might drop off a couple of long guns on consignment. The problem with grabbing "good deals" is you eventually run out of room in the gun safe.

Posted by: Idaho Spudboy at July 27, 2025 08:26 PM (4rENN)

161 When war gaming the whole defense structure on fighting in Europe against the Warsaw Pact, they did not see improving the individual survival rate of their men as useful when massive casualties were expected from non small arms fire. Cold hearted buggers.
Posted by: whig at July 27, 2025 08:20 PM (ctrM5)
----------------

I think the old Soviet Union was even more cold blooded. Canon fodder was their way of war. I suspect they'd have been more than happy to drive their troops across a radioactive wasteland.

Posted by: blake - semi lurker in marginal standing (tT6L1) at July 27, 2025 08:27 PM (tT6L1)

162 153 How in the wide wide world of sports did a handgun go through eons of tests competitions and evaluations with the flaw alleged in the 320???

Astonishing.

Mark 14 torpedo-level scandalous, though obviously far less consequential.

Posted by: rhomboid
-------
It happens--the initial Beretta 92 issued to troops had problems with the locking blocks (really wedge shapped) failing at relatively low round counts. S&W changed the older original longer revolver action in its revolvers to a shorter one in part because a Victory Model M&P revolver fell on the hammer and discharged killing a sailor IIRC.

I am also a bit suspicious of MIM parts but have no idea whether or now that might be one of the issues. Smith had an awful time with those in the 90's as they were suddenly struggling to keep their market share from Glock's challenge.

Posted by: whig at July 27, 2025 08:27 PM (ctrM5)

163 How in the wide wide world of sports did a handgun go through eons of tests competitions and evaluations with the flaw alleged in the 320???

Astonishing.

Mark 14 torpedo-level scandalous, though obviously far less consequential.

Posted by: rhomboid at July 27, 2025 08:18 PM (ollJN)

I suggest viewing Ian McCollum's Forgotten Weapons earlier vid about the P320 (the one before the one in the tonight's thread). He points out that the Army decided to cut the testing regimen short as a cost saving measure (saving well over $100 million according to the Army). That's why Glock sued the Army; their argument was that the Army made its selection on an abbreviated process not called out in the program requirements. The courts didn't see it Glock's way; the courts basically said the Army had the right to manage its procurement effort as it saw fit. It's a long story. I suggest watching that Forgotten Weapons video to get a better understanding of how the Modular Handgun System contract was handled by US Army Ordinance.

Posted by: Ed L at July 27, 2025 08:28 PM (BCwQW)

164 It turns out I really like shooting .38 Super. Like 9mm, but with an extra thump. But...

PMC 9mm: ~$260/case
PMC .38 Super: ~$490/case

I have only myself to blame for this predicament.
Posted by: Splunge

38 Super is about on part with the famed 357 Magnum revolver with its 125 gr JHP as far as self defense. I am purposefully ignoring the race gun loads used in 38 Super with compensators.

I think Colt developed the 38 Super for law enforcement as older cartridges were having problems penetrating car doors etc.

Posted by: whig at July 27, 2025 08:31 PM (ctrM5)

165 Damn it! Off, Looney Tunes sock!
Posted by: RedMindBlueState at July 27, 2025 07:56 PM (Wnv9h)
-------------

And RMBS continues with the self-inflicted wounds....

Posted by: blake - semi lurker in marginal standing (tT6L1) at July 27, 2025 08:31 PM (tT6L1)

166 My parents let me know while I was visiting them they have my late grandpa (Dad's side) shotgun. I did not know that. I went and looked and it's this ancient looking double barrelled shotgun. I looked it up: Eclipse Gun C9. I have no idea if it's functional. My gun enthusiastic friend has offered to see if it is functional. The gun is Belgian and it's WW1 era. Pretty cool find in my parents dining room closet. I'm wondering if they have a Crimean War era sabre laying around in the shed.

Posted by: Puddleglum, chillin' in Amish Country at July 27, 2025 08:32 PM (sAmhv)

167 I think the old Soviet Union was even more cold blooded. Canon fodder was their way of war. I suspect they'd have been more than happy to drive their troops across a radioactive wasteland.
Posted by: blake
======
I think that is still true of most armies on the globe that are not Western.

Posted by: whig at July 27, 2025 08:32 PM (ctrM5)

168 t happens--the initial Beretta 92 issued to troops had problems with the locking blocks (really wedge shapped) failing at relatively low round counts. S&W changed the older original longer revolver action in its revolvers to a shorter one in part because a Victory Model M&P revolver fell on the hammer and discharged killing a sailor IIRC.

Posted by: whig at July 27, 2025 08:27 PM (ctrM5)

The M1911 was bedeviled during its first years of production by its magazines cracking under use. It took nearly two years for the Army and Colt to figure out the specifications (and some new technology to make the sheet steel required) to fix the problem. The magazine release catch also posed problems because JMB never intended for pistol users to remove this part. This also required a redesign from the Army and Colt.

Posted by: Ed L at July 27, 2025 08:34 PM (BCwQW)

169 Not chillin in Amish Country now.

Posted by: Puddleglum, cheer up for the worst is yet to come at July 27, 2025 08:34 PM (sAmhv)

170 I looked it up: Eclipse Gun C9. I have no idea if it's functional. My gun enthusiastic friend has offered to see if it is functional. The gun is Belgian and it's WW1 era. Pretty cool find in my parents dining room closet. I'm wondering if they have a Crimean War era sabre laying around in the shed.
Posted by: Puddleglum

Some of those older firearms have Damascus steel barrels and not safe for modern loads. Some were awkwardly converted to fire longer shells too as somewhere in the 20's, the standard shot gun shell was slightly shorter 2 9/16 std instead of the modern 2 3/4.

Posted by: whig at July 27, 2025 08:35 PM (ctrM5)

171 Well, time to wander.

Thanks again, Weasel!

Posted by: blake - semi lurker in marginal standing (tT6L1) at July 27, 2025 08:36 PM (tT6L1)

172 I think the old Soviet Union was even more cold blooded. Canon fodder was their way of war. I suspect they'd have been more than happy to drive their troops across a radioactive wasteland.
Posted by: blake
======
I think that is still true of most armies on the globe that are not Western.
Posted by: whig at July 27, 2025 08:32 PM (ctrM5)

"One death is a tragedy. A million deaths is a statistic."
Josef Stalin

Posted by: Ed L at July 27, 2025 08:36 PM (BCwQW)

173 The M1911 was bedeviled during its first years of production by its magazines cracking under use. It took nearly two years for the Army and Colt to figure out the specifications (and some new technology to make the sheet steel required) to fix the problem. The magazine release catch also posed problems because JMB never intended for pistol users to remove this part. This also required a redesign from the Army and Colt.
Posted by: Ed L
======
It probably helped that the Army was very small at the time and foreign hostilities were at a lull before 1917. Testing in some ways unless you are using COTS, should always start with a few units first before rolling it out to the rest of the folks.

Posted by: whig at July 27, 2025 08:38 PM (ctrM5)

174 Also in the mix for the P320 question: an FBI report requested by, IIRC, the Michigan State Police, after they had an in-the-holster incident.

I think Ben Stoeger put it up on his Instagram, and some say his version is somewhat less redacted than the one put up by the guy who FOIAd the report. He's been following this closely. He's not a technical gun guy, just a really good shooter and instructor, but he has tons of contacts and loves a good drama. "There has been another Sigcident."

Posted by: Splunge at July 27, 2025 08:38 PM (7T/7v)

175 Whig,

Yea, my friend wants to check all that out. Might wind up being decoration in my sister's place.

Posted by: Puddleglum, cheer up for the worst is yet to come at July 27, 2025 08:39 PM (sAmhv)

176 158 My favorite sidearm was always the M11-A1.
Posted by: Marcus T
========
Eh, in Air Force, I preferred my S&W Model 15 revolvers. Was still in when the transition to Berettas occurred. Did not care for the Beretta as it was too damn big for me to shoot as accurately.

Posted by: whig at July 27, 2025 08:40 PM (ctrM5)

177 Freedom Munitions in Lewiston ID is a good ammo source.
freedommunitions.com

Posted by: Dan at July 27, 2025 08:40 PM (b7MbH)

178 And RMBS continues with the self-inflicted wounds....
Posted by: blake - semi lurker in marginal standing (tT6L1) at July 27, 2025 08:31 PM

Shaming my ancestors this week. Almost as much as using 9mm.

Posted by: RedMindBlueState at July 27, 2025 08:41 PM (Wnv9h)

179 Thanks for the informative replies Ed L and whig.

whig I thought the 92 had a slide-cracking issue as well, or some metallurgy issue, in the civilian version.

Trying to understand how $100M would be needed to evaluate a handgun (and this was just part of the total, I guess).

Also trying to understand how a simple and rigorous safety standard - the gun won't fire by itself, and is drop-safe - wouldn't be covered in oh, say, the first 2% of any evaluation regimen.

But hey compared to Navy shipbuilding, the 320 sounds like the Apollo program, minus #3.

Posted by: rhomboid at July 27, 2025 08:41 PM (U/Byj)

180 164 38 Super is about on part with the famed 357 Magnum revolver with its 125 gr JHP as far as self defense. I am purposefully ignoring the race gun loads used in 38 Super with compensators.
Posted by: whig at July 27, 2025 08:31 PM (ctrM5)

Interesting, and unexpected. I have shot .357 Magnum, and the recoil seems an order of magnitude above .38 Super.

You're referring to .38 Super Comp. It had not occurred to me that this might have something to do with compensators; I'd have guessed "competition." Apparently it has a slightly differently-shaped casing, because .38 Super Auto sometimes misbehaves in the double-stack magazines used in competition.

Before I got it sorted out, I bought a box. Can I shoot it in my PM-38? Apparently that is a question with no answer, or, rather, an answer of "it might work, and it might not. If it does not, you will need a second extractor tuned for that case."

I've been doing enough trashy simulations of gunsmithing in my garage that that actually sounds like a fun answer.

Posted by: Splunge at July 27, 2025 08:43 PM (7T/7v)

181 Looks like no one yet took note that California Morons can now have ammo shipped directly to their door now.

Posted by: Itinerant Alley Butcher at July 27, 2025 08:44 PM (/lPRQ)

182 Speaking of US military handguns, one has to wonder what happened to all the USAF S&W model 15s. Probably destroyed under a Dem administration.
Posted by: bill in arkansas, not gonna comply with nuttin, waiting for the 0300 knock on the door at July 27, 2025 08:11 PM (gm9Sb)

I understand that they were all scrapped because the majority were worn out. But the USAF didn't retire them all at once. The last Model 15's didn't get their retirement papers from the USAF inventory until 2021 when the schoolhouse said goodbye to them for the M18.

Posted by: Ed L at July 27, 2025 08:44 PM (BCwQW)

183 175 Whig,

Yea, my friend wants to check all that out. Might wind up being decoration in my sister's place.
Posted by: Puddleglum
-------
Unfortunately apart from destructive testing, you really cannot 'test' Damascus steel to see if it has flaws. Magnafluxing might indicate external cracks but you need xray testing for soundness.

Personally, I would honor its condition leaving it unshot as those were relatively cheap imported firearms from Belgium at the time. They often were loaded with black powder shotgun shells for the oldest ones as well as shorter shotgun shells that I noted above.

Even experts get nailed by really old guns at times--one guy shooting a Lee Navy 6mm (had a rather unique locking mechanism) was killed when it exploded on him. Guy was an expert in old firearms.

Posted by: whig at July 27, 2025 08:46 PM (ctrM5)

184 181 Looks like no one yet took note that California Morons can now have ammo shipped directly to their door now.
Posted by: Itinerant Alley Butcher at July 27, 2025 08:44 PM (/lPRQ)

I had a friend in CA reach out for the best Internet ammo sources during this brief(?) blast of freedom. It had been so long since he'd been able to order, he had no idea where to start. I told him that Weasel's Gun Thread was always a quality first step.

Posted by: Schnorflepuppy (OT but harmless) at July 27, 2025 08:46 PM (v23vE)

185 >>>How in the wide wide world of sports did a handgun go through eons of tests competitions and evaluations with the flaw alleged in the 320???

Astonishing.

Mark 14 torpedo-level scandalous, though obviously far less consequential.

Posted by: rhomboid at July 27, 2025 08:18 PM (ollJN)

>Not many situations say, "Step aside, let's colonize Mars with a slide rule."

It's humanity's can-do spirit and drive that gets shit done!

Posted by: Rev. Wishbone at July 27, 2025 08:48 PM (ZYql3)

186 I had not planned to link this Ben Stoeger Sig video from today, but then I saw his "Wuhan Institute of Virology" T-shirt and I just had to.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6a1EkMAVUUI

Posted by: Splunge at July 27, 2025 08:49 PM (7T/7v)

187 I think at some point US Army Ordinance will have little choice but to reopen the Modular Handgun System contract again given what's happened. Congress might not give them any choice about the matter.
Posted by: Ed L

"Modular Handgun System"... Tell me you are going to sole source it without telling me you are sole sourcing it...
Anyway, I guess Ruger's new brick is modular.

Posted by: Itinerant Alley Butcher at July 27, 2025 08:50 PM (/lPRQ)

188 "Looks like no one yet took note that California Morons can now have ammo shipped directly to their door now."

Fortunately I stocked up on any factory ammo I thought I'd need forever long before, and then again just prior, to the idiotic ammo law going into effect. And with a C&R + another stupid fingerprint/ID check thinggy, you still could get to-the-door delivery. Problem was mainly vendors not wanting to hassle understanding the law.

Interestingly, my junk email account is stuffed full of messages from vendors saying they'll now sell to CA again. Haven't bothered to check the substance of the 9th panel ruling, or the likelihood of CA seeking another bite via en banc review. Wondering if CA might have to game out whether to risk an en banc "victory" leading to a possible SCOTUS case, where a loss would of course cover the whole country.

This is whig territory.

In any case I haven't shot factory (aside from 54R Soviet-bloc surplus, and shotgun) in over a decade.

Posted by: rhomboid at July 27, 2025 08:50 PM (U/Byj)

189 Calling it a night, Weasel. Thx as always.

Posted by: RI Red at July 27, 2025 08:52 PM (7PD8l)

190 Posted by: RI Red at July 27, 2025 08:52 PM (7PD8l)
----
Adios amigo.

Posted by: Weasel at July 27, 2025 08:54 PM (tmCNn)

191
I think the old Soviet Union was even more cold blooded. Canon fodder was their way of war.

__________

"The enemy has your weapons. Go take them."

Posted by: Hadrian the Seventh at July 27, 2025 08:55 PM (HZi96)

192 Punching out for the night. Thanks for a great Gun Thread, Weasel.

Posted by: RedMindBlueState at July 27, 2025 08:56 PM (Wnv9h)

193 Trying to understand how $100M would be needed to evaluate a handgun (and this was just part of the total, I guess).
Posted by: rhomboid at July 27, 2025 08:41 PM (U/Byj)

The 1991 contract for the Offensive Handgun Weapons System (OHWS), which ultimately produced the H&K Mark 23 for SOCOM (a much smaller and more limited procurement effort than the MHS of the 2010s) was split into two phases:
Phase I: Colt and H&K each got $1.4 million for 30 pistols, suppressors, laser aiming modules, and technical support.
Phase II: After winning Phase I, H&K got $1.39 million for 30 more pistols, suppressors, and laser aimers incorporating government recommended changes from Phase I.
Phase III: -Production contract for the Mark 23.

Posted by: Ed L at July 27, 2025 08:57 PM (BCwQW)

194 The Highway Patrol episode....
I want a car with a missile on the hood.

Posted by: GWB at July 27, 2025 08:58 PM (nVSDK)

195 90 My range has officially banned all P320's. As it is also a police training facility for local PD's, some officers are switching from their P320's.

Posted by: Pooklord at July 27, 2025 09:00 PM (asU3w)

196 Ed L a SEAL friend gifted me some Mk23 mags he had in his bag of stuff when he retired. Sent them to a former RSO colleague in AZ to sell. And I have two other mysterious mags in the gun closet that musta been from him too, but can't remember what they are. Might take them to next duty day, there's a schutzengild guy there usually on my days, he seems to know everything there is to know about firearms. He might be able to figure them out.

Posted by: rhomboid at July 27, 2025 09:00 PM (U/Byj)

197 I tried one of those cheap black recoil pads, I don't care what people think! I can shoot my mosin or my 30-06 6lb Winchester carbine all day without getting bruises on my shoulder.

Posted by: Pooklord at July 27, 2025 09:02 PM (asU3w)

198 26 Prayers delivered -- they can do wonders nowadays with injuries like that, so keep hope!

Posted by: Pooklord at July 27, 2025 09:04 PM (asU3w)

199 "Modular Handgun System"... Tell me you are going to sole source it without telling me you are sole sourcing it...
Anyway, I guess Ruger's new brick is modular.
Posted by: Itinerant Alley Butcher at July 27, 2025 08:50 PM (/lPRQ)

Keep in mind that the Army intended for the M9 to be the "do it all" handgun everyone in DOD was supposed to use, replacing all the .38s and other 9mms out there. That didn't work very well, so the Army figured it'd try again w/ the MHS program to solve the problem of numerous non-standard handguns popping up in SOCOM, CID, NCIS, pilot bailout packs, and more. Simplifying logistics has been an Army holy grail for nearly 80 years, and the Army thought MHS would get them to the Promised Land. To be fair, SIG was the only competitor that actually met the Army's desire for a fire control unit with interchangeable frames. Everyone else already had one or two strikes against them in the MHS competition because of that.

Posted by: Ed L at July 27, 2025 09:06 PM (BCwQW)

200 Re old shotguns, if anyone must shoot one of dubious provenance and wear, I would recommend having a good old timey trained gunsmith look it over before shooting it that is familiar with older firearms and the likely problems with it.

Ask them what safe loads and the chambering would be.

One of the problems is that sometimes via wear and setback, a 2 3/4 shotgun shell will chamber in the older shorter 2 9/16 chamber.

It will raise the pressure significantly if fired because of the constriction at the chamber's throat.

Posted by: whig at July 27, 2025 09:07 PM (ctrM5)

201 Ed L a SEAL friend gifted me some Mk23 mags he had in his bag of stuff when he retired. Sent them to a former RSO colleague in AZ to sell. And I have two other mysterious mags in the gun closet that musta been from him too, but can't remember what they are. Might take them to next duty day, there's a schutzengild guy there usually on my days, he seems to know everything there is to know about firearms. He might be able to figure them out.
Posted by: rhomboid at July 27, 2025 09:00 PM (U/Byj)

Mark 23 mags new from H&K are going for about $85 new. They're not a cheap mag.

Posted by: Ed L at July 27, 2025 09:09 PM (BCwQW)

202 That's what I heard too. I want to hear what the USAF investigation has to say about this. Makes sense that security squadron folks would have their sidearms in Condition 1. Only part of the story I have a question about is if this took place inside, why wasn't the weapon cleared? Back in my day, all weapons had to be cleared at the clearing barrel before going inside, especially at the MP HQ/security squadron HQ buildings.
Posted by: Ed L

Recently worked on an AF building with arms vault. Then current regs required space for clearing barrel immediately outside the vault... Why do it twice, outside and inside?

Posted by: Itinerant Alley Butcher at July 27, 2025 09:10 PM (/lPRQ)

203 Ed L yep I just steer very clear of all the idiotic unconstitutional CA laws, and the mags were free to me, so was sensible just to let my buddy have them. He sold them to a dealer in AZ, dunno now much he got.

Posted by: rhomboid at July 27, 2025 09:12 PM (U/Byj)

204 But Ed L actually that sounds like a "normal" price for H&K mags. They're always eye-popping expensive.

Posted by: rhomboid at July 27, 2025 09:12 PM (U/Byj)

205 Wondering if CA might have to game out whether to risk an en banc "victory" leading to a possible SCOTUS case, where a loss would of course cover the whole country.

This is whig territory.

In any case I haven't shot factory (aside from 54R Soviet-bloc surplus, and shotgun) in over a decade.
Posted by: rhomboid
=======
Closest analog I can think of is a special tax on newspapers that has been tried now and again. Usually struck down because the tax is not neutral in impact and it impacts a fundamental freedom (aka freedom of the press). Sales tax that are generally applicable is permissible--not targeted taxes (and regulations). Also the ridiculous ammo laws in CA are not rooting in history and thus failing under the Bruen std.. CA has to figure if they feel lucky as it is a political safer stance to strike down a law in one state that does not fit the historical analysis of permissible regulations under Bruen. There is no such historical justification.

Posted by: whig at July 27, 2025 09:13 PM (ctrM5)

206 OK, all y'all, 9:13 thank you time.

Thank you!

Appreciate everyone being here tonight and hope to see you here again next Sunday!

Posted by: Weasel at July 27, 2025 09:13 PM (tmCNn)

207 But Ed L actually that sounds like a "normal" price for H&K mags. They're always eye-popping expensive.
Posted by: rhomboid at July 27, 2025 09:12 PM (U/Byj)

If they're imported from Germany, that's probably why. The latest round of tariffs haven't helped.

Posted by: Ed L at July 27, 2025 09:14 PM (BCwQW)

208 How in the wide wide world of sports did a handgun go through eons of tests competitions and evaluations with the flaw alleged in the 320???

Most likely the evaluation units were pre-production and the (alleged) problem has something to do with tolerance stacking in large scale production. Certainly wouldn't be the first time.

Posted by: Oddbob at July 27, 2025 09:15 PM (IsUtW)

209 Thanks for hosting, Weasel!

Posted by: Ed L at July 27, 2025 09:15 PM (BCwQW)

210 Most likely the evaluation units were pre-production and the (alleged) problem has something to do with tolerance stacking in large scale production. Certainly wouldn't be the first time.
Posted by: Oddbob at July 27, 2025 09:15 PM (IsUtW)

Ian McCollum discusses this in the vid he did before the one Weasel posted.

Posted by: Ed L at July 27, 2025 09:16 PM (BCwQW)

211 Rhomboid, if you still have your friend's old holsters or ammo pouches for the Mark 23, I'll be happy to take them off your hands. Those things are serious collectibles now.

Posted by: Ed L at July 27, 2025 09:20 PM (BCwQW)

212 Also Highway Patrol episode....

Long-range pistol shooting! And he braces the longer barreled revolver on the boulder and uses his off hand to support. No wobbly sh*t here!

Of course, Matthews can't hit anything at range. So he gives the revolver back to the deputy who proceeds to provide cover by shooting a HECK of a lot closer to the gunman than Matthews could. Also, bracing on the boulder.

Highway Patrol embraces the Weasel Doctrine!

Posted by: GWB at July 27, 2025 09:21 PM (nVSDK)

213 See also: M1903 heat treatment, M1 7th round stoppage, etc.

Posted by: Oddbob at July 27, 2025 09:22 PM (IsUtW)

214 Posted by: Splunge

=====
Nope, that came later.
Back in the early days of IPSC, people figured out that they could make major easier with 38 Super than with the 45 ACP or its derivatives. The case in the 38 Super was big (newer cases are more efficient) and so they stuffed them full of gassy powder to run compensators on the front end to keep on target. Plus, more ammo capacity.

So pretty quickly 38 Super became a race gun competitor's firearm and they by and large reloaded to the gills for it. It helped that the massive 1911 frame was built for punishment (which also served as a 10mm platform for Colt) among others.

You won't find loads that competitors use on the shelves as they reload themselves to just make major with a bit of a margin for temperatures. Knew a couple of guys that did the run and gun with comped guns (and Patrick Sweeney talks about his experiences in his books).

Felt recoil is always less for a semi auto than revolver as part of the recoil is used for the semi auto action. Shooting a 125-130gr bullet-38 Super and 357 are about equal in ft lbs recoil.

Posted by: whig at July 27, 2025 09:22 PM (ctrM5)

215 Thanks for hosting, Weasel, always love your stuff.

Posted by: Pooklord at July 27, 2025 09:22 PM (asU3w)

216 Jazz hands to Weasel and contributors.

Never want an accidental hurrah to be discharged unsafely.

Posted by: whig at July 27, 2025 09:23 PM (ctrM5)

217 Posted by: Pooklord at July 27, 2025 09:22 PM (asU3w)
-----
Well thank you very much, and welcome to the Gun Thread!

Posted by: Weasel at July 27, 2025 09:24 PM (tmCNn)

218 Thanks, once again, Weasel, for a great week-ending Gun Thread.

See you all next week.

Posted by: GWB at July 27, 2025 09:26 PM (nVSDK)

219 Also, not for nothing, we beat the Food Thread, so there's that.

Posted by: Schnorflepuppy (OT but harmless) at July 27, 2025 09:26 PM (v23vE)

220 Excellent thread, weasel!
Loved the fundamentals of concealment, especially as presented by our friend the chameleon!
Only range practice lately has been .22 rifle taking out varmits. About .750 this summer on woodchucks, racoons, and opposum. 1/2 on skunks, but was trying to just scare them off

Posted by: Pickled at July 27, 2025 09:28 PM (JP0DI)

221 Got to go to a personal outdoor range and do some shooting. Of course Sra blaster showed us how it was done with the lever gun.

Btw my buddy we were shooting with said that his friend who owns an LGS said that lever gun sales started going up with the popularity of Yellowstone. Don't know how true it is but it is a thing that was said.

Posted by: blaster at July 27, 2025 09:29 PM (RoO7G)

222 Posted by: Pickled at July 27, 2025 09:28 PM (JP0DI)
-----
Thanks Pickled! Happy to do it.

Posted by: Weasel at July 27, 2025 09:29 PM (tmCNn)

223 Also, not for nothing, we beat the Food Thread, so there's that.
Posted by: Schnorflepuppy (OT but harmless) at July 27, 2025 09:26 PM

Curses!

Foiled again!!!!

Posted by: Big Penguin at July 27, 2025 09:30 PM (0sNs1)

224 Just because the AF command has suspended the M17 doesn't mean that the gun firing on its ownwas the cause of the airman's death.

The military is highly risk averse.

Posted by: blaster at July 27, 2025 09:31 PM (RoO7G)

225 213 See also: M1903 heat treatment, M1 7th round stoppage, etc.
Posted by: Oddbob
=========
Yep. the 1903 (and lesser known but same heat treatment problem with some 1917 Enfields). The major difference is that those 1917 rifles handles the crappy ammo better with the heat treatment problem primarily resulting in a crack in the receiver ring.

Springfields, in part to get around Mauser patents, had a much worse problem when cartridge separations occurred escaping gas toward the shooter and it hit like a hammer on the receiver. Essentially those receivers can be like glass--hard as hell, slick as glass, and fall apart to a sudden blow. No way to know until it fails.

To make it more fun, heat treatment on the older swept back Springfield bolts are also suspect.

Case hardened steel has it advantages, tough, slick, and durable under the right circumstances but it all depends on proper heat treatment by pyrometer, not eyeball Mk. 1. Nickel steel has its advantages too, easy to heat treat properly, resilient (as no deaths or injuries from 1917 heat treatment failures--simply cracking around the receiver ring). But it is relatively sticky in bolt operation and more $.

Posted by: whig at July 27, 2025 09:32 PM (ctrM5)

226 Whig, thanks for the great background on .38 Super.

Posted by: Splunge at July 27, 2025 09:32 PM (7T/7v)

227
Btw my buddy we were shooting with said that his friend who owns an LGS said that lever gun sales started going up with the popularity of Yellowstone. Don't know how true it is but it is a thing that was said.
Posted by: blaster
======
Would not be surprised. Call of Duty game spurred IRL demand for languishing odd firearms like the 1886/93 Lebel. Reason, it has a large magazine compared with other bolt actions of its era.

50's Cowboy shows and movies led to the Single Action Army coming back with clones of it by competitors. And so it goes.

Posted by: whig at July 27, 2025 09:34 PM (ctrM5)

228 226 Whig, thanks for the great background on .38 Super.
Posted by: Splunge

No problem. One last thing. Older 38 Supers than mebbe the later 70s, almost all Colt 1911 pattern, headspaced on the rim as it was originally a semi rimmed cartridge. That led to inconsistency when shooting for accuracy as rim thickness could easily vary and there wasn't much rim on a Super to start with (aka semi rimmed). Competitors noted that if their gun headspaced on the case mouth like 9mms do, then accuracy and repeatability was excellent. All newer 38 Supers now headspace on the case mouth. Simple barrel change for older 1911's to convert them to the new headspacing method as well.

Posted by: whig at July 27, 2025 09:38 PM (ctrM5)

229 50's Cowboy shows and movies led to the Single Action Army coming back with clones of it by competitors. And so it goes.
Posted by: whig

They say Rick in TWD raised interest in Pythons as well.

A savvy producer could slip in some adverts for a small fee. Like Coke and Taco Bell ads in certain shows.

Posted by: Itinerant Alley Butcher at July 27, 2025 09:40 PM (/lPRQ)

230 Speaking of camouflage, the absolute best job I ever saw...experienced actually...was in Germany at the Graf training area. Early morning, snow on the ground, lots of mud poking thru, a wooded area. I was next to my jeep and heard a diesel fire up. It was big and it was close. Scared the crap outta me. I could NOT see it. I asked my driver if he could. Nope.
Then it moved.
A German Marder IFV was about 30 feet away. The normally green track was painted in small squares of white, brown and light green. The crew had a few tree branches laid on it as well.
incredible job.

Posted by: Diogenes at July 27, 2025 09:40 PM (W/lyH)

231 They say Rick in TWD raised interest in Pythons as well.

A savvy producer could slip in some adverts for a small fee. Like Coke and Taco Bell ads in certain shows.
Posted by: Itinerant Alley Butcher
=========
Now that CZ owns Colt, you might. I rarely see Ruger ads except in gun mags and even rarer to see one of their P model semi autos as such in tv or movies.

Sgt. Schultz and his Krag probably didn't do much though for Krag sales.

Posted by: whig at July 27, 2025 09:43 PM (ctrM5)

232 That strange limbo, interregnum one might say, between Weasel's good-night and the Sunday ONT being posted.

Enough time to stand up, stretch, make a quick pee break, get a refreshment, and re-orient mentally for the battle of wits and witticisms ahead.

Posted by: mindful webworker - occidental orientation at July 27, 2025 09:50 PM (f+yIF)

233 221" Btw my buddy we were shooting with said that his friend who owns an LGS said that lever gun sales started going up with the popularity of Yellowstone. Don't know how true it is but it is a thing that was said."

S&W's Model 29 44 magnum sales spike with the first "Dirty Harry" movie and I believe the movie "Collateral" moved a lot of H&K USP's . . . , so I wouldn't be surprised.

Posted by: Pooklord at July 27, 2025 09:52 PM (asU3w)

234 232 That strange limbo, interregnum one might say, between Weasel's good-night and the Sunday ONT being posted.
======
Eh, I might read what the nightwalkers put out if I can't sleep but not my favorite time to post.

Posted by: whig at July 27, 2025 09:53 PM (ctrM5)

235 and re-orient mentally for the battle of wits and witticisms ahead.
Posted by: mindful webworker - occidental orientation at July 27, 2025 09:50 PM (f+yIF)

And, yet, even there, Weasel Doctrine holds true: fundamentals and no wobbly sh*t! Those are how you win the battles of wits.

Posted by: GWB at July 27, 2025 09:55 PM (nVSDK)

236 S&W's Model 29 44 magnum sales spike with the first "Dirty Harry" movie and I believe the movie "Collateral" moved a lot of H&K USP's . . . , so I wouldn't be surprised.
Posted by: Pooklord
=====
The joke was gun shops ended up selling them like hotcakes but would often get the buyer selling back the now used gun with only a cylinder or two shot through them. Too much recoil for their taste.

The gun shops would then happily sell it to the next person--etc. Lasted until supply finally caught up to demand.

Posted by: whig at July 27, 2025 09:55 PM (ctrM5)

237 And, yet, even there, Weasel Doctrine holds true: fundamentals and no wobbly sh*t! Those are how you win the battles of wits.
Posted by: GWB
=======
I prefer sleep to winning the battle of wits for ONT stardom.

Posted by: whig at July 27, 2025 09:56 PM (ctrM5)

238 Good night folks, have a good, not wobbly, week ahead for y'all.

Posted by: whig at July 27, 2025 09:57 PM (ctrM5)

239 ONT nood

Posted by: GWB at July 27, 2025 10:01 PM (nVSDK)

240 It's all about ball bearings!

Posted by: Bones at July 27, 2025 11:16 PM (24hgG)

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