<b>The Clever and The Good:</b> <i>Screenwriting and Storytelling in Mainstream American Cinema</i> [Lex]

The Clever and The Good: Screenwriting and Storytelling in Mainstream American Cinema [Lex]

The key note speaker at my sister’s 1999 college graduation was Jim Lehrer, then of the PBS News Hour. This was some 26 years ago, but I remember one thing he said vividly. “Just because you are graduating from this prestigious institution [Amherst College] don’t think you are educated,” he counseled.

The year prior, I received a master’s degree from Boston University’s film school where I concentrated in screenwriting. Soon after, I was asked to become an adjunct screenwriting teacher at BU. By 2004, this blossomed into a full-time position. After ten years of teaching (1999-2009), I left academia. I moved into film criticism in 2011 and have been writing reviews since. In 2020, I joined a critics group, and each awards season I am sent hundreds of screeners to vote for ‘best of’ the year in a variety of categories.

For almost three decades, I have not only pursued screenwriting and film review but also published essays and short stories and even have a few novels in the drawer.

The purpose in presenting my bona fides is not to boast but to highlight the many ways which I have been involved in screenwriting, filmmaking, and storytelling (almost always as an outsider). Without this stew of differing viewpoints, I am not sure I would have arrived at the dichotomy of clever and good, and sharing anecdotes from these stages in my journey will illustrate how I arrived at the beliefs I hold today.

“The Clever and The Good” has been a long time in the making, but no idea is too late to offer if it can make an impact. Recalling Jim Leher’s words at my sister’s graduation, I hope anyone who reads this essay will come away with something to consider. Goodness knows the film industry needs a little education.

***

Upon graduating film school in 1998, I set out to write screenplays, get representation and launch a scriptwriting career in mainstream, domestic cinema. Most of this essay will address ‘Hollywood’ filmmaking and writing, as opposed to independent, art, and foreign cinema (and television writing).

There is a special kind of pressure in the film industry about writing sellable ideas. Of all the arts –so quipped Andre Gide—only the movies have the word ‘business’ as a descriptor. No one characterizes poetry or sculpting as a business, but the ‘movie biz’ as a moniker is indelible.

This is not surprising. Movies, unlike the other arts, cost fortunes to produce. This does not mean those funding films are necessarily wiser about what is good, but they have a right to profit.

Imagine you are a studio executive who has greenlit a movie with a $100 million budget. You are going to need close to $300 million in receipts to get back what you invested (after interest on loans, prints, and advertising). In such a scenario, you are assuredly thinking about how the picture will sell. This often impels you to pursue what is clever and not necessarily good.

This kind of thinking trickles down from the C-suites to the agencies to the writers in the trenches generating ideas. One should always write what is true to the heart, but the marketplace and the heart do not always beat in rhythm, and writers will knock themselves silly attempting to come up with ‘clever’ ideas that will set them apart from the pack. In turn, producers are not looking for simple, honest stories that are good but clever ones they think will turn heads.

And currently the industry finds itself in a period where it decidedly wants clever over good. If I had to speculate, I believe it was the writers strike of the late 1980s followed by the flowering of the internet in the 1990s (and then social media, smart phones and apps) that created the conditions for clever to push aside good.
To detail all the reasons how and why screenwriting arrived at its current state would be the subject of another essay, so let it be granted that American, mainstream cinema is in crisis.

This could be interpreted as so much ‘things were better in the past’ rhetoric, but I can prove they were.

Movies have always cost large sums to make and profit from them sought. Clever is as old as the Lumiere Brothers shorts. But clever and good once aligned more snugly. Over the years, I have challenged many people to look at the highest grossing films in the United States in the 1950s and compare those to the highest grossing films of the 2000s or the 2010s (and now the 2020s).

The last year of the 1950s (1959), the top five grossing films were Ben Hur, The Shaggy Dog, Some Like it Hot, Operation Petticoat and Pillow Talk, which won an Oscar for best original screenplay. Fifty years later –2009—the top five were Transformers: Revenge of the Fallen, Avatar, Harry Potter and The Half Blood Prince, Up, and The Twilight Saga: New Moon.

Ben Hur won twelve Academy Awards (in just about every major category) while Transformers won one (sound mixing). The best original screenplay in 2009 was Milk, which was 126th in box office.

Lest you think I am cherry picking take any year in the 1950s (or almost any year between the 1930s and the 1990s) and compare it to one in the 21st century.

The 1950s films, if not original ideas, are book and play adaptations, and some are even modest-budget efforts. The 2000s, 2010s, and 2020s are log-jammed with sequels, prequels and reboots, and almost all of them would be considered big-budget, blockbuster-style productions.

Highly-priced, effects-heavy sequels, prequels, and reboots are admissions producers are leaning firmly into clever, draining all the blood from the stone they can of a once original story. Taking a risk on smaller (and quieter) ideas that are good rarely enters the calculus.

True, greed and cynicism are as old as motion pictures themselves, and productions, from any era, are littered with stories of feuding stars, budgets gone wild, and sex scandals, where the quality of the script seemed to be the last consideration. Why ascribe to the producers of yesteryear lofty motives to craft good and meaningful films? Were they not pursuing the same kind of clever ideas I am branding those in the 21st century as chasing?

These are fair questions, and I think I can answer by saying all this might have been accurate yet still, subconsciously, they knew a good story from a clever one whereas today the industry sees them as one in the same; that is, it was more innate for writers and directors of years past to produce stories that connected with something deeper—to be good.

***

And what is good? What is the difference between good and clever?

It will come as no surprise that a good screenplay or story understands what its dramatic purpose is.

And to demonstrate the difference between good and clever—how you must find the dramatic purpose of a story at the outset of its life—I will offer some personal examples.

The first script of mine (titled Castle Island) that received attention from producers and agents with clout was a true story about the relationship between James Bulger (a gangster), William Bulger (a politician), and John Connolly (an FBI agent). It was a classic Boston tale of crime, politics, family, and corruption. This was long before the film Black Mass, starring Johnny Depp, Benedict Cumberbatch, and Joel Edgerton as the infamous troika, crowded out all others who wanted to tell this story.

Competing projects are always part of the business, and the near shot I had to get something professional going is not the point: the issue was, despite some of the attention I was able to garner with this script, I never really knew what its dramatic purpose was. I was focused on clever. That is what turned heads. That is what made it appealing.

You might tell me this was not merely clever because this story has many themes burrowed into it: twisted loyalty, ambition, and greed.

But themes are empty without dramatic purpose. Love is a theme. Friendship is a theme. But what about them? What is the metaphor? What binds the physical actions we see and the words we hear in a movie (or read in a screenplay) to a subcutaneous, subconscious truth about existence?

Themes without expression are like flightless birds: the wings are there (the clever) but they do not accomplish anything. To soar you need an added element, the first element is what I am arguing. Dramatic purpose. The good.

To further illustrate what I mean, I will contrast my work on Castle Island with a script I wrote some 25 years later. Armed with a full understanding of what is clever and what is good, I had an idea for an indy-style drama (with some humor).

I titled it Whispering Pines, and it concerned an assisted living facility where a new resident, an 80 year old man, comes to reside—somewhat grudgingly. To the world he is completely unremarkable: but he harbors a secret. All his life, he has possessed super powers yet never used them. He is the only one of his kind, and he kept a promise to his dying mother, 70 years previous, not to reveal himself. Naturally, something occurs at the assisted living facility –named Whispering Pines—which compels him to break that promise and use his powers.

This is the kind of idea the screenwriting industry loves. It is vaguely ironic and presents a situation ripe with conflict and mystery (and many a bon mot thrown in). Not to mention it is about a superhero! All of this is the clever.

Years ago, I would not have explored what was beyond clever about this story, but now I pause. If I cannot find anything deeper than the clever idea, I do not proceed. In the case of Whispering Pines, it took me little time to fill out the clever idea with a dramatic purpose.

Whispering Pines is not about an old man who has never used his super powers. It concerns anyone who has regrets about not accomplishing something or failing to use their strength when they had the chance. It is about unfulfilled potential and quiet lives of desperation. But the bright side is you can always do something. There is still time no matter where you are in life.

Teasing out the metaphor, I was able to proceed with the script. It is not a magic bullet. One still has to create compelling characters, a basic three act structure and snappy dialogue, but once I connected the idea with that dramatic purpose the other parts could be made to fit given time. Once I understood what was good about my story I knew I had a tale to tell.

Castle Island was a clever screenplay, but I never plumbed the story to discover why it might connect on a good level. Even after several years of work, I do not recall discussing with anyone, including all those Hollywood pros, what its dramatic purpose was.

***

Why did it take so long to look at stories this way? It is a two-part answer, and the place to begin is with my own education.

To be fair to any screenwriting program, there is a matter of practicality about it. One has to explain the basics to students: format, character building, ‘show don’t tell’ with dialogue, conflict, structure and on; these have to be inculcated. But they are all ancillary to the heart of the matter: what is good and what makes a screenplay good.

It is not as if film schools and other screenwriting educators are unaware of dramatic purpose. Understanding this element of fiction writing goes back to Aristotle (The Poetics).

But I cannot absolve them so easily. I do not recall much emphasis on finding a dramatic purpose for a story during my graduate years. It was there, swirling around with many other ideas, but it was not the headliner.

As both a student and later an instructor, I probably have read just about every influential screenwriting text there is. I have attended numerous academic conferences and writer seminars, and though some discuss it, I also cannot recall any method emphasizing dramatic purpose as the most important element of story telling for the screen.

Many texts and programs are themselves attempting to be clever, coming up with new ways to approach writing a script. Plot points, dialogue tricks, archetypal characters, and so on. Of course, these tips can be useful, but they blunt the primacy of finding the metaphor for a story.

I cannot let myself off the hook, either, for as an educator of more than a decade I did not emphasize dramatic purpose nearly as much as I should have. If were to re-don my professor’s cap, I would approach instructing students in an entirely different way. The good way.

But it was not just my experience with education that kept me from appreciating the clever/good divide.

As mentioned, the business side of screenwriting had been moving toward clever since the mid 1990s, and I stepped squarely into this transition when I graduated film school.

Prior to this age it was possible to earn a screenwriting job based on samples. That is, you did not have to write a spec script that would set the world on fire to get your career going. Some solid samples would earn you trust and a shot. But as the 1990s bled into the 2000s, the way to a producer’s or agent’s heart came not from solid work and showing promise but splashy, high-concept spec sales or placement on the growing number of ‘lists’ of screenwriters to watch. That is, clever earned you attention while good less and less notice.

As a fledging screenwriter, I never attempted to run completely to the clever-fire, feeling plain stories about true crime (Castle Island), historical subjects, and even romantic comedy could be told competently and earn praise.

Even so, I was blinded by the call to be “commercial,” and, during those times, increasingly, commercial meant clever. That is, I was so distracted by trying to feed the marketplace that I forgot to look for the dramatic purpose in my stories, the good.

I never fully embraced the reality that being clever with story ideas was the better path to success. Perhaps I was fortunate in the end. Had I succeeded in selling something clever, maybe I would not have realized what is good.

***

That is the why of it, but when did the awakening about clever and good take place? Not surprisingly, it began when I started to move away from both scriptwriting and teaching. In 2010, I left the university life, and around the same time I came to the conclusion I could not make it as a professional screenwriter. I had earned small money as a writer but not anywhere near what would be considered a day-to-day pro.

Leaving behind me the whirl of academia and the quest for professional status as a writer afforded me the opportunity to see the proverbial forest, and I began to take the first small steps toward the clever/good paradigm.

In this period of transition, I was still active in screenwriter groups and forums, not having fully separated myself from dreams of selling a script. It was in one of these groups that a writer made a comment which was to have a lasting impact on me.

The discussion was Raiders of the Lost Ark. An action-classic, adventure film, few people do not admire it (second at the box office the year of its release, 1981). I forget what the focus of the thread was (probably something clever), but one commenter deviated to point out the dramatic purpose of the movie: he noted Raiders metaphor which is ‘the face of God cannot be looked upon with the eyes of man.’ Or, put more simply: ‘believe in the holy.’

The lead character, Indiana Jones, is a treasure hunter who seeks to reclaim antiquities for museums. But he does not understand some things are too sacred to pursue. Whether he should or should not look upon the face of God does not occur to him. Perhaps he is an Atheist. But by the conclusion of the movie he believes. He knows not to look at the holy, that there are some things greater than earthly ‘fortune and glory.’ The movie is really a cry to embrace religion and believe in the immortal soul.

I recall much push back when the writer elucidated this take on the film’s dramatic purpose. Others in the group, a mix of working professionals and aspirants, did not want to believe Raiders had a dramatic purpose—that it was anything more than a fun romp across the globe. I think, largely, they were embarrassed that as fans of the movie they had not seen this even after many years of studying it.

I also had to admit I had not considered any of this regarding Raiders. I realized the metaphor was subconscious, deft. I included myself as one who had gotten caught up in the clever aspects of the movie and was of the general belief that only serious movies have ‘messages.’

After this revelation, I began to look at all movies with this focus and dropped the pretense that dramatic purpose is only for films at Cannes or Sundance or the art theater. Popular, even silly movies, do not have metaphors—or so the belief goes. To which I respond: let’s look at the movie Caddyshack.

Caddyshack (17th at the box office the year of its release, 1980) is a screwball comedy about a country club and all the quirky personalities that work and play there. 18 year old Danny Noonan is the lead character and a golf caddy at the club. The movie is famed for its irreverence, its outsized players, and the funny situations in which they find themselves. But what about its dramatic purpose? Need we bother with this? Who cares?

I claim the movie has been beloved for so many years because its dramatic purpose is subconsciously relatable to anyone watching. At about the five minute mark of the film, as Danny Noonan leaves his meager and over-crowded house to go caddy at the ritzy golf club, his father wonders, “He isn’t going to be a caddy all his life, is he?”

Cue the music, as Danny bikes from the wrong side of the tracks to the wealthy side of town. This movie is about Danny’s journey and asks whom will he be in life? He is given several role models. Judge Smails (the country club snob and representative of the status quo). Al Czverik (the nouveau riche disruptor) and Ty Webb (the aimless playboy).

Caddyshack is a coming of age tale. Whom will any of us be? Will we choose an archetype or be an individual or something in between?

No one would mistake Caddyshack for a serious movie, a message film, and, over the years, when I point out what is good about Caddyshack, I receive the same resistance the writer did upon demonstrating what Raiders of the Lost Ark is really about.

If you require more recent examples of good over clever, I will offer one. This exercise—and one of the contentions of this essay—is that it has become more difficult to find ‘good’ movies in the contemporary, mainstream cinema. The good movies, by my definition, are more in evidence in independent and foreign film (and some television series). However, good movies at the mainstream level with well thought out dramatic purpose are still produced.

The movies I appreciated most in 2024 are not going to be found on the top of the box office charts (as they were in years past). In my estimation, the highest a good movie climbed on the charts in 2024 was 22nd place, a movie called The Wild Robot. It is an animated film, an adaptation of a children’s book in which an unpacked robot washes up on the shore of a deserted island. Its function is to assist humans, but since none are present it must serve the animals of the island. It has a difficult time adjusting but manages to form bonds with the island denizens and eventually sides with them against civilization.

The wonderful animation and colorful characters are excellent window dressing, but the dramatic purpose is clear and moving: can we overcome our programming? You might impute to this a nature versus nurture argument or even a political message. You can take it whichever way you wish, but the dramatic purpose is strong and connects no matter what prejudices you bring to the viewing.

Try this exercise with any film you admire. It does not have to be a broadly accessible film. It could be foreign or artistic. The point is to discover the dramatic purpose and understand that a metaphor is, earning power aside, the true mark of a good film.

***

As the next few years passed and I became more critic than screenwriter, the idea of clever and good began to solidify.

I started attending more press screenings and received increased amounts of material to review. In 2020, when I joined the Boston Online Film Critics Association (BOFCA) and began voting for best of the year choices, the stream of material for consideration became a flood.

Yes, junk had always been made, devoid of dramatic purpose, but the volume was staggering--and all landing on my doorstep each award season.

I considered it a privilege to be casting votes and receiving so many films, but too much of the material was attempting to be clever. The good, original ideas, if they were there, existed outside of Hollywood. Year after year, my top ten films included very few mainstream, domestic entries.

In the end, it was my experience as a reviewer, not forgetting those many years as a screenwriter and a teacher, that finally impelled me to write this essay. I had seen enough to know clever was dominating the American cinema like no other time before, and this essay, even if in a very small way, was necessary to nudge the movie business back in the direction of good.

***

Can a movie succeed if it is merely clever? Of course. A rollercoaster has no dramatic purpose. It is purely visceral, and many movies work without overthinking it. An example might be a film like The Purge (2013). This is as clever as they come.

The Purge is about a near-future United States where, once a year, for a twelve hour period, any and all crime is permitted. The society is allowed to purge itself of its basest instincts during this allotted time. Many give into it while others simply try to make it through the night alive.

The Purge is not only a clever idea, it is also well constructed, has interesting characters and strong dialogue. It is satisfying from beginning to end. I have put on my good hat many times when thinking about this movie, but I cannot come up with a dramatic purpose.

In spite of this, The Purge was wildly successful, making almost $90 million (on a budget of $3 million), and spawning many sequels. I am sure someone will explain to me its dramatic purpose is XYZ, but even if this case can be made, it is clear to me the premise was the sine qua non of this movie and, dramatic purpose, most likely, was little discussed during its creation.

If you would like a contemporaneous example of clever, take a look at Wicked. It cutely takes the point of view of The Wizard of Oz’s wicked witch of the west. Previously, this character was only known as evil. There was no context or attempt to understand her wicked nature. But in the 2024 movie, we have come to learn she was not always evil but sympathetic, even kind, and made wicked by abuse and manipulation.

Wicked, with a second chapter already planned for 2026, was third at the box office in 2024. It was not made for the likes of me, but even so I did not find it particularly compelling. But I can see clever a mile away. What is good about Wicked? I do not know. Someone will surely opine, but as with The Purge these explanations are after the fact. The genesis of the story is not good; that is, finding a dramatic purpose.

Hundreds, if not thousands, of movies, are created and succeed every year where dramatic purpose is not much considered. And I get this. Sometimes it is more fun to sing along with Wicked or be on the edge of your seat as with The Purge than to dissect the films.

No one should believe that clever movies and good movies are mutually exclusive. When I say a movie is good, it does not mean a clever one is bad. But they do lack depth. They do not go the extra yard. There will always be a place for rollercoasters, but rollercoasters are feats of engineering and artistry—not art.

A good film, no matter budget or genre, is art. It has dramatic purpose and a metaphor, not just a clever plot situation or a different take on a previously despised character. And we need more of the former and less of the latter at the mainstream level of screenwriting and movie-making.

***

That brings us to the present, 2025 as I write. Is what I am urging even possible when the country does not watch anything in common except the Super Bowl? Maybe good was possible in the 1950s when the cinema-going public actually went to the cinema—and everyone was consuming the same cinema.

Maybe clever is a product of the times, when media choices are legion: the multiplex, the art house, broadcast television, cable, On Demand, streaming, and Tik Tok. Can we really expect to get away from clever given the proliferation of so many viewing platforms? Is the spirit of the 1930s-1990s impossible to revive?

This essay is not a desire to return to a romanticized version of the past but to make a better and more incisive future. I realize this cri du coeur might be too pat. You do not say ‘dramatic purpose’ and obviate the need for film school or apprenticeship. But all story tellers, whether at colleges and universities or in the industry ranks, have a stake in this. We can do more than just think about clever situations but providing a dramatic purpose that will impact generation after generation.

I will hazard to say no good script (under my definition) can do poorly financially. If you understand that element of your story you will find a paying audience, but too many are looking for clever cash cows, and that is when you get bombs or flops and clogged in-boxes.

It is difficult to be brave in the Hollywood environment. No writer or speaker wants to be branded contrarian by the establishment. It is easier to go along with the clever game than to be a whistle blower. So perhaps I am the best one to say this—because I have no career at stake if I displease anyone with this broadside.

Naturally, I hope some (many) will take to heart what I have said and see more than clever in their story ideas. All those years ago, Jim Lehrer warned against hubris. You may know a lot and even attain a lot, but that does not mean you are educated. This is my way of paying it forward, helping others come to the conclusions I have today—but much sooner in their careers.

The writing life is many things, but one thing not said enough is that it is a continuing lesson, and sometimes great stories (and essays) take decades to develop. Let us learn and appreciate the difference between clever and good, and, with this knowledge secure, proceed into a more potent future of storytelling.

Posted by: Open Blogger at 07:30 PM

Comments

(Jump to bottom of comments)

1 Good evening good people.

Posted by: Tonypete at April 12, 2025 07:33 PM (cYBz/)

2 "Clever" is why I stopped watching Doctor Who during the David Tennant years. It suddenly seemed obvious to me that the writers were congratulating themselves on how clever they were rather than focusing on telling a story.

Posted by: BeckoningChasm at April 12, 2025 07:37 PM (CHHv1)

3 Happy to be here.

Posted by: NemoMeImpuneLacessit at April 12, 2025 07:37 PM (ZVgZ4)

4 That was like the written version of Long Cat.

Posted by: look whats not at April 12, 2025 07:38 PM (nakGR)

5 I wish I looked that formidable.

Posted by: A Brick Wall at April 12, 2025 07:40 PM (LWg/j)

6 Good evening!

Posted by: Moonbeam at April 12, 2025 07:42 PM (rbKZ6)

7 Yo!

Posted by: MAGA_Ken at April 12, 2025 07:43 PM (Vh9CX)

8 2. I'd say most TV series end up losing the thread because they try to get too clever and go beyond what made the early seasons great. Breaking Bad, Better Call Saul, Cobra Kai, etc. Only The Wire sort of understood the different seasons had separate points to make and that after five of them it was time to stop.

Posted by: Lex at April 12, 2025 07:43 PM (MYYw0)

9 Definitely interest___ observations

I think the ending in raiders isuch like the reason the ark was shrowded from the temple in a dramatic senss

Posted by: Miguel cervantes at April 12, 2025 07:46 PM (liTkY)

10 Castle island would have been an interesting take there is the overworld the legislatufe and the eecurity seevices and the underworld

Posted by: Miguel cervantes at April 12, 2025 07:48 PM (liTkY)

11 I guess it takes some effort to find decent storytelling in movies, not because they're not there, but that sometimes you can't see it through the mass of garbage.

Everyone knows the big blockbusters are garbage, that they're rarely about storytelling. I guess the Avatar movies are an exception. I think they're shitty movies, but they're at least someone's vision. Same with Barbie. I'm not going to watch it, but somebody had a story to tell.

I rewatched Sicario last night. Man, what a great story! I think it might be the best film of the 21st century. Or at least somewhere in the top ten. In a way, it's a simple story, but someone had a vision, and told it from beginning to end.

So maybe the easiest way to separate a story from content is to look and see how many screenwriters are credited. If it's an honest accounting, the more screenwriters, the less of a story it is.

Posted by: BurtTC at April 12, 2025 07:48 PM (09WBQ)

12 Legislature and services

The departed was really infernal affairs transplanted from hong kong (which was a three film arc)

Posted by: Miguel cervantes at April 12, 2025 07:50 PM (liTkY)

13 11. Sicario and its sequel are very good. I'm actually surprised they were ever made because they challenged all the gaslighting of 'there's no problem at the border.'

Posted by: Lex at April 12, 2025 07:50 PM (MYYw0)

14 Thanks for the post, Lex.

I have been very cynical about movies these days.

One pleasantly surprised me: Mud. 2012. Matthew McConnaughy. It takes place in Arkansas, down by the Mississippi. It could easily have been done with the Hollywood mindset that Arkansas folk are stupid, cousin-humping moonshine swillers. But, while the father figures are hard, they are good men. Ray McKinnon was outstanding, raising a son with a penchant for starting fights. It was one of the best films I've seen in a very long time.

Posted by: Pug Mahon at April 12, 2025 07:50 PM (0aYVJ)

15 12. There was simply too much competition for the Bulger story. Our version was never going to be the one. The author of Black Mass was a colleague of mine at BU. We used to fight for the film library's only copy of Shattered Glass. Me for story analysis and him for journalism analysis.

Posted by: Lex at April 12, 2025 07:52 PM (MYYw0)

16 Definitely of course who is the hero and who is the protagonist one might say mendoza is the protagonist bit we see this alien world through kates eyes

Posted by: Miguel cervantes at April 12, 2025 07:52 PM (liTkY)

17 I'd say most TV series end up losing the thread because they try to get too clever and go beyond what made the early seasons great. Breaking Bad, Better Call Saul, Cobra Kai, etc. Only The Wire sort of understood the different seasons had separate points to make and that after five of them it was time to stop.
Posted by: Lex at April 12, 2025 07:43 PM (MYYw0)

I started watching The Blacklist, and I think I'm done, early in Season 2. I believe I know where this is going, and frankly, it shouldn't take ten seasons to get there.

Looks like it's just turned into a "Bad Guy Of the Week" show.

No thanks.

Posted by: BurtTC at April 12, 2025 07:52 PM (09WBQ)

18 13 11. Sicario and its sequel are very good. I'm actually surprised they were ever made because they challenged all the gaslighting of 'there's no problem at the border.'
Posted by: Lex at April 12, 2025 07:50 PM (MYYw0)

Yeah, just watching it again, I find myself thinking that maybe Trump and Homan aren't focusing ENOUGH on the border.

Posted by: BurtTC at April 12, 2025 07:54 PM (nO2eK)

19 14. Is Mud based on a novel? May have read it but don't remember the movie. Generally, I like McConnaughy. True Detective season one is up there with the best in TV history.

Posted by: Lex at April 12, 2025 07:55 PM (MYYw0)

20 Except reddington was really the bad guy who i think they modeled after edwin wilson sho got the opposite treatment (20 years for following orders)

Posted by: Miguel cervantes at April 12, 2025 07:55 PM (liTkY)

21 Thank you from a writer.

Posted by: Eric2 at April 12, 2025 07:55 PM (q7Vou)

22 "Unthinkable " led to a plot line for Sicario.

Posted by: Ben Had at April 12, 2025 07:55 PM (yp8Vj)

23 And I should add that there are still many good films out there. They are just generally foreign, independent or more TV based. "Hollywood" films are almost hopeless at the moment.

Posted by: Lex at April 12, 2025 07:56 PM (MYYw0)

24 Welcome, Lex! Your screenwriting on 'Harley Davidson and the Marleboro Man' was brilliant and it was robbed of an Oscar!

(I kid. Maybe).

Yes, most TV shows should call it quits after about 5-6 seasons. (Looking at NCIS, L&O franchise)

Posted by: Puddleglum at work at April 12, 2025 07:56 PM (rRMBj)

25 15 12. There was simply too much competition for the Bulger story. Our version was never going to be the one. The author of Black Mass was a colleague of mine at BU. We used to fight for the film library's only copy of Shattered Glass. Me for story analysis and him for journalism analysis.
Posted by: Lex at April 12, 2025 07:52 PM (MYYw0)

Is Black Mass actually worth watching? What I know about the story, you'd almost think there's no way it could be true. That a Hollywood version of it would have to have made up the details, that there's no way it could be real.

But it is.

Posted by: BurtTC at April 12, 2025 07:56 PM (nO2eK)

26 I considered a career in academia, but was red-pilled in college and became a trad-wife, lol.

We liked The Wire enough to buy it on DVD. That was good TV.

Posted by: ScaryMary at April 12, 2025 07:57 PM (r+D5c)

27 24. Anything Don Johnson is in is worth a look, whether I wrote it or not. Miami Vice earns him that much credence.

Posted by: Lex at April 12, 2025 07:58 PM (MYYw0)

28 Well depp does a good bulger impression (is it acting)

Cumberbatchs attempt at a boston accent takes you away

Posted by: Miguel cervantes at April 12, 2025 07:58 PM (liTkY)

29 11 I guess it takes some effort to find decent storytelling in movies, not because they're not there, but that sometimes you can't see it through the mass of garbage.

Everyone knows the big blockbusters are garbage, that they're rarely about storytelling. I guess the Avatar movies are an exception. I think they're shitty movies, but they're at least someone's vision. Same with Barbie. I'm not going to watch it, but somebody had a story to tell.

So maybe the easiest way to separate a story from content is to look and see how many screenwriters are credited. If it's an honest accounting, the more screenwriters, the less of a story it is.

Posted by: BurtTC at April 12, 2025 07:48 PM (09WBQ)

Actually, I think Barbie had the good, and not just the clever. It effectively was "what if I woke up one morning and found my perfect life no longer perfect/fulfilling anymore? Am I stuck or can I change it? What/who do I lose/gain?" I may have disagreed with some of the themes and scenes of the movie, but it was both clever and good (and amazingly imagined and acted)...

Posted by: Nova Local at April 12, 2025 07:59 PM (tOcjL)

30 I really like Black Mass and Shattered Glass. Rewatched often.

Posted by: gp's Movie Laffs at April 12, 2025 07:59 PM (/RzMC)

31 Saw "A Minecraft Movie" in a sea of freckled sugar-amped bratlings. They were roiling like maggots on a carcass. Got the full Rocky Horror Picture experience when CHICKEN JOCKEY appeared.

Now I am not the target demographic for this flick, which seems more experiential rather than plot-driven, but it was fun to see the kids get excited when familiar characters came on screen.

First time I've seen a pre-show screen card telling the audience to behave and not engage in disruptive behavior.

Posted by: All Hail Eris, She-Wolf of the 'Ettes 'Ettes at April 12, 2025 08:00 PM (kpS4V)

32 19 14. Is Mud based on a novel? May have read it but don't remember the movie. Generally, I like McConnaughy. True Detective season one is up there with the best in TV history.
Posted by: Lex

For some reason, after watching it, it snuck up on me on how great an actor Woody Harrelson is. He just blends into whatever role he's in and your forget it's Woody Harrelson. Woody f'ing Harrelson. Go figure.

Posted by: Puddleglum at work at April 12, 2025 08:00 PM (rRMBj)

33 Actually they dialed down the elements in black mass like the fact that john durham did the big investigation, yes that guy, the role of mueller and weld off screen

Posted by: Miguel cervantes at April 12, 2025 08:00 PM (liTkY)

34 25. I rewatched Black Mass recently. It's serviceable. Not great but Depp does a good job. The best thing is some of those gangsters are still around the Boston area. The opening scene is where Bulger chides John Motorano for eating peanuts, and the real life Kevin Weeks said even Whitey would never talk that way to JM because JM would have killed him over the demeaning way he spoke to him in the movie.

Posted by: Lex at April 12, 2025 08:00 PM (MYYw0)

35 @8 - I noticed the same thing with Star Trek TNG and The X-Files. It became less about ":Let's tell this story" and more "Let's do things with these characters." Which is not necessarily a bad thing, but they tended to diminish the show's basic premise.

ST-TNG: "Let's make Troi and Worf a couple!" "Sure, but what's the story?" "Oh, who cares, some spatial anomalies are disrupting the equipment."

XF: "Let's do a whole show were people keep offering Mulder vanilla ice cream, and he hates vanilla ice cream!"

Etc.

Posted by: BeckoningChasm at April 12, 2025 08:00 PM (CHHv1)

36 Sicario 1 and 2 are great. Hoping for a 3.

Posted by: gp's Movie Laffs at April 12, 2025 08:00 PM (/RzMC)

37 "He is given several role models. Judge Smails (the country club snob and representative of the status quo). Al Czverik (the nouveau riche disruptor) and Ty Webb (the aimless playboy)."

I believe you may have omitted a certain salt of the Earth, Blue Collar hero whose resume includes his own strain of grass and a stint working for the Dalai Lama himself.

Posted by: Carl Spackler's Mom at April 12, 2025 08:01 PM (pIfcn)

38 The premise in purge doesnt really make sense how would a night of mayhem really solve anything

Posted by: Miguel cervantes at April 12, 2025 08:01 PM (liTkY)

39 32. Yes, most people think of Woody Harrelson as a goof, but he's great in TD and White Men Can't Jump and as the doomed guy in No Country for Old Men (and other roles I can't think of at the moment.)

Posted by: Lex at April 12, 2025 08:02 PM (MYYw0)

40 20 Except reddington was really the bad guy who i think they modeled after edwin wilson sho got the opposite treatment (20 years for following orders)
Posted by: Miguel cervantes at April 12, 2025 07:55 PM (liTkY)

Clearly he is, but the agency is well aware of it. They've made their "deal with the devil" because he's actually helping them catch and/or stop those other guys.

I just assume everyone, including our main character, gets corrupted by him eventually.

Posted by: BurtTC at April 12, 2025 08:02 PM (4nh7V)

41 "Strange Codes" (1975) (23 mins you'll never get back) Is it an avant-garde exploration of consciousness, neuroscience and computation, or is it just a schizophrenic with a movie camera and a Canadian government grant? You decide!
youtube.com/watch?v=taFWbD3l21Q

"There Will Come Soft Rains" (1984) (mercifully short 10 mins) Nightmarish Soviet cartoon. They say it's adapted from Bradbury, but doesn't everybody say that?
youtube.com/watch?v=4oxP3TyuQx0

"Who Killed Captain Alex?" (2010) (69 mins) 'The first Ugandan action film.' Sadly, the only copies I can find have a seldom-funny "VJ" voiceover. This movie was made by a guy with A Vision, Ambition, and No Money, which I gotta admire. Catchphrase: "Bomb anything big and important!" Worth the watch.
youtube.com/watch?v=KEoGrbKAyKE

Posted by: gp's Movie Laffs at April 12, 2025 08:03 PM (/RzMC)

42 Actually, I think Barbie had the good, and not just the clever. It effectively was "what if I woke up one morning and found my perfect life no longer perfect/fulfilling anymore? Am I stuck or can I change it? What/who do I lose/gain?" I may have disagreed with some of the themes and scenes of the movie, but it was both clever and good (and amazingly imagined and acted)...
Posted by: Nova Local at April 12, 2025 07:59 PM (tOcjL)

Yeah, that's what I thought. Not for me, but apparently a well thought out story.

Posted by: BurtTC at April 12, 2025 08:03 PM (4nh7V)

43 37. Haha. I once wrote a sequel to CaddyShack for fun. I even queried Michael O'Keefe the actor who played Danny. He was very nice in replying to me saying Warner Brothers didn't have interest (why, when every other studio was putting out a 30 years later sequel?). In my version Carl became a cannibas millionaire and bought Bushwood and gave it to Danny.

Posted by: Lex at April 12, 2025 08:03 PM (MYYw0)

44 38. A good point. There's some radio chatter at the end of the Purge where some guy is saying both his sons were killed during The Purge. Like he would wait until next year to take revenge. Great logic point but not enough to derail the project.

Posted by: Lex at April 12, 2025 08:05 PM (MYYw0)

45 JJ Sefton needs to be here.

Posted by: Ben Had at April 12, 2025 08:05 PM (yp8Vj)

46 The movie Goon was a good story.

Posted by: Archer at April 12, 2025 08:05 PM (IDphi)

47 In many ways reality and the black list seem to overtop each other also blindspot which is more of a cult series

Yes is remington lizs father does it really matter who is he really and why did become this uber fixer

Posted by: Miguel cervantes at April 12, 2025 08:05 PM (liTkY)

48 45. JJ frequently references Arnold Stang from the Cid Cesar days. Stang was my grandfather's cousin. I always thought he would find that interesting.

Posted by: Lex at April 12, 2025 08:06 PM (MYYw0)

49 Welcome
Only part through the essay, I keep seeing it told a movie needs to make $300M to get $100M but don't see where all that can go, just know it does

Posted by: Skip at April 12, 2025 08:07 PM (ypFCm)

50 Calling penguin

Posted by: Clark at April 12, 2025 08:07 PM (DXPhz)

51 46. The hockey movie? A cousin of mine worked on that. Different side of the family than the Arnold Stang strain.

Posted by: Lex at April 12, 2025 08:07 PM (MYYw0)

52
I like The Flamingo Kid.

Posted by: Soothsayer, son of Soothsayer, son of Soothsayer at April 12, 2025 08:08 PM (HjVWI)

53 49. That is always what they have said about a movie. After interest on loans and cost of prints and advertising after the nuts and bolts production is done, it is said a movie needs to make more than twice the production budget to profit. I don't know if that is exactly true, but it's generally accepted.

Posted by: Lex at April 12, 2025 08:08 PM (MYYw0)

54 I'm watching HNC and Michael Meyers is doing political commercials for the Liberal Party. Why does he still live in America? Fracking leftist.

Posted by: Archer at April 12, 2025 08:09 PM (IDphi)

55 “Bona Fides”. You became a full professor teaching screenwriting without ever having been a successful screenwriter.

That’s what’s wrong with higher education right there.

Posted by: Aarradin at April 12, 2025 08:09 PM (YMVKT)

56 Nice essay, but I'm not unsure whether the 'clever vs good' thing really holds up or if it is too much in the eye of the beholder. For example, your mention of 'The Wild Robot'. I haven't seen it, but dollars to donuts the writers would claim that the underlying theme is 'late stage capitalism bad'. Same with 'The Purge'. Not that our take is wrong - I would just like some more objective guidance on what is good vs clever. One guy that really caught my attention in the last few years is S. Craig Zahler with 'Dragged Across Concrete', 'Brawl in Cell Block 99', and 'Bone Tomahawk'. Clever or good? Not sure, but they are certainly engaging stories.

Posted by: Isheen at April 12, 2025 08:09 PM (syz9S)

57 Yes, Goon the hockey movie.

Posted by: Archer at April 12, 2025 08:10 PM (IDphi)

58 Bone Tomahawk thumbs up. Love the dialog.

Posted by: gp's Movie Laffs at April 12, 2025 08:11 PM (/RzMC)

59 Was the Flamingo Kid Matt Dillon? I remember when he was hotter than Matt Damon.

"Mud" has been recommended here before. I need to check that out. True Detective Season 1 with McConaughey and Harrelson was great TV.

Posted by: ScaryMary at April 12, 2025 08:12 PM (r+D5c)

60 I started watching The Blacklist, and I think I'm done, early in Season 2. I believe I know where this is going, and frankly, it shouldn't take ten seasons to get there.

Looks like it's just turned into a "Bad Guy Of the Week" show.

No thanks.
Posted by: BurtTC at April 12, 2025 07:52 PM (09WBQ)

Having watched much of the later seasons, my response is: No, you don't know where it's going, but yes, you probably should go ahead and stop watching.

Posted by: Dr. T at April 12, 2025 08:12 PM (lHPJf)

61 The subtext is the purge is supposed to be the result of a tea party like hallucination the new founders

Curiously mnuchin future treasury secretary under wrote it

Posted by: Miguel cervantes at April 12, 2025 08:12 PM (liTkY)

62 55. I've heard this comment a lot. Most professional screenwriters couldn't teach their way out of a paper bag. Students at the college level don't need to know how to cast a lead or work with an agent. They need to be educated on the basics and many screenwriters can't do that. Ted Williams was a lousy coach. Bill Belichick never played a down of pro football. Pedagogy at the university level and selling scripts don't really go hand in hand. My grad school instructor was a brilliant screenwriter/novelist but a terrible teacher.

Posted by: Lex at April 12, 2025 08:13 PM (MYYw0)

63 53 49. That is always what they have said about a movie. After interest on loans and cost of prints and advertising after the nuts and bolts production is done, it is said a movie needs to make more than twice the production budget to profit. I don't know if that is exactly true, but it's generally accepted.
Posted by: Lex at April 12, 2025 08:08 PM (MYYw0)

Part of the box office obviously goes to the theaters, which is one reason why streaming services were so attractive a concept (although apparently less so in practice).

What astounds me is when they say marketing almost doubles the cost. You start to realize how and why television and print stay in business. They have to get paid a lot to market the garbage that Hollowood puts out, because nobody would say nice things about it otherwise.

Posted by: BurtTC at April 12, 2025 08:13 PM (09WBQ)

64 Taylor sheridan wrote sicario as a kind of modern western with very noir undertones

Posted by: Miguel cervantes at April 12, 2025 08:14 PM (liTkY)

65 58. Yes, I did enjoy Bone Tomahawk. It worked! The director of it did a few others which are decent. He's a good genre director.

Posted by: Lex at April 12, 2025 08:14 PM (MYYw0)

66 I'd say people wanted to be entertained, laugh some, feel good, in 1959. I know I did and I was 9 years old and a pretty smart kid.

Posted by: Eromero at April 12, 2025 08:14 PM (LHPAg)

67 I watched Birdman for the first time last night. Seemed to me to be self criticism of all the acting arts and the importance assigned to it.

That said I enjoyed it and the acting was really good. I think Ed Norton is a better actor than he is given credit for.

Posted by: Sebastian Melmoth at April 12, 2025 08:14 PM (VofaG)

68 The Purge is a movie version of Star Trek Return of the Archons. IMO

Posted by: Archer at April 12, 2025 08:15 PM (IDphi)

69 51, 46: 'Goon' surprised me as I wasn't expecting to like it as much as I did. Had lots of heart.

Posted by: Puddleglum at work at April 12, 2025 08:15 PM (rRMBj)

70 Midwest Side Story. A Broadway musical has been made based upon the YA novel The Outsiders about gang conflict in 1960's Tulsa OK and they're making it into a movie.

Posted by: Anonosaurus Wrecks, Soldier of the Persistence at April 12, 2025 08:15 PM (L/fGl)

71 "I noticed the same thing with Star Trek TNG and The X-Files. It became less about ":Let's tell this story" and more "Let's do things with these characters."

Characters I didn't like to start with.

Posted by: fd at April 12, 2025 08:16 PM (vFG9F)

72 63 I don't remember all the breakdown of how a movie makes money. I thought theaters made most of their money on concessions. Fatal Subtraction is a classic 800 page non fiction book about how studios do their accounting and claim losses even on hits. It was about how Paramount stole the idea of Coming to America from Art Buchwald and his lawsuit against them. Never accept net points as any part of the deal.

Posted by: Lex at April 12, 2025 08:17 PM (MYYw0)

73 My best watching right now is "The Chosen". Thought provoking while being entertaining

Posted by: Ben Had at April 12, 2025 08:17 PM (yp8Vj)

74 Don wilsons border trilogy was supposedly in development at fox (orange man broke him) but he was already acidly cynical about the drug war

Posted by: Miguel cervantes at April 12, 2025 08:17 PM (liTkY)

75 The last network TV I enjoyed was "Person of Interest." It was an interesting concept, and Jim Cavaziel is not hard on the eyes for this 'ette.. It occurs that most of the shows and movies I enjoyed are older.

Posted by: ScaryMary at April 12, 2025 08:18 PM (r+D5c)

76 Having watched much of the later seasons, my response is: No, you don't know where it's going, but yes, you probably should go ahead and stop watching.
Posted by: Dr. T at April 12, 2025 08:12 PM (lHPJf)

Heh. By "know where it's going" I think I mean the bigger picture, not the dirty details.

As in, he corrupts everybody he comes in contact with. And I presume, never gets his comeuppance.

I may continue though, so don't tell me. If I'm wrong, so be it.

Posted by: BurtTC at April 12, 2025 08:18 PM (09WBQ)

77 Yes, I did enjoy Bone Tomahawk. It worked! The director of it did a few others which are decent. He's a good genre director.
Posted by: Lex at April 12, 2025 08:14 PM (MYY

The Missing > Bone Tomahawk

The director of Bone Tomahawk also did Brawl in Cell Block 99 which was his best IMO.

Posted by: Sebastian Melmoth at April 12, 2025 08:18 PM (VofaG)

78 Honestly, I can say that Soul fell into the trap of not knowing what is was about at the end. I took a full letter grade off my view of the movie (dropping it from A to B) b/c finding fulfillment in one's soul was the dramatic purpose. It was what the climax of the 2 main characters was about. But then, Pixar decides to punt that Joe found his soul's purpose by helping 22 see the goodness of life (and not just him getting to perform), and thus is fulfilled and ready to head on. Except then they cop out and let him go back to Earth, somehow cheating death and the dang title of the movie. It was such a cop out on a movie that just couldn't live up to the message it was offering, but needed the cheap and easy, "happy" out...

Posted by: Nova Local at April 12, 2025 08:19 PM (tOcjL)

79 Dragged Across Concrete directed by Zahler is excellent. One of the best crime films of the past 10 years. Got blackballed I believe because Mel Gibson is the lead.

Posted by: Lex at April 12, 2025 08:19 PM (MYYw0)

80 Thank you for taking the time to write the essay. I very much enjoyed it.

Posted by: Mr. Barky at April 12, 2025 08:20 PM (Fp6BA)

81 PC Gamer@pcgamer
Amazon's Tomb Raider series reportedly 'dead' after tens of millions in development costs resulted in no script

-
Probably just as well. It would've ended in tears.

Posted by: Anonosaurus Wrecks, Soldier of the Persistence at April 12, 2025 08:20 PM (L/fGl)

82 Fandango is a movie that fits the bill for deeper meaning and entertainment.

Posted by: Minuteman at April 12, 2025 08:20 PM (FMmp3)

83 80. Thanks Mr. Barky. I think I went a little long in it, but that's still after cutting some things out. I had a lot to say after 25 years thinking it over.

Posted by: Lex at April 12, 2025 08:21 PM (MYYw0)

84 Sometimes all you need to make a movie is a giant frozen praying mantis.

Posted by: fd at April 12, 2025 08:21 PM (vFG9F)

85 "Fatal Subtraction" added to my list, thanks!
https://tinyurl.com/wbkhawhu

Posted by: gp's Movie Laffs at April 12, 2025 08:21 PM (/RzMC)

86 80 Concur!

Posted by: gp's Movie Laffs at April 12, 2025 08:21 PM (/RzMC)

87 64 Taylor sheridan wrote sicario as a kind of modern western with very noir undertones
Posted by: Miguel cervantes

I loved 'Wind River' and He was involved with the wonderful TV show 'Longmire'. Still, I've mostly skipped 'Yellowstone'. I can't get past the clips I've watched on YT. The daughter of Costner's 'John Dutton' annoys the hell out of me and some of the lines I've heard are afternoon soap opera category. Meh.

Posted by: Puddleglum at work at April 12, 2025 08:22 PM (rRMBj)

88 Fandango is a movie that fits the bill for deeper meaning and entertainment.
Posted by: Minuteman

Good movie very entertaining.

Posted by: Archer at April 12, 2025 08:22 PM (IDphi)

89 Yes the chosen is remarkably well written really giving a jesus as a human being with the divine destiny ans the interplay with the disciples

Posted by: Miguel cervantes at April 12, 2025 08:22 PM (liTkY)

90 72 63 I don't remember all the breakdown of how a movie makes money. I thought theaters made most of their money on concessions. Fatal Subtraction is a classic 800 page non fiction book about how studios do their accounting and claim losses even on hits. It was about how Paramount stole the idea of Coming to America from Art Buchwald and his lawsuit against them. Never accept net points as any part of the deal.
Posted by: Lex at April 12, 2025 08:17 PM (MYYw0)

Yeah, I don't remember exactly how much, but theaters certainly get some part of the box office. I think it's said they make most of their money on concessions because their box office take is offset by whatever other costs associated with paying off distributers and other things.

Posted by: BurtTC at April 12, 2025 08:22 PM (09WBQ)

91 Mud" has been recommended here before. I need to check that out. True Detective Season 1 with McConaughey and Harrelson was great TV.
Posted by: ScaryMary at April 12, 2025 08:12 PM (r+D5c)

Mud is one of my favorites. I didn't realize that MConaughey made so many movies I really enjoy. Actually watching interstellar again right now . The Lincoln Lawyer is another of his I like. The latest one of his that was good was The Gentlemen .

Posted by: Sebastian Melmoth at April 12, 2025 08:23 PM (VofaG)

92 Yes a modern twist on dallas dialed up to eleventy

Posted by: Miguel cervantes at April 12, 2025 08:23 PM (liTkY)

93 87. I watched three episodes of Yellowstone. There were too many murders to get me to believe this was any kind of actual reflection of modern ranching life. And I agree on the daughter. They made her too unstable to be believed. But Wind River was a good movie. Even Hitchcock had flops.

Posted by: Lex at April 12, 2025 08:23 PM (MYYw0)

94 And it succumbed to the woke premisr

Posted by: Miguel cervantes at April 12, 2025 08:24 PM (liTkY)

95 48 45. JJ frequently references Arnold Stang from the Cid Cesar days. Stang was my grandfather's cousin. I always thought he would find that interesting.
Posted by: Lex at April 12, 2025 08:06 PM (MYYw0)
Lex, Urkel was patterned after your grandfather's cousin, or stolen from Arnold Stand.

Posted by: Eromero at April 12, 2025 08:24 PM (LHPAg)

96 Dedication in book "Fatal Subtraction:"

'To our fellow writers:
First to beget the idea, last to get profits.'

Heh.

Posted by: gp's Movie Laffs at April 12, 2025 08:25 PM (/RzMC)

97 I liked "Yellowstone " for the simple reason that I know and have ridden with a lot of the characters.

Posted by: Ben Had at April 12, 2025 08:25 PM (yp8Vj)

98 Stang was also the inspiration for Screech in Saved by the Bell

Posted by: Lex at April 12, 2025 08:26 PM (MYYw0)

99 Most words I have ever read in my life.

Posted by: Lemmiwinks at April 12, 2025 08:26 PM (wgbpW)

100 But for the first few seasons until the cliff hanger ala who shot jr was good

Posted by: Miguel cervantes at April 12, 2025 08:26 PM (liTkY)

101 I'm a typical American . I like meat and potatoes. I like my wine on the sweet side and I like my movies to have happy endings . Life is complex enough without 'enjoying' more complexity.

Posted by: Sebastian Melmoth at April 12, 2025 08:26 PM (VofaG)

102 99 Don't tell that to Cervantes. He might make you read Don Quixote

Posted by: Lex at April 12, 2025 08:26 PM (MYYw0)

103 Think there's a rule of thumb (William Goldman? Harlan Ellison? I'm too lazy to dig out the reference right now) that if there's more than two names on the script, and usually if there's more than one, everybody from the original writer to the janitor has probably tinkered with it.

I'm more inclined to take a chance on a movie these if it's from a novel or short story I liked, or if the screenwriter has also written books (I liked Dennis Lehane's The Drop a lot, ditto the Richard Russo/Robert Benton modern noir Twilight).

Posted by: Just Some Guy at April 12, 2025 08:26 PM (q3u5l)

104 . . . . about how studios do their accounting and claim losses even on hits. It was about how Paramount stole the idea of Coming to America from Art Buchwald and his lawsuit against them. Never accept net points as any part of the deal.
Posted by: Lex

#1 son worked for a time as an accountant at Sony Pictures. He didn't stay long - "Dad, they're all whores. They just wear better clothes. Don't tell Mom I work here. Tell her I push dope to junior high kids - It's much more honorable."

Posted by: Tonypete at April 12, 2025 08:27 PM (cYBz/)

105
You want good writing?

I give you: The Drop.

Posted by: Soothsayer, son of Soothsayer, son of Soothsayer at April 12, 2025 08:27 PM (HjVWI)

106 Both soft rains and captain alex are on youtube

Posted by: Miguel cervantes at April 12, 2025 08:28 PM (liTkY)

107 102 99 Don't tell that to Cervantes. He might make you read Don Quixote
Posted by: Lex at April 12, 2025 08:26 PM (MYYw0)

Now there's a great story. One that has never, and never will be translated well onto the big screen.

Posted by: BurtTC at April 12, 2025 08:28 PM (09WBQ)

108 Posted by: Sebastian Melmoth at April 12, 2025 08:23 PM (VofaG)

Yes, The Gentlemen was entertaining. McConaughey usually is a good actor. I just ignore his constant insinuations of running for TX governor. Matt needs to stay in his lane.

Posted by: ScaryMary at April 12, 2025 08:28 PM (r+D5c)

109 I hope this doesn't come across as me trying to sound superior, but I thought the "Raiders" storyline was obvious to everyone. It puzzles me that anyone would even try to argue against it.

Posted by: Dr. T at April 12, 2025 08:28 PM (lHPJf)

110 103. A Hollywood friend whom I've lost touch with was writer #12 of 20 on the Independence Day sequel. I think they probably did bring in a janitor or two for that.

Posted by: Lex at April 12, 2025 08:29 PM (MYYw0)

111 106 Yes, that's why I provided links.

Posted by: gp's Movie Laffs at April 12, 2025 08:29 PM (/RzMC)

112 Excellent essay. Very good read.

Posted by: RS at April 12, 2025 08:30 PM (rk5vz)

113 109. Many people in that thread, when the writer explained the subtext pushed back on that notion. Over the years, I've noticed its more obvious, but that is probably the difference of watching it with younger eyes and then again with more experience. The Sulla character actually speaks the dramatic purpose of the movie at some point. He says "Indy, maybe the arc shouldn't be disturbed."

Posted by: Lex at April 12, 2025 08:30 PM (MYYw0)

114 The story behind raiders as related by charles ricca happening in late 19th and turn of the 20th century with an international crew

Posted by: Miguel cervantes at April 12, 2025 08:31 PM (liTkY)

115 Think there's a rule of thumb (William Goldman? Harlan Ellison? I'm too lazy to dig out the reference right now) that if there's more than two names on the script, and usually if there's more than one, everybody from the original writer to the janitor has probably tinkered with it.

I'm more inclined to take a chance on a movie these if it's from a novel or short story I liked, or if the screenwriter has also written books (I liked Dennis Lehane's The Drop a lot, ditto the Richard Russo/Robert Benton modern noir Twilight).
Posted by: Just Some Guy at April 12, 2025 08:26 PM (q3u5l)

I rewatched MASH recently. Saw one of those feature stories on the making of, and they said Ring Lardner, who wrote the screenplay, hated how Altman basically took his script and tossed it in the trash.

Then when Oscar time came around, Lardner got his statue nonetheless. I assume he stopped complaining.

Posted by: BurtTC at April 12, 2025 08:32 PM (uZ2BU)

116 Extremely poor screenwriting? I give you Kingdom of Heaven.

Painfully awful. Also , Ridley Scott is an overrated hack of a director.

Posted by: Archer at April 12, 2025 08:32 PM (IDphi)

117 Yes ridley lost the plot in the 90s

Thats was william monahans script who also wrote body of lies and the deoarted

Posted by: Miguel cervantes at April 12, 2025 08:34 PM (liTkY)

118 After Napoleon I agree

Posted by: Skip at April 12, 2025 08:34 PM (ypFCm)

119 116 there are tons of examples of awful screenwriting at the most elite level. Any Star Wars movie was written by a college sophomore. But at that level the writing is consideration number 9 of 10, so it no longer surprises me.

Posted by: Lex at April 12, 2025 08:34 PM (MYYw0)

120 The premise in purge doesnt really make sense how would a night of mayhem really solve anything
Posted by: Miguel cervantes

Seen bits of "purge' or sequels. Either way it doesn't matter. I thought the premise to be retarded cranked up to 11.
What? Everyone just pretends nothing happened when they call 'game over'?

Nope, that is when it's unlimited open season on the pols who let happen in the first place.

Posted by: Itinerant Alley Butcher at April 12, 2025 08:35 PM (/lPRQ)

121 Archer, what about "Exodus Gods and Kings" ?

Posted by: Ben Had at April 12, 2025 08:35 PM (yp8Vj)

122 Yes indy as we discover from last crusade was rebelling against his father who had the reverence for the grail

Posted by: Miguel cervantes at April 12, 2025 08:35 PM (liTkY)

123 Omg that was next level cringe

Posted by: Miguel cervantes at April 12, 2025 08:37 PM (liTkY)

124 Im surprised it didnt earn a fatwa

Posted by: Miguel cervantes at April 12, 2025 08:37 PM (liTkY)

125 14. Is Mud based on a novel? May have read it but don't remember the movie. Generally, I like McConnaughy. True Detective season one is up there with the best in TV history.
Posted by: Lex at April 12, 2025 07:55 PM (MYYw0)

I think it was based on a novel. But, as I said, it was an excellent movie.

Posted by: Pug Mahon at April 12, 2025 08:37 PM (0aYVJ)

126 The premise in purge doesnt really make sense how would a night of mayhem really solve anything
Posted by: Miguel cervantes

Seen bits of "purge' or sequels. Either way it doesn't matter. I thought the premise to be retarded cranked up to 11.
What? Everyone just pretends nothing happened when they call 'game over'?

Nope, that is when it's unlimited open season on the pols who let happen in the first place.
Posted by: Itinerant Alley Butcher at April 12, 2025 08:35 PM (/lPRQ)

I think the Rick and Morty purge episode explained everything

Posted by: Sebastian Melmoth at April 12, 2025 08:38 PM (VofaG)

127 125. Sorry, I was thinking of Mudbound, which was based on a novel and had a deep south setting

Posted by: Lex at April 12, 2025 08:39 PM (MYYw0)

128 You saw that episode too.

Posted by: Miguel cervantes at April 12, 2025 08:39 PM (liTkY)

129 Ben Had, awful too.

Posted by: Archer at April 12, 2025 08:39 PM (IDphi)

130 Because moses has a significant position in islamic tradition

Posted by: Miguel cervantes at April 12, 2025 08:40 PM (liTkY)

131 Aw, gee, guys I would have been here sooner but the spinning loading indicator wouldn't quit. Whew. Hi.

Posted by: Braenyard - some Absent Friends are more equal than others _ at April 12, 2025 08:40 PM (WjhjO)

132
"Good for Nothing" is a fine movie. One of the best I've seen recently.

Posted by: Frankly at April 12, 2025 08:40 PM (+TAzZ)

133 I think the Rick and Morty purge episode explained everything
Posted by: Sebastian Melmoth

I missed that one.

Posted by: Itinerant Alley Butcher at April 12, 2025 08:40 PM (/lPRQ)

134 Gods and Kings comes off slightly less cringe dubbed in spanish but still mst3k worthy

Posted by: Miguel cervantes at April 12, 2025 08:41 PM (liTkY)

135 Burt at 115 --

Shame about Lardner's experience on MASH -- I've never seen a copy of his script, and I kinda liked the movie.

For some reason I'm reminded of a line in Ira Levin's Deathtrap. Sidney (played by Michael Caine in the movie), describing a script, says something like this: "You know how good this is? Even a gifted director couldn't hurt it."

Posted by: Just Some Guy at April 12, 2025 08:42 PM (q3u5l)

136 Painfully awful. Also , Ridley Scott is an overrated hack of a director.

Well, maybe, but I loved 'Bladerunner' and 'Alien'. Especially 'Bladerunner'. One of my top 5 movies.

Posted by: Puddleglum at work at April 12, 2025 08:42 PM (rRMBj)

137 Look whose purging now episode 9, second season

Posted by: Miguel cervantes at April 12, 2025 08:43 PM (liTkY)

138 Gladiator! How could you possibly hate Gladiator?

Posted by: Ben Had at April 12, 2025 08:44 PM (yp8Vj)

139 I think the Rick and Morty purge episode explained everything
Posted by: Sebastian Melmoth at April 12, 2025 08:38 PM (VofaG)

What I like about Rick and Morty is how much I can enjoy the show without getting about 90% of the cultural references.

I'd almost describe Rick and Morty as Kurt Metzger in animated teevee show form, but you'd have to know who Kurt Metzger is to get the reference.

Posted by: BurtTC at April 12, 2025 08:44 PM (uZ2BU)

140 Anyone who doesn't click this link spends the night in the box...

https://tinyurl.com/c298x2rr

Posted by: davidt at April 12, 2025 08:44 PM (i0F8b)

141 Ridley Scott did GI Jane. He should have been ostracized ever since.

Posted by: Sebastian Melmoth at April 12, 2025 08:45 PM (VofaG)

142 David peoples wrote blade runner as he would do soldier and unforgiven

Posted by: Miguel cervantes at April 12, 2025 08:45 PM (liTkY)

143 OK, Bladerunner gets a pass.

Posted by: Archer at April 12, 2025 08:45 PM (IDphi)

144 136 Agreed. Scott is no hack. Maybe not top shelf but a solid director. Earlier work better. The Duellists. Alien. Black Hawk Down. I was never into Gladiator though and Gladiator II is the definition of trying to be clever...and it was bad.

Posted by: Lex at April 12, 2025 08:46 PM (MYYw0)

145 Yes gladiator was great almost inspite of ridley

Posted by: Miguel cervantes at April 12, 2025 08:46 PM (liTkY)

146 I'd almost describe Rick and Morty as Kurt Metzger in animated teevee show form, but you'd have to know who Kurt Metzger is to get the reference.
Posted by: BurtTC at April 12, 2025 08:44 PM (uZ2BU)
---

Is he the conspiracy/cryptohistory dude?

Posted by: All Hail Eris, She-Wolf of the 'Ettes 'Ettes at April 12, 2025 08:47 PM (kpS4V)

147 Burt at 115 --

Shame about Lardner's experience on MASH -- I've never seen a copy of his script, and I kinda liked the movie.

For some reason I'm reminded of a line in Ira Levin's Deathtrap. Sidney (played by Michael Caine in the movie), describing a script, says something like this: "You know how good this is? Even a gifted director couldn't hurt it."
Posted by: Just Some Guy at April 12, 2025 08:42 PM (q3u5l)

I just read the Wikipedia version of it, and they downplay the idea that Altman didn't use much of the script. They seem to say, since most of the scenes in the movie were taken from the book, it wasn't altered that much.

However... they rather offhandedly suggest a lot of the dialogue was changed.

For pete's sake, man, if the dialogue was changed... THAT'S BASICALLY WHAT A SCRIPT IS!!!

Posted by: BurtTC at April 12, 2025 08:47 PM (uZ2BU)

148 Yes gladiator 2 undermined the end of the first one

Posted by: Miguel cervantes at April 12, 2025 08:47 PM (liTkY)

149 142. Peoples is solid. Not many like him in the game right now.

Posted by: Lex at April 12, 2025 08:48 PM (MYYw0)

150 And justin roland the showrunner is a very creepy guy

Posted by: Miguel cervantes at April 12, 2025 08:49 PM (liTkY)

151 Gladiator was like Sound of Music-- One and done.

Posted by: Ben Had at April 12, 2025 08:49 PM (yp8Vj)

152 One mogul said: You want to send a message use the telegram.

Posted by: Braenyard - some Absent Friends are more equal than others _ at April 12, 2025 08:49 PM (WjhjO)

153 I'd almost describe Rick and Morty as Kurt Metzger in animated teevee show form, but you'd have to know who Kurt Metzger is to get the reference.
Posted by: BurtTC at April 12, 2025 08:44 PM (uZ2BU)
---

Is he the conspiracy/cryptohistory dude?
Posted by: All Hail Eris, She-Wolf of the 'Ettes 'Ettes at April 12, 2025 08:47 PM (kpS4V)

That. And so much more.

Kurt goes on everyone's podcast, and it's always... ALWAYS a mismatch. Kurt has a stream of consciousness mind, and he's hilarious, but the hosts always try to cut him off and keep him "on topic."

Which is understandable, it's your podcast, but good grief, I'd rather just listen to Kurt talk uninterrupted for about 3 hours.

Posted by: BurtTC at April 12, 2025 08:50 PM (uZ2BU)

154 Didn't Justin Roland get #METOO'd out of Hollywood?

Posted by: Puddleglum at work at April 12, 2025 08:50 PM (rRMBj)

155 The writers of rick and morty ended up in the marvel films because multiverse

Posted by: Miguel cervantes at April 12, 2025 08:50 PM (liTkY)

156 I don't believe Ridley Scott is a bad director by any means, but he has produced a few stinkers, and Kingdom of Heaven is definitely one of them.

Posted by: Dr. T at April 12, 2025 08:51 PM (lHPJf)

157 A movie that doesn't get much attention is "Bad Day at Black Rock". Interesting story, but the cast, wow. Academy Award winners, both at filming and in the future included Tracy, Jagger, Brennan, Borgnine and Marvin. Like the movie due to my love of small desert towns.

Posted by: bill in arkansas, not gonna comply with nuttin, waiting for the 0300 knock on the door at April 12, 2025 08:51 PM (gm9Sb)

158 I'd take Ridley over Roland Emmerich any day

Posted by: Ben Had at April 12, 2025 08:52 PM (yp8Vj)

159 Probably hslf of adult swim should be arrested but wont

Posted by: Miguel cervantes at April 12, 2025 08:52 PM (liTkY)

160 Didn't Justin Roland get #METOO'd out of Hollywood?
Posted by: Puddleglum at work at April 12, 2025 08:50 PM (rRMBj)

I know Dan Harmon did, but it didn't stick. He came back from it.

Posted by: BurtTC at April 12, 2025 08:53 PM (uZ2BU)

161 ***But clever and good once aligned more snugly.
---

Intellect and culture aligned.

Posted by: Braenyard - some Absent Friends are more equal than others _ at April 12, 2025 08:53 PM (WjhjO)

162 They should have made a prequel of Gladiator since the opening of the movie was the best part to me. Unfortunately the two main character actors in the opening scene are dead or fat.

Posted by: Sebastian Melmoth at April 12, 2025 08:53 PM (VofaG)

163 Yes even irwin allen eventually closed up shop

Posted by: Miguel cervantes at April 12, 2025 08:53 PM (liTkY)

164 157 There are many out there like it. I think Robert Ryan was in that movie, one of the great unheralded actors of the golden age studio system

Posted by: Lex at April 12, 2025 08:54 PM (MYYw0)

165 2012 was beyond parody and yet he kept going

Posted by: Miguel cervantes at April 12, 2025 08:55 PM (liTkY)

166 I love Rick and Morty but I believe it was season
5 ? that was just too perverted for me to enjoy. They pulled back in the subsequent seasons.

Posted by: Sebastian Melmoth at April 12, 2025 08:55 PM (VofaG)

167 162 the prequel to Gladiator is called Mediations by Marcus Aurelius.

Posted by: Lex at April 12, 2025 08:56 PM (MYYw0)

168 Richarc harris david henmings (who was always creepy)oliver reed

Posted by: Miguel cervantes at April 12, 2025 08:57 PM (liTkY)

169 Yes gladiator 2 undermined the end of the first one
Posted by: Miguel cervantes at April 12, 2025 08:47 PM (liTkY)

I prefer to live in the timeline where Gladiator 2 never existed.

Posted by: Dr. T at April 12, 2025 08:57 PM (lHPJf)

170 Like battlestar 1980 it never happened

Posted by: Miguel cervantes at April 12, 2025 08:57 PM (liTkY)

171 ***In turn, producers are not looking for simple, honest stories that are good but clever ones they think will turn heads.
---

When Mel Gibson and Clint Eastwood are gone we will only have Tinto Bras to rely on.

Posted by: Braenyard - some Absent Friends are more equal than others _ at April 12, 2025 08:58 PM (WjhjO)

172 Mel is making the sequel to Passion of Christ.

Posted by: Sebastian Melmoth at April 12, 2025 08:59 PM (VofaG)

173 I really want to see Gibson's Resurrection movie

Posted by: Ben Had at April 12, 2025 08:59 PM (yp8Vj)

174 I liked Up, though that was the saddest opening in cartoon history, sadder than Bambi.

Posted by: Grump928(C) at April 12, 2025 09:00 PM (jc0TO)

175 I really want to see Gibson's Resurrection movie
Posted by: Ben Had at April 12, 2025 08:59 PM (yp8Vj)

Passion Of the Christ 2: The Passioning... this time it's personal.

Posted by: BurtTC at April 12, 2025 09:01 PM (uZ2BU)

176 157 A movie that doesn't get much attention is "Bad Day at Black Rock". Interesting story, but the cast, wow. Academy Award winners, both at filming and in the future included Tracy, Jagger, Brennan, Borgnine and Marvin. Like the movie due to my love of small desert towns.
Posted by: bill in arkansas, not gonna comply with nuttin, waiting for the 0300 knock on the door at April 12, 2025 08:51 PM (gm9Sb)
----

I watch it every time it's on TCM. The tension starts the moment Tracy's character steps off the train and never lets up.

Posted by: All Hail Eris, She-Wolf of the 'Ettes 'Ettes at April 12, 2025 09:01 PM (kpS4V)

177 I put Happy Feet in the clay pigeon thrower and blew it away.

Posted by: Ben Had at April 12, 2025 09:02 PM (yp8Vj)

178 Ridley Scott did GI Jane. He should have been ostracized ever since.
Posted by: Sebastian Melmoth

So he's responsible for Will Smith slapping Chris Rock.

Posted by: Anonosaurus Wrecks, Soldier of the Persistence at April 12, 2025 09:02 PM (L/fGl)

179 174 I only watch one or two animations per year but they can be surprisingly better than live action. Last year's "Robot Dreams" was on my top ten list.

Posted by: Lex at April 12, 2025 09:02 PM (MYYw0)

180 liked Up, though that was the saddest opening in cartoon history, sadder than Bambi.
Posted by: Grump928(C) at April 12, 2025 09:00 PM (jc0TO)

I’m one of the few that didn’t like it at all except for the dog. And you’re right about the opening . It was a bad sad to me if that makes sense.

My favorite animated movie is Bolt,

Posted by: Sebastian Melmoth at April 12, 2025 09:03 PM (VofaG)

181 I put Happy Feet in the clay pigeon thrower and blew it away.
Posted by: Ben Had

Happy Feet this!

https://shorturl.at/Wk9Z9

Posted by: Anonosaurus Wrecks, Soldier of the Persistence at April 12, 2025 09:04 PM (L/fGl)

182 "Beach Blanket Bingo"
"The Ghost in the Invisible Bikini"

Clever? Good? Or are we no longer worthy of such masterpieces?

Posted by: Idaho Spudboy at April 12, 2025 09:04 PM (SnC8S)

183 My favorite animated movie is Bolt,
Posted by: Sebastian Melmoth at April 12, 2025 09:03 PM

Bolt was good. I liked Rango, and the first of the Despicable Me franchise.

Posted by: Grump928(C) at April 12, 2025 09:04 PM (jc0TO)

184 I know we've talked about the book with the backstory that the UN gives Alaska to to the Jews. I think The Yiddish Policemen's Other Ball. I think that would be a timely movie.

Posted by: Eromero at April 12, 2025 09:06 PM (LHPAg)

185 first of the Despicable Me franchise.
Posted by: Grump928(C) at April 12, 2025 09:04 PM (jc0TO)

Hah.

It’s So Fluffy ! is my text notification. I like when they make animations have an adult message in ir.

Posted by: Sebastian Melmoth at April 12, 2025 09:06 PM (VofaG)

186 Shrek!

Posted by: Ben Had at April 12, 2025 09:07 PM (yp8Vj)

187 178 Ridley Scott did GI Jane. He should have been ostracized ever since.
Posted by: Sebastian Melmoth

So he's responsible for Will Smith slapping Chris Rock.
Posted by: Anonosaurus Wrecks

Only if Ridley Scott was banging Will Smith's wife too. It's possible. She's a freak.

Posted by: Puddleglum at work at April 12, 2025 09:08 PM (rRMBj)

188 *Trailer voice*

In a world, where Romans rule... one man, came to clean up the temple... They had him crucified.

*Fade in, early Spring morning, Roman soldiers on the road*

"Hey... how... you can't be here, we killed you! AAAAAHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!"

*Trailer voice*

They thought they had ended his reign forever. They were WRONG!

Posted by: BurtTC at April 12, 2025 09:08 PM (uZ2BU)

189 182. I did write somewhere in my essay that clever movies can be a lot of fun. So any of the surfing movies or Tango and Cash or whatever can be stupid but fun to watch. There was a famous film essay called "The Good Bad Movie." It pretty much explains guilty pleasures.

Posted by: Lex at April 12, 2025 09:08 PM (MYYw0)

190 Couple of things to do, so outta here.

Thanks for the thread, Lex. Nice essay.

Have a good one, gang.

Posted by: Just Some Guy at April 12, 2025 09:09 PM (q3u5l)

191 189: and just like that, were back to discussing 'Harley Davidson and The Marlboro Man'.

Posted by: Puddleglum at work at April 12, 2025 09:11 PM (rRMBj)

192 Posted by: Lex at April 12, 2025 09:08 PM (MYYw0)

I have a lot of guilty pleasure movies. But I don’t feel like their bad like conventional wisdom says they are.

3000 Miles to Graceland
Feeling Minnesota

are two I just recently watched again.

Posted by: Sebastian Melmoth at April 12, 2025 09:12 PM (VofaG)

193 They’re = their

Posted by: Sebastian Melmoth at April 12, 2025 09:13 PM (VofaG)

194 Scariest movie: North by Northwest with James Mason and Martin Landau as the villains.

Posted by: Braenyard - some Absent Friends are more equal than others _ at April 12, 2025 09:13 PM (WjhjO)

195 I liked Up, though that was the saddest opening in cartoon history, sadder than Bambi.
Posted by: Grump928(C) at April 12, 2025 09:00 PM (jc0TO)

I know a lot of people don't like Up, especially because of the opening, but I really did. I thought it was a really sweet take on making the most of life, even when your dreams don't pan out.

Posted by: Dr. T at April 12, 2025 09:13 PM (lHPJf)

196 3000 Miles to Graceland
Feeling Minnesota

are two I just recently watched again.
Posted by: Sebastian Melmoth at April 12, 2025 09:12 PM (VofaG)

Damn near any movie with Kurt Russell is going to be slightly trashy, but fun.

Posted by: BurtTC at April 12, 2025 09:14 PM (uZ2BU)

197 Scariest movie: North by Northwest with James Mason and Martin Landau as the villains.

Posted by: Braenyard - some Absent Friends are more equal than others _ at April 12, 2025 09:13 PM (WjhjO)

Scary?

Really??

I can understand having a slight case of vertigo, standing on George Washinton's nose, but I don't get scary.

Posted by: BurtTC at April 12, 2025 09:15 PM (uZ2BU)

198 191 189: and just like that, were back to discussing 'Harley Davidson and The Marlboro Man'.
Posted by: Puddleglum
---

'Michael' with John Travolta

Posted by: Braenyard - some Absent Friends are more equal than others _ at April 12, 2025 09:15 PM (WjhjO)

199 192 Guilty pleasures...I give you The Secret of My Success

Posted by: Lex at April 12, 2025 09:15 PM (MYYw0)

200 If Up was made today, the doctor would tell her that she can't have children because she has a penis.

Posted by: Grump928(C) at April 12, 2025 09:16 PM (jc0TO)

201 Kurt Russell was in 'Soldier' which was very good if somewhat overlooked.

Posted by: Puddleglum at work at April 12, 2025 09:16 PM (rRMBj)

202 Arnold Stang was the voice of Top Cat.

Posted by: Bertram Cabot, Jr. at April 12, 2025 09:17 PM (63Dwl)

203 Were the new soldiers in .. well .. Soldier replicants?

Posted by: Grump928(C) at April 12, 2025 09:17 PM (jc0TO)

204 182 "Beach Blanket Bingo"
"The Ghost in the Invisible Bikini"

Clever? Good? Or are we no longer worthy of such masterpieces?

Posted by: Idaho Spudboy at April 12, 2025 09:04 PM (SnC8S)

Back to the Beach.

Posted by: davidt at April 12, 2025 09:17 PM (i0F8b)

205 Nexus 5s?

Posted by: Grump928(C) at April 12, 2025 09:17 PM (jc0TO)

206 Isn't Soldier in the Bladerunner universe?

Posted by: Grump928(C) at April 12, 2025 09:18 PM (jc0TO)

207 I tried to watch the Bob Dylan movie, A Complete Unknown last night and only got half way before I turned it off.

Posted by: Sebastian Melmoth at April 12, 2025 09:19 PM (VofaG)

208 201 I did enjoy Soldier. Wasn't his chief rival the guy who played Bruce Lee in that biopic?

Posted by: Lex at April 12, 2025 09:19 PM (MYYw0)

209 Were the new soldiers in .. well .. Soldier replicants?
Posted by: Grump928(C) at April 12, 2025 09:17 PM (jc0TO)

No just genetically engineered and raised as soldiers from birth.

Posted by: Sebastian Melmoth at April 12, 2025 09:21 PM (VofaG)

210 TLDR

Hey, where the white women at ?

Posted by: jsg at April 12, 2025 09:23 PM (tQcSE)

211 209 I always thought Soldier was a futuristic version of Shane. A man programmed to be a killer tries to be something else but realizes he can't be.

Posted by: Lex at April 12, 2025 09:24 PM (MYYw0)

212 From all the notoriety around here I finally watched Prometheus

Posted by: Ben Had at April 12, 2025 09:25 PM (yp8Vj)

213 From all the notoriety around here I finally watched Prometheus
Posted by: Ben Had at April 12, 2025 09:25 PM (yp8Vj)

I didn’t think it was as bad as the snark but it wasn’t great.

Posted by: Sebastian Melmoth at April 12, 2025 09:26 PM (VofaG)

214 I don't think that people necessarily need to know the deep themes of a story and how to serve them. Sometimes everything just lines up unconsciously. Some people are just lucky to the point of becoming good.

But... if you do figure out what you're really talking about, then you can play around with various motifs that help root the story, or you can paint some atmosphere into the background that points to that thing. Suitable backstory. Suitable jokes. Details that draw people deeper.

But the trick is to do it lightly enough that it doesn't stick out and annoy people.

OTOH, if 490 people are making changes to the script, and if everyone is cast against type for Reasons, and then the time period is changed just because... obviously all those careful clues are going to get wasted.

Posted by: Suburbanbanshee at April 12, 2025 09:32 PM (p2GXS)

215 214 well said. that's why if you watch Raiders you will see that from the opening moments it's about looking or not at the face of God. When Belloq captures the idol from Indy he holds it up and the natives look away and then he looks straight at it and laughs. He's doomed from that moment but he doesn't know it.

Posted by: Lex at April 12, 2025 09:34 PM (MYYw0)

216 What did you think, Ben Had?

My main beef is Weyland gathered the supposedly best and brightest and they all did very, very stoopid things.

Posted by: All Hail Eris, She-Wolf of the 'Ettes 'Ettes at April 12, 2025 09:35 PM (kpS4V)

217 Saw the Oscar's Best Picture winner "Anora" last night.

Basically it's like someone said

"Hey, let's remake "Pretty Woman" only with a sad ending and lots of nekkidness and trashy people."

And so they did.

"Anora" isn't as porny as it's been made out to be. Ackshewallee, a lot less nudity than the average Skinamax soft porn flick.

It's okay. Well shot, well acted, well directed. Well scripted. Nice body on main actress.

"Anora" is okay if you've got nothing better to do. Not a "must see". But, no reason to stay away if that storyline appeals to you.

Posted by: naturalfake at April 12, 2025 09:35 PM (iJfKG)

218 206 Isn't Soldier in the Bladerunner universe?
Posted by: Grump928(C)

That's what I've read out on the interwebs. Not sure how accurate that is though.

Posted by: Puddleglum at work at April 12, 2025 09:35 PM (rRMBj)

219 The clever is the enemy of the good, it is said … but this essay combines the best of both in its presentation. Good job, mate.

Posted by: Dr_No at April 12, 2025 09:35 PM (ayRl+)

220 I'm not sure what you are arguing; that the #1 priority for any movie should be "good"?
I'd assign it #2. " Clever" and "entertaining" are not synonymous, but there's a lot of overlap there.
I'll appeal to authority and quote a writer -not screenwriter, for sure, but professional, in the denotational sense- , Sarah Hoyt.
(Paraphrased) If it isn't entertaining, the rest is irrelevant.

Posted by: buddhaha at April 12, 2025 09:36 PM (y0bUn)

221 217 I agree on Anora. Well made but not stand out. If you watch that director's other movies (Red Rocket and Marcy Mae Martha Marlene) you can see he likes certain topics, and I think he was being rewarded more for his earlier work than Anora really.

Posted by: Lex at April 12, 2025 09:37 PM (MYYw0)

222 I will hazard to say no good script (under my definition) can do poorly financially. If you understand that element of your story you will find a paying audience

---

Maybe, but it still might take years before a 'good' film gets recognized. Blade Runner flopped in its initial theatrical run.

Posted by: WillowViney at April 12, 2025 09:39 PM (d3MA1)

223 The dumbest thing about Prometheus is that the guy says he spent one trillion dollars on the project and one of the first things one of the scientists says after waking up is something like "don't talk to me; I don't like people very much." So you spent one trillion and didn't weed out all the d bags from your mission?

Posted by: Lex at April 12, 2025 09:39 PM (MYYw0)

224 All Hail Eris, you nailed it. Some really bad choices.

Posted by: Ben Had at April 12, 2025 09:39 PM (yp8Vj)

225 I'm watching "Alien: Romulus" again. Yeah, yeah, I like it. Deal.

Anyway, the subtitles are like AI haiku:

-[Rain gasps]
-[parasitoid screeching]
-Tyler: No, no, no...

Posted by: All Hail Eris, She-Wolf of the 'Ettes 'Ettes at April 12, 2025 09:40 PM (kpS4V)

226 OT: the Western Michigan Horsies are beating the Boston U Doggies, 4-2, in the National Championship. Still third period, 12:16 to go.

Posted by: Puddleglum at work at April 12, 2025 09:41 PM (rRMBj)

227 So you spent one trillion and didn't weed out all the d bags from your mission?
Posted by: Lex at April 12, 2025 09:39 PM (MYYw0)
----

Elon needs to put Weyland-Yutani under the microscope.

Posted by: All Hail Eris, She-Wolf of the 'Ettes 'Ettes at April 12, 2025 09:41 PM (kpS4V)

228 226 College hockey not high on my list but BU always had good teams. I'm more invested in The Masters. It's going to be another Rory v Bryson showdown tomorrow.

Posted by: Lex at April 12, 2025 09:44 PM (MYYw0)

229
Hi Lex,

I don't really buy the dichotomy between clever and good.

F'rinstance, some folk wish to consume movies/books like comfort food.

Take the movie "A Working Man". It doesn't qualify as a clever movie. It's basically an 80's style action rehash with Jason Stratham. It doesn't really qualify as a good movie except-

if you want to go see some bad guys get the asses kicked and JS win the day, well then you've just had your Whatburger with Cheese and Jalapeños.

"A Working Man" did okay at the box office because it delivered in exactly the same way that Dominoes Pizza does.

Clever? No. Good. Nope. Satisfying? Yep.

\

Posted by: naturalfake at April 12, 2025 09:44 PM (iJfKG)

230 For great dialogue, you can't beat Casablanca. Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid is another fantastic one. "Who Are those guys??"

Posted by: Beverly at April 12, 2025 09:44 PM (Epeb0)

231 I liked Noomi better in " The Girl with the Dragon Tattoo" series

Posted by: Ben Had at April 12, 2025 09:45 PM (yp8Vj)

232 Did Whispering Pines ever get made? Great concept.

Posted by: Beverly at April 12, 2025 09:46 PM (Epeb0)

233 I like Keanu Reeves movies so it’s not the acting that does it. It has to be the script.

Posted by: Sebastian Melmoth at April 12, 2025 09:46 PM (VofaG)

234 Well that was an essay, all right.

I've heard of 'good vs clever' before, though I heard it phrased 'sizzle vs steak'. Most of Hollywood is just selling the sizzle when what people are satisfied by is steak.

Related, of course, is William Goldman's classic book/observation about Hollywood: Nobody Knows Anything.

One of the problems is that the person with the power to greenlight someone, to open a checkbooks, is trying to chase a 'sure thing'. And there are no sure things. But there are GOOD things. Unfortunately, they all want the big, smash hit. The greenlighters, aside maybe from Blumhouse, aren't interested in
a small profit.

There is zero reason Hollywood couldn't make 12 20-million dollar films that would make 40 million each. They want the 3 million dollar film that makes 90 million. Or more.

Posted by: Mark Andrew Edwards, Buy ammo at April 12, 2025 09:49 PM (xcxpd)

235 Beach Blanket Bingo"
"The Ghost in the Invisible Bikini"
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Posted by: Idaho Spudboy
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Nubile women in skimpy costumes. There's a unique concept. It'll make bank, but it's no blockbuster when the appeal is to a narrow demographic: males from puberty to around 40.
I think I saw one of them, but I was in.the target demo when they came out.

Posted by: buddhaha at April 12, 2025 09:49 PM (y0bUn)

236 229 you're not wrong, but today's movies don't even try to think about a dramatic purpose. As I explained in the essay, no one would take Caddyshack for something other than a comfort movie but it has a clear dramatic purpose. Low brow and middle range and genre movies can and should have well thought out dramatic purpose, not just a 'wouldn't it be cool' vibe. That's why we are logjammed with bad movies, mostly prequels and sequels and all of that, today. Because writers have given up on trying to even consider dramatic purpose while looking for the next clever idea. I say we can have both if people stop to think about it for a moment.

Posted by: Lex at April 12, 2025 09:50 PM (MYYw0)

237 The Thin Man movies were the epitome of dialogue.

Posted by: Ben Had at April 12, 2025 09:51 PM (yp8Vj)

238 I'm more invested in The Masters. It's going to be another Rory v Bryson showdown tomorrow.

Me too. Gonna be fun, if you're a golf fan.

Posted by: Notorious BFD at April 12, 2025 09:51 PM (mH6SG)

239 232. I didn't even send Whispering Pines to anyone for consideration. I wrote it and filed it away. But I knew it not only had a clever idea but a dramatic purpose. I don't have the patience anymore to go through the process of trying to get a rep and develop a script for the market, so I don't bother even if I have something I would consider sellable.

Posted by: Lex at April 12, 2025 09:51 PM (MYYw0)

240 218 206 Isn't Soldier in the Bladerunner universe?
Posted by: Grump928(C)

That's what I've read out on the interwebs. Not sure how accurate that is though.
Posted by: Puddleglum at work at April 12, 2025 09:35 PM (rRMBj)

That's the screenwriter's intent. I don't think it's explicit in the movie though.

Likewise Event Horizon is in the Warhammer 40k universe but is not explicitly described as such.

Posted by: Mark Andrew Edwards, Buy ammo at April 12, 2025 09:52 PM (xcxpd)

241 >> College hockey not high on my list

Should be.

Posted by: JackStraw at April 12, 2025 09:54 PM (LkLld)

242 Sorry, busy with pasta carbonara and haven't read the comments, but a q for Lex: where - if it does - do historical war movies fit into all this?

Specifically, many who know the history have remarked at how real-life history has far exceeded fiction in terms of drama and of course import, in cases such as Midway* and Leyte Gulf in the WWII Pacific.

It's hard to imagine any benefit from screenwriters adding fictional elements. Telling the story straight (lots of technique/etc in terms of story-telling, to be sure) should suffice.

Is this nonsense? Or potentially, or partially, correct?

Posted by: rhomboid at April 12, 2025 09:55 PM (1m82a)

243 234. I think I cut it out of this version of the essay, but I went on for a few paragraphs about Paranormal Activity. How everyone wants the $25,000 movie that makes $100 million. So of course there are those calculations, but most of the time they turn out to be wrong. Ace has been discussing Snow White recently. Think of how many genius producers and executives worked on that and they couldn't even make it a one star movie. But to go back to my point, it used to be that the titans of the industry could fuse clever and good more seamlessly than they do today. Why that is is more of a sociological/intellectual argument than a metaphsysical one.

Posted by: Lex at April 12, 2025 09:55 PM (MYYw0)

244 241 I used to watch much pro hockey in my younger days. I grew up on Ray Borque and Rick Middleton and the Bruins of that era. Just lapsed these days and only so much time for sports, so I focus on golf and football and the others fall aside.

Posted by: Lex at April 12, 2025 09:57 PM (MYYw0)

245 My old hockey circle in DC talked but never managed to organize going to the frozen four some year. Would do it in a heartbeat. College hockey is one of the best forms of the sport, period. The other great ones will go unmentioned as it would ruffle feathers.

Anyway let's see how this bucatini works in the carbonara.

Posted by: rhomboid at April 12, 2025 09:57 PM (1m82a)

246 OT: the Western Michigan Horsies are beating the Boston U Doggies, 4-2, in the National Championship. Still third period, 12:16 to go.
Posted by: Puddleglum at work at April 12, 2025 09:41 PM (rRMBj)

National Championship of what?

If it's not girls fencing, with trannies in it, I'm not interested.

Posted by: BurtTC at April 12, 2025 09:58 PM (BFqLx)

247 242 I'll relate Robert MacNamara's comments after watching 13 DAYS, the Cuban missile crisis movie by Kevin Costner. He said they didn't swear that much and in real life what happened was extremely boring, just men sitting around tables. So even in war, there is a ton of hum drumery, and the job of any drama is to condense the emotion and action into a narrative that can be watched in two hours. Maybe that movie 1917 does the real time thing, which was more gimmicky than anything else, but war movies are maybe more deft at conveying certain things than we realize. If you look deeply at some of the ones you admire there is probably more going on than will one army defeat the other.

Posted by: Lex at April 12, 2025 10:00 PM (MYYw0)

248 >>I used to watch much pro hockey in my younger days. I grew up on Ray Borque and Rick Middleton and the Bruins of that era. Just lapsed these days and only so much time for sports, so I focus on golf and football and the others fall aside.

The biggest problem with most screenwriters is they don't really understand what they are writing about.

Watching isn't participating.

Posted by: JackStraw at April 12, 2025 10:01 PM (LkLld)

249 Why that is is more of a sociological/intellectual argument than a metaphsysical one.
Posted by: Lex at April 12, 2025 09:55 PM (MYYw0)

Yeah, I think plenty of people decided James Gunn and Josh Whedon types were some kind of genius, but it turns out they're mostly just clever.

Seems to have run its course though, clever just gets tiresome after a while.

Posted by: BurtTC at April 12, 2025 10:02 PM (BFqLx)

250 248 good point. I think they used to be more literate too. Not that they can't read but classic screenwriters all probably new the classics and read great novels, drama, history, philosophy, etc. Now they don't know any of that and sit around thinking about what would be cool.

Posted by: Lex at April 12, 2025 10:04 PM (MYYw0)

251 Maybe that movie 1917 does the real time thing, which was more gimmicky than anything else, but war movies are maybe more deft at conveying certain things than we realize. If you look deeply at some of the ones you admire there is probably more going on than will one army defeat the other.
Posted by: Lex at April 12, 2025 10:00 PM (MYYw0)

It makes perfect sense to me, if you're going to make a war movie, you have some of the characters reveal who they are, maybe give them a love interest back home, or put them near the end of their tour, so there's dramatic tension.

All of which is to say, if you're watching the movie, and they're being faithful to the historical record, they have a dance to do, showing you the people you, the audience, should care about, while showing you the Big Picture.

It's not often done well. Usually one at the expense of the other.

Posted by: BurtTC at April 12, 2025 10:05 PM (BFqLx)

252 249 Agreed. They aren't as smart as you would think. But selling a script or producing one or two good movies, in many eyes, translates to genius status for some. Part of the problem.

Posted by: Lex at April 12, 2025 10:06 PM (MYYw0)

253 It's not even dark here, but I guess it's the middle of the night for most.

New thread up.

Posted by: BurtTC at April 12, 2025 10:07 PM (BFqLx)

254 251 I'd say something like Platoon is not really about Vietnam and the war but the battle for Sheen's soul. He even says it at some point. The Barnes v Elias in all of us. It might be a bit obvious, but that's a war movie being more than clever or just reflecting the times and the hell of war. It's about how you choose a cause or a side or to be good or to be evil.

Posted by: Lex at April 12, 2025 10:08 PM (MYYw0)

255 I enjoyed the essay very much. Thanks for taking the time to organize and share your thoughts.
Love the oldies and I think you explained why. Haven't been to a movie since Costner's Horizon... I still feel like a fool for sitting through that...
Caught Night People (Peck, Ebsen, Crawford, absinthe) for the umpteenth time.. very fine movie.

Posted by: Nope! at April 12, 2025 10:10 PM (ZiDV2)

256 255 Thanks, Nope! I'm glad people got something out of it. It only took me 25 years to organize all the thoughts.

Posted by: Lex at April 12, 2025 10:23 PM (MYYw0)

257 Thanks, Nope! I'm glad people got something out of it. It only took me 25 years to organize all the thoughts.
Posted by: Lex at April 12, 2025 10:23 PM (MYYw0)

Glad to see you in print with this. And thanks for the... wait a minnit. The p p plug....

Posted by: OrangeEnt at April 12, 2025 10:31 PM (0eaVi)

258 Apologies...I owe it all to Orange Ent...editor and feedback supplier supreme. To anyone reading, you want a good take on your essay/story seek him out!

Posted by: Lex at April 12, 2025 10:43 PM (MYYw0)

259 Apologies...I owe it all to Orange Ent...editor and feedback supplier supreme. To anyone reading, you want a good take on your essay/story seek him out!
Posted by: Lex at April 12, 2025 10:43 PM (MYYw0)

That's all right. It's your work that matters, and you received some good feedback.

Posted by: OrangeEnt at April 12, 2025 10:52 PM (0eaVi)

260
One of William Goldman's observations about film is that the top tier of popular film is art, but virtually every art film is unwatchably snooty self-important dreck, especially the top tier.

That idea has served me well as a movie fan.

Posted by: IllTemperedCur at April 12, 2025 11:33 PM (FoIOl)

261 Most compelling essay, Lex -- thank you for your insights, and I learned some new ideas & insights.

Would be curious to hear or see your definitions of "clever" and "good" in this context.

Cheers!

Posted by: ShainS -- On Democracies and Death Cults at April 13, 2025 03:13 AM (8a1Lt)

262 I've read the original script of Caddyshack and it was actually deeper than what made the final cut, in that the main thrust was indeed what path was Danny going to take? Would he go to his third-rate college in Nebraska or would he set out on his own path? In the original Maggie did get pregnant by Danny and he and his rival (play by Columby in the movie) were vying for her attention - and in fact his rival did win her love, and Danny chose to forge his own path with the winnings from the tournament and not go to college.

Posted by: cheshirecat at April 13, 2025 03:39 AM (TwA+r)

263 "I'd say most TV series end up losing the thread because they try to get too clever and go beyond what made the early seasons great. Breaking Bad, Better Call Saul, Cobra Kai, etc. Only The Wire sort of understood the different seasons had separate points to make and that after five of them it was time to stop. "

Disagree to a point about Cobra Kai - it did start to meander into the younger characters a bit much in the middle seasons, but the last two seasons got back on the main plot of Johnny's redemption and triumph and it concluded very satisfactory all around.

Posted by: cheshirecat at April 13, 2025 03:42 AM (TwA+r)

264 If you go to college to watch TV you are a loser not a hero. You are what is wrong. Millennials are the most defective generation in human history.

Posted by: Fisht at April 13, 2025 08:17 AM (BHEHK)

265 This is awesome, Lex, thanks very much. Sorry I couldn't be here live to discuss, even with the heads-up in the AoS writer's email list.

I've taken up screenwriting as a second career and I'm struggling to break through. After reading this essay, I will take some time out, try to read my own work with fresh eyes, and see if I can discern the dramatic purpose.

Really a great essay and greatly appreciated.

Posted by: Candidus at April 13, 2025 09:07 AM (RJNKN)

266 261 Id be happy to follow up with you. Wasn't sure about the question. Not sure how to link my contact info here to anyone who wants to continue the discussion. You can find me on the AoS literary group.

Posted by: Lex at April 13, 2025 09:48 AM (MYYw0)

267 263 I was really annoyed with Cobra Kai after about the first season and could tell it was meandering and just doing fan service. It was a "clever" idea and a good one even to focus on John Lawrence, a character who we only knew as a jerk and a bully. But I never liked how they invented this ridiculous story that he was the step son of some wealthy guy who disowned him so they could make him a working class guy. That was extremely artificial but I'm guessing that was typical Hollywood 'let's make him sympathetic by not having him by a rich snob.' When they started messing around with that stuff I got turned off. The last seasons were too much of a whirl of changing dojos and perspectives and things that would never happen. Sekai Takai...why did they even use that? Everyone pronounced it differently. Just call it the world championships or something. CK was an interesting concept but execution suffered the more they went on. Clever, clever, clever. Not good

Posted by: Lex at April 13, 2025 09:52 AM (MYYw0)

268 265 The great thing about screenwriting these days is living in LA is not as necessary as it used to be. Since scripts can be sent via email and there's Zoom you can really be anywhere. If you were going for TV, LA might be more appropriate because they staff shows in person, but given the current conditions I'd still say clever is what gets attention. So if you can come up with an idea that has a clever hook and execute it well, you can get something going. Odds are if it gets bought they'll hire someone else to rewrite it anyway. It's a tough career if it's your first OR second. You can score a big sale but then go dry for a year. Cliche to say it but don't quit your day job until you are sure you can live off writing. I know many writers who had some success but then were waiting tables or whatever a few years later. It's a tough life but we writers will do anything to get our stories out there, so I wish you luck. If you can connect your clever idea to a dramatic purpose then you will hit a home run no matter where it ends up and you should be proud you created something unique and wonderful. We all want success but creation should be the goal above acclaim.

Posted by: Lex at April 13, 2025 10:00 AM (MYYw0)

269 Maybe I'm just so dense as to have to ask, but is the elderly superhero _you_; thinking that you could have taught better, earlier, if you had come to this "dramatic purpose" realization sooner?

Posted by: Chas C-Q at April 13, 2025 11:12 AM (U8S9W)

270 Much of Hollywood's problem today is woke messaging, shoehorned into franchise movies, in an apparent effort to piss off normie fans of the franchise. It does not make them "good"; quite the opposite.

Even while chasing blockbuster dollars, they cannot help themselves, trying to Up the Revolution.

Posted by: Chas C-Q at April 13, 2025 11:32 AM (U8S9W)

271 Taught screenwriting but never had a film made. WTF?

Posted by: Sara at April 13, 2025 01:04 PM (/DBoU)

272 271 90% of screenwriting instructors never had a film made. Bill Belichick never played a down of professional football. It doesn't work like you think it does.

Posted by: Lex at April 13, 2025 01:39 PM (MYYw0)

273 269. Hahaha...no! My grandmother was in an assisted living facility for a while so I would get ideas all the time after visits. This was one of them. But ask me in 30 years and it will be me, so maybe I'll get cracking on rewrites at that point in time.

Posted by: Lex at April 13, 2025 01:41 PM (MYYw0)

274 270 wokeism is cleverism or being clever. But it's also being lazy and not as literate. Just easier to go to some old franchise or TV show or origin story of a pre existing character than do the hard work of creating original ideas and worlds.

Posted by: Lex at April 13, 2025 01:42 PM (MYYw0)

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(Tapping on the window)...

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