Elon Musk and Vivek Ramaswamey Roil MAGA with Calls for Increased H-1B Visas for Skilled Tech Workers

No, we need more like double that number yesterday!

The number of people who are super talented engineers AND super motivated in the USA is far too low.

Think of this like a pro sports team: if you want your TEAM to win the championship, you need to recruit top talent wherever…
— Elon Musk (@elonmusk) December 25, 2024

Your understanding of the situation is upside-down and backwards.

OF COURSE my companies and I would prefer to hire Americans and we DO, as that is MUCH easier than going through the incredibly painful and slow work visa process.

HOWEVER, there is a dire shortage of extremely…
— Elon Musk (@elonmusk) December 25, 2024

I'm antagonistic to the idea of driving down American wages further by importing more indentured servitude workers. Note that H-1B workers can only work for the company that recruited and sponsored them, and if they lose that job, they have to leave the country. So the H-1B laws give employers leverage over foreign workers they don't have over American ones.

On the other hand, the American education system has been so thoroughly debased that we simply do not have an educated class any longer. Oh, we have a credential class -- but not an educated one.

Part of this is due to reducing standards and cutting work so that all the unqualified DEI students can achieve passing grades (or even B's and A's) to keep the numbers "looking good," from a racial Marxist POV.

But we can't ignore the fact that universities have long been placating students by handing out A's for what is at best C minus or even D-level work. Students complained about having to work hard at college, and complained about not getting A's, so universities -- supposedly charged with the goals of educating students and increasing the sum of human knowledge -- catered to their customers and cut coursework and gave everyone A's.

The result is that we just don't have enough actually educated workers. And it's getting worse.

I know the MAGA answer would be, "Well, just reform the universities!" But honestly, in reality, is that even possible? And if it were possible, wouldn't it take 10-20 years? And so wouldn't it take 25+ years before we even saw the impact of these unlikely reforms in the form of new graduates actually knowing their fields?

I don't really know what the answer is here. I don't think there are any good ones. The obvious solution -- fix the system that is turning out uneducated but highly-entitled dummies -- seems impossible, because the Education Deep State absolutely rejects all calls for reform or change.

Immigration restrictionist Mark Krikorian suggests some things that the Tech Bros and MAGA could actually agree upon.

As he has made clear repeatedly, Trump is not a restrictionist when it comes to legal immigration--but his voters certainly are. This sets up a potential conflict between the incoming president's new tech industry friends and his base. Politico framed it this way in a recent headline: "Elon Musk vs. Stephen Miller: Washington preps for battle on high-tech immigration."
It will come as no surprise that I'm on the Stephen Miller side of this dispute. But I don't want to litigate here the pros and cons of "skilled" immigration. Instead, I want to make the case that this tension need not be fatal--there are ways to address some of the concerns of the tech titans without increasing, or even while decreasing, overall legal immigration.
Let me outline two win-win changes, one administrative, one legislative.
The first involves a change in how we award H-1B visas. These are ostensibly temporary visas for foreign workers in "specialty occupations," mainly tech. There's a statutory cap of 85,000 issued per year, set by Congress, and there's always more demand than supply. Tech industry lobbyists have been relentless in pushing for higher numbers, a change consistently blocked by restrictionists arguing on a variety of grounds--it's an indentured, cheap-labor program, it undermines the job opportunities of Americans, it creates a dangerous dependence on foreign sources of talent for vital national industries. Most important, the lack of wage growth in science, technology, engineering, and math occupations is a strong indication there is no STEM labor shortage.
Enough lawmakers have been persuaded by these arguments (or fear those who make them) that Congress has not increased the numbers. The way DHS has handled the high demand is to run a lottery, with many employers submitting applications for far more workers than they need, in the hopes of winning a sufficient number in the lottery.
But if we actually want to facilitate the entry of what Elon Musk calls "super talented people," it's crazy to choose them by lottery from a pool that also includes many whose skills are middling at best. That's why the Department of Homeland Security during Donald Trump's first term issued a regulation to select H-1B applications based on the highest salaries offered. The rationale is that if these are truly high-value workers then employers will value them highly, as reflected in the pay that's being offered.

Now that is a neat solution that is hard to argue with. If these H-1B's are really "super-talented" and "indispensable," then surely you're offering them $150,000+ salaries.

If you're only offering $70,000, then you're not recruiting "super-talented," "indispensable" workers. You're merely hiring middling workers at a discount.

Krikorian's other idea: Sure, increase the number of H-1B's issued to "super-talented" workers.

But only when simultaneously cutting the number of Green Cards issued to non-super-talented workers.

One approach would be to increase the number of skill-based visas, added on top of the current system. This would raise the share issued based on skill, but would also increase total immigration. Given that the foreign-born share of our population has exceeded anything ever recorded--it's higher now than it was during the Ellis Island era, with no natural end in sight--increasing the overall level of immigration is a non-starter, however much Trump's new tech friends may want that.
Or, you could abolish the chain-migration family categories for any but the husbands, wives, and little children of US citizens and eliminate the Diversity Visa Lottery and reassign all those 450,000-500,000 green cards to skills-based admissions, leaving the overall annual level of immigration the same.
Recall, though, that the large majority of Trump supporters don't just want the level of legal immigration to stay the same--they want it reduced. The obvious win-win, then, is to eliminate the chain-migration categories and the visa lottery and reallocate, say, half of those visas to the current skilled categories. This would result in both an increase in the number and share of new immigrants chosen for their skills and a reduction in the overall level of immigration.

This is a great idea, but it requires Congressional action, so....

It's as impossible as reforming the education system.

Speaking of education and immigration:

Uneducated thugs and anti-American foreigners living in our country are claiming that it's imperialist and "American-centric" to even know what The Odyssey is.

We're not talking about reading it or studying it, mind you. They're claiming that expecting people to simply know that The Odyssey is an epic Greek poem about Odysseus's travels is western chauvanism.

“Knowing about ‘The Odyssey’ is culturally America-centric” is why I’ll never leave this place. pic.twitter.com/UT4O0jWEei
— John Ekdahl (@JohnEkdahl) December 25, 2024

We must all become stupid to make the ignorant feel better about their ignorance, and we must remake America into a non-Western nation so that anti-Western immigrants may feel at home here.

Posted by: Ace at 03:00 PM

Comments

(Jump to bottom of comments)

1 Here we go ...

Posted by: ShainS -- Eliminate vast bureaucracies of civil servants, no longer servants and no longer civil at December 27, 2024 03:00 PM (W35BD)

2 Biddy biddy biddy

Posted by: Tom Servo at December 27, 2024 03:00 PM (CT61Q)

3 We must all become stupid to make the ignorant feel better about their ignorance, and we must remake America into a non-Western nation so that anti-Western immigrants may feel at home here.

Posted by: Ace at 03:00 PM

This is what we're doing. And of course foreign countries are paying our universities a mint to set aside many, many spaces for their citizens.

Posted by: long night ending, dawn in January at December 27, 2024 03:01 PM (2NXcZ)

4 When was the education system any good? 100 years ago?

Posted by: ... at December 27, 2024 03:02 PM (VyqB4)

5 ok, i noodled if no one else did

Posted by: gnats local 678 at December 27, 2024 03:03 PM (CWTWj)

6 We can disagree on our side without it being the end of the world. I would much rather be arguing about this right now than which bugs we're going to be voluntold to eat for nourishment in 2027.

Posted by: ... at December 27, 2024 03:03 PM (VyqB4)

7 "Odyssey!?"

"I ain't drivin' no Honda!"

Posted by: garrett at December 27, 2024 03:04 PM (j6KoD)

8 Kathy Barnette twitter

1. We won because of Elon.
2. America First is to benefit Americans first.. we will not be the only beneficiaries. But how a decision will impact Americans over corporate profits should certainly be at the top of every politician's mind.
3. Our immigration system is broken, flawed, and corrupted.
4. Removing all caps on H1B visas is not the solution to a real problem.
5. America is not a corporation where the #1 consideration of its leaders is maximizing shareholders' profits, alone.
6. Dialogue, especially robust dialogue, is the single best test of measuring just how free we really are.
7. Trump is not Jesus and is not above being questioned.
8. Trump should seriously reconsider the role Sriram Krishnan plays in *his* administration.
9. There's room for David Sacks and others like him in guiding our nation at the highest level. We desperately need smarter people in our government.
10. Vivek is amazing. He's a wonderful testimony of the greatness of America. Noone has articulated our values better than him.
11. BONUS: I just discovered @NicoleShanahan
and I really like her.
12. BONUS+: America is the greatest country that has ever existed. EVER!

Posted by: L - Hook him, book him cook him. Now! at December 27, 2024 03:04 PM (NFX2v)

9 If there aren't enough trained Americans, why doesn't Elon found a tech training facility for American workers? It would take years before it would pay off, but Elon doesn't seem to worry about money that much.

Posted by: BeckoningChasm at December 27, 2024 03:04 PM (WPL6O)

10 >>>The number of people who are super talented engineers AND super motivated in the USA is far too low.

Having spent many years listening to Elon on podcasts and mildly following his antics, I know exactly what he means by this.

He wants "super talented engineers" who are willing to work for him for very cheap but work nearly 24/7. His employees famously sleep in their offices (him included) regularly.

He also needs people who will be willing to work for a company tied to Elon Musk. As you can imagine, in the lefty tech world, he is not exactly the most popular guy on the planet. But people from India don't care about that.

Posted by: Harry Paratestes at December 27, 2024 03:05 PM (uCjyK)

11 I feel like I covered my thoughts already! I do think we mostly are on the same page.

Vivek's point had merit but as a country we need to look at the H1-B program.

US schools need reforming but that can only be done via school choice and it will take time.

And I really like that we can have reasonable disagreements on big subjects.

Posted by: Black Orchid at December 27, 2024 03:05 PM (Pv3Rg)

12 Krikorian's other idea: Sure, increase the number of H-1B's issued to "super-talented" workers.

But only when simultaneously cutting the number of Green Cards issued to non-super-talented workers.

One approach would be to increase the number of skill-based visas, added on top of the current system. This would raise the share issued based on skill, but would also increase total immigration. Given that the foreign-born share of our population has exceeded anything ever recorded--it's higher now than it was during the Ellis Island era, with no natural end in sight--increasing the overall level of immigration is a non-starter, however much Trump's new tech friends may want that.

Or, you could abolish the chain-migration family categories for any but the husbands, wives, and little children of US citizens and eliminate the Diversity Visa Lottery and reassign all those 450,000-500,000 green cards to skills-based admissions, leaving the overall annual level of immigration the same.

This is the way.

Posted by: Archimedes at December 27, 2024 03:05 PM (xCA6C)

13 Removing all caps on H1B visas is not the solution to a real problem.

REMOVE ALL CAPS?

Posted by: Commissar of Plenty and Lysenkoism in Solidarity with the Struggle at December 27, 2024 03:06 PM (PAa7I)

14 Removing all caps on H1B visas is not the solution to a real problem.

All? Not even a festive little cap?

Posted by: Commissar of Plenty and Lysenkoism in Solidarity with the Struggle at December 27, 2024 03:07 PM (PAa7I)

15 First, US colleges graduated 112k Comp. Sci majors in 23/24.

So the first question is, how many Comp. Sci graduates do we need per year to fill the jobs that need to be filled.

If we need more than are being produced indigenously, then you are going to have to import tech workers.

But unless Musk and Vivek want to break that down, I'm suspicious of them simply saying we need more.

Posted by: Thomas Bender at December 27, 2024 03:08 PM (XV/Pl)

16 I did a thread on this that I will sum up here:

The fight about H1B encapsulates the fight with nearly all legislation: the restrictions on the program that led to the compromise to pass the law are ignored. As a result, people are, justifiably, not going to believe people who come along and say no, the program has to be larger!

The compromise for H1B is that companies have to attest that there are no US workers who are available for the job at the prevailing market wage. The compromise was specifically designed to prevent wage dilution for US workers.

I will pause while everyone laughs.

De jure, the program is fine. De facto, it's a cesspit of corruption.

Posted by: alexthechick at December 27, 2024 03:08 PM (1YfKX)

17
oh golly
is this the part where the circular firing squad forms?

Posted by: Don Black. Message: Cheetos are key at December 27, 2024 03:08 PM (/7KEl)

18 Afternoon/evening to the Horde from London! I don’t want to threadjack, so I’m just saying hello and will pop in a bit later.

Posted by: BCochran1981 at December 27, 2024 03:08 PM (L7WWq)

19 I think it should be fine to bring in H-1Bs to replace CEOs, anyone on the executive board, and all the upper management. Anyone else, no, unless they are THE pioneer in their field. Or hot chicks.

Posted by: banana Dream at December 27, 2024 03:08 PM (Y6IkP)

20 I don't really know what the answer is here. I don't think there are any good ones. The obvious solution -- fix the system that is turning out uneducated but highly-entitled dummies -- seems impossible, because the Education Deep State absolutely rejects all calls for reform or change.

If people like Musk aren't willing to go to war with the US miseducation racket, then they can't really solve any of the problems they claim to want to resolve. Our educational system essentially is California-like, and it's that kind of California-like insanity that ostensibly got Musk to jump the Dem ship in the first place. But oligarchs gonna oligarch.

Posted by: bear with asymmetrical balls at December 27, 2024 03:09 PM (XLQLg)

21 ***I'm antagonistic to the idea of driving down American wages further by importing more indentured servitude workers. Note that H-1B...***
---

Read a clip from Elon; The Turkish man who did the heavy lifting on 5G (big brains) was sent home by the Biden admin because of immigration laws. If we let anyone in 'big brains' should first in line, duh. Or, oh, let's give the smart one's to Iran and China.
By the way, that's where the Turk wound up - Chyna.

Posted by: Braenyard - some absent friends are more equal than others _ at December 27, 2024 03:09 PM (eY5jv)

22 "And if it were possible, wouldn't it take 10-20 years?"

It is possible with drastic changes and would only take a couple of years to see results. Drastic meaning DRASTIC CATASTROPHIC CHANGES.

Posted by: fd at December 27, 2024 03:09 PM (vFG9F)

23 My high school was absolute shit back when I went there.

No computer or technology classes available at all.

And all anyone (including the teachers) cared about was the Football Team.

This wasn't even that long ago.

Posted by: XTC at December 27, 2024 03:09 PM (UnA8+)

24 btw Nicole shanahan has an excellent post covering her thoughts on this on X

Posted by: Black Orchid at December 27, 2024 03:09 PM (Pv3Rg)

25 De jure, the program is fine. De facto, it's a cesspit of corruption.

Posted by: alexthechick at December 27, 2024 03:08 PM (1YfKX)

Sooooo….like all of human history?

Posted by: BCochran1981 at December 27, 2024 03:09 PM (L7WWq)

26 >>I did a thread on this that I will sum up here:

Keep it short.

...oh, it's AtC. That shouldn't be a problem.

Posted by: garrett at December 27, 2024 03:10 PM (j6KoD)

27 I get that we should all be getting along here, but here is the problem with immigration as I see it.

At some point, there is no coming back. This country will be completely remade in to an entirely different country. One that will likely be nowhere near as prosperous for the middle class.

We are watching that unfold right before our eyes here.

What happens if we lift the cap on H1B's? Well, the number of H1B spots would then only be limited by the number of job openings. What is to stop every major american company from replacing their employees with foreign workers who are willing to (for a short time) work 60-70 hours a week for less money? And those people are indentured servants to the company (visa tied to job), so they can't leave.

Even if unwound in 5-10 years, how does that affect the future of the US?

Posted by: Harry Paratestes at December 27, 2024 03:10 PM (uCjyK)

28 This is not gonna sit well with most of Trumps voters.

Posted by: Mister Scott (Formerly GWS) at December 27, 2024 03:11 PM (Rcnd3)

29 The reason we need so many H1bs? US Government policies. I used to teach Network Engineering to adults in a Trade School atmosphere... did it for years and the company I was with was delivering over $1 Million a month in training in the Denver / Boulder / Co Springs area.

We were building Americans to do Americas jobs... then? The Government decided that any type of retraining dollar had to get college credits. Whether from being unemployed, to Military, to Corporate Tax Credits... we no longer were considered 'education'.... even though I had 3 College Professors sit through my classes so they could learn this stuff well enough to teach it.

This happened at the exact same time, the H1B program was put on steroids. They literally killed the Tech Trade Education industry, and outsourced it. The reason we are short of Engineers? The US Governments education policies of the last 20 years.

Posted by: Romeo13 at December 27, 2024 03:11 PM (QAkQ3)

30 >>By the way, that's where the Turk wound up - Chyna.

Total Coincidence that the US 5G system is 100% compromised by Chinese Intel, I am sure.

Posted by: garrett at December 27, 2024 03:11 PM (j6KoD)

31 The framing of this from the likes of Musk and Vivek have the stench of "false dichotomy", as ol' Purple Lips liked to say.

Posted by: Dworkin Barimen at December 27, 2024 03:11 PM (D2qm/)

32 Sooooo….like all of human history?
Posted by: BCochran1981 at December 27, 2024 03:09 PM (L7WWq)

*smacks the Limey*

As I noted, the problem with this is that it involves people.

Posted by: alexthechick at December 27, 2024 03:11 PM (1YfKX)

33 I really don’t understand the controversy here. You start by hiring Americans. If there aren’t enough skilled workers available, you import them.

As we’ve always done. The problem is not a lack of jobs. The problem is useless people who are a drain on taxpayers.

If you’re an asset and not a drain, come on in. I don’t care how brown or green you are.

Posted by: BurtTC at December 27, 2024 03:11 PM (EOu+L)

34 The vast majority of H1B tech workers are not "super talented" and "indispensable." Just the opposite. They have basic competence in their field and are hired to do mostly basic tasks.

Probably 90% of tech jobs are not rocket science. They require some knowledge and skills, obviously, but it doesn't take someone "super talented" to successfully accomplish his boss's order to "go and do this."

That's true of almost all fields and industries, not just tech. There are a very few "super talented" people here and there. The vast majority are not.

Posted by: Elric The Blade at December 27, 2024 03:12 PM (iFTx/)

35 There's really multiple issues intersecting here.

Colleges and businesses for both woke and crooked reasons greatly devalue straight white men (what Jonah Goldberg called "The Pale Penis People" back when he was sort of readable).

Lots of replies to Elon and Vivek by and about white guys with advanced degrees who could not get a job in tech and ended up joining the military or switching careers entirely. My favorite one was from the mother of a young man with a masters in computer engineering who only got interview interest when he started checking that he was gay on the application.

Posted by: Ian S. at December 27, 2024 03:12 PM (KLKSV)

36 >>>If people like Musk aren't willing to go to war with the US miseducation racket, then they can't really solve any of the problems they claim to want to resolve.
---

Trump, Musk & Ramaswamy can't do everything at once. Our engineering gap is now, no fifteen years down the road which is how long it will take if, presto, we change the ed system right now.

Posted by: Braenyard - some absent friends are more equal than others _ at December 27, 2024 03:12 PM (eY5jv)

37 This was pretty much hashed over in the last thread. If you are really interested in this subject it would be worth your time to go and read there. There are a lot of good comments.

Posted by: pawn, RIP Vic at December 27, 2024 03:12 PM (QB+5g)

38 >>> btw Nicole shanahan has an excellent post covering her thoughts on this on X
Posted by: Black Orchid at December 27, 2024 03:09 PM (Pv3Rg)

Yeah she had the best take.

Posted by: banana Dream at December 27, 2024 03:12 PM (Y6IkP)

39 Don't know how many times it will be necessary to ad Ramaswamy to browser dictionary before it learns how to spell his name.

Posted by: Braenyard - some absent friends are more equal than others _ at December 27, 2024 03:13 PM (eY5jv)

40 Uneducated thugs and anti-American foreigners living in our country are claiming that it's imperialist and "American-centric" to even know what The Odyssey is.

We're not talking about reading it or studying it, mind you. They're claiming that expecting people to simply know that The Odyssey is an epic Greek poem about Odysseus's travels is western chauvanism.

=======

Is it imperialism for African-Americans to know about it?

Posted by: TheJamesMadison, trying to figure out Joel Schumacher at December 27, 2024 03:13 PM (4LF+x)

41 *smacks the Limey*

As I noted, the problem with this is that it involves people.

Posted by: alexthechick at December 27, 2024 03:11 PM (1YfKX)

How dare you.

You are actually politer than I am. You’re willing to assume that this would work in theory but that people peopled it all up. I’m cynical and jaded enough to where I assume the corruption was the point from the start.

Posted by: BCochran1981 at December 27, 2024 03:13 PM (SncIZ)

42 My thing with the visas, and what a lot of the MAGA are very concerned with, is that the visas are simply going to be exploited like the 'asylum' crap is exploited now.

Importing ACTUAL, real, experienced and educated workers on visas is totally fine - AS LONG AS THEY ARE ACTUALLY EXPERIENCED AND EDUCATED, and most importantly, AS LONG AS THEY ARE DEPORTED WHEN THE VISAS ARE UP.

As long as those 2 criteria are met, then it's fine.

But as always, WE WILL NOT DISCUSS MORE VISAS until you deport the tens of millions of illegals already here.

Fix the illegal problem, THEN we can talk about getting more here legally.

Posted by: DudeAbiding at December 27, 2024 03:14 PM (lCHt6)

43 19 I think it should be fine to bring in H-1Bs to replace CEOs, anyone on the executive board, and all the upper management. Anyone else, no, unless they are THE pioneer in their field. Or hot chicks.
Posted by: banana Dream at December 27, 2024 03:08 PM (Y6IkP)

Uh, you may want to look at the ethnic antecedents for many of the 'American' Tech CEOs.

They aint named Jones or Smith or Ford anymore.

Posted by: Romeo13 at December 27, 2024 03:14 PM (QAkQ3)

44 38 >>> btw Nicole shanahan has an excellent post covering her thoughts on this on X
Posted by: Black Orchid
---

Infatuated with Miss Shanahan, everything she says is perfect.

Posted by: Braenyard - some absent friends are more equal than others _ at December 27, 2024 03:14 PM (eY5jv)

45 Rbastid's totally haphazard and quickly thrown together plan for reform.

Strictly limited to tech/ medical/ STEM type fields that require true expertise. The company should also be something unique, your shitty dating app or tetris clone game, doesn't need 5,000 imported workers. No entry to mid-tier jobs. If it's entry level, you can train someone in a similar field quicker than you can import someone.

Strict limit to visas given based on a 5 year average of Americans hired within that industry. So if tech has averaged 1 Mil Americans hired a year, at 5% visas, they can get 50,000 H1b, as an industry, this year. If they've averaged 1k hired, then they gotta find a way to make due with 50.

On top of showing they've exhausted their American born options, there shall be a fee put in to a fund to provide grants to American born students going to school in that field. The students will be required to graduate and work/ activity show they're looking for work in that field for X number of years, in order to have grant forgiven.

1/2

Posted by: Rbastid at December 27, 2024 03:14 PM (yKsxZ)

46 2/2

Those fees will rise based on how many visas you are asking for, as well as how many years in a row you've been seeking them. Hell to appease lefties I'd even agree that a percentage should be given to help those who may not normally enter such fields, and those in communities where such jobs are almost looked down on.

Oversight on where these applicants are coming from. If it seems 90% of hires are coming from one small Indian town, or if it looks like there is a preference from a company to get 1 demographic, then their ability to get visas will be pulled and they'll be investigated for trying to traffic people.

Salary shall not be below what you'd pay a native worker, but also if you can't find someone in America for $X, and can't fund someone abroad for $X, then an American worker should first have to be offered the higher salary before it then being shopped out.

Obviously this was quickly pulled out of my ass, and none of it would ever happen because a majority of the Senate and house are paid off, but any limits are a good start. Especially since so many of these "tech" companies are just bs used to launder visas, and offer nothing important to society.

Posted by: Rbastid at December 27, 2024 03:15 PM (yKsxZ)

47 link to Nicole Shanahan's post:

https://x.com/nicoleshanahan/status/1872491541811671494

link to Alex's post:

https://x.com/alexthechick/status/1872429169658953868

Posted by: Black Orchid at December 27, 2024 03:15 PM (Pv3Rg)

48 Quick Question:

How many H1B Overstays are there in the US?

Posted by: garrett at December 27, 2024 03:15 PM (j6KoD)

49 On the one hand, I don't like to see American jobs go to foreign workers.

On the other hand, who did the vast majority of American tech workers vote for? What are their feelings on American blue-collar workers losing their jobs to foreigners? I think I know the answers.

So yea: I'm not getting all broken up over Musk and Vivek saying we need more foreign tech workers.

Posted by: Elric The Blade at December 27, 2024 03:15 PM (iFTx/)

50 The obvious win-win, then, is to eliminate the chain-migration categories and the visa lottery and reallocate, say, half of those visas to the current skilled categories. This would result in both an increase in the number and share of new immigrants chosen for their skills and a reduction in the overall level of immigration.

There's our problem. Why are we giving visas to mediocre or even unskilled people? Make sure that only skilled workers and immediate family (wife & kids) come here.

Posted by: Ciampino - A visitor visa was hard to get in the 90s at December 27, 2024 03:17 PM (i0xsb)

51 It's almost as of a predictable demand was made of a margonal candidate...

Posted by: Erik In Texas at December 27, 2024 03:17 PM (CSleh)

52 I really don’t understand the controversy here. You start by hiring Americans. If there aren’t enough skilled workers available, you import them.

As we’ve always done. The problem is not a lack of jobs. The problem is useless people who are a drain on taxpayers.

If you’re an asset and not a drain, come on in. I don’t care how brown or green you are.
Posted by: BurtTC at December 27, 2024 03:11 PM (EOu+L)

Yeah, but what about the other side of that equation? The US Citizen who went to college for a computer science degree, went $80,000 in debt to get the degree, and can't afford to live in Silicon Valley on the $75,000 salary that Microsoft is offering?

But 6 friends from India with dubious degrees from dubious universities and no debt can afford to each work at a $75k salary in Silicon Valley and share an apartment.

And so the American kid has to move home with his parents and work at starbucks and hate life and capitalism and america and everything else because he did what he was supposed to do and still got fuckd

This is what is actually happening. I know this is not supposed to be how the program works, but it is how it works in practice. The E1 visa is even more corrupt.

Posted by: Harry Paratestes at December 27, 2024 03:17 PM (uCjyK)

53 The true minimum wage is zero.

And you're a dirty communist if you don't support American companies testing that lower limit by undercutting the wages of citizens.

As noted below:
1) American companies lie brazenly about the "lack" of skilled workers.
2) Once a certain threshold of Asians/Indians are hired, they rig the hiring so that the whole department is full of aunties, uncles, cousins, in-laws. (See also, federal employment where one demographic is hugely over-represented via the same hiring practice)
3) Also, at that point, there is zero quality produced as they all cover for the other.
4) Which is then used to demand even more "skilled" foreign labor.

Posted by: People's Hippo Voice at December 27, 2024 03:17 PM (k16hl)

54 I'd like to see evidence for this assertion that "MAGA voters want legal immigration reduced", frankly.

Nevermind that our government represents ALL the people and not just the ones who voted for Trump. Overall, I guarantee you that there is not close to a majority that favors reducing LEGAL immigration.

Posted by: deadrody at December 27, 2024 03:17 PM (vgB0v)

55 48 Quick Question:

How many H1B Overstays are there in the US?
Posted by: garrett at December 27, 2024 03:15 PM (j6KoD)

Prepare to be shocked…it appears the government doesn’t track that number. Only the overall overstay numbers for all visas.

Posted by: BCochran1981 at December 27, 2024 03:17 PM (SncIZ)

56 Posted by: DudeAbiding at December 27, 2024 03:14 PM (lCHt6)

There are many many IT shops, run by 'Imported' Managers, that while smiling in your face, will only hire someone who speaks their native language.

Partly this is business smart, as a lot of their first tier help desk is in a foreign country...

My favorite was when I called into the Calif Labor Folks help desk... and the person answering the help line about Jobs in California, was clearly from Pakistan.

Posted by: Romeo13 at December 27, 2024 03:17 PM (QAkQ3)

57 Alex , BC, garrett, in the comments ...

Let the good times commence.

Posted by: browndog howling at December 27, 2024 03:18 PM (TTAGa)

58 The Left did what they always do, reframe a comment and push that.

I've seen a posting on X questioning home work for kids in school. Do you think, as adults, they might be called on to do work after hours? Does restricting work to school hours prepare them for that? And, as I actually posted, if they didn't have homework, you'd have no idea what the teachers are teaching

Posted by: Notsothoreau at December 27, 2024 03:18 PM (NQtI0)

59 If we are going to increase the number of H1Bs then yes I agree about mandating the highest salary. But more than that I want a complete rework of our immigration system. That's the trade.

None of this trimming around the edges bullshit. Gut it all. Close the doors and start with a clean slate.

I've done a lot of traveling around the world and at least before the EU lost its mind this country has some of the most liberal immigration policies in the world and there's no reason for it.

We don't have a "migrant crisis" and they aren't "undocumented migrants", they are illegal aliens. Get out and come in through the front door if we allow you to come here or don't come.

Posted by: JackStraw at December 27, 2024 03:18 PM (LkLld)

60 So, we've gone from "who'll pick our veggies?" to "who'll code our AI?"

Not sure that's progress. But, whatever.

Posted by: Martini Farmer at December 27, 2024 03:18 PM (Q4IgG)

61
Think of this like a pro sports team: if you want your TEAM to win the championship, you need to recruit top talent wherever�

Meh, bad analogy. He's thinking of "the team" as some modern sportsball team that brings in free agents from anywhere to win.

But the team is actually the community not the Cowboys or Lakers - I don't give a shit if MSFT or Apple make a ton of money...which then goes overseas.

I want these companies to be made AMERICAN again. American manufacturing, American employees, American stock owners. And that means they need to be forced to develop "farm teams". Make them hire and train Americans. Hell, make them pay to educate these Americans so the government is paying so much money...

Posted by: 18-1 at December 27, 2024 03:18 PM (oZhjI)

62 And so the American kid has to move home with his parents and work at starbucks and hate life and capitalism and america and everything else because he did what he was supposed to do and still got fuckd

This is what is actually happening. I know this is not supposed to be how the program works, but it is how it works in practice. The E1 visa is even more corrupt.

it is what is happening

in my experience either they join the military or start getting high and doing minor carpentry jobs

Posted by: Black Orchid at December 27, 2024 03:18 PM (Pv3Rg)

63 I'm shocked shocked that the side of the aisle that supports free speech is having a vigorous internal debate about a critically important issue involving hiring top talent in crucial tech industries. Shocked.

Your H1B visas, sir.

Posted by: Schroedinger's Cat Wears the Emperor's New Clothes at December 27, 2024 03:18 PM (bWR5k)

64 Posted by: Black Orchid at December 27, 2024 03:15 PM (Pv3Rg)

Thank you!

Posted by: alexthechick at December 27, 2024 03:19 PM (1YfKX)

65 I've done work several times for a boutique SW solution firm. Their business model has 3 steps:

1. Determine requirements, document a solution and architecture.

2. Bid on developing the solution. They almost always lose this, as client goes with much cheaper 'off-shore' resources.

3. Return and fix or rewrite "solution" delivered from Step 2. The cost for this almost always exceeds, sometimes significantly, the bid given in Step 2.

Owner, and his A-Team consultants, do very well.

Posted by: Duncanthrax at December 27, 2024 03:19 PM (a3Q+t)

66 >>>They aint named Jones or Smith or Ford anymore.
Posted by: Romeo13
---

vonBraun wasn't named Smith or Ford either

Posted by: Braenyard - some absent friends are more equal than others _ at December 27, 2024 03:19 PM (eY5jv)

67 >>Prepare to be shocked…it appears the government doesn’t track that number. Only the overall overstay numbers for all visas.

I am sure THOSE are accurate, tho.

Posted by: garrett at December 27, 2024 03:19 PM (j6KoD)

68 There's our problem. Why are we giving visas to mediocre or even unskilled people? Make sure that only skilled workers and immediate family (wife & kids) come here.
Posted by: Ciampino - A visitor visa was hard to get in the 90s at December 27, 2024 03:17 PM (i0xsb)

Who decides who is skilled, and how do they assess that?

That is the heart of the problem. Government drones going off check lists decide who is extraordinarily talented.

The candidates know what is on the check list. It's public information. There are entirely industries around getting people the documents / check marks to get on that list.

There is nothing extraordinary about nearly any of people using our visa programs.

Posted by: Harry Paratestes at December 27, 2024 03:19 PM (uCjyK)

69 Nevermind that our government represents ALL the people and not just the ones who voted for Trump. Overall, I guarantee you that there is not close to a majority that favors reducing LEGAL immigration.
Posted by: deadrody at December 27, 2024 03:17 PM (vgB0v)

I think you would be incorrect... currently there is 1.5 Million LEGAL immigrants every year under various programs. over 30 years? that's 45 Million... or well north of 10% of the population.

Posted by: Romeo13 at December 27, 2024 03:19 PM (QAkQ3)

70 Afternoon.

How...do you not know The Odyssey is Greek?

What...where...HUH?!?

Posted by: Robert at December 27, 2024 03:19 PM (vegba)

71 Lots of replies to Elon and Vivek by and about white guys with advanced degrees who could not get a job in tech and ended up joining the military or switching careers entirely. My favorite one was from the mother of a young man with a masters in computer engineering who only got interview interest when he started checking that he was gay on the application.

I'll assume this is because of governmentally-imposed "incentives". I think we can all agree it's none of government's business.

Posted by: Archimedes at December 27, 2024 03:19 PM (xCA6C)

72 to be expected from a former democrat and libertarian.

I doubt this took Trump by surprise.

Posted by: kallisto at December 27, 2024 03:20 PM (dCxaZ)

73 If I have learned only two things in life it's that you can always rely on the Kindness of Strangers and the accuracy of Government Statistics.

Posted by: garrett at December 27, 2024 03:20 PM (j6KoD)

74 Brain dead take from Musk.
The number one issue this election was immigration.
This is like a fireman looking at a burned down house and saying "Ya know what this place needs? A new fireplace!"
Let's deport the millions of illegals first FFS

Posted by: Cmonman at December 27, 2024 03:20 PM (aN71/)

75
I've seen a posting on X questioning home work for kids in school. Do you think, as adults, they might be called on to do work after hours?

During a recent school funding debate I saw a teacher angrily note that some times she has to work after hours to get all her work done and gasp might have to put in more then the nominal 40 hours (I mean its really 24 hours at school but whatever). I mean...what corporate job does NOT require putting in more then 40 hours occasionally (if not often?)

Posted by: 18-1 at December 27, 2024 03:20 PM (oZhjI)

76 I be prouds to annonce thats the Brattleboro city Concil today passed a bill to make Presdent Obama's Burthday a Holliday in are grate city.

August 4 of every yeer will be Barack Obama Day in Brattleboro....

Posted by: Mary Clogginstein from Brattleboro,Vt at December 27, 2024 03:21 PM (A2iSa)

77 link to Nicole Shanahan's post:

https://x.com/nicoleshanahan/status/1872491541811671494

link to Alex's post:

https://x.com/alexthechick/status/1872429169658953868
Posted by: Black Orchid at December 27, 2024 03:15 PM (Pv3Rg)
_______

One of Shanahan's main points was the same I made above: these are mostly low-level jobs that anyone competent in the field can do. They aren't filled by "super talented" people.

Posted by: Elric The Blade at December 27, 2024 03:21 PM (iFTx/)

78 I don't really understand some of the details here but I am enjoying the debate. Great minds, battling it out- and I've got a front row seat.

Posted by: Don Black. Message: Cheetos are key at December 27, 2024 03:21 PM (/7KEl)

79 >>>I know the MAGA answer would be, "Well, just reform the universities!"

No. Since most corporations are leftist to their core, the answer is to incentivize *them* to reform the education system. Instead of allowing them the escape hatch of importing foreign workers, they will have to make reforms here.

Posted by: No Name Today at December 27, 2024 03:21 PM (vlXMQ)

80 In reforming the "universities", I think a good first step, providing an example, would be the establishment of Musk's proposed Texas Institute of Technology and Science.

A rigorous focus on hard-core tech.

Posted by: Duncanthrax at December 27, 2024 03:21 PM (a3Q+t)

81 Think of this like a pro sports team:

That's exactly how I see it actually. These rich cocksuckers want me to build them another stadium, and I propose they eat my unwashed ass instead.

Posted by: bear with asymmetrical balls at December 27, 2024 03:21 PM (XLQLg)

82
This happened at the exact same time, the H1B program was put on steroids. They literally killed the Tech Trade Education industry, and outsourced it. The reason we are short of Engineers? The US Governments education policies of the last 20 years.
Posted by: Romeo13 at December 27, 2024 03:11 PM (QAkQ3)

Pretty much. "Tech" covers a lot of territory, too. One of the challenges of advanced technology development is that in many fields, it changes VERY rapidly. Faster, often MUCH FASTER than an educational system can respond with curriculum and prerequisite course selection. Government, whether state, local, or federal cannot keep up with technical advancements, much less organize an educational system to address personnel requirements. That's why the feds rely so much on "private" industry for the cutting edge stuff.

First step is to eliminate the Department of Education.

Posted by: mrp at December 27, 2024 03:21 PM (rj6Yv)

83 Lots of replies to Elon and Vivek by and about white guys with advanced degrees who could not get a job in tech and ended up joining the military or switching careers entirely. My favorite one was from the mother of a young man with a masters in computer engineering who only got interview interest when he started checking that he was gay on the application.

At one tech company I was at I noticed that only women and minorities were getting promoted. Not that they weren't talented people (generally) but uh...only them?

Then one of my boring white male coworkers decided he was a she and started wearing dresses and bam six months later he, err...she, was promoted.

Posted by: 18-1 at December 27, 2024 03:22 PM (oZhjI)

84 I am sure THOSE are accurate, tho.

Posted by: garrett at December 27, 2024 03:19 PM (j6KoD)

OFFICIALLY, between 2016-2022, it was 1-2%….. which apparently equals 650k-850k overstays ANNUALLY.

How the fuck many visas are we handing out each year??? This is exactly why folks want to reduce legal immigration.

Posted by: BCochran1981 at December 27, 2024 03:22 PM (SncIZ)

85 I be prouds to annonce thats the Brattleboro city Concil today passed a bill to make Presdent Obama's Burthday a Holliday in are grate city.

August 4 of every yeer will be Barack Obama Day in Brattleboro....
Posted by: Mary Clogginstein from Brattleboro,Vt at December 27, 2024 03:21 PM (A2iSa)
_______

Bravo! In my family, we celebrate Obama's birthday on February 30.

Posted by: Elric The Blade at December 27, 2024 03:22 PM (iFTx/)

86 I've thought this should be required reading for parents. Jerry Pournelle had this California Sixth Grade Reader published. It's from the 1920s. It will give you a better idea of how far our educational system has fallen

https://a.co/d/0ALNTq0

Posted by: Notsothoreau at December 27, 2024 03:23 PM (NQtI0)

87 I'm antagonistic to allowing foreignors to live in our country, bring in their socialist and/or barbaric customs, refuse to integrate and learn our language, and advocate and potentially influence anti-American policies. The fact that they take jobs from real Americans is also infuriating. On the other hand, anyone that wants to be an American I am open to welcoming them in. I'm not saying that we can open the doors to all, but if anyone genuinely wants to integrate into our country and our customs/norms, and abide by our rules, I'd love to give them the opportunity. I don't think we are going to harm ourselves by bringing in the brightest, decent, hard-working people in the world who genuinely want to be Americans. That's night and day from the situation we have with open borders today.

Posted by: Mad Max in VA at December 27, 2024 03:23 PM (IORSH)

88 I’m cynical and jaded enough to where I assume the corruption was the point from the start.

Posted by: BCochran1981 at December 27, 2024 03:13 PM (SncIZ)

Corruption is part of the human condition, but structural impediments to its advantage are where it's at.

Free market economies tend to minimize that corruption.

Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo at December 27, 2024 03:23 PM (d9fT1)

89 62 And so the American kid has to move home with his parents and work at starbucks and hate life and capitalism and america and everything else because he did what he was supposed to do and still got fuckd

This is what is actually happening. I know this is not supposed to be how the program works, but it is how it works in practice. The E1 visa is even more corrupt.

it is what is happening

in my experience either they join the military or start getting high and doing minor carpentry jobs
Posted by: Black Orchid at December 27, 2024 03:18 PM (Pv3Rg)

Yup, I have personal experience with this exact sequence... but with the Military now so woke... it can also lead to bad situations. Add in the artificial Rent increases over the last couple of years due to Government funding Apartments for illegals...

And you suddenly may get a clue why my Son is currently living with me.

Posted by: Romeo13 at December 27, 2024 03:23 PM (QAkQ3)

90 Elon recognizes how quickly this country is becoming the movie "Idiocracy".

Posted by: brak at December 27, 2024 03:23 PM (M3GRU)

91 No. Since most corporations are leftist to their core, the answer is to incentivize *them* to reform the education system. Instead of allowing them the escape hatch of importing foreign workers, they will have to make reforms here.

Yep. Ditch the idea of government paying/loaning money for college and look at an apprentice system.

Apple wants a software engineer? Find some college student and pay for his education on the requirement he graduates with a software development degree and then you get him for his first 5 years or something.

Posted by: 18-1 at December 27, 2024 03:24 PM (oZhjI)

92 Most of these H1Bs come in thru a contingent worker program that typically takes about 50% of their pay. They are in fact "slaves with loose chains".
The large companies that contract these H1B's take about half of what they cost to the companies using them....that's the insidious thing, they often cost about the same or even more than a regular domestic FTE, but the contracting company they work for basically owns them. The companies that use them pay for the right to let them go...the difference between what they cost the company and what they are actually paid goes right in the contracting companies pocket....and from there, straight to India, usually.

The H1Bs only get whatever benefits the contracting company gives them.
Officially, they are directed by managers at the contracting company, but reality is that the host companies actually loosely directed these workers, if the list of activities isn't locked in stone. The biggest benefit to the host company is that they can add and subtract workers quickly, without the typical notice periods, severance, and unemployment.
There are two large contracting companies. One covers the Americas, while the other covers Asia and Europe.

Posted by: SMOD, I grew up in a middle-class constellation at December 27, 2024 03:25 PM (RHGPo)

93 If there aren't enough trained Americans, why doesn't Elon found a tech training facility for American workers?
---
Griggs v. Duke Energy:
Tests to determine employment are racist.

So only government schools are allowed to test.

A college degree, because of that, became a proxy for aptitude and training.
It is now neither.

Posted by: People's Hippo Voice at December 27, 2024 03:25 PM (k16hl)

94 I would be careful with this "alexthechick" person.

She gets pretty mouthy, and definitely doesn't know her place.

Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo at December 27, 2024 03:25 PM (d9fT1)

95 The weekend is here

Posted by: Skip at December 27, 2024 03:25 PM (fwDg9)

96 First, even if a reduction in H1Bs caused a shortage of engineers and developers, all it would do is increase the wages of those positions.

Second, it’s not just MAGA voters who want less immigration. Voters routinely poll as wanting no (zero) immigration at all. Of course, if you polled on H1B visas they’d likely be broadly supportive, but not a high priority for most people.

I’m glad Elon’s checks clear but like, does he really think Americans are too lazy to be programmers but are going to pick lettuce? America needs Indian IT workers but not… a third of its farm labor? I think we should stop all immigration but I don’t see how Elon’s position is consistent

Posted by: GrapeDrink at December 27, 2024 03:25 PM (jbPkE)

97 Related and from our previous discussion:

One of the big reasons Universities accept Foreign Students over Domestic Students is the increased tuition paid by those students.

That is a consideration of Profit being made by a Not For-Profit organization.

This doesn't seem like it would be hard to resolve.

I mean...if you want Profit to be your motive, we can Tax you as a business.

Posted by: garrett at December 27, 2024 03:25 PM (j6KoD)

98 350 million people hete and not enough skilled workers?

Posted by: Skip at December 27, 2024 03:26 PM (fwDg9)

99 The Odyssey

If you went to school in the USA or Europe then you should know even though you may have forgotten.
If you grew up and went to school in a non-Western societal milieu then you are excused. You probably know of things that Westerners don't.
If you are coming here as an immigrant I don't expect you to know Western literature off bat.

Posted by: Ciampino - A visitor's visa was hard to get in the 90s at December 27, 2024 03:26 PM (i0xsb)

100 >>One of Shanahan's main points was the same I made above: these are mostly low-level jobs that anyone competent in the field can do. They aren't filled by "super talented" people.

I worked for a Bay Area tech company a long time ago. The company employed 300 - 400 people at locations around the Valley.

The company phone book was a mashup of Asian and Indian names. This is not a new issue and we didn't just hit an engineering crisis last week. Companies brought a lot of this on themselves by loading up on foreign workers which drove a lot of Americans out of the field.

Posted by: JackStraw at December 27, 2024 03:26 PM (LkLld)

101 That is a consideration of Profit being made by a Not For-Profit organization.

Most non-profits exist as a way to funnel money tax free

Posted by: 18-1 at December 27, 2024 03:27 PM (oZhjI)

102 Many high tech companies have work sites offshore. When they schedule a new project they typically will assign 5 offshore workers for every US domestic worker.
The H1Bs that actually get to the US have it a bit better, but are treated like 2nd-class employees. They constantly are working under the shadow of termination, which sends them back home. H1Bs are not allowed to be unemployed while in the US.

An offshore worker typically makes 20%-30% of a US domestic worker.
A H1B typically makes less than 50% of a US domestic worker.

Posted by: SMOD, I grew up in a middle-class constellation at December 27, 2024 03:27 PM (RHGPo)

103 I would be careful with this "alexthechick" person.

She gets pretty mouthy, and definitely doesn't know her place.
Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo at December 27, 2024 03:25 PM (d9fT1)

HEY!

Posted by: alexthechick at December 27, 2024 03:27 PM (1YfKX)

104 Colin Cowherd once said that indian food smells like someone is cooking his garbage.

Posted by: The Herd at December 27, 2024 03:28 PM (R/m4+)

105 What kind of diaper head wog visa does it take to run a toy store of Chinese crap? Like some in Los Angeles?

Posted by: Commissar of Plenty and Lysenkoism in Solidarity with the Struggle at December 27, 2024 03:28 PM (PAa7I)

106 103 I would be careful with this "alexthechick" person.

She gets pretty mouthy, and definitely doesn't know her place.
Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo at December 27, 2024 03:25 PM (d9fT1)

HEY!
Posted by: alexthechick at December 27, 2024 03:27 PM (1YfKX)

=======

Easy to miss in a crowd, though.

Posted by: TheJamesMadison, trying to figure out Joel Schumacher at December 27, 2024 03:28 PM (4LF+x)

107 >>>Yeah, but what about the other side of that equation? The US Citizen who went to college for a computer science degree, went $80,000 in debt to get the degree, and can't afford to live in Silicon Valley on the $75,000 salary that Microsoft is offering?

But 6 friends from India with dubious degrees from dubious universities and no debt can afford to each work at a $75k salary in Silicon Valley and share an apartment.
---

Two assumptions: One, that the $80,000 American has a quality education or knows what to do with it. From the past year's comments at this web site, they don't.
Two, the inverse for the imports, assuming that their degree is dubious and assuming that they have poor mental faculties.

Posted by: Braenyard - some absent friends are more equal than others _ at December 27, 2024 03:28 PM (eY5jv)

108 Then one of my boring white male coworkers decided he was a she and started wearing dresses and bam six months later he, err...she, was promoted.

Yup, I see that too. One co-worker didn't even bother with the Party City wig, they just declared themselves "they/them" and were promoted to management.

Posted by: Ian S. at December 27, 2024 03:28 PM (jbPJz)

109 John Ekdahl@JohnEkdahl
“Knowing about ‘The Odyssey’ is culturally America-centric” is why I’ll never leave this place.

-
Homer's first two seasons were good but what's he done lately?

Posted by: Anonosaurus Wrecks, Now With Peppermint Mocha! at December 27, 2024 03:28 PM (L/fGl)

110 Apple wants a software engineer? Find some college student and pay for his education on the requirement he graduates with a software development degree and then you get him for his first 5 years or something.
Posted by: 18-1 at December 27, 2024 03:24 PM (oZhjI)

We used to do this in American hospitals with nursing and pharmacists. Now we hire foreigners.

As for athletics in schools. I have yet to see a serious overlap between the football and basketball teams and AP Calculus and AP Chemistry. For a very long time we have had both, Musk and Vivek don't seem to get that. Does anyone think that Lebron and Travis chose sports instead of a PhD in Physics?

Posted by: long night ending, dawn in January at December 27, 2024 03:28 PM (2NXcZ)

111 Offshore work is very cutthroat.

10 years ago, I was informed that China had overpriced themselves and all new work was heading to VietNam.

Posted by: SMOD, I grew up in a middle-class constellation at December 27, 2024 03:29 PM (RHGPo)

112 Thanks for the links Black Orchid.

She makes some good points but as always the devil is in the details.

I would very much like for this to become a continuing issue because it's vitally important for a dialogue to start and for people to follow though on reforming the systems involved. But I fear it's just the latest crisis de jure.

DC can easily easily remove a lot of incentives that this system relies on. A deeply human problem as it's a mash up of human nature and economics which pretty much defines politics.

Another thing I see is some of the replies to her posting are just outright lies.

Posted by: pawn, RIP Vic at December 27, 2024 03:29 PM (QB+5g)

113 109 John Ekdahl@JohnEkdahl
“Knowing about ‘The Odyssey’ is culturally America-centric” is why I’ll never leave this place.

-
Homer's first two seasons were good but what's he done lately?
Posted by: Anonosaurus Wrecks, Now With Peppermint Mocha! at December 27, 2024 03:28 PM (L/fGl)

======

I think he leads the Stonecutters now.

I blame him for the rise of Steve Guttenberg.

Posted by: TheJamesMadison, trying to figure out Joel Schumacher at December 27, 2024 03:29 PM (4LF+x)

114 So the 160 IQ super-brains can't apply for "real" citizenship immigration??

Posted by: andycanuck (hovnC) at December 27, 2024 03:29 PM (hovnC)

115 As usual, we've got a problem with a lot of working parts.

Education's gotta be overhauled. If you're blackpilled on that I have nothing to say, but let's just say there are ways to get that ball rolling.

I know too many people put out of tech (or blocked out) to believe the "we need (cheap) foreigners for our tech jobs" argument. It's just the whole "do the jobs Americans won't do (at the substandard wages we want to pay)" crap in another setting and a different shade of brown. I'm down with the whole bit about requiring any imports be paid above-average wages, though, as it's likely to start weeding out at least some of the abuses. It's no magic bullet but it's a start.

Posted by: Brother Tim, Keeper of the Tim Continuum at December 27, 2024 03:29 PM (OUMaO)

116 But who mow the grass for the Cloggensteins?

Posted by: Concerned Citizens of Brattleboro, Vermont at December 27, 2024 03:29 PM (dg+HA)

117 Yup, I see that too. One co-worker didn't even bother with the Party City wig, they just declared themselves "they/them" and were promoted to management.
Posted by: Ian S. at December 27, 2024 03:28 PM (jbPJz)

Worked for Richard Levine, too.

Posted by: long night ending, dawn in January at December 27, 2024 03:29 PM (2NXcZ)

118 Apple wants a software engineer? Find some college student and pay for his education on the requirement he graduates with a software development degree and then you get him for his first 5 years or something.
Posted by: 18-1 at December 27, 2024 03:24 PM (oZhjI)

I like that. Apple has to put some skin in the game here, in the United States.

Microsoft used to boast about how it was setting up tech campi all over the world (but mostly in India) to train the software engineers of the future. Of course, the idea was to sort out the best graduates and ship them here through the H1-b program.

Posted by: mrp at December 27, 2024 03:29 PM (rj6Yv)

119 She gets pretty mouthy, and definitely doesn't know her place.
Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo
---------
Loans CBD the body armor.

Posted by: scampydog at December 27, 2024 03:29 PM (2bFN5)

120 So I guess we're getting ready for a round of "Failure Theater, Immigration Style!"

Posted by: Deja Vu at December 27, 2024 03:30 PM (rS4lG)

121 I could care less if big tech companies can’t get their cheap engineers

Figure out another way, I can’t even recognize my town anymore the whole place has been taken over by people from India

Posted by: Maroon at December 27, 2024 03:30 PM (ZdsyS)

122 I also know, for a long time, that universities idea of a tech degree was just programming. Community Colleges did a better job of training people to do industrialized computer work. The problem was that companies still wanted that stupid degree

Posted by: Notsothoreau at December 27, 2024 03:30 PM (NQtI0)

123 I see a lot of comments here, that the problem is this or not. The common denominator seems to be government.

Not unlike when a wife is slaughtered in a bloody mess. Rather than asking about her online posts, or what her boss is up to, it's not a bad idea to start with "where was the husband."

It's not always the husband, but it's usually the husband.

Posted by: BurtTC at December 27, 2024 03:30 PM (oamft)

124 Unfortunately even the estimable Tom Woods is way off the reservation on the jock culture vs nerd culture battle Vivek stuck his foot into yesterday. He agrees that high schools should value and celebrate their math olympians as much or more than the QB of the football team. I cannot comprehend where this is coming from. Is it more important to be good at math that has value beyond HS than at football? Res ipsa loquitur. Football parents and math olympiad parents both know this. But a football game is a big production that brings together the whole community because it's so much fun. There is no way on this earth that a math olympiad is ever going to replicate that atmosphere. That Vivek and Tom Woods would think it possible just calls their own cognitive abilities into serious question.

Posted by: Oglebay at December 27, 2024 03:30 PM (ogTiX)

125 >>Homer's first two seasons were good but what's he done lately?

Since recording 'Baby On Board'?

Not much.

Posted by: garrett at December 27, 2024 03:30 PM (j6KoD)

126 Moar Muslim rocket scientists!

Posted by: wth at December 27, 2024 03:30 PM (v0R5T)

127 "1 Here we go ...
Posted by: ShainS"

Yeah. I'm bailing on this thread. But first I will say we have about 50 fires to put out.

It's not going to be easy or pleasant.

Nobody has all the perfect answers.

See y'all in the nexty.

Posted by: eleven at December 27, 2024 03:31 PM (iziT8)

128 106 103 I would be careful with this "alexthechick" person.

She gets pretty mouthy, and definitely doesn't know her place.
Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo at December 27, 2024 03:25 PM (d9fT1)

HEY!
Posted by: alexthechick at December 27, 2024 03:27 PM (1YfKX)

=======

Easy to miss in a crowd, though.
Posted by: TheJamesMadison, trying to figure out Joel Schumacher at December 27, 2024 03:28 PM (4LF+x)

Unless she's on her raptor.

https://tinyurl.com/yn6tcpnx

Posted by: Hour of the Wolf at December 27, 2024 03:31 PM (VNX3d)

129 102 Many high tech companies have work sites offshore. When they schedule a new project they typically will assign 5 offshore workers for every US domestic worker.
The H1Bs that actually get to the US have it a bit better, but are treated like 2nd-class employees. They constantly are working under the shadow of termination, which sends them back home. H1Bs are not allowed to be unemployed while in the US.

An offshore worker typically makes 20%-30% of a US domestic worker.
A H1B typically makes less than 50% of a US domestic worker.
Posted by: SMOD, I grew up in a middle-class
---

You just explained the Tuskegee Airman syndrome and why those executives are not named Smith or Ford.

Posted by: Braenyard - some absent friends are more equal than others _ at December 27, 2024 03:31 PM (eY5jv)

130 10 years ago, I was informed that China had overpriced themselves and all new work was heading to VietNam.

There is a lot of stuff moving to Vietnam, but it's more because even Democrats are nervous about China now (except the Biden family and Eric Swalwell).

Posted by: Ian S. at December 27, 2024 03:31 PM (jbPJz)

131 128 Unless she's on her raptor.

https://tinyurl.com/yn6tcpnx
Posted by: Hour of the Wolf at December 27, 2024 03:31 PM (VNX3d)

=======

Even then, shorter than you'd think.

Posted by: TheJamesMadison, trying to figure out Joel Schumacher at December 27, 2024 03:31 PM (4LF+x)

132 H1B engineers are different from illegal vegetable pickers. We need all the talent we can get and the product of their labor benefits us to a large degree.

Posted by: jwest at December 27, 2024 03:31 PM (VP9ao)

133 >>It's not always the husband

The Paolo. He can attest.

Posted by: Paolo at December 27, 2024 03:32 PM (j6KoD)

134 We're too dumb for the high skilled job's and also too lazy for the low skilled job's
Both of which are outsourced foreigners who hate us and send 80% back home.
Really makes you think.

Posted by: Cmonman at December 27, 2024 03:32 PM (aN71/)

135 DOGE was going to be an uphill struggle to begin with, but Elon and Vivek just torpedoed it. Vivek has also ended his political career. They both had multiple opportunities to listen to the arguments and experiences with the system from knowledgeable people and seek to lower the temperature and find some middle ground. Vivek decided to double and triple down on insults, and after a brief flash of sanity Elon followed.

Posted by: Emmett Milbarge at December 27, 2024 03:32 PM (5IFb9)

136 "As for athletics in schools. I have yet to see a serious overlap between the football and basketball teams and AP Calculus and AP Chemistry.

????For a very long time we have had both, Musk and Vivek don't seem to get that. ??????

Does anyone think that Lebron and Travis chose sports instead of a PhD in Physics?"

What planet do you live on exactly?

Posted by: pawn, RIP Vic at December 27, 2024 03:32 PM (QB+5g)

137 Also, OT because it tickles me a bit:

But I fear it's just the latest crisis de jure.

I'm sure you meant du jour ("of the day"), although "crisis by law" would not be an unfair description, either..

Posted by: Brother Tim, Keeper of the Tim Continuum at December 27, 2024 03:32 PM (OUMaO)

138 Two assumptions: One, that the $80,000 American has a quality education or knows what to do with it. From the past year's comments at this web site, they don't.
Two, the inverse for the imports, assuming that their degree is dubious and assuming that they have poor mental faculties.

I read an interesting article about the Chinese ed system recently. It is incredibly competitive, but for most is the only realistic chance at ever having a nice lifestyle. Even so, many of their BandB will finish an advanced education at a very good school and STILL be unable to get a good paying job. We aren't in the 1950's anymore. There are billions of people who are smart, hardworking, and now highly educated, and they want a shot at the American dream. The cream of the crop are the ones Elon is describing. It's hard to see how we exclude them and remain top of the heap.

Posted by: Archimedes at December 27, 2024 03:32 PM (xCA6C)

139 Unless she's on her raptor.

https://tinyurl.com/yn6tcpnx
Posted by: Hour of the Wolf
---

We received no Victory Tits for Trump's win.
A promise unfulfilled.

Posted by: Braenyard - some absent friends are more equal than others _ at December 27, 2024 03:33 PM (eY5jv)

140 So I don't get this, the people that have never heard of the book by Homer think it is an American book? Really? I'm taking crazy pills or something.

Posted by: CaliGirl at December 27, 2024 03:33 PM (DUydn)

141 The Coen brothers made a great movie out of the odyssey.

Posted by: Tom Servo at December 27, 2024 03:33 PM (CT61Q)

142
Unless she's on her raptor.

https://tinyurl.com/yn6tcpnx
Posted by: Hour of the Wolf at December 27, 2024 03:31 PM (VNX3d)

I'll allow it.

Posted by: alexthechick at December 27, 2024 03:33 PM (1YfKX)

143 Posted by: Brother Tim, Keeper of the Tim Continuum at December 27, 2024 03:29 PM (OUMaO)

Yes. And restore and expand gifted programs. The parents who sabotaged these programs, saying "everyone is gifted" need to sit down and STFU. In my suburb it took people a while to realize that the afterschool "cultural programs" attended by immigrant kids, had nothing to do with culture. Russian Math and other groups do not shut out American kids like the Chinese and Indian programs do (some people get to discriminate).

Posted by: long night ending, dawn in January at December 27, 2024 03:33 PM (2NXcZ)

144 Like so many issues, politicians often like to muddy the waters, to make them look deep.

You’ll usually hear some variant of “these are complex issues, there are no simple solutions.”

The fact is, solutions are indeed often very simple. They just aren’t easy. This is why they are there to manage the decline, and reduce or even eliminate any expectation the problem will be addressed.

Standard boilerplate BS with Democrats- “I’ve been to the border”. I guess a photo op is sufficient to assuage American concerns about a non-existent border. “I’ve been to the border!” Well, I guess that covers it.

Legal migration is nearly as corrupt and destructive, but still has support amongst the cluelessly naive.

Posted by: Common Tater at December 27, 2024 03:34 PM (Ojxr+)

145 H1B engineers are different from illegal vegetable pickers. We need all the talent we can get and the product of their labor benefits us to a large degree.

Posted by: jwest

We have plenty of native talent. Folks just don't want to pay for it.

Posted by: Brother Tim, Keeper of the Tim Continuum at December 27, 2024 03:34 PM (OUMaO)

146 >>> The cream of the crop are the ones Elon is describing. It's hard to see how we exclude them and remain top of the heap.
Posted by: Archimedes
---

That's the ticket.

Posted by: Braenyard - some absent friends are more equal than others _ at December 27, 2024 03:34 PM (eY5jv)

147 A dozen years ago, tech managers were already telling me that they targets state school students for internships and hires, because "they're hungry, work their asses off and earn everything they got."

Posted by: Field Marshal Zhukov at December 27, 2024 03:34 PM (wBaIH)

148 Don't know how many times it will be necessary to ad Ramaswamy to browser dictionary before it learns how to spell his name.
Posted by: Braenyard - some absent friends are more equal than others _
......

Ramasalami?

Posted by: wth at December 27, 2024 03:34 PM (v0R5T)

149 Management loves barking just to see you sweat, feel out the ladies see which ones bow.

Posted by: humphreyrobot at December 27, 2024 03:34 PM (2tkXy)

150 108 Yup, I see that too. One co-worker didn't even bother with the Party City wig, they just declared themselves "they/them" and were promoted to management.
Posted by: Ian S. at December 27, 2024 03:28 PM (jbPJz)

How to immunize your workplace against that :

Make sure the troon (even if they're a fake troon)'s boss is in immigrant from a country that doesn't put up with that sort of thing.

Posted by: XTC at December 27, 2024 03:35 PM (UnA8+)

151 Alexthechick makes some good points. I'll add that the same is true in all industries, not just tech. Companies will always seek to gain benefits while avoiding restrictions. They have to. If they don't, their competitors will.

What we're seeing with abuse of H1B -- hiring more compliant foreigners at lower wages than Americans -- is the same thing we're seeing everywhere. Doesn't matter if it's a $150k tech job or a $15k fry-making job.

This won't stop until real enforcement action -- and penalties -- are imposed upon companies that do this.

Posted by: Elric The Blade at December 27, 2024 03:35 PM (iFTx/)

152 Maybe if there wasn't such an incentive to spend billions on coding AI chatbots, another two dozen social media sites and anime pr0n there wouldn't be a shortage of code monkeys.

What, specifically, needs to be coded/programmed right this hot second that is so important that this is even an issue?

After a 35 year career in IT I'm just not getting the urgency here.

Posted by: Martini Farmer at December 27, 2024 03:35 PM (Q4IgG)

153 I have a friend who is a software engineer and he's been looking for work for the better part of the year.

Posted by: Josephistan at December 27, 2024 03:35 PM (y9ksN)

154 Unless she's on her raptor.

https://tinyurl.com/yn6tcpnx
Posted by: Hour of the Wolf at December 27, 2024 03:31 PM (VNX3d)

I'll allow it.
Posted by: alexthechick at December 27, 2024 03:33 PM (1YfKX)

Thank Anna Puma for the work. I'd suggested a war spider, but Anna thought you'd like this better.

Posted by: Hour of the Wolf at December 27, 2024 03:35 PM (VNX3d)

155 I worked for a large software company in Redmond WA, the indian guys are all d*cks and racist as F. they all hate whitey. there, I said it

Posted by: Jay in CDA at December 27, 2024 03:35 PM (F1XbI)

156 I don't really know what the answer is here. I

--------------

Hundreds of STEAM schools (TITS -- Texas Institute of Technology & Science?) funded by Elon & others (including Tech and Venture Capital firms) AND hundreds of vocational schools run by Mike Rowe.

But yeah, that's a 20- to 30-year wait ...

Posted by: ShainS -- Eliminate vast bureaucracies of civil servants, no longer servants and no longer civil at December 27, 2024 03:35 PM (tf+5h)

157
I read an interesting article about the Chinese ed system recently. It is incredibly competitive, but for most is the only realistic chance at ever having a nice lifestyle. Even so, many of their BandB will finish an advanced education at a very good school and STILL be unable to get a good paying job. We aren't in the 1950's anymore. There are billions of people who are smart, hardworking, and now highly educated, and they want a shot at the American dream. The cream of the crop are the ones Elon is describing. It's hard to see how we exclude them and remain top of the heap.
Posted by: Archimedes at December 27, 2024 03:32 PM (xCA6C)

I don't know enough to have an opinion other than I want Americans to get the jobs first but I also want the mental Michael Jordans on our side even if they were born in another country.

Posted by: CaliGirl at December 27, 2024 03:35 PM (DUydn)

158 To pour gas on this fire, the reason this problem is going to be difficult and painful to fix is kinda like trying to fix Social Security:

Too many are too invested in the way it is now and any change that hurts them will be vigorously opposed.

There is no way to fix any of this that is painless.
IF so, it wouldn't need fixed, it'd already be fixed.

Posted by: People's Hippo Voice at December 27, 2024 03:36 PM (k16hl)

159 Two assumptions: One, that the $80,000 American has a quality education or knows what to do with it. From the past year's comments at this web site, they don't.
Two, the inverse for the imports, assuming that their degree is dubious and assuming that they have poor mental faculties.
Posted by: Braenyard - some absent friends are more equal than others _ at December 27, 2024 03:28 PM (eY5jv)

Yeah, I'm seeing a lot of straw on this here thread.

Here, I'll add mine. None of those $80K a year American university graduates want to work in tech.

They want to get in the legal weed business.

And they're all hooked on benzos.

If I were hiring, I'd start with the swarthy brown guy, who doesn't drink or smoke or have an oiled and waxed beard.

Posted by: BurtTC at December 27, 2024 03:36 PM (R/bwg)

160 The cream of the crop are the ones Elon is describing. It's hard to see how we exclude them and remain top of the heap.

Posted by: Archimedes

We have programs other than H1-B for those, legit. The problem is that H1-B doesn't serve that purpose and hasn't for decades.

Deal with the situation we have, not the situation the theory describes.

Or by another wording, "take this sinful world as it is, not as (we) would have it".

Posted by: Brother Tim, Keeper of the Tim Continuum at December 27, 2024 03:36 PM (OUMaO)

161 I have a friend who is a software engineer and he's been looking for work for the better part of the year.
Posted by: Josephistan at December 27, 2024 03:35 PM (y9ksN)

That also applies to some of the commenters here as well.

Posted by: Hour of the Wolf at December 27, 2024 03:37 PM (VNX3d)

162 I remember read in here some years ago from commenters themselves how they were being fired from their IT jobs in favour of H1B and similar imported workers. They even had to train them before being let go.

This is what led to the shortage of tech students. Who would want to spend years getting qualified when the companies prefer cheap imports?

This is not going to end well for Musk and Vivek. They should have stuck to DOGE. Ah well, at least we know now what were their real motivations and it had nothing to do with America or Americans.

Posted by: Decaf at December 27, 2024 03:37 PM (unUNN)

163 I know the MAGA answer would be, "Well, just reform the universities!" But honestly, in reality, is that even possible?
-
Maybe employers need to figure out how to train people rather than assuming every citizen ought to take out the equivalent of a mortgage to get an 'education' that may or may not be useful to some employer, maybe, eventually.

Posted by: Methos at December 27, 2024 03:37 PM (Dnobf)

164 Maybe top American students have better opportunities than engineering?

Posted by: Oglebay at December 27, 2024 03:37 PM (ogTiX)

165 the indian guys are all d*cks and racist as F. they all hate whitey. there, I said it

Preach it!
GASSSSS THEM

Posted by: Commissar of Plenty and Lysenkoism in Solidarity with the Struggle at December 27, 2024 03:37 PM (PAa7I)

166
I'll allow it.
Posted by: alexthechick at December 27, 2024 03:33 PM (1YfKX)

Your thread on X was perfect.

Posted by: CaliGirl at December 27, 2024 03:38 PM (DUydn)

167 Does anyone think that Lebron and Travis chose sports instead of a PhD in Physics?"

pawn rethink this

not because Lebron is some genius but because for white kids now you need a sport to get admitted to the decent universities - there is no room for you without "stellar ECs" which equal being really fucking good at a sport. now right Im talking usually hockey or soccer or lacrosse, and you probably aren't going pro (some of my sons' friends are playing baseball in the minors however) but you need that sport. you're not getting in bc Tanesha is getting in, even tho she probably washes out right quick.

this is reality for even really smart non-DEI kids. and why so many do start deciding to be "non-binary" or whatever. it's the only edge available to them, big time sports, faking native heritage, or grandpa donating a building lol

anyway my kids did homework at 1am after all the EC crap. it was ridiculous and college playing while being a STEM major is also insanely hard. but this is reality for a whole segment of our kids now.

Posted by: Black Orchid at December 27, 2024 03:38 PM (Pv3Rg)

168 There is no way to fix any of this that is painless.
IF so, it wouldn't need fixed, it'd already be fixed.

Posted by: People's Hippo Voice

It's not a question of pain or no pain, it's of who feels it. It would be fixed if it hurt the insiders. Instead it's just us shlubs getting hurt, so fuckit.

Posted by: Brother Tim, Keeper of the Tim Continuum at December 27, 2024 03:38 PM (OUMaO)

169 Unfortunately even the estimable Tom Woods is way off the reservation on the jock culture vs nerd culture battle Vivek stuck his foot into yesterday. He agrees that high schools should value and celebrate their math olympians as much or more than the QB of the football team. I cannot comprehend where this is coming from. Is it more important to be good at math that has value beyond HS than at football?

I have personal experience with this. My daughter's robotics team wanted recognition commensurate with the jocks at the annual awards ceremony at the end of the school year. The principal just couldn't grasp why robotics was important, or at least as important as football. And yes, it is more important to be good at math than football. Both can have value, but math is more important.

Posted by: Archimedes at December 27, 2024 03:38 PM (xCA6C)

170 Great take, ace. Though I'm more hopeful on education and green card reform. I mean, I would be, if someone in Trump world said they would be... He's able to accomplish a lot through pure signaling, as well as creative executive actions. On the education side, I don't see a stick that will drive more technical degrees and less liberal arts + propaganda, but are there carrots in the forms of scholarships, incentives to businesses hiring, etc.?

As for green cards, if we chase off the riff raff and curtail H-1B's to real high salaries, the green card pool would be something we could live with anyway...

Just disappointing Elon & Vivek couldn't couch their calls for higher-skilled immigration with how it's going to be balanced (getting rid of lower- / unskilled immigrants and improving education). Kinda makes it look like their priorities are just their investments after all...

Posted by: bearski at December 27, 2024 03:38 PM (Bhsk7)

171 HEY!
Posted by: alexthechick at December 27, 2024 03:27 PM

Did'ja y'all hear sumpin'?

Posted by: Duncanthrax at December 27, 2024 03:38 PM (a3Q+t)

172 H1B engineers are different from illegal vegetable pickers. We need all the talent we can get and the product of their labor benefits us to a large degree.

Which is why people can pull up dozens of listings for H1B jobs for accountants that pay $30,000 a year. In 2024. That's gotta be approaching below minimum wage.

I've worked in software for 30 years. They don't want the best, they want the most warm bodies for the least money. MBAs don't believe in the Mythical Man-Month.

Posted by: Ian S. at December 27, 2024 03:39 PM (jbPJz)

173 We received no Victory Tits for Trump's win.
A promise unfulfilled.
Posted by: Braenyard - some absent friends are more equal than others _ at December 27, 2024 03:33 PM (eY5jv)

That's a lie.

RETVRN

As promised, VT3

https://tinyurl.com/yhrfkhdz

Posted by: alexthechick at November 06, 2024 02:16 AM (1YfKX)

Posted by: alexthechick at December 27, 2024 03:39 PM (1YfKX)

174 If we let the engineers in, they'll leave perpetual motion machines all over the place.

Posted by: Anonosaurus Wrecks, Now With Peppermint Mocha! at December 27, 2024 03:39 PM (L/fGl)

175 The smart child from a smart family will be advised by his parents that while it's okay for the child to get an engineering degree, STEM is a career dead end - get out of the engineering job asap.

Posted by: Oglebay at December 27, 2024 03:39 PM (ogTiX)

176 start with the swarthy brown guy, who doesn't drink or smoke or have an oiled and waxed beard.

Anchovy paste hair gel.
Think I'm kidding?

Posted by: Commissar of Plenty and Lysenkoism in Solidarity with the Struggle at December 27, 2024 03:40 PM (PAa7I)

177 If India has so many super smart engineers then why are we giving them $5 million to build a 5G wireless platform? Why can't they just put their big brains together and build their own?

>>@RandoLand_us

>>Agency for International Development grant (2023)

>>Amount: $5,000,000

>>Recipient: Qualcomm Technologies Inc

>>Purpose: The objective of this fixed amount award is to prove the viability of the USG’s preferred technology platform for secure and trustworthy alternate 5G (open radio access networks, or Oran), in a large-scale, commercial deployment, using India as the testing ground.

Posted by: JackStraw at December 27, 2024 03:40 PM (LkLld)

178 They hate whites. Fuck them. Where would they be without Rock and Roll?

Posted by: humphreyrobot at December 27, 2024 03:40 PM (2tkXy)

179 "GASSSSS THEM"

Does anyone know what this joke means?

Posted by: eleven at December 27, 2024 03:40 PM (iziT8)

180 Can we force some sort of American Civics on the H1Bs? I mean the real civics that demonstrates the Fundamentals of Liberty and Justice?

A devotion to our country (as founded) should be an essential part of bringing in these masses, especially in influential positions. And why we still bring in China (students or other spies) is another "mystery".

Posted by: illiniwek at December 27, 2024 03:41 PM (Cus5s)

181 Just to be clear, most of these are dumb third-worlders who are coming to the United States to be trained up, and do not want to go back-except on vacation. They think that since their parents loved the Soviet Union, they deserve to learn and work in the United States.

Posted by: wferrin at December 27, 2024 03:41 PM (lCdHU)

182 The company phone book was a mashup of Asian and Indian names. This is not a new issue and we didn't just hit an engineering crisis last week.

Posted by: JackStraw at December 27, 2024 03:26 PM (LkLld)

It goes back at least to the 1980s, and not just industry. UC Berkeley used to be the preeminent public university in the world, and my math TAs (and one CS TA) were all foreigners who barely spoke English.

Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo at December 27, 2024 03:41 PM (d9fT1)

183 The cream of the crop are the ones Elon is describing. It's hard to see how we exclude them and remain top of the heap.

... if that is true they can use a O-1 visa

Posted by: SMOD, I grew up in a middle-class constellation at December 27, 2024 03:41 PM (RHGPo)

184 Odyssey Meme:
classical Captain, standing in front of crew:
“Men,we now undertake our great Odyssey!”
Curious sailor (raises hand): “um excuse me, but what’s an odyssey?”
Captain: “It is an epic voyage, fraught with peril, so much that only your Captain will survive!”
Sailor: “Oh ok. Wait, what?”

Posted by: Tom Servo at December 27, 2024 03:41 PM (CT61Q)

185 https://tinyurl.com/yhrfkhdz

Read that as Viceroy.

Posted by: Commissar of Plenty and Lysenkoism in Solidarity with the Struggle at December 27, 2024 03:42 PM (PAa7I)

186 Does anyone know what this joke means?

Posted by: eleven at December 27, 2024 03:40 PM (iziT

Nope. But apparently Ace does, and he doesn't like it.

Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo at December 27, 2024 03:42 PM (d9fT1)

187 "Maybe top American students have better opportunities than engineering?"

Yeah, like being in upper management at Boeing.

Posted by: pawn, RIP Vic at December 27, 2024 03:42 PM (QB+5g)

188 The ultimate answer is for Trump to outlaw the public education system. States (and even the federal government) can fund individual students with a direct payment to the parent(s). All the parent needs to do to keep control of their child's education is insure they pass a test each year for fundamental skills at that age level. If the child fails, they are retested in 3 weeks and upon failure of that test the parent loses control over the education dollars. An appointed "education trustee" is then put in control of the money.

If the parent can get the kid to learn to the point they pass the test each year and the leftover money can pay for an Escalade, that's ok. Drive with pride. The point is that inner cities are paying between 30K and 40K per pupil per year in the shit system we have now and most of the kids can't read, write or make change for a dollar. When something doesn't work, you change it.

Posted by: jwest at December 27, 2024 03:42 PM (VP9ao)

189 I think it should be fine to bring in H-1Bs to replace CEOs, anyone on the executive board, and all the upper management.

----------------

They have already done that which is why Americans are not their preferred workforce.

Posted by: Decaf at December 27, 2024 03:42 PM (unUNN)

190 #165 GASSSSS THEM

are you crazy? I'm not going to gas indians cause they suck at code and cooking food

Posted by: Jay in CDA at December 27, 2024 03:43 PM (F1XbI)

191 Your thread on X was perfect.
Posted by: CaliGirl at December 27, 2024 03:38 PM (DUydn)

Thank you.

Posted by: alexthechick at December 27, 2024 03:43 PM (1YfKX)

192 Finished reading the Odyssey early this month. Did it in college, but that was 55 years ago. Didn’t appreciate it then but I do now.

Posted by: rocdoctom at December 27, 2024 03:43 PM (nMWCg)

193 We received no Victory Tits for Trump's win.
A promise unfulfilled.
Posted by: Braenyard

Untrue.

I asked, and we were so blessed.

Posted by: Miklos remembers at December 27, 2024 03:43 PM (xesY+)

194 I do think it is all about cheap labor just like unskilled labor and illegals. Sure you have some of those "high level" jobs that are difficult to fill even with international candidates but that is not what most of this is.

And for the "No it's not!" remember Disney hired a bunch of H1Bs and then had their American employees train them as their replacements.

Posted by: buzzion at December 27, 2024 03:43 PM (aRLgQ)

195 That Vivek and Tom Woods would think it possible just calls their own cognitive abilities into serious question.
Posted by: Oglebay at December 27, 2024 03:30 PM (ogTiX)

Are you being sarcastic? I can't tell.

Yes, having high schools that value academics more than athletics would be a good thing.

That there are neanderthals who can't see it, doesn't change the fact. That it won't happen, doesn't change the fact. But the ONLY reason to be mashing a bunch of teenagers together is to give them an education.

Not to throw pig parts up and down grass fields.

Posted by: BurtTC at December 27, 2024 03:43 PM (l7SiO)

196 Nope. But apparently Ace does, and he doesn't like it.

Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo at December 27, 2024 03:42 PM (d9fT1)

Been a while since I’ve been hit with that whiff of ozone…..

Posted by: BCochran1981 at December 27, 2024 03:44 PM (xg2gJ)

197 The cream of the crop are the ones Elon is describing. It's hard to see how we exclude them and remain top of the heap.

Posted by: Archimedes

We have programs other than H1-B for those, legit. The problem is that H1-B doesn't serve that purpose and hasn't for decades.

Deal with the situation we have, not the situation the theory describes.

Or by another wording, "take this sinful world as it is, not as (we) would have it".

We don't disagree that the system must be cleaned up, and in a dramatic way.

Posted by: Archimedes at December 27, 2024 03:44 PM (xCA6C)

198 They have already done that which is why Americans are not their preferred workforce.

Yup, Indians getting in charge and forcing out all of the whites, blacks, and non-Indian Asians is a widely visible practice. Microsoft's even doing it now.

Posted by: Ian S. at December 27, 2024 03:44 PM (jbPJz)

199 UC Berkeley used to be the preeminent public university in the world, and my math TAs (and one CS TA) were all foreigners who barely spoke English.

Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo

... my brother went to Drexel in Philadelphia and had a bunch of foreigners who barely spoke English. He said he really didn't notice it that much until he went to Johns Hopkins for grad school and the professors there actually spoke English.

Posted by: SMOD, I grew up in a middle-class constellation at December 27, 2024 03:44 PM (RHGPo)

200 I don't know enough to have an opinion other than I want Americans to get the jobs first but I also want the mental Michael Jordans on our side even if they were born in another country.
Posted by: CaliGirl at December 27, 2024 03:35 PM (DUydn)

Plenty of the H1-B people are far from Michael Jordan, they're not even Brittney Griner. They're cheap and sorta qualified, but mostly cheap. The Americans they replace which now include Americans of Asian descent, have to train them to get severance.

Kinda makes it look like their priorities are just their investments after all...
Posted by: bearski at December 27, 2024 03:38 PM (Bhsk7)

No kidding. Musk and Gates need more billions. And it's their right to voice their opinions. We don't need to bow.

Posted by: long night ending, dawn in January at December 27, 2024 03:44 PM (2NXcZ)

201 I think it's a reference to what TrumpHitler is going to do to members of the View.

Posted by: wth at December 27, 2024 03:44 PM (v0R5T)

202 172 Which is why people can pull up dozens of listings for H1B jobs for accountants that pay $30,000 a year. In 2024. That's gotta be approaching below minimum wage.

I've worked in software for 30 years. They don't want the best, they want the most warm bodies for the least money. MBAs don't believe in the Mythical Man-Month.
Posted by: Ian S. at December 27, 2024 03:39 PM (jbPJz)

My job only pays that little.

Hence why I would kill to have a chance to be trained to actually do something in tech.

Yes, I know, I didn't do good enough at math in school to deserve it, so I deserve to be on the edge of homelessness. Whatever.

Posted by: XTC at December 27, 2024 03:44 PM (UnA8+)

203 ... my brother went to Drexel in Philadelphia and had a bunch of foreigners who barely spoke English. He said he really didn't notice it that much until he went to Johns Hopkins for grad school and the professors there actually spoke English.

lol Penn is the same

Posted by: Black Orchid at December 27, 2024 03:44 PM (Pv3Rg)

204 Hey alexthechick, you have m blocked on X and I’m a friend!!! I can’t follow you there.

Posted by: Tom Servo at December 27, 2024 03:45 PM (CT61Q)

205 Too many Pakleds.

Posted by: Bertram Cabot, Jr. at December 27, 2024 03:45 PM (63Dwl)

206 If the greatest software engineers are in India, what does that matter if the company where they work is owned by Americans?

Posted by: Oglebay at December 27, 2024 03:45 PM (ogTiX)

207 Hey alexthechick, you have m blocked on X and I’m a friend!!! I can’t follow you there.
Posted by: Tom Servo at December 27, 2024 03:45 PM (CT61Q)

I presume that I got my panties extra twisted. Lemme unban - username plz.

Posted by: alexthechick at December 27, 2024 03:46 PM (1YfKX)

208 Anchovy paste hair gel.
Think I'm kidding?
Posted by: Commissar of Plenty and Lysenkoism in Solidarity with the Struggle at December 27, 2024 03:40 PM (PAa7I)

With gaggles of cats following everywhere they go?

Posted by: BurtTC at December 27, 2024 03:46 PM (vlrwq)

209 The cream of the crop are the ones Elon is describing. It's hard to see how we exclude them and remain top of the heap.

... if that is true they can use a O-1 visa

I think what Elon is saying is to expand that category, regardless of what name you call it.

Posted by: Archimedes at December 27, 2024 03:46 PM (xCA6C)

210 Let's stick a tariff on the H1Bs as well. Let's just see how much its about "We can't find the workers for these jobs here!" rather than "We want to pay people less money, and prevent them from quitting for more."

Posted by: buzzion at December 27, 2024 03:46 PM (aRLgQ)

211 Taiwanese would be a better. Give them jobs.

Posted by: humphreyrobot at December 27, 2024 03:46 PM (2tkXy)

212 i suppose one solution might be to make getting an education less expensive. start by getting rid of the diversity equity something people. starbucks needs people too. get rid of the overpaid profs who teach one course a semester.

ok, i think maybe i go for some leg stretching

Posted by: gnats local 678 at December 27, 2024 03:46 PM (CWTWj)

213 My opinion it's still to import cheap labor

Posted by: Skip at December 27, 2024 03:47 PM (fwDg9)

214 He said he really didn't notice it that much until he went to Johns Hopkins for grad school and the professors there actually spoke English.

Posted by: SMOD, I grew up in a middle-class constellation at December 27, 2024 03:44 PM (RHGPo)

Yup. Lower division class TAs were often foreigners who couldn't communicate. Upper division? Almost never.

Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo at December 27, 2024 03:47 PM (d9fT1)

215 BREAKING: In what has become a weekly routine, the outgoing Biden regime is preparing another $1.25 billion weapons package for Ukraine as they work to push out all available funding before Trump takes office

Posted by: Don Black. Message: Cheetos are key at December 27, 2024 03:47 PM (/7KEl)

216 What happens if we lift the cap on H1B's? Well, the number of H1B spots would then only be limited by the number of job openings. What is to stop every major american company from replacing their employees with foreign workers who are willing to (for a short time) work 60-70 hours a week for less money?

----------------

And that where we part company with billionaires who are now crawling to Trump.

Posted by: Decaf at December 27, 2024 03:47 PM (unUNN)

217 I worked in engineering for decades. Eventually I noticed that there was absolutely ZERO interest in actual technical talent.

When you went looking for a job, the postings were always talking about very specific types of experience that nobody would really have. Basically, they wanted to hire their friends, and would tailor job postings to them.

The emphasis was on "soft skills", which was basically a euphemism for "sucking up", and going out of your way to display your abject loyalty. They wanted you to do the illegal things that would keep the place afloat, while having plausible deniability. They would also have you as a fall guy if things went sideways.

This H1B thing is to flood the market with foreigners that will work for a lot less, and that they have by the cajones.

I'm a fan of Elon Musk, but not on everything.

Posted by: MrExcitement at December 27, 2024 03:47 PM (hOOi9)

218 You are old men who thinks in terms of nations and peoples. There are no nations. There are no peoples. There are no indians. There are no chinese. There are no third worlds. There is no West. There is only one holistic system of systems, one vast and immane, interwoven, interacting, multivariate, multinational dominion of dollars. Petro-dollars, electro-dollars, multi-dollars, reichmarks, rins, rubles, pounds, and shekels. It is the international system of currency which determines the totality of life on this planet. That is the natural order of things today. That is the atomic and subatomic and galactic structure of things today!

Posted by: Vivek Slamalamadingdong And Elon Space Daddy at December 27, 2024 03:47 PM (R/m4+)

219 My job only pays that little.

Hence why I would kill to have a chance to be trained to actually do something in tech.

Yes, I know, I didn't do good enough at math in school to deserve it, so I deserve to be on the edge of homelessness. Whatever.

Posted by: XTC

My degree from the previous century was CompSci. My skill refresher from 17 years ago was Web/IT (was planning on going into the security aspects before things went south). None of it has done me a damn bit of good.

Not. One. Bit.

So here I am at a dead end job with no raise for five years and I'm making $.07 an hour less than I did at another job twenty years ago.

So please. Go ahead with about how Americans don't want to put forth the effort. I want to hear that so. Fucking. Badly.

Posted by: Brother Tim, Keeper of the Tim Continuum at December 27, 2024 03:48 PM (OUMaO)

220 I did interviews of a number of Indians (dot) a few years ago. Every one of them had a computer PHD from some Indian university that I could never find. They could barely speak English which, from experience, caused lots of problems.

I think I one of the dozen or so I interviewed was actually competent.

Posted by: Beartooth at December 27, 2024 03:48 PM (3Ev2O)

221 >Two assumptions: One, that the $80,000 American has a quality education or knows what to do with it. From the past year's comments at this web site, they don't.
Two, the inverse for the imports, assuming that their degree is dubious and assuming that they have poor mental faculties.
Posted by: Braenyard - some absent friends are more equal than others _ at December 27, 2024 03:28 PM (eY5jv)

Yep, Americans are just dumb ass ignorant hicks! Hyuck hyuck!

Sorry, when did "our side" become the America-hating side? Guess the tent got REAL big. Reminds me of the neocon invasion.

Posted by: Dworkin Barimen at December 27, 2024 03:48 PM (nFz4/)

222 Posted by: XTC at December 27, 2024 03:44 PM

XTC, I left you an answer and a resource for your Python plea at the end of the Art Thread (I believe).

Posted by: Duncanthrax at December 27, 2024 03:48 PM (a3Q+t)

223 And for the "No it's not!" remember Disney hired a bunch of H1Bs and then had their American employees train them as their replacements.

This has been going on for years. Older workers in their 50's were having to train their replacements before the jobs were outsourced to India or jobs Kept here and given to foreign nationals because the companies could pay the people from India much less,

Posted by: FenelonSpoke at December 27, 2024 03:48 PM (CudnY)

224 I do think it is all about cheap labor just like unskilled labor and illegals. Sure you have some of those "high level" jobs that are difficult to fill even with international candidates but that is not what most of this is.

And for the "No it's not!" remember Disney hired a bunch of H1Bs and then had their American employees train them as their replacements.
Posted by: buzzion at December 27, 2024 03:43 PM (aRLgQ)

I believe Disney used a different Visa for their employees. Some kind of cultural exchange one. I don't believe cultural exchange employees need to be paid minimum wage.

But, to your larger point, you are right. This is all about cheap and compliant labor. And about pushing older employees out of the workforce and replacing them with young people (who, coincidentally are easily replaceable under visa rules.)

Posted by: Harry Paratestes at December 27, 2024 03:49 PM (uCjyK)

225 By the way, that's where the Turk wound up - Chyna.

Total Coincidence that the US 5G system is 100% compromised by Chinese Intel, I am sure.
Posted by: garrett at December 27, 2024 03:11 PM (j6KoD)

--------------

Yeah, let's bring in more foreigners and show them what we've got so they can sell the knowledge to their real friends.

Posted by: Decaf at December 27, 2024 03:49 PM (unUNN)

226 And the interesting piece who the new VP and possible front runner is and his own background. Trump had someone like that in his last administration; Ben Carson. Pretty sure Trump can see value in trying to have more Americans in these positions.

Posted by: Notsothoreau at December 27, 2024 03:49 PM (NQtI0)

227 Honduran tortilla vendors should just learn to code.

Posted by: wth at December 27, 2024 03:49 PM (v0R5T)

228 I'm with Ace on this (the H-1B visas): I'm stumped.

But there are so many illegals in this country who aren't working under any kind of visa arrangement, or aren't working at all, or are blithely committing vehicular homicide, capital murder and rape, that there's a pretty good pool of deportees to start with, regardless of the H-1B visa situation and its impact on one particular source of immigration.

Posted by: Paco at December 27, 2024 03:49 PM (mADJX)

229 No kidding. Musk and Gates need more billions. And it's their right to voice their opinions. We don't need to bow.

In Musk's case, part of it's that SpaceX expects people to work 80-90 hours a week, and it's much easier to extort 20-something H1Bs who will be deported if they complain. But even they eventually marry bobs and vagene and want kids.

Posted by: Ian S. at December 27, 2024 03:49 PM (jbPJz)

230 >>It goes back at least to the 1980s, and not just industry. UC Berkeley used to be the preeminent public university in the world, and my math TAs (and one CS TA) were all foreigners who barely spoke English.

It's why I'm not that sympathetic to the argument that we just can't find good American talent. Companies have been replacing American workers for less money for years and they helped create this problem.

Here's a thought, why don't some of these tech bros with as much money as Singapore build some engineering schools and train US workers. Musk was talking about starting the Texas Institute of Technology (TIT), well make it so. Many companies used to have training programs. My first job did. Surely they can build a school that will rival the University of Mumbai.

Posted by: JackStraw at December 27, 2024 03:50 PM (LkLld)

231 Note, was not criticizing XTC. I'm in the same boat, just a different bulkhead.

Posted by: Brother Tim, Keeper of the Tim Continuum at December 27, 2024 03:50 PM (OUMaO)

232 I worked as a defense dept. microwave tech in SV and made less per hour than Safeway cashiers.

The green card techs couldn’t qualify for a proper low level “confidential” security clearance, so supervisors would do things like put masking tape over the frequency display on scalar network analyzers, noise meters etc.

Posted by: 13times at December 27, 2024 03:50 PM (Y+fPp)

233 Did'ja y'all hear sumpin'?
Posted by: Duncanthrax at December 27, 2024 03:38 PM
----
Look down.

Further.

There you go!

Posted by: andycanuck (hovnC) at December 27, 2024 03:51 PM (hovnC)

234 Years ago, the gov. had work-study programs to develop new engineers (both males and females) of all types and also physicists. It accepted college students - undergraduate, graduate - and provided part time employment at ever increasing GS pay rates. Upon graduation, they owed the federal government two years of work, at full "journeyman" level positions & higher. A large majority decided to remain with the government following their two years of "obligation." Most were highly competent - and eventually decent managers - throughout their careers.

When OSHA & other agencies were created decades ago, it was not unusual for the gov to offer Masters & certifications for then needed positions of chemists & industrial hygienists in concert with wonder universities, even Harvard for a few.

Many engineering positions were contracted out (see GSA) as they & other jobs changed w/technology, etc. Loads of Masters & PhD degrees also aren't needed so full-time positions, employing tiers of "analysts" & 'technical staff,' were created keeping fed unions happy & bosses butts in seats.

There's PLENTY of technical talent within the nation now. Stop freezing them out.

Posted by: L - Hook him, book him cook him. Now! at December 27, 2024 03:51 PM (NFX2v)

235 If we want to unleash a small army of geniuses on the productive parts of the economy, get rid of the corporate income tax.

Posted by: Oglebay at December 27, 2024 03:51 PM (ogTiX)

236 BREAKING: In what has become a weekly routine, the outgoing Biden regime is preparing another $1.25 billion weapons package for Ukraine as they work to push out all available funding before Trump takes office
Posted by: Don Black. Message: Cheetos are key at December 27, 2024 03:47 PM (/7KEl)

Well yeah. The Russians blew up all our Patriot batteries.

We gotta replace those so the Russians will have something else to blow up.

Posted by: BurtTC at December 27, 2024 03:51 PM (ZYKZP)

237 If the greatest software engineers are in India
.......

why can't they learn to not shit where they bathe?

Posted by: wth at December 27, 2024 03:51 PM (v0R5T)

238 236 BREAKING: In what has become a weekly routine, the outgoing Biden regime is preparing another $1.25 billion weapons package for Ukraine as they work to push out all available funding before Trump takes office
Posted by: Don Black. Message: Cheetos are key at December 27, 2024 03:47 PM (/7KEl)

=======

How many illegals could we deport with that cash?

Posted by: TheJamesMadison, trying to figure out Joel Schumacher at December 27, 2024 03:52 PM (4LF+x)

239 Oh my, was that too mean?

Posted by: wth at December 27, 2024 03:52 PM (v0R5T)

240 NYC DOC will not hand over ICE the bastard that set the woman on fire while she was sleeping on a subway car. The Left actively hates Americans.

Fox News: "Zapeta is a previously deported immigrant from Guatemala who first entered the country in June 2018. Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) told Fox News that it has lodged an immigration detainer with the New York City Department of Corrections for Zapeta, but the corrections department has indicated it will not honor the detainer, per its current policy. An immigration detainer is a request by ICE to take a person into its custody."

Posted by: Altaria Pilgram at December 27, 2024 03:52 PM (Q8Bj8)

241 "...[Elon] wants "super talented engineers" who are willing to work for him for very cheap but work nearly 24/7. His employees famously sleep in their offices (him included) regularly. ..."

Posted by: Harry Paratestes at December 27, 2024 03:05 PM (uCjyK)

Exactly.

Posted by: MrExcitement at December 27, 2024 03:53 PM (hOOi9)

242 How many illegals could we deport with that cash?

Posted by: TheJamesMadison, trying to figure out Joel Schumacher at December 27, 2024 03:52 PM (4LF+x)

Given the efficiency of the federal government? Four, maybe five.

Posted by: BCochran1981 at December 27, 2024 03:53 PM (L7WWq)

243 Sorry, when did "our side" become the America-hating side? Guess the tent got REAL big. Reminds me of the neocon invasion.
Posted by: Dworkin Barimen at December 27, 2024 03:48 PM (nFz4/)

Pathetic isn't it?

As for another commenter's quip about overpaid professors, it's worse than you think. China and India are very good at paying them as "consultants" or taking them on junkets to the nicer parts of their countries and even hiring spouses as "consultants", especially if the spouse is connected to a government agency that will push for Chinese or Indian nationals to intern, even in state positions, but preferably federal. That's how they get into the NSA and other departments.

Posted by: long night ending, dawn in January at December 27, 2024 03:53 PM (2NXcZ)

244 Yeah, let's bring in more foreigners and show them what we've got so they can sell the knowledge to their real friends.
Posted by: Decaf at December 27, 2024 03:49 PM (unUNN)

Just like Oppenheimer.

Posted by: BurtTC at December 27, 2024 03:53 PM (ift3B)

245 BREAKING: In what has become a weekly routine, the outgoing Biden regime is preparing another $1.25 billion weapons package for Ukraine as they work to push out all available funding before Trump takes office

You could do a lot of STEM training with that money.

Posted by: Ian S. at December 27, 2024 03:53 PM (jbPJz)

246 Interviewed and hired a (dot) Indian on a project. Guy shows up for work two weeks later. Can barely operate a computer; team starts talking, saying "this doesn't really look like the guy we interviewed". We call him into a conf. room, re-ask a couple of interview questions, and he 'fesses up that someone else "represented" him during the interviews. We introduced him to the Spanish phrase "Sayonara".

Posted by: Duncanthrax at December 27, 2024 03:53 PM (a3Q+t)

247
It is the international system of currency which determines the totality of life on this planet. That is the natural order of things today. That is the atomic and subatomic and galactic structure of things today!
Posted by: Vivek Slamalamadingdong And Elon Space Daddy

Was that the speech Ned Beatty gave in Network?

Posted by: Bertram Cabot, Jr. at December 27, 2024 03:53 PM (63Dwl)

248 In Musk's case, part of it's that SpaceX expects people to work 80-90 hours a week, and it's much easier to extort 20-something H1Bs who will be deported if they complain. But even they eventually marry bobs and vagene and want kids.
Posted by: Ian S. at December 27, 2024 03:49 PM (jbPJz)

Musk isn't even allowed to hire foreigners for SpaceX due to national security implications. It's for his other operations. He needs lots of skinnies to stand around and pretend to be robots on stage.

Posted by: Emmett Milbarge at December 27, 2024 03:53 PM (5IFb9)

249 240 NYC DOC will not hand over ICE the bastard that set the woman on fire while she was sleeping on a subway car. The Left actively hates Americans.

Fox News: "Zapeta is a previously deported immigrant from Guatemala who first entered the country in June 2018. Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) told Fox News that it has lodged an immigration detainer with the New York City Department of Corrections for Zapeta, but the corrections department has indicated it will not honor the detainer, per its current policy. An immigration detainer is a request by ICE to take a person into its custody."
Posted by: Altaria Pilgram at December 27, 2024 03:52 PM (Q8Bj

======

"It's the policy! I was just following orders!"

Posted by: TheJamesMadison, trying to figure out Joel Schumacher at December 27, 2024 03:54 PM (4LF+x)

250 242 How many illegals could we deport with that cash?

Posted by: TheJamesMadison, trying to figure out Joel Schumacher at December 27, 2024 03:52 PM (4LF+x)

Given the efficiency of the federal government? Four, maybe five.
Posted by: BCochran1981 at December 27, 2024 03:53 PM (L7WWq)

=======

That many?!

Posted by: TheJamesMadison, trying to figure out Joel Schumacher at December 27, 2024 03:54 PM (4LF+x)

251 Patrick Webb @RealPatrickWebb 34m
BREAKING: More than 100 J6 rioters are launching a $50 billion class action lawsuit against the Department of Justice.

Posted by: andycanuck (hovnC) at December 27, 2024 03:54 PM (hovnC)

252 This discussion is no different than the one we use for the "immigrants" we use to pick vegetables. Employers want cheap-ass labor. Citizens want a living wage. Employers would always opt for the cheapest outlay, and if that means paying Indians peanuts, then it does.

In architecture, you need a 5 or 6 year degree to get an entry level job, where you are worked about 60 hours a week for the tiniest of remuneration. You do that for about 5 years, while paying off your loans, and then you get to sit the tests and pay handsomely to do so. You get to study for them in your "off hours." If you pass the tests, you get registered, but your current employer still won't pay you what you are worth, so you have to find a new job in order to still be paid less than an engineer, because nobody knows what an architect does, but when the architect doesn't do the job, even the engineers get cranky. If you work 35 or so years, you might get paid commensurate with your efforts. Tech isn't the only business that eats its young.

Posted by: tcn in AK at December 27, 2024 03:54 PM (K861k)

253 So they're both wrong.

Posted by: DaveA at December 27, 2024 03:54 PM (FhXTo)

254 If these H-1B's are really "super-talented" and "indispensable," then surely you're offering them $150,000+ salaries.

They give out H1B visas to new graduates with Bachelor degrees from State U. Even assuming that the person is, in fact, super talented, there's essentially nothing in their educational background to demonstrate that. Further, given the fact that students from India and China routinely cheat in classes - not all, certainly, but many - that calls even more into question the actual value.

Posted by: I used to have a different nic at December 27, 2024 03:55 PM (ExV1e)

255 Given the efficiency of the federal government? Four, maybe five.
Posted by: BCochran1981 at December 27, 2024 03:53 PM

How about one EV charging station?

Posted by: Peter Bootygig at December 27, 2024 03:55 PM (a3Q+t)

256 251 Patrick Webb @RealPatrickWebb 34m
BREAKING: More than 100 J6 rioters are launching a $50 billion class action lawsuit against the Department of Justice.
Posted by: andycanuck (hovnC) at December 27, 2024 03:54 PM (hovnC)

=======

The target should be the end of qualified immunity and payment from the individual prosecutors themselves, not a payday from the fed.

But whatever. I'm an idealist.

Posted by: TheJamesMadison, trying to figure out Joel Schumacher at December 27, 2024 03:55 PM (4LF+x)

257 James O'Keefe couple weeks ago had a undercover video on a administration minion saying it was like throwing gold bars off the Titanic

Posted by: Skip at December 27, 2024 03:55 PM (fwDg9)

258 222 XTC, I left you an answer and a resource for your Python plea at the end of the Art Thread (I believe).
Posted by: Duncanthrax at December 27, 2024 03:48 PM (a3Q+t)

Thing is, even if I can manage to learn it, I don't expect to be able to find any sort of job. I'm starting extremely late in life for this sort of job, and the market being what it is now.

This is just because I need to prove to pretty much everyone who knows me that I'm not as stupid as they think I am.

Posted by: XTC at December 27, 2024 03:56 PM (UnA8+)

259 How about one EV charging station?

Posted by: Peter Bootygig at December 27, 2024 03:55 PM (a3Q+t)

Technology hasn’t advanced far enough to reduce costs to that level.

Posted by: BCochran1981 at December 27, 2024 03:56 PM (L7WWq)

260 One of my software vendors I have to work with import basically the entire country of India to manage their software and it shows

Literally everything is broken, nothing works right, i cant understand the Hinglish accent shit every time Im in a call with support, bugs take months to get fixed, etc

Meanwhile the company is firing and laying off the american workers that built the software

It's a complete shitshow

even with all that im ok with importing talent to fill jobs THAT CANNOT OTHERWISE be filled by Americans, and not as a vehicle for cheap labor as its being exploited for now. The issue Im seeing is that a lot of these companies are not growing their revenue based on value of product or service, so they simply cut their workforce, hire cheap ass foreign fuckwits and ergo look revenues are awesome and wall street is happy, and the CEO gets his $20 million golden parachute for being a genius.

this cannot go on

Posted by: The Unvaxed and Unmasked Ranger - Now Evaluating the Best Wagshambas of 2024 at December 27, 2024 03:56 PM (T1kZV)

261 NYC DOC will not hand over ICE the bastard that set the woman on fire while she was sleeping on a subway car.

Tom Homan is coming, and it's gonna be fun to watch.

Posted by: Ian S. at December 27, 2024 03:56 PM (jbPJz)

262 >>>24 btw Nicole shanahan has an excellent post covering her thoughts on this on X

thanks, I'm reading it.

Posted by: ace at December 27, 2024 03:57 PM (KRtlO)

263 But what does TayTay think?

Posted by: Most young people at December 27, 2024 03:57 PM (dg+HA)

264 161 I have a friend who is a software engineer and he's been looking for work for the better part of the year.
Posted by: Josephistan at December 27, 2024 03:35 PM (y9ksN)

That also applies to some of the commenters here as well.
Posted by: Hour of the Wolf
---

Article at Wstreet.com said that Everyone is having a hard time finding a job right now. - > let's go Brandon

Posted by: Braenyard - some absent friends are more equal than others _ at December 27, 2024 03:57 PM (eY5jv)

265 The target should be the end of qualified immunity and payment from the individual prosecutors themselves

*********************

You ask for the whole of DOJ getting butt boinked in prison

you'll settle for a sternly worded letter

You'll get Johnson taint licking Hakeem

Posted by: The Unvaxed and Unmasked Ranger - Now Evaluating the Best Wagshambas of 2024 at December 27, 2024 03:58 PM (T1kZV)

266 this cannot go on
Posted by: The Unvaxed and Unmasked Ranger - Now Evaluating the Best Wagshambas of 2024 at December 27, 2024 03:56 PM

I've heard it said that "What can't go on, won't."

Posted by: Duncanthrax at December 27, 2024 03:58 PM (a3Q+t)

267 Legal immigration is f’n evil.

Posted by: Hank at December 27, 2024 03:58 PM (z0jqR)

268 Jack Poso @JackPosobiec 4h
BANNON: “We are not turning the United States of America over to the geeks who are mad they got stuffed in the locker”

Catturd ™ @catturd2 3h
LOL. Only Bannon 😂

Posted by: andycanuck (hovnC) at December 27, 2024 03:58 PM (hovnC)

269 I think there is a big point being missed in these arguments. And that is, most of the engineers from India aren't any smarter than the ones from the US, or anywhere else for that matter. These arguments are being set up like every one of them is a super genius.

To work in America, they have to have good grades and be able to communicate in English, so yeah most of them are kind of smart. I don't work in tech, but I've worked with quite a few engineers from India, and a lot of them just seem pretty f'ing stupid. They like to spout pure theory or textbook stuff, but they couldn't design their way out of a paper bag.

And as far as them needing good grades, who is to say that their education system is any better than ours? Their schools have an incentive to crank out graduates with "good" grades. They get sent to the US and their income gets sent back to India.

Posted by: haffhowershower at December 27, 2024 03:58 PM (NMT5x)

270 this cannot go on
Posted by: The Unvaxed and Unmasked Ranger - Now Evaluating the Best Wagshambas of 2024 at December 27, 2024 03:56 PM (T1kZV)

It will go on as long as the CEO and CFO are making bank. And if the company goes under, they won't care, especially if they can sell off some or all.

Posted by: long night ending, dawn in January at December 27, 2024 03:59 PM (2NXcZ)

271 This is where I mention, like many others have, the ghost job postings.

These are postings for "jobs" that do not exist or that require five years experience in a programming language two weeks old.

That way the employment agency filling the H1B slots can say see! No one qualified applied!

Posted by: alexthechick at December 27, 2024 03:59 PM (1YfKX)

272 Any job that can be automated will be. Accountants? Turbo Tax. Lawyers? Wills online. Coding? AI.

Posted by: Field Marshal Zhukov at December 27, 2024 03:59 PM (wBaIH)

273 I want these companies to be made AMERICAN again. American manufacturing, American employees, American stock owners. And that means they need to be forced to develop "farm teams". Make them hire and train Americans. Hell, make them pay to educate these Americans so the government is paying so much money...
Posted by: 18-1 at December 27, 2024 03:18 PM (oZhjI)

-----------------

See, this is what Trump voters assumed was going to happen when he got in. Stuff this up now and all bets are off.

Posted by: Decaf at December 27, 2024 03:59 PM (unUNN)

274 But what does TayTay think?
Posted by: Most young people at December 27, 2024 03:57 PM

Apparently she's busy moving to the same city that What's-His-Name lives in.

Posted by: Duncanthrax at December 27, 2024 03:59 PM (a3Q+t)

275 I am perfectly fine with expanded H1B visas as long as employers who hire them do not get to write their wages off against their business taxes.
There is no reason to employ "needed foreign workers" in an industry "experiencing a shortfall of labor" at a cheaper wage rate. Let them open companies in foreign lands and let those governments source and import slaves and peon laborers.

Posted by: Kindltot at December 27, 2024 04:00 PM (D7oie)

276 "Keep, ancient lands, your storied pomp!" cries she
With silent lips. "Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"
__________________________________

Soon to be:

"All right, F*ckers...get in a line. Give me your diploma, your references, and your tired portfolio. Anyone with an attitude can whisk their sorry behinds towards that door with the Exit sign. Anyone who corrects my pronunciation of your names, file in right behind them. One more thing; Immigration is not a charity. It is now a selection process."

Posted by: Orson at December 27, 2024 04:00 PM (dIske)

277 And as far as them needing good grades, who is to say that their education system is any better than ours? Their schools have an incentive to crank out graduates with "good" grades. They get sent to the US and their income gets sent back to India.
Posted by: haffhowershower at December 27, 2024 03:58 PM (NMT5x)

And the educational testing services no longer guarantee the safety of their tests.

Posted by: long night ending, dawn in January at December 27, 2024 04:00 PM (2NXcZ)

278 232 I worked as a defense dept. microwave tech in SV and made less per hour than Safeway cashiers.

The green card techs couldn’t qualify for a proper low level “confidential” security clearance, so supervisors would do things like put masking tape over the frequency display on scalar network analyzers, noise meters etc.
Posted by: 13times at December 27, 2024 03:50 PM (Y+fPp)

That's not disturbing or anything.

Posted by: CaliGirl at December 27, 2024 04:00 PM (DUydn)

279 If all they are asking is permission to import the absolute cream of the engineering crop, then each proposed visa recipient should be vetted and certified as a top 10% individual. IQ tests, comprehensive exams, interviews, etc.

Posted by: Oglebay at December 27, 2024 04:00 PM (ogTiX)

280 Damn new age churches!

Maryland man charged with pouring whiskey into holy water during Christmas Eve mass, throwing fruit at congregant

Posted by: Anonosaurus Wrecks, Now With Peppermint Mocha! at December 27, 2024 04:00 PM (L/fGl)

281 Remember back in the old days (before Trump won again) when the Left assured us that immigration was totally a federal thing and no state law or policy could interfere with the wishes of the feds?

Posted by: Wally at December 27, 2024 04:00 PM (PKKgH)

282

I changed my nic for Zapeta. I see no reason for a debate; let it be a learning tool.
----
Yeah, we knew more money would go to the grifting worm as long as J&J still have title. It simply had to be 'dedicated' before it's found Ukraine is responsible for the downed plane.

(Remember, Z took down a plane of POWs within the past year.)

Posted by: L - Hook him, book him, cook him. Now! at December 27, 2024 04:01 PM (NFX2v)

283 IIRC, there were like 6 IIT campuses that produced a product worth anything. After that, it goes downhill fast.

IIT = India Institute of Technology

Posted by: Duncanthrax at December 27, 2024 04:01 PM (a3Q+t)

284 TJM or the new DOJ does what the Deep State DOJ has done since Barky, pled no contest and just pay out to the Jan6 without trial.

Posted by: Skip at December 27, 2024 04:02 PM (fwDg9)

285 =======

The target should be the end of qualified immunity and payment from the individual prosecutors themselves, not a payday from the fed.

But whatever. I'm an idealist.
Posted by: TheJamesMadison,
---

Let the Fed pay it off quick then let the Treasury Dept claw it back from the prosecutors in the same fashion they go after their political enemies.

Posted by: Braenyard - some Absent Friends are more equal than others _ at December 27, 2024 04:02 PM (eY5jv)

286 > More than 100 J6 rioters are launching a $50 billion class action lawsuit against the Department of Justice.
--------
So, in other words, one day's worth of graft for Ukraine.

Math checks out.

Posted by: Martini Farmer at December 27, 2024 04:03 PM (Q4IgG)

287 Howdy y'all!

Been cleaning and cooking and setting the table. Asparagus strudel in the oven (working with phyllo is hell), mushrooms getting happy in beef tallow and red wine, roast is on the counter to come to room temp before throwing in the oven.

I need a drink.

Posted by: nurse ratched at December 27, 2024 04:03 PM (mT+6a)

288 It really is just another play for cheap labor. It has nothing to do with American abilities. I really doubt that these tech giants can't find Americans to do the work. They just don't want to pay them.

Posted by: tcn in AK at December 27, 2024 04:03 PM (K861k)

289 "Yup, Indians getting in charge and forcing out all of the whites, blacks, and non-Indian Asians is a widely visible practice. Microsoft's even doing it now."

We need some new application of the Civil Rights Laws ... on behalf of Americans facing foreign discrimination. (especially white male Christians).

Posted by: illiniwek at December 27, 2024 04:03 PM (Cus5s)

290 If they're not paying to train an American they're not paying enough.

Posted by: DaveA at December 27, 2024 04:03 PM (FhXTo)

291 All right, F*ckers...get in a line. Give me your diploma, your references, and your tired portfolio. Anyone with an attitude can whisk their sorry behinds towards that door with the Exit sign. Anyone who corrects my pronunciation of your names, file in right behind them. One more thing; Immigration is not a charity. It is now a selection process."
Posted by: Orson at December 27, 2024 04:00 PM (dIske)

Give me your hungry, your tired, your poor I'll piss on 'em
That's what the Statue of Bigotry says
Your poor huddled masses
Let's club 'em to death
And get it over with and just dump 'em on the boulevard...

Posted by: Zombie Lou Reed, Pervert at December 27, 2024 04:03 PM (R/m4+)

292 You are old men who thinks in terms of nations and peoples. There are no nations. There are no peoples. There are no indians. There are no chinese. There are no third worlds. There is no West. There is only one holistic system of systems, one vast and immane, interwoven, interacting, multivariate, multinational dominion of dollars. Petro-dollars, electro-dollars, multi-dollars, reichmarks, rins, rubles, pounds, and shekels. It is the international system of currency which determines the totality of life on this planet. That is the natural order of things today. That is the atomic and subatomic and galactic structure of things today!
Posted by: Vivek Slamalamadingdong And Elon Space Daddy at December 27, 2024 03:47 PM (R/m4+)

Are you suggesting that we are meddling with a prime force of nature?

Posted by: Kindltot at December 27, 2024 04:03 PM (D7oie)

293 Every word of this is God's Own Truth:

https://x.com/flinnie/status/1872639473500237848

Posted by: alexthechick at December 27, 2024 04:05 PM (1YfKX)

294 I think there is a big point being missed in these arguments. And that is, most of the engineers from India aren't any smarter than the ones from the US

***********************

Out of all the Indian engineers I have worked with, I can think of only one who wasn't a flaming idiot.

I've also noticed despite them knowing fuck all about anything, they had a tendency to talk down to some of my female coworkers, two of who have a background in proficient computer programming and can run circles around them.

It's a class thing as well, based on what some of the few good Indian people I've worked with have told me, if you get a worker from a lower caste, they have no incentive to improve their skills or the cultural inclination to learn more, because they'll always still be in the same caste. So if if they make mistakes, they don't try to learn from it, etc. It completely fucks up our workflow and forced my team to have to fire people en masse because it was untenable.

Posted by: The Unvaxed and Unmasked Ranger - Now Evaluating the Best Wagshambas of 2024 at December 27, 2024 04:05 PM (sMwSS)

295 The issue Im seeing is that a lot of these companies are not growing their revenue based on value of product or service, so they simply cut their workforce, hire cheap ass foreign fuckwits and ergo look revenues are awesome and wall street is happy, and the CEO gets his $20 million golden parachute for being a genius.

this cannot go on
Posted by: The Unvaxed and Unmasked Ranger - Now Evaluating the Best Wagshambas of 2024 at December 27, 2024 03:56 PM (T1kZV)

This is absolutely true. We've had an extreme collapse of competence across all industries in recent years that coincides with this trend.

Posted by: Harry Paratestes at December 27, 2024 04:05 PM (uCjyK)

296
Article at Wstreet.com said that Everyone is having a hard time finding a job right now. - > let's go Brandon

Biden is handing over the greatest economy of a lifetime!

Posted by: The Joys at December 27, 2024 04:05 PM (63Dwl)

297
I'll never cease to be amazed how fast everyone on Twitter achieves fake expertise on The Issue du Jour.

Today they're ALL fake "experts" on HIV Visas and The Odyssey.

Last week, they all suddenly became fake "experts" on the fake "history" of the Panama Canal.

Posted by: Soothsayer at December 27, 2024 04:05 PM (PTLBM)

298 Are you suggesting that we are meddling with a prime force of nature?
Posted by: Kindltot

Wait. Coconuts migrate?

Posted by: nurse ratched at December 27, 2024 04:05 PM (1Bcgn)

299 Pretty much. "Tech" covers a lot of territory, too. One of the challenges of advanced technology development is that in many fields, it changes VERY rapidly. Faster, often MUCH FASTER than an educational system can respond with curriculum and prerequisite course selection. Government, whether state, local, or federal cannot keep up with technical advancements, much less organize an educational system to address personnel requirements. That's why the feds rely so much on "private" industry for the cutting edge stuff.

First step is to eliminate the Department of Education.
Posted by: mrp at December 27, 2024 03:21 PM (rj6Yv)

-----------------

Yet we assume that India and Pakistan can and do.

Posted by: Decaf at December 27, 2024 04:06 PM (unUNN)

300 But we can't ignore the fact that universities have long been placating students by handing out A's for what is at best C minus or even D-level work.

Also, the vast majority of students in the local state university engineering program are foreigners, immigrants, or children of immigrants.

They're not gender studies majors.

Posted by: The ARC of History! at December 27, 2024 04:06 PM (uxCna)

301 Further, given the fact that students from India and China routinely cheat in classes - not all, certainly, but many - that calls even more into question the actual value.
Posted by: I used to have a different nic at December 27, 2024 03:55 PM (ExV1e)

And the American born profs don't understand what they're saying during the test, so the administration backs the students who talk during the final. Then, the administration has made lots on their admission, some for department, and some for that huge named chairmanship with the extra 300k per annum. They usually have a nice name like the Benjamin Franklin Chair in Engineering or the Good Governance chair...not the Sinochem Chair.

Posted by: long night ending, dawn in January at December 27, 2024 04:06 PM (2NXcZ)

302 This will fry your brain as much as the US currently both funding a ME country's weapons and then sending millions in aid to the people the weapons were used on:

@Oilfield_Rando
My earnings are confiscated to pay telecomms companies to build out India’s cell network so that we can help their high skilled workers come to America and do the jobs I’m too stupid and lazy to do:

@RandoLand_us
Agency for International Development grant (2023)

Amount: $5,000,000

Recipient: Qualcomm Technologies Inc

Purpose: The objective of this fixed amount award is to prove the viability of the USG’s preferred technology platform for secure and trustworthy alternate 5G. . .In the longer term, this success will provide a means to scale up secure and trusted 5G alternatives across Asian markets and potentially beyond them, thereby significantly contributing toward advancing a free and open indo-pacific, the first goal of the U.S. government’s 2022 indo-pacific strategy.

Country: India

Posted by: Lizzy at December 27, 2024 04:07 PM (u1uWe)

303 Sesame Street Seeks New Home, Will Not Be Renewed at Max

Posted by: SMOD at December 27, 2024 04:07 PM (2Yacf)

304 Any job that can be automated will be. Accountants? Turbo Tax. Lawyers? Wills online. Coding? AI.
Posted by: Field Marshal Zhukov at December 27, 2024 03:59 PM (wBaIH)

There already is "AI" software that can do the mundane accounting and bookkeeping. It is replacing the need for entry level accountants regardless if US or Indian origin.

Posted by: Beartooth at December 27, 2024 04:07 PM (3Ev2O)

305 This is absolutely true. We've had an extreme collapse of competence across all industries in recent years that coincides with this trend.
Posted by: Harry Paratestes

You do not want to know how stupid nursing students are. And, upon graduation, they are not much smarter.

Choose the old ones. They may not have the perky boobs and buttocks, but at least they know what they are doing.

Trust me.

Posted by: nurse ratched at December 27, 2024 04:07 PM (1Bcgn)

306 And that's my other issue. We've supposedly had this focus on nothing but STEM. So we have college grads that can't write and don't have critical thinking skills. We need to get out of that mindset. Innovation comes from more than math.

Posted by: Notsothoreau at December 27, 2024 04:08 PM (NQtI0)

307 Kurt Schlichter has a good idea - charge the employer a $50,000 annual fee per H1-B visa.

Employers will pay that for the valuable people - not so much for the junior accountants.

Posted by: The ARC of History! at December 27, 2024 04:08 PM (uxCna)

308
How many thousands of episodes of Sesame fucking Street do we need??

Enough already.

It's the same stupid shit every epsiode. Sesame Street has not tread new ground since 1973.

Posted by: Soothsayer at December 27, 2024 04:08 PM (PTLBM)

309 Today they're ALL fake "experts" on HIV Visas

HIV Visas? I assume those are only for gays.

Posted by: Ian S. at December 27, 2024 04:10 PM (jbPJz)

310 "There's PLENTY of technical talent within the nation now. Stop freezing them out."

PhDs don't usually code and the ones that do (like in STEM) don't do it for other people. That is below them.

Plus they would actually have to work for a living instead of talking.

No one is freezing out anyone other than the tribal behavior noted before. It's a marketplace. People who are valuable are taken care of. Others are commodities.

Posted by: pawn, RIP Vic at December 27, 2024 04:10 PM (QB+5g)

311 https://tinyurl.com/yhrfkhdz

Posted by: alexthechick at November 06, 2024 02:16 AM (1YfKX)
Posted by: alexthechick
-----------

I call. That's an out of date pic. It is not a VT 2024.

Posted by: Braenyard - some Absent Friends are more equal than others _ at December 27, 2024 04:10 PM (eY5jv)

312 Yup, Indians getting in charge and forcing out all of the whites, blacks, and non-Indian Asians is a widely visible practice.

They certainly have that reputation, but since they are not Evil White People, they get away with it.

Posted by: The ARC of History! at December 27, 2024 04:10 PM (uxCna)

313 126 Moar Muslim rocket scientists!

Posted by: wth at December 27, 2024 03:30 PM (v0R5T)
----
Hamas has experts in converting sewer pipes into rockets, even if some hit their own hospital.

Posted by: Ciampino - A visitor's visa overstay at December 27, 2024 04:10 PM (i0xsb)

314
Yeah, yeah, yeah, A-B-C...1-2-fucking 3.

Yeah, we fucking get it.

How many stupid poems and song and skits do we need about our 26-letter alphabet??

How many times are we going to "teach" stupid kids to count to 10? Over 50 years of this bullshit.

Just make ONE 1-hour DVD and be done with this Sesame Street Jobs Program Scam.

Posted by: Soothsayer at December 27, 2024 04:11 PM (PTLBM)

315 Choose the old ones. They may not have the perky boobs and buttocks, but at least they know what they are doing.

Trust me.
Posted by: nurse ratched at December 27, 2024 04:07 PM (1Bcgn)

This is true of every profession. You do not learn your profession in college. You learn it on the job.

Posted by: tcn in AK at December 27, 2024 04:11 PM (K861k)

316 Choose the old ones. They may not have the perky boobs and buttocks, but at least they know what they are doing.

*****************

At this junction I'll be happy to have a nurse that isn't sporting a mustache

Posted by: The Unvaxed and Unmasked Ranger - Now Evaluating the Best Wagshambas of 2024 at December 27, 2024 04:11 PM (sMwSS)

317 >>I've also noticed despite them knowing fuck all about anything, they had a tendency to talk down to some of my female coworkers, two of who have a background in proficient computer programming and can run circles around them.

OMG, yes, I have had the issue working in telecom and at a software company. Some of the biggest chauvinists (and I am no whiny feminist) who will not deign to talk to women, etc.

Posted by: Lizzy at December 27, 2024 04:11 PM (u1uWe)

318 I worked for a Bay Area tech company a long time ago. The company employed 300 - 400 people at locations around the Valley.

The company phone book was a mashup of Asian and Indian names. This is not a new issue and we didn't just hit an engineering crisis last week. Companies brought a lot of this on themselves by loading up on foreign workers which drove a lot of Americans out of the field.
Posted by: JackStraw at December 27, 2024 03:26 PM (LkLld)

------------------

That's how we got here, it became unprofitable to waste time and money studying something that would not get you a job.

Posted by: Decaf at December 27, 2024 04:11 PM (unUNN)

319 Any job that can be automated will be. Accountants? Turbo Tax. Lawyers? Wills online. Coding? AI.

The ability of AI to write code is greatly overhyped. Otherwise imagine how fancy the HQ would be by now.

Posted by: Ian S. at December 27, 2024 04:11 PM (jbPJz)

320 Kurt Schlichter has a good idea - charge the employer a $50,000 annual fee per H1-B visa.

Employers will pay that for the valuable people - not so much for the junior accountants.
Posted by: The ARC of History!
---------
The Aussies have a charge type of system, I think.

Posted by: scampydog at December 27, 2024 04:11 PM (2bFN5)

321 254 ...
They give out H1B visas to new graduates with Bachelor degrees from State U. Even assuming that the person is, in fact, super talented, there's essentially nothing in their educational background to demonstrate that. Further, given the fact that students from India and China routinely cheat in classes - not all, certainly, but many - that calls even more into question the actual value.
Posted by: I used to have a different nic at December 27, 2024 03:55 PM (ExV1e)

Where my daughter went to school (SUNY Buffalo), most of the graduate students were from India. Some were also from China. White people - especially white girls were practically unheard of, yet they didn't give her any sort of special deal in the name of "diversity".

On one project, her Indian partner took off to go shopping, leaving my daughter to do the work. Which was just as well, in a way - I don't think this partner was very competent.

I think SUNY Buffalo gets tons of money from foreign students, then Silicon Valley hires them and make tons of money off of them. It's quite the racket.

Supposedly, we have state colleges to educate our own population, and make them more productive and valuable.

Posted by: MrExcitement at December 27, 2024 04:12 PM (hOOi9)

322 American companies faced education system gaps in the past. And they developed their own training.

I have to believe it could be done again.

Posted by: 2009Refugee at December 27, 2024 04:12 PM (8AONa)

323 >>HIV Visas?

Back in the late 80s, that's what they called Lakers Tickets.

Posted by: garrett at December 27, 2024 04:13 PM (j6KoD)

324 Meanwhile, in D.C. . .

This DC restaurant has a water menu featuring bottles up to $95
. . . .
A Michelin-starred restaurant in Washington D.C. has unveiled a luxury ‘water menu' that features a $95 bottle of melted water from a Canadian iceberg.

The ‘water menu' at The Inn at Little Washington, which has three Michelin stars, features different drinking options from glaciers and water sources around the world, as reported by Eater.
The menu features 25 different waters, from Finland to New Zealand. The menu also includes some American options, such as California and Texas.
. . . .
[W]e're going to have about 25 waters and a water menu … These waters are so unique. Some are from underground glaciers that are 3,000 years old. They've never been in contact with the air. The varieties, tastes, and textures of these waters are absolutely fascinating.

Posted by: Anonosaurus Wrecks, Now With Peppermint Mocha! at December 27, 2024 04:13 PM (L/fGl)

325 The only people who support importing 85k+ foreigners per year to take US jobs are so wealthy that they aren't affected by it and/or childless weirdos.

Posted by: VAR1ABLE at December 27, 2024 04:13 PM (dab9h)

326 Every word of this is God's Own Truth:

https://x.com/flinnie/status/1872639473500237848
Posted by: alexthechick

Binge eating disorder hidden behind a wall of anxiety disorder

Posted by: Doogie Howser, M.D. at December 27, 2024 04:13 PM (v0R5T)

327 nood pronouns

Posted by: Harry Paratestes at December 27, 2024 04:13 PM (uCjyK)

328 No one is freezing out anyone other than the tribal behavior noted before. It's a marketplace. People who are valuable are taken care of. Others are commodities.

Posted by: pawn, RIP Vic at December 27, 2024 04:10 PM (QB+5g)

Sure they are. They don't want to pay American wages. So they don't. They hire folks on visas that give them leverage to work them 60 or more hours per week for peanuts. They are effectively killing off the market for American workers.

Posted by: tcn in AK at December 27, 2024 04:14 PM (K861k)

329 Scott Adams @ScottAdamsSays 3h
The foreign workers debate on X has been great.

We fight. We learn something. We correct course. Trump watches and absorbs.

And we did it by entertaining ourselves and getting smarter at the same time.

America’s Golden Age.

Posted by: andycanuck (hovnC) at December 27, 2024 04:14 PM (hovnC)

330
btw, enough with the AI and "tech" shit.

We need to train people to dig ditches, use a tape ruler, know the meaning of "plumb" and "square," basic electrical theory, etc.

Posted by: Soothsayer at December 27, 2024 04:14 PM (PTLBM)

331 322 American companies faced education system gaps in the past. And they developed their own training.

I have to believe it could be done again.
Posted by: 2009Refugee at December 27, 2024 04:12 PM (8AONa)

Sure, but training people for entry-level would break the illusion of "cut-throat meritocracy, where only the best of the best compete and make it".

Which, let's be clear, is 99% of the time merely an illusion.

Posted by: XTC at December 27, 2024 04:14 PM (UnA8+)

332 198 Yup, Indians getting in charge and forcing out all of the whites, blacks, and non-Indian Asians is a widely visible practice.

Friend's husband pointed that out at one company he worked at. Got screeched at by the Indians until he yelled back that he spent a few years in their country and saw it first hand.

Posted by: NR Pax at December 27, 2024 04:14 PM (lXCUP)

333 Wait. Coconuts migrate?
Posted by: nurse ratched at December 27, 2024 04:05 PM

From the tree to the beach, yes.

Posted by: Kamala's Mom at December 27, 2024 04:15 PM (a3Q+t)

334 This is just because I need to prove to pretty much everyone who knows me that I'm not as stupid as they think I am.

Posted by: XTC

As I told an old friend of mine once, spite's a helluva motivator. Godspeed!

Posted by: Brother Tim, Keeper of the Tim Continuum at December 27, 2024 04:15 PM (OUMaO)

335 It's a class thing as well,

-------------------------------------

Yes, there is so much more than just the grades. Most of them really do have contempt for America and Americans. Shit can them all.
Out of all of them I've worked around and with, there are only two that I don't put in the same category. One is a Sikh and the other a Roman Catholic. The Sikh is a 'gooder' good ol' boy than most US-born dudes, and the Catholic is such a nice guy with a big heart. He is good to everyone. And he is pretty based to boot.

Posted by: haffhowershower at December 27, 2024 04:15 PM (NMT5x)

336 a lot of them just ~~seem~~ pretty f'ing stupid. They like to spout pure theory or textbook stuff, but they couldn't design their way out of a paper bag.

They are nearly 99% extremely fucking stupid. Barely functioning near our own 4th grade stem class. 8f we could just not hire these damned foreigners, and force the u.s. companies to hire Americans, the problem woukd resolve itself.

Posted by: BifBewalski at December 27, 2024 04:15 PM (MsrgL)

337 "I think SUNY Buffalo gets tons of money from foreign students, then Silicon Valley hires them and make tons of money off of them. It's quite the racket.

Supposedly, we have state colleges to educate our own population, and make them more productive and valuable."
Posted by: MrExcitement at December 27, 2024 04:12 PM (hOOi9)

Good points.

Posted by: VAR1ABLE at December 27, 2024 04:15 PM (dab9h)

338 Wait. Coconuts migrate?
Posted by: nurse ratched

Sister, I could tell ya...

Posted by: Swallow of uncertain origin at December 27, 2024 04:16 PM (OUMaO)

339 This is stupid

Posted by: N at December 27, 2024 04:17 PM (A5Qvk)

340 I know the MAGA answer would be, "Well, just reform the universities!"

Your FIRST mistake is assuming that a college degree makes a software engineer. That "college" myth has been operative for nearly 60 years and--in almost all cases--is demonstrably false.

Some fundamentals in tech school combined with a very good apprentice program..........cheaper AND better!!

Posted by: dad29 at December 27, 2024 04:18 PM (x/jEt)

341 This is not even a top 10 thing to worry over now

Posted by: N at December 27, 2024 04:18 PM (A5Qvk)

342 Sure, but training people for entry-level would break the illusion of "cut-throat meritocracy, where only the best of the best compete and make it".

I'd just be happy to see "entry level" that didn't require senior experience. Job hunting's a shitshow these days.

Posted by: Swallow of uncertain origin at December 27, 2024 04:18 PM (OUMaO)

343 Sock deported.

Posted by: Brother Tim, Keeper of the Tim Continuum at December 27, 2024 04:18 PM (OUMaO)

344 I call. That's an out of date pic. It is not a VT 2024.

Posted by: Braenyard - some Absent Friends are more equal than others _ at December 27, 2024 04:10 PM (eY5jv)

You may think you're being funny.

You aren't.

I took that election night.

I am going to suggest, not even a little bit politely, that you do not call me a fucking liar.

Posted by: alexthechick at December 27, 2024 04:18 PM (1YfKX)

345 DOGE was going to be an uphill struggle to begin with, but Elon and Vivek just torpedoed it. Vivek has also ended his political career. They both had multiple opportunities to listen to the arguments and experiences with the system from knowledgeable people and seek to lower the temperature and find some middle ground. Vivek decided to double and triple down on insults, and after a brief flash of sanity Elon followed.
Posted by: Emmett Milbarge at December 27, 2024 03:32 PM (5IFb9)

-------------------

At least now Democrats will love them again.

Posted by: Decaf at December 27, 2024 04:19 PM (unUNN)

346 You may think you're being funny.

You aren't.

I took that election night.

I am going to suggest, not even a little bit politely, that you do not call me a fucking liar.
Posted by: alexthechick
-------------------

It's the same top.

Posted by: Braenyard - some Absent Friends are more equal than others _ at December 27, 2024 04:20 PM (eY5jv)

347 It will go on as long as the CEO and CFO are making bank. And if the company goes under, they won't care, especially if they can sell off some or all.
Posted by: long night ending, dawn in January at December 27, 2024 03:59 PM (2NXcZ)

Not quite. Low interest rates makes buying companies easy, and if an investor decides to asset strip and then sell the gutted company off to stupid but enthusiastic buyers who will watch it collapse and go out of business in exchange for their hard earned cash, it is a really good way to improve the value of the other companies you are still actively stripping and about to put on the market, since companies with few competitors look like an even better deal

Posted by: Kindltot at December 27, 2024 04:21 PM (D7oie)

348 It's the same top.
Posted by: Braenyard - some Absent Friends are more equal than others _ at December 27, 2024 04:20 PM (eY5jv)

Nice. Double down on calling me a liar.

Go to hell.

Posted by: alexthechick at December 27, 2024 04:22 PM (1YfKX)

349 I have worked with 100’s of H1Bs over the last 30 years. They often have fake credentials that are never verified. Employers like them because they are trapped so investing in training has better payoff that training non-H1Bs.

Posted by: Bang-a-gong at December 27, 2024 04:22 PM (SRiFu)

350 H1B engineers are different from illegal vegetable pickers. We need all the talent we can get and the product of their labor benefits us to a large degree.

Posted by: jwest

We have plenty of native talent. Folks just don't want to pay for it.
Posted by: Brother Tim, Keeper of the Tim Continuum at December 27, 2024 03:34 PM (OUMaO)

-----------------

It's always been about the money, them keeping it rather than paying workers fairly.

Posted by: Decaf at December 27, 2024 04:23 PM (unUNN)

351 You're right, but it is the same top.
You look as good as ever.

https://tinyurl.com/y2asu5ed

Posted by: Braenyard - some Absent Friends are more equal than others _ at December 27, 2024 04:23 PM (eY5jv)

352 "Sure they are. They don't want to pay American wages. So they don't. They hire folks on visas that give them leverage to work them 60 or more hours per week for peanuts. They are effectively killing off the market for American workers."

You saying that over-educated white collar government sector employees are being frozen out of coding and other low level engineering jobs?

They would never stoop to even considering them let alone that they, on a whole are unqualified.

Posted by: pawn, RIP Vic at December 27, 2024 04:25 PM (QB+5g)

353 A long time ago at a certain very large tech company that has since broken into pieces. In fact, the largest tech company on the NYE. I worked as a MTS (Member of Technical Staff). This was the term for EVERYONE who had a Master's Degree and did tech stuff (as opposed to management which went by the more traditional names). If you had less than a MD you were called something else, like MTS-1 (MTS minus 1). In any case, this company hired a LOT of Not Born in the US persons. They got the best and we were pretty much all paid in the same pay bands. It has been a long time, and things may have changed, but I do wonder how much the NBinUS are actually taken advantage of. I get where Mr. Musk is coming from, as I saw exactly what he described, even a long time ago. As long as the management of the company actually wants to Do Great Stuff, one of the biggest hindrances to that will be the lack of folks motivated to Do Great Stuff. The motivation aspect is very real. I worked at other places after the Big Company and saw that too.

Posted by: B at December 27, 2024 04:26 PM (XsyPS)

354 Geez - I had a young engineer come ask me (because I had a reputation for being one of the few there who was actually good at math) how he could get a different answer instead of what the quadratic formula (solves a second order polynomial) was giving him.

He apparently never learned that the math gives you THE answer, and that answer is the answer, whether you like it or not.

I said the fact that he wasn't getting a real number (vs a complex one) was telling him that he was doing something wrong.

Turned out, he was looking for where the slope of his 3rd order polynomial went to zero to find a maximum or minimum. That's fine, but it was only defined for an interval. In that case, sometimes the max or min is at an endpoint, and not where the slope is zero.

I doubt anybody ever thought about firing that guy for being incompetent, and they sure didn't do anything for me for being the competent one.

Posted by: MrExcitement at December 27, 2024 04:27 PM (hOOi9)

355 348 It's the same top.
Posted by: Braenyard - some Absent Friends are more equal than others _ at December 27, 2024 04:20 PM (eY5jv)
Nice. Double down on calling me a liar.
Go to hell.
Posted by: alexthechick at December 27, 2024 04:22 PM (1YfKX)

Nobody cares, just post your linktree already.

Posted by: VAR1ABLE at December 27, 2024 04:30 PM (dab9h)

356 Disagreement and debate is good.

Posted by: steevy at December 27, 2024 04:32 PM (KQk9m)

357 "...As long as the management of the company actually wants to Do Great Stuff, one of the biggest hindrances to that will be the lack of folks motivated to Do Great Stuff. The motivation aspect is very real. I worked at other places after the Big Company and saw that too.
Posted by: B at December 27, 2024 04:26 PM (XsyPS)"

WTF?

1) I have yet to experience management that "actually wants to Do Great Stuff", although they always huff and puff that happy story.

2) If they were competent managers, their employees WOULD be motivated to Do Great Stuff. That is actually the normal mode for engineers. If they're not, then it's because they have been actively undermined for a very long time, or because they're incompetent sycophants who really aren't there to do a good job anyway.

Posted by: MrExcitement at December 27, 2024 04:33 PM (hOOi9)

358
"After all is said and done, more is said than done"

Posted by: pawn, RIP Vic at December 27, 2024 04:34 PM (QB+5g)

359 He wants "super talented engineers" who are willing to work for him for very cheap but work nearly 24/7. His employees famously sleep in their offices (him included) regularly.

I've done this. Not for him, but I've done it many times. Know what it got me? Replaced by a handful of Indians.

Posted by: resist_we_much at December 27, 2024 05:26 PM (cpys8)

360 Vivek took over Mommy’s Big Pharma company, which was based on a fraudulent product. He then signed a contract with DARPA to build another fraudulent product: the Nano Lipid Clot Shot, which killed and maimed many Americans.

He then sold his shares to State Street and Vanguard at inflated prices, as if the Deep State were funding him. And then he used the money for his campaign, inserted into the primaries as a younger MAGA alternative to PDT.

I’m not interested in a word he says.

Posted by: The Gipper Lives at December 27, 2024 05:46 PM (I/vJL)

361 Even if Americans are dumb and lazy and entitled, they are still....wait for it....Americans.

My kin.

Want Americans to be smarter and harder working? Pay them more.

What if we slip behind another nation as the richest?

So?

I mean, yeah, its kinda important, but more important is that we are still American.

Elon Musk and Ramaswamy are useful tools when they do useful things, but the instant they are not useful.....bye. Musk is not American. At least he's White. Ramaswamy is not either. So they are not leaders, they are useful gunslingers. I'm willing to accep them back if they get back on track, but if not, well, we can 'import other smarter, harder working with better culture' 'leaders' to replace them.

Posted by: Eric2 at December 27, 2024 05:49 PM (hSVY4)

362 This is one of the reasons I don’t care if CEOs of large corporations get the UHC treatment.

They will do anything for a buck, including throwing millions of Americans into poverty.

Posted by: MAGA_Ken at December 27, 2024 06:12 PM (Vh9CX)

363 None of this addresses another problem that is rampant in IT. Large corporations are increasingly getting rid of American workers, app dev, platform, engineering, support , etc and simply hiring replacement workers nearshore an offshore.

One of the solutions there of course would be that there are certain industries that should be primarily staffed by American workers, banks, healthcare, and anything related to data that is considered PHI or PII in this country.

It’s ridiculous that companies are cutting the bottom line by hiring people overseas at a third the rate that they pay American workers while simultaneously firing all the domestic staff..

Posted by: Reality at December 27, 2024 06:26 PM (EvviM)

364 Is it ridiculous to suggest that if these imported workers are so vital to the economy that they should be free to change employers once they get here? They would still be contributing without being forced into serfdom.

Posted by: Grump928(C) at December 27, 2024 07:44 PM (aD39U)

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be taking a look for. You have ended my four day long hunt!

God Bless you man. Haｖe a nice day. Bye

Posted by: disgraced at December 27, 2024 09:37 PM (GIfdY)

366 On an LNG project in South America an albatross got to hanging around the job site. This prompted a discussion among Americans, Canadians, Peruvians, Indians, Columbians, Venezuelans and probably a few more nationalities about Coleridge's Rime of the Ancient Mariner. Everybody had read it back in school.

The Left just cannot abide greatness.

Posted by: LCMS Rulz! at December 27, 2024 09:39 PM (bufu1)

367 For example, during Melania Trump's time as a H-1B visa holder, she was limited to one year increments, which was the maximum time allowed then per H-1B visa for citizens of Slovenia. Melania Trump became a citizen in 2006.

Posted by: SMOD at December 27, 2024 10:13 PM (GITLP)

368 If they're hiring foreigners because they're cheaper, fuck that shit.

If they're hiring foreigners because the American public school system is producing high school kids who can't read, and American Universities are turning out entitled DEI hires who are completely worthless and want to be paid 7 figures right out of school, I got zero fucks to give.

When I worked at Boeing ( on the Defense side) we had a few female new-hire engineers who could not have engineered a paper airplane. Whether they got hired because they had Hispanic last names or big tits remains a mystery to us all, but it was not based on their superior knowledge of the field.

Posted by: Tammy-al Thor at December 27, 2024 10:55 PM (Vvh2V)

369 It's going to be finish of mine day, however before ending I am reading
this impressive piece of writing to increase my know-how.

Posted by: 101 lottery at December 28, 2024 12:24 AM (a4Oy/)

370 Here's something I don't see asked or answered ?

How many of these coding jobs really have to exist in the USA. Assuming there are no americans that can do these jobs, how many can be done remotely offshore rather than bring in what are most likely medium skilled coders at best ?

Posted by: LordAzrael at December 29, 2024 04:29 AM (58YUq)

371 This is a coordinated op to fracture MAGA. Everyone knows H1B's are a corporate scam to reduce labor costs and it is out of control on purpose. O-1 visa's are for the true geniuses.

Posted by: Danimal28 at December 29, 2024 09:06 AM (nT4HF)

372 Hi there, I enjoy reading all of your article.
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Posted by: trik slot online at January 01, 2025 05:06 AM (VkV6A)

373 Outstanding quest there. What occurred after? Thanks!

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