Memorial Day Flashback: The Fall of Falaise

The fall of the "Falaise pocket" was the final blow in the Battle of Normandy.

The Falaise pocket or battle of the Falaise pocket (German: Kessel von Falaise; 12--21 August 1944) was the decisive engagement of the Battle of Normandy in the Second World War. Allied forces formed a pocket around Falaise, Calvados, in which German Army Group B, consisting of the 7th Army and the Fifth Panzer Army (formerly Panzergruppe West), were encircled by the Western Allies. The battle resulted in the destruction of most of Army Group B west of the Seine, which opened the way to Paris and the Franco-German border.

Here's a short film about "The Fall of Falaise" from 1944.

Posted by: Disinformation Expert Ace at 01:28 PM

Comments

(Jump to bottom of comments)

1 I'll get them.

Posted by: andycanuck (ZdexC) at May 27, 2024 01:30 PM (ZdexC)

2 The beginning of the end.

Posted by: Biden's Dog sniffs a whole lotta malarkey, at May 27, 2024 01:30 PM (tbAq/)

3 The Falaise Pocket is much less well known than its sister battle, the Falaise handbag.

Posted by: Archimedes at May 27, 2024 01:32 PM (CsUN+)

4 I used the exact strategy in the 3rd grade during recess.

Posted by: Humphreyrobot at May 27, 2024 01:32 PM (J8LnB)

5 If only we had that kind of military and leaders today.

Posted by: Eromero at May 27, 2024 01:33 PM (o2ZRX)

6 I used the exact strategy in the 3rd grade during recess.
Posted by: Humphreyrobot at May 27, 2024 01:32 PM (J8LnB)
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Allied or German?

Posted by: Captain Obvious, Laird o' the Sea, Radioactive Knight at May 27, 2024 01:34 PM (mUnoX)

7
Beau died that day after overtaking a German pillbox and swallowing all the pills.

Posted by: Divide by Zero at May 27, 2024 01:36 PM (RKVpM)

8 I used the exact strategy in the 3rd grade during recess.
Posted by: Humphreyrobot at May 27, 2024 01:32 PM

The Triple-Dog Dare?

Posted by: Ralphie at May 27, 2024 01:37 PM (a3Q+t)

9 ***Here's a short film about "The Fall of Falaise" from 1944.***

That and the corridor of death for the Iraqis is a precedent for Netanyahu.

Posted by: Braenyard at May 27, 2024 01:37 PM (fkuu7)

10 Is that an 88 in your pocket, or are you just happy to see me?

Posted by: some 1st Army tanker at May 27, 2024 01:37 PM (OguvZ)

11 Battleground is my favorite WW2 movie for it’s ending alone.

Posted by: polynikes at May 27, 2024 01:37 PM (SHMXB)

12 At what point in the Battle of Falaise was Beau Biden killed?

Posted by: Bulgaroctonus at May 27, 2024 01:37 PM (v6JzV)

13 Allied, Germany?
I'm not sure but a pretty girl who flashed me her panties on the monkey bars gave me a kiss afterwards.

Posted by: Humphreyrobot at May 27, 2024 01:37 PM (J8LnB)

14 The trap took time to close, at least lots of equipment didn't get out

Posted by: Skip at May 27, 2024 01:37 PM (fwDg9)

15 I would say Battleground is in my tip 10 war movies

Posted by: Skip at May 27, 2024 01:38 PM (fwDg9)

16 I'll take care of SS POWs . . .

Posted by: Lt Spiers at May 27, 2024 01:38 PM (6gW4D)

17 12 At what point in the Battle of Falaise was Beau Biden killed?
Posted by: Bulgaroctonus
--------------------------------

Just before he entered the heavy brush.

Posted by: Braenyard at May 27, 2024 01:38 PM (fkuu7)

18 If only we had that kind of military and leaders today.
Posted by: Eromero at May 27, 2024 01:33 PM

To be fair, we're much more fabulous!

Posted by: Milley Vanilley at May 27, 2024 01:39 PM (a3Q+t)

19 7 Damn, DbZ beat me to a Beau quip.

Posted by: Bulgaroctonus at May 27, 2024 01:39 PM (v6JzV)

20 3 McDonald's commemorated this historical event with the launch of their Falaise O' Fish sandwich.

Posted by: callsign claymore at May 27, 2024 01:41 PM (y1+VJ)

21 Damn, DbZ beat me to a Beau quip.
Posted by: Bulgaroctonus at May 27, 2024 01:39 PM

Many seek the Beau coup, but only one scores.

Posted by: Duncanthrax at May 27, 2024 01:41 PM (a3Q+t)

22 Thank you, Ace. Thanks a lot.

Posted by: L - If they do it with you, they'll do it to you, too at May 27, 2024 01:42 PM (NFX2v)

23 Didn't the Allies miss out on capturing another 200K Germans because they hesitated? Particularly Monty?

Posted by: G'rump928(c) at May 27, 2024 01:42 PM (aD39U)

24 Tom Servo

On Egypt losing a soldier in a fire fight with IDF soldiers. This is a worry-some event. Was he that guy who did not get the date and time right?

Sure would be a shame if Egyptian warheads strike Palestinian refugee camps in an attempt to frame the IDF.

Posted by: NaCly Dog at May 27, 2024 01:43 PM (u82oZ)

25 21 Jimmy Carter commemorated the battle in his Falaise speech.

Posted by: Bulgaroctonus at May 27, 2024 01:43 PM (v6JzV)

26 If only we had that kind of military and leaders today.
Posted by: Eromero at May 27, 2024 01:33 PM (o2ZRX)

Not defending today’s woke leadership but I think having a number of incompetent military generals is the default position throughout our history. I believe our success is directly related to the American soldier that can adjust through the incompetence based on our military philosophy that even those lowest ranked should be able to make decisions if the situation calls for it.

Posted by: polynikes at May 27, 2024 01:43 PM (SHMXB)

27 I play a number of computer wargames. Mostly those that are realistic, non-FPS type. Computerized hex style, or RTS.

Even knowing the tactics of historical battles that can be replayed, from any side, I fail more often than not.

Our military leaders of that era were beyond human, IMO.

Posted by: Martini Farmer at May 27, 2024 01:44 PM (Q4IgG)

28 22 Thank you, Ace. Thanks a lot.

***

Yes, many thanks

Posted by: vmom stabby stabby stabby stabby stabamillion at May 27, 2024 01:44 PM (3OazS)

29 Didn't the Allies miss out on capturing another 200K Germans because they hesitated? Particularly Monty?
Posted by: G'rump928(c) at May 27, 2024 01:42 PM (aD39U)
---------
The enemy also has a say. The Germans fought like hell to keep the exit to the pocket open as long as possible.

Posted by: Captain Obvious, Laird o' the Sea, Radioactive Knight at May 27, 2024 01:46 PM (mUnoX)

30 Ace, did any of your relatives serve in WWII?

Posted by: Bulgaroctonus at May 27, 2024 01:46 PM (v6JzV)

31 Does Memorial day cover the fallen American service men and women of every war? Does it apply to those who fought and died in the Revolutionary war? Civil war? WW 1? Spanish American war? Or is it more specific to WW 2 and after?
I wonder about these things.

Posted by: Madamemayhem (uppity wench) at May 27, 2024 01:47 PM (4XwPj)

32 I believe our success is directly related to the American soldier that can adjust through the incompetence based on our military philosophy that even those lowest ranked should be able to make decisions if the situation calls for it.
Posted by: polynikes

ROE put a halt to soldiers using their brains while 'at war'.
Now if they do what is needed they will face summary judgement by those woke 'leaders'.

Posted by: AZ deplorable moron at May 27, 2024 01:47 PM (xKHsf)

33 The Battle of Falaise.

The sad part is senior officer and enlisted Germans got away, to be reconstituted in new divisions in Germany.

It was an incomplete victory.

Decades later, the entire Normandy Campaign off the beaches to Falaise was studied hard by NATO army leaders. They wanted to resist an overwhelming Soviet Red Army using techniques the Wehrmacht used in 1944.

Posted by: NaCly Dog at May 27, 2024 01:47 PM (u82oZ)

34 I find it annoying, how every war video must now question whether all that killing was necessary, just like every nature video questions whether climate change is going to cause whatever we're seeing to be endangered, or how all discussions of the Founding Fathers must mention that some of them owned slaves, and therefore questions the whole endeavor.

Posted by: BurtTC at May 27, 2024 01:47 PM (AeQlj)

35 Does Memorial day cover the fallen American service men and women of every war? Does it apply to those who fought and died in the Revolutionary war? Civil war? WW 1? Spanish American war? Or is it more specific to WW 2 and after?
I wonder about these things.
Posted by: Madamemayhem (uppity wench) at May 27, 2024 01:47 PM (4XwPj)
-----------
All wars. It started out as Decoration Day, to commemorate ACW dead, but was expanded at a time I'm too lazy to look up.

Posted by: Captain Obvious, Laird o' the Sea, Radioactive Knight at May 27, 2024 01:48 PM (mUnoX)

36 31 I think it’s every war. Was started by Southern women decorating the graves of fallen Confederate soldiers, hence its old name of “Decoration Day.”

Posted by: Bulgaroctonus at May 27, 2024 01:49 PM (v6JzV)

37 Afternoon.
==================
I'm not sure but a pretty girl who flashed me her panties on the monkey bars gave me a kiss afterwards.
Posted by: Humphreyrobot at May 27, 2024 01:37 PM (J8LnB)

Playa!

Posted by: Robert at May 27, 2024 01:50 PM (xmaHm)

38 v6JzV)

26 If only we had that kind of military and leaders today.
Posted by: Eromero at May 27, 2024 01:33 PM (o2ZRX)

Not defending today’s woke leadership but I think having a number of incompetent military generals is the default position throughout our history. I believe our success is directly related to the American soldier that can adjust through the incompetence based on our military philosophy that even those lowest ranked should be able to make decisions if the situation calls for it.
Posted by: polynikes at May 27, 2024 01:43 PM (SHMXB
Agreed.

Posted by: Eromero at May 27, 2024 01:50 PM (o2ZRX)

39 Posted by: AZ deplorable moron at May 27, 2024 01:47 PM (xKHsf)

Don’t disagree. It’s part of the Left’s plan to further dismantle the most powerful military in history.

Posted by: polynikes at May 27, 2024 01:50 PM (SHMXB)

40 hehehehe, Falsies, hehehehe...

Posted by: baevis at May 27, 2024 01:51 PM (SYTee)

41 G'rump928(c)

Yes it was a phase line issue.

Monty coordinated the two arms of encirclement poorly, using the Polish Armored division vice a better equipped division.

He should have used Patton's Third Army to close the southern jaw. Patton was ready and willing to do so, but was told no.

Posted by: NaCly Dog at May 27, 2024 01:52 PM (u82oZ)

42 All wars. It started out as Decoration Day, to commemorate ACW dead, but was expanded at a time I'm too lazy to look up.
Posted by: Captain Obvious,

Thanks, Cap! Now, here's a thorn... All the combatants in ACW were American. Do they all get honors or just those who played for the "correct" (politically correct) team?

Posted by: Madamemayhem (uppity wench) at May 27, 2024 01:52 PM (4XwPj)

43 Is Caen where the pepper comes from?

Posted by: Bulgaroctonus at May 27, 2024 01:52 PM (v6JzV)

44 31 Does Memorial day cover the fallen American service men and women of every war? Does it apply to those who fought and died in the Revolutionary war? Civil war? WW 1? Spanish American war? Or is it more specific to WW 2 and after?
I wonder about these things.
Posted by: Madamemayhem (uppity wench) at May 27, 2024 01:47 PM (
Everybody but Confederates, of course.

Posted by: Eromero at May 27, 2024 01:52 PM (o2ZRX)

45 Didn't the Allies miss out on capturing another 200K Germans because they hesitated? Particularly Monty?
Posted by: G'rump928(c) at May 27, 2024 01:42 PM (aD39U)

It seems much of the written history of the Allied "victory," post-D Day papers over the fact the British by then weren't really capable of keeping up.

Monty was spectacular at promoting Monty, but the truth is, if the Americans had not had to defer to the Brits, this thing would likely have been over long before it was.

Posted by: BurtTC at May 27, 2024 01:53 PM (YSg7h)

46
Thanks, Cap! Now, here's a thorn... All the combatants in ACW were American. Do they all get honors or just those who played for the "correct" (politically correct) team?
Posted by: Madamemayhem (uppity wench) at May 27, 2024 01:52 PM (4XwPj)
---------
Everybody, without distinction. At least, so far.

Posted by: Captain Obvious, Laird o' the Sea, Radioactive Knight at May 27, 2024 01:53 PM (mUnoX)

47 We went to the Memorial Day mass at our parish. The deacon did the homily and noted various stories of valor, and concluded in mentioning how his own son was killed in Afghanistan. I was absolutely floored.

Posted by: Big Fat Meanie at May 27, 2024 01:53 PM (yZNQI)

48

The first national observance of Memorial Day occurred on May 30, 1868.[5] Then known as Decoration Day and observed on May 30th

In 1971, Congress standardized the holiday as "Memorial Day" and changed its observance to the last Monday in May.

Posted by: Bertram Cabot, Jr. at May 27, 2024 01:53 PM (63Dwl)

49 Caaaaaaaaaen!

Posted by: Captain James T. Kirk at May 27, 2024 01:53 PM (OguvZ)

50 Southern women decorating the graves of fallen Confederate [and Yankee] soldiers, hence its old name of “Decoration Day.”

Posted by: Braenyard at May 27, 2024 01:54 PM (fkuu7)

51 Monty was spectacular at promoting Monty, but the truth is, if the Americans had not had to defer to the Brits, this thing would likely have been over long before it was.
Posted by: BurtTC at May 27, 2024 01:53 PM (YSg7h)

One reason I’m not a huge Eisenhower fan. Just a regular fan. Admittedly he did the job he was appointed to do.

Posted by: polynikes at May 27, 2024 01:55 PM (SHMXB)

52 Remembering all the good people who stepped up when needed.
All my gym teachers were former marines (no ex-). My father in law 3+years in the Pacific, my uncle from Midway on.
My father Army, seriously hurt in the Alutians, said a prayer for the doctor who kept him in a field hospital for months but sent him home with his leg.
My mother lost her fiance when his p-51 went down over Dachau (good for me, not for her).
We could never repay these people.

Posted by: From about that Time at May 27, 2024 01:56 PM (4780s)

53 I think it was referred to as Memorial Day long before '71.

Posted by: Braenyard at May 27, 2024 01:56 PM (fkuu7)

54 Posted by: Madamemayhem (uppity wench) at May 27, 2024 01:47 PM
I most certainly think so, from the Revolution to today

Posted by: Skip at May 27, 2024 01:56 PM (fwDg9)

55 I love the story about how Ike had to appeal to King George to keep Churchill from joining the invasion force.

Posted by: Bulgaroctonus at May 27, 2024 01:57 PM (v6JzV)

56 I think it was referred to as Memorial Day long before '71.
Posted by: Braenyard at May 27, 2024 01:56 PM (fkuu7)
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Yes. It was always "Memorial Day" to me when I was a kid in the '60s.

Posted by: Captain Obvious, Laird o' the Sea, Radioactive Knight at May 27, 2024 01:57 PM (mUnoX)

57 love the story about how Ike had to appeal to King George to keep Churchill from joining the invasion force.
Posted by: Bulgaroctonus at May 27, 2024 01:57 PM (v6JzV)

He would have carried the Thompson.

Posted by: polynikes at May 27, 2024 01:58 PM (SHMXB)

58 Watching BoB, Blige is on story they get totally wrong here, he survived , returned to combat in Korea if I remember right.
It was on YouTube I saw long ago

Posted by: Skip at May 27, 2024 01:58 PM (fwDg9)

59 Caaaaaaaaaen!
Posted by: Captain James T. Kirk at May 27, 2024 01:53 PM (OguvZ)

What?? Keep it down, I'm trying to bang a bridesmaid here!

Posted by: Zombie Sonny Corleone at May 27, 2024 01:59 PM (YSg7h)

60 Yes. It was always "Memorial Day" to me when I was a kid in the '60s.
Posted by: Captain Obvious, Laird o' the Sea, Radioactive Knight at May 27, 2024 01:57 PM (mUnoX)

It was Yankee Memorial Day when I was a child. I guess to distinguish it from Confederate Memorial Day in April.

Posted by: G'rump928(c) at May 27, 2024 02:00 PM (aD39U)

61 Watching BoB, Blige is on story they get totally wrong here, he survived , returned to combat in Korea if I remember right.
It was on YouTube I saw long ago
Posted by: Skip at May 27, 2024 01:58 PM (fwDg9)
-----------
Blithe. The other fellows in Easy lost contact with him, and he never came to reunions. His family wrote in with news about him (he'd passed away long before the show), and the Easy survivors were sad to know that he'd been around and they didn't know.

Posted by: Captain Obvious, Laird o' the Sea, Radioactive Knight at May 27, 2024 02:00 PM (mUnoX)

62 BurtTC

We needed Commonwealth divisions and other troops in the European Theater. We had limited our army size based on that alliance.

Monty's failings were noted by General Brooks and Churchill. But he had a big following in the UK public. Twas delicate.

Eisenhower did well given his situation.

Posted by: NaCly Dog at May 27, 2024 02:01 PM (u82oZ)

63 A lot of German troops got out of the Pocket before it was finally closed at the eastern end. They kept going east and got across the Seine River. There they were sorted-out, assigned to new or rebuilt units, and re-armed.

The debate continues among historians about who was to blame for the delay in closing the Pocket, thereby letting veteran German troops escape to fight another day. Patton blamed the British for being cautious and slow. The British say they encountered more opposition than the Americans. Bradley and Montgomery said they did not rush the closing, in order to prevent British and American units running headlong into each other and causing Blue-on-Blue losses, just to prevent a "few" Germans from escaping.

(Rushing to close encirclement pockets in Russia never worried the Germans about possible fratricide.)

Posted by: Gref at May 27, 2024 02:02 PM (5fDan)

64 In the game of Risk, if a player doesn't try to win the whole board when the opportunity presents itself you end up with an ever expanding but unsustainable arms race.

The Allies failed to take the opportunity to knock off the Soviets at the end of WWII, and while the Soviets eventually collapsed their influence holds sway to this day.

Posted by: davidt at May 27, 2024 02:02 PM (SYTee)

65 One reason I’m not a huge Eisenhower fan. Just a regular fan. Admittedly he did the job he was appointed to do.
Posted by: polynikes at May 27, 2024 01:55 PM (SHMXB)

It's always possible to second guess every decision anyone makes. I don't know how one would have been able to prevent it, but for example Market Garden never should have been allowed to proceed.

Posted by: BurtTC at May 27, 2024 02:03 PM (YSg7h)

66 Everybody, without distinction. At least, so far.
Posted by: Captain Obvious,

Thanks again.
Fun little story...
Boy spawn was in high school and was doing some verbal test sort of thing at the legion. The question was "name 3 greatest American generals".
Boy spawn listed Patton, Pershing, .... then hesitated. He wasn't sure whether to include Robert E. Lee because the wording of the question was United States General. Lee was elevated to General in CSA

Posted by: Madamemayhem (uppity wench) at May 27, 2024 02:03 PM (4XwPj)

67 The British were 5 years into war by then. Churchill knew if the Brits played no part in the victories (and the losses) they would play no part in the aftermath.
Remember, FDR made them send their gold over to the States before a single "Lend-Lease" piece of equipment went over.
They were broke, and damned near broken.

Posted by: Constitutionalist at May 27, 2024 02:05 PM (605N4)

68 Monty's failings were noted by General Brooks and Churchill. But he had a big following in the UK public. Twas delicate.

Eisenhower did well given his situation.
Posted by: NaCly Dog at May 27, 2024 02:01 PM (u82oZ)

Right, but that's the point. The Brits were a spent force by '44, but we had to pretend they weren't, for political reasons.

Posted by: BurtTC at May 27, 2024 02:05 PM (YSg7h)

69 Bulgaroctonus

Churchill was a warrior most of his life.

He is the only senior government official that went to the WWI front after he messed up. He resigned as First Lord of the Admiralty administratively in charge of the entire Royal Navy. He became a Lt. Col. commanding a battalion in the trenches for less than a year.

Posted by: NaCly Dog at May 27, 2024 02:05 PM (u82oZ)

70 Biden says each generation has to 'earn' freedom, in solemn Memorial Day remarks
Story by Zeke Miller, AP White House Correspondent

WASHINGTON (AP) — President Joe Biden marked Memorial Day with a pledge that the country would continue the work of the nation's fallen toward creating a more perfect union, "for which they lived, and for which they died for."

Delivering remarks at a solemn remembrance ceremony at Arlington National Cemetery, Biden said each generation must ensure the sacrifice of the country's service members is not in vain.

“Freedom has never been guaranteed,” Biden said under gray skies in the memorial amphitheater. “Every generation has to earn it, fight for it, defend it in the battle between autocracy and democracy, between the greed of a few, and the rights of many.”

He added: “On this day, we came together again to reflect, to remember, and above all, to recommit to the future they fought for, a future grounded in freedom, democracy, opportunity and equality. Not just for some, but for all.”

Continued -

Posted by: L - If they do it with you, they'll do it to you, too at May 27, 2024 02:06 PM (NFX2v)

71 #2
Before the ceremony began, Biden, joined by Vice President Kamala Harris and Defense Secretary Lloyd Austin, placed a wreath at the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier.

In his remarks, Biden invoked the anniversary this week of the death of his son Beau, who served in Iraq and later died from brain cancer that the president attributes to his time stationed near toxic burn pits, to highlight the importance of honoring the service of those who came home with injuries, in addition to the dead.

“Last year, the VA delivered more benefits and processed more claims than ever in our history," Biden said, crediting the PACT Act which grants automatic coverage for certain health conditions suffered by veterans by presuming they result from their military service. “For too long after fighting for our nation, these veterans had to fight to get the right health care, to get the benefits they had earned, not anymore.”

Biden began the day hosting a breakfast at the White House for administration officials, military leaders, veterans, and Gold Star family members.

Posted by: L - If they do it with you, they'll do it to you, too at May 27, 2024 02:06 PM (NFX2v)

72 "Does Memorial day cover the fallen American service men and women of every war? "

Yes, and I'm not sure it even has to be an actual war.

Posted by: fd at May 27, 2024 02:06 PM (vFG9F)

73 Posted by: Madamemayhem (uppity wench) at May 27, 2024 02:03 PM (4XwPj

Lee was offered the job to be the Commander of the Union forces. I’d say at the time he was considered the best General by both sides.

MacArthur would have been in my top 3.

Posted by: polynikes at May 27, 2024 02:06 PM (SHMXB)

74 The Allies failed to take the opportunity to knock off the Soviets at the end of WWII, and while the Soviets eventually collapsed their influence holds sway to this day.
Posted by: davidt

Churchill begged Truman not to send the Army home. Truman, in his memoirs, said the American public wouldn't stand it.
Probably not. Churchill was voted out on the cusp of victory.

Posted by: Constitutionalist at May 27, 2024 02:07 PM (605N4)

75 Constitutionalist

Their gold went to Canada, but yes, their extensive business holdings in America were bought for pennies on the pound.

Posted by: NaCly Dog at May 27, 2024 02:07 PM (u82oZ)

76 MacArthur would have been in my top 3.
Posted by: polynikes at May 27, 2024 02:06 PM (SHMXB)
----------
Ulysses Grant.

Posted by: Captain Obvious, Laird o' the Sea, Radioactive Knight at May 27, 2024 02:07 PM (mUnoX)

77 Yes. It was always "Memorial Day" to me when I was a kid in the '60s.
Posted by: Captain Obvious, Laird o' the Sea, Radioactive Knight at May 27, 2024 01:57 PM (mUnoX)

It was Yankee Memorial Day when I was a child. I guess to distinguish it from Confederate Memorial Day in April.
Posted by: G'rump928(c) at May 27, 2024 02:00 PM (aD39U)

Right, not unlike Thanksgiving, it was being observed differently, depending on where you were. It was nationalized quite a long time after it was already a thing.

Posted by: BurtTC at May 27, 2024 02:07 PM (YSg7h)

78 Biden says each generation has to 'earn' freedom, in solemn Memorial Day remarks
Story by Zeke Miller, AP White House Correspondent

Notable choice of words. "Earn," rather than, "Defend."

Posted by: davidt at May 27, 2024 02:08 PM (SYTee)

79 Biden lying through his teeth, as usual.

He doesn't give a damn about Memorial Day, or the fallen.

Posted by: SMH at what's coming at May 27, 2024 02:08 PM (pANnd)

80 69 Yep, I know that, Salty. He had to take responsibility for the Gallipoli debacle.

Posted by: Bulgaroctonus at May 27, 2024 02:09 PM (v6JzV)

81 Their gold went to Canada, but yes, their extensive business holdings in America were bought for pennies on the pound.
Posted by: NaCly Dog

Thanks. Didn't know the aftermath. Churchill's WWll history ends when he is no longer PM.

Posted by: Constitutionalist at May 27, 2024 02:09 PM (605N4)

82 The Wehrmacht had a nasty habit of getting encircled from 1942 onwards.

Posted by: Beartooth at May 27, 2024 02:09 PM (XT+5H)

83 Churchill begged Truman not to send the Army home. Truman, in his memoirs, said the American public wouldn't stand it.
Probably not. Churchill was voted out on the cusp of victory.
Posted by: Constitutionalist at May 27, 2024 02:07 PM (605N4)

Truman walked into the White House with a Deep State that was already overrun with commies who had a strong influence on what his administration did and did not do.

Posted by: BurtTC at May 27, 2024 02:10 PM (YSg7h)

84 The Wehrmacht had a nasty habit of getting encircled from 1942 onwards.
Posted by: Beartooth at May 27, 2024 02:09 PM (XT+5H)
---------
They did a lot of encircling prior to '42, so it's only fair.

Posted by: Captain Obvious, Laird o' the Sea, Radioactive Knight at May 27, 2024 02:10 PM (mUnoX)

85 65 One reason I’m not a huge Eisenhower fan. Just a regular fan. Admittedly he did the job he was appointed to do.
Posted by: polynikes at May 27, 2024 01:55 PM (SHMXB)

It's always possible to second guess every decision anyone makes. I don't know how one would have been able to prevent it, but for example Market Garden never should have been allowed to proceed.
Posted by: BurtTC at May 27, 2024 02:03 PM (YSg7h)
Monty sacrificed the Polish at Market Garden, maybe at Falaise?

Posted by: Eromero at May 27, 2024 02:10 PM (o2ZRX)

86 davidt

I've gamed out the US / Soviet Union conflict after the Germans quit. We would need nukes. We had a better air force, but even the survivors in the Red Army were much more numerous that the US troops.

The US Army had no will to fight Russians.

Posted by: NaCly Dog at May 27, 2024 02:11 PM (u82oZ)

87 No kidding Burt. Again, all I know is what Churchill wrote (and he basically used his written correspondence as his basis). He thought the US State Dept was overtly commie then.

Posted by: Constitutionalist at May 27, 2024 02:11 PM (605N4)

88 My son Beau died there. And then was eaten by cannibals.

Posted by: Joe B. at May 27, 2024 02:12 PM (1OMKq)

89 Monty sacrificed the Polish at Market Garden, maybe at Falaise?
Posted by: Eromero at May 27, 2024 02:10 PM (o2ZRX)
------------
British 1st Airborne Div was annihilated as a fighting force at Arnhem.

Posted by: Captain Obvious, Laird o' the Sea, Radioactive Knight at May 27, 2024 02:12 PM (mUnoX)

90 The Wehrmacht had a nasty habit of getting encircled from 1942 onwards.
Posted by: Beartooth at May 27, 2024 02:09 PM (XT+5H)

It's almost as if having a megalomaniacal sociopath as one's leader, who won't listen to anything suggesting his military isn't quite in reality what he believes it to be, on paper, is a bad thing for the men on the ground.

Almost.

Posted by: BurtTC at May 27, 2024 02:12 PM (YSg7h)

91 Eromero

And FM Alexander sacrificed the Polish at Monte Cassino in Italy. There is a pattern.

Posted by: NaCly Dog at May 27, 2024 02:12 PM (u82oZ)

92 The US Army had no will to fight Russians.
___

Now, the lunatics in the five-sided nuthouse want nothing more than to make up for that.

And the Army now, as currently constituted, will lose, and lose badly.

Posted by: SMH at what's coming at May 27, 2024 02:13 PM (pANnd)

93
The US Army had no will to fight Russians.
Posted by: NaCly Dog at May 27, 2024 02:11 PM (u82oZ)

Nor did the American people.

Posted by: Joe B. at May 27, 2024 02:13 PM (1OMKq)

94 One reason I’m not a huge Eisenhower fan. Just a regular fan. Admittedly he did the job he was appointed to do.
Posted by: polynikes at May 27, 2024 01:55 PM (SHMXB)

If Eisenhower would have backed the UK and France in 1956, none of the current problems in the middle east would be happening. He cut their throats for no reason.

Posted by: Tom Servo at May 27, 2024 02:13 PM (q3gwH)

95 As said down below, the military even in peacetime can be dangerous. Many servicemen are killed in training, accidents and dangerous conditions.

Posted by: Skip at May 27, 2024 02:13 PM (fwDg9)

96 while the Soviets eventually collapsed their influence holds sway to this day.
Posted by: davidt at May 27, 2024 02:02 PM

Thank you! I've tried to make this point since November of 2016!!

Posted by: Hillary! 2024! 2028! at May 27, 2024 02:13 PM (a3Q+t)

97 Nor did the American people.
Posted by: Joe B. at May 27, 2024 02:13 PM (1OMKq)
----------
After four years of talking up the Mighty Red Army as our allies? Nope.

Posted by: Captain Obvious, Laird o' the Sea, Radioactive Knight at May 27, 2024 02:14 PM (mUnoX)

98 If Eisenhower would have backed the UK and France in 1956, none of the current problems in the middle east would be happening. He cut their throats for no reason.
Posted by: Tom Servo at May 27, 2024 02:13 PM (q3gwH)
-

Oil?

Posted by: Biden's Dog sniffs a whole lotta malarkey, at May 27, 2024 02:14 PM (tbAq/)

99 The US Army had no will to fight Russians.
Posted by: NaCly Dog at May 27, 2024 02:11 PM (u82oZ)

Plus no democracy can stay in a state of war indefinitely - only dictatorships can. The people get sick of war and want out.

Posted by: Tom Servo at May 27, 2024 02:14 PM (q3gwH)

100 No kidding Burt. Again, all I know is what Churchill wrote (and he basically used his written correspondence as his basis). He thought the US State Dept was overtly commie then.
Posted by: Constitutionalist at May 27, 2024 02:11 PM (605N4)

I believe Churchill figured it out, during that last summit with FDR and Stalin. He saw that FDR was basically dying, and the U.S. contingent was awfully deferential to Soviet wishes.

Posted by: BurtTC at May 27, 2024 02:15 PM (YSg7h)

101 MacArthur would have been in my top 3.
Posted by: polynikes

I constantly go back and forth over MacArthur. Sometimes he was brilliant, sometimes he was in idjit. You never knew which one you would get, and in the meantime, he was consistently an enormous pain in the ass. The man could write a great farewell, though.

....The shadows are lengthening for me. The twilight is here.
My days of old have vanished in tone and tint. They have gone glimmering through the dreams of things that were. Their memory is one of wondrous beauty, watered by tears, and coaxed and caressed by the smiles of yesterday.

Posted by: Archimedes at May 27, 2024 02:15 PM (CsUN+)

102 I've gamed out the US / Soviet Union conflict after the Germans quit. We would need nukes. We had a better air force, but even the survivors in the Red Army were much more numerous that the US troops.

The US Army had no will to fight Russians.
Posted by: NaCly Dog at May 27, 2024 02:11 PM (u82oZ)

We didn’t have to start it. We just needed to refuse Stalin’s demands and go from there. Instead, Ike was made or agreed to watch a propaganda parade for hours.

And nukes were our Trump card. We could have had at least five ready to go.

Posted by: polynikes at May 27, 2024 02:15 PM (SHMXB)

103 Plus no democracy can stay in a state of war indefinitely - only dictatorships can. The people get sick of war and want out.
Posted by: Tom Servo at May 27, 2024 02:14 PM (q3gwH)

But enough about the U.S. of A. in 2024...

Posted by: BurtTC at May 27, 2024 02:16 PM (YSg7h)

104 The Allies failed to take the opportunity to knock off the Soviets at the end of WWII, and while the Soviets eventually collapsed their influence holds sway to this day.
Posted by: davidt

Oh, please. This is ridiculous. Nobody "knocks off" the Russians. Neither Napoleon nor Hitler could do it, and neither could we, especially since we were still fighting the Japs.

Posted by: Bulgaroctonus at May 27, 2024 02:16 PM (v6JzV)

105 Tom Servo

Maybe. The Red Army invasion of Hungary was part of his decision.

I do not see the French and British holding on to the Suez Canal after they seized it. They did not have the strength to crush the Arab world in 1956.

Posted by: NaCly Dog at May 27, 2024 02:16 PM (u82oZ)

106 Just finished a fascinating book, first-hand account from the Russian Eastern front of highly-decorated German sharpshooter/marksman/sniper Joseph "Sepp" Allerberger (which led me to rewatch the film "Enemy At The Gates)" and its depiction of the Battle of Stalingrad (as the scene of the Russian v. German sniper cat-and-mouse match story)."

Sniper on the Eastern Front: The Memoirs of Sepp Allerberger, Knight’s Cross

The tortuous brutality by Russian troops in some scenes described are the stuff of nightmares.

One interesting detail was that after Germany surrendered, he and some of his fellow Austrian soldiers were trying to make it back home without being captured by the SS (who were executing them, failing to acknowledge the surrender) or American troops -- who were gleefully transporting & handing them over to the Russians (where many died brutally, subsequently working for years in Russian prison & mining camps).

Posted by: ShainS -- Future Secretary of Retribution candidate at May 27, 2024 02:17 PM (bu09+)

107 Posted by: Archimedes at May 27, 2024 02:15 PM (CsUN+)

When was he an idiot? Militarily speaking.

Posted by: polynikes at May 27, 2024 02:17 PM (SHMXB)

108 polynikes

We would not have had more than 2 until 1946, if we dropped 3 in 1945. Our nuke production was slow.

Posted by: NaCly Dog at May 27, 2024 02:18 PM (u82oZ)

109 98 If Eisenhower would have backed the UK and France in 1956, none of the current problems in the middle east would be happening. He cut their throats for no reason.
Posted by: Tom Servo at May 27, 2024 02:13 PM (q3gwH)
-
Oil?
Posted by: Biden's Dog sniffs a whole lotta malarkey, at May 27, 2024 02:14 PM (tbAq/)

It's been debated for many decades. Most likely he was sick of England and France still wanting to try and dictate what happened in NATO and elsewhere, so he permanently destroyed the foreign policy establishments of both of them and established the US as unquestioned hegemon of NATO from then on.
But he empowered the Arabs and brought about endless war in the middle east by doing it.

1956 was truly the end of both England and France as any serious international powers.

Posted by: Tom Servo at May 27, 2024 02:19 PM (q3gwH)

110 If Eisenhower would have backed the UK and France in 1956, none of the current problems in the middle east would be happening. He cut their throats for no reason.
Posted by: Tom Servo at May 27, 2024 02:13 PM (q3gwH)

Meh. That, or we never should have entangled ourselves in that region at all, ever.

That's Kissinger's doing. All those "free marketeers" who love them some open markets, would be loving a Middle East today, where the Brits and french would have no sway, and commerce would rule.

Posted by: BurtTC at May 27, 2024 02:19 PM (YSg7h)

111 The Wehrmacht had a nasty habit of getting encircled from 1942 onwards.
Posted by: Beartooth at May 27, 2024 02:09 PM (XT+5H)

Not that I am unhappy that WII Germany generals were defensive maneuver idiots, but what the f were they thinking? Fall back immediately across the river just past Chambois and build a defense line and make the allies cross the river or go around...the northern spearhead of the allies would have to meet up with the southern at that point and the pincer movement would have been diffused...

Posted by: Boswell at May 27, 2024 02:19 PM (K+UlC)

112 When was he an idiot? Militarily speaking.
Posted by: polynikes

He did nothing between the time Pearl Harbor was attacked and the beginning of the Japanese conquest of the Philippines.

Posted by: Bulgaroctonus at May 27, 2024 02:20 PM (v6JzV)

113 We would not have had more than 2 until 1946, if we dropped 3 in 1945. Our nuke production was slow.
Posted by: NaCly Dog at May 27, 2024 02:18 PM (u82oZ)

I think the consensus on that is in debate. I’ve actually read that we could have produced up to seven from 1944 to 1946. We used two.

Posted by: polynikes at May 27, 2024 02:20 PM (SHMXB)

114 97 Nor did the American people.
Posted by: Joe B. at May 27, 2024 02:13 PM (1OMKq)
----------
After four years of talking up the Mighty Red Army as our allies? Nope.
Posted by: Captain Obvious, Laird o' the Sea, Radioactive Knight at May 27, 2024 02:14 PM (mUnoX)

That and after nearly 3 years of war people wanted peace. Regardless of who the new enemy would have been.

Posted by: Joe B. at May 27, 2024 02:21 PM (1OMKq)

115 Nobody "knocks off" the Russians...
Posted by: Bulgaroctonus at May 27, 2024 02:16 PM (v6JzV)

But enough about the U.S. of A. in 2024...

Posted by: BurtTC at May 27, 2024 02:21 PM (YSg7h)

116 68 Monty's failings were noted by General Brooks and Churchill. But he had a big following in the UK public. Twas delicate.

Eisenhower did well given his situation.
Posted by: NaCly Dog at May 27, 2024 02:01 PM (u82oZ)

Right, but that's the point. The Brits were a spent force by '44, but we had to pretend they weren't, for political reasons.

Posted by: BurtTC at May 27, 2024 02:05 PM (YSg7h)

A spent force is right. Go to the map and count the number of US and Commonwealth army corps.

They are equal. Five each. There were two operational armies in each force at this time. US 1st and 3rd; British 2nd and Canadian 1st. The British never became any stronger in NW Europe. Montgomery was told months before D-Day that he would receive few replacements, and to fight accordingly. This is one reason for his cautious attack plans. The US Army in Europe continued to increase as divisions and separate combat units were continually shipped from the US. (Note - the US had a sixth corps in France, not shown on the map: VIIIth Corps had gone west into the Brittany Peninsula after the breakout from Normandy.

Posted by: Gref at May 27, 2024 02:22 PM (5fDan)

117 Boswell

Hitler dictated the no retreat policy. Which greatly helped the Allies. This is one reason Allied Intel agencies gave no help to the numerous coup attempts on Hitler. Better a stupid man in power that, say, Rommel.

After July 20th, 1944, going against Hitler was suicide for a German general.

Posted by: NaCly Dog at May 27, 2024 02:23 PM (u82oZ)

118
Monty peaked at El Alemein.

Posted by: Hadrian the Seventh at May 27, 2024 02:24 PM (MoZTd)

119 Posted by: Hadrian the Seventh

When's the party at your place?

Posted by: Bulgaroctonus at May 27, 2024 02:24 PM (v6JzV)

120 Hadrian the Seventh

Agreed. And even that battle was not a smooth victory. Patton would have crushed them.

Posted by: NaCly Dog at May 27, 2024 02:25 PM (u82oZ)

121 Also, going to war with Stalin would have driven him into the arms of Tojo.

Posted by: Bulgaroctonus at May 27, 2024 02:25 PM (v6JzV)

122 After July 20th, 1944, going against Hitler was suicide for a German general.
Posted by: NaCly Dog at May 27, 2024 02:23 PM (u82oZ)

Hey Salty - that makes sense...because no thoughtful general would ever allow those bubbles of defenders to get pinched off...again and again.

The other thing that I occurred to me is that Hitler always wanted to play offense, which only works at certain points in a conflict but also works against you in many others...he wasn't a bright man.

Posted by: Boswell at May 27, 2024 02:27 PM (K+UlC)

123 He did nothing between the time Pearl Harbor was attacked and the beginning of the Japanese conquest of the Philippines.
Posted by: Bulgaroctonus at May 27, 2024 02:20 PM (v6JzV)

?

They were attacked at the same time

Posted by: polynikes at May 27, 2024 02:27 PM (SHMXB)

124 And this crap isn't all hooked together, Falaise Pocket video pops on on my YouTube app suggestions

Posted by: Skip at May 27, 2024 02:27 PM (fwDg9)

125
Monty in Europe

- Didn't seize Caen on D-Day
- Goodwood
- Falaise
- Failed to clear the Scheldt estuary
- Market Garden

Posted by: Hadrian the Seventh at May 27, 2024 02:28 PM (MoZTd)

126 Different than one in heading, and didn't click on that

Posted by: Skip at May 27, 2024 02:28 PM (fwDg9)

127 He did nothing between the time Pearl Harbor was attacked and the beginning of the Japanese conquest of the Philippines.
Posted by: Bulgaroctonus at May 27, 2024 02:20 PM (v6JzV)

?

They were attacked at the same time
Posted by: polynikes

Nope, Pearl Harbor was first. Macarthur had plenty of warning time to mount a defense, but did nothing.

Posted by: Bulgaroctonus at May 27, 2024 02:29 PM (v6JzV)

128 And this crap isn't all hooked together, Falaise Pocket video pops on on my YouTube app suggestions
Posted by: Skip at May 27, 2024 02:27 PM (fwDg9)
----------
You kidding? I bought cordless weed whacker a couple of days ago, and now I'm getting YouTube adverts for cordless power tools.

Posted by: Captain Obvious, Laird o' the Sea, Radioactive Knight at May 27, 2024 02:29 PM (mUnoX)

129 When was he an idiot? Militarily speaking.
Posted by: polynikes

He did nothing between the time Pearl Harbor was attacked and the beginning of the Japanese conquest of the Philippines.
Posted by: Bulgaroctonus

He was probably still taking his morning dump before he heard either had happened.

Posted by: Itinerant Alley Butcher at May 27, 2024 02:29 PM (cOq4q)

130 Soviets stayed away from fighting the Japanese until it was a forgone conclusion

Posted by: Skip at May 27, 2024 02:29 PM (fwDg9)

131 When was he an idiot? Militarily speaking.

His biggest error was that he refused to believe the Chinese were serious about getting into Korea, to the point that we almost lost that war.

He insisted on invading the Philippines, because, you know, he promised. There are many who would have preferred to focus on the more northerly route favored by Nimitz. Instead, we did both, and probably incurred many unnecessary casualties.

On the plus side, his stewardship of occupied Japan was brilliant, and he receives much of the credit for island hopping.

Posted by: Archimedes at May 27, 2024 02:29 PM (CsUN+)

132
MacArthur should have been sacked after losing the Philippines.

Posted by: Hadrian the Seventh at May 27, 2024 02:30 PM (MoZTd)

133 That's Kissinger's doing.

Oh yeah, numbah one ahoe.

Posted by: Eromero at May 27, 2024 02:31 PM (o2ZRX)

134 The other thing that I occurred to me is that Hitler always wanted to play offense, which only works at certain points in a conflict but also works against you in many others...he wasn't a bright man.

He had some amateur's luck in 1941 saving the German situation in Typhoon. He let it go to his head.

Posted by: Cicero (@cicero43) at May 27, 2024 02:31 PM (guGkK)

135 Timeline of early December 1941

Japan attacks 7 Dec
US declares war on Japan 8 Dec
Germany declares war on the US
US declares war on Germany

The US in the ETO and MTO can be laid squarely at Adolph since the Tri-Partite Pact did not require Germany to declare war.

Posted by: Anna Puma at May 27, 2024 02:31 PM (mO/OJ)

136 Nope, Pearl Harbor was first. Macarthur had plenty of warning time to mount a defense, but did nothing.
Posted by: Bulgaroctonus at May 27, 2024 02:29 PM (v6JzV

Plenty of time. Ridiculous statement.

Posted by: polynikes at May 27, 2024 02:31 PM (SHMXB)

137 Polynikes, I think the issue was that the Japanese were still heading to the Philippines (which, being on the other side of the dateline, was still in December 6), when the attack on Pearl Came. There would have been time for Macarthur to have gotten the Philippines' act together before the Japanese made it into striking distance.

Posted by: Bulgaroctonus at May 27, 2024 02:31 PM (v6JzV)

138 When was he an idiot? Militarily speaking.
Posted by: polynikes

He did nothing between the time Pearl Harbor was attacked and the beginning of the Japanese conquest of the Philippines.
Posted by: Bulgaroctonus

He was probably still taking his morning dump before he heard either had happened.
Posted by: Itinerant Alley Butcher

Did he have standing orders to go? Did he have to wait for chain of command to make the decision and send orders?

Posted by: Madamemayhem (uppity wench) at May 27, 2024 02:32 PM (4XwPj)

139 Dead horses, everywhere, for days.

Posted by: CZ=FNG, Free State of Florida at May 27, 2024 02:33 PM (MkuC5)

140 Did he have standing orders to go? Did he have to wait for chain of command to make the decision and send orders?

And as we all know, MacArthur was a stickler for obeying orders.

Posted by: Archimedes at May 27, 2024 02:33 PM (CsUN+)

141
Dugout Doug's not timid,
He's just cautious, not afraid.
He is carefully protecting the four stars that Franklin gave.
Four-star generals are as rare as good food on Bataan.
And his troops go starving on.

Posted by: Hadrian the Seventh at May 27, 2024 02:33 PM (MoZTd)

142 Plenty of time. Ridiculous statement.
Posted by: polynikes

I guess it depends on your definition of "plenty." OK, that may be an overstatement. But he did have a window in which to act, and he did not act.

Posted by: Bulgaroctonus at May 27, 2024 02:34 PM (v6JzV)

143 Hadrian the Seventh

Yup. Their bench was not deep in Army Group Commanders.
I think Slim would have been better, but he was needed in Burma. The troops were not enthusiastic for other commanders like Alexander, Leese, Tug Wilson, Wavell, or Auchinleck. Even O'Connor was not the same. His release from being an Italian POW dampened his fire.

Posted by: NaCly Dog at May 27, 2024 02:34 PM (u82oZ)

144 Japan attacked the Philippines 10 hours after Pearl Harbor.

Posted by: polynikes at May 27, 2024 02:35 PM (SHMXB)

145 Nope, Pearl Harbor was first. Macarthur had plenty of warning time to mount a defense, but did nothing.
Posted by: Bulgaroctonus at May 27, 2024 02:29 PM (v6JzV)

This is something you could easily look up if you cared to.

The Nips started their invasion of the Phillipines on Dec 8, 1941.

The attack on Pearl started 10 hours before that. Just what the hel could Mac have done in 10 hours?

Posted by: Outside of Life at May 27, 2024 02:35 PM (89Sog)

146 October 1941 was the last time that the Germans were still odds on to win. By November Barbarossa had failed and there was no political solution that wouldn't have simply delayed the next war and made Hitler a laughingstock.

So, three and a half years of cat-and-mouse ensued, with the Germans in the role of the mouse.

Posted by: Cicero (@cicero43) at May 27, 2024 02:36 PM (guGkK)

147 118
Monty peaked at El Alemein.

Posted by: Hadrian the Seventh at May 27, 2024 02:24 PM (MoZTd)

Agreed. If you are not a fan of Monty (me too) I suggest reading "The Desert Generals" by Correlli Barnett. (He is a British, not Italian, historian). He takes Monty and his methods down several notches. It is an excellent book for getting an overview of the British side of the war in North Africa, from pre-war planning and training through Rommel being chased (not forced) out of Libya into Tunisia in late 1942.

Posted by: Gref at May 27, 2024 02:36 PM (5fDan)

148 There will probably be endless debate on MacArthur and the Phillipines. There is much acrimony and conflicting versions of what orders were and were not given in those confusing early hours of war between MacArthur's HQ and the USAAF HQ on what to do.

But what seems to have happened was all the planes were launched to get them off the ground. Then nothing happened and they were running out of fuel. So they started to land and that is when the Japanese struck. The result was the same as if they had been caught on the ground, destroyed.

Posted by: Anna Puma at May 27, 2024 02:36 PM (mO/OJ)

149 T-storm line heading my way very soon

Posted by: Skip at May 27, 2024 02:36 PM (fwDg9)

150 Right, but that's the point. The Brits were a spent force by '44, but we had to pretend they weren't, for political reasons.
Posted by: BurtTC at May 27, 2024 02:05 PM (YSg7h)

For a bitter sweet example of that, read about the Royal Navy trying to keep up with the US Navy in the last days of the Pacific War. The RN desperately wanted to be at the front of the battles, but what had once been the mightiest fighting force on Earth was reduced to being given charity supplies from the USN.

Posted by: Idaho Spudboy at May 27, 2024 02:36 PM (rHld2)

151 This is something you could easily look up if you cared to.

The Nips started their invasion of the Phillipines on Dec 8, 1941.

The attack on Pearl started 10 hours before that. Just what the hel could Mac have done in 10 hours?
Posted by: Outside of Life

OK, I did get my position from a boo I recently read, "How to Hide an Empire"," by Daniel Immerwahr. Recommended reading. So I'm not making this up on my own. I will try to find the relevant passage to cite.

Posted by: Bulgaroctonus at May 27, 2024 02:37 PM (v6JzV)

152 The attack on Pearl started 10 hours before that. Just what the hel could Mac have done in 10 hours?
Posted by: Outside of Life

In ten hours the military was still figuring out what the hell happened. They were assessing the damage and finding ships and men to defend the mainland and whatever was left of Pearl. Mac was still getting essential info about the attack and confabbing with chain of command. The man didn't have carte blanc to go shooting at people. That's not failure, it's reality.

Posted by: Madamemayhem (uppity wench) at May 27, 2024 02:41 PM (4XwPj)

153 Bulgaroctonus

I looked at How to Hide an Empire, by Daniel Immerwahr.

Very woke, so the foundations are suspect.

Posted by: NaCly Dog at May 27, 2024 02:41 PM (u82oZ)

154 This is something you could easily look up if you cared to.

The Nips started their invasion of the Phillipines on Dec 8, 1941.

The attack on Pearl started 10 hours before that. Just what the hel could Mac have done in 10 hours?
Posted by: Outside of Life at May 27, 2024 02:35 PM (89Sog)

I don't know enough about the Pacific theater, but I was of the belief that Mac was trapped with his men, and the Japs were pouring in with vastly superior numbers. He had nowhere to go, and not enough men to do anything, if he had.

I'm not sure how any of that was his fault. I know lots of people get mad at him for being ferried off the island, while his men stayed behind to get chewed up and captured.

Posted by: BurtTC at May 27, 2024 02:42 PM (3BL2E)

155 For a bitter sweet example of that, read about the Royal Navy trying to keep up with the US Navy in the last days of the Pacific War. The RN desperately wanted to be at the front of the battles, but what had once been the mightiest fighting force on Earth was reduced to being given charity supplies from the USN.

Given that Britain had effectively been at war with Germany since 1914, and had utterly bankrupted itself while we were still on the sidelines, it's hard not to feel a bit sorry for them. As the saying goes, they left nothing on the table.

I saw an article once that pinpointed the month (May, 1943, IIRC) in which Britain ceased to be the world's dominant power. It was then that the US had the larger navy, and more men in uniform than Britain could ever hope to match.

Posted by: Archimedes at May 27, 2024 02:43 PM (CsUN+)

156 I'm not sure how any of that was his fault. I know lots of people get mad at him for being ferried off the island, while his men stayed behind to get chewed up and captured.
Posted by: BurtTC at May 27, 2024 02:42 PM (3BL2E)

He was ordered off was my understanding. Leaving Wainwright to take command.

Posted by: polynikes at May 27, 2024 02:44 PM (SHMXB)

157 Civilized nations should always be willing to fight savages, where they are found. If not they must be fought in our homes.

Posted by: Eromero at May 27, 2024 02:44 PM (o2ZRX)

158 An edit to my #147 -

I wrote "...through Rommel being chased (not forced) out of Libya into Tunisia in late 1942.

I really meant to say that Rommel was FOLLOWED, not chased, out of Libya by Monty's 8th Army.

Posted by: Gref at May 27, 2024 02:44 PM (5fDan)

159 WW 1 was helluva devastating for UK. Devastating for the world really but the Brits were the ones who lost an entire generation of men.

Posted by: Madamemayhem (uppity wench) at May 27, 2024 02:45 PM (4XwPj)

160 BurtTC

The biggest failing of MacArthur was the failure to move supplies and troops to Bataan, as was in the pre-war planning. The PI forces could have held out a lot longer if he had been smarter.

Yes, he did not disperse his air force after PH. He was an idiot there.

Posted by: NaCly Dog at May 27, 2024 02:46 PM (u82oZ)

161 158 Gref

True.

Posted by: NaCly Dog at May 27, 2024 02:46 PM (u82oZ)

162 Yes, he did not disperse his air force after PH. He was an idiot there.
Posted by: NaCly Dog at May 27, 2024 02:46 PM (u82oZ

See Anna’s post above.

Posted by: polynikes at May 27, 2024 02:46 PM (SHMXB)

163 For a bitter sweet example of that, read about the Royal Navy trying to keep up with the US Navy in the last days of the Pacific War. The RN desperately wanted to be at the front of the battles, but what had once been the mightiest fighting force on Earth was reduced to being given charity supplies from the USN.
Posted by: Idaho Spudboy at May 27, 2024 02:36 PM (rHld2)

Yes, I have nothing but respect for the British people and their fighting men. I can even forgive Churchill (somewhat) for trying to insist on maintaining the facade.

But Monty should have known he didn't have the men, the material, nor the reinforcements that would be needed to hold up his end of the war effort in Europe. He kept making promises he couldn't keep. It cost many men their lives, needlessly.

Posted by: BurtTC at May 27, 2024 02:46 PM (3BL2E)

164 It was then that the US had the larger navy, and more men in uniform than Britain could ever hope to match.
Posted by: Archimedes

I recently read that, at the end of the war, the USN had over 6000 vessels (of all types) under it's command.

Posted by: Tonypete at May 27, 2024 02:47 PM (WXNFJ)

165 Here is the relevant passage:

"MacArthur had gotten the Hawai'i news. The news rang in his penthouse atop the Manila Hotel at 3:40 a.m., Philippine time. He dressed and rushed to headquarters.
But what happened next is impossible to say. For many hours, it appears, MacArthur did practically nothing. His air commander visited MacArthur's headquarters twice in repeated desperate bids for a meeting but saw only MacArthur's closed office door. Repeated warnings from Washington went unacknowledged; direct orders were ignored."
-- Daniel Immerwhr, How to Hide an Empire, p.188

Posted by: Bulgaroctonus at May 27, 2024 02:48 PM (v6JzV)

166
I don't know enough about the Pacific theater, but I was of the belief that Mac was trapped with his men, and the Japs were pouring in with vastly superior numbers. He had nowhere to go, and not enough men to do anything, if he had.
==============
Wiki, not always corrupted, notes that US and local forces outnumbered invasion force by 3:2. However, locals were very green and Japan used its best front line divisions.
Also, interesting note that Japanses thought they rolled over PI faster than the Krauts rolled over Poland so pulled their best units out... which prolonged suppression of the PI by months.

Posted by: Itinerant Alley Butcher at May 27, 2024 02:48 PM (cOq4q)

167 If SMH is still here....

Love you, lady. I hope you and ex-ex are doing well. I miss you.

Posted by: nurse ratched at May 27, 2024 02:48 PM (TEj9J)

168 "Clark had no radar, a remarkable decision given the fact the Philippines were always considered a more likely target than Hawaii. There was a Filipino-manned warning net, but it was short of training, telephones, and leadership.

The poor drainage meant that although Clark covered roughly fifty square miles, the heavy bombers couldn't be dispersed around it. They had to huddle together in the small area that didn't turn into a quagmire when it rained."

pg 78. Winged Victory: The Army Air Forces in World War Ii. Geoffrey Peret. Random House. New York. 1993.

Posted by: Anna Puma at May 27, 2024 02:49 PM (mO/OJ)

169 {{{nurse ratched }}}

All healed up?

Posted by: NaCly Dog at May 27, 2024 02:49 PM (u82oZ)

170 He was ordered off was my understanding. Leaving Wainwright to take command.
Posted by: polynikes at May 27, 2024 02:44 PM (SHMXB)

Correct, but many still hold a grudge, for him not staying.

Posted by: BurtTC at May 27, 2024 02:49 PM (3BL2E)

171 Pappy Eromero fought at Normandy to Saint Lo. I never heard him say ‘Dang, I wish I’d fought under McArthur.’

Posted by: Eromero at May 27, 2024 02:49 PM (o2ZRX)

172 By this time my Dad was just getting home. He had been fighting for 18 months thru North Africa, Sicily and Italy, having been wounded once. I was born 9 months later.

Posted by: javems at May 27, 2024 02:50 PM (8I4hW)

173 I looked at How to Hide an Empire, by Daniel Immerwahr.

Very woke, so the foundations are suspect.
Posted by: NaCly Dog

I didn't find it so. It seemed pretty even-handed to me. Gave both the pros and cons of American hegemony.

Posted by: Bulgaroctonus at May 27, 2024 02:50 PM (v6JzV)

174 polynikes

Anna Puma and I do agree on a few things. She is smart, knows her history very well, and is situationally aware. Unlike me.

Posted by: NaCly Dog at May 27, 2024 02:51 PM (u82oZ)

175 Hiya salty,

I did a bit more over the last few days than I should have and am very tired. I keep forgetting I'm not really 29 and need more time to recover.

Thank you.

I hope you and Mrs Salty are doing well and have not had any weather related disasters. I see your part of the country is getting hammered.

Peace be with you.

Posted by: nurse ratched at May 27, 2024 02:52 PM (TEj9J)

176
Yes, I have nothing but respect for the British people and their fighting men.

__________

When army generals during the Battle of Crete were concerned about naval losses during the evacuation of British troops, Admiral Andrew Cunningham said, "It takes the Navy three years to build a ship. It will take three hundred years to build a new tradition. The evacuation will continue."

Posted by: Hadrian the Seventh at May 27, 2024 02:53 PM (MoZTd)

177 >>>>WW 1 was helluva devastating for UK. Devastating for the world really but the Brits were the ones who lost an entire generation of men.
Posted by: Madamemayhem (uppity wench) at May 27, 2024 02:45 PM (4XwPj)
Yes. WW1 was a disasterous conflict with enormous (re:bad) effects across all of western Europe. The heartbreaking tragedy is that they, the European Elites, chose to do it to themselves in my humble and uninformed opinion.

Posted by: Rufus T. Firefly at May 27, 2024 02:53 PM (4cY1X)

178 Speaking of monopolies, I saw a Reno Nevada Monopoly game at a store.

Posted by: Humphreyrobot at May 27, 2024 02:54 PM (J8LnB)

179 Retaking the PI resulted in ~20k American KIA and ~420k Japanese KIA. I guess some tricks were learned about how to clear a dug-in enemy.

Posted by: Itinerant Alley Butcher at May 27, 2024 02:54 PM (cOq4q)

180 Pappy Eromero fought at Normandy to Saint Lo. I never heard him say ‘Dang, I wish I’d fought under McArthur.’
Posted by: Eromero at May 27, 2024 02:49 PM (o2ZRX)

Unless your leaders are complete dicks, most men tend to remain quite loyal to their commanders, regardless of their mistakes.

Posted by: BurtTC at May 27, 2024 02:54 PM (3BL2E)

181 A gentleman who lived around these parts was part of the Army Air Corps. Saw him at the little grocery store in town about a year before he passed. Was wearing his uniform for some veteran function, and humming "Over There". Seemed quite pleased with himself for still fitting into his uniform. " Never been altered" he said. His rank? Colonel.

Posted by: Madamemayhem (uppity wench) at May 27, 2024 02:55 PM (4XwPj)

182 Retaking the PI resulted in ~20k American KIA and ~420k Japanese KIA. I guess some tricks were learned about how to clear a dug-in enemy.

You didn't mention the hundreds of thousands of Filipinos who lost their lives; >100k in Manila alone.

Posted by: Archimedes at May 27, 2024 02:56 PM (CsUN+)

183 Yes, I have nothing but respect for the British people and their fighting men.

__________

When army generals during the Battle of Crete were concerned about naval losses during the evacuation of British troops, Admiral Andrew Cunningham said, "It takes the Navy three years to build a ship. It will take three hundred years to build a new tradition. The evacuation will continue."
Posted by: Hadrian the Seventh at May 27, 2024 02:53 PM (MoZTd)

Speaking of proud British moments, a Brit banjo player took Nazi Pelousy at the Oxford debates, turned her over and spanked her flabby arse in front of the whole world.

Posted by: BurtTC at May 27, 2024 02:57 PM (3BL2E)

184 He thought the US State Dept was overtly commie then.

-

Hmm...

Posted by: Moron Robbie - minus religion, name one benefit for men getting married at May 27, 2024 02:58 PM (DJbC6)

185 Battleground is my favorite WW2 movie for it’s ending alone.

Posted by: polynikes

An absolute classic film, which I've not seen since I was a yute. Really must remedy that oversight soon.

Posted by: Sharkman at May 27, 2024 02:58 PM (3ULj5)

186 Speaking of monopolies, I saw a Reno Nevada Monopoly game at a store.
Posted by: Humphreyrobot at May 27, 2024 02:54 PM (J8LnB)

I think there's Monopoly versions of just about everything. In the latest Clarkson's Farm series, their shop was selling a Cotswolds Monopoly game.

Posted by: spindrift at May 27, 2024 02:58 PM (OguvZ)

187 "News of the Pearl Harbor attack reached the Philippines in the early hours of December 8. The other shoe was surely about to fall. What was discussed and decided between MacArthur, his chief of staff, Major General Richard K. Sutherland, and Brereton, while they waited for its descent has never been settled. They probably talked of sending a reconnaissance mission to Formosa, then mounting an attack with the B-17s. But just who said what or did what is a mystery. No two accounts by those involved agree.

Formosa was fogged over on the morning of December 8. When the fog cleared, it gave way to a south moving intertropical front. Roughly 150 bombers and nearly 100 Zeros took off from Formosan airfields and hid in the weather all the way to Luzon. The clouds broke over the mountains. At 1240 fifty-four Japanese bombers appeared over Clark in two perfect V-formations. There wasn't an American fighter in the sky. Four P-40s were hurriedly scrambled, but stood no chance of reaching the bombers."

pg 79. Ibid.

Posted by: Anna Puma at May 27, 2024 02:59 PM (mO/OJ)

188 My father was a Marine in Korea 51-52. He never talked about it but also never bad mouthed any of the commanders when they were mentioned. In fact it’s his copy of American Caesar that I have on my bookshelf now.

Posted by: polynikes at May 27, 2024 02:59 PM (SHMXB)

189 My cousin and I are related thru our dads. His grandfather on his mom side was knee deep in ugly at Iwo Jima. That man personified the word Marine.

Posted by: Madamemayhem (uppity wench) at May 27, 2024 03:00 PM (4XwPj)

190 I think there's Monopoly versions of just about everything. In the latest Clarkson's Farm series, their shop was selling a Cotswolds Monopoly game.
Posted by: spindrift
-

this.

I think - once board games became a niche product aimed at people who could read and who also occasoinally tried to spend time with their family - the folks at Monopoly realized they needed to sell every available niche they could. There are towns, colleges, and my favorite: monopoly games based on popular video games.

Posted by: Moron Robbie - minus religion, name one benefit for men getting married at May 27, 2024 03:01 PM (DJbC6)

191 You didn't mention the hundreds of thousands of Filipinos who lost their lives; >100k in Manila alone.
Posted by: Archimedes at May 27, 2024 02:56 PM (CsUN+

Mostly executed by the Japanese.

Posted by: polynikes at May 27, 2024 03:01 PM (SHMXB)

192 Gaza Monopoly.

Posted by: Humphreyrobot at May 27, 2024 03:02 PM (J8LnB)

193 Though it was a key victory, Falaise could have been far more decisive. However, the British douche-nozzle, Bernard Law Montgomery was too slow to close the gap and George S. Patton was told to halt his advance by Eisenhower (in order to avoid a potential accidental clash between the British and American forces). Patton was livid as he had to sit and watch over 50,000 German soldiers escape the pocket and fight another day.

Montgomery was the British hero of the war. And though successful, he lack aggression and he generally won via set-piece battles in which he had overwhelming numbers. Not exactly the best way to describe your best resume entries.

Posted by: Big Sam at May 27, 2024 03:03 PM (ULArf)

194 You didn't mention the hundreds of thousands of Filipinos who lost their lives; >100k in Manila alone.
Posted by: Archimedes

The japanese were not gracious in victory or loss and had a penchant for killing helpless civilians... which may explain why pretty much every last jap in PI was killed. It's one thing to be all bushido and claim surrender is not an option when the decision is yours, quite another when your pinned down and the soon to be victor decides.

Posted by: Itinerant Alley Butcher at May 27, 2024 03:04 PM (cOq4q)

195 Gaza Monopoly.
Posted by: Humphreyrobot at May 27, 2024 03:02 PM (J8Ln

Mediterranean Ave is prime real estate.

Posted by: polynikes at May 27, 2024 03:05 PM (SHMXB)

196 Gaza Monopoly.

--

The entire board is $65 brown squares.

Posted by: Moron Robbie - minus religion, name one benefit for men getting married at May 27, 2024 03:05 PM (DJbC6)

197 Gaza Monopoly.
Posted by: Humphreyrobot

Get blown to Hell. Do not pass go. Do not collect 97 virgins.

Posted by: Anonosaurus Wrecks, I've Been Through the Desert On a Horse With No Shame at May 27, 2024 03:07 PM (L/fGl)

198 Gaza Monopoly.
Posted by: Humphreyrobot

One of the corner spaces is "Go To Hell".

Posted by: Tonypete at May 27, 2024 03:08 PM (WXNFJ)

199 So is Egypt gonna go into Gaza?

Posted by: Bulgaroctonus at May 27, 2024 03:08 PM (v6JzV)

200 Ah, there is a nood.

Posted by: Bulgaroctonus at May 27, 2024 03:11 PM (v6JzV)

201 "There is a political consideration... The Philippine Islands, an American protected commonwealth, was not technically at war with Japan. If the Americans, using the Philippines as a base for attacks against the Japanese, went to war prematurely, it would involve a still neutral nation.

Whatever the reasons, no order was issued to bomb-up the B-17s even though hours before, the United States and Japan were at war. Hoping to avoid a repetition of the destruction as Pearl Harbor, Major David Gibbs, operations officer of the 19th Bombardment Group and in charge during the absence of Colonel Eubank (then at Brereton's headquarters), ordered all the flyable B-17s into the air. Word had come down that Japanese planes were approaching and while P-40s rose to meet them, the B-17s were ordered to patrol the waters round Luzon until ordered to return to Clark."

pg 50. Flying Fortress: The illustrated biography of the B-17s and the men who flew them. Edward Jablonski. Doubleday & Co. New York. 1965.

Posted by: Anna Puma at May 27, 2024 03:22 PM (mO/OJ)

202 Thanks for the video on Falaise. John Keegan's classic book "Five Armies in Normandy" goes into the battle around Falaise in some detail.

Posted by: Nemo at May 27, 2024 03:25 PM (S6ArX)

203 "When Eubank returned to Clark he ordered the B-17s back to prepare for the as yet not authorized photo mission to Formosa (three planes) and to get the rest of the planes ready for an attack. The Fortresses returned to the field to fuel up and to take on 100-pound and 300-pound bombs. Plans were initiated to prepare the B-17s at Del Monte for offensive action. The noon hour was approaching while the men at Clark Field worked feverishly. The three B-17s began to taxi out to begin taking off on the photo mission.

These three planes were destroyed by the first bombs to hit Clark Field. High altitude bombers began to drop their bombs some time after noon upon the two squadrons of B-17s lined up on the field."

pg 50-51. Ibid.

Posted by: Anna Puma at May 27, 2024 03:28 PM (mO/OJ)

204 Cotswolds Monopoly game.

Tell me it has Father Brown in a Top-hat.

Posted by: DaveA at May 27, 2024 03:29 PM (FhXTo)

205 "There is a political consideration... The Philippine Islands, an American protected commonwealth, was not technically at war with Japan. If the Americans, using the Philippines as a base for attacks against the Japanese, went to war prematurely, it would involve a still neutral nation."
=================
Protected commonwealth is an overlooked nuance.

While just another US Territory on many levels, it was always the US intent to cut the PI free. So, the attack on Pearl Harbor, which the US had no intent of giving up at any time, was an attack on the US, it didn't mean Japan was at war with any other place just because the US had a pressence there.

Ironically, Pearl Harbor was attacked solely because of the US presense in the PI which was Japan's real target.

Sidebar - did Japan declare war on the PI or just go ahead and assrape them which they seemed to do all over "their" asia.

Posted by: Itinerant Alley Butcher at May 27, 2024 03:37 PM (cOq4q)

206 VII Corps!!!
Jayhawk!!!

Posted by: Diogenes at May 27, 2024 03:38 PM (bvWAj)

207 very superb blog
https://mozodeals.com/

Posted by: mozodeals at May 28, 2024 11:12 PM (gGUHg)

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