THE MORNING RANT: Distorted Markets - Tesla’s Amazing Revenue Stream from EV Credits; Also, Things Keep Getting Worse for Rivian

Whenever I write about electric vehicles, I receive emails from EV enthusiasts advising me to “educate yourself” about EVs, and challenging me to explain why Tesla is so successful if EVs are so awful.

As I’ve often stated, I would have no quarrel with Tesla (or any other EV) as a luxury/boutique product for the affluent, if leftists weren’t trying to outlaw internal combustion cars for the rest of us.

But since I’ve been challenged to “educate myself” about Tesla’s success, I’ve taken a deeper look, and what I see is Tesla pulling in about $12,000 per unit from sources other than their paying customers, all due to market distorting forces imposed by government dictates.

By being all-electric, Tesla earns various government credits for exceeding arbitrary thresholds on carbon emissions and EV sales. These arbitrary thresholds are set by the climate communists that control California and other left-wing governments. Other auto manufacturers who don’t sell many EVs can be fined or prohibited from doing business in those locales for not meeting those thresholds. So instead, they are paying Tesla for its excess credits to remain compliant with the laws of those states.

How much is Tesla earning this way? There are two kinds of credits Tesla is selling:

1) ZEV (Zero Emissions Vehicle) Credits
2) Carbon Credits

Teslas also qualify for $7,500 of federal tax credits for each unit sold. Here is how it adds up:

ZEV Credits = approx. $3,500 per Tesla sold
Carbon Credits = approx. $1,350 per Tesla sold
US EV Tax Credit = $7,500 per vehicle sold

This totals up to $12,350 per unit!

So, above and beyond the cash that comes from the Tesla customer who buys a new EV, Tesla will also receive an additional $12k from other manufacturers and from your tax dollars.

What this really means is that when you buy your preferred mass-market gas-powered vehicle, even in a sane state like Tennessee, part of the price you pay is the vigorish that will flow to Tesla to allow your car’s manufacturer to continue to sell ICE (internal combustion engine) vehicles in California and similar states.

And as for that $7,500 of federal tax credit, the next time some phony ”budget hawk” in a think tank or in Congress starts to talk about “cutting entitlements” due to the budget deficit, please tell him to first stop sending my tax money to Elon Musk and his affluent customers, then maybe we can talk about entitlements.

Before I continue with my rant, here a few quick links supporting my figures.

Tesla Carbon Credit Sales Reach Record $1.78 Billion in 2022

Tesla sold 1.31 million new cars in 2022, so this $1.78 billion in carbon credit sales equals about $1,350 per unit.

The $3,500 per unit for ZEV credits comes from this article in Teslarati, quoting Automotive News.

Tesla booked about $2.1 billion in revenue from credit sales in 2021 and Q1 2022. And while the value of a ZEV credit could be flexible depending on demand, it appeared that Tesla averaged about $3,500 each, according to Auto News.

These are the electric vehicles that qualify for a $7,500 tax credit

Now back to my rant…

Those who argue that all other manufacturers can do exactly what Tesla is doing are wrong. That $12k per unit evaporates if/when all vehicles are electric, since there would not be an ICE manufacturer needing to buy such credits. Nor would the government need to keep paying car buyers $7,500 per unit to buy EVs once there is no longer the preferable alternative of an ICE car.

In addition, the threshold for EV market share is rising in those communist states, thus reducing the ability to generate future credits for exceeding it.

California is raising the minimum market share of EVs to 35% by 2026, 68% by 2030, and to 100% by 2035, which means that Tesla’s EV credits are going away.

California is also planning to assess a $20k penalty to manufacturers for every car that falls short of the required threshold.

To ensure enforcement, state officials could penalize manufacturers that don’t meet their yearly percentages with hefty fines of $20,000 for every car they fail to produce in a given year, according to air board staff. Automakers that fail to meet those requirements would need to get credits from another manufacturer that already met their targets.

That $20k per unit fine paid to the state of California is going to be spread over gas-powered vehicles sold in the rest of the country, driving up the price in all 50 states. This will further distort the marketplace, and make reliable transportation even less obtainable for the poor.

It is exasperating to hear anyone claim that Tesla is a free market success story. No, Tesla is a niche product that has obtained unprecedented regulatory favor. Other businesses (e.g. ICE car manufacturers) who do not even want to compete in Tesla’s line of business (EVs) are forced to pay millions of dollars to Tesla for the privilege of not competing with Tesla. That’s what EV fanboys call a “market economy.”

*****

Gov. Brian Kemp’s Rivian Boondoggle Keeps Looking Worse

Since we’re on the topic of EVs today, let’s take a quick look at Rivian, the EV startup that seduced Governor Brian Kemp into the biggest tax giveaway in Georgia history.

Things are not looking good for Rivian.

A few years ago, the fawning media coverage of Rivian focused on its tens of thousands of pre-orders.

Rivian Faces an Insurmountable Wall of Electric Truck Pre-Orders [12/31/2021]

While the company has over 70,000 R1T pre-orders on its plate, customers only pay a $1,000 refundable deposit to reserve their vehicle. And that brings us to Rivian’s second, very big problem; it can’t make cars fast enough.

That word “refundable” is kind of important.

Cancelation Crazy: Rivian Pre-Orders Bailing in Huge Numbers - Investors Want Investigation [3/03/2022]

The pre-orders have apparently bailed, because Rivian is now begging potential customers to come to its Illinois car factory and buy an EV on the spot. No wait.

Rivian Offers Same Day Delivery to Customers Visiting its Normal, IL Facility… Like a ‘Normal’ Car Company [6/09/2023]

Saturday, June 17, Rivian is opening the doors of its service center in Normal, Illinois to the public for a “Same Day Delivery Sales Event.” The event will take place all day to entice prospective Rivian customers to come check out the space and hopefully take delivery of a new R1T.

If there were a backlog of pre-orders to fill, Rivian wouldn’t be trying to get people to come to the factory and make these trucks go away.

And if the Illinois plant is already producing more Rivians than customers will buy, there will not be a new plant in Georgia. Sorry, Governor Kemp. You’ve been had.

Here’s another possible way to make a Rivian go away…plug it into a charger.

Rivian R1T EV Pickup Combusts at Electrify America Charging Station [Motor Trend – 6/06/2023]

In addition, Rivian’s imploding stock is being removed from the Nasdaq 100 index.

Commenter “dhmosquito” provided this helpful photo of the quickest way for a Rivian to travel across Wyoming. It might be the safest way too.

[buck.throckmorton at protonmail dot com]

Posted by: Buck Throckmorton at 11:00 AM

Comments

(Jump to bottom of comments)

1 st!

Posted by: Joe Mannix (Not a cop!) at June 16, 2023 11:00 AM (t0OGg)

2 Last thread discussed the sidebar funniest moments in TV. My first thought?
https://youtu.be/wDYNVH0U3cs

Posted by: Moron Analyst at June 16, 2023 11:01 AM (NCgXW)

3 Pondering hoe much down time to drive a EV 130,000 miles, especially a truck

Posted by: Skip at June 16, 2023 11:02 AM (yQzOF)

4 Ugly looking truck too. No wonder Rivian is sinking.

Posted by: Martini Farmer at June 16, 2023 11:02 AM (Q4IgG)

5 What was the early EV that lost out to ice vehicles?

Posted by: BignJames at June 16, 2023 11:03 AM (AwYPR)

6 hiya

Posted by: JT at June 16, 2023 11:03 AM (T4tVD)

7 Simple way to avoid the Climate Change Vig is to buy and upgrade used cars. Preferably, ones that don't spy on you.

Posted by: Pudinhead at June 16, 2023 11:03 AM (J7wri)

8 The Babylon Bee @TheBabylonBee · 2h
Anthropologists Now Believe All-Female Amazon Tribe Collapsed Because Nobody Could Get Any Jars Open
https://tinyurl.com/yydhee6s

[Great illustration.]

Posted by: andycanuck (Vwz3I) at June 16, 2023 11:03 AM (Vwz3I)

9 Too much math.

Posted by: nurse ratched at June 16, 2023 11:03 AM (sX0a6)

10 *pops corn*

Posted by: G'rump928(c) at June 16, 2023 11:03 AM (aD39U)

11 Other auto manufacturers who don’t sell many EVs can be fined or prohibited from doing business in those locales for not meeting those thresholds. So instead, they are paying Tesla for its excess credits to remain compliant with the laws of those states.
++++
So Tesla - having no non-EV products - has a "surplus" of ZEV "credits" and so resells them to manufacturers that have a "deficit" of ZEV credits, allowing those manufacturers to hit regulatory requirements around EV sales even if they have few - or no - EV sales at all?

A scheme this preposterous could only have been cooked up by a Wall Street banker.

Posted by: Joe Mannix (Not a cop!) at June 16, 2023 11:04 AM (t0OGg)

12 Simple way to avoid the Climate Change Vig is to buy and upgrade used cars. Preferably, ones that don't spy on you.

In which case, the price of used cars will skyrocket. TANSTAAFL.

Posted by: Archimedes at June 16, 2023 11:04 AM (eOEVl)

13 I finally saw a Rivian truck the other day here in the outer fringes of the swamp.

No matter how truthful the reporting on electric vehicles is; we WILL have them shoved down our throats, like it or not. The Powers That Be want them, like it or not, just as things went the way they did in China during the Great Leap Forward no matter how divorced from reality they were.

Posted by: Catch Thirty-Thr33 at June 16, 2023 11:05 AM (odBp6)

14 and make reliable transportation even less obtainable for the poor.

The idea that common people can just hop in a car and go somewhere without being dependent on Big Daddy Government's train and bus schedules is heresy to these cretins.

Posted by: NR Pax at June 16, 2023 11:05 AM (4olE8)

15 This will further distort the marketplace, and make reliable transportation even less obtainable for the poor.

Heh.

Posted by: 1-800-Cash-For-Clunkers at June 16, 2023 11:05 AM (a3Q+t)

16 Holy Market Distortion, EV Man! From Best Number 1 Country, fields of EVs sitting around rotting. Scam Cars comes to mind...

https://youtu.be/1SEfwoqKRU8

Posted by: Lost In Space at June 16, 2023 11:06 AM (qxLut)

17 Can cash for battery operated clunkers be far behind?

Excelsior! Eureka.
You don't smell that great either toots, nyuk, nyuk, wooboobooboooooo

Posted by: micky at June 16, 2023 11:06 AM (3byMq)

18 12 Simple way to avoid the Climate Change Vig is to buy and upgrade used cars. Preferably, ones that don't spy on you.

In which case, the price of used cars will skyrocket. TANSTAAFL.
----------------
Importing oodles of illiterate aliens means a great support for used car prices. Notice, they aren't dumb. They buy big used SUVs and trucks.

Posted by: Pudinhead at June 16, 2023 11:06 AM (J7wri)

19 Funniest in last 20 years? Don't know.
Funnies all time: https://youtu.be/BGFtV6-ALoQ

Posted by: I am the Shadout Mapes, the Housekeeper at June 16, 2023 11:06 AM (PiwSw)

20 FIRST!!!!!

Posted by: Sponge - F*ck Joe Biden at June 16, 2023 11:06 AM (Zz0t1)

21 Shorter:

EV = SCAM

Posted by: Sponge - F*ck Joe Biden at June 16, 2023 11:07 AM (Zz0t1)

22 Oh, and good to see that CA has a command economy in full effect. (The market rejects EVs? Too bad.)

Posted by: Catch Thirty-Thr33 at June 16, 2023 11:07 AM (odBp6)

23 I guess we'll see...

Julie Kelly @julie_kelly2
Update on J6 footage: After days of reviewing CCTV in DC, Speaker McCarthy’s office has produced to me a significant portion of video that does not compromise Capitol security. I’ll be working on clips with accompanying reporting and body worn camera recordings over next several weeks.

Asking for patience as I ensure this footage presents a different angle of Jan 6 and protects those who might be at risk from groups like Sedition Hunters. Also I want package this video in a way that portrays a fuller account of what happened that day. More to come…

Posted by: andycanuck (Vwz3I) at June 16, 2023 11:07 AM (Vwz3I)

24 Pondering hoe much down time to drive a EV 130,000 miles, especially a truck
Posted by: Skip at June 16, 2023 11:02 AM

Lots, hopefully.

Posted by: Lot Lizards at June 16, 2023 11:07 AM (a3Q+t)

25 This guy does tons of China videos, showing the true issues with the economy and government. They're wasting tons of EV vehicles: https://youtu.be/1SEfwoqKRU8

Posted by: Moron Analyst at June 16, 2023 11:08 AM (NCgXW)

26 This math is probably why buying Tweeter at a high price will turn out to make Elon money. Being able to influence both sides of the aisle via media is schmartz.

Posted by: Pudinhead at June 16, 2023 11:08 AM (J7wri)

27 What was the early EV that lost out to ice vehicles?
Posted by: BignJames

1899?

Posted by: rickb223 at June 16, 2023 11:09 AM (nW4TA)

28 Rivian vehicles are some of the most hideous on the road, if you can find one on the road.

Posted by: Sponge - F*ck Joe Biden at June 16, 2023 11:09 AM (Zz0t1)

29 Raining purdy good here....

Posted by: JT at June 16, 2023 11:09 AM (T4tVD)

30 Too much math.
Posted by: nurse ratched at June 16, 2023 11:03 AM

Have you considered complaining to Management?

Posted by: Duncanthrax at June 16, 2023 11:10 AM (a3Q+t)

31 11 Other auto manufacturers who don’t sell many EVs can be fined or prohibited from doing business in those locales for not meeting those thresholds. So instead, they are paying Tesla for its excess credits to remain compliant with the laws of those states.
++++
So Tesla - having no non-EV products - has a "surplus" of ZEV "credits" and so resells them to manufacturers that have a "deficit" of ZEV credits, allowing those manufacturers to hit regulatory requirements around EV sales even if they have few - or no - EV sales at all?

A scheme this preposterous could only have been cooked up by a Wall Street banker.
Posted by: Joe Mannix (Not a cop!) at June 16, 2023 11:04 AM (t0OGg)

Yeah, carbon credits are a Finance industry baby. Get a cut to run the market for these fictional credits.

Posted by: Red Turban Someguy - The Republic is already dead! at June 16, 2023 11:10 AM (eYoxG)

32 well, completely missed the Art thread today

Posted by: ghost of hallelujah, yeah, it's ops at June 16, 2023 11:10 AM (sJHOI)

33 This guy does tons of China videos, showing the true issues with the economy and government. They're wasting tons of EV vehicles: https://youtu.be/1SEfwoqKRU8
Posted by: Moron Analyst at June 16, 2023 11:08 AM (NCgXW)

It's China. Their actions should surprise NO ONE at this point.

Posted by: Sponge - F*ck Joe Biden at June 16, 2023 11:10 AM (Zz0t1)

34 What was the early EV that lost out to ice vehicles?
Posted by: BignJames

1899?
Posted by: rickb223 at June 16, 2023 11:09 AM (nW4TA)

Think it might have been Baker...research is all over the place.

Posted by: BignJames at June 16, 2023 11:11 AM (AwYPR)

35 A scheme this preposterous could only have been cooked up by a Wall Street banker.

You haven't heard about RECs (renewable energy credits) in the electrical industry.

Posted by: A Provocative Parade Of Perverts! at June 16, 2023 11:11 AM (2tUFv)

36 My working theory on EV's is that they'll never be produced in the numbers people think. That's by design. As companies build fewer ICE vehicles, but also don't ramp up production of EV's due to (pick any reason you want) the overall supply of personal vehicles will dwindle. That's by design too.

Then, look at the electrical infrastructure. It's not being built out to support EV's. That's by design as well.

Eventually personally owned transportation will be scarce. That's the plan. A mobile public is difficult to subjugate. So make the public unable to freely move about with ease.

Posted by: Martini Farmer at June 16, 2023 11:12 AM (Q4IgG)

37 How long until California bans the sale of gasoline? You know it’s coming.

Posted by: John Kerry at June 16, 2023 11:12 AM (u73oe)

38 14: “Oh, so you wrote your Congressman protesting our policies? Well, that was a nice SmarTrip card you had there. Too bad it doesn’t work and now you can’t get to work or do anything else, unless you are willing to walk…”

Posted by: Catch Thirty-Thr33 at June 16, 2023 11:13 AM (odBp6)

39 37 How long until California bans the sale of gasoline? You know it’s coming.
Posted by: John Kerry at June 16, 2023 11:12 AM (u73oe)

Hopefully sooner rather than later. It can serve as an example.

Posted by: Red Turban Someguy - The Republic is already dead! at June 16, 2023 11:13 AM (eYoxG)

40 That $20k per unit fine paid to the state of California is going to be spread over gas-powered vehicles sold in the rest of the country, driving up the price in all 50 states. ...
++++
Possibly. The other possibility is that those companies quit doing business in the state.

$20k is a lot of money. It's 2/3 the cost of a brand new low-mid trim Camry. That's going to be hard to hoover up from the rest of the market on sales elsewhere. California represents about 10% of the US car market. Using Toyota as an example, it moved about 2.3 million units in 2021, implying that about 230k of them were sold in CA. The total cost in penalties at $20k each would be $4.6 billion. The penalty would amount to $2,222 per car sold elsewhere in the United States. On Toyota's average per-vehicle price of around $40k, that represents a 5.5% price increase *just* to satisfy the CA penalty if they try to shift it over the rest of the country.

At that price, the company that blinks first and chooses not to business in CA will win, because their prices will be several percentage points lower than the competition's.

Posted by: Joe Mannix (Not a cop!) at June 16, 2023 11:13 AM (t0OGg)

41 Oops

Posted by: Duke Lowell at June 16, 2023 11:13 AM (u73oe)

42 37 How long until California bans the sale of gasoline? You know it’s coming.
------------------
That is the one thing that might turn Californians into Mad Max vs Lord Humongous.

Posted by: Pudinhead at June 16, 2023 11:13 AM (J7wri)

43 Any kind of offset credit - same a cutting a foot off the top of a blanket and sewing it onto the bottom of the blanket and thinking you made a longer blanket.

Because I don't do something, you can do twice as much and it's still the same.

Posted by: rickb223 at June 16, 2023 11:14 AM (nW4TA)

44 The only reason I got solar panels about a decade ago was due to the incentives that made financial sense. There was the Fed tax credit (not deduction, but a tax credit--wiped out my Fed tax the year I put in the panels), Kali state Solar initiative that added a few $thousand to the pot (my panels are south-facing and just 0.5° off of the perfect angle, so got 98% of that). Otherwise, they didn't make financial sense. You can say the same for Teslas. Gov't thumb (on more than one level) on the scales.

Posted by: jim (in Kalifornia) at June 16, 2023 11:15 AM (ynpvh)

45 While the company has over 70,000 R1T pre-orders on its plate, customers only pay a $1,000 refundable deposit to reserve their vehicle. And that brings us to Rivian’s second, very big problem; it can’t make cars fast enough.
++++
Neither could Tesla during it's several years of "production hell." If - and it's big damn if - Rivian can maintain enthusiasm through production hell, they might be able to pull it off.

But Rivian doesn't seem to be able to maintain that enthusiasm. It just isn't cool enough and the idea isn't new enough, there's robust competition and the head hencho doesn't have Elon Musk's reality distortion field.

If I were a betting man, I'd bet against Rivian. This isn't 15 years ago anymroe.

Posted by: Joe Mannix (Not a cop!) at June 16, 2023 11:15 AM (t0OGg)

46 42 37 How long until California bans the sale of gasoline? You know it’s coming.
------------------
That is the one thing that might turn Californians into Mad Max vs Lord Humongous.

Posted by: Pudinhead at June 16, 2023 11:13 AM (J7wri)

Maybe my cousin in Mexico was right in running his car off propane...

Posted by: jim (in Kalifornia) at June 16, 2023 11:15 AM (ynpvh)

47 Up until a few years ago, Tesla earned more from carbon credits than from selling vehicles.

Posted by: Thomas Paine at June 16, 2023 11:16 AM (mkX9A)

48 Some people didn't get the memo about Pride Month.

From Twitter:

❗️Last nights USA 🇺🇸 v Mexico 🇲🇽 match was stopped TWICE due to homophobic chants.

The CONCACAF Nations League match, taking place at the Allegiant Stadium in Vegas, was finished early after the second time.

𝕋𝕙𝕖𝕣𝕖 𝕚𝕤 𝕤𝕠 𝕞𝕦𝕔𝕙 𝕥𝕠 𝕕𝕠❗️

Doubtless all those MAGA Trump supporters attending --checks notes-- a soccer match.

More Twitter:

I went to the national league championship in 2021 against Mexico where we won.

They stopped the game then too. Mexican fans make up 70% of the stadium and they yell “f*ggot” a lot in Spanish and a bunch of other discriminatory things. Like all game lol. FIFA had to step in and stop it or would penalize the team.

Posted by: A Provocative Parade Of Perverts! at June 16, 2023 11:16 AM (2tUFv)

49 I know there's no accounting for taste and that beauty is in the eye of the beholder, but I think the Rivian front end is uglier than hammered sin.

Posted by: Joe Mannix (Not a cop!) at June 16, 2023 11:16 AM (t0OGg)

50 I can't smoke near the gas pump because people believe the gas fumes will magically fly 10 feet away and erupt into a fiery explosion when they contact the embers of my cigarette.

And yet vehicles that spontaneously combust are being mandated by the government.

Posted by: Bitter Clinger at June 16, 2023 11:16 AM (IAwid)

51 This guy does tons of China videos, showing the true issues with the economy and government. They're wasting tons of EV vehicles: https://youtu.be/1SEfwoqKRU8

The guy points out the environmental damage incurred in making all those tightly-packed rotting cars. What he misses is that it will take only one of them to catch on fire, and the whole field will eventually go up in flames.

Posted by: Archimedes at June 16, 2023 11:16 AM (eOEVl)

52 They're not *supposed* to work for you peasants. Only the important people will have cars.

Posted by: WEF at June 16, 2023 11:17 AM (llON8)

53 Putting aside all the fuckery with credits and shit, it's not just rich people in San Francisco who drive them. That may have been the case 4, 5 years ago, but that's long gone. Go to any suburban parking lot and you'll see as many Model 3s as you will Accords.

Posted by: Montec at June 16, 2023 11:17 AM (OalnH)

54 48 That’s hilarious.

Posted by: Bulgaroctonus at June 16, 2023 11:18 AM (Vk308)

55 There are reports in from China that claim the result of China trying to produce more EVs than Tesla, so as to gain 'street cred' with the climate crowd, now has thousands (if not 10's of thousands) of EVs filling fields in China. These are, at last look, fully functioning EVs with registrations.

Posted by: SMOD at June 16, 2023 11:18 AM (RHGPo)

56 49 I know there's no accounting for taste and that beauty is in the eye of the beholder, but I think the Rivian front end is uglier than hammered sin.
Posted by: Joe Mannix (Not a cop!) at June 16, 2023 11:16 AM
Double Edsel.

Posted by: Eromero at June 16, 2023 11:18 AM (Uv0D2)

57 Maybe my cousin in Mexico was right in running his car off propane...
------------------
I remember a number of people did that in the 70s due to gas costs and shortages and really big fucking land boat cars. I remember a Cadillac convertible Eldorado with a huge propane tank in the truck. Really nice ride and the oil stayed clean.

Posted by: Pudinhead at June 16, 2023 11:19 AM (J7wri)

58 Wife works for a major auto manufacturer and mostly works from home. So I get to hear a lot of her virtual meetings with suppliers and coworkers.

They don't spend a ton of time talking about it in this context. But it's ALL top-down, central-planning bullshit. And they all know it.

Posted by: ghost of hallelujah, yeah, it's ops at June 16, 2023 11:19 AM (sJHOI)

59 Neither could Tesla during it's several years of "production hell." If - and it's big damn if - Rivian can maintain enthusiasm through production hell, they might be able to pull it off.

But Rivian doesn't seem to be able to maintain that enthusiasm. It just isn't cool enough and the idea isn't new enough, there's robust competition and the head hencho doesn't have Elon Musk's reality distortion field.

If I were a betting man, I'd bet against Rivian. This isn't 15 years ago anymroe.
Posted by: Joe Mannix

You thought the Chip problem during covid was bad, wait'll the battery crunch hits.

When they can't get batteries fast enough to put in cars already made.

Posted by: rickb223 at June 16, 2023 11:19 AM (nW4TA)

60 >>> 31 11 Other auto manufacturers who don’t sell many EVs can be fined or prohibited from doing business in those locales for not meeting those thresholds. So instead, they are paying Tesla for its excess credits to remain compliant with the laws of those states.
++++
So Tesla - having no non-EV products - has a "surplus" of ZEV "credits" and so resells them to manufacturers that have a "deficit" of ZEV credits, allowing those manufacturers to hit regulatory requirements around EV sales even if they have few - or no - EV sales at all?

A scheme this preposterous could only have been cooked up by a Wall Street banker.
Posted by: Joe Mannix (Not a cop!) at June 16, 2023 11:04 AM (t0OGg)

Yeah, carbon credits are a Finance industry baby. Get a cut to run the market for these fictional credits.
Posted by: Red Turban Someguy - The Republic is already dead! at June 16, 2023 11:10 AM (eYoxG)

Now do whoever came up with "social" "security".

Posted by: Helena Handbasket at June 16, 2023 11:19 AM (llON8)

61 That stupid fuck Thunderf00t was bagging on Musk as usual, using the Chinese sales data to show how Berksire Hathaway outmaneuvered him in EV investment, and will cause Elon to be bankrupt in 5 years.

Posted by: Cat Ass Trophy at June 16, 2023 11:19 AM (WGUfL)

62 Putting aside all the fuckery with credits and shit, it's not just rich people in San Francisco who drive them. That may have been the case 4, 5 years ago, but that's long gone. Go to any suburban parking lot and you'll see as many Model 3s as you will Accords.
Posted by: Montec at June 16, 2023 11:17 AM (OalnH)
++++
And they're still more expensive. The Telsa is still a status symbol, it's just a status symbol within the sub-market. The guy who buys the Model 3 *could* have bought a BMW 3-series, he just chose to get a different status car. It's now a mainstream status car like BMW or Audi.

Higher up, the guy who buys the Model S is in the same position. He got it instead of a Porsche or similar.

That's not a knock. If that's what you want, go for it. But Tesla being more mainstream now does not mean it's not still a car for affluent/status-conscious buyers. There's a mighty big market for those buyers.

Posted by: Joe Mannix (Not a cop!) at June 16, 2023 11:20 AM (t0OGg)

63 𝕋𝕙𝕖𝕣𝕖 𝕚𝕤 𝕤𝕠 𝕞𝕦𝕔𝕙 𝕥𝕠 𝕕𝕠❗️

The Ruling Class likes to pretend that they "Celebrate Diversity"; indeed, that other cultures (particularly nonwhite ones) are superior to American culture.

But disagree with them on any issue the Ruling Class actually cares about, and they'll squash you like a bug.

Posted by: A Provocative Parade Of Perverts! at June 16, 2023 11:20 AM (2tUFv)

64 The EV credits are being partially funded by fines to the auto manufactures that are still producing V8 engine and other lager displacement engines, to the tune of half a billion in fines.

Which is why all of the automanufacturers are phasing out V8 and are stuffing turbo 6's and turbo 4's in cars.

Toyota is planning on stuffing a turbo 4 cylinder into the upcoming 4Runner.

That's going to be one sad off roader.

Posted by: Thomas Bender at June 16, 2023 11:21 AM (rc3Z7)

65 I will not buy an EV. I will not buy any vehicle again. The F150 I drive now is it for me. Though I do worry about parts availability as the truck (2004) get older.

Posted by: DB - at June 16, 2023 11:21 AM (geLO8)

66 The Zero Emission Vehicle is a lie. They should be referred to as a Remote Emission Vehicle.

Posted by: Blanco Basura - Z28.310 at June 16, 2023 11:21 AM (Bd6X8)

67 Double Edsel.
Posted by: Eromero at June 16, 2023 11:18 AM (Uv0D2)
++++
Kinda, yeah.

Posted by: Joe Mannix (Not a cop!) at June 16, 2023 11:21 AM (t0OGg)

68 In China, they paint rocks green, plant fake crops to make it look like they're being green. It's pretty fucked up and funny.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cvc7VymDa4c

Posted by: Montec at June 16, 2023 11:22 AM (OalnH)

69 Weren’t they trying to come up with vehicles that ran on fry oil? What ever became of that?

Posted by: Bulgaroctonus at June 16, 2023 11:22 AM (Vk308)

70 The Zero Emission Vehicle is a lie. They should be referred to as a Remote Emission Vehicle.
Posted by: Blanco Basura - Z28.310 at June 16, 2023 11:21 AM (Bd6X

++++
ZEV refers to the tailpipe. It is more accurately "zero tailpipe emissions" or "zero local emissions."

They always leave the second word out, though.

Posted by: Joe Mannix (Not a cop!) at June 16, 2023 11:22 AM (t0OGg)

71 Weren’t they trying to come up with vehicles that ran on fry oil? What ever became of that?
Posted by: Bulgaroctonus at June 16, 2023 11:22 AM (Vk30

++++
It's just diesel. Biodiesel is a thing.

Posted by: Joe Mannix (Not a cop!) at June 16, 2023 11:22 AM (t0OGg)

72 There's going to come a point where the EV surge hits the reality wall. Lack of charging stations, service expense , shorter life span than advertised, battery problems, and the expense and rarity of the elements used in the EV itself will lead to an ugly mess all at once

Posted by: Smell the Glove at June 16, 2023 11:23 AM (OhpJy)

73 Posted by: SMOD

Companies get government subsidies based on sales, which makes it profitable to make them and park them. They are also using them in a "shared car" investment scheme where they get people to invest based on units produced and registered. They did it with bikes a few years ago until that scheme fell apart.

Posted by: Cat Ass Trophy at June 16, 2023 11:23 AM (WGUfL)

74 W'sup?

Posted by: GM27, SEP Field Technician at June 16, 2023 11:23 AM (RKLPC)

75 Where the fuck did "Carbon Credits" even come from?

Posted by: Fisht at June 16, 2023 11:23 AM (ZRarh)

76 >>> 66 The Zero Emission Vehicle is a lie. They should be referred to as a Remote Emission Vehicle.
Posted by: Blanco Basura - Z28.310 at June 16, 2023 11:21 AM (Bd6X

I'm definitely using this.

Posted by: Helena Handbasket at June 16, 2023 11:23 AM (llON8)

77 And my other thought is run a EV at LeMans and then we can talk

Posted by: Skip at June 16, 2023 11:23 AM (yQzOF)

78 45
'If I were a betting man, I'd bet against Rivian. This isn't 15 years ago anymroe.

Even if they had no problems they would still be power insufficient. They were pre-doomed by physics.

Posted by: Dr. Claw at June 16, 2023 11:23 AM (q3iUt)

79 I've driven and ridden in a Rivian truck. It was cool. I don't know anything about practicality. But it was cool. I myself like their appearance.

Posted by: Thesokorus at June 16, 2023 11:23 AM (Sd67k)

80 Where the fuck did "Carbon Credits" even come from?
Posted by: Fisht at June 16, 2023 11:23 AM (ZRarh)
---
I think I first heard about it 20+ years ago when Al Gore was pimping them hard.

Posted by: "Perfessor" Squirrel at June 16, 2023 11:24 AM (YIVH2)

81 And my other thought is run a EV at LeMans and then we can talk
Posted by: Skip at June 16, 2023 11:23 AM (yQzOF)
++++
There's Formula-e, and they handle the range problem in a pretty straightforward way: when you pit out, you switch cars.

Posted by: Joe Mannix (Not a cop!) at June 16, 2023 11:24 AM (t0OGg)

82 I will not buy an EV. I will not buy any vehicle again. The F150 I drive now is it for me. Though I do worry about parts availability as the truck (2004) get older.
Posted by: DB

If you gots room, get a spare parts truck.

Posted by: MkY at June 16, 2023 11:24 AM (ad0AA)

83 68 In China, they paint rocks green, plant fake crops to make it look like they're being green. It's pretty fucked up and funny.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cvc7VymDa4c
----------------
China needs to feed their crops Brawndo.

Posted by: Pudinhead at June 16, 2023 11:24 AM (J7wri)

84 The old US EV tax credit expired once the sales of that manufacturer's EV goes beyond the statutory limit of 200,000 vehicles. I think Teslas went past that limit some years ago, so purchasers of Teslas were no longer eligible for that credit for a number of years.

The new credit places limits on the modified adjusted gross income of the taxpayer, limits on origin of manufacture (final assembly) of the vehicle, battery components sourcing, and limits on the manufacturer's suggested retail price of the vehicle (which would appear to disqualify most Teslas).

See IRC Section 30D.

Posted by: ruralcounsel at June 16, 2023 11:24 AM (96wFa)

85 There's Formula-e, and they handle the range problem in a pretty straightforward way: when you pit out, you switch cars.
Posted by: Joe Mannix

No, no, no. Charge that motherfucker. Run the same car, or allow ice vehicles to swap out.

Posted by: rickb223 at June 16, 2023 11:25 AM (nW4TA)

86 And they're still more expensive. The Telsa is still a status symbol, it's just a status symbol within the sub-market. The guy who buys the Model 3 *could* have bought a BMW 3-series, he just chose to get a different status car. It's now a mainstream status car like BMW or Audi.

Posted by: Joe Mannix (Not a cop!) at June 16, 2023 11:20 AM (t0OGg)

____

A well equipped V6 Camry is $40K. A well equipped Model 3 is $45K. It's the same buyer cross shopping the two. A BMW 3-series is just a joke and best not discussed as a serious car.

Posted by: Montec at June 16, 2023 11:25 AM (OalnH)

87 Al Gore came up with carbon credits and a carbon credit exchange where he would, of course, take a cut of every credit traded.

Posted by: Cat Ass Trophy at June 16, 2023 11:25 AM (WGUfL)

88 Now do whoever came up with "social" "security".
Posted by: Helena Handbasket

Whaddya mean DO them , exactly ?

Posted by: JT at June 16, 2023 11:26 AM (T4tVD)

89 >but I think the Rivian front end is uglier than hammered sin.

I think the designers looked at Ford, Chevy and Dodge and thought, 'let's do something different'. And they did. And it was bad.

Posted by: DB - at June 16, 2023 11:26 AM (geLO8)

90 There's going to come a point where the EV surge hits the reality wall. Lack of charging stations, service expense , shorter life span than advertised, battery problems, and the expense and rarity of the elements used in the EV itself will lead to an ugly mess all at once

Same as tranny surgeries.

When the reality sets in in high numbers, the industry is dead.

That's why there is a hard push right now to ramp up the tranny industry. It has a limited life-span to exploit before the horrors are fully recognized by those that undergo the procedures.

Posted by: Bitter Clinger at June 16, 2023 11:26 AM (IAwid)

91 They don't spend a ton of time talking about it in this context. But it's ALL top-down, central-planning bullshit. And they all know it.

Posted by: ghost of hallelujah, yeah, it's ops at June 16, 2023 11:19 AM (sJHOI)

With more to come.

Posted by: BignJames at June 16, 2023 11:26 AM (AwYPR)

92 I worked for a payments software company that was responsible for helping gas stations update their machines to accept EMV.

In short, the vast majority of gas stations in the U.S. were unable to afford the mandated upgrade to EMV compatibility. They simply couldn't afford it.

How do you think these smaller, more regional gas stations are going to accommodate installing charging stations and the like?

They won't. Energy deserts will become a very, very real thing. Thankfully these EVs can run forever...

Posted by: The Central Scrutinizer at June 16, 2023 11:26 AM (KbCG3)

93 A well equipped V6 Camry is $40K. A well equipped Model 3 is $45K. It's the same buyer cross shopping the two. A BMW 3-series is just a joke and best not discussed as a serious car.
Posted by: Montec at June 16, 2023 11:25 AM (OalnH)

I'm pretty sure Tesla can go lower on price and that they will eventually.

Posted by: Thesokorus at June 16, 2023 11:27 AM (Sd67k)

94 So, Rivian was nothing but another green new tech startup that was nothing but smoke and mirrors? And what do you want to bet it spent all of the deposits?

Posted by: Aetius451AD Work Laptop, Navel Lint level member at June 16, 2023 11:28 AM (zZu0s)

95 W'sup?
-----------------
homo homo
homo

Posted by: the bud light frogs at June 16, 2023 11:28 AM (Vwz3I)

96 >Where the fuck did "Carbon Credits" even come from?

they got the idea from the medieval Church, selling indulgences

Posted by: DB - at June 16, 2023 11:28 AM (geLO8)

97 Where the fuck did "Carbon Credits" even come from?
Posted by: Fisht at June 16, 2023 11:23 AM (ZRarh)
---
I think I first heard about it 20+ years ago when Al Gore was pimping them hard.
Posted by: "Perfessor" Squirrel at June 16, 2023 11:24 AM (YIVH2)

It's genius in its evil

Think about it, Enriching yourself by limiting productivity.

Only a Prog could come up with such a scheme to spread ruin and harm across the globe.

Posted by: ghost of hallelujah, yeah, it's ops at June 16, 2023 11:29 AM (sJHOI)

98 I'm not invested in any way in Tesla or EV and only pick up info accidentally but are ppl here arguing EVs are at some max efficiency or capability?

As in, there are physical constraints of the tech that cannot be overcome?

Posted by: Thesokorus at June 16, 2023 11:29 AM (Sd67k)

99 The Zero Emission Vehicle is a lie. They should be referred to as a Remote Emission Vehicle.
Posted by: Blanco Basura - Z28.310 at June 16, 2023 11:21 AM (Bd6X8

It's a Pre Emission or Deferred Emission Vehicle.

The massive emission outlay is in the manufacturing process, then, the energy required during it's lifetime. These emissions are never offset and are continually deferred elsewhere, making the owners feel so good about themselves.

Posted by: Sponge - F*ck Joe Biden at June 16, 2023 11:29 AM (Zz0t1)

100 Posted by: jim (in Kalifornia) at June 16, 2023 11:15 AM (ynpvh)

How many amps is your panel, and does solar power the entire panel? Just curious.

Posted by: clutch at June 16, 2023 11:29 AM (9UmRs)

101 A mobile public is difficult to subjugate. So make the public unable to freely move about with ease.

Posted by: Martini Farmer at June 16, 2023 11:12 AM (Q4IgG)

I've known for a long time that bureaucrats *hate* nomadic cultures because it makes taxing them complicated. Hadn't applied that to normal Americans and obviously I should have.

Posted by: Polliwog the 'Ette at June 16, 2023 11:29 AM (nC+QA)

102 There's a guy on yt with an F250 not a dually but your typical farm truck with a diesel that he puts old motor oil and who knows what else in and it just runs. He's in northern climes so uses a lot of hot charge (ether?) spray to start which is also not recommended. Haha.

Talk about redneck recycling!

Posted by: micky at June 16, 2023 11:30 AM (3byMq)

103 Can a shadetree mechanic work on a Tesla? Can you get Tesla parts at the NAPA store?

Posted by: DB - at June 16, 2023 11:30 AM (geLO8)

104 OT but teh funneh about searching for yet more sanctions- twitter link

https://tinyurl.com/44um2c3x

Posted by: Kindltot at June 16, 2023 11:30 AM (xhaym)

105 That truck is butt ugly.. On a different note according to Tucker Fox fired the person who put "Wannebe" dictator on the chyron....

Posted by: It's me donna at June 16, 2023 11:30 AM (bs+z0)

106 A well equipped V6 Camry is $40K. A well equipped Model 3 is $45K. It's the same buyer cross shopping the two. A BMW 3-series is just a joke and best not discussed as a serious car.
Posted by: Montec at June 16, 2023 11:25 AM (OalnH)

And the Camry will never shut itself off or force an update you don't want.

Posted by: Sponge - F*ck Joe Biden at June 16, 2023 11:30 AM (Zz0t1)

107 I'm pretty sure Tesla can go lower on price and that they will eventually.
Posted by: Thesokorus at June 16, 2023 11:27 AM (Sd67k)
++++
They absolutely can. That is partly due to the incentives like Buck talked about, but not entirely. Tesla has room to cut prices and a lot of its competitors do not. Their recent China price cut didn't destroy their profitability (it did reduce profits, but did not create losses) while skull-fucking some of its China-market competitors.

This is what makes Tesla somewhat dangerous for its competitors: they *do* have room to cut prices if they need to.

Posted by: Joe Mannix (Not a cop!) at June 16, 2023 11:31 AM (t0OGg)

108 72 There's going to come a point where the EV surge hits the reality wall. Lack of charging stations, service expense , shorter life span than advertised, battery problems, and the expense and rarity of the elements used in the EV itself will lead to an ugly mess all at once
Posted by: Smell the Glove
--------
Plug in hybrids are a better bet right now. What is also unknown right now is used EV sales and insurance rates for them is in flux. Right now, even minor crashes could result in the EV being totaled because of unseen damage to the battery pack.

But, the king of all environmentally when you add up total emissions and environmental degradation from such things as mining/manufacturing is a used ICE car.

Posted by: whig at June 16, 2023 11:31 AM (Sngr5)

109 Can a shadetree mechanic work on a Tesla? Can you get Tesla parts at the NAPA store?
Posted by: DB - at June 16, 2023 11:30 AM (geLO

No. You can't even get tires from anywhere other than Tesla or you'll be fined and possibly void your warranty.

Posted by: Sponge - F*ck Joe Biden at June 16, 2023 11:31 AM (Zz0t1)

110 Can a shadetree mechanic work on a Tesla? Can you get Tesla parts at the NAPA store?
Posted by: DB - at June 16, 2023 11:30 AM (geLO

++++
Not really, no.

Posted by: Joe Mannix (Not a cop!) at June 16, 2023 11:32 AM (t0OGg)

111 There's Formula-e, and they handle the range problem in a pretty straightforward way: when you pit out, you switch cars.
Posted by: Joe Mannix (Not a cop!) at June 16, 2023 11:24 AM (t0OGg)

That was in the early seasons, they're now able to do 40 minutes of shitty "racing" on one battery.

Posted by: spindrift at June 16, 2023 11:32 AM (ivvNA)

112 As in, there are physical constraints of the tech that cannot be overcome?
Posted by: Thesokorus

Something something laws of thermodynamics.

Posted by: rickb223 at June 16, 2023 11:32 AM (nW4TA)

113
No. You can't even get tires from anywhere other than Tesla or you'll be fined and possibly void your warranty.
Posted by: Sponge - F*ck Joe Biden at June 16, 2023 11:31 AM (Zz0t1)

Is spontaneous combustion covered on the warranty ?

Posted by: It's me donna at June 16, 2023 11:32 AM (bs+z0)

114 At that price, the company that blinks first and chooses not to business in CA will win, because their prices will be several percentage points lower than the competition's.

Posted by: Joe Mannix (Not a cop!) at June 16, 2023 11:13 AM (t0OGg)

I was thinking the same thing. Only way to win is not to play. Not many CEOs or corporate boards that can let an illusory market go though.

Posted by: Polliwog the 'Ette at June 16, 2023 11:32 AM (nC+QA)

115 @108

>>Can a shadetree mechanic work on a Tesla? Can you get Tesla parts at the NAPA store?

No, there is no OEM parts distro network for Tesla vehicles.

And there is an 800v rail on EV's that you really don't want to be mucking with unless you're an experienced mechanic/engineer.

Posted by: Thomas Bender at June 16, 2023 11:32 AM (rc3Z7)

116 I wonder if they calc the extra battery weight of EVs and what impact that has on ‘efficiency.’
25 gallons of gas for a typical truck weighs around 150 pounds but that gets lighter every mile you drive. The engine in a gas or diesel may be heavier than elec, but not rivaling the ev battery weight.
The one thing I like about some EVs is the regenerative braking.

Posted by: Rex B at June 16, 2023 11:33 AM (6bDIQ)

117 So, just to compare, a fully loaded new miata (boo on the 6 speed being 500 more, and what in the name of Thomas Magnum is wrong with a red exterior and brown leather interior?!) and it comes to around 37k.

Posted by: Aetius451AD Work Laptop, Navel Lint level member at June 16, 2023 11:33 AM (zZu0s)

118 OT-- on occasion I go over to DailyKos to see what fevers they've caught lately, and today I found this plea...

Daily Kos has been fighting a lawsuit filed by prominent anti-vaxxer, Robert F. Kennedy, Jr. to unmask a user who wrote a story critical of Kennedy's attendance at a rally in Berlin that was organized, promoted and attended by neo-Nazis. It should be noted that Kennedy is not suing New York Times, CBS and other media outlets that published similar stories. Kennedy is siccing his lawyers on Daily Kos because we are a smaller, independent news and activism hub who he thinks he can intimidate. Simply put, Kennedy is trying to bully us.

Posted by: Huck Follywood at June 16, 2023 11:33 AM (XDx7O)

119 "The guy points out the environmental damage incurred in making all those tightly-packed rotting cars. What he misses is that it will take only one of them to catch on fire, and the whole field will eventually go up in flames."

To say nothing of the waste of the resources used to build them in the first place.

Posted by: FeatherBlade at June 16, 2023 11:33 AM (ou9hh)

120 Nice truthful rant Buck. I wonder if Xiden will come back to defend his taxpayer subsidized perk.
--
Commenter “dhmosquito” provided this helpful photo of the quickest way for a Rivian to travel across Wyoming. It might be the safest way too.
--
Nice catch dhmosquito and funny!

Posted by: AZ deplorable moron at June 16, 2023 11:34 AM (IHLk9)

121 This is what makes Tesla somewhat dangerous for its competitors: they *do* have room to cut prices if they need to.
Posted by: Joe Mannix (Not a cop!) at June 16, 2023 11:31 AM (t0OGg)

Seems like a great well run company to me. But idk. I don't really care about this stuff.

It just seems to me like ppl displace their disgust and anger at the current regime onto various technologies like EVs and trains and digital currency and zepplins.

This stuff is all cool to me but idk.

Posted by: Thesokorus at June 16, 2023 11:34 AM (Sd67k)

122 There's a guy on yt with an F250 not a dually but your typical farm truck with a diesel that he puts old motor oil and who knows what else in and it just runs. He's in northern climes so uses a lot of hot charge (ether?) spray to start which is also not recommended. Haha.

Talk about redneck recycling!
Posted by: micky

Saw a guy on youtube who mixes old motor oil and gasoline to make a crude kerosene and runs a diesel off of it.

Posted by: rickb223 at June 16, 2023 11:35 AM (nW4TA)

123 There's Formula-e, and they handle the range problem in a pretty straightforward way: when you pit out, you switch cars.

Posted by: Joe Mannix (Not a cop!) at June 16, 2023 11:24 AM (t0OGg)

I'd like to see a mixed EV/ICE race....both types alotted equal amounts of energy (btu's, joules, what ever) pre race.

Posted by: BignJames at June 16, 2023 11:35 AM (AwYPR)

124 To say nothing of the waste of the resources used to build them in the first place.
Posted by: FeatherBlade at June 16, 2023 11:33 AM (ou9hh)
++++
Sure, but they got the subsidies, inducements, etc. from various levels of CCP government. The *real* production is in exploiting brain-dead CCP incentives, and production there is high indeed.

Posted by: Joe Mannix (Not a cop!) at June 16, 2023 11:35 AM (t0OGg)

125 117 So, just to compare, a fully loaded new miata (boo on the 6 speed being 500 more, and what in the name of Thomas Magnum is wrong with a red exterior and brown leather interior?!) and it comes to around 37k.
----------------
I and Magnum are both over 6 feet tall. We can't fit into a Miata.

Posted by: Pudinhead at June 16, 2023 11:35 AM (J7wri)

126 Simply put, Kennedy is trying to bully us.
Posted by: Huck

Something about empty field comes to mind.

Posted by: AZ deplorable moron at June 16, 2023 11:35 AM (IHLk9)

127
It just seems to me like ppl displace their disgust and anger at the current regime onto various technologies like EVs and trains and digital currency and zepplins.

This stuff is all cool to me but idk.
Posted by: Thesokorus at June 16, 2023 11:34 AM (Sd67k)

Well, a f*ckload of your tax dollars are propping it up, so it's good you like it. You're funding it bigly.

Posted by: Sponge - F*ck Joe Biden at June 16, 2023 11:35 AM (Zz0t1)

128 On a different note according to Tucker Fox fired the person who put "Wannebe" dictator on the chyron....

I'm pretty sure that guy knew what was going to happen, and had zero f***s to give.

Posted by: Archimedes at June 16, 2023 11:36 AM (eOEVl)

129 I ackshewallee saw a Rivian the other day.

Though it wasn't on fire, so...I'm not sure i got the full Rivian experience.

I've also seen a few Lucids around. Just looking at the outside when parked, i'd say they look better put together than Teslas.

But, I think over all EVs must be failing. All the Recharging Spots that used to be free now charge a fee, and I've only seen one plug-in at the spots near us over the last couple of months.

I have nothing against EVs. Just let them compete against ICEs on an equal basis.

They'll still sell at current rates as a near-useless bauble of the rich or gullible and that's fine.

Let a million flowers bloom.

Posted by: naturalfake at June 16, 2023 11:36 AM (fb7jX)

130 Something something laws of thermodynamics.
Posted by: rickb223 at June 16, 2023 11:32 AM (nW4TA)

Well yes. But is the argument that EVs can never reach a level of practicality that makes them equiv to a gas car? Because of some physical law?

Posted by: Thesokorus at June 16, 2023 11:37 AM (Sd67k)

131 No one really does economic analysis anymore, they just do "will to power"

Part of it is due to the acceptable mainstream economic models being pure crap and totally useless for understanding or anticipating changes in the economy, and the rest is due to the belief that the main benefit of being an official is to stuff money in your pockets and have your friends give you kickbacks.

Posted by: Kindltot at June 16, 2023 11:37 AM (xhaym)

132 My tinfoil hat informs me that the unstated prize of EVs is less about eliminating ICE vehicles but to shift control over the fuel to run vehicles from private industry to government. Going one step further, the radio signals picked up by my molars informs me that this will lead to rationing because "green energy" will never provide sufficient energy to run every EV and a market for KWh road tax that whose pricing will becoming increasingly punishing as you buy more thus restricting freedom of movement for the average consumer. Couple this to the ongoing push to eliminate single family homes, gas stoves...well, none of this has anything to do with "climate change."

Posted by: Lost In Space at June 16, 2023 11:37 AM (qxLut)

133 New to the thread, don't non-insane states (MD is part of the wants to ban ICE vehicles idiocracy) had standing to sue based on the Commerce Clause that CA is unilaterally and unfairly affecting their ability to trade their state?

Posted by: Iris at June 16, 2023 11:37 AM (foa6+)

134 This stuff is all cool to me but idk.
Posted by: Thesokorus at June 16, 2023 11:34 AM (Sd67k)
++++
I think some EVs are cool. In certain very specific conditions, EVs are practical. They are not a realistic, practical or reasonable way for the entire transportation industry to shift.

Which is why it isn't.

My problem with EVs in particular is not EVs as such, but EV policy where the state is stomping around trying to force the issue and thus destroy mobility, individual preferences, corporate profitability, the environment, etc. If someone wants an EV and can afford it, nice. Enjoy. I kinda wish I had one, too (a Model S twin motor would be nice to have).

It's the tyranny and lies that I hate, not the tech or even the root concept.

Posted by: Joe Mannix (Not a cop!) at June 16, 2023 11:38 AM (t0OGg)

135 It just seems to me like ppl displace their disgust and anger at the current regime onto various technologies like EVs and trains and digital currency and zepplins.

This stuff is all cool to me but idk.
Posted by: Thesokorus
------
Organic growth by producing a better product is one thing. Making the taxpayers subsidize directly or indirectly is quite another.

Corporate capture of our government means that the marketplace does not select the goods offered but instead we get the goods that corporation bribes those in government to fund and eliminate competition.

The tech industry has become anticompetitive and reliant on government subsidies and regulations preventing competition.

Posted by: whig at June 16, 2023 11:38 AM (Sngr5)

136 Off topic, my sincere apologies.

CBS News, in part:

"The City of Minneapolis and the Minneapolis Police Department engage in a pattern or practice of conduct that deprives people of their rights under the Constitution and federal law," the Justice Department's report found in its investigation into the city's law enforcement.

Attorney General Merrick Garland announced the findings Friday in Minneapolis, accompanied by Associate Attorney General Vanita Gupta, Minneapolis Mayor Jacob Frey and Police Chief Brian O'Hara.

"As I told George Floyd's family this morning, his death has had an irrevocable impact on the Minneapolis community, on our country, and the world," Garland said.

------
Juneteenth, the federal holiday, is Monday.

Posted by: L - very tired at June 16, 2023 11:38 AM (GshMh)

137 IoT didn't so much lose the plot as invite the camel's nose called nefarious exploitation.

There are something that really are amazing, but toasters, refridgerators?

What do I know, I have a 'classic' auto with a manual transmission and a combo am/fm/cassette. Alas, I have power windows and mirrors but only because I couldn't get winders at the time 98. And yes one of the doors has had its combo lock, window motor replaced.

Bring back vent windows!

Posted by: micky at June 16, 2023 11:39 AM (3byMq)

138 https://twitter.com/CarpeDonktum/status/1669495644338237442

Your country has been stolen from you.

Your government no longer even attempts to represent your interests at home or abroad.

Your elected officials despise you, and they are systematically stripping you of your liberties one by one.

Your justice system no longer functions, it neither punishes the guilty nor protects the innocent.

Your country's entire economy only exists to enrich globalist corporations and their benefactors.

Your roads are crumbling, your bridges are collapsing, and your public infrastructure is slowly falling apart.

Your country's borders are non-existent and your immigration system only serves to provide fodder for endless spending bills that launder money from public programs to private pockets.

Your education system only exists as a propaganda tool to brainwash your children into becoming the next wave of rainbow shirt wearing government worshippers.

Your military is just an extension of globalist leader's wallets, securing a foothold in each new territory that they desire to drain of resourses.

Your free speech and your freedom of assembly are now just a shadow what they once were . . .

Posted by: Kindltot at June 16, 2023 11:39 AM (xhaym)

139 I don't think all EV chargers and their receptacles on the vehicle are "standard."

If you build a commercial charging station which EV's can use it? Or do you provide multiple charger formats at whatever capacity they run?

Other than the OTR diesel pumps they're all standard sized nozzles.

Posted by: Martini Farmer at June 16, 2023 11:39 AM (Q4IgG)

140 Well, a f*ckload of your tax dollars are propping it up, so it's good you like it. You're funding it bigly.
Posted by: Sponge - F*ck Joe Biden at June 16, 2023 11:35 AM (Zz0t1)

I don't think tax dollars are related to spending in the mechanical sense.

And roads subsidize automakers too.

The gas car was heavily subsidized as were trains etc etc

Zepplins should have been.

Posted by: Thesokorus at June 16, 2023 11:39 AM (Sd67k)

141 Well...they could always go after Elon Musk's tax credits and make electric vehicles much more expensive...

Oops!

Posted by: t-bird at June 16, 2023 11:39 AM (e2onP)

142 The tech industry has become anticompetitive and reliant on government subsidies and regulations preventing competition.
Posted by: whig at June 16, 2023 11:38 AM (Sngr5)

Obviously so. It is terrible.

What does this have to do with EVs in a qualitative sense?

Posted by: Thesokorus at June 16, 2023 11:41 AM (Sd67k)

143 Well yes. But is the argument that EVs can never reach a level of practicality that makes them equiv to a gas car? Because of some physical law?
Posted by: Thesokorus

Yes.

You can make an ev that gets the same distance from a charge that an ice gets from a fill up, but the ev will be the size of a semi due to battery requirements, which, at that point, it's no longer practical.

No battery has the same energy as the same size & weight as gasoline.

Posted by: rickb223 at June 16, 2023 11:41 AM (nW4TA)

144 Btw I think I saw an EV Ford Lightning today.

That seems dumb to me.

Posted by: Thesokorus at June 16, 2023 11:42 AM (Sd67k)

145 If you take your dog along in an EV, will it go fast enough for it to put its head out the window and feel the wind in its ears?

Posted by: Bulgaroctonus at June 16, 2023 11:42 AM (Vk308)

146 I just looked it up, and the "Gen3" Formula E cars to be introduced this year were going to have re-charging.

That is now delayed until next year. The sad sack effort was going to allow only 4kWh of energy, which even those dopes finally realized was not remotely useful.

Posted by: spindrift at June 16, 2023 11:42 AM (ivvNA)

147 You h8trs are OBVIOUSLY not Stakeholder Capitalists… Be Better!!

Posted by: tubal at June 16, 2023 11:43 AM (PCK5/)

148 LiFePo4 batteries hate the cold weather. Good luck travelling any distance in winter in these POS.

Posted by: Maj. Healey at June 16, 2023 11:43 AM (9RRW+)

149 No battery has the same energy as the same size & weight as gasoline.
Posted by: rickb223 at June 16, 2023 11:41 AM (nW4TA)

Yes. But that is now. You see insufficient or no rokm for increases in efficiency?

Honest question.

Posted by: Thesokorus at June 16, 2023 11:43 AM (Sd67k)

150 New to the thread, don't non-insane states (MD is part of the wants to ban ICE vehicles idiocracy) had standing to sue based on the Commerce Clause that CA is unilaterally and unfairly affecting their ability to trade their state?
Posted by: Iris

No standing.
Posted by: Insane Hawaiian Judge

Posted by: rickb223 at June 16, 2023 11:43 AM (nW4TA)

151 Just strip out 100% of the subsidies and let the market decide. Eventually, it will get there.

I hate that it's even political, it should just be a technology argument. But this farce of global warming means Marxist central planning gets injected into everything.

Posted by: Blago at June 16, 2023 11:44 AM (xcP7C)

152 Do they have a tool kit/jumper cable sized short term battery that would give enough juice to get you going again? The EV equivalent of a one or two gallon plastic gas can?

If not, should we be selling them?

Posted by: Bilwis Devourer of Innocent Souls, I'm starvin' over here at June 16, 2023 11:44 AM (z+89e)

153 It's the tyranny and lies that I hate, not the tech or even the root concept.

Well put, sir.

Posted by: Blanco Basura - Z28.310 at June 16, 2023 11:44 AM (Bd6X8)

154 133: MD wants to eliminate internal combustion engines from the road, but failed to re-register star spangled two hundred dot com or whatever the website is on their “War of 1812” license plates, so now those 75,000 license plates advertise a Philippine gambling website.

Got it.

Posted by: Catch Thirty-Thr33 at June 16, 2023 11:44 AM (odBp6)

155 So what happens to an EV is you screw a drywall screw into the battery? I couldn't find an answer on Google.

Posted by: Pudinhead at June 16, 2023 11:44 AM (J7wri)

156 "As I told George Floyd's family this morning, his death has had an irrevocable impact on the Minneapolis community, on our country, and the world," Garland said.

------
Juneteenth, the federal holiday, is Monday.
Posted by: L

Watched the announcement. It struck me as if it was calculated to amp up racial identity politics. And during Juneteenth week. I can't wait until Juneteenth becomes Reparation Celebration Month. I am pretty sure the gays will pitch a fit over that.

Posted by: Lost In Space at June 16, 2023 11:44 AM (qxLut)

157 Rivian has all the earmarks of a classic tech scam. I'm sure the promoters are socking away money in some Carribean banks; when it fails it will be "bad luck".

Kemp is a fool.

Posted by: Tom Servo at June 16, 2023 11:44 AM (i9ffA)

158 No battery has the same energy as the same size & weight as gasoline/

Gasoline is "energy dense".

Batteries, not so much.

Posted by: A Provocative Parade Of Perverts! at June 16, 2023 11:44 AM (2tUFv)

159 >>144 Btw I think I saw an EV Ford Lightning today.

That seems dumb to me.
Posted by: Thesokorus

You can power your house with it !!! For about 30 minutes then, everything is dead.

Posted by: Maj. Healey at June 16, 2023 11:44 AM (9RRW+)

160 Oh oh!! Massive cyber attack happening per Bannon.
It's Russia, Russia, Russia.

Power down all electricals and proceed to your muster point (Dell has these -- how very Dell).

Posted by: micky at June 16, 2023 11:44 AM (3byMq)

161 If you take your dog along in an EV, will it go fast enough for it to put its head out the window and feel the wind in its ears?

Posted by: Bulgaroctonus at June 16, 2023 11:42 AM (Vk30

If a dog pisses on your wheel while the car is charging...will it short out?

Posted by: BignJames at June 16, 2023 11:45 AM (AwYPR)

162 If there were a backlog of pre-orders to fill, Rivian wouldn’t be trying to get people to come to the factory and make these trucks go away.

Throw in a case of Bud Light and we'll be right over!

Posted by: t-bird at June 16, 2023 11:45 AM (A0/af)

163 You can make an ev that gets the same distance from a charge that an ice gets from a fill up, but the ev will be the size of a semi due to battery requirements, which, at that point, it's no longer practical.

No battery has the same energy as the same size & weight as gasoline.
Posted by: rickb223 at June 16, 2023 11:41 AM (nW4TA)
++++
Not to mention time, which is the big problem for me. I'd be satisfied with a 250-ish mile range, because if I'm on a long haul, I will probably want to stop by about then anyway to stretch my legs and pee. The problem is how long that stop has to be. To fill up my car with gas takes about 5 minutes. Maybe 7 or 8 if the pump is slow.

I can't do that in an EV. The chemistry doesn't permit it. And if I do "fast charge" all the time (still slower than a fill-up, but pretty quick all things considered), I'll wreck the batteries. Even if I baby the batteries to extend their life, they still won't last long compared to my traditional car's powertrain. I keep my cars more or less forever, and so longevity and durability are big downsides to EV as well.

Posted by: Joe Mannix (Not a cop!) at June 16, 2023 11:45 AM (t0OGg)

164 Yes. But that is now. You see insufficient or no rokm for increases in efficiency?

Honest question.
Posted by: Thesokorus

No. Not with current technology. And I don't mean some esoteric "idea" that is in a lab and 20 years or more away from PRACTICAL usage.

Posted by: rickb223 at June 16, 2023 11:45 AM (nW4TA)

165 Containing William Wallace’s Sword Ordered To Pay £3,333 Fine EACH After Trying To Hide Behind ‘Suffragette’ Defence

Three climate activists who smashed a glass display case containing William Wallace’s sword have each been ordered to pay a £3,333 fine.

Alexander Cloudsley, 30, a foodbank coordinator, Katrielle Chan, 21, a computer science student at the University of Strathclyde, and Imogen Robertson, 22, said they were emulating the actions of suffragette Ethel Moorhead.

Posted by: andycanuck (Vwz3I) at June 16, 2023 11:45 AM (Vwz3I)

166 I hate that it's even political, it should just be a technology argument. But this farce of global warming means Marxist central planning gets injected into everything.

And for the Marxists that's a feature, not a bug.

Posted by: Blanco Basura - Z28.310 at June 16, 2023 11:45 AM (Bd6X8)

167 Weren’t they trying to come up with vehicles that ran on fry oil? What ever became of that?
Posted by: Bulgaroctonus
++++
It's just diesel. Biodiesel is a thing.
Posted by: Joe Mannix

Yup, you can retrofit any diesel vehicle at 'dual fuel', bio and reg diesel. The cooking oil has to be filtered first (no french fries in the tank).
You have to start the car on reg diesel and then switch over.
I don't believe it works well where/when it's cold.

Posted by: AZ deplorable moron at June 16, 2023 11:45 AM (IHLk9)

168 I have an idea. Let's park all these extremely heavy EV's in decrepit parking garages throughout the Northeast.

Posted by: Jinx the Cat at June 16, 2023 11:45 AM (OKFMY)

169 #165 Three Eco-Zealots Who Smashed Display Containing William Wallace’s Sword Ordered To Pay £3,333 Fine EACH After Trying To Hide Behind ‘Suffragette’ Defence

Doh!

Posted by: andycanuck (Vwz3I) at June 16, 2023 11:46 AM (Vwz3I)

170 PJMedia published an article by Rick Moran, with whom I am unfamiliar. The article dealt with the recent plan by some GOP Senators to cut $16.5T from the federal budget over the next ten years.

Mr. Moran didn't like the plan. His critique included gems like:
"The act of taking $16 trillion out of the economy in just a decade would destroy the nation’s finances, and force tens of millions of people into poverty. It will never pass muster even in the House with the Republican majority."
"The United States is a great, big, grown-up country with 330 million people. For a few dozen congressmen to claim ownership of the nation’s “values” is idiotic. And much of the rest of Congress — including many Republicans — are going to let them know just how stupid that is.

"This isn’t 1790, or 1890, or even 1930. The United States is a great, big, grown-up country with 330 million people. For a few dozen congressmen to claim ownership of the nation’s “values” is idiotic. And much of the rest of Congress — including many Republicans — are going to let them know just how stupid that is."

I doubt I'll be reading more from Mr. Moran. He's an idiot.

https://tinyurl.com/cy7t2x58

Posted by: Archimedes at June 16, 2023 11:46 AM (eOEVl)

171 said they were emulating the actions of suffragette Ethel Moorhead.
Posted by: andycanuck (Vwz3I) at June 16, 2023 11:45 AM (Vwz3I)

They may take our lives....
But they'll never take...

OUR REEEEEE-DOM!

Posted by: Warai-otoko at June 16, 2023 11:46 AM (/EuRN)

172 I have an idea. Let's park all these extremely heavy EV's in decrepit parking garages throughout the Northeast.
Posted by: Jinx the Cat at June 16, 2023 11:45 AM (OKFMY)
++++
Heh.

Posted by: Joe Mannix (Not a cop!) at June 16, 2023 11:46 AM (t0OGg)

173 165 Containing William Wallace’s Sword Ordered To Pay £3,333 Fine EACH After Trying To Hide Behind ‘Suffragette’ Defence

Three climate activists who smashed a glass display case containing William Wallace’s sword have each been ordered to pay a £3,333 fine.

Alexander Cloudsley, 30, a foodbank coordinator, Katrielle Chan, 21, a computer science student at the University of Strathclyde, and Imogen Robertson, 22, said they were emulating the actions of suffragette Ethel Moorhead.
Posted by: andycanuck (Vwz3I) at June 16, 2023 11:45 AM (Vwz3I)

========

Since all three most likely come from wealthy families, this is a slap on the wrist.

Posted by: TheJamesMadison, perfectly captured in the frame by William Wyler at June 16, 2023 11:46 AM (LvTSG)

174 All that subsidy money will help speed up the solutions to all the issues that EVs are experiencing. How we were able to do this before without government subsidies on steam engines, cotton gins, oil, personal computers and the like, I have no idea.

Posted by: Chuck Martel at June 16, 2023 11:46 AM (fs1hN)

175 Something something laws of thermodynamics.
Posted by: rickb223 at June 16, 2023 11:32 AM

Tools of the white heteropatriarchy designed to keep people of color down!

Posted by: Mary Cloggenstein of Brattleboro, VT at June 16, 2023 11:46 AM (a3Q+t)

176 It’s about the money, WHO makes it… throw in some virtuous optics, add a snifter of Koool-Aid, et voila!!

Posted by: tubal at June 16, 2023 11:46 AM (PCK5/)

177 Not to mention time, which is the big problem for me. I'd be satisfied with a 250-ish mile range, because if I'm on a long haul, I will probably want to stop by about then anyway to stretch my legs and pee. The problem is how long that stop has to be. To fill up my car with gas takes about 5 minutes. Maybe 7 or 8 if the pump is slow.

I can't do that in an EV. The chemistry doesn't permit it. And if I do "fast charge" all the time (still slower than a fill-up, but pretty quick all things considered), I'll wreck the batteries. Even if I baby the batteries to extend their life, they still won't last long compared to my traditional car's powertrain. I keep my cars more or less forever, and so longevity and durability are big downsides to EV as well.
Posted by: Joe Mannix

Even if it takes 30 minutes to charge, be eighth in line to use the charger...

Posted by: rickb223 at June 16, 2023 11:47 AM (nW4TA)

178 I doubt I'll be reading more from Mr. Moran. He's an idiot.

https://tinyurl.com/cy7t2x58
Posted by: Archimedes at June 16, 2023 11:46 AM (eOEVl)

Anyone who conflates cutting gov't spending with taking money out of the economy is a dangerous imbecile not to be listened to under any circumstances.

Posted by: Warai-otoko at June 16, 2023 11:47 AM (/EuRN)

179 No. Not with current technology. And I don't mean some esoteric "idea" that is in a lab and 20 years or more away from PRACTICAL usage.
Posted by: rickb223 at June 16, 2023 11:45 AM (nW4TA)

Again, not being a jerk or leading but "current tech" means what?

And this can't be surpassed?

Maybe so. Idk. If EVs vanished tmw I would not even notice or care.

Posted by: Thesokorus at June 16, 2023 11:48 AM (Sd67k)

180 That reminds me: I have to go mail my Juneteenth cards! I hope I haven't left it too late.

Posted by: DB - at June 16, 2023 11:48 AM (geLO8)

181 More than $15k can be earned online by performing straightforward tasks from home. In the previous month, I got $18376. Even a young child may do this job and make money because it is so simple to complete and has higher pay than typical office occupations. Everyone needs to try this task by using the information on this page. https://Getmoney012.blogspot.com

Posted by: Jennifer at June 16, 2023 11:48 AM (YjnUE)

182 I would like to know how many of these EV manufactures
orders are from government entities. Green Fleeters.

Posted by: Maj. Healey at June 16, 2023 11:48 AM (9RRW+)

183 Wankers fucking with Braveheart's sword. Fuck. They should be quartered and drawn.

Posted by: Pudinhead at June 16, 2023 11:48 AM (J7wri)

184 Andy Ngô @MrAndyNgo
A #trans activist group in Calgary, Canada is organizing a direct action today against a #Muslim group planning to protest “LGBTQ indoctrination in public schools.” The trans group says the Muslim group is not representative of Muslims and that they are fascists. #Islam #Pride

Offence Police @OffencePolice · 2h
"The trans group says the Muslim group is not representative of Muslims"

I totally agree and I recommend the trans activists go to Mecca and organise a drag queen story hour during this year's Hajj. The tolerant Muslims would be so grateful and happy to see them.

John @johnHODLs · 17m
Let’s crowdfund the tickets

Posted by: andycanuck (Vwz3I) at June 16, 2023 11:48 AM (Vwz3I)

185 Another thing that bugs me about the top-down policy hell-bent on destroying internal combustion is how stupidly wasteful it is.

Modern IC engines are sitting on more than century of development. They have never been lighter, more efficient, better performing per gallon (or per ton of the Dread Carbon if you care about that nonsense) or more reliable on average. The amount of investment put into the technology is truly staggering and they're so good that throwing them away in favor of stupid corruption is particularly insane.

Posted by: Joe Mannix (Not a cop!) at June 16, 2023 11:49 AM (t0OGg)

186 102
' your typical farm truck with a diesel that he puts old motor oil and who knows what else in and it just runs.'

Either that truck runs like shit or the redneck should get a Nobel prize.

I'm picturing a black cloud billowing from that guy's truck.

Posted by: Dr. Claw at June 16, 2023 11:49 AM (q3iUt)

187 New to the thread, don't non-insane states (MD is part of the wants to ban ICE vehicles idiocracy) had standing to sue based on the Commerce Clause that CA is unilaterally and unfairly affecting their ability to trade their state?
Posted by: Iris

Pork (or was it chicken) producers went to court to say about the same thing.
It was ruled that making rules that affect producers in other States doesn't make the law illegal because it effects CA producers as well. (IIRC it was the SC, and I think they got the law right; but, the impact wrong. Kind of like the wheat ruling.)

The same argument will fail for EV.

Posted by: AZ deplorable moron at June 16, 2023 11:49 AM (IHLk9)

188 How we were able to do this before without government subsidies on steam engines, cotton gins, oil, personal computers and the like, I have no idea.
Posted by: Chuck Martel at June 16, 2023 11:46 AM (fs1hN)

We weren't.

Posted by: Thesokorus at June 16, 2023 11:49 AM (Sd67k)

189 Watched the announcement. It struck me as if it was calculated to amp up racial identity politics. And during Juneteenth week. I can't wait until Juneteenth becomes Reparation Celebration Month. I am pretty sure the gays will pitch a fit over that.
Posted by: Lost In Space

Barky just hisssssssed more racial tension at us the other day, too.

EV is bad. Two words; one for vehicles one for vaccines.

Banning (prohibition)
Mandatory (your choice is ah limited)

Posted by: micky at June 16, 2023 11:49 AM (3byMq)

190 Zepplins should have been.
Posted by: Thesokorus
------
Not really. They lost out in the marketplace for a reason--too slow, too affected by weather, and safety issues. We have better uses for scarce helium (MRI's require them for example) than balloons and using hydrogen is basically asking for a disaster.

Unless you include government purchases of vehicles, during the early era as a subsidy, ICE cars and trucks were not subsidized themselves because there was no need--steam and electric cars of the era simply were not competitive for any distance compared with ICE.

For the most part, the major subsidy for railroads was granting of right of way to operate during the 1870's or so and that land was essentially government's to give unlike tax dollars.

EV's for the most part do not pay road taxes which ICE trucks and autos do despite the fact that they are heavier and as a result cause more wear to roads than a corresponding ICE car of similar dimensions and uses.

No one here is arguing that they should be banned but simply for governments to leave the people alone that want to drive their existing ICE cars and trucks.

Posted by: whig at June 16, 2023 11:49 AM (Sngr5)

191 180 That reminds me: I have to go mail my Juneteenth cards! I hope I haven't left it too late.
--------------
The holiday celebrates late news - so fitting.

Posted by: Pudinhead at June 16, 2023 11:49 AM (J7wri)

192 They may take our lives....
But they'll never take...

OUR REEEEEE-DOM!
-----------
Thread winnah!

Posted by: andycanuck (Vwz3I) at June 16, 2023 11:50 AM (Vwz3I)

193 184 Offence Police @OffencePolice · 2h
"The trans group says the Muslim group is not representative of Muslims"

I totally agree and I recommend the trans activists go to Mecca and organise a drag queen story hour during this year's Hajj. The tolerant Muslims would be so grateful and happy to see them.

John @johnHODLs · 17m
Let’s crowdfund the tickets
Posted by: andycanuck (Vwz3I) at June 16, 2023 11:48 AM (Vwz3I)

========

Fucking finally, the left is going after Muslims for not being down with homosexuality in some way. It has to be the pointy end of the spear, though, the trannies, who have been coddled to the point where "not clapping enough" for their existence is an attack.

I just bought more popcorn.

Posted by: TheJamesMadison, perfectly captured in the frame by William Wyler at June 16, 2023 11:50 AM (LvTSG)

194 The same argument will fail for EV.
Posted by: AZ deplorable moron at June 16, 2023 11:49 AM (IHLk9)

By that logic, murder-suicide is not a crime.

Posted by: Warai-otoko at June 16, 2023 11:50 AM (/EuRN)

195 >.A #trans activist group in Calgary, Canada is organizing a direct action today against a #Muslim group planning to protest “LGBTQ indoctrination in public schools.”

Tickets to that, please!

Posted by: DB - at June 16, 2023 11:50 AM (geLO8)

196 The amount of investment put into the technology is truly staggering and they're so good that throwing them away in favor of stupid corruption is particularly insane.
Posted by: Joe Mannix (Not a cop!) at June 16, 2023 11:49 AM (t0OGg)

Fwiw, 100% agree. Absolutely.

I miss my straight 8 almost every day.

Posted by: Thesokorus at June 16, 2023 11:50 AM (Sd67k)

197 You need to check your math there, dude. The $7500 credit is to the CONSUMER. While obviously it is an effective subsidy, it is not "over and above" the money received from the customer.

Posted by: RichieC at June 16, 2023 11:51 AM (DxBF0)

198 Now do solar power and wind power companies and any other 'green' company.

Posted by: polynikes at June 16, 2023 11:51 AM (WxkE9)

199 Kemp is a fool.
Posted by: Tom Servo at June 16, 2023 11:44 AM

But he's totes onboard with OrangeMan Bad, so he's ok with us.

Posted by: The Uniparty at June 16, 2023 11:51 AM (a3Q+t)

200 Again, not being a jerk or leading but "current tech" means what?

And this can't be surpassed?

Maybe so. Idk. If EVs vanished tmw I would not even notice or care.
Posted by: Thesokorus

Lead/acid, ni-cad, or lithium batteries.
Batteries don't create energy. They only store it. To make a battery store the same energy as a gallon of gasoline, they battery becomes impractical due to size & weight.

Posted by: rickb223 at June 16, 2023 11:51 AM (nW4TA)

201 Again, not being a jerk or leading but "current tech" means what?

And this can't be surpassed?

Maybe so. Idk. If EVs vanished tmw I would not even notice or care.
Posted by: Thesokorus at June 16, 2023 11:48 AM (Sd67k)
++++
"Current tech" is lithium-based batteries. Could it be surpassed? Probably. There is always the Next Big Thing in battery tech, but there are chemistry and physics limitations. If those end up being able to be broken (e.g., we were wrong about the limitations) or bypassed (e.g., we found some other way that probably isn't a "battery" in any traditional sense), then none of the old rules apply at that point.

But as it stands, battery-powered EVs with Lithium chemistry cannot do the job they're being asked to do, which is carry the entire road transport burden.

Posted by: Joe Mannix (Not a cop!) at June 16, 2023 11:51 AM (t0OGg)

202 201 But as it stands, battery-powered EVs with Lithium chemistry cannot do the job they're being asked to do, which is carry the entire road transport burden.
Posted by: Joe Mannix (Not a cop!) at June 16, 2023 11:51 AM (t0OGg)

=========

What if we strip mine all the mountains far away from NYC?

Posted by: TheJamesMadison, perfectly captured in the frame by William Wyler at June 16, 2023 11:52 AM (LvTSG)

203 A #trans activist group in Calgary, Canada is organizing a direct action today against a #Muslim group planning to protest “LGBTQ indoctrination in public schools.”

Tickets to that, please!
Posted by: DB

Dibs on the blood clean up concession!

Posted by: rickb223 at June 16, 2023 11:52 AM (nW4TA)

204 178 I doubt I'll be reading more from Mr. Moran. He's an idiot.

https://tinyurl.com/cy7t2x58
Posted by: Archimedes at June 16, 2023 11:46 AM (eOEVl)

Anyone who conflates cutting gov't spending with taking money out of the economy is a dangerous imbecile not to be listened to under any circumstances.
Posted by: Warai-otoko
-------
Moran has been the skunk at American Thinker and now at PJ Media for a long time. Essentially he is a soft Democrat but claims GOP affiliation because he is not good enough to be in the MSM.

Over the years, I have found him to be as useless as tits on a boar hog because essentially every column is the conservative case for ......(some leftist scheme).

Posted by: whig at June 16, 2023 11:53 AM (Sngr5)

205 No one here is arguing that they should be banned but simply for governments to leave the people alone that want to drive their existing ICE cars and trucks.
Posted by: whig at June 16, 2023 11:49 AM (Sngr5)

Untrue re Zepplins and I am angry.

There do seem ppl here with an actual animus toward EV cars. But idk.

Posted by: Thesokorus at June 16, 2023 11:53 AM (Sd67k)

206 Yes. But that is now. You see insufficient or no rokm for increases in efficiency?

Honest question.
Posted by: Thesokorus

Yup, as soon as you can put a small fusion reactor in each car you'll be right about EV powered vehicles being more cost effective (as long as the reactor is cheap too...)

Posted by: AZ deplorable moron at June 16, 2023 11:53 AM (IHLk9)

207 Look, all we need are Dilithium Crystals… or Beryllium Spheres… Problem solved!!

Posted by: tubal at June 16, 2023 11:53 AM (PCK5/)

208 Is it wrong that I hope the two groups come to blows?

Posted by: DB - at June 16, 2023 11:53 AM (geLO8)

209 If you made an EV ultralight, you might get away with decent statistics. But you can't, because all that weight is needed for the million and one safety standards a car has to clear.

Posted by: Warai-otoko at June 16, 2023 11:53 AM (/EuRN)

210 Bud Lite is for everyone, but we are going to launch a new advertising campaign to con the rubes.

Posted by: Cat Ass Trophy at June 16, 2023 11:54 AM (WGUfL)

211 I doubt I'll be reading more from Mr. Moran. He's an idiot.

He is appropriately named.

He is a highly reliable source for Bad Takes.

Posted by: A Provocative Parade Of Perverts! at June 16, 2023 11:54 AM (2tUFv)

212 Buckyballs
they can do magic shit, right?

Posted by: DB - at June 16, 2023 11:54 AM (geLO8)

213 A friend recently got back from a trip and when he went to pick up his car at the airport lot, he couldn't find it! After an hour plus of "investigation," the lot manager finally came clean and told him that his and 8 other cars had mysteriously burned up in a fire. His (non-EV) car is melted- we all can guess the cause of that fire.

Posted by: LASue at June 16, 2023 11:54 AM (Ed8Zd)

214 213 A friend recently got back from a trip and when he went to pick up his car at the airport lot, he couldn't find it! After an hour plus of "investigation," the lot manager finally came clean and told him that his and 8 other cars had mysteriously burned up in a fire. His (non-EV) car is melted- we all can guess the cause of that fire.
Posted by: LASue at June 16, 2023 11:54 AM (Ed8Zd)

=======

*nods sagaciously*

Trump.

Posted by: TheJamesMadison, perfectly captured in the frame by William Wyler at June 16, 2023 11:55 AM (LvTSG)

215 ... For the most part, the major subsidy for railroads was granting of right of way to operate during the 1870's or so and that land was essentially government's to give unlike tax dollars. ...
Posted by: whig at June 16, 2023 11:49 AM (Sngr5)
++++
There was also a lot of subsidy and assistance for the railroads - and we paid a massive fiscal and economic price for it. The railroad bubble - stoked in part by the government - contributed directly to the Panic of 1893, which was a four-year depression marked by wild currency value swings, unstable exchange and various other problems.

Posted by: Joe Mannix (Not a cop!) at June 16, 2023 11:55 AM (t0OGg)

216 If you fill an EVs tires with helium, would it be lighter?

Posted by: Cat Ass Trophy at June 16, 2023 11:55 AM (WGUfL)

217 well, they figured out how to make guns out of plastic

maybe one day we'll see a plastic battery
disclaimer: my knowledge of materials science is limited

Posted by: DB - at June 16, 2023 11:55 AM (geLO8)

218 199 Kemp is a fool.
Posted by: Tom Servo
------------
Not really, he got his reelection, probably got contributions from Rivian investors, and spent money that isn't his along with the idiotic GA legislature.

This is what GOPe does--the same thing as leftists but arguing the conservative case for corporate welfare for Fortune 500 companies. He and his killed RFRA for GA for similar reasons and so on.

Posted by: whig at June 16, 2023 11:55 AM (Sngr5)

219 What if we strip mine all the mountains far away from NYC?
Posted by: TheJamesMadison, perfectly captured in the frame by William Wyler at June 16, 2023 11:52 AM (LvTSG)
++++
No, not even then.

Posted by: Joe Mannix (Not a cop!) at June 16, 2023 11:55 AM (t0OGg)

220 There was a guy up in PA who got in on making bio diesel when it first started, mostly recovered cooking oils. He lived out in one of the sparser populated townships, and was smart enough to invite the local cops in to show them he wasn't cooking meth or something. Had a diesel VW Rabbit, I think a Dodge pickup, and he had dropped a Chevy 350 diesel in his inboard boat. Probably had a diesel generator. I don't know how the cost offset worked because he had to spend a lot of time driving around collecting oil and supplies.

Posted by: bill in arkansas, not gonna comply with nuttin, waiting for the 0300 knock on the door at June 16, 2023 11:56 AM (rLD7a)

221 You fucked up Governor Kemp, you trusted us!

Posted by: Rivian at June 16, 2023 11:56 AM (ufFY8)

222 There do seem ppl here with an actual animus toward EV cars. But idk.

Posted by: Thesokorus

You seem to be IDK, heartless!
You are defending taking money from the poor to give to the rich.

Posted by: AZ deplorable moron at June 16, 2023 11:56 AM (IHLk9)

223 nods sagaciously*

Trump.
Posted by: TheJamesMadison, perfectly captured in the frame by William Wyler at June 16, 2023 11:55 AM (LvTSG)

Credible sources close to Trump's organization have divulged that he ordered Russian arsonists to make the attack.

Posted by: Warai-otoko at June 16, 2023 11:56 AM (/EuRN)

224 It can be lunch time

Posted by: Skip at June 16, 2023 11:56 AM (yQzOF)

225 216 If you fill an EVs tires with helium, would it be lighter?
Posted by: Cat Ass Trophy at June 16, 2023 11:55 AM (WGUfL)

Hydrogen… it would be Lit!!!

Posted by: tubal at June 16, 2023 11:56 AM (PCK5/)

226 Modern IC engines are sitting on more than century of development. They have never been lighter, more efficient, better performing per gallon (or per ton of the Dread Carbon if you care about that nonsense) or more reliable on average. The amount of investment put into the technology is truly staggering and they're so good that throwing them away in favor of stupid corruption is particularly insane. Posted by: Joe Mannix (Not a cop!)

Exactly. EVs make everything worse and not by a little. But that isn't the point as I see matters. EVs are about eliminating private industry from the energy market and putting government in control of how it is generated and delivered. Much socialist/Marxist mischief and misery is implicit in EVs.

Posted by: Lost In Space at June 16, 2023 11:57 AM (qxLut)

227 This busty, callipygian bikini brunette thinks that a Model S would be a really fast, cool and fun second car:
https://is.gd/NwsraI

Posted by: Joe Mannix (Not a cop!) at June 16, 2023 11:57 AM (t0OGg)

228
I have an idea. Let's park all these extremely heavy EV's in decrepit parking garages throughout the Northeast.

Posted by: Jinx the Cat at June 16, 2023 11:45 AM

bestest TicTok EVAH!!!

Posted by: AltonJackson at June 16, 2023 11:57 AM (ENBF0)

229 Not with current technology. And I don't mean some esoteric "idea" that is in a lab and 20 years or more away from PRACTICAL usage.

If I paint a "+" and a "-" on my gas tank, I'll have a trans-electric car that actually works for the long haul.

Posted by: t-bird at June 16, 2023 11:57 AM (A0/af)

230 And it aint just tax credits to the rich who can afford to buy an extra vehicle and choose an EV. Electric rates are jacked up and then richer people who can afford to put in a solar system get a big tax credit, plus the utilities have to pay them when they generate excess electricity and it it gets directed back to the grid. That might make sense in Failifornia or Arizona summertimes where peak demand probably matches peak solar array output but in Illinois in the winter? Illinois has very high electric rates and very generous state credits for solar on top of the federal credits.

Posted by: PaleRider at June 16, 2023 11:57 AM (3cGpq)

231 213 Good grief, that’s horrible! Would insurance cover that?

Posted by: Bulgaroctonus at June 16, 2023 11:57 AM (Vk308)

232 >There do seem ppl here with an actual animus toward EV cars. But idk.

Posted by: Thesokorus

I don't want one. And I don't want anyone to have the power to force me to want one.

Posted by: DB - at June 16, 2023 11:58 AM (geLO8)

233 "Current tech" is lithium-based batteries. Could it be surpassed? Probably. There is always the Next Big Thing in battery tech, but there are chemistry and physics limitations.

One myth that has been around for a long time is that because batteries are "tech", they should be following Moore's law, and should be getting better at an exponential rate.

In reality, battery technology, while improving, is doing so at a slow rate, but that hasn't stopped people from explaining for the last forty years that we are on the verge of a "breakthrough" in battery tech.

Posted by: A Provocative Parade Of Perverts! at June 16, 2023 11:58 AM (2tUFv)

234 190 Zepplins should have been.
Posted by: Thesokorus
------
Not really. They lost out in the marketplace for a reason--too slow, too affected by weather, and safety issues. We have better uses for scarce helium (MRI's require them for example) than balloons and using hydrogen is basically asking for a disaster."

Most people forget that the US had a robust zeppelin program that ended in disaster. Although people remember the Hindenburg, because of the film, the worst Zeppelin disaster in history was the crash of the USS Akron, which not only killed the crew but the Captain, a Rear Admiral, an Admiral, and several high placed observers involved in the Navy's aeronautics program. When it's sister ship the Macon crashed 2 years later, the US Airship program crashed for good with it.

Posted by: Tom Servo at June 16, 2023 11:58 AM (i9ffA)

235 If you have a predictable commute and do not care about the range of just under 300 miles (for most Teslas) with the subsidies and credits, they do make sense.

When they will total suck is when everyone else starts getting EVs and you get socked with a mileage tax, way higher electric bills (that we get us all, whether you have an EV or not), and the subsidies go away.

If you have long distance travel in your plans (especially in the West) EVs will completely blow. And not in a good way.

Posted by: Evi L. Bloggerlady at June 16, 2023 11:58 AM (8yM+6)

236 But as it stands, battery-powered EVs with Lithium chemistry cannot do the job they're being asked to do, which is carry the entire road transport burden.
Posted by: Joe Mannix (Not a cop!) at June 16, 2023 11:51

I agree with this. Clearly.

Idk I get very confused discussing the idea of efficiency and practicality issues in re the future w ppl.

"Batteries" seem like a not crucial thing to EVs.

It's all a very strange thing to me. Prob because I don't really care. Idk

Posted by: Thesokorus at June 16, 2023 11:58 AM (Sd67k)

237
How long until California bans the sale of gasoline? You know it’s coming.

The ban will last for a few months, until affluent douchenozzles start caterwauling that they can't get DoorDash deliveries of sushi because the delivery people can't fuel their cars.

Which will mean an exception to the rule for commercial customers.

Which will cause an explosion of new, yet unprofitable businesses whose only capital asset is a car or truck.

Posted by: IllTemperedCur at June 16, 2023 11:58 AM (n+4am)

238 So much math in here it puts a Monty DOOM thread to shame. Thanks for digging into the Tesla credit sales.

Posted by: Draki at June 16, 2023 11:58 AM (hHtOy)

239 Smoke, mirrors, accounting tricks, regulatory bullshittery. Sounds about right.

Posted by: Par for the course these days at June 16, 2023 11:58 AM (fE1zA)

240 You seem to be IDK, heartless!
You are defending taking money from the poor to give to the rich.
Posted by: AZ deplorable moron at June 16, 2023 11:56 AM (IHLk9)

The point is there is a strong hatred of EV technology itself, over and above any political or economic bullshittery happening. As if a kneejerk pavlovian snarl is required to prove one's political bona fides or something.

Posted by: Warai-otoko at June 16, 2023 11:58 AM (/EuRN)

241 Let’s face it.

EV’s are overpriced hunks of shit.

Hunks. Of. Shit.

Posted by: Hairyback Guy at June 16, 2023 11:58 AM (R/m4+)

242 Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez Press Release (parody)@AOCpressTwo·5h
Good morning - one day closer until cow farts turn Earth into one big erupting volcano with smoldering hot lava turning every person on the planet into a painful melting goo of burnt death.

Have a good day.

Posted by: andycanuck (Vwz3I) at June 16, 2023 11:59 AM (Vwz3I)

243 Lol, "bullshittery" is a cromulent word, isn't it?

Posted by: Warai-otoko at June 16, 2023 11:59 AM (/EuRN)

244 I always thought the idea of using capacitors(serial/parallel/magic/whatever was a neat idea for running EVs, buuuuut-

again the technology just isn't there and may never be is my understanding of the situation.

Capacitors are cool because they would seem to get around the slow recharge problem of batteries.

Not sure though, maybe you Big Brains in Moorland can tell me- is the issue that if a Capacitor"Battery" charges quickly, it also has to discharge quickly?

Posted by: naturalfake at June 16, 2023 11:59 AM (fb7jX)

245 232 >There do seem ppl here with an actual animus toward EV cars. But idk.

Posted by: Thesokorus

I think they're great for 75 year old geezers who want to zip around the golf courses in The Villages.

Posted by: Tom Servo at June 16, 2023 11:59 AM (i9ffA)

246 217 they figured out how to make a gun out of plastic. Maybe one day we'll see a plastic battery.

Can't have that. Some terrorist will smuggle it aboard an airliner.

Some idiot member of Congress

Posted by: bill in arkansas, not gonna comply with nuttin, waiting for the 0300 knock on the door at June 16, 2023 11:59 AM (rLD7a)

247 In reality, battery technology, while improving, is doing so at a slow rate, but that hasn't stopped people from explaining for the last forty years that we are on the verge of a "breakthrough" in battery tech.

A woman at my old lab made an entire career out of how she was going to completely revolutionize batteries...within 5 years. We're still waiting.

Posted by: Archimedes at June 16, 2023 11:59 AM (eOEVl)

248 FUUUUUUUUUU-

Moorland = Moronland

Thx, AC.

Posted by: naturalfake at June 16, 2023 12:00 PM (fb7jX)

249 The transcontinental RR is the perfect example of crony capitalism. Cheap materials, payoffs , terrible route in order to do layoffs, etc.

What makes it such a good example is you have the privately built transcontinental RR , The great Northern to compare it to.

Posted by: polynikes at June 16, 2023 12:00 PM (WxkE9)

250 "Batteries" seem like a not crucial thing to EVs.

It's all a very strange thing to me. Prob because I don't really care. Idk
Posted by: Thesokorus

Batteries are like hearts to humans. EVs don't work without them.

Posted by: rickb223 at June 16, 2023 12:00 PM (nW4TA)

251 Apropos of little, I recently took an Uber ride in a Tesla. Very underwhelming. Doors were weird to open from outside and inside- don't see any advantages to this type except that it is "different". Inside the vehicle is blah, and the absence of car gauges, dials, etc. is weird to me along with just a large computer screen for the driver to operate the car. I know that there are different models of Teslas and maybe some are more jazzed up but seriously can't understand the attraction. Maybe I'm just too old-school.

Posted by: Cheri at June 16, 2023 12:00 PM (oiNtH)

252 I predict by 2100 all vehicles will be powered by nuclear reactors. Mr. Atom for Masses!

Posted by: Lost In Space at June 16, 2023 12:00 PM (qxLut)

253 The point is there is a strong hatred of EV technology itself, over and above any political or economic bullshittery happening. As if a kneejerk pavlovian snarl is required to prove one's political bona fides or something.

Posted by: Warai-otoko at June 16, 2023 11:58 AM (/EuRN)
241 Let’s face it.

EV’s are overpriced hunks of shit.

Hunks. Of. Shit.

Heh.

Posted by: Archimedes at June 16, 2023 12:00 PM (eOEVl)

254
If I paint a "+" and a "-" on my gas tank, I'll have a trans-electric car that actually works for the long haul.
Posted by: t-bird at June 16, 2023 11:57 AM (A0/af)

this. And fashion the exhaust to look like an outlet.

Posted by: Sponge - F*ck Joe Biden at June 16, 2023 12:00 PM (Zz0t1)

255 Just made a road trip from Maine to Maryland and back in my Hummer H1. I got about 15mpg which was pretty impressive. One stop before the GWB for pooch and driver to piss, topped off both tanks and I was off again in about 10 minutes - and didn't stop till I was in Maine - with 3/4ths of my aux tank still full. With traffic it still took 10 hours. I couldn't imagine making that trip in an EV and having to stop for at least 20 minutes to get 80% charge, then having to do it again and again....

Posted by: Defenestratus at June 16, 2023 12:00 PM (SMgtR)

256 We have been paying for every step of the progressive/communist agenda since day one. FDR and his income tax bullshit!! Spit...

Posted by: Rudder the Seal....formerly I'm Gumby Damn it! at June 16, 2023 12:01 PM (kUjcc)

257 There was also a lot of subsidy and assistance for the railroads - and we paid a massive fiscal and economic price for it.
Posted by: Joe Mannix (Not a cop!)
---------
Encyclopedia.com

"Although these figures (subsidies) are immense and would appear to suggest that the American railroad system was built largely on the basis of government aid, this is actually not the case. In fact, only 18,738 miles of railroad line were built as a direct result of these land grants and loans. This figure represents only eight percent of the total railroad mileage built in the United States between 1860 and 1920. The government program was important because the building of these lines opened up the trans-Mississippi West and stimulated settlement, but most of the railroads were built by private enterprise—in some cases with state and local support."

Much of the panics in the 1893's were caused by gold std rather than the huge foreign investment in US railroads.

Posted by: whig at June 16, 2023 12:01 PM (Sngr5)

258 T-storm here, not too bad

Posted by: Skip at June 16, 2023 12:01 PM (yQzOF)

259 they figured out how to make a gun out of plastic. Maybe one day we'll see a plastic battery.

Good for one shot. Same as the gun.

Posted by: rickb223 at June 16, 2023 12:01 PM (nW4TA)

260 this. And fashion the exhaust to look like an outlet.
Posted by: Sponge - F*ck Joe Biden at June 16, 2023 12:00 PM (Zz0t1)

Someone made a 3D print model of a gas gap that will actually accept an EV charger. You put this gas cap over your tank, then put the EV charger on it to make it look like you're charging your car. It's a great way to get good parking spots in otherwise empty EV spots.

Posted by: Defenestratus at June 16, 2023 12:02 PM (SMgtR)

261 Tax Revolt!

Posted by: Rudder the Seal....formerly I'm Gumby Damn it! at June 16, 2023 12:02 PM (kUjcc)

262 I couldn't imagine making that trip in an EV and having to stop for at least 20 minutes to get 80% charge, then having to do it again and again....
Posted by: Defenestratus at June 16, 2023 12:00 PM (SMgtR)

Because battery cars are being propagated to corral you, not set you free.

LONG GONE are the days of "See the USA in your Chevrolet!"

Posted by: Sponge - F*ck Joe Biden at June 16, 2023 12:02 PM (Zz0t1)

263 My working theory on EV's is that they'll never be produced in the numbers people think. That's by design. As companies build fewer ICE vehicles, but also don't ramp up production of EV's due to (pick any reason you want) the overall supply of personal vehicles will dwindle. That's by design too.

WEF put out a paper stating that the peasants will no longer be allowed to have cars. EVs are purely distraction, but right-leaning sites keep taking the bait.

Posted by: Ian S. at June 16, 2023 12:02 PM (ZGrMX)

264 Mr. Mannix, isn't it about time for one of your lady friends to weigh in on EVs?

Posted by: Lost In Space at June 16, 2023 12:02 PM (qxLut)

265 If you made an EV ultralight, you might get away with decent statistics. But you can't, because all that weight is needed for the million and one safety standards a car has to clear.
Posted by: Warai-otoko at June 16, 2023 11:53 AM (/EuRN)
---
That's probably among the reasons why solar-powered cars are just an expensive science experiment. Yeah, you can make a solar-powered car that will easily do interstate speeds, but you throw out everything that a normal car has, including incidentals like air conditioning and numerous safety features (though seatbelts are still required, of course).

Posted by: "Perfessor" Squirrel at June 16, 2023 12:02 PM (YIVH2)

266 Most people forget that the US had a robust zeppelin program that ended in disaster.
_____

There is a building in downtown Cleveland that has a zeppelin tether and a fancy dining/ball-room on the top floor that served the flying public at the time. Strange to realize that was once a thing.

Posted by: Chuck Martel at June 16, 2023 12:02 PM (fs1hN)

267 The point is there is a strong hatred of EV technology itself, over and above any political or economic bullshittery happening. As if a kneejerk pavlovian snarl is required to prove one's political bona fides or something.
Posted by: Warai-otoko

Pointing out the foibles of a product does not infer *hate* for the technology.
Rechargeable batteries for small garden, phones, computers don't get the same amount of pushback as EV.

Try to not conflate EV with rechargeable small products for a better argument.

Posted by: AZ deplorable moron at June 16, 2023 12:02 PM (IHLk9)

268 Posted by: Warai-otoko at June 16, 2023 11:58 AM (/EuRN)

How can you tell that it goes beyond the objective criticisms if the objective criticisms continue to exist?

Posted by: polynikes at June 16, 2023 12:02 PM (WxkE9)

269
Someone made a 3D print model of a gas gap that will actually accept an EV charger. You put this gas cap over your tank, then put the EV charger on it to make it look like you're charging your car. It's a great way to get good parking spots in otherwise empty EV spots.
Posted by: Defenestratus at June 16, 2023 12:02 PM (SMgtR)

EmEffing GENIUS!

Posted by: Sponge - F*ck Joe Biden at June 16, 2023 12:03 PM (Zz0t1)

270 You seem to be IDK, heartless!
You are defending taking money from the poor to give to the rich.
Posted by: AZ deplorable moron at June

Fwiw, I wasn't using idk facetiously. I actually don't know.

Bad things being done in support of some thing does not make that thing bad.

I honestly don't know if EVs are bad or gokd or lame or cool or whatever.

It's hard to determine without massive time investment.

Posted by: Thesokorus at June 16, 2023 12:03 PM (Sd67k)

271 "Batteries" seem like a not crucial thing to EVs.

It's all a very strange thing to me. Prob because I don't really care. Idk
Posted by: Thesokorus at June 16, 2023 11:58 AM (Sd67k)
++++
It's central to EVs. In order to move anything, you need power and that power by definition has to be portable. If your power source is electricity, there has to be a way to store electricity and that means batteries.

If your power source is fire, you have to store combustion potential somewhere and take it with you. That means fuel like gasoline.

Unless electrical energy storage (batteries) can be solved in a way that can do the job, EVs are a dead letter. The alternative to batteries is something monumentally expensive and limited/limiting (for example, overhead wires - like some train routes use in that narrow use case) or something hypothetically possible but with no known means to accomplish (like extracting static electricity from the surrounding atmosphere). Unless something like that can happen, "EV" means "battery-powered" and the problems related to replacing all transport with EVs cannot be solved.

Posted by: Joe Mannix (Not a cop!) at June 16, 2023 12:03 PM (t0OGg)

272 Zepplins should have been.
Posted by: Thesokorus
ElectroZepps run low on juice over Atlantic, need to lighten the load. Abramowitz, step forward. We've all read this story.

Posted by: Eromero at June 16, 2023 12:03 PM (Uv0D2)

273 Mr. Mannix, isn't it about time for one of your lady friends to weigh in on EVs?
Posted by: Lost In Space at June 16, 2023 12:02 PM (qxLut)

See comment 227.

Posted by: Sponge - F*ck Joe Biden at June 16, 2023 12:03 PM (Zz0t1)

274 234 USS Akron, USS Macon. Airborne aircraft carriers. Taking the hook and getting hauled in must have taken a bit of coordination.

Posted by: bill in arkansas, not gonna comply with nuttin, waiting for the 0300 knock on the door at June 16, 2023 12:04 PM (rLD7a)

275
well, they figured out how to make guns out of plastic

maybe one day we'll see a plastic battery
disclaimer: my knowledge of materials science is limited

Posted by: DB - at June 16, 2023 11:55 AM

Gaston Clock has entered the chat

Posted by: AltonJackson at June 16, 2023 12:04 PM (ENBF0)

276 Ian Miles Cheong @stillgray · 3h
The city council of Hamtramck, Michigan, the only U.S. city with an all-Muslim governing body and mayor, passed a resolution to prohibit the display of LGBTQ Pride flags on all city properties.

Posted by: andycanuck (Vwz3I) at June 16, 2023 12:04 PM (Vwz3I)

277 explaining for the last forty years that we are on the verge of a "breakthrough" in battery tech.

The next fourteen years are critical. We need this breakthrough in time for the Bicentennial of the electric vehicle in 2037. Any day now...

Posted by: t-bird at June 16, 2023 12:04 PM (Sv58p)

278 My Roomba sez EV cars are not ready for primetime…

Posted by: tubal at June 16, 2023 12:04 PM (PCK5/)

279 There is a building in downtown Cleveland that has a zeppelin tether and a fancy dining/ball-room on the top floor that served the flying public at the time. Strange to realize that was once a thing.
Posted by: Chuck Martel at June 16, 2023 12:02 PM (fs1hN)

As does the Empire State Building.

Posted by: polynikes at June 16, 2023 12:04 PM (WxkE9)

280 Just think if we could build a giant airship with propulsion provided by massive amounts of rechargeable lead-acid batteries fed by solar cells on the top. We could call it a Lead Zeppelin.

Posted by: Tom Servo at June 16, 2023 12:04 PM (i9ffA)

281 The point is there is a strong hatred of EV technology itself, over and above any political or economic bullshittery happening. As if a kneejerk pavlovian snarl is required to prove one's political bona fides or something.

Posted by: Warai-otoko
--------
I don't hate EV's but forcing people to give up ICE vehicles makes me dislike people that issue hyperbolic claims for them.

A) they are not environmentally friendly, B) they do not help with 'greenhouse gas' emission except by directly limiting the distance of transportation, C) we do not have a grid to supply these vehicles if everyone is forced to adopt them, D) there is no reason to subsidize them for individual consumption/purchase if they are a superior choice.

Want a car that is environmentally friendly, then a nuclear-electric mini reactor already developed for space probes is probably the best bet other than a used ICE vehicle.

Posted by: whig at June 16, 2023 12:05 PM (Sngr5)

282 Unless something like that can happen, "EV" means "battery-powered" and the problems related to replacing all transport with EVs cannot be solved.
___

What if the battery is charged up via a gas powered engine that is also carried in the car? That would solve a lot of the problems. Just spitballin' here.

Posted by: Chuck Martel at June 16, 2023 12:05 PM (fs1hN)

283 USS Akron, which not only killed the crew but the Captain, a Rear Admiral, an Admiral, and several high placed observers involved in the Navy's aeronautics program. When it's sister ship the Macon crashed 2 years later, the US Airship program crashed for good with it.
Posted by: Tom Servo at June 16, 2023 11:58 AM (i9ffA)

I would like to see the US Navy restart their air ship program using only hydrogen.

Then take the Chiefs Of Staff and all members of the US Congress on trips each week.

They can even let Joe Biden drive.

A Man Can Dream.

Posted by: Hairyback Guy at June 16, 2023 12:05 PM (R/m4+)

284 Much of the panics in the 1893's were caused by gold std rather than the huge foreign investment in US railroads.
Posted by: whig at June 16, 2023 12:01 PM (Sngr5)
++++
The government support and cronyism in the railroads wasn't what led directly to the panic, but the railroad bubble *did* help bring that depression down on the economy.

Would there have been a railroad bubble in the first place without the land grant system and various other supports? Dunno. My guess is "no" but it's impossible to say for sure.

Posted by: Joe Mannix (Not a cop!) at June 16, 2023 12:05 PM (t0OGg)

285 LONG GONE are the days of "See the USA in your Chevrolet!"
Posted by: Sponge - F*ck Joe Biden at June 16, 2023 12:02 PM
Dinah Shore, baby!

Posted by: Eromero at June 16, 2023 12:06 PM (Uv0D2)

286 271 Unless electrical energy storage (batteries) can be solved in a way that can do the job, EVs are a dead letter. The alternative to batteries is something monumentally expensive and limited/limiting (for example, overhead wires - like some train routes use in that narrow use case) or something hypothetically possible but with no known means to accomplish (like extracting static electricity from the surrounding atmosphere). Unless something like that can happen, "EV" means "battery-powered" and the problems related to replacing all transport with EVs cannot be solved.
Posted by: Joe Mannix (Not a cop!) at June 16, 2023 12:03 PM (t0OGg)

========

I'm just waiting for Mr. Fusion to hit market.

Posted by: TheJamesMadison, perfectly captured in the frame by William Wyler at June 16, 2023 12:06 PM (LvTSG)

287 THE BOSS IS UPSTAIRS WITH A NOO

Posted by: Skip at June 16, 2023 12:06 PM (yQzOF)

288 Taxi / Uber / Lyft drivers using Teslas in downtown areas, running their cars all day and rapid charging at night will soon learn the follies of recharging batteries effects on longevity.

Posted by: Sponge - F*ck Joe Biden at June 16, 2023 12:06 PM (Zz0t1)

289 The city council of Hamtramck, Michigan, the only U.S. city with an all-Muslim governing body and mayor, passed a resolution to prohibit the display of LGBTQ Pride flags on all city properties.

JJ had that yesterday in his post.

Posted by: Ian S. at June 16, 2023 12:06 PM (ZGrMX)

290 I would like to see the US Navy restart their air ship program using only hydrogen.

Paint it all rainbow, get all of the gay brass on it (if they fit), and Bob's your uncle.

Posted by: Ian S. at June 16, 2023 12:07 PM (ZGrMX)

291 ... A) they are not environmentally friendly, B) they do not help with 'greenhouse gas' emission except by directly limiting the distance of transportation, C) we do not have a grid to supply these vehicles if everyone is forced to adopt them, D) there is no reason to subsidize them for individual consumption/purchase if they are a superior choice. ...
Posted by: whig at June 16, 2023 12:05 PM (Sngr5)
++++
E) There isn't enough lithium to even approach a like-for-like replacement of traditional road transport vehicles with EV.

Posted by: Joe Mannix (Not a cop!) at June 16, 2023 12:07 PM (t0OGg)

292 285 LONG GONE are the days of "See the USA in your Chevrolet!"
Posted by: Sponge - F*ck Joe Biden at June 16, 2023 12:02 PM
Dinah Shore, baby!
Posted by: Eromero at June 16, 2023 12:06 PM (Uv0D2)

See the Back End of the Tow Truck in your Rivian!

Posted by: Tom Servo at June 16, 2023 12:07 PM (i9ffA)

293 Pointing out the foibles of a product does not infer *hate* for the technology.
Rechargeable batteries for small garden, phones, computers don't get the same amount of pushback as EV.

Try to not conflate EV with rechargeable small products for a better argument.
Posted by: AZ deplorable moron at June 16, 2023 12:02 PM (IHLk9)
---
Exactly. Microbatteries are fantastic for certain applications, such as earbuds. I use electric-powered garden tools (some battery, one corded) because I have a small yard and don't need much juice.

The problem is scaling up the energy storage to support moving a massive vehicle compared to the miniscule current requirements for smaller applications. It may not even be possible with the physics we currently understand.

Posted by: "Perfessor" Squirrel at June 16, 2023 12:08 PM (YIVH2)

294 I'm just waiting for Mr. Fusion to hit market.
Posted by: TheJamesMadison, perfectly captured in the frame by William Wyler at June 16, 2023 12:06 PM (LvTSG)
++++
Sure. If something like that happens, then all vehicles will be EVs in a matter of years.

Posted by: Joe Mannix (Not a cop!) at June 16, 2023 12:08 PM (t0OGg)

295
Batteries are like hearts to humans. EVs don't work without them.
Posted by: rickb223 at June 16, 2023 12:00 PM (nW4TA)

Like I said the whole conversation/argument to me is like people using different definitions of words.

Posted by: Thesokorus at June 16, 2023 12:08 PM (Sd67k)

296 T-storm here, not too bad
Posted by: Skip

Same here; we certainly need the rain !

Posted by: JT at June 16, 2023 12:08 PM (T4tVD)

297 280 Just think if we could build a giant airship with propulsion provided by massive amounts of rechargeable lead-acid batteries fed by solar cells on the top. We could call it a Lead Zeppelin.
Posted by: Tom Servo
-----
Fitting, I think it was Keith Moon (although John Entwistle claimed it also) that coined the phrase for the band (he was drinking buddies with John Bonham). Led Zep forum link https://tinyurl.com/6fzeyy7y

Posted by: whig at June 16, 2023 12:08 PM (Sngr5)

298 "callipygian" is a great word.

Posted by: anchorbabe fashion cop at June 16, 2023 12:10 PM (ufFY8)

299 The degenerates upstairs didn't call it.

NOOD FOX

Posted by: Joe Mannix (Not a cop!) at June 16, 2023 12:11 PM (t0OGg)

300 Anti-Zepplin ppl can get fucked!

Posted by: Thesokorus at June 16, 2023 12:12 PM (Sd67k)

301 241: Res tantum valet quantum vendi potest.

Posted by: Catch Thirty-Thr33 at June 16, 2023 12:12 PM (odBp6)

302 The point is there is a strong hatred of EV technology itself, over and above any political or economic bullshittery happening. As if a kneejerk pavlovian snarl is required to prove one's political bona fides or something.
Posted by: Warai-otoko at June 16, 2023 11:58 AM (/EuRN)

___

It's a parallel to leftists and guns. Leftists hate people who own guns, therefore the guns themselves must be bad too.

Posted by: Montec at June 16, 2023 12:14 PM (OalnH)

303 Much of the panics in the 1893's were caused by gold std rather than the huge foreign investment in US railroads.
Posted by: whig at June 16, 2023 12:01 PM (Sngr5)

Congress heavily subsidized the railroads in their expansion, and that was done from the 1850's on. Most of the railroads were forced into reorganization because of that, the subsidies distorted the market away from the needs of the consumer. (besides Sam Hill who didn't accept subsidies)
The distortions are one of the reason the various lines tried to develop a cartel to fix prices and profits by the way.

I am not saying that the gold/silver purchase act did not cause huge problems as well, but the panics had various causes, not just one

Fun fact: General Wm. Sherman's brother, Senator John Sherman fo Ohio, was balls deep both in the antitrust act and the Silver purchase act, both done out of the desire to be President the way his brother the General refused to be.

Posted by: Kindltot at June 16, 2023 12:14 PM (xhaym)

304 The city council of Hamtramck, Michigan, the only U.S. city with an all-Muslim governing body and mayor, passed a resolution to prohibit the display of LGBTQ Pride flags on all city properties.

___

DURING PRIDE MONTH!!??!?!

Posted by: Montec at June 16, 2023 12:15 PM (OalnH)

305 It's a parallel to leftists and guns. Leftists hate people who own guns, therefore the guns themselves must be bad too.
Posted by: Montec
-------
Do you realize how idiotic that thesis is? No one here is opposing others from buying an EV--what they oppose is subsidizing it and banning ICE engines.

Leftists hate people on the right for buying guns period and seek to ban the whole market. Your idea would also have to include leftists opposing governments giving tax credits to individual people to buy guns to combat crime for example.

No one here is suggesting banning EV's but simply want to be left alone to buy their own bit of technology aka ICE engines without having to pay for EV owners fun.

Posted by: whig at June 16, 2023 12:21 PM (Sngr5)

306 You should see serpentza's latest on China's EV graveyards: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1SEfwoqKRU8

Posted by: JSchuler at June 16, 2023 12:21 PM (l6eKM)

307 Congress heavily subsidized the railroads in their expansion, and that was done from the 1850's on. Most of the railroads were forced into reorganization because of that, the subsidies distorted the market away from the needs of the consumer. (besides Sam Hill who didn't accept subsidies)
The distortions are one of the reason the various lines tried to develop a cartel to fix prices and profits by the way.

I am not saying that the gold/silver purchase act did not cause huge problems as well, but the panics had various causes, not just one

Fun fact: General Wm. Sherman's brother, Senator John Sherman fo Ohio, was balls deep both in the antitrust act and the Silver purchase act, both done out of the desire to be President the way his brother the General refused to be.
Posted by: Kindltot
----------
Economic historians as noted in my post above have the federal subsidies about at 8% or so of the mileage constructed. You saw similar subsidies for road construction in the 20's but no one seriously believes that paved roads led to the Great Depression.

There were some state and local subsidies but GA for example owned its railroad lines and rented it to RR companies even today.

Posted by: whig at June 16, 2023 12:25 PM (Sngr5)

308 At that price, the company that blinks first and chooses not to business in CA will win, because their prices will be several percentage points lower than the competition's.
Posted by: Joe Mannix (Not a cop!) at June 16, 2023 11:13 AM (t0OGg)
==
And Toyota is preparing to undercut all the EV mfgs, by going hydrogen, along with their currrent hybrid lineup. They will be the car manufacturer who breaks away first - and they will destroy probably GM in the process, whose current CEO is as inept as Immelt was at GE, only GM won't survive her.

Posted by: Black JEM at June 16, 2023 01:02 PM (UVyKP)

309 No battery has the same energy as the same size & weight as gasoline.
Posted by: rickb223 at June 16, 2023 11:41 AM

Yes. But that is now. You see insufficient or no rokm for increases in efficiency?

Honest question.
Posted by: Thesokorus at June 16, 2023 11:43 AM

Gasoline doesn't just have a greater energy density than even the best batteries, it has orders of magnitude more energy density than the best batteries. The fact of the matter is that batteries have been under development for about twice as long as internal combustion engines and we are way out on the "diminishing returns side" of the innovation curve for batteries.

There are two reasons to believe that you won't ever see batteries with an energy density comparable to gasoline. First, you can cheat with gasoline and just use the air around you as an oxidizer. Second, in a battery the reagents must be in physical contact in order to be a battery. The energy released by the reaction can be increased, but at the cost of making the battery less stable. If the battery isn't stable enough, you get spontaneous fires. So, while there are reasons to expect batteries to get better, they won't get enough better.

Posted by: Cybersmythe at June 16, 2023 01:10 PM (jTI4p)

310 Where the fuck did "Carbon Credits" even come from?
Posted by: Fisht at June 16, 2023 11:23 AM (ZRarh)
==
Goldman Sachs and Enron

Posted by: Black JEM at June 16, 2023 01:12 PM (UVyKP)

311 Untrue re Zepplins and I am angry.

Posted by: Thesokorus at June 16, 2023 11:53 AM

Oh, wow. Airships suck as a transportation mechanism. People tried to make them a thing, but it didn't happen because airships suck.

I've got YouTube comment where I go into detail, but the fundamental insurmountable issue with airships is that they rely upon the displacement of air for their lift and air just isn't very dense. That means that airships have to be huge to lift a tiny payload, which means that they're fragile. Blimps work better, but they're still not very good at transporting things.

Posted by: Cybersmythe at June 16, 2023 01:31 PM (jTI4p)

312
One thing about Rivian, that is their differentiator from other EVs, is that the drive motors are in the wheels.

IIRC, the magnets are in the rims, and the wiring and electronics are in the axle/suspension assembly.

Thus, if one of the wheels gets sufficiently biffed, say against a curb, the repair is a part swap, a new rim, possibly some suspension parts, and a big pile of money.

Posted by: Arbalest at June 16, 2023 01:45 PM (FlRtG)

313 I'm sorry I missed the bulk of this conversation.

Tesla does get money from the government, and there was a point where the only reason it was profitable was that money, but they are past that point now. Tesla is very profitable now and would do fine if all the government money dried up.

Tesla had to not only build the cars but also build out their own charging network. The government money made this possible and now Tesla is sitting pretty, but it would have been better for Tesla in the early days if someone else had built the charging network for them.

The $7500 per car is available to any company making EVs, as part of the "Inflation Reduction Act" (which spends money and will increase inflation). I am worried that the Democrats didn't pay attention to how much that Act will cost... it offers big piles of money not only for making EVs but also for making batteries and other stuff. It's going to cost huge $$$

Rivian and Lucid are both in big trouble. They are trying to copy the Tesla playbook... but Tesla had first mover advantage and they have to compete with Tesla, which will be hard.

Posted by: mr_jack at June 16, 2023 02:52 PM (LNPSJ)

314 EVs have not had a "Model T" yet. Tesla announced that they have figured out how to build cars in a way that will cut their costs in half. No other American company has figured out how to build EVs at a profit... Tesla is very profitable per car, and has figured out how to cut their costs in half. Just like the Model T, the new car Tesla will build will not only cost less but be manufactured in huge numbers.

Where Tesla will make the crazy money is robotaxis. It's only a matter of time before Tesla's self-driving AI is good enough to operate a taxi service, and when that happens (and assuming they can get the permission to operate the service) Tesla would be able to offer rides much cheaper than the cost of Uber or Lyft. The ongoing expenses of an EV (maintenance and "fuel") are much less than the expenses of an ICE vehicle, and there is no need to pay a driver. Less expensive for passengers, very profitable for Tesla. Money printer.

Some futurists are projecting that robotaxis will cost so much less that most people (at least, most people who live in cities and towns) will switch to using robotaxis for most of their trips.

Posted by: mr_jack at June 16, 2023 02:59 PM (LNPSJ)

315 The transition from ICE vehicles to EVs is inevitable now. Chinese Manufacturers are able to crank out a lot of low-cost EVs, which will wash over the US market. If it weren't for Tesla, EVs would be majority Chinese cars; thanks to Tesla, a US company has the majority of EV sales in the US.

EVs are cheaper to operate, not needing oil changes, not needing belts and hoses and such. They are much simpler (many fewer parts) so there is less to break. Teslas from 10 years ago still have useful range... the battery packs don't degrade too severely over time. (Contrast with Nissan Leaf cars from 10 years ago. The Teslas cost more than the Nissans, but were better-engineered.)

It's absolutely true that gasoline or diesel have huge energy density compared to a battery. My own car has a batter pack that weighs over a ton and holds a similar amount of energy to three gallons of gasoline. But, my car could drive 335 miles when it was new, and still can drive 310 miles, on just the electricity. I've taken it on some road trips and it works for me.

Posted by: mr_jack at June 16, 2023 03:06 PM (LNPSJ)

316 As for "remote emissions", I don't really care about "carbon" emissions because I'm not convinced that the global warming catastrophe is a real thing. But if you buy that snake oil, rest assured: Tesla calculated that once you have driven a Tesla car at least 6000 miles, you are now at less "carbon" emissions than an ICE vehicle.

If Tony Seba and other futurists are right, and I'm convinced they are, in the future most of our energy will be from wind and solar power (backed up with batteries). If this "zero carbon" energy is the standard, then EVs will be "zero carbon" completely. (The reason I believe Tony Seba is that he made a convincing case for the economics. Once utilities build the solar/wind they get power for free because wind and sunlight are free. Utilities will build solar and wind because they like to make money.)

One of the good things about EVs that that even if an idiot owns one and doesn't do anything to maintain it, it still won't belch black or blue smoke when driving around.

Posted by: mr_jack at June 16, 2023 03:11 PM (LNPSJ)

317 #309 @Cybersmythe

It's true that gasoline has an advantage of being able to use ambient air as an oxidizer.

The big advantage EVs have over gasoline is that they can do "regenerative braking" where just slowing the car down puts energy back into the battery pack.

Gasoline cars cannot make gasoline and put it back into the gas tank.

EVs have a scale advantage because it's easier to move electrons around than to move gasoline around. Gasoline is a thing that has to be moved around on trucks or whatever, while electricity can flow through wires.

Also, I have solar panels on my house and I can actually charge my own car. I don't have a gasoline refinery at my house.

EVs and gasoline vehicles both have strengths and weaknesses compared to each other. For really long trips, or hauling heavy things like a trailer full of horses, gasoline or diesel vehicles would be the best. For my daily life, and IMHO for most city-dwellers' daily lives, EVs work perfectly well and have major cost advantages in the long term.

Posted by: mr_jack at June 16, 2023 03:17 PM (LNPSJ)

318 I'm a conservative, but I can see you know zippo about EV market. These rants won't age well, that I can assure you.
Tesla is profitable without EV credits. It's been shown time and time again. SMH

Posted by: JoeNYC at June 16, 2023 05:06 PM (sX15q)

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