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Criminal Justice And Guns: Should Felons Be Barred From Gun Ownership?
The Gun Control Act of 1968 has done tremendous damage to the freedoms we hold dear. It has created an unaccountable bureaucracy that has systematically chipped away at those freedoms, and has done very little to protect Americans from "gun violence," whatever that is!
Is there a legitimate government interest in controlling the possession of firearms? As a 2nd Amendment absolutist I say, "no." But as a rational observer of the human condition I will grant that in certain circumstances there may be societal demands that trump those freedoms. But that is the slippery slope that has led to "Red Flag" laws, which are stunningly anti-freedom and an affront to the concept of a free people's right to due process and a rational legal system. The short answer is: Any loss of our freedoms must be preceded by all of the guarantees of a fair trial codified in the United States Constitution. If the government or your neighbor wants to take your guns? Go to trial. But current U.S. law also mandates the loss of 2nd Amendment rights if (among other things) one is convicted of a felony, or a misdemeanor crime of domestic violence (Why misdemeanor domestic violence is as bad as a felony is a question for another day). Oh, and marijuana use is another one, even though it is legal for recreational use in many states! Any functioning society must have a criminal justice system that imprisons lawbreakers. That is axiomatic. But inherent in that system must be clearly defined punishment. And if a felon serves his prison sentence and is released to rejoin society, then why are his 2nd Amendment rights curtailed? Are felons magically protected from violence and thus have no need for self defense? Obviously no. And all but six states restore their voting rights eventually. Are felons barred from exercising any other rights protected by the Constitution? Can they exercise their free speech rights? Are they safe from unreasonable search and seizure (after probation ends)? Must they house soldiers in wartime? The obvious and sensible argument is that felons have demonstrated that they are willing to break significant laws, and that society has an interest in keeping them from access to weapons that might make their next forays into crime even worse than their original crimes. But that is simply extending their incarceration past the legal penalty as decided by a jury. And it also assumes that citizens who possess weapons legally also commit crimes with them, which is a ridiculous assumption, and one that can be refuted with reams of data. What's that? Am I going around in circles? Why yes...yes I am! [Cross-posted at CutJibNewsletter.com]Comments
(Jump to bottom of comments)1
I'll fetch em
Posted by: Skip at February 05, 2023 12:00 PM (xhxe8)
2
Howdy, CBD!
Posted by: Duke Lowell at February 05, 2023 12:00 PM (u73oe)
3
Yo
Posted by: Martini Farmer at February 05, 2023 12:02 PM (Q4IgG)
4
Yes they have to house the soldiers, but the soldiers can't have guns.
Posted by: Quarter Twenty at February 05, 2023 12:02 PM (HR14R)
5
If felons cannot be trusted in public with access to any weapon they should be confined to a prison where they can only hurt another felon.
Posted by: Itinerant Alley Butcher at February 05, 2023 12:03 PM (8gl7e)
6
Howdy, CBD!
Posted by: Duke Lowell at February 05, 2023 12:00 PM (u73oe)
Good to see you!
How's tricks?
Posted by: Duke Lowell at February 05, 2023 12:00 PM (u73oe)
Good to see you!
How's tricks?
Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo at February 05, 2023 12:03 PM (XIJ/X)
7
If you serve your time, all rights restored.
Posted by: Angzarr the Cromulent at February 05, 2023 12:03 PM (S7une)
8
SCOTUS has turned down these cases every time someone has tried to argue this very thing. I seriously doubt it will ever change at least at the Federal level.
Posted by: Mister Scott (Formerly GWS) at February 05, 2023 12:03 PM (uNylN)
9
If felons cannot be trusted in public with access to any weapon they should be confined to a prison where they can only hurt another felon.
Posted by: Itinerant Alley Butcher at February 05, 2023 12:03 PM (8gl7e)
This is logical.
Posted by: Itinerant Alley Butcher at February 05, 2023 12:03 PM (8gl7e)
This is logical.
Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo at February 05, 2023 12:03 PM (XIJ/X)
10
As a condition for parole those restrictions would be acceptable
Posted by: Itinerant Alley Butcher at February 05, 2023 12:04 PM (8gl7e)
11
Not to make this TOO personal, but when my now ex-wife filed a totally baseless restraining order against me, I was made to give up possession of my firearms.
Not after I had a chance to argue in court, before. In fact, she dropped it when it became apparent it was not going to be something she'd be able to defend, nor did it serve any purpose.
But the state said I couldn't be trusted with firearms. Which, I understand the argument, but this is not due process, and it is obviously easily abused.
I don't think a felony conviction should be tied to whether firearm possession is legally possible. At all. Personally, I think if you are convicted of a felony, once you've served your sentence, you go back to being a citizen with full rights, just like everyone else.
Not after I had a chance to argue in court, before. In fact, she dropped it when it became apparent it was not going to be something she'd be able to defend, nor did it serve any purpose.
But the state said I couldn't be trusted with firearms. Which, I understand the argument, but this is not due process, and it is obviously easily abused.
I don't think a felony conviction should be tied to whether firearm possession is legally possible. At all. Personally, I think if you are convicted of a felony, once you've served your sentence, you go back to being a citizen with full rights, just like everyone else.
Posted by: BurtTC at February 05, 2023 12:04 PM (QBaJw)
12
The problem is that nobody really believes incarceration changes the person, yet we release them. Recidivism rates are extremely high, especially for crimes like sex with children. We are dealing with cognitive dissonance.
Posted by: Archimedes at February 05, 2023 12:04 PM (eOEVl)
13
Note -- My comment is stating my preference for what the law should be, not stating that it must be in order to conform to the constitution.
Posted by: Angzarr the Cromulent at February 05, 2023 12:05 PM (S7une)
14
Government is Schizophrenic. Mainly because leftist voters are stupid, and want what never was and never will be.
The government doesn't allow drug users in the military. At least, they have a vested interest in preventing drunks and potheads from operating heavy machinery.
Ultimately I think they should try really giving people what they want, good and hard.
You want free food? Well you'll need to get weighed, just like in the Army. Fallout for PT is at 6 AM.
Piss test first.
The government doesn't allow drug users in the military. At least, they have a vested interest in preventing drunks and potheads from operating heavy machinery.
Ultimately I think they should try really giving people what they want, good and hard.
You want free food? Well you'll need to get weighed, just like in the Army. Fallout for PT is at 6 AM.
Piss test first.
Posted by: Common Tater at February 05, 2023 12:05 PM (9f2LQ)
15
Itinerant Alley Butcher -- Agreed. But if you serve your full term, then my preference is that all rights are restored.
Posted by: Angzarr the Cromulent at February 05, 2023 12:06 PM (S7une)
16
It's to obvious that the Red Flag law will be abused and have no faith a court system will be fair.
Had a co-worker stripped of firearms for some time on a flimsy charge, got them all back but has to be many who wont.
Had a co-worker stripped of firearms for some time on a flimsy charge, got them all back but has to be many who wont.
Posted by: Skip at February 05, 2023 12:06 PM (xhxe8)
17
The problem is that nobody really believes incarceration changes the person, yet we release them. Recidivism rates are extremely high, especially for crimes like sex with children. We are dealing with cognitive dissonance.
IOW, we pretend that the felon has been rehabilitated, when we know he likely will reoffend.
IOW, we pretend that the felon has been rehabilitated, when we know he likely will reoffend.
Posted by: Archimedes at February 05, 2023 12:06 PM (eOEVl)
Posted by: Hairyback Guy at February 05, 2023 12:07 PM (R/m4+)
19
Still fighting WW II, give me a few here.
Posted by: exdem13 at February 05, 2023 12:07 PM (W+kMI)
20
Former felons shouldn't be permitted to own firearms.
Posted by: Skip at February 05, 2023 12:07 PM (xhxe8)
21
There are non-violent felonies so....
Posted by: Martini Farmer at February 05, 2023 12:09 PM (Q4IgG)
22
7 If you serve your time, all rights restored.
Posted by: Angzarr the Cromulent at February 05, 2023 12:03 PM (S7une)
----
Completely agree.
Posted by: Angzarr the Cromulent at February 05, 2023 12:03 PM (S7une)
----
Completely agree.
Posted by: Ciampino - Repeal that gun act at February 05, 2023 12:09 PM (qfLjt)
23
hiya
Posted by: JT at February 05, 2023 12:09 PM (T4tVD)
24
Birdbath status?
Posted by: Inquiring minds at February 05, 2023 12:10 PM (HR14R)
25
Yes I believe Felons should be barred from gun ownership and voting. There should be though a better process where they can petition for those rights to be restored. Don't do the crime if you can't do the time.
Posted by: Sebastian Melmoth at February 05, 2023 12:10 PM (Qy9+6)
26
The problem is that nobody really believes incarceration changes the person, yet we release them. Recidivism rates are extremely high, especially for crimes like sex with children. We are dealing with cognitive dissonance.
Posted by: Archimedes at February 05, 2023 12:04 PM (eOEVl)
Actually, I disagree. Very much so. Most people who go to prison are very wary about doing anything that will send them back to prison.
And the VAST majority of sex offenders... never offend again.
It's just that the exceptions grab all the headlines. And sentences are almost never handed out to effectively make prison a deterrent. Most of your repeat offenders are never sent to prison at all, or serve very short periods before being released.
But the guys who spend years inside... it does change them. Not always in good ways, but most of them try to never go back. One way or another.
Posted by: Archimedes at February 05, 2023 12:04 PM (eOEVl)
Actually, I disagree. Very much so. Most people who go to prison are very wary about doing anything that will send them back to prison.
And the VAST majority of sex offenders... never offend again.
It's just that the exceptions grab all the headlines. And sentences are almost never handed out to effectively make prison a deterrent. Most of your repeat offenders are never sent to prison at all, or serve very short periods before being released.
But the guys who spend years inside... it does change them. Not always in good ways, but most of them try to never go back. One way or another.
Posted by: BurtTC at February 05, 2023 12:10 PM (QBaJw)
27
But that is simply extending their incarceration past the legal penalty as decided by a jury.
----
I'd argue that's correct - the sentence is over or it isn't. If what you want is permanent deprivation of rights by law, then execute the convict.
But all of it is immaterial.
The current regime is illegitimate; none of its sentences are legal, and I don't recognize a single one as valid. Or the laws from which they're derived.
Every last product of our government is bitter fruit from a poisoned root, and that's all I really need to know.
But that is simply extending their incarceration past the legal penalty as decided by a jury.
----
I'd argue that's correct - the sentence is over or it isn't. If what you want is permanent deprivation of rights by law, then execute the convict.
But all of it is immaterial.
The current regime is illegitimate; none of its sentences are legal, and I don't recognize a single one as valid. Or the laws from which they're derived.
Every last product of our government is bitter fruit from a poisoned root, and that's all I really need to know.
Posted by: Yudhishthira's Dice at February 05, 2023 12:11 PM (oINRc)
28
12 The problem is that nobody really believes incarceration changes the person, yet we release them. Recidivism rates are extremely high, especially for crimes like sex with children. We are dealing with cognitive dissonance.
Posted by: Archimedes at February 05, 2023 12:04 PM (eOEVl)
----
But are pedophiles likely to use firearms in their criminal endeavors? How about knives? Blades?
Posted by: Archimedes at February 05, 2023 12:04 PM (eOEVl)
----
But are pedophiles likely to use firearms in their criminal endeavors? How about knives? Blades?
Posted by: Ciampino -- Repeal that gun act at February 05, 2023 12:12 PM (qfLjt)
29
Isn't the problem resolved if you simply say part of your punishment is loss of voting and gun rights? Incarceration needn't be the only penalty for committing a felony.
Posted by: Archimedes at February 05, 2023 12:12 PM (eOEVl)
30
I am generally sympathetic to the argument that once a felon has served his sentence, he should be readmitted to society with almost no further restrictions on him. But, there have to be some exceptions. Example, do we want to allow ex-cons to become police officers. Some guy comes off a 5 year stretch for rape and then we give him a gun and badge and tell him to go enforce the law. Probably not a good idea.
In general, I do not support restricting gun ownership for felons unless there is a mechanism in place to have both a jury and judge decide that a lifetime ban on guns is part of an individual's sentence during their trial.
In general, I do not support restricting gun ownership for felons unless there is a mechanism in place to have both a jury and judge decide that a lifetime ban on guns is part of an individual's sentence during their trial.
Posted by: No Name Today at February 05, 2023 12:12 PM (vlXMQ)
31
Don't do the crime if you can't do the time.
Posted by: Sebastian Melmoth at February 05, 2023 12:10 PM (Qy9+6)
Except they DID do the time. And they are still being penalized.
Posted by: Sebastian Melmoth at February 05, 2023 12:10 PM (Qy9+6)
Except they DID do the time. And they are still being penalized.
Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo at February 05, 2023 12:12 PM (XIJ/X)
32
Part of the statutory sentence of any felony sentencing is the loss of voting rights and gun possession.
Posted by: Sebastian Melmoth at February 05, 2023 12:13 PM (Qy9+6)
33
Blue states and cities don't bother to enforce the laws against felons possessing guns anyway.
Posted by: Hunter! at February 05, 2023 12:13 PM (2tUFv)
34
Incarceration needn't be the only penalty for committing a felony.
Posted by: Archimedes at February 05, 2023 12:12 PM (eOEVl)
I like exile to a barren wasteland....like Chicago.
Posted by: Archimedes at February 05, 2023 12:12 PM (eOEVl)
I like exile to a barren wasteland....like Chicago.
Posted by: BignJames at February 05, 2023 12:13 PM (AwYPR)
35
Except they DID do the time. And they are still being penalized.
Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo at February 05, 2023 12:12 PM (XIJ/X)
Should Child molesters have to register for life?
Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo at February 05, 2023 12:12 PM (XIJ/X)
Should Child molesters have to register for life?
Posted by: Sebastian Melmoth at February 05, 2023 12:14 PM (Qy9+6)
36
Once you've paid off your mortgage you don't have to keep paying. Except for property tax.
Posted by: Bertram Cabot, Jr. at February 05, 2023 12:14 PM (63Dwl)
37
Funny you mention marijuana users, a judge last week said barring them from firearms ownership is unconstitutional. How long his ruling will stand is now the question for potheads.
https://reut.rs/3HDZP8B
Sorry about the Reuters link, couldn't find a reputable source.
https://reut.rs/3HDZP8B
Sorry about the Reuters link, couldn't find a reputable source.
Posted by: Blanco Basura at February 05, 2023 12:14 PM (Bd6X8)
38
Bitter Fruit From The Poisoned Root used to open for KC & The Sunshine Band back in the day.
Posted by: Just Sayin' at February 05, 2023 12:14 PM (HR14R)
39
Of the various definitions for pedophilia only phallometric assessment (PAI) distinguished between sexual recidivists and nonrecidivists. Overall recidivism rates were 22.8%, 33.9%, and 45.6% for sexual, violent, and any reoffence, respectively.
I'd say that's pretty high.
https://tinyurl.com/bdhjy8h9
I'd say that's pretty high.
https://tinyurl.com/bdhjy8h9
Posted by: Archimedes at February 05, 2023 12:15 PM (eOEVl)
40
Except they DID do the time. And they are still being penalized.
Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo at February 05, 2023 12:12 PM (XIJ/X)
Also unfortunately , Don't Do the Crime if You Can't Do the Penalties doesn't rhyme.
Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo at February 05, 2023 12:12 PM (XIJ/X)
Also unfortunately , Don't Do the Crime if You Can't Do the Penalties doesn't rhyme.
Posted by: Sebastian Melmoth at February 05, 2023 12:15 PM (Qy9+6)
Posted by: JT at February 05, 2023 12:16 PM (T4tVD)
42
IOW: I don't care about high-flown legalistic reasoning until we resolve the problem of unquestionable, unapprehended felonious gangsters operating the machinery of the judiciary.
Every one of them is a criminal. Once they've all been strung up or tossed unceremoniously into oubliettes, then we can sort out some kind of operative legal framework. Til then, we're pissing in the wind.
IOW: I don't care about high-flown legalistic reasoning until we resolve the problem of unquestionable, unapprehended felonious gangsters operating the machinery of the judiciary.
Every one of them is a criminal. Once they've all been strung up or tossed unceremoniously into oubliettes, then we can sort out some kind of operative legal framework. Til then, we're pissing in the wind.
Posted by: Yudhishthira's Dice at February 05, 2023 12:16 PM (oINRc)
43
I'd argue that's correct - the sentence is over or it isn't. If what you want is permanent deprivation of rights by law, then execute the convict.
But all of it is immaterial.
The current regime is illegitimate; none of its sentences are legal, and I don't recognize a single one as valid. Or the laws from which they're derived.
Every last product of our government is bitter fruit from a poisoned root, and that's all I really need to know.
Posted by: Yudhishthira's Dice at February 05, 2023 12:11 PM (oINRc)
Yup. I find it impossible to peel any of this back to a point of being comfortable with the result. And we're not going to do any peeling back anyway.
But all of it is immaterial.
The current regime is illegitimate; none of its sentences are legal, and I don't recognize a single one as valid. Or the laws from which they're derived.
Every last product of our government is bitter fruit from a poisoned root, and that's all I really need to know.
Posted by: Yudhishthira's Dice at February 05, 2023 12:11 PM (oINRc)
Yup. I find it impossible to peel any of this back to a point of being comfortable with the result. And we're not going to do any peeling back anyway.
Posted by: BurtTC at February 05, 2023 12:16 PM (QBaJw)
44
Has the Paolo, how you say, had his phallometric "assessed?"
Posted by: Just Wondering at February 05, 2023 12:17 PM (HR14R)
45
The problem is that nobody really believes incarceration changes the person, yet we release them. Recidivism rates are extremely high, especially for crimes like sex with children. We are dealing with cognitive dissonance.
IOW, we pretend that the felon has been rehabilitated, when we know he likely will reoffend.
Posted by: Archimedes at February 05, 2023 12:06 PM
Violent criminals have over a 60% recidivism while on probation after being released from prison. That's just Federal prisons. Pretty sure most State data would be the same.
IOW, we pretend that the felon has been rehabilitated, when we know he likely will reoffend.
Posted by: Archimedes at February 05, 2023 12:06 PM
Violent criminals have over a 60% recidivism while on probation after being released from prison. That's just Federal prisons. Pretty sure most State data would be the same.
Posted by: Mister Scott (Formerly GWS) at February 05, 2023 12:17 PM (uNylN)
46
I'm assuming that those who believe banning possession of a gun by a felon also disagree with taking away the right to vote.
Posted by: Sebastian Melmoth at February 05, 2023 12:18 PM (Qy9+6)
47
who knows, an armed ex-con might save your life one day
Posted by: sofasaver at February 05, 2023 12:18 PM (us2H3)
48
COMPLETELY of topic . . .
NYPD Catches Suspect in Beating of 90-Year-Old Candy Shop Owner
-
Boy, I'll bet that'll shoot the shit out of his weekend!
NYPD Catches Suspect in Beating of 90-Year-Old Candy Shop Owner
-
Boy, I'll bet that'll shoot the shit out of his weekend!
Posted by: Anonosaurus Wrecks, Not a Real Simulation at February 05, 2023 12:18 PM (FVME7)
49
Has the Paolo, how you say, had his phallometric "assessed?"
It's rare to see the word "awesome" used in an academic paper.
It's rare to see the word "awesome" used in an academic paper.
Posted by: Archimedes at February 05, 2023 12:19 PM (eOEVl)
50
In a first, San Francisco Flooded With Concealed Carry Permit Applications
-
SF getting fed up with crime?
-
SF getting fed up with crime?
Posted by: Anonosaurus Wrecks, Not a Real Simulation at February 05, 2023 12:19 PM (FVME7)
51
SF getting fed up with crime?
Posted by: Anonosaurus Wrecks, Not a Real Simulation at February 05, 2023 12:19 PM (FVME7)
Don't give a rat's ass. They voted for this shit, now live with it
Posted by: Anonosaurus Wrecks, Not a Real Simulation at February 05, 2023 12:19 PM (FVME7)
Don't give a rat's ass. They voted for this shit, now live with it
Posted by: Nevergiveup at February 05, 2023 12:20 PM (Irn0L)
52
I want to repeat that I do think the petition process for restoration of rights is too burdensome and slow moving and needs to be reformed.
Posted by: Sebastian Melmoth at February 05, 2023 12:20 PM (Qy9+6)
53
Does the law permanently take away your driver's license in the event of you culpably killing someone with your vehicle?
Posted by: Ciampino --- Repeal that gun act at February 05, 2023 12:21 PM (qfLjt)
54
When sentences and paroles are completed, all rights should be restored. Quibble around the edges to make restoration a petition rather than automatic. If there is no chance of redemption, we are all screwed.
Posted by: mustbequantum at February 05, 2023 12:21 PM (MIKMs)
55
A judiciary that keeps two sets of books depending on the political disposition of defendants is no more capable of serving justice than a dog is capable of brewing coffee.
A judiciary that keeps two sets of books depending on the political disposition of defendants is no more capable of serving justice than a dog is capable of brewing coffee.
Posted by: Yudhishthira's Dice at February 05, 2023 12:21 PM (oINRc)
56
Of the various definitions for pedophilia only phallometric assessment (PAI) distinguished between sexual recidivists and nonrecidivists. Overall recidivism rates were 22.8%, 33.9%, and 45.6% for sexual, violent, and any reoffence, respectively.
I'd say that's pretty high.
https://tinyurl.com/bdhjy8h9
Posted by: Archimedes at February 05, 2023 12:15 PM (eOEVl)
Where'd she get her data? That's not anywhere near the numbers I've seen, and we're not talking about DSM diagnoses, we're talking about actual rates of reoffense.
The most comprehensive study I've ever seen had over 20,000 subjects, over decades, and found recidivism rates for those convicted of sex offenses, to reoffend with sex offenses, to be well less than 10%.
Now, to be convicted of other things? Sure. Mostly parole violations, but yeah, the numbers of reoffending for OTHER things can be quite high.
I'd say that's pretty high.
https://tinyurl.com/bdhjy8h9
Posted by: Archimedes at February 05, 2023 12:15 PM (eOEVl)
Where'd she get her data? That's not anywhere near the numbers I've seen, and we're not talking about DSM diagnoses, we're talking about actual rates of reoffense.
The most comprehensive study I've ever seen had over 20,000 subjects, over decades, and found recidivism rates for those convicted of sex offenses, to reoffend with sex offenses, to be well less than 10%.
Now, to be convicted of other things? Sure. Mostly parole violations, but yeah, the numbers of reoffending for OTHER things can be quite high.
Posted by: BurtTC at February 05, 2023 12:21 PM (QBaJw)
57
Does the law permanently take away your driver's license in the event of you culpably killing someone with your vehicle?
Posted by: Ciampino --- Repeal that gun act at February 05, 2023 12:21 PM (qfLjt)
It can be part of the sentencing but not automatic.
Posted by: Ciampino --- Repeal that gun act at February 05, 2023 12:21 PM (qfLjt)
It can be part of the sentencing but not automatic.
Posted by: Sebastian Melmoth at February 05, 2023 12:21 PM (Qy9+6)
58
in the abstract, restoring Constitutional rights & privileges lost by felonious conviction and incarceration seems just. And yet, well, a felon has committed a crime against society, not just against a specific individual or business institution or a piece of private property. Willful murder, arson, armed robbery, rape against any person, grand theft that imperils a corporation, even seditious action against the Constitution itself, all are felonies, and all strike at the well-being of society as well as the individual victim. You cannot convince me as a serious argument that the perpetrators of such felonies should be allowed to legally possess firearms again, and the state or federal government is just to withhold such from them when a permit application is submitted.
Posted by: exdem13 at February 05, 2023 12:21 PM (W+kMI)
59
39: What the hell is "any re-offense" that it is so much higher than what most people think of as an offense?
possession of pornography?
possession of pornography?
Posted by: PaleRider at February 05, 2023 12:21 PM (3cGpq)
60
Let me take a very unpopular contrary argument, and give my reasons:
If a person is barred from a civil right beyond his serving his time of punishment, when he is released from jail and community supervision under parole, it both makes permanently removing civil rights on a pretext normal and expected, and it turns the entire country into a low security prison, which I have to live in as well.
I don't think permanently removing civil rights on a pretext, no matter what the pretext, is moral, legal, constitutional, or will result in any good outcome.
I do not want to live in a prison, and I neither want to be an unpaid prison guard or an uncharged inmate.
If returning civil rights to a felon after his completion of sentence is dangerous, he clearly wasn't sentenced for long enough.
If a person is barred from a civil right beyond his serving his time of punishment, when he is released from jail and community supervision under parole, it both makes permanently removing civil rights on a pretext normal and expected, and it turns the entire country into a low security prison, which I have to live in as well.
I don't think permanently removing civil rights on a pretext, no matter what the pretext, is moral, legal, constitutional, or will result in any good outcome.
I do not want to live in a prison, and I neither want to be an unpaid prison guard or an uncharged inmate.
If returning civil rights to a felon after his completion of sentence is dangerous, he clearly wasn't sentenced for long enough.
Posted by: Kindltot at February 05, 2023 12:22 PM (xhaym)
61
There are over a thousand people in prison right now for homicide that were previously in prison for homicide.
Posted by: Sebastian Melmoth at February 05, 2023 12:23 PM (Qy9+6)
62
Posted by: Sebastian Melmoth at February 05, 2023 12:13 PM (Qy9+6)
Nope. It is the GCA of 1968. It wasn't state law.
Nope. It is the GCA of 1968. It wasn't state law.
Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo at February 05, 2023 12:23 PM (XIJ/X)
63
From literally the first sentence of the abstract:
The relationship between pedophilia and recidivism was examined in a sample of 206 extra-familial child molesters assessed at a university teaching hospital between 1982 and 1992.
The relationship between pedophilia and recidivism was examined in a sample of 206 extra-familial child molesters assessed at a university teaching hospital between 1982 and 1992.
Posted by: Archimedes at February 05, 2023 12:23 PM (eOEVl)
64
Does the law permanently take away your driver's license in the event of you culpably killing someone with your vehicle?
Posted by: Ciampino --- Repeal that gun act at February 05, 2023 12:21 PM
It depends on the State I think.
Posted by: Ciampino --- Repeal that gun act at February 05, 2023 12:21 PM
It depends on the State I think.
Posted by: Mister Scott (Formerly GWS) at February 05, 2023 12:24 PM (uNylN)
65
Posted by: Kindltot at February 05, 2023 12:22 PM (xhaym
I'll ask the question again, Should a child molestor be required to register for life?
I'll ask the question again, Should a child molestor be required to register for life?
Posted by: Sebastian Melmoth at February 05, 2023 12:24 PM (Qy9+6)
66
If returning civil rights to a felon after his completion of sentence is dangerous, he clearly wasn't sentenced for long enough.
Posted by: Kindltot at February 05, 2023 12:22 PM (xhaym)
Agreed.
Posted by: Kindltot at February 05, 2023 12:22 PM (xhaym)
Agreed.
Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo at February 05, 2023 12:24 PM (XIJ/X)
67
But if I put aside the fact that our regime is illegitimate and must be toppled before justice can be served, then yes: full restoration of all rights after the sentence is served is in order. It's not a half measure.
The judiciary doesn't exist to prevent crime. That's prior restraint. It exists to punish crime. Give the convict his rights. If he abuses them again, punish him again, and more severely.
It's not some extremely complicated question.
But if I put aside the fact that our regime is illegitimate and must be toppled before justice can be served, then yes: full restoration of all rights after the sentence is served is in order. It's not a half measure.
The judiciary doesn't exist to prevent crime. That's prior restraint. It exists to punish crime. Give the convict his rights. If he abuses them again, punish him again, and more severely.
It's not some extremely complicated question.
Posted by: Yudhishthira's Dice at February 05, 2023 12:25 PM (oINRc)
68
If a person is barred from a civil right beyond his serving his time of punishment, when he is released from jail and community supervision under parole, it both makes permanently removing civil rights on a pretext normal and expected, and it turns the entire country into a low security prison, which I have to live in as well.
I don't think permanently removing civil rights on a pretext, no matter what the pretext, is moral, legal, constitutional, or will result in any good outcome.
As part of your sentence, you lose voting and gun rights. You can serve the sentence in jail or in society. Which would you prefer?
I don't think permanently removing civil rights on a pretext, no matter what the pretext, is moral, legal, constitutional, or will result in any good outcome.
As part of your sentence, you lose voting and gun rights. You can serve the sentence in jail or in society. Which would you prefer?
Posted by: Archimedes at February 05, 2023 12:25 PM (eOEVl)
69
I don't think permanently removing civil rights on a pretext, no matter what the pretext, is moral, legal, constitutional, or will result in any good outcome."
I used to think that of course Felons should lose their rights for life. But now, having seen how politicized the
"justice" system has become, and how the Left has gone all-in on using that system to persecute political enemies, I now agree with you completely.
I used to think that of course Felons should lose their rights for life. But now, having seen how politicized the
"justice" system has become, and how the Left has gone all-in on using that system to persecute political enemies, I now agree with you completely.
Posted by: Tom Servo at February 05, 2023 12:25 PM (r46W7)
70
The felony prohibitions on gun ownership sound like a good idea. Something that most people would reflexively support. But the devil is in the details.
I'm kind of pragmatic about things and I don't think keeping firearms away from felons would do a lick of good in reducing crime.
Some people are just scared of guns and a gun owned by a criminal us even scarier.
The answer to the gun violence problem along with countless other problems we have right now is the lack of enforcement.
Reforming the justice system with actual justice in mind would pull us back from the brink of what we are now, a lawless society with tons of laws.
But that's not going to happen because all the politicians can do is pass laws.
What to do?
I'm kind of pragmatic about things and I don't think keeping firearms away from felons would do a lick of good in reducing crime.
Some people are just scared of guns and a gun owned by a criminal us even scarier.
The answer to the gun violence problem along with countless other problems we have right now is the lack of enforcement.
Reforming the justice system with actual justice in mind would pull us back from the brink of what we are now, a lawless society with tons of laws.
But that's not going to happen because all the politicians can do is pass laws.
What to do?
Posted by: pawn at February 05, 2023 12:26 PM (kYVzH)
71
Nope. It is the GCA of 1968. It wasn't state law.
Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo at February 05, 2023 12:23 PM (XIJ/X)
The GCA is not Statutory? I think it is. You disagree with the Statutory Law that is on the books. I understand that.
Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo at February 05, 2023 12:23 PM (XIJ/X)
The GCA is not Statutory? I think it is. You disagree with the Statutory Law that is on the books. I understand that.
Posted by: Sebastian Melmoth at February 05, 2023 12:27 PM (Qy9+6)
72
This is problematic. There are many jurisdictions where felons either have their sentences reduces or thrown out by criminal State AGs in the name of equity, equality, racial justice or similar notion.
Posted by: runner at February 05, 2023 12:27 PM (V13WU)
73
Nope. It is the GCA of 1968.
Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo at February 05, 2023 12:23 PM (XIJ/X)
Kennedy legacy.
Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo at February 05, 2023 12:23 PM (XIJ/X)
Kennedy legacy.
Posted by: BignJames at February 05, 2023 12:27 PM (AwYPR)
Posted by: Yudhishthira's Dice at February 05, 2023 12:27 PM (oINRc)
75
58
Posted by: exdem13 at February 05, 2023 12:21 PM (W+kMI)
----
If the felony was committed with a firearm then by all means lose that right. But then we need to do the same for blades, clubs, rocks, etc. If a firearm was not used then that right should stay.
Posted by: exdem13 at February 05, 2023 12:21 PM (W+kMI)
----
If the felony was committed with a firearm then by all means lose that right. But then we need to do the same for blades, clubs, rocks, etc. If a firearm was not used then that right should stay.
Posted by: Ciampino - convict on the crime only at February 05, 2023 12:27 PM (qfLjt)
76
No, when your debt to society is paid, then it's paid. We aren't suppose to have a tiered citizenship scheme.
Posted by: DFCtomm at February 05, 2023 12:28 PM (xge03)
77
No, when your debt to society is paid, then it's paid. We aren't suppose to have a tiered citizenship scheme.
Posted by: DFCtomm at February 05, 2023 12:28 PM (xge03)
Yes.
No, when your debt to society is paid, then it's paid. We aren't suppose to have a tiered citizenship scheme.
Posted by: DFCtomm at February 05, 2023 12:28 PM (xge03)
Yes.
Posted by: Yudhishthira's Dice at February 05, 2023 12:28 PM (oINRc)
78
47 who knows, an armed ex-con might save your life one day
====
It's possible, but I'd say in overall percentages it's an armed ex-con who is more likely to put my life in need of saving first. That's not bias, that's statistics. I'd be in more favor of leniency if the past century or so of crime statistics hadn't suggested that felons are more likely to commit crimes again, and that state and that governments on all levels are increasingly inclined to let them do so.
====
It's possible, but I'd say in overall percentages it's an armed ex-con who is more likely to put my life in need of saving first. That's not bias, that's statistics. I'd be in more favor of leniency if the past century or so of crime statistics hadn't suggested that felons are more likely to commit crimes again, and that state and that governments on all levels are increasingly inclined to let them do so.
Posted by: exdem13 at February 05, 2023 12:29 PM (W+kMI)
79
The left doesn't have discussions like this. You fall in line or else.
Posted by: Mr Aspirin Factory at February 05, 2023 12:29 PM (i0Kzs)
80
65 Posted by: Kindltot at February 05, 2023 12:22 PM (xhaym
I'll ask the question again, Should a child molestor be required to register for life?
Posted by: Sebastian Melmoth at February 05, 2023 12:24 PM (Qy9+6)
On this question, I say absolutely yes, because child molesters have extremely high rates of recidivism. It's still a half measure, since this is one crime that I believe deserves an automatic death penalty for a first offense. But, if we have to put up with having them around, we should at least know where they are.
I'll ask the question again, Should a child molestor be required to register for life?
Posted by: Sebastian Melmoth at February 05, 2023 12:24 PM (Qy9+6)
On this question, I say absolutely yes, because child molesters have extremely high rates of recidivism. It's still a half measure, since this is one crime that I believe deserves an automatic death penalty for a first offense. But, if we have to put up with having them around, we should at least know where they are.
Posted by: Tom Servo at February 05, 2023 12:29 PM (r46W7)
81
"Justice" and "Fairness"....I keep getting confused.
Posted by: BignJames at February 05, 2023 12:29 PM (AwYPR)
82
Posted by: Sebastian Melmoth at February 05, 2023 12:27 PM (Qy9+6)
My point is that people are incarcerated under stste law but their sentences conti m ue under the GCA.
My point is that people are incarcerated under stste law but their sentences conti m ue under the GCA.
Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo at February 05, 2023 12:30 PM (XIJ/X)
83
No, when your debt to society is paid, then it's paid. We aren't suppose to have a tiered citizenship scheme.
=====
^^^THIS^^^
Any other formulation brings us to chopping hands off for theft, or hanging, or branding with letter on the face for 'felon' or 'adulterer' or 'thief'.
=====
^^^THIS^^^
Any other formulation brings us to chopping hands off for theft, or hanging, or branding with letter on the face for 'felon' or 'adulterer' or 'thief'.
Posted by: mustbequantum at February 05, 2023 12:30 PM (MIKMs)
84
59 39: What the hell is "any re-offense" that it is so much higher than what most people think of as an offense?
possession of pornography?
Posted by: PaleRider at February 05, 2023 12:21 PM (3cGpq)
Not even just possession of pron, but sometimes having access to the internet, being too close to a school or park, failing to register within a certain period of time after moving, or taking a job.
There are all kinds of "re-offenses" that get lumped in, when shoddy research is done. It helps nobody to be conflating those other behaviors, while they might not be nice, to lump them in with actual sexual offenses.
possession of pornography?
Posted by: PaleRider at February 05, 2023 12:21 PM (3cGpq)
Not even just possession of pron, but sometimes having access to the internet, being too close to a school or park, failing to register within a certain period of time after moving, or taking a job.
There are all kinds of "re-offenses" that get lumped in, when shoddy research is done. It helps nobody to be conflating those other behaviors, while they might not be nice, to lump them in with actual sexual offenses.
Posted by: BurtTC at February 05, 2023 12:30 PM (QBaJw)
85
YD,
I said I was pragmatic.
Tearing it down would just let the powerful build back what they want.
I said I was pragmatic.
Tearing it down would just let the powerful build back what they want.
Posted by: pawn at February 05, 2023 12:32 PM (kYVzH)
86
who knows, an armed ex-con might save your life one day
==
Nive premise for a Hollywood film, in real life...not so much.
==
Nive premise for a Hollywood film, in real life...not so much.
Posted by: runner at February 05, 2023 12:32 PM (V13WU)
87
The only thing we accomplish by banning felons from legally owning guns is make the democrats hot to make us all felons.
Posted by: sven at February 05, 2023 12:32 PM (Lzpvj)
88
Is everyone in New Jersey an ex felon? 😃
Posted by: Sebastian Melmoth at February 05, 2023 12:32 PM (Qy9+6)
89
I think certain kinds of crime should merit losing the free exercise of some rights, yes. We have to get past the idea that jail is the only kind of punishment, in fact we'd be much better off if the punishments were more creative and appropriate to the crime. If you murder people with a gun, you don't get to have guns any more. If you rape a woman, off with the wedding tackle. Its a matter of consequence and appropriate response.
Posted by: Christopher R Taylor at February 05, 2023 12:32 PM (0hOvj)
90
>>Is there a legitimate government interest in controlling the possession of firearms?
Seeing as the clear wording and intent of the 2nd Amendment would largely preclude that vis-a-vis law abiding citizens, all gun control laws are based on, WEAHELLLL doctrine.
ie, WEAHLLL, nobody should have a machine gun.
WEAHLLL, nobody needs, more than ten rounds.
WEAHLLL, Nobody needs a forward assist.
WEAHLLL, ....
Seeing as the clear wording and intent of the 2nd Amendment would largely preclude that vis-a-vis law abiding citizens, all gun control laws are based on, WEAHELLLL doctrine.
ie, WEAHLLL, nobody should have a machine gun.
WEAHLLL, nobody needs, more than ten rounds.
WEAHLLL, Nobody needs a forward assist.
WEAHLLL, ....
Posted by: Thomas Bender at February 05, 2023 12:33 PM (up/3i)
91
If the felony was committed with a firearm then by all means lose that right. But then we need to do the same for blades, clubs, rocks, etc. If a firearm was not used then that right should stay.
Posted by: Ciampino - convict on the crime only at February 05, 2023 12:27 PM (qfLjt)
++++++++++
If you honestly believe that someone is a threat to society for the rest of their lives, then kill them. Expecting that a criminal will avoid possessing a handgun because the law has forbade the criminal from possessing a handgun is silly.
Posted by: Ciampino - convict on the crime only at February 05, 2023 12:27 PM (qfLjt)
++++++++++
If you honestly believe that someone is a threat to society for the rest of their lives, then kill them. Expecting that a criminal will avoid possessing a handgun because the law has forbade the criminal from possessing a handgun is silly.
Posted by: DFCtomm at February 05, 2023 12:33 PM (xge03)
92
78 47 who knows, an armed ex-con might save your life one day
====
It's possible, but I'd say in overall percentages it's an armed ex-con who is more likely to put my life in need of saving first. That's not bias, that's statistics. I'd be in more favor of leniency if the past century or so of crime statistics hadn't suggested that felons are more likely to commit crimes again, and that state and that governments on all levels are increasingly inclined to let them do so.
Posted by: exdem13 at February 05, 2023 12:29 PM (W+kMI)
----
Your argument assumes the felony was committed with a weapon or that just by having served time, the ex-felon will now use weapons in future malarkey.
====
It's possible, but I'd say in overall percentages it's an armed ex-con who is more likely to put my life in need of saving first. That's not bias, that's statistics. I'd be in more favor of leniency if the past century or so of crime statistics hadn't suggested that felons are more likely to commit crimes again, and that state and that governments on all levels are increasingly inclined to let them do so.
Posted by: exdem13 at February 05, 2023 12:29 PM (W+kMI)
----
Your argument assumes the felony was committed with a weapon or that just by having served time, the ex-felon will now use weapons in future malarkey.
Posted by: Ciampino -- convict on the crime only at February 05, 2023 12:33 PM (qfLjt)
93
I'm a two strikes guy; if you serve your time for the first strike, we're good to go.
If you get caught again for a second strike, you're obviously too stupid to be out in polite society amongst law-abiding citizens.
This is where firearms and the firing squad come in.
If you get caught again for a second strike, you're obviously too stupid to be out in polite society amongst law-abiding citizens.
This is where firearms and the firing squad come in.
Posted by: Dr. Bone at February 05, 2023 12:36 PM (Jg7EG)
94
Gun registration (within 270 days or so) is currently law in Illinois. It will be challenged and hopefully overthrown. ARs can't be sold either. Guy I know from out of state went to a gun show and he said they announced IL residents could not buy the ARs (not just ARs, but I forget "assault" details)
Current owners are grandfathered in so they will "allow" us to keep our guns, for now. Yeah, that is going down the slippery slope pretty quickly.
Current owners are grandfathered in so they will "allow" us to keep our guns, for now. Yeah, that is going down the slippery slope pretty quickly.
Posted by: illiniwek at February 05, 2023 12:36 PM (Cus5s)
95
I'll argue that if the WEF and the deep state/leftists have their way, people will be clamoring to be sent to prison for the shelter and the pitiful food to eat. Prisons will be the only place that will have A/C in the summer and heat during the winter.
So what's a little criminal activity. Own a gun whether it's legal or not. Fuck 'em..
So what's a little criminal activity. Own a gun whether it's legal or not. Fuck 'em..
Posted by: Dr. Pork Chops & Bacons at February 05, 2023 12:36 PM (BdMk6)
96
Im inclined to agree with kindltot @60.
When my dad retired from the navy his first job was at the state penitentiary in Monroe WA. After a couple years there it was not uncommon for the ol man to take lil Diogenes into the slammer to get a haircut. The cons trusted the ol man, and he trusted many of them.
Many of that generation of convicts were one time offenders. Today perhaps not so much. But then, if the sentence had been served, rights should of been restored.
When my dad retired from the navy his first job was at the state penitentiary in Monroe WA. After a couple years there it was not uncommon for the ol man to take lil Diogenes into the slammer to get a haircut. The cons trusted the ol man, and he trusted many of them.
Many of that generation of convicts were one time offenders. Today perhaps not so much. But then, if the sentence had been served, rights should of been restored.
Posted by: Diogenes at February 05, 2023 12:36 PM (anj39)
97
I'll ask the question again, Should a child molestor be required to register for life?
Posted by: Sebastian Melmoth at February 05, 2023 12:24 PM (Qy9+6)
Most "child molestors" are never caught, never brought before a judge, never convicted or sentenced.
Most of them are already walking among us, and nobody's watching them.
Posted by: Sebastian Melmoth at February 05, 2023 12:24 PM (Qy9+6)
Most "child molestors" are never caught, never brought before a judge, never convicted or sentenced.
Most of them are already walking among us, and nobody's watching them.
Posted by: BurtTC at February 05, 2023 12:37 PM (QBaJw)
98
you're obviously too stupid to be out in polite society amongst law-abiding citizens.
Posted by: Dr. Bone at February 05, 2023 12:36 PM (Jg7EG)
++++++++
At this point isn't the government criminally liable for any crime this person commits? Their sure enough that this person is such a problem that they've began to curtail his rights, so they know he's a risk.
Posted by: Dr. Bone at February 05, 2023 12:36 PM (Jg7EG)
++++++++
At this point isn't the government criminally liable for any crime this person commits? Their sure enough that this person is such a problem that they've began to curtail his rights, so they know he's a risk.
Posted by: DFCtomm at February 05, 2023 12:38 PM (xge03)
99
Most of them are already walking among us, and nobody's watching them.
Posted by: BurtTC at February 05, 2023 12:37 PM (QBaJw)
Or campaigning for trans rights.
Posted by: BurtTC at February 05, 2023 12:37 PM (QBaJw)
Or campaigning for trans rights.
Posted by: Aetius451AD, from the 50s at February 05, 2023 12:39 PM (CsVWE)
100
80 65
On this question, I say absolutely yes, because child molesters have extremely high rates of recidivism. It's still a half measure, since this is one crime that I believe deserves an automatic death penalty for a first offense. But, if we have to put up with having them around, we should at least know where they are.
Posted by: Tom Servo at February 05, 2023 12:29 PM (r46W7)
----
Careful there. What if your ex accuses you of molesting your children and she manufactures evidence? You want to be executed?
On this question, I say absolutely yes, because child molesters have extremely high rates of recidivism. It's still a half measure, since this is one crime that I believe deserves an automatic death penalty for a first offense. But, if we have to put up with having them around, we should at least know where they are.
Posted by: Tom Servo at February 05, 2023 12:29 PM (r46W7)
----
Careful there. What if your ex accuses you of molesting your children and she manufactures evidence? You want to be executed?
Posted by: Ciampino --- convict on the crime only at February 05, 2023 12:39 PM (qfLjt)
101
46 I'm assuming that those who believe banning possession of a gun by a felon also disagree with taking away the right to vote.
-------
Not necessarily, since casting a ballot and contemplating knocking over a convenience store are two different actions. That is something that can be legitimately debated and put before a state's voters for consideration. I'm personally for withholding the vote because a felony conviction is not a good recommendation for an ex-felon's capability to support legislative and executive actions which provide safety for society on all levels.
-------
Not necessarily, since casting a ballot and contemplating knocking over a convenience store are two different actions. That is something that can be legitimately debated and put before a state's voters for consideration. I'm personally for withholding the vote because a felony conviction is not a good recommendation for an ex-felon's capability to support legislative and executive actions which provide safety for society on all levels.
Posted by: exdem13 at February 05, 2023 12:39 PM (W+kMI)
102
Most of them are already walking among us, and nobody's watching them.
Posted by: BurtTC at February 05, 2023 12:37 PM (QBaJw)
Or campaigning for trans rights.
Posted by: Aetius451AD, from the 50s at February 05, 2023 12:39 PM (CsVWE)
Oh yes, there is that. They're being watched... just not the way a decent society might prefer.
Posted by: BurtTC at February 05, 2023 12:37 PM (QBaJw)
Or campaigning for trans rights.
Posted by: Aetius451AD, from the 50s at February 05, 2023 12:39 PM (CsVWE)
Oh yes, there is that. They're being watched... just not the way a decent society might prefer.
Posted by: BurtTC at February 05, 2023 12:40 PM (QBaJw)
103
As part of your sentence, you lose voting and gun rights. You can serve the sentence in jail or in society. Which would you prefer?
Posted by: Archimedes at February 05, 2023 12:25 PM (eOEVl)
You did see where I said, "completed jail term and parole", right?
If you think a life sentence is correct for, say, stealing a car, then say so.
Posted by: Archimedes at February 05, 2023 12:25 PM (eOEVl)
You did see where I said, "completed jail term and parole", right?
If you think a life sentence is correct for, say, stealing a car, then say so.
Posted by: Kindltot at February 05, 2023 12:41 PM (xhaym)
104
I have argued against the continuation of punishment and loss of an individual right for decades now, but I am usually well in the minority on this. I find it akin to taking away the right of free speech, but most don't.
Posted by: Guy Mohawk at February 05, 2023 12:41 PM (8GBH4)
105
What if your neighbor is a Chinese spy balloon?
Posted by: Archer at February 05, 2023 12:42 PM (rskKm)
106
I'll ask the question again, Should a child molestor be required to register for life?
Posted by: Sebastian Melmoth at February 05, 2023 12:24 PM (Qy9+6)
Show me the value, and the reason.
In all things I have to consider what Cesare Beccaria argued: Why are you giving these people so much power over everyone?
Posted by: Sebastian Melmoth at February 05, 2023 12:24 PM (Qy9+6)
Show me the value, and the reason.
In all things I have to consider what Cesare Beccaria argued: Why are you giving these people so much power over everyone?
Posted by: Kindltot at February 05, 2023 12:43 PM (xhaym)
107
Careful there. What if your ex accuses you of molesting your children and she manufactures evidence? You want to be executed?
Posted by: Ciampino --- convict on the crime only at February 05, 2023 12:39 PM (qfLjt)
I think that is the "new" evidence the fbi and their ilk are planting on folks they want to "get" nowadays.
Plant some of that pederast stuff on someone's computer and then charge them.
Whether they get convicted or not, the damage is done.
Posted by: Ciampino --- convict on the crime only at February 05, 2023 12:39 PM (qfLjt)
I think that is the "new" evidence the fbi and their ilk are planting on folks they want to "get" nowadays.
Plant some of that pederast stuff on someone's computer and then charge them.
Whether they get convicted or not, the damage is done.
Posted by: Hairyback Guy at February 05, 2023 12:44 PM (R/m4+)
108
Careful there. What if your ex accuses you of molesting your children and she manufactures evidence? You want to be executed?
Posted by: Ciampino --- convict on the crime only at February 05, 2023 12:39 PM (qfLjt)
Which happens. A lot.
My now ex accused her prior ex of molesting their daughter. There was an investigation, and the only reason he's not in prison now is because the child wasn't credible enough.
Do I believe he did it? At the time she accused him I did. Now I don't. She's a consummate liar. It's a minor miracle I haven't been accused of anything, but I think that's mainly because she doesn't hate me as much as she hates the father of her children.
Posted by: Ciampino --- convict on the crime only at February 05, 2023 12:39 PM (qfLjt)
Which happens. A lot.
My now ex accused her prior ex of molesting their daughter. There was an investigation, and the only reason he's not in prison now is because the child wasn't credible enough.
Do I believe he did it? At the time she accused him I did. Now I don't. She's a consummate liar. It's a minor miracle I haven't been accused of anything, but I think that's mainly because she doesn't hate me as much as she hates the father of her children.
Posted by: BurtTC at February 05, 2023 12:45 PM (QBaJw)
109
105 What if your neighbor is a Chinese spy balloon?
Posted by: Archer at February 05, 2023 12:42 PM (rskKm)
----
It lives in a bar room = pub
right?
Posted by: Archer at February 05, 2023 12:42 PM (rskKm)
----
It lives in a bar room = pub
right?
Posted by: Ciampino - Chinese balloon will not stay up, needs Viagra at February 05, 2023 12:45 PM (qfLjt)
110
Is everyone in New Jersey an ex felon? 😃
Posted by: Sebastian Melmoth at February 05, 2023 12:32 PM (Qy9+6)
Uncharged felons.
My guess is that the majority of gun owners in NJ could be convicted of felonies without much trouble. The law here is absolutely insane.
Posted by: Sebastian Melmoth at February 05, 2023 12:32 PM (Qy9+6)
Uncharged felons.
My guess is that the majority of gun owners in NJ could be convicted of felonies without much trouble. The law here is absolutely insane.
Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo at February 05, 2023 12:45 PM (XIJ/X)
111
"So what's a little criminal activity. Own a gun whether it's legal or not. Fuck 'em.."
My guess is FBI has lists of who bought what guns in the last 20 years or so. So if I don't register (if it is not overturned) ... they KNOW. They probably won't come raid/arrest lil ole me, but it is a sort of perjury trap. I could bury it somewhere for harder times I guess.
My guess is FBI has lists of who bought what guns in the last 20 years or so. So if I don't register (if it is not overturned) ... they KNOW. They probably won't come raid/arrest lil ole me, but it is a sort of perjury trap. I could bury it somewhere for harder times I guess.
Posted by: illiniwek at February 05, 2023 12:46 PM (Cus5s)
112
I worked with a guy who was in the Jamaican gang Shower Posse. He did federal time. NYC gave him a gun permit.
Posted by: Jamaica NYC at February 05, 2023 12:46 PM (Eeb9P)
113
on a happier note, Kim Potter gets outta jail in April
Posted by: sofasaver at February 05, 2023 12:46 PM (us2H3)
114
I have argued against the continuation of punishment and loss of an individual right for decades now, but I am usually well in the minority on this. I find it akin to taking away the right of free speech, but most don't.
Posted by: Guy Mohawk at February 05, 2023 12:41 PM (8GBH4)
++++++
My opinion is that they should do either more or less. When a person has paid his debt then he's just a citizen and deserves all the rights of the citizen. If the government feels he will be a threat to the general public for the rest of his life, and has begun to curtail his rights in an attempt to protect the public, then why is he walking around free?
Posted by: Guy Mohawk at February 05, 2023 12:41 PM (8GBH4)
++++++
My opinion is that they should do either more or less. When a person has paid his debt then he's just a citizen and deserves all the rights of the citizen. If the government feels he will be a threat to the general public for the rest of his life, and has begun to curtail his rights in an attempt to protect the public, then why is he walking around free?
Posted by: DFCtomm at February 05, 2023 12:47 PM (xge03)
115
I did a little search and ... (from 2005...so who know what numbers are now) " A Justice Department study last year found that of more than 400,000 felons released in 30 states in 2005, 3 in 4 had been re-arrested within five years, and 27% of those arrests were in connection with a violent crime." It is JD study, so grain of salt.
Posted by: runner at February 05, 2023 12:47 PM (V13WU)
116
If there's "no registration". why do you have to fill out a 4473?
Posted by: BignJames at February 05, 2023 12:48 PM (AwYPR)
117
I think that is the "new" evidence the fbi and their ilk are planting on folks they want to "get" nowadays.
Plant some of that pederast stuff on someone's computer and then charge them.
Whether they get convicted or not, the damage is done.
Posted by: Hairyback Guy at February 05, 2023 12:44 PM (R/m4+)
We've also been oversold on the whole DNA evidence b.s. That, hair analysis, carpet fibers, blood splatter, etc.
The so-called science behind much of that stuff his bullshot, mainly because we've been sold on the idea that cops and especially the Eff Bee Eye are the good guys.
Plant some of that pederast stuff on someone's computer and then charge them.
Whether they get convicted or not, the damage is done.
Posted by: Hairyback Guy at February 05, 2023 12:44 PM (R/m4+)
We've also been oversold on the whole DNA evidence b.s. That, hair analysis, carpet fibers, blood splatter, etc.
The so-called science behind much of that stuff his bullshot, mainly because we've been sold on the idea that cops and especially the Eff Bee Eye are the good guys.
Posted by: BurtTC at February 05, 2023 12:48 PM (QBaJw)
118
If you honestly believe that someone is a threat to society for the rest of their lives, then kill them. Expecting that a criminal will avoid possessing a handgun because the law has forbade the criminal from possessing a handgun is silly.
Posted by: DFCtomm at February 05, 2023 12:33 PM (xge03)
To make it worse, in various states, it is illegal to sell a weapon to a felon, even if you didn't know he was a felon.
You are both coerced into enforcing a law for free, no matter what your feelings are, and penalized for not enforcing that law, even if you didn't know there was a problem.
On the pretext that by living in the state "you give tacit support to the law"
Posted by: DFCtomm at February 05, 2023 12:33 PM (xge03)
To make it worse, in various states, it is illegal to sell a weapon to a felon, even if you didn't know he was a felon.
You are both coerced into enforcing a law for free, no matter what your feelings are, and penalized for not enforcing that law, even if you didn't know there was a problem.
On the pretext that by living in the state "you give tacit support to the law"
Posted by: Kindltot at February 05, 2023 12:48 PM (xhaym)
119
113 on a happier note, Kim Potter gets outta jail in April
Posted by: sofasaver at February 05, 2023 12:46 PM (us2H3)
----
Who is Kim Potter and what's the beef?
Posted by: sofasaver at February 05, 2023 12:46 PM (us2H3)
----
Who is Kim Potter and what's the beef?
Posted by: Ciampino -- Chinese balloon will not stay up, needs Viagra at February 05, 2023 12:48 PM (qfLjt)
120
As mentioned in the post, they take away the 2nd amendment for life for non-violent felonies AND for non-felonies. It is not actually about keeping guns from violent people, its about taking guns from everybody and it is in the obviousness of this govt tyranny that I find it appalling.
Posted by: Guy Mohawk at February 05, 2023 12:49 PM (8GBH4)
121
My point is that the bureaucracy will do what it sees as being in its interest regardless of any law
Posted by: Jamaica NYC at February 05, 2023 12:49 PM (Eeb9P)
122
The "no guns or voting for felons" stuff probably made more sense back when felonies were a small list of Really Bad Things that significantly affected someone else. But since then it's been expanded to a lot of crap that really shouldn't be that big of a deal.
Posted by: CppThis at February 05, 2023 12:49 PM (PZvjL)
123
Crime is a consequence of a free society. All of this runaway judicial overreach is the consequence of a society that prefers safety to freedom.
But that's not even wholly accurate. It's really a comfort thing, more than safety. People don't want to protect themselves from criminals, because it's difficult, and they'd rather have someone else do it.
So you end up with a society where the broad mass of population allows the legislature and judiciary to repeatedly arrogate more and more power at the expense of its own liberty, in return for cheap trinkets like silly "but muh felonz can't have gunz" laws.
So the recidivist offender, who clearly doesn't care about the law, goes out and gets one, anyway. And sets out to victimize people with it again, anyway. You've gained jack shit, and given up a lot for the privilege of getting jack shit for it. Whereas, in a properly functioning country, the guy probably wouldn't have dared to commit a felony crime in the first place, for fear of getting his wig split by John Q Public.
Crime is a consequence of a free society. All of this runaway judicial overreach is the consequence of a society that prefers safety to freedom.
But that's not even wholly accurate. It's really a comfort thing, more than safety. People don't want to protect themselves from criminals, because it's difficult, and they'd rather have someone else do it.
So you end up with a society where the broad mass of population allows the legislature and judiciary to repeatedly arrogate more and more power at the expense of its own liberty, in return for cheap trinkets like silly "but muh felonz can't have gunz" laws.
So the recidivist offender, who clearly doesn't care about the law, goes out and gets one, anyway. And sets out to victimize people with it again, anyway. You've gained jack shit, and given up a lot for the privilege of getting jack shit for it. Whereas, in a properly functioning country, the guy probably wouldn't have dared to commit a felony crime in the first place, for fear of getting his wig split by John Q Public.
Posted by: Yudhishthira's Dice at February 05, 2023 12:50 PM (oINRc)
124
67 The judiciary doesn't exist to prevent crime. That's prior restraint. It exists to punish crime. Give the convict his rights. If he abuses them again, punish him again, and more severely.
======
A number of felons are truly punished more severely when they attempt to commit another crime again and are shot by law enforcement officers or by an armed private citizen. If we as a free society want to have felons have their rights restored, we need to re-learn the principle that decisions have consequences for good or ill, and that ill decisions can have the worst consequences. Without that re-learning, well, just read a current news story about a big city.
======
A number of felons are truly punished more severely when they attempt to commit another crime again and are shot by law enforcement officers or by an armed private citizen. If we as a free society want to have felons have their rights restored, we need to re-learn the principle that decisions have consequences for good or ill, and that ill decisions can have the worst consequences. Without that re-learning, well, just read a current news story about a big city.
Posted by: exdem13 at February 05, 2023 12:50 PM (W+kMI)
125
tweaking of the laws over decades now allows felons to petition their respective sate to restore their right to own a firearm
Posted by: runner at February 05, 2023 12:50 PM (V13WU)
126
I am a retired felon (3 in fact - 2 in 88' 1 in 90'). During time off during Covid I worked with a court appointed lawyer and had my entire record expunged. When my family and I finally get out of California to Arizona, I will contact a lawyer that specializes in 2nd amendment issues to see if I can legally own. I doubt it, but I will try. My oldest has been 6-years Marines and 6-years ARMY. My youngest is NAVY [pre-BUDS]. So guns aren't uncommon in our lives. But I do wish to own someday. THAT may be a pipe dream however.
Posted by: Sean G at February 05, 2023 12:50 PM (w0gde)
127
"When your debt to society is paid, then it's paid."
OK. Then let's define our terms.
Sitting in jail or prison for a few years three hots and a cot, that costs money.
One asshat in a stolen car (for example) can do hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of damage to homes, public utilities, businesses, etc. Have you ever tried to buy a Telephone pole? Any idea what that costs?
Stealing a car used to get 1 to 10 in the pen at the Q, if Dragnet can be believed.
None of these people have "paid their debt to society" when they still owe restitution, and don't give me this "that's what Insurance is for".
Make people pay, and they will suddenly find something else to do.
OK. Then let's define our terms.
Sitting in jail or prison for a few years three hots and a cot, that costs money.
One asshat in a stolen car (for example) can do hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of damage to homes, public utilities, businesses, etc. Have you ever tried to buy a Telephone pole? Any idea what that costs?
Stealing a car used to get 1 to 10 in the pen at the Q, if Dragnet can be believed.
None of these people have "paid their debt to society" when they still owe restitution, and don't give me this "that's what Insurance is for".
Make people pay, and they will suddenly find something else to do.
Posted by: Common Tater at February 05, 2023 12:51 PM (9f2LQ)
128
The criminal justice system as a whole isn't setup right.
Our answer to everything from murder to vandalism is...put you in a cage with other felons on the taxpayers dime.
The most serious crimes - murder, forcible rape, etc should be punishable by death.
The minor crimes should be punished, but by something less costly and more effective. As an example I bet that kid that got a canning in Singapore never vandalized anything else again
And a big part of the answer to this is getting rid of a bunch of laws so there are fewer crimes to begin with. Selling "loosies" is against the law? WTF?!?
Our answer to everything from murder to vandalism is...put you in a cage with other felons on the taxpayers dime.
The most serious crimes - murder, forcible rape, etc should be punishable by death.
The minor crimes should be punished, but by something less costly and more effective. As an example I bet that kid that got a canning in Singapore never vandalized anything else again
And a big part of the answer to this is getting rid of a bunch of laws so there are fewer crimes to begin with. Selling "loosies" is against the law? WTF?!?
Posted by: 18-1 at February 05, 2023 12:51 PM (lc5cP)
129
My guess is FBI has lists of who bought what guns in the last 20 years or so. So if I don't register (if it is not overturned) ... they KNOW. They probably won't come raid/arrest lil ole me, but it is a sort of perjury trap. I could bury it somewhere for harder times I guess.
Posted by: illiniwek at February 05, 2023 12:46 PM
Connecticut has known for 15 years all of the people who failed to register their *assault weapons* with the State after the Sandy Hook school shooting and has not arrested a single person for failing to register their gun since the new laws went into effect.
They know who has them and they know where they live because the State has an illegal gun record data base that they created in 1992 that records every single gun purchase in the State, yet they haven't arrested a single person for failure to comply with the law.
Posted by: illiniwek at February 05, 2023 12:46 PM
Connecticut has known for 15 years all of the people who failed to register their *assault weapons* with the State after the Sandy Hook school shooting and has not arrested a single person for failing to register their gun since the new laws went into effect.
They know who has them and they know where they live because the State has an illegal gun record data base that they created in 1992 that records every single gun purchase in the State, yet they haven't arrested a single person for failure to comply with the law.
Posted by: Mister Scott (Formerly GWS) at February 05, 2023 12:51 PM (uNylN)
130
Nice piece (SWIDT), CBD
*******
I've said many times that one of the biggest flaws of our legal and mental health systems is the unrealistic notion of being able to accurately predict individual human behavior in the very short term, much less long term. Courts are often tasked with deciding whether to release someone from detention and the decision hinges on whether they "pose a risk to themselves or others." And judges by and large rely on the assessment of mental health professionals. Published studies have shown that mental health risk assessments are little better than a coin flip. I once heard a judge quoted to the effect that "psychiatrists aren't very good at predicting whether a given individual upon release from jail will commit a violent act within the next 72 hours, but they are the best we have." Take that uncertainty and extend it into the thought crime realm of the red flag laws and you can begin to see the insurmountable problem.
*******
I've said many times that one of the biggest flaws of our legal and mental health systems is the unrealistic notion of being able to accurately predict individual human behavior in the very short term, much less long term. Courts are often tasked with deciding whether to release someone from detention and the decision hinges on whether they "pose a risk to themselves or others." And judges by and large rely on the assessment of mental health professionals. Published studies have shown that mental health risk assessments are little better than a coin flip. I once heard a judge quoted to the effect that "psychiatrists aren't very good at predicting whether a given individual upon release from jail will commit a violent act within the next 72 hours, but they are the best we have." Take that uncertainty and extend it into the thought crime realm of the red flag laws and you can begin to see the insurmountable problem.
Posted by: Muldoon at February 05, 2023 12:51 PM (ykeLU)
131
>>If returning civil rights to a felon after his completion of sentence is dangerous, he clearly wasn't sentenced for long enough.
To me that is the heart of the problem. I don't have a problem with restoring rights but I do think in many cases our justice system has become too lenient for violent crimes particularly in blue cities.
Very little deterrence which is getting worse in many areas.
To me that is the heart of the problem. I don't have a problem with restoring rights but I do think in many cases our justice system has become too lenient for violent crimes particularly in blue cities.
Very little deterrence which is getting worse in many areas.
Posted by: JackStraw at February 05, 2023 12:55 PM (ZLI7S)
Posted by: Thomas Bender at February 05, 2023 12:55 PM (up/3i)
133
A young man locally here killed and dismembered a homeless man 100 yards from the police station. Over a couple of years prior to the killing he had been seen by various mental health professionals for the usual litany of adolescent mental health "concerns" (depression, ADHD, etc.). Over the course of nearly 50 sessions nobody ever predicted that he would kill and behead a total stranger to "see what it felt like". And I don't think any red flag laws would have taken away his machete, even if he had been flagged.
Another case in point is the recent LgBT nightclub shooter in Colorado Springs.
Another case in point is the recent LgBT nightclub shooter in Colorado Springs.
Posted by: Muldoon at February 05, 2023 12:55 PM (ykeLU)
134
Who is Kim Potter and what's the beef?
Posted by: Ciampino -- Chinese balloon will not stay up, needs Viagra at February 05, 2023 12:48 PM (qfLjt)
Harry Potter's less famous sister.
Has a scar of a dust devil on her fanny. Watch out for that one.
Posted by: Ciampino -- Chinese balloon will not stay up, needs Viagra at February 05, 2023 12:48 PM (qfLjt)
Harry Potter's less famous sister.
Has a scar of a dust devil on her fanny. Watch out for that one.
Posted by: BurtTC at February 05, 2023 12:55 PM (QBaJw)
135
If you stab someone to death and are released from your prison sentence, you can lawfully possess a knife but not a gub?
Posted by: I Mean at February 05, 2023 12:56 PM (G7bj9)
136
Make people pay, and they will suddenly find something else to do.
Posted by: Common Tater at February 05, 2023 12:51 PM (9f2LQ)
++++++
How is stripping people of their rights restitution? Money is restitution.
Posted by: Common Tater at February 05, 2023 12:51 PM (9f2LQ)
++++++
How is stripping people of their rights restitution? Money is restitution.
Posted by: DFCtomm at February 05, 2023 12:56 PM (xge03)
137
Compounding this criminal firearms is the Marxists are cutting loose criminals often with little incarnation if any
Posted by: Skip at February 05, 2023 12:56 PM (xhxe8)
138
Another way to get around the gun confiscation trend is change your political party affiliation to democrat. Start checking "Other" on questions regarding race.
Posted by: Dr. Pork Chops & Bacons at February 05, 2023 12:57 PM (BdMk6)
139
If you serve time for vehicular homicide, after your release it is not a felony to drive a vehicle.
Posted by: I Mean at February 05, 2023 12:57 PM (G7bj9)
140
The thing about "mental health" is that it's neither about the mental or the health.
It's about making money. However that's done. Whether it's through struggle sessions or pharmaceuticals... it's about making money off the ill.
It's about making money. However that's done. Whether it's through struggle sessions or pharmaceuticals... it's about making money off the ill.
Posted by: Martini Farmer at February 05, 2023 12:58 PM (Q4IgG)
141
Sorry just read comment number 53.
Posted by: I Mean at February 05, 2023 12:58 PM (G7bj9)
142
The "no guns or voting for felons" stuff probably made more sense back when felonies were a small list of Really Bad Things that significantly affected someone else. But since then it's been expanded to a lot of crap that really shouldn't be that big of a deal.
Posted by: CppThis at February 05, 2023 12:49 PM (PZvjL)
I think it is an admission that the legislators involved considered these penalties so onerous that fewer people would commit felonies and suffer from them, the way that Georgian England had such vicious punishments like hanging for poaching rabbits to try to prevent crimes in the absence of any method to prevent them. (hang some and the other peasants will mind their manners)
The legislators considered the rights to vote and the ability to legally own firearms to be such a fundamental element of civil society that their loss would prevent illegal behavior.
Posted by: CppThis at February 05, 2023 12:49 PM (PZvjL)
I think it is an admission that the legislators involved considered these penalties so onerous that fewer people would commit felonies and suffer from them, the way that Georgian England had such vicious punishments like hanging for poaching rabbits to try to prevent crimes in the absence of any method to prevent them. (hang some and the other peasants will mind their manners)
The legislators considered the rights to vote and the ability to legally own firearms to be such a fundamental element of civil society that their loss would prevent illegal behavior.
Posted by: Kindltot at February 05, 2023 12:58 PM (xhaym)
143
129
Connecticut has known for 15 years all of the people who failed to register their *assault weapons*
They know who has them and they know where they live because the State has an illegal gun record data base that they created in 1992 that records every single gun purchase in the State, yet they haven't arrested a single person for failure to comply with the law.
Posted by: Mister Scott (Formerly GWS) at February 05, 2023 12:51 PM (uNylN)
----
See if they did di something the in court they may be forced to divulge they have an illegal registry and have their case thrown out .... maybe not these 'judge shopping' days.
Connecticut has known for 15 years all of the people who failed to register their *assault weapons*
They know who has them and they know where they live because the State has an illegal gun record data base that they created in 1992 that records every single gun purchase in the State, yet they haven't arrested a single person for failure to comply with the law.
Posted by: Mister Scott (Formerly GWS) at February 05, 2023 12:51 PM (uNylN)
----
See if they did di something the in court they may be forced to divulge they have an illegal registry and have their case thrown out .... maybe not these 'judge shopping' days.
Posted by: Ciampino --- Chinese balloon will not stay up, needs Viagra at February 05, 2023 12:58 PM (qfLjt)
144
If you stab someone to death and are released from your prison sentence, you can lawfully possess a knife but not a gub?
Posted by: I Mean at February 05, 2023 12:56 PM (G7bj9)
Bread/butter knife.
Posted by: I Mean at February 05, 2023 12:56 PM (G7bj9)
Bread/butter knife.
Posted by: BignJames at February 05, 2023 12:59 PM (AwYPR)
145
thinking that barring felons from legally buying and possessing firearms is going to change the trajectory of our society is quaint at best
Posted by: sofasaver at February 05, 2023 12:59 PM (us2H3)
146
92 78 47 who knows, an armed ex-con might save your life one day
====
It's possible, but I'd say in overall percentages it's an armed ex-con who is more likely to put my life in need of saving first. That's not bias, that's statistics. I'd be in more favor of leniency if the past century or so of crime statistics hadn't suggested that felons are more likely to commit crimes again, and that state and that governments on all levels are increasingly inclined to let them do so.
Posted by: exdem13 at February 05, 2023 12:29 PM (W+kMI)
----
Your argument assumes the felony was committed with a weapon or that just by having served time, the ex-felon will now use weapons in future malarkey.
======
Most felonies are committed with a weapon. Criminals carry weapons because the weapons are used to intimidate and overpower victims, sometimes to the death of the victim. Firearms are the easiest means to do so; as long as I have a legally owned pistol I have the ready counter to a robber armed with a knife or club, as opposed to a pistol he has no right to have. An arsonist's firebomb is also a weapon, and so is the penis of a rapist.
====
It's possible, but I'd say in overall percentages it's an armed ex-con who is more likely to put my life in need of saving first. That's not bias, that's statistics. I'd be in more favor of leniency if the past century or so of crime statistics hadn't suggested that felons are more likely to commit crimes again, and that state and that governments on all levels are increasingly inclined to let them do so.
Posted by: exdem13 at February 05, 2023 12:29 PM (W+kMI)
----
Your argument assumes the felony was committed with a weapon or that just by having served time, the ex-felon will now use weapons in future malarkey.
======
Most felonies are committed with a weapon. Criminals carry weapons because the weapons are used to intimidate and overpower victims, sometimes to the death of the victim. Firearms are the easiest means to do so; as long as I have a legally owned pistol I have the ready counter to a robber armed with a knife or club, as opposed to a pistol he has no right to have. An arsonist's firebomb is also a weapon, and so is the penis of a rapist.
Posted by: exdem13 at February 05, 2023 01:00 PM (W+kMI)
147
No the only sex offenders that should be registered are reoffenders.
I've told it before but we knew a guy that was convicted of a misdemeanor sex offense. He was 19 and touched a fully clothed 17 year old girl on the breast. He did 3 months community service. My husband got the paperwork on the conviction, so this is not hearsay. He never had another sex related offense, yet they required him to register for the rest of his life. And they would haul him into jail if he didn't. My husband talked to the prosecutor. She said she wouldn't have prosecuted the case, if she'd known. Of course, the way to clear it required paying a lawyer money. We were able to convince the local prosecutor that he was guilty of just a misdemeanor.
I've told it before but we knew a guy that was convicted of a misdemeanor sex offense. He was 19 and touched a fully clothed 17 year old girl on the breast. He did 3 months community service. My husband got the paperwork on the conviction, so this is not hearsay. He never had another sex related offense, yet they required him to register for the rest of his life. And they would haul him into jail if he didn't. My husband talked to the prosecutor. She said she wouldn't have prosecuted the case, if she'd known. Of course, the way to clear it required paying a lawyer money. We were able to convince the local prosecutor that he was guilty of just a misdemeanor.
Posted by: Notsothoreau at February 05, 2023 01:00 PM (4IUUf)
148
Crime is a consequence of a free society. All of this runaway judicial overreach is the consequence of a society that prefers safety to freedom.
But that's not even wholly accurate. It's really a comfort thing, more than safety. People don't want to protect themselves from criminals, because it's difficult, and they'd rather have someone else do it.
...
Posted by: Yudhishthira's Dice at February 05, 2023 12:50 PM (oINRc)
I don't have the time or the energy to try to figure out why, but anyone can see that society, not just here in this country, but the world over, has more crime now than ever before.
Clearly we're doing something wrong. And it doesn't seem like more prison and more cops and more restrictive laws are doing a damn thing to improve anything.
But that's not even wholly accurate. It's really a comfort thing, more than safety. People don't want to protect themselves from criminals, because it's difficult, and they'd rather have someone else do it.
...
Posted by: Yudhishthira's Dice at February 05, 2023 12:50 PM (oINRc)
I don't have the time or the energy to try to figure out why, but anyone can see that society, not just here in this country, but the world over, has more crime now than ever before.
Clearly we're doing something wrong. And it doesn't seem like more prison and more cops and more restrictive laws are doing a damn thing to improve anything.
Posted by: BurtTC at February 05, 2023 01:00 PM (QBaJw)
149
What about a non-violent felony? What if someone lies on their tax form for example?
Posted by: I Mean at February 05, 2023 01:02 PM (G7bj9)
150
Bread/butter knife.
Posted by: BignJames at February 05, 2023 12:59 PM (AwYPR)
LOL, my bread knife is a big-ass, razor sharp, high-alloy German blade. You could probably saw through a cow femur with that thing, pretty quickly.
Bread/butter knife.
Posted by: BignJames at February 05, 2023 12:59 PM (AwYPR)
LOL, my bread knife is a big-ass, razor sharp, high-alloy German blade. You could probably saw through a cow femur with that thing, pretty quickly.
Posted by: Yudhishthira's Dice at February 05, 2023 01:02 PM (oINRc)
Posted by: Muldoon at February 05, 2023 01:03 PM (ykeLU)
152
An arsonist's firebomb is also a weapon, and so is the penis of a rapist.
Posted by: exdem13 at February 05, 2023 01:00 PM (W+kMI)
The Penis is evil! The Penis shoots Seeds, and makes new Life to poison the Earth with a plague of men, as once it was. But the Gun shoots Death and purifies the Earth of the filth of Brutals. Go forth, and kill! Zardoz has spoken.
Posted by: exdem13 at February 05, 2023 01:00 PM (W+kMI)
The Penis is evil! The Penis shoots Seeds, and makes new Life to poison the Earth with a plague of men, as once it was. But the Gun shoots Death and purifies the Earth of the filth of Brutals. Go forth, and kill! Zardoz has spoken.
Posted by: Zardoz at February 05, 2023 01:03 PM (R/m4+)
153
>>Clearly we're doing something wrong. And it doesn't seem like more prison and more cops and more restrictive laws are doing a damn thing to improve anything.
Look where crime is spiking, more cops and more restrictive laws aren't happening there. Just the opposite.
Look where crime is spiking, more cops and more restrictive laws aren't happening there. Just the opposite.
Posted by: JackStraw at February 05, 2023 01:03 PM (ZLI7S)
154
I've told it before but we knew a guy that was convicted of a misdemeanor sex offense. He was 19 and touched a fully clothed 17 year old girl on the breast. He did 3 months community service. My husband got the paperwork on the conviction, so this is not hearsay. He never had another sex related offense, yet they required him to register for the rest of his life. And they would haul him into jail if he didn't. My husband talked to the prosecutor. She said she wouldn't have prosecuted the case, if she'd known. Of course, the way to clear it required paying a lawyer money. We were able to convince the local prosecutor that he was guilty of just a misdemeanor.
Posted by: Notsothoreau at February 05, 2023 01:00 PM (4IUUf)
I've dealt with many of these people. Many.
I won't go into detail, but can say that most of the "sex offenders" I've dealt with are a LOT less likely to reoffend with a sex crime than almost any other group of people you can assemble.
Most of them. Just not all of them. And generally, it's pretty obvious which ones are which.
Posted by: Notsothoreau at February 05, 2023 01:00 PM (4IUUf)
I've dealt with many of these people. Many.
I won't go into detail, but can say that most of the "sex offenders" I've dealt with are a LOT less likely to reoffend with a sex crime than almost any other group of people you can assemble.
Most of them. Just not all of them. And generally, it's pretty obvious which ones are which.
Posted by: BurtTC at February 05, 2023 01:03 PM (QBaJw)
155
I've told it before but we knew a guy that was convicted of a misdemeanor sex offense. He was 19 and touched a fully clothed 17 year old girl on the breast.
Meanwhile the president has groped toddlers on video. And did things to his own daughter
I've told it before but we knew a guy that was convicted of a misdemeanor sex offense. He was 19 and touched a fully clothed 17 year old girl on the breast.
Meanwhile the president has groped toddlers on video. And did things to his own daughter
Posted by: 18-1 at February 05, 2023 01:03 PM (lc5cP)
156
136:
Criminals should never have their privileges restored unless and until they have truly repaid their debts to society.
Three hots and a cot at public expense, that ain't paying shit. In fact, that's why we have all these faggy DAs and judges letting everyone go. They can't afford to lock people up. The Tax Based Golden Goose was killed and eaten long ago.
What I'm saying is make restitution a requirement before "rights" (voting is not a right) are restored. And by restitution that means making your victims whole again.
That may mean insurance companies, individuals, businesses, local governments, you name it.
Garnish their wages. Welfare, lottery winnings, Pension, anything. From whatever source derived.
Criminals should never have their privileges restored unless and until they have truly repaid their debts to society.
Three hots and a cot at public expense, that ain't paying shit. In fact, that's why we have all these faggy DAs and judges letting everyone go. They can't afford to lock people up. The Tax Based Golden Goose was killed and eaten long ago.
What I'm saying is make restitution a requirement before "rights" (voting is not a right) are restored. And by restitution that means making your victims whole again.
That may mean insurance companies, individuals, businesses, local governments, you name it.
Garnish their wages. Welfare, lottery winnings, Pension, anything. From whatever source derived.
Posted by: Common Tater at February 05, 2023 01:03 PM (9f2LQ)
157
146
Most felonies are committed with a weapon. Criminals carry weapons because the weapons are used to intimidate and overpower victims, sometimes to the death of the victim. Firearms are the easiest means to do so; as long as I have a legally owned pistol I have the ready counter to a robber armed with a knife or club, as opposed to a pistol he has no right to have. An arsonist's firebomb is also a weapon, and so is the penis of a rapist.
Posted by: exdem13 at February 05, 2023 01:00 PM (W+kMI)
----
I disagree firstly because most felonies involve drug posession. Secondly a large number of felonies are white collar crimes. Neither involve guns as I M NOT Tlking drug g
Most felonies are committed with a weapon. Criminals carry weapons because the weapons are used to intimidate and overpower victims, sometimes to the death of the victim. Firearms are the easiest means to do so; as long as I have a legally owned pistol I have the ready counter to a robber armed with a knife or club, as opposed to a pistol he has no right to have. An arsonist's firebomb is also a weapon, and so is the penis of a rapist.
Posted by: exdem13 at February 05, 2023 01:00 PM (W+kMI)
----
I disagree firstly because most felonies involve drug posession. Secondly a large number of felonies are white collar crimes. Neither involve guns as I M NOT Tlking drug g
Posted by: Ciampino --- Chinese balloon will not stay up, needs Viagra at February 05, 2023 01:04 PM (qfLjt)
158
If a felon isn't to be trusted with the freedoms and liberties guaranteed by our Constitution, why have they been released from prison?
Posted by: Bitter Clinger at February 05, 2023 01:04 PM (IcTQ4)
159
137 Compounding this criminal firearms is the Marxists are cutting loose criminals often with little incarnation if any
Posted by: Skip at February 05, 2023 12:56 PM (xhxe
This is why I can't really say that I find common ground with the leftists despite them being typically the ones that shine light on the broken-ness of the US criminal justice system. They burn shit down because a guy got dead from selling loosies, but rather than decriminalize selling loosies they just open the jails and let the really hardened gang types out on the streets where they commit more violent crime.
Same deal with them and Iraq--they never stopped on "this isn't our war and/or is being badly run" and went straight to "America is an evil empire and must be destroyed from within by Marxist professors and their SJW acolytes." Maybe it's all just a failure of leadership, because it's been like 40 years since anyone in the West was truly capable of getting stuff done.
Posted by: Skip at February 05, 2023 12:56 PM (xhxe
This is why I can't really say that I find common ground with the leftists despite them being typically the ones that shine light on the broken-ness of the US criminal justice system. They burn shit down because a guy got dead from selling loosies, but rather than decriminalize selling loosies they just open the jails and let the really hardened gang types out on the streets where they commit more violent crime.
Same deal with them and Iraq--they never stopped on "this isn't our war and/or is being badly run" and went straight to "America is an evil empire and must be destroyed from within by Marxist professors and their SJW acolytes." Maybe it's all just a failure of leadership, because it's been like 40 years since anyone in the West was truly capable of getting stuff done.
Posted by: CppThis at February 05, 2023 01:04 PM (PZvjL)
160
LOL, my bread knife is a big-ass, razor sharp, high-alloy German blade. You could probably saw through a cow femur with that thing, pretty quickly.
Posted by: Yudhishthira's Dice at February 05, 2023 01:02 PM (oINRc)
Yeah, I've got one that could take off a finger...easily.
Posted by: Yudhishthira's Dice at February 05, 2023 01:02 PM (oINRc)
Yeah, I've got one that could take off a finger...easily.
Posted by: BignJames at February 05, 2023 01:04 PM (AwYPR)
161
I don't have the time or the energy to try to figure out why, but anyone can see that society, not just here in this country, but the world over, has more crime now than ever before.
Clearly we're doing something wrong. And it doesn't seem like more prison and more cops and more restrictive laws are doing a damn thing to improve anything.
Posted by: BurtTC at February 05, 2023 01:00 PM (QBaJw)
++++++++
I think that you are wrong about that. I believe this is a Western disease, and isn't shared by many countries that aren't Western, Japan being an exception, but crime isn't the problem in Japan. They aren't lawless just childless.
Clearly we're doing something wrong. And it doesn't seem like more prison and more cops and more restrictive laws are doing a damn thing to improve anything.
Posted by: BurtTC at February 05, 2023 01:00 PM (QBaJw)
++++++++
I think that you are wrong about that. I believe this is a Western disease, and isn't shared by many countries that aren't Western, Japan being an exception, but crime isn't the problem in Japan. They aren't lawless just childless.
Posted by: DFCtomm at February 05, 2023 01:04 PM (xge03)
162
To me that is the heart of the problem. I don't have a problem with restoring rights but I do think in many cases our justice system has become too lenient for violent crimes particularly in blue cities.
Very little deterrence which is getting worse in many areas.
Posted by: JackStraw at February 05, 2023 12:55 PM (ZLI7S)
On the other hand I really liked the law that used to exist that "every day you serve without a problem in jail, you get a day off your sentence" Nothing like an incentive to be good. That was fixed, though.
Very little deterrence which is getting worse in many areas.
Posted by: JackStraw at February 05, 2023 12:55 PM (ZLI7S)
On the other hand I really liked the law that used to exist that "every day you serve without a problem in jail, you get a day off your sentence" Nothing like an incentive to be good. That was fixed, though.
Posted by: Kindltot at February 05, 2023 01:04 PM (xhaym)
163
so I guess Leatherface would be stihl banned
Posted by: sofasaver at February 05, 2023 01:05 PM (us2H3)
164
>>>What if your neighbor is a Chinese spy balloon?
>Drooling Joe is a total embarrassment. We've had the technology to handle Xi-Xi since '67.
https://youtu.be/_qixtjMoMUA?t=58
>Drooling Joe is a total embarrassment. We've had the technology to handle Xi-Xi since '67.
https://youtu.be/_qixtjMoMUA?t=58
Posted by: Dr. Bone at February 05, 2023 01:05 PM (Jg7EG)
165
I disagree firstly because most felonies involve drug posession. Secondly a large number of felonies are white collar crimes. Neither involve guns as I'm not talking drug gangs here.
Posted by: Ciampino - simply put at February 05, 2023 01:05 PM (qfLjt)
166
The "no guns or voting for felons" stuff probably made more sense back when felonies were a small list of Really Bad Things that significantly affected someone else. But since then it's been expanded to a lot of crap that really shouldn't be that big of a deal.
Posted by: CppThis at February 05, 2023 12:49 PM (PZvjL)
This is a central problem in American law and jurisprudence, as well. The scope of the law in general, and the number of behaviors that it deems felonies specifically, have wildly outgrown their proper purpose.
The "no guns or voting for felons" stuff probably made more sense back when felonies were a small list of Really Bad Things that significantly affected someone else. But since then it's been expanded to a lot of crap that really shouldn't be that big of a deal.
Posted by: CppThis at February 05, 2023 12:49 PM (PZvjL)
This is a central problem in American law and jurisprudence, as well. The scope of the law in general, and the number of behaviors that it deems felonies specifically, have wildly outgrown their proper purpose.
Posted by: Yudhishthira's Dice at February 05, 2023 01:05 PM (oINRc)
167
What about a non-violent felony? What if someone lies on their tax form for example?
Posted by: I Mean at February 05, 2023 01:02 PM (G7bj9)
And there are obviously MANY so-called crimes that get labeled as "violent," that really aren't.
What if you take the phone away from your teenage daughter, so she can't send nudes to her 27 year old boyfriend?
Guess who gets charged with a violent crime, if she calls the cops?
If you walk into a store and take a candy bar, and you have a 3" pocketknife on your person, you're an armed robber.
Let's not even talk about using "bad" words at school or work or wherever else the woke mafia are in charge.
Posted by: I Mean at February 05, 2023 01:02 PM (G7bj9)
And there are obviously MANY so-called crimes that get labeled as "violent," that really aren't.
What if you take the phone away from your teenage daughter, so she can't send nudes to her 27 year old boyfriend?
Guess who gets charged with a violent crime, if she calls the cops?
If you walk into a store and take a candy bar, and you have a 3" pocketknife on your person, you're an armed robber.
Let's not even talk about using "bad" words at school or work or wherever else the woke mafia are in charge.
Posted by: BurtTC at February 05, 2023 01:07 PM (QBaJw)
168
So the recidivist offender, who clearly doesn't care about the law, goes out and gets one, anyway. And sets out to victimize people with it again, anyway. You've gained jack shit, and given up a lot for the privilege of getting jack shit for it.
Posted by: Yudhishthira's Dice at February 05, 2023 12:50 PM (oINRc)
And a free country has to accept a modicum of chaos. We could shrink crime down to a triviality in this country, but it would no longer be America.
Posted by: Yudhishthira's Dice at February 05, 2023 12:50 PM (oINRc)
And a free country has to accept a modicum of chaos. We could shrink crime down to a triviality in this country, but it would no longer be America.
Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo at February 05, 2023 01:08 PM (XIJ/X)
169
Clearly we're doing something wrong. And it doesn't seem like more prison and more cops and more restrictive laws are doing a damn thing to improve anything.
Look where crime is spiking, more cops and more restrictive laws aren't happening there. Just the opposite.
Posted by: JackStraw at February 05, 2023 01:03 PM (ZLI7S)
It's because societies will mimic their governments.
Look where crime is spiking, more cops and more restrictive laws aren't happening there. Just the opposite.
Posted by: JackStraw at February 05, 2023 01:03 PM (ZLI7S)
It's because societies will mimic their governments.
Posted by: Dr. Pork Chops & Bacons at February 05, 2023 01:08 PM (BdMk6)
170
>>On the other hand I really liked the law that used to exist that "every day you serve without a problem in jail, you get a day off your sentence" Nothing like an incentive to be good. That was fixed, though.
I'm kind of torn on that one. While in theory it should lead to better behavior while incarcerated I really don't like the trend of violent criminals serving less time for some classes of crime.
I've also never bought the argument that the death penalty isn't a deterrent for some crimes. The person who committed the crime won't do it again and that's guaranteed.
I'm kind of torn on that one. While in theory it should lead to better behavior while incarcerated I really don't like the trend of violent criminals serving less time for some classes of crime.
I've also never bought the argument that the death penalty isn't a deterrent for some crimes. The person who committed the crime won't do it again and that's guaranteed.
Posted by: JackStraw at February 05, 2023 01:09 PM (ZLI7S)
171
Garnish their wages. Welfare, lottery winnings, Pension, anything. From whatever source derived.
=====
And when is enough when the means of earning of living is denied?
Fire up the branding irons and remind all 'offenders' of the State's great mercy in granting their life. Hmmmm, I thought right to life . . .
=====
And when is enough when the means of earning of living is denied?
Fire up the branding irons and remind all 'offenders' of the State's great mercy in granting their life. Hmmmm, I thought right to life . . .
Posted by: mustbequantum at February 05, 2023 01:09 PM (MIKMs)
172
Should felons have their right to worship the Lord revoked?
Posted by: Bitter Clinger at February 05, 2023 01:09 PM (IcTQ4)
173
110 Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo at February 05, 2023 12:45 PM (XIJ/X)
Thanks to the Chevron doctrine the regulatory state can make anyone a felon at any time.
I dislike Atlas Shrugged being made a documentary every bit that I hate 1984 and Brave New World being made cookbooks.
Thanks to the Chevron doctrine the regulatory state can make anyone a felon at any time.
I dislike Atlas Shrugged being made a documentary every bit that I hate 1984 and Brave New World being made cookbooks.
Posted by: sven at February 05, 2023 01:09 PM (Lzpvj)
174
I've told it before but we knew a guy that was convicted of a misdemeanor sex offense. He was 19 and touched a fully clothed 17 year old girl on the breast. He did 3 months community service. My husband got the paperwork on the conviction, so this is not hearsay. He never had another sex related offense, yet they required him to register for the rest of his life. And they would haul him into jail if he didn't. My husband talked to the prosecutor. She said she wouldn't have prosecuted the case, if she'd known. Of course, the way to clear it required paying a lawyer money. We were able to convince the local prosecutor that he was guilty of just a misdemeanor.
Posted by: Notsothoreau at February 05, 2023 01:00 PM (4IUUf)
this is due to our system using a rigid age cutoff rather than taking totality of circumstances into consideration. For example, in the case you mention, there is a huge difference in a relationship between two teenagers, and say one between a 35 year old man and a 14 year old girl.
Posted by: Notsothoreau at February 05, 2023 01:00 PM (4IUUf)
this is due to our system using a rigid age cutoff rather than taking totality of circumstances into consideration. For example, in the case you mention, there is a huge difference in a relationship between two teenagers, and say one between a 35 year old man and a 14 year old girl.
Posted by: Tom Servo at February 05, 2023 01:09 PM (r46W7)
175
Posted by: BurtTC at February 05, 2023 01:00 PM (QBaJw)
++++++++
I think that you are wrong about that. I believe this is a Western disease, and isn't shared by many countries that aren't Western, Japan being an exception, but crime isn't the problem in Japan. They aren't lawless just childless.
Posted by: DFCtomm at February 05, 2023 01:04 PM (xge03)
I'm not looking at data, but I'd assume any country that isn't seeing spikes in actual crimes committed is the exception and not the rule.
++++++++
I think that you are wrong about that. I believe this is a Western disease, and isn't shared by many countries that aren't Western, Japan being an exception, but crime isn't the problem in Japan. They aren't lawless just childless.
Posted by: DFCtomm at February 05, 2023 01:04 PM (xge03)
I'm not looking at data, but I'd assume any country that isn't seeing spikes in actual crimes committed is the exception and not the rule.
Posted by: BurtTC at February 05, 2023 01:09 PM (QBaJw)
176
What about a non-violent felony? What if someone lies on their tax form for example?
Get rid of the IRS and tax forms.
You get a moderate sales tax and a relatively heavy import duty. Sales taxes are hard to cheat. Import duties can be - but that's actually part of the reason we have a navy and a border patrol.
Get rid of the IRS and tax forms.
You get a moderate sales tax and a relatively heavy import duty. Sales taxes are hard to cheat. Import duties can be - but that's actually part of the reason we have a navy and a border patrol.
Posted by: 18-1 at February 05, 2023 01:10 PM (lc5cP)
Posted by: San Franpsycho at February 05, 2023 01:10 PM (EZebt)
178
Was frozen; should be thawing....
Posted by: JT at February 05, 2023 12:16 PM
Where, in general geographic terms, is said birdbath?
Posted by: JT at February 05, 2023 12:16 PM
Where, in general geographic terms, is said birdbath?
Posted by: RedMindBlueState at February 05, 2023 01:11 PM (Wnv9h)
179
126 Posted by: Sean G at February 05, 2023 12:50 PM (w0gde)
Eh you can legally own a blackpowder firearm as a felon in AZ unless something has changed. A nice 1858 remington properly tuned can be a good self defense gun or in the case of the carbine a home defense one. I have been a fan of blackpowder firearms since my youth.
Good luck regardless.
Eh you can legally own a blackpowder firearm as a felon in AZ unless something has changed. A nice 1858 remington properly tuned can be a good self defense gun or in the case of the carbine a home defense one. I have been a fan of blackpowder firearms since my youth.
Good luck regardless.
Posted by: sven at February 05, 2023 01:12 PM (Lzpvj)
180
If we're talking a communist government like the one we now have? The one which will make a law-abiding citizen a felon for possessing a LEGAL firearm?
Posted by: Eromero at February 05, 2023 01:12 PM (DXbAa)
181
172 Should felons have their right to worship the Lord revoked?
Posted by: Bitter Clinger at February 05, 2023 01:09 PM (IcTQ4)
In England, people who stand on the sidewalk and say silent prayers are having their right to worship the Lord revoked.
Posted by: Bitter Clinger at February 05, 2023 01:09 PM (IcTQ4)
In England, people who stand on the sidewalk and say silent prayers are having their right to worship the Lord revoked.
Posted by: Tom Servo at February 05, 2023 01:12 PM (r46W7)
182
I think that you are wrong about that. I believe this is a Western disease, and isn't shared by many countries that aren't Western, Japan being an exception, but crime isn't the problem in Japan. They aren't lawless just childless.
Posted by: DFCtomm at February 05, 2023 01:04 PM (xge03)
Asian countries don't pay people to be homeless, they put druggies in jail, and beat people for what would be considered a minor offense in the West.
Posted by: DFCtomm at February 05, 2023 01:04 PM (xge03)
Asian countries don't pay people to be homeless, they put druggies in jail, and beat people for what would be considered a minor offense in the West.
Posted by: Kindltot at February 05, 2023 01:12 PM (xhaym)
183
Yeah, I've got one that could take off a finger...easily.
Posted by: BignJames at February 05, 2023 01:04 PM (AwYPR)
I damn near did one day, the finger tip anyway. I'm very careful now. Son did buy me a chain mail glove for my off hand.
Posted by: BignJames at February 05, 2023 01:04 PM (AwYPR)
I damn near did one day, the finger tip anyway. I'm very careful now. Son did buy me a chain mail glove for my off hand.
Posted by: Javems at February 05, 2023 01:13 PM (AmoqO)
184
Are felons barred from exercising any other rights protected by the Constitution? Can they exercise their free speech rights? Are they safe from unreasonable search and seizure (after probation ends)? Must they house soldiers in wartime?
This is a very good question that makes me think seriously about the answer.
This is a very good question that makes me think seriously about the answer.
Posted by: G'rump928(c) at February 05, 2023 01:13 PM (yQpMk)
185
126 I am a retired felon (3 in fact - 2 in 88' 1 in 90'). During time off during Covid I worked with a court appointed lawyer and had my entire record expunged. ===
I thank Sean G for hitting me in my argument with an example of a felony conviction being legally & officially removed by the power of government. In this case, I should suppose the legal bar no longer entails, and it's within your rights to apply for restoration.
I thank Sean G for hitting me in my argument with an example of a felony conviction being legally & officially removed by the power of government. In this case, I should suppose the legal bar no longer entails, and it's within your rights to apply for restoration.
Posted by: exdem13 at February 05, 2023 01:14 PM (W+kMI)
186
>>Asian countries don't pay people to be homeless, they put druggies in jail, and beat people for what would be considered a minor offense in the West.
I am one of the few people who has stepped on a piece of gum in Singapore. In my socks no less.
I wouldn't have objected to a little minor caning for that one.
I am one of the few people who has stepped on a piece of gum in Singapore. In my socks no less.
I wouldn't have objected to a little minor caning for that one.
Posted by: JackStraw at February 05, 2023 01:14 PM (ZLI7S)
187
Same guy had a court appointed attorney for one case. She had so many cases that she couldn't remember his name! Yet the judge congratulated her and assigned her even more cases.
Posted by: Notsothoreau at February 05, 2023 01:16 PM (l6vlV)
188
There are pathways to the restoration of full citizenship rights for felons, I know, I have navigated them...to the point where I was eventually granted a very high security clearance, as well as a "Carry Anywhere" card via a Federal Law Enforcement Agency.(Rescinded when 'my guy' was no longer in office). Whether that pathway of judicial appeal/expungement/rescission/sealed record is available to anyone is based upon the state of the offense, the offense itself, the current state of residence, and the want to of the former offender. It certainly helps if you have a record that shows a 'straighten up, fly right' pattern and some 'good deeds' done in the years since offending.(In my case it was a small amount of powder drugs, and an interstate fleeing prosecution count) The offense was in the early '80s, it's removal the middle 90's. Point to note: In the federal background investigation process you MUST admit it to the FBI/SS team, they WILL know about it, and any departure from the Truth, the Whole Truth is grounds for denial.(I was SHOCKED by what they had in their file, things that had happened around me that I had no knowledge of)
Posted by: birddog at February 05, 2023 01:17 PM (uAI4S)
189
186 Posted by: JackStraw at February 05, 2023 01:14 PM (ZLI7S)
Indonesia is an intersting place as is Singapore. I was watching a movie I think I purchased about a Dutch East Indies based superheroine in Batavia. If/when the when the wife recovers we are giving serious thought to traveling some.
The expat lifestyle could work for us, all we'd be sacrificing is the weapons ownership that may get us FAEd by our own benign government some day.
Indonesia is an intersting place as is Singapore. I was watching a movie I think I purchased about a Dutch East Indies based superheroine in Batavia. If/when the when the wife recovers we are giving serious thought to traveling some.
The expat lifestyle could work for us, all we'd be sacrificing is the weapons ownership that may get us FAEd by our own benign government some day.
Posted by: sven at February 05, 2023 01:17 PM (Lzpvj)
190
Asian countries don't pay people to be homeless, they put druggies in jail, and beat people for what would be considered a minor offense in the West.
Posted by: Kindltot at February 05, 2023 01:12 PM (xhaym)
Concur. There was a news video of Aussies who were arrested in Thailand for running heroin back to Australia.
Brutal prison conditions, beatings, chained up wherever they went, etc, etc. Serving long sentences including life.
Every one of them said to their fellow countrymen "Don't Even Think Of Doing It".
Posted by: Kindltot at February 05, 2023 01:12 PM (xhaym)
Concur. There was a news video of Aussies who were arrested in Thailand for running heroin back to Australia.
Brutal prison conditions, beatings, chained up wherever they went, etc, etc. Serving long sentences including life.
Every one of them said to their fellow countrymen "Don't Even Think Of Doing It".
Posted by: Hairyback Guy at February 05, 2023 01:17 PM (R/m4+)
191
Japan has very little crime for the same reason as Iceland and other similar places - it is a non-tribal, monocultural, and monoracial society.
Posted by: Tom Servo at February 05, 2023 01:18 PM (r46W7)
192
That is not the case for Local Law enforcement queries, nor employer queries....they will have no access to an expunged record.
Posted by: birddog at February 05, 2023 01:18 PM (uAI4S)
193
188 Posted by: birddog at February 05, 2023 01:17 PM (uAI4S)
It is utility, there have always been connected felons near elected federal power. The difference now is the civil service has decided only one set of felons can do their antics unmolested.
It is utility, there have always been connected felons near elected federal power. The difference now is the civil service has decided only one set of felons can do their antics unmolested.
Posted by: sven at February 05, 2023 01:19 PM (Lzpvj)
194
The problem of recidivism only began to rear it's ugly head when bailiffs were forbidden to whack pee-pees.
Posted by: True Crime Fan at February 05, 2023 01:19 PM (wrJpE)
195
187 Same guy had a court appointed attorney for one case. She had so many cases that she couldn't remember his name! Yet the judge congratulated her and assigned her even more cases.
Posted by: Notsothoreau at February 05, 2023 01:16 PM (l6vlV)
Court appointed attorneys are rewarded for making Judges happy and making sure the road is smoothed for their "clients" to make a quick plea deal and move through the system. Since the "clients" aren't paying any bills, what they want is pretty immaterial.
Posted by: Notsothoreau at February 05, 2023 01:16 PM (l6vlV)
Court appointed attorneys are rewarded for making Judges happy and making sure the road is smoothed for their "clients" to make a quick plea deal and move through the system. Since the "clients" aren't paying any bills, what they want is pretty immaterial.
Posted by: Tom Servo at February 05, 2023 01:21 PM (r46W7)
196
It's hard to "fight crime" when FedGov changes what's considered a "crime" every couple of months. I imagine it's only a matter of time before mis-gendering someone will be a felonious hate crime. Not only will you go to prison but you'll have your voting rights and firearms taken.
Because it's not about the gender, it's about your compliance with what the State wants.
Because it's not about the gender, it's about your compliance with what the State wants.
Posted by: Martini Farmer at February 05, 2023 01:21 PM (Q4IgG)
197
Right now, today, if your a white Christian conservative belonging to the Republican Party, and believe in Constitutional law, YOU ARE A CRIMINAL.
Posted by: Dr. Pork Chops & Bacons at February 05, 2023 01:22 PM (BdMk6)
198
Should felons have their right to worship the Lord revoked?
Posted by: Bitter Clinger at February 05, 2023 01:09 PM (IcTQ4)
Which Lord?
Posted by: Bitter Clinger at February 05, 2023 01:09 PM (IcTQ4)
Which Lord?
Posted by: BurtTC at February 05, 2023 01:22 PM (QBaJw)
199
I think the issue of prior restraint is the key one, personally. That's not supposed to up for debate, and it constantly is. It's the same reason why I have no problem aggravating the shit out of a vehicular homicide or maiming if the driver was drunk, but not making DUI a crime in itself. Shit, make it a 25 year sentence, see if I care. But if you can't find a victim, then I can't find a crime.
It is not the role of these public servants to save me from bad guys. If I can't stop a perpetrator for whatever reason, it's their role to take up my case as their own, and obtain justice on my behalf, whether I'm alive or not. This is what they are here for: to preserve order and stave off the endless of cycle of vendetta that persists when lawful authorities don't take a firm and evenhanded role in serving justice.
And I don't think it's any coincidence, that as our government has expanded its role from punishment of crime to prevention of crime, crime has grown completely uncontrollable, and individual rights have become seriously diminished.
I think the issue of prior restraint is the key one, personally. That's not supposed to up for debate, and it constantly is. It's the same reason why I have no problem aggravating the shit out of a vehicular homicide or maiming if the driver was drunk, but not making DUI a crime in itself. Shit, make it a 25 year sentence, see if I care. But if you can't find a victim, then I can't find a crime.
It is not the role of these public servants to save me from bad guys. If I can't stop a perpetrator for whatever reason, it's their role to take up my case as their own, and obtain justice on my behalf, whether I'm alive or not. This is what they are here for: to preserve order and stave off the endless of cycle of vendetta that persists when lawful authorities don't take a firm and evenhanded role in serving justice.
And I don't think it's any coincidence, that as our government has expanded its role from punishment of crime to prevention of crime, crime has grown completely uncontrollable, and individual rights have become seriously diminished.
Posted by: Yudhishthira's Dice at February 05, 2023 01:22 PM (oINRc)
200
Recidivism is a real thing.
I believe voting, gun, and other civil rights should be restored to ex-felons EVENTUALLY. Maybe after 5 or 10 years of no further crimes, including misdemeanors.
Minnesota (Thank you DFL) has just passed a law restoring voting rights to Felons that are out of prison, but have not even completed their sentences and completed their restitution.
I believe voting, gun, and other civil rights should be restored to ex-felons EVENTUALLY. Maybe after 5 or 10 years of no further crimes, including misdemeanors.
Minnesota (Thank you DFL) has just passed a law restoring voting rights to Felons that are out of prison, but have not even completed their sentences and completed their restitution.
Posted by: rd at February 05, 2023 01:23 PM (Z32m1)
201
>>>Should Felons Be Barred From Gun Ownership?
Only in circumstances of violent felony, and only until the conditions of their sentence remain unfinished.
However, that being an ideal, that ideal should be coupled with the ideal of unfettered 2A rights for the lawful.
Only in circumstances of violent felony, and only until the conditions of their sentence remain unfinished.
However, that being an ideal, that ideal should be coupled with the ideal of unfettered 2A rights for the lawful.
Posted by: flounder at February 05, 2023 01:23 PM (PyOKD)
202
196 Posted by: Martini Farmer at February 05, 2023 01:21 PM (Q4IgG)
Going back to my first post herein. Right now the system as rendered is only driving the donk desire to get everyone not agreeing with them made "felons." Eventually not dating a tranny will be a felony.
197 Posted by: Dr. Pork Chops & Bacons at February 05, 2023 01:22 PM (BdMk6)
You can get federally investigated for successfully predicting the Rittenhouse verdict based on known facts.
Going back to my first post herein. Right now the system as rendered is only driving the donk desire to get everyone not agreeing with them made "felons." Eventually not dating a tranny will be a felony.
197 Posted by: Dr. Pork Chops & Bacons at February 05, 2023 01:22 PM (BdMk6)
You can get federally investigated for successfully predicting the Rittenhouse verdict based on known facts.
Posted by: sven at February 05, 2023 01:23 PM (Lzpvj)
203
this is due to our system using a rigid age cutoff rather than taking totality of circumstances into consideration. For example, in the case you mention, there is a huge difference in a relationship between two teenagers, and say one between a 35 year old man and a 14 year old girl.
Posted by: Tom Servo at February 05, 2023 01:09 PM (r46W7)
Libertarians get bogged down here, because the question is always botched.
the question is not "should the age of consent be changed" but "what is child sexual assault, and how do we prevent it" You don't prevent it by changing the definition, for one.
Posted by: Tom Servo at February 05, 2023 01:09 PM (r46W7)
Libertarians get bogged down here, because the question is always botched.
the question is not "should the age of consent be changed" but "what is child sexual assault, and how do we prevent it" You don't prevent it by changing the definition, for one.
Posted by: Kindltot at February 05, 2023 01:24 PM (xhaym)
204
A.C. Barrett
“Felons serving a term of years did not suffer civil death; their rights were suspended but not destroyed,” she concluded. “In sum, a felony conviction and the loss of all rights did not necessarily go hand-in-hand.”
“Felons serving a term of years did not suffer civil death; their rights were suspended but not destroyed,” she concluded. “In sum, a felony conviction and the loss of all rights did not necessarily go hand-in-hand.”
Posted by: Fool Otto at February 05, 2023 01:24 PM (DB16e)
205
191 Japan has very little crime for the same reason as Iceland and other similar places - it is a non-tribal, monocultural, and monoracial society.
Posted by: Tom Servo at February 05, 2023 01:18 PM (r46W7)
just go to Tokyo and order a California roll
then get back to us
Posted by: Tom Servo at February 05, 2023 01:18 PM (r46W7)
just go to Tokyo and order a California roll
then get back to us
Posted by: sofasaver at February 05, 2023 01:24 PM (us2H3)
206
191 Japan has very little crime for the same reason as Iceland and other similar places - it is a non-tribal, monocultural, and monoracial society.
Posted by: Tom Servo at February 05, 2023 01:18 PM (r46W7)
++++++
Yes, in that sense Japan hasn't fully caught the Western disease. They steadfastly refuse to allow immigration, and in the end I think that will be their survival when the West falls apart. They will weather the storm where we will crack along ethnic and cultural faults.
Posted by: Tom Servo at February 05, 2023 01:18 PM (r46W7)
++++++
Yes, in that sense Japan hasn't fully caught the Western disease. They steadfastly refuse to allow immigration, and in the end I think that will be their survival when the West falls apart. They will weather the storm where we will crack along ethnic and cultural faults.
Posted by: DFCtomm at February 05, 2023 01:25 PM (xge03)
207
Perhaps demonstration to the court after serving the sentence that you will be (or maybe have been) law abiding for a couple of years in a row. Plus a far, far more severe penalty next time around if you commit a crime of assault, robbery, rape, burglary, homicide, etc. with a weapon.
This presupposes objective judgment. Obviously and disgustingly politics would no doubt enter the equation at some point.
Any doubt someone in Antifa or BLM would be evaluated differently from a Jan 6 demonstrator?
This presupposes objective judgment. Obviously and disgustingly politics would no doubt enter the equation at some point.
Any doubt someone in Antifa or BLM would be evaluated differently from a Jan 6 demonstrator?
Posted by: RM at February 05, 2023 01:26 PM (crXU+)
208
157 146
----
I disagree firstly because most felonies involve drug posession. Secondly a large number of felonies are white collar crimes. Neither involve guns as I M NOT Tlking drug g
======
Stealing thousands with a forged credit card and a laptop computer is still felony theft due to the established legal amount, even if no violent force was used. Also, letting the computer criminal take a lesser offense while forcing the bank robber with a shotgun and a bag of bills to do hard time really seems unjust & hypocritical to me. Felony drug possession does seem unjust at times, but that can be changed by legal process, defining which drugs can be legally & safely possessed and in what quantity. Getting caught with a trunk full of weed is going to be hard to defend as "personal use" in Ohio, just sayin'.
----
I disagree firstly because most felonies involve drug posession. Secondly a large number of felonies are white collar crimes. Neither involve guns as I M NOT Tlking drug g
======
Stealing thousands with a forged credit card and a laptop computer is still felony theft due to the established legal amount, even if no violent force was used. Also, letting the computer criminal take a lesser offense while forcing the bank robber with a shotgun and a bag of bills to do hard time really seems unjust & hypocritical to me. Felony drug possession does seem unjust at times, but that can be changed by legal process, defining which drugs can be legally & safely possessed and in what quantity. Getting caught with a trunk full of weed is going to be hard to defend as "personal use" in Ohio, just sayin'.
Posted by: exdem13 at February 05, 2023 01:28 PM (W+kMI)
209
If a person is safe to be allowed out in public, he or she is safe to own and carry a gun lawfully.
Period.
If they are not safe, they need to be in an institution.
Period.
If they are not safe, they need to be in an institution.
Posted by: Chuck Kuecker at February 05, 2023 01:29 PM (w0YM7)
210
...The current regime is illegitimate; none of its sentences are legal, and I don't recognize a single one as valid. Or the laws from which they're derived.
Every last product of our government is bitter fruit from a poisoned root, and that's all I really need to know.
Posted by: Yudhishthira's Dice at February 05, 2023 12:11 PM (oINRc)
That's exactly where I'm at as well.
Every last product of our government is bitter fruit from a poisoned root, and that's all I really need to know.
Posted by: Yudhishthira's Dice at February 05, 2023 12:11 PM (oINRc)
That's exactly where I'm at as well.
Posted by: Chairborne!...Desk From Above! at February 05, 2023 01:29 PM (xnWR/)
211
Court appointed attorneys are rewarded for making Judges happy and making sure the road is smoothed for their "clients" to make a quick plea deal and move through the system. Since the "clients" aren't paying any bills, what they want is pretty immaterial.
Posted by: Tom Servo at February 05, 2023 01:21 PM (r46W7)
Exactly. I've had lots of people start a statement about their legal problems using the words "My attorney says..."
Your attorney??
Who is paying that person? Where is their office? Right down the hall from the judge and prosecutor? It's not YOUR attorney! It's their attorney. You're just the meat they grind in their factory.
Posted by: Tom Servo at February 05, 2023 01:21 PM (r46W7)
Exactly. I've had lots of people start a statement about their legal problems using the words "My attorney says..."
Your attorney??
Who is paying that person? Where is their office? Right down the hall from the judge and prosecutor? It's not YOUR attorney! It's their attorney. You're just the meat they grind in their factory.
Posted by: BurtTC at February 05, 2023 01:29 PM (QBaJw)
212
211 Posted by: BurtTC at February 05, 2023 01:29 PM (QBaJw)
They built a pretty little money machine, which is what all government activity eventually becomes.
If you asked democrat prosecutors, judges, and law makers to a mule they would swear they hate the dreaded "military-industrial complex" but the judicial-penal one is just ducky I guess.
Ike had the modern era's number in his farewell speech.
They built a pretty little money machine, which is what all government activity eventually becomes.
If you asked democrat prosecutors, judges, and law makers to a mule they would swear they hate the dreaded "military-industrial complex" but the judicial-penal one is just ducky I guess.
Ike had the modern era's number in his farewell speech.
Posted by: sven at February 05, 2023 01:31 PM (Lzpvj)
213
The Second Amendment right of people six years of age is infringed, nationwide. Why?
Posted by: Gref at February 05, 2023 01:31 PM (AMIL/)
214
If they are not safe, they need to be in an institution.
Posted by: Chuck Kuecker at February 05, 2023 01:29 PM (w0YM7)
Which brings up another point, not yet covered here (I didn't see it, at least). Lots of people "committing" crimes that our so-called justice system is processing, are very sick, mentally. Very sick.
Our prisons ARE mental institutions, housing thousands and thousands of insane people who crossed the threshold of what our society deems the wrong side of the law.
Real life crazy people. Where else are we going to send them? Nowhere. So they rot in prisons.
Posted by: Chuck Kuecker at February 05, 2023 01:29 PM (w0YM7)
Which brings up another point, not yet covered here (I didn't see it, at least). Lots of people "committing" crimes that our so-called justice system is processing, are very sick, mentally. Very sick.
Our prisons ARE mental institutions, housing thousands and thousands of insane people who crossed the threshold of what our society deems the wrong side of the law.
Real life crazy people. Where else are we going to send them? Nowhere. So they rot in prisons.
Posted by: BurtTC at February 05, 2023 01:33 PM (QBaJw)
215
I believe voting, gun, and other civil rights should be restored to ex-felons EVENTUALLY.
I'm OK with that. Make it a term of parole. At some point, you've done your time.
I'm OK with that. Make it a term of parole. At some point, you've done your time.
Posted by: Tell It Like It Is at February 05, 2023 01:33 PM (zZ9o2)
216
Good thread; thanks.
States, Territorial rights. So, like the abortion & voting issues, it's a cluster fu*#, and it'll likely be what our masters deem it to be under (some form/some groups') Civil Rights. We'll go around and around unless & until it finally costs agencies, politicians, NGOs big $ & jobs.
--------
justice dot gov - 5/19/22, 51 pages, Guide to State Voting Rules That Apply After a Criminal Conviction
By the Civil Right Divison. Overview: The right to vote is the foundation of American democracy. But a citizen who is convicted of a crime can lose that right. This document is designed to help citizens who meet the age and residency requirements to understand how the state-by-state rules about voting after a criminal conviction could apply to them.
Interesting, in the voting guide: In Maine, Puerto Rico, Vermont, and Washington D.C., a criminal conviction never restricts your voting rights. You can vote even if you are incarcerated.
States, Territorial rights. So, like the abortion & voting issues, it's a cluster fu*#, and it'll likely be what our masters deem it to be under (some form/some groups') Civil Rights. We'll go around and around unless & until it finally costs agencies, politicians, NGOs big $ & jobs.
--------
justice dot gov - 5/19/22, 51 pages, Guide to State Voting Rules That Apply After a Criminal Conviction
By the Civil Right Divison. Overview: The right to vote is the foundation of American democracy. But a citizen who is convicted of a crime can lose that right. This document is designed to help citizens who meet the age and residency requirements to understand how the state-by-state rules about voting after a criminal conviction could apply to them.
Interesting, in the voting guide: In Maine, Puerto Rico, Vermont, and Washington D.C., a criminal conviction never restricts your voting rights. You can vote even if you are incarcerated.
Posted by: Lola at February 05, 2023 01:33 PM (Wxlzw)
217
Perhaps demonstration to the court after serving the sentence that you will be (or maybe have been) law abiding for a couple of years in a row. Plus a far, far more severe penalty next time around if you commit a crime of assault, robbery, rape, burglary, homicide, etc. with a weapon.
-----
This is what parole/probation, and sentencing hearings are for.
Parole and probation are just a strictly-limited freedom like we describe for rehabilitated felons when it comes to voting and gun ownership. But they are time-limited at the sentencing.
And pre-Soros, all DAs *did* pursue stiffer sentences for repeat offenders, and many States/counties passed "three strikes" laws.
Nothing precludes denying a person's rights for *some period of time.* It could be for ten days, or 100 years. The question is whether the rights are restored or not. If not, then you've never served your sentence. It is a life sentence.
Perhaps demonstration to the court after serving the sentence that you will be (or maybe have been) law abiding for a couple of years in a row. Plus a far, far more severe penalty next time around if you commit a crime of assault, robbery, rape, burglary, homicide, etc. with a weapon.
-----
This is what parole/probation, and sentencing hearings are for.
Parole and probation are just a strictly-limited freedom like we describe for rehabilitated felons when it comes to voting and gun ownership. But they are time-limited at the sentencing.
And pre-Soros, all DAs *did* pursue stiffer sentences for repeat offenders, and many States/counties passed "three strikes" laws.
Nothing precludes denying a person's rights for *some period of time.* It could be for ten days, or 100 years. The question is whether the rights are restored or not. If not, then you've never served your sentence. It is a life sentence.
Posted by: Yudhishthira's Dice at February 05, 2023 01:33 PM (oINRc)
218
If there is no chance of redemption, we are all screwed.
Posted by: mustbequantum
This hits very center of mass at the Christian basis and foundation of our country, morals and ethics. Probably another reason we should shutdown immigration.
Posted by: mustbequantum
This hits very center of mass at the Christian basis and foundation of our country, morals and ethics. Probably another reason we should shutdown immigration.
Posted by: BifBewalski at February 05, 2023 01:33 PM (3CCua)
219
The current regime is illegitimate; none of its sentences are legal, and I don't recognize a single one as valid. Or the laws from which they're derived.
Every last product of our government is bitter fruit from a poisoned root, and that's all I really need to know.
Posted by: Yudhishthira's Dice at February 05, 2023 12:11 PM (oINRc)
That's exactly where I'm at as well.
Posted by: Chairborne!...Desk From Above! at February 05, 2023 01:29 PM (xnWR/)
Yup. I'm also at this point.
Every last product of our government is bitter fruit from a poisoned root, and that's all I really need to know.
Posted by: Yudhishthira's Dice at February 05, 2023 12:11 PM (oINRc)
That's exactly where I'm at as well.
Posted by: Chairborne!...Desk From Above! at February 05, 2023 01:29 PM (xnWR/)
Yup. I'm also at this point.
Posted by: Dr. Pork Chops & Bacons at February 05, 2023 01:34 PM (BdMk6)
220
If you asked democrat prosecutors, judges, and law makers to a mule they would swear they hate the dreaded "military-industrial complex" but the judicial-penal one is just ducky I guess.
Ike had the modern era's number in his farewell speech.
Posted by: sven at February 05, 2023 01:31 PM (Lzpvj)
"... law makers to a mule..."
Heh.
Ike had the modern era's number in his farewell speech.
Posted by: sven at February 05, 2023 01:31 PM (Lzpvj)
"... law makers to a mule..."
Heh.
Posted by: BurtTC at February 05, 2023 01:35 PM (QBaJw)
221
213 Posted by: Gref at February 05, 2023 01:31 PM (AMIL/)
Why is the state vested in parental matters?
I was shooting at age 5. It did not hurt society, my family, or the state at all. Somewhere along the way "freedom" became "the freedom to dictate other people's choices."
Why is the state vested in parental matters?
I was shooting at age 5. It did not hurt society, my family, or the state at all. Somewhere along the way "freedom" became "the freedom to dictate other people's choices."
Posted by: sven at February 05, 2023 01:35 PM (Lzpvj)
222
191 Japan has very little crime for the same reason as Iceland and other similar places - it is a non-tribal, monocultural, and monoracial society.
====
Japan also has a stern legal and judicial system. Due to the collective & cooperative nature of their society, social deviance of any kind is frowned on, and criminal deviance is punished with the full force of law. I don't care what's done in yakuza or gang banger manga, I'd not want to do time in a Japanese prison for any offense.
====
Japan also has a stern legal and judicial system. Due to the collective & cooperative nature of their society, social deviance of any kind is frowned on, and criminal deviance is punished with the full force of law. I don't care what's done in yakuza or gang banger manga, I'd not want to do time in a Japanese prison for any offense.
Posted by: exdem13 at February 05, 2023 01:37 PM (W+kMI)
223
If you get caught again for a second strike, you're obviously too stupid to be out in polite society amongst law-abiding citizens.
This is where firearms and the firing squad come in.
Posted by: Dr. Bone at February 05, 2023 12:36 PM (Jg7EG)
Yes, if you've ever been in a prison, it is what I'd imagine Hell is like.
This is where firearms and the firing squad come in.
Posted by: Dr. Bone at February 05, 2023 12:36 PM (Jg7EG)
Yes, if you've ever been in a prison, it is what I'd imagine Hell is like.
Posted by: clutch at February 05, 2023 01:38 PM (h0CvH)
224
This is what parole/probation, and sentencing hearings are for.
...
Posted by: Yudhishthira's Dice at February 05, 2023 01:33 PM (oINRc)
One thing that REALLY sticks in my craw, is how parole is only deemed permissible... if you show "remorse."
The person who claims they were falsely accused, tried, and sentenced? They have to "show remorse" if they want out of prison. Don't feel any remorse? You damn well better fake it, and "admit" what you did.
Otherwise, you can rot.
And don't even get me started on people who feel they are forced to a false confession of a "lesser" crime, just so they can avoid the decades in prison their "own lawyers" are telling them they'll have to face if they don't cop to it.
...
Posted by: Yudhishthira's Dice at February 05, 2023 01:33 PM (oINRc)
One thing that REALLY sticks in my craw, is how parole is only deemed permissible... if you show "remorse."
The person who claims they were falsely accused, tried, and sentenced? They have to "show remorse" if they want out of prison. Don't feel any remorse? You damn well better fake it, and "admit" what you did.
Otherwise, you can rot.
And don't even get me started on people who feel they are forced to a false confession of a "lesser" crime, just so they can avoid the decades in prison their "own lawyers" are telling them they'll have to face if they don't cop to it.
Posted by: BurtTC at February 05, 2023 01:39 PM (QBaJw)
225
Pitfalls of evaluating risk:
Muldoon: "I've answered all your questions to the best of my ability. Do yoou consider me a risk to myself?"
Psychologist: "No."
Muldoon: "Do you consider me a risk to others?"
Psychologist: "No."
Muldoon: *punches psychologist in the nose*. "How about now?"
Muldoon: "I've answered all your questions to the best of my ability. Do yoou consider me a risk to myself?"
Psychologist: "No."
Muldoon: "Do you consider me a risk to others?"
Psychologist: "No."
Muldoon: *punches psychologist in the nose*. "How about now?"
Posted by: Muldoon at February 05, 2023 01:39 PM (ykeLU)
226
Japan has very little crime for the same reason as Iceland and other similar places - it is a non-tribal, monocultural, and monoracial society.
Posted by: Tom Servo
They miss out on vibrant diversity.
Japan has very little crime for the same reason as Iceland and other similar places - it is a non-tribal, monocultural, and monoracial society.
Posted by: Tom Servo
They miss out on vibrant diversity.
Posted by: Bertram Cabot, Jr. at February 05, 2023 01:39 PM (63Dwl)
227
Japan also has a stern legal and judicial system. Due to the collective & cooperative nature of their society, social deviance of any kind is frowned on, and criminal deviance is punished with the full force of law. I don't care what's done in yakuza or gang banger manga, I'd not want to do time in a Japanese prison for any offense.
Posted by: exdem13 at February 05, 2023 01:37 PM (W+kMI)
Japanese prisoners love round eye brown eye.
Posted by: exdem13 at February 05, 2023 01:37 PM (W+kMI)
Japanese prisoners love round eye brown eye.
Posted by: Dr. Pork Chops & Bacons at February 05, 2023 01:40 PM (BdMk6)
228
And don't even get me started on people who feel they are forced to a false confession of a "lesser" crime, just so they can avoid the decades in prison their "own lawyers" are telling them they'll have to face if they don't cop to it.
Posted by: BurtTC at February 05, 2023 01:39 PM (QBaJw)
Which is another way you get a lot of those "high recidivism" rates people like to throw around.
Posted by: BurtTC at February 05, 2023 01:39 PM (QBaJw)
Which is another way you get a lot of those "high recidivism" rates people like to throw around.
Posted by: BurtTC at February 05, 2023 01:41 PM (QBaJw)
229
If a felon can get voting rights back then sure, restore all the rights. Debt paid to society and all that.
Posted by: blaster at February 05, 2023 01:42 PM (pwExq)
230
I briefly worked with a guy who spent all of his vacation time in the Philippines. He was a really nice, average looking white guy.
Absolutely gushed about the lifestyle to be had there. Saved every penny he had and then moved there.
A few people he knew said he was doing great and was never coming back.
I always think of that when people talk about leaving the US.
Absolutely gushed about the lifestyle to be had there. Saved every penny he had and then moved there.
A few people he knew said he was doing great and was never coming back.
I always think of that when people talk about leaving the US.
Posted by: pawn at February 05, 2023 01:42 PM (kYVzH)
231
Every last product of our government is bitter fruit from a poisoned root, and that's all I really need to know.
Count me in.
Count me in.
Posted by: Tell It Like It Is at February 05, 2023 01:42 PM (zZ9o2)
232
Muldoon: *punches psychologist in the nose*. "How about now?"
Posted by: Muldoon at February 05, 2023 01:39 PM (ykeLU)
Now you're just being silly.
**Now??**
This is why they say you're a "low" risk. They don't say you're no risk. Lots of wiggle room in the use of that word.
Posted by: Muldoon at February 05, 2023 01:39 PM (ykeLU)
Now you're just being silly.
**Now??**
This is why they say you're a "low" risk. They don't say you're no risk. Lots of wiggle room in the use of that word.
Posted by: BurtTC at February 05, 2023 01:42 PM (QBaJw)
233
I believe a revocation or suspension of certain privileges for a specified period of time after release from prison is appropriate. But not lifetime bans.
But, I have no faith in the criminal justice system in general, so I have no faith that decisions like that would be arrived at fairly or sensibly.
But, I have no faith in the criminal justice system in general, so I have no faith that decisions like that would be arrived at fairly or sensibly.
Posted by: DB at February 05, 2023 01:43 PM (geLO8)
234
This definitely caught my attention:
"Not to make this TOO personal, but when my now ex-wife filed a totally baseless restraining order against me, I was made to give up possession of my firearms."
The ability for women to get baseless ex parte DVROs is an utter travesty. For one thing, the notion of abuse is based on the Duluth model which essentially says if you're a man and you do something a woman doesn't like, it's abuse. No, seriously, go find the Duluth wheel of abuse and tell me if you draw a different conclusion. And not only is the 2nd amendment violation grossly unconstitutional, these are used routinely to make men homeless, propertyless, and keep them from their children. It's a gimme to women for divorce leverage and it's a fuck you to men. The whole corrupt, diseased edifice needs to be torn down, but this will never happen because divorce is a multi-billion dollar industry in this country.
"Not to make this TOO personal, but when my now ex-wife filed a totally baseless restraining order against me, I was made to give up possession of my firearms."
The ability for women to get baseless ex parte DVROs is an utter travesty. For one thing, the notion of abuse is based on the Duluth model which essentially says if you're a man and you do something a woman doesn't like, it's abuse. No, seriously, go find the Duluth wheel of abuse and tell me if you draw a different conclusion. And not only is the 2nd amendment violation grossly unconstitutional, these are used routinely to make men homeless, propertyless, and keep them from their children. It's a gimme to women for divorce leverage and it's a fuck you to men. The whole corrupt, diseased edifice needs to be torn down, but this will never happen because divorce is a multi-billion dollar industry in this country.
Posted by: Insomniac for a minute or two at February 05, 2023 01:43 PM (II3Gr)
235
>>>The Second Amendment right of people six years of age is infringed, nationwide. Why?
>One could argue that 6 year old really isn't a citizen yet. Just because a child it taught the Pledge of Allegiance doesn't mean the child fully grasps what it means to be a citizen. Rather, I think minors are granted privileges thru the stewardship of a parent or guardian and it would be the steward to decide where to draw the "infringement line" for a child.
>One could argue that 6 year old really isn't a citizen yet. Just because a child it taught the Pledge of Allegiance doesn't mean the child fully grasps what it means to be a citizen. Rather, I think minors are granted privileges thru the stewardship of a parent or guardian and it would be the steward to decide where to draw the "infringement line" for a child.
Posted by: Dr. Bone at February 05, 2023 01:44 PM (Jg7EG)
236
Absolutely gushed about the lifestyle to be had there. Saved every penny he had and then moved there.
A few people he knew said he was doing great and was never coming back.
I always think of that when people talk about leaving the US.
Posted by: pawn at February 05, 2023 01:42 PM (kYVzH)
I knew a guy who moved to the Philippines. Gushed about it... until he came back, after they accused him of having trying to have sex with children.
Swears he didn't. I think he probably did.
A few people he knew said he was doing great and was never coming back.
I always think of that when people talk about leaving the US.
Posted by: pawn at February 05, 2023 01:42 PM (kYVzH)
I knew a guy who moved to the Philippines. Gushed about it... until he came back, after they accused him of having trying to have sex with children.
Swears he didn't. I think he probably did.
Posted by: BurtTC at February 05, 2023 01:45 PM (QBaJw)
237
>They miss out on vibrant diversity.
Posted by: Bertram Cabot, Jr.
Lucky bastards
diversity and E pluribus unum are 180 degrees opposite
it's not working
Posted by: Bertram Cabot, Jr.
Lucky bastards
diversity and E pluribus unum are 180 degrees opposite
it's not working
Posted by: DB at February 05, 2023 01:45 PM (geLO8)
238
I briefly worked with a guy who spent all of his vacation time in the Philippines. He was a really nice, average looking white guy.
Absolutely gushed about the lifestyle to be had there. Saved every penny he had and then moved there.
A few people he knew said he was doing great and was never coming back.
I always think of that when people talk about leaving the US.
Posted by: pawn at February 05, 2023 01:42 PM (kYVzH)
I've talked to a lot of ex-pats from Thailand and they say the same thing.
Absolutely gushed about the lifestyle to be had there. Saved every penny he had and then moved there.
A few people he knew said he was doing great and was never coming back.
I always think of that when people talk about leaving the US.
Posted by: pawn at February 05, 2023 01:42 PM (kYVzH)
I've talked to a lot of ex-pats from Thailand and they say the same thing.
Posted by: Dr. Pork Chops & Bacons at February 05, 2023 01:46 PM (BdMk6)
239
And let us not forget possible, future Regional governments and also current Community Oriented Policing Services (COPS).
DOJ - The FY 2023 budget request for COPS totals $651.0 million, equal to the FY 2022 President's Budget level and is 21.4 percent above the FY 2022 Enacted level.
DOJ - Press Release, Thursday, October 13, 2022: Justice Department Announces $139 Million for Law Enforcement Hiring to Advance Community Policing
DOJ - The FY 2023 budget request for COPS totals $651.0 million, equal to the FY 2022 President's Budget level and is 21.4 percent above the FY 2022 Enacted level.
DOJ - Press Release, Thursday, October 13, 2022: Justice Department Announces $139 Million for Law Enforcement Hiring to Advance Community Policing
Posted by: Lola at February 05, 2023 01:47 PM (Wxlzw)
240
I've also never bought the argument that the death penalty isn't a deterrent for some crimes. The person who committed the crime won't do it again and that's guaranteed.
Posted by: JackStraw at February 05, 2023 01:09 PM (ZLI7S)
After 20-30 years on death row and multiple appeals. It is an unworkable system in this country, which is why I am against it.
Posted by: JackStraw at February 05, 2023 01:09 PM (ZLI7S)
After 20-30 years on death row and multiple appeals. It is an unworkable system in this country, which is why I am against it.
Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo at February 05, 2023 01:47 PM (XIJ/X)
241
The ability for women to get baseless ex parte DVROs is an utter travesty. For one thing, the notion of abuse is based on the Duluth model which essentially says if you're a man and you do something a woman doesn't like, it's abuse. No, seriously, go find the Duluth wheel of abuse and tell me if you draw a different conclusion. And not only is the 2nd amendment violation grossly unconstitutional, these are used routinely to make men homeless, propertyless, and keep them from their children. It's a gimme to women for divorce leverage and it's a fuck you to men. The whole corrupt, diseased edifice needs to be torn down, but this will never happen because divorce is a multi-billion dollar industry in this country.
Posted by: Insomniac for a minute or two at February 05, 2023 01:43 PM (II3Gr)
Yes, we haven't chatted about this whole issue, and I do recall you offered. Which I greatly appreciated.
Yes, I am quite familiar with the Duluth model.
Did you know sending multiple texts to your wife, because she dropped off the face of the Earth when she lied about going out of state "just" to visit family, can be considered stalking?
I didn't.
Posted by: Insomniac for a minute or two at February 05, 2023 01:43 PM (II3Gr)
Yes, we haven't chatted about this whole issue, and I do recall you offered. Which I greatly appreciated.
Yes, I am quite familiar with the Duluth model.
Did you know sending multiple texts to your wife, because she dropped off the face of the Earth when she lied about going out of state "just" to visit family, can be considered stalking?
I didn't.
Posted by: BurtTC at February 05, 2023 01:49 PM (QBaJw)
242
After 20-30 years on death row and multiple appeals. It is an unworkable system in this country, which is why I am against it.
There are some offenses for which death is the only reasonable justice. Regardless of how long it takes.
There are some offenses for which death is the only reasonable justice. Regardless of how long it takes.
Posted by: Tell It Like It Is at February 05, 2023 01:50 PM (zZ9o2)
243
After 20-30 years on death row and multiple appeals. It is an unworkable system in this country, which is why I am against it.
Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo at February 05, 2023 01:47 PM (XIJ/X)
What about Federal dp cases? better/worse/same?
Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo at February 05, 2023 01:47 PM (XIJ/X)
What about Federal dp cases? better/worse/same?
Posted by: BignJames at February 05, 2023 01:50 PM (AwYPR)
244
224 And don't even get me started on people who feel they are forced to a false confession of a "lesser" crime, just so they can avoid the decades in prison their "own lawyers" are telling them they'll have to face if they don't cop to it.
=========
I agree with you on this one, Burt. Plea bargaining has made the protection from self-incrimination and the right to a trial of one's peers a bad joke. People who have been arrested are bullied by prosecutor and police to accept a lesser charge instead of standing on their rights to a fair trial conducted before the end of the year. A felony conviction of less standing than the original charge is still a felony conviction, and the suspect is made to willingly waive their God-given constitutional rights to justice in a court of law. Who knows, maybe they didn't do it, or the evidence is no good, or the police are taking a running jump to conclusions. Won't know now, because the "plea bargain" is no bargain. "Felon" is a lifetime condition, which is what CBD is talking about.
=========
I agree with you on this one, Burt. Plea bargaining has made the protection from self-incrimination and the right to a trial of one's peers a bad joke. People who have been arrested are bullied by prosecutor and police to accept a lesser charge instead of standing on their rights to a fair trial conducted before the end of the year. A felony conviction of less standing than the original charge is still a felony conviction, and the suspect is made to willingly waive their God-given constitutional rights to justice in a court of law. Who knows, maybe they didn't do it, or the evidence is no good, or the police are taking a running jump to conclusions. Won't know now, because the "plea bargain" is no bargain. "Felon" is a lifetime condition, which is what CBD is talking about.
Posted by: exdem13 at February 05, 2023 01:51 PM (W+kMI)
245
Posted by: JackStraw at February 05, 2023 01:09 PM (ZLI7S)
After 20-30 years on death row and multiple appeals. It is an unworkable system in this country, which is why I am against it.
Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo at February 05, 2023 01:47 PM (XIJ/X)
Yes, that and there absolutely ARE people on death row, and subsequently put to death, who didn't commit the crime for which they were convicted and killed.
After 20-30 years on death row and multiple appeals. It is an unworkable system in this country, which is why I am against it.
Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo at February 05, 2023 01:47 PM (XIJ/X)
Yes, that and there absolutely ARE people on death row, and subsequently put to death, who didn't commit the crime for which they were convicted and killed.
Posted by: BurtTC at February 05, 2023 01:51 PM (QBaJw)
246
I think the cruelest and most ridiculous penalty is Life Without Parole. We are still going to kill you, but first we are going to torture you for 50 years in Supermax.
If what you have done is bad enough to deserve that, you should just be executed straight away.
If what you have done is bad enough to deserve that, you should just be executed straight away.
Posted by: G'rump928(c) at February 05, 2023 01:51 PM (yQpMk)
247
Every last product of our government is bitter fruit from a poisoned root, and that's all I really need to know.
Posted by: Yudhishthira's Dice at February 05, 2023 12:11 PM (oINRc)
Absolutely this.
And I'm simply not convinced that a felony conviction should suspend constitutional rights after your sentence is fully served. Commit a violent crime using a gun, go back to prison.
Posted by: Yudhishthira's Dice at February 05, 2023 12:11 PM (oINRc)
Absolutely this.
And I'm simply not convinced that a felony conviction should suspend constitutional rights after your sentence is fully served. Commit a violent crime using a gun, go back to prison.
Posted by: Insomniac for a minute or two at February 05, 2023 01:51 PM (II3Gr)
248
After 20-30 years on death row and multiple appeals. It is an unworkable system in this country, which is why I am against it.
Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo at February 05, 2023 01:47 PM (XIJ/X)
There's only a very small number of states that have any prosecutorial trust to carry out a death penalty. I live in one of them. We kill our killers.
Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo at February 05, 2023 01:47 PM (XIJ/X)
There's only a very small number of states that have any prosecutorial trust to carry out a death penalty. I live in one of them. We kill our killers.
Posted by: Dr. Pork Chops & Bacons at February 05, 2023 01:53 PM (BdMk6)
249
Now you're just being silly.
********
I' always being silly. But there is a point to be made.
Chuck Kuecker (a nick I don't recall) upthread said
"If they are not safe, they need to be in an institution. "
My question is, what methodology is used in determining who is safe, and is that methodology reproducible, or even testable.
It's an unfalsifiable prediction, much like the weatherman saying there's a 50% chance of rain, if not today, then tomorrow.
He who makes the determination of "safe" vs. "not safe" is the final arbiter.
********
I' always being silly. But there is a point to be made.
Chuck Kuecker (a nick I don't recall) upthread said
"If they are not safe, they need to be in an institution. "
My question is, what methodology is used in determining who is safe, and is that methodology reproducible, or even testable.
It's an unfalsifiable prediction, much like the weatherman saying there's a 50% chance of rain, if not today, then tomorrow.
He who makes the determination of "safe" vs. "not safe" is the final arbiter.
Posted by: Muldoon at February 05, 2023 01:54 PM (ykeLU)
250
Was frozen; should be thawing....
Posted by: JT at February 05, 2023 12:16 PM
Where, in general geographic terms, is said birdbath?
Posted by: RedMindBlueState
SE Pa
Posted by: JT at February 05, 2023 12:16 PM
Where, in general geographic terms, is said birdbath?
Posted by: RedMindBlueState
SE Pa
Posted by: JT at February 05, 2023 01:54 PM (T4tVD)
251
"Felon" is a lifetime condition, which is what CBD is talking about.
Posted by: exdem13 at February 05, 2023 01:51 PM (W+kMI)
Yes, and even relatively minor offenses, that can easily be turned into major offense, when probation/parole violations are held over people's heads, sometimes indefinitely.
It's the ol' daylight play. Prosecutors, and your "own" attorney will wave daylight before your eyes, after they've had you locked up. If you sign this, you'll get out today.
You sign. Now they have you, for life.
Posted by: exdem13 at February 05, 2023 01:51 PM (W+kMI)
Yes, and even relatively minor offenses, that can easily be turned into major offense, when probation/parole violations are held over people's heads, sometimes indefinitely.
It's the ol' daylight play. Prosecutors, and your "own" attorney will wave daylight before your eyes, after they've had you locked up. If you sign this, you'll get out today.
You sign. Now they have you, for life.
Posted by: BurtTC at February 05, 2023 01:54 PM (QBaJw)
252
Did you know sending multiple texts to your wife, because she dropped off the face of the Earth when she lied about going out of state "just" to visit family, can be considered stalking?
I didn't.
Posted by: BurtTC at February 05, 2023 01:49 PM (QBaJw)
These laws aren't laws. They're the indulgence of women's subjective destructive whims.
I didn't.
Posted by: BurtTC at February 05, 2023 01:49 PM (QBaJw)
These laws aren't laws. They're the indulgence of women's subjective destructive whims.
Posted by: Insomniac for a minute or two at February 05, 2023 01:55 PM (II3Gr)
253
I've also never bought the argument that the death penalty isn't a deterrent for some crimes. The person who committed the crime won't do it again and that's guaranteed.
Posted by: JackStraw at February 05, 2023 01:09 PM (ZLI7S)
Particularly when the actual execution takes place - if it does at all - 20 plus years after the crime. That's like smacking a dog with a newspaper a week after he pissed on the rug. The dog will never get the connection. Nor will the criminal.
Thanks Mike Farrell. And Ed Asner. Among others.
Posted by: JackStraw at February 05, 2023 01:09 PM (ZLI7S)
Particularly when the actual execution takes place - if it does at all - 20 plus years after the crime. That's like smacking a dog with a newspaper a week after he pissed on the rug. The dog will never get the connection. Nor will the criminal.
Thanks Mike Farrell. And Ed Asner. Among others.
Posted by: Chairborne!...Desk From Above! at February 05, 2023 01:55 PM (xnWR/)
254
What about Federal dp cases? better/worse/same?
Posted by: BignJames at February 05, 2023 01:50 PM (AwYPR)
I don't know whether the federal appeals system is as bad as the various states. But how many federal death penalty cases are there?
Posted by: BignJames at February 05, 2023 01:50 PM (AwYPR)
I don't know whether the federal appeals system is as bad as the various states. But how many federal death penalty cases are there?
Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo at February 05, 2023 01:56 PM (XIJ/X)
255
You sign. Now they have you, for life.
Had a relative decline parole, and serve an extra year. Because he was certain that would be the lever to turn him informant.
Had a relative decline parole, and serve an extra year. Because he was certain that would be the lever to turn him informant.
Posted by: Tell It Like It Is at February 05, 2023 01:57 PM (zZ9o2)
256
Folks,
This has been a real pleasure. Lots of fascinating points and lots of well thought out comments.
Cheers!
CBD
This has been a real pleasure. Lots of fascinating points and lots of well thought out comments.
Cheers!
CBD
Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo at February 05, 2023 01:57 PM (XIJ/X)
257
I' always being silly. But there is a point to be made.
Chuck Kuecker (a nick I don't recall) upthread said
"If they are not safe, they need to be in an institution. "
My question is, what methodology is used in determining who is safe, and is that methodology reproducible, or even testable.
It's an unfalsifiable prediction, much like the weatherman saying there's a 50% chance of rain, if not today, then tomorrow.
He who makes the determination of "safe" vs. "not safe" is the final arbiter.
Posted by: Muldoon at February 05, 2023 01:54 PM (ykeLU)
Sorry, I was just goofing. I agree with your larger point. The so-called experts are guilty of hubris. I have the credentials, so of course what I say is right.
I deem you to be [fill in whatever blank is relevant to this setting].
Yeah, bullship. You're just guessing, just like everybody else.
Chuck Kuecker (a nick I don't recall) upthread said
"If they are not safe, they need to be in an institution. "
My question is, what methodology is used in determining who is safe, and is that methodology reproducible, or even testable.
It's an unfalsifiable prediction, much like the weatherman saying there's a 50% chance of rain, if not today, then tomorrow.
He who makes the determination of "safe" vs. "not safe" is the final arbiter.
Posted by: Muldoon at February 05, 2023 01:54 PM (ykeLU)
Sorry, I was just goofing. I agree with your larger point. The so-called experts are guilty of hubris. I have the credentials, so of course what I say is right.
I deem you to be [fill in whatever blank is relevant to this setting].
Yeah, bullship. You're just guessing, just like everybody else.
Posted by: BurtTC at February 05, 2023 01:58 PM (QBaJw)
258
It's in 40s, not a bad week coming for weather.
Still no snow to speak of
Still no snow to speak of
Posted by: Skip at February 05, 2023 01:58 PM (xhxe8)
259
My question is, what methodology is used in determining who is safe, and is that methodology reproducible, or even testable.
Right. By what standard is this measured? In Stalinist Russia, you were crazy not to fall in line with the communist party heart and soul, so off to the mental hospital with you. You're dangerous you see. If you protest voter fraud in the United States you're a domestic terrorist and insurrectionist and must be held incommunicado in the Garland Archipelago because you aren't safe. It's not just a slippery slope, it's a greased steep slide straight to tyranny.
Right. By what standard is this measured? In Stalinist Russia, you were crazy not to fall in line with the communist party heart and soul, so off to the mental hospital with you. You're dangerous you see. If you protest voter fraud in the United States you're a domestic terrorist and insurrectionist and must be held incommunicado in the Garland Archipelago because you aren't safe. It's not just a slippery slope, it's a greased steep slide straight to tyranny.
Posted by: Insomniac for a minute or two at February 05, 2023 01:59 PM (II3Gr)
260
235 >>>The Second Amendment right of people six years of age is infringed, nationwide. Why?
>One could argue that 6 year old really isn't a citizen yet. Just because a child it taught the Pledge of Allegiance doesn't mean the child fully grasps what it means to be a citizen. Rather, I think minors are granted privileges thru the stewardship of a parent or guardian and it would be the steward to decide where to draw the "infringement line" for a child.
Posted by: Dr. Bone at February 05, 2023 01:44 PM (Jg7EG)
The Constitution has no age requirements for any rights, other than voting. If the FedGov and all the states restict 2A Rights for 6 year olds, why cannot those governing entities restrict 2A rights for felons...or any other category of "the People?"
Being a Devil's Advocate on this one.
>One could argue that 6 year old really isn't a citizen yet. Just because a child it taught the Pledge of Allegiance doesn't mean the child fully grasps what it means to be a citizen. Rather, I think minors are granted privileges thru the stewardship of a parent or guardian and it would be the steward to decide where to draw the "infringement line" for a child.
Posted by: Dr. Bone at February 05, 2023 01:44 PM (Jg7EG)
The Constitution has no age requirements for any rights, other than voting. If the FedGov and all the states restict 2A Rights for 6 year olds, why cannot those governing entities restrict 2A rights for felons...or any other category of "the People?"
Being a Devil's Advocate on this one.
Posted by: Gref at February 05, 2023 02:00 PM (AMIL/)
261
Posted by: BurtTC at February 05, 2023 01:49 PM (QBaJw)
These laws aren't laws. They're the indulgence of women's subjective destructive whims.
Posted by: Insomniac for a minute or two at February 05, 2023 01:55 PM (II3Gr)
The one satisfaction I got, when her attorney tried to get me to agree to the restraining order "for the duration of the divorce case," was when I said something like "nothing I did to her was even remotely abuse." He said "well that's why we're here."
To which I replied, "No, we're here because your client is insane."
These laws aren't laws. They're the indulgence of women's subjective destructive whims.
Posted by: Insomniac for a minute or two at February 05, 2023 01:55 PM (II3Gr)
The one satisfaction I got, when her attorney tried to get me to agree to the restraining order "for the duration of the divorce case," was when I said something like "nothing I did to her was even remotely abuse." He said "well that's why we're here."
To which I replied, "No, we're here because your client is insane."
Posted by: BurtTC at February 05, 2023 02:01 PM (QBaJw)
262
1st NOOD
Posted by: Skip at February 05, 2023 02:01 PM (xhxe8)
263
The current regime is illegitimate; none of its sentences are legal, and I don't recognize a single one as valid. Or the laws from which they're derived.
Every last product of our government is bitter fruit from a poisoned root, and that's all I really need to know.
Posted by: Yudhishthira's Dice at February 05, 2023 12:11 PM (oINRc)
Harsh, but fair.
Every last product of our government is bitter fruit from a poisoned root, and that's all I really need to know.
Posted by: Yudhishthira's Dice at February 05, 2023 12:11 PM (oINRc)
Harsh, but fair.
Posted by: flounder at February 05, 2023 02:01 PM (PyOKD)
264
This one definitely hit a couple of my hot buttons. I'm off again. Be well y'all.
Posted by: Insomniac for a minute or two at February 05, 2023 02:03 PM (II3Gr)
265
This has been a real pleasure. Lots of fascinating points and lots of well thought out comments.
Cheers!
CBD
Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo[/ii]
********
Does this mean a reprieve from "Fat Nekkid Lardass on an Ottoman" for a few more days?
Cheers!
CBD
Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo[/ii]
********
Does this mean a reprieve from "Fat Nekkid Lardass on an Ottoman" for a few more days?
Posted by: Muldoon at February 05, 2023 02:03 PM (ykeLU)
266
But how many federal death penalty cases are there?
Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo at February 05, 2023 01:56 PM (XIJ/X)
I think there's about 50 on death row, but I think Biden has suspended executions.
Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo at February 05, 2023 01:56 PM (XIJ/X)
I think there's about 50 on death row, but I think Biden has suspended executions.
Posted by: BignJames at February 05, 2023 02:04 PM (AwYPR)
267
The Constitution has no age requirements for any rights, other than voting. If the FedGov and all the states restict 2A Rights for 6 year olds, why cannot those governing entities restrict 2A rights for felons...or any other category of "the People?"
Being a Devil's Advocate on this one.
Posted by: Gref at February 05, 2023 02:00 PM (AMIL/)
A child is legally judged to be mentally incapable of utilizing such rights, which is why until the age of majority is reached, some other person, a parent or guardian, is the legal custodian of their rights and authorized to make all such decisions for them, with certain restrictions.
Being a Devil's Advocate on this one.
Posted by: Gref at February 05, 2023 02:00 PM (AMIL/)
A child is legally judged to be mentally incapable of utilizing such rights, which is why until the age of majority is reached, some other person, a parent or guardian, is the legal custodian of their rights and authorized to make all such decisions for them, with certain restrictions.
Posted by: Tom Servo at February 05, 2023 02:04 PM (r46W7)
268
See ya Insom !
Posted by: JT at February 05, 2023 02:04 PM (T4tVD)
269
>>>The Constitution has no age requirements for any rights, other than voting. If the FedGov and all the states restict 2A Rights for 6 year olds, why cannot those governing entities restrict 2A rights for felons...or any other category of "the People?"
Being a Devil's Advocate on this one.
>If Junior has two grand burning a hole in his pocket for a firearm and cartridges, let him have his gun, but please don't tell me I can't carry 24/7.
Being a Devil's Advocate on this one.
>If Junior has two grand burning a hole in his pocket for a firearm and cartridges, let him have his gun, but please don't tell me I can't carry 24/7.
Posted by: Dr. Bone at February 05, 2023 02:06 PM (Jg7EG)
270
I got laughed at when I told the lawyers my wife was mentally unstable.
Then the judge asked her lawyer why she wasn't in court.
He said he wasn't able to explain to her why she had to show up.
I wanted to laugh.
Then the judge asked her lawyer why she wasn't in court.
He said he wasn't able to explain to her why she had to show up.
I wanted to laugh.
Posted by: pawn at February 05, 2023 02:07 PM (kYVzH)
271
"the State has an illegal gun record data base that they created in 1992 that records every single gun purchase in the State, yet they haven't arrested a single person for failure to comply with the law."
yeah, I'm in a conservative area, sheriff says he will not enforce. BUT it is not the burning times yet.
yeah, I'm in a conservative area, sheriff says he will not enforce. BUT it is not the burning times yet.
Posted by: illiniwek at February 05, 2023 02:13 PM (Cus5s)
272
He said he wasn't able to explain to her why she had to show up.
I wanted to laugh.
Posted by: pawn at February 05, 2023 02:07 PM (kYVzH)
Heh. The world doesn't revolve around you, honey.
I wanted to laugh.
Posted by: pawn at February 05, 2023 02:07 PM (kYVzH)
Heh. The world doesn't revolve around you, honey.
Posted by: BurtTC at February 05, 2023 02:14 PM (QBaJw)
273
267 The Constitution has no age requirements for any rights, other than voting. If the FedGov and all the states restict 2A Rights for 6 year olds, why cannot those governing entities restrict 2A rights for felons...or any other category of "the People?"
Being a Devil's Advocate on this one.
Posted by: Gref at February 05, 2023 02:00 PM (AMIL/)
A child is legally judged to be mentally incapable of utilizing such rights, which is why until the age of majority is reached, some other person, a parent or guardian, is the legal custodian of their rights and authorized to make all such decisions for them, with certain restrictions.
Posted by: Tom Servo at February 05, 2023 02:04 PM (r46W7)
The definition of a child and what rights extend to him/her are established by people over 18 years of age! This is blatant age discrimination! (Which isn't defined in the Constitution, for the Bill of Rights Amendments.) Unfortunately, or maybe fortunately, Dip-Shit Brandon is correct when he says no Constitutional rights are absolute.
Being a Devil's Advocate on this one.
Posted by: Gref at February 05, 2023 02:00 PM (AMIL/)
A child is legally judged to be mentally incapable of utilizing such rights, which is why until the age of majority is reached, some other person, a parent or guardian, is the legal custodian of their rights and authorized to make all such decisions for them, with certain restrictions.
Posted by: Tom Servo at February 05, 2023 02:04 PM (r46W7)
The definition of a child and what rights extend to him/her are established by people over 18 years of age! This is blatant age discrimination! (Which isn't defined in the Constitution, for the Bill of Rights Amendments.) Unfortunately, or maybe fortunately, Dip-Shit Brandon is correct when he says no Constitutional rights are absolute.
Posted by: Gref at February 05, 2023 02:16 PM (AMIL/)
274
256 Folks,
This has been a real pleasure. Lots of fascinating points and lots of well thought out comments.
Cheers!
CBD
==========
No prob, CBD, something real to think about and we all had a good talk.
This has been a real pleasure. Lots of fascinating points and lots of well thought out comments.
Cheers!
CBD
==========
No prob, CBD, something real to think about and we all had a good talk.
Posted by: exdem13 at February 05, 2023 02:18 PM (W+kMI)
275
Overall, I can agree that serving one's sentence should be the end of the criminal justice system's punishment.
Here's my caveat. Repeated violations need to have some sort of cumulative impact. You want to restore gun rights to felons? Fine. But if they later get arrested and convicted of brandishing, the penalties need to ramp up. Or any other crime involving a firearm.
Felons may serve their time, but they do not necessarily get a totally clean slate. Because they've shown behavioral tendencies that we should not ignore. History means something.
Here's my caveat. Repeated violations need to have some sort of cumulative impact. You want to restore gun rights to felons? Fine. But if they later get arrested and convicted of brandishing, the penalties need to ramp up. Or any other crime involving a firearm.
Felons may serve their time, but they do not necessarily get a totally clean slate. Because they've shown behavioral tendencies that we should not ignore. History means something.
Posted by: ruralcounsel at February 05, 2023 03:39 PM (96wFa)
276
two tiered justice controlled by political bias is eating everything the founders created. the major nasty Jan 6thers are sentenced with is "interfering with official proceeding".
Democrats have been filmed doing just that when laws they do not like have come up for a vote (which is in the bag). But jailed for this (not a chance) let alone sentenced for stoppage of official proceedings. and not just elected Democrats. Staffers and others partake in the "obstruction"
Democrats have been filmed doing just that when laws they do not like have come up for a vote (which is in the bag). But jailed for this (not a chance) let alone sentenced for stoppage of official proceedings. and not just elected Democrats. Staffers and others partake in the "obstruction"
Posted by: gov't here to help at February 05, 2023 04:35 PM (tr6R7)
277
Any functioning society must have a criminal justice system that imprisons lawbreakers. That is axiomatic.
‐-------
This country existed for 50 years before the first city police force was created. Axiomatic. Or a non-sequitur. Whatever.
‐-------
This country existed for 50 years before the first city police force was created. Axiomatic. Or a non-sequitur. Whatever.
Posted by: insurgens ad opus at February 05, 2023 04:59 PM (vTllh)
278
I am making $100 an hour working from home. I never imagined that it was honest to goodness yet my closest companion is earning $16,000 a month by working on a laptop, that was truly astounding for me, she prescribed for me to attempt it simply. Everybody must try this job now by just using this website.. www.Payathome7.com
Posted by: www.Payathome7.com at February 05, 2023 05:24 PM (3kOPr)
279
Felons are seldom if ever changed from their criminal behavior.
Seems like the punishment for committing a felony, prison + fine + loss of 2A rights + loss of voting rights, is just. And ought to deter anyone with two brain cells to rub together.
Seems like the punishment for committing a felony, prison + fine + loss of 2A rights + loss of voting rights, is just. And ought to deter anyone with two brain cells to rub together.
Posted by: setnaffa at February 05, 2023 06:12 PM (ya2F6)
280
If a man 'pays his debt to society', why do state-worshipping asshole still want to punish him?
It's a mystery.
It's a mystery.
Posted by: insurgens ad opus at February 05, 2023 06:41 PM (w2TUB)
281
With regard to "red flag" laws, while I am skeptical of them in general, I have to say that, having had to deal with a family member who is mentally ill, there is no way that I would have kept a firearm in my home while my family member was floridly ill. To do would have been to invite trouble, possibly of the lethal kind. And no, locks etc. would not have done the trick: said person was ill but also quite intelligent, and quite cable of working around such things if of a mind to do so. I think that is reasonable for we as a people to take steps to keep firearms out of the hands of people who are insane. The problem, of course, is what constitutes "insanity", and how is this to be recognized and enforced. And please don't tell me that such people should be in a hospital. That may be true, but de-institutionalization is a fact that can't be wished away. I wish I had a solution to this problem beyond simply hoping that people in this situation recognize the problem and either dispose of their firearms, or keep them somewhere off-site and safe.
Posted by: Nemo at February 05, 2023 08:27 PM (S6ArX)
282
More than $15k can be earned online by performing straightforward tasks from home. In the previous month, I got $18376. Even a young child may do this job and make money because it is so simple to complete and has higher pay than typical office occupations. Everyone needs to try this task by using the information on this page. www.Salarybez.com
More than $15k can be earned online by performing straightforward tasks from home. In the previous month, I got $18376. Even a young child may do this job and make money because it is so simple to complete and has higher pay than typical office occupations. Everyone needs to try this task by using the information on this page. www.Salarybez.com
Posted by: Joyce Morales at February 06, 2023 01:42 AM (SJCPF)
283
Felons should be in prison.
The entire question "should felons have guns" is designed to make you forget that fact.
The entire question "should felons have guns" is designed to make you forget that fact.
Posted by: JamesTCarville at February 06, 2023 02:27 AM (TNejY)
284
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Posted by: Emily at February 06, 2023 03:24 AM (1WEOE)
285
If someone commits a crime that is egregious enough to forfeit their natural right to self-defense, I would argue they should have just been executed for the crime.
To be clear, there should capital punishment felonies for rape, murder, or any violent crime that shows depraved indifference to your fellow humans...loss of all rights forever.
Then drug use, theft, dui type felonies should be punished with loss of all rights except life for a period of time, then restored, as long as no one was physically harmed in the commission of the crime. Take arson as an example. If a man sets his neighbor's shed on fire...that is a time punishable felony. If he sets the house on fire while the neighbors are in it...loss of all rights, including life.
Felons should not have the privilege to vote. Anyone who shows disdain for the law should not have a say in who writes and enforces those laws.
To be clear, there should capital punishment felonies for rape, murder, or any violent crime that shows depraved indifference to your fellow humans...loss of all rights forever.
Then drug use, theft, dui type felonies should be punished with loss of all rights except life for a period of time, then restored, as long as no one was physically harmed in the commission of the crime. Take arson as an example. If a man sets his neighbor's shed on fire...that is a time punishable felony. If he sets the house on fire while the neighbors are in it...loss of all rights, including life.
Felons should not have the privilege to vote. Anyone who shows disdain for the law should not have a say in who writes and enforces those laws.
Posted by: thesgm at February 06, 2023 10:53 AM (0VY45)
286
If a woman frames a man for rape or a cop frames a man for murder and it leads to execution...that same punishment should be applied to the woman and the cop.
If anthropogenic global warming is really a big deal, lets start up zero recidivism, zero carbon footprint punishments.
If anthropogenic global warming is really a big deal, lets start up zero recidivism, zero carbon footprint punishments.
Posted by: thesgm at February 06, 2023 11:03 AM (VhDvQ)
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