Fleebaggers Gettin' Itchy As 5pm (Central Time) Deadline Looms

You can't stay away from home forever. Being away from home is tough on our troops and they're disciplined and tough. These guys? Pansy-ass punks.

Fox Nation has learned exclusively from a highly placed source within Wisconsin state politics that the fourteen AWOL Democrats are experiencing “dissension in the ranks.” State Sen. Julie Lassa (D) is pregnant and “extremely unhappy” about being on the run. State Sen. Jon Erpenbach (D) has been hit particularly hard by his paycheck being withheld. Wisconsin State Senate leadership is currently negotiating with eight of the fourteen to come home.

Important update over there at Hot Air -- the majority leader may be negotiating, but he says he's not conceding anything as regards the bill.

Meanwhile, a poll is out that says 42% of the country support the unions and only 31% support Walker.

Is that bad? Well, not when you consider that a lot of that 42% of support comes from the young, union members, Democrats... in other words, the pillars of support of the Democratic Party, also known as People Who Will Vote Against Us Anyway So Who Gives A Wet Shit?

I have a little more spin, if you want my spin. I'm not sure how much I'm buying this spin -- but I think I sort of like it.

On a lot of issues, there is something I would call a default, easy, "nice" answer. Like, if I have some kind of poll on some issue that's about trees, I'd expect the "pro-tree" side to get like 60%+ support, easily. On a whole lot of issues, people have no idea what the actual question is about but they offer up emotional responses to key words. Trees? I support them. Health care? I support that. Children? The little children? I'm on the pro-child side, and I don't care who knows it.

That's not to say that such support can be easily disregarded because the same reason people want to say they're "pro-tree" is the same reason they will vote against a politician successfully portrayed as "anti-tree."

But on many issues, there is an easy, lay-up answer, and it usually is a liberal-leaning answer, because, superficially, liberals are in favor of trees, and health care, and children. (At least they favor the idea of children, though they are also pretty big on the idea of, erm, terminating them.)

Now, "unions" are not as an easy lay-up default "nice" thing to support like trees are, but they do have some of that going on there. Like, it's the nice thing to say. People say lots of stupid shit when they're programmed to say the nice thing -- like when Rand Paul said that Wisconsin teachers make $89,000 per year (or three-quarters year, I should say) David Letterman wasted no time in offering the clapper answer "And they should make twice that!!"

Really, dude? A teacher required to be in command of the information a child is supposed to know at age 12 should be making $188,000 per year? Or three quarters year, I should say? For successfully teaching children lessons from a manual they should be making nearly $200,000 per year in straight salary, let alone benefits, and have summers and every major holiday off?

Really?

What the fuck should a doctor make then, I wonder? What should a garbageman make? Their jobs are harder, dirtier, go on throughout the year (including in sub-zero weather) and they have less respect. What should we pay them, then, to make that job competitive with the blandishments afforded teachers?

But you see my point. There is an easy clapper answer, and there is a tougher, more honest, but not-as-nice answer.

So here's my question: if the easy, "nice" clapper answer gets... um, 42% support... is that anything really to crow about?

Only 31% support Walker. What about the 27% who are undecided? What is more likely -- that they more support the unions but feel uncomfortable saying so that they support Walker but feel that isn't nice to say?

I think the latter. That's not strong support, certainly, as they can't even admit it to a pollster.

But I'd tend to bet that if you put them on a lie detector, you'd find they were more on Walker's side than they feel it's socially acceptable to admit.

Because "I support the unions" is such an easy answer to offer, it seems to me that 42% should be taken as the almost the highest level of union support including leaners, and it can be safely assumed that Walker gains the support, when you include leaners, of 55% or more.

Posted by: Ace at 03:40 PM

Comments

(Jump to bottom of comments)

1 Support for the Unions? Only ones I know supporting the Unions are the teachers here in NJ. Other than that, most think they should all drop dead

Posted by: nevergiveup at March 01, 2011 03:41 PM (0GFWk)

2
I think I'm the only one (or first one) to compare these shitbags to the muslim animals who squatted in and ruined the cathredal in Bethlehem.

Posted by: soothsayer says mooooo at March 01, 2011 03:43 PM (uFokq)

3 I'm betting my week's pay the Fleebaggers won't show. They are puss-whacks to the end.

Posted by: EC at March 01, 2011 03:43 PM (mAhn3)

4 ***Really, dude? A teacher required to be in command of the information a child is supposed to know at age 12 should be making $188,000 per year? Or three quarters year, I should say? For successfully teaching children lessons from a manual they should be making nearly $200,000 per year in straight salary, let alone benefits, and have summers and every major holiday off?
****

Be upfront about it then. If I knew these #'s, I wouldn't have worked so hard to get real degrees. I would have gotten a slack jawed educated "masters" and sailed down easy street.

The real world is hard and to even think of earning that kind of money, you actually have to work and sweat, and worry about losing it.

I hate these people. I am becoming immizerated against the government class.

Posted by: joeindc44 at March 01, 2011 03:45 PM (QxSug)

5 That poll is a fucking joke.

Posted by: garrett at March 01, 2011 03:45 PM (9Mf58)

6
I meant the shitbags holed up in the state house, not the shitbags on the lam.

Posted by: soothsayer says mooooo at March 01, 2011 03:45 PM (uFokq)

7 Now, "unions" are not as an easy lay-up default "nice" thing to support like trees are,

This is true. Which is why whenever liberals are talking about a pro-union position, they call unions "working families" instead.

Posted by: Alex at March 01, 2011 03:45 PM (/yzYn)

8 Polls are crazy this time. I'm in commie Ca. and I haven't heard a lot of "we love the Unions" from my unemployed leftist friends.

Posted by: Donna at March 01, 2011 03:45 PM (DhK9/)

9 Is that bad?

Its a PEW poll. It is worthless. Let's Poll SC folks and see what they say.

Posted by: Vic at March 01, 2011 03:46 PM (M9Ie6)

10 Oh, and what happened to the lefty DINK argument of how they're being forced to subsidize those icky breeders? I don't hear a lot of that anymore. cause it's for the kids...er kids' unions.

just like I don't hear about the deficit or about how farm subsidies to red states show that they aren't paying their fair share or something now that bailout nation is upon us.

Posted by: joeindc44 at March 01, 2011 03:46 PM (QxSug)

11 ...and teachers are barely worth half of what they are paid.

Posted by: garrett at March 01, 2011 03:46 PM (9Mf58)

12 Liberal Polling in the 1940's:
Instead of:
Q: Do you want to beat Japan?
A:YES!!
They would do:
Q: Do you want a long drawn out series of naval and ground battles that will cost over 400,000 lives.
A: No.

People are against the war!!!

Posted by: Flapjackmaka at March 01, 2011 03:47 PM (c5RQr)

13 Has the firin' started yet?
and ignore the polls--pure propaganda.

Posted by: snort! at March 01, 2011 03:47 PM (K/USr)

14 178, not 188. Otherwise right on the frickin' nose.

Posted by: buzz at March 01, 2011 03:47 PM (i27M5)

15 Here's how you do a union poll.

1. Ask: "Do you support the unions"?
2. If they say "yes," demand they fork over $100. For the union.
3. If they say "no," have some muscle from the local beat the living shit out of them.
4. If they still support the union, now it's from an informed position.

Posted by: iowahawk at March 01, 2011 03:48 PM (veL4N)

16 The pew poll oversampled dems by 9 points and oversampled blacks by a lot. The didn't give the numbers regarding race of those polled but they did use race on answers. You can tell by looking at the results of the questions that blacks were way over sampled.

Posted by: robtr at March 01, 2011 03:49 PM (hVDig)

17
iHawk, you on vacation or something?

Posted by: soothsayer says mooooo at March 01, 2011 03:49 PM (uFokq)

18
See what I did there?

If Apple made you, you'd be the iHawk.

Posted by: soothsayer says mooooo at March 01, 2011 03:50 PM (uFokq)

19 It's also in the question. Was it something like, "do you oppose efforts to take away the rights of people to organize for the purpose of collective bargaining".

That kind of construction would be really loaded. People are in favor of "rights" and Walker isn't trying to take those rights away. I haven't seen the poll questions but I imagine it would be easy to construct some that get you the default, "nice" response.

Reality doesn't count with the MBM, so that's nice for them.

Posted by: DrewM. at March 01, 2011 03:51 PM (HicGG)

20 Governor Walker on Facebook:

Sen Democrats said they left WI to give public time
to understand bill. Bill was introduced 2.5 weeks ago. They got what
they wanted.

Posted by: Miss'80sBaby at March 01, 2011 03:51 PM (q8u+l)

21 I'll take $180k to teach kids for 3/4ths of a year. That sounds like a pretty sweet gig.

Screw busting my ass as a lawyer for 60 hours a week for a lot less money...

Posted by: wooga at March 01, 2011 03:52 PM (2p0e3)

22 Oh, the Pew Foundation. That certainly makes it official. Didn't they help Billy Ayers waste all that grant money fixing the Chicago scroools?

Posted by: Ex-Republican genius at March 01, 2011 03:52 PM (le5qc)

23
re: sidebar story about Baboon Boxer

What a shithead. I imagine she meant to say, "Republicans have a vendetta against Elmo...

because he's red."

Posted by: soothsayer says mooooo at March 01, 2011 03:53 PM (uFokq)

24 21
I'll take $180k to teach kids for 3/4ths of a year. That sounds like a pretty sweet gig.

Actually, I could make that kind of money NOT teaching in New York. Just get hit on one of your students and get sent to one of the "rubber rooms" - all the while getting paid to do nothing!

Posted by: wooga at March 01, 2011 03:54 PM (2p0e3)

25 if this poll showed Obama at 31% you would all cream your pants. Walker is going to lose his next election because he is trying to stick it to working families and teachers. All so he doesn't have to raise taxes on the Koch brothers.

Posted by: John Keller at March 01, 2011 03:54 PM (Efto1)

26 ***I'll take $180k to teach kids for 3/4ths of a year. That sounds like a pretty sweet gig.

Screw busting my ass as a lawyer for 60 hours a week for a lot less money...***

I don't have a lot of sympathy for people who've entered law school within the last 10 years knowing that 60 hour weeks for about $60K if you're lucky.

But that makes me realize...that dingbat teacher union thug said that unions prevent us from working more than 40 hours a week and only a 5 day work week.

Posted by: joeindc44 at March 01, 2011 03:55 PM (QxSug)

27
How much do teachers get paid for fucking and sucking their students?

Or is it that just another teacher's union perk?

Posted by: soothsayer says mooooo at March 01, 2011 03:55 PM (uFokq)

28 OT: Reid: Senate will pass short-term CR

If so, he gets two weeks to consider the full proposal.

Posted by: Miss'80sBaby at March 01, 2011 03:55 PM (q8u+l)

29 Those polls are pure bullshit....
They polled 1009 fuckers.
1009 fuckers who probably don't know what they fuck they were saying yes or no too.
Of course the lame stream media will hold it up as the gospel. I can find 1009 fuckers who say that Obama is gay. I can find 1009 fuckers who say that Obama is a Muslim. BFD.

Posted by: izoneguy at March 01, 2011 03:56 PM (83mM1)

30 Posted by: John Keller at March 01, 2011 03:54 PM (Efto1)
Shouldn't you be waiting, patiently, besides a hole bored in the stallof a Public Restroom?

Posted by: garrett at March 01, 2011 03:56 PM (9Mf58)

31 25 if this poll showed Obama at 31% you would all cream your pants. Walker is going to lose his next election because he is trying to stick it to working families and teachers. All so he doesn't have to raise taxes on the Koch brothers.
Posted by: John Keller at March 01, 2011 03:54 PM (Efto1)
---------------
ummm. No. We would be a bit realistic about it. We dissect polls quite well here. If they have a sample ratio the makes R and D equal and he gets 31, then I cream

Posted by: Flapjackmaka at March 01, 2011 03:56 PM (c5RQr)

32 1. Ask: "Do you support the unions"?2. If they say "yes," demand they fork over $100. For the union.3. If they say "no," have some muscle from the local beat the living shit out of them.4. If they still support the union, now it's from an informed position.
Posted by: iowahawk

Sorry, this is a little too subtle for my understanding. Speak plainly man!

Posted by: Blue Hen at March 01, 2011 03:56 PM (R2fpr)

33 I think the trolls are scared.

Posted by: blue star at March 01, 2011 03:56 PM (4OCrT)

34 If Apple made you, you'd be the iHawk
Then he'd be a douchebag hipster liberal. I'd rather iowahawk.

Posted by: Empire of Jeff at March 01, 2011 03:57 PM (lGFXF)

35 That's right. I forgot, and John Keller made me realize it. Teachers are workers. Teachers are workers that, until 1952 when JFK allowed PSU's (or whatever), were working in harsh conditions 100 hours a week for pennies.

oh wait, that's tax payers now, holding the burden to pay for the politically connected crony class having a shit-fit in Madison.

Posted by: joeindc44 at March 01, 2011 03:57 PM (QxSug)

36 31% - wasn't that about what Obamacare was polling at when they rammed that bitch thru?

Posted by: Roy at March 01, 2011 03:57 PM (VndSC)

37 dang it. I forgot Wisconsin was in the central time zone. Damned spherical earth

Posted by: Ben at March 01, 2011 03:57 PM (wuv1c)

38 28 OT: Reid: Senate will pass short-term CR

Are they going to do this shit every two weeks until we can vote Obama's ass out of office???

Posted by: izoneguy at March 01, 2011 03:57 PM (83mM1)

39 The last election, all the way back in Nov had Rep 52% and Dem 47%. This poll has Rep 22% and Dem 31%.

Not to mention that the second question shows 44% normally side with unions as a matter of instinct.

This poll doesn't tell you anything.

Posted by: Gambler at March 01, 2011 03:57 PM (FUA3o)

40 Actually, the question was pretty straight forward:

PEW. 4 From what you’ve read and heard about the dispute between Wisconsin’s governor and public employee unions over collective bargaining rights, do you side more with [READ AND RANDOMIZE]?Feb 24-27201131 The governor42 The public employee unions9 Neither (VOL.)18 Don’t know/Refused (VOL.)

Posted by: DrewM. at March 01, 2011 03:57 PM (HicGG)

41 25 if this poll showed Obama at 31% you would all cream your pants. Walker is going to lose his next election because he is trying to stick it to working families and teachers. All so he doesn't have to raise taxes on the Koch brothers.

What an asshole. Those 14 state senators are going to have to turn to prostitution after they lose. Oh wait! They already are prostitutes....

Posted by: izoneguy at March 01, 2011 03:59 PM (83mM1)

42 Here are the key words in the polling questions that will always tilt the results against Walker and the Republicans.

"Stripping away" or "taking away" or any other words that denote dispossessing someone of something that is theirs.

"Rights" as in collective bargaining rights, is a word that denotes something that must be retained, no matter what, because it might be in the Constitution, or something.

So when a CBS poll says, as one just did, that over 60 percent of those polled were not in favor of workers being stripped of their collective bargaining rights, ya gotta wonder what that really means.

The Wall Street Journal has a piece today that fully fleshes out what collective bargaining really means. They've run pieces also, that describe who actually negotiates with whom, when public employee unions go to the table, and what the results are for the taxpayers.

But who is reading? No one that needs to be educated. No one.

This is, by far, the most meaningful battle of our time. I hope we win.

Posted by: Bitter Clinger at March 01, 2011 03:59 PM (4sQwu)

43 Walker is going to lose his next election

Well, I guess we'll all be really worried about this... three years from now.

Posted by: Y-not at March 01, 2011 03:59 PM (pW2o8)

44 if this poll showed Obama at 31% you would all cream your pants. Walker is going to lose his next election because he is trying to stick it to working families and teachers. All so he doesn't have to raise taxes on the Koch brothers.
Posted by: John Keller

I'm a moron. I don't need poll results to achieve that.

P.S. What in Hell do you care about elections dumbass? There was one in Wisconsin, and the Dems ran away from the results of it. So you don't care about the results of the election in 2010, and yet you are having a premature-election frenzy over the perceived backlash at this guy doing his job?

Posted by: Blue Hen at March 01, 2011 03:59 PM (R2fpr)

45 Yahoo loves this poll taken by some hack that says Walker would lose re-election:

Wisconsin voters express buyer’s remorse over Gov.
Scott Walker

Posted by: Miss'80sBaby at March 01, 2011 04:00 PM (q8u+l)

46 @17 just got back from vacation.

Note to pollsters: there is no such thing as "collective bargaining rights." It's a verbal hallucination, and you're adopting it.

Here's how you should seed the question: "that morbidly obese clerk at the DMV makes $80,000 per year plus free health care plus no cost pension, and can retire at 52 years old at 80% salary, with cost of living increases, for the rest of their life for doing even less than they do right now, if you can even imagine it. Thanks to the union. And guess what, fuckhead? You are paying for it."

Posted by: iowahawk at March 01, 2011 04:00 PM (veL4N)

47 What Drew said. The questions are loaded to give the answer the buyer of the poll wanted.

Posted by: CUS at March 01, 2011 04:00 PM (wOGfT)

48 Sure teachers should make more than 88K a year. When they abandon their union, and their seniority only pay system, adopt and experience and performance based system, and actually start make it attractive for professionals with real world experience to join the profession.

Instead of giving said professional a huge cut in pay, and expecting them to start at the very bottom and build up time seniority while a kid that never left the academic vajayjay already has senior status and virtually no idea how what they teach might actually be applied.

Posted by: MikeTheMoose at March 01, 2011 04:01 PM (0q2P7)

49
When do you reckon the push for unionizing the armed forces will commence?

You don't think it's coming? Think again.

Posted by: soothsayer says mooooo at March 01, 2011 04:01 PM (uFokq)

50 comcast's default webpage has an list of the 12 lowest paying states for teachers.
I think the lowest is 44,000. Obviously they are leaving out the cost of benefits which range from 10-30 thousand.

Think about that 44 thousand dollars for working 9 months of the year. They are making the per capita average income and only working 75% of the year

Posted by: Ben at March 01, 2011 04:01 PM (wuv1c)

51 I stand by my sorrowful prediction that T'Paw will be the consensus candidate in 2012: Pawlenty of Tea By Robert Costa

Posted by: toby928™ at March 01, 2011 04:01 PM (GTbGH)

52 That 89K average salary doesn't sound right to me. See:
http://tinyurl.com/5tg7puk

Average 2009 salary was 48K. If their retirement and insurance adds more than 25K I would be shocked.

Posted by: skinbad at March 01, 2011 04:01 PM (gqqPi)

53 25 if this poll showed Obama at 31% you would all cream your pants. Walker is going to lose his next election because he is trying to stick it to working families and teachers. All so he doesn't have to raise taxes on the Koch brothers.

Interesting. You separate those who WORK from those who TEACH.

Posted by: Empire of Jeff at March 01, 2011 04:01 PM (lGFXF)

54 You want a silly poll

Two months into his first term, a new poll shows Wisconsin votersare unhappy with GOP Gov. Scott Walker--and would send him packing if they were given a do-over of the 2010 election that sent him to the statehouse in Madison.
Amid the firestorm Walker touched off in going after the state's public-sector unions, voters indicated to Public Policy Pollingthat Walker would lose a rematch with his Democratic opponent, Milwaukee mayor Tom Barrett, if the election were held today. Fifty-two percent of respondents said that today they would vote for Barrett and 45 percent said they would vote for Walker. Walker's job approval/disapproval was also 46 to 52 percent in the poll. PPP is considered to be a Democratic-allied firm.

And yet Yahoo is passing this off as a news story that Walker is in trouble

Posted by: TheQuietMan at March 01, 2011 04:01 PM (1Jaio)

55 The Poll Lies ! The Poll Lies ! Kay everyone now in unison just like we did in class but really extra loud. Very good now look at the cameras and repeat until we tell you to stop.

Posted by: melvin at March 01, 2011 04:02 PM (3OCZw)

56 Do you support the goverment taking away workers rights?

Posted by: Ben (MSM Pollster) at March 01, 2011 04:02 PM (wuv1c)

57 The question must always be framed as a choice to be meaningful.

Which would you prefer, money back on April 15th or higher wages for Union employees?

Which would you prefer, a job, or collective bargaining for teachers?

Posted by: pep at March 01, 2011 04:02 PM (GMG6W)

58 hit particularly hard by his paycheck being withheld

Living paycheck to paycheck like the little people? The survey I would like to see is what is the breakdown of liberals vs conservatives with regard to how much rainy day savings are kept in reserve.

Posted by: Bieber must die, for Cthulhu at March 01, 2011 04:03 PM (F/4zf)

59 What percentage of WI teachers send their kids to private schools ??

Posted by: melvin at March 01, 2011 04:03 PM (3OCZw)

60 Nice observations Ace. This is the second day in a row we've had a post full of insight. Must have been good hobo hunting this weekend.
Truth is polls lie because people lie to pollsters and to themselves.

Posted by: JollyRoger at March 01, 2011 04:03 PM (NCw5u)

61 Posted by: iowahawk at March 01, 2011 04:00 PM (veL4N)
T-Shirts with last night's Tweet Pic should suffice.

Posted by: garrett at March 01, 2011 04:03 PM (9Mf58)

62 Walker is going to lose his next election because he is trying to stick it to working families and teachers.

So, I guess the unions and teachers are trying to stick it to who, exactly?

That's right-- us, the taxpayers, the voters.

Walker's on the side of the majority, not the fleabag hippie capitol-floor-sleeping violence-threatening union shits.

Posted by: nickless at March 01, 2011 04:03 PM (MMC8r)

63 Here's a question I'd like to see:

How much money do you think public school teachers make in your local district?

Posted by: iowahawk at March 01, 2011 04:04 PM (veL4N)

64 Poll Lies ! The Poll Lies ! Kay everyone now in unison just like we did in class but really extra loud. Very good now look at the cameras and repeat until we tell you to stop.
Oh man, we won. This is great. The Public unions are fair game now. The third rail is no longer the third rail.
Walker is going to win, then Kasich, then...well it could go on through all 50 states.
Oh it feels so good. I hope that poll keeps you warm at night while the public unions are slowly gutted to irrelevance.

Posted by: Ben (MSM Pollster) at March 01, 2011 04:04 PM (wuv1c)

65 Here's how you should seed the question: "that morbidly obese clerk at the DMV makes $80,000 per year plus free health care plus no cost pension, and can retire at 52 years old at 80% salary, with cost of living increases, for the rest of their life for doing even less than they do right now, if you can even imagine it. Thanks to the union. And guess what, fuckhead? You are paying for it."
Posted by: iowahawk

And this is the part of the show where we all make bets on whether our new troll John Keller lost his health insurance to Obamacare, or does he still have a way of staunching the arterial bleeding?

Posted by: Blue Hen at March 01, 2011 04:04 PM (R2fpr)

66
Pawlenty is a cute mofo.

He's watching Mitch Daniels screw up and learning from it. T-Paw is saying all the right things, at the moment.

His plan is to pander and to massage the base for the nomination. And it just might work.

Posted by: soothsayer says mooooo at March 01, 2011 04:05 PM (uFokq)

67 working familes
Last time I checked that's everyone except douchenozzle Hollywood types and the Kennedys.
Try again.

Posted by: Circa (Insert Year Here) at March 01, 2011 04:05 PM (B+qrE)

68 Regardless of the polls, this is an issue that won't likely hurt any republicans at the next election.
Are there really a ton of undecided type voters out there who are going to base their vote on who was nicer to the public employee unions?
in contrast, if they are successful in passing the bill, they will be able to run in 2 years on the results achieved. The union will claim that the world ended, but most people will look around and realize the world did not end and will therefore ignore the unions.
I see this as win-win on all levels. It's a win b/c it is the right policy and good for state finance and gov't generally. It is also a win politically b/c it takes away some of the dems' slush fund by making unions a little less powerful and a little less lucrative.
I simply cannot imagine a scenario where the electorate in 2 years is "angry" about this bill if it gets passed. Or even remember this bill.

Posted by: monkeytoe at March 01, 2011 04:05 PM (sOx93)

69 Ask if the people being polled know what "Pension Spiking" is.

Posted by: Ben (MSM Pollster) at March 01, 2011 04:05 PM (wuv1c)

70 Here's how you should seed the question: "that morbidly obese clerk at the DMV makes $80,000 per year plus free health care plus no cost pension, and can retire at 52 years old at 80% salary, with cost of living increases, for the rest of their life for doing even less than they do right now, if you can even imagine it. Thanks to the union. And guess what, fuckhead? You are paying for it."
But, that's not a question. Well, the "guess what, fuckhead?" part is, but I thought it was more rhetorical.
Still, it might be a good thing to just call random Americans and hit them with it. Kind of like those robocalls I got three times a day from "Obama Health Care" on my callID.

Posted by: Empire of Jeff at March 01, 2011 04:05 PM (lGFXF)

71 Meanwhile, a poll is out that says 42% of the country support the unions and only 31% support Walter.

1000 Adults, taken over the weekend, and if they gave the political breakdown, I didn't see it.

Posted by: toby928™ at March 01, 2011 04:05 PM (GTbGH)

72 at first read i was surprised at the teacher bashing in this thread, but after thinking about it for just a few minutes i realized that the only way republican party is ever going to grow while spouting all the nonsense, is to make sure that everyone stays as uneducated and ignorant as they are. oh, yeah except for all the brilliant lawyers and other professionals on this thread who apparently taught themselves everything they know, sans teachers.

Posted by: liberal loon at March 01, 2011 04:05 PM (Xdi9w)

73 Polls always remind of a saying attributed to John von Neumann:

with four parameters I can (curve)fit an elephant, and with five I can make him wiggle his trunk

used most often to (correctly) disparage AGW 'calculations', but equally useful as pertains to the same sort of numerical mendacity, by different means, that so many polls epitomize.

Posted by: chuckR at March 01, 2011 04:06 PM (XLu7l)

74 This looks like a pole of adults, not even registered or likely voters.

Posted by: MikeTheMoose at March 01, 2011 04:06 PM (0q2P7)

75 It doesn't matter if the poll "lies" or not. If the citizens of Wisconsin want to recall their governor, they're free to do so. Until then, Walker is governor until 2015, so choke on it.

What I find fascinating is that the beloved teachers are so confident in their support from the Badger state that they had to import protesters, hide their legislators, and get ginned up talking points from the White House spread across the airwaves. And even with Organizing for America and MSM beating the drums, the "progressives" scored a whopping 500-1,000 people to protest in Washington, D.C. Impressive stuff.

Posted by: Y-not at March 01, 2011 04:06 PM (pW2o8)

76 Walker is going to lose his next election because he is trying to stick it to working families and teachers.
Let's see your logic
10-15% of Wisconsinites are union therefore working families
85-90% of Wisconsinites are therefore Rich Fat Cats.

Posted by: Ben (MSM Pollster) at March 01, 2011 04:06 PM (wuv1c)

77 Here's a question I'd like to see:
Would you still pay for the cow if the milk wasn't free?

Posted by: garrett at March 01, 2011 04:07 PM (9Mf58)

78 "State Sen. Julie Lassa (D) is pregnant and “extremely unhappy” about being on the run"

I'm starting to wonder if being on the run with a pregnant Democrat isn't punishment enough.

Posted by: Phinn at March 01, 2011 04:07 PM (hSSfI)

79 38
28 Are they going to do this shit every two weeks until we can vote Obama's
ass out of office???

This is just for Reid to consider the full package CR. But yes, they could potentially do this every two weeks. A partial shutdown would mean making Obama justify spending for certain depts and being forced to make cuts. Failure to do so would result in loss of funding for that specific dept. Boehner seems like he's actually going to hold their feet to the fire here. But it's too early to say.

Posted by: Miss'80sBaby at March 01, 2011 04:07 PM (q8u+l)

80 at first read i was surprised at the teacher bashing in this thread, but after thinking about it for just a few minutes i realized that the only way republican party is ever going to grow while spouting all the nonsense, is to make sure that everyone stays as uneducated and ignorant as they are. oh, yeah except for all the brilliant lawyers and other professionals on this thread who apparently taught themselves everything they know, sans teachers.
When I went to school teachers didn't make 80-100K a year(benefits included) and I turned out well.
Me not fail engrish.

Posted by: Ben (MSM Pollster) at March 01, 2011 04:08 PM (wuv1c)

81 Okay,

I checked the thread. We all know ace fucked up the math on that example:

Rand Paul - $89,000 -
Letterman - twice that -
(ace) so, worth ... $188,000

-

right?

I'm the product of a public education system from elementary through university and I know that twice $89,000 is $289,000.

0

Posted by: BumperStickerist at March 01, 2011 04:08 PM (h6mPj)

82
$2B/week in cuts.

Does anyone know offhand how much we pay in interest per week for our debt?

Posted by: soothsayer says mooooo at March 01, 2011 04:09 PM (uFokq)

83 @72
You didn't know my teachers.
I went to private elementary school and the trig we were doing in the 6th grade was the same I was doing as a senior in high school. Not to mention the teachers at the private school made a fraction of thier public counterparts with no pension, and no job security. And they actually enjoyed what they were doing.
At public school, teachers were on cruise control, and no one gave a shit about helping kids.

Posted by: JollyRoger at March 01, 2011 04:10 PM (NCw5u)

84 47
What Drew said. The questions are loaded to give the answer the buyer
of the poll wanted.

Even Rasmussen is occasionally doing this now. I've noticed some of his questions are now 2-3 sentences long and quite detailed. But he's doing it in a good way in that he's helping the voters understand the true nature of the issue.

Posted by: Miss'80sBaby at March 01, 2011 04:10 PM (q8u+l)

85 at first read i was surprised at the teacher bashing in this thread, but after thinking about it for just a few minutes i realized that the only way republican party is ever going to grow while spouting all the nonsense, is to make sure that everyone stays as uneducated and ignorant as they are. oh, yeah except for all the brilliant lawyers and other professionals on this thread who apparently taught themselves everything they know, sans teachers.
With the moniker "liberal loon" I'm assuming this is a parody of a liberal's argument (or actually, not a parody as it is almost verbatim a liberal's argument - but such argument is inane and therefore a parody of itself). But, regardless, god help me, I can't help myself with responding to trolls, even if they are fake.
Ask everyone on this thread who built their own house, or grew their own food, or manufactured their own cars. That means what exactly?
And, what, if we limit public employee unions' power there will be no more teachers? Is that the implicit argument here?
And, if you are against public employee unions and their outsized power over gov't you are against the very concept of teaching or education? Is that the argument.

Posted by: monkeytoe at March 01, 2011 04:10 PM (sOx93)

86 I think the poll is mostly BS, but even if it's true, I wouldn't give a rat's ass. If the people are so against Walker, they'll vote him out the next time around. Right now he has a job to do, and he better damn well complete it.

Posted by: EmilyM. at March 01, 2011 04:10 PM (R03il)

87 oh, yeah except for all the brilliant lawyers and other professionals on this thread who apparently taught themselves everything they know, sans teachers.
Yes, mine taught me math. What's your excuse?

Posted by: Circa (Insert Year Here) at March 01, 2011 04:10 PM (B+qrE)

88 It's shame when even trolls have been outsourced. If only they had union protection.

Posted by: Penfold at March 01, 2011 04:10 PM (1PeEC)

89 Liberal loonXXX
DO YOU THINK THE ONLY WAY PEOPLE CAN LEARN IS FROM A TEACHER?

OR can they teach/learn on thier own?

Posted by: Jake_in_Idaho at March 01, 2011 04:10 PM (vrDK+)

90 All so he doesn't have to raise taxes on the Koch brothers.
They don't live in WI, idiot. I still want to know who is doing this sock, nobody can actually be that dumb.

Posted by: Guy Fawkes at March 01, 2011 04:10 PM (xdHzq)

91 Walker is going to lose his next election because he is trying to stick
it to working families and teachers bring government employees in line with private employees. All so he doesn't have to raise
taxes on the Koch brothers turn Wisconsin in to Michigan III.
See so simple to use your brain.

Posted by: MikeTheMoose at March 01, 2011 04:11 PM (0q2P7)

92 I'm the product of a public education system from elementary through university and I know that twice $89,000 is $289,000.
Now, that's what I callusing your moral ___ination.

Posted by: Barack Obama - Mathematician Extraordinaire! at March 01, 2011 04:11 PM (9Mf58)

93 $2B/week in cuts.

Does anyone know offhand how much we pay in interest per week for our debt?

Posted by: soothsayer says mooooo at March 01, 2011 04:09 PM (uFokq)
I thought Boner said he wasn't interested in doing that drug out shit.

Posted by: Vic at March 01, 2011 04:11 PM (M9Ie6)

94 so, what about private school teachers? They make less and their students have higher grades. Do we republicans hate them?

Posted by: joeindc44 at March 01, 2011 04:12 PM (QxSug)

95 I still want to know who is doing this sock

Yeah he popped up right after my weaksauce attempt at El Savadorian Nuns.

Posted by: MikeTheMoose at March 01, 2011 04:12 PM (0q2P7)

96 So basically the teachers union does not believe that the state is $ 180 million in debt and thinks that Walker is lying about it and hiding the money in his freezer at home.

Posted by: melvin at March 01, 2011 04:12 PM (3OCZw)

97 Here's why we're fucked. My kid's 2nd grade teacher made over $115k in 2010:

http://bit.ly/eOb3Yo

That's just the 9 month salary. By district standards, she makes approximately 40% extra in pension health benefits, so tack on another $46k per year for her cost to the district. Over $160,000 per year for a glorified daycare worker. And when she retires, she will make over $90k per year for not even doing that.

"Teachers are underpaid"? Go fuck yourself.

Posted by: iowahawk at March 01, 2011 04:12 PM (veL4N)

98 the poll is an outlier and coming from a poll organization not known for it's accuraccy; Rasmussen and Gallup both say differently w/ a majority backing the Governor, it's kinda split in Wisconsin but it's leaning towards the Governor. The only thing to worry about is that it seems most clowns suppirt "collective bargaining 'rights'"
btw I love the mention of the pregnant Dem tool, will she explain to her soon to be born child whymommy approved of adding more debtfor her to pay, why mommy supports killing her if she wanted her gone (i'm assuming she might be a pro-life Dem but I doubt it) and why mommy ran away like a coward?
PS: Allah posted this poll on Tepid Air as CAC calls it, and the trolls are running down the weak commenters there; I wish they'd come over here and learn a lesson from us morons

Posted by: YRM (Rarest Ace Commenter, Most Common Ace Reader) at March 01, 2011 04:13 PM (UzBwz)

99 1000 Adults, taken over the weekend, and if they gave the political breakdown, I didn't see it.
It was on one of the other pages, 248 Republicans, 290 Democrats, 397 Independents, but they don't break it down any more than that. Here's an interesting little factoid though:
Respondents in the landline sample were selected by randomly asking for the youngest adult male or female who is now at home. Interviews in the cell sample were conducted with the person who answered the phone, if that person was an adult 18 years of age or older.
Apparently they were looking for the youngest people they could find.

Posted by: Ghost of Lee Atwater at March 01, 2011 04:13 PM (JxMoP)

100 I don't think it's spin at all. In fact, I've long thought this is one of the inherent problems with our more complex democracy and we Dems have a built in advantage.

Dems are all about giving shit away and pleasing various constituent groups with freebies and happy promises, Hope and Change. And it sells with people who don't want to be bothered with the messy details of our ever increasingly complex world.

Conservative values sound more harsh because they reflect reality. There are no unicorns and there are no free lunches. Personal responsibility, sacrifice and equality of opportunity not outcome don't sell as well to the average yuts as "Here's your free cookie".

Posted by: JackStraw at March 01, 2011 04:13 PM (TMB3S)

101 OK, Malkin has a link showing Milwaukee teachers average 56K in salary with 43K in benefits. The salary seems reasonable. The benefits are outlandish.

Posted by: skinbad at March 01, 2011 04:14 PM (gqqPi)

102 Just start telling lefties that Scott Walker is just following the policies of right-wing public-union-buster FDR.

Posted by: nickless at March 01, 2011 04:14 PM (MMC8r)

103
Even Debra Lafave is complaining about not making as much money hooking as when she worked as a teacher.

Posted by: Fish the Impaler at March 01, 2011 04:15 PM (ZHsNw)

104 and here's a little teacher math (for those who insist we make too much). how about we all get out of the teacher business and "teaching them out of a manual" and just babysit your little snowflakes. Lets see, I'll do it for $2 an hour (fair rate?), 30 kids (lots of classes are bigger, but we'll take that number) and assume its only 6 hours a day, 270 days a year (3/4). anybody care to do the math on that? oh wait, that over $97,000. that twice what i make now, plus I don't have to "teach out of a manual".

Posted by: liberal loon at March 01, 2011 04:15 PM (Xdi9w)

105 Mike the Moose,
That got me thinking of another way to frame the question: do you think public employees should make just as much as employees in the private sector?
Or, Do you support equal pay forboth public and private sector employees?

Guaran-fucking-teed that the answer is overwhelmingly yes.

Posted by: Empire of Jeff at March 01, 2011 04:15 PM (lGFXF)

106 The only thing to worry about is that it seems most clowns suppirt "collective bargaining 'rights'"
Which the Governor is not proposing to do over salary. At all.

Posted by: Circa (Insert Year Here) at March 01, 2011 04:15 PM (B+qrE)

107 the troll doesn't understand the concept of being against overpaid public sector union thugs (i.e., government employees...you know the opposite of "We the People") and being "against teachers."

What the fuck? I mean, is this really persuasive?

And again, I refer you to the left wing talking point of about 5 years ago where the DINKS were complaining about being forced to subsidize other people's kids.

Do teachers get fucking immaculated the first day they walk into school to teach?

Posted by: joeindc44 at March 01, 2011 04:15 PM (QxSug)

108 Even Debra Lafave is complaining about not making as much money hooking as a movie star as when she worked as a teacher.

Posted by: Jake_in_Idaho at March 01, 2011 04:16 PM (vrDK+)

109 at first read i was surprised at the teacher bashing in this thread, but after thinking about it for just a few minutes i realized that the only way republican party is ever going to grow while spouting all the nonsense, is to make sure that everyone stays as uneducated and ignorant as they are.
our education system has gone down the drain w/ the liberal policies of no free market schools and making it hard to fire teachers, less uneducated has lead to more debt and welfare dolt
I learned everything myself, Teachers only taught me what? basic math that's
oh, yeah except for all the brilliant lawyers and other professionals on this thread who apparently taught themselves everything they know, sans teachers.
really useless? as long as polls are being traughted out, a poll recently shoed more people felt they learned more out of school then in school

Posted by: YRM (Rarest Ace Commenter, Most Common Ace Reader) at March 01, 2011 04:17 PM (UzBwz)

110 All so he doesn't have to raise taxes on the Koch brothers.
We need to stop those right wing Kocks who want gays to get married, legalization of all drugs, repeal the patriot act.....wait.

Posted by: Ben (MSM Pollster) at March 01, 2011 04:17 PM (wuv1c)

111 95

Its me, I saw that attempt and thought I could do better.

Posted by: Mr Pink at March 01, 2011 04:17 PM (Efto1)

112 Respondents in the landline sample were selected by randomly asking
for the youngest adult male or female who is now at home. Interviews in
the cell sample were conducted with the person who answered the phone,
if that person was an adult 18 years of age or older.
Apparently they were looking for the youngest people they could find.

Bing bing bing. I wonder how that demographic breaks on these sorts of issues?

Posted by: MikeTheMoose at March 01, 2011 04:17 PM (0q2P7)

113
oh shit the stupid babysitting example

gimme a break, dildo

Posted by: soothsayer says mooooo at March 01, 2011 04:18 PM (uFokq)

114 In order of stupidity, malevolence, bullshit, severity:
1. Lies
2. Damned Lies
3. Statistics
4. Pew PoliticalPolls

Posted by: BackwardsBoy at March 01, 2011 04:18 PM (b6qrg)

115 a couple of clarifying points-

when you factor in in-service days and continuing ed credits teachers work more than 3/4s of the year. Maybe, like 4/5ths.

They're also responsible for the physical safety of 25-30 children

Plus they have to meet all the guidelines of state and federal, local school board, and they do this while having to spend a boat load of time with students.

...

eh, fuck that. Arnold Schwarzenegger proved in "Kindergarten Cop" that a teacher's credential is over-valued.

Posted by: BumperStickerist at March 01, 2011 04:18 PM (h6mPj)

116 I mean, come on, reject the premise. Trolls only come on here to voice their vituperative, lefty hate.

The premise this month is that teacher are oh so holy. And that they're workers. Like a coal miner or something.

If they think they're worth $140K (that pension is the killer), then let them compete for it.

This is the danger of the politically connected crony class. Public sector jobs are supposed to suck so actual tax payers will suck it up and go to work and pay taxes.

Posted by: joeindc44 at March 01, 2011 04:18 PM (QxSug)

117
DO YOU THINK THE ONLY WAY PEOPLE CAN LEARN IS FROM A TEACHER?

OR can they teach/learn on thier own?
Only way, of course not - predominate way - absolutely (and anyone with a professional degree - yes) also, I hope your English Teacher isn't reading this - she would would likely insist that you spell "their" correctly.

Posted by: liberal loon at March 01, 2011 04:19 PM (Xdi9w)

118 why are union thugs posing as teachers anti-American?

Posted by: joeindc44 at March 01, 2011 04:19 PM (QxSug)

119
and you know what, union teacher parasite?

EVEN AT BABYSITTING YOU SUCK.

Posted by: soothsayer says mooooo at March 01, 2011 04:19 PM (uFokq)

120 @104 You'd probably make even more charging people to stay away from their kids.

Posted by: iowahawk at March 01, 2011 04:19 PM (veL4N)

121 John Keller at March 01, 2011 03:54 PM (Efto1)
Walker was elected on a platform to do exactly what he is doing.

Posted by: Speller at March 01, 2011 04:19 PM (J74Py)

122 104 and here's a little teacher math (for those who insist we make too much). how about we all get out of the teacher business and "teaching them out of a manual" and just babysit your little snowflakes. Lets see, I'll do it for $2 an hour (fair rate?), 30 kids (lots of classes are bigger, but we'll take that number) and assume its only 6 hours a day, 270 days a year (3/4). anybody care to do the math on that? oh wait, that over $97,000. that twice what i make now, plus I don't have to "teach out of a manual".
Here is a little non-tenured employeemath. End public education and the taxes associated with it and let me purchase my own kids education like I purchase my own milk, bread and beer

Posted by: Jake_in_Idaho at March 01, 2011 04:20 PM (vrDK+)

123 liberal loon,
So you make $48,500 per year, for less than nine months of work and you're bitching? YOU HAVE A PART-TIME JOB, ASSHOLE.
If you don't like the pay, enter a more remunerative field, shit-for-brains. And no, I don't want you teaching my little snowflakes. That's why my snowflakes go to private school - to be kept away from shitty examples like yourself.

Posted by: Empire of Jeff at March 01, 2011 04:20 PM (lGFXF)

124 and here's a little teacher math (for those who insist we make too much). how about we all get out of the teacher business and "teaching them out of a manual" and just babysit your little snowflakes. Lets see, I'll do it for $2 an hour (fair rate?), 30 kids (lots of classes are bigger, but we'll take that number) and assume its only 6 hours a day, 270 days a year (3/4). anybody care to do the math on that? oh wait, that over $97,000. that twice what i make now, plus I don't have to "teach out of a manual".
When you say "twice what you make now", are you refering to your salary or salary and benefits?

Posted by: Ben (MSM Pollster) at March 01, 2011 04:20 PM (wuv1c)

125 @104
Oh, that explains it.

Posted by: JollyRoger at March 01, 2011 04:20 PM (NCw5u)

126 I went to public schools. From grade 4 onwards I went to a progressive public school system that was using something called "open education" theory. Weird stuff like no letter grades, no tracking based on ability, and no walls. Worse stuff like "values clarification," life-boat exercises (who would you toss from the life boat, Johnny?), and research projects conducted by Johns Hopkins without parental permission.

I learned because my parents instilled in me the importance of learning and I had good study habits. Classes were more important than social activities.

I had a couple of very good teachers over the years, in particular one literature teacher who could easily have been teaching at any university in the country. Truly a talented and brilliant man. I'm sure he was never promoted to administration or paid more than the lousy teachers I had.

But unfortunately more often than not my teachers used their classrooms as bully pulpits to push their political and social agendas on their captive audiences. I remember the cheers and hoots going up when Agnew resigned, for example.

Unfortunately, as in most professions, there really is no special calling any more that motivates most teachers. The idea that they are anything other than employees - and well compensated ones at that - is really outmoded. I'm surprised by how trapped in the past most "progressives" are. They really need to get with the program.

Posted by: Y-not at March 01, 2011 04:20 PM (pW2o8)

127 If You Can Read This - Thank a Teacher
If You're Reading This in English - Thank a Soldier.
-

Posted by: BumperStickerist at March 01, 2011 04:21 PM (h6mPj)

128 So, people who home-school and are against the union thug politically connected crony class are anti-teacher? While they're teaching their kids?

What about your kids test scores, oh so holy teacher? What about performance evaluations?

Posted by: joeindc44 at March 01, 2011 04:21 PM (QxSug)

129
You know what teachers like you are really worth?

Seriously, do you want to get paid at your *real* rate of value?

You'd be making minimum wage.

Posted by: soothsayer says mooooo at March 01, 2011 04:21 PM (uFokq)

130 and here's a little teacher math (for those who insist we make too much). how about we all get out of the teacher business and "teaching them out of a manual" and just babysit your little snowflakes. Lets see, I'll do it for $2 an hour (fair rate?), 30 kids (lots of classes are bigger, but we'll take that number) and assume its only 6 hours a day, 270 days a year (3/4). anybody care to do the math on that? oh wait, that over $97,000. that twice what i make now, plus I don't have to "teach out of a manual".
the reg average teacher in Wisconsin makes almost 200,000 the regular average private sector employee makes 38,000 in Wisconsin, that is the issue. Those private sector employees pay towards healthcare and pensions if available, the public sector (illegal until the 60s btw) pay into what? 1%-6%? wtf is that, the Gov is asking for a mere payment of 5%-12% into their plans, the state covers the rest; sounds like a good deal to me. meanwhile the state covers it by taking money from the folks who pay 100% for their benefits and in turn pay to help the public sector have it's benefits. by doing what the Governor asks, the state saves 300 million; seems your more focused on keeping that Govt Crack while the state debt crisis along w/ the national debt crisis keeps getting bigger and bigger as we head towards default.
save me your pity party

Posted by: YRM (Rarest Ace Commenter, Most Common Ace Reader) at March 01, 2011 04:21 PM (UzBwz)

131 63 Here's a question I'd like to see:How much money do you think public school teachers make in your local district?
Posted by: iowahawk at March 01, 2011 04:04 PM (veL4N)
LOL... here mine..
1. Sir/Madam, how much do you make a year?
2. Sir/Madam, ad median family income in the US is $46,326 a year, so do you think YOUR taxes should be raised so Teachers, who NOW make $49,720 forworking 9 months a year (not including benefits)can make more than that?

Posted by: Romeo13 at March 01, 2011 04:22 PM (NtXW4)

132 Speaking of which, hey loon, shouldn't you be watching some snowflakes right now?
I didn't say it was a great job, but thats why I'm not doing it.

Posted by: JollyRoger at March 01, 2011 04:22 PM (NCw5u)

133 teachers make $89,000 per year (or three-quarters year, I should say)
David Letterman wasted no time in offering the clapper answer "And they
should make twice that!!"
Ah, no Dave you have it backwards, you should make half of what teachers make. Just because you feel guilty for your ridiculous pay check in comparison with teachers, doesn't mean the tax payers should foot the bill for your showbiz tainted, detached from reality, dogshit opinion.

And the next time you feel like offering your unsolicited feces on nuts and bolts policy, just take a deep breath and STFU.

Posted by: ontherocks at March 01, 2011 04:22 PM (HBqDo)

134 If you're protesting while getting paid, thank a tax payer.

Why are union thug teachers anti-tax payer?

Posted by: joeindc44 at March 01, 2011 04:23 PM (QxSug)

135 73
Polls always remind of a saying attributed to John von Neumann:with four parameters I can (curve)fit an elephant, and with five I can make him wiggle his trunk

"Economics is the science of finding a best-fit straight line through a single data point." -- AmishDude

Posted by: AmishDude at March 01, 2011 04:23 PM (T0NGe)

136 Posted by: soothsayer says mooooo at March 01, 2011 04:01 PM (uFokq)

Isn't that what a Command Sergeant-Major is for?

Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo (NJConservative) at March 01, 2011 04:24 PM (LH6ir)

137 yeah, the next poll should ask, how much do you think teachers make?
would you support teachers if they're making over $140K with bennies and only working 9 months a year?
Or ask, do you support union dues being used in political donations?

Posted by: joeindc44 at March 01, 2011 04:24 PM (QxSug)

138 My father was a jr math science teacher. When I graduated HS submitted forms for scholarships I realized that he was making about $300 per year above an income that would have let us get food stamps (back when food stamps went only to poor people). I have some sympathy for teachers, very little for unions. Unions cannot do for teachers what they did for steel auto workers (putting them out of business) but they can generate a backlash that puts today's teachers back to the salary my dad had.

Posted by: PMike at March 01, 2011 04:24 PM (R9qZf)

139 117 Only way, of course not - predominate way - absolutely (and anyone with a professional degree - yes) also, I hope your English Teacher isn't reading this - she would would likely insist that you spell "their" correctly.

Everyone knows I can't be spellin for sh*T, my English teacher would probably pay me $5 for blooding your nose though.
I'm from rural Idaho, things are better here

Posted by: Jake_in_Idaho at March 01, 2011 04:24 PM (vrDK+)

140 Going along with the "Baby Sitter" analogy -

Sure, I'm up for that.

But I get to fire your ass if you screw up.

So, starting with $188,000 as a baseline.

How much is the prospect of tenure worth to you?
Let's deduct that from your baseline.

We can then start in on all the other perks that go along with the job.

.But let's start with that tenure thing

Posted by: BumperStickerist at March 01, 2011 04:24 PM (h6mPj)

141 Why are union thug teachers anti-tax payer?
Cuz they ain't no taxpayer union, so youze guys is scabs!

Posted by: Union Thugs at March 01, 2011 04:24 PM (c45xH)

142 Eleven points is a lot to spin. I think people are just plain stupid and we're generally fucked.

Posted by: arhooley at March 01, 2011 04:24 PM (6MQ4B)

143
if this poll showed Obama at 31% you would all cream your pants. Walker
is going to lose his next election because he is trying to stick it to
working families and teachers. All so he doesn't have to raise taxes on
the Koch brothers.

That's the kind of retarded shit you losers try over and over again. We don't buy it. How can 10% of the population of Wisconsin = Working Families and Teachers? It is telling that you delineate between the two, though. 90% of Wisconsin residents are livin' high off that sweet Koch stash? Get the fuck outta here.

Posted by: Naughty, naughty Zoot at March 01, 2011 04:24 PM (IB7Vu)

144 Look Liberal Loon, I don't think anyone here hates teachers.

It's just that you're compensated and have a legal corruption racket going on with state governments.
It's coming to an end. It was sweet while it lasted, but we simply can't afford it anymore.
The people aren't willing to pay any more in taxes. You can complain all you want, but most people are sick of income and ever increasing property taxes for the diminishing returns we've been seeing.
I understand that there are a lot of shitty kids out there and worse parents. However, in terms of wages and benefits, you are making out very well for yourself considering you work 9 months of the year.
The simply fact remains that there are millions and millions of americans working a lot harder jobs, year round, that make less in wages and benefits than you do.

Posted by: Ben (MSM Pollster) at March 01, 2011 04:26 PM (wuv1c)

145 and here's a little teacher math (for those who insist we make too much).<blah blah blah>
What you've just described sounds an awful lot like daycare, except daycare workers only make about half of what you make, they work 12 months out of the year, and typically they don't get retirement or health benefits.

Posted by: Ghost of Lee Atwater at March 01, 2011 04:26 PM (JxMoP)

146 I'll do it for $2 an hour (fair rate?)
Sure let's look at it from the cost perspective and ignore all differences in the job.

If you are going to do it from the cost perspective.
$10K we pay a year per student on average to educate.
$6K a year is average baby sitting for an infant.

I hereby acknowledge the genius of your suggestion and advocate that we cut public education funding by 40%.

You f*ing figure out where it comes out.

Posted by: MikeTheMoose at March 01, 2011 04:26 PM (0q2P7)

147 this is good stuff, we should get that guy who did the documentary and polling for the election of obama on it. You know, the guy who beats down MSNBC.

Posted by: joeindc44 at March 01, 2011 04:26 PM (QxSug)

148 Here's a question I'd like to see:How much money do you think public school teachers make in your local district?
Posted by: iowahawk at March 01, 2011 04:04 PM (veL4N)
I don't know about the district, but in my state, they make about $45,000 (on average). And it seems like there's always a new levy to vote on because the schools need more money.

Posted by: EmilyM. at March 01, 2011 04:26 PM (R03il)

149 a couple of clarifying points- when you factor in in-service days and continuing ed credits teachers work more than 3/4s of the year. Maybe, like 4/5ths. They're also responsible for the physical safety of 25-30 children Plus they have to meet all the guidelines of state and federal, local school board, and they do this while having to spend a boat load of time with students.
O-1s in the US military are responsible for the safety of 40 adults. They get a total of 30 days off per year. They get shot at. They have to develop themselves according to the "guidelines" of their profession.
They make 40K a year.
Yet they do it as a choice.
So do you. If you went into teaching for the money, you're doing it wrong.

Posted by: Circa (Insert Year Here) at March 01, 2011 04:26 PM (B+qrE)

150 Was this poll taken from the people of Wi. or from the American public at large?

WHY DOES IT MATTER WHAT AMERICA THINKS? Last I heard, Wisconsin is a State and answers to the political will of WISCONSIN, not the U.S.

Posted by: PMike at March 01, 2011 04:28 PM (R9qZf)

151 Also, is there any profession in the world where you can get tenure after working for 3 years?

Posted by: Ben (MSM Pollster) at March 01, 2011 04:29 PM (wuv1c)

152 if this poll showed Obama at 31% you would all cream your pants. Walker is going to lose his next election because he is trying to stick it to working families and teachers. All so he doesn't have to raise taxes on the Koch brothers.
Walker last I checked was still a popular Governor, supported by americans more if you count the polls (including the 2 big ones- Rasmuseen and Gallup) and won w/ 54% of the vote; yet somehow a declining 10% who didn't vote for him anyway even among debt/deficit apocalypse are going to cost him re-election; i've always hated the argument that Presidents tend to get re-elected, they don't ; but Govs historically do; and wtf is up w/ you clowns and the Koch brothers? lol

Posted by: YRM (Rarest Ace Commenter, Most Common Ace Reader) at March 01, 2011 04:29 PM (UzBwz)

153 If You Can Read This - Thank a Teacher
your parents.

If You're Reading This in English - Thank a Soldier.

FIFY

Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo (NJConservative) at March 01, 2011 04:29 PM (LH6ir)

154 Why are union thug teachers anti-tax payer?
I'll take a shot at this one - Cause they are mad at the tax payers because the tax payers don't want and can't afford more tax hikes, especially when the economy is screwed and the tax hikes would be used specifically for the benefit of the already well paid Teachers.

Posted by: melvin at March 01, 2011 04:30 PM (3OCZw)

155 It figures that a troll would confuse union bashing with teacher bashing.

Posted by: BackwardsBoy at March 01, 2011 04:30 PM (b6qrg)

156 Also, is there any profession in the world where you can get tenure after working for 3 years?
Madman President of a third world country.

Posted by: Circa (Insert Year Here) at March 01, 2011 04:31 PM (B+qrE)

157 why do the unions hate america!

Posted by: joeindc44 at March 01, 2011 04:31 PM (QxSug)

158 Only way, of course not - predominate way - absolutely (and anyone with a professional degree - yes) also, I hope your English Teacher isn't reading this - she would would likely insist that you spell "their" correctly.
Predominant, not predominate.And that paragraph is badly punctuated, fragmented, and borderline comprehensible.You're not making much of a case for 'edjumication.'

Posted by: nickless at March 01, 2011 04:33 PM (MMC8r)

159 WI GOP Rep. Michelle Litjens interview

"Wisconsin
State Representative who was told she's 'f---ing dead' responds"

Posted by: Miss'80sBaby at March 01, 2011 04:33 PM (q8u+l)

160 It figures that a troll would confuse union bashing with teacher bashing
it's not even union bashing, it's fiscal reality; sorry it's time to take away the gumbit crack

Posted by: YRM (Rarest Ace Commenter, Most Common Ace Reader) at March 01, 2011 04:33 PM (UzBwz)

161 and here's a little teacher math (for those who insist we make too
much). how about we all get out of the teacher business and "teaching
them out of a manual" and just babysit your little snowflakes. Lets
see, I'll do it for $2 an hour (fair rate?), 30 kids (lots of classes
are bigger, but we'll take that number) and assume its only 6 hours a
day, 270 days a year (3/4). anybody care to do the math on that? oh
wait, that over $97,000. that twice what i make now, plus I don't have
to "teach out of a manual".

You don't even need to make that tortured, moronic comparison. Although if you did, you'd realize that you are both more expensive than any daycare center staffer and statistically far more likely to hump the children. Why not compare your cost to the thousands of teachers in the private sector? You know, the ones that get better results without shrieking in panic at the thought of some kind of merit-based compensation.

Posted by: Ted Kennedy's Gristle Encased Head at March 01, 2011 04:33 PM (+lsX1)

162 93 $2B/week in cuts. Does anyone know offhand how much we pay in interest per week for our debt?
Posted by: soothsayer says mooooo at March 01, 2011 04:09 PM (uFokq)
I thought Boner said he wasn't interested in doing that drug out shit.
Posted by: Vic at March 01, 2011 04:11 PM (M9Ie6)
This is the protracted ware them out strategy thatDick Morris has been hawking in his new book ad-nauseum. The problem is everybody knows the Rupubes cannot win a war of attrition,its just not in them.The Dems are likecockroaches and rats, they will be here long after the big one drops. Good news is we'll all be long gone.

Posted by: dananjcon at March 01, 2011 04:33 PM (pr+up)

163 Posted by: Circa (Insert Year Here) at March 01, 2011 04:26 PM (B+qrE)

If the average teacher were as qualified, as well educated, as intelligent and as dedicated as the average O-1 then I would be much less upset by the ass-fucking I get when I pay my property taxes and realize how much the teachers in my district make.

Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo (NJConservative) at March 01, 2011 04:34 PM (LH6ir)

164 I think there needs to be a Universal Code of Public Sector Justice, like ucmj. If they want to get all snotty about it. That way, if a Helen Jones Kelly or a Chicago Court Clerk leaks private info to hurt enemies of the regime, they get jailtime....just a start.

Also, real performance evaluations with mandated washouts, just like the drop offs from O-1s to O-6's. no tenure for life, just for walking in the door.

Posted by: joeindc44 at March 01, 2011 04:34 PM (QxSug)

165 Lessee, 42% support the dirt bags, 31% support Walker, and 27% don't give a shit. That adds up to 58% approval in my book. Give 'em the long meat, Governor, and don't waste the bacon grease.

Posted by: maddogg at March 01, 2011 04:34 PM (OlN4e)

166 why do the unions hate america?

Posted by: joeindc44 at March 01, 2011 04:34 PM (QxSug)

167 Circa,
I served in the military -the O1 also gets his housing paid for, full medical benefits, food, et cetera, plus he's not really in charge of 40 adults -

that's what the E7 is there for ...

I'm all for the PEU aspect of the teachers getting renegotiated.

My local district's teachers were bitching about the conditions of the teachers lounge - which was clean and serviceable. I suggested they contact the district about having the union lease the space from the district at fairmarket value and they could put in goddamn walnut panelling and premium cable.

at their own expense.
-

Posted by: BumperStickerist at March 01, 2011 04:35 PM (h6mPj)

168 And you greedy teabagger parents really need to give your kids bigger allowances. How am I supposed to suppliment my income by selling crack to your kids if you don't give them enough money?

Posted by: liberal loon at March 01, 2011 04:36 PM (c45xH)

169 @ YRM
Where did you see Wis teachers making $200,000 plus?

Posted by: Flapjackmaka at March 01, 2011 04:36 PM (c5RQr)

170 Apparently they were looking for the youngest people they could find.
Posted by: Ghost of Lee Atwater at March 01, 2011 04:13 PM (JxMoP)

They wanted the children that were freshly graduated from the public indoctrination centers.PEW was trying to evaluate if the "education" had taken.

Posted by: Soona at March 01, 2011 04:36 PM (BrUWQ)

171 The irony of watching the President who is deeper in the unions pocket than any other President ever presiding over the end of public unions is dip worthy.

Posted by: JackStraw at March 01, 2011 04:37 PM (TMB3S)

172 50% of those polled thought the other 90% were stupid.

Posted by: dfbaskwill at March 01, 2011 04:37 PM (71LDo)

173 Walker hopefully grows balls and starts firing at 5

Posted by: YRM (Rarest Ace Commenter, Most Common Ace Reader) at March 01, 2011 04:37 PM (UzBwz)

174 I think these union thugs who hate america because they hate tax payers and they hate the voters who voted against their insane pay structures need to realize that they can't Rule 12 hate an entire population. You can't cut off a society's support from itself.

Posted by: joeindc44 at March 01, 2011 04:39 PM (QxSug)

175 Walker hopefully grows balls and starts firing at 5

GROWS balls? They're trying to see if he can still fit in the rotunda as it is.

Posted by: Frederica Bimmel at March 01, 2011 04:39 PM (IB7Vu)

176 and here's a little teacher math (for those who insist we make too much). how about we all get out of the teacher business and "teaching them out of a manual" and just babysit your little snowflakes. Lets see, I'll do it for $2 an hour (fair rate?), 30 kids (lots of classes are bigger, but we'll take that number) and assume its only 6 hours a day, 270 days a year (3/4). anybody care to do the math on that? oh wait, that over $97,000. that twice what i make now, plus I don't have to "teach out of a manual".
You work weekends, too? 52 weeks * 3/4 * 5 days/week = 195 days.
Math is hard.
I respect and value teachers. I do not respect or value public employee unions that appear to not understand that they live off my taxes.

Posted by: travolta at March 01, 2011 04:39 PM (8jRh8)

177 168 And you greedy teabagger parents really need to give your kids bigger allowances. How am I supposed to suppliment my income by selling crack to your kids if you don't give them enough money?
That is rich calling us greedy.
Hey pot! meet this kettle, y'all might have somethin in common.
Liberal loon, how about getting a 2nd job like the restof us little peeps paying your salary

Posted by: Jake_in_Idaho at March 01, 2011 04:40 PM (vrDK+)

178 But I do this for the children and that is priceless!!

Posted by: liberal loon at March 01, 2011 04:40 PM (pr+up)

179 Posted by: Flapjackmaka at March 01, 2011 04:36 PM (c5RQr)
no I said that they make an avg income of ALMOST 200,000 (about 180,000 exactly)
And you greedy teabagger parents really need to give your kids bigger allowances. How am I supposed to suppliment my income by selling crack to your kids if you don't give them enough money?
wtf? troll or sockpuppet?

Posted by: YRM (Rarest Ace Commenter, Most Common Ace Reader) at March 01, 2011 04:40 PM (UzBwz)

180 What you've just described sounds an awful lot
like daycare, except daycare workers only make about half of what you
make, they work 12 months out of the year, and typically they don't get
retirement or health benefits.

Posted by: Ghost of Lee Atwater at March 01, 2011 04:26 PM (JxMoP)
...nor, I might add, do daycare workers get paid holidays, sick leave, personal days, etc. etc. etc.

Posted by: antisocialist at March 01, 2011 04:41 PM (Rwudm)

181 Again, compared to the military, there needs to be a Universal Code of Public Sector Justice, like UCMJ. There's too much entrenched misconduct. That way, if a Helen Jones Kelly or a Chicago Court Clerk leaks private info to hurt enemies of the regime, they get jailtime....just a start.

Also, real performance evaluations with mandated washouts, just like the drop offs from O-1s to O-6's. no tenure for life, just for walking in the door.

Posted by: joeindc44 at March 01, 2011 04:42 PM (QxSug)

182
Posted by: liberal loon at March 01, 2011 04:15 PM (Xdi9w)

Refresh my memory, loon. Which lefty website did you cut/paste that teacher/babysitter "argument" from? Because we've seen it before

Posted by: IllTemperedCur at March 01, 2011 04:42 PM (yf5H9)

183 Can you just imagine how nasty things might get if we weren't so lucky to have a community agitatin' precedent bringing us all together on the issues.

It might be helpful if he could reference some of his favorite teachers and how they inspired him to his great scholastic achievements.

Oh wait...

Posted by: ontherocks at March 01, 2011 04:42 PM (HBqDo)

184 Teachers are pretty much the equivalent of unskilled workers with degrees.

That's why they are so union-luvin'.

Anyone with a chemistry degree can teach chemistry, if they have the desire to teach.

As Ace points out, these folks are:
1) not teaching high level knowledge - just basics
2) They. Teach. From. A. Fucking. Manual.
This isn't freakin' Goodbye, Mr Chips or To Sir With Love.
Teaching ability is almost beside the point Because. They. All. Teach. From. A. Manual.

If states were smart, they'd drop the Education Degree requirements and look for people who actually majored in the subjects they're teaching.

That would drive the cost down plenty fast.

Posted by: naturalfake at March 01, 2011 04:44 PM (+kzvp)

185 yeah, organizing us into a new communist party, the SEIU. These purple shirts are teh new brown shirts.

Posted by: joeindc44 at March 01, 2011 04:44 PM (QxSug)

186 Save my spot, I gotta get a new beer.

Posted by: Jake_in_Idaho at March 01, 2011 04:44 PM (vrDK+)

187 Crack is too expensive. I need to go back to selling weed to the kids. Plus it makes them mellow so I can get in some good pr0n surfing in class.

Posted by: liberal loon at March 01, 2011 04:44 PM (c45xH)

188 Rush actually talked about this poll today. He said that 25% of the people sampled had someone living in their household who is a union member. He said that in the U.S., only about 17% of households have a union member residing in the home. You all knew this poll didn't pass the sniff test, and you were right. This poll stinks.

Posted by: runningrn at March 01, 2011 04:45 PM (ihSHD)

189 Damn, is that Keller shithead back? Go fuck your stupid assed loser self. BTW, you beloved union drones are going down. People are getting sick of the only pruduct they produce in quantity-shit.

Posted by: maddogg at March 01, 2011 04:46 PM (OlN4e)

190 **If states were smart, they'd drop the Education Degree requirements and look for people who actually majored in the subjects they're teaching. **

That's what I'm saying. At these salaries, they're earning more than scientists, engineers, and mathematicians!

You've got to have some serious engineering mojo to get that kind of scratch, like being a partner at consulting firm or head designer at Ford.

Posted by: joeindc44 at March 01, 2011 04:46 PM (QxSug)

191 I'm not gonna be affected by one lone, biased poll. The fact that the MSM has pretty much embargoed any polling on this (or Zero's approval rating, for that matter) tells me all that I need to know.

Posted by: Damn Sockpuppet at March 01, 2011 04:47 PM (YmPwQ)

192 why do the unions hate america!

Unions are rooted in the Communist movement.

Posted by: runningrn at March 01, 2011 04:47 PM (ihSHD)

193 If you get paid to read from a manual and to socially promote kids who failed to learn at your hands, thank a taxpayer.

Why are teacher so anti-american?

Posted by: joeindc44 at March 01, 2011 04:48 PM (QxSug)

194 Lets see, I'll do it for $2 an hour (fair rate?), 30 kids (lots of classes are bigger, but we'll take that number) and assume its only 6 hours a day, 270 days a year (3/4). anybody care to do the math on that? oh wait, that over $97,000. that twice what i make now, plus I don't have to "teach out of a manual".
Uh, you don't teach either math or logic and reasoning, do you? Yourlogic is off, and therefore your math as well. Unless, of course, you actually teach 7 days a week. I'm guessing you don't.

Posted by: rabidsquirrel at March 01, 2011 04:49 PM (RuF8n)

195 no I said that they make an avg income of ALMOST 200,000 (about 180,000 exactly)
-----------------------
Where did you get the info? At most, I find the average making $115,000 and that is still a lot.

Posted by: Flapjackmaka at March 01, 2011 04:49 PM (c5RQr)

196 If the average teacher were as qualified, as well educated, as intelligent and as dedicated as the average O-1

I'll give you "dedication." But you're talking butterbars, here. Let's not get too crazy.

Posted by: Empire of Jeff at March 01, 2011 04:49 PM (5pIHA)

197 the troll left I guess, I was wondering if the troll was going to answer why he hates america.
or what happened to the lefty talking point about being forced to pay for other people's kids.
or what is so noble about "social promotion" of kids who don't learn?
or protecting under performing teachers.
god, they just read from a manual!

Posted by: joeindc44 at March 01, 2011 04:50 PM (QxSug)

198 Posted by: Flapjackmaka at March 01, 2011 04:49 PM (c5RQr)
I just looked it up, I made a big error and will man up and say it, I found that teachers make 120,000 a year in the public sector; 180,000 is for overall public sector jobs
all in all whatever way you look at it it's still ludrcious pay

Posted by: YRM (Rarest Ace Commenter, Most Common Ace Reader) at March 01, 2011 04:51 PM (UzBwz)

199 i realized that the only way republican party is ever going to grow
while spouting all the nonsense, is to make sure that everyone stays as
uneducated and ignorant as they are.

Irony, just like silvery, only rust colored.

Posted by: toby928™ at March 01, 2011 04:51 PM (GTbGH)

200 Rush actually talked about this poll today. He said that 25% of the people sampled had someone living in their household who is a union member. He said that in the U.S., only about 17% of households have a union member residing in the home. You all knew this poll didn't pass the sniff test, and you were right. This poll stinks.
Posted by: runningrn at March 01, 2011 04:45 PM (ihSHD)

That's why I'm not paying attention to any poll anymore. All they are are propaganda shillsfor thehighest bidder. Unfortunately, I'm afraid these same pollsters (which means all of them) will be picking our next repub presidential candidate.

Posted by: Soona at March 01, 2011 04:52 PM (BrUWQ)

201 I think the $200K number comes from Ace talking about the clapping point that they should make twice what they make now. ($89K + pension + benefits like being able to take the car of any tax payer for a week at a time) divided by the percentage of the year they actually work (.7) = actual salary of $130K ish?

fuck them.

Who makes that in America? business owners, some lawyers, some doctors. people who bust their ass.

Posted by: joeindc44 at March 01, 2011 04:53 PM (QxSug)

202 The hour draweth nigh, or something....

Posted by: ef at March 01, 2011 04:54 PM (c7Pp2)

203 Why in the Hell would we give one hoot about this or any other poll? Polling indicated that Obamacare was not wanted, and they rammed it through on the pretense that it was "the right thing to do"? Now polling is the one an only way to govern again?

For fun let's revive the garbage about obstructionism and "the party of no". How about the party of "no way in Hell am I even going to remain instate. But keep paying me anyway".

Posted by: Blue Hen at March 01, 2011 04:55 PM (R2fpr)

204 Pew is notorious for skewed issue polls. When it's a presidential or statewide election poll (do you like X or Y) they're OK. But they're pretty bad when it comes to issue polls where their question wording is designed to produce the desired result.

Posted by: AmishDude at March 01, 2011 04:55 PM (T0NGe)

205 That's why I'm not paying attention to any poll anymore. All they are are propaganda shillsfor thehighest bidder. Unfortunately, I'm afraid these same pollsters (which means all of them) will be picking our next repub presidential candidate.
nope there's still reliable polls out there; Rasmussen is right on the nose and my fav to look at; Gallup is useful but only after you account for a +5-+10 Dem advantage and even though it's a Kos poll, PPP is kinda realiable; but my overall go to poll is Rasmussen which says most people back Walker at this point and that he's so far a popular Gov.
as for polls picking our Repub candidate, I think Deleware showed that doesn't happened and it also showed some polls do get it right

Posted by: YRM (Rarest Ace Commenter, Most Common Ace Reader) at March 01, 2011 04:56 PM (UzBwz)

206 State Sen. Julie Lassa (D) is pregnant and “extremely unhappy” about being on the run.

Hmmm. Perhaps she doesn't want to give birth to an Illinoian anchor baby lest she get dragged into that seething cesspit at some point down the road.

Posted by: ya2daup at March 01, 2011 04:56 PM (HmCnI)

207 Posted by: ya2daup at March 01, 2011 04:56 PM (HmCnI)
she should explain to her child why she supports adding debt for her to pay, why mommy is a coward, and why she (I assume) supports the killing of unborn babies

Posted by: YRM (Rarest Ace Commenter, Most Common Ace Reader) at March 01, 2011 04:58 PM (UzBwz)

208 Hey, why do teachers hate kids. Anyone hear of a movie called Waiting for Superman? Who were the bad guys in that again?
http://tinyurl.com/4m7oea3
too bad trolls can't form thoughts. I'd wonder what they'd say?

Posted by: joeindc44 at March 01, 2011 04:59 PM (QxSug)

209 I'll give you "dedication." But you're talking butterbars, here. Let's not get too crazy.

Posted by: Empire of Jeff at March 01, 2011 04:49 PM (5pIHA)
Uh...I'm comparing them to teachers. it wasn't a compliment. You obviously don't know how to read, so you must be a Marine.

Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo (NJConservative) at March 01, 2011 04:59 PM (LH6ir)

210 As for polls, remember Arnold Schwwarweascgger. He caved into the state union thugs. How'd that help him...or California?

Posted by: joeindc44 at March 01, 2011 05:00 PM (QxSug)

211 Posted by: joeindc44 at March 01, 2011 05:00 PM (QxSug)
THIS

Posted by: YRM (Rarest Ace Commenter, Most Common Ace Reader) at March 01, 2011 05:01 PM (UzBwz)

212 Heh, the Marines claim that they have the highest percentage of high school graduates of any branch of the armed services, oh wait, i see your point.

Posted by: Penfold at March 01, 2011 05:01 PM (1PeEC)

213 That's what I'm saying. At these salaries, they're earning more than scientists, engineers, and mathematicians!

You've got to have some serious engineering mojo to get that kind of
scratch, like being a partner at consulting firm or head designer at
Ford.

Posted by: joeindc44 at March 01, 2011 04:46 PM (QxSug)
Mathematicians simply don't earn that kind of money as mathematicians. They have to go into administration.I've said it before, "Don't study science, kids, that's for chumps."

Posted by: AmishDude at March 01, 2011 05:01 PM (T0NGe)

214 The teachers I work with in my kids' schools are good, conscientious,
qualified and dedicated professionals, and we have the test scores to
prove it.

The 'they just read from a manual' trope might be true for some, but it's not true for us. 'Just reading from a manual' is a way to get a shit education.

But 'collective bargaining' against the taxpayer is still right out.

Posted by: nickless at March 01, 2011 05:03 PM (MMC8r)

215 This is an easy poll to manipulate - if you ask a random person if they support "taking away rights", more than likely they'll say no even if they have no idea what the context/specifics of the legislation are.

Given all the media airtime given to outrageous statements by Democrats and protesters about Governor Walker trying to put public workers into sweatshops, it's no wonder that many people have false understandings of what public union collective bargaining really is.

Posted by: yabkpjo at March 01, 2011 05:05 PM (KPxE1)

216
Public service announcement:

It's 5 o'clock, do you know where your Senator is?

Posted by: Cherry π at March 01, 2011 05:05 PM (+sBB4)

217 Posted by: joeindc44 at March 01, 2011 04:46 PM (QxSug)

My father made about 84K/year at WIPP, of course he had close to 40 years experience in HVAC.

Posted by: Holger at March 01, 2011 05:06 PM (YxGud)

218 7
Which is why whenever liberals are talking about a
pro-union position, they call unions "working families" instead.25
Walker
is going to lose his next election because he is trying to stick it to
working families and teachers.

What did I tell ya?

Posted by: Alex at March 01, 2011 05:06 PM (/yzYn)

219 Walker's address live here.

He's not up yet, but the joint Assembly is...raucous.

Posted by: HeatherRadish at March 01, 2011 05:07 PM (nAOMZ)

220 Oh. Yeah.

State Sen. Julie Lassa (D) is pregnant and “extremely unhappy” about being on the run.
Hey, her body, her choice, right? Unless she was kidnapped, she chose her path.

Posted by: HeatherRadish at March 01, 2011 05:08 PM (nAOMZ)

221 Posted by: HeatherRadish at March 01, 2011 05:07 PM (nAOMZ)
FIRING TIME

Posted by: YRM (Rarest Ace Commenter, Most Common Ace Reader) at March 01, 2011 05:08 PM (UzBwz)

222 Public teachers endlessly assert their out-sized value to society, yet are afraid to compete with private schools.

People who are really good at what they do aren't afraid of competition. If public teachers were as good as they claim and in it "for the children" as they claim, then they would support school vouchers.

They're always bitching about being shackled by the administration, right? Okay. Free yourselves. School vouchers for everyone and the public teachers can go work for private schools who champion teaching techniques that they favor.

Posted by: Warden at March 01, 2011 05:10 PM (HzhBE)

223 Spouse is a teacher + a union member, albeit in MI andI support Walker 100%.Alot of generalization thrown about all teachers being horrible etc etc.Depends alot onlocation Ithink.

Posted by: Red Shirt at March 01, 2011 05:11 PM (FIDMq)

224 72Posted by: liberal loon at March 01, 2011 04:05 PM (Xdi9w)

Oh, yes, and the lessons regarding punctuation and capitalization appear to have taken a firm hold in your superior mind, you ineducable and over-schooled fool.

Posted by: ya2daup at March 01, 2011 05:11 PM (HmCnI)

225 and here's a little teacher math (for those who insist we make too much). how about we all get out of the teacher business and "teaching them out of a manual" and just babysit your little snowflakes. Lets see, I'll do it for $2 an hour (fair rate?), 30 kids (lots of classes are bigger, but we'll take that number) and assume its only 6 hours a day, 270 days a year (3/4). anybody care to do the math on that? oh wait, that over $97,000. that twice what i make now, plus I don't have to "teach out of a manual". Nobody begrudges teachers making a decent (market value) wage. We begrudge the insane benefits that public employoee union employees get - cadillac health insurance that they either don't contribute to or contribute way less than private employees and crazy high pensions after 20 or 30 years of work. And also how hard it is to fire or discipline teachers. And, of course, the abysmal success rate of public school teachers.
If public school teachers were paid based on outcomes, they'd make far, far less than they currently do.
But, I get pretty amused when teachers try to pretend like they are the most noble and hardest workers around. They get more time off than anyone, have greater job security, and after your first year of teaching, most of it is routine (i.e., most teachers develop their course, tests, homework etc. and then just do it the same every year). It is hardly rocket science to teach 8th grade english or math. It is neither the most important job in teh world nor the hardest by any means. It is a job like any other and market forces should dictate pay and benefits - which they do not for public school teachers.

Posted by: monkeytoe at March 01, 2011 05:11 PM (sOx93)

226 I AM JUST SO COTTON PICKIN' AWESOME AT TEACHING THAT I'M AFRAID TO BE REWARDED BASED ON PERFORMANCE!!!!!

Posted by: Warden at March 01, 2011 05:12 PM (FkI2z)

227 eh the adress has a chat and the pro-union people spouting stupid shit already

Posted by: YRM (Rarest Ace Commenter, Most Common Ace Reader) at March 01, 2011 05:13 PM (UzBwz)

228 I should quote some Lit my wife gets from the NEA...good stuff.

Posted by: Red Shirt at March 01, 2011 05:13 PM (FIDMq)

229 Red Shirt.

No, stop it. We aren't generalizing about teachers. We are specifically pissed at their contracts.

Second, when we do spout off about teachers, it's when confronted by "teachers" saying stuff like Hitler=Walker cause you know Hitler hated unions, even though he was head of the national socialist workers party.

We get really pissed when the debate about teacher's golden contracts turns into a shouting match about us being "anti-teacher." When you're earning more than engineers and doctors, it's time to can it.

Posted by: joeindc44 at March 01, 2011 05:13 PM (QxSug)

230 227
eh the adress has a chat and the pro-union people spouting stupid shit already

Posted by: YRM (Rarest Ace Commenter, Most Common Ace Reader) at March 01, 2011 05:13 PM (UzBwz)

My kind of people.

Posted by: Richard Trumka at March 01, 2011 05:14 PM (8/QZP)

231 They get more time off than anyone, have greater job security, and
after your first year of teaching, most of it is routine (i.e., most
teachers develop their course, tests, homework etc. and then just do it
the same every year).

Never have to carry a pager, get called in in the middle of the night, or work on a holiday, either.

(Milwaukee PS teachers gotta buy their own body armor, but it's a one-time expense, and tax-deductible.)

Posted by: HeatherRadish at March 01, 2011 05:15 PM (nAOMZ)

232 Full text of Gov. Scott Walker's budget address, as prepared for delivery

Posted by: HeatherRadish at March 01, 2011 05:16 PM (nAOMZ)

233 O/T but IHOP is celebrating Rachel Corrie Day.

Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo (NJConservative) at March 01, 2011 05:18 PM (LH6ir)

234 I'll give you "dedication." But you're talking butterbars, here. Let's not get too crazy.

The average 2LT should be thought of like a beagle, or a grad student. Clever, but not smart, and prone to making messes or humping anything that moves...

Posted by: Alex at March 01, 2011 05:19 PM (x40U+)

235 One of the reasons that collective bargaining for salaries was left on the table is that that doesn't commit the state to a long-term boondoggle like with the pensions.

If a Dem governor overpays public employees, a Rep governor can right the ship without too much long-term damage.

I still hate the idea of collective bargaining. It's just a monopoly and the union bosses are just robber barons, but for some reason people still think it's a good idea.

Posted by: AmishDude at March 01, 2011 05:19 PM (T0NGe)

236 Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo (NJConservative) at March 01, 2011 05:18 PM (LH6ir)

With a Bulldozer load of pancakes.

Posted by: Holger at March 01, 2011 05:20 PM (YxGud)

237 Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo (NJConservative) at March 01, 2011 05:18 PM (LH6ir)
I didn't say that!

Posted by: LGF King Charles Johnson at March 01, 2011 05:22 PM (UzBwz)

238 232

Full text of Gov. Scott Walker's budget address, as prepared for delivery
Posted by: HeatherRadish at March 01, 2011 05:16 PM (nAOMZ)

Many, many thanks for posting this, Heather!

Posted by: ya2daup at March 01, 2011 05:22 PM (HmCnI)

239 but for some reason people still think it's a good idea.

It was once explained to me that collective bargaining is for people who have no value as individuals.

Also, I giggle everytime Walker says "WisCONNNsin."

Posted by: HeatherRadish at March 01, 2011 05:23 PM (nAOMZ)

240 My criticism of the Right in this matter is that their argument is along the lines of "we can't afford it".
The fact is, people must be paid what is fair - period. What's going on here is that the compensation of teachers has become completely divorced from what's "fair". The only truemeasure of what's "fair" is what supply and demand dictate. But that has been absent from the debate on either right or left. It seems pretty obvious that supply and demand is not the teachers' friend - otherwise they wouldn't behave as they do.
Basically, teachers are acategory ofpolitical crony.

Posted by: Optimizer at March 01, 2011 05:25 PM (2lTU+)

241 @8: "Polls are crazy this time. I'm in commie Ca. and I haven't heard a lot of "we love the Unions" from my unemployed leftist friends."
LAPD hit its knees pretty hard to suck WI union dick....

Posted by: Fa Cube Itches at March 01, 2011 05:26 PM (xy9wk)

242 Basically, teachers are a category of political crony.

Of course. That was the point and lifeblood of unionization.

Posted by: nickless at March 01, 2011 05:26 PM (MMC8r)

243 My criticism of the Right in this matter is that their argument is along the lines of "we can't afford it".

But that's always the bottom line. A half million for an Italian sportscar might be a fair price for such a perfect work of mobile testosterone compensation, and I would love to have one but I can't afford it, so I don't.

Posted by: toby928™ at March 01, 2011 05:28 PM (GTbGH)

244 I can't wait to hear the proggs start wailing about Walker vowing to go after cyber-pedophiles.

Posted by: HeatherRadish at March 01, 2011 05:30 PM (nAOMZ)

245 meh. it's a poll of adults so the most liberal sample possible. And I haven't seen the crosstabs but i'm gonna guess, much like the ppp and the cbs/nyt poll, that the partisan breakdown is in favor of the dems. Even though partisan affiliation in the country is near even.

Posted by: hueydiamondpooty at March 01, 2011 05:32 PM (YhZFe)

246 Hot Air: GULP...all fucking day long....

Posted by: NfromNC at March 01, 2011 05:34 PM (kR57Q)

247 Now we're in the cheerleading portion of the speech. FREEDOM!

Posted by: HeatherRadish at March 01, 2011 05:34 PM (nAOMZ)

248 I wonder if you guys have seen an ad that the NYS Teachers' union has been playing during our local news broadcasts. It's just mind-boggling.
There's a politician in his office,explaining tosome unidentified person in a chair howhe's giving big shots special breaks, but that some people just have to accept getting less. Then they show you who's in the chair, and it's a couple of little kids.
So, holy crap! If there's still anybody out there who doesn't understand that the teachers unions are holding your kids hostage, their adkind of tells you in an in-your-face kind of way.
Ironically, the teachers union itself is the biggest big shot of all, and it really is those kids - along with their kids - who will get stuck with the bill.

Posted by: Optimizer at March 01, 2011 05:34 PM (2lTU+)

249 244 I can't wait to hear the proggs start wailing about Walker vowing to go after cyber-pedophiles.

Wheeze!

Posted by: Barney Frank's well stretched ass at March 01, 2011 05:36 PM (OlN4e)

250 Oooh, bitching on Twitter that "Walker budget eliminates recycling programs in state of WI"

Good. Curbside recycling is economically unviable (with the possible exception of aluminum...is it worth dedicating space in my apartment to soda cans to sell them for scrap? How many pounds do you usually need before someone will consider taking them from you worth their time to count out the change?).

Posted by: HeatherRadish at March 01, 2011 05:40 PM (nAOMZ)

251 (Alternately, there's nothing stopping enviro-scrunts from starting groups using their own money to collect used pizza boxes for recycling. Except, of course, that they're cheap bastards.)

Posted by: HeatherRadish at March 01, 2011 05:42 PM (nAOMZ)

252 251 (Alternately, there's nothing stopping enviro-scrunts from starting groups using their own money to collect used pizza boxes for recycling. Except, of course, that they're cheap bastards.)
Posted by: HeatherRadish at March 01, 2011 05:42 PM (nAOMZ)
Our recycle center takes every cardboard known to man, but doesn't want pizza boxes.Is that common?

Posted by: Red Shirt at March 01, 2011 05:45 PM (FIDMq)

253 I have no idea. When I was in NY, they took pizza boxes. When I moved home, they'd removed the "recyclables" dumpster because the people who live here are too lazy to walk three extra steps to the garbage dumpster with their food waste and cat litter...

(I refuse to waste precious Lake Michigan water handwashing my garbage, but I don't feel a need to sabotage the people who do.)

Posted by: HeatherRadish at March 01, 2011 05:48 PM (nAOMZ)

254 Posted by: Red Shirt at March 01, 2011 05:45 PM (FIDMq)

Same here in my town with pizza boxes. It has something to do with the grease and stuck on food. It also applies to other containers like Chinese take out boxes.

Posted by: YIKES! at March 01, 2011 05:53 PM (8/QZP)

255 Heh,as I waspulling up and reading the sign that said no pizza boxes in pretty big letters, some dumbass walks right by it with a HUGE arm load ofpizza boxes

Posted by: Red Shirt at March 01, 2011 05:58 PM (FIDMq)

256 It has something to do with the grease and stuck on food.

I can see that. Spontaneous combustion in the compressed bail would be rather unfortunate.

Posted by: toby928™ at March 01, 2011 05:58 PM (GTbGH)

257 From the article: State Sen. Julie Lassa (D) is pregnant and “extremely unhappy” about being on the run.

Where are they staying? Someone needs to pull up outside and blast "Ride Like The Wind" at their rooms.

Posted by: not the droid you seek at March 01, 2011 05:59 PM (h35AH)

258 Its 5:03 CST, do you know where your state senator is?

Posted by: Red Shirt at March 01, 2011 06:03 PM (FIDMq)

259 Don't get me started on trees. Fuck. Them. All.

Posted by: Unclefacts, Confuse A Cat, Ltd at March 01, 2011 06:04 PM (eCAn3)

260 259 Don't get me started on trees. Fuck. Them. All.
Posted by: Unclefacts, Confuse A Cat, Ltd at March 01, 2011 06:04 PM (eCAn3)
Bastard, nothing for you!

Posted by: The Giving Tree at March 01, 2011 06:06 PM (FIDMq)

261 259
Don't get me started on trees. Fuck. Them. All.

Posted by: Unclefacts, Confuse A Cat, Ltd at March 01, 2011 06:04 PM (eCAn3)

Trees, overrated.

Posted by: A shrubbery at March 01, 2011 06:14 PM (8/QZP)

262 the only things prettier than a tree is all the things you can make from them.

Posted by: joeindc44 at March 01, 2011 06:15 PM (QxSug)

263 Stay gone, assholes. You're money grubbing union corruption can go to hell and so can you. Stay gone - WISconsin doens't need the D.

Posted by: Lemon Kitten at March 01, 2011 06:17 PM (0fzsA)

264 and here's a little teacher math (for those who insist we make too much). how about we all get out of the teacher business and "teaching them out of a manual" and just babysit your little snowflakes. Lets see, I'll do it for $2 an hour (fair rate?), 30 kids (lots of classes are bigger, but we'll take that number) and assume its only 6 hours a day, 270 days a year (3/4). anybody care to do the math on that? oh wait, that over $97,000. that twice what i make now, plus I don't have to "teach out of a manual".

Tell me, why should you get paid per kid? Why $60 per hour? Guess what? I make less than $35K per year and the health and safety of way more than 30 humans (babies to elderly) are my responsibility. I don't get paid per unit of my work. I also pay way more than 12.5% of my health insurance and I contribute 100% of my retirement from my salary so sorry if I don't feel any pain for people making over 50K per year to do a bad job at indoctrinating my children without repercussion if they suck. We don't get tenure in my sector and I get a raise depending on whether I do a good job at work, not just because I've managed to stay with the company for x years. Fuck the unions.

Posted by: Geronimo at March 01, 2011 06:18 PM (AVXTq)

265 >>>The fact is, people must be paid what is fair - period. What's going on here is that the compensation of teachers has become completely divorced from what's "fair". The only true measure of what's "fair" is what supply and demand dictate.

Teachers are essentially selling themselves as a charity case, that is, we should pay them ever more because, as with a charity, some things the market doesn't take care of adequately and you have to give extra.

The trouble is that teachers are not exactly in short supply. It's not as if current - or 1990, or 1980 -- rates of compensation failed to attract enough teachers. There's always plenty of them.

So on what basis is the case to be made that we need to pay teachers more in order to make up for market failure?

And it's not nice to bash a profession, but with all the outsized claims made on behalf of teachers, I have to push back with truth.

The claim is made they should be compensated at above-market rates because they're "sacrificing," like a Peace Corps volunteer, by going into a low-wage charity-type occupation, but could have, in fact, pursued a higher-paying one.

This is not true for 90% of all teachers. 90% of all teachers went into the profession because given their level of intelligence and their particular talents this seemed to be a good, honorable, stable, fairly well paying profession. They did not, like monks, undertake vows of poverty or hardship for this. They took a fair paying job with nice hours and lots of time off.

This is not a hardship case and they should not be rewarded as if it were.

Further, if we're going to make outsized claims about the particular value of education, we must play the comparison game to other jobs: Are plumbers not important? Without plumbers, we'd be dead, after all.

Let's face it, this is a fairly easy job in the scheme of things, and let's face another fact: The people in college self-selecting to get education degrees were not, in fact, usually at the top of the class. They did not tend to turn down full-ride scholarships to Harvard Business School in order to teach.

The intellectual demands of the job are modest, the hardships of the job are modest, there are millions and millions of people qualified to do this job (there would be MORE qualified people if the teacher's union didn't get competition-restricting laws passed in every goddamn state to keep out other possible teachers by imposing requirements to get the bullshit Masters of Education degree). The job ends at the end of the day. There are no crunches, no 72 hour periods of straight working in a crunch, as every accountant or computer programmer or lawyer must face. There is no catastrophic risk of failure, as a doctor or pilot must face.

The demands of the job are modest. The intellectual requirements are modest. The training necessary is modest.

Is it too harsh to conclude then the pay ought to be modest as well?

Posted by: ace at March 01, 2011 06:18 PM (nj1bB)

266 I always laugh at the proposition that we must pay teachers more to "attract better teachers" and provide better education.

1. If this increased pay is to ATTRACT better teachers, why should the current, less-better ones enjoy the pay hike? Isn't the point to ATTRACT *NEW* teachers? Why pay more for the self-confessedly weak teachers in place?

2. How is it that paying current teachers more will translate to a kid being better educated? Are they currently HOLDING BACK? Are they capable of excellence but only phoning it in because they're getting $4000 per year less than they think they should?

No one ever answers these questions, ever.

Because, of course, it's a scam; it's special pleading by a government-dependent special interest who wants to be treated like a charity case. Or wants to be treated, as it has been put, as civil servants when it comes to firing and getting results, but as professionals when it comes to pay.

Posted by: ace at March 01, 2011 06:23 PM (nj1bB)

267 stray thought/

In my middle school we had a lady teacher who worked as a bartender during the Summer. (Yes, she was hot.)

Posted by: Serious Cat at March 01, 2011 06:29 PM (bAySe)

268 oh, and they don't have to worry about malpractice either.

Posted by: joeindc44 at March 01, 2011 06:29 PM (QxSug)

269
Are there any stats out there tabulating the extra pay teachers get for summer work?

Posted by: Serious Cat at March 01, 2011 06:31 PM (bAySe)

270 These teachers are acting as if they were immaculated when they started working.

I also wonder about the ratio of chiefs to indians in these public schools, how many of these people are goddamned admin types playing solitaire all day long?

Posted by: joeindc44 at March 01, 2011 06:31 PM (QxSug)

271 and again, this isn't about teachers. It's about public sector unions holding the tax payers in contempt.

Posted by: joeindc44 at March 01, 2011 06:33 PM (QxSug)

272 joeindc4,

yeah, I was wondering about that earlier today... when you discount the extra costs for malpractice ins., how much do Wisc. doctors take in on average?

Posted by: Serious Cat at March 01, 2011 06:34 PM (bAySe)

273 Oh yeah, and what's the fail out rate for these Master's programs, their admissions requirements, etc.? What's the teacher washout rate in general? Lawyers flame out all the time, doctors can't cut it.

I recall an article about the shadow writer, his main clients were educational masters, no?

http://tinyurl.com/35accy2

Posted by: joeindc44 at March 01, 2011 06:37 PM (QxSug)

274 They need to do the burn out like the military does how it pyramids from O-1s to O-6's. So, keep only 20% of teachers for more than 5 years. Make it competitve

Posted by: joeindc44 at March 01, 2011 06:37 PM (QxSug)

275 ace, I agree with your 266 except this:
The job ends at the end of the day.

Not for the young teachers. Between prepping and grading (which is a total pain-in-the-ass) they're going to put in long hours. But what you say later (which is what I think you meant) is right. The "deadlines" are not urgent and they have a lot of flexibility.

They also get (1) a government job, (2) a union and (3) tenure. For that, they should be working at 2/3rds the minimum wage. And I will point out that tenure is almost automatic. At universities, tenure is a major process that many people fail.

Posted by: AmishDude at March 01, 2011 06:37 PM (T0NGe)

276 I also wonder about the ratio of chiefs to indians in these public schools, how many of these people are goddamned admin types playing solitaire all day long?
Posted by: joeindc44 at March 01, 2011 06:31 PM (QxSug)
Pretty sure you would shat yourself, also some of the supers do quite well. Go a step higher, how many union reps are there and whats that ratio. i thought I read some union honcho was rolling 400k

Posted by: The Giving Tree at March 01, 2011 06:37 PM (FIDMq)

277 Laundry day!

Posted by: Red Shirt at March 01, 2011 06:40 PM (FIDMq)

278 273
Oh yeah, and what's the fail out rate for these Master's programs, their
admissions requirements, etc.?

Very low. I know in math they don't even get a real master's. They wouldn't be able to hack a genuine MS in math with all of the measure theory, etc. They get a wussy math ed master's at best.

What's the teacher washout rate in
general?

Depends. For Elem. Ed., almost none. For math/science ed., not insignificant.

Lawyers flame out all the time, doctors can't cut it.

Wait. Who's ever flunked out of law school (other than Al Gore)? If you're talking about burnout or failing to earn a living, then you're right.

Posted by: AmishDude at March 01, 2011 06:44 PM (T0NGe)

279 ***Lawyers flame out all the time, doctors can't cut it.

Wait. Who's ever flunked out of law school (other than Al Gore)? If you're talking about burnout or failing to earn a living, then you're right.***

yeah, I am talking about the real world, pulling in money as a lawyer is hard. Doctors have it rough too. not everyone turns into Ally McBeal.

Posted by: joeindc44 at March 01, 2011 07:01 PM (QxSug)

280 And let's not forget waiting for Superman.

Posted by: joeindc44 at March 01, 2011 07:04 PM (QxSug)

281 Or to put it another way, if I knew that being a public school teacher was a path to most secure, highest paid job in the country, then maybe I would have liked to have considered it before I got my engineering and law degrees.

Posted by: joeindc44 at March 01, 2011 07:14 PM (QxSug)

282 I always laugh at the proposition that we must pay teachers more to "attract better teachers" and provide better education.
Catholic school teachers are paid much less than govt. school teachers, yet parents in the inner city have their children on waiting lists to enroll them.
I also wonder about the ratio of chiefs to indians in these public schools, how many of these people are goddamned admin types playing solitaire all day long?
This is how Chris Christie gained traction at the beginning of his battle in NJ. Polls showed him at a disadvantage, but then he began to release the numbers - school districts top-heavy with superintendents and administration, and the citizenry began to see the light. The people started to understand it wasn't a jihad against poor Miss Doolittle who has to forego caramel lattes to buy notebooks and crayons for THE CHILDREN...but that their mack-daddy property taxes are used to support thenow infamousbloated bureaucracy.

Posted by: Marla at March 01, 2011 07:34 PM (kD8Fh)

283 A teacher's license should require only that you have a bachelor's degree or, say, a Master level vocational skill, and be able to pass some basic classes on first aid, legal issues w/ regards to discipline and ethics and pass the state's GED exam. Teachers would be required to recertify every five years.

Basically, you could do it taking an evening program for about two hours a night for four weeks. Then you'd be licensed to work at a public school.

Posted by: Alex at March 01, 2011 07:34 PM (x40U+)

284 A couple points about the discomfort of the fleebaggers:
Early on I wondered if any one of them had the slightest clue about what their SEIU masters were demanding of them...the personal sacrifice that they would have to endure in service to Thug Nation. Are the interests of the AFL-CIO, of the handsomely paid U of WI professors of greater importance that that of their own families? Granted, some of those fleebagger spouses must be elated to have the ball and chain out of their hair for a week or more...but don't any of them miss their kids, their house, their comfy chair in the den?

Posted by: Marla at March 01, 2011 07:37 PM (kD8Fh)

285 and that's the thing, these "teachers licenses" and "Masters" are also trying to include progressive mindthought requirements. bad juju

Posted by: joeindc44 at March 01, 2011 07:39 PM (QxSug)

286 Late to the conversation, but that poll is nonsense. It not only oversampled Dems, more importantly it oversampled both government employees and union members by 3:1 and 2:1 their representation in a normal population sample. (2% ->6%, 12% -> 25% respectively). Complete garbage. The peep's of WI are NOT having buyers remorse over Walker. Yahoo, the LSM, and Dems are getting a pretty stiff hate on though.

Posted by: Abiss at March 01, 2011 07:51 PM (efUrF)

287 The MSM still has clout...the answer to that is like Christie...good communication. Plus blogs, etc.

On my facebook I rarely go political, but once in a while I will put up a fact that know will help non-informed folks consider their position.

Like when one of the top 5 paid person in CA's gov't was a CHP sergeant who made $300,000+ in 2009.

No matter if you are full lib, that shocks people.

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289 I was married to a teacher once. Teacher's response to the " getting 12 month's salary for working only 9 months' criticism goes like this: "Actually, its 9 month's salary, just spread out over 12 months". That is called obfuscation, I think. Imagine, only working 9 months a year. The rest of us work 12 months a year, dont we? Well, not all of us. There was a little labor dust-up here in my small, Alaskan town last year. The muni worker's union wanted more, which was going to cost me a significant property tax increase, so I looked into it. I spoke to the city manager. Seems like for every four city workers on the payroll, he has to hire a fifth, because the cumulative vacation/sick leave time per employee equals THREE MONTHS. sick leave has nothing to do with sick, it is just another term for vacation. They negotiated this contract while no one was paying attention. 60% of the city budget is payroll and benefits, a significant percentage going to folks long since retired. Get that? We are still paying them as well as their replacements. The 60% will soon morph into 100% of city revenues. On track for insolvency? join the crowd.

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