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Senate Finance Committee Draft Health Care Plan: No Government Option But Co-Ops And Lots Of Taxes And Fees
After an enjoyable diversion into the world of Van Jones last week, it's back to fighting off the government destruction of the health care system.
The Senate Finance Committee after weeks of chatting has finally created a draft plan.As expected, Baucus’ proposal does not include a public insurance option, but instead features insurance cooperatives that could appeal to moderate Democrats and perhaps some Republicans. That’s a major difference from bills approved by three House committees and the Senate Health, Education, Labor and Pensions committee. Baucus’ plan also is expected to be less generous in terms of subsidies and coverage than those bills – which, along with the absence of the public option, is sure to rankle more liberal Democrats. The bipartisan group also is considering a tax on insurance companiesThis will help keep costs down because corporate taxes and fees never get passed onto consumers or anything. Shouldn't people reworking about 17% of the world's largest economy have some basic understanding of economics? Now we just wait and see if the Justice Anthony Kennedy of the Senate, Olympia Snowe, gives it her thumbs up or down. Republican Congressmen Shadegg and Hoekstra have laid out their plans for what health care reform should look like. They break the issue down into three categories, Costs and Control, Pre-existing Condition and access. Their "Costs and Control" proposals are the best part.
that provide expensive coverage plans. And one feature that might help satisfy the more liberal members of the committee is that insurance companies could face a separate new fee to help pay for the plan. It would be determined based on market share, and could raise $6 billion a year starting in 2010, the sources said.
•Costs and Control. The health-care reform debate centers on how to lower the cost of care, and who should ultimately control health-care decisions. Under the current system, nobody is focused on controlling costs. Roughly 60% of all health care in America is employer-provided. This third-party payment structure has divorced the consumer—the patient—from the real cost of services. It encourages excess spending, runaway lawsuits, defensive medicine (doctors ordering unnecessary tests and procedures out of fear of being sued), and huge malpractice premiums. President Obama and Democrats in Congress say that a new federal health-care bureaucracy and a so-called public plan is the answer. They are wrong. Government has caused the problems we face in health care. Our tax code incentivizes employer-provided health care, rewards health insurance companies by insulating them from accountability, and punishes those who lack employer-provided care. Every night on television there are dozens of commercials from Geico, Progressive, Allstate and other companies offering us better auto insurance at lower costs. But there are virtually no commercials for health insurance. This is because the federal government protects health insurance companies from real competition. Insurers don't have to market to consumers. They only have to satisfy employers. In addition, a person living in New York, for example, is currently only permitted to purchase individual insurance in New York. Allowing competition across state lines would drive down cost tremendously. We believe the solution to this problem is patient choice. What appears to be a free market in health care today is not. The health-care market is a stacked deck that favors insurance companies rather than patients. We must stop punishing Americans who buy their own plan by forcing them to purchase their care with after-tax dollars, making it at least one-third more expensive than employer-provided care. Individuals should be able to take their employer's plan, or turn it down and select insurance of their own choosing without any tax penalty.I think it's good that Republicans have some reasonable policy initiatives for this fight but I'd prefer they just stick with "No" and attacking the Democrats plans. Proposing a plan of any sort gives the Democrats something to attack and takes the focus off their plans (given their huge congressional majorities and control of the White House, they are the only plans that will be up for real consideration). Ultimately, this is fight among Democrats. We should just be egging both sides on to keep fighting and bringing outside pressure against all of them. The time for the Republicans to propose something (if we must at all) is next year in the run up to the elections. For now it's better to just keep on the attack.
Comments
(Jump to bottom of comments)1
DrewM, I think it makes sense for the Republicans to offer alternative proposals to preclude the argument that "the Democrat plan is the only game in town." If there's no alternative except Democrat "reform" or no reform, there will be a lot of politicians in the wobbly middle who will be susceptible to the "don't just stand there, do something" admonition.
Posted by: stuiec at September 07, 2009 05:29 PM (f0O9k)
2
As expected, Baucus' proposal does not include a public insurance option
Will it subsidize my Jenny Craig plan?
Also, Lindsey needs a prescription for his Viagra.
Will it subsidize my Jenny Craig plan?
Also, Lindsey needs a prescription for his Viagra.
Posted by: The MEGALICIOUS Meghan McCain at September 07, 2009 05:29 PM (VRZ7Z)
3
He can't seem to get it up otherwise and I don't know what else to do.
Posted by: The MEGALICIOUS Meghan McCain at September 07, 2009 05:30 PM (VRZ7Z)
4
No tort reform? Then they're not really serious.
There are real-world solutions to this, but I don't expect to hear any. Yeah, there's no point in interrupting your enemy when he's busy defeating himself.
There are real-world solutions to this, but I don't expect to hear any. Yeah, there's no point in interrupting your enemy when he's busy defeating himself.
Posted by: BackwardsBoy at September 07, 2009 05:32 PM (ZGhSv)
5
The Republican plan is loaded with taxes, fees, and cost controls?
You mean the Democrat-Lite plan, right?
Jeebus.
You mean the Democrat-Lite plan, right?
Jeebus.
Posted by: eman at September 07, 2009 05:32 PM (UxbAN)
6
1) Max Baucus is only slightly less of a turd than your average Democrat.
2) Joe Kennedy will NOT be running for the US Senate.
1) Max Baucus is only slightly less of a turd than your average Democrat.
2) Joe Kennedy will NOT be running for the US Senate.
Posted by: Tweet, Rabinowitz, Goldstein, & Lipschitz at September 07, 2009 05:33 PM (KICKO)
7
Although he always comes to bed with a rock-hard erection after watching an episode of Doogie Howser, MD.
I don't understand that.
I don't understand that.
Posted by: The MEGALICIOUS Meghan McCain at September 07, 2009 05:33 PM (VRZ7Z)
8
Posted by: BackwardsBoy at September 07, 2009 05:32 PM (ZGhSv)
They didn't explicitly say that, it was a short op-ed that was more of an overview.
I took this part to mean they understood the importance of tort reform in any final Republican plan...
It (the current system) encourages excess spending, runaway lawsuits, defensive medicine
(doctors ordering unnecessary tests and procedures out of fear of being
sued), and huge malpractice premiums.
If I'm wrong, then yeah, they aren't serious.
They didn't explicitly say that, it was a short op-ed that was more of an overview.
I took this part to mean they understood the importance of tort reform in any final Republican plan...
It (the current system) encourages excess spending, runaway lawsuits, defensive medicine
(doctors ordering unnecessary tests and procedures out of fear of being
sued), and huge malpractice premiums.
If I'm wrong, then yeah, they aren't serious.
Posted by: DrewM. at September 07, 2009 05:34 PM (iTt2X)
9
I don't know why republicans and everyone else for that matter against the government run plan doesn't point out that the government run plan will be allowed to compete in all 50 states. Private run plans cannot.
This allows the government run plan to have a much larger pool of members which reduces cost of the insurance. The bottom line is that private insurers will be forced out of business for that reason alone.
This allows the government run plan to have a much larger pool of members which reduces cost of the insurance. The bottom line is that private insurers will be forced out of business for that reason alone.
Posted by: robtr at September 07, 2009 05:35 PM (H60q6)
10
So this plan creates government sponsored "co-ops" while also taxing private insurance companies to pay for it?
Who left the back door open?
Who left the back door open?
Posted by: Doc at September 07, 2009 05:37 PM (rzJpR)
11
Maybe I should put a television in the bedroom and he could mount me from behind while we watch Doogie Howser, MD.
Although personallyI think it's a stupid show - maybe I could do my nails while he's taking care of business.
Although personallyI think it's a stupid show - maybe I could do my nails while he's taking care of business.
Posted by: The MEGALICIOUS Meghan McCain at September 07, 2009 05:37 PM (VRZ7Z)
12
i wish they would just focus on the freakin economy, and drop all this unneeded at the moment, healthcare reform shit...
Posted by: trailortrash at September 07, 2009 05:39 PM (wiDZf)
13
Liberals hate capitalism. End of story.
Posted by: UncleFacts Summoner of Meteors, Overseer of Burghers at September 07, 2009 05:39 PM (vZVv7)
14
This allows the government run plan to have a much larger pool of
members which reduces cost of the insurance. The bottom line is that
private insurers will be forced out of business for that reason alone.
The other big reason is because their isn't an employer in their right mind who would offer you coverage they have to pay for when the governments offering insurance you have to pay for.
members which reduces cost of the insurance. The bottom line is that
private insurers will be forced out of business for that reason alone.
The other big reason is because their isn't an employer in their right mind who would offer you coverage they have to pay for when the governments offering insurance you have to pay for.
Posted by: Blazer at September 07, 2009 05:40 PM (+FzLa)
15
I think I know what Admiral Akbar would say.
Doesn't anyone in Washington believe in free markets anymore?
Doesn't anyone in Washington believe in free markets anymore?
Posted by: eman at September 07, 2009 05:42 PM (UxbAN)
16
NO COMPROMISE!!!!
Posted by: arhooley at September 07, 2009 05:43 PM (GKXA7)
17
It's good for the GOP to be able to point to a plan and say, "We're not just the party of no." It's a pretty good plan anyway. This is just a strategic move, though. They'll get a bill of some kind; the fight now is to make it as nondestructive as possible under the circumstances and then destroy it later when the GOP retakes one or both houses.
Posted by: joncelli at September 07, 2009 05:44 PM (vPMF5)
Posted by: Blazer at September 07, 2009 05:44 PM (+FzLa)
19
Look coops are just another name for a gov. option and add that to onerous taxes on the insurance companies and that is just a short detour to a gov ONLY health care provider. It's a slipper slope and one best not traveled at all. Keep your eyes and ears open wide!
Posted by: nevergiveup at September 07, 2009 05:44 PM (TfW4T)
Posted by: Iskandar at September 07, 2009 05:45 PM (uAJI5)
21
Joe Kennedy will NOT be running for the US Senate.
That makes my long weekend. Kennedys should just go away.
That makes my long weekend. Kennedys should just go away.
Posted by: Ombudsman at September 07, 2009 05:45 PM (FQc3R)
22
Totally out of touch.
The Revolution is coming.
Jeebus, why don't they wear powdered wigs and make the parallel complete?
The Revolution is coming.
Jeebus, why don't they wear powdered wigs and make the parallel complete?
Posted by: eman at September 07, 2009 05:46 PM (UxbAN)
Posted by: nevergiveup at September 07, 2009 05:46 PM (TfW4T)
24
@12
You would think that someone would mention that the U.S. gov't is broke and there is no way in hell we can afford any of this stuff right now. Why doesn't someone just stand up and say it?
You would think that someone would mention that the U.S. gov't is broke and there is no way in hell we can afford any of this stuff right now. Why doesn't someone just stand up and say it?
Posted by: ishabibble at September 07, 2009 05:48 PM (Oa+R6)
Posted by: Charles Jean-son at September 07, 2009 05:49 PM (+FzLa)
Posted by: eman at September 07, 2009 05:49 PM (UxbAN)
27
So... I see the demoncraps are trying to make the rich in this country move to better tax climates. Say somewhere like Burundi?
Posted by: Rickshaw Jack at September 07, 2009 05:51 PM (6AynU)
28
What about the language that precludes illegals from receiving free health insurance, will that be in there?
What about the language that precludes illegals from receiving free health insurance, will that be in there?
Posted by: Tweet, Rabinowitz, Goldstein, & Lipschitz at September 07, 2009 05:53 PM (KICKO)
29
So... I see the demoncraps are trying to make the rich in this country move to better tax climates. Say somewhere like Burundi?
Or Bermuda. Just make sure you look under your golfcart for bombs if you go.
So... I see the demoncraps are trying to make the rich in this country move to better tax climates. Say somewhere like Burundi?
Or Bermuda. Just make sure you look under your golfcart for bombs if you go.
Posted by: Blazer at September 07, 2009 05:54 PM (+FzLa)
30
Hey, I like the MEGALICIOUS comments sprinkled in here...speak for yourself about the value of his/her schtick.
Posted by: Yo Bama at September 07, 2009 05:54 PM (+GSP9)
Posted by: Rickshaw Jack at September 07, 2009 05:54 PM (6AynU)
32
This is bullshit. If the Republicans go along with this crap, we'll gain nothing in 2010.
This plan won't 'fix' a damned thing.
This is bullshit. If the Republicans go along with this crap, we'll gain nothing in 2010.
This plan won't 'fix' a damned thing.
Posted by: Tweet, Rabinowitz, Goldstein, & Lipschitz at September 07, 2009 05:54 PM (KICKO)
33
Don't worry.
When the Chinese stop funding our bankrupt economy, we'll be too broke to afford anything anyway.
When the Chinese stop funding our bankrupt economy, we'll be too broke to afford anything anyway.
Posted by: TexasJew at September 07, 2009 05:55 PM (aUsM0)
34
What about the language that precludes illegals from receiving free health insurance, will that be in there?
It won't need to be, just what you think he plans on doing next ?
What about the language that precludes illegals from receiving free health insurance, will that be in there?
It won't need to be, just what you think he plans on doing next ?
Posted by: Blazer at September 07, 2009 05:55 PM (+FzLa)
35
If co-ops are so friggin great, why don't we allow the private sector to creat them?
If co-ops are so friggin great, why don't we allow the private sector to creat them?
Posted by: Tweet, Rabinowitz, Goldstein, & Lipschitz at September 07, 2009 05:56 PM (KICKO)
36
I haven't read it but I don't like it already. Why the fees and taxes for more expensive plans? I have Tricare which is not a great plan but it is better than nothing. Until last December, my former employer offered a plan as well and Tricare was second payer. If someone wants the best coverage they can buy, why should they be penalized for it?
We do not need to remake our entire system to fix the problems we have with it. There are many small things that can be done to make care more affordable. Two things come to mind right away but they will cost capital with the politicians although the benefits to the people of this country would be great. Those are increased competition and tort reform.
And what is this co-op stuff? Sounds to me like just another word for public option, e.g. government.
I'm sure some troll will sieze upon my Tricare to tell me that if I am getting free insurance why can't they. All I can say to that is that it was not free. It has been bought and paid for.
In this instance, I think the best thing the Republicans can do is stay the "party of no" for now. After this crap is defeated, a plan can be developed that doesn't give the government a fifth of our economy and doesn't mandate something they have no business mandating.
We do not need to remake our entire system to fix the problems we have with it. There are many small things that can be done to make care more affordable. Two things come to mind right away but they will cost capital with the politicians although the benefits to the people of this country would be great. Those are increased competition and tort reform.
And what is this co-op stuff? Sounds to me like just another word for public option, e.g. government.
I'm sure some troll will sieze upon my Tricare to tell me that if I am getting free insurance why can't they. All I can say to that is that it was not free. It has been bought and paid for.
In this instance, I think the best thing the Republicans can do is stay the "party of no" for now. After this crap is defeated, a plan can be developed that doesn't give the government a fifth of our economy and doesn't mandate something they have no business mandating.
Posted by: Bill R. at September 07, 2009 05:57 PM (EhlQq)
37
The bipartisan group also is considering a tax on insurance companiesthat provide expensive coverage plans.
Wow... what a concept.
So,sayI want to open a pizza parlor, but I can't afford it. Following the Democrat Wealth Creation plan, I just need to tax all the other pizza parlors to pay for my start-up and operating costs.
If only I had some way of enforcing that tax, like a byzantine index of tables and codes and a large group of strong-arm collectors.
Wow... what a concept.
So,sayI want to open a pizza parlor, but I can't afford it. Following the Democrat Wealth Creation plan, I just need to tax all the other pizza parlors to pay for my start-up and operating costs.
If only I had some way of enforcing that tax, like a byzantine index of tables and codes and a large group of strong-arm collectors.
Posted by: krakatoa at September 07, 2009 05:58 PM (P+oMN)
38
Question - Do the "Cadillac" plans help subsidize other plans? (i.e. do they take more money in than they pay out, thus lowering the cost of less expensive plans?)
If so, taxing them 1) is kind of like just adding an extra layer of bureaucracy to the matter, 2) penalizes all the other people that are insured by the company and 3) gives the government the power to decide who benefits from the "Cadillac" plans.
(sorry, but I'm too lazy and busy to google right now)
If so, taxing them 1) is kind of like just adding an extra layer of bureaucracy to the matter, 2) penalizes all the other people that are insured by the company and 3) gives the government the power to decide who benefits from the "Cadillac" plans.
(sorry, but I'm too lazy and busy to google right now)
Posted by: rockhead at September 07, 2009 05:58 PM (RykTt)
39
35:
Better question - if co-ops are so great, why didn't they form long ago?
All these government substitutes for, and barriers to, innovation are what's wrong with health care and 99% of the rest of it all.
Better question - if co-ops are so great, why didn't they form long ago?
All these government substitutes for, and barriers to, innovation are what's wrong with health care and 99% of the rest of it all.
Posted by: Yo Bama at September 07, 2009 05:59 PM (+GSP9)
40
if grassley signed on to support this debacle i am going to throw up. senator chuck grassley of iowa has always been a really decent guy, one of the few decent guys in the senate - which really says something! if he is signing on to this then there is just no hope for our government. we are doomed! doomed, i say!
Posted by: mistress overdone at September 07, 2009 06:00 PM (M4IOE)
41
Let the private sector 'fix' the health care industry!
Why are the Republicans falling for this bullshit conjured up crisis?
Let the private sector 'fix' the health care industry!
Why are the Republicans falling for this bullshit conjured up crisis?
Posted by: Tweet, Rabinowitz, Goldstein, & Lipschitz at September 07, 2009 06:01 PM (KICKO)
42
More RINO crap.
Why pass a bill a year before the Dims get their asses handed to them next November?
Why pass a bill a year before the Dims get their asses handed to them next November?
Posted by: TexasJew at September 07, 2009 06:01 PM (aUsM0)
43
If someone wants the best coverage they can buy, why should they be penalized for it?
Because you are a selfish evil monger if you want something better than your slacker neighbor, even if you worked for it. Good Lord, that is a Liberal core belief.
Because you are a selfish evil monger if you want something better than your slacker neighbor, even if you worked for it. Good Lord, that is a Liberal core belief.
Posted by: Johnathan E. at September 07, 2009 06:04 PM (dQdrY)
44
I don't know why republicans and everyone else for that matter against the government run plan doesn't point out that the government run plan will be allowed to compete in all 50 states. Private run plans cannot.
Let me add to this.
I don't know why republicans and everyone else for that matter against the government run plan doesn't point out that the government run plan will be allowed to compete in all 50 states. Private run plans cannot.
I sort of added to it. But what you said is damn good.
Let me add to this.
I don't know why republicans and everyone else for that matter against the government run plan doesn't point out that the government run plan will be allowed to compete in all 50 states. Private run plans cannot.
I sort of added to it. But what you said is damn good.
Posted by: WTF Capital Investments at September 07, 2009 06:04 PM (XDxut)
45
Because the GOP can't help themselves!!!
Who are they going to listen to, us? No way! They'll listen to the press.
Because the GOP can't help themselves!!!
Who are they going to listen to, us? No way! They'll listen to the press.
Posted by: Tweet, Rabinowitz, Goldstein, & Lipschitz at September 07, 2009 06:04 PM (KICKO)
46
O/T: Tami's got the link to Reagan's speech in the thread below. Needs its own thread or two.
Posted by: Mama AJ at September 07, 2009 06:06 PM (X6Zdh)
47
Let's pay for it by raising the tax on theater seats by about $20 per.
Posted by: Johnathan E. at September 07, 2009 06:07 PM (dQdrY)
48
More RINO crap.
Yea right. John Shadegg and Peter Hoekstra are a couple of RINOs. Get real. Shadegg's family goes way back in the Conservative movement, way back as is in Pre-Reagan.
Yea right. John Shadegg and Peter Hoekstra are a couple of RINOs. Get real. Shadegg's family goes way back in the Conservative movement, way back as is in Pre-Reagan.
Posted by: WTF Capital Investments at September 07, 2009 06:07 PM (XDxut)
49
I read the article by Hoekstra and Shadegg, and it didn't sound unreasonable, actually. Their point that the current health care industry is NOT a free market was dead-on. BlueCross and the rest of the insurance companies operate more like Soviet tractor factories in their customer responsiveness than private enterprises in a competitive market.
And why can't the health insurance industry operate like auto insurance? I would love for there to be a robust competition between health insurers, that brought good quality health care to an affordable level for everyone.
I am skeptical that it could work, though- unlike auto insurance, health care is by nature extremely expensive- good auto insurance can be bought for a couple hundred of dollars per month- is there any concievable health insurance that can be purchased so cheaply? Especially by individuals instead of massive group plans?
So at the end of the day, saying that the private market will be able to deliver affordable health care to say, a retail worker is just not a reasonable argument.
At some point, someone has to explain how a waitress with breast cancer can get chemo without the government intervening.
I haven't seen that argument yet.
And why can't the health insurance industry operate like auto insurance? I would love for there to be a robust competition between health insurers, that brought good quality health care to an affordable level for everyone.
I am skeptical that it could work, though- unlike auto insurance, health care is by nature extremely expensive- good auto insurance can be bought for a couple hundred of dollars per month- is there any concievable health insurance that can be purchased so cheaply? Especially by individuals instead of massive group plans?
So at the end of the day, saying that the private market will be able to deliver affordable health care to say, a retail worker is just not a reasonable argument.
At some point, someone has to explain how a waitress with breast cancer can get chemo without the government intervening.
I haven't seen that argument yet.
Posted by: ChipD at September 07, 2009 06:07 PM (NHwWM)
50
Because the GOP can't help themselves!!!
Who are they going to listen to, us? No way! They'll listen to the press.
Yep, and their patting themselves on the backs for getting rid of Van Jones and the presidents plummeting popularity even though they did none of the work.
Because the GOP can't help themselves!!!
Who are they going to listen to, us? No way! They'll listen to the press.
Yep, and their patting themselves on the backs for getting rid of Van Jones and the presidents plummeting popularity even though they did none of the work.
Posted by: Blazer at September 07, 2009 06:07 PM (+FzLa)
Posted by: phreshone at September 07, 2009 06:08 PM (wQx2m)
52
"Roughly 60% of all health care in America is employer-provided"
It was hard for me to read the rest of the excerpt due to the blood shooting out of my eyes. It drives me absolutely freakin' bonkers when these idiots can't seem to wrap their teeny little minds around the concept that health care and health insurance are not the same thing.
With all the supposed experts on the health care system pontificating aboutreform, it ends up being some guy that sells granola thathasthe best ideas presented so far.
It was hard for me to read the rest of the excerpt due to the blood shooting out of my eyes. It drives me absolutely freakin' bonkers when these idiots can't seem to wrap their teeny little minds around the concept that health care and health insurance are not the same thing.
With all the supposed experts on the health care system pontificating aboutreform, it ends up being some guy that sells granola thathasthe best ideas presented so far.
Posted by: gebrauchshund at September 07, 2009 06:08 PM (Et4iB)
53
Holy shit, I can see it now.
Enough Republicans will vote for this 'compromise' that it allow a handful of those phony-baloney blue dogs to vote against it.
Thus insuring the blue dogs reelection and snuffing our chances of gaining seats.
Holy shit, I can see it now.
Enough Republicans will vote for this 'compromise' that it allow a handful of those phony-baloney blue dogs to vote against it.
Thus insuring the blue dogs reelection and snuffing our chances of gaining seats.
Posted by: Tweet, Rabinowitz, Goldstein, & Lipschitz at September 07, 2009 06:11 PM (KICKO)
54
Hey GOP, are you listening?
Simply put, we will not gain seats in Congress if the American people see no clear-cut difference between Republicans and Democrats.
Hey GOP, are you listening?
Simply put, we will not gain seats in Congress if the American people see no clear-cut difference between Republicans and Democrats.
Posted by: Tweet, Rabinowitz, Goldstein, & Lipschitz at September 07, 2009 06:13 PM (KICKO)
55
KILL the BILL
'nuff said
Posted by: phreshone at September 07, 2009 06:08 PM (wQx2m)
that say's it all
'nuff said
Posted by: phreshone at September 07, 2009 06:08 PM (wQx2m)
that say's it all
Posted by: nevergiveup at September 07, 2009 06:13 PM (TfW4T)
56
This is just more smoke and mirrors. The bottom line is the far left will never allow anything to pass without a public option, and thats who the current crop of democrats answer to.
This is just more smoke and mirrors. The bottom line is the far left will never allow anything to pass without a public option, and thats who the current crop of democrats answer to.
Posted by: Blazer at September 07, 2009 06:13 PM (+FzLa)
57
With all the supposed experts on the health care system pontificating aboutreform, it ends up being some guy that sells granola thathasthe best ideas presented so far.
Posted by: gebrauchshund at September 07, 2009 06:08 PM (Et4iB)
Silly him. He must think this is about healthcare. What a rube. Probably didn't go to a good school.
Posted by: gebrauchshund at September 07, 2009 06:08 PM (Et4iB)
Silly him. He must think this is about healthcare. What a rube. Probably didn't go to a good school.
Posted by: Johnathan E. at September 07, 2009 06:14 PM (dQdrY)
Posted by: Sir Elliot at September 07, 2009 06:14 PM (DUNS7)
59
The thing- and I grant you, the Michigan congressfolks didn't have the space to address this- that is not addressed at all is that while they want to cover all Americans, they don't say anything about how to get there.
I'm working in an emergency room every Sunday evening as I try to get into medical school, and we saw in 6 hours at least 5 non-citizen families. These folks don't care about their credit rating in the US- if things get bad enough, they return to their country of origin.
Folks, we just paid for them. How is this going to be handled? The Michigan counterproposal has some interesting elements to it- but again, to truly cut costs, that means addressing everything that drives costs up- not just the ones that are politically convenient. If we're going to treat everyone who walks into an ER- and I have no problem with that on its face- then there need to be some rules on non-citizens.
I'm working in an emergency room every Sunday evening as I try to get into medical school, and we saw in 6 hours at least 5 non-citizen families. These folks don't care about their credit rating in the US- if things get bad enough, they return to their country of origin.
Folks, we just paid for them. How is this going to be handled? The Michigan counterproposal has some interesting elements to it- but again, to truly cut costs, that means addressing everything that drives costs up- not just the ones that are politically convenient. If we're going to treat everyone who walks into an ER- and I have no problem with that on its face- then there need to be some rules on non-citizens.
Posted by: tmi3rd at September 07, 2009 06:14 PM (MLaAD)
60
What are the mechanics for removing Baucus from that position? He needs to be moved into the basement next to the boilers.
Posted by: Dang Straights at September 07, 2009 06:15 PM (gE29v)
61
BTW- Sir Elliott-
I hear you, bro, but this pretty much is THE ISSUE that will define the next century. If the feds gain complete control of healthcare, then the socialists win, and the effects will be huge- across the income-earning spectrum.
I hear you, bro, but this pretty much is THE ISSUE that will define the next century. If the feds gain complete control of healthcare, then the socialists win, and the effects will be huge- across the income-earning spectrum.
Posted by: tmi3rd at September 07, 2009 06:16 PM (MLaAD)
62
"Silly him. He must think this is about healthcare. What a rube. Probably didn't go to a good school."
Good point.
Good point.
Posted by: gebrauchshund at September 07, 2009 06:17 PM (Et4iB)
63
This co-op proposal is just another "pick play" designed to take your attention off single payer and move it to a lesser evil, but with the end purpose of government control of all health care in America. Don't be fooled by the pick off! It's the same liberal feces laden agenda but with a new name.
This co-op proposal is just another "pick play" designed to take your attention off single payer and move it to a lesser evil, but with the end purpose of government control of all health care in America. Don't be fooled by the pick off! It's the same liberal feces laden agenda but with a new name.
Posted by: Fish at September 07, 2009 06:19 PM (FnA4R)
64
#49; oddly, I was just pricing private health insurance today. If you get health insurance that's actually insurance and not a "pay for everything, and add in lots of administrative costs to pay for shuffling the money around" plan, it does go below $200. The ones I looked at were $149-$177 (Aetna) and $116-$159 (Anthem Blue Cross). The former also included dental.
The key phrase to look for is "high deductible" health insurance. You don't expect your auto insurance to pay for tune-ups and inflating your tires (iykwimaityd). (If auto insurance did act like health "insurance" today, tune-ups would cost a lot more. And you'd get charged for stupid shit like putting air in your tires.)
The key phrase to look for is "high deductible" health insurance. You don't expect your auto insurance to pay for tune-ups and inflating your tires (iykwimaityd). (If auto insurance did act like health "insurance" today, tune-ups would cost a lot more. And you'd get charged for stupid shit like putting air in your tires.)
Posted by: Jerry at September 07, 2009 06:19 PM (7Ahkq)
65
Folks, we just paid for them. How is this going to be handled? The
Michigan counterproposal has some interesting elements to it- but
again, to truly cut costs, that means addressing everything that drives
costs up- not just the ones that are politically convenient. If we're
going to treat everyone who walks into an ER- and I have no problem
with that on its face- then there need to be some rules on non-citizens.
Excellent point. Since we'll be adding millions to the roles of the insured who pay little or no taxes and are probably in the worst of health without adding a comparable number of doctors and staff and facilities to handle the deluge, this is going to end up turning a small kitchen blaze into a full blown prairie fire.
Michigan counterproposal has some interesting elements to it- but
again, to truly cut costs, that means addressing everything that drives
costs up- not just the ones that are politically convenient. If we're
going to treat everyone who walks into an ER- and I have no problem
with that on its face- then there need to be some rules on non-citizens.
Excellent point. Since we'll be adding millions to the roles of the insured who pay little or no taxes and are probably in the worst of health without adding a comparable number of doctors and staff and facilities to handle the deluge, this is going to end up turning a small kitchen blaze into a full blown prairie fire.
Posted by: Blazer at September 07, 2009 06:20 PM (+FzLa)
66
>>>You don't expect your auto insurance to pay for tune-ups and inflating your tires (iykwimaityd). (If auto insurance did act like health "insurance" today, tune-ups would cost a lot more. And you'd get charged for stupid shit like putting air in your tires.)
yet that's what Obama's 'reform' will do!
Good analogy.
yet that's what Obama's 'reform' will do!
Good analogy.
Posted by: Tweet, Rabinowitz, Goldstein, & Lipschitz at September 07, 2009 06:24 PM (KICKO)
67
I'm working in an emergency room every Sunday evening as I try to get
into medical school, and we saw in 6 hours at least 5 non-citizen
families. These folks don't care about their credit rating in the US-
if things get bad enough, they return to their country of origin.
Posted by: tmi3rd at September 07, 2009 06:14 PM (MLaAD)
Why that's the reason we need to pass Comprehensive Immigration Reform! Make them all citizens or give them Green Cards and presto! We have no more 'illegal' immigrants and everyone is covered.
See? It's all connected.
Seriously though, this is why we need to control the border and get serious about reducing the number of illegals through attrition.
We are simply never going to deny emergency medical care to people and 'emergency' will be defined down to 'preventative wellness programs'.
into medical school, and we saw in 6 hours at least 5 non-citizen
families. These folks don't care about their credit rating in the US-
if things get bad enough, they return to their country of origin.
Posted by: tmi3rd at September 07, 2009 06:14 PM (MLaAD)
Why that's the reason we need to pass Comprehensive Immigration Reform! Make them all citizens or give them Green Cards and presto! We have no more 'illegal' immigrants and everyone is covered.
See? It's all connected.
Seriously though, this is why we need to control the border and get serious about reducing the number of illegals through attrition.
We are simply never going to deny emergency medical care to people and 'emergency' will be defined down to 'preventative wellness programs'.
Posted by: DrewM. at September 07, 2009 06:30 PM (iTt2X)
68
And you'd get charged for stupid shit like putting air in your tires.)<<< Ha, have you been to a gas station lately? Also, off topic, the newest and best ripoff yet of maechanics is now the nitrogen thing in your tires. All that is is air without the oxygen. It's cleaner anddryer so it doesn't promote combustion or rust, great for airplanes, irrelevant for cars, and doesn't stay in your tires any longer than good old air.
Posted by: Bill R. at September 07, 2009 06:31 PM (EhlQq)
69
I'm quite tired of the half-assed "fixes" approaches. The Left has a goal, then tries to shape the best policy they can get away with that will further their interests down the road. They aren't "just" adding the uninsured Americans to Medicaid and paying the resulting bill - they're always trying to rearrange the fundamental structure to either directly improve their own power and control, or in order to manufacture situations that are more amenable to their policies later.
"Conservative" has meant "I'm in favor of the status quo" for so long that our policies tend to be summed up as "No!" or technical fixes to obvious hot spots (tort reform). But they never revolve around "How do we kill this as an issue such that the Leftists won't have a leg to stand on if they bring it up again?"
President Bush's "Ownership Society" ran aground on Social Security. And several aspects are a mighty tough slog from here, but some pieces seem like a decent framework to at least aim for.
A per-citizen IRA-like "Medical Savings Account" with no taxes on money going in or out would be my choice. The single non-"Conservative" aspect would be adding "Thou shalt put at least XX% of your income into your account yearly unless you can show that the current value of the account is (say) double the median lifetime medical expenditures."
I find the government ordering me to save my own money far more conservative than the government taking the money directly. And even at minimum wage for one's entire working lifetime with not a single raise, you end up with like $250,000 accumulating in the account at just 5% of your payroll being diverted into "strictly CDs" type investing.
That's completely ignoring how death, heirs, children, families and spouses should all work - which is: no taxes on any transfer from one MSA to any other.
Die young? Your funds go directly into your heirs accounts. Sprightly old grandma who was sensible all along but finally runs out -> family can help pay at no penalty.
If we have to tax the rich, do it thusly: First call something "the limit" - like the current median lifetime medical expenditure. Anything up to the limit, not one dime of tax. Anything contributed to someone else's account up to the limit - again, not one dime of tax. The slowly add the progressive taxation as a ratio of "the limit". That is: from the limit to double the limit, tax = 1% coming out. This tax would be earmarked explicitly to go directly and immediately into someone else's MSA. (My preferred version would include a note indicating who has been forced to donate the money, and actually wouldn't go through the government at all.)
By arranging the tax in this fashion, you're getting the wealthy to at least spread the wealth to people they somewhat like directly before the government steps in. This also gets the money flowing downhill a lot faster.
No, I don't think this would work right this second. Getting the MSA "filled" in the first damn place takes time and work. Just like nearly anything useful.
But the cost of the framework isn't expensive, and would seem like a worthy goal. Not a bargaining chip to be sacrificed along the route to a compromise, but as a core piece.
"Conservative" has meant "I'm in favor of the status quo" for so long that our policies tend to be summed up as "No!" or technical fixes to obvious hot spots (tort reform). But they never revolve around "How do we kill this as an issue such that the Leftists won't have a leg to stand on if they bring it up again?"
President Bush's "Ownership Society" ran aground on Social Security. And several aspects are a mighty tough slog from here, but some pieces seem like a decent framework to at least aim for.
A per-citizen IRA-like "Medical Savings Account" with no taxes on money going in or out would be my choice. The single non-"Conservative" aspect would be adding "Thou shalt put at least XX% of your income into your account yearly unless you can show that the current value of the account is (say) double the median lifetime medical expenditures."
I find the government ordering me to save my own money far more conservative than the government taking the money directly. And even at minimum wage for one's entire working lifetime with not a single raise, you end up with like $250,000 accumulating in the account at just 5% of your payroll being diverted into "strictly CDs" type investing.
That's completely ignoring how death, heirs, children, families and spouses should all work - which is: no taxes on any transfer from one MSA to any other.
Die young? Your funds go directly into your heirs accounts. Sprightly old grandma who was sensible all along but finally runs out -> family can help pay at no penalty.
If we have to tax the rich, do it thusly: First call something "the limit" - like the current median lifetime medical expenditure. Anything up to the limit, not one dime of tax. Anything contributed to someone else's account up to the limit - again, not one dime of tax. The slowly add the progressive taxation as a ratio of "the limit". That is: from the limit to double the limit, tax = 1% coming out. This tax would be earmarked explicitly to go directly and immediately into someone else's MSA. (My preferred version would include a note indicating who has been forced to donate the money, and actually wouldn't go through the government at all.)
By arranging the tax in this fashion, you're getting the wealthy to at least spread the wealth to people they somewhat like directly before the government steps in. This also gets the money flowing downhill a lot faster.
No, I don't think this would work right this second. Getting the MSA "filled" in the first damn place takes time and work. Just like nearly anything useful.
But the cost of the framework isn't expensive, and would seem like a worthy goal. Not a bargaining chip to be sacrificed along the route to a compromise, but as a core piece.
Posted by: Al at September 07, 2009 06:31 PM (VtygY)
70
- good auto insurance can be bought for a couple hundred of dollars per
month- is there any concievable health insurance that can be purchased
so cheaply? Especially by individuals instead of massive group plans?
Uhm, yeah. I pay about $127 for an HSA with a $5000 deductible.
month- is there any concievable health insurance that can be purchased
so cheaply? Especially by individuals instead of massive group plans?
Uhm, yeah. I pay about $127 for an HSA with a $5000 deductible.
Posted by: Insured Individual at September 07, 2009 06:33 PM (aVzyR)
71
The illegal immigrant issue cannot be separated from the health care issue. I say we station ICE in every ER and give them their medical care and then a ticket back to their country of origin. Finish the wall on our southern border and then press with HC reform. If you check everyone's ID, you cannot be accused of profiling.
Posted by: Bill R. at September 07, 2009 06:35 PM (EhlQq)
72
You guys would be amazed at how often I masturbate to the JC Penny boys underwear section.
Posted by: Allen Glines at September 07, 2009 06:38 PM (WPWkk)
Posted by: rockhead at September 07, 2009 06:42 PM (RykTt)
74
The bottom line is the far left will never allow anything to pass
without a public option, and thats who the current crop of democrats
answer to.
So what. The far left is about 15% of the entire population. They probably vote at rates higher than the average American which accounts for the 30% representation in the Congress.
Make them vote against reform. Make Obama VETO an actual health insurance reform bill. If need be, make the Senate Democrats filibuster a bill.
It's unlikey to happen since the Democrats can just kill every bill in Committee, but that doesn't mean you can't make them own the political risk for doing so.
without a public option, and thats who the current crop of democrats
answer to.
So what. The far left is about 15% of the entire population. They probably vote at rates higher than the average American which accounts for the 30% representation in the Congress.
Make them vote against reform. Make Obama VETO an actual health insurance reform bill. If need be, make the Senate Democrats filibuster a bill.
It's unlikey to happen since the Democrats can just kill every bill in Committee, but that doesn't mean you can't make them own the political risk for doing so.
Posted by: WTF Capital Investments at September 07, 2009 06:53 PM (XDxut)
75
I think it makes sense for the Republicans to offer alternative proposals to preclude the argument that "the Democrat plan is the only game in town."
There is a concomitant argument useful here, that it behooves the GOP to point out that the Demotards have pretty much refused to listen to anyone on the other side of the aisle... so the only game in town is the Demotards' game, because that is how the Demotards play. Shutting out competing ideas.
There is a concomitant argument useful here, that it behooves the GOP to point out that the Demotards have pretty much refused to listen to anyone on the other side of the aisle... so the only game in town is the Demotards' game, because that is how the Demotards play. Shutting out competing ideas.
Posted by: George Orwell at September 07, 2009 06:55 PM (AZGON)
Posted by: Lace Wigs at September 07, 2009 07:00 PM (JamGx)
77
Oh look, it's amateur threadjack hour!
Posted by: Methos at September 07, 2009 07:01 PM (q6RmE)
78
#49...Do you do 10k worth of damage to your car evry year or so? You pay higher auto for a 'Vette and have 5 speeding tickets. No?
Posted by: hutch1200 at September 07, 2009 07:22 PM (/yNg2)
79
We don't need no stinking Health Reform plan.
What we need is to fix the shit we have now. Which will be very difficult and cost a fortune until we get it right.
But it will be a hellva lot more affordable than anything the crats can come up with.
Plus of course...Tort Reform...in the most strict manner.
Plus an incentive or two to help out those that want to be doctors or Nurses.
Cause we don't have enough and I'm sick and tired of trying to understand what some Pak or Indian is trying to say to me and trying to get him to understand what I say.
But we know that we don't have the votes nor the will power to continue the fight against the democrats and the Facists. Conservatives just don't have the time (we are working don't you know) nor the disposition (we are not rabid rabble rousers). to carry this fight much more.
Pity, because the only thing at stake is our Republic.
For which we are supposed to stand.
Papa Ray
West Texas
"The Second Amendment is a
doomsday provision, one designed for those exceptionally rare
circumstances where all other rights have failed - where the
government refuses to stand for reelection and silences those who
protest; where courts have lost the courage to oppose, or can find no
one to enforce their decrees. However improbable these contingencies
may seem today, facing them unprepared is a mistake a free people get
to make only once." 2009 Judge Alex Kozinski
What we need is to fix the shit we have now. Which will be very difficult and cost a fortune until we get it right.
But it will be a hellva lot more affordable than anything the crats can come up with.
Plus of course...Tort Reform...in the most strict manner.
Plus an incentive or two to help out those that want to be doctors or Nurses.
Cause we don't have enough and I'm sick and tired of trying to understand what some Pak or Indian is trying to say to me and trying to get him to understand what I say.
But we know that we don't have the votes nor the will power to continue the fight against the democrats and the Facists. Conservatives just don't have the time (we are working don't you know) nor the disposition (we are not rabid rabble rousers). to carry this fight much more.
Pity, because the only thing at stake is our Republic.
For which we are supposed to stand.
Papa Ray
West Texas
"The Second Amendment is a
doomsday provision, one designed for those exceptionally rare
circumstances where all other rights have failed - where the
government refuses to stand for reelection and silences those who
protest; where courts have lost the courage to oppose, or can find no
one to enforce their decrees. However improbable these contingencies
may seem today, facing them unprepared is a mistake a free people get
to make only once." 2009 Judge Alex Kozinski
Posted by: Papa Ray at September 07, 2009 07:37 PM (JpVJn)
80
Ifgovernment options and competition are so great, why not give us an option with social security? I mean, if competition is so great and everything?
Posted by: Knaws at September 07, 2009 07:55 PM (H9yZ/)
81
@#64-
Thanks for the response-
Actually, the problem is just what you stated- that for that "one low price" you get "semi-care"; insuranve that covers very little, and even then after a $3,000, or $5,000 deductible.
For a single parent and dependent, the cost of covering what you can reasonably expect to go wrong is closer to $1,000/ month, or about half of what a lot of retail/ service workers earn.
This doesn't begin to touch the phenomenon of people who pay their premiums faithfully, then get cancelled when they actually get sick- and good luck finding a new company that will accept a subscriber with a pre-existing condition!
I guess we could ask, why are we having this debate? If health insurance was as easy and cheap as computers or toasters why wouldn't all these uninsured people just go out and buy it?
Thanks for the response-
Actually, the problem is just what you stated- that for that "one low price" you get "semi-care"; insuranve that covers very little, and even then after a $3,000, or $5,000 deductible.
For a single parent and dependent, the cost of covering what you can reasonably expect to go wrong is closer to $1,000/ month, or about half of what a lot of retail/ service workers earn.
This doesn't begin to touch the phenomenon of people who pay their premiums faithfully, then get cancelled when they actually get sick- and good luck finding a new company that will accept a subscriber with a pre-existing condition!
I guess we could ask, why are we having this debate? If health insurance was as easy and cheap as computers or toasters why wouldn't all these uninsured people just go out and buy it?
Posted by: ChipD at September 07, 2009 07:56 PM (NHwWM)
82
If something's too expensive (supposedly) to begin with we should... tax it more? That's their solution? Brilliant.
"I know what stomach cancer looks like. I've seen it, and you don't eat
three cheeseburgers a day with french fries when you got it."
"I know what stomach cancer looks like. I've seen it, and you don't eat
three cheeseburgers a day with french fries when you got it."
Posted by: LikeATimeBomb at September 07, 2009 07:56 PM (J6xq2)
83
The political disagreement is not whether to cover everyone, but how to do so.
The political disagreement between the RINO's and the Dems, perhaps. What sort of real conservative or libertarian believes that it is the governments role to "cover everyone"?
The WSJ (whose motto is "There shall be open borders") is a big part of the reason why America is slouching towards communism. I'd take anything on its pages with more than the RDA of salt.
The political disagreement between the RINO's and the Dems, perhaps. What sort of real conservative or libertarian believes that it is the governments role to "cover everyone"?
The WSJ (whose motto is "There shall be open borders") is a big part of the reason why America is slouching towards communism. I'd take anything on its pages with more than the RDA of salt.
Posted by: flenser at September 07, 2009 07:57 PM (rCuZk)
84
Hey, Chip
Texas Health Insurance Risk Pool
http://www.txhealthpool.com/
Got it covered. Step away from the healthcare takeover.
Texas Health Insurance Risk Pool
http://www.txhealthpool.com/
Got it covered. Step away from the healthcare takeover.
Posted by: Johnathan E. at September 07, 2009 08:14 PM (dQdrY)
Posted by: Hidden Imam at September 07, 2009 08:20 PM (z/8AK)
86
It is not, has never been, nor will it ever be my responsibility to pay for health insurance for illegal aliens, the lazy, the stupid, and the criminal.
This whole fight is about Democrats trying to feed more free lollipops to their entitlement-addicted voters.
Obama and his whole freak show administration couldn't care less about the truly needy.
This whole fight is about Democrats trying to feed more free lollipops to their entitlement-addicted voters.
Obama and his whole freak show administration couldn't care less about the truly needy.
Posted by: sifty at September 07, 2009 08:21 PM (sKg3u)
Posted by: Hidden Imam at September 07, 2009 08:21 PM (z/8AK)
88
The public option is only a protest trigger. What about the other mandates like IRS oversight or every American citizen, fines and penalties for nonconformity. This piece of crap monstrocity is just rouse to gain total control of the populace. There is so much out and out theft in the existing system now andabuse in theform of illegals getting coverage no wonder programs are going bankrupt.W liked tort reform. The only like I could find was an opposing view point but you get the idea. http://tinyurl.com/n37vy6 I think it hs to be a combination of things to bring costs to a managable level. Besides Doctors and Laywers and most professionals get paid too much anyway. They are the ones driving the bus while we are paying the gas bill.
Posted by: sonnyspats at September 07, 2009 08:26 PM (kM/ZI)
89
link*
Posted by: sonnyspats at September 07, 2009 08:26 PM (kM/ZI)
90
The republicans are about to lose, again. Once you agree to the basic principal of the left that EVERYONE has an ENTITLEMENT to health care at public expense and the government has a role to play, everything else is detail. ANY government option plan, however disguised, will inevitably expand, until the private sector health insurance is squeezed to death and public health care run by the government is de facto the only health care available (except of course for the favored governing classes: union workers, government workers, congress, and the prsident).
So, we start with government run co-ops paid for by taxing you through your insurance companies. Soon, there will be 12 million or so illegal aliens in those co-ops and they will need more money to run them. More taxes, less service from the private plans. In a couple of years, senator X will propose a new expansion of the co-ops, to cover the "children" you know, and there will be more taxes to pay it, more government regulation to control it, and so on. In at most 20 years and probably a lot less, private health insurance will be a fond memory.
Of course, there will never be enough money to pay for everyone to have everything in health care, so get ready for death panels, rationing by waiting lists, and quiet decisions by unaccountable bureaucrats to just let the old and sick die in government hospitals, as they do now in England. Get used to the idea of waiting 2 years or more for an MRI, of letting your local government worker decide if you really need that new knee or hip, if you deserve cancer treatment or not, and so on.
So, we start with government run co-ops paid for by taxing you through your insurance companies. Soon, there will be 12 million or so illegal aliens in those co-ops and they will need more money to run them. More taxes, less service from the private plans. In a couple of years, senator X will propose a new expansion of the co-ops, to cover the "children" you know, and there will be more taxes to pay it, more government regulation to control it, and so on. In at most 20 years and probably a lot less, private health insurance will be a fond memory.
Of course, there will never be enough money to pay for everyone to have everything in health care, so get ready for death panels, rationing by waiting lists, and quiet decisions by unaccountable bureaucrats to just let the old and sick die in government hospitals, as they do now in England. Get used to the idea of waiting 2 years or more for an MRI, of letting your local government worker decide if you really need that new knee or hip, if you deserve cancer treatment or not, and so on.
Posted by: BattleofthePyramids at September 07, 2009 08:28 PM (rybNm)
91
The only safe thing is to purge Snowe now. If she isn't a Republican, then no republican voted for it.
Posted by: Johnathan E. at September 07, 2009 08:32 PM (dQdrY)
92
I like the idea that we have a positive set of proposals so we don't get flacked withall the"meany grandma and baby-hating Republicans don't want to fix health care because they're in the insurance industry's pocket" garbage that always comes out at times like this. Sadly, it gets some traction every time, particularly in the Rust Belt where I once resided.
The danger in this of course is in conceding your adversary's premise that some form of reform is presently necessary, but health care is actually in poor shape andwe had a hand in the17 billion Med-D fiasco, so I see "reality-based" healthcare reform as a worthy goal, but onlyso long as in the end it shrinks government's involvement rather than just shifting things around. If that's not doable, then I'd say no reform is better than more of the same or something even worse.
The danger in this of course is in conceding your adversary's premise that some form of reform is presently necessary, but health care is actually in poor shape andwe had a hand in the17 billion Med-D fiasco, so I see "reality-based" healthcare reform as a worthy goal, but onlyso long as in the end it shrinks government's involvement rather than just shifting things around. If that's not doable, then I'd say no reform is better than more of the same or something even worse.
Posted by: societyis2blame at September 07, 2009 08:46 PM (rPDD/)
93
Sorry - 17 trillion, not billion... Man this new Obama math is kicking my ass.
Posted by: societyis2blame at September 07, 2009 08:48 PM (rPDD/)
94
@84-
I read the outline and rates- if I have this right-
For my example waitress, aged 45-50 years old, for a $3,000 deductible, the monthly premium (depending on area) is around $600.
For one person. Her children would cost a couple hundred apiece, bringing it up to about $1,000 or about half her take home pay.
As long as health insurance is this costly, we will continue to have the debate over how to make sure that everyone can get access to health care.
It isn't going away- we are going to have to find a solution.
I read the outline and rates- if I have this right-
For my example waitress, aged 45-50 years old, for a $3,000 deductible, the monthly premium (depending on area) is around $600.
For one person. Her children would cost a couple hundred apiece, bringing it up to about $1,000 or about half her take home pay.
As long as health insurance is this costly, we will continue to have the debate over how to make sure that everyone can get access to health care.
It isn't going away- we are going to have to find a solution.
Posted by: ChipD at September 07, 2009 08:59 PM (NHwWM)
95
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Posted by: jason at September 07, 2009 09:09 PM (0fSDg)
96
"The time for the Republicans to propose something (if we must at all) next year in the run up to the elections. For now it's better to
just keep on the attack."
And finally the truth escapes. Now personally Obama just annoys me on many many levels and the Democrats in Congress are the very definition of poltroon, but the PROBLEM with politics is precisely the above quoted thought patterns.
No matter what type of Administration is in Washington it will ALWAYS "be
better to just keep on the attack." And it's ALWAYS ' next year in the run up to the elections. Always.
Nothing constructive or sustainable ever gets done(which appears to satisfy the 'conservative' demand for 'limited' Government but really does no such thing, Things do get done --- it's just that they are almost always BAD THINGS.), but the 'political' attacks just keep on coming.
The 'true' path to defeating the Democrats and their unholy allies is not to be like them but to propose and deliver a viable alternative. Allowing the status quo to just stagger on until it expires from sheer exhaustion is not a good choice. Everyone knows that 'reform is required. And not just in health care.
It's a time for IDEAS not a time for POLITICS.
Crush Obama AND propose solutions that actually might work. That is the way to long-term success. Simplistic opposition ---- Not So Much. It might win in 2010 but it will lose in 2014 or 16 or 18 or 20 and the ridiculous cycle continues. We deserve something better than a Fool's Parade with the only changes being the respective identities of the Fools.
Our Fools -- Their Fools ! Who cares ? -- The operative Word is Fools.
just keep on the attack."
And finally the truth escapes. Now personally Obama just annoys me on many many levels and the Democrats in Congress are the very definition of poltroon, but the PROBLEM with politics is precisely the above quoted thought patterns.
No matter what type of Administration is in Washington it will ALWAYS "be
better to just keep on the attack." And it's ALWAYS ' next year in the run up to the elections. Always.
Nothing constructive or sustainable ever gets done(which appears to satisfy the 'conservative' demand for 'limited' Government but really does no such thing, Things do get done --- it's just that they are almost always BAD THINGS.), but the 'political' attacks just keep on coming.
The 'true' path to defeating the Democrats and their unholy allies is not to be like them but to propose and deliver a viable alternative. Allowing the status quo to just stagger on until it expires from sheer exhaustion is not a good choice. Everyone knows that 'reform is required. And not just in health care.
It's a time for IDEAS not a time for POLITICS.
Crush Obama AND propose solutions that actually might work. That is the way to long-term success. Simplistic opposition ---- Not So Much. It might win in 2010 but it will lose in 2014 or 16 or 18 or 20 and the ridiculous cycle continues. We deserve something better than a Fool's Parade with the only changes being the respective identities of the Fools.
Our Fools -- Their Fools ! Who cares ? -- The operative Word is Fools.
Posted by: Dougf at September 07, 2009 09:29 PM (16GPT)
Posted by: Winston Smith at September 07, 2009 09:40 PM (OuFCz)
98
Posted by: Dougf at September 07, 2009 09:29 PM (16GPT)
Dude, the Democrats have a 78 seat majority in the House, a 19 seat majority in the Senate (it will be 20 when Kennedy is replaced) and the White House.
Why exactly should the Republicans propose anything at this point? It's not like it will pass or even get a vote.
Having a super-majority in both houses means actually having to govern. I know that's not as much fun as blaming Bush for everything but they wanted it and now they've got it.
It's not the responsibility of the minority to set the legislative agenda.
Dude, the Democrats have a 78 seat majority in the House, a 19 seat majority in the Senate (it will be 20 when Kennedy is replaced) and the White House.
Why exactly should the Republicans propose anything at this point? It's not like it will pass or even get a vote.
Having a super-majority in both houses means actually having to govern. I know that's not as much fun as blaming Bush for everything but they wanted it and now they've got it.
It's not the responsibility of the minority to set the legislative agenda.
Posted by: DrewM. at September 07, 2009 09:46 PM (iTt2X)
99
I cannot believe what I am hearing from some here. Come up witha Government solutionalternative to the Democrat'sSocialist plansto meet our "health care crisis"?
The crisis being.. umm... everyone who currently needs health care can get it whether they can afford insurance or not?
So we're doubling down on stupid now? McCain's loss wasn't enough of a confirmation that going Democrat-lite is a losing proposition. Well let me make this perfectly clear.
Not with my vote. I will not vote for any person voting for this or any other Socialist plan for the Health care industry, be that plan by a Democrat, or by a Republican pantywaist craving the adulation of the pretty people.
People, we are not that far removed from the days when the concept of free health care as a right was not only laughable, access to health care itself was africk'n luxury. This mad rush away from the precepts that personal responsibility and common senseare the best insurance against disastrous health issues is, well, mad.
The Conservative alternative to Government take-over of the Health Insurance industry is this:
Open up the market toindustrious non-Governmentcompetition.
Tort reform.
How's about we give those two options a chance before we sell out what little financial stability we have left to the pipe dream Utopia where everyone gets free health care courtesy of 24 carat gold skittles falling like mana from the ass of Obama's pretty pretty unicorn.
The crisis being.. umm... everyone who currently needs health care can get it whether they can afford insurance or not?
So we're doubling down on stupid now? McCain's loss wasn't enough of a confirmation that going Democrat-lite is a losing proposition. Well let me make this perfectly clear.
Not with my vote. I will not vote for any person voting for this or any other Socialist plan for the Health care industry, be that plan by a Democrat, or by a Republican pantywaist craving the adulation of the pretty people.
People, we are not that far removed from the days when the concept of free health care as a right was not only laughable, access to health care itself was africk'n luxury. This mad rush away from the precepts that personal responsibility and common senseare the best insurance against disastrous health issues is, well, mad.
The Conservative alternative to Government take-over of the Health Insurance industry is this:
Open up the market toindustrious non-Governmentcompetition.
Tort reform.
How's about we give those two options a chance before we sell out what little financial stability we have left to the pipe dream Utopia where everyone gets free health care courtesy of 24 carat gold skittles falling like mana from the ass of Obama's pretty pretty unicorn.
Posted by: krakatoa at September 07, 2009 10:12 PM (P+oMN)
100
@81, if you can "reasonably expect" to have some expenses, insurance can't cover it without making it even more expensive. Insurance is to insure against unexpected expenses.
By using insurance to pay for expected expenses, you're raising the cost of those expenses by adding an unnecessary middleman (or several unnecessary middlemen). So instead of having to pay the doctor, you have to pay whoever your employer uses to negotiate transferring your money to the company that is paying the doctor; and whoever that company is using to negotiate a price with the doctor, and whoever has to fill out the paperwork necessary to route your money from your employer to the company paying the doctor to the doctor.
The money to pay for health care has to come from somewhere; and the more people who get between you and your doctor, the more people there are who have to be paid.
Having the money taken out of paychecks hides that cost, but the cost is still there and the employee is still the one paying for it. Add government bureaucrats to the mix and it gets even more expensive; and while the costs might be more hidden they're still there. And it will still be the employee paying them.
If computers and toasters were distributed through employee-sponsored computer and toaster plans with the government using massive regulations to drive computer and toaster business towards those plans, (a) computers and toasters would get far more expensive and (b) they would be far less useful, because (c) computer and toaster manufacturers would focus their efforts on employers, ignoring the needs of the person actually using the computer and toaster.
The result most likely would be a combination computer and toaster that did neither well. And when Republicans started talking about decoupling computers from toasters, Democrats would act like they were trying to steal toast from the mouths of the poor. "Private computoasters are too expensive!" they'd cry, ignoring the policies that made them so expensive. Then they'd take the very policies that made computoasters expensive and try to enshrine them in an even more expensive public computoaster option.
By using insurance to pay for expected expenses, you're raising the cost of those expenses by adding an unnecessary middleman (or several unnecessary middlemen). So instead of having to pay the doctor, you have to pay whoever your employer uses to negotiate transferring your money to the company that is paying the doctor; and whoever that company is using to negotiate a price with the doctor, and whoever has to fill out the paperwork necessary to route your money from your employer to the company paying the doctor to the doctor.
The money to pay for health care has to come from somewhere; and the more people who get between you and your doctor, the more people there are who have to be paid.
Having the money taken out of paychecks hides that cost, but the cost is still there and the employee is still the one paying for it. Add government bureaucrats to the mix and it gets even more expensive; and while the costs might be more hidden they're still there. And it will still be the employee paying them.
If computers and toasters were distributed through employee-sponsored computer and toaster plans with the government using massive regulations to drive computer and toaster business towards those plans, (a) computers and toasters would get far more expensive and (b) they would be far less useful, because (c) computer and toaster manufacturers would focus their efforts on employers, ignoring the needs of the person actually using the computer and toaster.
The result most likely would be a combination computer and toaster that did neither well. And when Republicans started talking about decoupling computers from toasters, Democrats would act like they were trying to steal toast from the mouths of the poor. "Private computoasters are too expensive!" they'd cry, ignoring the policies that made them so expensive. Then they'd take the very policies that made computoasters expensive and try to enshrine them in an even more expensive public computoaster option.
Posted by: Jerry at September 07, 2009 10:33 PM (7Ahkq)
101
Oh, and bacon would be illegal. Just sayin'.
Posted by: Jerry at September 07, 2009 10:34 PM (7Ahkq)
102
It isn't going away- we are going to have to find a solution.
Posted by: ChipD at September 07, 2009 08:59 PM (NHwWM)
That is for honest people. And did you notice the aid part? People don't buy into that until they get sick, so the ratesseem high. They are allowed to wait til they get sick. And it does not result in a police state. Win.
Posted by: ChipD at September 07, 2009 08:59 PM (NHwWM)
That is for honest people. And did you notice the aid part? People don't buy into that until they get sick, so the ratesseem high. They are allowed to wait til they get sick. And it does not result in a police state. Win.
Posted by: Johnathan E. at September 07, 2009 11:19 PM (dQdrY)
103
@#99:
"everyone who currently needs health care can get it whether they can afford insurance or not..."
Actually, no- if you can't afford chemotherapy and don't have insurance, you don't get it.
Period.
And #100, you make a very good point- that the reason toasters are so cheap is that the gov't is not involved in them.
I would add that toasters are rationed- those who can afford them, get them; those who can't, don't.
Social Security and Medicare are examples of what national health insurance would look like- big, clumsy, and inefficient. But better than having nothing at all. (or does someone here want to make the argument that both should be eliminated?)
Again, no one here is really following the lines of logic to their conclusion- are we going to provide health care to those who can't afford it?
If not, lets just say that clearly- that we do in fact intend to push sick people out into the street.
Otherwise, we need to figure out how to provide it, and so far, only the Dems are involved in that discussion.
"everyone who currently needs health care can get it whether they can afford insurance or not..."
Actually, no- if you can't afford chemotherapy and don't have insurance, you don't get it.
Period.
And #100, you make a very good point- that the reason toasters are so cheap is that the gov't is not involved in them.
I would add that toasters are rationed- those who can afford them, get them; those who can't, don't.
Social Security and Medicare are examples of what national health insurance would look like- big, clumsy, and inefficient. But better than having nothing at all. (or does someone here want to make the argument that both should be eliminated?)
Again, no one here is really following the lines of logic to their conclusion- are we going to provide health care to those who can't afford it?
If not, lets just say that clearly- that we do in fact intend to push sick people out into the street.
Otherwise, we need to figure out how to provide it, and so far, only the Dems are involved in that discussion.
Posted by: ChipD at September 07, 2009 11:30 PM (NHwWM)
104
1. Cost of insurance (or care) will not go down because the Boomer generation is getting old with increasingly expensive HC needs. Boomers will NOT be covered by Medicare for quite a few years, not that dumping more expensive care onto Medicare will solve any problems. In other words, anyone who says they can make community insurance cheaper is just lying to you.
2. Government protected price fixing scams have created the warped health care marketplace that most everyone recognizes much of the problem. Congress has passed antitrust laws that allow health insurance (and government) to negotiate prices with providers. This price fixing between government and insurance with providers creates a warped market that is generally insensitive to market competition with lots of room for cost shifting to cover huge deficits created by under paying government health care programs. In other words, politicians have created this scam to protect their weak assed health care welfare programs (Medicare and Medicaid).
2. Government protected price fixing scams have created the warped health care marketplace that most everyone recognizes much of the problem. Congress has passed antitrust laws that allow health insurance (and government) to negotiate prices with providers. This price fixing between government and insurance with providers creates a warped market that is generally insensitive to market competition with lots of room for cost shifting to cover huge deficits created by under paying government health care programs. In other words, politicians have created this scam to protect their weak assed health care welfare programs (Medicare and Medicaid).
Posted by: drfredc at September 08, 2009 12:08 AM (GM3jU)
105
Non-Democrats offering solutions, all of which involve universal coverage:
Dafydd at Big Lizards
some group called the House GOP
AJ Strata
Charles Murray: In Our Hands
Some guy named John McCain in 2007
Jerry Stratton
Dafydd at Big Lizards
some group called the House GOP
AJ Strata
Charles Murray: In Our Hands
Some guy named John McCain in 2007
Jerry Stratton
Posted by: Jerry at September 08, 2009 12:40 AM (7Ahkq)
106
@105
I read the Big Lizards one- I will look at the others tomorrow.
I applaud his suggestions for making the insurance market more consumer-driven and responsive- like Hoekstra, he recognizes the trouble with divorcing consumers from buyers.
Butit is maddenly filled with conjecture (If we do this, then that will happen- and if that happens....) all of which are promising to reduce the cost of health insurance through free-market competition.
In addition, I should point out that the piece has some odd little nuggets of rather un-conservative ideas like this-
"Insurance must be available for those willing to pay for it. Those who cannot afford it should receive aid..."
Huh? Aid? Like, um, government assistance? The author doesn't say.
Even so lets go with that- but it brings me back to where I started, which is, is all this free market competition going to bring meaningful coverage down to where my hypothetical retail worker or waitress can afford it? Meaning less than say, $500 per month for a parent and child?
I mean, really, no matter how you slice it, even the most robustly competitive marketplace is pointless if there are even a million people who can't afford it.
I am getting the sense that there is a bit of dogmatic stubborness here- that anything market driven is perfect, and anything government driven is terrible. So we get are all manner of contorted ideas that attempt to make the marketplace what it isn't- a place where everyone can get the product even if they can't afford it.
Because thats what we are really talking about- health care isn't a toaster, it isn't something where you can just do without if you don't have money. The basic premise is that sick people with no money should not be pushed out into the street- and if you accept that premise, at some point you will have to supplement the marketplace with some sort of government assistance.
I read the Big Lizards one- I will look at the others tomorrow.
I applaud his suggestions for making the insurance market more consumer-driven and responsive- like Hoekstra, he recognizes the trouble with divorcing consumers from buyers.
Butit is maddenly filled with conjecture (If we do this, then that will happen- and if that happens....) all of which are promising to reduce the cost of health insurance through free-market competition.
In addition, I should point out that the piece has some odd little nuggets of rather un-conservative ideas like this-
"Insurance must be available for those willing to pay for it. Those who cannot afford it should receive aid..."
Huh? Aid? Like, um, government assistance? The author doesn't say.
Even so lets go with that- but it brings me back to where I started, which is, is all this free market competition going to bring meaningful coverage down to where my hypothetical retail worker or waitress can afford it? Meaning less than say, $500 per month for a parent and child?
I mean, really, no matter how you slice it, even the most robustly competitive marketplace is pointless if there are even a million people who can't afford it.
I am getting the sense that there is a bit of dogmatic stubborness here- that anything market driven is perfect, and anything government driven is terrible. So we get are all manner of contorted ideas that attempt to make the marketplace what it isn't- a place where everyone can get the product even if they can't afford it.
Because thats what we are really talking about- health care isn't a toaster, it isn't something where you can just do without if you don't have money. The basic premise is that sick people with no money should not be pushed out into the street- and if you accept that premise, at some point you will have to supplement the marketplace with some sort of government assistance.
Posted by: ChipD at September 08, 2009 01:12 AM (NHwWM)
107
Actually, no- if you can't afford chemotherapy and don't have insurance, you don't get it.
For the sake of argument, contra the statistical irrelevance of the cohort in that risk group, and despite at least some anectdotal evidence ofsaid availabilityto the contrary, I'll cede that point and say this:
Fine. Cut the scope of your Gov't health care down to exceptional treatments that the common person can't afford, remove all compulsions to accept the Government plan,follow the same regulatory structureenforced on the private insurancegroups,chisel all that into stonewith a supermajority needed to amend it in any way, and we'll talk.
But cradle-to-grave, full coverage for everyone citizen or noof every checkup, test,scrape, broken boneand abortion? No. A thousand times, no.
For the sake of argument, contra the statistical irrelevance of the cohort in that risk group, and despite at least some anectdotal evidence ofsaid availabilityto the contrary, I'll cede that point and say this:
Fine. Cut the scope of your Gov't health care down to exceptional treatments that the common person can't afford, remove all compulsions to accept the Government plan,follow the same regulatory structureenforced on the private insurancegroups,chisel all that into stonewith a supermajority needed to amend it in any way, and we'll talk.
But cradle-to-grave, full coverage for everyone citizen or noof every checkup, test,scrape, broken boneand abortion? No. A thousand times, no.
Posted by: krakatoa at September 08, 2009 01:12 AM (P+oMN)
108
"It's not the responsibility of the minority to set the legislative agenda."
No, but proposing sensible amendments to bad bills, and having them shot down, helps demonstrate that the majority deserves to go.
"Plus of course...Tort Reform...in the most strict manner."
I've heard this in the abstract pretty frequently lately (with no details), but I thought our side understood that there are a lot of things the federal government isn't constitutionally authorized to do. Except when it comes to tinkering with the diversity jurisdiction of the federal courts, or maritime law, substantive tort law is state law. So what exactly are you proposing?
Now, a bill to create a national market in health insurance could say that insurers are subject only to the administrative and professional regulation of the state in which they're incorporated or have their principle place of business, but going beyond that, the feds just aren't going to be able to stretch that to the actual medical-care providers, nor would I think they should be allowed to.
No, but proposing sensible amendments to bad bills, and having them shot down, helps demonstrate that the majority deserves to go.
"Plus of course...Tort Reform...in the most strict manner."
I've heard this in the abstract pretty frequently lately (with no details), but I thought our side understood that there are a lot of things the federal government isn't constitutionally authorized to do. Except when it comes to tinkering with the diversity jurisdiction of the federal courts, or maritime law, substantive tort law is state law. So what exactly are you proposing?
Now, a bill to create a national market in health insurance could say that insurers are subject only to the administrative and professional regulation of the state in which they're incorporated or have their principle place of business, but going beyond that, the feds just aren't going to be able to stretch that to the actual medical-care providers, nor would I think they should be allowed to.
Posted by: Dave J. at September 08, 2009 02:07 AM (n8GeP)
109
Calling a goverment program "market-driven" is like calling a building project "gravity-driven". The market is inescapable. Government programs that take the market into account (food stamps, for example) can succeed. Government programs that don't take the market into account crash just like government projects that don't take gravity into account.
At best, such programs simply fail, wasting only the money spent on them; at worst, they create mass corruption and vast extra costs as the market goes around the obstruction. Extra costs that are then used to justify further government programs that will only add to the corruption and wastefulness of the program.
Gravity discredited
At best, such programs simply fail, wasting only the money spent on them; at worst, they create mass corruption and vast extra costs as the market goes around the obstruction. Extra costs that are then used to justify further government programs that will only add to the corruption and wastefulness of the program.
Gravity discredited
Posted by: Jerry at September 08, 2009 11:40 AM (QF8uk)
110
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