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AIG Resignation Letter
A note of caution to those who would try to do the right thing in this political climate. This is just a snippet of the letter.
Please go to the link and read the whole thing. Please. Liddy's betrayal of his employees before Congress is detailed in the letter, but I didn't clip that part out.DEAR Mr. Liddy, It is with deep regret that I submit my notice of resignation from A.I.G. Financial Products. I hope you take the time to read this entire letter. Before describing the details of my decision, I want to offer some context: I am proud of everything I have done for the commodity and equity divisions of A.I.G.-F.P. I was in no way involved in — or responsible for — the credit default swap transactions that have hamstrung A.I.G. Nor were more than a handful of the 400 current employees of A.I.G.-F.P. Most of those responsible have left the company and have conspicuously escaped the public outrage.ACORN has also contributed to this monumental mistake. They have been busing Hartford scumbags to AIG execs' Fairfield county homes to gawk at their finery and 'protest' them. Intimidate them, in other words. Isn't that nice? No-job-having slackers calling the producers of wealth upon which they subsist, parasites! Pot, meet kettle.... What possible incentive would one have to stick around and fix the problem? It's a fucking travesty.
After 12 months of hard work dismantling the company — during which A.I.G. reassured us many times we would be rewarded in March 2009 — we in the financial products unit have been betrayed by A.I.G. and are being unfairly persecuted by elected officials. In response to this, I will now leave the company and donate my entire post-tax retention payment to those suffering from the global economic downturn. My intent is to keep none of the money myself. I take this action after 11 years of dedicated, honorable service to A.I.G. I can no longer effectively perform my duties in this dysfunctional environment, nor am I being paid to do so. Like you, I was asked to work for an annual salary of $1, and I agreed out of a sense of duty to the company and to the public officials who have come to its aid. Having now been let down by both, I can no longer justify spending 10, 12, 14 hours a day away from my family for the benefit of those who have let me down. ---------------------------------
The only real motivation that anyone at A.I.G.-F.P. now has is fear. Mr. Cuomo has threatened to “name and shame,” and his counterpart in Connecticut, Richard Blumenthal, has made similar threats — even though attorneys general are supposed to stand for due process, to conduct trials in courts and not the press.
Comments
(Jump to bottom of comments)1
This guy should be recruited to run for Senate against Dodd.
Posted by: Michael Rittenhouse at March 25, 2009 09:05 AM (2QFX4)
2
The whole point of contemporary liberalism is to turn everyone into either a Mau Mau or a Flak Catcher.
Posted by: Hogan at March 25, 2009 09:05 AM (JxMoP)
3
Obama and his ilk will just take over whatever charities he donates the funds to anyway. They'll get their money back by hook or by crook. The socialist bastards are finally out in the open. I hope this guy doesn't try to deduct the donations from his taxes, that's probably a jailable offense to Obama.
Posted by: dfbaskwill at March 25, 2009 09:06 AM (4L5Tl)
4
Who is John Galt?
Posted by: Waterhouse at March 25, 2009 09:07 AM (uN+M3)
5
THE SECOND COMING
by W. B. Yeats
Turning and turning in the widening gyre
The falcon cannot hear the falconer;
Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;
Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.
Surely some revelation is at hand;
Surely the Second Coming is at hand.
The Second Coming! Hardly are those words out
When a vast image out of Spiritus Mundi
Troubles my sight: somewhere in sands of the desert
A shape with lion body and the head of a man,
A gaze blank and pitiless as the sun,
Is moving its slow thighs, while all about it
Reel shadows of the indignant desert birds.
The darkness drops again; but now I know
That twenty centuries of stony sleep
Were vexed to nightmare by a rocking cradle,
And what rough beast, its hour come round at last,
Slouches towards Bethlehem to be born?
by W. B. Yeats
Turning and turning in the widening gyre
The falcon cannot hear the falconer;
Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;
Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.
Surely some revelation is at hand;
Surely the Second Coming is at hand.
The Second Coming! Hardly are those words out
When a vast image out of Spiritus Mundi
Troubles my sight: somewhere in sands of the desert
A shape with lion body and the head of a man,
A gaze blank and pitiless as the sun,
Is moving its slow thighs, while all about it
Reel shadows of the indignant desert birds.
The darkness drops again; but now I know
That twenty centuries of stony sleep
Were vexed to nightmare by a rocking cradle,
And what rough beast, its hour come round at last,
Slouches towards Bethlehem to be born?
Posted by: Monty at March 25, 2009 09:07 AM (/0a60)
6
Our social contracts are disintegrating.
Unconstitutional ex-post facto laws, contract violation, lies, coverups, on and on.
The center is weakening.
Unconstitutional ex-post facto laws, contract violation, lies, coverups, on and on.
The center is weakening.
Posted by: eman at March 25, 2009 09:10 AM (RkZLl)
7
This guy should be recruited to run for Senate against Dodd.
Ooooooooooooooooooooo. I like that idea. I think the good people of Sen. Dodd's and Representative Frank's districts should all be looking for good replacements. And at this point, I don't care if they have an R, I, or D after their name. Just replace those douchenozzles.
This guy (from AIG) is the kind of person our brilliant government is driving out of the financial sector with its meddling. Is it the medical profession whose prime philosophy is "First, do no harm."? It should be the government's.
Ooooooooooooooooooooo. I like that idea. I think the good people of Sen. Dodd's and Representative Frank's districts should all be looking for good replacements. And at this point, I don't care if they have an R, I, or D after their name. Just replace those douchenozzles.
This guy (from AIG) is the kind of person our brilliant government is driving out of the financial sector with its meddling. Is it the medical profession whose prime philosophy is "First, do no harm."? It should be the government's.
Posted by: Miller at March 25, 2009 09:10 AM (GSVEB)
8
I have been a staunch defender of working with AIG to unwind this company and save us from a complete financial collapse. After watching the dishonest and borderline criminal treatment the people working their asses off to fix this clusterfuck have received, I'm tempted to just tell all of them to quit and let it go.
Fuck it all. This country has completely lost it's way and deserves what it's going to get.
Fuck it all. This country has completely lost it's way and deserves what it's going to get.
Posted by: JackStraw at March 25, 2009 09:11 AM (VW9/y)
Posted by: WTF Capital Investments at March 25, 2009 09:11 AM (AHrTm)
10
Is it the medical profession whose prime philosophy is "First, do no harm."? It should be the government's.
I think he makes a damn fine point about the public statements made by Andrew Cuomo and Richard Blumenthal. These AGs are walking, talking, wreckless officers of the people right now.
I think he makes a damn fine point about the public statements made by Andrew Cuomo and Richard Blumenthal. These AGs are walking, talking, wreckless officers of the people right now.
Posted by: WTF Capital Investments at March 25, 2009 09:13 AM (AHrTm)
11
In my perfect world, this resignation would be followed by others. Many others.
What would the Obama regime do if everyone at A.I.G.-F.P. resigned? Given the government's actions so far, I would think replacing them with equally talented personnel might be very difficult. Especially at a yearly salary of one dollar.
So at least we now know where John Galt was working, eh?
What would the Obama regime do if everyone at A.I.G.-F.P. resigned? Given the government's actions so far, I would think replacing them with equally talented personnel might be very difficult. Especially at a yearly salary of one dollar.
So at least we now know where John Galt was working, eh?
Posted by: NEPA Dissident at March 25, 2009 09:14 AM (Ohodx)
Posted by: eman at March 25, 2009 09:14 AM (RkZLl)
13
When those bonus' disappeared, so did the million$$$ in tax dollars that would have been delivered unto duh1.
Gee, I wonder where that moron thinks tax money comes from?
Folks at that level of income send quite a bit of it to charities. No bonus $$$ = no charitable contributions.
I wonder where duh1 thinks the homeless soup kitchens will get operating cash?Does he hate the homeless, orphans, lepers etc? Can he actually be that cruel?
Gee, I wonder where that moron thinks tax money comes from?
Folks at that level of income send quite a bit of it to charities. No bonus $$$ = no charitable contributions.
I wonder where duh1 thinks the homeless soup kitchens will get operating cash?Does he hate the homeless, orphans, lepers etc? Can he actually be that cruel?
Posted by: torabora at March 25, 2009 09:14 AM (tuTb7)
14
Video of Acorn Bus tour. Obama has Redshirts not brownshirts.
http://tinyurl.com/dlwvnu
http://tinyurl.com/dlwvnu
Posted by: kidney, currently shuddering at the consequences at March 25, 2009 09:14 AM (FgUFX)
15
LauraW is back! Zoot Allures!!
Posted by: DaveDave at March 25, 2009 09:15 AM (TZxke)
16
I agree Laura, this is a fucking travesty. And where is the press to set the record straight. To INFORM the uninformed about contracts that were agreed upon. This mobbing of the AIG employees is insane.
Can someone, anyone, stand up and ask MR. Obama this question, "Did you read it, word for word, before you signed it? Or were you too bust making travel plans for The Tonight Show?"
Can someone, anyone, stand up and ask MR. Obama this question, "Did you read it, word for word, before you signed it? Or were you too bust making travel plans for The Tonight Show?"
Posted by: tcbevo at March 25, 2009 09:15 AM (z4daD)
17
"She's broke her back. She'll never jump again"
Posted by: eman at March 25, 2009 09:15 AM (RkZLl)
18
Those who stay at AIG should keep their bonuses, be called out, and put a giant middle finger on their front door for all parasites to see.
Posted by: TK at March 25, 2009 09:16 AM (4jZ56)
19
"bust" = busy
Posted by: tcbevo at March 25, 2009 09:17 AM (z4daD)
20
What would the Obama regime do if everyone at A.I.G.-F.P. resigned?
They'd just fnd another way to funnel money to European banks. AIG is just a front at this stage, it's only purpose to provide political cover.
They'd just fnd another way to funnel money to European banks. AIG is just a front at this stage, it's only purpose to provide political cover.
Posted by: flenser at March 25, 2009 09:17 AM (AYOtW)
21
Awesome. Finally, people are starting to unapologetically, brazenly talk back. (I loved that about Palin during the campaign.) And good for Jindal, this time he got it exactly right (via Red State):
'Jindal described the premise of the question — “Do you want the president to fail?” — as the “latest gotcha game” being perpetrated by Democrats against Republicans.
“Make no mistake: Anything other than an immediate and compliant, ‘Why no sir, I don’t want the president to fail,’ is treated as some sort of act of treason, civil disobedience or political obstructionism,” Jindal said at a political fundraiser attended by 1,200 people. “This is political correctness run amok.”
Jindal said his answer is, “It depends on what he is trying to do.”'
'Jindal described the premise of the question — “Do you want the president to fail?” — as the “latest gotcha game” being perpetrated by Democrats against Republicans.
“Make no mistake: Anything other than an immediate and compliant, ‘Why no sir, I don’t want the president to fail,’ is treated as some sort of act of treason, civil disobedience or political obstructionism,” Jindal said at a political fundraiser attended by 1,200 people. “This is political correctness run amok.”
Jindal said his answer is, “It depends on what he is trying to do.”'
Posted by: lael at March 25, 2009 09:17 AM (ulEmZ)
Posted by: eman at March 25, 2009 09:19 AM (RkZLl)
23
What's the over/under on our republic still living when the mid-terms roll around next year and we (hopefully) replace some of these House-Senate Ds with Rs?
Can I at least hope that the catastrophe of Preznit Hopey-Changey will at least illustrate for people the abject failure of socialism in this country? Please, God? PLEASE?
If PHC and his little buddy Geithner (doing a heckuva job, Timmay!) attempt to seize (i.e., nationalize) businesses unConstitutionally, is that grounds for impeachment? Just askin'.
Can I at least hope that the catastrophe of Preznit Hopey-Changey will at least illustrate for people the abject failure of socialism in this country? Please, God? PLEASE?
If PHC and his little buddy Geithner (doing a heckuva job, Timmay!) attempt to seize (i.e., nationalize) businesses unConstitutionally, is that grounds for impeachment? Just askin'.
Posted by: Miller at March 25, 2009 09:19 AM (QII67)
24
Freudian, maybe busy does equal "bust"?
Posted by: tcbevo at March 25, 2009 09:20 AM (z4daD)
25
What's the over/under on our republic still living when the mid-terms roll around next year
Still living? It's already stiff and cold.
Still living? It's already stiff and cold.
Posted by: flenser at March 25, 2009 09:20 AM (AYOtW)
26
I wouldn't give too many props to the EU for being "smarter" than us. The real truth is that they don't want to pony up any cash for their own bailouts. They want us to do it.
It's not their sacred belief in free markets driving their reluctance to commit to bailout money. It's fear of their own populations. The truth is that they can either commit money to their financial systems or support their massive welfare states, but they can't do both. Most of the EU nations are in for a long summer of labor unrest as the unemployment rate rises, and this, combined with the usual "urban youths" hollering about something or other, promises a lot of grief in Europe.
It's not their sacred belief in free markets driving their reluctance to commit to bailout money. It's fear of their own populations. The truth is that they can either commit money to their financial systems or support their massive welfare states, but they can't do both. Most of the EU nations are in for a long summer of labor unrest as the unemployment rate rises, and this, combined with the usual "urban youths" hollering about something or other, promises a lot of grief in Europe.
Posted by: Monty at March 25, 2009 09:20 AM (/0a60)
27
Wow, way to go, quit a One Dollar job working 14 hours a day and in a 90% tax bracket.
I think we should make Barry'O work 14 hours a day for a dollar, and then pay 90 cents of it back. He would still be overpaid. (14 hours will still give some time for bowling like a tard in that wack mansion).
Oh, and make barry personally pay for the gas to go on his junkets to ChiTown and off to hollywood to get stroked and prove what a dumb ass he is. AF1 measures consumption in gallons per mile.
More AIG employees need to revolt against the shameless treatment that they are getting.
Arm up, buy more ammo. This may get ugly faster than anyone thinks. I'm pretty sure that they are trying to arm up the brownshirts, and that 4 billion to Obambi's thugocracy will buy a lot of muscle.
I think we should make Barry'O work 14 hours a day for a dollar, and then pay 90 cents of it back. He would still be overpaid. (14 hours will still give some time for bowling like a tard in that wack mansion).
Oh, and make barry personally pay for the gas to go on his junkets to ChiTown and off to hollywood to get stroked and prove what a dumb ass he is. AF1 measures consumption in gallons per mile.
More AIG employees need to revolt against the shameless treatment that they are getting.
Arm up, buy more ammo. This may get ugly faster than anyone thinks. I'm pretty sure that they are trying to arm up the brownshirts, and that 4 billion to Obambi's thugocracy will buy a lot of muscle.
Posted by: Mephitis at March 25, 2009 09:22 AM (ehXLT)
28
Video of Acorn Bus tour
Featuring a condemnation of AIG workers by a 51-year old "Professional dog walker," a European woman and an older woman with some kind of Caribbean accent.
The Onion has not attempted a parody video of this bus tour because there is no way they could improve on the reality. Greedy, grasping losers condemning men and women who are more successful - and wealthier - because they work harder and smarter than the aforementioned losers.
Featuring a condemnation of AIG workers by a 51-year old "Professional dog walker," a European woman and an older woman with some kind of Caribbean accent.
The Onion has not attempted a parody video of this bus tour because there is no way they could improve on the reality. Greedy, grasping losers condemning men and women who are more successful - and wealthier - because they work harder and smarter than the aforementioned losers.
Posted by: NEPA Dissident at March 25, 2009 09:22 AM (Ohodx)
29
What's the over/under on our republic still living when the mid-terms roll around next year
Still living? It's already stiff and cold.
I guess that makes Barry and company into necrophiliacs since they're repeatedly humping the corpse.
Still living? It's already stiff and cold.
I guess that makes Barry and company into necrophiliacs since they're repeatedly humping the corpse.
Posted by: Brandon In Baton Rouge at March 25, 2009 09:22 AM (Hy1bj)
30
Yeah Nepa, I laughed at dog-boy too.
Posted by: kidney, currently shuddering at the consequences at March 25, 2009 09:24 AM (FgUFX)
31
I've always liked Blumenthal but some time the posing is too much.
He's AG but a lot of the time he acts like an ambulance chaser.
The only cases he cares about involve cash.
I don't get it either because he never runs for higher office.
He's AG but a lot of the time he acts like an ambulance chaser.
The only cases he cares about involve cash.
I don't get it either because he never runs for higher office.
Posted by: Rocks at March 25, 2009 09:26 AM (Q1lie)
32
What a fucking shame. I truly hope I can come face to face with an ACORN worker so I can beat the shit of him/her.
Posted by: Jewells at March 25, 2009 09:26 AM (l/N7H)
33
When those bonus' disappeared, so did the million$$$ in tax dollars that would have been delivered unto duh1.
The bonuses came out of tax dollars in the first place. The Feds can't balance the books by giving us all million dollar bonuses and then taxing them.
The bonuses came out of tax dollars in the first place. The Feds can't balance the books by giving us all million dollar bonuses and then taxing them.
Posted by: flenser at March 25, 2009 09:27 AM (AYOtW)
34
I guess that makes Barry and company into necrophiliacs since they're repeatedly humping the corpse.
Well yeah, since there was money in the corpse's wallet and rings on the fingers... >8^O
Well yeah, since there was money in the corpse's wallet and rings on the fingers... >8^O
Posted by: Additional Blond Agent at March 25, 2009 09:27 AM (SHKl9)
35
Sorry, not buying it. Fuck him.
Posted by: Pelvis at March 25, 2009 09:28 AM (LlaBi)
36
That CT Workers Family Party is for shit. They are nothing. They just nominate Dems on their own line and then go around trying to get people to vote their line so they can qualify for matching cash.
Posted by: Rocks at March 25, 2009 09:28 AM (Q1lie)
37
http://tinyurl.com/cy9ka2
Related attack on Bank Executive's home in England. It appears that the politicians there followed the same smear and then lay confiscitory taxes plan that Obama did.
Related attack on Bank Executive's home in England. It appears that the politicians there followed the same smear and then lay confiscitory taxes plan that Obama did.
Posted by: kidney, currently shuddering at the consequences at March 25, 2009 09:29 AM (FgUFX)
38
They have been
busing Hartford scumbags to AIG execs' Fairfield county homes to gawk
at their finery and 'protest' them.
Ayn Rand refers to these scumbags as "looters," and includes in the mix those who enable and agitate them. And you're right, this is a travesty, the worst kind of demagoguery.
busing Hartford scumbags to AIG execs' Fairfield county homes to gawk
at their finery and 'protest' them.
Ayn Rand refers to these scumbags as "looters," and includes in the mix those who enable and agitate them. And you're right, this is a travesty, the worst kind of demagoguery.
Posted by: Milesdei at March 25, 2009 09:29 AM (FS9ko)
39
DeSantis suffers aminor injustice in a world of woe, and posts his whiny pathetic bleat on WSJ for the whole world to see. Yes, I'll grant you he's been more "productive" than ACORN parasites. That doesn't make him any less a sniveler. There are millions of people who have worked harder than him for a lot less, and got shafted ten times as bad. He just made it that much harder to defend the wealth-creating class. Fuck him up the ass with Satan's barbed cock.
Posted by: gp at March 25, 2009 09:30 AM (B9rV2)
Posted by: slizzle at March 25, 2009 09:30 AM (zG+3k)
41
Read the spin about the press conf.:
http://tinyurl.com/d9rdrt
WASHINGTON (AP) - What kind of politician brings a teleprompter to a news conference?
A careful one
http://tinyurl.com/d9rdrt
WASHINGTON (AP) - What kind of politician brings a teleprompter to a news conference?
A careful one
Posted by: outraged at March 25, 2009 09:31 AM (penCf)
42
I was wondering how long it would be before someone stood up to Congress and O! instead of going limp in a hearing while being spit on by Bawney Fwank.
I got a question - is BF related to Jabba the Hutt? I see a striking resemblance.
I got a question - is BF related to Jabba the Hutt? I see a striking resemblance.
Posted by: brian at March 25, 2009 09:31 AM (cPWTF)
43
What bothered me the most about this AIG Bonus take-back by congress wasn’t just the illegal and unconstitutional aspects of it. It was also the fact that not a single news organization ever told the true story about these bonuses. Is it any wonder that the public was incensed? This is fucking Katrina all over again. It was a media feeding frenzy playing to the Dems strategy.
We haven’t had a free press since the late 60s.
We haven’t had a free press since the late 60s.
Posted by: Vic at March 25, 2009 09:31 AM (f6os6)
44
It's a fucking travesty.
hehehehe! She said fuck.
ACORN and I and a lot of us are mad as hell and we're not going to take it any more!
hehehehe! She said fuck.
ACORN and I and a lot of us are mad as hell and we're not going to take it any more!
Posted by: RRowdy at March 25, 2009 09:33 AM (D2t2Y)
45
Paging Mr. John Galt . . . Mr. John Galt, please pick up the nearest white courtesy phone.
Posted by: Cobalt Shiva at March 25, 2009 09:35 AM (uZCf8)
46
You know, when newspapers had reporters and not self-righteous journalists, they might have been able to explain how AIG got where it was. But, it was just too easy to make them ogres du jour for political ends.
This dishonest press deserves to go out of business.
You know, when newspapers had reporters and not self-righteous journalists, they might have been able to explain how AIG got where it was. But, it was just too easy to make them ogres du jour for political ends.
This dishonest press deserves to go out of business.
Posted by: just keep it up libs at March 25, 2009 09:35 AM (0YCk6)
47
"11
In my perfect world, this resignation would be followed by others. Many others.
What
would the Obama regime do if everyone at A.I.G.-F.P. resigned? Given
the government's actions so far, I would think replacing them with
equally talented personnel might be very difficult. Especially at a
yearly salary of one dollar.
So at least we now know where John Galt was working, eh?
Posted by: NEPA Dissident at March 25, 2009 09:14 AM (Ohodx)"Can they replace them if they all resigned? If you notice a third person removed their name from consideration for a spot at treasury. Theya re having trouble staffing treasury would you not think they would have similar trouble staffing AIG? I don't think they are thinking this out, pondering the "if we do this, then what are the possible outcome" roads. This is the crux of the matter. Sure, you can do a lot of things but you can't predict people's reactions/actiions and that is waht ultimately will create the problems down the road.
In my perfect world, this resignation would be followed by others. Many others.
What
would the Obama regime do if everyone at A.I.G.-F.P. resigned? Given
the government's actions so far, I would think replacing them with
equally talented personnel might be very difficult. Especially at a
yearly salary of one dollar.
So at least we now know where John Galt was working, eh?
Posted by: NEPA Dissident at March 25, 2009 09:14 AM (Ohodx)"Can they replace them if they all resigned? If you notice a third person removed their name from consideration for a spot at treasury. Theya re having trouble staffing treasury would you not think they would have similar trouble staffing AIG? I don't think they are thinking this out, pondering the "if we do this, then what are the possible outcome" roads. This is the crux of the matter. Sure, you can do a lot of things but you can't predict people's reactions/actiions and that is waht ultimately will create the problems down the road.
Posted by: muffy at March 25, 2009 09:35 AM (zplc6)
48
I'm with you Pelvis. The guy is already set for life. He just decided "I don't need this shit". And now he's some kind of hero?
Fuck him.
Fuck him.
Posted by: CAD Daddy at March 25, 2009 09:36 AM (uE8op)
49
because they work harder and smarter than the aforementioned losers.
.....like their patron Saint, Bernard Madoff
.....like their patron Saint, Bernard Madoff
Posted by: RRowdy at March 25, 2009 09:37 AM (D2t2Y)
50
Seems like I recall that Osama's stated goal in taking down the WTC was his belief that it would undermine the entire US financial system. Obviously he was mistaken in that belief and thousands of his pedophiles followers have given their life due to his lack of judgement. But this Obama fellow seems to have figured out how to get it done. The trick is to tear up trust and the rule of law rather than to tear down buildings.
Posted by: pendejo grande at March 25, 2009 09:38 AM (PXZI9)
51
I clicked into the anchoress from malkin's blogroll. She has some interesting stuff. Funny internet stuff but interesting none the less.
Posted by: muffy at March 25, 2009 09:38 AM (zplc6)
52
Can they replace them if they all resigned?
Hell yes. I'm willing and able to take a job there. How could I do worse than they did?
Hell yes. I'm willing and able to take a job there. How could I do worse than they did?
Posted by: RRowdy at March 25, 2009 09:39 AM (D2t2Y)
53
Those ACORN shits say they've never seen houses like the AIG execs have. Well, if you're intelligent, work hard in school, make good decisions, select a good career path, work long hard hours at your job, and create lots of wealth, you get to live in a house like that. On the other hand, if you're a slacker, and you take the easy subjects in school, and you goof off, and if your idea of hard work is to dab paint on a paper mache puppet between bong hits, you get to live in public housing and ride the bus. We all make choices in life, and not every choice leads to the same outcome.
Posted by: lmg at March 25, 2009 09:39 AM (A/vgC)
54
.....like their patron Saint, Bernard Madoff
Try hard not to be a fucking douchebag. Bernard Madoff is a crook and nobody here supports him. In fact, most of us probably resent him more than you ACORN parasites because you clowns try to pretend he is one of us.
You guys want class warfare? Keep it up. You are going to lose badly.
Try hard not to be a fucking douchebag. Bernard Madoff is a crook and nobody here supports him. In fact, most of us probably resent him more than you ACORN parasites because you clowns try to pretend he is one of us.
You guys want class warfare? Keep it up. You are going to lose badly.
Posted by: JackStraw at March 25, 2009 09:41 AM (VW9/y)
55
Fuck him up the ass with Satan's barbed cock.
No. Fuck you. This isn't about the dollars. It isn't about whether or not you think he deserves the money. It isn't about whining or sniveling. It's about the fucking destruction of one of the fundamental principles of all law, namely that a valid contract cannot be rescinded for extracontractual post hoc reasons. Seriously, what's going on with the AIG bonuses is nothing less than throwing one of the bedrock principles of all Western jurisprudence right out the window.
If this is allowed to stand, then not one fucking contract is worth the paper it's printed on. Not a single one. Not your mortgage. Not your car loan. Not your employment agreement. Not your bank account, your stocks, your deed, not a fucking thing. That's what's going on and it is, bluntly, terrifying.
No. Fuck you. This isn't about the dollars. It isn't about whether or not you think he deserves the money. It isn't about whining or sniveling. It's about the fucking destruction of one of the fundamental principles of all law, namely that a valid contract cannot be rescinded for extracontractual post hoc reasons. Seriously, what's going on with the AIG bonuses is nothing less than throwing one of the bedrock principles of all Western jurisprudence right out the window.
If this is allowed to stand, then not one fucking contract is worth the paper it's printed on. Not a single one. Not your mortgage. Not your car loan. Not your employment agreement. Not your bank account, your stocks, your deed, not a fucking thing. That's what's going on and it is, bluntly, terrifying.
Posted by: alexthechick at March 25, 2009 09:41 AM (SHHaV)
56
Rich people have the right to complain when they have been shit on.
Class warfare is for commies and trolls.
Class warfare is for commies and trolls.
Posted by: eman at March 25, 2009 09:42 AM (RkZLl)
57
ACORN and I and a lot of us are mad as hell and we're not going to take it any more!
Yeah, honoring contracts strikes me as unfair too!
Yeah, honoring contracts strikes me as unfair too!
Posted by: Delusional Moonbat at March 25, 2009 09:42 AM (uN+M3)
58
He just made it that much harder to defend the wealth-creating class
I can't see this, or this
The guy is already set for life. He just decided "I don't need this shit". And now he's some kind of hero?
Fuck him.
I can't see this, or this
The guy is already set for life. He just decided "I don't need this shit". And now he's some kind of hero?
Fuck him.
Posted by: toby928 at March 25, 2009 09:44 AM (PD1tk)
59
@49
Comparing every banker to Madoff is like comparing every professional athelete to OJ Simpson.
Very fucking weak strawman there dude. Now, it's time for your nap.
Comparing every banker to Madoff is like comparing every professional athelete to OJ Simpson.
Very fucking weak strawman there dude. Now, it's time for your nap.
Posted by: pendejo grande at March 25, 2009 09:45 AM (PXZI9)
60
You guys want class warfare? Keep it up. You are going to lose badly.
Yeah all the AIG employees seem to have the upper hand! What's going to happen is these pricks are going to bring us all down.
A rising tide lifts all boats, but rats and saints drown in a sinking one.
Yeah all the AIG employees seem to have the upper hand! What's going to happen is these pricks are going to bring us all down.
A rising tide lifts all boats, but rats and saints drown in a sinking one.
Posted by: RRowdy at March 25, 2009 09:45 AM (D2t2Y)
Posted by: toby928 at March 25, 2009 09:45 AM (PD1tk)
62
Just like the 'good ole days' in the old country. Whenever someone stepped out of line, Mussolini's black shirts were there to do a little community organization.
Posted by: Kae Gregory at March 25, 2009 09:46 AM (RkRxq)
63
Comparing every banker to Madoff is like comparing every professional athelete to OJ Simpson.
As is comparing everyone in ACORN to a shiftless bum.
Every banker is not Madoff. He was just better than they were.
As is comparing everyone in ACORN to a shiftless bum.
Every banker is not Madoff. He was just better than they were.
Posted by: RRowdy at March 25, 2009 09:47 AM (D2t2Y)
64
Alex @55 - Yeah, nobody seems too concerned with "collateral damage" here.
But between this, the "cramdown" legislation, and other recent shit coming out of this Congress, maybe we are seeing an intentional destruction of fundamental trust. After all, if the government can just step in and nullify any agreement you make with someone when they decide to shirk their obligations, why bother trusting anyone?
But between this, the "cramdown" legislation, and other recent shit coming out of this Congress, maybe we are seeing an intentional destruction of fundamental trust. After all, if the government can just step in and nullify any agreement you make with someone when they decide to shirk their obligations, why bother trusting anyone?
Posted by: brian at March 25, 2009 09:47 AM (cPWTF)
65
Yeah, I'm ticked at the financial genius sector of the economy. I'd have more respect for a letter like this if it had been written 36 months ago protesting the firm's insane credit swap positions.
I'm more ticked that current policy is going to make this worse by not ditching zombie firms like AIG immediately.
I'm even more ticked that a dollar is going to worth about 65 cents in two years. And this time, I'm the one being rosy with my assumptions.
I'm more ticked that current policy is going to make this worse by not ditching zombie firms like AIG immediately.
I'm even more ticked that a dollar is going to worth about 65 cents in two years. And this time, I'm the one being rosy with my assumptions.
Posted by: Circa (Insert Year Here) at March 25, 2009 09:47 AM (B+qrE)
66
What's going to happen is these pricks are going to bring us all down.
Posted by: RRowdy
I find your lack of faith disturbing.
Posted by: RRowdy
I find your lack of faith disturbing.
Posted by: Darth Bama at March 25, 2009 09:48 AM (RkZLl)
67
RRowdy @63 - Madoff was not a banker, he was a crook. He never intended to do anything legitimate, he intended to steal people's money.
And the proper comparison for ACORN and its followers is "Socialist heathen, fellow travelers, and useful idiots."
"Shiftless bum" works as a shorthand though.
And the proper comparison for ACORN and its followers is "Socialist heathen, fellow travelers, and useful idiots."
"Shiftless bum" works as a shorthand though.
Posted by: brian at March 25, 2009 09:49 AM (cPWTF)
68
O-tards seem to understand that demonizing results in less of it, like smoking or emitting carbon or telling off-color jokes, why do they not get that demonizing wealth will result in less of it?
Yeah guys, go ahead, demonize the rich, soon we won't have any, including the people that support your sorry, parasitic lifestyles. That's equality you can believe in.
Yeah guys, go ahead, demonize the rich, soon we won't have any, including the people that support your sorry, parasitic lifestyles. That's equality you can believe in.
Posted by: leoncaruthers at March 25, 2009 09:49 AM (PH0UW)
69
Can they replace them if they all resigned?
Sure ... with RRowdy, who thinks anyone can do the job as well as Mr. DeSantis. Or maybe with some of the bozos on the ACORN "Tour of Intimidation" bus.
The truth is, this guy wasn't involved with the CDSs. He made his company a boatload of money. He did his job well, and now he is being robbed by the Obama regime, not because of anything he did, but to curry favor with the perpetually jealous, the looters, and the ignorant.
If his contract can be nullified by the Federal government, any contract can. That includes loans, mortgages, terms of employment, purchase contracts - anything. This is a VERY slippery slope, and anyone who thinks, "Oh, DeSantis is rich, so fuck him," is a cretin.
Sure ... with RRowdy, who thinks anyone can do the job as well as Mr. DeSantis. Or maybe with some of the bozos on the ACORN "Tour of Intimidation" bus.
The truth is, this guy wasn't involved with the CDSs. He made his company a boatload of money. He did his job well, and now he is being robbed by the Obama regime, not because of anything he did, but to curry favor with the perpetually jealous, the looters, and the ignorant.
If his contract can be nullified by the Federal government, any contract can. That includes loans, mortgages, terms of employment, purchase contracts - anything. This is a VERY slippery slope, and anyone who thinks, "Oh, DeSantis is rich, so fuck him," is a cretin.
Posted by: NEPA Dissident at March 25, 2009 09:49 AM (Ohodx)
70
Yeah all the AIG employees seem to have the upper hand! What's going to happen is these pricks are going to bring us all down.
Hey fuckstick. What started this whole mess rolling is the great underclass taking zero down loans with no ability to pay for them based on programs started and maintained by Democrats. Blaming all of this on evil bankers is like blaming a car engine for seizing up after fueling it with shit.
Democracy and capitalism fail when the majority is to stupid to understand how wealth is created. We are at the tipping point.
Hey fuckstick. What started this whole mess rolling is the great underclass taking zero down loans with no ability to pay for them based on programs started and maintained by Democrats. Blaming all of this on evil bankers is like blaming a car engine for seizing up after fueling it with shit.
Democracy and capitalism fail when the majority is to stupid to understand how wealth is created. We are at the tipping point.
Posted by: JackStraw at March 25, 2009 09:49 AM (VW9/y)
71
We really are heaidng into the abyss.
The Smiler-in-Chief fraudulently voted in is such a fucking clown it's ridiculous. Abusing rich people WHO BUY SHIT is perhaps the dumbest thing in the history of man.
We are so fucked. The Idiot in Chief thinks 75K in Moline is the same as 75K in NYC. His drooling sycophants are still glossy eyed over there mentally-ill decisions to vote a complete retard into office.
What a fucking IDIOT. A MORON.
Good thing he spent so much time in that marvelous church.
We really are heaidng into the abyss.
The Smiler-in-Chief fraudulently voted in is such a fucking clown it's ridiculous. Abusing rich people WHO BUY SHIT is perhaps the dumbest thing in the history of man.
We are so fucked. The Idiot in Chief thinks 75K in Moline is the same as 75K in NYC. His drooling sycophants are still glossy eyed over there mentally-ill decisions to vote a complete retard into office.
What a fucking IDIOT. A MORON.
Good thing he spent so much time in that marvelous church.
Posted by: Rev. Dr. E. Buzz Miller at March 25, 2009 09:50 AM (iI65m)
72
I'm rather curious when people support intimidation and harassment of private citizens who have committed no crime, but simply happen to have more stuff than most people.
Well, I'm not curious, actually. I know it's an irrational reaction sparked by jealousy and laziness.
What you actually want is wealth for yourself, but if you can't get that you'll settle for knocking the rich down to your level.
Well, I'm not curious, actually. I know it's an irrational reaction sparked by jealousy and laziness.
What you actually want is wealth for yourself, but if you can't get that you'll settle for knocking the rich down to your level.
Posted by: lauraw at March 25, 2009 09:50 AM (4wl5q)
73
RRowdy:
I don't understand what you mean. Madoff was a thief and a confidence man; I have heard no one suggest that the AIG bonus-takers did anything illegal. Unwise, perhaps, but not illegal. Is it your contention that simply making "too much money" is in and of itself an unethical thing to do?
If so...well, that sort of makes you a whiny douchebag, doesn't it? I mean, there are many people in the world who do not deserve the good fortune they have. (Paris Hilton is my favorite example, but there are many others.) But as a movie gunfighter once observed, "Deserve's got nothing to do with it." It's not up to you, or the government, to tell me how much I am allowed to make. How much money I have -- presuming I can accrued my wealth legally -- is none of your fucking business. You may not like how I came by my wealth; you may disagree with how I spend it. That doesn't change the fact that it's none of your affair. Not if it involves one dollar or one billion dollars.
If I choose to burn a pile of twenty dollar bills while a poor family nearby both starves and freezes, it's no one's business but mine. Their need does not entitle them to one thin dime of my money. I may choose to give help as charity (as a Christian man should), but a gift that is coerced by the government is no gift at all, but an unjust transfer of wealth from one to another.
I will be called to answer by God if I sin against Him, but if I break no laws then the government (and big-state liberals) can fuck right off. I don't owe you or anyone else anything beyond what I am willing to give.
I don't understand what you mean. Madoff was a thief and a confidence man; I have heard no one suggest that the AIG bonus-takers did anything illegal. Unwise, perhaps, but not illegal. Is it your contention that simply making "too much money" is in and of itself an unethical thing to do?
If so...well, that sort of makes you a whiny douchebag, doesn't it? I mean, there are many people in the world who do not deserve the good fortune they have. (Paris Hilton is my favorite example, but there are many others.) But as a movie gunfighter once observed, "Deserve's got nothing to do with it." It's not up to you, or the government, to tell me how much I am allowed to make. How much money I have -- presuming I can accrued my wealth legally -- is none of your fucking business. You may not like how I came by my wealth; you may disagree with how I spend it. That doesn't change the fact that it's none of your affair. Not if it involves one dollar or one billion dollars.
If I choose to burn a pile of twenty dollar bills while a poor family nearby both starves and freezes, it's no one's business but mine. Their need does not entitle them to one thin dime of my money. I may choose to give help as charity (as a Christian man should), but a gift that is coerced by the government is no gift at all, but an unjust transfer of wealth from one to another.
I will be called to answer by God if I sin against Him, but if I break no laws then the government (and big-state liberals) can fuck right off. I don't owe you or anyone else anything beyond what I am willing to give.
Posted by: Monty at March 25, 2009 09:50 AM (/0a60)
74
All this bullshit is driving me nuts.
I'm working for one dollar a year with a guaranteed 1.5 million dollar bonus.
If it's guaranteed it's not a bonus. A bonus is something you may or may not get depending on the company's financial wellbeing. So knock off all that "I worked for one dollar last year" crap.
I'm working for one dollar a year with a guaranteed 1.5 million dollar bonus.
If it's guaranteed it's not a bonus. A bonus is something you may or may not get depending on the company's financial wellbeing. So knock off all that "I worked for one dollar last year" crap.
Posted by: CAD Daddy at March 25, 2009 09:51 AM (uE8op)
75
At times like this, I turn to the sage of 80s hair metal: Ronny James Dio, during his stint with Sabbath.
Close the city and tell the people that something's coming to call
Death and darkness are rushing forward to take a bite from the wall, oh
You've nothing to say
They're breaking away
If you listen to fools...
The Mob Rules
The Mob Rules
Kill the spirit and you'll be blinded, the end is always the same
Play with fire, you burn your fingers and lose your hold of the flame, oh
It's over, it's done
the end is begun
If you listen to fools...
The Mob Rules
You've nothing to say
Oh, They're breaking away
If you listen to fools...
Break the circle and stop the movement, the wheel is thrown to the ground
Just remember it might start rolling and take you right back around
You're all fools!
The Mob Rules!
Close the city and tell the people that something's coming to call
Death and darkness are rushing forward to take a bite from the wall, oh
You've nothing to say
They're breaking away
If you listen to fools...
The Mob Rules
The Mob Rules
Kill the spirit and you'll be blinded, the end is always the same
Play with fire, you burn your fingers and lose your hold of the flame, oh
It's over, it's done
the end is begun
If you listen to fools...
The Mob Rules
You've nothing to say
Oh, They're breaking away
If you listen to fools...
Break the circle and stop the movement, the wheel is thrown to the ground
Just remember it might start rolling and take you right back around
You're all fools!
The Mob Rules!
Posted by: Gig Fat Meanie at March 25, 2009 09:52 AM (n2eCn)
76
Rowdy, did you ever remember your scientist buddy's names?
Posted by: toby928 at March 25, 2009 09:52 AM (PD1tk)
77
"Rich people have the right to complain when they have been shit on." They surely do.Most of them also have more sense than to complainin front ofmillions of folks who have it A LOT WORSE than they do, not thru any fault of their own, and who won't ever get their complaints posted as a fullarticle on WSJ.
I'm not a class-warrior. I don't hate rich people, except for publicly whining rich people who don't know how to count their blessings, who go out of their way to make it so muchHARDER to defend financiers generally.
I'm not a class-warrior. I don't hate rich people, except for publicly whining rich people who don't know how to count their blessings, who go out of their way to make it so muchHARDER to defend financiers generally.
Posted by: gp at March 25, 2009 09:52 AM (B9rV2)
78
You guys want class warfare? Keep it up.
Good old Jackie Straw. We are in the middle of a major class war right now. And we're getting our asses severely kicked by those wonderful rich guys, who are working hand in glove with all those super-duper politicians. Go beat off to you copy of Atlas Shrugged.
Good old Jackie Straw. We are in the middle of a major class war right now. And we're getting our asses severely kicked by those wonderful rich guys, who are working hand in glove with all those super-duper politicians. Go beat off to you copy of Atlas Shrugged.
Posted by: flenser at March 25, 2009 09:53 AM (AYOtW)
79
"because they work harder and smarter than the aforementioned losers.
.....like their patron Saint, Bernard Madoff"
nice try, pindick. Madoff is a democrat.
.....like their patron Saint, Bernard Madoff"
nice try, pindick. Madoff is a democrat.
Posted by: buster mcDissenter at March 25, 2009 09:54 AM (4ezUN)
80
Honoring contracts is UnAmerican*!
*American as defined in the New Obama Dictionary, publication date Jan 20, 2009.
*American as defined in the New Obama Dictionary, publication date Jan 20, 2009.
Posted by: Delusional Moonbat at March 25, 2009 09:55 AM (uN+M3)
81
nice try, pindick. Madoff is a democrat.
Every crook is, at heart, since they share a common belief in wealth redistribution.
Every crook is, at heart, since they share a common belief in wealth redistribution.
Posted by: leoncaruthers at March 25, 2009 09:55 AM (PH0UW)
Posted by: toby928 at March 25, 2009 09:55 AM (PD1tk)
83
Slightly OT, but what in the samhill does the market see in that speal from last night?
Is this related to the uptick in housing numbers?
Is this related to the uptick in housing numbers?
Posted by: Techie at March 25, 2009 09:56 AM (QYuCD)
84
Rowdy, you are such a cockholster. The sad simple difference, that you are clearly unable to see, is that Madoff was a crook and this guy was not. He did NOTHING wrong, had nothing to do with the AIG meltdown, and in fact apparently made the company a lot of money. Therefore he EARNED that money.
That the Commiecrats chose to play the envy card (something they have a lot of experience in), and that people like you are dumb enough to swallow it is no surprise.
Why do you think people like, say, big time professional athletes, or movie stars, or skilled doctors or lawyers get paid the big bucks? The answer is very simple; these people have skill sets that most people (such as you) don't have. And there are people willing to pay them good money for their skills.
Executives like this DeSantis guy are no different. They have skills most people don't have, and are paid accordingly. Deal with it.
That the Commiecrats chose to play the envy card (something they have a lot of experience in), and that people like you are dumb enough to swallow it is no surprise.
Why do you think people like, say, big time professional athletes, or movie stars, or skilled doctors or lawyers get paid the big bucks? The answer is very simple; these people have skill sets that most people (such as you) don't have. And there are people willing to pay them good money for their skills.
Executives like this DeSantis guy are no different. They have skills most people don't have, and are paid accordingly. Deal with it.
Posted by: Cave Bear at March 25, 2009 09:56 AM (TE2OX)
85
"If his contract can be nullified by the Federal
government, any contract can. That includes loans, mortgages, terms of
employment, purchase contracts - anything. This is a VERY slippery
slope, and anyone who thinks, "Oh, DeSantis is rich, so fuck him," is a
cretin.
Posted by: NEPA Dissident at March 25, 2009 09:49 AM (Ohodx)"Yet, do you remember the many discussions when bankruptcy judges altering mortgage contracts was brought up? On, we couldn't do that to help people stay in their homes and avoid the tent cities that guy alluded to last night, no that would make way too much sense. But, we can alter the contracts of rich bankers, that's all right. Gabe, how do the courts view this?
government, any contract can. That includes loans, mortgages, terms of
employment, purchase contracts - anything. This is a VERY slippery
slope, and anyone who thinks, "Oh, DeSantis is rich, so fuck him," is a
cretin.
Posted by: NEPA Dissident at March 25, 2009 09:49 AM (Ohodx)"Yet, do you remember the many discussions when bankruptcy judges altering mortgage contracts was brought up? On, we couldn't do that to help people stay in their homes and avoid the tent cities that guy alluded to last night, no that would make way too much sense. But, we can alter the contracts of rich bankers, that's all right. Gabe, how do the courts view this?
Posted by: muffy at March 25, 2009 09:56 AM (zplc6)
86
Is it your contention that simply making "too much money" is in and of itself an unethical thing to do?
It is my contention that running the economy over the cliff is an unethical thing to do. An awful lot of rich people have shit the bed very badly here.
It is my contention that running the economy over the cliff is an unethical thing to do. An awful lot of rich people have shit the bed very badly here.
Posted by: flenser at March 25, 2009 09:56 AM (AYOtW)
87
But I ask you, what is a
contract? Webster's defines it as "an agreement under the law which
is unbreakable." Which is unbreakable! Excuse me, I must use the
restroom.
contract? Webster's defines it as "an agreement under the law which
is unbreakable." Which is unbreakable! Excuse me, I must use the
restroom.
Posted by: Lionel Hutz at March 25, 2009 09:56 AM (uN+M3)
88
If it's guaranteed it's not a bonus. A bonus is something you may or
may not get depending on the company's financial wellbeing.
Okay, I don't disagree with this. I very very very vaguely recall that the terminology on this is due to the thickets of regulations regarding compensation for financial services employees, though I may very well be wrong on that. This is a "bonus" to the extent that it is an end of term compensation payment. It's not a performance based bonus. I think much of the rage is stemming from the public hearing the term "bonus" and immediately assuming it was some type of performance reward. I'll admit, that was my first assumption.
may not get depending on the company's financial wellbeing.
Okay, I don't disagree with this. I very very very vaguely recall that the terminology on this is due to the thickets of regulations regarding compensation for financial services employees, though I may very well be wrong on that. This is a "bonus" to the extent that it is an end of term compensation payment. It's not a performance based bonus. I think much of the rage is stemming from the public hearing the term "bonus" and immediately assuming it was some type of performance reward. I'll admit, that was my first assumption.
Posted by: alexthechick at March 25, 2009 09:57 AM (SHHaV)
89
As is comparing everyone in ACORN to a shiftless bum.Every banker is not Madoff. He was just better than they were.
Posted by: RRowdy at March 25, 2009 09:47 AM (D2t2Y)
Madoff wasn't a "banker", you fucking moron. If you are gonna troll here, clean up the loose shit.
Posted by: RRowdy at March 25, 2009 09:47 AM (D2t2Y)
Madoff wasn't a "banker", you fucking moron. If you are gonna troll here, clean up the loose shit.
Posted by: A Balrog of Morgoth at March 25, 2009 09:57 AM (wgLRl)
90
alexthechick (if you really are a chick), great comment.
That's the core issue and why we're in the end of civilization (this part isn't as funny as most aspects), we're doomed.
The Constitution is an impediment to what the left (including Minitru) want to accomplish, they've been attacking it my whole life and they're winning.
The poor Constitution doesn't have anybody who's willing to stand up for it anymore and we're all screwed.
That's the core issue and why we're in the end of civilization (this part isn't as funny as most aspects), we're doomed.
The Constitution is an impediment to what the left (including Minitru) want to accomplish, they've been attacking it my whole life and they're winning.
The poor Constitution doesn't have anybody who's willing to stand up for it anymore and we're all screwed.
Posted by: Veeshir at March 25, 2009 09:57 AM (zXUuJ)
91
I'm so glad this letter was written and made public. For myself, I've been furious about the bailouts but never at the people working to try to fix the companies. When I heard about the "bonuses" I shrugged. They were legally binding contracts. The behavior of our government to unConstitutionally steal the monies owed to employees was beyond reprehensible. I have been appalled on a daily basis by what the Obamatards and his minions have done -- with little to no media outcry.
We need a tea party. We need a tea party real bad.
We need a tea party. We need a tea party real bad.
Posted by: Bibliophile at March 25, 2009 09:58 AM (y5VNb)
92
If it's guaranteed it's not a bonus.
Yes it is. It is a RETENTION BONUS, paid for staying with the company for a year. It is not a sales bonus, which is what you seem to think it is. This man may well have had a sales bonus structure written into his employment contract, but he willingly gave it up to work at a salary of one dollar a year, on the understanding that he would get a bonus if he stayed with the company a year. Apparently, someone believed he - and others like him - were so valuable to the company that keeping them in place for a year while they helped bring A.I.G. back to -or towards - profitability was worth the money.
Yes it is. It is a RETENTION BONUS, paid for staying with the company for a year. It is not a sales bonus, which is what you seem to think it is. This man may well have had a sales bonus structure written into his employment contract, but he willingly gave it up to work at a salary of one dollar a year, on the understanding that he would get a bonus if he stayed with the company a year. Apparently, someone believed he - and others like him - were so valuable to the company that keeping them in place for a year while they helped bring A.I.G. back to -or towards - profitability was worth the money.
Posted by: NEPA Dissident at March 25, 2009 09:58 AM (Ohodx)
93
What started this whole mess rolling is the great underclass taking
zero down loans with no ability to pay for them based on programs
started and maintained by Democrats.
This glosses over an important fact. The consumer is just half the lending equation. There is a party that APPROVED these loans. Until they can explain why and how they approved mortgages on $800,000 properties for single mothers with two children with employment as a bus driver, there's a huge hole in this argument.
Now, it may be that CRA and other social engineering regulation was involved, but we need these parties to start talking about that if that is the reason.
zero down loans with no ability to pay for them based on programs
started and maintained by Democrats.
This glosses over an important fact. The consumer is just half the lending equation. There is a party that APPROVED these loans. Until they can explain why and how they approved mortgages on $800,000 properties for single mothers with two children with employment as a bus driver, there's a huge hole in this argument.
Now, it may be that CRA and other social engineering regulation was involved, but we need these parties to start talking about that if that is the reason.
Posted by: WTF Capital Investments at March 25, 2009 09:58 AM (AHrTm)
94
Well, I'm not curious, actually. I know it's an irrational reaction sparked by jealousy and laziness.What you actually want is wealth for yourself, but if you can't get that you'll settle for knocking the rich down to your level.
Did you watch the bus video, Laura? There is an older women who says"I wish I knew what it was like to live in a house that big."
Straight up envy.
Did you watch the bus video, Laura? There is an older women who says"I wish I knew what it was like to live in a house that big."
Straight up envy.
Posted by: kidney, currently shuddering at the consequences at March 25, 2009 09:58 AM (FgUFX)
95
flenser -
Then punish the people who ACTUALLY DID THE DEED. You don't punish their co-workers in a completely different division.
If I may - The guy in the next cubicle kills his wife, but we can't find him. We're going to put you in prison for murder instead. Fair?
Then punish the people who ACTUALLY DID THE DEED. You don't punish their co-workers in a completely different division.
If I may - The guy in the next cubicle kills his wife, but we can't find him. We're going to put you in prison for murder instead. Fair?
Posted by: brian at March 25, 2009 09:58 AM (cPWTF)
96
I'm not a class-warrior. I don't hate rich people, except for publicly
whining rich people who don't know how to count their blessings,
So wait, now having a perfectly valid contract broken, after being told it wouldn't be, and being publicly called out to be named and shamed by the Attorney Generals of multiple states, not to mention Congress and the President, is a blessing? I do not think that word means what you think it means.
whining rich people who don't know how to count their blessings,
So wait, now having a perfectly valid contract broken, after being told it wouldn't be, and being publicly called out to be named and shamed by the Attorney Generals of multiple states, not to mention Congress and the President, is a blessing? I do not think that word means what you think it means.
Posted by: alexthechick at March 25, 2009 10:00 AM (SHHaV)
97
Those ACORN shits say they've never seen houses like the AIG execs have. Well, if you're intelligent, work hard in school, make good decisions, select a good career path, work long hard hours at your job, and create lots of wealth, you get to live in a house like that. On the other hand, if you're a slacker, and you take the easy subjects in school, and you goof off, and if your idea of hard work is to dab paint on a paper mache puppet between bong hits, you get to live in public housing and ride the bus. We all make choices in life, and not every choice leads to the same outcome.
Wellsaid.My edit and riff:
If you serve others well, they will reward you.
On a personal level, if a finance worker multiplies my 401(k) 10 times before I retire, I won't complain that he kept 0.5 percent for himself. I might even tip him.
Obama and ACORN want to screw that up with their class warfare, making the rest of us into their dependents.
Then we'll see who gets the rewards. Hint: It won't be us.
Wellsaid.My edit and riff:
If you serve others well, they will reward you.
On a personal level, if a finance worker multiplies my 401(k) 10 times before I retire, I won't complain that he kept 0.5 percent for himself. I might even tip him.
Obama and ACORN want to screw that up with their class warfare, making the rest of us into their dependents.
Then we'll see who gets the rewards. Hint: It won't be us.
Posted by: Michael Rittenhouse at March 25, 2009 10:01 AM (2QFX4)
Posted by: Techie at March 25, 2009 10:01 AM (QYuCD)
99
Alex @99 - Don't forget the death threats. That's the real blessing!
Posted by: brian at March 25, 2009 10:01 AM (cPWTF)
Posted by: Waterhouse at March 25, 2009 10:01 AM (uN+M3)
101
gp,
I know what you mean about the difficulty in feeling the pain of a rich man, but that difficulty is a weapon the commies and trolls use to divide people along class lines.
As ATC and others have said, this goes beyond one man's complaint. Trust in legal contracts is being poisoned. The rich are being targeted first, we are next.
I know what you mean about the difficulty in feeling the pain of a rich man, but that difficulty is a weapon the commies and trolls use to divide people along class lines.
As ATC and others have said, this goes beyond one man's complaint. Trust in legal contracts is being poisoned. The rich are being targeted first, we are next.
Posted by: Darth Bama at March 25, 2009 10:01 AM (RkZLl)
Posted by: alexthechick at March 25, 2009 10:01 AM (SHHaV)
103
I have heard no one suggest that the AIG bonus-takers did anything illegal.
Keep in mind, some of the people Barney Frank wants prosecuted under the law actually broke it, in his own estimation.
Keep in mind, some of the people Barney Frank wants prosecuted under the law actually broke it, in his own estimation.
Posted by: Entropy at March 25, 2009 10:04 AM (m6c4H)
Posted by: Old Sailor at March 25, 2009 10:04 AM (/Ft4q)
105
if there is such a class conflict, who should I be mad at? I'm a taxpayer. I know that a significant portion of the country pays no taxes and gets all sorts of benefits paid for by me. They even get to vote for folks who then tax me more to pay for the non-taxpaying voters to continue to vote for them. The government made AIG my problem. The government made those folks my problem. Can I be mad at all three?
Posted by: ed at March 25, 2009 10:04 AM (Urhve)
106
I'm not a class-warrior. I don't hate rich people, except for publicly whining rich people
No, you are simply being an asshole. Rich people have the same free speech rights as you and I. At least right now, they do. The Obama regime may have plans to change that - plans you apparently will back.
No, you are simply being an asshole. Rich people have the same free speech rights as you and I. At least right now, they do. The Obama regime may have plans to change that - plans you apparently will back.
Posted by: NEPA Dissident at March 25, 2009 10:05 AM (Ohodx)
107
Then punish the people who ACTUALLY DID THE DEED. You don't punish their co-workers in a completely different division.
AIG should be in chapter 11. You can say that that's "punishing innocent people" if you want, but if you do it's you who's the socialist. I'm sick and tired of this socialism for the wealthy and I've had a bellyfull of listening to it be defended by people who say they're conservatives and libertarians.
AIG should be in chapter 11. You can say that that's "punishing innocent people" if you want, but if you do it's you who's the socialist. I'm sick and tired of this socialism for the wealthy and I've had a bellyfull of listening to it be defended by people who say they're conservatives and libertarians.
Posted by: flenser at March 25, 2009 10:05 AM (AYOtW)
108
Still not showing you my tits.
Posted by: alexthechick at March 25, 2009 10:01 AM (SHHaV)
Right. NOW you are a blushing innocent.
Posted by: alexthechick at March 25, 2009 10:01 AM (SHHaV)
Right. NOW you are a blushing innocent.
Posted by: A Balrog of Morgoth at March 25, 2009 10:05 AM (wgLRl)
109
United States Constitution, Article I, section 10, clause 1. It states:
“ No State shall enter into any Treaty, Alliance, or Confederation; grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal; coin Money; emit Bills of Credit; make any Thing but gold and silver Coin a Tender in Payment of Debts; pass any Bill of Attainder, ex post facto Law, or Law impairing the Obligation of Contracts, or grant any Title of Nobility.
The oath to be taken by the president on first entering office is specified in Article II, Section 1, of the Constitution:
I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will faithfully execute the office of President of the United States, and will to the best of my ability, preserve, protect, and defend the Constitution of the United States.
Enough for removal from office? Probably not, yet.
Not until enough of the 52% morons(the bad kind) that voted for this guy and the Dims realize they're going down along with everything else.
“ No State shall enter into any Treaty, Alliance, or Confederation; grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal; coin Money; emit Bills of Credit; make any Thing but gold and silver Coin a Tender in Payment of Debts; pass any Bill of Attainder, ex post facto Law, or Law impairing the Obligation of Contracts, or grant any Title of Nobility.
The oath to be taken by the president on first entering office is specified in Article II, Section 1, of the Constitution:
I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will faithfully execute the office of President of the United States, and will to the best of my ability, preserve, protect, and defend the Constitution of the United States.
Enough for removal from office? Probably not, yet.
Not until enough of the 52% morons(the bad kind) that voted for this guy and the Dims realize they're going down along with everything else.
Posted by: rinseandspit at March 25, 2009 10:07 AM (ao5cQ)
110
flenser-
I'm not a class-warrior. I don't hate rich people, except for publicly whining rich people who don't know how to count their blessings,Can you read or is that another of your list of deficits? He didn't whine. In fact, he went out of his way to list the blessings he has received. Very publicly. He merely stated that the reason he was leaving was because the company that he was working for not only didn't support him but allowed him to be used as a public scapegoat.
And his act of donating the money he earned, yes earned, under a negotiated contract is an act of charity I doubt many would copy. I'm sure you wouldn't.
I'm not a class-warrior. I don't hate rich people, except for publicly whining rich people who don't know how to count their blessings,Can you read or is that another of your list of deficits? He didn't whine. In fact, he went out of his way to list the blessings he has received. Very publicly. He merely stated that the reason he was leaving was because the company that he was working for not only didn't support him but allowed him to be used as a public scapegoat.
And his act of donating the money he earned, yes earned, under a negotiated contract is an act of charity I doubt many would copy. I'm sure you wouldn't.
Posted by: JackStraw at March 25, 2009 10:07 AM (VW9/y)
111
The knucklehead cogito: Poor people are destroying america; the workers must be destroyed; bankers create wealth.
"Poor people are destroying america" No, but they are being used by the radical left to harm America.
"the workers must be destroyed" No one here is saying that. Straw man.
"bankers create wealth" They facilitate the creation of wealth. Which is more than I can say for ACORN, the Democratic party, Obama, you, or a goodly portion of "poor people" or "the workers."
"Poor people are destroying america" No, but they are being used by the radical left to harm America.
"the workers must be destroyed" No one here is saying that. Straw man.
"bankers create wealth" They facilitate the creation of wealth. Which is more than I can say for ACORN, the Democratic party, Obama, you, or a goodly portion of "poor people" or "the workers."
Posted by: NEPA Dissident at March 25, 2009 10:10 AM (Ohodx)
112
The term "bonus" should probably be seen in the same light as an athlete receiving a "signing bonus". It is performance-based in the sense that you don't get the bonus if you don't sign; but if you sign and stay for the period of time determined in the contract, you are due the money irrespective of your performance on the field.
It's a contact, and a common kind. I have received these kinds of bonuses myself, albeit nowhere near these amounts. And if I were denied the bonuses based on some stupid populist faux-outrage, I would definitely sue the breaker of the contract. I don't care what the terms of the contract are: if both parties understand the terms and both are able to legally sign, then the contract is valid. It is a matter between the principals, not third-parties who get their panties in a bunch based on what the ladies on The View said.
People who oppose this kind of thing ought to really consider why they object to it. I don't particularly like a world that pays athletes tens of millions of dollars a year while pediatricians cannot make a go of private practice due to malpractice costs; I don't like a world that showers money on inane actors while exquisite carpenters, plumbers, and truck-drivers have to go on relief; and I don't like a world where a shrill harpy like Nancy Pelosi feels obliged to lecture me on living responsibly while at the same time using chartered jets like her own personal car service.
I don't like any of these things, but I accept them because these are the wages of living in the world. It ain't far. It never was fair, and it's never gonna be fair. Trying to make it fair is doomed to failure, and will only increase the general misery.
Stop focusing on "deserve", chum. None of us deserves what we have -- we can only be thankful we have it, and pray for the wisdom to live our lives as well as we can.
It's a contact, and a common kind. I have received these kinds of bonuses myself, albeit nowhere near these amounts. And if I were denied the bonuses based on some stupid populist faux-outrage, I would definitely sue the breaker of the contract. I don't care what the terms of the contract are: if both parties understand the terms and both are able to legally sign, then the contract is valid. It is a matter between the principals, not third-parties who get their panties in a bunch based on what the ladies on The View said.
People who oppose this kind of thing ought to really consider why they object to it. I don't particularly like a world that pays athletes tens of millions of dollars a year while pediatricians cannot make a go of private practice due to malpractice costs; I don't like a world that showers money on inane actors while exquisite carpenters, plumbers, and truck-drivers have to go on relief; and I don't like a world where a shrill harpy like Nancy Pelosi feels obliged to lecture me on living responsibly while at the same time using chartered jets like her own personal car service.
I don't like any of these things, but I accept them because these are the wages of living in the world. It ain't far. It never was fair, and it's never gonna be fair. Trying to make it fair is doomed to failure, and will only increase the general misery.
Stop focusing on "deserve", chum. None of us deserves what we have -- we can only be thankful we have it, and pray for the wisdom to live our lives as well as we can.
Posted by: Monty at March 25, 2009 10:11 AM (/0a60)
Posted by: alexthechick at March 25, 2009 10:12 AM (SHHaV)
114
Still not showing you my tits.
But...I already sent you the twenty bucks! WTF?!?
(Could I have been misled here? Surely not. Surely. Alexthechick would not have have led me on so cruelly....)
But...I already sent you the twenty bucks! WTF?!?
(Could I have been misled here? Surely not. Surely. Alexthechick would not have have led me on so cruelly....)
Posted by: Monty at March 25, 2009 10:12 AM (/0a60)
115
The rich are being targeted first, we are next.
The rich aren't being targeted, you fucking morons. The rich are doing the targeting. The rich are being bailed out to the tune of trillions of dollars by the American taxapyer. Hey, Congress, please target me like that.
The rich aren't being targeted, you fucking morons. The rich are doing the targeting. The rich are being bailed out to the tune of trillions of dollars by the American taxapyer. Hey, Congress, please target me like that.
Posted by: flenser at March 25, 2009 10:12 AM (AYOtW)
116
Flenser - dump the non-sequitur in the lake.
The only reason any of us ever signed on to any bailout was because we were dumb enough to believe Paulson. I am now convinced that simply letting Bear, Lehman, and AIG fail would have been the better option. It would have wiped out a huge chunk of people's savings, but that's what we get for letting the biggest chunk of our economy be "financial services".
What's at issue here is not "bailout good" or "bailout bad". What's at issue is the government changing the rules of the game after everyone's taken the field.
The only reason any of us ever signed on to any bailout was because we were dumb enough to believe Paulson. I am now convinced that simply letting Bear, Lehman, and AIG fail would have been the better option. It would have wiped out a huge chunk of people's savings, but that's what we get for letting the biggest chunk of our economy be "financial services".
What's at issue here is not "bailout good" or "bailout bad". What's at issue is the government changing the rules of the game after everyone's taken the field.
Posted by: brian at March 25, 2009 10:12 AM (cPWTF)
Posted by: eman at March 25, 2009 10:13 AM (RkZLl)
118
Eventually, you're going to need to use every computer in the library, ergie.
Posted by: ergastularius at March 25, 2009 10:13 AM (qLhuy)
119
If those AIG employees were the real evil-rich-bastards that the Democrats made them out to be, then they'd all quit, hedge against AIG and make a killing. It's pretty easy to bleed out a company when you know where allthe arteries are routed.
Posted by: Roy at March 25, 2009 10:13 AM (oGx8y)
120
I'm sick and tired of this socialism for the wealthy and I've had a
bellyfull of listening to it be defended by people who say they're
conservatives and libertarians.
I am intensely curious, how is demanding that AIG honor legally valid contracts socialism?
And Monty, incredibly well said.
bellyfull of listening to it be defended by people who say they're
conservatives and libertarians.
I am intensely curious, how is demanding that AIG honor legally valid contracts socialism?
And Monty, incredibly well said.
Posted by: alexthechick at March 25, 2009 10:14 AM (SHHaV)
121
That's me, pure as the driven snow.
So we have to (strip you naked and) throw you in a body of water and if you float you're a witch, and if you sink you are innocent.
I have a bath tub we can use for this experiment.
So we have to (strip you naked and) throw you in a body of water and if you float you're a witch, and if you sink you are innocent.
I have a bath tub we can use for this experiment.
Posted by: NEPA Dissident at March 25, 2009 10:15 AM (Ohodx)
122
Wanted... Dedicated Professional, willing to work to save a $Hundreds of Billions of
taxpayer dollars... Must be willing to be Beat About the Head and
Shoulders for something that isn't your fault... Pay: Zero.
taxpayer dollars... Must be willing to be Beat About the Head and
Shoulders for something that isn't your fault... Pay: Zero.
Posted by: franksalterego at March 25, 2009 10:15 AM (GKyIE)
123
(Could I have been misled here? Surely not. Surely. Alexthechick would not have have led me on so cruelly....)
I am simply following the new rules of contract interpretation as set forth by the Obama Administration and Congress. Or, more succinctly, SUCKER!
I am simply following the new rules of contract interpretation as set forth by the Obama Administration and Congress. Or, more succinctly, SUCKER!
Posted by: alexthechick at March 25, 2009 10:16 AM (SHHaV)
124
Mention ACORN and ergy appears; like flies to shit.
Posted by: toby928 at March 25, 2009 10:16 AM (PD1tk)
125
Joke of the Day:
The real reason Obama is not concerned about trillions in new debt:
The Dept. of Defense briefed the president this morning, they told
Obama that 2 Brazilian soldiers were killed in Iraq. To everyone's
surprise, all the color drained from Obama's face.
Then he collapsed onto his desk, head in his hands, visibly shaken,
almost in tears. Finally, he composed himself and asked, "Just how many
is a Brazilian?"
The real reason Obama is not concerned about trillions in new debt:
The Dept. of Defense briefed the president this morning, they told
Obama that 2 Brazilian soldiers were killed in Iraq. To everyone's
surprise, all the color drained from Obama's face.
Then he collapsed onto his desk, head in his hands, visibly shaken,
almost in tears. Finally, he composed himself and asked, "Just how many
is a Brazilian?"
Posted by: Anti-Harkonnen Freedom Fighter at March 25, 2009 10:16 AM (5r0Tz)
Posted by: Monty at March 25, 2009 10:17 AM (/0a60)
127
See a trend here?Home buyerssign a bank loan that they don't read, all hell breaks loose.
Congress signs a stimulus bill that they don't read, all hell breaks loose.
Don't agree to shit that you haven't read. We are a nation of laws and contracts should be governed by law. I sadly think that some people think that, I'll just sign it and if I don't like it later, I'll sue."
This is the crap that bogs down our court system with frivolous lawsuits simply because someone was too lazy to read the contract. I'm in realestate and development and I HATE reading this legalese crap, but I still do it. It's part of my RESPONSIBILITY to my self.
Congress signs a stimulus bill that they don't read, all hell breaks loose.
Don't agree to shit that you haven't read. We are a nation of laws and contracts should be governed by law. I sadly think that some people think that, I'll just sign it and if I don't like it later, I'll sue."
This is the crap that bogs down our court system with frivolous lawsuits simply because someone was too lazy to read the contract. I'm in realestate and development and I HATE reading this legalese crap, but I still do it. It's part of my RESPONSIBILITY to my self.
Posted by: tcbevo at March 25, 2009 10:17 AM (z4daD)
128
It is rich watching some of these pathetic, envious crybabies post on how this guy is some silver spoon fed Kennedy type who was handed a high paying job.
This guy came from modest means, made his way into where he is at, was part of the company that actually made good profits, worked for 1 dollar a year and then rightfully resigned after getting screwed out of his agreed upon compensation.
This guy is a hero, an old school American hero from the age of the sky is the limit instead of the new land of $249,999.00 a year.
A littler bad news for the cry babies, this guy will be a financial success no matter where he goes, which I hope is out of the country at this point because YES, I want socialism and nationalization to fail......and it no doubt will.
This guy came from modest means, made his way into where he is at, was part of the company that actually made good profits, worked for 1 dollar a year and then rightfully resigned after getting screwed out of his agreed upon compensation.
This guy is a hero, an old school American hero from the age of the sky is the limit instead of the new land of $249,999.00 a year.
A littler bad news for the cry babies, this guy will be a financial success no matter where he goes, which I hope is out of the country at this point because YES, I want socialism and nationalization to fail......and it no doubt will.
Posted by: Drider at March 25, 2009 10:17 AM (lwt+p)
129
116,
flenser,
Wake the fuck up. Dude.
We know rich people are getting bailed out. But, this whole mess was manufactured by class warfare.
flenser,
Wake the fuck up. Dude.
We know rich people are getting bailed out. But, this whole mess was manufactured by class warfare.
Posted by: eman at March 25, 2009 10:17 AM (RkZLl)
130
Socialism for the wealthy? I don't think so.This is a usurpation of the Constitution. Fortunately the Corporate Bonus Tax Bill failed in the Senate. But I'm not convinced that Obama and the Reid/Pelosi Congressare through trying to dismantle the Constitution.It doesn't matter what any of us feel emotionally about these people's salaries and bonuses. If it was a private company, it is none of our business. If it was a public company, then it is only the business of the shareholders and the Board of Directors. And it is never, ever, the business of our government.This is class warfare all right, and if you're falling for this strategy of Obama, the democrats, and all the other Statists in this country that demonize capitalism and profits and salaries and bonuses then we are doomed. And you will be doomed.The Constitution specifically prohibits the gov't from enacting bills of attainder. Obama ginsup the hate, he was at it again last night, and the majority of the populace turns around and wants blood. That is exactly what he wants and this is nothing but mob rule. The Constitution is designed to prevent mob rule by giving us law and order.Once Obama is able to dictate bonuses and salaries, then he'll go after the profits of the oil companies. The Statists have ginned up the country to hate the oil companies and their profits. Once Obama accomplishes that he'll be coming after you because by then you will have no Constitutional guarantee of your private property. Anything the State wants it will take and by then there will be nothing standing in its way.I hear the thinking of the Statist every day. No one should be allowed to drive an SUV. No one should be allowed to build that big of a house. No one should be allowed to make that much money. No one should be allowed to have that many children. No one should be allowed to . . . Fill it in, I know you hear this kind of talk every day yourself.This is exactly why the Cult of Personality is so dangerous, so extremely dangerous. The Cult has been ginned up to hate. Yesterday the hate was directed at Rush Limbaugh. Today the hate is directed at "Wall Street greed". With the support of the Cult, Obama will exact his pound of flesh and you will see it as good because it will satiate your hate.And tomorrow? Tomorrow the hate will be directed at another class because that is how class warfare is conducted. Until the day the hate is directed at you. And there will be no Constitution to protect you. And there will be no one to speak up for you because you have enabled the destruction of all those who would speak on your behalf.
Posted by: RB at March 25, 2009 10:17 AM (ewXBY)
131
Those ACORN shits say they've never seen houses like the AIG execs have.
They might try the ACORN higher-ups, I'll bet that their homes rival the AIG execs'.
They might try the ACORN higher-ups, I'll bet that their homes rival the AIG execs'.
Posted by: IllTemperedCur at March 25, 2009 10:18 AM (yzuYS)
132
AIG should be in chapter 11.
BING FUCKING GO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
BING FUCKING GO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Posted by: Circa (Insert Year Here) at March 25, 2009 10:19 AM (B+qrE)
133
to the posters saying fuck him and he's set for life, your a bunch of fucking hater bitches. i really hate people like you's. So i guess forget that dude paid his way through school, applying hardwork, and now, you wanna hate. i hope you kind of people never have or own anything on your lives, and if/when you do, you lose it all.
Posted by: slizzle at March 25, 2009 10:20 AM (zG+3k)
134
The term "bonus" should probably be seen in the same light as an athlete receiving a "signing bonus".
If and when the Tigers get taken over by the US government, I'll object to the Tigers players getting taxpayer bonuses also.
You people keep acting as if AIG is some private company. It's not. It's run by the US government. As far as anyone can see the only reason the feds run it is to act as a conduit for the money they want to send elsewhere. I'd just as soon cut out the middle-man and give umpty billion to HSBC or whoever. And I'd really prefer that the government cease and desist from giving away taxpayer money to anyone.
If and when the Tigers get taken over by the US government, I'll object to the Tigers players getting taxpayer bonuses also.
You people keep acting as if AIG is some private company. It's not. It's run by the US government. As far as anyone can see the only reason the feds run it is to act as a conduit for the money they want to send elsewhere. I'd just as soon cut out the middle-man and give umpty billion to HSBC or whoever. And I'd really prefer that the government cease and desist from giving away taxpayer money to anyone.
Posted by: flenser at March 25, 2009 10:20 AM (AYOtW)
135
AIG should be in chapter 11. . . .
Posted by: flenser at March 25, 2009 10:05 AM (AYOtW)
You probably won't find too many people here who disagree with that. It would have worked perfectly well for AIG if it were not for the federal
government's desire to funnel payments to AIG's counterparties--most
notably, European banks--without taking responsibility for doing so.
Under Obama's proposal, every time an insurance company becomes
insolvent it will be another opportunity to expand federal power.
You came blame Obama, Timmy and congress for that--but not DeSantis.
AIG should be in chapter 11. . . .
Posted by: flenser at March 25, 2009 10:05 AM (AYOtW)
You probably won't find too many people here who disagree with that. It would have worked perfectly well for AIG if it were not for the federal
government's desire to funnel payments to AIG's counterparties--most
notably, European banks--without taking responsibility for doing so.
Under Obama's proposal, every time an insurance company becomes
insolvent it will be another opportunity to expand federal power.
You came blame Obama, Timmy and congress for that--but not DeSantis.
Posted by: Tinian at March 25, 2009 10:21 AM (Ohodx)
136
Socialism for the wealthy? I don't think so.
Are you fucking blind?
Are you fucking blind?
Posted by: flenser at March 25, 2009 10:22 AM (AYOtW)
137
Money envy. It's everywhere now.
Soon, money will be a political conveyance instead of an economic one.
Soon, money will be a political conveyance instead of an economic one.
Posted by: Old Sailor at March 25, 2009 10:22 AM (/Ft4q)
138
"95
Well, I'm not curious, actually. I know it's an irrational reaction sparked by jealousy and laziness.
What you actually want is wealth for yourself, but if you can't get that you'll settle for knocking the rich down to your level.
Did you watch the bus video, Laura? There is an older women who
says"I wish I knew what it was like to live in a house that big."
Straight up envy.
Posted by: kidney, currently shuddering at the consequences at March 25, 2009 09:58 AM (FgUFX)"How many people scraped and clawded their way through undergrad and professional or grad school? How much ramen did everyone eat while working three part time jobs? No one ever talks about how difficult it can be to get an education. They always assme the education went to some rich spoiled brat with daddy paying. Shame on BO, he of all people should know what it is like to have to claw your way up and he isn't getting this across. Sure many people have their education handed to them. Heck many people have both sets of parents hand them a house after the wedding. Many kids get a car in HS. But, the vast majority don't have it so good. They work their butts off and it is a constant stuggle but they do it and if you are going to start taking the rewards of their hard work away from them then you are taking the American dream with it and that is just plain wrong. Besides if everyone is the same, money is spread around, everyone thinks alike well we won't be the exciting country we are today. Our dynamic will be gone and we will be in danger of being boring and pedestrian. Ugh.
Well, I'm not curious, actually. I know it's an irrational reaction sparked by jealousy and laziness.
What you actually want is wealth for yourself, but if you can't get that you'll settle for knocking the rich down to your level.
Did you watch the bus video, Laura? There is an older women who
says"I wish I knew what it was like to live in a house that big."
Straight up envy.
Posted by: kidney, currently shuddering at the consequences at March 25, 2009 09:58 AM (FgUFX)"How many people scraped and clawded their way through undergrad and professional or grad school? How much ramen did everyone eat while working three part time jobs? No one ever talks about how difficult it can be to get an education. They always assme the education went to some rich spoiled brat with daddy paying. Shame on BO, he of all people should know what it is like to have to claw your way up and he isn't getting this across. Sure many people have their education handed to them. Heck many people have both sets of parents hand them a house after the wedding. Many kids get a car in HS. But, the vast majority don't have it so good. They work their butts off and it is a constant stuggle but they do it and if you are going to start taking the rewards of their hard work away from them then you are taking the American dream with it and that is just plain wrong. Besides if everyone is the same, money is spread around, everyone thinks alike well we won't be the exciting country we are today. Our dynamic will be gone and we will be in danger of being boring and pedestrian. Ugh.
Posted by: muffy at March 25, 2009 10:23 AM (zplc6)
139
And I'd really prefer that the government cease and desist from giving away taxpayer money to anyone.
Now, that's a different argument and one I can agree with.
Now, that's a different argument and one I can agree with.
Posted by: toby928 at March 25, 2009 10:23 AM (PD1tk)
140
Morning All. Here is the linky to the Actual Op-Ed at the NYT, published yesterday. Anybody but me think it's mighty damn curious that there are NO COMMENTS to this??!! Amazing Bullshiit. Godspeed Mr. DeSantis: he is doing the right thing for himself, his family, and his/our country. I can only hope that he and his family do not suffer too horribly for having stood up to out-and-out B.S. and 'outing' himself to more ObamACORN tour busses. God Help Us All.
Posted by: Cyn at March 25, 2009 10:24 AM (kbu8g)
141
#14 And the house that the ACORN scum are posing in front of is hardly a mansion. It looks like an ofdinary, suburban,four-bedroom house the frontage of which is about three car-lengths long, judging by the car parked in the driveway, with a separate garage. Then again, the 30-million people Bill Ayers wanted to murder immediately after seizing power would have lived in suburban houses like that, so maybe it is the socialist standard for their wished-for killing fields. (Kind of like the Khmer Rouge killing anyone with eye-glasses as they werebook-reading, bourgeois shit from the citystanding in the way of agrarian reform.)
Posted by: andycanuck at March 25, 2009 10:25 AM (nAPly)
142
ofdinary ordinary
Posted by: andycanuck at March 25, 2009 10:25 AM (nAPly)
143
"133
AIG should be in chapter 11.
BING FUCKING GO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Posted by: Circa (Insert Year Here) at March 25, 2009 10:19 AM (B+qrE)"There is a long list of companies who should be in chapter 11 and it seems they are all being rescued. Except BSC and Lehman of course, they were allowed to fail and they started the snowball rolling down the hill. Eventually it becomes a snow bolder and that is what is happening now.
AIG should be in chapter 11.
BING FUCKING GO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Posted by: Circa (Insert Year Here) at March 25, 2009 10:19 AM (B+qrE)"There is a long list of companies who should be in chapter 11 and it seems they are all being rescued. Except BSC and Lehman of course, they were allowed to fail and they started the snowball rolling down the hill. Eventually it becomes a snow bolder and that is what is happening now.
Posted by: muffy at March 25, 2009 10:26 AM (zplc6)
144
It wasn't really a bail out. With everything Uncle Barack has planned, and is trying to push through, it is a plan to nationalize our major financial institutions.
It is more of a takeover disguised as a bailout.
It is more of a takeover disguised as a bailout.
Posted by: Uniball at March 25, 2009 10:26 AM (27iEn)
145
You people keep acting as if AIG is some private company.
Actually, it is still a private company. It has not been nationalized. (It's a fine line, granted -- 80% of the company's shares are owned by taxpayers via a government-run trust.)
Further, most of these contracts were in force before the government bought a controlling interest in the company. And since AIG was bailed out rather than forced into Chapter 11, the contracts remained in force. Had AIG gone into bankruptcy, the contracts could have been abrogated -- and both Bernanke and Geithner knew that going in, and chose not to do that.
The basic point is that the contracts were legally entered into, legally binding at the time of execution, and remained in force with the agreement of all counterparties during and after the bailout. Thus: there is no grounds for a clawback of the bonuses.
Actually, it is still a private company. It has not been nationalized. (It's a fine line, granted -- 80% of the company's shares are owned by taxpayers via a government-run trust.)
Further, most of these contracts were in force before the government bought a controlling interest in the company. And since AIG was bailed out rather than forced into Chapter 11, the contracts remained in force. Had AIG gone into bankruptcy, the contracts could have been abrogated -- and both Bernanke and Geithner knew that going in, and chose not to do that.
The basic point is that the contracts were legally entered into, legally binding at the time of execution, and remained in force with the agreement of all counterparties during and after the bailout. Thus: there is no grounds for a clawback of the bonuses.
Posted by: Monty at March 25, 2009 10:27 AM (/0a60)
146
Okay--NOW there are comments showing up. Hmmm...
Posted by: Cyn at March 25, 2009 10:27 AM (kbu8g)
147
Check out Uncle Hugo and everything he has done, compare the two. Uncle Hugo and Uncle Barack are very similar.
Posted by: Uniball at March 25, 2009 10:27 AM (27iEn)
Posted by: Farmer_Joe at March 25, 2009 10:28 AM (z4es9)
149
I guess i'll hold my breath on ACORN tours of the senators houses in VA, you know, they guys we pay our tax dollars to that are fucking up the country. Trust me, i've been to DC and worked in Neighborhoods of some of these Senators. There is this one house down there, with 4 huge columns in the front, 2 of which cost more than my freaking house.....
Posted by: slizzle at March 25, 2009 10:28 AM (zG+3k)
150
#16 And where is the press to set the record straight. To INFORM the uninformed about contracts that were agreed upon.
And the MSM is also giving the false impression that these were performance bonuses and not, as in truth,retention bonuses.
And the MSM is also giving the false impression that these were performance bonuses and not, as in truth,retention bonuses.
Posted by: andycanuck at March 25, 2009 10:28 AM (nAPly)
Posted by: Tinian at March 25, 2009 10:29 AM (Ohodx)
152
I KNEW there was an other-side-to-the-story, andI have been eager to hear it since the debacle started.
Politicians stoking the class warfare populismmake me sick.
Politicians stoking the class warfare populismmake me sick.
Posted by: Micheal at March 25, 2009 10:31 AM (iggjG)
153
You came blame Obama, Timmy and congress for that--but not DeSantis.
No, I can blame him also. The political class was not acting alone in creating this bubble.
This is class warfare all right, and if you're falling for this strategy of Obama, the democrats, and all the other Statists in this country that demonize capitalism and profits and salaries and bonuses then we are doomed. And you will be doomed.
You people continue to live in your stupid little Randian fantasy world where "the capitalists" and "the statists" are mortal enemies. In real life they are working hand in glove. Whose damn payroll were Obama and Dodd on? AIG's. Fannies. Freddies. The banks. The developers.
You live in fear of some 1930's vision of the old Sovet Union. If you want a glimpse of what our politicans and our capitalists have in mind for us, look to modern day Russia or China.
No, I can blame him also. The political class was not acting alone in creating this bubble.
This is class warfare all right, and if you're falling for this strategy of Obama, the democrats, and all the other Statists in this country that demonize capitalism and profits and salaries and bonuses then we are doomed. And you will be doomed.
You people continue to live in your stupid little Randian fantasy world where "the capitalists" and "the statists" are mortal enemies. In real life they are working hand in glove. Whose damn payroll were Obama and Dodd on? AIG's. Fannies. Freddies. The banks. The developers.
You live in fear of some 1930's vision of the old Sovet Union. If you want a glimpse of what our politicans and our capitalists have in mind for us, look to modern day Russia or China.
Posted by: flenser at March 25, 2009 10:31 AM (AYOtW)
154
This AIG dude is no hero.
A hero would have kept the money and said come get it fuckers, I will see you in court. A hero would go on the Radio or TV and explain it out. It really is not that difficult.
1. It was in my contract: $1 plus bonus.
2. CONGRESS specifically put language in bill for my bonus.
3. President Obama singed into LAW.
4. I'm sorry you don't like it.
5. Don't you like the law?
Instead he goes Oprah.
Fuck him again.
A hero would have kept the money and said come get it fuckers, I will see you in court. A hero would go on the Radio or TV and explain it out. It really is not that difficult.
1. It was in my contract: $1 plus bonus.
2. CONGRESS specifically put language in bill for my bonus.
3. President Obama singed into LAW.
4. I'm sorry you don't like it.
5. Don't you like the law?
Instead he goes Oprah.
Fuck him again.
Posted by: Pelvis at March 25, 2009 10:32 AM (LlaBi)
155
What Monty, AtC and RB have been saying.
it's shitting on the Constitution, pure and simple.
Class warfare is the tool doing the shredding.
Any tool can get idiots on a bus looking at nice homes to entice them to an Emmanuel Goldstein 2 minute hate frenzy.
it's shitting on the Constitution, pure and simple.
Class warfare is the tool doing the shredding.
Any tool can get idiots on a bus looking at nice homes to entice them to an Emmanuel Goldstein 2 minute hate frenzy.
Posted by: Dave C at March 25, 2009 10:33 AM (LSZ4Y)
156
It is layers upon layers of bullchit. My friend said the other day that they could have just helped out all the homeowners and the companies and done it quietly and that would be that. But no, they have to put their little grimy fingerprints on it and just make it more and more convoluted. She's in PR, she said the PR people are failing miserably. She says if you explain clearly to the American people what is going on and why and stick to what you said, that they, the American people are not stupid and will rise to the occassion. She said they are committing the mortal sin that PR people hate. They keep changing the game.
Posted by: muffy at March 25, 2009 10:33 AM (zplc6)
157
Looters vs. producers. Cuffy Meigs vs. Hank Rearden. The DemonRats are only too happy to demonize working producers of wealth to take the focus off of them and their failed policies! Liberals are too lazy or stupid to think for themselves. Atlas is shrugging.
Posted by: Angry White Dude at March 25, 2009 10:34 AM (XYzZq)
Posted by: ether at March 25, 2009 10:35 AM (D+Ibp)
159
I think Atlas has stopped shrugging at this point. The incredulity of it all.
Posted by: Cyn at March 25, 2009 10:36 AM (kbu8g)
160
.....like their patron Saint, Bernard MadoffLike the "big-time Democratic contributor, Bernard Madoff," I think you mean, RRowdy.
BTW, did the newspapers you claim to have worked for report on Bernie's political persuasion? A link or two would be nice if they/it did.
BTW, did the newspapers you claim to have worked for report on Bernie's political persuasion? A link or two would be nice if they/it did.
Posted by: andycanuck at March 25, 2009 10:36 AM (nAPly)
161
Producers of wealth if you accept naked CDS gaming a fucking revenue stream.
The whole company should have been liquidated and what's left of its "assets" sold in the market.
Fuck this apology, and fuck the whole inept company.
The whole company should have been liquidated and what's left of its "assets" sold in the market.
Fuck this apology, and fuck the whole inept company.
Posted by: ether at March 25, 2009 10:37 AM (D+Ibp)
162
You people continue to live in your stupid little Randian fantasy world where "the capitalists" and "the statists" are mortal enemies. In real life they are working hand in glove. Whose damn payroll were Obama and Dodd on? AIG's. Fannies. Freddies. The banks. The developers.
Wait, are you suggesting that this guy is at fault because the *Government* thought it needed to bailout AIG? It was the poli whiz kids that thought that AIG was "too big to fail". This guy as far as we know was not lobbying to be bought out. He had a contract, the fact that government bought it out and did not invalidate his contract is not his fault. You are in a stupid populist world...go live in you Anarchist dream land, fool.
Wait, are you suggesting that this guy is at fault because the *Government* thought it needed to bailout AIG? It was the poli whiz kids that thought that AIG was "too big to fail". This guy as far as we know was not lobbying to be bought out. He had a contract, the fact that government bought it out and did not invalidate his contract is not his fault. You are in a stupid populist world...go live in you Anarchist dream land, fool.
Posted by: Punch a Hippie at March 25, 2009 10:38 AM (LSydU)
163
I think half the outrage is caused by the word "bonus". People think of a "bonus" as a reward. But these are deferred salaries, structured to force you to stay around and work on the problem instead of bailing.
Posted by: lmg at March 25, 2009 10:38 AM (A/vgC)
164
This guy should be recruited to run for Senate against Dodd.
This guy gave money to Dodd's campaign
This guy gave money to Dodd's campaign
Posted by: tinkerbella at March 25, 2009 10:39 AM (92599)
165
Actually, it is still a private company. It has not been nationalized. (It's a fine line, granted -- 80% of the company's shares are owned by taxpayers via a government-run trust.)
If you are 80% owned by the government, you are not a private company. If you depend on the state to meet your bills, you are not a private company. The feds want to keep some pretence that AIG is a private company simply so that they can have some distance from what AIG is doing - which is funneling US taxpayer dollars to European banks.
The basic point is that the contracts were legally entered into, legally binding at the time of execution, and remained in force with the agreement of all counterparties during and after the bailout.
Well, you continue to have that argument with whoever you're having it with.
If you are 80% owned by the government, you are not a private company. If you depend on the state to meet your bills, you are not a private company. The feds want to keep some pretence that AIG is a private company simply so that they can have some distance from what AIG is doing - which is funneling US taxpayer dollars to European banks.
The basic point is that the contracts were legally entered into, legally binding at the time of execution, and remained in force with the agreement of all counterparties during and after the bailout.
Well, you continue to have that argument with whoever you're having it with.
Posted by: flenser at March 25, 2009 10:41 AM (AYOtW)
166
First they came for the Communists, but I was not a Communist so I did not speak out. Then they came for the Socialists and the Trade Unionists, but I was neither, so I did not speak out. Then they came for the Jews, but I was not a Jew so I did not speak out. Then they came for the AIG executives, but I was not an AIG executive so I did not speak out. And when they came for me, there was no one left to speak out for me.
Posted by: Martin Niemoller Jr. at March 25, 2009 10:41 AM (JEhQl)
167
My "i'm going to make it as a film maker" friend recently was heard to say "if this were in a screenplay, you wouldn't use it, it transcends credulity". This immediately generated an email among our friends as he was/is BO's biggest supporter in our group.
Posted by: muffy at March 25, 2009 10:41 AM (zplc6)
168
Ed Morrissey: People have been calling the AIG bonus outrage “understandable.” That’s a load of crap. It springs from a fundamental lack of understanding in Congress about the business world and an almost criminal lack of curiosity about the nature of retention bonuses in general...
This really frosts me. The easy sloth of rage and the instinct to follow the herd has infected too many conservatives. Or people I thought were conservatives. A guy with an alleged reputation for intelligence like Michael Medved has himself leaped upon the bandwagon, playing his pitchfork at high C. He’s just another fair-weather conservative. I actually heard him on air recently scold Obastard for, get this, not being direct enough in demanding the return of bonuses from AIG employees. Freakin’ tool you are, Medved.
This really frosts me. The easy sloth of rage and the instinct to follow the herd has infected too many conservatives. Or people I thought were conservatives. A guy with an alleged reputation for intelligence like Michael Medved has himself leaped upon the bandwagon, playing his pitchfork at high C. He’s just another fair-weather conservative. I actually heard him on air recently scold Obastard for, get this, not being direct enough in demanding the return of bonuses from AIG employees. Freakin’ tool you are, Medved.
Posted by: George Orwell at March 25, 2009 10:42 AM (AZGON)
Posted by: toby928 at March 25, 2009 10:42 AM (PD1tk)
170
Which way to Galt's Gulch?.....
Posted by: t at March 25, 2009 10:43 AM (xSPT9)
171
Wait, are you suggesting that this guy is at fault because the *Government* thought it needed to bailout AIG?
What part of the words you quoted ledyou to that conclusion? The words you quoted made no reference to "this guy"
What part of the words you quoted ledyou to that conclusion? The words you quoted made no reference to "this guy"
Posted by: flenser at March 25, 2009 10:45 AM (AYOtW)
172
Let me see if I have this right.
Dems wrote the Porkulus Bill.
AIG bonuses werefirst omitted then rewritten backinto the Porkulusbillwritten by Dems.
Obama signed said Porkulus Bill, which contained the bonusesreinserted by Dems.
Dems and Obamaraise holy hellwhen AIG execs get bonuses. Fwank and Cuomowant names and addresses of innocent execs who violated no law, but instead were complying with it. ACORN organizes a sightseeing/illegal harassment tour of execs homes with MSM in tow.
Soooo, is all this correct? If so, are the Dems certifiably insane?
Now can we have them removed from office?
Dems wrote the Porkulus Bill.
AIG bonuses werefirst omitted then rewritten backinto the Porkulusbillwritten by Dems.
Obama signed said Porkulus Bill, which contained the bonusesreinserted by Dems.
Dems and Obamaraise holy hellwhen AIG execs get bonuses. Fwank and Cuomowant names and addresses of innocent execs who violated no law, but instead were complying with it. ACORN organizes a sightseeing/illegal harassment tour of execs homes with MSM in tow.
Soooo, is all this correct? If so, are the Dems certifiably insane?
Now can we have them removed from office?
Posted by: BackwardsBoy at March 25, 2009 10:45 AM (ZGhSv)
173
For those of you who say 'fuck this guy', you have bitten into exactly that sandwich TeH ONe and his crew have prepared for you. The outrage is manufactured--admissions have been revealed that everyone who should have known about the 'bonus money' (and I use quotes because 'bonus' is a misnomer)actually did know about the money. DeSantis' example of not paying the plumber because the electrician burned the house down is spot-on. Cloward, Piven, and Alinsky must be beaming with pride.
Posted by: Cyn at March 25, 2009 10:46 AM (kbu8g)
174
No, I can blame him also.
Yes, you have the right to be stupid.
The political class was not acting alone in creating this bubble.
How do you know DeSantis was in on it?
No, I can blame him also.
Yes, you have the right to be stupid.
The political class was not acting alone in creating this bubble.
How do you know DeSantis was in on it?
Posted by: Tinian at March 25, 2009 10:46 AM (Ohodx)
Posted by: Uniball at March 25, 2009 10:46 AM (27iEn)
176
How you all call yourselves conservatives while at the same time defending"bonuses" for a "company" that is promised to be infinitely backstopped by sweat of the taxpayers is fucking astounding.
In afree market, government would assign a conservator and liquidate, not nationalize, and certainly not backstop as a personal teet for the proven inept.
Delusional.
In afree market, government would assign a conservator and liquidate, not nationalize, and certainly not backstop as a personal teet for the proven inept.
Delusional.
Posted by: ether at March 25, 2009 10:47 AM (D+Ibp)
177
"173
Let me see if I have this right.
Dems wrote the Porkulus Bill.
AIG bonuses werefirst omitted then rewritten backinto the Porkulusbillwritten by Dems.
Obama signed said Porkulus Bill, which contained the bonusesreinserted by Dems.
Dems and Obamaraise holy hellwhen AIG execs get bonuses. Fwank and
Cuomowant names and addresses of innocent execs who violated no law,
but instead were complying with it. ACORN organizes a
sightseeing/illegal harassment tour of execs homes with MSM in tow.
Soooo, is all this correct? If so, are the Dems certifiably insane?
Now can we have them removed from office?
Posted by: BackwardsBoy at March 25, 2009 10:45 AM (ZGhSv)"You know how your mom says that when you are in an airport or bus terminal or subway station, if you see someone making a scene that you should be very aware and make sure you know where all your stuff is cause chances are someone is making the scene to take the wallets and belongings of all those engrossed in watching and not watching out for themselves. Somehow, since, in the scheme of things this is small potatoes, I feel that we are mssing something else while the commotion about this is going on.
Let me see if I have this right.
Dems wrote the Porkulus Bill.
AIG bonuses werefirst omitted then rewritten backinto the Porkulusbillwritten by Dems.
Obama signed said Porkulus Bill, which contained the bonusesreinserted by Dems.
Dems and Obamaraise holy hellwhen AIG execs get bonuses. Fwank and
Cuomowant names and addresses of innocent execs who violated no law,
but instead were complying with it. ACORN organizes a
sightseeing/illegal harassment tour of execs homes with MSM in tow.
Soooo, is all this correct? If so, are the Dems certifiably insane?
Now can we have them removed from office?
Posted by: BackwardsBoy at March 25, 2009 10:45 AM (ZGhSv)"You know how your mom says that when you are in an airport or bus terminal or subway station, if you see someone making a scene that you should be very aware and make sure you know where all your stuff is cause chances are someone is making the scene to take the wallets and belongings of all those engrossed in watching and not watching out for themselves. Somehow, since, in the scheme of things this is small potatoes, I feel that we are mssing something else while the commotion about this is going on.
Posted by: muffy at March 25, 2009 10:48 AM (zplc6)
178
Backwards Boy @ 173
Yep, that's about the size of it. Add in the bit about all the AIG money that was campaign contributions to the relevant players in DC, Dodd, Obama, et al, and you pretty much have it summed up.
Oh and the ACORN protesters are set to receive, what, $4 Billion in the stimulus bill.
Yep, that's about the size of it. Add in the bit about all the AIG money that was campaign contributions to the relevant players in DC, Dodd, Obama, et al, and you pretty much have it summed up.
Oh and the ACORN protesters are set to receive, what, $4 Billion in the stimulus bill.
Posted by: sears poncho at March 25, 2009 10:48 AM (uj/0b)
179
But, this whole mess was manufactured by class warfare.
Look, rich people are part of the problem. Rather than tell the truth about markets and capitalism they end up trying to protect their wealth, support further regulation, and continue to man the controls of the visible hand that moves capital through social engineering. They're not all the same, but a good portion of them support the bankrupt ideas of social engineering in urban environments. They support the socialization of housing, education, medicine, and industry because they haven't got the courage to tell the truth that these models DO NOT WORK.
They fund the Democratic Party and they fund the Republican Party. It's not an even split. It's 65 cents to the Dems and 35 cents to the Repubs.
What they have been doing since 1910 is precisely what Teddy Roosevelt and the ragtag group of "radicals" were railing against. That "evil" was pumping power into the hands of the Federal Government to make it stronger on an international stage so as to protect their domestic investments and open international markets to grow them. Read "Tragedy Hope" by President Clinton's mentor Carol Quigley.
Did you see "The Aviator"? DiCaprio as Howard Hughes was pretty damn close to nailing the argument about established wealth versus the masses that are competing for it in the scene where Hughes visits Kat Hepburn's family compound in New England.
The way I think about is like this. If 10 percent of the people pay 90 percent of the taxes, our tax structure is so fucked. The inverse to this equation is 9 ACORN mother fuckers standing in front of 1 AIG homeowner. What do we tell the 9 ACORN mother fuckers? They're going to be on the hook for just as much of the 20,000 dollars in original sin debt as the 1 AIG fellow.
Look, rich people are part of the problem. Rather than tell the truth about markets and capitalism they end up trying to protect their wealth, support further regulation, and continue to man the controls of the visible hand that moves capital through social engineering. They're not all the same, but a good portion of them support the bankrupt ideas of social engineering in urban environments. They support the socialization of housing, education, medicine, and industry because they haven't got the courage to tell the truth that these models DO NOT WORK.
They fund the Democratic Party and they fund the Republican Party. It's not an even split. It's 65 cents to the Dems and 35 cents to the Repubs.
What they have been doing since 1910 is precisely what Teddy Roosevelt and the ragtag group of "radicals" were railing against. That "evil" was pumping power into the hands of the Federal Government to make it stronger on an international stage so as to protect their domestic investments and open international markets to grow them. Read "Tragedy Hope" by President Clinton's mentor Carol Quigley.
Did you see "The Aviator"? DiCaprio as Howard Hughes was pretty damn close to nailing the argument about established wealth versus the masses that are competing for it in the scene where Hughes visits Kat Hepburn's family compound in New England.
The way I think about is like this. If 10 percent of the people pay 90 percent of the taxes, our tax structure is so fucked. The inverse to this equation is 9 ACORN mother fuckers standing in front of 1 AIG homeowner. What do we tell the 9 ACORN mother fuckers? They're going to be on the hook for just as much of the 20,000 dollars in original sin debt as the 1 AIG fellow.
Posted by: WTF Capital Investments at March 25, 2009 10:48 AM (AHrTm)
180
In afree market, government would assign a conservator and liquidate,
not nationalize, and certainly not backstop as a personal teet for the
proven inept.
That's an entirely different argument.
In afree market, government would assign a conservator and liquidate,
not nationalize, and certainly not backstop as a personal teet for the
proven inept.
That's an entirely different argument.
Posted by: Tinian at March 25, 2009 10:49 AM (Ohodx)
181
flenser:
I don't disagree that Wall Street was an enthusiastic participant in the bubble. But the government prevented them from being punished in the way that the markets usually punish failure: financial ruin and collapse. So I think I'm on safe ground by putting the majority of the blame on the government: first for creating a political and trade climate that fostered this kind of reckless risk-taking, and then for preventing the market from punishing those who took the worst advantage.
That's why this manufactured "outrage" is so much feculent nonsense. This is a government-created and government-intensified problem. The markets would have punished the malefactors in an eminently suitable fashion by leaving them powerless and broke; instead, Uncle Sugar bailed them out and made sure they got their golden handshakes. You're pissed off at the wrong people.
There is also a delicious irony in the fact that these "corporate fat-cats" the Democrats are so fond of vilifying are, themselves, mostly Democrats in a heavily-Democratic state (New York). Madoff? A Jewish Democrat. His victims? Predominately Jewish Democrats. (In fact, I think Cuomo's rabble-rousing is going to come back to bite him in the ass when New York's tax receipts take a swan dive into the toilet when all the financial firms haul stakes for greener pastures.)
I don't disagree that Wall Street was an enthusiastic participant in the bubble. But the government prevented them from being punished in the way that the markets usually punish failure: financial ruin and collapse. So I think I'm on safe ground by putting the majority of the blame on the government: first for creating a political and trade climate that fostered this kind of reckless risk-taking, and then for preventing the market from punishing those who took the worst advantage.
That's why this manufactured "outrage" is so much feculent nonsense. This is a government-created and government-intensified problem. The markets would have punished the malefactors in an eminently suitable fashion by leaving them powerless and broke; instead, Uncle Sugar bailed them out and made sure they got their golden handshakes. You're pissed off at the wrong people.
There is also a delicious irony in the fact that these "corporate fat-cats" the Democrats are so fond of vilifying are, themselves, mostly Democrats in a heavily-Democratic state (New York). Madoff? A Jewish Democrat. His victims? Predominately Jewish Democrats. (In fact, I think Cuomo's rabble-rousing is going to come back to bite him in the ass when New York's tax receipts take a swan dive into the toilet when all the financial firms haul stakes for greener pastures.)
Posted by: Monty at March 25, 2009 10:49 AM (/0a60)
182
Not only should there not be bonuses, there shoudn't even be a fucking AIG.
Let them for their bonuses after liquidation.
With no taxpayer assurances.
It's time to count the peanuts in the shit-pile, get over it fuckin McMansion Conservatives.
Let them for their bonuses after liquidation.
With no taxpayer assurances.
It's time to count the peanuts in the shit-pile, get over it fuckin McMansion Conservatives.
Posted by: ether at March 25, 2009 10:51 AM (D+Ibp)
Posted by: sears poncho at March 25, 2009 10:51 AM (uj/0b)
184
Ether,
These are two separate issues. I agree with you about liquidation, absolutely. But this isn't about what happened with AIG, this is about how the government is treating individuals who had legal contracts.
Just because we don't like the government taking over a corporation doesn't mean I will support the government in shitting and abusing citizens who are employed by the corporation.
These are two separate issues. I agree with you about liquidation, absolutely. But this isn't about what happened with AIG, this is about how the government is treating individuals who had legal contracts.
Just because we don't like the government taking over a corporation doesn't mean I will support the government in shitting and abusing citizens who are employed by the corporation.
Posted by: Uniball at March 25, 2009 10:51 AM (27iEn)
185
CNBC reporting that the WSJ is saying that IBM is planning to lay off American service workers and their jobs will be taken over by workers in India.
Posted by: muffy at March 25, 2009 10:52 AM (zplc6)
186
That's an entirely different argument.
Posted by: Tinian at March 25, 2009 10:49 AM (Ohodx)
I agree.
The left can rage at the bonuses while the right defends contracts.
Meanwhile, the taxpayers are effectively insuring all failures.
It's the self-esteem generation all grown up.
Posted by: Tinian at March 25, 2009 10:49 AM (Ohodx)
I agree.
The left can rage at the bonuses while the right defends contracts.
Meanwhile, the taxpayers are effectively insuring all failures.
It's the self-esteem generation all grown up.
Posted by: ether at March 25, 2009 10:52 AM (D+Ibp)
187
This guy gave money to Dodd's campaign
Can you blame him? Senator Dodd is Chairman of the Banking Committee. Prior to that he was ranking member. The guy has incredible power through this position. He's man's representation of God to a figure like DeSantis as an AIG employee.
Can you blame him? Senator Dodd is Chairman of the Banking Committee. Prior to that he was ranking member. The guy has incredible power through this position. He's man's representation of God to a figure like DeSantis as an AIG employee.
Posted by: WTF Capital Investments at March 25, 2009 10:53 AM (AHrTm)
188
For those of you who say 'fuck this guy', you have bitten into exactly that sandwich TeH ONe and his crew have prepared for you.
Not at all. You're on the same side as Obama, as are Monty and others.
Obama and the Democrats wanted, and still want, these people to get their money. And by "these people" I mean much more than this particular individual. They are putting on this theater for the benifit of people like you, and the benifit of the idiot left.I can see why the idiot left would fall for it.
Not at all. You're on the same side as Obama, as are Monty and others.
Obama and the Democrats wanted, and still want, these people to get their money. And by "these people" I mean much more than this particular individual. They are putting on this theater for the benifit of people like you, and the benifit of the idiot left.I can see why the idiot left would fall for it.
Posted by: flenser at March 25, 2009 10:53 AM (AYOtW)
Posted by: Uniball at March 25, 2009 10:53 AM (27iEn)
190
Contracts in force Monty AND a law added after the fact requiring that they be paid by a principle architect of this mess, who lied about it, got busted, then blamed "treasury officials".
But no. The outrage is directed at the "fat cats who are set for life". Brilliant.
I've been paid retention bonuses too. So far I've managed to avoid having the power of the state brought to bear against me, including threats from officials who ostensibly are supposed to be upholding the law. The commenters who point out what this means to the validity of contracts are dead on right. This is no different than the state seizing property without due process, which has been replaced with a circus court of public opinion.
This is what I would call a "bad thing".
But no. The outrage is directed at the "fat cats who are set for life". Brilliant.
I've been paid retention bonuses too. So far I've managed to avoid having the power of the state brought to bear against me, including threats from officials who ostensibly are supposed to be upholding the law. The commenters who point out what this means to the validity of contracts are dead on right. This is no different than the state seizing property without due process, which has been replaced with a circus court of public opinion.
This is what I would call a "bad thing".
Posted by: Dave in Texas at March 25, 2009 10:54 AM (M15vt)
191
Posted by: Uniball at March 25, 2009 10:51 AM (27iEn)
Exactly. Massive distraction. Liquidation needs to occur and that is the only thing that should be being discussed. The delusional PPIP plan is yet another way to backstop failure, and ultimately will fuel the argument for nationalization after everything has gone to hell.
We need to liquidate and see what's left in the shitpile.
Let the market sort it out.
Exactly. Massive distraction. Liquidation needs to occur and that is the only thing that should be being discussed. The delusional PPIP plan is yet another way to backstop failure, and ultimately will fuel the argument for nationalization after everything has gone to hell.
We need to liquidate and see what's left in the shitpile.
Let the market sort it out.
Posted by: ether at March 25, 2009 10:54 AM (D+Ibp)
192
Ether -
Get a clue. This isn't about AIG and bonuses any more.
This is about the government writing a law to punish people who got contractually agreed to compensation.
What's next? Hagel deciding that A-Rod gets paid too much and setting aside his contract? I know a lot of Boston fans that would cheer that. Right up until he decided that he would go after Pedroia too so he could get around the whole "bills of attainder" problem.
Yes, if AIG had gone bankrupt, there'd be no bonuses or salaries to pay. But that's not the issue.
Get a clue. This isn't about AIG and bonuses any more.
This is about the government writing a law to punish people who got contractually agreed to compensation.
What's next? Hagel deciding that A-Rod gets paid too much and setting aside his contract? I know a lot of Boston fans that would cheer that. Right up until he decided that he would go after Pedroia too so he could get around the whole "bills of attainder" problem.
Yes, if AIG had gone bankrupt, there'd be no bonuses or salaries to pay. But that's not the issue.
Posted by: brian at March 25, 2009 10:54 AM (cPWTF)
193
flenser:
If you are 80% owned by the government, you are not a private company.
Actually, yes you are. The legal definition is not what you say it is, it's what the legal books say it is. A technicality it may be, but the law is technical. AIG is a private company unless and until the United States government formally nationalizes it, which they are unlikely to do for many different reasons.
(This is not to say, incidentally, that I agree with funding AIG with taxpayer money. I don't. But then again I never liked Fannie and Freddie either, and for exactly the same reason.)
If you are 80% owned by the government, you are not a private company.
Actually, yes you are. The legal definition is not what you say it is, it's what the legal books say it is. A technicality it may be, but the law is technical. AIG is a private company unless and until the United States government formally nationalizes it, which they are unlikely to do for many different reasons.
(This is not to say, incidentally, that I agree with funding AIG with taxpayer money. I don't. But then again I never liked Fannie and Freddie either, and for exactly the same reason.)
Posted by: Monty at March 25, 2009 10:55 AM (/0a60)
194
Were are the Jews in all of this?
Last I checked, 8o% of them were voting for Obama. But don't let reality intrude on your cosy fantasy world.
Last I checked, 8o% of them were voting for Obama. But don't let reality intrude on your cosy fantasy world.
Posted by: flenser at March 25, 2009 10:56 AM (AYOtW)
195
if the US is the purchaser and owner of AIG (not quite true but let's go with it), it owns the contracts of the workers as well. if you buy something, you typically own boths its assets and liabilities. so, the fact of ownership doesn't change anything about the contracts. if someone becomes a majority shareholder in a company, they don't suddenly have carte blanche to wipe out those contracts.
Posted by: ed at March 25, 2009 10:56 AM (Urhve)
196
Speaking of the two F's did I read something about them giving out bonuses? And what about GS and Citi et al. David Faber said this morning that some guy wanted to leave Citi and that he told David that they offered him 2.5 mil to stay. Faber said this this morning, happening now, in real time. Sow what else is going on that you aren't seeing while you are watchign the stage show of AIG?
Posted by: muffy at March 25, 2009 10:57 AM (zplc6)
197
"Last I checked, 8o% of them were voting for Obama. But don't let reality intrude on your cosy fantasy world."
I knew there was something fishy about your angle.
I knew there was something fishy about your angle.
Posted by: Uniball at March 25, 2009 10:58 AM (27iEn)
198
It's time to count the peanuts in the shit-pile, get over it fuckin McMansion Conservatives.
Hey, Islamic rage boy-
Trying learning what the hell is actually going on.
Chairman Ed Liddy, brought in to restructure AIG following the US government’s initial $85bn bail-out last September, intends to break it up in such a way that it will be unrecognisable when compared to the complex web of insurance and financial product businesses that it consists of today.
His actions are intended to create enough capital to pay the US government the $173bn it now owes as a result of a number of further bail-outs, something he still thinks will be possible in spite of the dislocation in the credit markets.
Much like the bogus "bonus" term, what we have done is loan AIG money to allow them to unwind their positions and pay us back. Get that? Pay us back?
Some of us support this because lending some money now is infinitely better than allowing a company that touches all aspects of the financial industry, from insurance to baking to investments on a worldwide basis to crash. Will it work? Well not if we keep shitting on the people who we hired to do the job for us and allow the dunces in DC to turn them into pariahs.
Save your rage and insults at conservatives. Learn what the hell you are talking about.
Hey, Islamic rage boy-
Trying learning what the hell is actually going on.
Chairman Ed Liddy, brought in to restructure AIG following the US government’s initial $85bn bail-out last September, intends to break it up in such a way that it will be unrecognisable when compared to the complex web of insurance and financial product businesses that it consists of today.
His actions are intended to create enough capital to pay the US government the $173bn it now owes as a result of a number of further bail-outs, something he still thinks will be possible in spite of the dislocation in the credit markets.
Much like the bogus "bonus" term, what we have done is loan AIG money to allow them to unwind their positions and pay us back. Get that? Pay us back?
Some of us support this because lending some money now is infinitely better than allowing a company that touches all aspects of the financial industry, from insurance to baking to investments on a worldwide basis to crash. Will it work? Well not if we keep shitting on the people who we hired to do the job for us and allow the dunces in DC to turn them into pariahs.
Save your rage and insults at conservatives. Learn what the hell you are talking about.
Posted by: JackStraw at March 25, 2009 10:58 AM (VW9/y)
199
Yes, if AIG had gone bankrupt, there'd be no bonuses or salaries to pay. But that's not the issue.
Posted by: brian at March 25, 2009 10:54 AM (cPWTF)
And that's the point i'm making.
Conservatives should be in a rage that the taxpayer has guaranteed these losses. We shouldn't be having a discussion about bonuses at all.
Give them $100 Trillion bonuses, but if it drives your company bankrupt then we need have the balls to liquidate and retain some free market principles.
I agree destorying the very concept of a "contract" is what's on the table here, but all of the arguments for capping bonuses rest on the assumption that taxpayers will be subsidizing these bonuses.
Posted by: brian at March 25, 2009 10:54 AM (cPWTF)
And that's the point i'm making.
Conservatives should be in a rage that the taxpayer has guaranteed these losses. We shouldn't be having a discussion about bonuses at all.
Give them $100 Trillion bonuses, but if it drives your company bankrupt then we need have the balls to liquidate and retain some free market principles.
I agree destorying the very concept of a "contract" is what's on the table here, but all of the arguments for capping bonuses rest on the assumption that taxpayers will be subsidizing these bonuses.
Posted by: ether at March 25, 2009 10:59 AM (D+Ibp)
200
so, the fact of ownership doesn't change anything about the contracts.
if someone becomes a majority shareholder in a company, they don't
suddenly have carte blanche to wipe out those contracts.
Certainly not. And they can't change the contracts AFTER they have been notified, cleared them, AND changed the law to account for that.
if someone becomes a majority shareholder in a company, they don't
suddenly have carte blanche to wipe out those contracts.
Certainly not. And they can't change the contracts AFTER they have been notified, cleared them, AND changed the law to account for that.
Posted by: WTF Capital Investments at March 25, 2009 10:59 AM (AHrTm)
201
I see once again we have become sidetracked here and even in some cases to supporting the communist party talking points. Yes, it was deregulation and greed that caused this mess and we should punish and jail the evil rich CEOs. Bush did it!
I repeat a shortened form of my long post from last week:
CRA created the vehicle to force loans to deadbeats – done by the Dems
Friends of Bill running FF purchased the bad loans created the loan mixture papers to hide the bad assets among good. This is probably the closest thing to fraud in the whole scheme but good luck on getting any of these prosecuted.
FF farmed this bad paper out all over the world.
All AIG did was insure a lot of the loans. That is what the credit default swaps were.
I repeat a shortened form of my long post from last week:
CRA created the vehicle to force loans to deadbeats – done by the Dems
Friends of Bill running FF purchased the bad loans created the loan mixture papers to hide the bad assets among good. This is probably the closest thing to fraud in the whole scheme but good luck on getting any of these prosecuted.
FF farmed this bad paper out all over the world.
All AIG did was insure a lot of the loans. That is what the credit default swaps were.
Posted by: Vic at March 25, 2009 11:00 AM (f6os6)
202
Alright Jackstraw, you're about to get schooled.
You really want to call govt. assurances of this crap a loan? Please. CMBS and RMBS are trading at 30-40% of their value. Unless your willing to buy Obama's argument that these are "legacy assets" you're being completely delusional.
And no, i'm not in the group that believes that deflation can be stopped.
It's time to count the peanuts in the shitpile.
Time to see who believes in free markets.
You really want to call govt. assurances of this crap a loan? Please. CMBS and RMBS are trading at 30-40% of their value. Unless your willing to buy Obama's argument that these are "legacy assets" you're being completely delusional.
And no, i'm not in the group that believes that deflation can be stopped.
It's time to count the peanuts in the shitpile.
Time to see who believes in free markets.
Posted by: ether at March 25, 2009 11:02 AM (D+Ibp)
203
202 Vic: Can we prove it?
Posted by: WTF Capital Investments at March 25, 2009 11:02 AM (AHrTm)
204
I didn't know about the bus tours. That's freaking pathetic. I can't believe people would waste their time organizing that bullshit and then people riding the bus have nothing better to do than sit on a bus and look at people's houses and complain. What a bunch of pathetic losers.
Posted by: Adrienne at March 25, 2009 11:03 AM (/Puyh)
205
I knew there was something fishy about your angle.
You don't know enough to come inside when it's raining. Diderots dog is a rocket scientist compared to you.
You don't know enough to come inside when it's raining. Diderots dog is a rocket scientist compared to you.
Posted by: flenser at March 25, 2009 11:03 AM (AYOtW)
206
Hey, RRowdy, Washington's Dems of the DSCC aren't giving back the $100,000 Bernie gave them. Isn't that a surprise. Will your former employers report on this, as well? (I'm assuming you didn't work for the Washington Times, of course.)
Posted by: andycanuck at March 25, 2009 11:04 AM (nAPly)
207
@ 166 flenser
If you are 80% owned by the government, you are not a private company. If you depend on the state to meet your bills, you are not a private company.
The taxpayers are now stockholders in AIG. Stockholders do not get to decide how the company does business. Executives and Boards of Directors do.
Our representatives in Congress agreed to invest our dollars and did so knowing about these retention bonuses.
At this point breaking those contracts, as others have already stated, will undermine the foundation of rule of law and property rights.
If you are 80% owned by the government, you are not a private company. If you depend on the state to meet your bills, you are not a private company.
The taxpayers are now stockholders in AIG. Stockholders do not get to decide how the company does business. Executives and Boards of Directors do.
Our representatives in Congress agreed to invest our dollars and did so knowing about these retention bonuses.
At this point breaking those contracts, as others have already stated, will undermine the foundation of rule of law and property rights.
Posted by: Mikki at March 25, 2009 11:05 AM (Zq+Z8)
208
A bonus is something you may or may not get depending on the company's financial wellbeing.
A non-contractual bonus is a gift, like a Christmas bonus that some
employers give out of a sense of gratitude to their employees.
A contractual bonus is compensation that is paid based on the occurrence of some condition that may - or may not - be related to a company's financial well-being. The recipient of the bonus, the obligee, is owed his bonus once the triggering condition has been satisfied. The fact that a bonus is owed under contract, though, does not negate the nature of the bonus at the contract's inception: At that time the obligor's duty to pay the bonus was uncertain.
In the case of AIG, to receive their bonuses, employees had to remain employed with the Financial Products division until its affairs were wound up. This was incentive to stay on board a sinking ship, and leaving even three days early would remove an employee from entitlement to her bonus. The people who stayed deserve to be paid according to their contracts.
Being a leader can be lucrative. The world is full of sheep. The world is full of indecisive, fearful people. Boldness, courage, innovation, and charisma are rare and valued traits. Businesses want and compete for management with these traits. How do businesses acquire the innovative leaders? They give their prospects what the prospects want, and if it's money, the prospects' salaries can be enviable.
One misconception of people like RRowdy is that leadership traits are common and fungible. Brilliance, innovative thinking, charisma - these are traits some people are born with, like height or skin color or a hairlip. Most people who demonstrate these traits, though, worked hard to develop them. When viewed in light of employment compensation, they made good decisions. Developing these traits, though was their choice, and enviable compensation is their reward.
RRowdy seems to think, too, that there should be an element of fairness involved in our society. Fair is not an element of life. In pre-historic times, some people got to sleep in the cave while others had to sleep in the woods. Some people were food for predators, others weren't. Life was hard. Life IS hard, and sometimes you draw a short straw. It doesn't matter how the playing field is redrawn, the same premise re-establishes itself in every new game.
Accept it. Accept it all. Quit trying to make other people responsible for your happiness. Life is a much better place when you quit feeling cheated all the time. Earn your life, realize that you're going to get screwed on occasion, and keep working to make it better. Quit focusing on the reward and enjoy the happiness that comes from the work.
A non-contractual bonus is a gift, like a Christmas bonus that some
employers give out of a sense of gratitude to their employees.
A contractual bonus is compensation that is paid based on the occurrence of some condition that may - or may not - be related to a company's financial well-being. The recipient of the bonus, the obligee, is owed his bonus once the triggering condition has been satisfied. The fact that a bonus is owed under contract, though, does not negate the nature of the bonus at the contract's inception: At that time the obligor's duty to pay the bonus was uncertain.
In the case of AIG, to receive their bonuses, employees had to remain employed with the Financial Products division until its affairs were wound up. This was incentive to stay on board a sinking ship, and leaving even three days early would remove an employee from entitlement to her bonus. The people who stayed deserve to be paid according to their contracts.
Being a leader can be lucrative. The world is full of sheep. The world is full of indecisive, fearful people. Boldness, courage, innovation, and charisma are rare and valued traits. Businesses want and compete for management with these traits. How do businesses acquire the innovative leaders? They give their prospects what the prospects want, and if it's money, the prospects' salaries can be enviable.
One misconception of people like RRowdy is that leadership traits are common and fungible. Brilliance, innovative thinking, charisma - these are traits some people are born with, like height or skin color or a hairlip. Most people who demonstrate these traits, though, worked hard to develop them. When viewed in light of employment compensation, they made good decisions. Developing these traits, though was their choice, and enviable compensation is their reward.
RRowdy seems to think, too, that there should be an element of fairness involved in our society. Fair is not an element of life. In pre-historic times, some people got to sleep in the cave while others had to sleep in the woods. Some people were food for predators, others weren't. Life was hard. Life IS hard, and sometimes you draw a short straw. It doesn't matter how the playing field is redrawn, the same premise re-establishes itself in every new game.
Accept it. Accept it all. Quit trying to make other people responsible for your happiness. Life is a much better place when you quit feeling cheated all the time. Earn your life, realize that you're going to get screwed on occasion, and keep working to make it better. Quit focusing on the reward and enjoy the happiness that comes from the work.
Posted by: Jazz at March 25, 2009 11:05 AM (hnq5i)
209
I am trying to think what it is like for someone who worked for AIG, was very good at bringing legitimate profits to the company, who had nothing to do with the derivatives, and when the trouble came agreed to stay WITHOUT PAY with an agreement to give him a retention bonus if he stayed for a certain length of time, only to find that the government wants to take his legal, earned money.
Not only that, but buses of thugs are roaming by his house, he's had to hire security guards, he's probably had to get an unlisted phone number, his wife and kids are afraid to leave the home, and on top of that the attorney general of New York and various scum bag members of Congress are shredding his reputation and hollering threats and suggesting suicide as an honorable alternative.
Honestly, I think his letter was very restrained.
Envy is one of the Seven Deadly Sins. Look it up...it's there in the Ten Commandments. Obama is fanning the flames of envy in this nation, and those who don't resist it are at least foolish, if not worse.
Here's a clue for all of you who have fallen in the trap: if this guy has everything taken away tomorrow, YOU AREN'T GOING TO GET A PENNY OF IT. Your house won't grow bigger, your spouse won't become more attractive, your bank account won't runneth over.
And pretty soon we will move on to another enemy, another round of this hatred, another victim of Obama's need to constantly direct you away from his total Marxist outlook and hatred of this nation.
Not only that, but buses of thugs are roaming by his house, he's had to hire security guards, he's probably had to get an unlisted phone number, his wife and kids are afraid to leave the home, and on top of that the attorney general of New York and various scum bag members of Congress are shredding his reputation and hollering threats and suggesting suicide as an honorable alternative.
Honestly, I think his letter was very restrained.
Envy is one of the Seven Deadly Sins. Look it up...it's there in the Ten Commandments. Obama is fanning the flames of envy in this nation, and those who don't resist it are at least foolish, if not worse.
Here's a clue for all of you who have fallen in the trap: if this guy has everything taken away tomorrow, YOU AREN'T GOING TO GET A PENNY OF IT. Your house won't grow bigger, your spouse won't become more attractive, your bank account won't runneth over.
And pretty soon we will move on to another enemy, another round of this hatred, another victim of Obama's need to constantly direct you away from his total Marxist outlook and hatred of this nation.
Posted by: Miss Marple at March 25, 2009 11:06 AM (A9BhC)
210
A friend of mine described the CDO's or CDS's or whatever they call them as sort of a financial micro laminated beam. They make the beams very long and they are composed of layer upon lauyer with glue in between which is apparently what makes them strong. So then they slice up the beams and each beam contains a little piece of every other beam and you would have to call all the beams back from the homes they were put into to reconstruct the initial micro laminated beam and make all the layers whole again. He said basically, this is Neal Kashkari's job.
Posted by: muffy at March 25, 2009 11:06 AM (zplc6)
211
Can we provewhat? FF created the paper?
That has been written up in numerous reports on this so I assume there is ample evidence.
I guess the idea of whether it was fraud or stupidity is the question.
That has been written up in numerous reports on this so I assume there is ample evidence.
I guess the idea of whether it was fraud or stupidity is the question.
Posted by: Vic at March 25, 2009 11:07 AM (f6os6)
212
Flenser, I can assure you that most of us here are not on the same side as That Guy In The WH®. While I would question your theory that TeH ONe et al still want AIG folks to get their money, I would agree with your notion that the theatre is manufactured;if you're actually reading the comments here and in other threads, you should observe that we do recognize this manufacture. The diologue at this point boils down to, at least for some of us, is whether laws have been broken; i.e. DeSantis and AIG others (not responsible for the company's failure, btw) should be paid their retention monies that were agreed to by contract. When contracts are no longer honored, other laws will by extension will no longer be honored; it will be every man for himself, literally, at that point.
Posted by: Cyn at March 25, 2009 11:07 AM (kbu8g)
213
Why don't we just put a salary cap on everyone?
And then hand out uniforms?
And then make everyone watch "Our leader" at the same time every day?
My life would be so much easier if I had a simple schedule that I followed everyday and all I had to do was get up in themorning and follow it. Like the "United Stepfords of America".
It would be less interesting, but being interested is politically incorrect. I hate my brain, it makes me think too much.
And then hand out uniforms?
And then make everyone watch "Our leader" at the same time every day?
My life would be so much easier if I had a simple schedule that I followed everyday and all I had to do was get up in themorning and follow it. Like the "United Stepfords of America".
It would be less interesting, but being interested is politically incorrect. I hate my brain, it makes me think too much.
Posted by: tcbevo at March 25, 2009 11:07 AM (z4daD)
214
1. Respect contracts.
2. Do not reward failure. We should have replaced all the employees with a new team from a bankruptcy specialist - pay them millions - transition of 6 months for the old staff. If you can't teach someone your job in six months, maybe you should not have had it.
3. NEVER EVER AGAIN ALLOW "TOO BIG TO FAIL."
2. Do not reward failure. We should have replaced all the employees with a new team from a bankruptcy specialist - pay them millions - transition of 6 months for the old staff. If you can't teach someone your job in six months, maybe you should not have had it.
3. NEVER EVER AGAIN ALLOW "TOO BIG TO FAIL."
Posted by: Harun at March 25, 2009 11:08 AM (vZJNO)
215
Too Big to Fail?
Or too corrupt?
http://tinyurl.com/dasqav
"Citi is clearly the most interested party in this whole thing, with a whopping 44% of its total assets tied up in legacy assets. As Citi is valuing these things at such a ridiculously high level, Citi stockholders are going to be closely watching the PPIP proceedings and how the players approach their bidding strategy. The benefit of the PPIP-leverage is it is likely to boost valuations higher than they would be without the PPIP leverage/backstops - it remains to be seen if that benefit will be substantial enough to stem the bloodloss at Citi."
http://tinyurl.com/d9yckv
"Both Citi and BofA each have received $45 billion in federal rescue cash meant to help prop up the economy and jumpstart the housing market.
But the banks' purchase of so-called AAA-rated mortgage-backed securities, including some that use alt-A and option ARM as collateral, is raising eyebrows among even the most seasoned traders. Alt-A and option ARM loans have widely been seen as the next mortgage type to see increases in defaults."
As long as we get tied up in BS liek defending contracts for companies that shou8d alreadybe gone, we're going to miss the larger issue... The slow death of the taxpayer.
Also this is the crappiest comment system ever.
Or too corrupt?
http://tinyurl.com/dasqav
"Citi is clearly the most interested party in this whole thing, with a whopping 44% of its total assets tied up in legacy assets. As Citi is valuing these things at such a ridiculously high level, Citi stockholders are going to be closely watching the PPIP proceedings and how the players approach their bidding strategy. The benefit of the PPIP-leverage is it is likely to boost valuations higher than they would be without the PPIP leverage/backstops - it remains to be seen if that benefit will be substantial enough to stem the bloodloss at Citi."
http://tinyurl.com/d9yckv
"Both Citi and BofA each have received $45 billion in federal rescue cash meant to help prop up the economy and jumpstart the housing market.
But the banks' purchase of so-called AAA-rated mortgage-backed securities, including some that use alt-A and option ARM as collateral, is raising eyebrows among even the most seasoned traders. Alt-A and option ARM loans have widely been seen as the next mortgage type to see increases in defaults."
As long as we get tied up in BS liek defending contracts for companies that shou8d alreadybe gone, we're going to miss the larger issue... The slow death of the taxpayer.
Also this is the crappiest comment system ever.
Posted by: ether at March 25, 2009 11:10 AM (D+Ibp)
216
“You cannot legislate the poor into freedom by
legislating the wealthy out of freedom. What one person receives without
working for, another person must work for without receiving. The government
cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from
somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to
work because the other half is going to take care of them, and when the other
half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going
to get what they work for, that my dear friend, is about the end of any nation.
You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it.”
legislating the wealthy out of freedom. What one person receives without
working for, another person must work for without receiving. The government
cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from
somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to
work because the other half is going to take care of them, and when the other
half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going
to get what they work for, that my dear friend, is about the end of any nation.
You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it.”
Posted by: Mark at March 25, 2009 11:10 AM (yPPVC)
217
I think that we have bailed out ACORN one time too many. I want to take the bonuses of their top leaders.
I think it we have bailed out the unions one time too many. I want to take their bonuses.
I think we have bailed out the educational system one time too many. I want to take the summer vacation of all teachers.
I think that we have bailed out the lazy in this country one time too many. I want to take their big screens and game systems.
Most Rats would have a problem with these statements, yet don't have a problem with this one:
We told people to do a great job for $1 a year, plus bonuses. They did what they were asked to do.Unfortunately, in this country, only those not doing their job will receive bonuses.
I think it we have bailed out the unions one time too many. I want to take their bonuses.
I think we have bailed out the educational system one time too many. I want to take the summer vacation of all teachers.
I think that we have bailed out the lazy in this country one time too many. I want to take their big screens and game systems.
Most Rats would have a problem with these statements, yet don't have a problem with this one:
We told people to do a great job for $1 a year, plus bonuses. They did what they were asked to do.Unfortunately, in this country, only those not doing their job will receive bonuses.
Posted by: outraged at March 25, 2009 11:10 AM (penCf)
218
He should have taken the bonus money, and moved himself and his family to Singapore.
Make a ton of money there, and ask a future Republican Prez to pardon him of the inevitable "crime" the Obambi administration will pin him with for not staying to be victimized.
Make a ton of money there, and ask a future Republican Prez to pardon him of the inevitable "crime" the Obambi administration will pin him with for not staying to be victimized.
Posted by: Kristopher at March 25, 2009 11:11 AM (EqbaN)
219
Stockholders do not get to decide how the company does business. Executives and Boards of Directors do.
Stockholders decide who the "executives and Boards of Directors" are, you wanna-be capitalist. You think if Buffet had bought 80% of AIG, he'd just say, "take my money and do your own thing guys"?
Stockholders decide who the "executives and Boards of Directors" are, you wanna-be capitalist. You think if Buffet had bought 80% of AIG, he'd just say, "take my money and do your own thing guys"?
Posted by: flenser at March 25, 2009 11:11 AM (AYOtW)
220
O/T (somewhat) but could anyone be so kind as to give me a list of Obama administration personnel who may have recieved bonuses from AIG and/or campaign contributions? Oh hell, just give me some quick facts concerning the bonuses, the bailout, and people in this administration who had their hand in it -- please put in handy format and perhaps give me a few sources for same.
I'm in a running letter battle with some libero-fascists on my town newpaper website, and one of the little bastards wants me to name names (and is implying that I'm a loony wingnut for daring to say this administration isn't so innocent in this affair). I refuse to back down, but I really don't have time to research this myself right now.
Many thanks in advance.
I'm in a running letter battle with some libero-fascists on my town newpaper website, and one of the little bastards wants me to name names (and is implying that I'm a loony wingnut for daring to say this administration isn't so innocent in this affair). I refuse to back down, but I really don't have time to research this myself right now.
Many thanks in advance.
Posted by: unknown jane at March 25, 2009 11:12 AM (EpmMs)
Posted by: Uniball at March 25, 2009 11:13 AM (27iEn)
222
Hey, to the commenters who decided "fuck him".
Could we maybe next time decide to fire all the employees of a company BEFORE we pay $170 billion dollars buying it?
I mean, yes it's amusing to spend billions buying a big building just to set it on fire and watch it burn; but it may not be the best use of taxpayer funds.
If you wanted the people at AIG to stay, keep the company afloat, and maybe get it worth enough to recoup the investment; then robbing them, screwing them over, and scapegoating them at every turn probably isn't going to give you that result.
But hey, fuck 'em. Oh, and the $170 billion we bought their company with? Fuck that too. I'm envoius of those bastard who made all that money, so I'm willing to lose $170,000 million in taxpayer money to make them give back their $160 million in bonuses.
Who is with me? For every $1,000 we burn needlessly, we'l take $1 away from a RICH PERSON... woohoo.
Could we maybe next time decide to fire all the employees of a company BEFORE we pay $170 billion dollars buying it?
I mean, yes it's amusing to spend billions buying a big building just to set it on fire and watch it burn; but it may not be the best use of taxpayer funds.
If you wanted the people at AIG to stay, keep the company afloat, and maybe get it worth enough to recoup the investment; then robbing them, screwing them over, and scapegoating them at every turn probably isn't going to give you that result.
But hey, fuck 'em. Oh, and the $170 billion we bought their company with? Fuck that too. I'm envoius of those bastard who made all that money, so I'm willing to lose $170,000 million in taxpayer money to make them give back their $160 million in bonuses.
Who is with me? For every $1,000 we burn needlessly, we'l take $1 away from a RICH PERSON... woohoo.
Posted by: Gekkobear at March 25, 2009 11:13 AM (X0NX1)
223
Why don't we just put a salary cap on everyone?
They have effectively already done that in 1993. Tax law now says that if a company pays any officer in excess of 1 million per year it is not considered a business expense and can not be subtracted from gross income to determine taxable profit.
That is what got all these "bonuses" started to begin with.
If I was on the court that would have been struck down the day after it was issued.
They have effectively already done that in 1993. Tax law now says that if a company pays any officer in excess of 1 million per year it is not considered a business expense and can not be subtracted from gross income to determine taxable profit.
That is what got all these "bonuses" started to begin with.
If I was on the court that would have been struck down the day after it was issued.
Posted by: Vic at March 25, 2009 11:14 AM (f6os6)
224
"One misconception of people like RRowdy is that leadership traits are common and fungible. Brilliance, innovative thinking, charisma - these are traits some people are born with, like height or skin color or a hairlip. Most people who demonstrate these traits, though, worked hard to develop them. When viewed in light of employment compensation, they made good decisions. Developing these traits, though was their choice, and enviable compensation is their reward."
Yes, sure. This is why whenever America gets into a real war, we end up dropping peacetime general after general, until finally some drunk colonel like Grant, or some sober mofo like Petraeus comes up.
Hey, my company's sales are crap now. If the Fed gives me money, I promise to keep it on life support somehow for a dollar a year. and a million dollar bonus LOL.
What do you do when your mechanic screws up the repair? Sometimes you give him a second chance to fix it FOR FREE but sometimes you take your car elsewhere.
Seriously, even if these guys are pure as the driven snow, we should have replaced them - let them work at other companies which are eager to hire them - hire an outside team to clean up.
Yes, sure. This is why whenever America gets into a real war, we end up dropping peacetime general after general, until finally some drunk colonel like Grant, or some sober mofo like Petraeus comes up.
Hey, my company's sales are crap now. If the Fed gives me money, I promise to keep it on life support somehow for a dollar a year. and a million dollar bonus LOL.
What do you do when your mechanic screws up the repair? Sometimes you give him a second chance to fix it FOR FREE but sometimes you take your car elsewhere.
Seriously, even if these guys are pure as the driven snow, we should have replaced them - let them work at other companies which are eager to hire them - hire an outside team to clean up.
Posted by: Harun at March 25, 2009 11:14 AM (vZJNO)
225
You really want to call govt. assurances of this crap a loan? Please. CMBS and RMBS are trading at 30-40% of their value. Unless your willing to buy Obama's argument that these are "legacy assets" you're being completely delusional.
Gee. No shit. Do you suppose that there is anyone at Treasury either under Bush or even Obama who is not aware of that the derivative products are underwater? That's sort of the key problem here.
More fundamentally, what does this have to do with anything?We aren't guaranteeing the price of anything which if you is the whole point of the plan Geitner announced yesterday. Make a market for the products that not only aren't trading right now, nobody can agree on an actual price for them.
Liddy was brought in to break up AIG into the sound and unsound pieces, sell off the sound pieces and unwind the colloateralized obligations and pay the US gov't back with the proceeds. It is an extremely complex task, one that requires people with significant background in trading financial products and people who know that in the end they will not have a job.
On the one hand, we invest a couple hundred billion dollars and hope to get some or all of it back. On the other, we allow AIG to implode and take done the financial system and the economy, cost incalculable.
Thanks for the schooling.
Gee. No shit. Do you suppose that there is anyone at Treasury either under Bush or even Obama who is not aware of that the derivative products are underwater? That's sort of the key problem here.
More fundamentally, what does this have to do with anything?We aren't guaranteeing the price of anything which if you is the whole point of the plan Geitner announced yesterday. Make a market for the products that not only aren't trading right now, nobody can agree on an actual price for them.
Liddy was brought in to break up AIG into the sound and unsound pieces, sell off the sound pieces and unwind the colloateralized obligations and pay the US gov't back with the proceeds. It is an extremely complex task, one that requires people with significant background in trading financial products and people who know that in the end they will not have a job.
On the one hand, we invest a couple hundred billion dollars and hope to get some or all of it back. On the other, we allow AIG to implode and take done the financial system and the economy, cost incalculable.
Thanks for the schooling.
Posted by: JackStraw at March 25, 2009 11:15 AM (VW9/y)
226
3. NEVER EVER AGAIN ALLOW "TOO BIG TO FAIL."
Posted by: Harun at March 25, 2009 11:08 AM (vZJNO)
There's no such thing so there's nothing to prevent.
3. NEVER EVER AGAIN ALLOW "TOO BIG TO FAIL."
Posted by: Harun at March 25, 2009 11:08 AM (vZJNO)
There's no such thing so there's nothing to prevent.
Posted by: Tinian at March 25, 2009 11:15 AM (Ohodx)
227
"221
O/T (somewhat) but could anyone be so kind as to give me a list of
Obama administration personnel who may have recieved bonuses from AIG
and/or campaign contributions? Oh hell, just give me some quick facts
concerning the bonuses, the bailout, and people in this administration
who had their hand in it -- please put in handy format and perhaps give
me a few sources for same.
I'm in a running letter battle with some libero-fascists on my town
newpaper website, and one of the little bastards wants me to name names
(and is implying that I'm a loony wingnut for daring to say this
administration isn't so innocent in this affair). I refuse to back
down, but I really don't have time to research this myself right now.
Many thanks in advance.
Posted by: unknown jane at March 25, 2009 11:12 AM (EpmMs)"The information is all over this site, all over the dealbreaker site, on drudge, townhall, Michelle Malkin, however, before I would "name names" in print I might seek the advice of an attorney as it looks as though you are running right into a nice trap. Good luck.
O/T (somewhat) but could anyone be so kind as to give me a list of
Obama administration personnel who may have recieved bonuses from AIG
and/or campaign contributions? Oh hell, just give me some quick facts
concerning the bonuses, the bailout, and people in this administration
who had their hand in it -- please put in handy format and perhaps give
me a few sources for same.
I'm in a running letter battle with some libero-fascists on my town
newpaper website, and one of the little bastards wants me to name names
(and is implying that I'm a loony wingnut for daring to say this
administration isn't so innocent in this affair). I refuse to back
down, but I really don't have time to research this myself right now.
Many thanks in advance.
Posted by: unknown jane at March 25, 2009 11:12 AM (EpmMs)"The information is all over this site, all over the dealbreaker site, on drudge, townhall, Michelle Malkin, however, before I would "name names" in print I might seek the advice of an attorney as it looks as though you are running right into a nice trap. Good luck.
Posted by: muffy at March 25, 2009 11:16 AM (zplc6)
228
BTW, someone above said that this "clawback" was sttopped in the Senate. That is not correct. It was stopped from being fast-tracked by Reid. He still intends to bring it to the floor before the end of next week.
Posted by: Vic at March 25, 2009 11:16 AM (f6os6)
229
When I said "Fuck him," It was for precisely this point...
His company shouldn't exist to pay the bonus.
AIG should STILL be liquidated.
His company shouldn't exist to pay the bonus.
AIG should STILL be liquidated.
Posted by: ether at March 25, 2009 11:16 AM (D+Ibp)
230
Laura,
An even bigger fucking travesty is the fact that the Democrats started this economic train wreck back in 2004 with Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae, and compounded this disaster by using our taxes to bail out their own fucking mistakes. If the SHAREHOLDERS foot the bill for an outrageousbonus to a CEO responsible for running a corporation into the ground, that's bad enough, but it's on them. On the other hand, a business that fails through mismanagement or government interference,shouldn't be rewarded, especially with OUR money.
An even bigger fucking travesty is the fact that the Democrats started this economic train wreck back in 2004 with Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae, and compounded this disaster by using our taxes to bail out their own fucking mistakes. If the SHAREHOLDERS foot the bill for an outrageousbonus to a CEO responsible for running a corporation into the ground, that's bad enough, but it's on them. On the other hand, a business that fails through mismanagement or government interference,shouldn't be rewarded, especially with OUR money.
Posted by: sfcmac at March 25, 2009 11:16 AM (kNmyI)
231
Oh, and my argument still says...
1. Respect the contracts...don't mean I have to be happy about it.
1. Respect the contracts...don't mean I have to be happy about it.
Posted by: Harun at March 25, 2009 11:17 AM (vZJNO)
232
What part of the words you quoted led you to that conclusion? The words you quoted made no reference to "this guy"
Ya, gee I guess you are right...I am wrong because you did not say those exact words in that quote. Even though that has been your whole thesis in this thread.
Hey, your fly is down...
Ya, gee I guess you are right...I am wrong because you did not say those exact words in that quote. Even though that has been your whole thesis in this thread.
Hey, your fly is down...
Posted by: Punch a Hippie at March 25, 2009 11:19 AM (LSydU)
233
ask a future Republican Prez to pardon him
But I thought O was so great, that we they elected him Pres. for life!
/off
Funny how even Clinton was still our Pres., but O is their Pres. I will not have my name associated with his election to office.
But I thought O was so great, that we they elected him Pres. for life!
/off
Funny how even Clinton was still our Pres., but O is their Pres. I will not have my name associated with his election to office.
Posted by: outraged at March 25, 2009 11:19 AM (penCf)
234
Vic: Can we prove that CRA, the Dems, FF are responsible for all this?
I ask because if we can prove that then we're going to have to consider the other side. CRA and FF aren't just some random government concept to redirect capital. They are retalitory regulations attempting to correct bad regulations of the past. Regulations that WERE RACIST.
If you're starting from the same point I am -- Government is inherently stupid, wrong, and therefore should have both hands tied behind its back by the people that elect its representatives -- you are going to have to consider what regulations were in place prior to CRA that built the political structure to enact CRA.
I ask because if we can prove that then we're going to have to consider the other side. CRA and FF aren't just some random government concept to redirect capital. They are retalitory regulations attempting to correct bad regulations of the past. Regulations that WERE RACIST.
If you're starting from the same point I am -- Government is inherently stupid, wrong, and therefore should have both hands tied behind its back by the people that elect its representatives -- you are going to have to consider what regulations were in place prior to CRA that built the political structure to enact CRA.
Posted by: WTF Capital Investments at March 25, 2009 11:22 AM (AHrTm)
235
"Liddy was brought in to break up AIG into the sound and unsound pieces, sell off the sound pieces and unwind the colloateralized obligations and pay the US gov't back with the proceeds. It is an extremely complex task, one that requires people with significant background in trading financial products and people who know that in the end they will not have a job."
Fine. Give me a deadline and a cost. Anything below that is a performance bonus for them.
And no one has a problem with Liddy. Hell, I don't doubt that some of these guys were clean, but they needed to be completely replaced.
Its not as if there are no people with these skills in the NYC except those who worked there previously.
Seriously, can we get a date on when AIG will be unwound and ready to shut down?
I would be more than happy to pay milllions in bonuses if they said, "we'll be done by Christmas 2009. Oh, and 200 billion please."
Fine. Give me a deadline and a cost. Anything below that is a performance bonus for them.
And no one has a problem with Liddy. Hell, I don't doubt that some of these guys were clean, but they needed to be completely replaced.
Its not as if there are no people with these skills in the NYC except those who worked there previously.
Seriously, can we get a date on when AIG will be unwound and ready to shut down?
I would be more than happy to pay milllions in bonuses if they said, "we'll be done by Christmas 2009. Oh, and 200 billion please."
Posted by: Harun at March 25, 2009 11:22 AM (vZJNO)
236
Harun,
I think you will find that the current roster of AIG-FP people are basically trying to fix what Joe Passano broke. That is why they accepted the $1/year but with a completion or retention or performance bonus. Most of the bad lot had left months before the shit hit the fan. This was catastrophic risk undertaking much like what is going to happen to insurers and insured when the next super hurricane hits Florida because of how Charlie Crist has denuded the regulated insurance business.
I think you will find that the current roster of AIG-FP people are basically trying to fix what Joe Passano broke. That is why they accepted the $1/year but with a completion or retention or performance bonus. Most of the bad lot had left months before the shit hit the fan. This was catastrophic risk undertaking much like what is going to happen to insurers and insured when the next super hurricane hits Florida because of how Charlie Crist has denuded the regulated insurance business.
Posted by: Jack is Back! at March 25, 2009 11:23 AM (T+hEc)
237
Jazz and Miss Marple:
Ah, this is what it sounds like when adults speak rather than children!
An anecdote from my own life may serve as illumination, if only as to why I think the way I do.
I grew up in Cheyenne, Wyoming. A pretty blue-collar town in a very blue-collar state. And I was the second kid of a single mom during the 1970's, which hit my state very hard indeed. I suppose we were poor, but I never felt particularly badly off because everyone I knew was in the same boat. We wore hand-me-down or thrift-shop clothes and got donated-commodities milk and cheese and the neighborhood church on Thursdays ("gubmint cheese" was what we called it -- pale, weird-tasting cheese stamped with some kind of purple dye that instantly identified you as a poor kid at school if they saw you eating it on your sandwich). We lived in a trailer for many years (rented) and "moved up" to an apartment when I was in grade school.
But.
We never went on welfare. Never. My mom wouldn't even sign up for AIDC because we came from a family that didn't believe in government hand-outs. We'd take donated cheese and milk from the government via our church because it came from our own neighborhood, but my mom was adamant about going any further. Better to starve than be beholden to the government.
My sister and I didn't get an allowance. If we wanted spending money we had to earn it. I raked yards, shoveled show, wrangled dogs, scooped poop, killed rats, harvested corn and wheat, ran fence, mowed lawns, cut weeds -- anything to turn a buck. And this was all before I was fifteen years old. Nor was I unusual; almost every kid I knew had to do the same thing. And you know what? We were not rich by any stretch, but we never went hungry, we always had clothes, and we always had a roof over our head.
I've never envied rich people because I know what wealth does, both the bad and the good. And generally, wealth is a good thing. It allows for a more entertaining, more fulfilling, healthier, and more exciting life. Being poor is not fun. It is boring more than anything. You can't afford the price of a movie, you can't drive because you can't pay for gas or insurance, you have to skimp on a hundred small things, and you don't get out of town much if at all. Your kids wear patched up jeans and beat-up shoes that you pray will hold out for another year. You fret over whether you can afford to get a haircut and pay the electric bill. It's no fun, and anyone who pines for that kind of life is an idiot. Being poor sucks.
But coming from a poor background means that I appreciate wealth but am not engrossed by it. I know it can disappear, and that if it does, I can survive. Life does not end if the money goes. Things get harder, more hardscrabble, closer to the bone...but it goes on. There are many pleasures still to be had. And wasting your time on envy and bitterness only makes the limited pleasures you have that much smaller.
Trust me on this. I've been there.
Ah, this is what it sounds like when adults speak rather than children!
An anecdote from my own life may serve as illumination, if only as to why I think the way I do.
I grew up in Cheyenne, Wyoming. A pretty blue-collar town in a very blue-collar state. And I was the second kid of a single mom during the 1970's, which hit my state very hard indeed. I suppose we were poor, but I never felt particularly badly off because everyone I knew was in the same boat. We wore hand-me-down or thrift-shop clothes and got donated-commodities milk and cheese and the neighborhood church on Thursdays ("gubmint cheese" was what we called it -- pale, weird-tasting cheese stamped with some kind of purple dye that instantly identified you as a poor kid at school if they saw you eating it on your sandwich). We lived in a trailer for many years (rented) and "moved up" to an apartment when I was in grade school.
But.
We never went on welfare. Never. My mom wouldn't even sign up for AIDC because we came from a family that didn't believe in government hand-outs. We'd take donated cheese and milk from the government via our church because it came from our own neighborhood, but my mom was adamant about going any further. Better to starve than be beholden to the government.
My sister and I didn't get an allowance. If we wanted spending money we had to earn it. I raked yards, shoveled show, wrangled dogs, scooped poop, killed rats, harvested corn and wheat, ran fence, mowed lawns, cut weeds -- anything to turn a buck. And this was all before I was fifteen years old. Nor was I unusual; almost every kid I knew had to do the same thing. And you know what? We were not rich by any stretch, but we never went hungry, we always had clothes, and we always had a roof over our head.
I've never envied rich people because I know what wealth does, both the bad and the good. And generally, wealth is a good thing. It allows for a more entertaining, more fulfilling, healthier, and more exciting life. Being poor is not fun. It is boring more than anything. You can't afford the price of a movie, you can't drive because you can't pay for gas or insurance, you have to skimp on a hundred small things, and you don't get out of town much if at all. Your kids wear patched up jeans and beat-up shoes that you pray will hold out for another year. You fret over whether you can afford to get a haircut and pay the electric bill. It's no fun, and anyone who pines for that kind of life is an idiot. Being poor sucks.
But coming from a poor background means that I appreciate wealth but am not engrossed by it. I know it can disappear, and that if it does, I can survive. Life does not end if the money goes. Things get harder, more hardscrabble, closer to the bone...but it goes on. There are many pleasures still to be had. And wasting your time on envy and bitterness only makes the limited pleasures you have that much smaller.
Trust me on this. I've been there.
Posted by: Monty at March 25, 2009 11:23 AM (/0a60)
238
They
have effectively already done that in 1993. Tax law now says that if a
company pays any officer in excess of 1 million per year it is not
considered a business expense and can not be subtracted from gross
income to determine taxable profit.
That is what got all these "bonuses" started to begin with.
Oh hell. This is what I'm talking about. The Regulatory hole is Alice in Wonderland. It never fucking ends.
It's "Let's Make a Deal" with a curtain behind every curtain.
have effectively already done that in 1993. Tax law now says that if a
company pays any officer in excess of 1 million per year it is not
considered a business expense and can not be subtracted from gross
income to determine taxable profit.
That is what got all these "bonuses" started to begin with.
Oh hell. This is what I'm talking about. The Regulatory hole is Alice in Wonderland. It never fucking ends.
It's "Let's Make a Deal" with a curtain behind every curtain.
Posted by: WTF Capital Investments at March 25, 2009 11:25 AM (AHrTm)
239
"Make a market for the products that not only aren't trading right now, nobody can agree on an actual price for them."
You don't "make a market" by backstopping 93% of potential losses with taxpayer dollars. You're a conservative? And the prices are agreed upon, by the market, most RMBS and CMBS are trading 30-40%, that's the market. The zombie companies don't want to admit this, that doesn't make it untrue.
"Liddy was brought in to break up AIG into the sound and unsound pieces, sell off the sound pieces and unwind the colloateralized obligations and pay the US gov't back with the proceeds. It is an extremely complex task, one that requires people with significant background in trading financial products and people who know that in the end they will not have a job."
BS.
This is a joba conservatorship could have done. DO I trust the govt. to run AIG? No.
But the law is clear on what happens. Why this "unwind" should be in the hands of the company that put itself in this position, you don't really explain. People from the private sector could have been hired by the conservatorship to liquidate what's left of this Ponzi.
"On the one hand, we invest a couple hundred billion dollars and hope to get some or all of it back. On the other, we allow AIG to implode and take done the financial system and the economy, cost incalculable."
Any thought that this money will be paid back is either ignorant of the facts, or entirely disingenuous. I posted upthread how data has shown -A and lower tranches are currently on a 3 year 100% default rate. This is a guarantee of taxpayer raping combined with promised QE. Anyone who believes anythign else should look at China's threats as proof positive Ben will throw money to this blackhole until Jeebus comes back.
Won't work.
Bury the Zombies.
Count the peanuts in the shit-pile.
Where's the conservatives now, or has fear taken over?
You don't "make a market" by backstopping 93% of potential losses with taxpayer dollars. You're a conservative? And the prices are agreed upon, by the market, most RMBS and CMBS are trading 30-40%, that's the market. The zombie companies don't want to admit this, that doesn't make it untrue.
"Liddy was brought in to break up AIG into the sound and unsound pieces, sell off the sound pieces and unwind the colloateralized obligations and pay the US gov't back with the proceeds. It is an extremely complex task, one that requires people with significant background in trading financial products and people who know that in the end they will not have a job."
BS.
This is a joba conservatorship could have done. DO I trust the govt. to run AIG? No.
But the law is clear on what happens. Why this "unwind" should be in the hands of the company that put itself in this position, you don't really explain. People from the private sector could have been hired by the conservatorship to liquidate what's left of this Ponzi.
"On the one hand, we invest a couple hundred billion dollars and hope to get some or all of it back. On the other, we allow AIG to implode and take done the financial system and the economy, cost incalculable."
Any thought that this money will be paid back is either ignorant of the facts, or entirely disingenuous. I posted upthread how data has shown -A and lower tranches are currently on a 3 year 100% default rate. This is a guarantee of taxpayer raping combined with promised QE. Anyone who believes anythign else should look at China's threats as proof positive Ben will throw money to this blackhole until Jeebus comes back.
Won't work.
Bury the Zombies.
Count the peanuts in the shit-pile.
Where's the conservatives now, or has fear taken over?
Posted by: ether at March 25, 2009 11:26 AM (D+Ibp)
240
This mobbing of the AIG employees is insane.
Posted by: tcbevo at March 25, 2009 09:15 AM
----
I think it's crazy insane. Mob rule. Class warfare. Tear down the rich to take care of the poor and the lazy (and those are not necessarily one and the same). Destroy the productive class to make everyone unproductive and reliant on Government. Just what the hell does Government produce anyway? Paperwork. It's friggin' nuts. How does one rationalize with those who are crazy insane? I honestly and truly do not know.
Posted by: tcbevo at March 25, 2009 09:15 AM
----
I think it's crazy insane. Mob rule. Class warfare. Tear down the rich to take care of the poor and the lazy (and those are not necessarily one and the same). Destroy the productive class to make everyone unproductive and reliant on Government. Just what the hell does Government produce anyway? Paperwork. It's friggin' nuts. How does one rationalize with those who are crazy insane? I honestly and truly do not know.
Posted by: RickZ at March 25, 2009 11:27 AM (aKw4S)
241
@ 220 flenser
Stockholders decide who the "executives and Boards of Directors" are, you wanna-be capitalist. You think if Buffet had bought 80% of AIG, he'd just say, "take my money and do your own thing guys"?
Actually, yes.
Of course I would expect that Buffet wouldperform 'due diligence' prior to investing.
Stockholders decide who the "executives and Boards of Directors" are, you wanna-be capitalist. You think if Buffet had bought 80% of AIG, he'd just say, "take my money and do your own thing guys"?
Actually, yes.
Of course I would expect that Buffet wouldperform 'due diligence' prior to investing.
Posted by: Mikki at March 25, 2009 11:27 AM (Zq+Z8)
242
What a fucking shame. I truly hope I can come face to face with an ACORN worker so I can beat the shit of him/her.
Well, there's always the census!
I feel bad though for the regular census workers who are not a part of ACORN. I think that their list of "dicey" neighborhoods to canvass has just grown exponentially larger.
Well, there's always the census!
I feel bad though for the regular census workers who are not a part of ACORN. I think that their list of "dicey" neighborhoods to canvass has just grown exponentially larger.
Posted by: Deety at March 25, 2009 11:28 AM (1jglO)
243
Monty at 238: thanks for sharing. Your mother is a saint, and a true American.
Posted by: Cyn at March 25, 2009 11:29 AM (kbu8g)
244
"On the one hand, we invest a couple hundred billion dollars and hope to get some or all of it back. On the other, we allow AIG to implode and take done the financial system and the economy, cost incalculable."
Another possible myth meant to scare conservatives in nationalization.
http://tinyurl.com/cg6yg3
"How did Goldman protect itself? Sensing AIG's weakening capital position through 2006 and 2007, Goldman demanded more collateral from AIG and covered outstanding risk with instruments from other firms.
But this raises two critical questions. The first is why $12.9 billion of taxpayer money went from AIG to Goldman. What risk—systemic or otherwise—was being covered? If Goldman wasn't going to suffer severe losses, why are taxpayers paying them off at 100 cents on the dollar? As I wrote earlier in the week, the real AIG scandal is that the company's trading partners are getting fully paid rather than taking a haircut.
Goldman's answer is that it was merely taking a commercial position—trying to avoid any losses at all on its AIG positions. I suppose we can hardly expect Goldman to reject government assistance in the form of pure cash that seems to have had no strings attached.
But what were the government officials possibly thinking? The only rationale for what we should call the "hidden conduit bailout" to AIG's trading partners is that the cascading effect of AIG's inability to pay would have been devastating. But Goldman has now said very clearly there would have been no cascade. Not even a ripple.
Is the same true of AIG's other counterparties, including several foreign banks? What examination of the impact of an AIG failure did federal officials undertake before deciding to spend countless billions bailing out AIG and its trading partners?
The government decision to bail out AIG was made after the private parties, supposedly at risk, had declined to structure a private series of investments that might have avoided the need for use of public money. Perhaps they knew the impact of an AIG default would be small, or perhaps they knew that the federal officials in the room would blink and ante up. In a post-Lehman moment when panic, not reason, was dominating the discussion, perhaps they figured they could walk away with extra billions—and, indeed, they did."
Another possible myth meant to scare conservatives in nationalization.
http://tinyurl.com/cg6yg3
"How did Goldman protect itself? Sensing AIG's weakening capital position through 2006 and 2007, Goldman demanded more collateral from AIG and covered outstanding risk with instruments from other firms.
But this raises two critical questions. The first is why $12.9 billion of taxpayer money went from AIG to Goldman. What risk—systemic or otherwise—was being covered? If Goldman wasn't going to suffer severe losses, why are taxpayers paying them off at 100 cents on the dollar? As I wrote earlier in the week, the real AIG scandal is that the company's trading partners are getting fully paid rather than taking a haircut.
Goldman's answer is that it was merely taking a commercial position—trying to avoid any losses at all on its AIG positions. I suppose we can hardly expect Goldman to reject government assistance in the form of pure cash that seems to have had no strings attached.
But what were the government officials possibly thinking? The only rationale for what we should call the "hidden conduit bailout" to AIG's trading partners is that the cascading effect of AIG's inability to pay would have been devastating. But Goldman has now said very clearly there would have been no cascade. Not even a ripple.
Is the same true of AIG's other counterparties, including several foreign banks? What examination of the impact of an AIG failure did federal officials undertake before deciding to spend countless billions bailing out AIG and its trading partners?
The government decision to bail out AIG was made after the private parties, supposedly at risk, had declined to structure a private series of investments that might have avoided the need for use of public money. Perhaps they knew the impact of an AIG default would be small, or perhaps they knew that the federal officials in the room would blink and ante up. In a post-Lehman moment when panic, not reason, was dominating the discussion, perhaps they figured they could walk away with extra billions—and, indeed, they did."
Posted by: ether at March 25, 2009 11:31 AM (D+Ibp)
245
"I think you will find that the current roster of AIG-FP people are basically trying to fix what Joe Passano broke. That is why they accepted the $1/year but with a completion or retention or performance bonus. "
Sorry, but if my company goes bankrupt, everyone packs their desks and goes home. Nobody works for a dollar a year and a million dollar bonus.
That bonus should have been based on how much AIG they unwound, how about some metrics here? How about some deadlines?
11 of the people to get bonuses no longer work there...so why were they getting retention bonuses?
No offense, but for tax money, I think we should get a good deal.
Sorry, but if my company goes bankrupt, everyone packs their desks and goes home. Nobody works for a dollar a year and a million dollar bonus.
That bonus should have been based on how much AIG they unwound, how about some metrics here? How about some deadlines?
11 of the people to get bonuses no longer work there...so why were they getting retention bonuses?
No offense, but for tax money, I think we should get a good deal.
Posted by: Harun at March 25, 2009 11:32 AM (vZJNO)
246
There are millions of people who have worked harder than him for a lot less, and got shafted ten times as bad.
O RLY?
When was the last time you had members of congress ginning up a lynch mob and then asking your boss to release your home address?
O RLY?
When was the last time you had members of congress ginning up a lynch mob and then asking your boss to release your home address?
Posted by: Deety at March 25, 2009 11:32 AM (1jglO)
247
As is comparing everyone in ACORN to a shiftless bum.Every banker is not Madoff. He was just better than they were.
Posted by: RRowdy at March 25, 2009 09:47 AM
----
That makes ACORNbetter than a shiftless bum. Shiftier, too.
Posted by: RRowdy at March 25, 2009 09:47 AM
----
That makes ACORNbetter than a shiftless bum. Shiftier, too.
Posted by: RickZ at March 25, 2009 11:34 AM (aKw4S)
248
if it's not a good deal, you don't make the purchase.and, to further belabor the point, the G is a shareholder and have no more rights than any other shareholder to cancel a contract.
Posted by: ed at March 25, 2009 11:34 AM (Urhve)
249
The beauty of this blog is that many very bright - and honest - people hang out here and write their thoughts. I'd like to thank Monty and Jackstraw, in particular. I don't know what you guys do for a living, but you're among the clearest thinkers - and writers - on the web. I always scroll down to find your comments. Just sayin'.
And now, back to Veeshir's "end of civilization" as we know it.
And now, back to Veeshir's "end of civilization" as we know it.
Posted by: Old Sailor at March 25, 2009 11:35 AM (/Ft4q)
250
WTF Capital Investments I don’t know where you have been for the past 6 months but the history of this is well documented in study after study.
Prior to CRA there was no regulation that called for lenders to lend to deadbeats. There was a study that was done by one of the “black activists” in the Democrap Party that accused the banks of redlining. That as what got the law recommended. Before the law even came up for vote in the Dem congress that study was refuted. It was shown that if you adjusted for things like credit-worthiness there was no difference between loans to blacks and whites.
The law was passed anyway because they had a 60 vote majority. It did not do any harm yet though because it had no teeth. Along came Bill Clinton and another Dem majority and the law was revised to give it teeth. In addition the regulations that enforced the law were changed to forbid the banks from blocking loans based on income only from welfare etc. Along with those regulations were strict “record keeping” requirements which opened the ball for groups like ACORV to sue in the inner cities. After that the banks really had no choice.
Still the banks would not be able to make these loans because they had a very high default rate. That is where FF stepped in to buy the loans from them and the neighborhood banks became the originator only. The government pushed this on FF who then decided they could make money on it.
Greenspan, Bush, and even McLame warned of coming doom on several different occasions but could get nothing done because they were blocked every time by the Dems.
All of this is well documented and has been placed out there on different sites. All except the MSM. Fox documented a lot of it before the election but they gave up when McLame bowed out.
Prior to CRA there was no regulation that called for lenders to lend to deadbeats. There was a study that was done by one of the “black activists” in the Democrap Party that accused the banks of redlining. That as what got the law recommended. Before the law even came up for vote in the Dem congress that study was refuted. It was shown that if you adjusted for things like credit-worthiness there was no difference between loans to blacks and whites.
The law was passed anyway because they had a 60 vote majority. It did not do any harm yet though because it had no teeth. Along came Bill Clinton and another Dem majority and the law was revised to give it teeth. In addition the regulations that enforced the law were changed to forbid the banks from blocking loans based on income only from welfare etc. Along with those regulations were strict “record keeping” requirements which opened the ball for groups like ACORV to sue in the inner cities. After that the banks really had no choice.
Still the banks would not be able to make these loans because they had a very high default rate. That is where FF stepped in to buy the loans from them and the neighborhood banks became the originator only. The government pushed this on FF who then decided they could make money on it.
Greenspan, Bush, and even McLame warned of coming doom on several different occasions but could get nothing done because they were blocked every time by the Dems.
All of this is well documented and has been placed out there on different sites. All except the MSM. Fox documented a lot of it before the election but they gave up when McLame bowed out.
Posted by: Vic at March 25, 2009 11:36 AM (f6os6)
251
So, let's hear the explanations why GM should be given a bail out while keeping the same management and unions in control, but they will only have paychecks of 1 dollar a year and a million dollar retention bonus?
Anyone? No? Why not?
Anyone? No? Why not?
Posted by: Harun at March 25, 2009 11:37 AM (vZJNO)
252
Old Sailor at 250:
+11ty
+11ty
Posted by: Cyn at March 25, 2009 11:37 AM (kbu8g)
253
You don't "make a market" by backstopping 93% of potential losses with taxpayer dollars. You're a conservative? And the prices are agreed upon, by the market, most RMBS and CMBS are trading 30-40%, that's the market. The zombie companies don't want to admit this, that doesn't make it untrue.
Really? Show me how we are backstopping 93% of potential loses. SInce you are being specific, I want to see the 93% number down to the percent. Proof please.
Most derivative products, the toxic ones that are at the heart of this problem, aren't trading at all. That's the problem and the reason that Geitner's public/private plan was released yesterday.
BS.
This is a joba conservatorship could have done. DO I trust the govt. to run AIG? No.
I see. You want to go through a bankruptcy, wipe out trillions of dollars, and have the government appoint a conservator instead of not going into bankruptcy, try to preserve some wealth and a functioning financial system and have the government appoint a workout specialitst to wind this down as painlessly as possible.
You pick your poison, I'll pick mine. This argument has been held many times here and it's pointless to keep going around and around. You burn it down people do have the advantage of not having to live with the consequences of your actions. Yet. But if we drive all the people who are trying to work this problem out of AIG you may get your wish. $200 billion will look like chump change.
Yea, I call myself a conservative. What I don't call myself is suicidal. It wasn't pure conservatism that got us into this mess and it won't be pure conservatism that gets us out.
Really? Show me how we are backstopping 93% of potential loses. SInce you are being specific, I want to see the 93% number down to the percent. Proof please.
Most derivative products, the toxic ones that are at the heart of this problem, aren't trading at all. That's the problem and the reason that Geitner's public/private plan was released yesterday.
BS.
This is a joba conservatorship could have done. DO I trust the govt. to run AIG? No.
I see. You want to go through a bankruptcy, wipe out trillions of dollars, and have the government appoint a conservator instead of not going into bankruptcy, try to preserve some wealth and a functioning financial system and have the government appoint a workout specialitst to wind this down as painlessly as possible.
You pick your poison, I'll pick mine. This argument has been held many times here and it's pointless to keep going around and around. You burn it down people do have the advantage of not having to live with the consequences of your actions. Yet. But if we drive all the people who are trying to work this problem out of AIG you may get your wish. $200 billion will look like chump change.
Yea, I call myself a conservative. What I don't call myself is suicidal. It wasn't pure conservatism that got us into this mess and it won't be pure conservatism that gets us out.
Posted by: JackStraw at March 25, 2009 11:39 AM (VW9/y)
254
Look, i'm not a lefty-troll and i'm a regular reader here, but falling into the "bonus" trap, whether or notit evolves into an assault on contracts, is nothing more than a ploy to distract from the assault of an even more important principle:
Free markets require failure.
Kill the Zombies.
Count the peanuts in the shitpile.
Free markets require failure.
Kill the Zombies.
Count the peanuts in the shitpile.
Posted by: ether at March 25, 2009 11:40 AM (D+Ibp)
255
fuck my comments, just read ether.
and yeah, respect the contracts...my anger is not towards those who got a good deal, but those who offered such deals...i.e. Government.
and yeah, respect the contracts...my anger is not towards those who got a good deal, but those who offered such deals...i.e. Government.
Posted by: Harun at March 25, 2009 11:40 AM (vZJNO)
256
My reactions:
1. We have become a nation so immersed in whining that even our top executives whine like unoiled bearings on the drive wheels of the train.
2. This situation was created by the fundamental error of bailing out a failed enterprise with tax dollars. Should never have been done in the first place.
3. A corporation is a group endeavor, and a means of doing business. Clue for executives: when your corporation screws up you get hit too. Or ought to. The idea is that this gives you a stake in keeping the ship not only afloat but on course.
I have great sympathy for people who get cancer, hit by drunk drivers, etc etc. Executives who live at the top and then have a hissy because they are asked to make wage concessions have lost their bearings. These are not the kind of people who built great American companies. They are a symptom of the same culture of entitlement that infests ACORN. Give me a fukking break.
Cluebat. Life isn't always fair. Pick yourself back up and get back in the race, you've had it better than most. Or quit and do something else. It's your right, and more power to you.. Just spare me the tale of woe and anguish.
1. We have become a nation so immersed in whining that even our top executives whine like unoiled bearings on the drive wheels of the train.
2. This situation was created by the fundamental error of bailing out a failed enterprise with tax dollars. Should never have been done in the first place.
3. A corporation is a group endeavor, and a means of doing business. Clue for executives: when your corporation screws up you get hit too. Or ought to. The idea is that this gives you a stake in keeping the ship not only afloat but on course.
I have great sympathy for people who get cancer, hit by drunk drivers, etc etc. Executives who live at the top and then have a hissy because they are asked to make wage concessions have lost their bearings. These are not the kind of people who built great American companies. They are a symptom of the same culture of entitlement that infests ACORN. Give me a fukking break.
Cluebat. Life isn't always fair. Pick yourself back up and get back in the race, you've had it better than most. Or quit and do something else. It's your right, and more power to you.. Just spare me the tale of woe and anguish.
Posted by: DaMav at March 25, 2009 11:41 AM (W2KIY)
257
http://tinyurl.com/d4b4nf
Sample Investment Under the Legacy Loans Program
Step 1: If a bank has a pool of residential mortgages with $100 face value that it is seeking to divest, the bank would approach the FDIC.
Step 2: The FDIC would determine, according to the above process, that they would be willing to leverage the pool at a 6-to-1 debt-to-equity ratio.
Step 3: The pool would then be auctioned by the FDIC, with several private sector bidders submitting bids. The highest bid from the private sector – in this example, $84 – would be the winner and would form a Public-Private Investment Fund to purchase the pool of mortgages.
Step 4: Of this $84 purchase price, the FDIC would provide guarantees for $72 of financing, leaving $12 of equity.
Step 5: The Treasury would then provide 50% of the equity funding required on a side-by-side basis with the investor. In this example, Treasury would invest approximately $6, with the private investor contributing $6.
Step 6: The private investor would then manage the servicing of the asset pool and the timing of its disposition on an ongoing basis – using asset managers approved and subject to oversight by the FDIC. "The example shows that taxpayers are on the hook for $78 out of every $84, in other words 93%, slightly better than the 97% number floating around yesterday."
http://tinyurl.com/d4b4nf
Sample Investment Under the Legacy Loans Program
Step 1: If a bank has a pool of residential mortgages with $100 face value that it is seeking to divest, the bank would approach the FDIC.
Step 2: The FDIC would determine, according to the above process, that they would be willing to leverage the pool at a 6-to-1 debt-to-equity ratio.
Step 3: The pool would then be auctioned by the FDIC, with several private sector bidders submitting bids. The highest bid from the private sector – in this example, $84 – would be the winner and would form a Public-Private Investment Fund to purchase the pool of mortgages.
Step 4: Of this $84 purchase price, the FDIC would provide guarantees for $72 of financing, leaving $12 of equity.
Step 5: The Treasury would then provide 50% of the equity funding required on a side-by-side basis with the investor. In this example, Treasury would invest approximately $6, with the private investor contributing $6.
Step 6: The private investor would then manage the servicing of the asset pool and the timing of its disposition on an ongoing basis – using asset managers approved and subject to oversight by the FDIC. "The example shows that taxpayers are on the hook for $78 out of every $84, in other words 93%, slightly better than the 97% number floating around yesterday."
Posted by: ether at March 25, 2009 11:43 AM (D+Ibp)
258
DaMav, this was nothing so polite as "asked to make wage concessions". What went on was a campaign of lies and mob intimidation. And that should scare you because it was called for by your government.
Posted by: kidney, currently shuddering at the consequences at March 25, 2009 11:44 AM (FgUFX)
259
DeMav:
Right. On. The. Money.
Right. On. The. Money.
Posted by: sfcmac at March 25, 2009 11:44 AM (kNmyI)
260
Somewhat O/T: over at realclearpolitics.com:
Dodd's Wife a Former Director of Bermuda-Based IPC Holdings, an AIG Controlled Company
"No wonder Senator Christopher Dodd (D-Conn) went wobbly last week when asked about his February amendment ratifying hundreds of millions of dollars in bonuses to executives at insurance giant AIG. Dodd has been one of the company's favorite recipients of campaign contributions. But it turns out that Senator Dodd's wife has also benefited from past connections to AIG as well."
Dodd's Wife a Former Director of Bermuda-Based IPC Holdings, an AIG Controlled Company
"No wonder Senator Christopher Dodd (D-Conn) went wobbly last week when asked about his February amendment ratifying hundreds of millions of dollars in bonuses to executives at insurance giant AIG. Dodd has been one of the company's favorite recipients of campaign contributions. But it turns out that Senator Dodd's wife has also benefited from past connections to AIG as well."
Posted by: Cyn at March 25, 2009 11:44 AM (kbu8g)
261
A bit clearer:
Step 1: If a bank has a pool of residential mortgages with $100 face value that it is seeking to divest, the bank would approach the FDIC.
Step 2: The FDIC would determine, according to the above process, that they would be willing to leverage the pool at a 6-to-1 debt-to-equity ratio.
Step 2: The FDIC would determine, according to the above process, that they would be willing to leverage the pool at a 6-to-1 debt-to-equity ratio.
Step 4: Of this $84 purchase price, the FDIC would provide guarantees for $72 of financing, leaving $12 of equity.
Step 5: The Treasury would then provide 50% of the equity funding required on a side-by-side basis with the investor. In this example, Treasury would invest approximately $6, with the private investor contributing $6.
Step 6: The private investor would then manage the servicing of the asset pool and the timing of its disposition on an ongoing basis – using asset managers approved and subject to oversight by the FDIC.
Step 1: If a bank has a pool of residential mortgages with $100 face value that it is seeking to divest, the bank would approach the FDIC.
Step 2: The FDIC would determine, according to the above process, that they would be willing to leverage the pool at a 6-to-1 debt-to-equity ratio.
Step 2: The FDIC would determine, according to the above process, that they would be willing to leverage the pool at a 6-to-1 debt-to-equity ratio.
Step 4: Of this $84 purchase price, the FDIC would provide guarantees for $72 of financing, leaving $12 of equity.
Step 5: The Treasury would then provide 50% of the equity funding required on a side-by-side basis with the investor. In this example, Treasury would invest approximately $6, with the private investor contributing $6.
Step 6: The private investor would then manage the servicing of the asset pool and the timing of its disposition on an ongoing basis – using asset managers approved and subject to oversight by the FDIC.
Posted by: ether at March 25, 2009 11:45 AM (D+Ibp)
262
Those execs missed a great chance to have some fun with the ACORNunists. How about a big banner:
WELCOME OBAMA'S ACORN BROWNSHIRTS.
The media would have HAD to report that. My guess is that bus would have simply not stopped at THAT house....
http://www.wilton-aig-protest.com
WELCOME OBAMA'S ACORN BROWNSHIRTS.
The media would have HAD to report that. My guess is that bus would have simply not stopped at THAT house....
http://www.wilton-aig-protest.com
Posted by: Reality D. Blipcrotch at March 25, 2009 11:45 AM (acrSm)
263
This is what Obama wants. Demonize AIG employees. Personalize the hate. Drive them out.
Then when AIG fails (even harder than it has) because of a lack of leadership, demonize the AIG employees who left, blame them as "wreckers."
That way he gets to seize control of the finance industry.
Then when AIG fails (even harder than it has) because of a lack of leadership, demonize the AIG employees who left, blame them as "wreckers."
That way he gets to seize control of the finance industry.
Posted by: Daryl Herbert at March 25, 2009 11:46 AM (vpcJV)
264
236 would have been fun!
Posted by: kidney, currently shuddering at the consequences at March 25, 2009 11:46 AM (FgUFX)
265
Muffy -- thanks for the heads up, but I was merely wanting some sort of common knowledge facts n figures to throw at this buffoon that he/she/it couldn't write off as right winger propaganda. If there was some sort of info that could be found at a non-conservative or better yet non political site I'd love to get it (sorry, to these folks Drudge is too politically tainted -- only CNN tells the truth...does that give you an idea of what I'm arguing against?)
Right at the moment there are people on that paper's opinion page calling for AIG employees to go to prison (because they got bonuses) and how this is just another thing Bush needs to go on trial for, and blah, blah. I bring up the constitutionality of bills of attainder vis a vis these bonuses and how the current administration has no right to pander outrage on this, and voila! I'm obviously a hateful right wing neonazi sent to mess with their enlightened discourse by spreading hateful lies and rumors.
Right at the moment there are people on that paper's opinion page calling for AIG employees to go to prison (because they got bonuses) and how this is just another thing Bush needs to go on trial for, and blah, blah. I bring up the constitutionality of bills of attainder vis a vis these bonuses and how the current administration has no right to pander outrage on this, and voila! I'm obviously a hateful right wing neonazi sent to mess with their enlightened discourse by spreading hateful lies and rumors.
Posted by: unknown jane at March 25, 2009 11:46 AM (EpmMs)
266
Imagine Andrew Cuomo the man who spearheaded NINJA loans and steered Fannie Mae into subprime loans doing this?
Now I understand how the Nazis came to power.
Now I understand how the Nazis came to power.
Posted by: Thomas Jackson at March 25, 2009 11:47 AM (0Qynq)
267
Harun:
I agree ... the proper solution was receivership.
The new owners can decide whether or not to offer existing employees $1 + bonus salaries.
Allow the government in was, as always, a big fucking mistake.
I agree ... the proper solution was receivership.
The new owners can decide whether or not to offer existing employees $1 + bonus salaries.
Allow the government in was, as always, a big fucking mistake.
Posted by: Kristopher at March 25, 2009 11:48 AM (EqbaN)
268
Sorry for the double post, the bulets points didn't show up.
Jackstraw: will this horrific wind-down be painful: most assuredly.
But a horrifying statistic is this:
Total market credit debt to GDP is 350%. We cannot continue until we call a real bottom. That cannot happen till we count the peanuts in the shitpile.
Here's a horrifying chart:
http://tinyurl.com/dmtsvb
Jackstraw: will this horrific wind-down be painful: most assuredly.
But a horrifying statistic is this:
Total market credit debt to GDP is 350%. We cannot continue until we call a real bottom. That cannot happen till we count the peanuts in the shitpile.
Here's a horrifying chart:
http://tinyurl.com/dmtsvb
Posted by: ether at March 25, 2009 11:48 AM (D+Ibp)
269
"But if we drive all the people who are trying to work this problem out of AIG you may get your wish."
Yes. They are the ONLY PEOPLE who can work out this problem.
Just like I am the ONLY PERSON who can keep my company going. Please send me checksssssss...
Yes. They are the ONLY PEOPLE who can work out this problem.
Just like I am the ONLY PERSON who can keep my company going. Please send me checksssssss...
Posted by: Harun at March 25, 2009 11:48 AM (vZJNO)
270
I'm obviously a hateful right wing neonazi sent to mess with their enlightened discourse by spreading hateful lies and rumors. --unknown jane
I enjoy your observations and wonder how I can subscribe to your newsletter.
I enjoy your observations and wonder how I can subscribe to your newsletter.
Posted by: Cyn at March 25, 2009 11:49 AM (kbu8g)
271
When contracts are no longer honored, other laws will by extension will no longer be honored; it will be every man for himself, literally, at that point.
I'll probably be hammered for saying this, but I'm pretty sure we started down that road when we allowed Billy Jeff to skate on perjury back in about '98 or so. I thought at the time that it was a bad precedent to allow a felon to continue in office because he was "to big to fail", but I had no fucking idea the chickens would come to roost so quickly.
I'll probably be hammered for saying this, but I'm pretty sure we started down that road when we allowed Billy Jeff to skate on perjury back in about '98 or so. I thought at the time that it was a bad precedent to allow a felon to continue in office because he was "to big to fail", but I had no fucking idea the chickens would come to roost so quickly.
Posted by: pendejo grande at March 25, 2009 11:50 AM (PXZI9)
272
264 This is what Obama wants. Demonize AIG employees. Personalize the hate. Drive them out.Then when AIG fails (even harder than it has) because of a lack of leadership, demonize the AIG employees who left, blame them as "wreckers."That way he gets to seize control of the finance industry.
Posted by: Daryl Herbert at March 25, 2009 11:46 AM (vpcJV)
DING DING DING
We have a winner!
That is why receivership was never given as an option despite the fact that as my link upthread shows, AIG's collapse may not have been as catastrophic as advertised by the fear mongers looking to nationalize the country.
Posted by: Daryl Herbert at March 25, 2009 11:46 AM (vpcJV)
DING DING DING
We have a winner!
That is why receivership was never given as an option despite the fact that as my link upthread shows, AIG's collapse may not have been as catastrophic as advertised by the fear mongers looking to nationalize the country.
Posted by: ether at March 25, 2009 11:50 AM (D+Ibp)
273
Harun: Yes, sure. This is why whenever America gets into a real war, we end up
dropping peacetime general after general, until finally some drunk
colonel like Grant, or some sober mofo like Petraeus comes up.
The military is not the free market, Harun. Different rules apply there.
dropping peacetime general after general, until finally some drunk
colonel like Grant, or some sober mofo like Petraeus comes up.
The military is not the free market, Harun. Different rules apply there.
Posted by: Jazz at March 25, 2009 11:51 AM (hnq5i)
274
"To work-on a blank check held by every creature born, by men whom you'll never see, whose needs you'll never know, whose ability or laziness or sloppiness or fraud you have no way to learn and no right to question just to work and work and work-and leave it up to the Ivys and Geralds of the world whose stomach will consume the effort, the dreams and the days of your life. And this is the moral law to accept? This-a moral ideal? Well, we tried it-and we learned. Our agony took fouryears, from our first meetingto our last and it ended the only way it could end: in bankrupcy."
Posted by: Sabine at March 25, 2009 11:54 AM (rb5Tr)
275
DaMav:We have become a nation so immersed in whining that even our top
executives whine like unoiled bearings on the drive wheels of the train.
Errmmm ... those train wheels don't whine because of "unoiled bearings". They make that noise because train wheels are on fixed axles, and don't have differentials. When the track curves, even slightly, one of the wheels in each set will either try to turn too fast or too slow, and screach against the rail.
The wear caused by this is cheaper to fix than maintaining a train full of super-heavy-duty diffs ... so all trains squeal when the tracks curve.
executives whine like unoiled bearings on the drive wheels of the train.
Errmmm ... those train wheels don't whine because of "unoiled bearings". They make that noise because train wheels are on fixed axles, and don't have differentials. When the track curves, even slightly, one of the wheels in each set will either try to turn too fast or too slow, and screach against the rail.
The wear caused by this is cheaper to fix than maintaining a train full of super-heavy-duty diffs ... so all trains squeal when the tracks curve.
Posted by: Kristopher at March 25, 2009 11:56 AM (EqbaN)
276
Your mother is a saint, and a true American.
Well, she was a true American, but not a saint. That's kind of my point. She was just an average person trying to get by in extraordinary circumstances. She wasn't some self-aware Randian superhero, mouthing Objectivist platitudes every day as she trudged off to work. She just...did the best she could, and taught us to do the same. We were taught that being poor was no shame as long as you were trying to do better by you and yours. We were taught that money is not the root of all evil, but that things like envy, sycophancy, and hypocrisy often are.
People who demonize the "fat cats" in the abstract often do not consider that about 99% of the folks who work at AIG, Citibank, BofA, or whoever else are just folks. Just people who were hired to do a job, and were paid accordingly. Lots of these people were secretaries, janitors, filing clerks, data-entry people, security guards, and the like. And even the traders, you know, weren't making mistakes out of malice. They just...guessed wrong. Greedy they might have been, but not evil. Are we prepared to criminalize mistakes now? To punish risk-takers? Because that's where we're headed.
There were plenty of people who threw money at the risk-takers when returns were good, don't forget. Everyone with a pension, mutual fund, IRA, or brokerage account was a participant whether they knew it or not. It wasn't them; it was us.
If you're not prepared to get bloody, don't play the game.
Well, she was a true American, but not a saint. That's kind of my point. She was just an average person trying to get by in extraordinary circumstances. She wasn't some self-aware Randian superhero, mouthing Objectivist platitudes every day as she trudged off to work. She just...did the best she could, and taught us to do the same. We were taught that being poor was no shame as long as you were trying to do better by you and yours. We were taught that money is not the root of all evil, but that things like envy, sycophancy, and hypocrisy often are.
People who demonize the "fat cats" in the abstract often do not consider that about 99% of the folks who work at AIG, Citibank, BofA, or whoever else are just folks. Just people who were hired to do a job, and were paid accordingly. Lots of these people were secretaries, janitors, filing clerks, data-entry people, security guards, and the like. And even the traders, you know, weren't making mistakes out of malice. They just...guessed wrong. Greedy they might have been, but not evil. Are we prepared to criminalize mistakes now? To punish risk-takers? Because that's where we're headed.
There were plenty of people who threw money at the risk-takers when returns were good, don't forget. Everyone with a pension, mutual fund, IRA, or brokerage account was a participant whether they knew it or not. It wasn't them; it was us.
If you're not prepared to get bloody, don't play the game.
Posted by: Monty at March 25, 2009 11:56 AM (/0a60)
277
Again, my criticism is not against Liddy or the sales dude from division C who did no wrong.
Nor am I saying we should "name and shame."
I'm saying we need to wind these things down with some certainty.
And I also wonder about people who think saving Lehmans would have averted disaster....wall papering over dry rot doesn't help.
Now, if I am wrong, and yes, we do need 7 years to wind it down, explain...and then tell me how to avoid that in the future.
Nor am I saying we should "name and shame."
I'm saying we need to wind these things down with some certainty.
And I also wonder about people who think saving Lehmans would have averted disaster....wall papering over dry rot doesn't help.
Now, if I am wrong, and yes, we do need 7 years to wind it down, explain...and then tell me how to avoid that in the future.
Posted by: Harun at March 25, 2009 11:58 AM (vZJNO)
278
Also, it would amaze many of you, but I troll alot of liberal blogs and the concensus by most, even the lefty-economists, is to let the Zombies die.
Yes, they are enraged over bonuses, but they're not in denial that an unwind must occur, and is not happening, rather we are being robbed.
Then after the govt. let's ithappen, they'll showcase the corruption and have their argument for nationalization.
Yippee!
Yes, they are enraged over bonuses, but they're not in denial that an unwind must occur, and is not happening, rather we are being robbed.
Then after the govt. let's ithappen, they'll showcase the corruption and have their argument for nationalization.
Yippee!
Posted by: ether at March 25, 2009 12:00 PM (D+Ibp)
279
harun, as you can seeby the flood of folks who want to work at Treasury, it might not be so easy to fill some of the slots. and it will be even harder now because the Government broke its promises.
Posted by: ed at March 25, 2009 12:00 PM (Urhve)
280
What do you want to bet all these AIG staffers pulled the lever for Obama in '08 and will again in '12?
Posted by: MAJHAM at March 25, 2009 12:00 PM (oEBIb)
281
Now, if I am wrong, and yes, we do need 7 years to wind it down, explain...and then tell me how to avoid that in the future.
1. Don't ever let unqualified people get more money than they can pay back.
2. Don't ever let the gov back a mortgage loan that hasn't first been qualified.
3. Destroy Fannie and Freiddie.
1. Don't ever let unqualified people get more money than they can pay back.
2. Don't ever let the gov back a mortgage loan that hasn't first been qualified.
3. Destroy Fannie and Freiddie.
Posted by: EC at March 25, 2009 12:02 PM (mAhn3)
282
"The military is not the free market, Harun. Different rules apply there."
Free market? You must be fucking joking.
The free market should be faster and harsher than the military in weeding out incompetence.
My point is that claiming "no one else" can handle the job is a complete line of BS.
Free market? You must be fucking joking.
The free market should be faster and harsher than the military in weeding out incompetence.
My point is that claiming "no one else" can handle the job is a complete line of BS.
Posted by: Harun at March 25, 2009 12:02 PM (vZJNO)
283
This class envy is poison. Once it is acceptable for a certain group, it becomes acceptable for ALL groups.
When this AIG flap has run its course, there will be another one, even worse.
What makes Barbra Streisand think she should have all of the money she has? She hasn't made a new CD or performed at concert in a long time. She doesn't need all of that money, and besides, I don't like her. Maybe I should organize a bus trip to her Malibu home.
Why does Peyton Manning have millions? All he does is play football. I am sure I can round up a bunch of chess club nerds to stand in front of his house and shout insults.
Mitt Romney has lots of money. Perhaps we should kick him out of the GOP, since he made it through smart fianncial work and company turnarounds...he should have just let those companies go bankrupt.
I am sure some of the people here have more money than I. Maybe I should tell them to send me some.
If you are falling into this envy trap, you will be measured and found wanting.
When this AIG flap has run its course, there will be another one, even worse.
What makes Barbra Streisand think she should have all of the money she has? She hasn't made a new CD or performed at concert in a long time. She doesn't need all of that money, and besides, I don't like her. Maybe I should organize a bus trip to her Malibu home.
Why does Peyton Manning have millions? All he does is play football. I am sure I can round up a bunch of chess club nerds to stand in front of his house and shout insults.
Mitt Romney has lots of money. Perhaps we should kick him out of the GOP, since he made it through smart fianncial work and company turnarounds...he should have just let those companies go bankrupt.
I am sure some of the people here have more money than I. Maybe I should tell them to send me some.
If you are falling into this envy trap, you will be measured and found wanting.
Posted by: Miss Marple at March 25, 2009 12:04 PM (A9BhC)
284
Sorry to seem like i'm lashing out, but we should already be impeaching , if not having a full-on tax-revolt, to end this fucking sham.
"Count the peanuts in the shit-pile"
Yes, it's an annoying slogan, but it's the most succinct and clearest way to describe what MUST be done to save this country.
"Count the peanuts in the shit-pile"
Yes, it's an annoying slogan, but it's the most succinct and clearest way to describe what MUST be done to save this country.
Posted by: ether at March 25, 2009 12:05 PM (D+Ibp)
285
The military is not the free market, Harun. Different rules apply there."
Free market? You must be fucking joking.
I think the point he's making is that the military works by fiat. There is no democratic process in the military heirarchy; the chain of command works be decree. The business world, for lots of obvious reasons, cannot work that way.
Free market? You must be fucking joking.
I think the point he's making is that the military works by fiat. There is no democratic process in the military heirarchy; the chain of command works be decree. The business world, for lots of obvious reasons, cannot work that way.
Posted by: Monty at March 25, 2009 12:05 PM (/0a60)
286
"harun, as you can see by the flood of folks who want to work at Treasury, it might not be so easy to fill some of the slots. and it will be even harder now because the Government broke its promises."
Again, I am for the contracts standing... a deal is a deal. That does not mean I cannot critique those who made the deals.
If GM overpaid, say Union workers, would you not think that maybe GM;s decision was WRONG
Again, I am for the contracts standing... a deal is a deal. That does not mean I cannot critique those who made the deals.
If GM overpaid, say Union workers, would you not think that maybe GM;s decision was WRONG
Posted by: Harun at March 25, 2009 12:05 PM (vZJNO)
287
Wow, CNBC is hosting one guy after another saying the Geithner plan won't work and Rick Santelli pointed out if it has a 60% chance to succeed "did they consider if the 40% kicks in what they are going to do?" Interesting Senator Ensign is talking about class warfare right up there with teh capitol in the background.
I would also like to know exactly what Timmaay thinks about what the Chinese financial guy said. Steve Liesman says he said one thing in the itnerview and Matt Drudge is saying he said the exact opposite. So which is it?
I would also like to know exactly what Timmaay thinks about what the Chinese financial guy said. Steve Liesman says he said one thing in the itnerview and Matt Drudge is saying he said the exact opposite. So which is it?
Posted by: muffy at March 25, 2009 12:08 PM (zplc6)
288
"I think the point he's making is that the military works by fiat. There is no democratic process in the military heirarchy; the chain of command works be decree. The business world, for lots of obvious reasons, cannot work that way."
Sure. That's why people here can claim it was the poor management of AIG that led to this problem, but HEY, we need to keep some of those people on the job for millions, because they are irreplacable.
Yep. Finance jobs are so plentiful now, that no one would realisitically take one of these jobs without million dollar retention bonuses.
Maybe you folks are not aware of this, but plenty of Main street companies are going down....fast, but we don't get retention bonuses while we sell off our inventory that no one wants...hey, can TARP buys some of our unsold inventory?
I only ask that the same rules apply to everyone...and I also think these guys should get what their contract warrants...and then we should hire some 3rd party to unwind the shit and be done.
Sure. That's why people here can claim it was the poor management of AIG that led to this problem, but HEY, we need to keep some of those people on the job for millions, because they are irreplacable.
Yep. Finance jobs are so plentiful now, that no one would realisitically take one of these jobs without million dollar retention bonuses.
Maybe you folks are not aware of this, but plenty of Main street companies are going down....fast, but we don't get retention bonuses while we sell off our inventory that no one wants...hey, can TARP buys some of our unsold inventory?
I only ask that the same rules apply to everyone...and I also think these guys should get what their contract warrants...and then we should hire some 3rd party to unwind the shit and be done.
Posted by: Harun at March 25, 2009 12:11 PM (vZJNO)
289
So, the company I work for is in dire straits and I work my ass off to keep it from failing. However, at the end of the year it fails anyway due to no fault of mine. Some of you think the government can come in and take 90% of my compensation anyway?
Fuck you! And fuck you for being so damn naive.
Fuck you! And fuck you for being so damn naive.
Posted by: Kornkat Annie at March 25, 2009 12:11 PM (dfj1O)
290
Again, I am for the contracts standing... a deal is a deal. That does not mean I cannot critique those who made the deals.
I agree that's totally fair. I think it's utter bullshit that AIG was bailed out and not put into receivership/put into bankruptcy. I think it was utter bullshit not to review these contracts and, just possibly, change from a deferred compensation scheme to something else. I am actually getting a wee bit black helicoptery (is too a term) about why the bonuses were allowed to stay and why it suddenly turned into this huge thing.
But a contract is a contract and the precedent this is setting is chilling.
I agree that's totally fair. I think it's utter bullshit that AIG was bailed out and not put into receivership/put into bankruptcy. I think it was utter bullshit not to review these contracts and, just possibly, change from a deferred compensation scheme to something else. I am actually getting a wee bit black helicoptery (is too a term) about why the bonuses were allowed to stay and why it suddenly turned into this huge thing.
But a contract is a contract and the precedent this is setting is chilling.
Posted by: alexthechick at March 25, 2009 12:11 PM (SHHaV)
291
Power lunch will be discussing this very letter right after their commercial break.
Posted by: muffy at March 25, 2009 12:13 PM (zplc6)
292
"Once it is acceptable for a certain group, it becomes acceptable for ALL groups."
Once bail-out and government funding for one economic sector is acceptable, it becomes acceptable for all groups.
This is the problem. Bail out of AIG is acceptable due to systemic risk, but that means all old employees must go - sorry folks, and that we enact laws that prevent "too big to fail" from happening again.
Once bail-out and government funding for one economic sector is acceptable, it becomes acceptable for all groups.
This is the problem. Bail out of AIG is acceptable due to systemic risk, but that means all old employees must go - sorry folks, and that we enact laws that prevent "too big to fail" from happening again.
Posted by: Harun at March 25, 2009 12:13 PM (vZJNO)
293
Thinking like ACORN and other liberals: The well-being of one's family. Be a shame if something happened to them, they look so flammable.
Posted by: DoesNotMatter at March 25, 2009 12:15 PM (7TajU)
294
America is soooo unfair to its elites. Will these latte drinking limo riding liberals be shafted yet again ?
Posted by: John ryan at March 25, 2009 12:15 PM (LHCAa)
295
You know, Cramer's rant about why Lehman didn't have to fail still applies. And, at this point, since we saved the world, BSC should not have gone down either. The WS people, according to "word on the street" have a lot to say about why they went down and the others didn't. Only people will just say that, nothing else, everytime I ask "well what are they saying" I get no answer. Bet Cramer knows the answer though.
Posted by: muffy at March 25, 2009 12:17 PM (zplc6)
296
"This is the problem. Bail out of AIG is acceptable due to systemic risk, but that means all old employees must go - sorry folks, and that we enact laws that prevent "too big to fail" from happening again."
It was not proven AIG contains systemic risk before dollars were handed out.:
http://tinyurl.com/d9sgqa
"The AIG scandal is getting ever-more disturbing. Goldman Sachs' public conference call explaining its trading relationship and exposure with AIG established, once again, that Goldman knows how to protect itself. According to Goldman, even if AIG had failed, Goldman's losses would have been minimal.
How did Goldman protect itself? Sensing AIG's weakening capital position through 2006 and 2007, Goldman demanded more collateral from AIG and covered outstanding risk with instruments from other firms.
How did Goldman protect itself? Sensing AIG's weakening capital position through 2006 and 2007, Goldman demanded more collateral from AIG and covered outstanding risk with instruments from other firms.
But this raises two critical questions. The first is why $12.9 billion of taxpayer money went from AIG to Goldman. What risk—systemic or otherwise—was being covered? If Goldman wasn't going to suffer severe losses, why are taxpayers paying them off at 100 cents on the dollar? As I wrote earlier in the week, the real AIG scandal is that the company's trading partners are getting fully paid rather than taking a haircut.
Goldman's answer is that it was merely taking a commercial position—trying to avoid any losses at all on its AIG positions. I suppose we can hardly expect Goldman to reject government assistance in the form of pure cash that seems to have had no strings attached.
But what were the government officials possibly thinking? The only rationale for what we should call the "hidden conduit bailout" to AIG's trading partners is that the cascading effect of AIG's inability to pay would have been devastating. But Goldman has now said very clearly there would have been no cascade. Not even a ripple.
Is the same true of AIG's other counterparties, including several foreign banks? What examination of the impact of an AIG failure did federal officials undertake before deciding to spend countless billions bailing out AIG and its trading partners?
The government decision to bail out AIG was made after the private parties, supposedly at risk, had declined to structure a private series of investments that might have avoided the need for use of public money. Perhaps they knew the impact of an AIG default would be small, or perhaps they knew that the federal officials in the room would blink and ante up. In a post-Lehman moment when panic, not reason, was dominating the discussion, perhaps they figured they could walk away with extra billions—and, indeed, they did."
LET THE ZOMBIES FAIL.
It was not proven AIG contains systemic risk before dollars were handed out.:
http://tinyurl.com/d9sgqa
"The AIG scandal is getting ever-more disturbing. Goldman Sachs' public conference call explaining its trading relationship and exposure with AIG established, once again, that Goldman knows how to protect itself. According to Goldman, even if AIG had failed, Goldman's losses would have been minimal.
How did Goldman protect itself? Sensing AIG's weakening capital position through 2006 and 2007, Goldman demanded more collateral from AIG and covered outstanding risk with instruments from other firms.
How did Goldman protect itself? Sensing AIG's weakening capital position through 2006 and 2007, Goldman demanded more collateral from AIG and covered outstanding risk with instruments from other firms.
But this raises two critical questions. The first is why $12.9 billion of taxpayer money went from AIG to Goldman. What risk—systemic or otherwise—was being covered? If Goldman wasn't going to suffer severe losses, why are taxpayers paying them off at 100 cents on the dollar? As I wrote earlier in the week, the real AIG scandal is that the company's trading partners are getting fully paid rather than taking a haircut.
Goldman's answer is that it was merely taking a commercial position—trying to avoid any losses at all on its AIG positions. I suppose we can hardly expect Goldman to reject government assistance in the form of pure cash that seems to have had no strings attached.
But what were the government officials possibly thinking? The only rationale for what we should call the "hidden conduit bailout" to AIG's trading partners is that the cascading effect of AIG's inability to pay would have been devastating. But Goldman has now said very clearly there would have been no cascade. Not even a ripple.
Is the same true of AIG's other counterparties, including several foreign banks? What examination of the impact of an AIG failure did federal officials undertake before deciding to spend countless billions bailing out AIG and its trading partners?
The government decision to bail out AIG was made after the private parties, supposedly at risk, had declined to structure a private series of investments that might have avoided the need for use of public money. Perhaps they knew the impact of an AIG default would be small, or perhaps they knew that the federal officials in the room would blink and ante up. In a post-Lehman moment when panic, not reason, was dominating the discussion, perhaps they figured they could walk away with extra billions—and, indeed, they did."
LET THE ZOMBIES FAIL.
Posted by: ether at March 25, 2009 12:17 PM (D+Ibp)
297
Total market credit debt to GDP is 350%. We cannot continue until we call a real bottom. That cannot happen till we count the peanuts in the shitpile.
I don't disagree. Never have. I just disagree with your way of getting there. In fact, the chart you just posted makes me feel even stronger.
We are still living on a credit bubble that is enormous. There is a ton of toxic debt in the market that has to be exorcised before we can begin to rebuild. AIG sits at the center of this shitstorm. We can argue all day what brought us to this point, we have in fact, endlessly.
But here is the real question, how do we best stabilize the situation, get rid of the bullshit in the system and begin to recover. You favor the peanuts in the shitpile approach, I favor a slower more systematic approach. There is no debate that if we allow AIG to implode, it will take down much of the worldwide financial community. If so, who picks the peanuts out of the shitpile? Won't be many private banks or private insurance companies left so who picks up the pieces? Don't look to Europe, they are in far worse shape than we are. China? Unlikely at best and is that really the route you want to go, having China own more of this country? What about the double digit employment that will ensue, what's gonna turn that around? You think the Obama administration is gonna turn to the private sector? Of course not. And what do you think the price tag to bring us back from that would be? Who's gonna pay for that when employment rates are in the high teens, maybe 20's just as they were at the height of the depression when banks were allowed to fail right and left.
If you want full on bank nationalization along with a host of other industries then by all means, let AIG fail. You seem to forget, the rush to start propping up AIG happened under Bush and Paulson. Not exactly marxists. Why didn't they just it crater?
This simple fact is the US taxpayer in one form or another is going to pay for this mess. Constantly shouting "let it burn" without taking into account the consequences does not make you conservative. It makes you naive
I won't even ask what your solution to the almost guaranteed widespread violence and probably wars would be to worldwide financial meltdown. Actions do have consequences ya know.
I don't disagree. Never have. I just disagree with your way of getting there. In fact, the chart you just posted makes me feel even stronger.
We are still living on a credit bubble that is enormous. There is a ton of toxic debt in the market that has to be exorcised before we can begin to rebuild. AIG sits at the center of this shitstorm. We can argue all day what brought us to this point, we have in fact, endlessly.
But here is the real question, how do we best stabilize the situation, get rid of the bullshit in the system and begin to recover. You favor the peanuts in the shitpile approach, I favor a slower more systematic approach. There is no debate that if we allow AIG to implode, it will take down much of the worldwide financial community. If so, who picks the peanuts out of the shitpile? Won't be many private banks or private insurance companies left so who picks up the pieces? Don't look to Europe, they are in far worse shape than we are. China? Unlikely at best and is that really the route you want to go, having China own more of this country? What about the double digit employment that will ensue, what's gonna turn that around? You think the Obama administration is gonna turn to the private sector? Of course not. And what do you think the price tag to bring us back from that would be? Who's gonna pay for that when employment rates are in the high teens, maybe 20's just as they were at the height of the depression when banks were allowed to fail right and left.
If you want full on bank nationalization along with a host of other industries then by all means, let AIG fail. You seem to forget, the rush to start propping up AIG happened under Bush and Paulson. Not exactly marxists. Why didn't they just it crater?
This simple fact is the US taxpayer in one form or another is going to pay for this mess. Constantly shouting "let it burn" without taking into account the consequences does not make you conservative. It makes you naive
I won't even ask what your solution to the almost guaranteed widespread violence and probably wars would be to worldwide financial meltdown. Actions do have consequences ya know.
Posted by: JackStraw at March 25, 2009 12:17 PM (VW9/y)
298
"296
America is soooo unfair to its elites. Will these latte drinking limo riding liberals be shafted yet again ?
Posted by: John ryan at March 25, 2009 12:15 PM (LHCAa)"Nah, didn't the bill give oodles of money to Hollywood?
America is soooo unfair to its elites. Will these latte drinking limo riding liberals be shafted yet again ?
Posted by: John ryan at March 25, 2009 12:15 PM (LHCAa)"Nah, didn't the bill give oodles of money to Hollywood?
Posted by: muffy at March 25, 2009 12:18 PM (zplc6)
299
"So, the company I work for is in dire straits and I work my ass off to keep it from failing. However, at the end of the year it fails anyway due to no fault of mine. Some of you think the government can come in and take 90% of my compensation anyway?"
Of course not. But normally compensation should be linked to success and not failure...i.e. salesmen are paid commission on sales, not on the number of cold calls they made.
Of course not. But normally compensation should be linked to success and not failure...i.e. salesmen are paid commission on sales, not on the number of cold calls they made.
Posted by: Harun at March 25, 2009 12:18 PM (vZJNO)
300
Did anyone notice that the article in the British paper blamed the "anti capitalists" for trashing the guys house. Is this a real group?
Posted by: muffy at March 25, 2009 12:19 PM (zplc6)
301
"I favor a slower more systematic approach."
As with all economic choices, may I suggest you show me the price. I need a deadline and a budget, or I won't cut you a blank check.
Also, slowly peeling the band-aid off sounds like a good strategy, but is it?
As with all economic choices, may I suggest you show me the price. I need a deadline and a budget, or I won't cut you a blank check.
Also, slowly peeling the band-aid off sounds like a good strategy, but is it?
Posted by: Harun at March 25, 2009 12:21 PM (vZJNO)
302
And another thing, how come the dems won't give back the money Made off contributed? What's up with that?
Posted by: muffy at March 25, 2009 12:22 PM (zplc6)
303
Since you're sharing, Monty, I'll reciprocate.
I grew up as the eldest of nine children. My dad was a parochial school teacher, my mom was a college educated stay-at-home mom. My parents divorced when I was fourteen and my youngest sibling had not even reached her first birthday. We kids stayed with my mom.
Like you, I remember getting the cheese. My dad's uncle was a custodian at a church. He got it for us - not stolen, but generously donated. We got the peanut butter, also - that gritty spread in one gallon cans that had to be mixed before it would lie down on your bread. He also got us a single-sheet TP dispenser and years worth of paper (you go through a lot less when you're using a sheet at a time).
My father did not make a lot of money, so child support was minimal. My mother earned money by taking in sewing. She used that money to put herself through massage therapy school. When she graduated and started making money as a massage therapist, she used that money to pay for her masters in social work. She might be the only conservative social worker you'll ever meet.
My family, every one of my brothers and sisters, went to college and paid for it on their own. We have two lawyers, four doctors, two IT management professionals, and a nurse. And we're each proud of ourselves. My mother was a singular example of determination and work ethic. In his own way, my father, too, was an example of triumph in the face of adversity, but that's another story.
A good example, a good work ethic, and determination enabled my family to do some amazing things. Like you, we didn't feel cheated. We still don't. Frustrated? At times, like now, but we're each grateful we live in a country that allowed us to make good. The current administration is diminishing the value of the ideals that made my family. That's one reason this whole thing is so personal for me.
Failure is okay - monumental failure is okay - as long as we learn from it and don't repeat our mistakes. That's how I'm hoping the country approaches its encounter with Obama and the current Congress.
I grew up as the eldest of nine children. My dad was a parochial school teacher, my mom was a college educated stay-at-home mom. My parents divorced when I was fourteen and my youngest sibling had not even reached her first birthday. We kids stayed with my mom.
Like you, I remember getting the cheese. My dad's uncle was a custodian at a church. He got it for us - not stolen, but generously donated. We got the peanut butter, also - that gritty spread in one gallon cans that had to be mixed before it would lie down on your bread. He also got us a single-sheet TP dispenser and years worth of paper (you go through a lot less when you're using a sheet at a time).
My father did not make a lot of money, so child support was minimal. My mother earned money by taking in sewing. She used that money to put herself through massage therapy school. When she graduated and started making money as a massage therapist, she used that money to pay for her masters in social work. She might be the only conservative social worker you'll ever meet.
My family, every one of my brothers and sisters, went to college and paid for it on their own. We have two lawyers, four doctors, two IT management professionals, and a nurse. And we're each proud of ourselves. My mother was a singular example of determination and work ethic. In his own way, my father, too, was an example of triumph in the face of adversity, but that's another story.
A good example, a good work ethic, and determination enabled my family to do some amazing things. Like you, we didn't feel cheated. We still don't. Frustrated? At times, like now, but we're each grateful we live in a country that allowed us to make good. The current administration is diminishing the value of the ideals that made my family. That's one reason this whole thing is so personal for me.
Failure is okay - monumental failure is okay - as long as we learn from it and don't repeat our mistakes. That's how I'm hoping the country approaches its encounter with Obama and the current Congress.
Posted by: Jazz at March 25, 2009 12:22 PM (hnq5i)
304
I can't express the displeasure in reading Eliot Spitzer and listening to Rod Blagojevich and thinking "these fuckers are right ON THIS".
I think I should head on down to the Metro Correctional Center to see if I can meet with any inmates to unleash this untapped wisdom.
I think I should head on down to the Metro Correctional Center to see if I can meet with any inmates to unleash this untapped wisdom.
Posted by: WTF Capital Investments at March 25, 2009 12:25 PM (AHrTm)
305
I'm totally shocked that anyone would expect a democrat AG to obey the law of the land. Threaten and intimidate yes, obey the law, no.
Posted by: Scrapiron at March 25, 2009 12:25 PM (GkYyh)
306
Of course not. But normally compensation should be linked to success and not failure...i.e. salesmen are paid commission on sales, not on the number of cold calls they made.
These people were contracted to get the bad junk off of AIG's balance sheet. So far, they have taken it down from $2.7 trillion to $1.6 trillion. They were contracted to recieve $165 million, less than a tenth of a percent.
So if this is evil government at work it has to be the most efficient government program in the history of the Republic.
And the government decided to come in after the fact and break the contract and take their pay. You still feel good about that?
These people were contracted to get the bad junk off of AIG's balance sheet. So far, they have taken it down from $2.7 trillion to $1.6 trillion. They were contracted to recieve $165 million, less than a tenth of a percent.
So if this is evil government at work it has to be the most efficient government program in the history of the Republic.
And the government decided to come in after the fact and break the contract and take their pay. You still feel good about that?
Posted by: JackStraw at March 25, 2009 12:27 PM (VW9/y)
307
When they finally write "the book" on this it will look like the encyclopedia britannica that used to be in the public library and you will need ten flow charts to follow all the incestuous intertwined bull crap.
Posted by: muffy at March 25, 2009 12:27 PM (zplc6)
308
"There is no debate that if we allow AIG to implode, it will take down much of the worldwide financial community."
Too big to fail is a myth.
See my post above yours.
Bush and Paulson were Oligarchs, not marxists.
I'm in agreement wind-downshould occur, but not in the hands of the same looters who caused this abortion. You list the consequences as if any of them are avoidable. What's most disturbing is the willigness of the Govt. to lose all faith of the public in allowing corruption to oversee its own execution. Conservatorship would leave the sober risk-takers to pick up the pieces. If you appreciated that chart you'd pay special attention to the fact that wind-down after the GD was unavoidable.
It's only a matter of how much we're going to allow stolen from taxpayers until we face the reality many of these companies cannot exist in the future.
Too big to fail is a myth.
See my post above yours.
Bush and Paulson were Oligarchs, not marxists.
I'm in agreement wind-downshould occur, but not in the hands of the same looters who caused this abortion. You list the consequences as if any of them are avoidable. What's most disturbing is the willigness of the Govt. to lose all faith of the public in allowing corruption to oversee its own execution. Conservatorship would leave the sober risk-takers to pick up the pieces. If you appreciated that chart you'd pay special attention to the fact that wind-down after the GD was unavoidable.
It's only a matter of how much we're going to allow stolen from taxpayers until we face the reality many of these companies cannot exist in the future.
Posted by: ether at March 25, 2009 12:27 PM (D+Ibp)
309
Bet Caroline is taking elocution lessons so she can challenge Cuomo. Should be fascinating expecially since she has some strong women mentors who favor pantsuits.
Posted by: muffy at March 25, 2009 12:29 PM (zplc6)
310
Let me again try to explain why people are pissed off about this situation, and the proper solution.
I have customers in the furniture business who had 60% drops in business this year. They didn't buy any CDO's or MBS's or borrow recklessly. They are going out of business.
Now, no one is giving them retention bonuses to keep things running while their inventory gets liquidated...
Now maybe they get new ownership who decides who should stay and who should go...but its that guy's money, so what do I care?
Now, when its the taxpayer's money and its not clear who is a "good guy" and who is "bad guy" then maybe bringing in a whole new team would be the most equitable way for the taxpayer.
But seriously, these guys can find jobs so easily that they have to have retention bonuses? Really? Then seems to me the systemic risk must not be so high of there are ample finance jobs to hire everyone back....
I have customers in the furniture business who had 60% drops in business this year. They didn't buy any CDO's or MBS's or borrow recklessly. They are going out of business.
Now, no one is giving them retention bonuses to keep things running while their inventory gets liquidated...
Now maybe they get new ownership who decides who should stay and who should go...but its that guy's money, so what do I care?
Now, when its the taxpayer's money and its not clear who is a "good guy" and who is "bad guy" then maybe bringing in a whole new team would be the most equitable way for the taxpayer.
But seriously, these guys can find jobs so easily that they have to have retention bonuses? Really? Then seems to me the systemic risk must not be so high of there are ample finance jobs to hire everyone back....
Posted by: Harun at March 25, 2009 12:30 PM (vZJNO)
311
That analogy doesn’t hold up. Let’s say you work for a company in division A that makes wigits. Division A is highly profitable making tons of money for the company.
Meanwhile Division B makes turdwhistles which some people currently find appealing. The head of Division B starts a new program that makes turdwhistles by the ton. They invest millions in this process and are making tons of them.
Meanwhile the public wises up and quits buying turdwhistles. The company is out millions and has tons of worthless turdwhistles. Creditors want their money. The head of Division B leaves the company in disgrace and you have an offer at another company. The head of the company offers you a retention bonus to stay for year and help clean up Div B. You will not be paid ANY salary, only the bonus at the end of the year. You turn down the offer at another company and stay.
Should you give up your bonus because the public is outraged at the ton of turdwhistles?
Meanwhile Division B makes turdwhistles which some people currently find appealing. The head of Division B starts a new program that makes turdwhistles by the ton. They invest millions in this process and are making tons of them.
Meanwhile the public wises up and quits buying turdwhistles. The company is out millions and has tons of worthless turdwhistles. Creditors want their money. The head of Division B leaves the company in disgrace and you have an offer at another company. The head of the company offers you a retention bonus to stay for year and help clean up Div B. You will not be paid ANY salary, only the bonus at the end of the year. You turn down the offer at another company and stay.
Should you give up your bonus because the public is outraged at the ton of turdwhistles?
Posted by: Vic at March 25, 2009 12:30 PM (f6os6)
312
You know, when you invested in those "instruments" you were told they were risky. You weren't told they were triple A rated, MBIA insured. You knew what you were getting into. So, there was a chance you could lose it all. So, if it wasn't that all the foreigners were invested in thsi stuff and HAD to be paid back their money would they have let Americans go suck an egg?
Posted by: muffy at March 25, 2009 12:31 PM (zplc6)
313
Too big to fail is a myth.
Well then we are just going to have to agree to disagree on the basic assumption behind the whole process.
Well then we are just going to have to agree to disagree on the basic assumption behind the whole process.
Posted by: JackStraw at March 25, 2009 12:31 PM (VW9/y)
314
Jazz:
Sigh. Kids these days, with their weird hair and rock music and their make-out parties.
Let me adjust the onion on my belt and tell you about the Great Underwear Shortage of '77.
Sigh. Kids these days, with their weird hair and rock music and their make-out parties.
Let me adjust the onion on my belt and tell you about the Great Underwear Shortage of '77.
Posted by: Monty at March 25, 2009 12:32 PM (/0a60)
315
Vic, somewhere I posted where there is a poll asking that exact question and surprisingly most people wouldn't give it back.
Posted by: muffy at March 25, 2009 12:32 PM (zplc6)
316
They didn't buy any CDO's or MBS's or borrow recklessly.
If they had brokerage accounts, mutual fund accounts, pension plans, or IRAs, then: yes they did buy such instruments, and are now feeling the pain therefrom.
If they had brokerage accounts, mutual fund accounts, pension plans, or IRAs, then: yes they did buy such instruments, and are now feeling the pain therefrom.
Posted by: Monty at March 25, 2009 12:33 PM (/0a60)
317
But this raises two critical questions. The first is why $12.9 billion of taxpayer money went from AIG to Goldman..
Actually it raises a few more and I'm surprised that a writer at Slate would miss an opportunity to take another shot at the Bush administration. Why? Bush's last Treasury Secretary, Paulson, was a chief executive of .... Goldman Sachs.
Yes, standard disclaimers; speculation, no proof, but I'll be damned that Goldman Sachs still stands through government hand-holding and Lehman was obliterated and there is no connection to Paulson's background.
There's a lot more of this invidious, oddly-timed government intervention than we know about now, but I fail to see how breaking contracts and the rule of law is going to help us recover.
Actually it raises a few more and I'm surprised that a writer at Slate would miss an opportunity to take another shot at the Bush administration. Why? Bush's last Treasury Secretary, Paulson, was a chief executive of .... Goldman Sachs.
Yes, standard disclaimers; speculation, no proof, but I'll be damned that Goldman Sachs still stands through government hand-holding and Lehman was obliterated and there is no connection to Paulson's background.
There's a lot more of this invidious, oddly-timed government intervention than we know about now, but I fail to see how breaking contracts and the rule of law is going to help us recover.
Posted by: Chimney Sweep #8 at March 25, 2009 12:34 PM (kIjlp)
318
"These people were contracted to get the bad junk off of AIG's balance sheet. So far, they have taken it down from $2.7 trillion to $1.6 trillion. They were contracted to recieve $165 million, less than a tenth of a percent."
Finally, a metric. Good. Now when will it be done?
"And the government decided to come in after the fact and break the contract and take their pay. You still feel good about that?"
I don't want to break the contract. I just want the government to not reward failure. Please, pay these people their money. But when will AIG be done?
Finally, a metric. Good. Now when will it be done?
"And the government decided to come in after the fact and break the contract and take their pay. You still feel good about that?"
I don't want to break the contract. I just want the government to not reward failure. Please, pay these people their money. But when will AIG be done?
Posted by: Harun at March 25, 2009 12:34 PM (vZJNO)
319
And Jackstraw:
No comment on the 93% ehh?
I posted the source.
PPIP'n right in taxpayer faces with the Obama plan.
No comment on the 93% ehh?
I posted the source.
PPIP'n right in taxpayer faces with the Obama plan.
Posted by: ether at March 25, 2009 12:34 PM (D+Ibp)
320
So some guy on Power Lunch said he is going to invest braodly cause the government is telling you that you can't lose. So isn't that what happened with the instruments?
I always think of that meeting in Miss Nancy's office where they all emerged totally pale and white like they had seen a ghost. They then went into full panic mode and have been there ever since. I also remember how Bush didn't come right out and talk about this, it always looked like he had to be coaxed. Wonder what was said in that meeting that started this entire mess going in the wrong direction.
I always think of that meeting in Miss Nancy's office where they all emerged totally pale and white like they had seen a ghost. They then went into full panic mode and have been there ever since. I also remember how Bush didn't come right out and talk about this, it always looked like he had to be coaxed. Wonder what was said in that meeting that started this entire mess going in the wrong direction.
Posted by: muffy at March 25, 2009 12:35 PM (zplc6)
321
"That analogy doesn’t hold up. Let’s say you work for a company in division A that makes wigits. Division A is highly profitable making tons of money for the company."
So, this division of AIG was profitable, LOL?
Hey, if they have a job offer somewhere else, TAKE IT AND LEAVE. That is the responsible course of action.
So, this division of AIG was profitable, LOL?
Hey, if they have a job offer somewhere else, TAKE IT AND LEAVE. That is the responsible course of action.
Posted by: Harun at March 25, 2009 12:36 PM (vZJNO)
322
Now, no one is giving them retention bonuses to keep things running while their inventory gets liquidated...
Did they have a fucking contract that called for them to get bonuses?!
The government shouldn't bail out private industry but to compound that mistake with allowing theft by government fiat is assanine and dangerous.
Couple it with the new ability for judges to simply change the basis of homeloans and we are on the fast track to a "fairness" society of beaurocrats ruling our lives.
Did they have a fucking contract that called for them to get bonuses?!
The government shouldn't bail out private industry but to compound that mistake with allowing theft by government fiat is assanine and dangerous.
Couple it with the new ability for judges to simply change the basis of homeloans and we are on the fast track to a "fairness" society of beaurocrats ruling our lives.
Posted by: kidney, currently shuddering at the consequences at March 25, 2009 12:36 PM (FgUFX)
323
Jackstraw:
Citi and BofA buying more shit-pile to sell to PPIP above market:
http://tinyurl.com/d9yckv
"
As Treasury Secretary Tim Geithner orchestrated a plan to help the nation's largest banks purge themselves of toxic mortgage assets, Citigroup and Bank of America have been aggressively scooping up those same securities in the secondary market, sources told The Post.
Both Citi and BofA each have received $45 billion in federal rescue cash meant to help prop up the economy and jumpstart the housing market.
But the banks' purchase of so-called AAA-rated mortgage-backed securities, including some that use alt-A and option ARM as collateral, is raising eyebrows among even the most seasoned traders. Alt-A and option ARM loans have widely been seen as the next mortgage type to see increases in defaults.
One Wall Street trader told The Post that what's been most puzzling about the purchases is how aggressive both banks have been in their buying, sometimes paying higher prices than competing bidders are willing to pay.
Recently, securities rated AAA have changed hands for roughly 30 cents on the dollar, and most of the buyers have been hedge funds acting opportunistically on a bet that prices will rise over time. However, sources said Citi and BofA have trumped those bids."
Corruption is breeding because we refuse to kill the TOO BIG ZOMBIES...
Citi and BofA buying more shit-pile to sell to PPIP above market:
http://tinyurl.com/d9yckv
"
As Treasury Secretary Tim Geithner orchestrated a plan to help the nation's largest banks purge themselves of toxic mortgage assets, Citigroup and Bank of America have been aggressively scooping up those same securities in the secondary market, sources told The Post.
Both Citi and BofA each have received $45 billion in federal rescue cash meant to help prop up the economy and jumpstart the housing market.
But the banks' purchase of so-called AAA-rated mortgage-backed securities, including some that use alt-A and option ARM as collateral, is raising eyebrows among even the most seasoned traders. Alt-A and option ARM loans have widely been seen as the next mortgage type to see increases in defaults.
One Wall Street trader told The Post that what's been most puzzling about the purchases is how aggressive both banks have been in their buying, sometimes paying higher prices than competing bidders are willing to pay.
Recently, securities rated AAA have changed hands for roughly 30 cents on the dollar, and most of the buyers have been hedge funds acting opportunistically on a bet that prices will rise over time. However, sources said Citi and BofA have trumped those bids."
Corruption is breeding because we refuse to kill the TOO BIG ZOMBIES...
Posted by: ether at March 25, 2009 12:39 PM (D+Ibp)
324
goodnight everyone, a good discussion. its a complicated topic...not against cleaning up after a huge party, but don't want to host another one soon.
Posted by: Harun at March 25, 2009 12:39 PM (vZJNO)
325
"Did they have a fucking contract that called for them to get bonuses?!"
I have repeatedly said...respect the contracts and PAY THE BONUSES.
Then bring in the new team. Which should have been done before, but maybe the timing was off.
If you are a 90% government owned entity and keep receiving massive injections of money from the taxpayers. don't expect future bonuses.
I have repeatedly said...respect the contracts and PAY THE BONUSES.
Then bring in the new team. Which should have been done before, but maybe the timing was off.
If you are a 90% government owned entity and keep receiving massive injections of money from the taxpayers. don't expect future bonuses.
Posted by: Harun at March 25, 2009 12:43 PM (vZJNO)
326
I came to this post late in the day. Laura -- great post here. And I agree with those who believe this class warfare is nonsense. A contract is a contract. The government has no right to take that away from people. Most of the anger at the employees here is due to petty jealousy and bitterness. Very slippery slope all this. If you take AIG out of the equation, does it make it any better that the government can play the role of thief and take promised money away from employees??!! Everyone has a right to become as rich as he/she wants in this country. Now we are going to be penalized for that. And on a separate note -- Flenser, I like you, but you were rather harsh to Mr. Jack Straw earlier in this thread.
Posted by: Sassypants at March 25, 2009 12:43 PM (mK16d)
327
Finally, a metric. Good. Now when will it be done?
Dude, come on. When is the recession going to end. Everyone is trying to get this done as quickly as possible. They are incented to. But a lot of dominoes have to fall.
No comment on the 93% ehh?
missed it. Which comment?
You know, when you invested in those "instruments" you were told they were risky. You weren't told they were triple A rated, MBIA insured.
Not true. This is one of the biggest problems in the whole system and one not focused on much.
Even after downgrading almost 10,000 subprime-mortgage bonds, Standard Poor's and Moody's Investors Service haven't cut the ones that matter most: AAA securities that are the mainstays of bank and insurance company investments.
None of the 80 AAA securities in ABX indexes that track subprime bonds meet the criteria SP had even before it toughened ratings standards in February, according to data compiled by Bloomberg. A bond sold by Deutsche Bank AG in May 2006 is AAA at both companies even though 43 percent of the underlying mortgages are delinquent.
http://tinyurl.com/c872be
The underlying assumption on much of the debt that the cds were based on was that they had been vetted and approved by outside rating agencies and rated AAA. Should the AIG's of the world been more dubious? Probably. But who knew that Moody's and SP weren't doing their jobs in a systematic way?
Dude, come on. When is the recession going to end. Everyone is trying to get this done as quickly as possible. They are incented to. But a lot of dominoes have to fall.
No comment on the 93% ehh?
missed it. Which comment?
You know, when you invested in those "instruments" you were told they were risky. You weren't told they were triple A rated, MBIA insured.
Not true. This is one of the biggest problems in the whole system and one not focused on much.
Even after downgrading almost 10,000 subprime-mortgage bonds, Standard Poor's and Moody's Investors Service haven't cut the ones that matter most: AAA securities that are the mainstays of bank and insurance company investments.
None of the 80 AAA securities in ABX indexes that track subprime bonds meet the criteria SP had even before it toughened ratings standards in February, according to data compiled by Bloomberg. A bond sold by Deutsche Bank AG in May 2006 is AAA at both companies even though 43 percent of the underlying mortgages are delinquent.
http://tinyurl.com/c872be
The underlying assumption on much of the debt that the cds were based on was that they had been vetted and approved by outside rating agencies and rated AAA. Should the AIG's of the world been more dubious? Probably. But who knew that Moody's and SP weren't doing their jobs in a systematic way?
Posted by: JackStraw at March 25, 2009 12:44 PM (VW9/y)
328
and my final thought....READ ETHER.
How can any conservative truly think government checks to business or individuals will lead to good incentives?
How can any conservative truly think government checks to business or individuals will lead to good incentives?
Posted by: Harun at March 25, 2009 12:44 PM (vZJNO)
329
I'm beginning to wonder why the bonuses were allowed if they were such a big deal, and why the present outrage from those that allowed them.
I can only come up with the notion that this somehow sets precedent for the issue of bills of attainder (and due process and property rightsquestioning) later down the road...and a good deal of political ass covering, but mostly the former I'm afraid.
My greatest fear is for the Constitution (in particular attacks on the Bill of Rights) -- bankruptcy, depression, inflation; all those can eventually be overcome (they aren't the end of the world). Loss of the founding priniciples, those I don't believe we can survive, at least not as we would like to.
I can only come up with the notion that this somehow sets precedent for the issue of bills of attainder (and due process and property rightsquestioning) later down the road...and a good deal of political ass covering, but mostly the former I'm afraid.
My greatest fear is for the Constitution (in particular attacks on the Bill of Rights) -- bankruptcy, depression, inflation; all those can eventually be overcome (they aren't the end of the world). Loss of the founding priniciples, those I don't believe we can survive, at least not as we would like to.
Posted by: unknown jane at March 25, 2009 12:45 PM (EpmMs)
330
AIG paid money to GS for the same reason they paid it to other firms; they owed this money as part of the insurance contract they had. That is WHY they were bailed out. They had insurance contracts all over including CHINA. If you were to truly track it all down I am sure you will find that China got some of that money.
Posted by: Vic at March 25, 2009 12:46 PM (f6os6)
331
"Dude, come on. When is the recession going to end. Everyone is trying to get this done as quickly as possible. They are incented to. But a lot of dominoes have to..."
Show me the incentives for them not to simply drag out their job. I am an open minded individual and that stat made me a happier person. But incentives do matter, and retention bonuses imply making sure the solution takes as long as it takes to achieve the retention bonus.
Its a financial recession. I don't think they have so many job offers as they imply....my god if we don't pay them millions they will go to Singapore...LOL...dude in Singapore I can hire Chinese MBA's cheaper than the guys from AIG.
and no, not everyone is wanting the recession to end as quickly as possible, otherwise we wouldn';t be trying to prop up housing.
Show me the incentives for them not to simply drag out their job. I am an open minded individual and that stat made me a happier person. But incentives do matter, and retention bonuses imply making sure the solution takes as long as it takes to achieve the retention bonus.
Its a financial recession. I don't think they have so many job offers as they imply....my god if we don't pay them millions they will go to Singapore...LOL...dude in Singapore I can hire Chinese MBA's cheaper than the guys from AIG.
and no, not everyone is wanting the recession to end as quickly as possible, otherwise we wouldn';t be trying to prop up housing.
Posted by: Harun at March 25, 2009 12:50 PM (vZJNO)
332
http://tinyurl.com/d4b4nf
Sample Investment Under the Legacy Loans Program
Step 1: If a bank has a pool of residential mortgages with $100 face value that it is seeking to divest, the bank would approach the FDIC. Step 2: The FDIC would determine, according to the above process, that they would be willing to leverage the pool at a 6-to-1 debt-to-equity ratio. Step 3: The pool would then be auctioned by the FDIC, with several private sector bidders submitting bids. The highest bid from the private sector – in this example, $84 – would be the winner and would form a Public-Private Investment Fund to purchase the pool of mortgages. Step 4: Of this $84 purchase price, the FDIC would provide guarantees for $72 of financing, leaving $12 of equity. Step 5: The Treasury would then provide 50% of the equity funding required on a side-by-side basis with the investor. In this example, Treasury would invest approximately $6, with the private investor contributing $6. Step 6: The private investor would then manage the servicing of the asset pool and the timing of its disposition on an ongoing basis – using asset managers approved and subject to oversight by the FDIC.
"The example shows that taxpayers are on the hook for $78 out of every $84, in other words 93%, slightly better than the 97% number floating around yesterday."
Sample Investment Under the Legacy Loans Program
Step 1: If a bank has a pool of residential mortgages with $100 face value that it is seeking to divest, the bank would approach the FDIC. Step 2: The FDIC would determine, according to the above process, that they would be willing to leverage the pool at a 6-to-1 debt-to-equity ratio. Step 3: The pool would then be auctioned by the FDIC, with several private sector bidders submitting bids. The highest bid from the private sector – in this example, $84 – would be the winner and would form a Public-Private Investment Fund to purchase the pool of mortgages. Step 4: Of this $84 purchase price, the FDIC would provide guarantees for $72 of financing, leaving $12 of equity. Step 5: The Treasury would then provide 50% of the equity funding required on a side-by-side basis with the investor. In this example, Treasury would invest approximately $6, with the private investor contributing $6. Step 6: The private investor would then manage the servicing of the asset pool and the timing of its disposition on an ongoing basis – using asset managers approved and subject to oversight by the FDIC.
"The example shows that taxpayers are on the hook for $78 out of every $84, in other words 93%, slightly better than the 97% number floating around yesterday."
Posted by: ether at March 25, 2009 12:52 PM (D+Ibp)
333
now, its really nighty night.
Jack Straw, thanks for those figures...I will sleep better knowing that some progress is being made...
no joke.
Jack Straw, thanks for those figures...I will sleep better knowing that some progress is being made...
no joke.
Posted by: Harun at March 25, 2009 12:53 PM (vZJNO)
334
@332 unknown jane
I'm beginning to wonder why the bonuses were allowed if they were such
a big deal, and why the present outrage from those that allowed them.
It's a diversion. The left is looting the treasury in a smash-and-grab, and TOTUS and his minions will do anything that directs attention elsewhere.
My estimation: Everyone knew the bonuses were coming. Dodd even added language to legislation to protect these bonuses. But TOTUS needed a firestorm to get peoples' minds off of the monumentally shitty job that he and Tax Cheat Timmaaaah are doing, so they introduced the "performance bonus" meme through the morning strategy call between EOP and the MSM.
Plenty on the right took the bait.
For the record, I am all for class warfare. There is an underclass of lazy, good-for-nothing, shiftless pieces of shit whose envy and willingness to use the power of government to feed that envy know no bound. They exist in every stratum of our society. They are my enemies.
@332 unknown jane
I'm beginning to wonder why the bonuses were allowed if they were such
a big deal, and why the present outrage from those that allowed them.
It's a diversion. The left is looting the treasury in a smash-and-grab, and TOTUS and his minions will do anything that directs attention elsewhere.
My estimation: Everyone knew the bonuses were coming. Dodd even added language to legislation to protect these bonuses. But TOTUS needed a firestorm to get peoples' minds off of the monumentally shitty job that he and Tax Cheat Timmaaaah are doing, so they introduced the "performance bonus" meme through the morning strategy call between EOP and the MSM.
Plenty on the right took the bait.
For the record, I am all for class warfare. There is an underclass of lazy, good-for-nothing, shiftless pieces of shit whose envy and willingness to use the power of government to feed that envy know no bound. They exist in every stratum of our society. They are my enemies.
Posted by: MikeO at March 25, 2009 12:55 PM (4sSHg)
335
Thank you Jazz. My favorite (and I thought it up) line is "Thank God life is unfair, if it was fair, I would have been dead long ago".
And Flenser/ether..get off that computer, the fucking drive- thru is getting backed up. You assholes.
And Flenser/ether..get off that computer, the fucking drive- thru is getting backed up. You assholes.
Posted by: hutch1200 at March 25, 2009 12:57 PM (3N0/S)
336
Chin up, LauraW.
Yes, it's a travesty. But this man has brains, motivation and honor. Our country is full of people like that, and they find a way to endure short-term and thwart evil long-term. We're Americans; it's what we do.
Yes, it's a travesty. But this man has brains, motivation and honor. Our country is full of people like that, and they find a way to endure short-term and thwart evil long-term. We're Americans; it's what we do.
Posted by: FireHorse at March 25, 2009 01:08 PM (5KNeJ)
337
"The example shows that taxpayers are on the hook for $78 out of every $84, in other words 93%, slightly better than the 97% number floating around yesterday."
So you are saying that the FDIC is taxpayer money? You might want to rethink that one.
So you are saying that the FDIC is taxpayer money? You might want to rethink that one.
Posted by: JackStraw at March 25, 2009 01:09 PM (VW9/y)
338
Another example of a grand turd is Andrew the ****
son of a **** Cuomo. His job is Attorney General of the State of New
York. He has put both of his disgusting feet in this witch hunt to the
detriment of the state whose payroll he's on. If these fucking
employees don't get paid NY State loses MILLIONS upon MILLIONS of tax
revenue. Badly needed tax revenue. This fucking cockholster is
fucking over the state that pays his salary, injecting himself into a
federal matter that he has no standing on and wrongly vilifying utterly
innocent employees who were promised paychecks in their rightfully and
lawfully accepted contracts. He is the lowest of the low, so far, and
is doing this because he sees that the current governor is a weak
incompetent twat who he can pick off in the primary. I've never
campaigned for anyone before but I may well campaign for the corpse of
Richard Nixon if we could get it to run against this turd.
son of a **** Cuomo. His job is Attorney General of the State of New
York. He has put both of his disgusting feet in this witch hunt to the
detriment of the state whose payroll he's on. If these fucking
employees don't get paid NY State loses MILLIONS upon MILLIONS of tax
revenue. Badly needed tax revenue. This fucking cockholster is
fucking over the state that pays his salary, injecting himself into a
federal matter that he has no standing on and wrongly vilifying utterly
innocent employees who were promised paychecks in their rightfully and
lawfully accepted contracts. He is the lowest of the low, so far, and
is doing this because he sees that the current governor is a weak
incompetent twat who he can pick off in the primary. I've never
campaigned for anyone before but I may well campaign for the corpse of
Richard Nixon if we could get it to run against this turd.
Posted by: commander0 at March 25, 2009 01:10 PM (V8K0a)
339
Worse - FDIC is depositor money.
Posted by: brian at March 25, 2009 01:11 PM (cPWTF)
340
commander0:
You can say "fuck" and "shit" and "asshole" on this blog. In fact, we encourage it. It keeps the wussies out.
You can say "fuck" and "shit" and "asshole" on this blog. In fact, we encourage it. It keeps the wussies out.
Posted by: Monty at March 25, 2009 01:12 PM (/0a60)
341
On his conference call to journalists, Cuomo stated that most of these people had nothing to do with blowing up AIGFP- supporting this guy's story
Which of course begs the question of why they were being asked to give the money back.
I guess it wasn't blackmail because Cuomo wasn't asking that the bonuses be paid directly to him. But the fact that he'd consider releasing names in spite of death threats unless the non-offenders coughed up money they were paid makes me wonder why he's the state's AG. I mean, if I'd done that, I'd probably be under the jail now.
Which of course begs the question of why they were being asked to give the money back.
I guess it wasn't blackmail because Cuomo wasn't asking that the bonuses be paid directly to him. But the fact that he'd consider releasing names in spite of death threats unless the non-offenders coughed up money they were paid makes me wonder why he's the state's AG. I mean, if I'd done that, I'd probably be under the jail now.
Posted by: Todd, the Sofa King at March 25, 2009 01:13 PM (hmHqH)
342
Worse - FDIC is depositor money.
nope.
nope.
Posted by: JackStraw at March 25, 2009 01:16 PM (VW9/y)
343
Jack - where do you think the banks get the money from to pay the FDIC premiums?
Duh - they get it from us schlubs who deposit it.
Duh - they get it from us schlubs who deposit it.
Posted by: brian at March 25, 2009 01:20 PM (cPWTF)
344
So to sum up: DeSantis is a hero, an irreplaceable genius uniquely genetically endowed to reconstitute AIG to get us our bailout money back, besieged by busloads of murderous gawkers, and upon his fate rests theviability ofeverycontract ever written. Hisresignation was apublicity martyrdom masterstroke that we are all required to rally to and defend. Meanwhile, those of us who would point out that his plaints are unseemly, and that nobody loves a whiny quitter,we critics are all class-warriors who never produced anything of value in our lives, shiftess ACORN layabouts, and mindless O-bots whipped up into a wealth-destroying populist storm.
Posted by: gp at March 25, 2009 01:22 PM (B9rV2)
345
Jack - where do you think the banks get the money from to pay the FDIC premiums?Duh - they get it from us schlubs who deposit it.
I see. So banks don't make money? There are no profits from which to take the fees they use to fund the FDIC? That's your belief that our entire financial system is a giant ponzi scheme?
Ok.
I see. So banks don't make money? There are no profits from which to take the fees they use to fund the FDIC? That's your belief that our entire financial system is a giant ponzi scheme?
Ok.
Posted by: JackStraw at March 25, 2009 01:23 PM (VW9/y)
346
Perhaps Jake DeSantis should sue Barack Obama, Tim Geithner, Speaker Pelosi, NY AG, CT AG and AIG for harassment being that he had to work in a “hostile environment”.
Posted by: Neo at March 25, 2009 01:27 PM (Yozw9)
347
Jack Straw:
Where have you been, the FDIC is insolvent too...
http://tinyurl.com/ac2edf
"WASHINGTON -- Senate Banking Committee Chairman Christopher Dodd is moving to allow the Federal Deposit Insurance Corp. to temporarily borrow as much as $500 billion from the Treasury Department.
The Connecticut Democrat's effort -- which comes in response to urging from FDIC Chairman Sheila Bair, Federal Reserve Chairman Ben Bernanke and Treasury Secretary Timothy Geithner -- would give the FDIC access to more money to rebuild its fund that insures consumers' deposits, which have been hard hit by a string of bank failures."
They plan on using the FDIC as a taxpayer funded slush-fund for PPIP.
Yawn.
Where have you been, the FDIC is insolvent too...
http://tinyurl.com/ac2edf
"WASHINGTON -- Senate Banking Committee Chairman Christopher Dodd is moving to allow the Federal Deposit Insurance Corp. to temporarily borrow as much as $500 billion from the Treasury Department.
The Connecticut Democrat's effort -- which comes in response to urging from FDIC Chairman Sheila Bair, Federal Reserve Chairman Ben Bernanke and Treasury Secretary Timothy Geithner -- would give the FDIC access to more money to rebuild its fund that insures consumers' deposits, which have been hard hit by a string of bank failures."
They plan on using the FDIC as a taxpayer funded slush-fund for PPIP.
Yawn.
Posted by: ether at March 25, 2009 01:49 PM (D+Ibp)
348
"That's your belief that our entire financial system is a giant ponzi scheme?"
Yes. Go do some research on the size of the shadow-banking system.
We can go at this all day if you like.
Remember, the charrt I posted was only total market credit debt to GDP, it didn't even include "assets" like CDS, where estimates run from anywhere from $60-170 Trillion for the large banks.
Time to count the peanuts in the shit-pile.
Yes. Go do some research on the size of the shadow-banking system.
We can go at this all day if you like.
Remember, the charrt I posted was only total market credit debt to GDP, it didn't even include "assets" like CDS, where estimates run from anywhere from $60-170 Trillion for the large banks.
Time to count the peanuts in the shit-pile.
Posted by: ether at March 25, 2009 01:52 PM (D+Ibp)
349
Have you considered changing your name to "JackStrawMan"?
Seriously. The bank doesn't HAVE profits if they don't get deposits. So sure, you can say it comes from their profits. You can also say that they're borrowing it against their deposits.
Either way, it's not taxpayer money (yet), it's either our money, or money that we aren't getting in interest because they are paying it to the FDIC.
Seriously. The bank doesn't HAVE profits if they don't get deposits. So sure, you can say it comes from their profits. You can also say that they're borrowing it against their deposits.
Either way, it's not taxpayer money (yet), it's either our money, or money that we aren't getting in interest because they are paying it to the FDIC.
Posted by: brian at March 25, 2009 01:55 PM (cPWTF)
350
Where have you been, the FDIC is insolvent too...
Well not yet but close. And do you know why? Because for the last 5 years congress refused to allow the FDIC to impose the fees on the banks and so the fund didn't grow. Congress. Again.
Bair said yesterday that the agency's failure to collect premiums from most banks "was surprising to me and of concern." As a Treasury Department official in 2001, she said, she testified on Capitol Hill about the need to impose the fees, but nothing happened. Congress did not grant the authority for the fees until 2006, just weeks before Bair took over the FDIC. She then used that authority to impose the fees over the objections of some within the banking industry
http://tinyurl.com/dbhsuf
And if and when the FDIC does borrow the money from Treasury, who do you think is on the hook to pay it off? Hint. Starts with Band ends with anks.
And if there is still any doubt as to where banks get the premiums to pay their FDIC fees, this might help.
"Banks pay [the FDIC premiums] right off their bottom line, so that would have an impact on their earnings," said Camden Fine, president and CEO of the Independent Community Bankers of America, which represents over 5,000 local and community banks.
http://tinyurl.com/ddxs2u
You see, it's illegal for banks to use depositor insurance to pay for FDIC premiums.
So, you about ready walk back the 93% taxpayer crap? Cause, ya know, it's wrong.
This schooling you spoke of, when does it begin?
Well not yet but close. And do you know why? Because for the last 5 years congress refused to allow the FDIC to impose the fees on the banks and so the fund didn't grow. Congress. Again.
Bair said yesterday that the agency's failure to collect premiums from most banks "was surprising to me and of concern." As a Treasury Department official in 2001, she said, she testified on Capitol Hill about the need to impose the fees, but nothing happened. Congress did not grant the authority for the fees until 2006, just weeks before Bair took over the FDIC. She then used that authority to impose the fees over the objections of some within the banking industry
http://tinyurl.com/dbhsuf
And if and when the FDIC does borrow the money from Treasury, who do you think is on the hook to pay it off? Hint. Starts with Band ends with anks.
And if there is still any doubt as to where banks get the premiums to pay their FDIC fees, this might help.
"Banks pay [the FDIC premiums] right off their bottom line, so that would have an impact on their earnings," said Camden Fine, president and CEO of the Independent Community Bankers of America, which represents over 5,000 local and community banks.
http://tinyurl.com/ddxs2u
You see, it's illegal for banks to use depositor insurance to pay for FDIC premiums.
So, you about ready walk back the 93% taxpayer crap? Cause, ya know, it's wrong.
This schooling you spoke of, when does it begin?
Posted by: JackStraw at March 25, 2009 02:00 PM (VW9/y)
351
Ether -
You keep saying that. What you don't seem to realize is THERE IS NO SHIT PILE.
These CDSs were created out of whole cloth. There wasn't anything backing them. No food in == no shit out.
And that's why we aren't seeing a resolution here. That money NEVER FUCKING EXISTED. Just like Madoff didn't lose 60 billion dollars.
Here's an allegory of what happened:
Joe bought a piece of property for $1,000.
He sells it to his friend for $2,000.
He buys it back for $3,000.
This goes on for a while, until the property is "worth" $100,000.
Joe then goes and gets an insurance policy on the property for $100,000.
AIG was writing that kind of insurance. They weren't looking at the REAL value of the property ($1,000), they were looking at someone's made up valuation of that property.
And they're on the hook not for $1,000, but $100,000.
I don't know who made money here, but it wasn't Joe, who couldn't collect on his policy because AIG went insolvent. Remember, AIG was selling derivatives on these insurance policies too, based on Joe not making a claim.
I know that it's probably a shitty explanation, but it's all I got.
A lot of people put a lot of money into a system when they were promised returns that could not ever materialize, and when that truth hit the fan, all that money just disappeared. So while we're talking about a loss of a trillion dollars, it's really much smaller than that because there were never any gains realized to make the initial investments worth what these people THINK they lost.
Just like the Madoff investors. They THINK they lost a bunch more than they put in, but there were never any gains for them, so they just lost the initial investment. Everything else they claim to have lost is opportunity cost from not having put the money in a real invesment instead of a criminal enterprise.
You keep saying that. What you don't seem to realize is THERE IS NO SHIT PILE.
These CDSs were created out of whole cloth. There wasn't anything backing them. No food in == no shit out.
And that's why we aren't seeing a resolution here. That money NEVER FUCKING EXISTED. Just like Madoff didn't lose 60 billion dollars.
Here's an allegory of what happened:
Joe bought a piece of property for $1,000.
He sells it to his friend for $2,000.
He buys it back for $3,000.
This goes on for a while, until the property is "worth" $100,000.
Joe then goes and gets an insurance policy on the property for $100,000.
AIG was writing that kind of insurance. They weren't looking at the REAL value of the property ($1,000), they were looking at someone's made up valuation of that property.
And they're on the hook not for $1,000, but $100,000.
I don't know who made money here, but it wasn't Joe, who couldn't collect on his policy because AIG went insolvent. Remember, AIG was selling derivatives on these insurance policies too, based on Joe not making a claim.
I know that it's probably a shitty explanation, but it's all I got.
A lot of people put a lot of money into a system when they were promised returns that could not ever materialize, and when that truth hit the fan, all that money just disappeared. So while we're talking about a loss of a trillion dollars, it's really much smaller than that because there were never any gains realized to make the initial investments worth what these people THINK they lost.
Just like the Madoff investors. They THINK they lost a bunch more than they put in, but there were never any gains for them, so they just lost the initial investment. Everything else they claim to have lost is opportunity cost from not having put the money in a real invesment instead of a criminal enterprise.
Posted by: brian at March 25, 2009 02:02 PM (cPWTF)
352
hutch1200: My favorite (and I thought it up) line is "Thank God life is unfair, if it was fair, I would have been dead long ago".
Ain't that the truth! For me, several times over. Brilliant insight - and not the sarcastic "brilliant" of our British cousins, either. Really brilliant.
Monty, you got a thing about vampires?
Ain't that the truth! For me, several times over. Brilliant insight - and not the sarcastic "brilliant" of our British cousins, either. Really brilliant.
Monty, you got a thing about vampires?
Posted by: Jazz at March 25, 2009 02:03 PM (hnq5i)
353
"Well not yet but close. And do you know why? Because for the last 5 years congress refused to allow the FDIC to impose the fees on the banks and so the fund didn't grow. Congress. Again."
This has nothing to do with the fact it's insolvent.
"And if and when the FDIC does borrow the money from Treasury, who do you think is on the hook to pay it off? Hint. Starts with Band ends with anks"
The FDIC will be backstopping PPIP investments that investors are investing in, the banks won't be borrowing anything. The banks will be selling their bad assets through the PPIP, and having them backstopped by taxpayers. Like I showed earlier, the banks already knew this would happen and have already been outbidding hedges for assets they know they can sell through PPIP. Scroll upthread for the link.
"Banks pay [the FDIC premiums] right off their bottom line, so that would have an impact on their earnings," said Camden Fine, president and CEO of the Independent Community Bankers of America, which represents over 5,000 local and community banks."
When banks include taxpayer funded capital injections and plan to use inflated taxpayer backstopped asset purchases into their books, it's kind of hard to claim any FDIC fees are being taken off "their" bottom line.
You're eating the bankster bullshit with a shovel.
"Well not yet but close. And do you know why? Because for the last 5 years congress refused to allow the FDIC to impose the fees on the banks and so the fund didn't grow. Congress. Again."
This has nothing to do with the fact it's insolvent.
"And if and when the FDIC does borrow the money from Treasury, who do you think is on the hook to pay it off? Hint. Starts with Band ends with anks"
The FDIC will be backstopping PPIP investments that investors are investing in, the banks won't be borrowing anything. The banks will be selling their bad assets through the PPIP, and having them backstopped by taxpayers. Like I showed earlier, the banks already knew this would happen and have already been outbidding hedges for assets they know they can sell through PPIP. Scroll upthread for the link.
"Banks pay [the FDIC premiums] right off their bottom line, so that would have an impact on their earnings," said Camden Fine, president and CEO of the Independent Community Bankers of America, which represents over 5,000 local and community banks."
When banks include taxpayer funded capital injections and plan to use inflated taxpayer backstopped asset purchases into their books, it's kind of hard to claim any FDIC fees are being taken off "their" bottom line.
You're eating the bankster bullshit with a shovel.
Posted by: ether at March 25, 2009 02:09 PM (D+Ibp)
354
Seriously. The bank doesn't HAVE profits if they don't get deposits. So sure, you can say it comes from their profits. You can also say that they're borrowing it against their deposits.
That goes beyond stupid and all the way to wrong. Deposits aren't profit as they are just that, deposits with a guarantee of repayment. If you give me a buck and I promise to repay it whenever you ask I haven't made a profit. In that transaction, you have and I have a liability. Can you point me to the accounting rules that allow you to make loans against liabilities?
The only way banks make money is by investing it in loans orother financial instruments and that is where they make profits and that's where the fees come from.
That goes beyond stupid and all the way to wrong. Deposits aren't profit as they are just that, deposits with a guarantee of repayment. If you give me a buck and I promise to repay it whenever you ask I haven't made a profit. In that transaction, you have and I have a liability. Can you point me to the accounting rules that allow you to make loans against liabilities?
The only way banks make money is by investing it in loans orother financial instruments and that is where they make profits and that's where the fees come from.
Posted by: JackStraw at March 25, 2009 02:12 PM (VW9/y)
355
"Step 4: Of this $84 purchase price, the FDIC would provide guarantees for $72 of financing, leaving $12 of equity. Step 5: The Treasury would then provide 50% of the equity funding required on a side-by-side basis with the investor. In this example, Treasury would invest approximately $6, with the private investor contributing $6. "
The bank selling the "asset" is paid the full auction price. The buyer of the PPIP vehicle had his the remainder of his purchase price financed by the FDIC in a no-recourse loan , read: taxpayer gets fucked. as long as the FDIC has unlimited access to taxpayer monies, which they clearly, at this point, do.
Now if they didn't have access to unlimited funds, I would agree the banks would be backstopping the PPIP investments rather than taxpayers.
The bank selling the "asset" is paid the full auction price. The buyer of the PPIP vehicle had his the remainder of his purchase price financed by the FDIC in a no-recourse loan , read: taxpayer gets fucked. as long as the FDIC has unlimited access to taxpayer monies, which they clearly, at this point, do.
Now if they didn't have access to unlimited funds, I would agree the banks would be backstopping the PPIP investments rather than taxpayers.
Posted by: ether at March 25, 2009 02:15 PM (D+Ibp)
356
Jack -
What money, exactly, do you think the banks invest in a fractional-reserve banking system?
That's right - deposits. In fact, for every dollar in deposits they hold, they can actually lend some multiple of dollars to someone else. The reason they pay interest at all to depositors is because the depositors loan them money!
The only other place for them to get money from (so they can borrow short and lend long) is the Fed, and not all banks have access to the Fed window.
Which is why a bank will fail if there's a run - they don't actually have all the cash that they took as deposits sitting in their vault.
And given that they count long-term loans they have made as assets, they appear to be more well capitalized than they actually are.
What money, exactly, do you think the banks invest in a fractional-reserve banking system?
That's right - deposits. In fact, for every dollar in deposits they hold, they can actually lend some multiple of dollars to someone else. The reason they pay interest at all to depositors is because the depositors loan them money!
The only other place for them to get money from (so they can borrow short and lend long) is the Fed, and not all banks have access to the Fed window.
Which is why a bank will fail if there's a run - they don't actually have all the cash that they took as deposits sitting in their vault.
And given that they count long-term loans they have made as assets, they appear to be more well capitalized than they actually are.
Posted by: brian at March 25, 2009 02:19 PM (cPWTF)
357
"Can you point me to the accounting rules that allow you to make loans against liabilities?"
Wow.
Go google fractional reserve lending.
Banks make money by lending credit. They lend according to the amount of assets they have. "Liabilites" can also be revenue streams, revenue streams that are included into balance sheets that determine how much leverage a bank can issue before it become unstable.
Bank Collapse 101.
Wow.
Go google fractional reserve lending.
Banks make money by lending credit. They lend according to the amount of assets they have. "Liabilites" can also be revenue streams, revenue streams that are included into balance sheets that determine how much leverage a bank can issue before it become unstable.
Bank Collapse 101.
Posted by: ether at March 25, 2009 02:19 PM (D+Ibp)
358
I think Jack Straw doesn't know we have a fractional-reserve system.
That would explain his defense of the banksters.
Jack Straw, I'm offering this video with sincerity...
It's no Alex Jones crap.
It's prophetic.
Most informative thing you will ever see.
http://tinyurl.com/37txmd
That would explain his defense of the banksters.
Jack Straw, I'm offering this video with sincerity...
It's no Alex Jones crap.
It's prophetic.
Most informative thing you will ever see.
http://tinyurl.com/37txmd
Posted by: ether at March 25, 2009 02:22 PM (D+Ibp)
359
This has nothing to do with the fact it's insolvent.
First, it's not insolvent. Second, it has everything to do with the fact that it has diminished capacity. The FDIC was set up as a rainy day fund to help failing institution pay their depositers. Congress stopped allowing the FDIC to collect the bank fees for half a decade when the sun was shinning despite, if you read the article, the request of the FDIC. Now, it's raining and instead of having sufficient funds, the FDIC is scrambling and taking temporary steps to cover prospective losses. If Congress hadn't stepped on their dicks once again, the FDIC would not be strapped at all.
When banks include taxpayer funded capital injections and plan to use inflated taxpayer backstopped asset purchases into their books, it's kind of hard to claim any FDIC fees are being taken off "their" bottom line.
Perhaps you missed the part where Citi, JPMorogan, BofA all made a profit in January and February, specifically because the TARP funds allowed them to live long enough to get their shit together. And once again, those weren't gifts we gave banks, they were loans. Many healthy banks, like the representative of the thousands of small community banks referenced in the article I posted, are healthy and tax dollars have no affect on them at all.
So no, it's not hard at all.
First, it's not insolvent. Second, it has everything to do with the fact that it has diminished capacity. The FDIC was set up as a rainy day fund to help failing institution pay their depositers. Congress stopped allowing the FDIC to collect the bank fees for half a decade when the sun was shinning despite, if you read the article, the request of the FDIC. Now, it's raining and instead of having sufficient funds, the FDIC is scrambling and taking temporary steps to cover prospective losses. If Congress hadn't stepped on their dicks once again, the FDIC would not be strapped at all.
When banks include taxpayer funded capital injections and plan to use inflated taxpayer backstopped asset purchases into their books, it's kind of hard to claim any FDIC fees are being taken off "their" bottom line.
Perhaps you missed the part where Citi, JPMorogan, BofA all made a profit in January and February, specifically because the TARP funds allowed them to live long enough to get their shit together. And once again, those weren't gifts we gave banks, they were loans. Many healthy banks, like the representative of the thousands of small community banks referenced in the article I posted, are healthy and tax dollars have no affect on them at all.
So no, it's not hard at all.
Posted by: JackStraw at March 25, 2009 02:28 PM (VW9/y)
360
Brian, I just realized why so many people are NOT as angry as they should be.
Posted by: ether at March 25, 2009 02:28 PM (D+Ibp)
361
"First, it's not insolvent. Second, it has everything to do with the fact that it has diminished capacity."
You're resorting to euphemisms."
"Perhaps you missed the part where Citi, JPMorogan, BofA all made a profit in January and February, specifically because the TARP funds allowed them to live long enough to get their shit together. And once again, those weren't gifts we gave banks, they were loans. Many healthy banks, like the representative of the thousands of small community banks referenced in the article I posted, are healthy and tax dollars have no affect on them at all.
So no, it's not hard at all"
Perhaps you missed the part whereall of their writedowns have been subsidized through straight capital injections or conduited payments through AIG. The problem is a huge shitpile of "assets" that have to be written down or sold at elevated prices through the FDIC taxpayer baskstopped slushfundPPIP until they can actually said to me making "profits."
How you can watch them be wholly subsidized by taxpayers, be ok with it, and call yourself a conservative is beyond me.
I think you may be confused.
You're resorting to euphemisms."
"Perhaps you missed the part where Citi, JPMorogan, BofA all made a profit in January and February, specifically because the TARP funds allowed them to live long enough to get their shit together. And once again, those weren't gifts we gave banks, they were loans. Many healthy banks, like the representative of the thousands of small community banks referenced in the article I posted, are healthy and tax dollars have no affect on them at all.
So no, it's not hard at all"
Perhaps you missed the part whereall of their writedowns have been subsidized through straight capital injections or conduited payments through AIG. The problem is a huge shitpile of "assets" that have to be written down or sold at elevated prices through the FDIC taxpayer baskstopped slushfundPPIP until they can actually said to me making "profits."
How you can watch them be wholly subsidized by taxpayers, be ok with it, and call yourself a conservative is beyond me.
I think you may be confused.
Posted by: ether at March 25, 2009 02:35 PM (D+Ibp)
362
Brian-
Yes, I am well aware of the fractional reserve system. But if you honestly think it is accepted accounting principle to loan money based on depositor funds to a fund that insures depositor funds, this despite the fact that I gave you proof that the fees are paid from the bottom line earning, not deposits, earning, of banks, then I'm not sure how to convince you otherwise.
Ok, ether. You win. It's all a communist plot. Or something.
Our entire financial system is nothing but a ponzi scheme designed to steal taxpayer dollars and the FDIC is really nothing but another tax scam.
Part of me almost hopes you get your desire and AIG craters. You can then see how few tax dollars go toward rebuilding the country.
Yes, I am well aware of the fractional reserve system. But if you honestly think it is accepted accounting principle to loan money based on depositor funds to a fund that insures depositor funds, this despite the fact that I gave you proof that the fees are paid from the bottom line earning, not deposits, earning, of banks, then I'm not sure how to convince you otherwise.
Ok, ether. You win. It's all a communist plot. Or something.
Our entire financial system is nothing but a ponzi scheme designed to steal taxpayer dollars and the FDIC is really nothing but another tax scam.
Part of me almost hopes you get your desire and AIG craters. You can then see how few tax dollars go toward rebuilding the country.
Posted by: JackStraw at March 25, 2009 02:48 PM (VW9/y)
363
"Our entire financial system is nothing but a ponzi scheme designed to steal taxpayer dollars and the FDIC is really nothing but another tax scam."
If you watch that movie I posted, you'll see that's damn near the truth.
We're fucked.
Plan accordingly.
If you watch that movie I posted, you'll see that's damn near the truth.
We're fucked.
Plan accordingly.
Posted by: ether at March 25, 2009 02:55 PM (D+Ibp)
364
Jack, Jack, Jack.
Money is fungible. The bank doesn't have a separate box for profits from loans, and another from profits from investments, and another for deposits.
It all goes into one big happy pile. The size of that pile is put through an equation, and that determines how much they can lend of various loan classes. It's regulated to within an inch of its life.
And those assets (which includes the sum of all future payments on all outstanding loans) are used to determine how much they pay the FDIC. And with the new FDIC rates, they are going to have to eat into actual deposits to pay.
Of course, if a bank like Citi uses TARP funds to pay, then ether is right (shudder) and it IS taxpayer money in a roundabout sort of way.
But no matter WHERE the money comes from, the bank shows it as an operating expense, which diminishes their profit.
Why you have to go through such gyrations is beyond me, but if it makes you happy to be right, then be right.
None of which changes the fact that we're still dealing with idiots and imbeciles who have decided to scapegoat a small group of employees at AIG so we won't notice that their other hand is pulling our wallet out of our pocket.
I'm afraid after AIG unwinds all the CDSs and there's just no money there, there's gonna be another round of bailouts to pay off people for gains they thought they realized but never existed. And if we get to the point where the government is going to backstop expected gains in high-risk investments, then we're all done.
Money is fungible. The bank doesn't have a separate box for profits from loans, and another from profits from investments, and another for deposits.
It all goes into one big happy pile. The size of that pile is put through an equation, and that determines how much they can lend of various loan classes. It's regulated to within an inch of its life.
And those assets (which includes the sum of all future payments on all outstanding loans) are used to determine how much they pay the FDIC. And with the new FDIC rates, they are going to have to eat into actual deposits to pay.
Of course, if a bank like Citi uses TARP funds to pay, then ether is right (shudder) and it IS taxpayer money in a roundabout sort of way.
But no matter WHERE the money comes from, the bank shows it as an operating expense, which diminishes their profit.
Why you have to go through such gyrations is beyond me, but if it makes you happy to be right, then be right.
None of which changes the fact that we're still dealing with idiots and imbeciles who have decided to scapegoat a small group of employees at AIG so we won't notice that their other hand is pulling our wallet out of our pocket.
I'm afraid after AIG unwinds all the CDSs and there's just no money there, there's gonna be another round of bailouts to pay off people for gains they thought they realized but never existed. And if we get to the point where the government is going to backstop expected gains in high-risk investments, then we're all done.
Posted by: brian at March 25, 2009 03:08 PM (cPWTF)
365
One of the pilots in my dad's pilot group at ABX wrote a similar letter about the ABX/DHL situation. Basically DHL raped ABX and A-Star with euro incompetence. DHL realized they messed up and to compensate, they gave a HUGE chunk of money as severance pay for the guys at ABX who would lose their jobs and the retirement for guys who went voluntarily. Throw in contract negotiations with the remaining pilots, and you've got a huge clusterfuck. The execs of ABX are sitting on the money, wanting to "invest it in the
company' (i.e. the payraises they keep getting) and are telling the
local media that the pilots are just greedy...for wanting their severance pay/retirement, but reinvestment in the company was expressly not what DHL gave ABX the money for.
So net end result is you've got a cunk of money being used as a pawn in a political game, while the guys who were fired are instead drawing off unemployment (everyone else's tax dollars); and guys like my dad who would quit voluntarily, and open slots for younger guys to keep their jobs, if they could get their retirment are stuck in administrative limbo.
company' (i.e. the payraises they keep getting) and are telling the
local media that the pilots are just greedy...for wanting their severance pay/retirement, but reinvestment in the company was expressly not what DHL gave ABX the money for.
So net end result is you've got a cunk of money being used as a pawn in a political game, while the guys who were fired are instead drawing off unemployment (everyone else's tax dollars); and guys like my dad who would quit voluntarily, and open slots for younger guys to keep their jobs, if they could get their retirment are stuck in administrative limbo.
Posted by: Ranba Ral at March 25, 2009 03:17 PM (VNi6L)
366
Jake DeSantis is a stud. Congress and the rest of the assbags in DC should take a lesson from him. This is what standing up for your principles is about.
Posted by: MrsPaulsFishSticks at March 25, 2009 03:25 PM (iYbLN)
367
MrsP, What are the "principles" you speak of?
Posted by: hutch1200 at March 25, 2009 03:44 PM (3N0/S)
368
these "principles"
Posted by: hutch1200 at March 25, 2009 03:46 PM (3N0/S)
369
>>Money is fungible. The bank doesn't have a separate box for profits from loans, and another from profits from investments, and another for deposits.
Yes, I know. Please expand upon your explanation and describe how banks money in from depositors and then illegally post it as something else. This would be a revelation, not just to me but to everyone who has ever deposited a nickel into a bank.
Bottom line, deposits aren't earnings and earnings are where the fees for the FDIC come from. It's not our money they are spending, it's theirs and that's the point.
Yes, I know. Please expand upon your explanation and describe how banks money in from depositors and then illegally post it as something else. This would be a revelation, not just to me but to everyone who has ever deposited a nickel into a bank.
Bottom line, deposits aren't earnings and earnings are where the fees for the FDIC come from. It's not our money they are spending, it's theirs and that's the point.
Posted by: JackStraw at March 25, 2009 03:56 PM (VW9/y)
370
From the Toads at CBS. This is exactly why Jake would not run against Dodd. The CBS idot could not have read the same letter we did.
March 25, 2009 2:54 PM
Analysis: AIG Letter Reflects Tone Deaf Wall Street
Posted by Brian Montopoli
This ties into the bankrupt Palin thread too
From the Toads at CBS. This is exactly why Jake would not run against Dodd. The CBS idot could not have read the same letter we did.
March 25, 2009 2:54 PM
Analysis: AIG Letter Reflects Tone Deaf Wall Street
Posted by Brian Montopoli
This ties into the bankrupt Palin thread too
Posted by: Chubby Gene at March 25, 2009 04:01 PM (0udxW)
371
The bonus outrage *is* largely manufactured spectacle, and it has a specific strategic aim, and those falling for the class warfare angle *incited by this administration* are playing right into its hands. As I posted in the Deficits thread:
Tapping AIG Furor, Regulators Seek Power to Seize Nonbanks (i.e. exploiting a largely *manufactured* furor, a meme pushed by the MSM, artificial Acorn-orchestrated protests & all, fanning the flames of class warfare, the Obama administration seeks to justify-- *primarily on this bogus basis* (!!!!!)-- an unprecedented & entirely un-American arrogation of power over the private sector... by the very same people who fucked things up in the 1st place...):
"The government's top financial regulators are channeling widespread outrage over retention bonuses at American International Group Inc. to quickly win authority they have sought for much of the past year to seize nonbank companies and freeze their contracts.
[...] The Obama administration is pushing for fast action on the issue, even before Congress tackles a broader overhaul of financial regulation.
Treasury Secretary Timothy Geithner and Federal Reserve Chairman Ben Bernanke, in congressional testimony Tuesday, said the lack of authority to seize AIG [...] forced the government into the position of owning almost 80% of the insurance giant, and serving as its major lender, while lacking the power to stop multimillion-dollar bonus contracts signed before the government intervention.
[...] While the power seems likely to be granted by Congress, it's unclear which wing of the government would be given the authority. Mr. Geithner proposed that any emergency action be based on a determination by the Treasury secretary along with the Federal Reserve and the federal regulator overseeing the company.
He said that in addition to the power to seize a company, the proposed authority would give the government rights to sell or transfer assets or liabilities of the firm and renegotiate contracts, including those with employees.
Rep. Barney Frank (D., Mass.), chairman of the House Financial Services Committee, declined to say whether the power would be provided to the FDIC, the Treasury or some combination of the two. Speaking to reporters after Tuesday's hearing, Mr. Frank said that he had discussed the issue with President Barack Obama and that the committee would vote on a bill either next week or the following week. But the legislation would still be at least a few weeks away from enactment, because it must go through the Senate as well. [....]"
Tapping AIG Furor, Regulators Seek Power to Seize Nonbanks (i.e. exploiting a largely *manufactured* furor, a meme pushed by the MSM, artificial Acorn-orchestrated protests & all, fanning the flames of class warfare, the Obama administration seeks to justify-- *primarily on this bogus basis* (!!!!!)-- an unprecedented & entirely un-American arrogation of power over the private sector... by the very same people who fucked things up in the 1st place...):
"The government's top financial regulators are channeling widespread outrage over retention bonuses at American International Group Inc. to quickly win authority they have sought for much of the past year to seize nonbank companies and freeze their contracts.
[...] The Obama administration is pushing for fast action on the issue, even before Congress tackles a broader overhaul of financial regulation.
Treasury Secretary Timothy Geithner and Federal Reserve Chairman Ben Bernanke, in congressional testimony Tuesday, said the lack of authority to seize AIG [...] forced the government into the position of owning almost 80% of the insurance giant, and serving as its major lender, while lacking the power to stop multimillion-dollar bonus contracts signed before the government intervention.
[...] While the power seems likely to be granted by Congress, it's unclear which wing of the government would be given the authority. Mr. Geithner proposed that any emergency action be based on a determination by the Treasury secretary along with the Federal Reserve and the federal regulator overseeing the company.
He said that in addition to the power to seize a company, the proposed authority would give the government rights to sell or transfer assets or liabilities of the firm and renegotiate contracts, including those with employees.
Rep. Barney Frank (D., Mass.), chairman of the House Financial Services Committee, declined to say whether the power would be provided to the FDIC, the Treasury or some combination of the two. Speaking to reporters after Tuesday's hearing, Mr. Frank said that he had discussed the issue with President Barack Obama and that the committee would vote on a bill either next week or the following week. But the legislation would still be at least a few weeks away from enactment, because it must go through the Senate as well. [....]"
Posted by: lael at March 25, 2009 04:19 PM (ulEmZ)
372
New Roubini:
"
But let's not have any illusions. The government bears the risk if and when the investors take a bath on the taxpayer-provided loans. If the economy gets worse, it could get very ugly, very quickly. The administration should be transparent in making clear that there is still a wealth transfer taking place here - from taxpayers to investors and banks.
Also, while this plan is designed by the Treasury, many of the big guarantees are being made by the Federal Deposit Insurance Corp. and the Fed. Why not use only Treasury funds? Well, then the administration would have to deal with Congress. While the populist hysteria of last week suggests this end run might make sense, there is something a little worrying about circumventing the legislative process on such a huge investment.
Moreover, there's the issue of transparency - or lack thereof. No one knows what the loans or securities are worth. Competing investors will help solve this by promoting price discovery. But be careful what you wish for. We might not like the answers.
Finally, we have to anticipate the likelihood that some banks will resist selling their loans and securities. Why? Currently, the government has been giving them the option to keep holding them with the hope that market conditions will improve.
Going forward, the government must insist on the banks' involvement in the new program. The reason that financial institutions must be pressured is that they are the cause of the financial crisis. They took advantage of loopholes to avoid regulatory requirements, taking a huge bet on securities they were never meant to hold in the first place.
What happens if removing toxic assets from a bank's balance sheet at near-market prices shows it is effectively insolvent? Then we will have to face the elephant in the room. We may then have to start asking, "Why keep insolvent banks afloat?" And having asked that, we will have to search for ways to manage the ensuing systemic risk.
Either way, once the plan is fully implemented, we will be entering a new phase of the financial crisis. The water is choppy. Let's hope we are strong swimmers."
http://tinyurl.com/ccxcjv
"
But let's not have any illusions. The government bears the risk if and when the investors take a bath on the taxpayer-provided loans. If the economy gets worse, it could get very ugly, very quickly. The administration should be transparent in making clear that there is still a wealth transfer taking place here - from taxpayers to investors and banks.
Also, while this plan is designed by the Treasury, many of the big guarantees are being made by the Federal Deposit Insurance Corp. and the Fed. Why not use only Treasury funds? Well, then the administration would have to deal with Congress. While the populist hysteria of last week suggests this end run might make sense, there is something a little worrying about circumventing the legislative process on such a huge investment.
Moreover, there's the issue of transparency - or lack thereof. No one knows what the loans or securities are worth. Competing investors will help solve this by promoting price discovery. But be careful what you wish for. We might not like the answers.
Finally, we have to anticipate the likelihood that some banks will resist selling their loans and securities. Why? Currently, the government has been giving them the option to keep holding them with the hope that market conditions will improve.
Going forward, the government must insist on the banks' involvement in the new program. The reason that financial institutions must be pressured is that they are the cause of the financial crisis. They took advantage of loopholes to avoid regulatory requirements, taking a huge bet on securities they were never meant to hold in the first place.
What happens if removing toxic assets from a bank's balance sheet at near-market prices shows it is effectively insolvent? Then we will have to face the elephant in the room. We may then have to start asking, "Why keep insolvent banks afloat?" And having asked that, we will have to search for ways to manage the ensuing systemic risk.
Either way, once the plan is fully implemented, we will be entering a new phase of the financial crisis. The water is choppy. Let's hope we are strong swimmers."
http://tinyurl.com/ccxcjv
Posted by: ether at March 25, 2009 04:29 PM (D+Ibp)
373
So, no consensus yet? I hate that.
Posted by: toby928: Hater at March 25, 2009 05:12 PM (PD1tk)
374
Fuck gp, Fuck CAD Daddy, and fuck Pelvis. People like you are fucking the country to hell and back with your class-envy and Communism. Suck my cock and die.
Anybody who stands up against Frank, Dodd, and Obama is my hero. Frankly, I'd like to break Frank's fucking nose at this point. I hope I'm never within 10 feet of him, as I don't fancy spending time in jail. And that now applies to the enemies of liberty who hate executives.
Fuck gp, Fuck CAD Daddy, and fuck Pelvis. People like you are fucking the country to hell and back with your class-envy and Communism. Suck my cock and die.
Anybody who stands up against Frank, Dodd, and Obama is my hero. Frankly, I'd like to break Frank's fucking nose at this point. I hope I'm never within 10 feet of him, as I don't fancy spending time in jail. And that now applies to the enemies of liberty who hate executives.
Posted by: The Band at March 25, 2009 06:29 PM (QtRBc)
375
Too much emotion on this thread.
Too many of you don't understand the intricacies of the financial relationships that AIG managed.
I'm glad I didn't have internet access while traveling these past few days.
Too many of you don't understand the intricacies of the financial relationships that AIG managed.
I'm glad I didn't have internet access while traveling these past few days.
Posted by: Nom de Blog at March 25, 2009 10:09 PM (fnU+z)
376
Great piece, I'm going to make my congressman (R) aware of it and try to get him to read it. The idiot was one of the Republicans who caved to the faux populism and voted for the confiscation bill.
Posted by: SamIam at March 25, 2009 10:22 PM (jl7C/)
377
So to sum up: DeSantis is a hero, an irreplaceable genius uniquely
genetically endowed to reconstitute AIG to get us our bailout money
back, besieged by busloads of murderous gawkers, and upon his fate
rests theviability ofeverycontract ever written. Hisresignation
was apublicity martyrdom masterstroke that we are all required to
rally to and defend. Meanwhile, those of us who would point out that
his plaints are unseemly, and that nobody loves a whiny quitter,we
critics are all class-warriors who never produced anything of value in
our lives, shiftess ACORN layabouts, and mindless O-bots whipped up
into a wealth-destroying populist storm.
Exactly!!
Suckers like The Band think if they work hard enough, that someday they too will be allowed entrance into the exclusive brotherhood. Keep dreaming Band because even if you do acquire this seemingly holy grail, these people would have their minions stomp seven shades of shit out of you before they allowed you into their homes and clubs.
genetically endowed to reconstitute AIG to get us our bailout money
back, besieged by busloads of murderous gawkers, and upon his fate
rests theviability ofeverycontract ever written. Hisresignation
was apublicity martyrdom masterstroke that we are all required to
rally to and defend. Meanwhile, those of us who would point out that
his plaints are unseemly, and that nobody loves a whiny quitter,we
critics are all class-warriors who never produced anything of value in
our lives, shiftess ACORN layabouts, and mindless O-bots whipped up
into a wealth-destroying populist storm.
Exactly!!
Suckers like The Band think if they work hard enough, that someday they too will be allowed entrance into the exclusive brotherhood. Keep dreaming Band because even if you do acquire this seemingly holy grail, these people would have their minions stomp seven shades of shit out of you before they allowed you into their homes and clubs.
Posted by: allheavens at March 26, 2009 09:54 AM (hAg7R)
378
270
"But if we drive all the people who are trying to work this problem out of AIG you may get your wish."
Yes. They are the ONLY PEOPLE who can work out this problem.
Just like I am the ONLY PERSON who can keep my company going. Please send me checksssssss...
Posted by: Harun
Exactly Harun. THe past person who held this job was promised $1 plus $700,000 when it was done (and got paid $1 and the $700,000 is being stolen back).
Now since you understand he wasn't the only person who could do this job, we'll hire you. We'll pay you $1 and one squijillion dollars once the job is done. Oh, and we double-secret-pinky-swear-promise not to steal all the payment we're promising you to do this job. No really, ignore the people behind me laughing we'll really pay you what we're promising.
We really really really swear... are you willing to take this job? If not we'll simply release your name and address and send lynch mobs to your house (which is also what we'll do if you take this job and fail). Intersted yet?
Obviously you are. Please come work for me first to determine your credentials. I'll be paying you One shiny dime every week for all the work you do, with a $1,837,345,353 bonus payable at the end of 5 years of work... and I promise to be as trustworthy as the Government in paying your bonus in full and on time.
Interested? I've got a lot of work you could do.
"But if we drive all the people who are trying to work this problem out of AIG you may get your wish."
Yes. They are the ONLY PEOPLE who can work out this problem.
Just like I am the ONLY PERSON who can keep my company going. Please send me checksssssss...
Posted by: Harun
Exactly Harun. THe past person who held this job was promised $1 plus $700,000 when it was done (and got paid $1 and the $700,000 is being stolen back).
Now since you understand he wasn't the only person who could do this job, we'll hire you. We'll pay you $1 and one squijillion dollars once the job is done. Oh, and we double-secret-pinky-swear-promise not to steal all the payment we're promising you to do this job. No really, ignore the people behind me laughing we'll really pay you what we're promising.
We really really really swear... are you willing to take this job? If not we'll simply release your name and address and send lynch mobs to your house (which is also what we'll do if you take this job and fail). Intersted yet?
Obviously you are. Please come work for me first to determine your credentials. I'll be paying you One shiny dime every week for all the work you do, with a $1,837,345,353 bonus payable at the end of 5 years of work... and I promise to be as trustworthy as the Government in paying your bonus in full and on time.
Interested? I've got a lot of work you could do.
Posted by: Gekkobear at March 26, 2009 11:08 AM (lAPaG)
379
Letter sent to the real employees today:
I am an AIG employee within the Personal Auto Group line, in November 2008 we were advised by management that all lower level employees (Supervisor and below) would lose part or all of our shift differential beginning January 1, 2009 which for some amounts to a loss of 5-20% in income, depending upon what schedule we work. The attitude of management at the time of the announcement was "be thankful we still have our jobs", AIG executives are the biggest bunch of hypocrites ever.
Our company newsletter is called "Seize the Future" for a reason, to give select individuals bonuses for playing golf on a work day and brown nosing is appalling. The average employee who actually performs the lion's share of work within our ranks is lucky to receive a 3-4% merit increase in any given year. Remember the good ol' days when we got $1.83 after taxes for $5 referral and an ice cream sandwich on Friday?
I challenge every non-exempt AIG employee to exercise your rights by submitting a complaint to your states Attorney General’s Office or Department of Labor, do not sit by and allow Ed "Dollar Bill" Liddy and his Band of Brothers to deceive you any further. Remember this, while you are slaving away on the phones, lying to the customers that "we used to be AIG, but now we're not" your income is less and executives still get bonuses. While you are lying to the customers about why their premiums have been raised yet again, executives are out on retreats. And yet they come to you and ask "your tone sounded really somber and flat on the phone today, anything wrong?" Well it's kind of hard to be energetic when 52 former executives receive retention bonuses of more than $1,000,000 and we are left to answer calls from angry customers as to why AIG is stealing taxpayer dollars.
When they spent $200,000 for rooms, $150,000 for meals and $23,000 for spa treatments, you and I were herded into a room for a Subway sandwich, AIG logo chap sticks and an empty green bag. When they were ready to give Martin Sullivan $19,000,000 and $600,000,000 to other executives, they came to you and me to take our money, for myself a loss of $3,200 or 4 mortgage payments.
Our old company values of People, Customer Focus, Performance, Integrity, Respect, and Entrepreneurship have been replaced by GREED. So since we are continually told "you are the voice of the customer" SPEAK UP! What is the worst case scenario? CEO forces the sale of the company under the guise of "Expansion, Restructuring and Re-branding" only to walk out the door with $40,000,000 a la Bruce Marlow or company bankruptcy? For Mr. Liddy that would be about $165,000,000 plus his $1 annual salary, for us the lumpen........... nothing.
I would say call your congressman, but unfortunately many of them have already taken campaign money from, guess who? That’s right AIG, see everybody gets paid for doing nothing, except for you and me.Sincerely,Bottom Of The Food Chain
I am an AIG employee within the Personal Auto Group line, in November 2008 we were advised by management that all lower level employees (Supervisor and below) would lose part or all of our shift differential beginning January 1, 2009 which for some amounts to a loss of 5-20% in income, depending upon what schedule we work. The attitude of management at the time of the announcement was "be thankful we still have our jobs", AIG executives are the biggest bunch of hypocrites ever.
Our company newsletter is called "Seize the Future" for a reason, to give select individuals bonuses for playing golf on a work day and brown nosing is appalling. The average employee who actually performs the lion's share of work within our ranks is lucky to receive a 3-4% merit increase in any given year. Remember the good ol' days when we got $1.83 after taxes for $5 referral and an ice cream sandwich on Friday?
I challenge every non-exempt AIG employee to exercise your rights by submitting a complaint to your states Attorney General’s Office or Department of Labor, do not sit by and allow Ed "Dollar Bill" Liddy and his Band of Brothers to deceive you any further. Remember this, while you are slaving away on the phones, lying to the customers that "we used to be AIG, but now we're not" your income is less and executives still get bonuses. While you are lying to the customers about why their premiums have been raised yet again, executives are out on retreats. And yet they come to you and ask "your tone sounded really somber and flat on the phone today, anything wrong?" Well it's kind of hard to be energetic when 52 former executives receive retention bonuses of more than $1,000,000 and we are left to answer calls from angry customers as to why AIG is stealing taxpayer dollars.
When they spent $200,000 for rooms, $150,000 for meals and $23,000 for spa treatments, you and I were herded into a room for a Subway sandwich, AIG logo chap sticks and an empty green bag. When they were ready to give Martin Sullivan $19,000,000 and $600,000,000 to other executives, they came to you and me to take our money, for myself a loss of $3,200 or 4 mortgage payments.
Our old company values of People, Customer Focus, Performance, Integrity, Respect, and Entrepreneurship have been replaced by GREED. So since we are continually told "you are the voice of the customer" SPEAK UP! What is the worst case scenario? CEO forces the sale of the company under the guise of "Expansion, Restructuring and Re-branding" only to walk out the door with $40,000,000 a la Bruce Marlow or company bankruptcy? For Mr. Liddy that would be about $165,000,000 plus his $1 annual salary, for us the lumpen........... nothing.
I would say call your congressman, but unfortunately many of them have already taken campaign money from, guess who? That’s right AIG, see everybody gets paid for doing nothing, except for you and me.Sincerely,Bottom Of The Food Chain
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of guidelines are offered for you to make a right decision.
Firstly, you can never to too cautious on checking the details of a
replica watch. A reputable website usually comes with a good number of
pictures which display the watch details such as markings, engravings,
materials and dial face features. Everyone wants to buy an imitation
with high grade leather strap or stainless steel bracelet. Usually
speaking, the quality Rolex Replica
is made up of sapphire crystal glass and Swiss made movement so that
the durability and time accuracy are ensured.
Secondly, make sure that you are buying from a reliable source. It
should be evaluated before you make a choice on the style. As far as we
know, there are a large number of dealers who are doing the similar
business. At a temporary time, it is impossible to have a thorough
knowledge about all of them. Thus, you are recommended to search as much
information as you can to evaluate its reputation. For a good Rolex Daytona,
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satisfaction including the positive and negative feedbacks from the
previous buyers.
here is no denying that buying Swiss Replica Watches
has become a trend in modern society. However, it is not an easy task
to find a high quality one especially you a freshman in the related
field. You have to collect as much information as you can about the
retailer who you are going to deal with because its credit standing
directly influences the quality to the timepiece. Therefore, Replica Rolex
of guidelines are offered for you to make a right decision.
Firstly, you can never to too cautious on checking the details of a
replica watch. A reputable website usually comes with a good number of
pictures which display the watch details such as markings, engravings,
materials and dial face features. Everyone wants to buy an imitation
with high grade leather strap or stainless steel bracelet. Usually
speaking, the quality Rolex Replica
is made up of sapphire crystal glass and Swiss made movement so that
the durability and time accuracy are ensured.
Secondly, make sure that you are buying from a reliable source. It
should be evaluated before you make a choice on the style. As far as we
know, there are a large number of dealers who are doing the similar
business. At a temporary time, it is impossible to have a thorough
knowledge about all of them. Thus, you are recommended to search as much
information as you can to evaluate its reputation. For a good Rolex Daytona,
it always comes with available telephone number which can be used for
consultant or online services. What is more, the trustworthy website
guarantees periodical refund for quality issue Swiss Replica Omega.
According to my experience, the best way is to check the customer
satisfaction including the positive and negative feedbacks from the
previous buyers.
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