Gun Thread: Day After Independence Day Edition [Weasel]

I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, and to the republic for which it stands, one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.

Let's take a look at some gun stuff below, shall we?

So on Thursday evening, our pal Ace posted a thread which included this video of a confrontation taking place earlier in the week in Lake Orion Michigan.

Later in the comments of the subsequent thread, our pal Jen the original made the following comments and observations.

In response to the previous post about the couple at Chipotle in Lake Orion Michigan I will say this.
I do a lot of shooting sports and I carry every single day. I take that responsibility seriously. Besides taking shooting clinics, classes, etc. I also regularly attend legal seminars in regards to use of force. Specifically for the state I live in and when I travel I review the laws of the states I'm traveling in to know what I can and cannot do in each state.
Something that is emphasized over and over in legal and in tactical classes is NOT turning into the aggressor. The law in Michigan is clear, if you are in imminent danger of harm you can defend yourself with deadly force. That includes in your home. There is no duty to retreat, but there is an implied duty to descalate whenever possible.
I personally do not want to shoot anyone, nor do I want to spend hundreds of thousands of dollars and a year in court trying to defend myself, or worse, end up in jail. And to prevent all of those things, you must have a clear plan at all times on how you are going to get out of a situation without using force.
I have no idea if the precipitating event that started this even happened. But once the screaming started, MO woman had quite a few better choices than what she made. She could have kindly apologized for any perceived issue. If that didn't work, she could have told black women that she was not interested in arguing with them and left. If they continued to block her, she could have immediately gone to the manager of Chipotle and told them she was being harrassed and felt in danger and let Chipotle handle these women who were likely doing this on a dare. Once she got outside, if they were blocking her from getting to her car, THEN she should have either called 911 or gone back into the Chipotle and let them call. Once she got in the car, she should have stayed in the car. If they started to surround the car, call the frickin' police.
You are in a state you don't reside in, you're pregnant, and instead of calling for help, you decide to escalate the screaming match like you're going to educate these assholes about racism, then you jump out of the car screaming, and whip out a gun and point it at the women, while standing there like you're Deputy JimBob, going to hold them under arrest until the local law gets there. There is almost no scenario in Michigan where that is legal.
It won't matter if they face trial or a judge, she at least is going to do some time in Michigan for this. And they both are going to lose their guns, including their home protection weapons in Missouri while this legal battle goes on.
Was it really worth it, over being called a racist white lady by some 15 year old black brat?

As Jen was typing (thanks Jen!), I was thinking pretty much the same thing. I was also thinking this was a great case study to start a conversation I have wanted to have here for some time. That conversaton is about our responsibilities as gun owners, and more specifically our responsibilities as gun carriers.

This sort of random confrontation has happened as long as there have been people, with the liklihood even greater in today's social climate. How would you handle the situation if it were you? First, let me preface the discussion with the acknowledgement that each state's law differs, sometimes significantly, with respect to self defense. Also, the video doesn't show everything that ocurred between the two parties, so there could easily have been important aspects of the exchange which we don't see. Having said that, I didn't observe anything even remotely approching a threat of grave bodily harm which would cause me to draw a weapon if I were in the same situation. What I did see was extremely annoying and even provocative behavior on the part of the 'aggrieved" party, and ultimately a disproportinate and unproductive escalation by Gun Lady.

As long as I've been writing the Gun Thread, I have implored everyone to do two things; to buy ammo, and to carry a weapon for self defense everywhere they go. However, carrying a weapon comes with significant responsibility. I'd argue it requires you to be much more circumspect in just this sort of confrontation. You significantly limit your options when you introduce a gun to the equation, period. Drawing a gun from it's holster is an act of last resort, and just one very final step away from pulling the trigger. It's that serious. A gun is not on your hip to intimidate or to teach someone a lesson by waving it around.

So Gun Lady went from a situation that might have only been infuriating, upsetting and then forgotten in a day or two, to jail. She likely faces some very serious charges, and will probably spend an enormous amount of time and money on her legal defense because she couldn't simply walk away from the situation. That's right, all she had to do is get in the car and leave. That might have been somewhat humiliating, but it's a much better trade than jail time and all of your life savings.

As Jen said, do you think it was worth it? How many of you think she is regretting her choices now? Gun Lady, now Former Gun Lady, had an assload of better options than drawing her weapon, none of which would have been particularly difficult. Do not let your pride and ego take over your critical thinking and make choices for you.

All of you, I hope, are familiar with the work of Attorney Andrew Branca, the author of the popular book The Law of Self Defense, and a recognized subject matter expert in the area of self defense law. Mr. Branca has an informative website and devoted his July 2nd Q&A Show to an analysis of the incident in Michigan. The show is about 40 minutes long and well worth your time (later) to see how this real world event is viewed from a legal perspective. After watching his presentation, you may be surprised at how your view of the incident changes.

Finally, you have to know the laws in your state and anywhere else you go while armed. It's your responsibility as an armed citizen, and the butt you save may very well be your own. Always be thinking and always have a plan. Sometimes that plan should simply be to un-ass the situation.

*****

So there has been a lot of general commentary and discussion lately regarding the implications of the use of deadly force. As usual. it seems like there are two sets of laws, one for the "peaceful protesters" and another for the property owners whose shit is being destroyed by them. I think it safe to assume the law is going to land on you with both feet in the event, God forbid, you have to defend yourself with a firearm. It was in this context the other day when someone wondered if their homeowners policy, specifically a liability umbrella policy, would start spewing cash in a self defense shooting. Our ever alert pal ibguy sent in this helpful information on concealed carry, self defense and insurance.

ibguy adds emphasis to the following from the article:

"The policy extends coverage for this type of claim, but then excludes those claims that arise due to intentional acts. In this case, it's pretty clear that you intended to shoot your attacker, so it seems as if you're on your own."

This seems academic until it's your freedom and potentially all of your assets at risk. If you're going to place yourself in that situation, you owe it to yourself to have a damn good reason for doing so.

*****

We don't have a Gun Thread video this week, but it occurs to me I have been filming a lot of rifles lately featuring the M1907 sling. If you have one, it's not only for carrying the rifle on your shoulder, but serves a purpose in stabilizing the weapon to the shooter. Here's a helpful video on how to put one on your rifle so you don't look like a dork.

*****

As with most everything in the shooting sports, one thing leads to another as our pal C K is finding:

Well getting the chronograph led to a series of things. I had to get a better scale, a trickler a funnel etc. Now I'm working up test loads that are very precisely measured. Man, that's a lot of work, I can see why you guys shoot bolt guns. The good news is after much testing my Lee dispensers vary less than a gn so when I decide on a load I can deal with a gn variance.

Keep up the good work, C K!

*****

Next or pal Butch sends the following picture of a way too orderly and uncluttered workspace and an interesting project:

Here is a picture of my humble work bench and a picture of my current project gun, rebuilding a Lee-Enfield No 4 Mk1. The barrel is totally shot out and I have to send it off to get a new barrel installed & head spaced. Next project is building an M1917, starting with just the receiver and other minor bits and bobs.

You doing rocket surgery in there?

Looks nice, Butch! Thanks for sending them in!

******

Virginia
A slew of restrictive gun laws went into effect in Virginia on July 1st. Here's a recap courtesy of Virginia Citizens Defense League.

******

ATTENTION NoVaMoMe 2020!!

Sad people who cannot make the new NoVaMoMe date of August 29th

Due the Chinese Cooties hysteria in Virginia, the NoVaMoMe 2020 has been postponed until Saturday, August 29th. The time and location remain the same. If you haven't already, please check your email and let the Central Planning Committee know if you are able to make the new date. If not, your registration fee will be refunded and we will open your spot to those on the wait list. Questions? Just email us at NoVaMoMe2020 at gee mail dot com. Thank you!

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Link-O-Rama

I'm really very seriously not kidding around anymore. Buy Ammo
AmmoSeek - online ammo search tool
GunBot - online ammo search tool
SG Ammo
Palmetto State Armory
Georgia Arms
AmmoMan
Target Sports USA

***Mail Bag***

Commenter TX Marko sends us (via CBD) this great video from Black Rifle Coffee Company. Both their coffee and sense of humor are Weasel approved! Thanks TX Marko!

******

Please note the new and improved gmail account morongunthread at gmail dot com. An informal Gun Thread archive can be found HERE. If you have a question you would like to ask Gun Thread Staff offline, just send us a note and we'll do our best to answer. If you care to share the story of your favorite firearm, send a picture with your nic and tell us what you sadly lost in the tragic canoe accident. If you would like to remain completely anonymous, just say so. Lurkers are always welcome!

That's it for this week - have you been to the range?

Posted by: Open Blogger at 07:00 PM

Comments

(Jump to bottom of comments)

1 Ready on the firing line

Posted by: Skip at July 05, 2020 07:00 PM (6f16T)

2 Yaaah!!

Posted by: Norman Spiny at July 05, 2020 07:00 PM (5a33v)

3 Pew Pew Thread!!! No for the content!!

Posted by: Scuba_Dude at July 05, 2020 07:01 PM (uyKdz)

4 top 5

Posted by: mallfly the Hoboken Peach at July 05, 2020 07:01 PM (4a9Vv)

5 Now, not no :-p

Posted by: Scuba_Dude at July 05, 2020 07:01 PM (uyKdz)

6 "Guns are evil! Only trained professionals like the Police should be allowed to have guns!"

Liberals everywhere until about a month ago

Posted by: mallfly the Hoboken Peach at July 05, 2020 07:02 PM (4a9Vv)

7 Dutifully called
Still no range time, processed some lead Friday but wasn't working well so didn't get to make any bullets

Posted by: Skip at July 05, 2020 07:02 PM (6f16T)

8 Ola, ca va? I will have to look at the Gee Rand vid to see if I am doing it wrong.

Posted by: NZFrank with a M2 at July 05, 2020 07:04 PM (bgJ0E)

9 Wahoo!: After 10 month wait, finally got my Sig suppressor for my .300BLK AR pistol!
Shit! Won't fit with my current handguard (missed it by 1/4")!! Already ordered a shorter handguard.

Wahoo!: Celebrated the 4th by buying my first revolver in 30 years!
Shit!: Still a 3-5 day wait for background checks......grrrr.....

Posted by: Norman Spiny at July 05, 2020 07:05 PM (5a33v)

10 Whoa, I coulda been second. But the content on this thread is second to none! So I read it first. Amateur.

Posted by: RI Red at July 05, 2020 07:06 PM (HQ9xd)

11 Agree getting out of situation of this confrontation is priority. But there is the good chance as in a war if both sides are not for a peaceful end one side will not have a good chance of doing so.
Which ending it will be is the crap shoot.

Posted by: Skip at July 05, 2020 07:06 PM (6f16T)

12 Doh, its an M14, not the dreaded Gee Rand.

Posted by: NZFrank with a M2 at July 05, 2020 07:07 PM (bgJ0E)

13 So, never go to Chipotle? Or Michigan? In all seriousness, if you carry you have to understand you may have to eat more dirt than you imagine, but not the real last shovel.

Posted by: Heart of Darkness at July 05, 2020 07:07 PM (xceTB)

14 6 "Guns are evil! Only trained professionals like the Police should be allowed to have guns!"

Liberals everywhere until about a month ago
Posted by: mallfly the Hoboken Peach at July 05, 2020 07:02 PM (4a9Vv)

Many - not all, certainly, but many police officers are of the same mind.

I have been seeing a meme going around the net that says something to the effect of "I will defend a police officer's life if he/she is attacked! Share if you agree!" My friends who share this are dismayed when I say "If allowed."

And why do I say that? Because, let's say I see a situation much like what happened in Houston about two years or so ago when a Harris County Sheriff's Deputy was shot and killed at a gas station on the NW side, and I intervene on the cop's behalf. While I am sure the cop won't mind, and many cops out there wouldn't mind, there is ALWAYS going to be some asshole that will greet such by reading me the Riot Act and how I need to leave such things to the professionals, blah blah blah.

Hence, "if allowed."

Posted by: Catch Thirty-Thr33 at July 05, 2020 07:07 PM (ejsiI)

15 The black lady no longer continued to threaten to kick her ass did she?

Posted by: Can't resist temptation at July 05, 2020 07:08 PM (2DOZq)

16 Not been to range lately. Plussed up on mags for most of the firearms in the laager.

Posted by: blaster at July 05, 2020 07:08 PM (ZfRYq)

17 I had the misfortune of watching the entire video of the encounter ending above. The assailants (a teenage girl and her mom) were extremely aggressive and threatening, and just prior to the pregnant woman drawing her weapon had blocked them in so they couldn't leave the parking lot. The aggressor mom had verbally threatened the couple multiple times, and when they attempted to leave had pounded on their rear windshield. At that point, in the gun owner's place, I would have feared for my safety.

Posted by: Deranged DM at July 05, 2020 07:08 PM (NMbg+)

18 Forgot to mention at #9 that the revolver I got is a S&W J-Frame 642 Airweight .38 Sp. Nice feeling piece, gonna be fun to take to the range.

Posted by: Norman Spiny at July 05, 2020 07:09 PM (5a33v)

19 I have a CCW in CA. This write up was fantastic. A lot of people become Barney Fife when they carry, without thinking of the consequences. Not mentioned: loss of employment on top of the ungodly costs or, worse, going to jail. I genuinely hope I never need to unholster my gun. I also hope I never need to use my car or homeowners insurance. But there is a reason I carry insurance and a gun. I just might need them one day.

Posted by: G at July 05, 2020 07:09 PM (dy/m/)

20 This is the oath I made when I became American:

"I hereby declare, on oath, that I absolutely and entirely renounce and abjure all allegiance and fidelity to any foreign prince, potentate, state, or sovereignty, of whom or which I have heretofore been a subject or citizen; that I will support and defend the Constitution and laws of the United States of America against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I will bear arms on behalf of the United States when required by the law; that I will perform noncombatant service in the Armed Forces of the United States when required by the law; that I will perform work of national importance under civilian direction when required by the law; and that I take this obligation freely, without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; so help me God."

Posted by: vmom 2020 at July 05, 2020 07:10 PM (OCRKH)

21 Thanks, Weasel, for another informative Gub Thread, and for the link-love.

I also watched AB's take on GunLady, and appreciated his calm, insightful commentary. But: there were an AWFUL LOT of "if's" there. I rather think that Jen has the most cromulent take.

Posted by: ibguy at July 05, 2020 07:11 PM (EHVbt)

22 Posted by: G at July 05, 2020 07:09 PM (dy/m/)

A lot of people? Really?

Posted by: Can't resist temptation at July 05, 2020 07:11 PM (2DOZq)

23 vmom sra blaster is also naturalized and she often points out that she has a higher requirement for being a citizen than those of us born here.

Posted by: blaster at July 05, 2020 07:12 PM (ZfRYq)

24 Mr Weasel, maybe an idea for a gub thread , do slings and how they are used as an aid to accurate shooting. I run a running loop mostly on my competition rifles and target rifles.

Posted by: NZFrank with a M2 at July 05, 2020 07:12 PM (bgJ0E)

25 I recall the CPL training I got back in the day, when they had the local prosecutor come in and talk to us.

He would give us what appeared to be a clear-cut case of self-defense and when everyone agreed that yeah, force was justified, he'd explain how he'd put us in jail for doing that.

Very eye-opening.

This is why I am only luke-warm on permitless carry. I get the arguments for it, but the training for a CPL is so valuable I'd want there to be an incentive for people to get it. Maybe a super-carry permit in "restricted" zones, because having that knowledge is to my mind essential.

I think Michigan is safer because we have 300,000+ people with permits and ALL of them have been through that training.

*We do have open carry without a permit, so there are other options.

Posted by: Former Gun Owner A.H. Lloyd at July 05, 2020 07:13 PM (cfSRQ)

26 Posted by: blaster at July 05, 2020 07:12 PM (ZfRYq)

indeed
*hi-fives Sra Blaster*

Posted by: vmom 2020 at July 05, 2020 07:13 PM (OCRKH)

27 I don't care for Branca. Or his mentality - to be honest.

Don't get me wrong - I'm sure he's 100% correct on all the Ps and Qs. I just think it's too much clutter.

I'm resigned to the fact that - once I draw - life as I knew it is over. Any activist DA will do what he does, and any activist judge will cooperate, and if those streams cross I'll hang - figuratively. I'll eventually get a shot - literally.

But I'll carry anyway. And if its time - I'll take care of today's problem. Branca can analyze all my mistakes tomorrow. I don't need the mental clutter of worrying about tomorrow's problem while taking care of today's problem.

Posted by: Political Mad Libs at July 05, 2020 07:14 PM (BN/jk)

28 Boris of the AK shovel building fame makes a shovel 10/22 for Independence Day.
https://tinyurl.com/y74yykhe

Posted by: Oh no! Not the bees! at July 05, 2020 07:14 PM (N5dam)

29 Mr Weasel, maybe an idea for a gub thread , do slings and how they are used as an aid to accurate shooting. I run a running loop mostly on my competition rifles and target rifles.
Posted by: NZFrank with a M2 at July 05, 2020 07:12 PM (bgJ0E)
-----
You know, I've been thinking about that. I have never been a sling shooter, but it's a useful skill to have. The guy in the vid shows a little bit about the use at the end.

Posted by: Weasel at July 05, 2020 07:14 PM (MVjcR)

30 Yay Weasel!

NZFrank,

How's winter down there?

Posted by: I am the Shadout Mapes, the Housekeeper at July 05, 2020 07:14 PM (PiwSw)

31 Thanks for the content, Weasel. Valuable advice about de-escalation and best way to win a gunfight (don't be in one). Levels of force always start with talking. If you are at the point of drawing you done gone too far. I will draw if I have a knife or gun pulled on me, and I will shout 'drop it' as I'm putting finger to trigger. I NEVER want to pull a trigger on anybody but will if I have to. Goes with the job so to speak.

Posted by: Eromero at July 05, 2020 07:14 PM (XhWtx)

32 I was taught (some years ago) by some SF guys a patrol sling on M16 (with carry handle) is to take a GI sling and make a loop that goes through the carry handle. This makes a single point sling that is not fixed.

Actually pretty effective.

Posted by: blaster at July 05, 2020 07:15 PM (ZfRYq)

33 I had a situation a few years back where I would have been 100% justified to shoot a crack head that came into my garage asking to use my phone.

After I told him that no he could not use my phone and to leave my house he advanced on me while I was sitting on the floor working on my truck.

He was obviously hyped up on something as he was barefoot and wearing pajama bottoms and his pupils were as big as pancakes. After I got up and pushed him away he came at me again.

At that point I would have been 100% legally justified in shooting him but I did not. I shoved him away again and retreated into my house even though I had no legal obligation to do that.

Called the Cops and told them what happened and gave them a description while I stood guard on the door to the garage. He had ran off and eventually the Cops cuffed and stuffed him.

He is alive because I did not want to kill him.

Posted by: Mr. Scott (Formerly GWS) at July 05, 2020 07:15 PM (JUOKG)

34 Shadout Mapes, cold, wet , effing miserable but the range is still open.

Posted by: NZFrank with a M2 at July 05, 2020 07:16 PM (bgJ0E)

35 Don't get me wrong - I'm sure he's 100% correct on all the Ps and Qs. I just think it's too much clutter.

I'm resigned to the fact that - once I draw - life as I knew it is over. Any activist DA will do what he does, and any activist judge will cooperate, and if those streams cross I'll hang - figuratively. I'll eventually get a shot - literally.

But I'll carry anyway. And if its time - I'll take care of today's problem. Branca can analyze all my mistakes tomorrow. I don't need the mental clutter of worrying about tomorrow's problem while taking care of today's problem.
Posted by: Political Mad Libs at July 05, 2020 07:14 PM (BN/jk)
-----
Agreed, you sometimes only have a split second decision to make the call whether the situation warrants the almost certain aftermath.

Posted by: Weasel at July 05, 2020 07:17 PM (MVjcR)

36 Well after watching the video and reading the content on what transpired I would throw my 2 cents in that the women should have worked on deescalating the situation as best she can.I know that I am still new to firearms and still need more training before I would even think about carrying for protection. (which is impossible for me to do where I live).
I do know that carrying brings a load more responsibility and that one is now carrying something that can end the life of someone, something that CANNOT be taken back.
These are challenging times our Country is going through. We, the ones who believe in the rule of law and just want to live our lives will have to be more diligent and aware of what is going on around us. Especially since there are those now who feel they have to be confrontational with people who don't believe or act the way they do. They will do everything they can to antagonize and intimidate. More and more our heads will have to be on a swivel. And I will pray that those of us who are taking the responsibility to carry to protect themselves, their family and neighborhood never have to draw their weapon unless absolutely necessary.

Posted by: Scuba_Dude at July 05, 2020 07:18 PM (uyKdz)

37 @22 Can't resist: More than I would have thought. And few, if any, of them grew up around guns. As a Californian the gross tonnage of ignorance of guns could stun a team of oxen. This is especially true when my liberal friends want a gun and find out the hoops they have to jump through to get one.

Posted by: G at July 05, 2020 07:18 PM (dy/m/)

38 At that point I would have been 100% legally
justified in shooting him but I did not. I shoved him away again and
retreated into my house even though I had no legal obligation to do
that.

Called the Cops and told them what happened and gave them a
description while I stood guard on the door to the garage. He had ran
off and eventually the Cops cuffed and stuffed him.

He is alive because I did not want to kill him.

Posted by: Mr. Scott (Formerly GWS) at July 05, 2020 07:15 PM (JUOKG)

---
Laws like Stand Your Ground and Castle Doctrine are there to protect obviously innocent people in bad situations, but the best option is to try to get out of it altogether.

Why anyone would get into a heated argument with a stranger is beyond me.

Posted by: Former Gun Owner A.H. Lloyd at July 05, 2020 07:18 PM (cfSRQ)

39 Hey y'all! Thanks for the gun thread, Weasel, always appreciate it! Having a pretty good weekend myself, although it has not included getting to the range...

Posted by: Insomniac - Ex Cineribus Resurgo at July 05, 2020 07:19 PM (vtNpt)

40 The non-gun lady initiated the confrontation because the gun lady supposedly bumped into other lady's daughter. The other lady then started yelling and she and her daughter called the gun lady a raciest.

The gun lady and her husband went back and forth with the other lady and her daughter until the gun lady and her husband had enough, got into their vehicle, and backed out to start to drive away. The other lady then went to the back of the vehicle and hit it; stopping the gun lady and her husband from leaving. Then the gun lady got out with her gun.

Definitely the other lady and her daughter initiated the incident and exacerbated it. The gun lady probably should not have gotten out of the car with her gun. The other lady was not deterred by having a gun pointed at her at all. Both parties did not do their best in this situation. Fortunately no one was hurt.

Posted by: Lee at July 05, 2020 07:19 PM (pJSvF)

41 34 Shadout Mapes, cold, wet , effing miserable but the range is still open.
Posted by: NZFrank with a M2 at July 05, 2020 07:16 PM (bgJ0E)

I was down there mumble mumble years ago in March, so, beginning of winter. Flew into Auckland, got as far south as Christchurch. Beautiful country. Lord willing, I'd like to go back someday and go all the way to Invercargill.

Posted by: I am the Shadout Mapes, the Housekeeper at July 05, 2020 07:19 PM (PiwSw)

42 Posted by: Insomniac - Ex Cineribus Resurgo at July 05, 2020 07:19 PM (vtNpt)
---
you're welcome insom!

Posted by: Weasel at July 05, 2020 07:20 PM (MVjcR)

43 I find my conceal carrying to be very calming.

It's been ten years since my concealed carry class. The instructor put it like this: "Now if you are going down the road, and some guy is flipping you off and trying to run you off the road in road rage, because you are carrying, you can be calm. Why? Because YOU know there are limits the other guy can't cross. He doesn't know they are there. So you let him vent and engage in bad behavior. You can keep on going down the road just fine." For one example he had.

I find this to be extremely true. I can see situations happen around me and know because I am carrying, I can and will be as cool as cucumbers - and not just because the law says I must be with the responsibility of carrying. I'll be that way anyway, because, again, I know there are boundaries people around me cannot cross.

Now, it could be argued, if you know me or met me, that I don't need to carry. This being because by common consent, I am a big guy anyway, and some people find me intimidating as hell for that reason. And without knowing it I can give off a "don't fuck with me" vibe. (One time I was told by a cop I knew that in most cases, a cop would shoot me first and ask questions later, and such action would be justifiable - because I am bigger than most cops. Of course, I don't conduct myself in a way where that would ever be necessary and both of us knew that, but that was just an example he gave when we were discussing use of force and justification.) Nonetheless, I have been accosted by others on occasion.

The above incident could have been avoided by the woman just ignoring people and not give them the benefit of reaction. (I do this all the time. Back in 2009 I was filling up my truck at a gas station minding my own business when some black dude about ten years older than me just came up to me and unloaded some barely intelligible racist rant. I didn't GAF, and if I weren't wearing sunglasses, he might have seen the fact that, per the great GySgt Highway, "Sir, with all due respect, you are beginning to bore the hell out of me." I just tuned the idiot out. (But that incident and a few others convinced me that I needed to stop putting off my plans to get a CHL and that I needed to execute those plans. A year later I did so.)

The gun is a form of deterrence that should be used as an absolute last resort. We should hit the range with out guns and enjoy it, and the camaraderie the gun owners seem to have just by getting into shooting, and we should practice just in case we need it...all the while hoping and praying that we will never have to put our skills to use.

Posted by: Catch Thirty-Thr33 at July 05, 2020 07:21 PM (ejsiI)

44 -----
You know, I've been thinking about that. I have never been a sling shooter, but it's a useful skill to have. The guy in the vid shows a little bit about the use at the end.
Posted by: Weasel at July 05, 2020 07:14 PM (MVjcR)

Do eeet. I use the BAR slings cos they are a bit longer on things like Enfield Pattern 14 (Model 17 to you guys) and Lee Enfields for long range shoots when I want a leather sling.

Posted by: NZFrank with a M2 at July 05, 2020 07:21 PM (bgJ0E)

45 Our CCW instructor also emphasized the importance of being very very calm when carrying, and the critical importance of never being the aggressor.

Posted by: I am the Shadout Mapes, the Housekeeper at July 05, 2020 07:22 PM (PiwSw)

46 I just ordered seven different brands and loadings of 6.5x55 ammo from SG Ammo.

Going to make a very note-heavy study of the performance of each out of my M-77 Ruger African. I'll be sure to take pictures of each box of ammo, along with the resulting test-target for each.

If all goes well, I'll shoot no more than nine rounds out of each box, saving the rest back for a possible Stage II test, which might come into play if it transpires that I have the 'smithy do an action bedding job, as well as ensuring that the barrel is indeed, not being nudged by the stock anywhere along the way.

Now if only one the LabRadar chrono would roll out a super-duper price special, right?

Oh, and a thought for all of the shooters here that work out of "membership" ranges. It MIGHT be a good idea to have your club invest in a Lab Radar. A "Radar Day" at the range, with rangemasters ensuring everyone gets a fair number of rounds measured thereby, could be worth a bit extra $ fee, and a popular event to boot.

Meanwhile, my front porch, a cold beer and a fine cigar, await.

Seeya in the ONT, Horde!

(and thanks Weasel, for one of the more thoughtful Gun Threads, since there ever was a Gun Thread.)

Jim
Sunk New Dawn
Galveston, TX

Posted by: Jim at July 05, 2020 07:22 PM (QzJWU)

47 Weasel, another great gun thread. Hope you had a wonderful Independence Day.

Posted by: Quilter's Irish Death at July 05, 2020 07:22 PM (DjiZK)

48 Went to a new (to me) indoor range yesterday. Owned by a black family that love them some guns. Air conditioned range during this swampy Gulf Coast summer is wonderful. Ran the new Ruger Mark IV Hunter 22lr for the first time. Exceptional pistol, way more accuracy than I can hold. Trigger is quite good. Everybody wins. Is this a great country or what? Happy, Happy Fourth Day! ps Just missed buying a Springfield Hellcat (FDE color). I'm on the waiting list.

Posted by: Randall H at July 05, 2020 07:23 PM (iViqu)

49 Do eeet. I use the BAR slings cos they are a bit longer on things like Enfield Pattern 14 (Model 17 to you guys) and Lee Enfields for long range shoots when I want a leather sling.
Posted by: NZFrank with a M2 at July 05, 2020 07:21 PM (bgJ0E)
----
I'll add it to the list! Thanks

Posted by: Weasel at July 05, 2020 07:24 PM (MVjcR)

50 I'd like to go back someday and go all the way to Invercargill.
Posted by: I am the Shadout Mapes, the Housekeeper at July 05, 2020 07:19 PM (PiwSw)

Invergiggle?? Do you have six fingers and roll your R's?

Posted by: NZFrank with a M2 at July 05, 2020 07:24 PM (bgJ0E)

51 Great comment from Jen, and also many thanks for raising the issue of de-escalating confrontation whenever possible. I know I strive to do that, as do all mature people. For me, I would credit that to the result of having taken a beating in some completely unnecessary fights when I was 18 or 19, always involving alcohol, and slowly realizing that was an incredibly stupid thing to do.

It grieves me to see people of the younger generation, those in their 20's and 30's who should know better by now, run into screaming confrontations like moths to a porch light. Not just in this story, I have a daughter that age and see it in her and her friends. It's like they've all missed one of the most important lessons they needed to learn about growing up.

And as tensions rise, I see confrontations like the one mentioned her popping up all over now.

Posted by: Tom Servo at July 05, 2020 07:24 PM (V2Yro)

52 Well, now. Good sling vid. I've done the CMP shoot a couple of times, once with my AR with 20" bbl and once with my Gee Rand. No doubt, the sling is a force multiplier.
In the real world, I just do the "hasty sling" where my left bent elbow goes through the sling and my hand goes up to the fore end, making the sling run over the back of my hand. Pretty good stability and doesn't take all the sling knowledge.
Yes, I am not a purist.
Even better is a bipod.

Posted by: RI Red at July 05, 2020 07:24 PM (HQ9xd)

53 40
The non-gun lady initiated the confrontation because the gun lady
supposedly bumped into other lady's daughter. The other lady then
started yelling and she and her daughter called the gun lady a raciest.

Posted by: Lee at July 05, 2020 07:19 PM (pJSvF)

---
Never argue with angry people.

It only ends badly.

Posted by: Former Gun Owner A.H. Lloyd at July 05, 2020 07:24 PM (cfSRQ)

54 I am massively pro-2A, but having to pass a class to carry makes sense to me. Also, my LE friends, from PD to FBI all tell me DO NOT speak to the police at the scene if, God forbid, you have to use a gun. Give the required info, tell them you need to speak to your lawyer, and STFU.

Posted by: G at July 05, 2020 07:24 PM (dy/m/)

55 Hey Moron's, hope everyone had a great week. We're in the dog days of summer here. I've been clamping my beach chair umbrella to my shooting bench, it works great. A little shade in the desert is just the ticket.

Posted by: ck at July 05, 2020 07:25 PM (Gf0Po)

56 Did I miss weasel dog v.1 and v.2?

Posted by: Infidel at July 05, 2020 07:25 PM (u/msz)

57 Posted by: Jim at July 05, 2020 07:22 PM (QzJWU)
----
Thanks, Bro.

Posted by: Weasel at July 05, 2020 07:26 PM (MVjcR)

58 The lady in Orion Township, MI? I'd want a jury trial.

Posted by: clutch at July 05, 2020 07:26 PM (9UmRs)

59 Thanks for the video Weasel. I was really holding my breath that she did NOT pull that trigger. From the defense classes I have had I would just not said anything, gotten in the vehicle and driven away. If they tried to block me I would have run their ass over well before I drew my weapon.

Posted by: Norman Spiny at July 05, 2020 07:26 PM (5a33v)

60 This week was M1 carbine week. I have one made by Inland in 1943 with no bayonet lug and the old style flip sights and one from Quality Hardware also made in 1943 with a bayonet lug and the upgraded rear sight adjustable for windage and elevation.

I zeroed both at 25 and 100 yards then took them out to see how far they could hit. Both did fine out to 350 yards but after that it was tough sledding at 400, 500 and 600 yards. No hits at 400 or 500 but I did get a nice clang at 600 yards. I was holding about 7 feet over the target so I felt pretty lucky to get the one hit. I couldn't see the splash on the berm for my misses I figure due to the small size of the round at the 600 yard mark.

Rapid fire out to 150 yards was fun and these little carbines can place rounds quickly and easily on target at that distance.

Ian at Forgotten Weapons just did a nice M1 carbine vs. 1911 shoot and the M1 carbine out did the 1911 by Ian's standards for a personal defense weapon.

Here is a nice site for M1 Carbine info, etc.

https://tinyurl.com/y7qtcqk8

Posted by: Hairyback Guy at July 05, 2020 07:26 PM (Z+IKu)

61 Clean up on #56

Posted by: Scuba_Dude at July 05, 2020 07:26 PM (uyKdz)

62 43
I find my conceal carrying to be very calming.

Posted by: Catch Thirty-Thr33 at July 05, 2020 07:21 PM (ejsiI)

---
Same. Much less prone to anger, more relaxed and yet also more alert.

Posted by: Former Gun Owner A.H. Lloyd at July 05, 2020 07:27 PM (cfSRQ)

63 51 Great comment from Jen, and also many thanks for raising the issue of de-escalating confrontation whenever possible. I know I strive to do that, as do all mature people. For me, I would credit that to the result of having taken a beating in some completely unnecessary fights when I was 18 or 19, always involving alcohol, and slowly realizing that was an incredibly stupid thing to do.

It grieves me to see people of the younger generation, those in their 20's and 30's who should know better by now, run into screaming confrontations like moths to a porch light. Not just in this story, I have a daughter that age and see it in her and her friends. It's like they've all missed one of the most important lessons they needed to learn about growing up.

And as tensions rise, I see confrontations like the one mentioned her popping up all over now.
Posted by: Tom Servo at July 05, 2020 07:24 PM (V2Yro)

Maturity cares not about age. I have seen many middle aged people do idiotic things one would think would be the sole reserve of teenagers and 20 somethings.

Posted by: Catch Thirty-Thr33 at July 05, 2020 07:27 PM (ejsiI)

64 Did I miss weasel dog v.1 and v.2?
Posted by: Infidel at July 05, 2020 07:25 PM (u/msz)
----
LJ was in last weeks M1A video!

Posted by: Weasel at July 05, 2020 07:28 PM (MVjcR)

65 No range report this week. I am taking off this Friday and heading to the range rain or shine (hopefully more shine than rain), and who knows, maybe CBD might join me again to send some projectiles down range.
I also have my classes at the Sig Academy coming up next month. Looking forward to that!

Posted by: Scuba_Dude at July 05, 2020 07:28 PM (uyKdz)

66 Posted by: Quilter's Irish Death at July 05, 2020 07:22 PM (DjiZK)
----
Thanks QID! We did, and I hope you did too!

Posted by: Weasel at July 05, 2020 07:29 PM (MVjcR)

67 Invercargill.

The fastest Indian.

Posted by: Infidel at July 05, 2020 07:29 PM (u/msz)

68 Just got a vid from my Marine mate on his range in Utah. Warm, sunny and a bunch of people having fun. I was supposed to be running the long range school for the week there. Effing kung flu.
" Weeps silently"

Posted by: NZFrank with a M2 at July 05, 2020 07:29 PM (bgJ0E)

69 Invergiggle?? Do you have six fingers and roll your R's?
Posted by: NZFrank with a M2 at July 05, 2020 07:24 PM (bgJ0E)

So you're saying give it a pass? I just wanted to go as far south as I could.

Cheers!

Posted by: I am the Shadout Mapes, the Housekeeper at July 05, 2020 07:30 PM (PiwSw)

70 How many times has it been mentioned here about the stats of a gun preventing a crime / assault but it does not include those times when it was just pulled and prevented a crime? I'm not saying the lady was right in this instance but just think the comments are over cautious. To each his own.

Posted by: Can't resist temptation at July 05, 2020 07:30 PM (2DOZq)

71 Love the gun thread. Thanks for all the work you put in Weasel.

Does anyone have a link to the gun thread about advanced dialing in rifles re: loading and barrel harmonics and seating the cartridge? Can't find it in the archive.

Also, any additional info relating to barrel harmonics would be greatly appreciated.

Posted by: Thesokorus at July 05, 2020 07:30 PM (E4S6/)

72 "It was in this context the other day when someone wondered if their homeowners policy, specifically a liability umbrella policy, would start spewing cash in a self defense shooting."

What kind of Chicken shit is this? I asked that question. At no time did I characterize it in this way. Please. Do not ever put words in my mouth.

An umbrella policy can provide for attorney fees in the event of a lawsuit. I do believe a self-defense use of a firearm should" be covered. Just as a matter of principle. But that is not the world we live in.

Posted by: Common Tater at July 05, 2020 07:30 PM (mJRr3)

73 Great comment from Jen, and also many thanks for raising the issue of de-escalating confrontation whenever possible.

It depends. Spend critical seconds de-escalating, or doing the internal "will I win in court" debate, and your legal problems will take care of themselves. Because you'll never make it that far.

Paralysis by analysis can be fatal.

Posted by: Political Mad Libs at July 05, 2020 07:30 PM (BN/jk)

74 Posted by: Scuba_Dude at July 05, 2020 07:28 PM (uyKdz)
-----
Take notes at the Sig class so you can give us a report!

Posted by: Weasel at July 05, 2020 07:30 PM (MVjcR)

75 Part of the strategy of the PTB behind this great leap forward is to create martyrs, most of whom will be quite surprized. This shit will keep up until someone eats lead, then the grabbers will swoop in. It is a very perilous time to exercise 2A, the slightest misstep will be mischaracterized.

Posted by: Drink Like Vikings at July 05, 2020 07:31 PM (KRZaE)

76 54 I am massively pro-2A, but having to pass a class to carry makes sense to me. Also, my LE friends, from PD to FBI all tell me DO NOT speak to the police at the scene if, God forbid, you have to use a gun. Give the required info, tell them you need to speak to your lawyer, and STFU.
Posted by: G at July 05, 2020 07:24 PM (dy/m/)

One day we will all accept the truth: police officers CANNOT EVER BE TRUSTED.

(Another bit of advice I have read in a book of TX gun laws that I have on my shelf, that I bought at a range some time back: if you are in a situation that requires the use of a gun in self defense, by all means, call 911. Tell them what they need to know. And then HANG UP THE PHONE.)

Posted by: Catch Thirty-Thr33 at July 05, 2020 07:31 PM (ejsiI)

77 Take notes at the Sig class so you can give us a report!

Posted by: Weasel at July 05, 2020 07:30 PM (MVjcR)

Oh I will!!!!

Posted by: Scuba_Dude at July 05, 2020 07:31 PM (uyKdz)

78 Wonderful content, Weasel.

The part on the Michigan woman brings up two reactions.

First is the emotional. How dare that bitch threaten me and my family (or even my car) for no reason. Why shouldn't she and her teenage spawn face some trouble?

Second is the realistic response. The purpose of carrying is to keep me and my family alive and uninjured. I already know I would go with the realistic approach, as unsatisfying and unjust as doing so is.

Sometimes it sucks to be an adult.

Posted by: JTB at July 05, 2020 07:32 PM (7EjX1)

79 I'm not saying the lady was right in this instance but just think the comments are over cautious. To each his own.
Posted by: Can't resist temptation at July 05, 2020 07:30 PM (2DOZq)
------
Fair enough!

Posted by: Weasel at July 05, 2020 07:32 PM (MVjcR)

80 43 I find my conceal carrying to be very calming.

It's been ten years since my concealed carry class. The instructor put it like this: "Now if you are going down the road, and some guy is flipping you off and trying to run you off the road in road rage, because you are carrying, you can be calm. Why? Because YOU know there are limits the other guy can't cross. He doesn't know they are there. So you let him vent and engage in bad behavior. You can keep on going down the road just fine." For one example he had.

This^

And that situation your instructor described HAS happened to me (while carrying). I just ignored the road-rage jerk and let him pass on by.

Posted by: Norman Spiny at July 05, 2020 07:33 PM (5a33v)

81 Found this on gab a few minutes ago. Black panther is prepared to "go to war" but doesn't know how to clear a jam. This takes you to a fb page.

https://tinyurl.com/ycuvrc97

Posted by: Ex-ex at July 05, 2020 07:33 PM (RU4sa)

82 Also, any additional info relating to barrel harmonics would be greatly appreciated.
Posted by: Thesokorus at July 05, 2020 07:30 PM (E4S6/)
------
That's because your cruise director is a lazy SOB and hasn't updated the archives. I will do that tomorrow. Promise!

Posted by: Weasel at July 05, 2020 07:33 PM (MVjcR)

83 It's been a long time since I shot Service Rifle high power but as I recall, the rules at the time were that you could use either the 1917 sling or the canvas web sling and whichever you used, you had to have all the parts attached but you could configure them any way you wanted. One popular variation was the "no pulse" sling devised by Jim Owens (jarheadtop.com). I settled on a web sling turned around from the "right" way so that I could pull it up tight around my noodle-sized bicep with the buckle and then adjust the length with the clamp.

Posted by: Bob the Bilderberg at July 05, 2020 07:34 PM (qc+VF)

84
So you're saying give it a pass? I just wanted to go as far south as I could. Cheers!
Posted by: I am the Shadout Mapes, the Housekeeper at July 05, 2020 07:30 PM (PiwSw)

No, the further south you go the friendlier the people get. I was just jesting on the banjo playing element and the fact that they have a pronounced regional accent, the down-south town of Gore is pronounced Gorrrrrrrre.

Posted by: NZFrank with a M2 at July 05, 2020 07:35 PM (bgJ0E)

85 Range report: Went to a secure, undisclosed location for the Fourth of July and introduced my daughters to black powder.

The weapon was single-shot percussion cap gun I got from a pawn shop for $25 a few years ago. .44 caliber lead balls, 50 grains of black powder.

I suspect there was some dampness issues because the caps popped but the powder did nothing. After multiple attempts, we set it down on half-cock for a half an hour and then it finally was able to touch off.

My youngest thought it was great fun, which is is. *click* BOOM! and a huge cloud of smoke.

I also re-introduced them to shotguns and we obliterated water jugs with number 4 shot, buckshot and slugs. It was much fun.

Oh, and anyone who thinks a 20 gauge is insufficient for self-defense is certifiably insane. It's perfect for smaller folks like my girls and still hits like a sledgehammer.

Posted by: Former Gun Owner A.H. Lloyd at July 05, 2020 07:35 PM (cfSRQ)

86 Hey NZFrank. Where were you going to shoot in Utah? Will you be coming out in the future?

Posted by: ck at July 05, 2020 07:35 PM (Gf0Po)

87 Outside of those that have ben in combat, has anyone here ever been in a truly violent situation?

Posted by: Ben Had at July 05, 2020 07:35 PM (nudZs)

88 41 34 Shadout Mapes, cold, wet , effing miserable but the range is still open.
Posted by: NZFrank with a M2 at July 05, 2020 07:16 PM (bgJ0E)

I was down there mumble mumble years ago in March, so, beginning of winter. Flew into Auckland, got as far south as Christchurch. Beautiful country. Lord willing, I'd like to go back someday and go all the way to Invercargill.
Posted by: I am the Shadout Mapes, the Housekeeper at July 05, 2020 07:19 PM (PiwSw)

I made it to Australia (Sydney, Canberra, Melbourne), but not NZ. One day, though!

Posted by: Catch Thirty-Thr33 at July 05, 2020 07:35 PM (ejsiI)

89 Range report: None.

Black gal versus pregnant gal: It's easy to Monday morning quarterback but, with all that going on, tempers are getting short and people are really tired of having stand there and take it while they are getting shit on for no discernible reason.

As far as I'm concerned, no one got shot, which was about as good an outcome as can be expected, all things considered.

Smith & Wesson update: Much to my surprise, it's legal to for a private party ship a handgun back to the factory for warranty work in CA. So, the 686 is back at the factory.

Posted by: blake - semi lurker in marginal standing
at July 05, 2020 07:36 PM (WEBkv)

90 The situation in ABQ New Mexico where antifa was pulling down a statue and a counter protestor was attacked with a skateboard after being chased is interesting. Antifa guy was gut shot twice.
Counter protestor discharged his (legal CC) pistol 4 times , then put it on the ground and waited, kneeling for the PD.
I think he is being charged even tho' he is recorded running for his life, and enduring a beating with the skateboard.

Posted by: attilla isn't so bad, really at July 05, 2020 07:36 PM (w7KSn)

91 Well, this is the first time I've had a reason to post on the gub thread.... my husband decided it was time for us to consider getting firearms and CCW permits. Since we live in IL, however, the first thing we have to do is get a FOID card. You can apply online and my husband did so yesterday (the State Police, who handle applications, have 30 days to process 1st time FOID applications and they are really swamped, for obvious reasons). I was going to apply at the same time but hubby said I should wait at least a week or so because he was worried that both of us applying on the same day would raise some kind of red flag. Is this a valid concern?

Posted by: Secret Square at July 05, 2020 07:36 PM (9WuX0)

92
Apparently in addition to the murders the "youths"
smashed up Michigan Ave in Chicago last night. Second City Cop:

The already reeling Mag Mile was subjected to further indignities last night.

In the absence of fireworks, the community decided to take the Red Line
downtown and provide their own entertainment, beating anyone they could
find and breaking any newly installed glass they happened upon.

Pretty soon, the businesses are going to stop repairing the glass and leave completely.

UPDATE: And nary a peep out of the mainstream media types.

If you want to locate anything, you have to troll the Reddit.com pages
and perhaps buy a scanner. There were literally thousands of "yutes"
breaking windows and destroying parked cars, scaring yuppies all over
downtown.

The
only story I've found about what happened yesterday on Michigan Ave is a
woman was raped at Michigan and Huron at 7am. Good thing the local MFM decided not to cover any of it. That means it didn't really happen

Posted by: TheQuietMan at July 05, 2020 07:36 PM (FB+VM)

93 Outside of those that have ben in combat, has anyone here ever been in a truly violent situation?
Posted by: Ben Had at July 05, 2020 07:35 PM (nudZs)
----
Do ex-wives count?

Posted by: Weasel at July 05, 2020 07:36 PM (MVjcR)

94 87 Outside of those that have ben in combat, has anyone here ever been in a truly violent situation?
Posted by: Ben Had at July 05, 2020 07:35 PM (nudZs)

I had to prep for a colonoscopy. Does that count?

Posted by: I am the Shadout Mapes, the Housekeeper at July 05, 2020 07:37 PM (PiwSw)

95 well said, catch 33eee. I find ccw very calming, too. Because I am carrying I am consciously avoiding conflict and my radar is up. I am definitely not looking for a fight: rather, a path out of where I may be.
I'm resigned to the fact that if I absolutely last ditch must draw, there is a lawyer attached to each bullet.
I may have stolen that from Branca.

Posted by: RI Red at July 05, 2020 07:37 PM (HQ9xd)

96 Another very good book on the responsibilities attached to carrying is "In the Gravest Extreme" by Massad Ayoob, (available at Amazon.) Easy read, he pulls no punches.

Posted by: dad29 at July 05, 2020 07:37 PM (5QjOf)

97 79 I'm not saying the lady was right in this instance but just think the comments are over cautious. To each his own.
Posted by: Can't resist temptation at July 05, 2020 07:30 PM (2DOZq)
------
Fair enough!
Posted by: Weasel at July 05, 2020 07:32 PM (MVjcR)

In the end it all comes down to judgment calls.

Posted by: Catch Thirty-Thr33 at July 05, 2020 07:38 PM (ejsiI)

98 the thing about being pregnant is that the pregnancy hormones can make you very emotional

at the risk of sounding antedeluvial, where was her man who should have been protecting her and the baby?

Posted by: vmom 2020 at July 05, 2020 07:38 PM (OCRKH)

99 I was going to apply at the same time but hubby said I should wait at least a week or so because he was worried that both of us applying on the same day would raise some kind of red flag. Is this a valid concern?
Posted by: Secret Square at July 05, 2020 07:36 PM (9WuX0)
------------

After all that has happened, I think your husband is probably correct.

Posted by: blake - semi lurker in marginal standing
at July 05, 2020 07:38 PM (WEBkv)

100 Outside of those that have ben in combat, has anyone here ever been in a truly violent situation?
Posted by: Ben Had at July 05, 2020 07:35 PM (nudZs)

More than once. Extreme poverty is not racially specific, contrary to popular opinion.

And even when you get out of it - shit happens.

Posted by: Political Mad Libs at July 05, 2020 07:39 PM (BN/jk)

101 Weasel, no, not in this case.

Posted by: Ben Had at July 05, 2020 07:39 PM (nudZs)

102 Posted by: Secret Square at July 05, 2020 07:36 PM (9WuX0)
----
Howdy and welcome!! Anyone with experience in IL to help SS out?

Posted by: Weasel at July 05, 2020 07:39 PM (MVjcR)

103 Posted by: Ex-ex at July 05, 2020 07:33 PM (RU4sa)

Saw that, funny thing with all the posturing someone examined a few of the ARs they were carrying. They were .22lr and one guy's AR had a miss feed. Not saying they are a threat, but when the rubber hits the road they are going to be in a world of hurt.

Posted by: Quilter's Irish Death at July 05, 2020 07:40 PM (DjiZK)

104 90 The situation in ABQ New Mexico where antifa was pulling down a statue and a counter protestor was attacked with a skateboard after being chased is interesting. Antifa guy was gut shot twice.
Counter protestor discharged his (legal CC) pistol 4 times , then put it on the ground and waited, kneeling for the PD.
I think he is being charged even tho' he is recorded running for his life, and enduring a beating with the skateboard.

Posted by: attilla isn't so bad, really at July 05, 2020 07:36 PM (w7KSn)

Given the government in NM this sadly is not surprising.

Posted by: Catch Thirty-Thr33 at July 05, 2020 07:40 PM (ejsiI)

105 So one thing I have been doing is thinking about my next purchase. I am going to put it off until December or so for financial reasons.It looks like my next purchase will be a shotgun. A nice 12 gauge semi-automatic to use for skeet shooting (and home defense if necessary).And if I do purchase said firearm I will be purchasing a gun safe.I have a closet in my 2nd bedroom that I can install it and already know the make and model I want will fit into said closet.

Posted by: Scuba_Dude at July 05, 2020 07:40 PM (uyKdz)

106 Outside of those that have ben in combat, has anyone here ever been in a truly violent situation?
Posted by: Ben Had at July 05, 2020 07:35 PM (nudZs)
----------

I have not.

However, I do not expect that situation to continue.

Posted by: blake - semi lurker in marginal standing
at July 05, 2020 07:41 PM (WEBkv)

107 Outside of those that have ben in combat, has anyone here ever been in a truly violent situation?
Posted by: Ben Had at July 05, 2020 07:35 PM (nudZs)

I've been shot at but not hit outside of a bar. Had wall plaster get in my hair from the bullets hitting the wall behind me but not violently. So to answer your question, no.

Posted by: Can't resist temptation at July 05, 2020 07:41 PM (2DOZq)

108 The best advice for a gun safe is put them on the ground floor.
In case of fire, you don't want the safe falling from the 2nd floor on to a fireman.

Posted by: attilla isn't so bad, really at July 05, 2020 07:42 PM (w7KSn)

109 Thanks for the video about the 1907 sling. A while back I learned to use a sling of some type but it's been some time and I've forgotten the details. The times I used one properly it made a huge difference. Even at the bench, a correctly used sling improves accuracy. As I do more with my military surplus rifles, it should help.

BTW, Amazon carries several brands of the 1907 sling for a little over twenty bucks. I didn't see any at Cabelas or MidwayUSA, at least by that name.

Posted by: JTB at July 05, 2020 07:42 PM (7EjX1)

110 I would like to ask an off topic question.
I view this site on an iPad. Had it for 10 years and it is great for e mail and web browsing out on the patio.
Lately, I have had serious issues with AOS .mu .nu
It will not load and I get a message, saying that the site is reloading because of an issue.
It often times out.
The paranoid side of me thinks this is Apple restricting access due to the political flavor of the site.
I am not an Apple guy, but got this as a gift and it really is a nice piece of hardware, better than my android tablet.
Anyone else see any of this lately

Posted by: Gunslinger at July 05, 2020 07:42 PM (0EC+8)

111 at the risk of sounding antedeluvial, where was her man who should have been protecting her and the baby?
Posted by: vmom 2020 at July 05, 2020 07:38 PM (OCRKH)
-------------

Yeah, I would have been between my wife and those miscreants in the video. But, I'm armed and no longer young, so, probably would be given the benefit of a doubt, had I decided I needed to draw.

Posted by: blake - semi lurker in marginal standing
at July 05, 2020 07:42 PM (WEBkv)

112 105 So one thing I have been doing is thinking about my next purchase. I am going to put it off until December or so for financial reasons.It looks like my next purchase will be a shotgun. A nice 12 gauge semi-automatic to use for skeet shooting (and home defense if necessary).And if I do purchase said firearm I will be purchasing a gun safe.I have a closet in my 2nd bedroom that I can install it and already know the make and model I want will fit into said closet.
Posted by: Scuba_Dude at July 05, 2020 07:40 PM (uyKdz)

Over-under FTW

Posted by: Catch Thirty-Thr33 at July 05, 2020 07:43 PM (ejsiI)

113 Posted by: JTB at July 05, 2020 07:42 PM (7EjX1)
----
My pleasure, JTB.

Posted by: Weasel at July 05, 2020 07:43 PM (MVjcR)

114 Ben Had. Once. Around a lot of people. It was getting ugly, I backed away quietly back to the camp site. I wasn't close when shots were fired, and was calm when talking to police later. The less said the better. It's usually not good when 1%'ers show up.

Posted by: Infidel at July 05, 2020 07:43 PM (u/msz)

115 Any advice is appreciated. I am totally new to this, never picked up a gun in my life save for one time shooting clay pigeons on a camping trip decades ago. Hubby was a Desert Storm Navy vet who learned to handle their standard issue handgun but other than that we are starting basically from scratch.

Posted by: Secret Square at July 05, 2020 07:43 PM (9WuX0)

116 Called the police to have them check on what sounded like reports from a rifle. They told me all officers are out on emergency calls.
I said "Well it would be ashame if free citizens went out to investigate and take care of the problem. 911 woman said "I don't know what you are talking about." I said "OooKaaaaY and thanked her."

We are are by ourselves.

Posted by: Jukin the Deplorable and Totally Unserious at July 05, 2020 07:43 PM (pw+jk)

117 And thanks to the left, we will be seeing a lot more videos like that over the next few months unfortunately.

And however the election turns out, It just might be even worse.

Buckle up, buy guns and LOTS of ammo.

Posted by: Norman Spiny at July 05, 2020 07:44 PM (5a33v)

118 I was shot at (to no result) many years ago by a girlfriend who was pissed at me.
I decided to not hang around until her aim improved...

Posted by: attilla isn't so bad, really at July 05, 2020 07:44 PM (w7KSn)

119 Anyone else see any of this lately
Posted by: Gunslinger at July 05, 2020 07:42 PM (0EC+

Turn off JavaScript.

Posted by: Political Mad Libs at July 05, 2020 07:44 PM (BN/jk)

120 Posted by: Scuba_Dude at July 05, 2020 07:40 PM (uyKdz)

Benelli M-4. You will not be disappointed.

Posted by: Quilter's Irish Death at July 05, 2020 07:44 PM (DjiZK)

121 If I believed I needed, or might need, a firearm, I would not wait till December.

Posted by: Common Tater at July 05, 2020 07:44 PM (mJRr3)

122 My CCDW class here in KY was over 8 years ago. To this day I carry about 90% of the time. After leaving the house, I almost forget I have a firearm. Almost.

I see a lot of stupid shit. On the roads. In stores. Wherever.

I have only "fingered" my weapon once. By that I mean actually put fingers on it while engaged with a threat.

Close quarters, agitated person, possible harm, etc. Turned out OK, but left me shaken. In a somewhat good way.

Posted by: Martini Farmer - Civilly Disobedient at July 05, 2020 07:44 PM (3H9h1)

123 Ben Had. Once. Around a lot of people. It was getting ugly, I backed away quietly back to the camp site. I wasn't close when shots were fired, and was calm when talking to police later. The less said the better. It's usually not good when 1%'ers show up.
Posted by: Infidel at July 05, 2020 07:43 PM (u/msz)
-------------------

Excellent situational awareness. Very impressive you knew when to skedaddle.

Posted by: blake - semi lurker in marginal standing
at July 05, 2020 07:45 PM (WEBkv)

124 Posted by: Gunslinger at July 05, 2020 07:42 PM (0EC+

-----
I've been having problems with pages loading on my iPad since the big crash a couple of weeks ago. Someone mentioned on the Food Thread that an ad blocker app might help.

Posted by: Weasel at July 05, 2020 07:45 PM (MVjcR)

125 at the risk of sounding antedeluvial, where was her man who should have been protecting her and the baby?

Posted by: vmom 2020 at July 05, 2020 07:38 PM (OCRKH)

-------------

Yeah, I would have been between my wife and those miscreants in the
video. But, I'm armed and no longer young, so, probably would be given
the benefit of a doubt, had I decided I needed to draw.

Posted by: blake - semi lurker in marginal standing
---
Yes, the man should have stepped up, hushed his wife and apologized for her, wished the aggrieved party a good day and firmly taken the Missus away from the situation.

Later on he would have gotten crap, but she'd be in a lot less trouble.

Posted by: Former Gun Owner A.H. Lloyd at July 05, 2020 07:45 PM (cfSRQ)

126 Over-under FTW

Posted by: Catch Thirty-Thr33 at July 05, 2020 07:43 PM (ejsiI)

Nah, the over-under is a ways down the road.

Posted by: Scuba_Dude at July 05, 2020 07:46 PM (uyKdz)

127 105 So one thing I have been doing is thinking about
my next purchase. I am going to put it off until December or so for
financial reasons.It looks like my next purchase will be a shotgun. A
nice 12 gauge semi-automatic to use for skeet shooting (and home defense
if necessary).And if I do purchase said firearm I will be purchasing a
gun safe.I have a closet in my 2nd bedroom that I can install it and
already know the make and model I want will fit into said closet.

Posted by: Scuba_Dude at July 05, 2020 07:40 PM (uyKdz)

Over-under FTW

Posted by: Catch Thirty-Thr33 at July 05, 2020 07:43 PM (ejsiI)

===
Yes for trap or skeet. But boy oh boy they are expensive. approx 1600 up.

Posted by: Jukin the Deplorable and Totally Unserious at July 05, 2020 07:46 PM (pw+jk)

128 Disclaimer, I have been in a life threatening situation and the only thing that stopped it was my being more violent.

No guns were involved but a lot of razor blades.

Posted by: Ben Had at July 05, 2020 07:46 PM (nudZs)

129 Posted by: Secret Square at July 05, 2020 07:36 PM (9WuX0)

No reason for concern. Put your app in now. You and your husband could be 60-90 days for your FOID. They are badly overwhelmed.

Example: my CCW expired March 30, 2020. I applied for the renewal as soon as I could: December 1, 2019. I got the new card May 1, 2020.

Don't wait.

Posted by: Baron Munchausen at July 05, 2020 07:46 PM (C1NyB)

130

I'm checking the Chicago news about the "wilding" that happened on Michigan Ave last night. Not a word about it. Apparently that's not news BUT an Illinois car museum not getting rid of the Dukes of Hazzard car is

Posted by: TheQuietMan at July 05, 2020 07:47 PM (FB+VM)

131 Benelli M-4. You will not be disappointed.

Posted by: Quilter's Irish Death at July 05, 2020 07:44 PM (DjiZK)

Ummm, that price kinda hurts!!! Maybe a used one?

Posted by: Scuba_Dude at July 05, 2020 07:47 PM (uyKdz)

132 Any advice is appreciated. I am totally new to this, never picked up a gun in my life save for one time shooting clay pigeons on a camping trip decades ago. Hubby was a Desert Storm Navy vet who learned to handle their standard issue handgun but other than that we are starting basically from scratch.
Posted by: Secret Square at July 05, 2020 07:43 PM (9WuX0)
------
All of a sudden you guys don't have opinions?! C'mon! Let's help SS out!

Posted by: Weasel at July 05, 2020 07:47 PM (MVjcR)

133 Ace works on my Model T iPad.

Posted by: klaftern at July 05, 2020 07:47 PM (RuIsu)

134 There was no de-escalating that situation with words. That woman (the aggressor) and her daughter were obviously not candidates for reasonable discourse. Driving away was the only option. In a way, I can sort of understand saying "I've had enough of this miscreant's bullshit" but unfortunately the kind of irrational, hyper-aggressive attitude on display here by the "perp" is very much a part of our lives here in 2020. It doesn't feel good to have to take that kind of abuse but I guess it beats the alternative. Sad.

Posted by: Notorious BFD at July 05, 2020 07:49 PM (EgshT)

135
Also, any additional info relating to barrel harmonics would be greatly appreciated.
Posted by: Thesokorus at July 05, 2020 07:30 PM (E4S6/)

Please be aware that there is positive and negative compensation when talking about barrel harmonics and interior ballistics. For long range target shooting an action/ barrel that has positive compensation is preferable to to a negative compensation combo. For example strangely enough, a Lee Enfield tends to have positive compensation (the bullet leaves the muzzle on the up or positive flick of the barrel harmonics) while a Mauser type tends to have a negative (flick down) compensation. So for shorts (300 to 800 meters) use the stiff heavy action barrel combo and for the longs (900 to 1200 meters), use the lighter action combo (Lee Enfield) .It sounds counter intuitive but experience has shown it seems to work. YMMV.

Posted by: NZFrank with a M2 at July 05, 2020 07:49 PM (bgJ0E)

136 Posted by: Secret Square at July 05, 2020 07:43 PM (9WuX0)

What county are you in? I might be able to help, or get you connected to someone.

Email in my nic, if you don't want to post here.

Posted by: Baron Munchausen at July 05, 2020 07:49 PM (C1NyB)

137 That's because your cruise director is a lazy SOB and hasn't updated the archives. I will do that tomorrow. Promise!
Posted by: Weasel at July 05, 2020 07:33 PM (MVjcR)

Thanks! It was fascinating stuff. I appreciate it.

Posted by: Thesokorus at July 05, 2020 07:49 PM (X+hGU)

138 115
Any advice is appreciated. I am totally new to this, never picked up a
gun in my life save for one time shooting clay pigeons on a camping trip
decades ago. Hubby was a Desert Storm Navy vet who learned to handle
their standard issue handgun but other than that we are starting
basically from scratch.

Posted by: Secret Square at July 05, 2020 07:43 PM (9WuX0)

---
Have you considered a revolver?

Posted by: Former Gun Owner A.H. Lloyd at July 05, 2020 07:49 PM (cfSRQ)

139 I think the advice to go to a range and fire several different guns to see to which you like is still good.
Definitely practice before you need to fire in anger.

Posted by: attilla isn't so bad, really at July 05, 2020 07:49 PM (w7KSn)

140 110 I would like to ask an off topic question.
I view this site on an iPad. Had it for 10 years and it is great for e mail and web browsing out on the patio.
Lately, I have had serious issues with AOS .mu .nu
It will not load and I get a message, saying that the site is reloading because of an issue.
It often times out.
The paranoid side of me thinks this is Apple restricting access due to the political flavor of the site.
I am not an Apple guy, but got this as a gift and it really is a nice piece of hardware, better than my android tablet.
Anyone else see any of this lately

This happens all the time on my iphone and ipad. The site works perfectly on my Windows desktop and Fire tablet.

Posted by: Norman Spiny at July 05, 2020 07:49 PM (5a33v)

141 Disclaimer, I have been in a life threatening situation and the only thing that stopped it was my being more violent.

Agreed. All this talk about "de-escalation" runs counter to everything I've ever seen.

Once Party A wants a conflict - you'll either flee or oblige them. Life is not an after school special where witty banter or a heartfelt soliloquy wins the day.

Posted by: Political Mad Libs at July 05, 2020 07:50 PM (BN/jk)

142 121
If I believed I needed, or might need, a firearm, I would not wait till December.

Posted by: Common Tater at July 05, 2020 07:44 PM (mJRr3)

Oh I have a really nice Sig Sauer P226 Legion and a Savage 110 in .308 so I am covered there. ;-)

Posted by: Scuba_Dude at July 05, 2020 07:50 PM (uyKdz)

143 Given the current environment, I am not sure gun lady did have a ton of better options. The police have proved to be zero help recently in situations where black people are getting in white people's space and threatening them (they have also proven useless when black people are actively assaulting/shooting white people... at least until the assault/shooting has already occurred). She would have had to get out of the car to go back inside and subjected herself to the very real possibility of being assaulted again since the black woman had already grabbed her once.

It is easy to say this woman had a ton of other options but you can tell from the fear in her voice that she felt very threatened. I am not at all sure she was wrong.

Posted by: redbanzai the Southerner at July 05, 2020 07:50 PM (nAiE/)

144 Yo!

Fresh

Posted by: Yo! at July 05, 2020 07:50 PM (s2Zir)

145 Hiya.

And Gunga la Gunga !

Posted by: JT at July 05, 2020 07:50 PM (arJlL)

146 Outside of those that have ben in combat, has anyone here ever been in a truly violent situation?

yes

Posted by: deplorable unperson - refuse to accept the Mask of the Beast at July 05, 2020 07:51 PM (3SIUH)

147 Hello. This is long but I wanted to quote the last Virginia Citizens Defense League email that might help the discussion. The comments are from a former cop and 2A defender.

- -

Members Mike J. and Rick E. suggested that it would be useful to discuss what an armed or unarmed citizen should do during a violent confrontation by a mob. I agree.

NOTE: I am not giving anyone legal advice, just my thoughts on the subject. Such situations depend on the exact circumstances and there can be more than one way to handle any given situation. This is not meant to be a definitive discussion, but food for thought.

Let's look at the use of deadly force for self-defense first:

1) Virginia is a stand your ground state. But you must be innocent to stand your ground when using deadly force. If you in any way contributed to the conflict (such as confronting, yelling at, or threatening the other person), then you must retreat, indicate you give up the fight, and deadly-force can only be used once you can retreat no more.

2) Deadly force can only be used if a reasonable person in the same situation would believe themselves in imminent danger of being killed or grievously hurt (broken bones, disfigurement, lost of body parts, sexual assault, etc.).

3) Even if the attackers are not armed, if you are outnumbered or are facing someone who is physically much stronger and bigger than you, that is considered "disparity of force" and can justify the use of deadly force as long as you reasonably believe you are in imminent danger of being killed or grievously hurt and you are innocent or have retreated as far as you can, if not.

4) Someone merely yelling threats, no matter how vile, does not justify deadly force. Someone threatening you with a weapon, but is not able to attack you with that weapon (like someone holding a knife on the other side of door or fence) does not justify your use of deadly force. Deadly force can be used if your life is being threatened, the person has the ability to carry out the threat (armed or has a disparity of force advantage), and is in a position where you are subject to that deadly force actually being used against you.

5) A vehicle can be used as a weapon and would be considered the use of deadly force.

6) While you are not required to retreat from a deadly attack if you are innocent, if you can retreat safely, do so! The only fight you are guaranteed of winning is the one you never get into.

Now let's look at some scenarios that Mike specifically asked about. If you stay situationally aware of what's going on around you, hopefully you could avoid getting into one of these situations. But it could still happen. My comments are in blue:

1. An unarmed person in a vehicle has their vehicle surrounded by a mob, preventing them from leaving the area and the mob:

voices threats of violence against the occupants.

-Deadly force is not justified. I would lay on the car horn and begin rolling forward slowly to get out of the area. If someone is standing in front of the car and ignoring the blaring horn, I would let the car push them out of the way as it rolls forward. Once there is no one left in front of the vehicle, I'd then speed off and call the police when in a safe place.

physically attacks/damages the vehicle's windshield or windows.

- If they are merely trying to damage the vehicle, deadly force is not justified. I'd continue blaring the horn and rolling slowly forward to get out of the area.

breaks into the vehicle, attempts to pull a person from the vehicle, or is brandishing a firearm.

- Due to disparity of force and the possibility of weapons being used, all of those scenarios I would consider to justify my use of deadly force in self-defense. I'd lay on the horn and floor the gas pedal to get out of the area as fast as possible. Anybody standing in front of the vehicle to block me in is going to get run over and I'm going to keep driving until I am safe and then call the police.

2. Same scenario as #1, above, but there are children in the vehicle and the adult is armed

This I would handle the same as #1. The presence of the child, or me being armed, changes nothing. The best weapon I have is still the vehicle itself to get me away from the mob. My gun would only come into play if my vehicle is disabled and the mob breaks into the vehicle, attempts to pull a person from the vehicle, or is brandishing a firearm.

3. An armed person (w/ or w/o children) on the street is surrounded by a mob and the mob begins to:

- voice threats of violence and prevents them from leaving the area.

Unless a weapon is being brandished and you are not under an actual attack by multiple individuals, deadly force is not justified. Don't be confrontational as you try to move out of the crowd. Indicate you don't want trouble, but just want to get home. Much like dealing with a bear, don't run and trigger a chase instinct in the crowd. One option that you should consider carefully if the mob won't move to let you through would be to quietly and matter-of-factly tell the people blocking your path that you are armed and you don't want to hurt anyone, but you also want to leave the area. That is not a use of deadly force or brandishing, just a verbal statement and it might be enough for them to clear a path.

grabs anyone in your party.

- If the grab is not violent, see previous comment. If violent see next comment.

physically attacks the armed individual or one of their party.

- Due to disparity of force, you are now in deadly force territory. It's time to begin shooting bad guys (no warning shots), starting with the ones nearest you. Brandishing might stop the crowd without having to shoot, but that is dangerous as you could be disarmed by bad guys if they are too close. After a shot or two, the crowd will have a tendency to disappear at something just short of the speed of light. Once the threat has ended DO NOT continue firing. Do NOT shoot any fleeing person, even if they were one of the original attackers. Keep your head on a swivel, watching for anyone trying to come up from behind to disarm you. Not likely, but possible. Get out of the area and, when in a safe place, call the police.

Posted by: WitchDoktor, turns out lots of people give a damn! at July 05, 2020 07:51 PM (4k/Uz)

148 Thanks! It was fascinating stuff. I appreciate it.
Posted by: Thesokorus at July 05, 2020 07:49 PM (X+hGU)
-----
You're welcome! My pleasure. You're also welcome to email me anytime.

Posted by: Weasel at July 05, 2020 07:51 PM (MVjcR)

149 115 Any advice is appreciated. I am totally new to this, never picked up a gun in my life save for one time shooting clay pigeons on a camping trip decades ago. Hubby was a Desert Storm Navy vet who learned to handle their standard issue handgun but other than that we are starting basically from scratch.
Posted by: Secret Square at July 05, 2020 07:43 PM (9WuX0)

I'm actually impressed with your attitude and choice of action.

Even with some gun experience, you and spouse are choosing to start from the beginning with training and education. That is really smart.

After all, except for this WuFlu year, even the multi-million dollar baseball pros go through spring training every year. They start off by working the same baseball drills they were doing in Little League.

Yet, we see even multi-millionaire 3rd basemen fumble a simple scoop, or overthrow the 1st baseman.

It's just good sense to learn and repeat. There is no downside.

Posted by: LeftCoast Dawg at July 05, 2020 07:51 PM (sy5kK)

150 Michigan gun lady or St Louis couple on their lawn

Posted by: Yo! at July 05, 2020 07:51 PM (s2Zir)

151 Yeah, I would have been between my wife and those miscreants in the video. But, I'm armed and no longer young, so, probably would be given the benefit of a doubt, had I decided I needed to draw.
Posted by: blake - semi lurker in marginal standing
at July 05, 2020 07:42 PM (WEBkv)

Reminds of the story my CHL instructor told about he and his wife returning to their car in the store parking lot when he was confronted by a guy with a knife demanding his wallet. He said he calmly told the guy he should rethink his demand and pointed to his wife who was in her ' take out robber' stance. The guy took off of course. ( the wife was a competitive shooter too though the robber didn't know she wouldn't miss)

Posted by: Can't resist temptation at July 05, 2020 07:52 PM (2DOZq)

152 Hi NZFrank!

Mac at The Military Channel did a review of New Zealand's new military rifle, the LMT MARS-L.

https://tinyurl.com/y9zc9xzu

What are they going to do with all those Steyr AUGs?

Posted by: Hairyback Guy at July 05, 2020 07:52 PM (Z+IKu)

153 Outside of those that have ben in combat, has anyone here ever been in a truly violent situation?

yes

Posted by: deplorable unperson - refuse to accept the Mask of the Beast at July 05, 2020 07:51 PM (3SIUH)

===
Many times but not with firearms. Only once with knives.

Posted by: Jukin the Deplorable and Totally Unserious at July 05, 2020 07:53 PM (pw+jk)

154 There was no de-escalating that situation with words. That woman (the aggressor) and her daughter were obviously not candidates for reasonable discourse. Driving away was the only option. In a way, I can sort of understand saying "I've had enough of this miscreant's bullshit" but unfortunately the kind of irrational, hyper-aggressive attitude on display here by the "perp" is very much a part of our lives here in 2020. It doesn't feel good to have to take that kind of abuse but I guess it beats the alternative. Sad.
Posted by: Notorious BFD at July 05, 2020 07:49 PM (EgshT)

Exactly.

Posted by: Norman Spiny at July 05, 2020 07:53 PM (5a33v)

155 Disclaimer, I have been in a life threatening situation and the only thing that stopped it was my being more violent.

No guns were involved but a lot of razor blades.
Posted by: Ben Had at July 05, 2020 07:46 PM (nudZs)
------------

Yeah, we're in a strange area right now: We're on our back foot, see above video, where we can be threatened and if we get them to back down, we get in trouble.

At some point, I think there will be a confrontation like the above, only it will involve someone who has neither the time nor the patience to deal with it, and will go max violence immediately.

Posted by: blake - semi lurker in marginal standing
at July 05, 2020 07:53 PM (WEBkv)

156 Well, I lived in IL for many years, always had an FOID, I think of it as a relatively routine matter that the State Police handle routinely.
Assuming you dotted i's and crossed t's on your paperwork, and have no criminal record or warrants, should be no problem.
That said, these days no one has any idea of what might trip a red flag of some kind, so I cannot fault your thinking on staggering the applications by a few days.

Your FOID needs to be in your wallet at all times, as being in possession of a gun or ammo without one is presumptively a violation of the law, or so I always understood it.

Welcome to the world of being an Armed Citizen !

Posted by: the_sock_rat_eez, we are being gaslighted 24/365 at July 05, 2020 07:53 PM (0IMgo)

157 91
Well, this is the first time I've had a reason to post on the gub
thread.... my husband decided it was time for us to consider getting
firearms and CCW permits. Since we live in IL, however, the first thing
we have to do is get a FOID card. You can apply online and my husband
did so yesterday (the State Police, who handle applications, have 30
days to process 1st time FOID applications and they are really swamped,
for obvious reasons). I was going to apply at the same time but hubby
said I should wait at least a week or so because he was worried that
both of us applying on the same day would raise some kind of red flag.
Is this a valid concern?

I'm in Crook County and it took 6 months to renew my FOID card online. I think they're slow walking the process on purpose. Also, I've read that if you don't give the exact info like height and weight online as is on your drivers license they'll turn you down as a sort of trap. I did take a selfy with my phone for the pic and it went through. I don't know about waiting a week. Anything is possible here.

Posted by: dartist at July 05, 2020 07:53 PM (+ya+t)

158 Posted by: Quilter's Irish Death at July 05, 2020 07:40 PM (DjiZK)

Can't say I'd like to go to war with my .22, but I'm good to about 150 yards on a 12" target with hard sights.

And i saw a video a while back with a guy shooting gelatin at 100 yards getting about 18"of penetration.

Posted by: Ex-ex at July 05, 2020 07:53 PM (RU4sa)

159 I would encourage newcomers to firearms to listen to Tom Gresham's "Guntalk" radio/podcast program. They are archived going back quite a ways, focus on the beginner or new to firearms episodes. Great discussions, guests, callers.

Posted by: Common Tater at July 05, 2020 07:54 PM (mJRr3)

160 And they both are going to lose their guns, including their home
protection weapons in Missouri while this legal battle goes on.

the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.

Good times...good times...

Posted by: deplorable unperson - refuse to accept the Mask of the Beast at July 05, 2020 07:54 PM (3SIUH)

161 ---
Have you considered a revolver?
Posted by: Former Gun Owner A.H. Lloyd at

I love my wheel gun.

Also, pregnant women and there hormones should not be taunted. Not making excuses for anyone in that uncivilized confrontation.

Posted by: Infidel at July 05, 2020 07:54 PM (u/msz)

162 Disclaimer, I have been in a life threatening situation and the only thing that stopped it was my being more violent.

No guns were involved but a lot of razor blades.
Posted by: Ben Had at July 05, 2020 07:46 PM (nudZs)

---

Had to call the MPs on my parents when I was 13.

Mom chasing my dad around the house with a loaded .38 kinda forced my hand.

Posted by: SMH at July 05, 2020 07:54 PM (RU4sa)

163 I was going to apply at the same time but hubby said I should wait at least a week or so because he was worried that both of us applying on the same day would raise some kind of red flag. Is this a valid concern?

Posted by: Secret Square at July 05, 2020 07:36 PM (9WuX0)

-

It may or may not be a valid concern, but, if it's just the difference of a week in what might already be a 90 day wait, hold off out of respect for your husband.

It will also reduce any "I told you so" moments in case he's right.

Posted by: Charles Darwin Doing the Humpty Dance on the Interstate at July 05, 2020 07:54 PM (kc5DY)

164 Power your iPhone and iPad off for 5 minutes and see if that helps

Posted by: Yo! at July 05, 2020 07:55 PM (s2Zir)

165 146
Outside of those that have ben in combat, has anyone here ever been in a truly violent situation?

A few times, yes.

Posted by: dartist at July 05, 2020 07:56 PM (+ya+t)

166 Rifle day Friday with 2 M1s - Garand and carbine. Was happy with the results at 100 and 200 given my astigmatism. Went indoors today and was more that happy with the results with a Sig P210. Practice and patience pay off in the end.

Posted by: Panhandler at July 05, 2020 07:56 PM (S/rwf)

167 Posted by: SMH at July 05, 2020 07:54 PM (RU4sa)

holy cow SMH

Posted by: vmom 2020 at July 05, 2020 07:57 PM (OCRKH)

168 86 Hey NZFrank. Where were you going to shoot in Utah? Will you be coming out in the future?
Posted by: ck at July 05, 2020 07:35 PM (Gf0Po)

Ephraim.
I try to get to the US at least twice a year (always for SHOT Show) with reciprocal visits from my Yank friends but currently its very difficult, that's why I missed the range shoot this time.

Posted by: NZFrank with a M2 at July 05, 2020 07:57 PM (bgJ0E)

169
g'early evenin', 'rons

Posted by: AltonJackson at July 05, 2020 07:57 PM (C/2Wn)

170 I view this site on an iPad. Had it for 10 years and it is great for e mail and web browsing out on the patio.
Lately, I have had serious issues with AOS .mu .nu

I'm using an iPad 2 that's about eight years old. Apple hasn't supported it with iOS updates in several years now. I do sometimes have problems loading ace and other sites with the Safari browser. Either turning wifi off and on to force it to reconnect or quitting and restarting Safari helps.

Posted by: Bob the Bilderberg at July 05, 2020 07:57 PM (qc+VF)

171 Any advice is appreciated. I am totally new to this, never picked up a

gun in my life save for one time shooting clay pigeons on a camping trip

decades ago. Hubby was a Desert Storm Navy vet who learned to handle

their standard issue handgun but other than that we are starting

basically from scratch.

Posted by: Secret Square at July 05, 2020 07:43 PM (9WuX0)

---
get thee to a "Women on Target" event near you.

by women, for women, so no testosterone around to screw things up.

morning is all class w*rk, were they explain all the lingo and the standard safety precautions.

after lunch, you go out to the firing line, where you are one on one with someone to walk you through the process. there may be males about, but they WANT you to enjoy the experience and come back for more, so there won't be any chest thumping or assholishness.

then, before you buy, find a range nearby that has a variety of firearms to rent, or a neighbor who will bring some to the range for you to try, assuming your state hasn't made that illegal.

RL e-mail in nick, if you want further suggestions off line.

Posted by: redc1c4 at July 05, 2020 07:58 PM (d/JTO)

172 Thanks for the encouragement. Once we get FOIDs the next steps are 1) decide what gun to buy and 2) get CCW training. I would have to do 16 hours (not a typo) as a beginner; DH would only have to do 8 hrs since he is a veteran. He's suggested something along the lines of a Colt 45, Beretta or Sig Sauer simply because that's what Navy and Marines use, or did back in the day, but all suggestions are welcome.

Posted by: Secret Square at July 05, 2020 07:58 PM (9WuX0)

173 WitchDoktor, turns out lots of people give a damn! at July 05, 2020 07:51 PM (4k/Uz)

===
Good instruction. In the moment hard to take I would imagine.

Posted by: Jukin the Deplorable and Totally Unserious at July 05, 2020 07:58 PM (pw+jk)

174 There was no de-escalating that situation with words. That woman (the aggressor) and her daughter were obviously not candidates for reasonable discourse. Driving away was the only option.

-

Yep. Everything I needed to know about concealed carry I learned from Bobby Bare:

The Winner

hooktube.com/watch?v=JRWlnv0_svU

Posted by: Charles Darwin Doing the Humpty Dance on the Interstate at July 05, 2020 07:58 PM (kc5DY)

175 Went to the range today and shot my P320 and my MCX Rattler.

Had great groupings with the MCX at 75 Yards.

Last winter I got 2nd place in the indoor pistol league. However it's clear that I need more practice since I was having a hard time getting my shots on a standard target at 25 yards with the P320.

Some of it has to do with my eyes... shooting a black target with dark black sights makes it difficult for me to line up the sight picture. Thinking about changing up my targets from the stick-ons to something else.

Posted by: Defenestratus at July 05, 2020 07:58 PM (9V81o)

176 Saw a guy get shot outside a bar in Seattle

Posted by: Yo! at July 05, 2020 07:58 PM (s2Zir)

177 I use a iPhone X and a iPad Pro 2020, no issues at all for me viewing the site.

Posted by: WitchDoktor, turns out lots of people give a damn! at July 05, 2020 07:58 PM (4k/Uz)

178 Had a revolver first, simple and easy to operate.

Posted by: Skip at July 05, 2020 07:58 PM (6f16T)

179 Well - I've made my opinion clear. No use beating it. And I encourage all of you to do you - and good luck.

Weasel - Hell of a topic - and very timely. Also - a tip of the hat to everyone involved. It can be an emotional subject - but I enjoyed reading the very well thought out, soberly presented comments.

Posted by: Political Mad Libs at July 05, 2020 07:59 PM (BN/jk)

180 156 Well, I lived in IL for many years, always had an FOID, I think of it as a relatively routine matter that the State Police handle routinely.
Assuming you dotted i's and crossed t's on your paperwork, and have no criminal record or warrants, should be no problem.
That said, these days no one has any idea of what might trip a red flag of some kind, so I cannot fault your thinking on staggering the applications by a few days.

Your FOID needs to be in your wallet at all times, as being in possession of a gun or ammo without one is presumptively a violation of the law, or so I always understood it.

Welcome to the world of being an Armed Citizen !
Posted by: the_sock_rat_eez, we are being gaslighted 24/365 at July 05, 2020 07:53 PM (0IMgo)

About a month ago I did my great road trip from Pittsburgh to my TX abode. In order to do so I decided to completely detour around IL just because I was carrying ammunition. No gun - I couldn't carry a gun - just ammunition. And I almost succeeded. I drove from IN (midway between Fort Wayne and Indianapolis) to damn near OK. I almost succeeded - I spent about a mile, maybe less, in the extreme south of IL.

Would anything have happened to me with that ammo? Perhaps not, but given that it is the People's Republic of IL, I was not about to take any chances.

Posted by: Catch Thirty-Thr33 at July 05, 2020 07:59 PM (ejsiI)

181 Ben Had, please define violent. All my knuckles are broken, as is my nose. But enough about Rugby.........

Posted by: NZFrank with a M2 at July 05, 2020 07:59 PM (bgJ0E)

182 Mom chasing my dad around the house with a loaded .38 kinda forced my hand.

That really, really sucks. No child should ever have to deal with something like that. So sorry.

Posted by: Notorious BFD at July 05, 2020 07:59 PM (EgshT)

183 Part of the strategy of the PTB behind this great leap forward is to create martyrs, most of whom will be quite surprized. This shit will keep up until someone eats lead, then the grabbers will swoop in. It is a very perilous time to exercise 2A, the slightest misstep will be mischaracterized.

You're absolutely correct. No good solutions, just less bad. Nobody, I mean nobody, is buying the lefty shit sandwich anymore. Gun grabbers had a chance in the 1950s, maybe.

Less and less so, as the decades went by. After the last few months or so? Forget it.

Posted by: Common Tater at July 05, 2020 08:00 PM (mJRr3)

184 Posted by: Secret Square at July 05, 2020 07:58 PM (9WuX0)
-----
I'm a big Sig Sauer fan. Try a bunch of guns at the range if you're able, and give some thought to the revolver option!

Posted by: Weasel at July 05, 2020 08:00 PM (MVjcR)

185
I carry always. I shoot what I carry, very well.

Not once have I ever entertained the thought off drawing to date. I would draw and fire in a direct assault situation or to protect a family member, anything else probably not.

Posted by: irongrampa at July 05, 2020 08:00 PM (KATBx)

186 He's suggested something along the lines of a Colt 45, Beretta or Sig Sauer simply because that's what Navy and Marines use, or did back in the day, but all suggestions are welcome.

Posted by: Secret Square at July 05, 2020 07:58 PM (9WuX0)

-

Go to a range that rents and spend some money trying out different makes and models and styles. The one you like and shoot well is the one for you.

Right now if I were spending money on one pistol for carry and home and truck and everywhere and could never ever ever shoot or buy another, I'd be strongly considering the Sig P365XL.

Posted by: Charles Darwin Doing the Humpty Dance on the Interstate at July 05, 2020 08:00 PM (kc5DY)

187 Posted by: Secret Square at July 05, 2020 07:58 PM (9WuX0)

Also don't forget insurance. If you ever do need to pull the trigger to defend yourself, you'll need a lawyer on speed dial.

Posted by: I am the Shadout Mapes, the Housekeeper at July 05, 2020 08:01 PM (PiwSw)

188 I love my wheel gun.

Also, pregnant women and there hormones should not be taunted. Not making excuses for anyone in that uncivilized confrontation.

Posted by: Infidel at July 05, 2020 07:54 PM (u/msz)

---
Revolvers are the best choice right now for new shooters.

They are still available, for one thing. The stores around here are pretty barren for selection, but there are nice revolvers with reasonable prices still available.

They are easy to use and even easier to clean. Perfect for the novice.

If you later decide to add an auto-loader, the revolver becomes a back-up, say the designated home defense gun.

Or the foundation of the greater collection to follow.

Just keep them away from canoes.

Posted by: Former Gun Owner A.H. Lloyd at July 05, 2020 08:01 PM (cfSRQ)

189 Few comments on the laws regarding self defense and law in general. Somewhat long post. First, Jen did a good summary of the potential pitfalls involving use of force and the need for training. My two cents is a bit different.

First--if you read the black letter of the law, you are only getting about half of the story.

There is a reason that lawyers have either very expensive professional libraries or equally expensive access to computer legal databases such as Lexis and Westlaw. There are also crib books known as treatises that are very expensive and go beyond the mere printed statute. There are precedents and then understanding exactly what those precedents mean in the context of the statutory language and these can flavor how the courts interpret the statute's language.

What is even more problematic is that there is a whole legal culture that has been percolating for centuries in the common law system and there are a bunch of assumptions how the world should work legally speaking. E.g. the duty to retreat, the reasonable person, the mantle of righteousness, etc. Self defense has been around for a VERY long time legally speaking and that will affect how the current law is interpreted.

Then there is the whole local legal culture of your community (or someone else's if visiting) as the legal community is made up of people in that particular bailiwick.

So, you want legal training in the general concepts of self defense which btw is an affirmative or justification defense in most jurisdictions where the defendant must provide evidence in their own behalf that what they did was justified based on what the "reasonable" person would do in that particular jurisdiction and according to that particular legal culture in that community.

Andrew Brance is one such individual, Mas Ayoob is another, Marty Hayes in WA, Tom Givens, etc. Two of those are lawyers, the other two have long focused on the intersection of law and self defense as former law enforcement and training officers.

The average criminal defense lawyer is a person that uses the some other dude did it (SODDI) or if two people are present, the other dude did it (TODDI) (h/t Mas Ayoob). Or they have excellent connections at the local da's office for a plea bargain. These are not the lawyers that you want in a self defense case.

You want a specialist in self defense which are few and far between as far as lawyers and need I say expensive as a result. You may also have to hire your own expert witnesses for your defense that cover training (if you had any), forensics, etc. It is extremely unwise to rely on the prosecutor in order to use the state's eyewitnesses and state labs in an affirmative or justification defense. Similarly, one must at the scene of any shooting identify witnesses, physical evidence, and usually provide a brief justification for what you did. Because otherwise, witnesses will be reluctant to come forward after the fact, physical evidence can be damaged or disappear, and last but not least, you are going to have to admit to shooting the individual on purpose to use a justification defense. Saying that the firearm just went off--boom--manslaughter at the minimum.

This is where the average person does not have the protective blanket that the police have after a shooting. Generally speaking, the assumption is a police shooting is generally justified and thus they get time to decompress, often legal representation from the get go, and often can delay making a statement until the fear, panic, and other emotions that distort eyewitness testimony die down.

The average person will be alone and in a situation where the police came because of trouble. Your situation is different than the police and certainly than the military--so you do not want the legal advice from a police officer or other leo--what you want is training from someone who has been the expert witness for the defense or defended someone successfully for self defense.

You want the person that a cop would choose to represent them if they were going on trial for an illegal shooting so instead of crappy advice--ask them who they would hire if they were in that kind of trouble.

Posted by: whig at July 05, 2020 08:01 PM (pv2s8)

190 That really, really sucks. No child should ever have to deal with something like that. So sorry.
Posted by: Notorious BFD at July 05, 2020 07:59 PM (EgshT)

---

They fought a lot when he was still in the Navy.

Once he retired, not as much.

Posted by: SMH at July 05, 2020 08:01 PM (RU4sa)

191 If you're just getting started, find a range with rentals and instruction. Try out a bunch of guns and see what works for you. First trip to the range can be kind of intimidating but I think you'll really like it once you do it. Or, if you're like me, just start buying guns and figure it out as you go. Gun safety is mostly common sense, do a little reading, never point at anything you don't want to shoot. Everyone has different tastes in guns and what they want to do with them. Have FUN !!

Posted by: ck at July 05, 2020 08:01 PM (Gf0Po)

192 I carry always. I shoot what I carry, very well.

Not once have I ever entertained the thought off drawing to date. I would draw and fire in a direct assault situation or to protect a family member, anything else probably not.
Posted by: irongrampa at July 05, 2020 08:00 PM (KATBx)
----------

Same here.

I have an "AO" mindset too.

Posted by: blake - semi lurker in marginal standing
at July 05, 2020 08:01 PM (WEBkv)

193 Some of it has to do with my eyes... shooting a black target with dark black sights makes it difficult for me to line up the sight picture. Thinking about changing up my targets from the stick-ons to something else.
The big problem is the lighting in a indoor range, sights that will give you a tiny centered group outdoors are the devil in an indoor setting.

Posted by: Panhandler at July 05, 2020 08:01 PM (S/rwf)

194 protesters allegedly descended on the Georgia Bureau of Public Safety headquarters in Atlanta early Sunday, vandalizing the building and sparking a fire that injured two employees of the law enforcement agency, authorities said." data-reactid="17">ABC - Armed with rocks, spray paint and fireworks, protesters
allegedly descended on the Georgia Bureau of Public Safety headquarters
in Atlanta early Sunday, vandalizing the building and sparking a fire
that injured two employees of the law enforcement agency, authorities
said.protesters allegedly descended on the Georgia Bureau of Public Safety headquarters in Atlanta early Sunday, vandalizing the building and sparking a fire that injured two employees of the law enforcement agency, authorities said." data-reactid="17">
protesters allegedly descended on the Georgia Bureau of Public Safety headquarters in Atlanta early Sunday, vandalizing the building and sparking a fire that injured two employees of the law enforcement agency, authorities said." data-reactid="17">
About
60 to 100 demonstrators, dressed in dark clothes and many wearing
masks, caused "extensive damage" to the facility, including breaking
several windows and spray painting graffiti on the building, according
to Lt. Stephanie Stallings, spokesperson for the state Department of
Public Safety.

"Fireworks were thrown through one of the windows, causing a small fire in one of the offices," Stallings said in a statement.

"Protesters" and "allegedly". Someone should teach the geniuses at ABC about the English language

Posted by: TheQuietMan at July 05, 2020 08:01 PM (FB+VM)

195 Family vacation in Colorado week after next. Any Gun Thread morons want to go to the free range at Bayfield? (Near Durango.)

I have Dad-level gun skills, which probably puts me at least three notches below many of the the Gun Thread regulars.

Would greatly appreciate a better teacher for wife and my two youngest kids.

Posted by: Pillage Idiot at July 05, 2020 08:02 PM (tkyK5)

196 Posted by: Political Mad Libs at July 05, 2020 07:59 PM (BN/jk)
----
Thanks!

Posted by: Weasel at July 05, 2020 08:02 PM (MVjcR)

197 It's good to know techniques for de-escalation too

Posted by: vmom 2020 at July 05, 2020 08:03 PM (OCRKH)

198 It is extremely important to game out scenarios so you aren't making shit up on the fly.
Mrs. R and I discussed the St. Louis McCloskies; it prompted her to get to the range with the AR she never shoots. We talked about best presentation to a crowd, as compared to their lack of experience/coordination. We decided that holding ARs at low ready while separating slightly for better coverage made sense. A show of possible force and appearance of the ability to deliver.
Then she went and shot the shit out of 100 and 200 yd targets. 80 rounds of my best .556.
BTW, she's never shot a rifle bigger than .22.
I'm in love all over again.

Posted by: RI Red at July 05, 2020 08:03 PM (HQ9xd)

199 Saw a guy get shot outside a bar in Seattle

Posted by: Yo! at July 05, 2020 07:58 PM (s2Zir)

---
I shot a man in Reno just to watch him die.

Posted by: Zombie Johnny Cash at July 05, 2020 08:03 PM (cfSRQ)

200 I'd be strongly considering the Sig P365XL.
Posted by: Charles Darwin Doing the Humpty Dance on the Interstate at July 05, 2020 08:00 PM (kc5DY)

The XL is great but it is basically a compact - not a subcompact like the P365 is.

I tried the P365 SAS at the Kittery store when Sig had their trailer range out back and it was quite cool. Takes some time to get used to but its a great gun.

Posted by: Defenestratus at July 05, 2020 08:03 PM (9V81o)

201 NZFrank, being trapped in a isolated hallway with an attacker that had 14 friends in tow, all sporting razor blades.

Posted by: Ben Had at July 05, 2020 08:03 PM (nudZs)

202 Baron Munchausen: We're in Sangamon Co (SPI area).

Posted by: Secret Square at July 05, 2020 08:04 PM (9WuX0)

203 By the way, I'd compliment you on another marvelous gun thread, weasel, but, I figure with all of the superlatives tossed your way, you're probably bored with all of the adulation.

Posted by: blake - semi lurker in marginal standing
at July 05, 2020 08:04 PM (WEBkv)

204

Speaking of Illinois FOID applications there were 40,000 first time applications during the first 2 weeks of June.

Posted by: TheQuietMan at July 05, 2020 08:04 PM (FB+VM)

205 The XL is great but it is basically a compact - not a subcompact like the P365 is.

-

Yeah, but looking at the specs it's just a tad bigger than my 9mm shield that I carry every day, and that 12 round capacity (15 with a different magazine) is a HUGE difference.

Posted by: Charles Darwin Doing the Humpty Dance on the Interstate at July 05, 2020 08:05 PM (kc5DY)

206
Mac at The Military Channel did a review of New Zealand's new military rifle, the LMT MARS-L.

https://tinyurl.com/y9zc9xzu

What are they going to do with all those Steyr AUGs?
Posted by: Hairyback Guy at July 05, 2020 07:52 PM (Z+IKu)

Give them to Fiji? Don't know but I can guarantee that this Govt will not sell them to the population like they did they SLR (L1A1) when we got the Steyrs in 1988.
The MARS L is a good weapon as it goes, but it will not last as long as the previous weapon fleet. We are already having issues with the hammers and some small parts. Mr Lewis was maybe not ready to get a large order from us at one time.

Posted by: NZFrank with a M2 at July 05, 2020 08:05 PM (bgJ0E)

207 115 Any advice is appreciated. I am totally new to this, never picked up a gun in my life save for one time shooting clay pigeons on a camping trip decades ago. Hubby was a Desert Storm Navy vet who learned to handle their standard issue handgun but other than that we are starting basically from scratch.
Posted by: Secret Square at July 05, 2020 07:43 PM (9WuX0)

Remember this: getting a gun is like trying on a pair of shoes. If you don't like or feel comfortable shooting the gun, you won't get the most out of it when it is needed.

It may be problematic getting to a range in IL with a large variety of handguns but if you can (or in a neighboring state), do so. Try out several, and find one you like. Then, make that what you want to use/carry.

Posted by: Catch Thirty-Thr33 at July 05, 2020 08:05 PM (ejsiI)

208 Ben Had, please define violent. All my knuckles are broken, as is my nose. But enough about Rugby

Heh. I played a bit back in the day, when dinosaurs roamed the planet. Have some malfunctioning pieces-parts as a result. No regrets whatsoever. Those were mighty good times.

Posted by: Notorious BFD at July 05, 2020 08:06 PM (EgshT)

209 An additional note:
due to the stricture I mentioned above, no Illinois gun store can even let you handle a prospective purchase without seeing that FOI card.

Posted by: the_sock_rat_eez, we are being gaslighted 24/365 at July 05, 2020 08:07 PM (0IMgo)

210 Posted by: blake - semi lurker in marginal standing
at July 05, 2020 08:04 PM (WEBkv)
-----
Thanks, blake. I appreciate all the kind words, but I'm really not doing anything special. You all deserve the credit for making this a fun and interesting place to hang out. Ben Had and several others know me and will tell you this is just my normal BS!

Posted by: Weasel at July 05, 2020 08:07 PM (MVjcR)

211 My first gun, a few weeks ago, is a P320. This type has two sets of beads on the sites, one day and one night.

Just now I got the dohickey that makes it easier to load a magazine.

I don't think this is a beginner gun, but I was in the army for four years and carried an M-9 and M-4.

Posted by: BourbonChicken at July 05, 2020 08:07 PM (LxTcq)

212 When only words have been exchanged, you don't really know that deescalation won't work until you've tried and failed.

Posted by: bear with asymmetrical balls at July 05, 2020 08:07 PM (H5knJ)

213 Please be aware that there is positive and negative compensation when talking about barrel harmonics and interior ballistics. For long range target shooting an action/ barrel that has positive compensation is preferable to to a negative compensation combo. For example strangely enough, a Lee Enfield tends to have positive compensation (the bullet leaves the muzzle on the up or positive flick of the barrel harmonics) while a Mauser type tends to have a negative (flick down) compensation. So for shorts (300 to 800 meters) use the stiff heavy action barrel combo and for the longs (900 to 1200 meters), use the lighter action combo (Lee Enfield) .It sounds counter intuitive but experience has shown it seems to work. YMMV.
Posted by: NZFrank with a M2 at July 05, 2020 07:49 PM (bgJ0E)

Incredible. I had no idea. Amazing. Thanks. Going to try and research this some more. Just fascinating.

Posted by: Thesokorus at July 05, 2020 08:07 PM (Nxreq)

214 Vmom, I kind of agree that pride got the better of everyone in that video.

Saying "oh, I'm sorry if I bumped into you" might have helped, or at least shown that gun lady was trying to make nice.

Arguing, getting into the car then rolling down the window to argue some more, hubby getting into the act, and finally getting out of the car with gun drawn only escalated.

Get into the car, keep windows up, and if the other people block you then call 911 and say you are in fear of being injured and you do NOT want to have to act in self defense. Phrasing.

Hopefully the other actors get tired of yelling at a car and leave on their own. If not, you are still on the line with 911 and they are listening. Keep the operator informed and don't engage the aggressors.

Posted by: WitchDoktor, turns out lots of people give a damn! at July 05, 2020 08:08 PM (4k/Uz)

215 Give them to Fiji? Don't know but I can guarantee that this Govt will not sell them to the population like they did they SLR (L1A1) when we got the Steyrs in 1988.
The MARS L is a good weapon as it goes, but it will not last as long as the previous weapon fleet. We are already having issues with the hammers and some small parts. Mr Lewis was maybe not ready to get a large order from us at one time.
Posted by: NZFrank with a M2 at July 05, 2020 08:05 PM (bgJ0E)

Well, with any luck the Prime Tyrant Ardern will be sent packing at the next election (later this year, no? I lost track). Those quality issues you cite do not bode well. Hopefully they will be hammered out soon.

Posted by: Catch Thirty-Thr33 at July 05, 2020 08:08 PM (ejsiI)

216 NZFrank, being trapped in a isolated hallway with an attacker that had 14 friends in tow, all sporting razor blades.
Posted by: Ben Had at July 05, 2020 08:03 PM (nudZs)
----
Dayum! I knew you were badass, but that's Bigly Badass!

Posted by: Weasel at July 05, 2020 08:08 PM (MVjcR)

217 You want the person that a cop would choose to represent them if they
were going on trial for an illegal shooting so instead of crappy
advice--ask them who they would hire if they were in that kind of
trouble.

That sounds reasonable but having an attorney like that when you need one ain't easy. They don't exactly grow on trees.

Posted by: Notorious BFD at July 05, 2020 08:09 PM (EgshT)

218 Remember this: getting a gun is like trying on a
pair of shoes. If you don't like or feel comfortable shooting the gun,
you won't get the most out of it when it is needed.

It may be problematic getting to a range in IL with a large variety
of handguns but if you can (or in a neighboring state), do so. Try out
several, and find one you like. Then, make that what you want to
use/carry.

Posted by: Catch Thirty-Thr33 at July 05, 2020 08:05 PM (ejsiI)

---
Very true.

In the current situation, one may have to accept the less than ideal solution, but with revolvers you can completely transform the grips. Because they have to make room for the magazine, auto-loaders simply can't match that flexibility.

One of my first pistols was less than ideal, but affordability was paramount. I then changed the grips and it was wonderful. There's a whole sub-culture on after-market revolver grips to ensure you get the most exact and comfortable fit.

That's something to consider.

Posted by: Former Gun Owner A.H. Lloyd at July 05, 2020 08:10 PM (cfSRQ)

219 197, vmom,
Interesting one should say that--Rory Miller who worked in corrections has an excellent book out on his experiences working with some of our more violent criminals in close quarters and explains how the world works from their perspective.

And he then explains how correctional officers work to tamp down the conflict in Facing Violence: Preparing for the Unexpected.

The old a soft answer turneth away wrath or using the socratic questioning technique can confuse and confound those intent on stirring up trouble. There are others and different techniques work for different people. Some will not work at all as the threat may be working their way into maneuvering the victim into a trap.

Most good self defense training should a) teach situational awareness and avoidance of potential conflicts before they start and b) reducing conflict escalation when it does, and c) doing the best to avoid the conflict while tactically positioning oneself if things go south.

Remember, the best fight is the one that you were never in.

Posted by: whig at July 05, 2020 08:11 PM (pv2s8)

220 The non-gun filth and her progeny set that couple up for a shot at easy money. And assuming the filth hires an attorney and sues the CCW holder in civil court, her attempt will likely be successful.

Posted by: PacosMojo at July 05, 2020 08:11 PM (ivZ+f)

221 blake, I know Weasel and he is a Prince among men.

Posted by: Ben Had at July 05, 2020 08:11 PM (nudZs)

222 Posted by: Secret Square at July 05, 2020 08:04 PM (9WuX0)

Ugh. You're a ways south of me. I don't have any contacts in that area.

The advice you've gotten far has been solid, but I will add one caveat: most gun stores and ranges won't let you rent or even handle firearms without a FOID card. Do a search for some stores around you. Call them and see if they have any classes coming up. First time owner's classes are best, and often they'll waive their FOID requirement to help get butts in the seats.

Posted by: Baron Munchausen at July 05, 2020 08:11 PM (C1NyB)

223 The black lady no longer continued to threaten to kick her ass did she?
Posted by: Can't resist temptation

In the state of Washington, the person ( bad guy) must be considered an immediate threat. In order to demonstrate immediate threat you must be able to clearly articulate 3 things:
1. Intent: You nust be ableto clearly explainhow you knew they were going to hurt you, someone else or destroy property.
2. Means: You must be able to demonstrate that the perception of an ability to carry out the perceived threat was present, i.e he said he was going to kick my ass, he had a knife etc.
3. Opportunity:You must be able to demonstrate that they could have achieved their goal of harm had you not subsued them.

These criteria apply to any use of force. Deadly force has additional burdens to prove. IMO , this us where MO woman and her husband screwed up. Not necessarily good ambassadors for those of us who carry but that being said, the environment created by our mostly spinless leaders is as much to blame. As difficult as it seems, not engaging with oxygen deprived brains is the best defense. I think we will see escalations of this type of incident more frequently.

Posted by: Sock Monkey...Made in the USA at July 05, 2020 08:11 PM (PKmHf)

224 Give them to Fiji? Don't know but I can guarantee that this Govt will not sell them to the population like they did they SLR (L1A1) when we got the Steyrs in 1988.
The MARS L is a good weapon as it goes, but it will not last as long as the previous weapon fleet. We are already having issues with the hammers and some small parts. Mr Lewis was maybe not ready to get a large order from us at one time.
Posted by: NZFrank with a M2 at July 05, 2020 08:05 PM (bgJ0E)

Let's hope Fiji! Hahaha.

Was hoping the surplus gurus could get their hands on them but who knows.

Thanks for the info and be safe in your travels!

Posted by: Hairyback Guy at July 05, 2020 08:12 PM (Z+IKu)

225 I don't know what to think about that group of black men marching and taunting in Georgia.

What bugs me is, suppose they get what they want, someone shoots back, do they really think it all ends with, "we killed all the whites and then we won the war?"

That's the part that scares me, they think that there will be no counter-attack; that that won't blow up into a huge bloody massacre where 13% is the very short end of the stick.

How much fear do they intend to stoke and what happens when fear turns to "nothing left to lose?"

Posted by: RoyalOil at July 05, 2020 08:12 PM (ecx96)

226 217 BFD, try the Armed Citizens Defense League website--free newsletter, the guy that runs it is Marty Hayes (runs a training center in WA state) and he was both a police officer and is a lawyer. They have affiliates--the second is that the police community knows who to hire and you can also glean that information from criminal defense lawyers BEFORE anything happens. News stories on self defense are also a good source.

Posted by: whig at July 05, 2020 08:13 PM (pv2s8)

227 blake, I know Weasel and he is a Prince among men.
Posted by: Ben Had at July 05, 2020 08:11 PM (nudZs)
---------------

He slipped you a $20 through the USB port, didn't he?

Posted by: blake - semi lurker in marginal standing
at July 05, 2020 08:13 PM (WEBkv)

228 Interesting thought about a gun as a pair of shoes. My wife is a champion clay shooter and is a mother to her shotguns and only fancies one handgun. My Dad came home from Vietnam in 65 and put a single shot 22 in my hands that week to shoot cans on the river bank, and as time passed a 30.06, an 8mm Mauser and so on - I like some of mine more than others but it's like one hammer over another for me. Does it work, can I manage it, what are its limitations in my hands, etc.?

Posted by: Heart of Darkness at July 05, 2020 08:13 PM (xceTB)

229 Can we have a discussion, at some point, on homemade range backstops? Construction, placement, etc.

Posted by: Martini Farmer - Civilly Disobedient at July 05, 2020 08:13 PM (3H9h1)

230 Let's hope Fiji! Hahaha.

Was hoping the surplus gurus could get their hands on them but who knows.

Thanks for the info and be safe in your travels!

Posted by: Hairyback Guy at July 05, 2020 08:12 PM (Z+IKu)

---
I'm still holding out for the Korean M-1 Carbines. Made in the USA, "lended" to RoK and ready to be returned.

Obama stopped it, but it would be nice to welcome them back home.

Posted by: Former Gun Owner A.H. Lloyd at July 05, 2020 08:14 PM (cfSRQ)

231 I don't know what to think about that group of black men marching and taunting in Georgia.

-

I haven't watched it but someone said they backed down immediately when some hick pulled up and said "let's go!"

Posted by: Charles Darwin Doing the Humpty Dance on the Interstate at July 05, 2020 08:15 PM (kc5DY)

232 How much fear do they intend to stoke and what happens when fear turns to "nothing left to lose?"
Posted by: RoyalOil at July 05, 2020 08:12 PM (ecx96)
------------

These people don't realize that between them and politicians, people are quickly figuring out there is no recourse to anything resembling justice.

In other words, people are feeling like they are being crowded into a corner.

Bad things tend to happen, once people start figuring out they've got no way to escape.

Posted by: blake - semi lurker in marginal standing
at July 05, 2020 08:15 PM (WEBkv)

233 218
Remember this: getting a gun is like trying on a

pair of shoes. If you don't like or feel comfortable shooting the gun,

you won't get the most out of it when it is needed
So true. I was lucky that my nephew had lots of pew pews for me to try
Sig Sauer P220 Legion in .45Beretta 92FS in 90mmGlock 19 Gen 4 in 9mmRuger 1911 in .45Ruger Match pistol in .22
That was the semi autos, he also had a couple of revolvers.
I was able to shoot all of these and found myself gravitating towards the Sig.

Posted by: Scuba_Dude at July 05, 2020 08:15 PM (uyKdz)

234 Are y'all saying there's going to be a MoMe in Fiji?

Posted by: I am the Shadout Mapes, the Housekeeper at July 05, 2020 08:15 PM (PiwSw)

235 201 NZFrank, being trapped in a isolated hallway with an attacker that had 14 friends in tow, all sporting razor blades.
Posted by: Ben Had at July 05, 2020 08:03 PM (nudZs)

Bloody hellfire. As you are in Tx I will not ask if that was a Glasgow gang.
Out side of the military, I had so much pucker factor all the time until I hit 29 (literally 29) and then I just moved away and it all stopped. Shot, stabbed, bottled, beaten, still upright tho.

Posted by: NZFrank with a M2 at July 05, 2020 08:15 PM (bgJ0E)

236 More OT-ness. Can someone recommend a photo sharing site that is still free? I've used photobucket in the past but now apparently I can't create links to my images without paying for a membership.

Posted by: Bob the Bilderberg at July 05, 2020 08:17 PM (qc+VF)

237 Posted by: whig at July 05, 2020 08:13 PM

Thanks much for the info. Ideally, I'd sure like to find specialized legal representation like that here in my area, if it were ever needed. Hopefully that will never happen.

Posted by: Notorious BFD at July 05, 2020 08:17 PM (EgshT)

238 115 ... "Any advice is appreciated. I am totally new to this, never picked up a gun in my life save for one time shooting clay pigeons on a camping trip decades ago. Hubby was a Desert Storm Navy vet who learned to handle their standard issue handgun but other than that we are starting basically from scratch."

Secret Square,
It depends on what you want to use the gun for. If for home defense, I suggest a double action revolver, 3 or 4 inch barrel, in 357 magnum but loaded with 38 specials.

For plinking and recreating and generally learning about firearms, a 22lr, semi-auto like a Ruger Mk IV, or even a single action revolver like the Ruger Wrangler or Heritage Rough Rider. (Both are under 200 bucks.) The reason for the 22 is so practice is affordable and recoil is comfortable.

Of course, there's nothing to say you can't get both.

Posted by: JTB at July 05, 2020 08:17 PM (7EjX1)

239 I have been in a "violent" encounter AFTER being shot. Out quail hunting with family on family land, heard a gun shot from a patch of trees and then saw quail flying over my head. Instantly spun away (on reflex) and the next shot peppered my hat and the collar on my jacket.

Turns out two guys were poaching and never saw us working up the draw on one side of the hill, while they worked up the other side. I yelled at them and they yelled back at me, then the rest of my group started walking up behind me. I told my great-uncle they hit me on the second shot and he started running to see who they were.

Apparently, having a 70 y.o. man running towards you with a shotgun may lead to some enlightenment, because they suddenly turned an ran the other way.

The odd were 6-2 in our favor. Had it just been me and my brother (two scrawny teens), then I don't know how it would have turned out.

Posted by: Pillage Idiot at July 05, 2020 08:18 PM (tkyK5)

240 How come the non law abiding citizens can shoot up Chicago and generally not face procicution

But someone who trys to follow the law gets the book thrown at them?

Posted by: Yo! at July 05, 2020 08:19 PM (s2Zir)

241 Posted by: RoyalOil at July 05, 2020 08:12 PM (ecx96)Y

I said before it ain't a race war to me. It's an anarchist communists against American Patriots war. I have a lot of friends who are black that I would protect with my life.

Posted by: Can't resist temptation at July 05, 2020 08:19 PM (2DOZq)

242 How much fear do they intend to stoke and what happens when fear turns to "nothing left to lose?"

Posted by: RoyalOil at July 05, 2020 08:12 PM (ecx96)

---
There's a certain amount of false courage brought on by the knowledge that local politicians will cover for them.

See also, Seattle.

The problem is that there is a limit to that envelope, and it doesn't even rely on armed resistance, just people getting fed up with useless leaders.

The gambit was always that Trump would go crazy, declare martial law or do something stupid. Instead he sat back and let things play out.

And now the leaders are starting to realize that these folks are out of control and just as likely to burn their mansion as anyone else's.

Posted by: Former Gun Owner A.H. Lloyd at July 05, 2020 08:19 PM (cfSRQ)

243 Are y'all saying there's going to be a MoMe in Fiji?
Posted by: I am the Shadout Mapes, the Housekeeper at July 05, 2020 08:15 PM (PiwSw)

Ummmmmmmmm.....Yes.

A man can dream.

Posted by: Hairyback Guy at July 05, 2020 08:19 PM (Z+IKu)

244 217 BFD, oh and Mas Ayoob, Tom Givens, and Andrew Branca travel the country giving their training seminars. Andrew also has a website dealing with self defense issues and paid internet training. USCCA also has resources but know less about them.

Mas Ayoob has a great primer on the legal aspects of self defense Deadly Force: Understanding Your Right to Self Defense, Andrew's 4th? ed. is the Law of Self Defense, Mitch Vilos has a useful book that also includes pattern jury instructions by state, and Marty Hayes' ALCDN has its free newletter along with if you join--dvd training on that very subject. Chris Bird also has some useful books--The Concealed Handgun Manual and his book on self defense shooting stories.

Posted by: whig at July 05, 2020 08:19 PM (pv2s8)

245 In the state of Washington, the person ( bad guy) must be considered an
immediate threat. In order to demonstrate immediate threat you must be
able to clearly articulate 3 things:

1. Intent: You nust be ableto clearly explainhow you knew they were going to hurt you, someone else or destroy property.

2. Means: You must be able to demonstrate that the perception of an
ability to carry out the perceived threat was present, i.e he said he
was going to kick my ass, he had a knife etc.

3. Opportunity:You must be able to demonstrate that they could have achieved their goal of harm had you not subsued them.

These criteria apply to any use of force. Deadly force has
additional burdens to prove. IMO , this us where MO woman and her
husband screwed up. Not necessarily good ambassadors for those of us who
carry but that being said, the environment created by our mostly
spinless leaders is as much to blame. As difficult as it seems, not
engaging with oxygen deprived brains is the best defense. I think we
will see escalations of this type of incident more frequently.

But "buy ammo". Or something.

Posted by: deplorable unperson - refuse to accept the Mask of the Beast at July 05, 2020 08:20 PM (3SIUH)

246 How come the non law abiding citizens can shoot up Chicago and generally not face procicution

But someone who trys to follow the law gets the book thrown at them?

Posted by: Yo! at July 05, 2020 08:19 PM (s2Zir)

-

Same reason cops sit on the far side of overpasses to ticket drivers going ten over.

It's a WHOLE lot easier than pulling over tailgaters or dangerous drivers who are actually causing the wrecks.

Posted by: Charles Darwin Doing the Humpty Dance on the Interstate at July 05, 2020 08:20 PM (kc5DY)

247 Hello Weasel, hello my fellow gun cranks.
A very interesting article, food for great thought.
The current times keep my blood pressure higher than I would prefer. Always good to see how other smart folks interpret events.
No range time this week. Dagnabbit!! As always I hope for next week.
Resurrecting some of my Dads reloading equipment. I have a Herters #3 press. I have started buying some die sets. Herters uses the usual 7/8 X14 dies, which is conveeenient. I have some Herters shell holders, will compare them to RCBS when those get in. I have a Lyman Junior press that is well set up and working, but when I put all my crap in storage as I closed the shop, evidently I put it not where I thought I did...I use the Lyman to reload pistol rounds, and have dies for 218 Bee as well, I never found dads dies for the 218 Ackley Improved Bee rounds that the 44 1/2 should have...
One thing at a time, right??

Posted by: Jesse in DC at July 05, 2020 08:20 PM (ouR/N)

248 NZFrank, this was in CA. Fear and adrenalin saved me that day. This same group had thrown a person in a wheelchair down a ramp earlier.

Posted by: Ben Had at July 05, 2020 08:21 PM (nudZs)

249 227 blake, I know Weasel and he is a Prince among men.
Posted by: Ben Had at July 05, 2020 08:11 PM (nudZs)
---------------

He slipped you a $20 through the USB port, didn't he?

Posted by: blake - semi lurker in marginal standing
at July 05, 2020 08:13 PM (WEBkv)
------
I could have got that for a twenty?!

Ben Had is too nice.

Posted by: Weasel at July 05, 2020 08:21 PM (MVjcR)

250 Good video on the sling, Weasel. The only rifle I have a sling on is my hunting rifle.
Range time today with the 6.5 Creedmoor. Still like the rifle a lot. Since things are getting crunchy all over, I spent a little time with my FN15 at the indoor range. Ear plugs and muffs time and I left when things started to get crowded. That's just an unfriendly weapon for the ears indoors.
Usually meet up with the nephew at the range but testing a couple of different Glocks since he gets a big discount on them through work. He is now the owner of a G19 Gen 4. The one he tested shot a pretty little hole in the paper at six yards.
Bought a 1000 rounds of .45 ACP but with AL cases. We'll see how it shoots. My M&P has pretty much eaten everything I've put through it so I'm hopefully. Glad I stocked early on ammo. Now buying new as I shoot so I can maintain my reserves.
As for pulling my weapon - if I pull it, I intend to use it. Unless I absolutely must to defend life, I'll make like Brave Sir Robin and run away.

Posted by: Long Running Fool at July 05, 2020 08:21 PM (w5Kav)

251 Posted by: JTB at July 05, 2020 08:17 PM (7EjX1)

Heh. Us plebes aren't allowed to own Heritage arms in this state. I guess inexpensive firearms are more dangerous, or something.

I tried to get a cheap .22lr from PSA shipped up here, and was told, Nope. Not for you.

Posted by: Baron Munchausen at July 05, 2020 08:22 PM (C1NyB)

252 Common Tater @ 183, gun grabbers had a chance 50 years ago? Hell 50 years ago they didn't control half the media. Today they control ALL of the media. They are counting on that and hoping for blood, no matter whose blood, on the street. Once the blood is on the street, it's war. I hate it, but there it is.

Posted by: Eromero at July 05, 2020 08:23 PM (XhWtx)

253 NZFrank, this was in CA. Fear and adrenalin saved me that day. This same group had thrown a person in a wheelchair down a ramp earlier.
Posted by: Ben Had at July 05, 2020 08:21 PM (nudZs)
----------------

Where in CA?

Central Valley resident, here.

Posted by: blake - semi lurker in marginal standing
at July 05, 2020 08:23 PM (WEBkv)

254 This article is pretty old. Don't know if this LegalShield service is still around, but it's an interesting read nonetheless.
http://8minutesoffame.com/legalshieldrep/

Posted by: AshevilleRobert at July 05, 2020 08:23 PM (Mm4NK)

255 NZFrank, this was in CA. Fear and adrenalin saved me that day. This same group had thrown a person in a wheelchair down a ramp earlier.

Geez. Thank God you hang out around a better class of people these days. By which I mean us, of course.

Posted by: Bob the Bilderberg at July 05, 2020 08:24 PM (qc+VF)

256 Again, thanks for the info, whig. I've had plenty of training over the years and am intimately familiar with my state's laws. It's legal representation in the event of an armed confrontation that I'm interested in. I had meant to bring this up this evening here on the gub, and lo and behold, here it be!

Posted by: Notorious BFD at July 05, 2020 08:24 PM (EgshT)

257 Thanks for the informative gun thread Weasel!
LabRadar says backordered till later july sometime..Argh!

Posted by: DBCooper at July 05, 2020 08:25 PM (y1Mvi)

258 Regarding slings: Both of my Garand's have slings that are set up so I can use them.

Still amazes me how much difference it makes when shooting off-hand.

Posted by: blake - semi lurker in marginal standing
at July 05, 2020 08:25 PM (WEBkv)

259 Weasel, excellent thread tonight. Unfortunately I see this topic coming up more and more in the coming months. And who knows what will happen come election day if President Trump is re-elected (God willing).
Buy ammo and lots of it. And practice, practice, practice. And after you have finished practicing, practice some more.

Posted by: Scuba_Dude at July 05, 2020 08:25 PM (uyKdz)

260 Re: gun grabbers

It's always a good time to link to the cake explanation:

"...You say, "Let's compromise. Give me half." I respond by asking what I get out of this compromise, and you reply that I get to keep half of my cake..."

https://tinyurl.com/ybrerft6

Posted by: Charles Darwin Doing the Humpty Dance on the Interstate at July 05, 2020 08:26 PM (kc5DY)

261 How come the non law abiding citizens can shoot up Chicago and generally not face procicution

But someone who trys to follow the law gets the book thrown at them?

Democrats vs Republicans

Posted by: dartist at July 05, 2020 08:27 PM (+ya+t)

262 252...

The Left didn't control the 1/2 media 50 years ago? So, CBS, NBC, ABC, PBS, WaPo, NYT, Reuter's and the AP we're staffed by conservatives in the late 1970's? Not in the world I lived in!

Posted by: PacosMojo at July 05, 2020 08:27 PM (ivZ+f)

263 blake, good old Vallejo. It hasn't gotten any better around there either.

Posted by: Ben Had at July 05, 2020 08:28 PM (nudZs)

264 Now more than ever it's incredible to appreciate just how safe racist redneck white supremacist gun nuts are.

Posted by: Charles Darwin Doing the Humpty Dance on the Interstate at July 05, 2020 08:28 PM (kc5DY)

265 Just curious:

Do any of you think that the Left does not study with Ayoob, Andrew Branca, Vila all those guys?

Do any of you notice that the Leftists are walking closer to the line than ever?

Our goal should be strict interpretation of the Constitution.
Not more lawyers who can protect your ass in a gunfight for ONLY 29.99 A MONTH!!!!

Posted by: deplorable unperson - refuse to accept the Mask of the Beast at July 05, 2020 08:28 PM (3SIUH)

266
Let's hope Fiji! Hahaha.

Was hoping the surplus gurus could get their hands on them but who knows.

Thanks for the info and be safe in your travels!
Posted by: Hairyback Guy at July 05, 2020 08:12 PM (Z+IKu)

Unless they were rifle held back as War Reserve, 99% of the Steyrs were very worn. Pretty much buggered. Still functional but they had done a lot of work. Doing armourers checks on barrel wear was always interesting to see how far the gauge would go down into the chamber. I feel we should have gone for the Gen III F90 Steyr from Aussie. Very well improved rifle, very sturdy and soldier proof , compared to a AR15 with a giggle switch. But what do I know?

Posted by: NZFrank with a M2 at July 05, 2020 08:28 PM (bgJ0E)

267 Posted by: PacosMojo at July 05, 2020 08:27 PM (ivZ+f)

True, but I think all those years ago they were not as blatant in their bias.Now a days they just make crap up.

Posted by: Scuba_Dude at July 05, 2020 08:29 PM (uyKdz)

268 Do any of you notice that the Leftists are walking closer to the line than ever?

-

If they aren't allowed to mob your vehicle and drag you out of your car and beat you to death they'll shoot you in self defense as you attempt to drive through them.

Posted by: Charles Darwin Doing the Humpty Dance on the Interstate at July 05, 2020 08:29 PM (kc5DY)

269 If the riots have taught us anything, it is that the NFA, the FOPA and the Hughes Amendment need to be abolished.

Posted by: Hairyback Guy at July 05, 2020 08:30 PM (Z+IKu)

270 Great thread, Weasel. Thank you.

Posted by: Ladyl--now mask-free! at July 05, 2020 08:31 PM (TdMsT)

271 blake, good old Vallejo. It hasn't gotten any better around there either.
Posted by: Ben Had at July 05, 2020 08:28 PM (nudZs)
-------------

Nope, and I've never understood it.

Most places cycle through rough and pleasant but the Bay area, not even close.

Posted by: blake - semi lurker in marginal standing
at July 05, 2020 08:31 PM (WEBkv)

272 In a normal time, I'm all for SERIOUS levels of restraint.

These are not normal times. Police are under fire, from their own Political Masters AND the Rioters, and are retreating.

They are telling the normal citizen that we are on our onw.

How many videos of stopped vehicles, and then people beating or ever shooting the passengers, do you need to see before you take that threat seriously.

Because that is EXACTLY what happened here. The two black women were trying to start a confrontation. THEY were the aggressors as the White Couple attempted to retreat, just as they were supposed to.

Then the one Black Lady purposely went behind their car, to stop them , even going so far as to hit the back window.

In a time when they are stopping cars, and pulling people out of them, things that would be an over reaction in a more normal time, just becomes ensuring your own safety.

Posted by: Romeo13 at July 05, 2020 08:31 PM (NgKpN)

273 I thought there was going to be a gun show here in Asheville but it was a false alarm. The billboard I saw was for Last Years show...

That's pretty bad when you can't sell billboard space for a year.

Posted by: AshevilleRobert at July 05, 2020 08:31 PM (Mm4NK)

274 Any class on CC and the laws of most states tell you you cannot escalate an encounter. Once you do, YOUR'RE aggressor and there goes your self Defense.

I feel sorry for this woman. She was probably hormonal (sorry ladies) from the baby but who knows.

As long as it was just shouting and standing in the way (no matter verbal threats as they probably didn't look like they could back it up) she could not whip out the pistol.
It was probably the threats and the blocking of the car. Embarrassment and harassment level went to 11 and she lost it. Who hasn't been in a situation where you've lost it and gone too far? Unfortunately she did it with a deadly weapon.
Too many are taking shooting lessons when they should also be taking Don't Shoot lessons. Even Don't Draw lessons.

I thoroushly recommend Andrew Branca's The Law Of Self Defense. It's pricy in my view for a paperback (24 bucks) but it contains verbatim listings of what the laws are for certain aspects of the law concerning a self defense defense. (heh)

People forget. It is against the law to draw your gun and shoot someone! Doesn't matter why you did it it's a crime.

What the law of self defense does is provide those who are qualified with a legal defense to the charge.

And there are a lot of steps to making that claim stick in a court of law.

Posted by: jakee308 at July 05, 2020 08:32 PM (cW5Gl)

275 If they aren't allowed to mob your vehicle and drag you out of your car
and beat you to death they'll shoot you in self defense as you attempt
to drive through them.

In my misspent youth I was taught that a car was a " 2000 lb bullet".

The game is rigged. And we gave them the legal insight to rig it.

Posted by: deplorable unperson - refuse to accept the Mask of the Beast at July 05, 2020 08:32 PM (3SIUH)

276 On iPad now. My replies are getting kicked out as spam!

Posted by: Weasel at July 05, 2020 08:32 PM (MVjcR)

277 I had the misfortune of watching the entire video of the encounter ending above. The assailants (a teenage girl and her mom) were extremely aggressive and threatening, and just prior to the pregnant woman drawing her weapon had blocked them in so they couldn't leave the parking lot. The aggressor mom had verbally threatened the couple multiple times, and when they attempted to leave had pounded on their rear windshield. At that point, in the gun owner's place, I would have feared for my safety.
Posted by: Deranged DM at July 05, 2020 07:08 PM (NMbg+)

How much verbal assault (threats to commit violence upon you), stalking, and preventing one from leaving the area does one have to take before one can draw down on someone?

The mother and daughter were going into the place when the other couple were leaving. The mother and daughter chose then to block their egress. (I am assuming it is customary to allow the egress before piling into the space). Then launch into the verbal assault. And forget about going into the business to follow the couple to their car and block them from leaving. Mother and daughter were extremely belligerent, about as bad as one can get without getting physical contact or sucker punching. Walking away / driving away did not work.

Posted by: Burnt Toast at July 05, 2020 08:32 PM (1g7ch)

278 Eromero, what I mean by that, a general civilian firearm confiscation without serious complaint could have last been achieved in the 1950s. In later decades by then it was too late.

Nobody is giving up their firearms at this point, no matter what "the law" says. I mean, no sane person would.

Didn't say I liked it. And this is the problem. Once the leftists reach a certain percentage of government it's all over.

Posted by: Common Tater at July 05, 2020 08:32 PM (mJRr3)

279 Same reason cops sit on the far side of overpasses to ticket drivers going ten over.

It's a WHOLE lot easier than pulling over tailgaters or dangerous drivers who are actually causing the wrecks.
Posted by: Charles Darwin Doing the Humpty Dance on the Interstate at July 05, 2020 08:20 PM (kc5DY)

(whine) I just want to go home safely tonight! You don't know how hard my job is! (whine)

Posted by: Hero In Blue at July 05, 2020 08:33 PM (ejsiI)

280 248 NZFrank, this was in CA. Fear and adrenalin saved me that day. This same group had thrown a person in a wheelchair down a ramp earlier.
Posted by: Ben Had at July 05, 2020 08:21 PM (nudZs)

That's why I am still alive. Good old, time-slowing, strength pumping adrenaline. I love that stuff so much and the buzz it gives is a major personality fault as a young man.

Glad you got thru that crap so I can have comms with you.

Posted by: NZFrank with a M2 at July 05, 2020 08:33 PM (bgJ0E)

281 But "buy ammo". Or something.
Posted by: deplorable unperson - refuse to accept the Mask of the Beast

Buy " more" ammo and magazines.

Posted by: Sock Monkey...Made in the USA at July 05, 2020 08:34 PM (PKmHf)

282 Any class on CC and the laws of most states tell you you cannot escalate
an encounter. Once you do, YOUR'RE aggressor and there goes your self
Defense.

shall not be infringed

Wonder how George Washington felt about the word "infringed"?

Posted by: deplorable unperson - refuse to accept the Mask of the Beast at July 05, 2020 08:34 PM (3SIUH)

283 Posted by: PacosMojo at July 05, 2020 08:11 PM

Would the jury for the civil trial occur where the incident happened? If so, no money awarded.

Posted by: clutch at July 05, 2020 08:34 PM (9UmRs)

284 270 Great thread, Weasel. Thank you.
Posted by: Ladyl--now mask-free! at July 05, 2020 08:31 PM (TdMsT)
----
Thanks Ladyl!

Posted by: Weasel at July 05, 2020 08:34 PM (MVjcR)

285 If they aren't allowed to mob your vehicle and drag you out of your car and beat you to death they'll shoot you in self defense as you attempt to drive through them.
Posted by: Charles Darwin Doing the Humpty Dance on the Interstate at July 05, 2020 08:29 PM (kc5DY)

Actually they already shooting people who stop for the 'peaceful protesters'.

Posted by: Burnt Toast at July 05, 2020 08:35 PM (1g7ch)

286 Our goal should be strict interpretation of the Constitution.
Not more lawyers who can protect your ass in a gunfight for ONLY 29.99 A MONTH!!!!

Posted by: deplorable unperson - refuse to accept the Mask of the Beast at July 05, 2020 08:28 PM (3SIUH)

Only $10 if you go through Texas Law Shield. Just sayin.

Posted by: Catch Thirty-Thr33 at July 05, 2020 08:35 PM (ejsiI)

287 The mother and daughter chose then to block their egress.

That is a tactic.

Block the exit until reinforcements show up. Flip the car , beat dey ass. On the street it is known.

Probably didn't make it to law classes in the Ivy League.

Posted by: deplorable unperson - refuse to accept the Mask of the Beast at July 05, 2020 08:36 PM (3SIUH)

288 I'm sorry, but a quality bar has been established here, and a video that doesn't offer cogent commentary by WeaselDog at the end doesn't make it over said bar.

Posted by: Duncanthrax at July 05, 2020 08:36 PM (DMUuz)

289 87 Outside of those that have ben in combat, has anyone here ever been in a truly violent situation?
Posted by: Ben Had at July 05, 2020 07:35 PM (nudZs)

Well, there was this time about 30 years ago when my wife and I unintentionally started a mini-riot, or at least a major brawl, at the Red River Revel in downtown Shreveport. Well a big group of people were on lawn blankets in a grassy area waiting for some band to start up, and it was just about dusk. Some group behind us had some bratty kids and had brought firecrackers and bottle rockets, and they were setting them off in the middle of the crowd and generally being a big annoyance to everyone.

Well, we put up with it and had a beer, until one of the fireworks flew up and landed right on my wifes stomach while she was laying down. So I was able to snatch it up and throw it right back at them before it went off - it was just an instant reaction, without thought. Instantly they jumped up "you threw that at my kid!" and of course i was "Hell with you - you shot that at my wife!" and so he started heading toward me, wanting to fight, and I wasn't backing down, although I was thinking he looks pretty mean with all his tattoos and that....

and then suddenly behind me I had a half dozen reinforcements, from the people around me who were also pissed off at how they'd been carrying on. But Mr. Tattoo didn't back down, he started to call up a bunch of his friends, and then my new friends called in their friends, and just like that there were about 40 - 50 people on each side going at it with fists.

And I'd like to say I covered myself in glory, but as with most people who start these kind of things, as it really got going my wife said "i want out of here!" so we ducked our heads and exited, stage left.

I read next day that several arrests were made at the festival, and nobody knew how the fracas had started.

Posted by: Tom Servo at July 05, 2020 08:37 PM (V2Yro)

290 Ok folks, have a great night!
Weasel, thanks again.

Posted by: Scuba_Dude at July 05, 2020 08:37 PM (uyKdz)

291 *clinks glass with NZFrank*

Posted by: Ben Had at July 05, 2020 08:37 PM (nudZs)

292 On iPad now. My replies are getting kicked out as spam!

You're not trying to discuss trendy but hideously ugly footwear, are you?

Posted by: Bob the Bilderberg at July 05, 2020 08:37 PM (qc+VF)

293 229 Can we have a discussion, at some point, on homemade range backstops? Construction, placement, etc.

Posted by: Martini Farmer - Civilly Disobedient at July 05, 2020 08:13 PM (3H9h1)

This please.

Posted by: clutch at July 05, 2020 08:38 PM (9UmRs)

294 and then suddenly behind me I had a half dozen reinforcements, from the people around me who were also pissed off at how they'd been carrying on. But Mr. Tattoo didn't back down, he started to call up a bunch of his friends, and then my new friends called in their friends, and just like that there were about 40 - 50 people on each side going at it with fists.

And I'd like to say I covered myself in glory, but as with most people who start these kind of things, as it really got going my wife said "i want out of here!" so we ducked our heads and exited, stage left.

I read next day that several arrests were made at the festival, and nobody knew how the fracas had started.
Posted by: Tom Servo at July 05, 2020 08:37 PM (V2Yro)
-----------

That's hilarious!

Posted by: blake - semi lurker in marginal standing
at July 05, 2020 08:39 PM (WEBkv)

295 I think one way to "de escalate" (not really*) these ppl wanting a viral video would be to have someone in your party** have a phone out and start recording as well.

*basic game theory
**unfortunately it's best to never go solo into possible enemy territory anymore

Posted by: vmom 2020 at July 05, 2020 08:39 PM (OCRKH)

296 Tom - LOL!!

So you're the guy! great story.

Posted by: Common Tater at July 05, 2020 08:40 PM (mJRr3)

297 291 *clinks glass with NZFrank*

Posted by: Ben Had at July 05, 2020 08:37 PM (nudZs)

Well its lunchtime, I suppose I can have a beer with lunch.
*clinks glass* Sl�inte.

Posted by: NZFrank with a M2 at July 05, 2020 08:41 PM (bgJ0E)

298 288 I'm sorry, but a quality bar has been established here, and a video that doesn't offer cogent commentary by WeaselDog at the end doesn't make it over said bar.
Posted by: Duncanthrax at July 05, 2020 08:36 PM (DMUuz)
----
Contract negotiations.

Posted by: Weasel at July 05, 2020 08:41 PM (MVjcR)

299 Posted by: Scuba_Dude at July 05, 2020 08:37 PM (uyKdz)
-----
My pleasure, S D!

Posted by: Weasel at July 05, 2020 08:42 PM (MVjcR)

300 I wonder if the days of calling the police are over? Having to worry "will they come, will they take their time and I'll be dead" plays into a lot of situations.

Posted by: Megthered at July 05, 2020 08:42 PM (yoe9p)

301 Thanks again Mr Weasel for the thead. Good stuff. I must errrr go to lunch ( and drink).

Posted by: NZFrank with a M2 at July 05, 2020 08:43 PM (bgJ0E)

302 Contract negotiations.
Posted by: Weasel

lemme guess, the weaseldogs have a union now

Posted by: vmom 2020 at July 05, 2020 08:43 PM (OCRKH)

303 I wonder if the days of calling the police are over?
Yes

Posted by: deplorable unperson - refuse to accept the Mask of the Beast at July 05, 2020 08:44 PM (3SIUH)

304 300
I wonder if the days of calling the police are over? Having to worry
"will they come, will they take their time and I'll be dead" plays into a
lot of situations.

I would think the use of force would be different if when you call the cops they say you're on your own, call city hall.

Posted by: dartist at July 05, 2020 08:45 PM (+ya+t)

305 Posted by: NZFrank with a M2 at July 05, 2020 08:43 PM (bgJ0E)
--------
Night, amigo!

Posted by: Weasel at July 05, 2020 08:45 PM (MVjcR)

306 I'm sorry, but a quality bar has been established here, and a video that doesn't offer cogent commentary by WeaselDog at the end doesn't make it over said bar.
Posted by: Duncanthrax at July 05, 2020 08:36 PM (DMUuz)
----
Contract negotiations.
Posted by: Weasel

Bacon

Posted by: Sock Monkey...Made in the USA at July 05, 2020 08:45 PM (PKmHf)

307
lemme guess, the weaseldogs have a union now
Posted by: vmom 2020 at July 05, 2020 08:43 PM (OCRKH)
---
Fancy lawyer!

Posted by: Weasel at July 05, 2020 08:46 PM (MVjcR)

308 Only $10 if you go through Texas Law Shield. Just sayin.

I thought the "Texas Law Shield" was a mask?

Posted by: deplorable unperson - refuse to accept the Mask of the Beast at July 05, 2020 08:46 PM (3SIUH)

309 I wonder if the days of calling the police are over?
Yes
Posted by: deplorable unperson - refuse to accept the Mask of the Beast at July 05, 2020 08:44 PM (3SIUH)

Yup....and Jury Nullification.

Not Guilty unless it involves pederasts or democrats.

But I repeat myself.

Posted by: Hairyback Guy at July 05, 2020 08:46 PM (Z+IKu)

310 Posted by: Hairyback Guy at July 05, 2020 08:30 PM (Z+IKu)

FUPA or FOPA?

Posted by: clutch at July 05, 2020 08:46 PM (9UmRs)

311 "All of you, I hope, are familiar with the work of Attorney Andrew Branca"

Do remember one thing: Branca is talking from a position of 'pragmatism', not necessarily what is *right*. Nor even what is necessarily **legal**.
He's not wrong. But just keep in mind that his PoV is almost entirely oriented on keeping out of jail, at almost any cost.

Posted by: GWB at July 05, 2020 08:47 PM (mRtYs)

312 I think what should be said (and I was reminded by this) that even in a rural peaceful setting, shit can happen.

You cannot make assumptions anymore when it comes to your personal protection.

There are now too many ignorant souls who've seen stuff on tv and who're thinking they'd like to get in on that. Just for a laugh.

And you wind up the one behind the 8 ball.

Watch your 6 and be prepared.

Posted by: jakee308 at July 05, 2020 08:47 PM (cW5Gl)

313 FUPA or FOPA?
Posted by: clutch at July 05, 2020 08:46 PM (9UmRs)

Ummmmmmm.....Both.

Posted by: Hairyback Guy at July 05, 2020 08:48 PM (Z+IKu)

314 Shooting Buddy & I have ordinary dirt bermed up about 5 feet high, 6 or 7 feet wide at the base and at least 3 feet wide at the top.
Scraped up with a loader blade on an old Ford tractor.

The new 180 degree circular berm projected for later this year will be similar, but we will probably end up buying a few dumptruck loads of dirt to set it up. Also mooting the idea of getting free broken concrete from the local dump as additional filler.

Posted by: the_sock_rat_eez, we are being gaslighted 24/365 at July 05, 2020 08:49 PM (0IMgo)

315 That is a tactic.

Block the exit until reinforcements show up. Flip the car , beat dey ass. On the street it is known.

-

I know it's hard for folks who didn't grow up with that type of experience and knowledge to grasp, but that was my first thought, too.

Trivially easy, too. If you're at a mall in an urban area in two or three minutes there's a good size crowd because they're yelling at everyone that passes "She called my daughter a ******!!!" and in no time there's going to be a sizeable angry crowd around the vehicle and at least three to ten that will be willing to take the violence to the next level.

All because somebody was rumored to have used an ugly word.

She's going to get in trouble for showing her weapon, but it's entirely possible that her name would've been in the local news for her injuries (or death) if she hadn't.

Posted by: Charles Darwin Doing the Humpty Dance on the Interstate at July 05, 2020 08:49 PM (kc5DY)

316 Well folks, it's been fun! Until next week!
Thanks again, Weasel!

Posted by: Former Gun Owner A.H. Lloyd at July 05, 2020 08:49 PM (cfSRQ)

317 I said before it ain't a race war to me. It's an anarchist communists against American Patriots war. I have a lot of friends who are black that I would protect with my life.
---
Yeah, there won't be clean battle lines like they wish.

And the part that really horrifies me is the way it seems someone is eager to see a whole lot of innocents killed.

The same one that is not satisfied with the abortion and murder of 2,500 babies every single day ....

Posted by: RoyalOil at July 05, 2020 08:50 PM (ecx96)

318 237 Posted by: whig at July 05, 2020 08:13 PM

Thanks much for the info. Ideally, I'd sure like to find specialized legal representation like that here in my area, if it were ever needed. Hopefully that will never happen.

Posted by: Notorious BFD at July 05, 2020 08:17 PM (EgshT)

Try, U.S. Law Shield

Posted by: Braenyard at July 05, 2020 08:50 PM (MFsip)

319 Posted by: Former Gun Owner A.H. Lloyd at July 05, 2020 08:49 PM (cfSRQ)
-----
Night, AHL!

Posted by: Weasel at July 05, 2020 08:50 PM (MVjcR)

320 256 BFD, thanks for your kind words. Maybe someone else might be able to get some information that they did not have from my post.

Not wanting any identifiers in an open forum but one thing is many state level firearm owner associations have attorneys affiliated with them. The Virginia (VCDL I believe) example, and some of the other state organizations like the PFOA, (Pennsylvania), might also be a good place to find legal representation before the fact.

Posted by: whig at July 05, 2020 08:51 PM (pv2s8)

321 Onto a less emotional topic than SD.

Decades ago I played with round ball loads in an '03 Springfield. This consists of a small amount of pistol powder like Bullseye or Unique, thumb pressing a .310 round ball into the case mouth (no filler) and putting a dab of lube like Lee Liquid Alox on the ball. This is a powder puff load, no recoil to speak of, that can be surprisingly accurate to 30 yards. It's cheap shooting and a lot of fun. It can turn a WW I battle rifle into a squirrel gun if desired.

This can be done with any 308 rifle. I have a friend who can no longer shoot her Marlin 30-30 for health reasons. It was her deer rifle as a teen and she misses using it on targets. But, using a rest, she could shoot this load all day long.

These wouldn't cycle a semi-auto of course.

The same approach can be used in the 45-70 with a .457 round ball.

Since this approach only needs neck sizing the case, even a Lee Classic Loader (whack-a-mole type) or a hand press is more than adequate.

Posted by: JTB at July 05, 2020 08:51 PM (7EjX1)

322 The mother and daughter chose then to block their egress.

That is a tactic.

Block the exit until reinforcements show up. Flip the car , beat dey ass. On the street it is known.

Probably didn't make it to law classes in the Ivy League.
Posted by: deplorable unperson - refuse to accept the Mask of the Beast at July 05, 2020 08:36 PM (

That would have changed the parameter of all 3 , intent, means and opportunity. Still MO woman would have been at the mercy of the charging PA. This is what sucks. Personally, if my pistol came out of my holster, it would have been fired.

Posted by: Sock Monkey...Made in the USA at July 05, 2020 08:51 PM (PKmHf)

323

vmom, had been out mowing earlier today.
Came back in and started reading in my standard way late to the thread, way.
Saw a question you asked. You got a few answers. They weren't too bad for the most part. Up until a sorta cob made a comment that pretty much shut it down.
That surprised me,,, not.

If you ever want to delve a bit further when I'm around, be glad to help. Would probably be best if we met at bottom of previous thread to do so though.

Posted by: TeeJ at July 05, 2020 08:52 PM (Jd44p)

324 Johnny Cash comments on the Flag, shooting, and That Ragged Old Flag.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RlkfEns1gO4

Posted by: Braenyard at July 05, 2020 08:53 PM (MFsip)

325
Watch your 6 and be prepared.
Posted by: jakee308 at July 05, 2020 08:47 PM (cW5Gl)

Always think tactical.

Posted by: Catch Thirty-Thr33 at July 05, 2020 08:54 PM (ejsiI)

326 And, I FINALLY got some range time today! My son took me out for our delayed Father's Day trip.

His .45 sure do shoot nice.

My 1911 (9mm) sure do shoot nice and smoooooth.
My recently built AR-15 is a peach.

I have either a sights problem or a bad-shooting problem, since I was shooting the left-hand side of targets pretty consistently with my 1911. I think I was also pulling the AR shots left some.

Any discussion on how-to-shoot the M4-style sights? The ones like here: https://bit.ly/3gsEQGh ? Those are the only sights on the gun.

Posted by: GWB at July 05, 2020 08:54 PM (mRtYs)

327 Charles Darwin @ 315- Stay the hell out of crowds.

Posted by: Eromero at July 05, 2020 08:55 PM (XhWtx)

328 Thx as always Weasel, for my favorite thread of the week !

Posted by: the_sock_rat_eez, we are being gaslighted 24/365 at July 05, 2020 08:56 PM (0IMgo)

329 Thanks for the info, y'all. And thanks for the thread, Weasel. A Sunday evening staple for me. Have a good one, everybody.

Posted by: Notorious BFD at July 05, 2020 08:58 PM (EgshT)

330 Charles Darwin @ 315- Stay the hell out of crowds.

-

Preaching to the choir my friend. I'm in the Charlotte area. That same concept can likely be seen every day on school buses, city buses, college campuses, workplaces, etc. See a crowd forming? Hit the road, jack.

I can't imagine how it must be in Birmingham, Chicago, Baltimore, etc.

Posted by: Charles Darwin Doing the Humpty Dance on the Interstate at July 05, 2020 08:58 PM (kc5DY)

331 was playing in a band at the Kit Kat Club in hollywood (early 1980s), saw the whole audience duck and get under tables. Had no idea why, until the LAPD told us to stop playing. Turns out, bouncer had beef with some dude, he came back shooting. Bouncer got hit but was fine. We got to finish our set after the ambulance left.

Posted by: angsterdamn at July 05, 2020 08:58 PM (gMabG)

332 Posted by: TeeJ at July 05, 2020 08:52 PM (Jd44p)
-----
Something I said, TeeJ?

Posted by: Weasel at July 05, 2020 09:00 PM (MVjcR)

333 Charles Darwin @ 315- Stay the hell out of crowds.

Right to free assembly - nullified.

Check.

Posted by: deplorable unperson - refuse to accept the Mask of the Beast at July 05, 2020 09:00 PM (3SIUH)

334 Hi Weasel,
No range this week. Just dry fire practice, don't wanna expend ammo.

Maybe go to the range next weekend.

Happy 4th.

Posted by: BifBewalski - sinis est culus at July 05, 2020 09:01 PM (VcFUs)

335 Thanks Weasel and to clarify, try a offering little bacon during contract negotiations.

Posted by: Sock Monkey...Made in the USA at July 05, 2020 09:01 PM (PKmHf)

336
328 Thx as always Weasel, for my favorite thread of the week !
Posted by: the_sock_rat_eez, we are being gaslighted 24/365 at July 05, 2020 08:56 PM (0IMgo)
-----
Happy to do it, sock rat!

Posted by: Weasel at July 05, 2020 09:01 PM (MVjcR)

337 Weasel, when you are going to pull the trigger do you do it on an inhale or exhale?

Posted by: Ben Had at July 05, 2020 09:01 PM (nudZs)

338 Weasel,
Thanks for bringing up an important topic that is liable to become very important in the coming months and thanks to jen and witchdoktor for their posts as well.

Posted by: whig at July 05, 2020 09:01 PM (pv2s8)

339 I recall Branca commenting on a thread here several years ago about people who would do "constitutional carry" of their rifles into places like Starbucks. He wasn't supportive of the idea. There were those who pushed back against that position bacause it was legal. His argued legal or not, it was stupid.

Fun times, fun arguments.

Posted by: Mikey NTH - The Outrage Outlet has Your Spirit Of '76 Masks!! at July 05, 2020 09:01 PM (0QYMt)

340

Good Lord no, Weasel!!!!
It was someone else.

A once a month guy and going to his head.

Posted by: TeeJ at July 05, 2020 09:02 PM (Jd44p)

341 Posted by: BifBewalski - sinis est culus at July 05, 2020 09:01 PM (VcFUs)
----
Hi Bif! Send us a range report and pics!

Posted by: Weasel at July 05, 2020 09:02 PM (MVjcR)

342
Good Lord no, Weasel!!!!
It was someone else.

A once a month guy and going to his head.
Posted by: TeeJ at July 05, 2020 09:02 PM (Jd44p)
----
OK! No worries. I can be pretty thick headed sometimes!

Posted by: Weasel at July 05, 2020 09:03 PM (MVjcR)

343 337 Weasel, when you are going to pull the trigger do you do it on an inhale or exhale?
Posted by: Ben Had

I've had consistent results at the top of an inhale, between heart beats.

Your mi.eage may vary, do what works for you.

Posted by: BifBewalski - sinis est culus at July 05, 2020 09:04 PM (VcFUs)

344

I only suggested going to previous thread so as not to muck up whatever other thread is going at the time.

Posted by: TeeJ at July 05, 2020 09:04 PM (Jd44p)

345 337 Weasel, when you are going to pull the trigger do you do it on an inhale or exhale?
Posted by: Ben Had at July 05, 2020 09:01 PM (nudZs)
--------
I do most of my shooting from a rest where it's not a huge factor... probably bottom.

Posted by: Weasel at July 05, 2020 09:05 PM (MVjcR)

346 Video guy reminds me of Sgt. Carter in Gomer Pyle.

Posted by: Emmie at July 05, 2020 09:05 PM (clsJu)

347 How come the non law abiding citizens can shoot up Chicago and generally not face procicution

But someone who trys to follow the law gets the book thrown at them?

Posted by: Yo! at July 05, 2020 08:19 PM (s2Zir)

There are militant leftists running the city and county who are out to get the man for locking up the "youths". Kim Foxx the Crook County State's Attn. (of Juicy Smollett fame) dropped all charges on over 800 youths who were involved in the rioting.

Posted by: TheQuietMan at July 05, 2020 09:05 PM (x10fB)

348 OK, basic range report. I shot holes in paper and they didn't shoot back or call the DA on me.
I've been transitioning from COAL to Base to Ogive measurements. I wanted to check the sweet spots and found that I had indeed nailed it with my best COAL. But I also found another sweet spot a little further off the lands. Both are at .500 plus an RCH.
I guess I'll need to check velocity for each. Damn. I have to go to the range again.

Posted by: RI Red at July 05, 2020 09:06 PM (HQ9xd)

349 Posted by: whig at July 05, 2020 09:01 PM (pv2s

----
My pleasure, whig. I'm glad we can express differing opinions here. I think everyone is smarter for it.

Posted by: Weasel at July 05, 2020 09:06 PM (MVjcR)

350
Posted by: Sock Monkey...Made in the USA at July 05, 2020 09:01 PM (PKmHf)
----
That'd work!

Posted by: Weasel at July 05, 2020 09:07 PM (MVjcR)

351 "349 Posted by: whig at July 05, 2020 09:01 PM (pv2s
----
My pleasure, whig. I'm glad we can express differing opinions here. I think everyone is smarter for it.

Posted by: Weasel at July 05, 2020 09:06 PM (MVjcR) "

In this way, this thread is very like every range I've ever shot at - the politest place on Earth !

Posted by: the_sock_rat_eez, we are being gaslighted 24/365 at July 05, 2020 09:08 PM (0IMgo)

352 Bif, is that like holding your breath for a heartbeat?

Posted by: Ben Had at July 05, 2020 09:08 PM (nudZs)

353

"I can be pretty thick headed sometimes!"

Possibly. I've never seen it though.

This one,,, well,,, nah, I'll let it go there.
Just never go back to his thread and ignore button works just fine.

Posted by: TeeJ at July 05, 2020 09:08 PM (Jd44p)

354 Not much to contribute.

I did find another 1000 rounds on my front porch Friday though.

Posted by: Aviator at July 05, 2020 09:08 PM (0FTCx)

355
I only suggested going to previous thread so as not to muck up whatever other thread is going at the time.
Posted by: TeeJ at July 05, 2020 09:04 PM (Jd44p)
-----
Gotcha. No worries. Just wanted to make sure I hadn't unintentionally stepped on vmoms toes.

Posted by: Weasel at July 05, 2020 09:09 PM (MVjcR)

356 The scene with the pregnant woman was a set up.
A variation of the knock out game which, stimulated by the *protests*, are becoming ever more popular.

There will be more gangbang assaults and more YouTube candid camera's. Coming soon to a neighborhood near you.

Posted by: Braenyard at July 05, 2020 09:10 PM (MFsip)

357 Posted by: Ben Had at July 05, 2020 09:08 PM (nudZs)
----
Now that I think about it, I probably do both. I'm mostly focused on wind and sight alignment because heartbeat isn't much of a factor in the (usually) prone shooting I do. Great question!

Posted by: Weasel at July 05, 2020 09:11 PM (MVjcR)

358 My point earlier was that the left is pouring gasoline on the hydrogen keg just begging the mobs and tools to force the spark of one armed citizen, on video, defending themselves, at which point the full power of the propagandists and corrupt politicians, DAs, and law enforcement and Soros groups will go for criminalization of gun ownership, then to full confiscation.

Posted by: Drink Like Vikings at July 05, 2020 09:11 PM (ClAdJ)

359 Breathing. Ancient wisdom for me: normal breaths, a larger one, exhale half way, hold, squeeze between heartbeats if possible or when the sights are dead nutz on.

Posted by: RI Red at July 05, 2020 09:11 PM (HQ9xd)

360 87 Outside of those that have ben in combat, has anyone here ever been in a truly violent situation?
Posted by: Ben Had at July 05, 2020 07:35 PM (nudZs)

Back alley of Hong Kong. One of my guys was way drunk, and we lost track of him. Paid off a local to tell me where he went.

Turns out it was a set up for me at that point. Just knives though.

Got some scars on my arms, and could not report the incident or I would have been in a Hong Kong Jail.

Posted by: Romeo13 at July 05, 2020 09:12 PM (NgKpN)

361 OK, basic range report. I shot holes in paper and they didn't shoot back or call the DA on me.

Dang do I need to start " worrying " about that now? I draw mean faces on my silhouette targets, is that enough to demonstrate they are bad guys?

Posted by: Sock Monkey...Made in the USA at July 05, 2020 09:12 PM (PKmHf)

362 356, yup.

Posted by: Drink Like Vikings at July 05, 2020 09:12 PM (ClAdJ)

363
I did find another 1000 rounds on my front porch Friday though.
Posted by: Aviator at July 05, 2020 09:08 PM (0FTCx)
------
Nicely done! Good to see you, by the way.

Posted by: Weasel at July 05, 2020 09:13 PM (MVjcR)

364 356, 358, yeah.

Posted by: the_sock_rat_eez, we are being gaslighted 24/365 at July 05, 2020 09:13 PM (0IMgo)

365 Thanks Weasel. Over and out.

Posted by: Cannibal Bob at July 05, 2020 09:13 PM (Jx5Qs)

366 Aviator - Reverse Ammo Thieves? Or did you pay for it to be delivered?

Would be great to have ammo just appearing on my porch now and then, for free.

Seems like half the crew on my RO duty day literally has guns given to them on a regular basis. Widows, friends, people downsizing, moving, getting out of the hobby - it's ridiculous. One guy sometimes carries his Model 66 no-dash, 4-inch barrel, looks never fired, on duty days - just to rub it in, I think. It was a free gift.

I'm the only gun nut I know, apart from the guys at the matches and club, so I have no "base" from which to receive such goodies.

Posted by: rhomboid at July 05, 2020 09:14 PM (El6T/)

367 Posted by: RI Red at July 05, 2020 09:06 PM (HQ9xd)
-----
Adds a whole new element, doesn't it? Still glad you called?

Posted by: Weasel at July 05, 2020 09:14 PM (MVjcR)

368 The scene with the pregnant woman was a set up.

A variation of the knock out game which, stimulated by the *protests*, are becoming ever more popular.

There will be more gangbang assaults and more YouTube candid camera's. Coming soon to a neighborhood near you.

Posted by: Braenyard

This guy gets it.

Posted by: deplorable unperson - refuse to accept the Mask of the Beast at July 05, 2020 09:14 PM (3SIUH)

369 352 Bif, is that like holding your breath for a heartbeat?
Posted by: Ben Had

Not at all. Imagine yourself breathing normally, at the top of you breathing rhythm inhale, (for me) your body is at its natural most still, full of oxygen, not stressed, or pulling anything.

Time your trigger finger pull with your heart beat.

With dry fire practice, I was able to put the two together. You can also achieve the same body stillness (at least i was able to) on the bottom of the exhale.

When my heart beat is elevated i trained to get the trigger snap down to between heart beats at the top of the inhale. It allowed me to achieve a round every other second in a timed fire drill on different ranges targets and and target exposures.

I'm no where near as good as I should be, but I'm okay for civilian defense I guess.

Posted by: BifBewalski - sinis est culus at July 05, 2020 09:14 PM (VcFUs)

370 >>Nicely done! Good to see you, by the way.
Posted by: Weasel

You as well! Thanks for the thread!

Posted by: Aviator at July 05, 2020 09:15 PM (0FTCx)

371 Braenyard @ 356, agree on this being a set-up, in fact for a lawsuit. See this sort of thing all the time, it's plain once you see the signs. IF you want to see the signs. It's a shame people don't most of the time. That's gotta change.

Posted by: Eromero at July 05, 2020 09:15 PM (XhWtx)

372 Super late to the thread.

When I carried though the protests and violent crowds in downtown Seattle last month, I found myself actively avoiding people I thought to be particularly likely to be violent. I walked on the other side of the street. Or I walked three blocks out of my way.

I had to get from work to the ferry. Through a violent, unpredictable crowd. Not fun. Terrifying. But, I got home safe and did not draw my weapon. I guess I am a pussy, but I dont want a war. I just want to go home.

Posted by: nurse ratched at July 05, 2020 09:15 PM (U2p+3)

373 My policy has always been to avoid 'fun' situations ever since I started carrying (around 1995 or so).

So move feet first. If I can't move feet, physically or if I'm protecting someone slower than me, or I'm just unable to leave the area, then protect.

Respond to words with words and respond to force with force. But ramp up fast. If someone is threatening me or my wife with words, a loud shout of 'what the fuck did you say?' has prevented violence.

So far, haven't had to go past words in a good 20+ years. But I do have a gun and I'm mentally aware that if certain 'lines' are crossed, I am ready to draw and fire if needs be. That's what I train for.

But frankly...avoiding drama has worked 99% of the time.

Posted by: Mark Andrew Edwards at July 05, 2020 09:16 PM (d1uFV)

374

Oh, I see.
But it would have been no harm, no foul to step on MY toes.
Fine.
Good.

Posted by: TeeJ at July 05, 2020 09:16 PM (Jd44p)

375 359 Breathing. Ancient wisdom for me: normal breaths, a larger one, exhale half way, hold, squeeze between heartbeats if possible or when the sights are dead nutz on.
Posted by: RI Red at July 05, 2020 09:11 PM (HQ9xd)

Range shooting? great idea.

Combat shooting? You can't worry about breath control when your adrenalin is through the roof.

A drill we used to do, was to run about 30 yards at a sprint, and then try to shoot as fast as you could.

Also used to play a lot of paintball with NON semi auto pistols (you had to cock the dang things each shot).

Really taught you the difference between range shooting, and shooting under stress.

Posted by: Romeo13 at July 05, 2020 09:16 PM (NgKpN)

376 While it was on sale and with free shipping, I recently got a Caldwell Deluxe rifle rest and the matching rear rest. I've used bean bags in the past or just braced my elbows. But I'm trying for more accuracy (for fun) these days. Haven't tried it out yet but it has to be an improvement.

Posted by: JTB at July 05, 2020 09:17 PM (7EjX1)

377 Oh, I see.
But it would have been no harm, no foul to step on MY toes.
Fine.
Good.

Posted by: TeeJ at July 05, 2020 09:16 PM (Jd44p)
------
Well. she IS an 'ette!

Posted by: Weasel at July 05, 2020 09:17 PM (MVjcR)

378 Guys I am on a phone so have to make this short. Update on the Orion township gun situation. The couple are currently living in Michigan not Missouri. Typical first report error. They were arraigned and released on $50000 bond EACH cannot leave Michigan and had to surrender all their weapons. The next day the husband who worked at Oakland University with their veteran program was fired.

Posted by: Jen the original at July 05, 2020 09:17 PM (pOQsk)

379 Weasel, the day I talked to you set me on a path. Perdition, percussion, whatever. And I got to hear Weasel Dog!

Posted by: RI Red at July 05, 2020 09:17 PM (HQ9xd)

380 Thanks Weasel. Over and out.
Posted by: Cannibal Bob at July 05, 2020 09:13 PM (Jx5Qs)
-----
'night, CB!

Posted by: Weasel at July 05, 2020 09:18 PM (MVjcR)

381 I believe unassing the situation, in general, is the best generic strategery to *any* bad situation. If you can, and doing so is cost-free ("humiliation" or frustration I don't consider actual costs), uh huh, get away. As much for the non-legal, as legal, reasons. Brawls and melees and such are just not high % operations for normal people not looking to be injured.

Posted by: rhomboid at July 05, 2020 09:18 PM (El6T/)

382 360 87 Outside of those that have ben in combat, has anyone here ever been in a truly violent situation?
Posted by: Ben Had

Does changing out a high power transmitter supply under white lights while being shot at by Ala's finest count?

I was more safe in the light than my squad that was cowering behind thin skinned vehicles were.

Posted by: BifBewalski - sinis est culus at July 05, 2020 09:18 PM (VcFUs)

383 Bif, I use the exhale for things related to the horses because you are releasing all body tension the muscles are more relaxed.

Posted by: Ben Had at July 05, 2020 09:19 PM (nudZs)

384 Hey y'all - I've been out on the deck smoking a cigar, and was getting a lot of my replies rejected. Sorry if I missed any comments - if so, please send me an email. Sorry!

Posted by: Weasel at July 05, 2020 09:19 PM (MVjcR)

385 I also hope I never need to use my car or homeowners insurance. But there is a reason I carry insurance and a gun. I just might need them one day.

Posted by: G at July 05, 2020 07:09 PM (dy/m/)

An important point, IMO: Insurance is for something that _happens TO you_; you carry weapon so that you can *prevent* something from happening TO you. They are NOT the same. (And more people who buy insurance need to understand it doesn't work that way.)

Posted by: GWB at July 05, 2020 09:19 PM (mRtYs)

386 Now, for the range report.

I made some freedom holes in socialist paper on Friday, since work gave me the day off and the gun range was closed on the 4th.

Took my AR pistol, I was experimenting with some STANG mags I'd duct-taped together with pencil between them. I wanted to make sure this bubba mod wouldn't obstruct controls on the weapons. Worked fine, by the way. Now it's my default load-out for that tool.

Drill of the day was 25 yards, start and low ready, then mount AR pistol, fire two rounds. Repeat. I'm not a great rifle shot, but every shot was a lethal hit at 25 yards. Red dot sights work.

After that, did some one-handed drills with my CZ P-07 Kadet mod.

I won't say it was my most accurate day ever, but it was good and fun. And I didn't wear a fucking mask. Fuck you, Gov. Insulin. I think I was one of two people at the fucking GUN RANGE who didn't wear the mask of the Beast.

Posted by: Mark Andrew Edwards at July 05, 2020 09:20 PM (d1uFV)

387 I had to get from work to the ferry. Through a violent, unpredictable crowd. Not fun. Terrifying. But, I got home safe and did not draw my weapon. I guess I am a pussy, but I dont want a war. I just want to go home.
Posted by: nurse ratched at July 05, 2020 09:15 PM (U2p+3)

You are nothing of the sort Nurse. Perfect practice of situational awareness. People should practice that mindset as much as they practice at the range or in the dojo/dojung.

Posted by: Sock Monkey...Made in the USA at July 05, 2020 09:20 PM (PKmHf)

388 The next day the husband who worked at Oakland University with their veteran program was fired.
Posted by: Jen the original at July 05, 2020 09:17 PM (pOQsk)

THAT truly sucks.

Posted by: Romeo13 at July 05, 2020 09:21 PM (NgKpN)

389 They were arraigned and released on $50000 bond EACH cannot leave
Michigan and had to surrender all their weapons. The next day the
husband who worked at Oakland University with their veteran program was
fired.

yay, "law".

Posted by: deplorable unperson - refuse to accept the Mask of the Beast at July 05, 2020 09:21 PM (3SIUH)

390 Oh, one final note: I did a dumb impulse buy and snapped up a FN FNC-45 because the price was low. I bought it as a car gun replacement for my M&P Compact. Then remembered, after the fact, that I have an XD45 that wasn't in any bug out bags or other systems.

So, didn't need it after all, but I bought it.

I....may have a problem.

Posted by: Mark Andrew Edwards at July 05, 2020 09:22 PM (d1uFV)

391 Weasel, the day I talked to you set me on a path. Perdition, percussion, whatever. And I got to hear Weasel Dog!
Posted by: RI Red at July 05, 2020 09:17 PM (HQ9xd)
-----
You need to hear Little Joe! Dude has a BARK!

Posted by: Weasel at July 05, 2020 09:22 PM (MVjcR)

392 Concur, Romeo 13. When my son wanted to know about combat shooting, I had him run up our steep driveway, knock out 10 pushups, roll, then shoot the gong.
I'd do that now, but being over 29, my heart rate goes up when I get my keys out of my pocket. Or watch CNN.

Posted by: RI Red at July 05, 2020 09:22 PM (HQ9xd)

393 A lot of people? Really?

Posted by: Can't resist temptation at July 05, 2020 07:11 PM (2DOZq)

More than I would like. Fewer than many think. I (for my personal comments) often have to remind people that "a lot" doesn't necessarily mean "most everyone" nor "a majority" nor even "a large plurality".

I don't know (I haven't read all the comments, either) what they consider "a lot".

Posted by: GWB at July 05, 2020 09:23 PM (mRtYs)

394 nurse, well done. The % move - avoid trouble whenever feasible, and not at an unacceptable cost of some sort.

Naval forces in WWII often avoided battle when it was not the % move, given all considerations. The Italian navy (Reggia Marina) in WWII, mostly due to fuel problems, usually had very restrictive ROE in the Med, which benefited the Royal Navy. The RN also had times they avoided battle, for various reasons.

If actual military forces in the midst of an all-out world war play it smart by avoiding contact in some cases, individuals in daily life surely need to always be looking for that option.

Posted by: rhomboid at July 05, 2020 09:23 PM (El6T/)

395 I....may have a problem.

(All, in unison) "Hi Mark!"

Posted by: Bob the Bilderberg at July 05, 2020 09:24 PM (qc+VF)

396 We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal,
that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights,
that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. That
to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving
their just powers from the consent of the governed, - That whenever any
Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of
the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government,
laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in
such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and
Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long
established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and
accordingly all experience hath shewn that mankind are more disposed to
suffer, while evils are sufferable than to right themselves by
abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train
of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a
design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it
is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards
for their future security.

Posted by: deplorable unperson - refuse to accept the Mask of the Beast at July 05, 2020 09:24 PM (3SIUH)

397 Posted by: nurse ratched at July 05, 2020 09:15 PM (U2p+3)
-----
Smart lady! Glad you have that situational awareness.

Posted by: Weasel at July 05, 2020 09:24 PM (MVjcR)

398
Weasel, another great thread with timely discussion and information. I have spent some time evaluating the various posts here, and am the better for it.

And that picture at the top of the post.

Is IS a Grand Old Flag, isn't it?

Posted by: LeftCoast Dawg at July 05, 2020 09:25 PM (sy5kK)

399 I....may have a problem.
Posted by: Mark Andrew Edwards at July 05, 2020 09:22 PM (d1uFV)
----
I see no problem!

Posted by: Weasel at July 05, 2020 09:26 PM (MVjcR)

400 392 Concur, Romeo 13. When my son wanted to know about combat shooting, I had him run up our steep driveway, knock out 10 pushups, roll, then shoot the gong.
I'd do that now, but being over 29, my heart rate goes up when I get my keys out of my pocket. Or watch CNN.
Posted by: RI Red at July 05, 2020 09:22 PM (HQ9xd)

Yup, not saying I'm on high alert, but.

My bedroom is on the front of the house, right next to the courtyard (brick fence) that leads to the front door.

Well, last night at 1 AM I awoke to the sound of the gate to the courtyard opening.

.45 was immediately in hand.

Turns out is was some friendly neighbors from across the street coming to tell me my garage door was open. Thanked them profusely, and never told them that I had a gun in my hand.

But, that is where my head is at now days.

Posted by: Romeo13 at July 05, 2020 09:26 PM (NgKpN)

401
A drill we used to do, was to run about 30 yards at a sprint, and then try to shoot as fast as you could.

My SIL and I added that drill awhile back. About a fifty yard sprint uphill. It is very humbling and disconcerting at the same time. It forces you to go through your mental checklist. First dozen times I tried that, bad words accompanied my self evaluation after emptying my mag.

Posted by: Sock Monkey...Made in the USA at July 05, 2020 09:26 PM (PKmHf)

402 383 Bif, I use the exhale for things related to the horses because you are releasing all body tension the muscles are more relaxed.

Posted by: Ben Had

Work with that. You've trained yourself already to be most calm there. Give it a try at the range and see what that does for you, just breathe and squeeze. Get a rhythm down. See how you do. It's not relevant for speed unless you are in a position you should've vacated minutes ago.

My point is to breathe. You cant hold your breath and fight. Train to be able to handle elevated pulmonary conditions. Be accurate in those conditions.

Watch some video of the Olympic teams trai ing for cross country skiing and rifle marksmanship. They don't hold their breath, they use it.

Posted by: BifBewalski - sinis est culus at July 05, 2020 09:26 PM (VcFUs)

403 Rhomboid @ 381, at 71, I am onboard with un-assing the area if possible, but ain't going to get in no fistfight nor wrestling match. My not willing to be beat on can be dangerous to others.

Posted by: Eromero at July 05, 2020 09:27 PM (XhWtx)

404 399 I....may have a problem.
Posted by: Mark Andrew Edwards at July 05, 2020 09:22 PM (d1uFV)
----
I see no problem!
Posted by: Weasel at July 05, 2020 09:26 PM (MVjcR)

heh

Posted by: Mark Andrew Edwards at July 05, 2020 09:27 PM (d1uFV)

405 Posted by: Notorious BFD at July 05, 2020 08:58 PM (EgshT)
---
My pleasure, N BFD!

Posted by: Weasel at July 05, 2020 09:28 PM (MVjcR)

406 395 I....may have a problem.

(All, in unison) "Hi Mark!"
Posted by: Bob the Bilderberg at July 05, 2020 09:24 PM (qc+VF)

Ah, so I'm not alone.

Posted by: Mark Andrew Edwards at July 05, 2020 09:28 PM (d1uFV)

407 Weasel, Romeo13 and RI Red have convinced me that we will have an extended starting line to the shoot and scoot targets.

Posted by: Ben Had at July 05, 2020 09:28 PM (nudZs)

408 Hola...Que pasa gun nutz!

To VIA and his wife, my apologies for not saying good bye when I left Summerville SC. I'm still kicking myself in the ass for not taking y'all up on the dinner invite. Lasagna is one of my favorites.

I'm now in Cary NC for a nine week job starting tomorrow morning. In keeping with the topic, I have my little friend with me, a G26 plus a couple of extra mags and ammo.

The first three weeks are kind of messed up. Start at 7 am to unload 2 tractor trailers full of shelving and millwork, then come back in at 9 pm for overnight. Work 4 overnights then switch to days for a day or so, then back to nights for another 4 then back to days, rinse, repeat.

Thank goodness I'm close to early retirement. Seriously thinking about taking it. Getting tough to live out of a suitcase. Been doing it for over 7 yrs now.

So any folks in the Raleigh area?

Posted by: Traveling Man Who's Stuck At Home&&&& at July 05, 2020 09:29 PM (d2QZ6)

409 An important point, IMO: Insurance is for something that _happens TO you_; you carry weapon so that you can *prevent* something from happening TO you. They are NOT the same. (And more people who buy insurance need to understand it doesn't work that way.)
Posted by: GWB at July 05, 2020 09:19 PM (mRtYs)

Uh, no, I carry martial arts insurance, to this day, because of what I may do to someone else.

Because if I pick up a stick and hit someone? And they are injured, and then someone looks at my past Fencing Record?

I'd be screwed blued and tatoo'd without some liability insurance.

Posted by: Romeo13 at July 05, 2020 09:29 PM (NgKpN)

410 Guys I am on a phone so have to make this short. Update on the Orion township gun situation. The couple are currently living in Michigan not Missouri. Typical first report error. They were arraigned and released on $50000 bond EACH cannot leave Michigan and had to surrender all their weapons. The next day the husband who worked at Oakland University with their veteran program was fired.
Posted by: Jen the original at July 05, 2020 09:17 PM (pOQsk)
-------
Thanks for the update, Jen. Isn't that special. And thanks again for the great comment!

Posted by: Weasel at July 05, 2020 09:30 PM (MVjcR)

411 I wonder if "absolute despotism" includes the tyranny of lawyers who know far better how to win win win in the enemy's territory than us low-class scumbags?

Certainly makes for an excellent business model.

Posted by: deplorable unperson - refuse to accept the Mask of the Beast at July 05, 2020 09:30 PM (3SIUH)

412 Think I reported a few weeks back, I took a very small stab at more precise loading - 30-06 for the M1 - just to see if there were any difference in results.

So I trickled a pretty precisely consisted charge for 50 rounds, then shot them alongside my "regular" reloads (same powder, same intended charge, but small variations based on powder throw).

Result: much as with 70 years of random controlled trials with masks to reduce transmission of influenza-like illnesses, there was no significant benefit observed.

Sort of interesting to experiment. The powder dispenser I use (Lee Auto-Drum) is actually very consistent. The powder was IMR 4064, a stick powder, so some hinkiness to be expected. But as noted I trickled to pretty much exactly consistent charges for 50 rounds. Don't recall exactly, think the variance when I don't do that is about .1 - .3 grains.

Posted by: rhomboid at July 05, 2020 09:31 PM (El6T/)

413
Is IS a Grand Old Flag, isn't it?

Posted by: LeftCoast Dawg at July 05, 2020 09:25 PM (sy5kK)
------
It sure is! Thanks, LCD!

Posted by: Weasel at July 05, 2020 09:31 PM (MVjcR)

414 Before the ONT shows up. Weasel, thanks for another great thread, both thought provoking and informative. I look forward to it every week.

Posted by: JTB at July 05, 2020 09:31 PM (7EjX1)

415 Nurse R, you hit it on the head. Stay out of trouble, keep your head on a swivel, hope you never have to use it, but be confident in your abilities.
On a lighter note, Jr. is off doing his maritime thing, but wants to settle over on the west side of the ferry route. May have to ask you about neighborhoods.

Posted by: RI Red at July 05, 2020 09:31 PM (HQ9xd)

416 Somebody pls knowledge me on JHP vs JSP as regards to use as a self defense round

Posted by: DB- just DB at July 05, 2020 09:32 PM (iTXRQ)

417 Bif, I spend all my time teaching my students how to breathe. Learning how to not hold you breath in a tight situation is critical.

Posted by: Ben Had at July 05, 2020 09:33 PM (nudZs)

418 Weasel, Romeo13 and RI Red have convinced me that we will have an extended starting line to the shoot and scoot targets.
Posted by: Ben Had at July 05, 2020 09:28 PM (nudZs)
------
Sounds good!

Posted by: Weasel at July 05, 2020 09:33 PM (MVjcR)

419 Weasel, thanks for another great thread, both thought provoking and informative. I look forward to it every week.
Posted by: JTB

Yes.

I don't say thank you enough. This is a fine thread, one of the few places we can chat about technique.

Stay safe. Happy 4th.

Posted by: BifBewalski - sinis est culus at July 05, 2020 09:33 PM (VcFUs)

420 Weasel - gracias as ever for gubs!!

Posted by: rhomboid at July 05, 2020 09:33 PM (El6T/)

421 366 Aviator - Reverse Ammo Thieves? Or did you pay for it to be delivered?

Would be great to have ammo just appearing on my porch now and then, for free.

Seems like half the crew on my RO duty day literally has guns given to them on a regular basis. Widows, friends, people downsizing, moving, getting out of the hobby - it's ridiculous. One guy sometimes carries his Model 66 no-dash, 4-inch barrel, looks never fired, on duty days - just to rub it in, I think. It was a free gift.

I'm the only gun nut I know, apart from the guys at the matches and club, so I have no "base" from which to receive such goodies.
Posted by: rhomboid at July 05, 2020 09:14 PM (El6T/)

I am getting to the point where I'm thinking about giving guns away to friends and family.

Don't have children and won't have now.

I SAY that...but then I keep buying new guns. But, yeah, I'm mentally thinking about who gets what guns. I have some nephews. Not sure I trust them with firearms yet. They've been mostly raised in MN by soft headed filthy Scandis.

Posted by: Mark Andrew Edwards at July 05, 2020 09:33 PM (d1uFV)

422 Does the linked article discuss an umbrella liability policy and *home defense*?? As opposed to issues arising from concealed-carry, that is.

Posted by: rhomboid at July 05, 2020 09:34 PM (El6T/)

423 does B.R.A.S.S. still apply?

Because I still use it.

Posted by: deplorable unperson - refuse to accept the Mask of the Beast at July 05, 2020 09:34 PM (3SIUH)

424 MAE, I'm available to be adopted.

Posted by: RI Red at July 05, 2020 09:36 PM (HQ9xd)

425 Posted by: JTB at July 05, 2020 09:31 PM (7EjX1)
----
Thank you very much, JTB.

And to all of you who are here each week, and to you lurkers, too, thank you all for making this fun. I really do appreciate you all coming back week after week and deciding to spend some of your free time here. Again, if I missed any comments. please feel free to drop me a line. I always go back and check for late comments in the AM.

Posted by: Weasel at July 05, 2020 09:37 PM (MVjcR)

426 Posted by: rhomboid at July 05, 2020 09:33 PM (El6T/)
---
my pleasure, pal!

Posted by: Weasel at July 05, 2020 09:37 PM (MVjcR)

427 I've seen some of the matches that Gun Jesus and Karl have video'd for In Range TV involve a physical task that at least breaks focus, and might raise heart rate a bit (dragging a big object 30 feet, turning a huge tire over a few times). Would love to be in the kinds of matches they show. Lots of movement, action, etc.

When I have my preferred private range to myself (Range 2, 50 yds), I've sometimes done 10 burpees and 20 pushups between clips for the M1 or Mosin just to practice stress and elevated heart rate shootin'.

Posted by: rhomboid at July 05, 2020 09:38 PM (El6T/)

428 Posted by: BifBewalski - sinis est culus at July 05, 2020 09:33 PM (VcFUs)
---
My pleasure, Bif. Thank you!

Posted by: Weasel at July 05, 2020 09:38 PM (MVjcR)

429 Mark - um, yeah, I'll get my address to you soon. Please list the firearms on your list for disposal.

Posted by: rhomboid at July 05, 2020 09:39 PM (El6T/)

430 We thank you Weasel!

Posted by: Traveling Man Who's On The Road Again &&&& at July 05, 2020 09:39 PM (d2QZ6)

431 416 Somebody pls knowledge me on JHP vs JSP as regards to use as a self defense round
Posted by: DB- just DB at July 05, 2020 09:32 PM (iTXRQ)

Jacket Hollow Points are reliant on design and velocity to make a bigger hole. Modern designs, like Hornady and Speer make, work pretty darn well. Some, cheaper JHPs can fail to expand. These expanding rounds penetrate less, that can be a problem for some rounds, since you want 12" to 18" penetration ideally.

JSP are soft point projectiles. They don't expand consistently but they also don't require the same high velocities. They also penetrate a bit deeper than a hollowpoint, which can be a plus or minus. They are mostly better than FMJ rounds, so long as they feed reliably in your gun. My M1 Carbine is, anecdotally, very lethal with JSP rounds. But the damn things don't feed reliably, even after I've polished the feed ramp.

Posted by: Mark Andrew Edwards at July 05, 2020 09:39 PM (d1uFV)

432 JHP vs JSP

-

IIRC the jacketed soft points have greater penetration than defensive hollow points, but they make that trade with less expansion. I know there are locales where hollow points are illegal, so they probably fill that role.

Posted by: Charles Darwin Doing the Humpty Dance on the Interstate at July 05, 2020 09:39 PM (kc5DY)

433 424 MAE, I'm available to be adopted.
Posted by: RI Red at July 05, 2020 09:36 PM (HQ9xd)

Are you really in Rhode Island? Cuz that's a heck of a walk for me.

Posted by: Mark Andrew Edwards at July 05, 2020 09:40 PM (d1uFV)

434 Posted by: rhomboid at July 05, 2020 09:34 PM (El6T/)
-----
It doesn't go into tremendous detail, but gives you some things to think about and ask your agent.

Posted by: Weasel at July 05, 2020 09:40 PM (MVjcR)

435 Late again, but I spent the 4th at Rancho Plan "B" with my bride. Just sorta got home and I gotta pack to return to VA. BBL

McGyver, over

Posted by: McGyver at July 05, 2020 09:41 PM (4vcil)

436 Posted by: Traveling Man Who's On The Road Again &&&& at July 05, 2020 09:39 PM (d2QZ6)
----
Happy to do it, Traveling Man!

Posted by: Weasel at July 05, 2020 09:41 PM (MVjcR)

437 So FMJ for the range and JHP for carry

Posted by: DB- just DB at July 05, 2020 09:43 PM (iTXRQ)

438 Well, I'm out. Them damn trucks won't unload themselves in the morning. Y'all have a good un.

Posted by: Traveling Man Who's On The Road Again &&&& at July 05, 2020 09:43 PM (d2QZ6)

439 401
A drill we used to do, was to run about 30 yards at a sprint, and then try to shoot as fast as you could.

My SIL and I added that drill awhile back. About a fifty yard sprint uphill. It is very humbling and disconcerting at the same time. It forces you to go through your mental checklist. First dozen times I tried that, bad words accompanied my self evaluation after emptying my mag.
Posted by: Sock Monkey...Made in the USA at July 05, 2020 09:26 PM (PKmHf)

One of the weirdest things the Paintball field taught me, was how inaccurate even a GOOD shot can be, in the field.

Had a situation in Hawaii, where one of my Paintball team guys was shooting off his mouth to the Kaneohe Marines (we were in Hawaii). Well, to make a long story short, their UNIT was playing the next day, and he challenged them.

We were State Champs, but by the time phone calls were made, there were only 10 of us who could make it the next day.

Against 30 well trained Marines.

Admittedly we had Home field advantage, but we smoked them two straight games. Did not bother with flags, just worked as a team to divide and conquer.

It was also the time I finally understood Moral, and its impact on battle.

After the first two games, we split the teams up, so half the Marines and half the Rough Riders (my team) were one each side.

Had a situation where me and 1 one other 'Rider' were following 5 marines, who got in a little firefight. We were just sitting back, watching for a bit, when a Marine from their side called out an advance.

Me and my team mate, looked at each other, and charged. REALLY dumb.

Heard a Marine on the other team say 'shit, Roughriders'. And they literally started to find dense cover, quit shooting, and some started to run.

I had never understood Napoleons statement, that Moral is to numbers, as 3 is to 1, until that moment.

Posted by: Romeo13 at July 05, 2020 09:43 PM (NgKpN)

440 ONT is up

Posted by: My life is insanity at July 05, 2020 09:44 PM (AnTUn)

441 There's so much truth to the fact that we rarely rise to an occasion, but instead devolve to our level of training. It happened to me in the Army aviation world; luckily my training was good.
Much of my range time is to build muscle memory so I don't have to think about basic firearm operation. I want my higher order operations telling me about fight or flight.

Posted by: RI Red at July 05, 2020 09:44 PM (HQ9xd)

442 ...
It forces you to go through your mental checklist.

Posted by: Sock Monkey...Made in the USA at July 05, 2020 09:26 PM (PKmHf)
---------------------------------------

1. Am I alive?
2. Am I having a heart attack?
3. Am I going to have a heart attack?
4. I can't breathe.

Posted by: Braenyard at July 05, 2020 09:44 PM (MFsip)

443 I see NZFrank was in the comments up above, joking about the southern end of the South Island. I was only there for 2 weeks, but the fairly-Scottish-sounding accent elements down there were pretty dramatic. Beautiful, mostly empty place.

Posted by: rhomboid at July 05, 2020 09:44 PM (El6T/)

444 Thank You all for the insight about having to move and shoot after doing something strenuous .

We are going to incorporate this concept into the target range for the MoMe.

Weasel,Jim.Eromero.Rancherbob and I appreciate all of it.

Posted by: Ben Had at July 05, 2020 09:45 PM (nudZs)

445 OK, ONT is up. Thanks again everybody. Have a great week!

Posted by: Weasel at July 05, 2020 09:45 PM (MVjcR)

446 RiRed

Contact me through Mark about your boy. I can put him in touch with my oldest, if you want, or talk with yall myself about seattle neighborhoods. It would be my pleasure.

I love my city. It is quirky and hard working and LOVES the outdoors. Dont let the fucktards tell you different. We have ourfaults, and they are giant festering pustuals..... but its still my home.

Posted by: nurse ratched at July 05, 2020 09:46 PM (U2p+3)

447 Thanks Weasel, I'll check it out, and probably talk to my agent about it.

Posted by: rhomboid at July 05, 2020 09:46 PM (El6T/)

448 On a lighter note, Jr. is off doing his maritime thing, but wants to settle over on the west side of the ferry route. May have to ask you about neighborhoods.
Posted by: RI Red at July 05, 2020 09:31 PM (HQ9xd)

Obviously I'm not nurse (she's our MoMe leader!) but happy to help out any fellow moron or Little moron with local geographic help.

I've been around here for quite a while. In my teens, (late 60's) would usually spend weekends duck and pheasant hunting in Eastern Washington. When we returned in Sunday afternoon back to Edgewood (north hill of Puyallup) the dads were done. But still with the light of late afternoon, a cousin, myself, and the dog would walk down the hundred feet or so of steep terrain off the hill and continue to hunt birds in the Sumner valley.
Today, that land is where freeway I-167 is located.

Actually was on that stretch of freeway yesterday, and had a flashback to some of those extra hunting excursions.

Anyway, glad to help if needed. Rest assured the west side of Puget Sound is not as sporty, by far. And rents/land prices are much lower.

E-mail in nic.

Posted by: LeftCoast Dawg at July 05, 2020 09:47 PM (sy5kK)

449 437 So FMJ for the range and JHP for carry
Posted by: DB- just DB at July 05, 2020 09:43 PM (iTXRQ)

Pretty much, unless you're using .32 or .380.

Make sure you shoot some of your JHP to confirm where the rounds land. It's common for different bullets to 'print' at different locations even with the same point of aim.

Posted by: Mark Andrew Edwards at July 05, 2020 09:47 PM (d1uFV)

450 So FMJ for the range and JHP for carry

-

If it's a new gun put a few hundred rounds through it, then spend the money and put at least 100 carry rounds through your pistol and magazines to make sure the round you like functions in your gun, too.

You don't want to find out that your pistol won't cycle the defensive round when you're right in the middle of a social encounter.

Posted by: Charles Darwin Doing the Humpty Dance on the Interstate at July 05, 2020 09:47 PM (kc5DY)

451 1. Am I alive?
2. Am I having a heart attack?
3. Am I going to have a heart attack?
4. I can't breathe.
Posted by: Braenyard at July 05, 2020 09:44 PM (MFsip)
-----
Ha! Very true!

Posted by: Weasel at July 05, 2020 09:47 PM (MVjcR)

452 MAE, about that RI thing, that's a used to be.
New Hampshire Red just doesn't have the same alliteration.
But both about the same distance from WA.

Posted by: RI Red at July 05, 2020 09:48 PM (HQ9xd)

453 1. Am I alive?
2. Am I having a heart attack?
3. Am I going to have a heart attack?
4. I can't breathe.
Posted by: Braenyard at July 05, 2020 09:44 PM (MFsip)

lol

Posted by: Mark Andrew Edwards at July 05, 2020 09:48 PM (d1uFV)

454 Thanks as always Weasel.

Posted by: Charles Darwin Doing the Humpty Dance on the Interstate at July 05, 2020 09:48 PM (kc5DY)

455 452 MAE, about that RI thing, that's a used to be.
New Hampshire Red just doesn't have the same alliteration.
But both about the same distance from WA.
Posted by: RI Red at July 05, 2020 09:48 PM (HQ9xd)

yes, still a very long walk. I tell you what, I'll pencil you in on the list. Who knows, one of us may be able to visit someday.

Posted by: Mark Andrew Edwards at July 05, 2020 09:49 PM (d1uFV)

456 Thanks Weasel, I'll check it out, and probably talk to my agent about it.
Posted by: rhomboid at July 05, 2020 09:46 PM (El6T/)
------
If you're Ok with it, let us know what you find out.

Posted by: Weasel at July 05, 2020 09:49 PM (MVjcR)

457 I have had a heart attack.

Thats not what i was thinking, just so you know.

Posted by: nurse ratched at July 05, 2020 09:51 PM (U2p+3)

458 Posted by: Charles Darwin Doing the Humpty Dance on the Interstate at July 05, 2020 09:48 PM (kc5DY)
------
My pleasure! Thank you!

Posted by: Weasel at July 05, 2020 09:51 PM (MVjcR)

459 And thanks LCD. I will take you up on that.

Posted by: RI Red at July 05, 2020 09:51 PM (HQ9xd)

460 "THEN she should have either called 911 or gone back into the Chipotle and let them call. Once she got in the car, she should have stayed in the car. If they started to surround the car, call the frickin' police."

Retreating and calling the police might have been the sound legal strategy, but it's a definite risk when it comes to actually protecting your life.

An action having legal consequences does not make it the wrong one, and in fact it may even be far more beneficial to society in discouraging the aggressive stalking that led to the confrontation in the first place.

Posted by: Sjg at July 05, 2020 09:52 PM (gDSJf)

461 413
Is IS a Grand Old Flag, isn't it?

Posted by: LeftCoast Dawg at July 05, 2020 09:25 PM (sy5kK)

Check out Cash at
http://acecomments.mu.nu/?blog=86&post=389045#c33083827

It's a good poem

Posted by: Braenyard at July 05, 2020 09:53 PM (MFsip)

462 OK, as much as I hate to, it's TTG.
Thanks, left coast morons. Thanks, Weasel and Co. Outstanding. And not in the rain.

Posted by: RI Red at July 05, 2020 09:53 PM (HQ9xd)

463 I have either a sights problem or a bad-shooting problem, since I was shooting the left-hand side of targets pretty consistently with my 1911. I think I was also pulling the AR shots left some.

Any discussion on how-to-shoot the M4-style sights? The ones like here: https://bit.ly/3gsEQGh ? Those are the only sights on the gun.
Posted by: GWB at July 05, 2020 08:54 PM (mRtYs)

MAYBE a trigger press problem?

Next time, try to press STRAIGHT back with the pad of the finger and see if point of impact goes back to the center.

Sights can be off, but if you're doing it with multiple guns, odds are it's more of a 'you' issue than an issue with the gun.

Posted by: Mark Andrew Edwards at July 05, 2020 09:54 PM (d1uFV)

464 Posted by: RI Red at July 05, 2020 09:53 PM (HQ9xd)
-----
See you next week, grasshopper!

Posted by: Weasel at July 05, 2020 09:54 PM (MVjcR)

465 Good night dear friend.

Posted by: Ben Had at July 05, 2020 09:58 PM (nudZs)

466 Good night dear friend.
Posted by: Ben Had at July 05, 2020 09:58 PM (nudZs)
------
Pleasant dreams, amiga!

Posted by: Weasel at July 05, 2020 10:03 PM (MVjcR)

467 Welp, looks like the thread be dead.

Thank you, Weasel sir, much appreciated.

See you in the grey boxes later.

Posted by: Mark Andrew Edwards at July 05, 2020 10:04 PM (d1uFV)

468 Posted by: Mark Andrew Edwards at July 05, 2020 10:04 PM (d1uFV)
-----
Seeya. Thanks for being here!

Posted by: Weasel at July 05, 2020 10:12 PM (MVjcR)

469 I'm checking the Chicago news about the "wilding" that happened on Michigan Ave last night. Not a word about it. Apparently that's not news BUT an Illinois car museum not getting rid of the Dukes of Hazzard car is
Posted by: TheQuietMan at July 05, 2020 07:47 PM (FB+VM)

Which Dukes of Hazzard car? There was a metric fuckton actually used (destroyed) in the show, and who knows how many clones.

Posted by: Alberta Oil Peon at July 05, 2020 10:29 PM (xwnNj)

470 Very strange.
Just got a call from the granddaughter, her partner, step-daughter, and son-in-law.inviting me to go with them to the Crossroads of the West Gunshow in Reno.
I was stunned.
I got them started over thirty years ago with Ruger 10-22s, but they have never been real people of the gun.
I was as surprised as they would have been had I invited them to spend a week at Disneyland with me.
They know how I feel about Disneyland (an abomination).
Very odd.

Posted by: waepnedmann at July 05, 2020 10:31 PM (zznIO)

471 "It was in this context the other day when someone wondered if their homeowners policy, specifically a liability umbrella policy, would start spewing cash in a self defense shooting."

What kind of Chicken shit is this? I asked that question. At no time did I characterize it in this way. Please. Do not ever put words in my mouth.

An umbrella policy can provide for attorney fees in the event of a lawsuit. I do believe a self-defense use of a firearm should" be covered. Just as a matter of principle. But that is not the world we live in.
Posted by: Common Tater at July 05, 2020 07:30 PM (mJRr3)
------
Hi Common Tater, That wasn't intended as a direct quote, I was trying to be funny in my characterization. Clearly I found it important enough to include in the thread. Sorry to upset you.

Posted by: Weasel at July 05, 2020 10:34 PM (MVjcR)

472 110 I would like to ask an off topic question.
I view this site on an iPad. Had it for 10 years and it is great for e mail and web browsing out on the patio.
Lately, I have had serious issues with AOS .mu .nu
It will not load and I get a message, saying that the site is reloading because of an issue.
It often times out.
The paranoid side of me thinks this is Apple restricting access due to the political flavor of the site.
I am not an Apple guy, but got this as a gift and it really is a nice piece of hardware, better than android tablet.
Anyone else see any of this lately
Posted by: Gunslinger at July 05, 2020 07:42 PM (0EC+

YES!
I have been having the same problem for about two weeks and it seems to be getting worse.

Posted by: waepnedmann at July 05, 2020 10:52 PM (zznIO)

473 What are they going to do with all those Steyr AUGs?

Posted by: Hairyback Guy at July 05, 2020 07:52 PM (Z+IKu)

Melt them down and build a practice statue?
(For toppling.)

Posted by: GWB at July 05, 2020 10:58 PM (mRtYs)

474 Guys I am on a phone so have to make this short. Update on the Orion
township gun situation. The couple are currently living in Michigan not
Missouri. Typical first report error. They were arraigned and released
on $50000 bond EACH cannot leave Michigan and had to surrender all their
weapons. The next day the husband who worked at Oakland University with
their veteran program was fired.

Posted by: Jen the original at July 05, 2020 09:17 PM (pOQsk)

Hopefully the guy sues the pants off the university for wrongful termination.

Posted by: redbanzai the Southerner at July 05, 2020 11:02 PM (nAiE/)

475 The conflict exists, the extremists want to provoke to the point lethal force becomes prudent, but expect you don't have the guts to defend yourself and you die with your gun holstered.

The other outcome is you go on a shooting spree and the left uses that as a opportunity to push guncontrol. Your dealing with psychos with an agenda, not normal people, and they WILL lie their asses off in court.

Posted by: ron n. at July 05, 2020 11:18 PM (om5HK)

476 they think that there will be no counter-attack;
that that won't blow up into a huge bloody massacre where 13% is the
very short end of the stick.

Posted by: RoyalOil at July 05, 2020 08:12 PM (ecx96)

They think either 1) our morals will stop us, or 2) some large group of gov't agents who are woker than they are white will step in and act on their side. Or, they're just really bad at numbers.

Posted by: GWB at July 05, 2020 11:29 PM (mRtYs)

477 Outside of those that have ben in combat, has anyone here ever been in a truly violent situation?

Yes, and though one occasion involved a shiv (shank in our terminology) I doubt bluebell was even born yet.

Posted by: waepnedmann at July 06, 2020 12:16 AM (zznIO)

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