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Jury Duty (and Open Thread) [KT]
Why exactly are people randomly picked to serve on a jury? Wouldn't it be better to let legal experts decide important court cases, and not a dozen random strangers? Who came up with this system, anyway? The answer to that last question, like most, is the ancient Greeks. In the groundbreaking Athenian democracy created in 507 B.C.E., all court cases were decided directly by the people. Huge juries of 500 people or more were selected every day from a pool of roughly 40,000 adult male citizens to rule on everything from murder cases to neighborly squabbles. . .A jury of 500 sounds a little unwieldy to me. What do you imagine that was like? The Magna Carta and the U.S. Constitution both emphasized the importance of juries. "Why" could be a good topic for the comments.
Today, U.S. federal law states that juries must be "selected at random from a fair cross section of the community ... wherein the court convenes." Hence the computer-selected names from a list of registered voters and licensed drivers. The law further states that "all citizens shall have the opportunity to be considered for service ... and shall have an obligation to serve as jurors when summoned for that purpose" . . . These two components of the U.S. jury system -- randomness and compulsory service -- combine to ensure that a jury is a representative sample of the community regardless of race, gender, political affiliation or ability to weasel out of jury duty.My recent jury service I was recently summoned to jury duty. I noticed a few changes from prior experiences, based on government ineptitude, mostly. I think. Maybe there are other factors. I wondered what the experiences of others were like. I started thinking about whether our jury system was serving the country well.
My first problem in my recent jury service was getting into the jury assembly room. A while ago, the county built a fancy new court building far removed from parking other than its own parking lot, which is inadequate on the days people are summoned to serve on juries. Mostly on Mondays. And it isn't easy to arrange transportation if you don't drive by yourself because you don't know how long you will be there.
The court is not real strict now about people showing up on time, which was a big deal in the past. Probably because you now have to figure out where to park, somewhere roughly a half a mile away or more, if you didn't arrive half an hour early. They don't give you any clues about the parking situation when you are summoned. "No Juror Parking" signs are posted at the jail, which is a little hike from the court building, but closer than other county parking. Once everyone was inside the jury assembly room, we were told not to park on private property. A little late for those kinds of instructions, don't you think? Speaking of "late", even though many people show up half an hour early or more, the county doesn't start processing them through the worse-than-airport security screens until about the time people are due in the jury assembly room. So there are still people lined up around two sides of the building when everybody is supposed to be in the jury assembly room. They hire outside private security even though they have bailiffs for the courts, to herd people before they enter the building and through the security screens. An hour and a quarter after reporting time, following computerized sign-in, they began reading lists of names assigned to various courtrooms. Bailiffs escorted these large groups of people out of the jury assembly room. There were vending machines for food and drink, restricted to a tiny snack area of the jury assembly room. Items seemed to come only in giant sizes so you would have to throw part of your snack away if you were called up to a courtroom. I was in a group that was to wait for a specific courtroom, but a bailiff did not appear before lunch. Another group had already been called to that courtroom. Other groups were called and led away to other courtrooms after my group was specified. Very confusing. I counted about 60 people in one of the other groups. I think there were more. Seems like a lot for one trial. After lunch, I noticed that not enough people had been dismissed during the morning to allow those who had a good chance of being chosen for a trial to find a place to park in the court parking lot, unless they drove hybrid or electric vehicles. Several people in my group, still assigned to the jury assembly room, did not return from lunch. Uh-oh. My group was dismissed a couple of hours later. I have no idea what was originally planned for that little group that remained in the jury assembly room after lunch. I was kind of relieved, because the last time I was called in, I was dismissed from a regular trial only to be chosen for a grand jury late in the day. But my recent experience was more bewildering than fulfilling or satisfying. How does my experience compare to yours? I wondered why procedures seemed clunkier in the fancy, spacious new building with the inadequate parking lot than they had been in the old, cramped building. They had security screens there, too. Not quite as extensive. Is it just because of government that things are worse now? At least they have changed the law in California so you don't have to call in for a week if you are not chosen for a trial the first day. Some places are trying to make the juror experience more pleasant. Pierce County, Washington has tried to add elements of a staycation to the juror experience. One judge thinks that characterization is disrespectful. Incidentally, 220 jurors were brought in for three serious criminal trials not long afterward. That's a lot of potential jurors. Voir Dire and related issues I also wondered about the large number of people in the jury pools as I sat in the jury assembly room. I don't think there were any spectacular trials expected that week. The guys sitting on either side of me seemed OK. One person near me in line outside the building I would not have wanted on a jury. Are we going overboard in allowing attorneys to select jurors for desired outcomes? Years ago, I was seated in a jury box before any questions were asked of jurors. There were not a lot of other potential jurors in the room. (The case was settled, so I didn't hear it). For the trial of the Dallas cop who shot the black guy in his apartment (thinking it was her apartment), 4,000 jury summons went out. Starts to sound like ancient Athens. But these potential jurors were not called in to form a jury of 500 people. I was in the jury pool for an attempted murder case once. It was certainly no where near that big, even though the victim almost died and there were serious possibilities of bias in either direction due to related criminal activity by both the victim and defendant. I really thought I might be chosen for that jury. I think jury pools are bigger now, just in general. What do you think? Ace brought up another form of "jury selection" in a post about McCabe:I don't believe anyone has ever authorized a change of venue based on the fact of very high partisan bias. So liberal politicos will always be tried in liberal areas, and they'll almost always be acquitted by Susan McDougal-style juries. And here's a good question: If our leftwing alleged fellow citizens will no longer do their duty as jurors and render verdicts in cases based on the facts rather than on tribal loyalties, do we really have a country any longer?
Titania McGrath knows how to simplify jury duty:
I've just been summoned for jury duty. To save time, I've emailed them my verdict: Person of colour = innocentPsychology and Juries On a more general note, both perpetrators and the general public are less inclined now than in the past to assume that criminals are responsible for criminal behavior. Murderers don't say "I stabbed him", now they say the knife went in. A similar attitude shows up in all sorts of ways in our lives now. Airplanes took aim at the World Trade Center according to that tweet from the NYT, for example. People have less appreciation for the connection between freedom and responsibility. And then there are the psychological manipulations which are common in the courtroom now - changing the focus to the defendant's childhood and such. How do you think these changes have affected the jury system? Things have changed in our society just since this song was a hit, which was before I knew what a hit song was, but not all that long ago for a civilization. It's not that people are never shamed by society anymore. It's that they are now often shamed and expected to accept responsibility more as representatives of groups, and sometimes for ways of thinking, than for specific criminal acts:
White = guilty So much easier than actually turning up...
Comments
(Jump to bottom of comments)1
Sponge!
Posted by: Mr Aspirin Factory at September 21, 2019 10:48 AM (dgc3h)
2
"built a fancy new court building far removed from parking other than its own parking lot"
That's because you, the plebeian are expected to take the bus, while the elites drive. You know, to save the erf and whatnot.
That's because you, the plebeian are expected to take the bus, while the elites drive. You know, to save the erf and whatnot.
Posted by: Lurking Lurker - Not In My Purview at September 21, 2019 10:50 AM (FiUMj)
Posted by: Bertram Cabot, Jr. at September 21, 2019 10:51 AM (aKsyK)
4
You would need 125 stools in order to seat the jury.
Posted by: Mr Aspirin Factory at September 21, 2019 10:52 AM (dgc3h)
5
FACEBOOK DECLARES IT'S A 'PUBLISHER,' CAN CENSOR WHOMEVER IT WANTS...
-
So it can be sued for defamation?
-
So it can be sued for defamation?
Posted by: Anonosaurus Wrecks, Tyrannosaur Wrangler at September 21, 2019 10:52 AM (+y/Ru)
6
I saw a discussion of posses the other day. Apparently 46 states still have laws on the books that can force you to join a posse.
As one person commented, "Think of it as jury duty, but with guns."
As one person commented, "Think of it as jury duty, but with guns."
Posted by: Rodrigo Borgia at September 21, 2019 10:54 AM (9xVRr)
7
Soggy morning. Monsoon rains. Coffee on the porch.
Posted by: None shall pass at September 21, 2019 10:54 AM (JdcHc)
8
> So it can be sued for defamation?
Likewise for copyright violation.
I don't think their lawyers really thought this one through.
Likewise for copyright violation.
I don't think their lawyers really thought this one through.
Posted by: Rodrigo Borgia at September 21, 2019 10:55 AM (9xVRr)
9
Can 500 jurors reach a unanimous decision?
Posted by: Bertram Cabot
----
I think we can unanimously agree to a big, fat - NO!
Wait a minute. . .
Posted by: Bertram Cabot
----
I think we can unanimously agree to a big, fat - NO!
Wait a minute. . .
Posted by: Tonypete at September 21, 2019 10:55 AM (Y4EXg)
10
5: sounds like it
Posted by: Mr Aspirin Factory at September 21, 2019 10:56 AM (dgc3h)
11
Twelve Angry Men has a great cast and good performances (St. Fonda notwithstanding), but it winds up with so many miraculous revelations and co-incidences that it's harder and harder to put up with the more times you see it.
Posted by: Mr. Peebles at September 21, 2019 10:57 AM (oVJmc)
12
the plebeian are expected to take the bus, while the elites drive. You know, to save the erf and whatnot."
That and you don't want "regular" folk on juries... might lead to badthink and all that...
That and you don't want "regular" folk on juries... might lead to badthink and all that...
Posted by: Anon a mouse at September 21, 2019 10:57 AM (6qErC)
13
Until a "jury duty" notice arrives by registered mail,
it never happened.
A resident at this address 25 years ago,
before I bought the place, still gets jury notices here.
They don't know if I am even alive...
Yes. Public Duty Shirker. that's me.
I have better things to do with my time
than participate in the legal charade of justice.
it never happened.
A resident at this address 25 years ago,
before I bought the place, still gets jury notices here.
They don't know if I am even alive...
Yes. Public Duty Shirker. that's me.
I have better things to do with my time
than participate in the legal charade of justice.
Posted by: retropox at September 21, 2019 10:58 AM (i8uro)
14
I've had jury duty three times, twice for my county and once for Federal court. Each time, I was dismissed without ever being interviewed because they had enough jurors for the cases. One time, the jury pool was dismissed because all of the cases plea bargained rather than go to trial.
Posted by: rickl at September 21, 2019 10:59 AM (sdi6R)
15
If I am ever on a federal jury it's not guilty from me. Fuck you Deep State.
Posted by: Lurking Lurker - Not In My Purview at September 21, 2019 11:00 AM (FiUMj)
16
I have not been called for Jury duty in about 25 years.. I have no idea why..
Posted by: Chi-Town Jerry at September 21, 2019 11:01 AM (438dO)
17
So it can be sued for defamation?
Posted by: Anonosaurus Wrecks, Tyrannosaur Wrangler at September 21, 2019 10:52 AM (+y/Ru)
********
Hahahahahaha
Posted by: Anonosaurus Wrecks, Tyrannosaur Wrangler at September 21, 2019 10:52 AM (+y/Ru)
********
Hahahahahaha
Posted by: Twatter, Instaface, Gaggle, Pintercrap at September 21, 2019 11:02 AM (flINI)
18
Back in the early eighties, I worked in a shop where we were forced union conscripts. One of the young guys was bitching up a storm about getting selected for jury duty, and that was the last time he would ever register to vote. Somehow, and there are people here who know the procedure, he gets on a Fed grand jury. This was, like I said, in the early eighties, and the feds were busting the mob heavy in Youngstown and Cleveland. The kid gets sequestered in a hotel, does his thing, and thanks to the union contract that drove out the plant, gets paid his jury money plus average daily pay based on incentive. This went on for many weeks, and the kid became a patriot, always registering to vote.
Posted by: bill in arkansas at September 21, 2019 11:02 AM (C1Lsn)
19
Had it once probably 20 years ago, thought it was a good civic duty experience, it was a personal injury jury and was foreman.
Posted by: Skip at September 21, 2019 11:04 AM (ZCEU2)
20
Lurking Lurker:
right on, right on, RIGHT ON!
I'm going to judge someone based on some FBI guy's notes,
of what **he says** the accused said?
The FBI? After the revelations of last two years?
Nope.
right on, right on, RIGHT ON!
I'm going to judge someone based on some FBI guy's notes,
of what **he says** the accused said?
The FBI? After the revelations of last two years?
Nope.
Posted by: retropox at September 21, 2019 11:05 AM (i8uro)
21
>>>A jury of 500 sounds a little unwieldy to me. What do you imagine that was like?
The Magna Carta and the U.S. Constitution both emphasized the importance of juries.
"Why" could be a good topic for the comments.
++++++++++++++++++++
Because thousands of years ago 'they' realized that 500 randum people from the phone book were more objective and less subject to corruption than any prosecutor or judge.
You would think Chief Justice Roberts would acknowledge that.
The Magna Carta and the U.S. Constitution both emphasized the importance of juries.
"Why" could be a good topic for the comments.
++++++++++++++++++++
Because thousands of years ago 'they' realized that 500 randum people from the phone book were more objective and less subject to corruption than any prosecutor or judge.
You would think Chief Justice Roberts would acknowledge that.
Posted by: Burnt Toast at September 21, 2019 11:05 AM (1g7ch)
22
I went to traffic court not long ago. It was in a small town, which sucked for me as it was a 90 min drive each way but well worth it to avoid a massive insurance hike. I got the infraction dropped in half. Woo hoo!!
Anyway it was a small town and traffic court is mixed with regular court. So I was on the same docket as assault cases, DUis, speeding, B&E, etc. It was a motley crue of defendants sitting there together.
About 1/2 the people didn't even show up, which ended up with bench warrants issued.
Gave a look into a slice of America I never really see. Pathetic, sad looking people, whose lives fucking suck.
Anyway it was a small town and traffic court is mixed with regular court. So I was on the same docket as assault cases, DUis, speeding, B&E, etc. It was a motley crue of defendants sitting there together.
About 1/2 the people didn't even show up, which ended up with bench warrants issued.
Gave a look into a slice of America I never really see. Pathetic, sad looking people, whose lives fucking suck.
Posted by: Lurking Lurker - Not In My Purview at September 21, 2019 11:05 AM (FiUMj)
23
Having a post-graduate degree will largely get you excused from actually being on a jury for a trial. That has been my experience during voir dire.
I wonder if the system would work better if the prosecution and defense didn't get peremptory strikes, but had to cite cause to strike a potential juror.
I wonder if the system would work better if the prosecution and defense didn't get peremptory strikes, but had to cite cause to strike a potential juror.
Posted by: Muldoon at September 21, 2019 11:06 AM (m45I2)
24
Didn't get called last time I got a JD notice because B'Gal.
Posted by: BackwardsBoy - #PurgeProgressivism at September 21, 2019 11:06 AM (HaL55)
25
Where does Nadler buy his pants?
Posted by: Doggfish at September 21, 2019 11:07 AM (lMn1U)
26
3 Can 500 jurors reach a unanimous decision?
Posted by: Bertram Cabot, Jr. at September 21, 2019 10:51 AM (aKsyK)
Can one feminist reach a unanimous decision?
Posted by: Bertram Cabot, Jr. at September 21, 2019 10:51 AM (aKsyK)
Can one feminist reach a unanimous decision?
Posted by: Roy at September 21, 2019 11:08 AM (ABjxW)
27
I'm in CA, when called to serve on a jury I tell the judge,
given the state itself through it's sanctuary laws and policies is an accomplice in every crime committed by any illegal alien in the state, including but not limited to identity theft, welfare fraud, human trafficking, drug smuggling, sexual assaults, assault, vehicular manslaughter and homicide, I can not in good faith convict anyone of anything.
given the state itself through it's sanctuary laws and policies is an accomplice in every crime committed by any illegal alien in the state, including but not limited to identity theft, welfare fraud, human trafficking, drug smuggling, sexual assaults, assault, vehicular manslaughter and homicide, I can not in good faith convict anyone of anything.
Posted by: You're in Hell, the world ended at September 21, 2019 11:08 AM (ETNDZ)
Posted by: Acme Circus Tents at September 21, 2019 11:09 AM (2cuLk)
29
Where does Nadler buy his pants?
Posted by: Doggfish
---
Goodyear Aerospace - I think they still have a contract agreement with the Luftschiffbau Zeppelin Company.
Posted by: Doggfish
---
Goodyear Aerospace - I think they still have a contract agreement with the Luftschiffbau Zeppelin Company.
Posted by: Tonypete at September 21, 2019 11:10 AM (Y4EXg)
30
26 3 Can 500 jurors reach a unanimous decision?
Posted by: Bertram Cabot, Jr. at September 21, 2019 10:51 AM (aKsyK)
Can one feminist reach a unanimous decision?
Posted by: Roy at September 21, 2019 11:08 AM (ABjxW)
THAT'S FUNNY, BECAUSE XHE WOULD SAY THAT'S NOT FUNNY.
Posted by: Bertram Cabot, Jr. at September 21, 2019 10:51 AM (aKsyK)
Can one feminist reach a unanimous decision?
Posted by: Roy at September 21, 2019 11:08 AM (ABjxW)
THAT'S FUNNY, BECAUSE XHE WOULD SAY THAT'S NOT FUNNY.
Posted by: BEN ROETHLISBERGER at September 21, 2019 11:10 AM (ABjxW)
31
Every time (in the past 20+ yrs), when I've been called up for jury duty, I've been "voir dire'd" out of the jury pool... they were all criminal (vs civil) trials, and oddly ;p, defense lawyers don't seem to be keen on jurors who have experienced crime first-hand.
Go figure...
Go figure...
Posted by: CPT. Charles at September 21, 2019 11:10 AM (W+kMI)
Posted by: Muldoon at September 21, 2019 11:10 AM (m45I2)
33
Just call up all of us old guys. That's lottery, dog track, and early bird special money for free!
Posted by: bill in arkansas at September 21, 2019 11:10 AM (C1Lsn)
34
Two other times since had a shot at having to go but in this county there is a day before you find out calling in or on line if you have to go and didn't have to report.
Last year had Federal grand jury pool but didn't get picked, it sounded like a prison sentence having to go 1 day a week for 2 years. Out of the pool groups got called and 5 would get put of it, out of the next 5, 3 more got out and kept going until they had the number needed. Only wondered if I had a good chance of working 5 days including Saturday and jury duty 1 day a week.
Last year had Federal grand jury pool but didn't get picked, it sounded like a prison sentence having to go 1 day a week for 2 years. Out of the pool groups got called and 5 would get put of it, out of the next 5, 3 more got out and kept going until they had the number needed. Only wondered if I had a good chance of working 5 days including Saturday and jury duty 1 day a week.
Posted by: Skip at September 21, 2019 11:11 AM (ZCEU2)
35
18 Back in the early eighties, I worked in a shop where we were forced union conscripts. One of the young guys was bitching up a storm about getting selected for jury duty, and that was the last time he would ever register to vote.
Posted by: bill in arkansas at September 21, 2019 11:02 AM (C1Lsn)
One of the times when I was called, they had a judge come out to speak to the jury pool about civic duty, etc. She said that if you think you can escape by not registering to vote, think again, because we also select from the driver registration lists.
Posted by: bill in arkansas at September 21, 2019 11:02 AM (C1Lsn)
One of the times when I was called, they had a judge come out to speak to the jury pool about civic duty, etc. She said that if you think you can escape by not registering to vote, think again, because we also select from the driver registration lists.
Posted by: rickl at September 21, 2019 11:11 AM (sdi6R)
36
Back in the early 90s, I was defendant in an alcohol related offense with a jury trial. An elderly black gentleman wearing a silk jacket with the name of a local bar was called up. He admitted to needing a few drinks daily, and saw that as normal. My attorney was already scratching his name off when the prosecutor said she'd accept him. When the jury left the room, the judge asked what she was thinking. The prosecutor, a young black lady, smugly said, "Maybe I know something you don't". All I know was I was acquitted.
Posted by: JonasGrumby at September 21, 2019 11:11 AM (bazIK)
37
Over the years I've probably ignored six or seven jury summonses. I happen to know that in my jurisdiction nothing is done to enforce them, so it's a freebie.
Over the same period I've tried about 25 jury trials. I guess that makes me kind of a hypocrite. But the reality is that I would never be accepted for a jury panel because no lawyer would have another trial lawyer in the box.
That's how I justify it, anyway.
Over the same period I've tried about 25 jury trials. I guess that makes me kind of a hypocrite. But the reality is that I would never be accepted for a jury panel because no lawyer would have another trial lawyer in the box.
That's how I justify it, anyway.
Posted by: Cicero (@cicero) at September 21, 2019 11:12 AM (ZYB2s)
38
8 > So it can be sued for defamation?
Likewise for copyright violation.
I don't think their lawyers really thought this one through.
Posted by: Rodrigo Borgia at September 21, 2019 10:55 AM (9xVRr)
They have other lawyers who will argue that they are like a common carrier and not responsible for what users post.
Likewise for copyright violation.
I don't think their lawyers really thought this one through.
Posted by: Rodrigo Borgia at September 21, 2019 10:55 AM (9xVRr)
They have other lawyers who will argue that they are like a common carrier and not responsible for what users post.
Posted by: Fox2! at September 21, 2019 11:12 AM (KaupC)
39
"What have your jury experiences been like?"
I sit in a room with 200 people for four hours. Then they send us all home. Twice so far.
I sit in a room with 200 people for four hours. Then they send us all home. Twice so far.
Posted by: gp, Decaffeinated By Popular Demand at September 21, 2019 11:13 AM (mk9aG)
40
"Having a post-graduate degree will largely get you excused from actually being on a jury for a trial." Muldoon
That's some solace.
I'll cite my doctorate in molecular genetics,
announce that any evidence other than full-coverage
whole genome DNA evidence will get a "not guilty" vote from me,
and go home. After wasting a day.
But only if summoned in person.
"We sent you a letter" ..never happened.
That's some solace.
I'll cite my doctorate in molecular genetics,
announce that any evidence other than full-coverage
whole genome DNA evidence will get a "not guilty" vote from me,
and go home. After wasting a day.
But only if summoned in person.
"We sent you a letter" ..never happened.
Posted by: retropox at September 21, 2019 11:13 AM (i8uro)
41
Being a vet seems to be a silver bullet for not getting jury duty, at least in WA. Never been summoned.
Posted by: flounder, rebel, vulgarian, deplorable, winner at September 21, 2019 11:14 AM (jYnPD)
42
I was in voir dire with a big local auto dealer owner. When he heard that the case was a he-said/she-said fender bender civil lawsuit, he told the judge there was no way he could be impartial because he is sued all the time for nitpicky bullshit. Judge dismissed him as soon as he finished saying that. We all got a chuckle out of that.
Posted by: Roy at September 21, 2019 11:14 AM (ABjxW)
43
Speaking about problematic jury pools, here's the FB link to MIchael Yon's live-feed journalism from HK
https://tinyurl.com/y4h49xt6
Apparently the HK'ers are unhappy with businesses knuckling under to the Central govt; and, unsurprisingly, the HK police are making things worst .
https://tinyurl.com/y4h49xt6
Apparently the HK'ers are unhappy with businesses knuckling under to the Central govt; and, unsurprisingly, the HK police are making things worst .
Posted by: CPT. Charles at September 21, 2019 11:14 AM (W+kMI)
44
Ah. The all important first coffee of the morning.
Posted by: Alberta Oil Peon at September 21, 2019 11:14 AM (jEgzt)
45
The trial I was picked I was the very first person picked, juror #1, was told somewhere during that my chances getting tossed by either side was 0.
Posted by: Skip at September 21, 2019 11:14 AM (ZCEU2)
46
I like Twelve Angry Men as much as the next movie buff. But I figure that the kid they acquitted went on to a violent crime career that cost innocent lives. Should have convicted the kid, nipped the bud.
Posted by: gp, Decaffeinated By Popular Demand at September 21, 2019 11:15 AM (mk9aG)
47
As Joe Biden might say, "Criminals deserve a trial by a jury of their peers as much as white people do!"
Posted by: Muldoon at September 21, 2019 11:15 AM (m45I2)
Posted by: Anon a mouse at September 21, 2019 11:15 AM (6qErC)
49
I've been called 3 times for jury duty, first 2 times when they ask you for some background (who you are, what you do, etc.)When I mentioned being a Vietnam vet, I got dismissed immediately.
3rd time ended with the defendant pleading guilty to the charges.
I don't mind being called, really, you get a look at some prize specimens.
I've been called 3 times for jury duty, first 2 times when they ask you for some background (who you are, what you do, etc.)When I mentioned being a Vietnam vet, I got dismissed immediately.
3rd time ended with the defendant pleading guilty to the charges.
I don't mind being called, really, you get a look at some prize specimens.
Posted by: irongampa at September 21, 2019 11:15 AM (KATBx)
50
Every few years I get summoned for jury duty multiple times in a single year. Record was 5 times. I've only actually had to appear once. All the other times the case was either plea bargained or received a continuation.
Posted by: AZ Hi Desert (Gringo fuertemente armado) at September 21, 2019 11:15 AM (l7Kbv)
51
I've never been called for jury duty. My wife has, a couple of times, but I don't think she ever actually went in. They just gave her a number to call in the morning, and they would let her know if she needed to come in.
Posted by: No One of Consequence at September 21, 2019 11:16 AM (CAJOC)
52
I've seen too many unbelievable , illogical jury decisions to have any confidence in that system. That said I don't know if allowing a panel of judges / experts render a verdict would be any better.
Posted by: Pig to man dreaming of lions at September 21, 2019 11:18 AM (2DOZq)
53
Once our jury pool was called to a courtroom for a trial and after we got off the elevator and into the courtroom, the judge said they had just settled while we were on the way up. We got our checks and were able to leave. Judges say the jury call is a great motivator for a plea deal.
Posted by: Roy at September 21, 2019 11:18 AM (ABjxW)
Posted by: Bertram Cabot, Jr. at September 21, 2019 11:18 AM (aKsyK)
55
"Can one feminist reach a unanimous decision?" Yes, but she'll change her mind three times before Sunday.
Posted by: gp, Decaffeinated By Popular Demand at September 21, 2019 11:18 AM (mk9aG)
56
I had jury duty once many years ago. The start was like you describe, when we were finally empaneled the trial was a civil trial. Some guy suing Audi about his car. The complaining attorney started his opening statement and made some mildly disparaging comment about Audi, I don't recall what. That was it, we were dismissed.
Got stuck in a second panel this for DUI. Some school teacher. She claimed they went to a restaurant around 6 PM and left around 11. She also insisted they didn't sit around drinking. She failed the breath-o-meter and the field check. So we got to the jury room could not come to a unanimous decision. Some women was worried that the teacher would get fired. I finally pointed out that I knew waitresses and there was no way that one would allow a party to take up her table for 5 hours without buying stuff and that stuff had to be drinks. Voted again, guilty.
I just got my second jury notice in June as we were leaving on a long trip, applied for a delay and now I have it mid-October. They sent a parking pass for the parking garage BTW. This in Florida.
Got stuck in a second panel this for DUI. Some school teacher. She claimed they went to a restaurant around 6 PM and left around 11. She also insisted they didn't sit around drinking. She failed the breath-o-meter and the field check. So we got to the jury room could not come to a unanimous decision. Some women was worried that the teacher would get fired. I finally pointed out that I knew waitresses and there was no way that one would allow a party to take up her table for 5 hours without buying stuff and that stuff had to be drinks. Voted again, guilty.
I just got my second jury notice in June as we were leaving on a long trip, applied for a delay and now I have it mid-October. They sent a parking pass for the parking garage BTW. This in Florida.
Posted by: agesilaus at September 21, 2019 11:18 AM (eLfhe)
57
When everybody is responsible, nobody is responsible.
Another version of the tragedy of the commons.
Another version of the tragedy of the commons.
Posted by: Boots at September 21, 2019 11:19 AM (oGBso)
58
"I never saw the 1997 version of 12 Angry Men." Don't! It sucks canal water.
Posted by: gp, Decaffeinated By Popular Demand at September 21, 2019 11:19 AM (mk9aG)
59
I think the problem with your experience was mostly government. It will always be unwieldy getting people together, but you described just about the most dysfunctional system I can imagine.
Where I live, jury pools are divided up by judge/court. You get a notice (registered mail) from the judge's office, have to send in a questionnaire. Then, for a three-month period, if they need to impanel a jury for a specific case, they call you and tell you, along with enough other people to make up the correct sized pool, to show up on the required day. They don't all do it on the same day, and they don't bring you to the courthouse until you're needed. They also schedule jury trials for morning, so that you will either go through the selection process or be told it settled before you've been waiting too terribly long. One sure-fire way to piss off one of the local trial judges is to waste a jury's time. They will not hesitate to rip you up one side and down the other.
They also recently built a parking deck next to the courthouse, big enough to handle all the normal business of the county plus jurors.
Most of that comes down to government attitude. This is Arkansas, not California, so we're still seen as citizens rather than subjects.
Where I live, jury pools are divided up by judge/court. You get a notice (registered mail) from the judge's office, have to send in a questionnaire. Then, for a three-month period, if they need to impanel a jury for a specific case, they call you and tell you, along with enough other people to make up the correct sized pool, to show up on the required day. They don't all do it on the same day, and they don't bring you to the courthouse until you're needed. They also schedule jury trials for morning, so that you will either go through the selection process or be told it settled before you've been waiting too terribly long. One sure-fire way to piss off one of the local trial judges is to waste a jury's time. They will not hesitate to rip you up one side and down the other.
They also recently built a parking deck next to the courthouse, big enough to handle all the normal business of the county plus jurors.
Most of that comes down to government attitude. This is Arkansas, not California, so we're still seen as citizens rather than subjects.
Posted by: BDS at September 21, 2019 11:19 AM (rx5J2)
60
Been summoned numerous times. The last one was horrible. I think I spent almost 3 days there. It was a horrific child molester case. To make it worse, the perp was the son of a client of the firm and came in to sign poa's before the trial started. I had to draft docs and notarize.
Posted by: Infidel at September 21, 2019 11:20 AM (BLFnH)
61
I served on a jury a couple of decades ago and it went pretty well. The procedures in the courthouse seemed well-organized for one thing. We acquitted a woman accused of larceny despite her having signed a confession. I won't go into the details, but we all strongly felt she was coerced and the prosecution's main witness was not very persuasive. Funny thing is we thought the prosecutor was a better attorney than the defense, though I can't recall if that was a public defender and lots of them get crushed with caseload.
Posted by: Chriscom at September 21, 2019 11:21 AM (LAF/s)
62
Posted by: agesilaus at September 21, 2019 11:18 AM (eLfhe)
You were making up your own facts unless the waitress testified she served the defendant.
You were making up your own facts unless the waitress testified she served the defendant.
Posted by: Pig to man dreaming of lions at September 21, 2019 11:22 AM (2DOZq)
63
I've been called three times and dismissed three times. Nobody wants a nurse that comes from a LEO family.
Posted by: Cheriebebe at September 21, 2019 11:22 AM (a4qVe)
64
Last time I got called for jury duty was about a year ago. I didn't get selected, but did get to be in the courtroom during voir dire. The case was a criminal case of ongoing sexual abuse of two children over a several year period. The defendant was either stepfather or mother's live-in boyfriend during the alleged incidents.
The odd thing was the trial started immediately after jury selection was completed. Local news the next several days had zero (as in none) coverage. I looked up the court docket on-line and found the judge, the court, the courtroom; but zero (as in none) record of the defendant, the case or the trial. It was as if it had been scrubbed. I'm not sure what to make of that.
The odd thing was the trial started immediately after jury selection was completed. Local news the next several days had zero (as in none) coverage. I looked up the court docket on-line and found the judge, the court, the courtroom; but zero (as in none) record of the defendant, the case or the trial. It was as if it had been scrubbed. I'm not sure what to make of that.
Posted by: Muldoon at September 21, 2019 11:22 AM (m45I2)
65
I served on a jury where the challenges exhausted the jury pool in the courtroom...the judge sent the bailiffs out @lunch break to shang-hai potential jurors off the streets.
Posted by: BignJames at September 21, 2019 11:22 AM (X/Pw5)
66
"prosecutorial misconduct":
I wanted to comment on Ace's recent casual statement here that "prosecutors withhold exculpatory evidence" they are supposed to turn over in discovery "all the time."
No, they do not. It's extremely rare. Here are the reasons it's rare:
1) Being a state or federal prosecutor (I was both) is a JOB! I ain't gonna get myself fired for that kind of silly bullizh*t! For 37 years, if I get it, it goes out the door to defense counsel almost instantly-- a few names of informants may need to be redacted, but defense counsel can SEE that those redactions were made, & challenge them if they want. I never heard of a prosecutor THAT I KNEW (hundreds) risking his/her job over THAT. I mean, I want to win as much as Vince Lombardi did, but... I had no PERSONAL stake in a given verdict. If you have hundreds of them assigned to you over the years, how would you CHOOSE which one to withhold discovery on, & thereby risk your job, Ace?
2) Prosecutors, especially federal ones (AUSA's) are very closely watched trains! Multiple layers of supervisors are looking at YOU. Judges think nothing of reaming the govt out for even a HINT of "prosecutorial misconduct," & that can be a career killer, if a judge puts that in writing, which they regularly do.
3) The complaint/investigatory machinery is STAGGERING. I doubt that many private employees have ever worked with that type of legal doomsday machine hanging over their heads 24/7.
4) The most infamous case in which federal prosecutors withheld exculpatory evidence from discovery was Senator Ted Stevens. That was an atrocity. The AUSA's who were responsible (and who must've had a prodigious death wish) all got fired, as I recall. Careers destroyed too. Good. Now... there are 5000 AUSA's at any given time. Ever hear of a dirty cop? Or ANY organization of that size that didn't have some really bad apples? Another AUSA within living memory, it wasn't that long ago, got arrested on his way to have sex with a 10-yr-old child he had hooked-up with on the 'Net. He killed himself. Good. But the Ted Stevens prosecutors AND the pervert were... atypical.
I wanted to comment on Ace's recent casual statement here that "prosecutors withhold exculpatory evidence" they are supposed to turn over in discovery "all the time."
No, they do not. It's extremely rare. Here are the reasons it's rare:
1) Being a state or federal prosecutor (I was both) is a JOB! I ain't gonna get myself fired for that kind of silly bullizh*t! For 37 years, if I get it, it goes out the door to defense counsel almost instantly-- a few names of informants may need to be redacted, but defense counsel can SEE that those redactions were made, & challenge them if they want. I never heard of a prosecutor THAT I KNEW (hundreds) risking his/her job over THAT. I mean, I want to win as much as Vince Lombardi did, but... I had no PERSONAL stake in a given verdict. If you have hundreds of them assigned to you over the years, how would you CHOOSE which one to withhold discovery on, & thereby risk your job, Ace?
2) Prosecutors, especially federal ones (AUSA's) are very closely watched trains! Multiple layers of supervisors are looking at YOU. Judges think nothing of reaming the govt out for even a HINT of "prosecutorial misconduct," & that can be a career killer, if a judge puts that in writing, which they regularly do.
3) The complaint/investigatory machinery is STAGGERING. I doubt that many private employees have ever worked with that type of legal doomsday machine hanging over their heads 24/7.
4) The most infamous case in which federal prosecutors withheld exculpatory evidence from discovery was Senator Ted Stevens. That was an atrocity. The AUSA's who were responsible (and who must've had a prodigious death wish) all got fired, as I recall. Careers destroyed too. Good. Now... there are 5000 AUSA's at any given time. Ever hear of a dirty cop? Or ANY organization of that size that didn't have some really bad apples? Another AUSA within living memory, it wasn't that long ago, got arrested on his way to have sex with a 10-yr-old child he had hooked-up with on the 'Net. He killed himself. Good. But the Ted Stevens prosecutors AND the pervert were... atypical.
Posted by: mnw at September 21, 2019 11:25 AM (Cssks)
67
Infidel, how were you not disqualified from the jury, then?
Posted by: Huck Follywood, a low grade social fever at September 21, 2019 11:25 AM (NVYyb)
68
63 I've been called three times and dismissed three times. Nobody wants a nurse that comes from a LEO family.
Posted by: Cheriebebe at September 21, 2019 11:22 AM (a4qVe)
--------
In civil litigation, there's almost always one side who wants stupid jurors and one side who doesn't. It becomes a battle to see which side exhausts its peremptory challenges first.
Posted by: Cheriebebe at September 21, 2019 11:22 AM (a4qVe)
--------
In civil litigation, there's almost always one side who wants stupid jurors and one side who doesn't. It becomes a battle to see which side exhausts its peremptory challenges first.
Posted by: Cicero (@cicero) at September 21, 2019 11:26 AM (ZYB2s)
69
Some people shived something.
Posted by: Little Lupe at September 21, 2019 11:26 AM (EgshT)
70
Only time I was called, about 10 years ago, was a drug-trafficking case where the evidence was iffy and really just prejudice: if you had a video of your front door/driveway you were running a drug house; if you had $1k cash stashed in a suit jacket you were a trafficker; if you had old cellphones in a box you were a trafficker; and the worst was the vicious dog who objected to a 3am knockdown raid (black lab crated at the time).
Learned afterwards that this raid was a multi-jurisdictional high-level clusterf action that netted nothing but a dead dog and multiple jury trials.
For me, the oddest impression was that the younger jurors were totally pro-prosecution 'because he must have done something wrong' and the older ones were a little more skeptical. Us oldsters kept cash (bail money or downpayments); had motion sensor lights to deter burglars; and would never imagine shooting a properly crated dog.
Learned afterwards that this raid was a multi-jurisdictional high-level clusterf action that netted nothing but a dead dog and multiple jury trials.
For me, the oddest impression was that the younger jurors were totally pro-prosecution 'because he must have done something wrong' and the older ones were a little more skeptical. Us oldsters kept cash (bail money or downpayments); had motion sensor lights to deter burglars; and would never imagine shooting a properly crated dog.
Posted by: mustbequantum at September 21, 2019 11:27 AM (MIKMs)
71
Juries are made up of Union teachers, gov employees, cops, firemen and the like. The 13 bucks a day they get is in addition to their regular pay. Us self employed types can't afford jury duty, so we find ways to get excused the first day of selection. If I was in the pool for a case I felt strongly about , I'd likely take the hit and serve, but the shit going to trial is really stupid shit that should be handled by adults across their back fence.
Posted by: Ass Chum at September 21, 2019 11:27 AM (Jj+59)
72
The jury I wish I served on was the one that convicted that concealed carrier who got shoved down by that big thug. No way would I have voted him guilty of "standing your ground" while actually "sitting on the ground." The world is a far better place without that belligerent thug he popped. Yes, I would have nullified.
Posted by: gp, Decaffeinated By Popular Demand at September 21, 2019 11:28 AM (mk9aG)
73
Will say the Feds took care of a late entry parking fee by me, parking in downtown center city Philadelphia isn't cheap for a truck.
Posted by: Skip at September 21, 2019 11:28 AM (ZCEU2)
74
Posted by: Muldoon at September 21, 2019 11:22 AM (m45I2)
Similar to the jury pool I was in last fall. The whole thing was just bizarre. Then, this past summer, the judge that heard the case was arrested for dui with his boyfriend in the car. He begged cops not to put him in jail. "they'll kill me." Got a little slap on the wrist and still sits on the bench.
Similar to the jury pool I was in last fall. The whole thing was just bizarre. Then, this past summer, the judge that heard the case was arrested for dui with his boyfriend in the car. He begged cops not to put him in jail. "they'll kill me." Got a little slap on the wrist and still sits on the bench.
Posted by: Infidel at September 21, 2019 11:29 AM (BLFnH)
75
Morning all. Sitting at the vehicle inspection station.
Posted by: rickb223 at September 21, 2019 11:29 AM (VY2sw)
76
Infidel, how were you not disqualified from the jury, then?
Posted by: Huck Follywood, a
I was in the gallery during voir dire, was not picked for the jury. The document signing came after, during a trial break.
Posted by: Huck Follywood, a
I was in the gallery during voir dire, was not picked for the jury. The document signing came after, during a trial break.
Posted by: Infidel at September 21, 2019 11:31 AM (BLFnH)
77
At 56 (aka 29), I've only been summoned once. Parking was a drag. I was questioned during voir dire on a trial involving a guy accused of molesting a kid. Me, young mom at the time, didn't get chosen. I can't imagine why!
Posted by: Lady in Black - Death to the Man Bun at September 21, 2019 11:32 AM (JoUsr)
78
Posted by: gp, Decaffeinated By Popular Demand at September 21, 2019 11:28 AM (mk9aG)
WTF. That guy was guilty as hell.
WTF. That guy was guilty as hell.
Posted by: Pig to man dreaming of lions at September 21, 2019 11:33 AM (2DOZq)
79
65 I served on a jury where the challenges exhausted the jury pool in the courtroom...the judge sent the bailiffs out @lunch break to shang-hai potential jurors off the streets.
Posted by: BignJames at September 21, 2019 11:22 AM (X/Pw5)
That's a good reason to brown-bag it. "Hello, boss? I'm not coming back from lunch break. I just found out I'm on a jury."
Posted by: BignJames at September 21, 2019 11:22 AM (X/Pw5)
That's a good reason to brown-bag it. "Hello, boss? I'm not coming back from lunch break. I just found out I'm on a jury."
Posted by: rickl at September 21, 2019 11:34 AM (sdi6R)
80
"Who came up with this system, anyway?"
Norse. Saxons. Common practice among northern Europeans.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_trial_by_jury_in_England
Greeks. Pfeh. They didn't have juries. They had mobs.
Norse. Saxons. Common practice among northern Europeans.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_trial_by_jury_in_England
Greeks. Pfeh. They didn't have juries. They had mobs.
Posted by: Apostate at September 21, 2019 11:34 AM (hZ4Kc)
81
My recent jury service
How does my experience compare to yours?
How? I'd swear you were in Denton County, Texas except for the parking issue. Internal sounds exactly like it.
I wonder if they all go to a people handling school?
How does my experience compare to yours?
How? I'd swear you were in Denton County, Texas except for the parking issue. Internal sounds exactly like it.
I wonder if they all go to a people handling school?
Posted by: rickb223 at September 21, 2019 11:35 AM (VY2sw)
82
I've only been called up twice, and both times I was in the pool. However, it seemed like I was a subpoena magnet at an early age. Had one served at age 16, working part time for the newspaper. I was putting out those boxes paper carriers get there stuff in, a guy was broke down, and another guy pulls up and cold cocks him. Didn't know either from Adam, and I get a subpoena, tell em what I saw, and go about my 16 year old business. Later in the week, I'm with my bud at his girlfriends house, she BFF with my girlfriend, and in walks Dad, the guy I testified against. In my early thirties, I had an FFL, and sold a 410 to a guy with marital problems he finalized.
Posted by: bill in arkansas at September 21, 2019 11:35 AM (C1Lsn)
83
Voir dire'd out, every time. Starting to think lawyers don't want engineers on a jury.
Posted by: These fish sticks are hard as tits at September 21, 2019 11:35 AM (1L9V9)
84
Similar to the jury pool I was in last fall. The whole thing was just bizarre. Then, this past summer, the judge that heard the case was arrested for dui with his boyfriend in the car. He begged cops not to put him in jail. "they'll kill me." Got a little slap on the wrist and still sits on the bench.
Posted by: Infidel
******
Hell Infidel, it was probably the same case. Last fall would be the right timing. If so, that's quite a coincidence. Judge's first name Lance?
Posted by: Infidel
******
Hell Infidel, it was probably the same case. Last fall would be the right timing. If so, that's quite a coincidence. Judge's first name Lance?
Posted by: Muldoon at September 21, 2019 11:36 AM (m45I2)
85
One of the first a question is always, "are any of you lawyers?" I raise my hand an am immediately dismissed.
Posted by: Farmer Bob at September 21, 2019 11:37 AM (wUzFb)
86
My experience from 18 years of commercial litigation:
Juries are insane, and only a complete fool will ever try a case to a jury. Always choose a bench (judge only) trial.
The absolutely worst case I ever tried, which I begged my client to settle before trial, I tried before a jury, and of course I won when I should have been laughed out of court.
The absolutely best case I ever tried, which I would still try today and ten times on Sunday because the evidence was so overwhelming, I tried before a jury and lost so badly that my client sued me over it.
I always talked to the juries after the case was over to see what their decision points were. Almost uniformly they hung their decision on the least important evidence, or even a "fact" that was never even presented to them, or a completely ridiculous misunderstanding of the law.
Juries are from Hell. Avoid being on either side of one at all costs.
Juries are insane, and only a complete fool will ever try a case to a jury. Always choose a bench (judge only) trial.
The absolutely worst case I ever tried, which I begged my client to settle before trial, I tried before a jury, and of course I won when I should have been laughed out of court.
The absolutely best case I ever tried, which I would still try today and ten times on Sunday because the evidence was so overwhelming, I tried before a jury and lost so badly that my client sued me over it.
I always talked to the juries after the case was over to see what their decision points were. Almost uniformly they hung their decision on the least important evidence, or even a "fact" that was never even presented to them, or a completely ridiculous misunderstanding of the law.
Juries are from Hell. Avoid being on either side of one at all costs.
Posted by: Sharkman at September 21, 2019 11:37 AM (xgyDD)
87
Been on juries three times each time it settled shortly after we got seated. Oddly enough all three where accidental death cases two civil one criminal.
Posted by: Nearsighted Cyclops at September 21, 2019 11:38 AM (B06Zw)
88
Why, yes Muldoon, it was.
Posted by: Infidel at September 21, 2019 11:39 AM (BLFnH)
89
and the worst was the vicious dog who objected to a 3am knockdown raid (black lab crated at the time).
*types deletes*
*types deletes*
Posted by: rickb223 at September 21, 2019 11:39 AM (VY2sw)
90
Been summoned a few times but never made it to a courtroom.
I guess when you fill out the questionaire and answer the "Have you ever been the victim of a crime?" and start it with that time in elementary school Billy Harkins stole your bicycle and have twenty more events from there to last year it kind of flags you.
And then they make you sit there all day until releasing you at close of business.
I guess when you fill out the questionaire and answer the "Have you ever been the victim of a crime?" and start it with that time in elementary school Billy Harkins stole your bicycle and have twenty more events from there to last year it kind of flags you.
And then they make you sit there all day until releasing you at close of business.
Posted by: Burnt Toast at September 21, 2019 11:40 AM (1g7ch)
91
Posted by: Sharkman at September 21, 2019 11:37 AM (xgyDD
As an insurance company court monitor / negotiator ( bag man) I agree with everything you've said.
As an insurance company court monitor / negotiator ( bag man) I agree with everything you've said.
Posted by: Pig to man dreaming of lions at September 21, 2019 11:41 AM (2DOZq)
92
Did jury service in the UK years ago. Ghastly experience; utter incompetence all round and two trials, the first of which I'd happily have sown both the accuser and plaintiff (who was coiunter-accusing) in a sack and thrown it in the sea. With lead weights attached. The second was somehow worse; three whole days of a trial of making illicit 'cowgirl' videos (they were NOT girls!) only after which the bastard accused settled. I'd have jailed him for making me never able to watch a Western agaiun without wincing!
Posted by: Steve T. at September 21, 2019 11:43 AM (3g/8c)
93
My former employer made it incumbent on individual employees to lie their way out of jury duty.
Most of the parking tickets were written for expired meters at the courthouse/gov't center.
Most of the parking tickets were written for expired meters at the courthouse/gov't center.
Posted by: klaftern at September 21, 2019 11:43 AM (RuIsu)
94
"WTF. That guy was guilty as hell." As I said, I would have nullified. By the letter of the law he was guilty, but justice demanded acquittal.
Posted by: gp, Decaffeinated By Popular Demand at September 21, 2019 11:44 AM (mk9aG)
95
Why, yes Muldoon, it was.
Posted by: Infidel
*******
I always wondered what the outcome of that child sex abuse case was. Never did hear. I think it was a change of venue thing out of Delta or Montrose county. Weird how it just disappeared as if it never happened.
Posted by: Infidel
*******
I always wondered what the outcome of that child sex abuse case was. Never did hear. I think it was a change of venue thing out of Delta or Montrose county. Weird how it just disappeared as if it never happened.
Posted by: Muldoon at September 21, 2019 11:44 AM (m45I2)
96
Weird how it just disappeared as if it never happened.
Posted by: Muldoon at September 21, 2019 11:44 AM (m45I2)
Name wasn't Epstein, was it?
Posted by: Muldoon at September 21, 2019 11:44 AM (m45I2)
Name wasn't Epstein, was it?
Posted by: BignJames at September 21, 2019 11:46 AM (X/Pw5)
97
86
Juries are from Hell. Avoid being on either side of one at all costs.
Posted by: Sharkman at September 21, 2019 11:37 AM (xgyDD)
I've never tried to get out of jury duty, because I figure that if I'm ever on the wrong end of a trial, I'd want sane and intelligent jurors.
Juries are from Hell. Avoid being on either side of one at all costs.
Posted by: Sharkman at September 21, 2019 11:37 AM (xgyDD)
I've never tried to get out of jury duty, because I figure that if I'm ever on the wrong end of a trial, I'd want sane and intelligent jurors.
Posted by: rickl at September 21, 2019 11:47 AM (sdi6R)
98
I think jury duty in my county pays something like $9 per day
after 3 days you get a raise - $25 per day
after 3 days you get a raise - $25 per day
Posted by: vmom happy to have read a good book! at September 21, 2019 11:47 AM (+72t1)
99
No change of venue. He was found guilty. Sure was kept out of the media tho.
Posted by: Infidel at September 21, 2019 11:48 AM (BLFnH)
100
*types deletes*
=====
Prosecutor himself opened the door to that information by an over-the-top theatrical opening statement about how dogs impede the course of justice and the jurors all (even the youngsters) went huh?. I think most of the info was suppressed regarding the raid and the crazypants cops but the prosecutor brought it up. I was surprised that there was a previous hung jury in that case in a totally pro-prosecution and supercop supporting area.
*types deletes*
=====
Prosecutor himself opened the door to that information by an over-the-top theatrical opening statement about how dogs impede the course of justice and the jurors all (even the youngsters) went huh?. I think most of the info was suppressed regarding the raid and the crazypants cops but the prosecutor brought it up. I was surprised that there was a previous hung jury in that case in a totally pro-prosecution and supercop supporting area.
Posted by: mustbequantum at September 21, 2019 11:48 AM (MIKMs)
101
"Juries are from Hell. Avoid being on either side of one at all costs."
This. Do everything you can to stay away from the criminal "justice" "system." Situational awareness is your friend, and will keep you away from much of the crap that might get you "justice-involved."
This. Do everything you can to stay away from the criminal "justice" "system." Situational awareness is your friend, and will keep you away from much of the crap that might get you "justice-involved."
Posted by: gp, Decaffeinated By Popular Demand at September 21, 2019 11:50 AM (mk9aG)
102
I was cop in Ca. in the 70's. I testified many, many times. I found the atorneys working for both sides, on the taxpayer dime, to be pretty dolt-ish, most of the time. There was an occasional really sharp prosecutor, but you can imagine how often they stayed in public jobs. Because my city refused to settle nuisance suits, I testified in many civil proceedings as well. Again, I found occasional high quality attorneys, but for the most part, these were really not very competent people. Since where judges come from, you can imagine my view of most of the judges I appeared before. In my view, the system is broken, and sucks in terms of bringing justice for victims, and protecting society. I have zero faith in it, and watching the haphazard application of "law" in DC, I think I'm justified. It's all kabuki theater to make us think the system works. It doesn't. At 66 , and retired, I still get summoned, but haven't never been allowed to sit on a jury, and it's just as well. IMO, no one gets to trial who isn't dead bang guilty. and I will always vote that view..
Posted by: macleod at September 21, 2019 11:50 AM (gaJIW)
103
Posted by: mnw at September 21, 2019 11:25 AM (Cssks)
=======
Interesting, mnw, but how do you account for what appears to be routine, institutionalized injustice at the highest levels of the DOJ nowadays?
Posted by: mnw at September 21, 2019 11:25 AM (Cssks)
=======
Interesting, mnw, but how do you account for what appears to be routine, institutionalized injustice at the highest levels of the DOJ nowadays?
Posted by: Blonde Morticia at September 21, 2019 11:50 AM (13CQC)
104
I don't know why but I've been called 3 times Selected all 3 times Twice County (civil cases) Once Federal (criminal)
Federal case took 3 months....Most of the time only went 3 days a week and sometime for half a day at that due to the judges schedule ...
Last time I was the alternate on a malpractice case and the case was settled after 5 days of testimony..Alternate was horrible because you aren't allowed in the jury room so every recess you a put in a separate room.. Thank god for my Kindle app on the Ipad
Federal case took 3 months....Most of the time only went 3 days a week and sometime for half a day at that due to the judges schedule ...
Last time I was the alternate on a malpractice case and the case was settled after 5 days of testimony..Alternate was horrible because you aren't allowed in the jury room so every recess you a put in a separate room.. Thank god for my Kindle app on the Ipad
Posted by: Ken at September 21, 2019 11:51 AM (G6QBb)
105
"But the Ted Stevens prosecutors AND the pervert were... atypical."
Indeed. But no one will listen to you. Bitching about lawyers, judges, and legal specifics are part of conservative DNA. Even the fucking lawyers; see Glenn Reynold's idiotic crusade against qualified immunity.
'It has no basis in the Constitution, therefore it's illegitimate.'
Like, 90% of judicial doctrines have no basis in the Constitution and are derived logically. For instance, nothing in the Constitution prevents a party from arguing FOR point A in trial proceedings, and AGAINST point A in appeals; but judicial estoppel is a good and reasonable thing.
Likewise, qualified immunity. A government official acting in good faith execution of their duties SHOULD benefit from the shield of sovereign immunity. A soldier in combat who mistakenly shoots a noncombatant in ambiguous circumstances shouldn't be liable for murder. Obviously. Likewise, a police officer who shoots a suspect holding a black or otherwise realistic looking toy gun in ambiguous circumstances shouldn't be liable for murder. The execution of their official duties involves dealing with violent people, violently. Honest mistakes should not destroy them; and destroying them for honest mistakes would paralyze warfighting/law enforcement/etc out of terror of pulling the actual or proverbial trigger at the right time.
But all most people care about is stupid, simplistic formulations that amount to 'GOVMENT AGENT GETS AWAY WITH MURDER' and 'NOT IN THE CONSTITUTION.'
Likewise with the intelligence community. I worked in intelligence for six years, before I became a lawyer. Civil protections of US persons were vigorously enforced, and nearly all people I ever met in that career were honest patriots (there were a couple of crackpots and people of dubious loyalty; I personally reported one to counterintelligence for disloyal statements and he was eventually fired). But hatred and distrust of them is endemic among conservatives, based on similar simplistic and stupid interpretations of the field.
A unity of these dumb criticisms is re: the FISA court. The FISA court was established *specifically* to protect American civil liberties while still allowing necessary counterintelligence activities to proceed. Would you prefer that foreign agents of influence and actual illegal spies have the full suite of Constitutional protections afforded citizens? Because that's what it was like before FISA. US counterintelligence efforts before then skirted the law and were deeply secret to avoid that kind of legal challenge, but got shutdown in the CIA-hating spree of the 1970s. Ergo, FISA was established in 1978.
But all the typical US conservative sees is 'FISA was used to try to bring down the Trump campaign,' therefore it's BAD.
End rant.
Indeed. But no one will listen to you. Bitching about lawyers, judges, and legal specifics are part of conservative DNA. Even the fucking lawyers; see Glenn Reynold's idiotic crusade against qualified immunity.
'It has no basis in the Constitution, therefore it's illegitimate.'
Like, 90% of judicial doctrines have no basis in the Constitution and are derived logically. For instance, nothing in the Constitution prevents a party from arguing FOR point A in trial proceedings, and AGAINST point A in appeals; but judicial estoppel is a good and reasonable thing.
Likewise, qualified immunity. A government official acting in good faith execution of their duties SHOULD benefit from the shield of sovereign immunity. A soldier in combat who mistakenly shoots a noncombatant in ambiguous circumstances shouldn't be liable for murder. Obviously. Likewise, a police officer who shoots a suspect holding a black or otherwise realistic looking toy gun in ambiguous circumstances shouldn't be liable for murder. The execution of their official duties involves dealing with violent people, violently. Honest mistakes should not destroy them; and destroying them for honest mistakes would paralyze warfighting/law enforcement/etc out of terror of pulling the actual or proverbial trigger at the right time.
But all most people care about is stupid, simplistic formulations that amount to 'GOVMENT AGENT GETS AWAY WITH MURDER' and 'NOT IN THE CONSTITUTION.'
Likewise with the intelligence community. I worked in intelligence for six years, before I became a lawyer. Civil protections of US persons were vigorously enforced, and nearly all people I ever met in that career were honest patriots (there were a couple of crackpots and people of dubious loyalty; I personally reported one to counterintelligence for disloyal statements and he was eventually fired). But hatred and distrust of them is endemic among conservatives, based on similar simplistic and stupid interpretations of the field.
A unity of these dumb criticisms is re: the FISA court. The FISA court was established *specifically* to protect American civil liberties while still allowing necessary counterintelligence activities to proceed. Would you prefer that foreign agents of influence and actual illegal spies have the full suite of Constitutional protections afforded citizens? Because that's what it was like before FISA. US counterintelligence efforts before then skirted the law and were deeply secret to avoid that kind of legal challenge, but got shutdown in the CIA-hating spree of the 1970s. Ergo, FISA was established in 1978.
But all the typical US conservative sees is 'FISA was used to try to bring down the Trump campaign,' therefore it's BAD.
End rant.
Posted by: Apostate at September 21, 2019 11:51 AM (hZ4Kc)
106
For the first time ever in my 56+ years, I've been summoned for jury duty. I don't have any legitimate reason to get out of it, so on October 1 I'll do my civic duty. It's a small town, and I owned a restaurant here for years, so it's highly likely that I'll know whoever is involved with the case, including the attorneys, so perhaps I'll be dismissed.
Posted by: windbag at September 21, 2019 11:52 AM (INE0M)
107
"I've never tried to get out of jury duty, because I figure that if I'm ever on the wrong end of a trial, I'd want sane and intelligent jurors."
I don't try to avoid it because: it's a duty. It's a very small price to pay to try to achieve some semblance of justice in a crazy unjust world.
I don't try to avoid it because: it's a duty. It's a very small price to pay to try to achieve some semblance of justice in a crazy unjust world.
Posted by: gp, Decaffeinated By Popular Demand at September 21, 2019 11:52 AM (mk9aG)
108
Juries are from Hell. Avoid being on either side of one at all costs.
Posted by: Sharkman
=======
What about judges? Just curious.
Also, something I don't know: if you (the defendant) go for a trial by jury and you find during voir dire that they're a bunch of idiots, can you change your mind and go for a bench trial?
Juries are from Hell. Avoid being on either side of one at all costs.
Posted by: Sharkman
=======
What about judges? Just curious.
Also, something I don't know: if you (the defendant) go for a trial by jury and you find during voir dire that they're a bunch of idiots, can you change your mind and go for a bench trial?
Posted by: Blonde Morticia at September 21, 2019 11:53 AM (13CQC)
109
The one good thing about the jury room here, since you are locked up there and can't leave, is that it has a fresh air smoking room right off the hall to the bathrooms.
Posted by: Infidel at September 21, 2019 11:53 AM (BLFnH)
110
No change of venue. He was found guilty. Sure was kept out of the media tho.
Posted by: Infidel at September 21, 2019 11:48 AM (BLFnH)
Got to be prominent democrats involved.
Posted by: Infidel at September 21, 2019 11:48 AM (BLFnH)
Got to be prominent democrats involved.
Posted by: Alberta Oil Peon at September 21, 2019 11:53 AM (jEgzt)
111
Aha!! I found it.
The sex abuser was convicted and sentenced to 168 years in prison. The mother of the girls had a video of him having sexual intercourse with one of them. During sentencing the dirtbag claimed his rights had been violated and that the video shouldn't have been shown because the little girl was too young to consent to having a video taken. Hope he rots in jail or better yet meets his Maker via jailhouse justice.
The sex abuser was convicted and sentenced to 168 years in prison. The mother of the girls had a video of him having sexual intercourse with one of them. During sentencing the dirtbag claimed his rights had been violated and that the video shouldn't have been shown because the little girl was too young to consent to having a video taken. Hope he rots in jail or better yet meets his Maker via jailhouse justice.
Posted by: Muldoon at September 21, 2019 11:55 AM (m45I2)
112
"... there are the psychological manipulations which are common in the
courtroom now - changing the focus to the defendant's childhood and
such."
and for Kate Steinle, the "illegal alien exemption" applied. Victim status is (PC) culturally established outside the courtroom, and extends into other social dynamics. A difficult childhood at least might possibly apply directly to a given person, as opposed to the bigotry of identity politics, where whole classes are punished/rewarded based on race/religion/etc.
Even for the truly troubled child still struggling as an adult, allowing them to escape responsibility only encourages more escape from reality, and the "poor me" syndrome is encouraged. This applies to the "diversity hire" double standard problem. And Holder's absurd "disparate impact laws" codify the double standard against whites.
The family/childhood dynamic really is a big factor, but not an excuse. But our schools are now part of the childhood (and/or broken home) abuse, teaching "victimhood privilege" instead of foundational civics. By the time the criminal is facing trial, the route to turning them around is difficult, and our prisons are better setup to teach them to be better criminals, not better citizens (from my limited view).
I watched "Baby Driver" the other day ... he had good parents, lost in a tragedy. But the good parenting carried him through his bad times, and in the end he got the girl. Hurray for a favorable outcome that considered childhood?
courtroom now - changing the focus to the defendant's childhood and
such."
and for Kate Steinle, the "illegal alien exemption" applied. Victim status is (PC) culturally established outside the courtroom, and extends into other social dynamics. A difficult childhood at least might possibly apply directly to a given person, as opposed to the bigotry of identity politics, where whole classes are punished/rewarded based on race/religion/etc.
Even for the truly troubled child still struggling as an adult, allowing them to escape responsibility only encourages more escape from reality, and the "poor me" syndrome is encouraged. This applies to the "diversity hire" double standard problem. And Holder's absurd "disparate impact laws" codify the double standard against whites.
The family/childhood dynamic really is a big factor, but not an excuse. But our schools are now part of the childhood (and/or broken home) abuse, teaching "victimhood privilege" instead of foundational civics. By the time the criminal is facing trial, the route to turning them around is difficult, and our prisons are better setup to teach them to be better criminals, not better citizens (from my limited view).
I watched "Baby Driver" the other day ... he had good parents, lost in a tragedy. But the good parenting carried him through his bad times, and in the end he got the girl. Hurray for a favorable outcome that considered childhood?
Posted by: illiniwek at September 21, 2019 11:55 AM (Cus5s)
113
I've got Jury duty again next month.
7th time in the last 9 years (1 was Fed, rest State).
Random my lilly white ass.
I have noted, that even though my County is 68% Hispanic, the Jury pool of almost 500 people was 90% White or Black, very few Hispanics.
7th time in the last 9 years (1 was Fed, rest State).
Random my lilly white ass.
I have noted, that even though my County is 68% Hispanic, the Jury pool of almost 500 people was 90% White or Black, very few Hispanics.
Posted by: Don Q at September 21, 2019 11:56 AM (NgKpN)
114
But the Ted Stevens prosecutors AND the pervert were... atypical.
Posted by: mnw
License to Lie by Sydney Powell, Gen. Mike Flynn's new lawyer, is about the misconduct in the Stevens case, as well as the misconduct in the Arthur Anderson and Merril Lynch cases.
The prosecutors were not only NOT fired, but ended up being in charge of the Mueller investigation (Andrew Weismann) and Chief White House Cousel under Obama (Kathryn Ruemmler).
I was listening to Ms. Powell just yesterday on this subject:
https://youtu.be/1hUNITkseos
It is terrifying what she experienced and which caused her to write her book, and she is dealing with the same shit in the Flynn case, but fortunately she has Judge Emmett Sullivan on that case.
Posted by: mnw
License to Lie by Sydney Powell, Gen. Mike Flynn's new lawyer, is about the misconduct in the Stevens case, as well as the misconduct in the Arthur Anderson and Merril Lynch cases.
The prosecutors were not only NOT fired, but ended up being in charge of the Mueller investigation (Andrew Weismann) and Chief White House Cousel under Obama (Kathryn Ruemmler).
I was listening to Ms. Powell just yesterday on this subject:
https://youtu.be/1hUNITkseos
It is terrifying what she experienced and which caused her to write her book, and she is dealing with the same shit in the Flynn case, but fortunately she has Judge Emmett Sullivan on that case.
Posted by: Sharkman at September 21, 2019 11:57 AM (xgyDD)
115
"I watched "Baby Driver" the other day ... " Hate the song, hate the movie.
Posted by: gp, Decaffeinated By Popular Demand at September 21, 2019 12:00 PM (mk9aG)
116
113 might prove Hispanics are not voting or just not long enough
Posted by: Skip at September 21, 2019 12:00 PM (ZCEU2)
117
Guy steals a truck in Houston. He's going down I-10 towards San Antonio with a buddy and a toddler, smoking crack, drinking whiskey, shooting at other car and/or running them off the road.
I had 2 women on my jury that couldn't grasp 'reasonable doubt'. Eyewitness testimony was not to be believed- only official documents. After 8 hours of deliberations and some Jedi mind tricks, I got them to agree on the DWI charge only.
Later, the Judge tells us he's an illegal alien and just got out of jail for the same shit. I guess Harris County didn't call the Feds; hopefully, Guadalupe did.
I had 2 women on my jury that couldn't grasp 'reasonable doubt'. Eyewitness testimony was not to be believed- only official documents. After 8 hours of deliberations and some Jedi mind tricks, I got them to agree on the DWI charge only.
Later, the Judge tells us he's an illegal alien and just got out of jail for the same shit. I guess Harris County didn't call the Feds; hopefully, Guadalupe did.
Posted by: Beefy Meatball at September 21, 2019 12:01 PM (n4Ozf)
118
I was called for Grand Jury once. A court room full of prospective jurors. Many were dismissed because of hardship (its 3 or 4 weeks on the GJ) I noticed many blacks were dismissed leaving generally whites to be selected.
I was selected and taken to the GJ rooms, which were comfortable. 24 of us were one GJ one and another 24 on GJ two, etc.
We then all assembled in the court room for a inspirational talk by a judge of how important we were, then back to our rooms, which had a small snack are, coffee makers,etc.
We started the next am hearing cases, and we felt sorry for the defendants. By the end of the first week we were ready to hang everyone!
After it was all over in 3 weeks, we all knew each other and actually had a get together at a local party house. We didn't discuss any of the cases between our selves, following the rules. I still remember some of the very sad cases we heard, and wonder what ever happened to the defendants.
I was selected and taken to the GJ rooms, which were comfortable. 24 of us were one GJ one and another 24 on GJ two, etc.
We then all assembled in the court room for a inspirational talk by a judge of how important we were, then back to our rooms, which had a small snack are, coffee makers,etc.
We started the next am hearing cases, and we felt sorry for the defendants. By the end of the first week we were ready to hang everyone!
After it was all over in 3 weeks, we all knew each other and actually had a get together at a local party house. We didn't discuss any of the cases between our selves, following the rules. I still remember some of the very sad cases we heard, and wonder what ever happened to the defendants.
Posted by: Colin at September 21, 2019 12:03 PM (FE1ds)
119
Good Lord, Muldoon. I had no idea it was that horrific. He was a slight little guy and unless he's in solitary, I don't expect he will last long. May he rot in hell.
Posted by: Infidel at September 21, 2019 12:03 PM (BLFnH)
120
I've been in the pool but never called, I'd never make past the selection phase on any jury, I'd just tell them I plan on voting my conscious and plan on telling the other jurors they should as well.
Posted by: Shoey at September 21, 2019 12:04 PM (lg4FP)
121
I think I was called up for jury duty in like 1992, but had to beg off - I was in the Navy and out of the country.
I haven't been called since, yet.
My dad was called up once, but was dismissed because the defendant was a buddy of his.
I haven't been called since, yet.
My dad was called up once, but was dismissed because the defendant was a buddy of his.
Posted by: Jeff Weimer at September 21, 2019 12:04 PM (ijEPD)
122
Aha - a hook for touting a couple of related old webworks
From Bill of Rights series
VI. Impartial justice
mindfulwebworks.com/doodles/impartial-justice
VII. Jury rigging
mindfulwebworks.com/doodles/jury-rigging
______
Jury I served on in Chicago suburb ages ago, 11 out of 12 jurors really tried our best to judge as we would like to be judged. The 12th was, whatever, let's vote guilty & go home. Figure 11 out of 12 serious citizens was pretty good.
From Bill of Rights series
VI. Impartial justice
mindfulwebworks.com/doodles/impartial-justice
VII. Jury rigging
mindfulwebworks.com/doodles/jury-rigging
______
Jury I served on in Chicago suburb ages ago, 11 out of 12 jurors really tried our best to judge as we would like to be judged. The 12th was, whatever, let's vote guilty & go home. Figure 11 out of 12 serious citizens was pretty good.
Posted by: mindful webworker - nullificationary at September 21, 2019 12:05 PM (MZVOx)
Posted by: Muldoon at September 21, 2019 12:06 PM (m45I2)
124
It's a beautiful summer day here, went for short bile ride.
Posted by: Skip at September 21, 2019 12:07 PM (ZCEU2)
125
Some women was worried that the teacher would get fired.
Posted by: agesilaus
=======
That's why mnw is right about juries. I worked for a big academic testing firm once, reading high school kids' essays. Some were unreadably bad, produced by obviously illiterate teens. Women in the group would say "Aw, if I give it a zero, the kid won't graduate. I don't want to ruin anyone's life!"
Idiots don't know: they have ONE JOB. Other people take over after you deliver your finding.
Some women was worried that the teacher would get fired.
Posted by: agesilaus
=======
That's why mnw is right about juries. I worked for a big academic testing firm once, reading high school kids' essays. Some were unreadably bad, produced by obviously illiterate teens. Women in the group would say "Aw, if I give it a zero, the kid won't graduate. I don't want to ruin anyone's life!"
Idiots don't know: they have ONE JOB. Other people take over after you deliver your finding.
Posted by: Blonde Morticia at September 21, 2019 12:07 PM (13CQC)
126
i was summoned to jury duty once. the members of the jury pool all stood, along with the defense and prosecutors, when the judge entered. the judge sat down, said "good morning" to the perspective jurors and told the prosecutors and defense, including the accused, to greet and welcome the jurors, as well.
it was exceedingly polite and good natured and a very pleasant respite from the seriousness of the morning. i don't know if they all do that or if ir was just hat judge, but memory always brings a smile.
i wasn't picked and went to work.
it was exceedingly polite and good natured and a very pleasant respite from the seriousness of the morning. i don't know if they all do that or if ir was just hat judge, but memory always brings a smile.
i wasn't picked and went to work.
Posted by: musical jolly chimp at September 21, 2019 12:07 PM (Pg+x7)
127
What is the story behind the song Tom Dooley?
"Tom Dooley" is a North Carolina folk song based on the 1866 murder of a woman named Laura Foster in Wilkes County, North Carolina, allegedly by Tom Dula. The song is best known today because of a hit version recorded in 1958 by The Kingston Trio.
"Tom Dooley" is a North Carolina folk song based on the 1866 murder of a woman named Laura Foster in Wilkes County, North Carolina, allegedly by Tom Dula. The song is best known today because of a hit version recorded in 1958 by The Kingston Trio.
Posted by: Malaking Buto at September 21, 2019 12:07 PM (WnvuL)
128
then they'd ask about the Law and I'd say, well there's the Law and then there's right and wrong, the two aren't always the same.
Posted by: Shoey at September 21, 2019 12:08 PM (lg4FP)
129
I have voted every election since 1984 and NEVER even called for jury duty! What am I? Chopped liver?
I just want to send someone to prison
I just want to send someone to prison
Posted by: HobbieHawk at September 21, 2019 12:09 PM (xikn8)
130
my experience with jury duty summons is that if you are randomly assigned to be near the start of the line you wikl be picked
Posted by: vmom happy to have read a good book! at September 21, 2019 12:10 PM (+72t1)
131
Muldoon, that is not the jury pool I was in. I think it was Oct. and was a white guy. Also hidden by the media.
Posted by: Infidel at September 21, 2019 12:10 PM (BLFnH)
132
"But all the typical US conservative sees is 'FISA was used to try to bring down the Trump campaign,' therefore it's BAD." apostate
interesting rant, thanks.
But FISA was abused, and long after the judges found out they were lied to, nothing has happened, and the political objective (coup) continues. FISA had (allegedly) become a rubber stamp, all sorts of abuses ... DeepState rules ... hence the broader opinion that FISA is bad because those judges failed to reign in abuse.
We certainly need the covert operations, but we need genuine oversight so it does not become the DeepState mob we seem to have today. (and what do we really understand about the highest ranking CIA/commie/DNC/Fusion/etc. connections that happen at the compartmentalized top, even if the lower ranks are mostly patriots?)
interesting rant, thanks.
But FISA was abused, and long after the judges found out they were lied to, nothing has happened, and the political objective (coup) continues. FISA had (allegedly) become a rubber stamp, all sorts of abuses ... DeepState rules ... hence the broader opinion that FISA is bad because those judges failed to reign in abuse.
We certainly need the covert operations, but we need genuine oversight so it does not become the DeepState mob we seem to have today. (and what do we really understand about the highest ranking CIA/commie/DNC/Fusion/etc. connections that happen at the compartmentalized top, even if the lower ranks are mostly patriots?)
Posted by: illiniwek at September 21, 2019 12:10 PM (Cus5s)
133
A lot of sick fucks in this world.
Posted by: Infidel at September 21, 2019 12:12 PM (BLFnH)
134
I used to practice before an older judge in the Ozarks who would send the sheriff out to collect juror no-shows. They'd sit in the court lock-up until the end of the day, when the judge would examine them and give them a night in jail for contempt if they didn't have a damn good reason.
Posted by: RS at September 21, 2019 12:13 PM (CNQqJ)
135
What about judges? Just curious.
Also, something I don't know: if you (the defendant) go for a trial by jury and you find during voir dire that they're a bunch of idiots, can you change your mind and go for a bench trial?
Posted by: Blonde Morticia
Judges are only marginally better than juries, because they are human and therefore callable. But at least they generally know bullshit when they hear it and know how the elements of a claim must be proven and what evidence that takes.
I was a very atypical attorney (retired now) and I could have made a shitload more money than I did if I just took every case I vould and pushed to trial on every one like most attorneys do. Instead, I figured out during Mock Trial class in law school that juries are nuts and that trials are pretty much a cheap shoot to be avoided if possible.
First meeting with a client I would describe for them the Parade of Horribles awaiting them in the litigation process, how money I would drain from their accounts and how even if they had the best case the jury would almost certainly botch their case or the judge would fuck them if they were in a bad mood at trial.
And then I would ask the client if there was any way for them to settle their case to avoid what is almost always a nightmare. Almost everyone would choose rationality and settlement over scorched earth war and would work to solve their problem rather than litigate. Fortunately for them and their bank accounts and nerves.
I was commercial litigation only not criminal defense but I assume a defendant has a right to withdraw his request for a jury at any time prior to verdict but I maybbe wrong about that.
Also, something I don't know: if you (the defendant) go for a trial by jury and you find during voir dire that they're a bunch of idiots, can you change your mind and go for a bench trial?
Posted by: Blonde Morticia
Judges are only marginally better than juries, because they are human and therefore callable. But at least they generally know bullshit when they hear it and know how the elements of a claim must be proven and what evidence that takes.
I was a very atypical attorney (retired now) and I could have made a shitload more money than I did if I just took every case I vould and pushed to trial on every one like most attorneys do. Instead, I figured out during Mock Trial class in law school that juries are nuts and that trials are pretty much a cheap shoot to be avoided if possible.
First meeting with a client I would describe for them the Parade of Horribles awaiting them in the litigation process, how money I would drain from their accounts and how even if they had the best case the jury would almost certainly botch their case or the judge would fuck them if they were in a bad mood at trial.
And then I would ask the client if there was any way for them to settle their case to avoid what is almost always a nightmare. Almost everyone would choose rationality and settlement over scorched earth war and would work to solve their problem rather than litigate. Fortunately for them and their bank accounts and nerves.
I was commercial litigation only not criminal defense but I assume a defendant has a right to withdraw his request for a jury at any time prior to verdict but I maybbe wrong about that.
Posted by: Sharkman at September 21, 2019 12:13 PM (xgyDD)
136
I've written here before on my experience as a federal jury summonee, and in general it just sucks. Bigly. No electronic devices, no freakin' books! even, no place or way to have a smoke, an extensive search upon entry to the building...
They treat citizen jurors like the criminals. And of course, it is compulsory with the threat of imprisonment if you don't show up. And they, on purpose, make phone calls to the late/absent jurors while in the jury waiting room, so we can all hear the threats they make.
It did not at all improve my opinion of the US government.
They treat citizen jurors like the criminals. And of course, it is compulsory with the threat of imprisonment if you don't show up. And they, on purpose, make phone calls to the late/absent jurors while in the jury waiting room, so we can all hear the threats they make.
It did not at all improve my opinion of the US government.
Posted by: GnuBreed at September 21, 2019 12:13 PM (Z4rgH)
137
>>It's a beautiful summer day here, went for short bile ride.
Posted by: Skip
Might want to get that gallbladder checked.
Posted by: Skip
Might want to get that gallbladder checked.
Posted by: Aviator at September 21, 2019 12:15 PM (2cuLk)
138
She said that if you think you can escape by not registering to vote, think again, because we also select from the driver registration lists.
Posted by: rickl
=======
That would mean there are illegal aliens on the jury.
She said that if you think you can escape by not registering to vote, think again, because we also select from the driver registration lists.
Posted by: rickl
=======
That would mean there are illegal aliens on the jury.
Posted by: Blonde Morticia at September 21, 2019 12:15 PM (13CQC)
139
1 Muldoon, that is not the jury pool I was in. I think it was Oct. and was a white guy. Also hidden by the media.
Posted by: Infidel
*******
OK. Guess it would have been interesting to have two Horde members on the same jury.
Sad commentary on our society that there is so much sexual misuse of children. It makes my heart heavy. The essence of evil.
The guy who probably killed my father-in-law had prior convictions for having sex with a 13 year old when he was in his late 20's.
Posted by: Infidel
*******
OK. Guess it would have been interesting to have two Horde members on the same jury.
Sad commentary on our society that there is so much sexual misuse of children. It makes my heart heavy. The essence of evil.
The guy who probably killed my father-in-law had prior convictions for having sex with a 13 year old when he was in his late 20's.
Posted by: Muldoon at September 21, 2019 12:15 PM (m45I2)
140
Oh, FFS, I've got a guy who sat near me at the airport and is playing video on his phone, and, no matter that other people may not be interested, just blasting out the sound.
I'm tempted to pull up some of my hard rock and start playing.
grumble grumble grumbe idiot.
I'm tempted to pull up some of my hard rock and start playing.
grumble grumble grumbe idiot.
Posted by: blake - used road trip salesman at September 21, 2019 12:16 PM (cVvbj)
141
Afternoon all
Been called for jury duty 5 times and was selected once. When they ask if you know anyone in the court saying the Judge tends to get you dismissed.
Been called for jury duty 5 times and was selected once. When they ask if you know anyone in the court saying the Judge tends to get you dismissed.
Posted by: Ben Had at September 21, 2019 12:16 PM (TsX0v)
142
I assume a defendant has a right to withdraw his request for a jury at any time prior to verdict but I maybbe wrong about that.
Posted by: Sharkman
========
If I was a defendant and I heard a bunch of idiots in voir dire and I had the choice, I'd go for the bench. What a gamble, though.
I assume a defendant has a right to withdraw his request for a jury at any time prior to verdict but I maybbe wrong about that.
Posted by: Sharkman
========
If I was a defendant and I heard a bunch of idiots in voir dire and I had the choice, I'd go for the bench. What a gamble, though.
Posted by: Blonde Morticia at September 21, 2019 12:18 PM (13CQC)
143
Heck, these days a guilty-as-sin defendant could probably deploy a "global warming made me do it" defense and 8 out of 12 jurors would agree.
Posted by: Muldoon at September 21, 2019 12:20 PM (m45I2)
144
This past January I was selected for a jury for the first time in 45 years. Having a JD and being a retired lawyer did not get me excused. It was a felony aggravated sexual assault trial, which made me cringe. The "upside" was that the aggravated part was due to the victim's age (13) and it was apparently a one-time occurrence by the perp. (No other victims; no violence) Sadly, the victim became pregnant and aborted the child.
During voir dire, we weren't told any of the facts, only that it involved a 13 y.o. and abortion. I was very surprised at how many people were excused because they said that they could not render a fair verdict in a case involving abortion. (Only a small percentage were saying this to get out of jury duty, it seemed to me.) Almost as many were excused because of sexual assault experiences either personally or of a family member.
There's a lot to say about the trial, but it's too much to go into today. The defendant was convicted. Prosecutors asked for 50 years; the jury gave him 70. Yes, he deserved it, but it was just a tragedy from any way you looked at it. And I'm not by any means a bleeding heart.
I was highly impressed with the seriousness and intelligence of my fellow jurors, which was, frankly, a surprise. I came away with a greater appreciation of the jury system than I've ever had in my 29 years.
During voir dire, we weren't told any of the facts, only that it involved a 13 y.o. and abortion. I was very surprised at how many people were excused because they said that they could not render a fair verdict in a case involving abortion. (Only a small percentage were saying this to get out of jury duty, it seemed to me.) Almost as many were excused because of sexual assault experiences either personally or of a family member.
There's a lot to say about the trial, but it's too much to go into today. The defendant was convicted. Prosecutors asked for 50 years; the jury gave him 70. Yes, he deserved it, but it was just a tragedy from any way you looked at it. And I'm not by any means a bleeding heart.
I was highly impressed with the seriousness and intelligence of my fellow jurors, which was, frankly, a surprise. I came away with a greater appreciation of the jury system than I've ever had in my 29 years.
Posted by: Art Rondelet of Malmsey at September 21, 2019 12:20 PM (S+f+m)
145
But all the typical US conservative sees is 'FISA was used to try to bring down the Trump campaign,' therefore it's BAD.
End rant.
Posted by: Apostate at September 21, 2019 11:51 AM (hZ4Kc)
FISA courts have approved something like 99.97% of warrants sought by government officials.
They are a rubber stamp jobs program, not a court.
End rant.
Posted by: Apostate at September 21, 2019 11:51 AM (hZ4Kc)
FISA courts have approved something like 99.97% of warrants sought by government officials.
They are a rubber stamp jobs program, not a court.
Posted by: Sjg at September 21, 2019 12:21 PM (gDSJf)
146
137 Bike, Still have mine, it was a short investigation pre lunch ride, going longer in time in a hour.
Remember, type, read, post.
Remember, type, read, post.
Posted by: Skip at September 21, 2019 12:21 PM (ZCEU2)
147
I've been on only one jury, a civil case. I thought the jurors were pretty smart overall and they slapped down the few dufuses who wanted to consider peripheral things that had nothing to do with the case.
I've been on only one jury, a civil case. I thought the jurors were pretty smart overall and they slapped down the few dufuses who wanted to consider peripheral things that had nothing to do with the case.
Posted by: Blonde Morticia at September 21, 2019 12:22 PM (13CQC)
148
Crazy Uncle Joe is claiming President Trump is abusing power in the call to Ukraine, Crazy Uncle Joe didn't do anything wrong by every person's account.
Posted by: Skip at September 21, 2019 12:23 PM (ZCEU2)
149
Judge Collyer gave some pushback, but how does she take on the Oval Office, State, NSC, CIA, FBI, DNI and DOJ by herself when the criminals are the ones asking for the warrant?
Posted by: The Gipper Lives at September 21, 2019 12:23 PM (Ndje9)
150
Posted by: Art Rondelet of Malmsey at September 21, 2019 12:20 PM
*******
Interesting take. I'm glad your experience was positive. Maybe my outlook is unnecessarily bleak.
*******
Interesting take. I'm glad your experience was positive. Maybe my outlook is unnecessarily bleak.
Posted by: Muldoon at September 21, 2019 12:23 PM (m45I2)
151
Seen on Insty: a town in Massachusetts is being paralyzed by "ISLAM IS RIGHT ABOUT WOMEN" flyers. Denying it is Islamophobia, and supporting it is misogyny, so it's a lose-lose for the left. Whoever thought those up is brilliant.
Posted by: Ian S. at September 21, 2019 12:23 PM (6XLoz)
152
Two jury duties ago, a judge invited those of us remaining in the jury assembly room to view the trial in his courtroom if we desired, which I did.
I was treated to a pretty blatant bit of railroading, possibly gross defense incompetence, that resulted in the defendant getting 25 yrs for a crime that couldn't be proven without defense cooperation.
Last jury duty, I was selected for a jury in the courtroom of the same judge, with the same defense attourney. The judge asked if anyone on the jury had any reasons, etc., and I raised my hand. I told him tactfully that "a prior trial over which he had presided, and with the same attourney," had made a strong impression on me and might sway my impartiality.
After a couple more oblique questions, I was dismissed. Haven't been called since.
I was treated to a pretty blatant bit of railroading, possibly gross defense incompetence, that resulted in the defendant getting 25 yrs for a crime that couldn't be proven without defense cooperation.
Last jury duty, I was selected for a jury in the courtroom of the same judge, with the same defense attourney. The judge asked if anyone on the jury had any reasons, etc., and I raised my hand. I told him tactfully that "a prior trial over which he had presided, and with the same attourney," had made a strong impression on me and might sway my impartiality.
After a couple more oblique questions, I was dismissed. Haven't been called since.
Posted by: Hierominous Botch at September 21, 2019 12:25 PM (XuBZu)
153
I've been summoned tthere times, the first two times I had valid exemptions. The last time was not too long ago, I dropped a few pounds, bought new clothes, fami,iarized myself with location and parking well ahead of time, and then was never needed, because all the federal suits scheduled for the period of my service were settled, and I never had to even go downtown.
Posted by: SarahW at September 21, 2019 12:25 PM (g1vnC)
154
U.S. Rep. Joe Kennedy III formally declared his candidacy for the U.S. Senate on Saturday, becoming the first member of the Kennedy political dynasty to bid for the upper chamber of Congress since Edward M. Kennedy in 1962.
The Massachusetts Democrat formally announced his campaign in an email before a kickoff event in East Boston, where the Kennedy clan first settled after arriving from Ireland well over a century ago.
"I'm running because our country is at a moment of truth," Kennedy told supporters in the email. "Donald Trump has forced a long overdue reckoning in America. And how we respond will say everything about who we are."
U.S. Rep. Joe Kennedy III formally declared his candidacy for the U.S. Senate on Saturday, becoming the first member of the Kennedy political dynasty to bid for the upper chamber of Congress since Edward M. Kennedy in 1962.
The Massachusetts Democrat formally announced his campaign in an email before a kickoff event in East Boston, where the Kennedy clan first settled after arriving from Ireland well over a century ago.
"I'm running because our country is at a moment of truth," Kennedy told supporters in the email. "Donald Trump has forced a long overdue reckoning in America. And how we respond will say everything about who we are."
Posted by: Bertram Cabot, Jr. at September 21, 2019 12:26 PM (aKsyK)
155
I just completed jury service on a murder case in Ann Arbor. Three PhDs and at least 2 MAs on the jury. 2 weeks.
Very efficient and professional management of the jurors, pre- and post- selection.
Very efficient and professional management of the jurors, pre- and post- selection.
Posted by: sinmi at September 21, 2019 12:27 PM (kgOLv)
156
...I dropped a few pounds, bought new clothes...
*******
Never hurts to make a good first impression.
*******
Never hurts to make a good first impression.
Posted by: Muldoon at September 21, 2019 12:27 PM (m45I2)
157
In downtown Los Angeles there is juror parking available and the process is streamlined. But the jurors are treated like cattle, can even be transferred to courthouses many miles away after one has gone to the trouble of getting to this courthouse. I've been on two juries and it was amusing both times. But when the jury deliberates, some of the people who seemed normal suddenly get very stupid.
Posted by: microcosme at September 21, 2019 12:28 PM (B+xWY)
158
Circa 2001-2008 seemed like the summons came every other year at least. Since? Crickets. Have CDL, SS#, registered to vote.
Posted by: adobe juan hang em high kenobe at September 21, 2019 12:29 PM (oGag2)
159
"I'm running because our country is at a moment of truth," Kennedy told supporters in the email. "Donald Trump has forced a long overdue reckoning in America. And how we respond will say everything about who we are."
Posted by: Bertram Cabot, Jr. at September 21, 2019 12:26 PM (aKsyK)
Says to me that JoeK3 is a worthless sack of shit.
Posted by: Bertram Cabot, Jr. at September 21, 2019 12:26 PM (aKsyK)
Says to me that JoeK3 is a worthless sack of shit.
Posted by: Alberta Oil Peon at September 21, 2019 12:31 PM (jEgzt)
160
"Have you ever served on a jury before"
"Yes"
"What was that case?"
"We hung that black piece of shit that killed that white store clerk!"
DISMISSED!
"Have you ever served on a jury before"
"Yes"
"What was that case?"
"We hung that black piece of shit that killed that white store clerk!"
DISMISSED!
Posted by: My Pimp Shot My Dealer at September 21, 2019 12:33 PM (UFLLM)
161
I sat on a murder trial 8-10 years ago. In our area the setup isn't as bad as the blogger describes. The guy was found guilty. The funny part is without his statement to the police, I wouldn't have found him guilty. There were multiple witnesses to the shooting but no one could positively identify him. He admitted that he was driving the car but claimed some unknown party came up out of nowhere and fired at the victim from behind him. All the witnesses were positive the driver of the car got out and fired the shots.
Posted by: MickyD at September 21, 2019 12:33 PM (MqUsV)
162
"I'm running because our country is at a moment of truth," Kennedy
told supporters in the email. "Donald Trump has forced a long overdue
reckoning in America. And how we respond will say everything about who
we are."+++++++++
Never going to be done with this clan. Actually, as everyone here realizes, that "moment of truth" occurred eight years prior and Trump is our last and only chance to undo the catastrophic mistake that was done then.Camelot oh Camelot, where fore art thou sweet Camelot *spit*
"I'm running because our country is at a moment of truth," Kennedy
told supporters in the email. "Donald Trump has forced a long overdue
reckoning in America. And how we respond will say everything about who
we are."+++++++++
Never going to be done with this clan. Actually, as everyone here realizes, that "moment of truth" occurred eight years prior and Trump is our last and only chance to undo the catastrophic mistake that was done then.Camelot oh Camelot, where fore art thou sweet Camelot *spit*
Posted by: Old Dude at September 21, 2019 12:34 PM (LGXGf)
163
Hence the computer-selected names from a list of registered voters and licensed drivers.
------
So, if you're an illegal who registers to vote in a motor-voter state, you can serve on a jury? Great.
------
So, if you're an illegal who registers to vote in a motor-voter state, you can serve on a jury? Great.
Posted by: Yudhishthira's Dice at September 21, 2019 12:34 PM (NVNZk)
164
"I dropped a few pounds, bought new clothes," For jury duty? This is why us guys will never understand women
Posted by: gp, Decaffeinated By Popular Demand at September 21, 2019 12:35 PM (mk9aG)
165
Not many people know this, but "Twelve Angry Men" is an abbreviated version of an old Greek play called "Five Hundred Angry Men."
Posted by: RKae at September 21, 2019 12:35 PM (LTccB)
166
Crazy Uncle Joe is claiming President Trump is abusing power in the call to Ukraine, Crazy Uncle Joe didn't do anything wrong by every person's account.
Posted by: Skip
=======
I did my homework on that one and finally got (I think) a lay of the facts and even typed out a cute little summary for my own benefit and those of the morons. John Solomon has the latest and best column on it.
Yeah, he and Obama are guilty, and even the MSM are having trouble with it. They have to admit the leaky source is saying Trump sought no quid pro quo, and that the Hunter element looks bad for daddy and son.
Crazy Uncle Joe is claiming President Trump is abusing power in the call to Ukraine, Crazy Uncle Joe didn't do anything wrong by every person's account.
Posted by: Skip
=======
I did my homework on that one and finally got (I think) a lay of the facts and even typed out a cute little summary for my own benefit and those of the morons. John Solomon has the latest and best column on it.
Yeah, he and Obama are guilty, and even the MSM are having trouble with it. They have to admit the leaky source is saying Trump sought no quid pro quo, and that the Hunter element looks bad for daddy and son.
Posted by: Blonde Morticia at September 21, 2019 12:35 PM (13CQC)
167
Placed on a malpractice jury. Took us less than 15 minutes to agree ambulance chasing atty got nothing, vote to aquit a good doctor. During voir dire, a chap tried to be excused stating he hated american medical system, armenia had a better one. Judge thanked him, said you're excused from this week long at most civil trial to be kicked upstairs to the criminal jury pool where trials last months. Gavel, baliff.
Posted by: adobe juan kenobe at September 21, 2019 12:35 PM (oGag2)
168
I have served on local juries and on a federal jury. Very fine well-run experiences. Federal jury duty was in Rapid City. We recieved excellent instructions with maps marked with parking areas. Bailiffs were great. Jury waiting areas had fruit and other healthy snacks. And the judges and all other officials were superb.
I expected no less. South Dakota is a well run state.
I expected no less. South Dakota is a well run state.
Posted by: Just Lily at September 21, 2019 12:36 PM (H53JR)
Posted by: My Pimp Shot My Dealer at September 21, 2019 12:36 PM (UFLLM)
170
A jury of 500 sounds a little unwieldy to me. What do you imagine that was like?
Kinda like the Democrat debates?
Also "B.C.E." --> "B.C."
Kinda like the Democrat debates?
Also "B.C.E." --> "B.C."
Posted by: Deplorable Jay Guevara at September 21, 2019 12:37 PM (A68IW)
171
If there is one aspect of our republic that generally works, it is the jury system. No doubt, sometimes it does not. But in the vast majority of cases, it does, and it also represents the best example of small "g" government we have. As a trial judge in Texas, and a lurking moron, my favorite war stories are jury selection stories. And my juries always tried conscientiously to get the facts right. Also, they are the best example of how to ignore intersectionality, probably because they all have in common wanting not to be selected in the first place. Very few people want to sit on a jury. But most understand how important it is. William F. Buckley's preference of being governed by the first 200 names in the Boston phone book versus the faculty at Harvard is on point. People with common sense and better things to do make the best possible jurors, and they come in all shapes, sizes and colors.
Posted by: Mongo Mere Pawn at September 21, 2019 12:38 PM (Xh7t/)
172
Seen on Insty: a town in Massachusetts is being paralyzed by "ISLAM IS RIGHT ABOUT WOMEN" flyers. Denying it is Islamophobia, and supporting it is misogyny, so it's a lose-lose for the left. Whoever thought those up is brilliant.
Posted by: Ian S.
----
Hmmm... Gotta try this with "ISLAM IS RIGHT ABOUT HOMOSEXUALS!" flyers!
Posted by: Ian S.
----
Hmmm... Gotta try this with "ISLAM IS RIGHT ABOUT HOMOSEXUALS!" flyers!
Posted by: RKae at September 21, 2019 12:38 PM (LTccB)
173
Seems to me the parking issue for jurors and prospective jurors could be solved by reimbursing those people for cab or uber fare to and from the courthouse.
Posted by: Alberta Oil Peon at September 21, 2019 12:38 PM (jEgzt)
174
The exact circumstances of the injury case I was on actually comes up very often ( it was a material delivery from a box truck) so have told many drivers of it, and being foreman and most of the jury didn't buy the case as it was against the recipient but actually talked a couple of holdouts it wasn't just some insurance company paying so no harm to anyone.
Posted by: Skip at September 21, 2019 12:38 PM (ZCEU2)
Posted by: My Pimp Shot My Dealer at September 21, 2019 12:39 PM (UFLLM)
176
My feeling is, when the lawyer starts talking about the defendant's childhood and what not, the defendant is probably guilty.
Posted by: BeckoningChasm at September 21, 2019 12:39 PM (l9m7l)
177
"he hated american medical system, armenia had a better one."
Well I guess he regrets being kidnapped from Armenia and being dumped off in America, with no way of getting back to his beloved paradise.
Well I guess he regrets being kidnapped from Armenia and being dumped off in America, with no way of getting back to his beloved paradise.
Posted by: gp, Decaffeinated By Popular Demand at September 21, 2019 12:40 PM (mk9aG)
178
Isn't 12 Angry Men the one where a single juror convinces the other 11 jurors (via a long and arduous debate fraught with emotional upheaval) to change their 'guilty' votes to 'not guilty', only to change his own ''not guilty' vote 'guilty' at the last minute, just to be contrarian?
No wonder they were angry!
No wonder they were angry!
Posted by: Muldoon at September 21, 2019 12:40 PM (m45I2)
179
Joe Biden just blasts them with both barrels.
Like Corn Puff.
Like Corn Puff.
Posted by: torabora at September 21, 2019 12:40 PM (Y274z)
180
" when the lawyer starts talking about the defendant's childhood and what not, "
That's when I stand up in the jury box and shout "Hold My Beer!"
That's when I stand up in the jury box and shout "Hold My Beer!"
Posted by: gp, Decaffeinated By Popular Demand at September 21, 2019 12:40 PM (mk9aG)
181
Also "B.C.E." --> "B.C."
Posted by: Deplorable Jay Guevara
----
I fucking HATE "B.C.E." It's B.C. because Christians made the calendar, damn it!
Same way that America led the way in aviation, so English is the international language of aviation. We won the race, so we pick the language.
If people don't like B.C. then invent a new calendar.
Posted by: Deplorable Jay Guevara
----
I fucking HATE "B.C.E." It's B.C. because Christians made the calendar, damn it!
Same way that America led the way in aviation, so English is the international language of aviation. We won the race, so we pick the language.
If people don't like B.C. then invent a new calendar.
Posted by: RKae at September 21, 2019 12:41 PM (LTccB)
182
Any reason the justice system comes up as a topic on the weekend of the Michigan MoMee?
Posted by: Jinx the Cat at September 21, 2019 12:41 PM (FTlwv)
Posted by: SMH at September 21, 2019 12:41 PM (RU4sa)
184
"I'm running because our country is at a moment of truth," Kennedy told supporters in the email. "Donald Trump has forced a long overdue reckoning in America. And how we respond will say everything about who we are."
Posted by: Bertram Cabot, Jr. at September 21, 2019 12:26 PM (aKsyK)
I can answer that for him already. You're drunken reprobate opportunists.
I assume he was referring to the Kennedys.
Posted by: Bertram Cabot, Jr. at September 21, 2019 12:26 PM (aKsyK)
I can answer that for him already. You're drunken reprobate opportunists.
I assume he was referring to the Kennedys.
Posted by: Deplorable Jay Guevara at September 21, 2019 12:41 PM (A68IW)
185
Isn't 12 Angry Men the one where a single juror convinces the other 11 jurors (via a long and arduous debate fraught with emotional upheaval) to change their 'guilty' votes to 'not guilty', only to change his own ''not guilty' vote 'guilty' at the last minute, just to be contrarian?
---
Spoiler alert: No. He doesn't change his vote in the end.
They acquit the suspect.
---
Spoiler alert: No. He doesn't change his vote in the end.
They acquit the suspect.
Posted by: RKae at September 21, 2019 12:42 PM (LTccB)
186
"Isn't 12 Angry Men the one where ..." ... Sidney Lumet proves again he is one of the greatest directors of all time.
Posted by: gp, Decaffeinated By Popular Demand at September 21, 2019 12:42 PM (mk9aG)
187
Oh boy, juries. Two were memorable here in Harris County, Texas. Not my last time (in which I showed up, waited a couple of hours in the assembly room, and then got dismissed) but the time before I got put on a panel and about 30 of us got put into a large room with a table and six chairs, and a water cooler but no cups, and we waited. We were there about four hours. The bailiff appeared a couple of times to tell us that they were searching for one of the defendants, but that it wouldn't be much longer. Right at the end, the judge showed up and thanked us for our service. It turns out that many defendants are sure they want a jury trial right up until the point that the trial will begin, at which point they plead out, so just having a jury meant they could deal with a dozen cases.
The other memorable one was a small claims case at a JP (Justice of the Peace) court. Instead of being at the main courthouse downtown, it was at an annex, (the Chimney Rock one, for those familiar with Houston) and we didn't have to go through metal detectors or anything. They only needed six jurors, but I don't think they thought anybody would show up, so there was a whole horde of us. I was like #60 and sat at the back of the courtroom for voir dire. It was small claims so the only lawyer there was the judge and neither the plaintiff (someone who was unhappy with the job a mechanic did on her car) nor the defendant (the mechanic) knew anything about jury selection. That meant that they just took the first six people. I have no idea how it turned out.
The other memorable one was a small claims case at a JP (Justice of the Peace) court. Instead of being at the main courthouse downtown, it was at an annex, (the Chimney Rock one, for those familiar with Houston) and we didn't have to go through metal detectors or anything. They only needed six jurors, but I don't think they thought anybody would show up, so there was a whole horde of us. I was like #60 and sat at the back of the courtroom for voir dire. It was small claims so the only lawyer there was the judge and neither the plaintiff (someone who was unhappy with the job a mechanic did on her car) nor the defendant (the mechanic) knew anything about jury selection. That meant that they just took the first six people. I have no idea how it turned out.
Posted by: Cybersmythe at September 21, 2019 12:42 PM (edlKR)
188
#NEW: Democratic presidential candidate Cory Booker's campaign says he may end his run if he's unable to raise an additional $1.7 million in donations by Sept. 30 to remain competitive in a crowded primary field
*******
AWWWWWWWWWWW
*******
AWWWWWWWWWWW
Posted by: Deep State is in Deep Shit at September 21, 2019 12:42 PM (BqBId)
189
When I was on a jury, the judge got mad at me for not answering her stupid question correctly. She treated me like I was the one on trial. I have nothing but contempt for every court in this country. The "justice" system if a complete farce.
Posted by: Joe B at September 21, 2019 12:43 PM (6XZdO)
190
If people don't like B.C. then invent a new calendar.
Posted by: RKae at September 21, 2019 12:41 PM (LTccB)
B.C. is full of moonbats. That's why I got out.
Posted by: RKae at September 21, 2019 12:41 PM (LTccB)
B.C. is full of moonbats. That's why I got out.
Posted by: Alberta Oil Peon at September 21, 2019 12:44 PM (jEgzt)
191
Having been a PoPo for 10 years I am immediately dismissed as soon as the questionnaires are reviewed.
But an illegal with a DL can sit and serve.
Having been a PoPo for 10 years I am immediately dismissed as soon as the questionnaires are reviewed.
But an illegal with a DL can sit and serve.
Posted by: Pendulous Richard at September 21, 2019 12:44 PM (UFLLM)
192
Isn't 12 Angry Men the one where a single juror convinces the other 11 jurors (via a long and arduous debate fraught with emotional upheaval) to change their 'guilty' votes to 'not guilty', only to change his own ''not guilty' vote 'guilty' at the last minute, just to be contrarian?
That was the spin-off "One Dead Juror"
Isn't 12 Angry Men the one where a single juror convinces the other 11 jurors (via a long and arduous debate fraught with emotional upheaval) to change their 'guilty' votes to 'not guilty', only to change his own ''not guilty' vote 'guilty' at the last minute, just to be contrarian?
That was the spin-off "One Dead Juror"
Posted by: Bertram Cabot, Jr. at September 21, 2019 12:44 PM (aKsyK)
193
Also, they are the best example of how to ignore intersectionality, probably because they all have in common wanting not to be selected in the first place.
Very few people want to sit on a jury.
Posted by: Mongo Mere Pawn
Solution? Tell people upfront what they would be sitting on.
"Today we are trying a pedophile"
Watch how quick that room fills up.
Very few people want to sit on a jury.
Posted by: Mongo Mere Pawn
Solution? Tell people upfront what they would be sitting on.
"Today we are trying a pedophile"
Watch how quick that room fills up.
Posted by: rickb223 at September 21, 2019 12:44 PM (VY2sw)
194
Muldoon--
FWIW, I live in a reddish-purple county in Texas. Could be part of the difference.
Also, the morons would have loved our judge. I did and so did my DIL, who was on a jury in his courtroom only a few months later.
FWIW, I live in a reddish-purple county in Texas. Could be part of the difference.
Also, the morons would have loved our judge. I did and so did my DIL, who was on a jury in his courtroom only a few months later.
Posted by: Art Rondelet of Malmsey at September 21, 2019 12:45 PM (S+f+m)
195
there have been countless reenactments of "12 angry men" in tv shows and movies. i'd like to see the story turned on its head, with the hero holding out for guilty and having to convince the other jurors who all want to acquit.
Posted by: musical jolly chimp at September 21, 2019 12:45 PM (Pg+x7)
196
Why not lose that PC BCE bullshit!
Posted by: xa4 nasal radiator at September 21, 2019 12:46 PM (xkudx)
197
72 . . . Yes, I would have nullified.
Posted by: gp, Decaffeinated By Popular Demand
___________
Mrs. Furious was on a jury for a case involving a disgruntled citizen who was guilty of x, but had also been charged with y by an ambitious prosecutor. The jury quickly agreed that the citizen was guilty of x and that he was technically guilty of y.
The jury was reluctant to find the citizen guilty of y, because the decision to also charge y appeared to be politically motivated and would clearly generate headlines that would be useful in any future political campaign for higher office. However, the y charge technically fit, so they didn't acquit, and they all felt horrible doing so.
Mrs. Furious didn't know about right of nullification (I know, I know, public schools, etc.) She swears that if there had been a nullification instruction, the citizen would still have been found guilty of x, but would have skated on y--the politically motivated charge.
Posted by: gp, Decaffeinated By Popular Demand
___________
Mrs. Furious was on a jury for a case involving a disgruntled citizen who was guilty of x, but had also been charged with y by an ambitious prosecutor. The jury quickly agreed that the citizen was guilty of x and that he was technically guilty of y.
The jury was reluctant to find the citizen guilty of y, because the decision to also charge y appeared to be politically motivated and would clearly generate headlines that would be useful in any future political campaign for higher office. However, the y charge technically fit, so they didn't acquit, and they all felt horrible doing so.
Mrs. Furious didn't know about right of nullification (I know, I know, public schools, etc.) She swears that if there had been a nullification instruction, the citizen would still have been found guilty of x, but would have skated on y--the politically motivated charge.
Posted by: Furious George at September 21, 2019 12:47 PM (NaOCp)
198
there have been countless reenactments of "12 angry men" in tv shows and movies. i'd like to see the story turned on its head, with the hero holding out for guilty and having to convince the other jurors who all want to acquit.
Posted by: musical jolly chimp
----
That one could be called "11 Ignorant Men and 1 Who Isn't a Fool."
Posted by: musical jolly chimp
----
That one could be called "11 Ignorant Men and 1 Who Isn't a Fool."
Posted by: RKae at September 21, 2019 12:47 PM (LTccB)
199
"i'd like to see the story turned on its head, with the hero holding out for guilty and having to convince the other jurors who all want to acquit."
The American Crime Story OJ season had a little itty bit of that. White female juror who voted guilty quickly intimidated by guess who.
The American Crime Story OJ season had a little itty bit of that. White female juror who voted guilty quickly intimidated by guess who.
Posted by: gp, Decaffeinated By Popular Demand at September 21, 2019 12:48 PM (mk9aG)
200
Why not lose that PC BCE bullshit!
Posted by: xa4 nasal radiator at September 21, 2019 12:46 PM (xkudx)
Despite my little joke above, you won't catch me using it.
Posted by: xa4 nasal radiator at September 21, 2019 12:46 PM (xkudx)
Despite my little joke above, you won't catch me using it.
Posted by: Alberta Oil Peon at September 21, 2019 12:49 PM (jEgzt)
201
The American Crime Story OJ season had a little itty bit of that. White female juror who voted guilty quickly intimidated by guess who.
Posted by: gp, Decaffeinated By Popular Demand at September 21, 2019 12:48 PM (mk9aG)
Future criminal defendants?
Posted by: gp, Decaffeinated By Popular Demand at September 21, 2019 12:48 PM (mk9aG)
Future criminal defendants?
Posted by: Deplorable Jay Guevara at September 21, 2019 12:49 PM (A68IW)
202
"i'd like to see the story turned on its head, with the hero holding out for guilty and having to convince the other jurors who all want to acquit."
12 Happy Wymyn
All about convicting an evil deplorable man.
"i'd like to see the story turned on its head, with the hero holding out for guilty and having to convince the other jurors who all want to acquit."
12 Happy Wymyn
All about convicting an evil deplorable man.
Posted by: Bertram Cabot, Jr. at September 21, 2019 12:49 PM (aKsyK)
203
"Future criminal defendants?" You win ten quatloos.
Posted by: gp, Decaffeinated By Popular Demand at September 21, 2019 12:50 PM (mk9aG)
Posted by: Sharkman at September 21, 2019 12:51 PM (xgyDD)
205
O/T
Billy Fleming , landscape architecture professor at University of Pennsylvania says that in 12 years much of America will be under water or on fire!
Not much future for his stutents
Billy Fleming , landscape architecture professor at University of Pennsylvania says that in 12 years much of America will be under water or on fire!
Not much future for his stutents
Posted by: MAC SOG'''' at September 21, 2019 12:51 PM (P4Pk9)
206
12 Angry white upper middle class cheating wine moms virtue signal a not guilty verdict for a handicapped black gay transexual serial killer: the stage play, now on ice at the OJ skating arena!
12 Angry white upper middle class cheating wine moms virtue signal a not guilty verdict for a handicapped black gay transexual serial killer: the stage play, now on ice at the OJ skating arena!
Posted by: Pendulous Richard at September 21, 2019 12:51 PM (UFLLM)
207
I was on a medical malpractice jury in Berkeley that involved a Jewish doctor and a black laborer.
Jury deliberations were kind of the Super Bowl of Prejudices. A black female law student and I used to go out to lunch together, as we were apparently the only two people paid any attention to the evidence.
Jury deliberations were kind of the Super Bowl of Prejudices. A black female law student and I used to go out to lunch together, as we were apparently the only two people paid any attention to the evidence.
Posted by: Deplorable Jay Guevara at September 21, 2019 12:52 PM (A68IW)
208
O/T
Billy Fleming , landscape architecture professor at University of Pennsylvania says that in 12 years much of America will be under water or on fire!
Not much future for his stutents
Posted by: MAC SOG'''
Well, maybe the professor should just retire while he can and the students can quit school and wander until the end.
Billy Fleming , landscape architecture professor at University of Pennsylvania says that in 12 years much of America will be under water or on fire!
Not much future for his stutents
Posted by: MAC SOG'''
Well, maybe the professor should just retire while he can and the students can quit school and wander until the end.
Posted by: Infidel at September 21, 2019 12:52 PM (BLFnH)
209
Did you hear about the fella who was arrested for taking a sign that said "Void Where Prohibited" too literally and urinating in public.
He asked to be tried by a jury of peers.
(Wait for it)
He asked to be tried by a jury of peers.
(Wait for it)
Posted by: Muldoon at September 21, 2019 12:53 PM (m45I2)
210
"in 12 years much of America will be under water or on fire!"
Why not both? If it's apocalypse you want, go whole hog.
Why not both? If it's apocalypse you want, go whole hog.
Posted by: gp, Decaffeinated By Popular Demand at September 21, 2019 12:54 PM (mk9aG)
211
Served on a jury trying a case of alleged kidnapping and assault (of an adult) by her baby daddy. It was pretty obviously a revenge ploy by the girl and her mom, and we acquitted him.
We did have to explain to one lady that "I don't like their looks" is not a valid reason to let him off.
The process moved pretty quickly, but I lost a little Leatherman going through security- just forgot I had it in my purse. I did have to stay overnight in a motel to be there on time, as I lived in another town and don't drive in the dark.
Glad to have had the experience. Wouldn't mind doing it again.
We did have to explain to one lady that "I don't like their looks" is not a valid reason to let him off.
The process moved pretty quickly, but I lost a little Leatherman going through security- just forgot I had it in my purse. I did have to stay overnight in a motel to be there on time, as I lived in another town and don't drive in the dark.
Glad to have had the experience. Wouldn't mind doing it again.
Posted by: Sal at September 21, 2019 12:54 PM (2qCi9)
212
Billy Fleming , landscape architecture professor at University of Pennsylvania says that in 12 years much of America will be under water or on fire!
Not much future for his stutents
Posted by: MAC SOG'''
Well, maybe the professor should just retire while he can and the students can quit school and wander until the end.
Posted by: Infidel at September 21, 2019 12:52 PM (BLFnH)
Uh, how can both those be true?
/looks confused
Not much future for his stutents
Posted by: MAC SOG'''
Well, maybe the professor should just retire while he can and the students can quit school and wander until the end.
Posted by: Infidel at September 21, 2019 12:52 PM (BLFnH)
Uh, how can both those be true?
/looks confused
Posted by: Don Q at September 21, 2019 12:54 PM (NgKpN)
213
If I am ever on a federal jury it's not guilty from me. Fuck you Deep State.
Posted by: Lurking Lurker - Not In My Purview at September 21, 2019 11:00 AM (FiUMj)
===
Me too LL. I will tell them that if the FIB is for one side I will vote against that side.... oh and to suck a nice greasy turd out of my asshole.
Posted by: Lurking Lurker - Not In My Purview at September 21, 2019 11:00 AM (FiUMj)
===
Me too LL. I will tell them that if the FIB is for one side I will vote against that side.... oh and to suck a nice greasy turd out of my asshole.
Posted by: Jukin the Deplorable and Profoundly Unserious at September 21, 2019 12:54 PM (pw+jk)
214
Better to kill an innocent by mistake than spare an enemy by mistake.
Posted by: Zombie Pol Pot 2020 Democrat Presidential Candidate at September 21, 2019 12:54 PM (Z+IKu)
215
Speaking of movies by my count we should have a Movie thread tonight.
Posted by: Skip at September 21, 2019 12:55 PM (ZCEU2)
216
"I'm running because our country is at a moment of truth," Kennedy told supporters in the email.
-
"And this truth shit is an existential threat to the Democratic Party and must be wiped out!" he continued.
-
"And this truth shit is an existential threat to the Democratic Party and must be wiped out!" he continued.
Posted by: Anonosaurus Wrecks, Tyrannosaur Wrangler at September 21, 2019 12:55 PM (+y/Ru)
217
"in 12 years much of America will be under water or on fire!"
While the rest of the world, climate saints that they are, point and laugh.
While the rest of the world, climate saints that they are, point and laugh.
Posted by: gp, Decaffeinated By Popular Demand at September 21, 2019 12:55 PM (mk9aG)
218
My only jury experience was a DUI and what an eye opener it was. Cop followed a kid for 20 blocks, finally pulling him over for not coming to a complete stop at a right turn. Cop's body cam conveniently failed and we only had his partners from 20 ft away as he did the olympics. In my opinion he passed everything fine. They explained that this test checks say 20 things but if you fail 4 of them you are drunk. So that's not biased at all. Finally they had the kid blow and he blew a .10. After a state witness badly explained the test she says it has a plus minus .01 error margin. So at best he was .09, with .08 the limit.
In the jury room I got every piece of evidence dismissed except for the stupid breathalyzer. I'm not condemning driving while drunk but the deck is totally stacked against you even if you are perfectly fine to drive. The lesson is, DON'T blow. Ever. Make them get a warrant and take a blood sample.
My parents have been on a bunch of juries, including murder, meth labs, domestic violence. They are just lucky I guess. Guy I work with was on the Mathew Shepard trial. He says that was the biggest shit show he'd ever seen.
In the jury room I got every piece of evidence dismissed except for the stupid breathalyzer. I'm not condemning driving while drunk but the deck is totally stacked against you even if you are perfectly fine to drive. The lesson is, DON'T blow. Ever. Make them get a warrant and take a blood sample.
My parents have been on a bunch of juries, including murder, meth labs, domestic violence. They are just lucky I guess. Guy I work with was on the Mathew Shepard trial. He says that was the biggest shit show he'd ever seen.
Posted by: Fletch at September 21, 2019 12:56 PM (Wxzj0)
219
"We're uninterested in your guilt or innocence. We're going to ruin you, in lawyer and court costs, if you don't plea deal." The need for reform is total.
Posted by: BourbonChicken at September 21, 2019 12:56 PM (LxTcq)
220
Uh, how can both those be true?
/looks confused
Posted by: Don Q at September 21, 2019 12:54 PM (NgKpN)
Beats me, and the university's are full of these assholes
/looks confused
Posted by: Don Q at September 21, 2019 12:54 PM (NgKpN)
Beats me, and the university's are full of these assholes
Posted by: MAC SOG'''' at September 21, 2019 12:56 PM (P4Pk9)
221
much of America will be under water or on fire!
********
Once again the planet demonstrates its equilibrium.
********
Once again the planet demonstrates its equilibrium.
Posted by: Muldoon at September 21, 2019 12:57 PM (m45I2)
222
208 Why hold classes? Do it for free as I'm sure the university has 10 years of cash to blow.
Posted by: Skip at September 21, 2019 12:57 PM (ZCEU2)
223
"We did have to explain to one lady that "I don't like their looks" is not a valid reason to let him off."
Please talk to her again before Nov 2020. I hear that stuff from women talking about political candidates ALL THE TIME.
Please talk to her again before Nov 2020. I hear that stuff from women talking about political candidates ALL THE TIME.
Posted by: gp, Decaffeinated By Popular Demand at September 21, 2019 12:57 PM (mk9aG)
224
Billy Fleming , landscape architecture professor at University of Pennsylvania says that in 12 years much of America will be under water or on fire!
Not much future for his stutents
Posted by: MAC SOG'''
Well, maybe the professor should just retire while he can and the students can quit school and wander until the end.
Posted by: Infidel
Walk the Earth like Kwai Chang Caine.
Not much future for his stutents
Posted by: MAC SOG'''
Well, maybe the professor should just retire while he can and the students can quit school and wander until the end.
Posted by: Infidel
Walk the Earth like Kwai Chang Caine.
Posted by: Anonosaurus Wrecks, Tyrannosaur Wrangler at September 21, 2019 12:57 PM (+y/Ru)
225
Walk the Earth like Kwai Chang Caine.
Posted by: Anonosaurus Wrecks, Tyrannosaur Wrangler at September 21, 2019 12:57 PM (+y/Ru)
Why walk? Just hang around like him.
Posted by: Anonosaurus Wrecks, Tyrannosaur Wrangler at September 21, 2019 12:57 PM (+y/Ru)
Why walk? Just hang around like him.
Posted by: Deplorable Jay Guevara at September 21, 2019 12:58 PM (A68IW)
226
Billy Fleming , landscape architecture professor at University of Pennsylvania says that in 12 years much of America will be under water or on fire!
Not much future for his stutents
---
On fire is just about right...
Twelve years, though?
Meh, I'm counting on much sooner.
Not much future for his stutents
---
On fire is just about right...
Twelve years, though?
Meh, I'm counting on much sooner.
Posted by: SMH at September 21, 2019 12:59 PM (RU4sa)
227
Right after I moved to my current sparsely populated area there was a unique situation where there was some kind of miscommunication on some jury case and only like half the jury showed up. I think it was some screwup by the clerk but instead of postponing the case, I think it was a DUI, the Judge sent the Sheriff out to get a few people off the street, and they did.
Posted by: lowandslow at September 21, 2019 01:00 PM (Mr80f)
228
While at least 20 years ago trial I was on being a personal injury case the 2 sides had lots to win or lose, wasn't a government DA who has a paycheck coming tomorrow in either case. It was winner take all so remember it as very professional.
Posted by: Skip at September 21, 2019 01:00 PM (ZCEU2)
229
Billy Fleming , landscape architecture professor at University of Pennsylvania says that in 12 years much of America will be under water or on fire!
Not much future for his stutents
---
*raises hand* What about the rest of the world?
Not much future for his stutents
---
*raises hand* What about the rest of the world?
Posted by: Infidel at September 21, 2019 01:00 PM (BLFnH)
230
*raises hand* What about the rest of the world?
Posted by: Infidel at September 21, 2019 01:00 PM (BLFnH)
---
Pretty sure God mentions the world in Revelation.
Posted by: Infidel at September 21, 2019 01:00 PM (BLFnH)
---
Pretty sure God mentions the world in Revelation.
Posted by: SMH at September 21, 2019 01:01 PM (RU4sa)
231
...much of America will be under water or on fire!
*******
The lungs of the planet are just gargling!
*******
The lungs of the planet are just gargling!
Posted by: Muldoon at September 21, 2019 01:02 PM (m45I2)
232
*raises hand* What about the rest of the world?
Posted by: Infidel at September 21, 2019 01:00 PM (BLFnH)
I think that whenever Warmists say that Bangladesh will be under water.
Problem? Not seeing it.
Posted by: Infidel at September 21, 2019 01:00 PM (BLFnH)
I think that whenever Warmists say that Bangladesh will be under water.
Problem? Not seeing it.
Posted by: Deplorable Jay Guevara at September 21, 2019 01:02 PM (A68IW)
233
My one experience with jury duty (many years ago in CA) taught me that most people are stupid and small-time lawyers are even worse.
Posted by: Bob the Bilderberg at September 21, 2019 01:03 PM (QaUCE)
234
The lungs of the planet are just gargling!
Posted by: Muldoon
---
Those darned lungs of the world never should have taken up vaping!
Posted by: Muldoon
---
Those darned lungs of the world never should have taken up vaping!
Posted by: RKae at September 21, 2019 01:03 PM (LTccB)
235
Oh, I know, SMH, I just wasn't very adept at pointing out the profs ignorance.
Posted by: Infidel at September 21, 2019 01:04 PM (BLFnH)
236
The Arc of History has determined that we will be ruled by autistic teenage demons. And who wants to be on the wrong side of history?
Posted by: Ripley at September 21, 2019 01:04 PM (MxEKc)
237
uch of America will be under water or on fire!
**********
Oh, that can't be. The school children skipped class yesterday and held signs and stuff, so we've reversed the process.
**********
Oh, that can't be. The school children skipped class yesterday and held signs and stuff, so we've reversed the process.
Posted by: Muldoon at September 21, 2019 01:04 PM (m45I2)
238
court houses and facilities are built for criminals and lawyers and judges. then at the very bottom of all considerations: juries (cattle barns better in some cases)
Posted by: just do something at September 21, 2019 01:05 PM (0hOKG)
239
"Problem? Not seeing it."
Problem is that all the guilt-ridden progressives will fight to bring all "climate refugees" to America (despite our imminent burning or drowning,) because we "owe it to them" for our manifold American sins.
Problem is that all the guilt-ridden progressives will fight to bring all "climate refugees" to America (despite our imminent burning or drowning,) because we "owe it to them" for our manifold American sins.
Posted by: gp, Decaffeinated By Popular Demand at September 21, 2019 01:05 PM (mk9aG)
Posted by: Bertram Cabot, Jr. at September 21, 2019 01:05 PM (aKsyK)
Posted by: Muldoon at September 21, 2019 01:07 PM (m45I2)
242
12 Angry Years
Posted by: Muldoon at September 21, 2019 01:07 PM (m45I2)
243
Those darned lungs of the world never should have taken up vaping!
Posted by: RKae
Walmart says it will stop selling electronic cigarettes at its namesake stores and Sam's Clubs following a string illnesses and deaths related to vaping.
The nation's largest retailer said Friday that it will complete its exit from e-cigarettes after selling through current inventory. It cited growing federal, state and local regulatory complexity regarding vaping products.
Those darned lungs of the world never should have taken up vaping!
Posted by: RKae
Walmart says it will stop selling electronic cigarettes at its namesake stores and Sam's Clubs following a string illnesses and deaths related to vaping.
The nation's largest retailer said Friday that it will complete its exit from e-cigarettes after selling through current inventory. It cited growing federal, state and local regulatory complexity regarding vaping products.
Posted by: Bertram Cabot, Jr. at September 21, 2019 01:08 PM (aKsyK)
244
Open thread?
Days That End in 'Y' is up and running.
https://locomotivebreath1901.blogspot.com/2019/09/days-that-end-in-y_21.html
Days That End in 'Y' is up and running.
https://locomotivebreath1901.blogspot.com/2019/09/days-that-end-in-y_21.html
Posted by: BlackPantiesAngelsFace at September 21, 2019 01:08 PM (0BFUD)
245
Problem is that all the guilt-ridden progressives will fight to bring all "climate refugees" to America (despite our imminent burning or drowning,) because we "owe it to them" for our manifold American sins.
Posted by: gp, Decaffeinated By Popular Demand at September 21, 2019 01:05 PM (mk9aG)
Yep, there is that. I don't suppose we could get away with just sending them a boatload of rubber ducks?
Posted by: gp, Decaffeinated By Popular Demand at September 21, 2019 01:05 PM (mk9aG)
Yep, there is that. I don't suppose we could get away with just sending them a boatload of rubber ducks?
Posted by: Deplorable Jay Guevara at September 21, 2019 01:09 PM (A68IW)
246
The Arc of History has determined that we will be ruled byred-haired, freckle-faced autistic teenage demons.
********
Now THAT'S an Opie-oid crisis!
********
Now THAT'S an Opie-oid crisis!
Posted by: Muldoon at September 21, 2019 01:09 PM (m45I2)
247
The jury I wish I served on was the one that convicted that concealed carrier who got shoved down by that big thug. No way would I have voted him guilty of "standing your ground" while actually "sitting on the ground." The world is a far better place without that belligerent thug he popped. Yes, I would have nullified.
Posted by: gp, Decaffeinated By Popular Demand at September 21, 2019 11:28 AM
You see belligerent thug. I see guy pushing crazy guy away from his wife/girlfriend. A ccw doesn't give you the power to enforce handicapped parking. I hope that asshole gets shanked in prison and dies painfully.
When I got my CCW they constantly stressed that if you are carrying you have to let stuff like getting cut off in traffic go. This guy thought it was a license to be a traffic enforcer.
Posted by: gp, Decaffeinated By Popular Demand at September 21, 2019 11:28 AM
You see belligerent thug. I see guy pushing crazy guy away from his wife/girlfriend. A ccw doesn't give you the power to enforce handicapped parking. I hope that asshole gets shanked in prison and dies painfully.
When I got my CCW they constantly stressed that if you are carrying you have to let stuff like getting cut off in traffic go. This guy thought it was a license to be a traffic enforcer.
Posted by: Chuck C at September 21, 2019 01:09 PM (rZTXM)
248
My jury experience was smooth, proceeded quickly and efficiently, was very professional. I made it to the courtroom where the jury questioning took place. I was dismissed because I had been the victim of a violent crime. Took about two hours total. Robbery case.
Posted by: grammie winger at September 21, 2019 01:10 PM (lwiT4)
249
"ISLAM IS RIGHT ABOUT WOMEN" Does not compute for the NPC. Maybe they will listen the next time we say that identity politics is divisive and poisonous.
Posted by: BourbonChicken at September 21, 2019 01:10 PM (LxTcq)
250
(Wait for it)
Posted by: Muldoon at September 21, 2019 12:53 PM (m45I2)
some puns call for elimination
(Wait for it)
Posted by: Muldoon at September 21, 2019 12:53 PM (m45I2)
some puns call for elimination
Posted by: vmom happy to have read a good book! at September 21, 2019 01:12 PM (+72t1)
251
Fish Sticks,
Same here every time. I was told by a state prosecutor who I was dealing with on another matter that he would NEVER have an Engineer on a jury. Not emotionally vulnerable or something like that.
Same here every time. I was told by a state prosecutor who I was dealing with on another matter that he would NEVER have an Engineer on a jury. Not emotionally vulnerable or something like that.
Posted by: pawn at September 21, 2019 01:13 PM (+LeF+)
252
"When I got my CCW they constantly stressed that if you are carrying you have to let stuff like getting cut off in traffic go. This guy thought it was a license to be a traffic enforcer."
I am a concealed carrier. Yes, I would never argue with ANY black person on the street. I practice situational awareness, stay out of all trouble. Nevertheless, I would have hung that jury. Black people have a notion that they can INITIATE violence whenever they feel disrespected, and I'm tired of it. I think the world is a better place without that belligerent thug.
I am a concealed carrier. Yes, I would never argue with ANY black person on the street. I practice situational awareness, stay out of all trouble. Nevertheless, I would have hung that jury. Black people have a notion that they can INITIATE violence whenever they feel disrespected, and I'm tired of it. I think the world is a better place without that belligerent thug.
Posted by: gp, Decaffeinated By Popular Demand at September 21, 2019 01:13 PM (mk9aG)
253
The Earf is DYING!!! *hic*
Posted by: Wine Moms at September 21, 2019 01:14 PM (EgshT)
254
FACEBOOK DECLARES IT'S A 'PUBLISHER,' CAN CENSOR WHOMEVER IT WANTS...
Apparently Big Tech is now convinced that it can buy off any court, any jury and judge.
Then again, our libel laws are so worthless, they are essentially the enforceable equivalent of the Logan Act.
I wish there was a way to just save everyone time and just have a way to auction off my verdict to the highest bidder.
There is not a soul in the court-room who is the least bit interested in the law, duty or justice.
Both sides will gaslight the jury, suppress evidence and deliberately create opportunities for people to draw the wrong conclusions.
For example, I know that the Dallas police officer case involving gunning down a neighbor will be nothing but lies and distortions from both sides. It would not be possible for me to render a verdict based on law, ethics or the facts.
In a way, its the court-system performing a show trial against one of their own goons.
Why should I get involved in a family dispute?
Apparently Big Tech is now convinced that it can buy off any court, any jury and judge.
Then again, our libel laws are so worthless, they are essentially the enforceable equivalent of the Logan Act.
I wish there was a way to just save everyone time and just have a way to auction off my verdict to the highest bidder.
There is not a soul in the court-room who is the least bit interested in the law, duty or justice.
Both sides will gaslight the jury, suppress evidence and deliberately create opportunities for people to draw the wrong conclusions.
For example, I know that the Dallas police officer case involving gunning down a neighbor will be nothing but lies and distortions from both sides. It would not be possible for me to render a verdict based on law, ethics or the facts.
In a way, its the court-system performing a show trial against one of their own goons.
Why should I get involved in a family dispute?
Posted by: ʎoſ ƃuᴉ,Ⅎ ɟo pɹᴉq ǝnlq at September 21, 2019 01:15 PM (lD3vL)
255
Picked one time.
Became an alternate.
Assault case. Guy was guilty no doubt about it and he was found guilty. My iPad made the waiting easier.
Will do it again. Hoping to to be the lone not guilty vote in a case where a conservative mows down Antifa scum with an AR-15 in front of that Irish-Mexican. A big fuck you to all the Libtards.
Became an alternate.
Assault case. Guy was guilty no doubt about it and he was found guilty. My iPad made the waiting easier.
Will do it again. Hoping to to be the lone not guilty vote in a case where a conservative mows down Antifa scum with an AR-15 in front of that Irish-Mexican. A big fuck you to all the Libtards.
Posted by: The Man from Athens at September 21, 2019 01:16 PM (QMwOT)
256
hubby is watching some documentary about Bill Gates & wife's philanthropy. Good grief the wife is annoying when she talks.
Posted by: vmom happy to have read a good book! at September 21, 2019 01:17 PM (+72t1)
257
"When I got my CCW they constantly stressed that if you are carrying you have to let stuff like getting cut off in traffic go. This guy thought it was a license to be a traffic enforcer."
While it appears on the video that the thug was intimidated by the brandishing of the weapon, the defender was ON THE GROUND, and the thug could have closed that distance in one second, and possibly disarmed him. He didn't know if there were other thugs behind him waiting to jump in (like they OFTEN do.) I would hope that I myself would not have taken that bad shot, but I'm not going to jail that guy for taking it!
While it appears on the video that the thug was intimidated by the brandishing of the weapon, the defender was ON THE GROUND, and the thug could have closed that distance in one second, and possibly disarmed him. He didn't know if there were other thugs behind him waiting to jump in (like they OFTEN do.) I would hope that I myself would not have taken that bad shot, but I'm not going to jail that guy for taking it!
Posted by: gp, Decaffeinated By Popular Demand at September 21, 2019 01:17 PM (mk9aG)
258
Jury Pool, sounds refreshing,but who am I to judge.
$9 a day to snooze in a comfy seat in an air conditioned room is doable.
GUILTY GUILTY GUILTY.............
$9 a day to snooze in a comfy seat in an air conditioned room is doable.
GUILTY GUILTY GUILTY.............
Posted by: saf at September 21, 2019 01:18 PM (5IHGB)
259
The Arc of History has determined that we will be ruled byred-haired, freckle-faced autistic teenage demons.
So Alfred E. Neuman
So Alfred E. Neuman
Posted by: MAC SOG'''' at September 21, 2019 01:18 PM (P4Pk9)
260
got called for the first review for the Holyland foundation case. they pulled in 500 in 2 groups to fill out questionnaire. I stated that it was clear in the Quran that monetary support for Holy warriors was required of a good Muslim. they told me I as not required for duty. what I thought was interesting, is that they pulled quite a few from the WACO area where the ATF/FBI just murdered women and children (Davidians). and these prosecutors expected love for the government.
Posted by: just do something at September 21, 2019 01:19 PM (0hOKG)
261
Been summoned to county court three times during my residence here in the great northeastern sprawl.
The first time I was empaneled in criminal court in a narcotics-distribution trial of a low-level pusher. We found him guilty after two days of deliberations.
The second time I never made it out of the jury-assembly room.
The third time was a close call, but I was one of the last few potential jurors to be dismissed.
In the criminal trial, the jurors - a real cross-section of society - did a very thoughtful job of considering the evidence. But the perp's public defender didn't exactly go all out defending his client.
One thing I will never understand about our justice system is that the jurors are not allowed to bring their professional expertise to the jury deliberations. I think that's exactly backwards. I want a doctor or an engineer to bring their expertise to the jury deliberations because that provides more information - not opinion, not testimony, but information - for the deliberations that we would otherwise have had. I find the argument (see https://tinyurl.com/yyx78znc ) that experts in the jury room turn the jurors into advocates for one side or the other to be completely specious.
The first time I was empaneled in criminal court in a narcotics-distribution trial of a low-level pusher. We found him guilty after two days of deliberations.
The second time I never made it out of the jury-assembly room.
The third time was a close call, but I was one of the last few potential jurors to be dismissed.
In the criminal trial, the jurors - a real cross-section of society - did a very thoughtful job of considering the evidence. But the perp's public defender didn't exactly go all out defending his client.
One thing I will never understand about our justice system is that the jurors are not allowed to bring their professional expertise to the jury deliberations. I think that's exactly backwards. I want a doctor or an engineer to bring their expertise to the jury deliberations because that provides more information - not opinion, not testimony, but information - for the deliberations that we would otherwise have had. I find the argument (see https://tinyurl.com/yyx78znc ) that experts in the jury room turn the jurors into advocates for one side or the other to be completely specious.
Posted by: crisis du jour at September 21, 2019 01:20 PM (qVX10)
Posted by: MAC SOG'''' at September 21, 2019 01:20 PM (P4Pk9)
263
Opie-oid he was an Opie-oid
Happier than you and me
Opie-oid he was an Opie-oid
And it determined what he could see
Opie-oid he was an Opie-oid
Happier than you and me
Opie-oid he was an Opie-oid
And it determined what he could see
Posted by: Bertram Cabot, Jr. at September 21, 2019 01:21 PM (aKsyK)
264
Isaiah Washington
Sorry Christians, but Bitch Asses do Bitch Ass shit & it's EXHAUSTING. I'm shocked at the level of Beta Male Bitch Asses actually in charge of things today. It's profoundly astonishing, but hey, this is one Alpha Male that isn't going to "kiss the ring" and you shouldn't either.
*******
I think he has been Red Pilled
Isaiah Washington
Sorry Christians, but Bitch Asses do Bitch Ass shit & it's EXHAUSTING. I'm shocked at the level of Beta Male Bitch Asses actually in charge of things today. It's profoundly astonishing, but hey, this is one Alpha Male that isn't going to "kiss the ring" and you shouldn't either.
*******
I think he has been Red Pilled
Posted by: Deep State is in Deep Shit at September 21, 2019 01:21 PM (BqBId)
265
Our daughters cut classes yesterday to shame you wingnut deniers. *hic*
Posted by: Wine Moms at September 21, 2019 01:22 PM (EgshT)
266
Same here every time. I was told by a state prosecutor who I was
dealing with on another matter that he would NEVER have an Engineer on a
jury. Not emotionally vulnerable or something like that.
=====
Engineer kid was called (just started a job last year) and was actually disappointed because she was dismissed immediately. I told her to be thankful because very few cases that make it to a jury are clear-cut.
Same here every time. I was told by a state prosecutor who I was
dealing with on another matter that he would NEVER have an Engineer on a
jury. Not emotionally vulnerable or something like that.
=====
Engineer kid was called (just started a job last year) and was actually disappointed because she was dismissed immediately. I told her to be thankful because very few cases that make it to a jury are clear-cut.
Posted by: mustbequantum at September 21, 2019 01:23 PM (MIKMs)
267
I tend to get called for jury service a lot. No idea why. Never actually served on a jury, though. Every time I mention either that A. I work in media or B. I have multiple relatives in law enforcement, you can see the attorneys' eyes glaze over and I inevitably get dismissed.
One time I got called for jury service in a fairly big civil case and they asked me how I felt about awarding damages and I flat out told the defense lawyer there was no way I would ever vote to award eleventy bazillion-jazillion dollars or whatever for "pain and suffering." That got me struck really damn quick - though not as quickly as the guy next to me, who told them he was a business owner and he hated all lawyers.
They asked him why and he launched on a rant about how he'd been in business for 35 years and had nothing but endless legal headaches and how he'd paid millions of dollars to lawyers to fight off bullshit lawsuits. It got a lot of laughs from everyone except the lawyers, and he was the first guy struck from the pool.
One time I got called for jury service in a fairly big civil case and they asked me how I felt about awarding damages and I flat out told the defense lawyer there was no way I would ever vote to award eleventy bazillion-jazillion dollars or whatever for "pain and suffering." That got me struck really damn quick - though not as quickly as the guy next to me, who told them he was a business owner and he hated all lawyers.
They asked him why and he launched on a rant about how he'd been in business for 35 years and had nothing but endless legal headaches and how he'd paid millions of dollars to lawyers to fight off bullshit lawsuits. It got a lot of laughs from everyone except the lawyers, and he was the first guy struck from the pool.
Posted by: Ex-liberal at September 21, 2019 01:24 PM (20v0t)
268
Jury duty in my city is not very complicated. If you're called downtown, there's no parking. I have someone who can drive me, so it's not terrible, but it's a real pain in the butt. Security-wise, I don't remember it being difficult. You pass through before you go up to the waiting room. If you're lucky, you just read a book and go home, If not, you get called in a group to a courtroom.
I've only had to go down to the court once. Every other time that I've been up, I just called in the night before and was told not to show up. The one time I did have to go in, I was selected for a trial. It was a pretty simple process, although I didn't think I'd get picked, so I was surprised. Especially after I was made the foreman due to the fact that I was the only one who took notes and the other juror who originally volunteered for the position decided I was better at herding cats...
Mostly, after the whole thing, I was surprised at the ineptitude of both sides of the court - the prosecution and the defense (mostly on the defense side, though). Basically, if the defense wasn't such a piece of shit at the job, we'd have rendered a different verdict. But, no, the defense kept harping on some SJW nonsense that had no basis in reality and basically railroaded the defendant right at the end. I kind of wonder if the prosecution knew what was going to happen and that's why their case was presented in a quarter of the time it took the defense to present theirs.
I've only had to go down to the court once. Every other time that I've been up, I just called in the night before and was told not to show up. The one time I did have to go in, I was selected for a trial. It was a pretty simple process, although I didn't think I'd get picked, so I was surprised. Especially after I was made the foreman due to the fact that I was the only one who took notes and the other juror who originally volunteered for the position decided I was better at herding cats...
Mostly, after the whole thing, I was surprised at the ineptitude of both sides of the court - the prosecution and the defense (mostly on the defense side, though). Basically, if the defense wasn't such a piece of shit at the job, we'd have rendered a different verdict. But, no, the defense kept harping on some SJW nonsense that had no basis in reality and basically railroaded the defendant right at the end. I kind of wonder if the prosecution knew what was going to happen and that's why their case was presented in a quarter of the time it took the defense to present theirs.
Posted by: soulpile at September 21, 2019 01:24 PM (rwZk1)
269
Re: the Florida CCW shooter
Be sure you know the whole context. The shooter had prior incidents of pulling his gun on people who irritated him.
https://tinyurl.com/y5l7urwb
Similar to Chuck C's experience, my husband's CCW instructor emphasized repeatedly letting things slide rather than drawing your weapon. Drejka may have a concealed carry permit, but he's a dreadful representative.
Be sure you know the whole context. The shooter had prior incidents of pulling his gun on people who irritated him.
https://tinyurl.com/y5l7urwb
Similar to Chuck C's experience, my husband's CCW instructor emphasized repeatedly letting things slide rather than drawing your weapon. Drejka may have a concealed carry permit, but he's a dreadful representative.
Posted by: Art Rondelet of Malmsey at September 21, 2019 01:25 PM (S+f+m)
270
I'm an engineer. The second lawyers hear that they fight to remove me from the selection. Defense and prosecution. Happens everytime. One time no one was left and they agreed reluctantly to have me only as an alternate.
Posted by: bananaDream at September 21, 2019 01:26 PM (+96dr)
271
https://amgreatness.com
/2019/09/20/shamelessness-and-ignorance-unlimited/
Angelo Codevilla take on the current whistleblower
/2019/09/20/shamelessness-and-ignorance-unlimited/
Angelo Codevilla take on the current whistleblower
Posted by: Skip at September 21, 2019 01:26 PM (ZCEU2)
272
"I hope that asshole gets shanked in prison and dies painfully." Clearly there is a wide wide gulf between your perception of justice and mine.
"This guy thought [his CCW] was a license to be a traffic enforcer." Maybe he was just annoyed by people flouting the law, regardless of whether he was a carrier or not. Have you considered that? Is it now WRONG for a citizen to call out a scofflaw? The woman was in NO danger, sitting in her car with the door shut. The carrier did NOT brandish his gun until AFTER he was attacked. I think you are full of shit.
"This guy thought [his CCW] was a license to be a traffic enforcer." Maybe he was just annoyed by people flouting the law, regardless of whether he was a carrier or not. Have you considered that? Is it now WRONG for a citizen to call out a scofflaw? The woman was in NO danger, sitting in her car with the door shut. The carrier did NOT brandish his gun until AFTER he was attacked. I think you are full of shit.
Posted by: gp, Decaffeinated By Popular Demand at September 21, 2019 01:26 PM (mk9aG)
273
A black female law student and I used to go out to lunch together, as we were apparently the only two people paid any attention to the evidence.
Posted by: Deplorable Jay Guevara
=======
You didn't talk about the case at lunch, did you? On the one case I ever sat on, I shared the lunch break with a fellow juror and we didn't say a word about the case. Just work, family, blah blah.
A black female law student and I used to go out to lunch together, as we were apparently the only two people paid any attention to the evidence.
Posted by: Deplorable Jay Guevara
=======
You didn't talk about the case at lunch, did you? On the one case I ever sat on, I shared the lunch break with a fellow juror and we didn't say a word about the case. Just work, family, blah blah.
Posted by: Blonde Morticia at September 21, 2019 01:27 PM (13CQC)
274
I don't understand why jurors don't get paid more
Posted by: vmom happy to have read a good book! at September 21, 2019 01:28 PM (+72t1)
275
Similar to Chuck C's experience, my husband's CCW instructor emphasized repeatedly letting things slide rather than drawing your weapon. Drejka may have a concealed carry permit, but he's a dreadful representative.
Posted by: Art Rondelet of Malmsey at September 21, 2019 01:25 PM (S+f+m)
Yup....I look at it as a win-win. Baby daddy thug dead, Ahole Drejka in the joint.
The lesson here is to avoid convenience stores as they tend to attract these kinds of low lifes and worse.
Posted by: Art Rondelet of Malmsey at September 21, 2019 01:25 PM (S+f+m)
Yup....I look at it as a win-win. Baby daddy thug dead, Ahole Drejka in the joint.
The lesson here is to avoid convenience stores as they tend to attract these kinds of low lifes and worse.
Posted by: Hairyback Guy at September 21, 2019 01:29 PM (Z+IKu)
276
Once got called three times in a year:
1. End of Harris County jury duty cycle
2. City of Houston
3. Start of Harris County jury duty cycle
Once got called three times in a year:
1. End of Harris County jury duty cycle
2. City of Houston
3. Start of Harris County jury duty cycle
Posted by: Hadrian the Seventh at September 21, 2019 01:30 PM (WoNFz)
277
The answer to that last question, like most, is the ancient Greeks.
Al "the Historian" Sharpton: Them Greek homos stole our jury duty!!!
The answer to that last question, like most, is the ancient Greeks.
Al "the Historian" Sharpton: Them Greek homos stole our jury duty!!!
Posted by: TheQuietMan at September 21, 2019 01:30 PM (WCmdX)
278
Very different jury experiences.
First was best. Attempted murder case. DC, 4 white people, rest black [mostly womean, 3Os-4Os]. Two young white people roadblocked the attempted murder charge [victim had been shot 11-12 times, survived], stupidly - unbelievably dramatic real-life example of dumb race guilt causing damage. Black women were livid, and hilarious, in attempting to nudge the dumb white kids to "guilty". Was OK, guilty on 3 other counts, prosecutors said that was enough to get him off the street.
Power of the judge, and the jury, were impressive takeaways - prosecutors and defense bowing/scraping.
Dismissed from [enormous] jury pool for 2nd Microsoft anti-trust case, based on mostly-true reason that I had extensive travel impending.
Dismissed from two medical malpractice juries during voir dire after explaining I don't find a courtroom or juries a suitable forum for deciding such claims.
Voir dire should be reduced greatly, and maybe only the judge should be allowed to remove people, based on prosecution/defense questioning. Juries should not be engineered.
First was best. Attempted murder case. DC, 4 white people, rest black [mostly womean, 3Os-4Os]. Two young white people roadblocked the attempted murder charge [victim had been shot 11-12 times, survived], stupidly - unbelievably dramatic real-life example of dumb race guilt causing damage. Black women were livid, and hilarious, in attempting to nudge the dumb white kids to "guilty". Was OK, guilty on 3 other counts, prosecutors said that was enough to get him off the street.
Power of the judge, and the jury, were impressive takeaways - prosecutors and defense bowing/scraping.
Dismissed from [enormous] jury pool for 2nd Microsoft anti-trust case, based on mostly-true reason that I had extensive travel impending.
Dismissed from two medical malpractice juries during voir dire after explaining I don't find a courtroom or juries a suitable forum for deciding such claims.
Voir dire should be reduced greatly, and maybe only the judge should be allowed to remove people, based on prosecution/defense questioning. Juries should not be engineered.
Posted by: rhomboid at September 21, 2019 01:31 PM (QDnY+)
279
Pled my way out of a recent jury by mentioning I am a sole caretaker of 90 and 86 year old parents. Judge grilled me and asked if I could pay for care (on retired pay) or coopt my working siblings with their vacation time. Finally got him with mom's cancer and dad's diabetes.
They really wanted me on the jury. Little did they know I have hung all previous juries I have served on. I REALLY require evidence, not they said, they said evidence.
They really wanted me on the jury. Little did they know I have hung all previous juries I have served on. I REALLY require evidence, not they said, they said evidence.
Posted by: Headless Body of Agnew at September 21, 2019 01:31 PM (mvUP9)
280
"my husband's CCW instructor emphasized repeatedly letting things slide rather than drawing your weapon."
YES, YES, situational awareness! I AGREE! I ALWAYS stay away from trouble. But I would most certainly have DRAWN my weapon after being shoved to the ground!! The shoot is the question here, not the draw!
I would nullify, and let somebody else convict the guy. I would refuse to find the guy guilty.
YES, YES, situational awareness! I AGREE! I ALWAYS stay away from trouble. But I would most certainly have DRAWN my weapon after being shoved to the ground!! The shoot is the question here, not the draw!
I would nullify, and let somebody else convict the guy. I would refuse to find the guy guilty.
Posted by: gp, Decaffeinated By Popular Demand at September 21, 2019 01:31 PM (mk9aG)
281
I've been kicked off every jury panel that I was assigned to. Defense attorneys generally don't like engineers, but my favorite release occurred after the defendant gave an impassioned speech how his rights were being violated by both prosecutor and defense attorney alike. After he was hauled away by the bailiffs, the judge asked:
"Are there any jurors who cannot forget what they just heard?" I raised my hand and indicated that I was paying very close attention to everything being said because I thought I was supposed to. Kicked shortly after that.
"Are there any jurors who cannot forget what they just heard?" I raised my hand and indicated that I was paying very close attention to everything being said because I thought I was supposed to. Kicked shortly after that.
Posted by: 40 miles north at September 21, 2019 01:31 PM (o2vOl)
282
Once got called three times in a year:
1. End of Harris County jury duty cycle
2. City of Houston
3. Start of Harris County jury duty cycle
Posted by: Hadrian the Seventh at September 21, 2019 01:30 PM (WoNFz)
I think here, once you've been called, they can't call you again for 4 years. Something like that.
1. End of Harris County jury duty cycle
2. City of Houston
3. Start of Harris County jury duty cycle
Posted by: Hadrian the Seventh at September 21, 2019 01:30 PM (WoNFz)
I think here, once you've been called, they can't call you again for 4 years. Something like that.
Posted by: grammie winger at September 21, 2019 01:31 PM (lwiT4)
283
Voir dire should be reduced greatly, and maybe only the judge should be allowed to remove people, based on prosecution/defense questioning. Juries should not be engineered.
Posted by: rhomboid
That would destroy the premise of "Bull", so, no.
Voir dire should be reduced greatly, and maybe only the judge should be allowed to remove people, based on prosecution/defense questioning. Juries should not be engineered.
Posted by: rhomboid
That would destroy the premise of "Bull", so, no.
Posted by: Hadrian the Seventh at September 21, 2019 01:33 PM (WoNFz)
284
I don't understand why jurors don't get paid more
=====
Correct me if I'm wrong here, but I think minimum wage is the benchmark.
=====
Correct me if I'm wrong here, but I think minimum wage is the benchmark.
Posted by: mustbequantum at September 21, 2019 01:34 PM (MIKMs)
285
Why isnt jury duty my video conference?
Posted by: Jean at September 21, 2019 01:34 PM (B7KlG)
286
My sole experience of serving on a jury told me public perception ofthe intelligence of lawyers is grossly exaggerated.
My sole experience of serving on a jury told me public perception ofthe intelligence of lawyers is grossly exaggerated.
Posted by: Hadrian the Seventh at September 21, 2019 01:35 PM (WoNFz)
287
Never called, Never served... 54yrs old! I have no idea what the fuss is over..
Posted by: catman (Instant Coffee is really pretty good!)) at September 21, 2019 01:36 PM (4HMlb)
288
off sock
Posted by: catman at September 21, 2019 01:37 PM (4HMlb)
289
Voir dire should be two questions.
Do you know the defendant or plaintiff?
Do you know either lawyers?
Voir dire should be two questions.
Do you know the defendant or plaintiff?
Do you know either lawyers?
Posted by: Hadrian the Seventh at September 21, 2019 01:38 PM (WoNFz)
290
159 "I'm running because our country is at a moment of truth," Kennedy told supporters in the email. "Donald Trump has forced a long overdue reckoning in America. And how we respond will say everything about who we are."
Posted by: Bertram Cabot, Jr. at September 21, 2019 12:26 PM (aKsyK)
---
It would be a more impressive statement if he'd zipped up his fly first.
hi
159 "I'm running because our country is at a moment of truth," Kennedy told supporters in the email. "Donald Trump has forced a long overdue reckoning in America. And how we respond will say everything about who we are."
Posted by: Bertram Cabot, Jr. at September 21, 2019 12:26 PM (aKsyK)
---
It would be a more impressive statement if he'd zipped up his fly first.
hi
Posted by: Semi-Literate Thug at September 21, 2019 01:39 PM (t5m5e)
291
About 6 months ago I got summoned for jury duty. It not being my first time getting a summons here in SoCal, I figured I'd go on Monday (you have the option to just pick a day if you schedule it) and get it over with.
Big mistake.
Apparently everyone picks Monday if they think to schedule it, so the jury room was packed. Luckily I wasn't there long because I got sent to a courtroom to fill out a pool almost immediately.
Then the real fun began.
It was a jury for a murder trial. Once they went through all the people they could excuse for hardship reasons, which did not include me because my employer pays me for serving, they immediately said we were all excused fort eh day but had to come back tomorrow for the start of Voir Dire because they had to go through 3 pools to get enough to start the process because they were expecting a 3 week trial. I sat there in that stupid courtroom for two more days, without being asked a single question, until they finally had enough for the jury. And all along I knew I would never be on the jury, because my personal feelings about self-defense do not match CA law, and I don't have any problem voting against CA law if I think I should.
But, hey, I got a 3 day paid vacay, even if it was the most boring 3 days of my life.
Big mistake.
Apparently everyone picks Monday if they think to schedule it, so the jury room was packed. Luckily I wasn't there long because I got sent to a courtroom to fill out a pool almost immediately.
Then the real fun began.
It was a jury for a murder trial. Once they went through all the people they could excuse for hardship reasons, which did not include me because my employer pays me for serving, they immediately said we were all excused fort eh day but had to come back tomorrow for the start of Voir Dire because they had to go through 3 pools to get enough to start the process because they were expecting a 3 week trial. I sat there in that stupid courtroom for two more days, without being asked a single question, until they finally had enough for the jury. And all along I knew I would never be on the jury, because my personal feelings about self-defense do not match CA law, and I don't have any problem voting against CA law if I think I should.
But, hey, I got a 3 day paid vacay, even if it was the most boring 3 days of my life.
Posted by: Wyfaggro at September 21, 2019 01:39 PM (b9Rab)
292
In the attempted murder case, it was amazing how little evidence there was, but it was persuasive. I remember the whole thing was out of Bonfire of the Vanities - even a "crack ho" witness who was key to the case. A single shell casing [2 shooters, one whose semi jammed .... ha!].
But all jurors were troubled by what we couldn't find out. Didn't affect the reasonable doubt issue for the charges, but all were dissatisfied we couldn't get a few specific bits of info.
But all jurors were troubled by what we couldn't find out. Didn't affect the reasonable doubt issue for the charges, but all were dissatisfied we couldn't get a few specific bits of info.
Posted by: rhomboid at September 21, 2019 01:41 PM (QDnY+)
293
Correct me if I'm wrong here, but I think minimum wage is the benchmark.
Posted by: mustbequantum at September 21, 2019 01:34 PM (MIKMs)
Pennsylvania's minimum wage is $7.25/ hour
Pennsylvania jurors get $9/ day
wondering what the formula is...
Posted by: mustbequantum at September 21, 2019 01:34 PM (MIKMs)
Pennsylvania's minimum wage is $7.25/ hour
Pennsylvania jurors get $9/ day
wondering what the formula is...
Posted by: vmom happy to have read a good book! at September 21, 2019 01:42 PM (+72t1)
294
There's no more Kennedy "glamour." It's all gone.
JFK was elected in 1960, a lifetime ago. 60 years is the same stretch of time between the end of the Civil War and 1925.
If the Democrats believe they can still get by on that manufactured Camelot (and they do), they're in for a rude awakening.
JFK was elected in 1960, a lifetime ago. 60 years is the same stretch of time between the end of the Civil War and 1925.
If the Democrats believe they can still get by on that manufactured Camelot (and they do), they're in for a rude awakening.
Posted by: JoeF. at September 21, 2019 01:43 PM (NFEMn)
295
If the Democrats believe they can still get by on that manufactured Camelot (and they do), they're in for a rude awakening.
Posted by: JoeF.
======
Really? What do you want to bed Joe K III gets elected without even trying?
If the Democrats believe they can still get by on that manufactured Camelot (and they do), they're in for a rude awakening.
Posted by: JoeF.
======
Really? What do you want to bed Joe K III gets elected without even trying?
Posted by: Blonde Morticia at September 21, 2019 01:44 PM (13CQC)
296
It is $9 buck a day.Minimum wage would be $9 an hour,,,,you are struck off get out the pool NOW or I'll sic Biden on ya.
Posted by: saf at September 21, 2019 01:44 PM (5IHGB)
297
Melania has real glamour
Posted by: vmom happy to have read a good book! at September 21, 2019 01:45 PM (+72t1)
298
Really? What do you want to bed Joe K III gets elected without even trying?
Posted by: Blonde Morticia at September 21, 2019 01:44 PM (13CQC)
I meant for a eventual presidential run--and he and the Dems are planning on that--but I hit "post" too soon.
Yes, he'll win this election.
Posted by: Blonde Morticia at September 21, 2019 01:44 PM (13CQC)
I meant for a eventual presidential run--and he and the Dems are planning on that--but I hit "post" too soon.
Yes, he'll win this election.
Posted by: JoeF. at September 21, 2019 01:45 PM (NFEMn)
299
This post still on top? Huh. Maybe I can bewillow it here.
Was chosen for jury duty in a case where an elderly gent (whose age then I probably am now) was suing Goodwill because he said some bicycles on a table fell over on him.
He brought to court a VCR, TV set (bulky CRT), some other stuff, and himself for a lawyer. I thought: This should be good.
Goodwill's shark hardly let old dude say anything without some procedural objection. No, you can't use your VCR and TV. No, you can't this or that. And so on. Cassius Clay versus Bambi - horrible slaughter.
Case dismissed in less than an hour.
Driving home, I saw the old guy trudging down the street, pulling a little Red Flyer wagon, with the VCR, TV, etc. Pretty sad.
Was chosen for jury duty in a case where an elderly gent (whose age then I probably am now) was suing Goodwill because he said some bicycles on a table fell over on him.
He brought to court a VCR, TV set (bulky CRT), some other stuff, and himself for a lawyer. I thought: This should be good.
Goodwill's shark hardly let old dude say anything without some procedural objection. No, you can't use your VCR and TV. No, you can't this or that. And so on. Cassius Clay versus Bambi - horrible slaughter.
Case dismissed in less than an hour.
Driving home, I saw the old guy trudging down the street, pulling a little Red Flyer wagon, with the VCR, TV, etc. Pretty sad.
Posted by: mindful webworker - nullificationary at September 21, 2019 01:47 PM (MZVOx)
300
In terms of history, that referenced article omitted about 1,000 years of development. It's true that the Ancient Athenians used mass pools of citizens for everything, but obviously this was so unwieldy that it died out completely at that time. In Roman times, judgement had gone back to the default position, and the local ruler, or someone designated by him, presided over cases and made all important rulings. (Even Henry II of England still presided over the most important legal cases of his day) The great Roman Innovation was to allow Advocates (ad - vocare, "to speak for") on the part of both the prosecution and defense, which no one else had done before.
But OUR jury system owes its beginnings mainly to the Saxons, always an extremely independent people who were loathe to allow any one man to have power over them. They had kings, but their kings were selected by a group of nobles and could be unselected. The Saxons were the ones who insisted that no single Judge could pass sentence on any of them, and instead they would only submit to being judged by a groups of their equals. (it wasn't always 12 in the beginning, but it was always a group of equals)
So our Jury systems have come down to us from our cultural ancestors who, although they were called "barbarians", have ALWAYS insisted on never being subject to the power of any one man, and who always prized the power to rule themselves.
But OUR jury system owes its beginnings mainly to the Saxons, always an extremely independent people who were loathe to allow any one man to have power over them. They had kings, but their kings were selected by a group of nobles and could be unselected. The Saxons were the ones who insisted that no single Judge could pass sentence on any of them, and instead they would only submit to being judged by a groups of their equals. (it wasn't always 12 in the beginning, but it was always a group of equals)
So our Jury systems have come down to us from our cultural ancestors who, although they were called "barbarians", have ALWAYS insisted on never being subject to the power of any one man, and who always prized the power to rule themselves.
Posted by: Tom Servo at September 21, 2019 01:48 PM (trdmm)
301
Codevilla piece is good, just long form of what many of us instantly observed about the ridiculous intel "whistleblower" crap. Haven't finished yet, dunno if he gets into the very disturbing question of WTF is the intel IG doing "investigating" presidential foreign policy making??
Another reminder that the system is unlikely to work if we don't have an opposition political party, and will derail dramatically when we have only two parties, all of one and most of another teaming up to dynamite the system in order to block action by a president.
Another reminder that the system is unlikely to work if we don't have an opposition political party, and will derail dramatically when we have only two parties, all of one and most of another teaming up to dynamite the system in order to block action by a president.
Posted by: rhomboid at September 21, 2019 01:48 PM (QDnY+)
302
U.S. Rep. Joe Kennedy III formally declared his candidacy for the U.S. Senate on Saturday, becoming the first member of the Kennedy political dynasty to bid for the upper chamber of Congress since Edward M. Kennedy in 1962.
Gotta kill a woman first, Joe.
U.S. Rep. Joe Kennedy III formally declared his candidacy for the U.S. Senate on Saturday, becoming the first member of the Kennedy political dynasty to bid for the upper chamber of Congress since Edward M. Kennedy in 1962.
Gotta kill a woman first, Joe.
Posted by: Hadrian the Seventh at September 21, 2019 01:49 PM (WoNFz)
303
I was called for jury duty --and reported in 1982. I was rejected because my sister worked at the Courthouse.
After that, every time I was called, I gave my sister the summons and it was "taken care of."
She retired last year and I don't know what I'll do the next time I get called.
After that, every time I was called, I gave my sister the summons and it was "taken care of."
She retired last year and I don't know what I'll do the next time I get called.
Posted by: JoeF. at September 21, 2019 01:50 PM (NFEMn)
304
There I was, face to face with Corn Pop's cousin: Caramel Corn Pop...
Posted by: Joe Biden at September 21, 2019 01:50 PM (o2vOl)
305
KT, no snark here; serious question:
>>>One person near me in line outside the building I would not have wanted on a jury.
Would some fellow citizens want that person on a jury? A jury of some people's peers, just not yours?
>>>One person near me in line outside the building I would not have wanted on a jury.
Would some fellow citizens want that person on a jury? A jury of some people's peers, just not yours?
Posted by: m at September 21, 2019 01:52 PM (hnjoD)
306
Several calls for just duty. So far, never served.
Called for a civil case. Bailiff leading us to court room when very suddenly, the screaming started. Shortly thereafter, a crying woman burst out of the room.
The jury pool had quite the show. Family came out to talk to her, lawyers came out to talk to family and her. More yelling in the courtroom, etc.
Finally the whole mess quiets down.
Long wait.
Everybody leaves.
Jury pool enters and Judge explains due to the importance of a clean, unbiased start to the trial, and since none of us can unsee what just happened, we are all dismissed.
Called for a civil case. Bailiff leading us to court room when very suddenly, the screaming started. Shortly thereafter, a crying woman burst out of the room.
The jury pool had quite the show. Family came out to talk to her, lawyers came out to talk to family and her. More yelling in the courtroom, etc.
Finally the whole mess quiets down.
Long wait.
Everybody leaves.
Jury pool enters and Judge explains due to the importance of a clean, unbiased start to the trial, and since none of us can unsee what just happened, we are all dismissed.
Posted by: Adriane the Mail Order Writing Course Critic ... at September 21, 2019 01:52 PM (LPnfS)
307
You didn't talk about the case at lunch, did you? On the one case I ever sat on, I shared the lunch break with a fellow juror and we didn't say a word about the case. Just work, family, blah blah.
Posted by: Blonde Morticia at September 21, 2019 01:27 PM (13CQC)
In honesty, yeah we did. We weren't supposed to, but we did.
Posted by: Blonde Morticia at September 21, 2019 01:27 PM (13CQC)
In honesty, yeah we did. We weren't supposed to, but we did.
Posted by: Deplorable Jay Guevara at September 21, 2019 01:52 PM (A68IW)
Posted by: 40 miles north at September 21, 2019 01:53 PM (o2vOl)
309
There I was, face to face with Corn Pop's cousin: Caramel Corn Pop...
Posted by: Joe Biden at September 21, 2019 01:50 PM (o2vOl)
And his parents, Ma and Kettle Pop Corn--and his drug-dealing little brother, Jimmy Crack....
Posted by: Joe Biden at September 21, 2019 01:50 PM (o2vOl)
And his parents, Ma and Kettle Pop Corn--and his drug-dealing little brother, Jimmy Crack....
Posted by: Joe Biden at September 21, 2019 01:54 PM (NFEMn)
310
Was called three times, ended up on only one, a civil trial with six jurors. The plaintiff's lawyer was either incompetent or edging into senility or both. The plaintiff had walked from behind a building into the path of a taxi moving slowly in an alley (admitted by the plaintiff). We spent most of the time in the jury room chatting so it wouldn't be clear we'd already decided in the first ten minutes against the plaintiff.
The second time I got ripped up one side and down the other by the prosecutor and then tossed because I dared to say I didn't agree with mandatory sentences. It was probably just as well; the plaintiff came in with two friends, all wearing nice suits and lookin' fine. The defendant was wearing rumpled shorts and a tshirt with no one but his attorney. What it looked like was the plaintiff was a bully who had been popped one when his target's last nerve snapped. The prosecutor seemed to think a bloody mouth with maybe a tooth lost was the most horrible thing ever. I was surprised by the lack of any weapons.
The second time I got ripped up one side and down the other by the prosecutor and then tossed because I dared to say I didn't agree with mandatory sentences. It was probably just as well; the plaintiff came in with two friends, all wearing nice suits and lookin' fine. The defendant was wearing rumpled shorts and a tshirt with no one but his attorney. What it looked like was the plaintiff was a bully who had been popped one when his target's last nerve snapped. The prosecutor seemed to think a bloody mouth with maybe a tooth lost was the most horrible thing ever. I was surprised by the lack of any weapons.
Posted by: Lirio100 at September 21, 2019 01:54 PM (JK7Jw)
311
>> 305 KT, no snark here; serious question:
>> Would some fellow citizens want that person on a jury?
>> A jury of some people's peers, just not yours?
Oh look: A concern troll.
>> Would some fellow citizens want that person on a jury?
>> A jury of some people's peers, just not yours?
Oh look: A concern troll.
Posted by: 40 miles north at September 21, 2019 01:54 PM (o2vOl)
312
From a good ways upthread...
"S. Dakota is a well run state."
Unless you speak to tourism and tell them you're looking for a fairly low traffick lake you can rent a small boat and cabin on to do some yellow perch and walleye fishing on.
Then you get sent a package of booklets about nothing but big lodges and hotels.
"S. Dakota is a well run state."
Unless you speak to tourism and tell them you're looking for a fairly low traffick lake you can rent a small boat and cabin on to do some yellow perch and walleye fishing on.
Then you get sent a package of booklets about nothing but big lodges and hotels.
Posted by: teej at September 21, 2019 01:54 PM (EVeeU)
313
Garden NOOD is up
Posted by: Skip at September 21, 2019 01:57 PM (ZCEU2)
Posted by: Soothsayer, very senile at September 21, 2019 01:58 PM (Baq/1)
315
There's an old Burt Reynolds movie on tv that I've never seen: Shamus.
-------
Is Burt hunting killer whales in that one??
-------
Is Burt hunting killer whales in that one??
Posted by: andycanuck at September 21, 2019 01:59 PM (Dh1wo)
Posted by: Soothsayer, very senile at September 21, 2019 02:00 PM (Baq/1)
317
My father has always been a big law and order man, and I was really proud of him on the one serious jury he was on. A man was accused of assaulting a women and her child at a park, at first glance it seemed like a slam dunk conviction. But he told me that as the evidence was presented, it became clear to him that the accused, who had no criminal record, was deaf, and who had a bad speech impediment, had in fact been the victim of the incident (which turned out to be much more complicated than it appeared) and that no one in the police department had paid much attention to anything he tried to say because his communication abilities were so impaired. (the accuser was cute, a fast talker, and in his opinion quite manipulative) He eventually convinced his jury to find the man innocent.
Posted by: Tom Servo at September 21, 2019 02:03 PM (trdmm)
318
Codevilla's piece is outstanding in that it notes how the outrageous unconstitutional behavior of individuals and institutions today, or their confidence that they can do this crap with impunity, relies on ignorance and apathy in the public.
Posted by: rhomboid at September 21, 2019 02:03 PM (QDnY+)
319
I think Dianne Cannon is in this movie.
I think Dianne Cannon is in this movie.
Posted by: Soothsayer, very senile at September 21, 2019 02:10 PM (Baq/1)
320
Going for jury duty has always been rather straightforward for me. I take mass transit, which is a 90 minute haul. If I drove I could expect to get towed or pay $50+ for parking. Getting in is usually just walking through, but may be a 5 minute line, and rarely a 15 minute line.
Way back when panel selection was ridiculous. I spent three days sitting around the first time, before getting selected for a pool, then another day waiting to get empaneled for voir dire, being rejected, then another day before being dismissed after a week of reading.
The last two times have been close to a vacation. Penultimate time I was selected for a pool within an hour, send home for the voir dire the next day, empaneled and selected and sent home by lunch, skip a day, come in Thursday and told to wait for an hour, and they settled. Last time was selected for a pool 5 minutes after attendance, empaneled in the first group, then 1-2-3 reasons I would be biased - for both sides! Back to the waiting room and dismissed 15 minutes later.
In the past I was on the jury for a civil case for a guy who lives a block away from in a major housing complex. Never heard or saw him before, and I expected to go home but they kept me.
I was an alternate on a criminal case. I thought it was open and shut for reasonable doubt. No idea what the rest of the jury thought. Funniest part was the ADA looked like James Woods and the PD looked like Penn Jillette.
Way back when panel selection was ridiculous. I spent three days sitting around the first time, before getting selected for a pool, then another day waiting to get empaneled for voir dire, being rejected, then another day before being dismissed after a week of reading.
The last two times have been close to a vacation. Penultimate time I was selected for a pool within an hour, send home for the voir dire the next day, empaneled and selected and sent home by lunch, skip a day, come in Thursday and told to wait for an hour, and they settled. Last time was selected for a pool 5 minutes after attendance, empaneled in the first group, then 1-2-3 reasons I would be biased - for both sides! Back to the waiting room and dismissed 15 minutes later.
In the past I was on the jury for a civil case for a guy who lives a block away from in a major housing complex. Never heard or saw him before, and I expected to go home but they kept me.
I was an alternate on a criminal case. I thought it was open and shut for reasonable doubt. No idea what the rest of the jury thought. Funniest part was the ADA looked like James Woods and the PD looked like Penn Jillette.
Posted by: Sam at September 21, 2019 02:13 PM (ohyxL)
321
She retired last year and I don't know what I'll do the next time I get called.
Posted by: JoeF.
======
Serve.
She retired last year and I don't know what I'll do the next time I get called.
Posted by: JoeF.
======
Serve.
Posted by: Blonde Morticia at September 21, 2019 02:14 PM (13CQC)
322
I meant for a eventual presidential run--and he and the Dems are planning on that--but I hit "post" too soon.
Yes, he'll win this election.
Posted by: JoeF.
=======
Ah yes, the Kennedy presidency. That dream will never die, and with any luck it will never become a reality.
I meant for a eventual presidential run--and he and the Dems are planning on that--but I hit "post" too soon.
Yes, he'll win this election.
Posted by: JoeF.
=======
Ah yes, the Kennedy presidency. That dream will never die, and with any luck it will never become a reality.
Posted by: Blonde Morticia at September 21, 2019 02:16 PM (13CQC)
323
YES, YES, situational awareness! I AGREE! I ALWAYS stay away from trouble. But I would most certainly have DRAWN my weapon after being shoved to the ground!! The shoot is the question here, not the draw!
Posted by: gp, Decaffeinated By Popular Demand at September 21, 2019 01:31 PM
Earlier you commented the victim could close within one second. The Tueller drill is for reacting to a charge, drawing, aiming and firing. Idiot CCW already had the fun out and aimed. The victim was retreating (Why didn't he retreat faster? His wife/girlfriend is near a crazy asshole with a gun.)
I revise my earlier statement. I now hope idiot CCW gets shanked, doesnt die, and spends his 25 to life in extreme pain. It is assholes like him than give gun owners a bad name.
Also: "Have you considered that? Is it now WRONG for a citizen to call out a scofflaw? The woman was in NO danger, sitting in her car with the door shut. The carrier did NOT brandish his gun until AFTER he was attacked. I think you are full of shit"
He could have taken a picture of the plate and forwarded it to the proper authorities. As for "full of shit", fuck you.
Posted by: gp, Decaffeinated By Popular Demand at September 21, 2019 01:31 PM
Earlier you commented the victim could close within one second. The Tueller drill is for reacting to a charge, drawing, aiming and firing. Idiot CCW already had the fun out and aimed. The victim was retreating (Why didn't he retreat faster? His wife/girlfriend is near a crazy asshole with a gun.)
I revise my earlier statement. I now hope idiot CCW gets shanked, doesnt die, and spends his 25 to life in extreme pain. It is assholes like him than give gun owners a bad name.
Also: "Have you considered that? Is it now WRONG for a citizen to call out a scofflaw? The woman was in NO danger, sitting in her car with the door shut. The carrier did NOT brandish his gun until AFTER he was attacked. I think you are full of shit"
He could have taken a picture of the plate and forwarded it to the proper authorities. As for "full of shit", fuck you.
Posted by: Chuck C at September 21, 2019 02:19 PM (zCabI)
324
Went to county courthouse once for jury selection. Think it was a personal injury suit. Filled out questionnaire asking if I had ever been sued or part of any litigation. Answered, no.
During voire dire was asked if I had any personal bias in case. Stated that as business owner I was was part of many frivolous lawsuits from liars and cheats. Defense atty seemed pissed and asked why I didn't answer that way on questionnaire. I said because it was my corporation that was sued and not me personally.
Judge laughed and said "Don't you have a business to run?" After answering, yes, he dismissed me.
During voire dire was asked if I had any personal bias in case. Stated that as business owner I was was part of many frivolous lawsuits from liars and cheats. Defense atty seemed pissed and asked why I didn't answer that way on questionnaire. I said because it was my corporation that was sued and not me personally.
Judge laughed and said "Don't you have a business to run?" After answering, yes, he dismissed me.
Posted by: olddog in mo at September 21, 2019 02:21 PM (gzG43)
Posted by: mnw at September 21, 2019 02:24 PM (Cssks)
326
The secret of jury nullification is we don't talk about jury nullification.
Was about to go on vacation
When I got a notification
To judge fellow man
As best as we can
And maybe use nullification
I dunno... all three end in "cation." Is that kosher rhyming?
Was about to go on vacation
When I got a notification
To judge fellow man
As best as we can
And maybe use nullification
I dunno... all three end in "cation." Is that kosher rhyming?
Posted by: mindful webworker - nullificationary at September 21, 2019 02:30 PM (MZVOx)
327
Called several times. Best one was as an alternate juror. The plaintiff's attorney asked everyone else if they could give his client a fair hearing, but didn't ask me. Answer would have been "One look at that weasely bastard means I will burn in Hell before I will find for him", but they never asked.
Posted by: Andrew B at September 21, 2019 02:32 PM (sxNVv)
328
The last jury duty I got called for was for an illegal alien parasite caught dealing drugs. I got excused because of college classes, but the man sitting next to me told the judge that no way in hell would he sit on a jury for an illegal alien -- he got swept out of the courtroom before he could say another word. The illegal got a court appointed translator, a lawyer, and some other perks that I am sure a U.S. citizen would never get.
Posted by: AzDesertRat at September 21, 2019 02:36 PM (/2TXu)
329
still related to the courts I guess, from the previous thread, Huck calls Coulter a slimy liar for her accurate quote from Barrett. Also adds Barrett was just a law clerk then, so it doesn't really count (it was 1998, she was a law prof' I think). And claims that she was not referring to herself but to faithful Catholics (like herself).
But Barrett basically confirmed those statements when asked about them at her confirmation in 2017. And if a judge does not enforce a law (recusing instead) then they are deferring to the pope, not the constitution. She did say she could participate in some capital cases, maybe, under certain situations ... but at SCOTUS level, recusal is giving away a vote.
The left doesn't like her due to abortion mainly, but her statements about Pope JP being the standard for her not ordering an execution (which as I understand it, is rather new Catholic dogma, older Catholic dogma supported it) ... is a concern, especially with the new commie pope setting standards for the Catholic Church. I don't know if there are other areas of law she might need to "stand down" and let the liberals decide.
"She acknowledged that, if she were instead being nominated to serve as a federal trial judge, she "would not enter an order of execution," but she assured senators that she did not intend "as a blanket matter to recuse myself in capital cases if I am confirmed" and added that she had "fully participated in advising Justice Scalia in capital cases as a law clerk."
https://tinyurl.com/y3mv9b7z
But Barrett basically confirmed those statements when asked about them at her confirmation in 2017. And if a judge does not enforce a law (recusing instead) then they are deferring to the pope, not the constitution. She did say she could participate in some capital cases, maybe, under certain situations ... but at SCOTUS level, recusal is giving away a vote.
The left doesn't like her due to abortion mainly, but her statements about Pope JP being the standard for her not ordering an execution (which as I understand it, is rather new Catholic dogma, older Catholic dogma supported it) ... is a concern, especially with the new commie pope setting standards for the Catholic Church. I don't know if there are other areas of law she might need to "stand down" and let the liberals decide.
"She acknowledged that, if she were instead being nominated to serve as a federal trial judge, she "would not enter an order of execution," but she assured senators that she did not intend "as a blanket matter to recuse myself in capital cases if I am confirmed" and added that she had "fully participated in advising Justice Scalia in capital cases as a law clerk."
https://tinyurl.com/y3mv9b7z
Posted by: illiniwek at September 21, 2019 02:38 PM (Cus5s)
330
Black lady sitting next to me on jury selection told judge it was against her religious beliefs to be on jury. Said it was not her place to judge, only God's. She was dismissed.
Posted by: olddog in mo at September 21, 2019 02:42 PM (gzG43)
Posted by: irongrampa at September 21, 2019 02:43 PM (KATBx)
332
I don't trust Barrett just because she's female. We've never had a Margaret Thacher type on SCOTUS. Maybe if Coulter herself gets nominated, lol.
Posted by: kallisto at September 21, 2019 02:48 PM (knNho)
333
Juries are worthless without a society that has at least a certain amount of cohesion. Things are only going to get more stupid from here on out.
Posted by: lurker (the other one, but spelled with a P) at September 21, 2019 02:54 PM (67XdO)
334
Barrett has already opened a can of worms with her death penalty recusal plan. If she gets confirmed the leftys will insist she recuse from abortion cases, religious liberty cases, etc.
Posted by: kallisto at September 21, 2019 02:55 PM (knNho)
335
My week just gets better. Locked keys and cigs in car at grocery store.
Posted by: Infidel on ph at September 21, 2019 03:00 PM (MZVOx)
336
317 My father has always been a big law and order man, and I was really proud of him on the one serious jury he was on.
Posted by: Tom Servo at September 21, 2019 02:03 PM (trdmm)
Yay, dad.
Posted by: Tom Servo at September 21, 2019 02:03 PM (trdmm)
Yay, dad.
Posted by: m at September 21, 2019 03:38 PM (hnjoD)
337
I lost all respect for judges in the justice system the day I was summoned for jury duty in California last year.
I was selected to be asked questions in federal court for juror selection. The female judge introduced herself, babbled about how important the system was, blabla, and proceeded to "inform" us potential jurors where the bathroom was located and that we were free to use any bathroom we wanted. She made it a point to emphasize that part.
This was months after Trump had specifically repealed the twisted gender-neutral bathroom policy established by Hussein.
How could a judge pretend to disregard a rule that clearly was no longer valid? Partisan hacks in black (aka Obama/Clinton judges) truly are scum.
Add the FBI and the DOJ to the mix and it gets worse. The American justice system is deader than dead to me.
I was selected to be asked questions in federal court for juror selection. The female judge introduced herself, babbled about how important the system was, blabla, and proceeded to "inform" us potential jurors where the bathroom was located and that we were free to use any bathroom we wanted. She made it a point to emphasize that part.
This was months after Trump had specifically repealed the twisted gender-neutral bathroom policy established by Hussein.
How could a judge pretend to disregard a rule that clearly was no longer valid? Partisan hacks in black (aka Obama/Clinton judges) truly are scum.
Add the FBI and the DOJ to the mix and it gets worse. The American justice system is deader than dead to me.
Posted by: rongo at September 21, 2019 03:54 PM (2Cm6i)
338
Trials will get more political as Leftists have made everything politically. So it will be a matter of the political side then getting your jury to hear the case.
Posted by: Skip at September 21, 2019 03:54 PM (ZCEU2)
339
served once: illegal alien #1 and illegal alien #2 were drunk.
supposedly the guy hit the girl, but no one saw anything.
cops driving by see drunk disheveled woman on sidewalk, arrest drunk disheveled man.
we get called in to serve, in the town where i grew up, and, since no one wants to be foreman, i am.
woman recants/defends boyfriend on stand, tears her clothes, chews the inside of her mouth until blood comes out, and says she's like that all the time.
half the jurors wanted to convict, the other half, including me, said FTS.
judge made us argue it some more, but no one would budge.
total waste of time, and both of them should have been deported instead of put into the legal system.
i'll never be on another jury: the entire system is corrupt and they can all kiss my ass.
supposedly the guy hit the girl, but no one saw anything.
cops driving by see drunk disheveled woman on sidewalk, arrest drunk disheveled man.
we get called in to serve, in the town where i grew up, and, since no one wants to be foreman, i am.
woman recants/defends boyfriend on stand, tears her clothes, chews the inside of her mouth until blood comes out, and says she's like that all the time.
half the jurors wanted to convict, the other half, including me, said FTS.
judge made us argue it some more, but no one would budge.
total waste of time, and both of them should have been deported instead of put into the legal system.
i'll never be on another jury: the entire system is corrupt and they can all kiss my ass.
Posted by: redc1c4 at September 21, 2019 04:46 PM (woiyT)
340
Been summoned 3 times ins SC. Actually sat as a juror once. Traffic wreck. A couple with a young girl was rear ended by an out of town contractor. The husband was playing up a bad back every time we walked into the jury box. All of them were treated only by a chiropractor (after the ER trip) for 2 years. The chiropractor determined that they were disabled to varying degrees. We didn't buy that version. When we adjourned for the day, several of us arrived early the next morning to watch the couple enter the courthouse. The crossed a low lying ditch with ease. We decided the defendant had to pay all of the girl's medical bills and 6 months worth of bills for the adults. We reasoned after 6 months, if you aren't getting better you need to change doctors. No damages for any permanent injury claim either.
Posted by: The Guy at September 21, 2019 04:52 PM (B0t/V)
341
"Norse. Saxons. Common practice among northern Europeans.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_trial_by_jury_in_England
Greeks. Pfeh. They didn't have juries. They had mobs.
Posted by: Apostate at September 21, 2019 11:34 AM (hZ4Kc) "
I missed this when it was a new thread, but this is correct. Our jury system has nothing at all to do with the Greek legal system, or the Roman one for that matter. By the time the English system of law was more than, "My sword is bigger than yours," all of the classical legal systems were semi-barbarous at best, anyhow. The jury system we have came out of the Viking and Anglo-Saxon legal systems. The link Apostate provided is actually a good read.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_trial_by_jury_in_England
Greeks. Pfeh. They didn't have juries. They had mobs.
Posted by: Apostate at September 21, 2019 11:34 AM (hZ4Kc) "
I missed this when it was a new thread, but this is correct. Our jury system has nothing at all to do with the Greek legal system, or the Roman one for that matter. By the time the English system of law was more than, "My sword is bigger than yours," all of the classical legal systems were semi-barbarous at best, anyhow. The jury system we have came out of the Viking and Anglo-Saxon legal systems. The link Apostate provided is actually a good read.
Posted by: The Atom Bomb of Loving Kindness at September 21, 2019 04:55 PM (lXZ2r)
Posted by: 11B40 at September 21, 2019 04:58 PM (evgyj)
343
I missed this when it was a new thread, but this is correct. Our jury system has nothing at all to do with the Greek legal system, or the Roman one for that matter. By the time the English system of law was more than, "My sword is bigger than yours," all of the classical legal systems were semi-barbarous at best, anyhow. The jury system we have came out of the Viking and Anglo-Saxon legal systems. The link Apostate provided is actually a good read.
Posted by: The Atom Bomb of Loving Kindness at September 21, 2019 04:55 PM (lXZ2r)
But as was pointed out earlier, we can thank the Romans for lawyers and prosecutors.
Posted by: The Atom Bomb of Loving Kindness at September 21, 2019 04:55 PM (lXZ2r)
But as was pointed out earlier, we can thank the Romans for lawyers and prosecutors.
Posted by: Joe Biden at September 21, 2019 05:22 PM (NFEMn)
344
Smart, is a recessive gene in the Kennedy pool.
Posted by: Always Late at September 21, 2019 05:43 PM (WkaWu)
345
114 .. License to Lie by Sydney Powell, Gen. Mike Flynn's new lawyer, is about the misconduct in the Stevens case, as well as the misconduct in the Arthur Anderson and Merril Lynch cases.
The prosecutors were not only NOT fired, but ended up being in charge of the Mueller investigation (Andrew Weismann) and Chief White House Cousel under Obama (Kathryn Ruemmler).
I was listening to Ms. Powell just yesterday on this subject:
https://youtu.be/1hUNITkseos
It is terrifying what she experienced and which caused her to write her book, and she is dealing with the same shit in the Flynn case, but fortunately she has Judge Emmett Sullivan on that case.
Posted by: Sharkman at September 21, 2019 11:57 AM (xgyDD)
The prosecutors were not only NOT fired, but ended up being in charge of the Mueller investigation (Andrew Weismann) and Chief White House Cousel under Obama (Kathryn Ruemmler).
I was listening to Ms. Powell just yesterday on this subject:
https://youtu.be/1hUNITkseos
It is terrifying what she experienced and which caused her to write her book, and she is dealing with the same shit in the Flynn case, but fortunately she has Judge Emmett Sullivan on that case.
Posted by: Sharkman at September 21, 2019 11:57 AM (xgyDD)
Posted by: Always Late at September 21, 2019 05:52 PM (WkaWu)
346
Article 39 of Magna Carta
No free man shall be captured or imprisoned or disseised of his freehold or of his liberties, or of his free customs, or be outlawed or exiled or in any way destroyed, nor will we proceed against him by force or proceed against him by arms, but by the lawful judgment of his peers or by the law of the land.
No free man shall be captured or imprisoned or disseised of his freehold or of his liberties, or of his free customs, or be outlawed or exiled or in any way destroyed, nor will we proceed against him by force or proceed against him by arms, but by the lawful judgment of his peers or by the law of the land.
Posted by: Always Late at September 21, 2019 06:03 PM (WkaWu)
347
Post to check out new keyboard
Posted by: Alberta Oil Peon at September 21, 2019 08:35 PM (jEgzt)
348
"...that palladium of civil liberty and only safe guarantee for the life, liberty and property of the citizen." - Texas Declaration of Independence
Posted by: Catch Thirty-Thr33 at September 21, 2019 09:41 PM (bFYPm)
349
I found many people on juries to be idiots, not swayed by reason, logic nor evidence, If the accused was charged with 7 crimes, each dependent on being convicted on the other crimes, for example mail fraud, intend to defraud, theft, etc, there were those who'd convict on one count and ignore the other counts.
One juror said, "he looks like my nephew and my nephew could never do that." With intellect like that I do not believe it is possible to get 100% agreement on anything with any group of people.
Best bet is a selection pool of say 20 people no eliminations for any reason. Majority vote carries the day but forces the penalty phase to a new jury. Two thirds conviction forces a mandated punishment; a 90% verdict forces execution of sentence within three months, no exceptions. Death bed confessions carry no weight as do accusations made after 7 years of the alleged crime.
Judges may not dismiss charges. Judges may not decides what punishments are to be levied. Judges are umpires, nothing more or less.
Anyone breaking the regulations governing the trila, defense attorneys, prosecutors, judges, legal staffs, shall be punished in the same fashion as the crime being tried. IE if the charge is murder and any party deliberate breaking the rules through hiding evidence, threatening witnesses, destroying evidence, etc. if the penalty is 30 years- life and death this is what could be imposed on those who break the rules in such a trial.
Our judicial system is a bad joke. Defendents walk after 7 years for murder, 4 years for rape. We now will have "non-violent offenders" being released-ie the guy who points a gun at you while car jacking your car is non violent? The choirboy who burned down your home, stole your life savings shouldn't serve a full term in jail?
The worst are bad cops who use their authority to kill. Worse are the judges who defend them. The wrst are the politicians who sanction them all.
One juror said, "he looks like my nephew and my nephew could never do that." With intellect like that I do not believe it is possible to get 100% agreement on anything with any group of people.
Best bet is a selection pool of say 20 people no eliminations for any reason. Majority vote carries the day but forces the penalty phase to a new jury. Two thirds conviction forces a mandated punishment; a 90% verdict forces execution of sentence within three months, no exceptions. Death bed confessions carry no weight as do accusations made after 7 years of the alleged crime.
Judges may not dismiss charges. Judges may not decides what punishments are to be levied. Judges are umpires, nothing more or less.
Anyone breaking the regulations governing the trila, defense attorneys, prosecutors, judges, legal staffs, shall be punished in the same fashion as the crime being tried. IE if the charge is murder and any party deliberate breaking the rules through hiding evidence, threatening witnesses, destroying evidence, etc. if the penalty is 30 years- life and death this is what could be imposed on those who break the rules in such a trial.
Our judicial system is a bad joke. Defendents walk after 7 years for murder, 4 years for rape. We now will have "non-violent offenders" being released-ie the guy who points a gun at you while car jacking your car is non violent? The choirboy who burned down your home, stole your life savings shouldn't serve a full term in jail?
The worst are bad cops who use their authority to kill. Worse are the judges who defend them. The wrst are the politicians who sanction them all.
Posted by: I am not corey Booker at September 21, 2019 10:03 PM (Ju2mK)
350
42 years old, lived in my original hometown for all of my adult life, 7k parish seat of a 33k parish. One jury duty summons. "Call the Choupique Parish Courthouse the day before the summons for further instructions." I did so, and got a recording that jury duty had been cancelled. I hung up the phone, glad that I didn't have to go. Then, mild PANIC. Choupique Parish is so poor that they might fine someone for contempt for not showing up even though they were told otherwise. I called again on my landline, played the message again, and recorded it with my cel phone to play for Deputies Ennis and Cleatus if they should be so bold as to try to bust me. The criminals know Choupique Parish is poor, too. DA says a guilty verdict at a trial is 15 years, but plead guilty now and it'll be 10 or less with good behavior. Perp thinks he can do better, tells DA he wants a trial and figures the DA will offer 7 or less because trials and more jail time cost money they don't have. DA says have it your way. Summons are sent out, potential jurors sit in the courthouse lobby, perp is brought out and shown that all of these people showed up to put him in jail. Perp changes his mind on the spot, takes 10. Very few jury trials in Choupique Parish, just low ball pleas.
Posted by: hurricane567 at September 22, 2019 02:31 AM (ddcNI)
351
Called for jury duty three weeks ago in W. Virginia, assuming it would be for something trivial. 70 citizens show up, 20 chosen at random as potential jurors. Told it's a criminal trial involving charges of attempted murder, kidnapping, and other serious alleged crimes. These 20 were then questioned as a group about what they might know about the case, whether they know the victim, defendant, or any of the attorneys involved. Also asked about any potential biases for or against law enforcement testimony, etc. As the questioning goes on a number of the potential jurors get weeded out for answering in the affirmative to various questions. When this happens new people from the original 70 are picked to replace them. Towards the end of the questioning an EMT disclosed that he worked closely with police and would tend to believe their testimony more so than an ordinary witness. He was dismissed and my name announced to the court as the last replacement. Judge asked me if I had heard the questions and whether I would have answered "yes" to any of them. I told her no.
Prosecutors and defense attorney then retired with the judge to chambers for ten minutes, came back and announced the 14 (12+2 alternates) who would make up the jury. All of this took about three hours. Judge decided they'd break for lunch and the trial would start with opening statements when the court resumed 80 minutes later.
Defendant was an African American male who allegedly carjacked a man at gunpoint, and after telling the victim to drive to a remote location shot him twice, leaving him to bleed out on the side of the road. Through a series of miracles the victim survived but will spend the rest of his life in a wheelchair. All of this had happened three years ago a couple miles from my home, and yet I knew nothing of it. Oh, and the defendant was 16 years old when he allegedly committed these acts.
Long story short, I was/am torn up over the case. The evidence of the kid's guilt was overwhelming, including several eye witnesses who identified him, and a confession to the police after he was apprehended. BUT HE WAS SIXTEEN AT THE TIME. Like most kids that age he was young and stupid, and reading between the lines it doesn't appear his parents took a whole lot of responsibility for his upbringing (he was essentially homeless at the time). As a jury we were compelled to follow the law, but in finding the defendant guilty did we condemn a teenager to spend the bulk of his life behind bars for one stupid (albeit terrible) act? Sentencing won't be for another month, and I'm hoping the judge shows some mercy as the kidnapping conviction alone has the potential for a life sentence.
One other point -- the 13 others who made up the jury and alternates were among the best and noblest people I've ever met. Random strangers thrown together trying (under the law) to do the right thing for everybody involved. The passion and integrity of those men and women will stay with me for the rest of my life.
Prosecutors and defense attorney then retired with the judge to chambers for ten minutes, came back and announced the 14 (12+2 alternates) who would make up the jury. All of this took about three hours. Judge decided they'd break for lunch and the trial would start with opening statements when the court resumed 80 minutes later.
Defendant was an African American male who allegedly carjacked a man at gunpoint, and after telling the victim to drive to a remote location shot him twice, leaving him to bleed out on the side of the road. Through a series of miracles the victim survived but will spend the rest of his life in a wheelchair. All of this had happened three years ago a couple miles from my home, and yet I knew nothing of it. Oh, and the defendant was 16 years old when he allegedly committed these acts.
Long story short, I was/am torn up over the case. The evidence of the kid's guilt was overwhelming, including several eye witnesses who identified him, and a confession to the police after he was apprehended. BUT HE WAS SIXTEEN AT THE TIME. Like most kids that age he was young and stupid, and reading between the lines it doesn't appear his parents took a whole lot of responsibility for his upbringing (he was essentially homeless at the time). As a jury we were compelled to follow the law, but in finding the defendant guilty did we condemn a teenager to spend the bulk of his life behind bars for one stupid (albeit terrible) act? Sentencing won't be for another month, and I'm hoping the judge shows some mercy as the kidnapping conviction alone has the potential for a life sentence.
One other point -- the 13 others who made up the jury and alternates were among the best and noblest people I've ever met. Random strangers thrown together trying (under the law) to do the right thing for everybody involved. The passion and integrity of those men and women will stay with me for the rest of my life.
Posted by: ShoelesJoe at September 22, 2019 06:15 AM (mDEFe)
352
I'm mid sixties, veteran never been to prison and vote regularly. We have lived in this county for the last 30 + years and paid property taxes.I have never been called for Jury duty.
Posted by: obsidian at September 22, 2019 11:02 AM (7+yqP)
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