Governor Northam: Stop Digging! Although, On Second Thought...

'Virginia needs someone that can heal': Blackface Gov. Ralph Northam explains why he's not resigning as Gayle King lectures him on slavery after he describes them as 'indentured servants from Africa'

And you know if you look at Virginia's history we are now at the 400 year anniversary, just 90 miles from here in 1619. The first indentured servants from Africa landed on our shores in Old Point Comfort what we call now Fort Monroe and while-'

'Also known as slavery,' interviewer Gayle King interrupted

Okay...both of them are idiots and ignorant of history...but only one of them is the Governor of Virginia, but hopefully not for long.

An indentured servant, as everyone with a brain and capable of reading knows, is a person who is bound to a particular employer for a set period of time. That servitude is contractual, and it ends, unlike the servitude of the slaves brought here from Africa.

That's a really big difference, and if Northam doesn't understand it then he is unfit to hold public office.

Well, his glee at murdering babies should disqualify him too, but being dumber than a rock is a big no-no for governors of American states.

Although...NJ, NY and CT might have an argument about that.

Posted by: CBD at 06:30 PM




Comments

(Jump to bottom of page)

1 In?

Posted by: Cannibal Bob 'you only eat the ones you love' at February 10, 2019 06:29 PM (xcbew)

2 Hi

Posted by: Bertram Cabot, Jr. at February 10, 2019 06:29 PM (aKsyK)

3 Ed G. lost to this guy...

Posted by: navybrat, sometime commentater at February 10, 2019 06:29 PM (w7KSn)

4 I'm eating up this blog!

Posted by: Cannibal Bob 'you only eat the ones you love' at February 10, 2019 06:30 PM (xcbew)

5

Polident Dentu-Grip

Posted by: Bertram Cabot, Jr. at February 10, 2019 06:31 PM (aKsyK)

6 Indentured servitude was often the way that poor immigrants paid their way to the New World. They would contract to pay off the cost of the voyage by workign for their employer/benefactor. After the price was paid off the indentured servant was free to go about his way.

African slaves were no way, no how indentured servants. For crying out loud!

Posted by: LGoPs at February 10, 2019 06:31 PM (vFUiw)

7 Indentured servitude? So they worked for a new set of teeth then?

Posted by: Cannibal Bob 'you only eat the ones you love' at February 10, 2019 06:33 PM (xcbew)

8 African slaves were no way, no how indentured servants. For crying out loud!

Posted by: LGoPs at February 10, 2019 06:31 PM (vFUiw)

It's unbelievably tone-deaf and insulting, in addition to being stupendously ignorant and stupid!

He has to go.

Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo at February 10, 2019 06:33 PM (wYseH)

9 For a pediatric neurologist he does not come across as being intelligent at all.

Posted by: IC at February 10, 2019 06:33 PM (LJUs+)

10 This level of stupidity can only be attributed to Mal-Education. Conducted by the NEA, a wholly owned subsidiary of the Democratic Party.

THAT is the existential threat this country is facing, not Occasional-Cortex's fantasies about the end of the world.

Fucking idiot.

Posted by: LGoPs at February 10, 2019 06:33 PM (vFUiw)

11 To be fair, if they arrived in 1619, they were indentured servants, because slavery hadn't been legalized yet. But I'm sure neither one of them knew that.

Posted by: SloPitch Whiffer at February 10, 2019 06:33 PM (TXOkZ)

12 There needs to be a post on the God-Emperor Trump float at that Carnivale in Italy. I don't care if it was supposed to be sarcastic, or whatever -gawd that thing is fantastic! There needs to be a military parade in Washington DC with that thing out in front.

Posted by: Tom Servo at February 10, 2019 06:34 PM (V2Yro)

13 9 For a pediatric neurologist he does not come across as being intelligent at all.

Posted by: IC at February 10, 2019 06:33 PM (LJUs+)

He has the brain of a child.

Posted by: Cannibal Bob 'you only eat the ones you love' at February 10, 2019 06:34 PM (xcbew)

14 For a time, I thought no one could out dumb the eGOP.

I stand corrected.

The real question remains though: Will the GOP take advantage of it?
But, no matter what they do, or don't do, my President will beat up these asses like a red-haired step-child. Daily.

Posted by: Tonypete at February 10, 2019 06:34 PM (Y4EXg)

15 Who the heck is advising this guy? All he has to do is shut his mouth and stay out of the limelight. However, I am enjoying the show.

Posted by: Duke Lowell at February 10, 2019 06:35 PM (gC2IV)

16 We can sue doctors and lawyers for malpractice. Why not teachers? As in the entire fucking teaching establishment.

Posted by: LGoPs at February 10, 2019 06:35 PM (vFUiw)

17 To be fair, the first Africans arrived in Jamestown in 1619 were indentured servants and not slaves.

Slave law was not passed in Virginia until 1661.

Posted by: blaster at February 10, 2019 06:35 PM (jmIQu)

18 @6
And not only were African slaves not indentured, but the idea of a black African (i.e. someone born as a member of an African tribe) being in a position to voluntarily agree to come to the Americas as an indentured servant (which is how indentured servants were different from slaves) is absurd.

Posted by: junior at February 10, 2019 06:35 PM (cSguU)

19 Slavery was never "legal".
It was merely tolerated and somewhat ignored until it couldn't be any longer.

Posted by: navybrat, sometime commentater at February 10, 2019 06:36 PM (w7KSn)

20 There needs to be a post on the God-Emperor Trump
float at that Carnivale in Italy. I don't care if it was supposed to
be sarcastic, or whatever -gawd that thing is fantastic! There needs
to be a military parade in Washington DC with that thing out in front.

Posted by: Tom Servo
-----
Amazon Prime could get Trumptimous Prime here in two days!

Posted by: Tonypete at February 10, 2019 06:36 PM (Y4EXg)

21 First African slave was bought buy a free black man, yes?

Posted by: free tibet, with purchase of equal or greater value tibet at February 10, 2019 06:37 PM (CL76w)

22 To be fair, the first Africans arrived in Jamestown in 1619 were indentured servants and not slaves.



Slave law was not passed in Virginia until 1661.

Posted by: blaster at February 10, 2019 06:35 PM (jmIQu)


I'm not trying to be argumentative but did that mean that they were freed after they worked off their servitude? I don't know and am asking seriously.

Posted by: LGoPs at February 10, 2019 06:37 PM (vFUiw)

23 While I am sure that there exist examples of individuals with African Ancestry being indentured/bonded servants, this is not the honest argument of a learned man.

Posted by: garrett at February 10, 2019 06:38 PM (zdozD)

24 Ask PBS

https://preview.tinyurl.com/8d8wkg4

Posted by: blaster at February 10, 2019 06:38 PM (jmIQu)

25 9 For a pediatric neurologist he does not come across as being intelligent at all.

Posted by: IC at February 10, 2019 06:33 PM (LJUs+)

He has the brain of a child.
Posted by: Cannibal Bob 'you only eat the ones you love' at February 10, 2019 06:34 PM

----------------------

In a jar... on his desk...

Posted by: No One of Consequence at February 10, 2019 06:38 PM (8g9zh)

26 Gayle King? She the fat one with the appropriated hairdo?

Yeah, white hair. Like Maxine Waters. Let's mock them both relentlessly.

Posted by: Les Kinetic at February 10, 2019 06:38 PM (+fPHo)

27 @17

I suspect it would be more accurate to say that the first *blacks* that arrived in the Americas were indentured, and not slaves. I suspect that the ancestors of those blacks had left Africa long before the arrivees themselves were born.

Posted by: junior at February 10, 2019 06:39 PM (cSguU)

28 'Also known as slavery,' interviewer Gayle King interrupted




Gov. Northam: Hey look, I'm willing to kill babies after they are born. What more do you people want from me?

Posted by: TheQuietMan at February 10, 2019 06:39 PM (SiINZ)

29 @19 that's certainly untrue

Posted by: blaster at February 10, 2019 06:39 PM (jmIQu)

30 The first Africans brought here WERE indentured. Chattel slavery only came about around twenty-five years afterwards.

Northam is entirely correct on this point.

Posted by: Grey Fox at February 10, 2019 06:39 PM (bZ7mE)

31 Although...NJ, NY and CT might have an argument about that.
---
and #Failifornia as well...

Posted by: redc1c4 at February 10, 2019 06:40 PM (ATMED)

32 Thought this was early for Gun Thread part Deux

Posted by: Skip at February 10, 2019 06:40 PM (/rm4P)

33 Northam was right but agreed with King anyway.

Virginia History is important for the Virginia governor to know. But now he is compromised.

Posted by: blaster at February 10, 2019 06:41 PM (jmIQu)

34 Sorry, off topic. Couldn't hit the last thread. Tonight burning the last of hurricane Sandy 100'red oak takedown. Was wondering if AOC will be confiscating the remaining 6 cords of firewood I have stocked?

Posted by: Redenzo at February 10, 2019 06:41 PM (14qvS)

35 Hold my wheat grass juice...

Posted by: Jerry Brown at February 10, 2019 06:41 PM (sLicW)

36 Democrats aren't used to being debated by reporters. They've typically been fellated by the media.

Posted by: Northernlurker, still weirdly happy at February 10, 2019 06:42 PM (MkcN1)

37 I emailed CBS and asked them if they really didn't understand what a joke they and the MSM have become.

Posted by: Dan Smoot's Apprentice at February 10, 2019 06:42 PM (H8QX8)

38 ...also, these people did not come to the united states.

They came to the colonies.

Posted by: garrett at February 10, 2019 06:42 PM (zdozD)

39 Come on, you know history isn't a Leftist strong suit, otherwise they wouldn't try this socalism crap time and time and time again expecting a different result.

Posted by: Skip at February 10, 2019 06:42 PM (/rm4P)

40 Ask PBS



https://preview.tinyurl.com/8d8wkg4


Ok, got it. But you'd have to be Democrat to get away with this kind of sophomoric argument, and maybe this baby-killer will. A Republican making this comparison would be crucified and driven from public life.


Posted by: LGoPs at February 10, 2019 06:42 PM (vFUiw)

41 That's right, we have Gavin now. Gee, he's kind of laying low, isn't he? Maybe because he should be in jail, like 50% of the dems...

Posted by: clutch cargo at February 10, 2019 06:43 PM (sLicW)

42 Like a good communist, he never admits his failures but looks to place the blame on the blameless.

No one gives a crap about 1619 motherhumper.

It's 2019....resign already.

Posted by: Hairyback Guy at February 10, 2019 06:43 PM (Z+IKu)

43 This reminds me of that scene in Heartbreak Ridge. Are you new to the infantry, major?

Are you new to politics, Ralph? Yes sir, come over from medicine! Then stick to it because you are a walking clusterfuck as a politician.

Posted by: Duke Lowell at February 10, 2019 06:44 PM (gC2IV)

44 @40 well of course.

Northam should go but Dems have to cover for him.

Posted by: blaster at February 10, 2019 06:44 PM (jmIQu)

45 25 9 For a pediatric neurologist he does not come across as being intelligent at all.

Posted by: IC at February 10, 2019 06:33 PM (LJUs+)

He has the brain of a child.
Posted by: Cannibal Bob 'you only eat the ones you love' at February 10, 2019 06:34 PM

----------------------

In a jar... on his desk...
Posted by: No One of Consequence at February 10, 2019 06:38 PM (8g9zh)

The check is in the mail.

Posted by: Planned Parenthood, Parts and Service at February 10, 2019 06:44 PM (jp0Bv)

46 To be fair, the first Africans arrived in Jamestown in 1619 were indentured servants and not slaves.

Posted by: blaster at February 10, 2019 06:35 PM (jmIQu)

They entered into a contract freely? No, they did not.


That the law didn't recognize slavery doesn't change its existence.

Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo at February 10, 2019 06:45 PM (wYseH)

47 This is why liberals can't conduct a coversation about race with exposing their staggering ignorance of history.

This is why they instantly throw out the racist card when you expose such ignorance of history. Because their ignorance of the law and history of slavery is laughable.

The "sharks still follow the slave sailing routes" sort of stupidity.

And the "3/5th of a man" crap.

Idiots. In blackface and KKK robes sermonizing to the world about race.

Posted by: Adirondack Patriot at February 10, 2019 06:45 PM (ZxU8C)

48 The first Africans brought here WERE indentured. Chattel slavery only came about around twenty-five years afterwards.

Northam is entirely correct on this point.
----------

I assumed that from a technical perspective, my history is rusty though.

Is he smart enough to know this though, or did he use this term interchangeably, and more importantly, is he smart enough not to make a "nuanced" point like that during his groveling apology tour? It's a distinction without a difference to most people's minds, and no historian is going to stick his head above the foxhole at this point in time to defend him.

Posted by: Common Tater at February 10, 2019 06:45 PM (s8v1a)

49 Now, our self-righteous governor will attempt to salvage his reputation by sacrificing our state's history.

He is an arrogant man.

Posted by: Jinx the Cat at February 10, 2019 06:46 PM (FTlwv)

50 It's 2019....resign already.
Posted by: Hairyback Guy at February 10, 2019 06:43 PM (Z+IKu)

He'll never resign. I don't think we appreciate what a superhuman feat Andrew Breitbart achieved to get Weiner to resign. An event like Haley's comet. They NEVER resign, apologize, express shame or even concede a point. And by golly, it seems to work for them,

Posted by: Dan Smoot's Apprentice at February 10, 2019 06:47 PM (H8QX8)

51 Chattel slavery only came about around twenty-five years afterwards.


Northam is entirely correct on this point.


Posted by: Grey Fox at February 10, 2019 06:39 PM (bZ7mE)

No, none of those slaves were freed after a set term of servitude. You can call it anything you want, but these people did not enter into an agreement to exchange their labor for some remuneration, for a set period, after which they would be freed.

That's slavery to me.

Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo at February 10, 2019 06:47 PM (wYseH)

52 They entered into a contract freely? No, they did not.


That the law didn't recognize slavery doesn't change its existence.


Half the white indentured servants probably didn't have much of a choice about whether to sign or not. Doesn't matter - under the law they were indentured servants, not slaves. There was a distinct difference.

The first owner of a slave in the colonies was a free black man. How do you think he got here?

Posted by: Grey Fox at February 10, 2019 06:47 PM (bZ7mE)

53
A reporter actually asked a Democrat a non-softball question? Or was it and he just whiffed?

Posted by: Hadrian the Seventh at February 10, 2019 06:48 PM (LsBY9)

54 That's gotta be a set-up. "Oh, please educate me, I'm just a poor privileged ex-champion Moonwalker--help me!"

Posted by: Gov. Rainman Coonman, son at February 10, 2019 06:48 PM (Ndje9)

55 No, none of those slaves were freed after a set term of servitude. You can call it anything you want, but these people did not enter into an agreement to exchange their labor for some remuneration, for a set period, after which they would be freed.

Citation?

Posted by: Grey Fox at February 10, 2019 06:48 PM (bZ7mE)

56 So when will Dem 2020 people start campaigning in VA?


Oh, staying far away, eh?

Posted by: Ha at February 10, 2019 06:48 PM (MAstk)

57 I hope this guy goes the distance. He's the Charlie Sheen of Democrat Politics.

Posted by: Mr. Peebles at February 10, 2019 06:49 PM (fTQ1B)

58 Many Europeans and british and Irish were sent over as indentured servants, but they could work off their debt. Of course sometimes they got screwed over by crooks, but really Northam.
Is he just stupid?

Posted by: PJ at February 10, 2019 06:49 PM (qlTN9)

59 A slave also could theoretically purchase their freedom.
If they weren't a slave and had money...

Posted by: navybrat, sometime commentater at February 10, 2019 06:49 PM (w7KSn)

60 lol, you know, according to pbs


in 1610 the first black Africans came to Virginia. With no slave laws in place, they were initially treated as indentured servants, and given the same opporthnities for freedom dues as whites. However, slave laws were soon passed - in Massachusetts in 1641 and Virginia in 1661 - and any small freeedoms that might have existted for blacks were taken away.




so, you might argue about whether or not northam was disingenuous, however, he was not wrong.

Posted by: yankeefifth at February 10, 2019 06:50 PM (MTjB1)

61 Posted by: Grey Fox at February 10, 2019 06:39 PM (bZ7mE)

By the way, Virginia was settled by the Brits, who allowed chattel slavery outside of England! So whose law governed those slaves?

Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo at February 10, 2019 06:50 PM (wYseH)

62 He'll never resign. I don't think we appreciate what a superhuman feat Andrew Breitbart achieved to get Weiner to resign. An event like Haley's comet. They NEVER resign, apologize, express shame or even concede a point. And by golly, it seems to work for them,
Posted by: Dan Smoot's Apprentice at February 10, 2019 06:47 PM (H8QX

------------------

As I understand it, VA has no mechanism to remove him in its laws. So if he refuses to resign, there is no recourse.

Posted by: Calm Mentor at February 10, 2019 06:51 PM (ffYR/)

63 Dem cage match.


No tap outs.

Posted by: LASue at February 10, 2019 06:51 PM (XROPS)

64
By the way, Virginia was settled by the Brits, who allowed chattel slavery outside of England! So whose law governed those slaves?

Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo


Republican

Posted by: Hadrian the Seventh at February 10, 2019 06:52 PM (LsBY9)

65 I'm "indentured servants" has been in the Gov's talking points related to this anniversary from the get-go, and I amend that he probably does know this is true, but decided on the spot that it would not be a good time to argue semantics.

Posted by: SloPitch Whiffer at February 10, 2019 06:52 PM (TXOkZ)

66 When the libs have finally figured out what the hell happened iin 1619, how will that affect anything that is going on today?

Is there a bill to bring back indentured servitude or slavery to Virginia?

Posted by: Adirondack Patriot at February 10, 2019 06:52 PM (ZxU8C)

67 Well to give him the benefit of the doubt maybe he explained all that later on. Maybe Gayle King, Oprah's BFF, is in the wrong? That would be fun too.

Posted by: PJ at February 10, 2019 06:52 PM (qlTN9)

68 Oh hey, new thread.

Unrelated, but it made me laugh. (Also, willowed from the last thread.)

https://tinyurl.com/yxghk6t9

Posted by: qdpsteve at February 10, 2019 06:53 PM (miE9U)

69 I'm an indentured servant. I have to do whatever Al Sharpton tells me for the next three years.

Posted by: Gov. Rainman Coonman, son at February 10, 2019 06:53 PM (Ndje9)

70 By the way, Virginia was settled by the Brits, who allowed chattel slavery outside of England! So whose law governed those slaves?

So if they were slaves, they would have been sold openly as such and not as indentured servants?

You are making my case for me here.

Posted by: Grey Fox at February 10, 2019 06:53 PM (bZ7mE)

71 PBS says the 1619 Africans were in fact indentured servants with a chance to earn freedom.

https://to.pbs.org/1pnza2r

Still, it's dumb to cite the origin of African conscript labor as a contract rather than the precursor to slavery, which followed immediately.

I'm not even sure that when the slave laws were passed they didn't retroactively encompass the "indentured servants".

It's a stupid and tone deaf thing to say, especially when you're already on the hot seat for actual racist behavior.

Posted by: Bandersnatch at February 10, 2019 06:53 PM (fuK7c)

72 I am going to enjoy watching this play out. They created a monster and now it has turned on them. Out of the three, the Lt Gov is the only one who faces removal. Great optics.

Posted by: Duke Lowell at February 10, 2019 06:54 PM (gC2IV)

73 He has the brain of a child.
Posted by: Cannibal Bob 'you only eat the ones you love' at February 10, 2019 06:34 PM (xcbew)


----

In his jar collection at home.

Posted by: Darth Randall at February 10, 2019 06:55 PM (p0nVR)

74 How do you think he got here?
------
Jamaica or of his own free will!

Posted by: vaudeville jokes at February 10, 2019 06:55 PM (Evws/)

75 59 A slave also could theoretically purchase their freedom.

Like Harry Potter did for Dobby with a sock.

(You have to translate these complex issues for the millenials in terms they relate to.)

Posted by: Adirondack Patriot at February 10, 2019 06:55 PM (ZxU8C)

76 were in fact indentured servants with a chance to earn freedom.

https://to.pbs.org/1pnza2r

Still, it's dumb to cite the origin of African conscript labor as a contract rather than the precursor to slavery, which followed immediately.

I'm not even sure that when the slave laws were passed they didn't retroactively encompass the "indentured servants".

It's a stupid and tone deaf thing to say, especially when you're already on the hot seat for actual racist behavior.
Posted by: Bandersnatch at F



1. they were indentured so the truth matters.

2. northam going on about it is political suicide.

3. nice to have someone start talking about the truth of slavery.

Posted by: yankeefifth at February 10, 2019 06:55 PM (MTjB1)

77 I just wish the Hawaiian judge would come out with his ruling and put this guy out of his misery.

Posted by: Bilwis, Devourer of Low Glycemic Souls at February 10, 2019 06:55 PM (jp0Bv)

78 Mentioned this a few times that read somewhere Democrats got nothing on Northam to impeach him. So hopefully he will stick around as the gift that keeps on giving.

Posted by: Skip at February 10, 2019 06:55 PM (/rm4P)

79 Remember when the left had an absolute shit fit over the claim the NAZIs didn't use chemical weapons*?


The left, oddly, claimed that the death camps were chemical weapons, which was....stupid.


Anyway, it seems to me that if claiming the NAZIs didn't use chemical weapons is an impeachable offense that calling slavery indectured servitude would be as well.

*Apparently the NAZIs *did* use actual chemical weapons against Russian soldiers hold up in a mining complex.

Posted by: 18-1 at February 10, 2019 06:55 PM (cRkMZ)

80 We can sue doctors and lawyers for malpractice. Why not teachers? As in the entire fucking teaching establishment.
Posted by: LGoPs at February 10, 2019 06:35 PM (vFUiw)

Why not politicians? As in 99.99999999999% of office holders in the United States.

Posted by: Anonymous White Male at February 10, 2019 06:56 PM (3sjI6)

81 nazis were socialists

Posted by: yankeefifth at February 10, 2019 06:56 PM (MTjB1)

82 Hi and welcome to America's Stupidest Political Contrivances.

Posted by: Circa (Insert Year Here) at February 10, 2019 06:56 PM (vE2Ex)

83 Do you think Trump is behind all the bad character assassinations of to Dems this week?
Hint the answer is no.
It is Mrs Bill Clinton.

She is going down and bringing the Dems with her.


Posted by: Joe Walker at February 10, 2019 06:57 PM (S+i5q)

84 Indentured servants are ones with false teeth.

Posted by: Mr. Peebles at February 10, 2019 06:57 PM (fTQ1B)

85
I'd like to be en-dentured. But I can't afford it.

Posted by: Toothless Geezer at February 10, 2019 06:57 PM (t5m5e)

86 He is being dishonest by half.

In 1619 the first indentured servants arrived from Europe as well.

Posted by: Cicero Boom chicka boom Kaboom! Kid at February 10, 2019 06:57 PM (r7nKK)

87 The white indentured servants / bondsman whatever were literally worn out previous to fulfilling their contracts. They simply could not do the hard labor required of them.

I wish I were home since the answer to this question is in the book Mayflower.

Posted by: 13times at February 10, 2019 06:58 PM (K3B2k)

88 whether or not there were black indentured servants does not really matter and should not really hurt anyone who mentions as much.

really, if anything, having given blacks indentured servant opportunities and then taking them away and enslaving them is worse.

Posted by: yankeefifth at February 10, 2019 06:58 PM (MTjB1)

89 In his jar collection at home.

Posted by: Abby Normal at February 10, 2019 06:58 PM (ZxU8C)

90 I think I read recently that Dred Scott tried to buy his and his family's freedom, and his slavemaster refused.

Posted by: qdpsteve at February 10, 2019 06:58 PM (miE9U)

91 Citation?

Posted by: Grey Fox at February 10, 2019 06:48 PM (bZ7mE)



https://www.encyclopediavirginia.org/Virginia_s_First_Africans

Historians have long believed these
Africans to have come to Virginia from the Caribbean, but Spanish records suggest
they had been captured in a Spanish-controlled area of West Central
Africa.


So they probably came to Virginia via the Spanish, which makes them slaves. Buying and selling human beings against their will is slavery.

Yes, we are arguing a semantic point, because I doubt you are a proponent of slavery. But using the phrase "indentured servant" to describe West Africans who did not speak English or Spanish and had no way of knowing what the hell was going on (if anyone even bothered to explain), much less sign a contract defining their term of servitude, is an insult.

I am not a revisionist. I understand that the world was a different place in 1619, and it is vital to respect that. I will not criticize the Virginia of 1619, but I will criticize the current governor who can't be bothered to understand what the hell he is saying.


Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo at February 10, 2019 06:58 PM (wYseH)

92 ...it would not be a good time to argue semantics.
------
Sure, blame the Jooos!

Posted by: andycanuck at February 10, 2019 06:59 PM (Evws/)

93 You can be pinpoint accurate and still be missing the point. Politics isn't a history test.

Posted by: bear with asymmetrical balls at February 10, 2019 06:59 PM (H5knJ)

94 fucking anti-semantics

Posted by: yankeefifth at February 10, 2019 07:00 PM (MTjB1)

95 Did Northam get through medical school by brute force? He ain't too bright? Sounds like a guy who failed some classes but wouldn't quit.


Posted by: clutch at February 10, 2019 07:00 PM (kiSdp)

96 You pay the Muslim slave trader in Africa your money and you can call them whatever you want.

Posted by: DR.WTF at February 10, 2019 07:00 PM (T71PA)

97 I am an indentured servant, but I identify as a slave.

Posted by: African-American in 1619 at February 10, 2019 07:00 PM (ZxU8C)

98 Posted by: Joe Walker at February 10, 2019 06:57 PM (S+i5q)

The day that Clinton goes down-is held to accountability for her actions-would be a great day! I don't see that happening in this life although I do pray for it everyday.

Posted by: FenelonSpoke at February 10, 2019 07:00 PM (AllCR)

99 how do you have an argument with someone that is inherently anti-semantic or refuses to concede the importance of entomology in any linguistic endeavor?

Posted by: yankeefifth at February 10, 2019 07:01 PM (MTjB1)

100 Is he just stupid?


Posted by: PJ at February 10, 2019 06:49 PM (qlTN9)

Well, he is a Democrat, so...

Posted by: I like cookies at February 10, 2019 07:01 PM (xxAFD)

101 African Americans got here in 1619? Happy Quadricentennial!

Posted by: Burger Chef at February 10, 2019 07:01 PM (RuIsu)

102 @CBD historical records show that at least some of the indentured Africans earned their freedom in Jamestown.

So Northam is correct. But then again it's like saying well Hitler didn't kill ALL the Jews.

Chattel slavery is abhorrent. And Northam is a terrible person who should not be governor of this state.

Posted by: blaster at February 10, 2019 07:02 PM (ZfRYq)

103 95 Did Northam get through medical school by brute force? He ain't too bright? Sounds like a guy who failed some classes but wouldn't quit.


Posted by: clutch at February 10, 2019 07:00 PM (kiSdp)

Ironically, he had incriminating pictures of the Dean.

Posted by: Bilwis, Devourer of Low Glycemic Souls at February 10, 2019 07:02 PM (jp0Bv)

104 In fairness to Northam, the textbook I am currently using *also* says that the Africans arriving in 1619 were slaves. I have used this in an object lesson for my students in why you shouldn't believe everything you're told without investigating, which, given the insane leftist bias of the rest of the textbook, is kind of a two-birds-with-one-stone thing.

Posted by: Dr. T at February 10, 2019 07:02 PM (2PXwn)

105 not sure clinton is ever going down. who would let her? nothing worse than when the blowjob is over and you look down to see a set of dentures hanging there.

Posted by: yankeefifth at February 10, 2019 07:02 PM (MTjB1)

106 If I change the debate to 1619, maybe they will forget about 2019?

Winning!

Posted by: Governor Northam at February 10, 2019 07:03 PM (ZxU8C)

107 In modern times we have implanted servants.

Posted by: Bertram Cabot, Jr. at February 10, 2019 07:03 PM (aKsyK)

108 historical records show that at least some of the indentured Africans earned their freedom in Jamestown.

Posted by: blaster at February 10, 2019 07:02 PM (ZfRYq)

I did not know that. I stand corrected. (please to give citation)

Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo at February 10, 2019 07:03 PM (wYseH)

109 Nothing bad will happen to these people. They're Democrats, and the people who vote for them were stupid enough to elect them, and they're still stupid, so they will vote for them again and again.
Liberals by their very nature cannot learn.

Posted by: BeckoningChasm at February 10, 2019 07:04 PM (l9m7l)

110 58 Many Europeans and british and Irish were sent over as indentured servants, but they could work off their debt. Of course sometimes they got screwed over by crooks, but really Northam.
Is he just stupid?
Posted by: PJ at February 10, 2019 06:49 PM (qlTN9)

Many Irish and Scots (and Welsh and English, too) were sold into the colonies as slaves after the various Risings, and even for run of the mill crimes. But a fair-skinned red head doesn't last long in the tropic sun.

Posted by: Fox2! at February 10, 2019 07:04 PM (MwFQu)

111 ...or refuses to concede the importance of entomology in any linguistic endeavor?

Posted by: yankeefifth at February 10, 2019 07:01 PM (MTjB1)


Something's bugging me about your comment.

Posted by: I like cookies at February 10, 2019 07:04 PM (xxAFD)

112 This dude isn't a millennial. AOC is ignorant and feels super special, like many millenials were raised to be.

But what is the governor's excuse for calling slavery indentured servitude? I didn't really care that much about the blackface, but this makes me wonder.

What a fiasco.

Posted by: chique d'afrique at February 10, 2019 07:04 PM (Sow0v)

113 Over 100, so OT:

Fred Dryer, from the old NFL and star of "Hunter" in the 80s, is supposed to be Mark Levin's guest tonight on Life Liberty Levin.

I liked Mark's interview with Jon Voight, and hoping this one is good too.

Posted by: Hands at February 10, 2019 07:04 PM (786Ro)

114 the blowjob is over and you look down to see a set of dentures hanging there.

Posted by: yankeefifth at February 10, 2019 07:02 PM (MTjB1)

I will defer to your expertise and experience in this matter.

Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo at February 10, 2019 07:04 PM (wYseH)

115 Democrats - only the bestest mental midgets need apply.

Posted by: Anna Puma at February 10, 2019 07:05 PM (B1ik8)

116 Check out the Wikipedia article on slavery in the United States. Yes, I know it's Wikipedia but the info it gives on this topic can be sourced elsewhere. The 1619 group of Africans had been captured from the Spaniards by the Dutch. The Dutch brought them to the Virginia colony. Because the Africans had been baptized (probably not willingly) and were Christians they could not, legally, at that time be permanently enslaved -- and they were freed after their term of indenture was up. The first colony to formally recognize lifelong slavery was... wait for it... Massachusetts in 1641.

Posted by: Secret Square at February 10, 2019 07:05 PM (9WuX0)

117 Posted by: yankeefifth at February 10, 2019 07:02 PM (MTjB1)

Not a great dinner time visual.

Posted by: clutch at February 10, 2019 07:05 PM (kiSdp)

118 Northam should have mentioned how slavery would have been ended much sooner if only they had they implemented his plan of murdering babies as they were being born.

Posted by: LASue at February 10, 2019 07:05 PM (XROPS)

119 It would be historically accurate to say the first Slaves arrived at Jamestown in 1619. The Africans had been pirated from the Portuguese who had captured them in a war by Dutch privateers. They brought them to Jamestown. Jamestown however did not have slavery codified so considered them indentured servants.



Posted by: blaster at February 10, 2019 07:05 PM (ZfRYq)

120 Like Harry Potter did for Dobby with a sock.
(You have to translate these complex issues for the millenials in terms they relate to.)
Posted by: Adirondack Patriot at February 10, 2019 06:55 PM (ZxU8C)

Yup...as soon as he mentioned 1619 anyone under 35 immediately tune out and go all fuzzy thinking "That is ancient times, when evil white men roamed the errth, just like my teachers at Brattleboro High said" and they freeze in place until Landru reanimates them. He knew what he was doing.

Commie prick needs to go.....

Posted by: Hairyback Guy at February 10, 2019 07:05 PM (Z+IKu)

121 So we're these indentured slaves allowed to go free after they served their time?

Posted by: chique d'afrique at February 10, 2019 07:07 PM (Sow0v)

122 Damn. I must have been hungry...

I raped that pizza like I was the Lieutenant Governor of Virginia.

Posted by: garrett at February 10, 2019 07:07 PM (zdozD)

123 From now on, I'm going to follow the Democratic pary example as refer to all African-Americans as "ISFAs" = Indentured Servants From Africa.

Posted by: zombie at February 10, 2019 07:07 PM (c+2jX)

124 14
The real question remains though: Will the GOP take advantage of it?

Posted by: Tonypete at February 10, 2019 06:34 PM (Y4EXg)


You just made me spit expensive bourbon at my monitor.

Posted by: rickl at February 10, 2019 07:07 PM (sdi6R)

125 Why would you want to have an indentured cervix?

I mean, a cervix is a very sensitive part of the body.

Putting someone's dentures in your cervix can be very, very uncomfortable.

That's why I am opposed to having an indentured cervix in Virginia.

Posted by: Emily Litella at February 10, 2019 07:07 PM (ZxU8C)

126 Not a great dinner time visual.
Posted by: clutch at F




you should not be surfing the web during dinner.

Posted by: yankeefifth at February 10, 2019 07:07 PM (MTjB1)

127 Conservative Treehouse has picture of Amy Kluelesschar in a blizzard announcement for Presidential candidate and Global warming

Posted by: Skip at February 10, 2019 07:07 PM (/rm4P)

128 Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo at February 10, 2019 07:04 PM (wYseH)

LOL. I'm glad somebody went there.

Posted by: FenelonSpoke at February 10, 2019 07:07 PM (AllCR)

129 What happens is Northam is out and his second is out. Who is third in line ? Or they don't have one and are trying to, um, whitewash Northam ?

Posted by: runner at February 10, 2019 07:07 PM (bUjCl)

130 So they probably came to Virginia via the Spanish, which makes them slaves. Buying and selling human beings against their will is slavery.

Yes, we are arguing a semantic point, because I doubt you are a proponent of slavery. But using the phrase "indentured servant" to describe West Africans who did not speak English or Spanish and had no way of knowing what the hell was going on (if anyone even bothered to explain), much less sign a contract defining their term of servitude, is an insult.

I am not a revisionist. I understand that the world was a different place in 1619, and it is vital to respect that. I will not criticize the Virginia of 1619, but I will criticize the current governor who can't be bothered to understand what the hell he is saying.


So basically what you are saying is that your own definition of the term "slavery" should be applied retroactively despite 1) the terms that they were sold under and 2) the legal definition of said terms at the time of sale.

Again, I want to see actual proof that they were not freed at the end of their indentures (usually seven years). There terms should have ended well before chattel slavery was codified, so they would have already been free (and, as I noted above, the first owner of a true slave in Virginia was himself a free black man and therefore could have been one of the indentured servants under question, though I don't actually know his background)

Incidentally, I believe that they were sold by the Dutch, not the Spanish. Dutch ship, anyway.

Despite what you seem to believe, the fact that they were considered servants, not slaves, is a pretty widely known fact to readers of history - I think it was mentioned in the AP textbook I had in college, and it comes up in discussions pretty often. I kind of bemused that you seem to think that this is some sort of odd thing I just came up with myself just now...

Posted by: Grey Fox at February 10, 2019 07:07 PM (bZ7mE)

131 OT. Just got back from "They Shall Not Grow Old". Really no words are good enough. Just so moving and Peter Jackson's talk at end of the movie about how he put the whole thing together was utterly fascinating.

Posted by: Tuna at February 10, 2019 07:08 PM (jm1YL)

132 @CBD

https://preview.tinyurl.com/hdlfv2x


Posted by: blaster at February 10, 2019 07:08 PM (ZfRYq)

133 Col. Schlichter said that they would hate the new rules.

I'm enjoying this particular spectacle.

Posted by: ALH at February 10, 2019 07:08 PM (vBjuR)

134 So we're these indentured slaves allowed to go free after they served their time?

Posted by: chique d'afrique at February 10, 2019 07:07 PM (Sow0v)

"Blaster" suggests that at least some were able to earn their freedom. But unless all of them were bale to earn their freedom, they were slaves.

I can't believe that I am arguing this point.

Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo at February 10, 2019 07:08 PM (wYseH)

135 Still, it's dumb to cite the origin of African conscript labor as a contract rather than the precursor to slavery, which followed immediately.

I'm not even sure that when the slave laws were passed they didn't retroactively encompass the "indentured servants".

It's a stupid and tone deaf thing to say, especially when you're already on the hot seat for actual racist behavior.
Posted by: Bandersnatch at February 10, 2019 06:53 PM (fuK7c)


Okay, I hate to put on my history lecturer's hat here, since I've been doing classwork most of the day already, BUT....

Yes, some indentured servants from Africa did get locked into slavery after they arrived, but this was definitely a distinction with a difference. For the first several decades, black servants were very often (I won't say "as a rule") freed, and many went on to buy land, acquire property--including servants and even slaves themselves--and were even recognized by colonial courts as legal parties in disputes with their ex-masters. Anthony Johnson is the most famous example of this, but there are others.

Slavery for Africans tended to become the norm by the 1660s, but even then, the legislation for it didn't replace indentured servitude with slavery. The turning point had more to do with rulings that the slave status could be passed down from mother to child, whereas before it hadn't necessarily been a hereditary thing. So PBS and the other entities are right to object that this was indentured servitude and not slavery, because it does matter historically.

Posted by: Dr. T at February 10, 2019 07:08 PM (2PXwn)

136 you should not be surfing the web during dinner.
Posted by: yankeefifth at February 10, 2019 07:07 PM (MTjB1)

Especially not if you're posting about Hitlery.

Posted by: clutch at February 10, 2019 07:09 PM (kiSdp)

137 OT
I feel dumb
spent 2 days being annoyed that the Search icon in Netflix on my Kindle Fire disappeared
turns out it is still in the same upper right corner, just really really faint black on black outline

Posted by: votermom certified russian matryoshka bot at February 10, 2019 07:10 PM (BJlbN)

138 It's going to be a great week if they file impeachment articles in VA tomorrow.

Posted by: Ha at February 10, 2019 07:10 PM (MAstk)

139 We need Maxine Waters Hair to show and say

EM-DENTURE FOADDY FI !!!

Posted by: Hands at February 10, 2019 07:10 PM (786Ro)

140 74 How do you think he got here?
------
Jamaica

Everybody (except on the Port Washington branch) has to change at Jamaica.

Posted by: Fox2! at February 10, 2019 07:10 PM (MwFQu)

141 When NY passed their abomination of an abortion law it was the last straw for the Mrs. She finally agreed that we should sell the house in NY and become VA residents. Now the VA pols have proven to be equally bestial. It's hard to get away from the idiot Dems! Now we have to figure out another place to settle when our time here is up. Bastages!! Fargon Ice Holes!!

Posted by: Rocky Lombo's Pancreaus at February 10, 2019 07:11 PM (mUoYB)

142 Col. Schlichter said that they would hate the new rules.



I'm enjoying this particular spectacle.

Posted by: ALH at February 10, 2019 07:08 PM (vBjuR)

I completely agree. Splitting hairs to defend one or the other is counter productive. We should be egging them on.

Posted by: I like cookies at February 10, 2019 07:11 PM (xxAFD)

143 I can't believe that I am arguing this point.

Neither can I, honestly. This is kind of American History 101 stuff....

Posted by: Grey Fox at February 10, 2019 07:11 PM (bZ7mE)

144 Why would you want to have an indentured cervix?

I mean, a cervix is a very sensitive part of the body.

Putting someone's dentures in your cervix can be very, very uncomfortable.

That's why I am opposed to having an indentured cervix in Virginia.
Posted by: Emily Litella at February 10, 2019 07:07 PM (ZxU8C)


Pssst, Emily. It's indentured *servitude*.

Posted by: DR.WTF at February 10, 2019 07:11 PM (T71PA)

145 Serious question, in case no one has covered this. How did the indentured African slaves get here?

Posted by: chique d'afrique at February 10, 2019 07:11 PM (Sow0v)

146 Since the first slaves came to America in Jamestown, I am compelled to change my name due to the racist nature of the word "James."

I shall choose a name of notoriety and black pride.

From this day forward, call me Lebron Sharpton.

Posted by: Lebron James at February 10, 2019 07:11 PM (ZxU8C)

147 https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anthony_Johnson_(colonist)

First slaveholder

Posted by: fluffy at February 10, 2019 07:11 PM (dCRRg)

148 "Indentured Servants from Africa"

If a school textbook instead of a Democrat Governor had used that phrase you could guarantee that any school districts using the book would stop within a week of hearing it.

Posted by: Surfperch at February 10, 2019 07:11 PM (tVQUs)

149

Okay, so what does hypergamous mean?


Yes, you people living inside my computer are my google.

Posted by: Soothsayer -- Fake Commenter at February 10, 2019 07:11 PM (KYuJa)

150 Despite what you seem to believe, the fact that they were considered servants, not slaves, is a pretty widely known fact to readers of history


It has been brought up, but West Africans with no English, Spanish, or Dutch language skills can hardly have given informed consent for a fresh start in the New World.

The fact that within a generation actual chattel slavery had been codified makes me wonder why some of y'all are so insistent that it was something else at first, just because it was called something else.

Why the desperate rear guard action?

Posted by: Bandersnatch at February 10, 2019 07:12 PM (fuK7c)

151
Many Irish and Scots (and Welsh and English, too) were sold into the colonies as slaves after the various Risings, and even for run of the mill crimes. But a fair-skinned red head doesn't last long in the tropic sun.
Posted by: Fox2!


Captain Blood

https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0026174

Posted by: Bertram Cabot, Jr. at February 10, 2019 07:12 PM (aKsyK)

152 Posted by: blaster at February 10, 2019 07:08 PM (ZfRYq)

He brought not any thing but 20. and odd Negroes, w[hich] the Governo[r] and Cape Merchant bought for victuall.

Sounds like slavery to me.

some blacks were able to hold on to their status of being indentured servants, thus, eventually gaining their freedom.

"Some."

It was slavery. That it was not codified until 1640 means very little to me.

Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo at February 10, 2019 07:12 PM (wYseH)

153 @realDonaldTrump
Well, it happened again. Amy Klobuchar announced that she is running for President, talking proudly of fighting global warming while standing in a virtual blizzard of snow, ice and freezing temperatures. Bad timing. By the end of her speech she looked like a Snowman(woman)!

Posted by: votermom certified russian matryoshka bot at February 10, 2019 07:12 PM (BJlbN)

154 Does it matter what he says? A poll showed a majority of black Virginians don't want him to resign. Don't know if it's a rigged poll to give dems cover or if black voters are putting party loyalty ahead of race. Northam thinks he can ride it out by pandering and groveling.

Posted by: JuJuBee at February 10, 2019 07:12 PM (L31Sa)

155 So anyone for longbows vs crossbows?

Posted by: Anna Puma at February 10, 2019 07:12 PM (B1ik8)

156 I think a freed black slave back in the ancient days actually bought lots of land on Oak Island.

Bet they don't teach that in them government skools.

Posted by: Hairyback Guy at February 10, 2019 07:13 PM (Z+IKu)

157 I think Emily's right. I mean, I've been in public cervyx for more than 24 years.

Posted by: Bill Clinton at February 10, 2019 07:13 PM (ZxU8C)

158 #LongbowsForever

Posted by: runner at February 10, 2019 07:13 PM (bUjCl)

159 To hold anyone to account, out of context with their life and times, is simply wrong.

Applying contemporary standards to a different time and place, and pronouncing moral judgement of the actions of historical people, is an indulgence of one's own biases and prejudices, rather than a true unbiased historical perspective. Simply put, it is virtue signaling.

See: Howard Zinn

Posted by: Mike Hammer, etc., etc. at February 10, 2019 07:14 PM (YvUf/)

160
If you watched the Stargate SG1 series, you're familiar with Sam Carter's dad, the guy who ate a 🐍 and became a good goold.

Remember how Sam's dad, the 🐍 , died in the series?

Yeah, he's mort in real life, now.

Posted by: Soothsayer -- Fake Commenter at February 10, 2019 07:15 PM (KYuJa)

161 Just a friendly reminder that this guy is pro-infanticide.

Carry on.

Posted by: chique d'afrique at February 10, 2019 07:15 PM (Sow0v)

162 You hear lots of things about the origins of slavery, but I seem to remember a court in one of the colonies ruled that indentured servitude could be extended indefinitely and that is what made slavery possible. I also seem to remember the ruling was made in a case involving a white person.

At any rate, indentured servitude and slavery may not be quite so separate as we would imagine if any of what I think I remember is true. And certainly, it would show that then, as now, our courts are some of our worst institutions for mucking things up.

Posted by: Thatch at February 10, 2019 07:16 PM (v5Cc/)

163 I think a freed black slave back in the ancient days actually bought lots of land on Oak Island.


He was freed by the British for joining their side in the Revolutionary War. He didn't just graduate from slavery.

Posted by: Bandersnatch at February 10, 2019 07:16 PM (fuK7c)

164 Ok, even if technically the first Africans were indentured servants, it was an incredibly stupid thing for him to say.

Posted by: Duke Lowell at February 10, 2019 07:16 PM (gC2IV)

165 We are stretching my memory here but as I remember it the first group of settlers only had indentured servants. They had to work as a contract spelled out, I think it was individual agreement.
Shortly after that the first slave ship came and that was the start of that importing slaves until importing them ended in early 1800s.

Posted by: Skip at February 10, 2019 07:16 PM (/rm4P)

166 Posted by: Mike Hammer, etc., etc. at February 10, 2019 07:14 PM (YvUf/)

I understand your point, and as I mentioned above, i am not criticizing the Virginia of 1619. I am however criticizing Northam, who is playing a stupid semantic game. They may not have been called slaves because it wasn't the legal term for them in 1619, but the term today is "Slave," because OF COURSE they were slaves!

Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo at February 10, 2019 07:17 PM (wYseH)

167 161 Just a friendly reminder that this guy is pro-infanticide.

Excellent point. Maybe someone should ask him about the infanticide laws of 1619?

Posted by: Adirondack Patriot at February 10, 2019 07:17 PM (ZxU8C)

168 moral issues aside, someone from africa who was forced into indentured servitude in America then freed won the lottery.

Posted by: yankeefifth at February 10, 2019 07:17 PM (MTjB1)

169 Just a friendly reminder that this guy is pro-infanticide.



Carry on.

Posted by: chique d'afrique at February 10, 2019 07:15 PM (Sow0v)


But he's got such a calm estrogen-laden voice, he can't be all bad.

Posted by: I like cookies at February 10, 2019 07:17 PM (xxAFD)

170 Just a friendly reminder that this guy is pro-infanticide.


Yeah. The real horror is that a series of subsequent scandals has chased actual infanticide out of the news.

Posted by: Bandersnatch at February 10, 2019 07:17 PM (fuK7c)

171 When will Governor Northam start removing more confederate monuments to do more atoning for wearing blackface?

Posted by: FenelonSpoke at February 10, 2019 07:18 PM (AllCR)

172 129 What happens is Northam is out and his second is out. Who is third in line ? Or they don't have one and are trying to, um, whitewash Northam ?
Posted by: runner at February 10, 2019 07:07 PM (bUjCl)

The succession in the Commonwealth of Virginia appears to be:
Governor - Incumbent Dem
Lieutenant Governor - Incumbent Dem
Attorney General - Incumbent Dem
Speaker of the House of Delegates - Incumbent Rep

Replacements may be named for the Lt Gov and AG if they die, resign, or become disqualified.

The whole objective is to ensure that the succession never gets to the Speaker of the House of Delegates. The Repubs still hold a majority in both houses of the Commonwealth legislature.

Posted by: Fox2! at February 10, 2019 07:18 PM (MwFQu)

173 If you were a runaway slave, chances were very good that you would be captured and returned to bondage, UNLESS you played a musical instrument.
In which case you could feed yourself, clothe yourself, maybe get along OK, as long as you kept moving.

Posted by: navybrat, sometime commentater at February 10, 2019 07:18 PM (w7KSn)

174 The fact that within a generation actual chattel slavery had been codified makes me wonder why some of y'all are so insistent that it was something else at first, just because it was called something else.

Why the desperate rear guard action?


Because it is true and because every fricken' historian and history book makes the distinction. CBD is disagreeing with literally everyone who has ever written about the subject, so it is hardly a rear-guard action.

I'm kind of bemused to see that some people 1) don't know an elementary point of American history while telling how dumb their political rivals are (and it isn't any more attractive when conservatives do it) and 2) when the error is pointed out continue to try to defend it instead of just admitting to a minor mistake.

Posted by: Grey Fox at February 10, 2019 07:18 PM (bZ7mE)

175 https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anthony_Johnson_(colonist)

First slaveholder



I'm-a go out on a limb and guess the first slaveholder was somebody way over in the Old World, several thousand years ago.

Posted by: Zombie Wm. Tecumseh Sherman at February 10, 2019 07:19 PM (786Ro)

176 It's time we confront this country's 400 legacy of indentured servitude.

Posted by: Mr. Peebles at February 10, 2019 07:19 PM (fTQ1B)

177 @CBD well that's what I wrote, isn't it? Some.

But also read the other things I wrote. I said it would also be accurate to say the first slaves arrived in 1619 in Jamestown because they were slaves of the Portuguese.

And that it isn't a defense of Hitler to say well he didn't kill ALL the Jews.

Slavery is bad. It is a stain on our history. But at the same time I am not for erasing history. It is what it is.

Posted by: blaster at February 10, 2019 07:19 PM (ZfRYq)

178 Just a friendly reminder that this guy is pro-infanticide.

Carry on.
Posted by: chique d'afrique at February 10, 2019 07:15 PM (Sow0v)

------------------------

Agreed. This should have been what hung him, not a freaking blackface pic from 35 years ago.

Posted by: Calm Mentor at February 10, 2019 07:19 PM (ffYR/)

179 I pity the fool who don't listen to Dr T's lectures!

Posted by: andycanuck at February 10, 2019 07:19 PM (Evws/)

180 160 that's sad

Posted by: votermom certified russian matryoshka bot at February 10, 2019 07:20 PM (BJlbN)

181 Yes, there were actual black indentured servants in Virginia in 1619 (400 years ago).

Some of them attained their freedom, which I take as proof the that their servitude was not de facto slavery.

An emancipated black indentured servant was actually the first slave owner in America.

https://unrealfacts.com/the-first-american-slave-owner-was-black/

https://www.encyclopediavirginia.org/Court_Ruling_on_Anthony_Johnson_and_His_Servant_1655

I have no doubt that black indentured servants were horribly exploited at that time. However, they definitely did exist.

Posted by: Pillage Idiot at February 10, 2019 07:20 PM (tkyK5)

182
I'm-a go out on a limb and guess the first slaveholder was somebody way over in the Old World, several thousand years ago.
Posted by: Zombie Wm. Tecumseh S




more likely the first slaveholders were africans.

Posted by: yankeefifth at February 10, 2019 07:20 PM (MTjB1)

183 Sounds like slavery to me.

Indentures were routinely bought and sold as well. Normal procedure was for the captain of a ship to sell them when the ship reached the colonies.

Posted by: Grey Fox at February 10, 2019 07:20 PM (bZ7mE)

184 The first black slaves in the US were sold as indentured servants. They had been taken by pirates from Spanish slave ships. At that point the English didn't have chattel slavery.

Posted by: DonS at February 10, 2019 07:20 PM (HLLA1)

185 From A Patriot's History of the United States by Larry Schweikart and Michael Allen (p. 19):

"The status of the first blacks in the New World remains somewhat mysterious, and any thesis about the change in black status generates sharp controversy. Historian Edmund Morgan, in American Slavery, American Freedom, contended that the first blacks had the same legal status as white indentured servants. Other recent research confirms that the lines blurred between indentures of all colors and slaves, and that establishing clear definitions of exactly who was likely to become a slave proved difficult. At least some white colonists apparently did not distinguish blacks from other servants in their minds, and some early black indentured servants were released at the end of their indentures. Rather than viewing Africa as a source of unlimited labor, English colonists preferred European indentured servants well into the 1670s, even when they came from the ranks of criminals from English jails. But by the 1660s, the southern colonists had slowly altered their attitudes toward Africans. Increasingly, the southerners viewed them as permanent servants, and in 1664 some southern colonies declared slavery hereditary, as it had been in ancient Athens and still was throughout the Muslim world."

So technically Northam may have been right but he's an idiot to think digging his hole any deeper was going to help him get out.

Schweikart and Allen are conservatives, by the way.

Posted by: bluebell at February 10, 2019 07:20 PM (U5tDi)

186 Bezos pics leaked by his mistress' brother.


Heh

Posted by: Ha at February 10, 2019 07:20 PM (MAstk)

187 @Bandersnatch

@CBD

There is a specific difference between slavery and indentured servitude. Saying so is neither "desperate" nor a "rear-guard" action, but a statement of fact. Neither condition was pleasant or fair, but there was a whole range of legal and social consequences stemming from that difference, and some of us are just asking that that be acknowledged.

Besides, everyone is aware that lots of whites found themselves in indentured servitude as well....right?

Posted by: Dr. T at February 10, 2019 07:21 PM (2PXwn)

188 Posted by: Pillage Idiot at February 10, 2019 07:20 PM (tkyK5)

-----------

You're lucky Ace isn't around.

Posted by: Duke Lowell at February 10, 2019 07:21 PM (gC2IV)

189 Okay, so what does hypergamous mean?


Yes, you people living inside my computer are my google.
Posted by: Soothsayer -- Fake Commenter at February 10, 2019 07:11 PM (KYuJa)


it's latin for hyper gamer

Posted by: runner at February 10, 2019 07:21 PM (bUjCl)

190 Only a lying Dem would pretend that the first 25-40 years of Africans being brought to the new world as indentured servants versus about 200 years after that of slavery should be the definition. Really I don't care if Coonman is a maroon or a lying shitweasel.

Posted by: PaleRider is simply irredeemable at February 10, 2019 07:21 PM (jUcoH)

191

Less Filling!

Posted by: Bertram Cabot, Jr. at February 10, 2019 07:21 PM (aKsyK)

192 @Fen SOON.

Rest assured that is an argument Northam would prefer to have.

Posted by: blaster at February 10, 2019 07:22 PM (ZfRYq)

193 would pretend that the first 25-40 years of Africans being brought to the new world as indentured servants versus about 200 years after that of slavery should be the definition. Really I don't care if Coonman is a maroon or a lying shitweasel.
Posted by: PaleRider is simply irredeemable at F




not what he was suggesting.

Posted by: yankeefifth at February 10, 2019 07:22 PM (MTjB1)

194 We never had and we were never slaves slaves.

Posted by: Whoopie Goldberg at February 10, 2019 07:22 PM (P+Keb)

195 Tastes great!

Posted by: Duke Lowell at February 10, 2019 07:22 PM (gC2IV)

196 "hypergamous" means "many-legged" in French. Ask Ace.

Posted by: andycanuck at February 10, 2019 07:22 PM (Evws/)

197 Agreed. This should have been what hung him, not a freaking blackface pic from 35 years ago.
Posted by: Calm Mentor at February 10, 2019 07:19 PM (ffYR/)


THIS.

Posted by: Dr. T at February 10, 2019 07:22 PM (2PXwn)

198 Just a friendly reminder that this guy is pro-infanticide.

Carry on.
Posted by: chique d'afrique at February 10, 2019 07:15 PM (Sow0v)
---------

And THAT is why he should be given the boot. I can't for the life of me see how a pediatrician, who cares for babies the second they are born forward, can be okay with this. He's a ghoul.

Posted by: bluebell at February 10, 2019 07:23 PM (U5tDi)

199 Okay, so what does hypergamous mean?

Yes, you people living inside my computer are my google.
Posted by: Soothsayer



In the end, The Paolo always gets the girl.

Posted by: Hands at February 10, 2019 07:24 PM (786Ro)

200 179 I pity the fool who don't listen to Dr T's lectures!
Posted by: andycanuck at February 10, 2019 07:19 PM (Evws/)


:-D

Posted by: Dr. T at February 10, 2019 07:24 PM (2PXwn)

201 do you think it is embarrassing to find out that your black slave ancestors were owned by blacks?

Posted by: yankeefifth at February 10, 2019 07:25 PM (MTjB1)

202 196 "hypergamous" means "many-legged" in French. Ask Ace.
Posted by: andycanuck at February 10, 2019 07:22 PM (Evws/)


So that's the French word for centipede?

Posted by: rickl at February 10, 2019 07:25 PM (sdi6R)

203 Posted by: chique d'afrique at February 10, 2019 07:07 PM (Sow0v)

"Blaster" suggests that at least some were able to earn their freedom. But unless all of them were bale to earn their freedom, they were slaves.

I can't believe that I am arguing this point.
Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo at February 10, 2019 07:08 PM (wYseH)

My first thought is that if someone, black or white, was kidnapped and forced to serve someone, that is slavery for all intents and purposes.

But here's the definition from Wikipedia:
An indentured servant or indentured laborer is an employee (indenturee) within a system of unfree labor who is bound by a signed or forced contract (indenture) to work for a particular employer for a fixed time. The contract often lets the employer sell the labor of an indenturee to a third party. Indenturees usually enter into an indenture for a specific payment or other benefit, or to meet a legal obligation, such as debt bondage.
----

Seems there is typically some element of consent or at least obligation.

I am not a historian, though. This is just my opinion.

Posted by: chique d'afrique at February 10, 2019 07:25 PM (9hauA)

204 Posted by: blaster at February 10, 2019 07:22 PM (ZfRYq)

I wish people would be marching on the statehouse with lots of signs about his view on infanticide.

Posted by: FenelonSpoke at February 10, 2019 07:26 PM (AllCR)

205 179 I pity the fool who don't listen to Dr T's lectures!
Posted by: andycanuck at February 10, 2019 07:19 PM (Evws/)
:-D
Posted by: Dr. T at February 10, 2019 07:24 PM (2PXwn)

I like Mr. & Mrs. T's Bloody Mary mix....does that count?

Posted by: Hairyback Guy at February 10, 2019 07:26 PM (Z+IKu)

206 I am pretty sure slave ships brought slaves, not indentured servants, a person tied to a indentured servitude had to have a overseer to whom labor was owed or from a third party person. Can't see how a African could get here as a indentured servant unless owned by someone who sold their labor out to another.

Posted by: Skip at February 10, 2019 07:26 PM (/rm4P)

207 Jacob Carter (Gen, USAF) was host to the To'kra symbiote Selmak, not a Goa'uld parasite.

RIP, Carmen Argenziano.

Yes, I am being pedantic, as To'kra and Goa'uld were the same species.

Posted by: Fox2! at February 10, 2019 07:26 PM (MwFQu)

208 So that's the French word for centipede?
Posted by: rickl at February 10, 2019 07:25 PM



Apéritif

Posted by: Hands at February 10, 2019 07:27 PM (786Ro)

209 Besides, everyone is aware that lots of whites found themselves in indentured servitude as well....right?

I think that something like a quarter of the White population that arrived here prior to the Revolution did so as an indentured servant. Very, very common, in any case.

Incidentally, criminals who were transported here in lieu of being hanged were sold into indentured servitude to pay their way, I think. No choice in the matter, unless you count the gallows as a choice...

Posted by: Grey Fox at February 10, 2019 07:27 PM (bZ7mE)

210 dammit pixy

Posted by: Hands at February 10, 2019 07:27 PM (786Ro)

211 so hypergamous is not latin for restless leg thingy?

Posted by: yankeefifth at February 10, 2019 07:27 PM (MTjB1)

212 203 Good to know I tried to pay attention in school.

Posted by: Skip at February 10, 2019 07:28 PM (/rm4P)

213 My head is still reeling from my kids schools celebration of Black History month and their expectation that kids this week supposed to dress up as their favorite famous black person it wrong on on about 10 levels, one of which is the idiot patronizing of famous black Americans. How can the administration come up with dumb ideas like this and not have somebody point out the idiocy?

Posted by: Ripley at February 10, 2019 07:28 PM (NbRJx)

214 @Fen there were.

What? You mean the news didn't cover it?

This is my shocked face.

Posted by: blaster at February 10, 2019 07:28 PM (ZfRYq)

215 If you watched the Stargate SG1 series, you're familiar with Sam Carter's dad, the guy who ate a and became a good goold.

Remember how Sam's dad, the , died in the series?

Yeah, he's mort in real life, now.
Posted by: Soothsayer -- Fake Commenter at February 10, 2019 07:15 PM (KYuJa)

RIP, Selmak. Glad to know, though, that Sam's still alive and kicking, and looking as good as ever.

Posted by: No One of Consequence at February 10, 2019 07:28 PM (8g9zh)

216 The guy to argue about who is a slave and who is almost one really isn't the guy in the middle of a blackface scandal.

Posted by: Mr. Peebles at February 10, 2019 07:28 PM (fTQ1B)

217 I am learning a lot from this thread. Very interesting.

Posted by: chique d'afrique at February 10, 2019 07:28 PM (9hauA)

218 :-D

Posted by: Dr. T at February 10, 2019 07:24 PM (2PXwn)

Posted by: andycanuck at February 10, 2019 07:29 PM (Evws/)

219 Seems there is typically some element of consent or at least obligation.

I am not a historian, though. This is just my opinion.
Posted by: chique d'afrique at February 10, 2019 07:25 PM (9hauA)


chique, I am a historian and that is exactly the point.

Now in all fairness, some people (white and black) were kidnapped and sold into indentured servitude, or not given much of a choice--in England, for example, a beggar or criminal would be hauled before a judge and told, "Door #1 is you go to one of our lovely and oh-so-healthful prisons; Door #2 is you go to America as an indentured servant; you pick." But there is a contract and a time limit to go along in all these cases, which makes it an order of magnitude different from slavery.

Posted by: Dr. T at February 10, 2019 07:30 PM (2PXwn)

220 I wish people would be marching on the statehouse with lots of signs about his view on infanticide.
Posted by: FenelonSpoke at February 10, 2019 07:26 PM (AllCR)

Why? Practically nobody in the Statehouse cares what the plebs think.

Posted by: Surfperch at February 10, 2019 07:30 PM (tVQUs)

221 Posted by: blaster at February 10, 2019 07:28 PM (ZfRYq)

Glad to hear that they marched. Sorry it wasn't covered but not surprised.

Posted by: FenelonSpoke at February 10, 2019 07:31 PM (AllCR)

222 I understand your point, and as I mentioned above, i am not criticizing the Virginia of 1619. I am however criticizing Northam, who is playing a stupid semantic game. They may not have been called slaves because it wasn't the legal term for them in 1619, but the term today is "Slave," because OF COURSE they were slaves!

Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo
-------

Well, that was only a generalized observation, rather than a reference to Northam.

Northam, et al, have cooked up their own stew, and I relish watching them squirm. In a kitchen overpopulated with Democrat cooks, it was bound to happen sooner or later.

Things have degraded to a point that I do not mind sneaking some fuel onto their fire, even if the source of fuel is a bit dubious. I'm adopting their own standard, 'It only has to be said'.

I marvel at just how dull many Democrat politicians are. Our own (NC) Gov. Roy Cooper makes absurd assertions all of the time. The nodding-donkey media stand about scribbling in their notebooks, eager to treat each word as received wisdom.

Aww. Crap. I'm still a little delirious with the flu. Can't even follow my own thoughts.

Posted by: Mike Hammer, etc., etc. at February 10, 2019 07:31 PM (YvUf/)

223 My head is still reeling from my kids schools celebration of Black History month and their expectation that kids this week supposed to dress up as their favorite famous black person


==

wrong and reeks of indoctrination, but...tempting - a pair of boxing gloves - Muhammad Ali!

Posted by: runner at February 10, 2019 07:31 PM (bUjCl)

224 some of us are just asking that that be acknowledged.


Besides, everyone is aware that lots of whites found themselves in indentured servitude as well....right?


Posted by: Dr. T at February 10, 2019 07:21 PM (2PXwn)


I understand that, and acknowledge it. But a poor farmer in the Scottish lowlands who indentures himself for seven years to get to the New World is a far cry from the Black man who is kidnapped from his tribe, marched to an Atlantic port, sold to a Spanish slaver, then sold again to a Virginia farmer, who then calls him an indentured servant.

Once again, I am not criticizing Virginia circa 1619, I am criticizing Northam for not calling slavery by its proper name.


Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo at February 10, 2019 07:31 PM (wYseH)

225 213 My head is still reeling from my kids schools celebration of Black History month and their expectation that kids this week supposed to dress up as their favorite famous black person it wrong on on about 10 levels, one of which is the idiot patronizing of famous black Americans. How can the administration come up with dumb ideas like this and not have somebody point out the idiocy?
Posted by: Ripley at February 10, 2019 07:28 PM (NbRJx)


We learned in the book thread that whites culturally appropriated blackface from the Native Americans.

It's intersectionality all the way down.

Posted by: rickl at February 10, 2019 07:32 PM (sdi6R)

226
& #128013
remove the space
That's the code for 🐍

Posted by: Soothsayer -- Fake Commenter at February 10, 2019 07:33 PM (KYuJa)

227 (or Mike Tyson...)

Posted by: runner at February 10, 2019 07:33 PM (bUjCl)

228 I have mentioned before that my Grandparents came to this country as indentured servants to the Sunshine Farm in Alabama. I have copies of their contract.

Posted by: Ben Had at February 10, 2019 07:33 PM (kw9ZZ)

229
🐍 Don't Tread On Me 🐍

Posted by: Soothsayer -- Fake Commenter at February 10, 2019 07:33 PM (KYuJa)

230 Zombie Wm. Tecumseh Sherman at February 10, 2019 07:19 PM (786Ro)

I've known about Anthony Johnson for years. He was the first legal SLAVE-OWNER in Virginia. Established by a Virginia court.

Posted by: Grannymimi at February 10, 2019 07:34 PM (u5LFV)

231 Now in all fairness, some people (white and black) were kidnapped and sold into indentured servitude, or not given much of a choice--in England, for example, a beggar or criminal would be hauled before a judge and told, "Door #1 is you go to one of our lovely and oh-so-healthful prisons; Door #2 is you go to America as an indentured servant; you pick." But there is a contract and a time limit to go along in all these cases, which makes it an order of magnitude different from slavery.
Posted by: Dr. T at February 10, 2019 07:30 PM (2PXwn)

Thanks for the information.

In my mind, there's a lot of difference between a debtor or criminal being forced into indentured servitude and a person being kidnapped and forced to serve another, even for a limited time. The latter, in my opinion, is more akin to slavery, even if it does not meet the exact definition.

They're both pretty awful, though.

Posted by: chique d'afrique at February 10, 2019 07:34 PM (9hauA)

232

Hi-PER-gah-mus

Posted by: Soothsayer -- Fake Commenter at February 10, 2019 07:34 PM (KYuJa)

233 Fen, there is going to be a March for Life in Richmond, VA on April 3.

https://tinyurl.com/y579fltb

Posted by: bluebell at February 10, 2019 07:35 PM (U5tDi)

234 Posted by: Surfperch at February 10, 2019 07:30 PM (tVQUs)

Does it matter what the Statehouse thinks. People do march it -and evidently did- because it's the right thing to do. Someone is organizing a march in Albany except Albany is too far and I can't go. I expect the NJ legislature will approve infanticide if they haven't already and the news has just been covered up-but I get e-mails from the Tea Party-many of whom are conservative Catholic and we will be there in prostest.

Posted by: FenelonSpoke at February 10, 2019 07:35 PM (AllCR)

235 I have copies of their contract.

Posted by: Ben Had at February 10, 2019 07:33 PM (kw9ZZ)

Wow.

Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo at February 10, 2019 07:35 PM (wYseH)

236 " 'Virginia needs someone that can heal. There's no better person to do that than a doctor,' he told CBS News "


That's Northam from the interview. He's going to make VA comfortable while he and the Dems "heal" it.

Posted by: Hands at February 10, 2019 07:35 PM (786Ro)

237 & #128013
remove the space
That's the code for 🐍
Posted by: Soothsayer -- Fake Commenter at February 10, 2019 07:33 PM (KYuJa)

---------------------------

Are you suggesting I need to learn to code?!

Posted by: No One of Consequence at February 10, 2019 07:36 PM (8g9zh)

238 So what's the French word for centipede?
-----
centipieds!
(Actually 'mille-pattes')

Posted by: andycanuck at February 10, 2019 07:36 PM (Evws/)

239 Posted by: bluebell at February 10, 2019 07:35 PM (U5tDi)

Glad to hear that!!

Posted by: FenelonSpoke at February 10, 2019 07:36 PM (AllCR)

240 Chique got me interested now.
Looking for first slave ships to new world explains the Portuguese started importing slave to South America as labor on plantations. The first Africans brought to America were considered indentured servants but that didn't last to long as outright slaves were brought directly here.

Posted by: Skip at February 10, 2019 07:36 PM (/rm4P)

241
I understand that, and acknowledge it. But a poor farmer in the Scottish lowlands who indentures himself for seven years to get to the New World is a far cry from the Black man who is kidnapped from his tribe, marched to an Atlantic port, sold to a Spanish slaver, then sold again to a Virginia farmer, who then calls him an indentured servant.

Once again, I am not criticizing Virginia circa 1619, I am criticizing Northam for not calling slavery by its proper name.

Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo at February 10, 2019 07:31 PM (wYseH)

My thoughts, but more eloquently stated.

Posted by: chique d'afrique at February 10, 2019 07:36 PM (9hauA)

242
Are we at the stage in the Northam or Fairfax farce when Al Franken's staff of a dozen women write a letter of support for the men?

Posted by: Soothsayer -- Fake Commenter at February 10, 2019 07:36 PM (KYuJa)

243 mille-pattes ? I thought that's the word for those pastel macaroons ...

Posted by: runner at February 10, 2019 07:37 PM (bUjCl)

244 'Virginia needs someone that can heal. There's no better person to do that than a doctor,' he told CBS News "

And by "heal," he mean scissors to the nape of your neck.

Posted by: Circa (Insert Year Here) at February 10, 2019 07:37 PM (vE2Ex)

245


That's Northam from the interview. He's going to make VA comfortable while he and the Dems "heal" it.



He's going to make the Va D Party comfortable while the voters decide what to do with it.

Posted by: Mr. Peebles at February 10, 2019 07:37 PM (fTQ1B)

246 The latter, in my opinion, is more akin to slavery, even if it does not meet the exact definition.

Posted by: chique d'afrique at February 10, 2019 07:34 PM (9hauA)

I think you are being too polite.

Blaster provided a link that suggests that some of these people were eventually able to win their freedom.


But not all, which means that some or most were de facto slaves. So calling them indentured servants because a few of them were able to gain their freedom is, frankly, disgusting.

Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo at February 10, 2019 07:37 PM (wYseH)

247 CBD, one of my cousins did a real history dive about the family and made a book for all of us. It included ship manifests and how long it took to pay off the debt.

Posted by: Ben Had at February 10, 2019 07:38 PM (kw9ZZ)

248 An historical question, was a sitting Gov of Virginia ever successfully impeached ?

Posted by: runner at February 10, 2019 07:39 PM (bUjCl)

249
Virginia needs someone that can heal.

Get her a dog.

Posted by: Bertram Cabot, Jr. at February 10, 2019 07:39 PM (aKsyK)

250 I understand that, and acknowledge it. But a poor farmer in the Scottish lowlands who indentures himself for seven years to get to the New World is a far cry from the Black man who is kidnapped from his tribe, marched to an Atlantic port, sold to a Spanish slaver, then sold again to a Virginia farmer, who then calls him an indentured servant.

Once again, I am not criticizing Virginia circa 1619, I am criticizing Northam for not calling slavery by its proper name.


Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo at February 10, 2019 07:31 PM (wYseH)


I get that, but it's not that simple. Re my comment above, lots of whites were kidnapped and sold into servitude as well. At the same time, some black servants definitely learned the system well enough to acquire property and win court cases after they were freed. And while there needs to be more scholarship on this point, at least a few of these guys were not coming out of the heart of Africa proper, but from the Caribbean or from African ports that saw a lot of contact from whites, so it's more plausible that some could have entered the condition voluntarily.

My point--and this is the last thing I'll say about it--is that in practical, day-to-day terms, there wasn't a lot to separate the condition of slaves and indentured servants, but in terms of their legal status and the long-term results, there definitely was. It may have been like slavery, but it wasn't slavery.

Either way, I think we can agree that Ralph Northam is a bastard son-of-a-bitch who will burn in hell for endorsing child murder.

Posted by: Dr. T at February 10, 2019 07:39 PM (2PXwn)

251 Yes, Virginia, There IS An Impeachment Clause

Posted by: Mr. Peebles at February 10, 2019 07:40 PM (fTQ1B)

252
Speaking of weak-kneed pro-lifers...

Rick Santorum is still doing fake news cnn.


Posted by: Soothsayer -- Fake Commenter at February 10, 2019 07:40 PM (KYuJa)

253
Santorum is still cucky enough for cnn.

Posted by: Soothsayer -- Fake Commenter at February 10, 2019 07:41 PM (KYuJa)

254 @253 reading that fast looks, umm, weird

Posted by: blaster at February 10, 2019 07:42 PM (ZfRYq)

255 But not all, which means that some or most were de facto slaves. So calling them indentured servants because a few of them were able to gain their freedom is, frankly, disgusting.

You do realize that saying "some" can mean that we just don't know what happened to the others, right? They may have died prior to their term being up. They may have been freed and the documentation just didn't survive.

Northam is right to call them indentured servants, because that is the legal contract under which they were sold. He would in fact be incorrect to call them "slaves," and while you may feel that it is a distinction without a difference that doesn't change the facts.

Posted by: Grey Fox at February 10, 2019 07:43 PM (bZ7mE)

256 I think we can agree that Ralph Northam is a bastard son-of-a-bitch who will burn in hell for endorsing child murder.

Posted by: Dr. T at February 10, 2019 07:39 PM (2PXwn)

Oh yes...I am absolutely in agreement.

Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo at February 10, 2019 07:43 PM (wYseH)

257 Nobody said NOOD gub.

Posted by: blaster at February 10, 2019 07:44 PM (ZfRYq)

258 I have read information that concurs with a couple previous commenters. Originally as indentured, a person had gone to court to be relieved of his servitude, as his time had expired but the master wished to retain him indefinitely. The judgement went for the master and the precedent was etched. This occured in Virginia i believe. I dont recall particulars or the year, but was in 1600s

Problems with judges and lawyers are eternal.

Posted by: Jk at February 10, 2019 07:44 PM (NjctT)

259 254 @253 reading that fast looks, umm, weird
Posted by: blaster at February 10, 2019 07:42 PM (ZfRYq)


Glad you said it and not me.

Posted by: Dr. T at February 10, 2019 07:44 PM (2PXwn)

260 Ok, we are way past 100, so I can go OT.

I want to say a big thank you to bluebell, Weasel and their spouses, and Ben Had for organizing a wonderful MoMe.

It was also wonderful to meet Bander, Via and the lovely Mrs VIA, Hogmartin, and Physics Geek, among others.

It was great to see again CBD, NGU, ATC, Washington Nearsider, Vendette, All Hail Eris, no good deed, Hrothgar, Wierddave, Gingy.

I know I left some names out. Forgive me, as I am functioning on only a few hours of sleep. I'm going to take a nap and will pop in to say hi later.

Posted by: chique d'afrique at February 10, 2019 07:44 PM (9hauA)

261 Dennis Prager can't forgive him for a commercial made on by his behalf projecting racial animosity on his opponent.

Posted by: Skip at February 10, 2019 07:45 PM (/rm4P)

262 Yes, Virginia, There IS An Impeachment Clause
Posted by: Mr. Peebles at February 10, 2019 07:40 PM (fTQ1B)

--------------------------

As I understand it, only for acts committed while in office, not before.

Posted by: Calm Mentor at February 10, 2019 07:46 PM (ffYR/)

263 And isn't also true that 400-500 years ago just as now it was the Muslims who were the primary slave traders? The group that would kidnap africans or buy kidnap victims. And the western world decided slavery was wrong, the muzzies have still not gotten to that point.

Posted by: PaleRider is simply irredeemable at February 10, 2019 07:47 PM (jUcoH)

264 I'm so glad you came, chique, and so glad you got back home safely!

Posted by: bluebell at February 10, 2019 07:48 PM (U5tDi)

265 chique, I had no part in the organization. All credit goes to bluebell, Weasel, and Washington Nearsider. And a very fine job it was.

Posted by: Ben Had at February 10, 2019 07:48 PM (kw9ZZ)

266 I wish there was a lot more attention given to the fact that Muslims from Africa raided Europe and kidnapped and enslaved white people for centuries.

That certainly doesn't excuse the treatment of Africans, but it would put some balance on the whole discussion of slavery.

But in today's world, it's like it never even happened.

Posted by: rickl at February 10, 2019 07:48 PM (sdi6R)

267 Northam is right to call them indentured servants,
because that is the legal contract under which they were sold.

Posted by: Grey Fox at February 10, 2019 07:43 PM (bZ7mE)

I will refer you to the sophisticated an oh-so-modern German legal system of 1938 to try to convince you that a legal definition can be a very bad thing.

I freely accept that Blacks were sometimes (often) called "indentured servants" because there was no other term. But in the main (with exceptions that I also accept) they were treated as slaves.

So using "indentured servants" to describe them is disingenuous.

Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo at February 10, 2019 07:48 PM (wYseH)

268 Skip, what do you mean?

Is Dennis Prager interviewed in the Northam piece?
If so, that would encourage me to watch it...

Posted by: qdpsteve at February 10, 2019 07:50 PM (miE9U)

269 Northam has no history--and no math either. Virginia was colonized in may ~1608--not 1619. So we're well past the "400th anniversary" of Virginia. And indnetures servants were largely English--and certainly white--not African. Can't figure out which of these players is dumber.

Posted by: Comanche Voter at February 10, 2019 07:50 PM (WRSbt)

270 I believe the distinction between indentured servitude and slavery is NOT merely semantic, it is important for the following reason: it demonstrates that colonial America did not jump immediately into embracing chattel slavery and defending it as an inalienable right as the 1850s Southern Fire Eaters did. It was a gradual process of stretching the law that existed at the time in order to justify and expand an evil practice.... not unlike the process of moving from "safe, legal and rare" abortion only in hard cases and only before viability, to full on infanticide in the space of 40-50 years. It happened before, and it's happening again to a certain extent.

Posted by: Secret Square at February 10, 2019 07:50 PM (9WuX0)

271 being dumber than a rock is a big no-no for governors of American states.

===
Seems to be a resume enhancer in some states.

Posted by: antisocialist at February 10, 2019 07:51 PM (2shuf)

272 145 Serious question, in case no one has covered this. How did the indentured African slaves get here?
Posted by: chique d'afrique


The story, from its beginning, goes like this:

Slavery existed as an institution in Europe for millennia, and had nothing to do with "race" -- for example, when ROme conquered Greece in 164 BC, the Romans enslaved tens of thousands of Greeks and brought them back to Italy. And when the conquered what is now Yugoslavia, the captured and enslaved the local inhabitants, who happened to be called "Slavs", and from this name we actually get the word "slave" in English.

Things went on like this for about 3,000 years, with each tribe enslaving conquered neighboring tribes, until the 700s AD, when the Arabs, having conpletely vanquished the entire Middle East, set their sights southward and began sailing form the Red Sea down the eats coast of Africa.

There, they discovered African tribes, which the Arabs thought would be a great source for new slaves.

Just as in Europe, the various African tribes were at each others' throats historically, and so the Arabs diabolically played the tribes of each other, and began paying various tribes to capture their neighbors, and then bring them to the coast and sell them to the Arabs.

Hence were born the East African slave ports, such as Zanzibar, etc., and the language of Swahili, which was a pidgin version of Arabic so black slave-traders could communicate with the Arabs who were buying the chattel.

This went on for 700 years, until 1410, when Portuguese explorers discovered that there was a "bottom" to Africa, which they dubbed the Cape of Good Hope, and for the first time sailed from Portugal down the West Coast of Africa, around the bottom, and up the East Coast.

Once there, they encountered the Arabs and their slave trade in Africans, which up until that time had not really even been a practice of the Europeans.

But the Portuguese reasoned they need cheap labor for their new colonies, first on islands in the Atlantic, and after 1494, for Brazil. So the Portuguese at first started buying African slaves from the Arabs, and eventually cut out the middleman and began buying slaves directly from the African tribes in the interior, and shipping them off to Brazil.

The Spanish were not to be outdone by their rivals, so they too then began buying slaves in Africa and shipping them to the New World. And so an arms race began, with next the French,m then the Dutch, and finally the English joining in on the slave trade to get free labor for their colonial farms.

At some point, possibly in the mid 1700s-ish, the Europeans got the nerve to go into the interior of Africa themselves, and capture their own slaves, and not deal with the tribal middlemen.

So, to answer your question: In the early 1600s, slave from Africa reached American via this route:

-- Rival African tribes battled each other, an the winners captured the losers, and brought them to the coast.
-- Once at the coast, they were sold to European slavers, who loaded them on primitive ships and carted them across the Atlantic.
-- Once in the Americas, they could be re-sold and moved around, as labor requirements on various islands and colonies grew and ebbed.

Later in history, some Europeans captured slaves directly, but I think that was still a rarity in the early 1600s.

Posted by: zombie at February 10, 2019 07:52 PM (c+2jX)

273

Slavery existed as an institution in Europe for millennia, and had nothing to do with "race"


*blinks*

I was told the United States is the only country ever to have slavery.

Posted by: Hadrian the Seventh at February 10, 2019 07:54 PM (LsBY9)

274 I freely accept that Blacks were sometimes (often) called "indentured servants" because there was no other term. But in the main (with exceptions that I also accept) they were treated as slaves.

So using "indentured servants" to describe them is disingenuous.

The first ones were indentured servants. Over the course of the 1600s the courts changed the status so that later ones were chattel slaves.

Calling them "indentured servants" is correct, but probably not smart for the VA gov considering the political optics.

Posted by: DonS at February 10, 2019 07:55 PM (HLLA1)

275
I freely accept that Blacks were sometimes (often) called "indentured servants" because there was no other term. But in the main (with exceptions that I also accept) they were treated as slaves.

So using "indentured servants" to describe them is disingenuous.


You have yet to give any evidence that the the first shipload of black indentured servants to Virginia was treated any differently than white indentured servants. All you have advanced so far is the argument accepted historical consensus should be considered wrong based on your own definition of terms, a whole lot of assumptions about what actually happened, plus a couple insults and references to Nazism (see Godwin's Law).

It is fairly minor point in the great scheme of things, but the simple fact of the matter is that Northam was correct to call them indentured servants, and your criticism of his use of the term is wrong.

Posted by: Grey Fox at February 10, 2019 07:57 PM (bZ7mE)

276 Zombie, When Charles II married into the Portuguese court did that enable the slave trade in England?

Posted by: Ben Had at February 10, 2019 07:57 PM (kw9ZZ)

Posted by: Soothsayer -- Fake Commenter at February 10, 2019 07:58 PM (KYuJa)

278 Off italics!

Posted by: Grey Fox at February 10, 2019 07:58 PM (bZ7mE)

279 zombie,

The earlier blacks brought in as indentured servants in English north America would have been seized by Dutch or English pirates from Spanish or Portuguese ships.

Posted by: DonS at February 10, 2019 07:58 PM (HLLA1)

280
I'm going in the gub thread above.

If anyone wants to see Jeannie in her undies, come upstairs.

Posted by: Soothsayer -- Fake Commenter at February 10, 2019 07:59 PM (KYuJa)

281 >>Posted by: zombie at February 10, 2019 07:52 PM (c+2jX)



You left out the NFL.

Posted by: Lebron James at February 10, 2019 08:00 PM (zdozD)

282 279 zombie,

The earlier blacks brought in as indentured servants in English north America would have been seized by Dutch or English pirates from Spanish or Portuguese ships.
Posted by: DonS


A HA! Interesting but crucial detail. That explains a lot.

Yes, as a side-note to the story in 272: Much of early Caribbean/Atlantic piracy was for the purpose of capturing slaves, not "treasure."

Posted by: zombie at February 10, 2019 08:01 PM (c+2jX)

283 "I was told the United States was the only country ever to have slavery"

Another interesting tidbit from the Wikipedia article: only 3.7% of all the slaves taken from Africa in the 16th through 19th centuries went to North America. At least 40% ended up in Brazil; another 15-20% went to the Carribean.

Posted by: Secret Square at February 10, 2019 08:02 PM (9WuX0)

284 Northam was correct to call them indentured servants, but it was stupid of him. It is an easy point to attack him on, since most are ignorant of the history.

Posted by: DonS at February 10, 2019 08:03 PM (HLLA1)

285 276 Zombie, When Charles II married into the Portuguese court did that enable the slave trade in England?
Posted by: Ben Had


Not sure on the details of that marriage, or its historical significance.

Posted by: zombie at February 10, 2019 08:03 PM (c+2jX)

286 We lost our false teeth.

Posted by: Northam's Undentured Servants at February 10, 2019 08:04 PM (cCxiu)

287 Great comment, zombie, but I'd go back further.

Slavery began in prehistoric times when a strong man realized that he could force a weaker man to do his bidding under the threat of physical violence.

Posted by: rickl at February 10, 2019 08:05 PM (sdi6R)

288
Zombie, if you're still here, what do you know about the possibility of John Walker Lindh, "the misguided Marin County hot-tubber," being released this year?

Posted by: Soothsayer -- Fake Commenter at February 10, 2019 08:06 PM (KYuJa)

289 288
Zombie, if you're still here, what do you know about the possibility of John Walker Lindh, "the misguided Marin County hot-tubber," being released this year?
Posted by: Soothsayer


I remain blissfully uninformed as to that possibly. If he does indeed get out, it would be a travesty of justice!! But I haven't heard anything about it.

Posted by: zombie at February 10, 2019 08:09 PM (c+2jX)

290 The book 1493 (The Americas after Columbus (I think)) has a detailed explanation of slavery in South America. Truly horrific.

One other point from that book was that Africans had immunity to tropical diseases, and so more of them survived than the European settlers in North America. The five year survival rate of British colonists in Jamestown was something like 25%. So three out of four colonists died of malaria, yellow fever, etc. Given that my ancestors came over with Lord De La Warr to save Jamestown, it's astonishing that any of us are still here.

Posted by: Beltway Elite at February 10, 2019 08:10 PM (b6kHD)

291 No, none of those slaves were freed after a set term of servitude. You can call it anything you want, but these people did not enter into an agreement to exchange their labor for some remuneration, for a set period, after which they would be freed.

They went from being Spanish slaves to being English indentured servants. That's a pretty big improvement.

They would have been well aware of the Arab and Port slave trades, and as history shows some of them adopted quite well to English north America.

Posted by: DonS at February 10, 2019 08:11 PM (HLLA1)

292
Well, it's possible Lindh can be released in 2019 after serving 17 out of his 20 year sentence -- not paroled, but released with 15% reduced because of the fed's policy of "good behavior" or something.

But no one is talking about it...

Posted by: Soothsayer -- Fake Commenter at February 10, 2019 08:12 PM (KYuJa)

293 1. The logic of abortion is the logic of slavery: you're my property.

2. Indentured servitude is outlawed today as a form of slavery due to the desperation involved. It seems like minimization to call it servanthood. If someone captured you and forced you to work for your freedom, you would call it slavery. I would.

3. I'm sure black Democrats don't want him to resign, given the line of succession. And further, he has promised to enact the NAACP's legislative agenda to keep his job. As I joked, Northam is now Al Sharpton's indentured servant for the next three years.

Posted by: The Gipper Lives at February 10, 2019 08:18 PM (Ndje9)

294 2. Indentured servitude is outlawed today as a form of slavery due to the desperation involved. It seems like minimization to call it servanthood. If someone captured you and forced you to work for your freedom, you would call it slavery. I would.

Which STILL doesn't make Northam incorrect.

Posted by: Grey Fox at February 10, 2019 08:22 PM (bZ7mE)

295 Actually, Northam is technically correct. The first Africans entered America as indentured servants. Many, through the mid-1600s, achieved release from their indentured status.

Now here's where this becomes really interesting. The FIRST person to be recognized as holding an African in perpetual slavery in the colony was, wait for it, a former indentured servant of African origin named Anthony Johnson.

YES, THE FIRST SLAVEHOLDER IN THE COLONIES WAS A FORMER AFRICAN INDENTURED SERVANT.

I'm surprised this isn't common knowledge at this point.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anthony_Johnson_(colonist)

Posted by: WarEagle82 at February 10, 2019 08:23 PM (+Kpte)

296 ...or refuses to concede the importance of entomology in any linguistic endeavor?

Posted by: yankeefifth at February 10, 2019 07:01 PM (MTjB1)


Something's bugging me about your comment.

Posted by: I like cookies at February 10, 2019 07:04 PM (xxAFD)

* golf clap *

Posted by: Retired Buckeye Cop is now an engineer at February 10, 2019 08:30 PM (5Yee7)

297 400 year anniversary

Or "400th anniversary" as English speakers would say.

"Anniversary" MEANS "yearly observance." Same root as "annual."

I'd say "English teachers weep," but in 2019 most English teachers probably don't know this either. Pretty soon we'll be communicating with grunts and clicks.

Posted by: Deplorable Jay Guevara at February 10, 2019 08:32 PM (YqDXo)

298 Slavery was practiced by almost everybody throughout history until it was ended by white people, specifically Christians.

It still exists today in some forms. mostly in Muslim Africa and Communist Asia. Sexual slavery is still around even here, usually by organized crime and cartels.

To abandon borders and even the very concept of citizenship is to embrace all these pathologies.

Posted by: The Gipper Lives at February 10, 2019 08:33 PM (Ndje9)

299 Well, it's possible Lindh can be released in 2019 after serving 17 out of his 20 year sentence -- not paroled, but released with 15% reduced because of the fed's policy of "good behavior" or something.

Can we execute him then?

Posted by: Deplorable Jay Guevara at February 10, 2019 08:34 PM (YqDXo)

300 English teachers haven't necessarily known a lot of English for quite a long time. In an English comp in college in 1980 I had to argue with a GTA teaching a class as to the existence of the word "ice floe." She ASSURED me it was NOT an actual word though I had been using it for many years throughout high school AP English. She overruled me and docked my grade over this. The first known use of the term in English was in 1819.

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/ice%20floe

Posted by: WarEagle82 at February 10, 2019 08:36 PM (+Kpte)

301 Posted by: WarEagle82 at February 10, 2019 08:36 PM (+Kpte)

One of Guevara spawn had an English teacher in HS who routinely handed out vocabulary sheets with risible errors, of the ilk of saying "flammable" and "inflammable" were antonyms.

She also had a life-size cutout of Our Dusky Lord and Savior, Barack I, if that gives you a hint.

Posted by: Deplorable Jay Guevara at February 10, 2019 08:39 PM (YqDXo)

302 YES, THE FIRST SLAVEHOLDER IN THE COLONIES WAS A FORMER AFRICAN INDENTURED SERVANT.

I'm surprised this isn't common knowledge at this point.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anthony_Johnson_(colonist)
Posted by: WarEagle82 at February 10, 2019 08:23 PM (+Kpte)


To use the term 'slave' or recognized as legally equivalent.

I believe there was a previous case that a black indentured servant, after being sued, was fined a life long indenture. But, it wasn't "slavery".


A comprehensive world history on slavery would be interesting. I don't know if any had ever been published. A principle feature of the history would be shying away from calling it 'slavery', especially when it comes to citizens.

Posted by: Burnt Toast at February 10, 2019 08:42 PM (1g7ch)

303 YES, THE FIRST SLAVEHOLDER IN THE COLONIES WAS A FORMER AFRICAN INDENTURED SERVANT.


And you won't believe what happened next...

Posted by: American History at February 10, 2019 08:43 PM (786Ro)

304

Anthony Johnson was wrong!

Posted by: Olsen Johnson at February 10, 2019 08:44 PM (aKsyK)

305 "33 Northam was right but agreed with King anyway."

Indulging Gayle King's stupidity and profound ignorance is the least of the punishments Ralph Northam will endure to hang onto the governorship. Among other horrific aspects of his probation, Northam has to read Ta-Nehisi Coates and pretend it is insightful and profound.


White Democrats should look at the self-abasement of Northam and tremble, but most of them would suffer much worse to remain in the good graces of the Party. In another generation or so, when the numbers shift enough, their children will gladly walk into the ovens, elbowing one another to be first through the door to show how enlightened they are. We already are in the mid-stages of self-denunciation.


Imagine this madness, where infanticide is a much lesser included offense than racial insensitivity, multiply that by 1,000, and embrace the near-future.

Posted by: Trump poisoned my cat at February 10, 2019 08:50 PM (iw59Q)

306 am I the only one that doesn't give a shit about this ? it's way more than 10 miles from me ..

Posted by: angst hill at February 10, 2019 08:56 PM (KdryZ)

307 zombie, am I wrong on this ?

Posted by: angst hill at February 10, 2019 08:58 PM (KdryZ)

308 The good news is that with the rise of 'progressives' debt slavery is going to make a comeback.


Example - free college (loans) that you cannot declare bankruptcy on.

Posted by: Burnt Toast at February 10, 2019 09:26 PM (1g7ch)

309 308 The good news is that with the rise of 'progressives' debt slavery is going to make a comeback.


Example - free college (loans) that you cannot declare bankruptcy on.

I have often called this the return of serfdom. I know young people with reasonably good jobs who have so much debt they have to live with parents to manage the debt. It's insane. Our children have finished college owing 10K and 20K respectively and from what I understand that is far less than the average college debt owed by students.

Posted by: WarEagle82 at February 10, 2019 09:29 PM (+Kpte)

310 Northam is going to throw money at blacks in Virginia to atone for his sins. They're going to cash in on his racism.
That'll keep them voting dem. He may be dumb but he ain't stupid.

Posted by: JuJuBee, just generally being shamey at February 10, 2019 09:32 PM (zmIJL)

311 Here's what, he's not wrong. The first blacks in Jamestown,were indentured laborers, and so it was for many years...and only gradually did race-based chattel slavery as we know it, evolve from this.

He picked a hell of a time to stumble into a discussion about that,, though. He is the most inartful chowderhead I never thought possible could be elected governor of Virginia.

Posted by: SarahW In Richmond right this minute at February 10, 2019 09:32 PM (g1vnC)

312 Actually, the first Africans brought to Virginia were treated as indentured servants, because there were no slave laws around at the time. Slavery came in a few years later.

Posted by: Buford Gooch at February 10, 2019 09:32 PM (bOtTO)

313 https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_slavery_in_Virginia

Posted by: SarahW In Richmond right this minute at February 10, 2019 09:32 PM (g1vnC)

314 I'm not trying to be argumentative but did that mean
that they were freed after they worked off their servitude? I don't
know and am asking seriously.




Posted by: LGoPs at February 10, 2019 06:37 PM (vFUiw)

Yes.


Ironically, the cast that is widely recognised as turning indentured servitude into chattel slavery involved one of those 20 Africans but not in the way you might think. An black indentured servant named John Casor was "indentured for life" by the courts in Virginia and was "owned" by one of the original 20 African indentured servants from 1619 by the name of Anthony Johnson. The guy was his indentured servant and ran away to work for someone else. The indenterer took him to court and he was ordered by the judge into servitude for life as punishment.

Posted by: redbanzai the Southerner at February 10, 2019 10:52 PM (imSgd)

315 #182 Egyptians were huge fans of slavery.

Posted by: torabora at February 11, 2019 12:05 AM (FoIZ7)

316 311 Here's what, he's not wrong. The first blacks in Jamestown,were indentured laborers, and so it was for many years...and only gradually did race-based chattel slavery as we know it, evolve from this.

He picked a hell of a time to stumble into a discussion about that,, though. He is the most inartful chowderhead I never thought possible could be elected governor of Virginia.
Posted by: SarahW In Richmond right this minute at February 10, 2019 09:32 PM (g1vnC)

Extra points for the nic.

Posted by: m at February 11, 2019 09:21 AM (hl9+B)

317 One other point from that book was that Africans had immunity to tropical diseases, and so more of them survived than the European settlers in North America. The five year survival rate of British colonists in Jamestown was something like 25%. So three out of four colonists died of malaria, yellow fever, etc. Given that my ancestors came over with Lord De La Warr to save Jamestown, it's astonishing that any of us are still here.

Much of the death in Virginia was due to starvation in the early years as well as the 1622 Indian attack. Since the first blacks came in somewhat after the early years of the settlement they would have had a much higher survival rate due to timing.

Posted by: DonS at February 11, 2019 10:56 AM (Q2pWM)

318 I'll once again reinforce this point: the blacks sold as indentured servants in Virginia had been taken by pirates from the Spanish. They were not transported to the New World to sell to the English; Spain and England were enemies. They were taken as part of a pirate haul and then sold as indentured servants, which was much better than being chattel slaves of the Spanish.

English chattel slavery evolved from that over time, with a series of court cases. But the earliest black indentured servants were treated as indentured servants and had certain rights and were eventually released.

Posted by: DonS at February 11, 2019 11:00 AM (Q2pWM)

319 We need to create a rival to SNL to just mock the hell out of these people.

Posted by: IanDeal at February 11, 2019 11:04 AM (4zQrR)

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