Gun Thread: MOA vs Mils [Weasel]

Math? I was told there would be no math!! Why is there math here?!

Last week, discussion in the comments turned to measurement conventions for riflescopes; MOA or Minutes Of Angle, and Mil or Milliradian. It occurred to me that not everyone may be familiar with the two and exactly what each is referring to. So at the risk of introducing math to the thread, let's take a look, shall we?

MOA - Minute(s) of Angle
MOA, or Minute of Angle, is simply an angular unit of measure describing the arc of a circle. A circle can be divided into 360 degrees, and one degree can be divided into 60 minutes. So one MOA is equal to 1/60th of one degree of arc.

On a flat rifle range, the target point straight in front of you is zero degrees elevation, and an imaginary point directly overhead is 90 degrees elevation, which really is just one quarter of a giant circle. One MOA is a teeeensy little wedge of that big angle. Good so far?

The nice thing about circles is the relationship between the radius and the arc remain constant. As the length of the radius increases, so does the arc. If we substitute the radius for range or distance to target, and the arc of the circle for elevation (or windage) we can compute a firing solution.

One Minute of Angle or MOA equals 1.047 inches at 100 yards. [trust me]. One MOA equals 2.094" at 200 yards (1.047x2), and 10.47" at 1000yds (1.047"x10), and so forth. The fractional amount of .047" or 47 thousandths per hundred yards is generally disregarded inside about 600 yards or so.

POP QUIZ:
John and Sue share a delicious Fuji apple, each eating 1/3. What is the value in inches of 1 MOA at 275 yards?

Mils or Milliradians
Mil stands for milliradian which is also an angular unit of measure describing the arc of a circle. A radian is the angle defined when the length of arc is equal to the radius of a circle. A milliradian is simply 1/1000th of one radian, and there are approximately 6.28 radians (rounded) in a full circle (2 x pi). Again, a very small wedge of a much larger angle.

One Mil is equal to 3.6 inches at 100 yards. [trust me again]. One mil equals 7.2" (3.6"x2) at 200 yards, and 36" (3.6"x10) at 1000 yards, and so on.

Fractional Mil adjustments at 100 yds

One Mil is therefore equal to about 3.6 MOA. To convert from MOA to mil, you multiply by 3.6 and to convert from mil to MOA you divide by 3.6

POP QUIZ:
A train leaves Chicago traveling west at 60 mph. What is the value in inches of one Mil at 625 yards?

Your shooting buddy has a mil scope and you have a MOA scope. He tells you he might be slightly gay, and the range to a target is 3.75 mils. How far away do you move your stuff in meters? What do you use for elevation in MOA?

So how is all this useful?
Well I'm glad you asked. Both conventions, the MOA and Milliradian are used to measure the angle, or elevation, of a rifle barrel above the horizontal. Well ain't that some shit! Math and geometry really are good for something!

Which is Better?
In my opinion, neither is clearly superior to the other. They both do the same thing and have very slight advantages and disadvantages (which are beyond the scope of this discussion - HA! See what I did there?) depending on the intended use. I see more scopes with Mil reticles on military rifles with targets ranged in meters and more MOA scopes on civilian competition rifles with targets ranged in yards. While there are slight differences, for example one MOA is a finer adjustment than one Mil, in the end I'd recommend using whichever system you like and are comfy with. The usefulness also depends a lot on matching the reticle to the intended use. I started using MOA riflescopes and will continue to do so because I don't see a reason to switch. If you like Mil scopes, then by all means use a Mil scope. If you're undecided, try both, and ask others who do the same type of shooting you do which they use, and why.

Mil DOT Reticle

Note in the reticle shown above, the distance between the 'dots' is one MIL, or 3.6 inches at 100 yards. Would you choose this scope/reticle combination if your intended use regularly included target shooting at 600 yards? Conversely, would it be a good choice for shooting larger targets at shorter distances where absolute precision was not a priority, but fast target acquisition was bigly important?

Nightforce MIL-RILL Reticle

Nightforce MOA MOAR-T Reticle

Putting it to Use
Depending on the riflescope, rifles are commonly 'zeroed' at 100yds (MOA) or sometimes 100 meters (mil). It's a matter of preference, and some people zero their rifles at longer distances, but the majority of shooters generally use a 100 yd/m zero. What is zeroing a rifle? Simply put it's adjusting the scope so the point of impact occurs exactly on target at 100 yards or 100 meters with zero elevation or windage indicated on the scope.

Here's where the MOA and Mil business begins to matter. Say you're shooting a .308 with an MOA scope at 800 yds. Your data shows 27.3 MOA in elevation is required at this distance. You dial that in (27.25 MOA and hold the rest), take the shot and are high and right about 4 inches. Well at 800 yds, 1 MOA is 8.4" (1.047" x 8 = 8.4" rounded) so I'd take off 1/2 MOA in elevation and wind then hold verrrrrry slightly low and left, and take another shot. If your rifle scope has .25 MOA adjustment, that's two hash marks or 'clicks' of the elevation and windage knobs. Some scopes have finer .125" or eighth MOA adjustments per click and in that case you would want to dial down four hash marks or clicks to equal 1/2 MOA. Mil based scopes usually have 1/10th Mil adjustments.

What's important is the little knobs can be a great tool for making adjustments. They can also create a disaster if you start turning them in the wrong direction, like someone did on firing position 42 in the last relay of Match 3 at the SW Nationals in Phoenix, AZ on February 5th, 2016, or so I've heard. I try to set them at the start of a match and leave them alone during each string, holding for wind and elevation, unless the conditions really change.

A Very Brief Tutorial on Ranging
You're out shooting and didn't realize the fancy rangefinder you got for Christmas uses batteries. Oh no! What do you do? Well you can use your riflescope to determine range if you know the size of the target using the following formulas:

MOA Scope

target size (inches) x 95.5 / size (MOA) = range (yards)
Metric users, estimate target size in centimeters and substitute the constant 34.4 in the formula to determine range in meters.

Mil Scope

target size (inches) x 27.8 / size (mils) = range (yards)
Metric users, estimate the target size in centimeters and substitute the constant 10 in the formula to determine the range in meters.

A good video from our pals at Vortex Optics can be found HERE with examples of ranging with reticles.

One important point on using scopes to determine range to target - Second Focal Plane (SFP) scopes only range accurately at one specific magnification, while First Focal Plane (FFP) scopes range accurately across the entire range of magnification. Again, this is only important when using a scope to determine the range to target. The scope zero and other functions are the same for both types.

Note to Readers This is intended as an introduction to the terms and concepts, rather than an exhaustive look at the use of riflescopes. For those interested, I'm planning a little more in-depth thread on determining elevation and windage and the factors that affect them.

Link-O-Rama
Video: Understanding MOA
Article: Mil, MOA or Inches?
Accurate Shooter: Angular Measurement - Mil vs MOA
Article: MOA and Mil Summary
Target Ranging and Conversion Formulas

*******

***This Old Gun***

Astra 400 courtesy Warmongerel

This week's beauty of an Old Gun comes to us courtesy of Warmongerel, with an equally cool story to go with it:

My stepdad gave this to me 20+ years ago. It looked brand new so I figured that it was just some goofy 70's Eurotrash thing and put it in the safe and forgot about it. I looked it up a few years ago. It's an Astra 400 and it's almost 100 years old. They were made for the Spanish civil war and used by both sides. Some of them made it to Germany and were used by the Nazis instead of the Luger.

Very nicely done Warmongerel! Now have you bought a cookbook and signed up for the 2019 NoVaMoMe?

***This Old Cookbook***

OK you clowns - buy a copy of the cookbook. If you already have one for your own bad self, then give one as a gift this season. Remember; it's only pennies per day, all proceeds go to charity, and if you don't buy a copy then bluebell will be sad.

And you wouldn't like bluebell when she's sad.

Yes! I want to be a WeaselWarrior and prevent sadness in bluebell!!

*************

IMPORTANT!

Finally Don't forget to mark your calendars for the NoVaMoMe on February 9, 2019. If you are interested, please email the organizers! There is also a link in the main page left sidebar.

*************

Please note the new and improved gmail account MoronGunThread for sending in stories and pictures. Again, that's morongunthread at gmail dot com. If you have a question you would like to ask Gun Thread Staff offline, just send us a note and we'll do our best to answer. If you care to share the story of your favorite firearm, send a picture with your nic and tell us what you sadly lost in the tragic canoe accident. If you would like to remain completely anonymous, just say so. Lurkers are welcome!

That's it for this week - have you been to the range?

Posted by: Open Blogger at 07:03 PM

Comments

(Jump to bottom of comments)

1 Matah?

Posted by: freaked at December 16, 2018 07:01 PM (UdKB7)

2 Math! Oh noex

Posted by: Skip at December 16, 2018 07:03 PM (/rm4P)

3 I can evn spel it much les cypher it.

Posted by: freaked at December 16, 2018 07:03 PM (UdKB7)

4 I am absolutely interested in attending the NoVaMoMe. Just not very optimistic I could make it there, as that is one what would require air travel. I will ponder it.

Still regret missing Ben Had's Texas meetup. For me, that's driving distance (Funyuns and Dr. Pepper, and plenty of thrash metal on the stereo).

Ah, well.

Posted by: Pug Mahon at December 16, 2018 07:06 PM (fmOMA)

5 I need fire control radar when I shoot, not a scope.

Posted by: NaCly Dog at December 16, 2018 07:07 PM (hyuyC)

6 A train leaves Chicago traveling west at 60 mph. What is the value in inches of one Mil at 625 yards?

Chicago? 20 shot and 2 killed in a weekend. A quiet weekend

Posted by: TheQuietMan at December 16, 2018 07:07 PM (SiINZ)

7 Good job, Weasel. You got math all over the blog.

Posted by: RedMindBlueState at December 16, 2018 07:07 PM (Uw2PZ)

8 POP QUIZ:
John and Sue share a delicious Fuji apple, each eating 1/3. What is the value in inches of 1 MOA at 275 yards?
------------

This is a trick question because it's supposed to be a Stayman apple.

Posted by: bluebell ~ sign up now for the NoVaMoMe! at December 16, 2018 07:08 PM (U5tDi)

9 7 Good job, Weasel. You got math all over the blog.
Posted by: RedMindBlueState at December 16, 2018 07:07 PM (Uw2PZ)
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I claim special dispensation for shooting related topics!

Posted by: Weasel - Special Assistant to bluebell for NoVaMoMe 2019 at December 16, 2018 07:09 PM (MVjcR)

10 Big shout out to Mark!

THANK YOU so very much for inviting me and my boys to the range on Saturday. We had a blast!

You are very kind and patient. The boys learned a lot and are still smiling.

If anyone has the opportunity to shoot with Mark, take it.

Posted by: Nurse ratched at December 16, 2018 07:09 PM (PkVlr)

11 I got a couple of Astra 400's a few years back and one of them would keyhole like a somebeach. Took me about 3 years to track down a frosty barrel which did the trick.

Great pistols and on par with our 1911 for accuracy and feel in my opinion.

9mm Largo/Bergmann is a great round but outside of Spain it is now regulated to the dustbin of history.

Posted by: Hairyback Guy at December 16, 2018 07:10 PM (Z+IKu)

12 This is a trick question because it's supposed to be a Stayman apple.
Posted by: bluebell ~ sign up now for the NoVaMoMe! at December 16, 2018 07:08 PM (U5tDi)
--------
Glad you saw that!!

Posted by: Weasel - Special Assistant to bluebell for NoVaMoMe 2019 at December 16, 2018 07:10 PM (MVjcR)

13 'A circle can be divided into 360 degrees'

Not so fast there Einstein. You can't put circles in a box.

Posted by: A deranged lefty but that's redundant at December 16, 2018 07:12 PM (UdKB7)

14 Glad you saw that!!
Posted by: Weasel - Special Assistant to bluebell for NoVaMoMe 2019 at December 16, 2018 07:10 PM (MVjcR)
-----------

Good. What do I win?

Posted by: bluebell ~ Weasel wants you to come to the NoVaMoMe! at December 16, 2018 07:13 PM (U5tDi)

15
Good. What do I win?
Posted by: bluebell ~ Weasel wants you to come to the NoVaMoMe! at December 16, 2018 07:13 PM (U5tDi)
-------
Just making sure you're on your toes!

Posted by: Weasel - Special Assistant to bluebell for NoVaMoMe 2019 at December 16, 2018 07:13 PM (xV9FI)

16 Do laser rifles make this obsolete?

Posted by: Parker at December 16, 2018 07:15 PM (MFwf8)

17 16 Do laser rifles make this obsolete?
Posted by: Parker at December 16, 2018 07:15 PM (MFwf

------
Not if you forget batteries!

Posted by: Weasel - Special Assistant to bluebell for NoVaMoMe 2019 at December 16, 2018 07:16 PM (MVjcR)

18 Do laser rifles make this obsolete?
Posted by: Parker at December 16, 2018 07:15 PM (MFwf

-------------------

No. The same calculations are needed for windage and elevation because wind and bullet drop are not calculated by the laser.

Posted by: Calm Mentor at December 16, 2018 07:18 PM (ffYR/)

19 zomgStillers

17/10

Posted by: mikeyG at December 16, 2018 07:19 PM (LL1Be)

20 LOL, good old slide rule. I still have mine.

Posted by: Vic at December 16, 2018 07:19 PM (mpXpK)

21 I once shot a Moa in my pajamas.

Posted by: Grouchy Marxman at December 16, 2018 07:19 PM (UdKB7)

22 105mm make this obsolete, but then there are a whole different set of math equation to worry about

Posted by: Skip at December 16, 2018 07:20 PM (/rm4P)

23 21 I once shot a Moa in my pajamas.
Posted by: Grouchy Marxman at December 16, 2018 07:19 PM (UdKB7)
------
How did it get there?

Posted by: Weasel - Special Assistant to bluebell for NoVaMoMe 2019 at December 16, 2018 07:20 PM (MVjcR)

24 Hey Vic - good to see you!

Posted by: Weasel - Special Assistant to bluebell for NoVaMoMe 2019 at December 16, 2018 07:21 PM (MVjcR)

25 I am going to go back upstairs, get a scotch and see if I can understand at least a little of this.

Posted by: Skip at December 16, 2018 07:22 PM (/rm4P)

26 All you really have to know is how much your particular round drops at 100 yards. And you can forget all the rest of that math shit.

Posted by: Vic at December 16, 2018 07:22 PM (mpXpK)

27 I am a cookbook warrior. My 5 copies came this past week.

Posted by: Ben Had at December 16, 2018 07:23 PM (mh1zq)

28 'How did it get there?'

I know right? Did it take a bus or something?

Posted by: Grouchy Marxman at December 16, 2018 07:23 PM (UdKB7)

29 27 I am a cookbook warrior. My 5 copies came this past week.
Posted by: Ben Had at December 16, 2018 07:23 PM (mh1zq)
-----
Thank You Ben Had!!!

Posted by: Weasel - Special Assistant to bluebell for NoVaMoMe 2019 at December 16, 2018 07:24 PM (MVjcR)

30 Weasel, do I get a silver bullet?

Posted by: Ben Had at December 16, 2018 07:25 PM (mh1zq)

31
Lick my thumb. Hold into air.

Kentucky windage!!!

Posted by: Spun & Murky at December 16, 2018 07:25 PM (4DCSq)

32 I've never had a scope with all those markings. I guess they don't come standard on BB guns.

Posted by: Ronster at December 16, 2018 07:25 PM (Fsya+)

33 30 Weasel, do I get a silver bullet?
Posted by: Ben Had at December 16, 2018 07:25 PM (mh1zq)
-------
Copper OK?

Posted by: Weasel - Special Assistant to bluebell for NoVaMoMe 2019 at December 16, 2018 07:26 PM (MVjcR)

34 Amazon kicked my book reader out of the system again and made me go through the whole password crap again.

Posted by: Vic at December 16, 2018 07:26 PM (mpXpK)

35 Boston's only gun club (yes Boston still has one by miracle of miracles) is going lead free February 1st. Understandable given the 50+ year old ventilation system (1964) and bullet trap make it difficult to keep lead dust under control. Should actually make the club more accessible to people from not having to decontaminate oneself after use. Downside is being stuck using club only non-toxic ammo at 20-27 bucks a box.

Posted by: Blue Falcon in Boston at December 16, 2018 07:27 PM (N5dam)

36 Weasel, not. I surely have to be in the silver range by now.

Posted by: Ben Had at December 16, 2018 07:27 PM (mh1zq)

37 35 Boston's only gun club (yes Boston still has one by miracle of miracles) is going lead free February 1st. Understandable given the 50+ year old ventilation system (1964) and bullet trap make it difficult to keep lead dust under control. Should actually make the club more accessible to people from not having to decontaminate oneself after use. Downside is being stuck using club only non-toxic ammo at 20-27 bucks a box.
Posted by: Blue Falcon in Boston at December 16, 2018 07:27 PM (N5dam)
------
Bummer, man. Sorry.

Posted by: Weasel - Special Assistant to bluebell for NoVaMoMe 2019 at December 16, 2018 07:28 PM (MVjcR)

38 I started getting lost at the end. I bet scopes is a large topic.

Posted by: t-bird at December 16, 2018 07:28 PM (NAs56)

39
Do laser rifles make this obsolete?
------
Not if you forget batteries!

Use solar power.

Posted by: Bertram Cabot, Jr. at December 16, 2018 07:29 PM (aKsyK)

40 Wait.. guns AND math? Oh boy.. I'm a fish outta water here.

Posted by: Jewells45 at December 16, 2018 07:30 PM (dUJdY)

41 36 Weasel, not. I surely have to be in the silver range by now.
Posted by: Ben Had at December 16, 2018 07:27 PM (mh1zq)
--------
Oh, you're absolutely a platinum bullet member, but I spent all my money on hookers and blow.

Posted by: Weasel - Special Assistant to bluebell for NoVaMoMe 2019 at December 16, 2018 07:30 PM (MVjcR)

42 >>> 4 I am absolutely interested in attending the NoVaMoMe. Just not very optimistic I could make it there, as that is one what would require air travel. I will ponder it.

Still regret missing Ben Had's Texas meetup. For me, that's driving distance (Funyuns and Dr. Pepper, and plenty of thrash metal on the stereo).

Ah, well.
Posted by: Pug Mahon at December 16, 2018 07:06 PM (fmOMA)

Ha, same here! I just need to win the lottery and buy a private jet...

... and you should definitely get to the TX MoMee if you can. It's even on topic, because (barring torrential rain) there will be lots of gubs there.

Posted by: Helena Handbasket at December 16, 2018 07:30 PM (0ReGO)

43 40 Wait.. guns AND math? Oh boy.. I'm a fish outta water here.
Posted by: Jewells45 at December 16, 2018 07:30 PM (dUJdY)
-----
That's why I added pictures!

Posted by: Weasel - Special Assistant to bluebell for NoVaMoMe 2019 at December 16, 2018 07:30 PM (MVjcR)

44 Love those Astras. Weird looking but excellent performance. Straight blowback, if I'm not mistaken, which is highly unusual for a caliber above .380.

Posted by: Taro Tsujimoto at December 16, 2018 07:31 PM (j4zcI)

45 Gosh, that's a nice pistol, Warmongerel. I'm a sucker for weirdo late-19th, early-20th century guns.

Posted by: hogmartin at December 16, 2018 07:32 PM (t+qrx)

46 So, is it safe to assume there are charts to handle these calculations? So you don't?

Posted by: joncelli, remembering trigonometry at December 16, 2018 07:32 PM (1FhAQ)

47 Hey, Warmongeral, any markings on the Astra? Like a Fascist crest, maybe? That's worth bonus coolness ponts.

Posted by: Taro Tsujimoto at December 16, 2018 07:33 PM (j4zcI)

48 That's why I added pictures!
Posted by: Weasel - Special Assistant to bluebell for NoVaMoMe 2019 at December 16, 2018 07:30 PM (MVjcR)

That's you in the top picture, right?

Posted by: hogmartin at December 16, 2018 07:33 PM (t+qrx)

49 Helena Handbasket, The change of venue is going to be at Bob/Jennifer's next year, There will be a for real gun range.

Posted by: Ben Had at December 16, 2018 07:33 PM (mh1zq)

50 This is interesting but I got nothing that will get out that far, both a smoothbore and 45acp drop like rocks. Not to say someday I might

Posted by: Skip at December 16, 2018 07:34 PM (/rm4P)

51 Pug, you'll come for the guns but you'll stay for Helena's bacon.

Posted by: Ben Had at December 16, 2018 07:35 PM (mh1zq)

52 46 So, is it safe to assume there are charts to handle these calculations? So you don't?
Posted by: joncelli, remembering trigonometry at December 16, 2018 07:32 PM (1FhAQ)
----
Well, sort of. You need to understand the concepts if you have to deviate from your chart. And for precision shooting, you need to understand how to make very small adjustments to your assumed data.

Posted by: Weasel - Special Assistant to bluebell for NoVaMoMe 2019 at December 16, 2018 07:35 PM (MVjcR)

53 lol.. thanks Weasel.

Posted by: Jewells45 at December 16, 2018 07:36 PM (dUJdY)

54 Understandable given the 50+ year old ventilation system (1964) and bullet trap make it difficult to keep lead dust under control.

Would be interested in seeing the cancer rates (or whatever we're scared of with lead) of the membership.

1964 with lead ammo, lead paint, and leaded gasoline (leaded coal, too, right?) and smokers versus a clean 2019. I'll go so far as to guess a decline in health (for other reasons).

Posted by: t-bird at December 16, 2018 07:37 PM (lK7fO)

55
That's you in the top picture, right?
Posted by: hogmartin at December 16, 2018 07:33 PM (t+qrx)
------
Well I have a goatee now...

Posted by: Weasel - Special Assistant to bluebell for NoVaMoMe 2019 at December 16, 2018 07:37 PM (MVjcR)

56 'When I was younger I used to know these things.'
Chief Stand Watie

Posted by: Eromero at December 16, 2018 07:38 PM (zLDYs)

57 Trigonometry was where they lost me in high school.

Realized it was a thing when trying to calculate the loft on a putter with a laser and a mirror.

Posted by: Golfman at December 16, 2018 07:39 PM (GL/05)

58 "26
All you really have to know is how much your particular round drops at
100 yards. And you can forget all the rest of that math shit.

Posted by: Vic at December 16, 2018 07:22 PM (mpXpK)"
For a few caliber and firearms combinations, sure, but generally no.
Let's take what should presumably be the most common modern long arm in a citizen's arsenal - the AR-15. Leave aside whining about "muh thirty caliber" and "poodle shooter" and all that crap, this is a serious talk and not gunshop commando bullshit.
Let's further assume you realize this is 2018 and you have a quality 1x optic. If you have your shit together, your zero is probably 50 yards. This is going to put you ~2 inches low at room distances (sight offset) a ~2 inches high at 100 yards, dead on at about 230 yards, easily close enough to COM at 300 yards, and likely give you a "dot on top of their head" hold at 400.
This is an application of the Maximum Point Blank Range concept for 5.56mm that holds close enough from 10" to 20" barrels, with anything from 55gr ball to 77gr match rounds, and provides real-world useful holdover info that is easy to remember.
Now, if you're using a magnified optic with adjustable turrets, that's a whole different matter - and you're going to want a chart customized to your altitude, temperature, humidity, and air pressure that goes out to the effective reach of your rifle/optic/round.

Posted by: lurker (the other one) at December 16, 2018 07:39 PM (67XdO)

59 Slow thread, so I'll go off-topic and give you my latest gun-cleaning tool discovery:

Lint-free, small-diameter-tip touch-up paint and makeup applicators. Use those terms to search for them on Amazon. They are made in a variety of tip diameters.

Excellent for getting into tight places for cleaning, and for precise application of oil or grease. Better than cotton swabs for either, and no cotton threads that may get hung-up and left behind. Plastic not wood stems, so less prone to breakage, but will bend some. Inexpensive.

Posted by: Gref at December 16, 2018 07:39 PM (AMIL/)

60 Math? Math? You brought math into the thread? What's next - ~~sex,~~ ~~drugs,~~ ~~rock-and-roll,~~ ~~history,~~ ~~literature,~~ ~~biology,~~ ~~cooking,~~ ~~military affairs,~~ ~~moronic jokes,~~ ~~politics,~~ ~~government,~~ ~~current events,~~

...well, heck - math is about the only thing that hasn't been in this blog. Now I wonder why not?

Posted by: LCMS Rulz! at December 16, 2018 07:39 PM (o7l6R)

61 mils, moa.... who gives a shit?

that's why G*d invented tracers!

Posted by: redc1c4 at December 16, 2018 07:40 PM (zJ7J0)

62 And that guy with the slide rul ain't Weasel. He's the same guy that was shaving on the Frank Zappa album cover.

Posted by: Eromero at December 16, 2018 07:41 PM (zLDYs)

63 #37, well it's a good thing a bad thing. Lead was a real issue at the range for years and it's much better to be lead free for many reasons. The downside is the doubling of the price of ammo and essentially banning firearms chambered in lass common calibers which don't have green ammo commercially available.

Posted by: Blue Falcon in Boston at December 16, 2018 07:41 PM (N5dam)

64 The little neighbor girl/elves brought me a 1.75 Johnnie Walker Black while I was cleaning guns. I have good neighbors. I sighted in Dad's .243 this AM.

No pop quiz answers? I need to go back...

Posted by: DBCooper at December 16, 2018 07:41 PM (bttOm)

65
Now, if you're using a magnified optic with adjustable turrets, that's a whole different matter - and you're going to want a chart customized to your altitude, temperature, humidity, and air pressure that goes out to the effective reach of your rifle/optic/round.
Posted by: lurker (the other one) at December 16, 2018 07:39 PM (67XdO)
-------
I work up my range cards using a standard atmosphere, and always record density altitude every time I shoot for future reference. Important when the first shot has to count.

Posted by: Weasel - Special Assistant to bluebell for NoVaMoMe 2019 at December 16, 2018 07:42 PM (MVjcR)

66 Being one in the land survey bidness, I know the maths and stuff.

But when zeroing rifles it's always been through iron sights. so while I know this is valuable info for the future, I ain't had to use it as of yet.

Posted by: Pug Mahon at December 16, 2018 07:43 PM (tUBlR)

67 And that guy with the slide rul ain't Weasel. He's the same guy that was shaving on the Frank Zappa album cover.
Posted by: Eromero at December 16, 2018 07:41 PM (zLDYs)

What was the name of the album...?

Posted by: hogmartin at December 16, 2018 07:43 PM (t+qrx)

68 Huh. New hash.

Posted by: Pug Mahon at December 16, 2018 07:44 PM (tUBlR)

69 I think I kind of got it.
There must be a calculator to do this because everything doesn't always come 200,300 or 600 yards away, it might be 534yds.

Posted by: Skip at December 16, 2018 07:44 PM (/rm4P)

70 Just got here. Waiting till 100 to tell funny story. Well, it's funny to me.

Posted by: RI Red at December 16, 2018 07:44 PM (vbpRb)

71
Dallas loses.
New England loses.

I sad.

Posted by: Hadrian the Seventh at December 16, 2018 07:44 PM (LsBY9)

72 Posted by: Gref at December 16, 2018 07:39 PM (AMIL/)
------
Great tip! Thank you, Gref!

Posted by: Weasel - Special Assistant to bluebell for NoVaMoMe 2019 at December 16, 2018 07:45 PM (MVjcR)

73 >>> 49 Helena Handbasket, The change of venue is going to be at Bob/Jennifer's next year, There will be a for real gun range.
Posted by: Ben Had at December 16, 2018 07:33 PM (mh1zq)

...so Horde? This is very cool.

Weasel, I love your pop quizzes!

Posted by: Helena Handbasket at December 16, 2018 07:45 PM (0ReGO)

74 Also of note; ballistics apps on tablets and smartphones are extremely useful. For example:

- Determine holdovers for your battle rifle zero

- Generate holdover/drift charts for specific weather conditions, or for your average conditions (a couple thousand feet in elevation and some weather will make a pretty big difference past 500 or so)

- Take a rifle with a known zero with ammo A, fire a group with ammo B, measure the vertical and horizontal offset and generate a ballistic chart with adjustments for shooting ammo B while the rifle is zeroed for ammo A.

Posted by: lurker (the other one) at December 16, 2018 07:45 PM (67XdO)

75 Ok so 1 MOA @ 275 is 2,87925 in.
1 MIL @ 625 is 22.50 in.

Posted by: DBCooper at December 16, 2018 07:45 PM (bttOm)

76 Hey everybody.

Sorry to threadjack, but if that show that was portrayed in the cartoon series Daria, "Sad Sick World," were real, this guy would be on it. A lot.

"'World's most modified youth' has had over 40 procedures to 'stand out'" (link to Fox News)

https://tinyurl.com/yd384wdo

Posted by: qdpsteve at December 16, 2018 07:47 PM (miE9U)

77 The Astra A-400 was made also by a few Republican factories, but they suffered from poor metalurgy and that some parts were made and then hand-fitted so each pistol was sort of unique. You can tell them from the grip panels and some of the milling on the slide for pulling back the slide.

Germany requested the A-600 which was a 9mm parabelum version, and it was used supposedly by the Luftwaffe as a secondary pistol.

They are a bit of a chinese puzzle to disassemble. And if you do it wrong, you shoot the muzzle bushing and cap across the room and behind the sofa.

It starts out by pinching the slide back just to the right point, and twisting the barrel a quarter turn to disengage it from the frame. The slide and barrel can be slid off at that point.

Then it gets complicated because the spring, the barrel bushing and cap are under a lot of spring tension. Get the instructions. I tell people to disassemble a few times in a place where you can find the pieces again.

I was at a gun shop once when the owner asked me if I knew how to disassemble one of them. I did, put each item down on his counter mat, and told him for $10.00 I'd put it back together again.

He looked sour and his wife in the back room started laughing.

Posted by: Kindltot at December 16, 2018 07:48 PM (mUa7G)

78 69 I think I kind of got it.
There must be a calculator to do this because everything doesn't always come 200,300 or 600 yards away, it might be 534yds.

Posted by: Skip at December 16, 2018 07:44 PM (/rm4P)

I believe there are iOS and Android apps that can do all the MOA and mils math. And you can enter weather conditions and your bullet's ballistic number and so forth into many of them, to get a multi-parameter solution for scope adjustments.

Posted by: Gref at December 16, 2018 07:48 PM (AMIL/)

79 Eagles don't start for 40 minutes and I better be in bed by then.

Posted by: Skip at December 16, 2018 07:48 PM (/rm4P)

80 Skip, Don Henley don't wait for nobody! ;-)

Posted by: qdpsteve at December 16, 2018 07:49 PM (miE9U)

81 I have very few guns with scopes but your post makes me want to print out the instructions and get out my old six inch slide rule. I wonder which would get more attention at the range: the slide rule or the BP guns or the miltary surplus rifles.

Posted by: JTB at December 16, 2018 07:49 PM (bmdz3)

82 hogmartin, don't recall the album name, but guy had a weaselrazor. Have I mentioned how beautiful the Ruger Blackhawk flatop 5.5 invh barrel in stainless is? And that it has a 9MM cylinder as well? Dude, this is so beautiful it's like marrying a rich widow who owns a Ford dealership and a chain of liquor stores.

Posted by: Eromero at December 16, 2018 07:49 PM (zLDYs)

83 69 I think I kind of got it.
There must be a calculator to do this because everything doesn't always come 200,300 or 600 yards away, it might be 534yds.
Posted by: Skip at December 16, 2018 07:44 PM (/rm4P)
-------
There are very sophisticated ballistic apps but you have to make those adjustments on the firing line without aid, especially in a PRS style match. Since I'm old, I mostly shoot fixed distances competitively.

Posted by: Weasel - Special Assistant to bluebell for NoVaMoMe 2019 at December 16, 2018 07:49 PM (MVjcR)

84 Pug, you'll come for the guns but you'll stay for Helena's bacon.
Posted by: Ben Had at December 16, 2018 07:35 PM (mh1zq)

Consider me intrigued...

*rubs chin*

Yup. I'm in.

Posted by: Pug Mahon at December 16, 2018 07:50 PM (tUBlR)

85 Weasels Ripped My Flesh

Posted by: freaked at December 16, 2018 07:51 PM (UdKB7)

86 My contribution for the gun thread - today my safe wouldn't open. Punch the keys beep-beep-beep and then nothing.

Had the key key tucked away and it was fiddly but got it open.

Turned out the batteries were strong enough to light up the keypad and make noise, but not enough to turn the retraction motor.

So, yeah, check your equipment at non critical times so it works in critical times. The lesson for today.

Posted by: blaster at December 16, 2018 07:51 PM (ZfRYq)

87 MOAs vs Mils sounds kinda dirty

Posted by: josephistan at December 16, 2018 07:52 PM (Izzlo)

88 >>> 84 Pug, you'll come for the guns but you'll stay for Helena's bacon.
Posted by: Ben Had at December 16, 2018 07:35 PM (mh1zq)

Consider me intrigued...

*rubs chin*

Yup. I'm in.
Posted by: Pug Mahon at December 16, 2018 07:50 PM (tUBlR)

Woohoo!!

Posted by: Helena Handbasket at December 16, 2018 07:52 PM (0ReGO)

89
So, yeah, check your equipment at non critical times so it works in critical times. The lesson for today.
Posted by: blaster at December 16, 2018 07:51 PM (ZfRYq)
-----
I have always wondered about that. Since I'm paranoid, I have combination locks on all my gun safes.

Posted by: Weasel - Special Assistant to bluebell for NoVaMoMe 2019 at December 16, 2018 07:52 PM (MVjcR)

90 85 Frank Zappa I think

Posted by: Skip at December 16, 2018 07:53 PM (/rm4P)

91 He looked sour and his wife in the back room started laughing.
Posted by: Kindltot at December 16, 2018 07:48 PM (mUa7G)

Hahaha...yup. A good idea the first few times you do disassemble an Astra 400 or 600 is put the pistol in a clear plastic baggie big enough for the pistol and to hold in what wants to shoot across the room or back yard.

Ask me how I know....

Posted by: Hairyback Guy at December 16, 2018 07:53 PM (Z+IKu)

92 blaster, rule number 1b (1a is the one about dick/crazy) is always buy the old spin dial combination safe. No batteries in zombie times.

Posted by: Eromero at December 16, 2018 07:53 PM (zLDYs)

93 There are very sophisticated ballistic apps but you have to make those adjustments on the firing line without aid, especially in a PRS style match. Since I'm old, I mostly shoot fixed distances competitively.
Posted by: Weasel - Special Assistant to bluebell for NoVaMoMe 2019 at December 16, 2018 07:49 PM (MVjcR)

I've seen little standalone devices the size of a hiking GPS that do the calculations and compute wind with a little anemometer and a whole bunch of other stuff besides - presumably features like laser rangefinding and clinometry - but I know less than nothing about them and they're probably not allowed in matches.

Posted by: hogmartin at December 16, 2018 07:53 PM (t+qrx)

94 fuuuudddddddgee

Posted by: orangutang at December 16, 2018 07:54 PM (KdryZ)

95 No batteries in zombie times.
Posted by: Eromero at December 16, 2018 07:53 PM (zLDYs)

I bet there are batteries at zombietime.com though.

Posted by: hogmartin at December 16, 2018 07:55 PM (t+qrx)

96 Weasels Ripped My Flesh:

'The album's closer and title track consists of every player on stage producing as much noise and feedback as they can for two minutes. '

Sound familiar?

Posted by: freaked at December 16, 2018 07:57 PM (UdKB7)

97 Batteries?

We don't need no stinking BATTERIES!

Posted by: Nurse ratched at December 16, 2018 07:57 PM (PkVlr)

98 Getting off a flat range, say hunting game at distance these aids could be handy.

Posted by: Skip at December 16, 2018 07:57 PM (/rm4P)

99 Just to cause trouble, I thought I'd share this:
https://www.virginiaapples.net/ apple-varieties-in-va
... and now I have to run to start dinner.

Posted by: Helena Handbasket at December 16, 2018 07:58 PM (0ReGO)

100 When I say laser rifle, I mean something in the 40 megawatt range...

Posted by: Parker at December 16, 2018 07:58 PM (MFwf8)

101
I've seen little standalone devices the size of a hiking GPS that do the calculations and compute wind with a little anemometer and a whole bunch of other stuff besides - presumably features like laser rangefinding and clinometry - but I know less than nothing about them and they're probably not allowed in matches.
Posted by: hogmartin at December 16, 2018 07:53 PM (t+qrx)
-------
I have a spiffy little device made by Kestrel that's an amazing little weather station. Among other things, it has an anemometer and will calculate density altitude. DA is a measure of temp, humidity, elevation and barometric pressure compared to a standard column of air. Very useful to know when shooting at long range, but you would be DQ'd and shot (not necessarily in that order) if you used one on the line in a match.

Posted by: Weasel - Special Assistant to bluebell for NoVaMoMe 2019 at December 16, 2018 07:58 PM (MVjcR)

102 How did Chris Kyle figure the shot for killing that Jihadi from a mile away?

Posted by: Ben Had at December 16, 2018 07:58 PM (mh1zq)

103
You got math in my blog!

You got blog in my math!

Posted by: IllTemperedCur at December 16, 2018 07:58 PM (e0p0c)

104 A word on the Astra 400,aka Model 1921. When these were first imported in the sixties, they were advertsed, incorrectly, of being able to digest just about any 9mm ammo. Now, it may or may not work with 9mm Luger, and it isn't headspacing on anything. The robust extractor holds the case. These should only be fired with 9mm Largo, aka 9mm Bergman Bayard, or 38 ACP (NOT 38 Super). You can load with 38 Super cases, and I would identify the handloads with a little paint dot. Just use 38 ACP or 9mm Luger data. If you run across a pistol showing significant use, check carefully for frame cracks from extended 38 Super shooting.

Posted by: bill in arkansas at December 16, 2018 07:59 PM (xzqr4)

105 Threw a few new listings up and I'm pooped. Gonna rub some CBD on my foot and lay back on my nice comfy chair. Might check in on the ONT if I'm still awake. Later dudes... and many thanks again.

Posted by: Jewells45 at December 16, 2018 07:59 PM (dUJdY)

106 Nice.

This is why I use a Mil Dot reticle.

Scope and rangefinder. All in one.

Posted by: garrett at December 16, 2018 07:59 PM (vhKHa)

107 Ugh, math. My brain just shuts off when you mass numbers together. Mental block thing.

Might be why I'm not great at adjusting sights. I much rather use Kentucky windage on fixed iron sights than fiddle with little things.

It's a flaw.

Posted by: Mark Andrew Edwards at December 16, 2018 07:59 PM (xJa6I)

108 If you do astronomy, you already know the MOA stuff. Degrees, arcminutes, arcseconds...

Posted by: Additional Blond Agent at December 16, 2018 07:59 PM (7s3Gx)

109 102 How did Chris Kyle figure the shot for killing that Jihadi from a mile away?
Posted by: Ben Had at December 16, 2018 07:58 PM (mh1zq)
---------
See above.

Posted by: Weasel - Special Assistant to bluebell for NoVaMoMe 2019 at December 16, 2018 08:00 PM (MVjcR)

110 102; pretty sure it involved fucking math.

Posted by: chavez the hugo at December 16, 2018 08:00 PM (KP5rU)

111 I know all about fuckng math. 1 +1 = 3.

Posted by: freaked at December 16, 2018 08:02 PM (UdKB7)

112 Just watching Gates on Fox talking about people questioning the measurable CO2 levels as absurd and in the same breath claiming the average toilet cost $1K. And Chris Wallace, being the constant dolt, nods his head up and down.

So, someone who is off in his analysis of toilet cost by 300-400% is lecturing us on CO2 levels

Posted by: REDACTED at December 16, 2018 08:02 PM (L/iaS)

113 >>pretty sure it involved fucking math.

Always the messiest kind.

Remainders all over the place.

Posted by: garrett at December 16, 2018 08:02 PM (vhKHa)

114 Gunga la gunga.

Posted by: JT at December 16, 2018 08:02 PM (nlUp2)

115 109 102 How did Chris Kyle figure the shot for killing that Jihadi from a mile away?
Posted by: Ben Had at December 16, 2018 07:58 PM (mh1zq)
---------
See above.
Posted by: Weasel - Special Assistant to bluebell for NoVaMoMe 2019 at December 16, 2018 08:00 PM (MVjcR)
--------
P.S. beyond about 1,500 yds the bullet flight time is long enough that you need to consider the coriolis effect in your firing solution.

Posted by: Weasel - Special Assistant to bluebell for NoVaMoMe 2019 at December 16, 2018 08:02 PM (MVjcR)

116 Now for the funny/sad post.

I have...a number of noisemakers. I don't have a lot of duplicates, though. And I do know what each gun is. I think. All that throat clearing aside, I misplaced my 'best' AR 15 this week.

I have a gun case by the door, that's where it used to live. When I checked it for a range trip, all I found was the .300 blk upper. No AR.

I sorta panicked, trying to figure out who'd been in my house unsupervised. I was about to point the finger at the heating service company. I was about to even dig out my emails to find the SN to file a police report.

And then I remembered the unused upstairs closet. I don't go in there much ,since the cat more or less pissed on everything in there and we just use it for storage for stuff we really don't use.

Sure enough, there in the Pelican case in the closet was my nice, expensive, tricked out AR 15.

Oh and in my panic, I sorta bought a Palmetto State Lower, thinking I'd need to rebuild.

Sheesh.

I do have too many guns.

Posted by: Mark Andrew Edwards at December 16, 2018 08:03 PM (xJa6I)

117 Downside is being stuck using club only non-toxic ammo at 20-27 bucks a box.

Why don't you do what many of the locals do and just go shooting out in the street with whatever ammo you can scrounge up ?

Or is open-air urban shooting enjoyed only when dark?

Posted by: Blue Bird of F'ing Joy at December 16, 2018 08:03 PM (lD3vL)

118 Posted by: Jewells45 at December 16, 2018 07:59 PM (dUJdY)
-------
Later Jewells! Thanks for stopping by!

Posted by: Weasel - Special Assistant to bluebell for NoVaMoMe 2019 at December 16, 2018 08:04 PM (MVjcR)

119 what kind of toilet costs $1k? wtf? who is this retard?

Posted by: chavez the hugo at December 16, 2018 08:05 PM (KP5rU)

120 Sure enough, there in the Pelican case in the closet was my nice, expensive, tricked out AR 15.
Posted by: Mark Andrew Edwards at December 16, 2018 08:03 PM (xJa6I)

Aw man, I bet it was so scared when it was lost. Is it OK now?

That gun better get all the tummy rubs.

Posted by: hogmartin at December 16, 2018 08:05 PM (t+qrx)

121 >>what kind of toilet costs $1k?

A nice Toto.

Posted by: garrett at December 16, 2018 08:06 PM (vhKHa)

122 mentioned this on another thread earlier, but our latest find is a practically new M-1A Springfield, with the black synthetic stock.

nearly new as in not even a primer ring on the bolt face, and only $950. can i shop or what?

it'll be home before Christmas!

Posted by: redc1c4 at December 16, 2018 08:06 PM (zJ7J0)

123 Mark Andrew Edwards @116- Don'[t feel pregnant. Mrs. E misplaced a Colt .380 presentation model in a damn recliner for almost 2 years.

Posted by: Eromero at December 16, 2018 08:06 PM (zLDYs)

124 Very useful to know when shooting at long range, but you would be DQ'd and shot (not necessarily in that order) if you used one on the line in a match.

Is there a prohibition of a confederate using one and you just happen to overhear them talking about it to someone nearby?

Posted by: Blue Bird of F'ing Joy at December 16, 2018 08:07 PM (lD3vL)

125
This is why I use a Mil Dot reticle.

Scope and rangefinder. All in one.
Posted by: garrett at December 16, 2018 07:59 PM (vhKHa)
------
You can range with a MOA scope too, just a different constant in the equation.

Posted by: Weasel - Special Assistant to bluebell for NoVaMoMe 2019 at December 16, 2018 08:07 PM (MVjcR)

126 Just watching Gates on Fox talking about people questioning the measurable CO2 levels as absurd and in the same breath claiming the average toilet cost $1K. And Chris Wallace, being the constant dolt, nods his head up and down.

So, someone who is off in his analysis of toilet cost by 300-400% is lecturing us on CO2 levels
Posted by: REDACTED at December 16, 2018 08:02 PM (L/iaS)

------------------

In their bubble world, they probably do get reamed $1k for what is a $300 item in flyover Country.

Posted by: Calm Mentor at December 16, 2018 08:07 PM (ffYR/)

127
Might be why I'm not great at adjusting sights. I much rather use Kentucky windage on fixed iron sights than fiddle with little things.

It's a flaw.
Posted by: Mark Andrew Edwards at December 16, 2018 07:59 PM (xJa6I)

Y'know, I got into a horrible argument with a friend about Kentucky Windage. He was going to teach his wife how to shoot.... his 1911 Officer's in 45ACP. She'd never shot a gun before. Note: this is emphatically NOT a first-timer's gun. He blusteringly asserted that the most important thing to learn in shooting was Kentucky Windage. Even before fundamentals like proper stance, breath control, sight picture, trigger squeeze.

Got seriously pissed when I contradicted him, because he used to be the armorer for one of the SEAL teams, and that automatically made him THE EXPERT. Dood was a decent (average) shot using the patented Jack Bauer Tea Cup Weaver Stance, and claim that he learned that while working with the SEALs. Arrrrgggghhhhh!

Luckily, I was able to talk him into teaching her with my Ruger MkII, but the whole episode makes my eyes roll.

Posted by: IllTemperedCur at December 16, 2018 08:08 PM (e0p0c)

128 Well I learned something today. Inspiration for FZs Weasel's album cover:

https://preview.tinyurl.com/opz7xfg

Posted by: freaked at December 16, 2018 08:08 PM (UdKB7)

129 10 Big shout out to Mark!

THANK YOU so very much for inviting me and my boys to the range on Saturday. We had a blast!

You are very kind and patient. The boys learned a lot and are still smiling.

If anyone has the opportunity to shoot with Mark, take it.
Posted by: Nurse ratched at December 16, 2018 07:09 PM (PkVlr)

You're welcome! You got good kids.

Any other PNW morons who want to come shooting, I shoot at West Coast Armory in Bellevue most Saturdays or 10am.

Posted by: Mark Andrew Edwards at December 16, 2018 08:08 PM (xJa6I)

130 Downside is being stuck using club only non-toxic ammo at 20-27 bucks a box.
Posted by: Blue Falcon in Boston at December 16, 2018 07:27 PM (N5dam)

I gotcher lead-free boolits right here.

Posted by: The Lone Ranger at December 16, 2018 08:09 PM (fDU8w)

131 somebody should tell these brainiacs about menards. shitters on sale for $129.00. piss wallace is as bad or worse than his commie daddy. wouldn't piss on him if he was on fire.

Posted by: chavez the hugo at December 16, 2018 08:09 PM (KP5rU)

132
Is there a prohibition of a confederate using one and you just happen to overhear them talking about it to someone nearby?
Posted by: Blue Bird of F'ing Joy at December 16, 2018 08:07 PM (lD3vL)
-----
If the match director is convinced you had help, you better believe it.

Posted by: Weasel - Special Assistant to bluebell for NoVaMoMe 2019 at December 16, 2018 08:09 PM (MVjcR)

133 No scopes or smart-phone apps used by Billy Dixon in 1874 for his famous One-Mile Shot, so there's hope for the math- and technology-challenged!

https://tinyurl.com/ycv5nc2c

https://tinyurl.com/y82co94s

Posted by: Gref at December 16, 2018 08:10 PM (AMIL/)

134 ha. Really enjoy the railroad reference Weasel. Big part of my job is putting the curve in them tracks. Makes sighting more relatable for a dumb ass like me that never connected the two.

Posted by: t-dubya-d at December 16, 2018 08:10 PM (RZWC0)

135 Calm Mentor, there is a punchline where the plumber (who drives a MB station wagon and lives 32 blocks from his heart surgeon customer) says 'I know, I didn't make that kind of money either when I was a surgeon'. Badumadum. Be sure to tip the waitress.

Posted by: Eromero at December 16, 2018 08:11 PM (zLDYs)

136 Might be why I'm not great at adjusting sights. I much rather use Kentucky windage on fixed iron sights than fiddle with little things.

It's a flaw.
Posted by: Mark Andrew Edwards at December 16, 2018 07:59 PM (xJa6I)
------------

Heh.

I shoot High Power matches using a K-31 that has iron sights. (post and notch) Without Kentucky Windage I'd have trouble putting stuff in the black.

Speaking of which, I was thrilled yesterday when I dropped two in a row in the X ring at 200 yards while shooting prone. And, on top of that, managed to keep almost everything in the black. (practice, though, so, didn't count)

Posted by: Blake - tis the season for grinching at December 16, 2018 08:11 PM (WEBkv)

137 I shoot High Power matches using a K-31 that has iron sights. (post and notch) Without Kentucky Windage I'd have trouble putting stuff in the black.

Speaking of which, I was thrilled yesterday when I dropped two in a row in the X ring at 200 yards while shooting prone. And, on top of that, managed to keep almost everything in the black. (practice, though, so, didn't count)

Posted by: Blake - tis the season for grinching at December 16, 2018 08:11 PM (WEBkv)

Sounds like a good day!

Posted by: Mark Andrew Edwards at December 16, 2018 08:12 PM (xJa6I)

138 134 ha. Really enjoy the railroad reference Weasel. Big part of my job is putting the curve in them tracks. Makes sighting more relatable for a dumb ass like me that never connected the two.
Posted by: t-dubya-d at December 16, 2018 08:10 PM (RZWC0)
-------
Glad to hear you liked it t-dubya-d. I'm an under appreciated comedian in my spare time.

Posted by: Weasel - Special Assistant to bluebell for NoVaMoMe 2019 at December 16, 2018 08:13 PM (MVjcR)

139 "'World's most modified youth' has had over 40 procedures to 'stand out'" (link to Fox News)

I take it that Welfare is rather generous in Australia. This fool will never earn a legal paycheck .

Posted by: Blue Bird of F'ing Joy at December 16, 2018 08:13 PM (lD3vL)

140 P.S. beyond about 1,500 yds the bullet flight time is long enough that you need to consider the coriolis effect in your firing solution.

I was told there would be no planetary rotation effects used on this blog!!!!!!

Posted by: Gref at December 16, 2018 08:13 PM (AMIL/)

141 >>P.S. beyond about 1,500 yds the bullet flight time is long enough that you need to consider the coriolis effect in your firing solution.

You'll have time to reflect on this as you light your smoke.

Posted by: garrett at December 16, 2018 08:15 PM (vhKHa)

142 I took the '03 Springfield to a 1000yd range for funsies. It's amazing what you can do with iron sights!

Posted by: Weasel - Special Assistant to bluebell for NoVaMoMe 2019 at December 16, 2018 08:15 PM (MVjcR)

143 When armed with a rifle, if it's over 500 meters call in a fire mission.

Posted by: THAT GUY at December 16, 2018 08:16 PM (G9Y8y)

144
Luckily, I was able to talk him into teaching her with my Ruger MkII, but the whole episode makes my eyes roll.
Posted by: IllTemperedCur at December 16, 2018 08:08 PM (e0p0c)
------------------

Good grief, I'm a 1911 guy, in fact, speak fairly fluent 1911 yet I would never advocate the 1911 as a gun for a first timer. Especially the Officer model.

Posted by: Blake - tis the season for grinching at December 16, 2018 08:16 PM (WEBkv)

145 This is why I use a Mil Dot reticle.
Scope and rangefinder. All in one.
Posted by: garrett at December 16, 2018 07:59 PM (vhKHa)
------
You can range with a MOA scope too, just a different constant in the equation.
Posted by: Weasel - Special Assistant to bluebell for NoVaMoMe 2019 at December 16, 2018 08:07 PM (MVjcR)

I like the PSO reticle for this. It's very easy to use if you don't know how to math good. The arc along the lower left quadrant is height of a 1.7m target, then just read the number and count down that many chevrons for the hold.

http://tinyurl.com/y7kxd5nt

Posted by: hogmartin at December 16, 2018 08:16 PM (t+qrx)

146 https://tinyurl.com/yd384wdo
Posted by: qdpsteve at December 16, 2018 07:47 PM (miE9U)

They missed the most important modification: removal of the lump of dead tissue at the top of the neck.

Posted by: Alberta Oil Peon at December 16, 2018 08:17 PM (fDU8w)

147 Not actually gunny, but someone mentioned astronomy above...

I scored a super sweet deal on a telescope on Facebook. Someone was just cleaning/downsizing and retiring and moving, and I got a $200 for $25.

Been raining and/or cloudy pretty much ever since.

Grrr.

Posted by: blaster at December 16, 2018 08:17 PM (ZfRYq)

148 beyond about 1,500 yds the bullet flight time is long enough that you need to consider the coriolis effect in your firing solution.

I'm amazed that ammo quality is so good now that the coriolis effect isn't noise.

Posted by: Blue Bird of F'ing Joy at December 16, 2018 08:17 PM (lD3vL)

149 He blusteringly asserted that the most important thing to learn in shooting was Kentucky Windage. Even before fundamentals like proper stance, breath control, sight picture, trigger squeeze.

Got seriously pissed when I contradicted him, because he used to be the armorer for one of the SEAL teams, and that automatically made him THE EXPERT. Dood was a decent (average) shot using the patented Jack Bauer Tea Cup Weaver Stance, and claim that he learned that while working with the SEALs. Arrrrgggghhhhh!

Luckily, I was able to talk him into teaching her with my Ruger MkII, but the whole episode makes my eyes roll.
Posted by: IllTemperedCur at December 16, 2018 08:08 PM (e0p0c)

I can't imagine that. It took me forever to understand the importance of trigger control and how to FOCUS on the front sight instead of just looking at it.

Posted by: Mark Andrew Edwards at December 16, 2018 08:17 PM (xJa6I)

150 the new subway logo looks just like safety clean. coincidence, i think not. it's toxic all the way down.

Posted by: chavez the hugo at December 16, 2018 08:18 PM (KP5rU)

151 er, I mean, the number is range in hundreds of meters and every 200 meters is another chevron down for the hold.

Posted by: hogmartin at December 16, 2018 08:18 PM (t+qrx)

152 You can range with a MOA scope too, just a different constant in the equation.

My Nightforce scope has a range-finder built in the reticle.

Posted by: Blue Bird of F'ing Joy at December 16, 2018 08:19 PM (lD3vL)

153
I'm amazed that ammo quality is so good now that the coriolis effect isn't noise.

Posted by: Blue Bird of F'ing Joy at December 16, 2018 08:17 PM (lD3vL)
-------
No way with commercially produced ammo, but with precision reloads, sure.
I know some guys that are pushing 2 miles now I think but I'll just stick with 1000 yd stuff. The hit rates at those distances can't be very consistent.

Posted by: Weasel - Special Assistant to bluebell for NoVaMoMe 2019 at December 16, 2018 08:21 PM (MVjcR)

154 Sounds like a good day!
Posted by: Mark Andrew Edwards at December 16, 2018 08:12 PM (xJa6I)
--------------

It was. I really like the challenge of shooting that kind of distance with those kinds of sights. What astounds me, though, is that there are guys with the same setup that compete at Camp Perry.

Posted by: Blake - tis the season for grinching at December 16, 2018 08:21 PM (WEBkv)

155 Blue Bird and AOP, yup

Posted by: qdpsteve at December 16, 2018 08:22 PM (miE9U)

156 although we use minutes and seconds in our calculations. its the same thing pert near, it gave me another perspective on how to approach it. thanks.!

Posted by: t-dubya-d at December 16, 2018 08:22 PM (RZWC0)

157 I find the FB Marketplace and comparing it with craigslist really interesting. Largely on CL people know the value of what they are selling.

FB they don't. Prices vary wildly. But there are some things where FB is consistently lower, and some where it is consistently higher.

Of course neither one allows firearm sales so no help there.

Posted by: blaster at December 16, 2018 08:22 PM (ZfRYq)

158 A couple of tips I've found useful for those of us who shoot traditional muzzleloaders.

I used to precut patches for each caliber. That usually works well for the 50 calibers but it can get more difficult for the 40 and 32 calibers. I now lube strips of the patch material, get the ball/patch combo started in the bore and cut off the excess at the muzzle. It makes the loading process more predictable and consistent. It does call for a very sharp knife, preferably not too long. Some use an old straight razor.

Second tip. Some barrels like to be wiped after each shot or two. I have a 50 caliber pistol like that. If at the range, I keep a rod with tow attached to run down the barrel. Tow has a lot of uses for muzzleloaders, it's cheap and can be rinsed, dried and reused many times. When it wears, it can be dried and used t capture the spark in a fire starting kit using flint and steel. Also, it does a good job as an over powder and over shot wad in smoothbores.

Posted by: JTB at December 16, 2018 08:23 PM (bmdz3)

159 Math?

You mean I had to learn Algebra with Finance in high school to be a sniper?

Damn it!

Posted by: Delaforce the Air Mechanic at December 16, 2018 08:23 PM (/Jwo8)

160
Good grief, I'm a 1911 guy, in fact, speak fairly fluent 1911 yet I would never advocate the 1911 as a gun for a first timer. Especially the Officer model.
Posted by: Blake - tis the season for grinching at December 16, 2018 08:16 PM (WEBkv)

That's exactly why I talked him into using my Ruger. I'd shot his Officer's model before and nicknamed it The LLF or "Little Loud Fucker". Seriously fun gun, but as I said, not a first-timer's.

Posted by: IllTemperedCur at December 16, 2018 08:24 PM (e0p0c)

161 Just watching Gates on Fox talking about people questioning the measurable CO2 levels as absurd and in the same breath claiming the average toilet cost $1K. And Chris Wallace, being the constant dolt, nods his head up and down.

So, someone who is off in his analysis of toilet cost by 300-400% is lecturing us on CO2 levels
Posted by: REDACTED at December 16, 2018 08:02 PM (L/iaS)

A quick look at Home Depot indicates toilets starting at $119, so he is out by nearly a factor of ten.

Posted by: Alberta Oil Peon at December 16, 2018 08:24 PM (fDU8w)

162 P.S. beyond about 1,500 yds the bullet flight time is long enough that you need to consider the coriolis effect in your firing solution.
Posted by: Weasel - Special Assistant to bluebell for NoVaMoMe 2019 at December 16, 2018 08:02 PM (MVjcR)

Which depends upon the direction you are shooting, right?

Posted by: Alberta Oil Peon at December 16, 2018 08:25 PM (fDU8w)

163 A nice Toto.
Posted by: garrett at December 16, 2018 08:06 PM (vhKHa)

Down the drain in Africa.

Posted by: Alberta Oil Peon at December 16, 2018 08:26 PM (fDU8w)

164 Random note about magnified optics and related accessories;

Laser rangefinders used to all be either expensive as shit (think 3-10k) or wishy-washy in terms of effective range (like limited to 700-900 yards on anything you'd want to actually range, and not super reliable at that). Now a noob precision shooter can pick up a unit that will effortlessly range as far as they can reasonably shoot, or think they might want to shoot, for about 500 bucks from SIG.

If you are serious about hitting something far away or zeroing things with a shorter reach, they're a must-have.

However, be aware - most of those lasers will light the place up like the 4th of July to anyone with the proper equipment who is looking for them. Even obsolete NV will see it.

Similarly of interest, there exist devices that automatically detect the presence of anything with a lens pointed at or near the device. An individual is generally not going to get their hands on the sort of thing needed to ascertain that one of these is in use (related to the LRF warning), and there are no direct countermeasures - but its not hard to figure out weaknesses.

Posted by: lurker (the other one) at December 16, 2018 08:27 PM (67XdO)

165
Which depends upon the direction you are shooting, right?

Posted by: Alberta Oil Peon at December 16, 2018 08:25 PM (fDU8w)
-------
depends on which hemisphere you're in.

Posted by: Weasel at December 16, 2018 08:28 PM (MVjcR)

166 Before funny bullet story, I have a question for Obi-Weasel:
Can you describe the sequence of events you use for setting up a shot, and what of the equations are you doing in your head at the last second?

Posted by: RI Red at December 16, 2018 08:28 PM (vbpRb)

167 Speaking of toilets, Ed Driscoll @instapundit has a snippet of news about Starbucks, aka "You No Poo". Too many freeloaders were going in there to, er, offload; so now if you need to do the same, the managers will - literally - point you to Dunkin [donuts].

This Is Why We Can't Have Nice Things.

Posted by: boulder terlit hobo at December 16, 2018 08:29 PM (ykYG2)

168 Which depends upon the direction you are shooting, right?
Posted by: Alberta Oil Peon at December 16, 2018 08:25 PM (fDU8w)
--------------

Now there's a fascinating question. Shooting into the rotation of the earth means the target would have moved toward you while the opposite direction would move the target way. Then, there's shooting at an angle relative to the rotation of the earth.

I wonder if latitude would affect calculations?

Weasel, over to you!

Posted by: Blake - tis the season for grinching at December 16, 2018 08:30 PM (WEBkv)

169 Weasel-

Do you know of any phone or tablet apps that run G7?
All I nun across are G1

Posted by: DBCooper at December 16, 2018 08:30 PM (bttOm)

170 Even the simple "Duplex" reticles found in common 3x9x40 (for example) hunting scopes, also serve as a reliable "rangefinder" in approximate terms.

Usually, the fine-portion of the reticle spans a fixed, known distance at 100 yards. Sixteen inches at 100 yards is a common span in those sporting reticles.

Why?

Because in VERY approximate terms, that's the distance between the ear-tips (when the ears are out "horizontal"), of a typical whitetail buck.

And it's concurrent that a typical Eight Point rack tends to approximate that same span.

Quite a few States, and a great many hunting clubs have an absolute Eight Point minimum to constitute a Legal Buck, and you'd want to have some sense of confidence in your estimation of that rack before pulling the trigger.

Fun times at the range. The overwhelming herd of hunting-season-only shooters come out and check zero at 100 yards. Most of them shoot a pattern and not a group.

Damn few of those same hunters move over to the 200 yard bench to test themselves and their gear at that distance.

Fewer still take any kind of Range Notes.

If you're coaching newer shooters, insist that they become diligent in recording proper Range Notes.

A decent lil' bound notebook is cheap enough, and it makes a nice gift, from instructor to student.

Show's 'em you're serious about teaching. And hopefully, inspires them a bit more to be equally serious about learning.

Jim
Sunk New Dawn
Galveston, TX

Posted by: Jim at December 16, 2018 08:30 PM (QzJWU)

171 Second tip. Some barrels like to be wiped after each shot or two.
Posted by: JTB at December 16, 2018 08:23 PM (bmdz3)

I run a patch down the bore of my rifle between every shot, just as a habit to make sure there are no embers and the rod bottoms out at the same point at the muzzle (just another check against double charging). It takes long enough to reload that I figure the extra swab doesn't add much time, but I guess I never tried going a few rounds without to see if it makes a difference in accuracy.

Posted by: hogmartin at December 16, 2018 08:31 PM (t+qrx)

172 Which depends upon the direction you are shooting, right?

Posted by: Alberta Oil Peon at December 16, 2018 08:25 PM (fDU8w)
-------
depends on which hemisphere you're in.

Posted by: Weasel at December 16, 2018 08:28 PM (MVjcR)
------
and although I don't shoot those distances with any frequency, E/W vs. N/S can cause elevation changes.

Posted by: Weasel at December 16, 2018 08:31 PM (MVjcR)

173 Before funny bullet story, I have a question for Obi-Weasel:
Can you describe the sequence of events you use for setting up a shot, and what of the equations are you doing in your head at the last second?

Posted by: RI Red at December 16, 2018 08:28 PM (vbpRb)
-----
Sure - but is it OK if I answer that next week? It'll take me a little bit to type that!

Posted by: Weasel at December 16, 2018 08:34 PM (MVjcR)

174
I can't imagine that. It took me forever to understand the importance of trigger control and how to FOCUS on the front sight instead of just looking at it.

I have been working on a technique of ranging / aiming / firing that serves me well in archery, shotgun, pistol and rifle and that is kentucky windage everything by guestimating range, calculating hold over and windage while moving the appropriate dot into position in one smooth motion - pulling the trigger or releasing the arrow slightly before the sight reaches the intended POA. Sort of like clay shooting only on non-moving targets.

I'll never win tournaments with that style, but I sure as heck can quickly engage and 10-ring 3D targets, clays, steel and paper.

Posted by: Blue Bird of F'ing Joy at December 16, 2018 08:35 PM (lD3vL)

175 Sure - but is it OK if I answer that next week? It'll take me a little bit to type that!
Posted by: Weasel at December 16, 2018 08:34 PM (MVjcR)

-----------------

Sounds like great gun thread fodder, Very cool idea.

Posted by: Blake - tis the season for grinching at December 16, 2018 08:36 PM (WEBkv)

176
Weasel, over to you!

Posted by: Blake - tis the season for grinching at December 16, 2018 08:30 PM (WEBkv)
-----
briefly, E/W the target is rising or falling (so elevation). N/S it's mostly rotational. This is a HUGE oversimplification!

Posted by: Weasel at December 16, 2018 08:37 PM (MVjcR)

177 Is there a recommendation for a 5.56 mil 1-4x scope which doesn't cost $$$? It is unlikely I would ever shoot it at anything over 2-300 yards away. Mainly home and property defense. Or would just a red dot be enough?

Posted by: EdmundBurkesShade at December 16, 2018 08:37 PM (0MIFZ)

178 OT/

I got the Christmas Tree tonight... but it soaking wet from the non stop rain last two days. Question... will bringing it in tonight dry it out from quick evaporation?

Posted by: Serious Cat at December 16, 2018 08:38 PM (GtG/j)

179 Fewer still take any kind of Range Notes.

Unless a hunter is using triplex powder, it is sort of pointless for a Houstonian to sight in his rifle at home then expect it to be spot on when he is hunting in the New Mexico highlands a few months later.

Posted by: Blue Bird of F'ing Joy at December 16, 2018 08:39 PM (lD3vL)

180 No one ever talks about me!

*runs sobbing from the room*

Posted by: Grads at December 16, 2018 08:40 PM (CDGwz)

181 Before this thread dies, what is a BZO "Battle Sight Zero" and how does that relate to either a MOA or MIL scope?

Lets say that the rifle is military 5.56 or 7.62

Posted by: Blue Bird of F'ing Joy at December 16, 2018 08:41 PM (lD3vL)

182 169 Weasel-

Do you know of any phone or tablet apps that run G7?
All I nun across are G1
Posted by: DBCooper at December 16, 2018 08:30 PM (bttOm)
-------
BALLISTIC AE app has G1 and G7 profiles.

Posted by: Weasel - Special Assistant to bluebell for NoVaMoMe 2019 at December 16, 2018 08:41 PM (MVjcR)

183 143 When armed with a rifle, if it's over 500 meters call in a fire mission.
Posted by: THAT GUY at December 16, 2018 08:16 PM (G9Y8y)

Arc Light.

Posted by: Fox2! at December 16, 2018 08:41 PM (MwFQu)

184 That'd be great, Weasel. I know a lot of theory, but would love to have somebody talk me through it. You do have a bunkhouse at Weasel Acres, right?

Posted by: RI Red at December 16, 2018 08:42 PM (vbpRb)

185 I still can't do math.

And even though that might be proof that black people aren't as smart, I really don't care at this point.

Posted by: Hikaru at December 16, 2018 08:43 PM (pgXNG)

186 Unless a hunter is using triplex powder, it is sort of pointless for a Houstonian to sight in his rifle at home then expect it to be spot on when he is hunting in the New Mexico highlands a few months later.
Posted by: Blue Bird of F'ing Joy at December 16, 2018 08:39 PM (lD3vL)

I had to read this a second time before I realized you weren't talking about firing a shot into the air in Houston and doing a little fist-pump on your couch a few months later as it drops out of orbit and drills a mule deer 900 miles away.

Posted by: hogmartin at December 16, 2018 08:44 PM (t+qrx)

187 Or would just a red dot be enough?

For defensive, YES. I have en EOTech on a Tavor and can reliably hit steel from any reasonable shooting position out to 200 yards. (After that I need a stable platform and a flip-over magnifier).

Your target is likely moving so you want something you can quickly focus with both eyes open.

Posted by: Blue Bird of F'ing Joy at December 16, 2018 08:44 PM (lD3vL)

188 Fewer still take any kind of Range Notes.
--------
Excellent point. I have a range book for every rifle/caliber that I shoot competitively, and record certain data throughout the day as I shoot. It's hugely important. More on that next week.

Posted by: Weasel - Special Assistant to bluebell for NoVaMoMe 2019 at December 16, 2018 08:44 PM (MVjcR)

189 I got the Christmas Tree tonight... but it soaking wet from the non stop rain last two days. Question... will bringing it in tonight dry it out from quick evaporation?
Posted by: Serious Cat
-----------

Almost certainly, but, of course you'll have to carry a wet, drippy tree through the house, and place something underneath so that it doesn't drip on the floor.

I'm thinking that the humidity in the house might go up a bit also.

Posted by: Mike Hammer, etc., etc. at December 16, 2018 08:44 PM (xSo9G)

190 I had to read this a second time before I realized you weren't talking about firing a shot into the air in Houston and doing a little fist-pump on your couch a few months later as it drops out of orbit and drills a mule deer 900 miles away.

Yeah, the coriolis effect would have to be calculated in.

Posted by: Blue Bird of F'ing Joy at December 16, 2018 08:45 PM (lD3vL)

191 ...Fewer still take any kind of Range Notes.

Unless a hunter is using triplex powder, it is sort of pointless for a Houstonian to sight in his rifle at home then expect it to be spot on when he is hunting in the New Mexico highlands a few months later.

Posted by: Blue Bird of F'ing Joy at December 16, 2018 08:39 PM (lD3vL)

But the average Houstonian hunter will be hunting Bambi somewhere within a two or three hour radius of Downtown Houston, so those Range Notes can still be of great value.

Especially in South Texas, where the 400 yard shot down a long sendero is not an unusual occurrence.

I do concur with you though as to ANY hunter who travels far or high. Re-shoot at (or near) your base camp to verify zero, and make any required adjustments.

Jim
Sunk New Dawn
Galveston, TX

Posted by: Jim at December 16, 2018 08:45 PM (QzJWU)

192 I can calculate ANY Coriolis Effect adjustments for you, easey-peasey!

Posted by: Minuteman III Guidance System at December 16, 2018 08:46 PM (AMIL/)

193 I have en EOTech on a Tavor and can reliably hit steel from any reasonable shooting position out to 200 yards.
Posted by: Blue Bird of F'ing Joy at December 16, 2018 08:44 PM (lD3vL)

What's your opinion on the Tavor trigger?

Posted by: hogmartin at December 16, 2018 08:46 PM (t+qrx)

194 Excellent point. I have a range book for every rifle/caliber that I shoot

Oh boy! Pro tips on making a dope chart.

Looking forward to it.

Posted by: Blue Bird of F'ing Joy at December 16, 2018 08:46 PM (lD3vL)

195
Is there a recommendation for a 5.56 mil 1-4x scope which doesn't cost $$$? It is unlikely I would ever shoot it at anything over 2-300 yards away. Mainly home and property defense. Or would just a red dot be enough?
Posted by: EdmundBurkesShade at December 16, 2018 08:37 PM (0MIFZ)

I'm thinking a red dot is the thing for that kind of work. That's what I decided on for my defensive rifle, because I figure if it's anything more than 100-150 yards out, I'm not likely to be in the clear legally or morally to take the shot.

However, the Primary Arms 1x4 has a pretty good reputation for a low-cost but usable scope. The guys on the CalGuns forum were big fans when I used to comment over there. I have a PA 3x9 on my 10-22 that I like a lot, but recreational rimfire is definitely a different situation.

https://tinyurl.com/y9sv4ufc

Posted by: IllTemperedCur at December 16, 2018 08:46 PM (e0p0c)

196 [Last week, discussion in the comments turned to measurement conventions for riflescopes; MOA or Minutes Of Angle, and Mil or Milliradian.]

I use a shotgun.

Posted by: JBSPRY at December 16, 2018 08:47 PM (d/n9j)

197 Come on, Algebra. This is no place for you.

Posted by: Zombie Stymie at December 16, 2018 08:47 PM (Tyii7)

198 And even though that might be proof that black people aren't as smart, I really don't care at this point.
Posted by: Hikaru
----------

Well, I know that more white people can't do math than non-white people can't do math.

Posted by: Mike Hammer, etc., etc. at December 16, 2018 08:47 PM (xSo9G)

199 184 That'd be great, Weasel. I know a lot of theory, but would love to have somebody talk me through it. You do have a bunkhouse at Weasel Acres, right?
Posted by: RI Red at December 16, 2018 08:42 PM (vbpRb)
------
You bet I do! I'm still hoping to hold some small shooting clinics next summer/fall.

Posted by: Weasel - Special Assistant to bluebell for NoVaMoMe 2019 at December 16, 2018 08:49 PM (MVjcR)

200 lso.
Posted by: Mike Hammer, etc., etc. at December 16, 2018 08:44 PM (xSo9G)

I meant to say will it harm the tree from quick evaporation... but fuck it. I'm gonna assume these things are hardy enough and I want this to fall out overnight so that I can string the lights the next evening. Gonna do what you suggest and put down a drop sheet to keep sapping water from getting on carpet.

Posted by: Serious Cat at December 16, 2018 08:50 PM (GtG/j)

201 But the average Houstonian hunter will be hunting Bambi somewhere within a two or three hour radius of Downtown Houston, so those Range Notes can still be of great value.

Where I live, I just step outside with a baseball bat to harvest these antlered rats.

Posted by: Blue Bird of F'ing Joy at December 16, 2018 08:52 PM (lD3vL)

202 I have been working on a technique of ranging / aiming / firing that serves me well in archery, shotgun, pistol and rifle and that is kentucky windage everything by guestimating range, calculating hold over and windage while moving the appropriate dot into position in one smooth motion - pulling the trigger or releasing the arrow slightly before the sight reaches the intended POA. Sort of like clay shooting only on non-moving targets.

I have an old British book on shotgun shooting that advocates a similar method - swing up the gun and squeeze the trigger the moment the sights line up properly.

Makes for a good snap-shooting technique, or so he claims.

Posted by: Grey Fox at December 16, 2018 08:53 PM (bZ7mE)

203
You bet I do! I'm still hoping to hold some small shooting clinics next summer/fall.

That is a NoVaMoMe I can travel for.

Posted by: Blue Bird of F'ing Joy at December 16, 2018 08:53 PM (lD3vL)

204 A bigger effect than coriolis is the spin drift of a bullet. Between 1/2 and 1 MOA at 1000yds.

Posted by: Weasel - Special Assistant to bluebell for NoVaMoMe 2019 at December 16, 2018 08:53 PM (MVjcR)

205 192 I can calculate ANY Coriolis Effect adjustments for you, easey-peasey!
Posted by: Minuteman III Guidance System at December 16, 2018 08:46 PM (AMIL/)

------------------------

Whatever, junior.

Posted by: USS Iowa Mark 1A Fire Control Computer at December 16, 2018 08:55 PM (WEBkv)

206 I have an old British book on shotgun shooting that advocates a similar method - swing up the gun and squeeze the trigger the moment the sights line up properly.

Makes for a good snap-shooting technique, or so he claims.

Posted by: Grey Fox at December 16, 2018 08:53 PM (bZ7mE)

I like swinging my arm real fast and then the bullet curves in - really useful when there is something between you and the target.

Posted by: blaster at December 16, 2018 08:55 PM (ZfRYq)

207 I still can't do math.

And even though that might be proof that black people aren't as smart, I really don't care at this point.
Posted by: Hikaru at December 16, 2018 08:43 PM (pgXNG)

This isn't even math. Deriving the formulas above is math. Plugging numbers into the blanks, and turning the crank, is just arithmetic. And anyone can do it.

Posted by: Alberta Oil Peon at December 16, 2018 08:56 PM (fDU8w)

208
Whatever, junior.
Posted by: USS Iowa Mark 1A Fire Control Computer at December 16, 2018 08:55 PM (WEBkv)
------
Wasn't the term 'computer' coined from all the women at home making ballistic computations for big naval guns and artillery?

Posted by: Weasel - Special Assistant to bluebell for NoVaMoMe 2019 at December 16, 2018 08:57 PM (MVjcR)

209 204 A bigger effect than coriolis is the spin drift of a bullet. Between 1/2 and 1 MOA at 1000yds.
Posted by: Weasel - Special Assistant to bluebell for NoVaMoMe 2019 at December 16, 2018 08:53 PM (MVjcR)
-------------------

Sounds like shooting long distances is a blend of engineering and art.

Posted by: Blake - tis the season for grinching at December 16, 2018 08:57 PM (WEBkv)

210 @ Hikaru.

Let's set the math aside for a moment.

Can you swing a bat and get some decent hits in slow-pitch softball?

Not "Babe Ruth", but at least semi-regular contact with the ball.

'Cause math aside, there are reticle systems out there where you can just put the bad-guy's torso in one of the different sized circles, and the circle that fits closest to his belt buckle to adam's apple, would match "the dope" close enough to pretty much guarantee you an "A" zone hit.

Provided of course, neutral winds and having that scope very precisely "zeroed" to begin with.

I'll wager that me, Weasel or many others here, could have you holding "in the black" out to 300 yards, in just a day or two of careful coaching.

If you excel at that distance and want to tackle longer ranges, you'll find the motivation to do so.

And outside of sanctioned matches, I'd encourage you to use all of the Kestrel wind measures and Ballistics Caluclators as you can find to use.

Those'll do the math FOR you.

That elk across the valley ain't gonna call the Match Director to file a protest, y'know.

Jim
Sunk New Dawn
Galveston, TX

Posted by: Jim at December 16, 2018 08:58 PM (QzJWU)

211
Sounds like shooting long distances is a blend of engineering and art.
Posted by: Blake - tis the season for grinching at December 16, 2018 08:57 PM (WEBkv)
------
You absolutely nailed it!

Posted by: Weasel - Special Assistant to bluebell for NoVaMoMe 2019 at December 16, 2018 08:59 PM (MVjcR)

212 195
Is there a recommendation for a 5.56 mil 1-4x scope which doesn't cost $$$? It is unlikely I would ever shoot it at anything over 2-300 yards away. Mainly home and property defense. Or would just a red dot be enough?
Posted by: EdmundBurkesShade at December 16, 2018 08:37 PM (0MIFZ)

I'm thinking a red dot is the thing for that kind of work. That's what I decided on for my defensive rifle, because I figure if it's anything more than 100-150 yards out, I'm not likely to be in the clear legally or morally to take the shot.

However, the Primary Arms 1x4 has a pretty good reputation for a low-cost but usable scope. The guys on the CalGuns forum were big fans when I used to comment over there. I have a PA 3x9 on my 10-22 that I like a lot, but recreational rimfire is definitely a different situation.

https://tinyurl.com/y9sv4ufc
Posted by: IllTemperedCur at December 16, 2018 08:46 PM (e0p0c)

I like holosun, if you're shooting at under 100 yards. They have a great ACSS reticle model I love.

$219 on Amazon right now

Posted by: Mark Andrew Edwards at December 16, 2018 08:59 PM (xJa6I)

213 'Cause math aside, there are reticle systems out there where you can just put the bad-guy's torso in one of the different sized circles, and the circle that fits closest to his belt buckle to adam's apple, would match "the dope" close enough to pretty much guarantee you an "A" zone hit.

This, I'm not very good a math. But I can hit a ball with a bat and hit a target.

I get the concept of math, it's the details that fk with me.

Posted by: Infidel at December 16, 2018 09:02 PM (PF4TZ)

214 Next week, we should examine scope adjustment for parallax...

Posted by: Zettai Roshia-no Botto at December 16, 2018 09:03 PM (CLcKT)

215 What's your opinion on the Tavor trigger?

Original Tavor, eh - about what you expect for a bullpup. The X95 much improved about the quality of an aftermarket. Certainly no glass-rod. Its CQB all the way.

Posted by: Blue Bird of F'ing Joy at December 16, 2018 09:03 PM (lD3vL)

216 Posted by: Jim at December 16, 2018 08:58 PM (QzJWU)
---------
WeaselWoman, who had never fired a rifle in her life, was in the black, and pretty damn close to the middle of it, at 700m after about 15 minutes. I'd set everything up for her which is kind of cheating, and was calling the wind, but with a little coaching a lot of the mystery goes away. I REALLY want to hold a little (free) clinic for some of you guys.

Posted by: Weasel - Special Assistant to bluebell for NoVaMoMe 2019 at December 16, 2018 09:04 PM (MVjcR)

217
I get the concept of math, it's the details that fk with me.
Posted by: Infidel at December 16, 2018 09:02 PM (PF4TZ)

'zactly. I'm like Baldrick, 3 beans plus 4 beans equals a tasty casserole.

Posted by: IllTemperedCur at December 16, 2018 09:04 PM (e0p0c)

218 Only one matters-

Time on Target

Posted by: Mikos will fire when ready, Gridley at December 16, 2018 09:04 PM (zCyNd)

219 parallax:

Spanish for more than one, but less than three yaks.

Posted by: Alberta Oil Peon at December 16, 2018 09:04 PM (fDU8w)

220 Ok, story time. My baby sister is a really nice sister, but she's one of the Mothers Against Having Fun With Things That Make Loud Scary Noises. She also has had a fair amount of Lefty brainwashing.

So, she visited Schloss Red last week and I showed her my loading bench and all of the fine tools. She was impressed that I was shaving thousandths of inches off of cartridges. Wasn't sure of the reaction I was going to get, but I got some nervous vibes.

So I handed her a nice shiny FMJ .45 bullet. She took it, looked at it, weighed it in her hand and finally said, "It's weird, but it's sort of beautiful. Like jewelry."
Now that was a huge breakthrough. So this week I took that same bullet, drilled a small hole through it near the base and ran a gold necklace chain through it.
I wasn't sure how Mrs. Red was going to react, because she often looks askance at my hoplophiliac tendencies, but I finally showed it to her. She loved it! She did wonder if I could do a little smaller bullet so my sister might actually wear it, but I told her I'm going for "max impact".
It's going to get wrapped around the neck of a bottle of Gunpowder Gin and delivered to her for Christmas.
I'll make a gunny out of her yet.

Post script to long-winded story. I did the same thing with a 6mm rifle bullet (very sexy - too bad Jewells left early tonight), and it's going in Mrs Red's stocking.
If she doesn't wear the damn thing, I will!

Posted by: RI Red at December 16, 2018 09:05 PM (vbpRb)

221 214 Next week, we should examine scope adjustment for parallax...
Posted by: Zettai Roshia-no Botto at December 16, 2018 09:03 PM (CLcKT)
-------
Ugh.

OK!

Posted by: Weasel - Special Assistant to bluebell for NoVaMoMe 2019 at December 16, 2018 09:05 PM (MVjcR)

222 I have EOtech, Sig Romeo, Leupold, Bushnell, Nikon, Vortec and others and do ok at hunting. That's what really matters to me. So, I'm mathchallenged, I can still eat fairly well.

Posted by: Eromero at December 16, 2018 09:06 PM (zLDYs)

223 Am I in time for the MILF vs MOA smackdown?

Posted by: Cicero (@cicero) at December 16, 2018 09:07 PM (93ZJL)

224 Wow....I have an Astra 600! And it has great sentimental value in spite of the fact that it's like holding a clunky lead weight in your hand.

Posted by: CharlieBrown'sDildo at December 16, 2018 09:08 PM (wYseH)

225 My boys and I had the privilege of shooting at a 1000 hard range under the tuttlage of some air force snipers. They had spotters along the course monitoring wind speed and changes that would affect the trajectory of the round. We all not only hit the targets, but we all were pretty good shots

Posted by: Nurse ratched at December 16, 2018 09:08 PM (PkVlr)

226 223 Am I in time for the MILF vs MOA smackdown?
Posted by: Cicero (@cicero) at December 16, 2018 09:07 PM (93ZJL)
------
I think MILFs are a subtopic in the ONT.

Posted by: Weasel - Special Assistant to bluebell for NoVaMoMe 2019 at December 16, 2018 09:08 PM (MVjcR)

227 I remember about five years ago, there was an Austin startup that combined a Linux based computer to a scope and rifle so where for about $17k you can have an auto sighting rifle. Just identify the target and pull the trigger when its time - the gadgets do all of the rest.

Posted by: Blue Bird of F'ing Joy at December 16, 2018 09:08 PM (lD3vL)

228 210 Jim
Sunk New Dawn
Galveston, TX
Posted by: Jim at December 16, 2018 08:58 PM (QzJWU)

There was a time when I had to do Softball back in High School.

I was 2-2, 1 HR, 7 RBI.

Posted by: Hikaru at December 16, 2018 09:09 PM (pgXNG)

229 228>>>

2 HR, actually.

Posted by: Hikaru at December 16, 2018 09:10 PM (pgXNG)

230 Has anyone had some trigger time behind a Leupold D-EVO ?

Posted by: Blue Bird of F'ing Joy at December 16, 2018 09:10 PM (lD3vL)

231 214 Next week, we should examine scope adjustment for parallax...
Posted by: Zettai Roshia-no Botto at December 16, 2018 09:03 PM (CLcKT)

--------------

Heh. Had a scope that seemed okay until I tried to fire the rifle from prone and got eaten alive by parallax. Turned out, I'd set the scope to far back. Once adjusted, was able to find the cheek weld with ease.

Posted by: Blake - tis the season for grinching at December 16, 2018 09:10 PM (WEBkv)

232 Posted by: Nurse ratched at December 16, 2018 09:08 PM (PkVlr)
-----
Nice!! Glad to hear it. It is SO MUCH FUN to show someone how to do something they first think is impossible. I remember the first time I saw a 1000yd range and thought "no way".

Posted by: Weasel - Special Assistant to bluebell for NoVaMoMe 2019 at December 16, 2018 09:11 PM (xV9FI)

233 Post script to long-winded story. I did the same thing with a 6mm rifle bullet (very sexy - too bad Jewells left early tonight), and it's going in Mrs Red's stocking.
If she doesn't wear the damn thing, I will!

Actually just peeked back in. I keep promising I'm going to get back into experimenting so I think you gave me that push I needed.

Posted by: Jewells45 at December 16, 2018 09:12 PM (dUJdY)

234 Good night you rootin' tootin' shootin' cowpokes. I'm about to pull a saddle blanket (over this revolver in my hand0 up to my chin, put my bootsoles toward the fire, my hat over my face and sleep awhile.

Posted by: Eromero at December 16, 2018 09:12 PM (zLDYs)

235 Nice!! Glad to hear it. It is SO MUCH FUN to show someone how to do something they first think is impossible. I remember the first time I saw a 1000yd range and thought "no way".
Posted by: Weasel - Special Assistant to bluebell for NoVaMoMe 2019 at December 16, 2018 09:11 PM (xV9FI)
------------------

After Weasel school, will there be a "thousand yard milk jug challenge?"

Posted by: Blake - tis the season for grinching at December 16, 2018 09:12 PM (WEBkv)

236 I think MILFs are a subtopic in the ONT.
Posted by: Weasel - Special Assistant to bluebell for NoVaMoMe 2019 at December 16, 2018 09:08 PM (MVjcR)

May we come out and play now since its 9:15pm. We finished our math lessons, Master Weasel.

Posted by: Lisa Ann, Kourtney Kane, and Jessica Jaymes at December 16, 2018 09:13 PM (Fh/kv)

237 May we come out and play now since its 9:15pm. We finished our math lessons, Master Weasel.
Posted by: Lisa Ann, Kourtney Kane, and Jessica Jaymes at December 16, 2018 09:13 PM (Fh/kv)

--------

Oh please oh please oh please, Master Weasel!

Posted by: Cicero (@cicero) at December 16, 2018 09:14 PM (93ZJL)

238 "177
Is there a recommendation for a 5.56 mil 1-4x scope which doesn't cost
$$$? It is unlikely I would ever shoot it at anything over 2-300 yards
away. Mainly home and property defense. Or would just a red dot be
enough?

Posted by: EdmundBurkesShade at December 16, 2018 08:37 PM (0MIFZ)"
Red dot is perfectly workable for those distances. If you have astigmatism, co-witness the dot with a rear peep sight, it will clear it up if it's the style dot that can deform (some do, some don't).
"181
Before this thread dies, what is a BZO "Battle Sight Zero" and how does that relate to either a MOA or MIL scope?

Lets say that the rifle is military 5.56 or 7.62

Posted by: Blue Bird of F'ing Joy at December 16, 2018 08:41 PM (lD3vL"
BZO is just some standard way to zero a given rifle.

For the M16 and M4, there are various methods relating to setting it up properly to use the A2 style elevation wheel, either of the 800 or 600m variety, respectively.
For the AKM/AK-74 series, you typically have a specific setting on the leaf sight with some cyrillic wingding symbol, that you're supposed to set the leaf to and shoot at some specific distance.
In both cases, you set the sight to something specific, zero at a distance, then can use the built-in elevation scale.
Or, as I described above, if you're shooting a dot and just about anything modern in a rifle caliber, zero it at 50 and call it good.

Posted by: lurker (the other one) at December 16, 2018 09:14 PM (67XdO)

239
Actually just peeked back in. I keep promising I'm going to get back into experimenting so I think you gave me that push I needed.
Posted by: Jewells45 at December 16, 2018 09:12 PM (dUJdY)
-------
We bought a friend a pair of earrings made from .22 cal cartridges. Very cool and look easy to make -just need to scare up empty brass and bullets.

Posted by: Weasel - Special Assistant to bluebell for NoVaMoMe 2019 at December 16, 2018 09:14 PM (MVjcR)

240 Guys give me some ideas.. like what size works good.. what caliber.. whatever. I think I bought too big last time and got overwhelmed.

Posted by: Jewells45 at December 16, 2018 09:14 PM (dUJdY)

241 OK, since math has been used in the blog.
To find out what the moa of your rifle is with you shooting it, the NRA standard method is to fire 5 each 5 shot groups at 5 separate targets on a piece of paper. (Obviously requires a sheet with multiple targets on it) at 100 yards. Measure the maximum distance (center of a hole to center of a hole) the bullets in each group are apart. Record that distance for all 5 groups, add the distances up and divide by 5. If your result is less than 1.047 " - congratulations you have a sub one moa rifle. If it is 2.5" divide 2.5 by 1.047 = 2.38 moa.
Is there a way to do it without having multiple targets? Yes fire the same 25 shots at a single target. Find the radius of the circle that covers one half of your shots. That is the circular error probable (CEP). Multiply that radius by 2.84 and you have your accuracy in moa. Example, the radius containing 12 and 1/2 shots is one inch. The moa of the rifle is 1 X 2.84 = 2.84 moa.
The problem with the NRA method is that a single flyer can affect your moa calculation drastically. The second method does not care about a single flyer, but the measurement of the size of the CEP is harder.

Posted by: An Observation at December 16, 2018 09:15 PM (6eek5)

242 240 Guys give me some ideas.. like what size works good.. what caliber.. whatever. I think I bought too big last time and got overwhelmed.
Posted by: Jewells45 at December 16, 2018 09:14 PM (dUJdY)

---------

I won't wear anything smaller than 9mm.

Posted by: Cicero (@cicero) at December 16, 2018 09:15 PM (93ZJL)

243
After Weasel school, will there be a "thousand yard milk jug challenge?"
Posted by: Blake - tis the season for grinching at December 16, 2018 09:12 PM (WEBkv)
-----
Milk jug at 1000yds? That's about right!

Posted by: Weasel - Special Assistant to bluebell for NoVaMoMe 2019 at December 16, 2018 09:16 PM (MVjcR)

244
Has anyone had some trigger time behind a Leupold D-EVO ?
Posted by: Blue Bird of F'ing Joy

Whippet good

Posted by: Bertram Cabot, Jr. at December 16, 2018 09:16 PM (aKsyK)

245 Guns N Boobs Gun Thread Compliance Videos

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PksO9DOBndU

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NlYef5IVoZc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W_Dpr4QIavQ

Posted by: kbdabear at December 16, 2018 09:16 PM (0Ntuf)

246 Okay, well I have two days off after Christmas so mission (should I choose to accept it) is to do some research.

Posted by: Jewells45 at December 16, 2018 09:16 PM (dUJdY)

247 I think my brain must be too old and worn out to handle this stuff. But good thread anyway.

Posted by: rickl at December 16, 2018 09:16 PM (sdi6R)

248
Oh please oh please oh please, Master Weasel!
Posted by: Cicero (@cicero) at December 16, 2018 09:14 PM (93ZJL)
-----
Open thread!!

Posted by: Weasel - Special Assistant to bluebell for NoVaMoMe 2019 at December 16, 2018 09:17 PM (MVjcR)

249 I REALLY want to hold a little (free) clinic for some of you guys.

Posted by: Weasel - Special Assistant to bluebell for NoVaMoMe 2019 at December 16, 2018 09:04 PM (MVjcR)

Weasel,
What "minimum" caliber/gun/sight combos would you want people to bring? I know the combos are infinite, so maybe it's easier to list what NOT to bring. Like no .223 AR-15's with barrels shorter than xx inches, as a possible example. Not asking for an answer tonight!

Posted by: Gref at December 16, 2018 09:17 PM (AMIL/)

250 Maths? Oh I don't think so!

Closes door quietly, tiptoes out.

Posted by: Rosasharn at December 16, 2018 09:17 PM (PzBTm)

251 parallax:

Spanish for more than one, but less than three yaks.

Posted by: Alberta Oil Peon at December 16, 2018 09:04 PM

It took a while, but now I get it: Pair o' llaks!

It's like a pair o' llamas, innit?

Posted by: Zettai Roshia-no Botto at December 16, 2018 09:18 PM (CLcKT)

252 Jewells, I'm agonna send you some pix. It was actually easier than I thought (but I do have a drill press. I also put a loop through the empty primer hole on an empty .45 cartridge, secured it inside, then pressed a bullet in. It looks good on a gold rope necklace.
Probably be popular with the gangsta rap crowd.

Posted by: RI Red at December 16, 2018 09:18 PM (vbpRb)

253 @ Jewells45.

Mentioned it before, but do your research and be careful.

NO "bullet" (or ANY cartridge component) to MA. Possession of such is an automatic ONE YEAR sentence there.

If you do make "bullet" jewelry, be sure your site has a NO SALES TO MASS. disclaimer right there in the listings.

And other states as might be identified via diligent research.

Jim
Sunk New Dawn
Galveston, TX

Posted by: Jim at December 16, 2018 09:19 PM (QzJWU)

254 247 I think my brain must be too old and worn out to handle this stuff. But good thread anyway.
Posted by: rickl at December 16, 2018 09:16 PM (sdi6R)
-------
Nah, man. You just need some time with the material!

Posted by: Weasel - Special Assistant to bluebell for NoVaMoMe 2019 at December 16, 2018 09:19 PM (MVjcR)

255 Posted by: RI Red at December 16, 2018 09:18 PM (vbpRb)

Great!! Thank you!! Just send it to my shop if you want.

Posted by: Jewells45 at December 16, 2018 09:20 PM (dUJdY)

256 And other states as might be identified via diligent research.

Wow.. thanks for the info.

Posted by: Jewells45 at December 16, 2018 09:21 PM (dUJdY)

257 y. I REALLY want to hold a little (free) clinic for some of you guys.
Posted by: Weasel - Special Assistant to bluebell for NoVaMoMe 2019 at December 16, 2018 09:04 PM

Hey! The free clinic shouldn't be just for guys!

Posted by: Sandra Fluke at December 16, 2018 09:22 PM (DMUuz)

258 Jim
Sunk New Dawn

Jim, did you get a chance to research/try the .22 ammo we talked about last week?

Posted by: Panhandler at December 16, 2018 09:22 PM (tsY/M)

259 Just so you know, I ain't putting no revolver up to my chin, I'm pulling the saddle blanket up to my chin. I is a pisspoor typist.

Posted by: Eromero at December 16, 2018 09:22 PM (zLDYs)

260 Not directly gun related but for the hunters in the group. I prefer smaller fixed blade belt knives, 3.5 to 4 inches. They also have uses for muzzleloaders as I mentioned above. Recently, Midwayusa had a sale with free delivery of such knives. I got a Boker Arbalito and a Buck model 102. Both came very sharp and have excellent leather sheaths. If you see another sale like that, check them out. Many of the reviews talk about how useful they are for field dressing game and edge retention. The Buck 102 got many mentions as a fish cleaning knife as well as for general use.

I don't hunt anymore but either one would be useful for a walk in the woods or camping.

Posted by: JTB at December 16, 2018 09:22 PM (bmdz3)

261 Milk jug challenge:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6I0IhY1XcPQ

It's actually a thing. Looks like a lot of fun.

Posted by: Blake - tis the season for grinching at December 16, 2018 09:24 PM (WEBkv)

262 ...Jim, did you get a chance to research/try the .22 ammo we talked about last week?

Posted by: Panhandler at December 16, 2018 09:22 PM (tsY/M)

I looked at the site, and like a dummy, failed to bookmark it. Can you kindly post it again?

I'm hoping to get some quality .22 time going after the first of the year.

Thanks!

Jim
Sunk New Dawn
Galveston, TX

Posted by: Jim at December 16, 2018 09:25 PM (QzJWU)

263 Nice, just got an update from Sportsman's Guide. Looks like my ammo will be here Thursday.

Posted by: Bert G at December 16, 2018 09:25 PM (OMsf+)

264
Weasel,
What "minimum" caliber/gun/sight combos would you want people to bring? I know the combos are infinite, so maybe it's easier to list what NOT to bring. Like no .223 AR-15's with barrels shorter than xx inches, as a possible example. Not asking for an answer tonight!

Posted by: Gref at December 16, 2018 09:17 PM (AMIL/)
-------
Any decent scoped rifle would work but it would be nice if they were target rifles - not necessarily expensive. A .308 would be ideal. I'd probably have at least one 308 for people to use, but I'm talking about really small groups. Maybe 5 or 6 in a class.

Posted by: Weasel - Special Assistant to bluebell for NoVaMoMe 2019 at December 16, 2018 09:25 PM (MVjcR)

265 Posted by: Jim at December 16, 2018 09:19 PM (QzJWU)
----
Great point Jim.

Posted by: Weasel - Special Assistant to bluebell for NoVaMoMe 2019 at December 16, 2018 09:26 PM (MVjcR)

266 I just saw I have a cool hash for a gun thread.

Posted by: An Observation at December 16, 2018 09:27 PM (6eek5)

267 Can you kindly post it again?
There are other suppliers but I use Champions Choice, they carry all the brands - let your wallet be your guide.

Posted by: Panhandler at December 16, 2018 09:27 PM (tsY/M)

268 Jim, there is something seriously wrong with Massachusetts, the birthplace of our independence. My son is fanatical about clearing out his range bag and car of all brass because he travels through Mass.
Luckily, I still have my unlimited LTC in Mass (a hundred bucks a year for the privilege), so I don't sweat it. But the mere fact of having empty brass landing you in jail for a year is nonsense.

Posted by: RI Red at December 16, 2018 09:28 PM (vbpRb)

269 Any decent scoped rifle would work but it would be nice if they were target rifles - not necessarily expensive. A .308 would be ideal. I'd probably have at least one 308 for people to use, but I'm talking about really small groups. Maybe 5 or 6 in a class.
Posted by: Weasel - Special Assistant to bluebell for NoVaMoMe 2019 at December 16, 2018 09:25 PM (MVjcR)
-----------------

How about a Howa 1500, Heavy Barrel, 243 Winchester topped with a Burris Veracity 3x15x50?

Posted by: Blake - tis the season for grinching at December 16, 2018 09:28 PM (WEBkv)

270
How about a Howa 1500, Heavy Barrel, 243 Winchester topped with a Burris Veracity 3x15x50?

Posted by: Blake - tis the season for grinching at December 16, 2018 09:28 PM (WEBkv)
------
Sounds like it'd work!

Posted by: Weasel - Special Assistant to bluebell for NoVaMoMe 2019 at December 16, 2018 09:29 PM (MVjcR)

271 Panhandler....thanks...bookmarked this time!

Jim
Sunk New Dawn
Galveston, TX

Posted by: Jim at December 16, 2018 09:31 PM (QzJWU)

272 Invite me sometime Weasel, I promise to bring the Lee Enfield No 4 T and an M1D with original M84 scope.

Posted by: Panhandler at December 16, 2018 09:31 PM (tsY/M)

273 Luckily, I still have my unlimited LTC in Mass (a hundred bucks a year for the privilege), so I don't sweat it. But the mere fact of having empty brass landing you in jail for a year is nonsense.
Posted by: RI Red at December 16, 2018 09:28 PM (vbpRb)

What do the Massholes do about all the fake bullet roach clips, cigarette lighters, and other gimmicks that you commonly see in gas stations and bodegas?

Posted by: Alberta Oil Peon at December 16, 2018 09:33 PM (fDU8w)

274 272 Invite me sometime Weasel, I promise to bring the Lee Enfield No 4 T and an M1D with original M84 scope.
Posted by: Panhandler at December 16, 2018 09:31 PM (tsY/M)
-----
If I ever manage to get my shit together, you all will be the first to know.

Posted by: Weasel - Special Assistant to bluebell for NoVaMoMe 2019 at December 16, 2018 09:33 PM (MVjcR)

275
Milk jug challenge:

Chug It!
Chug It!
Chug It!

Posted by: Bertram Cabot, Jr. at December 16, 2018 09:34 PM (aKsyK)

276 Any decent scoped rifle would work but it would be nice if they were target rifles - not necessarily expensive. A .308 would be ideal. I'd probably have at least one 308 for people to use, but I'm talking about really small groups. Maybe 5 or 6 in a class.

Posted by: Weasel - Special Assistant to bluebell for NoVaMoMe 2019 at December 16, 2018 09:25 PM (MVjcR)

Would an AR-10 with an 18-inch barrel be OK? I do have several Garands and an '03 Springfield, but mine are iron sights-only. Thanks, and thanks for this informative MOA/Mil thread.

Posted by: Gref at December 16, 2018 09:34 PM (AMIL/)

277 Blake, what's your max range for accuracy with that .243? I have a stock Rem 7400 semi-auto that is my go-to hog rifle and I'm trying to wring every foot out of it.

Posted by: RI Red at December 16, 2018 09:35 PM (vbpRb)

278 AOP, I've never seen that bling in Mass. Mandatory one year sentence for firearms violations.

Posted by: RI Red at December 16, 2018 09:37 PM (vbpRb)

279
Would an AR-10 with an 18-inch barrel be OK? I do have several Garands and an '03 Springfield, but mine are iron sights-only. Thanks, and thanks for this informative MOA/Mil thread.
Posted by: Gref at December 16, 2018 09:34 PM (AMIL/)
--------
Sure. That would work. We'd probably be shooting 400-500 yds to start. Or I could set you up with a loaner rifle.

Posted by: Weasel - Special Assistant to bluebell for NoVaMoMe 2019 at December 16, 2018 09:38 PM (MVjcR)

280 Posted by: Gref at December 16, 2018 09:34 PM (AMIL/)
---------
And thank you! You're very welcome. Glad you liked it!

Posted by: Weasel - Special Assistant to bluebell for NoVaMoMe 2019 at December 16, 2018 09:39 PM (MVjcR)

281 Great thread Weasel!!!

I'm used to mils because of my time with the Artillery. Nothing says love like a second round target hit with the battalion commander looking on.

Posted by: Diogenes at December 16, 2018 09:40 PM (0tfLf)

282 AOP, I've never seen that bling in Mass. Mandatory one year sentence for firearms violations.
Posted by: RI Red at December 16, 2018 09:37 PM (vbpRb)

But what if the item is not an actual bullet, or component of a real round? Say one were to make a roach clip patterned after a loaded round, but of a size and material such that it could not be chambered in any known firearm? Need to get somebody with deep pockets to sponsor a test case, and get the law thrown out.

Posted by: Alberta Oil Peon at December 16, 2018 09:42 PM (fDU8w)

283 Thank you Weasel. Got some practicing to do, for sure.

Posted by: NaCly Dog at December 16, 2018 09:43 PM (hyuyC)

284 281 Great thread Weasel!!!

I'm used to mils because of my time with the Artillery. Nothing says love like a second round target hit with the battalion commander looking on.
Posted by: Diogenes at December 16, 2018 09:40 PM (0tfLf)
---------
Thanks!!!
A first shot hit is always fun, but when you can put the second round on top of the first, you have your shit in one sock.

Posted by: Weasel - Special Assistant to bluebell for NoVaMoMe 2019 at December 16, 2018 09:44 PM (MVjcR)

285 Have a great night everyone.

May you be cold and flu free and with sweet dreams.

"All the major parties, along with most of their media friends, are regarded by much of the electorate as members of an insular, mutually affirming coterie who regard any outside voice as risible or dangerous." from Janet Daley Telegraph 24 May 2014

Posted by: NaCly Dog at December 16, 2018 09:45 PM (hyuyC)

286 RI Red, are you saying the if they see my NRA "308" key chain I'm in for a bad day?

Posted by: Panhandler at December 16, 2018 09:45 PM (tsY/M)

287 'Night Salty!

Posted by: Weasel - Special Assistant to bluebell for NoVaMoMe 2019 at December 16, 2018 09:45 PM (MVjcR)

288 @ Hikaru.

This ain't gonna make you into a Scout Sniper.

But I'll tell you what it WILL do.

Properly mounted, set-up and zeroed, this system will make you a quite effective shooter out to say, 600 yards or so.

Very short learning curve, and most importantly, damn near no math.

Read all the stuff on their site. You'll very quickly and intuitively "realize" that you can use this scope, and be pretty damn good with it, right from the start.

https://tinyurl.com/y8udjpgz

Jim
Sunk New Dawn
Galveston, TX

Posted by: Jim at December 16, 2018 09:45 PM (QzJWU)

289 MA is all over the block with firearms decisions. Recent landmark case saying that aliens couldn't be denied right to firearms. At the same time the bureaucracy is ignoring at least 7 district court orders to restore firearms rights to people with old misdemeanors.
Not a state I'd want to be the defendant in.

Posted by: RI Red at December 16, 2018 09:46 PM (vbpRb)

290 Christmas '60 I got a K+E
"Log Log Duplex DesiTrig. Cost 25 cartons of cigs! Very expensive. Best slide rule ever made. Practically useless by '67 TI had Silicon ship calculators that were always more accurate than 3 digits! and even Jeb Bush could use one!

Posted by: an ol exJarhead at December 16, 2018 09:49 PM (m9J1b)

291 283 Thank you Weasel. Got some practicing to do, for sure.
Posted by: NaCly Dog at December 16, 2018 09:43 PM (hyuyC)
------
Anytime, amigo. Thanks for the kind words, but it's you all that make this fun. I mean it.

Posted by: Weasel - Special Assistant to bluebell for NoVaMoMe 2019 at December 16, 2018 09:50 PM (xV9FI)

292 hiya

Posted by: ALH at December 16, 2018 09:50 PM (cS3Yq)

293 ...RI Red, are you saying the if they see my NRA "308" key chain I'm in for a bad day?

Posted by: Panhandler at December 16, 2018 09:45 PM (tsY/M)

MA. Empty, spent .22 LR brass mounted as earrings = 1 year mandatory sentence.

Same for any projectile fashioned into a piece of jewelry.

Frankly, I'd be scared to take into MA, a Weatherby Cartridge Display, wish is their lineup of cartridges (in inert form) cast into a Lucite block with the Weatherby logo thereon.

Bad thing there, the average Masshole cop would just LOVE to put you in jail for that keyring.

Jim
Sunk New Dawn
Galveston, TX

Posted by: Jim at December 16, 2018 09:50 PM (QzJWU)

294

MA. Empty, spent .22 LR brass mounted as earrings = 1 year mandatory sentence.

Same for any projectile fashioned into a piece of jewelry.
-----
Good grief.

Posted by: Weasel - Special Assistant to bluebell for NoVaMoMe 2019 at December 16, 2018 09:51 PM (MVjcR)

295 From my Prairie Dog shooting days in the 90's, we used to use 'minute of dog' rather than MOA. Most Prairie Dogs wouldn't pop up closer than a 100 yds, and visually, 400 yds was the limit. Before the trip, we'd go for a 200 yd zero on our firearms.
We would shoot in teams, one shooting and one spotting. Shooter would spot a dog (i.e. 2 body widths left of dark rock, 3 body heights up.) Spotter would confirm, then shooter would take the shot.
Spotter would then locate the shot (under 175 yds, usually "blowed up real good") from the dog, such as 1/2 body length left, one body width low.)
Using Kentucky Windage for the second shot usually resulted in a "blowed up real good."
Personal best: Spent a couple days at a sight on the Rosebud Indian reservation in SD. On the way out we stopped and visited the family living a mile or so south of where we were shooting. They had a Prairie Dog town to the west of their house and invited us to 'have at it.'
The laser range finder put the dog town between 300 and 340 yds from where we were shooting. Using my T/C Contender pistol in .223 with a 14 inch barrel and topped with a Leupold Vari-X III 4.5-14 scope, I nailed 8 Prairie Dogs in the 45 minutes we were shooting there. Considering that they are only 3 to 5 inches high and 9 to 12 inches long, I'll take the small brag on this one.

Posted by: Fritzy at December 16, 2018 09:52 PM (VY+MJ)

296 294

MA. Empty, spent .22 LR brass mounted as earrings = 1 year mandatory sentence.

Same for any projectile fashioned into a piece of jewelry.
-----
Good grief.
Posted by: Weasel - Special Assistant to bluebell for NoVaMoMe 2019 at December 16, 2018 09:51 PM (MVjcR)

Good thing they've completely eliminated gun crimes in MA, huh?

Posted by: rickl at December 16, 2018 09:53 PM (sdi6R)

297
Good thing they've completely eliminated gun crimes in MA, huh?
Posted by: rickl at December 16, 2018 09:53 PM (sdi6R)
------
Yeah. No shit.

Posted by: Weasel - Special Assistant to bluebell for NoVaMoMe 2019 at December 16, 2018 09:54 PM (MVjcR)

298
The laser range finder put the dog town between 300 and 340 yds from where we were shooting.

When Hell comes to dog town.

Posted by: Bertram Cabot, Jr. at December 16, 2018 09:55 PM (aKsyK)

299 Posted by: Fritzy at December 16, 2018 09:52 PM (VY+MJ)
------
Nice shooting!

Posted by: Weasel - Special Assistant to bluebell for NoVaMoMe 2019 at December 16, 2018 09:55 PM (MVjcR)

300 Lessee, 1 MOA = 0.0185 Grad

Okay, so holding it to 18 milliGrads at 100 yds. is good. I feel better. For some reason.

'

Posted by: Mike Hammer, etc., etc. at December 16, 2018 09:57 PM (CDGwz)

301
the Willowing is about to commence...

Posted by: Soothsayer SLX Pro Series II Platinum Turbo at December 16, 2018 09:57 PM (EBsT+)

302 Well it's getting to be about that time. THANK YOU to all for stopping by and hanging out and making this interesting and fun!!!

Posted by: Weasel - Special Assistant to bluebell for NoVaMoMe 2019 at December 16, 2018 09:58 PM (MVjcR)

303 I REALLY want to hold a little (free) clinic for some of you guys.

Posted by: Weasel - Special Assistant to bluebell for NoVaMoMe 2019 at December 16, 2018 09:04 PM (MVjcR)

After hanging out here for a while and reading the comments, I'm confident that many here are very familiar with free clinics.

Posted by: LeftCoast Dawg at December 16, 2018 09:58 PM (UsCnO)

304 Jewell45
7mm Mag, 6.5mm. makes nice slender sexy girly bullet pendants.
Michelle Malkin actually wore a 50 cal Browning Machine Gun necklace on Hannity one night. It was beautiful.

Posted by: DBCooper at December 16, 2018 09:58 PM (bttOm)

305 Before this thread dies, what is a BZO "Battle Sight Zero" and how does that relate to either a MOA or MIL scope?

Lets say that the rifle is military 5.56 or 7.62

Posted by: Blue Bird of F'ing Joy at December 16, 2018 08:41 PM (lD3vL)

---
from distant memory, you zero the rifle to a known, common distance, 100 or 200 meters/yards.

then, everything you might actually engage, at 0 to say 300 meters/yards can be engaged, just by holding center mass, assuming, of course that it's a full size target. the shot placement will fall or rise a tad, depending on range, but you'll place rounds in the torso, which is the name of the game.

experts will either have already weighed in, or correct me shortly, as necessary.

Posted by: redc1c4 at December 16, 2018 09:59 PM (zJ7J0)

306
After hanging out here for a while and reading the comments, I'm confident that many here are very familiar with free clinics.

Posted by: LeftCoast Dawg at December 16, 2018 09:58 PM (UsCnO)
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Probably so!

Posted by: Weasel - Special Assistant to bluebell for NoVaMoMe 2019 at December 16, 2018 09:59 PM (MVjcR)

307 High power gun, high power scope, spotter... big whoop. Come on into town unarmed and alone and see what happens mister big shot.

Posted by: Prairie Dog at December 16, 2018 09:59 PM (jGvbj)

308 Last Prarie Dog town I went through, there were WANTED posters with Fritzy's pic, posted on every mound.

I'd be careful even visiting a Buc-ee's at this point, amigo!

Jim
Sunk New Dawn
Galveston, TX

p.s. that's some damn fine shooting!

Posted by: Jim at December 16, 2018 09:59 PM (QzJWU)

309 New England is schizophrenic re guns. VT and NH are constitutional carry, with ME about to do the same. MA and CT are "may issue, but good luck" and RI is "shall issue", but some police chiefs refuse.
Worst thing is you can't get out on the ground without going through NY, where the State Troopers think federal law compliance on weapons transport is optional.

Posted by: RI Red at December 16, 2018 10:00 PM (vbpRb)

310 Very interesting thread.

Posted by: Braenyard at December 16, 2018 10:04 PM (rxtQa)

311 Nood ONT

Posted by: DR.WTF at December 16, 2018 10:04 PM (T71PA)

312 If I recall correctly, battle zero for M16/M4 is 25 m, which gives you zero at 25 and 300 m. Slight rise in between.

Posted by: RI Red at December 16, 2018 10:04 PM (XYXcc)

313
310 Very interesting thread.
Posted by: Braenyard at December 16, 2018 10:04 PM (rxtQa)
------
Thanks, and glad you liked it.

OK. That's it for this week. Thanks again for participating everyone! Good night!!!

Posted by: Weasel - Special Assistant to bluebell for NoVaMoMe 2019 at December 16, 2018 10:07 PM (MVjcR)

314 Hey Prairie Dog - I'll leave the guns at home and just bring my 5 Iron Be-yocht!

Jim - Thanks for the update. I'll spend some extra time at the reloading bench before my next trip.

Posted by: Fritzy at December 16, 2018 11:20 PM (VY+MJ)

315

277 Blake, what's your max range for accuracy with that .243? I have a stock Rem 7400 semi-auto that is my go-to hog rifle and I'm trying to wring every foot out of it.
Posted by: RI Red at December 16, 2018 09:35 PM (vbpRb)
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Had to step away for a while.

My rifle should be capable of MOA accuracy out to 1,000 yards.

Should be.

But, it requires that I put in the appropriate trigger time, develop some loads and make a modification to the scope mount. (should be shimmed because the scope itself probably isn't capable of the adjustments needed)

Also, I probably need to restock the rifle.

Posted by: Blake - tis the season for grinching at December 16, 2018 11:28 PM (WEBkv)

316 OK. That's it for this week. Thanks again for participating everyone! Good night!!!
Posted by: Weasel - Special Assistant to bluebell for NoVaMoMe 2019 at December 16, 2018 10:07 PM (MVjcR)
--------------

Night weasel, great thread, as usual!

Posted by: Blake - tis the season for grinching at December 16, 2018 11:28 PM (WEBkv)

317 Use Chuck Hawks's point blank range table to establish a "battle sight zero" for your rifle that will put rounds in the kill zone with a center-mass hold out to 300 yards. https://www.chuckhawks.com/rifle_trajectory_table.htm

Posted by: Bill Befort at December 17, 2018 12:30 AM (hJFOo)

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