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European Radicalism Has Come To Polite Society In America

Radicalism in America is not new, and like much of Europe it seems to be most popular amongst the well-off and the academy, who seemingly have too much time on their hands and not enough dirt underneath their fingernails. But they pretty much kept it to themselves, in particular the academics, who rarely entered polite society (people who work for a living) and were content to pontificate at faculty soirées and write scholarly articles that were read only by their peers.

For most of our history Americans have been reflexively dismissive of class structure, enjoying egalitarianism and its result, a vibrant and successful society. There is nothing quite so American about a rags-to-riches story, and it has been the reality here far more than in any other country on earth.

But class-structure and radicalism is emerging from the shadows and is becoming acceptable. That college students are unaware of the evils of socialism and consider it just another political and social structure is evidence enough that we have a difficult time ahead.

Here is a Swedish woman writing about her conversion. What struck me about her story is not the vile anti-Americanism of her peers -- that is to be expected in European society -- but that there are hints of the same attitudes here in America.

How 9/11 Made a European Upper-Middle-Class Radical a Conservative

Night fell and morning broke before I managed to get off that floor to answer my phone. On the other end I heard my boyfriend’s voice, chanting frantically:

Two more towers! Two more towers! Two more towers!

He and his friends were having a party, celebrating the attack on America. He called to invite me, and to this day I have never felt such intense shame.

Posted by: CBD at 12:15 PM




Comments

(Jump to bottom of comments)

1 First!

Posted by: Surfperch at September 16, 2018 12:17 PM (hVHEm)

2
All right! I may have the last Book Thread comment!

Posted by: Hadrian the Seventh at September 16, 2018 12:19 PM (LsBY9)

3 On the other end I heard my boyfriend's voice, chanting frantically:
Two more towers! Two more towers! Two more towers!



The soiboyfriend needs a nice beat down. Commie shit

Posted by: TheQuietMan at September 16, 2018 12:20 PM (SiINZ)

4 There is a cross over of politics of the Atlanic,I have figured this out over time, It just takes awhile.

Posted by: Skip at September 16, 2018 12:20 PM (T4oHT)

5 Top five and dime

Posted by: Traveling Man &&&& at September 16, 2018 12:21 PM (JVddv)

6 There will be book thread comments 10pm tonight.

Posted by: Skip at September 16, 2018 12:21 PM (T4oHT)

7
Who celebrated 9/11? European intellectualoids and Palestinians, two species of filth.

Posted by: Hadrian the Seventh at September 16, 2018 12:22 PM (LsBY9)

8 For most of our history Americans have been reflexively dismissive of
class structure, enjoying egalitarianism and its result, a vibrant and
successful society.



Europe has always had a class society in which it was broken up into the serfs, the merchant middle class, and the royalty. But the US has had its own unique class society as well. The class of wealth. And those so-called rags to riches stories we like to read about are in truth extremely rare. And are becoming even rarer with the advent of the "regulatory society" that has advanced in the 20th century.

Posted by: Vic We Have No Party at September 16, 2018 12:24 PM (mpXpK)

9 Better to enjoy the fortune Cookie Than Si how it is made,
Some call it a gulag others re-education camp.

Posted by: Better Made Chips at September 16, 2018 12:27 PM (WQxgw)

10 I remember my wife calling me at work on 9/11. At the time, I thought it odd because she never calls me at work. And this was right after the first plane hit and before it was ascertained as a terrorist attack.

In our 23 years together, she has only called me at work three times.

Posted by: Traveling Man &&&& at September 16, 2018 12:28 PM (JVddv)

11 Sweden pats itself on the back for all of its neutrality when in fact during World War II it sold vital minerals to Nazi Germany.

Posted by: Anna Puma (HQCaR) at September 16, 2018 12:28 PM (xYiAv)

12 I remember my wife calling me at work on 9/11. At the time, I thought it odd because she never calls me at work. And this was right after the first plane hit and before it was ascertained as a terrorist attack.

In our 23 years together, she has only called me at work three times.
Posted by: Traveling Man &&&& at September 16, 2018 12:28 PM (JVddv)

What were the other two times?

Posted by: Surfperch at September 16, 2018 12:29 PM (hVHEm)

13 I found a better link to the webcast of the Indian rocket launch:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Petx-I5VnwE

Liftoff is scheduled for 12:38 pm EDT.

Posted by: rickl at September 16, 2018 12:30 PM (sdi6R)

14 Sweden pats itself on the back for all of its neutrality when in fact during World War II it sold vital minerals to Nazi Germany.
Posted by: Anna Puma (HQCaR) at September 16, 2018 12:28 PM (xYiAv)


Wasn't Steinbeck's novel, "The Moon Is Down" about WWII Sweden...or was it Norway? It's been so long since I read it, I can't recall

Posted by: Traveling Man &&&& at September 16, 2018 12:31 PM (JVddv)

15 What struck me about her story is not the vile anti-Americanism of her peers -- that is to be expected in European society -- but that there are hints of the same attitudes here in America.



Anti-Americanism is being taught every day in schools. The left wants to turn out generation after generation of little Commissar Hoggs

Posted by: TheQuietMan at September 16, 2018 12:32 PM (SiINZ)

16
What were the other two times?

Posted by: Surfperch


To buy 7 years worth of eggs on the way home.

Posted by: Hadrian the Seventh at September 16, 2018 12:33 PM (LsBY9)

17 What were the other two times?
Posted by: Surfperch at September 16, 2018 12:29 PM (hVHEm)


When my first wife called and cussed her out because my oldest daughter had got a tattoo during her summer visit when she was 16. And the other time was when our granddaughter was in a car wreck.

I'm on the road all the time and call her every night, so it has to be very important if she calls me in the middle of the day.

Posted by: Traveling Man &&&& at September 16, 2018 12:36 PM (JVddv)

18 The PSLV is an odd rocket. Solid first stage, liquid second stage, solid third stage, and liquid fourth stage.

T-1:30.

Posted by: rickl at September 16, 2018 12:37 PM (sdi6R)

19 The funniest thing is between America, Sweden and Islam - America will get the last laugh.

Posted by: Skip at September 16, 2018 12:37 PM (T4oHT)

20 Sweden pats itself on the back for all of its
neutrality when in fact during World War II it sold vital minerals to
Nazi Germany.





Posted by: Anna Puma (HQCaR) at September 16, 2018 12:28 PM

---

Iron Ore mostly, literally millions of tons of it every year starting in 1938.

Posted by: The Great White Scotsman at September 16, 2018 12:37 PM (JUOKG)

21 We've always had a class society, but we just don't give it official names like the European aristocracy does. We covered it nicely with the curtain of 'equality' or 'equal opportunity' or some such crap, but it has always been there.

It is just that now the curtains are being pulled back a bit to reveal the ugly truth, and in some cases, the curtains are being completely ripped from the rod.

Thank President Trump for that, as he is the chief curtain puller.

Posted by: squeakywheel at September 16, 2018 12:38 PM (l6ZkO)

22 "there are hints of the same attitudes here in America."
-----------------------
Hints?!?

Posted by: Margarita DeVille at September 16, 2018 12:39 PM (0jtPF)

23 To buy 7 years worth of eggs on the way home.
Posted by: Hadrian the Seventh at September 16, 2018 12:33 PM (LsBY9)


My wife being a prepper, it would be to pick up 10 cases of canned vegetables on the way home and be mindful of the expiration dates.

Posted by: Traveling Man &&&& at September 16, 2018 12:39 PM (JVddv)

24

OK Hordelings, I gotta go take care of B'Gal for a bit.

Y'all try to behave.

Posted by: BackwardsBoy at September 16, 2018 12:40 PM (HaL55)

25
The funniest thing is between America, Sweden and Islam - America will get the last laugh.
Posted by: Skip


With a Mexican accent.

Posted by: Bertram Cabot, Jr. at September 16, 2018 12:40 PM (IqV8l)

26 I first encountered anti-Americanism from my own family in Italy. Back then it was mainly the young dipshits spewing that garbage. I also thought it was rude to attack your guest's country, unprovoked, family or not. These days I think the Italians are shifting rightward.

Posted by: kallisto at September 16, 2018 12:41 PM (tcamx)

27 Weird - the more powerful government gets in the United States, the less social mobility there is.

Also, not to be missed is the increasing importance of elite universities - fifty years ago, foreign observers noted that Ohio State graduates were as likely to be corporate CEOs and Congressman as Harvard graduates. To put it mildly, that is no longer true.

The admissions departments of elite universities now largely determine who gets to be in the ruling class - conservatives and people from rural areas need not apply.

Posted by: The ARC of History at September 16, 2018 12:41 PM (I2/tG)

28 The biggest difference here is that if you are willing to get an education which is largely free and then work hard you can advance in our economic classes. Maybe not to the "rich" class but at least up into the upper middle class where you can be "comfortable" if do not live in NYC, SF or LA.

Posted by: Vic We Have No Party at September 16, 2018 12:41 PM (mpXpK)

29 Sweden pats itself on the back for all of its neutrality when in fact during World War II it sold vital minerals to Nazi Germany.

And sold guns to both sides, and let German troops cross Sweden to invade Norway.

But they're a moral superpower, don't forget.

Posted by: The ARC of History at September 16, 2018 12:43 PM (I2/tG)

30 They're on the third stage now. Performance nominal.

Posted by: rickl at September 16, 2018 12:44 PM (sdi6R)

31 19 The funniest thing is between America, Sweden and Islam - America will get the last laugh.
Posted by: Skip at September 16, 2018 12:37 PM (T4oHT)

---

I would not be too sure of that.

Infanticide on demand, selling the baby parts, and other obscenities...

Posted by: SMH at September 16, 2018 12:46 PM (xhFdV)

32 I have heard that Swedish ball bearings were an important contribution to the German war effort. I have also read that they weren't.

Posted by: Jinx the Cat at September 16, 2018 12:46 PM (eFRS+)

33 21. oh yeah. Alfred Barnes learned the hard way when he tried to share his impressionist art collection with the Phila. upper crust.

Posted by: kallisto at September 16, 2018 12:47 PM (tcamx)

34 PSLV, is that a Russian or Indian?

Posted by: Braenyard at September 16, 2018 12:47 PM (UGLi1)

35
I never had any aspiration in life to be anything other then solidly middle class. To be wealthy would require such an expenditure of the limited time in ones life it hardly seemed worth the effort.

Judea-Christian ethics:

Why, what benefit will it be to a man if he gains the whole world but forfeits his life?

Posted by: Forgot My Nic at September 16, 2018 12:48 PM (LOgQ4)

36 364 The Indian (dot, not feather) webcast is live. They're launching two British satellites at 12:27 pm ET.

=====
This puzzles me. I believe that the UK still gives India foreign aid even though India also gives out foreign aid, and has a space program to boot while Britain doesn't. Ah well, just goes to show that white liberal guilt is the most powerful and stupid force in the universe.

Posted by: Vlad the Impaler, whittling away like mad at September 16, 2018 12:49 PM (nK3if)

37 The Europeans will never forgive the Jews for Auschwitz, and they will never forgive the Americans for saving their asses in two world wars.

Otherwise, they are fervent believers in the doctrine that if they keep feeding the crocodile, the crocodile will eat them last.

Posted by: The ARC of History at September 16, 2018 12:49 PM (I2/tG)

38 The lady is writing this as she turns 38--I don't know if her conversion occurred after her dickwad boyfriend called chanting for "two more towers". But she has grown up a bit, and growing up will change your mind about a lot of things.

Posted by: Comanche Voter at September 16, 2018 12:49 PM (Sda6L)

39 Rotten Tomatoes used to have a forum, and a non-movie section. On Sep 12, 2001 there were a few posts about 9/11, and about four or five times as many posts about Israel oppressing Palestinians. That was an education for me about the depravity of some circles.

Posted by: BourbonChicken at September 16, 2018 12:50 PM (rnAwa)

40 Forfeits his soul.

Posted by: SMH at September 16, 2018 12:50 PM (xhFdV)

41 When the shooting civil war starts, the elite will not be so privlaged for long. Sure it will be rough on us deplorables but eventually the elites will come crashing down. I don't want civil war but I can see it coming.

Posted by: Usntakim profoundly deplorable at September 16, 2018 12:50 PM (0OmEj)

42 I linked this Pat Condell video last night. People who voted for Brexit are openly castigated by the intelligentsia and the media as ignorant racist xenophobes whose opinions should be discounted.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R9T4dGAxtO0

He doesn't make the comparison explicitly, but it's impossible for American Deplorables to miss the parallels. We're dealing with the same globalist elites, after all.

Posted by: rickl at September 16, 2018 12:51 PM (sdi6R)

43 OK Hordelings, I gotta go take care of B'Gal for a bit.

Y'all try to behave.
Posted by: BackwardsBoy


God be with you and your lady friend. I know these are trying times.

Posted by: Bozo Conservative....outlaw in America at September 16, 2018 12:52 PM (S6Pax)

44 Sweden has weird psychology. I read the Dragon Tattoo novels because they were good page turners, and the big theme is some Swedish need to exact brutal revenge on men "who hurt women"

But then they collectively ignore the atrocities perpetrated by Muslim refugees they've invited in.

Posted by: Ignoramus at September 16, 2018 12:52 PM (1UZdv)

45 He doesn't make the comparison explicitly, but it's impossible for American Deplorables to miss the parallels. We're dealing with the same globalist elites commie assholes, after all.

Posted by: rickl at September 16, 2018 12:51 PM (sdi6R)



FIFY

Posted by: TheQuietMan at September 16, 2018 12:52 PM (SiINZ)

46 The Europeans will never forgive the Jews for Auschwitz

I read that a few years ago. I had to read it three times before I understood that the sentence wasn't upside-down.

Posted by: BourbonChicken at September 16, 2018 12:52 PM (rnAwa)

47 What about the seemingly not-so-radical Left? These are the people who ACTUALLY have control over our societies. They seem more polite, but the same rictus grin lies beneath the mask of compassion... and the American Left harbors something darker, more sinister, more driven, and more capable than anything I've seen in the Euro Leftists I've met or seen on TV.

It's hard to describe, but there is just something more evil and harder edged in our own homegrown demon-spawn.

Posted by: Yudhishthira's Dice at September 16, 2018 12:54 PM (5aX2M)

48 Forfeits his soul.

Posted by: SMH at September 16, 2018 12:50 PM


Pick your translation from the 28 available...Some use 'life', most 'soul'.

https://biblehub.com/matthew/16-26.htm

Posted by: Forgot My Nic at September 16, 2018 12:54 PM (LOgQ4)

49 I have heard that Swedish ball bearings were an important contribution to the German war effort. I have also read that they weren't.
Posted by: Jinx the Cat at September 16, 2018 12:46 PM (eFRS+)

--------------------

Half of the German supply, one-third of Britain's.

Posted by: RioBravo at September 16, 2018 12:54 PM (iQKgg)

50 There are few places that hone anti-Americanism to such a fine point as the upper classes of the UK.

They hate what they perceive as the US and our boorishness and rudeness. And really, many of them have no freakin' clue about the country at all. They may have visited New York City, and Boston, and a few other places.
Disneyland or Disneyworld comes to mind.

My old French boss (from years ago) had visited large parts of the US. He had a pretty good perspective of the whole country. While he had the innate European disdain for America, he was actually very fair minded and there were a lot of things about America that he liked.

Posted by: Bozo Conservative....outlaw in America at September 16, 2018 12:55 PM (S6Pax)

51 Doesn't seem very enlightened or couth behavior , but what do I know? I never attended finishing school, therefore I don't know how to properly react to three thousand innocent lives being lost to murderous cowards.

Posted by: Concerned People's Front at September 16, 2018 12:56 PM (v1udk)

52 44. we're finding that same mindset here cf. Iowa dad whose young daughter was killed by Illegal Alien. His rationale was they have better food so totes OK if they rape/murder us.

Posted by: kallisto at September 16, 2018 12:57 PM (tcamx)

53 41 When the shooting civil war starts, the elite will not be so privlaged for long. Sure it will be rough on us deplorables but eventually the elites will come crashing down. I don't want civil war but I can see it coming.
Posted by: Usntakim profoundly deplorable at September 16, 2018 12:50 PM (0OmEj)

The elites will be targeted. They may think their money and hidey places will shield them, but no.

Posted by: clutch at September 16, 2018 12:57 PM (kiSdp)

54 After we lost 1000 airmen bombing the Schweinfurt ball bearing factories, Sweden started selling Hitler ball bearings.

Posted by: Richard McEnroe at September 16, 2018 12:57 PM (ABuva)

55 Satellite separation! Looks like a successful launch.

Posted by: rickl at September 16, 2018 12:58 PM (sdi6R)

56 The Europeans will never forgive the Jews for Auschwitz

I read that a few years ago. I had to read it three times before I understood that the sentence wasn't upside-down.
Posted by: BourbonChicken

It exposed the utter moral rot at the heart of much of modern European philosophy. There were a lot of Europeans that embraced Fascism as the alternative to Communism (Bolshevism).

In reality, they are opposite faces of the same coin.

Antifa has it's roots in the Soviet inspired Anti Fascist Action League, which was a Soviet front organization to install a Bolshevik communist government in post- WWI Germany.
It sort of worked but sort of failed, because it mobilized a reaction from what became the Brownshirts, and what later became the Nazi party.

Posted by: Bozo Conservative....outlaw in America at September 16, 2018 12:59 PM (S6Pax)

57 Now it's time for speeches. The Indians always have speeches after a launch.

Posted by: rickl at September 16, 2018 12:59 PM (sdi6R)

58 That better food claim is debatable. Iowa dad must have grown up eating cereal boxes.

Posted by: kallisto at September 16, 2018 01:00 PM (tcamx)

59 Now it's time for speeches. The Indians always have speeches after a launch.
Posted by: rickl

Let us all praise the mechanism of government that made this great national success possible!

Forward into the cosmos!

Posted by: Bozo Conservative....outlaw in America at September 16, 2018 01:00 PM (S6Pax)

60 57 Now it's time for speeches. The Indians always have speeches after a launch.
Posted by: rickl at September 16, 2018 12:59 PM (sdi6R)

They used every part of the rocket.

Posted by: Insomniac at September 16, 2018 01:02 PM (NWiLs)

61 It exposed the utter moral rot at the heart of much of modern European philosophy. There were a lot of Europeans that embraced Fascism as the alternative to Communism (Bolshevism).

---

Fascism and Communism as an alternative to Christianity and religion in general.


When you don't believe in God, you'll believe in anything.


/like "global warming."

Posted by: shibumi at September 16, 2018 01:02 PM (QKV7o)

62 Now it's time for speeches. The Indians always have speeches after a launch.
Posted by: rickl at September 16, 2018 12:59 PM (sdi6R


Will there be translations by smoke signals?

Posted by: Traveling Man &&&& at September 16, 2018 01:02 PM (JVddv)

63 In any case, this life is fleeting; whereas your soul will spend eternity somewhere.

Posted by: SMH at September 16, 2018 01:02 PM (xhFdV)

64 There has never been and never will be a "classless society." Not at any time. Not in any place. To rail against that, in and of itself, is to rail against gravity or the moon.

The big questions are (1) whether there is significant mobility, opportunity for advancement in class; (2) whether those who are not of the upper class have significant control over their own lives; (3) whether there is a firm commitment to the principle of equality under the law; and, most important (4) whether the ruling class has sound moral and intellectual values.

Everything really depends on #4.
Look around you --- Clock Boy, Nike, the Google video, the academy, the Lightbringer, the US Open.
This is our ruling class.





Posted by: Margarita DeVille at September 16, 2018 01:03 PM (0jtPF)

65 we're finding that same mindset here cf. Iowa dad whose young daughter was killed by Illegal Alien. His rationale was they have better food so totes OK if they rape/murder us.

Posted by: kallisto at September 16, 2018 12:57 PM (tcamx)



Daddy Tibbets is quite the lefty loon. He was more upset at people who were upset over the illegal killing his daughter than the actual killing

Posted by: TheQuietMan at September 16, 2018 01:04 PM (SiINZ)

66 The Indians always have speeches after a launch.
Posted by: rickl at September 16, 2018 12:59 PM (sdi6R)


What time is the song and dance scheduled for?

Posted by: hogmartin at September 16, 2018 01:04 PM (y87Qq)

67 53 The elites will be targeted. They may think their money and hidey places will shield them, but no.

Posted by: clutch at September 16, 2018 12:57 PM (kiSdp)

The rich elites will get in their yachts and leave the country.

Posted by: Vic We Have No Party at September 16, 2018 01:05 PM (mpXpK)

68 The Europeans were never our friends.

Outside of the Poles, to hell with them. A continent of scoundrels, parasites and deviants.

Posted by: Hairyback Guy at September 16, 2018 01:05 PM (EoRCO)

69 It exposed the utter moral rot at the heart of much of modern European philosophy. There were a lot of Europeans that embraced Fascism as the alternative to Communism (Bolshevism).

------

This. At the heart of the post-modernist filth that's taken over our cultures, was the desire of its key philosophers to absolve Europe (in general) and France (in particular) and themselves (in the most specific) of the guilt brought about by that moral rot, by claiming that there are no morals, everything is a social construct, and on and on, ad infinitum.

Posted by: Yudhishthira's Dice at September 16, 2018 01:05 PM (5aX2M)

70 yeah, rags to riches used to be a guy that worked through college and started some enterprise ... or maybe just worked very hard and built a nice business with 100 employees.

Now people that put $10K in Amazon or the right dotcom is worth millions, thanks to monetary easy money globalist policy.

And the missing $21T (from government budget analysis) mostly showed up in the pockets of the oligarchs, as America went in debt to fund them. And those oligarchs have been building China and their silk road, planning to do away with the messy American dominance and all its deplorables that demand sovereignty and individual liberty.
Yes, they like all that free money, and really don't want to have the middle class get all uppity about getting screwed. So many pensions and mutual funds are in the globalist conglomerates ... a return to Americanism will be ... interesting.

Posted by: illiniwek at September 16, 2018 01:06 PM (Cus5s)

71 There has never been and never will be a "classless society." Not at any time. Not in any place. To rail against that, in and of itself, is to rail against gravity or the moon.

Yes...just as The poor will always be with us, So will evil always exist in this world, until the great reckoning.

Posted by: Traveling Man &&&& at September 16, 2018 01:06 PM (JVddv)

72 The one time my country could side with the U.S. was when America was on its knees, but when it refused to stay down it quickly went back to the smug relativism of World War II, the icy efficiency of a country never having to fight for either ethics or its existence.

She left out that Sweden bought its safety by shamelessly collaborating with the Nazis.

And as for never having to fight for either ethics or its existence, that day is coming, Sweden. Oh yes.

Posted by: Deplorable Jay Guevara, now with an added spark of divinity at September 16, 2018 01:06 PM (YqDXo)

73 63. very true SMH. Allow me to send blessings your way re: reunion with ex. Your children must be so happy!

Posted by: kallisto at September 16, 2018 01:07 PM (tcamx)

74 There has never been and never will be a "classless society." Not at any time. Not in any place.

P.J. O'Rourke noted that Swedes boasted of their classless society, but also noted that certain Swedes had the nice houses and took trips to the United States, and other Swedes didn't.

Sort of like "socialist" Israel, before Begin reformed the Israeli economy.

Posted by: The ARC of History at September 16, 2018 01:07 PM (I2/tG)

75 11 Sweden pats itself on the back for all of its neutrality when in fact during World War II it sold vital minerals to Nazi Germany.
Posted by: Anna Puma (HQCaR) at September 16, 2018 12:28 PM (xYiAv)


Sorry, just saw this.

Shoulda read the thread first.

Posted by: Deplorable Jay Guevara, now with an added spark of divinity at September 16, 2018 01:08 PM (YqDXo)

76 After we lost 1000 airmen bombing the Schweinfurt ball bearing factories, Sweden started selling Hitler ball bearings.
Posted by: Richard McEnroe at September 16, 2018 12:57 PM (ABuva)

--------------------

Shortly after the '43 raids, US and British pressure lead to a reduction in bearing supply from Sweden to Germany shortly in 1944. The loss to Sweden was partially offset by increased US-UK bearing purchases and some compensation to Sweden for the damage caused to their plants at Schweinfurt! Sweden did increase the supply of bearing-making machinery to Germany allowing an increase in German bearing production in Swedish-owned plants.

Posted by: RioBravo at September 16, 2018 01:08 PM (iQKgg)

77

The rich elites will get in their yachts and leave the country.
Posted by: Vic We Have No Party at September 16, 2018 01:05 PM (mpXpK)

Nope, at some point they will come back here like a moth to a flame because they want to rule this country, not MX or some other 3rd world s-hole. That is if they make it out in the first place.

Posted by: clutch at September 16, 2018 01:08 PM (kiSdp)

78 Thank you kallisto.

They are, though they think it's a miracle.

Posted by: SMH at September 16, 2018 01:10 PM (xhFdV)

79 There is a difference between wealth and class. Often hard for Americans to distinguish, because we did not traditionally have a hierarchical class-based society until recently, so the closest thing we had to it was "number of $$$ in the bank."

Now that we do have a class-based society, we'll become much more familiar with the distinction, and the attendant problems of classist hierarchies.

Posted by: Yudhishthira's Dice at September 16, 2018 01:11 PM (5aX2M)

80 Sweden is a lie! Europe is a lie! The reason Europe despises America is simple - the Elites loved Hitler (except for his final solution on Jews). Moreover, they hated America for its generosity, Marshall Plan, and for its military umbrella. Envy is a terrible disease and Europe has it in spades. I've always thought that countries like Sweden where a farce, since their defense for its beliefs and culture were non-existent, without the USA.

Posted by: BUTCH at September 16, 2018 01:12 PM (uywSX)

81 Rarely say or think this, but I think Margarita @64 has the definitive statement on the topic. Can't think of any addition or improvement.


Nature, and human nature, probably make some kind of sorting and stratification unavoidable, "natural".


It's the formal and informal structures and values that form the context that are crucial.

Posted by: rhomboid at September 16, 2018 01:13 PM (QDnY+)

82 The Swedes take pride in their pacifism. I was at a military reception, and a Swedish army officer offered up a toast to his regiment, which had not fought a battle in like, 250 years.

(I might have added, under my breath, "... or won one in 325..." but i can't confirm that)

Posted by: goatexchange at September 16, 2018 01:13 PM (YFnq5)

83 For most of our history Americans have been reflexively dismissive of

class structure, enjoying egalitarianism and its result, a vibrant and

successful society.

Europe has always had a class
society in which it was broken up into the serfs, the merchant middle
class, and the royalty. But the US has had its own unique class society
as well. The class of wealth. And those so-called rags to riches stories
we like to read about are in truth extremely rare. And are becoming
even rarer with the advent of the "regulatory society" that has advanced
in the 20th century.

I was reading an old NY times statistical analysis (yes you have to take it with a grain of salt) that measured class mobility between quartiles of income by generation. I think this was dated to the 70s or 80s. They found that about 2/3 of each quartile moved to one of the other quartiles between generations, implying a shocking amount of social mobility in America.

Whatever class was here in America, it wasn't an immutable caste system by any stretch of the imagination.

What the emerging class system *is becoming* is far more worrisome.

We seem to have a bizzare marriage of breathtaking elitist arrogance and communism. It's a logical eye-poke, but not necessarily historically uncharacteristic of those bastards.

Posted by: madrocketsci at September 16, 2018 01:13 PM (XKFf+)

84 For a laugh, Manspreading

https://tinyurl.com/gvyu77r

Posted by: Ignoramus at September 16, 2018 01:14 PM (1UZdv)

85 Now that we do have a class-based society, we'll become much more familiar with the distinction, and the attendant problems of classist hierarchies.
Posted by: Yudhishthira's Dice at September 16, 2018 01:11 PM (5aX2M)


That may be true in the heavily populated northeastern cities and on the west coast, but by and large, the rest of the country eschews elitism.

Posted by: Traveling Man &&&& at September 16, 2018 01:14 PM (JVddv)

86 Most Swedish manufactured exports during the 1940's were by firms directly or indirectly controlled by the Wallenberg banking family. For that reason representatives of the family, Raoul for example, were present in the fascist bloc during the war.

Posted by: RioBravo at September 16, 2018 01:15 PM (iQKgg)

87 There are few places that hone anti-Americanism to such a fine point as the upper classes of the UK.

They hate what they perceive as the US and our boorishness and rudeness. And really, many of them have no freakin' clue about the country at all. They may have visited New York City, and Boston, and a few other places.
Disneyland or Disneyworld comes to mind.


It's complicated. Labour supporters are definitely anti-American, although at one point many years ago (pre-WWII) they used to be pro-American, because of the relative egalitarianism here.

Tories supporters are much more sympathetic toward the US. Although they consider us boorish, unsophisticated, and uneducated, which in many cases is all too true, and are wistful that we have taken Britain's place as the pre-eminent power in the world, at the same time they look at us rather like a father who has been outshone by his son.

So, as I say, it's complicated.

Posted by: Deplorable Jay Guevara, now with an added spark of divinity at September 16, 2018 01:15 PM (YqDXo)

88 A friend who is biracial came back from Amsterdam astounded by their blackface Christmas icon, Black Peter. He had that idea about Yurp being so tolerant and progressive doncha know. I told him there is no more INtolerant place. They all hate each other, even though all Caucasian.

Posted by: kallisto at September 16, 2018 01:16 PM (tcamx)

89 RioBravo, all of this info re Swedish trade and production vis a vis Germany and the Allies is new and fascinating to me, and as a WWII geek/obsessive that's somewhat rare. Any titles or sources you could recommend that cover this subject?


There's one title on my 1,369-title long reading list concerning the industrial/economic aspects of Germany's post-WWI rise and subsequent devastation, can't recall the name. Perhaps it touches on this.

Posted by: rhomboid at September 16, 2018 01:17 PM (QDnY+)

90 Enough with the indiscriminate bashing of the UK and Europe, from whom our Founding culture derives!
No need to lend our voices to the chorus of Hey-hey-ho-ho-Western-civ-has-got-to-go.

The problem with the European ruling class, as with our own, is precisely the rejection of the Western tradition --- the rejection of Athens, Rome, and (above all) Jerusalem.





Posted by: Margarita DeVille at September 16, 2018 01:17 PM (0jtPF)

91 83 Whatever class was here in America, it wasn't an immutable caste system by any stretch of the imagination.

What the emerging class system *is becoming* is far more worrisome.

We
seem to have a bizzare marriage of breathtaking elitist arrogance and
communism. It's a logical eye-poke, but not necessarily historically
uncharacteristic of those bastards.



Posted by: madrocketsci at September 16, 2018 01:13 PM (XKFf+)

That may have been true before 1965, but there is a "class" now called the FSA who have entire generations born on welfare and never leave it. And we are currently letting in millions of foreigners who go immediately on welfare in which 50% of them never get off.

Posted by: Vic We Have No Party at September 16, 2018 01:17 PM (mpXpK)

92 That may be true in the heavily populated northeastern cities and on the west coast, but by and large, the rest of the country eschews elitism.
Posted by: Traveling Man &&&& at September 16, 2018 01:14 PM (JVddv)

We might eschew elitism, but the elitists want to chew us.

Posted by: Insomniac at September 16, 2018 01:18 PM (NWiLs)

93 78. I'm going to hold on to your story as proof that miracles do happen.

Posted by: kallisto at September 16, 2018 01:19 PM (tcamx)

94 That may be true in the heavily populated northeastern cities and on the west coast, but by and large, the rest of the country eschews elitism.
Posted by: Traveling Man &&&& at September 16, 2018 01:14 PM (JVddv)


It used to be true of California, too, but no longer. I was shocked when I lived in Boston at the attitudes there. "The Cabots talk only to the Lodges, who talk only to God," and people babbling about the "bluebloods of New England."

That sort of thing. I pointed out that the "bluebloods of New England" were largely the descendants of paupers, thieves, and whores in OLD England, or they'd still BE in England. This did not go down well.

They had an emphasis on "old money," and disdained the parvenu. In contrast, at that time, in California, I used to joke that you might be nobody in the morning, but if you found a suitcase full of cash, you were somebody that afternoon.

Posted by: Deplorable Jay Guevara, now with an added spark of divinity at September 16, 2018 01:19 PM (YqDXo)

95 PS: I was reading stuff on the internet (a mistake?) and came across some elitist rage-bait from the Ecole Polytechnique, about how they choose "the future elite of France".

Paraphrasing: "What we are looking for in the life story of our children is an unbroken string of effortless successes. These easy victories are the marker of a child who can measure up. Frankly, if you show any sign of struggle or effort at all, it means you don't have what it takes. Life is just not that hard."

(Could be why they get invaded bi-centennially by irate Germans.)

Posted by: madrocketsci at September 16, 2018 01:20 PM (XKFf+)

96 That may be true in the heavily populated northeastern cities and on the west coast, but by and large, the rest of the country eschews elitism.
Posted by: Traveling Man &&&& at September 16, 2018 01:14 PM (JVddv)

------

Absolutely. This is all pretty new to us. It's been creeping in for a century, but now the scale has tipped. These people have reached the stage of demanding total control over us lumpenproletariat. Representative rule, rule of law, individual freedom and social mobility be damned.

This is the birth of a modern version of the European class-tracked system. It hasn't reached us in flyover country, quite yet. But when it does, we'll suffer the most. They despise us. We're the sans-culottes.

Posted by: Yudhishthira's Dice at September 16, 2018 01:21 PM (5aX2M)

97 Enough with the indiscriminate bashing of the UK and Europe, from whom our Founding culture derives!
No need to lend our voices to the chorus of Hey-hey-ho-ho-Western-civ-has-got-to-go.


On more than occasion I was introduced in Britain and Europe as "an American, but one of the good ones."

If they only knew ...

Posted by: Deplorable Jay Guevara, now with an added spark of divinity at September 16, 2018 01:21 PM (YqDXo)

98 There always was a self-appointed elite in the US---guys like Washington, Jefferson and Hamilton were all elitists in their own way and to one degree or another. The bigger problem is that our elite today is totally without substance and moral principles. The usually work in the media so therefore it is their world outlook that is the perceived outlook of the country. Look at your local newspaper--especially if it is owned by Gannet/USA Today. It is a daily compendium of the elite's hobby horses and passions and tastes and dislikes. It is one long daily screed of Trump hatred and derangement from beginning to end.

Posted by: Roger Waters of Pink Floyd at September 16, 2018 01:22 PM (NFEMn)

99 madrocketscientist, the statistical studies of class mobility as measured by wealth and income have indeed long been striking in the US, esp. vs other countries. Haven't seen the latest, and doubt the figures have changed much, since much of the "mobility" was downward, reflecting human nature, and that hasn't changed (prosperous households begetting less prosperous ones, over time).


One particularly toxic aspect of today's elite wealth generation, vs. that of all previous periods - it is often sudden, gigantic, and does not involve decades of toil and failure (as for "tycoons" of previous eras). Take any of the "robber barons" (and that moniker is extremely dubious in many cases, from several angles) and compare their life/business stories to a Zuckerberg or any of the dozens of other tech tycoons who made billions before they turned 30.


Posted by: rhomboid at September 16, 2018 01:23 PM (QDnY+)

100 used to be true of California, too, but no longer

Yes, I remember those days. Left there in the summer of '75 and never looked back.

Posted by: Traveling Man &&&& at September 16, 2018 01:23 PM (JVddv)

101 98 There always was a self-appointed elite in the US---guys like Washington, Jefferson and Hamilton were all elitists in their own way and to one degree or another. The bigger problem is that our elite today is totally without substance and moral principles. The usually work in the media so therefore it is their world outlook that is the perceived outlook of the country. Look at your local newspaper--especially if it is owned by Gannet/USA Today. It is a daily compendium of the elite's hobby horses and passions and tastes and dislikes. It is one long daily screed of Trump hatred and derangement from beginning to end.
Posted by: Roger Waters of Pink Floyd at September 16, 2018 01:22 PM (NFEMn)


We used to have Washington, Jefferson, Hamilton, and Madison.

Now we have the Kardashians. /sobs

Posted by: Deplorable Jay Guevara, now with an added spark of divinity at September 16, 2018 01:23 PM (YqDXo)

102 Sweden's dominate early 20th century political party fostered biological-nationalist eugenics pograms, secretly allowed nazi troop movements into Norway and Finland, aided and abetted nazi Jew baiting and roundups. They persevered long after the nazi lost the war.

They recently erected monuments to Swedens versions of American radical liars like Rachael Carson and Planned Parenthood's Eli Sanger at Uppsala.

And in the first time in one hundred years that same party just lost its stranglehold on Sweden.

Posted by: 13times at September 16, 2018 01:23 PM (K3B2k)

103 IMO The Borg is a bigger problem than class.

The Borg is the unholy alliance of BigGov, Academia, Media and certain co-opted industries. It provides status and cushy jobs to its members, depending on where they sit in the hierarchy. And it overlaps with personal ties, sometimes familial, but increasingly with who's fucking who.

Posted by: Ignoramus at September 16, 2018 01:24 PM (1UZdv)

104 The problem with the European ruling class, as with our own, is precisely the rejection of the Western tradition --- the rejection of Athens, Rome, and (above all) Jerusalem.

And inbreeding. Don't forget the inbreeding.

Posted by: Insomniac at September 16, 2018 01:24 PM (NWiLs)

105 The strange thing is that there really aren't more people who hold to this radical ideology in America, they've just shifted from coffee shops and sitting around a bong to being in charge of newspapers, publishing, academia, and entertainment. They've taken over institutions and have a huge megaphone.

But they're also killing these institutions, which makes their impact of questionable value.

Posted by: Christopher R Taylor at September 16, 2018 01:25 PM (39g3+)

106 The current push is twofold:

1) convince businesses that their customers want them to go woke with BS statistics and studies
2) support these businesses with big time purchases, particularly of stock, to offset the sudden loss in sales and stock value that results.

If they can do this long enough, it will become assumed business culture that you go woke OR go broke.

Posted by: Christopher R Taylor at September 16, 2018 01:26 PM (39g3+)

107 Off Roger Waters of Pink Floyd sock......

Posted by: JoeF. at September 16, 2018 01:26 PM (NFEMn)

108 I think the ancient hereditary nobility has always hated and resented America for showing the world a different way. They aim to stamp us out once and for all.

I know that Mark Levin doesn't like the phrase, but the "middle class" is a creation of capitalism and the American system of government. It is a real thing. These are people who own homes and small businesses. They are independent-minded and have no need for rulers. They are the people who most support limited government.

"Socialism" is the biggest scam in world history. Far from creating a classless society, it aims to return to the old two-class system of feudalism.

Posted by: rickl at September 16, 2018 01:27 PM (sdi6R)

109 What the emerging class system *is becoming* is far more worrisome.

One of the most interesting interviews Obama ever gave was one where he explained that he loved Israel. Not today's Israel, of course, but Israel pre-Begin, where Israel was poor and socialist.

Under the old Israeli system, you had a ruling class, comprised of some of the European Jews, who explained how much they loved socialism and egalitarianism. They controlled the government and the economy, and had a decent standard of living, while the rest of Israel lived in grinding poverty.

Menachem Begin led a very Trump-style revolt against the ruling class, and removed most of the government control, and led to the rich, more egalitarian Israel we see today.

One suspects that Obama sees old-style socialist Israel as a model for how he wants America be to structured.

Posted by: The ARC of History at September 16, 2018 01:27 PM (I2/tG)

110 Everything really depends on #4.
Look around you --- Clock Boy, Nike, the Google video, the academy, the Lightbringer, the US Open.
This is our ruling class.





Posted by: Margarita DeVille at September 16, 2018 01:03 PM (0jtPF)



And when the ruling class shout that they are being 'oppressed' things are going to get interesting.

Posted by: Burnt Toast at September 16, 2018 01:28 PM (1g7ch)

111 79 There is a difference between wealth and class. Often hard for Americans to distinguish, because we did not traditionally have a hierarchical class-based society until recently...

***

I took a Communication Theory class taught by a professor who earned degrees from, among other places, the London School of Economics. She explained that men would approach her, ask her what time it was, and walk away before she finished reading her watch. Her accent gave away her class, long legs and pretty face notwithstanding. My male classmates had no words for her, since MILF had not been invented yet.

Her experiences were in the 70s. She commented that the classism and sexism in the US were so much less than in Europe, and her husband was still coaching her pronunciation when it was clear no American cared.

On the flip side, I have an uncle with a traditional Yooper way of speaking who was asked what country he was from by a Texas waitress with a heavy accent. She just loved his accent and he thought her directness was just plain charming. I think of it as the quintessential American story. We may find our countrymen quaint or even weird, but we like them, too.

Posted by: NaughtyPine at September 16, 2018 01:28 PM (/+bwe)

112 The big questions are (1) whether there is significant mobility, opportunity for advancement in class; (2) whether those who are not of the upper class have significant control over their own lives; (3) whether there is a firm commitment to the principle of equality under the law; and, most important (4) whether the ruling class has sound moral and intellectual values.

==========
To take your points in reverse order:
(4) dead
(3) Emo rats ( I entered Democrats but autocucumber has the right of it) killing it as fast as they can
(2) dying
(1) on life support

Aren't I little ray of sunshine today.

Posted by: Vlad the Impaler, whittling away like mad at September 16, 2018 01:29 PM (nK3if)

113 Hey Sweden...
Two more trainloads...
Two more trainloads...

Posted by: Diogenes at September 16, 2018 01:29 PM (0tfLf)

114
21. oh yeah. Alfred Barnes learned the hard way when he tried to share
his impressionist art collection with the Phila. upper crust.

Posted by: kallisto at September 16, 2018 12:47 PM (tcamx)

----------------------------

Just read up on this Barnes fellow. Kind of like the cut of his jib.

Posted by: Javems at September 16, 2018 01:29 PM (l8bpM)

115 One particularly toxic aspect of today's elite wealth generation, vs. that of all previous periods - it is often sudden, gigantic, and does not involve decades of toil and failure (as for "tycoons" of previous eras). Take any of the "robber barons" (and that moniker is extremely dubious in many cases, from several angles) and compare their life/business stories to a Zuckerberg or any of the dozens of other tech tycoons who made billions before they turned 30.

Posted by: rhomboid at September 16, 2018 01:23 PM (QDnY+)


One of the curious attitudes in Britain is the perspective toward wealth.

We admire the self-made man, and tolerate those who inherited wealth.

Brits, in my experience, are exactly the opposite. We consider economics to be a zero-sum game, so someone who became wealthy necessarily did so at the expense of others. In short, he's a piggy, who snarfed wealth that should have gone to others, whom he made poorer in the process.

Conversely (and perversely, IMO), they have no problem with those who inherited their wealth. After all, it's not their fault; they didn't do anything, they just happened to born into that family.

Consider this whenever you read, e.g., Richard Branson. He's attempting to buy respectability to offset the attitude above.

Visitors used to say Britain "is just like America." No, it isn't. Not at all.

Posted by: Deplorable Jay Guevara, now with an added spark of divinity at September 16, 2018 01:30 PM (YqDXo)

116 The problem with the European ruling class, as with our own, is precisely the rejection of the Western tradition --- the rejection of Athens, Rome, and (above all) Jerusalem.

And inbreeding. Don't forget the inbreeding.
Posted by: Insomniac at September 16, 2018 01:24 PM (NWiLs)

It IS inbreeding in a sense. Look up almost any high-profile member of the media you can think of and read their bios. The vast majority of them are related in some way to someone else in the media--even if it's only a producer or some name you never heard of. And many of them marry other members of the media. And they all started as interns and not real reporters.

Look at some of the NeverTrumper gang--almost all of them had parents who put them on the right path--Kristol, Goldberg, Podhoretz.


Yes our self-appointed elite are not really all that bright.

Posted by: JoeF. at September 16, 2018 01:31 PM (NFEMn)

117 If they can do this long enough, it will become assumed business culture that you go woke OR go broke.
Posted by: Christopher R Taylor at September 16, 2018 01:26 PM (39g3+)


So far, "Woke" business models haven't fared so we'll. But as you alluded to, if the richest PTB can sink enough money into them, it may become a moot point.

Posted by: Traveling Man &&&& at September 16, 2018 01:33 PM (JVddv)

118 98 .... The bigger problem is that our elite today is totally without substance and moral principles. .....
Posted by: Roger Waters of Pink Floyd at September 16, 2018 01:22 PM (NFEMn)
-----------------------
Bullseye.

Posted by: Margarita DeVille at September 16, 2018 01:33 PM (0jtPF)

119 57 Now it's time for speeches. The Indians always have speeches after a launch.
Posted by: rickl at September 16, 2018 12:59 PM (sdi6R)

They used every part of the rocket.
Posted by: Insomniac at September 16, 2018 01:02 PM (NWiLs)


You have won the thread sir.

There is no such thing as a classless society. Communism and socialism stratify more, not less. The closest thing to a classless society ever seen so far is Americans living with American values.

Posted by: BourbonChicken at September 16, 2018 01:34 PM (rnAwa)

120 Not sure if this was posted in another topic, but I hope everybody saw the story of Ari Fuld, an American-born Israeli activist and former IDF paratrooper and father of four, who was stabbed and killed by a 17 year old Palestinian terrorist. Before succumbing to his wounds, he got up, pursued the murderer, and shot him, neutralizing him and almost certainly saving more lives.

Ari has died. The terrorist, whose name I refuse to speak, will live due to the actions of Israeli doctors in an Israeli hospital. Because of their code, not just the code of the physician but the code of the Jewish people, they will save the life of this coward. He will return to his people and be hailed a hero.

Baruch Dayan Ha'Emet. Ari's heroism will shine in death a million times brighter than the blighted soul of his murderer.

Posted by: broseidon, semi-official komodo dragon shifter at September 16, 2018 01:34 PM (icI8A)

121 The vast majority of them are related in some way to someone else in the media

The media is high-status, pays well at the upper levels, and you have thousands of people fighting for these jobs with largely identical skill sets.

Of course nepotism enters into it - how do you think Ben Rhodes got his job with Obama?

Posted by: The ARC of History at September 16, 2018 01:35 PM (I2/tG)

122 RioBravo, all of this info re Swedish trade and production vis a vis Germany and the Allies is new and fascinating to me, and as a WWII geek/obsessive that's somewhat rare. Any titles or sources you could recommend that cover this subject?


There's one title on my 1,369-title long reading list concerning the industrial/economic aspects of Germany's post-WWI rise and subsequent devastation, can't recall the name. Perhaps it touches on this.
Posted by: rhomboid at September 16, 2018 01:17 PM (QDnY+)

----------------

Unfortunately in my experience things Swedish, at least in the English language, must be discovered in dribs and drabs.

A good overview of the Sweden and bearing supply in the war can be found in a paper by Eric Golson entitled "Did Swedish Ball Bearings Keep the Second World War Going? Re-evaluating Neutral Sweden's Role" which is available (or was) for free on the internet.

A good overview of the role of the Wallenberg family in Swedish industry can be found in the book "Science for Welfare and Warfare: Technology and State Initiative in Cold War Sweden" edited by Lundin, Stenlas, and Gribbe. Mostly chapters 1 and 3, I think.

Posted by: RioBravo at September 16, 2018 01:35 PM (iQKgg)

123 Does any of the Horde follow Q? Is so, what is your take on what Q has alluded to?

Posted by: Peace be Still at September 16, 2018 01:35 PM (LIhNq)

124 101 Now we have the Kardashians. /sobs

Posted by: Deplorable Jay Guevara, now with an added spark of divinity at September 16, 2018 01:23 PM (YqDXo)

The Kardashians made their wealth hawking a self-made porno film. 50 years ago they would be in jail and not be considered "socially elite".

Posted by: Vic We Have No Party at September 16, 2018 01:36 PM (mpXpK)

125 "I was shocked
when I lived in Boston at the attitudes there. "The Cabots talk only to
the Lodges, who talk only to God," and people babbling about the
"bluebloods of New England."


---

"Hold my beer."
- Charleston, SC

Posted by: Moron Robbie - Straight outta Wakanda, it's J-Tuff in da house! at September 16, 2018 01:36 PM (JTUFF)

126 114. In the end his big F.U. to the elites failed. The grandchildren of the same elites who shunned him bought off the inheritors of his now priceless art collection.

Posted by: kallisto at September 16, 2018 01:36 PM (tcamx)

127 not long after 9/11 i rather cynically concluded that bin laden made a mistake hitting the world trade center. had al qaeda hit the pentagon and the capitol, half of new york would have applauded.

Posted by: mjc, the very, at September 16, 2018 01:36 PM (Pg+x7)

128
The Euroweenies hate Americans because they know we're objectively better than they are, regardless of our many flaws.

Virtually every technical innovation they enjoy comes directly from the US, or is tweaked from US-developed theory or technology.

Virtually every part of their popular culture comes from the US or is developed from American cultural forms. The culture surrounding Soccer is probably the only exception (of course, it's low culture for the working class, so it's something of an embarrassment).

Their high culture like art, opera, classical music and such is genuinely European. Can't take credit for that. But it's virtually all just a rehash of earlier, pre WWI art forms, kept alive by reasons of the defense of the upper classes, and a desperate and failed attempt at asserting their superiority. Zombie High Culture.

Their socialistic welfare states only exist because of American military generosity in allowing the Europeans to spend minimal amounts on their own defense. And the Pax Americana they enjoy allowed them to avoid the wasteful tragedy of large-scale war among the European states for close to 80 years. Especially remarkable considering that their history was to slaughter each other about every 15-20 years or so.

They resent all of these things, they know that their station in life would be much worse without a benevolent America standing watch over them. Their culture would be stagnant and moribund without the infusion of American vitality, even the most crass and boorish versions of American Culture.

In an odd way, I don't blame them for hating America. We are everything that they are not, everything that they would wish for themselves, if they could.

Posted by: IllTemperedCur at September 16, 2018 01:37 PM (eXA4G)

129 A friend who is biracial came back from Amsterdam astounded by their blackface Christmas icon, Black Peter. He had that idea about Yurp being so tolerant and progressive doncha know. I told him there is no more INtolerant place. They all hate each other, even though all Caucasian.
=====

For some reason, I associate Black Pete with chimney sweeps and can't quite recall if Dutch Santa enters houses through chimneys or not.

Posted by: mustbequantum at September 16, 2018 01:37 PM (MIKMs)

130 CA, as in many past (happy, not depressing) cases, is something of a model and early adopter, when it comes to de-Americanizing social mobility and class-resistant trends.


Specifically the hollowing out of the middle class, and even more disastrously its partial replacement by a very different substitute - the public employee class. Due to "environmental" and other policies, and national ones that coincided, one engine of true middle class power (small manufacturing and business) has been crippled and reduced. Simultaneously, mass illegal migration has devastated another former middle class sector - the higher construction trades and similar skilled/semi-skilled labor areas.


While the welfare class (Vic's FSA) has exploded from a small sliver to an ocean of people and a part of the social structure (CA has 1/3 of national caseload, an astounding figure).


And unionized public employees literally run the state at the legislative level, to a degree that many would find hard to believe. The new "middle class" - yet one protected (for now) from unemployment, wage stagnation, or any other normal vicissitude of a free/real economy. And thus able to impose its increasingly toxic and idiotic ideas on the rest, with impunity.


And atop all this, wealthy whose source of wealth is the only area of economic activity not shunned, attacked, or otherwise burdened (tech, life science tech, fake green energy and tech, etc).


Result: a very stratified society, and an ugly/stupid one. Top: wealthy privileged (by govt. policy) elite, completely segregated from effects of their increasingly ridiculous preferences. Middle: mostly an artificial, over-paid, self-dealing public sector, willing/able to tax the real economy to death (even though that won't produce solvency for their outrageous compensation schemes). Bottom: vast, mostly multi-generational FSA, or illegals .

Posted by: rhomboid at September 16, 2018 01:38 PM (QDnY+)

131 Now it's time for speeches. The Indians always have speeches after a launch.
Posted by: rickl at September 16, 2018 12:59 PM (sdi6R

Speeches, and dancing, singing then feasting!

Bollywood Rocket launch celebrations.
Try the curry!

Posted by: Bharatiya Antariksha Anusandhana Sangathana at September 16, 2018 01:38 PM (VpTMN)

132 ... well, maybe not applauded - agreed they deserved it.

Posted by: mjc, the very, at September 16, 2018 01:38 PM (Pg+x7)

133 @117 Well...damn autocucumber.

Posted by: Traveling Man &&&& at September 16, 2018 01:39 PM (JVddv)

134 For some reason, I associate Black Pete with chimney sweeps and can't quite recall if Dutch Santa enters houses through chimneys or not.
Posted by: mustbequantum at September 16, 2018 01:37 PM (MIKMs)

I like Black Peter.

Posted by: SHEP! at September 16, 2018 01:40 PM (NFEMn)

135 97
Enough with the indiscriminate bashing of the UK and Europe, from whom our Founding culture derives!

No need to lend our voices to the chorus of Hey-hey-ho-ho-Western-civ-has-got-to-go.



On more than occasion I was introduced in Britain and Europe as "an American, but one of the good ones."



If they only knew ...

Posted by: Deplorable Jay Guevara, now with an added spark of divinity at September 16, 2018 01:21 PM (YqDXo)

--------------------------

I worked for a French company for numerous years. I was always described as the "charming" American. Having spent most of my life in sales, bullshitting the French was easy.

Posted by: Javems at September 16, 2018 01:40 PM (l8bpM)

136 ... really, if osama had only hit washington there would have been volumes written about how much america deserved it.

Posted by: mjc, the very, at September 16, 2018 01:41 PM (Pg+x7)

137 I was traveling and was in Ireland during 9/11 we had just gotten done with the Guinness tour we got on one of those hop on hop off bus tours and everybody was talking about some attack in Washington and NY, We even saw some newseller yelling EXTRA EXTRA Terrorists attack, which was serial like the old time movies, I have never seen that ever. We were on the upper deck and could hear people talking about something happening. We got off where we parked me and my wife were talking about how to leave Dublin and get back to our B and B when a an Irishman heard and said are you from the USA and have you heard, He told us everything and told us the Towers were gone I kept saying no they can't be over and over Hell we saw them when we left the US.

Our Hostess from the B and B was waiting for us out in front of her house and gave us a big hug and asked if we needed anything, We finally found a pub and I finally and I saw what had happened I think I might have screamed because everybody started to look at me and my wife felt very scared and said we have to find some where else to eat. I wanted to stay and watch but I just kinda followed her and we ate where they didn't have any TV. She was right to do that.

We were lucky to be in Ireland because every time people heard us they keep saying how sorry and some just hugged my wife. I was smart and I rented a cell phone for the trip because we were driving around I figured we needed in cause we broke down, My Dad finally got thru to us letting us know that everybody was save and it we were.

Ireland had a day of morning on a Friday, we signed a condolence book that was to be presented to the US ambassador, we waited in a long line at a Church and two extremely drunk guys saw that their was another book off to the right but not in front on the line off in the corner nook and they walked up signed it and hey did you people see this other book, it was so damn funny because everybody was just waiting their turn for either book and I think people needed that laugh


everything was closed so most pubs and restaurants were closed even the night clubs etc, we finally found a place to eat and it was packed with other Americans trying to figure out how to get back home because all flights were cancelled. We got really lucky and I had insisted on going to London as part of our trip so we could fly into London.

I hate to say this I felt safer in Ireland than in London.

Posted by: Patrick From Ohio at September 16, 2018 01:42 PM (6AWNk)

138 It's also been noted that to get a job with "new media" company like Buzzfeed, you have to 1) be willing to be paid very poorly, and 2) be willing to live in New York, San Francisco, or some other expensive city.

Amazingly, you get left-wing trust fund babies applying for these jobs - nobody else can afford to take them.

And places like the New York Times increasingly hire from places like Buzzfeed, so it's the route to a more "respectable" media job.

Helps explain the point of view of much of the media.

Posted by: The ARC of History at September 16, 2018 01:42 PM (I2/tG)

139 Seen on the Chive:

When I was a kid, I thought the Simpsons were lower-middle class. 30-something man with 4 bedroom house and a garage, 3 kids. Now I think they are loaded.

Posted by: BourbonChicken at September 16, 2018 01:42 PM (rnAwa)

140 The culture surrounding Soccer is probably the only exception (of course, it's low culture for the working class, so it's something of an embarrassment).

This.

I'm always amused by soccer moms here with duck feathers for brains who are enchanted by soccer ("It's European, you know. They're so sophisticated!") little knowing it's a working class diversion suffused with more than a little hooliganism. It's a cut above the WWE, but not two cuts above it.

Posted by: Deplorable Jay Guevara, now with an added spark of divinity at September 16, 2018 01:45 PM (YqDXo)

141 Rio Bravo, thanks. Will note and look for those sources.

Posted by: rhomboid at September 16, 2018 01:45 PM (QDnY+)

142 This anti-American problem can be easily solved.

Posted by: 3240 fps at September 16, 2018 01:46 PM (r9UYA)

143 Posted by: rhomboid at September 16, 2018 01:38 PM (QDnY+)

EXCELLENT summary, and right on point.

Posted by: Deplorable Jay Guevara, now with an added spark of divinity at September 16, 2018 01:47 PM (YqDXo)

144 Ireland mostly thinks well of the US. They're still critical of many US policies, and are sometimes right. They got a bit uppity when they thought they no longer needed US tourist dollars, but that's settled out.

Posted by: Ignoramus at September 16, 2018 01:47 PM (1UZdv)

145 So how much has changed in 200 years after DeToqueville?

Posted by: mustbequantum at September 16, 2018 01:47 PM (MIKMs)

146 Pretty much every MSM story on 911 had the same theme: "sad" "tragedy" "loss of life."
True so far as it goes, but what seems to be (quite deliberately) left out is: "attacked by vicious jihadis" and the righteous anger of an America that, for awhile, seemed a pretty universal feeling, and which resulted in many, thousands of patriotic American enlisting and getting some significant payback.

Of course our adventure in "nation building" proved to be flawed in concept, but treating an attack on our civilization, and the brave defense of our country that started with those on Flight 93, fireman and police in the Towers and which was continued by our soldiers halfway around the world as just part of some "tragedy" (like a flood, or volcano) is moral and historical imbecility.

Posted by: xnycpeasant at September 16, 2018 01:48 PM (Zm3Ne)

147 Amazingly, you get left-wing trust fund babies applying for these jobs - nobody else can afford to take them.

Posted by: The ARC of History at September 16, 2018 01:42 PM (I2/tG)


And those trust fund babies are astonishingly out of touch with reality.

Remember the chick at Yelp (IIRC) who wrote an open letter dumping on the CEO, and whining about how poor she was in SF? And she was amazed when she was fired within two hours?

/shakes head.

Posted by: Deplorable Jay Guevara, now with an added spark of divinity at September 16, 2018 01:49 PM (YqDXo)

148 Rhomboid, see me at 103.

California is advanced Borg.

Posted by: Ignoramus at September 16, 2018 01:50 PM (1UZdv)

149 134 For some reason, I associate Black Pete with chimney sweeps and can't quite recall if Dutch Santa enters houses through chimneys or not.
Posted by: mustbequantum at September 16, 2018 01:37 PM (MIKMs)

I like Black Peter.
Posted by: SHEP! at September 16, 2018 01:40 PM (NFEMn)

Common ground at last!

Posted by: Milo Yiannopoulos at September 16, 2018 01:51 PM (NWiLs)

150 I worked for a French company for numerous years. I was always described as the "charming" American. Having spent most of my life in sales, bullshitting the French was easy.
Posted by: Javems at September 16, 2018 01:40 PM (l8bpM)


I didn't bullshit them. I just kept my mouth shut, for the most part. Over the years I lived there I'm sure they gathered where I shook out politically.

Posted by: Deplorable Jay Guevara, now with an added spark of divinity at September 16, 2018 01:51 PM (YqDXo)

151 131 Now it's time for speeches. The Indians always have speeches after a launch.
Posted by: rickl at September 16, 2018 12:59 PM (sdi6R

Speeches, and dancing, singing then feasting!

Bollywood Rocket launch celebrations.
Try the curry!
Posted by: Bharatiya Antariksha Anusandhana Sangathana at September 16, 2018 01:38 PM (VpTMN)


What do you think they fuel the rocket with?

Posted by: Deplorable Jay Guevara, now with an added spark of divinity at September 16, 2018 01:52 PM (YqDXo)

152 "Amazingly, you get left-wing trust fund babies applying for these jobs - nobody else can afford to take them. "

They were the Mooks who worked for Hillary in Hipster Brooklyn. And they still can't fathom how they failed Her.

Posted by: Ignoramus at September 16, 2018 01:53 PM (1UZdv)

153 And unionized public employees literally run the state at the legislative level, to a degree that many would find hard to believe.

Prison guards in California make six figures, without overtime. The prison guard union is one of the most politically powerful organizations in the state.

Posted by: The ARC of History at September 16, 2018 01:53 PM (I2/tG)

154 I was in highschool during 9/11. We had the schoolwide newsy-sort of broadcast come on and depict the event. I remember saying something in math class that day to the effect: "We need to find out who is responsible and nuke their country from border to border into a boiling sea of glass! Terror? These savages have no idea what terror is!" mumble,mumble, something about archaeologists needing lead underwear to find their teeth enamel in the ashes.

Then I joined the Air Force. I never did get to rain atomic fire down on Saudi Arabia. Maybe that is for the best.


Posted by: madrocketsci at September 16, 2018 01:54 PM (XKFf+)

155 Pretty much every MSM story on 911 had the same theme: "sad" "tragedy" "loss of life."

The characterization of terrorist attacks as "tragedy" infuriates me.

It IS a tragedy for the families those affected, but for the nation as a whole it is more accurate characterized as "an outrage."

Posted by: Deplorable Jay Guevara, now with an added spark of divinity at September 16, 2018 01:54 PM (YqDXo)

156 Amazingly, you get left-wing trust fund babies applying for these jobs - nobody else can afford to take them.

Posted by: The ARC of History at September 16, 2018 01:42 PM (I2/tG)

And those trust fund babies are astonishingly out of touch with reality.
-------------------------------------------------------

And we wonder people believe in alternate realities? Because that's what's presented to them 24/7

Posted by: JoeF. at September 16, 2018 01:54 PM (NFEMn)

157 The rich elites will get in their yachts and leave the country.

Posted by: Vic We Have No Party at September 16, 2018 01:05 PM (mpXpK)

Fortunately, nuclear subs are faster than most yachts, and can reach out and touch at long distance.

Posted by: Alberta Oil Peon at September 16, 2018 01:54 PM (iwUO9)

158

I keep saying, the most exceptional country on the planet, populated by an extraordinary people, governed by an political process unique in the world.

And YOU, lucky people, get to live here.

Posted by: irongrampa at September 16, 2018 01:55 PM (S/hVx)

159 PS - the squishy left in class had a fainting spell and I was sent to the principal's office.

Posted by: madrocketsci at September 16, 2018 01:55 PM (XKFf+)

160 Prison guards in California make six figures, without overtime. The prison guard union is one of the most politically powerful organizations in the state.
Posted by: The ARC of History at September 16, 2018 01:53 PM (I2/tG)


Thanks, Gray Davis!

Posted by: Deplorable Jay Guevara, now with an added spark of divinity at September 16, 2018 01:55 PM (YqDXo)

161 OT/ but the Kavanaugh "victim" has come out with a lurid tale of attempted rape and has a MeToo lawyer... Doesn't look good... Fuck the Dems

Posted by: It's me donna at September 16, 2018 01:55 PM (O2RFr)

162 A big beneficiary of illegal immigration are unionized teachers, prison guards and healthcare workers.

Cradle to grave baby!

Posted by: Ignoramus at September 16, 2018 01:55 PM (1UZdv)

163 They were the Mooks who worked for Hillary in Hipster Brooklyn.

Always cracks me up to see some 25-year old "journalist" writing for obscure blogs who lives in Williamsburg, Brooklyn.

I'm sure they are getting no financial support from mommy and daddy in their journalistic endeavors.

Posted by: The ARC of History at September 16, 2018 01:55 PM (I2/tG)

164 it wasn't just Sweden profiting from the Nazis. Henry Ford sold them a lot of trucks, others sold them supplies right through the war. Supposedly Roosevelt was informed but rather than stop them, he let it continue. The "word" is that they were just too big a force to deal with. (the early DeepState?)

And theories suggest that Hitler himself was the result of those looking to profit from a war, but it is hard to dismantle it all to come up with one "unified theory"
"Love of Money is root of all evil" ... unites much of the theory of shadow people push war for profit. But money is now just fiat, floating paper currency, and even stocks or Bitcoin, or the quadrillion in the derivative/insurance shadowy realms.

Posted by: illiniwek at September 16, 2018 01:57 PM (Cus5s)

165 didn't bullshit them. I just kept my mouth shut, for the most part. Over the years I lived there I'm sure they gathered where I shook out politically.
Posted by: Deplorable Jay Guevara, now with an added spark of divinity at September 16, 2018 01:51 PM (YqDXo)


Way back in the day, late 70's, we used to have French training missions at our remote radar bomb scoring site every month. If you screwed up during the previous month, your punishment was to escort the Frog liason officers through the site during that month's mission. It was a tough punishment because the French pretended to have a hard time with English, even though they probably spoke it as well as us Americans.

Posted by: Traveling Man &&&& at September 16, 2018 01:58 PM (JVddv)

166 153 And unionized public employees literally run the state at the legislative level, to a degree that many would find hard to believe.

Prison guards in California make six figures, without overtime. The prison guard union is one of the most politically powerful organizations in the state.
Posted by: The ARC of History at September 16, 2018 01:53 PM (I2/tG)

Damn. Not that I would want to be a prison guard even at six figures, but damn.

Posted by: Insomniac at September 16, 2018 01:58 PM (NWiLs)

167 And those trust fund babies are astonishingly out of touch with reality.
-------------------------------------------------------

And we wonder people believe in alternate realities? Because that's what's presented to them 24/7
Posted by: JoeF. at September 16, 2018 01:54 PM (NFEMn)


That Yelp chick amazed me. What did she think was going to happen? That the CEO was going to offer her a raise?

Posted by: Deplorable Jay Guevara, now with an added spark of divinity at September 16, 2018 01:59 PM (YqDXo)

168 Does any of the Horde follow Q? Is so, what is your take on what Q has alluded to?

Posted by: Peace be Still


4chan theater.

Posted by: weft cut-loop at September 16, 2018 01:59 PM (c07y/)

169 nuke their country from border to border into a boiling sea of glass! Terror? These

We used to have a saying...Nuke 'em 'til they glow in the dark.

Another one was...Let's just turn their country into a glass topped parking lot.

Posted by: Traveling Man &&&& at September 16, 2018 02:01 PM (JVddv)

170 Then I joined the Air Force. I never did get to rain atomic fire down on Saudi Arabia. Maybe that is for the best.

Posted by: madrocketsci at September 16, 2018 01:54 PM (XKFf+)


Jury's still out on that one.

Posted by: Deplorable Jay Guevara, now with an added spark of divinity at September 16, 2018 02:01 PM (YqDXo)

171 There's one title on my 1,369-title long reading list concerning the industrial/economic aspects of Germany's post-WWI rise and subsequent devastation, can't recall the name. Perhaps it touches on this.
Posted by: rhomboid at September 16, 2018 01:17 PM (QDnY+)

---------------------

Alan Milwark's "War, Economy, and Society 1939-1945" is a commonly cited work and covers this area, including discussion of Sweden - particularly in chapters 9 and 10.

Posted by: RioBravo at September 16, 2018 02:02 PM (iQKgg)

172 "Prison guards in California make six figures, without overtime. The
prison guard union is one of the most politically powerful organizations
in the state.
" Posted by: The ARC of History


internal "war" is also profitable. They are importing prisoners as fast as they can. They'd love to lock up more deplorables ... too many bullets in the magazine, rifle with that thing that goes up, not hiring enough (or firing) "minorities" ...

Posted by: illiniwek at September 16, 2018 02:03 PM (Cus5s)

173 The characterization of terrorist attacks as "tragedy" infuriates me.

It IS a tragedy for the families those affected, but for the nation as a whole it is more accurate characterized as "an outrage."
Posted by: Deplorable Jay Guevara, now with an added spark of divinity at September 16, 2018 01:54 PM (YqDXo)

You gave me the opening to say something I've always believed--but which puts off MOST people I say it to...
We treat 9/11 as though the individuals in the Towers were the focus of the attack. Their names get read every 9/11 and are engraved-or will be--on every monument to that fateful day. But they were not important enough to the jihadis--they were not combatants or (except for the NYPD and FDNY) heroes. They were collateral damage.
Now, the deaths of these individuals WERE tragic and sad and absolutely devastating to their families in friends. Their deaths were the TRAGEDY of that day.

But 9/11 was an ACT OF WAR against the US and indeed all of the West. That was the message of that day--the message the terrorists wanted to send and the message that EVERYONE in this country should have received. That wasn't a Tragedy or a "sad event." It was an all out declaration of war. Had we ( the media , government, etc.) focused on that --instead of endless candlelight vigils --we would be in a better place today.

Posted by: JoeF. at September 16, 2018 02:04 PM (NFEMn)

174 169 nuke their country from border to border into a boiling sea of glass! Terror? These

We used to have a saying...Nuke 'em 'til they glow in the dark.

Another one was...Let's just turn their country into a glass topped parking lot.
Posted by: Traveling Man &&&& at September 16, 2018 02:01 PM (JVddv)

I like "nuke 'em until they glow, then shoot 'em in the dark." I've always had a special place in my heart for overkill.

Posted by: Insomniac at September 16, 2018 02:04 PM (NWiLs)

175 Case in point, about wealth and class being only tangentially related: many people in government and the media are substantially less monied than many in the private sector. If you're not in the "good" private sector (largely tech and media) no amount of money buys a seat at the table of power.

By the same token, the very poor welfare dependents have a social status that belies their poverty... they are a totemic victim for the rulers to use as a moral bludgeon against the ruled. They are fed, clothed and housed by the working masses. Without regard to demography in prisons, they are often given breaks by the justice system that no legal, working citizen would receive in a million years.

Meanwhile the working people, from the lower-income to the relatively wealthy, are actually at the bottom rung of American society. Essentially, serfs of the of the welfare state and it's lordly class.

In systems like this, money is nearly irrelevant. It's not coincidental that the rulers have more of it, but it is by no means a determining factor - Bob the millionaire widget manufacturer has a factually lower social status than the middle-income journalist or the illegal alien day laborer / night criminal.

Posted by: Yudhishthira's Dice at September 16, 2018 02:04 PM (5aX2M)

176 Always cracks me up to see some 25-year old "journalist" writing for obscure blogs who lives in Williamsburg, Brooklyn.

I'm sure they are getting no financial support from mommy and daddy in their journalistic endeavors.


I'll add that the journalist supports "socialism", because she thinks that government support will replace parental support, and that she will get to continue her kewl lifestyle in Brooklyn without having to pretend to be nice to her parents.

It hasn't occurred to her that a socialist government might not have much use for someone playing at being a journalist in one of the most expensive neighborhoods in the country.

Posted by: The ARC of History at September 16, 2018 02:04 PM (I2/tG)

177 I like "nuke 'em until they glow, then shoot 'em in the dark." I've always had a special place in my heart for overkill.
Posted by: Insomniac at September 16, 2018 02:04 PM (NWiLs)
---
My favorite is still "Nuke 'em till they glow, and use their asses for flashlights".

Posted by: All Hail Eris, Literate Savage at September 16, 2018 02:06 PM (kQs4Y)

178 Real socialists are those who can afford to be, and who can insulate themselves from it. The others who claim to be socialists are either ill-informed or stupid.

Posted by: San Franpsycho at September 16, 2018 02:07 PM (EZebt)

179 172 "Prison guards in California make six figures, without overtime. The
prison guard union is one of the most politically powerful organizations
in the state.
" Posted by: The ARC of History


internal "war" is also profitable. They are importing prisoners as fast as they can. They'd love to lock up more deplorables ... too many bullets in the magazine, rifle with that thing that goes up, not hiring enough (or firing) "minorities" ...
Posted by: illiniwek at September 16, 2018 02:03 PM (Cus5s)

See, e.g., the War on Drugs. A highly profitable enterprise for law enforcement and the prison system.

Posted by: Insomniac at September 16, 2018 02:07 PM (NWiLs)

180 The madness runs deep within our DNA. And forget tribalism. Only the positive aspects of our American culture can propel our species.

Posted by: Fritz at September 16, 2018 02:08 PM (Z9C5C)

181 My favorite is still "Nuke 'em till they glow, and use their asses for flashlights".

Posted by: All Hail Eris, Literate Savage at September 16, 2018 02:06 PM (kQs4Y)

That's a new one on me. I like it.

Posted by: Insomniac at September 16, 2018 02:08 PM (NWiLs)

182 I wish to God Trump had been president on 9/11.

Posted by: JoeF. at September 16, 2018 02:09 PM (NFEMn)

183 There was a supposed twitter exchanged where some stupid bint was celebrating socialism as shown in Cuba by the Castros.

Someone responded that he was offended because his parents were Cuban refugees

She asked if they owned property, and when he said "yes" she called the F*cking captialists and that they were butthurt since they couldn't own property there they decided to come to the US and be evil here instead.

I read Babalu blog and others having to do with South America and Caribbean and they make me shiver, and I am not likely to have my door kicked down and dragged off for having incorrect opinions.
Some fools hate to think and have let their betters think for them.

I know there was a drive by the abolitionists to explain to the clueless in general what the slave experience was -- the arbitrariness, the degradation and the powerlessness -- I wonder if there shouldn't be a new drive like this for the slaves of socialism.

Posted by: Kindltot at September 16, 2018 02:10 PM (2K6fY)

184 Ireland mostly thinks well of the US. They're still critical of many US policies, and are sometimes right. They got a bit uppity when they thought they no longer needed US tourist dollars, but that's settled out.
Posted by: Ignoramus at September 16, 2018 01:47 PM (1UZdv)

I watched some videos on Trump's election from Ireland and they were scared that Trump was going to lower Taxes to match Ireland and thus American companies would leave

Posted by: Patrick from Ohio at September 16, 2018 02:10 PM (dKiJG)

185 But 9/11 was an ACT OF WAR against the US and indeed all of the West. That was the message of that day--the message the terrorists wanted to send and the message that EVERYONE in this country should have received. That wasn't a Tragedy or a "sad event." It was an all out declaration of war. Had we ( the media , government, etc.) focused on that --instead of endless candlelight vigils --we would be in a better place today.
Posted by: JoeF. at September 16, 2018 02:04 PM (NFEMn)


My brother.

Posted by: Deplorable Jay Guevara, now with an added spark of divinity at September 16, 2018 02:10 PM (YqDXo)

186 Two more towers! Two more towers! Two more towers!
He and his friends were having a party, celebrating the attack on America.


Five years from now, when a goat-shagging, seventh century invader is hunting this Euro-trash down with a scimitar in his own neighborhood, I'm guessing he'll question why The Great Satan wasn't there to once again bail his sorry ass out. Never again, indeed.

Posted by: Notorious BFD at September 16, 2018 02:11 PM (Tyii7)

187 I wish to God Trump had been president on 9/11.
Posted by: JoeF. at September 16, 2018 02:09 PM (NFEMn)

-----------

Why? There was no Twitter then. /s

Posted by: RioBravo at September 16, 2018 02:12 PM (iQKgg)

188 Ireland mostly thinks well of the US. They're still critical of many US policies, and are sometimes right. They got a bit uppity when they thought they no longer needed US tourist dollars, but that's settled out.
Posted by: Ignoramus at September 16, 2018 01:47 PM (1UZdv)

I can easily see why they supported us on 9/11. Also it can't be lost that there are many Irish immigrants (legal and illegal) to NYC --and they were probably more evident in 2001 than now. This is in addition to the NYPD and FDNY essentially being Irish fraternal organizations....

Posted by: JoeF. at September 16, 2018 02:13 PM (NFEMn)

189 "Their culture would be stagnant and moribund without
the infusion of American vitality, even the most crass and boorish
versions of American Culture.

In an odd way, I don't blame them for hating America. We are
everything that they are not, everything that they would wish for
themselves, if they could" Posted by: IllTemperedCur

not to mention our boorish military saving them, and continuing to oversee their safety for decades.

I don't know Shakespeare, but have heard he was really addressing the commoners, and certainly his plays pointed out some of the flaws of the more "refined class".

Being silent in the face of totalitarianism is no virtue, regardless of how mild mannered or well spoken a facade one might portray.

Posted by: illiniwek at September 16, 2018 02:13 PM (Cus5s)

190 I'll add that the journalist supports "socialism", because she thinks that government support will replace parental support, and that she will get to continue her kewl lifestyle in Brooklyn without having to pretend to be nice to her parents.

Posted by: The ARC of History at September 16, 2018 02:04 PM (I2/tG)


As previously recounted, I have a liberal acquaintance whose daughter lives large with her "wife," traveling around the country to take in the protest du jour and then jetting off to Europe for R&R before returning to her tony beach front apartment.

Now there's NO WAY in hell she could possibly be supporting herself. No. Way. In. Hell.

Posted by: Deplorable Jay Guevara, now with an added spark of divinity at September 16, 2018 02:14 PM (YqDXo)

191 11 Sweden pats itself on the back for all of its neutrality when in fact during World War II it sold vital minerals to Nazi Germany.
Posted by: Anna Puma (HQCaR) at September 16, 2018 12:28 PM (xYiAv)

===

They were as "neutral" as the Swiss or the Irish. Meaning they tried to make as much money as possible while hoping the Germans won.

Posted by: San Franpsycho at September 16, 2018 02:14 PM (EZebt)

192
166 153 And unionized public employees literally run the state at the legislative level, to a degree that many would find hard to believe.

Prison guards in California make six figures, without overtime. The prison guard union is one of the most politically powerful organizations in the state.
Posted by: The ARC of History at September 16, 2018 01:53 PM (I2/tG)

Damn. Not that I would want to be a prison guard even at six figures, but damn.
Posted by: Insomniac at September 16, 2018 01:58 PM (NWiLs)






Yup. My dad retired as a CA corrections officer (after previously spending 28 years in the Navy). VERY lucrative job, if you could handle being around the worst scum in society.

When I left the Army back in '91 he tried to talk me into signing on. Seriously thought about it, because of the money. But the fact that Pop used to have to talk to Charles Manson every day for prisoner counts in the SHU made me shy away. And Pop knew Manson well enough that he could tell me that Charlie HATED being called "Chuck".... that was the anecdote that sealed the deal for me.

So now, coming up on 30 years later, I'm still living paycheck to paycheck, struggling a bit. But I have no regrets. The preservation of my soul is worth my less-than-affluent lifestyle.

Posted by: IllTemperedCur at September 16, 2018 02:14 PM (eXA4G)

193 They were as "neutral" as the Swiss or the Irish. Meaning they tried to make as much money as possible while hoping the Germans won.
Posted by: San Franpsycho at September 16, 2018 02:14 PM (EZebt)

Si, senor!

Posted by: Spain at September 16, 2018 02:15 PM (NFEMn)

194 Our betters ain't.

Posted by: Grump928(C) at September 16, 2018 02:16 PM (yQpMk)

195 145 So how much has changed in 200 years after DeToqueville?
Posted by: mustbequantum at September 16, 2018 01:47 PM (MIKMs)
---------------------------
There are three things that Tocqueville believed might stop the degradation of our democracy into a "soft" but stifling totalitarianism.

One was the widespread, ground-level strength of American Christianity.

Another was the abundance of land and (relatively) low urbanization. He saw this as a decentralizing force that might protect federalism.

And he noted with approval that the American academy still had a classical curriculum, which he thought essential to inculcating the old secular values of courage, honor, temperance, prudence, etc.

You do the math!
*sigh*

Posted by: Margarita DeVille at September 16, 2018 02:16 PM (0jtPF)

196 They were as "neutral" as the Swiss or the Irish. Meaning they tried to make as much money as possible while hoping the Germans won.
Posted by: San Franpsycho at September 16, 2018 02:14 PM (EZebt)


To be fair, I don't think they cared which side won as long as the money kept flowing in.

Posted by: Traveling Man &&&& at September 16, 2018 02:17 PM (JVddv)

197 Our betters ain't.
Posted by: Grump928(C) at September 16, 2018 02:16 PM (yQpMk)

That's the takeaway from all this. There was a time when an educated elite helped to guide the way based on moral principles.
Now they are dykes and soyboys....

Posted by: JoeF. at September 16, 2018 02:18 PM (NFEMn)

198 To be fair, I don't think they cared which side won as long as the money kept flowing in.
Posted by: Traveling Man &&&& at September 16, 2018 02:17 PM (JVddv)

------------------

They could have ended trade and starved or froze to death.

Posted by: RioBravo at September 16, 2018 02:19 PM (iQKgg)

199 OT/ but the Kavanaugh "victim" has come out with a
lurid tale of attempted rape and has a MeToo lawyer... Doesn't look
good... Fuck the Dems

Posted by: It's me donna at September 16, 2018 01:55 PM (O2RFr)

---
so we have a name?

time to give her entire life a whole body colonoscopy and find every flaw in it, then broadcast it to the world.

make them live by their rules.

Posted by: redc1c4 at September 16, 2018 02:19 PM (rjbMC)

200 As the chick in this story is sweedish, it only a matter of time that she is raped by a mohammad. When that happens, I bet her boyish friends will jack off at her crying recount of her ordeal. To hell with them!

Posted by: Will Tryon at September 16, 2018 02:20 PM (Ze99w)

201 To be fair, I don't think they cared which side won as long as the money kept flowing in.
Posted by: Traveling Man &&&& at September 16, 2018 02:17 PM (JVddv)

Also, to the extent they were involved, they usually helped both sides.

Posted by: JoeF. at September 16, 2018 02:20 PM (NFEMn)

202 I know there was a drive by the abolitionists to explain to the clueless in general what the slave experience was -- the arbitrariness, the degradation and the powerlessness -- I wonder if there shouldn't be a new drive like this for the slaves of socialism.

There really isn't a difference between the experience of slaves, regardless of the rationalization for enslavement. Anyone told to choose between "Seven Years a Slave" or "Gulag Archipelago" is going to have a hard time picking which was worse.

And, for all their spitting hatred for it and rhetoric about hatred and racism, the typical leftist will choose 1950s America over either of those.

Posted by: Rob Crawford at September 16, 2018 02:21 PM (naEeR)

203 on topic:
http://smallestminority.blogspot.com/2003/11/
that-sumbitch-aint-been-born-early.html

The first line of the Declaration is one strongly definitive of an American ideal - equality of birth.



There is a story, a joke in some ways, an allegory in others, that dates
way back. In it, a British Lord travels to the Frontier West, America
in the 1800's. His horse throws a shoe on the trail, so at the first
little frontier town he comes to, he finds a blacksmith's shop to have
the shoe replaced. As he rides up, he sees a large, sweaty, filthy man
hammering on a piece of red-hot iron. The Lord sits on his horse,
waiting to be served, but the blacksmith doesn't pay him any attention
and continues to work his iron. Finally, the Lord, outraged to have been
ignored this way by an obvious servant, dismounts, approaches the
'smith, and taps the man on the shoulder with his riding crop.



"You, man!" he barks, "Who is your Master! I wish to have a word with him!"



The blacksmith turns, looks at the Englishman, spits a stream of tobacco juice on the point of the Lord's boot and says,


"That sumbitch ain't been born."

Posted by: redc1c4 at September 16, 2018 02:24 PM (rjbMC)

204 OT/ but the Kavanaugh "victim" has come out with a
lurid tale of attempted rape and has a MeToo lawyer... Doesn't look
good...


It's a bullshit story no matter how "bad" it looks. They have scriptwriters and coaches and have had time for her to practice her role. She didn't accuse him then, so how bad could it have been?

(And spare me the "but back then..." I was alive in the '80s -- rapists only lived because normal guys would have been executed for putting them down.)

Posted by: Rob Crawford at September 16, 2018 02:24 PM (naEeR)

205 Posted by: illiniwek at September 16, 2018 01:57 PM (Cus5s)

I don't think so. Henry Ford, Studebaker, GM etc sold to Stalin. Hitlery did not need our trucks.

Posted by: clutch at September 16, 2018 02:26 PM (kiSdp)

206 Anyone told to choose between "Seven Years a Slave" or "Gulag Archipelago" is going to have a hard time picking which was worse.

-------

This. By and large, by any objective standard-of-living measurement, the British or American black slave had it substantially better than a Gulag inmate.

But, total loss of liberty for no reason is the lowest standard of living for a human.

Any further indignity or brutality is simply shit-icing on the shitcake of life, after that.

Posted by: Yudhishthira's Dice at September 16, 2018 02:26 PM (5aX2M)

207 " They were as "neutral" as the Swiss or the Irish. Meaning they tried to make as much money as possible while hoping the Germans won. "

Ireland was strictly neutral, and suffered economically during the war because of it.

Churchill had a plan to seize Southern Irish ports to extend his anti-submarine cover, but was talked out of it.

The worst WWII duty you could get was to be a British or German pilot downed in Ireland. The horror!

It's true that Irish President de Valera sent his regrets to the resident German ambassador on the day that Hitler died. It was a joke, people.

Posted by: Ignoramus at September 16, 2018 02:27 PM (1UZdv)

208 Thanks, Rio Bravo, for clearing up the ball bearing mess. It sounds like you know of what you speak, or at least stayed in a Holiday Inn Express last night.

Posted by: Jinx the Cat at September 16, 2018 02:28 PM (eFRS+)

209 Posted by: Deplorable Jay Guevara, now with an added spark of divinity at September 16, 2018 02:14 PM (YqDXo)

What does she do for work, Jay?

Posted by: clutch at September 16, 2018 02:32 PM (kiSdp)

210
Real socialists are those who can afford to be, and who can insulate
themselves from it. The others who claim to be socialists are either
ill-informed or stupid.
Posted by: San Franpsycho at September 16, 2018 02:07 PM (EZebt)

I believe it to be a moral ill to shield people from the consequences of their poor decisions. It does not good and encourages them to repeat the errors.

Posted by: Kindltot at September 16, 2018 02:32 PM (2K6fY)

211 "not the vile anti-Americanism of her peers -- that is to be expected in European society"

Funny that, I'm Flemish and have always been rather pro-American. But what gets me, at times, is the, by times, vile anti-Europeanism (*) on the Right.

See, a Bernie Sanders may be a socialist but he is an American socialist and not an European one.Socialism may have come from Europe but so did the English language. Or, for another example, Obama may be admired by a lot of European idiots but they didn't vote for him and they most certainly did not create him. Your ex-TOTUS is 100% Made in the USA.

As for anti-Americanism, the worm turned in the sixties (like so many things). And one of the factors seems to have been the anti-Americanism of your very own media and 'intellectuals'. In other words, you have been wildly successful in exporting the anti-Americanism within your own society. And you keep on doing it with your present day MsM. If your media don't inform your own population do you think they inform European populations any better? And our own media, proud to say (/s), are just as bad as yours.

Now the USA Left has not the ability to make me anti-American. I despise the Left, whether they are USA or European. But the Right certainly has the ability to take my pro-Americanism a few notches down, temporarily.

My take on the whole thing, we have the same societal diseases. Projecting our sins on each other helps nobody.



(*) Oh, and I don't mean by that the anti-EU sentiments. For me the 'EU' has become a suicide pact and should be terminated with prejudice.

Posted by: PhilD at September 16, 2018 02:33 PM (xy+1i)

212 Everything changes but the avant-garde.

Posted by: Bill Befort at September 16, 2018 02:35 PM (hJFOo)

213 What does she do for work, Jay?
Posted by: clutch at September 16, 2018 02:32 PM (kiSdp)


"Self-employed." For some values of "employed."

Posted by: Deplorable Jay Guevara, now with an added spark of divinity at September 16, 2018 02:36 PM (YqDXo)

214 As Palp notes daily, the Left deserves every bit of the Kanal Zek future they imagine forcing on us.

Posted by: Grump928(C) at September 16, 2018 02:36 PM (yQpMk)

215 What does she do for work, Jay?
Posted by: clutch at September 16, 2018 02:32 PM (kiSdp)


Sorry, but I can't answer more substantively. Opsec, and all that.

Posted by: Deplorable Jay Guevara, now with an added spark of divinity at September 16, 2018 02:36 PM (YqDXo)

216 I'm Flemish and have always been rather pro-American.


Are you here? Or in Belgium?

Posted by: Grump928(C) at September 16, 2018 02:38 PM (yQpMk)

217 Posted by: PhilD at September 16, 2018 02:33 PM (xy+1i)

-----

I'm by no means a Euro-basher. I just don't want to be infected by their social diseases of socialism or feudalism. Anymore than they want to be infected by our own ones, like crime, violence, rioting, etc.

Funny thing is, with globalism, most of us get what we least want from one another, while a few skim the cream off the top.

Posted by: Yudhishthira's Dice at September 16, 2018 02:39 PM (5aX2M)

218 Anyone told to choose between "Seven Years a Slave" or "Gulag Archipelago" is going to have a hard time picking which was worse.
-----------------------------------
I'd have no problem. None at all.
Just look at the death rates.
How many American slaves starved or froze to death?

(That's just looking at it from one angle though.
There are other aspects that might make slavery worse.)

Posted by: Margarita DeVille at September 16, 2018 02:42 PM (0jtPF)

219 Flemish is my name, Belgian is my curse name. But for all that, I wouldn't want to leave my country. It's mine.

"social diseases of socialism or feudalism."
See, that's just what I mean. 'Feudalism', come on. And didn't I use Bernie Sanders as an example?

Posted by: PhilD at September 16, 2018 02:42 PM (xy+1i)

220 To claim that European governments and news agencies have no agency of their own and rely wholly on ABCNBCCBSCNN for their opinion is laughable.

I am sure EFF and AFP would object at least.

Though the influence of USSR driven opinion from the Basque and Catalan, the Italian and French, the German and Scandanavian communist movements, through actual subsidies from the Soviets and currently the Chinese have a lot to do with opinion shaping.

A lot of my prof's in college went and got themselves some revolutionary teachings in Europe and Britain, lot of them came back to teach it here. Note, it didn't go the other way.

Of course they hate us, they have to for what they planned for us.

Posted by: Kindltot at September 16, 2018 02:45 PM (2K6fY)

221
So now, coming up on 30 years later, I'm still living paycheck to paycheck, struggling a bit. But I have no regrets. The preservation of my soul is worth my less-than-affluent lifestyle.

Posted by: IllTemperedCur at September 16, 2018 02:14 PM (eXA4G)

This is one of the most profound things I've seen. Thank you for saying this, because it's putting some things into perspective in my family, vis a vis working in a place that drains you, versus not having quite enough money.

Posted by: moki at September 16, 2018 02:46 PM (mFoNl)

222 Ford had a plant(s?) right in Germany ... and there are many accounts of their trucks being used by Nazis. others claim varying degrees of actual support ... or at least profit, from their production which still had connections outside Germany. Henry himself ... another story.

Posted by: illiniwek at September 16, 2018 02:47 PM (Cus5s)

223 RioBravo, the Golson stuff appears to be online, and there's a lot. Apparently he has made Sweden's role in WWII and specifically their ball bearing and specialty steel (what we'd call it today) industries, and their impact on a lot of things in Europe, a focus of his research.

Posted by: rhomboid at September 16, 2018 02:48 PM (QDnY+)

224 The Best Europeans are Americans, or vice versa. Depending on how you look at it.

Posted by: Grump928(C) Believes America to be the Middle Kingdom at September 16, 2018 02:48 PM (yQpMk)

225 I think Ikea meat ballers taste like F.A.G bearings with a schmeer of ladies volleyball short exudation......in other words Mahvelously sweaty......

Posted by: saf at September 16, 2018 02:51 PM (5IHGB)

226 "To claim that European governments and news agencies have no agency of their own and rely wholly on ABCNBCCBSCNN for their opinion is laughable."

Indeed. That's why I nowhere did make that claim.

"Note, it didn't go the other way."
I think the 68'rs were a Western infection, not a particular European one. Or wasn't there any radicalization on USA universities going on?

Posted by: PhilD at September 16, 2018 02:52 PM (xy+1i)

227 A 2nd book thread is up.

Posted by: Grump928(C) Believes America to be the Middle Kingdom at September 16, 2018 02:52 PM (yQpMk)

228 Posted by: PhilD at September 16, 2018 02:42 PM (xy+1i)

----

See, I've always seen socialism and feudalism as closely related. Nothing truly is owned by anyone, aside from the King or State. Vassals or Party members hold wealth and power by virtue of homage. Serfs or workers are beholden, and have neither wealth or power.

It's just the old system dressed up with modern rhetoric.

Posted by: Yudhishthira's Dice at September 16, 2018 02:53 PM (5aX2M)

229 Posted by: illiniwek at September 16, 2018 02:47 PM (Cus5s)

The plants were there yes, but Ford did not support them during the war. It's not like the Nazis didn't know how to build vehicles. The plant in Cologne is still there but the Krauts took it over in WWII.

Posted by: clutch at September 16, 2018 02:53 PM (kiSdp)

230 illiniwek, I don't think it's accurate to say Ford supported Germany, per se, in any meaningful sense, as Nazi Germany, after Sept. 1, 1939. Henry's views were somewhat crank, but I don't think as simple as often portrayed.


When Bill Knudsen initially did his extraordinary informal round-up of auto sector companies willing to begin gearing up for war production, prior to Pearl Harbor (at FDR's behest), Ford was the only major outfit that didn't respond fairly enthusiastically. Part of this was due to Henry's views, but the CEO at the time also had his reservations.


But things changed, and Edsel was running the company for much of the war. I think Ford Co. changed tack prior to Pearl Harbor, when the execs came to San Diego to study/copy/borrow Consolidated's B-24 design and production, in order to set up Willow Run. Think that was pre-Pearl Harbor.


In any case, once the US was in, Ford was right there with the rest of the auto sector as a key component of our unbelievable war production.


My understanding is that Ford and GM's German facilities were bombed, but never actually utilized by the Nazis for much war production. One of the irrational items that Speer never got to, probably, in his amazing rationalization/improvement of German industry once he took over from the dead Todt (yeah, couldn't resist that one).



Posted by: rhomboid at September 16, 2018 02:55 PM (QDnY+)

231 California professor Christine Blasey Ford Is the Kavanaugh accuser.

Posted by: clutch at September 16, 2018 02:57 PM (kiSdp)

232 Ford has an Escape,Explorer and a F150...the ecact # of guys she has fucked.....................

Posted by: saf at September 16, 2018 03:01 PM (5IHGB)

233 How perfect that it be a CA academic.


The only real question remaining is whether the GOP, at any level - those now in office or about to be - have the wisdom and guts to finally, finally, start treating the opposition and the press etc. as has long been needed.


I doubt a working majority of Americans are as lawless, shameless, stupid, corrupt, and gripped by alien values and ideas as the dominant Dem/media sub-culture that dominates the public square. The Dem/media bloc has been trashing norms (heh) left and right, with insane intensity since Trump's nomination.


There has been no revolt, apart from the amazing Trump phenomenon, by GOP/independent voters, to the Dem/media/"left" excesses and insanity, to date. Apart from the 2010 mid-terms - which the GOP successfully absorbed/declawed/relegated to history.

Posted by: rhomboid at September 16, 2018 03:02 PM (QDnY+)

234 "See, I've always seen socialism and feudalism as closely related."

Feudalism is an historical system that came into being because of the break down of empire. It is a form of particularism and localized power. It is also a formal system of rights and duties.

Socialism is an atheistic philosophy and is the opposite of feudalism. In fact, proponents of it use the same 'arguments' as you and are as anti-feudal as you.

Feudalism is an historical system that worked, changed and evolved in modern society. It does have an heritage like in the English common law which forms the basis of your law system.

Socialism has not been really tried yet but will no doubt work with the right persons in power (/s). Like for instance your Bernie Sanders, the USA's very own socialist (/sarcasm again)

Posted by: PhilD at September 16, 2018 03:11 PM (xy+1i)

235 231 California professor Christine Blasey Ford Is the Kavanaugh accuser.
Posted by: clutch at September 16, 2018 02:57 PM (kiSdp)


Back from high school? Kavanaugh or one of his supporters needs to assert that she was a notorious slut back then that everybody bopped.

Make her prove she wasn't. Pretty much the converse of what she is doing now. How do you address an allegation from 40 years ago?

Posted by: Deplorable Jay Guevara, now with an added spark of divinity at September 16, 2018 03:23 PM (YqDXo)

236 thanks rhomboid ... sounds right.
Ford here certainly produced bombers for US, but the more conspiratorial accounts point toward some cooperation with the "other side". (like whether the German Ford plant needed tech/other support from "HQ")

(and supposedly, some early support for Hitler/Nazis by industrialists, was mostly anti-communist, not pro-Hitler or anti-Semite. but those are just blurbs I read, can't verify much)

I don't know how true that is ... or other theories about those loaning money to both sides. I asked a friend from Belgium about it once ... she didn't know detailed history but just kinda shrugged off their occupation as "hey, you do what you gotta do" (to survive).

In that sense alone, Europe has a different heritage (and the resultant different current views) than we American "cowboys". We were concerned, but mostly listened to the news on the radio, while family was sent across oceans.

Posted by: illiniwek at September 16, 2018 03:26 PM (Cus5s)

237 52 44. we're finding that same mindset here cf. Iowa dad whose young daughter was killed by Illegal Alien. His rationale was they have better food so totes OK if they rape/murder us.
Posted by: kallisto at September 16, 2018 12:57 PM (tcamx)

Mexican food is better?! So his daughter should be murdered? F him. American food can be the best if you don't just eat fast food. He probably has never used any spices in his food.

Posted by: free tibet, with purchase of equal or greater value tibet at September 16, 2018 03:40 PM (CL76w)

238 Posted by: PhilD at September 16, 2018 03:11 PM (xy+1i)

--------

Well, of course we have our own socialism. I hate it.

Re: Socialism vs. Feudalism... never forget that socialism took root and spread from Russian soil... a country that only (legally) abandoned serfdom in the 1860s. It kept on, though.

Posted by: Yudhishthira's Dice at September 16, 2018 03:47 PM (5aX2M)

239 Bernie Sanders is a clown.

Posted by: Grump928(C) Believes America to be the Middle Kingdom at September 16, 2018 03:53 PM (yQpMk)

240 Read up on Christine Blasey Ford and now have more questions than answers. She mentioned being assaulted to her husband and her therapist, but so what?

She was 15 at a house party in which there was underaged drinking. Was she drunk? High?

Posted by: NaughtyPine at September 16, 2018 03:54 PM (/+bwe)

241 And the USA had a big war in the 1860's to get rid of slavery.

Also, 'feudalism' predates Russia by a couple of hundred of years. So what socialism in Russia has to do with is anybody's guess. Especially when the theorists of communism/socialism thought it had no change in Russia just because of its backward social structure.

For that matter, I can't imagine what feudalism has to do with me. I can assure you, I wont kiss any baron's boot today or for that matter anyday. And I don't think that a JS Bach or a Shakespeare were some poor feudalistic mudcrawling serfs who never accomplished anything in their lives because of feudal oppression.
Western history and heritage is quit a lot richer then some political theory of everything is the same.

Btw, the USA did not come into being tabula rasa.

Posted by: PhilD at September 16, 2018 04:04 PM (xy+1i)

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