CNN: Gee, Maybe Trump Deserves Some Credit For This Strong Economy

CNN is now less hostile to the president than NeverTrump.

From Sexton's write-up, but quoting CNN.

President Donald Trump thinks he's overdue some credit for steering the strongest economy on the planet -- and he's probably right...
Often, the President's hyperbolic assessment of his own performance is at odds with the facts. But Friday’s announcement that the economy grew at a 4.1% pace in the second quarter, the best showing since 2014, is genuine cause for celebration.
It may also be his best chance to argue that a huge and controversial tax cut, the only really significant legislation he has managed to pass, is -- as he said it would - -unleashing prosperity...
Unemployment is lower than it has been for decades, corporate earnings are strong and it seems unlikely that a sudden crisis is looming that could derail things before Americans head to the polls in midterm elections that will have a huge bearing on Trump's presidency.

Sexton himself notes CNN's previous headline:

Back in 2016, CNN even ran a story with this headline: "Trump promises 4% growth. Economists say no way."

There's a little apples-to-oranges here, because CNN was downplaying the possibility of 4%+ yearly growth, while Trump's 4.1% is just a quarterly reading. It's relatively common to have a mere quarter of 4%+ growth -- as the media has informed us ceaselessly, even Obama managed that trick a few times in his 32 quarters of presidentin'.

We'll see if Trump can actually unleash a 4% year.

But even 3% yearly growth would be a huge change in what has become the New Normal of 2-2.3% yearly growth. The Wall Street Journal welcomes the new era of 3% growth, and says, basically, "My goodness, how we've missed you."

So much for "secular stagnation." You remember that notion, made fashionable by economist Larry Summers and picked up by the press corps to explain why the U.S. economy couldn't rise above the 2.2% doldrums of the Obama years. Well, with Friday's report of 4.1% growth in the second quarter, the U.S. economy has now averaged 3.1% growth for the last six months and 2.8% for the last 12.

"Secular" in economics terms means "long term" and "built deep into the structure of economic fundamentals" and is contrasted with both short-term and "cyclical."

Talking about "secular stagnation" is talking about a near-permanent reduction of expectations, growth, and wealth.

The lesson is that policies matter and so does the tone set by political leaders. For eight years Barack Obama told Americans that inequality was a bigger problem than slow economic growth, that stagnant wages were the fault of the rich, and that government through regulation and politically directed credit could create prosperity. The result was slow growth, and secular stagnation was the intellectual attempt to explain that policy failure.
The policy mix changed with Donald Trump's election and a Republican Congress to turn it into law. Deregulation and tax reform were the first-year priorities that have liberated risk-taking and investment, spurring a revival in business confidence and growth to give the long expansion a second wind.
The nearby chart shows GDP growth by quarter over the last four years. The numbers show that the long, weak expansion that began in mid-2009 had flagged to below 2% growth in the last half of 2015 and in 2016. Nonresidential fixed investment in particular had slumped to an average quarterly increase of merely 0.6% in those final two years of the Obama Presidency. An economic expansion that was already long in the tooth began to fade and could have slid into recession with a negative shock.
The Paul Ryan-Donald Trump growth agenda was targeted to revive that investment weakness. Deregulation signaled to business that arbitrary enforcement and compliance costs wouldn't be imposed on ideological whim. Tax reform broke the bottleneck on capital mobility and investment from the highest corporate tax rate in the developed world. Above all, the political message from Washington after eight years is that faster growth is possible and investment to turn a profit is encouraged.
The chart and the second-quarter GDP report show that this policy mix is working. Growth popped to a higher plane of nearly 3% in the middle of 2017 as business and consumer confidence increased with the Trump Administration's policies taking center stage. A growth dip in the last quarter of 2017 on tax-reform uncertainties carried over to the start of the first quarter, but growth has since accelerated.
...
Most intriguing is that the government's annual revisions to long-term GDP on Friday showed a sharp increase in the personal savings rate. The increase was due to an upward revision in wages and salaries and jumped to 6.7% from 3.4% for 2017 and averaged 7% in the first half of this year. That's about $500 billion more in the pockets of Americans than previously estimated and helps to explain why consumer spending has remained strong. With tight labor markets, consumer spending should keep contributing to growth.

The rest of the article cautions Trump against his bluster about possible tariff wars over what he calls "unfair trade," without seeming to realize that the higher wages caused by the "tight labor market" are at least partly due to keeping more jobs in America.

Will Trump actually achieve 4% growth? Well for the current year, the forecast had been for 3%, revised down to around 2.8% due to concerns about the "trade wars" that have not actually materialized yet in any large way. We'll see if that number is revised back up if these fears subside, and the unchallenged assumption that that free trade is an unambiguous good for a nation even if its trade partners are not offering free trade in return gets a little challenging.

But yeah, 4% is probably possible. Not likely, but possible. No one saw Reagan's 5.5% yearly growth years coming. In fact they similarly claimed such things were impossible.*

4% growth would be, after 16 straight years of anemic growth and non-growth, a stratospheric level for the economy. Reaching the stratosphere requires an upward trajectory, first of all. That's not all you need to reach high altitudes, but it is an indispensible starting requirement.

Well, we have that now. Thanks, Trump!

* Most people make Straight Line Projections from the now into the future. They imagine the future will be just like now, except with different dates.

Forecasters do not like deviating from that straight line projection, except to add a peak or valley here or there to show their analysis is not solely a straight-line projection.

But I've had a theory for some time -- not really proven or even tested; just an observation and wild-ass guess -- that the straight-line projection method of forecasting the future is almost always guaranteed to be wildly wrong. You don't know how things will change, whether we'll have a big upside or a big catastrophe, but I sense that the odds of these latter two possibilities, Big Good Change and Big Bad Change taken together, are orders of magnitude** more likely than the conservative Straight Line Projection forecast.

The Straight Line Projection feels the "safest" to forecasters because it's a mix of good and bad, and because, by predicting no major changes, they seem Responsible and Sober.

However, safe though this prediction might be for one's reputation, it is wrong more often than it is right.

It reminds me of the idea that any particle exists in a blend of all possible quantum states. The straight line projection is kind of like that blend of all possible future states.

But like the superposition of quantum states, they do not remain in that blended state of all bad and good possibilities. The moment a quantum state is measured -- or, in my analogy, the moment the future actually arrives -- the quantum superposition collapses into an unambiguous and binary Up or Down position.

We do not remain in the blended state of all possible futures forever. Only until the future actually arrives.

** Well, I overstated. Not orders of magnitude more likely. But more likely.

Posted by: Ace of Spades at 04:52 PM

Comments

(Jump to bottom of comments)

1 First

Posted by: Anna Puma (HQCaR) at July 31, 2018 04:53 PM (ZNTrW)

2 I still want to see CNN go down like Capt Kristol on the Lipo Deck of the Titanic.

Posted by: Anna Puma (HQCaR) at July 31, 2018 04:54 PM (ZNTrW)

3 Corgi time

Posted by: Anna Puma (HQCaR) at July 31, 2018 04:54 PM (ZNTrW)

4 So what do we call Trump's economic plan - Collusion economics?

Posted by: DamnedYankee at July 31, 2018 04:55 PM (37IEG)

5 CNN needs to loan JoeMika a clue card. They were literally chortling over PDT's claiming credit for the economy.

Posted by: Jane D'oh at July 31, 2018 04:55 PM (ptqGC)

6 due to concerns about the "trade wars" that have not actually materialized yet in any large way.>>>

Just wait until I crush you economy.

Posted by: Justin Trudeu at July 31, 2018 04:56 PM (P/aDH)

7 If CNN is giving Trump semi-credit for the economy NOW , they are only setting him up for something LATER.

Posted by: JoeF. at July 31, 2018 04:56 PM (y8Foj)

8 "Unemployment is lower than it has been for decades, corporate earnings
are strong and it seems unlikely that a sudden crisis is looming that
could derail things before Americans head to the polls in midterm
elections that will have a huge bearing on Trump's presidency."

They are just prepping excuses for why the blue tidal wave failed to materialize.

facebook is already working on the Russian meddling part.

Posted by: The Great White Scotsman at July 31, 2018 04:57 PM (JUOKG)

9 In before the NT's shit up the joint.

Posted by: Sponge at July 31, 2018 04:57 PM (F4u7C)

10 THIS is....CNN?

Posted by: Zombie Robbo the Llamabutcher at July 31, 2018 04:57 PM (6gTDE)

11 It's almost as if Trump knows what he is doing....

Posted by: steevy at July 31, 2018 04:57 PM (LiyEm)

12 CNN needs to loan JoeMika a clue card. They were literally chortling over PDT's claiming credit for the economy.
Posted by: Jane D'oh at July 31, 2018 04:55 PM (ptqGC)

I saw that. Scarborough looked like a jackass.

Posted by: JoeF. at July 31, 2018 04:57 PM (y8Foj)

13 Top 10??

Posted by: cornbred at July 31, 2018 04:57 PM (CeJDJ)

14 What... luck!

Trump stumbled into this economy, no?

Posted by: Lizzy at July 31, 2018 04:58 PM (W+vEI)

15 One of the tastier little nuggets in the Q2 numbers was the the big drawn down on inventories. Those will need to be rebuilt so that pretty much locks in a good chunk of spending for the rest of the year.

And the virtuous cycle continues.

Posted by: JackStraw at July 31, 2018 04:58 PM (/tuJf)

16 Trump stumbled into this economy, no?
Posted by: Lizzy at July 31, 2018 04:58 PM (W+vEI)

I set it up for him.

Posted by: Barry at July 31, 2018 04:58 PM (y8Foj)

17 So far just about every prediction they have made has been wrong. Not kinda wrong, but completely, Jeane-Dixon-predicting-the-return-of-alien-Elvis wrong.

Posted by: Citizen Cake at July 31, 2018 04:58 PM (R85nB)

18 >>CNN needs to loan JoeMika a clue card. They were literally chortling over PDT's claiming credit for the economy.

They really are Beavis and Butthead, eh?

Posted by: Lizzy at July 31, 2018 04:59 PM (W+vEI)

19
>> But yeah, 4% is probably possible. No one saw Reagan's 5.5% yearly growth years coming. In fact they similarly claimed such things were impossible. >>

And they STILL harp on about trickle down economics and how it didn't work. When half the asses harping about that weren't even BORN yet when Reagan left office. They are in the dark about the tie-died double digit interest rates, rampant inflation, bell-bottomed economy under Jimmah "Plenty-O-Teeth" Carter

Posted by: Sphynx at July 31, 2018 04:59 PM (rXie1)

20 14
What... luck!

Trump stumbled into this economy, no?

Posted by: Lizzy at July 31, 2018 04:58 PM (W+vEI)
Like heck! RECOVERY SUMMER! I told you! I told you all it would work! Joe! Tell em I told them!
(Biden) Bewbies!

Posted by: Barack Hussein Obama at July 31, 2018 04:59 PM (37IEG)

21 the View stated this was Obama's economy.

I almost threw the t.v.

Posted by: willow at July 31, 2018 04:59 PM (dPd5y)

22 Well,

WSJ even admitting it

U.S. Workers Get Biggest Pay Increase in Nearly a Decade
Employment cost index, which measures wages and benefits, grew 2.8% percent in the 12 months to last month

Posted by: artisanal 'ette at July 31, 2018 04:59 PM (sdl8C)

23 Thank God the Russians were able to turn Trump into a economic genius.

Posted by: Jiffy at July 31, 2018 04:59 PM (2LelM)

24 They should fuse Joe and Mika together; then they might have a cumulative IQ to reach double digits, like 10.

Posted by: Anna Puma (HQCaR) at July 31, 2018 04:59 PM (ZNTrW)

25 this
https://archive.fo/PDojp

and this
https://www.usatoday.com/story/money/2017/05/01/can-trump-deliver-4-economic-growth/101048654/

and this
http://bluepillsheep.com/25-experts-claimed-trump-never-get-3-gdp-suck/

Posted by: rhennigantx at July 31, 2018 05:00 PM (JFO2v)

26 They really are Beavis and Butthead, eh?

Posted by: Lizzy at July 31, 2018 04:59 PM (W+vEI)

They really are.

Posted by: Jane D'oh at July 31, 2018 05:00 PM (ptqGC)

27 scarborough is a jack ass. hence the butthead impression. somebody should ask that poser about dead interns every damn day.

Posted by: chavez the hugo at July 31, 2018 05:00 PM (KP5rU)

28 Quick! Get the guy back on with Brooke Baldwin who said boobs, they may pass reruns of Family Fued if CNN acts right now.

Posted by: 1st world problems yoga studio at July 31, 2018 05:00 PM (t82DG)

29 24
They should fuse Joe and Mika together; then they might have a cumulative IQ to reach double digits, like 10.

Posted by: Anna Puma (HQCaR) at July 31, 2018 04:59 PM (ZNTrW)
I thought they were fusing together...on occasion...you know...at night....uh....yeah.

Posted by: DamnedYankee at July 31, 2018 05:00 PM (37IEG)

30 He is 2nd best to Obama? That is a pretty low bar

Posted by: Comrade at July 31, 2018 05:00 PM (X5g/E)

31 still want to see CNN go down like Capt Kristol

pretty sure there is film of the latter in the Chamber Of Commerce archive

Posted by: Boulder t'hobo at July 31, 2018 05:01 PM (bjOmo)

32 So.. miss me yet?

Posted by: Ex President Cock Curious at July 31, 2018 05:01 PM (jDF8P)

33 32
So.. miss me yet?

Posted by: Ex President Cock Curious at July 31, 2018 05:01 PM (jDF8P)

No. Go back to shaking your bum bum to Beyonce.

Posted by: IC, now with extra super elite at July 31, 2018 05:01 PM (a0IVu)

34 the View stated this was Obama's economy.

I almost threw the t.v.
Posted by: willow at July 31, 2018 04:59 PM (dPd5y)

Too late for that. There were already a spate of "This is Trump's Economy Now" stories the last couple of times the Stock Market took a (brief) dive down.....

Posted by: JoeF. at July 31, 2018 05:02 PM (y8Foj)

35 I wonder what Economic Whiz Kid Occasional Cortex has to say about this.

Posted by: Teresa in Fort Worth, Texas at July 31, 2018 05:02 PM (uDcBt)

36 So what do we call Trump's economic plan - Collusion economics?
Posted by: DamnedYankee at July 31, 2018 04:55 PM (37IEG)

Collusionomics!

Posted by: Surfperch at July 31, 2018 05:02 PM (BHRUO)

37 My favorite thing is that these super smart geniuses can't grasp that MAGA resonates so much because of the excuses of 'the New Normal' that were thrown around for 8 years.

Posted by: Joe, not the other one at July 31, 2018 05:02 PM (7pOq5)

38 They should fuse Joe and Mika together; then they might have a cumulative IQ to reach double digits, like 10.

When combined their IQs cancel each other out.

Posted by: Northernlurker, but call me Teem at July 31, 2018 05:02 PM (nBr1j)

39 I'm going to see "Secular Stagnation" play at the club this weekend.

Posted by: Citizen Cake at July 31, 2018 05:02 PM (R85nB)

40 Gaylord Merkin Focker the Wurst, the only President with a library that is a gold plated iPod.

Posted by: Anna Puma (HQCaR) at July 31, 2018 05:02 PM (ZNTrW)

41 It's almost as if Trump is a shrewd businessman or something.

Or maybe it's just that he's the first President since Reagan who hasn't intentionally tanked the economy while giving away the farm to worthless third world leeches.

Posted by: cornbred at July 31, 2018 05:02 PM (CeJDJ)

42 No one saw Reagan's 5.5% yearly growth years coming. In fact they similarly claimed such things were impossible.

In fairness to Trump, Reaganesque increases only happen as we are coming out of recession. Continued too long and there is a chance that the governor of rising interest rates will choke things back a bit.

Interestingly, I believe that if Obama had done nothing at all in office, he would have seen 4%+ annual increases after a year or two since he inherited an economy in recession.

That he did not only shows the bankruptcy of progressive "economics".

Posted by: Grump928(c) at July 31, 2018 05:03 PM (yQpMk)

43 "President Donald Trump thinks he's overdue some credit for steering the strongest economy on the planet -- and he's probably right..."

"Probably."

Really tightening up the ship over there at CNN. Not a hint of bias.

Posted by: AnonyBotymousDrivel at July 31, 2018 05:03 PM (6eEQ+)

44 >>the View stated this was Obama's economy.

They make Joe and Mika look like brain surgeons.
How is that show still going?

Posted by: Lizzy at July 31, 2018 05:03 PM (W+vEI)

45 PDT done good. And yes, we just threw up in our mouths. This is CNN.

Posted by: Archer at July 31, 2018 05:03 PM (gmo/4)

46 Took two years of Reagan's administration and policies before the economy took off. The USA is an oil tanker and not a speed boat. It takes time to do a 180. Unfortunately the ability for the public to discern cause and effect is lacking.

Posted by: Lancelot Link Secret Agent Chimp at July 31, 2018 05:03 PM (C5Lvr)

47 Don't forget, Obama had that economic genius Austan Goolsby advising him.

Posted by: Jane D'oh at July 31, 2018 05:04 PM (ptqGC)

48 What are Cap'n Kristol and Lieutenant French going to bitch about now? I'm sure their Dem friends will show the way.

Posted by: Decaf at July 31, 2018 05:04 PM (Mymqt)

49 Working on squaring circles. bbl.

Posted by: Rick Wilson at July 31, 2018 05:04 PM (r9UYA)

50 28 Quick! Get the guy back on with Brooke Baldwin who said boobs, they may pass reruns of Family Fued if CNN acts right now.
Posted by: 1st world problems yoga studio at July 31, 2018 05:00 PM (t82DG)

When she asked me did you say boobs?
yep, knockers, sweater puppies, headlights, funbags, milkjugs, tatas, how about just plain old big tits?

Posted by: rhennigantx at July 31, 2018 05:04 PM (JFO2v)

51 Sorry, Mr. Krugman, I can't just leave the bottle...

Posted by: Krugman's Bartender at July 31, 2018 05:04 PM (jDF8P)

52 Trump might be benefiting from a delayed recovery of the 2008 recession.

Posted by: Grump928(c) at July 31, 2018 05:04 PM (yQpMk)

53 This might be a good time to revisit Krugman's sage advice after the election. To point and laugh.

Posted by: IC, now with extra super elite at July 31, 2018 05:05 PM (a0IVu)

54 The US went from 'quantitative easing' to 'QuanTITative Winning!'

Posted by: Anna Puma (HQCaR) at July 31, 2018 05:05 PM (ZNTrW)

55 View stated this was Obama's economy.

They make Joe and Mika look like brain surgeons.
How is that show still going?
Posted by: Lizzy at July 31, 2018 05:03 PM (W+vEI)

Compared to their audience, they are brain surgeons.

Posted by: Archer at July 31, 2018 05:06 PM (gmo/4)

56 I told you Trump was going to revive the economy.

Posted by: Glenn Beck!!! at July 31, 2018 05:06 PM (r9UYA)

57 More like bwain sturgeons

Posted by: Anna Puma (HQCaR) at July 31, 2018 05:06 PM (ZNTrW)

58 I can't get excited about the economy when we're still racking up trillion dollar deficits year after year with no end in sight, and nobody is willing or able to put a stop to it. This will not end well.

Posted by: rickl at July 31, 2018 05:06 PM (xjiRE)

59

For some reason the name "Krugman" conjures for me an image of as SS Waffen officer,

Obersturmführer Krugman

Posted by: Sphynx at July 31, 2018 05:06 PM (rXie1)

60 Trump might be benefiting from a delayed recovery of the 2008 recession.
Posted by: Grump928(c) at July 31, 2018 05:04 PM (yQpMk

The delayed recession is a direct result of Obama policies. Businesses held their cards and cash close to their vest to ride out the socialist and anti business storm.

Posted by: Lancelot Link Secret Agent Chimp at July 31, 2018 05:06 PM (C5Lvr)

61 the View stated this was Obama's economy.

I almost threw the t.v.
Posted by: willow at July 31, 2018 04:59 PM (dPd5y)

My sister has a good friend (from childhood) who worships The View.

She just got fired from a State government job only 3-4 months before collecting a pension after 20 or so years. That hurts.

She pushed the leftist stuff too far. Always out of work for this or that. Sick mostly.

It was amazing she was fired. It was like left on left.

She did not understand why her "family" fired her and her coworkers stopped taking her calls or talking to her thereafter. She didn't understand why they didn't "care" enough to keep her no matter what she did.

So, of course she is suing.

Your View comment reminded me of this. This is who watches The View. So isolated from the real world.

Posted by: artisanal 'ette at July 31, 2018 05:07 PM (sdl8C)

62 I don't believe a single economic indicator released by the Obama regime. Economists said the actual GDP was negative or 0 indicating a depression, they said inflation was really between 15 and 20 percent, and unemployment was 15%.

IOW his economy was miserable, even worse than the Peanut years and when he monotized the debt for all the money he was spending on welfare for the inner cities the inflation took off, as his has for every single nation on earth that has monetized their debt.

Obama's administration worse liars than Saddam Husiens liars.

Posted by: Vic We Have No Party at July 31, 2018 05:07 PM (mpXpK)

63 "The Paul Ryan-Donald Trump growth agenda was targeted to revive that investment weakness."

Pretty sure they've mis-titled the growth agenda there. I'm thinking Trump should be primary - if not sole - author of that agenda. Ryan would be nothing w/o Trump steering, which is why he's on his way out.

Posted by: AnonyBotymousDrivel at July 31, 2018 05:07 PM (6eEQ+)

64 "CNN needs to loan JoeMika a clue card. They were literally chortling over PDT's claiming credit for the economy.
Posted by: Jane D'oh at July 31, 2018 04:55 PM (ptqGC)

I saw that. Scarborough looked like a jackass.
Posted by: JoeF. at July 31, 2018 04:57 PM (y8Foj)"

----------

I just can't get over how much Scarborough looks like Professor Bunsen's assistant Beaker from the Muppets Show.

Posted by: Decaf at July 31, 2018 05:08 PM (Mymqt)

65 56
I told you Trump was going to revive the economy.

Posted by: Glenn Beck!!! at July 31, 2018 05:06 PM (r9UYA)

I said it first!!!

Posted by: Paul Krugman at July 31, 2018 05:08 PM (t41dG)

66 49 Working on squaring circles. bbl.

Posted by: Rick Wilson at July 31, 2018 05:04 PM (r9UYA)

A square inside a circle can be done with a straightedge and a compass.

Posted by: rhennigantx at July 31, 2018 05:08 PM (JFO2v)

67 60
Trump might be benefiting from a delayed recovery of the 2008 recession.

Posted by: Grump928(c) at July 31, 2018 05:04 PM (yQpMk

The delayed recession is a direct result of Obama policies.
Businesses held their cards and cash close to their vest to ride out the
socialist and anti business storm.

Posted by: Lancelot Link Secret Agent Chimp at July 31, 2018 05:06 PM (C5Lvr)

Well, sure, there's the PLANNED result, and then there's this. I guess that makes Obama responsible in the same way that Napoleon was responsible for Wellingtons' victory at Waterloo.

Posted by: DamnedYankee at July 31, 2018 05:08 PM (37IEG)

68 This shit is reckless. Totally out of control. Somebody needs to put the brakes on this. People are choking on all these crumbs.

Posted by: Some old senile virago from Derpifornia with a face like a catcher's mitt at July 31, 2018 05:09 PM (AzW6q)

69 Im milking the soft power dividends.

Posted by: Derptastic at July 31, 2018 05:09 PM (DB16e)

70 For your viewing pleasure. JoeMika laff and laff over PDT's taking credit for the economy:

https://tinyurl.com/ycq7hz8r

Posted by: Jane D'oh at July 31, 2018 05:09 PM (ptqGC)

71 Putin hacked into several government agencies and changed those numbers to make Trump look good!!!

We want your crumbs back!!!

Posted by: ShainS at July 31, 2018 05:09 PM (12Yiz)

72 I will note they have not been able to use the tried and true increased homelessness gambit. So far.

Posted by: Lancelot Link Secret Agent Chimp at July 31, 2018 05:10 PM (C5Lvr)

73 >>>21 the View stated this was Obama's economy.

I almost threw the t.v.
Posted by: willow

...

It's a Cult.

Posted by: ace at July 31, 2018 05:10 PM (PA9oZ)

74 Just wait until I crush you economy.
Posted by: Justin Trudeu at July 31, 2018 04:56 PM (P/aDH)

With vats of poutine hurled over the border by trebuchet, no doubt.

Posted by: Basement Cat at July 31, 2018 05:10 PM (3C9q2)

75 Lizzy, I watched a video at cth with Gingrich and that group of nutsos Oh and that clapping seal audience.

I thought I will never click that crap again. But it did remind me how a large portion of the population Thinks they know what's going on, because they watch crap like that.

Posted by: willow at July 31, 2018 05:10 PM (dPd5y)

76 Too late for the global milding thread, but I'd be on some global milfing like an angry god.

Posted by: flounderbot, rebel, vulgarian, deplorabot, winner at July 31, 2018 05:10 PM (5jVnA)

77

Blown mind of the day for me is Mark Roberts tweet yesterday about Melania and then the follow ups doubling down.

I am sure this was covered but I'm out of the Ace loop for a while more (Great to see Ace tried sleeping pills!)

Every day the sickness gets worse on the left. Calling Melania a prostitute and "thinking dirty" of her. WTF is happening out there. This guy is a congressman.

and when people call him on it he says

Do you people not have jobs? Why is it every super trumper I know is armed w an #ObamaPhone and a welfare check?

This doesn't even make sense. Look how he attacks all of those Democrats with ObamaPhones. Geez. It's nice to get away from this for a while.

Posted by: artisanal 'ette at July 31, 2018 05:10 PM (sdl8C)

78 I was in Kollidge in the early 70's, and everywhere you turned, culturally, somebody was going on about the Bad Old 50's. Everybody had too much money, we all were fat (!) and sloppy and in poor taste, yada yada McCarthy.
Hey, I remembered the 50's. We were in the coal business--it wasn't the greatest decade ever. Also, there was a foreign war, the threat of a much bigger ("Land war in Asia") foreign war, a couple of scary-as-hell little recessions. Some good shit happened. We, here, were not rich. I used to argue that in classes, but it said so right in the text-y books. Like "The Greening of America" and "The Making of A Counter-Culture" which to you or me are not textbooks, but there you go.

Then came Reagan, after a decade of wholesome, reverential grinding stagflation. And what did we make of growth and prosperity for all? Selfishness! "The Me Decade." It was so damned decadent, having money to spend that was worth the same as it was last month. The idea that you could earn all that money and give it away to any just cause you liked didn't make it any less icky.

We're on this flight plan now. Any respite from "Bad Luck" has something wrong with it, and it's wrong in a secret, inner, ethical way.

Posted by: Stringer Davis at July 31, 2018 05:10 PM (8ZmvG)

79 ace, it truly is. truly is, They are so angry He can't be the always and forever prez.

Posted by: willow at July 31, 2018 05:11 PM (dPd5y)

80 Economic cycles! ECONOMIC CYCLES PEOPLE!!!

Posted by: Karl Rove's Stinking Shit Neck at July 31, 2018 05:11 PM (r9UYA)

81

Grill-Beer time!

Enjoy your evenings.

Posted by: artisanal 'ette at July 31, 2018 05:11 PM (sdl8C)

82 Moar Oil = Moar Black Swans

Posted by: Taleb's paintbrush at July 31, 2018 05:11 PM (FhXTo)

83 >>>68 This shit is reckless. Totally out of control. Somebody needs to put the brakes on this. People are choking on all these crumbs.
Posted by: Some old senile virago from Derpifornia with a face like a catcher's mitt at July 31, 2018 05:09 PM (AzW6q)

funny comment PLUS a good vocab word (virago). Thanks!

Posted by: ace at July 31, 2018 05:12 PM (PA9oZ)

84 and who in the hell goes to watch chat shows? I just don't get it.

Posted by: willow at July 31, 2018 05:12 PM (dPd5y)

85 Larry Summer's theory of "Secular Stagnation" reminds me a lot of the kind of clever story a college freshman would work to spin to his (hopefully for him) gullible parents, explaining why it would be very unrealistic of them to ever expect him to come back with any more than a 2.2 GPA.

Posted by: Tom Servo at July 31, 2018 05:12 PM (V2Yro)

86 It starts with having a President who loves his country more than the international community.

We have not had a president like that since Reagan.

Posted by: William Eaton at July 31, 2018 05:12 PM (MuTTO)

87 All right, you mutinous, disloyal, computerized half-breed! We'll see about you deserting my ship!

Posted by: Captain Billy Kristol at July 31, 2018 05:13 PM (Evws/)

88 58 I can't get excited about the economy when we're still racking up trillion dollar deficits year after year with no end in sight, and nobody is willing or able to put a stop to it. This will not end well.
Posted by: rickl at July 31, 2018 05:06 PM (xjiRE)

34 trillion and counting added to the FED balance sheet since 2009. Only 2 quarters of positive real GFP growth since 2000. 600 billion in yearly trade deficits. Over 95 million out of job force. A massive invasion of illegals the last 3 decades and counting.

What's not to love?

Posted by: 1st world problems yoga studio at July 31, 2018 05:13 PM (t82DG)

89 I actually was fond of the 'derpyfornia ' bit.

Posted by: willow at July 31, 2018 05:13 PM (dPd5y)

90 69
Im milking the soft power dividends.

Posted by: Derptastic at July 31, 2018 05:09 PM (DB16e)
I'm pretty sure you can't use the world MILK in that context any more. People might think soft power dividends really produce milk. We can't have that sort of confusion.

Posted by: Lieawatha Warren - princess of the Hekahwee at July 31, 2018 05:13 PM (37IEG)

91 Where I fault myself is that I spent too much time getting the policy right and not enough time communicating our successes.

Posted by: Low Information Ex-President at July 31, 2018 05:13 PM (9vQJW)

92 Occasional Kotex stroke our yet?

Posted by: Archer at July 31, 2018 05:13 PM (gmo/4)

93 funny comment PLUS a good vocab word (virago). Thanks!
Posted by: ace at July 31, 2018 05:12 PM (PA9oZ)

-----

Anytime!

Posted by: Yudhishthira's Dice at July 31, 2018 05:13 PM (AzW6q)

94 "the View stated this was Obama's economy."

------------

What they collectively know about economics wouldn't fill a thimble.

Posted by: Decaf at July 31, 2018 05:13 PM (Mymqt)

95 >>>54 The US went from 'quantitative easing' to 'QuanTITative Winning!'

Trump: #TitsAndWinning

Posted by: ace at July 31, 2018 05:13 PM (PA9oZ)

96 rickl I look at the debt now as something WQe get to pass onto all the illegals.

Posted by: willow at July 31, 2018 05:14 PM (dPd5y)

97 84
and who in the hell goes to watch chat shows? I just don't get it.

Posted by: willow at July 31, 2018 05:12 PM (dPd5y)
I can understand wanting to watch Oprah in studio - you might get a free car or something. But the View? Not even if you paid me.

Posted by: IC, now with extra super elite at July 31, 2018 05:14 PM (a0IVu)

98 * Most people make Straight Line Projections from the now into the future. They imagine the future will be just like now, except with different dates.
+++++++++++++++
Static analysis. Dynamic analysis is *really* hard (especially when you don't understand all the variables - which you don't in a massively multi-variant natural system like an economy), and it's way easier to assume "as it is, so it shall always be."

Posted by: Princess Leia at July 31, 2018 05:14 PM (I2dne)

99 I'll be honest - I only read the first paragraph. Is the movie any good?

Posted by: Cheri at July 31, 2018 05:14 PM (oiNtH)

100 We definitely need a controlled default on our debt. But even more, we need to stop adding to it.

Posted by: Grump928(c) at July 31, 2018 05:15 PM (yQpMk)

101 77 drop him a note
robertsforcd2@gmail.com

Posted by: rhennigantx at July 31, 2018 05:15 PM (JFO2v)

102 (PA9oZ)

Ace's new hash sounds like one of them kick-ass workout regimens like seen on TV.

Posted by: Pug Mahon, Possibly Confused at July 31, 2018 05:15 PM (xPJvm)

103 can't get excited about the economy when we're still racking up trillion dollar deficits year after year with no end in sight, and nobody is willing or able to put a stop to it. This will not end well.
Posted by: rickl at July 31, 2018 05:06 PM (xjiRE)

34 trillion and counting added to the FED balance sheet since 2009. Only 2 quarters of positive real GFP growth since 2000. 600 billion in yearly trade deficits. Over 95 million out of job force. A massive invasion of illegals the last 3 decades and counting.

What's not to love?
Posted by: 1st world problems yoga studio at July 31, 2018 05:13 PM (t82DG)

You guys are glass half empty types I guess

Posted by: Archer at July 31, 2018 05:15 PM (gmo/4)

104 >>>Static analysis. Dynamic analysis is *really* hard (especially when you don't understand all the variables - which you don't in a massively multi-variant natural system like an economy), and it's way easier to assume "as it is, so it shall always be."

right, and with a dash of Chaos Theory, I think. Small events can snowball into big ultimate effects.

Posted by: ace at July 31, 2018 05:15 PM (PA9oZ)

105 Off stupid Star Wars sock

Posted by: Joe Mannix (Not a cop!) at July 31, 2018 05:15 PM (I2dne)

106 IC, nope just couldn't do it, you never know what topic they will be pulling out and insulting the people in the audience

Posted by: willow at July 31, 2018 05:15 PM (dPd5y)

107 What they collectively know about economics wouldn't fill a thimble.

Posted by: Decaf at July 31, 2018 05:13 PM (Mymqt)
That much! Holy shit, here I was going to get the angstrom meter out to measure their depth of knowledge - I better scale it up!

Posted by: DamnedYankee at July 31, 2018 05:16 PM (37IEG)

108 My supervisor told me to pick up the pace last week.

I told him to fire me so I could make more money next week.

I'm still here, but he's not talking to me anymore.

AND THAT'S WHY DONNY GETS TWO SCOOPS!

Posted by: Oschisms at July 31, 2018 05:16 PM (RQ0J5)

109 right, and with a dash of Chaos Theory, I think. Small events can snowball into big ultimate effects.
Posted by: ace at July 31, 2018 05:15 PM (PA9oZ)
++++++++
This infamous "black swan" can be just that. Given that the Trump era is itself a black swan, I'd say just about anything is possible.

Posted by: Joe Mannix (Not a cop!) at July 31, 2018 05:16 PM (I2dne)

110 >>>Im milking the soft power dividends.

Posted by: Derptastic at July 31, 2018 05:09 PM (DB16e)

...

That was my job for years.

Posted by: Reggie the Presidential Stroke at July 31, 2018 05:16 PM (PA9oZ)

111 95 >>>54 The US went from 'quantitative easing' to 'QuanTITative Winning!'

Trump: #TitsAndWinning
Posted by: ace at July 31, 2018 05:13 PM (PA9oZ)

Speaking of tits, did you hear about the tragedy of the former porn star Mia Khalifa having one of her implants ruptured from getting hit with a hockey puck?

https://tinyurl.com/yaqh7bwc

Posted by: buzzion at July 31, 2018 05:16 PM (zRwJ/)

112 right, and with a dash of Chaos Theory, I think. Small events can snowball into big ultimate effects.

Yes, but mostly bad effects. Civilizational entropy is very real.

Posted by: Grump928(c) at July 31, 2018 05:16 PM (yQpMk)

113 Ace's new hash sounds like one of them kick-ass workout regimens like seen on TV.
Posted by: Pug Mahon, Possibly Confused at July 31, 2018 05:15 PM (xPJvm)

-----

GAINZZ!

Posted by: Yudhishthira's Dice at July 31, 2018 05:16 PM (AzW6q)

114 it seems unlikely that a sudden crisis is looming that could derail things before Americans head to the polls in midterm elections that will have a huge bearing on Trump's presidency

=

Mr. Mueller you're our only hope !

-CNN

Posted by: runner at July 31, 2018 05:16 PM (bUjCl)

115 It's been called The Viragos this entrie time?!?! Why would Whoopie and Rosie lie to the audience all these years?

Posted by: 1st world problems yoga studio at July 31, 2018 05:16 PM (t82DG)

116 >>>This infamous "black swan" can be just that. Given that the Trump era is itself a black swan, I'd say just about anything is possible.
Posted by: Joe Mannix (Not a cop!)

I had thought to make that point, about Trump being a Black Swan event that few foresaw. Because they were so busy making predictions based upon straight lines and contiguity in their graphs.

Posted by: ace at July 31, 2018 05:17 PM (PA9oZ)

117 "It's almost as if Trump is a shrewd businessman or something.

Or maybe it's just that he's the first President since Reagan who hasn't intentionally tanked the economy while giving away the farm to worthless third world leeches.
Posted by: cornbred at July 31, 2018 05:02 PM (CeJDJ)"

-----------

I could understand Clinton and Obama either wilfully giving away American business advantage or being too stupid to realise what went on but the Bushes knew and did it anyway.

Posted by: Decaf at July 31, 2018 05:17 PM (Mymqt)

118 PA9oZ)

Ace's new hash sounds like one of them kick-ass workout regimens like seen on TV.
Posted by: Pug Mahon, Possibly Confused at July 31, 2018 05:15 PM (xPJv

I'm waiting for someone to get a ( GAinZz) hash

Posted by: Lancelot Link Secret Agent Chimp at July 31, 2018 05:17 PM (C5Lvr)

119 I can understand wanting to watch Oprah in studio -
you might get a free car or something. But the View? Not even if you
paid me.

Posted by: IC, now with extra super elite at July 31, 2018 05:14 PM (a0IVu)
You get a humpback whale! and YOU get a humpback whale! And you get....

Posted by: Oprah Freeshit at July 31, 2018 05:17 PM (37IEG)

120 watch Oprah in studio - you might get a free ~~car~~Pontiac or something.

Posted by: Stringer Davis at July 31, 2018 05:18 PM (8ZmvG)

121 You get a humpback whale! and YOU get a humpback whale! And you get....

A Melon-headed Whale?!

Posted by: Grump928(c) at July 31, 2018 05:18 PM (yQpMk)

122 109 right, and with a dash of Chaos Theory, I think. Small events can snowball into big ultimate effects.
Posted by: ace at July 31, 2018 05:15 PM (PA9oZ)
++++++++
This infamous "black swan" can be just that. Given that the Trump era is itself a black swan, I'd say just about anything is possible.
Posted by: Joe Mannix (Not a cop!) at July 31, 2018 05:16 PM (I2dne)

Please let Trump order his Treasury Secretary ro seize the FED and get us back on the gold plus silver standard.

Posted by: 1st world problems yoga studio at July 31, 2018 05:18 PM (t82DG)

123 There is good change, bad change and shortchange.

Posted by: Headless Body of Agnew at July 31, 2018 05:18 PM (Zskvw)

124 100 We definitely need a controlled default on our debt . . .
Posted by: Grump928(c)
________

Don't worry. We've got this one.

Posted by: Socialism and Inflation at July 31, 2018 05:18 PM (9vQJW)

125 whats unnatural in an economy is taking for granted money just rolls in even if you've been smothering all business's with a pillow
(regulations, 2000 pages?) and that didn't include shutting everyone one doesn't like with osha/irs etc.

Posted by: willow at July 31, 2018 05:19 PM (dPd5y)

126 >>>Yes, but mostly bad effects. Civilizational entropy is very real.

I don't know about that. What kind of effect would the discovery of a gene treatment that added 40 years to the human lifespan have?

The future happens slowly enough that sometimes we don't notice how much has changed. Like a frog being slowly boiled in incremental change.

Who would have predicted the massive societal changes due to the internet? Some sci-fi writers and futurists, maybe. (But they would have gotten a lot wrong.)

Posted by: ace at July 31, 2018 05:19 PM (PA9oZ)

127 We *will* get a recession. We have had managed stagnation for some time, but the asset price reallocation that is going to happen as the Fed starts to - ever so slowly - become reasonable on capital pricing again will be disruptive.
Some pseudo-accurate bellwethers are starting to turn (classic cars and fine art). I don't think we get a recession this year (Jack's comment about the inventory draw-down is on-point, as are a number of other factors), but getting one in the next two years feels pretty likely to me when looking at the big picture.

I honestly hope it is by late '19, so we can be coming out of it by election time. A mid-'20 recession could be a political disaster.

Posted by: Joe Mannix (Not a cop!) at July 31, 2018 05:19 PM (I2dne)

128 I couldn't be in The View audience without hurling out one liners when the "ladies" act stupid. I'd make a scene and end up arrested.

Posted by: Cheri at July 31, 2018 05:19 PM (oiNtH)

129 doesn't-down

Posted by: willow at July 31, 2018 05:19 PM (dPd5y)

130 124
100 We definitely need a controlled default on our debt . . .

Posted by: Grump928(c)

Trust me, we've got it covered. You'll be hearing from our representatives.

Posted by: Gods of the Copybook Headings at July 31, 2018 05:20 PM (37IEG)

131 Speaking of tits, did you hear about the tragedy of the former porn star Mia Khalifa having one of her implants ruptured from getting hit with a hockey puck?

https://tinyurl.com/yaqh7bwc
Posted by: buzzion at July 31, 2018 05:16 PM (zRwJ/)

-----------

I am so, so going to hell for laughing at that. Thanks!

Posted by: Calm Mentor at July 31, 2018 05:20 PM (I16G8)

132 "Don't forget, Obama had that economic genius Austan Goolsby advising him.
Posted by: Jane D'oh at July 31, 2018 05:04 PM (ptqGC)"

-----------

Whenever I see his ugly mug on TV I just want to burst out laughing.

Posted by: Decaf at July 31, 2018 05:20 PM (Mymqt)

133 What kind of effect would the discovery of a gene treatment that added 40 years to the human lifespan have?

40 more years of SS?

Posted by: Grump928(c) at July 31, 2018 05:20 PM (yQpMk)

134 You guys are glass half empty types I guess
Posted by: Archer at July 31, 2018 05:15 PM (gmo/4)

Seize the FED. Smash Fractional Reserve Banking.

Posted by: 1st world problems yoga studio at July 31, 2018 05:20 PM (t82DG)

135 It's easier for things to decline that to rise.

Posted by: Grump928(c) at July 31, 2018 05:21 PM (yQpMk)

136 'those jobs ain't coming back'

Posted by: willow at July 31, 2018 05:21 PM (dPd5y)

137 21 the View stated this was Obama's economy.

I almost threw the t.v.
Posted by: willow

...

It's a Cult.

Posted by: ace
========
Exactly right.

Posted by: Q at July 31, 2018 05:21 PM (C6xeQ)

138 you might get a free Pontiac or something.

Cultural appropriation of the worst sort, to name a defunct GM make after a Native American/part Canadian Friend of Liz Warren.

Posted by: Basement Cat at July 31, 2018 05:21 PM (3C9q2)

139 136 'those jobs ain't coming back'
Posted by: willow at July 31, 2018 05:21 PM (dPd5y)

Robots.

Posted by: 1st world problems yoga studio at July 31, 2018 05:22 PM (t82DG)

140 Letting the Treasury Department run the dollar might be something good to try.

Posted by: Grump928(c) at July 31, 2018 05:22 PM (yQpMk)

141 Trust me, we've got it covered. You'll be hearing from our representatives.
Posted by: Gods of the Copybook Headings at July 31, 2018 05:20 PM (37IEG)
++++++++
Thank you. This is in my top 3 Kipling poems. Rounding out the top 3:
- Hymn of Breaking Strain
- The Message

Posted by: Joe Mannix (Not a cop!) at July 31, 2018 05:22 PM (I2dne)

142 131 Speaking of tits, did you hear about the tragedy of the former porn star Mia Khalifa having one of her implants ruptured from getting hit with a hockey puck?

https://tinyurl.com/yaqh7bwc
Posted by: buzzion at July 31, 2018 05:16 PM (zRwJ/)
-----------
I am so, so going to hell for laughing at that. Thanks!

Now I'm wondering if there was a loud "POP!" or more of a "whoooosh" and the sound of escaping air.

Posted by: Tom Servo at July 31, 2018 05:23 PM (V2Yro)

143 It may also be his best chance to argue that a huge and controversial tax cut...

----

Hey CNN, who made it "controversial"? Not gonna hold my breath waiting for a panel of "experts" to examine that.

Posted by: Hands at July 31, 2018 05:23 PM (EzdLW)

144 >>>Please let Trump order his Treasury Secretary ro seize the FED and get us back on the gold plus silver standard.
Posted by: 1st world problems yoga studi

I don't agree with either the gold or silver standard, but I'm not hardcore against the idea.

What I am definitely against is making BOTH the standard. The US tried this, and it was a disaster. Look it up -- it's very interesting.

For long periods in the 1850s through 1890s we had no silver in the US, because we set the value of silver to some fraction of the value of gold. When Silver became more highly valued in other parts of the world, almost all the silver in circulation in the US stopped circulating in the US and was moved to countries where it was valued a bit higher. For years and years the US government had to issue PAPER COIN MONEY, paper money in denominations of 25 cents or a dime, because they had no silver to mint.

Also, businesses had to invent their own private coins, "tokens" I think they were called, because they could not make change. So you would pay in paper dollars and they'd give you change in their own private "currency" which could only be spent at that establishment.

Posted by: ace at July 31, 2018 05:23 PM (PA9oZ)

145 Sure, trillion-a-year deficits are stupid and they suck.
Under the last regime, we were running those and still sinking.
So Trump is a better Keynesian socialist than they are, too!

Posted by: Stringer Davis at July 31, 2018 05:23 PM (8ZmvG)

146 I say we create rain and kill the robots.

Posted by: willow at July 31, 2018 05:23 PM (dPd5y)

147 Whenever I see his ugly mug on TV I just want to burst out laughing.
Posted by: Decaf at July 31, 2018 05:20 PM (Mymqt)

------------

Hannity has him on his radio show pretty regularly. He has a most punchable smarminess in their conversations.

Posted by: Calm Mentor at July 31, 2018 05:23 PM (I16G8)

148 140 Letting the Treasury Department run the dollar might be something good to try.
Posted by: Grump928(c) at July 31, 2018 05:22 PM (yQpMk)

That's the rumor that Trump wants to do. He is vocal against The FED.

Posted by: 1st world problems yoga studio at July 31, 2018 05:23 PM (t82DG)

149
If your officer's dead and the sergeants look white,
Remember it's ruin to run from a fight:
So take open order, lie down, and sit tight,
And wait for supports like a soldier.
Wait, wait, wait like a soldier . . .

When you're wounded and left on Afghanistan's plains,
And the women come out to cut up what remains,
Jest roll to your rifle and blow out your brains
An' go to your Gawd like a soldier.
Go, go, go like a soldier,
Go, go, go like a soldier,
Go, go, go like a soldier,
So-oldier of the Queen!

Posted by: Grump928(c) at July 31, 2018 05:24 PM (yQpMk)

150 My guess is real unfunded liabilities in is around $130 Trillion.

A some point the old people got to realize that SS and Medicare will need to change. My financial adviser told my wife and I that as we had done a good job saving and putting money back that our SS would be means tested and we will never get our money.

Posted by: rhennigantx at July 31, 2018 05:24 PM (JFO2v)

151 Sometimes when a raging bull elephant of a strong economy comes into the room you have to acknowledge its presence---or you look like an idiot.

Posted by: Comanche Voter at July 31, 2018 05:24 PM (Sda6L)

152 With the free market rush to solar power, silver is on track to regain large portions of its former value!

Posted by: Stringer Davis at July 31, 2018 05:25 PM (8ZmvG)

153 BHO Hussein BTFO again

Posted by: x at July 31, 2018 05:25 PM (nFwvY)

154 oh, the two coinage metal model is called "bimetallism" and Gresham's Law --

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gresham%27s_law --

says that you are pretty much guaranteed to lose all of one of the two metals, depending on which one is currently valued more highly on the world market.

Posted by: ace at July 31, 2018 05:25 PM (PA9oZ)

155 'those jobs ain't coming back'
Posted by: willow at July 31, 2018 05:21 PM (dPd5y)
+++++++
And they aren't, at least not precisely. As manufacturing returns, it will be more automated than ever. There are different things to do for now, but my hope - and if we (individuals writ large) are unshackled from the millstone of regulation and anti-competitive rules then it is possible - is that we figure out new things to do.
Depending on how you count, High Technology (my industry) was the 3rd or 4th industrial revolution. It is winding down and is now basically a normal, understood, expected part of our economy. That means we need to start figuring out what the next one will be. It is in our best interest to ensure that it happens *here* and not somewhere else.

Posted by: Joe Mannix (Not a cop!) at July 31, 2018 05:26 PM (I2dne)

156 Not supposed to be happening.

Posted by: Janet Yellen - FloBee Institute at July 31, 2018 05:26 PM (r9UYA)

157 Well, you at least gotta give black mother credit for creativity in naming their sons (who grow up to be criminals).

There was a kidnapping in the bad part of town in Berkeley, CA:

https://www.berkeleyside.com/2018/07/29/ 2-teens-shot-saturday-night-in-south-berkeley-kidnapping-also-reported

The cops eventually arrested all the criminals. Here are their names:

"The arrested men have been identified by police as

Rodquavious Mikeon Whitehurst, 20
Racal Jamikaco Thompson, 24
Jamikaco Tyrone Thompson, 27
Vacenta Rakey Rice, 27
Antravious Marquis Evans, 19"

Posted by: zombie at July 31, 2018 05:27 PM (c+2jX)

158 mother = mothers

Posted by: zombie at July 31, 2018 05:27 PM (c+2jX)

159 anyway it's possible another correction occurs, fed rates change etc, but what I haven't seen in a decade was people actually going back to better jobs, most I know fell off the pony right after the 2008 crash and are just now climbing back up.

Posted by: willow at July 31, 2018 05:27 PM (dPd5y)

160
I have accurately predicted over 15 times the last four recessions.

That's like 100%, right?

Posted by: Forgot My Nic - Economist at July 31, 2018 05:27 PM (LOgQ4)

161 I want to hug a flemish giant rabbit and feed it a celery stalk.

Posted by: Steve and Cold Bear at July 31, 2018 05:27 PM (/qEW2)

162 The Jack Lew interview, where he is trashing PDT and his economic plan and gets interrupted by breaking news that the EU has just agreed to this huge trade deal was comic gold.

Posted by: Ben Had at July 31, 2018 05:27 PM (p/8lK)

163 Posted by: ace at July 31, 2018 05:23 PM (PA9oZ)

It's not perfect, but fiat money always fails end ends in a disaster. In college I'd ask every professor why The FED's debt based system based on "confidence" is better than using anything that is tangible of value. I have yet to have anybody honestly explain to me why the current system is better than the old ways.

Posted by: 1st world problems yoga studio at July 31, 2018 05:27 PM (t82DG)

164 The US never had a lot of gold or silver until the California Gold Rush of 48 and the Comstock Lode in '59.

Posted by: Grump928(c) at July 31, 2018 05:27 PM (yQpMk)

165 that's a fkn Lost Decade!

Posted by: willow at July 31, 2018 05:27 PM (dPd5y)

166 61 the View stated this was Obama's economy.

I almost threw the t.v.
Posted by: willow at July 31, 2018 04:59 PM (dPd5y)

My sister has a good friend (from childhood) who worships The View.

She just got fired from a State government job only 3-4 months before collecting a pension after 20 or so years. That hurts.

She pushed the leftist stuff too far. Always out of work for this or that. Sick mostly.

It was amazing she was fired. It was like left on left.

She did not understand why her "family" fired her and her coworkers stopped taking her calls or talking to her thereafter. She didn't understand why they didn't "care" enough to keep her no matter what she did.

So, of course she is suing.

Your View comment reminded me of this. This is who watches The View. So isolated from the real world.
Posted by: artisanal 'ette at July 31, 2018 05:07 PM (sdl8C)

Good luck with that lawsuit because I'm sure they documented everything negative she did. Some slip and fall Avenatti level scum took her case maybe thinking they'd settle to make her go away; after all it isn't their money!

Posted by: Captain Hate at July 31, 2018 05:28 PM (7uW6r)

167 I never get tired of saying this:

1% of a $20 trillion economy is $200 billion. This is how much bigger the economy will be at 3% growth rather than 2%. At 4%, it is $400 billion. Each year.
With compounding, over eight years, our country will be $6.3 trillion richer, about $3.3 trillion more than under Obama 2% growth scheme.

At say a 30% tax, that is $1 trillion more in taxes every single year. That solves most of our budget problems, assuming we simply control the growth of spending going forward. It also means we will be spending far less on welfare disability, medicaid, etc. Which means all sorts of pet ideas of the left, from renewable energy to free college becomes remarkably more viable.

So, given all of that, why would ANY democrat not support more growth, or the policies that accelerate growth?

Posted by: Dean Wormer at July 31, 2018 05:28 PM (ABH6n)

168 getting hit with a hockey puck

I don't suppose there's some way to get that hockey player to take aim at the upper trouser areas of Comey, Mueller, Schumer, or Strzok?

Posted by: Basement Cat at July 31, 2018 05:28 PM (3C9q2)

169 what I enjoyed yesterday -last night / was Business insider housing market guesstimates, one said on noooes! the other stated looking good and such.

lol

Posted by: willow at July 31, 2018 05:29 PM (dPd5y)

170 I have yet to have anybody honestly explain to me why the current system is better than the old ways.

In theory, it allows for the rate of money creation to keep up with productivity gains better than waiting for another gold mine to be discovered.

Posted by: Grump928(c) at July 31, 2018 05:29 PM (yQpMk)

171 Just found out that "Red" Ron Dellums assumed room temperature the other day....

Posted by: JoeF. at July 31, 2018 05:29 PM (y8Foj)

172 I can't believe that ace still reads Hot Air. I do check it out on rare occasion, but just to get some insight into what the Vox/Slate crowd is thinking.

Posted by: gm at July 31, 2018 05:30 PM (/LIOp)

173 artisanal, yes they 'believe' and that's good enuff.

Posted by: willow at July 31, 2018 05:30 PM (dPd5y)

174 So, given all of that, why would ANY democrat not support more growth, or the policies that accelerate growth?
=====
because all of their policies, arguments and values are pretexts?

Posted by: simplemind at July 31, 2018 05:30 PM (2rxHP)

175 171 Just found out that "Red" Ron Dellums assumed room temperature the other day....
Posted by: JoeF.

Yep. Wahoo!

I did my "Another Commie Bites the Dust" dance in celebration.

Posted by: zombie at July 31, 2018 05:30 PM (c+2jX)

176 I can't get excited about the economy when we're still racking up trillion dollar deficits year after year with no end in sight, and nobody is willing or able to put a stop to it. This will not end well.

Posted by: rickl at July 31, 2018 05:06 PM (xjiRE)
...............

Can I interest you in a $32 trillion over 10 year single payer health care plan?

Posted by: Bernie Snausages at July 31, 2018 05:30 PM (HgMAr)

177 Posted by: zombie at July 31, 2018 05:27 PM (c+2jX)
------------------
I guess if I had to go through life with a name I couldn't spell I'd be angry all the time too.

Posted by: cornbred at July 31, 2018 05:30 PM (CeJDJ)

178 In a weird way, I don't think the economy is the "main" issue like it used to be in election contests.

If this was the same electorate that we had in 1984, Trump would already be on his way to a landslide.

But the fact that Obama got releected with the economy in the shitter shows me that voters are able to create whatever narrative they want and look at other issues.

Posted by: Jolly Roger at July 31, 2018 05:30 PM (UfkIY)

179 you have to work really hard to get fired from Uncle sam.

Posted by: willow at July 31, 2018 05:31 PM (dPd5y)

180 Just found out that "Red" Ron Dellums assumed room temperature the other day....

Sit on the bank of the river long enough and the bodies of all your enemies will come floating by.

Posted by: Grump928(c) at July 31, 2018 05:31 PM (yQpMk)

181 Trump is a gold bug. I threw in silver because it has actual value. But I agree things get more complicated when you base a currency on more than one tangible object of value. The basket of goods theory claims it will be more stable, but I don't know.

I don't know.

Posted by: 1st world problems yoga studio at July 31, 2018 05:31 PM (t82DG)

182 160
I have accurately predicted over 15 times the last four recessions.

That's like 100%, right?
Posted by: Forgot My Nic - Economist

hello Ravi Batra

Posted by: x at July 31, 2018 05:31 PM (nFwvY)

183 I truly believe Obama and his administration were trying to financially wreck us. sell us out for 'global friends'

Posted by: willow at July 31, 2018 05:32 PM (dPd5y)

184 Only the Democrats can save us from this economic growth!

Posted by: Max Boot at July 31, 2018 05:32 PM (EzdLW)

185 150 A some point the old people got to realize that SS
and Medicare will need to change. My financial adviser told my wife and
I that as we had done a good job saving and putting money back that our
SS would be means tested and we will never get our money.

Posted by: rhennigantx at July 31, 2018 05:24 PM (JFO2v)

SS is already means tested in that over a certain amount of income you have to give back a chunk of it to the government in taxes.

Posted by: Vic We Have No Party at July 31, 2018 05:32 PM (mpXpK)

186 177 Posted by: zombie at July 31, 2018 05:27 PM (c+2jX)
------------------
I guess if I had to go through life with a name I couldn't spell I'd be angry all the time too.
Posted by: cornbred

I particularly like "Antravious." It's only a matter of time before someone names their kid "retrovirus."

Posted by: zombie at July 31, 2018 05:32 PM (c+2jX)

187 Tangible assets are finite

Debt is "to Infinity and Beyond"

Posted by: Ben Had at July 31, 2018 05:32 PM (p/8lK)

188 Jolly, Obama wasn't successful at the economy because Boosh!

Posted by: willow at July 31, 2018 05:33 PM (dPd5y)

189 >>>It's not perfect, but fiat money always fails end ends in a disaster.

I am specifically saying that bimetallism, two coinage metals set at an arbitrary value as against the other, is a disaster. Single-metal-backed money is not as much of a disaster.

If you lowball silver as against gold, your country will soon have no silver and thus no convenient coinage to trade in.

If you lowball gold as against silver, your country will soon have no gold.

You could, theoretically, change the value of silver to gold every single day (or multiple times per day) such that, depending on the relative rarity of one or the other, a gold dollar might be worth 112 silver cents or 89 silver cents, and they'd fluctuate daily against each other, but then you can't have the idea of a dollar equalling 100 cents, and you'd have to see moneychangers to convert between one and the other.

otherwise, either silver or gold will flee the country.

Posted by: ace at July 31, 2018 05:33 PM (PA9oZ)

190 I truly believe Obama and his administration were trying to financially wreck us. sell us out for 'global friends'
=====
We were in the middle of the biggest "bust out" operation in history.

Watch season three of Fargo.

Posted by: simplemind at July 31, 2018 05:33 PM (2rxHP)

191 "Pretty sure they've mis-titled the growth agenda there. I'm thinking Trump should be primary - if not sole - author of that agenda. Ryan would be nothing w/o Trump steering, which is why he's on his way out."

----------

Ryan is the ball on a chain dragging it all down.

Posted by: Decaf at July 31, 2018 05:33 PM (Mymqt)

192 Don't know how accurate the polls are but apparently it is not the economy that is the most pressing issue for voters, it is immigration.

Posted by: IC, now with extra super elite at July 31, 2018 05:33 PM (a0IVu)

193 There's a little apples-to-oranges here, because CNN was downplaying the possibility of 4%+ yearly growth

Correction, Ace: it's an apples-to-BANANAS comparison.

Posted by: This is CNN at July 31, 2018 05:33 PM (EzdLW)

194 Please let Trump order his Treasury Secretary ro seize the FED and get us back on the gold plus silver standard.
Posted by: 1st world problems yoga studio at July 31, 2018 05:18 PM (t82DG)

Gold and Silver are commodities. May as well do an oil standard? Or coal?
And neither solves the BIG 3 problems. SS, Medicare, and Medicaid deficit spending. W tried to sit down and talk about SS like an adult in 2004 and 5 and was crucified. Under 35 need to be dropped tomorrow. 35 to 45 bought out at 50% or so.45 to 55 about 70%. Stop all COLA.

Posted by: rhennigantx at July 31, 2018 05:34 PM (JFO2v)

195 Rodquavious Mikeon Whitehurst, 20
Racal Jamikaco Thompson, 24
Jamikaco Tyrone Thompson, 27
Vacenta Rakey Rice, 27
Antravious Marquis Evans, 19"
Posted by: zombie at July 31, 2018 05:27 PM (c+2jX)

Why do they do this with the names? I haven't gotten a good explanation yet. Is it just a game of "can you top this?"
At least "Rodquavious" is worth about 300 points in Scrabble....

Posted by: JoeF. at July 31, 2018 05:34 PM (y8Foj)

196 So, given all of that, why would ANY democrat not support more growth, or the policies that accelerate growth?
Posted by: Dean Wormer at July 31, 2018 05:28 PM (ABH6n)

----------

The JEF came right out and said it to Joe the Plumber. The Left see it as a fairness issue, and higher economic growth does not spread the wealth around to the right people.

Posted by: Calm Mentor at July 31, 2018 05:34 PM (I16G8)

197 particularly like "Antravious
=======
Is there a St. Antravious from maybe the Eastern Orthodox tradition we are overlooking?

Posted by: simplemind at July 31, 2018 05:34 PM (IO7XP)

198 oh and of course neither silver or gold is fixed in price, especially as against each other, because new mines are found all the time, thus reducing the rarity of one gold or the other, and one metal or the other becomes more demanded for ornamentary or industrial use (gold now being a useful metal in industry and electronics). Thus their true values against each other are ALWAYS changing.

Posted by: ace at July 31, 2018 05:34 PM (PA9oZ)

199 161 I want to hug a flemish giant rabbit and feed it a celery stalk.

not gonna check urbandictionary. wouldn't be prudent.

Posted by: Anachronda at July 31, 2018 05:34 PM (xGZ+b)

200 "It starts with having a President who loves his country more than the international community.

We have not had a president like that since Reagan.
Posted by: William Eaton at July 31, 2018 05:12 PM (MuTTO)"

-----------

Something that was an absolute given is now s luxury. Politics is certainly not evolving but devolving.

Posted by: Decaf at July 31, 2018 05:35 PM (Mymqt)

201 have yet to have anybody honestly explain to me why the current system is better than the old ways.

In theory, it allows for the rate of money creation to keep up with productivity gains better than waiting for another gold mine to be discovered.
Posted by: Grump928(c) at July 31, 2018 05:29 PM (yQpMk)

I always understood that with one you get more recessions but less severe and the other, less recessions but potentially more severe.

Posted by: Lancelot Link Secret Agent Chimp at July 31, 2018 05:35 PM (C5Lvr)

202 It's not perfect, but fiat money always fails end ends in a disaster. In college I'd ask every professor why The FED's debt based system based on "confidence" is better than using anything that is tangible of value. I have yet to have anybody honestly explain to me why the current system is better than the old ways.

Perhaps something like intransigence clouded your ability to listen.

Gold has tangible value. It doesn't rust, it's a universal conductor, and it's shiny in a way that girls like to wear on their bodies. What makes that a basis for a currency?

Gold is as arbitrary as macademia nuts, although the nuts can be grown. Gold lives underground in horrible places like Russia and South Africa. Who wants to base a currrency on that? Oil grows under horrible places, too, but at least oil is useful.

"Fiat currency", that whorey old shibboleth, is based on the promise of value to be delivered. US debt is backed by the full faith and credit of the US government, which is to say by the ability to tax the US economy. The dollar is backed by the world's credence in the productive might of the US.

A currency based on a commodity is subject to whims of commodity pricing. Everything about the idea is wrong.

Posted by: Bandersnatch at July 31, 2018 05:35 PM (fuK7c)

203 The 2012 election was when the MFM passed the retard point of no return. That Willard Romney was afraid to confront them on their lies and bullshit is a major reason why we have DJT

Posted by: Captain Hate at July 31, 2018 05:35 PM (7uW6r)

204 "You're a better man than I a Gunga Din".

"Will never get rid of the Dane".

"And every time single one of them is right". (In the Neolithic Age)

Sgt. Whatsisname.

Posted by: Lurking Cynic at July 31, 2018 05:35 PM (YBMcf)

205 170 I have yet to have anybody honestly explain to me why the current system is better than the old ways.

In theory, it allows for the rate of money creation to keep up with productivity gains better than waiting for another gold mine to be discovered.
Posted by: Grump928(c) at July 31, 2018 05:29 PM (yQpMk)

In theory. But we have over 100 years of observable history and data that says it's destroys the value of your currency and allows countries to get destroyed by massive debt.

I think people hold onto The FED in the same way communists hold onto communism promising the next time they will get it right.

Posted by: 1st world problems yoga studio at July 31, 2018 05:35 PM (t82DG)

206 196 So, given all of that, why would ANY democrat not support more growth, or the policies that accelerate growth?
Posted by: Dean Wormer at July 31, 2018 05:28 PM (ABH6n)

----------

The JEF came right out and said it to Joe the Plumber. The Left see it as a fairness issue, and higher economic growth does not spread the wealth around to the right people.
Posted by: Calm Mentor at July 31, 2018 05:34 PM (I16G

Higher economic growth for individuals means more freedom for individuals and conversely less government control.

Posted by: J.J. Sefton at July 31, 2018 05:35 PM (G4W16)

207 >>Ryan is the ball on a chain dragging it all down.

If you really hate someone that is drowning you throw them a Ryan.

Posted by: Under Fire at July 31, 2018 05:35 PM (r9UYA)

208 simplemind, I believed that because they totally ignored unemployed, totally ignored lost homes,futures , telling Us to Like it! while sending in illegals to take the least of the work everyone ended up trying to get.
If anyone complained they would shout you down for not liking Obama because __!

Posted by: willow at July 31, 2018 05:35 PM (dPd5y)

209 I particularly like "Antravious." It's only a matter of time before someone names their kid "retrovirus."
Posted by: zombie at July 31, 2018 05:32 P

I remember Elvira, Mistress of the Dark, having an Auntie Virus on her show.

Posted by: Hands at July 31, 2018 05:36 PM (EzdLW)

210 Jolly, Obama wasn't successful at the economy because Boosh!
Posted by: willow at July 31, 2018 05:33 PM (dPd5y)

Wait a minute. For EIGHT years they gave Obama credit for averting a catastrophic economic meltdown.....

Posted by: JoeF. at July 31, 2018 05:36 PM (y8Foj)

211
Higher economic growth for individuals means more freedom for individuals and conversely less government control.

Posted by: J.J. Sefton at July 31, 2018 05:35 PM (G4W16)

And ironically the lower taxes are the more jobs are created and hence, more taxpayers paying in to the government and higher revenue.

But, socialism.

Posted by: J.J. Sefton at July 31, 2018 05:36 PM (G4W16)

212 sheesh -. "every single one of them is right'.

Where'd 'time' come from?

Posted by: Lurking Cynic at July 31, 2018 05:37 PM (YBMcf)

213 If you lowball silver as against gold, your country will soon have no silver and thus no convenient coinage to trade in.

If you lowball gold as against silver, your country will soon have no gold. "

YOU SHALL NOT PRESS DOWN UPON THE BROW OF LABOR THIS CROWN OF THORNS!!! YOU SHALL NOT CRUCIFY MANKIND ON A CROSS OF GOLD!!!

Posted by: William Jennings Bryan at July 31, 2018 05:37 PM (V2Yro)

214 fargo isn't on Netflix, i'll look somewhere else I guess.

Posted by: willow at July 31, 2018 05:38 PM (dPd5y)

215 In theory. But we have over 100 years of observable history and data that says it's destroys the value of your currency and allows countries to get destroyed by massive debt.

I was just honestly explaining it to you. We had crashes and panics aplenty before the FED. We even had debasement of currency. All things decline no matter what the intentions.

Posted by: Grump928(c) at July 31, 2018 05:38 PM (yQpMk)

216 So what do we call Trump's economic plan - Collusion economics?

Posted by: DamnedYankee

MAGANOMICS

Posted by: Braenyard at July 31, 2018 05:38 PM (E3678)

217 Joe, don't expect it to make sense.
(rubs your forehead for you)

Posted by: willow at July 31, 2018 05:38 PM (dPd5y)

218 163 Posted by: ace at July 31, 2018 05:23 PM (PA9oZ) "It's not perfect, but fiat money always fails end ends in a disaster. In college I'd ask every professor why The FED's debt based system based on "confidence" is better than using anything that is tangible of value. I have yet to have anybody honestly explain to me why the current system is better than the old ways."

I can explain it.

Money based on tangible assets has an inherent problem - you need tangible assets. It used to be you could not privately mine and own gold - it had to be sold to the government. because the gold allowed the government to expand the money supply. That is where Ft Knox came it - to hold that giant mountain of gold.

As the economy grew, the mound of gold grew. This was why in there was so much desperation to get more gold during the 1880s - to grow the money supply. There were entire political movements and parties centered around using gold, or substituting silver, or what not, trying to get the money supply to keep pace with the growing economy.

Over time, out of necessity, the government began severing the connection between gold, silver and money. It wasn't till Nixon that the last string was cut.

Posted by: Dean Wormer at July 31, 2018 05:39 PM (ABH6n)

219 Any mention of President Trump being also the reason for CNN's ratings fall?
( other than them shooting themselves in the foot of course)

Posted by: Skip at July 31, 2018 05:39 PM (pHfeF)

220 Video of folks booing Acosta at the Trump rally makes my heart happy. @redstate watcher

Posted by: IC, now with extra super elite at July 31, 2018 05:39 PM (a0IVu)

221 A currency based on a commodity is subject to whims of commodity pricing. Everything about the idea is wrong.
Posted by: Bandersnatch at July 31, 2018 05:35 PM (fuK7c)

How has debt based fiat currencies worked out the last 100 years? Again, The pro FED group is no different than the communists thinking their theory will work despite 100 years of evidence to the contrary.

The dollar pretty much held its value until The FED and the our country had little to no debt. Now it's 98% gone and we have exponential growth in debt that we can't exacpe or print our way out of.

Therefore, Robots.

Posted by: 1st world problems yoga studio at July 31, 2018 05:39 PM (t82DG)

222 Are you bimetallic or just glad to see me?

Posted by: pon raul at July 31, 2018 05:39 PM (Evws/)

223 I meant neither gold or silver was fixed in TRUE VALUE as against the other. Of course they can arbitrarily, by GOVERNMENT FIAT, set in price against each other.

Which is what leads to gresham's law, bad money driving out the good.

I think the problem in the 1800s was that government set, by ARBITRARY FIAT, the value of silver as something like one fifteenth of the price of gold. But as time moved on silver became more value, its true world market value becomeing something like one twelth of the value of gold.

But the arbitrary fiat interchange rate was not changed, so all the silver was moved to places like Hong Kong, where people could get the right value for silver.

Leaving America with no silver for small purchases, and requiring the government to do precisely what the coin money proponents hate, printing PAPER FIAT MONEY in 25 cent, 10 cent, and even penny denominations to give people SOMETHING to trade with.

Posted by: ace at July 31, 2018 05:40 PM (PA9oZ)

224 We do not need to go back to a gold or silver standard to have a strong currency. We just need to quit spending a trillion dollars more than we are taking in and borrowing to monetize the debt.

we need to absolutely kill some of the wasteful welfare programs. People talk about cutting SS but that has been "fixed" three times and every time they "fix it" the politicians up the spending. When Bush 1 agreed to compromise and approve a tax increase to reduce the deficit the Democrats turned around and increased spending even more than the existing deficits. And all for welfare programs that are a hole in the ground to absorb money.

Posted by: Vic We Have No Party at July 31, 2018 05:40 PM (mpXpK)

225 202 It's not perfect, but fiat money always fails end ends in a disaster. In college I'd ask every professor why The FED's debt based system based on "confidence" is better than using anything that is tangible of value. I have yet to have anybody honestly explain to me why the current system is better than the old ways. "

The sad truth, the "man behind the curtain" who you should pay no attention to, is that in fact every system ever devised always ends in disaster sooner or later. There's no escaping it.

Posted by: Tom Servo at July 31, 2018 05:40 PM (V2Yro)

226 I do see in construction there is a big uplift in volume, commercial at least.

Posted by: Skip at July 31, 2018 05:40 PM (pHfeF)

227 As the economy grew, the mound of gold grew. This was why in there was so much desperation to get more gold during the 1880s - to grow the money supply. There were entire political movements and parties centered around using gold, or substituting silver, or what not, trying to get the money supply to keep pace with the growing economy.

Over time, out of necessity, the government began severing the connection between gold, silver and money. It wasn't till Nixon that the last string was cut.
======
Okay when do we get to talk about the FED?

Posted by: Ron Paul at July 31, 2018 05:40 PM (e8+h1)

228 Grump928 is right; you have a central bank to try and moderate some of the wilder swings of the free market.

Posted by: Captain Hate at July 31, 2018 05:41 PM (y7DUB)

229 How has debt based fiat currencies worked out the last 100 years? Again, The pro FED group is no different than the communists thinking their theory will work despite 100 years of evidence to the contrary.

The dollar pretty much held its value until The FED and the our country had little to no debt. Now it's 98% gone and we have exponential growth in debt that we can't exacpe or print our way out of.

Therefore, Robots.
Posted by: 1st world problems yoga studio at July 31, 2018 05:39 PM (t82DG)

you are not listening - our the currency is not based on debt.

Posted by: runner at July 31, 2018 05:41 PM (bUjCl)

230
SS is already means tested in that over a certain amount of income you have to give back a chunk of it to the government in taxes.

Posted by: Vic We Have No Party at July 31, 2018 05:32 PM

True that. You have to start giving it back at a level that would otherwise have the government giving YOU more money because you're falling into poverty level.

Make too much money and your SS check disappears completely.

So many misconceptions about SS.

Like misconceptions about Medicare. I'm looking into it now. Thought after fifty years of paying in it would be free.

* record scratch *

Totally wrong.

Some get it for free, no doubt. Free for thee, but not for me.

Posted by: Forgot My Nic - Economist at July 31, 2018 05:41 PM (LOgQ4)

231 So this is the 8% of positive Trump coverage, then.

Enough.

Back to the slander.

Posted by: CNN at July 31, 2018 05:42 PM (UsCnO)

232 I can see how one ties inflation to fiat currency but I'm not seeing how you tie debt to it. At least, not inherently.

The Federal Reserve system was created in, what, 1913?

These astronomical debts are relatively new.

Posted by: Grump928(c) at July 31, 2018 05:42 PM (yQpMk)

233 I get 4.6% growth on Friday nights before a few beers....

Posted by: saf at July 31, 2018 05:42 PM (5IHGB)

234 You'd think that Fiat Money would finally be off the table, now that Sergio Marchionne has been wheeled off to the great recall garage in the sky.

Posted by: Stringer Davis at July 31, 2018 05:42 PM (8ZmvG)

235

It reminds me of the idea that any particle exists in a blend of all
possible quantum states. The straight line projection is kind of like
that blend of all possible future states.

But like the superposition of quantum states, they do not remain in that
blended state of all bad and good possibilities. The moment a quantum
state is measured -- or, in my analogy, the moment the future actually
arrives -- the quantum superposition collapses into an unambiguous and
binary Up or Down position.

This seems like a movie. Ace oversleeps, and wakes up as an expert on quantum mechanics. What's next, Tom Hanks gets laid?

Posted by: pep at July 31, 2018 05:42 PM (T6t7i)

236 also, all metal-backed-money regimes have to pass onerous, anti-freedom laws which make it a crime to hoard valuable coinage metals or melt them down or move them out of the country, to avoid just these sorts of money-fleeing-the-country effects.

Thus you have dozens of laws, vigorously enforced, preventing people from doing with their money what they wish to do, and having the Secret Service investigate people for "smuggling" their own money to Hong Kong.

Posted by: ace at July 31, 2018 05:42 PM (PA9oZ)

237 Over time, out of necessity, the government began severing the connection between gold, silver and money. It wasn't till Nixon that the last string was cut.

Posted by: Dean Wormer at July 31, 2018 05:39 PM (ABH6n)

Yes, but how does one place a number on "confidence".? Why has the value of the dollar been destroyed since this system was put into place? Why are we so much in debt now that the new system was put into place? Doesn't that all cause instability and create conditions that cannot be maintained with artificial bubbles and bursting bubbles?

Posted by: 1st world problems yoga studio at July 31, 2018 05:43 PM (t82DG)

238 Over time, out of necessity, the government began severing the connection between gold, silver and money. It wasn't till Nixon that the last string was cut.

Posted by: Dean Wormer

I still remember combing through change, looking for old 1965-69 Kennedy half dollars. Each time one was discovered, it felt like hitting the jackpot!

Posted by: zombie at July 31, 2018 05:43 PM (c+2jX)

239
150 My guess is real unfunded liabilities in is around $130 Trillion.

A some point the old people got to realize that SS and Medicare will need to change. My financial adviser told my wife and I that as we had done a good job saving and putting money back that our SS would be means tested and we will never get our money.
Posted by: rhennigantx at July 31, 2018 05:24 PM (JFO2v)

There is a facility in Maryland that is fine tuning the Avian flu for old people. Look for 'Mysterious Malady Strikes Pigeon Feeders' news stories. If the government offers a free canary for a comfort animal, refuse it.

Posted by: Headless Body of Agnew at July 31, 2018 05:43 PM (Zskvw)

240 Debt is debt. It devalues the dollar, but there are other factors. Dollar goes up and down.

Posted by: runner at July 31, 2018 05:43 PM (bUjCl)

241 Higher economic growth for individuals means more freedom for individuals and conversely less government control.

Posted by: J.J. Sefton at July

This. Every facility I visit in the event I need to move dad, they say Medicaid will pay for it. I always tell them if medicare and his supplemental wont pay for it, I will pay cash.

Why does everyone insist on getting government involved with everything? Pisses me off.

Posted by: Infidel at July 31, 2018 05:44 PM (SUiUz)

242 Grump928 is right; you have a central bank to try and moderate some of the wilder swings of the free market.

I didn't say that. I said that, in theory, fiat currency allows you to avoid both inflation and deflation by keeping the amount of money in line with goods and services.

I guess that could help to prevent wild swings but that isn't it's purpose, as I understand it.

Posted by: Grump928(c) at July 31, 2018 05:44 PM (yQpMk)

243 And ironically the lower taxes are the more jobs are created and hence, more taxpayers paying in to the government and higher revenue.

But, socialism.
Posted by: J.J. Sefton at July 31, 2018 05:36 PM (G4W16)

-------------

The Left saw this under Reagan, and did NOT care for it. As you point out, more individual freedoms for people decreases the Left's ability to get their desired outcomes.

Posted by: Calm Mentor at July 31, 2018 05:44 PM (I16G8)

244 I have a friend that lives across a small valley where the train tracks are. In 2008 he said that he noticed that there were one or two freight trains a day. If had been more aware he would have shorted the market. Asked him the other day what the freight trains were up to and he said 7-8 a day. The economy even in the PRoC is doing very well.

Posted by: Jukin the Deplorable and Profoundly Unserious at July 31, 2018 05:44 PM (pw+jk)

245 232 I can see how one ties inflation to fiat currency but I'm not seeing how you tie debt to it. At least, not inherently.

The Federal Reserve system was created in, what, 1913?

These astronomical debts are relatively new.
Posted by: Grump928(c) at July 31, 2018 05:42 PM (yQpMk)

The dollar has the purchasing power of 1% of what it did in 1913. That's not good unless you are the one with the power to print and coin and loan money.

Posted by: 1st world problems yoga studio at July 31, 2018 05:44 PM (t82DG)

246 Therefore, Robots.

You mentioned earlier that you are ridiculously young. That must explain your incoherence.

Seriously, make an argument based on economics. Use a data point or two.

Posted by: Bandersnatch at July 31, 2018 05:44 PM (fuK7c)

247 it's fun -- look up images of one cent "bills" the government printed. They're small, like the size of carnival tickets.

Posted by: ace at July 31, 2018 05:45 PM (PA9oZ)

248 "I can't believe that ace still reads Hot Air. I do check it out on rare occasion, but just to get some insight into what the Vox/Slate crowd is thinking.
Posted by: gm at July 31, 2018 05:30 PM (/LIOp)"

----------

He does it so that we don't have to.

Posted by: Decaf at July 31, 2018 05:45 PM (Mymqt)

249 @225 That's good. I mean, IT'S FUNNY BECAUSE

"The man behind the curtain" is from this little book that was a parody of the economic-theory debates of the 1890's! The abbreviation for an ounce of precious metal is...
OZ.

Posted by: Stringer Davis at July 31, 2018 05:46 PM (8ZmvG)

250 The value of any currency (that is not backed by a commodity one for one) is based on what it can buy. That is why during inflationary period the currence is devalued.

Posted by: runner at July 31, 2018 05:46 PM (bUjCl)

251 >>>This seems like a movie. Ace oversleeps, and wakes up as an expert on quantum mechanics. What's next, Tom Hanks gets laid?

not an expert. I didn't oversleep too much, I just woke up in the middle of the night and couldn't sleep for a couple of hours and I had to take a trazadone to fall back asleep.

Posted by: ace at July 31, 2018 05:46 PM (PA9oZ)

252 currency...

Posted by: runner at July 31, 2018 05:47 PM (bUjCl)

253 Gah. We can't kick the can down the road. Everything gets exponentially worse. It's like Moore's law for except in reverse for counting down to the Burning Times.

Posted by: 1st world problems yoga studio at July 31, 2018 05:47 PM (t82DG)

254 FICA deductions should go into the FICA account and not the General Fund. You can thank LBJ for that.

Posted by: Braenyard at July 31, 2018 05:47 PM (E3678)

255 The dollar has the purchasing power of 1% of what it did in 1913. That's not good unless you are the one with the power to print and coin and loan money.
Posted by: 1st world problems yoga studio at July 31, 2018 05:44 PM (t82DG)

1% purchasing power? Everyone live in a mansion in 1913?

Posted by: Lancelot Link Secret Agent Chimp at July 31, 2018 05:47 PM (C5Lvr)

256 SS is already means tested in that over a certain amount of income
you have to give back a chunk of it to the government in taxes.

Posted by: Vic We Have No Party at July 31, 2018 05:32 PM

====
Which sucks because you pay 1/2 tax on that money taken out of your paycheck. Employers and self employed take the other 1/2 off their taxes.

Posted by: Jukin the Deplorable and Profoundly Unserious at July 31, 2018 05:47 PM (pw+jk)

257 224 We do not need to go back to a gold or silver standard to have a strong currency. We just need to quit spending a trillion dollars more than we are taking in and borrowing to monetize the debt.

we need to absolutely kill some of the wasteful welfare programs. People talk about cutting SS but that has been "fixed" three times and every time they "fix it" the politicians up the spending. When Bush 1 agreed to compromise and approve a tax increase to reduce the deficit the Democrats turned around and increased spending even more than the existing deficits. And all for welfare programs that are a hole in the ground to absorb money.
Posted by: Vic We Have No Party at July 31, 2018 05:40 PM (mpXpK)

-------------

There's a solution, but I don't really want to get banned for sharing it. There should be a consequence for these rat-bastard CongressCritters who spend other people's money like crack-addled shopaholics at fingerhut.

Posted by: cornbred at July 31, 2018 05:47 PM (CeJDJ)

258 "Don't know how accurate the polls are but apparently it is not the economy that is the most pressing issue for voters, it is immigration.
Posted by: IC, now with extra super elite at July 31, 2018 05:33 PM (a0IVu)"

------------

It's one and the same. 20 to 40 million extra people in your country will affect your economy.

Posted by: Decaf at July 31, 2018 05:47 PM (Mymqt)

259 you are not listening - our the currency is not based on debt.
=====
our currency value is based upon the government's ability to tax our economy.

Not just by increasing marginal tax rates, but by being able to collect from a healthy economy. Massive structural debt, federal spending are constraints on the economy. They effect GDP. Tax take money out of consumer hands and put it into non productive government hands to whatever. Debt has real negative effects on productivity.
Don't be too quick to criticize someone who instinctively grasps the problem but doesn't state it exactly right.

Posted by: Ron Paul at July 31, 2018 05:47 PM (RPJ6Z)

260 I think we should print a negative $20 bill (-$20) with Obama's picture on it.
Think of the fun.

Posted by: wth at July 31, 2018 05:47 PM (HgMAr)

261 The dollar has the purchasing power of 1% of what it did in 1913.

How is it relative to 1954?

Posted by: Grump928(c) at July 31, 2018 05:48 PM (yQpMk)

262 >>>248 "I can't believe that ace still reads Hot Air. I do check it out on rare occasion, but just to get some insight into what the Vox/Slate crowd is thinking.
Posted by: gm at July 31, 2018 05:30 PM (/LIOp)"

John Sexton is good. AllahPundit is a hate-read, when I bother, which is less and less often.

But yeah, I don't get the idea of an alternative media now simply regurgitating the crap on Jake Tapper and the rest of the legacy media, like AllahPundit does. Who needs a low-rent blogger to just parrot what the leftwing media -- well funded and slick -- is already blaring out to you?

Posted by: ace at July 31, 2018 05:48 PM (PA9oZ)

263 IIRC, the Fed's original objective, per Congress, was to maintain a stable money supply. Then at some point Congress (not the Fed or the evil bankers, but Congress ), added low unemployment and and low inflation to the Fed's objectives. And that's what's screwy about the Fed today. It's simpler, original mission -- stability of financial system -- was f*cked with by politicians.

Probably I'm not quite correct, or there's something I'm missing, but the Fed's mission is directed by Congress / politicians, who want to have it both ways: low unemployment and low inflation, which traditionally move in opposite directions?

Posted by: Hands at July 31, 2018 05:49 PM (EzdLW)

264 And ironically the lower taxes are the more jobs are created and hence,
more taxpayers paying in to the government and higher revenue.

But, socialism.

Posted by: J.J. Sefton at July 31, 2018 05:36 PM (G4W16)

=====
Even if the government gets less revenue from taxes at higher rates and has bigger deficits, it is more fair to raise taxes. All economists agree on that.

Posted by: Barak Obama at July 31, 2018 05:49 PM (pw+jk)

265 I'm pretty sure you can't use the world MILK in that context any more. People might think soft power dividends really produce milk. We can't have that sort of confusion.
Posted by: Lieawatha Warren - princess of the Hekahwee at July 31, 2018 05:13 PM

I'm confused. Does milk come from almonds or soft power divided ends?

Posted by: Mazie Hirono at July 31, 2018 05:49 PM (2NqXo)

266 Also, businesses had to invent their own private
coins, "tokens" I think they were called, because they could not make
change. So you would pay in paper dollars and they'd give you change in
their own private "currency" which could only be spent at that
establishment.

Posted by: ace at July 31, 2018 05:23 PM (PA9oZ)

What a Great Idea!

Posted by: Kohl's Cash Certificate at July 31, 2018 05:49 PM (UsCnO)

267 247 it's fun -- look up images of one cent "bills" the government printed. They're small, like the size of carnival tickets.

Posted by: ace

Another great hobby is to collect (or at least browse online) all the "scrip" private coinage made by general stores on the frontier in the 19th century, and especially general stores in states on the margins of the Confederacy during the Civil War (like Missouri). Back then, people didn't trust the federal government entirely, nor did they know who would win the war, nor were they sure whether their territory would eventually become part of the US. So "large" (for the era) general stores literally began making their own money. Some really creative designs on the 1-cent pieces.

I actually found one such coin in the dirt here in California, when I was a kid, next to some train tracks. Still fascinated by it.

Posted by: zombie at July 31, 2018 05:49 PM (c+2jX)

268 I just woke up in the middle of the night and
couldn't sleep for a couple of hours and I had to take a trazadone to
fall back asleep.

Posted by: ace at July 31, 2018 05:46 PM (PA9oZ)

I just got back from a conference in Europe, and stayed in a very nice hotel, with one exception. It was one of those where you stick your room card in a slot to keep the power on. Apparently, it was also motion activated. I'd crank the AC down to fall asleep, and, like clockwork, wake up 4 hours later because it had turned off and the room was now sweltering. It made for a rather stressful week. I hadn't considered drugs, but kind of wish I had.

Posted by: pep at July 31, 2018 05:50 PM (T6t7i)

269 What a Great Idea!
Posted by: Kohl's Cash Certificate at July 31, 2018 05:49 PM (UsCnO)

Jolly good!

Posted by: Green Stamps at July 31, 2018 05:50 PM (yQpMk)

270 Omg the math...the math.....there wasn't supposed to be any math...

Posted by: Berserker-Dragonheads Division at July 31, 2018 05:50 PM (9Om/r)

271 I still have a few $5 silver certificates. They look like $5 bills, but have a blue hue to them.

Posted by: johnd01 at July 31, 2018 05:50 PM (ukNFU)

272 Why do they do this with the names? I haven't gotten a good explanation yet. Is it just a game of "can you top this?"
At least "Rodquavious" is worth about 300 points in Scrabble....
Posted by: JoeF. at July 31, 2018 05:34 PM (y8Foj)

It's kind of obvious. They aspire to narcissism. They think that by giving themselves special names, they will have superior qualities. They're idiots who think that a mere label will give them prestige as opposed to having any positive qualities.

Posted by: Steve and Cold Bear at July 31, 2018 05:51 PM (/qEW2)

273 >>Another great hobby is to collect (or at least browse online) all the "scrip" private coinage made by general stores on the frontier in the 19th century, and especially general stores in states on the margins of the Confederacy during the Civil War (like Missouri). Back then, people didn't trust the federal government entirely, nor did they know who would win the war, nor were they sure whether their territory would eventually become part of the US. So "large" (for the era) general stores literally began making their own money. Some really creative designs on the 1-cent pieces.

I mentioned that above!

It was also post-war, just because there was no silver for coinage.

Posted by: ace at July 31, 2018 05:51 PM (PA9oZ)

274
The fun thing about Medicare is as you approach time to sign up, your junk mail increases exponentially. Throw it out. Keep throwing it out. Month after month.

Suddenly, you start to see actual numbers, low-low numbers that make sense.

I don't know how all these folks know my personal information * cough The Federal Govt tells them cough * but it's annoying as hell.

Posted by: Forgot My Nic - Economist at July 31, 2018 05:51 PM (LOgQ4)

275 Just got here, so if this has been mentioned already, sorry for the repeat.

"Shortly after taking office sixteen years later, Franklin Delano Roosevelt signed Executive Order 6102 into law, prohibiting the “hoarding” of gold. Under this executive order, Americans were prohibited from owning more than $100 worth of gold coins, and all “hoarders” (i.e. people who owned more than $100 worth of gold) were forced, by law, to sell their “excess” gold to the government at the prevailing price of $20.67 per ounce.

Then, once the government had all the gold, FDR revalued the dollar relative to gold so that gold was now worth $35 an ounce. By simple decree, the government had thereby robbed millions of American citizens at a rate of $14.33 per ounce of confiscated gold, which is why most historians agree that the Gold Confiscation of 1933 is the single most draconian economic act in the history of the United States."

It wasn't just Roosevelt who was responsible.

Here is the full article link on how we got there.

https://tinyurl.com/b6lvvrs

Posted by: platypus, gg channel at July 31, 2018 05:51 PM (jUilJ)

276 our currency value is based upon the government's ability to tax our economy.

Not just by increasing marginal tax rates, but by being able to collect from a healthy economy. Massive structural debt, federal spending are constraints on the economy. They effect GDP. Tax take money out of consumer hands and put it into non productive government hands to whatever. Debt has real negative effects on productivity.
Don't be too quick to criticize someone who instinctively grasps the problem but doesn't state it exactly right.
Posted by: Ron Paul at July 31, 2018 05:47 PM (RPJ6Z)

debt is debt. tax is tax.

Posted by: runner at July 31, 2018 05:52 PM (bUjCl)

277 It's one and the same. 20 to 40 million extra people in your country will affect your economy.

Posted by: Decaf at July 31, 2018 05:47 PM (Mymqt)

===
Not just extra people. Extra leeches on society's safety net and our tax monies. A double net loss to working Americans. But somehow they are strength according to leftists.

Posted by: Jukin the Deplorable and Profoundly Unserious at July 31, 2018 05:52 PM (pw+jk)

278 >>>271 I still have a few $5 silver certificates. They look like $5 bills, but have a blue hue to them.
Posted by: johnd01

Do they have a teal hue?

Posted by: George Costanza, Civil War Buff at July 31, 2018 05:52 PM (PA9oZ)

279 246 Therefore, Robots.

You mentioned earlier that you are ridiculously young. That must explain your incoherence.

Seriously, make an argument based on economics. Use a data point or two.
Posted by: Bandersnatch at July 31, 2018 05:44 PM (fuK7c)

That's an absurd punchline. I am making arguments based on economic data points. My generation's and younger future has been pissed away. I'd give my right nut to be 18 in the 1960'or 1970's where one middle class factory job could buy a home and support a wife and 3 kids.

I don't think you can fathom how dire the future looks for us with college degrees and who follow politics and news and trends. We know we are effed in the b-hole without a massive and painful reset.

Posted by: 1st world problems yoga studio at July 31, 2018 05:52 PM (t82DG)

280 Also, businesses had to invent their own private coins, "tokens" I think they were called, because they could not make change. So you would pay in paper dollars and they'd give you change in their own private "currency" which could only be spent at that establishment.

Posted by: ace

Precisely. But also for the reasons cited in comment #267 -- when you aren't sure which government will eventually be your permanent overlord (The Confederacy, or the Union), you lose faith in the viability of currency, and must make your own.

Posted by: zombie at July 31, 2018 05:52 PM (c+2jX)

281 Ace reads it so you don't have to

Posted by: Skip at July 31, 2018 05:53 PM (pHfeF)

282 Even if the government gets less revenue from taxes at higher rates and has bigger deficits, it is more fair to raise taxes.
Ah. What Ayn Rand and Victor Hugo call "The Man Who Laffers Curve."

Posted by: Stringer Davis at July 31, 2018 05:53 PM (8ZmvG)

283 183
I truly believe Obama and his administration were trying to financially wreck us. sell us out for 'global friends'

Posted by: willow at July 31, 2018 05:32 PM (dPd5y)

How true this statement is.

Posted by: LeftCoast Dawg at July 31, 2018 05:53 PM (UsCnO)

284 FICA deductions should go into the FICA account and not the General Fund. You can thank LBJ for that.
Posted by: Braenyard at July 31, 2018 05:47 PM (E367

----------

Sadly, it just began under him. Everty Congress since that time shares in the blame, not that it matters.

We are where we are now.

Posted by: Calm Mentor at July 31, 2018 05:53 PM (I16G8)

285 Bonds, Scarlet. Confederate bonds.

Posted by: Gerald O'Hara at July 31, 2018 05:53 PM (yQpMk)

286
debt is debt. tax is tax.
=====================

Tax is to Food as Debt is to Poop.

Posted by: Ron Paul at July 31, 2018 05:53 PM (V4+9a)

287
247 it's fun -- look up images of one cent "bills" the government printed. They're small, like the size of carnival tickets.

Posted by: ace at July 31, 2018 05:45 PM (PA9oZ)

Sales tax tokens. Tenth of a cent. State issued. Feds sued for illegal currency issued and Washington State ignored. Warms the the heart of any 10th Amendment groupie.

Posted by: Headless Body of Agnew at July 31, 2018 05:54 PM (Zskvw)

288 I truly believe Obama and his administration were trying to financially wreck us. sell us out for 'global friends'

Posted by: willow at July 31, 2018 05:32 PM (dPd5y)

Absolutely.

Posted by: Berserker-Dragonheads Division at July 31, 2018 05:54 PM (9Om/r)

289 I just got back from a conference in Europe, and stayed in a very nice hotel, with one exception. It was one of those where you stick your room card in a slot to keep the power on. Apparently, it was also motion activated. I'd crank the AC down to fall asleep, and, like clockwork, wake up 4 hours later because it had turned off and the room was now sweltering. It made for a rather stressful week. I hadn't considered drugs, but kind of wish I had.
Posted by: pep at July 31, 2018 05:50 PM

The EU sez you don't need A/C while you're sleeping, comrade.

Posted by: JuJuBee, just generally being shamey at July 31, 2018 05:54 PM (2NqXo)

290 Posted by: Ron Paul at July 31, 2018 05:53 PM (V4+9a)

you should write a book

Posted by: runner at July 31, 2018 05:55 PM (bUjCl)

291 My economic growf will be eleventy percenty!1!

Posted by: Little Lupe at July 31, 2018 05:55 PM (Tyii7)

292 I was told that there would be no quantum mechanics on this blog.

Posted by: Iowa Bob, totally not a Russian BOT at July 31, 2018 05:55 PM (tu3iY)

293 Our favorite whipping boy, Acosta, was on with Wolf Blitzer complaining about being whisked out of the Oval Office the other day during a press conference with Trump and the Italian visitor.

Seems that Acosta started shouting a question at the President and one of the President's aids loudly told him to leave and escorted him out.

Acosta has the sadz because only HE gets to shout at people and the President won't answer his questions. These people are beyond dumb.

Posted by: Cheri at July 31, 2018 05:55 PM (oiNtH)

294 I mentioned that above!

It was also post-war, just because there was no silver for coinage.

Posted by: ace

Yep.

The Wikipedia article actually has some nice examples as illustrations:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Token_coin

Posted by: zombie at July 31, 2018 05:55 PM (c+2jX)

295 I have a number of WWII steel nickels. I have a pretty big coin collection I started as a kid but stopped in my 20's . Not big enough to retire but probably could fund a lifetime supply of coffee.

Posted by: Lancelot Link Secret Agent Chimp at July 31, 2018 05:55 PM (C5Lvr)

296 Can I interest you in this genuine $1 trillion coin?

Posted by: Chumlee at July 31, 2018 05:56 PM (HgMAr)

297 Really, don't get yourself in a bubble like Leftists, read occasionally what they are writting

Posted by: Skip at July 31, 2018 05:56 PM (pHfeF)

298 I always understood that with one you get more recessions but less severe and the other, less recessions but potentially more severe.
Posted by: Lancelot Link Secret Agent Chimp at July 31, 2018 05:35 PM (C5Lvr)

Most recessions are created by poor government policies. There was a recession in the 20s we recovered from in 2 years. The great depression was created by government rules and regs that prevented the free movement of money as well as the creation new products and services.

As Morganthua stated:

We have tried spending money. We are spending more than we have ever spent before and it does not work. And I have just one interest, and if I am wrongsomebody else can have my job. I want to see this country prosperous. I want to see people get a job. I want to see people get enough to eat. We have never made good on our promisesI say after eight years of this administration we have just as much unemployment as when we startedAnd an enormous debt to boot!

Posted by: rhennigantx at July 31, 2018 05:56 PM (JFO2v)

299 I just got back from a conference in Europe, and stayed in a very nice hotel, with one exception. It was one of those where you stick your room card in a slot to keep the power on. Apparently, it was also motion activated. I'd crank the AC down to fall asleep, and, like clockwork, wake up 4 hours later because it had turned off and the room was now sweltering. It made for a rather stressful week. I hadn't considered drugs, but kind of wish I had.
Posted by: pep at July 31, 2018 05:50 PM
++++++++++
I had one of those. Confused the hell out of me at the time (I stumbled in the dark to phone the desk to find out why the damn lights wouldn't turn on) because it is anathema to an American. I am grateful every day for our comparatively cheap energy.

Posted by: Joe Mannix (Not a cop!) at July 31, 2018 05:56 PM (I2dne)

300 Do they have a teal hue?

Posted by: George Costanza, Civil War Buff at July 31, 2018 05:52 PM (PA9oZ)
Yes, kinda teal/blue. I worked as a commercial teller many moons ago, so we got to see a lot of interesting coins that people threw into a soda machine somewhere, or currency they were depositing. We would buy those out and bring them home. I have a whole bunch of silver coins, some bills, and some really old coins from the late 1800's.

Posted by: johnd01 at July 31, 2018 05:57 PM (ukNFU)

301 Better you die sweltering than we suffer the loss of just one polar bear!

Posted by: The Euros at July 31, 2018 05:58 PM (Tyii7)

302 That's an absurd punchline. I am making arguments based on economic data
points. My generation's and younger future has been pissed away. I'd
give my right nut to be 18 in the 1960'or 1970's where one middle class
factory job could buy a home and support a wife and 3 kids.

Generally agree, but it is worth noting that the idyllic past didn't have the internet, widespread travel, airbags, 800 channels, and 5000 ft2 houses. There are always pros and cons.

Posted by: pep at July 31, 2018 05:58 PM (T6t7i)

303 I thought the Great Depression was created by a massive market crash that sent everyone to the poorhouse.

Posted by: runner at July 31, 2018 05:58 PM (bUjCl)

304 I was just referencing George Costanza's question "Does her cheek have a rosy hue?"

also, his statement that he wanted to become a Civil War Buff.

I could not think of a word for "blue" that was similar to "rosy."

Posted by: George Costanza, Civil War Buff at July 31, 2018 05:59 PM (PA9oZ)

305 Ace, if you're reading this:

Yesterday, Democratic Dream Girl and Savior Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez hugs terrorist, begs for Islamic Fundamentalist votes and Middle East terror-funding for her campaign at Islamic Extremist conference in Dearborn:

https://legalinsurrection.com/2018/07/ alexandria-ocasio-cortez-and-linda-sarsour-co-headline-political-action-conference/

Unreal. A supernova of bad optics.

Posted by: zombie at July 31, 2018 05:59 PM (c+2jX)

306 -------------

There's a solution, but I don't really want to get banned for
sharing it. There should be a consequence for these rat-bastard
CongressCritters who spend other people's money like crack-addled
shopaholics at fingerhut.

Posted by: cornbred at July 31, 2018 05:47 PM (CeJDJ)

Somebody told me that noose-ropes hanging from lampposts and slicing heads with guillotines are now frowned upon.

Is this true? If so, it explains quite a bit.

Posted by: LeftCoast Dawg at July 31, 2018 05:59 PM (UsCnO)

307 -
--

I just got back from a conference in Europe, and stayed in a very nice
hotel, with one exception. It was one of those where you stick your room
card in a slot to keep the power on. Apparently, it was also motion
activated. I'd crank the AC down to fall asleep, and, like clockwork,
wake up 4 hours later because it had turned off and the room was now
sweltering. It made for a rather stressful week. I hadn't considered
drugs, but kind of wish I had.

Posted by: pep at July 31, 2018 05:50 PM

---------------

Next time, go out and buy a cheap oscillating fan and set it where the motion detector can see it.

Posted by: irright at July 31, 2018 05:59 PM (pMGkg)

308 And ironically the lower taxes are the more jobs are created and hence, more taxpayers paying in to the government and higher revenue.

But, socialism.
Posted by: J.J. Sefton at July 31, 2018 05:36 PM (G4W16)

------

But, socialism's point is not to maximize wealth potential for individuals or for the government.

The people who push socialism frequently don't understand it's goals, but the core in power always do.

It is a given that socialism will reduce the value of the economy drastically, often catastrophically, and that's the entire point. They know it will mean less money.

The important thing is that it gives the government wildly increased taxing authority as a key principle.

Thus, it gives the government a MUCH greater portion of the now reduced economy... individuals end up with a much smaller share of a much smaller pie.

And that means that the government holds all of the cards, and can exert total social control.

And that's the actual point.

Posted by: Yudhishthira's Dice at July 31, 2018 05:59 PM (AzW6q)

309 The rest of the article cautions Trump against his bluster about possible tariff wars over what he calls "unfair trade,"

These idiots seem not to grasp that no negotiation is possible unless the other side has something to gain or lose.

Right now, our trading "partners" are in Fat City; there's nothing for them to gain. So Trump is threatening them with something to lose. Now they have an incentive to cut a deal.

Otherwise, you're going to them saying, "How about giving us some money? Pretty please?"

And they'll say, "No."

Have these idiots never been in a negotiation? I mean, a successful one?

Posted by: Deplorable Jay Guevara, now with an added spark of divinity at July 31, 2018 05:59 PM (b0op4)

310 >>Generally agree, but it is worth noting that the idyllic past didn't have the internet, widespread travel, airbags, 800 channels, and 5000 ft2 houses. There are always pros and cons.

With the exception of travel I'm not convinced we are in a better place.

Posted by: JackStraw at July 31, 2018 05:59 PM (/tuJf)

311
Speaking of tits, did you hear about the tragedy of the former porn star Mia Khalifa having one of her implants ruptured from getting hit with a hockey puck?

https://tinyurl.com/yaqh7bwc
Posted by: buzzion at July 31, 2018 05:16 PM(zRwJ/)

She really got pucked!

Posted by: Place Holder at July 31, 2018 05:59 PM (XT6Vl)

312
Y'all reckon Ace has one more in 'im?

Posted by: Soothsayer -- Fake Commenter at July 31, 2018 06:00 PM (CviIO)

313 This is classic Hayek vs. Keynes...

And Keynes is down for an 8 count... hopefully the Ref will call the fight.

The economy IS organic, and if people think the economy is doing well, if they are given a fair shake, they will work harder and GAMBLE on increasing their business.

Posted by: Don Quixote at July 31, 2018 06:00 PM (NgKpN)

314 It just amazes me that conservatives will defend a large Private Bank with the absolute power to print and coin money and loan it back to the citizens at interest. I thought this was a don't trust authority space

It frustrating as hell because my generation and younger are boned and have to watch things like The Road Warrior to mentally prepare for the Burning Times.

Posted by: 1st world problems yoga studio at July 31, 2018 06:00 PM (t82DG)

315 I thought the Great Depression was created by a massive market crash that sent everyone to the poorhouse.

That's what they want you to think rather than the truth that The Crash was just a typical panic of the period and the country was well on it's way to painful recovery before FDR and the other commies drove it back down.

Posted by: Grump928(c) at July 31, 2018 06:00 PM (yQpMk)

316
Yesterday, Democratic Dream Girl and Savior
Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez hugs terrorist, begs for Islamic Fundamentalist
votes and Middle East terror-funding for her campaign at Islamic
Extremist conference in Dearborn:

https://legalinsurrection.com/2018/07/ alexandria-ocasio-cortez-and-linda-sarsour-co-headline-political-action-conference/

Unreal. A supernova of bad optics.

Posted by: zombie at July 31, 2018 05:59 PM (c+2jX)

Uh, define "bad".

Posted by: MSNBC dimwits at July 31, 2018 06:00 PM (UsCnO)

317
I thought the Great Depression was created by a massive market crash that sent everyone to the poorhouse.

Posted by: runner at July 31, 2018 05:58 PM (bUjCl)

======
Sure but FDR's policies extended the depression by a decade and would have gone on until he died but WWII happened. Obama was trying the same with similar results.

Posted by: Jukin the Deplorable and Profoundly Unserious at July 31, 2018 06:00 PM (pw+jk)

318 Next time, go out and buy a cheap oscillating fan and set it where the motion detector can see it.

I was told to get one of those bobbing bird things.

Posted by: pep at July 31, 2018 06:00 PM (T6t7i)

319 it's fun -- look up images of one cent "bills" the government printed. They're small, like the size of carnival tickets.

Posted by: ace at July 31, 2018 05:45 PM (PA9oZ)

They called them shinplasters back in the day, IIRC.

Posted by: Surfperch at July 31, 2018 06:01 PM (BHRUO)

320 I read today that Canada is being frozen out of a dual U.S./Mexico negotiation over NAFTA. Reasons given is that Chrystia Freeland is a bitch who pissed off Lighthizer and the Canucks went around Trump and approached members of Congress to try and sand bag him. Of course the Congress cucks sided with the Canucks.

This is a marvelous development.

Oh and I occasionally try and read online Canadian publications to see what's going on across the northern border and it's NAFTA non-stop. They're a small economy compared to the U.S. and they're absolutely shitting their flannels over the trade deal falling apart. There's also a fair amount of blame being placed on Trudeau for what's going on.

Freezing out Freeland and the Canucks (pun intended) seems like a way to get Canada to make a major concession to get back in. It's also a possible sign that Trump is going to nuke NAFTA from orbit and then make separate deals with Mexico and Canada.

I'm really hoping for the latter. I want those jobs here and not in Mexico.

If NAFTA goes away and we see a giant inflow of those jobs? That GDP is going to go to the moon.

Posted by: Dack Thrombosis at July 31, 2018 06:01 PM (4ErVI)

321 Most recessions are created by poor government policies. There was a recession in the 20s we recovered from in 2 years. The great depression was created by government rules and regs that prevented the free movement of money as well as the creation new products and services.
...
Posted by: rhennigantx at July 31, 2018 05:56 PM (JFO2v)
++++++++
Bad policies don't help any, but economies are perfectly good at receding all on their own. It's a bit like a railroad. They keep it as efficient as possible, but you eventually end up with a car you don't need. When enough of those pile up, you have to redistribute your rolling stock and this means running an empty train. That empty train is a normal recession.
Eventually, all of the little bad decisions accumulate and you need to refactor and end up with a recession as the bad decisions (and debt) get purged out. Debt is a biggie, and how you can get wild swings and brutal recessions even in a "hard money" system.
Trying to avoid or shorten recessions make it worse. You can reduce frequency, but you increase amplitude as a result...

Posted by: Joe Mannix (Not a cop!) at July 31, 2018 06:01 PM (I2dne)

322 310 >>Generally agree, but it is worth noting that the idyllic past didn't have the internet, widespread travel, airbags, 800 channels, and 5000 ft2 houses. There are always pros and cons.

With the exception of travel I'm not convinced we are in a better place.
Posted by: JackStraw at July 31, 2018 05:59 PM (/tuJf)

I'm with John Holme..... I mean JackStraw in this camp.

Posted by: 1st world problems yoga studio at July 31, 2018 06:01 PM (t82DG)

323

I don't think you can fathom how dire the future looks for us with college degrees and who follow politics and news and trends. We know we are effed in the b-hole without a massive and painful reset.
Posted by: 1st world problems yoga studio at July 31, 2018 05:52 PM (t82DG)

Shoulda got that Comp Sci degree with a minor in Urdu or Hindi. Guarantee a job at Hindisoft.

Posted by: Headless Body of Agnew at July 31, 2018 06:02 PM (Zskvw)

324 I was told that there would be no quantum mechanics on this blog.

Posted by: Iowa Bob, totally not a Russian BOT at July 31, 2018 05:55 PM

My dear old great-great-grandpa, Iron Eyes Aldrich we called him, was a wampum mechanic. Of course the whites stole all the wampum, leaving him broke. Is it any wonder we dyed our hair blonde and our eyes blue from then on, to avoid the endemic racism we faced from the white man?

Posted by: Liz Warren at July 31, 2018 06:02 PM (2NqXo)

325 And that means that the government holds all of the cards, and can exert total social control.

And that's the actual point.
Posted by: Yudhishthira's Dice at July 31, 2018 05:59 PM (AzW6q)

Yep. I think the fundamental bifurcation between liberals and ~~Americans~~ conservatives is control.

Liberals yearn to control other people, to ban this, to mandate that, to coerce the other. A day without coercing somebody is like a today without global warming to them.

Conservatives aren't interested in controlling other people. They typically just want to be left alone.

I am Exhibit A in that category.

Posted by: Deplorable Jay Guevara, now with an added spark of divinity at July 31, 2018 06:02 PM (b0op4)

326 Those Silver Certificates were as common as Treasury Notes. The only real difference between them was that you could take the Certificate to a bank and redeem it for silver.

Posted by: Braenyard at July 31, 2018 06:02 PM (E3678)

327 Socialism centralizes the economy in one set of hands - the government. NOt by the market and market supporting institutions, not laws of supply and demand decide, but your very clever government employees, and electees. That is why it always will fail.

Posted by: runner at July 31, 2018 06:02 PM (bUjCl)

328 With the exception of travel I'm not convinced we are in a better place.

Posted by: JackStraw

How about the very real prospect of universal vaccines, a cure for cancer, and space travel for the middle class. I'm optimistic.

Posted by: pep at July 31, 2018 06:02 PM (T6t7i)

329 Posted by: 1st world problems yoga studio at July 31, 2018 05:52 PM (t82DG)

How do you know what it took in the 60's or 70's? I lived it and people lived within their means to be able to buy a home and raise kids. And by live within their means I mean do with the bare minimum.

Posted by: Lancelot Link Secret Agent Chimp at July 31, 2018 06:02 PM (C5Lvr)

330 I mean decide the fate of the economy.

Posted by: runner at July 31, 2018 06:03 PM (bUjCl)

331 And that's the actual point.
Posted by: Yudhishthira's Dice at July 31, 2018 05:59 PM (AzW6q)
++++++++++++
Be very very wary of those who care not for money. They're in it for the power. It doesn't matter how shitty the hill is as long as they are at the top of it.

Posted by: Joe Mannix (Not a cop!) at July 31, 2018 06:03 PM (I2dne)

332
I stayed in an upscale sounding hotel in the Virgin Islands. They turned the a/c off at midnight. When I bitched they told me, "What do you expect? You're staying at a Holiday Inn."

You wake up at 12:05, the room is 78 degrees with 99% humidity. Temp and humidity rising by the minute.

The travel agent who sold me on the joint? She never saw my face again.

Posted by: Forgot My Nic at July 31, 2018 06:03 PM (LOgQ4)

333 >>It frustrating as hell because my generation and younger are boned and have to watch things like The Road Warrior to mentally prepare for the Burning Times.

There is tons of opportunity for young people that didn't exist when I was coming out of school. The whole concept of startup companies didn't really exist the way it does today.

It's true that a lot of the old ways of building your career have changed but there is arguably more opportunity today if you are willing to take risks and do things differently.

The burning times aren't coming anytime soon. DOOM! is not on the immediate horizon.

Posted by: JackStraw at July 31, 2018 06:04 PM (/tuJf)

334 I hit post before I finished. The younger generation is stressed because they can't accept living with the bare minimum until you can afford otherwise.

Posted by: Lancelot Link Secret Agent Chimp at July 31, 2018 06:04 PM (C5Lvr)

335 317
I thought the Great Depression was created by a massive market crash that sent everyone to the poorhouse.

Posted by: runner at July 31, 2018 05:58 PM (bUjCl)

======
Sure but FDR's policies extended the depression by a decade and would have gone on until he died but WWII happened. Obama was trying the same with similar results.
Posted by: Jukin the Deplorable and Profoundly Unserious at July 31, 2018 06:00 PM (pw+jk)

The private FED came out and admitted they caused the Great Depression.... Within the last 20 years they came out and said oopsie that's one is on us IICR correctly the time.

Posted by: 1st world problems yoga studio at July 31, 2018 06:04 PM (t82DG)

336 I just tried to leave and it's white out rain outside so, amuse me!

Posted by: Grump928(c) at July 31, 2018 06:04 PM (yQpMk)

337 Hands, I think you've got it mostly right - traditionally the Fed's "dual mandate" has been full employment and low inflation. Which, often, can be goals in tension with each other (the Phillips Curve). And there's another mandate - moderate long term interest rates.

That last one gets less attention, but reminds us of a very good candidate for a black swan to interrupt the rise towards the stratosphere nicely described by ace.

Interest rates, federal debt. Given our continuing, un-moderated fiscal insolvency, and historically low/artifical interest rates ..... well the odds and implications are fairly clear.

Posted by: rhomboid at July 31, 2018 06:04 PM (QDnY+)

338 Just switch to the nickel standard! Duh.

Posted by: andycanuck at July 31, 2018 06:05 PM (Evws/)

339 How do you know what it took in the 60's or 70's? I lived it and people
lived within their means to be able to buy a home and raise kids. And
by live within their means I mean do with the bare minimum.

Exhibit A-C: Ford Pinto, Chevy Vega, and AMC Gremlin.

Posted by: pep at July 31, 2018 06:05 PM (T6t7i)

340 The private FED came out and admitted they caused the Great Depression....

They might have helped cause the panic but the depression is all on the government.

Posted by: Grump928(c) at July 31, 2018 06:05 PM (yQpMk)

341 I thought this was a don't trust authority space .

Posted by: 1st world problems yoga studio at July 31, 2018 06:00 PM (t82DG)

Then you were terribly mistaken.

Its all about "good authority" vs "bad authority". But most Dems and most Repubs absolutely agree upon the primacy of the State over the Citizen.

The fight just starts when they get to arguing what that primacy should be used for.

Posted by: ScoggDog at July 31, 2018 06:05 PM (Dy7Eq)

342 303 I thought the Great Depression was created by a massive market crash that sent everyone to the poorhouse."

Great Depression was caused by the collapse of the Creditanstalt in Austria, combined with the very badly timed Smoot Hawley act. And then FDR tap danced on the grave and packed all the dirt down with his quasi-socialist
"remedies".

The market crash generated a lot of buzz and headlines, but it was just a sideshow that was little more than a symptom, not the disease.

Posted by: Tom Servo at July 31, 2018 06:05 PM (V2Yro)

343 It just amazes me that conservatives will defend a large Private Bank

Private? So who owns the Fed? Bilderbergs, Trilateral Commission?

Who is reaping all the secret Fed profits?

Posted by: Bandersnatch at July 31, 2018 06:06 PM (fuK7c)

344 Yesterday, Democratic Dream Girl and Savior
Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez hugs terrorist, begs for Islamic Fundamentalist votes and Middle East terror-funding for her campaign at Islamic Extremist conference in Dearborn:

https://legalinsurrection.com/2018/07/ alexandria-ocasio-cortez-and-linda-sarsour-co-headline-political-action-conference/

Unreal. A supernova of bad optics.

Posted by: zombie at July 31, 2018 05:59 PM (c+2jX)

Somewhere Joe Crowley is smiling.

Loopy Lupe is going to have the shortest political career in history. One and done, come November, I suspect.

Posted by: Deplorable Jay Guevara, now with an added spark of divinity at July 31, 2018 06:06 PM (b0op4)

345 333 >>It frustrating as hell because my generation and younger are boned and have to watch things like The Road Warrior to mentally prepare for the Burning Times.

There is tons of opportunity for young people that didn't exist when I was coming out of school. The whole concept of startup companies didn't really exist the way it does today.

It's true that a lot of the old ways of building your career have changed but there is arguably more opportunity today if you are willing to take risks and do things differently.

The burning times aren't coming anytime soon. DOOM! is not on the immediate horizon.
Posted by: JackStraw at July 31, 2018 06:04 PM (/tuJf)

Literally nothing is affordable compared to the 1960's and 1970's. You could buy much more value with exponentially less debt accumulation.

Posted by: 1st world problems yoga studio at July 31, 2018 06:06 PM (t82DG)

346 http://www.sfexaminer.com/supervisors-move-ban-workplace-cafeterias/
2 San Fran city representatives are going to offer a law banning companies from setting up their own cafeteria so their workers have to go out on the street to buy lunch.

Posted by: Skip at July 31, 2018 06:06 PM (pHfeF)

347 Is a strong economy a good thing or a bad thing?

Posted by: Northernlurker at July 31, 2018 06:06 PM (nBr1j)

348 The younger generation is stressed because they can't accept living with the bare minimum until you can afford otherwise.

Some truth to that, but also a hell of a lot of truth in the idea that the older generations have mortgaged the younger one's future to immediate gratification.

Posted by: pep at July 31, 2018 06:06 PM (T6t7i)

349 Great Depression was ~~caused~~ triggered by the collapse of the Creditanstalt in Austria

Posted by: Deplorable Jay Guevara, now with an added spark of divinity at July 31, 2018 06:06 PM (b0op4)

350 256 SS is already means tested in that over a certain amount of income
you have to give back a chunk of it to the government in taxes.

Posted by: Vic We Have No Party at July 31, 2018 05:32 PM

====
Which sucks because you pay 1/2 tax on that money taken out of your paycheck. Employers and self employed take the other 1/2 off their taxes.

Posted by: Jukin the Deplorable and Profoundly Unserious at July 31, 2018 05:47 PM (pw+jk)

I thought you could earn all you want in the year you reach full retirement

Posted by: Place Holder at July 31, 2018 06:07 PM (XT6Vl)

351 That's an absurd punchline. I am making arguments based on economic data points. My generation's and younger future has been pissed away. I'd give my right nut to be 18 in the 1960'or 1970's where one middle class factory job could buy a home and support a wife and 3 kids.

I don't think you can fathom how dire the future looks for us with college degrees and who follow politics and news and trends. We know we are effed in the b-hole without a massive and painful reset.

Posted by: 1st world problems yoga studio at July 31, 2018 05:52 PM (t82DG)

Yeah, those wonderful 17% mortgage rates and waiting in line for gas based on your license plate number. Fun times...fun times.

Posted by: Tami at July 31, 2018 06:07 PM (Enq6K)

352 343 It just amazes me that conservatives will defend a large Private Bank

Private? So who owns the Fed? Bilderbergs, Trilateral Commission?

Who is reaping all the secret Fed profits?
Posted by: Bandersnatch at July 31, 2018 06:06 PM (fuK7c)

Don't Lie. You know damn well that the FED is a privately owned central bank.

Posted by: 1st world problems yoga studio at July 31, 2018 06:07 PM (t82DG)

353 How do you know what it took in the 60's or 70's? I lived it and people lived within their means to be able to buy a home and raise kids. And by live within their means I mean do with the bare minimum.

Posted by: Lancelot Link Secret Agent Chimp at July 31, 2018 06:02 PM

The expectation back then was probably a two bedroom one bath house. Maybe 1250 sq feet. On a tiny lot. With the next door neighbors house 10 feet away.

Now? Four bedrooms, three baths, 2,500 feet minimum.

And by Gawd, even if they have to steal Granddads SS check, they'll have it.

Posted by: Forgot My Nic at July 31, 2018 06:07 PM (LOgQ4)

354 The U.S. economy couldn't rise above the 2.2% doldrums of the Obama years because the debt/GDP ratio was too high. It's still too high probably making 4% annual growth nearly impossible

Posted by: Frank Hardy at July 31, 2018 06:07 PM (RQ7Nf)

355 Loopy Lupe is going to have the shortest political career in history. One and done, come November, I suspect.

Posted by: Deplorable Jay Guevara, now with an added spark of divinity at July 31, 2018 06:06 PM (b0op4)

Nope. Her district is full of people who look like her and that's all that matters to them.

She is in for a rude awakening if she makes it to Congress, however, as the Dems have been taking shots at her almost non-stop since the primary.

Posted by: Dack Thrombosis at July 31, 2018 06:08 PM (4ErVI)

356 If they would have used the Fed like it was created for, we wouldn't have had a 'Great' Depression. Hoover foolishly listen to his Treasuary Sec and let the banks fail and did not let the Fed intervene. That's not me saying that. That's Milton Friedman.

Posted by: Lancelot Link Secret Agent Chimp at July 31, 2018 06:08 PM (C5Lvr)

357
Yeah, those wonderful 17% mortgage rates and waiting in line for gas based on your license plate number. Fun times...fun times.

Posted by: Tami

You had numbers? Luxury!

Posted by: pep at July 31, 2018 06:09 PM (T6t7i)

358 If you really want to see what the socialists like FDR and Obama have done to the value of the dollar go over to Shorpy and pull of pics of the small mom and pop grocery stores which would be the equivalent of the quick stops now and look at the price differences on common food items.

Here is one market where you can see the prices of vegetables in can which ranged from 20 to 25 cents. Think what you would pay for those in a min-mart now. Guaranteed to be around $1.50 or more.

http://tinyurl.com/ybzvkm58

Posted by: Vic We Have No Party at July 31, 2018 06:09 PM (mpXpK)

359 That is why it always will fail.
Posted by: runner at July 31, 2018 06:02 PM (bUjCl)

------

And that's kind of my point - how do you define success and failure?

As an individual, you define it terms of maximum earning potential, because high earnings mean independence and self-determination. And a working, vibrant economy maximizes your potential.

Government's don't give a fig amount money. They define success in terms of maximum power. It's the nature of government. Controlling things and people is, put simply, So, in a free society we strictly limit the amount of power the government can have, and retain most of it for ourselves, in the form of property rights and market economies.

And most people in government obviously hate that state of affairs. By seizing all of those property rights and deliberately impoverishing everyone, they maximize their potential.

To them, a ruined economy is no failure - it's the goal. It's success.

Posted by: Yudhishthira's Dice at July 31, 2018 06:09 PM (AzW6q)

360 347 Is a strong economy a good thing or a bad thing?
Posted by: Northernlurker at July 31, 2018 06:06 PM (nBr1j)

Depends. Which party is in office?

It's kinda like a strong dollar.

Democrat in office: "Yay, strong dollar! Imports cheap, your money goes further in Europe!"

Republican in office: "Oh noes, strong dollar! American manufactures expensive overseas! Exports hardest hit!"

Posted by: Deplorable Jay Guevara, now with an added spark of divinity at July 31, 2018 06:09 PM (b0op4)

361 Literally nothing is affordable compared to the 1960's and 1970's. You could buy much more value with exponentially less debt accumulation.

Yes, a loaf of bread was a dime but the average annual salary in the United States in 1950 was $3,210. A private in the US army made $40 a month. The average car cost $1500.

Posted by: Grump928(c) at July 31, 2018 06:09 PM (yQpMk)

362 OK, I guess it is time to come clean, I , yes, I own the Fed. Privately. With these little green things, that are signed by the its chairman.

Posted by: runner at July 31, 2018 06:09 PM (bUjCl)

363 >>Literally nothing is affordable compared to the 1960's and 1970's. You could buy much more value with exponentially less debt accumulation.

That's just wrong. The cost on a lot of things has come down substantially in real dollar terms. Yea, people were buying houses for a fraction of what they go for today. They were also making a fraction of what they are making these days.

As a lot of people are saying you seem to believe back in the good old days we all got out of school and started buying houses and cars and boats. This isn't true at all for 99% of the population.

Trust me, there were plenty of lean times and going without along the way.

Posted by: JackStraw at July 31, 2018 06:09 PM (/tuJf)

364
What's sad is how the Republicans will be so careful around Occasio because they'll be terrified of being called names by the fake news.

Posted by: Soothsayer -- Fake Commenter at July 31, 2018 06:10 PM (CviIO)

365 I hit post before I finished. The younger generation is stressed because they can't accept living with the bare minimum until you can afford otherwise.
Posted by: Lancelot Link Secret Agent Chimp at July 31, 2018 06:04 PM (C5Lvr)
++++++++++
Actually, I disagree. I am in this group. I am slightly older than the typical age here (29). The Financial Crisis had one hell of an influence on older Millenials. We saw our parents or friends' parents, or our cities, etc. get ruined by all the debt. We are a (comparatively) debt-averse cohort. We have plenty of (too much) debt, but less than you might expect.
But debt-aversion means living within your means, and the lifestyle your means can support does not meet the expectations that were set for you while being raised. I think this is a big cause of economic dissatisfaction. It turns out that the promised lifestyles cannot be achieved in general without an exceedingly dangerous Dance with Debt, and that is a dance that younger people are less inclined to go to than were their Boomer parents, who loved debt as a cohort.
But then, the Boomers, once they got through the 70s, got the free ride of a secular decline in interest rates, which made debt non-scary. This new generation is coming of age during a secular increase in interest rates, and debt becomes a lot more dangerous in that context - and you shouldn't use it to fund a lifestyle because it'll eat you.

Posted by: Joe Mannix (Not a cop!) at July 31, 2018 06:10 PM (I2dne)

366 Dack, agreed, the NAFTA stuff is fascinating, and instructive (if fairly obvious in what it teaches). Trump has put the two partners' interests at risk, with good reasons, and largely split them into separate problems, to maximize even more our leverage. All standard common sense approaches to problem-solving and negotiation. But, bizarrely, quite rare from US leaders, on trade matters, for some time.

New Mexican prez gave early signs he wanted to get stuff squared away with the US quickly, but not sure where things stand. He even made interesting noises about returning order to the northern border.

Posted by: rhomboid at July 31, 2018 06:10 PM (QDnY+)

367 Yeah, those wonderful 17% mortgage rates and waiting in line for gas based on your license plate number. Fun times...fun times.
Posted by: Tami at July 31, 2018 06:07 PM (Enq6K)

Everything is in a freaking bubble. The purvhaing power of the dollar is 20% of what it was back then. There were jobs back then. One middle class factory job would buy you a car, house, support a wife and 3 kids. It was done all the time. I have friends whose parents did this very thing.

Posted by: 1st world problems yoga studio at July 31, 2018 06:10 PM (t82DG)

368 wait ! I lied ! Signed by the secretary of something or other.

Posted by: runner at July 31, 2018 06:11 PM (bUjCl)

369 HVAC

Posted by: Braenyard at July 31, 2018 06:11 PM (E3678)

370 Nope. Her district is full of people who look like her and that's all that matters to them.

She is in for a rude awakening if she makes it to Congress, however, as the Dems have been taking shots at her almost non-stop since the primary.
Posted by: Dack Thrombosis at July 31, 2018 06:08 PM (4ErVI)

OK, I don't know the area, so I'm speaking from a position of unalloyed ignorance. But she won in an election with only 11% turnout, and that doubtless selected strongly for the hard left. Crowley and his supporters obviously figured he was a shoo-in, and didn't campaign seriously.

The more she quacks, I think the more she hurts herself. And Crowley is still on the ballot.

Posted by: Deplorable Jay Guevara, now with an added spark of divinity at July 31, 2018 06:12 PM (b0op4)

371 346 Just to give those Leftists a hint of what's next ( since not a one ever picked up a history book) is to have those workers work in the fields a hour or two in the morning before work.

Posted by: Skip at July 31, 2018 06:12 PM (pHfeF)

372 Nope. Her district is full of people who look like her and that's all that matters to them.

She is in for a rude awakening if she makes it to Congress, however, as the Dems have been taking shots at her almost non-stop since the primary.
Posted by: Dack Thrombosis at July 31, 2018 06:08 PM (4ErVI)

--------------

She has Tom Perez, Chairman of the DNC, on her side. She'll be just fine, as long as he holds that position.

Posted by: Calm Mentor at July 31, 2018 06:12 PM (I16G8)

373 355 Loopy Lupe is going to have the shortest political career in history. One and done, come November, I suspect.

Posted by: Deplorable Jay Guevara, now with an added spark of divinity at July 31, 2018 06:06 PM (b0op4)

Nope. Her district is full of people who look like her and that's all that matters to them.

She is in for a rude awakening if she makes it to Congress, however, as the Dems have been taking shots at her almost non-stop since the primary.
Posted by: Dack Thrombosis at July 31, 2018 06:08 PM (4ErVI)

Will a James Hodgkinson emerge who will then target the old bull establishment Dems?

The world wonders...

Posted by: J.J. Sefton at July 31, 2018 06:12 PM (G4W16)

374 350 I thought you could earn all you want in the year you reach full retirement

Posted by: Place Holder at July 31, 2018 06:07 PM (XT6Vl)

Oh you can earn all you want but they tax your SS when you have a gross income over a certain amount. IIANM its about $30K which ain't much.

Posted by: Vic We Have No Party at July 31, 2018 06:12 PM (mpXpK)

375 The expectation back then was probably a two bedroom one bath house. Maybe 1250 sq feet. On a tiny lot. With the next door neighbors house 10 feet away. "

My dad bought an acre in northern Phoenix (way expensive now!!!) and built a 4 bedroom, 2 bath, 3000 sq ft house on it in 1968. He was making about $24K per year - the brand new 3000 square ft house? Total cost, $30k, and that included the land. Today, that's easily a $600K property. (they sold and moved up years ago)

Posted by: Tom Servo at July 31, 2018 06:12 PM (V2Yro)

376 New Mexican prez gave early signs he wanted to get stuff squared away
with the US quickly, but not sure where things stand. He even made
interesting noises about returning order to the northern border.

Last I heard, he was talking about preventing MEXICANS from crossing the border, but nothing was said about the Central Americans who they allow to move through their country into ours. Any word on that?

Posted by: pep at July 31, 2018 06:12 PM (T6t7i)

377 Despite everything, I like today better than 40 years ago.

Posted by: Grump928(c) at July 31, 2018 06:12 PM (yQpMk)

378 also a hell of a lot of truth in the idea that the older generations have mortgaged the younger one's future to immediate gratification.

That comes up when I'm in the car with No. 2 Son and there's a news story about some new spending program.

I explain that we're in debt, the money we're spending is borrowed from China, and he's going to have to learn to be useful to pay back what we're spending now.

He says he's just going to stiff China.

Posted by: Bandersnatch at July 31, 2018 06:13 PM (fuK7c)

379 No smoking in public housing anymore. I want to see some folks get busted now. Ha!

Posted by: f'd at July 31, 2018 06:13 PM (UdKB7)

380 NOOD Y'all.

Posted by: Martini Farmer at July 31, 2018 06:13 PM (iiixZ)

381 377 Despite everything, I like today better than 40 years ago.
Posted by: Grump928(c) at July 31, 2018 06:12 PM (yQpMk)

First 18 months of Jimmy the Dhimmi. I was a senior in high school and so was clueless everything but getting laid.

Posted by: J.J. Sefton at July 31, 2018 06:14 PM (G4W16)

382 http://www.sfexaminer.com/supervisors-move-ban-workplace-cafeterias/
2 San Fran city representatives are going to offer a law banning companies from setting up their own cafeteria so their workers have to go out on the street to buy lunch.

Posted by: Skip at July 31, 2018 06:06 PM (

Can't fix stupid. Do they think people are incapable of bringing their own lunch?

Posted by: Infidel at July 31, 2018 06:14 PM (SUiUz)

383 Yeah, those wonderful 17% mortgage rates and waiting in line for gas based on your license plate number. Fun times...fun times.
Posted by: Tami at July 31, 2018 06:07 PM (Enq6K)

In fairness, the 17% mortgage rates resulted from Volcker's determination to wring out inflationary expectations from the economy, and from lenders. He showed that the US was willing to endure the pain to do that.

Lenders, seeing this, no longer demanded high interest rates to offset the previously expected inflation, lowering borrowing costs and dampening wage expectations. This, in turn, triggered the boom under Reagan.

Posted by: Deplorable Jay Guevara, now with an added spark of divinity at July 31, 2018 06:14 PM (b0op4)

384 Everything is in a freaking bubble. The purvhaing power of the dollar is 20% of what it was back then. There were jobs back then. One middle class factory job would buy you a car, house, support a wife and 3 kids. It was done all the time. I have friends whose parents did this very thing.

Posted by: 1st world problems yoga studio at July 31, 2018 06:10 PM (t82DG)

And people's expectation's were 20% of what they are now and what constitutes a car, a house and what the kids 'needs' were.

Posted by: Tami at July 31, 2018 06:14 PM (Enq6K)

385 Every so often see a newspaper from long ago, a new car for $900

Posted by: Skip at July 31, 2018 06:14 PM (pHfeF)

386 In 1932 the stock market had hit bottom and was recovering. FDR managed to stagnate the economy until 'Lend/Lease' and - eventually - WWII.

If you are interested a great book to read is 'The Forgotten Man' by Amity Shlaes.

Also internet search stock market and unemployment 1930 - 1943.

Posted by: Lurking Cynic at July 31, 2018 06:15 PM (YBMcf)

387 Once you reach full retirement age, there is no penalty. I started taking it this year. No penalty, only taxes at my normal rate. And I am still working.

Posted by: Chi-town Jerry at July 31, 2018 06:15 PM (518BP)

388 That's an absurd punchline. I am making arguments based on economic data

points. My generation's and younger future has been pissed away. I'd

give my right nut to be 18 in the 1960'or 1970's where one middle class

factory job could buy a home and support a wife and 3 kids.

Generally
agree, but it is worth noting that the idyllic past didn't have the
internet, widespread travel, airbags, 800 channels, and 5000 ft2 houses.
There are always pros and cons.

Posted by: pep at July 31, 2018 05:58 PM

---

Cancer was a killer then and after you were diagnosed you had about 5-6 months to live in agony before you died. That is if you hadn't gotten polio when you were a child because there was no vaccine. Plus smallpox was still around along with dozens of other child killing diseases.

And you lived in a 600-700 SF house with one bathroom and one TV with 3 channels and no air conditioning.

Speaking of the 1970s, your average middle class job couldn't support the 10-16% average interest on a mortgage. It took two jobs to be able to qualify for a mortgage and you needed to be able to put $5,000 on a $35,000 house before they would talk to you.

but yep, those were the good old days.

Posted by: The Great White Scotsman at July 31, 2018 06:15 PM (JUOKG)

389 If she makes it to congress it'll be her seat for life - just like Jackson Lee in Texas.

Posted by: Braenyard at July 31, 2018 06:15 PM (E3678)

390 Just found out that "Red" Ron Dellums assumed room temperature the other day....
Posted by: JoeF. at July 31, 2018 05:29 PM (y8Foj)

Good; he was a scumbag that hated America and colluded (for real) with the Commies.

Posted by: Retired Buckeye Cop at July 31, 2018 06:16 PM (5Yee7)

391 Don't Lie. You know damn well that the FED is a privately owned central bank.

I don't want to make this personal. You are mistaken about a large variety of things. The Fed is not privately owned in any real manner. There is lots of good information on the internet, including the Fed's own page when you google "fed reserve bank private".

Or, again, tell me cui bono. Who are the secret private owners of the Federal Reserve Banks who get to retain the profits?

Posted by: Bandersnatch at July 31, 2018 06:16 PM (fuK7c)

392 She has Tom Perez, Chairman of the DNC, on her side. She'll be just fine, as long as he holds that position.
Posted by: Calm Mentor at July 31, 2018 06:12 PM (I16G

Big IF. VERY big if, I suspect. IIRC, Perez was a compromise candidate in the first place, so nobody was intrinsically crazy about him.

Posted by: Deplorable Jay Guevara, now with an added spark of divinity at July 31, 2018 06:16 PM (b0op4)

393 Turkey giving the finger to VP Pence and not releasing the pastor

Posted by: Skip at July 31, 2018 06:16 PM (pHfeF)

394 387
Once you reach full retirement age, there is no penalty. I started
taking it this year. No penalty, only taxes at my normal rate. And I
am still working.

Posted by: Chi-town Jerry at July 31, 2018 06:15 PM (518BP)

I never said it was a penalty, its a tax.

Posted by: Vic We Have No Party at July 31, 2018 06:17 PM (mpXpK)

395 He even made interesting noises about returning order to the northern border.
-----
Those bastards are going to invade Canada?!
F#ckers!

Posted by: andycanuck at July 31, 2018 06:18 PM (Evws/)

396 Had a rough couple of days at work and as I occasionally do I took a break to look at job sites - HOLY COW there are a lot of openings out there. High end professional postings. I went ahead and applied to two jobs just to see what happens. I'm pretty happy with my current position but if another company wants to pay me more to do the same thing - well, why not?

Imagine this keeping up. Wages get higher, and with renegotiated trade deals food and hard goods get cheaper - #GoldenAge.

Posted by: Joseph Dickerson at July 31, 2018 06:18 PM (LDV7V)

397 It's also worth remembering that the normal in the past (50s-early 70s) was simply the interlude after WWII. That was NOT normal, but rather a result of the fact that our competitor's cities were smoking ruins.

Posted by: pep at July 31, 2018 06:19 PM (T6t7i)

398 She'll be just fine, as long as he holds that position.
-----
And I think we all know what position that is.

Posted by: andycanuck at July 31, 2018 06:21 PM (Evws/)

399 Everything is in a freaking bubble. The purvhaing power of the dollar is 20% of what it was back then. There were jobs back then. One middle class factory job would buy you a car, house, support a wife and 3 kids. It was done all the time. I have friends whose parents did this very thing.
Posted by: 1st world problems yoga studio at July 31, 2018 06:10 PM (t82DG)

1. The factory jobs were destroyed by government regulations and free trade.
2. Regulation to cars added almost $8k in cost since 2008. Yep, during the recession Dems made cars more expensive.
3. Two factors affect housing cost. Local regulations like zoning laws, building codes, and required features doubles the cost of homes in just 10 years in some markets. And then the is size inflation.

Posted by: rhennigantx at July 31, 2018 06:21 PM (JFO2v)

400 Would Turkey have given up the Pastor if we had sold him those F-35s?

Posted by: Braenyard at July 31, 2018 06:21 PM (E3678)

401 353
The expectation back then was probably a two bedroom one bath house. Maybe 1250 sq feet. On a tiny lot. With the next door neighbors house 10 feet away.

Now? Four bedrooms, three baths, 2,500 feet minimum.

Posted by: Forgot My Nic at July 31, 2018 06:07 PM (LOgQ4)

This is a good point. Also, families back then had one car. That's total, not per family member. My own house was built in the 50s and has a one-car garage. I doubt anybody builds houses like that today.

Posted by: rickl at July 31, 2018 06:22 PM (sdi6R)

402 363 >>Literally nothing is affordable compared to the 1960's and 1970's. You could buy much more value with exponentially less debt accumulation.

That's just wrong. The cost on a lot of things has come down substantially in real dollar terms. Yea, people were buying houses for a fraction of what they go for today. They were also making a fraction of what they are making these days.

As a lot of people are saying you seem to believe back in the good old days we all got out of school and started buying houses and cars and boats. This isn't true at all for 99% of the population.

Trust me, there were plenty of lean times and going without along the way.
Posted by: JackStraw at July 31, 2018 06:09 PM (/tuJf)

-Medical costs and insurance have been rising yearly at a steady 9-10% for decades.
- Housing back in a bubble that is basically unaffordable for those under 40 or have to risk going into massive debt with years and years of 6 figure interest over 15-30 years.
- College costs are in a massive bubble
- dollar is worth only 20% or what it was in the 1960'a and 1970's
- low inetest rates means no saving opportunities
- manufacturing jobs are all but gone
- top teir jobs are being outscourced overseas or by being in immigrants
- inflation is higher than being repeated.
- 34 trillion added to FED ballance sheet since 2009
- only 2 quarters of real GDP growth since the tech bubble popped
- Literally we are told let them eat IPADs and we can fuck off about having a spouse and kids
- energy and gad is up at least 400% since gas was 70 cents a gallon in 1998
- 22 trillion in debt
- 220 trillion in unfunded liabilities
- 1.5 quad trillion in a derivative bubble

I could go on but you are not being honest if you say with a straight face that there are more opportunities out there than ever before. There are not. At least NOT for younger Americans.

Posted by: 1st world problems yoga studio at July 31, 2018 06:22 PM (t82DG)

403 I'll take Interlude for 5000.

Posted by: Braenyard at July 31, 2018 06:22 PM (E3678)

404 Private? So who owns the Fed? Bilderbergs, Trilateral Commission?

Who is reaping all the secret Fed profits?
Posted by: Bandersnatch at July 31, 2018 06:06 PM (fuK7c)

The Colonel! With his wee beady eyes!

Posted by: Pug Mahon, Possibly Confused at July 31, 2018 06:23 PM (xPJvm)

405 397 It's also worth remembering that the normal in the past (50s-early 70s) was simply the interlude after WWII. That was NOT normal, but rather a result of the fact that our competitor's cities were smoking ruins.
Posted by: pep at July 31, 2018 06:19 PM (T6t7i)

This, too.

Posted by: rickl at July 31, 2018 06:24 PM (sdi6R)

406 I know there is a lot of miss information about the Fed Reserve,
I have no idea how it works, whats true and what isn't.

Posted by: Skip at July 31, 2018 06:25 PM (pHfeF)

407 Look we have been hoodwinked by globalism and "free trade". It's ok to admit it has been a colossal eff up to generations younger than baby boomers. We have to fix it. It's impossible to continue on the same trajectory.

Posted by: 1st world problems yoga studio at July 31, 2018 06:25 PM (t82DG)

408 310
>>Generally agree, but it is worth noting that the idyllic past
didn't have the internet, widespread travel, airbags, 800 channels, and
5000 ft2 houses. There are always pros and cons.

Remember the simple days, when Pink Floyd told us there were 13 channels of shit on the TV to choose from?

It is soooo complicated now.

Posted by: LeftCoast Dawg at July 31, 2018 06:27 PM (UsCnO)

409 Acosta was just getting heckled at the Trump rally in Tampa.

He seems to think he's some heroic truth teller facing down the forces of evil. He's an obnoxious turd.

Posted by: JackStraw at July 31, 2018 06:27 PM (/tuJf)

410 404 Private? So who owns the Fed? Bilderbergs, Trilateral Commission?

Who is reaping all the secret Fed profits?
Posted by: Bandersnatch at July 31, 2018 06:06 PM (fuK7c)

The Colonel! With his wee beady eyes!
Posted by: Pug Mahon, Possibly Confused at July 31, 2018 06:23 PM (xPJvm)

So dishonest. Just admit it's freaking Private Central Bank with zero affiliation to the federal government. People can easily access this information while the internet is still free.

It's a private central Bank. Confess literally gave away the most powerful tool they had to protect the citizens. The power to print and coin money.

Posted by: 1st world problems yoga studio at July 31, 2018 06:29 PM (t82DG)

411 365
I am slightly older than the typical age here (29). The Financial Crisis had one hell of an influence on older Millenials. We saw our parents or friends' parents, or our cities, etc. get ruined by all the debt. We are a (comparatively) debt-averse cohort. We have plenty of (too much) debt, but less than you might expect.
But debt-aversion means living within your means, and the lifestyle your means can support does not meet the expectations that were set for you while being raised. I think this is a big cause of economic dissatisfaction. It turns out that the promised lifestyles cannot be achieved in general without an exceedingly dangerous Dance with Debt, and that is a dance that younger people are less inclined to go to than were their Boomer parents, who loved debt as a cohort.
But then, the Boomers, once they got through the 70s, got the free ride of a secular decline in interest rates, which made debt non-scary. This new generation is coming of age during a secular increase in interest rates, and debt becomes a lot more dangerous in that context - and you shouldn't use it to fund a lifestyle because it'll eat you.
Posted by: Joe Mannix (Not a cop!) at July 31, 2018 06:10 PM (I2dne)

Well stated. I'm a Boomer, but somewhere along the line I became allergic to debt, even though I never got into any real trouble with it.

Going forward, people who stay out of debt will have a big advantage over people in debt.

Posted by: rickl at July 31, 2018 06:30 PM (sdi6R)

412 391 Don't Lie. You know damn well that the FED is a privately owned central bank.

I don't want to make this personal. You are mistaken about a large variety of things. The Fed is not privately owned in any real manner. There is lots of good information on the internet, including the Fed's own page when you google "fed reserve bank private".

Or, again, tell me cui bono. Who are the secret private owners of the Federal Reserve Banks who get to retain the profits?
Posted by: Bandersnatch at July 31, 2018 06:16 PM (fuK7c)

What branch of government of elected officials owns the FED and has the power to print, coin, and regulate money supply? It used to be Congress so what branch does this now?

Posted by: 1st world problems yoga studio at July 31, 2018 06:32 PM (t82DG)

413 So dishonest. Just admit it's freaking Private Central Bank with zero affiliation to the federal government.

You are mistaken to the point of being insane. "don't lie, that's dishonest".

A private bank accrues profits to the benefit of its shareholders. Who are the shareholders who profit from the Federal Reserve Banks?

Fed paranoia runs deep, I know, and some of it is justified, but you really ought to take the time to learn how things work.

Posted by: Bandersnatch at July 31, 2018 06:32 PM (fuK7c)

414 1st world - if itis private, who convinced them to push several trillion dollars into the economy for qualitative easing?

Seems like a dumb thing to do for a private bank!

Posted by: Chi-town Jerry at July 31, 2018 06:34 PM (518BP)

415 If you don't go into debt, your credit will be nothing. You have to have credit to make major purchases. You can have assets and wealth and do the right thing by never going into debt, but one misstep and if you need a loan the system and banks will tell you to fuck off.

Also try taking all of your money out of the bank and see what happens. I'm actually old enough to renwmeber when you could take out 10's of 1000's without the backs caring (I watched my family) and now you are looked at as a criminal for wanting to take out 1000 bucks.

Posted by: 1st world problems yoga studio at July 31, 2018 06:36 PM (t82DG)

416 ...
A private bank accrues profits to the benefit of its shareholders. Who are the shareholders who profit from the Federal Reserve Banks?
...
Posted by: Bandersnatch at July 31, 2018 06:32 PM (fuK7c)
+++++++++
The US Treasury gets the profits if any, the member banks own the institution. I am not a Fed fan but more because they misbehave and screw around way to much in terms of enabling public debt. Fiat-vs-gold (or whatever commodity) is a complicated topic, but hard money itself won't stop (or even reduce) wild currency value swings, debt bubbles, etc.
If you want to be angry at the Fed, be angry because of synthetically cheap capital (low interest rates), allowing misallocation of capital, bubbles, massive budget deficits, massive trade deficits (of which the budget deficits are partially a symptom), etc. Being angry at the Fed for being pseudo-private is missing the real problems of Fed misbehavior (which would be just as real in a Gold era, as we have seen in the early Fed days).

My devalued $0.02.

Posted by: Joe Mannix (Not a cop!) at July 31, 2018 06:37 PM (I2dne)

417 Posted by: 1st world problems yoga studio at July 31, 2018 06:22 PM (t82DG)

I know one thing, with your attitude you will most certainly make a self fulfilling prophecy.

Posted by: Lancelot Link Secret Agent Chimp at July 31, 2018 06:39 PM (2DOZq)

418 If you don't go into debt, your credit will be nothing. You have to have credit to make major purchases. You can have assets and wealth and do the right thing by never going into debt, but one misstep and if you need a loan the system and banks will tell you to fuck off.

...
Posted by: 1st world problems yoga studio at July 31, 2018 06:36 PM (t82DG)
++++++++
Not necessarily. I have no long-term fixed debt (in part because I don't own property - no mortgage), but I do have a couple of credit cards I keep paid off and with low total utilization. My credit is fine. You can have some routine, healthy activity without being a chronic, balance-carrying debtor.

Posted by: Joe Mannix (Not a cop!) at July 31, 2018 06:39 PM (I2dne)

419 413 So dishonest. Just admit it's freaking Private Central Bank with zero affiliation to the federal government.

You are mistaken to the point of being insane. "don't lie, that's dishonest".

A private bank accrues profits to the benefit of its shareholders. Who are the shareholders who profit from the Federal Reserve Banks?

Fed paranoia runs deep, I know, and some of it is justified, but you really ought to take the time to learn how things work.
Posted by: Bandersnatch at July 31, 2018 06:32 PM (fuK7c)

You are assuming that when I said private central bank that I meant at a profit. I never said that. I said it's a private central Bank that has nothing to do with the federal government and congress gave away it's power to a private entity to print and coin and control money supply and create bubbles.

Maybe it's done to control people. I dint know. I only know it's a private central Bank with zero federal oversight. We don't even have the power to audit the damn thing.

The 34 trillion on balance sheets since 2009 was done to stop the mother of all meltdowns with was the housing bubble, which was 1000 times worse than most People know because the FED came in and propped up the economy artificially,instead of allowing things to self correct naturally. They were probably afraid for their lives, which I'm referring to Our Betters and Our Overlords.

Posted by: 1st world problems yoga studio at July 31, 2018 06:43 PM (t82DG)

420 Not necessarily. I have no long-term fixed debt (in part because I don't own property - no mortgage), but I do have a couple of credit cards I keep paid off and with low total utilization. My credit is fine. You can have some routine, healthy activity without being a chronic, balance-carrying debtor.
Posted by: Joe Mannix (Not a cop!) at July 31, 2018 06:39 PM (I2dne)

I pray you never have a major medical condition or physical accident that takes you out of the rat race for a period of time. It's a future killer because there are no 2nd teir jobs (manufacturing) to fall back into. Making minimum wage doesn't get you out of debt. Making 30k a year won't do it eaither, which is poverty level. Making 50k will slowly allow you to make a comeback but where are those jobs again? Overseas or occupied by immigrants for less money.

Posted by: 1st world problems yoga studio at July 31, 2018 06:46 PM (t82DG)

421 417 Posted by: 1st world problems yoga studio at July 31, 2018 06:22 PM (t82DG)

I know one thing, with your attitude you will most certainly make a self fulfilling prophecy.
Posted by: Lancelot Link Secret Agent Chimp at July 31, 2018 06:39 PM (2DOZq)

Right. Well I have comeback from nothing and spent 5 years fighting the state and system just to be a dad after doing nothing wrong at a cost of 400k so you can't take me being a devoted father in my kids lives away from me. Nobody can. It's been hell.

Also since when does dealing with verifiable circumstances that are objectively worse that the set of variables in the 1960's and 1970's give me an attitude problem. I never would have voted to piss away the future of my kids and grandkids along with. those of my countrymen because of consumerism.and materialism.

It's not my attitude that's the problem. And if you think it is well,it's the attitude of the vast majority of American Citizens, hence Trump.

Posted by: 1st world problems yoga studio at July 31, 2018 06:52 PM (t82DG)

422 Speaking of the 1970s, your average middle class job couldn't support the 10-16% average interest on a mortgage. It took two jobs to be able to qualify for a mortgage and you needed to be able to put $5,000 on a $35,000 house before they would talk to you.

Posted by: The Great White Scotsman at July 31, 2018 06:15 PM (JUOKG)

My parents had to borrow $15K or so to buy a fixer upper (it started as a one room and each successive room was a step higher or lower than the other). My parents both worked but could not get a mortgage.

My best friend had a dad with a good paying job as a city cop. She grew up in a trailer park on the outskirts because they could not afford other housing, I had other friends whose fathers had to take their pickups with the camper tops to wherever they could find work and send money home.

If you asked, I think the father of my best friend would say his life was harder than his parents because he grew up in Detroit neighborhood of firemen and policemen. Nice little houses and safe streets.

My parents grew up with rationing and sustenance fishing and farming, so they think life is great now.

My father, oldest brother, and a neighbor started getting firewood from state land (you needed a permit for fallen trees only) because we had fuel oil furnaces.

Posted by: NaughtyPine at July 31, 2018 06:56 PM (/+bwe)

423 CNN is fake news. They don't mean anything nice about PDJT.

Posted by: torabora at July 31, 2018 08:05 PM (VYx0z)

424 167 I never get tired of saying this:

1% of a $20 trillion economy is $200 billion. This is how much bigger the economy will be at 3% growth rather than 2%. At 4%, it is $400 billion. Each year.
With compounding, over eight years, our country will be $6.3 trillion richer, about $3.3 trillion more than under Obama 2% growth scheme.

At say a 30% tax, that is $1 trillion more in taxes every single year. That solves most of our budget problems, assuming we simply control the growth of spending going forward. It also means we will be spending far less on welfare disability, medicaid, etc. Which means all sorts of pet ideas of the left, from renewable energy to free college becomes remarkably more viable.

So, given all of that, why would ANY democrat not support more growth, or the policies that accelerate growth?
Posted by: Dean Wormer at July 31, 2018 05:28 PM (ABH6n)

I'm with you, philosophically, but I think your math is way off.
If the annual 1% growth differential at 3% vs 2% of a $20 trillion (20,000 billion) economy is $200 billion, how do you come up with "$1 trillion (1,000 billion) more in taxes every single year?"
3% x 20,000 billion = 600 billion growth + 20,000 billion = 20,600 billion economy next year x .30 taxed = 6,180 billion fed tax revenue total per next annum.

Moreso, that's factoring for tax revenue inlay at 30%, which isn't the case on paper legally or in effective practice historically.

I hope I missed something....

Posted by: BuddyPC at August 01, 2018 05:06 PM (ktopl)

425 Receipts for 2017 were $3,316 billion, which was "only" 17.3% of GDP.

https://www.taxpolicycenter.org/statistics/federal-receipt-and-outlay-summary

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