I Never Knew This Had A Name

Feminist: All men are rapists.

OregonMuse: What, are you high? You know that's complete bullshit.

Feminist: No, it's not, it's why we need feminism -- to smash the patriarchy.

OregonMuse: Feminism is bullshit.

Feminist: You're obviously a h8r. "Feminism is the radical proposition that women are people, too." How could you be against that?

-----

Do you see what the feminist did there? She led with a controversial, hard-to-defend statement, and then, when pressed, retreated to a safe, no-sane-person-can-be-against-this platitude. And then pretended the two are the same. I've seen this in one form or another for years and it's just infuriating. But I never knew until about an hour ago that it has a name.

Ladies and gentlemen, behold, the Motte and Bailey trick:

Motte and bailey (MAB) is a combination of bait-and-switch and equivocation in which someone switches at will between a "motte" (an easy-to-defend and often common-sense statement, such as "culture shapes our experiences") and a "bailey" (a hard-to-defend and more controversial statement, such as "cultural knowledge is just as valid as scientific knowledge") in order to defend their viewpoint. Someone will "support" the easy-to-defend (motte) temporarily, to ward off critics, but does not actually believe what they're saying. The "difficult" (bailey) version always remains the desired belief, but is never actually defended. For all intents and purposes, the MAB'er is defending a "ghost" belief.

So MAB is a specie of the genus "bait and switch." I found this graphic on Twitter that illustrates the MAB with a couple of examples:


motte and bailey.jpg

It has suddenly occurred to me that the old "clown nose on/clown nose off" stunt that Jon Stewart pulled on Tucker Carlson to great effect could be seen as a kind of MAB sub-specie.

Anyway, that's all I've got this morning. Hopefully, ace will be here soon with some real content.

Posted by: OregonMuse at 11:31 AM




Comments

(Jump to bottom of page)

1 no way this is 1st

Posted by: IP at June 23, 2017 11:33 AM (UmSfZ)

2 It's female logic, no? Not just a trick of rhetoric.

Posted by: Ignoramus at June 23, 2017 11:33 AM (+7/1f)

3 I hate these stupid shrieking feminists; they give all of us women who get up everyday and get on with life without screeching and whining like harridans a bad rap. Gah.

Posted by: IC at June 23, 2017 11:34 AM (a0IVu)

4 This is basically all liberalism. It's how they frame every issue.

Posted by: joe, living dangerously at June 23, 2017 11:34 AM (34w2E)

5 Mottes are usually pretty good. That's why they are bon mottes.

Posted by: WitchDoktor, AKA VA GOP Sucks at June 23, 2017 11:34 AM (eytER)

6 I loved the motte and bailey in Lords of the Realm 2. So much easier to defend than a Norman keep (even with less hot oil).

Love to see medieval fortification references still used today.

Posted by: Revenant at June 23, 2017 11:34 AM (NUNXH)

7 I thought it was called sophistry, for the last 3,000 years or so, give or take a few hundred.

Posted by: Skandia Recluse at June 23, 2017 11:35 AM (m9X4Y)

8 I'll print that graphic out, it's worth longer consideration. Thanks!


Jim
Sunk New Dawn
Galveston, TX

Posted by: Jim at June 23, 2017 11:35 AM (v5iqM)

9 4. Awww.....don't you worry your pretty little head about that.

Posted by: Your Decidedly Devious Uncle Palpatine. All Honor & Glory to Kekistan! at June 23, 2017 11:35 AM (TwwWO)

10 I read MAB as MOAB. Better read it again.

Posted by: Under Fire at June 23, 2017 11:36 AM (l4aLi)

11 Holy Shit, why does everything of the left have to come with venn diagrams and flow charts??

Posted by: dananjcon at June 23, 2017 11:36 AM (WLK0w)

12 I feel a drink recipe coming on for Bluebell. I'm calling it the Motte and Bailey. You're promised a fine aged scotch, but you actually get a mat shooter.

Posted by: WitchDoktor, AKA VA GOP Sucks at June 23, 2017 11:36 AM (eytER)

13 Nice find, OM. I'm content with this content.

Posted by: Blanco Basura at June 23, 2017 11:36 AM (IZPn8)

14 Leftists do not defend themselves as individuals. They attack and then fall back to the group. They are sort of like hyenas.

Posted by: just another infidel at June 23, 2017 11:36 AM (E2MsH)

15 Early

Posted by: Anonosaurus Wrecks, the Unwoking Dead at June 23, 2017 11:37 AM (Nwg0u)

16 U want real content
U will take cofeve
U will get Chubble tweets of thought leading

Posted by: T Bone, Mr. T Bone at June 23, 2017 11:37 AM (3WkWU)

17 "Feminism is the radical proposition that women are people, too."

"And Men are not."

Posted by: Mr. Peebles at June 23, 2017 11:37 AM (oVJmc)

18 Motte's apple sauce is much easier to defend as an ice cream topping than Bailey's.

Posted by: Sporkatus at June 23, 2017 11:37 AM (eXSOZ)

19 so which one of those is 'Trump is literally Hitler'?

Posted by: Buzzsaw90 at June 23, 2017 11:37 AM (oGRue)

20 That explains 90%+ of conversations with a Lefty.

Posted by: Lizzy at June 23, 2017 11:38 AM (NOIQH)

21
I'll have a Motte Grande with whipped cream. Throw some Baileys in there too please.


Posted by: Guy Mohawk at June 23, 2017 11:38 AM (r+sAi)

22 That's why I like this place, it full of bon mots...and morons.



Posted by: dananjcon at June 23, 2017 11:38 AM (WLK0w)

23 After Bailey, Motte found the Hoople and the rest is history.

Posted by: the guy that moves pianos for a living at June 23, 2017 11:39 AM (x3uSY)

24 I never knew the name either. I described a variant earlier this morning on the HQ concerning Bubba Clinton's five-point "better schools/less crime/free shit" policy plans.

Posted by: Circa (Insert Year Here) at June 23, 2017 11:40 AM (B+qrE)

25 I just learned that there's such a thing as a Motte-and-bailey castle.

Huh.

Posted by: WitchDoktor, AKA VA GOP Sucks at June 23, 2017 11:40 AM (eytER)

26 They also will drop an inflammatory remark, and if challenged, change the subject or make a non sequitur joke. Not quite Motte and Baily, but carpet bomb with toxic comments and then not allow the person to refute/responde before dropping the next bomb.

That's Bill Maher's MO.

Posted by: Lizzy at June 23, 2017 11:40 AM (NOIQH)

27 or is this just being too dumb to understand your own point?

Posted by: Buzzsaw90 at June 23, 2017 11:41 AM (oGRue)

28 "Gender is a social construction"

MY gender is a surgical re-construction!!!

Posted by: Caitlyn Jenner at June 23, 2017 11:42 AM (xAvrH)

29 "Feminism is the radical proposition that bullshit statements such as "all men are rapists (except mohammadans)" are in some way sane.

Posted by: make me a sammich at June 23, 2017 11:42 AM (326rv)

30 very nice. Feminism has other names. Oh, I was referring to third through sixth wave feminism, of course, no one can disagree with first wave feminism.

also, we don't care about muslims beating their wives because we need to first achieve socialism here to achieve real justice everywhere.

Posted by: Jeb Bush's historic concession speech at June 23, 2017 11:42 AM (9xFrC)

31 A nitpick: species is the word you want to use here, not specie.

/annoying pedant

Posted by: stace with the BS degree at June 23, 2017 11:42 AM (pb2K/)

32 I've lost touch with friend over this very type of thing. Didn't know it had a name either.
Outside of politics he was a great person, so we avoided it and got along famously. Then TDS set in. White became black, cats became dogs, and I became the enemy.

Posted by: IP at June 23, 2017 11:42 AM (UmSfZ)

33 it sounds just like a husband and wife argument.
with both sides switching it up.

Posted by: willow at June 23, 2017 11:43 AM (v12G8)

34 Saudi Motte: Women are humans, but they are only marginally "people," and while they are less "people" than men, they are more "people" than furniture, lemons, or sand.

Saudi Bailey: Women are chairs.

Posted by: General Zod at June 23, 2017 11:43 AM (Bdeb0)

35 I know how to defend my own Bailey

Posted by: King Theoden at June 23, 2017 11:43 AM (oGRue)

36 Bookmarking' this one


Taking notes as well.

Posted by: Village Idiot's Apprentice at June 23, 2017 11:44 AM (J+eG2)

37 MY gender is a surgical re-construction!!!
Posted by: Caitlyn Jenner at June 23, 2017 11:42 AM (xAvrH)

---

What's good for the Bruce is good for the gender

Posted by: King Theoden at June 23, 2017 11:44 AM (oGRue)

38 A nitpick: species is the word you want to use here, not specie.
/annoying pedant
Posted by: stace with the BS degree at June 23, 2017 11:42 AM (pb2K/)


I thought "specie" was singular and "species" was plural and I was correct in using the singular form. No?

Posted by: OregonMuse, AoSHQ Thought Leader at June 23, 2017 11:44 AM (9d741)

39 feminist totally ignored the advocating for entry into America an actual Patriachy

Posted by: willow at June 23, 2017 11:44 AM (v12G8)

40 and dead silence with ali hirsi

Posted by: willow at June 23, 2017 11:44 AM (v12G8)

41 I don't mind saying, some of this is not my Bailey-wick.

Posted by: WitchDoktor, AKA VA GOP Sucks at June 23, 2017 11:44 AM (eytER)

42 13 Nice find, OM. I'm content with this content.
Posted by: Blanco Basura at June 23, 2017 11:36 AM (IZPn


Agreed. We are pleased. One thousand internets for CBD and all my people!

I can't wait to say or write, "oh you're just trying to pull off a Motte and Baily" and watch them go all confuseddogface while I sip my drank in triumph.

Posted by: mx4 at June 23, 2017 11:45 AM (uJqEF)

43 The only rational basis for altruistic behavior in human relationships is family. That is, a mother/father would give anything to help their child -- beyond what is strictly rational, risking life and limb, financial gain, social status, etc. No one would criticize someone helping a parent or sibling to the point of personal ruin. Well, at least doing so is rationally defensible. The left seeks to undermine family because they seek to replace the only rationally defensible altruistic motive -- love of family -- with the same unquestioning adherence to the goals of the state. The left says the government is family. Thus feminism is more important than motherhood and the promotion of homosexuality, and, separately, sexual deviancy. I dunno. I just hate them so much.

Posted by: Reverse Polish Notation at June 23, 2017 11:45 AM (QBQkV)

44 Leftists, can't live with them, can't live without them. Oh wait, yes we can!

Posted by: colfax mingo at June 23, 2017 11:45 AM (qJ+iT)

45 I've found a simple "Fuck off cvnt" works wonders with "feminists.

Posted by: Jukin the Deplorable and Profoundly Unserious at June 23, 2017 11:46 AM (npdX6)

46 and who among us didn't want to conquer Bailey Quarters back in the day?

Posted by: Buzzsaw90 at June 23, 2017 11:46 AM (oGRue)

47 Even more interesting is that a feminist would use a trick named after my testicles, Mr. Motte and Mr. Bailey [pleased to meet you].

Posted by: Sharkman at June 23, 2017 11:46 AM (0vLzt)

48 O.M., I'll have you know that you always post real content.

Posted by: Mark in Sandy UT at June 23, 2017 11:46 AM (xGX1p)

49 >>I never knew the name either. I described a variant earlier this
morning on the HQ concerning Bubba Clinton's five-point "better
schools/less crime/free shit" policy plans.


My favorite Bill Clinton trick was taking fierce stands against obviously awful things/for obvious things.

--He would announce with pride that he was for proper use of baby car seats!! --And with an air of moral superiority he would declare that he was absolutely against gang violence!!

Uh, OK, so is everybody else, pal!

Posted by: Lizzy at June 23, 2017 11:46 AM (NOIQH)

50 36 Bookmarking' this one


Taking notes as well.
Posted by: Village Idiot's Apprentice at June 23, 2017 11:44 AM (J+eG2)

---

who let James Comey back in?

Posted by: Buzzsaw90 at June 23, 2017 11:47 AM (oGRue)

51 Were you talking to Catharine Alice MacKinnon or one of her disciples? She and her acolytes are deranged.

Posted by: Locke Common at June 23, 2017 11:47 AM (zSXXo)

52 Bailey or Jennifer?

Posted by: Bertram Cabot, Jr. at June 23, 2017 11:47 AM (IqV8l)

53 Without their catechism of diagrams on unallowed thoughts, the Left would truly be in a morass of uncertainty. And True Believers would not have a handy checklist to see which pogrom is which.

Posted by: Anna Puma at June 23, 2017 11:47 AM (V3c+3)

54 and who among us didn't want to conquer Bailey Quarters back in the day?
Posted by: Buzzsaw90 at June 23, 2017 11:46 AM (oGRue)


Hey, I always preferred Bailey. Lonnie Anderson reminded me of an artificial barbie doll, but Jan Smithers looked like an actual, real person. She was very attractive.

Posted by: OregonMuse, AoSHQ Thought Leader at June 23, 2017 11:48 AM (9d741)

55 @31

Well, in the end, everything comes down to money.


Another good word is rhetoric, from the ancient Greek, means (mostly) to orate, to speak with the intent to persuade with some implied deception. Like the naked woman in the art class yesterday, her defense lawyer used his powers of persuasion to convince the jury to find the defendant not guilt of the charge of impiety by stripping her naked in front of a jury of men. See?

Posted by: Skandia Recluse at June 23, 2017 11:48 AM (m9X4Y)

56 52 Bailey or Jennifer?
Posted by: Bertram Cabot, Jr. at June 23, 2017 11:47 AM (IqV8l)


Bailey. Without hesitation.

Posted by: OregonMuse, AoSHQ Thought Leader at June 23, 2017 11:49 AM (9d741)

57 I thought "specie" was singular and "species" was plural and I was correct in using the singular form. No?
.....

Species is the singular when we're using binomial nomenclature, i.e. Genus and species. Specie is money.

Posted by: stace with the BS degree at June 23, 2017 11:49 AM (pb2K/)

58 I am against baby gangs!

Posted by: Bill Clinton at June 23, 2017 11:49 AM (IqV8l)

59 The left seeks to undermine family because they seek to replace the only rationally defensible altruistic motive -- love of family -- with the same unquestioning adherence to the goals of the state. The left says the government is family. Thus feminism is more important than motherhood and the promotion of homosexuality, and, separately, sexual deviancy. I dunno. I just hate them so much.
--

I never thought of it that way, but yes, you're correct.

And I kind of hate them too. And it's difficult, because I work with rabid and not rabid leftists in my job.

Most of the time i just think of the somewhat more rational ones (and there are some out there) as being a bit... disordered. But not dangerous.

Posted by: shibumi at June 23, 2017 11:49 AM (aT+Bx)

60
Here is an old article on stupid debating tricks.

http://tinyurl.com/ya44jlpc

One not mentioned is one that a local radio guy here used to hammer on callers for and he called it the 'dismissive laugh'. Basically instead of responding in the debate they try to dismiss it with a laugh as if your point isn't valid to even speak about. I see this all the time.

Posted by: Guy Mohawk at June 23, 2017 11:49 AM (r+sAi)

61 "who let James Comey back in?"

Heh!!!


No, in real life, this has about the same enlightenment to me as first reading about being gaslighted.


Sort of like "So that's what those fcukers are doing"

Posted by: Village Idiot's Apprentice at June 23, 2017 11:49 AM (J+eG2)

62 Charles Manson Motte: I didn't actually *kill* anyone, dig, and if the girls killed some people, maaaan, that's their trip, you dig that, I don't control no one, you understand, I'm just one little man, a little man, we're all just ants on this big blue marble...

Charles Manson Bailey: Everything else, including the motte.

Posted by: General Zod at June 23, 2017 11:49 AM (Bdeb0)

63 "Atheism is just a lack of belief in God."


I've heard this before, and as a non-believer, it strikes me as dishonest. I like to think of it by what I call a "Tarzan Analogy".

Let's say you find Tarzan in the jungle, and tell him about theology. He might honestly say "those concepts never occurred to me before! When I was in the jungle, I had a lack of belief in God".

But of course no atheist is in that position, not even people like John Loftus. They have heard at least some of the arguments for theism, mulled them over, and rejected them. So they need to state it positively as they used to, ie. "atheism is the belief that God does not exist".

Posted by: Steve and Cold Bear at June 23, 2017 11:49 AM (xAvrH)

64 Riddle me this, Fair 'Ettes and Strong 'Rons,

How does a national party/ideology think it can succeed by using only the debate tactics that anyone who takes up debate as a junior high activity is trained not to use?

Posted by: Sherry McEvil, Stiletto Corsettes, who is not a vinegar-c**ted hag, thank you very much. at June 23, 2017 11:50 AM (kXoT0)

65 52 Bailey or Jennifer?
Posted by: Bertram Cabot, Jr. at June 23, 2017 11:47 AM (IqV8l)

----

I'll be in my 'office'

Posted by: Les N at June 23, 2017 11:50 AM (oGRue)

66 I am against other people raping women!

Posted by: Bubba Clinton at June 23, 2017 11:50 AM (326rv)

67 Were you talking to Catharine Alice MacKinnon or one of her disciples? She and her acolytes are deranged.
Posted by: Locke Common at June 23, 2017 11:47 AM (zSXXo)


The conversation was an artificial construct, like a chess study rather than a position from an actual game. But it might just as well come from trying to talk with MacKinnon. Or Andrea Dworkin.

Posted by: OregonMuse, AoSHQ Thought Leader at June 23, 2017 11:50 AM (9d741)

68 Yeah, mott and bailey is a technical term in castle architecture.
The bailey is what the bailiff is in charge of.

England was awash with "simple" motte and bailey castles. Every hilltop.
Simple, I ask? You ever try to build a motte?
In this neighborhood, all I have is a bailey.

I never knew it was a form of argument. Must be my BPD...

Posted by: Stringer Davis at June 23, 2017 11:51 AM (H5rtT)

69
Hey, I always preferred Bailey. Lonnie Anderson reminded me of an
artificial barbie doll, but Jan Smithers looked like an actual, real
person. She was very attractive.


Those were the days when they still made jeans that fit.

Posted by: Mr. Peebles at June 23, 2017 11:51 AM (oVJmc)

70 57, or I should say "species" is both singular and plural.

Posted by: stace with the BS degree at June 23, 2017 11:52 AM (pb2K/)

71 A nitpick: species is the word you want to use here, not specie.

/annoying pedant
Posted by: stace with the BS degree
----------

Hands stace a coin of the realm.

Posted by: Mike Hammer, etc., etc. at June 23, 2017 11:52 AM (OdK9v)

72 Specie is money.

Posted by: stace with the BS degree at June 23, 2017 11:49 AM (pb2K/)

I thought good food was money

Posted by: MAC SOG at June 23, 2017 11:52 AM (QPdNE)

73 >>So they need to state it positively as they used to, ie. "atheism is the belief that God does not exist". Posted by: Steve and Cold Bear at June 23, 2017 11:49 AM (xAvrH)

Or that the evidence on offer is, at least presently, insufficient to compel. As you note, the "just" is a cop-out.

Posted by: General Zod at June 23, 2017 11:52 AM (Bdeb0)

74 66 I am against other people raping women!
Posted by: Bubba Clinton at June 23, 2017 11:50 AM (326rv)

----

which would make it a threesome, ya perv

Posted by: buzzsaw90 at June 23, 2017 11:52 AM (oGRue)

75 Love to see medieval fortification references still used today.
Pussies.

Posted by: zombie marquis de vauban at June 23, 2017 11:53 AM (nlbfN)

76 A midwestern co-ed meets a northeastern co-ed and begins a conversation by asking the northeasstern girl "where are you from"?
She replies "where I come from we do not end a sentence with a preposition". The midwestern girl replies "so where are you from, bitch"?

Posted by: colfax mingo at June 23, 2017 11:53 AM (qJ+iT)

77
Simple, I ask? You ever try to build a motte?
In this neighborhood, all I have is a bailey.


Do you have alligators in your motte?

Posted by: Bertram Cabot, Jr. at June 23, 2017 11:53 AM (IqV8l)

78 Species is the singular when we're using binomial nomenclature, i.e. Genus and species. Specie is money.
Posted by: stace with the BS degree at June 23, 2017 11:49 AM (pb2K/)


Oh, right. Duh. I should've known that.

Posted by: OregonMuse, AoSHQ Thought Leader at June 23, 2017 11:54 AM (9d741)

79 72 Specie is money.

Posted by: stace with the BS degree at June 23, 2017 11:49 AM (pb2K/)

I thought good food was money
Posted by: MAC SOG at June 23, 2017 11:52 AM (QPdNE)

---

when i shoot from beyond the arc, that Money.

Posted by: Barck Obama at June 23, 2017 11:54 AM (oGRue)

80 *rummages on blog*

Oh Oregon Muse, you might be interested in this
http://annapuna.blogspot.com/2005/11/men-are-predators.html

Posted by: Anna Puma at June 23, 2017 11:54 AM (V3c+3)

81
Bill Clinton was the king of platitudes. Barak Obama was the queen of strawmen.

Posted by: Guy Mohawk at June 23, 2017 11:55 AM (r+sAi)

82 This graphic is incomplete without the use of the word "vagina" at least 5 times.

Posted by: Fritz at June 23, 2017 11:55 AM (2Mnv1)

83 One not mentioned is one that a local radio guy here used to hammer on callers for and he called it the 'dismissive laugh'. Basically instead of responding in the debate they try to dismiss it with a laugh as if your point isn't valid to even speak about. I see this all the time.
Posted by: Guy Mohawk
------------
The Joe Biden Gambit

Posted by: Mike Hammer, etc., etc. at June 23, 2017 11:55 AM (OdK9v)

84 "52 Bailey or Jennifer?"


The power of "and" power of and.

Posted by: Jukin the Deplorable and Profoundly Unserious at June 23, 2017 11:56 AM (npdX6)

85 >>Bill Clinton was the king of platitudes. Barak Obama was the queen of strawmen. Posted by: Guy Mohawk at June 23, 2017 11:55 AM (r+sAi)

Joe Biden was the emperor of ice cream.

Posted by: General Zod at June 23, 2017 11:56 AM (Bdeb0)

86 " 72 Specie is money.

Posted by: stace with the BS degree at June 23, 2017 11:49 AM (pb2K/)

I thought good food was money
Posted by: MAC SOG at June 23, 2017 11:52 A"

So holding a bucket of scat don't mean I'm rich?


*Sad trombone*

Posted by: Village Idiot's Apprentice at June 23, 2017 11:57 AM (J+eG2)

87 Edoras = Bailey
Helm's Deep = Motte

Tolkien knew his Medieval shit.

Posted by: Bat Chain Puller at June 23, 2017 11:57 AM (Yi9Gb)

88 How does a national party/ideology think it can succeed by using only the debate tactics that anyone who takes up debate as a junior high activity is trained not to use?
---

You're overthinking. Their tactics are emotion based, not logic based. Debate is logic based.

And the party leadership either never took part in high school debate, or has decided that those ineffective tactcs are totes OK.

Posted by: shibumi at June 23, 2017 11:57 AM (aT+Bx)

89 Oh, right. Duh. I should've known that.
Posted by: OregonMuse, AoSHQ Thought Leader at June 23, 2017 11:54 AM (9d741)

Nah, it's just a stupid pet peeve of mine, having gradumecated from cow college.

Posted by: stace at June 23, 2017 11:57 AM (pb2K/)

90 How does a national party/ideology think it can succeed by using only the debate tactics that anyone who takes up debate as a junior high activity is trained not to use?

---

What percentage of people are trained in debate at a JH level?

Posted by: joe, living dangerously at June 23, 2017 11:57 AM (KUaJL)

91
Joe Biden was the emperor of ice cream.
--

No, it's paste. The Emperor of Paste.

Posted by: shibumi at June 23, 2017 11:58 AM (aT+Bx)

92 "What percentage of people are trained in debate at a JH level?"

Most liberals that I know debate in the "TrigglyPuff" style

Posted by: Village Idiot's Apprentice at June 23, 2017 11:58 AM (J+eG2)

93 So here's the obvious question.

How best to DEFEAT this tactic.

I'm going with "don't be sidetracked when the user of this switches back and forth."

Or the "Porkins tactic" as I'm going to call it.

Posted by: GMan at June 23, 2017 11:59 AM (sxq57)

94 So holding a bucket of scat don't mean I'm rich?
>>>

It is worth quite a bit if you got it from me.

Posted by: Civet Cat at June 23, 2017 11:59 AM (r5KeJ)

95 and I thought Motte and Bailey was a company that made butt lube in SF.

Posted by: Fisht at June 23, 2017 11:59 AM (zOqbT)

96 Read the RationalWiki link. What's missing from that discussion is any way to defeat that logical fallacy.

Posted by: Alberta Oil Peon at June 23, 2017 11:59 AM (XUcIQ)

97 87 Edoras = Bailey
Helm's Deep = Motte

Tolkien knew his Medieval shit.

-----

Deeping wall = Bailey
Hornburg = Motte

/annoying nerd pedant

Posted by: Barck Obama at June 23, 2017 12:00 PM (oGRue)

98 The Joe Biden Gambit
The Joe Biden Gambit is when you take the dismissive laugh tactic and then get all handsy with it to the point it's bizarre and creepy.

No, really. It's like he actually found a way to molest an argumentative tactic.

Posted by: Sporkatus at June 23, 2017 12:00 PM (eXSOZ)

99 How does a national party/ideology think it can succeed by using only the debate tactics that anyone who takes up debate as a junior high activity is trained not to use?
---

You're overthinking. Their tactics are emotion based, not logic based. Debate is logic based.

And the party leadership either never took part in high school debate, or has decided that those ineffective tactcs are totes OK.
Posted by: shibumi


They're playing to the MFM and the worst of the electorate. And as we've seen, most of them are venal and stupid.
What's galling is listening to useful idiots for Clinton, Obama and Biden whining about the coarseness of Trump.

Posted by: Blue Hen at June 23, 2017 12:00 PM (326rv)

100 Changes in platitudes. Changes in attitudes.

Posted by: Bertram Cabot, Jr. at June 23, 2017 12:00 PM (IqV8l)

101 Any word on if Captain Sparrow is going to get a visit from the Secret Service?

Posted by: Brave Sir Robin at June 23, 2017 12:00 PM (ty7RM)

102 I would wager that a fair bit of this feminism, gender, and racial politics we see raging about us is the Leftists infighting to see who will be left in charge of the rotting hulk of the Rainbow Coalition when they finally wrest control from the Clinton, Pelosi, Sanders et cetera folks.

Even broke as a joke and rotting from the head, middle, and toes, there's a lot of graft, money, power, and other juicy stuff to be had by whomever gets control.

For decades, it's been promised that People of Color would be the new top rats, but, the People of Sexual Identity/Preference Politics or the Intersectional Feminists think it should be them.

Infighting over limited resources is always the bane of a coalition, particularly when a power vacuum forms in the leadership and Hillary and BJ have sucked the juice from DNC down to its twisted gnarled toenails.

Posted by: Sherry McEvil, Stiletto Corsettes, who is not a vinegar-c**ted hag, thank you very much. at June 23, 2017 12:00 PM (kXoT0)

103 Here's another stupid leftist rhetorical tactic -

the AP has an article about Barky's latest vacation:

BALI, Indonesia (AP) -- Former U.S. President Barack Obama and his family arrived Friday on the resort island of Bali to begin a vacation in Indonesia, where he lived for several years as a child, officials said.

"Several years" ... he was only there for a little bit. More like FIVE YEARS, and five of the most important years in shaping a person's deep world view, from age 5 to 10. Pretty much all of Barky's vhildhood memories are of Indonesia. He is, at his core, Indonesian.

But the AP chose to downplay all that with the fuzzy and small "several".

Posted by: ThePrimordialOrderedPair at June 23, 2017 12:01 PM (rZ+mb)

104 So if someone says that dogs, horses, birds, fish, and every other thing on the planet has fairly distinct breeds with predictable and defining characteristics but all humans are the same, is that a motte or a bailey?

Posted by: Hate Has No Homo at June 23, 2017 12:01 PM (c2K1w)

105 How does a national party/ideology think it can succeed by using only the debate tactics that anyone who takes up debate as a junior high activity is trained not to use?

---

What percentage of people are trained in debate at a JH level?



Their opponents?

Posted by: rickb223 at June 23, 2017 12:01 PM (j+h+K)

106
Parts of a castle aren't they (motte and bailey)?

Posted by: Krebs v Carnot: Epic Battle of the Cycling Stars (TM) at June 23, 2017 12:01 PM (pNxlR)

107 http://annapuna.blogspot.com/2005/11/men-are-predators.html

Hey! Whether or not I sexually identify as the holiest race, the ancient yautja, is my own business.

Posted by: Sporkatus at June 23, 2017 12:02 PM (eXSOZ)

108 O/T - Some silliness for a Friday:

What's your social justice super hero name?


[your undiagnosed mental illness]
+
[The weapon you used at your last peaceful protest]"


https://twitter.com/DonovanPaisley/status/856162358233837569

Posted by: Lizzy at June 23, 2017 12:02 PM (NOIQH)

109 Read the RationalWiki link. What's missing from that discussion is any way to defeat that logical fallacy.

I bet it's just the Porkins Tactic. Stay on target. Don't get sidetracked.

Of course, that *did* end badly for poor Porkins, but it might work here.

Posted by: GMan at June 23, 2017 12:02 PM (sxq57)

110 Read the RationalWiki link. What's missing from that discussion is any way to defeat that logical fallacy.

Posted by: Alberta Oil Peon at June 23, 2017 11:59 AM (XUcIQ)

Sure there is. The easiest way to defeat an ambush, and this is what this tactic is, is to charge directly at the incoming fire.

Instead of letting them retreat to safe space you keep assaulting until there is no safe space.

Posted by: Tim in Illinois at June 23, 2017 12:02 PM (sf2BM)

111 A motte she s best defended by an alligator.

Posted by: @votermom's phone at June 23, 2017 12:03 PM (72UeA)

112 63 "Atheism is just a lack of belief in God."

That starts off with a baldfaced lie right there.

AGNOSTICISM is a lack of belief in God, combined with the idea that we just don't know.

ATHEISM is the absolute faith in the position that there is NO GOD. It is as much of a religion as any other.

Posted by: Tom Servo at June 23, 2017 12:03 PM (V2Yro)

113 Hillary and BJ have sucked the juice from DNC down to its twisted gnarled toenails.

Now that is imagery... makes me want to watch the movie Lifeforce.

https://youtu.be/ItWJu2GFEr4

Posted by: Anna Puma at June 23, 2017 12:03 PM (V3c+3)

114 ATHEISM is the absolute faith in the position that there is NO GOD. It is as much of a religion as any other.

Posted by: Tom Servo at June 23, 2017 12:03 PM (V2Yro)


---

It's the worst kind, probably. Do you know of any more evangelical types?

Posted by: Hate Has No Homo at June 23, 2017 12:04 PM (c2K1w)

115 Thanks, Muse. It's handy to have a short phrase or acronym for something that needs a longer explanation.

Posted by: Corona at June 23, 2017 12:04 PM (d7XKk)

116 When Ryan debated Biden I was wincing.

Posted by: Under Fire at June 23, 2017 12:04 PM (l4aLi)

117 Sure there is. The easiest way to defeat an ambush, and this is what this tactic is, is to charge directly at the incoming fire.

Instead of letting them retreat to safe space you keep assaulting until there is no safe space.
Posted by: Tim
------------

And, as I point out regularly, do not compromise when they say "Well, we'll just have to agree to disagree."

Posted by: Mike Hammer, etc., etc. at June 23, 2017 12:04 PM (OdK9v)

118 So here's the obvious question.

How best to DEFEAT this tactic.

I'm going with "don't be sidetracked when the user of this switches back and forth."

Or the "Porkins tactic" as I'm going to call it.
Posted by: GMan at June 23, 2017 11:59 AM (sxq57)

So far, I like the Trump plan, point out the fakery, ridicule it, and then dare them to try and prove it. They always take the bait and subsequenty prove his point.

Posted by: Sherry McEvil, Stiletto Corsettes, who is not a vinegar-c**ted hag, thank you very much. at June 23, 2017 12:04 PM (kXoT0)

119 BALI, Indonesia (AP) -- Former U.S. President Barack Obama and his family arrived Friday on the resort island of Bali to begin a vacation in Indonesia, where he lived for several years as a child, officials said.

"Vacation?"

ANOTHER one? Wasn't he on "vacation" in Tahiti for all but a few weeks since January....?

Posted by: WitchDoktor, AKA VA GOP Sucks at June 23, 2017 12:05 PM (PFy0L)

120 " It's like he actually found a way to molest an argumentative tactic."

Blazing Saddles Hedley Lamarr molesting justice


Posted by: Mudd at June 23, 2017 12:05 PM (cfHE9)

121 Instead of letting them retreat to safe space you keep assaulting until there is no safe space.

Yep.

In that conversation above, when the lefty idiot said, "You're obviously a h8r. "Feminism is the radical proposition that women are people, too." How could you be against that?"

You *should* respond with something like "we're talking about how you think all men are rapists, not what you define feminism as. Try again."

And keep repeating that until the idiot goes away or tries to unsuccessfully defend its points.

Posted by: GMan at June 23, 2017 12:05 PM (sxq57)

122 When Ryan debated Biden I was wincing.

Posted by: Under Fire at June 23, 2017 12:04 PM (l4aLi)


It was like watching one of the loser brackets in the middleweight boxing competition at the Special Olympics.

Posted by: ThePrimordialOrderedPair at June 23, 2017 12:05 PM (rZ+mb)

123 "Several years" ... he was only there for a little bit. More like FIVE YEARS, and five of the most important years in shaping a person's deep world view, from age 5 to 10. Pretty much all of Barky's vhildhood memories are of Indonesia. He is, at his core, Indonesian.

Call it the Pernicious Paraphrase, or the Dissumulating Synonym. "Here's a phrasing of something which is technically true, but contextually implies something else which is false, and nobody would state it that way other than to conceal something or misrepresent".

Posted by: Sporkatus at June 23, 2017 12:06 PM (eXSOZ)

124 119 BALI, Indonesia (AP) -- Former U.S. President Barack Obama and his family arrived Friday on the resort island of Bali to begin a vacation in Indonesia, where he lived for several years as a child, officials said.

"Vacation?"

ANOTHER one? Wasn't he on "vacation" in Tahiti for all but a few weeks since January....?
Posted by: WitchDoktor, AKA VA GOP Sucks at June 23, 2017 12:05 PM (PFy0L)

That's his strength zone, his sweet spot in life, what he does best--that and patting himself on the back.

Posted by: Northernlurker, Phillips screwdriver of the gods at June 23, 2017 12:06 PM (hJrjt)

125 In that conversation above, when the lefty idiot said, "You're obviously a h8r. "Feminism is the radical proposition that women are people, too." How could you be against that?"

You *should* respond with something like





have you stopped beating your significant other?

Posted by: rickb223 at June 23, 2017 12:06 PM (j+h+K)

126 But I just wanted to save the Building and Loan.

Posted by: George Bailey at June 23, 2017 12:06 PM (RFeQD)

127 What is Bali's extradition policy?

Posted by: Under Fire at June 23, 2017 12:06 PM (l4aLi)

128 have you stopped beating your significant other?

Ha, that would work too.

Posted by: GMan at June 23, 2017 12:07 PM (sxq57)

129 I bet it's just the Porkins Tactic. Stay on target. Don't get sidetracked.

Posted by: GMan at June 23, 2017 12:02 PM (sxq57)


Wait. Porkins stayed on target, and look what happened to him.

Perhaps this needs a better name...?

Posted by: OregonMuse, AoSHQ Thought Leader at June 23, 2017 12:08 PM (9d741)

130 Posted by: Sporkatus at June 23, 2017 12:06 PM (eXSOZ)

Pernicious Paraphrase ... I like it. Then I can just tell a lefty, "You're all Pee-Pee'd up".

Posted by: ThePrimordialOrderedPair at June 23, 2017 12:09 PM (rZ+mb)

131
You're overthinking. Their tactics are emotion based, not logic based. Debate is logic based.

Towson debate team?

Posted by: Bertram Cabot, Jr. at June 23, 2017 12:09 PM (IqV8l)

132 "Several years" ... he was only there for a little bit. More like FIVE
YEARS, and five of the most important years in shaping a person's deep
world view, from age 5 to 10. Pretty much all of Barky's vhildhood
memories are of Indonesia. He is, at his core, Indonesian.


---

Wait, the same years that little boys who happen to like the color pink for a month or two are being groomed into suicidal men who can never be the biological women their abusive "progressive" parents know they are?

Those years? Weird. Yeah, it does seem like I've recently heard that those years are extremely important in development and ideals.

Posted by: Hate Has No Homo at June 23, 2017 12:09 PM (c2K1w)

133 Just read in Breitbart that Obama is returning to the campaign trail to stop the run of Democratic losses. Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha.
I guess he doesn't remember that apart from his own re-election he has been guaranteed disaster on the campaign trail.
Of course remembering is hard when you smoke enough choom.

Posted by: Northernlurker, Phillips screwdriver of the gods at June 23, 2017 12:10 PM (hJrjt)

134 Motte: "You love me, I'm sure you want to please me."

Bailey: "I promise I won't do that thing in your mouth."

Posted by: Peenis Envy at June 23, 2017 12:10 PM (8iiMU)

135 When feminists say that all men are rapists, what they're really saying is that one night they got blind drunk and woke up the next morning with a fat, ugly guy.

Posted by: Soona at June 23, 2017 12:10 PM (Fmupd)

136 And if you're really winning the argument, there's the ultimate female weapon. Crying.

Posted by: tu3031 at June 23, 2017 12:10 PM (qJhUV)

137 >>Former U.S. President Barack Obama and his family arrived Friday on the
resort island of Bali to begin a vacation in Indonesia, where he lived
for several years as a child, officials said.


Interesting which vacations he takes alone, takes with Michell, or takes the kids, eh?

Posted by: Lizzy at June 23, 2017 12:11 PM (NOIQH)

138 So, all those references in Victorian literature to 'her motte' were early feminist dog whistles?

Posted by: Duncanthrax at June 23, 2017 12:11 PM (DMUuz)

139 I have not tried adding Baileys to my Motte, perhaps this weekend.

Posted by: Vashta Nerada at June 23, 2017 12:11 PM (7ZVPa)

140 More like FIVE YEARS, and five of the most important years in shaping a person's deep world view, from age 5 to 10. Pretty much all of Barky's vhildhood memories are of Indonesia. He is, at his core, Indonesian.

He has a yen for Indonesian deep dish dog. Genuine, not the culturally appropriative American variety.

Maybe when he comes back, he'll send bluebell the recipe.

Posted by: Steve and Cold Bear at June 23, 2017 12:12 PM (xAvrH)

141 I guess he doesn't remember that apart from his own re-election he has been guaranteed disaster on the campaign trail.
Of course remembering is hard when you smoke enough choom.
Posted by: Northernlurker

On the campaign trail? Well I hope he leaves a trail of breadcrumbs so he can find his way back to his house.

Posted by: Bossy Conservative....outlaw in America at June 23, 2017 12:12 PM (RFeQD)

142 Yes, Obama. Please return to the campaign trail and be very vocal in speaking out about Trump, the economy, jobs, global warming/cooling decisions, etc. Even more violence against peaceful people who disagree with (D)s politically might be a great idea, too.

Posted by: Hate Has No Homo at June 23, 2017 12:12 PM (c2K1w)

143 I've heard this before, and as a non-believer, it strikes me as dishonest. I like to think of it by what I call a "Tarzan Analogy".

Let's say you find Tarzan in the jungle, and tell him about theology. He might honestly say "those concepts never occurred to me before! When I was in the jungle, I had a lack of belief in God".

But of course no atheist is in that position, not even people like John Loftus. They have heard at least some of the arguments for theism, mulled them over, and rejected them. So they need to state it positively as they used to, ie. "atheism is the belief that God does not exist".


I have seen the 'lack of belief in God" thing used is retarded ways i.e. (seriously) "People are naturally atheists because babies lack a belief in God" . I tend to eschew the idea that its about "belief" and its more in the realm of opinion: "I think there likely is no God." and all the argument is about how strongly I hold my opinion.

But if one was to go transculturally (dude) then the "lack of beleif in God" becomes more useful. Some Buddhists are atheists, for example. Or some animists. The whole "God" thing isn't very important to them, so it kinda makes definitional sense. But lumping them in with Dawkins is probably a mistake.............

Posted by: Alcoholic Asshole Shut In at June 23, 2017 12:12 PM (CPk08)

144 One of the truly sad things about this form of argument is people arguing from emotion rather than logic is what the colleges are producing. These kids get A grades when they spout this bs, which is what the colleges want because they are no longer in the business of producing an educated person. All they produce is bitter, silly, immature, and unemployable infants who now owe tens of thousands of dollars in student loans.

Posted by: Sherry McEvil, Stiletto Corsettes, who is not a vinegar-c**ted hag, thank you very much. at June 23, 2017 12:12 PM (kXoT0)

145 Just read in Breitbart that Obama is returning to the campaign trail to
stop the run of Democratic losses. Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha.

Hey! That's great news!

Posted by: Not Senator Martha "Marsha" Coakley at June 23, 2017 12:13 PM (qJhUV)

146 >>Towson debate team?


That was an 'Emperor has no clothes' moment.
Worse that the fictional Idiocracy.

Posted by: Lizzy at June 23, 2017 12:13 PM (NOIQH)

147 I certainly hope that there are no terrorist attacks at or near wherever the perpetually vacationing ex President is.

Posted by: FenelonSpoke at June 23, 2017 12:13 PM (qES5k)

148 43 The only rational basis for altruistic behavior in human relationships is family. That is, a mother/father would give anything to help their child -- beyond what is strictly rational, risking life and limb, financial gain, social status, etc. No one would criticize someone helping a parent or sibling to the point of personal ruin. Well, at least doing so is rationally defensible. The left seeks to undermine family because they seek to replace the only rationally defensible altruistic motive -- love of family -- with the same unquestioning adherence to the goals of the state. The left says the government is family. Thus feminism is more important than motherhood and the promotion of homosexuality, and, separately, sexual deviancy. I dunno. I just hate them so much.
Posted by: Reverse Polish Notation at June 23, 2017 11:45 AM (QBQkV)


As a huge fan of sexual deviancy, can we agree to dislike feminism and not get into the other stuff?

Posted by: mx4 at June 23, 2017 12:14 PM (uJqEF)

149 This reminds me of how people will try to legitimize a conspiracy theory by referencing a former different conspiracy as if one conspiracy proves other unrelated conspiracies to be true.

Dogs will bite you. Hey, that brown dog down the street bit somebody. Proof!

Posted by: Meremortal at June 23, 2017 12:14 PM (3myMJ)

150 Interesting which vacations he takes alone, takes with Michell, or takes the kids, eh?
Posted by: Lizzy

Barack Obama
The most interesting vacationer in the world.

What an utterly vacuous person he actually is.

Maybe he should have been a travel agent?

Posted by: Bossy Conservative....outlaw in America at June 23, 2017 12:14 PM (RFeQD)

151 114 ATHEISM is the absolute faith in the position that there is NO GOD. It is as much of a religion as any other.

Posted by: Tom Servo at June 23, 2017 12:03 PM (V2Yro)


Nah. That just ain't so. Sorry.

Posted by: Alcoholic Asshole Shut In at June 23, 2017 12:14 PM (CPk08)

152 Sure there is. The easiest way to defeat an ambush, and this is what this tactic is, is to charge directly at the incoming fire.

Instead of letting them retreat to safe space you keep assaulting until there is no safe space.

Posted by: Tim in Illinois at June 23, 2017 12:02 PM (sf2BM)

Well, that there is a counter, but it was not spelled out in the Rational Wiki link.

Posted by: Alberta Oil Peon at June 23, 2017 12:15 PM (XUcIQ)

153 In line at the h8 shake place.

Posted by: rickb223 at June 23, 2017 12:15 PM (j+h+K)

154 On the campaign trail? Well I hope he leaves a trail of breadcrumbs so he can find his way back to his house.
Posted by: Bossy Conservative....outlaw in America
__________

Nom nom nom

Posted by: Happy-Go-Lucky Michelle at June 23, 2017 12:15 PM (j+dfT)

155 But this Motte Bailey trick (never knew it had a name either) only works when the user isn't called out on it. A simple "You said This just a minute ago, which has absolutely nothing to do with That" kills that shit totes quick.

But it also makes the user of the tactic look like the dishonest prick that they are ... and very few people have the will to humiliate their opponent in that manner.

Like I've said time and time again ... beating Progs ain't hard. You just have to have the Will to do it. Most don't ... and Progs know it.

FWIW ... my wife does the same shit. All the time.

Posted by: ScoggDog at June 23, 2017 12:15 PM (leSDf)

156 *arches an eyebrow while smacking the palm of one hand with her riding crop as a cat-ear flicks towards a faint sound*

"Sexual deviancy? What the Yiff?"

Posted by: Anna Puma at June 23, 2017 12:16 PM (V3c+3)

157 which is what the colleges want because they are no
longer in the business of producing an educated person...

Posted by: Sherry McEvil, Stiletto Corsettes, who is not a
vinegar-c**ted hag, thank you very much. at June 23, 2017 12:12 PM
(kXoT0)


---

Oh, they're educating them all right. It's just not in academics. They're teaching them fine lessons in remorse, regret, and useful endeavors, though. Shame they won't understand the lessons until five or so years into trying to pay back $40K in student loans with a job they could've gotten in high school if they had tried.

Posted by: Hate Has No Homo at June 23, 2017 12:16 PM (c2K1w)

158 Dogma will also bite you. At the most inopportune and painful of times.

Posted by: Anna Puma at June 23, 2017 12:17 PM (V3c+3)

159 Obama back in Bali, eh? Well, maybe they will name a madrasah in his honor.

Posted by: IC at June 23, 2017 12:17 PM (a0IVu)

160 That's not my dogma.

Posted by: Inspector Clouseau at June 23, 2017 12:17 PM (IqV8l)

161 Ace has content? Did he bag a hobo or put more shelves up?

Posted by: Killerdog at June 23, 2017 12:17 PM (avagT)

162 I have always found that the statement

"What you just said has no relation to the argument, let's get back to your original flawed premise"

tends to silence them.

Posted by: Vashta Nerada at June 23, 2017 12:18 PM (7ZVPa)

163 127 What is Bali's extradition policy?
Posted by: Under Fire at June 23, 2017 12:06 PM (l4aLi)

---

you can never get the boobs out

Posted by: Barck Obama at June 23, 2017 12:18 PM (oGRue)

164 ANOTHER one? Wasn't he on "vacation" in Tahiti for all but a few weeks since January....?

Posted by: WitchDoktor, AKA VA GOP Sucks at June 23, 2017 12:05 PM (PFy0L)

He's been working so hard you know. Or did he see that disgusting news report about the scum in Bali hunting and brutally killing dogs to sell their meat as sate to unsuspecting tourists, and wants to get some before it's all gone?

Posted by: Alberta Oil Peon at June 23, 2017 12:18 PM (XUcIQ)

165 There's an inversion apparent in Motte and Bailey arguments, too. Specifically, if we know which Bailey is associated with which Motte, it becomes possible to use the Motte as a dog whistle for the Bailey. It can be disavowed to an enemy, and winked for the friendly.

Example, "A woman's right to choose":
Motte, strong-seeming position that the woman has a say in whether she will have children or not.
Bailey (and what is thereby dogwhistled to the true believer): "A woman has the right to take *any means necessary* to not have children, up to and including infanticide".

It's useful to be able to dogwhistle in this way, because usually the extreme position feels more empowering.

Posted by: Sporkatus at June 23, 2017 12:19 PM (eXSOZ)

166 FWIW ... my wife does the same shit. All the time.

Posted by: ScoggDog at June 23, 2017 12:15 PM (leSDf)


---

Same here. And I'm convinced she has absolutely no idea of what she says from one moment to the next in that two or three minutes of raised-voices when she's decided we haven't met our argument quota for the week. It's all just in pursuit of a goal, just like the feminist example.

Posted by: Hate Has No Homo at June 23, 2017 12:19 PM (c2K1w)

167 * looks up, irritated, sighs *

What is it this time, Barry?

* shakes head *

No, and this is the third time I've had to tell you this: There aren't any interesting Italians around to have dinner with.

* listens *

Look, Barry, we're in Malaysia. There aren't that many--

* listens, exhales *

Malaysia is a country, Barry. Now why don't you go see if there's something good on TV?

Posted by: Valerie Jarrett at June 23, 2017 12:19 PM (j+dfT)

168 My karma ran over your dogma.

Posted by: Bossy Conservative....outlaw in America at June 23, 2017 12:20 PM (RFeQD)

169 It's the worst kind, probably. Do you know of any more evangelical types?

Posted by: Hate Has No Homo


Some are evangelical. Dawkins for one. I'm not evangelical, precisely because apart from their distrust in theology, I don't share one single belief with any of them. People who are religious believe things that are unverifiable to a sufficient degree, IMHO (such as events recorded in the Bible). Most atheists, OTOH, believe a SHITLOAD of stupid shit that is VERIFIABLY FALSE. So most atheists are far more stupid than the religious people they mock. Van Til's revenge.

Posted by: Steve and Cold Bear at June 23, 2017 12:20 PM (xAvrH)

170 I've met athiests who refer to themselves as "non-believers". They don't believe in the existence of any Supreme being, and thus the need or want of any religion.

I've also met anti theists. These seem to be non believers who actively hate religion and non religionists. Except mohammadans.

Posted by: Blue Hen at June 23, 2017 12:21 PM (326rv)

171 Sure there is. The easiest way to defeat an ambush, and this is what this tactic is, is to charge directly at the incoming fire.

Instead of letting them retreat to safe space you keep assaulting until there is no safe space.

Posted by: Tim in Illinois at June 23, 2017 12:02 PM (sf2BM)


Yep. Relentlessly eschew emotion, keep the discussion focused on definitions and facts, and go straight for the contrast between the Motte and bailey. "Now you are saying X, but what you originally said is Y, and the contrast is stark. This demonstrates that what people often mean when they say X is really Y. "

Posted by: Alcoholic Asshole Shut In at June 23, 2017 12:21 PM (CPk08)

172 Infighting over limited resources is always the bane of a coalition, particularly when a power vacuum forms in the leadership and Hillary and BJ have sucked the juice from DNC down to its twisted gnarled toenails.
Posted by: Sherry McEvil, Stiletto Corsettes, who is not a vinegar-c**ted hag, thank you very much. at June 23, 2017 12:00 PM (kXoT0)


Pure poetry.

I've long advocated that we not try to cut financial support to individual leftist constituencies, but rather just give them a block grant to distribute amongst themselves.

And then watch the fur fly as they put on the Super Bowl of entitlement politics.

Posted by: Deplorable Jay Guevara at June 23, 2017 12:21 PM (SRKgf)

173 Mulatt and Bali

Posted by: It's Like I Don't Even Know You People Sometimes at June 23, 2017 12:21 PM (c2K1w)

174 Malaysia, Indonesia, what the hell. They all speak Austrian so I can't have a decent conversation with them.

Posted by: Furious George at June 23, 2017 12:22 PM (j+dfT)

175 Malaysia is a country, Barry. Now why don't you go see if there's something good on TV?
Posted by: Valerie Jarrett at June 23, 2017 12:19 PM (j+dfT)



"Here, Barry, take this magazine and cut out all the red. There's a good boy."

Posted by: Deplorable Jay Guevara at June 23, 2017 12:22 PM (SRKgf)

176 I know a feminist on another forum - pleasant enough until it comes to anything political whatsoever. I'm sure it will come as a shock that the trifold powers of Misinterpretation, Motte and Bailey, and the Straw Man mean that no contrary point of any kind is accepted - because between those three, no reality is left to exist.

Posted by: Sporkatus at June 23, 2017 12:23 PM (eXSOZ)

177 Johnny Depp: Hey, when was the last time an actor killed a President? Maybe it's time.

Cheri: Are you kidding me? How can you say something like that?

Depp: Hey dude, I am just exercising my 1st Amendment rights fascist!

Posted by: Chicago-Baltimore at June 23, 2017 12:23 PM (oiNtH)

178 Bali has the best yam-yam.

Posted by: J. Peterman at June 23, 2017 12:24 PM (l4aLi)

179 Posted by: Steve and Cold Bear at June 23, 2017 12:20 PM (xAvrH)

I'm curious, did you used to be a believer and then change your mind?

Posted by: OregonMuse, AoSHQ Thought Leader at June 23, 2017 12:24 PM (9d741)

180 Nood

Posted by: steevy at June 23, 2017 12:24 PM (rmVvL)

181 But what about Mott the Hoople?

Posted by: Bossy Conservative....outlaw in America at June 23, 2017 12:24 PM (RFeQD)

182 173 Mulatt and Bali
Oh, well done.

Posted by: Sporkatus at June 23, 2017 12:24 PM (eXSOZ)

183 "Here, Barry, take this magazine and cut out all the red. There's a good boy."

Posted by: Deplorable Jay Guevara at June 23, 2017 12:22 PM (SRKgf)


---

Cool, it's like a Bible. Hey, did you know God's first commandment to mankind was to be our brother's keeper?

Posted by: President Barack Hussein Obama at June 23, 2017 12:24 PM (c2K1w)

184
My karma ran over your dogma.
Posted by: Bossy Conservative....outlaw in America


Must be a Karma Ghia.

Posted by: Bertram Cabot, Jr. at June 23, 2017 12:25 PM (IqV8l)

185 Same here. And I'm convinced she has absolutely no idea of what she says from one moment to the next in that two or three minutes of raised-voices when she's decided we haven't met our argument quota for the week. It's all just in pursuit of a goal, just like the feminist example.

----

my wife tends to be imprecise in her language. then re-asks the same basic question with an extra clarifier.

And my second response is Always the same as the first one.

Wife: X ?
Me: Y

Wife: no i mean, X' ?
Me: Y


Posted by: buzzsaw90 at June 23, 2017 12:25 PM (oGRue)

186 I've also met anti theists. These seem to be non believers who actively hate religion and non religionists. Except mohammadans.
Posted by: Blue Hen at June 23, 2017 12:21 PM (326rv)


You are clearly dealing with an inferior species of anti-theist. Bomb and strafe those assholes. As specimens of active misanthropy I have some sympathy for antitheists, but if they aren't consistent, fuck 'em: burn their houses down and salt the ashes, they are posers and asswipes. Anti-theism demands a bit of rigor.

Posted by: Alcoholic Asshole Shut In at June 23, 2017 12:25 PM (CPk08)

187 I have a few (very few) longtime close friends who are lefty liberal.

I NEVER talk politics with them. Not ever. I don't see any point in arguing. Nobody's gonna change their mind. So what's the point?

Therefore, MABs will not be a big thing for me.

Posted by: mnw at June 23, 2017 12:27 PM (ezX5B)

188 All one needs to know when talking to a leftist is that immediately below the surface of their argument is the desire to see you dead.

Posted by: Soona at June 23, 2017 12:27 PM (Fmupd)

189 I've also met anti theists. These seem to be non believers who actively hate religion and non religionists. Except mohammadans.
Posted by: Blue Hen at June 23, 2017 12:21 PM (326rv)

You are clearly dealing with an inferior species of anti-theist. Bomb and strafe those assholes. As specimens of active misanthropy I have some sympathy for antitheists, but if they aren't consistent, fuck 'em: burn their houses down and salt the ashes, they are posers and asswipes. Anti-theism demands a bit of rigor.

Posted by: Alcoholic Asshole Shut In

It demands the willingness to annoy someone else based upon one thing and one thing only; they have a faith the other does not. Hatred is simply that; hatred. These hate and they're hypocritical.

Religionists have at least as much reason to hate secular movements. Int eh last century, secular movements were far more violent.

Posted by: Blue Hen at June 23, 2017 12:28 PM (326rv)

190 185 Same here. And I'm convinced she has absolutely no idea of what she says from one moment to the next in that two or three minutes of raised-voices when she's decided we haven't met our argument quota for the week. It's all just in pursuit of a goal, just like the feminist example.

----

my wife tends to be imprecise in her language. then re-asks the same basic question with an extra clarifier.

And my second response is Always the same as the first one.

Wife: X ?
Me: Y

Wife: no i mean, X' ?
Me: Y


Posted by: buzzsaw90 at June 23, 2017 12:25 PM (oGRue)


Why, it's almost as though they are a different species! LOL

Posted by: Alcoholic Asshole Shut In at June 23, 2017 12:28 PM (CPk08)

191 Nah. That just ain't so. Sorry.
Posted by: Alcoholic Asshole Shut In at June 23, 2017 12:14 PM (CPk0

We are hard-wired to believe in a religion. If it isn't what we call God in the many forms we access that idea, it will be something else, like politics for example.

Everyone has a belief system. Even Nihilists.

Posted by: Meremortal at June 23, 2017 12:29 PM (3myMJ)

192 It demands the willingness to annoy someone else based upon one thing and one thing only; they have a faith the other does not. Hatred is simply that; hatred. These hate and they're hypocritical.

Religionists have at least as much reason to hate secular movements. Int eh last century, secular movements were far more violent.
Posted by: Blue Hen at June 23, 2017 12:28 PM (326rv)


Hate I can understand. But I like my hate up close and personal: my misanthropy informs, but does not determine my politics. That way lies disaster.

Posted by: Alcoholic Asshole Shut In at June 23, 2017 12:31 PM (CPk08)

193 >>"What you just said has no relation to the argument, let's get back to your original flawed premise"
tends to silence them. Posted by: Vashta Nerada at June 23, 2017 12:18 PM (7ZVPa)

The rough equivalent in Robert's Rules is "move the previous question." Longwinded blowhard homeowner-association types hate it when someone pulls that little parliamentary trick out of a hat...

Posted by: General Zod at June 23, 2017 12:31 PM (Bdeb0)

194 181 But what about Mott the Hoople?

Well, the television man IS crazy, for starters, and now that I think of it I could use a little T Rex.

Posted by: mx4 at June 23, 2017 12:32 PM (uJqEF)

195
We are hard-wired to believe in a religion. If it isn't what we call God in the many forms we access that idea, it will be something else, like politics for example.

Everyone has a belief system. Even Nihilists.
Posted by: Meremortal at June 23, 2017 12:29 PM (3myMJ)


Nope. Sorry. Just not true. That ain't how I work.

Posted by: Alcoholic Asshole Shut In at June 23, 2017 12:32 PM (CPk08)

196 "Same here. And I'm convinced she has absolutely no idea of what she says from one moment to the next in that two or three minutes of raised-voices when she's decided we haven't met our argument quota for the week. It's all just in pursuit of a goal, just like the feminist example."

You may be my previously unknown Brother in Law

Posted by: Village Idiot's Apprentice at June 23, 2017 12:33 PM (J+eG2)

197 I'm curious, did you used to be a believer and then change your mind?

Posted by: OregonMuse, AoSHQ Thought Leader


No, I was raised in an agnostic household in east LI in the 70's-80's.

I always hated atheism, I still hate it, because it is the religion of despair. I've tried to escape it numerous times over the years, reading Lewis, or listening to William Lane Craig debates, or lectures by the smart guys, like D.A. Carson, James White or Greg Koukl. While I agree with a lot of their points it was never sufficient to push me over the edge into belief.

There is one thing that I think cannot be squared, ever, with atheism, and that is consciousness.

I need to read J.P. Moreland some day - he is the expert on consciousness. I've heard some references by Koukl to his ideas, and it is intriguing. I figured out at around age 12 that consciousness cannot be explained by naturalism. If you have a trillion golf balls in space, with little motors attached, that would replicate the motion of atoms in the human brain, that entity would not be conscious.

Posted by: Steve and Cold Bear at June 23, 2017 12:36 PM (xAvrH)

198 If you have a trillion golf balls in space, with little motors attached, that would replicate the motion of atoms in the human brain, that entity would not be conscious.
Posted by: Steve and Cold Bear at June 23, 2017 12:36 PM (xAvrH)


How would you test this hypothesis?

Posted by: Alcoholic Asshole Shut In at June 23, 2017 12:38 PM (CPk08)

199 I need to read J.P. Moreland some day - he is the expert on consciousness. I've heard some references by Koukl to his ideas, and it is intriguing. I figured out at around age 12 that consciousness cannot be explained by naturalism. If you have a trillion golf balls in space, with little motors attached, that would replicate the motion of atoms in the human brain, that entity would not be conscious.

Posted by: Steve and Cold Bear at June 23, 2017 12:36 PM (xAvrH)


Thank you for this. I was curious because I think you're the first non-believer I've met who is familiar with Cornelius Van Til.

May God grant you belief.

Posted by: OregonMuse, AoSHQ Thought Leader at June 23, 2017 12:39 PM (9d741)

200 A variation on the Coconut Treatment. Link in nick.

Oh and: hi, Horde!

Posted by: baldilocks at June 23, 2017 12:40 PM (VlyWV)

201 You are all a bunch of flaming asshole Nazis....

Oh hey, I was only kidding...just joking about, Jappery. Why are you so angry and uptight, man?

I want to murder you.

Oh I don't mean murder-murder, more like a sports team murdering their competition. Gosh you have a lot of hang-ups...

But seriously, tonight, when you are asleep, I'm totally going to rape you...

to be continued....

Posted by: Evergreen Student cowering in his dorm at June 23, 2017 12:43 PM (UgF8H)

202 Hi baldilocks!

Posted by: OregonMuse, AoSHQ Thought Leader at June 23, 2017 12:46 PM (9d741)

203 May God grant you belief.
Posted by: OregonMuse


Amen. John 6:46. Thank you sir, you are a scholar and a gentleman.

Posted by: Steve and Cold Bear at June 23, 2017 12:47 PM (xAvrH)

204 Gah, I'm a drunken retard. I meant John 6:65, which I think supports the Calvinist view.

Posted by: Steve and Cold Bear at June 23, 2017 12:50 PM (xAvrH)

205 #197 I always hated atheism, I still hate it, because it is the religion of despair.

I have a belief that is pretty simple - we are hardwired to have irrational beliefs. People who choose (and it is a choice) not to believe in god don't suddenly become rational in all things, they just transfer that irrational belief to something else - anti-vaccines, anti-GMOs, Chelsea Clinton, magical economics, climate change, etc.

My feeling is you are better off leaving your irrationality lodged into something relatively harmless. Believing in life after death is a lot less harmful than most progressive beliefs.

Posted by: Evergreen Student cowering in his dorm at June 23, 2017 12:50 PM (UgF8H)

206 Baldilocks links are always clicked by me without reservation.

Posted by: Mike Hammer, etc., etc. at June 23, 2017 12:55 PM (OdK9v)

207 Baldilocks links are always clicked by me without reservation.
Posted by: Mike Hammer, etc., etc. at June 23, 2017 12:55 PM (OdK9v)


Yes.

Posted by: OregonMuse, AoSHQ Thought Leader at June 23, 2017 12:57 PM (9d741)

208 Gah, I'm a drunken retard. I meant John 6:65, which I think supports the Calvinist view.
Posted by: Steve and Cold Bear at June 23, 2017 12:50 PM (xAvrH)


It does, but I was thinking more in terms of Mark 9:24. It sounds like you're kind of that guy.

Posted by: OregonMuse, AoSHQ Thought Leader at June 23, 2017 01:00 PM (9d741)

209 I experienced this in a party conversation with a Frenchman, where he was asked if he thought tourism was suffering as a result of the terrorist attacks this year.
"No," he said, "the police have the terrorists contained to certain neighborhoods in Paris."
"What about Nice?" I ask.
"There are no "no-go" zones, that is a myth."
Whenever you refuted what he was saying, he very smoothly pivoted to another disconnected talking point with no substance. It was exhausting

Posted by: artemis at June 23, 2017 01:06 PM (AwPyG)

210 My feeling is you are better off leaving your irrationality lodged into something relatively harmless. Believing in life after death is a lot less harmful than most progressive beliefs.
Posted by: Evergreen Student cowering in his dorm at June 23, 2017 12:50 PM (UgF8H)


This I agree with.

Posted by: Shub Niggurath at June 23, 2017 01:19 PM (CPk08)

211 Off, Elder sock.

Posted by: Alcoholic Asshole Shut In at June 23, 2017 01:19 PM (CPk08)

212 This has also been knowns as the fallacy of equivocation, for a long time.

Posted by: xnycpeasant at June 23, 2017 01:41 PM (QtQaN)

213 She's wrong I'm married to one. And she's more than a people I'll tell ya.

Posted by: SOMEASSHOLESTOLEMYPEN at June 23, 2017 02:13 PM (nQHw/)

214 "Feminist: All men are rapists.

OregonMuse: What, are you high? You know that's complete bullshit."This is where you fucked up the argument. You should have IMMEDIATELY attacked her as homophobic. Since "all men" necessarily includes homosexual men, she just said that all homosexual men are rapists. How dare she! She needs to check her cis-privilege post-fucking-haste. Hell, have some fun with it and paraphrase Eric Stratton: "Well, you can say whatever you want about men in general, but I'm not going to stand here and listen to you badmouth the homosexuals!" They set the rules of the game; make them play by them.

Posted by: FaCubeItches at June 23, 2017 02:49 PM (rznWS)

215 See also:

Pascendi dominici gregis, Pope Pius X, condemning Modernism.

It is the same damnable thing.

Posted by: GuardAmerican at June 23, 2017 03:17 PM (GBnWt)

216 Feminist: All men are rapists.

Me: so you have a problem with a man dressing as a woman being in your locker rooms and restrooms then?

Posted by: Christopher R Taylor at June 23, 2017 03:21 PM (39g3+)

217 "Feminist: All men are rapists.

Me: so you have a problem with a man dressing as a woman being in your locker rooms and restrooms then?
Posted by: Christopher R Taylor at June 23, 2017 03:21 PM (39g3+)"

Those rare feminists who are actually somewhat intellectually consistent have a BIG problem with that, as Stacy McCain has well-documented. Like him, I actually sympathize with the TERFs as they're called to some degree: turns out some otherwise "privileged" well-off white boys wanted in on that sweet sweet professional victim status and money and found an even better way to weasel in on traditional feminist territory. The TERFs are pissed off (and blaming the patriarchy, predictably) because now certain snowflake males muscled them (and even the other LGBTOMGWTFBBQ subgroups) out of their spot in the Oppression Olympics.

Posted by: Saber Alter, rising from the dead at June 23, 2017 04:44 PM (YZ7Go)

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