Gun Thread: Build Or Buy, That Is The Question [CBD]

The NRA Blog has a nice little article about whether to build or buy your AR-15. There is nothing earth shattering about it, but one point is important:

Armoring experience: One of the best ways to familiarize yourself with your AR is to disassemble and reassemble, learning the intricacies and minutiae of the system.

That's also a good point about pretty much everything on earth. I was a pretty serious cyclist for a long time, and I built my first really good bike. That taught me pretty much everything I needed to know, except for how to true wheels. That is dark magic and cannot be learned by mortals.

So....have at it: What would you do? Build or buy? And what would you build or buy?

And just because.....

Posted by: Open Blogger at 12:15 PM

Comments

(Jump to bottom of comments)

1 Maybe first.

Posted by: Me Aspirin Factory at May 22, 2016 12:13 PM (89T5c)

2 I love to take things apart and then reassemble them.
What to do with the leftover parts?

Posted by: navybrat at May 22, 2016 12:14 PM (w7KSn)

3 Going to cast my own 75 cal smooth bored bullets the old fashion way. Since I have a good amount of lead that needs to be cleaned thought of a big pot and small dipper. Any helpful hints?

Posted by: Skip at May 22, 2016 12:17 PM (3wHFl)

4 Navybrat- make another out of the parts.

Posted by: Skip at May 22, 2016 12:18 PM (3wHFl)

5 Either way, build or buy, you better get a weapon and ammo before Obama and friends try something stupid before he leaves office.
With another LEO being shot and killed this morning in MA, criminals are getting more brazen because of this current administration and the Dept. of non-justice.

Posted by: Barry Sullivan at May 22, 2016 12:18 PM (j0TPo)

6 Mr. Aspirin Factory. Fucking phone.

Posted by: Mr Aspirin Factory at May 22, 2016 12:19 PM (89T5c)

7 I'm waiting for Kel Tec to start making AR-15s.

Posted by: dustydog at May 22, 2016 12:20 PM (JgGr4)

8
Sometimes wonder how John Browning would do in today's firearms industry.

What wonders could he create with modern technology available to him?

Posted by: irongrampa at May 22, 2016 12:20 PM (X35Yt)

9 I would build a crossbow and buy a long bow. Seriously though I would want to build an M1A to resemble an EBR.

Posted by: Anonymous Scandinavian Hobo who doesn't want to be turned into jerky at May 22, 2016 12:20 PM (RvSAg)

10 I've done both, and the last two ARs we've bought we've bought.

The S+W M ampersand P 15 Sport was to have a good back-up AR, the Idaho Quality Arms was because wife loved some features on it including the side charger.

You have total control of components when you build, and that is a non-negligible quality but it does cost.

The next AR-15 I will likely "buy/build" I am deeply interested in getting the Optical Ready Anderson RF-85 coated AR and accessorizing it to "Sven Spec"...

Posted by: sven10077 at May 22, 2016 12:20 PM (g8Hfr)

11 Heading to the range this morning after breakfast. I may very well make a purchase as well.

Posted by: Colorado Alex at May 22, 2016 12:22 PM (vh/hj)

12 Depends on whether or not you like messing with roll pins and tiny springs. With the right tools a caveman could do it, but without you might ruin your receiver. I say buy your first, and once you figure out what you like/dislike, build your second, third, etc.

Posted by: Bacon Jeff at May 22, 2016 12:23 PM (VSenK)

13 7 Posted by: dustydog at May 22, 2016 12:20 PM (JgGr4)

They already do make a STANAG Mag accepting rifle the SU-16 series.

https://youtu.be/xQdBuS_o5pI

IMHO it is a good stab at what the AR-15 theory was at inception...

I would not trust it in a military situation, BUT I'd probably trust it is a sporting/SHTF one.

Posted by: sven10077 at May 22, 2016 12:23 PM (g8Hfr)

14 I usually build my own lowers; very easy and you can configure them to suit your preferences from the ground up. Also pretty hard to mess up, especially if you use drop-in trigger packs. YouTube is your friend here.

Uppers are a little more involved. Given that you can often catch complete uppers on sale from quality places like Palmetto State Armory (they use FN hammer forged barrels) for less than the cost of the constituent parts, it's probably best to just do that rather than have to screw around with headspacing, etc.

Posted by: LKB at May 22, 2016 12:24 PM (gLW+r)

15 11 Heading to the range this morning after breakfast. I may very well make a purchase as well.
Posted by: Colorado Alex at May 22, 2016 12:22 PM (vh/hj)

If you don't mind my asking, what range do you go to?

Posted by: Bacon Jeff at May 22, 2016 12:25 PM (VSenK)

16 Can't do either one here in the People's Republic of New York

Posted by: PRD at May 22, 2016 12:25 PM (jVXg7)

17 and as predicted by Sven back in 2012 you can get a quality AR for under 500 bucks again...

http://tinyurl.com/hqynx8o

Aim Surplus- Anderson Non RF-85 Optical Ready Carbine for 490 bucks...

of course AIM's cyber security rep took a hit this year.

Posted by: sven10077 at May 22, 2016 12:26 PM (g8Hfr)

18 2 I love to take things apart and then reassemble them.
What to do with the leftover parts?
Posted by: navybrat at May 22, 2016 12:14 PM (w7KSn)

I usually just throw 'em in a junk drawer.

Posted by: Harry Paratestes at May 22, 2016 12:26 PM (AkOaV)

19 Magnum Shooting Center. It's nice, little wait, and I browse the guns afterwards.

Posted by: Colorado Alex at May 22, 2016 12:27 PM (vh/hj)

20 I am resisting joining the Butte Gun Club...

this is a donkey town....

Wife has a co-worker with a spread we are gonna use to test the Winchester's legs.

Posted by: sven10077 at May 22, 2016 12:29 PM (g8Hfr)

21 Gracias for a gun thread, CBD!

And how topical. At this very moment, I am pondering this very question - build or buy.

Though circumstances almost certainly will push me to the "build" side - or at least to getting something component-by-component, whether *I* actually build it or not.

CA, spiraling ever downward in idiocy of all kinds, is about to pass laws essentially banning new ARs (that's a simplified bottom line). Gov. Brown, I think, is still likely to veto these, as he has in the past.

But, if he doesn't ....... so thinking I will get a good multi-cal lower now/soon, to safeguard me against the worst case. And the rest later. After I have edumucated m'self a bit (don't know much about these plastic things that shoot the tiny little projectiles). I should build it myself, for the reason you state.

Posted by: rhomboid at May 22, 2016 12:30 PM (QDnY+)

22 "Magnum Shooting Center"

I go to one of the members-only outdoor ranges and "the other" indoor range. Don't spend nearly enough time at either.

Posted by: Bacon Jeff at May 22, 2016 12:31 PM (VSenK)

23 of course my "build it" or likely "have it built" project is trying to put together a replica Colt Model 608 carbine.

Posted by: sven10077 at May 22, 2016 12:33 PM (g8Hfr)

24 Star Trek Beyond:

MEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEH!!!!!

Posted by: First-Rate Political Hack at May 22, 2016 12:34 PM (Utoq5)

25 24 Posted by: First-Rate Political Hack at May 22, 2016 12:34 PM (Utoq5)

Star Fast Trek Furious-Galactic Angst

Posted by: sven10077 at May 22, 2016 12:34 PM (g8Hfr)

26 All forest service land is one big gun range. Find a spot an have-at-it.

Posted by: Fritz at May 22, 2016 12:37 PM (f40FU)

27 So CBD, do you have one of those Les Baer 1911s, or is that just eye-candy for the horde?

I have a stock Springfield 1911 (MilSpec flavor) that I finally can hit broadside of a barn with. All on me. I don't modify any of my platforms. With the 1911 my idea was to smooth the trigger, and fix my faulty technique, with lots of shooting (reloading helps make that feasible).

Posted by: rhomboid at May 22, 2016 12:40 PM (QDnY+)

28 3 Going to cast my own 75 cal smooth bored bullets the old fashion way. Since I have a good amount of lead that needs to be cleaned thought of a big pot and small dipper. Any helpful hints?

Posted by: Skip at May 22, 2016 12:17 PM (3wHFl)

Skip. Use a four-quart, cast-iron pot. Yeah, you'll have to sacrifice one, so don't ruin a classic, just buy a new Lodge pot, or a Harbor Freight one, if they have 'em in stock.

Set it on a propane-fueled, turkey-fryer stand and burner, and set up a plywood or sheet metal wind-barrier on the upwind side. You don't want all your precious BTUs blowing downwind, instead of heating the pot above.

A good stainless dipper with which to skim off the dross, and then to pour into the molds. The dipper should have a pouring-beak, of course.

Pre-heat your molds, and when you cast the first batch, be ready to throw those bullets back into the pot, if need be.

Have a pan of cool water handy, and drop the freshly cast bullets from the mold into the water. Chilled shot is a bit harder, will produce a bit less leading in the barrel.

And I'd also suggest wearing a respirator during the skim and pouring sessions. Lead fumes are the real bad news in the lead department. Solid lead, or lead coated with it's own (minimal) oxide in the ground, is pretty damn inert.

But lead fumes will absolutely fvck you up, so they're to be avoided.

Unless you want to turn yourself into a mental democrat, then it'll work like magic.

Jim
Sunk New Dawn
Galveston, TX

Posted by: Jim at May 22, 2016 12:40 PM (McRlu)

29 Build.

It's easy and there so many options to choose from. The only you need to get from the FFL is the lower receiver. Everything you can have delivered to your door.

Posted by: EC at May 22, 2016 12:40 PM (j8YpL)

30 Thing.

Else.

Posted by: EC at May 22, 2016 12:41 PM (j8YpL)

31 We used to build computers from components in the house here, but as we got older, we got less patient with the 75 hours of tweaking and adjusting and moving brackets around to get everything just right.

They were half the cost of a full computer, or less, but compatibility and little stupid tweaks were an enormous headache.

Posted by: Christopher Taylor at May 22, 2016 12:41 PM (39g3+)

32 I have heard that making your own arrows is a horrendous experience as well, but probably worth learning, if you know what I mean...

Posted by: Christopher Taylor at May 22, 2016 12:43 PM (39g3+)

33 "That taught me pretty much everything I needed to know, except for how
to true wheels. That is dark magic and cannot be learned by mortals."

::: steely glare :::

"You can't HAN-DLE the true!"

Posted by: torquewrench at May 22, 2016 12:43 PM (noWW6)

34
Picked up primers and 4 lbs of Hodgdon Clays at the gun show yesterday. Clays hasn't been in stock anywhere for at least a year or two, Hodgdon must have done a production run lately (I've seen it finally come into stock in a few places). Gonna FINALLY try out the low-recoil "Geezer Load" for 45 Auto on the Berry's Bullets site, Clays behind one of the Berry's 185g plated bullets.

And for ARs, I'm all about building rather than buying. Have a lightweight AR that I built using the mid gas, 16" pencil barrel from Faxon and an ALG fore end on a simple Brownells upper receiver. Turned out really nice so far. Combat accurate the first time I took it out with a Vortex red dot, need to get a scope to really see what that barrel's capable of.

Nice thing about building ARs is that you really don't need a lot of specialized tooling. A good quality combo tool, and a barrel extension wrench (Geissele Action Rod or the Brownells) are pretty much the only specialized tools you need. The rest is regular hand tools from Home Depot.

Posted by: IllTemperedCur at May 22, 2016 12:45 PM (LuZz8)

35 Fritz, in SoCal forest service land has various restrictions depending on season and location. I'm sure it's much more open in other places. Even BLM land here - same.

The seasonal (fire) restrictions are pretty legit.

The areas used for years, now closed, down near the border (Border Patrol preference) are living monuments to the idiocy of lawlessness on immigration and border security.

The areas used for years, now closed due to the idiocy of contemporary Americans trashing the outdoors for no reason, are monuments to the degradation of the culture. Places used for decades, that had as a result ..... only tire tracks, footprints, some scattered .22 brass ..... now have heaps of shot-up TVs, refrigerators, other computer screens, etc.

It's really the best, most concrete, most dramatic side/side thing I can think of when comparing just how degraded standards of behavior have become just in my lifetime, as I saw it before/after.

Posted by: rhomboid at May 22, 2016 12:46 PM (QDnY+)

36 Point blank range, Mooresville and Matthews NC. Great indoor shooting, excellent instruction. They have 'ette' only concealed carry classes several times a month IYKWIM.

Posted by: Buck Ofama at May 22, 2016 12:47 PM (GLFWg)

37 One of the best ways to familiarize yourself with your AR is to disassemble and reassemble, learning the intricacies and minutiae of the system.

So, basically reinvent the wheel?

Posted by: Clockboy at May 22, 2016 12:47 PM (AjTgU)

38 Point blank range, Mooresville and Matthews NC. Great indoor shooting, excellent instruction. They have 'ette' only concealed carry classes several times a month IYKWIM.

Yay! Another NC moron!

Posted by: EC at May 22, 2016 12:48 PM (j8YpL)

39 William Weld wants to be the Libertarian candidate for VP yet he proudly touts his gun control position. How is that Libertarian?

Posted by: Bertram Cabot Jr. at May 22, 2016 12:49 PM (k4M/B)

40 I could've used a baer when I got raped by that bear.

Posted by: Leonardo DiCaprio at May 22, 2016 12:50 PM (AjTgU)

41
of course my "build it" or likely "have it built" project is trying to put together a replica Colt Model 608 carbine.

Posted by: sven10077 at May 22, 2016 12:33 PM (g8Hfr)

Cool. That'll turn heads at the range. With the cone flashhider it'll look like a tactical kazoo.

I'm acquiring parts for an XM177 build now. Brownells has retro-style barrels now, complete with the old pencil-barrel profiles and the 1-12 twist. Might want to look that over.

Posted by: IllTemperedCur at May 22, 2016 12:51 PM (LuZz8)

42 #28
yep exactly(cast iron dutch oven, turkey fryer, respirator)
I purify a bunch of lead at once
use muffin tins for a bunch of ingots
a little saw dust in the casting pot helps the purity when casting also

Posted by: harley1911 at May 22, 2016 12:52 PM (SHCNy)

43 I'm with Sven on the buy/build thing. With the right initial purchase, there's often little to do but some tweaking.

At least one manufacturer (the I.D. of which escapes the Swiss Cheese of my mind right now), offers a good AR build, but is sold with no buttstock, foreend, sights or other bits. You can furnish it to your heart's desires, without having to deal with the "discards" of surplus factory parts lying around after you've swapped 'em for better.

Given that I'm very partial to high-quality barrels, with a 1:8 twist and the Wylde chamber specs, I usually have to have an upper built to my order, but that's what also allows me to get the M-16 bolt carrier and other fiddly bits delivered in "once and done" configuration.

I'm happy to let someone who does it for a living, wield the armorer's wrench on the upper. It's the thing of I *can* do it, but I don't *need* to do it. At least, not at the moment. That said, I'm going to also shop around and buy a good AR armorer's wrench, just in case.

Jim
Sunk New Dawn
Galveston, TX

P.S. CBD. Excellent Gum Thread, thanks and "more, please!"

Posted by: Jim at May 22, 2016 12:52 PM (McRlu)

44 "William Weld wants to be the Libertarian candidate for VP yet he proudly
touts his gun control position. How is that Libertarian?"

With enough preparatory bong hits, any philosophical circle may be squared.

Posted by: torquewrench at May 22, 2016 12:52 PM (noWW6)

45 ITC, how about the comment above about uppers - I would think that headspacing a barrel would require some special tools or gauges, at least?

I don't mind getting a few roll pins and a special wrench or two. Gives you the option of tweaking, or building additional rifles later.

I love the idea of everything coming to the house, like all my C ampersand R firearms used to do (and can no longer do, after the CA legislature naturally reacted to the enormous crime wave of hold-ups and massacres committed using Mosin-Nagants and Garands by essentially forcing them into the FFL lane - what, you didn't hear about those?).

Posted by: rhomboid at May 22, 2016 12:53 PM (QDnY+)

46 William Weld wants to be the Libertarian candidate for VP yet he proudly touts his gun control position. How is that Libertarian?

Libertarians often are only so insofar as their personal vices are concerned. this isn't true about all, but many have their personal thing they wish they could do without being hassled, maaan, and that's why they call themselves libertarian. Weed, hookers, guns, taxes, whatever. Their pet peeve they want left alone and don't care about the rest.

Posted by: Christopher Taylor at May 22, 2016 12:54 PM (39g3+)

47 I've fired a few of the 5.56 NATO rifles and just never quite liked the way they 'felt.' can't put my finger on it - I'm sure it's a good round - but still, there was the total absence of shoulder-punishing pain that I'd been taught to expect with a good military rifle....

Posted by: Your Decidedly Devious Uncle Palpatine, Still Accepting Harem Applicants at May 22, 2016 12:55 PM (lutOX)

48 Twenty years ago I rebuilt the engine on my 1979 Chevy Luv pickup. Its long gone now after 280K miles. But, I still have the two bolts and one little spring that were left over after I finished.

Posted by: Diogenes at May 22, 2016 12:56 PM (r65B3)

49 Hey, vato-- those look like the guns Eric Holder gave me. I especially liked my .50 cal machine gun.

Say hello to my little DC frenz!

Posted by: El Chap-ass at May 22, 2016 12:57 PM (Ndje9)

50 Just got here, so I know somebody has to have said it already....

Both.

Assembly is ridiculously easy.

Most of the tools are relatively inexpensive at the better then average consumer quality level.

And the skills to build, translate to the ability to clean, diagnose and repair.

I still want to tackle an 80% lower at some point.

But, not this week.

Posted by: Village Idiot's Apprentice at May 22, 2016 12:58 PM (ptqRm)

51 Meant to lead with this question, for horde-sourcing.

Since lowers are the part I'd need to get to beat any CA restrictions, and they're relatively inexpensive (another reason to get only those right now, don't want to spend much on this area at the moment) - should I get several?

And - any suggestions on brands or types?

I hear tell brands like Palmetto State and Spikes are good - any other big names for that list?

Also - "multi-cal" lowers cover most caliber options except for AR-10/.308, correct?

Posted by: rhomboid at May 22, 2016 12:58 PM (QDnY+)

52
AR barrels are headspaced when the barrel extension is pressed on by the barrel manufacturer, so it's not really necessary for ARs. It's more of a warm-fuzzy at that point.

Still, you can get the gauges to verify if you want that extra level of confidence, it's not difficult to do.

Posted by: IllTemperedCur at May 22, 2016 12:58 PM (LuZz8)

53 Since this is the gun thread, I gotta throw this one out there. Some company has a holster you can... strap to the front of your rifle

http://tinyurl.com/h3j5qym

...why the heck would you ever want that? Extra weight on the front end of your gun? What is that for, when you want to kill something you're already pointing a gun at, a little less?

Posted by: Christopher Taylor at May 22, 2016 12:59 PM (39g3+)

54 I wouldn't trust myself to build a gun.

That would be retarded.

Posted by: eleven at May 22, 2016 01:00 PM (qUNWi)

55
Also - "multi-cal" lowers cover most caliber options except for AR-10/.308, correct?

Posted by: rhomboid at May 22, 2016 12:58 PM (QDnY+)

Yup.

I think the multi-cal labeling thing is more about making it easier to purchase and own in certain non-free states.

Posted by: IllTemperedCur at May 22, 2016 01:02 PM (LuZz8)

56
Live in NY and see what you get to own, let alone build.

Assholes.

Posted by: irongrampa at May 22, 2016 01:03 PM (X35Yt)

57 Tell you what the infantry could really use these days:

Something small-ish that fires a heavy, sit-your-ass-right-down, sorta projectile.

Infantry engagements these days are pretty close-up affairs still, and most of the guys we're whacking don't sport body armor.

Posted by: Your Decidedly Devious Uncle Palpatine, Still Accepting Harem Applicants at May 22, 2016 01:03 PM (lutOX)

58 Build your own! You can take your time and save money by buying top shelf parts on sale. I'm finishing up my latest build soon. DDM4 lightweight mid length keymod upper, aimpoint comp M4, surefire light, Geissle trigger, Mega lower. Just need to choose a stock and BUIS

Posted by: Spud Magoober at May 22, 2016 01:04 PM (D+u+j)

59 Just home from a work weekend at the deer camp. Barn's just about done, and all long guns re-zeroed.

It was good, productive weekend.

Posted by: Country Singer at May 22, 2016 01:04 PM (GUBah)

60 Thanks, ITC. So assembling the upper as well as the rest should not be a problem?

There's a young local FFL/gunsmith (almost walking distance) I'd like to throw some business, thinking I will get an appointment with him to discuss, then use him to get my lowers. Fairly sure he's the type who's happy to guide people through the process of building.

Posted by: rhomboid at May 22, 2016 01:05 PM (QDnY+)

61 Thanks to You Tube and Sig Sauer.
I feel pretty again!

Posted by: Barry Sullivan at May 22, 2016 01:05 PM (j0TPo)

62 53 Since this is the gun thread, I gotta throw this one out there. Some company has a holster you can... strap to the front of your rifle

http://tinyurl.com/h3j5qym

...why the heck would you ever want that? Extra weight on the front end of your gun? What is that for, when you want to kill something you're already pointing a gun at, a little less?

Wouldn't that make your pistol an SBR?

Posted by: Spud Magoober at May 22, 2016 01:05 PM (D+u+j)

63 I hear tell brands like Palmetto State and Spikes are good - any other big names for that list?

Posted by: rhomboid at May 22, 2016 12:58 PM (QDnY+)

Daniel Defense and to a lesser extent, Rock River Arms.

Posted by: Country Singer at May 22, 2016 01:06 PM (GUBah)

64 How timely! I'm taking a break from reloading.

I mostly shoot bolt rifles, but building an AR is really pretty easy with a modest set of tools (most you will already have) and w basic mechanical aptitude. There are a ton of how-to videos online and Brownells is an excellent resource.
Another good idea is to take a pistol armorer's course - I can recommend the Sig Sauer program and you don't have to be in the northeast - they take the show on the road.

Posted by: Weasel at May 22, 2016 01:09 PM (e3bId)

65 Heh...

I just realized, nearly all of the boom-sticks I lost in that tragic canoe accident were chambered in Warsaw Pact calibres.....

Posted by: Your Decidedly Devious Uncle Palpatine, Still Accepting Harem Applicants at May 22, 2016 01:09 PM (lutOX)

66 "And I'd also suggest wearing a respirator during the skim and pouring
sessions. Lead fumes are the real bad news in the lead department."

Metal fume fever of any sort, really, is no picnic.

People can end up seriously done by after welding galvanized sheet steel.

If I were setting up a bench for this sort of work, in addition to wearing PPE, I'd want a powerful extraction fan that pulled through a good filter. Don't just blow that stuff out into the exterior air.

Posted by: torquewrench at May 22, 2016 01:09 PM (noWW6)

67 OK, last questions (I think) for the horde.

Good web sources for self-edumucation? (AR15.com, I've explored that a little ..... others?)

Any "no-go" brands for lowers or other major components - brands with a dicey reputation? (guy at the range this week said Aero lowers do not accept all kinds of parts, for example)

And .... worth the expense to get a Wylde-chambered barrel (or even Noveske)? Purpose of rifle would be "general", part of it is just to have one ("diversity! celebrate it!").

Posted by: rhomboid at May 22, 2016 01:09 PM (QDnY+)

68
Something else on the build front is handgun building. Used to be that you really needed a mini-mill to finish an 80% handgun receiver (1911s were the main ones available). Now there are other options.

Polymer 80 Glock-type 80% frame (can be finished with a drill press)
http://tinyurl.com/zao7f8h

Matrix Precision 1911 rail cutting jig (no mill needed)
http://tinyurl.com/j467d3p

Lots more options out there as well, just need to do some online searching.

Posted by: IllTemperedCur at May 22, 2016 01:11 PM (LuZz8)

69 Don't now if it's national news yet, but a police officer was shot and killed this morning in Auburn, MA. The suspect is still on the run. He had literally 20 years worth of convictions in 2013, somehow he was free anyway. Among his charges were coke dealing and selling/using a silencer. In April he was arrested for assaulting a cop, continued without a finding. Suspect name, Jorge Zambrano.

Posted by: Lincolntf at May 22, 2016 01:11 PM (2cS/G)

70 Dang, knew I'd forget a question.

Best online sources to look for good deals on lowers?

I am familiar with AIM, Palmetto State, CTD, Brownells, and other major online names. Any others worth checking for sales?

Posted by: rhomboid at May 22, 2016 01:13 PM (QDnY+)

71 Online source for deals on anything firearm, or ammo.

https://www.slickguns.com

Posted by: Village Idiot's Apprentice at May 22, 2016 01:14 PM (ptqRm)

72 Slick guns search results for "Lower"

https://www.slickguns.com/search/apachesolr_search/lower

Posted by: Village Idiot's Apprentice at May 22, 2016 01:16 PM (ptqRm)

73 Posted by: rhomboid at May 22, 2016 01:13 PM (QDnY+)

Sportsman's Guide will sometimes have good stuff.

Posted by: Country Singer at May 22, 2016 01:16 PM (GUBah)

74 Lincolntf that's sickening about the MA policeman.

If only MA had more common sense gun control, things like this wouldn't happen.

Oh, wait.

Posted by: rhomboid at May 22, 2016 01:16 PM (QDnY+)

75 "Don't now if it's national news yet, but a police officer was shot and
killed this morning in Auburn, MA. The suspect is still on the run. He
had literally 20 years worth of convictions in 2013, somehow he was free
anyway."

Assholechusetts kept right on keeping on with its revolving-door prison policies after the infamous Michael Dukakis era.

Posted by: torquewrench at May 22, 2016 01:16 PM (noWW6)

76 We're out at the range sighting in some Savages right now. Lunch, and, back out.

Posted by: Ricardo Kill at May 22, 2016 01:18 PM (9ym/8)

77 VIA and Country Singer, thanks!

Names I knew but not sources I've used for anything, so I need the prompting.

Adding to my list now. Should schedule an appt. with the local FFL this week, get my head right, and then commence surveillance for deals. Though I'm thinking, at most, I'll only get two lowers at this point.

Posted by: rhomboid at May 22, 2016 01:19 PM (QDnY+)

78 " We're out at the range sighting in some Savages right now. Lunch, and, back out."

Well bless your heart.

What....me jealous?

What makes you think that?

Posted by: Village Idiot's Apprentice at May 22, 2016 01:19 PM (ptqRm)

79 Oh, yeah, I just remembered Joe Bob Outfitters (seriously).

http://tinyurl.com/z9vhfzn

Posted by: Country Singer at May 22, 2016 01:19 PM (GUBah)

80 "What makes you think that?"

If you were close I'd invite you out.

Posted by: Ricardo Kill at May 22, 2016 01:22 PM (9ym/8)

81 I am more of a hunting rifle guy. I love my lever guns and have some incredible bolt rifles. Including a 6.5 1903 Mannlicher and a Griffin and Howe .35 Whelan.
I did give my son a Mini 14 Ranch, but could not bring myself to buy him an ugly black gun or the despised AK lookalike. yuck. (let the fireworks begin).

Posted by: pat at May 22, 2016 01:23 PM (4MSOz)

82 IF you feel up to it building your own is best IMHO. It is fairly easy and as mentioned there's PLENTY of how-2's on the web. There are IMHO 2 types of builds. Battle rifle and marksman, either way using matched uppers and lowers easily take down and rebuild either from those same basic pieces.

Unfortunately there are not many how-2's on avoiding the dreaded canoeing, sailing, or boating accident where all your prize weapons will be lost overboard. Sniff..sniff...

Posted by: Fewenuff at May 22, 2016 01:23 PM (T/sbU)

83 "If you were close I'd invite you out."

Would love to..

But life and geography ain't cooperating.

Go have fun.
And thanks

Posted by: Village Idiot's Apprentice at May 22, 2016 01:23 PM (ptqRm)

84 rhomboid. My Wylde chambered barrel is an 18", stainless Lothar-Walther unit, in 1:8 twist.

With 62 gr. match ammo, it'll shoot cloverleaf groups at 100 yds, till ya get bored with it.

Many other good barrel makers out there. I've got a Mauser boltie project in the works, that's going to get the finest Shilen barrel I can get 'em to make in 6.5 bore, and it'll be reamed for the 6.5x55 Swede cartridge.

On the other end of the spectrum, yeah, I do want a "disposable grade", AR for bedside stowage. Long as it'll pass a 500 round fitness test, and "group" at least six inches or smaller at 100 yards, I'll be ok with it. Cause if I ever do use it, it'll be more like at 10 yards, not 100.

Whereupon it'll reside for years or forever in an evidence locker, hence the "disposable grade" specification.

It'll probably be the most fun-to-build carbine I'll ever assemble, too. Go figure.

Jim
Sunk New Dawn
Galveston, TX

Posted by: Jim at May 22, 2016 01:24 PM (McRlu)

85 Other thing I'm pondering, in light of both standard-procedure CA idiocy and our now routine national panics around presidential cycles - whether to stock up on ammo and components.

I reload for everything except shotgun and 54R (have stacks of spam cans).

While *this* cycle of CA's festival of indefensible unconstitutional idiocy does not include restrictions on reloading components, it seems like only a matter of time for that.

And yes, there is a good chance that online ammo purchases will be outlawed - by the f***ing cretinous ignorant bigoted voters of the state, not by the vermin in Sacramento (referendum item).

Cuz we all know that public safety and crime are dramatically affected by ...... online ammo purchases. (face-palm)

"Prepping" in CA has nothing to do with earthquakes, zombies, or the Burning Times. It's all about the unhinged, authoritarian, Bokassa I-type stylings of the idiotic population and legislature.

So - while my powder magazine is starting to look like a powder room on the Iowa-class, and my primer stock is healthy - may be time to "hoard" even more .....

Posted by: rhomboid at May 22, 2016 01:25 PM (QDnY+)

86 >>That is dark magic and cannot be learned by mortals

This is so fucking true.

Posted by: garrett at May 22, 2016 01:27 PM (2q8gu)

87 BTW, anyone else notice the stores are full of ammo again? Our Sports Authority is even encouraging hoarding (LOL) except for .22. That is limited to 2 boxes of each type of round.

Posted by: pat at May 22, 2016 01:27 PM (4MSOz)

88 It's O/T,

But Insty mentions that there is an alignment of results at the RealClear national poll averages.

Posted by: Village Idiot's Apprentice at May 22, 2016 01:27 PM (ptqRm)

89 For those not familiar with it I thought I would give a basic review of Quick Load which is a CAD program for hand loaders. It allows you to select cartridge, bullet, powder, barrel length, and bullet seating depth. Most cartridges, bullets, powders are covered, and you can vary the seating depth of the bullets easily by varying the cartridge overall length to .001".

The program calculates the volume remaining in the cartridge after the bullet is seated, as well as the volume taken up by a given weight of the selected powder. The program then calculates pressures and bullet velocity based on the thermodynamic properties of the powder. The most glaring omission in the software is that it doesn't cover the IMR double base Enduron powders.

The program has already saved me from making a disastrous mistake on a .45 ACP load. If you look at the Lee loading data when using Hodgen's Titegroup powder you can easily make the mistake of setting 230 grain Hornady FMJ round nose bullets to a C.O.L. of 1.200". However this cartridge overall length is for the Hornady FMJ flat nose bullets. With a medium load of 4.7 grains of Titegroup this length results in a load which exceeds the maximum pressure of even +P rounds. I received the program after loading 50 rounds to this spec - but before firing them and decided to check the load with the program. Likely would have caused my pistol to blowup.

There is a free demo copy of the program available at www.neconos.com if you wish to see how it works. The program along with the Quick Target external ballistics program is available for $152.95 plus shipping and handling. Highly recommended.

Posted by: An Observation at May 22, 2016 01:29 PM (SuZ6S)

90 Jim thanks for the advice. Looking on ebay for a ladle though 1 video I saw guy used a stainless steel spoon. Have respirator and goggles for work, stopping on way home for welders gloves. Only thing is determined to really go old school and use wood. I have oodles to burn up, built my furnace today with block walls and iron grate on top. Read numerous instructions and didn't exactly get at first the Flux idea but will need something. Bees wax or sawdust seem to be the most used. Don't quite get how something that burns will work but that's what they say so I'll try. I have lead I've saved for many years, tire weights, pipe, caps for lead layer drywall, lead sheets.

Posted by: Skip at May 22, 2016 01:29 PM (3wHFl)

91 A good shooting club in SoKal is Desert Marksman just south of the Palmdale/Lancaster "metro" area (ROFLMAO). Multiple ranges and distances, inexpensive and limited BS. They're on the web requiring limited Google-fu.

Posted by: Fewenuff at May 22, 2016 01:31 PM (T/sbU)

92 Country Singer - Joe Bob's - love it! Thanks. One more for the list.

Fewenuff - I think you just gave me the perfect framework - two builds, one marksman, one battle. Covers the biggest categories.

Jim - thanks! I have a list of questions I plan to hit the FFL guy with, but some of them are being partly answered here.

Posted by: rhomboid at May 22, 2016 01:33 PM (QDnY+)

93 So colleges and universities are no longer allowed, by federal fiat, to ask staff or applicants about violent criminal histories.

Ignorance is now required by executive action.

Is it any wonder gun sales are up?

Posted by: MTF at May 22, 2016 01:35 PM (/m8T6)

94 House surrounded in Leicester, MA. Apparently they think they have the shooter inside. Here's hoping he doesn't make it out.

Posted by: Lincolntf at May 22, 2016 01:36 PM (2cS/G)

95 Wife and I both have a personal LB. Wouldn't traded them for any thing. Both have cheaper 1911's for around the house but the LB's are the go-to's for fun.

I am thinking about building a 15 with wood furniture to go along with the mini 15's and 30's.

Posted by: Bayou City's iPad at May 22, 2016 01:37 PM (D7dYu)

96 "37
One of the best ways to familiarize yourself with your AR is to
disassemble and reassemble, learning the intricacies and minutiae of the
system.

So, basically reinvent the wheel?

Posted by: Clockboy at May 22, 2016 12:47 PM (AjTgU)"

More like become initiated into knowledge of the mysteries.

Posted by: Obnoxious A-Hole at May 22, 2016 01:37 PM (QHgTq)

97 Les Baer's totally (except for their magazines) rock.

When my first group of 15, standing, with white box, at 15 yards looked like a 2 inch-wide image of Texas, I knew I'd found The One.

Posted by: Duncanthrax (formerly the Bellicose) at May 22, 2016 01:38 PM (OF/aZ)

98 "More like become initiated into knowledge of the mysteries."

Psst..

Look at the Nic.

Posted by: Village Idiot's Apprentice at May 22, 2016 01:38 PM (ptqRm)

99 93 MTF
Wonder how that squares with the college "rape culture"?
BTW, so far every proclamation from the DOE has been found to be either in violation of the law as written or Constitutionally suspect by State legal authorities. Of course some State government want some of these laws.

Posted by: pat at May 22, 2016 01:38 PM (4MSOz)

100 An Observation - yikes. With a mid-range load, overall length should not matter THAT much, I would think, esp. in 45ACP, a low-pressure caliber. Is TiteGroup a good powder for 45? (have never used it, too lazy to go look up the data)

I load mid-range for almost everything, 45 has never made me worry about over-pressure, overall length is just max for the Springfield chamber, standard of 1.230 works fine (for my purposes).

Posted by: rhomboid at May 22, 2016 01:39 PM (QDnY+)

101 I mentioned here a year or so back the "See-All Open Site"....

opined then that what was needed was tritium for low-light situations...well the folks there got the license to make tritium based open sites...

https://seeallopensight.com/

Gonna put one on the M+P 15 and brief y'all on the results.

Posted by: sven10077 at May 22, 2016 01:39 PM (g8Hfr)

102 99 Posted by: pat at May 22, 2016 01:38 PM (4MSOz)

Their wailing on "college rape culture" was in fact a schematic for Obama to increase campus rapes.

Step one create a hysteria

Step two tranny bathroom joy

Step three "MOAR FELONS PLZ!"

Obama wants to replace the rule of law with rule of the jungle.

Posted by: sven10077 at May 22, 2016 01:41 PM (g8Hfr)

103 "93
So colleges and universities are no longer allowed, by federal fiat, to
ask staff or applicants about violent criminal histories.

Ignorance is now required by executive action.

Is it any wonder gun sales are up?

Posted by: MTF at May 22, 2016 01:35 PM (/m8T6)"

There are private investigation firms that will, for a fee, do vetting for a job applicant to confirm that he or she worked at the places claimed on a resume and graduated from the institutions claimed as well. They will generally also check if an applicant has done time.

I predict that these private investigation firms are going to be doing very well.

Posted by: Obnoxious A-Hole at May 22, 2016 01:41 PM (QHgTq)

104 84 Posted by: Jim at May 22, 2016 01:24 PM (McRlu)

Most accurate rifle I ever had was a 96 Swede....I deeply regret letting that rifle go.

Posted by: sven10077 at May 22, 2016 01:42 PM (g8Hfr)

105 PSA has 16" uppers on sale this weekend for $199

rhomboid, what part of #Failifornia are you?

i'm in The Valley, like totally, fer sure!

Posted by: redc1c4 at May 22, 2016 01:43 PM (GnCxR)

106 Fewenuff, thanks for the Desert Marksman tip.

Haven't yet ventured out to the desert for shooting (and the season for that is about to end until November).

So far I'm not aware of any BLM areas out there being closed due to citizen idiocy. But the wrecking/closure of much closer BLM shooting areas, as I whined above, pretty well encapsulates the degradation of our society (at least on this front). Multi-generational shooting areas ruined in less than a decade. And despite valiant, repeated, futile attempts to save them (voluntary clean-ups).

Another factor contributing to alienation from the two-legged things all around us.

Posted by: rhomboid at May 22, 2016 01:43 PM (QDnY+)

107 I predict that these private investigation firms are going to be doing very well.
Posted by: Obnoxious A-Hole at May 22, 2016 01:41 PM (QHgTq)
***
"That's what you think, peasant." - DOJ, Civil Rights Division.

Posted by: Your Decidedly Devious Uncle Palpatine, Still Accepting Harem Applicants at May 22, 2016 01:43 PM (lutOX)

108 red, "America's Finest City". South of you.

Though few seem to recall the origins of that slogan.

I'm still at the stage of pondering lowers to buy, but I'm aware that PSA often has good sales on AR items. On my list for my anticipated gradual accumulation of components for a build or two.

Posted by: rhomboid at May 22, 2016 01:46 PM (QDnY+)

109 Brownells is selling OEM rifles: Completed rifles with no stocks or accessories. You get a stripped gun you can put whatever stuff you want on them.

http://bit.ly/259UhZ0

Posted by: Kristophr at May 22, 2016 01:47 PM (jLXo8)

110
An Observation - yikes. With a mid-range load, overall length should
not matter THAT much, I would think, esp. in 45ACP, a low-pressure
caliber. Is TiteGroup a good powder for 45? (have never used it, too
lazy to go look up the data)

I load mid-range for almost everything, 45 has never made me worry
about over-pressure, overall length is just max for the Springfield
chamber, standard of 1.230 works fine (for my purposes).

TiteGroup is a fine powder for 45s. Very inexpensive - you use very little of it and the powder lists for a little over $20/lb.

One of the things I have learned from using Quick Load is how much seating depth does matter. Pressures on any round can get quickly out of hand if the bullets are too deep in the cartridge because cutting the volume raises the initial burn pressure which causes the powder to burn faster - which raises the pressure etc. It can really snowball.

Posted by: An Observation at May 22, 2016 01:47 PM (SuZ6S)

111
With another LEO being shot and killed this morning in MA, criminals are getting more brazen because of this current administration and the Dept. of non-justice.
Posted by: Barry Sullivan at May 22, 2016 12:18 PM (j0TPo)
=========
On Friday, one was shot and killed in Phoenix.

Posted by: Bruce With a Wang! at May 22, 2016 01:49 PM (iQIUe)

112 "And yes, there is a good chance that online ammo purchases will be
outlawed - by the f***ing cretinous ignorant bigoted voters of the
state, not by the vermin in Sacramento (referendum item)."

Ahnuld der Schtuppenfuhrer, the steroid and weed-addled "Republican" from Hollyweird, as one of his last acts as Governator, enacted a similar facially unconstitutional interstate ammo buying ban. The courts quashed it.

As for how much longer that thin reed can bear the load? No idea.

Posted by: torquewrench at May 22, 2016 01:50 PM (noWW6)

113 Rhomboid: One can swap out the stock, trigger group, bolt, barrel, gas tube MAYBE, and fore stock thingy pretty easily (1hr) on a good U/L combo. Each barrel's gas block should stay with barrel IMHO. However, then you only have 1.5 weapons instead of 2. MOAR is always better when it comes to boom sticks, IMHO. C-:-0

Posted by: Fewenuff at May 22, 2016 01:51 PM (T/sbU)

114 i have an AR lower or 2 that need to be assembled. with uppers at the price they are, at least for now, we'll be buying them, but we have the tools necessary to build one out, so we'll likely give that a go at one point, just because.

also have an DSA FAL reciever that needs to be assembled. unfortunately Entreprise Arms in Azusa, where i was going to get a parts kit, apparently went out of business.

and then there's the two Mauser actions we have...

Posted by: redc1c4 at May 22, 2016 01:52 PM (GnCxR)

115 108 Posted by: rhomboid at May 22, 2016 01:46 PM (QDnY+)

If I were building an AR from bottom up I'd give serious consideration to a drop in Giselle trigger.

Matter of fact if you are looking for the absolute best buy for a reliable accurate enough build might I suggest....

http://www.gunbroker.com/item/559600380

149 bucks

http://tinyurl.com/jkwphku

Palmetto State Armory Complete Carbine upper 299.00

IE an AR needing only a rear sight for ~450 bucks.

Posted by: sven10077 at May 22, 2016 01:53 PM (g8Hfr)

116 NOOD

Posted by: Y-not (@moxiemom) at May 22, 2016 01:53 PM (t5zYU)

117 I have used HP38/W-231 for 45ACP, and a Spanish-sourced equivalent of Universal. Similar burn rate to TiteGroup.

QuickLoads seems like a good program, esp. for those experimenting with rifle loads. So far I have been OK with conservative mid-range loads and ferocious quality control. Always more careful with 9mm (length/pressure dynamic you mention always relevant in that small high-pressure caliber), and now with 30-06.

Posted by: rhomboid at May 22, 2016 01:55 PM (QDnY+)

118 Skip, What ball diameter and patch thickness do you use? Just curious. I've been surprised how consistent my 20 ga. smoothbore has been out to 50 yards with a less than tight ball and patch combo.

Posted by: JTB at May 22, 2016 01:55 PM (V+03K)

119 I don't trust the books for bullet length / seting.

I always check overall length by creating a dummy with no charge and no primer. Barely start the bullet seating, transfer to your gun and chamber. The gun will give you the measurement you need by seating the bullet fully when chambered.

Posted by: garrett loads mainly for Bolt Actions at May 22, 2016 01:57 PM (2q8gu)

120 On the original topic I have seriously considered doing an AR-10 style build with a barrel chambered in .243 Winchester. Since that round is based on the .308 case the AR-10 lower and magazines will handle it easily. The .243 with something like a 105 grain Amax is a much better long range round than a .308; having longer reach and being more accurate at distance. The combo - based on DPMS parts would make a good Semi Auto Precision Rifle (SAPR).

Posted by: An Observation at May 22, 2016 02:00 PM (SuZ6S)

121 My current desire is to put a chambered .360 BP barrel on a .410 break open single barrel shotgun so I can load and shoot black powder .38 specials.

Since my other desires are to design a Spencer to be fabricated from parts cut out on a CNC plasma cutter and formed with a press-break, and finally build that carbine in 7.62x25 you can see that building a black rifle is way down my list.

Unless it is possible to build an AR in 7.62x25?

Posted by: Kindltot at May 22, 2016 02:00 PM (ry34m)

122 I built a flintlock rifle once, and have a couple of barrels awaiting stocks now. One of them is going to be a walnut and iron mounted "black rifle." Does that count?

If I wanted a Ar-15 I would build, I think. Looks fun.

Posted by: Grey Fox at May 22, 2016 02:01 PM (bZ7mE)

123 http://cncgunsparts.com/ar-15_m-16_762x25_uppers

Posted by: sven10077 at May 22, 2016 02:01 PM (g8Hfr)

124 If you are cleaning up old lead for casting, I second the earlier advice to use a cast iron pot and a turkey fryer.

You will also want some lead casting flux, ou will only really need it for the initial melting of the junk lead.

Get an ingot mold to pour the cleaned lead into. Melt the ingots later in whatever lead pot you buy for bullet casting.

Ingot molds and lead casting flux as search terms will find you a bunch of online vendors.

Posted by: Kristophr at May 22, 2016 02:02 PM (jLXo8)

125 Fewenuff, thanks - though I'm a bit confused (and comments section is a poor tool for this problem) .... keeping barrel/gas block together means 1.5 rifles vs. 2? Thought the upper would include separate barrel anyway.

sven, thanks. I hope prices stay like this long enough for me to make my decisions.

torque - yep, but that law was struck down by a state court, on "vagueness" grounds, as you may know, so no constitutional issues were even engaged.

At this point, we're left hanging on the hope that Brown vetoes the AR s**t (likely?), and that, somehow, the ammo referendum item is defeated (dicey - though law enforcement is coming out against it, I believe). An outlier hope is that a greatly skewed turn-out driven by You Know Who on the GOP ticket, combined with law enforcement opposition and popular indifference, will suffice to kill the Newsom initiative.

Yeah, yeah, yeah - I said outlier.

Posted by: rhomboid at May 22, 2016 02:03 PM (QDnY+)

126 Rhomboid: There's a place just south and east of Atolia on 395, on the way to Ridgecrest. Never got the Lat/Lon for it so I can drive there but providing directions not so much.

Then there's a place just past Rosamond west side of the 14, it's a mess, but doable. Rattle Snake Dr or some such off the access road. Kern county sheriff okay'd it.

Posted by: Fewenuff at May 22, 2016 02:06 PM (T/sbU)

127 garrett that's definitely the optimal method for length on bolt actions. But I think the data for overall length is generally OK for handgun calibers.

My universe is different, as I load mostly handgun, and nothing unusual in that category. And for rifle (so far) only load 30-06 for the M1, so that's also easy and standard on length. When I get to reloading 54R some day I imagine I'll follow your approach to bullet seating.

Posted by: rhomboid at May 22, 2016 02:07 PM (QDnY+)

128 I don't trust the books for bullet length / seting.

I always check overall length by creating a dummy with no charge and
no primer. Barely start the bullet seating, transfer to your gun and
chamber. The gun will give you the measurement you need by seating the
bullet fully when chambered.

Posted by: garrett loads mainly for Bolt Actions at May 22, 2016 01:57 PM (2q8gu)
The decreased pressure from having a long COL like that is sort of compensated by the increased starting pressure of having the bullets up against the rifling.

Having a CAD program really saves a lot of time and money experimenting with things that can blow up in your face.

Posted by: An Observation at May 22, 2016 02:11 PM (SuZ6S)

129 Rhomboid: Sorry meant that to be a part of the original description and not the semi-funny have to buy another gun shtick. Just ignore the 1.5 vs 2 lament.

If your U/L is used for 2 platforms, battle and marksman, then at any one time you have 1 weapon and .5 of another. That is what I meant. Oooops

Posted by: Fewenuff at May 22, 2016 02:12 PM (T/sbU)

130 So colleges and universities are no longer allowed, by federal fiat, to

ask staff or applicants about violent criminal histories.

Ignorance is now required by executive action.

Is it any wonder gun sales are up?

Posted by: MTF at May 22, 2016 01:35 PM (/m8T6)

Well, and Accurint search from Lexus-Nexus takes about 15 seconds, and about 20 minutes to read and follow up on elements to make sure they are supported by other facts.
I am not sure how defensible the position that "we knew he had been convicted of multiple assaults and rapes on young women, but we couldn't take that into consideration when hiring a vocal instructor" will be.

Maybe some universities will use "qualified for CHL" or "eligible to purchase a firearm" as a hiring metric?

Posted by: Kindltot at May 22, 2016 02:12 PM (ry34m)

131

Posted by: Kindltot at May 22, 2016 02:13 PM (ry34m)

132 Nice save Kindltot...

yes there are 7.62*25 systems for an AR platform...

Happy Shooting.

Posted by: sven10077 at May 22, 2016 02:14 PM (g8Hfr)

133 Seems to me one should get a better price by building if one uses the cheapest parts but that's not the case.

They seem to have gotten the parts to a set amount and they're not going lower. (jk)

Oh you can make a difference of about a hundred dollars for a low end setup but that's not much different for all the trouble and potential loss of doing an 80% lower.

I would've thought the uppers would be lower than they were and I think that's where the price snag is. Probably only certain outlets for the upper so the price is pretty stable across websites.

I've decided that if I ever want one, I'll just buy and be done with it unless complete uppers come down in price by $50 - $100.

Posted by: Bitter Clinger and All That at May 22, 2016 02:15 PM (Xo1Rt)

134 Fewenuff, thanks.

Don't get up to that part of the valley much, but will still note the info.

And I think I get it on the U/L thing. Two complete uppers, one complete lower (marksman/battle), and I have two rifles, essentially. Obviously part of the appeal of the AR platform to begin with.

To date I have been strictly milsurp when it comes to rifles, so all this black plastic EBR stuff is new territory. And as I noted in my first comment above, part of my motivation now is pre-empting/grandfathering myself/saying f**k you! to CA's festival of idiotic constitution-shredding.

Posted by: rhomboid at May 22, 2016 02:17 PM (QDnY+)

135 Built my first lower, but bought the upper because I could justify the cost of tools plus parts.

My next goal is to build a 9mm SBR, with a can.

Any opinions on barrel length for pistol caliber AR's?

Any reason not to use one of the online services for creating a gun trust?

Posted by: TexasDan at May 22, 2016 02:22 PM (NxUQX)

136 135 Posted by: TexasDan at May 22, 2016 02:22 PM (NxUQX)
Unless you want your firearm to need two tickets to operate in configuration I'd go with the 16" barrel.

The 9mm has diminishing gain for barrel length past 11.5" IIRC, also make sure your 9mm can will work on your 9mm pistol given the ticket is for the can and not the can and weapon singly.

One of the reasons I may break down and get a 5.56 can is to use on .22LR as well.

Posted by: sven10077 at May 22, 2016 02:25 PM (g8Hfr)

137 I got Willowed in the book thread but this goes well here.

Crack That Tank!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=taHFUKKKmJM&feature=youtu.be

Posted by: Anonosaurus Wrecks at May 22, 2016 02:31 PM (Nwg0u)

138 Going to cast my own 75 cal smooth bored bullets the old fashion way. Since I have a good amount of lead that needs to be cleaned thought of a big pot and small dipper. Any helpful hints?

Posted by: Skip at May 22, 2016 12:17 PM (3wHFl)

My father and his fishing buddy used to cast down-rigger weights from scrap lead. I thinks they had a sieve of some sort to skim the dross from the lead. They used an iron melting pot on a white-gas Coleman stove to do the melting. (much less heat in propane Colemans)

Pro-tip: do all your lead melting outdoors, and keep upwind to avoid breathing the fumes. Set up a box fan if you have to. Scrap lead may contain small amounts of bismuth, antimony, and cadmium, some of which are more toxic than lead itself, and lead ain't no slouch in that department. Safe enough if safety precautions are observed.

Posted by: Alberta Oil Peon at May 22, 2016 02:31 PM (KfsMv)

139 >Going to cast my own 75 cal smooth bored bullets the old fashion way. Since I have a good amount of lead that needs to be cleaned thought of a big pot and small dipper. Any helpful hints?

To process range lead into ingots, I use a hot plate and a stainless-steel saucepan...paid less than $25 for both, new. It keeps crud out of my bottom-pour melter (a Lee Pro 4-20) and lets me process maybe 15 lbs. or so of range lead at a time.

I think mine's a 3-quart pot. A larger pot would be pointless, as it'll get too heavy to safely pick up very quickly. Cast iron would be more sturdy, but will be even heavier and will take more time to come up to temperature. You definitely don't want to use aluminum; it'll be too weak at lead-melting temperatures.

The temperature-control knob on the hotplate had a thermostat on it that eventually causes the heating element to cycle on and off, even on the hottest setting. I replaced it with a toggle switch that fits in the same opening.

Posted by: salfter at May 22, 2016 02:36 PM (ok9uv)

140 I have ar15s and ar10s chambered in 5.56 and 308. If I was in the mood to add another ar platform to the vault it would have a 20" SS barrel chambered in 6.5 creedmore. I love my bolt 6.5. 1/2 MOA shooting is the norm with that round.

Posted by: David in ATL at May 22, 2016 02:42 PM (S0oOK)

141 what caliber is The Barrel, Kindltot?

Posted by: redc1c4 at May 22, 2016 02:44 PM (GnCxR)

142 I have ar15s and ar10s chambered in 5.56 and 308. If I was in the mood to add another ar platform to the vault it would have a 20" SS barrel chambered in 6.5 creedmore. I love my bolt 6.5. 1/2 MOA shooting is the norm with that round.
Posted by: David in ATL at May 22, 2016 02:42 PM (S0oOK)

****

Where do you shoot in the area? I live in Kennesaw?

Posted by: ManWithNoParty at May 22, 2016 02:47 PM (6Ke4o)

143 The barrel is a stinky, gooey place, / And one strives, I think, to avoid that embrace

Posted by: Kindltot at May 22, 2016 02:50 PM (ry34m)

144 It's really the best, most concrete, most dramatic side/side thing I can think of when comparing just how degraded standards of behavior have become just in my lifetime, as I saw it before/after.

Posted by: rhomboid at May 22, 2016 12:46 PM (QDnY+)

Last year, I went shooting out into the desert east of Apache Junction with another occasional poster here. We hauled back more trash than we carried out there. Not that hard to do. If all the responsible shooters (and other users of the outdoors) would simply pack some trash bags along, and make a point of picking up a little more trash than they deposit, in the way of lead, targets, etc., the popular shooting places would slowly clean up. I'm not suggesting we clean up the yobs' entire mess, just nibble away at the backlog. And I wouldn't suggest hauling away any guck that is nasty.

Suggestion for the technically-minded Morons. We know what a railgun is, and that it uses induced magnetic fields to accelerate a non-magnetic projectile to very high speeds, indeed. How about a "reverse railgun" made expressly for the purpose of policing up spent brass? Say a 2" PVC pipe, with some coils at the bottom end, and at the top an elbow, with a sack or net to catch the shells picked up. Backpack battery/inverter setup to feed the necessary pulsed current to the coils. Brass has good scrap value, but the stoop labor of picking up loose brass, especially .22 brass, makes collecting it uneconomic. A device like I have imagined would change that, as it would pick up only the brass, and not a lot of dirt and dust, save for what might be in the spent cartridges. Seems to me the first guy to make such a device practical could make out like a bandit at popular remote shooting sites.

Posted by: Alberta Oil Peon at May 22, 2016 02:50 PM (KfsMv)

145 #2 if you take a 1911 apart and have leftover parts on reassembly Congratulations! You've just built a HiPower!

Posted by: Richard McEnroe at May 22, 2016 02:54 PM (s4VUt)

146 LOL @ 145...

was an extra on a Charles Bronson flick for a day or two once, and, as part of my costume, they gave me a Hollywood 1911...

took it apart, couldn't figure out where all the extra parts went, so i shit canned them and gave it back.

what else did they expect from a GI?

Posted by: redc1c4 at May 22, 2016 03:04 PM (GnCxR)

147 @21 CA, spiraling ever downward in idiocy of all kinds, is about to pass laws essentially banning new ARs (that's a simplified bottom line). Gov. Brown, I think, is still likely to veto these, as he has in the past.
----------------------

Hope so. I might finally buy a firearm in the near future. I don't want to have to deal with background checks whenever I buy ammo.

I noted the other day that former State Senator Leland Yee sponsored one of the amendments on the bill that was just passed. That was two years before he got nailed by the Feds for buying weapons (including RPGs) from MILF for resale. Too bad the press won't do its job and point out the hypocrisy of gun grabbers like Yee.

Posted by: junior at May 22, 2016 03:06 PM (+ULUe)

148 There are 2 sizes for choice in 75 cal, I went with .723 ( the smaller) because last time I fired it is had both sizes and after starting with the large it gets harder to get down the barrel. For wadding I have cloth patches, accuracy isn't the goal though. I do want to make a cartridge box and have heavy leather but have only pondered how to do it.

Posted by: Skip at May 22, 2016 03:11 PM (3wHFl)

149 The guy at Dixons muzzle loading where I got the mold agreed when I asked which size I thought and why.

Posted by: Skip at May 22, 2016 03:13 PM (3wHFl)

150 This has been mentioned before, but seemed appropriate given the topic.

There's a free video game - World of Guns - that consists almost entirely of disassembling and reassembling guns (there are also a few shooting gallery sequences, though since they're online instead of real life...). It's more a toy than anything else. But it might be of interest for those who want to see how certain guns are put together.

Posted by: junior at May 22, 2016 03:17 PM (+ULUe)

151 Definitely in the build camp. I've built one lower and several uppers - retro M-16 style, M16A4 style (20" barrel), .300 Blackout carbine, and my current fave, a 9mm carbine.

I'm a little late to the thread because I just had my Best Birthday Ever. The wife took me to the Tilted Kilt for lunch. My first time there, and it was a religious experience. Then it was back home to watch a porno while receiving a BJ.

Yeah, my wife's a keeper.

Posted by: Taro Tsujimoto at May 22, 2016 03:18 PM (/pB9Z)

152
144 AOP

"How about a "reverse railgun" made expressly for the purpose of policing up spent brass? Say a 2" PVC pipe,"

Perhaps a leaf blower, necked down, with the blower hooked up via the intake instead of the exhaust?

Posted by: Arbalest at May 22, 2016 03:20 PM (FlRtG)

153 @130 "eligible to purchase a firearm" as a hiring metric?
-------------------

I'm pretty confident that if the DoJ ever gets wind of that idea, they'll move so fast to try and kill it that your head will spin watching them.

Posted by: junior at May 22, 2016 03:23 PM (+ULUe)

154 53

Pistol holster on the front of an AR might be a bad idea. A fore grip that detaches and serves as an emergency close range pistol makes sense.

Posted by: Headless Body of Agnew at May 22, 2016 03:24 PM (FtrY1)

155 Perhaps a leaf blower, necked down, with the blower hooked up via the intake instead of the exhaust?

Posted by: Arbalest at May 22, 2016 03:20 PM (FlRtG)

I think they call that a "vacuum cleaner", Arb. It would pick up the dust, and sand, and cigarette butts, too. If you could make an electromagnetic pickup work, sorting is built right in.

Posted by: Alberta Oil Peon at May 22, 2016 03:24 PM (KfsMv)

156
Posted by: Alberta Oil Peon at May 22, 2016 02:50 PM (KfsMv)

A lot of guys use a Nut Wizard, which was designed for walnuts.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AI5gCHGZxkI

Posted by: IllTemperedCur at May 22, 2016 03:25 PM (LuZz8)

157 Pistol holster on the front of an AR might be a bad idea. A fore grip that detaches and serves as an emergency close range pistol makes sense.

Posted by: Headless Body of Agnew at May 22, 2016 03:24 PM (FtrY1)

A bracket under the fore part of the AR barrel that consists of a Delrin rod made to slide into the barrel of your pistol of choice, all the way into the chamber, so that, even if the pistol mag is loaded, there is no way the pistol could chamber a round, plus locks and cradles to securely, but gently clamp your pistol to the barrels, so that the pistol becomes the fore grip?

Posted by: Alberta Oil Peon at May 22, 2016 03:31 PM (KfsMv)

158 Build! It's a piece of cake!

Posted by: Bruce1369 at May 22, 2016 03:31 PM (JDEJW)

159 A lot of guys use a Nut Wizard, which was designed for walnuts.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AI5gCHGZxkI

Posted by: IllTemperedCur at May 22, 2016 03:25 PM (LuZz

Looks like it would do a fine job of picking up gravel, too.

Posted by: Alberta Oil Peon at May 22, 2016 03:34 PM (KfsMv)

160 AOP, your idea of "take out more than you find there already" is obviously a solid one, and actually might suffice for some areas/levels of misbehavior by the idiots.

But I'm talking about areas that have been trouble-free shooting spots for decades that, almost over-night, became junkyards. Washers/dryers, TVs, computer screens, frigs. Glass and parts everywhere.

One local place that shooters tried very hard (in vain) to save required several 40-foot container loads of heavy, serious crap - not "trash". And that was just the first two sessions. Just infuriating, and amazing. Like most everything else in what was formerly America, lately.

Some are talking with local Indian reservations that have large areas to set up pay-to-play or membership shooting areas, that would be treated normally (i.e., leaving little evidence they are used for anything at all). For now, it's Top Secret Codeword Eyes Only No-Foreign Burn After Reading Ultra info on unspoiled shooting spots on BLM land not closed to shooting - most of which require 4-wheel D for access, or private land, or the desert.

Posted by: rhomboid at May 22, 2016 03:35 PM (QDnY+)

161 Range where I RO uses those nut-gathering rollers. They work quite well for most brass. Magnets on rollers for steel cases.

Which reminds me. Another jaw-dropping, are-you-kidding-me bit of idiocy brought to you by the farce that was formerly the United States - OSHA does not permit use of brooms at the range.

You see - you science-hating denialist haters - broom action will stir up lead dust, causing obvious health risks to all concerned.

Which - in every respect - is an absurd notion that would not survive even rudimentary technical examination. We're talking outdoor ranges. Windy (main problem at this place is afternoon winds making target-setting infeasible).

It's small, and academic, consolation that every guest/member shooter who asks for a broom to clean up around their station reacts with amazement - skepticism, then disgust - when this is explained to them. But intelligent, non-bigoted, non-ignorant, non-brainwashed adults are now an endangered and (obviously) increasingly powerless minority in the US.

Posted by: rhomboid at May 22, 2016 03:41 PM (QDnY+)

162 worked part time in a Schwinn shop in 60's .Every wheel on a new bike needed major truing. After 50 bikes you can do it quickly. getting paid $3 a bike. Peugeots came from factory true.

Posted by: toms at May 22, 2016 03:43 PM (nZ0k3)

163 Both!!

Posted by: fu52 at May 22, 2016 03:46 PM (2BPK0)

164 "121
My current desire is to put a chambered .360 BP barrel on a .410 break
open single barrel shotgun so I can load and shoot black powder .38
specials.

Since my other desires are to design a Spencer to be
fabricated from parts cut out on a CNC plasma cutter and formed with a
press-break, and finally build that carbine in 7.62x25 you can see that
building a black rifle is way down my list.

Unless it is possible to build an AR in 7.62x25?

Posted by: Kindltot at May 22, 2016 02:00 PM (ry34m)"

You have some strange desires, Kindltot. I am intrigued.

The odd gun type thing that I have been thinking about recently would be to load Snyder Conversions type cartridges for various straight walled cartridges. The place to start might be with paper .410 shotgun shells cut down and loaded for .45 long Colt. The thing is that the Snyder conversion used a metal piece shaped sort of like a top hat with the diameter of the cylinder equal to the diameter of the bullet and the diameter of the brim equal to the rim diameter. To form the tube, a dowel of the correct diameter was put in contact with the cylinder of the metal base and kraft paper was wrapped around with enough turns to withstand the pressure and a bit of glue to hold the edge down. The Snyder cartridges used a metal clamp to secure the paper to the base but I think that wire wrappings would work. The Snyder cartridges used cast iron base pieces but I wonder if pot metal zamac zinc alloy would be adequate. Zinc has a low enough melting point that it can be melted in setups that are generally used to melt lead bullets. There is plenty of scrap pot metal around if you look for it.

These cartridges probably would not work in most repeating firearms but they would probably do OK in revolvers.

From the descriptions I am reading here, they might be something for Morons in California to think about.

Posted by: Obnoxious A-Hole at May 22, 2016 04:08 PM (QHgTq)

165 no one's told our local ranges not to use brooms...

yet.

Posted by: redc1c4 at May 22, 2016 04:20 PM (GnCxR)

166 One local place that shooters tried very hard (in vain) to save required several 40-foot container loads of heavy, serious crap - not "trash". And that was just the first two sessions. Just infuriating, and amazing. Like most everything else in what was formerly America, lately.

Some are talking with local Indian reservations that have large areas to set up pay-to-play or membership shooting areas, that would be treated normally (i.e., leaving little evidence they are used for anything at all). For now, it's Top Secret Codeword Eyes Only No-Foreign Burn After Reading Ultra info on unspoiled shooting spots on BLM land not closed to shooting - most of which require 4-wheel D for access, or private land, or the desert.

Posted by: rhomboid at May 22, 2016 03:35 PM (QDnY+)

Got shut down by an ISP hiccup. What do you bet most of that illegal dumping is perpetrated by illegal aliens?

In the name of "saving the Earth", Democrats pass any number of stupid rules that result in high fees to legally dispose of appliances, like refrigerators that contain eeeevil refrigerants. Illegals aliens, protected from having to comply with any laws, offer to pick up and haul away dead appliances for cheap, much cheaper than anyone who has to comply with the law can do. Profit! Profit for the politically-connected scrappers and disposal sites who fleece the sheeple who comply with the law, profit for the illegal aliens (clients of the Left), who service those who don't comply.

Next step: illegal aliens illegally dump their trash on Forest Service or BLM land, creating big mess. Government (unionized) workers, or politically-connected (unionized) contractors clean up mess, doing it slowly and methodically, by the book, and very expensively, taxpayers pay. Profit! Citing the nasty messes found on Federal land, get Federal lands closed to normal citizens, which is what they wanted, anyway. Illegal aliens continue to dump, since laws don't apply to them. Profit!

Follow the money!

Sounds like it might be instructive to set up some trail cams at known dumping hotspots, and post Youtubes of illegal aliens trashing America.

Posted by: Alberta Oil Peon at May 22, 2016 04:21 PM (60Q+L)

167 Build

akfiles.com

Posted by: houndofdoom at May 22, 2016 04:22 PM (SsRfS)

168 "Unless it is possible to build an AR in 7.62x25?"

Should be. The Tokarev cartridge is close to a 7.63 Mauser, which is close to a 7.62 Luger, which the 9mm is based on. That would be a flat-shooting sweetheart, I would think. I guess it all depends on if someone makes a barrel.

Posted by: Taro Tsujimoto at May 22, 2016 04:22 PM (/pB9Z)

169 Would it be possible to build an AR-15 type rifle that doesn't look like something out of a video game? Say more like the M1 carbine?

Posted by: Alberta Oil Peon at May 22, 2016 04:25 PM (60Q+L)

170 168 Posted by: Taro Tsujimoto at May 22, 2016 04:22 PM (/pB9Z)

http://cncgunsparts.com/ar-15_m-16_762x25_uppers

169 Posted by: Alberta Oil Peon at May 22, 2016 04:25 PM (60Q+L)

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2016/03/18/inside-ingram-sam-gunlab/

Posted by: sven10077 at May 22, 2016 04:33 PM (g8Hfr)

171 Shoots 5.56

Looks like a carbine

http://www.ruger.com/products/mini14RanchRifle/models.html

Posted by: Village Idiot's Apprentice at May 22, 2016 04:34 PM (ptqRm)

172 AR-15 looking more like an M-1 carbine

Posted by: sven10077 at May 22, 2016 04:36 PM (g8Hfr)

173 171 Posted by: Village Idiot's Apprentice at May 22, 2016 04:34 PM (ptqRm)

Yeah sadly no STANAG Mags unless you get the AR-5.56 or SR-5.56

Posted by: sven10077 at May 22, 2016 04:37 PM (g8Hfr)

174
Where do you shoot in the area? I live in Kennesaw?

Posted by:�ManWithNoParty�at May 22, 2016 02:47 PM

Checkout South River GC. 11 skeet ranges, over 15 shooting pits, 100/200/300 yd rifle ranges.

Cool Acres in se Ga has a 1000 yd range.

Posted by: David in ATL at May 22, 2016 04:37 PM (S0oOK)

175

Unless it is possible to build an AR in 7.62x25?

Check Gunbroker dot com for "PPSh".

Barrels, magazines, flame-cut receivers (and repair kits) are available. The end result is not an AR-15, or something adaptable to an AR-15 lower, but that isn't the point.

Posted by: Arbalest at May 22, 2016 04:38 PM (FlRtG)

176 A lot of guys use a Nut Wizard

Ah, my sorority nic. Good times.

Posted by: Sandra Flook at May 22, 2016 04:52 PM (Tyii7)

177 I don't know what I'd do without my Nut Wizard.

Posted by: Reggie Love at May 22, 2016 05:03 PM (eHpnh)

178
3 "That taught me pretty much everything I needed to know, except for how to true wheels. That is dark magic and cannot be learned by mortals."

True dat

Yes, ISWIDT

Posted by: Krebs v Carnot: Epic Battle of the Cycling Stars (TM) at May 22, 2016 05:41 PM (BK3ZS)

179 Problem with building them- like building your own computer it can be addictive.

Built a few based on 80% lowers, I find aluminum easier to work with than plastic. I used a jig for the aluminum that only required a hand-held drill and hand-held router. Just like computers I learned an awful lot about different specifications as they related to what I wanted to do with the rifles and pistol. (Single stage or dual stage trigger, adjustable or non-adjustable? What twist? What barrel length? What chambering (CLE, WOA, Rem .223, 6.5 Grendel, .300 blackout/whisper/AAC)?)

Working on a polymer80 SPECTRE pistol at the moment...

Posted by: Styrgwillidar at May 22, 2016 06:02 PM (WYk42)

180 When I decided to buy one I looked for manufacturers that had models with the features I wanted; there were three, all at about the same price.

My FFL dealer was able to get a better deal from one of the three, so we went with them--and I have not been disappointed. I ended up with one that had features that I hadn't even included in my criteria but would've chosen if I'd thought of them.

And disassembly/reassembly is pretty much like I'd remembered from Basic Training, save for the lack of triangular handguards....

Posted by: DavidD at May 22, 2016 06:37 PM (xbnMZ)

181 I'm thinking AR-10 (.308 x 7.62). I like a bit of punch. Got one at Academy, DPMS Sportical bare, for $719.95. Good enough for my purposes.

Posted by: Javems at May 22, 2016 07:11 PM (yOqwj)

182 181 Posted by: Javems at May 22, 2016 07:11 PM (yOqwj)

You saved yourself a 1000 bucks as compared to getting an M-1A....

good job.

Posted by: sven10077 at May 22, 2016 07:33 PM (g8Hfr)

183 I love to take things apart and then reassemble them.
What to do with the leftover parts?
Posted by: navybrat
----------

--The First Rule of Tinkering--

Keep All of The Parts

Posted by: Mike Hammer, etc., etc. at May 22, 2016 09:18 PM (ZxmMG)

184 Building an AR from parts is like playing with legos. Pretty easy. Its a great place to start.

Now if you machine an 80% lower to get that done that is what I would consider a 'threshold" build.

Those that can do that without screwing it up, may be ready to bend some flats and home roll some AK's.

When you get good at that, you can try this on for size......

http://tinyurl.com/jb4pvsd

Now that's a build (almost from scratch).

Building is all about baby steps. You just gotta take the first one and keep on stepping.

Posted by: The Walking Dude at May 22, 2016 09:52 PM (iL4Z8)

185 Hubby likes to build them. That way he can get more accessories and play with it. Giant, expensive, *&^%#$ tinkertoy. Heaven forbid we actually shoot it.

Posted by: C Laczko at May 23, 2016 04:56 PM (phMd+)

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